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                  <text>Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs</text>
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                  <text>Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183).&#13;
&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                  <text>&lt;a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>1960s</text>
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                    <text>Miller Siegel (1:05:31)
(00:01) Background Information
•

Miller was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1917

•

His father and grandfather were in the jewelry business

•

He went to Ottawa Hills High School

•

Miller went to Grand Rapids Junior College for 2 years then the University of Michigan

•

In 1939 he received his Masters Degree in business administration

•

He went to work in Chicago for an accounting firm until he was drafted

•

Miller took the CPA exam in Ann Arbor and while he was there he went on a blind date
with the girl he would eventually marry

•

He got deferred for a couple months because of work

•

Miller was inducted on February 22nd and sent to Camp Grant

(3:36) Training
• He was assigned to the Air Corps and sent to Sheppard Field in Texas for basic training
• Miller was then accepted to OCS in Miami Beach, Florida
• It was miserable because of the hot and humid weather
• He then went to Harvard University’s new Statistical Officer School to learn a new
system using Statistic Officers, either personnel or operations
• Miller served mostly in operations and graduated on September 13th as a 2nd Lieutenant
• He was assigned to Fort George Wright in Spokane, Washington
• They stopped and got married on the way out to Washington
• Miller was assigned to heavy bombers and sent to a base in Casper, Wyoming
• They flew missions with the B-17 bomber and his job was to keep track of the planes
• In April he was sent to Air Force Strategic Planning
• He was sent with a B-25 group to the “boon docks” for a couple weeks and didn’t really
do much

�• Miller then took a week long leave back home in Grand Rapids, Michigan
• When he got back he was sent to Wendover, UT and flew B-17s with the 317th Bomb
Group
• He was transferred to Sioux City, Iowa and his wife got pregnant
• Then Miller went to Mountain Home, Idaho for a month
• In January he was sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey
(16:32) Deployment
•

Miller was shipped overseas in a large convoy

•

The converted freighter broke down and they lost the convoy for a while

•

They landed at Glasgow, Scotland and then went to England with a B-25 group

•

His job was to write a report for every mission

•

They lost a lot of planes in the beginning

•

He went to Cambridge for some pilot funerals and got to go to London afterwards for 2
days

•

While in London a German Buzz Bomb hit 4 or 5 blocks away and he fell out of bed

•

Millers mission reports contained fuel consumption reports, injury and death reports,
whether there was flack or fire, how many planes went out, and how many came back

•

He worked from about 10pm to 4am

•

Miller stayed there until spring of 1944

•

When the weather was bad they would fly to “no ball” targets which, were the launching
pads for the V-1 and V-2 ballistic missiles; there was little enemy fire on these missions

•

They closed the base 10 days before D-Day and on D-Day they flew 3 sets of missions to
help out

•

He then put in for a transfer and got sent to the HQ of Air Force Service Command at
Milton-Earnest for 2 weeks

(34:15) Eisenhower’s HQ

�• Miller got sent to Eisenhower’s HQ and figured out the lend-lease program for the British
and the French
• It was Miller’s job to try and put a dollar figure on the lend-lease
• He stayed with a family in Paris until the war was over
• Miller was transferred to the lend-lease office in London
• In August of 1945 he was sent to Marseilles to transfer a load of money on a DC-3
• From there he took a week long leave in Cannes
• When he got back to London he had some vacation time so he went to Edinburgh,
Scotland
• Miller had to audit the officers’ books when he got back
• He had lots of points built up from the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Bulge, so he
asked to go home
• Miller boarded the Santa Rosa, a converted passenger ship, and went home
(54:56) Back Home
• He hadn’t seen his daughter in 18 months
• Miller went to Camp Atterbury, Indiana for discharge
• While he was overseas he was in little danger and really missed home
• Miller went to work with the family’s business until he retired
• He felt that being in the Military was a good experience

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                <text>Miller Siegel was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1917.  He received a Masters Degree in Business Administration and was drafted shortly after.  Miller was assigned to the Air Corps and became an officer in Florida.  He then graduated from Harvard University's new Statistical Officer School.  Miller was assigned to heavy bombers and did flight reports at a few air fields before being sent overseas.  His job in England was to write a report after each mission regarding injuries, deaths, fuel consumption, how many planes were lost, and then send the reports to HQ.  After the war Miller was moved to Eisenhower's HQ and had to figure out dollar amounts for the lend-lease program with France and Britain.</text>
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                    <text>GrandValleyStateUniversity
Veteran’s History Project
World War II
Richard Sieglw Interview
Total Time ()
Background
 (2:40) Parents were William and Mary Siegle of BostonMassachusetts
o Father’s family immigrated from Russia
o Grandfather wasn’t married at the time; came to America because he didn’t
want to serve in the tsar’s army
 Had to marry, so he married his niece
o Grandmother had relatives in Pittsburgh, so they stayed there awhile before
going to Aliquippa
 (4:13) Dr. Siegle’s grandfather escaped on a wagon in a haystack
o Paid someone to take him to the border so he could escape from Russia
o Grandmother was with him at the time
 (4:45) Mentions that the Jewish people had a lot of trouble in Russia, and this was the
main reason that his grandfather didn’t want to serve in the tsar’s army
 (4:59) Dr. Siegle’s father was born in AliquippaPennsylvania, in May of 1889
o One of 11 children
o Grandparents eventually moved to Boston
o Grandfather opened up a dry goods store
 (5:58) Dr. Siegle’s mother’s parents were also from Russia
o His grandfather was a widower left w/6 children
o His grandmother was a widow left with 1 child
o They had 6 more children
 (6:58) Dr. Siegle was an adult before he heard of “stepbrother/stepsister”
o Family was cohesive
 (7:45) Remembers walking to grandmother’s house with another young boy as a child to
see her dog
 (9:24) Began his schooling in Dorchester
o Went to Hebrew school after day school
 (10:58) Mentions that Leonard Bernstein was one of his classmates
o His mother and Dr. Siegle’s mother were good friends
 (11:40) Talks about his Bar Mitzvah
o He was the oldest and the first in his family to be confirmed

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(12:44) Says his father had a high school education; parents couldn’t afford to send him
to college
o Sold encyclopedias
o Became a great salesmen
(13:59) The community he grew up in was mixed
o At the time, the Catholic church was very anti-Semitic
(14:37) Dr. Siegle went to college in the Bronx
o New YorkUniversity for his first year
o Was a pre-med here
(17:20) Applied to transfer to MichiganState in 1933
o Sent a letter to the dean of the VeterinarySchool
(18:31) Went to MichiganState for 4 years
o Graduated in 1939
(19:00) Before he graduated high school [veterinary school?], he went to the Army
Reserve and signed up as a 1st Lieutenant in the Veterinary Corps
(19:20) While he was in school, his brother also started veterinary medicine
o They lived with someone named Mrs. Alice Depper
o Her late husband started the canoe service
o Her son was a veterinarian and wanted them to meet
o Ended up living with this guy
(22:38) Heard about the death of Dr. Thorndyke in Alto
o He and Dr. Depper took a ride up there
o Considers Dr. Depper to be a mentor
 He also worked as an attorney also
(25:25) Dr. Siegle’s first job as a veterinarian was fixing a draft horse’s leg
o Also took care of a cow who had milk fever
(28:57) Lived with the family who bought the Thorndyke’s house; The Rankins
o Then lived with a couple named Frank and Linny Klein
(29:22) Dr. Siegle used to spay dogs for $4
o Mentioned that his barber was also his anesthesiologist
o He had ether at the time for the anesthesia
(30:35) Remembers taking care of a colt that couldn’t stand up
o There was a fracture
o Bandaged it and molded a little cast from a coat hanger, peg, strap iron and
some leather belts
o Remembers that when he came back from the war, this horse was grown up and
plowing the fields

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(33:25) Mrs. Siegle worked in a bank in Alto when Dr. Siegle met her
o There was a roller skating party every week
o This was where they met
o They got married in May of 1941
(35:10) Dr. Siegle also got his draft papers in 1941 during the fall

Draft/Military Service
 (36:42) After getting the draft notice, Dr. Siegle went to Chicago at the Quartermaster
Depot
o Stayed here for a year
o He was a captain at this point
o The colonel said he wanted him to go to England and watch a packing company
 (37:26) At this time he had a daughter
o Looked for an apartment
o Found a home with an elderly lady in south Milwaukee
o She was an English older lady
 (39:30) Dr. Siegle went by train to PittsburghCalifornia
o Got here in early February and didn’t leave until March 7th, 1943
o Then shipped on an ocean liner to New Guinea
o Mentions that he was associated with a variety of chaplains
 (42:48) In New Guinea, Dr. Siegle worked in food inspection
o Lived in a Bachelor Officers Quarters
o Said in this part of New Guinea, it was either very hot, or monsoon season
o There was one morning where he woke up and his cot was touching the water
 (44:20) Dr. Siegle talked about the local people, said some of them were nomads
 (45:25) While in New Guinea, he had a jeep
o This was one of the things he could do as an officer
 (47:31) He could also commandeer a boat that went off the island
o Found “cat eye” stones, made jewelry for his wife
 (48:55) Mrs. Siegle has many letters to and from her husband while he was overseas
o While he was overseas, she spent 6 months at her parents’ house, then another
6 months at his parents’ house, and so on
 (50:26) Dr. Siegle also spent time in the Philippines
o The natives here were happy to be free from Japanese occupation
o But there was a lot of hunger and devastation where he was
 (51:50) Met a bacteriologist who taught at a university

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o They went to a leprosarium; said it was a very revealing experience
(53:45) Worked in a hospital laboratory here
o Hired natives, they also had to screen them
o Dr. Siegle said he microscopically screened them
(56:12) He was able to ride over to some of the islands
(56:32) One time he was a passenger on the General’s DC3
o The pilot made his call, and on the way back, Dr. Siegle asked him to slow down
so he could get a good look
o Dr. Siegle got to use the joystick
o Saw an inactive volcano and other things
(58:35) Remembers beautiful sunsets on the island
(59:27) One time as they were leaving the mess hall, there were children holding
buckets
o Dr. Siegle and the others gave them whatever they had left
o He said it was so bad, that the food they threw into dumps was scavenged by the
people
 This was food that was condemned
(1:00:40) Talked about the New Guinea natives
o Didn’t wear shoes
o Believes there was cannibalism many years ago
o Natives wore loincloths and grass skirts; upper bodies and heads weren’t
covered
o By walking barefoot, they developed strong calluses that allowed them to walk
over many things
(1:01:56) The Filipino natives were dressed differently
o More modern
o Says they were educated; met some doctors there
o They would hire a Filipino lady to do their washing and ironing in the BOQ
o Barefoot
o Darker skin
(1:03:16) November 1945, Dr. Siegle had accumulated points for his 4 years in the
military
o His wife’s birthday, November 4th, he was told to go on a Liberty Ship
o It was full of machinery to take back to the states
o About 6-8 of them rode for one month
o They landed in Long BeachCalifornia, on December 5th, 1945
(1:06:05) He said the only time his Jewish background had any bearing was just with his

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group as an officer
o The other officers only spoke to him once in the Philippines; disliked him
because he was Jewish
(1:08:35) Came by train to Ft. SheridanIllinois
o His wife came up to Ft.Sheridan
o Spent time with friends from Minnesota
(1:12:12) Dr. Siegle said his time in the service gave him a better appreciation of being
an American
(1:13:04) He said he’s glad that he didn’t have a combatant job in the army; was away
from danger
o He had a brother who was in the infantry in the Aleutian Islands
o His brother was responsible for opening up an officer’s club; made great food
(1:15:35) Lived with his wife’s parents when he got back
o Dr. Depper wanted them to stay with them for awhile
o Practiced for awhile with Dr. Depper in Grand Ledge
(1:17:11) Was invited to go back to Alto
o Wasn’t sure if he could make a living there or not
(1:19:05) They bought a barn
(1:20:05) The interviewer mentions that Dr. Siegle used to take care of their cows
(1:20:30) Started to remodel the garage so farmers would have an office to come into
o Started to make a hospital for the animals
(1:21:50) Father died in 1954
(1:24:20) Had a son who practiced veterinary medicine as well
o Gave him his business and it turned out excellent
(1:26:00) His son eventually built a new hospital
o Got an award for hospital of the year in 1983
(1:27:00) The rest of Dr. and Mrs. Siegle’s children were successful as well

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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Richard Siegel grew up in Boston, Massachusetts, in a Russian-Jewish family. He attended college and veterinary school at Michigan State University and enlisted in the Army Reserve as a 1st Lieutenant in the Veterinary Corps.  After receiving his draft papers in 1941, he went to Chicago and stayed there for a year at the Quartermaster Depot. He then went to England to inspect a packing company. He spent time in New Guinea and the Philippines and inspected various things working in a laboratory. After coming back to the US in 1945, he had a successful life as a veterinarian.</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Gordon Siggins
World War II
1 hour 40 minutes 27 seconds
(00:00:13) Early Life
-Born in Highland Park, Michigan
-Moved to Lansing, Michigan
-Quit school after the ninth grade
-Wanted to see what work was like before he joined the military
-Born in 1925
-Father worked for Lansing Lithograph
-Steady work during the Great Depression
-Made good money, but he drank a lot
-Had two sisters
(00:01:26) Start of the War Pt. 1
-Remembers a lot of young men quitting school to enlist in the military
-Went down to the train station and saw pine boxes being unloaded from the train
-Bodies of soldiers coming home after being killed in the Pacific Theater
(00:02:18) War Work Pt. 1
-Worked at the Willow Run Bomber Plant outside of Detroit
-Made good money
-Went to work at Willow Run in the summer of 1942
(00:03:25) Start of the War Pt. 2
-Learned about the attack on Pearl Harbor on the radio
-Mother called him inside and told him the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor
-Saw newsreels at the movie theaters
-Informing citizens about the fighting in Europe and Asia
(00:04:52) War Work Pt. 2
-Went to Ypsilanti, Michigan to work at the Willow Run Bomber Plant
-Found a room for rent in Ypsilanti
-Lived with 22 other people in the boarding house
-Had to share his room
-A lot of young women lived in the boarding house, which was good
-Worked at Willow Run for a year
-Remembers the first day he went into the factory
-Had a dreamlike quality; the building was so long he couldn't see the end of it
-Worked mostly with women
-He worked as a 'bucker' on the bomber assembly line
-Bucked rivets (reinforcing the bombers so as to absorb vibration and increase expansion)
-Had to take a bus back to Lansing to visit his family due to gas rationing
-Too expensive to drive a car from Ypsilanti to Lansing
-Able to build a new B-24 bomber every hour
-Once a bomber was complete, three or four men would test fly the bomber
-If it passed, two Women Air Force Service Pilots flew the bomber to a base
-Worked eight hours a day
-Able to work days as opposed to nights

�-Good place to work
-He was 17 years old at the time, so he wasn't at risk of being drafted yet
-Could have gotten a deferment by working at Willow Run
-His roommate took up the offer and did his service by working at the factory
(00�:10:07) Getting Drafted
-Registered for the draft when he turned 18 years old
-Recruiters from all of the service branches tried to convince him to join their branch
-He picked the Marine Corps
-In retrospect wishes he joined the Navy instead
-Would have avoided harsh living conditions
-Felt the Marines had the best to offer him
(00�:11:15) Basic Training
-Training began in October 1943
-Sent to San Diego, California for basic training
-Took a train to San Diego
-Four days from Michigan to California
-On the first day the recruits were told what they should do, and what they would do
-Also told that Marines always washed their own clothes
-On the second day they were assembled for another meeting
-Saw a Navy Grumman fighter plane flying overhead
-A P-38 Army Air Force fighter plane roared over their heads
-The two planes did acrobatics until they suffered a midair collision
-The Navy pilot bailed out, but the P-38 pilot died when his plane hit the ocean
-Basic training was fairly tough, but the average person could keep up with the rigor
-One heavier man had trouble climbing over obstacles
-Drill sergeant solved that by kicking him in the butt
-Went to the rifle range
-Four categories: qualifying, marksman, sharpshooter, and expert
-10% scored expert, 20% sharpshooter, 40% marksman, and 10-20% qualifying
-Didn't feel basic training was too bad
-If you received a package from home you had to open it in front of a drill sergeant
-Allowed to keep letters and other personal effects, but no cookies or candies
-Drill sergeants confiscated the sweets, and most likely ate them
-Noticed the drill sergeants got heavier when packages started arriving
-Whatever the drill sergeants said, you did
-Had no trouble adjusting to the discipline of the Marines
-Some men couldn't take orders and received a court-martial
-Lasted six weeks
(00:17:50) Joining the Marine Raiders
-Made the rank of private first class
-Meant he was eligible to apply for the Marine Raiders
-The Marine Raiders were the special forces of the Marine Corps in World War II
-Note: Became the Marine Special Operations Regiment
and renamed the Marine Raider Regiment in 2015
-Used the Raiders for advance raids on Japanese positions in “hit and run” style attacks
-For example: knock out a small Japanese outpost and destroy the radio station
-He was accepted into the Raiders
-Issued special gear including a Marine Raider Stiletto
-Sent to Camp Elliott, California for more training

�(00:19:48) Deployment to the Pacific Theater
-Boarded the USS President Polk (AP-103)
-Remembers a sergeant being incredibly seasick during the voyage
-There were 40 Marines in a 20 foot long room
-Bunks were stacked six high
-No porthole and not much (if any) artificial light
-Knew that if the ship was torpedoed he would probably drown
-Hundreds of Marines on the ship
-Pulled out of San Diego as part of a convoy
-Took three and a half weeks to reach their destination
-Had to be towed back to San Diego due to engine trouble
-After the engine repairs they sailed alone
-Crossed the Equator and took part in the King Neptune Ceremony
-Paddled by “Shellbacks” (men that have crossed the equator)
-Those that had not crossed the Equator were considered “Pollywogs”
-Shortly after the Ceremony they noticed a periscope to the ship's left
-Called to general quarters
-Ordered to put on life vests and never mind putting on uniforms
-Periscope vanished
-After the submarine scare they zig-zagged the rest of the way
(00:24:30) New Caledonia
-Reached a large island called New Caledonia
-Island to the west of Australia, French possession
-Got to the docks and unloaded
-Felt good to be back on dry land
-Went up into the hills
-Island looked like paradise
-Lush foliage, clear and cold streams
-The Natives were dark-skinned people, but they had red hair and blonde hair
-Combination of sunlight and mixing with the French
-Spent a month at New Caledonia
-Received more Raider training
-Went in small rubber boats with outboard motors
-Half of the motors never worked
-Climbed over walls and learned how to move through foliage
(00:28:14) Battle of Peleliu-Prelude
-Went to Peleliu (modern day Palau) in September 1944 to liberate it from Japanese control
-The Battle of Peleliu was a terrible fight and he knew from the start it was going to be bad
-Prior to the Battle of Peleliu he was in the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion
-The Raiders were disbanded in early 1944
-He was transferred to C Battery of the 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division
-He was assigned to be a machine gunner defending the 75mm howitzers
-Had no idea where they were going
-A day before they got to Peleliu, Tokyo Rose told the Marines they were going to Peleliu
-Note: Tokyo Rose (mentioned later as well) was an English speaking propaganda
organ of Japan to demoralize American soldiers during WWII
(00:31:02) Battle of Peleliu-Invasion
-On 7 AM on September 15, 1944 he and the other Marines climbed down the ship into landing craft
-Climbed into the landing craft and the seas were rough

�-A lot of men fell and broke their legs and ankles
-The Navy bombarded the island before the invasion, and it was nothing but fire and smoke
-Couldn't believe anyone survived the bombardment
-Landing craft advanced toward shore, but got stuck on underwater barbed wire
-Japanese artillery opened fire on the landing craft
-Marines jumped overboard and got caught in the barbed wire
-Remembers the men screaming for help, but no one could save them
-Only 100 Marines made it to shore
-His landing craft returned to the larger ship and waited for their orders
-While the landing craft bobbed in the rough seas he got seasick with the other Marines
-Combination of the rolling motion, heat, and nerves
-Alligator (LVT) and Buffalo (LVT-2) tracked landing craft approached the ships
-Had to go from the regular landing craft into the tracked landing craft
-The amphibious vehicle he entered was towing an ammunition trailer
-When they reached the shore the trailer got stuck on the barbed wire
-While taking fire, a few sailors managed to get the trailer off the barbed wire
-Got onto the beachhead at Peleliu in the late afternoon
-Went ashore near the landing strip
-Moved along of the landing strip and staying low to avoid enemy fire
-Found a destroyed Japanese pickup truck and crawled under it for cover
-Spent the night there
-Longest night he ever experienced
-Took artillery and mortar fire as well as sporadic small arms fire throughout the night
-Morning broke and he saw a dead, mangled Japanese soldiers
-Learned that it was an Imperial Marine
-Marines were disorganized and there were no officers around
-Took more fire from the Japanese throughout the second day
-Sat in a bomb crater and ate C Rations
(00:42:20) Battle of Peleliu – Battle
-On the third of fourth day he rejoined his unit
-Saw Japanese tanks torn apart by the bombardment
-The island was a mix of coral and sand, flat, save for the mountains
-A third of C Battery was killed or wounded in the battle
-8,500 Marines went ashore
-4,000 Marines survived
-Set up machine guns around the howitzers
-One night, a few Japanese soldiers tried to attack the artillery positions
-He killed four or five stragglers trying to attack his position
-During the battle the artillery had it a little better than the infantrymen
-Artillery fired day and night
-Moved often because they had the smaller 75mm howitzers as opposed to the larger 105mm howitzers
-Knew the battle wasn't going well
-After two weeks Japanese resistance hadn't broken
-Took a month to capture the island
-Note: Battle went from September 15, 1944 to November 27, 1944, so over two months
-In the second week of the battle Army units arrived to assist the Marines
-The Japanese had artillery pieces hidden in the mountains behind thick, steel doors
-Rolled out on tracks to fire on the infantry, then retreated into the mountains during air strikes
-Sailors went into the mountains with acetylene torches to seal the steel doors

�-American forces advanced across the island neutralizing pockets of Japanese resistance
-A third of the soldiers were killed because they weren't prepared for combat
(00:53:00) Rest on Pavuvu
-After the Japanese were routed on Peleliu the 1st Marine Division was pulled off the island
-Went to a rest camp on Pavuvu
-Expected beer and milkshakes
-It was a former French colony filled with coconut groves
-They were, basically, the only humans on the island
-It was muddy and infested with rats
-Some rats were as big as cats
-Used rubber bags to store fresh water, but the heat caused the rubber to leech into the water
-Made the water taste like rubber
-Trucks and Marines got stuck in the mud as they tried to move around the island
-Stayed there for a month
-The French proprietors charged the US government $125 for every tree damaged by the Marines
-A 2nd lieutenant wanted the Marines to clean up the island and put the coconuts into neat piles
-French proprietors wanted the coconuts scattered
-If they were in piles then the piles attracted rats
-Japanese had occupied the island, but abandoned it
-American Navy used it briefly as a supply depot, but also abandoned it
-The Navy turned the island over to the Marines to use as a rest area
(00:58:29) Battle of Okinawa-Invasion
-Went to Guadalcanal to receive more training
-Also rebuild the unit after losses incurred on Peleliu
-Boarded another trip
-When they were two or three days away from Okinawa, Tokyo Rose made another broadcast
-Told the Marines to expect an easy invasion compared to Peleliu
-Went ashore and faced minimal resistance from the Japanese
-On the third day the Japanese unleashed everything they had on the American forces
-Couldn't believe the number of ships used for the invasion of Okinawa
(01:01:08) Battle of Okinawa-Battle Pt. 1
-As they moved inland the Japanese resistance got worse
-Set up the howitzers and machine guns on a small knoll overlooking the ocean
-Hundreds of American ships and the sky was filled with antiaircraft fire
-Remembers a Japanese Zero flying so low over his position that he could see the pilot in the cockpit
-Zero passed over his position and attacked the American ships
-The pilot strafed the ships then passed over the howitzers
-Returned to ships and strafed again
-Dodged antiaircraft fire
-On the Zero's last pass a 20mm round hit the plane
-Turned into a fireball and fell into the ocean
-One of 15 Japanese planes he saw during the Battle of Okinawa
-Never saw any kamikazes
-The 7th Marine Regiment got stuck on one part of the island
-After the third day of the battle Japanese resistance increased
-His unit was on the move, but had to move slow because they were an artillery unit
-Never had enough flares during the battle
-One night a flare went up and he saw bushes moving just beyond the perimeter
-He told the lieutenant to fire another flare to illuminate the area

�-Lieutenant informed him they only had three flares until the next day
-Another flare went up and he and the automatic rifle gunner opened fire
-All he could see was laser-like red tracers cutting through the darkness
-The next morning there were 14 dead Japanese soldiers near his position
-Japanese soldiers put foliage on their helmets and uniforms as camouflage
(01:08:08) Battle of Okinawa-Typhoon
-Experienced a typhoon during the Battle of Okinawa
-There were concrete docks offshore tethered with massive steel chains
-The storm caused the steel chains to snap
-The winds blew away their tents and their newly built latrine
-The latrine blew into the ocean
-Remembers that all he could see were tents and materiel blowing in the wind
-Had foxholes to hunker down in during the storm
(01�:10:12) Battle of Okinawa-Battle Pt. 2
-Told no information about the progress of the battle
-Remembers eight days before they moved to a new position they got a “mail call”
-One of the men in his unit loved his wife and always talked about her
-On that mail call he received a 'Dear John' letter from her (breaking up with him)
-She also included a photograph of herself, eight or nine months pregnant
-He had been overseas for at least a year and a half
-Remembers seeing some of the dead Japanese soldiers
-Committed suicide rather than be taken prisoner
-Three weeks before the battle ended he was clearing brush
-Marine with the cheating wife offered to help him
-A Japanese soldier popped out of a spider hole and threw a grenade at them
-Gordon dropped and covered himself while the Marine took the full brunt of the blast
-The grenade blew him apart and put an end to his suffering
-Japanese forces on Okinawa surrendered on June 22, 1945
(01:13:16) Post-War Duty in China-Deployment
-Received word that he would be sent back to the United States
-Too many troops on Okinawa
-Made sure to get rid of any contraband before he boarded the ship
-Sold a beautiful pistol for only $12 so it wasn't on him
-Later learned that that was unnecessary
-Soldiers with 50 points were being sent back to the United States
-He had 58 points
-Points awarded on length of service, rank, dependents, and combat
-Assigned to a ship to return home
-Thought he was finally going home after a year and a half overseas
-Learned that the ship was going to China before he could go home
-Wound up spending six months in China
-Didn't get back to the United States until February 27, 1946
-Had gone overseas on February 28, 1944
(01:16:26) Post-War Duty in China-Police Duty
-Worked on the ship as a Shore Patrolman
-Went ashore in China and was assigned to the Military Police
-Spent a lot of time just wandering around
-Stationed in a town outside of Tientsin (now Tianjin)
-Moved around China on trains

�-Loading Japanese soldiers onto trains to be taken back to ports and loaded onto ships
-Did that for three months
-In the winter temperatures dropped to zero degrees
-Chinese Communists were taking control of China from the Nationalists
-Heard bullets snapping past him
-One Marine fired back at a communist soldier
-Apparently hit the soldier
-Informed that they were not allowed to return fire with rifles
-Issued shotguns and buckshot
-Totally ineffective except in close combat
-Only had summer clothing during the winter
-Quartered in the old French barracks in Tientsin
-Traveled all over China on trains
-Thought the Japanese soldiers he encountered were nice men
-Some of the Marines took personal items from the Japanese soldiers
-He never did that because he empathized with them and saw them as equals
(01:22:10) Post-War Duty in China-Chinese Civilians, Crime, and Commerce
-Remembers the Chinese civilians were smart people
-Remembers an old Chinese man doing magic tricks for the Marines
-On guard duty one night and an old man approached him
-Wanted to sell his ring for only $1
-$1 was the equivalent of 3800 yuan
-It was a 14 karat gold ring with a jade stone
-Everything was cheap in China
-Aunt sent him a diamond, onyx, and 14 karat gold ring and a beautiful money clip
-Someone stole both things
-Saw Chinese families in long boats on the river
-Most likely lived in the boats
-Marines did get in trouble in China, but not as much trouble as they could have
-Only issued $12 a month while in China
-Kept prices low and the Marines out of trouble
(01:27:38) Coming Home
-Completed his duty in China and was placed on another ship
-Sailed to California
-Took only a week and a half to get back to the United States
-Landed at San Diego
-Took a train to Chicago
-Parents had moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan while he was in the Marines
-Took a bus from Chicago to Grand Rapids
(01:29:55) Working for Oldsmobile (Prior to Marines)
-Before reporting for basic training he got a job working for Oldsmobile
-Worked for Oldsmobile for a month
-Worked third shift
-Remembers going to the Westgate Tavern after work
-Served beer despite being 17 years old
-There was a girl he worked with that was 20 years old, but was turning 21 years old soon
-He brought her to the Westgate after work and she tried to order a glass of wine
-Turned away even though she was turning 21 the next day

�(01:31:54) Life after the War
-Got to Grand Rapids and wanted to go back to work at Oldsmobile
-Bought a used car that frequently broke down
-Wasn't able to get over to Oldsmobile to reapply for the job
-Got a job at Dickinson Lithograph
-Same shop his father worked at
-Got a better job at Michigan Lithograph
-Worked there for 40 years
(01:33:13) Reflections on Service
-There were a lot of bad times, but there were also really good times too
-Some things were terrible, but he's able to look back on it as an overall positive experience
-Especially his time in China after the war ended
-Doesn't feel that the war changed him
-Able to retain his personality despite everything he saw
(01:35:10) Spirit of Grand Rapids Honor Flight
-Went on the Spirit of Grand Rapids Honor Flight on May 16, 2015
-Chance for local veterans to be treated to a flight to Washington DC
-Toured the capitol and honored for their service
-Talked with Dick DeVos on the flight to Washington DC
-Got back to Grand Rapids at 11 PM
-Completely worn out, but agreed to go to the final part of the event
-Went to East Kentwood High School for the conclusion of the day
-Couldn't believe how many people were there to greet the returning veterans
-Greeted by firefighters and police officers
-Thousands of people welcoming them home and thanking them for their service
-His wife, daughter, and grandson were there to greet him
-It was a long day, but a good day

�</text>
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                <text>Gordon Siggins was born in Highland Park, Michigan in 1925. Prior to serving he worked at the Willow Run Bomber Plant outside of Detroit from summer 1942 to summer 1943. He registered for the draft when he turned 18 and joined the Marine Corps. He took basic training in San Diego which began in October 1943. Upon completion of basic training he joined the Marine Raiders and trained at Camp Elliot, California. On February 28, 1944 he deployed to the Pacific Theater with the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion and trained at New Caledonia for a month. The Raiders were disbanded and he was assigned to C Battery of the 11th Marine Regiment of the 1st Marine Division. He took part in the invasion and battle of Peleliu from September 15, 1944 to November 27, 1944. After resting on Puvavu and training on Guadalcanal he took part in the invasion of Okinawa and the battle for that island from April 1, 1945 to June 22, 1945. After Japan surrendered in August 1945 he went to Tientsin, China in September 1945. From China he returned to the United States, landing in San Diego, California on February 27, 1946. Shortly after getting back to the U.S. he was discharged from the Marines. </text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.&#13;
&#13;
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.</text>
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Christopher, Frank&#13;
Gasdick, Joseph&#13;
Misenheimer, Charles V.&#13;
P.Y. Shu</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Sightseeing in Toungoo, circa 1942</text>
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Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>Signs of Community
Pentecost XI
Deuteronomy 6:4-12, 20-25; March 14:22-25
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
August 12, 2001
Transcription of the spoken sermon
Reflect with me for just a few moments what we have experienced together in this
community of faith where we have celebrated the sacraments of Baptism and the
Lord's Supper. If you were raised in the Roman Catholic tradition, you would
expect that there would be seven sacraments, but it doesn't really matter how we
name these particular rites and ceremonies and rituals. In our Protestant
tradition, it has been Baptism and the Lord's Supper that have been designated as
the sacraments of the Church, sacraments which we have understood to be visible
signs of invisible grace. Or, we have spoken of them as means of grace, conveyors
of grace, the grace of God, through the participation in the sacraments. Someone
has called the sacrament the visible Word and, if we were true to our tradition, we
would have pulpit and table at every service, for the Word explicates the action,
and the action embodies and symbolizes the Word. We do it backwards here; we
really should have the reflection first, so that when you came to participate, you
would know what you were doing. But, now you are going to have to hear what
you just did and then go home and think about it, you see. That is liturgically
incorrect, but we do it this way so that the children can be a part of it, as well.
It is important for us, on occasion, to think about the sacraments of the Church,
which I like to call the signs of community. I intentionally named Baptism in the
liturgy the Rite of Initiation, because that is what it is. It is the marking, the
signing of a child as belonging to the community. We only baptize once. You can
only come into the community once, and once you are in that community, signed
and sealed by the Spirit of God, you are marked forever.
This rite of the Table is a rite of commemoration, and we do it again and again in
order that we may go back and be reminded of our founding story, of that font
from which our tradition has arisen. We go back to the table and we remember
Jesus, we think about his life and his death and his resurrection, and we
remember what has constituted us as a people. We remember and we find hope,
and in the experience, we do sense that presence, that grace.

© Grand Valley State University

�Signs of Community

Richard A. Rhem

Page 2

I find in this congregation, and it may be true generally, that Baptism is so very
strong. Someone suggested one time that when we do baptisms here, there really
ought to be Kleenex in the hymnal rack. We have before us a beautiful child, and
there are parents full of awe and wonder, feeling the gift and also the
responsibility. There is the extended family, grandparents, aunts and uncles and
cousins, as well as the extended community, and we all take responsibility for
these little ones. I find that the celebration of Baptism here is deeply appreciated
and is strongly observed.
I find the Eucharist that we have just celebrated is less so. If you were raised in
the Catholic tradition or the Anglican tradition, you would be hungry for the
sacrament. In the 16th century, at the time of the Reformation, in order to rescue
the sacrament of the Lord's Supper from some abuses, the Reformers decided to
celebrate it only four times a year, and then to celebrate it with great solemnity
and to have a service of preparation beforehand. Actually, what happened was,
rather than elevating and lifting the sacrament in its importance and centrality,
what really happened to those of us who grew up on quarterly communion was
that we lost the appetite for it. At the 8:30 service, two-thirds of the people leave
every week instead of participating at the rail. They are not hungry or thirsty and
that is not any criticism, it’s just a fact. The sacrament, for them, is not such that
mediates a grace that makes them want to come every week to the rail.
So, we are all conditioned and determined much by our experience and our
practice and our observance. But, nonetheless, one way or another, we celebrate
Baptism in great joy, and some of us are very hungry for the sacrament of the
Lord's Supper, and others less-so; it's still enough to do it maybe a half a dozen
times a year.
These are signs of community, the marks of belonging, the coming-in, initiation.
And then the remembrance, the repetition, the re-presentation, so that we
remember that past act, that hopefully becomes for us a present moment of
experience, instilling hope in our hearts.
We are not a sacramentarian church. A sacramentarian communion, such as the
Roman Catholic Church or the Anglican Church or high Lutheran, invests the
sacrament with far more power or mystery than we do. For example, the panic
about getting a baby baptized in a sacramentarian tradition is that, if a child is
not baptized, the original sin is not removed, and so there is that immediacy
about it, and there is a fear lest the sacrament should fail to be celebrated,
because in a sacramentarian tradition, the grace is attached to the act. No act, no
grace. In the Lord's Supper, the priest has an indelible gift through ordination by
which the transformation of bread and cup into body and blood, that miracle of
the mass, can be transacted. Now, I don't have any such power. But, in the
sacramentarian tradition, that bread and cup become body and blood, and Christ
is received in the sacrament. If you weren't raised in those traditions, I doubt that
you can ever fully appreciate what someone who was nurtured in that tradition

© Grand Valley State University

�Signs of Community

Richard A. Rhem

Page 3

experiences at the communion rail. That is the central act of worship for a good
Roman Catholic in their worship observance. It is to receive bread and cup, thus
receiving Christ, literally.
Our understanding of it is more difficult to explain. We don't want to say they are
just empty signs, and yet, how do you find that in-between that says one
communes spiritually on these physical elements? That is what we try to say. But,
in any case, we are not sacramentarian in seeing the grace attached to the action.
We pray over the action for the Spirit to make that which is symbolized in the act
spiritually present to us. I think sometimes it works, and certainly sometimes it
doesn't. But, for us, these are signs of community. There is no magic here; there
is no superstition connected with it.
Last week I suggested that religion was that search for meaning, a very natural
and normal, human activity, universal human activity before the Mystery of Life.
What does it mean? Who am I? From whence have I come and whither am I
going - these are the religious questions that we wrestle with. Our respective
religions are the human imaginative constructs that we have put together.
Someone had a vision, someone had a story, a founding story that found
resonance in the lives of a community of people who formed a tradition so that
here we are, two thousand years after the table experience, the death and
resurrection of Jesus, still telling that story. We are a community that has a sign
reminding us of our founding. And we continue to observe this, even though we
don't believe that it fell out of heaven.
The early community came finally to this practice and then the institutional
Church, as it took shape and form, formalized those practices. We are not a
sacramentarian church that believes somehow or other that the act and the grace
are synonymous. We recognize that, in the birth and maturing of the Church,
these ritual actions became significant as the identity of the community is that
which helps us to understand who we are, as signs that keep us going, keep us
being reminded, keep us encouraged and inspired and giving us hope. These are
signs of community. They could be other than they are, and certainly they are
going to have to be understood differently than when they were first initiated,
because the whole religious, cultural, historical situation of this community is so
far different from that original community. The whole life experience is so
strikingly different.
And yet, what was really needed there, that mystery, that experience of the holy
and the sacred, it is for that same experience that we long. That is why we come;
that is why we have gathered. And so, we could change these sacraments, but it
would take a long, long time for another action to be invested with all of the
emotional binding of our present stories and our present sacraments.
We don't baptize out of some panicky feeling that if the child were not baptized,
the child would be lost We baptize because we believe the child is born into a
covenant of faith and a family of faith. It is a community sign.

© Grand Valley State University

�Signs of Community

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4

So, we have taken the bread, the cup and we have remembered, but we have not
had some kind of mystical experience with the literal body and blood, but these
signs are that which bind us together as a community and give us that sense of
identity that makes us one family gathered around Jesus, around the story of
Jesus' life, around his death. When body and blood are separated, there is
violence, there is death. We remember that Jesus died the way he died because he
lived the way he lived, and in his death he set us free from that bondage to the
darkness. And so, we have been reminded of our story, that which is the center of
our life together.
Signs of community are those mediators of grace, vehicles by which the presence
of the holy and the sacred become tangible, bringing into our experience that
dimension of the sacred or of God. Certainly that is why we continue in a
community of faith to celebrate rites of passage, surrounding them with holy
moments. How can you celebrate a birth without standing in awe before the
fountain of life? How can you speak vows to each other for life without the sense
of the presence of the Other? How can you possibly bury one whom you have
dearly loved without that sense that God is there? And so, as a community of
faith, we have signs of community that bind us together, that help us to
understand who we are and to bring to us those moments which are simply holy.
This past week I performed perhaps the most unusual ceremony of my life on a
beautiful sailboat out in the middle of Lake Michigan. The groom, one whom I
have known for a long time, the bride Russian. As we went out on the sail, the
bride's daughter, seventeen years old, multi-lingual, able to go from Russian to
English, dialed her grandparents, the parents of the bride, in Russia, and
somewhere in the middle of Russia, the parents of the bride tuned in to the
ceremony which was translated by their granddaughter so that they could enter
into the celebration with us. So, when I spoke about the two rosebuds that
represented those Russian parents, they were told. And when I mentioned the
ring which was gold melted from a bracelet that the father had given the mother
on the day that the bride was born, they could remember. And when the vows
were spoken, I gave the English translation to the daughter who read the vows in
Russian so that the bride could respond in Russian, and her parents listening all
the while. And when I spoke the meditation from I Corinthians 13, because we
were literally bridging two worlds, I spoke of love that transcends all differences
and all distance, and the granddaughter preached my little sermon. And when I
concluded the declaration – knowing that they were Eastern Orthodox for whom
the Trinity is important – in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
I doubt that there were not tears in Russia for what was being transacted in the
middle of Lake Michigan.
Why do we do such things? Why do we go through all that fuss? They are no more
married than if they had gone to the Justice of the Peace. They are no more
married, than if they had gone to City Hall in Red Square, Moscow. We do it
because we know that we are meaning-seeking animals, aware of what we are

© Grand Valley State University

�Signs of Community

Richard A. Rhem

Page 5

doing, conscious of our actions and our decisions, and knowing that there is a
Mystery before which or before Whom we live which we cannot fathom, which
will never be dissected rationally or set forth in intellectual discourse, but which
can be felt now and again, when grace brushes us and the dimension of the sacred
encompasses us, and all we can say is, "My God!

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee(s): Sijisfredo Avilés
Interviewer(s): José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/1/2012

Biography and Description
English
Sijisfredo Avilés is the first Puerto Rican in Chicago to publicly oppose the Vietnam War draft during the
middle 1960s. He quietly served three years in jail for refusing induction in 1968 and later and became a
member of the Communist Party USA. Born in Puerto Rico, Mr. Avilés’s family moved to Chicago in the
early 1950s, settling around Chicago Avenue and Noble Avenue, just west of Ogden Avenue and
downtown. Mr. Avilés has been a lifelong advocate for the poor, Latino self-determination, and human
rights. He has been a member of the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), the Puerto Rican
Socialist Party of Chicago (PSP), and the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center in Chicago. All of these
groups worked closely with the Young Lords.

Spanish
Sijisfredo Avilés es el primer Puertorriqueño en Chicago que públicamente opongo el recluto para la
guerra de Vietnam en los 1960s. Silenciamiento sirvió 3 años en la cárcel por rechazar inducción en 1968
y mas tarde se hizo mimbré del parte comunista en USA. Nacido en Puerto rico, La familia de Avilés so
movió a Chicago en los 1950s, estabilizándose en Chicago Avenue y Noble Avenue, que esta oeste de
Ogden Avenue y el centro. Señor Avilés a soportado los pobres, los Latino auto determinados y los
derechos humanos. Avilés ha sido un miembro de Latín American Defense Organization (LADO), el

�Puerto Rican Socialist Party of Chicago (PSP), y el Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center en Chicago. Todos
estos grupos han trabajado juntos con los Young Lords.

�Transcripts

JOSE JIMINEZ:

Anytime you want. It’s rolling, so anytime you want.

SIJISFREDO AVILES:

Let me take some deep breaths.

JJ:

You can take some deep breaths. No problem.

SA:

Okay, I’m ready.

JJ:

So if you can tell me what your name is, what you’re doing now, and then we will
start backwards and (inaudible).

SA:

Okay. This will be in English, right?

JJ:

Yeah, it’s better English, because (inaudible).

SA:

Okay. Sijisfredo Avilés.

JJ:

Could you (inaudible) [sorry?].

SA:

Okay. I was born in Moca, Puerto Rico in 1941. I’m sorry, 1942. February 13,
1942. And I came to Chicago in 1951. One of the things about this trip was that
it was my mother and my brother’s sister, my aunt, my grandparents, we all came
together [00:01:00] to Chicago because at that time, my father asked my mother
to come in, and then my father was very close to my smallest brother. So he
says, “If he goes, I’m going with you.” And then he had his son, my grandfather’s
son, or my uncle who also live in Chicago. So we came here, and I remember
that the first place we lived in was a hotel on Halsted and Grand owned by a
couple of Japanese people. And basically, there was a little Puerto Rican
community at that time over there because I think the people moved there
because there was a store called [Sam Wise?] Grocery Store. This is a Jewish

1

�per
son. And all Puerto Ricans went to the store to buy arroz con gandule, all the
Puerto Rican products, the fruits that we eat. So that was our focus. And
[00:02:00] I lived there a number of years until we moved to Racine and Chicago
Avenue. And the building doesn’t exist because it was torn to build the Kennedy
-- no, the Kennedy Expressway. Oh, whatever it is. It’s one of those expressway
that runs the 94. And I went to grammar school.
JJ:

So this was before the Kennedy was there, the Dan Ryan Kennedy?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

Now was the Cabrini-Green Housing Project, were they up when you came in?

SA:

I was a little kid, so I don’t know. I was ten years old.

JJ:

But you know that there was a Puerto Rican community?

SA:

There was a Puerto Rican community because I saw it every time we went to the
store, and I thought that I knew my way. And then I went to the store and my
uncle said, “Go to the store.” I got to the store, when I went home, I couldn’t
remember which way to turn, so I ended up on Halsted here, the other [00:03:00]
South Side (inaudible) to return. And then I said, “Oh, there’s the house.” And I
made it back. But it was a small Puerto Rican community. The other Puerto
Rican communities were on Madison and Ashland, around there. I knew about
that. And then the one on Clark Street. But I had no contact with those
community because like I said, I was a little kid wondering, what is going to be
my life in this new country, where people spoke English and all that kind of stuff.

JJ:

Now, where is Moca in terms of Puerto Rico? Is that (inaudible)?

2

�SA:

Moca is a little town on the west part of the island near Aguadilla, which used to
be a big Air Force base. I think Air Force or Navy base for United States, not
Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is not a free country, but a colony of [00:04:00] United
States, invaded by the US in 1898, where the main city, San Juan, was
bombarded. People don’t know that.

JJ:

What do you mean it was bombarded?

SA:

They dropped bombs on San Juan.

JJ:

In 1898?

SA:

1898. Yeah.

JJ:

So where did you go to school?

SA:

I went to a grammar school, Carpenter School on Racine and Erie. And there, I
went to-- they closed that school because they had closed another school.

JJ:

How was that school? What do you remember?

SA:

Well, let me explain. First of all, there was a school near Sam Wise store, near
there, and it was mostly a Black school. So they, the city, decided to tear that
school up and move everybody from that school to Carpenter School. [00:05:00]
And Carpenter School was mostly at that moment, as I can recollect, pretty much
mixed. But primarily, many Italian immigrants and Polish immigrants went to the
school, and we, Puerto Rican were just a tiny minority at that time. Then when
that school closed, a number of years later, because it was rebuilt, we were sent
to Motley School on Chicago Avenue and Throop. I went to Wells High School. I
graduated from there. I was number three. In terms of class standing, I was
number three.

3

�JJ:

What year was this? You were about?

SA:

I think it was 1956 or something. I’m not sure. And then from there, I went to a
community college on South Side [00:06:00] because my father worked most of
his life at the cement company, US Steel, but their cement section in Buffington,
Indiana. So he traveled all week, every day from Chicago, taking Route 41, all
the way to Indiana. And he worked three shifts. One week, he worked from 8:00
to 12:00, 8:00 to 4:00, then four o’clock to 12:00, and then 12:00 to 7:00 or
something like that. I never knew until big what kind of sacrifice he did to help us
maintain a steady life, which is very unlike other people that I met who used to
work in smaller factories in Chicago. And so I lived a pretty stable life. I didn’t
know [00:07:00] extreme poverty.

JJ:

Now how many siblings?

SA:

We are five brothers and sister, actually, one sister and four brothers. I’m the
oldest one. And when I came here, I was nine years old or eight years old.

JJ:

They all grew up here too?

SA:

All of us grew up here. But to us, I don’t know how or why, our culture was very
important. So we all speak Spanish. My brothers, following my father’s
footsteps, became musicians. My father was a guitar-- great guitar player. And
he even built his own guitars in Chicago. There was a program where they
showed him building on guitar on Channel 26 when it was a small station. And
my brothers play in little [00:08:00] bands, salsa bands. One was La Mafia Band.

JJ:

What year was this? Do you remember (inaudible)?

SA:

I think it was like late ’50s.

4

�JJ:

Late ’50s?

SA:

Maybe It was early ’60s.

JJ:

Early ’60s?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

So there was a group called La Mafia?

SA:

La Mafia, yes. They played salsa music. And my smaller brother liked to sing
rock and roll song, but you know.

JJ:

Because actually, there’s several bands during that time they came around.
(inaudible)

SA:

Well, that was a very, very young band. I know about the other salsa bands that
were sponsored by (Spanish) [00:08:41]?

JJ:

(Spanish) [00:08:41].

SA:

(Spanish) [00:08:41].

JJ:

What about your mom? What did she do?

SA:

Oh, my mother worked here and there, but most of the time, she was a full-time
mother.

JJ:

Full-time mother?

SA:

A strong woman. If she saw [00:09:01] someone-- something was wrong, she
will fight a man, really. That was my mother. A strong woman who had a sense
of what’s right and wrong. And I think I learned this from her because I say,
“Why did you become involved parties?” I think it was my mother influence on
standing up for what is right no matter what. Although she was not politically
involved, but she had that sense.

5

�JJ:

What do you mean? (inaudible).

SA:

Well, she was never involved in any political group. That’s what I mean. She
might have voted in regular elections, and that’s it.

JJ:

But she would just talk to you about that?

SA:

Not per se. It was her actions. They say actions speak louder than words, but
the fact that she stood for what is right had a great influence on [00:10:00] me
and I think on my other brothers and sister. We were not religious except one
person. My sister was the religious one in the family, went to church every
Sunday, who joined the (Spanish) [00:10:18] St. Mary’s Daughters. So she was,
you know.

JJ:

Now, do you know what church she joined?

SA:

Oh my God. Santa Maria Addolorata.

JJ:

Addolorata, and where would that -- ?

SA:

That would be on Ohio Street and near Racine.

JJ:

Near Racine?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

By Ogden there and all that intersection?

SA:

Correct.

JJ:

There was a (Spanish) [00:10:45] used to be over there.

SA:

I don’t know about (Spanish) [00:10:49].

JJ:

They were kind of connected with the church there. So those are -- ?

SA:

Not the Catholic Church because we were Catholic, and Casa (Spanish)
[00:10:56].

6

�JJ:

(Spanish) [00:10:57] is more Protestant.

SA:

It’s a Protestant church. [00:11:00]

JJ:

But at that time, they were a service center or something. They were connected-

SA:

Oh, maybe there was that thing.

JJ:

But I don’t know. (inaudible). So Santa?

SA:

Santa Maria Addolorata.

JJ:

Addolorata. (Spanish) [00:11:13]?

SA:

Yeah, (Spanish) [00:11:17] Maria.

JJ:

Los Caballeros de San Juan?

SA:

Yes, there was a Los Caballeros de San Juan. In fact, they were pretty active.
For some time, they were very active. And a lot of things that happened in
Chicago, among the Puerto Rican community’s sense of identity, as a
community, came from the fact that there was such a group as the Los
Caballeros de San Juan, where people got together, did social things.

JJ:

What kind of things did they do?

SA:

We celebrate usually religious holidays together, pray in Spanish, sponsor
(Spanish) [00:11:54] de Maria. Sometimes they sponsor trips to different parts of
the city. [00:12:00] And at that time, Los Caballeros de San Juan were very
much trying, in trying to get the Puerto Ricans involved in political-like action.
And that was under Cardinal Stritch. And when he saw this, he didn’t like it. So
what he did, disbanded the Los Caballeros de San Juan.

JJ:

He disbanded them?

7

�SA:

Oh, yeah. That’s what I think he did. Well, anyway, the Los Caballeros de San
Juan were no longer meeting in churches. They were sort of like floated in and
out. But the main leadership, the nuns and the priests were involved in this. He
sent them to Panama because the archdiocese here has something in Panama.
And that was the way he broke that potential organization.

JJ:

This was years later?

SA:

No, during that, about 1956.

JJ:

1956? [00:13:00]

SA:

Around there. Yeah.

JJ:

So they were like the organization (inaudible)?

SA:

Yeah. In fact, they did something like the -- we formed a credit union.
Caballeros de San Juan Credit Union.

JJ:

You said “we.” Were you part of this (inaudible)?

SA:

Well, I mean, as a community.

JJ:

As a community?

SA:

Yeah. That way, I was --

JJ:

So the community felt connected to the Los Caballeros de San Juan?

SA:

That’s right. And it lasted to about --

JJ:

It’s still there. It’s still here.

SA:

Well, but you see, it was taken over by Credit Union One because there were
problems administering in the Credit Union. We had to have so much money in
order to continue being a credit. So it was either that or close so Caballeros

8

�merged with Credit Union one, which is a nationwide credit union. And I’m still a
member of that.
JJ:

So the Los Caballeros de San Juan [00:14:00] organized the (inaudible) de
Maria?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

And so was it the same typical -- was it a?

SA:

It was a strict religious organization, but with the idea --

JJ:

I mean would women have some form of liberation like you were talking about?

SA:

Well, I don’t think women, at that time, it was liberation to talk about women.
Women did what they were expected, to be wives and clean the husband’s dirt in
the house, and raise the children, and work outside of the house in order to make
ends meet. But there was no question, no liberation theology of feminism at that
time. No. Women did what was expected of them.

JJ:

But they participated in the church?

SA:

They participate in the church, very actively. Took leadership position in some
activities that were done in the church. That’s because Puerto Rican men don’t
go to church basically. [00:15:00] It’s mostly women who drag in their children.
But they did have an influence. They organized baseball teams. So each church
had its own baseball team in the Caballeros de San Juan, and they play against
each other.

JJ:

Were a lot of people involved?

9

�SA:

Yeah. I think there was the social active life of Puerto Ricans. But to be involved
in Los Caballeros de San Juan or in the activities of Caballeros, like the baseball
teams and stuff like that, and later become involved with the credit union.

JJ:

What do you remember, since this is about you, what do you remember when
you were young growing up in that area?

SA:

Oh, I tell you my thing. I remember the racism that I encountered. We used to
live on, like [00:16:00] I said before, on Racine and Chicago Avenue. And we
live on a four-floor apartment building. And then behind us was the police
station. And I didn’t know what it was. We used to call a spic. Eh, spic.

JJ:

Did the police say this?

SA:

The police were the ones who instigated this kind of thing. I don’t think we knew
what a spic was, but they found out that that’s what speak was a term referred to
Italians before. But since we speak English, like that, so they started calling us
spics. And we, watching from our four-floor apartment porch, we saw what was
going on in the cells. And I remember beatings that went on in the cells by the
police. But one thing that really [00:17:00] got me was that one time, we were in
the home and lightning hit the building. And the lightning went from the chimneys
of the fourth floor and ended up on the first-floor apartment. But it was such a big
mess. Everybody got scared. Everybody grabbed their children running out of
the building, and the policemen were just standing there outside of the building,
laughing at us. “Look at those Puerto Ricans.” Oh, I hated them. I hated them
for that. Making fun of us and laughing. And we lived there until we moved to
another place. And I think we moved out because of the possibility that the

10

�building will be torn down. And so the police station would be torn down for the
expressway.
JJ:

Because I don’t recall that part, [00:18:00] so the expressway didn’t exist there.
Was there a major road or something in there?

SA:

No, it was just like, “Tear all these buildings and make this highway.” If you take
that highway going to the airport, you will see that it was residential area that was
strictly torn down to build the highway. So a lot of people were moved out other
homes for that purpose. The school, I don’t think there was much racism at all
against Puerto Ricans, because we were a small minority or Mexicans. It was
small, like I said it.

JJ:

And this was Wells?

SA:

No, this is Carpenter School.

JJ:

Carpenter School.

SA:

When we went to Wells High School, later when I graduated --

JJ:

But Carpenter Elementary?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

And so you said there was only a small percentage of -- ?

SA:

Oh, very small. I remember there were four Latinos, basically Puerto Ricans.

JJ:

And what were the other populations?

SA:

Italians, Polish.

JJ:

Italian, Polish?

SA:

As I recollect, they were being Irish, but to us, anybody who was blonde, we used
to call them Polish.

11

�JJ:

So did you see the neighborhood change, or did you move before that?

SA:

I saw change. I saw a lot of Puerto Ricans moving into the area around this
Carpenter School.

JJ:

Around what time was that about? What year is it?

SA:

1958. 1959.

JJ:

1958, 1959?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

So more Puerto Ricans were moving into the area. Were they coming from
Puerto Rico or from other areas?

SA:

I think some of them were moving from Madison to [00:20:00] that area.

JJ:

From Madison to that area?

SA:

And perhaps some people were moving already from Clark too, to the area.

JJ:

So from Clark and Madison?

SA:

Yeah. I know one thing that there was a huge increase of Puerto Ricans that
migrated to what’s called West Town Division Street. I mean, a huge number of
Puerto Ricans.

JJ:

So before that, there weren’t any Puerto Ricans (inaudible)?

SA:

No, that I recall.

JJ:

So they (inaudible)?

SA:

Yeah, I think once the other areas were changed.

JJ:

So Clark and from Madison?

SA:

Yeah. There were still many Puerto Ricans coming from Puerto Rico in the ’50s.
Some of them came because they were in the US Army during the Korean War.

12

�So when they came out, there’s no jobs in Puerto Rico, so they found ways of
surviving in Chicago in the area.
JJ:

Now, some people came and [00:21:00] went to the country also. But your family
came right to the Chicago area?

SA:

Let me tell you, my father came to the United States. The first place he lived was
in Utah because there were the gold mines. So he went to work in the gold mine.

JJ:

What year was that?

SA:

1950, probably. Or 1949.

JJ:

1949? (inaudible).

SA:

So he went to Utah. And then from there --

JJ:

And he stayed there a few years working in the gold mines?

SA:

Yes. Perhaps, he came to work in the tomato fields in the northeastern part of
United States, New England area. Then he found work at Utah. And then from
Utah, he moved to Chicago to work in the steel mills.

JJ:

Were there other family here already?

SA:

Well, there was my uncle and a few [00:22:00] young people at that time who all
came basically at the same time to live in Chicago. And some of them ended up
in (inaudible) because there was work at the steel mills. Some of them stayed
with -- many of them moved back to Chicago, my father being one. My uncle
also moved here. Two uncles because I have an uncle from my father’s side that
my father sent to him -- he came here when he was eighteen or something like
that. Was also a musician. I’m glad my parents were musician because that got
us to love our music and our culture. They used to meet in my house and plays

13

�music and dance. So that was very important to us, to our family, conserving our
Spanish tradition, Puerto Rican tradition.
JJ:

So what type of music?

SA:

[00:23:00] Oh, popular, mostly popular boleros, guarachas. Some country music,
but during Christmas time, which is still the tradition to sing those kind of songs
during Christmas time. So that was the (inaudible).

JJ:

So did he sing too? Was he a singer or just play together?

SA:

Oh, me?

JJ:

Your father.

SA:

My father played guitar, and so his brother played first guitar, and they used to sit
down and sing. And then my uncle from my mother’s side, he thought he was a
great singer, so they used to sing together with my other, his brother, singing
popular songs of that era. Augustin Lara was Mexican composer. Rafael
Hernández was very popular and favorite. Pedro Flores, El Quarteto Americano,
[00:24:00] other the people who played music. So he played like (inaudible)
music, some country-western, some country, Puerto Rican music. It was mostly
the popular type music that you hear.

JJ:

So now, to what grade did you go to Carpenter? From what grade to what?

SA:

I graduated from eighth grade from Carpenter School. (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible) Actually, I graduated from Motley because the last year, they closed
Carpenter School to build a new building, to make a new building. (inaudible).
So I graduated from Motley, who later became an all-(inaudible) girls school.
And they said, “Oh, you went to Motley.” I used to kid and I went to an all-girls’

14

�school. Then from there, I went to Wells High School. And I [00:25:00] spent
four years at the Wells High School. At that time -JJ:

Before that, now, you’re growing up in an era where the youth started getting into
gangs, gang problems and that. Did you get in any (inaudible)?

SA:

At that time, there weren’t gangs.

JJ:

There weren’t any gangs?

SA:

Gangs came later, after I graduated from eighth grade.

JJ:

So we’re talking about the ’50s?

SA:

The late ’50s, yeah.

JJ:

The late ’50s, there were no Puerto Rican gangs?

SA:

No Puerto Rican gangs or something. Oh, there was a lot of animosity, though,
let me tell you, between the Puerto Rican community and the Italian community
on Halsted Street. Now, I know that because there was a building that was set
on fire in that area.

JJ:

By who?

SA:

People think -- Puerto Rican think it was Italian. Some people think it just was an
accident. We never know. But I know that it came out in the newspapers, and
they [00:26:00] took this photograph of this young Puerto Rican who went up to
save his little radio. And in the process, he fell and got killed. So there was a lot
of --

JJ:

And they think that the Italians might’ve started the (inaudible)?

SA:

Yeah, I mean, it’s not. Nobody ever really think. It was just the idea that,
perhaps, they did.

15

�JJ:

So there was some animosity, though?

SA:

There was some really animosity. Basically, it was the teenagers because we
were competing for the girls. The Puerto Rican guys went after the Italian girls.
And you see the result of this. You see in Chicago, lots of marriages between
Puerto Ricans and Italian. Many, many.

JJ:

So this was before there were any Puerto Rican gangs there?

SA:

No. I think the gangs came --

JJ:

Were there Italian gangs?

SA:

If there were Italian gangs, we didn’t know. I didn’t know. It wasn’t organized.

JJ:

You [00:27:00] didn’t know anything about gangs?

SA:

No.

JJ:

Did you ever join any gangs then, or your brothers or sisters or anybody?

SA:

I never had the misfortune of joining a gang. No. I was a good kid.

JJ:

No, that’s good. I’m not saying it’s bad.

SA:

My mother would have killed us.

JJ:

Just trying to figure out when the gangs came in. (inaudible).

SA:

Oh, the gangs came in later. We were not involved. I think some of my brothers
and sisters were attacked by gangs. A little gang called Gaylords, which was
basically Italian, who had accepted also a number of Mexican kids in their gang.
And they went against Puerto Ricans because they said that Puerto Ricans and
Blacks were always together. And the Mexicans thought they were white at that
time, which is not true. But anyway, this was [00:28:00] the perception. So the

16

�gangs came later. I think it was probably, they started the first year of high
school when I was there. But there wasn’t any gang activity.
JJ:

In the area around Chicago Avenue and in Ashland, I’m saying they began to go
-- ?

SA:

No. Or at Wells High School, either.

JJ:

But I’m saying they began to go after (inaudible).

SA:

In fact, I remember my gym teacher --

JJ:

Oh, no (inaudible).

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
SA:

My gym teacher.

JJ:

Again, it’s at Wells?

SA:

He said that Wells High School was very calm because there were no fights
between Puerto Ricans and other groups. He said the biggest fights occurred
before we Puerto Ricans came to this area, when Italians and Polish had huge
riots at Wells High School. He said, I don’t know what people complaining. This
campus is calm now.

JJ:

So they’re saying it was calm because [00:29:00] there were Puerto Ricans
there?

SA:

Well, it was calm because there was no gang activity.

JJ:

No gang. No gang activity.

SA:

Nobody was against any other group. Overtly, physically. There might be some
comments or something, but no, nothing like that.

17

�JJ:

So how was your high school years at Wells? Did you complete all four years
there?

SA:

Like I said, I completed my four years. I was number three, student number
three in the standings of the whole school.

JJ:

So was it just normal or not normal?

SA:

Well, I was a homebody. I went from school to my house and read and listened
to the novellas with my grandfather. Regular soap operas. My father was one of
those people who loved soap operas. I think I took that. I think I have it from
him.

JJ:

Actually, they like that in Puerto Rico. Every time I go, there was a lot of people
into [00:30:00] soap operas.

SA:

Oh, yes. So from Chicago.

JJ:

From Chicago?

SA:

In Chicago.

JJ:

In Chicago. (inaudible) Oh, yeah.

SA:

Gang fights were not that big at all. There was the beginning, like Young Lords
versus the Latin Kings and stuff like this. But this was the early years. I don’t
think they were really --

JJ:

No, but you were studious, right? You were studying at school. Were your
brothers and sisters the same way?

SA:

The only brother that seemed to have some kind of a connection with friends that
were not approved by my mother was my two smaller brothers because we were

18

�older than them, and we were almost grownups when we went to high school,
and they were small.
JJ:

[00:31:00] Who were your friends? Were they Puerto Ricans or Americans?

SA:

Basically, our parents say, “You just visit your cousins, play around with your
cousins. No friends in the house.” We live a very close, secure life, protective
life, protected life. But I think unfortunately, one of my brothers did get involved
with a little bit of a gang issue, but Mexican. He got involved with some use of
drugs.

JJ:

Use of drugs. So it sounds like your mother was running the show or your
father?

SA:

Oh both. It was a team.

JJ:

What do you mean by that?

SA:

Oh, they both expect us to do certain things. For example, my mother worked.
[00:32:00] I was in charge because I was the oldest one. I had to make sure that
dinner was started. I did the beans; my sister did the rice, all that kind of stuff.
The meat, my mother did. But every one of us had something to do before my
mother got there. We were expected to do homework. That kind of stuff. And
so were my cousins. Since I was the oldest of the cousins, I was in charge of
them, disciplining them. They all think I’m the oldest brother or something. So
we were a very close family, mega family. My aunts, my cousins, we all live in
this building. We had the whole fourth floor.

JJ:

And this was on Chicago Avenue?

19

�SA:

Yeah. The whole fourth floor was our family: my aunts, my grandparents, my
mother and father. There was no stranger [00:33:00] in that floor except us. The
little village of Moca on the fourth floor. Then later on, more Puerto Ricans
moving to this building. It was owned by the Wise brothers. The ones who
owned that store that I told you.

JJ:

They owned the building and the store? So was the store there?

SA:

No, the store was on Milwaukee Avenue.

JJ:

Oh, so they owned the store and the building?

SA:

And the building that was just about a couple of blocks away from them.

JJ:

So they were all family. You don’t remember any other families that were there
at that time?

SA:

Oh, yes, some people who live on the third floor, second floor. Remember I told
you about the first floor when the lightning hit? We were friends to those people.
And we felt so bad when this poor lady was cooking something. The food was all
black with [00:34:00] soot that came down the chimney. There was no damage.
But the thing I remember most about that was the fact, we were taught to believe
that police were supposed to be respectful. And here they are laughing at us
under this crisis saying, “Look at those Puerto Ricans. Ha ha ha ha ha.” I hated
that time. The fact they called us spics and then the fact that they laughed.

JJ:

Were there any incidents, any other incidents that you recall in that
neighborhood? Because that was the Gaylord neighborhood then.

SA:

No, I don’t think the Gaylords were very organized in that immediate community.

JJ:

Later on, that was their neighborhood gang.

20

�SA:

Yeah, I know.

JJ:

So you’re graduating from Wells?

SA:

Correct.

JJ:

And then was you working anywhere at all?

SA:

Oh, my mother and father said, “You don’t work until you finish school.”

JJ:

[00:35:00] Well, your father had good income from the steel mill?

SA:

That’s right. So we never worked.

JJ:

Now, had your father gone to school?

SA:

My father went as far as high school, but my mother went in sixth grade. And
that was because she was, like I said, she stood up for what she thought was
right, and one teacher in Puerto Rico hit her, and she said, she told the teacher,
“Wait until you have your own children, then you won’t want to spank me.” And
she called her all the kinds of names. So they called my grandfather, and they
say, “We don’t want your daughter in school.” There was no student rights, so
she was dismissed from returning to school. So she never finished. But she
used to read a lot, though.

JJ:

So now you’re graduating. You’re in Wells; you’re graduating. Where did you go
after that?

SA:

Well, the last year, [00:36:00] my father and mother had moved to the South Side
on 61st Street and Stony Island. There was a pretty good size Puerto Rican
community there. So we moved to a building there.

JJ:

61st Street and Stony Island?

21

�SA:

Yeah, it was 63rd and -- Do you don’t remember that big church on the South
Side that became the headquarters of the Blackstone Rangers or something?

JJ:

Right. I remember that.

SA:

Well, that’s what it --

JJ:

That’s where it’s around Blackstone. That street.

SA:

But there were no Blackstones, because when we moved there, there were no
gangs.

JJ:

No, the street. The street was called Blackstone.

SA:

No.

JJ:

Not that (inaudible)?

SA:

It was 63rd. And I think Woodland. I don’t know the name of it. I don’t recollect.

JJ:

Actually, the Caballeros de San Juan had their council (inaudible) in that area.

SA:

That’s right.

JJ:

Was that the same place. Was that the same church?

SA:

I think. What was the name of that? [00:37:00] Saint (inaudible) Church? I don’t
know what the name was.

JJ:

I think that’s what it was. Caballeros de San Juan had a strong (inaudible).

SA:

Well, the Caballeros de San Juan were in many communities. So it was a
disaster to the American community when Cardinal Stritch sent the leadership to
Panama.

JJ:

And that was because they were getting out of hand or what were they doing?

22

�SA:

Helping the Puerto Rican community, trying to awaken them to the fact of what
the political system is and what are the [rights?]. He thought that was, you didn’t
do that. You don’t question the city.

JJ:

They were questioning the city?

SA:

That’s right. And the laws.

JJ:

See, I thought that they were more conservative.

SA:

No, they were not conservative. I’m telling you, because of this radical Catholic
group in [00:38:00] the Chicago area that stood for other things besides bridging.
They actually went on and tried to help Puerto Ricans manage some of their
political -- well, economic problems and difficulties when it came to housing or
whatever. When there was a police problem, they came out and tried to help.
Because there was already police insensitivities to Puerto Rican community. I
don’t think it was police brutality yet. That came later. So we --

JJ:

Insensitivity?

SA:

Insensitivity. Yeah. I mean, the same kind of insensitivity of the police laughing
at us, but they never attack us or --

JJ:

Verbal. A lot of verbal abuse?

SA:

That’s right. So then I moved to the South Side the last year. I decided --

JJ:

What year was this that you moved, about? I’m just trying to get a --

SA:

I think it was [00:39:00] like early ’60s.

JJ:

Early ’60s?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

So early ’60s, you were on 63rd Street?

23

�SA:

Yeah. For my fourth year of high school. And I used to stay at my mother’s
house.

JJ:

So you went to high school there? What school did you go there?

SA:

No, I went to Wells High School. But I continue going to Wells High while I live
on the South Side on the weekends, because I stay over here with my
grandmother and my aunt in front of St. Boniface Church.

JJ:

Okay.

SA:

So I traveled back and forth.

JJ:

Anything that you remember while you were in high school, and what do you
remember?

SA:

Well, I remember fighting with an Italian kid and that really frightened me,
because suddenly I realized that I was not fighting to fight and protect. I was
fighting to kill somebody. [00:40:00] I remember hitting the kid in the stomach
because I knew that was the big effect. Oh my God, I said, “This is it.” And the
idea that I could kill somebody took over my life, really.

JJ:

Why were you so angry? What did he do to make you so angry?

SA:

We were playing soccer or something. Soccer. When you throw the ball and try
to hit each other at the gym.

JJ:

Dodge ball.

SA:

Dodge ball. For some reason, he came up to me. That’s how I perceive it. He
started fighting. I fought with him, and I remember he was trying to fight a little
while. He wasn’t the expert fighter, nor was I, but I was fighting. I was thinking,
I’m going hit him in the stomach. [laughs] And I say, “Oh my God, I’m capable of

24

�doing this kind of reasoning.” So I tried to stay away from difficult promise of
fighting because suddenly, [00:41:00] so then I realized that I could be -- I was
not fighting just to defend myself or to get rid of (inaudible) me. Well, anyway, it
was young guys.
JJ:

You got really angry. You got really angry?

SA:

I wasn’t angry. That’s the whole thing. I was calculating.

JJ:

Calculating.

SA:

And that really frightened me.

JJ:

But you actually wanted to hurt him? (inaudible)?

SA:

Yes. I wanted to hit him in the stomach to kill him, because I told that if you hit
him in the stomach --

JJ:

You were how old? You were already a killer at what age?

SA:

Fifteen, sixteen?

JJ:

I’m just kidding. Just kidding.

SA:

But after that, I never had any encounter, any other fight.

JJ:

So basically, you didn’t get into a lot of fist fights?

SA:

No. I eventually kept to myself. I had some Puerto Rican friends, one or two of
the other [00:42:00] white kids.

JJ:

And you said basically, because you were more studious and your family wanted
to make sure that you went to school and right back home?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

Is that what kept you away from the gang?

SA:

That’s right. And they expected that from my brothers and sisters also.

25

�JJ:

Except the younger ones started getting into trouble?

SA:

Yeah. I think at that time, the older ones were in high school.

JJ:

And you said also that had to do with that there weren’t that many Puerto Rican
gangs that (inaudible).

SA:

No, there were really -- like I said --

JJ:

When you were growing up. So when your younger brothers were growing up,
there were gangs?

SA:

They were gangs.

JJ:

So that environment, violent?

SA:

It was beginning to change.

JJ:

It was beginning to change. Why do you think that was changing at that time?

SA:

I never really thought about why. I think it was because the number of Puerto
Ricans was higher, and that also causes a lot of difficulty, when suddenly you’re
not the majority in that area, and [00:43:00] you think that that area is mine by
right. So that was it.

JJ:

So the neighborhood was changing.

SA:

The neighborhood began to change.

JJ:

And Puerto Ricans were just saying, “This is my neighborhood now.” And the
other -- and I’m putting words (inaudible).

SA:

No, no, no. I don’t think there was overt saying, “This is my neighborhood.” We
don’t want to. It’s just that --

JJ:

There was (inaudible)?

26

�SA:

It seemed like a natural growth without anybody planning this kind of activity later
on.

JJ:

So there was no urban renewal? It was just natural? Natural change. But that
natural change contributed to the gangs?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

Is that correct, or am I putting words in your mouth?

SA:

I think it has something to do with it, but I don’t think -- the gang situation at that
time wasn’t that strong or open.

JJ:

So you were not working. [00:44:00] Now, you’re out of high school. And you’re
going to college?

SA:

Yes. I found a job at the post office.

JJ:

You worked at the post office? What (inaudible)?

SA:

I was what they call a substitute clerk.

JJ:

That’s a pretty good job. Did you have any connections to get the job?

SA:

No. I just took a test and passed it, and you know. (inaudible) They gave me the
job. It was like a part-time position to work at night, finishing all the sorting of
mail or filling up trucks, whatever. We did everything. That’s what they call it
substitute. Whatever they need, we went over there. And we got hours for
eleven o’clock, 11:15 to 7:45 in the morning or something like that. Sometimes
they only kept us four hours. But if there was too much work, then they asked us
to stay until the following morning.

JJ:

You were still living in that same area, same neighborhood?

27

�SA:

[00:45:00] I was living -- at that time, we had moved back to Chicago, North Side
of Chicago.

JJ:

So you went from the South Side back to the -- ?

SA:

Yeah, we did because --

JJ:

Back to Chicago Avenue?

SA:

Yeah, we did. But let me tell you one of the things that impressed me. When I
was going to live on the weekdays in my neighborhood, I did encounter this
whole question of racism against the Black community, because I remember a
group of white people knocking at the door, our door and say, “Oh, we come here
to let you know that the Blacks are moving in.”

JJ:

This was where? On the South Side or the North Side?

SA:

The South Side. Jefferson Park. The street was Jefferson. “The Blacks were
moving in, and we’re creating a [00:46:00] welcoming reception committee.”
That was one way of scaring people that the Blacks were coming in. And I said,
“Oh no, we just fine.” We were not thinking of moving. But I remember coming
one weekend, because this is the time when leases are due, right. I came in,
and suddenly, the whole neighborhood had changed from white to Black. And
what happened was the rents went up real high. The services that the buildings
were receiving, like yard clean up, the cleaning of the hallways, all that stopped.
But the prices went higher for the Blacks. So they were thinking already of urban
renewal at least this company, McKey-Poague was the company. I remember
that name. McKey-Poague. [00:47:00]

JJ:

McKey-Poague?

28

�SA:

McKey-Poague, P-O-A-G-U-E. It was a big real estate company. They had
control of these buildings. I don’t know if they own or whatever, but they were
the ones who came out and --

JJ:

Isn’t the University of Chicago there or something like that?

SA:

A little bit farther.

JJ:

What is it?

SA:

South. University of Chicago is 59th or something. This is 69th and Jeffrey.
They came in when I went there on the weekend because Wells High School, the
weekend to spend with my parents. I was shocked. Everybody in the
community, except for my family and other two Latino families that stayed there,
were all Black. It was overnight, I’m telling you. What is going on here? I didn’t
realize what was going on. Then the rents went up.

JJ:

[00:48:00] And where were the Blacks coming from? Maybe they were being
pushed into that area?

SA:

I think they were coming from University of Chicago.

JJ:

Oh, so (inaudible).

SA:

Because at that time, university was expanding.

JJ:

Expanding. And so the Black community from there was pushed into that area?

SA:

Right. They were welcomed by McKey-Poague, supposedly. They moved there.

JJ:

So you said there was some prejudice? What do you mean by that?

SA:

Well, I thought it was awkward that this neighborhood moved. Since I was in
college, I knew something about racial stuff. And I said, “Oh my God.” So the
neighborhood changed overnight. They would stay there-- a few months later,

29

�we moved back because the rent was just too high. So we decided to move
back to the area on Chicago Avenue and Noble Street, in front of [00:49:00] the
swimming pool there, and that’s where we lived until we grew up.
JJ:

So mostly, the Blacks who lived there was the area where you lived?

SA:

Chicago Avenue and Noble Street. Eckhart Park.

JJ:

Eckhart Park.

SA:

Eckhart Park was right in front of the house, from my house. So we lived there.
We got married. My sisters and brothers got married there, and so on.

JJ:

So that was right in the middle between Clark and Division Street, that area, the
Chicago Avenue and Division Street area and stuff?

SA:

So that area was pretty -- the Puerto Rican community, the Latino community
was pretty big by then because we got rentals on Racine, on (inaudible) Street,
[00:50:00] and all the streets in between. Throop, Elizabeth, were pretty much
Latinized [sic].

JJ:

That was like that connection between both those areas.

SA:

Pretty much that Latino.

JJ:

And Division Street, that area.

SA:

I never asked people if they came from Clark Avenue. Just --

JJ:

No. You just didn’t know.

SA:

But that’s where they moved.

JJ:

People didn’t say it yet, but that’s where they moved into.

SA:

Right.

30

�JJ:

I just only know from the research and stuff. But that community is old. The
Noble, Madison Street (inaudible), definitely and older community in Chicago for
Puerto Ricans.

SA:

That’s right.

JJ:

Also Italian.

SA:

When we moved there, it was not Puerto Rican. It was a lot of Polish. St.
Boniface Church was a Polish church right there. But Santa Maria Addolorata,
which is where they had (Spanish) [00:50:53] de Maria, which is on Ohio, near
Racine there, that was Italian. [00:51:00] So these two communities for moving
out of the city or whatever, moving farther north west.

JJ:

And the Puerto Ricans were moving in.

SA:

That’s right.

JJ:

Created some friction a little bit there. So now you’re in college. What college
was that?

SA:

I went to Southeast Community College.

JJ:

Where’s that?

SA:

Oh my God, I think it was South Chicago Street?

JJ:

Was it South Chicago?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

So it’s not in Chicago, you said?

SA:

No, it’s in Chicago. But South Chicago.

JJ:

Hyde Park?

SA:

No. Farther.

31

�JJ:

Farther, further south?

SA:

Southeast.

JJ:

Oh, the Southeast. Towards Hammond and stuff like that?

SA:

Well, Hammond, no. It was right in Chicago.

JJ:

95th Street?

SA:

Yeah, around there.

JJ:

Around 95th and Commercial (inaudible)?

SA:

Commercial. I think the school was in Commercial.

JJ:

Was that?

SA:

Commercial?

JJ:

Actually, there were some Spanish people there.

SA:

Oh, yeah. [00:52:00] There were some Puerto Ricans living there.

JJ:

They had Puerto Ricans living there (inaudible).

SA:

But when I went to that community college, as I can recollect, I was the only
Puerto Rican or Latino there. And I don’t remember. It was highly Jewish.

JJ:

(inaudible) neighborhood. They just didn’t have a lot of Puerto Ricans going to
college at that time.

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

Is that correct? Or am I incorrect?

SA:

Yeah. I don’t think we, very few families thought of their kids going to college at
that time. There were a lot of Jewish. That used to be a Jewish community on
Jeffrey/Jackson Park area, until the Blacks moved in that area, especially the
huge chunk of people who moved.

32

�JJ:

The Caballeros de San Juan played in Jackson Park for a while. They used to
play softball, I think.

SA:

Well, yes. Part of the Caballeros de San Juan, like I told you, they organized
baseball games and stuff like this. [00:53:00] So I was, as I recollect, I think I
was the only Puerto Rican. There were a couple of Mexican American, but they
came from the South Chicago area, who went to the community college. And I
don’t think people knew Latinos or Puerto Ricans. They thought I was Jewish.
What’s a Puerto Rican doing here? So I had friends. My friends there were
Jewish and Black.

JJ:

In the college?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

And what were you studying at the time?

SA:

Oh, just the regular first two years of, you know.

JJ:

Core classes?

SA:

Yeah. Ended up with an AA degree.

JJ:

An AA degree? What is that?

SA:

AA. It’s like a two-year degree you get.

JJ:

Oh, an associate. [00:54:00] An associate?

SA:

Associate of Arts. Yeah, that’s what I got.

JJ:

But what major? What were you majoring in? Basic general?

SA:

Basic general because I was thinking of law. Actually, political education. I was
really interested in political education (inaudible).

JJ:

What got you interested in political education?

33

�SA:

Because I saw some group of people in the area of Ashland and Augusta, the
Northwest Community Organization? And when there was that so-called Puerto
Rican Riot.

JJ:

The NCO?

SA:

That’s right. NCO. I went out at my house, and we talk about it, and they were
talking.

JJ:

So this was 1966? You’re talking about the Puerto Rican Riot of 1966?

SA:

Yeah. I came across that kind of activity. I got involved with [00:55:00] NCO.

JJ:

So the riot kind of affected your thinking?

SA:

Well, I was in the middle of the riot. I was caught in there.

JJ:

You can describe what riot?

SA:

I’ll tell you what, it was the most fearsome thing that I -- my brother and I were
visiting a friend of ours on Division Street, and then we saw all these group of
people coming, and the police. We actually asked the police to escort us out of
the area. So I was interested in that kind of politics.

JJ:

What do you mean that kind of politics?

SA:

Community organizing, defending your rights, that kind of stuff. Because I have
been exposed to the whole question of, to my own readings, to discussion with
other people about the lack of rights that Puerto Rico had as a nation.

JJ:

Was it Wells School or at [00:56:00] the college?

SA:

No, this was in Wells High School.

JJ:

So you were in high school.

SA:

I became interested in that, and I became interested in knowing more about --

34

�JJ:

What year was this? What year?

SA:

Oh, you always (inaudible).

JJ:

This was before this riot, though, right? It was before ’66?

SA:

I was caught in the middle of the riots.

JJ:

So this was before the riot that you were interested in the politics?

SA:

Yeah. I was mostly interested in the whole question of Puerto Rican
independence because I remember as a kid, in the 1950s, when Albizu Campos
got his group of people together, and I was already living in Chicago. And I said,
“Oh, wow, Puerto Ricans are fighting for something.” I was impressed by that.
And I always admired Pedro Albizu Campo because I saw in him somebody who
stood up for what he said was right and was able to put his life.

JJ:

So you’re talking about the Truman thing in 1953?

SA:

Yes. Right.

JJ:

1953 when (inaudible)? [00:57:00]

SA:

I was already living in Chicago. Yes. I was living in Chicago, and as a young kid,
I remember that. And I got so mad when Channel 7, Flynn, that was the guy who
spent fifty years in the station as their main reporter, came out, and then he said,
“Nice going, Puerto Ricans.” This is what happened. This is the story that he
said, a comment that wasn’t written, “Nice going, Puerto Ricans.” And I was just
doubly upset. I couldn’t stand that man ever since I heard him say that. So I was
always interested in the question of Puerto Rican --

JJ:

About how old were you that time -- about?

SA:

Perhaps eleven years old.

35

�JJ:

So you were already eleven in 1953?

SA:

Yeah. I remember, and that had a whole impact on me. I don’t know why.

JJ:

You’re Puerto Rican, I mean, [00:58:00] it was a --

SA:

Yeah, but, you know. So there were other many Puerto Ricans, and they were
so embarrassed that the Puerto Ricans did that. And I felt proud that Albizu
Campos did that. Just the opposite of those people in my community. And then I
started reading about political situation in other countries. Later on, when I took
history, a lot of history courses in high school, and I used to read about the
Soviet Union. I remember a class where I was defending the right of the Soviets
to defend their airspace when Eisenhower sent spy planes. And I remember
that. I was arguing. I remember saying, “What about if the Russians sent their
planes here to spy on United States?” I remember arguing [00:59:00] with the
class and the teachers, and there were some visitors. And then they were trying
to show (Spanish) [00:59:08] the kind of thing that is going on. I don’t think the
visitors were expecting some kid to defend the Soviet Union’s right to shoot down
a US plane because it was fighting over their airspace. So for some reason, I
have become very much interested in politics.

JJ:

But this was you, not your father or mother?

SA:

Oh my God, I hate to say this, but my father always claimed to have been an
admirer of Adolph Hitler. I said, “Oh my God, how can you say this?” I don’t
know if he was doing it to spite me, but I just could never understand why a
hardworking man like him [01:00:00] with a sense of justice, felt that way. My

36

�mother felt that I was a little bit crazy because of these thoughts that came to my
mind. I remember when Governor Muñoz came to Chicago.
JJ:

Muñoz Marin?

SA:

Yeah, Muñoz Marin.

JJ:

Luis Muñoz Marin.

SA:

And I went, came visited the city of Chicago. And I remember going to the
places hearing him talk. Anyway, I don’t understand how I became interested in
this. I think some people are born with this idea.

JJ:

When you were in high school, did you join any organization or anything like
that?

SA:

Spanish club, basically [01:01:00] because of culture kind of things. I think I --

JJ:

Like social club?

SA:

We just met socially, to discuss.

JJ:

Because I know they had a lot of social clubs in the neighborhood. Were you in
one of those?

SA:

No, it was a high school club.

JJ:

Oh, a high school club.

SA:

There were the --

JJ:

Oh, like at (inaudible) or something like that?

SA:

(inaudible) didn’t exist yet.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

(inaudible) came later, much later. But I did go to some of the groups that
already existed, like El Congreso Puerto Rican. I remember going.

37

�JJ:

What was that like? El Congreso Puerto Rican, that’s an important part of our
history.

SA:

Well, it was a social club. It was a social club with emphasis on trying to get the
different town clubs to come together and form an organization.

JJ:

So there was town clubs, different social clubs that --

SA:

No, each town, might have [01:02:00] its own social club.

JJ:

In Chicago?

SA:

Like Moca. (Spanish) [01:02:02]. And then (Spanish) [01:02:11] tried to get all
these clubs together.

JJ:

Puerto Rican Congress was it like (inaudible)?

SA:

That’s right. That’s what it’s called congress.

JJ:

An association of all these social clubs that existed within the Puerto Rican
community?

SA:

Correct. So that was the attempt.

JJ:

Now, they were located at Larrabee and North Avenue in Lincoln Park?

SA:

I know at one time -- they moved quite a bit. I remember that one time, I had to
take the Ogden bus down to North Avenue or something because that’s where --

JJ:

That’s where they were located on Ogden and North Avenue?

SA:

Oh, but I remember going there.

JJ:

That’s Lincoln Park.

SA:

Yes. I remember going there.

JJ:

So you went to those activities.

SA:

Well, to all of them, but I knew about the thing.

38

�JJ:

So what were some of the activities? What did they do?

SA:

Dominos was a huge way of meeting people. [01:03:00] So I went to the Domino
tournaments. I went to the parties. They organized dances for Christmas and
celebrations. At that time, I think they were trying to form the idea of having a
Puerto Rican parade.

JJ:

I believe that’s who started the Puerto Rican parade. For them and Council
Number Three.

SA:

Whatever.

JJ:

San Marcos.

SA:

But then I noticed one thing.

JJ:

So the Puerto Rican (inaudible), I believe, was elected there.

SA:

Oh, was it? I’m not sure. I wasn’t that involved, but I knew about them
(inaudible).

JJ:

But there were activities like that (inaudible)?

SA:

Yeah. So I went to go there. I went over there. And since my brothers used to
play or my --

JJ:

So they played there too?

SA:

Well, just little bands, play anywhere. So whenever they called their services,
they were there. So my father and [01:04:00] my uncle usually had some kind of
musical group, especially my uncle, used to have trios. He usually ended up
playing in all those places.

JJ:

And Puerto Rican Congress?

SA:

Puerto Rican didn’t have bars to go to.

39

�JJ:

Oh, they didn’t have bars?

SA:

No.

JJ:

But they had the social clubs, weren’t they (inaudible)?

SA:

They had the social club.

JJ:

(inaudible) clubs and bars.

SA:

Oh, yeah. Well, they were clubs where they sold soda --

JJ:

Beer.

SA:

Beer and rum.

JJ:

But they were more family oriented.

SA:

It was strictly family oriented.

JJ:

So actually, that was good (inaudible)?

SA:

It wasn’t like the (Spanish) [01:04:37] in the neighborhood where men, women,
usually the prostitutes came around it. No, it was family oriented. And that’s
where I came. But going back, I did become -- those were the reasons why I
came interested in political situations. Then [01:05:00] after the riot, I saw this
group, NCO, trying to organize the -- into some kind of organized group to defend
our rights and the rights that we as Puerto Ricans have in this country, according
to the Constitution. Now I’m adding this later on, but at that time, I just felt angry
because -- and this offered a way of doing (inaudible) in the community. So we
ended up doing, helping people with buildings, that was NCO. Going around
asking people if they (inaudible) and trying to get the city involved, harassing the
neighborhood, that kind of thing.

JJ:

(inaudible) any building problems in that (inaudible)?

40

�SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

So you would go door to door or something like that?

SA:

Yeah, we went door to door and knocked on people.

JJ:

And they were located where?

SA:

NCO at that time was on Ashland Avenue.

JJ:

So not too far from where (inaudible) was?

SA:

I think close to Augusta. [01:06:00] I think they stayed there until they folded out
as an organization. So I was interested in that.

JJ:

What about other groups that you were members of?

SA:

Well --

JJ:

Or did they (inaudible)?

SA:

It was strictly NCO.

JJ:

It was strictly NCO?

SA:

Yeah. And then later, many years after, I was involved in organizing the
Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition, which we found.

JJ:

Before that, when did you -- didn’t you go to jail or something for (inaudible)?

SA:

That was many years before.

JJ:

When was that? And what year was that about?

SA:

Well, I was in junior college. It was the beginning of the Vietnam War.

JJ:

What year about?

SA:

1960s, probably?

JJ:

Early 1960s?

41

�SA:

Early ’50s. I don’t remember. To me, days are not that important. It’s actually,
anyway.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

But you always come back, “Well, what year?” [01:07:00] It was around the
1960s that I –

JJ:

You’ve (inaudible) the Vietnam War?

SA:

Yeah, Vietnam War.

JJ:

And were you working with any group at that time? Were you a member of any
groups?

SA:

No, it was strictly an individual action that I took.

JJ:

An individual action?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

What was the action?

SA:

I just refused to go to Vietnam when I was drafted.

JJ:

So you were drafted, and you refused to go, but did someone support you,
endorse you?

SA:

No. Wait a minute, let me -- no. I did it. And then I went out and searched for
people who were involved I guess (inaudible) that war in Vietnam. So I came
across a little group of college students called CADRE, Chicago Area Draft
Resisters.

JJ:

But hold on, if you can hold on. Chicago Area Draft Resisters, you mean to tell
me that without any backup or anything like that --

SA:

I made a decision that I was not --

42

�JJ:

You made a decision on your own crazy self -- ?

SA:

That I was not going to serve United States.

JJ:

Your own crazy self that you were not going to serve in the United States Army?

SA:

This is my reasoning. [01:08:00] I don’t want Vietnam to go to what my people
have gone through in Puerto Rico when the United States took over. That was
my reason. I’m not going to help United States --

JJ:

So you got (Spanish) [01:08:10]?

SA:

Yes.

JJ:

In your mind?

SA:

In my mind, I was independent.

JJ:

You were already just happy that, about the attack on Blair House and Albizu
Campos and that. So in your head you (inaudible).

SA:

I had the feelings towards (inaudible) and independent and that we were a Latino
country.

JJ:

And that Puerto Rico was a nation.

SA:

That’s right.

JJ:

So you were already feeling that already?

SA:

I always felt that. Like I said, since I was eleven years old, whatever.

JJ:

That’s what I can see. So you weren’t actually that crazy. You already --

SA:

I was following my own ideas. Political --

JJ:

Your own idealism.

SA:

Yeah. So then I heard about this group --

JJ:

But you went on your own.

43

�SA:

I went on my own and then --

JJ:

With no backup or anything. And basically, what did you do and then what
happened?

SA:

When they called me, I said, “No.”

JJ:

And then what happened?

SA:

Well, [01:09:00] they threatened me, blah, blah, blah.

JJ:

They sent letters?

SA:

They said, the process was, they send you a letter. “Welcome. You have been
selected to join the US Army. [laughs] Please report on this date.” And I say,
“I’m not going to go.”

JJ:

So you didn’t report, or did you call them?

SA:

No, I went. I said I’m going to --

JJ:

Oh, you went there?

SA:

I went there, and I said, “No.” When they asked, you said no. Are you sure you
know what you did? No. You’re going to end up in prison, blah, blah. No, no,
no, no.

JJ:

Did they arrest you right there?

SA:

No, they didn’t arrest me there. They just sent me home. And then a couple of
weeks later, I got a letter to report to court. But I heard about the CADRE, the
Chicago Area Draft Resisters.

JJ:

So you reported to court. What court? And where did you go?

SA:

To the federal building in Chicago.

JJ:

So you reported to the federal court in Chicago?

44

�SA:

Right. Because (inaudible).

JJ:

Were you arrested there? [01:10:00]

SA:

I spent one day in jail until they did a trial on me.

JJ:

In one day, or you got bonded out?

SA:

I went out on my own.

JJ:

Recognizance?

SA:

Recognizance. And then I went home.

JJ:

And then a few weeks later, you went to court?

SA:

Yeah. Well maybe a couple of months later. A week.

JJ:

And so you still hadn’t changed your mind?

SA:

No, I haven’t changed my mind. But let me tell you, I learned about the Chicago
Area Draft Resisters. I went for help and we got together. Then I got to meet the
American Friends Service Committee. And I said, to please my mother, I tried to
get a -- what you call it, conscientious objection, which I knew I was not going to
get anyway, because I knew that after reading that for political reasons they
wouldn’t give conscientious objection. Basically, it was for religious purposes.
But I went anyway to please my mother, appease her. But no.

JJ:

Because your mother didn’t want you to go to jail?

SA:

No. I think no. My mother never. [01:11:00]

JJ:

She basically said, “This is (inaudible).”

SA:

And my father didn’t want me to go either.

JJ:

And you had never been in any trouble before?

45

�SA:

Never. So I went, and I got to meet Chicago Area Draft Resisters, and then I
began to participate in many activities.

JJ:

This was before you went to court?

SA:

Yeah. Against the war. And I met some great people who were involved in all
kinds of social -- activities for change. The anti-war people I met at the --

JJ:

Were there any other Puerto Ricans in Chicago that had refused to go?

SA:

As far as I know, I was the first one, and I came out on the picture.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

Let me see. They took a picture of me when I went to a community hearing to
declare my -- reported it at an organization. I don’t remember the organization, if
it was NCO or what. [01:12:00] That little mag, Black Jet, came to this thing and
they took my picture.

JJ:

And that was it? That (inaudible)?

SA:

Black Jet.

JJ:

So you came out in Black Jet? (inaudible).

SA:

So when I went to prison, “Oh, here’s the guy that was in the -- ”

JJ:

So you went to prison via the Black Jet?

SA:

Some (inaudible) Black guy has a copy of the Jet magazine where my picture is
there, and I’m pointing out to the statistics of Latinos versus --

JJ:

So you went to federal prison then?

SA:

Yeah. Because refusing to be drafted is a federal offense. So you had to go to a
federal offender (inaudible). I was sent out to Southern Illinois. Let me see. Oh

46

�my God. Sometimes I erase from my mind back in my place. I went to the
prison.
JJ:

Marion is in --

SA:

Marion, [01:13:00] thank you. I went to Marion. They put me in the trustee
prison. I forgot what they call those people.

JJ:

Trustee. Because it was the first time (inaudible).

SA:

Right. And then I was surprised to have seen so many -- all the people who have
refused to draft before religious people.

JJ:

How much time where you given? How much sentence?

SA:

I was sentenced three years.

JJ:

Three years? So how many months did you do on three years?

SA:

I spent two years.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

And then the last year was on recognizance.

JJ:

Like on parole.

SA:

Right. On parole as in probation. So I was probation one year.

JJ:

So now you are going to jail for the very first time in your life, and you never did
anything.

SA:

I did one thing.

JJ:

How did you feel?

SA:

I thought I was going to be put wearing those stripe things like you see in the
movies. This is how naive I was. That I had a chain with a big ball dragging.

47

�[01:14:00] It wasn’t that at all. Then they put me for a couple of weeks in
isolation to acclimatize me to the rules of the prison.
JJ:

But by that time, you’ve gotten some support from this Chicago Area Draft
Resisters?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

So when you felt a little at least you had somebody there (inaudible)?

SA:

They came out to my trial.

JJ:

So that gave you a little bit morale or something like that?

SA:

Yeah. And there was support from people from AFSC, American Friends Service
Committee. One of the ministers came and visited me and all that kind of stuff.

JJ:

And at that time --

SA:

In fact, Greg-- the committee -- Gregory, Dick Gregory.

JJ:

Dick Gregory.

SA:

Came to my house and talked to my mother and father about what a great thing I
have done. It feels (inaudible) to go in. Dick Gregory went to my house.
[01:15:00] I didn’t even know that until I came out of prison that he had talked to
my mother and to my father.

JJ:

Because that was way before the Young Lords started as a political group and
we were a gang at that time.

SA:

Really? When Dick Gregory --

JJ:

Right, because later on, we started in ’68, in September of ’68, and that was way
before that. But we did hear about you at that time. (inaudible).

48

�SA:

Well, like I said, I was in the newspaper, whatever it was, in a Black magazine,
Black Jet. I didn’t know I was making such an impact. And this is where LADO
came in.

JJ:

And LADO is how we heard about you (inaudible).

SA:

Well, because I was --

JJ:

Because we started working with Latin American Defense Organization.

SA:

I started working with LADO and the whole question of peace.

JJ:

What happened? While you’re in jail, what are you doing? Are you reading?

SA:

I’m reading, basically, poetry, writing stuff, [01:16:00] putting songs together.

JJ:

Were you into poetry? Is that why you were reading poetry or just (inaudible)?

SA:

I loved poetry all the time. Even when I was going to community college and
when I was going to Roosevelt University, the idea of reading poetry always
fascinated me. Reading Spanish stories and Spanish books and all that
(Spanish) [01:16:23]. All that thing always attracted, culture.

JJ:

So you came out of jail. Did you have any -- I mean, you’re in jail. I know it’s a
federal penitentiary, it’s not a state prison. And those are supposed to be a little
bit more easier they say than the state prison.

SA:

Well, yes.

JJ:

Did you have a hard time?

SA:

No, I never had any hard time. I had some --

JJ:

Challenges.

SA:

Big challenges. I think it was basically to see how far I would stand for myself.

JJ:

People do that in jail.

49

�SA:

Yeah. I know a group of people try to [01:17:00] make me have sex with them.
When I said, “No, you better kill me.” And they just back away. And then I
practice some psychology recently, say “You do this.” (inaudible) this guy
believe in basically, “You do this, you kill me, but I won’t let you sleep or leave
you in peace because I’ll haunt you for the rest of your life.” And he was terrified.
He let me alone. Then everybody --

JJ:

But usually there’s other Puerto Ricans there too?

SA:

No, there weren’t many. No.

JJ:

In federal, yeah. They don’t send them to federal yet.

SA:

No. Puerto Ricans were not --

JJ:

It’s a luxury. So they don’t send --

SA:

Puerto Ricans were not there. The only large group of people who were not
criminals were the Jehovah Witnesses because they refused to go into the --

JJ:

So you had some other people that refused also?

SA:

Yeah, there were a lot of them.

JJ:

A lot of them?

SA:

Jehovah Witnesses, large numbers of them, [01:18:00] thirty to forty or more who
refused to go because it was against their religion because they all claim to be
ministers, and they felt that since they were ministers, they should get an
exemption.

JJ:

Did you make friends with them?

SA:

Oh, yeah. I made some friends. I think they felt that, “Why don’t you join us?”

JJ:

They’re saying (inaudible).

50

�SA:

Yeah, they thought I was true to my word. And they felt this is the kind of people
we need in Jehovah Witnesses. They wanted me to join their group.

JJ:

How did your mom and dad feel that when you were in there?

SA:

Oh, they came to visit me. Even my father who was against the whole idea came
to visit with (inaudible).

JJ:

Because they were proud, no, that you were taking an action?

SA:

My mother supported me, my father, but I don’t think they were proud. They
thought I was crazy. Let me tell you. When I said [01:19:00] that I had said no, I
remember my mother going to an tirade. She took all the books and threw it on
the floor. “This is what books have done to you. They made you crazy.” Then
she threw all the books and she said, “I want to burn them. I want to burn them.”
That was my mother screaming. Upset what I had done.

JJ:

You never did give your mom and dad’s name.

SA:

Oh, my father’s name is Domingo [Aviles?] Aviles, and my mother’s name is
(Spanish) [01:19:32].

JJ:

Sorry about that.

SA:

My father was born in Moca, but a little barrio called (Spanish) [01:19:44] at that
time.

JJ:

And your mom was from Moca also?

SA:

Yeah, she’s from the central part of Moca.

JJ:

Now, did you get a lot of visitors or a lot of letters or anything like that?

SA:

I got --

JJ:

From your family?

51

�SA:

My mother and father were the only ones who [01:20:00] showed up. I don’t
even know if my sister visited.

JJ:

And then did you get letters from strangers or that (inaudible) supported
(inaudible)?

SA:

Not many, but some friend wrote me all the time just because we had a crush on
each other. And she was actively politically involved with American Friends
Service Committee. And she went out with a group of people, burned the draft
board, and then they said --

JJ:

Can you explain? I heard about that.

SA:

And they said they took all the files.

JJ:

What was her name?

SA:

Linda Quint.

JJ:

Right. I heard that name, Linda.

SA:

Linda Quint.

JJ:

So she was the one that burned down the -- ?

SA:

She and a couple of Catholic prison nuns and some people went at night. You
see, they had no security there. Right now, they would have been killed. They
went in there and took out all the files out because she knew that my files were
there and that (inaudible) service was (inaudible).

JJ:

So you actually were writing to her. She was your girlfriend at that time?
[01:21:00]

SA:

Huh?

JJ:

She was your girlfriend at that time? You were writing her, or just a friend?

52

�SA:

No, she just visited me.

JJ:

But she knew that your file was in there?

SA:

Probably, so. Anyway, so they went to that service board, took out all the files,
made a bonfire in the yard, and then they stood around singing songs, and the
police came and arrested them.

JJ:

But I heard they threw red paint or something like that, or to make it look like
blood or something, or no?

SA:

I don’t know if they did.

JJ:

They just had a bonfire?

SA:

The only thing I know they burned the things. Then afterwards, they (inaudible),
they didn’t stick around and get arrested. So some of them went to Canada,
including my friend Linda. She went to Canada.

JJ:

She’s still alive? Did you see her?

SA:

I think she’s still alive, but I never heard from her after that. Never communicated
with each other.

JJ:

But she had been visiting you when (inaudible)?

SA:

Oh, [01:22:00] she visited me with other people from AFSC. And there was a
Reverend [Horton?], who came out and made it a point to visit all conscientious
objection and people who objected to the war.

JJ:

Now, were you a member already of American Friends, or that came later?

SA:

No, I was already involved with American, not as a member, in their activities.

JJ:

In their activities.

53

�SA:

I never joined formally the American Friends Service Committee, but I knew they
were --

JJ:

You were working with AFSC?

SA:

I knew them and respected them. Because they were the group that defied
United States and took medical supplies to Vietnam at the threat of being fired
upon by US Naval. They went that far. So I say this group has a history of
defending what they considered right, because they were very much involved in
the anti-slavery struggle. [01:23:00] So I knew that they were serious about what
they thought was right and fighting for that, not just praying, but actually doing
stuff. And I was not a member, but I did go there and used to get material
translated into Spanish and pass them out. But I was not a member. There
weren’t many Puerto Ricans there.

JJ:

In the jail in Marion?

SA:

No. No Puerto Ricans in Marion. Or many Puerto Ricans involved in the antiwar movement in Chicago. Yes.

JJ:

But you were the first draft resister.

SA:

That’s right. Like I said, I became, well-known in Chicago and in the Black
community. But even Dick Gregory came to my house and visited my mother
and father. I think Obed Lopez [Zacarias] had a lot to do with that when he came
to my (inaudible).

JJ:

[01:24:00] Now, so you come out, at what year did you come out of the jail?

SA:

Oh my God. About 1985 or 1986.

54

�JJ:

1986? That was later. No. No, I mean that you came out of the jail for the drafts.
I think it was in the ’60s. Well, I remember --

SA:

No, it was ’64 when I graduated from college, Roosevelt. So I was in the 1960s
that I came out of prison.

JJ:

That’s what I mean. It was the ’60s.

SA:

Not the ’80s. Did I say ’80s? Oh, please. No, no, that was the ’60s. It was 1960.
I think it was 1965 or 1966.

JJ:

1966?

SA:

Yes.

JJ:

Because you came out and you were in the riot. The riot came later, right?

SA:

Well, there were two riots.

JJ:

What’s the first riot?

SA:

[01:25:00] The first one is when I first was there as a young kid, and I asked the
policeman to escort me out of this dangerous place on Division Street. Then the
second one, I was --

JJ:

Because I know there was a riot in North Avenue, but maybe (inaudible).

SA:

North Avenue? No.

JJ:

At St. Michaels.

SA:

No, I wasn’t aware of that.

JJ:

So there was another one in Division Street before that?

SA:

Yeah, 1966. Well, I think they approached me when they heard that I refuse
induction.

JJ:

Is this Obed Lopez from -- ?

55

�SA:

Obed Lopez from Latin American Development.

JJ:

Latin American Defense Organization?

SA:

Latin American Defense Organization.

JJ:

So they approached you, and did they go to see you in jail?

SA:

Oh, yes. We want to support you. They say yes. So we got together.

JJ:

They visited you in jail?

SA:

No, before that. Before I went to jail, they came out. And I became a [01:26:00]
member of LADO supporting the whole idea of trying to develop a bigger
conscience of the war in the Puerto Rican community. We used information from
the American Friends Service Committee, so I used to go there to get ideas for
leaflets. We used to print a newspaper. [Nuestro Pueblo?], I think it was, and I
used to write for them. And from there, I used to visit other places in Chicago
that dealt with the whole question of Latinos involving social service advocacy
and civil rights issues. And Obed saw me there, he approached me and said,
“Yes, I’ll work with your organization.” Voluntarily. Because people think you
used the word work is that you’re paid. Actually, volunteers pay for volunteering.
[01:27:00] That’s my experience. They don’t pay us what we pay to volunteer
and work for those organizations. But anyway, so we did a lot of marches
against the welfare department that did not want to have people who speak
Spanish in the offices and things like that. And Obed, of course, used to get his
head cracked once in a while by the police when they invaded social offices that
dealt with welfare. And there was a group of women primarily who were involved
in that organization. So that’s how, and then we worked together in that issue

56

�and other issues afterwards, after I came out of prison. I continued involvement
with LADO, Latin American Defense Organization.
JJ:

You never went to jail after that or anything like that?

SA:

I went to jail once, but that was [01:28:00] when I was a member of the
Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition. I told you that was a group that grew
out of NCO. We felt that we needed an organization strictly Puerto Rico or Latin
American. And Peter Earl was an organizer for NCO, and Tyson to come and
help us organize Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition. Reverend Morales
was an active member of the NCO. We attracted him, and we formed the
Coalición Accion Latina.

JJ:

How was that kind structured?

SA:

Well, we structured that as a membership organization of other organizations.
So I came there representing (Spanish) [01:28:46], and other people came
representing other organizations in the Puerto Rican Latino community.
[01:29:00] So it was a membership organization made up of members of different
organizations.

JJ:

But not the organization, just members from each organization?

SA:

Yeah. But we did a lot of action as members of the coalition.

JJ:

So I understand they used the model of Saul Alinsky type of organization?

SA:

Well, yes. The people that we attracted were Saul Alinsky people, individuals
who worked for NCO.

JJ:

So NCO was a Saul Alinsky type of -- ?

SA:

Yes, it was.

57

�JJ:

And so you attracted those people into the Westtown Coalition, Concerned
Citizens Coalition?

SA:

Correct. It was -- got funding to continue this organization.

JJ:

Now, they were pretty active for a number of years. Even after the ’60s, Young
Lords, they were pretty active.

SA:

Yeah. Well, basically --

JJ:

Did you know about the Young Lords at the time at all?

SA:

I knew about the Young Lords as soon as I got out of prison.

JJ:

[01:30:00] How did you learn about them?

SA:

Well, I read about you guys.

JJ:

In the jail or out here?

SA:

It was outside. It was pretty hard to get information because there was a lot of
censorship of material that we could get. I knew about the Young Lords.

JJ:

So how did you feel about that group?

SA:

They were nationalists.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

Yeah, I related them.

JJ:

(inaudible) from Puerto Rico.

SA:

And I was working for volunteering, and I didn’t even want to say working --

JJ:

So how did you feel?

SA:

(inaudible).

JJ:

(inaudible) somebody else (inaudible)?

58

�SA:

And then we felt, oh my God, we wish that the Latin Kings could do the same
thing. And we opened a lot of offices for the Latin Kings. And soon, we found
out that that was not going to work.

JJ:

[01:31:00] What do you mean?

SA:

I mean, we opened up things so they could get there and use the space, and
then suddenly, we discovered they were sneaking in drugs. And one time,
somebody overdosed, they had to take the person outside of the building to the
back door. And we said, “This is not going to work.” So we separated it.

JJ:

So they didn’t stop their gang activity, or did they try? Were they trying?

SA:

I think they meant well, but I don’t think they really have an idea of really doing
what the Young Lords were trying to do. They just talk about it. And we
believed.

JJ:

You believed them?

SA:

Yeah. And we soon gave that idea up because it didn’t work. They were
interested in other things.

JJ:

So you’re with the Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition, and you’re working
with the (inaudible) Cultural Center?

SA:

Ah-huh.

JJ:

And can you explain who they are?

SA:

[01:32:00] Well --

JJ:

And how you got involved.

SA:

Well, I got involved because I was working for Aspira after I got out of prison as a
educational counselor and club organizer.

59

�JJ:

Now, you got paid for Aspira, though, did you?

SA:

No, Aspira was a paid job. And as Aspirante organizer, I went to different high
schools throughout the city of Chicago, basically Gage High School?

JJ:

And the purpose was what?

SA:

Organize clubs to get people interested in education, getting a high school
diploma and going on to college, and bringing in some of the cultural things that
seemed to be so important in terms of Puerto Ricans, because there was no real
attempt to educate us or ourselves on our [01:33:00] own history. We heard
things like in the schools, Puerto Ricans have no history. I remember one person
was working, who worked for one of the organizations, I don’t want to mention
the name because it’s the husband of somebody who was a leader in one of
those. And he argued with me. The Puerto Ricans had no history. And I didn’t
even say, “You mean no history? Even a rock has a history.” And I felt that
Puerto Ricans needed to know something about themselves in order to feel good
about yourself, you have to know something about yourself because if all you
hear that you’re just gang members, you’re here because you are too lazy to
work. You come from the island to get welfare. That kind of lies. (inaudible)
some of us actually believe that. They tell you something, you tend to believe
that is true. [01:34:00] But then the people I saw around me, there were some
people who live in welfare. But most Puerto Ricans had a job. A few of them did
not, that’s true. But that doesn’t make the whole Puerto Rican community a
welfare-dependent community. So we talk about those things, and we had
cultural events at the schools in which we celebrated Puerto Rican days. In fact,

60

�one time, I went as far as pushing -- not pushing, but convincing our students to
join a takeover of North Avenue Beach. It was a takeover, Puerto Rican takeover
of North Avenue Beach.
JJ:

When was this? About when?

SA:

I think that was around early ’70s.

JJ:

Early ’70s?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

And why would they want it? I thought that was already a Puerto Rican area.
North Avenue Beach.

SA:

Well, I don’t know. [01:35:00] But people went there. But we were going to claim
North Avenue Beach a --

JJ:

A Puerto Rican beach?

SA:

A piece of Puerto Rico.

JJ:

A piece of Puerto Rico?

SA:

So we went and convinced our students to get together, and we brought flags,
and we rode in a U-Haul van. And we went over there, and we put the flags,
“Lovely Puerto Rico,” blah, blah, blah. And then the FBI actually came out and
was trying to find out why we were taking over the beach. It wasn’t like occupied
Chicago now in this space, but it was something similar.

JJ:

What do you mean the FBI came out? How did you know that they were FBI?

SA:

Because they identified themselves. “Why were you doing this in the beach?”

JJ:

Were there a lot of people that came?

61

�SA:

A lot of people were there because people who used the beaches. The students
were very [01:36:00] happy and having a great time.

JJ:

You were in the Humboldt Park community. Why didn’t you go to Humboldt
Park?

SA:

Because the students were not from Humboldt Park. This was a student from
Gage Park High School. And this is what they related, North Avenue Beach, so
that’s why we took over North Avenue Beach.

JJ:

Actually, there were Puerto Ricans going at that time to North Avenue Beach?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

A few.

SA:

From different parts of the city.

JJ:

But it used to be an Italian and Polish and German beach before that. When the
Young Lords were gang, we remember us taking it over, but we didn’t do it that
way. (inaudible) but there’s another.

SA:

We have fun here.

JJ:

So it was a good event and everybody came and (inaudible)?

SA:

Yeah. (inaudible).

JJ:

You were under surveillance?

SA:

Yeah, we were.

JJ:

One of the things that Westtown -- was it Westtown Concerned Citizens at all
[01:37:00] involved in that -- ?

62

�SA:

Well, we developed a housing organization called [CHECK?], a guy named [Bash
Smith?], which later, this CHECK later developed into LUCHA, Latin United for
whatever, something, which is still a housing organization that exists now.

JJ:

So what are some of the issues that you -- ?

SA:

We work on employment. I mean we did a whole bunch of marches and taking
over lobbies of different post offices because we wanted the place opened to
more Latino workers in the different post offices. Of course, a lot of educational
stuff we did, including battles against principals who were racist and had a clear
anti-Puerto Rican [01:38:00] agenda in the school. So we fought with that. In
fact, Reverend Morales got arrested and beat up in one of those schools.

JJ:

Reverend Morales, Reverend Jose Morales?

SA:

Yeah, Reverend Morales. He was a great activist at that time. Jobs, I think for
the post office. Education, primarily, issues. And housing were the three issues
that we --

JJ:

You also did police abuse also? No?

SA:

Well --

JJ:

Not a lot?

SA:

I don’t think we dealt with that much.

JJ:

So jobs, housing, and education?

SA:

Yeah. Those were the three main areas of Westtown Concerned Citizen.

JJ:

Now, did you join any other organizations at that time while in the -- ?

SA:

Well, later on, [01:39:00] I became member -- not actually become a member of
the PSP, but I was one of the travelers.

63

�JJ:

What was PSP?

SA:

Huh?

JJ:

What’s PSP?

SA:

What do you mean?

JJ:

What did it stand for (inaudible)?

SA:

Puerto Rican Socialist Party. Puerto Rican Independent Socialist Party,
something like that. I don’t know.

JJ:

(inaudible)?

SA:

PSP, Puerto Rican Socialist --

JJ:

In Puerto Rico and it was here also?

SA:

Yeah, right. So I belonged to them.

JJ:

And that actually (inaudible)?

SA:

We did some marches.

JJ:

(inaudible) Movimiento Pro-Independencia in Puerto Rico?

SA:

It was here, became the Movimiento Pro-Independencia. But then later, they
became --

JJ:

The PSP?

SA:

PSP. But on the MPI, Movimiento Pro-Independencia, we participated in lot of
political forums with other organizations. Some of these were left organizations
from United States.

JJ:

Well, I remember the Young Lords were learning a lot from the Movimiento ProIndependencia in Puerto Rico. [01:40:00] (inaudible) started, that’s all we heard.
So they were here. (inaudible).

64

�SA:

We were bringing Mari Brás, all those people here to Chicago.

JJ:

They were pretty activists, pretty good activists.

SA:

And we participated also with coalitions in the area of education. We organized
the people’s --

JJ:

And this came later?

SA:

It was -- what is that?

JJ:

(inaudible)?

SA:

People part of the Puerto Rican Parade? Contingent. That’s the word we used.
The Puerto Rican -- the Socialist Party Contingent of the (Spanish) [01:40:37] of
the contingent of the Puerto Rican --

JJ:

Puerto Rican Parade?

SA:

Parade. We marched with them. We had a lot of forums. We even visited
churches. I remember (inaudible). (inaudible) was very active in that
organization. Later became active in (inaudible). She wanted to address a
group here, [01:41:00] Amigos de la Justicia Social, Friends of Social Justice.
And it was a Protestant church. And when she said that, all the group of the
(inaudible), said, “Amen.” And I said, “Oh my God.” This is when we were
working against Plan 21.

JJ:

Plan 21, a lot of people, they’re hiding that. They don’t want to admit that, City
Hall doesn’t want to admit that there was a Plan 21. But everywhere you go,
people know that that existed. (inaudible).

SA:

Plan 21 was the Mayor Daley’s -- I think it was the old Mayor Daley.

JJ:

The old Mayor Daley?

65

�SA:

The idea of separating or getting poor people out of the center of the city. Some
of the plans were to make Milwaukee Avenue like a boulevard, with trees in the
middle, blah, blah, blah, blah. Close that street for buses and move poor people
away from the [01:42:00] center city, away from the -- where the El-lines.

JJ:

Subway (inaudible).

SA:

Yeah, the subways. Because it was an easy way to get downtown. And the idea
was, “Let’s bring all these people who left the city back to Chicago and build the
economic base for a new city for the 21st century.”

JJ:

So the people that went to the white flight, the white flight to the suburbs, they
wanted to bring them back into the city?

SA:

That’s right. In order to build a strong economic base for the city.

JJ:

So that was (inaudible).

SA:

And bring all those people back here and build up a new community.

JJ:

Did they actually put this in their publicity?

SA:

Yes, there is that book. I used to have this book. I don’t know who might have it,
but I bet there must be in some kind of archives, Plan 21.

JJ:

So you were fighting them (inaudible) lawsuit?

SA:

We’re fighting. We even joined other groups and sued the city.

JJ:

Tell [01:43:00] me about that. About the lawsuit that you did.

SA:

Well, we stopped for a moment the continuation of that plan. But the plan
continued to evolve. And look, you see, this is the 21st century. What’s
happened to the Puerto Rican and poor communities that lived in the areas of

66

�Milwaukee Avenue. The area is close to downtown. They’re well developed with
condominiums and stuff like this.
JJ:

So even though there was a court ruling, they still continued?

SA:

They continued. They (inaudible), they continued. And it has built up to what the
city is now, really.

JJ:

Because it’s expanded to the lakefront?

SA:

Gentrification. I think we call it now gentrification of Plan 21. But gentrification
means removal of the Cabrini-Green homes. They have been removed.
Removal of the other public housing in State Street. [01:44:00] They have been
removed. And all those areas that were burned after the Martin Luther King
murder, those areas have not been developed until now. They’re beginning to be
developed into condominiums. Not for working class people, but for people who
have wealth, or at least now the working poor. So that plan has been successful
by the city of Chicago.

JJ:

And what were some of the neighborhoods that were destroyed there?

SA:

Wicker Park, Puerto Rican.

JJ:

Was primary Puerto Rican?

SA:

Bucktown.

JJ:

Bucktown was primary Puerto Rican?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

It was destroyed?

SA:

It’s beginning now in what we call Division Street.

JJ:

Humboldt Park.

67

�SA:

Division Street, Humboldt Park. Just look down on the Ashland and --

JJ:

What I [01:45:00] heard from --

SA:

Ashland and Madison.

JJ:

Noble and Chicago Avenue. What about that area?

SA:

Well, that area was taken in consideration, but NCO had a settling plan because
they built those co-ops. And we still have many Puerto Ricans and many
primarily now African-American people living there. They didn’t turn out to be a
white lily.

JJ:

So that area, there was (inaudible) some organizing then?

SA:

But now, some of the houses have become condominiums or mansions.

JJ:

Well, Cabrini-Green housing in --

SA:

Cabrini-Green is completely gone now.

JJ:

So that was also right around here?

SA:

That was also plan of the 21.

JJ:

Chicago Plan 21.

SA:

To take all these poor people, move them out into the city, move them out of the
city and bring the other people.

JJ:

And when you went to the Puerto Rican Congress, how does that area look?
Lincoln Park?

SA:

That area, to me, they look -- [01:46:00] it wasn’t that Puerto Rican. At that time,
it was pretty white.

JJ:

At that time?

68

�SA:

Yeah. In fact, they move out almost like a year later from the area and came
back to the Puerto Rican community in Humboldt Park, Westtown.

JJ:

Oh, yeah, those people got pushed out from that area, but it used to be Puerto
Rican (inaudible).

SA:

But I remember that when I knew that they were going to be moving to Ogden, I
found it strange because I didn’t see too many Puerto Rican life there.

JJ:

Because Ogden came from -- the Puerto Rican Congress was in Ogden in a
sense.

SA:

They were not there that long. Many years. They move out almost immediately,
about two years after they organized it. And I think they moved to North Avenue
because --

JJ:

It spread to North Avenue West.

SA:

Because that’s where the Puerto Rican Congress built the building.

JJ:

You’re talking about the Puerto Rican Congress?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

[01:47:00] They weren’t there that long.

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

They started later.

SA:

That became actually Caribe Ruiz’s domain.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

Who did a good thing in terms of the bands.

JJ:

Yeah, there was a big movement of the bands at that time (inaudible).

SA:

That’s right. The salsa bands.

69

�JJ:

The Mafia, you said. Your group. (inaudible)

SA:

No, no, my brothers were not involved.

JJ:

They were earlier.

SA:

The bands were actually salsa band. They were not like conjuntos, which is
different. They’re not band. They’re a group of people who play guitar, blah,
blah, blah, blah, that kind of music. But the salsa bands were -- the salsa bands
were trumpets, wind instruments, and percussion. The other group is Puerto
Rican, like popular music, but the emphasis was on guitar playing and singing.
[01:48:00] Okay, not salsa for dancing. I mean, not that the people didn’t dance
the other thing. But it was not like a salsa craze that later developed into what
people consider Puerto Rican. Although it’s not strictly Puerto Rican. It also has
Cuban influences, but developed in New York City, among most Puerto Ricans
who had a great part in developing that music. It’s in bands.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

I could come here to talk until twelve o’clock.

JJ:

No, that’s fine. (inaudible). What are you doing more or less because you’ve
been involved with Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center, and so what are you doing now?
What are you doing today?

SA:

Well --

JJ:

And this was back in the ’60s.

SA:

That’s right. When I continue working [01:49:00] Ruiz Belvis for years, because
to me, culture was very important because it’s the roots of an identity that people
live in order to feel strong and defend their personality and defend their

70

�idiosyncrasy as a Puerto Rican community. So I continue working along with
Ruiz Belvis, which I’m still a board member now. And I had gone from president
to secretary, treasurer to janitor. All the time, janitor, because we always -- the
people who organize these groups and work for them had to keep the place
clean because lack of funding. So I continue being that -- now I’m just a board
member.
JJ:

Where are they located now?

SA:

They’re located now on a building that we acquired about four or five years ago
near Pulaski and Armitage.

JJ:

Pulaski and Armitage. And so they’re involved in what? What are some of the
groups that [01:50:00] play here (inaudible)?

SA:

Well, right now, we have changed a little bit of our agenda. We don’t do much
bomba and plena because we felt that everybody’s doing bomba and plena now.
But when we started that, many Puerto Rican community people felt that that
was no Puerto Rican music. That was African music. And we are not African.
We’re not Blacks, the idea. So this is not Puerto, this is African music, the
bomba and plena. Now, all the --

JJ:

Puerto Ricans are three races though, right?

SA:

Well, we are a mixed group of people. Spanish and other European because
there were a lot of Italians who moved to Puerto Rico. French was the second
language of Puerto Rico until 1898. Not English -- French. Italians and other
people. You look at Puerto Rican’s last name. [01:51:00] There’s some Dutch
names; there’s some German names. The Oppenheimers for example, how is

71

�that Puerto Rican? And Irish. A lot of Irish went to Puerto Rico. And then of
course, Africans, origin people. And the Italian Indians were not all killed by the
Spanish, as history tried to teach us. Actually, what happened is that the Puerto
Rican Taínos moved to the central part of the island, and then they married
Spanish, and they became the (Spanish) [01:51:40], really. So that’s why we still
have like eighty percent of our county genes are Taíno. And the thing is, maybe
if they were killed, it was basically the men because the hard work, the mines
and stuff. But the women, [01:52:00] they just went to any part of the city, any
part of the island, became Puerto Ricans. And now you still can see a lot of
fragments of facial features that are Taíno. But they live in the central part of the
island. And of course -JJ:

Is this part of the (inaudible) do this history also?

SA:

We do the history, the classes on Spanish and history. But right now we’re doing
a lot of events in the schools in which we’re bringing the whole salsa -- not the
whole salsa, the question of African-oriented Puerto Rican music into the
schools, with young kids. That’s our main focus now. (Spanish) [01:52:47] which
was ours for many, many, many years, as all organizations, got into troubles,
internal issues, they sort of like split. And that [01:53:00] one group, some of
them continue to work with us, but some of them, they felt that would betray
them. Those kinds of things just happen to many groups and organizations,
especially cultural groups. They say cultural groups don’t last too long. And
people were amazed that we were able to keep this group for twenty-five years
or something like that. So I’m still involved in that. Now we do the celebration of

72

�the freedom of slavery in Puerto Rico, which is very important. People don’t
know about the history of that in Puerto Rico. Even teachers, I was surprised
one time I mentioned this. I was doing group (inaudible) came to the center. We
discussed about the history, and one said, “Why do you have so many people
here?” And I said, “No, there was no slaves in Puerto Rico.” He said, “What are
you talking about?” [01:54:00] That’s why we celebrate the birth of Ruiz Belvis
because we have Puerto Rican -- he was responsible for freeing the AfricanPuerto Ricans and other Caribbean Puerto Ricans from slavery. And she said,
“Ah.” She went like that. She couldn’t believe that there were Puerto Ricans
who were slaves. And this was a bilingual teacher. And I said, “What is this
woman teaching Puerto Rican kids?” So we celebrate the freedom of AfricanPuerto Rican people by the Spanish in April, 1872. So we still have that program
going on. But we bought a building, and it came [01:55:00] very difficult to rehab
it because now with this situation, where are you going to get mortgages? Where
are you going to get loans to fix a building? So we’re going through some
difficulty, financial. And of course, with the opposition of where we were, we had
to sell our building because one day, we woke up, there was no Puerto Rican
community there.
JJ:

So you were in Wicker Park?

SA:

That’s right. There was no Puerto Rican community there.

JJ:

So you had this displaced. (inaudible) organization.

SA:

So we had to find another place.

JJ:

And you had been there for how many years before you got this place?

73

�SA:

Thirty years.

JJ:

Thirty years? And then you got this place?

SA:

Yeah. So we continue working that, trying to get the members involved also in
social issues. This is a new group of people who have no idea of the struggles
that we went trying to get an organization like Ruiz Belvis. [01:56:00] They think
Ruiz Belvis might be just singing thing. It’s not considered by many new people
as a cornerstone of Puerto Rican identity and defense. And that’s what we used
to involve ourselves in housing problem, work problem. Now they say, “Oh, we
do this. You lose your 501(c)3.” I said, “Oh my God.” But anyway, most of our
people are grown old.

JJ:

This is (inaudible) the new board?

SA:

This is the new young people who are interested. They’re slowly developing the
sense of -- but it’s difficult.

JJ:

Anything you think that we need to add to close? Any message that you think we
should tell our community?

SA:

We have to continue to fight for our identity and defend those things that make us
who we are. A Puerto Rican nation closely tied to Latin America. [01:57:00]
Many people think that we’re not Latin Americans, you know. And unfortunately,
people in Latin America think that we are just Americans. They think that we
have it so easy here because we are American citizens. And I just want to say, it
doesn’t make a difference if you are a citizen or not. Just look at the AfricanAmericans. They’re citizens. What have they acquired? What they have
acquired is going to struggle. What the Americans here have done is to struggle.

74

�A group -- people that doesn’t struggle for what they think is just is bound to die.
And I don’t want our community to be considered one of those groups that came
here and died up or disappeared within the mainstream of the United States. I
think this is not a melting pot. This country is actually -- some people like to say
a salad, different groups of people together, [01:58:00] but with their own
idiosyncrasies, their own roots and their own ideas of who they are. And we also
feel that as Puerto Ricans, we need to join the struggles of other organizations or
group of people like us who are fighting for justice, who are fighting for freedom,
who are fighting for a better life for their children and for themselves and their
community. And this is what African Americans have done. This is what
American Indians have done. This is what other groups in the United States
have done, including the Irish, and other groups that were Americanized at one
time or another. I hope we don’t fall into the trap that because we’ve been here
so many years, that we feel we’re better than other groups that are just coming in
and treat them as bad as we have been treated. So I believe in freedom, justice.
I believe definitely, [01:59:00] you have to struggle to get what you want
because nobody’s going to give it to us. We have to fight the enemies that don’t
believe in those traits of justice, equality, and freedom. Then we lost. We have
to join those people, be part of them as they’re part of us in our struggles. The
building that we acquired, we didn’t have the money. And it was a Jewish couple
who had more money than we do, who gave us close to $60,000 to buy this
building. No strings attached. They were going to lend it to us. Then they said,
“Just keep it. We’re moving out of Chicago anyway.” They ended up moving to

75

�San Francisco, but they gave us the money, and that’s how we acquired the
building. I mean, besides all the contributions in the community. But the majority
of the money that we got to buy this building, the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Center
[02:00:00] was from other groups who play an important part in our development
as an organization and developing our consciousness in terms of we’re people,
just like everybody else. Every people has their own culture. Every people has
their own idiosyncrasy. We have to accept them the way they are, but learn to
live together.
JJ:

Now, were you able to get any grants at all?

SA:

We have received grants, but grants usually for our groups are very small. It’s
usually the big established organization that get much of the money. So defend
what you got and fight for it. That’s what I say. And not oppress others because
you’re different and they’re different.

JJ:

What other organizations [02:01:00] did you become members of?

SA:

I had become a member of various organizations. Even when I went to Puerto
Rico, I founded an organization in Puerto Rico, for (inaudible) I lived and then I
moved to Chicago. Another group that I had a lot of influence in me, besides the
Puerto Rican Independence Group, was the Communist Party of United States.
The reason being that they seem to have fought for the kind of issues that we,
Puerto Ricans are interested in—social justice, equality, the end of racism,
opportunities for everyone, living together no matter what race you are. We’re
working together because we are all workers. And as workers, we deserve to be
respected. Because who creates the richness in this country? It’s the people

76

�who work years to build the factories, to build the roads, [02:02:00] to build
everything that we have become used to. Who are the ones who invent the idea
of social services? It was the communist party with the party members or people
like them who struggled for an eight-hour day, who struggled for benefits, from
the units like Medicare, who struggled for social security when there was none in
this country. It was people like them who talk about workers having rights to
defend and organize in order to defend your right or else, they’ll be at the mercy
of the owners of the corporations and capitalists. And who formed or was right in
this country. Who formed the richness of this country? It’s the working people.
So I think -- and that’s why I became a member later of the communist party.
JJ:

So you felt it important because they work for the [02:03:00] working people,
you’re saying, the working men? (inaudible)

SA:

Right. Yeah. And they were --

JJ:

They’re kind of outcasts in the United States, of course, because they’re --

SA:

Well, because at one time, they were influential.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

The structure of the government made a point to destroy them because they
became afraid of what the communists were doing, organizing the working class,
getting the AFL-CIO all together. And they forced the unions to kick all
communists out. And then anybody who wanted to say something, and if they
wanted to punish these people that accused them of being a communist. And
the McCarthy era, a lot of people who had nothing to do with communism were
destroyed because they couldn’t find jobs. Some of them committed suicide, or

77

�else they changed their names. And especially people who work in the movie
industry, who has stories to tell [02:04:00] so they could not get jobs. And this
kind of tradition continues. It’s not as much as before, but many people still are
afraid that the communists are the devils.
JJ:

(inaudible) the image that is (inaudible).

SA:

And you know they work for --

JJ:

But actually, they’re in many countries.

SA:

Oh, yes. It’s a worldwide.

JJ:

It’s worldwide.

SA:

Worldwide. They understand their --

JJ:

Especially in this country, it is a free speech country that people should not have
to worry about that.

SA:

Well, it’s free when it’s free. But when they decide to shut us up, they would do
the (inaudible).

JJ:

(inaudible)? (inaudible).

SA:

That here where organizations were infiltrated, where members were putting
traps so they could be considered criminals and arrested them. So it’s freedom
until [02:05:00] they think that we’re stepping on their toes and then they want to
shut us up. And we always have to be aware of that and be careful and not be
shut by them because of fear.

JJ:

And that’s one of the reasons you also joined that organization?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

Okay, just to (inaudible).

78

�SA:

And I saw a lot of people who were in prison, who died in prison, who were
punished in prison, like Winston. He was blinded in prison because he was
accused of being a communist, and the prison wanted to oppose --

JJ:

Who was it? Winston.

SA:

Henry Winston.

JJ:

Henry Winston.

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

So he was blinded in the (inaudible)?

SA:

He lost his eyesight.

JJ:

He lost his eyesight?

SA:

Yeah. The people now, from Puerto Rico are there. Oscar Lopez, and people
like that who have been terribly --

JJ:

Oscar Lopez is a member of the?

SA:

So-called FLNA.

JJ:

FLNA?

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

And he’s been in jail for over thirty years?

SA:

That’s right.

JJ:

And basically, [02:06:00] there’s no proof that he has done anything except stand
up for Puerto Rico, I guess.

SA:

Yeah.

JJ:

He believes in that.

SA:

But he was --

79

�JJ:

He was in his truck.

SA:

He’s also considered enemy because he had a lot of influence with groups like
NCO. He was an organizer for NCO.

JJ:

Oh.

SA:

Northwest Community Organization.

JJ:

He was a paid staff?

SA:

Yeah, he was paid organizer for NCO.

JJ:

For the Northwest Community Organization?

SA:

Correct. Saul Alinsky organization.

JJ:

Saul Alinsky organization? So I wasn’t aware of that, that he was a member of
that. I know that he did something at the University of Illinois. He was in a
student group there, I believe.

SA:

Well, he was not a student there, but he helped organize the student group,
(Spanish) [02:06:48], which was basically an organization planning to have
Latinos receive scholarships to open the doors so that more Latinos [02:07:00]
will enter the University of Illinois. (inaudible) campus at that time, not just the
University of Illinois.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

So I continued working with them.

JJ:

(inaudible).

SA:

I marched for jobs, I marched for -- I take petitions for laws that had to deal with
social security, unemployment. We do things, demonstration against abuses of
organizations and people. But now, we’re involving occupied US Chicago with

80

�people who are like us and working for getting benefits, recognized in fighting
against those people and organizations that try to take all benefits that have been
won by struggle, like minimum wage, like social security, like unemployment
insurance, you go on and on and on and on. Scholarship for students, [02:08:00]
saying that students should not be abused by the loans that they receive. And
they had to spend many, many years in debt to get an education for a position.
And now what do you see now? Many college students cannot find jobs either,
but they’re in debt, thousands and thousands of dollars because the kind of
legislation that made possible for banks to get hold of those funds and offer loans
to students that they cannot pay for.
JJ:

Anything else we need to put in there?

SA:

I think I said it before. We have to stick together. If we want just justice, we got
to fight together. Recognize who’s the enemy, and be wise to know who’s your
friend and who’s not your friend. [02:09:00] And not be afraid of doing things that
you know need to be done because people say it’s dangerous for you. I think if
you only think of yourself, nothing’s ever going to change. We have to think for
everyone. So that’s why I’m a communist now. Oh my God. He’s always been
a communist. Yeah.

END OF VIDEO FILE

81

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The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. </text>
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                <text>Sijisfredo Avilés is the first Puerto Rican in Chicago to publicly oppose the Vietnam War draft during the middle 1960s. He quietly served three years in jail for refusing induction in 1968. Born in Puerto Rico, Mr. Avilés’ family moved to Chicago in the early 1950s, settling around Chicago Avenue and Noble Avenue, just west of Ogden Avenue and downtown. Mr. Avilés has been a lifelong advocate for the poor, Latino self-determination, and human rights and worked closely with the Young Lords. </text>
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                    <text>ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
WILLIAM A. SIKKEL
#1 of 2
Transcribed by Joan Raymer May 11, 2007

Birth date: November 25, 1920
:50 I started out as a Private and went through the enlisted rank up to Staff Sergeant. I
was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in Australia, came home as a Captain and
reorganized the Holland, Michigan National Guard Unit and retired as a Lieutenant
Colonel. 1:10
Interviewer: “When did you join the National Guard?”
On my eighteenth birthday.
Interviewer: “Why?”
Well, I had an uncle that was in at that time and I kind of idolized him. I had a dad who
was a WW I veteran and who was a Dutch immigrant. He was red, white and blue and
things like Memorial Day and any holiday was sacred. 1:45 I guess it was ingrained and
I guess I, for some reason or other, took a liking to the concept of leadership and troop
organization. That pretty much motivated me to join. And I imagine the tail end of the
depression and a few extra dollars must have factored into it sooner or later. 2:13 My
clear and dear preference would have been to fly, but once you’re in the infantry, you’re
in the infantry.
Interviewer: “Had you ever traveled outside of West Michigan before you joined the
service?”
Outside. A few trips to Chicago, I remember a group of young men took a bunch of us
kids to Detroit to see a Tiger game and then we crossed the Ambassador Bridge into

1

�Canada and that was a biggie, 2:48 other than that, no. I was pretty much restricted to
the midwest.
Interviewer: “When you joined the 32nd Division of the 126th Infantry [126th Infantry
Regiment of the 32nd Division], did you understand the history of that division?”
Not that division, I understood the history of the local unit, but at that particular point in
my life, that was pretty much it. I knew somewhat of the structure, that it was pretty
much West Michigan, anchored in Grand Rapids, which was the 126th headquarters.
3:19 A that point in my career I stuck with the basics and that was my local unit.
Interviewer: “How many of the 126th Infantry Company “D” did you know personally
before you went to Louisiana?”
I would suggest that I was quite familiar with at least 50 that I can say I knew quite well.
There were several that were considerably older than me and we didn’t have a lot in
common, plus the fact that most of them had significant amount of rank and I was just a
lowly Private. 3:57 You didn’t get too familiar with Sergeants in those days.
Interviewer: “How did Holland send you off when you went down to Louisiana?”
The word is “you” there and I have to qualify that. We left the city in October of 1940.
There were, and I am guessing, six of us who were sent early that day. One drove the
unit commander’s car, another one, who eventually became my brother-in-law, he drove
his car down, my 1st Sergeant drove down with his wife and we were asked to drive
someone’s car down, so the six of us left in the morning. 5:00 The rest of them left that
evening from the railroad station. Your question was the community, if I recall the
question and let’s put it this way, “enthusiastic, emotional support from the time the unit

2

�marched out of the armory until it boarded the train.” That was all information I received
from my buddies once we joined each other in Louisiana.
Interviewer: “What were the fears and questions you had as you were leaving?”
5:47 That is a good question and in retrospect, I’m not trying to suggest that I am more
adventuresome than most, but I must have felt a challenge, so outside of the basic
homesickness, I just saw it as an opportunity. 6:13 When you go with a group that you
know so well it makes it so much easier. We knew the communication was going to
continue once we got there and that pretty much alleviated any anxiety. And quite
frankly, from a very personal perspective, I must have seen a challenge. I had a dad who
was a perfectionist and I had a very difficult time pleasing him. That doesn’t mean I
didn’t respect him, I just had a difficult time appealing to what he was trying to make me
and I knew there was no possibility that we were going to be on the same page or the
same network. That contributed somewhat because it gave me a comfort zone 6:58 and
I had to prove something to myself.
Interviewer: “ Where were you when you heard about the Japanese attack on Pearl
Harbor?”
I was quite frankly having dinner with a wonderful family in Alexandria, Louisiana. We
were treated extremely well down there. Many of us met many, many wonderful families
down there who invited us for dinner quite frequently. It happened to be a family that
invited me to dinner that particular noon and I was there at their home when we heard it
on the radio. 7:11
Interviewer: “What was your initial reaction to that?”

3

�That I had to get back to camp. I happened to have, I think I was at that time a Staff
Sergeant, what they call a recon or reconnaissance car, which was a military vehicle and I
was smart enough to know that I better get back to camp with that. 8:01 So that is
obviously what I did. Your next question might be “What did you experience when you
got back to camp?” and I would be happy to answer that question.
Interviewer: “How did your training vary for going to the south Pacific?”
It didn’t, all of our training up to that point was training for what we call open warfare.
8:33 What I mean by that is typical Michigan terrain. Hills, valleys, woods, open fields,
rivers, that’s what we were trained for. We didn’t have a clue to what a jungle was like.
Sooner or later you might ask the question “where did you go from Louisiana?” and that
will qualify somewhat the answer that I am giving you now. Outside of the fact that we
did a lot of training on our individual weapons, like pistols, rifles, mortars and the typical
enemy training like chemical warfare, cover concealment, camouflage, anti-tank defense,
communications all those little things, those are the things we were taught and most of
those you could use no matter where you went. 9:24
Interviewer: “In terms of your training, did you use live ammunition during practice
and drills?”
If you interviewed many who were in active duty that early, you probably have been told
that we faked a lot in those days and by that I mean, we didn’t even have weapons. 9:48
So if we didn’t have weapons, we didn’t have live ammunition. So for example, in my
case, by that time I was in the 81-Mortar Battalion and we used fence posts to simulate a
81 mortar. Obviously you can’t shoot out of a fence post, but what you can do is learn
the tactical deployment of a mortar because the basic principals are lob it up and lob it in,

4

�so the angle of the angle of the fence post would be proportionate to the angle of what the
mortar should be and the reason that’s significant is because the mortar person selects a
totally different kind of terrain than artilleryman would for example, because a mortar
shell goes up and over where an artillery shell goes in flat. 10:37 Therefore, you have to
hide behind a hill and shoot over it, that’s the ideal situation.
Interviewer: “when you were stationed in Louisiana, did you have any funny or strange
things happen in camp?”
Lots of them, some are cultural and some are climatic. Cultural is obvious, a bunch of
Yankees out of Holland Michigan and placed in Louisiana, plus remember it was 1940
and there were still people thinking Civil War down there and we were in the eyes and
minds of a lot of people “Damn Yankees”. I recognized early on that there were two
types of southerners, the rebel southerners and the southern genteel. 11:27 And those
southern gentlemen and ladies, they were a fine bunch of people; they made us feel very
welcome. That’s the first observation, the second, climatic, going to a football game on
Thanksgiving Day in a tee shirts and umbrellas was totally foreign to me because you
button up pretty good when you go to a football game in November here generally
speaking. Then of course the terrain, if you have ever spent any time in the “boonies” in
Louisiana you’ve heard about red clay. 12:08 We had a cliché that went something like
this, “Louisiana is the only place in world where you can be up to your rear in mud and
have dust in your eyes”. Essentially that’s the way it is and when that mud cakes on your
shoes your carrying a few extra pounds around. So that translates into where we lived,
we lived in a tent city because there certainly weren’t enough quarters for the rapid
expansion of troops, so the only permanent buildings were the mess hall and that had a

5

�sand floor and the latrine or the bath house at the end of the street. In-between there were
tents and wooden floorboards and a stove that burned wood, so the funny part of it is that
it was not unusual to come in from field training and find two or three tents gone because
the sparks would ignite on the tent and that was the end of the tent. 13:08 I could go on
and on about all the weird things that happened, but I’ll just give you one quick one. We
had been given a course by the doctor on what to be careful of such as Tarantulas, you
always move the leaves out of the way and then you sit for a class or whatever and would
you believe, I sat right on a Scorpion. 13:33 Needless to say the doctor was right there
so I had first aid right now, it was a little humorous. That was a practical explanation of
what first aid is, but I never planned it that way.
Interviewer: “Did you receive any shots before you left and did you know you were
going to the South Pacific?”
No we didn’t have a clue we were going to the South Pacific, shots yes, in fact I realized
that some of us older people have a crummy sense of humor but it’s not unusual for a
veteran to call a nurse a blood sucker. 14:20 You may have heard that before, but we
had our blood tested so often and we had so many shots that it gets to be routine. Back in
those days particularly because now you get on an airplane and fly to another country and
you don’t get immunized or segregated when you get there. Back in those days one way
to control disease was, number one with shots and number two, wherever we went into
we went in isolation for at least 3 days until we were acclimated to the country we were
in or the location we were in. 14:54
Interviewer: “San Francisco, how did you get there and what was it like when you got
there?”

6

�Would you mind it I went to Fort Devens Massachusetts before we get to San Francisco?
There is a reason for that. The Michigan and Wisconsin National Guard were the 32nd
Division and we were sent to Louisiana obviously to train for the event and in that
alleged 1 year, it was extended considerably. Therefore, I believe in March of 1942, we
were sent to Fort Devens Massachusetts. The obvious question is, “you were going to
Australia and New Guinea, what were you doing in Massachusetts?” 15:50 The answer
was, our division was sent to replace the 1st Division who were at Fort Deveins
Massachusetts at the time. The “Big Red One” you have heard about and we were
destined I understand, for Ireland as a staging area. 16:03 If you read in history about
the time in Corregidor and General Macarthur’s situation at that time, he was promised
an army in Australia by President Roosevelt. Therefore, we were diverted from Fort
Devens Massachusetts to San Francisco. We didn’t know where we were going except
we were going to San Francisco. My dad died that week so I hitchhiked with the 127th
Infantry out of Wisconsin and ended up in California and boarded ship about 6 hours
before we left. 16:39 Never the less, we didn’t have a clue as to where we were going
except obviously we weren’t going to Europe.
Interviewer: “Did you hear anything aboard ship, any rumors or any sort of report as to
where you were going and what it was like?”
We weren’t told anything and I have a short diary at home, but I think it was the fourth
day out of San Francisco when they finally told us where we were going for two reasons,
one to satisfy our curiosity and stop the rumors and the other was, that was the time they
began our little lectures on the cultural differences between Australia and America.
17:29 You wouldn’t think there were that many cultural differences, but even their slang

7

�language is totally different than ours, so we were prepared to understand what we were
getting into once we got to Australia. Where in Australia was a clue and could be a
follow up question “did you go where you were intended to or did you go someplace
else?” I sent you some suggestions and I don’t know if you want to get into that now or
later. 18:00
Interviewer: “In terms of the transport over, what was the experience like waiting?”
Good question, and the reason it is a good question is the use of what we are doing now
and you are doing now is such that we are trying to convey is the difference in
transportation then and now. 18:33 If you were to watch TV tonight you would probably
see someone getting on an airplane and flying of to Iraq or someplace. Number one, we
went from the east coast to the west coast on a train and that in itself it totally different
than hopping on a plane and flying over to San Francisco and getting on a plane. The
second thing is getting on a ship because that’s the way troops were shipped in those
days. In our case it was a whole division, a whole division which at that time was say the
Triangle Division in the neighborhood of say 9,000 – 9,600 men all in one convoy with
freighters. 19:13 And slowly, slowly because we had, I guess, 14 ships in our convoy
and we could only go as fast as the slowest freighter, so even though we were on the so
called flag ship Matson line and she had a sister ship Mansonia, we could only go as fast
as the slowest freighter which was something like 14 knots, so that plus zigzagging, it
took us 25 days to get from San Francisco to South Australia. 19:50 The reason for
going to South Australia, I will share with you right now, is we were headed from [for]
Brisbane which is on the North East quarter, however, while we were on that timeline on
that map that I showed you earlier, the timeline would suggest that the Coral Sea battle

8

�that was taking place off to the North while our convoy was headed for Australia. 20:19
I don’t recall at that point of us having any Navy escort. 14 ships and no naval escort
because they are all committed to the Coral Sea battle and we could see the flashes in the
distance. About this time, and this is all speculation, the speculation we all seemed to
agree with is that at that point we were diverted to South Australia instead of Brisbane
because Brisbane would have been right in line with chaos so we went to South Australia
which is considerably farther away. 20:55
Interviewer: “Tell us about the Neptune Ceremony.”
Huh! That’s a Navy tradition when you cross the equator funny things happen and I
don’t know if it’s a get even time with the cocky characters who need a little extra
trimming, I don’t know. I was pretty lucky, I just got thrown in a pool, but there were
those should I say, you probably heard about high school freshmen or college freshmen
that’s the kind of treatment they got and some of it was pretty raunchy. 21:32 After it
was all over you were given a certificate having been honored by King Neptune and that
you crossed the equator on such and such a date. Which brings up an interesting point,
my wife’s brother at that time, who was a high school buddy of mine, and two other
fellows did a lot of singing. And one way to keep from getting sea sick was to get up on
deck, so we’d get up there and sing as a quartet just for fun, so we slept on deck one night
and when we woke up in the morning we had nothing in our pockets. 22:07 Somebody
had stripped our pockets including the certificate I had received from King Neptune, so I
have never had one since. I do not have any indelible proof that I went across the equator
Interviewer: “Did you carry any personal items with you on your trip over.”

9

�The few dollars we had and our personal luggage, which was in what we called a G.I. bag
with all our clothes and whatever and that was it, personal stuff, no. Do you want a little
humor interspersed into this, or not necessarily?
Interviewer: “Of course.”
We had a 1st Sergeant who lived in Holland who was what I would call the epitome of
what a soldier should be. 23:03 By that I mean he knew what he was doing, he was a
fatherly figure, he was considerably older than most of us, a very kind, judgmental, fair
minded individual and he hardly ever, only twice in my personal experience with him,
that he violated the law or rules and I was with him both times it happened. The first
time was, he had this barracks bag over his shoulder and he was walking off of the gang
plank into the ship and he got about the first flight down and he lost his barracks bag and
in the bottom of the bag was a bottle of scotch. He sobbed over that bottle of scotch. We
weren’t supposed to have personal stuff and he had that personal bottle of scotch. 23:53
Interviewer: “Did he have a name?”
VanAndroy, Gordon and I, we must have talked about Sergeant VanAndroy.
Interviewer: “What was you impression of the Australian soldiers?”
“May I digress for just a minute here?” I’m trying to throw in here what I think is
significant and if you don’t want me to do that let me know. 24:23 When we left San
Francisco, we were told all about the people in the Pacific, well Gordon might have
shared with you, within an hour out of San Francisco the sea sickness set in. Imagine
7400 troops on one ship and once that starts it gets contagious and so much for that, I
don’t want to go any further than that. Then we went between Tasmania and Australia
and we were in the wildest sea you ever saw and this is a huge ship and to this day, since

10

�I loved to skate, I thought, “wouldn’t it be wonderful if I had roller skates and when the
stern came up you could just go down the hull and when it flipped back you could turn
around and go back and you could do that all day long.” 25:12 Anyway, I didn’t get sea
sick. Now I ducked the question. The Australian people were wonderful. Gordon was
there a couple of years ago and he probably shared with you. Anytime I see or talk with
anyone who’s been there recently I want to talk to them because I want to find out if my
memories are the same as what things are today. I have yet to run into a person who
doesn’t love the Australians. The Australian soldiers, that was an interesting case in that
not only, if you watch British TV or BBC the Brits have a style of humor that is so dry
well, the Aussies are like that, very much like that. 26:08 When you consider who we
fought with in New Guinea, we fought with Australian soldiers who had fought in Syria,
Libya, Crete, Egypt and haven’t been home. They went straight from Libya and Crete to
New Guinea without even having a chance to go home. Can you imagine? Now, not only
did they have an Australian, British sense to life, they also had a devil may care attitude
and let me qualify that. The American army, we were trained sound discipline, tight
discipline to the point where it was just gospel with us. We would even tape our dog tags
so we didn’t make noise while on patrol. 26:58 Those Australians, when it came 3:00 in
the afternoon, they could care less where they were or under what situation, you’ve heard
of billycans, well they had to boil their tea. There were two principles we were taught
and one was noise. “How do you boil tea in a tin can without making noise?” and
number two “How can you conceal your location by building a fire?” That would scare
us and we would avoid them at that time because they could care less. Now I often

11

�wondered if it was their makeup or if they had been in battle so long, they didn’t care.
27:36 I don’t know what the answer to that is, but they are wonderful people.
Interviewer: “What training did you receive in Australia, if any?”
Pretty much the same as what we had in Louisiana and in Fort Devens, Massachusetts.
We were still for some silly reason being trained for open warfare and I am convinced
that our leaders didn’t have a clue as to what jungle warfare was like and if they did, it
took us quite a while to learn all the nuances because, just for example, coral shells, Coral
hardpan, something we didn’t have a clue of and I’ll expand on that a little bit. By this
time I was a 2nd Lieutenant in the pre-WWII army and a 2nd Lieutenant was pretty hot
stuff. You had a G.I. to do all your grunt work for you and that particular night, the very
first night we were in New Guinea, we were bombed and we were told to dig foxholes.
28:51 I figured I was a Lieutenant and somebody would do it for me until the first or
second bombing and there was a Lieutenant Colonel with a pick ax digging a hole in the
shale and I thought, “if he has to do it, I guess that I have to do it too”. The answer to
that is, “How do you make a foxhole deep enough in shale, rock and coral to protect
yourself?” That’s the first lesson in tropical warfare. The second is obvious, in addition
to climbing, rain, rain, rain, mosquitoes and everything else, but jungle foliage is so thick
that unless you see it on TV it’s pretty difficult to explain. 29:33 In fact it’s almost
unbelievable when you do try to explain it. And you may or may not get into the story
about the airplane I lost . You ask the question,” why sixteen years?” well, I can give
you an answer to that.
Interviewer: “What were your experiences leaving Australia? How did you reach the
island?”

12

�Except for the unit that Gordon was with, Gordon Zuverink is who we are talking about
and who you interviewed before, the 2nd Battalion 126th Infantry, which was comprised of
2 units from Muskegon, Grand Haven and Big Rapids, they were close to new Guinea as
I think was Gordon’s unit, Cannon Compan, I’m almost certain it was, and an anti-tank
company of the 126th. The rest of us went by ship from Brisbane Australia and again, I
don’t know when you want to cut this off, but I think this is significant in terms of what I
call logistics. 30:39 When we left Adelaide Australia to go to Brisbane Australia, we
loaded everything on flat cars and box cars and at that time Australia had 3 railroad
gauges. Maybe you heard this before and maybe you didn’t. We got to Melbourne and
took everything off the train and re- loaded it on another train because they had a
different gauge. Then, I don’t know if we got beyond Sydney or not, when we got into
the 3rd gauge. 31:10 We took everything off that train and put it on the next train so that,
plus the passenger cars, which were rather antiquated. “Does that answer your
question?”
Interviewer: “On to New Guinea. Did you understand the mission as you left
Australia?”
We did, we did because things were crucial at that point. The obvious question is, “what
are we doing over here when were supposed to be going to Europe?” The answer is
obvious. President Roosevelt had promised MacArthur troops and there weren’t any
outside of the Australians so they sent the 32nd Division from the east coast and right
behind us was the 41st Division who replaced us in New Guinea, so that would give you
roughly 18,000 – 19,000 troops, two divisions and then the Marines. First the Marines
were there and they went to Guadalcanal, so we were it as far as New Guinea was

13

�concerned. 32:23 When we left Australia to go to Port Moresby the Japanese were
roughly 25 miles from Port Moresby. The significance of that is, number one, it was on
the forward slope of the mountain facing Australia and number two, there were two
airstrips there that would have given them the capability of taking their fighters and
bombers and flying over Australia. 32:56 And whether or not you’ve ever been involved
in history to the degree that I am going to share with you, the Australian government at
that time had pre-determined that they were willing to give up a portion of their country
for a battleground. Therefore, there was a line established from east to west. You’ve
heard of the Siegfreid line in Europe, well this was the Brisbane Line and the Brisbane
Line was an arbitrary line across the country yet the Japanese landed on north like in
Darwin and this is where we put up our defense. Well it didn’t get to that point. They
did bomb Darwin, but no one landed in Australia. 33:40 We landed in Port Moresby
New Guinea as did the Australian Cavalry in that case and chased them back over the
mountains to what became the Buna campaign, so that again precipitates a lot of
questions. The first question is “what kind of training did you have?” Well, we didn’t
have much training because as it turned out in addition to trying to live under tropical
conditions, we were hit with immediate dysentery. Immediately. Plus, if you follow the
field manual on leadership you will find there is such a thing as a staging area, then
there’s a departure area and then there’s a final line of departure and then you go into
combat. 31:31 Well, there wasn’t such a thing in Port Moresby. Port Moresby was the
Port and within three miles you were climbing mountains so there was no place to train.
So that was it, the disease hit us before we ever started up the mountain and Gordon’s
unit as you know from the interview, they took three or four days from Port Moresby

14

�across the mountains chasing the Japanese all the way. The Australians, they took one
route and we started on, in our case, November 10, the airplane incident you might want
me to talk about and we chased the Japanese all the rest of the way to what became the
Buna Campaign. The reason it became the Buna Campaign, we compressed them to a
point and they wouldn’t give so that’s why it took them so long to get to the sea. 35:26
Interviewer: “You mentioned a little bit about the disease and terrain, but how did you
deal with morale, was there a loss of morale among the men?”
Not at this point, not at this point, weakness, but no, I don’t remember seeing any loss of
morale until we started seeing our friends getting killed. Then the morale changed, but
even then we kept on going because it’s amazing how you condition your mind in a
situation like that. Most do, not all , but most do. 36:05
Interviewer: “Tell us what happened aboard the airplane. Were you aboard the
airplane?”
Well, I was and that is an interesting story, a story in itself. The 1st. and 3rd. Battalions of
the 126th Infantry, we were involved in the first airlift into a combat zone in the history of
the U.S. Army. The group that Mr.Zuverink was with went up the mountains in advance
of us and they, along with the natives I’m sure because I never did find out officially how
this happened, but there was a flat area in a native village called Pongani, which was on
the side of the mountain and they had to take their machetes and chop grass until it was
smooth enough for us to land. There had to be an officer on each airplane and I was
assigned two airplanes because my platoon couldn’t possibly fit on one plane plus there
were some additional troops for some other reasons that happened to be on those two
airplanes. One airplane was called the “Flying Dutchman” and since I’m from Holland

15

�obviously and the pilot was of Dutch extraction, American, but of Dutch extraction, I just
made up my mind that I would fly on the “Flying Dutchman.” 37:27 The other plane
was called “Golden Eight Ball.” The chaplain and I were standing side by side and I said
“Chaplain, I think I am going on the “Flying Dutchman” and he said “why don’t we flip a
coin?” We did and he went on the “Flying Dutchman and I went on the “Golden eight
Ball” and the “Flying Dutchman crashed about of a half hour after they were airborne
into the jungles. 37:50 I don’t think Gordon would have spent any time on that because
he was way beyond that point. There is a very, very in depth story about that, that you
can embellish at a later date if you want. Out of the original 29, including the crew, there
were eventually 6 survivors in two groups. One group of 4, which included my platoon
Sergeant out of Jamestown, Michigan and 2 who included the crew chief of the airplane.
The rest were either killed on impact or had broken arms and legs. A couple went
looking for water or some semblance of a trail and were never heard from again. 38:44
those who did stay near the airplane died one at a time. They kept a diary on the inside of
the door of that airplane, which partially had burned in a fire, and the first entry was
dated November 10, the date of our operation and the last entry was January 1. For your
information that door is on display at the Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton
Ohio now and I tried to get it to Holland Memorial Day because I was the speaker there
and I thought it would be ideal to get it into our museum, but even our U.S. Congressman
couldn’t get them to part with it so I would encourage anyone who ever does go there to
be sure and look it up. 39:28 It is on a table encased in glass and there is a printed diary
and I have a copy of the diary myself, plus I have a diary of my platoon Sergeant who
land navigated for, I think I sent you a copy of the story of he and I in the newspaper. He

16

�took the compass out of the dash of the airplane and he and 5 others land navigated for 30
days over the mountains until they were finally intercepted by some friendly natives who
brought them back to Port Moresby. It was incredible. 40:05 The obvious question is,
“Why did it take 16 years to find that airplane?” Former president Jerry Ford was our
congressman at the time and I was, I don’t know, a Major or a Lieutenant Colonel in the
National guard and I had written to him and said “if you hear of any airplanes that are
found, because I had been reading about it, named such and such, contact me” and it was
a few days later that the AP called me and said that the airplane was had been found.
Now this is 16 years after it went down. 21 years after it went down another research
team went in and found the airplane, took the door off and brought it to the museum in
Papua New Guinea, which is unheard of when we were there, but they did and they in
turn gave it to the U.S. Air Force. 41:02 That’s an interesting story, it’s a tragic story,
but how they land navigated through that jungle for that many days is, and the interesting
thing is that by the time Ed, my platoon Sergeant finally did get back to Port Moresby, I
had been pretty much clobbered with malaria and I’m laying in a hospital bed looking out
the window in Moresby and he walked by. Needless to say that having been his platoon
commander, I had to send a missing in action envelope back to his wife and I said to him,
“Ed, get to a cablegram as fast as you can and let your wife know where you are.” He
hadn’t even gotten malaria by that time and I just can’t imagine that because 83% of us
did and he hadn’t gotten malaria at that time. 41:57 That’s a long way from the airplane
ride, but it did save, in our case we only had to walk 11 days through those mountains
where Gordon and that group walked 34 days, so it did save us a lot of time, but it was
still rough.

17

�Interviewer: “Can you explain your first experience with the enemy or in a combat
situation?”
I am going to proceed with caution here because the last thing you want to hear is some
of the things we really experienced and you’re not going to hear that from very many
people. I will tell you this; to psychologically adjust to some of the things that you might
run into is a “work in progress” and that is a cliché today. Coming down the mountain,
“do you have in your notes the airplane story about shooting down the Japanese Zero?”
I’ve got to inject that. Were coming down the mountain now and were heading into
combat. We were given absolute instruction, “no fires, do not give your position away,
the Japanese are going to be looking for you, they know you’re up in the mountains, so
don’t shoot at any airplanes. 43:19 We were on the forward slope of the mountain and
by that time this Japanese Zero was harassing us to the point where someone couldn’t
take it any longer and he had a clear shot with his rifle at this airplane coming right
straight at him straight down the valley and he fired off a round. The hilarious part of it
is that he must have hit the gas line because that airplane went down in flames “right now
in a second”. If he was up there trying to find out where we were and radio back, he
never had a chance, but you would have thought you were at a U of M football game
hearing those guys cheer, it was absolutely incredible. 44:02 That’s our first close
combat experience although we had been bombed frequently back in Port Moresby.
Harassed. Getting back into combat, were coming down the mountain and you begin
hearing the rifle shots and machine gun shots and we knew what that was. That’s when it
starts getting real and that’s when you start working yourself into, it gets real. The first
observation we made is this; the Japanese you may have heard many times, had a way of,

18

�let me put it this way, if your on the offense and their on the defense and they’ve had a
series of defensive positions coming down the mountain, pre planned and that’s an
interesting story in its self if you want to get back to it. 45:05 Why we didn’t use their
locations and there is a good answer to that, anyway, once we can compress them against
the sea were not going anyplace very fast. They know were coming, they’ve had lots of
time to dig in under coconut logs and bunkers and I’m sure you’ve heard and read all
that. They had their fire lanes and by fire lanes I mean their machine guns are tucked
across this way, so you’re going to get somebody sooner or later When you’re in grass 68 feet high and you’re trying to get through it, you don’t have a clue when you’re going
to be able to get through without being detected. So the Japanese would have fire lanes,
pre planned, so if anybody exposed themselves, all they had to do is pull the trigger and
so you had to find out where those were. 45:57 The way they operated, they were up in
coconut trees and they were observing. They would telegraph who was coming and who
they were and that sort of thing. The very first Japanese casualty I saw really set the tone
of our attitude because remember, killing is something you’re trained not to do. The very
first person that got shot out of a tree, right outside of our headquarters was a Japanese
Captain. He had a saber with him and he came out of that tree and landed right in front
of us, so we went through his pockets to check and get military information as fast as we
could. Would you believe the very first picture I saw was USC, University of Southern
California, that’s a turnoff if there ever was one. You’d think that having been in this
country in itself would have kept him from doing that. That was the first one. The first
experience I had taking out a patrol and I’ll qualify that. When I was commissioned in
Australia, just before going to New Guinea, my assignment was to command an anti-tank

19

�platoon. Well, whoopty-do, there are no tanks in New Guinea and there are no tanks to
shoot at. So what do they do with me? Well, they made me a patrol leader and that’s not
conducive to good health because you never know where you’re going to go and you’re
usually in some area that you prefer not to be. 47:36 The very first patrol I took out, and
to this day I don’t understand with all that tension why we had so much self control, you
should understand that the average trail was no wider than this table and the rest is
foliage, were at a curve in the trail and here comes a string of Orientals. Now I don’t
know about you but to this day I have a tough time determining who is Japanese, who is
Chinese and in some cases Filipino, so when you’re in that kind of situation with that
kind of tension and something like that happens, “what do you do?” For some unknown
reason or other I said, “don’t shoot” and this guy had no uniform and he held up his
hands and said, “don’t shoot, me no Japan boy, me China boy”, and he must have had 14
or 15 with him. Now the Japanese use the Chinese as coolies to do all their grunt work
and carry all their stuff like we used the New Guinea natives to carry our rice and all that
stuff. So needless to say, if you know anything about military intelligence, if you did
capture a Japanese soldier there is no way your going to get any information, no way, if
they were alive and they wouldn’t let themselves live and you couldn’t do anything about
it. 49:10 These Chinese boys were obviously a good source of intelligence so I sent
them back to our intelligence people and they interrogated them and I’m sure they
learned a lot. Beyond that a question anyone would ask is “did you kill anybody
personally, how many?” and that sort of thing. I’m not going to go there, but I will say
this, “one of the peculiarities of jungle warfare is that if the average American, the
average person knew how many Japanese they killed, they would be astonished and the

20

�reason is, we had to fire against sound. Most of the time, we didn’t see them. I will give
you one example and this is later on about the time that we penetrated through. 50:05
My experience was heavy weapons, machine guns, mortars and that sort of thing. There
was a Captain out of Grand Rapids by the name of Russ Wyle, who was a heavy weapons
unit commander and he and I got along just famously well for a lot of reasons, but one
reason was that he and I understood heavy weapons. When we were in combat, we were
at the mercy of ammunition that was kicked out of airplanes. We had no other supply we
didn’t have a vehicle. We had nothing, so you can imagine what ammunition looks like
when it’s kicked out of an airplane that is flying on its side and food incidentally, that’s a
story in itself . 50:38 Anyway we salvaged what we could of the 81MM rounds and we
stacked 3 mortars side by side maybe an arm’s length apart and the Japanese were very
predictable, I said for example, that as they went down the mountain they had, what I
would call, a headquarters base along the trail. They figured those lazy Yankees will just
use our base and we did, we went across the trail. Then the Japanese Navy would shell
where they had been assuming that we were there and we were just across the trail. Very
predictable. They always left stacks of rice, stacks of Sake and a lot of other stuff, which
communicated that they weren’t in too healthy condition. 51:35 We didn’t touch and
rice or any Sake period. It could have been poisoned or it could have been booby
trapped, we don’t know so we left it alone. This Captain and I, we got our heads together
one day and decided that since the Japanese had a tendency to get drunk on Sake, if you
left them alone long enough. We would do that and then we would stock pile any ammo
we could get and when they decided to get drunk, we just poured it to them. 52:10 And
if you left them alone for two weeks they would do the same thing again and that’s how

21

�we won the war. Incidentally, I think I sent you a picture of the Japanese Colonel that he
and I went to the commanding Generals staff college together. That’s interesting, very
interesting. Many may not appreciate it, but I thought it was quite nice.
Interviewer: “Do you remember the first casualty you saw?”
Yes, I sure do. I had a direct appointment from Sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant, which is
unusual, as did my wife’s brother and my cousin who became the vice President of
Hayworth and died a couple of weeks ago. There were 9 of us, I think, out of 9600 who
were commissioned by direct appointment through written and oral examinations and the
question, I’m deviating a little bit. What was the question again? 53:16
Interviewer: “What was the first casualty you saw?”
The first casualty I saw just happened to be a young Lieutenant that was commissioned
the same day we were and this was maybe the second day we were in combat. I was
again leading a patrol along the trail and there he was lying off the side of the road. I’m
not going to explain the condition he was in, but that was the first one. Every once in a
while you would run into one or you would hear about one. You get morning reports
telling you who got killed and from what unit and that sort of thing. That’s the tough
part. We had again, since my brother in law and I were commissioned, your natural
tendency is that your enlisted buddies are your buddies, but in the military there is a line
of demarcation between being a buddy and being a leader, so they transferred us out of
the Holland unit into the Grand Rapids unit so we could be away from our direct
contacts. There was one particular morning, for some reason or other, I just walked
across the trail, maybe 100 yards and chatted with some of my buddies from Holland.
54:45 I went back to my unit and within 10 minutes, 12 of them were killed. They just

22

�happened to get hit by a Japanese Navy barrage and I was that close to being there with
them. That’s tough. That is really tough.
Interviewer: “I have to ask you about MacArthur. How did you view MacArthur?”
I don’t think I’m in the minority, I hope I’m not in the minority, and I don’t want to
create the impression that I’m a brilliant tactician, but I do think that it’s fair for me to
say that one of the reasons my wife’s brother and I were commissioned Lieutenants is
that we probably look at the big picture and that’s why we became officers. I heard a lot
of guys complaining about MacArthur when we were in combat and we were in combat
to the point we were, I think, down to somewhere around 10% of our original troops
strength by the time we were replaced. 56:03 I don’t think the average person had a clue
as to why and the reason why is there was no alternative. You had to hold the ground
with what you had. Therefore, we took a terrible beating physically and many other
ways. I personally, the very first time I heard General MacArthur speak was about a
week before we went into combat. I would have gone through a brick wall for that man.
No question about it. 56:30 Then once I became a casualty, I mean a malaria casualty,
the first experience I had with him was, we were outside the combat zone and refresher
teaching 81 MM mortar and the army regulations say that “upon a visitation by an
inspecting officer, the assisting instructor shall report to the inspector.” Now you heard
and seen all about MacArthur with his flag flying and all that stuff and I just happened to
look up and there stood MacArthur leaning up against a tree sucking on his corn cob
pipe. There wasn’t any evidence of anyone else around, so I sent my assistant instructor
over to report to him like your supposed to and he said “just keep doing what your doing,
I just want to see what your doing.” 57:24 That was the first time, the second time was,

23

�we were in a casualty area where we were being rehabilitated, in New Guinea and the
officers, needless to say, were separated from the enlisted men and some of us, I wasn’t
one of them, but some of the officers bought Australian horses. This was back in
Australia and we built a corral and we rode horses. The nurses rode horses and we all
rode horses. One day MacArthur came showing up and he was death on booze, really
death on booze and would you believe where he met us was a junction between the
officers quarters and the post and above the post was a sign “Bottle Boulevard”. 58:12 I
thought, “boy were going to get chewed here” and he looked up and he said “gentlemen it
looks like the morale must be pretty good here”. Now, the man had an ego that wouldn’t
quit, no question about it. If you analyze why he was what he was and the condition
under which he had to fight, with his arms tied behind him, because if you read history in
depth, you find out the first team is in Europe, no question, two reasons, the first reason is
obvious, political, the second reason was in terms of distance, the third reason was that
right here in this city, you have Polish, you have Jews, you have Catholics, you have
protestants, you have Dutch and in those days people could identify with their families,
therefore, their families in the Netherlands or wherever were being punished and
therefore, we should go and help them no question, but who ever heard of Buna, New
Guinea? 59:15 That’s part of the problem. The other part of the problem was that
professionally, General Macarthur had some buddies that didn’t like him too well
because he bypassed them in a hurry getting promoted and he was, as one person
classified him as the American Caesar. I have to throw this in, Senator Fredricks, a state
Senator at that time and I were invited to a 100th anniversary celebration of MacArthur’s
birthday in Norfolk Virginia and we were personal guests of Mrs. MacArthur at a dinner

24

�and Sunday morning we joined her for “The Memoirs”, the movie, the bio. We were in
the bookstore and there were two books there. “Macarthur the American Caesar” and
“the Memoirs” or something like that and I said “Mrs. Macarthur would you sign this,
autograph this for me?” She said “I will that, but not that one.” She just despised that
other book, American Caesar. Past 60 minutes to :21 on the same tape.
We had a close relationship. Other than that, because of my long involvement with the
military since WWII, it is only natural that I would study the tactics and strategy and
when you think of what the man had to do, he did a great job and if you look at his
casualty percentages for the real estate he took, he did a commendable job. :50 I wasn’t
too comfortable with the Truman firing of MacArthur, but at that time I was a student at
Commanding General Staff College and some of the faculty were members of
MacArthur’s staff and so I shared with them what my personal feeling was and they said,
“you may feel that way, but you must remember the president of the United States is the
president of the United States.” MacArthur was insubordinate, no doubt about it he was.
1:21
Interviewer: “In a couple of sentences, how would you sum up your experiences in the
Pacific?”
The most difficult thing was time and distance. We couldn’t tell our families where we
were. “Somewhere in the South Pacific” that’s pretty general, so when your family reads
about what’s going on in the Pacific they can come to all kind of assumptions, they don’t
have a clue if you are in New Guinea, Guadalcanal, or where you are as compared to
today with videos and we have a grandson who is a Calvin student and he is sending us
communications through his laptop computer. That’s the most difficult thing, worrying

25

�about the people back home and their worrying about you and your not getting you mail
for 30 days, so your disconnected from the world. 2:32

26

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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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                    <text>ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
WILLIAM SIKKEL #2
Interview Date: 11/07/05
Transcribed: May 6, 2007 by Joan Raymer

The enlistment was about a hundred. I think the last numbers we had were 104 or about
that. They changed it because too many were leaving.
I took a patrol one day and I passed out. I don’t have a clue how I got back to port. All I
know is when I came to we were a hundred and some miles away and I was loaded on an
airplane. I didn’t have a clue as to how it happened. 0:31 The first thing I remember is
the nurse told me I had a 105.6° temperature.
Interviewer: “You were close to boiling.”
That was pretty high. I was wrapped in an ice pack and Cannon towels. 0:44
Interviewer: “Were you ever injured?”
That is a joke because we used to kid some individuals as being recipients of a Purple
Heart because they cut their finger in a can. I was nicked so little on my leg that it wasn’t
worth going to the aid station with, so I didn’t. 1:27 I remember one bullet coming by
my head so close that I could feel the heat, but I wasn’t hit. I guess that is a good way to
answer the question. “I wasn’t hit.” malaria and the rest of the diseases that came with
it, was about all that I could handle.
Interviewer: “One of the problems we keep hearing about is supplies and problems
getting supplies.” “How did this affect the men?”
I think what hurt us most and I’m sure Gordon must have touched on this, when you kick
canned food such as corned beef out of an airplane and if it is lucky enough to hit the
ground, sometimes it would miss and go into the belly of the airplane, because the

1

�temperature was such that if you didn’t eat it right away it was going to spoil. 2:30 You
can imagine what condition those cans were in after they hit. The thing that bothered us
the most, at least me was, “have you heard about the rice in the sock? Have you heard
that?” You couldn’t cook it. We had no fire, so whatever you did have, you couldn’t
cook it so you couldn’t eat it. That bothered more than anything else. 2:52 Try to eat
rice that is soaked in a can all night. It doesn’t get very soft. Canned goods, whatever
they were, were eaten cold is cold that’s it.
Interviewer: “At night in the jungle, what was it like?”
Strange, because you never know if your going to make it through the night intact or not.
The biggest problem is obvious, it was mosquitoes. 3:47 There was no way to avoid
them. We did have some spray cans, but we were either wet from rain or wet from sweat
so any spraying you did was almost meaningless. We were given order to keep our pants
on. The only clothes we had were what we had on so your hands are bare from your shirt
on down and in the morning your hands and wrists were pretty raw from where the
mosquitoes went to work on you.

4:21 Because the anopheles mosquito was prevalent,

“How do you avoid malaria? There is no way.” That is by far the worst. I sent you a
picture of an individual on a rack of branches about a foot above the water. You just
can’t comprehend what some of the jungle is like. I did send you a picture of the
individual walking in the mud with the boot. Once you walk on the trail with 50, 60 or
100 people, it becomes a quagmire in a hurry. 4:53 So night time, that and the
uncertainty of what might happen, but you get so fatigued you get in your little foxhole
and you go to sleep. There are exceptions though, I remember we threw cold water on a
guy who had a nightmare and then we told him to shut up and we threw some sod at him.

2

�Well in the morning when we got up, he was dead. 5:19 He had a heart attack and died.
We didn’t know that, we just tried to shock him out of his delirium. You can’t get away
from the rain. There is no way you can get away from the rain and that is difficult. You
can’t get away from the hot sun. That is difficult and the humidity is incredible so
nighttime was no relief in the jungle. Along the shore it was wonderful. It was
wonderful anyplace along the shore. 5:53 There was a nice breeze and that is where you
wanted to be. But that was limited to about 2 miles.
Interviewer: “How were orders given and received during the Buna Campaign?”
Very interesting question and the reason it is interesting is this. How we were trained.
We were trained to receive orders by message blanks, arm and hand signals and radio
orders. In the jungle the first orders were to take off all of your insignia. So if you met
somebody you didn’t have a clue what kind of a rank they had. The second thing we
learned was that arm and hand signals were suicide. 6:37 These Japanese, being up in
the trees, more often than not would see you coming and all I had to do was give a hand
signal and they would know that I was the leader. So you had to think of almost a
whispering campaign. I remember a Captain friend of mine, he got so paranoid that it
was months after we got out of combat and he still whispered for fear of being hurt. 7:03
I guess that pretty much answers your question. It was a whole different means of
communication. I can give you one humorous example, at the time it was pathetic, but it
is humorous. We were going into an open field, what I call an open field was a field with
6-7 feet of grass and a trail down the middle and coconut logs here and there. I knew that
because I had been through there before. When you’re around the perimeter, you’re in
cocoanut trees and you don’t know from now until then if you’re going to be observed.

3

�So you run the chance of running across this open field to get in the grass. I had a guy
ahead of me, usually when I had a patrol out you get to know who are the savvy leaders
and who are the followers, you can say “you were a Lieutenant why weren’t you up
front?”, well you can’t have control when up in front and on the other hand , you don’t
want to be a coward and be the last one. 8:02 So you compromise and I would usually
compromise by being the second or third one from the front. I would brief them before
we went as to what we could expect, if I knew what to expect. Several areas I knew what
to expect. This one guy, I don’t know how I could get through to that guy and make him
listen, so I said, “when you get on that trail you’re going to see a great big coconut log
across the trail.” “Don’t go over it, go around it because if they see you go over it they
are going to shoot you.” Would you believe he went over it and they got him right in the
rear. Well, I said, “now do you understand what I was talking about?” That’s training
the hard way, but I tried to tell them in advance what was going to happen. That is one
way of leadership. If you look at arm and hand signals and the mortality rate of 2nd
Lieutenants, you’re going to find that percentage wise it is very high. 9:08 The reason is
that with arm and hand signals you’re so trained to lead that it is almost a given, “how do
you communicate without doing it?” “If you turn around to talk, you’re a dead duck so
you have to figure out other ways.”
Interviewer: “Were you a man of faith before you went?”
“Oh absolutely.”
Interviewer: “Has that changed?”
“Yes, it has strengthened.” There is a correlation there that I think has some bearing.
9:42 It just so happens that the night before my 22nd birthday, which happened to be

4

�Thanksgiving day, so were coming up on that too, my now brother-in-law, who became
my brother-in-law, but at that time my “buddy” who was a 2nd Lieutenant and a machine
gunner, said to me “when we get back to Holland, what are you going to do?” 10:02 I
said “one, I am going to buy a sailboat and two, I am going to contribute to the
community to the best of my ability.” I was 21 years old now. That night I was selected
to run the first night patrol on the Sanananda trail. The day patrol was suicide and the
night patrol was unheard of, but for some reason or other that’s what the old man said he
wanted. 10:25 So I went up to the battalion commander that at that time happened to be
Major George Bond out of Adrian Michigan and my company commander and the
Chaplain and I emptied my pockets and I handed everything to the Chaplain and I told
him that if I don’t come back to send this to my mother. 10:43 I guess that is something
that you cannot forget. The next day her brother was clobbered with a mortar shell. I
survived that day I don’t know, faith maybe. Therein lies a real question of theology.
Her brother was killed in Anzio , but if it hadn’t been that her brother was wounded
overseas, I wouldn’t have ended up with his sister. 11:19 You look at fate in so many
ways. Temporary conversions, I saw lots of that. We saw lots of that, but faith ran real
silent in the individuals. You could just tell by their demeanor how comfortable they
were with what was going on. “Did I send you a copy of the diary of this Lieutenant that
died?” I have one with me and it is something you should have. This was a friend of
mine. He was a 27-year-old Lieutenant at the time out of I Company, which is a Grand
Rapids unit, but he was a reserve officer. 11:59 Now you understand that one of the
things your going to end up with in this interview is the differences, communication
being one, evacuation being another. Here is a man who is wounded by the Japanese; we

5

�can hear him holler for help. Someone sent a Captain, a Lieutenant, a medic and a
Sergeant, all out of Grand Rapids and all killed trying to save the Lieutenant. So the
order came out “no more”. Not too long after that I was sent out on patrol and on my
way back I decided on my own “I’m going to see if I can find Lieutenant Horton”. Well I
found Lieutenant Horton, but he had died. 12:43 He wrote a diary while he was dying
and it is awesome and I have it here, but the next to the last paragraph says something
like this. “I have a pistol and I could kill myself, but for some reason or other I don’t
think that God has that plan for me.” Then he said, “I now know how Christ felt on the
cross.” That is pretty heavy stuff. Anyway, I did find him and I did take his personal
effects and I did turn it in to the next higher command and it’s now history.
Interviewer: “When you came back to West Michigan, did you visit any of the families
of the men who died over there?”
I did, but I don’t know if I should go here. You might want to cut this off. 13:41 I am
morally compelled to tell you this story and if you want to follow through on a different
interview that’s fine. One of the men that left us in Louisiana, and I think I alluded to
that earlier, from Zeeland, a wonderful friend of mine, I talked to you about it before we
started taping, ended up as a prisoner of war in Tunisia, spent 2 ½ years in Germany as a
prisoner of war and when I came home from overseas his mother called me and said,
”when you go visit him at Percy Jones Hospital”, by this time he is a Captain, he’s sitting
on the floor in a hallway at Percy Jones, in a robe, staring off into space. 14:33 I stuck
my hand out to shake hands with him and he jerked his hand back and he said, “Bill, for
some reason I have an aversion to shaking hands.” His family was thrilled because that
was the first time he had talked. He had shock treatments and all that and eventually he

6

�regained his ability, but there is a part of his life that is gone. He later ended up with a
Dr. of Divinity degree out of Duke University and had a wonderful family and a
wonderful career. He finished a book about two weeks ago and he sent me a copy with
honors. 15:06 That’s wrong and there were others naturally. There were 2 brothers killed
in one day out of our outfit and naturally I went to see that family and others.
Interviewer: “Tell us what kinds of diseases you had other than malaria.”
It started out with dysentery and that needless to say weakened us to start with. Then
malaria, tropical ulcers, which is external on the legs, typhus, hookworm, ringworm and I
don’t know what else. 15:48 Jaundice, I have never gotten a straight answer on that one.
We ran out of Quinine because the Japanese had gotten a hold of it in Java so when we
ran out of Quinine right about that time they had come up with a formula called Atabrine
that you have probably heard about. We are convinced of one of two things, either the
product hadn’t been field tested enough or there were rumors that it had been sabotaged.
16:22 We started taking that and two things happened. Number one, we became yellow
and really jaundiced and whether that was a product of the yellow tablet, I don’t have any
idea to this day. I do know they certainly improved the technique of controlling malaria.
Interesting side here as I have shared with you before, our first campaign had 83%
malaria and our second campaign, which was the Aitape Campaign, someone conceived
the brilliant idea of going over with bombers first and spraying with oil and DDT. 17:06
They reduced the incidence, I am talking replacement troops, down to 6% and the third
down to 1% just by going over before and killing off the mosquitoes before going in. I
don’t think anything compares with malaria; I never realized how serious it was until I
discovered my own personal malaria with 6 months to go and spending time in the

7

�hospital. When you consider the people in foreign countries today who die because of
malaria, it is unbelievable.
Interviewer: “Considering injuries and sickness, how were people evacuated?”
That is a very interesting question and I am very glad you asked it. With today’s mindset
of helicopters and medevac and all that stuff, we didn’t even have a Jeep. We had
nothing except hand carry. 18:12 What I mean by hand carry, until we were well into
the campaign when we finally did get a Jeep that was brought in with an airplane, we had
a hand carry. Elaine’s brother for example, he was wounded and operated on in a thatch
roof hut with a mud floor and no windows and they used a flashlight for surgery and then
carried 6 miles back to another hospital out in an open field, which was bombed
incidentally and eventually over the mountain to New Guinea. So most of our medevac
was hand carry. Plasma was almost unheard of so the mortality rate compared to today’s
combat was very high. 19:01
Interviewer: “We are going to totally change now. Who was there to meet you when
you came home to Holland?”
Well my dad had died a week before I went overseas so the first thing I did was check in
with my mother because I was the oldest of 5 kids. I had a brother in the Air Force at the
time. The second thing I did was run over to see my buddy’s family who lived a few
blocks away. To greet us when we cam under the San Francisco Bridge and pulled into
the dock, the band was playing and of course that was fabulous and other than that I was
a troop commander of a train from San Francisco to Fort Sheridan Illinois so we were not
a unit, we were all individuals on that train and we went our separate ways from Fort
Sheridan home. 20:04 My mother, sisters and younger brother were all happy to see me

8

�as were my grandma and grandpa and the rest and my wife’s mother and dad because I
had been friends of the family forever. That was a good homecoming and the people
from my church were happy because I was one of the very first people from our church to
go on active duty so after 5 years that is quite a while. 20:36
Interviewer: “You said you wanted to buy a sailboat when you returned and you wanted
to contribute to your community when you returned.”
Well it took me 20 years to get the sailboat, but I did join the Chamber of Commerce and
I did join the Salvation Army Advisory board, in fact I’m a life member and still am. I
did get involved with the community through the Chamber of Commerce and eventually
the Kiwanis Club there and someone came up with the bright idea that I should run for
Mayor and that happened. Also, I made U.S. history by being defeated by a youngster
fresh out of college. We moved into Allegan County and I became a County
Commissioner and I was that for 10 years. 21:27 I guess that I lived up to my promise
that I would make a commitment to my community.

9

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                    <text>omestic Violence and Sexual Assault Awareness Month

SltENT
WITNESS

,~
t.

. ....
.

-. ~

PROGRAM

Tuesday, October 2, 2007
12:00pm Grand Valley State University
Grand River Room/ Kirkhof Center
Join the GVSU community in remembering West Michigan
women and their families that have died as a result of
domestic violence. Hear their stories and remember their
names. Music will be provided by the Voices of GVSU,
with opening remarks by Jennifer Markum, Executive
Director of Safe Haven Ministries.

@
GRANDVALLEY
Sponsored by: GVSU Women's Center, Center for Women in Transition, GVSU Women &amp; Gender Studies. and Eyes Wide Open Student Organization. STATE UNIVERSITY
For individuals requiring special occomodotions, please coll the Women's Center at 616.3312748 or email at womenctr@gvsuedu

WOMEN'S CENTER

�</text>
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                <text>Community centers</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="836659">
                <text>National Domestic Violence Awareness Month</text>
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                <text>Family violence</text>
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                    <text>Domestic Violence and
Sexual Assault Awareness Month

Wednesday,October 8, 2008
12:00- l DOpm
Grand Valley State University
Grand River Room, Kirkhof Center
Join the GVSU community in remembering M ichigan
women and their families that hove died as a result of
both wrthln our own community and
ocr= the state. Hee, their stories and remember their

domest ic v,olern:e.

Following the program. refreshments ond a hme for refleclton will be offered in the Womens Center. No parking
passes will be required lor this even! Please park in lat H
across from the Kirkhof Cen1er

Sponso"'d by, Gl'SUWrnoon', Ceo.le&lt; Ceo"" io, \',bmeo 1o 1rons&gt;hon. GVSU Womer,/!. Gendel
Stodie. and Eye, Wide Open Stooont O,gon1Zoli0r,
fa,

ro,,,«Lais «,qui,ing ,pe,:,ol ocromodolions. ploo.,e cell &gt;he Wome,,'s Cenle&lt; ct 616.331 2748

o, email a,

womenc""9v&gt;&lt;,~,

�</text>
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&gt;

OCTOBER IS
OMESTIC VIOLENCE

ARENESS MONTH
Join us for the unveiling of the Silent Witness Project.
View the silhouettes, with the names and stories of
West Michigan women killed by acts of domestic
violence. Please join us for this powerful ceremony
as we renew our commitment to stopping violence.

Silent Witness Unveiling
Tuesday, October 12th; Noon-1 pm
Cook DeWitt Plaza. - located by the clock tower
(In case of rain the event will be moved to the
Kirkhof Center Lobby)
Silent Witness Re-Shrouding
Friday, October 15th; 10am
Cook DeWitt Plaza - located by the clock
tower (In case of rain the event will be moved to
the Kirkhof Center Lobby)
Co-sponsors: Center for Women in Transition, GVSU
Women's Center, GVSU Women's Issues Volunteer Corps,
GVSU Women &amp; Gender Studies, and Eyes Wide Open
Peer Sexual Assault Education Group.
For directions and/or questions please call the GVSU
Women's Center at 616-331-2748 or check our website at
www.gvsu.edu/women_ctr. Community members may
park in Lot Hon campus, or obtain a free parking pass through
our public safety office located on the north-end of campus.

@
GRANo"\AfLEv
5TATElJNivERsrry
WOMEN'S CENTER

�</text>
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