963 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fd79f3a42b80b163012ce9af72c0643.mp4 3ef4b44d77cb66a1b3a556ae5e1aa501 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d466a4826d54deafe6f3032ecc42eec8.pdf d9f9aa41ac8efd6f78dba6ee36c1b405 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Joyce Hill Westerman Length of Interview: (54:24) Date of Interview: August 7, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, November 9, 2010 Interviewer: “The date is August 7, 2010. We are at Detroit Michigan at the reunion of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. We are talking today with Joyce Hill Westerman and the interviewer is James Smither of Grand Valley State’s Veterans History Project. Now Joyce, can you start with a little bit of background about yourself? Let’s begin with where and when were you born?” (00:51) I was born in on December 29, 1925. I might add that I lived through the depression. I mean, to me it wasn’t a big deal but to my parents it was a big deal. My father lost himself in the depression so I was in 6th grade, no 1st grade in the city, I was 6 years old and I went one year to school there and then we moved out of the county. My uncle had rented some land and there was an old house on this land and half of it was falling down and we lived in 4 rooms and I had 4 sisters and or 3 sisters and 4 brothers and my mom and dad and we lived in that little house that was not much. We did not have any running water, we did not have any electricity, and we had a potbelly stove to heat the house. We had to carry the water in from the water tank and also to take a shower we had to heat the water over the fire and stuff like that. Well I was a little bit of a tom boy and I played a little ball in Kenosha in school (02:00) and I used to be embarrassed at first to go up and hit because I hit better than most of the kids. And I started playing ball when I was about 5___ pounds so I played next door, but when we moved in to the county it was a whole different story. So I played mostly with all my brothers and sisters and stuff, and it was really a good thing for my parents because for us kids we loved it. We were out in the county and we could run, we had a big garden and I think that’s how we survived really, on the garden and so forth. Then as I grew up we went to a one room school with one teacher, actually the teacher taught my mother, she graduated from that school and I graduated from that school with the same teacher, from 8th grade from that school. So that in itself was an experience. I had played a lot of ball in school and stuff but then as I grew up and I graduated from my school when I was 17, and you couldn’t get a job until you were 18, now they didn’t have any (03:00) competitive sports to speak of in high school and junior high school but I did manage to go into the city and visit my aunt one night a week so I could play sports at the junior high school. Well then, after high school of course I finally, by the time I was 18 I got a job at the American Motors, they were making airplanes. Well we did have kind of a scrub team from the national holders (?). And that was the extent of pretty much of my baseball experience except with playing with my brothers and sisters in school and stuff like that. So anyway then in 1944 that was the first time that I got to see the Comets who were one of the regular teams of the league. And it was really �funny because they had a bunch of injuries on the team and they had called somebody. Who? I don’t know. But anyway they picked two girls from Kenosha to try to fill in. (04:00) Well luckily I was one of them and got to start with Hugh Rights a friend of mine who was a ball player. Well I got a uniform and everything for that series and all I did was get up and pitch some runs and I fouled the ball and I could…I thought oh my heavens it’s girl’s baseball. What a dream this would be? You know, always wanting to play professional ball and you know being a Cub fan it was the big thing you know, so anyway it was really funny because living on the farm and so forth by that time we had moved on to my grandmother’s farm and lived upstairs by the time I was in junior high school so we had all the conveniences then but my Dad still didn’t have the money where I could run back and forth from Kenosha to play ball and stuff like that. So anyway I tried out and like I said I got up a hit and fouled the ball and that was wonderful because they were so (05:00) fast that I couldn’t see the ball anyway in my estimation. And I tried out, they had try outs that fall in Kenosha and it was about 50 girls so I tried out there and I made the try outs and then the following week they had try outs where they were seeing and some of the girls went there and it was another I think another 50 girls there and I tried out there and there were only 2 of us girls out of all those kids that made the cut to go spring training. Like I said I was working at American Motors or National Motors at that time, I was making a dollar an hour and so forth and you know after that I went to spring training, and then I found out that I made the cut and I would be going to Grand Rapids. Well I signed a contract like $55 a week. Well my dad was making $40 in the plant you know at that time and I thought “Oh wow, I’m going to be making more than my dad,” and you know they weren’t sports people. (06:00) But my mother, they didn’t say I couldn’t play or anything and it wasn’t you know something like that but I think they knew how much I loved baseball you know, so anyway it was a little scary for me in spring training because I had to take the train heck I had never been out of Kenosha hardly you know, so I got on that train and got to Chicago. I made it through someway I don’t remember how, but I got there. And like I said, I made the cut. My first year I went to Grand Rapids and it was really cool, I had a lot to learn. Not having, I mean I had the ability but I didn’t have the experience I had a lot to learn and of course when I went to Grand Rapids Mickey Maguire was the captain at the time, and I was the catcher at that time and I didn’t get played too often but I learned a lot from her. She was a competitive let me tell you, she was but that was a really wonderful experience to be behind her. And I did, one time I was catching (07:00) and I did catch my finger. The first knuckle was lying on the back of the second knuckle and doctor came down and pulled it back into place you know and stuff like that. Anyway from then, I went to went to South Bend the following year and then I went on and played for 8 total years so, it was a wonderful experience. You meet so many wonderful gals you know that you get very close. (07:32) Interviewer: “Ok, that’s a really good overview or starting point here. Now I’m going to back us up a little bit.” Ok. Interviewer: “And have you fill in a few more pieces of this process. Why don’t you, the other thing I’m not quite getting out of your stories, where did you go to high school?” �Oh, I went to a Kenosha high school in Kenosha. Interviewer: “So you were able to go into Kenosha at least at that point?” Yeah, yeah. Actually we had to get up early in the morning and ride in when my dad went to work (08:00). Way before any other school started, and we stayed about oh half a mile or so from it and he would take us into high school as well. We would get up and in the morning go in with my Dad in the morning and stay up at my aunt’s until it was time to go to school, and then walk to school. Interviewer: “Ok, and the school, did they have were there any kind of sports there, or gym class or anything like that?” The school wasn’t didn’t have anything. Interviewer: “Nothing at all.” No, like I said junior high school had gym once a week, I mean we had gym but nothing after school. Interviewer: “Ok. And the Comets were a pioneer team and they would’ve been in Kenosha in 1943.” Yes. Interviewer: “Did you go watch them play?” No. I didn’t watch them, and I didn’t even remember seeing them. We didn’t get the paper, you know. And it was just all new to me I heard about them, but not a whole lot you know. And so no, when they called for me to come into their try out I was surprised I was brave enough to do it. I was pretty shy at that time. (09:06) Interviewer: “At that time, alright. And then, when you are doing the try outs, what did they actually make you do?” At the try out? Well we had to bat, and hit and then field you know you caught during the try outs, and stuff like that. But we didn’t do a lot of exercises and stuff it was mostly batting and catching and stuff like that you know. Mainly if you are a catcher they had you back there catching but that was pretty much, we didn’t do many exercises or anything like that so 50 girls you know so hit around with all of them. Interviewer: “Alright, don’t catchers have a lot sort of to learn about how to call a game and that kind of thing? Now you hadn’t played a lot of organized ball.” �Right, and you know the reason that I did that was because I thought well I think there is one position that they might need more than anybody else and it would be catching. And I thought well I can do that. (10:00) I can throw a little pitch you know and I thought, well that’s something I can do so that’s why I tried out for there, I thought that was my best chance. I was, I was probably a little chunkier at that time and that was another thing, I wasn’t one of the real fast girls that run and stuff like that and I thought, I think that’s my best chance. So that was why I tried out and I did hard too, you know. And that’s why I said being out batting late it helped. Interviewer: “Alright, and then, tell me a little bit more about how the spring training worked. There actually still doing that at Wrigley Field there was the first couple seasons they, what’s the process there? Now the people that come there, are they already signed into the league? Or are they still eliminating people? Well some of them were were, I mean they had been they had been there for 2 years. So a lot of them were regulars, but then us rookies had to fill in for the regulars you know, and that was put you know in a hard spot there (11:00) because they were so good and we were just so inexperienced and trying so hard you know. But we did all kinds of exercises and stuff. Being to the farm I worked on the farm and I did just about anything you could do on a farm. Milked the cows you know, but I, you know I was in pretty good shape even though I was a little bit heavier. And I, so it didn’t really bother me, the exercises and stuff. But still, at the end of the day you it would almost like you could crawl back to the hotel you know, so and it was after the exercise it was bad and the usual, much like the men’s you know. Interviewer: “Ok, and then how do you find out how you made the cut and you are assigned to a team? What happens?” Well, there, well I can’t remember exactly but I know they read it off or we, I can’t remember if we read something or, they just notified us and I don’t remember exactly how. Interviewer: “Ok, so what was your response when you found out that you had sort of made it?” (12:01) I was elated. I hadn’t quit my job or anything; I had to taken a leave of absence. So I went back and I had to quit my job and stuff, before I started playing ball. Interviewer: “Alright, now this is still fairly early in the history of the league. How much of the rules and regulations and etiquette training and all of that kind of stuff, when they teach you how to behave and so forth, how much of that was still in place when you started?” Well when I was there in 45, I did not go to charm school. Now the gal that went with me said that she did. So I don’t know how I got out of that, but somehow I missed that. So they must �have had it in 1945, but I think that was the last year because the following year it wasn’t in effect. And we thought it was ridiculous to put on eye shadow and lipstick and put on our masks and then go out and catch, you know? Play any position and you are perspiring (13:00) it’s bad enough the way it is, all of that gear on you and stuff. But I knew the girls had to keep their hair short and keep it curled. And anyway, down down to your neck there and so forth. And I wasn’t much, I always had really short hair, much as I do now as I grew up. Then of course I had to learn to curl my hair so it would look nice and then you would go out to practice in the morning and you had your hair curled and when you come home it wasn’t curled, you’d curl it up again, and I got so tired of curling my hair that after I was out of baseball it didn’t take me long to have straight hair. Interviewer: “Alright, and they had the dress code regulations? The skirts and…” Yeah, yeah. No slacks, and things like that. And we would go on the bus and if you had to have a potty break or something you would put your skirt over your slacks or take them off and if you had shorts on you know you would have to cover them up (14:00). But one thing that I didn’t like and I heard about the Comets and so forth was the skirts. I thought oh my god I couldn’t show my legs, and I came from a town that was very modest and so that was hard, that was something I thought I couldn’t do that. But once I played in the, the one series I thought well I guess I could wear these uniforms. I never knew what to do people. Interviewer: “Alright, now you were not too much of a runner so you didn’t get as many strawberries as some of them did?” Right, I got my share. But you know, they would send me, there would be a shock to the pitcher, I would make second base but yeah, you get your share. But I didn’t steal like a lot of the girls. Interviewer: “Alright, tell me a little bit more about that first season in Grand Rapids as sort of a learning experience for you, you are the backup catcher. What kind of accommodations did you have? Where did you stay when you were up there?” (15:05) We stayed with private families. And that was real nice you know, but we didn’t always have transportation so it was like you had to take a bus or take a car. I didn’t have a car until 1948 so that was a little difficult you know. Getting there in the morning for practice and then go home and shower and so forth and go back and get ready for the game at night that was kind of a bummer but you know it all worked out but… Interviewer: “About how far from the field were you living from do you think?” I don’t think I can remember. Interviewer: “Were they playing at Southfield at that point?” �Yeah. Interviewer: “Ok, so that’s still in town right?” Yeah Interviewer: “Rather than Bigelow field which they played at later. Alright. Ok, and then what was it like going on the road with the team?” Well that was really super, I mean you know, at first when we went to spring training and from there we went to Grand Rapids we took trains and that was really a bummer (16:01) because we had to get on a train and it was it was one of those old fire trains and you would get all dirty and then you always had a layover in in in Chicago and you wanted to go enjoy the scenery and everything when you went back and forth, and we spent a lot of time you know, just getting back and forth and it was during the war too and you know if if there was military men on the train you were supposed to stand up and let them have the seats but of course the guys were always so nice they always let you sit down which was very nice. So when they got the buses we were just elated by that time I mean oh my goodness. To just hop on a bus you know was wonderful. Interviewer: “That first season in Grand Rapids you were still riding trains most of the time?” Yup, yup. Interviewer: “Alright, and then how much supervision did you have? How much supervision did you have? How much did they look after you or regulate what you did?” (17:00) Well if you had a sore arm or any kind of bangs or bruises or anything you know, they would take care of you. I know when I have a picture of I was in, we were we were practicing on some field I don’t know where it was. Whether it was spring training, I think it was part of spring training. And I had, I was playing in the offense catching flies and stuff. And I had stepped and sprained my ankle really bad. So the chaperone came out there of course and took care of me. And we had to put ice on it and all that stuff. Well then she said well you have to use heat. Well evidently I must have been able to stand a lot of heat or something because I burned my ankle something fierce and I had to heat it and it was going to make it well in a hurry you know and so that wasn’t too pleasant. But had our share of, you know got spiked several times and stuff like that. So they were wonderful really. But my first year I might add that I was so shy I don’t know if I said 3 words the whole year. I’d listen and I didn’t ever have much to say you know, and I kind of got over that but it took awhile. You know because I was just a _ you know. (18:13) �Interviewer: “Ok, ok you got to the end of that first season. Now, did they tell you that they wanted you to come back or what?” No, I was just went home and when they wrote in the spring training you know I went to South Bend. Interviewer: “Alright” And that was fine. It didn’t bother me. The only time it bothered me was when I was with some, I had met some wonderful, really close friends. We lived in, we lived in a house and a lady went away for the winter and she let us stay in her house. It was 4 of us there and we got to be so close you know. Well we were going on a road trip and we were loading up on the bus actually and they called me over and told me it was I was traded to Racine (19:03). And at that time I thought Racine was one of the better teams and I thought oh gosh you know, how will be accepted in a team like that that won a championship? You know and stuff and I was kind of worried. And I cried a lot, and I hadn’t before ever ever cried, couldn’t. And at that time I had a car so I had to drive wherever it was to be the Racines so that was a bummer right before the bus left to go somewhere and then told that you had been traded you know, so. But after that it didn’t bother me. Interviewer: “Alright, after your first season did you get more regular playing time as catcher?” Yeah, probably, well yeah probably even the second year I was behind Bonnie Baker as catcher and it took a couple of years or so before I got to being got more playing time (20:04) you know, but you got wait your turn you know. And you know I always thought a lot of the girls have so much experience of course they had teams out there that played a lot so I just waited it out. So I just kept trying and working and catching a lot batting practice. So… Interviewer: “K, did you get to pitch hit or come into the games?” Oh yeah I would a lot of times. I was a pretty good hitter. And yeah I did pitch you know, I’d get my chances if we were ahead they put me in so I would get the experience and yeah that never bothered me. I was just there and I was playing you know, and hung in there. Interviewer: “Now you played with a number of different teams. Who do you think were the best pitchers that you got to catch?” Well the underhand pitchers was Connie Wisniewski (21:01) she was terrific. She was really fine. Jo Kabick was on the team and was an underhand pitcher and she was fast, she was a really good pitcher. Then, then later on when we went overhand I admired Jean Faut she was a great pitcher and you know it was funny because I could hit Jeannie like nothing for some reason and it used to get to Jeannie and she said she told them one time that it didn’t matter what she pitched I would get a hit you know. But she was a great pitcher. �Interviewer: “Alright, when you were catching her, who called the pitches? Did she decide pretty much what to pitch, or did you just know?” I called the pitches pretty much, when she was there. And we just got along so good and I think it was Dottie Mueller that she pitched a golden game one time and I got her and you know I did call the pitches (22:00). I used to sit in the dug-out you know when the other team was warming up and stuff like that and I would watch the hitters, where they hit the ball and how they hit the ball you know and kind of study them so I would kind of know where not to pitch them you know. Interviewer: “So it may be that you and Jean were pretty much on the same page.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Because when I interviewed her, she was pretty sure that she was picking most of her own pitches.” Well you know, she shakes it off and maybe she did, you know it’s been a long time. But I know for the most part I… Interviewer: “Right, but you and she did essentially the same thing. Which was to study the hitters and then to get it so you got that together.” Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “Now, one of the things about the league was there were certain women who were really good base stealers. And, were you, how successful were you at keeping them under control?” I’ll tell you what to be honest I wasn’t the best catcher to pick off people (23:00). Now I had this thing when I was in Grand Rapids, I used to throw a little bit more side arm and I had a much better arm. Well when I got there they said oh, you go to learn how to throw overhand like this. So I got so that I practiced, I did have a good sore arm from doing it in Grand Rapids my first year, but I got the hang of it. But what it did was made me conscious of I had to bring my arm up to throw the ball and I lost the timing of it and I just couldn’t overcome that so I wasn’t the best in my mind I was always you know am I going to do this right?, or something you know and it probably, I wasn’t the best catcher to pick off people. I was good at something but just to be honest. Interviewer: “Now once you got to be playing fairly regularly, were you a pretty consistent hitter?” Yeah, yeah. I was a pretty good hitter considering the batting averages that we have you know the girls. I was right up there, not real close to the top but my last year in South Bend was my best year around 77 so… �(24:12) Interviewer: “Now would you get extra base hits, would you get doubles and triples?” Yeah. I never hit a home run. I can’t believe that because I was so slow. That would mean that I would have to hit it over the fence and we didn’t have that many fences. We did in South Bend but we didn’t in Grand Rapids. And I could do it in practice but I never did it in a game. Interviewer: “Alright, now you were, what was the total length of time you were playing? You started in really in ’45 in terms of full seasons and… ” ’52, eight years. Interviewer: “Okay, that’s a good chunk of time in there and a lot of different things went on in the league at that time. One of the things was that you kept moving spring training around.” Right. Interviewer: “Your first spring training was Wrigley field.” (25:00) That’s right. Interviewer: “Where did you go in later years?” Oh gosh. We were in Mississippi, Indiana. We went to Florida. And I don’t know, so many places I can’t remember all of them. Interviewer: “Did you make the trip to Cuba?” Yes I did. Interviewer: “Alright” That was quite a thing. My first airplane ride and first of everything and that was a lot of fun. I mean, but I wasn’t too crazy about the food over there. So I ordered some leche, that’s milk and at lunch time they would have ham sandwiches and stuff, American you know, milk…and I kind of liked that. And they had fried bananas and powdered eggs and stuff that I didn’t eat… Interviewer: “Alright, now how was playing in Cuba different than playing in the states?” Well actually it was very much the same. Interviewer: “Well I’m thinking in terms of the fans and the atmosphere.” �Well the fans, yeah yeah. They were something else. Actually we knew more people over there than we did in America so that was really interesting (26:00). So being in a hotel at that walking on the streets you have to be with somebody at the time. And we had a curfew. And we couldn’t go out of the hotel you know, because it was too dangerous. But anyway it was kind of comical we had, I have a picture of it, we had we had the long rope had been hung from the 3rd floor and it had a basket on it and we would lower that and the guys down stairs would go and get us some cokes you know and we would pull it up and I got a picture of that you know. But my daughter brought them up when she was here some of them, I remember that you know and sloppy joes. I have pictures of course. I have a lot of pictures. Interviewer: “And what sloppy joes?” Well it was, they use a lot of their drink, what is it? Rum, they had a lot of rum and stuff, but I wasn’t a drinker so I had coke, never was one to… I have never had a drink in my life. (27:00) Interviewer: “Alright, then what did you remember about Pascagoula? What was that like?” I remember going into the barracks when we were at an army base and opening the door and turn on a light and cockroaches running everywhere you know. And we used to call it Cockroach Boulevard and it was something else you know, it was something else. We slept with the lights on but that was something else. But our managers at that time when they saw the situation they came back with this, I forget what kind of fish that was red...no that’s not it. Interviewer: “River snapper?” Yeah, something like that. And they cooked it outside on a fire pit and that was the best fish I’ve ever…that was good. Interviewer: “Now when you came back from Pascagoula did you just go to your individual teams or did you stop and play along the way?” (28:04) We paired off with another team and then we would stop at various places. They had a book and we would play at exhibitions. Gave us the practice to play with teams and people could see what kind of ball we played and in many places the people there were so great you know. That one place, I think it was North Carolina a guy took us out on a cruise it was so nice, a nice man you know took us out on like on a boat and we went on a cruise and stuff like that. But they always wanted us in parades and stuff like that. You know, it was, it was fun. We would kind of laugh amongst ourselves, we’re not nothing you know we’re just ball players you know. But it was a great experience. �Interviewer: “Now were you with the group that played at Griffins Stadium in Washington and then when up into Yankee stadium? You didn’t do that part?” (29:00) I wished I had, but no. Interviewer: “Ok, so what parts of the country did you tour through then, because you were in the south?” Through the south North Carolina, South Carolina, or Virginia or whatever…Mississippi. Interviewer: “Ok, did you have one season that you thought was probably sort of your best season or your most successful one, or either individually or as a team?” Well I don’t know. Yeah I guess you know as far as the friendships and stuff that was one thing, but of course I was fairly happy with my last year when we won the championship because I had never won a championship before, but then in ’52 we won a championship then and that was just an amazing you know. Although at that time you know I had been married for 2 years and after a game I would go right home you know. I didn’t participate with the girls a lot and stuff. So I probably wasn’t as close to them as I was with some of the other teams before. (30:06) Interviewer: “Now were you still catching at that time or had you changed positions?” No, at that time I was playing at first base. I played the last two years. Interviewer: “Now would you rather have kept catching or was it better at first?” Well I like catching better but first base was ok too. Interviewer: “Why did they shift you out from catcher?” I don’t know. Maybe because, maybe because I didn’t throw well enough. Interviewer: “Alright, well let’s see what was it? Well I guess when you had been growing up and had been playing you would play anyplace, well first base you got to field grounders and that kind of thing…” Oh yeah, we’d play short stop or play the outfield you know. A few times I played the outfield sometimes they would just stick me in so I could play. I was a pretty good hitter so they would put me in and I liked that. �Interviewer: “Ok, well you mentioned that you got married during your career, which was a little bit unusual. Tell us a little bit about that, how did you wind up getting married? And what, how, what happened after that?” (31:04) Well yeah, well I had been going with my husband for about, I probably met him about a year or two into when I was playing ball. And he used to come to Peoria and places to see me play and stuff like that. And then of course then when I would go home we liked to dance and we would go to a lot of dances every Saturday night and stuff. And then finally he in ’50 we got married so I was playing in Racine, well no I wasn’t but anyway a bunch of the girls from the Racine girls came to the wedding and it was real fun we had a big wedding. So we had been building our own house before we were married because I said my parents lost their house and I saw what they went through and I always said if I’m going to get married I’m going to have a house. So my husband and I, he hadn’t done much building, (32:00) he had some cows and stuff but he hadn’t done much building. But I had worked on the farm. I had shingled roofs and I had made cement block. My Dad was always going to build a house and he never got to it but I would make cement blocks by myself you know. So I had more experience. And we bought a place you know and we did all, we built the house ourselves and we did all the cement work. I mixed it with an electric mixer I mixed all the cement and Ray would install it. And I ended up bricking the whole house and we had a very very nice house. We had hardwood floors. We did have, my uncle was a carpenter so we did have him that was quite a job in itself you know. Ray learned and did the electrical and the plumbing and I was right there to help with whatever, I helped with the roof and putting in the cement floors. So we built part, we built 4 rooms and it was like a little doll house. It was really cute, all we needed was utility you know. And then we added on 5 rooms and we didn’t move in until it was done and we did have it plastered. We did all the dry wall but we did get it plastered. (33:14) Interviewer: “At the beginning of that you mentioned that you had a book on how to build a house?” Yes, how to build a house. Interviewer: “Alright, and you just followed that.” Yes. Interviewer: “How did you pay for it?” Well I was working then again at that time American Motors. When I left South Bend, people from the South Bend from the dealership there got me a job again back in American Motors. So when I went back I had a job. So I worked there for several years and we were paid for it as we �went along. Because we didn’t have much money and they wouldn’t give you a loan. So then we paid for it as we went along. And we never owed a penny on our house. Interviewer: “Were you able to save any money from when you were a ball player?” (34:01) Oh yeah. I was a saver. I used to save you know. Well you could get a meal for a buck then you know after a game and stuff. Yeah I was a saver and that was one of the reasons that I could con my husband into letting me play ball I could save my money you know and you could save yours and we can add that 5 rooms on you know. So he was, he was a wonderful guy and very great so he went a long with it. Which was so...yeah. Interviewer: “Now did the league have a policy about married players? Were you treated differently?” Not really, except for riding the bus. I know Karl Winsch was our manager at the time and Ray came down and it wasn’t too long after that we were married and we were both one city to another and Ray was down there to visit and he wouldn’t let me ride with him. He said no, you can’t ride, you have to ride in the bus because of insurance and blah blah blah you know and so Ray had to drive by himself. I thought well come on. (35:02) Interviewer: “And then did you still have to stay in the team hotels with the girls and that kind of thing?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “So he was on his own there?” Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now why did you wind up leaving the league? Because you finished after ’52.” Mainly because I had been married for 2 years and things, you could see that things were going to slow down. We weren’t going the way we did Ray coming over and driving back and stuff like that. So there was one time that we didn’t we had to wait for our bus and stuff and I thought I had been married for 2 years and it was time and it’s not fair to Ray and you are going to have to hang it up sometime. But then, so then I called it quits. But I went on playing since and I played with my two daughters until they went to college. I even played when they were in college, we played summer ball. You know, so I never quit playing. Actually I played quite a bit so. �(36:03) Interviewer: “Alright, so now so did you go, did you have continue to work or were you eventually able to just to stay home or…?” Well yeah, I worked for I guess about 5 years until when Janet my oldest daughter was born I had to you know. And I was working nights, and Ray was working days. Well you know how was it? He was working the nights and I was working the days. So Janet the baby, Janet the baby would sleep during the night when I would get home from work should we rearing to go you know. So I didn’t get much sleep. Well one day I was giving her a bath in the morning and I fell asleep giving her a bath and it scared the tar out of me. So I quit after that, I took a leave of absence, I quit. So then I didn’t work for, until the kids were in school. Then I worked part time in the post man’s office. I used to fill in for her some. Then the last six years I worked full time in the postman’s office and I retired from there. (37:16) Interviewer: “Alright, now as time goes on and you’ve got your daughters growing up, do your daughters play sports or did you encourage them?” Oh yeah, both of them played. Well Janet was more interested in music which she was a good ball player but my youngest daughter was an excellent ball player and she’s a phys ed teacher today. She was an excellent, she could have made the, actually they had a team in the Peoria after that we went down when I was coaching and we went down and played them and lost to them but I think we lost one to nothing actually. But Judy played in the, what was it? Applehorn. Irene Applehorn was signed down there and she said you know you should Judy try out for this team. Well you know, she was only 15 and I said oh she’s too young. Come on. But I couldn’t let her go, so. (38:13) Interviewer: “As you are kind of going forward in time there are starting to be more opportunities for women to be involved in sports and Title 9 comes into and stuff. Were you following that or paying attention to what was happening?” Not, not a whole lot. I mean, I mean we had more competitive sports. Although when my kids were in high school they just started a basketball and volleyball or something, there still wasn’t softball or anything in high school. But then when you went into college she played, the youngest one played volleyball and softball and then I coached at the college area she was in, close to Kenosha. And she, Janet went on into music. (38:58) �Interviewer: “Okay, back when you were playing in the league, did any you think about what you were doing as sort of pioneering? Or doing new things for women?” When I came home from the league I had, I had 8 balls one signed from every year that I played. I had a bunch of different program books from all the various towns. I had contracts; I had 2 uniforms, a jacket with that went on the league at the time. I take the uniforms and stuff like that so I had all that stuff and I threw it into a closet and forgot about it, you know. Well then when my kids got to be 7, 8 years old one time I dragged them out put the uniforms on them and took pictures of them you know. So they knew a little bit, I never really talked about it, but all the years I played nobody really…you know and then it seemed like we had our first reunion in 1982 (40:00) and when I got that letter it had a picture of a baseball player on it and it was just like they were calling you for spring training and you are getting your contract. I opened that letter and I was just so excited you know. That we were going to have a reunion. Well I went to the post office and I had, you had to pick your spot when you wanted to take your vacation at the beginning of the year and that was it. So I had taken vacation a different time already with Ray, and so I went up to them and said well you know this reunion is coming up and I am going to that reunion I have to have off. You know I have to change, and at first they said well that’s too bad you had your vacation picked out, we can’t do anything about it. I says, well then I quit. I would’ve quit too. No question in my mind. Well anyway, it didn’t take them too long after that. Then I found out that I could take off of work you know. So I went to that reunion and of course that was something else. And you would have to look at people they would have a little picture from when we played and we would say oh that’s who you are. You know, just like we knew it. Now we see each other more often. (41:19) Interviewer: “So you’ve really been involved in this sort of league organization to regroup since pretty much its inception. Now were you involved at all in the steps surrounding the movie?” Oh yeah, oh yeah. Actually we went out to Cooperstown (New York) for the unveiling of our display for the first time and that was something else. I think they said there was around 400 people there. The guy said he never saw so many people for something like that you know at the museum there. So that was really a thrill to do that. So then when they came and said they were going to make the movie oh my god we were like wow (42:00). You know so then they were going to have these try outs for the movie and they said whomever would like to try out for the movie if you can still play ball come to Smokey, Illinois. Well Anna Hutchinson who was a great pitcher and lived in Racine, we were pretty good buddies by that time said we can play ball, heck we can go down to Smokey. So we went down to Smokey and of course Madonna was there and other ball players were there and stuff. And what was really cute was I went up and asked Madonna for an autograph and I got a ball. So I got an autograph from Madonna and I didn’t realize that nobody else but the ball players could go talk to the movie stars you know. Well we �all had shirts on that we could tell so in the meantime I met this young man there and he was so elated that Madonna was there he just wanted to say hello you know (43:01). I said to him, I said “Gee I went up and asked for her autograph and I don’t think it’s any problem. Just go up and ask her she’s very nice”, you know. Well he starts walking up toward Madonna and there were men all around her within about 2 seconds they said “Where do you think you’re going?” You know, I felt so bad I thought oh my god I told the poor guy that you could go up and ask Madonna for an autograph. They just chased him away they didn’t do anything you know but so that was all of you know. But then they were looking for the way I understand it that we could play the part of the older players later you know, but you had to have the same eyes, the same hair this ball of wax and it didn’t work out you know. Then we heard that they were just going to take a few people extras to Coopersville. Well then our advisor said that I could that she had talked to Penny or somebody and said you know all these 49 people came out for the play offs. I think you should take them all (44:06). Well then they decided to take them all. So then Hutch and I got to go there for the movie. But what the sad part was that the reunion at that time was the same time as the movie in Florida. So that was the first reunion I was going to miss. You know, and that kind of broke my heart, but you have to make a choice and I think we made the right one, it was a fun time. We played ball all day and stuff like that. And she took hundreds of film you know and one thing that I thought was great was on the scene when they came back to the hall of fame but my friend there one day she forgot her glasses. Well they’re filming and all of the sudden they say cut and Madonna or or...what’s her name? Our producer, Interviewer: “Penny Marshall” (45:00) Penny Marshall, I’m sorry. She goes up and says you don’t have your glasses on. I mean, you know here’s this whole bunch of people and she had to go get her glasses on before they could start the film. She was just a stickler for…you know just oh just perfection. And then the thing that killed me was when we had to cut the ribbon to the hall of fame, it took us 2 days to get that right and we were there until I don’t know what time in the morning before she was satisfied, and we were all going home that day. We were pretty concerned you know but…geese, she was a perfectionist. But it was neat, we stayed in the motels there. And we got to see a lot of friends again, all my friends were there. So that was really, it was a good time. But like I told Penny one time, I said well I said it was a great time I talked to her but I wouldn’t want to be a movie star I says it’s too hard. You spend all that time doing it over and over you know so. Then Penny, she really put us on the map. (46:18) Interviewer: “Now if you look back over your playing career, what affect do you think getting to play professional ball, what affect did that have on you or what did that do for you?” �Well I’ll tell you, for me it made me more outgoing type of a person. I had more confidence in myself you know and I just figured it wasn’t anything I couldn’t do. So when we could build a house, we could do anything. Anything you want to do you can do in this life if you just work hard and keep working. Interviewer: “Alright, well you got a great story, you do a great job at telling it.” I was going to tell you about where I saw the movie. (47:05) Interviewer: “Yeah, do that, yes please.” After we were in the movie, then my daughter lived in Europe for 7 or 8 years in Germany, and we had been over there several times. Well we went over there, it must have been ’91 or ’92 when the movie came out and so Janet had a radio station or something and said you know about me being in the movie and that I had played in that ball. And so Frankfurt called us, called Janet, they must have gotten her number. And said that they had already shown the movie at the theatre in Frankfurt, and she said Piper’s her daughter and they said would your mother come to the movie and she can bring her family and she said and talk to the people afterwards after the movie you know, and we will bring the movie back. So we said, oh sure, so we went to Frankfurt and they took us all through the studio (48:00) and showed us a bunch of stuff and that and we went to the movie and we talked for a little bit afterwards with the people and stuff but the thing that I thought was neat is that my family over there got to get in on this movie thing you know because they didn’t get much news and stuff from at home you know. Where my other family, my other daughter was right there in Kenosha and she lived with me kind of. So then this reporter came over to interview us and Piper’s daughter. And my grandkids were pretty small then and I had brought one grandchild with me from Kenosha and so they, we were throwing balls and doing all kinds of things and they were pitching to me and we were hitting and she took all these pictures and everything and you know or movies and they put it on the TV and of course they made it sound like I was Tina Davis because I had (49:00) come from a farm and I had told her all that stuff. You know, but I had also told her that this was a composite; you know it’s not about me, it’s not about, it’s about all the players and everything and I had never liked that when one would take credit for it you know. So when she made the movie the tape, it made it sound like I was Tina Davis you know, and I was pretty embarrassed about that, I didn’t want to show anybody. And she did a really good job, so anyway later somehow she contacted me and sent me the tape. So I have a tape of that interview in the in Germany you know. So that was a thrill. And then too they took pictures and that and put them into the Stars and Stripes in an article about all the league and about my name. So we were somewhere with Janet and some guy walked up and said you look so familiar were you in the paper? You know, and here he had seen it in Stars and Stripes you know. I thought that was pretty great. �(50:01) Interviewer: “So when you are being interviewed in Frankfurt was this by sort of by the American military bases there and stuff? Yes there was from the military bases. She was in the military and actually she tried to contact me after she got out of the military and she called Dolly White and for some reason Dolly wouldn’t give her my address and stuff and we lost track. And I went she was supposed to move to Warsaw. So my husband and I were going up that way to see my brother and we stopped there and tried to find her name in the book and stuff and we couldn’t find her. I felt bad about that, she was a nice gal and she was really interested in the league and she wanted to stay interested you know and we just lost out on her. You know, so that was that was a real experience that I never would have thought I would have. Oh and I was on a marquee at a theatre. It said: “Joyce Hill a Western Leader,” you know and I thought oh my god. (51:00) Interviewer: “You’re a star. Did you have something else? Oh you have a…” Oh a friend of mine is from a neighboring place there and plays with the Kenosha Kings and he hits. He comes back every year from Australia he went over there to coach and its softball or baseball for the girls. So then after a couple of years the Australian girls came up here in Kenosha were in the World Series thing. So this summer since they’ve been back again in to play once again, and married a girl from Australia, she’s young. Oh they’re bringing 5 or 6 girls over from Australia and they are going to make a tour of Rockford and there’s another team, I don’t know much about it, we just found out about it at the meeting but they are going to play those girls. I met the head of it (52:02). It was Ron, you know my friend. Everything just sort of gels somehow you know? From one thing to another, so I had talked to Ron and he gave me a schedule and said that you’re invited to come to all these things you know the Cubs games, you know go see the Cubs. He said I’ll pick you up and take you and bring you back so that’s another thing these girls are doing which is just super. It call came kind of from the background of the All Americans. And I think that is one of the things that I’m the proudest of. You look out how these kids started in little league as little girls you know, and they are great athletes. That’s nice. Interviewer: “Alright” Oh in Milwaukee, yeah (53:00). They have a wall of fame and they were honoring some of the Wisconsin girls. One every year for awhile and they would have a luncheon and we would get up on a plaque. Now we have new owners in Milwaukee and they don’t do as much for us. So they just decided that they just said that they put all the Wisconsin people on a plaque you know. But that was really nice you know ...they gave us a Milwaukee blue jacket, it was nice yeah. It was nice being there. There were several of us that would go there. �So many things that, and it all evolved from the league so, it’s all tied together. Interviewer: “It is and it’s kind of good to see more things coming back around kind of getting more connecting women back to base ball, and more people playing. And you get to sort of be connected to them. Alright. Yeah right. One thing that I am really proud of, it’s my family. Two girls (54:00) and I have 8 grand children. Jan has 4 and my other daughter has 4. And most of them, almost all of them are really good athletes. Dance, you know and that sort of thing. I’m very proud of them. Next to the league that’s the greatest thing that ever happened to me. Interviewer: “Alright, well thank again for coming in and talking to us.” (54:24) �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_JWesterman Title A name given to the resource Westerman, Joyce (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westerman, Joyce Description An account of the resource Joyce Westerman was born in Kenosha, Wisconsin, in 1925. She grew up there and played sports whenever she could. She was playing ball on a company team in Kenosha when she was offered a chance to fill in for an injured player for the Kenosha Comets in 1944, and then joined the league in 1945. She played for eight seasons, including stops in Grand Rapids, South Bend, Racine and Peoria, primarily playing catcher. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Illinois Baseball players--Wisconsin Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-07 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4084378ac2a5eb6ee3f7b819905d24f0.mp4 e93c66fa5badca0536dd01613d4536d1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d414131540ed74fb9032e6338eee8fc.pdf 0c4220105c2cdda158740303267c176f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of Interviewee: Clyde Westra Name of War: Vietnam War Length of Interview: (01:36:50) Pre-Enlistment • • • • • • • Born in Grand Haven, MI in 1948 (1:50) Attended Grand Haven Junior High, got interested in the Marine Corps at this time (2:20) Took a week off of school to make up his mind about quitting school and joining the Marine Corps (3:15) Ended up joining (3:20) Marines appealed to him because of his brother in-law’s involvement in the Corps (4:15) Did not have to wait until he was 18 to join because of his score on the aptitude test and his parents signed off (5:20) Joined on January 27, 1965 (5:30) Training • • • • • • • Went to Detroit for the basic physical, then home for 2 days and off again to California (5:45) Flew into San Diego and went to the Marine Corps Recruitment Depot (MCRD) (6:30) Took the enlistment oath and 16 weeks of boot camp there (6:45) Thought it was the worst possible thing in the world (7:05) Day started at 5:30 am, and got done whenever the drill instructors decided to be done (9:00) Came home for 30 days after boot camp was over (11:50) Already had orders to go back to Camp Pendleton, and knew he was being shipped overseas (12:10) Active Duty • • • • • • • • Two weeks after his leave, he received final orders to go to Okinawa (12:20) Scored well enough on his tests that he was a Combat Engineer (12:50) Was in Okinawa with an Engineer company for 4-8 weeks (13:15) Was shipped to Vietnam (13:45) Arrived in Vietnam via transport ship (14:25) First duty station was at a resupply company in a secured area (14:45) Stayed there for 6-8 months, training and doing support and logistics (15:15) Moved to Danang, and was trained to be a radio operator (16:25) �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • Life expectancy of a radio operator in combat is about 15 minutes (16:35) Was attached to different outfits as a Helicopter Support Team Member (HST) (17:00) Would go out into the field and call in resupply operations, bombs, food, whatever was needed for the outfit (17:30) Also had to call in Medical Evacuations, which was not his favorite job (17:45) Always two HST members tag teamed the radio, in case one was injured or killed (18:55) Saw all kinds of action: involved in all sorts of fighting (19:40) Traveled the A Shau Valley at least 6 times, nicknamed it the Valley of Death (19:45) Carried a map with him, marked all the places they had been (20:00) Would clear out the Valley, return home, but then something new would come up (20:25) During the Tet Offensive, he was sent to the city of Wei to set up an ammo dump (20:45) Was then sent to Khe Sanh during the seige of the city (21:00) Was shelled for 77 days, nonstop (21:15) When choppers were called for resupply, they wouldn’t land for fear of being shelled (21:30) The C-130’s wouldn’t land either, just slide their supplies out the back door and fly away (21:45) During the shelling, they would stay as far underground as possible (22:15) Stayed armed at all times. When he started out in Vietnam, he carried an M-14 and a .45 caliber pistol (24:00) Over time, he went from carrying the M-14 to the M-16, which he didn’t like initially (24:40) Never fully liked the gun (26:25) Slept on the ground in the field, but slept in a cabin on a cot while on base (26:45) Learned that war is mostly boredom, followed by 5 minutes of sheer terror (28:00) Would do anything they could to relieve the boredom (28:15) Played cards, had different clubs you could join, or just writing letters home, cleaning gear, etc (28:20) Could go into the field at any moment, night or day (29:50) Gear was always packed for 2-3 days (30:15) Carried his pack, weapon and a 25 pound radio (30:40) R&R • • • Was in-country for 26 months (31:20) Was ready to go home at 13 months, but had a 6 month involuntary extension because he was a radio operator (31:45) Packed up to go home again, but got extended again because he was a radio operator (33:00) �• • • • • • Put in for R&R to go to Australia, then to Hawaii (34:10) His dad met him in Hawaii (35:50) Flew into Hilo, where his dad met him at the gangway (36:15) Tried to rent a Camaro convertible, but he wasn’t 21 years old yet (37:45) His father rented the car for him (38:20) Won a Purple Heart, Bronze Star, Vietnam Campaign and Service ribbons (39:00) Purple Heart • • • • • • • • • • Purple Heart was from Operation Swift (39:30) Was in the A Shau Valley, and came to a rocky outcrop and the VietCong started mortar attacks when they got there (39:40) Ended up separated from his unit when everybody ran for cover (40:40) Was hit by shrapnel, and took off through a hedge (41:25) Found 26 of his unit, finally found the rest of his unit (41:50) Despite the medic’s order, he tried to stay with his radio (42:30) Medic injected him with morphine and he followed orders (42:55) Found one of his good friends dying with the rest of the wounded (43:45) Was lifted out on the first chopper out of the area, then spent the next 4 months at the 12th US Air Force Hospital in Chu Lai(45:55) Doctors stopped counting at 17 holes full of shrapnel (46:45) Bronze Star • • • • • • • Setting up a new base, had trenches and tents set up (47:50) Vietcong started shelling from the hills (48:05) Had a brand new lieutenant who was standing in the middle of the compound (48:20) Clyde jumped out of his hole, tackled the lieutenant and brought him back to his hole (48:30) Received the Bronze Star for his actions (48:45) Was a TAV for a Vietnamese unit (49:00) Never had a whole lot of interactions with Vietnamese people, but generally found them to be friendly (54:10) INTERVIEW ENDED, PICKED UP LATER • • • • • Some drug use in the Marines, not as much as the movies would have one believed (49:30) Could buy beer in secured area once shift was over (50:45) Had a beer ration of 6 beers (51:10) Cigarettes were very common, at least 90% of enlisted men smoked (52:00) Occasionally knew exactly what was going on, but sometimes would only be given the information necessary to proceed with his mission (55:50) �• • • In Danang, the USO came to put on shows (56:50) Favorite show was from Martha Raye, who had a high fever at the time (57:00) Loved listening to rock and roll while in country (58:20) Post-Service • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • Came home, got a job (59:30) Started hanging out with a motorcycle club, drank too much (59:50) A friend called him out on his change in attitude (1:00:50) During his second marriage on a home improvement project, almost hit his granddaughter with a hammer (1:03:20) Came back the next day, but has no recollection where he went (1:04:30) Wife suggested that he find help (1:05:20) This occurred 20 years after he was discharged (1:05:30) Started at the DAV, but it wasn’t helping too much (1:06:20) Then went to the Veterans Center, got the help he needed (1:06:35) They sent him to Chicago to a PTSD clinic for 35 days straight (1:08:40) Lived with 26 other veterans with PTSD (1:09:10) At the end of the clinic, started to realize what living with PTSD means (1:13:45) Continued with counseling at the Disabled Veteran’s Administration (DAV) (1:17:00) Has learned to control his rage (1:17:15) VA came out with a newsletter wanting Vietnam veterans tested for Agent Orange (1:18:40) VA later listed illnesses that stem from Agent Orange, of which he has one (1:19:20) Also has heart disease, poor eyesight, neuropathy of his legs stemming from Agent Orange (1:22:15) Has had some issues with the VA, but generally a good experience (1:22:40) Never took advantage of the GI Bill, and belongs to the VFW and the American Legion (1:30:00) Feels his military experience was both good and bad (1:31:35) Made him grow up, maybe too fast. Gained knowledge and got to travel (1:31:50) Only bad part was spending 26 months in Vietnam (1:32:15) Feels that everyone should spend some time in the military, but it takes the right kind of person to remain in a combat zone (1:34:40) Would do it again if he had to (1:35:10) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WestraC Title A name given to the resource Westra, Clyde (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westra, Clyde Description An account of the resource Clyde Westra was born in Grand Haven, MI in 1948. He dropped out of high school to join the Marine Corps at the age of 17. Clyde was initially trained and worked in Vietnam as a Combat Engineer, but was shipped to Danang and trained to be a radio operator. He served in Vietnam for 26 months, including at Khe Sanh and in the A Shau Valley. For his service in Vietnam, he recieved a Purple Heart, and Bronze Star. After Clyde came home, he was diagnosed with PTSD and other illnesses as a result of exposure to Agent Orange. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Deb (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-06-17 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aae8c627a147f811f17637ce2a44243d.mp4 8a7ccb4e81a1d6279ff4281a77a473c5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5a9eb2cf0eb3cb9496c0dfe81e24fd9.pdf 6fd217c2892720da4797605b0d5e9182 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Doré Westra World War II 1 hour 5 minutes 33 seconds (00:00:08) Early Life -Born in Byron Center, Michigan -Father was a teacher -Had a job in Byron Center as the principal of a Christian school -Born in 1925 -Moved to Detroit/Grosse Point when he was four years old -Grew up there -Oldest child of the family and had two younger brothers -Father's job wasn't a good job to have during the Great Depression -Had plenty of work, but wasn't getting paid much, if anything (00:01:16) Start of the War and Following the News of the War -Heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor by reading about it in the newspaper -Wanted to serve his country immediately -Came as a surprise because he wasn't following the news of the war in Europe and Asia -Wanted to join the cavalry -Didn't know that the cavalry did not mean cavalry charges on horses anymore (00:03:06) Getting Drafted -Received his draft notice shortly after he turned eighteen (February 22, 1943) -Immediately reported for service -Had been doing carpentry work before being drafted -Had dropped out of high school to help his father pay off debt -Had been working with his father for $1 a day -Father eventually got a job at Ford River Rouge Complex -Teaching sailors about diesel engines -Had been taking courses about diesel engines (00:05:00) Basic Training -Reported for training at the end of June 1943 -Took a train down to Camp Claiborne, Louisiana -Located in the south-central part of the state in a dry area -General training camp with some engineering elements -Learned how to march and received rifle training with the M1 Garand -Scored second highest in his battalion for marksmanship -Won a ten day pass and got to go home for a week -There was a heavy emphasis on discipline and following orders -Every morning they would have to clean the grounds -Mostly meant picking up cigarette butts -He didn't feel that it was fair to pick up butts since he didn't smoke -Eventually led to him being picked to be a dispatch rider �-Delivering messages on a motorcycle (00:09:17) Engineering Training -Stayed at Camp Claiborne for engineering training -Learned how to put Bailey bridges together, and learned how to climb telephone poles -Part of the 1302nd Engineer General Service Regiment -Bailey bridge: Made of eight foot panels bolted together on a truss -Only about fifty to sixty feet long -Made of steel -Learned how to build pontoon bridges -Inflatable pontoons made of durable rubber holding up the bridge platform -Inflated using air compressors -Stayed at Camp Claiborne until the end of 1943 (00:13:00) Deployment -Sent up to New Jersey by train -Part of B Company which numbered about one hundred men -The camp they arrived at was near New York Harbor -Boarded a troopship that was a converted cruise ship -Nicer than a Liberty Ship -His job was to work for the Merchant Marines cleaning toilets and doing odd jobs -Much better than just sitting around -Had good weather on the voyage -He didn't get seasick, but felt uncomfortable -Sailed as part of a convoy -Sailed north to avoid U-Boats (00:16:28) Stationed in England -Arrived at Wales and unloaded there -Taken to a temporary camp and stayed there for a few days -By now it was January 1944 -Snuck out at night and went to a pub -Tried hard cider unwittingly -From the temporary camp got sent to a base near Cardiff, Wales -Worked twelve hour days unloading and loading box cars -He worked on small cranes and on a thirty ton crane -Getting material ready for the Normandy invasion -Spent a few months there -Got to visit town on passes -Went to the movies -Met a few English girls -Sent south to Bournemouth, England -Widened a runway at an airbase there for the American bombers -Also started building drainage fields and septic tanks for incoming U.S. troops -Starting to assemble forces for D-Day -While stationed in England they got harassed by German aircraft -They would fly over at night -Spotlights would illuminate them for antiaircraft batteries �-Remembers antiaircraft fragments raining down on their camp -Germans were targetting cities and mostly ignored their camp -He was in Bournemouth when D-Day happened on June 6, 1944 -Got sick and was in the hospital during the invasion -Eventually got sent to Bristol, England -Went to the movies with a few Wrens (Women's Royal Naval Service) -Escorted them back to their quarters and realized that he was lost -Got picked up by a high ranking officer and was taken to the Red Cross station -He was in Bristol because the 5th Armored Division needed replacements in Europe -He volunteered to be one of those replacements -Sent to a replacement camp in Ipswich, England -Kept busy by going on twenty five miles hikes -By now it was late summer 1944 -On hikes he would separate from the group and visit English farmers -Stayed in Ipswich for about one month (00:28:51) Joining the 5th Armored Division -Crossed the English Channel in early fall 1944 on a Landing Ship, Transport (LST) -Landed at Omaha Beach and was then loaded onto box cars -Traveled through the slums of Paris on the train -Stopped somewhere in France and boarded trucks, was then taken to the division -Joined a combat engineers unit -Numbers were being rebuilt, most likely following fighting on the Siegfried Line -Started moving towards the Rhine River -Clearing minefields, building bridges, and destroying bridges -Came upon an abandoned German base -Did not know that the Germans had left already -There was still food on the tables and it had not gone rotten yet -Had to clear a radio tower on the base and did not know if there were still soldiers in it -By now it was late fall 1944, approaching the winter of 1944 (00:32:32) Battle of the Bulge -During the Battle of the Bulge they were camped out in a farmer's field in Eupen, Belgium -His unit's duty was to keep roads clear to make sure supplies could reach the frontlines -They would fill in craters created by German artillery strikes -There were some artillery strikes against the town they were in -Germans would keep them pinned in by bombarding both ends of the town -Get sent to destroy a bridge -Carrying dynamite in his backpack -Got to the bridge and set up camp for the night -The next day the Germans blew it up -In the meantime an American convoy was approaching the bridge -Some of the trucks got hit and were abandoned -One of his friends commandeered one of the trucks �-Truck was on fire and still being fired upon -Could never get undressed because it was so cold -Slept in pup tents -Never had any problems with frostbite -At the farm in Belgium the farmer would four or five GIs into the house to warm up -Shared his cognac with them -He would converse with the teenage daughter using a French/English dictionary -The son had managed to escape being conscripted by the Germans -Father had been on the Belgian national soccer team -At the end of the battle he saw American troops returning from the frontline -They were so exhausted they couldn't even smile or wave -At the end of the battle and afterwards saw a lot of German prisoners of war -Many of them were either very young, or very old (00:39:02) Advancing into Germany -In late winter/early spring 1945 they began to advance east into Germany -Didn't encounter a lot of fighting -Went from house to house in German towns collecting weapons -Built a pontoon bridge while advancing into Germany -On the other side of the river there were German soldiers waiting to surrender (00:41:22) End of the War and Occupation Duty -Got transferred to the 2nd Armored Division after the war was over -Slept in a house after Germany surrendered -The woman of the house would cook meals for them -German civilians were friendly towards American troops after the war was over -During the war you were not allowed to even talk to the civilians -After the war that rule was relaxed -With the war over he got to be a dispatch rider again -Rode around in the country -On one occasion he picked up a girl and brought her back to town -Turned out that she had been a carnival motorcyclist before the war -In the countryside there wasn't much evidence of the war -Roughly in the middle of Germany (00:45:27) Occupation Duty in Berlin -In July 1945 the 2nd Armored Division was sent up to Berlin -He got to see the Brandenburg Gate -There was a lot of damage from the war in the city's center -Allowed to associate with the Russian troops in the city -Could trade with the Russians -Got a flat tire once and a Russian officer and German civilian helped him fix it -The Germans hated the Russians -Russians would indiscriminately rape attractive German girls -German girls would stuff their clothes with pillows to appear fat -In the U.S. sector there were dances organized for GIs and local girls -Made friends with one German girl -Learned that her father was missing (or dead) and had been in the �Gestapo -A lot of Germans acted like they had never had anything to do with the Nazi Party -Russians were always eager to trade things for the money issued to American soldiers (00:51:36) End of Service and Coming Home -Left Berlin and on the way got two dozen hard boiled eggs from a German woman -Shared them with some of the men in his convoy -It was around fall 1945 and they were on their way to Stuttgart, Germany -From Stuttgart they went to Marseilles, France and waited to be sent home -Not allowed to go into the city because GIs would get mugged -They had a recreation center on the base where he played ping pong with a French girl -Boarded a Liberty Ship and sailed across the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean -Took six days to sail back to the United States -Arrived in the New Jersey/New York area -Boarded a train and was sent to Camp Atterbury, Indiana to be discharged -From Indiana took a train to Waupun, Wisconsin -Parents had moved there from Michigan -Got home in winter 1945 (00:55:56) Life after the War -Got back into carpentry work after the war -Worked in carpentry until he decided to work on his own -Built pig pens, corn cribs, and repaired roofs -After getting married, he worked for his father-in-law in Corsica, South Dakota -Doing electrical work -Installing lights in houses and barns that still used gas lamps -Helped him build a house -People heard that he was good at building cupboards, so he did that for a while -Wife got pregnant and eventually gave birth to a baby boy in Mitchell, South Dakota -Drove to Corsica to tell the family about the birth -Drove back to the hospital in a snowstorm -Then drove back to Corsica in that same snowstorm -Lived in South Dakota for another three years -In-laws wanted to raise their other children in a better environment -Decided to move to Holland, Michigan -Mayor of Corsica begged Dore to stay, but he wanted to go back to Michigan (01:04:23) Reflections on Service -Learned to make decisions for himself when he had to as well as confidence -Feels that the Army didn't change him too much -Believes that he is the same man that he was before he went into the Army � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WestraD1743V Title A name given to the resource Westra, Doré (Interview outline and video) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-14 Description An account of the resource Doré Westra was born on February 22, 1925 in Byron Center, Michigan. He grew up in the Grosse Point area of Detroit, Michigan and lived there until he was drafted after his eighteenth birthday on February 22, 1943. He received basic training and engineer training at Camp Claiborne, Louisiana and was assigned to B Company of the 1302nd Engineer General Service Regiment. In late 1943 his unit was sent up to Camp Kilmer, New Jersey and by January 1944 they were in England. He was stationed in England for over half of 1944 until he volunteered to join a combat engineer unit in the 5th Armored Division. He joined that unit in fall 1944 and was in the Battle of the Bulge and the crossing of the Rhine River. After Germany surrendered on May 8, 1945 he was reassigned to the 2nd Armored Division and was stationed in Berlin until he was sent home in late fall 1945. He was discharged from Camp Atterbury, Indiana in winter 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westra, Doré Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e94a1dc22bdcca681b9b3670a9ea3ed.mp4 8c30c0c0f1470bf49bfa106c339c5e61 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c141d5c16fef24b943e9878e3c1486c2.pdf 4a37c52b6b0d9bafc88d1785756f4776 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Jacob Westra Length: 1:25:23 (00:20) Civilian Conservation Corps  Jacob was born in Kalamazoo, Michigan on November 18, 1918  He grew up during the Great Depression and it was very difficult for him to find a job once he had turned 17  Jacob signed up with the Civilian Conservation Corps for one year and was sent to Camp Silver Creek  It was a very beautiful area and Jacob really enjoyed his time there  He often planted trees and also worked at the ranger station in the fire tower  At one point a girl scout camp caught on fire and it was a real mess; it took them 3 weeks to put out the fire and clean the area up  Jacob signed up for another year with the CCC and was sent to a lumber jack camp in the Upper Peninsula  Jacob then joined the National Youth Administration and went to Forestry School at Michigan State University  The classes were only 16 weeks long and Jacob was still bored when he was finished, so he signed up for another year in a CCC Camp in Grand Haven, Michigan (12:15) Enlistment  There were rumors that the US would be getting involved in the war and Jacob did not want to end up getting drafted  He had been under Army control in the CCC, so he was used to marching and drilling every morning  Jacob enlisted for a term of 1 year in 1939 and would not be called up until 1941  He was sent to Fort Sheridan in Illinois where he trained for 2 weeks and then went through more training in California with the Ordinance Department � Jacob was then sent to Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri for 1 week and then a staging area in Virginia (15:40) England  The men were supposed to go to Africa, but got orders at the last minute to stay behind  They waited in Virginia for 1 month and then took the USS Argentina to England  The trip only took 1 week and they followed a zig zag course with nice weather  They landed in Liverpool and then took over a GMC factory that they were going to use as a supply storage facility  Jacob worked with the assembly and inspection of tanks, trucks, Jeeps, ambulances, and anti-aircraft guns  They worked with the supply line in the factory for 2.5 years (21:45) France  The men were called out of the factory shortly before D-Day in 1944  They were put on a Navy ship and brought to Normandy after the battle  They set up a supply depot on the beach and put up their tents on a base 2 miles from the beach  Jacob took inventory on the beach every morning  He later received orders that he was to go through infantry training for 3 weeks  They were shipped in box cars through Belgium and Luxembourg, to Germany (25:10) Germany  Jacob became part of the 78th Infantry “Lightning” Division, 310th Regiment, Company A  They were fighting back and forth with the Germans over control of a town that had a dam in it; eventually the Germans surrendered � They moved along through the valleys, fighting along many rivers and taking small towns on their way  They received orders that they were to capture a bridge over the Rhine River to stop the Germans’ supply line (31:50) Rhine River  They attached to the 9th Armored Division and went ahead to find the bridge they were supposed to destroy  The Germans knew of their plans and were shooting at them and trying to block off their way  The Armored Division began blowing up the bridge and it slowly began sinking on its pillars  The engineers took out the demolition wires after the majority of the Americans had crossed and the bridge was destroyed  All the time they were being shot at with rifles, machine guns, and artillery from the hills (39:10) End of Service  They went North and found many German soldiers hiding in ditches; they took many POWs  The men continued through Germany for 128 days taking more POWs and small towns  Jacob then found out that he had enough points to return home  Many of the men had enough points and they were all very excited and so sick of eating food out of cans  They took trucks to Paris and then went to Camp Lucky Strike where they waited to be shipped back to the US  Jacob had furlough in England for 14 days (50:40) Reunions � After arriving back home Jacob had thought about going to Penn State for forestry, but his wife and daughter missed him so much and convinced him to not go  He got acquainted with the 78th Infantry Division and went to many reunions with them all over the country  On June 6, 1948 Jacob went through a D Day Reunion Tour in Europe  He spent 1 week on Omaha Beach where they was a big ceremony with the Queens of Holland and England, Duke of Luxembourg, and the Presidents of the US, France, and Prime Minister of Britain  There were many speeches and a parade with bands from all over Europe  Jacob also visited some cemeteries from WWII, traveled to Britain, Germany, and Holland � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WestraJ Title A name given to the resource Westra, Jacob (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Westra, Jacob Description An account of the resource Jacob Westra was born in Kalamazoo, Michigan on November 18, 1918. He grew up during the Depression and was not able to find a job once he had graduated from high school. He joined the Civilian Conservation Corps and was sent to Camp Silver Creek where he worked in the ranger station for one year. Jacob really enjoyed working in the CCC and signed up for 2 more years until he enlisted in the Army in 1939. He was not called up to service until 1941 and went through basic training in Fort Sheridan Illinois. Jacob was then sent to England where they took over an old GMC factory and used it as a supply storage facility. He worked there for 2.5 years until right before D Day when Jacob joined the 78th Infantry "Lightning" Division. They traveled through France and Germany taking many small towns and POWs for months until many of the men earned enough points to return to the Unites States. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCauslin, Kelly (Interviewer) Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-17 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80926bf6c238283eb72e65949e963d7e.pdf d67ee0273f398ee7fbf18597bd4e827a PDF Text Text ---------~ / LIB 100 ANOUB20 1APPROVED .- . EDUCATE TO SAVE: SEX TRAFFIC STO PPING WEST MI CH IGAN'S THURSDAY. DECEMBER 10 NOO:N- 2PM KC ROOM 2204 PERE MARQUETTE LIGHT S,NACKS AND HOT COCOA WILL BE SERVED Th is t:· ,t:•1lt \\ct-; Ut!,He:•d Jill i 111 gc1ni 't.1.' d by WCS ~OU : l nt nn1mtwn to Ct•thk1 Stu d ies, s e cr 1nn S, r.1Ugh r hy Dr. ~{ ,rn d a f:lh ih . T he 1·ve nt is r om prtsf'O o f m 1lnple d is. µ ldys. Edch 1no \' iJI:'".) .; µi ~t: e ut 111lurniat io n .i l.1o ut s e x lr al1 1<: k111 g in \ ·e~l Mi fh i g,m . At. cend1:es 1\ i 11 h ~· L' nco u I' a gt"·d to ,,v~11 k from th (• ti r st t ah Ie l o t h(• JJ st .L t ti(•y :-irt~ o rg., n r7ed m .l progrt"'i<; t'l't' w :1y t o hl'l p .1tti'ndc! L'S h ui l<i 111 fo rnn t1 on , de,·e>lnp •· ;n f){il h ·, ,..Ill d p J rt I l Ip ,ll t:' I 11 l cl k ll I g ,l U I O 11 JI l IH-' y Wj Sh , \\'1' ,,,,.,. ,p1 •c1. l th.inl-.-. ro ,.v,,111, ·n, C;1- 11 d Pr, .1 n rl Sf•x11 .d1 1y '.'> 1 1d 1t ·, r, ,, p .1r 1.111\ -. p onsorrng t h1.., l'\·L'nt \\\• v; o u ld 11!,;,, t u tl 1.1nk \•\1 0 111t• 11 ,i t r~1c, k ln, v ri1.H 1,,ri:il . Th· M, 111 , 1.., . . \'l, P10 1t•~1.. .111d the l11te rn ,1t1111 1, 1l lu 'i ltu.' Mi .., -..io n 1111 tl 1L' 1r p . 11!1t 1p ., 1io11 . � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_WGS_2015_Stopping-WMichigans-Sex-Traffic.pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WGS 200: Introduction to Gender Studies, section 5 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-12-10 Title A name given to the resource Educate to Save: Stopping West Michigan's Sex Traffic Description An account of the resource Poster of the event, including a synopsis of it, as well as the location, time and date. Subject The topic of the resource Women's studies Human trafficking Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies Department Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2130b43ad7b95e69b6c123da820b4054.pdf 47a1238105366771f33aea234e130c2f PDF Text Text 1 MASTER PLAN WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP INGHAM COUNTY, MICHIGAN WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION ADOPTED MARCH 25, 1976 l 1 �TABLE OF CONTENTS INTRODUCTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 GOALS ................................................................ 2 WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP RESIDENTIAL BUILDING PERMIT STATISTICS ........ 3 WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP POPULATION AND LAND USE NEEDS ................ 4 WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP POPULATION ..................................... 5 ROAD NETWORK MAP DESCRIPTION ....................................... 6 ROAD ETWORK MAP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 ACRICULTURE MAP DESCRIPTION ........................................ 8 AGRICULTURE MAP..... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 SEPTIC TANK L1MITATIONS MAP DESCRIPTION ............................ 10 SEPTIC TANK LIMITATIONS MAP ......................................... 11 EXISTING ZO I G MAP ................................................. 12 THE MASTER PLAN DESCRIPTION ........................................ 13 IMPLEMENTATION ..................................................... 14 THE MASTER PLAN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS ................................................. 16 �INTRODUCTION The formation of sets of goals and policies is of the utmost importance in guiding future growth and development in Wheatfield Township. Both goals and policies are expressions of how Wheatfield Township desires to develop and give direction to future land uses. As ideals, they are not necessarily obtainable, hut they indicate a direction to he followed. Policies are statements setting forth means or approaches in obtaining goals. The planning process also offers the opportunity for substantive citizen involvement. Plans cannot he formulated without policies. A basic premise of any Land Use Plan is that the land use arrangements are based upon logical developmental goals. The purpose of this Master Plan is to preserve and use the land of the township to the best of its ability. The greatest resource the township has is agricultural land. This must he preserved for the future of generations to come and not let haphazard urban sprawl clutter or destroy it. Moreover, ill management of development, can only lead to costly consequences. Prime Agricultural Land Maps, as well as Soil Permeability Maps and others should be • used as guides. The potential of good soils exists even though poor management may spoil the appearance. Although some soils may not fit certain types of crops and may not he included on agriculture land maps, research with soil maps should he made before permitting land near or in agricultural areas to be permanently taken out of agricultural use. -1 - �GOALS 1. Efficiency and Economy of Development - To assure maximum benefit to the public expenditures and private investments in the township. 2. Balanced Land Uses - To provide for the best use of the land for immediate and long-range needs. The land use element should permit a well balanced land use pattern capable of meeting present and future agricultural, residential, commercial, industrial, and public needs. 3. Rational Development Pattern - To prevent the misuse and waste of land by e tablishing a pattern lo guide future orderly growth and development. Urbanization should be contained and guided to prevent encroachmenl within prime and good agricultural land. 4. Agricultural Areas - To preserve existing prime and good agricultural lands. 5. Residential Areas - To provide residential areas with a desirable development. 6. Commerce - To provide for commercial development where it is economically feasible to provide goods and services. 7. Industry - To provide for wc> U-Jocated industrial sites with room for expansion. 8. Recreation - To provide recreational areas and facilities. 9. Resources - To protect groundwaters. 10. Environment - To preserve country living. 11. Coordination - To provide coordination between the local plan and plans of adjacent govenmental units. -2- �WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP RESIDENTIAL BUILDING PERMIT STATISTICS YEAR NEW UNITS TOTAL 1956 1957 1958 1959 8 2 4 4 1956-59 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 4 5 7 5 9 9 9 17 17 6 1960-69 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 8 18 + 1 duplex 30 14 13 10 18 88 -3- 1970-75 95 �WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP POPULATION AND LAND USE NEEDS PROJECTIONS 1975-1985 (BASED ON ANNUAL GROWTH RATE 3.2%) (base year) 1975 1980 1985 1350 1550 1800 400** 460 540 3.38 3.35 3.32 TOTAL ADDITIONAL HOUSEHOLDS REQUIRED 60 85 LOW DENSITY 40 55 MEDIUM DENSITY 20 30 TOTAL ADDITIONAL RESIDENTIAL AREAS REQUIRED 120A 180A LOW DENSITY (ABO VE I ACRE) l00A 140A 20A 40A COMMERCIAL I00A I60A INDUSTRY 130A 180A YEAR 1970 POPULATION 1177* HOUSEHOLDS 325* POPULATION PER HOUSEHOLD 3.8* MEDIUM DENSITY (FRACTION OF ACRE) * Community Profile and Data Book--Tri County Planning Commission ** Building permits records--Wheatfield Township -4- �e 2700 ,, WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP POPULATION I I I 2500 I I I I I I I I I I 2000 ,, , 1500 , ,, , , , , ,, , , , I JI 2050 , , / ~ JI 1550 ~ 1177 1000 500 0 1950 1960 1980 1970 -5- 1990 2000 �ROAD NETWORK MAP In this map, broken lines were used to denote gravel roads. All gravel and unsurfaced public roads in the township are county local roads. Surfaced roads are county primary roads and are denoted by thick lines. Surfaced roads are county secondary roads when denoted by thin lines. -6- �WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP COUNTY ROAD -NETWORK - - - -- -~ ·-- -· .\ C&oRR if: I 4 -z ! LINN I 1 2 I /. \ 8 7 I 1-96 9 NOBLE ~ -:....- ;;,r )> r b 18 16 s: 0 z \ Q 1 14 ~ lJ /' 0 / \ HOLT 19 20 21 ;' 22 24 FROST )) N 28 29 ) ' I 27 ••• •1 25 1 •. a. 0 "' ;j WALDO s: m C I_ - CD :0 )> :0 7' 0 )> z ~ CD :0 I 31 ··· ..., ·1 Q · J2 r m -< J) ~ -< )> s: CJ) -7- ~ i I z SECONDARY GRAVEL ( \ PRIMARY - i )b -I 0 ■- () !:: I HOWELL m m r )5 -~~ I �AGRICULTURE MAP All areas inside the solid lines (very best) have been recognized as excellent lands for agriculture. Dark areas have been recognized as good land by the state and Soil Conservation Service. In identifying all of these lands, slope, natural drainage, and natural fertility were considered. As a matter of township policy, prime and good agricultural areas should be reserved for agricultural use whenever possible. -8- �WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP AGRICULTURE LAND I I '' t ••' I I I t I !I II J1 I I I ~ GOOD PRIME -9- �SEPTIC TANK LIMITATIONS MAP The ratings for this map were based on Soil Conservation Service engineering property interpretations for each soil type. This rating system emphasizes the upper 2 feet of the horizon and the natural topographic setting of the soil. The shaded areas represent moderate limitations for the use of septic tank systems. The open areas represent severe limitations for the use of septic tank systems. Since our township depends heavily on septic tanks for proper waste removal, this map is very important in considering future building. -l 0- �WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP SEPTIC TANK LIMITATIONS I 8 7 18 '/ J/ HOLT -11- - MODERATE D SEVERE I . - . • �WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP ZONING -- - -- ·-- ---·• I • .,..-r-,,1.....- . - ~ 1 - - - -1- -~ ~ I • I •' 1-96 10 I ..... . I • • )> ...... I ; ~ ~ I s: 1r J to I lJ 14 I • 16 I f s I ..............------. I I 22 ........ - FROST - • - - I 4'I - - ~ . . . . . . - - - - . ! J1 ::0 ::0 0 J2 7' r m • JJ -< )> z L_ DENNIS to C ~; ~ ~ - -~ -◄ I► • -< ).5 f ~ ffl RESIDENTIAL BLUE I ~ r r )> s: -i 0 ' AGRICULTURE Low density residential ---~---~.------, U) ' '' HOWELL D - .(• I / 'I WALDO m - 25 J 28 s: . --- ' 'I '' z RESIDENTIAL GREEN COMMERCIAL LIGHT INDUSTRIAL -12- s:! ~I 'I �THE MASTER PLAN The Master Plan of Wheatfield Township is based on the numerous criteria previously discussed in this study, including: 1. Development Goals, 2. Population Trends, 3. Existing Land Use, 4. Traffic Patterns, 5. Economic Considerations, and 6. Ecological Constraints. A goal of Wheatfield Township is to encourage the preservation of agricultural land, by discouraging the development of "marginal land" and the splitting of large parcels into small parcels which wast6 land. Therefore, agricultural lands would allow only one living unit per twenty or more acres. Low density residential lands would allow one living unit per one acre or more. Medium density residential lands would allow one living unit per fraction of one acre. -13- �IMPLEMENTATION This plan will be a successful guide for the future development of Wheatfield Township only if it is continually used in the decision-making process of citizens, developers, and the Township. Upon approval of this plan, the Township Board has the power to implement the Plan through the passage of ordinances and the expenditure of public funds. There are basically five steps to take in implementing the Plan which are generally: land use controls, financial aids, general government programs, intergovernmental cooperation, and citizen participation. The Plan should be implemented through the use of Zoning. The adoption of the revised Zoning Ordinance is essential as the present ordinance is outdated and provides little protection for township property owners from new development, or little guidance to developers desiring to build within the Township. Consideration should also be given to adopting Subdivision Regulations for regulating the design of new subdivisions which can be expected in the years ahead. Subdivision roadway frontage and lot sizes should allow cluster plan and townhouse development. Also, living units should not be more than two stories high. The Township, through its participation in federal grant programs and its expenditure of funds for public improvements, can encourage certain types of development in the desired areas of the township. For example, several federal grant programs provide for acquisition of park and open space land desired by township residents. The Township must also recognize its role in the region and the County and continue to cooperate with other governments conducting programs affecting township residents. Finally, the Plan will only be successful if Township residents get behind it and support its goals and suggestions for improved community living conditions. -14- �WHEATFIELD TOWNSHIP MASTER PLAN - C& 0 II R"---- . . ?~:: +zf~-r.c:0·7 .. .... .. ::::::.. ~: :·:: r _,........ •· --t ~: ~ .. - i - - - ... _.___.__..... . 111 I I I I HOLT I I. t Ilic) I .... , I I / I l _! L,,,' .... • ... - I I \ .... .-a i I ~ ... --; WALDO )1 I l EEt3 PRIME AGRICULTURE LAND lLlJ COMMERCIAL D LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL - LIGHT INDUSTRY □ MEDIUM DENSITY RESIDENTIAL EE;:) t:Qf" MOBILE HOME PARK RECREATION -15- �ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS The following sources were helpful in developing this plan : Wheatfield Township Land Use Information System, prepared for Wheatfield Township Planning Commission by Roger E. Springman United States Soil Conservation Service, Ingham County District Office, Mr. Larry Tripp Present Wheatfield Township Planning Commission members, Keith L. Haynes, Chairman, Mary E. Price, Secretary, John T. Fryer, Jerome F. Gilles, and James A. Small Past Wheatfield Township Planning Commission members -16- � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Wheatfield-Twp_Master-Plan_1976 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wheatfield Township Planning Commission, Wheatfield Township, Ingham County, Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1976-03-25 Title A name given to the resource Master Plan Description An account of the resource The Master Plan for Wheatfield Township was prepared by the Wheatfield Township Planning Commission and was adopted on March 25, 1976. Subject The topic of the resource Master plan reports Wheatfield Township (Mich.) Ingham County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d3c7939b6def03df441098b36e2b3e0.pdf a7bc6821fdcc009e64780c4f480836cf PDF Text Text Native American Oral Histories Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Interview: James Wagner "Wag" Wheeler Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell and Levi Rickert Date: April 23, 2015 [ [Lin] This is an interview with Wag Wheeler on April twenty-third at one forty downtown Grand Rapids in the-- [Levi] Riverview Center Office Building. [Lin] I'm Belinda Bardwell and this is Levi Rickert. This is an interview. Oral history interview. Oral record of the urban Native experience of the Grand Valley State University Gi-gikinomaage-min Defend Our History Project, Unlock Our Spirit Project. [Whispers: Put that thing on.] [Lin] Can we have you introduce yourself and spell your name? [Wag] James Wagner Wheeler. Wag Wheeler for short. W-A-G The last name is W-HE-E-L-E-R. [Lin] [INAUDIBLE] Can you tell me a little about where you were born? [Wag] I was born in [INAUDIBLE] Oklahoma in nineteen thirty-five. [Lin] Oklahoma? [Wag] Mhm. [Lin] So, when did you come, or move, or trans-locate to Grand Rapids? [Wag] I came here nineteen seventy-two. I had a fellowship at the University of Michigan. To work on a master's degree in Public Administration. That was sponsored by the National Association of Public Administrators. Their minority division. And I got a scholarship to come finish my master's degree at the University of Michigan. [Lin] Okay. Are you affiliated with a tribe? [Wag] I am Cherokee from Oklahoma. Eastern Cherokee. [Lin] Okay. How would you describe yourself concerning your ethnicity or your identity? �[Wag] [Wag] I like to say I'm Native American. I was not brought up as Native American. I was born during the time when they used Black, White, or Other. And we were always Other on our birth certificates, and licences, and all that kind of thing. So, I'd always identified as white with Native American blood. Until I realized how twisted that was, as opposed to being Native American blood. Or Native American with white blood. [Lin] So describe your connection with the Grand Rapids area. [Wag] When I was at the University of Michigan [Ahem, excuse me] in nineteen seventy-two there was a student over there from Grand Rapids her name was Chet [INAUDIBLE]. I was working at the university while I was going to school in an office called the Opportunity Office. And the purpose of that was to help Native Americans and other minority students make the transition from high school to college. Particularly, the kids that came from rural areas. I went to work there with the help of a guy that I worked with in Oklahoma, by the name of Tony Genia from Charlevoix. While I was there I met Chet Eagleman, he came into the office I think to talk about some financial aid or something, I don't remember exactly. I had known Chet, I had knew about him, because there is a college in Oklahoma called Bacone, it's basically an Indian College in Muskogee, Oklahoma. I had been up there playing ball and refereeing and all that. I had met him in the crowd or something. I just remembered the name. So, Chet came into the office and we got to be pretty good friends. And he told me that they had this agency over here, Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council. That had been established I think in nineteen seventy-one or seventy-two. They had a director of the agency with the name of [Short interruption] Eddie White Pigeon. But he was leaving, and Chet asked if I was interested in maybe coming to work after I was got through with my program. The program that I was in was a two-year program. [background noise] So, I told him yes, that I would consider it. I was in the process of getting a divorce from my wife in Oklahoma. When we talked further, I told Chet, I would like to apply for the position. I just wanna finish school and I would give him one or two years, but I wanted to do some traveling and some research on the Cherokee people. So, when I finished school I came over and was interviewed for the executive directors position. They assigned me, or appointed me. I think that was in seventy-five somewhere around May or June. I can't remember exactly what the date was. So, I became quite familiar with Michigan and Grand Rapids. At that time, they had-- there was quite a controversy going on throughout the country with Native and non-Native people. Particularly white people there was a take over a place in South Dakota called Wounded Knee, South Dakota. There were several people from Grand Rapids that were in that movement. Which was initiated by the American Indian Movement. I got real familiar with that and got caught up in that type of situation. At the time there used to be a bar on Bridge Street called Cat's Paw and it was a �Native American bar, basically. [Wag] I was here probably about a month or so and there was a bunch of Native people in the bar, got into a fight, and the police were called in and there was a whole lot of clubbing and slapping around and that type of thing. I think they arrested four people that they were charging with disturbing the peace. I don't remember what the charges were, but it was something to do with disturbing the peace and drunk and disorderly, and all kinds of things. That was my first encounter with the Grand Rapids Police and the city basically. From there I just got very familiar with it. Hired some people to help us put some programs together and start building the agency. At that point in time the agency had a grant from Office of Native American Programs and the grant was for forty thousand dollars, and it was to build an Indian center and to hire some staff. Develop some programs, national programs, state programs, and county programs. That type of thing. [Lin] You mentioned you wanted to do some research on your Cherokee heritage, were you able to do that? [Wag] No. [Lin] No? [Wag] No. I still haveta'. I met people that were familiar with the Cherokee movement. My people were in Tennessee, Georgia, and Kentucky. Actually my ancestors are the ones that had gone to Jackson, President Jackson, to try to stop the removal of our people from the southeastern part of the country and into Oklahoma. They met with President Jackson, he denied that they could stay in Georgia, the Cherokee people, and the other tribes that were there. They signed the treaty back then, as well as today, I think they had the Cherokee blood ball. Which meant that if you did something that crippled or hurt the rest of the people you signed your own death sentence. Out of five of my ancestors, when they went back to Oklahoma there were four of them that were killed for signing that treaty. Consequently they did move our people. So my people, my ancestors, left that part of the country and moved down to Arkansas and Oklahoma basically before the Trail of Tears and the rest of the people came on through the Trail of Tears, basically. [Lin] So you graduated from Michigan. [Wag] Uh-huh. [Lin] What was your experience like there being Native? Or-- �[Wag] [Wag] It was--[Laughter] Well, [Clears Throat] When I was there, there was four of us. Twenty Juniors--no. Paul Johnson who was an ex-football player there. Paul was a Chippewa from Saginaw, and Tony Genia who was an Ottawa from Charlevoix. Jim Ken Cannon was there and his brother John. They were from North Port, that area. Together, the five or six of us--I think there was--George, uh, Charles Pamp, Moose Pamp was over there. While he wasn't going to school, he was working there in the school helping with us. So, we petitioned the university to develop a Native American Indian Student Association. So, we founded the Native American Student Association. There was a guy that worked for the university by the name of George Goodman. Goodman. Goodman. George was the mayor of Ypsilanti. African American, a wonderful, wonderful person. He was over the opportunity to program that I worked for. So he was one person that really helped push through the Native American Association that we had established. We'd set up a library and developed some Native American programs with some professors that were over there. One professor was a guy from Oklahoma by the name of McCormick, Charles. Well, Edward McCormick. Another one was a fella by the name of Felt. Professor Felt. I don't remember what his first name was. But he was quite well known throughout the university world for developing social--I think some social programs with the university and things of that nature. So he was very supportive of us gettin' in there and it became quite successful, we helped a lot of students. We had a lot of students [Levi] What was the time frame. The early nineteen seventies? [Wag] I was there from seventy-two to seventy-five. So that was probably seventythree. [Levi] Kay [Wag] The first year I was there. Because Tony Genia [Clears throat] in the two-year program he had already been there a year, and he was already there when we did all that. So, he left after I graduated the first year. So, it would have had to been seventy-three. [Levi] We've had some Genia's here in Grand Rapids Hunter Genia, who you know. [Wag] Yeah. [Levi] Tony's his uncle? He talk about that connection? [Wag] Tony is relativity young. But I don't think they're real close realities. [Levi] Okay. �[Wag] [Levi] I never really could find out from Hunter's mother. Doris [INAUDIBLE] [Wag] I never really did figure out how they were related to him. But interestingly Tony Genia from Charlevoix. Tony Genia from here. [Levi] Mm hm. [Wag] But then the program developed and I left over there, and I think it's still going. [INAUDIBLE] [Lin] So, you grew up in Oklahoma? [Wag] I grew up in Oklahoma. [Lin] Went to high school there? [Wag] Yes. [Lin] Anything striking from your high school memories? [Wag] Yeah, I couldn't speak our language in high school. Couldn't speak our language in school at all. Which it didn't bother me too much, because we didn't speak it at home. I never learned the language. My parents were brought up in it's better not to show. [INAUDIBLE] To try to assimilate into the majority of society. Had uncles that went to mission school. My mother's brothers went to mission school. My dad was an only child. My mother was one of fifteen. So, I had my uncles and aunts to play with quite a bit. We always celebrated different types of, we didn't call it the ghost supper back then, but it was always around the time of Thanksgiving. 'Cause that's a harvest time as you know. With my mother's big family. We celebrated it with her family more so than just by ourselves. I have three sisters and a brother. Brother and sister are old and two sisters younger. [Levi] So separate from Thanksgiving there was a dinner celebration. Similar to what you see in Michigan. We call them ghost suppers. [Wag] Yeah, yeah. It was similar to them. I can't remember what they're called. I don't remember. But it was all right there, about the same time. [Levi] It was honoring the harvest and honoring the ancestors? [Wag] Yes. The spirits that are on their final trip. That type of thing, final passage. �[Lin] [Clears throat] Did you have friends or other people in your high school or growing up that were Native? [Wag] Oh yeah. Yeah. And what I meant to say is, I've seen kids get slapped for speaking to each other in the language. And screamed at: "You can't say that. You can't say those dirty words. That dirty language." Or whatever they called it, you know. What bothered me, I had real good friends that'd get slapped. Back then you couldn't do anything. Today, you'd get fired. But back then you just took it and that was it. [Lin] So this was a public school? [Wag] Yes. [Levi] Now, speak to the difference, Wag, where you grew up in Oklahoma. Now, I understand they don't have reservations, per se, they have tribal lands. Is that correct? [Wag] Mhm. [Levi] And where you grew up, was it more of a rural area? Or urban? [Wag] It was more of a rural. The city I grew up in was the county seat of Sequoyah County. [Levi] Okay. [Wag] It's right below Adair county, which is heavily populated by natives, and Cherokee County, which is where the center of the Cherokee nation was. It is the furthermost county, Cherokee County, in Oklahoma. It's right bordered by the Arkansas river to the south. Across the river is Choctaw County, and to the northeast or northwest is Creek County, and the southwest is Choc-- [Levi] Chickasaw, isn't it? [Wag] Chickasaw [Levi] Chickasaw. [Wag] Creeks and Shawnees and all that throughout that whole--You know, you've been there before--And, we were governed by the laws of the state, you know here it's the U.S. Marshals. But back there the land--We call it the reservation, well the reservation is made up of about twelve or thirteen counties. The county government takes care of the county and the city government take [Wag] �care of the cities. The state government, you know, were under the auspices of all those laws. Whereas opposed here the people have some of their own judges and own law enforcement and backing of the U.S. Marshals and that type of thing. [Levi] What Indian country are you--Cherokee, okay. [Wag] Yep. [Levi] You know, tribal police and… [Wag] Well, we didn't have any tribal police. They have the now. [Levi] They do now. Yes. [Wag] They do have them now. But that came after-- [Levi] Well, that's interesting. [Wag] They came after I left. [Levi] Okay. [Lin] So your experience in public high school in Oklahoma, and then your college experience in Michigan-- [Wag] Well,I went to college in Oklahoma also. [Lin] Was there a difference in shifting from the public school atmosphere to the college there to the University of Michigan. [Wag] From the college there to the University of Michigan that's quite a difference. Ann Arbor is a very, very conservative community. Very conservative. The university is very, very liberal. So, you can imagine what that created in that community. Where I grew up it was somewhat conservative. Not a lot of liberal activity there. We have a democratic party. [Laughs] But, I don't know if it was in charge of my time in school. But, it was very different. I have to tell you a story. When I [clears throat] started enrolling at the University of Michigan, now I'm from Oklahoma, I'm close to forty years old, thirty seven years old at that time. My concern, our concern back there with Marijuana, or as we called it local weed, our concern was our cows eating it because they would eat the local weed and they'd walk into fences and into trees. [Chuckles from group] So, my grandfather's like: "Go out there into the pasture and cut up all that local weed. Get rid of that local weed. Pile it over there and burn it. That was my [Wag] �experience with it. Gay people were people that were really happy. Okay? So, if you said that someone was really gay, that means they are really laughing and responsive, or something like that. Enrolling at the University of Michigan, we're in line and there's probably two thousand kids ahead of me. Every five or ten steps there would be people passing out brochures. Women's Liberation Movement, the African-Americans, the Society for Democratic Society brochures, Gay Society. I'm taking all these brochures--[Levi Laughing] reading these brochures and I get to the point on the gay where it talks about homosexuality. Now, I'm from Oklahoma. Nobody at Michigan [INAUDIBLE] sent me a line. First thing I do is I put those things in my coat. So nobody can see me reading 'em, because I am so embarrassed-- [INAUDIBLE] [Laughter from Levi and Wag] Peak at it every so often. But, that was my experience when I came up here. Four letter words in class, the 'F' word was common from our professors. Absolutely common [Phone vibrating in background] that was something I was never used to. It was quite an experience for an old guy from conservative Oklahoma. [Laughter] The University of Michigan [INAUDIBLE] It was quite an experience. There was quite a bit of adjusting I had to do. [INAUDIBLE] It was a good time, I enjoyed it. [Lin] So, you started the Native American Student Association? [Wag] Association. [Lin] So what type of activities did you do or create while you were there? Because you created NASA, correct? [Wag] Yes. [Lin] So what are some of the first things you did? [Wag] The first thing we did, we brought in books. They gave us a room over there to set up a library of Native American books. There were very few there. There was a lot of new writers. Vine Deloria, comes to mind, had written several books. Other people had written quite a few books. We brought them in because a lot of kids that were there, Native kids, wanted to do some papers on Native Americans. So there wasn't a whole lot of research there, if there was it was very twisted. That's one of the first things, we brought in some speakers. We brought in Angela Davis. I don't know if you know who that is. Angela Davis was a activist from California that was very supportive of the liberation army. The Black Panthers she was very supportive of the Black Panthers, and all of that. So, it was very controversial. We had a lot of kids showed up for her talk. But we brought in quite a few speakers. We brought in Vine Deloria, Angela Davis, I think there are two-three other people that we brought in from around the country. I can't think of it now, [Wag] �who they were. That's what we'd do, we'd bring in speakers and started a pow wow over there. They had had the pow wow a year before, that was university sponsored. So, I helped work on the pow wow that year along with Paul Johnson and Moose Pamp, and some other people. Tony Genia, and Jim Kin Cannon and his brother John. Several people, some from Grand Rapids. I think that there were some [INAUDIBLE] from Mt. Pleasant. I can't remember all the rest of them, but we had quite a few students. [Lin] Did you think that it was gonna last? [Wag] Yeah we did. Yeah we did. I thought that most of the world was Haitians, you know that were developed back then that were gonna last. But I think with the development of the casinos, I think the federal government and county government, and all that used that to say that you got your own money. [INAUDIBLE] We all make so much from the casinos. [Laughter] [Lin] So does it make you feel good that that's still… [Wag] It does… [Lin] [INAUDIBLE] [Wag] I had a girl come over here from university one time. I used to collect Native American baskets. Quill boxes--and [INAUDIBLE] baskets. And, I picked up a hamper from a guy that was probably a twenty-six inch, twenty-seven inch hamper. That was close to a hundred years old. I know the person that bought it paid fifteen dollars for it because it had the price in the lid. It came Petoskey, and the girl came over and her last name was [pause] was...I can't pronounce it...I was gonna say McDonald, but that wasn't...Maldonado ... [Lin] [INAUDIBLE] [Wag] I can't remember.There are some Maldonado's from down and around here I think. She came over, found out that I had these baskets. And, she came over to buy it, because they were just starting the casino, I think. Just building a casino in Petoskey. [Clears throat] And, they were having an exhibit up there with some of the artwork. She came over and I asked her about it, what they were going to do with it, and all that. She said that they were trying to get some of the older artwork and put it there. So instead of selling it to her, I gave her four or five baskets that came from up there. They really appreciated it because they hadn't had any money back then. As far as I know, it's still in their museum. Unless, she took it and sold it someplace. [Laughter] Put it in her house, I don't know. I don't know why I'm jokin' 'bout that. I think she was a law student. [Wag] �[Lin] Allie. [Levi] Mhm. [Wag] What's her name? [Lin] Allie Maldonado. [Wag] Yes, that's who it was. [Lin] She's our current judge. Chief Judge. [Wag] In Petoskey? [Levi] For Little Traverse. [Lin] For Little Traverse. [Levi] Bay Bands. [Wag] No kidding. [Levi] What year would that have been back when the casino would have started? Was it ninety...? [Wag] It just started when she was a senior. [Levi] [INAUDIBLE] Ninety-seven that they started in Petoskey. [Lin] The first one? Probably. [Levi] Yeah, right around there. I think. The bowling alley. [Laughter] [Lin] Yeah, the bowling alley. [Wag] Yeah. Yeah she--I remember she came in and said I am from the Native American Student Association--University of Michigan. She said: "Do you know what that is?" I said, "I know very well what that is." I told her that I was once there and helped founded it. She was surprised at that because she did't know that, and I told her the story that [clears throat] Where I lived...I lived in Solane, in a trailer park. On a state road that goes into Ann Arbor from Solane that I used to go into the university everyday. And there's a small airport out there that had some airplanes, you know the planes had the letters N- [Wag] �A-S-A. So… [Levi] [Laughter] [Lin] [Laughter] [Wag] So, we'd get those two and take them out there. And say: "You need to come up here, we have rolling planes." [Laughter] [Levi] [Laughter] That's funny. [Wag] [Laughter] And kids really believed that until we got there. We can fly anywhere you want to go. We have our own airplanes here. [Laughter] [Levi] That's good Indian humor. [Laughter] [Lin] [Clears throat] So, after you finished with an NPA, you went to the Inter-tribal Council of Grand Rapids. [Wag] Yes. [Lin] You got that forty-thousand dollar grant. [Wag] Well, they had that. It was in existence when I came. [Lin] Oh. So what were some of the programs or specific things you did in the community. [Wag] They just had some, really, advocacy programs. It wasn't anything that they actually had [Laughter] Oh, man. [Laughter] They were trying to develop some programs. At that point in time there was an agency here in town called The Owl-Indian Outreach. It was a substance abuse program, three or four blocks...a couple of blocks...from our agency. So, they had that for the community. Then there was a young man who worked for the agency by the name of Fred Chivis. I think Fred Jr. and he was like an employee...Employment Specialist. So, he would help people find jobs in the community. That's basically all they had--If I remember right. [Wag] What I do remember is, I was here just about probably two months and the wife of one of my board members kept coming in the office and screaming at employees that I had, and they were mostly volunteers. So, I went to her husband and I said: "You need to keep her out of there. And if you don't, I will. 'Cause I'm not gonna have people come in and scream at my employees." His response was: "She talks too much." and I said: "Well, she can't do it here." So, �he didn't do anything. And the next couple days she was back in there. And I said: "You will leave, and you will not come back until you call and make an appointment to come back in here, or I will physically remove you." So, she left and starting that night for about three months, I got phone calls starting about midnight, every night. Absolutely, every night. The calls would come starting about midnight, and would last until four and five o'clock in the morning. [Levi] Wow. [Wag] And when I answered the phone there was always the same tape or record or whatever it was. There used to be a song about the B.I.A, and the corruption of the B.I.A, and it referred to the people working for the B.I.A. And the song was directed at me, how corrupt I was, and all of that. 'Course I couldn't do anything about it, and I didn't know who it was. Well, after about three months--Well, during that time… After about another month, when all that started. I'm looking at all the books, and everything. And I knew they had a forty-thousand dollar grant. They're paying their director ten-thousand dollars. They're paying their assistant director I think...like eight-thousand dollars. They had some other expenses that amounted to about fifteen to twenty thousand dollars. I don't remember now what they were. And, they hadn't paid their income taxes. They'd had their withholding taxes. So, I start asking around about, you know: "What are you doing with your withholding taxes?" They didn't even know what I was talking about. So, I ended up calling--I have an accounting background, I got that in Oklahoma before I came to Michigan. So, I call Cincinnati, and I said: "I'm with Grand Rapids Intertribal Council, and we haven't been sending you our payments for the withholding taxes." And they said: "We don't know who you are." And I said: "It's an agency, we've got some employees, we've been withholding money (taxes) and not sending it to you." She said: "I don't have any record of that. What it your 501 C-3 number?" Or, your business number. And, I said: "I don't know, I haven't seen it signed here." So, she looked a little bit farther and said: "You're not even a legal organization, you don't even have your 501 c-3." So, I say: "Okay, what do I have to do?" and she talked to be a little bit, and they had been trying to get that, the agency had been trying to get their 501 c-3. What they did when they put in the application, they had a 501 capital 'c' 3. And she said the 'c' has to be a small letter. And I said: "That's it?" And she said: "Yes." So, I said: "Okay." So, I filled out the application and sent it back in, and probably about a week or ten days she called and she said we got the application. You're now legal. And, do you have any idea how much you owe the federal government? And I said: "No, I don't. I'm trying to figure that out." Ended up being they owed the feds about six thousand dollars. [Silence] [Chuckles] I told her, I said: "We don't have the money to pay, ya. You're gonna have to give me some time to do that." Well they were very gracious about it, and all that. So, I was dealing with that. I was dealing with the board president's--not board president--one of the board member's wives. Her family, his family they were [Wag] �taking shots at me every way you can take a shot at somebody. I finally found out that one of the persons that was calling my apartment. So, I drove by his house. He was standing in the door way. I got out of the car and started up there and then he disappeared. I had a pretty bad reputation as a street fighter. That followed me from Oklahoma. I knocked on the door several time. Went back, and got back in the car. Came to the office and called the house. And, I don't know who answered. I said: "I wanna talk to blah, blah, blah [clears throat] So, he came on the phone and I said: "I know you're the one who is calling. I'm gonna tell you right now, if I get one more call, one call, I don't care what time of day it is, I don't care if it's a man, woman, child, I don't care. I am kicking your ass. Big time, every time I see you. And that ended all the calls.[Chuckle] So then, I just had the family to fight. [Laughter] And you can't imagine the stories that were in the paper. [Lin] About the Inter-tribal Council? Or about you? [Wag] About me. About the Council. About how much money I was making. [INAUDIBLE] Think they pay me, I think they payed me twelve thousand dollars that year. [Levi] Hmph. [Lin] Hmph. [Levi] Let's talk about you running the Indian--The Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council. Talk about the climate. With the shift, like in nineteen seventy-eight came the American Indian Freedom-- [Wag] [INAUDIBLE] [Levi] --Act. President Carter signed it. All of a sudden Indians could celebrate, practice their ceremonial practices. Talk about what happened. Like with the drumming or anything else that happened. [Wag] Well, we were trying to bring in drums, and trying to bring in some cultural programs. Okay? And if we brought a drum into the Inter-tribal I had people on my board, and people in the community that would not--How you doin' [Wag] [Unknown Person] How ya doin' stranger? [Wag] I've been good. That would come into the agency. They wouldn't come into the agency if we had drum in there, if we had feathers. They would not come in. [Levi] And these were? �[Wag] Native people. [Levi] Local American Indian, Native people. [Wag] Yes. [Levi] Who maybe because of their Christian belief system [Wag] Yes. [Levi] Would not… [Wag] Yes. [Levi] Even walk through the doors of Grand Rapids Inter-tribal… [Wag] Yes. [Levi] Because you wanted to bring the drum and the feathers. [Wag] And it wasn't just me. There were other people that wanted that. That's why we were trying to do it. [Levi] Okay. [Wag] We had people in school. The drop out rate in public school was like seventy-five percent, at that point in time--and probably still is... No, they wouldn't come in. They wouldn't come in and I took all kinds of pot shots about it, you know. Heathen. I was, which I probably am. [Laughter] [Levi] Practicing pagan religions, or whatever the set. [Wag] Yeah, practicing pagan religions. [Laughter] [Levi] So how long would you say that those sentiments continued? [Wag] Still do. [Levi] They still do. [Unknown Person] [Levi] In fact, can I add something to that? [Laughter] Why not. �[Unknown Voice] They're probably even stronger today than they were then. [Levi] Wow. [Wag] Yeah, they are. [Unknown Voice] Yeah they really are. [Wag] In many cases they are. Very strong today. Tell ya' a story about my--I met a girl up here by the name of Linda Keyway. Well, at that time she was married, and I had gone through a divorce. Linda Dixon was her name. We decided to get married. I wanted to have a traditional Native American wedding as I could. I got a hold of Eddie Banai, who is a holy man in Minnesota. [Levi] Mhm. [Wag] And Eddie started the Red School House there, along with some other people. [Levi] He's the author of the Mishomis book, Eddie Banai? [Wag] He is the author of the Mishomis book. [Levi] Correct, okay. [Wag] I ask Eddie if he would administer the vows for us. I got a brother and three sisters. They've all been away from home, at different places in their lives. Growing up and their jobs and things of that nature. My parents had always gone to see them. I had been in Michigan for two years. My parents had never been up here. So, I called them and told them I was getting married. Which my mother was dead set against. She was against divorce. [Phone chiming in the background] And I said: "I would really like for you to be here. You and my dad." They're both Native people. Nobody is more Native than my dad. When they got here, after about two or three months, when we got ready to get married. The first thing my mother said to me when she got out of the car was: "What is this Indian stuff you're doing?" [Crying]--Excuse me just a minute. [Clears throat] That really hurts. [Wag] [Levi] Wow. Church as soon as they married. Church after they married raised all us kids in the Methodist church and she [Wag] [Clears throat] And I said to her: "Will you be here? But if you're not, I'm gonna do this. And I'm okay with it if you're not. If you don't want to see me again. I'm okay with that. But, I'd really love for you to be here." They did come and they enjoyed �it. But I think she had a problem with it for a long time. She was brought up as a Presbyterian which is just about as close to reform church as you can get. My dad was brought up as a Methodist. She changed to the Methodist Church after they married. Raised all of us kids in the Methodist Church. I heard all of the hellfire and brimstone crap that all the rest of the people did. Had a real problem with my parents not owning me. My dad was very supportive of me, and she became very supportive of me. But that was a real trying time. Because not only was I fighting people from this community, but I was fighting Grand Rapids Public Schools, the county, the state, the feds, everybody. Because they didn't want Indians to make any headway. They still don't. It got nasty, I mean it got really, really nasty. And very, very trying on me. Because I didn't have much of support anywhere. My second wife became an alcoholic, and we divorced. She got to kill herself. [Levi] Damn. [Wag] But... [Levi] But the fights that you were having with… Let's just talk a little about with the Grand Rapids Public Schools, or the county, the city. Were they fights for money, funding for the Inter-tribal council. Were they fights… I know even today, and we're in twenty fifteen, that this interview is taking place. But, sometimes we have to fight for our very existence. 'Cause we are such a small number. When compared to the total population. Talk about some of those fights. [Wag] Well, one of the biggest ones was with[clears throat] the public schools. It became very apparent to me that our kids were dropping out of school. Falling out, quitting, just forever. It became apparent that kids would go through school until about seventh or eighth grade. And that's where they started. We found out that in the seventh or eighth grade is when the kids were in, I think, their phys. ed. classes. Where competition became very, very tough. And, these kids seemed to have trouble with that competition. [Levi] The Native kids? [Wag] The Native kids. So they would just drop out of school. They would just quit going. There's a building here in town, Lexington, where we ended up being there. At the time I was here we operated out of West Side Apostle Church which is at the corner of Straight and Bridge Street. But, there was a Native American program at Lexington where they had some classes over there. I know that we checked on them. I had a guy that I had hired, it was, I called it my Education Director. He had a PhD. in Education. We found out that the two years prior to us trying to help, or work with the schools they had enrolled twenty-two students the first year not a kid earned a credit. They had enrolled fifteen kids the year that I'm �talkin' about, and at that time nobody was earning any credits. So, I went to the school, talked to the director of the education program. I said: "What do we need to do? I've got people that can recruit students. Can we get some teachers?" They said: "You recruit the students, we'll provide the teachers for ya'." Then I said: "Okay". So, at the start of school [clears throat] I kept calling 'em 'bout two or three days before school star--classes started, and said: "When are you gonna get our teachers over here?" [Levi] So, no teachers? [Wag] No teachers. No teachers. [Levi] Wow. [Wag] And, we had a hundred and thirty-seven applications. Now, every one of those applications amounted to, at that time, I think about, fourteen hundred dollars. Monies at the public schools were good. We still didn't have any teachers. So, I was sitting there and I got...something happened...I got really upset. So, I got the applications and--I'm gonna use some curse words in here--I'm gonna use words that I used with them. [Lin] Go ahead. [Levi] We've got good editors. [Laughter] [Unknown person] I'm sure it's something you never heard before, right? [Laughter] [Wag] So, I took those applications up there and I walked into, at the time, the administration building was on the fifth floor. I walked into the fifth floor, this young little white girl, receptionist was sitting there at the desk. And I said: "I wanna see Phil Runkle(?)" [Levi] He was the superintendent of the schools. [Wag] He was the superintendent of the schools. [Unknown person] Yeah. [Levi] Yes. [Wag] And, she said: "He's in a meeting." I said: "I don't care where he is. I wanna see him, and I wanna see 'im right now." And she said: "Well, I can't disturb 'im--" And I said: "Let me tell you something honey-- [INAUDIBLE] put 'em down there. �[Levi] [Laughter] [Wag] Let me tell you something honey, if I don't see Phil Runkle(?) in two minutes, I'm gonna tear this whole goddamn place up. Everything, I'm gonna break all the windows, I'm gonna wreck this place. She got up-- [Unknown person] And went and got Phil Runkle(?) [Laughter] [Wag] She went and got Jim--What was it...Farmer. Jim came out there. Well, he's the one I'd been working with. Jim walked in, and he said [INAUDIBLE]-- I said: "You son of a bitch. You stay away from me, or I'll knock your fucking head right off. [Levi] Wow. [Wag] Pardon the language. So, he backed off and I said: "I wanna see Phil Runkle(?) or I'm gonna start." So, he called back, or one of them called back and Phil Runkle(?)came out there and said: "Wag, what's going on?" I said: "You sons of bitches have lied to me. I have a hundred and thirty-seven applications for kids, that they'll be showing up in about two days. And, if I don't have some teachers there Phil I'm--" and six other people came out with him. I said: "I'm gonna come up here and throw your goddamn ass right out that fifth floor window. And there is not a fucking swinging dick in here that can even slow me down." [Laughter] "Gimme some teachers, right now, gimme some teachers! How many we need. How many teachers we need over there." [Unknown Person] Just like that. Just like that... [Wag] Next day, I had five teachers over there. [Levi] Wow. What-What year would that have been, Wag? [Wag] Seventy-five. [Levi] Nineteen seventy-five? [Wag] Yup. [Levi] Okay. [Laughter] Good Ol' Phil nominated me for the Outstanding [Laughter] OOutstanding Statewide whatever it was-- [Unknown Person] [Levi] Do you blame him? [Laughter] I'm joking. Wag, just for the record though, was there--were there--among those five teachers were there any Native teachers in that group? �[Wag] My wife. [Laughter] [Levi] Your wife? Wow. That's it? [Wag] Yeah. Linda. They didn't have any teachers there. Well, they did have some. [Levi] Well, they had Janette Sinclair. [Wag] They had Janette Sinclair. But she was working for the regular education. [Levi] Okay. [Wag] Native education program. Janette was on the board, but she wasn't one of the teachers there. [Levi] Okay. [Wag] They had my present wife. [INAUDIBLE] [Levi] Okay. [Wag] At least that's where I met her. [Lin] And who is your present wife? [Wag] Pardon? [Lin] Who is your present wife? [Unknown Person] [Wag] Is that her real name? Her name was--Her name was… [Unknown Person] [INAUDIBLE] [Levi] Sammy Wheeler [Wag] Sandy Whiteman. [Levi] Whiteman? [Wag] And I took some crap over that. �[Levi] From the Indians? [Wag] Yes. [Unknown Person] Because of her name. [Wag] Name. Yes. [Laughter] [Wag] I had people workin' in Inter-tribal that if white people came in there, they wouldn't speak to them. [Unknown Person] [Wag] [INAUDIBLE] They wouldn't even wait on them. Tony, he was one of them. [Laughter] Tony! Tony! Was one of them. She wouldn't even wait on them. [Unknown Person] You know, what's funny about that. They resented that and they didn't resent the white man's religion. [Laughter] [Wag] So, it went on and on. We did some good, we probably graduated better than four hundred and somethin' students. So, over the course of the time I was there, a lot of them went to college. Had some good people work for Inter-tribal. Your mother [Laughs] Your mother was one that was good. She worked on our Indian Child Welfare Department. Who made a lot of change at the state level. Through her efforts and her bossin' Jonah Rayfields (?) office. A lot of changes. [Lin] Hm. [Levi] Talk about the connection that the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council may have had with the American Indian Movement. A.I.M [Wag] Um, not much. I worked in Oklahoma with a group call Oklahoman's for Indian Opportunity. It was started by... [Levi] Ladonna Harris. [Wag] Ladonna Harris, and a good friend of hers. Iola Hayden(?) O.I.O and the American Indian Movement was really cross ways. I mean they just didn't like one another. 'Course there wasn't a whole lotta people left of the American Indian Movement back then. [Laughter] So, I was a little bit cautious, because I had got involved with them, not totally involved with them. But when I was in the University of Michigan, we had a lot of students that went to-- �[Levi] [INAUDIBLE] [Wag] Washington. [Levi] Washington D.C. for the take over. [Wag] For the take over. The B.I.A. office is over there. We had a lot of students that went. I didn't go. I didn't go, I had three young kids, and a wife in Oklahoma--er, an ex-wife in Oklahoma. And, I thought: "I can't get in jail." [Chuckles] [Levi] So, that was November of nineteen seventy-two that that took place. [Wag] Yeah. [Levi] Yeah. [Wag] Well, it was right after that too. [Levi] Okay. [Wag] Cause that's when they really got in there and took over everything. We had Wounded Knee, South Dakota. We have people from here that flew out to South Dakota to deliver supplies. We had people that-- [Levi] Now, was that Native or Non-Native. [Wag] There was no Native that did the flying. [Levi] That did the flying. [Wag] But there was Native that helped-- [Unknown Person] There were some non-Natives that came out too. [Levi] But, what type of supplies did they send? [Wag] I think there was food, not any ammunition, I don't think. No ammunition. But, I think it was food. [Levi] Food, blankets, clothing-- [Wag] Yeah things like that. [Unknown Person] Water. �[Wag] And water, yeah. [Levi] Would you say that the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council was kind of a convener that they collected these items, these supplies? [Wag] Uh, we didn't have-- [Levi] Or was it separate from the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council? [Wag] It was separate from that, but I think the Odawa(?)Outreach did, they had a building down on Turner street. [Levi] Kay. [Wag] Right behind where Sullivan's Carpets was...If you remember there was an old-- [Levi] Red building. [Wag] And I think that they collected them, and the guy that flew them out there was probably helpin' coordinate that. That happened to be Jennet's husband, Percy Sinclair. That flew out there. But, it was very controversial. I was just talking about the F.B.I and all that commin' in earlier. You know, they came in ta the office. Wanted to know, because our phones were tapped. I had a red file when they finally decided to release all that stuff. I think that was from the University of Michigan, because any organized Native group, the members are gonna have red files. That's really just how it is. But it was--There was a lot of non-Native people that supported. Just like there was a lot of non-Natives that supported the AfricanAmerican movement. [Wag] [Levi] Exactly. [Wag] If you remember. Wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been. [Lin] Mmhm. [Unknown Person] That's so important to remember that, not all white people are bad. [Wag] Right, right. [Levi] What would you say the, if you were to sum up, the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council's leadership? What did it provide to the Indian community? As you recall, after all these years? You haven't served there for what? Nineteen years as �[Wag] executive director. But, what would you say was the calling-card for Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council? I think it was just the place for people to come to. I really, really do. Whether they were involved in the programs or not. Or, just as a social gathering place. [Unknown Person] It's kinda like a fallout shelter. [Laughter] [Wag] It ended up being like that. [Levi] But it provided a means of cohesiveness for the community? [Wag] It did. [Levi] Kept the community together? [Wag] Yeah, it did. [Levi] I don't wanna put words in your mouth. But I just wanna-- [Wag] It did. I had people, that after I left there and went up north, and it finally closed down, people ya' know that told me--that they said: "You know, after you left, we never went back to Inter-tribal." And of course you knew there was a while there before you took over. You couldn't-- and a lot of those people went back to living on Reservations. Or, back to their real home, and didn't come in. But, I think the main thing was that we had--and we had some programs that we had. [Wag] We had substance abuse programs, we mental health programs, we had the job training program. [Unknown Person] [Wag] And food assistance program. Yes, food assistance, and senior meals. [Unknown Person] Right. [Wag] So there was an awful lot of things that's goin' on there that the people of the community came in and organized while they were there at that point in time. [Levi] What-One of the things we are trying to do with this project is really to get a sense of what it was like to be Native during that time in the city--the urban setting. Whether they were here through relocation programs-- [Wag] A lot of them were. �[Levi] and driven to the city for education. Or, employment opportunities. Give us a sense of what the climate was like back then. [Wag] Well--While the people wanted to help the attitude was, we wanna make you like us. [Levi] Of the non-Natives. [Wag] Yeah, yeah. We wanna make you like-like your "Everest" Doug DeVos. [Levi] Mhm. [Wag] And, he implied something to that effect. we wanna help you become-- [Unknown Person] [Wag] Like us. Like a good dark complected Christians, ya know? Been there, did that! [Laughter] Didn't work! I said something to him, that I probably shouldn't 'av said. I don't even know what I said now. But it was something to the effect of: "We don't live like you. We don't wanna be like white people. We have people thatthat are against the Christian church-- Against Christianity and all its forms. People that suffer because of that. I myself was a Christian when I came up here. I'm not anymore. But-- [Unknown Person] By the way, Doug told me about you telling him that. [Wag] Uh huh. Well we never-[Unknown Person] But, I also told him. I said: "Do you have any idea what they went through under the banner of Christianity. [Wag] [Laughter] [Unknown Person] I said: "Just go up to a place like Mount Pleasant, and look at the orphanage. And ask some of the Indians what they did to 'em." [Wag] Yeah. [Unknown Person] [Wag] Yeah. [Unknown Person] [Wag] How they forced them to speak another language. Yeah. How they stole them from their parents. �[Unknown Person] [Wag] Absolutely. Well, they cut their hair. I mean, you know. [Unknown Person] [Wag] Cut their hair, made 'em speak different language. Put 'em all in the same uniform. Yeah. [Unknown Person] [Wag] Dennis Banks was a good example of that. Yeah. You couldn't speak your language. And all that kinda thing. [Unknown Person] They also abused so many of those kids. [Wag] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. One--One of the attitudes, I think Levi, that we went into here--I remember we had some money from the city--the-- [Levi] The CD-- The Community Block Grant Money. [Wag] Block Grant Money, yeah. Been a long time. [Levi] Community Block Grant--CDBG. Yes. [Wag] Yeah, Block Grand money. [Unknown Person] [Wag] [Laughter] I had--Do you remember Howard Greenstra(?) [Unknown Person] Yeah. Yeah. [Levi] The city manager. Yes. [Wag] Well, no city manager-- [Levi] No--I'm sorry he was a city commissioner. [Unknown Person] Right. [Wag] He was the city commissioner. [Levi] Greenstra, that's right. �[Wag] But, he was the chair of the city board. [Unknown Person] Right. [Levi] Yes. [Wag] Said to me, in a meeting, Howard said a lot of things to me. [Levi] [Laughter] [Wag] I said a few things to Howard. Uh, said to me [INAUDIBLE] at a commission meeting, committee meeting; "Why have we given you guys money for four years? How long do you think it's going to take to really help 'ya? [Levi] Are you serious? [Wag] I am. And I said: "Well, let's see. It took ya four-hundred years to [INAUDIBLE] [Unknown Person] [Laughter] [Wag] Maybe we should think in terms of four hundred years? [Unknown Person] Yeah, how'd ya like that? [Levi] I'm sure, by the time that I got there, I think it was only fifteen thousand dollars a year. Maybe at your time your time, you probably started at about five or six. [Wag] Ten. [Levi] Ten. [Wag] Ten-thousand. [Levi] Oh, so just wait till the...that's kind of a little off. But--I want to say it. That they expect us to give us two fishes and five loaves of bread. [Wag] We're dividers. [Levi] Go. Go--Go feed the multitude. Expect us to go solve all the problems, and I will tell people this all the time. I'm not Jesus Christ. I cannot perform miracles with this little sum of money you have given us. It's just not gonna happen. [Wag] No. no. [Levi] I do that on purpose to throw their own scripture back to their face so they get the �point. [Wag] Well, let me tell you somethin' about Howard again, that's really, really interesting, I think. At that time the museum had twenty-nine--the remains of twenty-nine Native people that came out of the mounds. [Levi] Okay. [Lin] Grand Rapids Public Museum? [Wag] Yes, Grand Rapids Public Museum. There was a real fight going on throughout the country, about getting the remains back and out of museums. The guy that dug those mounds up, was a guy by the name of Richard Flanders. Who was an anthropology professor at Grand Valley. And--bitter enemies. Bitter enemies. We finally became friends right before he died. [Laughter] I don't know what that meant. I mean acquaintances. [Unknown Person] [Wag] How did you accomplish that? [Laughter] I noticed something [INAUDIBLE] [Unknown Person] That was my next point. [Wag] But the fight was really going on, and we couldn't even get them to move. I mean they didn't want to give anything back. Those were scientific remains--they were studying the science to it-- Find out how you people ate, what you ate, and how you--ask us! We'll tell you what we ate. A lot of people can tell you what we ate back then! [Laughter] I mean it was just kind of a joke in these commission meetings. But they finally-- and this was introduced by Howard, bless his heart. But they finally said, we are going to return the remains that we can deem as historical. And we are gonna to keep the remains that we deem as pre-historic. Keep the pre-historic so that we can study them scientifically. But, those that we can deem to be historic, return to the community. You know what date they pass? Fourteen ninety-two. That's a resolution that the city commissioner of Grand Rapids approved. Fourteen ninety-two. So, if anybody wants to know when pre-historic time ended--it's fourteen ninety-two. And then he asked me, when I said: "Hell, Howard. Nobody here but Indians till fourteen ninety-two. [Levi] [Laughter] [Wag] And then he said: "How can you have-- [INAUDIBLE] Minister of a Christian Reform church--how can you as people make the association or connection with people that lived two thousand years ago? �[Unknown Person] [Laughter] What was his answer? [Wag] You're a Christian minister, and you want me to answer that? Come on. That ended the conversation. [Levi] The basis of Christianity is two thousand years ago. When Jesus walked the earth. I get your point. [Wag] I mean that's the-- [Levi] That's incredible. [Wag] It was incredible. [Levi] So, his question was--Just so we get this right-- How could you connect back two thousand years? What connection you had? [Wag] Yeah. [Levi] But yet, as a Christian minister, he couldn't see it? [Wag] No. [Levi] Okay. [Unknown Person] [Wag] In fact, you can go way beyond. Absolutely. [Unknown Person] Way beyond--[INAUDIBLE] [Levi] I think the Norton Mound remains, pre-date when Jesus walked the earth fromfrom what I've learned from history. [Wag] Well, there's some in UP, there's not supposed to be any up there but there are. I had a girl that worked for me that found them up there. [Levi] To your recollection why do they call them the Hopewell Mounds? [Wag] I think there was a tribe, I don't know, I think there was a tribe that they called Hopewell people. I don't even know what that associates with, I don't have any idea. It might have been a name that-- [Unknown Person] Norton. �[Levi] I heard he was a farmer out in Ohio. That-That I guess they have mounds there. [Wag] Oh, yeah they do. [Levi] They associated the two, they connected them. They said: "Oh, they have to be Hopewell people." Though really it's named after the-- [Unknown Person] [Levi] Farms. [Unknown Person] [Levi] Do you know the name of the mounds-- --downtown where the museum is? Yeah [Unknown Person] That whole area was going to be a parking lot. And Randy Brown and I were on the board, and I told him. I said: "If you don't make those Indian mounds-turn em' Wag Wheeler over them. [Laughter] [Wag] Wha-what? [Unknown Person] Really! They were gonna make that a parking lot. [Wag] I hadn't heard that! [Wag] I'm sorry can I get--[INAUDIBLE] As you know... [Levi] No, no. This is great stuff! Our Christia-excuse me--Our questions are strictly a guide. But given the fact that you've run the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal council, you're going to be a little different in that you know things at a different level than some of the other people we're gonna interview. [Lin] Can I take a break real quick? [Levi] Yes, yes. [Lin] Can I use your computer and have it plugged into the wall? So, I can plug it into here? [Levi] Yes. [Lin] This sat here so long that the battery is dead. �[Levi] Let me go get my electrical cord. [Sneezing] That's no problem. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/15daeb4a8d0a27ce0234ba3dddbf1c7c.mp3 5251e4f3d7897ce5c40a86e5dc4ca97b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit. Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past. Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015/2016 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America Indians of North America--Michigan Indians of North America--Education Potawatomi Indians Bode'wadmi Ojibwa Indians Anishinaabe Navajo Indians Dine'e Cherokee Indians Tsagali Aniyunwiya Archaeology Mound-builders Hopewellian culture Indian arts--North America Personal narrativse Grand Rapids (Mich.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-10_Wheeler_Wagner_0615 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wheeler, James Wagner "Wag" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Wag Wheeler interview (audio and transcript) Description An account of the resource James Wagner "Wag" Wheeler was born in eastern Oklahoma to Cherokee parents in 1935. In his life in Salisaw, Oklahoma, Wheeler worked as an accountant and administrator until becoming the Executive Director of Oklahoma Indian Opportunity. After the organization lost its funding, he moved to Michigan to pursue a masters degree in public administration from the University of Michigan. There, he co-founded the Native American Student Association of UM, and was recruited to be the Executive Director of the Grand Rapids Inter-Tribal Counter and became a major contributor to local Native American social services for 18 years. He served as the CEO of Grand Traverse Band of the Ottawa and Chippewa Indians for two years. In this interview, he discusses his life and experiences as a community leader trying to reinvigorate Native cultural traditions in Grand Rapids community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer) Rickert, Levi (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Cherokee Indians Tsagali Aniyunwiya Personal narratives Grand Rapids (Mich.) Indians of North America Indians of North America--Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/678291c7b699fc81fda5a8b114937cc1.pdf 65e851c87d0ed04cafcd008eb32a0de6 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collection Kent County Oral History Project RHC-23 Mrs. George Whinery (Katherine M. Pantlind) Interviewed on September 16, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape 12 (23:50) Biographical Information: Mrs. Whinery was Katherine M. Pantlind, born 28 January 1910 in Kent County, daughter of Frederick Z. Pantlind and Hilda W. Hummer. Katherine was married in 1931 to George A. Whinery, Sr. She died 29 December 1998 and is buried in the Pantlind family plot at Oak Hill Cemetery. George A. Whinery was born 11 January 1902 in Grand Rapids, the son of Joseph B. and Fannie Whinery. He died 9 July 1992 in Grand Rapids at the age of 90. Katherine‟s father, Frederick Zachary Pantlind was born 26 July 1886 in Grand Rapids, the son of J. Boyd and Jessie L. (Aldrich) Pantlind. He married Hilda W. Hummer in 1906. Frederick died 15 November 1929 in Grand Rapids. Hilda, born 22 January 1886 in Holland, Michigan, the daughter of George P. and Margaret (Plugger) Hummer. After Frederick‟s death, Hilda married as her second husband, Mr. A. Chester Benson about 1932 and she died 31 July 1964. ___________ Interviewer: Mrs. Whinery, you‟re involved in the Shakespeariana Club and as I understand it, that club has had a long history in Grand Rapids. Could you tell me something about the history of the club, the background? Mrs. Whinery: Well, it was founded way back in April twenty third, eighteen eighty-seven, by a group of ladies interested in the study of Shakespeare, and it was founded by Loraine Pratt Immen and it has been meeting ever since eighteen eighty-seven, yes. Two, twice a month, the second and fourth Wednesdays, and we‟d study two books a year, a history in the fall, and a comedy in the spring. For quite a few years, a group of us have gone up to the Shakespeare Festival in Stratford, Ontario every summer to see the Shakespeare plays, which is most enjoyable. Turn it off Bob; I‟m nervous as a wet hen. Interviewer: Ok, perhaps…. Mrs. Whinery: A paper is written at each meeting by our members and at the Grand Rapids Public Library on the second floor, outside of the Michigan Room, there is a very handsome carved Shakespearean chest which was given in memory of one of our members. In that the papers are put, the good papers, the well-written papers; and that is our Shakespeare corner. There is a carved wooden hanging, piece above it where Shakespeariana momentums, have been put and that is the Shakespeare corner at the library. �2 Interviewer: The club‟s been in existence since eighteen eighty-seven. Why was the club formed, do you think? Mrs. Whinery: Well, because women are interested in Shakespeare. He‟s been with us for over four hundred years and he grows. Interviewer: Are clubs like this being formed today though? Mrs. Whinery: Well, there is a Shakespeare group connected with the Ladies Literary Club, that is think is still in existence, it isn‟t as old as Shakespeariana, but they have the same purpose, I‟m sure. Interviewer: Well, the thing I‟m getting at is that I saw, this kind of society bluebook that was put out for Grand Rapids. I don‟t know if you‟ve ever seen one, but it was put out around the turn of the century sometime, or maybe even in the eighteen nineties. It listed in there, clubs and organizations and I think, Miss [Josephine] Bender told me there were like seven or eight still in existence, that there was a list of about twenty; and it seems during that period of time, in the history of Grand Rapids, up to some unknown date, people organized clubs, they got involved in clubs. And it was a real tool of keeping people together, interacting. Mrs. Whinery: Well, this is the day of wheels and I think everyone‟s busy going places, instead of staying home and studying and reading and learning, I really do, I think everyone‟s on the go. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: And we used to do so much more in our homes, we had, these are after we read and study and have our papers we have tea; that makes for a very nice social hour. But I just don‟t think, I think people play bridge today and as I say, go Interviewer: Has, in this club in particular, has the membership been increasing or decreasing? Mrs. Whinery: It stays the just about the same, you have to be invited to be a member, you have to be interested in Shakespeare and willing to write a paper every other year, we have about forty members and we keep it that size if it got any larger we couldn„t meet in the homes. Interviewer: Yes. Where did you grow up as a child? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, in Grand Rapids Interviewer: Where abouts in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Whinery: Well, down on Lafayette as a child; I lived on the corner of Lafayette and Wealthy and then I lived on Washington Street for a good many years, and then I lived with my grandmother on College. Interviewer: Yes, what was the, what was it like living down there? �3 Mrs. Whinery: Oh, it was great, that Washington Avenue gang, there were, by actual count, fifty some within that block and we had such good times. A lot of them are still my dearest friends, the ones I grew up with. That‟s what‟s nice about living in a city the size of Grand Rapids, because you keep your old friends; they‟re your best friends. Interviewer: Yes, was there a good deal of interaction not only among the children but among the adults, the parents? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, yes, they all were friends and went together, and had their dinner parties. Everyone had their swings and their playgrounds in the backyard, they didn‟t have the school playgrounds that we have today and we had, I know Mary Lockwood had a great big playhouse that her father, who‟s in the lumber business had built for her in the backyard and we just had the best times together. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: Sliding down Mrs. Waters‟ hill and sliding down Washington Street and we had a pony and a pony cart, and the Peck girls had a pony and a pony cart and we all lived on Washington Street. Interviewer: Where did everybody keep their ponies, their animals? Mrs. Whinery: Well, Grandpa had a farm, a gentleman farm, there were Dudley Waters and Ben Hanchett and John Martin and my grandfather, J. Boyd Pantlind all had gentlemen farms; show farms. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: And, we used to have a great time out there. Interviewer: Where was your grandfather‟s farm? Mrs. Whinery: It‟s now, grandmother, after grandfather died, grandmother sold it to the city and its now Woodlawn Cemetery on Kalamazoo. He had three or four hundred acres on both sides of Kalamazoo Avenue and the Catholic cemetery is on one side and the Protestant cemetery is on the other. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: They just tore the little white house where the caretaker, the manager of the farm lived, and for a long time that was the cemetery office, but they tore it down a few years ago and built a modern brick building on the east side of Kalamazoo now for the offices. Interviewer: Your grandfather, did he run the Morton House or the Pantlind Hotel? �4 Mrs. Whinery: Both, he had the Morton first and then he bought the old Sweets Hotel, which he renamed the Pantlind Hotel and then that was torn down and he built the Pantlind Hotel. Interviewer: Yes. When was that? When was the Pantlind built? Mrs. Whinery: About nineteen seventeen, I would say, but I couldn‟t be too sure. Interviewer: Yes, I heard that your grandfather, what kind of guy was he? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, he was jolliest, kindest, most fun person in the world; he was not very tall, kind of round, immaculate dresser, and he was Scotch and he had a marvelous sense of humor. He could tell a story in every dialect and he just was naturally funny. And everybody loved him, he was known throughout the country. Interviewer: I heard that when the Powers‟ Theatre was going, and they used to bring a lot of the shows to Grand Rapids and so on that your grandfather was one of the ones chiefly responsible for it, only because the actors loved to come and stay at the Pantlind . Mrs. Whinery: I think they probably did. Grandmother had the greatest collection of signed autographed pictures of all the old actors and actresses, musicians and famous people that came and stayed with grandfather at the hotel and she gave that collection to the Civic Theatre, but it has long since disappeared. Interviewer: It has disappeared? Mrs. Whinery: …..any idea of where it is. Interviewer: No? Mrs. Whinery: Today, the Civic Theatre has made so many moves. Interviewer: Where was the Civic Theatre originally? How long has the Civic Theatre been in existence? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I can remember it when it was in an old building over on, over on of course, it‟s back on the West side now, but this was near the river, it had an old pot bellied stove. You should ask Josephine Bender about this because she‟s the authority on the Civic Theatre. I‟m hoping that before too long it will have a fitting permanent home. Interviewer: Is that the one they‟re talking about on the river? Mrs. Whinery: Yes, I hope so. Interviewer: Yes. �5 Mrs. Whinery: Going to take lots of money that‟s always the difficulty, but, I hope it will come, it should come. Interviewer: Was your family members of Kent Country Club? Mrs. Whinery: Yes and that‟s one of the stories that Katherine Lockwood wanted to tell you because she was a little girl on her white pony Rose when she and Grandfather Pantlind and, I‟ve forgotten what, it was Mr. Lowe or Mr. Blodgett and two or three other men were looking for a new location for Kent Country Club; and they all rode all out in the north end where country, where Kent is now located, looking at that area for a country club. And that‟s one of the stories she wanted to tell you. Interviewer: I never knew that Kent originally was located right down on the corner… Mrs. Whinery: Right here, my house is sitting on the one of the, oh what… Interviewer: Greens? Mrs. Whinery: Greens, yes a creek ran right through here and this was.... Interviewer: Yes Mrs. Whinery: But Grandfather was one of the founders of Kent at least where it is now, I don‟t know how far back that goes either. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: But a long, long time… Interviewer: Are you a member of the Ladies Literary Club? Mrs. Whinery: No, Bob, I‟ve never been. Interviewer: How about the Women‟s City Club? Mrs. Whinery: Yes, I‟m a member of the Women‟s City Club. Interviewer: How long has that been around? Mrs. Whinery: Been on the board, well. (Turn it off!) Interviewer: Ok. Could you tell me the story you were just telling me where your family‟s homestead was? Mrs. Whinery: Well, my great, great grandfather William B. Ledyard lived in a charming white house that was torn down, on the corner of Cherry and Union. In fact, his property ran from College to Union along Cherry, and half a block back. That house was torn down to build the �6 Oakwood Manor Apartments. Their daughter Euphrasia Ledyard married Moses. B. Aldrich, an early mayor in Grand Rapids. They gave them their side yard, which was on the corner of Cherry and College to build a home; they built a large brick residence with a large brick barn. People thought they were crazy to build a townhouse in the country, as they said at that time, and from the cupola on the top you could see Grand River and all of the valley. Their daughter, Jessie Aldrich married James Boyd Pantlind. They were my grandparents and they were given the side yard to build their home on. I lived with my Grandmother for a good many years, and maintained the home after her death. My children were the sixth generation to live on that one piece of property, which belonged to my great, great grandfather William B. Ledyard. Interviewer: Where, now you have a piece of property, and the family begins there and as the children grow and marry, they build houses on the property until finally you have six generations of family living on the same plot of ground. Why do you think, I mean, what has happened? In some of the interviews that I‟ve had people talk about family and how closely knit their families were. Now why isn‟t that, why isn‟t it that way today? Do you think? What‟s changed? What happened? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I lay it all to wheels again, I think everybody is on the go; they don‟t want to stay home. Every kid wants to get their hands on the wheel of a car and take off; and I don‟t know, I loved my grandmother and had had great respect and admiration for her. I was close to my father and my mother and I just don‟t know why it is, although my children are satisfactory. They, I hope love and respect me. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: I‟ve never had any trouble with my children; they‟ve given me nothing but joy and happiness. We haven‟t had that problem, Bob. Interviewer: You‟re very lucky that… Mrs. Whinery: I know I‟m lucky. Interviewer: That‟s, that‟s I know I‟ve asked this question of everybody, what it was that they think changed, ended that era? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I think it‟s too much permissiveness, I‟ve, I‟ve, my mother was strict with us…. I think you get out of your children just what you expect from them, and what you put into them. Interviewer: Yes, was the, do you think that when you were a child growing up, do you think there was a society, a definite society in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Whinery: Oh yes, there was, certainly there was a society. Interviewer: What was it based on, do you think? Entrance into that society? �7 Mrs. Whinery: Well….. Interviewer: And is it different from than the day? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, there isn‟t any society today. Interviewer: Why not? Mrs. Whinery: Well, it‟s just wanting to bring everybody down to the same level, I suppose. Don‟t get me started on this subject because I feel very strongly about it. I don‟t think things are improving at all. When I was a little girl we were satisfied with so little, we played with our animals and our pets, and I used to catch pollywogs, and frogs and snakes and I‟ve, I just, we didn‟t have to be entertained every single minute. Seems to me my grandchildren are glued before the boob tube all the time, or they want to be taken to the pool to swim or they want to go to see a movie, or they want this, or they want that; I don‟t remember that we required entertaining every single minute. I used to read all the time. I don‟t think children read the way we used to. I gave my Little Colonel storybooks, which I loved as a child to my granddaughter the other day and I don‟t think she‟s looked at them. Interviewer: Yes. What was society based on in those days, entrance into society? Was it just money? Mrs. Whinery: No. I think it was the same interests, the same educational background, your neighborhood you lived in; I wasn‟t conscious of one person having more money than the other. They used to do a lot of calling on one another and people had ballrooms on their third floor. Grandmother had a ballroom and they used to have their parties up there and it, I just think everyone had more fun and in a more wholesome way then they have today. They didn‟t feel they had to have their cocktail parties and… Interviewer: Was there liquor served at their parties? Mrs. Whinery: Well, of course I grew up in the prohibition era, and we didn‟t serve liquor at our house; and I know the Whinerys didn‟t. Interviewer: Yes. If you had to set a date or a particular event as perhaps being a thing that began the demise of that era, and that style of living, what would it be? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I think it‟s been since the Depression. Interviewer: Did the Depression affect your family? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I can remember doing with very little when George and I were first married. We were married in nineteen thirty-one and I had a very small budget to get along on. We had one car and we kept it a good long time. I can remember going along and looking down and being able to see right through the floorboard at the road underneath. And you know, I think �8 maybe it was all for the best. I think young people today, things are too easy, it never occurred to George and me with four children that we could get a divorce and that he could afford to get married again and keep another family. We were married, we had responsibilities and we had to get along. And now it‟s just so easy…if you don‟t feel like getting along, go ahead, get a divorce. Interviewer: There wasn‟t very much divorce? Mrs. Whinery: No. And now when my children, my son Fredrick, of course he‟s an M.D. and those are people that he associates and knows, he looked me right in the face last spring and said “Mom, I don‟t know any happy marriages” and I looked right back at him and I was horrified and I said “Fred, that makes me so damn mad. Your dad and I have been so happy and you go.” He said “I don‟t mean you, Mom” and he said “I was talking about my friends” And when Marney [MacAdam] says to me "Mother, I don‟t know any happy marriages, all my friends are having affairs or are unhappy”. I can‟t understand it. I don‟t like this age. Interviewer: Well, I think that‟s good, it‟s a good place to stop. INDEX Ledyard, William B. (Great-Great-Grandfather) · 6 B Bender, Josephine · 2, 4 P Civic Theatre · 4 Pantlind Hotel · 4 Pantlind, Hilda W. Hummer (Mother) · 6, 7 Pantlind, James Boyd (Grandfather) · 3, 4 Pantlind, Jessie Louise Aldrich (Grandmother) · 2, 3, 6 I S Immen, Loraine Pratt · 1 Shakespeariana Club · 1 K T Kent Country Club · 5 The Depression · 8 L W Ladies Literary Club · 2, 5 Women‟s City Club · 5 C � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce3e950f14725ee3425b2ed741f92f43.mp3 f543ad30e141383bfd31b91478350d11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_12Whinery Title A name given to the resource Whinery, Katherine Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whinery, Katherine Description An account of the resource Katherine Pantlind was the granddaughter of J. Boyd Pantlind, founder of the Pantlind Hotel. She married George Whinery in 1931. She is a prominent member of the Kent County G.O.P. Mrs. Whinery died December 29, 1998. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01a9b72c8e38b8bf64dc9851d46395c0.mp4 adafe6ce687dddf0aa90a1b5f2c21fdb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/460550fadb17eb06437e669c506767af.pdf f146a0902b7cd84808890b6738d6dbe3 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW BRUCE WHIPPLE Born: Lansing, Michigan Resides: Lansing, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 5, 2013 Interviewer: Bruce, can you start us off with some background on yourself. To begin with where and when were you born? I was born in April, 1949 right here in Lansing. I went to school in Lansing and I spent a little time in my early years in Holt, we lived in Holt for a while and then we moved to Lansing. I went through the Lansing schools, my mother was an assistant to the principal at Dwight Rich, so I knew all the teachers and could get away with a few little things and she was always quite behind me with everything I did. She was always pushing me to do better and to know people and that. I graduated from Everett High School in 1967. I‘d gotten my draft notice just prior to that and went down for my first physical. 1:01 In February of 1969 was when I had my actual draft induction notice, and at that time I went out to a Red Cross Center and took a bus at 5:30 in the morning down to Detroit and went through the induction process. Interviewer: Okay, at this point, how much did you know about what was going on in Vietnam and all that? Absolutely nothing—in high school I was into cars and girls and just having a good time and partying. I never paid any attention to the newspaper or the television or anything like that; we were just out to have a good time. Interviewer: Did you know anybody who had been drafted or had gone off to Vietnam already? 1 �I had, because I was working at an auto trim, Schubel's Auto Trim. 2:00 And my neighbor across the street, his brother had just been drafted and inducted and he asked me to come down and help him out at the shop and doing that, I had no idea, I was still in high school. I went down there and talked to Jack and this was on a Friday and I told him I came down to help out if I could. Ken‘s brother was being drafted and I was going to take his place and Jack said, ―Okay‖, and handed me a key to the door and said, ―Come in Saturday and open up for me‖, and I‘m thinking, ―I don‘t know anything about this‖, and he said, ―Just answer the phone and tell them I‘ll be in when I get in. Sweep the floors and take care of things‖, and that‘s how it all started, and I‘ve been there over forty years now. It was in 1965 that I started, and Ken‘s brother came back and I had a real good friend of mine that I grew up with, Dale Hildebrand, he had joined the navy. 3:06 he was just getting out of the navy, he was actually in the reserves, but he needed a job, so I said, ―Come down and work with me‖, so there were the three of us that were Jack and Doc and I. Interviewer: So, when you when you finished high school you didn’t have any plans for college , at that point, or anything like that? No, I had this job that I loved doing, and I loved working with cars, I loved—I mean it was just such a natural, I mean, I couldn‘t believe that I could do this and they paid me for it. I made money doing this and I just loved working on ―hot rods‘ and custom cars, and meeting all the big guys from the custom—you know, Carl Casper and Big Daddy Roth, I mean all these guys, they‘re California people, all these big names you see on TV and you know, I can do this and enjoy it and I don‘t even have to work the weekends if I don‘t want to, you know. 4:05 2 �Interviewer: But, they don’t give draft deferments for that. No, they didn‘t. At the time, when I first got my first induction notice, my girlfriend worked down on Main Street at the draft board down there, and that‘s where you went to sign up and get all your papers and that, and she said, ―Well, I‘ll just put your card back‖. It wasn‘t a number lottery thing, but just your name on a card, and she put my card back. Well, that lasted about three weeks and I ended up getting my notice to go. 5:00 The guys that I went to school with , Bob Taylor, his father was big in the National Guard, so at the time, towards the end of—we‘re talking about graduating, and now we‘re hearing—we got our draft notices and our cards are all 1-A and we‘re just waiting for our induction papers and Bob was trying to get everybody to join the National Guard, and just down the street from my house, two blocks, and thinking about it, we were all thinking seriously about it, and think out of the five of us that ran around as a group—of course Bob enlisted in the guard and his dad was a commander there and I think one or two of the other guys joined the guard. Well, I‘m thinking, ―If I join the guard, that‘s six years, and if I get drafted that‘s two years‖. 6:06 In high school I was taking up architecture and engineering and drafting and that sort of thing, and I thought maybe they could use somebody like that. I did auto upholstery and I thought they‘re going to need people to patch tents and fix Jeep tops and seats and that. I thought, I‘d take a chance, and I could do two years standing on my head, now that‘s what I thought. I got to thinking, ―Six years, two years, I can do two years standing on my head‖, and boy was I wrong. Interviewer: So, now you go down and you get the physical and so forth, now where do they send you for basic training? 3 �We went down to Fort Wayne in Detroit, that‘s the induction center and we were all processed through, just naked guys in a line getting shots. We‘re all fine and they couldn‘t find anything wrong with anybody, I don‘t think. 7:00 Interviewer: At that point, were there any people trying to find ways to beat the physical? Oh, everybody was trying to beat the system. Everybody, I mean, ―I got one leg that‘s shorter than the other‖, and it doesn‘t make any difference. ―I can only see out of one eye‖, ah, it doesn‘t make any difference, and we ended up going through that process and then they put you in a room and have you raise your right hand and swear you in as being enlisted in the service and they have you count off, 1,2,3. They had everybody in line and had you count off 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, and 3 and then they said, ―Everybody who‘s a number three step forward‖, and they said, ―Congratulations, you‘re a marine‖. They talk about the marin‘s never drafted, well, yes they did, and I was lucky to be a two that day, because all these guys, and I didn‘t want to be a marine, they were really in the deep stuff, you know. So, we left there and got on a prop plane at the Detroit airport, Willow Run, and it was the first time I‘d ever flown in a plane. 8:08 I‘d never been in a plane or ever been near one, and we get in this prop plane and one of the kids, the guys I want to school with, Craig Redman, we rode the bus down to Detroit together and talked and we sat together on the plane. I mean, he was like, even, my big brother at that time, I mean he was the one I---held me together, the first time I‘m on a plane, I‘m a nervous wreck, we‘re going—and I‘m just totally wiped out. We fly down to North Carolina because, normally, people from Michigan would go to Fort Knox or Fort Campbell, or someplace like that. Well, they were full, so we ended up at Fort Bragg down in North 4 �Carolina, nothing but sand and pine trees and I‘m thinking, ―I‘m kind of used to this being a Michigan guy, going up north, being at the beach, sand and pine trees‖, and man, was that a workout, sand and pine trees. 9:05 To this day if my wife says, ―Let‘s go to the beach‖, or ―The family‘s going to the beach‖, I said, ―Well, once they get all that sand cleared off the beach I‘ll be happy to go‖, because I do not like sand. Interviewer: What is the basic training experience like down there? Oh, I was a little guy, I only weighed--I was about five eleven and weighed a hundred and ten pounds and it was scary, I mean I was the small guy and you know, you gotta do all these big guy things and something you‘re really not used to. Big guy things being things like being able to do all these ladder bars and all these push ups and I wasn‘t conditioned for that. I did grow up out in Holt, on a farm, so I was used to farming and hunting and fishing and being in the woods. 10:03 As a kid we‘d go out and spear frogs and fry frog legs or catch some—swim in the river and catch fish, or go ice skating down the river and as a kid that‘s what I did. I was good with a rifle and we‘d go out with the bows and arrows and sling shots, and everybody had their twenty-two rifle, and that‘s what you did. That was my big downfall, I‘m thinking, I‘m not going back on my experiences as a kid, I‘m going on my experience as going through school and the job I had, you know, that would keep me out of being in the infantry. Well, needless to say, my youth came into play and I was good on the rifle range, so I ended up in the infantry unit. Interviewer: Now, when you were doing the physical training parts was there stuff they were telling you to do that you couldn’t do the first time? 11:00 Oh, definitely, yeah 5 �Interviewer: What happens to you at that point? You just try to do more. I mean, you‘re in this barracks with—this huge building with two floors and somebody‘s got to be up at night watching to make sure a fire doesn‘t break out. You get up at five o‘clock in the morning and go out and do calisthenics, then you run to a class, then you run to that class and then you come back for lunch and do calisthenics before—you have to do calisthenics and ladder bar before you can even get in the mess hall, and then you eat and run to wherever your next class is, and then you‘re out on the rifle range or some other range practicing, or you‘re doing pugil sticks where you‘re battling one another. You come back to the barracks and you‘ve got to clean, you got to scrub the floors, clean the latrines, and everything‘s got to be spotless. You‘ve got to polish your boots and then when the lights go out, then you have to write your letters home. 12:04 Just to put something in the mailbox, because there‘s not enough time, there‘s just not enough time, you‘re running just ragged. Interviewer: How much emphasis did they have on military discipline? Oh, everything was military discipline. You didn‘t talk to—you had to go through your little chain of command even from—you had to go to your squad leader, to your platoon leader, you couldn‘t just voice something unless you were asked, you didn‘t speak to anybody higher than that, you spoke to them first. The squad of five to seven guys, your squad leader was the one you went to, but your squad, everybody had to hold everybody together, because if one guy didn‘t then the next guy didn‘t do well. 13:05 The whole squad then falls and that puts you on another list and then you‘re doing KP and you‘re out picking up cigarette butts, just every nasty little thing you can think of they got you doing. You‘re trying to sneak food in because you‘re hungry and you want something. 6 �You know, I got caught sneaking in a can of coke to the barracks and had to do pushups, and then they tried to take the can away from me and at that point I‘m so annoyed that I‘ve done all these pushups and I want this can of coke. I grabbed it out of his hand and started drinking it, and, of course, that made things even worse, so that put me on KP for a while and a few more pushups every time and at that point I learned, ―Just be the little quiet guy in the corner‖, you know, keep your mouth shut, just follow the guy in front of you and don‘t look around. 14:01 That was what they wanted, that‘s what they wanted you to do, you follow the guy in front of you and do what he does and whoever‘s in front of him tells him what he going to do and the biggest thing was kill this and kill that. Everything you did was scream, holler and kill and that just worked you into that form, that form that they wanted you to be. I mean, at nineteen you‘re so—you‘re taking in everything you can and you‘re so impressionable that you just eat that up and then they tell you how big a man you‘re going to be and you‘re invincible, and that just sticks with you. The guys that are training us, the guys that are running us through all this are Vietnam vets that have just come back. 15:00 So, when you‘re having your breaks and you‘re sitting around and having a little BS session, these guys are in the middle and your eyes are this big around and just glued on them. Interviewer: Were they trying to give you some idea of what to expect? Oh yeah, and they said, ―What you learn here is nothing, you‘ll end up not using what you learned here, but you want to remember what you learned here because by being in that group is safety‖. If one guy does something and you know that‘s what he‘s going to do then that covers you, because if he‘s going to do this, you know he goes right and you 7 �could go left, you know, that‘s the way it‘s going to be. You had to have this line of first guy, second guy, everybody does what they do and you follow what they‘re doing. 16:00 Interviewer: They’re trying to prepare you to learn the stuff that you’ll really need. What they‘re preparing you for is the fact that things are going to die, people are going to die, it‘s going to be a lot going on, but they‘re preparing you just to be tough, I mean everything‘s about fight and kill and even the guys when you get in with the punji sticks and that fighting, you‘re out there to kill that guy, to do him harm and he may be your friend. He may be your friend, but if he can‘t take it, or you can‘t take it, somebody‘s going to die, that‘s what they put in your head. You gotta be physically fit and the road guards they had when you ran down the company—you ran everyplace you went, nobody walked, you ran. You ran down the company street and at the cross of it, where the street crosses, you had to have a road guard. 17:00 And he‘d run out, block out—one on each side of the road to block any vehicles or any traffic, so you guys could run through. They took the real big guys, the guys that were overweight, they were the crossing guards, so they had on these vests that lit up, reflected, but they‘d have to run up to the street and block it then you‘d run through. Well, they had to run up to the front again and catch everyone , so you could get to the next street, there wasn‘t the next guy in line that did that, those guys, that was their whole thing, and that was how they got them in shape. These guys, I had a guy that, Dipple was his name, I can‘t remember his first name, he was our crossing guard, I mean he was a big guy and he got into fantastic shape. Twenty years later I‘m out mowing the yard at home and he‘s moving into the house across the street. I looked at him and I thought, ―Gosh that guy‖, and I looked at him and it came to 8 �me, you know, here we are neighbors, you know, twenty years later I think it was at that time. 18:08 Interviewer: Now, were most of the men who were training along with you from Michigan and the Midwest, or were they from a lot of places? No, that was my biggest downfall as far as getting to reunions and that kind of thing. By being in North Carolina there was only one platoon of us that were from Michigan. Everybody else was from Tennessee, or Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, so that was all their area, so then when you went on with your service you were still—everybody was still in that same block. So, when we got done at Fort Bragg for basic, we went up to Fort Dix in New Jersey for AIT, which they called Advanced Individual Training, but it‘s Advanced Infantry Training, I mean that‘s all Dix was, and so, I‘m still with all these guys from down south. 19:03 I don‘t like sweet tea and banjo music, and I wasn‘t a country fan, country music fan, but here I am in the middle of these guys, you know. Interviewer: What kind of backgrounds did they have? Did you learn much about them? Oh yeah, I mean the guys from North Carolina, Bennett, Lyman Bennett, he saved my behind. He worked in a furniture factory. They had huge furniture factories and they would take up four or five blocks and they just built all this furniture. He worked in a furniture factory and a lot of them were just there because there was nothing else for them to do. We had guys that just got bumped out of school and the judge gave them a choice, you can do thirty days or three months or whatever, or join the military the end of the month. 20:05 9 �Interviewer: Did you have any guys that were a little bit older, maybe in college for a while and then out? We had-----in Vietnam and John Henrich was his name, but most of the guys I was with in basic and that, we were pretty much all the same age. Not too many college graduates in the south and maybe that was because we were in the south, but most of them, we were about the same age. I can‘t think of anybody, actually, that was a college graduate. Interviewer: There were a lot of guys that I run into that had done a year or two of college and then left for one reason or another, or their grades get bad and they wind up there, but in the south, even among the white population, not too many were necessarily going to college at that point, so that wouldn’t happen. What proportion of them were minorities do you think? 21:01 I would say, all but one or two of our drill sergeants were black. I guess I‘d have to go through and take out a picture. At that time I was just basically a farm kid that moved to Lansing and race had—I had no perception of race. I mean, one of my friends, Terry, in school, Terry, and just a few years ago we got back together for a class reunion and he‘s telling me he‘s black and I‘m thinking, ―Wait a minute, you were my best friend in school and you‘re not—―, well he was mixed race, yeah, and he said all the kids gave him a hard time in school and I said, ―Terry, I don‘t remember any of that. I don‘t remember us being that way‖. 22:01 I would say, in basic, probably a third were colored and it made no difference. They ran right along beside you, they crawled over mud right along beside you, they puked after coming out of the gas chamber with you, and like I say, our drill sergeants, all but one or two of them were colored and they were the nicest guys in the world. I mean, they were hard on us, but we knew shy they were hard on us. They 10 �were trying to prepare us for what they had already been through and they did a heck of a job. Interviewer: Now, how was Fort Dix different from Fort Bragg in terms of the training you got and the experience you had? Fort Dix was more parties, and Fort Bragg was by the book, straight up. At Fort Dix we flew home every weekend. 23:01 I mean, we‘d only have like a fifty mile pass and we‘d fly back to Michigan and there were five of us that flew back and forth to Michigan every weekend. Interviewer: How could you afford to fly back to Michigan? The ticket was sixteen dollars and fifty cents and it was thirty three dollars going back because coming to Michigan we‘d fly standby, so we‘d go on military standby for sixteen dollars and fifty cents. Coming back we‘d buy a regular ticket. Interviewer: You had to be sure you’d be back on time. Yeah, we had to be back on time. We got stuck in the air one time in a snow storm and we got back late, but nobody stayed on base as far as on the weekend and if they did, all they did was drink. I mean, you‘d come back on Sunday night and it‘s like being in a park atmosphere. 24:04 They got picnic tables and benches littered with beer cans and that kind of thing. Everybody at that point, everybody knew where they were going, because when you go to Advanced Infantry Training you‘re definitely low man on the totem pole. Two of my friends from basic, one guy, Don Wilhelm, slept above me and Steve Woodard slept in the next row of bunks, and Don was always upset, he lived in Petoskey, he was a ski instructor in the winter, his dad had a housing construction company that was there, so he worked there in the summertime building homes and had it 11 �made. Lived in Petoskey, beautiful, ski instructor in the winter, how much better can you have it? He was all upset about going. 25:00 When we got our orders to go, Steve and Don both got orders to be engineers and go to Alaska. I was pleased because of Don, you know, that‘s what he needed, somebody‘s looking out for him was my feeling. Interviewer: So, once in a while the army does something intelligent. Yeah, and the bad part is that it doesn‘t necessarily work in your favor. I got in probably—I was at a car show, of course working at the trim shop after coming back, probably about five years later, I was at a car show and ran into Steve. Weird, he was at the car show and we were talking, hadn‘t seen each other, and he said, ―You heard what happened to Don didn‘t you?‖ I said, ―No‖, and Steve-- it was the first time I ever seen him or wouldn‘t know Don, or have seen him, because of him being in Petoskey. 26:00 He said, ―Well, he came home on leave to get his car, he‘d just bought a new El Camino and he was driving it back up to Alaska and was hit by a train and killed‖. I still have pictures of the three of us outside the barracks. I still have that picture that I always set out and I always think about that. Interviewer: What did the training at Fort Dis actually consist of? What were you doing there? Well, at Dix I trained more into mortars, so most of our time, again, was physical, running here to there, learning to shoot the mortar, going to classes to shoot the mortar, learning to shoot the [M]60 machine gun, your rifle, qualifying with your rifle. 27:00 We didn‘t get to throw grenades, we threw rocks because the group that went through in front of us, the group that went through in front of us, somebody dropped a grenade in the pit and the guy was killed. They have a sergeant in there with you and he‘s teaching you 12 �how to throw the grenade because you‘re not supposed to throw it like you‘d normally throw something, you‘re supposed to do this special movement and everything. One went off and it killed the trainee and the sergeant was badly wounded. So, at that point they wouldn‘t let you throw grenades anymore, so we threw rocks out of the pit and see how close you could get to whatever it was you were throwing the rock at. Interviewer: Did you get to go to New York City at all? No, we went into Philly. We missed our flight once and we went into Philly. Not the good part of Philly. Around an airport you figure it‘s pretty much—but you can‘t believe the row houses, house on house, on house, and there‘s street, sidewalk, house and nothing between them and nothing that I‘m used to. 28:06 I‘m figuring I‘m a city boy, but the houses here in Lansing, they got room between them and you can move, and you‘ve got a little greenery, you know. There it was—and it was a pretty rough place there, but we spent most of the time going from bar to bar and being in uniform, we had to be in uniform to fly standby, military standby, and the bars, as long as we were paying they would give us beer. Interviewer: Now, this was 1969, did you ever get hassled by anybody because you were in uniform? No, because we weren‘t really out in the open. I mean the people in the bars, it was dark and they didn‘t—I don‘t think we went to the bars, actually, dressed in uniform. 29:00 I‘m trying to remember, I think we all had a ditty bag and we had shirts and pants in there. We had to go through the—well, after they got to know you, you didn‘t need to be in uniform, but we always—it was a race, there were five of us that always went from Michigan, so we‘d get in a cab outside the base and tell the cabby, ―There‘s an extra 13 �hundred dollars in it if you can get us to the airport on time‖ , because we just minutes from the time we got out until five o‘clock on Friday when the flight left. We flew Alleghany Airlines most of the time and we‘d run past the counter and toss our stuff to the ladies and they‘d have waiting there for us at the counter, because they got to know us, you know, eight weeks of doing this. We‘d run for the plane and they said, ―Hurry up‖, because they were getting ready to pull the boarding ramp. We‘d run to the gate and get on and there were only about three or four stewardesses on the plane and us, so we just, on the way back to Detroit, drink and talk to the stewardesses. 30:08 There would be nobody else on the plane. Interviewer: Now, was AIT sort of your last stage of training before Vietnam? Right Interviewer: So, at the end of AIT did you get to go home first? We got a thirty day leave. Towards the end they run you—they have what they call a mock Vietnam village, so they run you through that and you kind of do a little war game and that‘s sort of the highlight of your training at Fort Dix. Yeah, then we went home. We graduated from that, flew home and had a thirty day leave, and then my orders had me—I had, on this particular date, go to Fort Lewis in Washington and I was on my way. Interviewer: Now, at this point are you going in as a replacement, so you don’t know what unit you’ll go to or anything like that? 31:04 You have no idea, you‘re just a guy in an army uniform and they could be—even when you process. I went to the airport, got on a plane and flew up to Seattle, Washington, we spent the night in ta hotel again, there was the five of us, and we ended up going to the hotel for the night, and then the following morning we had to report, like six o‘clock 14 �in the morning, at the Fort Lewis, and at that point they process your paperwork and make sure your inoculations are all up to date, and give you—I don‘t think they give you any fatigues, I think you‘re still in your dress greens when you get there. 32:00 Interviewer: How long did you spend at Fort Lewis? Did they get you out right away or did you stay around a few days? We were gone that night. Yeah, we were out at the airport late in the night, one or two o‘clock in the morning. Interviewer: Where did it stop, or did it stop? It did, it stopped and I don‘t know just exactly which ones we stopped at, most of the time I slept. When I get on a plane I sleep most of the time. I know we stopped at Clark Air Force Base, and we stopped in Hawaii, I believe. Other than that, the only thing I remember is coming into Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: Were you on a military aircraft or was it a commercial one? It was a commercial aircraft and the stewardesses were all about sixty years old, because going into a combat area it was a high priority, high paid flight, so here you are a nineteen year old and you‘ve got all these forty and fifty year old stewardesses. 33:05 We were kind of bummed. You have to kind of laugh, because here we are going to a war zone and thinking, ―I‘m never going to see another woman and I‘ve got to spend twenty-two hours on a plane with my grandmother‖. That was the feeling. Interviewer: What kind of a day was it when you got into Vietnam? Did you land during the day or at night? We landed during the day, and I‘m not sure, but it was in the morning, I guess, around ten. 15 �Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there? Oh, it stunk. It was hot, and it stunk. The humidity, I mean they opened the door to this plane and it just hits you right in the face and would like to blow you right over. The heat is unbelievable, the humidity--and again, nothing but sand. Cam Ranh Bay, all you see is these huge sand dunes and everyplace you look is just all sand, nothing green. 34:08 You step out of that plane and the smell hits you and that place just stunk. I mean, it was the nastiest smell; it was like walking through a garbage dump, that‘s what is smelt like. Interviewer: Now, what time of the year was it? Was it about June or July? This is in July, July 12th. Interviewer: You get in and what did they do with you once you get off the plane? Basically they ran you through a place to get—kind of like a big—they call it a pole building now days, a big steel roofed building, and they give you clothes. You know, you got jungle fatigues and you‘ve got to get out of your dress greens, which was half the reason why you were sweating. 35:01 They gave you a duffle bag, clothes, underwear, socks and stuff. You could work through the line and get that and they had you go someplace, wherever you wanted to go, to barracks. Well, they didn‘t really have barracks, but they had like a big latrine washroom, kind of, where you could go and change and put your other stuff back in the duffle bag and it was just gone at that point. Interviewer: How long did you spend there? We were by that evening, I would say four or five o‘clock in the afternoon, we were on a bus out of there headed for—we went to Bien Hoa. You got on this bus and the first thing—all of a sudden you‘re dressed as a soldier now, and you‘re not looking spiffy, and you‘re thinking, ―They gave us all this stuff, but they didn‘t give us any weapons. 16 �What‘s going on?‖ 36:11 I heard how bad this is, we‘re in a war and they put you on this bus and it‘s got steel mesh, chicken wire, over the windows. You‘re wondering, and everybody starts talking, and all the rumors you hear, ―Well, that‘s so somebody doesn‘t run up and throw a grenade or something in the window‖, or whatever, and okay, were taking this bus and we ended up going to Bien Hoa and that was starting—it was outside—it was a big base camp and there were villages all around it outside of town. They had like these wooden hooches that were raised up off the ground a little ways and there‘d be about three laps of board and the rest of it was screen with a metal roof. They had these big old army tents, the JP Mediums and whatever is the largest they can get. 37:05 If they have the same sizes everywhere, I don‘t know, but it was like having to be in your underwear there, because inside the temperature is hot and those tents don‘t breathe. And again, we spent the night in there, no weapons, and this whole planeload of guys inside these tents and all this stuff going on around you and things. That night the ammo dump got hit, they mortared the ammo dump and that went up. You have nothing; you‘re running around, everybody‘s---Interviewer: What did you guys do? You just sit there and shiver and wonder what‘s going to happen. I mean, you pucker up real good on that, everything gets real tight. Interviewer: Nobody sends you to a bunker or anything like that? There‘s no bunker, you‘re in a compound and the bunkers are way out beyond where you can see where you‘re at. 38:02 We were in those tents all night long, bugs, mosquitoes, the heat, it was just nasty. Everybody was hot and sweaty and you couldn‘t hardly get a breath it was so heavy, the air was so heavy. The next morning came and they started 17 �lining us up, and you know, and say where you‘re going to go and who you‘re going--they‘re checking your paperwork again and filling out all your paperwork. You‘re going to be assigned to—Greg ended up being assigned to the 1st Cav, he was the one that I buddied up with and we were both from Lansing and our wives new each other. Our family—we knew from thirty days of leave time we spent a lot of time picnicking and cookouts at his house and his parents‘ house, and my parents‘ house, so we got to know each other and we got split up at that point. 39:03 He went with the 1st Cav and I ended up with the 101st. Then it was a matter of, you have your group, ―you guys are going to the 101st, wait here and the truck will come and get you‖. They put you on a plane, they put you on a cargo plane, and we ended up going up to Camp Evans, which was up by Phu Bai, and that was out major basecamp for us. We got there and everybody—people were there, there was a clerk, five or six of them, calling out names, ―You go with this company, you go to this side‖, so I ended up by myself, going with Echo Company, the 2nd of 506 [2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, 101Airborne Division]. That‘s how I got to that company. Then I got in there and they—into the company area, and then I started getting all my equipment. 40:02 They started loading me down with all my equipment, rucksack, finally got a weapon and, ―What do you want to carry? My stupid behind, I picked a M79 grenade launcher and thought that would be really neat. I was trained in mortars and I was one of the best that went through the class, and I‘m thinking, ―Bump gun, mortar, things blooping out of a tube, I got it made‖. Interviewer: Did you get assigned to a mortar unit? Oh yeah, Echo Company was mortars and recon and crew served equipment, light crew served thing, meaning it took more than one person, like with a machine gun you had 18 �your gunner and your ammo bearer, so it was that kind of a thing. When I got to Camp Evans , I got assigned to Echo Company and they loaded me up with all my gear and stuff and said, ―go out to the chopper pad, they‘re going to take some mail out to the firebase, a firebase called Berchtesgaden in the A Shau Valley. 41:05 It was the worst place you want to be. On a firebase in the A Shau, the only thing worse than that is walking through the A Shau Valley, no different. Got you out to the helicopter pad, you wait for the helicopter, and go out with the mail. I‘m setting out there and some guy, one of the guys that were out there had come in for medical reasons, or something, or came in to get something, I don‘t remember, but we sat and talked. He‘s telling me, ―Oh, you‘ll love it out there. I‘m going to introduce you to Suzy when we get out there‖, and I‘m thinking, ―Suzy, a female?‖ On the firebase he‘s always telling me about Suzy, he‘s always telling me about Suzy, and finally--we sat there like three days until dark and then we‘d go back to the hooch and spend the night. 42:02 Then we‘d come back out and sit on the chopper pad. Now, this is steel planking you‘re sitting on and it‘s called PSP, perforated steel planking, it‘s got holes in it, so when the helicopters land on it they don‘t blow stuff around, dirt and that. When you‘re sitting on that it‘s a hundred and seven degrees and there‘s no shade. Interviewer: So, you’re just sitting there waiting for a helicopter? Just waiting for a helicopter and sweating. Getting used to the atmosphere and sweating, and getting a little more used to the atmosphere and sweating and trying to find something to drink. Interviewer: Didn’t you get sunburned sitting out there? 19 �Oh yeah, you get sunburned and you get dark and you just stay dark after that. Finally we got a helicopter to go out and that‘s the first time I‘d ever flown in a helicopter. I‘m thinking, ―Hop in the helicopter, close the doors, no big deal‖. That‘s not going to happen either. The stuff goes in and then you go in and then you‘re sitting on the edge of the helicopter with your feet hanging out. 43:01 Interviewer: so this is a Huey or a smaller helicopter, not a Chinook? It‘s a Huey, not a Chinook, and most of the time we flew in Hueys, but you‘re sitting there and just hanging out, and you got your rucksack on you. When you tip you‘d think you‘d fall out and it‘s a weird feeling, but you‘re hanging on and your knuckles are turning white. You‘re hanging on and the door gunner is just getting a kick out of it because we got a newbie, we got a cherry here, everybody was called cherries when they first came in country. Scared shitless, I mean, just unbelievable, and you‘re flying along at treetop level and you got nothing out there but the tops of trees and the jungle. Flying along and up all these mountains, and Berchtesgaden was up there and I think it was like 870 meters high, and that‘s pretty tall. 44:02 You get out on the chopper pad and you sit out there and you‘re in the middle of two mountain tops with a saddle in between it and artillery was on this side and mortars was this side with bunkers around it and concertina wire, and that‘s where all the grunts pulled guard, that‘s where you pulled guard and stuff. You get out there and finally get to meet Suzy, which his name was actually Roland and everybody just called him Suzy, and that was the big joke of the—everybody had the big laugh on the new guy, ―Oh yeah, he thought we were ―, okay. So, they put me in hooch and I buddied up—they put me in my squad, which George Bourdwyn [?] was the squad leader, and he was the gunner. There were only like four of us on the gun. 20 �45:00 There were three mortars on the mountain top, on our side of the mountain top. Two H-E with high explosives in it and we had, down in the saddle where the helicopter land, we had a mortar pit down there, but that just fired lamination, so when something happened you‘d fire lamination to light it up and see what was going on. The H-E pits didn‘t have that and they didn‘t have H-E down at the lamination pit, but I worked with George up in the mortars and H-E pit. It was right on the side of the mountain, I mean, you look over the side, concertina wire, and just nothing but air, right straight down the mountain. George and I got along really great, you know and he was the best there was at the time. Then we had Bennett who came in with me, he was already out there, we went through AIT and basic together. 46:04 Bennett was from North Carolina and he worked in a furniture factory. He was my ammo bearer, I ended up being the gunner, and George ended up being the squad leader. Interviewer: At what point did you become the gunner? Was that right away? It was that day, right that day. This whole thing—at that point, right then, it was in top pitch with George, he was the best, and I‘ll get to George in a minute, but I had a lot to live up to. I mean, he was the best, and of course, I just came from the states and I was the best, so I was the gunner that day. Bennett, he would fire, he‘d cut the charges off the rounds and drop them down tube, I‘d set the gun up and we fired right from that moment. I‘ve got a picture of George and I standing together because we both carried our thump guns. 47:02 The picture was taken on George‘s birthday and he had just turned seventeen and he‘d been there six months. Interviewer: How did that work? 21 �His parents signed him up, and he‘d turned seventeen in the picture, and I‘d just gotten in country and he‘d been there six months, but George was good. He taught me everything I could possibly know about Vietnam. If you didn‘t buddy up with somebody when you were there your chance of making it was, maybe, two weeks. Interviewer: Not everybody got a very good reception when they joined a unit, and had a lot to do with what unit you were with and what the guys were like. In this case you had people right away telling you what to do and giving you some responsibility and so forth. Were you firing the mortars from the very first day? From the very first day, yeah, and what we had out there, we had a thing called a mad minute. 48:03 At this particular time every night you‘d fire everything, so that‘s where I got my experience. You‘d just fire a mortar just to fire it, it didn‘t make any difference, chopper in some more when you got done the next day and you‘d fire it. Our pit was built right along the edge of the mountain and like I say, it was right straight down to the valley from there. We‘d fire them up at zero charge and try to catch them as they went by outside the pit, which the stupidity of a nineteen year old the first thing is if you hit the end it‘s probably going to explode, and if you do catch it, it‘s probably going to rip your arm off because there‘s fins, tail fins and those things are going to mess you up. I was just the idea, you know, that maybe we could do this. We‘d have a mad minute, and it would be dark, usually around nine or ten o‘clock at night. 49:02 Everybody on the bunker line would start and open up, throwing grenades, firing their 60‘s and their 16‘s and thump guns, I‘d fire my thump gun and fire the mortars. Interviewer: Did they tell you what the logic was in doing that? 22 �No, we just figured it was so we could get practice firing things and maybe whatever was there we might scare away. This went for—I was there less than a month and we did that, and I had the bright idea, ―Okay, we‘ve been doing this every night‖, and this came down from the big guys, and artillery‘s firing too, ―If we do this every night at the same time. Let‘s screw them up and do another one‖, so they decided ten minutes after we do the first one, we‘ll do another one, just to screw things up. Sure enough—we always sat up a bunker line every night and watched Kirby down in the valley, they‘d get overrun every night, and they‘d get hit every night. 50:04 You‘d watch the green tracers, and the mortars, and the red tracers going in and out, and all the flashes from the grenades and artillery and everything. We‘d sit on the bunker line and watch that every night down the hill. They were down in the valley and we‘d sit and watch them every night and this night it didn‘t happen and we were all bummed and we were back in playing cards. Mad minute time, time for our mad minute came up, we had our mad minute and we all went back in the hooch and we were going to play cards again. We‘d get five or ten minutes and we‘ve got to get back out and everybody‘s getting everything, and getting back out there, and we started having our next mad minute. Well, the gooks were coming after us that night and when we had our mad minute, they thought we‘d spotted them, that they‘d been seen, but they hadn‘t. They were coming up through the garbage dump and all around the mountain and coming up after us. 51:02 Interviewer: So, how did you know they were there? When they started shooting and when things started coming back. You know, ―Wait a minute; this isn‘t all something going out‖. I could actually sit and hear the mortar rounds come. They were walking like a zee down the mountain and they got our number 23 �one gun at the top, the A-T gun at the top, and they were trying—mine was kind of over, but they missed it and were coming down, and I don‘t know if they ran out or decided to change, but they just—that‘s as far as they got. So, they‘re coming after us, coming up the hill, and a matter of fact, they‘re in the light, they‘re so close you could see the muzzle flashes. Now that our number one A-T gun is out, it‘s been hit with the mortars, Bennett and I now went down to work the illumination, and Bennett‘s popping illumination and I‘m running up to the A-T pit and getting some mortars and bringing them down to that gun so I could help fire that gun besides firing illumination. 52:08 So, I‘m running up and down the side of the mountain and we got ammo crates put in like steps, and the pit wall is about yea high and it‘s sandbagged. I‘m running up and grabbing three rounds and running down and putting them down there and George is firing that gun and I‘m running back up and getting three—Bennett‘s firing the illumination while I‘m bringing the rounds down too. Things get tight, you know, we could get from the other pit and do that, and I‘m running back and forth, I come running down with three and throw them down and go to run back up and somebody grabs my leg and I trip and fall on these boxes we‘ve got for steps. I mean, I‘m hurt and I‘m pissed, what the hell, you know; somebody grabbed my leg and tripped me and put me down. By the time I got done rolling around Bennett‘s looking around the corner and he said, ―You can‘t do that, they‘re shooting at you every time you run up that hill. 53:05 Sure enough, there‘s the dump and it‘s right where I‘m running, the opening for our illumination gun. So, by him tripping me he probably saved my life. Interviewer: How did you know what to shoot at with the mortar at that point? 24 �You have what you call D-T‘s, delta tangos, and they‘re designated targets. So when you‘re not doing something, which is not very often, but on a firebase, you‘re shooting these delta tangos and you got them all numbered. Somebody will say, you know—you don‘t have to have it, you got it on your board, you know where this one—they‘ll say, ―I need a double tango right‖—whatever, and you know where that is and you got it right there. I need it a yard from there or two yards, whatever, so you just fire it, because everybody out there‘s coming at you and there‘s nobody out there you‘re going to kill that will make any difference to you that could get you into trouble. 54:11 You set them up and fire, you don‘t necessarily wait. What you do wait for is if you get a call and they say that they‘ve seen a mortar, or somebody—an area where there‘s a group of guys, Vietnamese coming after you, or coming up there, or if they see a mortar tube that‘s firing at you, then your job is to take the tube out, to take that stuff out, so in all of this you‘re doing all these things. You‘re shooting illuminations that light up the firebase, so the grunts can see, the guys in the bunkers can see if somebody‘s coming up, and then you‘re firing the other ones to keep whoever‘s coming up away from the edge of you, but you know how far out you can fire, I mean you don‘t have any friendly‘s out there, so as long as you clear the bunker line, you got to be so many yards out past the bunker line, ―danger close‖ is what they call it for the other ones and you can‘t fire within that area. 55:10 Interviewer: How long did the fire fight last do you think? It started around dark, probably about—we wrapped our first things—probably around ten o‘clock, I think it started, maybe and lasted until about daybreak. Interviewer: It was a pretty serious ongoing thing? 25 �They were sending a good sized group came up and we ended up with thirty seven bodies inside the wire. They were going after artillery, so that was the other mountain top, so they were coming up from that [side] trying to get over to artillery, although they were shooting everybody. They had thirty seven guys in the wire, bodies inside the firebase. They were going after the artillery TOC, which is the control. 56:00 They did wound the artillery commander, but most of them, a good share of them were found around our artillery, but there were thirty seven. Then in the morning you‘re out policing everything and cleaning everything up. We took all the bodies and laid out cargo net and piled all the bodies up on the cargo net and I mean it was probably six or seven feet tall with all these body‘s we had piled up there and it was like mannequins, wax mannequins, you don‘t think of them as being anything more than that. Interviewer: You had never seen a dead body before had you? No, no, other than in a suit and tie in a coffin. That‘s quite a—this was—I had only been in country maybe a month. You go through a week of P training when you first get there and that‘s when they get used to you sending you to your unit when you‘re at Bien Hoa and then setting on the chopper pad for three days and then getting out there. 57:02 Yeah, about a month and we were overrun. I was in a place and, of course, now I‘m not a cherry because you‘ve been in a firefight and that. Interviewer: Was that the only major fight you had while you were at Berchtesgaden? Yeah, right after that they pulled everybody. The monsoons were coming, so they pulled everybody. They were taking everybody off of the valley, out of that area of the country because they couldn‘t get helicopters in. it would cloud up so bad that you couldn‘t see . 26 �I mean, you could stick your arm out into a cloud and it was like your arm was gone. You couldn‘t see from your elbow down that was a cloud. That‘s how thick it got, and between that and the rain you couldn‘t resupply you. It was really hard to hump in the jungle in the rain and everything was just so slimy, dead and slimy and rotted and everything was just crummy. 58:06 Back to the guys—we put all the guys, the bodies we had we put them in a cargo net and put our death cards on them, and hooked the cargo net up to a Chinook, a Chinook came in and we hooked the cargo net up to the Chinook and had them fly them out over the valley and let go. It rained bodies for quite some time. Interviewer: You said death cards, what? You had a—at that time, before they banned them, it was a card saying who you were and a lot of them were—they were like playing cards. Our playing cards had—they were all the same card, the ace of spades. Wow, being the 2nd of the 506 our unit designation is a spade, like the 502‘s is a heart. During WWII this happened, they had it painted on the backs of their helmets so they could designate the unit that you were from. 59:04 Ours was spades, so we had the ace of spades. Interviewer: Sending a message to the enemy, in effect, by attaching the cards to them and then just depositing them. Literally, through the whole jungle because I‘m sure they covered a fifteen or twenty mile area by the cleaning. Yeah, we put them in their mouths. Once we‘d done that and collected a few odd items they were taken away and then the next day is when I got my really best sunburn, my whole body, I mean, I was sunburned because they brought in all this ammo and it is helicopter after helicopter bringing in ammo and a new gun. We had 27 �to rebuild the pit and you‘re talking humping up these stairs we built from these ammo boxes up the side of the mountain. 00 :04 Your carrying a carton, a box—mortars come in a box that weighs fifty six pounds and there‘s three mortars in there and you‘re carrying one on each shoulder and when you got good, you got one crossways, so you had three mortar boxes on each shoulder once you got your strength. I could do two, so the thing goes on, the physical part of it. You‘re running these all day long, opening them up and putting them in—all out tubes—all our guns were –one wall was nothing but mortar tubes, empty tubes, and you put new mortars in them, so that way they were all open and they were covered with a sheet of plastic, but then you‘d pull them out to fire them. Interviewer: Now, did you run through that ammunition before they abandoned the firebase? If you leave the firebase did they blow it up behind you? 1:05 Yeah, we left the firebase and it was just—it was probably three weeks to a month after we were overrun that we left and they took us back to Camp Evans Interviewer: About how long, overall, do you think you were there? Six weeks? I don‘t even think six weeks. No, I would say four or five; maybe it was close to six, I don‘t know how long we were there. Interviewer: After that big attack, did the enemy try again? I don‘t recall anything going on after that. Interviewer: Would they just periodically lob mortar rounds at the base, or snipe at it? 2:05 Generally they‘d send in—they‘d hit you with mortar rounds and then they‘d send in sappers. What they would do-- these guys would run up to the concertina wire and one of 28 �them would just lay himself on top of it and the rest of them would run up in back to get through the wire. That stuff about them crawling through the wire, that‘s, maybe, when they were first starting to do it and they were trying to be a little bit sneaky, but when it came to a sapper attack, they‘d just run up and one guy would throw himself on the wire and if he had a satchel charge , or something, they‘d blow it, but generally speaking they all just carried satchel charges and they‘d run from hooch to hooch or where they thought the TOC was at, you know, to get bigger name people rather than just the lowly grunt on the bunker line. 3:01 Interviewer: Okay, so they didn’t necessarily attack you on the perimeter, they would go in and look for the main TOC? Yeah, they‘d kind of get you going on one side or the other and then kind of sneak in. It‘s a lot like when you get into an ambush. I—after we did Berchtesgaden, they closed that out, and then they probably just bombed most of it into oblivion. Then we went to Eagle Beach and spent a week at Eagle Beach and that was just—it was during a typhoon. They have these big towers you‘re standing in and they‘re like these huge telephone poles, there‘s four of them and then there‘s a deck with a little thatched roof on it and I don‘t know if you‘re watching for submarines or what, but you had to pull guard and I happened to get it the night the typhoon came through. So, we just tied ourselves to the big poles and went through the typhoon that way, and I mean, everything was blowing over. 4:03 At Eagle Beach there were Seabees and there were large petroleum containers and that‘s where they kept a lot of the fuel and that was down by Hue, that‘s south. Interviewer: So that was basically in country R&R or was supposed to be? 29 �Kind of like in country, yeah, but that was actually—they‘d have these Vietnamese and Korean groups come in and sing all these American songs and free beer, all the beer you could drink. It was good food because there was a Seabee base there, so you could go through their mess hall. We broke into it a couple times to get stuff from there. Then we ended up going back up north and going to different firebases. We worked out from a firebase Jack and that was kind of in the lowlands with mountains on one side and flatlands on the other side. 5:09 Waiting for the monsoons you‘d kind of--then we came and kind of circled our area of operations and headed up and took over for the marines up at the DMZ. So, we worked the Rockpile and Camp Carroll. The marines were pulling out at that time, and the 3rd Marine Battalion [Division?] was leaving and we were taking over for them, so we ended up being up there at the Rockpile, which supposedly the marines had been overrun four or five times, or six times, or something. We couldn‘t even stay on it, let alone have somebody running it. It was just straight up and down with this red clay and if you got out of your foxhole, or your bunker, you had to tie a rope around your waist. 6:04 We‘d have guys that slipped right down the side of the mountain, through the concertina wire and everything, it was just so slippery and you couldn‘t get a footing, so how—there was only one way up there and that was on a ridgeline, there was only one way up it and I don‘t know how they built a huge chopper pad on top of it. Well, they had to build this—it looked like a deck, a huge deck from now days and enough to land a helicopter on because it was so pointed you couldn‘t land a helicopter on the top of this mountain because it was just so steep. So, they built this huge chopper pad on top of the mountain, so they could just land and drop supplies off. Interviewer: How long were you staying at these places? 30 �It would all depend, we‘d go in there and work the area and see how much activity was going on, what we‘d run into. Like at the DMZ you‘d kind of see how many—if there was a big force building up there, then you‘d go and work on that, then they‘d rotate you out and bring in another unit. 7:06 The way we worked our unit is we went in first and set things up as far as securing the area, so just recon the area to find out what was going on, and find out if—well work was—well, that was your job. Your job was to walk around the mountains and walk around the jungle and find out who was out there. Find people and kill them, basically that was work. That was what the government was paying us for. Interviewer: As a mortar crewman, would you normally stay on the firebase when the men would go out, or would you go out with them? Well, normally we‘d go from firebase to firebase, we‘d be one of the first ones out to set up the firebase, as far as for security. 8:01 I mean, they‘d bring other people out there digging bunkers, but you‘d go out there and dig a hole to put your gun upon, or your tube, and you‘d just be out there with the line company and they‘d start bringing people in and you‘d move off, and we used to hump our mortars with—we helped a lot with Chuck Hawkins from Alpha Company, and Chuck liked us and he called us his mobile artillery, so we did a lot with humping mortars with him. But, we‘d go out and hump and you may be out for thirty days or four, five, six weeks, and then they‘d bring you back into a firebase and that was kind of our little R&R, and they‘d send another tube out to be with them, so we kind of—we‘d get—it was kind of our refresher kind of thing. Get a break and get our act together, clean clothes and a shower, maybe, and just some normal food sometimes. 9:06 31 �Interviewer: Now, would this just be your squad that would be attached to a unit, or would the whole platoon go? No, it would just be my squad. Interviewer: So, you bring one mortar tube with you and the four guys, and you’re just attached, so you’re the portable artillery for the companies that are out there patrolling, you are out there with them. So, then you had all these people you‘re out fighting against, the Vietnamese, that didn‘t like you, but you‘re with all these U.S. Army guys that didn‘t like you, because every grunt, all the line guys, had to carry two mortar rounds. We had to carry the same thing, but everybody had to carry two hundred and fifty rounds of machine gun ammunition. That came down to us too, we had to carry a rifle, and I started out with a thump gun and then I went to a sixteen, I went to an XM-203 over and under. We had to do the same thing; we had to carry a full load of ammunition, a twenty one magazine if you had an M16. 10:06 Twenty one magazine, a dozen grenades, two blocks of C-4, two claymores, a law, if you were humping the mortar you had to—I was the gunner, so I humped the sight, and Bennett humped the base plate and Dave McCain humped the tube. I mean you're talking—the base weighed sixty pounds, you put that in your rucksack and your rucksack‘s already eighty five to a hundred pounds, so you‘re carrying a lot of weight. It doesn‘t—you get on a helicopter—you get on a helicopter with that stuff and you get off with that stuff, it doesn‘t come later, it‘s not individually wrapped. If you don‘t have it, you don‘t have it, and if you‘re missing one of the parts of your gun, you might as well have left everything behind, because you don‘t have everything. So, we went out with Alpha Company, with Chuck Hawkins, and we humped that and everybody would hump 32 �two mortar rounds and they didn‘t like it, so they didn‘t like us. We really didn‘t get to know them. 11:07 We didn‘t know the line guys that we were with, we were out with them for months at a time, but, basically, it was more along—the only way you really got to know them was trading food and cigarettes, you know, that kind of thing. Interviewer: When you’re out there in the field with the line company, about how many soldiers would these companies usually have? A normal company would have a hundred and twenty I‘d say. We were never normal, you might be out there with forty five, not very many guys. Interviewer: You were also involved in the Ripcord operation and some of the companies that were fighting around that firebase were down to thirty and even fifteen at certain points, not really big groups. We got down to where it was just three of us at the mortar. George left and then it became—Bennett left, they took him out of my squad and took him down to the 1st Cav. 12:05 They needed guys down there and we needed them too. I lost Bennett, and I had—it was my self and McCain. Interviewer: Did they give you a replacement at that point? Did you get a new guy? No we didn‘t, we dealt with who we had, so you became everybody. ―Pops ―was a— ―Pops‖, I was going to tell you about the older guy, he was our FDC, fire direction control, and he was a college graduate, so when he came, we were all nineteen and he was twenty five, so that‘s how he got the name ―Pops‖. To this day when he calls, ―Hey this is Pops‖, whenever we get together everybody calls him ―Pops‖, it‘s him that‘s the whole thing. But, most of the guys that we were with; ―Pops‖ didn‘t hunt for the best spots at the fire range. 13:00 I was trying to remember, he was at the last reunion and 33 �we had dinner with him, Kilgore, James. I didn‘t know his first name until we had a reunion. Kilgore, everybody called him Kilgore and everybody had a nick name, nobody was called—I was always called ―Whip‖, and even today. Everybody had— ―Tennessee‖, I think his name was ―Tennessee", and McCain, we just called him McCain you really didn‘t get to---you were close, but yet you were distant. You didn‘t want to know anybody that well because they were just going to die and you didn‘t need that extra burden, and for me, my burden being the squad leader and those my guys. 14:04 It takes a real load, I mean you don‘t want to be a squad leader because then you‘d have to—I had to not only take care of myself, but I had to take care of them and make sure they had what they needed and I didn‘t want them to get hurt, it‘s a real hard thing. Interviewer: Did you spend a full twelve month tour in Vietnam? I spent twelve months in Vietnam, I had an R&R, a week's worth of R&R, which actually ended up taking up ten days. My ―P‖ training, which was a week coming in country, the three days I sat on the firebase, and the seven days I spent—at the middle of my tour they brought us back for what they call a refresher training to tell us what was going on in the area and who we were up against and what they were doing, the kind of booby traps they were using, and weapons. A total of all but thirty one days I was out in the jungle. 15:00 Interviewer: Now, after that initial assignment down by the A Shau, were you pretty much in that northern part of Vietnam the rest of the time? We just—we took over for the marines up there , cleared that area, got things back in kind of operating order and then they brought in ARVNs, and they brought in people from other parts of the 101st or different units to take over up there and then we‘d go to someplace else. We rotated back down—the problem with the monsoons, the monsoons 34 �kind of go around the country, and now were kind of at the top of the country, in the north and the monsoons are coming back down, so we‘re coming back into the valley, so now we‘re working—coming in like Camp Carroll and then Khe Sanh, and we started in at—actually we started in at the bottom of the country and they wanted to build a road up through the A Shau, so we started out at Birmingham and went to Bastogne. 16:05 All the 101st firebases were named after WWII battles. The firebase, when you first came to it at the bottom of the valley was Birmingham and then you went Bastogne, and we went up the valley. We went up with the line company and they were going to try—we were going to clear the area and they were going to come in with engineers and build a road after we checked out the area and made sure that we got whoever was in there out and find out who they had to fight against, the of battle they will have. Interviewer: That’s still pretty far north in South Vietnam, so you’re not by Saigon or the Cambodian border, you’re pretty much up north? No, you divide the country into five different courts and we were in I court and actually, we were in northern I Corps, so if I Corps is this big we were just in this part of it, and that was just---from way north. 17:04 Interviewer: Now, over the course of this year that you’re with the unit, how would you characterize the morale of the men in the ranks at this point? We were good, we were so good that—we loved what we were doing. The morale—we were never in the rear where we had problems. The cooks and the guys in the rear were the ones there were problems with, the guys in the field; it was a family, and again, you didn‘t want to be close, but you couldn‘t help it, you‘re a family. I don‘t care if you didn‘t know the guys first name, if something were to happen to him—you‘d be torn up if 35 �something were to happen to him. You were close, you were a family and we were good, the whole unit. We went through and we did what we were supposed to be doing. 18:04 Interviewer: Over the course of the year some men will become casualties, others will simply rotate out, so you’re getting the people coming in and you go from being a cherry to being one of the old guys and so forth. Did the unit’s performance stay pretty much at the same level the whole time? Yeah, and because we were good, not because of the quality of the guy coming in, it was because we were good and we could teach him, ―This is how you do it, and this is how to be good‖. How you‘re good is your morale is up, you know what you‘re doing, and you‘re family, I mean a new guy comes in and he gets a ton of ribbing, everybody‘s on him about being a cherry and all this other stuff, and he always gets—the big thing we did with them when we were out with the line companies, or even on the firebase, when you get a new guy in you tell him all these stories. 19:03 This one guy came in and they came in and cut off his—and did this, and all these nasty things, you know, and you got sleep because this guy was up all night, you didn‘t have to worry about pulling guard. This guy was so scared he wasn‘t going to sleep for a week, and that‘s what you did with a new guy and you actually cheated him out of his sleep, so you could have sleep. Normally you‘d get—you‘d be on guard for an hour and then you‘d be off for two and then you‘d be back on, and that was kind of a rotation. Usually there were three guys in a foxhole, or when you‘re out, and eight on the bunker line, generally three guys, so that way you got an hour on and two hours off. That was the total amount of sleep you get because when you‘re in daylight you‘re moving you‘re not able to and when it‘s nighttime you‘re not able to sleep any more than that. 20:01 So, when you get a new 36 �guy you use him and just give him everything to carry. ―Oh, you‘re going to need this and this‖, so you‘d load him down with everything you could find. Interviewer: You were giving him attention. Sometimes new guys would come in and get ignored. No, I don‘t think any of them got ignored, not in our set up, we were different, we were, like I said, we were really different. Interviewer: How much of a sense did you have of what was going on in the larger war or conflict during the time you were there? Did you have any sense of how what you were doing fit into a larger plan? We‘d get newspapers. I‘d usually get a newspaper in the mail and you‘d get an idea of what was going on in the world and what they were talking about, but it never matched what was going on. I always had to write letters home to let them know that this isn‘t really what‘s going on here. 21:00 It might be other places, but where we‘re at—but you never could tell them what was going on either because you didn‘t want to scare the heck out of everybody and in most of my letters I sent home I said, ―Oh, it‘s raining here, the weather's terrible, we don‘t get any sleep, things are nasty, the bugs‖, that‘s all you really dared to say. You couldn‘t tell about what was really going on. Interviewer: Now, did they send you stuff from home? Yes Interviewer: What kinds of things did they send you? Cookies and crumbled cakes and, oh, the church would send you cookies. By the time you got them it was just one big jumble of—but when somebody got a care package from home everybody was there to eat it, and like I said, that was family. You didn‘t—―You 37 �can‘t have any because you‘re not part of our group‖. No, when that was opened up it was gone in a heartbeat. 22:00 It didn‘t make any difference what it was, it could be— we‘d get Kool Aid because the water came in water blivets and it tasted like rubber, so you had to have something to pour in it, so you‘d get Kool Aid, gum, candy, just about anything. If it was food or anything like that, it would be destroyed before—nothing that couldn‘t put up with the weather would make it, because your mail wasn‘t necessarily, it wasn‘t a quick thing and you might get mail once a week rather than once a day. I don‘t think we ever go mail once a day. On the firebase you might get mail once a day because the choppers come in and out. They throw out a mail bag and clean clothes. One of our pictures inside one of our hooches you can see we got fresh onion and catsup and Tabasco and that was some that McCain had gotten. 23:02 Interviewer: Did you normally just eat C rations and K rations? Just C rations, that‘s all we ever had. We‘d get—if we had a body count we‘d get clean clothes and ice cream and that was—you‘ll see on one of my helmets, and on the other guys helmets, everybody had their own little slogan, or saying and mine said, ―We kill for ice cream‖, which was true, because if we had a body count they‘d send out helicopters and they‘d generally send out ice cream and clean clothes. Ice cream would come into— ice cream would come in marmite [cans] and by the time you got it, it was pretty much melted away. The clean clothes would come in a big bag and they‘d kick the bag out of the helicopter in the middle of the landing pad and everybody would run out there and grab it and dump all the clothes, so what you got was what you could grab quick, so if you were the last guy there, your clothes didn‘t necessarily fit you. 24:02 38 You may be �a big guy and have on some smalls until you can find somebody to trade with you wore what you had. Interviewer: Would the clothes deteriorate in that kind of climate? They would rot like there‘s no tomorrow. You didn‘t wear underwear, you‘d get socks. I never took my boots off ever. At night you always had your boots on and your clothes on, even going in the stream, you might take your shirt off to shower in the stream. Interviewer: What happens to your feet if you never take your boots off? Well, you‘d take them off as far as to clean your feet and to wash your feet in the powder room, but then you‘d put your boots right back on. The biggest thing you‘d want is socks. Socks were the biggest thing to have, but the clothes, in a matter of weeks your shirt and pants would be shredded. If you got into any kind of ―wait a minute vines‖, or anything like that—like these humongous rose bushes, no flowers, just thorns, and if you‘d get in those it might take two or three guys to get you out. 25:06 If you happen to walk into one of those and you get trapped it would take two or three guys to chop you out of there with machetes, and you don‘t dare move because you‘d get torn up and anytime you got a cut it got infected. That was one thing, and that‘s why you always had your shirt sleeves down and always covered up, just to keep from getting infected. You‘d get into leaches—you walk through the jungle and you‘d think it was raining, you‘d hear this pitter patter on the leaves and the floor of the jungle, and kind of darker than normal, you think it‘s raining and it‘s leaches falling from the trees. Interviewer: How do you get rid of the leaches? You have a real good friend, because you get leaches in places you don‘t want leaches and you can‘t reach the leaches sometimes. You got some friends and generally you can 39 �put a cigarette on them and make them let go, or you pour our insect repellent on them. 26:06 Our insect repellent was seventy five percent Deet, well now you buy insect repellent and it doesn‘t have more than seven percent Deet. You pour those on the leaches and it would make them get off, but it would go right into the sore that you have, so that would get infected, so that‘s why some guy‘s skin just rots away. They tell you this is going to happen. Because you don‘t have chlorine in the water your teeth are going to go bad and they tell you that, the government tells you this, and if you use the stuff--but you got to use the stuff to keep the bugs off, the leeches off of you, and you‘d see a lot of guys with stings, laces tied around their knees and that and their boot bloused. Of the leeches got past your boots and got up into your secondary defense, which was the string around your knees. 27:06 So, that‘s why you see a lot of those—they weren‘t holding anything on, it‘s protection to keep the leeches out. Interviewer: Is that the kind of thing the other guys teach you pretty quickly when you get there? Yeah, oh yeah, leeches, and checking you helmet and you take your boots off to check those for, not tarantulas, but scorpions, we had some guys bit by scorpions. You set your helmet down and you sit on it, normally, and if you don‘t they crawl in there and you put it on and they sting you. They weren‘t the kind that would kill you, but it would affect your nervous system, and you‘d go into convulsions. We had quite a few guys that they had to ship back and call in a medevac to get them out of there and get them back to the hospital--we didn‘t have the care for them. Interviewer: So there was a lot more out there that was dangerous. Not just the Vietnamese themselves? 28:00 40 �Oh yeah, everything Interviewer: Now, did you ever have South Vietnamese service men working with you either as interpreters, or anything else, that you can recall? At some of the firebases we did, some companies did, but we didn‘t. At one point we had one chieu hoi when we were out on Ripcord. There were Vietnamese out there. They tried to bring in ARVN‘S, but they never went out with us, we never—I never dealt with an ARVN my whole life over—my whole time there. Interviewer: What phase, or part, of the Ripcord operation were you involved with? The whole thing, from April when we went up the mountain—that had been a firebase before and then they abandoned it, and now we‘re coming back to work the valley again. Interviewer: The A Shau Valley? The A Shau Valley and that was the thing, you work an area and then you move because of the monsoons and gave it back. 29:05 At this time when we went back for Ripcord, they had stopped the bombing and the Vietnamese were bringing down a lot of big stuff and that was actually, what they called their warehouse area. We hit some cave‘s where there were brand new clothes in the caves, bunkers, the roofs on bunkers would be three great big logs on the top of the bunkers and three logs this big around stacked on top of one another, so a five hundred pound bomb isn‘t going to make a dent in that thing. That‘s the kind of things you ran into, a lot of bunkers like that. They came in through— they didn‘t mind the monsoons, they weren‘t flying helicopters, so they were building and they built this warehouse area in there and they built all these huge bunkers and they brought all these--122 mortars is what they brought down, big guns, artillery, and they 41 �were bringing artillery down. 30:06 They were bringing tanks down. We were out— one time when we were out with Chuck Hawkins we ran across a phone cable this big around running along the jungle floor. It was that heavy of an area and they had that much communication. I mean, it was huge. We ran into one cave and we found brand new Mickey Mouse sweatshirts. What are the odds you‘d find something like that? Mickey Mouse printed on the front of them. Interviewer: How intense was the fighting around there, in that operation? Ripcord was the worst we‘d ever had. They wanted it bad and we were a big thorn in their side. We had Ripcord and I think Ripcord was about eight hundred and fifty meters high [officially 927]. They had Hill 1000, so they were a thousand meters high. 31:02 We tried to get on 1000 and got nailed quite a few times, got booted back. I‘m going up Ripcord and got booted out quite a few times—finally got up there and they started building—we secured it basically, and they started building the firebase. They brought in another set of mortars, so we took our mortars out and went with Chuck and worked that area. I mean, everyplace you went—we flew in, helicoptered in, we‘re making a combat assault onto this ridgeline, and this huge mountain went this way and the ridgeline came down and the mountain was little on this side and went back that way. The ridgeline was only this wide, maybe a third of the skid would actually set on the ground, and the rest would hang over each end. We‘re getting out, and we‘re getting mortared as we‘re getting out of the helicopter. We‘re getting mortars and we‘re running out and the first thing we run into is bunkers. 32:02 We find mortar rounds laying all over the place, their mortar rounds, and they just left. We came in and they hauled ass, you know. So, we came in and secured that for a little bit, took a bunch of mortar rounds—we had a— 42 �they called in some—I thought it was a marine airplane. It was a prop plane like they‘d use in WWII. They called in a couple two hundred pound bombs, or something, and this ridgeline was so steep you could watch the waterfall, one of the most beautiful things you could see, like we‘d seen in Hawaii, this beautiful fall coming out of the mountain. I mean, it was steep and there was a stream down below and this mountain slid down to it, all just beautiful. We were getting mortared when we came in on that, so they called in this plane. I don‘t know who it was or who—I wasn‘t privy to that sort of thing, but he had a couple of two hundred pounders, I‘m guessing. 33:03 I thought they were both supposed to land out in front because that‘s where we were taking all the fire from. One landed out there and the other one landed behind us and fortunately this thing was so thin and narrow-- if it flat we‘d all have been in big trouble, but fortunately it just went down the mountain and blew up the side of the mountain a little bit, put a little pock mark in it. We went from there—we secured that, and the next morning we got up and we‘re starting to walk out through the jungle and we‘d gotten a new point guy and I find out later by reading in the book Ripcord, reading Chuck Hawkins‘s account of everything, we had a new point man and he‘d only been in country a few weeks and why they even had him up there at point wasn‘t real sure, but it was Wieland Norris, Chuck Norris‘s brother. 34:11 He walked up to a bomb crater and they had a 51 caliber set up on the other side and they killed him and the next man, so I know everybody went down and that was when I really got my first—we‘d been in situations like that before, but that was the first time I‘d got where I could actually see them—they were going to flank us. This was to take everybody to the front, everybody ran up to the front and everybody‘s hollering, ―Shoot up their weapons‖, the two that were down, shoot up their weapons and get up there, but 43 �they were running through the jungle down the side of the mountain and going to come around to the side, and that was the first time I‘d really seen that in action. 35:08 It‘s like a football play on TV, you know, you hear about this play and it was the first time I‘d actually seen something like that work out. We got a medivac in and nothing ever came of it. There was a little bit of fire fight, but I don‘t know how long it lasted or anything. I don‘t remember much about it other than getting the medevac in and getting those guys out. We were out again with them—it was just a rough time at that time. I don‘t remember much about that one. Interviewer: It’s kind of a blur, you’re out there trudging around in the jungle, and you’re under fire periodically? Yeah, because I don‘t know why, I don‘t remember leaving and getting back to the firebase. We went out again because we went out with the line company and I don‘t think it was Chuck Hawkins that time that we went out with, but we went out with another line company. 36:03 I could never figure it out, there was an illumination parachute in the next mountain over, in a tree. We were on Cuoc Mon Mountain and this was another mountain in the valley in between us. We were out there with a line company and it just got to be—they didn‘t like us, we knew they didn‘t, we got a bet going that we can shoot that, we‘re so good we can shoot that parachute out of that tree with three rounds. Everybody‘s putting their money together and just the three of us, we probably couldn‘t come up with more than seventy five or eighty bucks, or something and they were betting all this money saying, ―Hey you can‘t do that you guys‖. I always tell the story that we took it out in two rounds, pretty impressive when you do that. We were down to the Ripcord reunion and Pops was there and I was telling him that story 44 �and Pops looks at me and he says, ―You took that out with the first round‖, and I said, ―Yeah, but that sounds kind of brazen to say that I got it with the first round. 37:01 It sounds better if I say I got it with the second round, it makes me feel better‖. But that was just one—why of all—and I asked him, to this day. One of the things that really got me going when I had my PTSD was the fact that I went back to that day and here we‘re around Ripcord and why are they letting us shoot mortar rounds at a parachute? Now, some way or another we had to get some kind of clearance from above to be able to— unless you under attack in a firefight where you need to fire and waste three rounds. These guys hump these rounds out there, they don‘t like us anyway, do they just want to lighten their load three rounds and why were we even able to do this? 38:00 Interviewer: I’m not sure how tightly a company was going to be supervised when it’s just sort of marching around. I mean, you’ll get orders from above, or something, but you weren’t in an area that had civilians in it, so that restriction wasn’t there. It wouldn‘t have been anything like that, but it was at a time where, when you got into something they said if you call for more artillery they‘d say, ―You‘re almost at your limit, your allotment for the time‖. It doesn‘t make sense, you got all these Vietnamese around you why would you want to—I mean, I—granted we don‘t have lights up there showing them where we‘re at, but I think if a mortar going off don‘t tell them where to look for you what‘s going to, you know. It doesn‘t make sense, it never has made sense. That‘s one of the things I asked Pops and it must have come down from somebody that we could do that. 39:02 We didn‘t have, other than the—whoever was the—I can‘t remember his name, but it seems like it was Charlie Company that we were with. Whether the Captain, 45 �the commander of that company—why would he even do that? None of it made any sense at all. Interviewer: Company commanders rotated through there pretty quickly too, so maybe the guy didn’t know any better. You remembered that it seemed rather strange. You mentioned in the process that you’re starting to see kind of rationing of ammunition and resources, you have a quota of artillery that you can call and that kind of thing. Now, was that true throughout the whole time you were in Vietnam, or did that change over time? At that point in time at Ripcord they were really trying to downplay Ripcord. There was no mention of Ripcord until thirty years later. 40:00 I mean nothing , and now all of a sudden in the VFW magazine we were number one at being—having seventy one guys killed in one battle, more than they had at Khe Sanh and all of a sudden more than were killed at Hamburger Hill, we were number one, Ripcord was number one, in one battle we lost seventy-one guys, and I know for a fact that we lost a lot more than that, we lost almost five hundred, but it went on from April until July. So, in that time, I know for a fact, I got the paperwork that shows the names and places and what happened, but, why the distinction all of a sudden? You never heard about it, but they were trying to keep it low key. They were trying to make it look like the ARVNs were taking over, and the ARVNs weren‘t out there. There were four hundred and fifty, I believe, of us on the mountain top, on the firebase at Ripcord. 41:05 It was about the size of three football fields and I never really seen the other side. You get up and you take a tour, you go down to whatever you have to do, to the latrine or hump ammo from the chopper base, so I only got to see my side of the mountain. But according to books now, that have come out, 46 �there was like four hundred and fifty of us on the mountain and we were surrounded by 7800 NVA from their—and, of course, without the bombing all these things were coming down and we were being mortared regularly every day and every night. Tear gas, every day, every night, rocketed, shot at, sniper fire, every time. I built my hooch underneath the chopper pad. Pretty good thinking, they got PSP planking for the deck , steel roof—I got a picture of me laying there and there‘s the steel roof, while we were building our hooch underneath this chopper pad. 42:07 You build on the side of the mountain and fill sandbags and build walls out in front, so you‘re mountain on the sides, and I got a steel roof and mountain all around me and off at the front. Interviewer: Now, do you have places where you would be actually on the firebase and firing a mortar from there? Oh yeah, you‘d come back—you may go out with a line company and be out a week or two weeks or three week and then you‘d come back to the firebase and they would rotate another gun out if they wanted another gun out. I had the fortune or misfortune, we were liked, they liked us and we were good. I mean, just absolutely good and that was the beauty of it and why—it was hard to leave, leave the country and leave those guys there. I mean, you‘re such a good family and we were just good. 43:03 Chuck Hawkins didn‘t take anybody else, just us and we kind of volunteered, I guess and we liked him. We liked to get out beyond the firebase, on the firebase you‘re always having to do something, where out there it was like boy scouts, you‘re out camping and getting shot at a little bit more. Interviewer: What was it like to be out there at night though? You’re out there on patrol there’s a lot of enemy around in the area. 47 �What you do is you go out and you hump down a stretch of the jungle, depending on if you‘re humping up the mountain or down the mountain, across the ridgeline, or whatever. You‘d hump along and you had the line guys out in front of you and they‘re out there far enough you can—they‘re just not quite out of view, I mean that‘s how far spaced you are, you‘re not bunched up, so you‘re maybe, probably, fifty to seventy five yards apart individually. 44:01 You‘re humping along and you got your weapons and you‘re looking and watching everybody‘s—nobody‘s talking, it‘s all hand movements, hand gestures and that and then you‘d go by a spot and somebody would make the gesture and you‘d remember that spot. Then you‘d keep on going and you‘d wait for dusk and when dusk came you‘d set up, you‘re going to setup your perimeter and this will be your basecamp for the night. Well into, once it got dark then you‘d move back to that spot that everybody pointed to, so that if anybody had seen you set up you wouldn‘t be where they had seen you, you‘d be in a different area. So, in the middle of the night you‘d set up and you‘d spend all night setting up. You‘d set, generally, you‘d sit back to back, so if the guy you were with on guard went to fall asleep and doze off you‘d feel him, he‘d either startle you awake or you‘d startle him awake if you happened to fall off. 45:05 Generally speaking there‘d be three guys and everybody, when you‘re on guard, sat back to back depending on—if you‘re out on something like that you‘d have two guy out so you had less sleep and then you‘re out—you get up in the morning and have your cigarettes and fix your coffee and start on your way to someplace else. Interviewer: Did it matter which company you were out with in terms of how careful they were with all the security provisions and things? 48 �Some were a little lax on the—it didn‘t make any difference to what you did, but it made it a lot more tense and that‘s why we probably volunteered to go with Chuck and his company. We knew what they were and they knew what we were and we just meshed and worked together, because I know a lot of them were lax with the smoking and the noise, noise was a big thing, noise was a real big thing. 46:01 Interviewer: When you’re out there in the Ripcord area would you get attacked at night? Would the enemy try to come in after you? Oh yeah Interviewer: What would you do when that happened? Get as close to the ground as—wish you‘d dug a deeper hole. You dig your little foxhole and wish you‘d dug it a little deeper. ―I wish I would have made this a little deeper and I wish I were a little closer to somebody else‖. If something started happening your adrenalin starts pumping and you don‘t know what you‘re doing, I mean you just don‘t know what you‘re doing. Some guys don‘t do anything, some guys have their weapon and will be firing and some guys will just hold their weapon up and shoot, just to say they shot or something, I don‘t know. I was always leery about not having enough ammunition, so I was pretty conservative. 47:00 When I had the sixty [M60 machine gun] most of those guys, they didn‘t like it because I didn‘t—I was too conservative with it. I was always afraid of running out of ammunition and it‘s not like you can just go to the next corner and pick up—the chopper can‘t get in, you‘re in the triple canopy jungle and you don‘t know if they‘re going to drop it where you‘re at or what you‘re going to have and really you just need to lay down a basic firing when things start happening. You don‘t know what‘s going on, all of a sudden things just get so wild, nothing like in 49 �your wildest dreams. We‘d eat—everything you carried was on your back and most of it was water and ammunition. You didn‘t take a lot of food, everybody, usually, would get a case of C rations and you‘d trade off what you didn‘t like and your cigarettes, or whatever. 48:00 I usually carried mostly fruit and then you ate, maybe, once a day, make coffee and hot chocolate, you‘d have packets of hot chocolate and coffee. You‘d make those and you‘d eat up whatever you could find. Maybe somebody might have killed a snake and you have a little fry, snake fry, or monkey, or something, because you didn‘t—food wasn‘t that big an option and it wasn‘t something you really relied on that much. I mean, you could go a whole day without eating anything and then late in the afternoon have something, a pound cake and some crackers and that would pretty well do you. I think it also made for the fact that you were not always having to take a crap in the woods, you know, you‘re kind of on your own on that. 49:06 That one you have to kind of—―I‘m going to go over here while‖ and ―Be sure to holler this word before you come back‖, you know. I think your body kind of says, ―If you don‘t eat you don‘t crap though, so let‘s hold off a little bit‖. Interviewer: Now, in the time when you’re hit in the I Corps sector there by the Ripcord or elsewhere, are there particular kinds of events or incidences, things that happened to you , that kind of stand out in your memory, or have come back to you, that you haven’t brought in here yet? No, the shooting of the parachute was the biggest thing, I‘d always remember that and there were a few things that happened on Ripcord and I don‘t usually get into them. 50:00 We were getting hit and we were always getting hit, it was just a matter of— things start coming in and how quick you could get--- you‘d start firing back, so you‘d 50 �start firing—we‘d have the mortar up within seconds. It was already set up the guns and tubes are set and the rounds are setting there. They‘d call, ―We need‖, and we‘d have— Delta Company called in and they were pretty much annihilated. I think the CO got a satchel charge in his chest and I don‘t think, at the time we were talking to them on the radio, I don‘t think there were more than two of them that were actually alive at that point. That got you going and then Chuck Hawkins called in, I don‘t think it was Chuck, somebody called in for Alpha Company and they had some gooks coming after them. 51:10 They were fighting them off the best they could and then somebody else was coming along—I don‘t remember how that went. Interviewer: There were units patrolling around Ripcord all the time, so they would get into trouble and they would get fire support from wherever they could get it. Would you talk to them? They would call in for the TOC. The TOC was setup in its own bunker and we had these land mines that came out. The phones like the one I got in my trailer, in fact the picture I got in my album shows that phone and that‘s why I‘ve got them. Those are actual things we—the same things that we used. Interviewer: Would enemy bombardments take out the land lines periodically? Would those get cut or were those well buried? I guess it could happen, it never—nothing like that ever—most of your land lines and stuff were right in the ground along the edge of the sandbags, so unless it hit right on there—52:10 We had a lot of them, the top of my hooch—I‘ve got pictures of the top of my hooch, it was all sandbags and all this dirt would have been inside these green sandbags and the whole top of my hooch was brown because the sandbags were blown 51 �away, so it‘s all covered with just brown. The way we had built our hooch, I could stand—this was the chopper pad—I could stand in my hooch and my head would just barely be just a little bit to the chopper pad, maybe my chin could touch on the chopper pad, and the chopper would be—and you‘d be looking at the bottom and the tail rotors were going there and blowing all this stuff, but we could stand in there and our pit wall was here and the mountain went down like this , but we could stand in our hooch and watch the helicopters on top of the roof be shot up, watch the tracers come over our head. 53:04 You could turn around and watch the tracers come in and shoot these things up, but because of the angle they couldn‘t get us because of the way we were setup. All these choppers they‘d be up there—a Chinook came in one time and the whole side of it just started popping open and it just shuddered and set down, and then they brought in another Chinook and were going to take it apart so they brought in this other Chinook and they hooked up these big straps, pull straps, up to this big rotor on, four blades on the big rotor on the back end of it and the another Chinook came in and a guys standing on the other one and he clicks it onto the bottom of the Chinook and the Chinook pulls up and disengages the rotors and starts taking off. They got to have a kind of downward motion to get a forward motion to come off the mountain, that‘s why you‘re up so high, so they can get going, and they come off from that and this is trailing behind them. 54:05 It‘s probably a three or four inch strap, nylon belt strap, doubled up and everything. They come off the mountain and we‘re watching them and they start leveling out and this rotor‘s behind them, well, it‘s turning the whole time it‘s behind them and that strap is knotting right up like a rubber band knot up, and all of a sudden you could see the tail gunner, the guy on the—they got the back deck down and they got a 60 mounted on it 52 �and the guys laying on it as protection coming into Ripcord. You could see him and I think the whites of his eyes are like this and this rotors right behind him and it‘s getting closer and closer and he must have called in because all of a sudden the guys from the guns on the side, because they got 60‘s out the side windows on the Chinook and the guys from the side are out looking and looking and the rotors coming. 55:05 All of a sudden the Chinook did one of these, and it just nosed up like that, and the propeller from, the props from the other Chinook, came down underneath and you could see the release when they released the cable and that thing just fluttered through the air. That thing would have taken them out and the thing fluttered through the air and almost made it back to Ripcord. At that point they decided to just push them off the side of the mountain and burn them up. They were full of fuel-- they would shoot off a burning light for three seconds because it‘s made out of magnesium and they just tear up right away. That was one thing; you didn‘t want to be in a Chinook that crashed. Interviewer: Did you hear a lot, was there counter battery fire? Did you hit enemy mortars if you could, or figure out where they were? Yeah, if we got a call in--Pops would get the call and they‘d say ‗Troops in the open‖, or grouping, or mass of troops. 56:07 If we already had a VT set up for them, and they were in our VT, we were on them like that. One time they setup on a hill across from us and they were firing mortars at us and we were firing mortars at them. We tried to take out anything. We tried to take out anything, not necessarily troops, because the big things, the mortars and that would do more damage than just troops because everybody‘s fighting with just rifles. 53 �Interviewer: Would they move their mortars around and fire a couple rounds from one spot and then move it? Yeah Interviewer: Were they just trying to draw a bead on your mortar pits and take those out? They were trying to do any kind of damage they could. I don‘t know, generally—at Berchtesgaden they came down the mountain, they would zee the mortars down there, so they were planning on—I don‘t think they were moving their armor, they were on another mountain watching us and they came down the mountain in a zee fashion like that. 57:06 That‘s basically the way our guns were set up—we had a number one pit here and a number two pit, which was George and I, here and the other one was kind of directly below it at the illumination pit, I think that‘s what they were trying to do, just blow anything that was there whether it was a person, a gun or mortar, it didn‘t make any difference, they were trying to cover as much as what they could. Interviewer: Do you remember leaving that? The worst day of my life, it was terrible to leave those guys, I mean I felt bad. 58:03 Interviewer: Did you go out by yourself or did your whole squad go together? No, just, Oscar Utley and I came in together, he was from Texas and he worked for Dr. Pepper down there. He worked for Dr. Pepper, so he used to get a lot of care packages with Dr. Pepper in it, but him and I came in together, same day, and he ended up being a FTC and a matter of fact, I got a picture of him and I leaving my hooch and of course we‘re getting—to bring a helicopter in is life threatening, they had so many of them shot down, I mean just a bundle. What they did, the helicopters would come in and just be 54 �about a foot, or so, above the deck and they‘d kick the ammunition out if you needed it, when you needed ammunition, kick ammunition, food, or grenades, whatever you have to have. 59:02 Oscar and I are standing in my pit and we got everything and we‘re ready to go. We have two days left in country, we‘re leaving on the 12th and this is the 10th. Interviewer: Even though you’d become a short timer you were still out in the field. Normally a short timer is when they have forty five days left and you get a clerk's job or whatever. No, we were out there and we had two days left in country. Now they‘re worried about getting us out of there, because I don‘t know what comes up if you over extend somebody, I don‘t know what happens. I know your tour is three hundred and sixty five days and that‘s pretty much set in stone it seems like. We had two days left in country. They were bringing in some ammunition, some supplies, so Oscar and I ran to the helicopter and we dove over the ammunition they‘re kicking out and got on the Huey. 00:06 The pilot looks at us and says, ―You can‘t go, we‘re too heavy, you can‘t go‖, and I pointed my rifle that way and I said, ―We know how to lighten it up‖, and he took off and we were too heavy. We came down that mountain and the skids were in the treetops. The skids were in the treetops when we came down that mountain, and we went treetop all the way back, because it was too heavy. Interviewer: How long was that before they shut down Ripcord? That was on the 10th that I left and by the time I got home on the 23rd, Ripcord had been over run and they took everybody off and they left everything behind. 1:00 I got a letter from David that I‘ll show you and David tells what they could carry, what they had in their hands. A lot of guys didn‘t get their rucksacks out, they left all the radar units, all the equipment, all the big guns, the mortars, and then they brought in the biggest B-52 55 �strike ever, the United States has ever done, and just blasted the top of the mountain away. There were six guys left behind and they were killed. They were hiding somewhere and didn‘t get out. Then they went back in—I guess after they, even after— there were Vietnamese running all over the place when they were blowing it up, and even afterwards when they went back into there, there were Vietnamese all over the place. That was it—I got home, flew into Washington, Fort Lewis, and I was there twenty four hours sitting in the airport trying to get a flight back to Lansing. 2:06 I couldn‘t get one, we were flying military standby and there was a group of Girls Scouts that were flying just standby, but we bumped two of the Girl Scouts. Well, you‘ve never been cusses out until you‘ve been cussed out by a Girl Scout mother because she either has to stay behind with one of the girls or two of the girls, but they got bumped and they were irate. I said, ―I‘ve been gone a year, I‘m going‖---we got into Detroit like two in the morning, I think it was, it was foggy, it was so foggy you couldn‘t see even across the street. No planes were flying, you could have thrown a bowling ball through the airport, and there was nobody in the airport at two o‘clock in the morning. I mean, this is way back, I mean, this is nothing; nobody, and we got a cab ride home. 3:01 There were four of us coming back to Lansing and we got a cab and we each pitched in for the cab. Interviewer: So, we have basically gotten you out of Vietnam, back to Detroit in the fog and you took a cab from Detroit to Lansing. There was nothing flying and we were in the Detroit airport. We‘d been gone a year and at that point we would have walked. We all got together, pooled our money that we had and found a cabby and asked him, ―How much will it take to get us back to Lansing?‖ He told us and we all piled in his cab, and you couldn‘t see the car in front of you, and 56 �he‘s trying to go down the highway like forty or fifty miles an hour because he wants to get his money, get to Lansing and get back. We told him, ―Hey, we just all got back from Vietnam, take your time‖, and we all had our heads stuck out the windows feeling for curbs and it‘s just amazing we didn‘t have somebody sitting out on the front bumper watching the car in front, you know. 4:12 You couldn‘t see anything—it took us—we didn‘t get back in town, in here, until like five o‘clock in the morning. One of the guys lived out on Cavanaugh, so—I can‘t remember, we dropped them off as we came in and I was—Greg lived out on Cavanaugh, his mother-in-law lived there and still does, so I got out when he got out and took my duffle bag and I lived over here next thing and started walking home at that point. I get home and it‘s probably quarter to six in the morning. I got home, walked up on the front porch and the newspaper guy was delivering the newspaper, so I‘m sitting out in front reading the newspaper. It was my in-laws house and my father in-law came out to get the paper with coffee in his hand and just lost his cup of coffee, he spilled it. 5:05 I was sitting out there reading the paper and that was ―cumin home‖. I went over to visit my folks and Greg got back about the same time. He was the one I went through basic with and we drove home. We met up again, everybody got together and we had a little cookout and cake. I used to hang around with Greg quite a bit and then we both got divorced and he went his way and I haven‘t talked to him in quite a few years. I talked to George, I had—I went over to my mother‘s house, she called me one day, and she said, ―I got a letter here from a Boardwyne, Amy Boardwyne‖, and I never put two and two together, I didn‘t have any idea, and I said, ―Okay‖. Well, when I was in Vietnam, George Boardwyne, he didn‘t have a girlfriend, so I had him, the same age as my sister, I had him sending my sister Joy letters and they 57 �were writing back and forth. 6:05 Well, Amy, his daughter now, was going through some of his stuff and found the address and wrote a letter to me, to my old address, because that‘s where I lived, and my sister lived, to ask if I would mind if George called me, or would I call him and she‘d pay for the call, just call collect, or write a letter or whatever. I finally, about a month later I called him and what do you say to somebody? This is thirty years later, and we talked for a little bit, but we really had nothing in common and I haven‘t talked to him since, and now it‘s been another fifteen years. I was at a reunion and I happened to see a guy at the reunion that said, ―You were at Ripcord weren‘t you?‖ I said, ―Yeah‖, and he had a Ripcord newsletter, one of the first ones and Pop‘s name was in there, John Henderson. 7:06 I said, ―I know Pops‖, and he said, ―I thought you might‖, so I got his name and address from that and I called him. I called him and I‘m laying up in bed talking to him on the phone and ―Pops can tell you every minute, anything that went on. He was right in with André Lucas, our battalion commander and all the higher ups; he was right close with them. There‘s an article that was in Stars and Stripes, I‘ve got in on the trailer, where André Lucas, our battalion commander was setting in Pop‘s chair, which was made out of some ammo boxes and Pops was giving him a haircut. Pops gave everybody haircuts. André Lucas said, ―Where else can you get a haircut and watch an air strike at the same time?‖ He‘s sitting out there at Ripcord during a bombing run, you know. 8:06 André was killed on top of my hooch. His TOC, of course, was right behind the chopper pad and he and his XO were killed on top of my hooch. He was a great guy. From talking to Pops and I didn‘t know André personally, but just from in passing and the fact that his place was on top of my place, being tenants on the same mountain, he was a soldier‘s soldier. I mean, he 58 �looked out for his guys; he took care of us really well. When we needed something he was there for us and you don‘t get that from a lot of them. Like I say some of them above him—we got clean clothes and ice cream from our company commander if you had a body count. 9:02 Other than that, look at you, you can do without food and water for three or four days at least. We did that, we had that happen where they wouldn‘t resupply us and we had to eat whatever you could find. Interviewer: Now, when you got back home, did you talk to people much about what you had seen or done in Vietnam, or did you kind of put that in a box someplace? I went to a couple parties with some friends that we neighbors of—we‘d partied a lot of times before I went, when we were younger and stuff. We used to go—we‘d always have all these parties, and I went to those and nobody wanted to hear about it to being with and a lot of them—there was a gal from Ann Arbor, her and her husband came to parties and she called us baby killers. 10:10 it may sound strange, and I know you hear it, and you may think this is just another Vietnam vet saying BS and I hate it when people say it, that they called us that. She called me that, Greg and I were together partying at Mike‘s house and she was from Ann Arbor—she was a student at the U of M. We never got with the group after that. My kids all went to Everett High School where I went and Nick played baseball and he was a batboy for a kind of AAA ball team here in town, or ABC whatever they call it, so we‘d go out to the municipal, the ball park, and families would be there. 11:09 These guys were older than me and Nick was just a little guy, probably only six, seven, or eight years old and he was the batboy, he was kind of their little mascot kind of thing. He loved ball, he loved baseball so I got him in Raymon, I knew 59 �Rich and Rich, they played all over, we went to Battle Creek and we‘d go all over to play ball. I could go to the ball park and wear my jungle fatigue shirt and nobody would sit anywhere near me; I‘d have the bleachers to myself. There is a real stigma that goes with it. The first psychiatrist I went to see when—I had a bad time with my heart and blood pressure and I went—started in with the VA seeing—getting medicine and stuff and seeing a psychiatrist and my first psych told me, ―Well, you shouldn‘t wear green and you shouldn‘t watch war movies‖. 12:06 I‘m thinking—this is just like six or eight years ago and I‘m thinking--for thirty years before that a friend of mine was in—he didn‘t make the military because he was 4F, he had a hunchback and he was collecting. He collected from the Civil War on up, military things, and he‘s got all kinds—just tons, huge barns full of it, so he would take me to these gun and knife shows because he wanted to authenticate what he was buying for his Vietnam collection. So, it‘s not that the Vietnam—I would buy a few things, we were raising kids, and for three or four bucks I‘d find a dummy grenade or, you know, a patch or something like that and that‘s what started out the collection. Then it just kind of got out of hand, but we would do air shows. He got me—he had a deuce and a half and the trailers and everything and he got me taking my collection—I was helping him basically, I went along to help him. 13:07 then he said, ―Why don‘t you bring some of your stuff?‖ Well, we‘d unload one of the trailers and I‘d put a poncho liner down, or a raincoat, or something like that and I‘d put some of my pictures down there. Well, when you went to the military side , all of a sudden all the military people, and the people who were coming to see the military were coming to look at my stuff, and I thought, ―Well, that‘s really nice‖, they were interested in my things, you know, and ever since I got back and he got me going, I was always 60 �looking for something, and I don‘t know if it was a person, somebody to say something particular, or a piece of equipment, I never—ever since I got back I‘ve had this problem. I‘ve been hunting, hunting, hunting for this thing and that‘s how I kept buying all this stuff, thinking that—I‘ll go to these shows and run into guys and I run into military guys all the time. 14:07 I‘ve been just talking to them for thirty years, but I could never find that answer, but that‘s how everything started and then my second, the VA Psychologist I ended up with, the second one, her and I got to talking and I told her, ―I‘m hunting and I don‘t know what I‘m hunting for‖. I could never figure out what I was hunting for, but what‘s this thing that‘s eating me up and has for forty years? I can‘t get peace; I have not found that thing that draws the line and says it‘s ended, it‘s over. I‘m looking for this thing that finishes it. It‘s like a book and somebody ripped off the last page or chapter, what is it? What is it and how does it end? 15:00 I got to talk to her and I didn‘t like talking to her at the beginning because she was young. I‘m thinking—I‘m going through all this heart stuff and all these problems, PTSD‘s got me, my wife and I are—I‘m trying to kill myself—I mean, yeah, at two o‘clock in the morning I‘m leaving the house here and walking down through the worst part of town carrying a knife, just looking for somebody to fight. I would drink, I drank a lot and I‘d go out and I was funny when I first started drinking, but it just went away and I would drink and not drunk, but really drunk and trying to find this peace and whatever I‘m looking for and then I got ugly and all I wanted to do was fight, so then I had to stop doing that because Jennifer wouldn‘t leave when she was with me. I‘d toss her the keys and say, ―Go home, I‘ll be home in a little bit‖, and then I‘d go on about my business of getting into a fight. 16:05 At one point in time she said, ―No, I‘m not leaving‖, and at that point it clicked in my head that 61 �something‘s got to change. I can‘t do this anymore because now I‘m endangering her life, and that‘s what I‘m—all my life I‘ve been trying to protect people, you know, and it just carries through, it never leaves you, that being drilled into your head back when you‘re nineteen, it never leaves you. I went back to the same thing, so I quit drinking and started going to PTSD groups, and seeing a Psychiatrist. I see one a week, and Angela was the one, I told her, ―I don‘t have time to educate her‖. I told her at the beginning, at the first, I said, ―You know, people who deal with Vietnam veterans usually die. You should really find some other line and get away from the vets, it‘s not healthy‖. 17:00 When I came back my doctor, who was my age, died and the next person I got in touch with, he died. Not knowing, I‘m talking with Angela and she‘s getting me through this thing, she has cancer and she dies, and this was like just a few years ago. I was really-she found my answer and I lost her. Now I‘m starting in with, I got Bill, a new guy that has taken over our group, but if it wasn‘t for the group, I‘d of been back out there on the street walking with my knife again. Interviewer: And you wouldn’t be in a place where you can talk to me. Yeah, and any of the others, you know, that‘s what hold me to my firm space, is I think, ―All the guys that went through this and didn‘t come back, that‘s what my trailer‘s about‖, and that‘s what Angela told me. 18:03 She said, ―Your treatment doesn‘t make anything different for your PTSD, that‘s not the cause of your PTSD, that‘s not bringing on your PTSD, you could get rid of all the green in the world and it wouldn‘t stop your PTSD, that‘s not the problem. The problem you have is in your head‖. We started talking and I said, ―I know when we were in one of the firefights, everybody around me is getting shot or dying‖. I said, I told her, ―I talk a lot to God. I really feel bad because I 62 �don‘t dare to step into a church because I‘ve got a lot of promises I knew I couldn‘t keep and I think he knew I couldn‘t keep them too—God get me out of this, get me to—give us another day—give us something, somehow help us through this‖. 19:03 We were talking about the trailer and that and she said, ―That‘s what you‘re looking for‖. I said, ―What do you mean?‖ She said, ―This is your promise to god, in the trailer. That you‘re keeping all these guys alive, you‘re keeping them well, you‘re keeping them remembered, and that‘s what you promised God. This is your payment; this is how you‘re repaying him by doing this. That‘s why the trailer, you won‘t get better getting rid of all this and staying away from it, that has nothing to do with it. You can meet all the veterans you want, you can wear all the green you want. This is your promise to God and that‘s what‘s in your brain and that‘s what you‘re looking for‖. And I finally found peace. Interviewer: That makes a pretty good place for us to close this out, so I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. I‘m glad we had this time to tell the people. 20:05 63 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhippleB1172V Title A name given to the resource Whipple, Bruce (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whipple, Bruce Description An account of the resource Bruce Whipple was born in Lansing, Michigan, and was drafted into the Army two years after high school. He trained as an infantryman at Fort Bragg and Fort Dix, and went to Vietnam in July, 1969. He was assigned to mortar platoon Echo Company, 2/506 Infantry, 101st Airborne Division. His unit fought in the A Shau Valley, then near the coast around Camp Evans, then in the Ripcord campaign. He spent nearly all of his tour in the field, much of it attached to line companies rather than staying on firebases. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-07-27 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e6d48b0e5c7c6d3814d83c018200257.m4v 7e4edfe8bd6732feb5ec98285841618d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a869307cf1ab7639c73371219f3f9afe.pdf c810c952e6380577a0b17747f698cf01 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Delores White “Brumfield” Length of Interview: (01:09:42) Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion. Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, July 25, 2010 Interviewer: “If we could begin with, and boy this is going to get complicated, your name, I mean the full part, and where and when were you born?” My name is Miriam Delores Brumfield White and I was born in Pritchard, Alabama, May the 26th, 1932. Interviewer: “And what is the name that you go by when you sign your check and whatnot and what is the name you go by in baseball?” Today I sign my checks as Delores B. White and when I sign autographs for baseball, I sign Dolly Brumfield. Interviewer: “We got that straight for the record now.” Yes, I hope. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” I was one of three children, I was the oldest of three and we lived in the early years near an elementary school and a block away was also a junior high school, so my playground at the school was where I grew up, where I preferred to play the things that the boys were playing, baseball, football and all the other things. We were on the school ground most of the time. 1:16 Sometimes we were in the neighborhood and I remember some of the childhood games we use to play. Under the house was a good clay pit and we could throw clay balls at each other and this type of thing, but I primarily grew up on the school playground. The junior high school had a baseball field and that was the time when the men use to come and play baseball after their workdays in the shipbuilding era during the war. 1:44 Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?” My father was an automobile mechanic. Interviewer: “So was my dad, and your mother was a homemaker?” A homemaker yes, until the war and during the war she then took her skills of typing and shorthand into the business world and worked with an insurance company. Interviewer: “Pritchard was a fairly good size town?” 1 �Pritchard is north of Mobile at that time that’s the location. We were really Mobile, but it was kind of a suburb of Mobile, but it’s an independent city known as Pritchard, Alabama. It’s a pretty good size because at that time it was the fifth largest city in the state of Alabama. 2:32 Interviewer: “You were talking about the war, so do you remember Pearl Harbor when it happened and how did you hear about it?” Well I heard about Pearl Harbor because our next-door neighbor had a son at Hickam Field, so that made it very personal and I do remember some of the early happenings and particularly the day of December the 7th of 1941. Interviewer: “I can’t do the math, but how old were you?” At which time? Interviewer: ‘At Pearl Harbor. Well I must have been about nine. 3:05 Interviewer: “All right, so you were old enough to recognize that something big was happening.” Something was happening, yes. Interviewer: “So you spent a lot of time playing in the school—your back yard in a sense, was the school and the baseball diamond and all that. How did that all work out? You’re a girl how could you play baseball?” Well I was called the tomboy of the neighborhood. I did not like paper dolls, that’s what the girls were playing and they would cut out these little paper dolls and have these little tea sets and that never appealed to me. I’d rather have the beanpole and do the polevaulting over the neighbor’s bushes or around the school were big ditches and we’d pole vault across the ditches. Those were the things that were more interesting to me and of course we always had the basketball games and the football games and baseball games and that was the environment in which I grew up. 3:59 Interviewer: “Looking back now and playing baseball with the boys, how good were you as a young kid? How good were you? Were you a good batter? Could you pitch? I mean how were you as a player?” Well, on the playground we played a game called work-up and you got to do everything. They would let me play with them and sometimes they weren’t too happy about it, but they would let me play with them. I remember one incident, I had trouble with a neighborhood boy who didn’t approve of something I did, I have forgotten now, but all the way home from the ball game I was riding my bike and he turned around and I guess he thought I was riding at him and I was not, but he lived next door and he was older and he turned and threw his glove and hit me in the middle and knocked me off my bicycle. 4:51 I’m usually very peaceful, but at that time I was not. Junior Cassidy was the one and I went home and I think I got my bat, but anyway I went back and met him before he 2 �got home and chased him around the neighborhood for knocking me off my bike—he made me mad, but anyway I didn’t catch him, but I was after him, around the house, across the street and he was yelling for his mama the whole way and she came and got him in the house and I was glad of that. Many years later as adults we enjoyed talking about it. 5:32 That was one of the early ones and yeah, I got to play most of the games and most of the times peacefully and that was one event that I can recall that was not very peaceful. I guess one of the maddest I had got—my father was home at the time because we were going home for supper and he wanted to know, “Delores what are you doing”, and I went out of the house and daddy followed me, so they had to come and get me, but his mama got him in the house in time. 6:05 Interviewer: “Now in high school, did you get a chance to play any organized sports in high school?” There were no sports for girls in Alabama, at least in my part of Alabama at that particular time. Mobile public schools had no sports for girls. Interviewer: “So what was your way of playing sports? Was it still like with the children, did you still have these pick-up game type of things?” On the playground, on the playground of the school and during the war they did start some organized, but there were none for me. I had no opportunity and I actually came into the league without any team experience. 6:40 Interviewer: “So right around, I believe and correct me if I’m wrong, right around fifteen something happened to kind of change your life, was it fifteen?” Fourteen, make it back even—how about thirteen? Interviewer: “All right, let’s go there.” In 1946 the all American league came to Pascagoula, Mississippi for their spring training. Mr. Max Carey was the president of the league at the time and the fellas from the shipyard use to let me play with them when they would come to practice on the junior high diamond and if someone was missing they would let me fill in that spot and on occasion they would even let me play a position if the opportunity presented itself and they needed somebody. They were the ones that actually got me started in—when this league was down in Pascagoula it was in the Mobile Press Register that they were going to have tryouts etc. 7:42 So some of the guys went to my parents and wanted to take me to the tryouts, but my mother said, “no, if you think she should go, I’ll take her”, so one April afternoon in 1946 we borrowed my grandmother’s car because daddy had to go to work in our car and she took me out of school and we drove to Pascagoula, Mississippi where I actually tried out. After I had done all the things Mr. Carey asked me to do, the hit, throw, run business, he asked me how old I was. It wasn’t until I had done all those things he asked me how old I was, so I told him, “I’m thirteen and I’ll soon be fourteen”, but he said, “we don’t take the girls that young”, and he went over to talk to my mother and he said, “Mrs. Brumfield, we don’t take the girls this young”, and my mother said, “I don’t want you to take her, I don’t even know what you thought”, so that was my tryout period. 8:36 3 �Interviewer: “I want to stop you here for a moment though. Did you grow up fairly quickly? You must have been a taller girl than most of the girls—I mean thirteen years old looks like a thirteen year old, how would they?” I was very slender at that time and not very large at all. I guess I’m down to 5’6” now, being elderly, but at that time I was probably 5’6” or 5’7”. Interviewer: “That’s fairly tall for a thirteen year old isn’t it? I mean—were you taller than your other sisters?” I guess I was taller, I have a picture at home, a picture with my father and one of the fish he caught out of Mobile Bay and my brother who is sixteen months younger than I am, but I’m a head taller than he is, so I guess maybe I was a little tall for my age. 9:21 Interviewer: “That makes more sense, yeah. When you played with the men before they came to your mom and said that you should go and tryout for this, were talking about men who were already in their teens and twenties playing baseball. Remember this is WWII, these guys have been in the shipyards and they came for all over and one of my favorite guys was a guy from Mississippi who played. He was a tall slender guy who wore brogans, I don’t know if you remember the old high top work boots or work shoes that they played in, we’re talking about school yard teams, we’re not talking about organized teams as such, just teams getting together to play. 10:14 Interviewer: “They must have known you were playing pretty well to be able to play with them?” I was at the ball field every day and when they came over to practice I was there, so they would let me play catch with them and all and that type of thing. There was a place we use to go to, Alabama Village, which was in Mobile at that particular time, and Mobile was one of major industrial areas during WWII. There were a lot of housing areas that grew up at that time and Alabama Village being one of them and where this ball diamond was with the junior high school was called Pritchard Homes, which was another housing project during the war, so they played one against the other, but never uniforms or organized like that. 10:58 Interviewer: “But still, somebody is throwing a pretty hard ball at you and you’re having to hit a ball.” Oh yeah Interviewer: “At thirteen now your mother reveals that you’re glad that you’re not going to be taken, so what happens? What happened, you went back home?” I went back home. Interviewer: “How did you feel?” 11:18 At that particular time I didn’t know, I didn’t know at the time if I thought I was going to go anywhere anyway because I was just trying out. One of the interesting things—there 4 �was a fella by the name of Bill Mitten, as my mind reminds me, who was a local sports broadcaster and also worked at a sporting goods store and I guess I feel like I was meant to be a baseball player because Mr. Carey lost my name and they were coming to Mobile and were asking about this girl that tried out and they didn’t know and I had gone into the sporting goods store to buy a pair of shoes and talking to him about it and he said, “you must be the one”, and that’s how they got my name back to Mr. Carey. 12:03 That year in June, I tried out in April, they finally found me in May there, and in June when school was out, school years were quite different than they are today, but he wrote my parents and wanted me to go to Chicago and put on one of the teams because I had never had the opportunity to be on a girls team and the parents said, “no, you shouldn’t go that’s too far, too much”, so the next year in November I received a letter from Mr. Carey that said they were going to Havana, Cuba for spring training and that they would like Delores to be one of the girls we ask. I don’t know how many he said, I forget. At one time I had a letter, a copy on that and I think it’s in Cooperstown. They said how many girls they were going to take, new girls and that’s kind of the way that all happened. 12:59 Interviewer: “Now had you ever heard of Cuba before?” Oh, I think I heard of Cuba. There was another girl from Mobile, her name was Margy Holgerson and she also tried out in 1946 and was selected and she pitched for the Rockford Peaches. Over that winter, Mr. Carey sent her out to meet me and to meet my parents and then it was time for spring training to be in April and I’m in school. Now, I’ve got to quit school in order to go to Havana, Cuba, so Margy was my chaperone, we went by plane to Havana, first we went to Miami where we met up with all the girls from everywhere else and we flew over to Havana for spring training. 13:45 Interviewer: “Now I want to stop you here. Had you traveled outside of your immediate area at any distance before that?” Only to my grandparents in Mississippi Interviewer: “It was still in the south.” It was still in the south. Both my parents were from Mississippi, but my mother and dad met in Mobile and married in Mobile, so all of us were born and raised in that area. Interviewer: “So now you arrive in Miami and you’re meeting girls from all over the country?” Yes, and Canada Interviewer: “And Canada, what was that experience like?” Very interesting, I have always been interested in people, I don’t know if it was that experience led me to my interest in names, I’ve always been interested in that. It was just a very exciting time, I’d ridden a train, I was in a different area, I didn’t know anybody but Margy and then we were flown over to Havana and to the Biltmore Hotel. 14:49 I can remember very well one of the older girls, there were several of us in a room and adjoining rooms and this type of thing and my problem was that I said, “yes ma’am and 5 �no sir”, which was the way that I was brought up to do and this one gal from Detroit said, “don’t ma’am me”, and that was a strange experience, but most of the girls were friendly enough. I was put with the Fort Wayne Daisies for my spring training that year, but at the end—I don’t want to get too far beyond, but all the tryout business. At the end of spring training I was selected to be put on a team and I was put with the “South Bend Blue Sox “. 15:37 Interviewer: “I want to address two questions. One, you were much younger than most of the girls, is that correct?” That is correct, I only know of one other girl that was younger than I that came into the league later on and she was a month younger than I, but a lot of the girls came into the league at fifteen. Interviewer: “Now did you notice anything that you were treated any differently because you were younger than them?” The chaperone took care of that. The most important part of the experience was taken over by the chaperone. The chaperone determined where you lived, whom you roomed with and this type of thing she was very selective. 16:28 Interviewer: “So she made sure that there wasn’t going to be any kind of razzing or they were going to tease you because you were younger?” I didn’t have any of that, we were there for spring training and we were there for business. There were places I didn’t go and things I didn’t do that the older girls did, but that was all right with me. Interviewer: “How did you deal with the fact that they all talked so funny?” Well, that was funny, that was funny, I couldn’t understand some of them and they couldn’t understand me, but it was just an interesting experience. The spring training in Havana in 1947 was a highlight for me as I look back. So many fond memories come out of that particular time. 17:13 Interviewer: “Well, I guess what I would like to get at is—I know I have been through experiences in my life where when they’re going on you’re just doing them and you’re not realizing that it’s something special or it’s something unusual. Did you have any sense of—I mean Cuba, I’m playing baseball?” I just had a uniform and I could go on the field and I could play and do what I loved to do and it didn’t make that much at that particular time. There are some pictures in Life magazine coming down the steps in Havana, Cuba, just kind of a wave of us coming down that I kind of enjoy thinking about that and the people that I met that was so important to me. I met people from all over everywhere. Margy had gotten me there, but Margy was with the Rockford Peaches and I didn’t see her much anymore and now I got to deal with all these new people. 18:11 6 �Interviewer: “How was it playing with all the girls?” That was fine; in spring training you’re doing everything, the calisthenic approach to things. At that particular time they didn’t think girls should be doing weights or be in weight rooms, that all came much later. That gets me into a whole new area of how the football coaches didn’t want the very idea of you in their training rooms, but baseball, calisthenics, exercises, running sprints, your infield training and that type of thing. Interviewer: “For that particular team in Cuba, what position did you play?” About everything, mostly infield, but I don’t remember being put in any one position, general skill, running, hitting and throwing. Interviewer: “Now you say Life magazine was there taking pictures?” There was a picture, but I wasn’t aware of it, but there is a Life magazine picture of the girls coming down by teams. 19:24 Interviewer: “So, where did you stay in Cuba?” At the Sevillia Biltmore Hotel. Interviewer: “This was a nice place?” Oh yeah Interviewer: “Had you stayed in a hotel before?” No, the interesting thing is I guess, I remember that particular time, there were people riding around in Jeeps with guns, which was very different and this was before the overthrow of the government and we were not allowed to go out by ourselves, we went in groups. One of the interesting things is as I look back is, there were always fellas standing across the street from the hotel and there were balconies out from the room and I had to learn about things like that, but Havana itself was a beautiful place. One of the interesting things to me was there were only two stop lights in the whole city and the congestion of traffic, the sidewalks were about half the size of sidewalks as we think of them and the buildings were built right up to the corners and as I understood it, the first one to blow his horn had the right away—interesting traffic. 20:40 It was very difficult to walk around some parts of the city, but then they had great plazas that I did like to go down. We got to go into the capitol building itself and do some touring. I had a chance in the next year to go back to Havana for some games. Interviewer: “Tell us about the games the first season, the first time, what was it like, who were you playing against and what were the, for example, when did you get up in the morning, what was your routine like?” 21:11 Well, as you can imagine, you’re traveling most of the time, the traveling part, packing a bag, taking care of laundry and doing those types of things, getting on the bus, being on time, we toured going back, when we came back to the states we were doing tours all the way back. I remember playing in Savanna, Charleston, and Roanoke-- places like that. 7 �One of my memories at that particular time, and I must share that one with you, we were in Charleston and my mother and grandmother rode a Greyhound bus from Mobile to Charleston in order to see me because I had been away from home now for several weeks and I had been selected to be on the team and they rode the bus and came in and we had been on the bus all night riding from one city to the other when my mother comes in early that morning knocking on the door and I’m just getting in bed and she’s knocking on the door. 22:13 She comes in and I say something to her and she is upset at the way I’m talking and she said, “you’re not going to play this game if you’re going to talk like those Yankees”, and that was going to be a no, no, but anyway it worked out all right. I think about it, what they must have endured on the bus ride. If you can imagine going on a bus ride all the way from Mobile to Charleston just to check and see if I was OK. 22:45 Interviewer: “Did they watch the game?” They saw us play I guess, but I don’t have memories, specific memories of that. We did play different cities as we worked our way back and then we flew from Roanoke, Virginia to South Bend. Interviewer: “Did you write letters home?” Oh yeah and some of those are on file in Cooperstown. Interviewer: “So really the way you communicated, they knew you really were ok. They had to have wondered what’s going on with my—“ They wanted to find out and they did. Interviewer: “So your first season that you played, and you played in Cuba, and you also traveled right? What happened in the off season, where did you go?” Back to school, I had dropped out of school, so I had to go back and make up some time. It cost me another semester in high school, but at that time we only had eleven years of public education anyway in Alabama, so it just cost me eleven and a half years to finish. I had missed one course that you can’t take the next course until you had the previous course. 23:56 I think one of my favorite stories about that particular time is in 1948, the second year I played, and I wanted to go to spring training and I’m in high school, Murphy High School in Mobile, and I had to get my teacher’s permission to take two weeks out of school to go to spring training. Spring training that year was in south Florida, Opa-locka, Florida, I think that’s right, and all my teachers had to sign permission for me to go, well didn’t all and the worst one was my Spanish teacher and she always made you feel very bad when she would get you before the class. This is a young lady that wants to go and she made it be known that if I didn’t pass that class it wasn’t her fault if I was going to go to Havana, Cuba and be gone for all that time. 25:00 Well, I did go and I did go back to Cuba, spring training was in south Florida, but we went back over to Havana, but when I came back she—I was gone two weeks and three days, so that’s when she said, “this young lady’s been gone two weeks and three days”. I got back on a Wednesday, I went to school on Thursday and we had an accumulative test on Friday for what I had missed and she didn’t realize that when I was in south Florida some of the team mates were Cubans and were helping me with my Spanish and I was 8 �getting to go to Havana with Spanish, so she was really pointing me out that I was doomed for failure, but I made the second highest grade in class. 25:53 After that, the next year when I came to school, I was always late because of the season, she met me in the hallway and took me to the principal’s office to be sure I was taking second year Spanish. She was a pretty tough teacher and she made a point that I had done all these things and missed school and taken out of class. Interviewer: “But you were smart though by getting somebody who actually speaks Spanish to work with you like that because you were actually getting a better education with traveling and with them in Havana, Cuba because you’re hearing all that as well. The kids in school didn’t have that; they just had whatever they had in class. That’s pretty smart.” That’s right, Mickey Perez was one of the Cuban girls that really helped me and we would write letters back and forth to each other and we were good friends, and we never played on the same team, but she was very helpful to me. Anyway, this was one of the toughest teachers at Murphy High School. Interviewer: I’m going to ask you an indelicate question now, how is your Spanish today?” Boco Interviewer: “Ok, fair enough, fair enough.” 27:06 Although I think about it often and if I have the opportunity, I think, with the languages being done today, I would like to go back and try to get with it again. I didn’t have much conversational at that time it was reading and writing and very little, boco. Interviewer: “Ok, I know this is kind of a tough question because it goes so far back and we’re only two years into your career here, but did you at any time in those first couple of seasons think, “this could be my job? This could be my career?” Not long term, one year at a time, because I’m playing ball in the summer, I’m going to school in the winter, I was always late getting back to school, but I was a pretty good student, so I made it up all right until I got to be a senior and I had to have that special class that took me into another semester, but like I say, we only had eleven years of school anyway at that time. 28:08 Interviewer: “Now you were real young, so maybe this isn’t a fair question. Did you have any idea what you wanted to do?” At that time no because I really was so young and so early in my school career and I hadn’t even had physical education until I went to the high school. I think the physical education teachers at the Murphy High School were very influential in that also, the experience I had. A lot of the girls who played in the league and friends that I had were going to college and many of them also, were teachers. At that particular time, that was 9 �one of the opportunities that women had. The opportunities were very limited in what girls do and if you could get the education, you could teach. 28:57 So the emphasis on education was there to go on and teach and I mean my gym teachers were good for me. Interviewer: “So the second time that you toured with the group to Havana and to other places, what was the next step?” Remember, I only went there for two weeks spring training and then I had to go back to high school. Then during that interim period I find out that I’m no longer with the South Bend Blue Sox, I’m now with the Kenosha Comets, so when I catch the train now to Chicago and be on the new team, I have to get to Kenosha. I traveled by myself, by train, to get first to Chicago and then into Kenosha and then I have a new chaperone, but Mrs. Moore in South Bend, I have to give her credit, a great deal of credit, where she placed me, with whom she placed me and the location that she placed me. 30:04 The chaperones were very important, I hope that we’re going to give them good credit. For the younger girls that came into the league, they always arranged for your housing and who your roommates were. When you’re on the road they also controlled who you were rooming with and that type of thing. Interviewer: “So what were there—you mentioned just now in terms of what they did for the rooms and making arrangements and all that sort of organization, but what were their jobs? What were their duties?” The chaperone was in charge of everything. They were the trainer, they were the business person, you had to have the uniforms, you had to get the first aid, if you had to see a doctor they went with you, they made the appointments, they arranged where you were going to live, who you were going to live with. The first assigned place I had was within walking distance of the ball field and with another girl from the south and I thought that was important too, and into a home where there were no children. 31:09 The husband worked at Sears, he was an usher at the ballpark at night and then his wife was a homemaker. One of my favorite stories is my fifteenth birthday; I’m turning fifteen and Mr. Warner had to do the chore of what you did, he gave me the fifteen licks. In those days you got a lick for every year, so fifteen and one to grow on, she baked me a cake and I was able to go with teammates, some of them and I’m the rookie, but I got to go to the radio show for the Knothole Gang, for younger girls that play in South Bend and the sponsor gave me a beautiful sweater and they did birthday things over the radio and that night at the ball park—I always was assigned to sit by the manager, Chet Grant and that night they pushed me out of the dugout and in front of everybody during the seventh inning and they played a song on the big microphone, “I’m a Big Girl Now”. 32:18 “I wanna be treated like a big girl now”, and that was one of my special memories of that year was my fifteenth birthday. They gave me the cake and ice cream and all that business at home with Mr. And Mrs. Warner and then I got to call home and that was special. Interviewer: “That sounds like a magic moment.” 10 �It was a magic moment, it really was, here I had been away from home now and that was May 26 and I had been away since April, it had been about a month or more I guess, but it was a special time. 32:56 Interviewer: “So what was the next step in your career, so to speak, with baseball? You’re now?” With the Kenosha Comets and driving—I didn’t get to go to spring training again until I graduated from high school and that was in West Baden Springs, Indiana in 1950. Interviewer: “So you miss spring training because of school, but where did you then end up with the group? If they were spring training and went somewhere where did you end up?” They had started the league, they had started play and I think this is where I attribute some of the team pictures where we could identify the people on the teams, so of them we couldn’t identify because those were girls that were picked up in spring training and given a chance to come with the team, but in the team, games being played up to the opening of the league, then some of them were let go. Then you had usually about fifteen or sixteen players were all we had. 33:57 That sometimes leads to misidentification of those girls who didn’t make the team, but they were in spring training pictures. Interviewer: “I gotcha, wow, I didn’t know that.” Once, and others I’m sure, I was one of the ones that went to school and got to finish school and then go play. Interviewer. “Did you have any idea by this time about the scope of the league?” I guess as I look back on it, when I went home there was nobody there and most of them back there didn’t know anything about it. As I think back, I missed all the teenage things growing up, going to the beaches and going to the ballpark to cheer for the boys church team and that type of thing, but we didn’t talk about it and they didn’t know anything about it. That league was totally dismissed away from them. 34:57 They had no idea about it. Interviewer: “But they followed other sports like major league baseball and things like that? People talk about games don’t they?” Oh yes, the boys were very active; they had all their teams you know. The American Legion came in and organized all the boys and they had a team and they played and we had church league softball for the boys and all like that, but it was in the summertime and I didn’t get to play any of that. The American Legion came and said girls can’t play. Interviewer: “that amazes me because here you have been playing professional baseball and you would think they would want you on the team.” No 11 �Interviewer: “No way, so that’s 1950 we’re talking about now?” When I graduated from high school it was mid year, remember I had a half year I had to put in. Interviewer: “So you graduated from high school and had you any idea by that time, had your parents, for example asked you what you are going to do now? When you get out of high school are you going to be a teacher, are you going to do this? Did any of that kind of conversation go on?” Oh yes, you had to with the family, particularly my father, because he couldn’t see educating me, I’m a girl. I have a brother sixteen months younger than I am and if anybody goes to school it will be my brother. During that time I’m saving my money and with my grandmother’s help, and my mother, I got to go to college. My brother went right out of high school into the Air Force and stayed in the Air Force, that type of thing, so he never wanted to go to college and my dad in later years apologized to me about that as he was moving me –I’m getting all this in later times and I hope you can put it all together later, but the year I got my doctorate and he was helping me move back home, after that he apologized to me for that particular time. 37:03 Because of the league, and the point I want to make is because of the opportunity I had to play in this baseball league, that I was able to make money, I was able then to get my education and that was so important to a lot of the girls that played in the league. If it had not been for that opportunity there would not have been a college education for many of us, it certainly was for me. Interviewer: “Let’s go, I’m glad we went there, but I want to go back to 1950. Did you play for another team after that or are you still with the original team in 1950 after you graduated from high school? Well let’s see, I was in Kenosha until 1951. I played four years in Kenosha. I would go to school and I would go back to Kenosha, I would go to school and back to Kenosha and then in 1951 I started in college, 1950 really. 38:08 I ended up graduation in January of 1950 and I started college in September of 1950. Interviewer: “I’m trying to get in my mind the chronology here. Did you play professional baseball while you were in college?” Yes Interviewer: “Ok, that’s where I want to go next.” I’m in school, I’m at the ballgame, I’m in school, I’m at the team and that’s what I did. Interviewer: “So where—the Kenosha team was a traveling team though, right?” No Interviewer: “Ok, now I’m getting back on track here.” No, the Kenosha team wasn’t established, the last year that it folded, 1951, it did travel a lot. 12 �Interviewer: “Let’s go back to 1950, you’re going to college, but now you got a team that’s staying at home.” See, I’m in Alabama when I’m in school. Interviewer: “Ok, college in Alabama?” I’m in college in Alabama and then I go to Kenosha and then when I went to Fort Wayne the same thing was true. My first meeting with Jimmy Foxx I very well remember because I didn’t go until school was out and again school was not out until about the first of June and then I reported just as soon—usually it’s one day apart, I’m out of school one day and I’m on the train the next I’m at the ballpark, that type of thing. 39:25 The first day in 1952 when I went to fort Wayne, I met with Jimmy in the dugout and it was the first time I’d ever seen him and I didn’t know that much about him and the night before they had let one of their rookie players go to another team and it opened up a position at second base. I had never played second base, but Jimmy said, “you’re going to be our second baseman”, and I said, ”I’ve never played second base”, and he said, “You’re our second baseman”, and that whole year was one of my worst years that I remember, but it was a good year in many other ways. 40:09 Interviewer: “What made it the worst year and what made it a good year in other ways?” My baseball results were not good, batting was down, I had led the Kenosha team in batting and I was not doing that now, I’m in a strange position, but the strange position was that I was between the best short stop in the league and also the best hitter in the league. In 1952 Dottie Schroeder was the shortstop for the Fort Wayne Daisies. The only girl to play all twelve years in the league and Betty Foss, who was on first base, a great big girl from southern Illinois that was the league hitter in the league. 40:51 One of my favorite stories, Betty gets sick and Jimmy says, “Dolly you have been wanting to play first base”, and I told him I liked first base, “you have been wanting to play first base, so this is your time”, so that night we had a double header and I got to play first base and I had the best hitting, I think I went six for eight or something like that, and then the next year they put Betty in right field, she’s still a great hitter, and he put me on first base and now I outhit her and after that I was on first base. I earned my spot to be on first base. 41:34 That’s one of my favorite times. I had a bad time—when you’re not comfortable in the field it affects your batting. Interviewer: “I was going to say, you either earned the place or Jimmy finally figured out where to put you.” Well, Bill Allington the next year, but that experience Jimmy probably did have some influence in that particular event alone, but that’s one of my favorite times. Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights that you can think of during that period of particular games, not only for you, but maybe seeing another player make 13 �a play that was really amazing. There were a lot of them, but any one that you can think of?” It’s hard to come up with just one thing. There weren’t that many home runs hit because we were playing in big fields. I have a ball at home that is signed by Jimmy Foxx and it’s my prize possession right now and I’m trying to decide where I am going to want it to go. 42:40 August the 26th , I think it was, of 1952 when I hit that home run and I’ve got the ball and the teammates signed it, but Jimmy also signed it and he didn’t sign all that much. That’s a—but you’re playing with great girls, girls that were really great players. I played with Audrey Wagner in Kenosha and the influence again, she went on to be a medical doctor and I think the achievement of some of the girls following the time we were in the league was very influential to me, interesting to me, what all they went on to do. 43:20 Interviewer: “You know what interests me is that you were so young and that’s a very impressionable age and impressionable can go with who you are hanging out with. It can be very good or it can be very bad and in this case you had all of these incredible examples of girls that were doing really remarkable things and you kind of had to keep up to make sure you were being as good as they are, that’s got to be good training.” Well, so many things go back to, not only time on the field, but also time off the field. One of my memories of Mrs. Moore, who was the chaperone in South Bend, we were in Kenosha in the hotel, I think the Dayton Hotel, you’re in and away from home and with not much to do and they played cards, so they were playing cards and playing poker and I was just watching, I wasn’t playing and Mrs. Moore came in and got most upset with all them and got me out of that room, I wasn’t supposed to be doing that, so that was one of my early remembrances. 44:22 Mrs. Moore took a very close account of me that whole year. In fact, during practice when the first team would practice, Chet would let them go home and keep the rookies and the girls that played in the Knothole Gang, the younger girls in town, so some of my best friends were the younger girls in town. I wasn’t able to go with my teammates to the places they went for their entertainment and everything afterwards, but one family particularly, the McCrackens, that took me in. Their youngest daughter, my age, we became best friends and that’s another thing that will carry over to other years when I’m in Kenosha or anywhere else, it was not uncommon for that family to show up to support me. 45:11 Interviewer: “Your personal fan club huh?” Personal fan club, that’s right. It was very important to me because I could walk from where I lived to their house. I never had a car when I was in the league. I always depended on somebody else for transportation. Interviewer: “Let’s talk about the fans in the early days and then maybe later on in your career, how were the fans?” 14 �Great and you had selective ones, but overall the fans were very supportive, they really were. You made friends and like I said, I made some friends younger out in towns where I played because I was so much younger than the other girls. Interviewer: “In the early days in particular, the most you had ever had in terms of an audience when you were playing with these baseball teams when you were a kid, very different than going into a ball park where there’s paying customers out there. Can you recall in the early days what it must of have been like to walk out, and this is not the way it was when we played at home?” 46:18 I don’t really remember being awestruck in that way, it was just because by then I had been with the team. You go by bus, you get on the bus, you get off the bus and you’re playing seven days a week, double headers on Sundays and holidays, you didn’t have much off time. The off time you had was to go get ready, pack and go again. I don’t remember that, but certain fields you liked better than others. The Grand Rapids field always had this big factory in right field and that was a problem. The Rockford Peaches played in a—had a football stadium for part of their stands. Different fields I remember, Playland Park in South Bend had an auto racetrack around it, so those were kind of strange situations there. To be awestruck by—because you come out early before the fans get there and two hours before the game you’re on the field. 47:18 Two hours, and you had batting practice, you had infield practice, you had all of that before the game. Interviewer: “How about the press? Were there newspaper reporters around at any time? TV cameras or things like that?” We didn’t have TV cameras in those days, but certainly the radio people, there was an announcer at every park. Then there were reporters, yes they always had coverage of the local games in the papers. Interviewer: “Did you ever get interviewed?” I don’t remember so much being interviewed. Certain games were important, had a good night, maybe hit in a winning run or something like that. They always had those. Interviewer: “Did you have a scrapbook?” My mother did more so than myself. A lot of the things that I had in that scrapbook are in Cooperstown. 48:18 They have a file on me in Cooperstown that has a good bit, my personal letters to my family and that type of thing. Interviewer: “So mama was proud huh?” She was proud. Interviewer: “What was the last season you played? That was fifty?” 1953 Interviewer: “So in 1952 you are still playing, you graduated from high school, 1950-1951 you’re going to college and how many years of college?” Four 15 �Interviewer: “Four, all right, so all through the first three years of college you’re playing baseball?” Yes Interviewer: “By that time did it almost become a routine because you’re—every year you’re doing this, you’re going off to play and then you’re going to college?” Yes, and then it’s time to graduate from college. Now the year before, even though it was my best year in the league, I had some health problems. Primarily anemia. [I] didn’t eat right as a kid, all those years that I didn’t eat right, I had severe anemia and the chaperone had taken me to get me booster shots and all the things they do for anemia. 49:33 the first night they did that I was a leadoff hitter and I don’t remember the first inning of that game and going down the steps I passed out, so after that anytime I had to take those shots for anemia, I’d get a day off, but that type of thing. Memories of that type of event, the chaperone would take you to the doctor for an appointment and that kind of thing. 50:03 Interviewer: “You say it was one of your best years.” My best year of hitting, of playing first base, I’m more comfortable and Bill Allington put me as lead off hitter that was another one, so it just kind of worked out that way. Because of that year, though I’d had a good year—Bill Allington, I was in the game and I was on third base and I told him I wasn’t going to come back and he said, “are you sure”, and this type of thing because he wanted me to come back, but anyway, I didn’t go back. It was time for me to go on with my career at that time, I was looking toward teaching and getting started in teaching, that’s another whole story as to why. 51:01 I had a job so early after—I had an uncle who was superintendent of schools in Mississippi where they did play girls sports and he had another superintendent that was needing a basketball coach at that particular time and a teacher , so he helped me get an interview during spring break that year, so I made my interview and I had a job before school was even out, but then I didn’t go back to baseball. As it turned out 1954 was the last year of the league, so it worked out for me. 51:33 Interviewer: “I want to get into that. Was there any indication in the last year that you played that things were different, that the league may not continue on?” Yes, the number of teams that were in the league had changed, they had the traveling teams and I don’t remember too much about the history of that part because I’m playing every day, I’m moving every few days, so I really wasn’t aware of it as much as it actually was happening. It just wasn’t a part of my everyday and I wasn’t one to be that concerned about it, I was just playing every day. 52:12 Interviewer: “I had asked you earlier, when you were in high school did you know what you wanted to do, and of course you said that at that age you didn’t. When was it that you realized that you knew what you wanted to do that wasn’t baseball, but your career?” 16 �The teaching, the fact that in that the physical education teachers did the things that I liked to do and some of the girls that played in the league that were teachers, were going to college, for one thing they motivated me to go to college and to want to teach. Interviewer: “That was not coming from your family? Your family was not saying--your father, as you said and there’s no blame attached, I’m not trying to— but basically he just wasn’t thinking you were going to go there, but you saw the example of these other women.” That’s what motivated me. Again, it wasn’t that my father didn’t want the best for me and I tried to bring that out. It wasn’t that he didn’t want me to do well or have the best of things, but I had a brother and he was supposed to get all of that. 53:13 Interviewer: “So there was that period then in transition, how difficult was it, and I know this isn’t even a fair question, but how difficult was it and was there an actual time that you decided that, I’m not going to play that next year, I am going to go and be a teacher? I don’t know if there was any specific time, but probably my senior year in college. Again I went to a women’s college at that time, that was the way things were done, a women’s college, majored in physical education, no sports other than intramural sports, there was nothing back home in the way of sports and I had to go to Mississippi to even teach sports. I taught in the Mississippi schools because they had girl’s sports, particularly in the country schools and that’s where I started, but there weren’t any opportunities for girl’s sports. 54:15 I think that’s one of the things that’s been passionate for me, for the girls to have the opportunity to play sports. I didn’t think it should only be for the boys and I still don’t think it should only be for the boys. I think there should be opportunities there and that’s a whole other story, so get me out of that one. Interviewer: “Did you have any experience in basketball before that?” No opportunity in basketball. Interviewer: “But you’re going to be teaching basketball?” In college I learned because I had classes. I had basketball classes and in our physical education we had activity classes and theory classes in all of sports, so I ended up coaching basketball, track, tennis, things of this nature because that was the academic and background training that I had, but no practical coaching things except intramurally 55:09. Interviewer: “Now, during your college days did your fellow students know that you played professional baseball?” It kind of came that way, but I was late getting to college the first year, remember I’m playing baseball every year, I’m always late getting to school. By the time I got to school 17 �the person I was supposed to room with wasn’t even there and I’m getting another room mate. That type of thing was always a problem—I was late getting to school, all the introductions and orientations had already been done and I come on late, so it was always a little bit of a problem and other than some of my closer friends, people who were in the academic area, where most of my classes were, they knew, but that was a—and they didn’t understand, but they knew I was coming in late. 56:08 Interviewer: “Didn’t happen to have a Spanish teacher in college who gave you trouble too, did you?” No, no more Spanish. Interviewer: “ I want to go back to the conversation that you had, if you can recall it, with the manager, it wasn’t Jimmy, it was the new—who was the last manager you had?” Bill Allington Interviewer: “What was that conversation like where he tried to convince you to stay?” The biggest part was that one night, that one night on third base in the middle of the game, that was kind of strange. It must have been a timeout or something and he was talking to me and I guess he had gotten word that I wasn’t planning on returning the next year and he wanted to talk to me about it. Now Bill was the one that after the league folded, that put together a team of players and they travel and played against the men. 57:07 I had been out of the league for a whole year teaching and he still was contacting me to come and join that group, but I didn’t, I said, “I’m teaching, I’m happy, I am going to stay where I am”. I had enough of that traveling around. You know, seven years of suitcases and traveling and hotels and that type of thing. Interviewer: “What was his main argument about why you should stay?” He wanted me on his team in some position maybe and at that time I was having a good year and he certainly had been aware of it from the years he had been in the league as a manager. In my opinion, he was the best baseball man that I played under. Chet Grant was, I think, very good for me because he was a teacher. I think my memory of the things I’ve learned that he was a quarterback for Knute Rockne at Notre Dame, so his background is in the part of sports. Johnny Gottselig was my other manager in Kenosha and he was a Chicago hockey player, but he was a scout for Mr. Wrigley that’s how he got into the baseball part of it 58:23 Jimmy was a nice guy and he got much of the publicity that year, but Bill Allington, who had been a minor league player, was the best baseball man—he taught you baseball. Interviewer: “During the period of time that you played, through our conversation here, you were always concentrating on the playing and of course you had school, then playing, then school, was there any sense during that period that you were 18 �doing, and your fellow players were doing, anything remarkable beyond just playing baseball? The fact that you were good at playing baseball?” Just having fun, we were just having fun, I made a lot of friends, I had friends in the towns where we played, got to do things that other people didn’t get to do, opportunities that they didn’t have and when you go back home, nobody knows where you have been or what you have been up to , they just know you’ve been away. 59:24 It was a strange happening in that respect. Interviewer: “When in your life did you realize that other people recognized that period of time as being very special? You knew it was special because you played, but now we’re talking about a totally different thing. In history, people are looking back on the period and saying that this was so unique and had all this impact, when did it dawn on you, or did it dawn on you?” I don’t think it dawned on the people in my environment, where I lived. I’m in south Alabama, Mississippi where I taught, now in Arkansas where I live—until the movie came out, the movie “A League of Their Own”, until that came out and also the recognition by the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1988 after we became an organization or association, we tried to help with that and I think that was a first step there and that’s how Penny Marshall got a hold of things too was showing up in 1988 when we were there doing that recognition at Cooperstown. :39 Interviewer: “The movie portrayed, and I don’t want to get into the movie at this moment, but Geena Davis’s reluctance to go to that, what was your reaction to being informed that you’re being inducted? Did you get invited to go?” I was there. Interviewer: “Can you see where I’m going with this? I want to know, what was your reaction to this happening and did you say, “Oh, I’m going to go”, or did you think about it?” Well, I guess the interesting part is that one of my colleagues that I was teaching with, I invited her to go with me. Of course she didn’t know—she had played sports in high school and she was a physical education teacher like myself, but I invited her to go to Cooperstown with me and I think that was exciting. 1:29 I had been to the first reunion in Chicago; even my husband went with me in 1982 when we went to that. It’s kind of hard to put it all together in your head just exactly, but Betty Wallace, who is a colleague, went with me to Cooperstown and was with me during that. I was just kind of the kid on the block, the older gals were there, but I was one of them and that type of thing. 2:01 We traveled together and had to fly into Buffalo I guess it was and get a car to drive to Cooperstown because it wasn’t an easy place to get to and got to be there with people I hadn’t seen, it was an exciting time. Interviewer: “What was your reaction to going in there and seeing all that stuff? There were displays.” 19 �I remember being at the display area when—I think that is when it was really taking hold, the display area in Cooperstown. You would sit around and hear everybody talking, That’s what Penny Marshall was doing too with her tape recorder. When you get together you talk about old times, what it was like, where you lived, what you did and that’s when it really kind of—that was something kind of special, but until that was made into a movie and somebody else knew about it. 2:58 Now, in the areas where the teams were in Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin and Michigan where the teams played, a lot of the fans were still there, but in my part of the world, they had never heard of it. You would say something, I remember fellas I coach with—“no you didn’t do that, that didn’t happen, you telling me one” and that type of thing. I found one fella I coach with that finally said, “Ok, you’re an athlete”, because girls didn’t have that much of a background at that particular time, so I got to go down and workout with the team. Everywhere I’ve been, I’ve been initiating girl’s sports. That’s something that I thought was important, so I’ve been able to be active in that. 3:51 Interviewer: “Why did you go to the first reunion?” I just wanted to see everybody. That one in Chicago and my husband was willing to go with me, that type of thing and he had never heard anything about it either. Interviewer: “What was his reaction?” He went with me to support me, but he didn’t really know anything about it. Interviewer: “You didn’t talk about it?” No, you don’t, you would go home and you wouldn’t talk about it because there would be no one there to talk to about it. You didn’t want to go around broadcasting all the time unless somebody asked you a question or something, you just didn’t talk about it. It was another world. Even the boys I grew up with playing ball on the playground in later years, they didn’t know where I’d been either and we had a fellowship of those people called “The Pritchard Kids” for many years. Just last year we lost contact and I still hear from some, but we use to have an annual reunion with those kids we grew up with, went to church with, these were church people and that was another era. 5:00 Interviewer: “Two more for you, one is, how did that experience of playing professional baseball affect you personally, in terms of the person you are today? What was it about that time, was there any effect that happened during that time that kind of determined or molded or shaped the person that you are today? Certainly, The travel, the exposure to girls from so many different places. I have always really appreciated that, I have always been interested in people and one of the things about teaching, I’m interested in people and opportunities wherever I’ve been to provide sports, particularly for girls, because that’s been my area, recreation. 5:56 The fact that you can help make it better for somebody else, I think that’s a part of it too. I still am a sports nut I guess you would say because wherever I’ve been, I’ve supported all sports and just tried to make things better for the next group coming on and I’ve started programs, a softball program where I have to start and they won’t let us use the little 20 �league field to play on and we have to go in front of a dormitory at the university where there’s no—we made a field out of it. Even to go to the little league field and we have to wait until the boys get through in July before they would even let us go on the field and to put up with things like that. 6:48 Some of the girls that have now gone on to be productive citizens and are doing good in our community, they came from those little girls softball programs that we started and from that the women’s programs grew from that. To see that makes you feel good, that the girls are having opportunities today to do things that they never had a chance to do before. 7:09 Interviewer: “That leads me to my last one. This is kind of the big one, the big question. In terms of history, American history, history of we as a people, where do you think your little group fits in that whole big scheme of things?” The changing lives of women. I think WWII was the really big one for my generation and the times changed, women had to leave the home and the kitchen and the statement in the movie that stands out, “now that the men are coming back you women get back in the kitchen”. I’m sorry, you’ve opened the door of opportunity and were not in the kitchen, we’re out in the world being productive and doing other things and having other opportunities. 8:03 Opportunity is the key word; you have to have an opportunity. What would my life have been without that opportunity that someone saw something in me that they thought would do something in baseball and I go the opportunity to do that. Did I have any other skills that would have gotten me the door that opened for me to have an education, to travel and meet all these people, to have friends all over the country and to travel to Cuba? It’s opportunity; I don’t care what it is that you do, if you don’t have—if you have the greatest of skills, but you don’t have the opportunity to use it, it is completely lost. We have to have the opportunity to do things and we’re still on the threshold of that in women’s baseball because we’re trying to get it into the Olympics now and I’ve been trying to support the girls who are trying to play baseball today and we do have a number of them. 9:00 Some of them are right here in this program we’re doing today. There is a Team USA Women’s Baseball and I’m very proud of that and I’m hoping that one day we’re going to have the women to play that again because it’s ok, if it’s ok in one sport and someone is just written me some things in e-mail saying, “girl’s just want to play baseball too and softball is not the same game”. Interviewer: “Thank you so much.” You’re quite welcome. Interviewer: “This is wonderful.” 21 �22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_DWhite Title A name given to the resource White, Delores Brumfield (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource White, Delores Description An account of the resource Delores White (nee Brumfield) was born was born in Pritchard, Alabama on May 26, 1932. Growing up, she got her start playing baseball with the school and neighborhood kids. Following tryouts in 1946 she was told by Mr. Carey that she was yet too young. Apparently, after her tryouts Mr. Carey had misplaced her name and sought her out until he found her one day in a store. In 1946, she made the trip to Havana, Cuba. That same year she was placed with the Fort Wayne Daisies during her spring training period. At the end of spring training, she was chosen to play for the South Bend Blue Sox in 1947. She played with the Kenosha Comets from 1948 to 1951. She then played the 1951 and 1952 seasons with the Fort Wayne Daisies. During her league career she played first, second, and third base. Her career highlight was on August 26, 1952 when she hit a home run and it was signed by her teammates and Jimmy Foxx. One other highlight she had during her league career was her spring training in Havana. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-27 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5161681d57f3d7b75c66e5a8ec4384d7.pdf 95c80a32335525ffaf7f1c5b9f575f47 PDF Text Text THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA This is to certify that the accompanying flag was flown over the United States Capitol on October 8, 1982, at the request of the Honorable Harold s. Sawyer, Member of Congress. This flag will be presented to Mr. and Mrs. Peter Termaat on the occasion of his visit to Washington, o.c. '>r'7~1'4..4 ~ Ae M. White, FAIA rchitect of t1fe Capitol � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_AWD_1982-10-08-US-Flag-Certificate Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource White, George M., FAIA Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-10-08 Title A name given to the resource U.S. Capitol Flag certificate Description An account of the resource Certification that accompanying flag of the United States of America was flown over the U.S. Capitol on October 8, 1982 at the request of Harold S. Sawyer, Member of Congress. Subject The topic of the resource United States -- Flags Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/954152309d75bb9919a777a29bfeeb06.m4v 72958db3f978028e34f16fca33735750 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2f25470b1c9439be605248e50b1ff2ea.pdf 6e7856d97e9b988a11e58435d296e201 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Pia White Civilian (Japan) – World War II 1 hour 47 minutes 28 seconds (00:00:13) Birth & Parents' History -Pia was born in 1926 in Rome, Italy -Father (Kurusu Saburo) was Japanese and her mother was American -Father served as a diplomat for the Japanese government -Stationed at the Japanese consulate in New York City -Pia's mother's older brother worked for the Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company -He gave an extensive tour of the facility to the Japanese delegates -In the process he befriended Pia's father -Pia's uncle invited Pia's father to dinner which led to Pia's mother and father meeting -At the time, Pia's mother was a 19 year old student at Columbia University -Mother and father began dating and eventually got married -Father was transferred to Chicago -Pia's older brother and sister were born in Chicago -Family stayed in Chicago for three or four years -Family moved to Japan, then her father was sent to Rome -It is at this time that Pia was born -While in Japan, Pia's father's family welcomed Pia's mother and taught her Japanese customs (00:07:21) Early Life -When Pia was five or six months old the family moved to Greece -After Greece they traveled to Germany -From Germany they returned to Japan -Her earliest memories are of being in Lima, Peru -First languages she learned were Italian and Spanish -When she was six years old the family moved back to Japan (c. 1932) -She was enrolled in school, but couldn't speak Japanese -Realized other students were talking about her which prompted her to learn Japanese -Parents spoke English to each other -Lived in Japan for four years then moved to Brussels, Belgium (c. 1936) -Entirely different environment -Placed in a Catholic school run by nuns -Drank low-alcoholic/non-alcoholic beer during lunch instead of water -Brussels had poor water quality -Not many children lived in her neighborhood -Older brother had stayed in Japan, and her sister was too old to be a playmate -Learned to enjoy time alone, and spent her time reading and making things -Befriended two Brazilian girls -Learned French at the school in Belgium -Stayed in Brussels for three years (00:19:28) Return to Japan Pt. 1 -Japanese government chartered a ship to bring Japanese citizens and delegates' dependents to Japan -Her family traveled to Naples and boarded the ship there -It was a long voyage �-Traveled through Mediterranean Sea, to Suez Canal, through Indian Ocean, to South Pacific -Befriended a sailor that taught her to knit -Father stayed behind in Europe (00:21:52) Rise of Fascism -She stayed informed about world events -Sneaked into her father's office in Brussels and learned about events happening in Europe -Knew about the rise of the Nazis and other fascist regimes -Knew about the mistreatment of the Jewish people -Mother went to a Jewish doctor in Frankfurt, Germany -He told her about the discrimination and hostility he experienced as a Jew -Said that Jews were trying to get out of Germany, or better yet, Europe -Remembers the wife of a Polish diplomat talking about how Poland was in danger (00:25:27) Return to Japan Pt. 2 -Took two months to reach Japan -Stopped at Alexandria, Egypt, and went to Cairo -Saw the Great Pyramids of Giza and the Sphinx -Stopped in Singapore (00:27:55) Life in Pre-War Japan -Landed at Osaka where her brother worked, but she went to a Catholic boarding school in Tokyo -Didn't like the school because of the strictness of the nuns -For example, the girls weren't allowed to talk or make noise after dinner -Eventually begged her mother to make different arrangements -Started living with a paternal aunt in Tokyo -Only went to the school during the day, and went home at night -Nuns allowed her to teach the French class because she spoke French -A baron's brother donated a mansion to start a school for Japanese students that had lived abroad -Began attending that school -Taught by college professors -Received a college-level education while still in high school -When they returned to Japan, the war with the United States had not started yet (00:32:33) Beginning of War with United States -Lived at the family's summer cottage in a mountain village near Tokyo -Family had been renting their house in Tokyo -When her father returned to Japan (after the war began) he lived in the house in Tokyo -When the war began a lot of families moved to the village to avoid bombings -Took a train to school -She and the other older students taught the younger children basics (reading, math, etc.) -Enjoyable experience -When the war began foreigners were treated rudely in major cities -Men were drafted -Food became scarce which made breastfeeding difficult for young mother -Her mother started a clinic for young mothers -Had a doctor come once a month to help the mothers and their babies -She helped her mother collect old kimonos to be made into diapers -Japanese adored her mother because she helped the community -She didn't experience discrimination for being half-American (00:38:31) Food & Material in Wartime Japan -Shortages happened prior to December 1941 -The war in China required farmers to be conscripted �-This, in turn, caused lower food production -The war in China also required large amounts of food and material -Newspapers and radios were available in the village -Rode bicycle into farm country to collect food -Relied on a barter system -She and a cousin entertained the farmers as a way of getting extra food -Put on little comedy routines -One resident of the village was the executive of a French fertilizer company -Bought a cow, butchered it, and smoked the meat -Gave one of the legs to Pia's family (00:43:48) Working in the Police Station -Her mother learned that younger women were being conscripted to work in factories -She didn't want that for Pia, so she got her a job working at the village's police station -She helped translate conversations and documents since she was multilingual -High number of foreign citizens living in the village -Had to report to the police station when they left town and when they returned (00:44:33) German Refugees -In 1940/1941 the German government decided its women and children should return to the country -The original plan was to sail to Japan, then to Russia, and take a train back to Germany -Hitler's invasion of Russia in 1941 made the transfer of German civilians impossible -As a result, the German women and children were stuck in Japan -Many lived in a small enclave in Pia's village (00:46:38) Losing the War -Father came to visit and ultimately decided to move into the village -Shortly after that, the family's house in Tokyo was destroyed in a bombing -Her brother was drafted into the Japanese Army -He volunteered for Pilot Training -While traveling from Tokyo to her village a general and his staff boarded the train -He sat down next to her and he was a kind man -He had studied English and they discussed the language -When he got off the train he asked her name -That general became the commandant at her brother's pilot school -He recognized the last name and informed her brother he had met her sister -The general was eventually killed in action -Her brother was killed in action in 1945 a few months before the war ended -He was stationed at a major airfield conducting research on American planes -As the bombings became more frequent he was assigned to an aerial defense unit in Tokyo -On his first mission he encountered American fighter planes -By this time, America had gotten close enough to send bombers and fighters -On his first mission he was shot down and killed as a result (00:51:52) Morale of the Japanese -Her parents disagreed with the attack on Pearl Harbor -Brought the United States into a war that Japan could not win -Her father had been in the United States when the war began and was detained for a few months -He returned to Japan in 1942 as part of a delegate exchange between the U.S. and Japan -Two ships met in southern Africa allowing the delegates to return home -Knew that the news was propaganda because all of it sounded too good to be true -A friend was drafted and stationed at a fortification on a peninsula -After the war he told her that they had no rifles �-Expected to repel an American invasion using bamboo spears -When he showed American troops the fort he said the spears were for fishing -Embarrassed to tell them they planned on fighting with sticks -Heard horror stories about the bombings of Japanese cities -Went into Tokyo to take her final exams and stayed overnight during a bombing raid -Heard about the older section of Tokyo being firebombed -People jumped into a river to avoid the heat and were boiled alive -Morale got worse as the war progressed -Propaganda stayed the same as a futile attempt to bolster the people's morale (00:59:20) End of the War -Heard about the use of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki -Couldn't fathom that the atom had been used as a new weapon -Didn't know the details of the bombings until survivors talked about what they witnessed -Listened to Emperor Hirohito's surrender speech -Had never heard the Emperor speak before -Thankful that the war ended (01:01:50) Reflections on the War Pt. 1 -Most profound effect from the war was having an aversion to being cold -During the war they lived in the mountain cottage, but it was not suited for winters -Woke up freezing, with the air so cold that it made her blankets stiff -Learned how to cut firewood -Mother had bolstered her morale throughout the war -No whining, no self-pitying, just survive (xx:xx:xx) Post War -Stayed in the cottage for a long time after the war ended -Went into Tokyo with her sister to look for the ruins of the family's house -The heat from the firebombs turned the white stucco pink -Melted a stack of records into a single wax pillar -Remembers finding the house's bathtub hanging from its pipes -Only one house in the neighborhood survived the firebombs -Owned by a woman that had buckets of sand and water on her roof -When the bombs landed she picked up the bombs and dunked them in sand or water -By now she had been desensitized by violence, so seeing the house was a curiosity, not a shock (xx:xx:xx) American Occupation -First Americans they encountered were journalists that interviewed her father and foreigners -Took a few weeks before she encountered American troops -Remembers being at a train station and seeing a train full of troops -Some of them talked to her and were surprised she spoke fluent English -Once U.S. forces reached the village they took over the hotel to be used for R&R -She worked closely with the occupation forces -Had U.S. Army staff quartered in the hotel's villas -Helped find maids to clean the quarters -Began talking to an American officer in the 1st Cavalry Division, Lieutenant Ken White -He had helped design improvised, American-style showers at the hotel -The hotel had stables, so the Americans brought horses for the soldiers to ride -Lt. White allowed Pia to go horseback riding before soldiers came to ride -Another lieutenant revitalized the hotel's golf course -Hired civilians to pull the weeds and cut the grass -She played golf when soldiers weren't playing �-During the American occupation her parents rented a “storage house” in Tokyo -She stayed behind in the village to continue working (xx:xx:xx) Getting Married -Lt. White's enlistment ended, but he decided to stay in Tokyo and get a job at the Reparations Center -One day he called Pia and asked her to get married -She knew him and had worked with him for a year and ultimately decided to say yes -They got technically married at the American Consulate in Yokohama, Japan -Had their reception at the American Club in Tokyo -Had the religious ceremony conducted by a German missionary -The missionary's wife and daughter played the organ and violin for the ceremony -Her sister picked wildflowers for Pia's bridal bouquet -Wore her mother's wedding dress -Ken had to stay in Tokyo for work, and she continued to live in the village -When Ken's roommate left on business trips she stayed with him in Tokyo -After getting married they stayed in Japan for one year (xx:xx:xx) Returning to the United States -In December (1947? 1948?) she and Ken sailed back to the United States -She was pregnant with their first child and she got terribly seasick -Landed at Seattle -Remembers some of the soldiers on the ship had battery-powered radios -First time she heard radio commercials -Ken had a car in Japan, and he had it shipped back to the United States -It was unloaded at San Francisco -They took a train to San Francisco and picked up his car -From San Francisco they went to Los Angeles and stayed with Ken's uncle for a week -Drove back to Johnstown, Pennsylvania (Ken's hometown) -Stayed with Ken's older brother for a while -Moved to Dayton, Ohio, where Ken's other brother lived -Stayed there until Ken could start taking classes at Michigan State University (xx:xx:xx) Life after the War -Lived in East Lansing, Michigan, while Ken studied at Michigan State University -He graduated as an industrial engineer and got a job in Ohio with an earth moving company -They moved to Michigan where Ken got a job with the Brunswick Corporation's -Worked for the School Equipment Division -Lived in Kalamazoo, then transferred to Muskegon -He got a job in Grand Rapids, Michigan with a hardware company -While in East Lansing she took a History of Civilization course at Michigan State -She was pregnant with her second child -All of the college girls were fascinated with her pregnancy -Many had lived sheltered lives -Her parents stayed in Japan -Her father had a series of strokes and eventually died -After her father's death her mother continued to live in Japan -Ken invited Pia's mother to move to the United States to be closer to Pia and Pia's sister -Upon Pia's father's death, Pia's mother had become the matriarch of the family -Pia's father had been the oldest, and only son -This led to Pia's mother essentially being in charge of Pia's father's family -She enjoyed being the matriarch and feeling needed, so she decided to stay in Japan -She came to visit Pia and Ken while they were living in Cleveland �-She was the only living grandparent, and the children loved to hear her stories -Pia's sister had married an American lieutenant who made a career out of the Army -They lived in West Germany most of the time -She had two children -Only saw them when they came to visit -After he retired they moved to Texas, and lived there until they both died (xx:xx:xx) Reflections on the War Pt. 2 -It was a totally different maturing experience as opposed to a “normal” adolescence -She lived with the deprivation of food, the intense cold, and isolation -Got to do many things that she wouldn't have been able to do in the United States -Most traumatic experience was working at the village's police station -One of the officers was a member of the Kempeitai (Japan's version of the Gestapo) -She heard the interrogation and torture of “suspects” in one of the station's rooms -Officer realized she could hear the interrogations -Felt a young girl shouldn't have to listen to that -Moved the interrogations to an abandoned house away from the station -Deeply troubling experience for a young girl -Never told her mother about what she heard -Showed her the uglier side of humanity -Learned to accept circumstances and work within them without complaint � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WhiteP1934V Title A name given to the resource White, Pia (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-19 Description An account of the resource Pia White was born in 1926 in Rome, Italy, to a Japanese father and an American mother. Due to her father's job with the Japanese government, the family traveled all over the world, and she lived in the United States, Japan, and various other countries. In the late 1930s, Pia, her mother, and her siblings returned to Japan. She lived in Tokyo and attended school there. After Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, she and her family moved to a summer cottage in a mountain village near Tokyo. In 1942 her father, who had been in Washington, DC, at the time of Pearl Harbor, returned to Japan as part of an exchange of diplomats and he lived in Tokyo until he joined the family at the cottage. During the war she helped gather food and worked at the village's police station as a translator. In 1945, her older brother, a pilot, was killed in action during a bombing raid on Tokyo. After the war ended, she worked closely with the American Army of Occupation by helping manage the village as an R&R location for American troops. She befriended one Lieutenant Ken White and they eventually married, returning to the United States in December (1947 or 1948). They started a family and lived in Ohio and various cities in Michigan before settling in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource White, Pia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d9eecdc93df0e5f5229371fba793e1d.mp4 381ed79be00a4504467cf70e83178de4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2db96339cfe2bb924c6e3ea622618c72.pdf 0524254675251bbb29e36a50e67083b4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Raulend “Ron” Whiteis Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking with Ron Whiteis of San Diego, California, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay Ron, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: Chicago, Illinois in 1946. We moved to Indianapolis when I was 2. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And from the age of 3—all the way up from there, I didn’t really have any parental supervision. I used to wander the neighborhood. I did what I pleased. Really never got the memo on religion or anything like that. Interviewer: Okay. Well, were your parents both working or…? Veteran: My mother was deeply depressed and my father was working all the time as the head of Glidden Extraction in Indianapolis. Interviewer: Okay. And did you have brothers or sisters? Veteran: Actually yeah, I had 3 brothers and 2 sisters. Interviewer: And were they older? Younger? Veteran: 2 older brothers, 1 younger brother, and 2 younger sisters. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: So, I am kind of right in the middle. Interviewer: Alright. And where did you go to high school? Veteran: I went to Arsenal Tech High School in Indianapolis. It was a vocational high school. 78—76-acre campus. Very large. Interviewer: Alright. And when did you finish high school? Veteran: In 1966. I was supposed to finish in ’65 but I took a year off to go to the movies. I figured out the system, I worked it so I never got in trouble or got caught. For a whole year. Interviewer: You just kind of didn’t go to school? Veteran: I went every third day. Because after the third day, they had to get a note from a doctor. So, I went every third day. And then I took the rest of the time off. I had a really good time. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But mostly it was because they kept sticking me in vocational classes and I hated that. And I just didn’t—and I was dyslexic. I didn’t do well in school. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you know—were you diagnosed as dyslexic or…? Veteran: Not until I got to college. And the psychology teacher was talking about all of this stuff and said “Now don’t begin to think that you are part of that.” And I asked him afterwards, and he asked me a few questions and then after a while he said “You’re dyslexic, that’s what is wrong with you. You are not stupid.” And they gave me an IQ test and I take—I scored 126. But the one they gave me in 6th grade, I didn’t even make it to 100. Because I couldn’t read. (00:02:32) Interviewer: Okay. So, how did you wind up getting into college? Veteran: I wanted something different than the life I had. I grew up very poor and I don’t know where the idea came from but I decided I wanted—I wanted to know everything. I wanted to �know the world. And I thought that that would give me the world. It didn’t, but it taught me how to find out what I needed to know. Interviewer: Alright. So, where did you go to college? Veteran: I went to Southwest Texas State University. It is now called Texas State University. Interviewer: Okay. How did you wind up there? Veteran: I came home from Vietnam and served my last 6 months at Fort Hood. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I met a woman in Temple, Texas and I don’t know…I didn’t think I was going to get married but I thought this might be a good bet. You know? And so, we got married. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: My brother was David Garcia of ABC News. Interviewer: Okay. Well that’s sort of—that’s coming after your time in the Army. But now before. You graduate from high school in ’66? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And then, what did you do after that? Veteran: I worked for American Fletcher National Bank. I was doing computer stuff: check processing and balancing, accounts. Interviewer: Okay. So, you could work with the machines and things, you just didn’t read well. Veteran: Yeah. I didn’t have any problem with numbers, just reading. (00:04:04) Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, is this what you were doing until Uncle Sam came looking for you or…? �Veteran: Yeah. They turned me back the first two times because like I said, I was only 130 pounds and I was six foot three. Or six foot two. I gained another inch. So, that was fine with me because I didn’t want to go there. I was pretty much a wimp. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you know about Vietnam at the time? Veteran: Not very much. Not very much. I was too busy, you know, trying to figure out my life. So, I just—I really didn’t think about it, other than the fact that I didn’t want to go. You know. Interviewer: Okay. And so now when you finally do get the call—so when do you actually enter the Army? Veteran: I entered it in July of—the 23rd of ’69. Interviewer: Okay. And where did they send you for basic training? Veteran: Down in Kentucky at Fort Knox. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then down to Louisiana for AIT. Interviewer: Alright. Now you said you were not an athlete? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay, so what was basic training at Fort Knox like for you? Veteran: Like the Death March of Bataan. Every morning, we’d have to go out and run a few miles. And at the end of that, we were supposed to eat and I couldn’t. So, I became even skinnier. Interviewer: Did you eventually get into shape or get stronger? Veteran: Well, I found that there was a resilience in me that I hadn’t known before, that I would not give up. Especially when they would march us down to the rifle range every day, down Misery Hill and march us back up. And it just broke your heart because you think you saw the �top, and when you got to there, it turned and went further, and it kept turning and going further. And you—and everybody—half of the company dropped out. I wouldn’t quit. I wouldn’t quit. I didn’t know that about me. I just wouldn’t quit. (00:06:17) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: When I got to the top, I thought I was just going to keel over dead. I was just—I couldn’t see, I couldn’t hear. Moisture coming out of my eyes and mouth and nose and everything. I was pathetic. But I wouldn’t give up. And you know, I wrote about that because by the end of basic, the last time I walked up that hill, I didn’t break a sweat. You know? Interviewer: Mhmm. And did you eventually adjust so you could eat? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the—how did the drill instructors treat you during this process? Veteran: Well, we had a few that was…treated us badly. But ours was a—he recognized that most of us were a little bit older and said “Look, if you just try, we are not going to harass you like that.” And it was a good thing because we wouldn’t have put up with it. You know, you can get a 17, 18-year old. But when you get to be 22…you know… Interviewer: You actually had a company or platoon of you that were mostly older that they put together? Veteran: Yeah, ours. I don’t know how it happened but—well, kind of. A lot of us—there was 4 different things and a lot of us got to be every 4th number so we would be together. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We figured out okay, everyone—squeeze in line up every 4th person. And then we were all together. �Interviewer: Alright. So, you found your own way there. Okay, so—now, and then, what about the…Okay, so the discipline stuff wasn’t quite as bad maybe as it might have been for another unit? Or another platoon? (00:08:03) Veteran: There was one that they replaced the drill sergeant because he got out of hand. And had some blanket parties and stuff. And see I’d have just killed his ass. I would have at that time. I figured I was going to die. I am going to Vietnam and I am going to die, I won’t be back. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know? So, I don’t have to put up with that. Interviewer: Alright. But in the meantime, you survived basic training. And then off to Fort Polk, Louisiana for your AIT? Veteran: Mhmm. Interviewer: Okay, and what was that like? Veteran: Wet. I mean, dry and dusty and just more of the same stupid stuff. And then I got a chance to go to APC training and I went to that back in Fort Knox again. Interviewer: Okay, and then…explain what that is. Veteran: That’s an Armored Personnel Carrier. How to drive one, how to drive it across the water, how to swim it. Interviewer: Okay. (00:09:00) Veteran: And then when I got to Vietnam, they put me in the infantry. Interviewer: Alright. So, was the APC training on top of the infantry training at Fort Polk? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, you basically had 3 stages of training there. That was two. Veteran: Yeah. Well, if you’re already going, why not? �Interviewer: Okay. Now at Fort Polk, what—how was that different from Fort Knox in terms of what you were doing? Veteran: I think that they were a little less intense at Fort Polk. And they were willing to listen to the men. And one of the men went down and told the—wanted to see the commanding officer and said the food here is awful. And he came down and tried it and raised holy hell. And then he came down there every day to ask is this good? Is it good enough? You know. Got any complaints? Tell me. And we had good food from then on. (00:10:00) Interviewer: Alright. So, you’re experience in the Army has allowed for some push back. Okay. Now, how did the APC thing happen? Were you just…? Veteran: They asked if anybody was interested in signing up and I signed up. I didn’t think they’d call me but they said yeah. So, then they shipped me out there and I learned how to drive one of those big—it was fun. It was fun. You know? Interviewer: Alright. So, you just got to play with big machines basically? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And how long were you then doing that? Veteran: I think that was like a 6-week course or 5 weeks. I don’t know, it wasn’t very long. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, when did you finish that? Veteran: Sometime in the early part of December, I think. Because that meant I had a month leave, and then I had to report back: California, January…I want to say the 12th. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You know, they just processed us, put us on a plane, flew us to Japan. Alaska to Japan, and then Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay. Was it a military plane or a chartered civilian plane? �Veteran: I don’t know. It was a pretty big—pretty big plane. There was no first class. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They wouldn’t let us off and it was a little disheartening when we got to Japan and all the crew got off, then flew us to Vietnam you know. Interviewer: Okay. And where did you land in Vietnam? Veteran: I want to say up near Huế or Da Nang. Da Nang I think. Interviewer: Da Nang quite possibly, yeah. Veteran: Yeah, Da Nang. Interviewer: Okay. And then what happens to you when you get off the plane? Veteran: They put us in some crappy barracks and that’s when I found out that I should have brought money because people were having little quiet meetings with the people who were assigning jobs. And I snuck around and looked and saw they were passing money and I thought why didn’t I get the memo on this? I could be in Saigon. You know? In a comfortable berth. Interviewer: What did you get instead? Veteran: I got to go to Huế and then up near the…I am trying to think. It was Fort Campbell firebase. It was up near Quang Tri. (00:12:18) Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. I am not sure which—there is Camp Carroll but that is a little bit farther inland. Veteran: Well, this was out. Interviewer: Okay. But basically—Okay, well what unit were you joining? Veteran: The 101st airborne division. Interviewer: Okay. And when you first come up to join the 101st, do they give you some kind of orientation before you go to your unit? �Veteran: Yeah, they had the—we’d be on call all night long at the perimeter. And then they’d have some classes and I fell asleep in one and the lieutenant gave me a grenade to handle and took the pin out and said “Now you won’t fall asleep.” And I said “Boy, you really are the stupidest motherfucker I have ever seen in my life because when I fall asleep, I won’t know. You all will be dead.” Interviewer: So, what happened to the hand grenade? Veteran: Well, he was very nervous and cut the short—cut the lesson short so he could get it back and put the pin back in it. But I thought that was stupid. You know? I could have fallen asleep and killed everybody there. Interviewer: Alright. Now, did they teach you anything useful in that training? Veteran: No. No, not at all. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: All conventional, not jungle. Interviewer: Alright. So, you get a few days of that and then what specific unit do you join? Veteran: They sent me out to the unit…I think it was 2nd battalion of the 506th? Interviewer: Okay, 506th regiment. Okay, and then which company? Veteran: Company B. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the captain there took one look at me and said something disparaging and get rid of him along with that other one too because they don’t look fit. He was a gung-ho, Rambo type and so they shipped me off. This was a lucky thing, you know. Because they shipped me off to a bunch of short timers. And I begged them to show me everything they knew about staying alive �because they survived the A Shau Valley and they must know something. And they did. (00:14:22) Interviewer: Okay, now just explain this a little. So, you go in to—was the company in the field? Or were they on the— Veteran: Yeah, they were in the field. On the hilltop. Interviewer: Okay, so what was the company commander—he just didn’t want to look at you? Or…? Veteran: No, he said something about what the fuck is this crap here? You know. Get rid of it. Interviewer: Okay, but he wasn’t—they didn’t actually send you— Veteran: He wanted robust men to go out and fly out at a moment’s notice to fight. Interviewer: Sure. Okay. Veteran: And I didn’t look the type. Interviewer: Yeah, well that part I get. I am just kind of wondering: did he expect you to get sent back to the rear? Or…? Veteran: No, just send me to a platoon that wasn’t doing anything, to get me out of the way. Interviewer: Okay. So, you moved on. But then—and then that’s the point where you kind of connect with a guy who— Veteran: I was very lucky. They taught me everything I needed to know. And I used that information to stay alive. Interviewer: Okay. What kinds of things were they teaching you? Veteran: How to not make a trail. How to quietly go through, how to spot if there’s any kind of mines or booby traps or anything like that. How to read a map: how to be able to look at that map and see the best route from place to place. It’s not easy. How I could take them up and down a �mountain instead of down in a path. How to train everybody around me to hand signals so that they wouldn’t make any noise. We had to—I felt like I was following my father’s Indian tradition to—you go through the land and never make a mark. And it was great. And I took over my platoon because of that. I was a private and I felt I knew more. I wanted to live and so I took over the platoon walk point for 9 months. (00:16:10) Interviewer: Okay. At what point did you start doing that? Veteran: Well, as soon as those guys got dropped to go home and they reorganized and put me in another platoon. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so— Veteran: When I say I controlled it, I did. The sergeant was a short timer. He didn’t care. And anytime we got somebody that couldn’t get with the program, I had the company ship them off and somebody else could come into the platoon. You know? Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so remind me again. So, when did you arrive in Vietnam? Veteran: I arrived there about the 12th of January in about— Interviewer: That’s right. Veteran: By the end of January, I think I was in another platoon. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I learned quite a bit about—I’m not bragging, I am just saying this is what happened and I have—at the time, I had never led anybody. I had never taken control, I never—suddenly, there’s a different person here. Who thinks, okay, if I am going to live, I better have a hand in this. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have a lieutenant commanding the platoon? Veteran: No, we just had a sergeant. �Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so he was supposed to be providing leadership and… Veteran: Yeah, but he was a short timer and I think he kind of realized I knew more or something. He didn’t—I don’t know why, he just let me take charge of everything. Interviewer: And pretty much the rest of the guys were new guys now? Veteran: I am sorry, what? Interviewer: Were the rest of the guys new guys after that first group left? Veteran: Some of them were fairly new, along with me, and some of them were there a while. But they stuck to me. They stuck to me and I didn’t find out until much later. I felt my mission was to stay, number one—me, alive. And then protect and keep everyone in my platoon. Nobody was killed, nobody was injured. We weren’t run over. One of the few platoons that were never run over by the enemy. And I just chose to travel everywhere that would be unlikely to run into any kind of trouble that would hurt anybody. (00:18:24) Interviewer: Okay. So, at this point in time, your platoon is normally operating by itself? Veteran: And then every so often, after two or three weeks, we’d join up with the company and we’d… Interviewer: Okay, now what comp—what area were you operating in in January, February, early in the year? Veteran: Early in the year, we were down in the lowlands just by the mountains. By the foothills. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we did have some hilly country there but we weren’t up in the mountains. Interviewer: Alright. And was there much enemy activity at that point? Veteran: No. No, really not. And in March we went up there and was put on the firebase to guard it while they opened up that firebase. I don’t remember the date of it but I know it was in March. �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So…But then we were off again, roaming around the mountains. Interviewer: Alright. Well, your company—I mean I guess the 2nd battalion 506th that you were with—you were with them and they had the job of setting up a firebase on the hill that comes to be known as Ripcord. And the first attempt was in March and A company went in and they were not successful. April 1st, B company was sent there. Veteran: So, that was in—I thought it was March but that was… Interviewer: Oh, okay. So, what is— Veteran: I lost track of time. Interviewer: So, what do you remember about that? Did you actually land on Ripcord yourself? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, what happened that day? Veteran: I don’t remember much of anything except that I was trying to find a bunker. And I had seen the one down at the very end being built. And I chose that one, to be down at the very end, because it was a better-built bunker than any of the others. And just guarding the place until they took us off. (00:20:15) Interviewer: Okay. Well, that’s later because the April—1st of April, B company lands and then they leave at night. So, you’re just there on the hilltop for a day and did not establish the base. So, you don’t remember that? Where were you do you think, April 1st, 1970? Veteran: Not sure. I remember that they were building a lot of the bunkers when we got up there. They weren’t finished. And they were bringing in cannons, the 105s and the— Interviewer: Okay. That would come later once they actually had taken over the hilltop. �Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But there was, B company was on and off in the space of about a day and then they were back patrolling the jungle again? Veteran: Yeah. I remember we were just shuffling. It didn’t make much sense to me. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You go where you’re told. Interviewer: Okay. So, it wasn’t really registering with you at that point what exactly was going on? Veteran: No. Interviewer: You were on a hilltop, then you left the hilltop, and then you were patrolling. And then you come back later and the base is now under construction. And you wind up being kind of on perimeter guard for that. When you are patrolling around in the jungle, around the time when they were—before you wind up with the regular duty up on the base, was there much enemy activity out there then? Veteran: No, really there wasn’t. Well, a few others run into it. Quite frankly, I tried to avoid that as much as possible. Interviewer: Okay. Now, your platoon—was the company still operating mostly in platoons at this point? Veteran: I remember still being in platoons and running around on some of the mountains and everything and meeting up with the, every so often, with the company. Interviewer: The rest of the company. Veteran: And then dividing up and going again (00:22:01). �Interviewer: Okay. And…let’s see. So, how long were you spending out in the field, at one time? Veteran: Well…I am trying to remember. Pretty long time. We didn’t much get stand downs. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I had heard of them but we didn’t get them. I got a stand down because I got cellulitis in my knee. Puffed up real big. And they put me on a—it was foggy, you couldn’t see anything. And they had a ‘copter come in there, a slick. Put me on that slick and sent me back. And I thought well, this might kill me. You know, fast. And then the doctor said you must stay in bed and you must have them bring food to you and I thought I am not doing that. You know? And then at the…the sergeant, the company sergeant, put me on the garbage truck you could at least work. And the physician came by, the doc, and saw me and made me get down. And raised holy hell about it. And that’s when I found out that I could easily lose my leg. And—because I had to go every morning and have a shot of penicillin. You know. And that’s, you know. So, that’s when the sergeant took a dislike to me. I think he thought I ratted him out but I didn’t. It was just coincidence the doctor saw me and said “What the hell are you doing up there? Get down.” Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know. Interviewer: So, this is just one of those infections you get in the jungle? Veteran: I don’t even know what caused it. Could have been a scratch. Who knows? But it just swelled up like a melon. You know, and I didn’t realize it was that bad. I just thought well, you take a little penicillin, you’ll be fine. Interviewer: Okay. Well, that attempt—I mean maybe, that might have been when the company first went to Ripcord. (00:24:04) �Veteran: It could have been. Interviewer: Because it was fairly dramatic in most of their stories. But if you weren’t there then… Veteran: I don’t remember it so it probably—I was back at base for about 2 or 3 weeks. Interviewer: Yeah, that could be right in there because eventually B company does go there and they are the ones who do much of the perimeter guard work. And your recollection is going to that base and picking out your bunker? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Now, describe a little bit then what the firebase looked like? Veteran: Well, it was pretty barren. You know, they had all kinds of bunkers built in various, you know, construction. I picked the one that was built the best. And there was a lot of traffic in and out. And we had a select helicopter shot down bringing in ammo. They managed to get over to the pad and set down and then they come out and took it away. They didn’t learn anything that the reason the firebase blew up was because they shot one down over it and it blew up and the ammo dump blew up and the war pits went up and then the 105s went up. It took 11 hours of concussions before it finally finished. Before that we were on a hill. 805—his company—we took that hill because they were using it to shoot onto the firebase. So, we took it away from the enemy. We had a…what do you call that? We went en masse and helicopters went in… Interviewer: Combat assault. Veteran: Combat assault. And we took that. So, it meant—interesting things happened up there at the time. One, we were constantly getting struck by lightning. I mean one time, I thought there was an explosion. Another second later, it ran up my legs and made my heart beat funny, then ran back down again. And I thought whoa. I was—I did not, I wouldn’t get in the foxhole �because it was filled with water and I was afraid. The ones that were in the foxholes when it hit—they got it the worst. So, I laid down beside it. A mortar came in and there was a great big flat faced boulder. And it hit the boulder and went up like a ball of static right over the top of me. And I woke up to that, you know, and rolled over into the…And three of them, the commander and the medic and I think the lieutenant came rushing out there, because they thought I’d be dead. And they couldn’t find a scratch on me. They’re like this can’t be happening, you know, where you get hit right, like, between me and that door. It was that close. You know? Another time, the company commander came over to me and said “Get your guys together.” And I thought get your guys together? I’m a private. And he said “And go down there and check that out because that’s where they’re sneaking in on us.” And I didn’t want to take that order and I didn’t want to disobey it either so I had a thot come with me, which is a shotgun but shoots grenades. (00:27:36) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And I imagine—I went to the edge of the thing, and I imagine the grid. And I started firing them, further and further out. The company commander comes over and says “What the hell are you doing?” And I said “Making a path, sir.” And he thought about it and he said “Carry on.” And it turned out really good because when we went down there, they had—the Viet Cong had dropped all of their weapons, including a machine gun and ran off. (00:28:07) Interviewer: So, there were Vietnamese trying to get into the perimeter? Veteran: Oh yeah, every night. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We didn’t fire back. We didn’t let them mark our positions. Interviewer: Okay, so what— �Veteran: We had a lieutenant that was great with artillery. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And he would call it in on them every night. Close. Interviewer: Yeah, so—so they basically said—would they get into the wire? Or were they outside of the wire? Veteran: Well, we didn’t put wire up on the hill 805. Interviewer: Oh, that’s 805. Okay, I am sorry, I was thinking of Ripcord in the south but you are talking 805. Veteran: Oh no, we hadn’t gone yet. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: The company C decided that they wanted off Ripcord because they were constantly getting mortars in on them. And I don’t know how they arranged it but one day we got notice that, I think company A, came in to cover for us and we got to the firebase and took over for them. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Walked over and they went off into the jungle. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, yeah, so you have your field time with—around hill 805. When—did you have any Vietnamese scouts with you? Veteran: I had a scout earlier than that. For a very short time. I don’t know what happened to him. Nobody wanted him. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: So, I said “Okay, he can hang with me.” You know. And he used to cook up all kinds of strange food and share it with me because he wanted me to taste this and try this. Well, it could have been dog for all I know. You know? But it was better than C rations. Interviewer: Okay. And was he any good as a scout? Veteran: I really don’t see that he had any input whatsoever, he was just sort of there. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know, and he didn’t advise me to anything. He figured I was doing pretty good, I guess. I don’t know. I remember that time that I used to keep all the food that they sent out, where other GIs threw their—some of their least liked food away. Because when we ran out of food and everybody was real hungry and they’d come over and want some food, I’d give them that food. And also, I was known as the library because I carried several books. And people would bring me a book and they would exchange it for another book because sometimes you’d be out there and you’d be camped out there and no place to go and nothing to do. And they would read for a little while, you know, to take their mind off things. You didn’t get to read very often but you know, it was there. And so, I carried a lot of books. Books are special—were precious to me at that time. (00:30:53) Interviewer: You were able to read them? Veteran: Well, not very much at a time. You know? I remember that when we were—when the firebase was exploding, I had a book called How Green Is My Valley. I still have it. I haven’t read it since. But I would talk to myself: if I could just read one more page, and then think about what to do, it would keep me from panicking. Because they would come around and jump into the—my little pit in front of my bunker and you could see in their eyes. They were like some psychotic horse in a burning barn. And you’d try—I tried to talk them into coming in and �staying, but after a little while, they’d jump up and run off the mountain. You know, so…I pretty much was on my own but it used to scare the hell out of me when they would just jump in. Interviewer: Alright. (00:32:00) Veteran: You know, you could see that you couldn’t reason with them. You could see that they were beyond reason. Fully panic mode. And I, every time, it made me panic and made me feel like I should run too. And I thought no, that’s not safe. Interviewer: Well, was there even a place to run to? Veteran: Well, just off the hill. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Off the mountain. And I don’t know what happened. Some of them, I guess, got killed running off the mountain. But I managed to just…I’d sit there, read the book, and I don’t remember what I read and I read the same page over and over, about 20 or 30 times that day. You know, trying to, you know…A little candle in there to read by and try not to panic, try to hold it together. Try to, you know, tough it out. And I guess I was down there—my mate for the bunker left and I don’t know where he went and I was down there by myself for 3 days. Trying to stay awake and falling asleep. Trying to figure out the enemy were coming up the mountain at any time. You know and…And I would have still been down there until the enemy come up, if somebody hadn’t thought to send somebody around to all the bunkers to make sure everybody was out. Interviewer: Okay. So, basically, you’re in the last weeks of the Ripcord campaign. There’s a period there in July of 1970 when essentially there is regular bombardment happening. And you’re pretty much pinned down in the bunkers most of the time? Veteran: Well, we came out and did stuff and then run to other bunkers. �Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I was cleaning up on the top of the hill some stuff and taking it to the side of the hill, the top of the hill and throwing it off. This was after the explosion, everything blew up. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And we’d get incoming rounds and I would run in this bunker but that one day, a series of things happened and I don’t know how. But 4 or 5 guys, I guess they are rear echelon people because they had no sense, to walk all the way down there in a group. You know? And it really irritated me. And they—we got incoming, and they ran into the bunker that I was using. So, I went across the top of the hill to the bunker on the other side and it was not a very well built one and I thought this is really dumb. Through all of this explosion, you are running across the top. And then when I got all clear and came out, they took a direct hit right in the doorway. It killed two or three and injured a whole bunch of others, and I would have been one of those. And just because I got angry that they were all lollygagging around, coming down the top of the hill like they were back on the—home on their block. You know, I knew they weren’t infantry. The infantry wouldn’t have walked all together like that. So, and I just—it really irritated me. Now, I wouldn’t go in there. (00:35:13) Interviewer: Okay. Now, was this on the last day? Or…? Veteran: No, it was not— Interviewer: A couple days before? Veteran: A couple days before, because then they told us to get in our bunkers and stay there. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And then I stayed there a couple days by myself. And I… Interviewer: Now, was it normal to have just one man in a bunker? �Veteran: No, it was supposed to have 2 but I don’t know what happened to the one that was in there with me. He may have run off the mountain, he may have gotten killed. I don’t know. There was nobody to talk to and I didn’t have a radio to contact anybody and I was just down there and that was my post. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then that’s where I had to stay. Interviewer: Alright. And…So, we get to the last day, which would be July 23rd at that point, and they evacuate the hilltop. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And so, you were just there and somebody came to get you? (00:36:03) Veteran: Yes, somebody came around to say send somebody around to all the bunkers, check to make sure everybody was out. And they come down there and say “What the hell are you doing here? We are leaving! Get up to the top!” So, I got all my stuff together in my rucksack and everything and I thought—my legs were all shaky from fear that they would leave me. And I started up the trail and I thought that’s really stupid because you can’t go around the side from bunker to bunker because you don’t have the strength in your legs. You know? And about halfway up, I looked, I was looking around, and there was no sign of anybody and I thought they had left me and I kind of gave up for a minute. And I just kept wondering why they didn’t lob something in on me or kill me, you know? I was a perfect target. I didn’t know at that time that the Vietnamese—Viet Cong—were coming up the mountain at that time. And so they stopped firing on us for fear of killing their own men. (00:37:05) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So— �Interviewer: So, there was no incoming fire then at that point, when you are scrambling up the hill? Veteran: No, nothing. It was just dead quiet. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I almost gave up. I had the moment of giving up and then I decided, I don’t know, something kicked in. And I decided this is not where I am going to die. And I cussed myself. Move it. Move one foot after the other. Come on, you can make one more step. And I did that all the way up to the top. Crawling along real slow. And when I got to the top, two guys ran out and grabbed me and ushered me into the bunker up there. Lieutenant said “Get to the back drop, everything. Get back up here and in line.” So, I went back there, I put a long range patrol in this pocket, I put my wallet with all my family pictures in this, I put on a canteen, I put two bandoliers of ammo, I grabbed my thump gun and I grabbed my M-16 and I went up there and he said “Drop all of that! You can’t take that with you.” And I said “The hell I can’t!” Now, where do you go from despair to total anger? And I said “Because if that helicopter gets shot down and I’m not dead, I am walking out of here. I’ve got my map, I can do it.” And I just knew that I would do it. I knew that I could go out at nighttime, because I had a terrific night sight. In fact, when there was only stars, I could see the enemy on another hilltop, moving around. Other people—I thought everyone could see that well but they apparently can’t. (00:38:40) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I just knew that I was going to get out of there alive if it didn’t kill me. And then the helicopter was coming in, he didn’t have time to argue. He said “Go!” and I ran out there and jumped on the helicopter before it even hit the ground. And 4 or 5 guys jumped on top of me. And they bounced and took off down the side like that and an explosion went off and I thought �we are hit, we are going down. And then the next thing I know, they were coming up and going out through the valley. And I thought wow, I thought we were hit. You know? And then everybody got off me and sat up and I was able to sit up and look around. I thought this is, you know…When I was up there, there was only about 10 or 12 people left in the bunkers, so I know that there was only one more slick coming in. Those helicopter pilots…They are the bravest people I have ever heard of. They kept coming, no matter what. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They got us out. No matter what. Interviewer: Now, were they getting fired on? Veteran: All the time. They were getting hit. I remember one coming towards the mountain and I said “Everybody get down, he’s been hit and I don’t know if he’ll make it.” He just barely made it over the lip before he—it conked out. You know. But you could tell he’d been hit. So, they came in. I don’t know, I’d never seen anything that brave before. They came in and they got us wherever we needed them. (00:40:16) Interviewer: Okay. So, when you were making your trip from the bunker back to where the helicopters and stuff were coming, so that part, you were not taking fire? Veteran: No. Interviewer: That was just quiet. But once you get over to the side—well I guess, when maybe when the helicopters came in, did they all start taking shooting? Veteran: That’s when they came in. They had it all marked out. They had it all zeroed in to that pad. And they would come in low and they would come up on top like that and set down. And I jumped on it before it even set down. And 4 or 5 guys jumped on top of me, it bounced and off it �went. And the explosion went off and I thought we are hit. We are going down. But that was on purpose; they went down low and went out through the valley. Interviewer: Yeah, and I guess before you left the bunker, when you were still down there in the bunker line, did you see any Vietnamese out there? Veteran: No. I kept thinking they would be coming up the mountain soon, because we didn’t have anything to protect us, you know, other than the perimeter guards. And they never did. I thought that was odd and I don’t know, I thought it was odd that nobody was shooting at me while I was making it to the top. Because I was a good target. You know? I was very—moving very slow. I had the most dreadful case of wobbly knees. The whole way up there I thought, you know, there’s no way, they’re gone. They left me. You know, there’s not a single person in sight, not a helicopter coming in, not a sound. I had been left. I don’t know what I was going to do. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So… Interviewer: So, now you’ve made it back, and you get back to Camp Evans. Now what happens? Veteran: I stood on the pad. We were told to go to the company but I couldn’t leave until I saw the others come in. You know, I just stood out there and I watched the helicopters come in to see if all of our men came in and everything. I just—I couldn’t leave it. I felt like why me? I’m her safe. They are still out there. So…And then we had to turn in all our weapons and everything and go to our company. And then they took us to Beatle Beach? (00:42:36) Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: For our serve—that’s the first time we got R and R. That was already in July: from January to July, you know, that’s the first time we had a set down. You know, stand down. And �that month, they sent all of my money…No, it wasn’t that month. Yeah, it was. They sent all of my money home. I had an allotment for my widowed mother. And they sent all of my money home that month and I didn’t have any. And so, the guys shared up some money. And because I didn’t drink beer because beer made me sick, one of the officers kept going in and getting me a high ball and bringing it out to me so I would have something to drink, you know. Interviewer: So, he could get liquor in the officers’ club but you couldn’t get it? Veteran: You couldn’t get it, you know. Interviewer: The enlist club. Veteran: I am 22 year—23 years old at that time. But not allowed to have, you know, hard liquor. Interviewer: Alright. Now, after the whole R and R kind of period there, do you go back out in the field again? Veteran: For a long time, we were supposed to wait until we got more people in and they kept having us do little things and training and all kinds of stuff. It was just to keep us moving, you know, and finally, I guess we went back out sometime in August. But we didn’t go all the—they had such bad weather, they trucked us out. And dropped us off out there in the foothills of the rolling hills. We didn’t go back up the mountains right then. And then, my R and R came up and I was called back in to do my R and R. And I had put down, I had purposely put down R and R for September so I could get Australia because I thought well that would be great to see Australia, but the previous company clerk sold it to somebody else. (00:44:43) Interviewer: Oh. Veteran: And I wouldn’t take R and R. I said “If I can’t go there, I will just sit here for a week. I don’t care, it’s not a big deal.” “No, you have to go someplace.” I go “I am not going to Bangkok �and I am not going to others.” Some of these guys came back with some dirty diseases that I couldn’t walk near, and I am not…Of course, I—mostly it was because I was a virgin. So, I wasn’t going to go do that activity. I just—it felt so sleazy. So, they said, “Well, if you’ve got somebody that could come meet you in Hawaii, we will send you there.” I said “The only person I’ve got is my mother and I don’t know if she’d come.” They sent out the paperwork and everything and she met me in Hawaii and we paddled around on the…Hawaii. The people there wouldn’t let me buy or pay for anything. Everywhere I went, you know, no matter whether it was a store or anything, they just kept saying “Oh no, no, no. No money.” We went to see Don Ho. And for my mother’s age, she was a good-looking woman and being a widow, Don Ho had somebody come out and ask her if she’d come up on stage with him. He had a bar in the back. So, he kept her up there for hours and I am like when do I get my mother back? You know, and he was…it looked very intimate. It was kind of embarrassing: my mother is being romanced up there by Don Ho, you know? And you’re not going to give her back? Do I discreetly leave and pick her up later or what? I don’t know what to—what’s the protocol? You know? So, eventually they sent her back and they had taken pictures up there and gave us the pictures of her up there with—so that she’d have a memento. And it was very interesting. You know. And we went to a few night clubs and saw some acts. I got to see some…what do they call that? The—it’s a famous bar there that all the celebrities went to. It was right in the…it was right in one of the main hotels or something. I can’t think of it now but I went in there and I thought this is where the celebrities meet? It’s so tiny. You know, it’s just a bar and there’s no tables and stretches on down to the end. You know? And we stayed at the…I can’t even remember the hotel we stayed in. It was right there on the beach. So, it was interesting. I enjoyed the time that we spent there, you know. It was the first time I was able to get any news of anything going on. They, you know, �I hadn’t heard anything since July of ’69. I had no idea what was happening in the world. (00:47:52) Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I had never heard of Kent State. And even to this day, somebody will say something about—in the past and I’ll think I don’t remember that…Wait a minute, was it in 1970? Yeah. And that’s why. You know, it’s like you’ve lost a year of memory. So… (00:48:13) Interviewer: Okay. And then, what was it like having to go back to Vietnam at that point? Veteran: Well, it was…it was kind of sad. With—I thought, well, you know you made it this far. Maybe you’ve got a little luck still. You know. I figured it was about fifty percent luck and fifty percent know-how. And that’s kind of modest. Well, not very modest but it’s the way I felt about it, you know. And so, we went back there, we went up in the mountains for a while and…Patrolling around and not much happening. Then next thing I know, they were calling for me to go back early. And then they put me on perimeter and they processed me and we were out there for a couple weeks, I think. And this Indian guy, Gabe Muselah. I remember his name because he saved my life. He—when I first met him, he was shipped out there and he went around and talked to a lot of people and got to me and asked me questions about things. And apparently, whatever I said was right because then—from then on, he stuck close to me in our troop, you know. He was looking for the best possibility for himself. And I understand that. I was, you know, I wouldn’t want to be with some of those. GIs are dangerous, especially if they don’t know what they’re doing or they do something stupid. You know? We had a guy carrying a clay bird, always putting it on. And I said “Don’t do that, get rid of that. That’s dangerous. You go out there one of these times, they’re going to booby trap it.” “Oh, no, I look at them pretty careful.” Went out there one time, blew it up, he was dead. It was very shocking, you know. I �shared a nighttime position with him. And they put his body in a bag and this sounds a little…little insane. I spent the night talking to him. That’s crazy. (00:50:29) Interviewer: You mentioned that fellow, you said he saved your life? Veteran: Gabe. He—some, one of newcomers came in, they thought they heard a noise and they popped a grenade. I already lost hearing. I didn’t hear it. And they threw it, only they threw it at us. Because the positions, one was out in front of the other. They threw it over onto us. He pushed me into the foxhole and jumped in on top of me. It exploded and all kinds of rocks and everything came down on us and I thought oh my god, I made it this far and then die? Because of some cherry over here that doesn’t, you know, is scared of the dark? Interviewer: So, this is stuff when you were on perimeter duty? Like at the very end? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: This is just before getting sent home and I thought this is—there weren’t—how tragic is that? How tragic is that? When, you know, you make it all this way and then some Jerry blows you away with a grenade. And Gabe got out his knife and he went out there to kill him because that’s the way you were at that time. You were just nuts. You know? And, but they, the patrol, got down there first and got him away. And he came back and said “They took him away. I didn’t get a chance to kill him.” You know. But, in normal talk like that, that would be something normally you would do. You know, you’d just—normally, you’d just kill them. Interviewer: At what point was your hearing damaged? Veteran: On the firebase. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: Well, it started over up at the explosion that went off on 805. And this—out of this ear was facing it. That’s the worst ear. But after eleven hours of concussion everything, explosions and everything, I just noticed after that I couldn’t hear my watch tick and I didn’t hear a lot of things. And I thought well, it’s probably good that we’re getting close to the end because you know. You’d need, at night, you’d need to hear your hearing. Really bad, in case anybody is trying to sneak up on you. And I had excellent hearing, excellent sight, before that. So…I would have probably—I would have probably been just sitting there until the grenade went off, because I didn’t hear it. He heard it and he jumped. Pushed me in there and jumped on top of me and I’m forever grateful for that man. (00:52:43) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: He was a Zuni Indian. And we became friends, you know, before that. We took a perimeter guard together, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Was that sort of the last adventure you had in Vietnam? Veteran: Yeah. Then they sent us on a…one of those big, fat looking planes down to Huế and processed us and I didn’t sleep for days. I have pictures of me there: the circles under my eyes, you know? And everybody was trying to be nice on the flight, you know, and you know. And they took pictures with us and stuff, the ladies on the flight, the stewardesses. And you know, we were joking and carrying on and like when they get ready to take off, everybody raise your legs. You know, like it would help you get off the air and off the ground. And it was a—we flew to Guam and then from Guam we flew to Seattle. And then they, I thought it was very funny, it was like they wouldn’t let you go anywhere. They kept you bottled up and then they escorted us to the airport and took us in there with a, you know, like you’re going to process to get them processed through and put me on a plane. And they put me on first class. And they flew from �there to Denver and I didn’t even get a chance to notify anybody. You know? And then they put me on another plane and I finally fell asleep. And apparently, I was moaning and carrying on and everything and they kept waking me up and I would go “Why are you waking me?” You know. “Sir, you’re making a lot of noise.” And I didn’t know I was making a lot of noise. You know? And I got home and found that my mother had given away a lot of my stuff because she had the idea I wasn’t coming back. Sold my baby grand piano, gave away a lot of my clothes. I had a comic book collection and I was sorry to see that go. You know, from when I was just a small kid, I collected them. And they were all in—you know, I kept them in real nice shape and everything. I just…I thought that was just odd, that she had given up hope or something, that I would come back. (00:55:21) Interviewer: So, like after she had been out to see you in Hawaii, she got rid of all that? Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Maybe she— Veteran: Maybe it was a protective thing, you know, to—that she needed to protect herself because she had bouts of depression and everything and maybe she just needed that to think that—get it done and stop worrying or something. You know, I—I felt a lot of sadness from my mother. She made a lot of trouble for herself. Life was not good to her. It could have been better but she just gave in to it. And I found that I had the opposite: I won’t give in to anything. I can’t—I didn’t know I was—I didn’t know that about myself. I didn’t know that I was just that stubborn. That I wouldn’t give in at all. You know? And when I—they sent me, I got leave to after Christmas and then they sent me to Fort Hood. And they wanted to play war games and I said “This is stupid.” So, I went over to the captain and I said “Hey, I hear you’re having trouble organizing KP help? I can take it over and I can run it. And you won’t have a lick of problem.” �You know, and he said “Okay, go ahead.” So, I did. I called in certain people from the field that wanted to come in. I had a list of more people who wanted to come in. And I made up the schedule and I said “You only get one script and you go back to the field, somebody else is in here. 3 men on, 3 men off. You work 3 days on, 3 days off. And do what you want but you better be here when it’s time. And no griping, and you work your butt off and you clean and you scrub pans and everything.” The cooks were happy. They were just…this is wonderful. You know? And then they—I was sitting outside reading, because when we finished, we would finish up our work early and go out and take a break. And the captain—the sergeant came by and said—told me to get over there and pick up this trash and take care of that. And I said “No.” And he said “Oh yes.” And I said “Oh no.” And I got up and I walked into the thing and I knocked on the captain’s door and I said “Look, if this is going to work, we are not going to be doing other duties.” And he told the sergeant “Leave them alone.” He liked that I had it arranged, you know. Where does a spec 4 get the idea to just say no to somebody? You know? Get that stubbornness? (00:58:03) Interviewer: Well, people—my impression is, when people come back from Vietnam, at least sometimes did, there were things they weren’t going to put up with anymore. And— Veteran: Yeah, you had your chance to kill me: you didn’t kill me. I expected to die. You know, I had already figured that’s it, you’re going to die over there. That’s it. Or, you’re going to come back—well, when I took that shrapnel in my back, I couldn’t feel my legs for a few moments. And I hit it and knocked it and got it off my back where it was burning through three shirts that I was wearing. And burnt me on the back and made me for a moment paralyzed. And I thought oh god, please don’t let me be paralyzed. You know? And then, they wanted me to come in off the post and I wouldn’t do it. I was like “This is not hero stuff. Don’t come out here: don’t come out �here because then everybody will know where we are at.” And they did anyway and I thought well, I can’t argue because that’s just making more noise. So, I went in, you know. They wanted me to go back. They said “Well, you won’t get a purple heart unless you go back.” And I said “Who gives a shit?” You know? Let me—just put some salve on it. If it’s not better in the morning, I’ll go back. And that’s what he did: dressed it out there and, the medic did, and that— the next day, it didn’t look so bad. And I never went back in, they just kept checking it every day. You know? Wasn’t going to do it. (00:59:32) Interviewer: How would you characterize the morale of your unit while you were in Vietnam? Veteran: Well, I don’t know about…There was some newcomers that came in that seemed to me that they were living in a kind of fantasy world. “Oh, don’t worry: it’s going to be over any week now. They are talking peace talks. It’s going to be over. I don’t need to worry about anything.” And then you know, we had one in our platoon for a while. I traded him off to somebody else because he sat down and said “I can’t climb this hill any further.” And I went up—I broke my cardinal rule, because I went back down there after I unloaded my pack. And went back down there and got him up and took his pack and I pushed him up to the top of the hill and I told him off, all the way up there, you know? And he later went down the wrong trail and got blown up. I don’t know whether he died from it. I don’t know. He certainly didn’t last very long in Vietnam. But I could tell he was in a fantasy world. And you know, he didn’t take it seriously. And I traded him off: I said “Get him away from me because otherwise I’ll kill him.” You know, I was serious. You go a little nuts out there, you know? He was a danger to us. (01:00:52) Interviewer: Yeah. So, morale was sort of—people just didn’t engage reality. I mean, did you have— �Veteran: Not morale. The people that was in my platoon was pretty good. But then, we avoided everything that we could. And I didn’t want me to die and I didn’t want any of them to die. And I realized if you take control here, now they depend on you. And if they get hurt, it’s because of you. And that—I took that very seriously. I worked 24/7 for the whole time I was there to make sure that nothing happened. Interviewer: Okay, so we had been talking. I had asked a question sort of about morale, and you were talking about your own unit’s morale. Your platoon’s morale was pretty good— Veteran: My troop was—we were pretty happy together. I used to get care packages from home and my brother would slip in some whiskey and stuff and we’d be sitting around at night and I’d share that with them. We’d all have a toast that we were still alive. I just wanted to say that it sounds like I’m bragging here, all this stuff, but I don’t really understand how a kid can grow up being pretty much a sissy, can suddenly turn in to this other person that I didn’t recognize. I didn’t know this person. This person was stubborn, this person was all “make damn sure that we’re going to do this, we’re going to…” You know, I would just become this other serious 24/7…By golly, if we’d—if it’s up to me, we are all going to live. (01:02:33) Interviewer: Now, did you never have a lieutenant in your platoon? Veteran: No. Interviewer: So, you just end up—you had the whole—you had the sergeant, now did he go away eventually and get replaced by another sergeant? Or…? Veteran: Replaced by another sergeant. Who I threatened to kill because he said “We are not going up and down any more mountains. We are going down this path.” And I turned around, took my gun out of safety and I said “Well first of all, you’re going to shut the fuck up or I am �going to kill you right now.” And I didn’t say it loud. I just said it in this voice, and I meant it. And something on my face—I know that face. That face is my father’s face that will make your bowels liquid. And I used it later when I became a teacher. Scared the principal. He came in one day to view my class and somebody decided to act up and I gave them the face. And when I gave the face, the kid scrunched down in his chair and the principal got up and left and I thought that’s funny. Why would he leave? He was only here five minutes, how can he do my class? And I went down there and the other principal said “Oh, he turned it over to me because you scared him.” I am like, “What?” And I—my son told me “I know that face! I have seen that face on you. You scare people with that face.” And it was my father’s face. I knew that face but I couldn’t ever duplicate it in the mirror or anything. I was not being brave. I didn’t see myself as a hero. I am not a hero. I am a practical thinking person that wants to stay alive, and I will do whatever is necessary, to stay alive. You know? So, it sounds like I am bragging but I just—still to this day, want to understand where that person came from. Where did that person come from, that all of this stuff happened to you, the right and left of you, and only the—the only scratch you got was a burn on the back from shrapnel? You know, people were dying right and left. And there’s times out there, I thought I had gone crazy. And 30-some years later, when they threatened to get rid of our cost of our insurance rate up real high, everybody talked me into going to the VA and seeing if I couldn’t get their, you know. And so, they questioned me about my hearing and then they started really questioning me about firebase Ripcord and what happened to your hearing and everything else out there on that firebase. And I had a flashback and a meltdown. How can you have a meltdown 30-some years later? Almost like it was yesterday. And I couldn’t make it stop. It came in waves and I couldn’t make it stop. And they kept saying, “Oh, you have posttraumatic stress.” And I am like, “No, I don’t have anything. I am okay, I just can’t make this �stop.” And they kept passing me from person to person. They kept saying that. They finally sent me to a psychiatrist. And she said—I said “I looked at the DSM. I am not alcoholic, I am not a drug user, I am not—I don’t have fits of violence, I don’t do…” You know? And she got it out and said “This is what you looked at?” And I said “Yes.” And she said “Turn the page.” I turned the page and I fit all of the sub-category. I thought oh shit: I’ve got post-traumatic stress. And I am still having meltdowns from it. How do I stop this? You know. And she said “You need to talk about it. You need to talk about it to anybody that will stand still and hear the story.” And I can do that now a lot better because at first, it would make me cry. I would cry all the time while I tried to talk about it. I’d get real emotional over it, you know. And I thought this—I don’t know whether this is any good. I asked her “Does this go away?” And she “Well, it’s kind of ingrained in your mind after all of this time. I don’t think that we can get rid of it but we can teach you coping mechanisms.” And so, I learned coping mechanisms to cope with it, you know? Coming here, I didn’t know whether I could do it. I said “I am going.” I said “It’s probably going to scare the shit out of me.” I was sick for the first couple hours of the drive up from San Diego. Then, when I got to about halfway, I started feeling better and got here and… (01:06:59) Interviewer: Is this the first meeting you have come to? Veteran: I went to the one in Fort Worth when I was living in Texas. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But to travel anywhere, I always—or to go outside of my comfort zone. But I did get stuck once in my apartment with agoraphobia. And I knew that I had to keep pushing the envelope. So, what I used to go by is that—is something I read someplace that said “What would you do if you weren’t afraid?” And then I would go out and do it. You know? But it helped. It kept me from getting—coming unglued. You know, I kept going places by myself and pushing �the envelope as far as I could push it. I didn’t know whether I would make it here. I thought this is going to be very embarrassing if I get about halfway and turn back. You know? And I was sick. I thought I am sick; I don’t think I can go. And I was like, you know, grow up. You drove here, you know. Just go. And I did and I thought, you know, I am just going to do it. I am going to do it. I am afraid. I am afraid. I am frightened. I am going to do it. And when I got here, I was just fine. Interviewer: Yeah. (01:08:14) Veteran: I was worn out, tired. Slept good that night. You know? Interviewer: Well, it’s a good group. Veteran: Huh? Interviewer: It’s a good group here. Veteran: It is a good group. These are men that I served with. Although, I tried to block out most of it so I don’t remember the names and faces like I should. You know, it’s like I—when I came back, I decided that I was going to just pack it up and put it in a corner in my brain in a closet and pretend it didn’t happen. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And that’s what I did. I had nightmares and I would wake up in the middle of the night in a panic and want to run. And no place to run. I would get up and read until morning, you know. And everybody thought that was odd. I was very dependent on the word fuck. I loved the word fuck. I used it all the time. Scandalized my family. You know? They didn’t know who I was but they—and I think I scared them a bit. You know, because they sent away this little wimpy kid and he come back and…It didn’t seem to me—I didn’t seem to be very aggressive. You know? How did that happen? When did that happen? And in a way, I am not used to saying �“Thank you for your service” and pat me on the back and say “You were a hero.” No. No, don’t say that. You want to see heroes? Look at those chopper pilots that came in there and knew they would come in there under fire to come and get us. That’s a hero. You know? I did what I did to survive. I did what I did to make sure nobody around me got killed because of me, doing something stupid. So, that’s not hero material. That’s just practicality. That’s just someone doing what they have to do to survive. (01:10:10) Interviewer: Which is, ultimately, what winds up leading you to do things that people label heroic in a lot of cases. You weren’t doing it for that reason, you were just doing it. Veteran: You are scared to death and you still do it. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, you mentioned that when you got back, and you got out of the Army, you were a different person. So, what did you then do? You got out of the Army. Was that when you went to school then? Or…? Veteran: Well, I went back to school. I got my degree. I got a regular degree because everybody at that time was saying if you got a teacher’s degree, it wasn’t really a degree. So, I thought well, because I have such stubbornness and pride in myself, that I am getting a regular degree and fill it in with my electives with teaching credits and everything. And then I had to leave that because both my wife and I got sick and we had the baby and so, I had to go work for my brother, doing aluminum siding. And then I got a job on the railroad. And I worked on the railroad for 5 or 6 years and then Reaganomics killed that. And I come back to Texas and fought through depression and you know, I got myself together and went to see a counselor who counseled me that I should go back to my original plan, which was to become a teacher. So, I got the last 12 credits and got me a job over in Fort Hood. Now, that may seem crazy, to go to an Army camp when I didn’t want to have anything to do with the Army. But they were paying the most amount �of money. Nobody wanted to teach over there. And it was great. I loved it. But I did avoid going out on, if I could, I’ll avoid it, if they had some sort of thing going on out at Fort Hood. I’d ask somebody else to take my place and go. You know, and so I didn’t go. But I got the best job I could and suffered a divorce right there at the beginning. And stayed because I wanted to make sure my son—this was my kid, I raised him. I diapered him, I bathed him, I fed him. And I did everything for him because my ex-wife was a little depressed at that time and she didn’t really want a child, you know. And so, I kind of—he was my baby. I put him in a snuggly. You had to buy a snuggly through a Woolworth catalog at that time. Covered the baby completely. You couldn’t see it unless you were taller than me, to see there’s a baby in there. You know, I had—I stooped over to get something at a store and some lady saw I had a baby in there and screamed at me and run off to tell—call the police because I was abusing that baby. And I am like “No, it’s like being back in the womb: he loves it.” You know? He’s all nice and warm in there and he can hear my heart beating and I run a higher temperature. And so, he was like—it’s like just a blanket. So, I stayed to raise him, make sure he didn’t become a dirtbag. Make sure he went to college. Became a teacher and started out teaching math but I was a little too good at that because all of my students passed the exit exam and that was not so good because there was only—everybody else only had 60 percent. And I guess they were afraid that this would cause a stampede for parents wanting their kids in my class or something, I don’t know. They asked me to move over to social studies and gave me 4 preps for, you know, 4 different classes to teach for my efforts. And I went down there and said “Do you have—you don’t have a psychology class, could I teach a class that’s psychology?” And they said “That’s 5 preps! Are you nuts?” And I said “Yes. Give me it.” And so, they gave it to me. Within a couple years, that’s all I was teaching: psychology, sociology. And then finally, just psychology. You know? And it was �not—here’s something funny: I decided that my class would be a give and take. We are not going to discuss—you’re not going to learn dates and all that. You can talk to me about Freud. What do you think about dreams? You think they mean anything? You got to have an opinion in here or get up. You’re going to have an opinion. And sometimes it felt like I was on the edge of chaos, conducting this and any minute now, it was going to be going to a riot. And the best compliment I ever got is a teacher came down and knocked on my door after lunch and said “What the hell goes on in here?” And I had been teaching—this was back when they were not teaching sex education and I was teaching sex education in the one chapter because we had already had two students turn up with HIV. And I decided nobody needs to die for lack of information. So, I was teaching a very outward everything about sex. No matter how red my face was, I was going to teach that. And I figured that she heard certain something and I probably, this is when I got fired for this. And I said “What do you mean? What’s—what happened?” And she said “I was just down in the lunch hall and a group of your students are arguing over Freud down there.” And I thought, well, is this a bad thing? “Well, they never argued in my class over anything down there.” I am like “Well, I just wake them up and send them out there into the world.” You know? I would do things to provoke them, to get them into arguments over things. To make them see that psychology is in your life every day. So, I enjoyed it. It was a little radical but here’s the thing, I read this book when I was about 18 or 19, called To Serve Them All Our Days by Rodney…Doctorfield? Interviewer: Delderfield. Veteran: Delderfield? Interviewer: Yeah. �Veteran: I stole all his ideas. And it wasn’t until sometime later I read the book again and I thought oh my god, I thought I had all these ideas myself. And I just stole them from this guy that come back from war and became a teacher. And I thought well, that serves me right. You know? Thinking that I was really something. You know, to do all this. But it was great fun. I enjoyed it. So, it was—that’ s part of what I did. I went back to school and go that degree and got a job teaching and I stayed with it for over 20 years. And then I just—we got a whole new bunch of officers in. The superintendent and the assistant superintendent and they—at that time I was counseling students and they felt that we weren’t doing enough. And they loaded us down with a lot of secretarial jobs. And I said “Have you read the state manual? It says I am supposed to counsel 55% of the time. Do you know I have 7 students who are of suicidal ideation. I had to get their parents in here and get them off to the funny farm so that they wouldn’t kill themselves. I got 4 more I check on every day, at different times during the day, to see when they cross over. I’ve got all the teachers alerted to send me anybody that is acting funny. That they might—you know, were depressed and now they’re suddenly happy. Because that means they have figured out a way to kill themselves.” And I thought, you know, I’m—nobody is perfect and I just—I don’t think I can bear it if one of my students kill themselves and I didn’t catch it. So, I just said “You know what, if that’s the way you’re going to be, I am just going to retire. I can sit at home for more than half my salary. And I don’t have to worry so.” You know? It’s a lot of worry. You don’t know how vulnerable these kids are. You don’t know. Until you counsel them and find out so many of them are fragile. Especially with your parents over in Iraq or in some distant land where they could die at any time. And they don’t know what will happen to them. So…Oh well, that’s, you know, that was—I loved the career and I would have stayed but I just couldn’t deal with not taking the time to talk to every student 3 or 4 times during the year. I had 350 students. I �had to contact them all at least 3 times during the year to make sure. Not only for college and scholarships and socioeconomic things and see how they were doing, socializing them. And you know, there’s other stuff too. (01:19:14) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So…My dad told me when I was about 21 that I was a two-spirit person. I didn’t understand it. He said “Don’t be afraid of it and don’t be ashamed of it. You’re a two-spirit person. You always nurture, wherever you go.” I thought that’s an odd thing for my father to say and I don’t know what it means and I didn’t want to—I didn’t want to ask because it was one of those Indian things, you know, that he was fond of saying at—from time to time, you know, that was just kind of creepy. You know. So, maybe I am a two-spirit person; I don’t know. I’ve mentored all my life, in every job that I ever had, I was a teacher. So, it just came natural to me. They always send them to me to teach. (01:20:05) Interviewer: Now, how much of that, do you think, goes back to what sort of happened to you in the Army? Veteran: Well, the Army changed my life radically. I think it—I really do, I think it changed my life radically. I would have never been the person I am today. You know? People say “Oh, I wish that didn’t happen to me.” Well, yeah on the one hand, it was terrible. I lived through it. And I changed. I no longer was willing to be stepped on and stomped on and pushed to the side. Now, I fought back. You know? Let’s go do city. You know, you want to criticize me? Alright. I had an assistant principal who hated my guts. She was always trying to get me fired. I kept good records. When they’d take me down to the office to see the principal about some complaint or other, and I’d get out my…And I didn’t say she was a liar, I didn’t say—you know. I said “Well, I am sorry that you have been misinformed. Here’s what really happened.” After a while, the �principal got tired of that. I guess he said “No more.” You know? “Stop this, whatever it is you’re—I don’t know why you don’t like him. But leave him alone.” And so that was the end of that, you know. It was just…I tried to teach everybody around me that when parents come in distraught, do not escalate. De-escalate. And same in the classroom. You’re a teacher; you can make it worse or you can make it better. Don’t give them an ultimatum. Say “Here’s the choices. You choose. What do you want to do?” You know? Calm down. Get back in the swing of things. You want to go down to the office? You want time out? You know. What do you want to do? But I won’t put up with anything. You know, go around any corner, I got two degrees in psychology, I’ll be waiting there for you. You know? I will outsmart you in every way. Don’t try me. I’m a Vietnam vet, you know. I’m mean. We can have it sweet as pie or we can have it mean. Your choice. You know? And I never had trouble in my classes like anyone else had. I don’t, you know, I just—I thought, give them a choice. Let them choose for themselves. They want to go down to the office? That’s fine. I’m not angry over it. Sometimes you need a time out. You know, sometimes life just overloads you. And you bring that to my classroom and maybe you need a time out. Tell me if you don’t want to be called on today. You need some time to just contemplate. Okay, I won’t call on you. Now, let’s not make it a habit but if you have an overwhelming day…just…And if you want to talk, I am here. I am always here. And my classroom is like Vegas: what happens here, stays here. And anybody who spreads any rumors, you’re out of here. You go around and share what you hear here, you know. And you have to be sensitive to where you’re going because sometimes you have to stop them and say, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. I think I know where you’re going. Think a minute. Is that something you want to share? If it’s not, we need to stop here.” And you know why? I’ll tell you a real happening. The guy across the hall taught biology. And he was having a really good time that �day and he was telling them about—he was talking about reproduction. He was telling them all the chemicals in sperm. And one girl raised her hand and she said “Mr. K—” Well, I shouldn’t say his name. Said “That’s all sugars, isn’t it?” And he’s just like, “Yeah, you get it! It’s all it really is. It’s all sugars.” And then he didn’t see where it was going and she raised her—she said “How come it tastes so salty?” He went outside, closed the door and fell down laughing. He didn’t know what to do. I said, “You’ve got to think down the road where this might lead. And I’m sure that girl didn’t want to share that and I’m sure that it was all over school that she shared that. You’ve got to stop them before they incriminate themselves. You know? Think a minute. Is that something you want to share? Because I think I know where you are going.” And they would say, “Uhhh…No.” “Then good. Move on. Let’s go on.” You know? (01:24:57) Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that one would have blindsided me but… Veteran: Well, it blindsided him. I felt sorry for him. I thought I don’t know whether you could have prevented that one. I really don’t. But I just know that you’ve got to watch out when you’re working with these kids. They say things. And a lot of them go home and kill themselves because they think they can’t face life now, because they shared too much. They overshared. You know? I closed down program after program as were—our altered programs. They come in every year with training for a week. New stuff that was going to save education. And I would sit there and I see globally. Not specifically, but globally. And I would see the flaw and I would ask—I would try to ask a question, as innocently as possible so that it didn’t look like I was causing trouble. And it would pull the tapestry apart. And they would fall apart, you know. And so, they would have to modify it and change whatever they wanted us to do that year. Well, one year they wanted us to a—have all the kids journal. Oh, it’ll be great. They’ll journal. And I said, “Oh, I think you should think about this.” By that time, all the principals from the different �schools and the superintendent and assistant superintendent was always in the back of our training session. You know, and every time I thought well, that’s going to get you fired. It didn’t. and I said, “This journaling, it could get out of hand because they may overshare and then they will go home and kill themselves.” “Oh, no. I don’t know why you think things like that.” So, we went in small groups and they tagged along to my small group and sat in the back. And the teacher—I told a joke to the other teacher when we were supposed to share something. And she came over there and said, “Well, how about sharing that with the group?” And I said, “I don’t want to.” And she picked up the paper and said “Well, what is it that’s funny?” You know. And I took it back and put it down. And she said, “Well, I mean you know, you could share this with everybody.” And I took it back. And that—and I said, “See, this is exactly what I’m talking about: you have authority and you’re using your authority to get me to share what I don’t want to share. And then one of these kids are going to share something and they’re going to go home and kill themselves because they overshared. All because of this, because you’re not trained to have them journal.” And they all got up and left. And I thought, well now you’ve done it. You’re fired for sure this time because they are going to just throw you out of here. Any minute now. Besides all that, because I am teaching sex ed too. And all that ten years or twelve years that I did it, nobody said anything and I don’t know why. Next day, we were told to go to our rooms and just work in our rooms because they cancelled that. We are not going to do journaling. (01:27:45) Interviewer: Alright. Well, the story has taken us in a lot of pretty interesting directions, so, I think we’ve gotten a pretty good idea. But, you know, it all connects which is— Veteran: Well, I am surprised I got through this without crying. That usually happens somewhere along the line. Or being overwhelmed. I’ve been trying to follow the psychiatrist that told me to get ahold of anyone that wants to hear and tell them all about it. And sometimes it does cause �tears and, you know, sometimes it shakes me up a little bit. It was an experience. I am not saying it was a great experience but it was an experience that changed my life. It made me a different person. I don’t know whether that is good or bad. You know, I certainly became adamant and stubborn. When my son wanted to quit college, I said “Oh, no. Over my dead body. You’re moving back in with me and you’ve got a place to live and a place to shower and a place to do your clothes and food that’s in the refrigerator and that’s all I can do for you but you’re going back to college. You’re going to finish.” And he did. And I said—and then he said one time, and he said to me “I am not sure college is great. I don’t know whether I can afford for my two boys.” And I said “Oh, no. I want a promise right now that they’re going to college. I didn’t raise us up out of the gutter for you—from trailer park trash to become this and then let them slip back down.” Usually, the third generation it happens to. And I said—and he said “Well, I don’t see it makes any difference.” I said “How much were you making before you went to college?” “Making $32,000.” “What are you making now? $110? $120? It’s not worth it? You make three times what I was making as a teacher. You know, when I started out. And it wasn’t worth it? Damn right, it’s worth it. And I don’t care what anybody says: education is the key to becoming something better in this life.” And I went after it: I came back from Vietnam and I went to college and I had my family pulling and her family pulling and everybody pulling the other direction. And why are you doing this? And you’re not smart enough to do this, you barely made it out of grade school and you graduated from high school with a D- average. You know? Well, there was a reason for that. I didn’t know that at the time but there was a reason for that, you know. But I wasn’t going to give up. I wanted to know everything. I thought if I went to college, I would know everything. Turns out, I don’t even hardly know anything but I know how to look it up. I know how to find out that information. I know how to research it. You know? That’s �what education does for you. And I know how to find out information so you can form your own opinion. And you don’t sit around being ignorant. You know? I had only a size ten and a half shoe when I tried to stamp out as much ignorance as I could. (01:30:56) Interviewer: Alright. Now, in the meantime, you’ve filled— Veteran: Huh? Interviewer: And in the meantime, you’ve filled in another piece of both the story of firebase Ripcord and told a very good story about what it was like to go through the U.S. military and what it meant. So, I’d like to just close this out by thanking you for taking the time to share the story today. Veteran: I still don’t know—I still don’t understand all that happened to me there. I still don’t understand all of it: what changed and when it changed and how it changed. Or, how I came to this point. But like Cher, I think that all the things that happen to you make you who you are, and if you like who you are at this point, and I do, then everything was the right thing to happen. So, I’ll leave you with that. (01:31:44) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WhiteisR2157V Title A name given to the resource Whiteis, Rauland (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-03 Description An account of the resource Rauland Whiteis was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1946 and graduated high school in 1966. Whiteis was drafted into the Army in 1969 and attended Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, as well as Advanced Individual Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. He was then deployed to Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division as an infantryman. He participated in the combat at Firebase Ripcord and was only injured once in the back while in Vietnam. After being discharged from the Army in 1971, Rauland attended Southwest Texas State University, where he completed two degrees in psychology. He then accepted a position teaching at Fort Hood, where he taught high school classes for over 20 years before retiring. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whiteis, Rauland Lee Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d5222e45223e35c147929a03267f9bf.m4v 222431e745f76210921cd26caed804f7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81a83ee00794f5d1bed0d2f8e0fcf038.pdf fb80f276649f2a9dc275d691e0b63ed4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Charles Whorton Length of interview: (58:33) (00:00) Early Life      Charles was born on January 2, 1947 in Mobile, Alabama When Charles was a child, his family moved to Benton Harbor, Michigan, where he grew up His father worked at Whirlpool as an electrician and his mother worked as an auto specialist Charles graduated high school in 1964 o After he graduated, he worked at several factory jobs before going to work at Whirlpool He got his draft notice in early 1966 o At the same time that he got his draft notice, he found out that his cousin had been killed in Vietnam (2:30) Military Life      Charles went to Fort Hood, Texas for basic training o The barracks were old, World War Two era buildings o When they arrived, the drill instructors immediately started screaming at them Training consisted of physical training, weapons instruction, and survival training o They also made them go through a gas chamber to see how fast they could put on a gas mask o It was easy to adjust to the discipline o About a quarter of the men were black, another quarter were Hispanic, while the rest of the men were Caucasian. All of the men got along because they were afraid After the training and a short leave, Charles went to Fort Benning, Georgia for radio training (Advanced Individual Training) o In this training course, Charles learned how to operate a small backpack radio. He also learned Morse Code o The radio training took a total of eight weeks. Charles found that he was treated better here than in basic training After AIT, Charles was sent to Fort Riley, Kansas for some Jungle training o He was there for a short time before he was given a 30 day leave and his order to go to Vietnam (11:00) Charles got on a plane to California where he boarded a ship headed to Vietnam �        o The bunks were stacked close together and there was no room to roll once you laid down o Charles spent his days on the ship cleaning vomit. The ship stopped once because one man had hanged himself o Charles was going to Vietnam with the 9th Division They landed in Cam Ranh Bay around December 13, 1966, near a party beach for officers Charles was designated as a radioman for air warning clearance control o Although he knew how to operate the radio, he still had to learn to do this particular job The 9th Division was stationed at Bearcat Base near Bien Hoa o The barracks that Charles was in was very secure After a few weeks, Charles was infused with the 11th Cavalry o This was done because the army didn’t want the entire division coming back at the same time o The 11th Cavalry was a search and destroy division. They had access to personnel carriers and tanks. Charles was put in K Troop o When he was reassigned, he was flown out into the field where K Troop was K Troop was sent on search and destroy missions as well as recon patrols (in the first few months this was largely done between Saigon and the Cambodian border) o During the night, they went on ambush patrols and set up listening posts o They operated in dense jungles. Instead of walking on existing trails, K Troop cut their own o He joined the 11th before Christmas 1966 and didn’t have major contact with the enemy until May 1967 They were often ambushed by the VC while escorting combat engineers along Highway 1 o Every Tuesday, they stopped at a village along highway 1 to assist villagers. On one occasion, a platoon stopped at a village and was nearly wiped out (21:20) Every night, several men from each personnel carrier were sent out for listening posts and ambush patrols o They never went out with a man from the same carrier. The patrols and guards would stay out all night o When they moved through the jungle, the tanks went first and knocked down the large obstacles for the personnel carriers that followed When they approached a village, they would use translators to communicate with the villagers o Charles and his comrades gathered the villagers and searched the huts for weapons. If any war materials were discovered, they were destroyed along with the huts. o None of the villagers argued with them because they were outgunned. This is why most engagements were ambushes �          They were in a base camp only when they needed to repair their vehicles. Other than that, they formed a circle with the vehicles when they stopped They never operated near the rubber plantations because the rubber trees were too valuable o If they were in an area such as this, it was only to cross from one jungle area to another (25:30) In May 1967, things start to escalate o An engineering unit and one of K Troop’s platoons had fallen under attack and Charles was part of the relief force It seemed that they were getting enemy contact every week o Whenever they got ambushed they were always on a main road headed for the jungle. The enemy always seemed to know where Charles’ unit was going o They would hit K Troop with RPGs and automatic weapons. Some of the soldiers in K Troop looked one way, some looked the other; this allowed them to cover both sides o If the VC hit a vehicle, there would be two explosions because each vehicle carried a large amount of ammunition and explosives. Each destroyed vehicle usually meant that around six men were dead o Charles used a mounted 50 caliber machine gun to fire back with. K Troop was often on their own in the situations. Air support was useful in long ambushes but not in short ones because it took a while for the aircraft to reach their position. The average ambush lasted about 2.5 hours (31:20) K Troop suffered around 50 percent casualties while Charles was in Vietnam K Troop operated independently and didn’t know what the other troops were doing for most of the time Charles and his comrades thought that marching on foot was better than riding in the vehicles o During the time that they were frequently ambushed, no one was killed by rifle fire. Explosions frightened the men more than small arms fire K Troop was eventually sent to a place called Slope 30 o They set up on top of the slope during the day and sent out patrols and listening posts o One night at around midnight, the VC attacked K Troop while Charles was outside of the perimeter with an ambush patrol. All Charles could do was lay low because he was caught between friendly and enemy fire o While the enemy force was retreating, some of them discovered Charles’ position. They engaged each other with rifles and grenades. When the fight was over, Charles and some of his comrades had minor shrapnel wounds Charles went out of the country for R&R twice, once to Bangkok and once to Okinawa o When he went on R&R, he was able to put the fear of combat behind them o They were occasionally allowed to relax in Vietnam during the periods of inactivity All supplies were brought in by chopper �      o Three or four times a week, hot meals were flown in. They ate rations for the rest of the meals o They had access to all the beer they wanted but no one got drunk because it would be miserable in the heat o K Troop came across prostitutes when they moved into populated areas Morale was difficult to maintain because they were often ambushed o Additionally, they had to pick up all of the dead bodies after an engagement (43:00) Charles was awarded the Bronze Star o Charles’ vehicle was not working properly and one of the other vehicles had to drop back so that they wouldn’t be alone. As the two vehicles were following the convoy, the reinforcing vehicle was destroyed with an RPG. o Instead of driving away, Charles turned his vehicle around and returned fire Perhaps ten percent of K Troop was black o None of the men smoked marijuana in the field. Charles tried it once but realized that it was a stupid thing to do when the enemy could attack at any time All of the officers were good except one lieutenant that came in several months before Charles rotated home o They were ordered to go out on a patrol and the lieutenant wanted to march along a dry creek bed. Charles and his comrades refused to do this because they would be sitting ducks if the enemy attacked them. Their captain agreed with Charles and they proceeded to walk the way Charles preferred As his time in Vietnam grew short, Charles was very cautious because a lot of people seemed to get killed just before their tours were up (49:35) When it was time for Charles to leave Vietnam, he was flown out of the field and taken to a processing center o He flew out of Saigon and landed in Oakland Army Base, California, it was December (49:30) Post- Army Life      When he landed in California, it was midnight but there were a few protestors Charles got on a plane to Chicago and from there he went home o He didn’t talk to his family much while he was in Vietnam Within a week of getting home, he went back to work o For about a year, he drank every day after work and got into fights (2 to 3 fights per week) o This largely came to an end when he met his wife Charles went to junior college but he didn’t know about all the things he was entitled to as a veteran o A lot of the benefits were made known to him as men returned from Iraq and Afghanistan He thinks that his time in the military made him a better person o However, he is more alert of his surroundings and his patience is not what it used to be � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WhortonC1898V Title A name given to the resource Whorton, Charles E (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-17 Description An account of the resource Charles Whorton was born on January 2, 1947 in Mobile, Alabama. His family moved to Benton Harbor, Michigan when he was young. In 1966, Charles was drafted into the United States Army and trained as a radio operator. When he arrived in Vietnam in December 1966, Charles was placed in K Troop, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. K Troop traveled through the jungle with tanks and armored transport vehicles. Since they were a search and destroy unit, they frequently came into contact with the enemy. When Charles returned from Vietnam, it was difficult for him to adjust to civilian life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whorton, Charles E. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/449c9cb62ea1d65ab952ae6203820037.pdf aa1e6caf9fb4989866090f10ded2bdf3 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. John Widdicombe Interviewed on January 5, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #45 (40:42) Biographical Information John S. Widdicombe was born about 1907 in Grand Rapids. His death occurred in Keene, New Hampshire in late May 1989. A memorial service was held in Grand Rapids on 1 June 1989. John was the son of Harry Theodore Widdicombe and Gertrude Emily Sherwood. Harry was born 3 August 1876 in Grand Rapids and died 29 March 1957 at Blodgett Hospital. He was the son of John Widdicombe and Mary Frances Stocking. Harry married Gertrude Emily Sherwood on 14 March 1906 in Grand Rapids. Gertrude was born about 1882 and was the daughter of Alfred Harry Sherwood and Emily A. Jeffries (or Jeffrey). Gertrude passed away 20 May 1975 in Grand Rapids. Both Gertrude and John S. Widdicombe are buried at Oak Hill Cemetery. ____________ Interviewer: This is a recording of an interview with Mr. John Widdicombe, who is visiting his native city from New York where he presently lives part of the year. This is recorded at my home, the Hutchins residence at one-eleven Lafayette north-east, in the afternoon of Sunday, January the fifth, nineteen seventy-five. Now I’m going to ask Mr. Widdicombe to talk about his family, which has played an important part in the history of this city, for I believe well over a hundred years. John: Well my great-grandfather George with three sons, his brother, and his brother’s wife and they came, it was about eighteen forty-four, and they settled first in Syracuse, New York. And just why one brother came to Grand Rapids and the other stayed in Syracuse, I don’t know. After they had settled in Syracuse my grandfather, the youngest of the four sons was born there. The other three were born in England. William, the eldest, Harry, George (I’m not sure if that’s the right order of Harry and George) and John. All four boys served in the Civil War, and George died shortly after, of some, not a wound, but some disablement that he suffered during the war. My great-grandfather, the original George was a cabinet-maker from Exeter in England. Almost as soon as they got here they began to work in furniture and there were many permutations, George Widdicombe, and Son, and Widdicombe Brothers, and Widdicombe and Richard, the Grand Rapids Mantel Company, this is over the course of many years. And finally they started the Widdicombe Furniture Company that died recently. The elder brother, William was �2 apparently rather bossy and my grandfather the youngest got tired of the relationship; sold his stock in the Widdicombe Furniture Company and started the John Widdicombe Company. Interviewer: About what year was that? John: I’m not sure, I can find out. I supposed it must have been in the eighties somewhere in the eighties. And of course in nineteen twelve, I think it was eleven or twelve he dropped dead over his desk, and at that time was starting work, starting to build what would have been if he finished it, the largest furniture company in the world. But of course when he died all the plans went by the board. William Widdicombe married Esther Hewitt, and Harry Widdicombe married a sister who was known as Auntie Rye, what her real name was I don’t know. And William had six children, only one of whom had any offspring, Abbott, who married Leona Wurzburg. And they had four children, two girls and two boys. He died of pneumonia, when Abbott his son, the youngest son was unborn. Harry Widdicombe, not my father, but his uncle after whom he was named, married Auntie Rye Hewitt and his son was Ralph the furniture designer. My grandfather married Mary Stocking and her father was Billius Stocking, who was one of the real pioneers. He came here I think in eighteen thirty-four or five and took a quarter, took up a homestead I think you call it on the West side, a quarter section. And built his, originally I think it was a log cabin. And later of course the New England clapboard house that was still there when I was a boy. Stocking had at least three children, Theodore who died in his twenties, and was quite an artist, or somewhat of an artist, and another daughter Alida who was a spinster, and who died at an advanced age I can’t remember how old she was, never having married. And she of course, lived on the West side and she must have had two acres. She had her own house, she had a tenant farmer house, and she had a corn field and potato patch and a cow and so on, and in the twenties the early twenties the city wanted this ideal property for a whole school complex and they got it by condemning the property, it was several years of fight to keep it but in the end they lost. Interviewer: Do you know anything about Billius Stocking apart from your relationship to him or what did he do? John: He was extremely pious that I do know. Terribly pious, he was, my grandfather had four children, one who died as they did in those day died young, I don’t know what name it had, Mary, Alida, and Harry my father, Harry Theodore. Named for his uncle, the Theodore Stocking that died young. . And Mary Widdicombe went to Paris in the nineties where she ran a pensione (hotel) along with Mrs. Thayer, who she’d known as her teacher of French in school somewhere, she went where a lots of Grand Rapids people went, where Mrs. Douglas went. �3 Interviewer: When she went over to Paris in the nineties how old would she have been? John: In her early twenties. Interviewer: In her early twenties? What about eighteen seventy perhaps? John: Something, not before that, it must have been before that because she was at least mother’s age. Interviewer: When was your father born, what year? John: Eighteen seventy-five I think. Interviewer: He was the youngest? John: He was the youngest. Interviewer: She was born perhaps… John: Eighteen eighty. So it must have been before that, it must have before it must have been in the eighties or nineties maybe she was a bit older than I said. Anyhow they went to Paris to perfect their French, and had the idea of starting a pensione for Americans, immediately, Americans from Grand Rapids well they were their first guest. And eventually lots of other people, and she married a Mr. Lee, Mr. James Lee and they were divorced and she went to London and bought the Dysart Hotel which covers a whole block, if it’s still there. And in a course of her years in London one of the people who lived in there was Geraldine Farrar, when she was in London she always stayed at the Dysart. And in those days she married John Joass, and I found something interesting, I’ve seen the name Joass once, another time in Scotland and I know that J-O-A-S is a Norwegian name. Interviewer: So there’s a possibility that… John: They came across, they were originally Norwegians. He didn’t like his wife running a hotel so she had to give up the Dysart and she lived in England until they separated, not divorced, and she came back here to live and died in nineteen forty-two. Alida married someone called Crane, I’ve forgotten his first name, and that was a very short lived marriage, and subsequently married Douglas Ray. And my father married Gertrude Sherwood, whose father has invented that process of translating fine grain mahogany on pine. And his company was the Grand Rapids Panel Company. My parents had two children, myself the eldest, and my sister �4 Emily, who married David Schmidt. I found an interesting thing; do you remember the Jacksons, here who was Jackson at St. Marks? Interviewer: St. Marks. I never knew them but yes I remember them. John: There was Nancy Jackson, that was a member of that family, I think Nancy’s younger sister who is wife of the rector of Grace Church in New York and she’d been looking through the files and said I found a Widdicombe who is married in Grace Church, and I discovered that was when she married Crane, it was Alida. Interviewer: Why don’t we go back to your grandfather, John Widdicombe, and tell me a little bit about what you were saying about the house, which stood in, on the site of the present John Widdicombe Furniture Company. John: No, not on the site but in the El and open space that is still open. Interviewer: What time do you suppose that house was built? John: I don’t know. It must have been there, I think it was certainly there in the eighties, and I suppose perhaps he lived there, because of course, the Widdicombe Furniture Company was across the tracks. And he chose that spot to build his own factory. So that when the guess that he was perhaps already living there. Then as he prospered he came across the river as everybody did finally, who lived on the West side, and bought what had been the Wood house, which is the second house from College on the north side of Fulton Street, going west. I think that would have been after eighteen ninety-three, and this was the time when father and his sisters, my aunt were growing up, I mean getting to their teens and so on. Because they entertained a good deal of their friends; I’ve heard people speak of remembering them at that house. Then he suffered in financial reverse in the panic of nineteen seven, and one of the things he did was sell the house to Mr. Hodenpyl, and they moved back to the little house beside the factory. And when grandfather was prosperous again, Mr. Hodenpyl very nicely, offered to sell it back to him for exactly what he paid for it, but my grandfather apparently said I don’t need it anymore because my children are all gone, they’re all married and there was no need to have a big house, it was just he and his wife, my grandmother. So they continued for the next few years because in nineteen-twelve he dropped dead. And then grandmother moved on, over on this side, I think she, well that house going up College north on College, the first house on the left. Interviewer: Yes, beyond the Sherman house, what we call the Sherman house. �5 John: Well it’s not beyond the Sherman house, because the Sherman house is on Fulton street, and it’s an empty lot, then it’s the first house that way. Interviewer: It’s the Victorian house. John: Yes, it was turned into half, split up into two house, two halves, and grandmother lived in first there. Interviewer: Didn’t Mrs. Ray live there, your aunt? John: No, she lived in the middle of the block, the house that her father built for her, bought the lot and built it for her in the middle of the block, that again a New England clapboard, a little house I don’t know how to describe it, it’s fifty-three North College. All that pops into my mind from these many many years ago; it’s been a long time since I’ve addressed a letter to fifty-three North College, but that’s where it was. And she lived there with Douglas Ray, it was a wedding present. And eventually grandmother went to live with Alida, in that house and live there until she died. It must have been in the late twenties or early thirties. My mother’s family lived on the West side, on Turner Street. Again when they prospered they moved over to this side and grandfather [Alfred H. Sherwood] bought the house on the big white rather handsome house, where Eberhard’s grocery is on the corner of State Street and Madison, across from the Stuyvesant. Interviewer: I think it’s no longer Eberhard’s. John: Well it a big thing, and it was next door to Dr. Smith. Interviewer: Richard Smith? John: Richard Smith, Dick Smith yes, and of course across the street lived the Wonderlys, that one where the Stuyvesant lived or was it the next to it. Interviewer: I think it was the one next to it. John: It was the Blodgett house. Interviewer: The Blodgett house was on the corner and the next one was the Wonderly house. John: The Wonderly house right. This isn’t much for your record; that was where I was born, where the grocery store is now. I was born in that house. �6 Interviewer: In that house? That was your… John: That was my mother’s mother and father you see and apparently she came home to have the baby or… Interviewer: It was your grandfather and grandmother Sherwood? John: Yes. That’s where I was born. I think Emily was born in a hospital, I think. Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about your grandfather Sherwood, if you will John. John: He was Alfred Harry Sherwood, and his, I long thought he was born in Canada of a Canadian family. I now know that his father was born in Canada, my great-grandfather whom I never knew who came to Michigan and settled somewhere near Grand Rapids, not in Grand Rapids, that’s something I must ask mother where it was. And he sent his son back to Peterborough to go to college. And there he met my grandmother, Emily Jefferies, who had come from England with her sister; her father being a merchant seaman, out of Southampton. A merchant seaman is a man who owns his ship and sails it. They went to Australia for grain or whatever. And my grandfather Sherwood came back to Grand Rapids to teach school. But he was a budding inventor; he invented several things, one or two things he gave away to others. I think one of the funny things he invented was embalming fluid. I don’t know how he happened to get on that, but he gave it to a friend who had started a funeral home or something. Anyhow, grandfather invented, he started the Grand Rapids Panel Company, which provided the machinery and the technique for applying fine grain taken off beautiful pieces of mahogany or whatever they wanted, on to cheap wood, pine and so on. And eventually that was adapted to put graining on metal dashboards in automobiles when that was fashionable to have metal dashboards that looked like wood. He was very successful, he had one of the first automobiles in Grand Rapids and they had a boat on the lake, well they had a cottage at, they didn’t build it they bought a cottage from a man from Chicago at Macatawa Park, that my uncle said was designed by a man from Chicago called Wright. Now my uncle knew nothing about architecture, so he couldn’t have, he didn’t even know of whom he was talking, just a man called Wright from Chicago. Well you can look at it, pictures of it and see it looks as though it might have been one of Wright’s first ventures. Interviewer: Is the house still standing? �7 John: It still stands, the bungalow at Macatawa Park on the grove walk up there is very handsome. Interviewer: It is considered a Frank Lloyd Wright? John: I have talked to people who are authority on Wright and they won’t pick it because that’s all I can do is just say an uncle of mine who knew nothing of architecture produced the name Wright. You know he could have any, he just remembers that when his father bought the cottage it was said to have been by a man called Wright, from Chicago. He died in nineteen eleven, of cancer, when he was quite a young man, he was in his fifties. Interviewer: This was your grandfather Sherwood? John: Sherwood, grandfather Sherwood. Interviewer: Then your uncle carried on the business. John: And uncle Wallace, my mother’s brother carried on the business, but didn’t have his father’s capacity so it wasn’t terribly successful, and eventually went out of existence. The same sort of thing happened to my father when my grandfather died, dropped dead of a heart attack. Father was a lumberman up in the north. He has several lumber camps, and obviously his father must have given him the money to buy the timberland, but anyhow he was running these logging camps, walking around on snow shoes in winter and loving it. And he was up there when his father dropped dead. Interviewer: camps? Excuse me but what about you know, the approximate location of these lumber John: It was partly in the northern peninsula, the eastern end of the northern peninsula, but it was also, it must have been up in the area north east of Petoskey, in the northern end of the southern peninsula. Because he was there, in a logging camp when this happened and his best friend at the time was George Shelby. And Mr. [William] Shelby was president of the railroad. So they fixed up a caboose and a locomotive, and sent it with George Shelby on it from Grand Rapids up to Petoskey or where ever it was, and off on this logging road into the woods to get my father. Interviewer: Don’t you mean Mr. William Shelby, was president of the railroad? John: Yes, I said his father. �8 Interviewer: Yes I see he was… John: George’s father. And it was rather funny, there wasn’t any telegraph no way of getting news to my father that his father had dropped dead. Well everyone persuaded him to give up the lumber business, and to become head of the John Widdicombe Company, as the only son. But he again didn’t have all his father’s talents, and you know one has to keep adding ideas to a company to make it remain successful. I think my father had the idea that whatever his father had done was best, so it just went on being the same. And then the furniture business sagged in the twenties as you know, and the John Widdicombe Company faltered. And due to family feeling, father was removed from the presidency and went back to the lumber business. And various people took over, but the company must have had the will to live because it is still going. Interviewer: That’s right. I just wanted to say I think it would be interesting if you talked about your early recollections as a child and some of your childhood experiences, for your early educational experiences, things of that sort. John: I went to Miss Eastman’s school, it was a Kindergarten first, that’s the first school I remember. And then I was tutored for… Interviewer: Where was Miss Eastman’s school? John: Somewhere, I think it was one, what is that street that comes out by Rason and Dows? Interviewer: Jefferson? John: No, it doesn’t go through Jefferson, goes into Rason and Dows, it’s the street next to it. Interviewer: Oh, LaGrave? John: No, that’s down. Up the hill. Runs from the church that is next to the Masonic Temple. Interviewer: That’s Lafayette. John: No, that’s above Masonic Temple Interviewer: I’ve run out of streets. �9 John: Anyway, it was down there. And then I was tutored by Mrs. Field, so you want me to repeat the business about Jack Covode? She had four [students]; she divided her day, and nine to eleven, eleven to one, two to four and four to six. Interviewer: And where did she live John? John: She lived on Portsmouth Terrace. And she had a sister called Mrs. Herrick, who also did some tutoring, but was not nearly as good as Mrs. Field. Mrs. Field was really remarkable, ask Alexia Byrne, we owe her tremendous. She was marvelous about English. Well anyway, Jack Covode, Alexia Byrne, myself and Wilder Stevens at one point were the four that took those four hours, from four to six, five days a week. Then I went, my aunt Mary Joass, who came to this country at least once a year, if not twice to see her mother and her relatives and her friends. And one time in nineteen twenty-one, she suggested that I go back with her to England, because she was not only my aunt, but my godmother, and go to school, which I did for a year, almost two years. And then for various reasons I came back here and went to Central High School. From there when I graduated I went to the University of Virginia. When I finished there I went to New York and taught for two and a half years in Grace Church Choir School which was a resident school for boys who sang in the choir. They got it free for singing. And then I, that, the Depression was on and the church began to feel the pinch, and they turned the boarding school into a day school and cut the salaries in half. At that point my aunt Mary was coming through New York and said would you like to go to Oxford and I said that would be fine. So she gave me the wherewithal to take another degree at Oxford. From there I came back. Well, in London I worked on a newspaper for a while, the Sunday Referee, a sort of semi-scandal newspaper, as you know the English love those Sunday News of the World, the Sunday Referee. And then I met, had already known Lily Morris who was the wife of Ira Morris one of the minor meatpackers of Chicago and she had, she was a very extraordinary woman, when he was in Vienna not as Ambassador but in the Embassy, she got terribly interested in Maria Theresa. And she studied for two years in Vienna and she went as an undergraduate to Oxford in her sixties and finally finished this flight on Maria Theresa. And she was in the middle of shaping it up, you know editing and indexing and so on, and I came back to America to work with her and finish this book. But she was one of these women who needed only about four hours of sleep, and had a metabolism that left you gasping. So I, when the book was finished she wanted me to go on and do other things for her, but I said no I just couldn’t, it was just too taxing. She wanted to stay out all night and start work at eight o’clock in the morning and I just couldn’t manage it. �10 So I went to Virginia and by an accident, an accidental meeting a coincidence (which I won’t bother to go into) I got a job on the Virginia Writers Project at the WPA, as assistant state supervisor and spend five years writing a big Guidebook to Virginia and lots of other books, the book on Charlottesville on the University of Virginia which I did almost entirely. And a picture book on Virginia, which I did entirely. And from there I went into the war and went to Europe with the One Hundred Fourth Division, as a staff sergeant and a combat infantry division. And when the war was over, I for some months, I was idle not knowing what I wanted to do, and eventually got into U.N.R.R.A [United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration] and went to Poland as a special assistant to the chief of the under mission, a Canadian,”Bud” [Charles Alfred] Drury, a very nice guy, and had a absolutely fascinating time. And when that came to an end in June nineteen forty-seven, the still great unfinished business was the refugees, still in camps in Germany which we were responsible for. And we had handled the Polish; more than half of the refugees were Polish. And we handled the operation at the Polish end, and we had not authority but we had to deal with the trains that came in, which were not Polish We had many, many problems. And the man who had been in charge of that had to leave and go to England, and I had been his substitute, so that when U.N.R.R.A. came to an end, I was handling the refugee problems. And there were still nearly a million refugees in camps, so it was suggested that we open an office in Warsaw, much opposed by the Russians, because they didn’t want U.N.R.R.A. to come in, IRO the refugee organization to come into existence. But it did and the Poles accepted me as the chief of the mission to Warsaw refugee organization. I spent four years, three years more in Poland handling all that. Interviewer: Why don’t you talk a little bit about some of your friend that you got to know when you were in high school? You just mentioned to me that you lived in what is now known as the Morris manor, the house that is on the corner of Morris and Cherry Street, which was your father’s home at the time. John: Well I had known before I went to school in England, while I was being tutored during that period, I had known rather few. Should I name those few? Interviewer: Yes. John: Wilder Stevens, Lewis Reynolds, Ruth Denison, Cornelia Rood, well then when I came back from England and went to Central High School, I came to know people whom I, well came to know better as friends, people that I vaguely knew before because most of them, their parents were friends of my parents. Ed Dean, Jack Steketee, Sam and Bob Correll, Bob Oatman, Dew [DuBarry] Campau who’s Mrs. Serell Hillman now, Emily Wurzburg, …oh that nice girl who died… �11 Interviewer: ____________ John: No she was a bit too young. They lived across from Cornelia Rood. Oh dear, Kitty, her mother was Kitty. She was Kitty Seymour related to Mrs. Palmer, who was a Seymour. You know the Palmers? Interviewer: Yes I know who they are. John: Lanard, Mary Larnard, and the first Mrs., oh my memory is so bad, the man in the brokerage house down here, used to be in the Michigan Trust building. Bonnie Newcombe, who married who was a great big chap who was a broker, his sons went into it too. Cy[Cyrus] Newcombe, no Cy Newcombe was her brother, well never mind. And Barbara Vandenberg, and Catherine Handley, oh and Mary McClave and later I knew Bud quite well, but of course he in those years two or three years makes a lot of difference, and Mary was a bit younger than I and Bud was three or four or five years younger. Interviewer: Who were your parent’s closest friends during this period? John: My mother’s closest friend was Agnes Caufield, and Louise Long, and Emma Homiller and the usually the Duffys, another great friend of my mothers who died was Mrs. Shephard. Perhaps you never heard of Ned Shephard? Interviewer: Oh yes, I have. John: And Mrs. Ned Shephard and I can’t remember what her name was, she was a great friend of my mother’s but she died of pneumonia. And the other one was Lorraine McClave, not Lorraine McClave, Lorraine Bissell, who was Irving’s first wife. And the Pantlinds, Catherine’s mother and father, what was his… Fred, Fred and… Mr. and Mrs. Fred Pantlind. And the other Bissells, Olive Bissell, Mrs. M.R. Bissell, and oh dear it’s so far and so long ago. Interviewer: Of course she must have known Anna McKnight. John: Oh yes yes, all the Caufields. Anna McKnight, Marie who never married, Agnes who never married, Mrs. Hart, there were five of them, oh yes Chisolm’s mother. Interviewer: Mrs. Lichtenberger? John: Mrs. Lichtenberger and of course John [Caulfield] who … now we don’t need to go into the Peck business… John who married Clara Peck and they moved out to California. �12 Interviewer: When the depression came along I believe that your mother… John: Well my father having left the furniture business and gone into lumbering again was not nearly as prosperous as he had been and eventually my mother made an arrangement with a shop in Chicago, Blooms Bow a very nice arrangement because she had a shop in her own house, got a ten percent commission on everything she sold, and since she knew everybody in Grand Rapids and had great taste in clothing, she was very successful. And that went on for about fifteen years. Interviewer: That was the house on Fulton? John: No, a very wonderful scheme, she was first in strangely enough that house around the corner where I said my grandmother first lived, that Victorian house on College. And then she was walking down the street one day and ran into Camilla Shanahan, whose mother was very ill or had just died and she said, “we’re going to sell the house”, the Shanahan house, which was built by a Howard. Mrs. O’Brian’s brother, no I believe it was built by Mrs. O’Brian’s father. Interviewer: It could be yes. John: Either brother or father, I don’t know which generation. And then the Shanahans had bought it when they came with the Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company. And mother asked her how much they wanted, and she said, “well the real estate people were asking ten thousand.” Well mother immediately got on the telephone, she is quite clever sometimes, with Mr. Bloom in Chicago, and said, “what would you think of applying the same (cause he paid her rent) amount to amortizing a mortgage?” and he said, “fine, go ahead.” So, she bought it straight from Camilla and Florence, with no commission, so it was nine thousand five hundred dollars. And all that was paid, of course at the time, by Mr. Bloom. And when mother left it nine years ago, she sold it for forty thousand. Interviewer: It was a big house, the beautiful house. John: It was a lovely house, but the rooms were so arranged that it would have been very hard to turn it into apartments. They were big square rooms, well there’s no point in going into that here, and the plumbing was lead, it would have to be all redone, and the wiring would probably have to be all done, so mother sold it to that Institute. Interviewer: Davenport? John: Davenport. Well that’s about all I can do on that. �13 Interviewer: John I’ve noticed that you spell your name w-i-d-d-i-c-o-m-b-e, as your father did. Now the other Widdicombes have omitted the final e, what is the reason for that? John: I can tell you, I used to think that my great-grandfather had dropped the e, but mother tells me that William Widdicombe, who was the eldest son, dropped the e and persuaded his brothers to do so, and so the companies got started without the e. But it was dropped, and I know it was dropped now because I possess some letters written by the brother who stayed in Syracuse, rather the wife of the brother who stayed in Syracuse to her sister-in-law my greatgrandmother here worrying about her four nephews who were in the Civil War. So there’s quite a spate of letters. And she always signed them herself with an e. Interviewer: Well that explains that. John: But of course you can’t change the company. When the family had become more prosperous and were traveling to Europe, when they got to England they discovered that it always had the e. And so they put it back. And I have looked, I looked recently in my birth certificate and it’s spelled with an e. Interviewer: I see. John: So it was accepted with an e by that time and I was baptized that way, or rather, you know, registered. Interviewer: Tell us about your families religious affiliations over the years. John: Well I think that I, I think the Stockings were very pious and I think they were Presbyterian, but I can’t be sure. And if so that was the church I was baptized in. But my immediate family, father and mother were never particularly religious. My sister and I never went to Sunday school, a very Christian family if you like, a high sense of Christian ethic but my aunts were Episcopalians, and particularly Aunt Alida Ray went every Sunday to St. Mark’s. But I think that long ago the way we were brought up, my sister and I were rather disapproved of, because there wasn’t this emphasis on church-going. I think probably on the part of both my father and my mother a revulsion against Stocking’s piety, you see what I mean? Interviewer: Yes I understand. John: I don’t belong to any church. When I go to a church it’s for architectural reasons mainly. Interviewer: Now let’s talk a little bit about the Sherwood family who were related to you, they’re your first cousins, your generation which is still around in Grand Rapids. �14 John: Yes, all but one. My mother had a little sister who again as happened in those days, died young. But the other two grew up were my mother, and her brother Wallace, William Wallace Sherwood, who married Virginia Vevia. They had four children, Mary, Ann, Wallace, and David. Mary married, (of this is going to be hard for you) she was married three times, and consequently is no longer a Catholic, some boy who was the one from Holland? Interviewer: I can’t remember. John: Well anyway now she is married to Grindell McKee. Ann married Carl Schmidt, who was a brother of my sister’s husband David Schmidt, so those two are sisters-in-law and first cousins. Wallace married someone whose last name I don’t remember, and they have three children, Catherine, Virginia, and William (I think it is the other way around, Catherine, William and Virginia). Catherine just married Douglas Cramer, just a few months ago. David, the fourth child, never married and has lived for many years in California. Interviewer: Now why don’t you tell us about your nephew, your sister’s son? John: Oh yes, my sister has one son, William Widdicombe Sherwood Schmidt, which is rather a mouthful, who is about twenty-seven now, lives in Ann Arbor, went to the University of Michigan, and is now what do you call that, not a teaching assistant, he’s doing some teaching there while he’s finishing his work on a degree. And he married, I just said give my love to… to… it’s my age of course. Interviewer: Is it pertinent? John: No. Interviewer: He’s married you know that. John: He’s married and has no children. Interviewer: I was interested to note he is a member of Kent County Council for Historic Preservation and which saved the Voigt House which we toured together earlier this afternoon. John: This is I think though, he never mentioned it to me, but you’ve told me and one or two other things make me think he has quite an interest in old Grand Rapids and genealogical and family past history and so on. But he’s never mentioned it to me. But there are certain things that make me think he’s, privately from me, he does have these feelings. I think that’s about all, unless you can think of something else. �15 Interviewer: No, I just want to thank you very much. It’s been a delightful hour or so chatting with you. I hope you’ll be back in the not too distant future and by that time we can remember some things, you can remember some things you forgot to mention and we’ll have another session perhaps not quite so lengthy and put those thoughts and memories on tape. John: Well thank you very much. This is a new experience for me and as I’ve said it’s extraordinary to hear you played back when you’re not used to it. Interviewer: John. That never sounds like you, especially the first two or three times. Well thank you INDEX A D Auntie Rye (Eunice M. Hewitt) · 2 Davenport Institute · 14 Dean, Ed · 11 Denison, Ruth · 11 Douglas, Mrs. · 3 Drury, Charles Alfred "Bud" · 11 Dysart Hotel · 3, 4 B Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company · 13 Bissell, Lorraine · 12 Bissell, Mrs. M.R. · 12 Bissell, Olive · 12 Blodgett house · 6 Bloom, Mr. · 13 Blooms Bow · 13 Byrne, Alexia · 9 C Campau, Dew [DuBarry] · 11 Caufield family · 12 Caufield, Agnes · 12 Caulfield, Agnes · 12 Caulfield, John · 13 Caulfield, Marie · 12 Central High School · 10, 11 Correll, Sam and Bob · 11 Covode, Jack · 9 Cramer, Douglas · 15 F Field, Mrs. · 9 Field, Mrs. · 9 G George Widdicombe and Son Company · 1 Grace Church · 4 Grace Church Choir School · 10 Grand Rapids Mantel Company · 2 Grand Rapids Panel Company · 4, 7 Great Depression · 10 H Handley, Catherine · 12 Hart, Mrs. Esther (Caulfield) · 13 Herrick, Mrs. · 9 Hewitt, Esther · 2 �16 Hillman, Mrs. Serell · 11 Hodenpyl, Mr. · 5 Homiller, Emma · 12 Oxford University · 10 J Pantlind, Mr. and Mrs. Fred · 12 Peck, Clara · 13 Petoskey · 8 Jackson, Nancy · 4 Jefferies, Emily · 7 Joass, John · 4 Joass, Mary · 10 John Widdicombe Company · 2, 8 John Widdicombe Furniture Company · 4 P R Kent County Council for Historic Preservation · 16 Rason and Dows · 9 Ray, Alida (Widdicombe) · 15 Ray, Douglas · 4, 5 Ray, Mrs. Alida · 5 Reynolds, Lewis · 11 Rood, Cornelia · 11, 12 L S Larnard, Mary · 12 Lee, Mr. James · 3 Long, Louise · 12 Schmidt, Carl · 15 Schmidt, Catherine · 15 Schmidt, David · 15 Schmidt, Virginia · 15 Schmidt, William · 15 Schmidt, William Widdicombe Sherwood · 15 Seymour, Kitty · 12 Shanahan, Camilla · 13 Shanahan, Florence · 13 Shanahan family · 13 Shelby, George · 8 Shelby, Mr. William · 8 Shephard, Mrs. Ned · 12 Shephard, Ned · 12 Sherman house · 5 Sherwood family · 15 Sherwood, Alfred H. · 6, 7 Sherwood, Ann · 15 Sherwood, David · 15 Sherwood, Gertrude · 4 Sherwood, Mary · 15 Sherwood, Wallace · 8, 15 Sherwood, William Wallace · 15 Smith, Dr. Richard · 6 St. Mark’s Episcopal Church · 15 St. Mark's Episcopal Church · 4 Steketee, Jack · 11 Stevens, Wilder · 11 Stocking family · 14 K M Macatawa Park · 7 Maria Theresa · 10 Masonic Temple · 9 McClave, Bud · 12 McClave, Mary · 12 McKnight, Anna (Caulfield) · 12 Michigan Trust building · 12 Miss Eastman’s school · 9 Morris manor · 11 Morris, Ira · 10 Morris, Lily · 10 N Newcombe, Bonnie · 12 Newcombe, Cy · 12 O Oatman, Bob · 11 �17 Stocking, Alida · 2 Stocking, Billius · 2, 3 Stocking, Mary · 2 Stocking, Theodore · 2, 3 Stuyvesant Apartments · 6 Syracuse, New York · 1 T Thayer, Mrs. · 3 U U.N.R.R.A (United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration) · 10, 11 University of Virginia · 10 V Vandenberg, Barbara · 12 Vevia, Virginia · 15 Voigt House · 16 W Widdicombe and Richard · 2 Widdicombe Brothers · 2 Widdicombe family · 14 Widdicombe Furniture Company · 4 Widdicombe Furniture Company · 2 Widdicombe, Abbott · 2 Widdicombe, Alida · 4 Widdicombe, Emily · 4 Widdicombe, George · 1 Widdicombe, Harry · 1, 2 Widdicombe, Harry Theodore · 3 Widdicombe, John · 4 Widdicombe, Mary · 3 Widdicombe, Mr. John · 1 Widdicombe, Ralph · 2 Widdicombe, William · 1, 2, 14 Wonderly house · 6 Wright, Frank Lloyd · 7 Wurzburg, Emily · 11 Wurzburg, Leona · 2 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/941c200dfd603ead13f2ba1970ac2445.mp3 8231dbed4bb65bcd49e300316161502b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_45Widdicombe Title A name given to the resource Widdicombe, John Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Widdicombe, John Description An account of the resource John Widdicombe was born in Grand Rapids. His great-grandfather came to New York from England, before moving to Grand Rapids. Mr. Widdicombe's grandfather Alfred H. Sherwood started the Grand Rapids Panel Company, invented embalming fluid, and had a cottage in Macatawa Park rumored to have been designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. Mr. Widdicombe's father was a lumberman in the north. Mr. Widdicombe attended the University of Virginia. He then moved to New York where he taught at the Grace Church Choir School. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/359bbc0962780fea81924a509e591798.mp4 30170401f18ddc4ccb3d0414c9cab808 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7dd9a4f50a9b41d1dcfaa5af6361af07.pdf 71505ec4049c93b7f80df504897391b0 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Lee Widjeskog Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Lee Widjeskog of Bridgeton, New Jersey and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Lee, can you start us off on some background on yourself? But to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in Bridgeton, New Jersey. Raised in the little town of Rosenhayn, which is about…oh, maybe 7-8 miles away. And I grew up there, went to school and graduated from high school at Bridgeton High School then from there I ended up— Interviewer: What year did you graduate from high school? Veteran: I graduated in 1964. Interviewer: Okay. And what did your family do for a living while you were growing up? Veteran: My father was a carpenter. Often, he was a construction foreman. They did—work that he did with a lot of schools, commercial buildings…Actually, he started his career working on the Delaware Memorial Bridge as a laborer. So, he’s been all—he got around quite a bit. He originally came from Finland in 1937. And then, he ended up—actually, he ended up in the Army. He got drafted like a lot of other people and got his citizenship. My mother lived, was raised and born, just about a quarter mile from where I live today. And that’s how my father met �2 her because his sister lived across the street from where we live now. And there weren’t many people around and so they hooked up and eventually got married. And then, my dad built a house after I was born and its long part of the estate. So, that’s…and we have a—we had about a 20acre piece of ground. Mom and dad had a cow because we had our own milk, made butter. And then, in the ‘50s everybody in that area of south Jersey was raising chickens because there was big money in eggs. So, they put up a chicken coop, had 500 chickens, and we would pick the eggs and, you know, clean out the chicken coop every other year because then the chickens get too old, you know, and all that. Interviewer: Now, is that area still fairly rural? Or is it more built up now? (00:02:23) Veteran: Well, it’s more built up but compared to everything else it is still pretty rural. The land I have—I have now bought the land from my parents and it’s 2 acres less, but my sister has a house in a lot. But right around us it hasn’t changed a whole lot. In fact, across the street where my aunt and uncle lived, the state bought that and tore the house down, so it is a nice view now. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we have gotten—it’s getting better. Interviewer: Alright, so it is not necessarily what one thinks of when one thinks of New Jersey if you are an outsider. It is not all built up and paved. Veteran: No. When I went to college, people—when they said, “Where you from?” I said, “New Jersey.” “No, where did you grow up?” I said, “New Jersey.” “But you don’t talk right.” I said, “Well, I was from the southern part of the state.” I said, “We talk more like Philadelphia.” “Ah, you know, how come you don’t say Jersey and have a harsh accent?” I said, “That’s New York area.” �3 Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: So… Interviewer: So, where did you go to college? Veteran: I ended up going to college at Colorado State University. Interviewer: Okay. And how did you wind up there? Veteran: I went there because I wanted to major in wildlife management and wildlife biology. And when I was looking through the brochures, because I asked my counselor in school and they said—they gave me a blank look and said, “Here. Well, take these brochures and look through here.” And I came up with about 5 or 6 different schools. Some I eliminated, one eliminated me because I wasn’t southern enough and this is back in the ‘60s when racial things were going on. So, they just didn’t want to deal with anybody from the north. And then, I got it down to the three schools that had the curriculum that looked like I’d be really interested in were Colorado State, University of Montana, and the Utah State. And I ended up at Colorado State, which I liked the best out of the three but they were the only school that would allow—and this is ’64— that would take—actually, in ’63—that would take an application from a non-resident prior to graduation. So, the other two schools I had to graduate and then apply. So, I applied to Colorado State in January. They accepted me and I never applied anywhere else. I figured that’s good. Interviewer: Alright. (00:04:42) Veteran: And I went—the first time I saw the campus was the day I signed the papers when I got there in September. And my mother drove me out, said—got me to my dorm, said, “Well, see you later! See you at Christmas time.” And that was…and that’s the way it was. We didn’t…it �4 was not expensive by today’s terms but, you know, fairly reasonable and I worked in the summers. My parents paid for most of it. And that’s where I started. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you required to do an ROTC program because it was a land grant school? Or…? Veteran: There was…they gave you an option and you could do either ROTC or you could do phys ed for the first two years. Well, I looked at things. I said, “Alright. I know, you know, everybody is subject to the draft in those days. Had to sign up when you turned 18. So, I figured well, I don’t see any reason why I won’t get drafted at some point. So, I may as well sign up for ROTC. It gives me a little more of a cushion because you got a better deferment.” So, I signed up for ROTC. And then—and it’s really not signed up as such the first two years. All it is is taking the courses. But at the end of the second year, then you have to sign commitment papers and you will say I am signed up and I am going in the Army. And at that point, if you drop out of school you immediately go into the Army. You know, or if you flunk out, you immediately go to the Army. So, I signed those papers but the advantage of that is they also paid me 50 bucks a month, which is—when you consider that my tuition for a quarter, and we were in a quarter—I think— system, was $1300 a quarter, 50 bucks a month is a pretty nice chunk of change. Interviewer: Yeah. You could buy a fair amount of food or whatever else. (00:06:38) Veteran: Yeah. And so, I signed up. And I also participated in one of the—they had a ranger section, so I participated in that. And then I also ended up participating in a drill team for a little bit. I don’t know how I got in these things but…somebody else would say, “Oh yeah, we are doing this. This would be good.” I’d say, “Oh, good idea! I will try that.” And so, that’s what I did. And then finally, I had some trouble in school. There were courses I…you know, some of �5 the math courses were killing me. I finally got through them and then I had to take a soils course. It’s a six hour course and, you know, you went everyday and it was…I really had a tough time so I had to take that over. So, when I am taking these other courses, I ended up going a little longer than I would have. So, I ended up actually going for an extra two quarters. So, I didn’t graduate until March of ’69. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Now, one of the things the Army does: you also have to spend six weeks in basic training for officers. Interviewer: Okay. Now, at what—now, is this after you graduate or while you are still in ROTC? Veteran: While you are still in ROTC. And so, I did that in the summer of ’68. And I went down to Fort Riley, Kansas. So…and it was very interesting. You know, it’s basic training. They make—it’s probably a little different for officers than it is for the rest of the men, but it was six weeks and then it was over with. And then I came back to school and in the meantime, they said, you know, they are saying, “Okay, what units—where would you—what would you like to serve in? Would you like to be in artillery? Chemical corps? MPs?” You know, they have all—they have the list of different units. (00:08:34) Veteran: And the colonel that was in charge of our unit said, “Oh yeah boys, get your three selections.” You know, it is a wish list. He said, “But you have to have a combat branch as either your first or second choice.” Which I found out was not true, but I didn’t know that at the time. So, I looked at the different combat branches and I really wasn’t interested in anything. I said, “Well, infantry—that’s close to what I could understand.” You know, I run around the woods all �6 the time. I’ll try this infantry. I put that second. I think my first choice was…I think I asked for chemical corps. My third choice was MP. And I was looking—and those I picked based on what I thought I would be doing after I left the Army because I was—I had worked two summers with New Jersey Fish and Game and I worked a bit with chemicals in actually foliage control, which really, you know, it turns out Agent Orange is a—that’s a fairly good mix. And then, I also knew that if I couldn’t get a job as a biologist, I could probably get a job as a conservation officer so if I got in the MPs, that would give me a background to make me more desirable when I went to look for a job. So, I was—and then the infantry was…I didn’t see myself riding around in tanks or I didn’t like the artillery, engineers… Interviewer: You had enough of the math at that point? (00:10:03) Veteran: Yeah. Although in reality, none of that would have happened but it’s just the concept and that’s how it…So, needless to say, I was fortunate enough to get infantry. Interviewer: Okay. I want to back up a little bit here. What did the ROTC curriculum actually consist of? Because first years are classroom? Or…? Veteran: Most of it is classroom. Every year is classroom. You know, there is some drilling but it’s classroom work. They go over the basic Army procedures, they, you know, they do stuff on some of the, you know, tactics. But it is very, very broad. And you learn, you know, what’s expected of officers and how to treat the enlisted men. And you know, some people don’t pay attention to that but—and that’s—it’s very basic information. And if you remember everything, you’re good. And then when you go to the basic course in the field, then you actually get to call in air strikes, adjust artillery, and things like that. And they don’t just let you call in air strikes; they got somebody listening to make sure you give the right coordinates and, you know. But— �7 and so, you get a feel for what’s going on. And you also try out the various armaments that you are likely ton encounter. By that time, I knew I was going to be infantry, so they gear you towards that. And then when you graduate, on graduation—because I graduated in March, there was no ceremony for the school. But the Army had a ceremony for those of us who were going to be officers. They had…they, you know, gave us our bars and our commission. And then, and the first orders. And the first orders said, “Show up to Fort Benning.” Interviewer: Right. Veteran: At Fort Benning, they rehash everything you did for four years. They do it in nine weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had mentioned that when you did your original sort of basic stuff at Fort Riley, you had the impression maybe that it was a little more laid back than it might be somewhere else? Or…? (00:12:08) Veteran: Yeah. And I—only from what I heard afterwards. You know, to me it was not stressful. There was no big deal about it, so it was just… Interviewer: And when you were doing that, that was all ROTC guys? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They were all guys from different schools, some from the same school. But…and it, you know, and we ended up—you know—you could see…You end up having, even though we are only together for six weeks, our company ended up having a little bit more of a spree. We got together, we were being inspected by some second lieutenant, ROTC probably, giving us a ration �8 of crap about, you know, “You got gnarlies under the bunkbeds.” You’d say, “Gnarlies?” “Yeah, dust stuff.” “Oh, dust bunnies?” “Gnarlies. They are gnarlies.” They gave us a—and so we had to clean the whole place over again, you know, that kind of thing, and then wax the floor. They were planning to tear these buildings down at the end of the year but nothing new. But as a result of that, one of the guys in the group, he was very good at caricatures. And so, they made a banner and had a caricature on there. We called ourselves “The Gnarlies” and from that point— and we carried that with us wherever we went. And that’s that. And so, whenever we competed with anybody, you know, it was always “Go gnarlies!” And so, you know, which is what the Army really wants. They like the fact that you—everybody is working together. And it was just interesting. We did, you know, we took it he was challenging us in one way, but we took it that way. It worked out very well, you know. So, we had a—overall, we had a fine time. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you are going through college and you’re going through ROTC at the time when Vietnam really happens. Because in ’64, we didn’t really have ground troops in the mix because— Veteran: Right, and I can tell you that in ’64 I did not really anticipate going. They can send me some place, but I didn’t really think I was going to be getting shot at. Not ’64. But… Interviewer: Now, did you pay any attention to those developments as they unfolded? (00:14:16) Veteran: I was paying more attention, yes. And after a while, by the time ’68 rolled around, I said, “Oh…This is going to be very interesting.” And I…and the fact that I had to go an extra couple months in school did not disappoint me, you know, because I was thinking, “Well, maybe they will finally get this thing settled and I’ll, you know, I’ll miss it.” I wasn’t anxious to go out �9 and get shot at or, you know. But I, you know, and then they did the lottery in ’69. Well, I was already signed up, so it didn’t matter. But I never—people said, “What was your number?” I said, “I don’t care.” I didn’t want to know. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now, take us through the infantry basic school at Fort Benning. What was that experience like? Veteran: That was…it was interesting. It’s very similar to the…to our, you know, our other officer training that I had at Fort Riley. But the biggest difference was I didn’t have to stay in the barracks because you were now officers so you went to—you could go to the officer barracks or, I was married at the time, so I went home to be with my wife and then we’d come back in the morning. Of course, it would be early. And there’s lots of PE but I had always been pretty well in that. I ran cross country in high school so, you know, people are dying on the run and I was “Yeah, I’ll run some more.” So, it—you know, that part was kind of fun. We ended up with a captain of our company who had been a staff sergeant in Vietnam and got a field commission to captain. And then they brought him in, brought him back to go through the officer basic training. But since he was there, they also made him in charge of our company. And he was a very interesting person. And we did some field training exercises with tactics and whatnot and he was in charge. And we were doing, you know, setting up ambushes and stuff like this. And working with him, you just—you really felt like here’s a guy who knew what he was doing, and you felt that whatever he decided was going to be right. And I thought about it years later, I said, “You know, if I was assigned to him, I would have been very happy.” I also felt that if I was assigned to him, I probably wouldn’t have survived because he was doing stuff that was dangerous, but he was good at it. (00:16:43) Interviewer: Mhmm. �10 Veteran: And I—he was supposed to be going back to ‘Nam after—he wanted to. He was—and I never—I couldn’t remember his name and I don’t know whatever happened to him but apparently somebody said he was up for, you know, Medal of Honor. You know. And if you were field promoted from E-6, you did something in the field, you know, that probably would rank pretty high. Interviewer: Do you have a sense of how old he was at the time that you worked with him? Veteran: I had a—he…to me, he felt much older than us. I don’t know how old he was. But I would say he was probably just about—he was much more worldly than the rest of us. You could see that. Not only in his Army knowledge but, you know, when he talked about women and things like that, it was like, “Okay, he has been around a lot longer than the rest of us have.” But he probably was only was couple years older, if that. You know, he might have been about…he might have been 24. You know. We were all, you know, 22, 23. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, with your group, did you have reserve officers? Or…? Academy people? Did you have anyone else with you? Veteran: It—we were…No, we didn’t have academy—academy people always went together. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we had all—as far as I know—they were all reserve officers. And we also had some foreign officers that were training with us. We had some from Nicaragua, Honduras, Laos. And so, they were taking the training with us. We got to know those guys off and on. But that was pretty much it. We were from all over. Talked to different guys, got to know them. They were from Michigan and California and some from Jersey and some from Nebraska. You know, it was a very homogenous mix. �11 Interviewer: Now, were most of the people training you people who had already been to Vietnam? I mean, your company commander was but…Or…? (00:18:41) Veteran: Well, for the NCOs, yes. For the officers, no. The—in fact, one of the training officers—one of the guys who was like an executive officer for the training companies was actually somebody I saw in Vietnam later on. He was just a little bit ahead of us, so he had already taken his training, so they kept him over to be executive officer and then that was just stateside. He ended up over in ‘Nam the same time I did. When I seen him later on, I thought, oh look, he was in charge of me. “Hey, is that you?” He said, “Oh yeah, that was me.” Of course, he didn’t remember me. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But… Interviewer: Now, with a course like that, do most of the people who start basic course, do they finish it? Or do they do something— Veteran: Yeah, I would say. Yeah, 95%. Actually, if someone didn’t finish it, it might be because some physical ailment showed up that…and if it was to the point you couldn’t finish the course, it wasn’t, you know, unbearable. It was just that you were going to be drummed out of the Army because you weren’t physically fit. I don’t know of anybody who…I never heard of anybody who did not complete the course or quit the course. The option of quitting the course was to go— you’d be drafted, so… Interviewer: Well, or get—I know guys who did that and got—and went straight to Vietnam so… (00:20:07) �12 Veteran: Yeah. And we did have—and you had your orders when you got there so you knew where you were going next. And my orders were to go to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And the big issue—the big thing I remember about this: I was there, you know, and they are paying me. This is my first full-time job. You know, I’ve had summer jobs but now I’ve got a full-time job. I get a paycheck every month; this is really neat. And here they are, they are paying me temporary duty pay to be there for that 9 weeks. So, I get another $11 a day I am there. It was like oh man, all this money. And so, as we are getting close to graduation for the unit, guys are saying, “Well you know, they got other courses. You can sign up for Ranger school, you can sign up for airborne, you can sign up for heavy mortar platoon leader school.” And so, I said, “Yeah…” So, I signed up for airborne. I said, “I’ll jump out of an airplane.” I had no interest in doing that, but it was $11 a day and 3 weeks a course, you know. And it’s a lot of running and again, it’s nothing that you can’t handle. And so, went through jump school. Made my 5 jumps, got my wings. And I also, then, I tried to sign up for the heavy mortar platoon leader school. And my point of doing that was because I wanted to have more experience directing fire. And I thought well, maybe there is a chance I will be assigned to heavy mortars and I know they are pretty far in the rear. But you know, I didn’t expect that one to happen, but I was more interested in getting the experience firing. And—but it turns out, that’s a 5-week course and it started every 5 weeks. Well, I took a—I should have signed up for that first, then I could have signed up for airborne because they started that every week. But I didn’t so I wasn’t able to. And so, I ended up going back down to Fort Polk. And I had actually considered Ranger school for a bit, but that’s a 10week course. Most of the time you are away from home and I hadn’t been married that long. I said, “Nah, nah, nah. I am not doing that. I am going to stay.” So, if I hadn’t been married, I probably would have tried Rangers, you know. (00:22:19) �13 Interviewer: Now, ideally you could string together enough schools that it’s all over by the time you are done. But… Veteran: Yeah, probably. Interviewer: But going that way…Okay, so now you go down to Fort Polk. So, how long was the course at Fort Benning? The infantry basic is…is it 3 months? Or…? Veteran: It was 9 weeks. Interviewer: 9 weeks, okay. And so, then you have like 3 more weeks for jump school? Veteran: Yeah. So, I end up in Fort Polk around in the beginning of August. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s not…it’s ’69? Yeah. Veteran: Pardon? Interviewer: ’69? Yeah, okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Now, Fort Polk, Louisiana in August. So, what was that like? Veteran: It was warm. It was humid. And it was considered by the people who are in the Army full—for life, or for their whole career—they considered going to Vietnam and going to Fort Polk as 2 hardship tours in a row. That’s how much they thought of Fort Polk. They didn’t really care for it. So, I heard all the scuttlebutt. And you know, I—when my wife and I drove down to—we drove into Leessville and it’s not a place you want to take your wife through because she’s just, you know, she’s just getting used to being in the service with you and you go in there and there is nothing but—at that time—it was nothing but the strip joints and bars and pawn �14 shops and sleezy motels, you know? She says, “Aw, we can’t be living here.” You know? We went into the post and they said, “Well, there is no on post housing for junior officers.” But they had—there were trailer parks around. We ended up renting a mobile home, which was much nicer. It turned out to be fine. And as I—so, I get there, and I am talking to the other officers that I had met in officer basic. And they—some of these guys were much more knowledgeable and then too, you know, they had relatives in the Army, so they knew what was happening. They said they had already got the scuttlebutt. They said, “Oh,” they said, “yeah, the worst assignment out there is Tiger Ridge. It’s 30 miles from post and you’re in the woods all the time.” And you know, so I heard the scuttlebutt. (00:24:26) Veteran: And so, we are sitting around—we are sitting, me and the colonel, who is giving us our assignments. And one guy gets an assignment and he’s got training company and somebody else has got a machine gun range. And somebody else has the hand grenade range and another guy has another training company. And he finally gets to Widjeskog, which is always the end of the line. Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: And he says—he couldn’t say my name—but that’s…I didn’t notice that as anything special. If he said it right the first time, I would have been really surprised. But he says, essentially, he says, “Widjeskog, hi. I see that you have a degree in wildlife biology, so I am going to send you where there is a lot of wildlife. I am going to send you to Tiger Ridge.” I am thinking, oh good. So, I end—so I report to Tiger Ridge the next day. It turned out to be the best assignment I could have ever asked for. I worked essentially half a day on Wednesday, day and night Thursday/Friday, and then turned the company back to their company commander on noon at Saturday. And then I—unless I was officer of the day, I was off until the following �15 Wednesday. So, it was like I got all this down time. So, my wife and I, we’d go down to—drive down to Houston, we’d go to Mobile. Go visit people, because I’d have 3-4 days off. Interviewer: Okay. And what were you actually doing on Tiger Ridge? Veteran: In Tiger Ridge, I worked with 2 NCOs who had been to Vietnam. And these were guys who had probably another 3 or 4 months to go when they got to out there. And they were not happy campers. But they worked with me well. They had a bigger problem with the first sergeant, which is usually the case, because I wasn’t going to give them any brassy shit, I’m the new guy. (00:26:15) Veteran: But they are showing me this is what we do, this is where you…And we set up ambushes and we set up booby traps and then we’d run the troops through it. These things, we’d set them up and ambush. And then we’d have a, you know, tell them how to set up a perimeter at night and have them digging foxholes and, you know, telling them to be quiet at night and that you’re going to be—you may have situations where the NVA or VC will be out hollering at you and trying to locate your position. And so, you know, and that’s what we did. And we lived in tents for the time we were out there. But it was, you know, avoided the snakes and it was fine. Interviewer: Okay. So, and of course you are on a ridge so at least you’re not on the swamp. Veteran: That’s right. It was nice high ground. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: Pretty much. There was creeks and then the first day I was out there, you know, I saw all the poisonous snakes in North America, except for the coral snake. I saw that a couple weeks �16 later. So, there’s plenty of poisonous snakes. And I had—when they told me, “Eh, you got to watch out for the snakes,” and I am thinking oh yeah, they told me that in Fort Benning; I couldn’t find a poisonous snake and I traipsed through the woods. Out there? Oh, man. Our biggest problem was the recruits. We’d catch these little pigmy rattlers and then they’d milk them and keep them for pets. So, you know they’d have 8-inch, 10-inch rattlers they would…And then, they’d also catch scorpions and put them in their earplug containers and have them in their epaulettes, they were going to take them back with them, you know. So, we were having to check these guys all the time and had to release the wildlife. But these are 18-year-old kids. You know, some of them first time in the wild and other ones wouldn’t touch them but you know, it’s like, “Oh, wildlife!” Interviewer: Yeah. Now, what kind of attitude did you observe among the recruits? Because this is now 1969 and most—a lot of draftees. (00:28:09) Veteran: They seemed to be pretty basic, you know. You know, they are—they didn’t have a…They were, “Aw, we got to do this.” You know? They paid—some of them paid close attention, others just did what they had to. But we never had any real problem. The only problem we ever had was when we were doing, you know, trying to get them to give up their positions on the perimeters. They’d start hollering at us sometimes. And then they’d throw rocks at us. And we’d holler back, “You quit throwing those rocks or we are going to throw a grenade simulator.” Well, a grenade simulator you don’t hear it until it goes off. So, you don’t want to be too close to that. So, we had one time we threw a grenade simulator and it fell in their foxhole. We hear these guys scrambling out of it and that thing goes off. And it’s raining more rocks at us. But you know, but that was it. The troops were basically…they were pretty good. The NCOs I worked with, they had issues with the first sergeant but the two of my guys, we got along well. And we �17 worked everything out. So, but we did all sorts of things like, you know, how to search a village. And we never—I never searched a village again. You know? And detecting booby traps and we didn’t have any booby traps out when we were in the jungle where we were at that time. So, you know, the ambush was one thing that we did do. But a lot of the stuff that we were doing there was just…It was geared for the southern part and I Corps was just a different area. I mean, it was… Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and particularly once you get up in the hills. If you were down more—closer to the coast, you’d run into more of the other kind of stuff. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: But in the area that you wound up it was quite different. Yeah and of course Vietnam was just so different from one area to another, it is hard to plan for the whole thing. (00:30:06) Veteran: Yeah, and nobody realized that. I didn’t realize it. And even the Army, who should have realized it, they geared their training for where most of the trick work had been. And I think most of the people who were going over at that time, a high percentage of them were going to be still in the lowlands and that area because they weren’t going to the mountains. But we didn’t— but then, things were getting hot up in I Corps so… Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, when do you finish the assignment at Fort Polk? Veteran: I finished that in the beginning of early in February. And then I had a 30-day leave and so my wife and I drove home. And by this time, she’s 9 months pregnant. And so, she had—our daughter was born on the 11th of March and I was due to leave for jungle school on the 17th of March. So, I got…And I assumed—and then my orders said, “Jungle school and then Vietnam.” �18 So, I said goodbye to my wife and daughter and my parents and everybody. Took off, went down to the canal zone where they had jungle training for 2 weeks. Finished jungle training and then they said, “Alright, you have 6 days to get from here to Fort Ord. Go ahead. We will see you later.” Well, I said, “6 days?” There was airplanes. I went home. Interviewer: Right. What was the jungle school like? Veteran: Jungle school was…kind of neat. We did a little bit of ambushing but mostly it was just a lot of walking through the jungle, getting hot and sticky and they were showing you plants that you could eat and, you know, what you had to avoid. And talking about ways that you could survive in the jungle if you should be, you know, cut off from rations and…and for the most part, most of us did not expect that would ever happen. And that’s pretty much true. But the Army wanted to make sure that the officer—and it was primarily officers that went through it. They did have some NCOs—but they wanted to make sure that the officers had some background. And I think the other thing is it gave you a little more chance to get used to the hot weather before you got there. So, you know, to me it was I got to see tree sauce and, you know, it was…I was having a good time identifying things. Interviewer: Right. So, for a wildlife biologist, it’s not a bad job. (00:32:41) Veteran: Yeah. It was—yeah, I was having a good time. So far, the Army was doing good for— by—me. Interviewer: Okay, so now you go. You go home again, you get out to Fort Ord, California. Did you spend much time there or…? Veteran: I ended up being there for 12 hours. Turns out, I got there before my flight left but it was due to leave in an hour, but they wouldn’t let me board. They said, “No, we have already— �19 we went ahead and filled it. You’ll have to wait.” I said, “Oh gee whiz, I am sorry.” They said, “The next flight will be out in 12 hours.” So, I stayed in the airport for 12 hours, got on the following flight. And this flight flew from Fort Ord to Alaska, and then from Alaska to Okinawa, and from Okinawa went to Vietnam. And I was—if I had gotten the flight I was scheduled, I would have been on with a lot of the officers that I had trained with because they were all due about the same time. But because I missed that flight, I ended up going with a lot of enlisted men. So, you know, I was one of the few officers I think on board, but it didn’t matter, you know. Everybody—the guys were all having a good time. And they had a good time going to Alaska and they had a god time going to Okinawa and they had a good time with going to Vietnam. And we hit Vietnam coast just as we are getting to dusk. And you could—as we hit the—you know, flew over the ground, you look down and all of a sudden you got craters everywhere. And we are going down to Tan Son Nhut Airbase. You know, and it—you look down there and there’s craters, craters, craters, just, you know, all over the place. And at that point, everyone—the plane really got quiet. (00:34:22) Veteran: You know, it just—everybody shut up because they are all looking at—like, “Oh…shit. We are here now. The fun is over.” And then we got off the plane. Well, you’ve been on this plane for 14 hours. You step out and it’s just like a wall of humidity just…Okay. And then they hustle us off into a bus and I don’t believe it was air conditioned. Probably wasn’t. And we got on there and you got the chain link fence over the windows. And one of the guys—as we are getting on there—one of the guys says, “Is that to keep us in?” I said, “No, that’s to keep the grenades out.” “Oh…” So, it was—and by this time, it is dark, you know. And then they drove us by bus over to the barracks. And then I—that’s when I—and then the next day, I found a…I located some of the guys that I had been training with and I found my orders up on the board and �20 they said, “Yeah, your orders are up there.” That’s when I found out I was going to be a platoon leader for alpha company 2506, 101st. I mean you know, for me that was fine. And I talked to one of the guys, Bob McMann, and I said, “Where are you going, Bob?” “I am going to the 101st. I will be up at the Camp Evans.” I said, “Oh, me too.” I said, “What are you going to do?” He says, “I’ll be PX officer.” I said, “PX officer?” I said, “You are infantry.” He said, “PX officer.” I said, “Wow.” You know, I did not know that they were giving us 6 months in the field, 6 months in the rear. I had no knowledge of that. Other guys, some guys, knew it but you know, that was never discussed when I, you know, in my circle. So, I just figured well, I’ll be infantry officer for a year. And I couldn’t believe that he was going to be a PX officer for a year. (00:36:12) Interviewer: Right. Now, when you are…When you got there, did they sort of ask you anything like well, which unit do you want to go to? Or are they just telling you? Veteran: No, there was no asking. They just—they had it up on the board and here you go. Interviewer: And did you have any sense of what the difference was between one unit and another, at that point? Veteran: No. To me it was just 101st? That sounds good. I’ve heard of them. As for platoon leader, okay, I knew that was what I was going to do so to me it was like okay. You know, give me an assignment. Interviewer: Alright. Now, they—how did they get you up to Camp Evans? Veteran: From there, seems to be they probably—I think we took a…I want to say we took a C130 to Da Nang. I believe that’s what we did. And then we picked a chinook up from there and that took us up to either Camp Eagle or Evans, and I don’t recall now. And if it was Camp Eagle, �21 then they would have dropped—taken us…I think it was Evans because I think we got to Evans in the chinook. And that was my first experience with a chinook, and I didn’t like it and I never did like it from then on. It was very noisy, vibrated like crazy, and if you were on the ground, it threw dust and sand all over you. You know, just a really tough machine to be near. But we got there and then they enrolled us in SERTS, which is the Screaming Eagle Replacement Training. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And so, that’s…We did that for the next 2 weeks and that was interesting. And the purpose of that, they told us, was to give you a chance to get used to the weather before they sent you out into the bush. Interviewer: Now, physically, does your body have to adjust to all of this? Or is your— Veteran: Yeah, I think for a lot of people. It depends on what you do for—in your regular life. I mean, I worked on the marshes of New Jersey, you know, in 100-degree weather and the humidity there is more than hot. So, it’s—most of it to me was oh yeah, it’s hot. It’s humid. I— psychologically, it didn’t bother me at all. I also worked in a situation in New Jersey where we had lots of mosquitoes and other insects and so some guys talk about the mosquitoes in Vietnam, and they were just sort of background to me. (00:38:26) Veteran: And you know, and that’s just because of what you are used to. And so, I think, you know, I adjusted to it fairly quickly. What took longer to adjust to was the weight of the rucksack. But you know for the training there, I paid attention and then from there they said, “Okay, go—tomorrow you will meet your battalion commander.” Interviewer: Okay. So, what’s sort of the normal pack to carry? You said the weight of the rucksack. So, what is going to be in that? �22 Veteran: Well, the rucksacks that I normally carried on me, it was not only the rucksack but the web gear. And I would carry a minimum of 6 hand grenades, usually a minimum of 6 smoke grenades, then I would have 400 rounds of M-16 ammo. I did not carry a pistol. I had no desire to have a 45. I wanted to have—I decided I wanted the M-16 because it made no sense for me to carry ammo that somebody else couldn’t use if I got shot. So, and I wanted to be able to shoot if I had to. And I knew technically I wasn’t supposed to have to shoot. You know, if things are going well. Well, not too much anyway. But and then, I also—we all carried a pound of C-4. You’d carry 3 days’ worth of rations and that’s…those are, you know, that’s all canned rations. So, you are looking at a couple pounds for each day. Well, a couple pounds for each meal. And then you’d carry a gallon and a half to two gallons of water. And you’d carry an entrenching tool, a bayonet, you carried a…you’d have a terry towel for wiping off the sweat. You had your hard helmet. You had your poncho, your poncho liner. You carried 600—100 rounds of M-60 ammunition for the machine gun. Everybody carried that. I carried a strobe light. I carried…I ended up carrying blasting caps because nobody else wanted to carry them. And I, you know, I don’t blame them. I knew what they could do but somebody’s got to carry them, so I’d put them in my ruck and hope they didn’t blow up too fast. (00:40:40) Interviewer: So, did you ever add up what all that weighed? Veteran: No, but you know, I was told it was…it varied between sometime during the day, between 60 and 90 pounds during that period when you first pick it up. And you learn to— alright, what don’t I need? I don’t need this; I don’t need that. But I also carried an M-60 ammo box, which is about probably 3 inches and by 12 inches and about 8 inches high. And that’s waterproof. And that’s where I kept my writing utensils and if I had a magazine or book, I’d keep that there. And I always had books and magazines, so you know. And pictures from home, �23 you know. So, when you start adding all this stuff up, that’s a big…But it’s what you want. Now, the guys—some guys were very specific and say, “Oh, I am not going to carry that gun. I’m not going to carry that.” And you also had a claymore mine, that was another pound and a half, you know. So, you know, and it—and you had trip flares. You start thinking about it, it keeps going up as far as what you had. And it was easy the first time you get it all together. To get it back on the ground, you get it down there, you put it on your shoulders, and then you go to stand up and you can’t get up. So, we always had somebody there to give you a hand and then get you up. Once you’re up, you’re good. But after you had—after a while, you learned to make sure you had that on the uphill side, you’d be on the downhill side and you could get up. But trying to get into your pack and get up flat, you had to have somebody give you a hand in most cases. (00:42:14) Interviewer: Okay. So, that’s something they didn’t do at Fort Benning or any place else? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Not on that level. Veteran: We never carried rucksacks like that. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you go out. Now, did you join your unit in the field or were they in the camp? Or…? Veteran: I got—well, after I got done with SERTS, I met Colonel Lucas and, you know, he welcomed me to the organization and everything. He said, “You know, your guys are out in the field right now.” He said, “Go down to your—see the first sergeant down there in alpha company and he will make arrangements to get you out in the field.” And so, I met with Sergeant Ross who then said, “Here, go see supply. They will get you your rucksack.” So, they loaded me up �24 with all sorts of good stuff. And the next morning I went to the chopper pad. I got on the chopper pad with the mail and flew out there. It was about a 20-minute flight. And thought—I am looking down and I see, you know, we are flying around and there’s this opening and I see some smoke there. I don’t see anybody down there. You know? Just the smoke coming up, you know. Purple smoke. And then they come down and then the door gunner says, “Alright. Get out.” And you jump out. And you know from my training, I said, “Okay, I got to get away from the helicopter as fast as I can because if it gets shot down it becomes a danger.” So, you get out and you run away. And so, I am running off into the bushes and there’s not—I don’t see anybody, you know. It was like I hope somebody is here. But I am just doing what I was trained. I run off in the bushes and then somebody says, “LT, over here!” and then the radioman, who was—had called in the chopper—and somebody else came out and got the stuff that was on the—the other stuff that was on the helicopter. And then he led me back to where the company was. (00:44:02) Interviewer: Now, when was this that you got out there? Veteran: Turns out it was about the 30th of April. Interviewer: Okay. So, you are all—by this time, the battalion—they have set up the base on Ripcord? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Which, we will talk about in a moment. And so, you are out there in the hills in the jungle and so forth, the highlands; you’re not down in the lowland area at all. Now, who was the company commander at the time you joined? Veteran: My company commander was Albert Burkhart. And he had been company commander since January. And he eventually—he left the company at the end of May and moved on to �25 another job. But I met him and Captain—or Lieutenant Wilcox at that time. Jeff Wilcox was there. He was first platoon leader. And second platoon leader, which I was taking over, was Garrett Kelly was there. He was still there, and he was going to show me around for a couple days. And third platoon was headed up by Jim Noll. And we just had three platoons and that was it. And then the—there was also the foreign observer, the FO, he was…that was Lieutenant Brennan. And he was West Point and so was Wilcox. Everybody else was either OCS or I think the other two officers were OCS. And but that’s—and I got meet all them. And yeah, and that’s where we—we operated out of there for the next couple…I guess next week or so, we operated in that AO. And there really wasn’t much going on of significance, other than the one thing I remember is hearing that the first platoon or first—yeah, first platoon had flushed a pheasant out there and off of a nest and they were checking the eggs to see if they were edible. But they were talking about this long-tailed pheasant. So… Interviewer: Now, about how many men were in your platoon when you got there? (00:46:06) Veteran: I don’t remember right off hand, but invariably it was probably no more than 25. The most I ever recall having in my platoon I think was after Ripcord and I remember I wrote to my wife and I mentioned that we had 29 people; that’s the most I have ever seen. So…. And there were maybe more people assigned. There were probably more people assigned to me. But what happens is people are going in for medical reasons, they are going in for R and R, they deros [rotate back to the US], they come back and forth. So, you just—you never have a whole lot of guys in the field with you. And in fact, shortly after I got there one of my NCOs came back about 3 days later. On the next time we got resupplied, he comes into the field, so I met him. And he just came off of an R and R, so he spent a lot of time just telling everybody how great R and R �26 was and the good time he had with this great girl he met in Thailand, etc., etc. And then after everything was over, you know, and everybody else—I said, “Alright guys, break it up gang. Back to playing Army here. Get back out.” And then he came to me and says, “Oh LT,” he says, “I got to go on the next chopper here. I got to go back in.” I said, “Why?” He says, “I got the clap. I got to get some shots.” I said, “Oh, okay.” Interviewer: Well, a good time has its price. Now, how did you approach taking over a platoon? How did you deal with the men and so forth? Veteran: Basically, I dealt strictly with my platoon sergeant. I depended on the platoon sergeant. And it was recommended by most people, you know, pay attention to your platoon sergeant. If he’s got any experience, he probably knows more. And I…My platoons sergeant was Dennis Leverett, and he basically made sure I didn’t do anything dumb right away. After a while, I got, you know where I would do dumb things on my own but…You know. And that’s…And that’s pretty much their job: they are—they know all the platoons, squads, squad leaders. And so, I learned from him and that’s pretty much how things worked out. (00:48:22) Interviewer: Okay. Now, you would also have other people usually with you. You’d have at least a radio operator? Veteran: Yeah, I had a—my radio operator at that time was a guy by the name of Michaels. I think it is Thomas Michaels. And so, you know, I deal with him on a regular basis and…but most of the time, my dealings are with the company commander and my platoon sergeant. And I would talk to the squad leaders on occasion but more than likely, you know, the platoon sergeant and I would talk about what the company commander wanted us to do the next day and he would designate. “Alright, first squad, you are going to be the lead squad.” And if there was any �27 problems then I—he would come to me and say, “Okay, I got a problem here,” and then I would handle it. But it wasn’t—normally the guys all…they knew what they had to do. Interviewer: Okay. Now in the first weeks when you are out there, you said there wasn’t much going on, so you were just patrolling? Veteran: Yes, it was just doing the RIFs, you know, Recon In Force, checking the area. We would move our location a little bit. I don’t recall that we moved very much. But apparently, we went back and forth on this one hill. We’d be off of it and then we’d come back a day or two later. And it was—and I think that—I don’t know that we ever…we might have had some contact but not my platoon. Interviewer: Okay. So, the enemy is not really very visible. Did the platoons operate separately? Or…? Veteran: Yes. In most cases with our company, and I think with most of the companies around Ripcord, platoons operated 3-400 yards apart. Or meters I mean, as we talked in those days. You’d be that far apart. And so, that’s what we would be doing. And we just wouldn’t…you know, we wouldn’t see—I’d see the company commander, usually because I was the newest new guy, he usually kept his CP with my outfit. And that makes sense; he wants to make sure you are doing things right and he doesn’t want you to go off on a tangent yet, you know, he’ll let you do that later. So…but so there was usually the CP was with one platoon and then the other two platoons worked elsewhere. And then once in a while, we’d join up with another platoon for a while. But there was always a—seems like we almost never were we all together, except for resupply. (00:50:43) Interviewer: Okay. �28 Veteran: And even at resupply, it would be 1, maybe 2 platoons there and then they would leave, and the third platoon would come in and get resupplied, you know. We’d have all the stuff there, but the other ones would be providing security or, you know. Interviewer: And this is resupply from helicopters? Or from bringing things into LZs in the jungle? Veteran: Yeah, the helicopter—anybody who was in the Army in those days—when you get out of the Army, the Huey helicopter just…yeah, it would shake you because—and I have analyzed it in mine because in the 20 years later, I’d hear a Huey flying over and I’d be looking up, you know. And I know it’s a Huey, I can tell by the sound, but I got to look up and see the Huey. And now they don’t fly them very much; most of them are grounded. You know, the National Guard doesn’t have any; they have gone over to Blackhawks, which got a completely different sound. And…but you had this funny feeling in you, and it was sort of…it was a feeling of anticipation and also a little bit of dread. And the reason is because the helicopter was a major lifeline to the rear. And it brought out your food, it brought out the water, it brought out ammo, it brought out mail, which is just the best thing in the world that you can get out there. (00:52:05) Veteran: But when you came in—when it came in—the enemy knew where you were exactly. So, you might get mortared now or you might get attacked. It was like—it was a two-edged sword. It was really good to see them but then it was like oh man. And they also, you know, they med-evaced you if you got people injured. So even when you had a med-evac, you needed them here, but you hated the fact that they had to come because now the enemy knew for sure just your location. So, it was that kind of feel. It was a love/hate relationship for a long time. And like I said, 20, even 30 years later, I still had that feeling. And then two years ago down at Fort �29 Worth, we had a helic—a Huey. One of the guys owned one and he brought it to the reunion. It was like oh… Interviewer: Still don’t like the sound. Okay. Now, what was the battalion’s mission at this point in time? This is like May of 1970 now. What are they doing? What is Ripcord, for now, for the audience? Veteran: Well, Ripcord by this point was a fully established firebase. And the purpose of setting up the firebase is to provide fire power in the form of artillery to the Army units, the infantry units, around it. And also, they were able to fire over into the A Shau Valley with their 155s. and I don’t know but I suspect that the whole plan was to set up these bases and they were probably going to make a foray into the A Shau to get rid of some of the supplies that the NVA had been stocking over there. The whole purpose is to provide more security for the ARVN who were going to be taking over because we were now winding down. So, if we can reduce the amount of supplies that NVA had available to them, then the ARVN will have more breathing room. And so, you know, we had O’Riley just up a little to the north of us. And I don’t know if they had plans to open another firebase or not but this…We got the impression that this was what the colonel had in mind. It’s not like he said, “Oh, here is what we were doing.” Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Veteran: Somebody knew but I was a lieutenant. (00:54:15) Interviewer: Right. So, in hindsight, you got to do the research or talk to higher ups to figure out yes, this was supposed to be a jumping off point to actually launch the ARVN first division into the A Shau Valley and—which was a main kind of supply route as well as storage area to get from Laos and the Ho Chi Minh Trail into the lowland areas around Da �30 Nang, where there was…that was sort of a big target area for the enemy. So, if you mess them up, mess up their plans, their supplies, and…Okay, and then initially, at least, that seems to be working. You are there, they are not putting up much of a fight. When you were patrolling, did you start to find enemy supplies or indications of their presence? Veteran: They found some before I got there in April and found a couple caches in the area. And that was over near probably Hill 600, 605 I think, or somewhere in that area. So, they were finding some but when I went in May we weren’t finding anything. And then they finally decided, by the middle of May, they said, “Okay, we are going to combat assault you guys to a new location.” And so, I think it was the 13th of May they picked us all up and flew us into a new site. And there was—it was reported that it was a hot LZ, but they didn’t fire when I was there. But it fired up some, you know, maybe the first chopper but nothing got—nobody got hurt. And then from there, the next day we moved out. And the first platoon led, and the point man was killed. Bob Lowe was killed, and a couple other guys wounded. Wilcox was wounded and ended up having to go back to the rear. And we found a bunker, couple bunkers, there. We didn’t get any of the NVA, they just dropped off the side, which often was the case. And that was the first real contact that we had. (00:56:10) Veteran: And I was told to get my platoon up there and destroy the bunker. And you can’t see it. By the time I got there, the NVA had left but we weren’t sure, and I remembered I had a light anti-tank weapon, which is a collapsible Bazooka sort of thing. And I took that, and I fired it at the—what I thought was the bunker and it turned out it was. And I, you know, I look at it now if there was anybody there, I was dead. But there’s nobody there so it worked out fine. But and that’s what we did. And then the next day or so, we moved out. Again, we were moving in, patrolling in, platoon units. And the company commander was with my platoon and I think �31 about…I think it was on the 20th. And then we ran into a trail watcher. And he allowed 5 people to pass him. We didn’t see him. He might have been hiding behind a tree or something. Finally, the—I am the 5th guy, I get past him. There’s a wall of bamboo and then my radioman is coming behind me, the guy steps out, fires up, wounds my radioman. Gets him in the buttocks. Got the million-dollar wound; he got to go home. And the guy behind him was startled and didn’t fire. And but the—it was real steep. We are up on this part of the trail and its like this and the guy is over here. And as soon as he fired, he just dropped right down the side of the hill. We fired and of course it was all over his head and we never got anybody, and we called in an evacuation and med-evaced my radioman out and I got to assign somebody else to carry the radio. Carrying the radio was not necessarily a good job. Yeah, you didn’t have to walk point, but it was a target almost all the time. And if you were in front of or behind the radio, you were also a target usually because that meant you were a person of authority. And they didn’t know if you’d be in front of him or behind him. So…But the guy behind the radio in this case had an M-79 grenade launcher so they didn’t think he looked like the guy to shoot so they shot the radioman. (00:58:32) Interviewer: Yeah. Well, would they be able to spot the radio or tell the difference between that and a regular ruck? Veteran: Yeah, it’s—it was a big boxy contraption like that, and it had the antenna up. Yeah, you had that on your back. It’s…and you had the headset fit here and strapped on to your rucksack. So yeah, it’s pretty obvious. Interviewer: Okay. Now, let’s see—do things kind of—does the tempo kind of pick up a little bit? You get into late May, into June. You get more contact? �32 Veteran: Yeah, it was picking up at this point because some of the other units were pick, you know, running [into] things. And before we hit that trail watcher, we actually had seen a footprint in the trail. So, now we are starting to…and it was a fresh naked footprint. So, then we are like okay, something is going on here. Now, you understand that the area that we were in, there were no villages. There was…and there were no civilians. Everybody we saw, they were NVA. They had uniforms on, they had pith helmets and khaki shorts and shirts. So, you didn’t have—it was more like World War 2 in that respect. You didn’t have to worry about are you going to shoot the wrong guy? Well, yeah, you did have to worry but you know, it was less of a worry. It wasn’t like will this guy come get me later when he takes his pajamas off and puts his helmet on? You know. So, that was kind of good. And so, if we saw any sign of people, we knew it was the NVA. And but we didn’t see…We went through the rest of that month; I didn’t see anything. We did find a 50 caliber—51 caliber location where they had been. They set up to fire the 51. We found some more bunkers that we destroyed. So, we were finding things like that. We didn’t encounter anymore people though. I mean, my platoon didn’t. I don’t recall the others encountered anybody. And I…and you know, significantly what I remember about that period of time was when things were quiet, it was just really nice. (01:00:31) Veteran: You know, I was the biologist again. And when my troops found out I had a degree in biology, they were bringing me stuff all the time and I’d identify them. I’d say, “Well, maybe I can help you, but I didn’t study jungle biology.” But I saw—you know, I did identify some of the things that they brought me. And we also—we had centipedes and millipedes and they were poisonous. And you know, but they were beautiful: all sorts of colors on them. But you didn’t want to get bit because you could get a reaction that wasn’t nice, or you might. And of course, we always had leeches and earthworms that were a foot and a half long and they’d come out at �33 night and crawl over your hand and scare you to death. I saw one snake the whole time I was in the jungle. And I only saw 4 feet of it: I didn’t see the head. Interviewer: Alright. And at this point, what is the mood of the men in your unit? Morale level? Veteran: It seems pretty good. I mean, they’re—you know. They like—I would say that at this point, they are comfortable with the captain. They’re not sure about me. I’d only been there a couple weeks, you know. They’re—they never trust the new LTs. You know, you have to really do something to…and so far, I hadn’t done anything special. And they were, “Eh, I don’t know about this guy…” And I am—but the platoon sergeant kept them in line and, you know, kept them— “Don’t worry, he’ll be alright.” Interviewer: And in the meantime, you didn’t do anything stupid. Veteran: Yeah. And that’s… Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so we have gotten you pretty much through late May of 1970 here and maybe into early June. You say that you’re encountering—more things are going on now. There is also at a certain point a command change in your company. Now, how does that come about? (01:02:22) Veteran: Yeah. Well, it—after we finished going through that area after my radioman got shot, about two weeks after that we ended up on a hill for resupply. And Colonel Lucas sent out a Captain Hawkins to take over the company. Interviewer: And was he a captain at that point? �34 Veteran: He was captain. They promoted him early because his promotion date was supposed to be like the 6th of June but they—the colonel wanted him to take over the company. And part of this, you know, we suspected that he was another West Pointer like Lucas. So…But the two of them got along very well. and he had been doing, apparently, fine when he was working as a lieutenant with Charlie company and got to know Lucas, I think, in that period of time. And I am sure that Captain Hawkins probably was looking to get—I know he wanted to get a company and probably just said the sooner the better. What we heard later was that the, you know, the colonel thought that Burkhart was not aggressive enough and I could understand. I didn’t feel that he was aggressive. We had a good time. We were enjoying the for… as much as we could enjoy it. But we were, you know. We were doing what we were told. And…but that took place, I think it was the 31st of May. And then we were still—and we worked around that AO for another day. Burkart left and then on the 2nd we picked up and flew out. And now there is—this is a period that it is somewhat confusing. I have a memory of what happened on that period but then I have looked at the official log and they have us way someplace else. And I have to talk to more people but as far as I can remember, I was only on Ripcord one day, maybe two. But in my memory, after we got the new captain, they picked us up and they were going to—the assumption was— that’s what I remember—is we were going to have…we were doing a CA: Combat Assault. (01:04:44) Veteran: So, they were going to pick up and we were going to go someplace else. And that’s the way it always worked. And, you know, that’s my memory as an officer and I don’t think they would have said, “Oh, we are going to go to Ripcord,” unless we were going there. So anyway, we get up in the air and then instead of flying directly over to where we normally go, we are making this big leisurely circle up around 2 or 3000 feet up. And I think what was happening— �35 and I’ve never had a chance to ask Hawkins about it—is I think they were getting a change of orders. And I think at that point, Hawkins and Black Spade [Col. Lucas] were talking about where they wanted us and Black Spade said, “No, I”—I think what Black Spade—“I am going to need you down here.” And so, we made this big circle. And I remember that day very well because I am sitting on the outside edge of the helicopter. And you had your legs hanging over the side so you could get out fast. And well, we are making this big turn but we’re not going very fast so centripetal force is not there. And I am starting to slide off the…my butt is sliding; I am heading out. Well, I got nothing to grab onto. I look to my radioman, I said, “Grab my ruck.” And all he had to do was hold it and it stopped me. But I was already thinking about whether or not I could grab that strut as I fell past it. (01:06:13) Veteran: And if I didn’t, it was over. But that was—I remember that really well. and then we finally—they decide where we are going, and we landed on Ripcord. We got on Ripcord and then they said, we were told, “Alright, you guys are going to take over the security for Ripcord. And Delta company”—I think Delta company was there at the time—"and they’ll be going out into the field.” Okay. We had not done security for Ripcord yet. So, and usually they would rotate companies. So, that’s what I assumed we were doing. And because we were going to be there for a while, the—back at the rear—they set out a PX conex. It’s this big metal box with doors on it, you know, with was about 10 feet long and 8 feet wide. And they had it filled with junk food from the PX, and you could buy it from the PX. And then they had sodas and pretzels and chips and peanuts and all this stuff that you would like to buy but you don’t get back to the PX. But oh we—it was a change of pace. And we were going to be here on the firebase for the next, you know, usually it’s a month. So, hell yeah, we’ll do this. So, everybody goes to the— they buy all sorts of cokes and sodas and different things, takes it back to their bunkers. And we �36 are eating the stuff and we are fixing up the wire and everything, getting ready to take over full time. And then some time in the late afternoon, the word comes down that oh, change of orders: you guys are walking to Hill 1000 tomorrow. Well heck, we got all this stuff. We are not going to carry this stuff with us. You know, you don’t carry sodas in the field. You might carry—some guys might carry one but it’s terrible. It doesn’t quench your thirst; it just makes you thirstier. (01:08:07) Veteran: And you don’t carry pretzels and chips because you don’t have room for them and they’re too noisy, you know. So, and then they said, “The firebase is going on 50% alert tonight.” Because they had a—apparently, they had something from the intelligence that said that the NVA were planning an attack on a firebase and of course they didn’t know which one, but they thought it might be Ripcord. So, we have this, you know, alert. Well, when you have a 50% alert, you don’t get very—you know, you’re up for two hours, you sleep for two hours. Well, that doesn’t work very well. And so, you end up with not much sleep at all. And so, it is almost more of a party. Well, one of the guys in my platoon—and I thought it was Tommy Swain, but he said he didn’t remember it—but one of the guys in my platoon had a transistor radio and he was tuned in to the Armed Forces radio station and they are playing rock music at the time. Well, technically you are not supposed to have that in the field, but we don’t check too close. But as long as you are out of bunker line, nobody cares. And but we also had—every unit had what we called Micky Mouse radios. These were intra-platoon headsets. So, you had communications within the platoon that wouldn’t go over the other net. It was all line of sight. It worked very decently on the firebases. It was worth nothing in the jungle. It—a guy would be 10 feet away; if there’s a tree, you don’t hear—you can’t hear him. So anyway, Tommy is on, listening to the radio. So, he tunes the radio until the song starts, puts it on to his Micky Mouse radio, and he �37 broadcasts it to the rest of the guys, whoever could hear it. And then, when the song was over, he would then DJ the record and say, “Okay, that was so-and-so by Rolling Stones.” And then he would say, “And if anybody wants free chips or soda, come on down to Bunker 37. We are open all night.” (01:10:14) Veteran: And that was the kind of thing that we were doing. Well, that was…So, that’s where we end up. So, we were there on the 2nd and then the next morning we moved out. And then we walked over to Hill 1000. And that’s when we ran into the NVA. And had two guys that—my point was John Conrad and the other fellow, Little, and we hit the—they ran into some NVA sitting there in the trail eating. And John fired his gun, as the point man, and then I think it jammed or whatever, he just fired one shot. His point guy who was his side command was supposed to follow up. Well, it turns out Little was deathly afraid of the whole thing. And he just couldn’t. I mean, he bailed out. And so, when John didn’t get any backup, he bailed. So, then we pulled back. We called in some airstrikes in the area, you know, tried to clean them up. And what they did was they came closer to us. And of course, we couldn’t tell. And so, we had to go back in there. And my point team wouldn’t go back in because they almost never do when they run into something that doesn’t work out. So, I told the squad leader to get another point team. And he ended up getting…Wieland Norris came up and said, “You know, I’ll do point.” And so, he got point and then the platoon sergeant—or the squad leader—is Orville Kroger. Or wait, it’s Kuzar, Kuzar I think it is. I can’t keep track. Anyway, he takes the slack position. And so, we start back out. We didn’t get—we just barely—I don’t know, we might have moved 10 yards or so and then from the back, Norris’s squad leader comes, you know, hustling past me. And I remember grabbing him by the arm. I said, “Where you going?” he said, “I got to get Norris off of point.” (01:12:29) �38 Veteran: And so, I let him go and he walked past me. He goes past the assistant gunner, the machine gunner, gets up to Kuzar and then Kuzar turns around to see what’s going on and about the same time, Norris says to him, “I think I hear something,” which is not the proper response. The proper response is shoot. And with that, the NVA fired. They hit Norris; killed him outright. And a second guy was aiming at Kuzar and hit him in the shoulder because he had turned. He ended up with a shoulder wound instead of probably a heart wound. And then another bullet went through his cheek and that hit right under—grazed the chin of Wagnon, who was coming up there. And then, all hell breaks loose and then we end up going online. We push them off, we never—they fired and then they left. Interviewer: Now, did Norris have experience at point? Or why was the sergeant going after him? Veteran: He had only been with us for about a month or so and the sergeant didn’t—he didn’t want him on point at this point in his career. And when he found out that he had volunteered, and you know, I didn’t know. You know, these guys take care of this stuff. And so, that—I think he almost had a premonition. But once he heard that Norris was up there, he wanted to get him off and it was just too late. And so, we lost that guy. And then we had Cobras come back in later on. One of my guys, McVay, he got some wounds, minor fragments from that, so we medevaced him out. (01:14:21) Veteran: And then the next day, I think we medevaced…We took Norris’s body out and then the next day, or a couple days later, first platoon ran into somebody and a couple guys were killed in that. And I don’t really remember much about that; I was told about that later. It wasn’t my platoon so that’s what I remember. And then, by that time, it comes around to the 9th of June. And we are having a stand down by the battalion. The battalion would have a stand down where �39 they would get everybody into the rear, give them a break, refit, and then they also do some retraining, take you out to the range, sight your guns in again. You know, practice ambushes just in case you forgot. And it’s a—you know, it’s a chance in the rear. Guys get to clean up, get to actually take a shower. Get a hot meal that you didn’t cook over C-4. Stuff like that. And so, we went in on the 9th and we were there until the 15th. We came back out. We also went down, I think, guys say we went down to Eagle Beach. I did not go to Eagle Beach as far as I can remember. I think I would have recalled that. I suspect that they had me—I know I gave some classes when they came back. So, I was probably preparing for the class. Typical, what the officers often did. And that’s, you know. And then we went back out in the jungle on the 15th of June. And we were out in the—and I get up that morning to go out in the jungle, felt like I had bruised my arm. You know, my elbow was sore. I thought, hmm, must have hit it in the dark or something, you know. No big deal. Go out in the jungle, they drop us off. By noon time, my elbow had swelled way up. You know, and I—and it was tender just having the cloth…it hurt. And I couldn’t move it. (01:16:16) Veteran: The only way to get my rucksack off was to use the quick release. You know? So, I went to the medic and I said, “You know, what is this?” and he looked, and he said, “Oh, it looks like cellulitis. Let me give you some penicillin.” Cellulitis is just a bacterial infection. It comes when you get cuts and scratches. You can get it here in the states. And I got it over there. And so, and then that night I actually had nightmares. I was running a fever, it got bigger yet. So, the next morning they were—they said—well, they had changed again. New orders. Now we are going to go secure Firebase O’Reilly. And the ARVNs had been securing it. It was their artillery unit up there, but they had their own infantry around it. But now their infantry is going out in the field and so we were being sent there to secure O’Reilly. So, we got—choppers came in and I told the �40 captain, I said, “I’ve got to go back to the base hospital. They want me to go take this to look at.” So, I ended up going into Camp Evans. And you know…Well, I walk on into the medical building there. They said, “What’s your problem?” I showed them. They said, “Oh yeah, cellulitis.” They said, “Here.” They stick an IV in me with a liter of glucose and penicillin. And then, “Here, take this and walk out this door and on your left, you will find a barracks. Go find a bed. They should have a rack there. Hang this up.” And so, that’s what I did. And then every so often, they would come in to check the drip. And I went through 4 liters of penicillin, glucose, in about 3 days. And then the swelling went down. They said, “Yeah, if the swelling doesn’t come down after a while, we are going to have to lance it.” And it really hurt, so I wasn’t keen on them lancing it. (01:18:14) Veteran: But then I recovered. While I was there, I am talking to this sergeant who was in there for the same thing. And he said, “This is my second time in here.” And he says, “They will not send me back out in the field again.” Because the antibiotics they had for it at that time, it was penicillin and tetracycline. And if you had the penicillin, then they would give you the tetracycline, but they didn’t want you to get it again because the penicillin probably was not going to be as effective the second time around. So, they—if you got it the second time, they pulled you from the field and you had to keep clean. And that’s what happened to this guy. He had already been there. And I didn’t want a second round in particular. So, a week later I am back on O’Reilly with our guys. And then it’s a—and about that time, my platoon sergeant who had been, you know, dealing with me all the time, hederosed. He left; you know, he was going back to the states. And so, I had to select a new platoon sergeant. And I selected Johnny Brown. And he was a—just an E-5 staff buck sergeant—but…and I don’t remember the details. But he was the one I felt was going to be the best for the job. I had Wagnon and for some reason I did �41 not pick him. Again, I don’t know why. I don’t remember. But I picked John Brown. And so, and during that period of time, I had two black guys, Conrad and Little, and Little didn’t like me. He thought I was prejudiced because I made him work with some of the other guys. And I think he felt—they also felt that, but they said, “We’d like to be transferred to third platoon. They have a black platoon sergeant. We think everything would be better.” I said, “Oh, that’s fine. I got no problem with that. If you have a problem,” I said, “I would have taken care of it.” They said, “Well no, we just want to be there.” I said, “Okay.”. So, I contacted third platoon sergeant. (01:20:22) Veteran: I said, “Do you want these guys?” He said, “Oh yeah.” So, he took them. And I talked to him some weeks later. He said, “You didn’t do me any favor with the one guy, did you?” I said, “Well, I didn’t say it was a favor.” I said, “One of them,” I said—and this guy, Little, he was just…There’s no doubt in my mind he didn’t belong in the field. He had a real problem with—he was afraid, and that’s understandable. I—you know. Some people can control their fear, others, you know…But whenever things happened, he would get as far away from the shooting as he could. And I understand that, you know. I wanted to but I didn’t, you know, because my job came first. But some people just can’t do that. It’s not that—I never felt that he was bad; he just couldn’t handle it. That happens. So, and eventually, they got him out of the field, but he had to get wounded to get out of the field. So… Interviewer: Alright. Now, did having Hawkins come in as company commander kind of change the way you operated? Veteran: It didn’t to any great degree. We were still operating as single units, single platoons. He was running a few more ambushes than we had run before. But it hadn’t changed right away. And I think Hawkins was just feeling out things. He got a feel for things in that little brief time in �42 June before we went on stand down. And then he was getting a better feel for everybody as we worked on O’Reilly. And that was—when you are on a firebase, it’s a real pain in the neck. It’s hot. You got no sunshine. It hits 120 in the sun all the time. And you are working to keep up the wire. You are checking claymores and all this stuff, and you are continually up there doing stuff. You are running recons out into the jungle and coming back, making sure the NVA aren’t scooting up around you and stuff like that. (01:22:24) Veteran: So, it was—I never liked working it. I really was much more comfortable in the jungle. Even though it was humid, it felt better because I was in the shade. It’d be 95 in the shade with 95 humidity, but it was better. It’s all relative. And also, I felt I had more control of what’s going to happen to me when I was in the jungle, even though that was not really true. But on the firebase, you were like on the target. They know where you are. And we didn’t like them to know where we were. We couldn’t help it, though. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were there—with O’Reilly, you said there was a Vietnamese artillery unit there. So, what impression did you have of them? Veteran: I didn’t have much dealings with them but they work on a whole different level. You know, they are more basic. They would have chickens that they would be slaughtering for—to eat. And they tended to…you had to watch your stuff. They tended to latch on to anything that wasn’t watched closely. So, they would steal your C-rations if they could get them. So, you just sort of, you know, kept them at arm’s length. We had a couple Vietnamese working with us. We had our interpreter, Long. He was an ARVN. That’s the army of Vietnam. Staff sergeant. He was very good; everybody liked him. We would buy rice from him. He would go home once a month and pick up these bags of minerals. Vietnamese mineral rice is what we called it. And he’d—you know, a little bag he would sell to us for 25 cents a bag. And we would, you know, we used that �43 to supplement the C-rations, to make it taste better. And I was…I’d walk through forest and part of the jungle and I’d have a bag of that. I’d be chewing on it. You know, it would be raw. But you had enough saliva, then I could—I wouldn’t get hungry. And Wilcox said, “Yeah,” he says, “after you told me about that,” he said, “I started doing the same thing.” He said, “That was really a pretty good idea.” (01:24:23) Veteran: But you know, we just did things like that. But a lot of guys would buy the rice. And Long was talking about his brother. His brother had a cleft palate, and he was saving the money so he could have the operation done to cure him. You now? So anyway, we liked the guy. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, did you also have a Kit Carson Scout with you? Veteran: We had Kit Carson Scouts. Bob Counts in my platoon, had his own Kit Carson Scout. And usually, every platoon had a Kit Carson Scout. Some of them were good, some of them were…They didn’t like the war before, they don’t like it now. So, you know, it—most of the guys did not have a great deal of trust in the Kit Carsons. You know… Interviewer: Okay. And what was a Kit Carson Scout? Veteran: The Kit Carson, for anybody who had never seen them, these were NVA soldiers who had come over to our side. We called them Chieu Hoi, open arms. And they would Chieu Hoi and then the agreement was they Chieu Hoi, alright, we would like to make you a Scout. And if you become a Scout, you help lead us. You know, keep us out of trouble when, you know, the NVA are around. You will see signs and stuff like this and explain it to us. And then as a result, you get paid this much money. And we—and I don’t know what they were paying but from the Vietnamese point of view, it was a lot of money. So, you know, it was pretty enticing for these guys. And some of them had relatives in the south. And they, you know, they would do that. And �44 that’s what we used them. So, you always had one guy in the unit who was a handler. He was taught Vietnamese, and he would deal with the guy. And so, when his Scout went back to the rear, which they’d go back once a month, he went with him because that was his job. So, he had to keep track of him. And he might go down to the village, but he’d be there when he came back so that everybody would know that’s my scout. And then he’d come back out. (01:26:22) Veteran: As a result of that, a couple times when we got shot at, Bob Counts wasn’t there because his scout had to go back. So, as an interpreter and a scout handler, that’s really good because you get to the rear a lot more than the other guys do. Of course, you have to—if your scout is going up at point, you’re the side man so…It doesn’t—it’s not always perfect. But every job is that way. Interviewer: Alright. Now, as we get at the end of June, beginning of July, now things around Ripcord, or at Ripcord, started to heat up. And so, what are your experiences like at that point? Veteran: Well, at that time, I remember when one of—well, Charlie company got hit, which I think was the 2nd of July. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And we, you know, we are a couple—five kilometers away, maybe six or seven from where they are. And we heard…You know, of course we are doing radio and we are running our security at night and everything. And then we are still up on O’Reilly. And then we heard that they were under fire. And we could see. You know, it’s four or five o’clock in the morning. We could see the shooting going on way out there, because we are on a hill and we are looking down. And we were monitoring what was going on on the radio. And you know, and it was like �45 oh, this is not good. And my thought was, when I heard all this, I heard that they lost eight people and had all these wounded, I said, “Well, I would bet money that we are going to take their place.” Because I thought about it. I said, “It would make sense to bring them to O’Reilly, but then get refitted, get new people, and send us out there because we are all, you know, we have been here.” But that’s not what the colonel did. The colonel got a new captain, brought in Wilcox, and gave him new men, and then sent him out back into the jungle, which I…Oooh…It’s not the way I would have done it, but I understand his concept. You know, don’t want the guys to get gun shy, and just keep them going. But…whew… (01:28:29) Veteran: That’s—you have lost your company commander; you have lost a bunch of guys. And all of a sudden, now you got all these new guys, you’re going back in the jungle right away? Oh man. To me, that’s kind of…There was an opportunity to do something, and I thought they would have but they got one day off and then they are back out there. So…And then, it wasn’t too long before they’re, you know, then we hear about them fighting up on Hill 1000, helping Delta company. And so, it’s like—so, we are hearing stuff, and we are up and over on O’Reilly. Nothing going on here. You know, the ARVN are firing some rounds here and there, but you know, we are fine. And the NVA had attacked O’Reilly a month before we got there. And they had—and O’Reilly was extremely steep. I mean, it was almost like that. I mean, if you dropped—if your helmet came off, it went a long way. And the ARVN—the NVA had tried to do a sapper attack. They were in the wire and—when they were discovered. And the ARVN killed like 70-80 people. They were just throwing grenades down at them. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, you know? I think that maybe two ARVNs were killed. So, they had really decimated them. So, no matter where we—you know—this time there is nobody up there. Well, but I know that I said, “This can’t last. We are going to be going someplace.” And then finally, �46 the 10th of July they said, “Okay, we are going to go. We are taking you out towards Hill 805.” And they combat assaulted out there and dropped us into the jungle. (01:30:11) Veteran: And what was really scary about that that we got off the helicopter, we got warmed up, and we could hear shooting in all sorts of directions. It wasn’t aimed at us. Now, we didn’t—we never ever were close enough to other units that we were getting shot at. But here we are, we could hear other guys shooting. We said, “Oh, this is scary.” Because, you know, there was lots of big—they are not just shooting for fun. They are shooting because there is NVA there. So, you know. And they might have been 5-600 meters away, but it was still…but it made us really tense. Interviewer: Yeah. But there was a company from another battalion too, 501 I think, that was on top of 805 and— Veteran: Well, not yet. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, but they landed around the same time that you did. Veteran: They were landing about the same time. And then, and so we wandered. We positioned ourself and then finally on the 12th…I believe it was the 12th of July, we assaulted Hill 805 with Delta 2501. And they came one side, we came from the other. And you know, they had prepped it with the artillery, and we bombed it. And they had dropped tear gas on it. Because I remember smelling the tear gas. It wasn’t very strong by the time we got there but there was nobody there. It was very nice; just the way we would like it, you know. And so, we set up and Delta company was supposed to be, you know, they had most of the hill. We had a little saddle. And that night, it might have been…I am not sure if that was when—it might have been that evening or it was sometime during the day. Jim Noll was wounded with his radioman, Brady. Because they were �47 medevaced out. And I think that might have been at night, but they got wounded somewhere in that period of time. (01:32:07) Veteran: But that night, the NVA attacked Delta company. And apparently, they didn’t know that we were on their flank. And so, once things started, then Hawkins said, “Alright, open fire. Just keep it down there.” We were raking their flank. And we took no casualties at all in our unit because they weren’t planning for us to be there. And I have learned years later that the NVA, before they make an attack, they are very particular about getting everything just right. And apparently, even—you don’t vary from that. If the boss said, “Everybody, attack this way,” everybody attacks this way. You get hit from the side? Don’t worry about it, that’s not your problem. And that’s the way they did stuff. I mean, I didn’t know that then, I learned it years later. But a number of officers who had dealt with them said, “Yeah, that’s how they do things.” And so anyway, they made their assault, and we rake them on the sides. And they took some casualties up there on the 805, but overall didn’t have too many. Mostly wounded. And I, you know, I was thinking the next morning---they said, “Okay, now Alpha company, you guys are going down in the valley.” And so, we were thinking oh, good. You know? And I—looking for whatever we could find. You know, somebody said, “Oh, we are supposed to be finding the gravesites and the…” It doesn’t matter; we are going to be looking for whatever. So, we head out and again we are working as separate platoons. And most of the time, the CP was with first platoon because this time he’s the one who had come over to take over first platoon. Wilcox had been promoted and moved on to Charlie company. So, but he’s a—was another West Pointer who was anxious to get in there. And they got him. Hawkins brought him in. (01:34:09) Veteran: And so…But he, myself, and Jim Noll were the platoon leaders. And we had a new foreign observer, an officer. That was Steve Olson. And he was working with his RTO, Floyd �48 Alexander. And but, so CP was working with first platoon a lot, sometimes the third platoon because third platoon had lost their platoon leader. And their platoon sergeant—I don’t think Hawkins trusted as well. he was relatively new. He hadn’t been there a long time. So, Hawkins was—and that’s pretty typical of what they would do. And so, we were—during that period of time—we were—my guys were getting—they were all nervous. And I, you know, I had maybe 20 guys in the field. There weren’t very many. And we would—we got to be really quiet. Platoons are notoriously noisy. Ask the recon guys. Recon guys hated companies, line companies, because they are too many people, and they make two much noise. But we were so tight and so frightened about oh, we might run into something; let’s keep quiet. Maybe they won’t know where we are. And so, and we were still looking for them, but we wanted to find them before they found us. And so, we were moving around, and we found some bunkers. I managed to gas my—some of my guys—while we are gassing the bunkers. And everybody told me never to touch CS again. But we did—we never ran into any NVA. So, and then finally, I think after a couple days of doing that, we ended up with a CP. And when that happened, oh man. All I’d hear was complaints from my troops about when are we going to get rid of the CP? They are too noisy! You know, the NVAs are going to find us. So, but we never did get rid of the CP because then we ended up drawing in with somebody else. (01:36:10) Veteran: And…but before that had happened, there was one period of time when we were still working separately. Again, my guys were very nervous. And I only had—I had so few people. I only had really two squads. So, this squad would walk point today, second squad walks it tomorrow. So, it was this—I think the second squads turn to walk point. And the sergeant comes to me, he says, “They won’t walk—nobody wants to walk point.” And I said, “What do you mean nobody wants to walk point?” “Well, they don’t want to. It’s too scary out there.” I said, �49 “Well, we can’t stay here. We are going to have to go.” I said, “I can’t have first squad do it. They just did, they just walked point yesterday. They did their day. It’s your turn.” “Well, I can’t get anybody to walk it.” I said, “Well, screw this.” So, I figured well…I at this point was like what do I do? Give a direct order? And if they refuse the direct order, then what am I going to do? Going to get rid of them? Does that mean I would have to call in a helicopter? I ain’t doing that because I didn’t want a helicopter showing off our position even anymore. And I didn’t feel that anyone—I didn’t want to challenge them on this. So, I said, “Alright. Hell, I’ll walk point.” So, I grabbed my radioman. I said, “Let’s go.” And we start out. And I—it wasn’t too long before they come up and the second squad comes up and says, “Get off the point. We got somebody to walk point.” So, they walked point. And later that night, I heard from…I don’t know who, somebody told me. I always thought it was Tommy Swain. Tommy says, “No, I didn’t talk to you.” But he didn’t even remember me so it’s possible that he did. But somebody told me, he said, “You know LT, you know why they walked point?” (01:38:08) Interviewer: Alright, so you were talking about this business about walking point and you’re taking it over. Veteran: Yep. So, one guy says…he says, “LT, you know why they didn’t want you to walk point?” I said, “I didn’t think about it.” I said, “I just—I got somebody to walk point.” He said, “Well, it’s not that you’re really popular or anything. It’s just that nobody wanted the responsibility of running the platoon if you got killed.” And I thought, years later, I think about that. It made good sense. The platoon sergeant was brown. He had only been platoon sergeant for a few weeks now. The guys didn’t have any experience being behind him as platoon sergeant. I think if Leverett had been there, they’d have said, “Go ahead, LT.” you know? But I think that was part of it. And the other ones looked at it and said, “I don’t want to be in charge of this �50 outfit.” You know, and if he gets killed, then I got to make the decisions. So, this…it’s interesting, but it worked. And I never had the problem again. But I wasn’t really happy being on point, but I didn’t see another way around it, other than…And if you don’t—and I felt that if I didn’t do what they are willing to do, you know, then…you know, they are not going to have any faith in me at all. And so, and then we ended up with the CP. And by this time, you know, finally it’s…I think it was about…it was the 18th of July. We were supposed to get a resupply. And so, we are on an LZ and the LZ is maybe—it’s about one and a half, two kilometers from Ripcord. And we can actually see Ripcord from where we are. We are standing there, waiting for the helicopters to come in, you know. And as we are standing there, we see this chinook coming into Ripcord, and we hear—in remember hearing the 51-caliber machine gun fire. And the next thing I know, you see the chinook and the blades go out of sync as it got hit in the engine. And then it nosedived or came down on a rear end, I don’t recall, but it crashed into the firebase. (01:40:16) Veteran: And as it turns out, it was carrying fuel and it landed on the ammo dump, the 105 ammo dump. And it went also where the fuel—the other fuel bladders were. And it just…well you know, it looked just—you see this big explosion. A mushroom cloud goes up and we are looking, just thinking oh man, there’s got to be all sorts of people getting killed up there. You know? And my first thought, after thinking about that, man, I hope they didn’t have the mail on that helicopter. You can see where your priorities are when you are out in the jungle. It’s I hope they don’t get killed but there better not be any mail on there because it would get burned up. Now, as it turns out, one man was killed. One of the guys on the helicopter got trapped underneath and they weren’t able to get him out. And it took longer than it seemed to us. It took maybe 30 seconds. And then later on that day, our resupply helicopter came in and a couple of the guys that we had were going back for R and R, so they hopped on. And then, we had either 5 �51 or 6 guys get off that helicopter. And I know that…and I have tracked down 4 of the 5 and I know that they were new guys for our unit. And so, and I got—at least two of them were for me. One was Gary Foster and the other was Don Keifer. And they…and these guys were cherries. This is their first day in the jungle. Well, they were flying by the firebase and it’s blowing up. You know? And then they join us in the jungle. And the next day, they got everybody situated and the next day, we are walking down the trail and we stop because I had taken a wrong turn. We were going to tie up with the first platoon, if I remember. (01:42:11) Veteran: And of course, we are waiting until I get turned around, you know, 2 NVA walk up on Captain Hawkins and his RTO. And they were just—walking along, had their guns in a sling. They didn’t know we were there. And Hawkins looks, holy mackerel! Looks at his radioman. His radioman can’t get his gun out fast enough. Hawkins got his gun and shot them both, killed them. And that was…so, for the guys that had their first day in, these new guys, the first day they see the firebase blow up. Their second day, we are killing NVA right away. And every day after that we ran into NVA. And that’s the experience that these guys had. Now so, the next day was the—that was the 19th—the 20th, we found the commo line down in the valley and we tapped into it and we started listening to what they were saying. We found out it was, I believe, between the regimental headquarters and their mortar section. And they were directing fire onto Ripcord. And they said, “Well, if—when you tap into it, it drops in volume.” So, they were going to—they said, “Well, there must be a break in the line, so they are sending teams out to check for us.” So, the first platoon was set up with ambushes on both ends. And they sprung one ambush and wounded some NVA that ran off into the jungle. And then, while we were waiting there, we were picking up water down by the stream and one of my guys, Miller, he looks down and he sees an NVA come out on a rock, scouting us. And he kills him with his M-79. Plays him out. �52 And so then, that was the kind of stuff that was going on, you know. And then we finally get back. You know, it got late, and the captain said, “Alright, we are just going to go back to where we were last night,” which is unusual, but we had to. And so, and then the next morning, I think third platoon beads off and they run into two NVA coming up the trail. (01:44:11) Veteran: And they fired them up; they wounded one and killed one. And then we’d go looking for the body of the NVA that we had left the day before and it had been removed and was gone. And so, we checked these guys and then we search the area, looking for more NVA. Didn’t find any. Head up. You know, this is the 21st. We head up to new NDP and Chuck waited until the last minute to leave, so it was almost dark. And they scouted a place to go. Well, I guess it’s probably maybe 500 meters away. And then, I was tailing Charlie at the time. We had—we were the last platoon, and I left Walker, Russ Walker, and a Robert Janelle—who we called Sparky— we left them behind with a radio and they were to look for any trail watchers that might be following us. And then we went—we were only 100 yards from them. And then it wasn’t much more than a half hour; all of a sudden, they fire up and they killed one NVA and wounded another who ran off. And when they searched the body, they found that the guy had a map of positions on Ripcord. He had been a recon sergeant who was checking Ripcord in preparation for an attack on Ripcord. And I don’t know if he delivered his message or not but, you know, or maybe he was going to be scouting. But he was doing something, but he never made it. And so, somebody booby trapped the body, you know, so in case the—when the NVA come to pick him up, we’ll get a few more. They put, you know a hand grenade underneath it and stuff like that. And then end up—we set up for the night. And around 11 o’clock that night, we heard the…an explosion down by that area. So, we know that they picked up he body. If they were smart, they �53 would have used grappling hooks and pulled the body and then waited a while. But we don’t know what they did. We liked to antagonize them like they antagonized us. So… (01:46:13) Veteran: But so, we spent the night there on this hill. And the next morning was the 22nd. The plan was…the plan that I was told, and this is what I remember, and we were going to leave that hill, go to the southeast to—down the valley and up this other side, to this LZ. And then we were supposed to get resupplied. That’s what I remember from that day because this was my birthday. I was thinking oooh, resupply. Maybe my wife planned it enough that she could send a package in time for me to get it. You never know. Maybe I will get a package from home. Always looking for mail. So, that’s what we were—I thought we were going to do. And I think that was the original plan. But what happened is that the first platoon is headed out first thing, went down into the valley. And then later on, they were called, told to come back. Apparently, and I don’t remember this, but the other people told me that they ran in—they got twisted around and actually fired at each other for a little bit. Nobody got hurt but, you know, and then they got reorganized. But it was my impression that I remembered was that they went down, and they were able to just get to the other LZ and then Hawkins got word from the colonel he didn’t want us to go over there, he wanted us to go north. So, we had to wait for first platoon to get back. And then first platoon came back. By this time, we had been on this hill for, you know, it’s almost one o’clock. About one o’clock now. And rule: you are off of there by nine because the NVA don’t have enough time to set up an attack. Now, we had smelled NVA in the morning. And we sent riffs out, but nobody saw anything positive. Somebody said that they thought they saw a hand. You know, but you know that kind of thing. (01:48:13) Veteran: Well, we had picked up so much NVA equipment, we thought the odor was coming from that. And the NVA smelled different than GIs because their diet is more fish. Ours is beef �54 and chicken, so we have a different odor. We didn’t use deodorant, but we all smelled the same badly. So, if you are—if the wind is right, you can smell them. And I am sure they could smell us. And we smelled them but hey, we didn’t see anything on the riffs, and you know, I think they were further away than the riffs were going. And they moved in gradually. And at any rate, when first platoon got back, then Chuck said, “Okay,” that’s Captain Hawkins, he said, “Alright Lee, take your platoon and head north,” because we were set up and it was the right place to go. So, we headed out to the north. And by now it is close to 1:30. We got 100-175 meters away from the platoon, from the company. And we are strung out. I had 16 guys with me. Two of them were cherries and the rest had been out there a while. And we got less than 200 meters away from the company, my point man runs into an NVA unit setting up a mortar and a trap. Well, you don’t run into a mortar unit because they are behind all the troops. So, I assume what had happened, and I found this out just from years later, the fact that the NVA set up, and they are told to do this, and if you—and if something gets tosses in the works, they don’t know how to handle it. Whereas if—and I think we walked up on them. They heard us coming and they moved aside and let us come through. And then after we got passed, they closed it up because they were told you are going to attack with one of the—after the mortars go off, go up the hill. (01:50:20) Veteran: So, we were behind them, but we don’t know it. We run into this mortar squad. McVay is my point man. He sees him; he comes back, he says, “There is somebody up there.” I said, “What do you mean there is somebody up there? Why didn’t you shoot?” “Oh well, I thought it might have been ours.” And I said, “Oh, shoot.” He said, “Alright.” So, I got a new—I got two guys to go up. It’s Janelle and Walker. They worked together a lot. So, they go up and they run into the NVA and we are right behind them. The NVA open fire with their—they blow down a— open up with machine guns, AKs, and they fire and RPG—blow this tree down in front of us. �55 You know, and my radioman gets shot in the leg, breaks his leg. I think it broke his leg, but anyway, he wasn’t able to walk. So, we are trying to get him out of there. Drop—lose his rucksack and that’s where his radio is, but we are getting so much fire nobody wants to get the radio, so I shoot the radio up so it wouldn’t get into enemy hands. We go back—we drop back 10 yards or so. Meantime, the mortars are going off, they are hitting the company with tear gas and explosives, and they are actually making an assault. The NVA are making an assault right behind the mortars. Now, I am told about this later because I heard the mortars going off, but they weren’t hitting me because we were too close to them. And about that same time, the NVA that had let us through then started shooting at us. They figured once the shooting starts, they can shoot anywhere. And Gary Foster, who was one of the cherries, he’s at the end. He’s an E-6. He’s busy. He sees an NVA coming down the trail. He throws a gun up: pew! Drops him. (01:52:15) Veteran: And he says, “That’s the only NVA I saw full time.” He said, “After that, they all went behind trees, and a guy behind a tree is shooting at us.” He said, “I’d throw a grenade and they wouldn’t shoot anymore. Then there would be another one,” he said, “I’d throw a grenade.” He threw a dozen grenades and every time he threw one, they quit shooting. He says, “Dead? I don’t know. I don’t care.” He says, “They quit shooting.” And he got hit with satchel charges. One blew his shirt off. Blew out both his eardrums. He had a second degree burn on his left shoulder. He had multiple shrapnel wounds. My platoon sergeant who is back there with him takes it on the opening volley, takes a bullet through the face. Goes in the—goes in once—in think the mouth or something. Went in through the mouth, goes out part of his tongue and his jaw, goes out the side of the other cheek. Didn’t kill him. Didn’t hit anything vital but he couldn’t do anything but keep his head down, so he didn’t choke on his own blood. So, he was out of �56 everything. His radioman, Marty, got hit with shrapnel. He lost his radio. We condensed and it took a while for those guys to join up with us. And I think…I don’t know if Marty got back there with him right away or if it had been later, but Marty went back there, he patched up the— Interviewer: That’s Martin Glennon, the medic? Veteran: Yeah, Marty. As soon as he could. And then they—I remember them hollering as they came in so we wouldn’t shoot them and separate them from us. And so, we got into a condensed perimeter. And I doubt if the perimeter was more than 4 meters wide, 10 meters long. Something—maybe 12 meters long. And it was…but they were only, you know, there was 17 of us in there. And I was in the—pretty much in the middle, directing and just checking the, you know, making sure everybody is down. They are firing at movement. They don’t see anybody. We can’t see maybe 5 meters. I mean, the jungle is so thick. But you’d see bushes move, so you would shoot there. (01:54:19) Veteran: And because we are laying down, they are shooting back at us, but they are shooting over us. And it was stable like that. We are shooting them. And apparently somewhere in that period of time, I don’t know exactly when it happened, one of the—my NCOs, Tom Shultz, got—he had been really nervous for a couple days and he had bad feelings about this whole thing. And something happened. Somebody said they were next to him and a grenade went off or a satchel charge and he lost his glasses. And they said he disappeared. And we don’t know if he got blown away or if he moved and got killed, but we found his body after the battle up towards the company. He may have panicked and tried to get to the company. We don’t know what happened to him. It’s any number of scenarios that could have happened. But at any rate, he didn’t survive. But I had—and then…but I had no radio. My third radio was due for backlog because it wasn’t working. So, I don’t have contact with Hawkins, my company commander. �57 And he’s not coming to help us because I heard all the shooting going on up there. I figured well he’s got his own business. So, I pretty much figured okay, we are on our own here. Okay. Yeah. You’re going to do…at one point, the Martin Glen, the medic, came to me. “LT, what are we going to do? We got to get out of here.” And I said, “We got no place to go.” I said, “They are all around us.” And I said, “There’s not as many over there down by the valley,” I said, “but I am not going into the low ground.” I said, “We won’t make it.” I said, “We got guys here that can’t move to quickly.” I said, “We are not going to go down there.” I said, “All I can see is we need to stay where we are right now.” (01:56:05) Veteran: “Oh, I don’t think that’s good.” I said, “I know. It isn’t good but it is all we can do.” And that was the decision we made. It turns out it was probably the best decision I could have made, at least for surviving at that point. And at some point, after we had, you know, gone through this, there was one point when apparently the NVA were making a concerted effort to get us, wipe us out, because all of a sudden, they were throwing satchel charge after satchel charge, grenades, and lot of shooting. And it was coming from all sides. At that point, I happened to be up on my knees and a grenade goes off 10 feet away, a chicomm grenade. Well, they are not very good grenades, luckily, and they don’t break up in lots of little pieces. But I got hit on the thigh and the shoulder and the arm but nothing serious. A little more than skin deep, you know. But another piece of that shrapnel hit Galindo, my machine gunner. You know, lodged in his cheek, you know. And he ended up with tunnel vision from that injury. But and somebody says that the other part of that hit Sparky Janelle and he died from it. And I don’t know if that was what hit him or…But you know, that’s the way those things are. You could—and he was further away. And it just…you don’t know. One of the things I have learned is that when the shooting starts, everything is chaotic and, you know, all the bets go out the window. It’s just luck �58 of the draw. Things happen but you may do something completely right and get killed, do something completely wrong and survive because there is so much stuff flying around, you don’t know what is going to happen. Your best bet is to stay low and that won’t guarantee anything either. Interviewer: Okay, so what enables you guys to survive that attack? Veteran: Well, we kept shooting at them. You know, we were—the guys were pretty good controlling their shooting and they kept shooting. And this lasted—and I don’t know how long this attack lasted. Probably 5 minutes, 10 minutes. I don’t know. You know, I wasn’t checking my watch. But you know, and they were so close to us that their satchel charges were going past us. You know, their hand grenades were going both sides. They were going back and forth. They might have hurt their own guys as much. (01:58:21) Veteran: But eventually, they—it just came to—it didn’t completely stop but it did slow down. And I heard later that the guys in the rear monitoring the NVA broadcasts said that one NVA unit said, “We have got this group, you know, surrounded. We are going to finish them off.” And that may have been us they were talking about. It could have been the company. But they said that person didn’t broadcast anymore. So, whoever it was didn’t do well. And so, meantime, my radioman—even though he was wounded, finally got the other radio operating. And that was when I finally made contact with Hawkins. And I don’t know…I think it was an hour after the battle started. I don’t know. Something like that. I made contact with Hawkins and I remember he said, “You know, we are in the clear.” You are not supposed to talk about how you are doing in the clear, but it was necessary for him to know. And I said—he says, “How…you know, what are your casualties?” I said, “I have lost a pair.” And he said he had lost a basketball team, that he knew of. And he said, “Okay.” He says, you know, “I know where you are now.” So, he could �59 deploy the artillery and the Cobras and everything else better. And then he proceeded to do more of that. In the mean—and they had been—what he had been doing up there I have been told that they were doing all sorts of fighting and trying to reorganize. They had been really disorganized. My unit was fortunate because we all stayed together. The other groups got disarrayed. It took them a while to get back to fighting. And so, there was lots going on. But I am not going to really talk about what they were doing because it’s really second, third hand. (02:00:16) Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Veteran: But eventually—so we had Cobras coming in and then finally Chuck said, “Okay, we got a jet coming in. We are going to drop some 250-pound bombs. Now, keep everybody down.” So, I tell everybody to get down. And well, I don’t remember him saying this is going to be really close. In fact, I thought accidentally it was really close. And then…but maybe he said it was going to be close. I don’t remember. But all in know is it was really close. And as I recall, there were two bombs. One of them landed maybe 75 meters from us. These 250-pound bombs are supposed to be 200 meters away, you know, for safety purposes. And the other one is—I don’t know if anybody could ever verify it but I—the other one did not go off. And I remember seeing it when we got back to the company later that day. Just, you know, sticking in the ground. But maybe—you know, the memory is not good all the time. But the one went off. I remember; that was no doubt about that. And when it went off, I mean, the skies turned black. The sun was obliterated for a bit. And all the—every tree between us and the bomb that was more than 8 feet high was cut down. I mean, it—and as you got closer to the bomb, there was less and less. So, I mean it—all of a sudden, we could see. We could see some places 30 meters now because the bomb had cleared everything. And it was where most of the NVA had been operating out of. and that’s where they were, you know, launching their attacks after they regrouped. And so, they �60 really got decimated with that. And then, it was only after that—I don’t know, it was 10-15 minutes after that—I am up on my knees again. I don’t know what the hell I am thinking. (02:02:20) Veteran: I look back as a smarter guy in old age. I am thinking jeez, stop that shit. So, I am up on my knees and I am looking, and I see this NVA soldier coming. A jet is coming over and he is running down the trail towards us carrying an RPD, which is a machine gun. And so, I tell the guys, “Hey! Shoot that guy!” Well, they are all laying down. They can’t see him. Well, I thought well I guess I got to shoot him. So, I throw my gun up and I start shooting at him. Well, I am scared. And I see the bullets hitting the bushes and trees to the left and to the right of him, and he stops you know, and he’s looking this way and that way. And he doesn’t—he’s scared too. And I am firing single shot: pump, pump, pump. And I am thinking to myself: you’ve got to aim. But I am scared, you know. I don’t want to stop because I don’t want him to shoot at me. And then I run out of bullets 18 rounds later, then he runs off into the bushes, because he is just as scared as I am. As far as I know, I didn’t touch him. I may have wounded him, but I don’t think I did. And he runs off into the bushes. I get a Cobra online and send the Cobra after him. Interviewer: Alright. So, we have gotten you through sort of the climax of the battle itself on July 22nd. But—so the enemy—the airstrikes have brought in. The company is connected with itself. But you are still out there in the field at that point? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, now what happens? Veteran: Well, it’s the same. After we had that incident with the NVA, then we were able to— probably another hour from that, we joined up with the rest of the company. And so, we �61 proceeded to—now, the first thing we started doing: it was just getting—it was starting to get dark. And we would proceed to check all the rucksacks, looking for water because by this point, nobody had water. (02:04:18) Veteran: And if you lost your rucksack, there might be water in it, but you had to find it. So, and I remember getting a drink of water. It was just the best water I have ever tasted in my life. Earlier in the day, I fully expected not to survive the day. And it was only after getting radio contact with the company that I thought there was a chance. So, then I finally got some water, so it was wonderful. We—and we, you know, distributed the water to the wounded and everybody. And then we started setting up the perimeter for the night because we assumed that we were going to be hit again that night. And we spent, you know, at that point, we had at least 12 or 14 people who were seriously wounded. And then we had—we had lost—the company had lost about 12-14 people altogether. And all but 6 people were wounded. One of the guys—two of the guys in my platoon made it through the battle without being wounded. One of them got hit with a piece of the flare ring at night and got a gash on his head. So, he ended up getting wounded anyway, but a different way. But so, we set up and we fully expected to spend the night fighting the NVA. And we tried to dig in but the—it was very difficult because you had a lot of big trees and lots of roots. And—just—you’d hunker down some place and waited. And they had flare ships flying around all night long, waiting for the attack. And they were dropping flares continuously. There was no attack. In the meantime, the battalion was firing interdiction rounds on artillery in places where we thought the NVA were or where they might be traveling to to get—come up there. So, they were hitting the valleys and the streams based on the information they had. And a lot of that probably was the reason the NVA were unable to do anything. The other thing is they lost a lot of people in the battle with us. (02:06:22) �62 Veteran: We lost a lot of people for our—on our end—but they lost apparently even more. And they were unable to successfully keep the pressure up. They didn’t have the people anymore. So, I remember that night it was—I tried to stay awake, you know. And it wasn’t like it was 50% guard. There was nobody else to guard with you. It was like you got the radio. You assign somebody to hang on there on the radio with you. You both pretty much kept your eyes open. And finally, just before daylight, the flare ships went off because up where they are, it is daylight. Down in the jungle it is still pitch dark. And they left. And I just couldn’t—and I fell asleep in the dark, you know. And I slept for maybe a half hour. I woke up and okay, I felt better, and I was still alive. And then Captain Hawkins said that Delta company was coming in to relieve us. And the day before, we didn’t know but on the 22nd, there were no other infantry units in the jungle. They had all been pulled out on the 21st. And they had looked at having Delta company come in and give us a hand. But by the time they got them organized, they prepped a landing zone and it caught fire. And then before they could—they said, “Well, we will hold off a bit.” And by that time, we had controlled things. We had finally got to the point where okay, looks like they got it under control, but we will relieve them in the morning. So, some time that morning, 8-9 o’clock, they show up, coming walking down. (02:08:09) Veteran: And then they proceeded to dynamite and C-4 a landing zone. And it was down in the—down where we were. We were supposed to go, you know, a kilometer up to this other landing zone. Well, that—they couldn’t haul everybody up there that needed to be hauled. So, they blew an opening big enough to get the helicopter. And then the first helicopter I think started flying out of there around 10 o’clock. And they had to just fly straight down, about 100150 feet through the trees. You know, trees all around them. Come straight down, pick up 6 guys, go straight back up, and then fly away. Very dangerous thing for the helicopters around the �63 enemy because you are a target. But the NVA were so badly beat up, they weren’t able to get close to us. And so, they—we took all the badly wounded out first and then the dead, and then the next level of wounded and then the rest of us went out. So, I was back at Camp Evans by around noontime. And I was on probably the second to last chopper out and Hawkins was on the last one. But then Delta company came out after us and they were extracted by, you know, by 2 o’clock. So, by 2 o’clock, the entire area was evacuated. There was nobody left. Ripcord had been finished off, as far as evacuation, they said by 11 o’clock. We were the…Delta company were the last people to leave the jungle. We were the last unit to be assigned out there and get shot up. And then got back to the rear and I remember—to me, you know, this is—you have to understand: I didn’t know at all what to expect. And whatever happened, I just assumed this is what—this is the way things are. So, we get back to the rear and the first sergeant is there and a bunch of the guys who were in the rear and they were all, you know, congratulated us and shaking our hands and welcoming us back and it was like…I am thinking what’s this about? You know? I was out there, we got shot up, we got back. It’s what we are supposed to do. And, you know, I didn’t realize just how bad things had been, you know, until maybe later. (02:10:27) Veteran: And then I, you know, went—and I had also—during the fight, I lost a tooth. My new platoon—my new sergeant, E-6, was throwing grenades again when he was back with us and needed some fire cover, so I was giving him some fire cover. He throws a grenade. He obviously let it cook off a little bit before and as its going out, I see it going out, and think I got to get down. It goes off. Piece of shrapnel comes back and went right between my lips, hit my tooth, shattered the tooth, gets up and lodges in my gum. Good thing I didn’t have my mouth open: it would have gone through the back of my head. But no big deal. You know, it was like—you know, the adrenaline is flowing so much that day that you didn’t feel, you know, no pain. So, we �64 get back to the rear. I go have my injuries looked at. And they say, “Oh yeah, you lost that tooth. We will have to cut it out. Come back tomorrow.” They checked the shrapnel. They said, “Alright, that is minor.” They said—they X-rayed my head. They said, “You only got that one piece.” They said, “That will work its way out in a month or so. Don’t worry about it.” So, you know. And then it went…and then I have very little—I don’t remember anything else from the time I was back at Evans. The next thing I remember is we were going back in the jungle. And that was about 5 days later. I had a whole bunch of new guys. A couple of the old guys but not many. The wounded ones ended up not coming back. And then there were a few that had been in the rear. And so, I was going out with pretty much a new platoon. My platoon—I had a whole new platoon sergeant because my other one got wounded. Gary Foster, who would have been my platoon sergeant, he never—he went back home. Lost both eardrums, they sent him home. So, he spent 5 days in the jungle. That was his entire tour. (02:12:17) Veteran: He got a Silver Star, which he deserved every bit of. I look back and I can see that his actions really helped us because if he hadn’t been there—because everybody else got—was not working well at that end. And he was the one who kept the NVA from moving closer to us on that end. So, he probably, you know, he was very instrumental in helping the platoon survive. And as it turns out, our platoon being out there where we were and being a thorn in their side was instrumental in helping the company survive. Because it turns out that the way their attack on that end of the company was broken up because they had to turn around and attack us. And so, that left a gap where the company was able to move to and reorganize. So, it’s…Like I say, you plan something? It’s just chaos. Lots of things happen. Of course, we didn’t—we only recognized that years later. We weren’t thinking about it. But we finished up at the…And I— they had a memorial service. I have no memory of that. I didn’t know they had one until a couple �65 years ago when I saw pictures. I said, “Oh, when was that?” They said, “Oh, that was July, right after the Ripcord.” I said, “Really? Where was I?” I may have been getting my tooth extracted. The guys said they went to Eagle Beach. The orders say we went to Eagle Beach. I still don’t recall that. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But I am looking back, and I am sure there was so much mental stress that I just wasn’t registering things. You know? But then August we are back out in the field. We are working outside of Catherine. And that’s how I finished my tour. I finished—I spent another month and a half—spent a month and a half more in the field and then I turned it over to a new platoon leader. (02:14:15) Interviewer: And was that last month relatively quiet? Veteran: Yeah. We spent maybe a week outside of Catherine. One of the guys, I think it was Larry Marquardt, who did not get wounded on July 22nd in my platoon. We are out there. We got new FO because the other one was killed. And he’s putting in registration around. And he figured so, you—lots of times their first round they’ll use smoke to figure out where they are. Hey, he was sure where he was. We hadn’t moved far. We had him fire a high explosive round and it wasn’t where he was waiting for it to explode. And it came close to us and one piece came and hit Larry Marquardtt in the leg. Broke his leg. So, he went out. So, that was his story. He made it through the 22nd but he couldn’t make it through when we are not getting shot at. And then we found out that, when we tried another round, which was—they use a smoke round for the next one—and the artillery guys were all screwed up. So, then we tried it with the mortars and the mortars put it right where we expected it to be. So, what happens is sometimes the guns �66 get shifted and they don’t realign them. And so, we think that’s what had happened. So, for the rest of the time we were out there, we just used the mortars. They were paying attention to detail. And we had nobody coming after us. From there, they took—sent us over to Rakkasan. And we provided security at Rakkasan for maybe…I don’t know, maybe a month. I don’t know how long we were there, and I don’t know if we went back out in the field or not. But middle of September, I was given the rear assignment. And mine ended up being supply officer for headquarters company for 3rd brigade. And that’s how I spent…and being in the rear was nothing to me. (02:16:10) Veteran: We would get mortared, and I would just—I wouldn’t wake up. I’d sleep through it. I woke up the first time we got mortared. And the mortars—the NVA would just throw three rounds in at 2 o’clock, 3 o’clock in the morning to, you know, screw with your sleeping. And then the siren would go off and everybody would run to the bunkers. And a half hour later, the siren would go off and it was all clear and we would all go back to sleep. I did that the first time. A couple nights later, it happened again. Well, we were—I am sleeping in a hooch now. I could actually—I got a roof over me. I got netting around me and I have, you know, 5 feet of sandbags piled around the whole outside. In reality, unless the bomb—unless the mortar landed in the hooch, you weren’t going to probably get hurt. You know? So, I guess in my subconscious I just thought oh, it’s nothing. So, I slept through the next one. And the next morning my mechanics and supply clerks said, “LT, where were you last night?” I said, “What do you mean? I was sleeping.” “No, when they mortared us?” They said, “Well, you didn’t show up at the bunker.” I said, “Oh, I didn’t wake up.” They said, “What?!” And these are guys who had never been in the field. So, you know, everything was really scary to them. I said, “I didn’t wake up,” I said, “but look guys, I am probably not going to wake up when we get—this is harassment fire, and I will �67 probably just sleep through it. But if you guys go to the bunker and there’s a lot more firing going on, send somebody over to my hooch to get me up because I am in charge of unit defenses if we get the attack. If it’s more than 3 or 4 rounds, there might be an attack going on, so I need to be awake then.” And that’s…but again, it was the difference in what you expected. Interviewer: Sure. Yeah, I mean what was the sort of the atmosphere like? Or like, I mean, back there on the base rather than being out in the field? (02:18:08) Veteran: Well, the guys I worked with, they were very nervous. But because they had not seen anything. And so, you know, everything made them nervous because they had heard all the stories. But they just said they weren’t seeing the stories that, you know, it wasn’t happening to them, but they thought for sure it was going to happen any minute. The other thing is there were issues in the rear. There was pot and other drugs and there was alcohol. When I first went to the rear, the Army did not allow you to drink regular alcohol unless you were an E-6 or above. If you were—if you had—you could be 40 years old, you couldn’t buy it. You know? And the old—we all got ration cards. I think we got three quarts of liquor a month, three bottles of wine, and so many cases of beer. Well, I didn’t drink. But I had a supply sergeant who was helping me out and he drank. So, I took care of him. I gave him the liquor because he used his ration card up and he’d use mine up too. But later on, they changed the rule. They said because the Army recognized that you’re forcing the guys to find some other way, so they are going to pot. So, that’s what they did. They changed the rule, and so if you were 21 you could buy alcohol. But pot was available. But the guys that used it were just as dumb as could be because they would get caught and they’d get an Article 15, and they would get written up and they’d lose more money. And then they would complain that the first sergeant is always picking on them. Then they would smoke another joint out there in front of the hooch and get caught again. Or they would �68 end up having to burn shit all the time, you know, because the way they handled it…You know, if you—we had latrines and they were just outhouses and they had half a drum, you know, cut halfway of a 55-gallon drum. And all the, you know, all the crap went into that. And of course, they didn’t want to infect the Vietnam with our germs, so we had to burn it. We—they would mix it with fuel oil, and they’d light it up and the guys had to stir it. (02:20:26) Veteran: Terrible odor and it was considered to be a really bad job. And you usually got that— everybody, all the enlisted men, probably had an opportunity but if you were always screwing up, you always got to burn it. That means you had to go down to the latrine, pull out the full barrels, put in new ones, take them and load them up onto the mule, which is a little ATV, and then haul it out to a certain location up on the hill. And you take them off, light them up, sit there and stir them until they are all burned up and then put them back. Hell of a way to spend your day. But the drug issue was back and forth. It was more prevalent with the guys that were in the rear. Very seldom you see in the jungle the guys—other guys wouldn’t tolerate it. They didn’t want anybody—they didn’t want you drinking, you know. You know, and guys once in a while would bring a beer out there. And I am sure there was—I know there was alcohol out there here and there. But the guys were not getting looped. And they made sure they were paying attention. And I—when Lieutenant Brennan was out there for the FO, he had a bottle of whiskey with him. And you know at the end of the day, we’d be at the CP talking to the captain and he would break out and give everybody a shot. And you know, that was just—that was it, you know. But… Interviewer: Now, did—were there discipline problems out in the rear that got worse? I mean, were there racial issues or things like that? (02:22:00) Veteran: I didn’t experience any but they—I knew they were around. I was aware of them. Within the unit that I was dealing with, anybody—you know, the black guys and the white guys �69 who were in the supply unit? They were all happy to be here, thank you very much. It’s, you know, it was a good job. And so, they didn’t have issues. Some of the other guys that were not assigned strictly to my section, they had issues and they would get on the wrong side of the first sergeant. And this one guy, I talked to him a couple times. I said, “You know, what do you— what are you doing? You are just shooting yourself in the foot and you have got nothing to gain by this.” So, but you know…It’s the way it was. But there were racial issues and they got worse as time went by. By the time I left, in ’71, it was becoming more of an issue. Again, I didn’t experience it. But I didn’t have any prejudice…any obvious prejudice. I mean, there might have been subconscious, but I went through, you know, all through grade school—I’d say 20-30% of the kids were black. You know, that’s who I played ball with, that’s who I hung out with. You know, black kids, white kids, it’s all the same to me. And I didn’t realize there was racial issues until I started watching the news in the ‘60s, you know. But again, and I knew that there were people who, when I went and got into high school, there were people who, you know, didn’t like blacks and I couldn’t understand their reasoning because…you know. It was just that way. Interviewer: Now, did you ever get an R and R? Veteran: I did go on an R and R. I finally got that the—after I came out of the field, I went on R and R to Hawaii with my wife. I met her there. By that time, I had—by the time I got out of the field, it turns out I had another case of cellulitis. And it was now eating into the flesh on my shin. And so, when I came out of the field, I had a scab wound on it. I thought it was just nothing special. And I went to the—stopped at the hospital and I said, “Will you check this out?” and so they looked at it and they said, “Oh, yeah it’s a form of cellulitis.” They said, “Here.” They ripped off the scab. They didn’t bother to give me any local or anything. (02:24:19) �70 Veteran: They said, “Yeah, we got to clean that out.” And so, they said, “Hold still.” He said, “It’s going to hurt a little bit.” They said, “Probably a really good idea if you hyperventilate a bit.” I said, “Really?” he said, “Yeah.” I start hyperventilating. He starts cleaning it out, and you know, scrubbing it, and it…Ah, you know it hurts like hell. And then finally he says, “Okay.” He says, “Yeah, that looks good.” He says, “Now we got to pack it.” He says, “You might want to hyperventilate.” Oh yeah, whatever happened to Novocain? I don’t know but probably because I was an officer they didn’t want to. So, you know, so then they take this gauze and it’s about three feet of one-inch-wide gauze. And it’s like a tincture of iodine on it or something. And they take that, and they start stuffing it under the skin in this hole that is about…oh, probably two by four inches long. And they are stuffing it under the skin and finally they pack it all down and then they put a bandage on it and hook me up to an IV and I get—this time I got tetracycline and glucose. I went back there, found myself a bed, got four liters of that and then every morning they would come there, take the bandage off, pull the gauze out, look at it, say, “Oh, look! You can see the white granules there? That’s the new flesh forming. Looking good. Got to put some more gauze there.” And so, by the time I went on R and R, I still had an opening there, but it was reduced. And they said, “Well, we can, you know, to make it faster, we will do a skin graft.” I said, “Where are you going to get the skin?” “Oh, we will take it off your butt.” I said, “Oh, so I will have a sore spot here and a sore spot on my leg? Will it heal otherwise?” They said, “Yeah.” I said, “Okay, I will wait it out.” (02:26:14) Veteran: So, when I got to Hawaii with my wife, I couldn’t go in the water, you know. But we had a good time. We went to—road around Oahu. Well, it doesn’t take too long to ride around Oahu. Went to the zoo and just hung out. And it was sort of a daze for me. My wife, that was her first long, really long, trip. She flew from Jersey all the way to—essentially nonstop—to Hawaii. �71 So, she left our daughter back with my mother and her mother. And then, I got back. So, then I finished up my tour and I went out to a firebase again. We had to—we went out to Camp Carroll. I think in February they were setting that up, so I took my guys out there, the supply guys, to get things set up and we were there for maybe a week or so. But it was kind of nice and we didn’t have to go out in the sun. We had nice underground storages. So, it was pretty good. And then I finished up my tour and then…and while I was there, I had also—I went down to Da Nang on a regular basis looking for supplies. We’d go down there to salvage parts off of other trucks and stuff, so I’d take a mechanic and we’d do that. And we’d spend the night there and then we would come back. Interviewer: So, now you are actually seeing areas that have a civilian population in them and all that fun— Veteran: Yeah, and I took pictures when I—because by then, I picked up a single lens reflex camera, so I’d take that along and I’d be shooting pictures as I am going along. And I did—I got this one picture, I was going to bring it this year, I forgot. When we are going through Huế, there is a movie theater there and they had the billboard, and they had this big picture up there. And it’s all—it’s in French. And it’s…I think it said it was 12 Hours in Hell. It’s a war film. And they have a picture I think of Rex Harrison or somebody up…Anyway, it’s some guy. They got this whole big thing up there and I am thinking well this is good: here we are in the middle of a warzone, they are showing war films. So, I took a picture of that. (02:28:28) Veteran: And I blew it up into—they had the—a photo lab available for us to use. So, I ended up blowing it up like this and have all these Vietnamese in front of it and it’s 12 Hours in Hell. And I said, “Yeah, that’s kind of appropriate.” But it just amazed me that…you know, but life in Huế…they were going on with business as usual. They very seldom at that point got any activity �72 by the Viet Cong or the NVA. And that was always further out because we had, you know, secured the area pretty well; but that changed after we left. Interviewer: Right. Okay, so when do you actually leave Vietnam? Veteran: I left Vietnam around the middle of…I think it was the 15th of March. Interviewer: Of ’71, now? Veteran: Of ’71. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I flew from there directly to Travis Air Force Base in Washington, in Fort Lewis. And I checked out of the Army there. They…and I liked that they said, “Oh yeah, do you have any ailments? Before you leave.” You know? “If you do, you know, we will have a doctor examine you and we will treat them before we let you go.” Well, heck. You know? How is your hearing? Okay, okay, okay. You checked everything off and oh, I am out of here. Interviewer: Now, did you only have a two-year active duty obligation? Veteran: That was my only active duty obligation at that point. And then I was supposed to be on—in the Reserves for another six. And then on standby for a few years after that. Well, I got— so, I finished up there. They gave me a ticket, gave me all my money. I flew home. My family picked me up at…in Philly. And before I left, I had wrote a letter to the Fish and Game saying, “Hey, got a job? I am coming back.” And they nicely wrote me back, saying, “Well, we are not hiring right now but we will keep you in mind if something happens.” And so, then when I got home, I looked up the guy I had worked with for two summers. And he said, “Well, whenever you get back, I’d like you to work with me.” (02:30:33) �73 Veteran: And so, I got back, and I talked to him. Told him, you know…he said, “Yeah, we are not hiring right now.” He said, “Give me your phone number. If something comes up,” he said, “I will let you know.” So, I collected unemployment for 3 or 4 months and then I was entitled to it for a year. And it was pretty good money. So, I started looking for jobs in other states in wildlife. And then after about 6 months, I get a call from my old boss. He says, “You still looking for a job?” I said, “Yeah.” He says, “Well, I got a guy working for me. He is about ready to resign.” I said, “Really?” I said, “Good.” He said, “Well, I will let you know.” About two weeks after that, he says, “Alright, he’s resigned. Come on up and sign up the papers.” Well, I found out years later: the guy that was about ready to resign? He was always fighting with my eventual boss. And they would have these drag out arguments. And so, the other crew could hear them 100 yards away through the buildings, you know. And the—Bob was his name—Bob would get so pissed off at Freddie that he said, “God damn, Freddie, I quit.” And he said—and Freddie said, “Alright! Good!” and then Freddie would call Trenton up and say, “Well, Bob quit.” He said, “Do you have that in writing?” He said, “Well no.” He said, “It’s got to be in writing.” So then, Freddie made up a resignation for Bob. And the next time they got into a big, heated argument, he pulls out the resignation when Bob says, “I quit.” He says, “Oh yeah? If you do, sign that.” And Bob signed it. That’s how I got a job. Interviewer: I guess it worked a little better for you than it had for Bob? (02:32:06) Veteran: I lasted with Freddie for 12 years before we couldn’t—before I couldn’t deal with him. You know, I have more tolerance than Bob did. And Bob ended up out of Fishing and Game, but he was still working for the state. He moved over. I think he ended up in radiation and then…And I ran into Bob years later and he still liked Freddie, he said, he just couldn’t work with him. And I understood that. So, but—and so, technically that was probably going to be the �74 end of my career. But then in 1973 I got a notice from the Army to show up for two weeks of summer training in Fort Polk, Louisiana again. And it’s like…and it says, “If you do not report, you will be—you could be activated for six months.” Well, I am in—I work for the state of New Jersey. If you have any service time, they will pay, you know, for—Guard or anything else— they will pay while you are away for the two weeks. So, I got their pay and then the Army paid me at the same time. So, they flew me down there. I went to—I got to Fort Polk. I got there, come to where I was supposed to report, report in. The guy says, “Who are you?” I said, “Lee Widjeskog. I am here reporting. Here is my orders.” He looked and he said, “Oh, you are a filler.” I said, “Whatever you say.” He said, “Hell, fillers never show up.” I said, “Well, I am here.” “Okay. Well,” they said, “check in tomorrow. We will see what we have for you.” I checked in: nothing. Check in another day: nothing. So, in the meantime, I am sitting at the— down at the officer’s club, sitting by the pool reading books. And then finally, after about a week, they finally said, “Well,” they said, “how about if you give a class?” I said, “Alright.” And they said—I said, “What do you want me to give?” They said, “Well, sit in on this class that we are having today.” So, I went there, sat in on a class, took notes. They said, “Give that class tomorrow.” I came back the next day, gave the class. And then the following day I said, “Well, do you guys want me to do it again? Or what?” They said, “No, that’s good.” And so, I check in; that’s all I did. Two weeks, you know, two weeks go by. I got home. And then I didn’t hear from the Army again until they said my commitment was up years later. (02:34:20) Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have any trouble sort of readjusting to civilian life? Other than sort of being touchy about helicopters? Veteran: Not really. Again, it was—to me it was like I didn’t think that anything special happened to me. It was just…it was just—I just assumed everything was that way. And I didn’t �75 know anybody else. I didn’t have contact with anybody else who was in the service—had been in the service during that period. So, I started working for Fish and Game because I—and I had to take tests but because I was a veteran, I’d go to the top of the list if I passed the test. But I came out high anyway, so it was sort of a moot point. So, some people knew that I was a veteran, but it was—nobody said anything one way or another. And I really didn’t think about Vietnam again until I think it was ’75 or ’76. I was out hunting in the morning. I come off of the marsh and as I am walking down this old railroad bed, two other guys come from the other way. So, we stop and talk. And I am talking to this one guy. He is asking how the hunting was and, you know, what the birds are doing. And as I am talking to him, I am looking and I am thinking damn, he’s familiar. Who is this guy? And I couldn’t place him, you know. And then finally, 10 minutes go by and he says, “Oh, see you later.” And I walked about…oh, I didn’t walk, you know, 50 steps and oh, that’s John Sherba. He was a medic for recon, and I got to know him while I was in the rear. And I had his address, but I hadn’t looked him up. And so, I turned around and I said, “John!” and he turns around, “Lee, right?” I said, “Yeah!” So, we—then we talked for about an hour, hour and a half. Well, it turns out he was one of the guys who went to the first reunion for Ripcord. And he and I would be in contact. He was suffering from—he had a lot of post traumatic stress issues. And I went to visit him at his house. He’s got a couple kids and his wife. And he’s got loaded guns literally in all the corners. Loaded pistols up on the shelf here. He was…My wife said, “He’s kind of a scary guy, isn’t he?” (02:36:23) Veteran: I said, “Well, yeah sort of, but he saw a lot of bad things.” And so, he was suffering for that. And nobody was recognizing post traumatic stress at that point. But he was adjusting. He ended up running his own business as a concrete worker, brick layer. And he adjusted to his situation. And eventually he did go in for counseling and he’s doing, you know, he’s doing as �76 well as you can expect. He’s had other issues, health issues. He ended up with hepatitis C from being in Vietnam and so he’s really on 100% disability, but he’s had heart issues. But that, you know, we are all getting old. But and then, I would talk to him every so often, see him once in a while. We’d both run into each other at the Ducks Unlimited Dinners, because we both go to— and he says, “Oh yeah, they are starting this newsletter.” And that was Chip Collins starting it up. He says, “I will send you a copy.” And he didn’t but then he’d talk about the—when we’d see him again, we’d talk about it. And then he says, “Yeah,” he says, “I have been talking to your boss, Chuck Hawkins.” He says, “He’s out there.” I said, “Really?” I said, “Say hi to him.” I didn’t have any special desire to go see anybody. But I’d talk about it. And again, it wasn’t—that was it. And then finally, he said he went to this reunion and had a good time. And there were only 12 guys. And that was up at North Jersey. And he had asked me if I wanted to go, and I had no interest. And then finally, it was in—I think in ’92—Hawkins tracks me down through the internet. And if you’ve got a name like Widjeskog, it’s pretty limited. So, and in ’92, there were very few Widjeskogs on the internet because the internet wasn’t as wide as it was. Interviewer: Right. (02:38:12) Veteran: Now there is a lot because you’ve got all these Finns that are… Interviewer: People in Finland, yeah. Veteran: Yeah. But so, Hawkins calls me up at home and he had my phone number. And so, I ended up—I wasn’t home at the time—I got a message. So, then I called him back and I was talking with him. And we—so, he said, “Yeah, you ought to think about the reunion.” So, then I started getting the newsletter. He made sure I got the newsletter. And so, then by—I think it was ’97—I finally said, “I got to go to a reunion.” And they were having one in Mobile, but I �77 couldn’t make it because I had already committed to running the Ducks Unlimited Dinner, which is the same time period. So, the following year it was going to be in Atlantic City. I said, “Well, I have to go. If it’s this close, I can’t avoid it.” And so, I went to that one and I told Chuck I was coming, and he went and ended up being there. Now, that’s where I met Frank Marshall, the general. And I was very—a lot of anticipation and I wasn’t sure this was going to be fun. And when I finally got there, I see all these old guys. I was 55 and I was old too; I forgot that you know. And there was only about 25 or 30 guys there. And—but you know, having—I worked with the public a lot, so I just treated it as, you know, I introduced myself and just chat them up and I met, you know…So, I started talking to guys. And I found out that really, it was very comfortable. And from then on, I have gone to every one since. Interviewer: Well, you have taken kind of a very important role in helping run the show. Veteran: Well, and that came just because…again, I was always doing these things like I did Ducks Unlimited, I was committee chairman for…you know, 30 years. And I was also doing that for the Turkey Federation for another 20 years at the same time. You know, and then I—so, I was used to organizing the events and putting them on. And so, I was going to these and you know, I felt kind of guilty. I am not used to just sitting around. And then, Fred said, “Well, you know, I really need—I am going to need somebody to take over.” He said, “I just can’t do this.” And so, I volunteered. I said, “Well, I’ll take it over.” And at that time, Frankie had taken over the—Frank Marshall had taken over the newsletter because Chuck did not have enough time to do it anymore. And he was being criticized by some: “Ah, you don’t get it out fast enough.” And so, and that really—those are things that keep everything operating. (02:40:45) Interviewer: Right. �78 Veteran: But—and the book had come out too. So, it’s about 2006 and Fred said, “Well, here’s what you got to do: you do this and do this, and you book this way to figure out where you are going to be.” He said, “Well, I have got this—I got the hotel set up for the next couple years and we will see about—you can take that over.” And then he never relinquished that portion of it. He really liked doing that. He did not like doing the day-to-day stuff with the reunion when people came in, stuff like that. Which I had no problem with it. My wife—I am lucky because, you know, she likes to do it. She is willing to do all this stuff with me. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I mean, it is—it makes it really easy. And she did the same thing with me at Ducks Unlimited. And you know, she’s the same woman that I married before I went to ‘Nam. So, there’s a few of us that surprisingly that we’ve— Interviewer: Yeah, messing up that stereotype. Veteran: Yeah. I know. It’s, you know…and Gary Foster? Same thing. He and his wife were married before he went to Vietnam. And Fred Gilbert. More and more, I find these guys. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, I have encountered a fair number just across the different areas and, with that kind of thing. So— Veteran: Yeah. And people do get divorced. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And you know—and I—a bunch of guys worked for me when I was at Fish and Game and they never went to ‘Nam and they have all been divorced too. So, there’s other—there’s— you know, ‘Nam was not to blame. It might have been auxiliary, but it was—the marriage was �79 probably going to go down anyway. It just might have got down a little faster. But…and like I said, I have always been very happy. The fact that, you know, I picked the right woman. And she puts up with me; I couldn’t ask for anything better. So, and that’s how I ended up doing the reunion. And I plan to do it as long as I am physically able to. (02:42:31) Interviewer: Well, you do a really good job, and your wife does too. And I certainly appreciate being able to come to these things. And if you are watching this and he’s got a name tag just below where the camera is, Ripcord Reunion, and that is where we are today as we are recording this. I’d like just to close here by thanking you for taking the time out of your regular duties to come in and talk to me. Veteran: Well, I appreciate it. I hope it helps. Interviewer: It certainly will. (02:42:55) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WidjeskogL1682V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Widjeskog, Lee Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10 Title A name given to the resource Widjeskog, Lee (Interview transcript and video), 2014 Description An account of the resource Lee Widjeskog was born in Bridgeton, New Jersey and grew up in that area, finishing high school in 1964. He attended Colorado State University and took ROTC training, and received his commission in the Army in 1969. He took infantry training at Fort Benning, Georgia and jungle training in Panama, and went to Vietnam in April, 1970. He became a platoon leader in A Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. His unit patrolled the area near Firebase Ripcord, and was involved in heavy fighting on July 22, when Widjeskog's platoon was separated from the rest of the company for several hours, and the company then had to spend the night in the field behind before being evacuated. For the rest of the summer he operated in the field around Firebase Katherine and Firebase Rakkasan until he was reassigned to the rear in mid-September 1970. He served as the supply officer for Headquarters Company of the 3rd Brigade until he left Vietnam on March 15, 1971. He has been an active member of the Ripcord Association for over twenty years, and he and his wife currently organize the annual reunions. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9c8322df25bb558bf6c3bf8dc7d1673.mp4 6648b7ec991abcbcb556502f8985b497 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb236fb3bb3b04f8ad74394f3f0ae7db.pdf d05a6ec873757ff7ba89c090a738ab23 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Dr. Richard Wierenga (25:01) (00:10) Introduction: • Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (04:30) Air Force: • Joined the Air Force after two years of college. • Basic training was in New York. • Flew F-86, Sabrejet airplanes. • Became an officer. • Remained stateside during Korean War. (12:00) After service: • Became a state champion in three cushions Billiards. • Went to school to become a dentist, one semester cost only twenty dollars. • Married while in the service, had 3 children. • Dentistry school was four years. • Contracted Multiple Sclerosis after working for 7 years. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WierengaR Title A name given to the resource Wierenga, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wierenga, Richard Description An account of the resource Dr. Richard Wierenga, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the United States Air Force during the Korean War. He joined the Air Force after two years of college and became a pilot. He was never sent overseas, but remained stationed in the United States. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Air Force Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-29 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b4349b7c202e0b5be61c50a1dcc8dc47.pdf 4bf4d9cdb1c86df90164a14815fdc9a4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Nicholas Wieringa Vietnam War 6 minutes 17 seconds (00:00:05) -Born on December 10th 1948. -Part of the Army infantry as a specialist 4th class. -Born in Grand Rapids. -Nine siblings all lived on a dairy farm. -Went to barbers school. -Drafted about three months after finishing barber school. -One brother was a cook in Colorado for the Army. -Another brother was a Russian translator stationed in Greece. -Learned to adapt to military life well. -Served basic training in Fort Knox, Kentucky. -Served AIT training at Fort Louis, Washington. -In Vietnam the War was hectic. -18 firefights during the year he was there. (00:03:00) -On one occasion after a violent battle they ended up having to pick up the body parts. -Difficult but eventually get used to such things. -Had one long lasting friendship from the military, a friend from St. Thomas. -Communication with family was all done through the mail. -No real recreational time in Vietnam. -Typically sent out on patrol for 21 days at a time. -After returning to the US finished his time at Fort Knox. -Returned to the US on a plane. -Family and friends were supportive once he returned the general public less so. -Didn’t have significant difficulty returning to his civilian lifestyle. -His military experience made him appreciate what he has, friends and family. -Enabled him to value the life that he has. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WieringaN1850V Title A name given to the resource Wieringa, Nicholas J (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-24 Description An account of the resource Nicholas Wieringa was born in 1948 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was part of the Army infantry as a specialist 4th class. At Fort Knox, Kentucky he undertook basic training, and then had AIT training at Fort Louis, Washington. Nicholas was deployed to Vietnam at an especially hectic time of the War during which 18 firefights broke out. After his return to the US he served the remainder of his enlistment at Fort Knox before being discharged. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wieringa, Nicholas J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Skinner, Jordyn (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. ArmyOral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa934ddac1ce763d03474b38ea9de7d4.mp4 ea81a77ffef742b6280e5ee2f30db527 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/190078ae1331571130ddb8f44f0c5407.pdf 883e52c69b58e7aafc1e6740269f9302 PDF Text Text GVSU Veteran’s History Project Operation Iraqi Freedom Christopher Wiers Interview Total Time: 21:08               (00:25) Enlisted when he was a junior in high school (00:44) Boot camp was eye-opening for him o Physical and mental challenge (1:40) While he was in Iraq, during the first year, they built bases (2:00) The convoy rolled out at 6 am; had to get up at 4:30 to prepare o They went to get the Iraqi interpreter o Then went to motor pool for the morning formation to hear what the company commander wanted them to do that day o Test-fired weapons o Remembers giving village kids treats like muffins and Gatorade (4:07) Worked 16-17 hour days for 7 days a week under extremely hot weather conditions (4:30) They didn’t run into civilians often, but mostly they were happy to see them o At first the kids were scared, but not after awhile (5:40) When they first arrived, they had to clean and rewire their barracks (6:00) Mentions different food they had o First Sunday of the month they had lobster and steak (7:40) The second time he was in Iraq, he did convoy security o 4 Humvees in their security convoy o If they found anything, they would get out and clear it (8:45) Enjoyed serving; didn’t ever feel scared (8:55) There was a time when he was injured after they hit an IED o They hit an IED that was made of mortar rounds and a rocket o It was set up to take out a tank or troop carrier (10:00) Describes some injuries of his friends due to the IED (10:40) When he was ejected from the Humvee during the explosion, he had a bad brain injury, shrapnel in his face and eye, broken left arm, shrapnel in legs and 1st and 2nd degree burns on one side o Doctors in Iraq weren’t aware of the extent of his injuries o Brain injury affected him for a while; short term memory loss o Still has small memory problems but has greatly improved (12:30) Had a hard time adjusting to civilian life knowing his friends were still in Iraq �  (12:55) Says that the military changed his outlook on life (13:30) Showed some Pepsi cans from Iraq and his honorable discharge certificate from the Marines o NCO papers o Purple Heart o Pictures, memorabilia, videos, etc. o (continues until the end of the video) o One of the videos included footage just two hours before the crash occurred � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WiersC1008V Title A name given to the resource Wiers, Christopher (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wiers, Christopher Description An account of the resource Christopher Wiers enlisted in the Marine Corps before graduating high school. The time he served was from 2002 – 2006. During his second tour in Iraq, he worked in convoy security. They would clear explosives when they were detected. Mr. Wiers was involved in an IED explosion accident and suffered brain damage along with other injuries. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rodriguez, Nicole (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-03 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d375d7d7595432b67bfaf14e5b9bed12.m4v 0bdb96f4db22b96a573d3cb480cea279 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1caaf22e80bf10c9cfa835782a733b6.m4v 138164e952aff99e1add3eb7429f509d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/686a607d0ed1513441d09963e55f4e8f.pdf 777da7229b178286a9f4f5d020424a64 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Ed Wietecha Vietnam War Part 1 – 49 minutes 37 seconds (00:00:47) Early Life -Born in Pottsville, Pennsylvania in 1945 -Mother was living with her parents while father served in North Atlantic Ocean -Almost all of his uncles served in the military during World War II -Father had a career in the Navy -Served in China prior to, and during the Japanese invasion in 1937 -Father was reassigned to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois after the war -Grew up in Waukegan, Illinois -Graduated from high school in 1963 (initially says 1967, but corrects himself later) (00:02:21) Vietnam War, College, and Navy Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) -American presence in Vietnam was gaining attention in 1963 -He wanted to join the Marines and go through Platoon Leader Class -Friends at the University of Illinois suggested he join the Navy ROTC -He decided he'd do that, get commissioned, and join the Marines as an officer -Would still go through Basic School and get sorted for his specialization -Vietnam War accelerated during his time in college -Marines landed in Da Nang in 1965 followed shortly thereafter by the Army -Paid a lot of attention to the war -Major topic of discussion every week -Had classmates fighting in Vietnam -One classmate, a year older than him, was killed in action in Vietnam -Received training between junior and senior year of college -Weeding out men who couldn't physically handle military service -Lasted six weeks -He did well in class -Offered regular commission as opposed to a reserve commission -Reserve officer served for three years -Regular officer served for four years -Able to stay in even if the military downsized -Graduated and received his commission in 1967 (00:06:58) The Basic School -Sent to Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia for the Basic School -Got married in late August 1967 -Married for 48 years as of the time of the interview -He was the most likely to get killed in action -Wife accepted it -Did a lot of physical training -Taught about weapons and tactics -Fired pistols, rifles, flamethrowers, bazookas, anti-tank weapons, and machine guns -Basically, every weapon used by any unit equal to battalion or smaller -Learned how to lead a fire team, a squad, and a platoon -Also learned about tactics used for a company �-Mostly focused on platoon leadership -Excellent training -In Vietnam he was able to react without thinking -Trained by veterans from the Vietnam War -Taught how to lead in Vietnam, but how to lead in other situations outside of Vietnam -Emphasis on jungle combat, but also on urban warfare -The Basic School lasted five months (00:10:43) Artillery Training -Sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for Artillery Training -Main artillery training installation for Army personnel and Marine officers -Main unit was an artillery battery -Consisted of three components: guns, fire direction center, and forward observer -Fire direction center took in coordinates and translated it for gun crews -Forward observer recorded coordinates -Learned how to adjust coordinates as a forward observer -Learned how to do calculations in the fire direction center -Learned how to operate the artillery guns -Trained with the 105mm and 155mm howitzers -Lived off-base with his wife in an apartment -Conducted live-fire exercises -Had minimal contact with the civilian community -Focused on training -Lasted four or five months (00:15:14) Deployment to Vietnam -Flew out of Chicago on April 5, 1968, the day after Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination -Shortly after the Tet Offensive in late January and early February 1968 -Resigned to it -Flew out of California -Stopped in Okinawa en route to refuel -Helped inventory on armory for a few days (00:16:46) Arrival in Vietnam -Landed in Da Nang, South Vietnam -Hot and it stank because of the rice paddies -Told he'd be sent north to join an amphibious task force -Traveled with a warrant officer who gathered intelligence in local communities -Taken to Phu Bai -Didn't have any weapons -Landed at a steep descent to avoid mortars -Stayed in Phu Bai for a few days -Went into Dong Ha -He was eating in a restaurant while the warrant officer talked to the owner -Told Ed they needed to leave and get back to base -Had been informed a major attack was being planned in the area -That night, he saw fighting in the hills (00:20:07) Joining Whiskey Battery -Battalion was ashore -Split into battalion forward and battalion rear -Battalion forward was in combat, and battalion rear carried out administrative duties -He was sent to Direct Support Battery �-Told to pick up combat gear -Bloody, damaged, and had bullet holes in helmets -Gear gathered from the wounded or the dead -Drove home the reality that he was in a combat zone -Assigned to Whiskey Battery in BLT 3/1 (Battalion Landing Team 3rd Battalion 1st Marines) -Infantry battalion with artillery unit and tanks -Task force that operated up and down the coast -Went ashore during action, then returned to ship when things calmed down -Battalion had been fighting along the demilitarized zone (DMZ) since the Tet Offensive -Driven out to the unit -Went on the route the French had used in the 1940s and 1950s and had been destroyed -Joined Whiskey Battery at Camp Carroll near Cam Lo -Other lieutenants and the company commander greeted him -Brought him to the fire direction center -He was the lieutenant with the least experience -Minimal amount of combat at the time -Whiskey Battery was a support battery -Had a 4.2 inch mortar mounted a 75mm howitzer carriage -Capable of being transported by helicopter to the field if necessary -Stayed at Camp Carroll for a few weeks (00:26:23) Operating out of Ca Lu -Moved west to Ca Lu Combat Base, east of Khe Sanh -Tasked with salvaging ammunition and occasionally firing support for infantry in the field -Heard firefights a kilometer away from his position -Sometimes bullets flew over his head, but they didn't take rocket fire like at Camp Carroll -Did Fire Direction Center work -Mostly fired harassment & interdiction fire -Firing a specified number of rounds, at random coordinates, at a specified time -Never knew if they hit anything, but the point was to scare off enemy troops (00:28:07) Fire Missions near Da Nang -Returned to Da Nang to join the 2nd Battalion 11th Marines -Stopped en route to conduct fire missions in support of the infantry -Fired multiple missions simultaneously -Breach of protocol, but necessary -Had constant communication with the forward observer in the field -Fired about 300 meters in front of the infantry -Danger close is 600 meters or less -Had more error with the 4.2 inch mortar as opposed to the traditional howitzers -Meant that rounds spent more time in the air and it could alter their trajectory -Meant that rounds were usually 100 meters off of their intended target -Infantry didn't like calling in artillery from Whiskey Battery -4.2in was too inaccurate, wasn't a commentary on the men in the unit -Usually used the 4.2in mortar to clear landing zones before the infantry landed -It was hot and boring, most of the time -Spent the days building up fortifications and occasionally shooting fire missions -Spent four months in the area around Da Nang (00:33:25) Going into the Field Pt. 1 -He complained about the lack of action and about wanting to be a forward observer -Battalion commander said that if he went into the field, and liked it, he could stay �(00:34:15) Daily Routine in Da Nang -Days started by getting up, getting new intelligence, and inspecting the guns -After that he ate breakfast and met with his gun crews -Cleaned guns and filled sandbags -Sent men out for work details, policed the area, and fired a mission or two -He figured out a way to stabilize the mortars so they didn't slide around and affect accuracy -Filled tires with rocks and put those tires under the mortars which fixed the problem (00:36:58) Morale & Discipline Problems -Infantry didn't ask for support from the 4.2 inch guns, which negatively impacted the crews' morale -Felt like they were just going through the motions and just waiting to go home -Prior to this, the men felt like they had a mission and a purpose -Didn't have any issues with drugs or alcohol abuse, at least not when he was there -Didn't notice any racial tensions, at least none that were apparent -No insubordination -Men listened to orders and followed them (00:38:16) Vietnamese Civilians -Some Vietnamese civilians were used for construction projects on base -Had villages outside of the perimeter -Never made contact with each other -Separated by barbed wire and an abandoned French minefield -He and a few other men went beyond the wire to pull weeds -One of the men noticed that the area had been seeded with antipersonnel mines -Carefully worked their way back to base -Fortunately, nobody got hurt or killed -Angry that no one warned them about the presence of landmines (00:39:36) Going into the Field Pt. 2 -New lieutenant came into the unit and was given the forward observer position -Ed thought he would get the forward observer position and be replaced by the new lieutenant -New lieutenant was wounded, and Ed became the new forward observer -Worked with men that had done multiple tours in Vietnam and had experience -Got shot at the first day in the field -Different atmosphere -Remembers eating, communal-style, out of a can of pears -Marched 13 kilometers the second night -Took mortar fire for the first time in the field -Passed a small, Vietnamese village -Saw only women and children -Ordered to put artillery fire on the village -He radioed in the coordinates, and fortunately, the mission didn't go through -Had the same experience two more times -Saw children riding on water buffaloes, and one officer ordered him to fire -He refused, and his commanding officer supported his decision -Went on a few minor operations and conducted a few sweeps -Went into the mountains -Had to be medically evacuated because his boots were doing so much damage to his feet (00:44:12) Recon Outpost -He was assigned to a recon outpost for two weeks where he could direct artillery while his feet healed -Fired on Viet Cong troops and taught the recon soldiers how to fire the artillery -Recon commander wanted him at the outpost if he ever transferred to the infantry �(00:45:12) Going into the Field Pt. 3 -Went back into the field after his feet recovered -During one mission a recon squad (eight men) was pinned down and needed artillery support -Took 25 minutes for the first artillery rounds to land on target -He reported the error to his regimental commander as soon as he could -Felt bad, because the battalion commander was at fault -Felt it needed to be addressed -Battalion commander took it maturely (00:46:47) Operation Meade River -Started a major operation in an area with a railroad line, a road, and two rivers -A four kilometer by six kilometer area surrounded by 13 battalions -He went in with the first wave -One of the helicopters in the subsequent wave got shot down -His commander was severely burned -A piece of fuselage hit him -He was medically evacuated, but was returned to the field -Had unknown hip and spine problems as a result of not being treated -Completed the operation -Saw his first napalm victims -Charred, unrecognizable, and inhuman corpses -Almost got hit by their own napalm -Radioman told the pilot to abort the drop just in time Part 2 – 43 minutes 34 seconds (00:00:03) Operation Meade River -New company commander acted professionally -Always wore his body armor in the field -Got helicoptered out of the field after being injured by the helicopter crash -Remembers their front line taking artillery and machine gun fire -Assaulted the tree line and got 15 meters inside the line when the Vietnamese opened fire -He responded by directing artillery fire on the enemy machine gun positions -Had 105mm, 155mm, and 8 inch howitzers at his disposal -Someone requested 4.2 inch mortar fire -Battery wanted to put a round 100 yards in front of his position -Once the first round hit they would continue to adjust fire toward the enemy -Ed called in the 105mm howitzers instead because they were more accurate -One Marine went down, so Ed called in artillery on the enemy position and as they retreated -Called in 200 rounds of artillery which resulted in 11 confirmed enemy dead -During the operation he only knew the progress of that operation, but not the war at large (00:05:38) Transfer to 1st Recon Battalion -He returned to his battery and was transferred to 1st Recon Battalion and joined a recon platoon -Sent out patrols of six to eight men to look for enemy -Usually consisted of a lieutenant or sergeant, a medic or corpsman, a radioman, and riflemen -Walked four kilometers over the course of a few days, then got extracted -Objective was to find the enemy then call in artillery or airstrikes (00:07:08) Recon Patrols -On his first recon patrol they were walking up a hill when a rock hit the corpsman �-Dislocated his shoulder and he had to be evacuated from the field -On his second patrol the Viet Cong ambushed them -Bullet went straight across his chest, cutting open his shirt and grazing him -Training kicked in and they immediately returned fire -One Marine got hit and went down -The remaining Marines provided suppressing fire while a helicopter came in -Leapfrogged back to the landing zone (00:09:54) Observation Posts -Sent to fixed observation posts where he adjusted artillery fire -Also taught the Marines at the posts how to better adjust artillery fire -Spent the majority of the rest of his tour on observation posts -Knew how to direct accurate artillery fire -Observation posts were manned by 15 men and sparse -Established in the middle of nowhere, foxholes, barbed wire, and maybe a bunker -Observation posts got attacked by enemy forces -At one observation post they lost a man after Ed left -At another post, half of the squad was killed, but they killed 400 enemy troops (00:13:46) Enemy Contact -Spent five months with the 1st Recon Battalion -Enemy contact never slowed down during those five months and they were always busy -1968 was a busy year after the Tet Offensive in late January -High casualty rates and frequent contact with the enemy -Always understrength during 1968 -If a company lost 50% of its men the unit was considered to be in good shape (00:15:20) R&R in Hawaii -Went to Hawaii for R&R to see his wife -Wife was concerned about his safety after she saw his wounds -Spent a week in Hawaii -Checked out of the hotel on Christmas Eve 1968 -Landed in Vietnam on December 26, 1968 (00:17:34) Vietnamese Civilians -They were in the middle of a “free fire zone” (all Vietnamese persons were considered fair targets) -He was in command of one square kilometer -There were Vietnamese civilians in the free fire zone that had been wounded by artillery fire -Called in helicopters to evacuate the Vietnamese civilians to a local hospital -An observation officer flew over the free fire zone and saw the Vietnamese civilians -Wanted artillery fire called in on the Vietnamese -Ed refused to call in a strike on civilians -If the officer pressed the issue Ed would order his men to fire on the plane -He returned to battalion headquarters and expected punishment for insubordination -Nothing happened (00:20:44) Living Conditions in Vietnam -He remembers being at a place called Go Noi Island -He was sitting in a hut and watched a huge snake come in and go out -Drank a lot of coffee in Vietnam, and there were always flies -For a while he would pick the flies out of his coffee before he drank it -He eventually got so tired that he drank the coffee with the flies in it -At night he'd cut a slit trench one foot deep and long enough that he could lay down in it -Put a poncho over the trench to keep the rain out with his rifle next to him �-Remembers the Vietnamese attacked their position one night -He woke up long enough to ask if they needed artillery then fell back asleep (00:24:08) Rear Duty in Da Nang -Near the end of his tour he became the company executive officer -Stationed at the company area in the rear -Slept in cots -He was stationed outside of Da Nang near division headquarters -Went for daily runs on “Freedom Road” -Rarely left the base -Went to the beach one Sunday to cook up some steaks -En route the Vietnamese attacked and blew up an ammunition dump -Civilians and troops panicked while Ed and his friends were stuck in the crowd -Da Nang was a primitive area -Most of the people lived in cardboard and tin shacks on the side of the road -Very minimal contact with civilians in Da Nang (00:27:32) Leaving Vietnam -Left Vietnam in spring 1969 -Stopped in Okinawa for a few days and bought a stereo -Landed in Los Angeles then flew to Chicago -Mother-in-law or sister-in-law picked him up at the airport -Wife completed her senior year of college when he got back from Vietnam -Flew home in his uniform and didn't experience any hostility -Had three more years of service to complete before getting discharged -Took some leave with his wife at the University of Illinois before resuming service (00:30:00) Stationed at Fort Sill & End of Service -His next duty station was at Fort Sill, Oklahoma -Lived in the bachelor's quarters until his wife joined him -They lived in base housing for married couples then moved into the town near Fort Sill -Got involved with one of the Catholic churches in town and taught religion classes -Befriended the priest -Spoke on behalf of the priest who was a conscientious objector -Served as the tactics instructor at Fort Sill -Taught servicemen how to set up an artillery battery -Two weeks of classroom work -One week of fieldwork -Moving artillery pieces then establish batteries -Did that for two years -Rewrote the Army doctrine on how to defend an artillery battery -Approved by the Pentagon -Spent his third year at Fort Sill working on educational material and working as a testing instructor -Developed test items and analyzed test items -During his third year he also served as a technical adviser and a scout for artillery field exercises -At the end of his Marines enlistment the Army offered him a branch transfer -He would be able to retain his rank and stay at Fort Sill, but he wanted to go back to college (00:36:59) Life after Service -Went back to Illinois for graduate school -Studied the psychology of human learning -Eventually got a master's degree in social work and worked as a teacher and as a therapist -In Grand Rapids he did personnel work for various companies �-Selection, assessment, safety, wage compensation, etc. (00:38:21) Reflections on Service -Has a lot of guilt -Dealt with a lot of PTSD -Realized that he's not a pacifist, but we can't go to war unless there's a purpose and a plan -His PTSD has significantly affected his life and his family's life -He has worked on it and been able to deal with it -Feels that he was a good officer -Saved American lives and Vietnamese lives, and he's proud of that -Conversely, he is proud of the enemy troops he killed -His time in the Marines taught him that he was capable of teaching and enjoyed it too -Suffered from PTSD related nightmares for 15 years after he came back from Vietnam � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WietechaE1913V Title A name given to the resource Wietecha, Edward J (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-12-17 Description An account of the resource Ed Wietecha was born in Pottsville, Pennsylvania in 1945. He attended the University of Illinois and was part of the Navy Reserve Officers' Training Corps. He graduated and was commissioned as an officer in the Marines in 1967. He attended Basic School at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, and received Artillery Training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. He was deployed to Vietnam on April 5, 1968, and arrived at Da Nang. He first joined Whiskey Battery in BLT 3/1 (Battalion Landing Team, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines Regiment). They operated out of Camp Carroll for a few weeks then moved to Ca Lu Combat Base. He, and the rest of the unit, returned to Da Nang and joined the 2nd Battalion of the 11th Marines Regiment where he operated for four months. He went into the field as a forward observer and due to a foot injury briefly served at a recon outpost. He returned to the field as a forward observer during Operation Meade River (November 20, 1968 to December 9, 1968). After Operation Meade River he joined the 1st Recon Battalion and went on reconnaissance missions and guided artillery at observation posts. Near the end of his tour he served as the company executive officer in Da Nang. He left Vietnam in spring 1969 and spent the three remaining years of his enlistment at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, serving as an artillery instructor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wietecha, Edward J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33ad5f045f95a10c1a16334a585e324a.mp4 e787edd9b920ffdd5a6e77c3446db4f5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2e4c781d2b3425148c97231804f5bcf.pdf 6f3bc6ec20c6dcb2f71576438dcd9fed PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II and Korea Interviewee: Ed Wikander Length of Interview: 00:38:30 Background  He was born in Detroit in 1915.  His father worked as an engineer over in Detroit.  He and his brother were separated when he was 2, when his mother moved to Muskegon.  He went to Muskegon High School and graduated in 1934.  During the Depression things were bad for his mom and her three kids, so he joined the Navy.  He joined the Navy because he wanted to die where it was nice and wet, not in a dirty hole.  She did not have much to say as he was 19 and could join himself.  So in 1934, he joined the Navy. He went to Detroit to take the exam. He was one of 16 of 72 that were taken that day. He received a letter in July of 1935 stating that if he still wanted to join the Navy he needed to go to Detroit.  Before he joined he worked at a wire company. Training (2:51)       He would train at Norfolk, Virginia. He would hitchhike to Detroit and from there take a train to Norfolk. That was the first long train trip he had taken. The trip itself would last overnight, and he would get there the next day. It was a regular passenger train, and there were only the 16 men who had made it through Detroit that were going to boot camp. While he was in boot camp he did a lot of marching and discipline while he was there. He would adjust fairly well to those conditions. From there he went to aviation school in San Diego. He ended up being a battleship man. San Diego and Active Duty (4:13)       He would go to Aviation School there. It would be here that he learned how to use torpedoes and bombs for planes. He worked aboard an aircraft carrier and ended up staying there to work. He would be assigned to the USS Tennessee. The Tennessee was a battleship built during World War I. She was in Pearl Harbor while it was attacked. He had just left the Tennessee in July of 1945 [1941]. �                           When he first saw the ship, he was not so impressed. He had heard that the battleship was huge, but it seemed quite small compared to the other ships sitting at the docks. He had to leave his Division for two days. At that time, he had only been out to sea once, while he was in Norfolk. He would take a ship to San Diego, going through the Panama Canal. He caught hell for taking pictures of the place. While he was on the Tennessee, he cleaned decks and painted things, just regular seaman duty. He would take long trips while serving on the Tennessee. One time, they had crossed the Equator to get to some place, and they had a celebration when they crossed the equator. New guys were called “pollywogs” because they had not crossed the equator before, and they had a sort of special thing they did for the new sailors on the ship. There were a lot of new guys on the ship because of what was happening in the war. He got a certificate to prove he was a shellback, so he did not have to do that again. He would travel from Long Beach to New York, again through the Panama Canal. He would go back through again and go to Seattle. There the ship would have an overhaul. While the ship was getting an overhaul, he would still be there, working and cleaning. He got shore leave anytime in the afternoon, 1600. When the guys got to shore, they would go to a movie or grab a couple beers, or even visit some people, if they knew any. He would travel to Pearl Harbor in 1935 or ’36. Before the war, he thought Pearl Harbor/ Hawaii were a place of beauty.(9:45) It was very busy there; a lot of political ongoing. When he got to Pearl Harbor, he would get some R&R before leaving. While he was there, there were many different ships, aircraft carriers, and other military tools that were gathering in Pearl Harbor. He knew that there was something suspicious going on because there were Japanese aircraft coming and going from Tokyo. They were there with other carriers, including the California, the Colorado and the Utah. He would meet his wife there; this would be December 1941, just after he got out of the Navy. During his time on the Tennessee he did not go to any other islands or places. Later on in his career, he would go to Korea. When he first got to Pearl Harbor, he did not know where the oil tankers were, because they were so well camouflaged. Life on a battleship was just like living in a city. You could literally live on it. He would leave the Navy in 1941 to take care of his mother, as she was ill. He was thinking pretty strongly about staying in the Navy. If you could get through those first couple years, you could make it through anything. But due to his mother, he left. So he had left the Navy and he thought he was done, but after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, he would receive his draft notice in early1942. Back into the Fray (15:55) �          Once he was called back into duty, he would report to Great Lakes, Chicago. He would stay there for about two weeks before being sent out to a small base near San Francisco. No one had ever heard of the place. There, he would help marines learn amphibious beaching. He would bring the crews up and lay them on the beach. He would do this for a while. He liked the training, he was his own boss. It was interesting work. He was not married at the time, but he had met her earlier, in 1941. He would go right out from there, and was not allowed to leave to go home. Transported by the USS Seawolf, a liberty ship, he would go to Tinian. 59 Days is what it took to get over there. They would often zigzag, so it took so long. He would travel with a convoy. There were no problems with submarines on the way out there and they did stop in Pearl Harbor before getting to Tinian. Pearl Harbor was very different from when he last saw it. The Tennessee was still there, as it had been repaired. They stayed there for two days before heading out to Tinian. Tinian (21:20)           Tinian looked like a wreck. The American military that was there had really taken over the place and there were tanks everywhere. His job in Tinian would be to build a new 1,000 bed hospital. Men would stop by there to get treatment before heading back to Pearl Harbor. He was in charge of the seaman’s guard and the laundry. While he was there, he and the others would get news of political talks going on back home to try to find peace with the Japanese. The US military would even move more of its fleet in California to Pearl Harbor to intimidate the Japanese. It was hot there, but it was just another place for him. There were lots of Japanese left, who were put to picking up garbage. These prisoners looked like any other Japanese to him. He was on Tinian when the war ended. The bomb dropped on August 5, and they all thought that would bring an end to the war. He was one of the first ones to actually leave Tinian, due to his time served from ’35-’41. It was credited to his total time there. He would go home on a ship and it would take a straight line home, taking much less time. Korea (27:20)       When he got back the states, he went back to his job working with cranes. He would get married in 1946. He would work there for forty years. He was working there when the Korean War started and was drafted into that war as well. He was drafted in 1951. He would go straight to the ship this time. �                He would arrive in San Francisco and go straight to Saipan, Korea. He would take the USS Prairie to Korea; it was a destroyer. He would work on the ship as a deck hand. When he headed out to Korea, he would retain his rank of Boatswain 2nd Class. During his time in Korea he would be promoted to 1st class. While he was on the ship he had 18-20 men working under him. By this time, there had been some integration of black in the army, but most kept to them. They would land in Sasebo, Japan. He would live on the ship, but go on shore often. It would be here that he would learn to appreciate where he lived. He looked at how the people there lived and especially took notice of the sewage that filled Tokyo Bay. He did not do much for site seeing, as he was told not to wander around too much. He would visit Yokohama and other cities, but not Tokyo. Some people did get in trouble while they stayed there. He did not go to Korea at all, but he just stayed in Japan (34:20) He did not really pay much attention to what was going on in the war. Instead he just did as he was told and waited for the time to pass. Although he was a WWII veteran, he did not pay attention to see if there were any other ones there. In 1951, he would finish his tour and go home. They were trying very much to get him to stay, promising position and money. Post Duty (36:00)        The trip from Japan two about two weeks. He would get home September 1951. After he was discharged, he would go back home to his family and take up his work where he left off. His time spent in the Navy taught him a lot of things, including an appreciation of what he had here. He says that if you thing you have it bad, go to a different country and you will change your mind. It is very different! He learned how to work with people from 1935 on. If he could have done it over again, he would have. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WikanderE Title A name given to the resource Wikander, Ed (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wikander, Ed Description An account of the resource Ed Wikander joined the Navy in 1934 and served as a seaman on board the battleship USS Tennessee until leaving the Navy in the middle of 1941. After Pearl Harbor, he was drafted back into the Navy, and spent about two years working at a Marine base in California before being sent to Tinian to help build a hospital. He was called up again for Korea, and served on a destroyer based in Japan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-10-18 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b59fcb6a4943a971d35bcb530b6fa5cb.mp4 6200240748770ef8d622d42df91fdef6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be48a1c44270e9dad322de80fb89d599.pdf 9f3a343ddd27dd9d68d65c09f483f05d PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW JEFFREY WILCOX Born: Nyack, New York Resides: Saugatuck, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 1, 2013 Interviewer: Mr. Wilcox, can you start by giving us a little bit of background about yourself, where and when were you born? I was born August the 23rd 1946 in Nyack, New York. Interviewer: What did your family do? My father was into heavy industry and in those days you were moved at will, and we rather quickly ended up in Gary, Indiana with the U.S. Steel Company. Interviewer: How old were you when you moved out there? I turned seven that summer, so I went from there through high school in Gary. Interviewer: Did you go to public school, or Catholic? Public schools Interviewer: What were public schools in Gary, Indiana like in the 1950’s? Ozzie and Harriett or Leave it to Beaver would be the way to categorize the city at the time. Prosperity was high, the mills were producing more than any place on the planet, my wife says, “We don‟t trust air we can‟t see”, and you could see the air real clearly in those years. 1:09 It was an interesting place to grow up. Interviewer: I remember being a kid and driving past Gary coming out of Chicago, and at seven years old asking my mother, “Mom, where’s Gary?” She said, “See that big black cloud over there? That’s Gary”. 1 �A red cloud usually Interviewer: At that distance, at the time, you remember that, but on the whole that would be a period when wages were good, so you have a pretty good middle class existence even at the worker level. Was your father in management? Yes, sort of mid to low level management and he was a superintendent in yard and transportation, moving stuff in and out of the mills. Everybody either worked in the mill or prospered from the people who worked in the mill, so it was the life blood. Our school was a WPA project and it was really rather gorgeous, I now know. 2:01 It had these extraordinary murals in it of American industry, which have now, I understand, been obliterated by subsequent remodeling of the school. We were “baby boomers”, there was an elementary school built for us, so we were the first kids into an elementary school. Gary, actually, has a history of innovation in education and I now know that in the midfifties for a woman to get a hold of a school, as the principal and go through the school system and pick the teachers that she wanted made for a—it was really a very exciting environment in elementary school. We loved it. Interviewer: Then the—let’s see, when did you finish high school? 1964, June of 1964 Interviewer: Now, you went straight into West Point. July 1 Interviewer: Tell me, what made you decide to go there in the first place? That‟s a good question. I always was attracted to the rigor, the notion of the rigor. 3:07 I always—growing up in the wake of WWII saw military service as the just and right thing and it just had a hold on me from about the sixth grade, and I started working on it. 2 �Back then, the only was a sort of political process. You had to see how many letters you could stack up on the congressman‟s desk and I didn‟t have a lot of connections, so basically it was trying to meet people, go on a sales call, and ask them to write a letter on your behalf. I ended up lined up in third place for a spot. The number two guy didn‟t do quite well enough on the College Board, so I was moved to second. The number one guy was—he was really a talented, rounded guy, and I was told, when I got my letter two weeks before I was to report, that something had been determined about an injury to his elbow. 4:10 I later learned I had a much worse injury to my knee than had ever happened to his elbow, so I have this distinction of lying my way into the army in the 1960‟s. Interviewer: There were not that many of you doing that at that point. So, who knew, but the deal was—my brother had to drop out of college because of money and he was working at the local windshield wiper factory, and he was a good kid. They said that when I graduated from high school I could have his job, so he could go back to college. So, I was going to be a life guard that summer and he was going to go back to college and I was going to go into the windshield wiper factory and I was saved, just totally saved. Interviewer: Now, did you actually have to have a letter from a congressman, ultimately, was that still part of the process? 5:05 You had to be appointed, and I received a telegram saying that I was the second alternate to a position, and then I gave up. Interviewer: Who did you have support from? What kind of people did you go visit to do this? 3 �My neighbor was the private secretary to the mayor. I called on people who were in business who were graduates and I don‟t recall how I learned who they were, and then my high school coaches and my minister and people like that wrote things on my behalf. To some extent it was, “how high is your stack” and to some extent it was who wrote it, so I did well enough to get on the list anyway. Interviewer: so, when do you actually arrive in West Point? July 1, 1964 Interviewer: What was your first impression of the place when you got there? 6:01 It pretty well comported with my image, and we were all, of course,--you take accomplished kids and it‟s all about, in minutes, convincing them that they have no right to be there and that they are the worst person in the world, and whatever made me think I had the ability to do this, and sort of even people out and rebuild them the way the institution wants. Interviewer: How do they go about doing that, a lot of sergeants yelling at you? Yeah, the people who are conducting this are the third and fourth year guys, so it starts very rudely with, at least in that era, with reporting to a guy in a red sash who‟s standing out in the middle of this open space and you walk over to him and kind of want to say, “Hi”, and he starts disciplining you right there. 7:05 He said, “Drop that bag”, so I put the bag down and he said, “I didn‟t tell you to put it down, I told you to drop the bag, so pick it up”, so you pick it up, and pick it up, and start right then with not questioning, just doing exactly what I tell you. I broke a bottle of cologne in my bag doing that. Later, when I was one of those guys, I remember peeking out of a window just as the first of 4 �them were starting to come in that I, actually, welled up, I felt so badly for these guys, but we delivered anyway. Interviewer: What did the first year curriculum consist of? What were you doing or how were you spending your time? Well, we carried an academic load of around twenty to twenty-two hours in today‟s standard, and then there was reveille, marching to breakfast, going to class, marching to lunch, going to class, parades, and intermurals are a big part of West Point. 8:09 Everyone‟s is always involved with sports in a wide range of them, not just football, basketball and baseball, but squash and thing like that to teach you these games. PE in the first year was a major challenge. There was wrestling, boxing, survival swimming and gymnastics, and it was all rigorous stuff. Interviewer: How did you hold up through all that? I made it, and I had been trained as a life guard in high school, so I had a little bit of a leg up on the survival swimming thing, although mostly you‟re in a pool with boots and clothes on and it‟s just exhausting. So, then there‟s staying awake at night enough at night to study and the class rigor was rigorous, you know, every day, in mathematics especially, every day you recite at a blackboard, or standing in front of the instructor. 9:10 It was daunting, but it gets you to think on your feet, and speak on your feet, and that‟s really what the training was about, and in my day, the curriculum was general engineering, basically, applied mathematics. Interviewer: Were the instructors’ military, civilian, or both? Military, I never had a civilian instructor, but there are some now, I think. mostly grads who were back after graduate school. 5 They were �Interviewer: Now, during the course of that first year, do you get a chance to go home or get out of there, or did you have breaks? Yes, actually, ours was the first class that was permitted to go home at Christmas, and I really wish we had not, because it was horrible coming back, so that was the one break, and then in the spring break, where the upper classes take off for, basically, an extra-long weekend, and the fourth classmen, the first year people are left in charge of the place. 10:13 My girlfriend, now wife, came to visit during that, but generally speaking it‟s a pretty cloistered existence. Interviewer: How does the experience change from year to year while you are there? Oh dramatically, as soon as that first year is over you‟re a real person and then every summer, as different training things associated with it, that first summer afterwards, the whole class is out at a camp on the reservation, for pure military, for sixty days, and each summer we got thirty days off, we were paid by the way. Interviewer: What would you do with your time off? I usually came out here to Michigan to visit my future wife‟s family and sponge off the family. 11:06 Interviewer: So, you’re there, so how long, total, were you then at West Point? Four years Interviewer: 1964 to 1968, now this is, of course, an interesting time in terms of American history and what’s going on with the military because the Vietnam War was ramping up significantly. How much attention were you paying to all of that as you were going through West Point? 6 �It was constant, I mean because we all knew people who were dying and that would be reported at the evening meal. The instruction began to change to accommodate the kind of tactics that were being called for, just as it‟s been changed now for Iraq and Afghanistan, so it was a constant topic. Interviewer: Did you have people coming back from Vietnam and kind of talking about what they were experiencing and doing and so forth? Very much so, the faculty was all guys who had been to Vietnam and were back, so they had a lot to impart and it was really useful, actually. 12:04 Interviewer: What was the morale of the cadets like as they’re going through this and the war is escalating? It was high because we knew we had volunteered for this, and so, you take your lumps. I don‟t remember if it was 1966 or 1967 when General Westmoreland came back to address congress, basically, attempting to get more troops assigned, and since he had come all that way, he came up for dinner one night, because he‟s a grad, and he addressed us all. The way he put it was, “Don‟t worry men, if they call it off now, it will take long enough to wind down, that you‟ll all still go”, so what we had in Vietnam, in my opinion, was a great live fire exercise in which people could prove their mettle and build their resumes and make their careers and that‟s the way a lot of people looked at it. 13:09 This is my chance to do what I‟ve trained for. Interviewer: Was the general message coming out, one that we were winning, that we were doing it right? What was presented to the public and the congress for quite some time was that everything was a great success, at least up until Tet. That was 7 �the public impression that you were getting from the veterans and from what you knew within West Point? You know, I don‟t remember there being any drum beating. Most of the time you would be talking to a young Captain, and then you‟re talking about the sort of nitty gritty aspects of tactics and that sort of thing, so we didn‟t have a lot of conversation about the global purpose and so forth. 14:01 Interviewer: Right That had to sort of dawn on me along the way. Interviewer: So, at that point you’re focusing much more on just the physical, practical and immediate problems with what you going to do when you’re out there in the field in this situation you’re at, and small unit tactics and leadership and that kind of thing. Now, there was a great sentiment among us for people who were our age, college age, who were protesting the war. We understood what they were saying and no one held them in any disregard, which was interesting. We actually practiced, our color guards practiced, defending the flag with these ceremonial bayonets in the event there should be some disruption of sorts, but none of us felt any animosity toward these people, and I don‟t recall anyone speaking in those terms, we‟re just in a different pack. 15:04 Interviewer: What sort of contact did you have with people, maybe, who were protesting or things like that? Personally not that much, although back then Armed Forces Day was a big deal in New York and there was a huge parade down 5th Avenue, and in the order of march, the cadets at West Point go first in any military parade, and it just so happened my third year, my 8 �junior year, I was in the front rank of the front unit, there were just a few people out ahead of us, and we were coming right along Central Park down 5th Avenue and a bunch of students, or young people, rushed out and plopped down in the middle of 5th Avenue with flowers in their arms and we went into marking time. It took about that long (snap of the fingers) for the New York City police to grab them by the arms and haul them off the street. 16:02 Then we proceeded, and here we were marching across all these flowers that these kids had dropped and we felt badly about it, because you can talk out of the side of your mouth or talk without turning your head and there was a lot of conversation about it, and we felt badly. It was on the front page of the New York Times. Interviewer: Did you have occasions to be kind of in New York on your own while you were a cadet in the middle of all of this? Yeah, there was the occasion where we had a thing called “the fine arts forum” and we called it “the culture club” because it was a way to get out for the weekend so, we had to go the Huntington Hartford Gallery, and we had to go to the ballet. You learned to like ballet in the process, but at the time it was just a device. So, we went in the Huntington Hartford Gallery, which is at the south west corner of Central Park, and we went up and down in there real fast and out the door, I did it. 17:02 When we came out the door was the gathering for the great “hippie” rally in Central Park, and these young people streaming into the park all being really pleasant with us, and if I‟d of had my wits about me I would have gone and witnessed it, but I was more interested in getting back to the hotel and changing out of my uniform. Interviewer: Right 9 �We went off, so I came that close to a historic event. Interviewer: When was in terms of the war? That would have been in 1966 Interviewer: Okay, was that the start of your junior year? Spring of 1966 Interviewer: It might have been 1967 It might have been 1967 Interviewer: It depends if it was actually fall or spring I guess. I think it was spring Interviewer: Probably early 1967. So, at that stage then there was not necessarily animosity, or hostility, directed toward men in uniform, because part of the postVietnam story later stuff is, people didn’t want to be seen in their uniforms. 18:00 People would say bad thing and so forth, but if you go back there, at least early 1967, even in New York, which is a place where you might expect people to do all sorts of stuff, it wasn’t really working that way, at least not for you. No, it never worked that way for me. I later discovered there were some people who were uneasy about me in the business setting, but nobody ever said anything to me. I was actually hired at IBM because I was a veteran, because the people at IBM that do the hiring, are the managers for whom you‟re going to work, and the guy who hired me was a veteran and he liked it, so I actually benefited from it in that respect. Interviewer: All right, when did you then graduate from West Point? June of 1968 Interviewer: So, the Tet Offensive--- 10 �The day Bobby Kennedy was shot Interviewer: Okay, and so what was going through your head at about that point in time? 19:01 You’re finishing up and all this stuff is going on. I was getting married too and it was very interesting. In January of 1968 our branches were already determined. I was going to be in the infantry and I‟m still not sure how it works now, but back then you would, by branch, be herded into a room and there would be a map of the world there with assignments, so that you could pick your first assignment. The guys who weren‟t getting married were all picking the glamour units in Vietnam and I‟m sitting there listening to General Westmoreland tell me, “Don‟t worry, I‟m going to go”. I was looking at the map and there were three assignments in Berlin, so it came my name and I said, “I‟ll go to Berlin”, and so, for the first year of being married- and then there was a lot of training after graduation, and Ranger School, Airborne School, those tickets being punched. 20:05 We got to Berlin in January of 1969 and this is probably more detail than you want, but tours in Germany were three year tours. They were still called three year tours, if you were cut short of a tour by less than a year the army owed you money for the relocation of family, so I stayed 365 days in Germany. I got my orders at ten months to leave on the 365th day, so they didn‟t have to pay any money, but, Berlin was a fascinating experience. Interviewer: Let’s backtrack a little bit. You’re talking about going through training schools and so forth. They put you—basically you were at that point not assigned to a unit yet when you graduated from West Point? I was headed for a unit, but went into a training phase. 21:02 11 �Interviewer: Was it just for that unit and it’s type of work there or for different things? No, it was officer basic training, there was a great—the army is smart enough to not give West Point people any real advantage. Our four years at West Point we carried active duty ID‟s, but the time didn‟t count, and we went through the same track that everybody did, so we went to an officer basic course at Fort Benning, which led into Ranger School, which then Airborne School and then off to wherever you were going to go, so that was very general training. Interviewer: What kind of interaction relationship was there between the officer candidates who were coming from other programs, or whatever, and the ones coming out of West Point? Did you all just mix together? Yeah, people from the Citadel, VMI, and ROTC programs, we were all mixed together and everybody got along great. No one ever, I never saw any friction in that regard. 22:06 Interviewer: The West Point people were not holding themselves up as higher, they weren’t being viewed as being a bunch of snobs by the other ones? No, not that I ever experienced Interviewer: How much integration was there in the officer corps at this point? Not much, are talking about racial integration? Interviewer: Yeah Not much, we had several African Americans in my class, several Asian Americans, and then the military academy has always drawn from protectorates and foreign countries, so there was a fellow in my company the year behind me who was Costa Rican, for 12 �example, so there was that degree of integration. The integration that you mostly felt was being with people from all fifty states and all the protectorates that was fascinating. 23:01 But no, the army was not—it was headed that way, but it wasn‟t there yet. Interviewer: So, you work your way through all of this, did your wife go down to Georgia with you? Yeah Interviewer: Did you live on base or off? Off Interviewer: What was that experience like? You’ve been living in Indiana, Michigan, New York, those kinds of places, how much of a culture shock was there to go down there to Fort Benning? In most respects not much, but it‟s interesting that you brought up the racial question because we were downtown in Columbus Georgia one Sunday morning, we‟d gone to some breakfast place, and we walked out on the sidewalk and an old black man wearing bib overalls leaped off of the sidewalk to get out of the way of my wife, who was shaken by it, and still I am. We both went running over and dragged him back up onto the sidewalk. 24:06 I mean, we grew up in a town that was sixty-five percent black and we were not accustomed to being around black people, but we were sure unaccustomed to that kind of behavior and that was shocking. Otherwise, it was mostly hanging out with the other young marrieds and going to work. Interviewer: Okay, so you work your way through that phase and then you go over, you go to Berlin. Now, what unit were you assigned to there, when you went to Berlin? 13 �The 18th Infantry, it was an infantry brigade in Berlin, an artillery company and then there was us, the French, and the Brits, and if you looked at the—we actually had the arrogance to suggest that this force was holding back the five Russian divisions that were around the city. I mean, they would have hung a “prisoner of war” sign on the wire and that would have been it. 25:02 If you looked at the perimeter of Berlin, down the center, east and west, and then the sector border between West Berlin and East Germany, the defensive plan, we took up, the French, Brits, and Americans, took up about a third of it and the Berlin police force took up the rest, they were trained militarily, they were something else, those guys. I did have the experience of patrolling the wall and the sector border, and because we had the rite to cross the wall, the military did, we were encouraged to do it so as to not lose the rite. At that time you exchanged one American dollar for four western marks, you exchanged one western mark for four east marks, so when you went across it was at sixteen to one on the dollar. 26:03 the lowliest private could go to the best restaurant in East Berlin and you couldn‟t help being an ugly American throwing money around, so there we were in our 1968 Pontiac working our way through “Checkpoint Charlie” to get over to—my wife and I, you had to go in uniform and then cruising around in East Berlin, which was a somber and sobering experience because West Berlin was vibrant and multi-cultural and just a high energy place, and East Berlin was gray and very somber. Kids would speak to you out of the corner of their mouths and that kind of thing. Interviewer: I’m not sure that people even knew that sort of thing went on, that American soldiers were going over into East Berlin. The assumption is there’s just this very—now did Soviet soldiers come over into West Berlin then? 14 �No, they didn‟t so much-- they did, but not in any numbers. 27:05 One thing that we did do, the American, French, Brits and the Russians guarded Spandau Prison and Rudolph Hess was still alive at the time. He was the only prisoner, and the game was for—to report one another for infractions and not handling the guard duty properly. Hess himself enjoyed drawing people into that; you weren‟t supposed to speak to him. One time I was the officer of the guard there and I called up to one of the towers and said, “Tell me when he‟s out taking his constitutional because I want to go and look at this guy”, and so, he was walking ahead of me, going in the same direction, and I was walking to overtake him, ostensibly checking the guards, and as I reached him, to overtake him, he whirled around and looked me right in the eye. 28:08 I was this close to saying, “Excuse me”, for which I would have been reported to the Russians, so that kind of thing was rather fascinating. A strange guy, Hess, and the whole prison was a kind of medieval sort of structure. Interviewer: How did he conduct himself, as far as you can tell? Was he passive? A very passive guy, he gardened and he walked and I don‟t know what he did, I never got in actually to the cell, just the shell of the place. Interviewer: Strange business—now while you’re in Berlin, were the people in Germany paying attention to things like Vietnam and that sort of stuff, were they aware that was going on? I don‟t know—I mean, I was fairly oblivious, and I was more interested in my own experience. 29:03 The people in Berlin all spoke English. You would try to speak German and they were appreciative of it, but they‟d lapse right into colloquial English, so I never engaged much in any of that kind of conversation with them. Another interesting 15 �thing about Berlin—our little measly battalion was headquartered in what had been the headquarters of communications for the Third Reich and there were no infantry Captains in Germany, so these young Lieutenants, we all took company commands. I had an office, possibly, half the size of this room with a ceiling about this high that was totally wood paneled and our brigade headquarters had been the headquarters of the Luftwaffe and it was like a movie going in that place. This rising cobblestone drive up to the big circular thing and you walk into this enormous rotunda, and it was an infantry brigade. 30:11 It was pretty amazing. Interviewer: You talked about your interactions with the German people and so forth. Were they interested in any kinds of things American and that sort of stuff? Oh yes, very much—I mean you could buy American culture on the streets and that‟s where I bought the “Hair” album, and that‟s where I saw “Hair‟, in Berlin, auf deutsch, and Donna Summer was in it. And yeah, it was a very cosmopolitan town. It felt like a prison after a while though, you were very aware. Interviewer: You couldn’t go anywhere really. You could, but it was a process. The army actually had a train that went down to West Germany and it was like the Orient Express. 31:06 Mahogany paneled, these heavy sheets and these sleeping compartments, and at each stop along the way the Russians would come barging onto the train and look at your ID and my wife‟s passport and that kind of thing. It was all show, but it was exciting. Interviewer: How much of a cold war atmosphere was there? Was anybody thinking that a war could actually break out? 16 �Yeah, Czechoslovakia, for example, there was—the Russians were holding Czechoslovakia while I was there and we were alerted for that, but we wouldn‟t have been involved, it would have been units from the states, but there was a high sense of jeopardy. Of course, we‟re people who came out of high school in a highly industrial area, where the day of the missile, that crucial day of the missile faceoff, we all expected to be obliterated. 32:06 There was no sound in an otherwise adolescent cacophony. It was dead silent in the halls of our high school , so cold war was part of all of our mentality , and it was part of our instruction at West Point because that was still—the holding back the Russians was still part of the mentality. Interviewer: You get to the end of the year there in Berlin and now you’re heading back to the states? On my way to Vietnam, yeah Interviewer: And you had orders for Vietnam already. You knew where you were going? I knew I was going there, I didn‟t know what unit. Interviewer: Describe the process then of going over, going from Berlin to Vietnam. What stages are there, there? Just the trip, getting my wife resituated so she could wait out the period of time and that took us a couple of weeks, and then I was gone. 33:07 She said to me when she took me, this was now 1970, took me to the plane, she said, “You don‟t have to do this, we could go to Canada”, because she had been awakening during this period of time. When I came back—well, to step back—the high ranking, academically high ranking, members of each class at West Point are given the choice, or were, to go directly to graduate school 17 �and then go into the active army while owing two years for one of graduate school. When I was on my way back I saw one of my classmates on the evening news, he was at Harvard, and he was announcing, “I‟m not doing this, I‟m not going to go and participate in that war, I want out”. 34:03 He was allowed out and that impressed my wife. I still had this idea. “Look, I asked for this, it saved me from oblivion, I owe this time and I have to go where they send me”. Interviewer: She’s thinking about the possibility that you’ll be coming home in a bag. Right, and so I went Interviewer: Where did you leave from? Where did you settle her? We settled her back home in Gary, and she was teaching at our old high school. I can‟t remember the name of the air force base in northern California, but I went out through San Francisco back out into the valley and there was an air force base there and we took off from there to Alaska. Interviewer: So, you were in a military jet then and not a civilian? No, it was a modified commercial, full of nothing but troops. 35:04 It was a stretch eight and they put extra seats in it, and I was in the back seat, with this thing bobbing all over the place on the way over there. On the last two hours on our way into Vietnam, some guy locked himself in the bathroom right behind me and no one could get him to come out, so the first thing, when we landed, up come some MP‟s pounding on the door, forced the door open and took this guy out in handcuffs, so that was my first experience. My next experience was stepping out the door and being hit with this heat and humidity. My knees almost buckled, of course I had been seeing just how much beer I could drink 18 �in Germany and how much food I could eat, so I was overweight and I lost about thirty pounds in two weeks. 36:03 Interviewer: Now, where did they land you in Vietnam? At Tan Son Nhut, Saigon, and then put us on a bus and took us to a place to sleep. Then officers were allowed to say what unit they wanted to go to, so I thought, “Gee I‟d like to go to the 1st Cavalry Division, I really like that patch”, and my second choice was the 101st Airborne, my third choice was “The Big Red One”, and I got the 101st. Interviewer: How soon did you get sent up there? The next day, and the transport then was a C-130 with cargo pallets, with straps on the cargo pallets, and you sat cross legged and held on to the strap and that was the comfort of military travel. Interviewer: When you were first there in the Saigon area, and so forth, what indications did you have that there was a war going on? 37:01 Very little, by that time Tan Son Nhut was very domesticated. My great regret is that I never got into the city of Saigon; I never really had much to do with the people. I think it‟s odd that I went over there with sort of a sense of alienation from things Asian, and I came back with this abiding regard for things Asian, without ever really interacting with people that much, but they were gorgeous people, and I thought resourceful and strong people. Interviewer: Where was the 101st based at that time? In the far northern most region, the city of Hue, just outside Hue was the division basecamp, my brigade was farther north, just south of the demilitarized zone, and our area of operation, fortunately, depending on how you look at it, was a national forest 19 �preserve, so there never had been people living there. 38:11 So, we didn‟t have this difficulty distinguishing civilians from combatants, so from our perspective, if it moved you would shoot it, and we never had to confront that notion of—my brother, in the navy, did, he was a swift boat skipper and he some real difficult calls to make trying to determine if they were shooting civilians. Interviewer: What was your first assignment once you got up there? I was a platoon leader of the Alpha Company of the 2/506 Infantry. We had just begun a campaign that was involved in establishing a firebase, a fire support base called Ripcord. 39:03 It was picked because it was in proximity to the main supply route that brought things down from North Vietnam, down in Laos and then into South Vietnam. Our purpose was to disrupt this supply line. Interviewer: So you have what’s a potential check point on the Ho Chi Minh Trail I guess is the way to look at it. Yes, it worked that way. It was interesting that this was during the period of Vietnamization, which was a term the Nixon Administration coined, which was, “Get the Vietnamese to handle while we‟re in the background”, which was not the case where we were. What was the case though, was that we weren‟t going to be reinforced because that would have put more Americans into this fray. In fire support bases the principle was, artillery units are on top of these hilltops, secured by infantry, and infantry units operate within range, fire support range, of this artillery. 40:11 So, we were out moving around, off in platoon size units, and in Vietnam the target was the enemy, not terrain, which is why so often you saw things like “Hamburger Hill”, which was the year prior right in that same area, where at great expense you take a hill and you walk away from it because the 20 �idea was to fix and kill the enemy, so that‟s what we were attempting to do. What we now know , my commanding officer at that time had gone back and really researched all this, he‟s met with commanders from the other side, is that there were parts of three divisions of the North Vietnamese Army. 41:00 They were regular soldiers whose task it was to get us out of there. So, from the period March to July of 1970, was that set piece battle, almost. It did culminate with a massive assault on the firebase that drove us out of the area. In fact, on that day the firebase was just overrun and as it was overrun it started to be air struck because the artillery tubes had to be left, a lot of ammunition had to be left, and it was just a, “get the humans out of there” evacuation. So we just struck it, and struck it, and struck it for days, and guys I know have been back. Shortly thereafter, one of the senior officers was on leave in Hong Kong, R&R, and actually saw a display with photos, from Ripcord, declaring this victory of the people‟s army. 42:14 It was true. Interviewer: What sort of a reception did you get when you arrived? You’re flying over there in a C-130, they land you at Hoe, do you go out on the ground, do you go out to the base by helicopter--how did you get out to the position? I was trucked up to the basecamp for our brigade and then helicoptered out. I went out actually, with our new battalion chaplain; he was going out to visit my unit. Interviewer: Now, was the post you were at, was that a battalion size post or brigade post, or what was it? Brigade, Camp Evans Interviewer: So, that’s what you were physically defending? 21 �No, that was—that was a base camp, in the lowlands, out near the coast. 43:02 Vietnam starts at this gorgeous, gorgeous coast, works its way through very fertile land, at least in our part of the country, and then goes immediately into very rugged mountains all the way through Laos, so our area was out in those mountains. The lowlands were well controlled by ourselves and the South Vietnamese Army. It was the highlands that were in contention, so I was helicoptered out to my unit. Interviewer: The Ripcord camp itself, I guess that’s what I was saying, that base was that a battalion base or brigade base or what was it? That was a battalion headquarters, it had one company of infantry, two artillery batteries, 105‟s and 155‟s, and a 4.2 mm mortar platoon, and had these quad fifties that were an invention in Vietnam, which was four, 50 Caliber barrels on one device that would fire simultaneously. 44:02 Interviewer: Of course, they had a version of that as far back as WWII. Yeah Interviewer: It was initially designed for anti-aircraft, but they could use them also as fire support for the ground troops. Right Interviewer: That’s not a whole lot of infantry to defend a position with. A company could do it. Interviewer: How many men in a company when it’s— Full strength? Interviewer: Or at least as full strength as you normally had? 22 �Well, a full strength company would have been a hundred and forty four. Most of our companies were a lot less than that, about half. At one point my company, later when I was a company commander, got down to seventeen and they sent us thirty-four replacements in one day, all at once, on Ripcord, and they said, “Get out of here”, and all we could do was say, “Okay, new guy, old guy, new guy, old guy”, so we put it-- and just got off the firebase. 45:00 Interviewer: Now, what was your first impression when you got to the firebase, when you arrived there? Actually, I went straight out to the field to my unit, so it was some time later, we were actually on a hilltop across from Ripcord, that I first beheld it and it‟s an interesting thing because it looks like an industrialized hilltop in the middle of the forest, because the first thing you do is denude it of trees, and then all kinds of wire and obstacles around it, gun emplacements for the infantry and then the artillery tubes sticking up on top. It was prehistoric looking, almost, out in the midst of that forest. Interviewer: Where was your platoon when you joined it then? On some hill 46:00 Interviewer: So, they just helicoptered you out there? To a LZ, a landing zone Interviewer: Why did you have that particular assignment? I don‟t know that was luck of the draw by the time I got to the battalion and the prior platoon leader had been killed on the initial assault on firebase Ripcord. That company was the initial assault and they got blown back. It was secured later by a different company, so I replaced the young guy who was killed. 23 �Interviewer: What impression did you have of the men in the platoon you joined? I loved these guys. One of the things I really loved, I was never in the all-volunteer army, I‟m sure these are great soldiers, and I loved draftees. They would speak up, they would object, they would question, and I would answer them and I always thought that was kind of healthy. 47:06 One of the things I learned at West Point was, that when the Hessians were supporting us, I mean when the Prussians, supporting us in the revolution, one of the things that most infuriated them was that American soldiers always wanted to know why we were doing what we were about to do, which is something they were totally unaccustomed to and there later testimony was, they felt that was the strength of the Continental Army, and I agree. I just enjoyed their company. Interviewer: What approach did you take? You’re a new platoon commander, you have no combat experience, you’re joining a unit of men who’ve been in the field for a while, and how did you deal with them, or try to win them over? What did you do when you got there? To their great credit, they weren‟t out to test anybody; they were out to support me because we were all in this mess together. 48:00 There was a young sergeant E5, who was the platoon sergeant, who was extremely supportive and helpful, and because of him we managed. Interviewer: And you had the good sense to listen to him. You bet, and my company commander coached me and I‟d been training for six years for this job, so I knew a lot about how to conduct myself and I knew that being respectful of them was the way to be. 24 �Interviewer: Because one of the sorts of stereotypes of the whole Vietnam situation is that you get these newly minted officers, Lieutenants, coming in and because they’re Lieutenants and they’re in charge, they just go and do things their way. How common do you think that actually was? Not terribly, I think once you get out there you realize the geo-politics has nothing to do with what were up to here. My aim was for them to survive. 49:03 I felt sorry for them. I volunteered for this and they got stuck in it, and I wanted to do the best I could to make sure they could make it home. Now, you can‟t be reluctant, because that could make matters worse, but you can also avoid trouble where you can. Now our method when moving around--dawn would arrive, we‟d have a mission to get from here over to there and see what you can find. So, we‟d wake up in the morning and cook up some instant coffee and just start firing artillery where we were going to go and airstrikes, I mean, we spent huge amounts of money for an afternoon walk to get from here to there. So, that‟s a way that you can see to protect these guys, clear the enemy out before you head into where they are. 50:02 Interviewer: Did you have occasions to go into places that weren’t so clear, kind of into jungle proper and that kind of thing? Oh, very much Interviewer: How did you operate when you were doing that? How did you deal with the men? How did we deploy them? Interviewer: Yeah 25 �In a platoon size unit you‟d have a point element, a point man, and a slack man, just back from the point man, and then there was a choice about the next few people, typically the platoon leader would be no farther back than the fifth guy and then you‟ve got your radio operator who, when there is line of sight, is a pretty clear indicator of who the Lieutenant is. We wore no rank in the field, but you could figure it out if you could observe the unit and I think that why, in all wars, this one included, there was high mortality. The fellow that replaced me was killed and then when I was promoted to Captain, I replaced a guy who was killed and the fellow that replaced me survived. 51:05 So, there was high mortality in the junior officer ranks. Interviewer: Do you think it helped you to have been in Germany for a year first? So you were in a position where you were commanding, you were used to working with enlisted men and dealing with them acting like Americans, so you had experience on a practical level that was working with these guys and getting along with them and still expecting to do that and then that works that way for you Interviewer: Yes, I‟m sure it helped. Berlin was very interesting because they handpicked the enlisted men, and because what we could not have was some international incident with Russians, so there tended to be a lot of—I had a college graduate driving my Jeep, you know, a lot of really interesting, broadly experienced, young soldiers and plenty who were returning from Vietnam. Interviewer: Describe a little bit how the situation developed there at Ripcord. 52:05 Now when you got there were things relatively quiet at that point? We were operating in platoon size units and there was regular contact. We did—various elements would contact the enemy fairly regularly. We would then sometimes group into 26 �a company size unit and most of the time we were just searching through the areas looking to make contact with the enemy. Interviewer: What were they doing? They were moving supplies and harassing us largely. Ambushes, and that sort of thing and that began to grow over that period of time and they would go from very small units to fair sized units. Night attacks on firebases. I sat on a hill one night and just watched a different firebase just light up with a major attack on it, and we were just sitting there, a beautiful night, starlit, just watching the show. 53:09 Interviewer: Did the artillery at your base support them? Oh yeah, and the air, we had these C-130‟s that were modified with quad fifties, and mini-guns that would fire like a hose of machine gun fire, and they would get a wing on a place like that and they would hose it down, just hose it down. And, of course, the defensive positions had a thing—have you ever heard the term fougas? Interviewer: Yes It was a mix of oil and jet fuel in a barrel with a claymore mine behind it and you detonate the claymore and it would shoot a flame out into the wire to burn people attacking. 54:00 So, there would be a lot of explosives going off at a time like that. This just built and built and built until we were in fairly regular contact, all of us, all the time. Interviewer: Were you still able to go off the base and conduct patrols? Oh yes Interviewer: So you weren’t being held in the perimeter the whole time? 27 �No, we were always out, building our own perimeters at night, and there were a couple of events. There was a Hill 805, so called by its elevation. I was there several times and one night, listening on the radio, while a different company was on this hill and being attacked and they kept them there and they were attacked again, and they kept them there and they were attacked again, and then they moved them out, and they moved a different company up there. They made it okay, and we were assigned to go up and take their place. 55:08 As we came up on top of this hill, they were going off of the hill, and their lead element was ambushed. So, the first thing you do in a scenario like that, is you call for fire support, gunships and artillery, and the best way to do that is to get the long antenna up on the radio for the best reception. We were busying ourselves and we‟re looking over here and here comes—it looked like something out of a cartoon, a black cloud with lightning going out of it like this, otherwise a beautiful day. We were looking at it and we thought, “That is coming right at us”, and sure enough it did. 56:00 I was standing with one of the sergeants and the tree about twenty feet away just blew up, totally consistent with the rocket propelled grenades that the enemy would fire at us, so I figured that‟s what it was in that instant, but in the next instant I was doubled over at the waist and the sergeant next to me was sitting on the ground with his legs straight out in front of him and the guys from Bravo Company, who gathered around the long antenna, were all just all flat out on the ground. No medevac, because you could not see in that moment more than twenty feet, and the driving rain and this socked in environment. Interviewer: Was it a lightning strike in the tree? Yes, it was a lightning strike. We‟re standing around and the medics are running around with smelling salts, and basically we just waited and they came to, and they were okay 28 �and they shook it off and walked off the hill. 57:03 That was an interesting experience and for me, it felt like I‟d been punched in the gut and I doubled over. Interviewer: Now, when you’re out there on these patrols and you take casualties, people get hit, or whatever, what was the procedure? How would you deal with then? Get to a landing zone and get a medevac, and if you couldn‟t get to a landing zone, you would drop what was called a jungle penetrator from the medevac, which would hover and it would come down through the trees and you‟d strap the guy onto this penetrator and haul him back up. Medevac pilots were unbelievable. Interviewer: Were their helicopters basically targets for anybody on the ground? Yeah, and there was constant helicopter traffic, it was constant; you could always hear a blade somewhere. It was very interesting to do—they would often move us by helicopter. Our mission would be to get to this landing zone and then you‟re going to be choppered over there. 58:02 That was part of the principle of the division, was mobility to keep the enemy guessing, so you‟d get up on these LZ‟s and here come the helicopters, so you‟d wait to see if this was going to be a contested take off, and organize yourselves, get on these choppers, you know the young Lieutenant would always be on the first chopper in to the new location. The platoon sergeant on the last chopper out and then when you‟re going into these LZ‟s, they‟d always prep them with fire, artillery fire, often airstrikes and then as you‟re going in aerial gunships right alongside the first chopper, just firing and firing and just pouring fire into these LZ‟s, and it was exciting. When you‟d get to the LZ you couldn‟t exactly land because there were tree stumps, and so we‟d spend a fair amount of time airborne out of the chopper with these sixty-eight 29 �pound packs on our backs. 59:10 I used to say, “By the time we‟re forty, we‟re all going to have bad backs”, and I had a bad back by the time I was thirty. Interviewer: Now, was that kind of method for preparing, was that effective? I mean did you tend to not get much ground fire at least when you first showed up? Yeah, it was pretty effective and the enemy knew it was going to happen, so why would they volunteer to stand around for that, but every now and then you would get fire from another location and it would be hard to identify. Interviewer: Now, did the North Vietnamese have a lot of artillery and things like that, or heavier weapons? Yes, rockets and recoilless rifles, and they were superb soldiers and they had an ample supply of small arms, the RPD machine gun was a great machine gun and the AK47 automatic weapon. 0:07 They—their hand grenades were not as good as ours. I was wounded by one of their hand grenades and if it had been one of ours, I‟d have been killed, and then they started to bring more and more of that—heavy mortars, you could sense it coming into our area and Ripcord would take fire at all times. They had light mortars, I was standing on the helipad at Ripcord one night with a couple other young officers and we heard “poof, poof”, and we looked over and here were these black smoke things from the ineffectual mortars, and so the way you get at the time—we were just standing there, “Who cares”, unless it sounds like something heavier. Interviewer: When they were using heavier weapons, do you have any means of using counter battery fire? I mean, could you shoot back at them? 1:03 Yeah, you could—you‟re guessing a lot in that kind of terrain, in that kind of forest. We were certainly better equipped and we had these light observation helicopters, another 30 �bunch of crazy young guys flying these things, crazy. They would go “whoo” right down into those little valleys and they‟d look—“Oh, over there”, and they‟d fly away and then they‟d start to direct fire, but there‟s a very mobile enemy, they knew that was our mode and they‟d pick up and move out after firing a few rounds, usually ass this began to heat up. There‟s one thing in particular that I want to get on record, and that was, there was a time when—after I was in Alpha Company as a platoon leader, I was the Charlie Company commander and we were down to about thirty people, at this point. 2:08 We were sent on a mission to retrieve what was called a mechanical ambush. This was— mechanical ambushes would be set out away from a nighttime perimeter with a tripwire that would fire claymore mines, which fire pellets, ball bearings. Bravo Company had set one--they had been hustled out of that area before they could dismantle it, so they sent these guys from Bravo Company to us and we sent a patrol down to retrieve this ambush—they were ambushed, and we had a guy with three days left in country who was just blown in half by a RPG in that event. That was a real blow to the morale of our company because he was a very popular guy and very willing, he could have gotten out of there. 3:07 When they came back our medic had been wounded with them, our one medic, so now we have no medic. I reported this fact, so they sent us a new medic. So in that same afternoon in the passing of resupply and medevac‟ing comes this new medic. So, he was trotted over to me and I looked at him, and you know, medics weren‟t infantry men, but they were armed, and this guy had no weapon. I said, “Where‟s your weapon?” He said, “I don‟t carry one, I‟m a conscientious objector”, and this guy was for real. He was so innocent and so willing and I thought, “Oh, this—this is wrong” 4:01 Somebody, the system, is doing it to this guy; this guy could have been at Walter Reed 31 �or someplace, he would have been a great guy in a hospital, but no, they had to go and stick him in an infantry unit, an undermanned infantry unit, in a combat situation. I just thought it was horrific. Well, the next day our mission was—we were helicoptered right near Ripcord, there was a hill with an easy line of sight of Ripcord and the enemy was pouring fire into Ripcord from this hill [Hill 1000]. The day that the medic had shown up, on that day Delta Company had assaulted that hill, they had left two dead bodies on the hill, and had been repulsed. So, the idea was, Delta Company would go back up, retrieve those bodies, there was much done about retrieving bodies, which I never saw. 5:07 I figured if I‟m out there and I‟m twitching, I want everybody to do whatever they can. If I‟m dead, I don‟t want somebody else to get killed because I got killed, but there‟s something in the mentality, and I understand the theory, I just don‟t subscribe to it. Then we were to go around the base of the hill and come up behind this emplacement, so the two pronged attack. Well, they started prepping that hill first thing in the morning, everything, and Ripcord, they put the tubes at zero elevation and they were just firing rounds into it. They air struck it, gassed it, continued with every form of artillery, naval artillery, and we realized, this is an intense thing, so we left our normally heavy equipment in a secure spot at the foot of Ripcord and took off with just canteens and ammunition. 6:10 We worked our way around, got up on top of this hill, Delta company‟s coming up this way, and we started across, there was a saddle, you know—a high point here, Ripcord, and a high point here, which is where we gained, and we started across and just immediately, very, very heavy small arms fire, and we ended up in a bomb crater. In that first burst, one of the guys was just cut down, dead. This medic just walked out, he just walked out there. Now, that kid should not have been there. 7:02 32 �Anyone else would have had a greater sense of self-preservation than this young man did. He walked out there to help the guy and he got killed, “boom”, he lasted twenty four hours and it was wrong. So, there came a point where one of the other guys—we had another guy in the company who came this close to being a priest and decided he wasn‟t going to go all the way. A highly religious fellow, he still is, so as we‟re walking along the base of this hill, at the top of his voice, he‟s reciting The Lord‟s Prayer, I mean it was dramatic. Well, we‟re in the bomb crater and he takes his helmet puts it on a stick and peeks it up over these logs and the machine gun fire is right on it, so we were really stuck, because we had nothing but open space between us and them, and we were ordered to do it. 8:00 Actually, I got my sequence incorrect, it was when we were ordered to do it that we began the assault and it was so intense that‟s when the guy got cut down and that‟s when the medic walked out, and then we ducked back into this crater thinking about, “What are we doing here?” Delta Company was making no progress. Interviewer: Now, you’re in a situation where the Americans have been using fire power all the time, heavy weapons and so forth, now, you’re actually in a position where you found someone that’s shooting at you. At this point do you have air or artillery support? Well yes, except we were too close and that was one of the real tactical errors of this whole operation. You got Delta Company right there, and you got us right here, and so, air support, if it had come over us, might have shot us, might have shot them. 9:01 No matter how you looked at it, it would have come into us. While we were there trying to think, “What are we going to do now?” One of these little observation helicopters came in and our brigade S3 in the helicopter and he said, “You‟re being maneuvered on by a 33 �mass of enemy troops coming around behind us”, so then we got the order, “Ok, well get off”, thank God, so we started down the hill and I was, you know—the guys were going a little bit more, I was afraid, toward the maneuver element coming around behind us. I wanted to go more below the military crest, so the guys on top of the hill couldn‟t shoot us, so I was urging them this way, carrying two dead bodies, which are extremely heavy and unworkable—and hot, really hot. 10:06 The prep of this hill had been so intense that when you stepped on it, it came up over your ankles, and I was urging them to come this way and there was a moment when I realized, “Oh my God, I stuck my head up too far, and I thought, “I‟m dead”, but I ducked and I wasn‟t. We ended up then back at the LZ that we came in on grouped with Delta Company, and my battalion commander came in on his chopper and he jumped out and said, “When can you be ready to go back up?” And I was just angry, so I responded angrily and I said, “That is crazy, how are we going to go back up under these circumstances when these guys are exhausted?” I mean, they had sweat every drop of water they possibly could. 11:03 I mean, hard to walk after a day and it‟s late now and he‟s thinking about going back up, so that‟s where he and I started to get crosswise. Another interesting thing, then we went into a joint perimeter with Delta Company and my big pleasure was boiling water and making instant coffee. You did this on this small can with holes cut in it. Did you talk to guys about this? Interviewer: Yes And then with heat tablets in it and then a pear can, which is a larger can, with the lid crunched as a handle. So, I was boiling the water and I was leaning against my rucksack, and during this, from Ripcord, they‟re firing direct fire over us just to continue to suppress the hill here. 12:01 And you hear ttttt,ttttt, shrapnel going through the trees, 34 �and my pear can shifted and I said, “Oh, no”, and I leaped forward to get my pear can, and when I did a piece of shrapnel, about that big, came wheeee, and whacked right against my rucksack. Interviewer: Right where you had been sitting. Right where my chest was, and that is the essence of combat, you know, you‟re dead, you‟re fine, it‟s amazing, the tolerances—why--and this is where survival guilt comes from in my opinion. “How come I made it and the guy next to me didn‟t? Was it skill?” It‟s not, its pure random luck. Interviewer: How far into your time there, at Ripcord, do those events take place? That was July Interviewer: You’re getting close to the end then, at that point? Yes, it was 13:01 Interviewer: Did you get wounded there or did that come later? It was prior, when I was a platoon leader, and in that instance we were in a company size perimeter and then we were the point platoon, so we took off down this ridgeline and we‟re ambushed. Point man is killed right away, and what you do in that circumstance, basically—first you get out of this damn pack, because we carried so much with us, water, ammunition, food and all very heavy, and I went down on my back. I think this is also interesting about combat, because other guys have told me this kind of thing, as I lurched forward, I was seen watching grass just jump, jumping next to me, and it was machine gun fire, and I saw something out of the corner of my eye. 14:03 And I knew in that instant it was a chicom hand grenade, because they had this stem that came up out of them that looked like a can with a stem, where ours were more like a baseball. So, I 35 �knew it was a chicom grenade, I knew I was going to be hurt, I figured I‟d be okay, and this is all as I‟m moving—so the world gets so slow, unbelievable, and this grenade went into a little bush and when it blew, it was sheared by the earth and it hit me like this. I use to bitch every day, because I wore glasses then, about keeping my glasses clean. It was just a game I played, trying to keep my glasses clean, but I bitched about them all the time. Well, these fragments hit my glasses and my helmet. 15:00 One of them nicked me here, in the side of the face, and one went straight into me—hit me in the head and knocked me for a loop. Head wounds bleed like mad, so my glasses were all covered with blood, and I knew I‟d survive, but you medevac a head wound because you‟re not sure, so I did get medevaced, patched up, and then sent back to my platoon, so that was that event. I‟ve heard people tell me—I had a guy tell me one time, he looked and there was an enemy soldier right there and he saw the spin of the round and he missed it, and he killed the guy. I had that experience in a traffic event one time where I was doing 360‟s on 1-96 our here, just watching the other drivers, and it‟s weird. Interviewer: Sometimes when I try to tell people about how this process of interviewing veterans works, I’ll talk to combat veterans and they’ll talk very casually about gun fire and its effects and things like that, and they’ll treat it just like driving on an icy road in Michigan and you’re the first person to actually do that. 16:11 You mentioned at this point where you’re in that bad situation there, and the battalion commander came in and so forth, and that you were kind of at odds with him. Had you and he been working together for that period of time, or was he new? 36 �No, he wasn‟t new; he was there when I got there. He was a good man—you know I felt very badly for that field grade rank. They had by then invested most of their adult lives in their career, and a guy like that is given six months to make your name, and I felt that was very inappropriate, but there are these guys stuck in these situations. 17:01 His commander had six months, and his commander had six months, and this pressure comes down and down and down for results, for something sexy to write up about the unit, for body count, for whatever it was, and it just felt like it was, collectively, we had our eye off the ball, so to speak, and by this time I did question the purpose of the war. I said to him one night on a firebase, I said, “Don‟t you think”, I thought we were just having a conversation, “Don‟t you think that if there were an election held today, that Hoe Chi Minh would win?” Guys who were boxed in like this could not allow that kind of thought, and I was just musing out loud, so that deepened his, I realized later, his dislike for me. 18:08 He was killed on Ripcord, of course, right on the last day, during the evacuation. Interviewer: You described that ended it. How was it—what was it that led to the evacuation of Ripcord? We were overwhelmed by numbers. We were a brigade and they had three divisions. They wanted us gone from that area, so they really committed to it. Interviewer: How much of your brigade, at the time, would actually be out there, just one battalion? No, three battalions Interviewer: Three battalions, so, at a certain point you had all three battalions at Ripcord, or in the immediate vicinity? 37 �We had two, and one was more focused on lowland security, so we really had two who were out there and we were—there was a thing called operational control, OPCON, we had a couple companies from another battalion, OPCON. 19:08 In fact, five of my classmates were killed in that battle. Interviewer: Did you eventually get to the point where you were getting large scale conventional assaults? Yeah, and that was really the—the indirect fire really picked up at Ripcord. By this time I‟m at the brigade headquarters, I‟ve been banished by this guy. He came out one day and said, “You‟re out of here”, and I said, “What are you talking about?” He said, “I think the men have lost confidence in you”, and I said, “Why don‟t you ask them?” he said, “Don‟t give me this, go”, and there‟s my replacement standing there. I will wrap around to this, but as I got in the helicopter I felt terrible, but I never got to say, “See ya” to these guys. 20:05 So, I had been banished to brigade headquarters, and I‟m standing in the tactical operations center, an underground bunker, in a safe area basically, and I‟m listening to this radio traffic, just the intensity growing, and then the decision—I‟m standing there when the decision is made and we got to get everybody out of there, so that became a real logistical issue. The Captain, who had been an enlisted man for years was on his second tour, he was our S3 heir, he‟s the who warned us we were being maneuvered on, he managed this whole thing from the air, he was brilliant. Interviewer: So he, basically, had to lay down fire support to keep the enemy away long enough for you guys to get into the helicopters and get out? Right, and that didn‟t work so well on Ripcord. 21:01 There were choppers shot down, and the battalion commander was running his chopper when a mortar round hit and killed 38 �him and the guy with him. That‟s when this fellow, Bob Kalsu, who had played for the Buffalo Bills was killed. They put thermite grenades down the artillery tubes and thermite grenades just burn with incredible heat and fuse the block, and getting the artillery guys out of there, I mean it was an aerial ballet under intense fire that this fellow, Fred Spaulding, he ran it, so there‟s this Captain really running the show, but, the Generals up in the higher level. Interviewer: So, what did you do after that was over? After Ripcord was over? Interviewer: Yes I settled—I was the evening briefer for the brigade commander, I was in the intelligence office at the brigade headquarters. 22:05 And the rainy season came--it‟s in the dry season when supplies and stuff can really be moved and that‟s why they needed us gone, because the rainy season was coming, and the rainy season tends to be less contact moving around out there, booby traps, the occasional—a lot more booby traps in the wet weather, and the occasional contact, and the South Vietnamese Army moved heavily into our area then. We were doing a lot of coordinating with them, so I rode in a lot of helicopters, went to a lot of basecamps, and ran radios. Interviewer: What sort of impression did you have of the South Vietnamese Army, or the people you dealt with? I didn‟t deal with them much, what I was aware of was that their hygiene was horrible. On our firebase rats were a terrible problem and I thought rats were city critters, but they‟re everywhere. 23:08 At Ripcord, for example, you would use these sleeves that artillery tubes came in and fill them with earth, or something and make them part of the 39 �security of the emplacements. Well, they would use them for garbage, and pee in them and otherwise—it was pretty nasty, so there was a time our brigade headquarters, me included, were on a firebase that was secured by ARVN‟s, and it was an ARVN artillery battery, and, man, I did notice the rat population was much higher on that firebase than at Ripcord, or others I had been on, or basecamp, for that matter, but I couldn‟t judge their competence, I never really worked with them in the field. 24:03 I think there was a lot of hope, by then, that the war would somehow find an end other than what ultimately happened, and both countries were running low of young men, the north and the south, so probably the quality of the ARVN Army went down, but I don‟t truly know. Interviewer: So, how much longer did you stay in Vietnam after Ripcord was finished? Another five months Interviewer: And it was basically this kind of duty at that point? Yeah, on radios talking to the battalions, doing briefing on a big—in another bunker with a big illuminated map. Interviewer: Right, and once you were doing that, did you have a better sense of, really, what the overall picture, or scheme of thing was and what was happening in the war, or were you still kind of just focused on the sector that you were responsible for? Yeah sure, and then I was just counting my days. 25:02 That‟s what kept people sane in Vietnam, was counting the days. Interviewer: One of the observations that gets made a lot about Vietnam, and how things were handled, has to do with the system of rotating men in and out of there 40 �and its effect on unit morale cohesion and things like that, because people got sent in and out individually rather than as whole units. Do you think that was a problem, or did it have benefits that balanced out the problems with it? Well, I think to some—I think the way you put it is pretty good, I do. There was a problem to it, but at the company and platoon level, the interest was to make this person competent, not maybe my pal, because he‟s likely to get killed and I don‟t want to lose another friend, but generally, I thought the troops assimilated the new people really, really well, because it was in everyone's best interest, and they all knew they were once that guy. 26:02 So, I don‟t think that was a great detriment, and when the world war got going that‟s how it went, replacements came and went, so I don‟t think that was any great detriment. Interviewer: How long did it take to get acclimated, and to learn enough of the ropes to have a reasonable chance, as good of a chance as anybody else of surviving? Pretty quick--I remember the first night that I was with my platoon sort of staring into the dark, and it wasn‟t totally dark and you can convince yourself that something is moving, and there‟s enough stuff crawling around that there can be sound effects. There were two critters that were most interesting, when you see like a centipede running around by the toilet. 27:03 The centipedes were about this big and they had this brilliant, brown shinny shell and orange legs and huge pinchers. I mean, if a guy got bitten by one of those you would have to medevac him. I got up one morning and there was a little baby on my arm and I flicked it off and “Ow, that hurt”, and I‟m thinking, “Whoa”, it‟s going down my arm and up my arm and I‟m sitting there thinking, “Now, should I be doing something about this?” After about an hour or so, it subsided, but that was an infant, and 41 �so we spent a lot of time hacking those things in half with the trenching tools. Then there were these lizards, and I never saw one, but you would hear them at night. Have other people told you about these lizards? Interviewer: No The “fuck you” lizards? Interviewer: No That‟s what they said, “fuck you, fuck you”, like that and they‟d be in the trees and around. 28:04 You could swear, the first night that you‟re there, that somebody‟s out there yelling at you, you know. The night they gave us twice as many replacements as we had seasoned guys, there was a lot going on and we got into it and we barely made it to a place, by nightfall, to get into a perimeter. We were very disorganized and one of the new guys was spooked and he threw a grenade and it hit a tree and bounced back, so you could think it was actually incoming, and that was really a disconcerting night. I had to just yell and you wouldn‟t normally do that to everyone. To just settle down, this is just—quit throwing hand grenades, you‟ll know it when you see it. 29:02 We were in a place that was in sort of line of sight from Ripcord, and the quad fifties started firing out in the trees and came right into our position, shooting up the trees and everything, so that freaked these poor guys out—freaked me out, but I mean, but at least I knew to get down in a hole. We were shot by everything except naval gun fire, I think. You know we were shot by—we took friendly fire from just about everything, because you can‟t control it. We never took a casualty from friendly fire, but it can “pucker” you when that kind of thing happens. You asked me a question and I digressed. 42 �Interviewer: Actually you were doing fine. You get to the end of all this now, and your time of your tour is finished okay, so describe, sort of the departure. 30:00 Well, while I was in Vietnam I said to myself, “I‟ve got almost three years left of my commitment”, and by then I was bitter enough that I knew, “I‟m not going to do this for a career”, and in fact, the only thing I can think of worse than the army in Vietnam would be the army at Fort Benning, the infantry I mean. So, I said, “What is the wimpiest thing that the army‟s got? Ah, the Adjutant General Corps.”. They put out the post newspaper, they lead tours, so I wrote a letter to the branch and I requested a branch transfer, and they sent it back and they said, “Sorry son you don‟t have any applicable experience”, and I said, “Well, of course I don‟t”, but, I thought, “Okay, the Transportation Corps., even better, because they actually do something”. 31:00 So, I wrote to them and they said, “Welcome to the Transportation Corps”, so when I got back and took a little leave, then branch transferred the Transportation Corps. , so I went down to this little pastoral post in southern Virginia, home of the Transportation Corps. To the officer advance course and I got my Vietnam stuff and my Ranger tab and my 101st patch and nobody messed with me, because they were pretty well—guys in the Transportation Corps., not that they didn‟t run risks, but most didn‟t, and so, you just stay away from---you give berth to a guy who clearly had combat experience, so it was sort of like a protective shield that I had. From that course I was assigned to a place in D.C. It was the worldwide headquarters of transportation for the military. 32:06 It was run by Civilians from WWII, and they did not want the military—they way outnumbered us, and they did not want us messing with their systems. Interviewer: So, what did you do? 43 �Nothing Interviewer: You were just decoration? Yes, just hung out in a room with other desks and career civil servants. One night one of these civil servants—these trade magazines would go around with a buck slip on it and you‟re supposed to acknowledge that you looked at it and I looked at him toward the end of the business day and he took one of these magazines and stuck it in the center drawer, and he looked up and I was looking at him and he said, “Just so I‟ll have something to do tomorrow”, so basically we went for coffee and went to lunch. I was under the wing of a retired Air Force Colonel, who was one of these functionaries who showed me D.C. 33:04 I wore civilian clothes and one day a week I would wear my uniform. Interviewer: How long did you do that? A year and a half Interviewer: Did that finish out your time in the service then? Yeah Interviewer: Did your wife come and live with you then, in that area? Yes, and, you know, the aftermath of all of it is interesting, to me I think, because my wife---by then we‟d moved from D.C. to New York, and we were both hired by IBM at the same time, the first time a man and a woman cohabitated at an IBM training facility, and our managers had to get involved to make it happen. She knew I was—and I live today, I believe, because she knew that I was a different person, because I‟d known her almost all my life, and she began to question me, and I was having nightmares and that sort of thing and in the middle of the night she made me tell her. 34:03 She made me tell her the story and that‟s a first step in the whole process. There came a time when I 44 �met a fellow named Bobby Muller. Have you ever heard of Bobby? Bobby and Kerry and those guys were Vietnam veterans against the war, and Bobby decided to work inside the system and he founded the Vietnam Veterans of America. He‟s the guy who led it to the point of federal charter status. At this time he‟s in lower Manhattan, in an office full of boxes of junk, and a guy I knew said, “You ought to go and talk to this guy”, so I dropped in on him one day and he---interesting man, in a wheelchair. He was in the ward that was featured in a cover article in Life magazine in the Bronx VA Hospital with Ron Kovic and the dripping pipes and the rats and all that stuff, the spinal cord ward 35:06 Bobby—tremendous energy, and he gave me this piece of paper with these lists of behaviors on it, and he told me about guys he knows wearing pieces of their uniform and talking like they‟re in Vietnam. I went home and said to my wire, “Man, I talked to this guy today and he was telling me about these guys he knows—wow”, and I gave her the piece of paper and she looked at it and she said, „Well, which one of these aren‟t you?” I said, “Give me that”, “No”, “Yes”, “Well, maybe you got a point there”. Interviewer: Were you getting any kind of, sort of, support from the military? Were they offering counseling or anything like that, or was it more like everything will be fine, you’re back now? No, I mean they figured that and you know, I don‟t want to blame, I blamed at the time. I was angry and I was alienated, but when you look back at it you can look at a continuum. 36:04 I know Native Americans when there were societies of Native Americans that when warriors went out and engaged in combat, they weren‟t allowed back in the village until they went through a process. You take the Civil War—a person who could not go forward on the battle field was called a coward, and by WWI we had a more elaborate 45 �theory of “shell shock”, pressure and all, and no matter how you cut it, when a guy can‟t go forward it‟s as though he‟s been shot. WWII we had a term, phycology had occurred between WWI and WWII and we had the term “combat fatigue” by Korea they came up with that point system, which worked pretty well in Korea to keep psychological casualties off the battle field. 37:01 By Vietnam they had “DEROS”, date of estimated rotation from overseas, which worked. The day you got there you knew the day you were going to leave, so all you had to do is just contain yourself, and it really did keep psychological casualties off the battle field. Interviewer: You knew it would be limited and it wasn’t indefinite, so in that sense, perhaps the whole rotation system made a certain amount of sense. A tremendous amount of sense Interviewer: Better than leaving the same unit in place for as long as it had to be there and you just stayed with that unit, at least you had a chance of getting out. Right---so it did work from that perspective. Interviewer: What kind of job did you take at IBM? Large systems marketing representative Interviewer: How did you wind up with that job? A guy I knew in the army had been hired by IBM and he knew I was thinking about getting out and he called and said, “Why don‟t you come up to New York and I‟ll introduce you to a couple guys”. Interviewer: Did you know anything about computers at that point? Yeah, I knew—actually ours was an applied engineering degree and we were working with computers. 38:03 I never was fascinated by them, but I was--- 46 �Interviewer: You had enough familiarity, or whatever, and enough training that you could go in there and understand, basically, what you were doing? Really, they didn‟t want you to know too much, they wanted to teach you what they wanted you to know, so there was a lot of training, both technical and marketing. We figured, if this isn‟t a life career, at least it‟s a great segue from nine years in the army, back into the world. Interviewer: Did you stay with that or did you move on to something else? Four years I stayed there, and that was when I was really discovering that I had a lot of unresolved conflict and I had this point of view, I had made this decision, I have problems with authority, so I never butted heads with people, but I worked around them. I‟d be sitting in a meeting talking to people, you know, sitting in a business meeting looking at a point about halfway between me and the other guy, reworking, “gosh, if I‟d only done it this way”, and that kind of thing. 39:10 Having startle response—I was walking down the street one day with my wife and her girlfriend and a sound went off and I was on the ground. Our friend thought it was funny, and it was, but that sort of thing stays with you and just this whole reworking, reworking, and then becoming alienated, you know, I was really disgusted with the government trying to give-- the state that I was from was paying a bonus and I tried to turn it down and they hounded me so much that I took the money, it was three hundred dollars, or something like that. The IBM years were great, it was a wonderful company, and they treated us very, very well. 40:04 I learned a tremendous amount, but I just wasn‟t engaged in it. Interviewer: Incidentally, where were you actually working for them? In Manhattan 47 �Interviewer: So you decide you need to move on to something else at that point? So, what do you go onto from there? Well, I‟d gotten myself into therapy during this time, and I decided I wanted to be a „shrink”. So, I got enrolled at Columbia in a graduate program for counseling, and I had been working out with a guy who owned—a kind of remarkable guy who kind of invented personal training and his gym was the gym to the stars, you know, Arthur Ashe, Billie Jean King and guys from the Giants and the Jets would rehab there. 41:07 Well, I had been a paying customer and I said, “I‟m quitting IBM and I can‟t afford it anymore”, and he said, “Well, why don‟t you work here?” So, that became what I was really doing, was working half a day for him while I pretended to go to graduate school, because I realized fairly early on I was working on my own case. Then my wife and I decided, “Let‟s get out of New York”, and we sold this condominium that we owned in the suburbs, we had long since been living in the city, and went on a trip to California. While we were out there, we were in the San Francisco area, we saw a lot of information going on about people reaching out to veterans, and we said, “What the heck, let‟s move out there”. So, we went back to New York, put some furniture in storage, put a bunch of book in boxes, went out to JFK and moved. 42:08 We got a futon and rented a houseboat in Sausalito and we said, “Our lives are now about unraveling this post war upset. Interviewer: When was this roughly? 1980 or 1981, and it turns out that San Francisco is just a wildly political place, and so you take the veteran subset and it‟s that way too. In 1967 I remember being at Fort Hood on a training thing and every night, in the officers‟ club, someone kept playing, “If 48 �you‟re going to San Francisco be sure to wear some flowers in your hair”, and I used to think, “San Francisco, “flower power”, all those people, it‟s kind of interesting”. Well, I ended up in a vet center rap group in Haight- Ashbury, so I finally made it; I‟m a “hippie” in San Francisco. 43:04 Because of the people I fell in with, there was a top forty radio station in San Francisco that had run afoul with the FCC and had to do community service, and they picked veterans. So, I get trotted up and I‟m working for minimum wage for this radio station, to put on an event at Fort Mason in San Francisco, which is a port through which GI‟s shipped out and back in WWII and Korea. Now a bunch of public interest groups—so we did this big event down there. It was a job fair, music, art, “Country Joe McDonald” lived in Berkley and he was a great supporter of veterans, and he was on an aircraft carrier off Vietnam. I then segued from that job to a job in the Reagan Administration, which wanted to do away with as much of the VA as possible. 44:07 Their theory was, “Find veterans out here in the world who are succeeding and get them to do volunteer efforts and support to those who aren‟t doing so well”. I was good for that because I‟m a West Point graduate, verbal, IBM trained, I got into a lot of corporate environments out there, crazy guys, functioning at a very high level, so this was the misapprehension that I think the whole program had. You‟re either okay, or you‟re drooling in your socks, and there is this entire continuum, and plenty of people who are functioning at a very high level who aren‟t okay at all, so I got a lot out of talking to these people and sort of opening them to the idea, principle idea, that this kind of upset is predictable and normal and transcend able. 45:10 There is a way through it, but it doesn‟t just happen with time. Witness the WWII veterans who just came bilging out in horrific numbers when “Saving Private Ryan” hit the theaters. They had been 49 �sitting on this for so long and no one wanted to hear it, that‟s the difference, nothing. This experience does this to a sane person, the crazy people don‟t experience it, but you‟ve got to work your way through it. The guy who introduced me to Bobby Muller was a psychologist; he had worked with a lot of veterans. He had a theory that I subscribe to, and I‟ve handed this article out to a lot of people, and that is—you‟ve got the diagnosis, diagnostic manual that describes post-traumatic stress disorder as people who cannot function. 46:06 Then you‟ve got the rest of us who have unresolved conflict, and it affects intimacy, the ability to get along in the world, but not at the level of can‟t function and most of us are in that category. The way to transcend it, the best way, the model, is to be among others, who shared the experience, communicate about it, and take on some constructive activity. That‟s where all these memorials came from, I believe and it was a very healthy thing. I wasn‟t so focused on tangible things; I was focused on just alerting people to this. I felt my job was to tell them what this is and that something can be done about it, and hope that they would take the direction. My territory was northern California; I saw a lot of places, a lot of people, and a lot of circumstances. 47:08 It never really amounted to much programmatically in helping people, but it did awaken a fair number of people. One guy told me he didn‟t kill himself because I‟d told him how to predict, and this guy was—he taught phycology at the college level. So, no one ever presented it to anyone in this way. They‟re still not doing it properly I believe, but at least they tell people when they‟re getting out now that this could occur, but when you‟re young and you‟re tough somebody‟s got to come after you to get you reprogrammed, so to speak, so o it‟s a long, long process. My next job, when that was drying up, my wife and I looked and we weren‟t finished yet. 48:02 We saw there was 50 �an opening in Seattle for the director of what was The Seattle Veterans Action Center, and it was one of the really old line, store front, counseling centers, national, Urban League and National Council of Mayors, and it was the one thing we set out to do, was to get that job, and we got it, so we moved to Seattle. I managed that place, and principally what I did, was I publicized it. We had a lot of interesting—it brought a lot of attention to it, and I learned a tremendous amount. The first thing I was in, with the radio station, they put on a concert for us, Bill Graham, remember Bill Graham? So, they had a great relationship with Bill Graham and he did an evening at the Moscone Center to benefit our little 501C3. 49:00 Jefferson Starship, Grateful Dead, Santana, Boz Scaggs, and Joe McDonald, so we walked out of there with 200,000.00 that night, so some of that was back pay that I was owed, but most of it went to support other grass roots organizations, that was our purpose, to support these grass roots organizations. I‟m bouncing, but when I was in that center, this rap group, the guy who was assigned to be our facilitator, was a guy who‟d had his arm shot off and reconnected, and on a prior occasion had been the sole survivor of his unit. This guy was not facilitator material, he was group member material, and I didn‟t know I was thrown in with these guys who were very, sort of, charged. Nobody wanted to tell them what to do or anything and I didn‟t know that. 50:03 I‟m in the group, I like these guys, but nobody would touch us, so we, one night, said, “Mike, we‟ve decided you‟re not the facilitator anymore, you‟re in the group”, so we became this leaderless group sitting around talking, smoking dope, in the rap center. What I began to realize was, what people do, as they tell the story over, and over, and over again, it almost never varies. It never gets on to, “This is all my nickel analysis”, it never gets on to, “What decisions did you make about yourself as a result? Like, my two 51 �best friends died, so I‟ll never love, because when I do they‟re taken away from me”. No wonder people come back from these wars and can‟t form an intimate relationship, or don‟t get close to their kids, or go down in the basement at night, whatever it is they do. 51:05 In my case, I think I have trouble with authority, that‟s the decision I made about myself, so if you don‟t get on to expression in that level and get onto yourself, you don‟t get through it. That‟s where that model of, at least take something on, and seems to aid. One of the guys in the group actually had been in my unit a year prior, at Hamburger Hill. He was a buck sergeant and he was the son of a Colonel. He basically, and more or less said, he‟s committed to a life of misery as a gesture to those who didn‟t survive. I said, “You know, Brian that just doesn‟t make sense. You would have wanted the guys to survive so they could be miserable?” 52:07 I said, “I like the idea that I would lead the life I would have wished for them, because I want out of this, because I can‟t stand what this is doing to me”, and he was a little offended at that. I never knew what became of Brian, but I hope he surmounted it, but generating this point of view is really what worked for me and my wife, and so there did come a time when we felt like we were really on top of that, and of course, we had gone flat broke during this whole process, so we decided to move back to Michigan and start a whole different phase of our lives. I really do think, and I credit my wife mostly, but I really do think, for me, this is now the best thing that ever happened to me. 53:06 Interviewer: So, what are you doing now? I‟m in the real estate sales business. Interviewer: It’s not the best time to be in that right now. 52 �Oh no, but I had some good years and I will again, but you know, and I say what I do is, “I listen to wealthy people complain about their money”, because they think that really matters, and to some extent I sort of float like a bug on the surface of a consumer economy, because it all looks a little bit like a joke to me, but you know, I do an honest professional job. I just think drawing lines on the earth, and saying I own it, is a little bit comical. Interviewer: One of the standard questions in doing this sort of interview, and you get around to the close, is to ask veterans something along the lines of—How do you think your time in the service affected you as a person, or whatever, and a lot of the WWII vets and things like that, that often hasn’t necessarily been touched on. 54:08 It seems to me much of the course of this interview had pretty answered much of that question. If you were going to try to, sort of pull it together and say, overall what effect did that whole military experience have on you, or how would you characterize it, do you have a way of saying that, or expressing it? Well, it made me who I am, and I‟m happy with who I am. If I had not gone to West Point—when I showed up I was seventeen, I turned eighteen and they started beating my mother‟s door down, “Where is this guy? Why isn‟t he down here registering for the draft?” she said, “He‟s in the army”, “Oh bologna”, well that went on for a while until they settled that, so looking back on it, I figure I would have taken my brother's job at the windshield wiper factory and then been drafted. 55:03 Now, I could type like a demon, so I probably would have been one of these stories—about ready to ship out and they said, “Can anybody type?” But, I might have been a snuffy private and wiped out early on in Vietnam, so I feel like the army saved me, oddly enough, and I got to be around 53 �remarkable people and learned a tremendous amount from the people I was around, so I look back very fondly on the whole experience. If I hadn‟t been drafted, if I could have gone to Indiana University, I would have spent the first semester trying to get into a fraternity, the second semester on probation, and then been drafted. Instead, they locked me in my room and made me study. So, generally speaking, the army experience I value tremendously and I feel sorry for people who don‟t have something like it, and which is why I feel strongly about a national service sort of component, because most people got a tremendous amount out of it. 56:10 You get out there, they cut all your hair off, put you all in the same outfit, and now, who are you? Better said, you start taking everyone else for who they are and not what they look like, it‟s a wonderful experience, so I feel really lucky that it all went the way it did, even though it was really painful for a fair number of years there. Interviewer: Well thank you for coming in and taking the time to talk to us. Thank you, I‟m glad to yak. 54 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilcoxJ Title A name given to the resource Wilcox, Jeffrey (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wilcox, Jeffrey Description An account of the resource Jeffrey Wilcox was born in New York and moved to Gary, Indiana as a youth. After high school, he attended West Point, and graduated in 1968. He was then assigned to an Army unit that was stationed in Berlin. He stayed there for a year, and was then shipped off to Vietnam. He joined the 101st Airborne Division, and operated for some time in the Ripcord Fire Support base. There, he frequently encountered the enemy, getting a minor wound in the process. After Vietnam, he spent a year and a half in the Transport Corps in Washington DC. After his time in the service, he worked for various different veterans support and advocacy groups on the west coast. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e35c3bda2fa9ee9ca566b72f11b7a73d.mp3 d6f2fb035cfdccdda4b725a639d81fe4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0f649cdb184e65407f609246b7f505a8.pdf 7d6c043319e216cef561e6d43872790b PDF Text Text GV043-07 Connected Exhibit Interviews Interviewee: Elyse Wild Interviewers: Cara Cadena, Gayle Schaub Date: April 19, 2016 Elyse: 00:12 I started Grand Valley the fall of 2015, right before I turned 28. I started going to GRCC when I was 23. I actually dropped out of high school and spent a few years working at Spectrum Health, third shift for a while and I never thought that I would ever make it to college and on my shifts at the hospital, sometimes I would look at Grand Valley’s website or other college websites and kind of dream about getting an education, so when I finally started Grand Valley in the fall it was a pretty big deal for me. It was something I’d been thinking about for more than 10 years and to finally be here was pretty exciting. I work – I’ve always worked full-time – so I’m a part-time student, but I don’t think I would value my education as much if I had started right after high school when I was 18. I love every second that I’m in all of my classes. I try to take advantage of every opportunity that I have here. After spending so many years working in a field that I didn’t enjoy and just not thinking that I was…you know, when I was 15 or 16 years old I was told by a lot of the adults around me that if I didn’t, you know, get my act together, I wasn’t going be anything, or I wasn’t, certainly wasn’t going to get into college. So everything that I get to experience here at Grand Valley is a pretty big deal, and it’s pretty important to me. Cara: That’s great. So, you went to CC, did you say? Elyse: 1:56 Yeah. I went to GRCC for 2 ½ years. I went through the summer. I always took summer courses to get through a little faster. Gayle: Wow. What's your major? Did you say? Elyse: Journalism. Cara: Journalism, minoring in German Elyse: In German, yeah. Cara: and you started in fall of 2015, so when are you slated to graduate as a part-time…? Elyse: 2:16 Um, you know, I’m really, I think I’ve got 17 classes left to take. I usually do two at a time. Next year, I’ve added one more, so I’m going to do three. Cara: and working Elyse: 2:29 And working…see how that goes. So I’m a journalist. I’ve worked for Grand Rapids Magazine, Woman’s Lifestyle Magazine, and I run a biography writing business called Your Story that I just started this year. So the schedule – a journalist’s schedule – isn’t nine to five, like it’s kind of all over the place, which is nice, because it can be flexible as far as my classes, but it’s also, at the same time, you just never really know when stuff is going to happen or when people are going to be able to be interviewed �Cara: Right, and deadlines, and all the things that come along with journalism Elyse: Yeah, umhum. Gayle: Are you putting yourself through school, or were you able to get any…? Elyse: I’ve got financial aid Gayle: Ok. I didn’t know how that works – if you can apply for scholarships, or if that’s kind of more of the…unintelligible… that you have to do when you’re still in high school Elyse: 3:21 I think they do scholarships every year. The deadline is – I think it’s always March 1 for different scholarships – but I missed the deadline this year but I’m hoping to be able to get on top of it next year. Cara: Can you tell me a little about what you do with the CEI? Elyse: 3:25 Yeah, so we have a, in the past, CEI has put out an entrepreneurial magazine called Neu, just a print issue once a year and now we just do it all online on a blog, so I manage the blog. I do interviews, I try to stay in touch with the entrepreneurial community, the small business community, also, like, what students are doing as far as in the business school. And, I help with grant writing, just help with general content and copy for materials. Cara: Fun. And you like it? Elyse: 4:09 I love it. Sharouq is really wonderful to work for. Cara: Good. That’s good to hear. Do you have a favorite professor in journalism or at Grand Valley? Elyse: 4:18 My favorite professor in journalism actually left this…after…and I just started in the fall, so I don’t, I’m not familiar with the whole faculty. But he was my journalism history teacher and news and society teacher. And he was from South Korea and he had been a reporter there for a long time and he came here to get his doctorate, but I really enjoyed his classes because I...they were night classes they’re 6-9s which people can be kind of dead in 6-9s but he really challenged us to dive deeper and use critical thinking. Cara: That’s great Gayle: So, how was this transition coming back, starting school and…? Elyse: 5:04 It was exciting. Being that not finishing high school and not having that, like, line of, “well I’m done with this and now I’m moving onto this…” So, each class that I took each, and each semester felt like an accomplishment. Well, because, you know, it is, but it’s all, like, moving toward something that’s really exciting. I found out that it’s not enough to just be naturally, people can be naturally good at things, but you can be good at anything if you apply yourself to it. So that was really, figuring out how I learn things and how to study, and how to get to the point where I wanted to. It was… it seems really simple but it was something really profound to learn as an adult. Like, you really can do �anything if you apply yourself to it. And that’s not something I really had knowledge of before, but from my experience in high school Cara: Yeah, that’s a good point. Any other questions? Gayle: So, applying…I mean…what kind of…did you get advising or help from CC as to how to go through this process or did you just investigate it all on your own? Elyse: 6:13 I just investigated it all on my own Gayle: Really? Elyse: Yeah. Oh, you mean the process of getting back into school or the…? Gayle: Yeah Elyse: 6:19 Yeah. I just, you know, I don’t think I actually just, like, decided one day, like, “Oh I’m going to go back to school and I’m going to get my bachelor’s.” I kind of was just like, “oh, I’m just going to take a class here and there and then it just kind of started and it felt good and I just kept doing it. So, it was mostly just on my own accord Gayle: I assume you’re not living on campus? Elyse: No, no. Gayle: But are you getting involved with any…well you’re already really involved with… Cara: CEI, you work with… Elyse: Yeah Cara: And you take classes in Allendale Elyse: I take classes in Allendale Cara: So you’re on both campuses Elyse: 6:50 And I’m doing an independent study this summer which I’m looking forward to so I’ll be working with the journalism department more than I, you know I just started, so it’ll help me be more involved with that department. And it’s a journalism, it’s an independent study; it involves German and journalism, so I’ll be able to get a little bit more involved in both my major and my minor, so I’m looking forward to that. Let’s see… Gayle: Why German? I’m curious Elyse: 7:18 So, I have a personal interest in former East Germany and an interest in the role that journalism played during that time. So, for this, I’d like to go on to get my master’s and I’d like my master’s thesis to be…I don’t have it narrowed down yet, but I know I want it to take place within this time period. So this summer I’ll be doing a very small-scale study of…I’m going to take one newspaper from East Germany; I have to pick my time frame. It has to be within, like 1986-88 or something, and then one newspaper from �West Germany and compare their coverage of the exact same events. So it’ll help me narrow down…so I’ve been interested in this time period for a while and then I just figured, well, like, I’m going to have to take German. And then my minor was international relations and then I registered for, like, all the German classes for the next year and it just became obvious that I needed to change my minor to German. So, that’s it. It just comes from personal interest and kind of what I’d like to, what I’d like to do. If I choose to take an academic path, I’d really like an investigation of this time period to be my career, so… Cara: That’s awesome; you have a master’s thesis in mind Elyse: 8:30 If…also, being 28, you know, almost 30, I feel like I need to catch up to myself a little bit…of not, you know, being too afraid to - I don’t know if I was afraid to go to school or I thought that I just didn’t do it, but once I jumped in, it was just like, you know…it’s really important to me now. My parents didn’t go to college. My little brother graduated from Hope. He was the first person in our family to get his bachelor’s, and, so my parents didn’t go to school and they never really stressed it to us, and they’re very happy people, which is wonderful. They’re both blue collar and I learned a lot about how, you know, your daily expectations for life and how you really create your own happiness… but not having that, not having any voices saying, “you should really go to college…” where was I going with that? I don’t know where I was going with that but it’s… Cara: Well, you were a self-starter. And you didn’t have your parents influencing you to go, so it was a personal interest Elyse: 9:30 Yeah, yeah so, yeah, I guess I just needed to, I realize that there were all, a lot of things that I had dreamt of doing or I had wanted to when I was younger, I didn’t connect getting an education with doing those things. I didn’t connect traveling with doing those things. Or making a living, or being independent with getting an education, and once I did connect it with that, it’s like, this is so sort of powerful thing, so I guess that’s what college has made me feel like I have control of my life. Gayle: I think you, I mean it’s a really good story for others to hear, especially from the…the sense that this is still a very traditional campus Elyse: It is, yeah. Gayle: Mostly 18-year-olds, right out of high school, so…I think hearing the fact that if you don’t do it in the first four years, it still happens Elyse: Yeah Gayle: There’s no deadline, so…I think we’re kind of led to… Elyse: 10:20 And I’ve had to get comfortable with the fact of, like, I’m not going to be done in four years. I’m probably going to be done when I’m like, 31 or 32, and that’s totally fine. And another, like, in regards to - this is a very young campus and a lot of my classes are, I’m usually the oldest one in my classes. There’s a couple of people older than me here and there, but, I’m able, despite that environment, where maybe the people in my class �aren’t taking it as seriously or are just kind of going through the motions of going to class and going back to their dorm, I’m still able to choose to engage with the course and get a lot out of it just based on my own interest and it’s not necessarily the fact that I’m surrounded by 18-year-olds. It certainly doesn’t dictate the experience I have in class. Cara: That’s good to hear Elyse: 11:05 Yeah. And I find that all my professors, like, if you take interest, they will meet you more than halfway, and I really appreciate that. Cara: That’s good to hear, too. Elyse: Yeah. Cara: An engaged faculty Gayle: Well, you answered my next question about kind of feeling that, that if you’re bridging a difference, or not a difference, but not feeling like a “non-traditional” student. Elyse: 11:31 Yeah, yeah, I just really, I just try to stay very focused. And, again, like, I almost…I’m so grateful that I’m not 18 and in a classroom, because I would not have done very well and I don’t know how much…I’m sure that there are other students that are really engaged and are really getting there, but it would have been very difficult for me being 18 years old and I would imagine that it is for some people. So I’m grateful to have started a little later, after having some experience and realizing how important it really is. Cara; I’m sure you’re a good example, too, for your classmates. Not only are you “nontraditional,” but you’re taking it seriously and getting a lot out of it Elyse: 12:08 I hope so. I think a lot of them are like, “why is this…what are you still doing here?” Cara: You’re there to learn. I know. I remember the students. I went to school right after high school, college, and I remember having older students in my class and thinking that they were, like, taking it seriously, and they were there to do this and then they had to get back to work or they had to get back to their families and we were just hanging out on campus. Elyse: 12:32 Yeah, yeah. So it’s, I don’t relate to people in my classes, but I’m not there for social experience. Not really. (phone rings) I had someone in my, there’s a man in one of my journalism classes and he’s 40 and he and his wife paid off their mortgage and so he’s going back to school, finally, to finish his degree. I think, and actually, I don’t think he’s going back, I think he was just finally able to start. But it was nice having him in my classes, too, because we were both on the same page as being engaged and being in group projects together. Cara: Are there a lot of group projects in journalism? �Elyse: 13:04 We just, for my History of Journalism class and News and Society, we had some group research-based group projects. Gayle: Ok, the question I ask everyone, have you considered study abroad? Elyse: 13:18 Yeah, so I plan, I can’t take a full semester because I work, but I’m looking into the, there’s a German language school in Vienna that is college accredited and you can take a three-week course, a four-week course, a six-week course. It’s all based on, like, what you need, so I’m looking at doing three to four weeks in Vienna next July. Gayle: So, language study? Elyse: Yeah, language study, certainly. Gayle: Great Cara: Thank you for sharing your story Elyse: Yeah! Thank you. Thanks for asking Gayle: Just before we let you go, I mean, is there any, like, any just one (I think you haven’t been here very long) Elyse: That’s a good question…No, I haven’t Gayle: Any one memory that, from this first semester, that you look back and think, like, wow, that was really particularly something…particularly frustrating or empowering, or, or…” Elyse: 14:15 I had, my journalism teacher, his name was Dr. Hyung, H-Y-U-N-G, and he’s no longer with the school. But, he asked me to stay after class one day and asked me if I’d considered going to graduate school and I have always had an interest in this time period in Germany, but him saying that at the end of the semester after he had seen my work really just pushed me to go forward with it and made me I started communicating with the head of the communications department, just like, so that was just really, that was very, very encouraging. And that meant a lot. Cara: Yeah. He recognized something in you Elyse: 14:55 Yeah. So it also made me feel like it is worth showing up and it is worth engaging and asking questions and doing the work. Yeah, so, that was definitely a stand-out moment. Chatter – end-- � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Connected Exhibit Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource Collection of audio recordings and transcripts of Grand Valley State University students sharing their stories and experiences. The recordings were conducted as part of an exhibit created by the University Libraries in fall semester of 2016 titled "Connected" which featured short audio clips of students. The clips were combined with watercolor portraits of GVSU students by Ellie Lubbers and an interactive watercolor painting activity. Students were encouraged to paint 3" circles of paper to illustrate their current feelings about the college experience and attach them to the gallery wall. The aim of the exhibit was to inspire feelings of community, connectedness, and welcome to new and returning students. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/626">University Libraries. Connected exhibit files</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Michigan College students Oral histories Education, Higher--United States--Anecdotes Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cadena, Cara; Schaub, Gayle; Frigo, Emily; Lubbers, Ellie; Fisher, Erin Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV043-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wild, Elyse Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-19 Title A name given to the resource Elyse Wild interview (audio and transcript) Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schaub, Gayle (interviewer) Cadena, Cara (interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV043-07_WildE_2016-04-19 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/626">University Libraries. Connected exhibit files</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Relation A related resource Grand Valley State University Libraries. Connected Exhibit, September 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Description An account of the resource Interview with Elyse Wild conducted by Gayle Schaub and Cara Cadena for the GVSU Libraries' Connected Exhibit, displayed in September 2016. Edited clips of interviews accompanied watercolor portraits of students and an interactive watercolor activity for exhibit visitors. Elyse, 28, just finished her first year at GVSU. A freelance writer in Grand Rapids, editor for The 3288 Review and owner of a personal biography service called Your Story, Elyse also works as the managing editor at the Richard M. And Helen DeVos Center for Entrepreneurship and Innovation (CEI) in the Seidman College of Business. She is majoring in journalism and minoring in German. After dropping out of high school and taking classes at GRCC in her early twenties, Elyse looks at education differently than she once did. She is a highly motivated, successful student who, after graduating, plans to pursue a master’s degree in journalism and someday, ride a motorbike through Vietnam. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Michigan College students Oral histories Education, Higher--United States--Anecdotes https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a55bb2b4ff79e43ef07df3b24d09c8d4.pdf 5610fab9f6d67ec2cadda9a4af925d2f PDF Text Text What was Word War II all about? Washilliton Post Writers Group , LONDON - In White~all, a·steady trickle of tourists shuffles through thf> subterranean rooms where Winston Churchill and his war cabinet conducted business while the bombs fell. Taped voices of Neville Chamberlain and Churchill and Hitler echo through the concrete corridors. Across the river in the Imperial War Museum, visitors must make reservations for "The Blitz Experience," a simulation complete with smoke, sounds of air-raid sirens and make-believe bomb concussions. It is very popular. It lasts eight minutes. A recurring theme in modern thought, in writings as diverse as those of Freud and Proust, is the insistent, disturbing prompting of uncontrolled memory. And a recurring political task is the recapture of the past through cultivated memories, those mystic chords that bind people into communities. However, commemorations, such as those of the events of 50 years ago, can give false clarity to the past. What really began in September 1939? The late A.J.P. Taylor was a contrarian, but he had a point when he said the Second World War began in April 1932 when Mao Tse-tung and Chou Teh declared war on the Japanese in the name of the Kaingsi Soviet. Taylor said the war in the European theater began in March 1938 when the army of a great power, Germany, crossed a frontier - Austria's - to force political change. John Lukacs says that what began 50 years ago was "the last European war." As a European war it lasted until December 1941 at which point it became a world conflagration and the fate of Europe fell into the hands of the United States and the Soviet Union. What certainly began on Sept. 1, 1939, was the quick conquest of Poland. By December 1939 only two European states were really involved in combat - the Soviet Union and Finland. British and German troops did not meet until April 20, 1940, in Norway. And as Taylor wrote, until 1942 a wife in London was more apt to be a war casualty than was her husband in the army. The outcome of the war was settled in the first week of December 1941 on Dec. 5, when the Red Army launched a general offensive on the Moscow front, and on Dec. 7, when America was dragged into the war. No one knew what the world was slipping into 50 years ago. A Washington Post headline of Sept. 3, 1939, said: BOTH SIDES AGREE NOT TO BOMB CIVIUANS. The war that in its first month featured charges by Polish horse cavalry ended with two atomic blasts. In 1941, the U.S.Army had20,000 horses, the most since the Civil War. Paul Fussell, in his quirky, dyspeptic, fascinating new book, ''Wartime," is an archeologist of the American and British psyches, unearthing evidence of their conditions during the war. He confirms the judgment that it was a war in which disillusionment set in before the first shot was fired. In 1914, Rupert Brooke spoke for many when he thanked God for the outbreak of war, rejoicing in it as an awakening from "a world grown old and cold and weary," relishing war as a cleansing, invigorating experience, "as swimmers into cleanness leaping." However, the nations that turned wearily to the Second World War had read "All Quiet on the Western Front," and seen the movie of it, as well as "Grand musion." They had read Dos Passos' "Three Soldiers," Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms," Robert 6raves' "Good;tye to All That," and other literatur conveying the taste of ashes from the last war. The Second World War was, Fussell says, a war of impersonal forces, shaped by developments in mass production and propaganda. It was Krupp against General Motors, a war in which anonymity, the annihilation of individuality, was underscored by the name given to the men who conquered the ground: G.I. (government issue) Joes. Eugene Sledge, a Marine whose memoirs Fussell has rescued from obscurity, recalls Okinawa, where replacements were killed before their units learned their names. "They were forlorn figures coming up to the meat grinder and going right back out of it like homeless waifs, unknown and faceless to us, like unread books upon a shelf." Yes, of course the war was a ghastly experience, a maelstrom of modern forces that a poet has called "the conspiracy of the plural against the singular." But it was waged on behalf of singularity. Suppose our side had not won. As Lukacs writes, it is inconceivable that in the First World War, a nationalist war, a bar of German music (the first bar of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony - three shorts notes and one long note: Morse code "V'' for victory), could have been adopted as a call of defiance by the nations fighting Gei:many. But the Second War War was waged in defense of a civilization of which Beethoven is an exemplar. It was a war worth winning. 1 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_NWS_1988-Why-WWII-327 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Will, George Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1988 Title A name given to the resource What was World War II all about? Description An account of the resource Newspaper clipping of Washington Post Writers Group article about World War II fiction and reality. Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945--Fiction Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives