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                    <text>1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mr. George Shelby
Interviewed on September 14, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tapes #3, 4
Biographical Information
George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 5 December 1878, the son of
William Read Shelby and Mary Kennedy Cass. In 1903 George was married to Ann Miller about
1903. George died 31 August 1975 in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids at the age of 96.
Ann Miller was born in November 1882 in Grand Rapids. She was the daughter of John Miller
and Martha Nicholson. Ann died 26 April 1941 in Grand Rapids and both George and Ann are
buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
The father, William Read Shelby was born 4 December 1842 in Lincoln County, Kentucky and
died at his home at 65 Lafayette NE 14 November 1930. The mother of George was Mary
Kennedy Cass, born in Brownsville, Pennsylvania on 22 March 1847. She married William
Shelby on 16 June 1869 in St. Stephen’s Church, Sewickley, Pennsylvania. Mary died in Grand
Rapids on 3 May 1936.
_____________
Interviewer:

How long have you lived in Grand Rapids, Mr. Shelby?

Mr. Shelby: Well, with the exception of about twenty years in California, I was near Fresno
where I had an orange grove with oranges, figs and so forth. I had money saved up and there
was an enterprise in Santa Fe for officers preparing for the retirement days, don’t you know. I
had the several thousand dollars on hand and I bought the land, and there was a colony
[Annandale?], that was named after my wife, and so I moved to California in about, between
nineteen….I can’t remember the exact date either, I lived out there about twenty-five years, and
left there about nineteen forty, came back to Grand Rapids and sold the ranch, and put my wife
in a sanitarium, because the nurses were so kind. Twenty years before she might have died, in
nineteen forty.
Interviewer:
So before nineteen… you were in California for about twenty-five years, so that
means you left Grand Rapids somewhere around nineteen fifteen.
Mr. Shelby: Well, a little later, nineteen twenty-four I think I left then, so the period would be
from about nineteen five to nineteen twenty-four. I was trying to develop this orange grove,
Allendale colony.
Interviewer:

Were you born in Grand Rapids?

Mr. Shelby: Yes, yes, I was born on Fountain Street, the house up on the hill, you know.

�2
Interviewer: What’s the address of that house, do you know? Is that house still standing?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, oh yes it is. Last occupied by Mrs. Booth. Elizabeth Booth. Because it had
many owners in the meantime after we sold it and we moved along to Lafayette—sixty-five
North Lafayette.
Interviewer: Was your father William Shelby?
Mr. Shelby: William R. Shelby, yeah.
Interviewer:

He was involved in railroads, wasn’t he?

Mr. Shelby: He was the vice-president-treasurer of the Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad
Interviewer: What was the Grand Rapids-Indiana railroad ?
Mr. Shelby: It was part of the Michigan Lines of the Pennsylvania Railroad, extending from
Richmond, Indiana to Mackinac Island, about six hundred miles.
Interviewer: Did your father, how did your father happen to come to Grand Rapids?
Mr. Shelby: Well, he moved from Kentucky up to Pittsburgh and then married my mother in
Sewickley, Pennsylvania. My grandfather George W. Cass, who was vice president of the lines
west of Pittsburg, sent him out here to be the head of the G.R. and I Railway, that’s Grand
Rapids-Indiana. And as a boy I was sent out to St. Paul’s which I just went out to this reunion,
my seventy-fifth reunion, and I was leading the procession there.
Interviewer: Are you the only one left from that class?
Mr. Shelby: No, there are two others, but they are incapacitated.
Interviewer: That’s quite a photo.
Mr. Shelby: Well, here’s a little bit better one. This came the other day, yes.
Interviewer: Oh, yes, class from ninety-six—eighteen ninety-six.
Grand Rapids go away to school?

Did many young men in

Mr. Shelby: No, it was rather unusual. Let’s see there, well, there were three or four other
Grand Rapids boys sent to that school: Fred Gorham and Edward Boise, Dr. Boise’s son, he
attended it, too, St. Paul’s in Concord, New Hampshire. It’s a very famous Episcopal school, a
hundred and fifteen years old this year.
Interviewer: Did your family build what is known as the Booth house?

�3
Mr. Shelby: Yes, my grandfather bought those three lots; one on Fountain, and one on the corner
of Lafayette and Fountain and next to it, the three of them. We moved from that one on Fountain
Street to Lafayette see.
Interviewer: Was that your Grandfather Cass?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, my Grandfather George W. Cass, yes.
Interviewer: Was he any relation to Lewis Cass?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, cousin, I think.
Interviewer: What was it like growing up in Grand Rapids, when you grew up here?
Mr. Shelby: Well, it was, it was really interesting in politics in those days. The cities used to
have those torch-light processions that formed, you know, people turned their coats inside out
and marched under a banner, you know, screaming out the candidates’ names, and they used to
circulate around the neighborhood leading this torch-light procession yelling out ”Uhl, Uhl, Uhl,
E.F. Uhl [Edward F. Uhl]; Shelby, Shelby, W.R. Shelby:”
And we youngsters all marched in those processions; the banner and then the torch-light
processions were quite characteristic of politics in those days.
Interviewer:

Where would the processions take place?

Mr. Shelby: Well, in the residential districts. The candidates, like Mr. Ford, there was a fellow
named [Melborne] Ford at that time, was the candidate for Congress I guess or something of that
sort. There was quite a high feeling amongst the Democrats. We were Democrats in those days,
whatever they stood for.
Interviewer: There weren’t many of those around, were there?
Mr.Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: There weren’t very many of those around here, were there, Democrats?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, they was pretty active here. And in the winter time, of course, Fountain Street
was a great street for sliding. Every night in the winter why, it was black with people just sliding
down the hill. Bobs [bobsleds] thirty feet long, you know, and single sleds was riding right
along right in front of us. Naturally I was amongst all the other youths that enjoyed that pleasure.
The only trouble was we were, was for the hacks [cabs] that we used to get in our way a little.
Interviewer:

Wouldn’t [they] close the hill off for traffic then?

Mr. Shelby: Yes, and on holidays especially. On Christmas and New Years, Bridge Street was
the steepest street, that was closed off, policed. The city was young, you know, compared to
what it is now, and very compact. I think the city, you might say, as far as residents were

�4
concerned, ended about Union Avenue, Union Street, you know. Beyond that began the scattered
homes and so on -- the country. Grand Rapids at that time was about sixty thousand people, and
you were really outside of the town then after six or seven blocks going east from Lafayette, you
began to get into country, don’t you know.
Interviewer: What was out there?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, just occasional farms, and residences, things of that sort, brickworks. The
brickyard used to be quite a notable setting out there around Bridge Street and Fountain Street.
That was one of the big brick yards of the city.
Interviewer:

Were there many brickyards in the city at that time?

Mr. Shelby: Oh, just two or three.
Interviewer: That brickyard was out on Fountain Street, beyond Union.
Mr. Shelby: Well, Bridge Street.
Interviewer: Now, that would be on the west side of town then?
Mr. Shelby: No, it would be east side of town.
Interviewer: The only Bridge Street that I know in town is the one on west side, was there
another one?
Mr. Shelby: Well, there’s East Bridge and West Bridge, of course, the river divides the thing.
Interviewer: Then that would be where Michigan Street is today?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right, that’s right.
Interviewer: What were the neighborhoods like at that time in terms of social relationships?
Mr. Shelby: Well, there was pretty much the center, the finest part of the town I’d call it that, the
Hill District.
Interviewer:

Did the families have a lot of interactions together?

Mr. Shelby: Oh, to a certain degree, they were members of the same club, like the President’s
Club, you know or one thing, the Kent Country Club, and we were owners of that, stock in that,
you know, that was the, you know where it is now, the Kent Country Club. It was a private club,
membership club. We had interest in stock, interest in it at that time, don’t you know, used to
entertain out there a good deal.
Interviewer: That’s where most of the socializing went on then?

�5
Mr. Shelby: Well, a large, largely although there was frequently amongst St. Mark’s church was
a center of many occasions at our home. my father was a vestryman in St. Mark’s church, during
those many years and quite a few occasions were held in our home, don’t you know gatherings
two or three hundred people.
Interviewer: Two or three hundred?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, Jandorf used to do all the catering in town, you know.
Interviewer:

What was the name of the company?

Mr. Shelby: Jandorf, he was a caterer, you know, provided the food. He took and moved into a
home with his staff and prepared all the food for the groups.
Interviewer: Using your kitchen then?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes.
Interviewer:

How long would he stay?

Mr.Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: How long would he stay?
Mr. Shelby: How long what?
Interviewer:How long would Jandorf stay? He moved into the home?
Mr. Shelby: Well, his location on Monroe Street, but he would just move in for those occasions,
and provide all the food for the house he took over, don’t you know. It would be too much for a
hired cook and others.
Interviewer: How many people would he have on hand for an occasion like that?
Mr. Shelby: Well, he had maybe ten or twelve people, cooks and waitresses for the meals, and
then they help with everything else.
Interviewer: Was there any dancing at those affairs?
Mr. Shelby: Not particularly, I don’t know, no there wasn’t any dancing.
Interviewer: Not at the church affairs?
Mr. Shelby: No, it wasn’t frowned upon, but there wasn’t any occasion for it, mostly chattering
and visiting.
Interviewer: What affect did the automobile have on society, when the automobile came out?

�6

Mr. Shelby: Very pronounced, very pronounced, I think it scattered people for one thing. They
began to have homes and places other than, you know, cottages to go to, homes at the lake,
resorts. It had a very pronounced affect. Not everybody owned cars, you know.
Interviewer: Do you remember when you saw your first car?
Mr. Shelby: Well, it started during that period and, say nineteen fifteen, twenty, around that, and
then it kept growing in numbers when people bought cars, you know. It had a very pronounced
effect in every way. People circulated a lot more than they did by streetcar. That’s all they had
was streetcars then, in those days. They ended it pretty much ended at the, well going north,
ended at Sweet Street and then took a dummy from that point and, you go out on the streetcar to
Sweet Street and then the dummy carried you to North Park where the street railway had a
building, you know, resort for dancing and parties, and everything else. It was the same way at
Reed’s Lake. You took— on Eastern Avenue, you went to this corral and got aboard the dummy,
and you went two miles out to Reed’s Lake. That time they had a lot of the pavilions you know
and entertainment, picnics, very simple compared with the way it is now. Beer gardens also,
which they frowned upon.
Interviewer: Why?
Mr. Shelby: Well, personally I never liked beer, I liked wine. But anyways we suppose to be, it
was supposed to be looked as a scandal, to be seen over in that beer garden.
Interviewer: The one at Ramona Park?
Mr.Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: The one at Ramona Park?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, that was quite a big one in those days. The more sportier elements in the town
patronized that. But that was a swamp, the entertainment was largely professional at Reed’s
Lake, don’t you know the troupes were brought in and entertainers. So, if you had the time and
the leisure, the desire, well you went to Reed’s Lake. It played a very important part in the life of
the town, and for leisure moments, you know.
Interviewer: The people that lived up on Lafayette and Fountain and that area around where
your family lived were they mostly professional men?
Mr. Shelby: Well, they were largely heads of businesses. There was Mr. Perkins, Gaius Perkins,
the head of the School Furniture Company, they called it at that time. He was living on the
corner of Fountain and Lafayette and then they were all prominent people, prominent in the city,
lawyers, and doctors and railroad officials. It was fairly compact you might say. So we might say
that it set it apart from the balance of the city. That was the fine homes were built within that
area.
Interviewer:

Do you remember the construction of your home on Fountain Street?

�7

Mr. Shelby: Well, just dimly, but I remember playing around it, yes.
Interviewer:
built better?

How about the home, perhaps you could remember the home on Lafayette you

Mr. Shelby: The what?
Interviewer: The home on Lafayette.
Mr. Shelby: Sixty-five Lafayette?
Interviewer: Could you tell me a little about, how were homes constructed in those days?
Mr. Shelby: Well, bricklayers were the great builders of homes in those days. Large, all brick
homes, they’re very spacious and space, space was some families were fairly large with five or
six children, don’t you know, and they wanted big homes, which they had. Lafayette Avenue is
three stories and an attic, which children used to play on that, fourteen feet high, the attic you
know, until it was finished off and then we’d made it into entertainment for dancing, you know,
and you give parties. Of course at that time there were about two professional dancing schools,
which we children were sent to, you know, Gage and Benedict, as I remember the names. I
learned to dance at those places, along with the other bluebloods.
Interviewer: What kind of dancing was there?
Mr. Shelby: Waltz and waltzes and round dancing, do-si-do and you know, those figures I
would think in color. When you, Mr. Gage and Mrs. Benedict were the two teachers, one was a
little runt and the other was a tall woman and they wore costumes. And that, I think Saturday as a
rule was the weekend was the occasion for going to the dancing school, you know.
Interviewer: Saturday afternoon?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, Saturday afternoon.
Interviewer: Did most of the children of the prominent people living in the area go to the
school?
Mr. Shelby: That’s right. That’s right.
Interviewer: Was the business, you’ve been involved in the business community all your life, is
the business of that time, the pace of business and the….
Mr. Shelby: Well, furniture, furniture and railroads I think were the key main activities, so we
had a half dozen of these very large factories making furniture, you know. Nelson-Matter was
very famous throughout the country for fine furniture, and Century and Phoenix and half a dozen
of them. School Furniture, the one I mentioned, you know Mr. Perkins is head of that. So that
was one of the things that kept Grand Rapids growing at that time, the name Furniture City. We

�8
had the skilled designers here, through those years, you know, and then we had the annual
exhibitions, those people come later on from all over the United States and that was once a year.
We were very much on the map.
Interviewer: Have you seen any differences in the way businesses operated in that period
compared to today?
Mr. Shelby: Well, there’s more or less corporations now, the giant corporations. As a rule though
they pretty much, there was the single city in making the furniture, and nothing but furniture. So
we didn’t have very many metal plants here, I remember that, the metal business, there wasn’t
much of that. Mostly furniture, wooden furniture, and we slaughtered all the timber from here to
Mackinac over the years, you know. We wanted a freight with larger furniture. Heavy wood, you
know. Grand Rapids was the furniture capitol of the United States at that time and later on, of
course, Chicago took the wind out of our sails and built the buildings over there and then people
instead of coming here, they went to Chicago.
Interviewer: Do you think that one of the reasons for the furniture industry here was the
accessibility of lumber?
Mr. Shelby: The scarcity of lumber, well it gradually gave out.
Interviewer: I mean, one of the reasons why the furniture industry developed here; was it
because of the availability of lumber?
Mr. Shelby: That would be the main reason, and then we had a large population of Dutch here
that worked in the factories, you know mainly Dutch at those times; and they were skilled men
and they were, that was their activity. We had almost, we had national fame, as well as you
might say abroad, as the Furniture Capitol; the design and execution, production.
Interviewer: Who were some of the lumber men?
Mr. Shelby: Well, Gay was one, Widdicombe, John Widdicombe and Nelson-Matter they called
them. They were very prominent, and later on other men came into Grand Rapids that weren’t
necessarily Grand Rapids people, don’t you know. But it was the main industry for the town for
many, many years.
Interviewer: Did they ever bring logs down to the Grand River?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, there were log jams there at Leonard Street, and Bridge Street, that’s where
a number of them. Baxter’s [history] will show that.
Interviewer: Do you remember seeing any of them?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, I do; they were very visible.
Interviewer: What was it like?

�9
Mr. Shelby: The river was just jammed with logs, and they spilled over the dams, you know.
And, it was almost an annual affair, in the Grand River.
Interviewer: Where would they take the logs out?
Mr. Shelby: Well, up there where the Rowe Hotel is, there’d be, you know where that is. There
was a big dam there, you know. You could see it from the top of our house, the whole river in
front and everywhere, you know. West side was often under water, good share of the west side of
the city.
Interviewer: It was quite frequent then?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, I mean once a year, in the springtime.
Interviewer: What could you see from the top of your house? How much of the city could you
see?
Mr. Shelby: Well, you couldn’t see too much to the east, but you could pretty well to the (wood
pile?), I used to try and sneak and see Lake Michigan, but it wasn’t high enough, you know, you
could look ten or fifteen miles. Oh yes.
Interviewer: Do you think that a project like this is important; do you think it is valuable to go
around and interview people that can remember those past days?
Mr. Shelby: Well, I think that is a very interesting page in the history of the growth of the city,
what causes it, what prevents it and where it reaches its summit, and then it sort of stagnates or
goes downhill, you might say. Other types of this business come in like the metal, we didn’t have
many metal industries as I remember, they decided to change over from wood to metal was
gradual and persistent, and so we do have metal industries here of sizable proportion which we
didn’t have in those days.
Interviewer: Did many of the lumber barons and so on live in the Hill District?
Mr. Shelby: Many of them? Most of them yes, yes, there was well along Fulton street and a
where Mr. Blodgett lived on Cherry Street, yes, Cherry Street, Cherry and Madison, you know,
and Widdicombe’s lived all along up on Fountain Street, just two blocks above us, you know.
Interviewer: How did the lumber people, the lumber men, how did they manage to build their
businesses?
Mr. Shelby: Well, I’d say the distribution of the furniture you mean?
Interviewer: No, how did they manage to get started and get concessions, for example, on land,
for cutting timber?
Mr. Shelby: I don’t remember other than, I couldn’t exactly describe how those started, except
that the lumber was here, and building skill was here, the designers were here, and the money

�10
was here, and so it became, it was a growth over the years, you know. It was the predominating
industry of the city
Interviewer: Why did the Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad come into being? Why would they
have tracks extending from Richmond, Indiana, to the top of Michigan?
Mr. Shelby: Well, that was because there was business to be carried, The Pennsylvania Railroad
felt it thought that there were opportunities to develop and get bigger, incentive in itself, but
they were here because it was a natural location for them, nature furnished that, and so they
centered here, don’t you see, and until later on, of course, and then part of their tonnage was
agriculture, as a farm produced different crops, lumber was the principle commodity for many
years, heavy commodity, don’t you know. I think the railroad has pretty well dominated the city
for many years, with furniture, what they carried.
Interviewer: Then your father must have been quite an important man?
Mr. Shelby: He was.-About the head of everything you could think of. He took a great interest in
the development of the city, he was a member of the board of Public Works, and he used to ride
around in a hack, asking questions you know, seeing how things were going, that was a month or
twice a month, that would occur don’t you know in the summer’s duration. Undoubtedly, his
activities were important to the city in that time. He was a director of the Old National Bank, the
old hostel, well, I guess we were the biggest customer there at the bank, the National Bank,
became the [Old] Kent later on. I have a very good copy of the paper of my father’s and
mother’s, and so on and so forth, grandfather, up to the house. Haven’t got it here, but I don’t
know whether that would be interesting or not, Grant Schultz takes care of it.
Interviewer: I’d like to see it sometime.
Mr. Shelby: Yes, well, it’s right there.
Interviewer: Did you go away to college? Did you go away to school, to college?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, I went to St. Paul’s School, it’s Prep School in Yale.
Interviewer: Did some of the other families send their young men off to school?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, they did.
Interviewer: Where did they go to college?
Mr. Shelby: Well, some to Ann Arbor. I had one brother that went to Ann Arbor, one brother’s
at Lehigh, because he was an engineer, and I went to Yale, I was of no particular bent, myself,
just classics and languages and general education, you know.
Interviewer: Did you return to Grand Rapids after college?
Mr. Shelby: I came back here, yes,

�11

Interviewer: What business did you go into then?
Mr. Shelby: In the railroad. I worked in the treasury department. I was made assistant treasurer,
assistant to the treasurer or whatever you want to call it. I found the work in subsequent years a
little tedious and I got interested in California. I had the money, and I needed the break.
[Side 2]
Interviewer: What was this investment house in town? That you worked for, was that located,
did it have an office here in Grand Rapids?
Mr. Shelby: The what?
Interviewer: That investment house?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, no, they was national in Boston, New York, Chicago, those are the most
prominent things…
Interviewer: Well, where were you located with that company?
Mr. Shelby: Here.
Interviewer: In Grand Rapids?
Mr. Shelby: Right.
Interviewer:

What happened to the company?

Mr. Shelby: Well, I told you, Ivar Kreuger ruined the company by match-scandals…
Interviewer: Could you tell me a little about that? What happened, and how it happened?
Mr. Shelby: Well, it’s something, he committed suicide. He dealt on the New York-Chicago
when this happened, there was panic in Chicago. I happened to go there that very night and there
was panic throughout the exchanges when that occurred.
Interviewer: What year was that?
Mr. Shelby: It was in, I can’t be accurate about that, now. I’d have to look it up.
Interviewer: Was panic the…
Mr. Shelby: It was the stock exchange. It was, you know Ivar Kreuger. We’ve got plenty of
sources that have written into that.
Interviewer: What did, did that have an effect on Grand Rapids?

�12
Mr. Shelby: Well, not exactly, no, I wouldn’t say that, although it did have an affect all over the
United States, in the financial world. Quite a great affect. He was known as the Swedish match
king.
Interviewer: I’ve heard of him.
Mr. Shelby: No, you don’t hear of them now, you know. I think ,as a matter of fact, I think one
of his activities was making these, what do you call them, these university out east, you know,
varsity-like these big football places and baseball places, you know.
Interviewer: What do you mean stadiums?
Mr. Shelby: Stadiums, yes. He was a brilliant, brilliant man in his day. That disaster ended him.
It shattered a lot of people at that time. I was selling insurance stocks; someone came to me and
thought I was a good material to sell insurance stocks, which I did. And then later when the
Henry Higginson for Mr. Whitmer, was a prominent man in those days. You know I was
associated with him and represented Henry Higginson. I made sales and often I would score in
New York and so forth.
Interviewer: What are some of the more memorable experiences of your youth in Grand Rapids?
What are some of the things you remember most clearly?
Mr. Shelby: Well, going to the circus was one of the things as a child, and the kind of got the
city grew must have had one occasion when the city determined to pave Canal Street. Which was
then nothing but dirt, you know. So Canal Street was paved, as a single operation, brand new to
the city, don’t you know, and the whole town turned out at that time and went down and danced
on Monroe Street, along Canal Street, they called it.
Interviewer: What was it paved with?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: What was it paved with?
Mr. Shelby: Pavement, you know, concrete. That was the first time that it ever had happened to
the city? We had wooden sidewalks, you know on Monroe Street, wooden sidewalks. Concrete
was just coming in, so they were gradually replaced. You know, right ahead on Monroe Street
there was wooden sidewalks and one place I remember in particular the dairy there the milk was
spilled over the sidewalks and the sun would make it stink, you know. Pretty loud smelling, so
that, as the years went on that was the place for concrete.
Interviewer: Why was the circus memorable?
Mr. Shelby: Well, that was the chief public entertainment. Barnum &amp; Bailey, and the half of a
dozen of those, some local, but Barnum &amp; Bailey was the big organization and that was that. We

�13
also made a big deal over the Fourth of July that, we saved up our money and bought
firecrackers and bombs, and pretty well turned the town upside down on the Fourth of July.
Interviewer: How would the circus come to town in those days?
Mr. Shelby: Well, they had their own wagons, the railroads transported them; they had them
these big lots. There were several lots devoted to holding the circus, and of course in the morning
what they would do is have a parade through the downtown section.
Interviewer: Was that quite a big event?
Mr. Shelby: Was for us; that was enormous.
Interviewer: Circus Wagons…
Mr. Shelby: Sounds rather primitive now to you, I guess, but it was for me entertainment then,
for youngsters, you know, otherwise we made our own fun. Walking on stilts - I used to have
stilts, with blocks that high, you know. The gang would go over on Saturday afternoon [and
maybe along the D and M tracks,] go out and kill frogs; that was a big pursuit is frog legs. You
see, it was all very simple.
Interviewer: That sounds different to me, different age…
Mr. Shelby: Sure.
Interviewer: Do you think there was any one particular event that kind of ended that age?
Mr. Shelby: No, it was gradual. I think one, I think later on the success of the movies they had a
pronounced effect on people’s habits and thoughts and interests.
Interviewer: How so?
Mr. Shelby: Well, it was a new idea, don’t you know, in entertainment. Then theatres begun to
be built, and people formed the habit of going to see these clever actors. The theatre was, the
Powers’ Theatre of course was the fore runner of that and most prominent actors would come to
Grand Rapids during the season and this is, we were all interested in that— good plays. That
would be a cultural thing, I presume, you could call it that, entertainment. And then later on the
movies, of course, was the enormous influence on people’s habits, because they were perfected
and more enjoyable.
Interviewer: Was opening night at the Powers’ Theatre, when a new act would come to town a
big event? The opening night?
Mr. Shelby: Well, I imagine yes, the actors did have an unusual prominence in those days in the
entertainment field. It just wasn’t very much other than as a competitor, don’t you know? There
was people interested in plays and their presentation and their skill and ability and entertainment

�14
ability of the actors was very succeeding and greatness to be up there and play: All of us, if there
was any interest at all.
Interviewer: Did any actors come and visit you at your house?
Mr. Shelby: No, no, we never had any. No, I wasn’t that intimate with them, but we were
exceedingly interested in their playing and their ability.
Interviewer: That’s a little different from today; almost everything in that way in entertainment
is the movies?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, it is vastly different. It was more of course, it was the only people in the upper
brackets would sustain the theatre in those days, compared with today. It used to cost money to
go to the theatre, don’t you know? And Powers’ Opera House was the very center, and they had
a second-grade Redmond’s Grand Opera House on the corner of Monroe, and they were cheaper
things, you know, these opera companies, they called themselves, just singing and acting, and
that was during the summer, that was quite a feature of the city. And we had a very low-down
place as you were, you weren’t supposed to look at…
Interviewer: Where was that?
Mr. Shelby: Smith’s, that was a block off of Monroe…you weren’t even supposed to glance that
way. That was a, you know…
Interviewer:

Did you ever go there?

Mr. Shelby: No.
Interviewer:

You never did?

Mr. Shelby: No, I didn’t have the occasion to be ruined; never more than looked at it, I guess.
Moving shipees they called them then. Of course the morals of the town then were pretty open,
they were, oh, whole districts of houses you know, there was a, oh, lower part of the town now
along the river, you know.
Interviewer:

Is that right?

Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, houses, public houses of prostitution.
Interviewer:

Were they tolerated by the police?

Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, there were a number of them, you know, yup, that’s where they got rid of
their excess energy.
Interviewer: That’s interesting.

�15
Mr. Shelby: It was unmentionable part of the town, don’t you know? The characteristic of all the
countries at that time.
Interviewer: You know, you never read that in history books?
Mr. Shelby: No, you….
Interviewer: Baxter never mentioned it.
Mr. Shelby: No, no I guess that’s one of the things they ignore. As refinement came about that
was put to one side.
Interviewer:

How do you mean refinement?

Mr. Shelby: Well. I mean refinement in place, in the public; rough and ready stuff was all out;
people became more cultured, more choosy. They weren’t necessarily aristocrats, but they were
supposed to be a cut above the common herd.
Interviewer: What caused that, what would cause the change in…?
Mr. Shelby: Attitude of the public?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Shelby: Oh, I don’t know, just a gradual interest in better things of life, more enduring
things, less animalism, more intellectual pleasures, so on and so forth. Things that wouldn’t
interest you anymore because they were too rough and ready, and too crude. It was the growth of
refinement, which was common in America. It was changing; things that were once very popular
gradually lose their force. Other things were adopted, people generally had broader life. They
began to circulate more and form more interest in sports, you might say, tennis, and golf later. I
remember the whole growth of golf, when it first came here I remember Yale, a very famous
Scotsman came over and we watched his performance and then on why the growth of golf kept
growing and growing. I never took it up, I don’t care for it myself, I liked tennis. But it did, it
became a sport that was adopted from Scotland, wasn’t it? But baseball of course was and it still
is the chief passion of American sport’s world. Baseball, football.
Interviewer:

Was there any tennis clubs here in town where you could play?

Mr. Shelby: Yes, quite a number of them.
Interviewer: Were there?
Mr. Shelby: There was a Cardinal Mark with a basketball.
Interviewer:

Where was some of those Clubs located?

�16
Mr. Shelby: Well, let’s see there, up there around the Hollister family had several courts up
there they allowed you to used by those who played tennis and elsewhere, like the Kent Country
Club offered them. Other Clubs….
Interviewer:

Where did the Hollisters live?

Mr. Shelby: Where did the Hollisters live?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Shelby: Up on, between Fountain and Fulton, they were very prominent people here. Head
of the bank, head of the Old National Bank, and leaders in Grand Rapids, the Hollister family.
Interviewer: Well, I think that’s enough. If I think of anything else I’ll come down and talk to
you again alright?
Mr. Shelby: Alright
[PAUSES THEN CONTINUES]
Mr. Shelby: But I was born in the Booth house on Fountain Street, that’s where I was born, well,
that was my grandpa that bought these three lots and then my father built the one on Lafayette
and Mr. Wallen, my uncle built the one on Fountain and Lafayette. The Booth house it was later
occupied by a number of different people over the years, five or six, would you believe. In fact it
was the Saints Rest Club that one time when bachelors, five or six prominent men lived there in
the house on Fountain Street, many years after we sold it. It had a ballroom, you know, a
beautiful ballroom upstairs, it’s just as substantial as the day it was built.
Interviewer: That’s the house on Lafayette?
Mr. Shelby: All of them
Interviewer: All three.
Mr. Shelby: The same characteristics.
Interviewer:

Why did you sell the homes?

Mr. Shelby: Why did I sell them? I had to settle the estate. Unfortunately, there was no price for
real estate at that time. I only got five thousand dollars and I was asking seventy thousand for it.
Interviewer:

When was it that you had settled the estate?

Mr. Shelby: Oh, gosh, I don’t know, I’d have to look it up.
Interviewer: One of those houses has three apartments out of your one bedroom? You got it
partitioned into three different rooms?

�17

Mr. Shelby: No, it was one room, my bedroom.
Interviewer:

And what’s it like today?

Mr. Shelby: What?
Interviewer:

What’s it like today? They partitioned your bedroom?

Mr. Shelby: Yes
Interviewer: They made three rooms out of your one room.
Mr. Shelby: That’s right, well three pretty big rooms though. Well, for instance, from the end of
the dining room to the end of the library was about eighty feet, down on the first floor cause the
dining room was about thirty-five feet long, the library, the living room was equal with that, then
the hall there in front was very big, that; then the maid’s room off of that, the dining room. A big
house; big.
Mr. Shelby: Where did you want to put this stuff?
Interviewer:

Well, what we’re thinking of…

[END OF TAPE]

INDEX

B

G

Barnum &amp; Bailey · 12
Benedict, Mrs. · 7
Blodgett, Mr. · 9
Boise, Dr. · 2
Boise, Edward · 2
Booth · 2
Booth, Mrs. · 2

Gage and Benedict · 7
Gage, Mr. · 7
Gay, Mr. · 8
Gorham, Fred · 2
Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad · 2, 10

H
C

Hollister family · 16

Cass, George W. · 2, 3
Cass, Lewis · 3
Century Furniture Company · 7

J
Jandorf · 5

F
Ford, Melborne · 3

K
Kent Country Club · 4, 16

�18
Kreuger, Ivar · 11

N

Redmond’s Grand Opera House · 14
Rowe Hotel · 9

S

Nelson-Matter · 7, 8

Old Kent Bank · 10
Old National Bank · 10, 16

Saints Rest Club · 16
School Furniture Company · 6, 7
Schultz, Grant · 10
Shelby, W.R. · 3
Shelby, William R. · 2
St. Mark’s church · 5

P

U

Pennsylvania Railroad · 2, 10
Perkins, Gaius · 6
Perkins, Mr. · 7
Phoenix Furniture Company · 7
Powers’ Opera House · 14
Powers’ Theatre · 13
President’s Club · 4

Uhl, Edward F. · 3

O

R
Ramona Park · 6

W
Wallen, Mr. · 16
Whitmer, Mr. · 12
Widdicombe family · 9
Widdicombe, John · 8

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Grand Valley State University Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mr. George Shelby
Interviewed on January 16, 1975
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #46 (1:25:23)
Biographical Information
George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 5 December 1878, the son of
William Read Shelby and Mary Kennedy Cass. In 1903 George was married to Ann Miller about
1903. George died 31 August 1975 in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids at the age of 96.
Ann Miller was born in November 1882 in Grand Rapids. She was the daughter of John Miller
and Martha Nicholson. Ann died 26 April 1941 in Grand Rapids and both George and Ann are
buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
The father, William Read Shelby was born 4 December 1842 in Lincoln County, Kentucky and
died at his home at 65 Lafayette NE 14 November 1930. The mother of George was Mary
Kennedy Cass, born in Brownsville, Pennsylvania on 22 March 1847. She married William
Shelby on 16 June 1869 in St. Stephen’s Church, Sewickley, Pennsylvania. Mary died in Grand
Rapids on 3 May 1936.
_____________

Interviewer: This recording is being made the afternoon of Friday or no, excuse me, it’s
Thursday, Thursday, January the sixteen, nineteen seventy-five, at the residence of Mr. George
Shelby, a house at two nineteen Youell, spelled Y-O-U-E-L-L, Street, Southeast, in Grand
Rapids, Michigan. A, Mr. Shelby is, how old are you Mr. Shelby?
Mr. Shelby: Ninety-six.
Interviewer: You’re ninety-six years old.
Mr. Shelby: December fifth.
Interviewer: You’ve just passed your ninety-sixth birthday.
Mr. Shelby: December the fifth.
Interviewer: December the fifth?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah.
Interviewer: I see. You were born in Grand Rapids?
Mr. Shelby: Yes.

�2

Interviewer: I see. Do you remember, what were you, do you have any very early memories of,
you know, what did you…
Mr. Shelby: About Nursery you mean?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Shelby: I think I went to Miss Reed’s Kindergarten. I remember that very well. It was up on
the, on the north, Lafayette and Lyon Street, just beyond Lyon Street. I attended that. And also, a
little place down there where that triangle where State and Portland…
Interviewer: I know where.
Mr. Shelby: Good.
Interviewer: State and a…
Mr. Shelby: Miss Reed’s.
Interviewer: And Washington, maybe?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, Washington. I attended kindergarten there. I mean, yes I was a pupil.
Interviewer: Was Miss Reed at both locations?
Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t remember the name of the kindergarten down there on State Street.
Interviewer: I see. I want to turn it off and just make sure we’re recording right. Tell us about
your experience at Miss Reed’s.
Mr. Shelby: Well we were largely engaged in, making, recording maps of some sort, it was
papery---weaving, making it into mats and designs of one kind or another. We thought were very
good, very pretty.
Interviewer: Like a mat of some sort?
Mr. Shelby: We were commended for our stability.
Interviewer: About how old were you then?
Mr. Shelby: Oh I probably was, I don’t know whether I was three or four or five.
Interviewer: Somewhere in there?
Mr. Shelby: In infancy; I was surely an infant.
Interviewer: Do you remember any other of the children that went there with you?

�3

Mr. Shelby: Well I think Guy Widdicombe.
Interviewer: Guy Widdicombe.
Mr. Shelby: At State Street location.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Shelby: I think he was sent there too.
Interviewer: That’s John Widdicombe’s father.
Mr. Shelby: John, that’s right.
Interviewer: Do you remember any other children in that—
Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. No, I don’t remember any other children.
Interviewer: I see. How many children do you suppose were in the school?
Mr. Shelby: Oh I think seven or eight.
Interviewer: Where did you go after that?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, I think Fountain Street School.
Interviewer: Where was that located Mr. Shelby?
Mr. Shelby: On Fountain Street and, Prospect is it?
Interviewer: Uh huh.
Mr. Shelby: Fountain Street School.
Interviewer: They moved it later on as I recall.
Mr. Shelby: Yes. Fountain Street School I attended.
Interviewer: How long were you there?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, then I moved over to Lyon Street where they, where the school is there, don’t
you know?
Interviewer: Oh yes, Central Grammar School. Is that what you call it?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, Grammar School. It’s right by where the doctor used to live, right across the
corner from a, very prominent doctor lived there. What is his name?
Interviewer: Dr. Campbell? No, no.

�4

Mr. Shelby: No. Campbell was…
Interviewer: This man lived across from the school?
Mr. Shelby: Yes. He’s, his house is still there. He was one of our prominent surgeons at the time.
Interviewer: Dr. Shephard.
Mr. Shelby: No, it wasn’t Shephard.
(A lady speaks in background)
Mr. Shelby: Shephard lived, Shephard lived down, Shephard lived down on, Jefferson. Don’t
you know where that restaurant is? The Dunham House was right next to the Shephards.
Interviewer: The Holly house, oh yes, I see. We don’t, can’t remember the name of that doctor.
Mr. Shelby: Famous doctor, a prominent surgeon in Grand Rapids at that time. He was right at
the corner of Lyon and, Barclay, is it? His house is there now.
Woman: Well, Dr. Smith, Dr. Smith’s father, Dr. Richard Smith…
Mr. Shelby: No, I can’t think of his name.
Interviewer: Maybe, maybe it’ll come back.
Mr. Shelby: One of the, one of the most prominent physicians or surgeons in the city.
Woman: I thought a, Dr. Richard Smith, haven’t you mentioned his brother?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Woman: Dr. Richard Smith?
Mr. Shelby: No, no none of that element, that’s all later.
Woman: No?
Interviewer: Yes, oh yes. Were you living on Fountain Street or Lafayette at that time?
Mr. Shelby: On Lafayette.
Interviewer: On Lafayette.
Mr. Shelby: We’ve sold that house, quite a number of people bought it, the man with the
Alabasking company lived there for a while. I can’t remember his name. The Alabasking
Company?
Interviewer: Yes, I remember, yes.

�5

Mr. Shelby: And then there was a club there of bachelors, and Fox was one of them, the Fox
brothers, Charles Fox?
Interviewer: Yes, on Crofton.
Mr. Shelby: On Crofton. And then one or two others. One tall man, named Cook, he was about
seven feet high. I know I used to watch him, you’d measure his height with a lamppost. What
was his name now? Berguin.
Interviewer: Berguin?
Mr. Shelby: Berguin. He was seven feet two. And as he passed the lamppost his head was even
with that. Berguin.
Interviewer: About what year would that have been? Before the turn of the century?
Mr. Shelby: It would, let’s see, eighteen eighty, eighteen ninety. It would be about seventy-eight,
eighty. It was in the eighties.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: Eighteen eighty, around that neighborhood.
Interviewer: What year do you think you moved to sixty-five Lafayette, Northeast?
Mr. Shelby: I can’t remember exactly.
Woman: How big were you?
Mr. Shelby: In eighty eighteen (?). I was born in that house on Fountain Street.
Interviewer: I see, you really were.
Mr. Shelby: That was, Mrs. Booth asked me, do you remember that, this bedroom? She said. I
said, Hardly Mrs. Booth, this is where I was born. That was also the Saint’s Rest Club, they
called it.
Interviewer: They called it the Saint’s Rest Club. I think I remember hearing about that.
Mr. Shelby: That was, those were those bachelors.
Interviewer: But they weren’t saints.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah?
Interviewer: Did they have a staff that took care of them?
Mr. Shelby: I, they had a cook and maids, that’s all. Then later…

�6

Woman: How old were you?
Mr. Shelby:..they built the castle.
Interviewer: The Foxes, the Foxes?
Mr. Shelby: How old was I at that time?
Woman: When you moved around the corner?
Woman: Were you in school?
Mr. Shelby: Oh I don’t know precisely.
Mr. Shelby: Maybe seven or eight. I don’t remember elementary school precisely. I don’t
remember exactly when Father, when we moved to Lafayette Avenue. And my aunt, see that
property was bought by my grandfather for my father and mother.
Interviewer: Your grandfather, grandfather Cass?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, Grandfather Cass, George W. Cass, of New York. He at that time was a
railroad president for the Pennsylvania from Pittsburg you see. And he bought the corner house
and, for his son-in-law, Mr. Whalen, Henry D. Whalen. My Aunt Augustin, they lived there, on
the corner house. That’s the one that --- is living in now. Then that was subsequently oh three,
many people owned it other than that, the Rosenthal family moved in from Rochester. The
clothing people. The tower clothing company, you know? Where the big clock is?
Interviewer: Oh yes, yes, Rosenthal.
Mr. Shelby: They lived there for quite a while, the Rosenthals.
Interviewer: Tower Clock building is the building where Woolworths is now.
Mr. Shelby: Where Woolworths is, yeah. That was one of the most prominent buildings in town.
Interviewer: Let me just go on to another subject for the moment. I know that you went to St.
Paul’s School in Concord, New Hampshire, that’s correct?
Mr. Shelby: That is right. I had two brothers ahead of me, my brother Cass, the oldest, and then
my brother Walter.
Interviewer: They both went to St. Paul’s?
Mr. Shelby: To St. Paul’s.
Interviewer: What, how old were you when you went to St. Paul’s?

�7

Mr. Shelby: I think I was about eleven or somewhere around there.
Interviewer: Really, that young? So you must have stayed there quite a long time.
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, I was young. Because I won a race there, there’s the cup.
Interviewer: Is there a date on that cup?
Mr. Shelby: That was about…
Woman: He said he was a very lonesome little boy.
Mr. Shelby: Cross-Country cup.
Woman: He’s been back many times at his reunions and all.
Interviewer: Yes, I know. Let me see if I can read it. It’s a pretty cup.
Woman: It is.
Mr. Shelby: Eighteen ninety-four, is it? St. Paul’s School.
Interviewer: Well then you would have been about sixteen at that time?
Woman: That was just before he went to --Mr. Shelby: Can you read that?
Interviewer: I’ll try, let’s see.
Woman: He went when he was about eleven.
Mr. Shelby: That was a common, like at Oxford and Cambridge and English schools, there were
copies of, the rector was a great admirer of England you know and English schools, so St. Paul’s
was modeled after them.
Interviewer: It says Easter, eighteen ninety-four here. And then it says, lower school.
Mr. Shelby: The lower school was for the boys, only twelve and thirteen years old, it’s a, yeah.
Interviewer: Well then it says, aaron hollenzs/hounds (?)
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that’s a typical English custom in school.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: Cross Country running.
Interviewer: Do you remember the name of the headmaster?

�8

Mr. Shelby: Aaron Hollenzs/Hounds you mean?
Interviewer: No, the headmaster of Saint Paul’s.
Mr. Shelby: Dr. Coit.
Interviewer: Dr. Coit.
Mr. Shelby: Henry Coit.
Interviewer: Henry Coit.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was he there for quite a long time?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, he lived there and died there.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: About seventy-five. He had two brothers, Dr. Milner Coit who was a doctor, and
one other one that was a clergyman too. It was very much of a church school, Episcopal Church
school, modeled after English schools you know.
Interviewer: What was your class at Yale?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: What was your class at Yale?
Mr. Shelby: Nineteen hundred.
Interviewer: Nineteen hundred.
Mr. Shelby: It was when I graduated.
Interviewer: Uh-huh.
Mr. Shelby: eighteen ninety-six to nineteen hundred.
Interviewer: So you went four years?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, four years.
Interviewer: Did you like Yale?
Mr. Shelby: Did I like it?
Interviewer: Yes.

�9

Mr. Shelby: Yes, but I had a good time towards the last.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: I was, not too brilliant. I was just an ordinary pupil, don’t you know?
Interviewer: Did you go back to your most recent reunion or?
Woman: Yes.
Mr. Shelby: I have been, yes. I have been, I guess maybe, how many years ago was it?
Woman: Nineteen seventy.
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Woman: You’ve been to every one for the last five years.
Interviewer: Nineteen seventy.
Woman: For about the last twenty years now. And quite a few before that.
Interviewer: That would have been your seventieth reunion, right?
Mr. Shelby: There’s no point in going back now because there’s nobody living but myself and
Harry Wells, and he’s so lame he can’t navigate.
Woman: Last time they sat
Interviewer: Of course.
Mr. Shelby: I think there’s about forty boys in my class, the class of nineteen hundred.
Interviewer: Nineteen hundred.
Mr. Shelby: Started in at that number, I think about thirty graduated I would think.
Interviewer: Did you stay most of the time in New Haven or did you go to New York on
weekends or what did you?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, occasionally. They frowned on that sort of thing.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: They rather discouraged your leaving New Haven. I mean, other things being equal.
You weren’t a prisoner, but the less you done ---, the more they were pleased.
Woman: It’s different now I think.

�10

Interviewer: I just wanted to ask you, going back to earlier days in Grand Rapids, I believe
you’re a member of Saint Mark’s, correct?
Mr. Shelby: Yes.
Interviewer: Were you baptized in that church?
Mr. Shelby: Yes.
Interviewer: In those days did families have their own pews?
Mr. Shelby: Yes. Pew 93.
Interviewer: Pew 93.
Mr. Shelby: Yes. Still have it.
Interviewer: Did you have to pay an annual rental in those days?
Mr. Shelby: Yes.
Interviewer: Do you know what it was?
Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. My father took care of that.
Interviewer: Well I remember it was customary in those days…
Mr. Shelby: He was a vestrament (?) they called him. --Interviewer: Wasn’t he senior warden also?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, senior warden, yes.
Interviewer: Well now to go back again to your, to Grand Rapids, what did you, when you were
a young person, what did you do for a social life in Grand Rapids?
Mr. Shelby: We went to barn dances and dances, dancing school. Gage and Benedick’s Dancing
School.
Interviewer: Gage and Benedick’s.Yeah, where was that?
Mr. Shelby: Miss Gage and Miss Benedick. -----and they were giving the hell to these arm wrists
(?), they call them arm wrists the local cooks those arm wrists
Interviewer: Yes.

�11

Mr. Shelby: I think there’s one right, one was located about – opposite of Michigan on Ionia
Street, where Michigan National Bank is right across the street or where Central Bank is, I think
there’s an armory there. And later on, the St. Cecilia.
Interviewer: Later on St. Cecilia. We’re going to talk about winter sports, what did you do in the
winter?
Mr. Shelby: Skating largely; sliding down Fountain Street.
Woman: And Michigan.
Mr. Shelby: That hill was black with sleds. We got so angry with the hacks, they’d get in the way
you know, they were not supposed to be, a whole bunch of hacks lined up at the Morton House,
outside the Morton House.
Interviewer: Would they start right up at Lafayette?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah.
Interviewer: And how far down would they go?
Mr. Shelby: To Division Street.
Interviewer: All the way to Division?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Depended upon the condition of the slide, of the board. There’d by thirty
people.
Ed Earl had a bob, bobs you know, thirty-foot bobs.
Interviewer: That’s Mr. Edward Earl?
Mr. Shelby: Edward Earl, the corner of Fountain and Lafayette. It was Ed, Ed, the youngest one,
not Fred, not the father. He had a thirty foot bob ----. Thirty boys and girls. It was a pretty
swift…
Interviewer: I’ll bet it was.
Mr. Shelby: We’d, it was so slippery, that they had to put sand on the, down where the Union
Bank is, the foot of the street, so you wouldn’t turn into Monroe. That was some slide.
Interviewer: Was there sliding on that hill too?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. The dam, the reservoir, dangerous you know. Sure.
Interviewer: Were there other hills?

�12

Mr. Shelby: New Year’s Day the city had Mid Street, the streets were blocked off, and the hill
was given to sliding.
Interviewer: You’re talking about what we now call Michigan Street?
Mr. Shelby: Yes.
Interviewer: Where did you start? At the top or?
Mr. Shelby: Right on, well about, I’d think Barclay about, seems I remember.
Interviewer: Barclay, yeah. And how far down did they go?
Mr. Shelby: They’d go down to where the hotel is.
Interviewer: All the way to Monroe.
Mr. Shelby: They’d put sand out to stop them. Those went down at a terrible pace; thirty people
on those bobs you know. I wouldn’t say a mile a minute but, you know, seemed like it. They say
forty miles an hour or something like that.
Interviewer: I wouldn’t be surprised. Where did you do your skating?
Mr. Shelby: At Reed’s Lake.
Interviewer: Reed’s Lake. Was there a place out there where you could warm up?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, there was. I’ve forgotten the name of the man that ran it. Yeah. It’s right where
the Lakeside Club was later built.
Interviewer: Let’s see now. Going back to social life again, were there any clubs for younger
people, for younger men?
Mr. Shelby: Saints Rest, you see I’m trying to think of…
Woman: Something on the River that you spoke of--Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, Boat and Canoe Club; I belonged to that up at North Park.
Interviewer: Do you remember some of the other people who were active in that?
Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. I don’t remember. It was quite a big club. It was located right before
you get on the bridge, crossing the river, that was the headquarters.
Interviewer: Would that be Ann Street perhaps today?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?

�13

Interviewer: That would be Ann Street today?
Mr. Shelby: Possibly, I don’t remember. I wouldn’t want to say definitely. It’s right as you start
across onto the bridge to cross the river.
Interviewer: I know that in the old days the most common form of transportation was, well,
street cars.
Mr. Shelby: Well, but the dummies…
Interviewer: But now that brings up a question: What was the dummy line or the dummy?
Mr. Shelby: It was a, some sort of an engine, that pulled a so open car, where you sat, seats
across seats you know.
Interviewer: Was it a stream engine?
Mr. Shelby: I think so yes.
Interviewer: In other words, did the streetcar stop at a certain place and then you got into another
kind of a vehicle?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Same way at Reed’s Lake.
Interviewer: Where did you change to get on the dummy there?
Mr. Shelby: Right there on Eastern Avenue where that funeral parlor is. You corralled, it was
fenced in there. That’s as far as the streetcar went, send you down on the dummy. Then you went
down, straight down the street and then turned and went, headed for Reed’s Lake. Was about a
twenty or thirty minute ride on the dummy to get to the lake.
Interviewer: Was that quite a summer resort place too in those days?
Mr. Shelby: Well, not exactly no. No.
Interviewer: Did they have boats on the lake?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, they had amusements, yeah boats. They had, well Manhattan Beach they had
boats across the lake. There were two boats and they were always fighting one another, bumping
into one another, having battles.
Woman: Big boats?
Interviewer: Were they large boats?
Mr. Shelby: Well, one was big, broad, broad one you know…Bud used to work on one of them.

�14

Woman: What were those boats? The Watson?
Interviewer: One of the last ones was the Ramona that I remember. And then there was one
called the Hazel A and one called the Major Watson I think it was called.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, Major Watson. That Dago that owned, one day was having a battle you know,
they wanted to run into, ram the Major Watson.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: He was a smaller, trim little boat. I’ve forgotten the name of the owner, the Italian,
but his dock was –that way –
Interviewer: Now your father came here with the, to be, to run the Grand Rapids and Indiana
Railroad, is that correct?
Mr. Shelby: That’s right.
Interviewer: And your grandfather Cass was president of the…
Mr. Shelby: Fort Wayne, Cincinnati-Fort Wayne, Chicago-Cincinnati, yes, the Pennsylvania
from Pittsburgh to Chicago.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago I think was the title.
Interviewer: Were there other members of the family in that railroad?
Mr. Shelby: No, no.
Interviewer: I see. Tell me about your uncle, Mr. Henry D. Whalen Jr. Who, What did he do?
Mr. Shelby: I don’t know, other than Grandfather bought that house on Fountain and Lafayette
for Mr. Whalen and my Aunt Augusta. Henry D. Whalen is. And Michigan Iron Works is what
he was head of, and my grandfather put him into it. It was a medium-size organization. And he
was head of the Michigan Iron Works; he was the son-in-law of George W. Cass, as my father
was.
Woman: Did he go to Westpoint, your father? Did Henry Whalen, he went to Westpoint?
Mr. Shelby: Did what?
Interviewer: Did he go to Westpoint?
Woman: Westpoint? The school? Henry Whalen?

�15

Mr. Shelby: Oh, I don’t remember.
Woman: I was wondering if he was in the army.
Mr. Shelby: Very possibly he did. My grandfather went to Westpoint for sure. George W. Cass
did.
Woman: -and someone else did.
Mr. Shelby: He was a mathematician. I missed out on the mathematics, I’ve had to contend with
all my life.
Interviewer: Do you remember your grandfather Cass?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Did he come to Grand Rapids or did you go to see him?
Mr. Shelby: Occasionally.
Interviewer: Did you go to visit him?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, I remember him very well. He lived at 52 West Fifty-Seventh Street.
Interviewer: 52 West Fifty-Seventh Street.
Woman: In New York.
Mr. Shelby: He was quite severe to me.
Interviewer: Now, didn’t they have a home in S--- Pennsylvania?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s, yes he did.
Interviewer: He had two homes then?
Mr. Shelby: He had two homes, first in Allegheny and then in S---. C--- they called the name of
it. Had ___, which is a suburb of Pittsburg. There is quite a noted author person who came and
lived there. I can’t remember her name now. She bought it.
Interviewer: I can’t remember
Women: Mary Reynold Reinhart?
Interviewere: Mary Reynold Reinhart perhaps?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah. She bought it.

�16

Interviewer: Now, did he have the house in New York at the same that he had the house in
S_ikcley (?)
Mr. Shelby: I’m pretty sure, I don’t remember about that one, no.
Interviewer: But you knew the address.
Mr. Shelby: Well 52 West 57th
Woman: That’s where you used to go and visit.
Mr. Shelby: Right across the street was the sonspace (?). Tall, long stone apartment which was
called an apartment building, it was rather unusual because they weren’t many of them in New
York at that time.
Interviewer: What was the name of it again, please?
Mr. Shelby: The sauncee I guess. I don’t know how to spell it. It was an apartment building.
Interviewer: How little would you have been when you weren’t to go see your grandfather?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, well I think it would be fourteen or something like that.
Interviewer: I see, well, now…
Mr. Shelby: Now we sent down by our grandfather’s casket, we’ll get a little culture, we were
considered a little build raw and wild having gone from Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: Well you were going to St. Paul’s and Yale, but that was…
Mr. Shelby: Later on…
Interviewer: right, that’s right.
Mr. Shelby: Preceding that I was groomed to walk down 5th avenue and to look like I belonged.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr .Shelby: I still had what I was considered a little wild compared with my cousin Kenny
Wallen. I was a little more aggressive. He was quieter and a little bit bored. He didn’t have the
help as I did or the buoyancy. And I suppose Sunday is full with very impressive the procession
on 5th avenue, of people going to churches and the various churches, the various clubs you know.
Interviewer: Where did your grandfather go to church?
Mr. Shelby: Christ church. In fact he was a vestament (?). What do you call them?
Interviewer: Yes, vestament.

�17

Mr. Shelby: Yeah you know he was, he bought a beard of course, I remember that. He could be
very quiet and very severe, and make you feel like a, you know, a shrimp. I was taken out there
to try to get a little bit of the western blood out of me, don’t you know. In New York you have to
baby yourself. You walk very sedately; hold your grandfather’s hand.
Interviewer: Did you know your grandmother too?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, she was invalid most of her life, but I knew her.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: Had nurses all the time and probably rubbings and you know…she was more or less
in a state of invalidism.
Interviewer: I see. Your grandfather lived to an advanced age?
Mr. Shelby: Did he what?
Interviewer: Did he live to an advanced age?
Mr. Shelby: I think it was in the high 70’s I would say.
Interviewer: High 70’s. I see.
Mr. Shelby: Like 78 or some such… nothing like my father, my father lived to be 90, 89 really.
Interviewer: 89.
Mr. Shelby: My mother (life was)?
Interviewer: Where was your mother’s, excuse me, where did your father’s family come from?
Mr. Shelby: Kentucky. Danville, Kentucky.
Interviewer: What about Shelbyville? Where does that figure?
Mr. Shelby: Oh I think they just used them as names. They they they just liked the name Shelby.
I don’t think it was…
Interviewer: I see, so they are really from Danville, Kentucky.
Mr. Shelby: Danville, yeah. Isaac Shelby was the youngest in Kentucky and he lived, I think in
Danville Kentucky. Anyway, I’d have to…I’d been to that, to see the places over.
Interviewer: Do you have any relatives left down there that you know or know anything about?
Mr. Shelby: I don’t think so, no.

�18

Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: No.
Interviewer: Well now when, after you got out of Yale, did you come right back to Grand
Rapids?
Mr. Shelby: I went to Europe.
Interviewer: Oh, you went to Europe. Well tell us about that.
Mr. Shelby: Well we went out of Minneapolis. There was a boat that carried cattle. Took 15 days
to cross and we were limited to about 15 or 15 or 20 people, 15 I would say, nice people.
Interviewer: Did you go…
Mr. Shelby: I mean I
Interviewer: Did you go with your family?
Mr. Shelby: No, just Harry Whittaker and myself and these people. There were some relatives of
Yale families aboard this camp. She quite a stunning girl, I remember, she was a decent quarter
camp she was very famous at Yale.
Woman: I remember hearing about Walter Camp.
Interviewer: Walter Camp, a big figure at Yale.
Woman: A famous athlete, but I don’t know what sport. Was he football player, or what was he
father?
Mr. Shelby: Uh, I forget, yeah I think so. She was out there, and her mother. We had the whole
ship the cattle were below you. You didn’t even know they were there. I mean there was, there
wasn’t any contact with them.
Interviewer: 15 days.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah…
Interviewer: Where did you…
Mr. Shelby: Minneapolis
Interviewer: Where did you land when you got there?
Mr. Shelby: We landed in London.
Interviewer: In London.

�19

Mr. Shelby: In London. Then we had to take a tram up to London.
Interviewer: Did you go, well maybe you landed in South Hampton?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, South Hampton. I think so, yeah. Right at the foot of the Themes River.
Interviewer: Well, maybe you did land closer to London.
Mr. Shelby: Once every 15 miles a trip up the tram was, they called it up to the town you know.
And we walked right up to the Fogger (?) Square, I remember the hotel very well. North
Umberland (?) Avenue. A very short street. There was a clubhouse across the street from them
but it was a 7 story clubhouse I used to see club men go up in an out of that and that time I was
there. So I went in there and I was, and at that time Harry’s sister, Mary and some woman from
Kalamazoo had apartments up on one of the avenues. One of those fashionable streets, you
know, up near the Arch de Triumph.
Interviewer: Now wait, I lack, we got from London to Paris pretty quickly. How long did you
stay in London?
Mr. Shelby: Oh well I think we were there maybe 10 days or so before we went to Paris.
Woman: They climbed up to the top of St. Paul’s and they…
Interviewer: Now you, you went, you climbed up to the top of St. Paul’s? St. Paul’s cathedral?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, yes we did. Both of us, that’s about 500 steps.
Woman: Father, who was the man who took you around the dock? Where the…
Mr. Shelby: Oh, oh that was later on when I was aboard a, I was on board one of these double
decker buses you know, and a man sat down next to me and said ―You are an American aren’t
you?‖ and I said, yes I am. Well he says ―I am William Louis‖, or what did I say? What did I
say? Well he said ―I’m Good’s manager for London’s southwest royalty, perhaps you would like
to see the London dock.‖ Yeah, then I said, yeah I certainly would. So he gave me a pass to go to
the London dock. Which I did and everything under the sun that England brings by boat is stored
there. Elephant tusks and rhinoceros horns, and hides and everything under the sun that comes
from all over the world where England has got a count in it, there’s a store there on bond. You
see and it’s drawn by order you know, the London dock can be very very expensive.
Interviewer: Was this there, on the first trip you took?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, this is then.
Interviewer: You saw this on your first trip?

�20

Mr. Shelby: Yes it is. There I was sitting on top of a bus when this man recognized me. I said,
how’d you know? He said ―Well you are worried about both of you‖ he says, I saw that, a boater
(?).
Interviewer: Well then you went to Paris.
Mr. Shelby: William Wilkins. Yeah, and then I went to Paris. And mother had a house there, and
mother and my sister Violet had an apartment there too. But I spent my time in Paris roaming
about the city like anyone would you know.
Interviewer: You said that your sister Mary had a, no excuse me, Mr. Whittaker’s sister..
Mr. Shelby: Violet. My sister Violet.
Interviewer: Your sister, but also Mr. Whittaker’s sister had uh...
Mr. Shelby: Well she and a Mrs. from Kalamazoo, I can’t remember the women’s name had this
apartment up near the Arch de Triumph right in the very center of Paris.
Interviewer: And your mother and your sister also had a…
Mr. Shelby: We were living on the West bank (?)
Interviewer: Your mother and sister, were they there at the same time you were?
Mr. Shelby: Uh, no later.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah.
Woman: They were there when father was there though. They came over there.
Interviewer: Did you
Mr. Shelby: We were there in Paris for maybe a week or 10 days. We were booked for
Howmagmiow (???) a fashion play down in Austria. And so Harry and I went to that and it was,
and we had to go through Germany down into where the fashion play was. We saw that and it
was all day long in the…
Interviewer: Does that mean, would you have traveled all the way by train?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Munich. Not which I would recommend that name I remember.
Interviewer: And after the fashion play where did you go?
Mr. Shelby: Then we came back to Paris and…

�21

Interviewer: And you returned to this country from France?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, I came back with my mother and sister.
Woman: You went to Holland.
Mr. Shelby: No, Holland is where we landed.
Interviewer: I see.
Woman: Ok yeah.
Mr. Shelby: On our trip out from here, when we came from this side.
Woman: So maybe from England.
Mr. Shelby: That was very customary, the fashion play was believe it or not, wasn’t an annual
thing as I remember but it’s still going on I guess.
Interviewer: Well now when you got back from Europe, what did you do? Did you go to work
right away, or…?
Mr. Shelby: We would work in Papa’s office in the treasury department.
Interviewer: And how long did you stay there?
Mr. Shelby: Umm, quite a good many years.
Interviewer: Where was his office?
Mr. Shelby: In the GR and I building, the railroad office on Ionia street.
Interviewer: the _LAD plant?
Interviewer: Was that the building that was torn down about 10 years ago?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah yeah.
Interviewer: I remember it.
Mr. Shelby: I worked in that on the books you know, oh agents agents were___ I would take
them down to the bank you know. All the money that would come in from the ticket sales all
along the line, from Richmond down to Mackinac.
Woman: Then you went up to Al Gold Mine(?) and built the railroad.
Mr. Shelby: What?
Woman: When did you go up to Al Gold Mine(?) ?

�22

Mr. Shelby: Oh that was later on.
Woman: Oh.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah later on.
Woman: That must have been hard.
Mr. Shelby: Later on the Al Gold (?) had sent the railway it was formed by the Canadian people
from the Pennsylvania railroad thought that we might have some connection with it so they
suggested my father they, so they said send a representative up to see how the railroad was
getting on, and I was the boy that went there. And I was landed in the Sault and I took a boat, I
took a boat from the Sault to this point where Montreal was it Montreal river empties in to Lake
Superior. From there I was dumped all into the steamer, and the steamer into about 6 feet of
water. Like a dungeon. I am like soaking wet you know, I made that trip with an Indian and a
squall and they were down somewhere further further in the steamer and then I had to walk from
there to where the camp was, about 12 miles inland.
Interviewer: What year, what year would that have been Mr. Shelby?
Mr. Shelby: Let’s see…
Interviewer: Near the 1900’s we know that…
Mr. Shelby: Maybe 19-6 or so, something like that. After I had been to the GR. So that Mr.
Mckray was the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad at that time suggests to my father that
someone will be up there looking after their interests, and I was the boy that was sent.
Interviewer: How long did you stay?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, I stayed until December.
Interviewer: Was there a settlement up there, or a little town?
Mr. Shelby: No, just the railway, just building the railway.
Interviewer: Just the…I see, I see.
Mr. Shelby: Laying the track.
Interviewer: I see, actually building the railway
Mr. Shelby: Right away, yeah
Interviewer: mmhmm

�23

Mr. Shelby: But it was quite picturesque spot right next to the Montreal River. They’ve since
dammed it, to the lake there. But there was a waterfall right, we camped at a waterfall, we looked
down the little waterfall. This you know, the Canadian engineer and his helper and I was timekeeper. I walked everyday about 10 or 15 miles to take the time of then on the job you know.
Interviewer: Would this have been north of Lake Superior?
Mr. Shelby: Yes on the north side of Lake Superior.
Interviewer: mmhmm, mmhmm.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah.
Woman: There is a railroad there now an excursion.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, there is a complete railway now, it goes about 300 miles on the s---?
Interviewer: Is that that new that excursion that goes from Sault Ste Marie?
Mr. Shelby: Out over __ Hudson Bay.
Interviewer: Quite popular now.
Women: Quite mountainous.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah we took we took last year a train there you know it was delightful. There’s a
there’s a stone there’s …I think I picked up that stone at the canyon it’s over there that round, get
it. Yeah that round stone. Well…
Interviewer: Well we’ll turn it off…
Mr. Shelby: It’s because I picked that up and bought a stone.
Interviewer: That’s a very beautiful stone.
Mr. Shelby: Isn’t it? I’m crazy about stones. It was from the ___ canyon.
Interviewer: Does that weigh about 10 lbs? Does that weight about 10 lbs.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah I’d say about that. They tell a story. That waterfalls and the cascades at that
canyon. In fact I have got descriptive literature and pamphlets up here.
Interviewer: Well now, were you married at this time?
Mr. Shelby: I think so.
Woman: Yeah if it was 19…

�24

Mr. Shelby: No, no I wasn’t.
Interviewer: Do you remember was it…
Mr. Shelby: No, I wasn’t married.
Interviewer: Do you remember the year you were married?
Mr. Shelby: No, I wasn’t married at that time. I was single.
Interviewer: I see. Were you married in Grand Rapids?
Mr. Shelby: No, I’m not…I can’t remember…
Woman: Was it Indianapolis?
Mr. Shelby: …no I’m trying to…
Woman: Anyway they went to visit that nice place down in Carolina.
Interviewer: Well there are quite a few places.
Woman: Ashville, Ashville. I don’t think they got married down there, I think it was someplace
in Indiana.
Interviewer: Where did you live after you were married Mr. Shelby?
Mr. Shelby: Hmm, I was trying to think about it.
Woman: Barkley, Barkley Street.
Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah, on Barkley Street. That’s right.
Interviewer: Whereabouts? Do you remember the number?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, well it was an apartment building. Did, did…a red brick apartment building.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: It was just a going down Fountain Street you could look glance up Barkley Street
you could see the building from there. I wouldn’t know the number; it was a two story building.
Woman: You have to take Clark to get there.
Interviewer: Yeah, I think I know the building, right.
Mr. Shelby: It’s still there.
Interviewer: Mmhmm, yeah.

�25

Mr. Shelby: You can see it if you walk up Fountain Street, you can see it.
Interviewer: Yup.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah.
Interviewer: That was your first home?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right.
Interviewer: Well now, I understand you went to California. When did you go to California?
Mr. Shelby: I’m not exactly, I’ve forgotten now.
Woman: It must have been 1910.
Interviewer: Was it about 1910?
Mr. Shelby: I’ve forgotten exactly.
Interviewer: Well…
Mr. Shelby: I had gotten interested through the Santé Fe people in the establishment of a colony
to grow fruits, you know?
Interviewer: Mmhmm.
Mr. Shelby: And they were retired to it later on. Then my money bought the tract. Out in
Reedley California.
Interviewer: Where was it in California?
Mr. Shelby: Reedley.
Interviewer: Where is that?
Mr. Shelby: Well it’s right in the central valley, central to the San Joaquin Valley.
Interviewer: How do you, how do you spell Reedley?
Mr. Shelby: R-double E-D-L-E-Y.
Interviewer: uh huh.
Mr. Shelby: Reedley California. It was outside of that of a small town. Where the where the I
named the tract after after my wife Annadelle Colony. And it was through, it was by the foot of
Mt. Campbell was this tract of land, right at the foot of the high Sierras.
Interviewer: mmhmm.

�26

Mr. Shelby: The high Sierras began in the San Joaquin Valley right west of our land. You would
look up at the high Sierras. Had a wonderful view of the mountains, the high Sierras.
Interviewer: You raised oranges?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s what the idea, yeah, then…
Interviewer: And how long were you there doing that?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, say I was maybe 10 or 15 years I would say.
Woman: 1922?
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: And those, Bill was born there, and Cameron.
Woman: 1922?
Mr. Shelby: But I was in charge, in charge of the development though you know this used to be
Santé Fe employees when they retired would move out to their place to their rows and develop it.
It was tracts you know, the colony was. Each owner.
Interviewer: How much was it when you started?
Mr. Shelby: I had 20 acres, and one or two men had 40 acres.
Interviewer: Oh really?
Mr. Shelby: But they.
Interviewer: I’m going to turn the tape over.
Interviewer: Now this is side 2 of the interview recorded with Mr. George Shelby on Thursday,
January 16, 1975. Ok, you were talking about the grove, and you mentioned that you also grew
figs out there.
Mr. Shelby: Yes, 5 acres of figs, and 15 of oranges.
Interviewer: Was there some sort of a central building, where people gathered?
Mr. Shelby: No, no not...
Interviewer: I see, your individual homes?
Mr. Shelby: Individual homes.
Interviewer: Mmhmm.

�27

Mr. Shelby: There were 2 or 3 others that were small, we were cottages. I don’t think, that was
our little house.
Interviewer: I see it, yeah.
Mr. Shelby: This was Mount Campbell. You can’t you can’t see the top of it.
Woman: Many trees though.
Mr. Shelby: That’s about a thousand feet high, and this is all level ground. And on this side there
was another mountain, Mount Chomininee and there’s about, you go through the gap you’ve got
the Fresno about 25 miles away that way.
Interviewer: Hmm
Mr. Shelby: And that’s Bill,
Interviewer: That’s Bill.
Mr. Shelby: and that’s Eleanor, and there’s County, the horse.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Mr. Shelby: And that was, that was that little house I put up and I think it was cost about 800
dollars.
Interviewer: Really?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, put it up in about 2 days. I mean, the carpenters did it. Of course after that we
enlarged it. We added a porch.
Interviewer: Here’s another picture Mr. Shelby, Eleanor got.
Mr. Shelby: Mmhmm, yeah. Yeah, that’s Bill, Eleanor and a little pool I built. Well, of course
this after the first year and we kept embellishing it, all the time. Looks quite a finished place.
Interviewer: How many people were there?
Mr. Shelby: Nobody else at that time up until the time we left, except the hired men in the other
20’s and 40’s.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: They were there in the small houses you know. We were the only people who had a
fairly sized place and kept enlarging it.
Interviewer: In what year do you think you returned to Grand Rapids?

�28

Mr. Shelby: Gosh, let me see.
Interviewer: Sometimes during the 1920’s I would…
Mr. Shelby: I think so.
Woman: I think about ’22?
Interviewer: Your daughter says…
Mr. Shelby: My father and mother came out and visited me several times, but I find this sold out
you know, can’t return to Grand Rapids and return to the railroads.
Interviewer: How long were you with the railroads, again?
Mr. Shelby: Oh let’s see, I can’t remember the dates. Well I remember we got them, I got to
representing firms for insurance stock in Chicago. Billy Baker got me into that. I wasn’t doing
anything for awhile.
Interviewer: Who was Billy Baker?
Mr. Shelby: Well he was just a Grand Rapids boy. Billy Baker, his brother was quite prominent.
I don’t, they were in the brokers business. He got me interested, I represented, what did I do?
The fire insurance you know that sort of stuff.
Interviewer: Mmhmm.
Mr.Shelby: Then I got into the investment business.
Interviewer: Let’s go back to the your association with Mr. Baker, where did you have an office
then?
Mr.Shelby: In the Michigan Trust building.
Interviewer: In the Michigan Trust building.
Mr. Shelby: In the Michigan Trust building.
Interviewer: Then you got into the brokerage business, or?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I got into the, I can’t think of his name he was very prominent, he represented
the LeeAgents (?) and Company, they were the top people in the United States in that in the
brokerage business you know.
Interviewer: LeeAgents and Company.

�29

Mr. Shelby: They were nationwide. I mean, in the eastern part of the state. They, what killed
them was the suicide of Iber Kreuger in Paris this was east liberty, between liberty and so Lee
Havenson was ruined, and I’m trying to think of the man who got me interested in Lee
Havenson. His son is also the trustee. What is his name? Tall, Arthur? What is his name? Funny
I can’t think of it. Well anyway he he was a representative of Lee Havenson and he invited me to
join them as a join representative of the Lee Havenson company. We were in the Michigan Trust
building up on the 9th floor I think. And after this happened, when this man committed suicide,
Lee Havenson finally went into bankruptcy I guess as a result of that, his suicide. Then a Mr.
Mcmhoffan invited me to join their firm and I was there ever since. John Mcmhoffan invited me.
Interviewer: Yes, John Mcmhoffan.
Mr. Shelby: Mumbling.
Interviewer: When did Sam Greenwalt join that firm?
Mr. Shelby: When did what?
Interviewer: When did Sam Greenwalt join the firm?
Mr. Shelby: Well I guess they were original firm this, I don’t know that he joined it. He was he
was the trader they called him, managed it. And John was the was the president he was vice
president, Sam Greenwalt was vice president.
Interviewer: Mmhmm.
Mr. Shelby: I don’t know how many years they had been established when I joined them, but
quite a few years, maybe 10 years. I think you could get some confirmation to that from Ms.
Romence would know that. Maude Romence would know.
Interviewer: Maude Romence?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah
Interviewer: R-O-M-A-N-C-E?
Mr. Shelby: She would know all about it, she was secretary. Huh?
Interviewer: How do you spell her name?
Mr. Shelby: R-O-M-E-N-C-E
Interviewer: E-N-C-E, oh.
Mr. Shelby: She was secretary of the, Ray Brinn was the cashier, I remember him being small,
short and dumpy. I can’t remember his association but he took care of the books. But anyway, I

�30

was Mr. Mcmhoffan invited me into the firm and put on Greenwall’s told me which had been
going maybe some 10 years maybe, I couldn’t tell you exactly when.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Mr. Shelby: …and I’ve been with him ever since.
Interviewer: Where are they now Mr. Shelby?
Mr. Shelby: Well Mr. Mcmhoffan,
Interviewer: No, I mean where is the firm?
Mr. Shelby: Oh it’s it’s, well it’s in the Michigan Trust building. In the old kindle.
Interviewer: In the old kindle. Yeah.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, but it isn’t a firm anymore. We’ve off and died and sold us in. Suddenly it
keeled over and…you know.
Interviewer: I remember.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, very dramatically. And that’s the end of Sam Greenwalt and John. John got
out of it and went south. John Jr.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Shelby: John Jr. So there is no one left there except Jim Short, who was a salesman, as I was,
and started the railroads and other things, transportation largely. And of course I sold them into, I
thought it was good, you know consumer’s power they chose it. But I specialized in the railroad
and I still have them. And they are the best investment on the market today because they don’t
have any packaging (?) laws. Because they, they got oil. Santé Fe, Southern Pacific, and Union
Pacific, all very prosperous I have 3 of them.
Interviewer: Would you advise me to buy those today?
Mr. Shelby: I certainly would. You couldn’t buy anything better. I just bought 10 more shares of
Union Pacific. That’s about 70 years old of uninterrupted dividends.
Interviewer: That’s pretty good.
Mr. Shelby: Ha, can’t beat it.
Interviewer: Who were some of the other tenants in that Michigan Trust building, when you
worked there?

�31

Mr. Shelby: Well there was that insurance office on the corner building. What was, who were
they?
Woman: Grenol Roll?
Interviewer: Grenol Rol?
Mr. Shelby: Huh? Who?
Woman: Grenol Rowl?
Mr. Shelby: Grenol Roll?
Woman: Uh-huh.
Mr. Shelby: I think they were. Well there were lawyers in there, quite a well Meryl Lynch was in
there for awhile on the 6th floor. Until they moved over to that building next to the Prince Club,
you know. It was full of lawyers and uh, let’s see, who else? Well there was the University Club,
at the top.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Shelby: Isn’t that the, Arthur Whitworth. That is the man who got me into the Lee Havenson
Company. Arthur Whitworth.
Interviewer: J. Arthur Whitworth.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah.
Interviewer: I remember I don’t remember him, but I remember the name
Mr. Shelby: He wore a beard.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes I think I do remember him.
Mr. Shelby: That’s right; his son was made the vice president of the Michigan trust, very smart
man. Well, no now it comes back clearly. I, Lewis Dewes was a small medium sized insurance
company that Billy Baker got me connected with in Chicago. And I don’t know if…
Interviewer: What was the name of that firm sir? Lewis…
Mr. Shelby: Yeah…
Interviewer: How do you spell it?
Mr. Shelby: Lewis, Lewis. L-E-W-I-S.
Interviewer: Yes.

�32

Mr. Shelby: D-E-W-E-S, Lewis Dewes, they were an insurance business. And Billy Baker got
me into going into that. I represented them for awhile in the insurance, selling insurance stock.
And I had an office in the Michigan Trust on the 9th floor at the end of the building right next to
the where Phil Fuller and other people were interested in the lumber business I and then I later on
whatyama I just mentioned his name invited me in to leave.
Interviewer: Whitworth
Mr. Shelby: And I was with them until I was in South Bend stopping to see a friend there when I
got the news in the elevator that Lee Havenson, that Koogerage had shot himself I mean. And
then that came, and then after that it was a piece of chaos, gradually until the rest of them, they
just simply knocked it all out. It was too big of a scandal worldwide you know. I think mother
mother was in Europe at the time on some other trip. I’m not sure now.
Interviewer: I called on your nephew Bud Kunuclip the other evening.
Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah, Buddy.
Interviewer: And he was, uh telling me that your father was had a nickname Dandy.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that was just a pet name. Yeah.
Woman: We all called him that.
Mr. Shelby: He was just a marvelous man. My, wonderful father. There is a good picture of him.
Interviewer: Yeah, I’ve seen, I saw the picture when I came in.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, he was a wonderful man.
Interviewer: Were your parents quite active in society, or?
Mr. Shelby: Yes, we…
Interviewer: Or entertained the field?
Mr. Shelby: We had a good many, we had a good many entertainments at Lafayette Avenue.
And…
Interviewer: What sorts of entertainments?
Mr. Shelby: Well, uh reception was one kind of them, the connection with the art gallery, we we
donated quite a number of things to the art gallery when my father died, which they have now.
Some very handsome tables and things, mirrors.
Interviewer: It was a big, big house.

�33

Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, 12 foot high ceilings. Mrs. Young, Mrs. Sam Young bought those mirrors
that were in the par, in the parlor. Those 12 foot mirrors, they came I think from New York, New
York City, my Grandfather’s house in New York.
Interviewer: Were these parties that your mother and father these receptions, were they very
large affairs?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: How many people?
Mr. Shelby: Oh 50,60, or 70.
Interviewer: Mmhmm. And were they catered?
Mr. Shelby: huh?

Interviewer: Were they catered?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, they uh, what’s the name of the caterer?
Woman: I remember, Jen Door?
Interviewer: Dr. Jenoff?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, it had to be.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Mr. Shelby: Oh we had quite a lot of receptions. That was a big house. The library was 30 feet
long and the dining room was 40.
Interviewer: Ooh.
Mr. Shelby: I mean the crossway.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Woman: I remember a couple…president.
Mr. Shelby: 12 foot 12 foot ceilings that I love. Just think, I had to get rid of them and I got
6,000 dollars and they are asking 80,000 for it now. 80,000 is full like a rabbits worn it makes
me sick…
Interviewer: Who…

�34

Mr. Shelby: …that a man would go buy it.
Interviewer: ..were your neighbors on Lafayette Street?
Mr. Shelby: The McNights.
Interviewer: Yes, who?
Mr. Shelby: Like Anna McNight.
Interviewer: I remember her of course, but…
Mr. Shelby: Well quite a number, what was the name of that big clergyman we had? Can’t think
of it. His name was…
Woman: Was it Campbell Fayer?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Woman: I’ve heard you speak of Campbell Fayer.
Interviewer: Campbell Fayer?
Mr. Shelby: No, he was he was back in the when I was a boy he gave me Baltimore. No,
I…McKormick!
Interviewer: Where did Mr. McKormick live?
Mr. Shelby: He lived on Lafayette.
Interviewer: I didn’t know that.
Mr. Shelby: Yes, I think the church owned that building on South Lafayette.
Interviewer: Oh, South Lafayette.
Mr. Shelby: Quite a good size.
Interviewer: Oh yes, I know I know where it is.
Mr. Shelby: I think that is an Episcopal residence.
Interviewer: Yeah, who who were some of the other people who lived on Lafayette, closer to
you? Across the street for instance.
Mr. Shelby: Next to us was the Gilberts.
Interviewer: The Gilberts next door.

�35

Mr. Shelby: The gas company. Beautiful home.
Interviewer: And the Hazeltines?
Mr. Shelby: The Hazeltines lived right on John street, right right through they’re joining our
backyard.
Interviewer: And you remember Dr. Hazeltine?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, very well.
Interviewer: Can you tell us a little bit about him?
Mr. Shelby: He was a big old muffin top, I remember that. You know, size things you, he was a
very closed mouth very severe type man. Dignified, you know. Stately, I’d say kind of a stately
type.
Interviewer: Was he tall?
Mr. Shelby: No.
Interviewer: He’s not tall…
Mr. Shelby: Medium, we’ll say maybe 5 feet 9 or 10.
Interviewer: Mmhmm.
Mr. Shelby: No, he wasn’t a big man. He wasn’t big like my father. My father was, my father
was 6 feet. No he wasn’t, he was medium height. Mrs. Hazeltine was a great beauty, very very
lovely woman, beautiful too. He built that wall up that stone wall and then there was another
house right at the foot where the elderly people Newman I think there name was. They lived
there for years, a little wooden house.
Interviewer: Would that be on Barkley?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, the foot of Barkley Street and John Street. Small,white house.
Interviewer: You remember you spoke of Phil Fuller. Now he lived across…
Mr. Shelby: Well, Phil Fuller lived across the street from us in a good size house on this way and
the whole hold men came and galloped on the corner. Several families there, then the T.J.
O’Brien house.
Interviewer: Yeah, on the other side of the corner.

�36

Mr. Shelby: Yeah on that side. Then the alley, and then the corner was John Lawrence, the
lawyer. The house was still there with a bay window. I know of several people that have
occupied that corner house on the, during the past 40 years.
Woman: The family who was in the women’s city club they were doing so well?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Woman: The family?
Mr. Shelby: No, the women’s city club belongs, who was that?
Interviewer: Wasn’t it the Sweet family?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yes.
Woman: You would play in the attic with that peep hole?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, the peep hole. We used to play up in that. I did I used to play up there, you
know build with building blocks and Mitchell was his nephew or grandson. He used to play up
on that tower.
Interviewer: Was his name Mitchell Sweet?
Mr. Shelby: No, Mitchell was his grandson of the owner of it.
Interviewer: Now, you must have known Thomas O’Brien well.
Mr. Shelby: Oh, didn’t know anyone else better. He was the general counsel of the GR and I.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
Mr. Shelby: Thomas C. O’Brien. And Catherine married a very old some old Englishman who
lived inside the Orient for awhile. And Howard was and Howard and my brother Walter were
great friends. Walter, Howard O’Brien and my brother Walter just my brother ahead of me, they
were great friends.
Interviewer: Didn’t Catherine marry…
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: Didn’t Catherine marry Sir Henry Kilton? I think that was his name.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, she married very well to a very prominent person. She was a lovely woman,
Catherine.
Interviewer: Can you tell me something about the Hope family.

�37

Mr. Shelby: Well Hope wasn’t very popular with anybody. He was a very exclusive type of a
person that thought a great deal of himself and I don’t recall him being particularly prominent or
notable. He came from Kentucky, he was from Kentucky. He was a bit exclusive in his
friendships and his manner of living and he was pretty well conceived by bushes over there.
Otherwise I don’t think he was very well liked, he was kind of pompous and we thought he was
not, well not worth all the agilation.
Interviewer: But he was president of the country club for many years.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yes. But he wasn’t a stockholder as we were.
Interviewer: He wasn’t?
Mr. Shelby: The O’Brien family and ourselves were the only stockholders.
Interviewer: Oh really?
Mr. Shelby: I didn’t get a penny for it, not a penny. And it was awfully extravagant and he drove
it into debt, you know.
Interviewer: What about Mrs. Hope? Was she…?
Mr. Shelby: Mrs. Hope was very lovely but she had a lot of children and then Moosey was the
name of one. I don’t know but they seemed to have a lot of 5 or 6 children there. But they lived
by themselves and they weren’t friendly, not unfriendly, but they were just exclusive. They
weren’t mixers.
Interviewer: Well he was president for over 30 years at that club. You wonder how a man could
be a president for so long.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah I know. Well he had a good many dinners out there that I know. I don’t know I
just have a feeling, just a little feeling I think between Mr. O’Brien and my father against Mr.
Hope. What it was I don’t know.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: But socially why he was quite acceptable but exclusive. J.C. Hope.
Interviewer: You mentioned the Earl family earlier.
Mr. Shelby: The what?
Interviewer: The Earl family.
Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Tell me about the Earls.

�38

Mr. Shelby: Well the, well I only got to know the Edward Earl who was and Fred was my
brother Walter’s age. And Fred Earl had a big bob, about 30 feet long that we used to slide down
hill on. And Mr. Earl was a quite type of man, a lawyer and they had proctor duty on their front
porch in the summer time you could see them sitting there you know.
Interviewer: That was Fountain and Lafayette?
Mr. Shelby: Fountain and Lafayette yeah.
Interviewer: Where the Davenport men’s dorm is?
Mr. Shelby: Yeah
Interviewer: Yeah I think it is now.
Mr. Shelby: I I don’t know who is responsible for selling that.
Interviewer: I don’t know either.
Mr. Shelby: I said, I’m sorry that that residence is gone myself.
Interviewer: It is a beautiful home.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, it’s spacious too you know. You know they had a stable in the rear of their
lot.
Interviewer: I called on Mrs. Knappen, Clara Knappen. Do you remember the Knappens?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, they lived right in the middle of the block. A Crosby home I think.
Interviewer: Yes, mmhmm.
Mr. Shelby: Yes, Mrs. Knappen, very well.
Interviewer: Her husband was an attorney I believe.
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: Her husband was an attorney.
Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right. Oh yes, I remember them. Stuart Knappen, wasn’t it?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Shelby: Jim Crosby lived in that too and Raymond he was a weird boy. He used to walk in a
very mincey way. I can see him now, I think people made funny of him of sort of a feminine,
because he would walk…

�39

Interviewer: Don’t trip over there.
(muffled laughter)
Mr. Shelby: He wasn’t a real man you know; he was a Yale man too.
Woman: Well you knew Ralph Bolton. Was that his name? He was a Yale man.
Interviewer: Yeah we, what about Ralph Bolton? Did you know Ralph?
Mr. Shelby: Well Ralph was the kind of a boy odd man that was trying to make him, make him
refine him a bit. He was simply a good German, son of a German successful merchandiser. He
was sent to Yale. He was kind of an odd man. I didn’t think he belonged to anything, any
particular mark. He was just simply was sent there, that was all. He wouldn’t be the type that
anybody would take up with, that he would be very chummy with, you know? He wasn’t
attractive enough, I would say. He came in to see me quite a number of times just to do it. But I
don’t know, he was just Ralph boy that was all. I don’t, I kind of amused the people that make so
much of that house architecturally I don’t think there is anything outstanding in it. It’s just a very
sizeable, a good size American architectural home you know. I don’t think it has any merits
architecturally. I wouldn’t say that it has, but they made it into a museum now didn’t they?
Interviewer: Yes, yes.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah well, let them do it then if that gives them any pleasure.
Women: I think it’s a good idea.
Mr. Shelby: I don’t know how they characterize it, as a typical Eng-, American home. Well built,
well designed, but I don’t know that it has any charm to it. I never felt like it had. I think the
house that if you watchyamacallit, go around the corner, oh what’s his name?
Interviewer: Edward Low?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: Edward Low?
Mr. Shelby: Not Edward. Some, it was right at the corner, at the very head of the street, it was
the best looking house.
Interviewer: Now which house was that?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: Which house are we talking about?
Mr. Shelby: Well on the corner of, is that College Avenue?

�40

Woman: College and Washington?
Mr. Shelby: Washington Street?
Interviewer: Yes…
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, right at the corner there. Is that, they had a fire there once. Their horses were
burned up.
Interviewer: Now which house? Is this the house that Henry Idema lived at later?
Woman: Yeah.
Mr. Shelby: Possibly.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I guess so.
Interviewer: If you go up the street it’s on the right.
Mr. Shelby: It did, yes.
Interviewer: Yellow brick?
Mr. Shelby: Yes.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Shelby: Right on the corner.
Interviewer: That house I think was built by Edward, by Edward Low.
Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right. Than who was at the top of the hill, the big tall house?
Woman: The Waters?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Woman: The Water’s house?
Mr. Shelby: No, not the Waters.
Woman: The Thistle house?
Mr. Shelby: Thistle was it? Yeah. Edward(?) Thistle?
Interviewer: Yeah.

�41

Woman: That was a pretty house.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah.
Interviewer: Well, what do you think? Is it, what do you think is going to become of us with the
economy going the way it is?
Mr. Shelby: You mean the present state of the United States?
Interviewer: Do you think we will ever pull out of it?
Mr. Shelby: God, I don’t like making any predictions. Huh, as the President said last night we
are in mull of a hess didn’t he? Something to the effect of that?
Interviewer: I would say so, yes.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I don’t know where it all commends to, and I don’t know how we are going to
stop it. We have ample occasions all over the globe for one thing. I think we should stop
underwriting events and I think we ought to, bring us into, closer into ourselves and stop
spreading around the world. As big as we are, as rich we are, and as successful as we are, we are
not big enough for that task. I think we’ve over, over we’ve overreached the mark. With our
associations and we have taken on too big of a load.
Interviewer: Now that you have lived in Grand Rapids 96 years what, do you think you chose a
good place to be born?
Mr. Shelby: Was it a good place to be born?
Interviewer: Do you think you chose a good place to be born?
Mr. Shelby: Well a very comfortable place, but I wouldn’t, not too inspiring. It hasn’t any
features that would give me any thrill. Not any geographical features, like San Francisco, or well
even like Chicago on the lake front. It’s just a very comfortable pleasant little town that’s all.
Very Dutchy, too Dutchy to suit me…don’t say that though. That,
Interviewer: It’s alright.
Mr. Shelby: They won’t like it. I uh…
Interviewer: Well you must have known Arthur Vanderburg.
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: You must have known Arthur Vanderburg.
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes.

�42

Interviewer: He was Dutch.
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer: Became very important.
Mr. Shelby: He was, yes a little bit too much conceited I think. He was the top of a gang of men;
probably tell them how to do the work. You know? That sort of thing. That was his, I think that
was a characteristic of him, don’t you think, you know? He was, it was just an ordinary, it was
well, I don’t know what streak of man that would be. If I saw a gang of men, uh 15 or 20 men
doing a job on a hole, it wouldn’t be the last thing in the world that I would try and stop and tell
them how to do to do the job better than they’re doing it. But that would be, he was a politician.
He would draw attention to himself. I think that type of man, isn’t, is not very deep. He was too
spectacular, and showy. Let me show you how to do that thing. That type, don’t you know? No
don’t do it that way, is that the way to do it? He was that type of person. The ordinary
conservative person wouldn’t just wouldn’t do that. He wouldn’t expose himself maybe to
ridicule. They wouldn’t wouldn’t mix up with such a situation. They wouldn’t and that’s a
perfectly natural thing. If there’s a gang of men that are cleaning up out of there, leave them
alone. They are doing the job alright. There’s no reason why I should give them any directions
how to do that. I’m not a politician I’m not after the attention. So I wouldn’t be the person to stop
and tell them how to do the job. I wouldn’t, it would be the last thing in the world that I would
do. I think he was, I think he was probably the type of man that wore external, that would keep
themselves prominent and then the in what’s going on in the role play. But there were such
demonstrations of his ability to direct others on how to do things. I don’t know how you would
estimate him.
Interviewer: Now you had a rather important political figure in your own family.
Mr. Shelby: Yes.
Interviewer: A long time ago, I believe it was your great-grandfather Cass’ brother. A Louis
Cass?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. Well I can’t tell you much about him except I know that he was, and must
have been an extremely capable man, for his time. For the first place I think he had considerable
ownership of land in Detroit. That I am not sure of, don’t you know. But he was a man that had
outstanding qualities of his make up or he wouldn’t have reached the prominent stage that he did.
Interviewer: Did your family ever talk about him, or your father or grandfather speak of him, or?
Mr. Shelby: I don’t remember, recall any specific discussion about him. No, I don’t think so.
Interviewer: I think he was the first territorial governor.
Mr. Shelby: Huh?

�43

Interviewer: He was the first territorial governor.
Mr. Shelby: Well I think that they just accept him and know that he was capable and the proper
man to be in that situation. He had the qualities of leadership. But I don’t recall that we indulged
in any praise of him or anything of that nature, or did any boasting about our relationship.
Woman: That he was an explorer, he liked exploring.
Interviewer: Well he came to Grand Rapids when he was quite elderly; I was reading about him
the other day. He came here in 1855 and there was a big turnout, a big crowd. And that reminds
me, when we were sitting here before I turned on the equipment. Tell me, tell us again about the
torchlight parade that used to figure in the political life.
Mr. Shelby: Oh, well it was a very noisy spectacular demonstrations that paraded through the
streets of the resident centrally the calling out of the candidates to their front porch to announce
what they stood for. And to advocate that they elect elect them. There was the crowd that
gradually approved of their presence and made a big fuss about them when they came out and
addressed the crowd. Then they came out and addressed the crowd and they told them what a
good Republican he was or what a good Democrat he was and how they ought to surely choose
them don’t you know.
Interviewer: Would this be a big crowd of people?
Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, maybe 3 or 4 hundred. Yeah.
Interviewer: And where did they stop? Who did they stop to see?
Mr. Shelby: Oh they would stop as soon as they got out of breath.
Interviewer: No I mean what houses did they stop at?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, I remember them more particularly the Fountain Street. That Fuel was very
prominent for years at that time.
Interviewer: Mr.Martin, Mr. Edwin F. Fuel
Mr. Shelby: Fuel, yeah. And from there they came to our house and then they went down to the
congressman’s house. They would carry banners over their shoulders and torch lights.
Interviewer: Do you think the Congressman’s name was Ford?
Mr. Shelby: Ford, Ford, M. Ace. Ford. Ford, Ford, M. Ace. Ford. Yeah, that’s right.
Woman: Was Ford a good politician?
Mr. Shelby: Right down about where the Michinmckormicks?

�44

Interviewer: I see right in there.
Mr. Shelby: He was the congressman. Well they felt pretty keenly about it and they Doanlab
Doanlab, Charles B. Doanlab. That was another one, I have forgotten what position he was after
or what he was. But there was a big interest in politics then. The town was smaller, you know.
They didn’t spread from Fairview to way up out 34th street it was very compact you know. Hall
Street was our and you were out in the country, when you got to Hall Street. It was miles, it was
miles away! That’s where the first circus came. You know, before they had their parade. And
Sweet Street was I don’t remember there being more to Grand Rapids at that time. Then you
were getting into toward North Park. That would be where the DMN Depot would’ve been don’t
you know.
Interviewer: Well we have covered quite a few topics, is there something you would like to add?
Mr. Shelby: Well you mean as for the p- I think it I have resented the outlying shopping centers.
Interviewer: You don’t like those.
Mr. Shelby: I think they ruin Grand Rapids, from downtown. I, I don’t think downtown is the
sand stool so cold is sunken just 2 blocks, just 2 or 3 blocks. It will never come back. And these
other things are vast sums of money have been invested by realtors 8 or 10, 15 miles out and they
what do they call those things?
Woman: Plazas, the Plazas.
Interviewer: The malls, and plazas
Woman: Yeah.
Mr. Shelby: Malls, you know, and well definitely they are robbing downtown.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
Mr. Shelby: A tremendous purchasing power, besides the time and effort to get there. I think it’s,
I just don’t like it to tell you the to be perfectly plain truth, I don’t like it. I’d rather have it like it
was.
Interviewer: Grand Rapids had good stores when you when you were younger?
Mr. Shelby: Yes. And I still, we had the new dish light___ none of the ones we still got. Yes, we
had a good tailor store, a good tailoring shop, yes.
Interviewer: Did you buy ready made clothes or tailored clothes in those days?
Mr. Shelby: Oh I did both, depending on my finances.

�45

Interviewer: Who was your tailor when your finances were in good shape?
Mr. Shelby: Oh, who was it? Why, he’s still there, in his name is still in that store…
Woman: Lloyd?
Interviewer: Lloyd?
Mr. Shelby: Huh?
Interviewer/Woman: Lloyd?
Mr. Shelby: Who?
Woman: Ll-Lloyd. Lloyd.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, Lloyd. Yeah, he was my tailor.
Interviewer: Oh yes.
Woman: …he never worried much about clothes in fact.
Mr. Shelby: I know my father had clothing made by Berkley R. Merlan in New York City. He
was.
Interviewer: Berkely R. Merlan.
Mr. Shelby: Yeah, he, he was, at that time 100 dollars was some money. And Father had thse
100 dollar suits built just for him. He had the money and the, a place to appear well groomed. So
he had these Me- Merlan suits built for him. So this has happened to Grand Rapids, we’ve got 2
shopping centers Plainfield Avenue was a section and I think that they take too much time and
effort, too much money away from the town. I don’t approve of them, so there you go. That’s
just my own feelings.
Interviewer: Ok. Alright.
Woman: He misses the train too, and a closer train station.
Mr. Shelby: What? I don’t think there is any very attractive, I think its lonesome and unattractive
place that they have artificially set up those costly places, and they keep telling you to go out and
get something that you can’t get downtown.
Interviewer: You got any plans for the future?
Mr. Shelby: Hmm?
Interviewer: Do you have any plans for the future?

�46

Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t know how I could have much future, to the point of years. This time, my
plans are to enjoy continuance of the things that I’m fond of: travel, and good books, and
enjoyable people.
Interviewer: And your I suppose.
Mr. Shelby: My what?
Interviewer: Your work, right?
Mr. Shelby: Well, yes. I am invested in financial work and I like it. I think I know something
about it and I think I know a doable way and what to take. But I don’t I am not aggressive
enough to purge purge a program on you.
Interviewer: Well I think we’ll end…right now.
Mr. Shelby: I think that I I was if I have a sufficient contact and experiences with the leading
railways, the leading banks, the leading institutions to be able to recommend investments that are
safe and sound and of quality and of a high grade. Stick to that and leave the rest alone. I know
nothing about speculative wealth, speculation, I’m not a type that would to take any chances, I’m
too cautious. I am too much grounded in safety.
Interviewer: Well I want to thank you Mr. Shelby for….
Mr. Shelby: I don’t know if I could tell anybody what to do, how they could change, alter or
change their lives I think that it depends entirely by their means, the situation, what they are
after. What their interested in is what they should do. I’m interested in quite a lot of things, that
probably others would not be interested in. That would be in good books, and good
companionship, and good quality of life. Of the finer things of life I enjoy, if I had any advice for
anybody else.
Interviewer: Ok, well we’ll we’ll stop at this point.
INDEX

B
Baker, Billy · 29, 32
Berguin, Mr. · 5
Bolton, Ralph · 40

Central Grammar School · 3
Coit, Dr. Henry · 8

D
Dewes, Lewis · 32
Doanlab, Charles B. · 45

C
Cass, George W. (Grandfather) · 1, 6, 7, 14, 15
Cass, Louis · 43

�47

E

O

Earl, Edward · 11, 39

O’Brien Family · 36, 37, 38

F

R

Ford, Gerald R. (President) · 45
Fountain Street School · 3
Fox, Charles · 5
Fuller, Phil · 32, 36

Reed’s Lake · 12, 13
Reedley, California · 26
Romence, Maude · 30
Rosenthal Family · 6

G

S

Gage and Benedick’s Dancing School · 11
Gilbert Family · 35
Gold, Al · 22
Greenwalt, Sam · 30, 31

Saint’s Rest Club · 5
Shelby, Bill (Son) · 27, 28
Shelby, Mary Kennedy Cass (Mother) · 1, 6, 17, 18, 20, 21,
28, 33, 34
Shelby, Violet (Sister) · 20
Shelby, William Read (Father) · 1, 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, 14, 15,
17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 28, 33, 34, 36, 38, 44, 46
Short, Jim · 31
St. Paul’s School · 7, 16, 19
Sweet Family · 37, 45

H
Havenson, Lee · 29, 32, 33
Hazeltine Family · 36
Hope Family · 37, 38

K

V
Vanderburg · 43

Knappen Family · 39
Kreuger, Iber · 29

M
Major Watson (boat) · 14
McKormick, Mr. · 35
Mcmhoffan, John · 29, 30
McNight, Anna · 35
Michigan Iron Works · 15
Miss Reed’s Kindergarten · 2
Mount Chomininee · 27

W
Westpoint · 15
Whalen, Henry D. · 6, 14, 15
Whittaker, Harry · 18, 20
Whitworth, Arthur · 32
Widdicombe Family · 3

Y
Yale University · 8, 9, 16, 18, 40

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
World War II
Don Sheridan
Length of Interview (00:48:10)
Background
Born in Allendale Township, Michigan, lived on a farm; 1926
Attended Tuttle School until 8th grade, then to Allendale High School (1941), and Coopersville
High School (1943)
Had to ride with a cousin to Coopersville until they finally got their first school bus
It wasn‟t uncommon for most kids to graduate in 8th or 10th grade; during the depression, more
would drop out
Had an uncle who had ten children and had their land foreclosed on them during the Depression;
Sheridan had a brother and two sisters
Farm was self-sustaining
Would trade goods with stores for groceries
Finished high school in June 1943
Had already signed up with the Navy before graduating
Was aware of what was going on in Europe, but not deeply involved
Remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor when in the barn listening to the radio
Navy (00:03:30)
Enlisted in his senior year in high school; Navy V-12


A program for graduating students, led to officer‟s training



Didn‟t go through with it, needed higher marks

Went into the Navy


Was a member of the Sea Scouts in high school, had little boating experience

After enlisting, sent to George Williams College in Chicago; YMCA college (00:04:45)

�

There for eight months



Training, basically, equivalent to one year in college



Still was in the officer training program, at the time



Much more confined experience



Did some physical training: marching, etc.



Others in the program were from the mid-west, right out of high school



His grades took him to boot camp

Sent to Great Lakes for basic training


Since he grew up on the farm, acclimating to the early hours and physical training wasn‟t
too hard



Discipline was never an issue

Pre-schooling for Radio Technicians in the Naval Armory in Michigan City, Indiana; 4-week
course (00:07:20)
Was sent there even though his weakest subject was math
Bottom third would be sent back to Great Lakes to choose another school
Chose signal school, better at communicating
Learned Morse code, Semaphores, flag signaling, etc.; mostly visual
Radio was still in its early stages, no short range radio
Primarily used Morse code (with a light)
Had to be able to decode 15 words per minute
Fall 1944, completed training

�Assigned (00:09:20)
Sent to another 4-week school for specialty training in Merchant‟s signaling system for convoys;
in Great Lakes
More specialized in civilian communication, different protocol
Assigned a crew at the Armed Guard Center and sent to a ship at the harbor of a loading dock in
Philadelphia
Went to the armed guard center for about a week (Boston)
Naval Guards performed gunnery and communications
Needed to know codes for both merchant marine ships and naval ships, communication in a
convoy
S.S. John M. Harland, liberty ship: 450 feet long 10,000 dwt, “Kaiser Coffins”, mass produced
(five days from start to finish), highly expendable (00:11:35)
A new group of Naval Guards going in, about 12-14 men
 Two 3inch 50 caliber machine guns, eight 20 mm anti-aircraft guns
 Some other ships had heavier guns, 4 inch or 5 inch, with a crew of 20-25 people
 Led by “90-day wonders” (Ensign or Lieutenant J.G); one was a lawyer and older
gentleman
 Four bunks in the compartment, not too crowded
Went down the river from Philadelphia to Chesapeake Bay stayed there for three days to
assemble a convoy (100 ships) (00:14:25)
Early November, headed for Straits of Gibraltar; some of the stormiest weather when first
heading out
Fortunately Sheridan didn‟t get seasick, but most others did; not too worried about capsizing
Had morning and evening watches, alternated signaling hours


Still on duty during storms; preferred being able to see the waves than feel the motion

Remembers the crew being calm about it, was routine
The rest of the voyage was relatively smooth afterward, no U-boat scares

�Very little communication with the escort
Would get messages, had to pass the messages „down the line‟
Ships were usually several hundred yards apart
Middle East, North Africa (00:18:40)
After the Straits of Gibraltar, the convoy broke up to sail independently
Went through the Suez Canal, never lost steerage way until the Red Sea


Entered at Port Said, Egypt



Saw incredible sights of other smaller boats sailing, primarily skiffs and rowboats



Continued down the Red Sea

Stopped at Aden, Captain and Lieutenant went ashore
Proceeded around the Arabian Peninsula and into the Persian Gulf
Made port at Khorramshar, Iran (Persia at the time) where cargo would be sent to Russia


Trucks, crates, lubricating oil, etc.



Everyone allowed ashore



Segregated from the civilian/local population, not a very populated location



Spent two weeks unloading

Proceeded upriver Shatt al-Arab River (juncture of Tigris and Euphrates) up to Basra, Iraq and
loaded barley destined for Sicily (00:22:18)
Iraq was considered the „bread-basket‟ of the Middle East
While there, the merchant crew demanded they be paid if they ran the life boat as a
liberty launch
Instead Sheridan steered the life boat himself
Seldom went ashore (in Basra)
Went reverse route and through the Suez again, never set foot on the African continent (Egypt)
(00:23:50)

�Sent to Catania, Sicily and unloaded barely, then to Palermo, Sicily where an Army Truck Tire
Plant there
Proceeded to North Africa, for one night, to load ballast; then home
Catania [Sicily] was a lovely city, about the size of Grand Rapids, during spring
Bum boats would buy cigarettes from the men for $20 a carton (they cost only 50 cents),
had a lot of spending money
Merchant marine sailors were a congenial crew, sometimes worked with them; 40
men
Close to Mt. Etna, didn‟t do much sight-seeing
Pacific Northwest (00:26:30)
Went back to the States, picked up a convoy in Gibraltar


A routine voyage; when entering the Gulf Stream (visible due to the water‟s change in
color), the convoy would move into a diamond-shape pattern due to its strong currents,
then back to a square-shape pattern

Back in the U.S. April ‟45, given a four-day leave; the ship had to be fumigated because
cockroaches were in the barley
Went to Norfolk Naval Supply Depot, to get essentials for the ship
Back to a convoy down to the Panama Canal
Three days west of the Canal when the War in Europe ended (00:28:25)
Went to a Naval supply depot in Pearl Harbor, there for a week
Back to the Pacific Northwest, Puget Sound area
Started to load lumber around that area, several small towns
Down to the Columbia River area, then in the Washington area
4th of July ‟45, headed west, again by themselves


Didn‟t have much to do as Signalmen

Beautiful voyage, very peaceful, would sleep on deck on a hammock
Didn‟t do much, had a record player, would read; nothing organized

�All the stewards‟ crew was from mainland China (00:30:30)


Steward‟s Mate would deliver them food, would order food from them, as well; ate
very well



Had a totally different culture from the other crew, but got along very well



Rest of the crew were generally Americans

Took the lumber to Manila (Philippines) (00:31:45)


Arrived 1st August, went ashore



Anchored out in Manila Bay



Knew a high school buddy who was in the Army there; stayed with his bunch for a few
days



Manila was badly damaged, Japanese snipers still there

When the war ended, was a lot of commotion; bells, guns, etc.
Unloading lumber (same night as the end of the war with Japan) and a ship across the
pier was unloading beer (00:33:33)
Had quite a party with them
Didn‟t see much of the civilian population there, except when he was with his Army buddy
A couple weeks afterwards, loaded Army equipment (trucks, tanks) and took it down to Panay
Island in a city of Iloilo
Then loaded 1500 troops with no provisions for passengers; soldiers had their c-rations and
Lister bags


Took them Tacloban, Leyte; saw some of the biggest poker games with that bunch

Took on some saltwater-ballast, then headed to San Francisco (00:36:30)


Tied up to the pier for 5 days, stayed on the ship

Took the ship out to Anchorage, Sheridan wound up being the helmsmen on that voyage because
the crew were on leave

�Went home on 30-day leave


Had a good time, spent time with friends and family; very relaxed

Discharged (00:38:15)
Reported to Detroit then to a train in Chicago, then the Civilian Pullman Deluxe Train back to
Seattle
Bremerton Naval Operations in Puget Sound
There for two a three weeks, put on the MA Force (police force in the Navy)
Many men assigned to a Battleship Maryland, which was being mothballed (00:38:50)


Rated people usually don‟t do the work, but there were so many of them that they had to



There for a couple of months

March (‟46), sent to Great Lakes to be discharged
Civilian Life (00:39:40)
Went to work for a cousin who was a plastering contractor after being discharged (‟46)
Bought a ‟26 Model-T Sedan
Saw a friend from the Navy (met in Honolulu), went to a high school baseball game
Met his wife at that game, been married to her for 61 year
Worked as a laborer in a Reynolds‟s Metals Company, Aluminum Extrusion Plant
Crane-follower for a while, then Crane Operator
Then went to another company in Coopersville (Air Control) after a strike in the previous closed
it down
Worked maintenance labor for the summer, then back to Coopersville
Korean War broke out and Reynolds‟s reopened, worked as a Crane operator, 15 years
Worked his way up to Production Scheduling, then Accounting
1963, offered to go to White Bear Lake, Minnesota as Management
Opened the first production company for aluminum beverage cans

�There for a year, then decided to go back home
Big Dutchman, Purchasing Department
Involved in the local schools; schools were trying to bring together a high school district
Eventually it was passed, got bonds to build a school; Sheridan was put on the board
Third year on the board, no administrative staff, asked Sheridan to come in for ½ days
Began full days and became Business Manager and Treasurer for 20 years (public schools)
Retired in 1991
Afterthoughts (00:46:15)
Service made him more worldly and aware; at ease with people, broad education
No individual incidents that stand out in his mind; very peaceful in the Pacific
Saw many interesting things (Suez Canal, etc.); poverty in Middle East was more prominent

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Rachel Shilakes
Total Time (01:05:55)
Introduction (00:00:09)
 Rachel was born on November 14th, 1983 in Rochester, Michigan and grew up in Romeo,
Michigan (00:00:26)
 Her immediate family included Rebecca, her mother, father and brother (00:00:36)
◦ She had always been intending to go into the military and in 2005 she finally joined; her
brother, father, uncles, and grandfathers all went into the military- she joined the Army
(00:02:14)
◦ She went directly into the National Guard; it allowed her to follow on with her civilian
career as well as provide service (00:02:57)
▪ She worked with recruiters six months prior to starting basic training; there was a lot of
useful learning she gained from this experience (00:04:26)
▪ She went through basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri in January of 2006- her
Advanced Individual Training was done at Ft. Sam Houston, Texas (00:04:46)
 At basic training the physical training was intensive but they started relatively slow
and worked their way up (00:06:04)
 She was in a unit that had both men and women and ended up working out very well
(00:06:30)
◦ A third of her training regiment was female (00:07:02)
◦ Basic training lasted around eight weeks plus a week of ceremonies and such
(00:09:02)
▪ Triage was one of the biggest focuses in Rachel's AIT at Ft. Sam Houston; it
included how to deal with the severity of injuries (00:11:28)
▪ Rachel was assigned to the 1171st Area Support Medical Company out of
Ypsilanti, Michigan (00:14:12)
 Rachel and her unit provide vaccinations, health assessments for all
soldiers, and soldier readiness; in addition, they are required to be
prepared to be deployed and operate a field medical hospital (00:14:38)
 She did that for about six months and was tasked out to a regional
training institute in Battle Creek, Michigan (00:16:55)
◦ Rachel worked as the medical Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) in
charge (00:17:09)
◦ She put herself on the National Deployment List in hopes of being
deployed (00:17:44)
◦ In November 2007 she received notice to be deployed; she would be
assigned to the 1463rd Transportation Company out of Wyoming,
Michigan (00:18:01)
◦ Rachel did some refresher medical training for a little over a month
before her and the unit flew out to Kuwait and then to Iraq (00:20:51)
Iraq (00:20:51)
 Rachel and her unit flew into Camp Bucca [?] in Iraq near the Kuwait border near the Persian

�

Gulf (00:21:46)
The first two months their Rachel worked in a medical clinic for roughly 200 detainees by
providing medical care, evaluations, medications for about ten hours a day (00:23:11)
◦ She had a pretty good relationship with her detainees as far as how they treated her went
(00:24:09)
◦ Her living situation wasn't too bad she lived in 15x20 steel constructed pods with four to
five other people (00:26:28)
▪ The local population understood the United States wasn't going to be there forever and
the situation stayed the same for Rachel (00:29:09)
▪ Rachel spent about two months working with detainees then spent the rest of her time
working for the Air Force on area security (00:29:35)
 The hostile activity started to ramp up as Rachel was leaving but overall there wasn't
much (00:32:33)
 As a medic Rachel carried a M4 Rifle and a M9 Pistol (00:33:26)
◦ The local population was mixed on the United States being there as it wasn't
uncommon for bricks or rotten food to be thrown (00:34:28)
▪ Rachel mentions that sometimes the local population although very poor
were very hospitable and would offer whatever they had (00:36:36)
▪ Overall the morale of the American forces declined over time- she mentions
the Air Force would come in very motivated and positive but the
environment they were in wore off on a lot of people (00:37:34)
▪ Rachel had plenty of opportunities to speak with family and friends due to
the availability of internet access (00:38:48)
 To reflect on the decreased deployment numbers in Iraq, non essential
personal were sent to Kuwait (00:41:23)

Back to the United States (00:41:49)
 Rachel went through out-processing in New Jersey for about two weeks; she had to go through
extensive briefings, out-processing for medical and then she was sent home (00:42:17)
◦ After she went home, Rachel enrolled at Macomb Community College to get back into her
civilian career (00:42:35)
▪ Rachel heard from a friend that the 507th Engineer Battalion needed medics for their
deployment and was given the go ahead to go around early 2011 (00:43:32)
▪ They shipped out in late Spring of 2012 for Afghanistan (00:44:17)
 The operation her unit was going on was to look for IED's and supporting the
engineer companies (00:44:54)
Afghanistan (00:47:07)
 She and her unit flew out to Manas AFB in Kyrgyzstan and then to Camp Leatherneck in
Afghanistan (00:47:34)
◦ Within her battalion, the injuries were relatively low but their sister company did have a
fatality and sent a couple out via medevac for blast injuries (00:49:54)
◦ The medics rotated on missions; on one of her last operations Rachel's vehicle rolled over a
pressure plate IED and she was injured (00:51:17)
▪ All of the injuries sustained in that instance was from blast pressure and not from any
foreign shrapnel or anything like that (00:53:33)
▪ Rachel was flown out from Kandahar AFB and eventually to Ft. Belvoir in Virginia for

�surgery (00:55:08)
Back to the United States (00:55:08)
 Rachel was at Ft. Belvoir til June of 2013; she underwent therapy and a surgery while being in a
wheel chair for two months (00:56:17)
 Although she wanted to rotate back to her unit, the process is quite costly and the National
Guard did not want her to (00:57:56)
 Currently Rachel serves with the 1171st as a medic- she still goes to school and keeps in contact
with the 507th (00:58:22)
◦ She comments that her life really started when she came into the military- the lifestyle and
deployment changes people; she didn't come home as the same person and she'll never be
the same person she was (01:00:45)
◦ Rachel comments that a lot of the flak the Veterans Affairs receives is quite justified and
provides an example of that happening to her friend (01:03:08)

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                    <text>John Shipley (7:56)
-Served in the United States Army and the National Guard from 1971-2006
-Fought in Viet Nam, the Cold War, and Panama
(0:30) Life Before Enlistment
• He had been a student at Grand Rapids Junior College
• John is from Detroit, MI
(1:20) Reasons for Joining the Army
• The timing was right
• Many friends were coming home “in boxes” so he did what he felt was right
• His father was in the Army in World War Two with General Patton
(1:49) First Days in the Service
• He was sent to Fort Polk in Louisiana for training
• They were “fun-filled” days
• This is when he first started spending time with people from other parts of the
country
• He found out that there was more to the world than just Michigan
(2:15) Service
• He was in the US Army and the National Guard, 3rd Battalion, 6th Infantry
• He was in the 46th Infantry Brigade, Engineer Brigade from the 38th Infantry
Division
• He is now retired from the service
(2:40) Most Memorable Moments
• John enjoyed watching people whom he had mentored get promoted
• He liked to see people succeed
(3:03) How the Military Changed His Life
• The service gave him great insight as to why the world is the way that it is
• He learned about the actions of nation-states
• He was educated on many other aspects of the world
• He made many friends in the service
(4:00) Duties in the Service
• John started out as a combat medic in Texas
• He advanced to the Non-Commissioned Officer Corps
• He retired as the Command Sergeant of the Engineer Brigade, 38th Infantry
Division
(4:20) Experience with Combat
• He experienced some combat

�(4:40) Spending of Time
• Many jobs were assigned to him that were extremely challenging
• They spent 24 hours a day being busy
• There was barely any free time, but when there was he liked to play poker
• Often he trained and mentored others
(5:15) Basic Training
• Started in 1971 and there are many things from that time that are now out of date,
such as hand-to-hand combat
• He learned survival skills, how to work well with others, to respect others
opinions and how to work well in a team successfully
• The drill sergeants were mean
(6:15) Most Important Lessons Learned
• Respect others opinions
• Everyone has a right to their own opinion
(7:00) Post Cold War
• He worked for a Michigan telephone company as a manager
• He retired from that job just near the same time that he retired from the National
Guard

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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