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                  <text>Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs</text>
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                  <text>Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023</text>
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                  <text>Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183).&#13;
&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                  <text>&lt;a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Gilbert, Douglas R.</text>
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                <text>1964-11-21</text>
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                <text>Black and white photograph featuring the sign for Etta's Fashion Shop, located at the intersection of Salem St. and Ralph J. Palumbo Square in Boston, Massachusetts. Scanned from the negative.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Bob Short
Vietnam War
1 hour 11 minutes 15 seconds
(00:00:40) Early Life
-Born in July 1949 in Vandalia, Illinois
-Grew up in Mulberry Grove, Illinois
-About ten miles west from Vandalia
-Small, rural community of 750 people at the time
-Father was a truck driver, so he was gone frequently
-Mother was a housewife
-Graduated from high school in 1967
-Had always intended to serve in the military
-Inspired by his father who was a World War Two veteran
-Grew up believing that it was an honorable thing to do
(00:01:42) Applying for West Point
-He was granted a congressional appointment to get into West Point
-West Point is the prestigious Army academy in New York
-A month after graduating from high school he was a cadet at West Point
-All he had to do was follow the application process to get in
-Contacted his local congressman
-Got high school teachers and administrators to be his references
(00:02:40) Awareness of the Vietnam War
-He was aware of the Vietnam War
-He felt that he was naïve about the reality of war
-Grew up seeing the glorified portrayal of war in WWII movies
-Curious about how he would perform in combat
-News on the war in 1966 and 1967 was fairly objective and mostly positive
-Once he went to West Point he didn’t have access to much news
-No access to television and little access to newspapers
(00:03:39) Attending West Point
-He arrived at West Point in July 1967
-First two months there were referred to as “Beast Barracks”
-Constant physical training
-Constant verbal harassment
-Intense memorization of irrelevant data that you were tested on
-Example: memorize the menu for a certain day and then tell a trainer
-Essentially it was Army basic training, but intensified
-He expected it though
-Academic year started in the fall of 1967
-Completed three academic semesters there
-Fall 1967, Winter 1968 and Fall 1968
-Spent some time training at Fort Knox

�-Learned how to drive armored personnel carriers and tanks
-Learned how to operate their weapons systems
-Received artillery training while at West Point
-Actually went to the artillery range and fired guns
-At West Point he also received land navigation training
-He went to school six days a week
-Monday – Friday: full days
-Saturday: Half day with marching in the afternoon
-He carried twenty credit hours at West Point
-Got through the first year (also known as “Plebe Year”) well
(00:05:43) Leaving West Point
-At the end of his first year he was given a month of leave
-Mother died while he was on leave
-Finally succumbed to the cancer that she had been fighting
-He returned to West Point and began to lose focus
-Didn’t feel like he was learning relevant information
-This led to him feeling unfulfilled
-He began to consider the fact that he didn’t want to make a long term military commitment
-After graduating from West Point you had to serve for five years
-After the fall semester of 1968 he decided to leave West Point
-In February 1969 he officially left West Point
(00:07:15) Volunteering for the Draft
-After leaving West Point he decided that he wanted to go to a civilian college
-Didn’t have enough money at the time
-Decided that the GI Bill was the best way to have college paid for
-He went to his local draft board and told them that he was ready to be drafted
-Shortly after volunteering for the draft he was sent to St. Louis
-Got sworn in at the induction center there
(00:07:52) Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri
-After being sworn in at St. Louis he was sent to Fort Leonard Wood for basic training
-At Fort Leonard Wood he ran into an old high school friend who worked in processing
-Friend found out that he had spent a year and a half at West Point
-This led to Bob not having to complete basic training or advanced infantry training
-As a result he received no formal preparation prior to going to Vietnam
-He feels that the training he received at West Point was substantial enough though
(00:09:42) Deployment to and Arrival in Vietnam
-He went on leave and after leave was deployed to Vietnam
-He was first flown to the replacement depot in Oakland, California
-From Oakland he boarded a chartered flight and flew to Vietnam
-En route stopped at Hawaii and Guam to be refueled
-Landed at Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Vietnam
-First impression of Vietnam was that it was hot
-Felt anxious upon leaving the plane
-He was sent to the replacement center at Long Binh
-Stayed there for a few days waiting for his assignment to a unit
-At Long Binh he met and befriended a soldier

�-They were both assigned to guard the paymaster building (similar to bank)
-Given an M14 rifle and a clip of ammunition
-Felt like the Old West
-After that he was assigned to the same company, but different platoon, as his new friend
-Within four or five weeks that friend was killed in action
-He arrived in Vietnam on May 26, 1969
(00:11:16) Unit Assignment and Going to Chu Lai
-He was assigned to Charlie Company of the 1st Battalion of the 46th Infantry
-Originally part of the 198th Light Infantry Brigade
-Component of the Americal Division (23rd Infantry Division)
-In July they were reshuffled into the 196th Light Infantry Brigade
-His unit was operating out of Quang Nam Province in South Vietnam
-Part of I Corps (there were 4 “corps” in Vietnam: military operating areas)
-Operating north of the city of Chu Lai
-Area was described as mountainous and a “free fire zone”
-This means that it was a combat zone and heavily depopulated
-From Long Binh he flew up on a military aircraft to Chu Lai
-After landing he was bussed to the Americal Division Combat Center
-There he received refresher training and given a chance to get adjusted
-After being processed at the Combat Center he was taken by truck to the battalion area
-Also located in Chu Lai
-Stayed there for a day or two
-From there he was flown to his unit’s firebase on a Huey helicopter
-Remembers that it was a tense flight
-Recalls how hostile and inhospitable the terrain looked
-He landed at the firebase and stayed there for about a day
(00:13:57) Introduction to Charlie Company
-The next day he rode on the resupply helicopter to join Charlie Company in the field
-The other soldiers were wary of him at first because he was the “new guy”
-Company Field 1st Sergeant introduced him to the company commander
-Sergeant informed the commander that Bob had West Point training
-Impressed the company commander and made his acceptance easier
-After being introduced to the commander he was assigned to a platoon, then a squad
-Operating in thick jungles and a hilled/mountainous area
-He arrived at dusk and wound up staying the night in the field
-He was put on guard duty his first night there
-It was so dark that he couldn’t see his hand in front of his face
-They were dug in in foxholes
-Noise discipline was heavily enforced
-At the time Charlie Company was operating as a single unit
-Company strength was about sixty to eighty men
-Rarely saw other soldiers in his company though because they were so spread out
(00:17:37) Introduction to the Field
-The next day was uneventful and spent hiking over the hills
-Even with his training he had to get used to carrying equipment and walking all day
-They walked both on, and off the trails

�-Trails allowed for faster movement, but more dangerous because of booby traps
-Cutting through the jungle was more arduous, but much safer
-He mainly observed what other soldiers were doing so as to learn how to survive
-He grew up hunting and camping so his adjustment didn’t take as long
-His squad leader was understanding and gave him time to get used to Vietnam
-In a short time he was put on “point” (leading the squad through the jungle)
(00:20:50) First Contact
-His first contact with the enemy was within his first week of being in country
-His unit was moving up a hill when a soldier behind them fired his grenade launcher
-The grenadier alerted them to enemy contacts further up the hill
-His squad then proceeded to find cover and open fire
-They didn’t receive any enemy fire, so they moved up the hill
-They didn’t find any enemy soldiers, but they did find Vietnamese equipment
(00:21:50) Working off Landing Zone Professional
-His unit worked off of a base camp known as Landing Zone (LZ) Professional
-One company would stay at the LZ providing security while the other three were in the field
-Rotation schedule was three weeks in the field and one week at the LZ
-Enemy activity had decreased shortly before his arrival
-North Vietnamese had hit all the companies in mid May prior to his arrival
-His squad (of about ten to twelve men) lost six soldiers
-He was a replacement
(00:23:50) Contact with the Enemy
-Whenever they did make contact with the enemy it was sporadic
-Patrols were always tense because there was no consistency in making contact
-Some days they ran into enemy soldiers, other days they didn’t
-Combatants that they ran into were mostly soldiers from the North Vietnamese Army
-Very few Viet Cong (insurgent) forces operating in their area
-His unit’s job was to stop NVA forces coming into South Vietnam via the Ho Chi Minh Trail
(00:24:35) Conditions at Night
-At night his unit would move to the top of a hill and make camp
-Establish a perimeter of defense and spread out
-You would pair up with another soldier and make tents out your ponchos
-The squad would set up landmines and take rotating guard duty
-They would split into platoons at night, but the other platoons stayed close to provide security
-North Vietnamese forces would try to assault their camps at night
-Remembers one instance where they heard the NVA creeping up on them
-Started throwing grenades at the Vietnamese
-Avoided using rifles so as not to give away their position
-Managed to successfully neutralize the threat
-The NVA never successfully broke through their lines in the field
-LZ Professional was a bigger target which made staying there more dangerous
-Remembers one instance where the NVA got through the outermost defenses
-In the morning he found a wounded enemy soldier just outside his bunker
(00:27:49) The Men He Served With
-Served with a diverse group of men
-Because of the draft there were men in his unit from a myriad of backgrounds

�-Some of the men in his unit had enlisted
-Most of the soldiers in the company were young
-Only about eighteen or nineteen years old
-Twenty two year olds were considered “old guys”
-Very few of the men in his company planned on being career soldiers
-Most men dealt with the situation well and followed orders
-All in all, they were a dependable group of men
(00:28:46) Leadership
-His squad leader had already been in Vietnam for over half a year when Bob arrived
-After his squad leader left, Bob was promoted to the position of squad leader
-At the time of his promotion he was only an E4 (corporal, or specialist)
-Next rank above private, and below a sergeant
-Most of the sergeants in his company didn’t have any combat experience
-As a result they were placed in positions where they could learn how to lead
-Original company commander he didn’t know much about
-Second company commander was too gung ho and took unnecessary risks
-Third company commander was an adept and respectable leader
-His platoon leader was also adept at being a leader
(00:31:08) Overview of His Time in Vietnam
-Spent a year and a half all toll in Vietnam
-Standard full year in Vietnam plus the time he was supposed to have spent in training
-Spent his first year as an infantryman
-After being in the infantry for a year he requested to be transferred to a different position
(00:31:53) Overview of His Time as an Infantryman
-During his time with the infantry the daily and monthly pattern stayed the same
-Worked on and off of LZ Professional
-For a short time his company worked off of Firebase Maryann in the west
-After that returned to operating out of LZ Professional
(00:32:45) Casualties
-In his unit five men were killed in action
-The men in his unit mostly sustained minor injuries though
-Shrapnel wounds and similar injuries; burns, cuts, general abrasions
-A few men were severely wounded
(00:33:08) Encounters with the North Vietnamese
-Whenever they encountered the NVA it was in small groups
-Never ran into large groups of enemy soldiers
-At the time it seemed like the NVA was laying low and regrouping
(00:33:25) Morale, Downtime and Conditions
-Overall morale was pretty good in his unit
-Everyone stuck together and took care of one another
-Generally just complained about the situation, but never did more than that
-Credits the cohesion of his squad to having strong leaders
-Didn’t spend a lot of downtime back at LZ Professional
-After about three quarters of the year he was given an R&amp;R pass
-Went to Australia to vacation there
-His company went on “stand down” a couple times (chance to relax for a couple days)

�-C Company would get rotated to the base at Chu Lai
-Allowed to unwind, drink beer and eat steaks (and other good food)
-The company was resupplied about once a week when they were in the field
-Lived off of C Rations when they were in the field
-Had to drink water from local water sources
-When they were in the mountain water was flown in in rubber containers
-This made the water taste like rubber
-Weather was always either really dry, or really wet
-During monsoon it rained incessantly
-Skin was either dried and cracked, or wet and pruned
-Led to serious skin infections developing requiring medevac
(00:37:10) Race Relations
-Had people of different races and different regional backgrounds serving in his company
-He noticed racial tension more on the base camps than in the field
-In the field, units couldn’t afford to have soldiers divided by racism
-He feels that combat broke down the racial barriers that existed outside of war
-At base camps troops would self-segregate
-White soldiers would go with white soldiers, black soldiers with black soldiers
-Soldiers who drank beer/alcohol would separate themselves from soldiers who did drugs
(00:38:38) Substance Use and Abuse
-He wasn’t aware of soldiers using drugs in the field
-Feels that most soldiers had enough sense not to because it put other lives in danger
-If a soldier was doing drugs in the field other soldiers would make him stop immediately
(00:39:04) Contact with Vietnamese Civilians
-In the firebases or on landing zones they had very little contact with Vietnamese civilians
-Even when he was in Chu Lai there was very limited contact with the Vietnamese workers
-Army required soldiers to turn in their weapons when they were in civilian areas
-Wanted to prevent accidents or war crimes from being committed
(00:39:50) Artillery and Air Support
-Commonly called in artillery or air strikes while they were in the field
-Remembers one time he and another soldier were on the top of a hill
-They saw about a company size force of North Vietnamese moving below them
-Proceeded to call in artillery fire on the NVA forces
-One of the few times he felt sorry for the North Vietnamese
-He could see them getting blown to pieces, carrying wounded friends
(00:40:45) Attitude towards the North Vietnamese
-He, and the other soldiers, had a lot of respect for the North Vietnamese
-Felt that they were tough and well trained soldiers
-To an extent they even feared the NVA
-NVA knew the terrain better and had been fighting foreign soldiers for twenty years
(00:41:12) Progress of the War
-By late 1969, early 1970 he and the other soldiers knew that the war wasn’t going well for U.S.
-No one cared if they “won” they just wanted to survive the deployment and go home
-Towards the end of his deployment he knew that U.S. forces were being withdrawn
(00:41:42) Contact with Family
-While he was in Vietnam he had pretty limited contact with his family

�-The primary form of communication was “old fashioned” mail
-He would receive care packages from friends and family in the U.S.
-He received and sent letters to his father
-He had a favorite aunt who would send care packages and letters in lieu of his mother
-Mother had died while he was attending West Point
-His aunt had kept all the letters that he had sent her
-Care packages that he and other soldiers received for Christmas 1969 was memorable
-Someone had kept the packages at LZ Professional
-Did so, so that the soldiers would have something to open Christmas Day
-Everyone had received at least one fruitcake
-Mostly received canned goods and baked goods
(00:43:40) Transfer to Combat Center in Chu Lai
-For the last six months of his tour he was at the Combat Center in Chu Lai
-Dealt with processing new troops before being sent to their units and assignments
-While there he was promoted to the rank of E5 (sergeant) and worked with a 1st lieutenant
-His task was to help build a course on Vietnamese customs and relations
-The idea was that a happy native populace was a safe and helpful one
-Received mixed reviews from the soldiers
-Command also wanted to make sure that the United States was being represented well
-Wanted to humanize the Vietnamese to prevent incidents like the My Lai Massacre
-He had more contact with Vietnamese civilians when he was permanently stationed at Chu Lai
-On occasion Chu Lai took rocket and/or mortar fire
-Still safer than being in the field
-Early one morning remembers rockets landing immediately behind his barracks
-Another day remembers a mortar attack happen while he was teaching soldiers
-He saw a lot of troops at Chu Lai that were busy during the day, but not at night
-Resulted in heavier drug and alcohol use at night
-Race relations were much more strained
(00:48:18) Attempting to Transfer to C Company
-While he was at Chu Lai Charlie Company got into some pretty heavy fighting
-Lost a few people
-He requested a transfer back to the field to rejoin C Company
-Felt that it was the right thing to do
-Wanted to see if he knew anyone who had been hurt, or killed in the fighting
-Ultimately his lieutenant at the Combat Center would not approve the transfer
-At the time felt guilty about not going, but it was ultimately for the best
(00:48:47) Race Riot at Chu Lai
-While he was at Chu Lai he witnessed a race riot break out
-He was on guard duty when he saw a white sergeant and black sergeant get into a fight
-This initial fighting was not race related
-Other soldiers perceived it to be a racially fueled fight and got involved
-Hundreds of soldiers from clubs and barracks jumped in to fight
-He was almost dragged out of his guard post
-Managed to scare off the assailant with his M16 rifle
-A black captain was called in to break up the riot
-Soldiers finally listened and went back to their quarters

�-Most of the trouble with race on the base came from the newly arrived soldiers
-Coupled with soldiers who had too much time on their hands it was a volatile combo
(00:51:50) Awareness of Black Markets or Corruption
-While he was in the rear he never saw any evidence of black markets or corruption
-Heard stories from other soldiers about the existence of such things though
(00:52:20) Funny Incidents
-There were funny things that happened in the field in Vietnam
-Tries to look back on the good times breaking up the bad times
-Remembers one night where they set up a perimeter
-They had just seen intense fighting with the NVA
-Everyone was on edge waiting to be attacked
-In the middle of the night they heard a bloodcurdling scream from within their camp
-Everyone went on alert and thought someone had been bayoneted
-Turns out that a new guy had found a leech on his body
-This led to having to abandon their position and find a new place to camp for the night
-Wound up staying up the whole night and being thoroughly annoyed
-Looks back on the incident and laughs at the absurdity of it
(00:54:56) Walking Point
-While he was in the field he walked point quite frequently
-Over time he became more confident in his tracking and scouting abilities
-Led to a sense of invincibility which he later realized was incredibly dangerous
-He had hunted in his youth, so the experience there had helped him in walking point
-Fortunately he didn’t run into much in the way of booby traps
-He does remember one time where he and another soldier stumbled onto a NVA squad
-He and the other soldier killed most of them
-Later the day after that the remnants were able to ambush his squad
-While he walked point he didn’t find many tunnels or “spider holes” (one man hideouts)
-He did find a NVA bunker once and a soldier was sent in to search it
-Wound up finding a one hundred pound bag of rice from Houston, Texas
(00:58:14) Working with Vietnamese Soldiers
-In his company there were Vietnamese scouts
-He and another soldier were sent to Chu Lai to pick up a couple Vietnamese scouts once
-These men had been part of the Viet Cong
-He spent a couple days getting to know his platoon’s scout
-Make sure he was trustworthy and a valuable asset
-He was able to converse with him in both French and English
-Initially his platoon didn’t trust the scout at all
-Over time began to find that he was trustworthy
-Most men even began to see him as a friend and as a comrade
-He never knew what happened to their scout after the war
-The other scout that his company picked up turned out to be extremely loyal
-One of the men in the company tripped a booby trap
-Scout jumped out to knock the grenade away from the American soldier
-Unfortunately the American was killed
-Scout lost a hand and sustained shrapnel wounds

�(01:01:25) Leaving Vietnam and Coming Home
-He left Vietnam on Thanksgiving 1970
-By that time he was ready to get out of the country
-From Chu Lai he flew down to Cam Ranh Bay
-He flew out of Cam Ranh Bay on another chartered flight to Japan and from there to Seattle
-Flight arrived in the middle of the night
-It was a way for veterans to avoid being harassed by protestors
-At Fort Lewis, Washington he got discharged from the Army
-Remembers sitting in the Seattle airport waiting for a flight
-Relaxing with his Army jacket unbuttoned
-Young MP (military police) came up to him and told him to button up his jacket
-Bob was surprised by this, but understood the young soldier was doing his job
(01:04:01) Life after the War
-After returning home he attended college at Illinois State
-He had applied and been accepted while he was still in Vietnam
-Prior to college he was able to go home, enjoy Christmas 1970 and decompress
-Started at Illinois State in January 1971
-First semester was a little difficult
-He had made sure to take easy classes while he was still readjusting
-He felt very alienated being in college
-Didn’t fit in with the largely naïve and young students
-While in college he wound up finding housing with other veterans
-Lived in a big rented house together
-Able to talk about their experiences with each other and be with likeminded people
-Over the years he internalized a lot of issues from his experiences in Vietnam
-He wound up having enough GI Bill money to get his master’s degree from Illinois State
-Field of study was employee health and safety
-First got a job in the northwest working for Alcoa Aluminum manufacturing plants
-Worked as a safety and training supervisor
-From the northwest he transferred to Indiana and from Indiana he was sent to Michigan
-Worked for the Upjohn Company (made Rogaine) in Kalamazoo in 1979
(01:07:20) Buddy to Buddy Veterans’ Program
-He is now involved in the Buddy to Buddy Volunteer Veteran Program
-Non-profit group based out of the University of Michigan
-Use grant money from various sources to aid veterans
-They provide support and outreach assistance to post September 11th servicemen
-The main focus of the program is for veterans to be helping veterans
-He finds that it is fulfilling to work with this new generation of veterans
-He is the coordinator for the western portion of Michigan
-Program works in conjunction with the Army National Guard
-Volunteers spend time at armories getting to know veterans
-Figuring out what they need help with: employment, finances, family, etc.
-From there help them access available public and private resources
-He has found that veteran unemployment is improving, but the unemployment rate is still high
-Tends to lead to family issues, or substance abuse
-The Army now supplies veterans with the information to access resources

�-Most veterans, understandably, are more focused on just getting home though
-About sixty percent of the volunteers are Vietnam veterans
-They see it as a chance to provide new veterans with the things they were denied

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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Bob Short was born in 1949 in Vandalia, Illinois. He grew up in the small town of Mulberry Grove, Illinois and graduated from high school there in 1967. Upon graduating high school he attended the West Point military academy in New York. He attended there for three academic semesters until he decided that it was time to leave. In February 1969 he formally left West Point. After leaving the academy he volunteered for the draft and was soon thereafter sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. He was able to skip training because of his West Point experience and by May 26, 1969 he was in Vietnam. He was assigned to Charlie Company of the 1st Battalion of the 46th Infantry part of the Americal (23rd Infantry) Division. His unit operated off of Landing Zone Professional and around the area of Chu Lai. Over the course of a year and a half he would serve in a variety of roles, from walking point to working in the Combat Center at Chu Lai developing a Vietnamese relations course. In November 1970 he left Vietnam and by January 1971 he was attending college at Illinois State. He would go on to get his master's degree in employee health and safety, and working all over America finally settling down in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He is now a prominent member of the Buddy to Buddy Volunteer Veteran Program based out of the University of Michigan helping veterans in the post-9/11 era.</text>
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Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
Henry Shuster Jr.
Length of Interview (00:30:03)
Background (00:00:00)
Born in Yukon, Florida on the Jacksonville Naval Air Station
Father was in the Navy then worked for the Chrysler Corp.
Brother who worked for GM
Sister is a school teacher
Drafted out of college (00:01:15)
•

Thought that if he enlisted he could go into Officer Candidate School

•

Was married at the time with two children, needed the money

Chose to enlist in the Army and went to Officer Candidate School
Was 22 at the time
Training (00:02:04)
Went into basic training for eight weeks
Then eight weeks of AIT (Advanced Individual Training)
Went to Officer’s Candidate School in Fort Benning, Georgia (00:02:44)
•

Learned tactics, field situations, how to command soldiers

•

There for six months

•

Graduated as a 1st Lieutenant; given 30 days leave

After graduating, went to complete Jungle Training in Panama (00:03:38)
•

Put near the Panama Canal in the middle of the jungle

•

Learned to survive in the jungle; how to live on your own

�•

Escape and Invasion Course: done in the middle of the night, dropped off at an unknown
location from which you must find your way back to camp; had to avoid capture

•

Graduated from Jungle school

Sent to a unit (00:04:54)
It was a very large change between civilian life and the Army life (00:05:10)
His family could go with him when he was assigned to a unit; lived on a base
War Time (00:06:19)
Sent to Vietnam, landed in Saigon
Flew to Ten In in a fixed-wing airplane
Put into a helicopter and flown to a fire base; became a part of the 1st Air Cavalry Division
•

Was a part of the infantry that gets around in helicopters

Stationed outside of Ten In, between Saigon and Cambodian Border (00:07:28)
•

Job was to prevent enemy soldiers from entering Saigon

Describes the geography of Vietnam and the tactics used during the war (00:07:54)
•

The North Vietnamese would use Cambodia as a way to enter Vietnam

Wasn’t happy when going to Vietnam, had to leave his family; felt afraid, as well (00:09:25)
In WWII, Shuster’s Cavalry, the 1st Cavalry, rode on horseback, but in Vietnam they used
helicopters instead (00:10:06)
The further you get into Vietnam, the more scared you get (00:10:41)
Belonged to a battalion, which includes two or three companies, which then includes two or
three platoons; 20 guys in a platoon (00:11:18)
•

About one hundred in the company and twenty men in his platoon under his charge

Had to take care of each other, so you were friends with everyone in your platoon (00:12:00)
•

Used to get Jungle Rot or ringorm because of Vietnam’s climate; take care of each other
medically

•

Have to back everybody up in firefights

�•

After the war, everyone went their own way; never saw them again

The day Shuster left, people in his platoon were wounded; he was worried his Sergeant had
died, but the man actually had been in the Army Hospital for three years (00:13:15)
Kept in touch with his family through letters; his wife would write freedom in the corner as a
stamp, also used tape recorders (00:14:00)
Always on-duty in War: Search and Destroy missions (00:14:45)
•

Describes a Search and Destroy Mission

•

During the night, would stop the enemy from crossing through the Cambodian border
into Vietnam

•

In the field for 40 days in the jungle; every five or six days, supplies dropped by
helicopters (00:15:39)

•

Had very little free-time; going back to the fire base for three or four days could be
considered free-time

•

At night, had to guard the base

The worst thing that Shuster could imagine is dying in Vietnam after being there for a year
(00:17:19)
•

“Short-timer’s Calendar”: only stay in Vietnam for 365 days in which soldiers would
compare how many days they have left, knew the exact date you would leave

Went into Vietnam August of ’69 and got out August ’70; wasn’t in Vietnam when the War
ended (00:18:20)
•

In 1975 (when the War ended), was working for Chrysler

Going Home (00:18:40)
Went home by jet
In the Vietnam War, they only stayed for one year, unlike Iraq where soldiers can be sent back
(00:18:56)
•

Always working with different people

Didn’t have a hard time re-adjusting back to civilian life, didn’t think of the War (00:20:15)
Knows a few people who are Vietnam Vets

�The War made him grow-up; has respect for his country and the way we live (00:21:45)
•

Feel that you are a part of your country, pride; respect for the life we live; Vietnam had
terrible living conditions

•

They’d always been at war

Most people in Vietnam lived in grass huts and mud; rains all the time, constantly wet
(00:23:22)
Didn’t speak with many civilians, was in a “free-fire zone” (00:24:15)
•

Only interaction was with “Coke” girls, sold real Coca-Cola

Given MPC’s in order to pay for everything, military money (00:26:08)
No positive times, weather was terrible; no housing, a lot of swamps
Landed in San Francisco when arriving from Vietnam (00:27:40)
•

On the base for three or four days for examination; checked for disease

•

Shuster’s family was living in Detroit, Michigan, flew back

•

Was given two balloons for his kids; had a very happy reunion, it’s what he remembers
most

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview Transcript
Harold Sibley
World War II
Interviewer: Frank Boring

(1:22:17)
Let‟s begin with your name and where and when you were born? (02:59)
My name is Harold W. Sibley. I was born in Grand Lake, Michigan, just outside of Flint, Michigan, a
little town, in 1921.
What was your early schooling like?
Well my first day they took me to kindergarten. Set me in that room in the middle of the room, and I
started looking around and I didn’t know any of those kids there. I got up and walked out and went
home. Then I waited until I knew that school was going to be out before I went home, but they had
already called my parents and found out that I had taken off. But, I was taken back the next day and they
made sure that I never did anything like that again.
So how about high school? I understand that was a little bit more enjoyable experience?
Yes, we had 4 years of high school there and I went out for both basketball and football and I ended up
as captain of the basketball team my last 2 years and I was co-captain of the football team my last year.
So, physical activities in a way came natural to you. You felt like....
They did, they did.
That‟s great. Now you got out of high school, I believe in 1939. (04:18)
Yup.
So what did you did then. You had to go to work. This was not exactly a prosperous time in
America.
Oh no, no. They were still recovering from the Depression. But, I managed to mow lawns for people
that had the money. Of course they didn’t pay much, maybe $ .25 for a big lawn or something like that,
but it was still money. And, anything that I could do to earn a buck or dollar I did. Until, well in high
school, I had that ice cream parlor job, but then my dad started let him help him in the cemetery, even
digging graves. Today it is all done by automation.

�Right, right. Which is real physical work. I mean, your muscles are aching when you dig like
that.
But I learned to drive. Because, I had a truck there to haul stuff around in and that is how a learned to
drive, really, at 12 years of age.
But soon there was a better job opportunity.
Oh yeah, oh yeah. When I was old enough to get into the plant at GM. And they were starting to
recover somewhat.
I realize that you were very young at this time, but were there any rumblings at all of what was
going on in Europe. At this time when you were at GM.
Oh yeah, we knew that England was getting involved.
Because you were approaching 18. You were approaching the time that something might have to
happen to you.
Well I graduated at 17. But I knew that as soon as Pearl Harbor was hit that my age group was going to
get involved.
Well tell me about Pearl Harbor. (06:15)
I was at Betty’s house that day, and there were 2 other guys there for her sisters, when it came over the
radio that Pearl Harbor was attacked.
What was your reaction?
Oh boy! This is the start of it now.
So you figured out that you were going to be someway or another involved.
Yup, and I thought that well maybe if I could fly I would like that better, but that didn’t work out, so.
Well what you actually do... You tried to get into the Navy Air Corps.
Well when I tried to get into the corps? Oh no, I failed because of my eyes.
Right, but I mean you tried to get into the Navy Air Corps?
Oh yes, yes.

�Yeah. So basically it was because of your eyes that you not able to. And, so what happened after
that?
Well I went back to work at GM.
And then soon a notice came in the mail, or ... how did you find out?
Well there was quite a span in between because I dated a lot with her and we got acquainted all of the
time. But, I knew I was going to get drafted because of my age, and actually I wasn’t married. But, by
the time I went into the service I was. Because I was inducted on July 29 and on the 1st of August we
were married, and on the 8th of August was my birthday. (07:41)
So once you were inducted into the military, what was the next step? What did you have to do?
Did you have to report somewhere?
We went over to the army base over in Michigan here. What is the name of that?
Fort Custer?
Yeah. One week there. Got rid of my civilian clothes and got on army clothes, and...
Well lets back up a little bit. You arrived at Fort Custer in a bus, or a train?
On a train.
Okay, and you were with a bunch of other draftees.
Well yes.
So you‟re off the train and you are in civilian clothes. What do you see? What was Fort Custer
like when you first got there?
Well, I had been to some CC camps before, which had a similarity to this. And it didn’t shock me to
much with what I saw. But anyway...
But there was activity going on. There were people marching, and there was a flag pole ...
Yup, yup.
So they brought you in.
Yes they brought us in.
Okay, and where did you go?

�Well they put us in a group.
Okay.
Took a picture.
Okay.
And then gave us living quarters.
Okay. These are barracks?
Yeah.
Okay.
And then told us what we could expect about what we had to do. We might have to come and police the
grounds or something. Or we might have to go get our new clothes ready and get rid of the old clothes.
So there was something like that happening all of the time. (09:11)
So, you arrived to get your new military clothes and of course they had a tailor there from New
York, and he is making sure that your arm length, and your leg length and your boots are being
measured.
I never saw one.
What did they do?
Well they give me stuff that fit me.
They basically took a look at you and said what are you‟re a 30 this or a 30 something and throw
some pants at you.
Yup, yup.
So, basic training there, you said.... this was not basic training per se.
Not really, but you could have pulled KP duty or something like that, too, or table waiter. But the day
that I was supposed to do that, my brother-in-law brought Betty up to see me, and they excused me.
Ahhhhhh.. So this is not the actual basic training. This was more of a staging area.
Oh yeah, there was not big deal there.

�So where did you go next?
Uh, they put us on a train, and I wasn’t sure where we were going, and none did. We weren’t told where
we were going at first. But, finally the second or third day out, I says - Ray was with me, my friend - I
says, we are going kind of southwest. Where do you think that we are going and he said, “I don’t
know”. So anyway we ended up in Texas.
Okay. Now let‟s backtrack. Ray was actually somebody you met while you were at GM.
No, no. I met him at our first camp there.
Okay, but wasn‟t he working at GM or something?
No, he worked at a bank in Flint.
Oh. Okay, okay, I got confused. Okay, so anyway you both met at camp and you kind of became
buddies because you were from the Michigan area and all of that.
Sure did.
So you arrived in Texas. And what was that like when you got off of the train there? Was it
bigger than Camp Custer, or...? (11:09)
Well it was in the middle of the night. It was hotter than blazes and we probably had to march over a
mile and a half to get to the barracks where we were going to be. Of course we were all wringing wet by
that time.
Yeah, sure.
And you couldn’t try to take a shower because there was no hot water left. But anyway, ah, we finally
got settled into our barracks and they hauled us all out and they gave us a speech about what we were
going to be involved in. It wasn’t too bad really.
So, what the routine like? The typical day? You get up around 10 o‟clock in the morning, have
some coffee, kind of hang around for awhile smoking cigarettes?
No, no. Reveille was about 6 o’clock. And you’d better get up. And you might be a table waiter or KP.
I never got caught very often on that. A couple of times maybe, but that was it.
So then it was calisthenics, marching, left, right, left right. (12:17)
Learning how to right, how to stroll, how to do this.
What was your drill sergeant like? Was he....?

�He was a decent guy, he really was. He really was.
Because, you know the usually, the guy screaming in your face, you‟re a maggot, you‟re this and
that.
Okay, I’ve seen some of those, too. Never under them, but I ended up having to do that too for my own
platoon, but.....
We will get into the later. That is an interesting sidetrack there. So, basic training though, you‟re
going through all- the people that were in basic with you, were they from all over the country,
or...?
They were, yup.
Okay. So this is your first real experience with people that were not from Flint or Michigan or
......
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Was there a sense of cameraderie amongst your group, you are all in this together; you have a
common enemy to fight? Or were you just too young for this?
There were maybe 6 of us from Michigan.
Okay. Kind of huddled together and ate together?
Yeah, yeah. Took some pictures together and we even had a little Mexican guy that we fell in love with.
But, we took him into town one evening, when we had some free time and went rolling skating. He had
never been on skates. So you can imagine how that..... (13:38)
Probably the way that I would be on roller skates - all over the place.
We had a lot of fun with him, but...
Now, during this period of time, you happened to come upon a notice that was on the bulletin
board. And I want you to .....
This was pretty close to the end of our training time that I saw that. And I got a hold of Ray and I says
“Come on over and read that”.
And what did it say.
Looking for several good young healthy men, good physiques. Strenuous work to be done. Hard work
all of the time and you also have to jump out of an airplane. But then it pays $50 extra a month. That’s

�what got me there, because that was another extra $50 that I could send home. I was only getting $10
dollars a month, because I had an allotment to Betty. But that was all I needed to live on, really in basic
training.
Well they fed you, they clothed you, all of that stuff.
Oh yeah.
Sure, sure. So what did Ray have to say about this?
He said, “Well it might be a good idea.” He was engaged too, by the way. But he never lived to get
married.
Yup. So, you guys decided that you were going to take up this opportunity. So, what did you do.
How did you .....?
Well they accepted 28 of us.
Okay.
Then were there two officers came from the special forces and each one was individually interviewed for
about 2 hours. Wanted to know all about you. Like we are doing here now. And after that, then there a
lot of physical fitness things you had to do and qualify in it, or they said no. But there were 28 of us
accepted.
Let me just..... This is going to sound like a stupid question. I imagine this was very strenuous
even for a 21 year old kid. They really put you through the paces.
Oh, yes. But we had been ... There were several good hills around Camp Alders, Texas where we had
basic training, so I knew what climbing a mountain was.
Yeah, and plus you had from basketball days, and from football days, your body at 21 was in good
shape. But still, even for you this was a strenuous test?
Oh yeah, it was.
Okay. So how did you find out that you got this appointment?
Well, after they interviewed everybody. They called us all together and told us that you have all been
accepted - the 28 - and you will be coming to our base (but they never told us where it was) for some
more hard physical training. (16:18)
That must have been interesting sitting in the audience and listening to it - hard, I thought we just
went through really hard. You mean it gets worse?

�But anyway, the training group that we went with were sent to the Pacific at the end of the basic. They
left us there for 2 weeks before they shipped us out.
Now, had you graduated from basic yet.
Oh yeah.
Okay, alright. So you had graduated from that.
Oh, yup, yup. But, we were just left there and we weren’t hardly doing anything. Going off for exercise
I guess for about 2 weeks. And, finally they said, “Well put your stuff together, you are going to be on
your way.” And of course they never told us where we were going. So, we had a First Lieutenant from
there that put us on the train and he was going with us. But he had lived in a town in Nebraska, I think it
was. And we got about..... Well anyway we started out and finally after about 2-3 days, I says, “Ray, I
thought that we would be going to Fort Benning in Georgia for jump training. We’re not going south.
We are going northwest.” And he says, “Well I guess you’re right.” But anyway, he had the train pulled
off to a site in his home town there. And he says, “My mother is going to be at a hotel here and she
wants to buy dinner for you guys.”
Wow!
Boy, we thought that was pretty darn nice, because we were eating out of cans.
Yeah, this was the First Lieutenant‟s mother.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Oh wow! So she did.
She did.
Wow!
We got back on the train and took off again. Ended up in Helena, Montana.
And what happened in Helena, Montana?
Well the train was able to get real close to the base. So, we had to march into camp and as we marched
in. They kept calling off names and they did it alphabetically because there was 3 regiments. So first
regiment got so many of these guys. Second regiment got so many. Third regiment got so many and
mine being S, I was in the third regiment, and my buddy Ray was also, because he was a W. He was in
the company next to me.

�Now, I thought that you went to Camp Harrison first, or did I get it reversed.
No. We did go to Harrison. That was the first camp we went to. And that was the home base, too. And
that was the ...
Okay, that was when you first heard the name...
First special service force. Yup, yup. And we didn’t know what those Canadians were doing there,
either. (19:00)
So you actually met the Canadians at that time?
Yeah, some of them had the ride there, too.
So, this was all in Texas at Camp Harrison when the Canadians were gathered and you were
gathered, or was that in Montana?
That’s Montana.
Oh, okay. So now we are in Montana. Canadians have come aboard. So, did you train separately
from them, or did you train with them?
Yup. Some of their march calls we adopted and some of ours they adopted. So, we had fun doing it
really, so.
Were there also French Canadians amongst this group?
Yup, Yup, could speak French.
Now, I read this, and I don‟t know if this applied to you, but I read this about the First Special
Force - that some of the Canadians wore the kilts. You know, like the Scottish kilts?
You didn’t see that very often.
Okay, alright.
Especially in the winter time.
So they were wearing pants, the regular pants, just like very one else?
Yes, yes.

�Okay. So, what was the training in Montana like? I mean, you had gone through basic training.
You had gone through this kind of test to become one of this group. What was Montana training
like?
Rough. The obstacle course was more than twice as long as the one we used in basic training. And you
had to do the whole thing. We had mountain climbing. Some mornings they would get us up and there
a mountain just out side of camp, and we had to go run up that mountain before we could go to
breakfast. And, we had hand to hand combat, right on the ground, too, part of the time, by this - he was
an Irishman really, but he was the one that I told you was an instructor over in Japan.
So he had actually learned martial arts in Japan and adapting those techniques of Judo or Karate
to your training. So you are flipping people, and...
Well yeah, but if you want to shut a guy up that is talking too much, you just do that to his throat and he
doesn’t talk anymore for a while, which I had to do to a couple to Germans one time.
Now in Montana, what was the base like? Did you have actual wooden structure barracks? Were
you in tents or....? (21:28)
We had tar paper huts.
Okay, tar paper huts. And what about the mess tent?
Well that was a regular building. This was an old base for - not the regular army, but the...
National Guard?
National Guard.
Okay. So this was a training base for the National Guard.
But then they had to make a tower for drying the parachutes, too. And a place to hang them.
Now, what was the food like? Was it a chow line kind of buffet?
No, actually we could make it ourselves, if we wanted to.
Really! Wow!
Especially on the weekend.
Yeah.

�But, during the week, they usually had a regular meal. But, if you wanted to go in and have ham and
eggs or bacon and eggs, whatever, you could do it yourself, on Sundays.
But during the week, you‟re talking about trays going down the line. Slop on potatoes, slop on
something, slop on something. But the food wasn‟t too bad you say.
Well, where I saw that was when we were at that Bradford Naval base, for amphibious training. We had
to use the Navy for food. The first day that I went through there, I had a tray and walking along and all
of a sudden I got a great big pile of beans on my plate. I said, “I don’t eat those things.” “Well if you’re
here you are going to eat them.” But a.....
So, the training in Montana. That included what? You mentioned parachute. This was the first
time you had ever gotten involved in parachutes? (23:00)
Yeah. They had the mockups for us to jump out of like you are supposed to jump out of the plane.
Right. And there is stages, right? You start for a certain height and then another height and
another height.. Now I have paratroopers that made it through and they talked about guys that
when they finally got way up high, they just couldn‟t to it.
Well at Benning they had towers, but they would take you up high and then drop you at Fort Benning.
Of course, we didn’t have ....
You didn‟t have that in Montana.
No, no.
So, this is the real basic, basic stuff. Okay. Was there any point at this period, where you thought,
“Oh my gosh, what have I gotten myself into.”
No not really.
So, this was exciting stuff, this is .....
We had to go out on night marches too, and use a compass to find our way back and how to do that, and
some nights you might not have any sleep. You work all day and go out all night.
But you are 21 years old and you can do that sort of thing, especially if you are physically fit.
And we were taught demolitions. That was another thing that we had to learn.
Ah.
And we blew up some bridges that shouldn’t have been blown up and Fredericks let us know about that.

�Fredericks of course is the man in charge.
Oh, yeah. He became a Major General before he got through. He was a Lieutenant Colonel when he
took over the force. Then after we took Rome, he was promoted to a Colonel.
But, back then, this was an experimental - this was an experiment, right? I mean this was
Fredericks idea, and people bought into in the military, but this was an experiment. If you guys
failed, this probably would not have continued on to become the Green Berets.
That’s right. But, Eisenhower knew him very well. New what kind of a man he was and what he could
do, and so that is why he was the one that picked. But they also sent him to England to see if they agreed
if they had the right guy or not, and of course they took to him right away.
But regardless of that, this still was an experimental force.
Oh, yeah.
It was the First Special Force.
First of the special forces. And when Kennedy was President, he had the current Green Berets offer to
wear a green beret, which we didn’t have. But we also got a letter stating that we were entitled for that
green beret now. So, at our reunions we always had a memorial service for the guys that had passed
away over the last year, and when we went to Rome, we decided that we should all dress alike. Which
we did. We had a navy blazer, gray slacks, a white shirt and a force tie with our emblem on it. And we
were able to wear our Green Berets, and we always had a little march to where we were having our
memorial service and then they read off those that had passed away, and....
Yeah, sure, sure. Now your training in Montana then, the obstacle courses, the mountain
climbing, demolition. You are doing really a plethora of activities. An Army infantry would be
doing this, or guys training for mountain training would do mountain, paratroopers for
paratrooping. Your doing everything.
That’s right. Even had to learn to drive a weasel.
What is a weasel?
Well, it is a little tracked vehicle that could carry 4-5 men, made by Studebaker that they thought that we
might have to use if they dropped us into Norway to get out, but we never had to use it that way. (26:54)
So, the Montana training then eventually came to an end. And, did they give you any kind of a
ceremony, like with Boot Camp, or was there any kind of a okay you guys have gotten through
here, now you are going there, tomorrow we are going somewheres else.

�Well, yes. But the thing that we had been training for had been cancelled.
This was Norway.
Yup, no, no, no. This was –yes Norway, this was Norway.
Yeah, okay alright.
That was cancelled by the king. So right away General went to Washington to find out what we could
do and that was when we ended up in the Aleutians.
Okay, I don‟t want to jump that quickly. You are finished up in Montana. The word comes to
you that the original mission that you were supposed to be training for in Norway is now off. So,
where did you go next?
We went to Camp Bradford, Virginia for amphibious training. Because he had found this job in the
Aleutians.
Did you know about that job in the Aleutians at that point?
Not until he came back and told us.
Okay, okay. So now you are in Virginia and you are training for an amphibious landing on the
Aleutians. Okay, what was that amphibious training like? Because you guys had not done this
previous this time. (28:25)
No, no we hadn’t. We were in the Chesapeake.
Okay.
For our rubber boat training.
Okay.
How to inflate those and how to paddle them with 6 guys in it and your equivalent. Then they had a big
ship come in and we had to go up and down a rope ladder and the thing was that the Marines had already
done this, but we beat them.
Oh really!
We did it faster than they did we were told, but then we had an actual dry run to make an invasion on dry
land. That way....

�So, this is not like the D-Day thing and the big landing crafts and the thing comes down and you
right out. This is literally 6 men in a boat, inflatable boat and you are paddling away and ...
Yup, Yup.
And, I would assume that this was done at night. This was night training, right? This is not type
of thing that you would be doing in broad daylight.
The 2 times we did it was on the Aleutians and going into Southern France those islands off shore.
Okay. Alright so now from Virginia, you have completed your training with the landing, okay.
Where do they take you next and how do they transport you? From Virginia....
We were going to be shipped out of Virginia, but then they put us in another camp, Camp Patrick Henry,
I think was the name of it. We had to stay there until they were ready to ship us out.
How many men, comprise of this „ship us out‟? I mean how many people are we talking about
here?
When we were at full strength, after we were trained and ready to go. Each regiment had at least 600
men. So we had 1800 total. I will go back to 2 reunions ago, which was in Canada and they asked how
many of you guys were originals in Montana. And, I think that there were about 65 of us there. But
there was a big crowd, but a lot of recruits that we had taken along the way.
Right, we will talk about them later. Alright so this 1800 group is now put out to a ship, a
transport ship, a luxury liner, a troop ship, what kind of a ship was it? (30:41)
A Victory Ship.
Ah, yeah, okay.
Going to the port of San Francisco.
And you had never been on the West Coast.
Ah, no, no.
Okay.
But when we got there, they put us out on an island, so we couldn’t tell other people what we were
doing.
It wasn‟t Alcatraz was it?

�Anyway, we weren’t there too long and we were shipped out. But, it was a Victory Ship. As soon as we
got out under the Golden Gate Bridge, the prop was out of the water and it was
.............and a little bit beyond there it was like this. I could stand on the deck and there was water there
and the next thing I am looking 40 ft. down. I had a guy that got so sick that he never got out of bed all
the way up there and turned green.
How was your reaction physically?
It didn’t bother me. It didn’t bother me.
It is amazing the number of vets that I have talked to that came out that same - not out of your
ship obviously - but out of that same San Francisco Bay and went through that same exact
experience that you are talking about. And gosh it is just across aboard. Some are a little bit sick.
Some violently ill. Some not. It is just amazing.
Oh, yeah. They had barrels rolling all over the deck breaking loose and spilling oil. It was a mess really.
But, on the way back, we were on one of the president’s name ship’s...
President Pierce?
No, it was an old one.
Oh, okay.
But it was a better ride. They had ice cream on that one too.
So, the trip over - where did you land? (32:18)
Uh, the name of that island was .....
That‟s alright. It was secured island though in the Aleutians.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Okay, so you are not landing into a battle zone.
No. No. No.
Did you disembark and actually go onto the island?
Oh yeah, we lived there for awhile. In tents, and then marched through muskeg.
March through what?

�Muskeg they called it. You think that it is grass, but you walk down and you sink in maybe over your
ankles. Then we had guards on at night and they would get lost in the dark.
Oh gosh. This was an island, but what was the terrain like? Was it a jungle terrain or .....?
Well there was no trees or anything, but it was full of this muskeg they called it.
Just like muddy grass kind of thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay. So you are sleeping in pup tents?
No, paramilitary tents.
Okay, alright and were you allowed to have heat and fire and things like that to keep warm.
Oh it was warm. It was August.
Oh, okay, you didn‟t want any fires. Yeah. Okay. What about insects and things like that.
No there weren’t too many there really. The only trouble it they had to bring water into us.
So you were staged there for a couple to weeks or....? (33:47)
Oh yeah, yeah.
And were you informed about where you were going or what you were doing? Were there any
briefings of any kind?
Yeah, yeah.
So what were they telling you?
They were telling that uh, there is 2 islands there held by the Japs and somebody is already on the other
mountain and taken that, but your mountain is going to be Kiska, and that is their air base also. So, the
first and third regiments made the invasion there. The second regiment, who had taken Mount La
Defencia, were back on the island with their chutes on and ready to come if we needed them. Of course
that never happened.
What some people may not know is that this is the real invasion of American land. I mean this is
right up into Alaska. This is a back door into Alaska. The fear was on both and the Canadians
and Americans. If the Japanese were able to move up those islands. They would be able to invade
Alaska, invade Canada and then come on down. So you were actually sent out there and to really

�retake American land. Now, what was the preparation for this invasion? What did you guys have
to go through? I mean you are getting gear on. You are getting..... How are you going to get to
that island? I mean give us an idea of the whole preparation to go.
Well depending on what section you were in.
What was your section?
Mine was the mortar section. So I usually carried the barrel of the mortar and another guy carried the
plate and another that was in the squad carried the ammunition. And of course that stuff gets heavy.
Especially if you are trying to get over a 6 ft. wall. (35:33)
Well I don‟t want to jump ahead to quickly. Let‟s move forward now. You are still on this island.
Did you board a boat at some time?
Yes we did.
Okay, and what kind of boat was this?
A destroyer.
A destroyer, alright. And now you are moving forward to this rendezvous point ...
By rubber boat.
By rubber boat. Okay. So you got off of the destroyer and these rubber boats and once again
used these rope ladders and down into this rubber boat. There is 6 of you in a boat and a whole
bunch of other people with 6 people in a boat.
Plus the ammunition and equipment.
Was it a surprise, or did you encounter guns and shots as you were coming in?
No. No. There was no , it was quiet. Too quiet, we thought too quiet.
At night, pitch black.
Oh yeah, yeah. Until we got in the middle of the lake and the moon came out.
Suddenly you are silhouetted right across there. What was your reaction to that.
Well my sergeant major was in my boat. I said, “What do you think Pat?”. He said, “Boy we are going
to get it now,” he said. But we never heard a shot fired.

�So you silently land and you get the boat up over the 6 ft wall. Now this wall was supposed to be
how big, you were told?
Well, they told us that there was a wall there about 3-4 ft. high. You can get over that easy enough, so.
But it was 6 ft.
So, you get over the wall, still no resistance.
No. But we had to be real quiet so.
So as you are marching forward, what happened? (37:23)
We were only maybe 40-50 yards from the lake.
And still no resistance.
No.
What did you finally come upon? What did you...?
Well we got to the lake, it was a small lake too. So we were paddling. We got about in the middle of it
and like I said the moon came out and silhouetted us, and I thought boy this is going to be it.
Right.
We got no chance now and we kept paddling and paddling. Got to the other shore and got out and took
our equipment and started up that mountain and we got about ½ way up when we got the message that
there was nobody up here.
So some advance patrol perhaps had gone up there to scout it and...
Yeah, the first regiment that was making an invasion with us over on the other side got up there before
we did. Because they had an easy way to go.
I see. So what did you actually find when you got up to the top there?
We found dugouts. Some places we found some hot coals and a fire yet, so we knew that they had left in
a hurry. And some of their equipment was there. I found a lot of post cards and things like that. I got
some of them even in my scrap book today.
Wow?
And they had underwater vessel there. (38:54)

�A submarine?
A submarine base. And they had got away with those too. Those were empty. So, we backed us off and
we went back to our island - no we didn’t. They didn’t even let us go back to our island. They got our
stuff with the service group that we had. Always had a service group. And they got our equipment and
got it on board the ship and we settled back to go to the states.
This is so amazing. It must have been in many ways, I mean, I‟m sure that you were glad that it
happened this way. But in many ways anti-climactic. I mean here you are geared up and there is
nothing there.
That’s right.
Something your not to find a little later on. Alright, so now you are back in the U.S. and where
did you end up....
We ended up in Camp Stoneman, California. He was giving everybody a 10 day leave. So those in that
area got to leave there, then we went back to Port Island. The same place that we came from, because
that base was empty. There was nobody there and then they started letting us have leave, too.
So, where did you go?
Pontiac.
Oh, okay, alright, so you went back to meet with Betty.
Yah, Yah.
Oh, that is wonderful.
In fact, we were there twice and she came out there two different times. She was working at GM, too.
She was a secretary to an agent. And she also had a week off while I was in basic training and she came
down to me there.
Great, great. Now where were you assigned next. (40:47)
We went back to Vermont and were waiting for orders and I think that we were to end up in Italy. But to
get there, we had to go across Africa in box cars. But it was kind of interesting, because actually we
stopped at where the home of Sidi Bellabeste was quartered - French Legion. And we would catch them
out on dress parade and boy, they were really sharp looking. But other than that, no.
Did you know where you were going?
I think we all surmised that we were going to Italy, really. Because Africa had been taking by ....

�Right.
So when we got to the other end of it, they were on another boat and we went to Italy.
Where did arrive in Italy?
I forget that name of that port, but it had been bombed out and there were ships in the way and our ship
had to really get us into the shore, but then they took us to just outside of this town that had been Italian
Army base and we were quartered there for a couple of weeks probably.
Once again, what was the force like. I mean, you were in a group..... was this a huge number, like
the whole 1800 or so was gathered, okay?
Of course, Yup.
All right.
In fact, the only entertainment we ever had was Joe E. Brown.
Oh yeah. (42:30)
They had him come and put a show on for us when we were there.
Bob Hope didn‟t come with them?
No, never saw him. But we had to do exercises and stay in shape all of those two weeks while were
there. And then the next thing, they put us on trucks and took us close to Casino where we got out, and
we got out where the artillery was firing up on these mountains.
So, you were actually seeing combat, I mean, you are not in combat, but you are seeing it. (43:07)
We were seeing it and we got to a certain location that the General picked out for us to keep cover in.
And, then he took a scouting party with him really, maybe 5-6 guys and they went up the mountain. And
the first night they got in under cover, so nobody could see them, and they had to keep quiet. And the
next time he went a little further and scouted out this almost straight up cliff wall, and he said that’s
where we are going. They don’t expect anybody to come up there. And so the very next night they went
up and they got up.
Now you are in reserve right?
We are in reserve, in reserve. So they threw these long ropes up and the hook caught on and they could
go up the rope and he got them all up there and they made their charge as soon as day break hit and they

�had it pretty well secured in 6 hours, because the Germans didn’t expect anybody to come up where we
did.
And this is the hill that you were talking about earlier that previous groups had tried to take
unsuccessfully.
Yup, yup. And, I could understand why because the path we were taking supplies up on was a nice path,
you could walk up that, but I found 2-3 bodies along the way that were from other outfits that were still
there, so that was what was wrong. So, that’s what was wrong, they tried to get up the wrong place.
The Germans then, were concentrating their fire power on the paths, not expecting somebody to
come up straight up the hill.
That’s right, that’s exactly right, Yup.
So, you followed up then with supplies of food and ammunition and what not, your group did.
Yup, Yup.
And when you got to the top, what did you find there? (45:04)
Well there was still a little fight going on the far side of the mountain, but they probably had it all
cleaned up by then, so.
Were they bringing the wounded back and ...
Yup, oh yeah.
So, this was not an easy battle.
No. In fact we got ...........................................................instead of the pack I had on my back.
I am going to have to ask you not to put your hand up there because you are blocking the
microphone and I‟m afraid that we might not get all of these words.
Okay.
So, were you able to communicate at all back home, were you writing letters back to Betty or to
your family and anything like that.
I had a little code the first letter of each paragraph spelled out where I was. Anzeo. And I wondered
how am I going to use that Z. Oh, I knew a kid that was nick named Zeke. So, I said have you see
anything of Zeke has been around. So, she knew where I was.

�So, tell me about Anzio. What was the preparation for it and what was your direct involvement?
(46:16)
Well they had a rough time getting on there because my platoon lieutenant was killed. The executive
officer was killed and the captain was wounded severely and he never came back. So, they had a rough
time getting there. But, this was across that Mussolini Canal on a couple of spots where they could get
across and that is where they got it at. I wasn’t there at the time. So, when I got there, my first sergeant,
who I was a good friend of was commissioned and he was my lieutenant then. And that is when he put
me in charge of the mortar section, because it makes a difference whether you are a T-4 or a buck
sergeant. If you’re a buck sergeant, you got control of men. With T-4 you’re just one of the guys, but it
is the same pay.
Right. And you were a T-4.
I was a T-4.
T for technical.
Yup, Yup.
How many people were in your immediate group - the mortar group?
I had the bazooka men in my group. I had a rocket launcher in my group. I had about 6 people
altogether with myself.
Okay. What was your, you said that you handled the mortar, but what was your specific job?
You drop the shell in and shoot it?
Well, well, I did help that, but the reason why I got assigned to that was because I knew what 5 yards
was. I knew what 100 yards was. Where most of these guys didn’t. So, even a lieutenant in another
platoon would say, “Come on over here, I got a target down here and I know that my guys can’t hit it.”
So, I would give them the yardage and they would fire it, and they would hit. But, I was proud of being
able to do that. That’s why I got the job.
Accuracy is important. Very important. (48:20)
I remember those 5 yard line on that football field.
Oh, of course! Of course! Uh you had mentioned about this Mussolini canal.
advantages for you was there was a lot of dirt there you guys could dig in.

One of the

Oh yeah, we had good shelter. But when we got on the other side of that and across the canal you better
take cover.

�What happened?
They would fire on you. So that was why we did so much night work. Most of out work was done at
night.
The shelling that was coming in, was that mortar fire as well as artillery?
Mortar fire. Well not so much artillery because they knew they couldn’t do anything to us there. But,
there was mortar and rifle. They would be on .... well in fact there was 3 regiments [battalions?] of
Marines [Rangers?] on Anzio and 2 of those battalions went out on patrol one night and got captured all of them. The next day they marched down the main street of Rome. So that left one battalion of
Marines there on the island. Well they were integrated into our outfit.
It‟s strange for them to be integrated into your outfit.
Well they had had more training then the regular...
Right, oh yeah.
So, so, we accepted then and they were with us until the outfit was broken up.
Wow!
But then all of them came with us into the 474, new regiment.
Well, let‟s walk ourselves through Anzio though. I mean um. The battle itself - after the first
group had come in. The Marines had come in. Some of them had been captured. What was the
next step for you personally? What were you doing?
Well when I arrived from the hospital, they were pretty well into these spots. (50:19)
Alright, we jumped over the hospital part. How did you end up in the hospital?
Pneumonia. And then I had an operation on my nose.
I know that because we talked about it. But I want to go back then in terms of - what happened
when you actually diagnosed - you were in a battle.
I passed out.
Okay. So, you were in battle and you passed out.
Yeah.

�And you passed out.
I passed out twice.
And so somebody came along and took you back to the aid station.
Oh yeah, yeah.
And that was when they diagnosed you with pneumonia.
Right. No, no. They did at the first aid station. Then when I got down to the bottom there another aid
station and the doctor looked at me there and the doctor looked at me there and he said, “Oh yeah, he’s
got pneumonia, get him to hell out of here.” So I ended up on an ambulance and was in the hospital the
next thing I knew.
And they found out something about your nose as well.
Seventy five percentage stoppage in both nostrils.
You don‟t know why - you just developed it or....?
Well I probably got hit on my nose in football or someplace.
Oh, oh, okay.
But when I woke up I knew it felt like it.
So how long were you in the hospital?
About 30 days.
And then what happened after that?
Went to Anzio. (51:35)
But you were transferred out of there and Anzio had already been taken?
Yup.
Okay, so now you are coming into a secure area. And you arrived there and regrouped with
your....

�Yeah, I arrived at night, so our company had quarters way back from the line really and they had a nice
warm fire going in the fireplace of the house that they took over, so I slept there that night and then the
next day they took me up to the front line.
And what was your first day on the front line like?
Quiet. Pat Harrison who had become an officer, Canadian, told me that “I am not going to send you out
there right away Harold because you don’t know where to go.” So, he spent a day with me showing me
where our in and outs were at and where the gates that we could get through, and the patrol when you
took it out, and how to be quiet. And of course you are going to blacken face and arms before you go
out there, because they have pretty good eye sight some of them. Well the first patrol I took out, he was
with me. So, we got almost to the road, which is about that much higher than the ground around us, and
they started firing at us. Well I laid down flat and I could see those doggone tracers going over my head.
And I said, “Pat what are we going to do?” And he said, “Don’t get excited, this is kind of normal.” And
I said, “Oh, is it?” And he said, “Did you bring some grenades?” And, I said, “I got 3-4, yes?” And he
said, “Well how far can you throw?” I says, “Far enough to go on the other side of that road?” “Well get
throwing them,” he says. So, then I threw a couple and we heard some screams and hollers and the
firing stopped over there. So, he said, “Well they are taking off, so we might as well go back.” So, that
was my first night out there.
So, your mission, if you will, was to go out and find out where the Germans were and to engage the
Germans? (53:53)
Yeah, yeah, and to take prisoners really, so we could get information from them.
So primarily, you were out there to try to take prisoners.
Yeah, really, yeah.
And this blackened face, this was burnt cork?
Burnt cork, yeah, yeah.
Now over time, the Germans started - you started to get rumors back that the Germans had
reacted to these ......
Well they had captured one of couple of, even one of our officers. But of course, he was blackened to.
But, that is where that thing came from.
So the Germans started calling you what?
The Black Devils.

�Uh huh, and as I understand it some of your guys came up with a kind of interesting - the classical
one from the GI‟s of course in Europe of course was “Kilroy was here”. But you guys kind of had
a unique twist on that, and what was that? They used to leave like a message on a burned out
tank, or a sticker on a burned out helmet.
Yeah, a sticker. “The worst is yet to come.” I have to think every once in a while.
That‟s alright. That‟s alright. That‟s alright. I understand.
Germans prisoners?

Did you actually capture any

Yes.
So, what happened? Tell me about that.
Well, 2 of them had wandered away from their patrol group and we were in a gully and they came down
through that gully and I jumped up and says, “Don’t make a noise. Don’t make a sound. If you make a
sound, your dead.” So, I said, “Now you come. Follow this man that I am pointing to. You follow him,
and don’t make any noise.” Well I got him back to camp
alright so.
What was their ----So you caught them by surprise?
Oh yeah.
So they didn‟t try to shoot you. (55:55)
No, no. Their gun was slung over their shoulder yet. So, I said “Don’t make a move.”
So when they go them back, they were then interrogated
Yup.
Were you ever part of the interrogations?
No, we had a special guy for that. I think I might have said that he was from Norway and he spoke
fluent German, and he came to the states, so they got him in our Army and he ended up in our outfit and
in fact he went back there and married a gal in Norway, after the war was over.
You mentioned earlier that he was very effective.
Oh yeah.
So, what kind of - well maybe you weren‟t privy to this, but what kind of information were you
getting from these Germans? What were they telling you?

�Where their groups were stationed at. Where their artillery was coming from, and we could practically
tell that when it was fired. But, how many are in your group there? Do you have any reserves in back
out you? Anything that he could pump out them. And he could make them talk.
And then the information would be looked at and then decide, „okay you guys are going to check
out this, and you guys are going to check out that, or you are going to take this out.‟ So, what
were you doing immediately after this incident. You were just going on patrols on a regular basis?
Oh yeah, unless they actually really wanted some more prisoners. Because sometimes he wouldn’t have
anything to do - our interrogator. But, they were good soldiers, too. These Germans. (57:39)
These were the actual German army. They were not the SS. These were not the old and feeble.
The young ones that we started see towards of the war.
Yeah, yeah. Regular German army. Yup.
So this period of time you are going out and finding prisoners and what not. So what happened
next? Did this go on for months or weeks?
It went on for weeks like that really.
And then where did you go from there?
Rome.
Ah.
It was probably a good 20 miles anyway from where we were at. But there was the little town of Artina
and another town where my friend got killed.
Well, I don‟t want to jump too quickly here. Where was Ray while you were moving along
through here?
He had been in the hospital just before we pushed of from Anzio, but I didn’t know that. He had had
jaundice. And when we got to Artina and we had taken that, we come down and got rid of the guys that
were hurt. But then I heard somebody say, “Well you know 6 companies come under artillery attack
over on Belmontone town.” And he said, “One guy was killed and the other was wounded pretty bad.”
And I thought, “oh my gosh”. And they said, “That one guy just got out of the hospital, too.” And right
away I knew who it was. But I never did see him. In fact I thought that his parents had brought him
home to Flint and when we went back for that tour in 1984. We went out to the cemeteries. And they
gave us a list of our people that were buried there. And I was going over that list when I was on the bus.
“Betty”, I says, “Ray is buried here!” “What?” “There is his name”. So instead of going to the little
talk they were going to give to us there, we started hunting, well guys that worked there couldn’t speak

�any English. But, I showed him that name, “Oh, oh, oh” He says, and he took right to his grave and I
was pleased because there was trees there and he could have shade a good part of the time. Where the
rest of those were right out in the blasting sun. So, I felt better about it, but I really had thought that he
had been taken home.
You were part of a group that were the first ones into Rome.
Yes, sure were.
Well, I can‟t experience that, so please describe that to me. What was that like? (1:00:28)
Well we entered at a certain gate area and then started for the river and the closer we got the more people
there were along the streets. “Yay American, yay, American. Have a drink!”
But we had to keep going because we had a job to do, but people just thought that is was wonderful that
we were there.
Now, I‟m trying to get a picture here. You were marching down the center, and people were just
starting to come out and they are getting louder and louder and the celebration and all of that.
Yah, yah.
You are still having to move forward and there are people handing you stuff and what not. So
how many men were in your group there walking through? Approximately, I am not looking for
exact numbers.
Well, my whole platoon was there that day and most of the company was too. So there was probably
maybe 40-50 of us in one group. And then there were other groups coming after us. But we knew what
our mission was, it was the bridges. But, actually when I got to the bridge where we were going to and I
looked up and there was a German running way across the other side. But the bridge was still intact.
So, lets backtrack. Your mission was to secure those 7 bridges because you thought that it was
going to be destroyed. And so when you go there you saw the last vestiges of the Germans running
away.
Yah, we were chasing them so fast, I guess, that they just didn’t... they were getting out of there. But we
had about almost 2 weeks in Rome, and in that time, I would walk around the river. And, one day a well
dressed gentleman stopped me, spoke English. Wanted to know if he could have a little visit with me.
Asked me if I was American, I said “Yes ,I am”. So we sat down and had a good talk. His son had been
in the Italian Army. Of course they were all through and he was back home living with his family with
his wife and little 6 year old girl. But he said, “How long are you going to be here”, and I said, “I really
don’t know. They tell me how long I’m going to be here.” But he said, “Well could you come over to
my place. It is just a couple of blocks off the river really.” So, went over one day and they welcomed
me and I met the whole family and had a good visit with them. Finally, I says, “Well, what was your job
here? What did you do?” He said, “I worked in the Hall of Justice. So he knew pretty much what was

�going on, but he says, “Now, before you go, I want you to come over here and we will have a party, a
dinner.” I says, “Well when is that, I don’t think we are going to be here long.” He says, “Well, how
about the day after tomorrow.” I says, “Okay, if I can get away, I will be over.” So, I went over and they
had a dinner. Spaghetti and bread. Nothing on the Spaghetti, just plain Spaghetti and bread. And, as
soon as we finished, I thanked them and says, “Well, that was very nice.” “Well, now wait a minute.
Don’t get excited,” he says. “I have been saving something all during the war. So he went down in the
basement and he brought up a can of peaches about that big around and about that high. And he says, “I
have been saving this all during the war for something special. Now this is it.” Well, I thought that was
pretty nice. Actually, I stayed over night with them one night, and had my own room. I got on the
feather tick bed and I suck down about that far. And is said, “Wow, I haven’t had anything this soft
ever.” Because I had been used to sleeping on the ground and in the fox hole. But they were nice people.
Now, I understand that you were friends with the cook. Around that time. (1:04:27)
Oh yeah. This was in Norway.
Oh, okay.
This was in Norway, because we were only there 2 weeks in Rome and then we went to Lake Albano,
which is where the cooks home was, right on the water there. So we had a 2 week rest there.
So, where did you go from Rome then?
We were getting ready for Southern France. And we had got some more recruits in. So, we...
Now these recruits that are coming in now, who are these guys?
Well, guys that had basic training I guess.
These were not special force?
No, no.
Okay, these are just ....okay.
But, we gave them some amphibious training in the ocean, while we had them there, because we were
right on the ocean practically. But some of them worked out all right and others thought this was a hoax.
But they learned in a hurry that there wasn’t any hoax, that it was the real thing. But Southern France
wasn’t too bad really.
Well, what was your mission there?
The 2 islands off of the coast had to be taken before the main invasion came in, and again here we went
in by destroyer and rubber boats and made the invasion. Had hardly any trouble really.

�But there were Germans...?
They were on there, they were on there, yes.
So, there was a fire fight, there was a ......okay.
Yup, yup. And there was several casualties, but not too bad. (1:06:11)
What about the weather? Because we think of the invasion of Normandy that the weather was so
bad and we had to delay and everything. So did you run into that stuff at all?
It was summer time there.
Oh, okay.
So, as soon as we cleared those islands, they brought us back on shore and then we started going south
liberating these little towns. The Germans were on the run anyway at that time.
Who was in charge of this operation at the top?
Well, I think that it was still part of Clark’s. But by then, Fredericks had become a General and he came
in with a bunch of guys and dropped them not too far from the main landing area. So we had that
cleared. And then I don’t know exactly where they went from there, because it was our group that was
clearing all of these little towns out. But there were hardly and Germans left around and we ended up
just outside of Nice, France, and a little town of Biot Abbé. And that was we were deactivated at.
And that was not an easy moment for you guys. (1:07:30)
No, no. Because one morning they called everybody out to line up in formation. They had all of out
there all lined up where we were supposed to be and then they said that the Canadians were going to be
moved out. So, they said, “Canadians move out.” And then when they did, then they told us to close
ranks and nobody moved. Nobody moved. Because we felt like brothers, you know, to these guys by
then. And we were going to lose them. But the older ones really were sent to England and became
instructors there because they were getting a lot of recruits over in England for the main invasion. And
the recruits that we picked up along the way, they were sent to regular Army Units wherever they might
be. That also happened to out outfit. That we had a lot of recruits that didn’t have much training really,
but the ones that still had the wings, the paratroopers. Part of those were sent to the Bulge, which was in
the Bulge at that time - 82nd Airborne and the 101st Airborne was looking for paratroopers and some of
ours was sent to the 101st because they were going to be dropped into Holland.
Where did you go?
To form this new unit. To form the new [4]74th. I was asked to stay in and help with that.

�So, what was your specific job? What were you supposed to be doing? (1:09:28)
Well, when we go these new recruits, I was an acting First Sergeant for one of the companies. Wasn’t
my own company, but when I had that done, I came back to my own company. I was second in
command of the platoon. Was a technical sergeant then.
So, what was your mission from there?
Well, that was when we got these guys recruited and we went into Germany.
Okay.
We went in at Aachen, I remember when we went in at Aachen.
You walked in?
Yup, yup.
What did you find?
Well we were to hunt along this quarter that Patton had gone through, because he goes through like
greased lightened and he leaves a lot of the Nazis along on the sides. Well, some of the guys were real
nasty, but that is the ones we had to look for and find and get and then get them to a prison, prisoner of
war camp. (1:10:29)
So, were yourself and your group capturing prisoners along the way?
Yeah, yeah.
What were the state of the prisoners that you were getting? You talked earlier of German Army
people. What were you finding as you were going into Germany?
Well, some of the older guys, I think, were glad to be captured, and some of the younger ones thought
that they were still, ah, hot stuff. Then you had to use a little strain on them.
But you are talking about the actual fighting? The action?
Yeah, yeah.
And they finally, they either stand up or ....how do they surrender by the way? Do they just stick
there hands up in the air, or wave a flag, or.....?

�Well, when they see us coming they dropped their gun and some of them will start to run, but if we fire a
shot over their head, they stopped.
But were you finding as you moved into Germany less and less of a quality fighting man? Tell us
about that.
Well, well, like I say these older guys, I’m sure felt that they wished that war was over with because they
had been in it even longer than we had so, but a lot of them were ready to lay down their guns and go to
a prisoner of war camp for awhile.
So, once you captured them they were then....
Taken to a camp.
Somebody took them to a camp. You were still going on, you were moving forward.
Yup, yup.
So where did you end up?
Close to Nuremberg. Wasn’t in there, but close to it. Then they pulled us back and sent us to Northern
France, just outside of Cherbourg, that big port there. But we made a tent city out of it and trained these
recruits a little more, so we figured that they could do things that we would like them to do.
We are running out of time here, but I want to make sure that we get back to this. What was the
Champagne Campaign? Why did they call it the Champagne Campaign? (1:12:28)
Well because you could get Champagne along the way any place that you wanted it. I guess.
Really. So you are moving through a village, so they wait until you are taken out...
That was wine country there.
But you also mention about the lack of water.
Yeah, at times we were told that we couldn’t .... well that was we was in our way into Rome really.
“Don’t drink the water,” we were told so. And if they didn’t have time ...they put a lister bag up for us
with chemicals in it to make it right, but that didn’t happen when you were on the run.
So you were actually drinking wine along the way.
Sometime, sometimes.

�Now, at some point - we are going to have to continue this on at a later date because there just so
much more to go - but you end up actually in Norway. When you first started out you were
supposed to go into Norway and you never made it to Norway. Now you are in Norway. What
were you doing in Norway? (1:13:30)
Gathering up the Germans. There was about 300,000 Germans up there and they all had to be gathered
up and brought to a place where we disclosed [?] them and stripped them down and took everything
away from the except their clothes. Put them on a ship and send them back to Germany.
So your job was basically to control this huge group of German prisoners - make sure that they
don‟t have any weapons or anything like that.
Yup, that’s right.
And then get them processed to go back to Germany.
Yup, yup. And, but the Germans have all of those warehouses.
Talk about those warehouses.
Well they had them stacked full of food and wine. In fact when we were in Norway, even well the first 3
graders of the non-coms got a 3 bottle deal of wine of champagne each week, and you can imagine what
the officers had.
But, meanwhile while all of this food and wine were at the warehouses for the occupying Germans,
what about the Norwegians.
They were going in for it.
No I mean before, in other words they didn‟t have an access there. They didn‟t have food. They
were........
Oh, not until we got there, and then they were able to start getting stuff.
Now you had an actual example of meeting up with a Norwegian man. Talk about that.
Well, as I told you he was a retired sea captain, he told me. And he spoke good English. He had about a
14 year old daughter and a 12 year old boy I’d say and his wife. But she could not speak English at all,
where the kids could because it was required subject at that time. And, so any time I’d go, I would take
them something that the cook would give me to give to me and when ever she would see me coming, she
would just break out in tears. She knew I had something for her that they hadn’t had in years.
What were you bringing her? (1:15:44)

�Well, sugar, ah, like the Crisco stuff that they never had seen before. Maybe sugar. Hadn’t seen any
sugar in a long time.
So really, the basics that they would need to kind of make their meal.
Yup, yup, that’s right. And a....
That‟s actually a lot better then bringing her a ham or a chicken, because all of that stuff can be
used or other things.
Oh yeah. Even popcorn they hadn’t seen in years, and the cook he had some popcorn and he says, “Give
them some of that.” Well I took it and they popped it and thought that that was just wonderful. And I
even took some real butter along to put on it.
Oh my gosh, wow. So when was it that you heard that the war in Europe was over with.
Close to Nuremberg.
Okay, so you already new before you went in Norway.
Yup, yup.
Was there any thought that you might have to go to Japan?
Uh, yes. But, I wasn’t letting that bother me because I had been through enough all ready and I was glad
that I didn’t accept that commission, because if that had happened, I know where I would have been.
So you were actually offered a commission that would have sent you to the Pacific.
Yes, yes I was, yup, yup.
And you figured well that‟s enough. So, you wind up in Norway - Norway is where you find out
about V-J day. Was that where you were when you ........
Oh yes, yes.
Okay, so now you know the war is over with.
Yup, we knew it was over.
And you got a chance to go home.
In fact I had me whole platoon go into town and try to find something to eat or drink and they stayed out
too late, and I got called in the next morning by the captain. And he says, “You are an awfully good man

�Harold, but I really can’t blame you for what you did last night,”, and he says, “you guys deserved a little
break, so we will just forget this. But on the way home, when we left Norway, he gave me a
commendation. And I couldn’t believe how great he was in saying what I did and how much I meant to
him for what I did, so.
So, where did you arrive in the states? (1:18:05)
New York.
Oh, man!
We come into New York and I thought - most of our guys were down below gambling, rolling dice or
shooting craps or whatever - I says I’m going up, I had never seen that Statue or Liberty. We went right
by it. And while I am standing there looking at it, my captain came up and he says. I figured I’d see you
here Harold and he says. You were one of my best men that I had. Well, I said, “Thank you sir.” But he
was a nice guy. He had been a teacher at college, too. Be he originally was a lieutenant in another
regiment, but I ended up in his company in the 474th and, but he really gave a good recommendation.
What was the......, I know that this is difficult and a long time ago, but what was the feeling of
seeing that Statue of Liberty?
I had tears in my eyes. That’s how I felt. I’m back home safe. Here I am and what I’ve been through,
I’ve got to thank the Lord that he brought me through all of this. I’m a Christian.
I‟ve got 2 more questions for you, and these are the tough ones. You finally get back home. Did
you arrive by train, when you got home?
I did.
Was the family there to meet you?
Betty was there. I had to arrive in Detroit from New York. And she was there waiting for me.
You‟re in uniform.
Yeah, I am.
And you get off the train and there she is. (1:19:51)
Yup.
What was that like?

�In heaven. Well, I had a bag of stuff that I brought home of souvenir type things, so I says set in the
back there and I will show you these and tried to get in the car and the door was locked. So, there was a
garage right there and the guy says. You left your key in the other door. So, then I got the other key and
got in. But then she says, “You want to drive.” And I says, “No way! Not down these streets of Detroit.
Although, I did help drive the truck a lot of the times because my driver would go to sleep on me. I says,
“Pull it over”. I says, “Get on the other side”. So I would drive the 6x6 hauling the guys in the back of
it. And I enjoyed it really.
Now, let me get this straight. You didn‟t want to drive in Detroit because it was too dangerous.
Well those cars were going like this you know. And I love to drive. I love to drive.
One more. How do you feel your military experience shaped the person you are today? (1:21:16)
It had a lot to do with it. It had a lot to do with it. I knew how to take orders and I knew how to give
orders. I knew how to behave when I had to behave and I respected my officers and they all respected
me because of the way I acted.
Well sir, I want to thank you very much for taking the time. I want to thank John Friends as well,
who brought you here. This has been a remarkable interview and I feel very honored that you
have sat down and had a chance to talk to me.
Well I appreciate it. Thank you for your kind words.

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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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                <text>Harold Sibley was born in Grand Lake, Michigan in 1921.  After graduating from high school, he tried to enlist in the Navy Air Corps, but was rejected due to his eyesight.  Later on, he was drafted into the Army and eventually volunteered for the First Special Force, the predecessor to the Green Berets.  Harold was a mortar man for the special force and was sent to the Aleutian Islands, Anzio, Southern France, Rome, Nuremburg and many other places throughout Western Europe.  He was in Norway processing German prisoners of war when the war ended.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam War
Tom Sibley
Length of interview: 01:22:52:00
Pre-Enlistment (0:00:09:00)
 Born in Muskegon, Michigan in May, 1945 (0:00:09:00)
 His father had a couple of kids before Sibley and was working in Muskegon at a defense
factory, both of which made him exempt from the draft, although Sibley did have a
couple of uncles who served (0:00:17:00)
 Grew up in Muskegon and graduated from Muskegon Catholic Central in 1963 before
attending Muskegon Community College (0:01:00:00)
 Got a basketball scholarship from Northern Arizona University-Flagstaff and graduated
in January, 1968 with a major in Psychology and a minor in Sociology (0:01:09:00)
 After he graduated, he knew he was going to be drafted because while he was in school,
he had an exemption from the draft (0:02:02:00)
 After graduation, he thought about the Peace Corps, applied, and was accepted
(0:02:14:00)
o Had to a make a decision because a man from the Peace Corps was talking to him
and the training for the location he would be sent, Afghanistan, was in Colorado
and he would have to report in a week or two (0:02:26:00)
o Sibley agonized over the decision because joining the Peace Corps sounded like a
positive things but on the other hand, if he went to the Peace Corps, he could still
be drafted and that was a long time to be tied up and in the end, he decided not to
join the Peace Corps (0:02:47:00)
 Went home to Muskegon and worked for a few months at the employment bureau while
he waited until he got his orders to report (0:03:10:00)
 Received his orders in May 1968 and reported down to Detroit for a physical before a
good sized group of men from Muskegon were bused down to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for
basic training (0:03:24:00)
 One of his professors at Northern Arizona, Byron Fox, was quasi anti-Vietnam war who
presented the information and let the students decide what they ought to believe
(0:03:58:00)
o Sibley had a lot of questions about whether Vietnam made any sense or not, even
when he was in college, and even at Northern Arizona, there were a couple of
anti-War demonstrations and possibly a small group of SDS (Students for a
Democratic Society), although Sibley fell more in the middle of the discussion
(0:04:31:00)
 His prior views on the war was one of the reasons it was difficult to decide to let himself
get drafted, because at the time, if someone had a college degree, they could teach
because there was a shortage of teachers (0:05:27:00)

�

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o Someone at one of the local parochial schools offered him a teaching position,
which also would have given him a deferment, but at the time, Sibley did not feel
too ambivalently enough to do something just to avoid the draft (0:05:43:00)
“Allowed” himself to be drafted and in the back of his mind, he thought that since he had
a college degree, he might get a decent job since he did not want to get into a position of
killing people because he went to Catholic schools his whole life, which taught him not to
kill people (0:06:10:00)
There was some sense of patriotism, although at the time, he had friends who opposed the
war and fought against the draft board and although none of his good friends were drafted
but they all went through the process of being CO’s (Conscientious objectors)
(0:06:54:00)
o Although a small percentage of guys were drafted, a much larger group was
affected, so in a big way, all the guys were Vietnam veterans (0:07:55:00)

Training (0:09:03:00)
 His basic training was at Fort Knox, Kentucky (0:09:03:00)
 Because he was an athlete, the physical part was relatively easy and he was number two
in his company in PT, with a score of 196 out of 200 max (0:09:09:00)
 He had a college degree and had just turned 23, while most of the other men were
younger, around 19 and while most of the men in his platoon were from Muskegon, but
he did not know them because they were younger than him, although he did know a
fellow grad whom he bunked with (0:09:33:00)
 Their instructors were not too high on trying to prepare the men for the war directly, but
more of general PT and basic weapons, as well as Army discipline and trying to sort out
who they were and where they would go (0:10:05:00)
 Sibley was not “gung-ho”, although when he went in, the drill instructor chose him to act
as the liaison between the DI and the platoon because Sibley was a college grad and was
older and was athletic (0:10:36:00)
o Although he did the PT, his heart was not into ordering the other guys to get up
early to run or staying up late to prepare for inspection and so Sibley rebelled a
little against that, whereas he would do it, but he would not order others to do it
and soon he was down to squad leader and soon, someone else was squad leader
(0:11:05:00)
o He was not interested in taking leadership, although he had opportunities to do so
(0:11:44:00)
 Basic training lasted 8 weeks, after which he went to his Advanced Individual Training
(AIT) and received his orders (0:12:04:00)
o Receiving his orders was one of the low points of his life because his orders were
infantry training at Fort Polk, Louisiana and he remembers calling his mother and
being depressed before going to Fort Polk (0:12:20:00)
 Above the gates leading into Fort Polk and all along the sides was a sign reading
“‘Tigerland’, Combat Infantrymen for Vietnam” (0:13:11:00)
o All the new recruits went to a large building where the base commander gave a
speech and showed a video rationalizing why the United States was in Vietnam
and after the film, the commander said that all the men were going to Vietnam
and most, due to the film and speech, gave a cheer (0:13:28:00)

�
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o When going into mess hall, the soldiers counted off by fives, saying “Cong Killer
1, Sergeant”, “Cong Killer 2, Sergeant” . . . (0:14:21:00)
Did not have conflict with the other guys in training because they were busy every day
and he does not remember having political arguments with the others, partly because he
felt ambivalence inside him (0:14:40:00)
Went to the base chapel and said that he did not think he could kill anyone and whether
he had any alternatives, saying he would give 10 years of service to get out of being an
infantryman (0:15:12:00)
o The man in the chapel listened and simply said that Sibley had to do the job and
just because he did not want to fight did not mean the army would not give him
another job (0:15:31:00)
Arrived at Fort Polk with other men from Fort Knox whom he had grown to know well
(0:15:50:00)
The army said some men, Sibley included, would have a little bit of different training on
some different weapons, mortars and they would be designated 11 Charlie, with 11 Bravo
being light weapon infantry and 11 Charlie being mortars (0:15:57:00)
o This somewhat upset Sibley because he had to leave some of the men he knew
best (0:16:18:00)
o Most of their training was together with the infantry, although some was different
weapons training with the mortars (0:16:28:00)
Only town he remembers that was close to Fort Polk was Leesville, although the fort
might have been around Baton Rouge and he remembers going into Leesville only one
time (0:16:55:00)
Area around the fort was swampy and being the middle of summer, it was hot, both of
which served as preparation for Vietnam, along with several fairly realistic Vietnamese
villages the Army had constructed (0:17:15:00)
Most of the cadre were Vietnam veterans and guys that Sibley respected and who were
career soldiers and were fair, consistent, do-it-themselves (0:17:31:00)
o Sibley does not remember having any problems with the cadre in his doing this or
doing that, such as when he would go into the mess hall, he would say “Cong
Swiller” as a compromise because he was not ready to say “Cong Killer”
(0:18:00:00)
Like basic training, AIT lasted about 8 weeks after which the men received their orders
(0:18:46:00)
o Sibley received orders for Vietnam and a 30 day leave, which ended in October,
and he remembers standing at the Muskegon County Airport with a groups
heading to Oakland with him and think that being an infantryman, there was a
good chance he might not be coming back, at least in the shape he was in then,
and he remembers because he was the oldest, being the first to walk out to the
plane (0:19:02:00)
Plane took them to Oakland, which had a large center for processing soldiers, where they
received all their equipment for Vietnam (0:19:59:00)
The night before going to Vietnam, he snuck out of the barracks, and knowing what
would happen the next day, snuck to a bar in San Francisco while thinking, “What are
they going to do, send me to Vietnam?” (0:20:16:00)

�

o At the bar, he told people he was going to Vietnam, but no one believed him and
he snuck back into the base when it was getting light (0:20:51:00)
Flew in a contracted passenger plane to Vietnam, on which he talked with the other
soldiers and though about his life (0:21:17:00)

Vietnam (0:21:46:00)
 One of the first impressions he had of Vietnam was, when walking off the plane, how hot
and muggy it was (0:21:46:00)
 Flew into Long Binh and stayed in a replacement company for a couple of days before
being processed again and told what division and location he would report to
(0:22:02:00)
 Had all his gear in duffel bag, and the Army threw it onto a C-130, which flew to one
place and left some guys off and ended up in Pleiku (0:22:22:00)
o When he got off the plane, the duffel bag with all his equipment was gone;
someone had stolen it (0:22:39:00)
 Did not arrive in Pleiku until the evening and he and several others replacements where
picked up by a truck that drove right through the middle of Pleiku, which at the time was
small, to get to Camp Enari, the 4th Infantry Division base camp (0:22:55:00)
o They had not eaten that day, so they went to the mess hall and another man, who
looked like he had just come out of the bush, was going into the mess hall to get
something to eat but the mess hall servers tell him he is not getting anything and
they have a large argument with the man (0:23:44:00)
 Was in a little replacement unit and while in the barracks, he talked with the men on his
left and right, both of whose job were to take care of dead bodies, which made Sibley
wonder if he was getting a message (0:24:27:00)
 Ordered to his particular battalion, the 3rd of the 12th Infantry, but remembers that before
he went, they lined up in a little formation and someone asked whether anyone knew how
to type, after which Sibley said he could and the man said nothing further (0:25:02:00)
 The 3rd of the 12th was outside Dak To at the time, so they took a truck from Pleiku to
Dak To, specifically to a base outside of Dak To with helicopters and were helicoptered
to Hill 1338, named so because the Army would name hill based on their elevations, and
Hill 1338 was one of the highest elevations in the area (0:25:37:00)
 Hill 1338 was fairly secure because the Army had been there for a while and there was
even artillery on it, both of which made Sibley assume that Hill 1338 was the battalion
commander’s hill (0:26:14:00)
o First hill he went to and was where he was introduced to his mortar platoon
because his company was on the hill and the guys in the mortar platoon showed
him what to do, although he came in by himself and the others were counting
down the days until they left (0:26:35:00)
 There were beautiful sunsets on the hill and he would sit outside his bunker and the first
sunset made an impression on him (0:27:06:00)
 Was told he would either be a mortar man or carry an M16, depending on what they
needed and when he got to Hill 1338, they needed mortars, so he went into the mortar
platoon (0:27:27:00)
o His platoon’s job was to support an infantry platoon when they went out on
ambushes and search and destroy missions (0:27:43:00)

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At that time, body count was the philosophy; see how many they could kill and Sibley
did not know the overall philosophy or big picture at the time and he had a more small
picture view; he was with the other guys and they had a job to do (0:28:04:00)
Used 81 mm mortars at the time and they would typically operate from a hill
(0:28:33:00)
o They would set up the mortars on the hill and run their patrols off the hill and they
did not carry the mortars into the bush (0:28:57:00)
o Provided security for the hill at night by setting the mortars to defend the
perimeter but also to assist any units in the field (0:29:10:00)
Remembers humping the mortar on time, right before Christmas when they had to carry
not only the mortar and base plate, but also their personal supplies in a rucksack, as well
as shells for the mortar (0:29:39:00)
o Walked the mortar uphill right before Christmas because there was a cease-fire at
Christmas 1968 and the men did not seem worried at the time (0:30:14:00)
o Was hot, the men where sweating, people were struggling and over time, they
started dropping parts of the mortar on the side of the trail, although no one got on
them about it and they walked up to where they were camping before going back
to get the other parts (0:30:40:00)
If they were at a place for a month, that was a long time and they traveled around quite a
bit (0:31:31:00)
There were campaigns but he did not know the big picture; he was told what to do and he
did it (0:31:42:00)

Daily Life (0:32:01:00)
 Daily was monotonous and normally filled with filling sandbags but they were busy and
he does not remember ever being bored (0:32:01:00)
 The other guys were a decent group and they would fill sandbags and prepare their
defenses and they could improve their living situation by building a bunker to sleep in,
which was better than sleeping under their poncho liners because at night, night it would
get cool and the soldiers only cover was a poncho (0:32:15:00)
 Camps did not come under fire often and it was usually mortar fire (0:33:02:00)
o They had air support and one time, after receiving mortar fire, jets came out of
nowhere for support and when they bombed the position, it was a morale boost
(0:33:50:00)
o The guys who had fired the mortar where probably not there or had gone into
their bunkers but when the jets came over a hill, they did a spin, which acted like
a morale boost to have that kind of support quickly available (0:34:30:00)
 They were in contact with the units in the field, who would tell them what was going on
and one time, a squad in the field reported that the mortars had killed the enemy, and the
others cheered (0:35:07:00)
o Sibley did not cheer because he did not feel good that they had killed the enemy;
he had no problem doing his job because the enemy were trying to kill him and
his buddies but he could not get to the point that he was happy about killing others
(0:35:37:00)
o Still carried some ambivalence with him although it did not affect the duty he had
to do (0:36:02:00)

�
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
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Very informal relations when he arrived, mostly person to person (0:36:21:00)
Did not get any extra training when he got to Vietnam, because he was in a replacement
area only for a couple of days for processing and it was up to the battalion whether or not
they would receive extra training and their training was done informally on the hill
(0:36:41:00)
Losing his duffel bag did not seem to be a problem and although he was worried about it
because he was responsible for it, no one seemed to care and they just issued him new
equipment in Vietnam (0:37:25:00)
In general, they were well supplied and out in the field, they usually received one hot
meal a day along with their C-Rations (0:37:46:00)
o Usually they tried to helicopter in hot meal at night, although it was usually SOS
[(Shit on a Shingle), not steak and eggs (0:37:54:00)
o Once they were established on a hill, then they could bring in a hot meal; other
than that, they ate C-Rations (0:38:23:00)
One time when they got hungry, there was not enough food, not even C-Rations and all
the men talked about food, which was the big thing on their minds, and when they went
to bed that night, the soldiers were talking about when they got home, where to get the
best food (0:38:30:00)
o The next day or so, they received more C-Rations and as a result of the
experience, one time when they had the opportunity to get some C-Rations and
store them, they went and stole a box of C-Rations, although they got in a little
trouble for doing it (0:39:05:00)
Another time, they were in an area where, for some reason, they were short of water and
they were getting thirsty, although there was a little bit of rain because they would try to
catch and drink the rainwater (0:39:41:00)
o They were rationing the water for a while and although it was only for a couple of
days, it still made a big impression (0:40:04:00)
o It was a supply issue, which he remembers only happening once, and there was a
stream nearby and they ended up sending people there to get water (0:40:14:00)
Everybody in the unit took a lot of pills and he does not remember people getting sick
(0:40:39:00)
o Everyone carried mosquito repellant, which the Army issued (0:41:05:00)
Nobody ever asked him to buy any marijuana or gave him any, although, there were a
few people in the platoons that would go out on patrols who were smoking marijuana
(0:41:35:00)
o Smoking was not real prevalent, especially in the mortar platoon, but became
more so once the unit was in base camp (0:41:53:00)
They would get beer at times, which they could order with along with pop, when they
were on the hill, although they took a chance because if they moved, they had to carry it
with them, so they only ordered small amounts (0:42:06:00)
They eventually had what was called a “stand-down”, when they came out of their area,
which the Army made it seem like a reward (0:42:48:00)
o They had a new deployment planned for after the stand-down but when they came
into the base camp, there was a band playing (0:43:06:00)
o Did not get to the base camp until later in the day and they had a steak dinner and
beer (0:43:23:00)

�

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

o The unit was a little out of control and he remembers hearing that they were such
a problem, the Army sent them out early and one night, when he was trying to
find his way back to the barracks, he ended up sleeping in the back of an
ambulance truck (0:43:37:00)
Every so often, someone from HQ would come out to the hill and say that they had some
R&amp;R and if someone had been there for a specific amount of time, then they were
eligible (0:44:21:00)
o Some R&amp;R was more popular than others and there were options and the person
would ask, “anyone want Bangkok, anyone want Hong Kong, anyone want
Taiwan, anyone want Australia” and guys would take them and whoever had the
most time in got first choice (0:44:30:00)
o One time, there was one left for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and Sibley took it,
saying he would go anywhere, anytime, if he could go somewhere (0:44:52:00)
o Went to Kuala Lumpur and that was an experience in itself because One day he
was on his hill and the next day he was on a commercial airline with a stewardess
(0:45:04:00)
 Bused into Kuala Lumpur from the airport and he was freed to do
whatever he wanted (0:45:27:00)
 Did some touring and goofed around, including going to a rubber
plantation and seeing a very interesting circus, where man would drink a
bowl of goldfish then regurgitate them (0:45:33:00)
o Trip was about five days and then he was back in Vietnam (0:46:42:00)
He had very little contact with Vietnamese people (0:47:03:00)
o There were some on the base camp that did the menial jobs in the camp and the
times he was in base camp there was some contact (0:47:05:00)
o When they were on hills, most of the people they dealt with where Montagnards,
native tribesmen (0:47:25:00)
o There Vietnamese in the town of Pleiku and the other towns but out from the
towns, along the main roads, were villages of other ethnic groups, most of whom
aligned with the American soldiers and although the soldiers had some contact
with the villagers, they could not speak to one another (0:47:37:00)
Before going over, he heard stories about soldiers being involved in killing civilians and
not knowing who their enemy was and one of his biggest fears was what would he do in a
situation like that and what would he do if he saw one of his buddies killing an unarmed
person or torturing them; thankfully it never happened (0:48:16:00)
Their enemy was the North Vietnamese Army (NVA), which made it our army against
their army and a lot cleaner for him and his group because their was no question who
their enemy was; made it a lot easier for Sibley (0:48:53:00)
While he was there, no one in the mortar platoon was killed, although Sibley did get a
little sliver in his back, which he still has because the doctors told him it would go out by
itself (0:49:31:00)
When he got into base camp and was assigned to his unit, they asked who could type and
Sibley said he could because if a unit was in the field for 6 months or more, their
company clerk left and the commanders had to chose someone to replace him
(0:49:52:00)

�








So, their company clerk left and the commanders were looking for a someone new and
the would take someone from the company who had been in the combat for 6 months or
more and make them the clerk and they chose Sibley to be the new clerk (0:50:09:00)
Came into base camp as the company clerk, although he still had guard duty and
sometimes he would go out around the base camp on ambush patrol; the first ambush
patrol he was on was while he was the clerk in base camp and he hoped that no one
would walk down the trail (0:50:28:00)
As company clerk, he would process in newly arrived soldiers and one time, a soldier
named Willings was assigned to mortars (0:51:12:00)
o He talked with Willings about how he was Sibley’s replacement and he told
Willings to say “hi” to several men and to take some stuff to them and about a
week later, the hill he had come from received a sapper attack (0:51:26:00)
 Knew that that area was a place the NVA did not want the Americans to
be in because other times while they on that hill, platoons would get hit
(0:51:59:00)
 One platoon got hit bad and they had to leave some men behind and the
men in the mortar platoon could see the attack and were listening on the
radio to the mass confusion and eventually ended up supporting the
beleaguered platoon (0:52:17:00)
 All day fighting and at night, they managed to get some of the men
out (0:52:50:00)
 This was another moment for Sibley because the morning before the
patrol, a Catholic priest came out and gave a service and kneeling down in
the service was a sergeant who had trained him at Fort Polk (0:52:57:00)
 This sergeant was in the platoon that went out and later in the day,
when they had managed to helicopter some of the platoon back to
the hill, Sibley went down and saw that one of the men who had
been hit badly was the sergeant (0:53:35:00)
o Willings lost both of his legs in a sapper attack on their base, and some of the
other men in the mortar platoon were killed or wounded (0:54:39:00)
Did not spend real long as the company clerk because he was getting back problems and
eventually he went to the medic but they could not do a lot for the back pain, which
continued getting worse (0:55:20:00)
o He did a lot of lifting and one time, a little Vietnamese lady was in the company
mess tent trying to lift a large pot of water to make drinks and Sibley said he
would help and when he lifted the pot, it irritated his back (0:55:39:00)
o Doctors thought he was trying to get out of Vietnam, which was not the case, but
the doctors did not know that and finally, they sent him to the 71st Evacuation
Hospital on the other side of Pleiku, who admitted him, continued checking him
and eventually noticed numbness in his foot and pains up and down his leg
(0:56:20:00)
Was sent to Japan and after the doctors tested him there, they administered to him right
away because of the possibility of nerve damage in his leg and he had surgery there and
had some contact with the other guys in the unit (0:56:57:00)

�














Someone he knew from Muskegon eventually interviewed him and when asked where he
wanted to go from there, Sibley said back to Vietnam, but the interviewer said that he
was not going back to Vietnam (0:57:25:00)
o Sibley thought it was funny because he did not want to go back to Vietnam and
now he was ambivalent and thought, maybe he should go back there (0:57:41:00)
o Had a physical profile as far as lifting (0:57:56:00)
Did not have much longer to go and when the Army asked where he would like to go, he
said somewhere in the northeast because he had never been to the northeast, so they
assigned him to Fort Dix, New Jersey (0:58:01:00)
Came home and his mom picked him up from the airport because he had some leave time
(0:58:18:00)
The hospital plane was Australian and it had Australian nurses on it and the men were
strapped in and could not move and even when Sibley asked to move because of his back
pain, they said no (0:58:39:00)
When he was in Japan, all the injured were in a line waiting and he remembers talking to
the guy next to him, who was from Cleveland, Ohio and the man talked about how he and
his buddies were dealing with Viet Cong and some of the men he was with were killed
and some others managed to capture some Viet Cong, one of whom was a woman, and
the soldier described very graphically how he and his buddies killed her (0:59:00:00)
When he got to Fort Dix, Sibley was assigned the job of being a guard at the stockade
because of his weapons training but he said that he would not carry a weapon and he
talked with some people and he must have talked to the right person, because they
changed his MOS (1:00:44:00)
They changed his MOS to Psychological Specialist because of his degree and although he
still worked in the stockade, he interviewed soldiers being ordered into the stockade,
most of whom were from New York City (1:01:08:00)
o Slightly infamous because of the anti-war demonstrations, including
demonstrations outside of the major bases, including Fort Dix and there were antiwar protestors inside the stockade that were resisting while they were in the
military (1:01:41:00)
Eventually, the Army transferred him to Fort Monmouth, which people told him it was
the “country-club” of the army (1:02:20:00)
o The food was decent and Sibley played tennis at night and was on the basketball
team (1:02:35:00)
o Worked in a psych clinic where he interviewed people that where in a mental
health clinic (1:02:46:00)
Had a little PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) but he did not realize it at the time
and a couple of strange occurrences helped back up his prognosis (1:03:04:00)
o When he was on the basketball team, a guy gave him an elbow and Sibley told
him not to do it again; the man bummed Sibley again and Sibley punched him in
the mouth in the middle of the basketball game (1:03:25:00)
o Another time, the staff at the mental health clinic were talking and Sibley started
crying and he could not stop; he did not know what triggered the incident
(1:03:40:00)
o Both incidents made him ask what was going on and when he cried, the others
gave him space (1:04:17:00)

�


With a month to go in his tour, he was promoted to E-5 (1:05:01:00)
Does not think anyone offered him the opportunity to re-up (1:05:27:00)

Post-Military (1:06:19:00)
 Did as little as possible when he got out of the Army, which was another indication of his
mental state (1:06:19:00)
o He grew a beard and signed up for unemployment in Muskegon (1:06:23:00)
 Took a trip out east (1:06:33:00)
o Although he still got unemployment benefits, which supported the trip, he stayed
at YMCA’s, slept outside, and slept in his car (1:06:37:00)
o He did not care much and visited a couple of guys he met at Fort Dix
(1:06:48:00)
 When he was at Fort Dix, they could take a bus to New York City for the weekend and
the USO in NYC would give them a number and tell them to come back later to know
what event would be available (1:07:04:00)
o Sibley saw a Broadway play, the Giants play, Al Hirt at Carnegie Hall and the
Brooklyn Ballet, all cultural things that he never would have seen (1:07:30:00)
o USO had a place to stay that was cheap, because he had little pay, only $90, but in
NYC, he could have fun without needed a lot of money (1:07:45:00)
 His old buddies were going through their situations of avoiding the draft and he could not
talk with them about his experiences because of that (1:08:23:00)
o However, he does not remember having conflict about the differences and he
never resented anybody for not going to Vietnam and he was happy for Carter and
his amnesty program (1:08:47:00)
 Did not have animosity towards the people who did not go or to the Vietnamese; in fact,
he had sympathy for their situation (1:09:06:00)
 Never experienced negative responses while going around in uniform mainly because he
never went around in his uniform; when he went off-base, he wore civilian clothes,
although one time, when he was flying home for leave and sitting in coach on the plane,
the stewardess must have noticed his haircut because she came up and told him to come
up and sit in First Class (1:09:38:00)
 Was in line in the employment bureau and they offered him a job because he had worked
there for a couple of months before being drafted and when he asked if he had to take the
job, they said that if he did not take the job, then he would not get unemployment benefits
(1:10:41:00)
 Eventually, using his degree, he applied to the Department of Social Services, where he
was hired and an eligibility examiner doing interviews of people applying for public
assistance, but having a case load of 180 was not his idea of social work (1:11:32:00)
 Had an opportunity and applied for grad school, focusing on social work because he still
wanted to help people, and was surprised when he was accepted to the University of
Michigan, where he received a master’s degree in social work (1:11:56:00)
 When he got out of U-of-M, he had a couple of job opportunities and he took job at the
Kent County Juvenile Court as a probation officer, where he worked for twenty-eight
years before retirement (1:12:20:00)
 He started getting involved in the Vietnam issue again in the early 1990s (1:13:09:00)

�









o He had forgot about much of it for years but he would be interested if there was
an article or a movie about Vietnam, but never involved in anything (1:13:16:00)
o Eventually, he saw in the paper that there was a group doing a Christmas party for
some Vietnamese refugees coming to the United States and he contacted the
group, a Vietnam veterans' group in Monroe County, Michigan, that was involved
with helping Vietnam refugees (1:13:30:00)
o Joined the local VVA chapter, which was not involved with helping the refugees,
although one day, someone from Bethany Christian Services came in while Sibley
was working and they offered for Sibley to take in a couple of unaccompanied
Amerasian minors (1:14:06:00)
 Sibley was single at the time and he liked his freedom so he declined and
Bethany Christian Services said that they had some older kids that did not
need a lot of mothering and were independent and Sibley ended up having
a 17 year old live with him for a year (1:14:46:00)
o Started more getting involved and it went from there, including asking his church
to sponsor a family in helping refugees through a program that involved
Vietnamese proving they had been in reeducation camps for more than 5 years
(1:15:25:00)
o As well, he became involved in VVA and tried bringing together the leaders of
the refugee program and the VVA (1:15:55:00)
In 1995, went back to Vietnam when he saw in the paper that they were offering the
opportunity for veterans to go back with international aid and to involved veterans in
service projects to reconnect in Vietnam and he has traveled back to Vietnam several
times since (1:16:29:00)
Eventually got involved with another family through Bethany Christian Services, as well
as a woman in a came in Kuala Lumpur, whom he visited in 1995 and wrote letters to and
who eventually came to the United States (1:17:04:00)
His interaction was with the guys he was serving with and he does not remember having
conflicts with individual people and although out in the field, there were some groups,
including a black power movement, there were not large groups of minorities in his unit
and whoever was a minority was just part of the group and everybody hung together
(1:18:17:00)
Experience of going back to Vietnam with the civilians was positive because they had the
ability to say that it was in the past and to move on (1:19:40:00)
Economically, after the United States let, the country was devastated because there was a
way of life that feed on the money that was coming in from the war and when the United
States left, not only was there conflict between the North and the South, but there was
also economic problems (1:19:57:00)
o People’s energies went into surviving rather than looking back and he did not
sense the feeling the American’s were the bad guys from the Vietnamese and they
did not want the American’s there (1:20:44:00)
They never visited the area where he had been in; instead, they went mostly along the
coast from Hanoi to Hue to Da Nang to Ho Chi Minh City (1:21:26:00)
o One of the other men met somebody who was involved in a fight in which the
man was shot (1:21:45:00)
o He has met Vietnamese in the United States who had been in Pleiku (1:22:04:00)

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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Tom Sibley was born in 1945 in Muskegon, Michigan.  After college, he applied for the Peace Corps and was accepted, but was concerned that he could still be drafted after he got back, and decided not to go. He was drafted in May, 1968, and sent to Vietnam later that year. He served as a mortar crewman in the 4th Infantry Division in the Central Highlands for several months, and then became a company clerk before back problems took him out of the field entirely. He has since returned to Vietnam and been involved with helping Vietnamese refugees in the US.</text>
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&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                  <text>&lt;a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Black and white photograph of a neighborhood street featuring the scene of an accident invovling a parked car and a fallen tree in April 1960. Photograph by Douglas R. Gilbert. Scanned from the negative.</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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&#13;
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&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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