879 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb8fc618da6156755419ca9c0b7e1119.jpg e84d1d6e139a343a8fc697685d2010a5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_LS00061 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1919 Title A name given to the resource Shantung canal and mossy trees Description An account of the resource Black and white lantern slide of a wooden bridge crossing a canal flanked by moss-covered trees in the Shantung (Shandong) province of China. Subject The topic of the resource Lantern slides China Shandong Peninsula (China) Waterways Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52cb1f2bd1f1feb77a5ea72191c57829.jpg e3d1443212ed514adf53741dea89dd8d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_LS00060 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1919 Title A name given to the resource Shantung fortified hill Description An account of the resource Black and white lantern slide of a fortified hill taken in the Shantung (Shandong) province of China. Subject The topic of the resource Lantern slides China Shandong Peninsula (China) Fortification Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cefdf7102f7c9895a3aa25631b530470.jpg 32877c4d92f435f238018c7003fcc5da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_LS00062 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1919 Title A name given to the resource Shantung graves Description An account of the resource Black and white lantern slide of small mounded graves in the Shantung (Shandong) province of China. Subject The topic of the resource Lantern slides China Shandong Peninsula (China) Cemeteries Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97eda779282629517dbbdcf56abd4117.jpg 7b207fb182a3f61e3b2d3ea77b471045 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_LS00064 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1919 Title A name given to the resource Shantung office compound Description An account of the resource Black and white lantern slide of a covered sidwalk net to a building in Shantung (Shandong), China. Subject The topic of the resource Lantern slides China Shandong Peninsula (China) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8c82fbb79cf1ae996a22e38b218f7ee3.mp4 27d59c9aa8551e9ce631d8f552f6196b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fd994e0e5e1f73ed51f0e4fc1e35a40.pdf 761cce097de9fd063095a5cc2b833f2d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Charles Shapin (01:11:27) Childhood (00:10:18) born in Brooklyn, raised in the Syosset Bay neighborhood near the ocean (00:26:10) his father was in the wholesale fish business, his mother was a housewife; both parents were born in the United States Pre-war Atmosphere (00:51:15) on Sunday morning, December 7, 1941, he came home from a handball game to listen to the Brooklyn Dodgers play the Giants; they were listening to the game when the news broke: Japanese were bombing Pearl Harbor (00:56:20) the atmosphere changed � British battleship Prince of Wales and British battlecruiser Repulse sunk � the Japanese invaded the Philippines � his darkest moment was when Singapore fell; Singapore had been the “fortress of fortresses” � his parents sent him out that night to a delicatessen and he realized the world had changed � the atmosphere, the idea of the war, it was “very bad” (02:20:29) when he was 13 or 14 years old, Chamberlain made "peace" with Hitler: “we knew it was temporary, you can’t make peace with a dictator” (02:56:14) he knew about Nazis, the concentration camps—but not death camps—the persecution of Jews, Gypsies (03:17:27) they had some German refugees—Jewish kids—coming into his school and neighborhood (03:54:23) Roosevelt speech: “your sons will not be sent overseas to fight in a foreign war while we are being shelled” � Lend Lease was going on, Selective Service and National Guard had been established � Gerald Pershing: 50 destroyers for naval bases � “convoying ships is an act of war” The United States and Mr. Shapin enter World War Two. (05:10:00) Germany declared war on US 2 days after Pearl Harbor � "one of Hitler's biggest mistakes" � he passed by a newsstand on his way home and saw the news; “it was a shock” (06:15:01) graduated from high school at age of 17 and half, started college a couple months later; finished a year of college (07:01:10) he went to the draft board: a bunch of people there wanted to get deferment, while he wanted to sign a waiver to get in, and he did (07:47:05) a fellow he had been in many classes with at high school went into the �army with him on the same day and they came out on the same � he still communicates with Ken, Kenny (as of the time of filming) Mr. Shapin’s Military training and experience prior to entering the European war theater. (08:33:15) spent 4-5 days at Camp Upton on Long Island before receiving his shipping orders (08:56:24) put on the Long Island Railroad, a local commuter train to Penn Station; at Penn Station a troop train was waiting; the train headed south through Baltimore, Washington DC, Richmond, and the next afternoon it ended up in field; the train went off on a siding at Fort Bragg, NC (10:21:14) he had passed the physical at Camp Upton: he had a perforated ear drum, and the doctor called over a second doctor who blew on it—it moved, and therefore, it was OK (10:57:27) he was designated “special assignment” and put into field artillery using the 240mm howitzer—the biggest gun in the field artillery (12:20:03) there was drilling and field exercises, he was in the survey section; one of the exercises was “taping”: � a 100-foot steel tape was handled by a team of two, with the second guy winding up the guy in front: metal pins, each with a hole or loop in it, were dropped and the tape was passed through the loops; the second guy was supposed to count the pins � the purpose of surveying was to locate on a map targets, observation points, and gun positions—all part of gunfire control � the army had grid maps of all of Europe: “grid north,” not the magnetic north was used (16:08:10) his first unit mainly from New York, average people, some “characters” � in basic training they learned military courtesy and also about gas masks (17:53:04 ) he was at Fort Bragg until Nov 1943; he had applied with his buddy for “ASTP”, the Army Specialized Training Program and they went to John B. Stetson University in Florida; next, they were sent to Rollins College for basic engineering training, and then to CCNY in New York � the program folded in five weeks, there were so many casualties in Africa � he was put into the infantry (19:55:06) sent to Fort Polk in Louisiana, where they faced wild pigs and ticks � they would take their clothes off and remove each others ticks using matches: they held the matches to the ticks derrieres � he has tick scars (21:31:24) opposing them was the 92nd infantry division, an all Black division that shot blanks at them when they would cross the Sabine River in assault boats (21:50:16) he got himself back into artillery; they returned to Camp Refuge in Kentucky, and he was interviewed by the warrant officer, Mr. Tucker; volunteered for overseas service and the orders came through � given furlough that night, he hadn't qualified with the .45 pistol � he had to fire one before he could go on furlough—his ears rung until he got home to New York �� you have to be in the outfit six weeks before they can send you overseas, so he had to return to camp from New York, after furlough The War in Europe (24:07:25) in November of 1944, he went overseas with the 75th infantry division � his first “outfit” was the 551st Field Artillery Battalion � he had transferred to artillery, but he had ten months infantry experience as a rifleman, and he was put back into the survey section (25:23:15) crossing the Atlantic Ocean in November of 1944 � it was as “smooth as glass” � they went over unescorted on the HMS Aquitania � he remarked on how the Englishmen "destroy any food," and “guys were complaining” • the general of the division, “followed by an army of flunkies,” walked down the second row and stopped, asked a soldier how the food was and was he getting enough to eat; to the dismay of the others, that soldier answered "Oh yes sir." (28:40:00) they were worried about U-Boats but made it to Scotland safely, to Greenock in the north near Glasgow; he was put on an LST ship and sent to Cardiff, in Wales, for a couple of weeks; Cardiff had “the worst climate in the world”—it rained every day (29:40:10) his impressions of Britain: they got passes and took taxis around London; once they even saw Churchill getting into a car as they passed a gate on Downing Street (30:36:23) one day at Paddington Station � he met a “very pretty girl” he described as an English WAC, the equivalent to an American WAC � MPs asked where his pass was, and he was taken to MP headquarters; he apparently didn't have the right kind of pass, it wasn’t supposed to mention his outfit � the girl’s name was Molly Fletcher—he remembers her name “to this day” (31:27:28) in early December of ’44, he rode the train to Southampton, where he was put on an LST ship again, and he met a sailor who was a neighbor of his; they were on the LST for three days, riding around in the [English] Channel (33:26:14) riding through France, near the Belgian border � people were waving, cheering, giving them flowers as they rode through France � “the [Battle of the] Bulge” broke out on the 15th,” but they didn’t know that � he manned a machine gun in the truck—he had been sent to machine gun school at Fort Fisher, in NC � the weather was sunny for a couple of days and then cold; the clouds broke, B17s came over and he saw them being shot down � finally they were told about “the Bulge,” and they would be opposing the 1st SS Panzer division that had “massacred a bunch of [Allied] soldiers at Malmedy” (39:00:08) one of his favorites in Belgium was the “grease gun,” a submachine gun �(40:04:02) the artillery was used immediately, “you don’t keep artillery in reserve, you keep infantry in reserve” � they had to “register” the battery: they would fire, and if the shell landed where they hoped it would, “you’ve registered the battery” � they had what was called a “K,” a correction: if they thought they had to aim “here” but the shell wasn’t landing “here,” maybe off by five degrees, they were given a “K” � their captain “registered” the battalion, “I think it took him God knows how many rounds” (40:51:28) it got bitterly cold and the snow cracked under their feet; they slept in houses or barns; the battalion commander was “very solicitous” and always tried to get them houses; the gun crews had to sleep in tents near the guns (42:23:21) his duty was in the survey section and he went out with a survey party, after the guns were set up � the other guys were jealous because they would go out on the first day and take the best house; they would choose the kitchen among the rooms if they could, because they could cook � when the survey was done, they would hide, or they were put on guard duty until the guns were moved again; how often the guns were moved varied (45:55:01) Shapin read “later” that Patton wanted to attack the flanks of “the Bulge” but Eisenhower wanted “a head-on assault,” and there were a “lot of casualties” � the Germans fought them house to house back to the German border (46:39:20) he was then sent to Holland, a "quiet sector" then moved out to the Rhine under Montgomery’s control � there were 56 battalions of field artillery running through their fire direction � the next morning 600 guns opened fire; they did “such a good job” that two days later they ran short of shells Race Relations in the military and in civilian life. (48:46:09) the Dutch had very rarely seen black soldiers; Shapin described how, in one town, black soldiers driving trucks noticed that the native people were “very curious, and they gunned the engines to make them backfire; the people asked, regarding the black soldiers, “What are those?” and the Americans explained that they were black soldiers; then the Dutch asked what the black soldiers were “good for” (49:28:20) his parents had visited him in Fort Bragg, NC: his mother had relatives in the South and had been in the South, but his father was “amazed” by “colored” waiting rooms, fountains, etc. (49:58:24) on a public bus once, they were not on duty, and a black soldier got on and sat in the back; a bunch of soldiers, mostly from New York, asked why he had to sit in the back, he wore the same uniform as they did (50:26:28) at Camp Refuge, black soldiers were not allowed to guard the nurses quarters because the nurses were white; three white privates had to guard the nurses, and he was one of them �(52:04:00) it was culture shock for northern whites, and southern Blacks as well; most training camps were in the South Impressions of Germany and Germans (53:05:04)crossing into Germany in the spring of 1945: � it was richer, their houses were much nicer � bedsheets representing white flags of surrender were hung out � according to Shapin, referring to the Germans, “you never met one who was a Nazi”; they were all “nicht Nazis”; there was a “no fraternization” rule (53:56:00) he mentioned guarding some hostels, after the fighting ended, that were full of German wounded; he had very little contact with Germans after the war though they would ask questions sometimes (56:02:20) they [Germans] were digging in garbage cans, they were in “bad shape” The war ends. (56:24:02) “we didn't know about the concentration camps”: � while in France waiting to go to Japan, Eisenhower ordered everyone to watch films about the camps � German prisoners there who watched the films believed that it was “Allied propaganda” (57:01:00) he was in Germany until late spring, until VE day in May, and not long after that they were sent to France to a redeployment camp � he had a three-day pass to Paris—a couple of times he had passes to Paris (58:01:28) he was offered an all-expense-paid, seven-day trip to Switzerland, on furlough, and he was on a train to Switzerland when Japan surrendered on VJ day � the trip to Switzerland was very nice; he stayed in a nice hotel in Lucerne, where they were asked if they wanted to various other hotels, and next time they ended up in Hotel Stocken, a “very fancy” hotel in St. Gallen,; later, he went to a hotel on Lake Geneva A Choice between school and a resort. (01:00:55:02) in September of 1945 they had an offer, if they had been in college before, of choosing between two “colleges” the army ran, where they could earn credit while waiting to go home � he and his buddy, Kenny, both had this option, and they decided in favor of Shriffen in England, because “the French don’t like Americans”; he found out that the other school, Biarritz, in France, was a resort; they had passes to London on the weekends Returning to the US. (01:02:15:08) they were supposed to go home on the aircraft carrier Wasp � Wasp got damaged in a storm, and the Lake Champlain was sent to them � they “hit five storms in ten days”; this was in January of 1946; sailors were vomiting � they landed in Staten Island; his parents and Ken's parents had passes to �meet them at the ship (01:03:17:25) they had to go to Fort Dix “to get out”; the army lost their papers (Shapin’s and Ken’s) and they had to spend seven days in Fort Dix instead of two; (01:04:55:22) there were German prisoners in Fort Dix Reflections on Europe. (01:07:03:14) “soldiers like to loot,” looting was “a problem” (01:07:11:16) the Germans gave "mutter medals": Americans would try to bring these home if they could find them in the Germans’ houses; Shapin himself “looked and looked” for one of these (01:08:29:25) in England the prostitutes were everywhere; in Paris they [prostitutes] were everywhere Reflecting on the war. (01:10:03:06) it gave him a view: he is conservative, pro-military (01:10:13:08) he can understand opposition to war and the Iraq war, but regarding the attacks on recruiting stations during the Iraq War: “it’s treason” (01:11:27:15) his feeling is that is that there are people who hate this country [United States]; he loves it: "my fellow Jews aren't persecuted here" � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShapinC Title A name given to the resource Shapin, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shapin, Charles Description An account of the resource Charles Shapin served in the US Army during World War II. He trained both as an artillerist and an infantryman, and eventually shipped over to Europe with an artillery battalion attached to the 75th Division. He saw action in the Battle of the Bulge in Belgium, and later in the Netherlands and Germany. He provides detailed discussions of training and army life, as well as of his experiences in Europe, both in and out of combat. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0221808557d54faad6feb1f23759d3b9.jpg 8a09c1165868f5aeecd326abad32bcfd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShapiroHarold Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1983 Title A name given to the resource Shapiro, Harold Description An account of the resource Harold Shapiro Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1983s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2d6c28f00f48da393f9f315a71a014e.jpg 03c5993e99b694683ff3ec3977d8b645 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SharpCindy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Sharp, Cindy Description An account of the resource Cindy Sharp Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af846afe1ab23ebb9912bad024500ab0.jpg 9f01f464f354056965975df4f25c2a91 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SharphornDavid_Photo01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Sharphorn, David Description An account of the resource David Sharphorn, Physical Education Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1be34f85493ceca1b08a5d4304beffe0.jpg 52aec55aeee0f86c1008cf31205bd0a5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SharphornDavid_Photo02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Sharphorn, David Description An account of the resource David Sharphorn, Physical Education Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/32db391245bb7c89f037573dacea8e21.jpg d65548b5e28c32099da2c72055eb49e1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SharphornDavid_Photo03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Sharphorn, David Description An account of the resource David Sharphorn, Physical Education Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bfea145c418e5f8c6bd4521554dd713.jpg 05f6509f16112ffe82f5f59ef0f88729 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SharphornDavid_Photo04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Sharphorn, David Description An account of the resource David Sharphorn, Physical Education Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5eb9a8f43d0c1382a8ef01aa4b029187.mp4 3ee1aa05cc6b0b71512d89b8e91cc71d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b9bf97a8f22d4b8f0d63571fe0fdbcd.pdf 829e87db835168f2f7a3c6797ea056ee PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee: Richard Shaull Length of Interview: 00:53:12 Background               He was born May 16th, 1921 in Lansing, Michigan. His father was a cabinet maker. He owned his own store and during the 20’s and 30’s, his cabinets would fill 2/3 of the stores in Lansing. With some difficulty, they did make it through the depression, but lost their home in the process. He would live with his grandparents until they were able to get on their feet again. Richard was born a twin but his twin died as an infant. He did have a sister too, but she died several years ago. He would graduate from Central High School in Lansing in 1939. After he graduated, he would attend Lansing Community College, which is now Davenport. He would go for business administration. It would be while he was in college when the war started and he would enlist into the Army Air Force. He was always interested in what was happening in the world and knew about was what going on in the war before Pearl Harbor. He knew that he would be a part of it and was surprised that it took as long as it did. He had heard about Pearl Harbor when he was out visiting a friend. He knew then that that was it. His dad was in the Air Corps during WWI and he knew right away that he wanted to serve in the air force. While he wanted to be a fighter pilot, his dad served as a ground crew. He had experience in an airplane before he joined. He took a ride in an open cockpit in Lansing, where they were giving rides. He went to Kalamazoo to enlist on October 31, 1942. Once he was enlisted, he had to take a physical and mental exam. The mental exam he would pass with flying colors. His physical did not go so well. He had glasses and an overbite. The doctors told him that he would never be a pilot, but suggested artillery spotting. Training (6:00)   He would take training for this at Hoosier Field, Indiana, near Indianapolis. There he would learn how to fly a Piper Cub. In that training, he had to do ground flying. He had to fly over haystacks, barns and had to stay as close to the ground as possible. During combat, the lower to the ground you were, the safer you would be, as you were not such an easy target. �      He learned out to fly it over the 500 racetrack [Indianapolis Brickyard]. He would also learn how to fly a plane in a winter storm. He would get conventional basic training after he completed the Piper Cub training. He would go to the Jefferson Barracks in St. Louis, Missouri to get his basic training. They would give you exam there to see what you would do best. He ended up going to radio mechanic school in Madison, Wisconsin. He stopped the training in the Piper Cub training because there were too many people. From there he would be transferred back into the regular air force and then to radio school. While at radio school, he would learn the radio system on a B-17. He graduated from that and sent to Europe. Europe (8:45)  He was put on the Louis Pasteur in the NY/NJ area.  It was a French ship and was very interesting. There was a great big opening that they would use to get to their quarters and the next three days were horrible.  Many of them had never been on a big boat and the ocean. Seasickness really took over and it was a mess. The weather wasn’t bad, but the swells were enough for most of them.  The ship itself was converted in order to carry its passengers. The officers and higher up would stay in state rooms, while anyone lower would stay in big rooms below.  In one room, there were probably 100 men. There was about 3000 on the boat total.  They would travel by themselves on the ocean. It was a late model French ship that was quite speedy.  He arrived in England about 8 days later.  They would go up to the northern part of Ireland and came down by the Isle of Man and landed at Liverpool.  Along the way there were not U-boat scares.  He landed in England around March 1944.  When he got there he was assigned to a general air force unit, in a small town near Bristol in Wales.  From there they would give different assignments throughout the Air Force.  It would be then that he would find out that they had too many radio mechanics, but they did need a typist in a photo intelligence detachment. He certainly did not mind as he was a decent typist. So he was assigned to the 20th Air Force Intelligence Detachment.  He would go by Stonehenge on his way to London for his new position. (12:30)  He was quartered just outside of London. His office was at Cromwell’s headquartering in London.  There he was a chief clerk of the outfit and he had to do the morning reports and all that office work. He would also learn what they were going to do once people got over to Europe.  He would be taking bombing pictures and see if they had to bomb again.  He would also help in creating a mosaic of the coast from Norway down to France. This would help them in determining where they were going to send troops into Europe. It would also be used in helping identify bombing targets along the coast as well. �            He was working in his office and all of a sudden the intercom when off and told them all to go outside and look at the sky. He did and they sky was covered with planes, gliders and dirigibles. You couldn’t see the sky at all. It was awe inspiring. (14:25) He did not get a lot of information in the office that he worked in. He would also move around a lot too. He spent 7 months in England, 7 months in France, 7 months in Belgium and 3 months in Germany. While he was in England, he would meet a nice lady at the USO office. She would often invite him to her house to visit with her husband and son. This is what he would do most of his spare time while he was in England. During that time, there would be many buzz bombs that would fly over England. If you heard a buzz bomb motor stop, you had to take cover. One night, he was on the way to the house for dinner with the family, when he heard a motor stop. He did not know what to do and took cover behind a bus. He remembers there was broken glass all around him and he was knocked down. He suffered no injury. He would continue on to the home, where he would find the wife under a large, heavy table, and the rest of the family in a bomb shelter. She had claustrophobia. He has a lot of nice memories of the time he spent with that family. The family would migrate to California after the war and he would see them a couple times after that. One evening on leave, he and a couple of soldiers got a hotel for the night. Suddenly the sirens started going off and they did not know what to do, so they stayed in bed while bombs went off all around them. Fortunately, none hit their hotel. All the big cities in England would have dirigibles [barrage balloons] outside the city that would have mesh lining hanging down in order to catch and stop the buzz bombs from entering the city. Some of them were higher than the dirigibles, so some got through, but it did stop most of them. At the time he was doing his normal office work. It would be later that he would get his training for bomb assessment. He would then head to France 7 months after he was in England. France (19:15)  He flew on a B-24. That was the first time he had a gun issued to him and he didn’t know how to use it.  He was flown to Chartres, France.  He would sit at the cathedral nearby and watch the people. It was there that he decided that he wanted to learn French. By the time he got back to the US, he could speak it fairly fluently.  He was based at Chartres for only a short time. He would then be transferred to Reims. Just as soon as they would capture the places, they would be about 35 miles behind the lines.  His father had been stationed in Reims while serving in WWI. At a souvenir shop there he would purchase a drawing of a cathedral, because his dad bought one during WWI. He grew up looking at that picture and wanted one of his own.  He would begin doing his bombing assessment work here. �                      A P-38 Lightning that had camera in the nose of it would go with the bombers on their mission. Sometimes during, and always after, they would take pictures of the bombing that had taken place. It would be determined by the pictures if they needed to go back and bomb again. His job would be to type of the negative that went with the photos. He would not do any of the interpreting. Instead, he would take the data and type it up. There were about 8 enlisted men and about 10 officers working at the office. Major Porter was the CO of the office. His rank at the time was Staff Sergeant. All the people working there had special skills and were of a higher rank. The buildings he would stay in had decent living conditions and he would have time, especially in Reims to wander the town. He would become acquainted with a French man who was in the French Air Force at the USO. The man would invite him to meet his family as well. He would go there a lot for dinners during his stay in France. He would be able to practice his French there. Reims was in fairly good condition, not a lot of damage done, unlike England. While he was there, he would write home every other day or so. And once in a while his mother would send him a can of spice cake. (24:30) Before he went over, he set up a code so they would know where he was. He would use family names to let him know where they were. For example, Aunt Daisy was England. He was never caught. He would only have names for bigger towns. He did get to go to Paris. While he was in Reims, he took an R&R down to Nice and he would go through Paris by truck. On his way back, he would stop in Paris. He loved it so much he would ask his CO if he could spend a week there. He was allowed. They had hotels where he could stay. He would go through the Red Cross, who would assign him to a hotel. While he was there he would see the Eiffel Tower, Napoleon’s grave, and all the sights. He would also go to a brothel while he was there too. It was something very new for him. He was pretty good at staying out of trouble. He did not drink, smoke or sleep with the prostitutes. There were no discipline issues in the office that he worked in. His CO had actually attended college in Paris. That was one reason he was allowed to stay for a week in Paris. He enjoyed his work very much and does not regret not going into a combat assignment. After places were captured he would be part of a group that would go and inspect the area. One of them was the Maginot Line. After that area had been bombed, he took his CO out to the nearest pill box. While they went out there, there were signs saying “MINES” “DANGER” and there were dead cattle all over. He CO got a long branch and waved it along the front of the jeep while they headed toward the pill box. Richard did not want to go in when he had gotten there. His CO would go in and inspect the place until he was satisfied that the reports he got were correct. �   The officers would also inspect things like railroad facilities and bridges. He would go out on some of these missions, but not all of them. While he spent time in France, he would constantly be moving while the line moved. He would spend the longest in Namur, Belgium. Belgium (30:50)      There he was stationed in a vacated German office building. There, one day he was out on a path, taking in the sites he came across a young Belgium man near the railroad tracks. He did not know if the man spoke English, so he asked him if French where a particular tourist site was. The man, who eventually pointed him in the right direction, was so happy that Richard spoke French that he invited him back to his house to meet his mother and sister. He would go there all his spare time. He would have a room of his own all weekend and the mother would press his uniform and polish his shoes for him every night. They treated him like a king. He would also meet the son of Belgium’s peacetime Minister of War. He was killed during a battle while he was serving in his tank. Battle of the Bulge and Germany (33:15)            He remembers he was stationed in Reims during the Battle of the Bulge. He remembers they were dropping barrels of gasoline that exploded on impact, so they had to hide in the shelters. It was very scary. He spent Christmas in Reims, during the Battle of the Bulge. They tried to have a nice dinner, but had no spices. But they did have the turkey, mashed potatoes and gravy. The unit he was with always flew combat. They would mainly focus on bombing factories and bridges and things. When he went into Germany, he would stay in huts with a mesh fence all around the camp. The local population would line up with empty pans to take any leftover food that the soldiers had. He thinks that the mess hall was put near the fence on purpose for this reason. He can’t remember where he was stationed in Germany, but the war was still going on when he got there. It was highly advised not to leave camp and wander around. He did have orders not to fraternize with the locals. He remembers now he was mistaken. He was still in Belgium when the Germans officially surrendered. So all of the warnings that he got were after the German surrender. While he was still in Belgium, he had accumulated enough points to go home. He was transferred to an Air Force weapons unit to go home. He was sent to Germany to meet up with them. From there he traveled from Germany by cattle car. It was a terrible smell. They were in the cart three days before arriving in Cherbourg, France. It was there he was shipped out. �Back to the US (39:05)        He was shipped out in the Fall. He arrived home just after Thanksgiving. They put them on an old Greek ship manned by French sailors. It was so old, that three days into the trip, it had sprung a leak. He watched them fix the leak by building a form around the leak and pouring instant concrete into it. About three more days, in about mid-Atlantic and the motors went out. They turned edgewise, toward the waves, which was dangerous. They went up to the deck to get onto the life rafts, but they were all washed off. They finally got a motor started and they took them home to NYC. When they passed the Statue of Liberty, there was not a dry eye on the whole boat. None of them thought they were going to get there. The next voyage the ship went through, it was scrapped. He was sent to Camp Atterbury where he would spend almost 20 hours a day processing discharge papers. He ended up staying longer than a lot of them. After getting all the work done, he was sent home by train. Post Duty (42:40)              On the way back to Lansing, he ended up wandering up to the first class observational car and meeting a nice businessman, who then asked him to stay. He was there for the rest of the trip, and it was very nice. Once he got home, his parents met him at the station and took him home. He started working with his father and was in the line of work for about two years. He went skiing in Cadillac and met up with a set of twins. After a bit of talking, they invited him to church, and he went the following Sunday. He met their sister there. He went up there every weekend for a month and it got to be too much. So he asked her to marry him. Four months later they were married in Cadillac. He’s been married now for 63 years. After they got married, she worked for the civil state department and discovered an opening for a clerk in the agriculture department. So he applied and got the job. He worked there for a while and then applied for a position of office manager at the labor mediation board. He got that as well. Then came an offer as an office manager in the highway department, which he took. In the highway department, he handled all the paperwork and the interviews. He believes that the job he had in the photo intelligence department in the army helped him learn how to be organized and helped him to learn how to work with people. Along with the interview, he is giving some documents as well. (47:15) He tells a story of his father while in WWI. Looking back, he feels that the service gave him a lot more confidence. He learned that he liked being around people. And he also found out that he liked to do office work. He remembers when he was taking training in St. Louis, there was a parade for President Roosevelt. It was hot, and they were wearing wool. A few of them fainted, including himself, right in front of the president. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShaullR Title A name given to the resource Shaull, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shaull, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Shaull was born in Lansing, Michigan, in 1921, and enlisted in the army in 1942. He wanted to become a pilot, but his vision was not good enough for the Army Air Corps, and he enrolled in a course for artillery observation pilots, but was then sent to radio repair school instead. When he arrived in England in the spring of 1944, he was again reassigned, this time to an office in London where he worked with aerial reconnaisance photographs. After the Normandy campaign, his unit moved first to Chartres, then to Reims, France, and then to Namur, Belgium, and finally into Germany after the war ended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5026f7cabb3330949ed670a681728171.jpg dfa3f243d55c309e486bfa9a2f8b1743 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_1725 Title A name given to the resource SHCH III class submarine Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource SHCH III class Russian SS (submarine), April 1, 1954. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Military education Russia World War, 1939-1945 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1954-04-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d56aecb34b893abab981f74141472758.mp4 9eeeda9df26ff184183da612c5f9407f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3cb7b64c53fa1619e39faf95b40e0745.pdf 4ca856b8148c5376bf3d08c7cf5219c9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Glenn Sheathelm Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We’re talking today with Glenn Sheathelm of Muskegon, Michigan. And the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, to begin with Glenn, give us some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born here in Muskegon, Michigan. My dad was actually born in Lansing. Mom, here in Muskegon. They met playing tennis out at Pioneer Park, when they had a tennis court up there. My dad and mom both had brothers that served during World War 2. My heroes were quite frequently World War 2 vets. There were several that lived in the neighborhood and of course, I am named after an uncle that was killed during World War 2, also a Glenn H. Sheathelm who was killed between Remagen and Cologne in March of 1945. Interviewer: Alright. And what year were you born? Veteran: I was born in 1946. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and what did your family do for a living when you were a kid? Veteran: My dad was a school teacher at Muskegon Public Schools. He had taught at a couple other schools before then in a place called Delton down near Hastings. And he came to Muskegon initially with—because of Walt Mosner. Walt Mosner was the director of Camp �Pendalouan. He had been youth director at the Lansing YMCA and my dad knew him real well from there and Mosner asked my dad to come as a junior counselor to Pendalouan so that’s what brought my dad initially to Muskegon. And he liked the area. Later on, moved up to counselor and then assistant camp director during the summer. And that included part time while he was teaching. Now, during World War 2, in addition to teaching, he worked at Bennett Pumps. He and another printing teacher, I believe at Muskegon Heights High School, split a job: printing instructions for Bennett Pumps products that were going to the military all over the world. So, he figured that that was some way he could contribute to the war effort. He was actually on the borderline for being too old but my parents decided not to have children until the war was over and they knew really what the future had. (00:02:54) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, that’s why I was born in ’46 and like I said, my uncle was killed in ’45. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: And another one on my dad’s side was wounded while he was a Marine in the Pacific. And on my mom’s side, I had a couple that served in Europe. One, a troop carrier command, that he had nightmares about Market Garden because he had put together crews of several planes that went down during that. And the other one was a photographer for the Army. And he had some beautiful photographs that unfortunately for history, his daughter has not written back to me. You know, I said, “Those belong in a university library or, you know, a library of congress because he had beautiful black and white 8x10 photographs of things in World War 2 that you don’t see in books.” And then, you know, it’s a big wood bound volume. Interviewer: Alright. �Veteran: So, it was—it was one of those things that I am really sorry didn’t get…Didn’t get out there some place. I have always had an interest in history. Like I said, my heroes were guys that had served in World War 2. I started reading about the Civil War. I, you know, read Bruce Catton and everything he wrote. He was a Michigan author, incidentally. And I tried to expose students to history. You know, reading sections of, like, This Hallowed Ground to show them how beautifully the English language comes together and explains some of the stuff really clearly. So, I’ve—I’ve tried spreading history around ever since. Interviewer: Okay. (00:04:59) Veteran: Now, where did you want to jump to? Interviewer: Well, we are going to go back here. So, okay now, did you go to high school in Muskegon? Veteran: I went to Glenside School for grade school. One of the teachers I had was Isabelle Herbert who is still alive and I still go over and visit her at her nursing home about every 3 weeks. She was one that kind of encouraged me to go ahead and pursue just about anything I wanted to. You know, if I got done with my assignment early and got up and got out of my seat, went back and grabbed an encyclopedia, that’s fine I wasn’t bothering anybody—let Glenn do that. So, I probably read the section on World War 2 in the encyclopedia multiple times while I was in her class. And she also taught me a lot about science and nature, which I have enjoyed throughout my lifetime. And junior high, I went to Bunker. While I was at Bunker, I got involved in the band. I got to know people like William Stewart, Fred Royce. Fred Royce was a World War 2 vet who was also a POW. Unfortunately, he’s passed away because his story was amazing. He was captured during the Battle of the Bulge. Spent some time as a POW. One of the �guys in his unit was Jewish and you know, his story about that whole thing was really very impressive. I also found out from talking to him that, you know, being in combat was going to change people forever. (00:06:41) Veteran: And they didn’t call it PTSD at the time but after I got back from Vietnam, he and I had some long discussions on that particular topic. And…But he was actually the high school band director until Carl Beauregard came in. Now, Carl Beauregard has been very active not only there but at Western Michigan University with the West Michigan Wind Ensemble. And then as an instructor at Blue Lakes Fine Arts Camp. I was in the drum section in both Bunker and Muskegon High. I played with Jerry Royce in the drum section. Jory was later in the Air Force Band. Also, knowing Jerry Royce, I got down to the basement of their house and I again got exposed to a little bit of post-traumatic stress disorder. I went down to the basement and I had never seen great big wooden cases of 30-06 ammunition before. And I mean, we are talking big wooden cases with handles so somebody can grab ahold of each end and carry them around. They are loaded with boxes of ammo inside. And anyway, I found out that this did have some connection to a repeating nightmare that Fred had had about the Germans coming down this hallway at him and he’d shoot them and there were always more Germans. I’m thinking okay, that makes sense that he might have about 5 or 6000 rounds of 30-06 ammunition down in the basement. But he unfortunately, like I said, has passed away so we haven’t got his stories anymore. (00:08:31) Veteran: After—now, I mentioned that my heroes were World War 2 vets. Many of them were pilots. I decided I wanted to be a pilot. I applied for the Air Force Academy as well as Michigan Tech. At—I had been accepted to Michigan Tech and I was also accepted for—I got a nomination for Air Force Academy but when I went to take the physical, I failed the physical �because of a fractured left leg from skiing that had not healed properly. And I had taken a fall— baseball tip right across the eyebrow and I had a fracture there that apparently, somewhere along the line, damaged some muscle. So that—I didn’t focus well, even with glasses. So, I was you know, not allowed to go to the Air Force Academy. Well, at Michigan Tech I thought well, what am I going to change to since I can’t fly for the Air Force. And I thought hmmm…Smokey the Bear Forest Ranger sounds good. I could see myself as one of the historical guides at Gettysburg or Yosemite or Yellowstone. That sounded real good to me. Except as I got along there, I found out that they were more interested in having their forestry students work for papermills and cruise timber. So, they could make lots of money for the lumber companies. And I thought I have grown up right near a papermill, you know, lakeside area. Don’t want anything to do with papermills. So, I grabbed— Interviewer: Okay, just to back up a little moment here. When did you finish high school? (00:10:13) Veteran: I graduated in 1964. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: ’64, ’65 I was up at Michigan Tech. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I started ski patrolling up there. I got involved in search and rescue up there. Was actually living where history took place because it was the copper country. I mean, I used to explore old abandoned towns and illegally explore some old abandoned mine shafts. A good friend of mine was a geology major and we got into places we shouldn’t have been. One time when I wasn’t with him, all the climbing ropes were in my locker down in the sportsman’s den. �Now at that time at Michigan Tech, if you were a hunter, they had a place called The Sportsman’s Den where you could keep your firearms locked up in there and you know, when you want to go out hunting, you’d come down, sign the little card and put the card on the thing in the, you know, in the dorm there and then you could take your firearm out hunting. Well, I also had climbing ropes in there. And the particular day that they went out and decided to explore some mine shafts, I was ski patrolling at another area. And they didn’t ask my roommate for the key for my locker. And one of them slipped and fell and went about 150 feet down in one of the mine shafts on the ice. Well, they had to write a very apologetic letter in not only the school newspaper but the local newspaper for being there because the county had to actually plow a road to the top of this mine shaft and the Calumet Hecla Mine Rescue Team had to get two of them out. Now, one guy had gone down to help the one that had fallen and gotten hurt but he couldn’t get himself back up. And the other guy had gone for help. And so, you know, some of those—some of those stories do abound and one of the guys that was helping on that was—the guy that went for help was the guy who’s dad had been a conservation officer as well as, you know, an Air Force retiree. So, he was an interesting guy to be around. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:12:51) Veteran: Now, when I dropped out of Michigan Tech— Interviewer: So, when did you leave Michigan Tech? Veteran: That would have been 1965. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was just there one year. I had gotten very involved in ski patrol and search and rescue and stuff like that. And I liked that type of thing. But I thought well, I worked for a while at �Quality Beverage here in Muskegon for a little while. And during that time, I realized the Army is kind of breathing down my neck and I probably ought to decide how I am going to deal with this military thing. And I thought well, I want to be in a good unit. So, I went ahead and signed up for airborne artillery, which really pleased the recruiter because everybody wanted to sign up to be computer operators or something like that. You know? No, I didn’t. Don’t want to take the chance on getting in Vietnam and then some messy job but I thought well, if I end up in Vietnam, I’ll at least be with a good unit. So, I enlisted for airborne artillery. Interviewer: Now, why did you select artillery as opposed to just— (00:14:07) Veteran: Well, actually the artillery probably goes back…that was what my uncle was in that was killed in World War 2. And one of the earliest pictures of me, my dad plunked me down where I am sitting straddling the barrel of one of these 75-millimeter guns down here at the Veterans Memorial Park. You know, I am actually sitting there on top of the barrel of the firearm. I don’t know if it was predestined I’d end up in artillery. But you know, that sort of ended up—ended up that way. And also, I figured that with all the mathematics experience I had had at Michigan Tech since it is primarily an engineering school, that you know, it was not going to be hard learning any of the artillery jobs. So— Interviewer: Okay. (00:15:00) Veteran: So, I signed up for airborne artillery and during basic training, they gave us a whole battery of tests. I really was too tired to do well on that but I did surprisingly well. And they said, “Well, you can go to any school other than foreign language school. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Somehow, I got through high school without taking any foreign language. �Interviewer: Now, we are going to back up a little bit. So, when do you actually sign up then? When do you enlist? Veteran: I enlisted in May of 1965. Interviewer: Okay. And then had you had a draft physical already? Or do you go for a physical after you enlist? Veteran: I went to Fort Wayne, down near Detroit. They did the physical and from there, they loaded us directly onto buses and we went down to Fort Knox, Kentucky. Interviewer: Now, when they did the physical, did you tell them about your Air Force issues? Or…? Veteran: No, I did not. I did not tell them I had anything wrong physically. You know, check, check, check on everything. I wanted to go into airborne and I figured, you know, if they decide there is something wrong with me, they won’t let me do that. So, I sort of neglected to mention that. Now, that caught me a little later on. Interviewer: Okay. (00:16:21) Veteran: Because in basic training, I had scored real well on doing just about anything I wanted. And they decided I would make a good officer. Well, in order to become an officer, you got to get a secret clearance. One of the things the secret clearance turned up was the fact that I had been rejected for Air Force Academy for physical reasons. Which I got grilled on quite heavily on that, on why I lied on my enlistment papers down at…You know, and I said, “Well, I really wanted to serve my country. And I really wanted to serve in a good unit.” And they said, “Well, unfortunately, we are putting you down as not qualified for artillery because—or for airborne, �because of the leg injury.” They said, “We will still get you into artillery.” And they said that “we might even, you know, get you an OCS after a while.” Well, I went to—through basic training. Interviewer: Okay. Now, but—let’s talk about basic training. What was that experience like? Veteran: Ah, what? Interviewer: Basic training. Veteran: Well, okay. Basic training I found was more hard psychologically than it was physically. I ran cross country in high school. The physical stuff didn’t really bother me. They made me acting sergeant for a while. And they gave me one guy by the name of Wing who was a lot like in the movie Full Metal Jacket. You know, overweight, very much out of shape. And they said, “You know, it’s your responsibility, make—your responsibility to make sure this guy eventually passes the PT test.” Well, Wing and I would go out every night after supper with his pet log that [raises his arms as if he were carrying a log in front of his chest] he would hold like this. And we would go jogging around the parade grounds. Well, when Wing got ready for the PT test at the end of the session, he could take his elbows like this and stick them down inside the pair of pants that he had been issued, you know, when he first got to basic training. Well, he passed the PT test. I got congratulated for getting him through. (00:18:48) Veteran: And you know, we did a bunch of marching. We were actually trained with the M14 rifle because that had just fairly recently replaced the M1 Garand as the Army’s general rifle. And you know, I did fairly well with that but I never felt real comfortable with it because I had a lot of jams and stuff. Well, part of the reason was because sometimes I had duty at the sawdust �pit, just before we would beat each other around with the rifles and you know, they got awfully dirty. And you know, I had rifles blow up on me, I had just all kinds of stuff. So, I never really developed any particular confidence in the M14. And anyway, I got through basic training. My parents came down along with my sister to visit me. When I got out, we did a tour of the Smoky Mountains. Now one of the things: I had practically grown up sort of like a water baby, here in the Great Lakes. My dad was a real good swimmer. Matter of fact, he had rescued a girl that would have drowned in Duck Lake if he had not jumped in and pulled her out. So, he had me real comfortable with the Great Lakes and swimming. Well, anyway, we were at a swimming pool. My sister, who was 3 years younger than I was, and I swam in the pool and that—you know, they said, “Well, you can’t swim because haven’t got a life guard on duty.” And after they watched us swim for a while, “I guess you’re probably okay.” So, they let us—they let us enjoy the pool there at the motel without an adult supervising. And we enjoyed that quite a bit. Interviewer: Okay. So, from basic where do you go next? (00:20:50) Veteran: Next one was Fort Sill, Oklahoma which is home of the artillery. There I was trained primarily to work on gun sections, which would be the crew of an artillery piece. They trained us on the 105-millimeter, it was called the M101. It was a split trailed 105-millimeter that was very common both in World War 2 and Korea. It was a fairly old, old piece of artillery. But it—it was relatively accurate and the Army had lots of them. So, anyway, we did advanced artillery training at Fort Sill. I did first aid there on a couple accidents where people had gotten hurt. The worst one was at night. We were firing and one of the guys thought his particular artillery piece had already fired. And he stuck his arm up to catch the empty cases and eject it. It had not fired yet. It recoiled and you know, we’re talking a major open fracture. I heard that he got a medical discharge out of the service because you know, the arm was never going to work right after that. �But you know, I was the first one there to start first aid on him. They eventually got a medic. They, you know, had an ambulance there and took him away. But he never came back to our advanced individual training unit. Like I said, I understood he was— Interviewer: Right. Now, how long—yeah. (00:22:30) Veteran: --given a medical discharge. Interviewer: Now, how long did these—how long was basic training and how long was the AIT? Veteran: Basic was 8 weeks. AIT was also 8 weeks. And you know, we would go out and fire the artillery pieces. And now, on the gun crew, we didn’t do any of the slide rule stuff that was done by fire direction control. But we were given the data to put on the guns and tell us how many mills we had to be up, what the azimuth was to our aiming stakes, and we would go ahead and set those off and the guns, level their bubbles, everything. And the round would go 10 or 15 yards of where it was supposed to. You know, some place about 5 miles away. Interviewer: Now, with the 105, can you adjust the charge on the— (00:23:17) Veteran: Yes. The 105 was what was called a semi-fixed artillery piece. Now, that meant that the—it had the projectile and the case. And in the case, there were 7 bags and they were fastened together with the string. For instance, they might say “charge 5.” Well, we would pull bags 6 and 7 out, drape them over the side. The section chief of the gun section would look to verify that we had, you know, charge 5 and 6 and 7 were hanging on the outside and that it, you know, goes to command. Round approved, would push the thing down so it would cut the string and pass it on to a guy that would then go ahead and load the thing into the breech of the 105-millimeter howitzer. Now, the 105-millimeter howitzer had a breech block that went side to side. And you �would put it in and the breech block would slam shut. Now, other artillery pieces, like the one I worked on in Germany, that was what was called separate loading. That had separate—a separate bag that had bags of powder that would be put in the breech after you wiped it down with a watery mop so that sparks wouldn’t set the stuff off because if you had sparks in there when you put the powder bag in there, there was going to be this maybe 2000 degree flame thrower that was going to go ahead and basically cook anybody’s arm that was behind it. So, you know, you had to wipe the breech down after each round. And it had a primer that went in the back of the breech block. Looked about like a 38-special shell. And that was what started the thing that—the lightest bag had a red pad on it. It was actually loaded with black powder that ignited real quick and that would set the whole bunch of other bags off. (00:25:23) Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But anyway, anything else you wanted to ask about AIT? Interviewer: Yeah. How was AIT different from basic just in terms of how you were treated or how you used your time? Veteran: Actually, there was less of the emotional harassment and a lot more training time towards what we were actually going to be doing. Now, advanced individual training would vary, depending on what job you were going into. They were training me to work on gun crew. If I was being trained to fire direction control, they would have trained me on doing the slide roll type of thing. And those—and, or survey, which were the 3 major artillery skills that were taught. And then if you were a medic, they would of course give you training in that particular field. Now, you know, your first infantry division thing—there’s a book that I am reading now called Blood Trails, where the guy talks about you know, his experience in basic training after he �finished…You know, he said, “Well they went down the line. You first 9 guys are going to be medics.” And he said this did not make him feel real good because these guys, you know, could have been trained as mechanics or whatever and they are going to be putting somebody’s body back together. But he was with the first infantry division. The first cavalry seemed to have people generally that, you know, were trained in that job. (00:27:05) Interviewer: Okay. Well, normally in order to be a medic, they would send you for training. You didn’t just magically become a medic. Veteran: Well, he describes the situation in the First Cav that—or the first infantry division—that some of the guys were assigned jobs as medic were not actually trained in AIT as medics. Interviewer: Oh, so they arrive with the unit and then the unit just tosses them— Veteran: Yeah, and then unit went ahead and assigned them to someplace else. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Like in Germany, we had one guy that was a—he had been a multi engine pilot. You know, had the license for multi engine, and they assigned him to a gun crew. You know, a 105millimeter howitzer. You know? It’s like okay. Interviewer: Now, to go back to your story, I guess. Now, while you were in AIT, I mean, could you go off base when you were off duty? Or…? Veteran: Yeah, I actually have more stories about Fort Sill, Oklahoma when I came back through there one time later on. We will get to that. But I—yeah, I did do a little bit off base. Got into Lawton a couple times. But also, I played drums for the battalion when the battalion marched anywhere so if the battalion or company was doing something that Saturday morning, or you �know, I ended up playing drums for them to march them from. And our battalion commander was real pleased with that because we had a drummer that actually knew what he was doing. And…So, yeah, I didn’t get out and do a whole lot when I was in the AIT. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so after AIT, what happens next? (00:28:52) Veteran: Then I came home for about a 2 week leave and then went to Fort Dix, New Jersey. They decided to send me to Europe instead of Vietnam. Got on a plane, flew to Frankfurt—the Rhein-Main Air Force Base to Frankfurt, and then they gave me a train ticket to Nuremberg. And took the train down to Nuremberg and I also had a little card and a phone number I was supposed to call when I got to the train station. And I remember the train station. It would just really impress me by the size of it in Nuremberg. Well, there was a deuce and a half truck that picked me up after I made the phone call. And then things got real strange. The deuce and a half took me to the south side of town. And there was a guy at the gate, you know, with a rifle and a guard post. And we went into this complex that looked more like a castle than an Army barracks. I mean, I was used to the Army barracks at Fort Knox, Kentucky and Fort Sill, which were leftover ones that they built during World War 2 that were made out of wood and were probably built to last 10 years at most and they were going to knock them down. But we are still using those. Well, here’s this huge archway that we drove into. (00:30:32) Veteran: And the deuce and a half stopped. And he says, “Well, this is where you get out.” He said, “You go out firstly out of this archway and then you turn left.” And he said, “There will be two quadrangles.” And I said, “Are they painted on the ground?” He says, “No, quadrangle buildings.” And I mean, these were areas that had about a block and a half square inside this inside quadrangle. And the building is about 5-stories high. And stone. And the archway that I am standing in…I look up and lo and behold, there’s all this inlaid stone all in the ceiling in these �big huge lights like you see in the inside of a church. And I am thinking this sure doesn’t look like any Army barracks I have ever been to before. And, you know, I am just kind of turning my head around like this, looking at it thinking well, this is really kind of bizarre. But I grabbed my duffel bag and started walking out of this archway. And as I got out of the archway, there was a big balcony overhead. And I couldn’t see all of the balcony, I was just looking at the bottom of it first. And I walked out to where the parade ground started because that’s where the road was, right along the edge of the parade ground. And I turned around and looked back and all of a sudden, the hair stood up on the back of my neck. I’d seen this place before. Matter of fact, I had seen it watching Walter Cronkite and the program 20th Century. Except in—while Walter Cronkite was talking, Adolf Hitler was standing on that balcony like this and there were half trucks full of SS troops running underneath it. You know, through this same road that I walked out to this left-hand turn road. And I thought oh my goodness. I am now at a big SS barracks. (00:32:43) Veteran: And I am thinking okay, that is beginning to make a little sense now because I can see pockmarks in the stone. Okay yeah, this was here during World War 2. And then it was shot at and bombed some. And anyway, I followed instructions and walked up to the third floor where Charlie Battery was because I was being assigned to Charlie Battery, 2nd of the 34th Artillery [Regiment]. And when I got to—when I got up there, I set down my orders and introduced myself. And the person in charge said, “Okay. You’re going to be assigned to…” I think it was the 5th section, but anyway he said, “You can go ahead. There’s, you know, bunks down there and a wall of lockers.” And he said, “You know, you can get a key for the wall locker and everything tomorrow.” So, I walked down there and I thought yep, this is really strange for a barracks because the hall I was walking through was about the width of a two-lane highway. And �it’s polished stone floor. I am thinking I can see why these SS guys got the idea they could conquer the world because you can imagine people goose stepping down these hallways with a clack, clack, clack. And I thought yeah, this place was all built for the psychological effect too. And there were racks built into the wall where they used to keep firearms at one time. They didn’t then because, you know, that was from the old German days. And I walked into the— walked into the room that I was assigned to and you know, I was—I walked through the room. Yeah, the walls are about this thick going from the hallway to the room. (00:34:54) Veteran: And I got in the room and looked out the window and yeah, these walls are just about 3 feet thick stone. And you know…wow. And anyway, I slept the first night there. And I immediately started…what can I find out about this place? And they wouldn’t let us off base for the first 3 weeks. We had to go through what was Soviet Military Liaison Mission Training. Now, Soviet Military Liaison was a semi-legal organized Russian spy group that was supposed to drive certain cars with certain types of license plates that could go around and visit our military post but there were areas that they could not get into and if they tried to get into them, they were supposed to be stopped and arrested and so forth. And also, they told us about, you know, talking to people and you know, civilians outside. About not saying anything about our unit because the Cold War was on and we didn’t want the other side to know that our unit was only at about half strength. And I mean, we went through great pains to make it look like we had more people and more rank than we really did. Like later—well, when I was driving when we went out on alerts outside military areas, I wore corporal stripes even though I was only a PFC at the time, driving this 27-ton armored vehicle. (00:36:49) Veteran: I’d done real well on the driver’s test. They decided okay, we’ll start you in that job. And there was a guy that was really a spec 4 that was wearing E-6 striped that was standing in �the top of the turret of this thing. Now, this 155 self-propelled that looks like a tank but it’s got a bigger gun on it and it doesn’t have as much armor on it. Like a 50-caliber piercing round is going to come through that aluminum alloy armor and rattle around the inside for a while. But anyway, that is except if it’s in the front slope. And I thought well, this is kind of nice because you know as a driver, I am sort of behind the front slope. And anyway, it was one of those big, huge things that you’d think could go just about anywhere but you know, they tend to slide and stuff in the mud. And even worse was when winter came. We got ice on the cobblestones. Sometimes, it got so bad you were sitting in a 27-ton hockey puck. And like the 2nd and 17th, it had 8-inch self-propelled. One time there was a little Volkswagen parked on the corner. And by the time the battery had gone over it, it looked like a bale of scrap metal. You know? It just… There wasn’t much left of it except that sort of rectangular hunk of scrap that was ground clearance on it, on the 8-inch howitzers. (00:38:31) Veteran: But like I said, I tried learning as much as I could about the barracks. I had probably only been there about 3 days when I asked one of the other guys who had been there for a while. He said that—I asked him, I said, “What’s the castle like?” And he says, “The castle?” I said, “yeah, the castle on the other side of town.” He said, “You haven’t been off base yet. How do you know about the castle?” And I said, “Well, you can see it from the roof.” And this guy—you know, eyes got about this big. “The roof? How did you get up on the roof?” And I managed to find a way I could get myself up on the roof. And I could see all across Nuremberg from up there. And also, off on the—as I was looking towards the castle, off on the right, is this big horseshoe shaped building, which officially was known as Osterlings Rundgebau. Well, or Osterling’s Round Building. If you read the Nazi stuff on, you know, that time period, it’s called Kongresshalle and it's where Hitler planned on having the puppet rulers of the different �countries. And he was going to stand at his little podium in the middle and give the office—the orders of the day to all of these people. Well it’s—the building is still there. There were still some places where there was bomb damage in the roof. But I found out later on that some of it was being used as storage and some of it was being used as practice rooms for the Nuremberg Symphony Orchestra where these masters would have other kids from the high schools and stuff and would teach violin lessons and clarinet lessons and so forth inside of that building. So, it was still being used for something and it…But I found out what its original intent was. (00:40:35) Veteran: Well, I could see part of a building beyond that. It was a long stadium type building with columns sticking up. And I couldn’t see the center section of it real well but I thought could that be Zeppelinwiese? Well, after I was able to get a pass to go out there, I found out yeah, it was Zeppelinwiese, which is where Hitler would also stand there with the—everybody, all the troops, out in front, tanks out in front and so forth. And I’d also seen that on newsreels when it was totally intact. And I had also seen newsreels when Patton’s Third Army got there. Because what they did—there was a big swastika surrounded by a wreath up on the top. And Patton had his demolition people from the Third Army go ahead and blow that off. And of course, the newsreels took pictures of this big swastika and wreath tumbling off the roof of this building. Okay, that one is kind of interesting too. And after I had been there a while, I got a chance to actually go out to the castle and so forth. And I enjoyed taking pictures. And I signed up for a photography class in the post. Well, the photography instructor had been a photography instructor—or, he had been a photographer for Signal, which was the German Army’s magazine during World War 2. He had made documentaries showing the German people that the American bombing really wasn’t doing any real damage. He had pictures of a park that everybody knew in Berlin with German people having a picnic in this park. Of course, what you didn’t know was �that they had to have about a battalion of German soldiers moving in trees that actually had branches on them and planting them so that that’s all you saw in the background and you didn’t see the ruined buildings and so forth. (00:42:50) Veteran: And he told me how they had made the thing and he says, “Yes, you can make photographs lie.” And I used some of those techniques a little bit later on. Like, I had pictures of various historic buildings, including Fayette which is a state park in the Upper Peninsula, when I was teaching school. And kids said, “Do you ever go to anyplace that other people go to too?” Because they never saw other tourists in my pictures. And I said, “Well, you see that old wooden wall with the handle and the trough?” I said, “You notice I got it at a fairly low angle.” I said, “That trough is hiding a school bus.” And you know…So, I used some of those angle things later on. But an interesting thing about him was that he had also done some movies and so forth in Nuremberg during the Nazi Party rallies as well as stole pictures. And he gave me some of those stole pictures and stuff later on. And I mentioned to him, I said, “You know, our parade ground is cobblestone.” I said, “One side of it seems to develop frost and the other side of it doesn’t early in the winter.” And I said, “Any reason for that?” And he wrote out a note in German and gave it to me. And he said, “You know where the boiler works is?” And I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “Go down to the boiler works.” And he says, “It’s got the name of a guy on the top. And he’ll show you.” So, I went down to the boiler works. I couldn’t speak much German. And this German guy goes and meets me at the door and has a steel beam lighter and he motions for me to follow him. (00:44:50) Veteran: And we go through the boiler plant and there’s a tunnel that goes out. And I figure yeah, this is pretty close to where the parade ground is. And I looked and from this catwalk we were on, you could see the tails of ME 262 jets sticking out of the water. During World War 2, �we damaged their storm sewer systems such that water got into a section of what had once been an aircraft assembly plant underneath their parade ground. And the Americans had tried to go ahead and get the water out of there except the Germans had left booby traps. After they lost several demolitions experts, they decided to leave the storm sewer water down in there. So, there’s a whole bunch of highly—what were at one time—highly valuable, historical ME 262 jets rusting away down underneath their parade ground. And he also showed me a couple other places where I could get underneath the buildings and there were half trucks like that too, in underground storage areas that were partially underwater. (00:46:13) Veteran: And our barracks area was actually some places 3, some places 4 stories deep below ground. And we had special weapons things there where we had classes on nukes and nerve gases and so forth. But they had classrooms down there and I was involved in a bunch of those because I did have a secret clearance. But one way to get the German taxi cab drivers a little angry, if you were coming back into town, was to say, “SS Caserne.” And they didn’t like to be reminded that that barracks had once been an SS barracks. (00:47:00) Interviewer: Okay. Now, you mentioned getting a security clearance. What did you need that for? Veteran: Well, the thing is, they did that because I had—they were going to send me to OCS at one time. And also, once I had the security clearance, they went ahead and upgraded things all the time so I could go to the special weapons classes and learn how to put together the detonating devices and nuclear warheads. Which, you know, you think you mean the military actually turned loose this technology to 19 and 20-year olds? Yes, they did. You know, we had way too much responsibility for, you know, what our job classifications were. And then now, to get into the particular area where these nuclear warheads were, you know, there had to be an officer that �had to open the thing up. But they made sure that they had one person out of every 2 gun sections that knew how to actually arm the warheads after they were in our vehicle if they got into World War 3. And they had a place they referred to as the Fulda Gap where they figured they—the East Germans and Russians would come through with large amounts of tanks and stuff. And we had—we had some pre-planned targets on bridges and so forth there. And that was basically to slow them down until the family members of the troops and so forth, all the civilians, could get to ports and get out of there because you know, it was like—you know, you’re just being sacrificed to hold them up for a couple, 3 weeks, you know. And your nukes and your artillery rounds, which I started doing the checking on and I thought now, according to the figures, we wont quite glow in the dark after we fire these things because the range, even with the rocket assisted projectiles, which you know gave it more oomph, then the charge 7, which was normal maximum load that they called a wrap-around—or a rocket assisted projectile—and that would kick it out farther. But it, you know, we were still going to get some radiation from these things. (00:49:38) Interviewer: Not to mention whatever radiation you got from whatever came your way. Veteran: Yeah, whatever was coming our way too. But yeah, it was—it was one of those glowin-the-dark type of prospects if something went. And there were a couple incidents where things got pretty iffy. There was an American Major that was killed that was part of the American liaison group that was shot by the Russians. And that caused an incident. The only incident that I was involved in got quieted down pretty quick. That was one where we were near the Czechoslovakian border. We were on a training exercise. We were, you know, out there with our 155 self-propels, jeeps and trucks and so forth. And we got a call for help from one of the guard posts along the Czechoslovakian border. There were some people that were coming from east to �west that had been shot at by the East Germans or Czechoslovakians, you know, in one of the towers. And there were some of them that were dead. There were some of them that were wounded. An American had gone out there and tried rescuing them. He had been shot and wounded and these guys were asking for help. (00:51:07) Veteran: The battery executive officer, you know, picked two vehicles, mine being one of them. And you know, said, “Follow me.” We went to the border and he immediately started yelling commands. You know, like “target that tower!” And we unhooked the travel locks and opened the breech box and cranked the barrel around. I said, “Sir, we haven’t got any live ammunition for the main gun.” And he said, “They don’t know that.” And so, we cranked the main gun around on the thing and you never saw some people abandon their tower so fast in your life as those guys did. You know, coming down when they saw this huge barrel swinging around on them. But that was the only one of the border incidents that I was involved in. Like I said, the guys abandoned the tower. An armored personnel carrier went out along with the other vehicle that I was with and you know, since they had armored plates that at least had small arms on, the 155-SP. And they went out there and picked up the people that had come across the border. And after about an hour and a half, two hours, some generals somewhere had gotten together and decided okay, everybody be cool about this. We went back but… Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did you spend in Germany? (00:52:48) Veteran: I spent just about 11 months there. Now, while I was in Germany, I also had a chance to do some things that were pretty unusual. One day I was in the NCO club and I was playing the piano and pretty quick, I am surrounded by about a half dozen beautiful women who were singing Broadway show tunes as I am playing the piano. And everybody is kind of looking at me: how did he do that? Well, it turned out that USO had sent these Miss America also rans who �were singers to do a variety show at various places around Europe. And that—these women had showed up a little bit earlier and they heard me playing Broadway show tunes and they, you know, they started singing them. Well, they passed the word on to somebody else who later on, you know, mentioned that I knew how to play the piano. And the service club program got ahold of me and said, “We would you like to play piano with the variety group the month of November, 1965 in southern Germany?” So, for a whole month, I played piano with a jazz trio and variety group that went around the various military bases in southern Germany, which was a real, you know, real step aside for—you know, a guy that’s used to working at a gun cruiser with big guns and big noises. (00:54:30) Veteran: And they asked about, you know, we can get your orders cut where you stay here and do this type of thing? And I said, “No. I signed up for artillery. I am going to go back to artillery. I had a nice break; I enjoyed this but, you know, I’ll go back to my artillery unit.” Well, I did and then we got some replacements in. Now these guys—there’s a 34th Artillery in Germany—2nd of the 34th Artillery, which I was in. except there was also a 34th Signal Corps in Germany. Somebody did the wrong thing on a typewriter. There were about 40 guys that were supposed to go to 34th Signal to repair telephone lines and they showed up at 34th Artillery. Now, like I mentioned, we were about half strength at that time. Our battalion commander was not about to let anybody know they’d goofed. So, these guys end up getting moved into 34th Artillery. And in the section bay that I was in, there were two guys that were from this 34th Signal. And they came in and started asking about “Well, where do we go to fix the lines?” And I said, “What are you talking about?” And they said, “Well, we are phoneline men.” I said, “This is an artillery unit.” And they said, “Well, what are we going to do here?” And I said, “You have just been assigned to a gun section.” And they said, “A gun section? What do you mean a gun section?” I said, �“Well, we have this thing called a track.” And they said, “You mean like railroad tracks?” “No, this is a 27-ton armored vehicle that’s tracked like a tank and it has this big cannon on it.” And they’re totally aghast at this and can’t figure anything out. You know, like “Well, what do they really look like? What is it like inside? What do you do in those?” (00:56:36) Veteran: And I finally gave up but I went down and asked the first sergeant, I said, “I’ve got these guys asking me all kinds of questions. And since I have been answering the questions, they keep asking more.” And I said, “It would help if I could just show them what the thing looked like.” So, he calls down to the guardhouse and tells them that I am bringing yea number of people down there. And I took one of the guys as a ground guide for me. And we went down there and I, you know, had the key, opened up the back of the thing, swung the doors open. And shined the flashlight around, explained what all the different stuff was and you know, about the pentacycles. I go in order and they said, “Well, what’s it like when it moves?” And I said, “I’ll tell you what: I’ll just let three of you guys get in and I’ll have somebody as a ground guide. And I’ll drive it around the motor pool.” So, the rest of them watched as I went ahead and of course, this was all—this was winter months. You know, winter was just getting over at that time and so I had to go ahead and turn on pre-heater and stuff. We are talking about a great big, huge diesel engine. And I went ahead and fired the thing up and it blew the white smoke for a while and then eventually it turned to black and I went ahead and checked with the ground guide and, you know, that I was clear to pull forward. I pulled forward, went around the motor pool and came back in. The guys had been, you know, shaking around a bit on the inside. But they thought this was really cool. This was a whole lot better than putting phonelines together. They thought this was neat. So, about two days after that, our battalion commander says, “Okay, we are going to train �all of these guys as artillerymen. Now, these guys have not been through artillery AIT, they had been through common AIT to fix phonelines.” (00:58:44) Veteran: And so, he assigned me to the training group that would go ahead and teach these guys the skills of artillery. So, I taught them how to cut charges and you know, the loading procedure for getting the rounds into the vehicle and what different jobs that they would do. We didn’t put them on the gunner’s slot or assistant gunner’s slot, or the driver’s slot at the time because those were kind of important. We wanted people that really knew what they were doing there. But we used them and, you know, to go ahead and cut charges. I showed them how to put a, you know, cut the time fuses and stuff like that. And to, you know, make sure everything was right there. And anyway, about 3 or 4 weeks later, somebody found out that these guys had been shipped to the wrong place. And most of them decided they wanted to stay with us instead of go to the 34th Signal because this was a whole lot more interesting. And you know, the idea that at 0 dark 30 in the morning, we might go out on an alert some place in this big armored vehicle and go whaling down this gravel road out in the middle of nowhere and pull up and then you’d watch daylight come and you’re overlooking this field of hops and stuff for, you know, making beer and so forth. Then you know, they’ve got all the data set on the guns and yep, if this had actually turned into World War 3, we would be firing right now. And you know, we would have those types of alerts and they—they were kind of fascinated by that. (01:00:30) Veteran: And then I went to a place called Grafenwöhr. Grafenwöhr was filtrating area. That is, the Germans had fired artillery back there in the 1800s. So, there’s a bunch of duds laying around, a bunch of smashed up stuff laying all over the place. And also, there was a saying about Grafenwöhr that Grafenwöhr is the only place that you could run into so much dust that you won’t see the mud hole that’s going to swallow your vehicle. And it was just about that bad. You �know like I said, it was all chewed up by artillery fire and armored vehicles just charging all over it for years and years and years. Well, they got a chance to actually fire the artillery pieces at Grafenwöhr. One time there was a—what they called a target acquisition battery. And the target acquisition battery was one that uses radar to figure out where the enemy shells are coming from. (01:01:34) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, we are back for hour number 2 with Glenn Sheathelm. So… Veteran: Okay. My—this was actually my third trip to Grafenwöhr, when we were training these new guys. The first trip was during mid-winter and when you’re dealing with 27-ton armored vehicles, you quickly learn you don’t grab anything without mittens on because your skin is going to peel right off. We had tents that we actually slept in that were on concrete slabs. They were heated by coal stoves. And sometimes the coal stoves didn’t burn real well. Well, we found that a little bit of diesel fuel would blow the soot out so that they would breathe a little better and that worked pretty good. Except one day, one of the guys went to the wrong 55-gallon drum to fill up his coffee can with whatever he thought was diesel fuel. It was aviation gas. And he came back to the coal stove, started pouring it in. Flames jumped up to the coffee can he was holding. Of course, he let go of that which then hit the floor. And so, we got burning gas all over the floor of the inside of this GP medium tent. We are talking about a tent maybe 16 or 18 feet wide by maybe 30 feet long. (01:03:16) Veteran: And anyway, we got flames. And of course, there was one of the guys that was real anxious to get out of his sleeping bag and he—the zipper ripped and he jumped out of it and then his sleeping bag caught fire and just kind of exploded into this little bunch of sparklers. Everybody was real anxious to get out of their sleeping bags and out. And I remember, you know, exiting underneath the sidewall of the tent and scraping myself all up as I crawled on the �concrete because the smoke was so bad, I couldn’t really see exactly where the end of the tent was. Now, this GP medium tent has two tent poles in it—one part way down towards each end. They were probably, oh, about that big. And one of the guys in the process heading for the doorway, ran smack dab into one of those—one of those tent poles. And he knocked himself out and I found out that, you know, that they had thought he had run into a tent pole. I got down low, grabbed ahold of him, pulled him the rest of the way out. He was really scraped up bad after I dragged him across the concrete. But anyway, that was one of our excitements during that winter there. (01:04:46) Veteran: The other time we had gone there and fired 105-millimeter howitzers because this target acquisition unit used radar to track the rounds, they had ordered the wrong kind of ammunition for us. And I knew how to run a 105 as well as a 155 so I got picked to be part of the crew on that. And we went out and shot the 155 so they could figure out where we were shooting from and track the thing back. So, I had been at Grafenwöhr several times. And it was exciting but always dusty and dirty. I mentioned about having pictures, I got one picture where I looked like a Mexican bandit—you got, you know, here and goggles and nothing but just covered with dust. And then standing up next to the driver, you know, in the driver’s compartment and you know, gives people an idea of how bad the dust really was out there. And we also, like I said, ran some field problems where we are actually out in the Germany countryside. While we— Interviewer: Okay, just to go back to the Grafenwöhr for a minute. You mentioned there was a lot of unexplored ordinance out there. Were you driving right over it? (01:06:04) Veteran: They usually had little red flags. Now, sometimes we drove over stuff without realizing we were going over it. But when they found the stuff, they would put little red flags and we �would go around it until we had an EOD team come blow it up. But we undoubtedly ran over some old stuff somewhere along the line. Interviewer: Okay. But as far as you know, there weren’t any incidents where anything blew up? Veteran: No, I can’t actually say that. Because there were—there were incidents where people were injured, you know, going ahead and digging out an old mortar round with a trenching tool to dig a foxhole. And yeah, there were people injured. Now, there was one incident too. It was what we call an artillery incident and it involved an investigation. Didn’t involve our unit. And anyway, either on the receiving end or the sending end, but there was a thing called an aiming circle and it looks sort of like a surveyor’s transit. But it can be set up 3200 mills out or 180 degrees wrong. So, the lieutenant who sets this up, or chief of smoke which is the chief of the firing battery, is responsible for checking to make sure which direction he’s actually got this thing oriented. Well, it turned out that there was some first lieutenant somewhere who hadn’t done that. And the 8-inch were set up to fire the wrong way. The lanyard was jerked and there were immediate radio calls that, you know, Grafenwöhr niner niner, cease fire immediately. So, in other words, anybody firing anything at a whole post to Grafenwöhr. You know, niner niner means everybody stop shooting. And then they figured out what had happened. And I have never seen so much brass investigating an artillery incident as that one. Because an 8-inch round is, you know, almost 200-pounds of steel and explosive. And it landed in a mess hall. Fortunately, there was nobody in there other than a couple KPs and a cook at the time. (01:08:33) Veteran: You know, and it would have been a major disaster if the unit had been in there for lunch or something at the time. But yeah there was lots of brass surrounding investigating that. And later—well, when I got to Vietnam, there was an officer that was a full observer that had �been safety officer for another unit earlier and I never ran into anybody so cautious about what he was doing. And but it—like I said, we were at Grafenwöhr several times. Now, one of the few problems we’d get in the countryside…Our battery was set up and they sent me out with the sergeant and one other guy who was the radio operator for the group. And we were supposed to do a recon on some road junctions that were a distance away. Well, it turns out that the aggressor, who was actually the Third Infantry Division, that’s the same one that Audie Murphy was in during World War 2. They had blue and white stripes on their vehicles. And anyway, they chased our battery away. So, here I am—I haven’t got radio communication with anybody because they’re too far away. And I don’t know where we are supposed to go and the sergeant doesn’t know where we are supposed to go either. We are outside of a little town called Fürth which is outside of Nuremberg. And from the map I knew, you know, where we were and everything and what road we were on. but I couldn’t tell anybody because I couldn’t reach anybody that was on our side on the radio. So, we sat there for a while and eventually there’s this jeep that comes down the road underneath this overpass. And just as he gets out of the overpass, he stops. (01:10:41) Veteran: And there’s this lieutenant in the front seat; he’s looking at his map. I thought, hmm. They’re the bad guys in this field problem. I whispered to the sergeant, “Why don’t we just capture them and their jeep?” We did. And now what do we do? Well, we don’t really know what exactly we are going to do but we know where we are. So, you know, they had me navigate us back to where our barracks was in Nuremberg where we turned these 3 guys over and we missed the last two days of the field problem because they’re….we are in Nuremberg with these guys that we captured, you know. And so, the field problem ended right there. Now, while that field problem was going on, a guy by the name of Johnny Rogers who had been my section chief �and I had worked with him as far as getting ready for the 7th Army gunnery test, which you know was one of the things that identifies some of the top people in gunnery in the whole 7th Army. And he did very, very well on that. Like I said, I had worked with him with the test target and stuff, so he was doing a lot of stuff real fast including laying the battery. And you know, sometime—sometimes we would use my artillery piece, sometimes I’d just use, you know, wooden stakes and mark them where the site was and you’d go ahead and lay the stuff from there. But anyway, he got a lot of practice and did real well on the test. Johnny Rogers was an E6. We had two E-7s and an E-8 in our battery. (01:12:29) Veteran: Johnny Rogers got appointed chief of smoke or chief of firing battery, which is the most important job in a firing battery. You know, the lieutenants and captains may think they run the show, but it’s the chief of smoke that you know, if he’s good, he can run the whole show by himself. Well, it turns out that one of these guys that outranked him and also had more log time and grade was very anti-black. Johnny Rogers was black. I don’t know whether he was a member of the Klu Klux Klan or just knew where there was a Klu Klux Klan cell in 2nd Armored Cavalry regiment which was also stationed at Nurem… barracks in Nuremberg. But anyway, I was out running around the parade field one night and I noticed 8 guys grabbed ahold of a vehicle and flipped it over outside of the NCO club. And I ran after them and yelled for the guard as I was doing so. And they broke up because they knew I couldn’t chase all of them, you know, at one time. And one of the guys ran into one of the barracks areas that I knew pretty well. He didn’t—apparently didn’t know it real well and didn’t realize that he was going to run into a dead end and was going to have to come back to the stairway. Well, he came back towards the stairway and I tackled him just as he was starting up. And both of us went down and he came out with a switchblade. And I was about ready to put a foot in the side of his head and I hear this �she-shunk—an M-14 bolt closing behind me. Everybody be nice. So, I stopped and the guard asked me what was going on and I mentioned about this vehicle being flipped over and he says, “Yeah, I am aware of that.” And I said, “This guy was one of the guys flipping it over.” I said, “I wasn’t able to chase down the other guys but this guy was definitely one of them.” (01:14:42) Veteran: So, anyway they took him away and a little bit later on, there was an officer from second enlisted student battery—or I mean second armored cav, that tried to get me to change my story. And I said, “No.” Well, about that time, I found out that the vehicle also belonged to Johnny Rogers. And Johnny Rogers had his wife and two kids in Germany. And he didn’t want to make a real big fuss because he was worried about the Klan coming after his family. I had a couple Klansmen try to get—try to get to me. Like I said, this was after we had come back from field problem. Once I was down at the wash rack and I had taken the 155s and howitzer down there. And you know, used the hose and was spraying it off and getting the mud and stuff off of it. And I saw these two guys coming towards me; they looked like they were up to no good. And so, I went to the back of the vehicle, reached in and grabbed a pick axe handle. Well, one of these guys came at me with his switchblade out. I promptly broke his wrist and the other guy ran away. Well, there was some concern that I was sort of a loose cannon around the area and so I got shipped back to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. I thought I was going to go to gunnery instructor’s school. (01:16:30) Interviewer: So, when was this that you go to Fort Sill now? Veteran: This was in the late summer of 1966. And anyway, I was sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. And thinking I was going to go to gunnery instructor’s school because I had applied for that. And I’d cancelled my application for officer candidate school because this time, if I had gone to officer candidate school, it would have meant another year in the service. I thought no, you �know. Without a college degree, it’s not really a good job to go to OCS because you know, you’re going to make maybe captain before they rift you out, if you survive that long. And I thought well, you know, if I am going to become an officer, I might make a career out of it. Well, I thought well, I got to get the college degree first so I told them no, I didn’t want to go to OCS. They said, “Well, if you don’t go to OCS, you’re going to go to Vietnam.” I said, “Okay, your point is since all these crispy new second lieutenants are going to go to Vietnam as artillery forward observers? I’ll take my chances.” So, they sent me to a place called second enlistment’s student battery, which was on the main post. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I do want to pause here and back up a little bit… (01:17:51) Veteran: Okay. Interviewer: There are some other aspects of Germany. Part of it is, while you were in Germany, did you pay much attention to what was happening in Vietnam or anything like that? Or were you just focused on— Veteran: Yeah, I did pay some attention on it and on a Stars and Stripes magazine, I saw a picture of a guy by the last name of Scanlon standing on top of an enemy bunker with a captured weapon. He had been in basic training with me. And but my view of Vietnam at that time was you know, if we want to fight communism, we could have gone a short distance off of our coast and gone to Cuba. You know, why—why this big fuss about communism halfway around the world? You know, it was like I am not sure this is really a logical war to be involved in because of the distance and supply problems. You know, it’s halfway around the world. Most of the people in the United States didn’t even know where Vietnam was; they knew where Cuba was because it was just off the coast of Florida. I mean, it seemed like, you know why the big fuss �about—why do we have to go to Vietnam? I had read some about Vietnam when I was in Germany but not a lot. I did most of my reading about Vietnam when I was at Fort Sill, at second enlistment student battery. Interviewer: Alright. And then the other thing about Germany is: how did the German civilians seem to view the American soldiers? (01:19:21) Veteran: Generally, pretty good except for the ones where American soldiers had gone to bars and gotten in fights and so forth. But I found Germans quite willing to show me around in Germany to some of the churches. One night, in the Nazi Party rally area, I had gone into one of these places, entrance “verboten” or “forbidden.” It was a big tower. There were a whole bunch of big towers. They surrounded an area about ¾ of a mile on a side called Marsfeld and you know, which stands for marching field, really. But it was supposed to be a place where Hitler was going to raise the next master race, complete with big beams over the top. This would have dwarfed the super bowl type of buildings, you know. But the building never got completed. You know, there was bomb damage to it. Hitler had other things to do with any manpower, including slave manpower, that he’d use for that. Well, one of these towers—it was pretty close to completed—was being used for a rotating beacon for the airport for the military, which was actually inside of this Marsfeld area. They didn’t have big planes in there; they had, you know, Beavers and Otters and some helicopters. You know, they were basically light observation planes and you know, hacks and stuff for Army officers. (01:21:13) Veteran: There was a, you know, the equivalent of a Beech 18 that was there, which was a twinengine thing. But I think the largest plane I ever saw inside of there was a C-7 Caribou, which is a short take-off and landing cargo plane that was used quite a bit in Vietnam. But anyway, I was in the tower right next to that and I had gone up to the top and I was just sitting there, admiring �the scenery. And I heard this bunch of footsteps on the—or, a set of footsteps on the stairways and stuff coming around the inside of this tower. And I thought I sure hope it’s not a policeman. It was his dog. And I thought how am I going to explain this? And I thought well, I can always play super dumb. And so anyway, the guy comes out: it’s not a policeman. It’s a guy that’s a…what do they call them? Youth hosteling—college student around Germany. And he’s got his guitar with him. And he opens up his guitar case and he’s sitting up there and I am looking at him. And in the background is this Zeppelinwiese, this place where Hitler one time had all of his troops lined up and…Oh, that’s probably a mile, mile and a quarter away but I can see it off there in the distance because it was just a huge building. And he gets out his guitar and he’s singing this song: where have all the flowers gone, long time passing, young girls picked from everyone, young girls gone to young men everyone, where have all the young men gone, gone to soldiers everyone. You know? And anyway, he’s singing this song up there on the top of this big tower. I am thinking, how appropriate. You know, here’s this anti-war Peter, Paul and Mary I believe, song that he’s singing on top of this. And you know, he’s singing it in German. (01:23:25) Veteran: And I thought gee, this is kind of weird. And you know, I listened to him for a while and then it was getting close to sunset so I went over and shook hands with him and said, “Guten Abend” or “good evening.” And walked down. But you know, that was one of those encounters with one of the German civilians. Now there were occasionally some that were really kind of uptight about getting their pictures taken. They possibly might have been involved with the SS at some time during World War 2 and figured that I might have been with the Mossad, which was the Israeli Secret Police that you know, sometimes you know, wrapped people in blankets and flew them to Israel. But yeah, there were some Germans that were kind of fearful of that. I �remember one time coming back on the streetcar, I got a picture of a young girl. She’s, you know, standing by the front of the streetcar, she’s got a balloon—she has been to a friend’s birthday someplace and…But it was—so, I got some neat pictures of some civilians but I generally avoided taking pictures of civilians as much as possible because I knew some were kind of uptight about it. You know and…But we didn’t—didn’t seem to have any real hostility. And some of them were very appreciative of the American soldiers because some of them remembered the Berlin airlift. And you know, so they were real positive about some things like that too. (01:25:22) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Okay, yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Now, we can take you back to Fort Sill where you have gone in now, having been sent back from Germany. So, pick up the story there. Veteran: Yeah. Okay, anyway they said, “Well, you sure you don’t want to go to OCS?” I said, “No.” So, they sent me to a place called second enlistment student battery. That was on the main post. Second enlistment student battery was several stories high. It had balconies on the back that overlooked the parking lot. My job there was to pull CQ, or charge of quarters, every other night, which meant I was sort of like the babysitter for roughly 200 guys. You know, making sure they got tucked into bed, signing for guys the MPs brought back and you know, taking all the paperwork and putting it in the right file cabinet in the right drawer for the first sergeant to deal with in the morning. You know, when he got back in. So, that was my job. Now, that—that was only an every other night thing. The rest of my time was free. Well, I went ahead and went over to the pistol range and shot every day, usually twice. I spent a lot of time in the library, figuring I �am going to Vietnam—I better learn a whole bunch about that. So, I started reading everything I could on Vietnam. I started reading, sometimes, some confidential reports, that you know, since I had a secret clearance. They let me back in that room and let me read some of these reports of earlier battles that were, you know, still appropriately stamped. And anyway, the time came for me to go to Vietnam. And I got another couple weeks leave back home and reported to Oakland Army Terminal. Interviewer: Okay. You had mentioned before when you talked about Fort Sill and I asked about going off base and things like that, and you said, “We’ll have a story for that later on.” (01:27:26) Veteran: Okay. The thing is, I didn’t spend a lot of time off base. But there was one guy from second enlist—second enlisted student battery. It was also known as OCS casual. Now, these guys in OCS casual were guys that had been in OCS for anywhere between 3 weeks and about 4 months. The Army said, “Can’t make you into an officer.” And they turned them loose. Now, you have to remember, OCS beats you down to absolutely nothing. I mean, you know like that in the movie Lord of the Snake Shit type of thing. (01:28:08) Veteran: And anyway, these guys had never been built up to where they really had any selfconfidence or self-worth at all. There were guys that walked out in front of trucks on purpose to get killed. There was one guy that I heard the stuff on the loud speaker system: there was an incident going on up, you know. Talk about privacy. I mean they—in the Army you don’t have that. I mean, I could flip to different bays and listen in on what was going on all over second enlisted. And I heard the confusion up in one bay and I got on the PA and I said, “What’s going on?” They said, “Well, we got a guy from the OCS casuals that’s got a bayonet that he got from some place and he’s threatening to jump off the balcony, into the parking lot.” So, I grab one guy �that was playing pool in the room next door. I said, “Come on with me.” And we ran upstairs to where this room was. And lo and behold, the guy was out there on the balcony. And he was threatening to jump off. And he says, “I’ll kill anybody that tries to stop me.” I grabbed an Army blanket off one of the bunks and went at him like a bull fighter. Got his bayonet folded up in that and three of us jumped on him and held him until the MPs, the guys with the straight jacket, came to take him away. And they actually did. Now, this was not an American bayonet. It was one that he got at some surplus store in town. And that’s how he happened to come upon that…that bayonet that, you know, we caught him with upstairs threatening to jump off into the parking lot. And it was a few days after that that I got orders that I was going to go home and then report to Oakland. (01:30:17) Interviewer: Right. Now, were any of these OCS casuals people who maybe had flunked out of OCS intentionally? Or stalled? Veteran: Some of them may have, yep. Now, there was on guy that came out of OCS…He had only been there two days. The guy had a degree in geological engineering. He worked for some local oil company prior to getting drafted. And he saw what was going on with this breaking everybody down to nothing in OCS. And he said, “I spent too much money on my brain. They’re not going to screw with me.” So, he purposely started screwing with them. Purposely doing everything wrong. Like you know, when an upperclassman told him, you know, you don’t do anything until I tell you to. Well, this upperclassman gets caught by another upper classman and this guy went ahead and marched his troops right through the floor garden and smack into the side of the building. And you know, he kept doing things like that and after about three days, he basically told one of the officers, he said, “You know, you try screwing with my mind, I am going to screw with your program.” And they let him go. And he was somebody I could talk to �pretty well over the OCS casual thing. But there were some of those guys that were mentally gone. They should have—they should have had some real severe psychological counseling before they got turned loose. I can’t—you know, some of those guys, I can’t imagine they ever did anything productive in their lives afterwards. But… (01:32:06) Interviewer: Alright. So, a rather digression there. So, you’re going back now. So, you have gone—you are now headed to Vietnam. We have gotten you as far as Oakland with the— was that the depot you flew out of? Veteran: Yep. Yep. Now, at Oakland, one of the things that we did there: we went to donate blood for the city of San Francisco because once we started taking the anti-malarial meds, they couldn’t take our blood at the blood collection center. Well, it was my first real encounter with anti-war. They were throwing stuff at us. We were baby killers and all this other stuff and I am thinking hey, we are donating blood to your city and to people who need blood in your city. And we are the bad guys? You know, there’s something wrong with this whole picture. Well, my picture of California hasn’t much improved, you know, over the years. It’s like there’s an awful lot of people that maybe if the next earthquake dropped California off into the Pacific Ocean, we might be better off. You know? But because we encountered the same thing when we came back after Vietnam. And— Interviewer: Now, this time when you were at Oakland—so where did you encounter the protesters? Was it at the— (01:33:31) Veteran: That was right downtown San Francisco, at the blood collection center. Interviewer: Right. So, they knew you were going to be there? �Veteran: Oh, yeah. They knew—they knew that, you know, like the Army was brining guys in and that was—it was probably 3 or 4 busloads a day that the Army brought over there to donate blood. And you know, the Army buses rolled up and they were already angry with us. And throwing things at us and you know, the baby killer signs and the whole bit. And I am thinking, why? I mean we are doing—we are trying to do something for your community. And we are the bad guys? You know. But did you want to go from there to the flight over or where do you want to go next? Interviewer: I mean yeah, that’s—I think we’ve… Veteran: Okay. Interviewer: I guess how long did you spend at Oakland do you think? (01:34:32) Veteran: I was there probably about 5 days. Interviewer: Okay. And aside from doing—going and giving blood—how did you spend your time? Veteran: They had us walking around the post. You know, if you can pick it up. You know, please call kind of stuff. If you can’t pick it up, paint it white. You know, types of—types of things. And a lot of times we, you know, spent time reading or just sitting in our bunks. And then they had the thing where we had flight calls and they called my name off and we went out to the Air Force terminal. And we slept in a big hangar in bunks. You know, they didn’t have any bedding or anything on them. We just laid there on the bunks. I didn’t sleep real well that night because I knew where I was going was—I knew I would probably go to a gun crew some place. I’d read about artillery firebases being attacked and the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong coming through the wire. And those types of thoughts were in mind so I just didn’t sleep real well. And I �got out and was standing in a kind of like a porch area outside the side of the hangar. And I am looking and there’s this tractor coming down the taxi way. And the tractor is pulling these wagons that are loaded with coffins. I am kind of…They are sneaking all of these dead Americans back in the middle of the night. Does anybody know that this is going on? And that there are this many Americans coming back every night? Because I had heard the tractors go by but had never paid much attention to it until I went out that one time at…Yeah. There were wagons full of coffins coming back from Vietnam. And so, you know I was thinking yeah, this is…this is going to be a pretty tough year. So… Interviewer: So, when is this now, chronologically? (01:36:49) Veteran: That would be the fall of’66. Oh, probably two weeks before Thanksgiving. We had had a—actually, combination Christmas and Thanksgiving at my parents’ house the week before I reported to Oakland because they wanted me to get a chance to see the relatives before I went. So, my mom had basically everybody over from, you know, for the relatives. We had a Thanksgiving dinner a couple weeks early. So, I finally got a call for a flight and so forth. And we stopped at Hawaii but I—you know, I can’t say I saw anything of Hawaii. Because we got off the airplane and walked around in this fenced enclosure and they wouldn’t let us go anywhere. We got a chance to stretch our legs but that was about it. Got back on the plane and then flew to the island of Guam where planes were taking off to bomb Vietnam already from there. We saw B-52s, we saw B-47s, some of them we could see bombs hanging from the bottoms. (01:38:10) Veteran: We knew they were probably not heading towards Vietnam empty. And anyway, they got us back on the plane and we were supposed to land at Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Vietnam, which is right near Saigon. And the pilot says, “We will have a slight delay before we land.” He said, “There’s a fire fight going on on one side of Tan Son Nhut and the artillery battery is on the �other.” And he says, “I don’t like sharing airspace with artillery rounds so we are going to wait a while until they are done shooting.” And I am looking down at the Saigon River and the mud and the little boats in the river. I am thinking…awfully long year. You know? Well, we landed at— landed at Tan Son Nhut and they put us in some barracks that were right there at the Air Base for that first night. Now, these had mosquito nets on them but they didn’t have any mattresses on them. So, the mosquitoes come up from the bottom and anyway, we were still in our class B uniforms, khaki at the time. And then the next day, they out us on a bus and I noticed okay, the bus has got screens on the windows, heavy screens, and somebody asked the bus driver, “Why are the screens on them?” “Oh, that’s so the Viet Cong doesn’t throw a hand grenade into the bus.” Okay, I am not even to a base yet, I haven’t been issued a weapon yet, and they’re already talking about how the Viet Cong can do me in. and I thought not good. And I also saw a lot of refugees along the road. Now, some of these refugees were sleeping in the wax coated cardboard shipping boxes. That was their house, you know. A family was living in a…in a box a little smaller than the bathroom down the hall here. (01:40:27) Veteran: And sometimes there were people who had died that were just laying along the road that other people were walking around. And that was, you know, a different world than I had ever been exposed to before. From there we went to a place called Long Binh, which was where 90th Replacement Depot was located. Now, at 90th Replacement Depot, I got there just—I had been assigned to Vietnam but no particular unit yet. And 90th Replacement Depot was where they assigned me to a unit. I fully expected to go to the first infantry division because they had 155 self-propels and I was—I had, you know, all my records showed I was an expert gunner on the 155 sp. It only seemed like they would put me in the job that I was probably best trained at. And after a few days, they called my—now, 90th Replacement Depot I noticed they had the �wooden boxes that said poison on the outside. They were yellow boxes, probably ¾ of an inch thick wood on the side. And I found out that they were rat trap—rat poison—boxes. The rats would get the rat poison out of there. And I noticed there was some kind of scummy water around. And I also notice that there was some Vietnamese—they were using like a big hand drill to drill holes for bolts to build a barracks. You know, because some places they had barracks, some places the replacements were still in tents. And 90th Replacement continued getting bigger and bigger as things got on. (01:42:21) Veteran: Well, they eventually called my name and that I was supposed to go to the first cavalry division. And I went to the office and I said, “You sure that isn’t first infantry division?” I said, “First Cavalry Division doesn’t have any 155 self-propels.” And they said, “No, but we have looked at your scores and they want somebody with your capability. You’ll be trained up there.” And I thought oh jeez. I had seen, just before I went to Oakland, I had seen a program called Saga of Western Man on television. And they had a program on that called I Am a Soldier. And it dealt with the A company, First Battalion, 8th cavalry. And a company commander by the name of Ted Danielsen. And I watched those and I thought hmm, well I…at least, you know, if I am going to the first cavalry division, I could end up like a unit like that, which is a real straight unit. I mean, it’s not what I have been trained for but that’s a real straight unit. And I kind of filed that, you know, in the back of my mind. And also, during that time period, I read a 1965 National Geographic article on the use of special forces in Vietnam. And they had quite a bit about a Major Vernon Gillespie who—well actually, at that time he was a captain. (01:44:12) Veteran: But this Vernon Gillespie was quite influential in ending the 1964 Montagnard Revolt. They had a lot of pictures of him in National Geographic. He had been photographed in several other places. Well, I didn’t know that this Ted Danielsen thing and Vernon Gillespie were people �I was going to cross paths with later on. And along with some of the other guys it showed with Ted Danielsen from his A company, the 1st of the 8th. But again, you know, this was kind of at the back of my mind. And I thought well, you know, it might not be a bad assignment anyway. So, they put me on a C-130 and flew my up to An Khê, which was the headquarters of the 1st Cavalry Division at that time. Now, 1st Cavalry Division had gone over there in 1965. They had been there a year already when I got there. The commander of the first cavalry division when they went over was Harry W. Kinnard. Harry W. Kinnard was well known in some of my former reading, particularly about the Battle of the Bulge. Harry W. Kinnard was the operations officer for McAuliffe of the 101st Airborne Division. So, I was familiar with the name Harry W. Kinnard and so forth. And there also, during that first year, they had some rather unusual battalion commanders that went over there. One was a guy by the name of John Stockton. John Stockton later on wrote a book called A Cavalryman’s Life. Actually, his wife finished it up after he died at McGill University Hospital in Toronto, Canada. And anyway, John Stockton had been a young lieutenant during World War 2. He had been involved in, you know, the final few months before Germany fell and he mentions a number of incidents in his book, The Cavalryman’s Trade, about you know, his time in that. (01:46:51) Veteran: But he commanded the 1st of the 9th. Now, Stockton was a rather unusual personality. While they were at Fort Benning, Georgia, he went ahead and bought a mule and decided the mule was going to be their mascot for the 1st of the 9th. And it was going to go to Vietnam with them. Well, it was put on the boat. The Navy threatened to stamp it property—brand it, property of the United States Navy. So, he had a guard put on it. And they went to Vietnam like that. Stockton was not too aware of how they were going to land in Vietnam. He had heard they’d make a beach landing. And so, he went to the captain and asked to see, you know, their landing �nets. He wanted to ahead and inspect everything. Captain had not even been informed where he was going at the time. He’s getting this story about landing nets and people going over the side of his boat in landing nets. And a lot of confusion here. Well, eventually they get to Vietnam and it turns out that there are civilians as well as officers greeting them as the boats pull into Vietnam, a place called Qui Nhon along the central coastline. (01:48:23) Veteran: It had been used as a base by the Japanese during World War 2. And you know, it had a nice harbor and stuff. Well, they unloaded there. John Stockton’s mule was taken off but he gets this letter from Kinnard, or notice from Kinnard, the mule is not to set foot on the ramp of one of the helicopters. Kinnard wants this mule to basically stay in Qui Nhon and doesn’t go to base camp at An Khê. Well, general—a brigadier general knows—points up, taps Kinnard on the shoulder. And here is this mule—it’s in a sling underneath the helicopter. And going by. Of course, Kinnard was kind of irked at the situation. Stockton got to Vietnam. The first raid that they had when they got to Qui Nhon, Stockton has got his mule out. Stockton is wearing his black cavalry hat and a saber and leading this mule, it’s got a pack on the back with two 12 load batteries powering this rotating beacon that’s supposed to be on the back of a helicopter. Kinnard is not at all pleased with, you know, Stockton’s behavior on all this stuff. And Stockton was one of the two guys that if you saw the movie Apocalypse Now, the crazy colonel there played by Robert Duvall? Well, Stockton was one of the two guys they actually used for the model for that character. The other one was James [Jack] Smith who was also later on brigade commander. But he was—General Smith had a photographic memory. But Smith used to go down in his helicopter and shoot up at snipers in the trees. You know, he was that—that type of person. (01:50:37) �Veteran: They also sometimes referred to him as Sniper Smith because when he was battalion commander and then he was in the command helicopter, which was a Huey, he carried an M1 Garand. And if there was Viet Cong running down there all alone, he had the helicopter get to a position and you know, hold it as still as he could and he’d plink the guy with his M1 Garand out of the helicopter. So, some of the guys referred to him as Sniper Smith. Other ones referred to him as Crazy James. But he was a good, straight officer. Now, Stockton, in—you see in the movie We Were Soldiers actually, that was a couple later battles. There were a few battles that actually took place before that. One was called the Mure River, the Tay River, Hospital Complex, and LZ Mary. All four of those were not as big as the ones that showed in the movie, We Were Soldiers. But they were still some fairly significant battles. Stockton played a part in the one at LZ Mary because it was his battalion from—that had the company the 1st and the 9th, that attacked what they thought was a North Vietnamese platoon. It turned out to be the lead element of the North Vietnamese battalion, which probably came chasing after Stockton’s platoon which assembled with the rest of the guys from the company on a small hilltop that got the name LZ Mary. (01:52:26) Veteran: And Stockton went ahead and decided that he was going to reinforce LZ Mary at night, which had never been done by helicopter before. And on the middle of the battle, reinforcing the things at night. But he went ahead and made plans for this. The unit that was split, the reaction force was A Company 1st of the 8th, which is the one commanded by this Ted Danielsen. And they went in by helicopter at night since the landing lights or the normal navigation lights made the helicopters too much of a target, they had infantrymen put the angle head flashlights down on the deck so that they could only be seen by helicopters at the same altitude. And they managed to go in without tangling blades together and dropping off A company 1st of the 8th. One of them �was a guy by the name of John Handlin who I met later on again. But he was shot in the spine and paralyzed. His platoon sergeant was a guy by the name of Ken Revere who took over the platoon. And they managed to hold the thing during the night. Some other guys were like Earl Waters and so forth that there were guys at that time that I got to know later on real well that were in on that. And Earl Waters—if you have ever seen the documentary Shadow of the Blade, about this helicopter that was fixed up and they went and visited Vietnam vets before it went to the Smithsonian in Washington D.C. But it’s last stop on the flight was Agent Fire, New Mexico where they have that chapel that is now actually a state historical park, run by the state of New Mexico. (01:54:40) Veteran: But anyway, the—these guys went ahead and fought the battle and the North Vietnamese backed off because they realized once daylight came, there were going to be lots of helicopters coming in, lots of air and rocket artillery. So, they backed away from this thing. Now, Ted Danielsen said until I wrote the chapter on the 1st of the 8th cavalry for the book 50th Anniversary of Airborne which was put out by Turner Publications, I wrote—Ken Myrtle who was the battalion commander, asked me to write the chapter on 1st of the 8th, which I did. And up until that point, he had refused—Danielsen had referred to the LZ as LZ Spiderweb because of all the tracers going across it at night. He didn’t know it really had another name for the LZ. And he you know, he and I got to be pretty good friends later on. But there were those battles that went on. Now earlier, the hospital flight complex—there was a guy by the name Bill Mosey who was a company commander of Charlie company that actually captured a North Vietnamese weapon that Colonel Myrtle wanted. And after capturing the guy, you know, he sent the weapon back along with the—along with the wounded North Vietnamese. (01:56:15) �Veteran: And Myrtle called him back on the radio and said, “You know, I didn’t know you were going to send the guy that was attached to that rifle back too.” And anyway, you know that became kind of a standard joke. Ken Myrtle was actually offered the job as head of what they called S3 Air and Jet, sort of in charge of the helicopters for air assaults for the 1st cavalry division. Kinnard had offered him that position. Myrtle decided he wanted to command one of the airborne battalions instead. Now, 1st brigade was airborne. I was 1st of the 8th, 2nd of the 8th. And 1st of the 12th plus the 2nd of the 19th artillery. So, those units were airborne when I went over there. And Ken Myrtle was in charge of one of those infantry battalions and he was the one that asked me to do some of this writing. And of course, later on, he put me in a job as the publicity officer for the Charming Mustangs, which was a—the guys that served in Vietnam together, we started with 23, we got about 600 guys contacted right now. But anyway, the Sergeant Major McAuliffe also had a real good choice of NCOs that he picked so we had some real good NCOs over there. Now, one of the other first battalion commanders was a guy from 1st of the 7th, which was Harold G. Moore who was co-author of the book We Were Soldiers Once and Young. Now, I think that is probably one of the best books on the early time in Vietnam. (01:58:17) Veteran: It captures the mood of the American people: the idea that, you know, we thought we could defeat any foe, defend any friend as Kennedy had said. You know, we firmly believed in that and a lot of guys enlisted under that concept. And Moore’s book does a good job of explaining that. And also, it does an excellent—now, I mentioned these earlier battles. Those took place in October and the first part of November. The 10th of November, the 3rd brigade took over. And 3rd brigade was the unit that Hal Moore was with—1st of 7th, 2nd of 7th. And 1st of the 5th. And that made up 2nd brigade—or 3rd brigade. And Hal Moore was commander of one of �those battalions. McDade was commander of 2nd of the 7th. Now the book—I am not going to get too much into the book but it’s very accurately done. The movie is very accurately done except for the last 10 minutes. It shows Elmore going out and chasing the North Vietnamese out of their headquarters and took the Chu Pong Massif. They were, number one, Hal Moore fought for two and a half days. His troops were beat. He went out far enough to account for all of his dead and wounded and pulled them back in. Now, when McDade lost so many guys, a number of people say that McDade had a nervous breakdown during the battle and basically lost control over everything. Hal Moore doesn’t say that in his book but a lot of the other people who were there say that. (02:00:06) Veteran: Now, Hal Moore probably didn’t say it because he was a fellow West Point graduate. But, you know, he didn’t want to put him down. But it was actually Elmore that went out and accounted for the 3 missing guys that, you know, McDade had left behind after that battle in which they’d lost 155. Hal Moore lost 79 during his battle plus one Air Force officer who was flying an A-1 Skyraider that went down. And..but you know in the movie, Hal Moore talks about I will leave no one behind. He, you know, that part is played by Mel Gibson and I think Mel Gibson does a pretty good job of portraying war up until that last 10 minutes. (02:01:02) Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, and… Veteran: Did you want to stop there? Or did you— Interviewer: Well, I mean you are kind of talking a lot about people. Now, which of these different characters were still with the division when you got there? Veteran: Okay. There were guys from Hal Moore’s unit that had come back for a 2nd tour, some of them that were still there. So, I had a chance to interview some of them. Now, when I first got �to 2nd 19th artillery, I got there—by the time I got there, it was getting dark. There was a light on the sign that said “2nd 19th artillery on the way, airborne.” I thought hey, I originally wanted to go to an airborne unit. I am going to an airborne unit now. And I was introduced to them and one of the first things that they did was—I had a secret clearance, so they assigned me as a courier to fly in a helicopter over Pleiku, where I dropped off some secret documents there. Flying over Pleiku was an interesting experience because we flew across what’s called the Mang Yang Pass. Mang Yang Pass is the pass between those two towns. It’s where Group Mobile 100 was pretty much wiped out during the Vietnam War with the French. And you see that at the beginning of the movie We Were Soldiers. (02:02:29) Interviewer: Yeah. But that’s a case where they didn’t do a very good job. It looked nothing like that. Veteran: Yeah. And as I flew over it, I noticed that it looked like a Chinese checker board; there were all kinds of dents on the ground in nice, neat order and nice, neat pattern. And I asked the pilot, I said, “Why does the ground look like that? They are too close together to be foxholes.” And he says, “Well, that’s where all the Frenchmen are buried.” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “Well, the Viet Minh, after they won the battle, they’d go and put two of these Frenchmen in each hole in standing position and they’d use a—like a large post hole digger to dig a hole and they were all facing back towards France. And the saying was that France was where they should have stayed. They should have never come over there.” So, as the bodies decayed, these left little depressions that looked like a Chinese checkerboard all across this hillside. And so, that was kind of a different introduction to Vietnam and the country we were in. Interviewer: Okay. (02:03:40) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SheathelmG2270V1 Title A name given to the resource Sheathelm, Glenn (1 of 3, Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-08 Description An account of the resource Glenn Sheathelm was born in Muskegon, Michigan, in 1946. Enlisting in the Army in 1965, he joins the Army Artillery and undergoes Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and AIT at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before being deployed to Nuremberg, Germany. He is then redeployed to Vietnam where he served with the Fire Direction Control and S2 Military Intelligence sections of the First Cavalry Division until after the Tet Offensive in January of 1968. He sees combat while on patrol, during rescue missions, during Air Assaults, and during the Second Battle of Tam Quan when he receives several minor wounds and is sent to the rear for treatment in the final days of his deployment. He then returns to the United States in February of 1968 where he attends the Western Michigan and Grand Valley State Universities for masters' degrees in library sciences, literary media, and history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheathelm, Glenn H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3b57d865e327ed5ddce09ca37d47449.mp4 70e05d055300e3f57e295d399d63eec2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b38252c413adf56faff109a25c3b223.pdf 6e1d4cef5acbc45b503f9bea765fd390 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Glenn Sheathelm Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: Alright, this is part 3 [hour 3—this is the second interview session] of our interview with Glenn Sheathelm. Glenn, okay: we had gotten you in your story to late 1966. You had made it as far as Vietnam, you were assigned to the First Cavalry division at An Khê, you had already gone up I guess as a courier, fly up to Pleiku. And now— Veteran: That was actually across to Pleiku. That would be west on highway 19, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And it wasn’t really much north, it was mostly west. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And…which was where they, you know, they staged out of for the whole Ia Drang campaign and so forth. Okay and on the way back from Pleiku, we had a little bit of excitement. But it wasn’t any major thing and I got back and they said, “You haven’t been to the welcome camp yet.” And I said, “Welcome camp?” And they said, “Yes, First Cav’s training school or training academy or something like that.” And they said, “We’ll pick you up tomorrow with the deuce and a half.” And I said, “Well, what do I have to take?” They said, “Well, due to the fact that part of this is to get an infantry run camp acclimated but also to get anybody that was working closely with the infantry acclimated to life of infantrymen so you can understand it.” So, �they said, “You’ll be gone five days. You just take your normal field gear and your M-16.” I said, “Well, I haven’t shot the M-16 yet.” And they said, “Yeah, no problem. You’ll go ahead and zero it and get a chance to shoot it at this welcome camp.” So, I jumped onto the deuce and a half and we got to where the welcome camp was and they had some classrooms there that were kind of sandbagged outlines. And they had general purpose tents over the top. They had generators outside some of them that kind of clattered away. And they a piece of fairly new equipment at that time which was an overhead projector. Now, any teacher in the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s wouldn’t have been able to survive, I don’t think, without an overhead projector. They had those there and they had oversized slides and as we got started in the camp, I noticed that there were a couple names that popped up, one being familiar. (00:02:38) Veteran: One of them being Captain Ted Danielsen, who was the guy I had seen in this television program prior to going there. And the other one was a guy by the name of Roy Martin. Both of them were infantry captains. And I thought hey, that’s kind of cool, you know? I thought Danielsen’s company was real well run and he’s—and he and Roy Martin apparently had some input in putting this whole welcome camp program together. And they had been infantry officers and they’d served combat time. So anyway, I was pretty receptive to that and one of the things they had was…One of the instructors came in and proceeded to give us a very gruesome lecture about all the various types of venereal diseases that were around Vietnam. And I think probably everybody in Vietnam at every welcome camp probably got those. And they also happened to mention that if you signed out, you know, at a base camp there were boxes of condoms there. You were supposed to take a couple with you when you signed out that you were going off post anywhere. So, that was—that was part of the classroom education. They also showed us pictures of various types of booby traps and the wounds from various types of booby traps. We got some �more introduction to first aid, dealing with gunshot wounds. We practiced bandaging each other up, throwing different types of splints on. And it was probably about the third day, they took us out to the range with our M-16s and any other weapons we were assigned. Well, I at the time was just assigned the M-16 and of course .45 that I would just carry when I was a courier. (00:04:40) Veteran: And I shot the .45 and didn’t do very well. I never mastered the .45 during the time I was in the service. The M-16 was a little different. They had some wooden, or dark black squares, about like that that had a notch out of the bottom. And those were set out at 25-yards, which they called their thousand-inch range. And we were supposed to go ahead and line up different sights that came up to the bottom of that little cut out, hallowed out square and go ahead and fire three shots and see where they went and we would make the sight adjustment until we had in this area the size of a quarter that had a circle around it and was right below. Well, I did that and I was kind of enjoying shooting the M-16. Didn’t kick bad, seemed to be pretty accurate. And I’d heard some strange stories about it that yeah, it was so deadly because the bullets came out of the barrel flipping end over end, which I immediately knew was just a jungle story. Had absolutely nothing to do with reality because I knew firearms pretty well prior to going over there and no, that would not work if it actually flipped the bullet end over end. It would be terribly inaccurate and I noticed they all made nice clean bullet holes, not only in my target, but every other one that I looked at up and down the line. Well, I kept shooting two that I knew were going to be in. And I would shoot one a little bit off to the side and there was a sergeant there by the name of Carlo. And he says, “Okay, you go ahead and get off the range. They’re not all three in but,” he says, “you’ve done this five times in a row now where you have managed to pull it off. You just want to burn ammo.” (00:06:34) �Veteran: And I said, “Okay.” And he said that—I, you know, heard his name was Carlo and I said, “You have a brother that served in Germany?” And he said, “Yes.” And I said, “Did he get some burns while he was in Germany?” “Yeah.” Well, this was the same guy that dumped the aviation gas, you know, it was his brother that dumped the aviation gas in Germany and that caused the fire in our tent there. And he was, you know, glad I knew his brother but not real pleased that I knew the situation about that. And anyway, we finished sighting in the rifles and he didn’t let me play around a whole lot more that afternoon with the AR-15—or, M-16, he decided that I had it pretty well zeroed. Now, the M-16 was—the First Cav was the first unit to actually go to Vietnam and have that as the issued weapon. You know, there were some special forces troops that had them earlier but a regular Army unit? The First Cav was the first one that went over with it. And it was kind of nice because it only weighed about 7 pounds. That was 2 ½ pounds lighter than the M-14 and the ammunition was only a little over half the weight of what the M-14 ammo, which fired a 762 round, which is also known as the 308 Winchester in American terms. But it had a plastic stock on it, it had a plastic handguard and gas tube that came up underneath the front sight and one underneath that stock and went into a gas impingement system that went down to three little…Well, I guess cylinder rings that sealed it and then the thing worked. (00:08:42) Veteran: Now, it sounded kind of strange because when it fired, both the bolt and bolt carrier came back as one piece and went whipping by your ear where there’s a spring inside of the stock. So, every time you fired it, if there weren’t a lot of other people firing where you had, you know, disturbances from noise, it sounded like a kid just jumped by your ear on a pogo stick. So, you know, you would hear that spring go back and forth. And so, it was a different type of rifle. I liked it. We had at that time—we were only getting the ammo that was made by Remington �Arms and it used the original powder that gun was tested with. So, we didn’t—First Cav didn’t have a real problem with those to begin with. Now later on, they had a different powder thing that caused some calcite build up and they got a little bit less reliable. And you had to clean them pretty carefully because around helicopters, there’s all kinds of dust and crap that was getting blown into them. Well, after the—after the rifle range— (00:10:00) Interviewer: Before you go on with that, just with the M-16: the rap on the M-16 on the main one that I have run across and people have told me about was that they tended to jam a lot and particularly, if you had a full magazine of 20 rounds in it, the standard thing that a lot of them were doing, say by 1969-70— Veteran: Was putting .18 rounds in it and you know, with some of the magazines that seemed to be true. We had Colt magazines. They had some made by companies that made metal toys and you know other things like…there was even the joke that the M-16 was made by Mattel. I saw M-16s made by hydramatic division of General Motors but I never saw anything made by Mattel, in spite of all the jokes. And again, most of them were made by Colt. And anyway, after getting familiar with the M-16, they went ahead and took us out to an area where they had a training center that had a tower in it. And at this tower, there were helicopter skids attached probably 40 feet off the ground. And we would climb up a ladder, get on the top of this tower and they would show us how to hook on to the rope with a thing called a carabiner. Now, you just didn’t hold on to the rope, you put on what they called a Swiss seat which was made of larger diameter but a little bit softer rope. And they issued us one of those and that was something that most of us carried through Vietnam. We’d have them hooked on to our web gear. And now, this Swiss seat—it’d start with a loop around your waist and it would cross in the center and then it would drop between your legs, come up over around your buttocks, loop over �the rope again and then go around and tie off. It also got the nickname the Nutcracker but you know, the real thing was the Swiss seat. (00:12:07) Veteran: And you would tie that on while you were squatting down so there wasn’t any slack because if you didn’t have slack in there, there was less chance of the sudden jolt and some discomfort of this Swiss seat. So anyway, they taught us how to get into the, you know, get those on and we would stand on the top of the tower, hook our carabiner to that where it had a loop over the top. And then we would step onto the skid. Now, when you stepped onto the skid, they would have you lean back and tell you that when you first jumped to go ahead and let out 6 feet of rope. Now, there was a reason why you didn’t let out 2 or 3 feet of rope because if you let out 2 or 3 feet of rope, you were going to come right back into the skid with your forehead just about at the base of your helmet. So, you wanted to make sure that you let out enough rope so you’d actually swing underneath this platform a little bit. And when we actually did it out of the helicopters, we would actually swing underneath the helicopter for the first swing then let go, you know, 4 or 5 times and we’d be down to the ground. Now, there was one video of the First Cav where it shows the helicopter having a problem and coming down very quickly, right after the guy hit the ground with his—with his seat. And you could see this soldier looking very disgustedly at the helicopter and that whole military video. But anyway, we did that several times, just with our web gear on first and then with our packs on because your balance was a little different—you had to hold the rope on the front a little bit different so you didn’t tip over. Now, the first two times, they had a safety guide down at the bottom so if you panicked and let go of the rope, he was going to—you know, there were actually two ropes going through it, he was going to pull one, the thing would jam up on the carabiner. You may be hanging upside down but you were not coming all the way to the ground until he released pressure on that rope �so that you would slide down. So, they had some safety procedures involved in the training with this. The other thing that we did was learn how to survive around helicopters. (00:14:33) Veteran: You know, watching tail rotor blades, approaching from the side not the front where the pilot or copilot can see you all the time, and you know, not all of a sudden little pitch, you lean forward and take your head off or do a pedal turn where you were back there by the tail rotors some place and you know, all of a sudden you’re going to walk into this big fan. Which did occasionally happen in the First Cav, you know you…I think incidents like that generally happened in the Army because you know, you get a bunch of 19 year old kids doing things they have never done before and you’ve got all these dangerous machines around. There was a good friend of mine that never made it to Vietnam because he was moving onto a train car and a bulldozer kind of goofed and he caught a bulldozer blade at the knee. And you know, okay, medical discharge and he’s out. And so, those types of things happened. There were guys that got hands caught in a breech box in Germany. Guys that ran over—you know, got their feet run over by a tank or you know. Things like that happened when you’re around that much equipment. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you are talking about going out off of this platform. A lot of people talk about training. They talk about repelling and learning to do that. (00:16:01) Veteran: Yeah, and that’s what we did. We repelled down. Interviewer: Okay. But then they say that they never actually did that in the field. Did you actually use— Veteran: We actually repelled in twice during my time that I was there. It wasn’t something that we did all the time. But another thing that we trained for was how to get into a CH-47—it’s the �big twin rotor helicopter—if they couldn’t land. now, there—they did have a hoist on them where they could bring you up by hoist into a CH-47 but you didn’t want to do that because if that happened, you were probably going up because you were wounded. And you know, where they would hoist you up on a Stokes Ladder. But the normal way of getting up into those was to climb a ladder somewhat like the Navy used to use getting troops off ships and stuff. Well, with the ship, you’ve got something that ladder hangs up against. Climbing up into a Chinook [CH47] on a ladder that is swinging like this, especially if you were the last person on the ladder because there was nobody hanging on, helping to hold that thing still. And you know, you are kind of falling, trying to grab rungs of the ladder and trying to get your feet on the rugs of the ladder which is constantly moving. That scared me a whole lot worse than repelling out of helicopters, you know. It was just one super frightening experience for me. and I hoped I was never going to have to do one of those in combat and fortunately I did not. Now, they had another thing where they showed us how we might possibly get picked up and it was called the McGuire rig. Now, that was one that not only had the seat down here but it had a shoulder harness attached to it. They were used primarily to get recon teams out. And you know you had carabiners on both sides and this McGuire rig actually hooked onto the carabiners and it would fly you out hanging underneath this helicopter, bouncing through branches until they got to a safe area where they could land on and then you climbed on it normally. (00:18:18) Veteran: Now, this is basically being swung around like a sinker on the end of a fish line. Not really a fun situation. But it didn’t scare me near as much as climbing up the ladder. Now, I didn’t have to use the McGuire rig other than one time in Vietnam. But anyway, that McGuire rig was there and I thought it was in a way kind of cool. It also gave me a sense of understanding special forces and recon teams—what they needed and, you know, so forth. Then they took us �out on a couple patrols where we actually first time went through a village that was all in our safe area. But it had dummy booby traps in it so we could see what it was actually like going through that type of situation. And then we went out and actually did it for real. We went probably a mile and a half outside of the perimeter and did a patrol out there. Pretty much like they normally did around base camp. You know, infantry platoons would be sent out. They would primarily encounter mortar ambushes. You know, the idea was to catch the bad guys setting up the mortar out there to fire mortar rounds at the base camp at An Khê. The targets were that they took were occasionally in troop areas but more frequently it was a big area which they called the golf course. And it wasn’t really a golf course but Harry W. Kinnard says, “You know, that area is where the helicopters are going to come in. We are not going to chew it up with bulldozers. You are going to go out there with shovels and machetes and,” he said, “when you get done, it’s going to look like a golf course because don’t want all kinds of debris messing up our helicopters.” Now, the helicopter—like I said, the First Cavalry Division had more helicopters than anybody else in Vietnam and more than the whole Marine Corps did. (00:20:27) Veteran: So, helicopters were going to be an important part of our life. Well, I got through this— this training thing and got back to the battery area and there was a guy by the name of Henry Stiller who definitely talked like he was from Tennessee but he may not have been. You know, might have been from the Carolinas but anyway he said, “Well, you know, you got your clothes all dirty,” because during that 5-day thing, they didn’t let us take a shower, they didn’t let us change clothes. It’s okay, we want you to understand these infantrymen that you’re going to be supporting, you know. It’s—the only advantage was the first three days we got to sleep on cots in a tent but the last two days, we slept on the ground. You know, like infantrymen would. And the one night we did 9 am bush practice, we actually dug in. So, you know, we said, “Well, we �will go to the laundry in An Khê where you know, the women would wash them in a stream and stuff. And anyway, Stiller decided he wanted to enjoy the features of a young lady that lived in this laundromat area. And he said, “Well, just kind of watch the jeep.” So, I am sitting there out in the jeep with my M-16, wondering where the first grenade is coming from. I’m kind of new to the country and a little bit jumpy at this time. So, I mean, my head is on a swivel continuously this whole time. Now, the jeep actually was not a problem as far as some kid dropping a grenade down the gas spout because number one, it was too narrow and it had the bend in it where it was going to hang up before it went down in there. But the story was with the deuce and a half trucks, that somebody would take a grenade with a rubber band wrapped around it after the pin had been pulled, drop it in there and as the grenade jostled around and the rubber band got weaker because the attack of the fuels on it, the grenade would go off and you know, this truck would go up in a ball of flame. (00:22:46) Veteran: I don’t know how often that happened but you know I had always heard the stories about it and I had some concerns about that type of thing. Well, I also had my First Cav patches with me and they sewed those on at this laundry thing because there was a seamstress right there so you know, I had my patches and all of a sudden I looked not like a new guy but I looked like somebody that actually belonged with the First Cav after that. And Henry told me, “You know, you got to get a flappy hat too.” And I said, “We are not allowed to wear floppy hats.” And he said, “Well, when you get out in the field, you’ll be able to get away with them sometimes.” And I thought okay. So, I went ahead and got one of the floppy hats in town at one of the stores that sold them. And we referred to them as “go to hell hats” because when the majors and generals put their helicopters to bed for the night, that was sort of a comment about generals and spit and polish officers that might be around, you know, that the guys would wear them some at night. �And we wore those on colored teams later on when I got out with the foreign observer team. But didn’t wear that much, you know, when I was with the 2nd and 19th but I did have it. (00:24:15) Veteran: Well, my—we got back in and about two days after that, we got a warning order that we were going to be moved on highway 19 across the An Khê Pass. That’s the one between An Khê and the coastal town of Pleiku. And—or, the coastal town of Qui Nhơn, which was on the South China Sea. And then there would be helicopters to pick us up. Well, I got in the back of this deuce and a half truck and there was a guy by the name of Rufus Bedford. He was from the Detroit area. And he had a hatchet with him, which he set on the top of this stuff we had covered with tarp in the back of the truck. And I made a comment to one of the other guys about the hatchet. And I said, “Is that to help clear the underbrush when we get down?” He says, “No. Not last time we were out but two times ago, there was a Viet Cong that came up the side of the truck and was going to throw a satchel charge into the truck.” And he says, “Rufus took him down with a hatchet.” I am thinking oh, okay. This supposedly, you know, semi-rear job working with artillery FDC may not be as quiet as I thought it was going to be. And so anyway, I kind of thought well, I will keep that in mind about Rufus Bedford being pretty good with a hatchet and you know, being kind of an aggressive guy in the field should I ever want to know who to kind of follow along behind. So, anyway, they took us to this area over the main—over the An Khê Pass. (00:26:09) Veteran: Now, the An Khê Pass by this time had a fuel line that went up alongside the road. And everyone once in a while, they’d have guard posts there that had, you know, like big things where they’d turn the fuel off because the Viet Cong would occasionally find one of these places that they didn’t think was guarded adequately, put some explosives on it and then blow the fuel line. Now, that brought helicopter fuel from Qui Nhơn, where the big, big boats came in, tankers. �They had tank farms and everything there up to An Khê. Now, at An Khê we had fuel, not in big tanks but in things called blivets. They were big rubber things. Interviewer: Kind of like balloons. Veteran: Fuel ones were actually a little bit larger than this room. And they had those, you know, various places. They’d be filled with helicopter fuel and they had little gasoline pumps that would move them from there to the helicopters when they came in to land. So, you know, a good way to stop the First Cavalry division would be to stop the fuel supply. The Viet Cong knew that so there were these checkpoints where they’d close it off and you know, immediately there would be somebody that would be sent out. The engineering thing and get a—you know, pull a bulldozer down because they usually had bulldozers parked at most of these checkpoints so they could get a bulldozer and some engineers. The engineers wouldn’t necessarily stay at the checkpoint but there would be one flown out by helicopter to drive this bulldozer and you know, cover up the dirt holes and craters and so forth. And they’d go ahead and fix this pipeline and the First Cav would continue getting fuel. (00:28:05) Veteran: Well, we had seen those along the An Khê Pass and then we got to this area that looked like a sort of a truck pull over and stop thing and we pulled in there and there were Ch-47 helicopters that landed. Now, this was my first time going into, you know, what I figured could be a combat situation. I thought well, I am apparently not going on the first lift because I am climbing onto a Chinook helicopter. First lift would be Huey helicopters. And so anyway, I climbed in there and they drove a jeep with a combo trailer behind it. And they flew us to a place called Landing Zone Pony. Now, Landing Zone Pony from the town of Bong Son is southwest of there, not too far from a place called LZ Bird, which you know is going to be of significance a little bit later on. But anyway, they dropped us off at LZ Pony with these helicopters. And there �was barely enough room to run things like the combo jeeps around, you know. But we started hacking away at the underbrush and we dug holes and from the hole that I slept in to the jungle, it was about the distance you and I are apart. You know, those first couple weeks. So, we were pretty close to things back there. And we also set up our fire direction center. And the fire direction center was a matter of filling a whole bunch of sandbags and then a, you know, GP medium tent over the top. And you know, the plotting boards in there, the radio was in there, and we had two generators because when you are in a battalion fire direction center for an artillery unit like 2nd and 19th was, now artillery is supposed to move, shoot, communicate. And communicate was a big thing because artillery landing zones were kind of like forts in the far west. (00:30:18) Veteran: You know, where you had the fort with the cavalrymen at it and you had this big open area with nothing around it. Eventually, you’d come to another fort. Well, the idea was to try building these firebases to where one firebase could fire artillery to help support another one. And we could support LZ Bird. They could support both Bird and Pony from LZ Hammond with the 175-millimeter guns but we were out of range of the 8-inches from there. Now, the 8-inches and 155s could both support us from a little bit farther up, towards…Bong Son. But…and of course, Bird and Pony can each support each other. So, anyway we proceeded to go ahead and hack away at stuff with machetes and shovels and after about a week, they brought in a bulldozer in pieces. And the thing was assembled. And that started plowing the whole top of this little hill top that we were on. And, which was cool until monsoon season came a little bit later in December, because it turned it into a total sea of mud. I mean, this is boot-top deep mud because when your drive—well, at that time they also during the monsoon season, they brought in a 3rd of the 18th artillery. Now, the 2nd of 17th artillery, which was an old-fashioned 105 unit. But 3rd of �the 18th had 8-inch and 175 self-propelled guns. To even get those in there across the mucky rice paddies we had to go out with det cord and wrap it around palm trees and blow them in half and lay down a quarter of the road to even get these artillery pieces up to LZ Pony because they had to come across this muddy rice paddy. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were your own guns there at this point? Or were they still— (00:32:31) Veteran: 2nd of the 19th at that time did not have any artillery pieces on Pony. We did on LZ Bird, we did on a couple of the other nearby LZs, like B battery 2nd of the 19th was on LZ Bird. We had 2nd of 17th, which had the old-fashioned 105s on Pony. And these big 8-inches of 175s came in and also at the end of 1966, first brigade First Cav went off airborne status. They wanted to have a last hurrah so they laid on this big mission with C-130s flying over and big pallets of 8inch 175 ammo dropped by parachutes. And they said they wanted us to all make sure we were in our tents or our sleeping quarters in case one of the parachutes failed. I am thinking okay, this canvas tent is going to be a whole lot of protection from this thing that weighs about as much as a car that’s coming down with this parachute. You know, if it doesn’t land out there in the rice paddy, it lands on the LZ right where we are. Well, they dropped the stuff down. And we went out and picked it up by helicopter. Now, remember this is rainy season so the rotor blades on the Hueys did a lot of static building in the rain in, you know, the very dense atmosphere. (00:34:05) Veteran: We quick like learned that when you unhooked one of these parachutes and rolled it up and got ready to hook it on to a helicopter, that the helicopter would come down. You know, you would be looking at the hook probably about that much over your head and you would have this bunch of straps that went to this thing that you know was kind of an eye hook with a bolt through it—a big bolt through it. And you’d go up like this and sort of throw it onto that hook. Because if �you were still hanging on to that metal thing, it—the, you know, as it hit the helicopter, you were going to get a jolt that was going to throw you right off that pallet of ammunition back into the rice paddy with a very noticeable “hey stupid.” But so anyway, we hooked up the stuff and had it flown back in the 3rd of the 18th which was on LZ Pony. And some of the times, the Viet Cong got a little bit bored and we would get some sniper fire while we were out there but generally, you know, there was no real heavy fire that we got during that time period. (00:35:18) Interviewer: So, if your guns aren’t there, why are you on LZ Pony? Veteran: Because at headquarters 2nd of the 19th, we controlled where every gun and force brigade was going to shoot. So, in other words, we controlled what—where 2nd of the 19th shot, where 2nd of the 17th shot, where 3rd of the 18th shot, where 6th of the 16th, which is 155 unit, shot. And of course, any batteries attached to us or any of those other units. So, there were a whole bunch of people that were in an artillery fire mission would call in to us by radio and give the location—grid location—nature of target, and where the nearest friendlies were and we would go ahead and look on our chart, figure out which battery could most safely fire this particular mission, pick the unit and say, “Decent Speech 33, this is Tiger to India,” you know, which is the call sign I used working in intelligence and operations, “this is Tiger to India. Your grid is clear. Go to Fox 13,” which was code for radio channel they would flip to and then they would talk to 1st of the 30th. (00:36:50) Veteran: And we would also put a radio on 1st of the 30th’s fire control frequency because we would check their original data. In other words, they would figure out where, you know, from where they were and where the target was, they’d give the distance in number of meters, the elevation that they had to have on the guns, and we would check that with our slide roll and our �plotting board in headquarters 2nd of the 19th. And then would say, “The grid is clear. The grid is safe.” You know, and 1st of the 30th, they had permission to fire it. (00:37:28) Interviewer: Alright. So, you are doing fire direction control… Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But you had not trained? Back in the states? Veteran: Yeah, that was an the job training thing where they taught me how to use the plotting board and how to use the slide rule. I’ve got a 155 slide rule still sitting in my attic at home. But you know, it’s—and it’s one of those…Well, later on, there was a girl here in Muskegon. She was a 3rd grader at Marquette School. And she was going to do a project on how artillery uses mathematics. Her teacher was a Carol Vance, over at Marquette School. And Carol knew that I had been in artillery in Vietnam so she had this girl come over to Steel School and talk to me about whether I would be willing to help her do her project. Well, she really got into this. I mean, really, really got into this learning fire direction control. And we went ahead and actually made a plotting board. (00:38:47) Veteran: We made a deflection fan out of wood. Not a nice, you know, super cut one with aluminum and stuff but we made the thing out so that she could go ahead and figure distance, direction and look on a map. And we had Steele School, Marquette School, you know, with the difference in elevation. The whole thing plotted out on this map. And she wanted to learn how to use the slide roll so I taught her how to use the artillery slide roll. And she said, “Can we go shoot artillery?” And I said, “Excuse me but these bullets are real big.” And we went down to a place called Foxhole down in Holland that was run by a World War 2 vet. I showed her what artillery rounds looked like. And she said, “You can’t shoot those at your rifle range?” And I �said, “No.” And they said—and she said, “Well, do you know the Reserve units and the National Guard units, where do they shoot?” I said, “Up at Camp Griffin.” “Can we go to Camp Griffin?” “No, we are not going to Camp Griffin.” And I finally worked out a deal where we could go over near Lansing. They had a small field training area where they didn’t actually shoot but where they went through the motions. And there was a chief of firing battery there that was an old guy. And he thought it was the neatest thing he had ever done in his life was teach this little girl, who is standing on top of a couple ammo boxes, how to run the aiming circle and lay the battery. I mean you know, here is this little girl standing up there on these ammo boxes and calling commands to the guns on—to make sure they are all pointed the same way. (00:40:35) Veteran: Now, they didn’t actually load any rounds and tear up anybody’s farm outside of Lansing but you know, they went through the motions. And this girl really, really loved that experience. And I know the chief of smoke did too. He thought that was the coolest thing in the world. So, anyway, back to fire direction control and you know, kind of learning this as on the job training. And captain decided that, you know, I seemed to be pretty comfortable out in the woods, I had hunted and stuff, and he said, “You know, here’s some stuff to make some maps.” And he said, “We want information on where there are any foxholes and spider holes outside of LZ Pony.” And he said, “Go ahead and get three guys to go with you and go ahead and start running, you know, putting together maps on what the terrain outside of LZ Pony looks like.” Well, one of the guys I picked was Rufus Bedford. And one of the times when we were out doing that, we came across this skull. Rufus decided he wanted the skull. Well, I did some checking, made sure it wasn’t booby trapped. And we picked it up and carried it the rest of our patrol. And we got to going back in the perimeter and Rufus Bedford has got his elbow crooked like that and he’s got the skull underneath his elbow, and he’s petting the top of the skull like you �would a little dog or kitty cat or something like that. And of course, the guys on the perimeter, they see him coming in like that and they’re just “Oh, gross!” You know? (00:42:23) Veteran: And we got it back in and I said—you know, he said, “Well, here’s the skull.” And I said, “Rufus, I don’t want the skull.” And he said, “Well, you can put it on top of your radio on the talk.” And I said, “No, I get along pretty well with some of the officers right now. I am not going to put that skull on top of my radio in the technical operations center,” which is this tent surrounded by sandbags. And he said, “Well, nobody sees it real well by where I am.” And he says, “We ought to show it off.” And he says, “You’re—by the way, most of the guys walk along that side of the perimeter to go to the mess tent.” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “How about if we put it on the sandbags by your tent?” And I said, “Well, yeah. Well, okay.” So, I got it put there. About two days later, there’s a guy that walks by and he sees the skull there. And when he caught me at the tent, he said, “Could I by any chance have that skull?” And I said, “What in the world would you want that skull for?” And he sat down on the sandbags with me and pulls out this Dear John letter that he had received. And it’s getting—you know, we are starting into December. And he says, “I want to send it back to the girl that sent me this letter.” And I thought oh, well, that will get rid of the skull and probably get the point across quite clearly to this girl that, you know, this guy was very disappointed in getting the Dear John letter. So, I asked Rufus and Rufus says, “Sounds like a good idea.” So, this guy packed up the skull. We didn’t hear the screams all the way to Vietnam but they probably heard it for quite a while quite the distance around her house when she opened that thing up. (00:44:34) Veteran: And a little bit after that, there was a guy that walked into fire direction control and I looked up real quick and I thought that’s Vernon Gillespie. Now, he’s this guy that had been in special forces. I mentioned that they had had the article written about him in National �Geographic. And I looked and he had a Browning high power that I recognized on his hip. Now, this is not a standard issued weapon. Most other countries in the world used it but the United States did not. And I commented, “Hey, nice looking high power, sir.” And he says, “You recognize that?” I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “What do you know about it?” I said, “Well, Canadian government uses them, Belgian government uses it, most other NATO countries use it.” And he said, “Do you know how to field strip one?” “Oh yes, sir.” And he goes ahead and flaps his Browning high power down in front of me on the radio table and you know, I got a bank of radios in front of me. Go ahead and pull the thing apart and, you know, check to make sure the magazine safety works and then put it back together for him and he said, “Do you know much about foreign weapons?” And I said, “Yeah, I have studied them but,” I said, “I haven’t really had a chance to get to actually handle one of them.” But I said, “I spent a lot of times with Smith’s small arms.” Orel Smith was the curator of the firearms museum at West—at Smithsonian. And he said, “Do you know how to take an AK-47 apart?” And I said, “Yes sir.” And said, “How about an SAS?” “Yes sir.” And then he said, “Next time I come in,” he says, “I’ve got access to an AK-47.” Well anyway, we talked a little bit and he said, “You seem to know your way around pretty well for somebody that has been out of—been over here less than a month.” And I said, “Well I studied it pretty carefully before I came over.” And he decided that yeah, I probably ought to be in the S-2 section and forget this plotting board stuff. So— Interviewer: Okay, and then for the benefit of those who don’t know what S-2 is— (00:46:59) Veteran: Yeah. And you know I was going to be able to help him figure out some information in advance. So— Interviewer: Right. So, you go over to intelligence from fire direction? �Veteran: Yeah. And so that—which was the other half of this GP medium tent. Now, during monsoon season, we actually dug a trench through the middle of it because the water piled up too fast against the sandbags so we had to drain some right through the middle. And we actually built a bridge across which we christened and since Rufus and I were two from the same state, it got christened the Mackinac Bridge across this stream that on rainy days the monsoon had about that much water in it. And you know, just ran right through underneath the sandbags. And so anyway, I got, you know, Gillespie was at that point sort of entering a big part of my life as far as decisions that I made and where I got moved to. And he asked me about Landing Zone Bird and Landing Zone Pony. And I said, “Well, you know, that the Christmas truce—” he said, “What do you got for data on where the North Vietnamese are?” And I showed him on the map, you know, the locations where they had been spotted. (00:48:22) Veteran: And he said, “Who do you think is going to get hit?” And I said, “Probably Pony, sir.” And he said, “Okay, what is your reason for Pony?” I said—or not Pony, but Bird. And he said, “How come Bird?” And I said, “Well, you know we have only been here at Pony for a short period of time.” And I said that, “The North Vietnamese are usually pretty good about putting together sand tables and planning their attacks real careful with these three dimensional sand table types of things.” And I said, “They don’t know that much about LZ Pony yet.” And I said, “We’ve intercepted one of their recon teams on one of these things I had been out with Rufus Bedford and downed several of their North Vietnamese guys that, you know, they had—they had paper and they had already started a map at that point.” And I said, “You know, we may have interrupted them but,” I said, “I really don’t think they know much about Pony yet.” And he said, “Well, I am thinking the same thing because Bird has been there a couple 3 months. And you know, whereas we have only been here a few weeks.” So, he said he was going to explain that to �Lieutenant-Colonel Culp. And Lieutenant-Colonel Culp flew over to LZ Bird and told the company command—or battery commander—and the officers about this beehive round, which is the one that fires all these flechettes out of the 105-millimeter. (00:50:03) Interviewer: So, like a giant shotgun at face— Veteran: Yeah, like a giant shotgun except instead of shotgun pellets, there are nails about that long with fins on the back of them. And anyway, Colonel Culp explained about the flechettes and said that, “Okay, this is the way to warn everybody: you are going to fire beehive rounds and we want at least 6 beehive rounds in every one of the gun pits for the 105s.” So, that was all properly arranged, you know, Colonel Culp got everybody prepared and also had beehive rounds put to the 2nd of the 17th. Now, the thing is the 2nd of 17th was not familiar with beehive but they were, you know, told how to use one. Unfortunately, 2nd of the 17th was not really in a position where it could fire much support except for about one quarter of the LZ with beehive rounds. LZ Bird was a little bit better set up for using beehive rounds, even back into their own perimeter which turned out they did have to do. And anyway, as we are kind of looking at what is going to happen over the Christmas truce, day before there was another one of these recon teams of either Viet Cong or North Vietnamese that slid into a gulley just outside of LZ Pony, between where the brigade headquarters was and where, you know, we were with 2nd of the 19th. We had to be fairly close together because we actually used landlines to communicate. So, there was an area where they had a helipad and all the lines went down the helipad and the perimeter was there. There was this injun country area probably about 75 yards in between. Well, that’s where the bad guys got. And there was firing back and forth at each other between the guys near the helipad and the guys on our side of the perimeter. And even worse, the 3rd of the 18th had just come in and really didn’t know much about this area yet. (00:52:17) �Veteran: And they proceeded to cut loose with 50 caliber machine guns off the top of their armored personnel carriers. Well, I mentioned the antenna farm; we lost two antennas that night as they’re cranking across our own perimeter with 50 caliber. And they also destroyed one of our own helicopters in this little thing. And it turned out to really be nothing except a couple, you know, Viet Cong or North Vietnamese that got in between, fired a couple shots to see what sort of trouble they could stir up and then you know…There were yells to cease fire. And the next morning, I went out and walked the perimeter and was talking to different guys about what they actually saw. Well, except for the incident in this gulley, nobody else had seen any other action around the perimeter. One of the guys I talked to was a machine gunner. Had the name of Thomas Duggar. And some of his gun crew were in getting breakfast at the time so Duggar was the one I talked to. He said now he saw really nothing out in his area. And that evening, this is just a little bit before the truce started, Duggar and his machine gun squad were going out for an ambush and I took a picture of the three of them walking through the mud on LZ Pony, just as they were leaving the perimeter which there’s a copy of that print down at the infantry museum at Fort Benning. It also became the cover print for one of the vet centers annual reports here and it was also used as the cover of a book, Breaking Squelch by a guy by the name of Steve Saunders, which is an excellent book. He wrote that for his children, you know, who were asking the question what did you do in the war, daddy? (00:54:24) Veteran: And it is not loaded with profanities but it’s a very, very accurate picture of what life as an infantryman was at…And I purchased copies for a lot of the libraries around Muskegon. But the cover photograph on there is the one that I took and it show Tom Duggar leading his gun squad. The second guy in the middle was Steve Saunders. Now, Steve Saunders found out about that picture in 1990. He came to the 50th anniversary of airborne. Now, 2nd of the 8th was not near �as well organized as 1st of the 8th was because we’d started getting together in 1986. So, this was reunion number 5 for us. And he came over and says, “Well, I probably don’t know any of you guys because I was with 2nd of the 8th.” I said, “Well, I got a picture of some guys from Charlie company, 2nd of the 8th walking off of LZ Pony, back in December of ’66.” I said, “I don’t know who the guys are.” I said, “One of them…the last—first name was Tom, last name started with a D.” I said, “It was not Dare because I knew a Tom Dare.” And I said, “I can’t remember exactly what it was.” He said, “You got the picture?” I said, “Yeah.” I pulled open my briefcase that I had next to me because I was up at the registration table. And he looked at it and quickly grabbed ahold of chairs, the arms of a chair, and sat down. And he says, “That’s me.” And he points to the middle guy. And he says, “That’s Tom Duggar. He died two months later; was shot in the head.” And he said, “Could you have a copy of that print made?” Well, this happened to be an 8x10. So, I gave him the copy of the 8x10 and I said, “I’ve got a slide. I can make other pictures.” (00:56:22) Veteran: Well, from that point until he closed down his law office, the picture of his family and the picture of him in Vietnam, you know, in that mud, were the two pictures that he had on display at his law office. And he said those were the two most important things in my life, were my Vietnam tour and raising a family. And so anyway, you know that incident turned out to be a picture that is showed up various places. Well, anyway, the Christmas truce came along. We knew where some of the North Vietnamese were and they were close enough they could have attacked either Bird or Pony. But you know, the consensus with some of us was that it was going to be Bird and there were other people that thought it was going to be Pony because we didn’t have any wire out yet. And there was, you know, practically no field to fire for us yet. But �anyway, they hit LZ Pony. SLA Marshall wrote a pretty good book on it called Bird: The Christmastide Battle. Interviewer: Wait, you just said they hit Pony. Veteran: What? Interviewer: You just said they hit Pony. (00:57:45) Veteran: No, they hit Bird. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. They hit LZ Bird but they hit Bird the Christmastide Battle. And—but I was on Pony in, you know, roughly 5 kilometers away. And we fired a lot of support for that. One of the missions that I controlled was the 175 unit that was firing off of LZ Hammond and I could talk to them because we had the long antennas and I was talking to a guy that was on outpost from actually 1st of the 8th cav. And he could see where the mortars were firing on LZ Bird. And I thought well, 175s at that distance are not terribly accurate. I don’t want to use them on LZ Bird because I might hit somebody. But mortar rounds—mortar tubes—sounded like a good target. So, I—he couldn’t give me a grid location but I said, “Well, pull out your M2 compass.” (00:58:46) Veteran: And I said, “Put it under your poncho and charge it with the light and then go ahead and give me an azimuth and approximate distance.” So, he did. And I said, “Is there a hill on the right-hand side?” And he said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Is there another little ridge before you get to the big hill?” “Yeah.” “Okay, where are they in reference to the ridge?” And he says, “Well, they are near the left-hand end of the ridge.” I said, “Okay, good. I think I got it.” So, I went ahead �and started having them shoot 175 rounds. Well, Captain Webber, who was the S-2 officer, had taken off to try to put some mortar because by this time, the 2nd of the 19th artillery’s fire direction control for B battery had actually abandoned their thing and shot up the radios because the North Vietnamese were just outside the tent. And they’d retreated back to where the guns were. So, we really had no real radio communication with the guys inside. Well, Captain Webber took off in an old H-13 helicopter, had a pilot go out fly the thing. And he’s out there, you know, directing artillery fire and then of course the other fire is being directed direct fire by Lieutenant Piper and Captain Leonard Schlenker. Schlenker was B battery’s battery commander and Leonard Schlenker was one of his lieutenant officers. And they were the ones that were primarily running the artillery fire that was shooting at the North Vietnamese, you know, coming at them. Well anyway, Captain Webber made some passes. And he turned around and noticed that there were artillery rounds going off where he wasn’t expecting artillery rounds. Well, he called up on the radio and wanted to know why he saw these big long linear type explosions like 175s. (01:00:52) Veteran: And I said, “Well, I am running those off of LZ Hammond.” And he said to the pilot, you know, “Did you get your advisory on that?” “Well, I don’t know. It was kind of confusing when we took off.” So anyway, Captain Webber is out there circling in this darkness and you know, coming back for another pass on LZ Bird, not realizing this safe area of darkness was also the same one these 175 rounds are going through. So, he changed where his circle pattern was after that. And he continued calling in fire. They then later on sent 1st of the 9th out there to help the guys on LZ Bird. They fired beehive rounds at the North Vietnamese that were trying to turn some of the guns around, like all those Charlie 6 of the, 16th. Guns had been captured. There was a guy from Hudsonville by the name of Gary Peasley who was killed at LZ Bird. He was �awarded a Silver Star. He stood—well, he actually stayed on top of one of the bunkers with his M-60 machine gun and kept pouring fire into these hordes of North Vietnamese. (01:02:16) Interviewer: Okay. Here we are on part 4 of Glenn Sheathelm’s interview. We had been talking about the Christmas fight at LZ Bird and gotten to the point where a soldier from Hudsonville, Michigan had been killed. And so, why don’t you kind of wind up that and move us on from there? Veteran: Okay. Anyway, 1st of the 12th did have some heavy fights and stuff in there. And some of it was—well, when they got to the 6th of the 16th artillery, it was to the point where it got to hand to hand combat in the gun pits around their 155 guns. And some of the North Vietnamese found out that their funny karate things didn’t necessarily work too well when there were some American who was willing to go ahead and grab them between both legs and take their head and turn it around. And then throw the body back over the—back over the side of the fire pit, which did actually happen a couple times there. But that—and you know, some of the North Vietnamese got beaten to death with rammer staffs and so forth as they came in. And you know, when the guys ran out of ammunition, didn’t have enough ammunition with them with their 16s, maybe they had it in a sleeping quarters that was not right by the guns or something at the time, but anyways, you know, there were a number of people that ran out of the small arms ammo. Well, most of the guys as the North Vietnamese took over the artillery pieces, they’d retreat into three guns of Bravo 2nd of the 19th. And there was a Lieutenant by the name of Piper and Captain Schlenker that I already mentioned and they went ahead and were supposed to fire 5-star cluster prior to firing beehive. Well, in the confusion, they couldn’t find the 5-star cluster so they just went ahead and sufficed with, you know, just yelling beehive. And people got down and the North Vietnamese were trying to turn around an artillery piece and fire at the Americans, were �yelling and screaming about, you know, all the things they were doing. “Americans, you die!” all this other stuff and they are trying to turn around the guns and they fired two beehive rounds. (01:04:43) Veteran: You know, the first one was fired and I think it was Piper that said, “traverse left” and they traversed about…Oh, maybe 5 or 6 degrees and fired the second round. And there were, you know, just huge hunks torn in the North Vietnamese line. And that was followed by a rather stunned silence from the North Vietnamese. Like jeez, you know, we just lost about 60 guys in 2 shots from those guns. And so that kind of slowed things down as far as the North Vietnamese. And their attack eventually bogged down. 1st of the 9th was flown in on a sandbar quite near there and a gentle slope that came down to the river and out. LZ Bird got its name because it’s the river’s streams came together and almost looked like a bird from the air, from a helicopter. And anyway, they dropped off 1st of the 9th near there. They managed to go ahead and they hi the back of one of the North Vietnamese units. The North Vietnamese backed away. Now, there was a…Lieutenant Piper had been injured during this. He had a lot of shrapnel and stuff from grenades in his legs. Colonel Culp, who was our battalion commander, got into the other H-13 that we had available at Pony and flew over to LZ Bird. And he got dropped off and he took command of LZ Bird from that point on. Schlenker had been injured, Piper had been injured. And they told—you know, Lieutenant Piper didn’t want to give up, he wanted to stay there at LZ Bird. (01:06:37) Veteran: And Lieutenant Colonel James Culp insisted that he go back to brief Major Hay, who was the S-3 officer, back at LZ Pony, that Major Hay had to be briefed. Well, actually that was not the case. It was a trick to get Piper to get on the helicopter. And he had the helicopter pilot put the word out to me that, you know, when Piper arrived, I was to take him directly to Captain �Risa. who was the battalion surgeon. And so, as this battle is winding down, I walk over to the helipad. And you know, directed the helicopter in when it came in. You know, I could see it, I had a pair of C-25 that I had put in my bag so I could communicate with him as he was coming in. And anyway, I had another medic, you know, form 2nd of the 19th with me. And he had a stretcher because I heard that Piper had lots of leg wounds. And I figured well, we might have to carry. So, we had a stretcher. The two of us would carry Piper down to Captain Risa. Piper was going to have absolutely nothing to do with that stretcher. He had to go talk to Major Hay. It was important that he talked to Major Hay to debrief him. So anyway, I realized there was no way I was going to get him to go down to see Captain Risa so I told the guy with the stretcher to go back down, get Captain Risa and have Captain Risa come up to the tactical operations center. (01:08:20) Veteran: Well, I walked Lieutenant Piper over there and he’s sitting in this folding metal chair on this dirt floor with a GP medium tent and a couple bare bulbs for light, which is what we had in the operations end of the thing. And anyway, he’s really pretty animated. I don’t think I have ever seen anybody so high on adrenaline as Lieutenant Piper was at that time. I mean, he was chattering away continuously to Major Hay. Meanwhile, Captain Risa is digging hunks of shrapnel out of his legs and he’s sitting there on the metal chair. And I am looking back over my shoulder at this going on. I thought boy, that guy is really high. You know, it’s got to be adrenaline because Piper was not one that would have had any drugs at that time anyway. And I thought wow. You know, it was just totally—totally amazed at how wound he was. And I kept doing my job, you know like taking calls on what, you know, they really wanted. Helicopters, if somebody had a target that we could fire towards where the retreating enemy were with artillery. And if I got the call, I would figure out what battery would shoot it and pass it on to the guys �who would do all the data checks with the plotting board on the other side. You know, I could just, you know, from one end of the tent to the other. So, that went on. The battle ended. I had…I think where I went out to wash clothes and wash my body once where I had a guy by the name of Scott with me. And we thought it was going to be perfectly quiet out there. We had a brief fire fight with two Viet Cong. They weren’t North Vietnamese regulars; they were not real well equipped. (01:10:22) Veteran: One of them had an M-1 carbine, the other one only had 2 grenades. And we both had M-16s but you know we were busy washing up at the time so we didn’t see them at first. And when I first saw them, I thought oh jeez, you know. There’s a—you know, Viet Cong or at least, you know, a Vietnamese civilian and he’s got a gun and he’s looking at me kind of evilly and he’s starting to fidget with that gun, getting it pointed towards me. So, I yelled at Scott. Scott got down. And then I noticed some movement off to my left-hand side and there was another Viet Cong that was coming at me and he had his arm back like this. Had a grenade. And you know, they talk about, you know, careful sight picture and everything. There was no careful sight picture on my part. Matter of fact, I think I figured that, you know, I could keep him father away if I stuck my rifle out farther. It wasn’t even on my shoulder at the time. And I got off a couple rounds with semi-automatic. And he started pitching forward. And anyway, it—later on, he started falling and I saw the grenade come out of his hand but it didn’t have any distance to it, you know. He apparently was already dying at that point. But anyway, just came a few feet away from his head and it went off. And you know, I yelled grenade to Scott and Scott got down. And then when he came back up, he didn’t have a good look at the guy with the M-1 carbine either but he fired some shots at the guy with the M-1 carbine. And we did find a blood trail but did not chase it down because there were only two of us out there and we were just out there to wash �clothes and wash our bodies. We were not, you know, we are not going out there for a hunt you know? It’s—that’s just the way it was. Well, this one Viet Cong that I had hit—I hit 3 times in the chest and then once kind of on an angle up through the shoulder as he was apparently falling. (01:12:42) Veteran: And he also had lots of shrapnel wounds on his head and shoulder from the grenade going off. So, I don’t know whether I killed him or whether the grenade going off close to his head killed him. But it turned out to be one dead Viet Cong. Well, we got back in and I reported it. Gillespie was real pleased that, you know, we had gotten the kill out there. Captain Graningham was not so pleased because we hadn’t cleared it with him that we were going outside of the perimeter to begin with. He was the battery command—battery commander for headquarters battery. Well, I was fortunate by this time I was getting along real well with Gillespie and Webber and they basically covered my ass for me on this little incident about being out and not letting his people know. Well, a little bit later we had been out and came back in actually after dark and we found the trip wires that our guys had set out and found them real easily. And I told Captain Canetto and Captain—or Captain Webber and he went over and talked to Graningham, said “Well, you know, I had a guy that just came through the perimeter in darkness,” and he says, “perimeter is not secure.” And Graningham was insisting everything was right. Well, then Gillespie got into it. They went out and found that yeah, it was probably not real well secure because some of Graningham’s infantry—Graningham’s rear guys from 2nd of the 19th work com put lines and stuff up like that. (01:14:32) Veteran: It didn’t occur to them if they wrapped white adhesive tape around these trip flares, they would show up even a little at night. So, anyway Graningham got kind of chewed out a bit on that for not checking the perimeter properly. And so, I am like oh I am in trouble with �Grenningham now. And it…he and I never really struck it off real well the whole time I was…or that he was with 2nd, headquarters 2nd of the 19th. But I got along well with Webber and with Gillespie and with Culp. So, you know, I had some officers covering for me. Now, Captain Webber came to me one day and he says, “We got a correspondent that’s flying in today. She’s a French woman. Her name is Michelle Ray.” And he says, “I’ve heard from some other officers that she’s a bit of a leftist. Now, she wants to come in and look at maps so make sure you have all of the overlays off of them when she comes in because she will just see terrain then and nothing about what we knew about the enemy or what, you know, where our units were.” So, when she got there I had that done and listening to the conversation I thought dumb broad, you’re going to drive your Renault up highway one and normally the only people who figure they are safe driving up highway one are the ones in convoy with a 40-millimeter duster and you know, all this other stuff in line. But you know, she’s going to drive her Renault up highway one. And I explained to her about the, you know, Viet Cong sometimes when there weren’t Americans there’s South Vietnamese regulars around. They had road blocks. (01:16:28) Veteran: And they were—they would collect ransom, you know, taxes, from anybody that was on the road. And I said, “Also, you know, you being a woman and a French woman, you know they might decide to collect you for taxes and ransom you off to your newspaper.” And that is exactly what they did. They caught her and I am thinking well, I told you you were being pretty dumb about that thing. And she wrote a book. I think it’s called Two Shores of Hell. And they’ve got a copy of that book down at the Hackley Library which I donated to but I met Michelle Ray that way. Now, the other correspondent that I saw at LZ Pony was SLA Marshall. Did I tell you about SLA Marshall? Or did I tell you— �Interviewer: You talked about him in terms of background earlier but not about this… (01:17:23) Veteran: Oh, okay. Interviewer: What you are seeing him for at this point. Veteran: Yeah. Well, SLA Marshall I mentioned the book—the battle of LZ Bird had taken place. Well, he was collecting material to write the book Bird: The Christmastide Battle. And I didn’t know that he was coming at the time. All of a sudden, there’s this kind of paunchy, graying haired guy that walks in. he’s got a name tag that says Marshall on it but no rank. And I quickly grabbed ahold of the guy and escorted him back out because all of these maps have the overlays on them, everything is, you know, secret and stuff that’s on there. And I walked him back out and I said, “Well, sir, you’re not allowed in there because it’s all classified.” And he said, “Well, I’ll be back a little later.” (01:18:12) Veteran: Well, lo and behold he comes back in with Captain Webber who introduces him as retired General SLA Marshall, who has written Pork Chop Hill, and I apologized to him but you know. He said, “No problem. You know, you did your job. You didn’t know who I was and you immediately got me out when I walked through that canvas door at the end of the tent.” And so, that was my one and only meeting with SLA Marshall in Vietnam, was at LZ Pony. During—it got close to Tet, 1967. And Tet was not a big battle in 1967 in Vietnam like it was in 1968. Well, about that time we moved to a place called Landing Zone English. Landing Zone English was near Bong Son. It was bigger than LZ Pony was. Matter of fact, they were in the process of expanding the length of the—what they called the PSP, or perforated steel plank, runway so that they could handle C-130s on it. Now, they had been running Caribous in there for quite a period �of time. And at LZ English, we had to start all over again with, you know, a tent with sand bags around it. Put up a new headquarters thing and start building our little individual bunkers that we were going to sleep in. And there at LZ English, they actually had enough generators around there where they were able to run a generator and run movies that they showed on a sheet at headquarters 2nd of the 19th. So, every once in a while, I got a chance to see a movie. Now, one of them was called The Last Centurions. And—or The Last Centurion possibly. But it was about this French officer during the Vietnam war when France was there. And then later on after that was over with, he ended up fighting in the Civil War in Siberia. He was a French Foreign Legion officer. Well, I managed to see the movie later on and see all of it without the clatter of the generator going outside. (01:20:35) Veteran: But I thought that was kind of neat. And they—but primarily, they showed old western movies and so forth, which seemed to be relatively popular. And it was a diversion from the rest of things that were going on. Now at LZ English, we used to get mortared occasionally. And one of the things I did fairly early on was I started putting together a sick call program where we’d go to the villages around LZ English. And actually, started that on LZ Pony. Graningham didn’t like that at all. Gillespie and Webber initially weren’t sure about it until we started bringing back some good intelligence information, you know. That’s when we started patching up the kids. Some of the parents started talking to us. “Oh yeah, yesterday afternoon, there were 20 Viet Cong that were on the far side of that rice paddy out there and they were going which direction.” You know, so they started giving us information. Captain Webber decided that, you know, okay we will start supporting these things. Interviewer: Okay, so to back up a little bit. Explain how you wound up doing this and what your inspiration for it was. (01:21:57) �Veteran: Okay, the inspiration on it was, like I said, I had been a ski patrolman before. I had been involved in first aid. I thought, you know, these poor little kids are caught up in the middle of this battle. They got infected sores primarily on their feet because, you know, if you got a war going on, you got all kinds of artillery shrapnel laying on the ground. You got—the kids were always stumbling over that. They had cut up feet and, you know, infections. Sometimes they had shrapnel in them. (01:22:27) Veteran: And eventually, we got a medic that went out with us and helped with that. A regular, trained medic. And eventually Captain Risa started going out with us some when we were at LZ English. Now, we got started on that right away and everything seemed to go pretty well. One time we went out and there was Viet Cong that were in the village already. They had basically told people to stay in their huts because they were going to ambush the village sick call program. At the time I was in charge of security for the thing. I was not doing much in the way of bandaging things anymore because Captain Risa went along and a couple of his regular medics. Now, initially I had been doing more stuff: cleaning up stuff with phisohex, pulling out little pieces of shrapnel, cleaning the stuff up, debriding the wounds and bandaging things up. We used an awful lot of a thing called zinc bacitracin which now you can get without prescription here in the United States. But we must have used that up by the gallon, you know. And also, I told some people in the church that I was doing this. Well, there were some people that worked for…drug stores and stuff like Runsel Drugs over here. His daughter was dating John Mixer and…not—no, Runsel’s wasn’t. Russell’s daughter was dating John Mixer. Anyway, through the church Runsel’s found out, you know, there were certain things that they had that were outdated. You know, they couldn’t keep the bandages on the shelf anymore so he wrote them off that they �were being sent to Vietnam, boxed them up and sent them off. So, we got some extra stuff like that that could be used. (01:24:36) Veteran: And one of the things was that there was a Girl Scout Troop from Ravenna who had decided to adopt me as big brother in Vietnam. They started, you know, at Christmas time they sent me Christmas cards. That was the start of the thing. And then they’d send letters and every once in a while, I would send a letter back to them. And I mentioned about the poor condition the kids clothing was in. Well anyway, this Girl Scout Troop did a knitting project; they knitted up a whole bunch of red mittens. Obviously, no use for red mittens in Vietnam but we got a big box of them and I explained well you know, it doesn’t get cold enough they really need mittens in Vietnam, you know. Mid-winter it gets down to about 60 degrees and raining which you know, if you’re cold and wet means shivering time but not any danger of frostbite or anything like that. And…but the kids thought the mittens were kind of neat because the color red is considered a sign of good luck. So, they had gone ahead and hung those on their fruit trees around their village. That was supposed to keep away the bugs, or at least they thought so. I don’t know whether it did or not but anyhow that, you know, the mittens ended up hanging on trees and bushes. (01:26:06) Interviewer: Okay. Let’s wind back around to your story. You said you were with one of these patrols heading into a village when the Viet Cong were there. Veteran: Okay. Yeah. Now, at that one there was a girl that ran from around the hut and she started screaming, “You look, no VC!” which meant many VC. And as she was running at me, I noticed that there was a Viet Cong that had just appeared from around the back of the same hut she had come around and he had an AK-47 in hand. And I had the M-60 machine gun at the time, not the M-16 but I actually had an M-60 with me. And normally around the LZ we would �have about 12 or 18 starter strip in it, then they had that ply—or, paper box that had another 100 rounds in it and you’d clip the end of that to the end and it would pull it out of this box but you’d try to keep the box closed so that ammo didn’t get dirty. You just had to keep wiping down these 18 rounds out front. Well, this Viet Cong came around the hut, pointed his AK at this girl that was running and I got on the M-60 and fired. And I remember seeing his Ak-47, firing full auto mind you, and now in this movie Saving Private Ryan that bothered me at the one incident where it shows the troops in the surf and you can see somebody screaming, there’s all the bullets coming in, but there’s silence—nothing going on. You just see this stuff happening, you can’t hear anything. Well, that’s where my mind went. You know, I can see this thing and it was almost in slow motion, just like on the movie Saving Private Ryan. I distinctly remember seeing a couple of those AK-47 cases coming out like this and tumbling in the air with a stream of smoke out of the front of the case. And they flipped off to the side. I am thinking bullets get there faster. I was on the M-60. Well, as the girl got closer to me, I somehow managed to hold that M60 up with just one arm which normally is not something that you can do. (01:28:36) Veteran: I don’t know, maybe the adrenaline was running too high for me right then. But I didn’t drop the thing down. It seemed to stay right where it was even though I was only firing with one hand and I reached over and knocked this girl down so that she was by this dead palm tree, or downed palm tree I should say and was probably, you know, destroyed by something during the war. But anyway, she was laying behind this palm tree and I flopped down to a prone position and this Viet Cong had gone down. He had just kind of gone backwards, slammed up against the wall of this hut and I remember his AK had a death grip on it. He was still firing the thing. And the AK rounds were going up into the thatch roof. And I remember thinking just like snow is this, you know, because it’s winter time and I am thinking about this little back home type of �thing. And they had this stuff was falling down on him. And you know, some of the other guys who were a little bit less savvy at fire fights…You know, they hadn’t started shooting yet and I said, “Shoot the Viet Cong!” And that, you know, finally—you know, a couple of the other guys starting shooting because about this point, the Viet Cong out of frustration starting shooting the civilians. And there were two women that were standing in front of the hut. I saw one of them get shot by this Viet Cong that was behind a well, a stone well. And anyway, I fired a couple rounds at him and a little bit later, he got up and ran towards the hut where he had shot this one woman. (01:30:30) Veteran: And I went ahead and swung at him with the M-60 machine gun and pulled the trigger and it went shunk! It was empty. I had not…Forgotten to hook the big strip onto it, you know, so I could just fire this 12 to 18 round starter strip. And so, I quickly flipped the switch on the righthand side so I could pull the feed cover up, pull the thing back, drop the new belt in, got it lined up, closed the feed cover, and swung back on this guy. Well, he was by this time just about inside of the hut. He was right by the doorway. And I fired and I hit him through the guts and through the hip. But what I didn’t notice, there was a young boy inside of the hut that I couldn’t see because it was dark, you know, this Viet Cong was out in the open. The boy was in the darkness, there was no window on that side behind him. And anyway, one of my rounds went in and hit this kid at the elbow. And after this fight was over, I went in there because I could hear the screaming and, you know, this kid’s elbow was just totally mangled. And that kind of really bothered me because I basically turned this kid into a cripple. You know, just smashed his elbow up with that 308 round. And I had, you know, nightmares about that after I came back. And I used to go down to Lake Michigan and draw it out on the sand when I after a while realized that �with the angle I was at, I—you know, even if there had been a window, I might not have been able to see him in there. (01:32:23) Veteran: This was one of those things that yeah, you know, you’re supposed to make sure of your target and what’s behind it from the hunter’s safety class. But this was not a hunter’s safety class, this was a gun fight. I was shooting at the bad guy. I couldn’t see what was in the darkness anyway. And I had hit the kid. Well the kid was medevaced out to a civilian hospital down in Qui Nhơn. I don’t know what their final result was but I am assuming they probably just cut his arm off. And…But anyway, we sorted out the bad guys. We had not gotten all of the bad guys. We did get a bunch of them. There was a group from another one of the units that heard the gun fire and came running down. They put a quick reaction team together and they followed blood trails and did catch up with a couple more of the Viet Cong later on but most of them, or at least the ones we hadn’t shot in that first fight managed to escape. But you know, it was a thing that once I got the other guys shooting, things kind of went our way. It’s just that there were some poor ones—you know, poor civilians that also got messed up, including this one that I knew I was the guy that did that. And so, that was the only time that we went out on the village sick call that I remember having a problem. Now, there was an Australian correspondent. Came to LZ English. Her name was Kate Webb. And there’s been articles written about her. She’s—you know, you can find her on the computer with no problem. But it doesn’t have, you know, all of her articles that she wrote. Maybe if you were on the internet in Australia, you could find those. But one of the articles that she wrote was More Than Big Guns and it was about our village sick call program. (01:34:32) Veteran: Now, Kate Webb was really only there for one full day. And she, you know, went to other First Cav units, I don’t know which ones that she visited. But she was real popular with us. �She got the nickname little sister. And she looked like somebody had taken this 9th grade girl and said, “No, you don’t go to high school, you go directly to Vietnam and here’s a clipboard,” you know, “and a camera.” And anyway, you know, the press corps down in Saigon had quite a time with her because they just didn’t believe this was a bonified reporter that had had a year of college as well as, you know, a high school graduate and had been sent by one of the Australian newspapers. Now, she actually was born in New Zealand I understand. But like Joe Galloway, she kept following wars for the rest of her life. She went and did a lot of stuff with the Marine Corps later on during the war. I don’t know how much time she spent with the 1st Cav but one of the—one of the stories involved her. The company she was with had stopped because they were just starting to clear a path through a minefield. And this officer, either a major or a lieutenant colonel, showed up, you know, all spit and polish and really looking sharp except he’s huge. You know, he’s maybe 6’4” and just has this, you know, Dan Blocker type of character. And supposedly, he had been a professional football player and had been in the Marine Corps reserve and decided that he was going to do his time over there. (01:36:33) Veteran: Well, I am not sure but there’s an article about the battle of Huế that talks about a guy that commanded one of the units in the 5th Marines that had been a lineman for one of the pro football teams and was over there in Vietnam and was considered a pretty good leader. Well, the story on Kate Webb was that she was sitting there and this guy goes out, he’s ready to walk out into the minefield. And she runs out in front of him and puts her arms out and, you know, like what’s this young woman trying to do, telling me where I can’t go and where I can go? And he goes ahead and brushes her aside and she gets back up off the ground and, you know, he’s by this time headed further into the minefield. And she runs out and grabs ahold of him. She’s wrapped around his neck on his back. And he goes ahead and brushes her off and she falls down �off to the side and about that time, the infantrymen get it across to him that he’s standing in the middle of a minefield and she’s laying in the middle of a minefield that they were just starting to clear. And they had to spend about the next 20 minutes getting the two of them extricated from where they had walked into. But yeah, that’s one of the stories about Kate Webb. And also, in Afghanistan, she spent about two hours perched out on a…the drainage pipe, outside of the window with the bad guys looking for her inside. And it’s cold, you know, this particular time in Afghanistan, and she’s standing up there on the third or fourth floor outside the building, you know, hanging on for dear life to a water pipe or something. And you know, she continued to do that sort of thing and she eventually died of cancer just a couple years ago. But she was somebody that we kind of thought quite a bit about because she was willing to go out and do the different things. Well, stuff continued on LZ Pony. Interviewer: Pony? Or, I thought we were on English now. (01:38:55) Veteran: I mean, not Pony but LZ English. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And the Gillespie, who by this time had moved up to battalion commander and you know, decided that yeah, we probably ought to have an underground bunker at LZ English because he thought we would be a pretty good target. So, somebody from the engineers came with a bulldozer and plowed this trench. And Captain Graningham was sent to go ahead and be in charge of the bunch that went to get some stuff to build this. And we flew on a CH-47 down to Qui Nhơn. And at Qui Nhơn, they had a big storage depot. You know, there’s this area about the size of maybe 6 tennis courts that says—you know, they are stacked probably 10-12 feet high. Toilet type one flush. And we are saying wait a minute…Now, at LZ English, we don’t have any �flush toilets anywhere that we know of. I mean, we have got these tubes that the powder for the 8-inch rounds came in stuck into the ground. The—you know, we call piss tubes. And then for the other job, they had a place where they had 55-gallon oil drums cut in half and you would go into those. There was like an outhouse type of situation. (01:40:24) Veteran: And every once in a while, somebody would be designated to pull that out. Now, there were usually guys that had worked in the field that weren’t very smart and really shouldn’t have been out there anyway and many of them were project 100,000. Now, that was LBJ’s thing where they were going to, you know, turn these guys that were unemployable skills like in World War 2, they had done a really good job at training people that didn’t have a whole lot of skills to do, you know, some fairly important stuff. Well, these guys with project 100,000 were really, really slow and if they got assigned to an infantry unit, the infantry company commander platoon sergeant said you know, this guy is going to do nothing but get people killed. You know, send them back to the rear. And they basically sent them back to the rear where they were turned into what’s known as shit burners. And that’s what they did, you know. A couple times a day they would go out and pull these barrels out and pit some diesel fuel in there, stir it up with a metal rod and set fire to the thing. And I mean some of these guys were so…so dumb that one of the guys was told to go burn—to go out and burn the officers’ shithouse. Well, he didn’t even take the barrels out from underneath the thing when he set fire to it and burned the whole building down. And so, you know, there were some of those guys from 100,000 that made everybody else look bad because so many of them got less than honorable discharges and, you know, or eventually were section eighted out that you know, unable to adapt to military life. And you know, so you saw a lot of the other than honorable discharges out of that. But most of them actually came from LBJ’s, you know, project 100,000. (01:42:26) �Veteran: Well, we would occasionally get mortared at LZ English. Since we were a good stopping point on highway one, they would go ahead and stop with the dusters and convoys there rather than running the bridges through Injun country to the north of us on highway one. During the nighttime, they would pull up and circle the wagons. And there was a guy from here in Muskegon that was on one of the dusters that I will get you his address and phone number later on. But he was one of those guys that spent time in LZ English and he knew where I was. He recognized several of the places and recognized several of the incidents later on. But LZ English, since it was brigade forward, also meant it had a huge ammo dump that provided ammo for all the artillery pieces all over the Bong Son plain and the Sui-Ca Valley and everything near there. And during that time period, 1st Brigade was sent to clear the An Lo River Valley. Now, there’s a book called Brennan’s War that talks about the An Lo River Valley and the Tiger mountains. The Tiger mountains are actually what really is called the Cai Gat mountains just south of Bong Son and then the south China sea coast. But the An Lo River Valley was one of those places that if you went outside any firebase that was there, within 500 yards you could find a fight, you know, any time day or night. And anyway, they decided to move all of the civilians out of there and turn it into a free fire zone. So, all the civilians were moved out. Well, during the process of moving everybody else out, they found some water buffalo. Some—not water buffalo but elephants. (01:44:30) Veteran: And some of those had been shot and were dead, you know, by passing helicopters. And, you know, you put enough 308 bullets, even an elephant will die from it. And a guy by the name of James Kenaffel who was in 1st of the 8th mentions that they had to wait and secure this dead water—or, dead elephant until somebody could come out with a chainsaw and harvest tusks off of him. Well, there was some officer that was crazy enough about elephants that he figured �they had to bring them back to LZ English. They brought them back and put them into a POW compound at LZ English. Now, according to Major Polk who was—took over from Hay, you know, the official report was an intruder had started the fire at the ammo dump at LZ English. Major Hay said no, that wasn’t it. That the barbed wire didn’t really stop the elephants and they stampeded and went into the ammo dump and there was some border ammunition that was already sling loaded, ready to go out to some infantry company the next morning. And there was one infantryman guarding the ammo dump that sort of panicked and he takes his M-79, touches off, misses the elephant but hits this pallet of 81-millimeter mortar ammunition which actually started the whole thing. But, you know, Westmoreland probably did not hear that this had anything to do with elephants. And the press didn’t either. But Major Polk, who was a black major who took over from Hay, said yeah that was the stampede of elephants where the guy cut loose the mortar round. But anyway, that was at, like I said, at night and I saw the explosions going off there and I thought oh jeez. You know? That means we are going to be very short of ammo. (01:46:35) Veteran: So, I quickly went down inside of the fire direction control bunker and said put on an entire niner-niner to check fire except for troops in contact, no interdictions. And then I went over and woke up Major Gillespie. And I told him, I said, “Sir, the ammo dump is on fire.” And the next thing he told me was, “Go ahead, go on the dock and tell them to check fire on any interdictions because,” he said, “all they are going to have there for the next day or two is what they got on the firebases.” I said, “I have already done that, sir.” And I was—he said, “Well, thank you.” You know. “Go ahead and continue on with what you were doing.” So, I ran back over to the fire direction control center, which by this time was underground because of the fact that this little trip with Graningham had been very productive. When we got to Qui Nhơn, we �found out that they had all kinds of stuff there: big timbers to keep things from shifting onboard the boats. So—oh, good timbers to hold up the side walls and all the sandbags that hold up the roof. And we had permission to get those because there was a civilian in charge of that. And he said, “Oh yeah, you can take all the timbers you want. They are just trash over here. They were used to keep tanks from sliding around and other things, you know, when they were coming over here.” (01:48:15) Veteran: But they also had some other vehicles there. They had a front loader there and Captain Graningham was looking at this load of a bunch of—several big bundles of PSP, that was perforated steel plank. He said, “I sure wish we could get those back to LZ English. It would be real good to put across our beams and put sandbags on top of them for good overhead protection.” And I said, “Well, I remember that when the civilian left to go to his air-conditioned hotel room, that there’s a board with keys on it.” And he said, “Really?” I said, “Yeah. I know how to run a front—a forklift.” And he said, “Go ahead and see if you can find keys for the forklift.” And he says, “Go ahead and take two of those bundles outside and, you know, put them in a sling.” And I said, “Two bundles might be a little bit much for that sling, sir. And he says, Well, we will have—we will tell the pilot to take it easy when we go back. But,” he says, “I want both bundles.” So, we went ahead and put the bundles out there on the sling and this guy didn’t come to work until probably 10 o’clock. And we were going to leave earlier of course. One of the other things that I probably ought to digress on: Graningham told me—he said, “Go find their artillery fire direction control center here and, you know, and find out what frequencies and what batteries we can call for if we need artillery fire out here.” Well, I couldn’t find the real fire direction center but I did find a place with a couple antennas and it said ‘officer of the day.’ So, I tapped on it and introduced myself. And I said, “Captain Graningham wants me to get the �instructions for where we can call in artillery fire from and the radio frequencies.” And he—this lieutenant looked at me and he says, “No, you don’t get any frequencies.” And I said, “But Captain Graningham told me.” He says, “Nobody shoots around here. You’re not about to start that.” (01:50:38) Veteran: And I said, “Well, can you sign a note that you’re refusing to give me frequencies and firing batteries?” So, he did. And I went and caught up to the other guys that were going to an engineer mess hall. And I went in there and I noticed that they were awfully quiet and everybody is kind of looking at us like who brought the elephant into the room? And they’ve got—you know, it looks like a mess hall back stateside with metal trays and the whole bit. And of course, we got helmets on, we are all wearing all our gear. And there wasn’t room for all of us to sit at one table so I went to a table nearby where there was some engineers. And I said, “Mind if I join you?” “Oh, that’s okay.” And I went ahead and put my knee on the chair while I went ahead and slid my helmet underneath and then hung my web gear over the back and held onto the chair so I could sit down because if I just had my web gear on, it was going to flip that chair over with. And so anyway, I sat down and he’s looking at me and he says, “You got a magazine in that rifle?” And I said, “Yeah. In 1st Cav, if you go anywhere, even to the outhouse, you better have your weapon with at least one magazine with you at all times.” And I said, “Otherwise, you can get you can get an article 15.” And he said, “But you got all that gear.” And I said, “Well, I carry that to work with me every day from the bunker I sleep in to fire direction control. Hang it on, you know, hang it on the post there.” (01:52:21) Veteran: And he says, “Are those real grenades?” I said, “I wouldn’t be carrying them if they weren’t real grenades.” I am looking across to him and I said, “Where’s your rifle?” And the guy goes ahead and pulls out his billfold and he’s got a number on there that says someplace in Qui �Nhơn there’s a rifle that if they ever get hit, he can go ahead and sign that rifle out. I’m kind of shaking my head like this. A little different world in Qui Nhơn than what we’ve got at LZ English and the head of LZ Pony. So anyway, we go out the next morning and a helicopter comes in and we climb aboard and have somebody who’s sympathetic to our cause go ahead and hook this sling of PSP to the bottom. And we take off and I remember flying back to LZ English at Bong Son. And all of a sudden, this helicopter lurches upward real quickly. I’m thinking oh no. And the door gunner on the front of the helicopter is looking over the side and then I hear him yell to the pilot that we just lost our sling load. Well, apparently there was too much stuff for the sling load. And I quickly ran up to the front and I said, “Can you give me the grid location of where that PSP went down?” And he did and Captain Graningham said, “You get the location?” I said, “Yes sir.” And he said, “Well, we will send people out with two more slings and we’ll see if we can recover that.” Well, they did. I mean, there were some kind of bent up corners and stuff, you know, where this stuff had crashed into somebody’s rice paddy down there. But anyway, we recovered that and used a sledge hammer to kind of, you know, square out the corners a little bit and used it for the roof of our bunker. Now, the motto of 2nd of the 19th artillery was on the way. (01:54:36) Veteran: And Gillespie was, you know, a fairly gung-ho type of officer. He was battalion commander. And he had us paint sandbags that said ‘on the way.’ And we laid those on top of our bunkers so any passing officer would know where the top of 2nd of the 19th was. And so, when our bunker was done, it had ‘on the way’ on it and all kinds of stuff. Well, as the tour went on, I came to a point where I was going to go on R and R. R and R was rest and recreation. Married guys got to go to Hawaii because their wives could meet them there. There were other places like down in Hong Kong where people went. I picked Japan because I thought I will never �get another chance to see Japan. So anyway, from there I went from LZ English to Cam Ranh Bay. And I noticed the guys had air-conditioned movie theaters there. They had outhouses and they slept in dry places. Now, at LZ English it was rainy season and we sometimes had to share our bunker with snakes and that was not good because some of the snakes over there, although they were only about that long, they were related to the coral snake, which we have in the United States. You know, you have to get ahold of a finger or something to gnaw on but the poison was deadly. I mean, they referred to them as two-step snakes. I don’t know if it was really that bad or not. But so anyway, went through Qui Nhơn, went to Japan. (01:56:22) Veteran: When I was in Japan, I spent several days at Camp Zama. Camp Zama is where they had the big house built for the guys who had been wounded. I would go over there every evening and play the piano for the guys that were hospitalized. And during the day I would travel around Japan. I didn’t spend much time with the Ginza or any of those places. But I went to a couple PXs and did my Christmas shopping there because we were headed—I mean this was October of ’67 so I thought it’s a good time to get Christmas presents. So, I got stuff for my sister and all those—all the other relatives and stuff and the girl that I was dating at the time. And sent all the presents back from there. I went to see Odawara Castle. Got some good pictures of that and also, I went to Koni National Park, which is their equivalent of a Yellowstone. And just a beautiful mountain area. Got a chance to go to Mount Fuji. And I ate some good Japanese food there, sitting cross-legged on the floor on a bamboo mat and the whole bit. You know, I had a chance to do all those neat things. And one of the guys that used to meet me on some of the things. And you know, we talked quite a bit. I kind of picked up that he was a helicopter pilot with 22, 9th. But we talked mostly about family, places we had been stateside and the things we were seeing that day and you know, what each of us had learned. He was rather surprised when we got back �on the airplane to go back to see that I was only an E-5. He assumed I was an officer and he says, “You talk like an officer.” And I said, “I live in officer country.” I said, “I didn’t mean to deceive you or anything but yeah I really am just an E-5 who works in S-2.” And he said, “Well, you probably ought to be an officer because you seem to know your way around officer country real well and have a grasp on what’s going on.” (01:58:44) Veteran: Well, a little bit after that I had another incident with a Chinook helicopter At LZ English. I had gone over to get some supplies from the brigade supply area to bring them back, you know, where the, you know, papers and clipboards and scissors and whatever else. But— maybe some typewriter ribbons for the guys that typed on these old-fashioned manual typewriters that, you know, put my notes together. But on the way back, I saw this Chinook come down and it wasn’t right near the helipad but I saw there were a couple of ambulances waiting. And I thought okay, I’ll go—I am a first aider, I can help move some of the guys off the helicopter. And I ran towards the helicopter, hit the rear ramp and fell down because it was all covered with blood—it was slippery and slimy. And I went in the helicopter and most of the guys were dead. I helped carry them out and, you know, I was really, really kind of upset about the whole situation. You know, like who let this happen that so many Americans got killed in such a short period of time? And how did it happen? And as—we were getting—this helicopter was getting ready to leave. I went up and the door gunner was kind of slumped over the M-60 machine gun. (02:00:38) Veteran: And I thought he had just been vomiting over the side. And I went up to him and I said, “It’s alright, you know. They’re all gone.” And he fell back. And he’d taken a 50 round—or, a 50 caliber round had gone right through his chicken plate armor and killed him. And anyway, it seemed like that length of that helicopter seemed like it was forever as I was trying to run in the �blood and stuff and tell the guys, you know, we’ve got another one inside. And as they came back up with me, I took the guy’s helmet off and the, you know, helicopter was already starting to crank up and the thing started lifting off and I was like well, if I go back to where this battle was then I am going to take revenge on somebody for what I have just seen. And you know, I was probably a little crazy at that time. And maybe even a little bit more than a little crazy. But, you know, I wanted to see somebody on the other side die for what I had just seen inside of this helicopter. Well, he flew maybe 100-150 yards and landed at the place where the helicopter was normally supposed to be parked. And I, you know, went to the—where the pilots’ section was at the front. You know, just walked through that open hallway and he recognized I was not his normal door gunner on that side. And he said, “Where is so-and-so?” and he gave the guy’s name. I said, “If you mean the door gunner, he’s dead.” And he threw the logbook at me that he had, you know, next to his seat. (02:02:29) Veteran: And you know, I kind of backed up a little bit because he was obviously really ticked too. And we went outside the helicopter and sat and cried for a while on the sandbags around us where it happened. And I went back to headquarters 2nd of the 19th and I walked back over because I told the jeep driver to drive back when I, you know, went to help with the helicopter. And anyway, they are in there talking about the report going back to MACV that, you know, this particular unit had suffered moderate casualties in the on lo. And I mentally came unglued at that point, you know. I started yelling and screaming like mad. When I woke up the next day, the Captain Risa or one of the medics, somebody had come up and sedated me. And I had been moved to my normal sleeping quarters. And the other guy that worked in the S-2 section under Captain Webber came over and saw me the next morning. He says, “You started yelling and screaming, acted like a straight crazy man last night.” And then I told him what I had seen and he �told me what had happened. And apparently, this unit in the Li River Valley had seen two Viet Cong coming down the path in front of them and went to ambush these two guys. What they didn’t know was that a North Vietnamese company had come down the hill behind them. Stop there? (02:04:18) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SheathelmG2270V2 Title A name given to the resource Sheathelm, Glenn (2 of 3, Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-08 Description An account of the resource Glenn Sheathelm was born in Muskegon, Michigan, in 1946. Enlisting in the Army in 1965, he joins the Army Artillery and undergoes Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and AIT at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before being deployed to Nuremberg, Germany. He is then redeployed to Vietnam where he served with the Fire Direction Control and S2 Military Intelligence sections of the First Cavalry Division until after the Tet Offensive in January of 1968. He sees combat while on patrol, during rescue missions, during Air Assaults, and during the Second Battle of Tam Quan when he receives several minor wounds and is sent to the rear for treatment in the final days of his deployment. He then returns to the United States in February of 1968 where he attends the Western Michigan and Grand Valley State Universities for masters' degrees in library sciences, literary media, and history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheathelm, Glenn H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c98193bd879105585881368ec342e33f.mp4 59cf50917e16f5e0bc7ee8835a057947 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d49d2619ac6dd4403d27bf0ee237fba8.pdf ccbe31dfc9c4589a2504e1677c9327c9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Glenn Sheathelm Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: Okay, we are on session number 3, hour number 5 with Glenn Sheathelm who is still 5 or 6 hours away from a record here for an interview. But we have at this point gotten most of the way through his Vietnam tour but we have the last phase of it yet to cover. So, you can kind of pick up here wherever. Veteran: Okay, after 11 months in Vietnam, you know, it was a 12-month tour. I’d seen some of the things that had gone on out in the field where infantry units had had some real problems because the officers didn’t have much experience, they didn’t know much about the North Vietnamese or Viet Cong. And sometimes the lieutenant type forward observers were not too sharp on reading the maps. You know, there were ROTC officers that figured that you know, this is just a class I am going to; my life and death is not going to depend on it. They found out later on that it did. Well anyway, I decided that I could go out as an artillery recon sergeant, which was the NCO version of a forward observer. After a unit had been pretty badly mauled in the An Lo River Valley, they did—you know, inexperienced new officer who, you know, basically had to spend the rest of his life in a mental institution after he got back. Interviewer: Right. Because in the previous— Veteran: Because of the losses that he had. �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And also, you know, they didn’t have a forward observer with them at the time. So, I said—I told our battalion commander, I said, “I will extend if you get me a job as an artillery recon sergeant.” I said, “I would prefer 1st of the 8th Cav because this was the unit that I had heard so much about, I had seen stuff about them, and they seem to be one of the better units in the 1st brigade.” And he said, “Well, you sure you don’t want to stay and work in intelligence operations?” Because I was doing a real good job for him—this was Vernon Gillespie. And I said, “No, I am only going to extend if I get an artillery recon sergeant job.” (00:02:18) Interviewer: Okay. Now, I think at the end of our previous section, you were talking about your response to that unit being mauled in the An Lo River Valley. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Where you had kind of lost it there for a bit and they had to kind of take you aside and— Veteran: Oh, yeah. Interviewer: And pull together. So—but after that, basically…So, you—so you kind of just pulled yourself together after that and— Veteran: Oh yeah, I—the next morning, I was able to function normally again. But they had to kind of send me to la la land for a few hours because, you know, they are talking about moderate casualties. Well, that was true: moderate when you’re comparing with the whole 1st Cavalry Division. But I had just seen the dead and wounded, mostly dead, from this unit and there was nothing moderate about what I had seen in that helicopter. And you know, the—I wasn’t looking �at the big picture like, you know, I had been trained to do at that time. I was emotional. And I got too emotional in the talk and they decided, you know, they probably would be better off sedating me and having somebody else run the radio rack and so forth until the next day, which was what they did. And after that I came back but, you know, there was still a lot of guilt that, you know, if these guys had a good forward observer with them and some experience with them, they might not have made the mistake. They might not have been hit with this North Vietnamese company from the back. They may not have focused just on the 3 Viet Cong that walked into their ambush. But I figured, you know, I can do a good job out there for them. (00:04:02) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, that entered—you know, guilt entered a little into my thing. You know like, I had been over here almost a year, I know the job, I know the Viet Cong. I can do a lot better job than a crispy new second lieutenant. So anyway, I asked for the job artillery recon sergeant, which you know was a bit more hazardous than what I had been doing prior to that. And of course, I— when I extended, I told my mom kind of a fib that, you know, their Army decided they needed me for another 3 months. I didn’t put that I had volunteered for this and also what I had volunteered to do. I mean, you know, after that I just started telling her about sunsets and asking questions about family back home and, you know, I remembered the Christmas with and Easter and…You know, those types of things. They got very, very whitewashed as far as the letters that went home. There was one person that did get a little bit more accurate picture but—and that was Lisa Medendorp who worked for the Muskegon Chronicle. My mom referred to her as “Glenn’s hippie friend” but she didn’t really talk to her at all and I knew the fact that, you know, my mom was not going to even think about asking Lisa if she got any letters from me. So, she was the only one that had even the vaguest idea of what I was doing towards that tail end. �Interviewer: Now, this is now late in 1966 that you are doing this? Veteran: 1967. Interviewer: 1967. Veteran: Yeah, because I got over there in November of ’66 so this is starting the beginning of November of ’67. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And my first day out in the field, they—the company had been back, you know, at LZ English but they had already gone back out again and were doing some patrolling in a bunch of mountains called the Cai Gaps. And there wasn’t really a placed where they could drop me off right where they were so they dropped me off where I could go ahead and go up the side of the mountain and basically intercept them. And you know, being a map reader and stuff, I knew I could hit the right place and I did. (00:06:33) Veteran: And I didn’t really get to know any of the guys during that first half day I was with them because they were on the move and basically hacking their way through the jungle. But I did know that they were later on going to quiet down and sneak in behind this village where they thought supplies were being brought in from the South China Sea in Saipan up the river to supply the Viet Cong. So, we were supposed to sneak in behind this particular village at night and watch for them to do that type of thing. I didn’t really get a chance to talk to many of the guys like I said but I did call some artillery fire in that night, tried to make it look like it was just interdictions because I didn’t want them to figure out that we were already up there. So, I just fired a few rounds and it turned out later on that at least one of those rounds had been in their vicinity because we found some bloody bandages there and later found some more bloody �bandages in a hut, oh probably 7-800 yards from there. So, you know, I had had some effect but that—the following morning, like I said, we are on a hillside behind this village and we were supposed to get resupplied. They didn’t re-supply us the night before because the, you know, helicopters coming in would have given away our position. So, in the morning helicopters came in dropped off some C ration things. The helicopter came in on a hillside and of course the rotor blade goes across like this. We had a guy that, by the name of Walter Bentley. (00:08:26) Veteran: I had actually briefly met him the day before. And he’d been doing point man part of the time and was hacking through the jungle. He was a little bit overtired. He carried a C ration case away from the helicopter and then decided he was going to go back and mail a letter. Well, he ran back towards the helicopter from the uphill side and went right into the rotor blade. The guy’s name was Walter Bentley. And his—you know, it—the officer’s daily staff journal says, “EM while running to the helicopter from uphill side; hit main rotor blade, decapitated head.” And that’s what it said in the daily staff journal. Well, Bentley’s mom sent some angry letters to Captain Canetto: why did you set up there? You know. My son got killed. You know. Well, Canetto actually felt pretty guilty about that for a while and it wasn’t until one of our reunions when I explained it to him. I said, “You know, we were supposed to be parked on that hillside. We were supposed to be behind that village. And I said that, “You didn’t—you weren’t the one that decided exactly where that helicopter was going to set down.” I said, “Sergeant Gary Wilson was the one that actually brought that helicopter in.” And he brought it in on the side of the hill, close to where all the stuff was going to be distributed. And you know, rather than guys carrying it up the hill. And I said, “That decision was made by Gary Wilson. It wasn’t made by you.” And I said, “You know, you didn’t even see this guy when he walked into the rotor blade. There were some other guys that saw him and screamed at him.” And…But, you know, Canetto wasn’t close �enough to actually see the thing happen. But, you know, ran over there after he heard what happened and they had him wrapped up in a poncho and the boots sticking out. And, you know… (00:10:41) Interviewer: And that’s the kind of thing where people in the air normally are supposed to know basic safety procedures around helicopters. Veteran: Yeah. That you never approach from the uphill side. And although you do approach from the side, normally you don’t do it on the uphill side. You come at it from the downhill side or straight from the front where the helicopter pilot can see you and you know he will give you hand signals if you got to be down lower. But in this case, the guy was running to the helicopter, a little overtired from the day before and didn’t stop to think about what he was doing and went right into the main rotor. And like I said, you know, it was one of those things that I was outside of the perimeter looking at the blood trail from the artillery fire mission that was going in at the time it happened. And I heard “Bentley is dead” and I am thinking I didn’t hear any gunfire. You know, how is Bentley dead? And then they told me and I thought you know, there’s a whole lot of ways you can get killed out here and, you know, it was kind of striking me that this could be a very long 4 months. And—but you know, it was kind of a hard realization but I can’t say that it really bothered me for any long period of time. I still remember exactly the situation and, you know, I had not seen Bentley when he got hit with the rotor blade but seeing him after he had already been wrapped up in the poncho with the blood running out of it, I remembered seeing that extent of Bentley but I didn’t see the incident actually happen. Some of the guys that actually saw it happen, it would have been harder on them mentally for a period of time, especially if they had yelled at him or warned him. (00:12:43) �Veteran: And…But anyway, we went from there and several other missions. One of them that I remember the most distinctly is in November. It was the one that I wrote about with the helicopter going down in front of us and you saw the 5-page thing I wrote on it. And that one was tough on me too because I had seen the helicopter come in the first time and almost stall when it pulled out. I thought either the pilot is trying to fly beyond what his ability is or there is something wrong with that helicopter that it’s not performing quite as well as it should. And I was worried about that helicopter stalling out. And the second pass, it did. It fell back into the trees. And we ended up charging across the rice paddy to rescue the crew. And of course, that meant I had to move artillery fire a little bit farther away because I didn’t know where the crew had taken cover if they had even gotten out of it because you know when it dropped down into the bushes, I couldn’t really see whether anybody, you know, got down on their knees and ran away from it. I could just see all this smoke and stuff coming out. (00:14:08) Interviewer: Now, what was the context of this? Veteran: Okay, the context of that. Yeah, that’s true that they haven’t read the story but the context was that we’d gone in, we’d surrounded a village, we’d done a cordon mission. We’d had a couple firefights early—earlier on in the, you know, that day and two days before. But we were just walking along this gravel road. It was the middle part of the day. The sun was coming down; I remember it was pretty hot at the time. 3rd platoon was in the lead. They’d gone past these two rice paddies and were starting to enter the pine trees. And about that time, there were some Viet Cong who fired from the village that was across the rice paddy on our left-hand side. Fire seemed to mostly be directed at the headquarters group because there were more antennas sticking up from the RTOs there. There were probably only two of us in the 1st platoon that had antennas: me, because I was artillery recon sergeant, and Lieutenant Reed’s radio operator. But �anyway, the fire came into the company’s CP area and we initially took fire, or took cover, behind the side of the road which was raised up above the rice paddy a couple feet. And we were, you know, away from where the fire was coming from and setting up a, you know, where we could have a base of fire. And Captain Canetto was going to do a normal firing maneuver and he figured his—whatever unit probably ought to be 3rd platoon because they had the cover of some trees since they had already gone past the rice paddy. So, he ordered them to start moving forward there and we were going to put down a base of fire. He had me call in artillery fire on the edge of the village and also on the left-hand side, which I did. And then this aerial rocket artillery unit showed up. Now, they are the ones with 24 rockets on the side for—so, we are talking 48 rockets. (00:16:30) Veteran: They—these were the C models before they had the Cobras. So, they had 48 rockets on the—or 24 rockets on a side, total of 48. And they, you know, put down a lot of rockets. And anyway, they made the first pass and I would, you know, I kind of yelled out the warning to the ARA, which is aerial rocket artillery section leader because that’s the one I could talk to. Told him, I said, “You know, the second ship almost stalled out that last time. I don’t think you ought to make another run.” Well, I couldn’t hear the helicopter to helicopter talk but I imagine that was probably something like, “No, I am just fine. Don’t listen to that dumb infantryman. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about” kind of thing that was going on between the second helicopter pilot and the section leader. Well, the second one came in and stalled out and crashed into the trees. Well, Captain Canetto thought well, so much for our nice laid out plan of fire and movement. You know, we got to get over there and rescue the crewmen if they are still alive. So, basically what he ordered was a charge across the rice paddies that would have included his CP group plus the platoon that was next to them plus the 1st platoon which was the bunch that I was �with towards the left-hand end. And we went ahead and charged across through muddy rice paddies about knee deep. And it’s really kind of hard to run that way. And it doesn’t do much for your pulse and blood pressure and all that other stuff when you’re running and getting shot at. And there was one Viet Cong that was over in the trees on the left-hand side and he’s going from tree to tree and occasionally taking a pock shot at us. (00:18:38) Veteran: Well, I fired three rounds. I think all three of them were misses because my heart was beating so bad at the time. But anyway, he apparently decided they were close enough that he had better find something else to be doing and I didn’t remember seeing him after that. Also, I put some artillery over there to give him another concern. But—because on the left-hand side, I could fire but I couldn’t fire near the edge of the village right straight ahead because we didn’t know where the crew had gone. Well, we were getting across there and I had put in fire on one of the bunkers that we had gotten fire from and it had collapsed the bunker and there was a wounded Viet Cong that was trying to climb out of the bunker and the guy that was with me, a guy by the name of Hillary Craig, took a shotgun and basically finished the guy off. And I went to grab the pack and weapon and he says, “Leave the stuff alone. We’ve got, you know, we are too much in a hurry.” And I thought yeah, he’s right. You know, gathering intelligence is not what I am supposed to be doing right now. We are still looking for the two guys or three guys that might have gotten out of the helicopter. So anyway, we moved on. They had found one of the other guys, one of the other platoons had found him. I think actually Canetto was with them. And then we found the co-pilot and he was down on his knees. He was pretty smoke blackened and stuff. And he’d been vomiting and stuff and, you know, we sort of got him calmed down. He wasn’t seriously injured but he was definitely suffering from smoke inhalation and possibly a compression fracture of the back. (00:20:40) �Veteran: He also had a broken wrist. But so anyway, Doc Adkins real—you know, splinted him up. And they said something about the crew chief. And we started looking around and one of the infantrymen saw some legs sticking out from underneath the helicopter. And he ran over there and says, “We got another guy underneath the helicopter. Come on and we will roll it off of him and pull him out.” So, a bunch of infantrymen are leaning up against this helicopter, which is smoking, it’s still got some live rockets and explosives onboard. And everybody is putting their shoulders into this thing, rolling the helicopter off. And anyway, we got it rolled up enough so that Doc Adkins and one of the other guys were able to pull the crew chief out from underneath there. And they dragged him, you know, a little roughly probably. You know, a long-axis drag like you’re supposed to. But, you know, kind of quickly. And they moved probably 30 yards maybe away from the helicopter. And I thought, you know, why did they take him so far from the helicopter? I am thinking yeah, it’s got all of those smoking explosives on the side yet. So, it started to make sense. And when they got him laid down, Doc Adkins says—said to me, he said, “221, can you help me get his helmet off?” And I grabbed the sides of the helmet and pulled it open a little bit and rotated the helmet off in case he had a neck injury. (00:22:22) Veteran: But…and underneath the helmet, his skin looked pretty normal. Underneath his nomex gloves, his skin looked pretty normal. But he looked sort of like an overdone steak on the face because all of the burning fumes from the helicopter fuel. And Doc Adkins went ahead and tried doing mouth to mouth on him and got nothing but, you know, charred flesh and pieces of flesh and he realized it wasn’t going to—nothing was going to really work. And I remember him being on his knees, kind of looking up at the sky with, you know, God please give me somebody that I can at least do something for. You know? But he had this, you know, kind of lost look on his face. And I was in the process thinking, you know, he probably needs a hug and the tendency �was to go over there and give him a hug. And I, you know, there were tears coming down my face too because when I pulled the guy’s helmet off, he had a picture of a girl in there, a darkhaired girl named Carol. Don’t know whether it was his wife or his girlfriend. And a short-timers calendar. This guy just had a couple weeks to go before his tour was going to be up. And you know, I felt really kind of frustrated by the situation. And so, I thought well, I will open my camera. One of the guys says, “No, you don’t take pictures of the dead guys.” And I said, “No, I am not going to.” And I walked over and took a picture of the helicopter and I still do have a picture of the wreckage of the helicopter. (00:24:12) Veteran: But you know, I just had to sort of get away from this thing, let the tears come down behind my camera and focus as best as I could and get the picture of the helicopter. And I did and as I got a little bit more composed, I heard—noticed some more gunfire farther back in the village. Now, what had happened was that Thomas Caulkins from 3rd platoon had gone through the trees on the right hand-side and actually gotten behind the Viet Cong and he was shooting towards them. Well, some of his rounds were coming towards us and of course, we had guys shooting that way too. And so, Caulkins ended up having to, you know, hit the ground so he didn’t get shot by our own guys because, you know, bullets whizzing both ways across where the Viet Cong were. And Caulkins was on the other side, you know, sort of as a backstop for things. And so anyway, he hit the ground and we got over into that area and there was a bunker between several of the huts, it was kind of a rounded top thing. And I got up against the bunker and was initially going to just toss a grenade into it and I thought yeah, but there might be some civilians in here too. So, I flopped down against the top of the bunker, pulled the pin out of the grenade, held the grenade so it could be seen from inside right over the doorway, and yelled “lai dai” and anyway, to get them to come out. And eventually, there was some movement down in there and �an old man came out, followed by a bunch of civilians. And the interpreter asked if there were any more Viet Cong or any more people down there and the older guy said, “no.” So, I pitched the grenade in, you know, just to make sure and…that there were no bad guys that were still hiding in there. And anyway, the old guy it turned out had fought during the time the French were fighting over there. (00:26:36) Veteran: And, you know, was sort of a village elder in this group of people. And after the fight got over, a helicopter came and picked up the wreckage of this ARA helicopter and we moved on. A day or two later, we went back to LZ English and showered. But that was one of the fights that I remembered distinctly in November. Now, air assaults were hit and miss things. Sometimes the bad guys were there, sometimes they weren’t. But about 5 minutes before the infantry went in on an air assault, there would be artillery that would fire on this field or hilltop or wherever we were going. And the artillery would come—would be coming in and the last round that each artillery battery fired was supposed to be a white phosphorus round. So, if there were two batteries firing, there was supposed to be able to see two white phosphorus rounds hitting the LZ, which would indicate we were all done shooting because helicopters didn’t want to go in and land and unload troops when there are still artillery rounds en route. And it sometimes, you know, if there weren’t, I wouldn’t see enough white phosphorus rounds and I would be standing on the skid alongside of the helicopter and reach over with my M-16, slap the pilot up the side of the head, you know, because he’s wearing a helmet and he’d turn around and look at me and I’d wave go around and, you know, okay. You know, there is something that I know about that LZ that says he’s, you know, supposed to make a circuit before he drops us off. But most of the time, there were the right number of artillery rounds there and we would jump off onto the ground. (00:28:36) �Veteran: The door gunners, the helicopters that we rode were called Slicks. They look a lot like the Huey that’s sitting on the pedestal down there by Mona Lake, except they had an M-60 machine gun hanging on each side. And those were the types of helicopters that our first lifts would go in on. Subsequent lifts would sometimes come in on Hueys, sometimes on CH-47s, which were the twin rotored helicopters. Now, when the CH-47 ran a daily trip around the artillery bases, we referred to that as the school bus. And for guys that weren’t familiar with a CH-47, they quick like got familiar with the fact that if the thing is landing somewhere near there, you’d better hang onto your helmet too because the wind blast from the thing is bad enough, it would lift the helmet off your head and send it flying. I mean, it would pick up water cans and bounce those around. I’ve got a picture of that happening too. But like I said, mostly we went out out of regular Hueys. Now let’s see…The next big fight for 1st of the 8th actually we gained information on it. We made an air assault into the mountains between the Bong Son plain and the An Lo River Valley. This was 1st platoon of Delta company and Bob Reed was in charge. (00:30:16) Veteran: And we had a prisoner that had been picked up that was going with us and, you know, he knew where there was a place where the Viet Cong quite frequently stopped and also the North Vietnamese stopped and would meet with the Viet Cong. Well, we got fairly close to there and we were talking to some villagers who said, “Yeah, there was some North Vietnamese that went up that way last night.” Well, while this conversation was going on, one of the infantrymen was looking with my binoculars into this ridge and he says, “Yeah, they got 3 or 4 people up there.” And he says, “Apparently one of them has got some type of a mess kit and,” he said, “they seem to be set up and not too worried about us.” Bob Reed says, “Well, let’s make it look like we are going away from there.” So, we got on a path and made it look like we were walking �away from that particular ridge. Then he had us drop down into a stream that had bamboo growing along the side. Well, we got down into the stream, we are about waist deep in the stream which was relatively clear water because it came down from the mountainside. There was actually a waterfall up on the mountainside above that. And anyway, we followed the stream and it got us up close to the base of this ridge and he had us deploy into a skirmish line and he said, “22-I, I want you to go with the bunch on the left-hand side.” He says, “it will put you on higher ground first but,” he said, “I want you to put artillery fire up where, you know, they saw the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese.” And he said, “Keep it going until we get up real close to them.” He says, “Since you’re going to be up on a little higher ground, you might be able to see some of us in spite of the heavy underbrush between the rocks.” So, I went up there and there were some North Vietnamese and Viet Cong that were having a meeting. (00:32:23) Veteran: It was actually a planning meeting so that the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong were going to attack the town of Tam Quan and hold it over the Christmas truce. Well, we didn’t know exactly what they were doing there when we went up. But as they overtook the area, there were primarily rear North Vietnamese troops which were sort of an easy battle for a line infantry platoon like Bob Reed’s, which was a real sharp infantry unit. And it was a kind of a one-sided fire fight. And Bob Reed says, “Well, we have what we think was their CP under control right now.” He said, “Go ahead and start bringing in the left flank.” And as I was coming in, there was a North Vietnamese that sort of popped up in front of me. And I didn’t think there was, you know, I was wondering how he got there so suddenly because I didn’t see him walk in there. Well, I fired a shot at him as he ran off and I caught him across the ass cheek. And another one of the guys had a better shot at him and killed him. But I went to where this North Vietnamese had first appeared and I thought okay, how did he get here without me seeing him. I thought I �wonder if there is maybe a cave entrance around here. So, I started poking around the bushes near the base of kind of a rock wall. Lo and behold, there’s the entrance to a cave. And I pull my flashlight and shine it down inside. I can see the edge of a great big, you know, metal box—like, you know, milk boxes they used to have on your back porch years ago. They were a metal mound and they had some insulation inside. So, I told one of the other guys, I said, “Come with me and give me your 45, I am going to check it out.” And I dropped down into the entrance of this cave and, you know, here’s some North Vietnamese web gear hanging on the side. Of course, that sort of runs up the blood pressure and pulse rate real fast because okay, where’s the guy that belongs to that. (00:34:46) Veteran: You know, I have just dropped into his cave—he knows where everything is; I don’t know where anything is. And it turned out that he wasn’t there. He’d gotten out of the cave and my artillery fire had kept him from getting back there to pick up his web gear. Well, I checked these metal boxes and checked around for booby traps and they were okay. And I thought well gee, I wonder what’s in these? And I lifted up the top and in the top of one of them there’s some North Vietnamese guidons. You know, they are triangular flags like you see Custer and the cavalry coming to the rescue with in the old-fashioned movies with the cowboys and Indians. Well anyway, I found one of these—actually, there were two guidons and a North Vietnamese national flag in there. And I grabbed the top guidon which said roughly ‘resolve to advance’ which was the motto of the 8th Battalion, 22nd Regiment. And I wrote it down on a piece of paper, put the piece of paper in there, for intelligence information, everything that was written on the flag. And do a real quick sketch of what it looked like and set the flag inside of my shirt— this is going to be my war trophy. Well, I mail it back to my sister and I labeled it ‘scarf.’ She was going to Western Michigan University at the time. And you know, for some guy to send his �sister a scarf seemed reasonable. I figured if I labeled it ‘North Vietnamese flag’ some rear guy was going to pick it up and so much for my war trophy. (00:36:22) Veteran: Well, it got back to my sister and she kept it and then I put it on my wall at home. And after a number of years, I stopped at West Point, noticed they didn’t have a whole lot of North Vietnamese stuff like that there. And I said, “Would you like a North Vietnamese guidon?” He said, “Well, there weren’t any of those that made it back.” And I said, “Would you like a North Vietnamese guidon?” And he says, “You’ve got one?” And I said, “Yes.” He immediately went up and got a registered mail box and so it was sent to West Point. It’s on a rotating display there right now. But so that flag did make it back, along with the web gear. I took the Browning 9millimeter out of it. It was made by Ingalls Company in Canada. And it’s too bad that pistol couldn’t talk because it would have had a lot of stories. Like I said, it was made by Ingalls Company in Canada for the nationalist Chinese back in…I think 1942. And so, it had been used by them when the communist Chinese took over. It probably was on some communist Chinese officer’s web belt for a while. And then when the Chinese started making their own pistols, it got passed down to the North Vietnamese. And I understand the last person that it belonged to before I liberated was the pay officer for the 8th Battalion, 22nd Regiment. But anyway, I carried that the rest of my tour in Vietnam. Was not able to bring it back stateside because I couldn’t get back to rear in time to get the paperwork processed. And we are talking a semi-automatic pistol. And— (00:38:17) Interviewer: But did this raid succeed? Did you capture some of these people who were at the meeting? �Veteran: Yes, we did. It included not the pay officer. We understand that he had a pack full of money and we never found him. Now if we had, the money probably would have been used by guys in 1st of the 8th for getting their laundry done and stuff like that which probably wouldn’t have turned it in. I mean, Bob Reed was known as Lieutenant Reed and his Bandits for Good Cause. He had a real problem with the operations sergeant, a guy by the name of Dave Wright. And I’ve got a picture of the two of them. Both of them are smiling and one of the other guys said, “Seeing Dave Wright and Bob Reed both smiling in the same picture is practically unbelievable.” You know, because they were almost at each other’s throats most of the time. I remember Bob Reed had, you know, his platoon was back in the rear and some of the guys had gotten a little bit feisty back at the rear and he had me go out with him and pull his guys out before the MPs came to get them. And you know, I was sober and I was in the platoon CP at the time and he got the word that some of the guys got in a fight in one of the NCO clubs some place so we went and dragged those guys back before the MPs dragged them back. And of course, they would have delivered them to Sergeant First Class Wright who would have probably made sure they were written up for various charges of one type or another. And Reed wanted to keep his guys out of trouble. We went and got them first. But Bob—or, Sergeant Wright still at reunion time referred to Lieutenant Reed and his Crazy Bandits. And he didn’t think Lieutenant Reed was much tighter wrapped than most of the guys that he ran with and they had the…When the platoon was out on an ambush, they used the call sign ‘Chinese Bandits’ and Reed thought that was a very appropriate call sign for Reed’s bunch. (00:40:45) Veteran: And that name had actually come from a long-range recon group, which we had several guys that were put in Reed’s platoon. And, you know, they were some real aggressive soldiers. But probably not too much to have in the rear area. One of them was a guy by the name of Joe �Musial. And Joe was actually from down in Daggett, Michigan. He hosted one of our company reunions. I went down and helped him with that. And one of his squad leaders later on became a prosecutor down in Louisiana. And he’s the one that did the eulogy for Joe Musial. And I remember in one of the closing comments, he says, “Joe was a fantastic soldier. He was not the type of soldier that you would pull out if you wanted to have a parade or something. He was one of those types of soldiers that you would like to mount on a wall with a sign up above: ‘in case of war, break glass.’ And you know, that’s the type of guy Joe Musial was. You know, he was a bit different. And one of his earlier exploits with the company, this was before Canetto was even company commander, the battalion S-3. This was prior to Major Burba. But he was—battalion S-3 flew in. He said to the company commander, he said, “You know, you’ve got troops down there bathing with no clothes on down in the river.” (00:42:40) Veteran: And the company commander said, “No, I don’t.” He says, “I know where all my troops are and there’s nobody downstream.” And anyway, this S-3 officer said, ‘Well, you hop in the helicopter with me; I will show you.” And they went ahead and flew over and lo and behold there’s these naked bodies laying on the rocks down in the river. And company commander said, “Could you take us a little lower?” He says, “Those aren’t Americans, those are Vietnamese.” And of course, the S-3 officer said, “Why are they naked and why are they laying out in the middle of the river on the rocks?” And of course, the company commander didn’t really want to say too much about what his suspicions were but the previous day, Joe Musial had an ambush out near there. And they caught some North Vietnamese who were crossing the river and were coming out. Well, Musial’s platoon went ahead and gunned them, stripped all these North Vietnamese down, folded up their uniforms like they were going to be washed and stuff, you know, and laid them along the side of the—laid them alongside of the path and then put all these �bodies out on the rocks. Well, the S-3 officer said, “I want those bodies buried.” And you know, whoever was responsible for it, they are going to go down there and dig graves for these guys. Well, Joe Musial took his platoon down. They did dig some graves right behind these nicely folded uniforms, and then they put ‘death from above cards’ on every one of the uniforms and left them right there alongside of the path that came out of the river. It was like a warning for a Viet Cong, you know, look out: we are here. (00:44:38) Veteran: But they did have ‘death from above’ cards. And Joe Musial carried a whole bunch of those. I remember several other guys that carried large stacks of them. I think I only had 3 and I’ve got one that is still in my collection at home with the photographs. But you know, I was not too much into that. And we were told not to use those because CBS News had had a camera crew over there and the camera crew had taken a picture of a—one of the guys putting a ‘death from above card’ in this Viet Cong’s mouth and taking his boot and pushing the guy’s teeth shut, you know, around it and apparently, this was seen back stateside as you know very, very unfavorable. So, officially we were not supposed to use the ‘death from above’ cards. But they were still occasionally used. We had, like I said, a few guys carried whole bunches of them. But you know they had actually been started by Captain Bill Mosey from Charlie company, 1st of the 8th. He lives in the Duluth, Minnesota area. And he and I still correspond back and forth. But his war platoon leader came up with the idea and Bill Mosey went to Barnes and Bigelow and had a whole bunch of them printed up. (00:46:18) Veteran: And then they showed up at 1st of the 8th and for a while they were okay and then of course after this CBS News report, the word went out you know: unofficially, we were not supposed to use those anymore, so their use declined but they were still used occasionally. �Interviewer: Might have worked in an earlier war but not one on television. Veteran: Yeah. It—and that was that, you know. To go ahead and take a pin or fasten it to the top button of some Viet Cong’s uniform, you know, the ‘death from above’ card. It’s…You know… Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: What we frequently did: we’d make a little slit in the card so we would slip it in the button. Interviewer: Okay. So, how long did you actually spend doing this forward observer— Veteran: I did that the last 4 months. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I was involved in the second battle of Tam Quan. And then come January of 1968, we got Agent Orange once in the An Lo River Valley real bad. Number of guys were real sick and were actually taken out of the field that same day. Also, that day we were being led by a 4th platoon leader that none of us can remember his name. I just refer to him as Lieutenant Lost because he couldn’t read a map. And that particular day, he’d been lost most of the day. The engineers were dropped off where we weren’t and he said, “Oh yeah, we got the LZ secured.” I said, “But sir, we are nowhere near that mountain.” And he said, “Don’t worry about it, they’ll be okay.” I watched this helicopter, you know, it’s probably 1500 yards away, drop these guys off on another mountain. (00:48:11) Veteran: And you know, like these guys have got a whole bunch of explosives, a couple M-16s, and 45s. They are supposed to blow up this whole North Vietnamese underground hospital �complex. And of course, they think they’re—that we are right around them, that we got them secured. Well, they look around and like no, they’re out in injun country all by themselves for about 40 minutes until I got over there with the squad and said, “Okay, just follow us. We will meet up with the rest of the platoon.” Well, it was late that day and we were supposed to meet up with the rest of the company and the lieutenant says, “Well, we won’t have a problem getting there because we will just go back on the same trail we did getting out of here because we know where we left the company. And then just go follow their trail back up to where they are.” And I am thinking okay, that’s an awful long way around and it’s going to be dark before we catch up with them. Some of the infantrymen figured that out too. They said, “22-I, is there a shorter way we can get back to the company?” And I said, “Yeah, there is.” And they said, “We would kind of like you to lead the way because we don’t want to follow that lieutenant the rest of the day, especially after it gets dark.” And it was practically a mutiny but it—we were kind of late when we got back to the company area. And all of this time, Captain Canetto was getting chewed out by Lieutenant Colonel Dubea who was the battalion commander, about “Why haven’t your guys got this hospital complex blown? Why did they not have the area secured where the engineers were?” And of course, Captain Canetto can’t do anything about it because he was several kilometers away from where 4th platoon was most of the day. So anyway, one—the lieutenant says, “Well, it was all a guy by the name of Barrett’s fault. And—or Barrett’s fault.” And anyway, Barrett was a black guy. And Captain Canetto, after hearing Barrett’s story, says “Barrett is saying that the lieutenant is a racist.” (00:50:38) Veteran: And he called me in, he says, “You think the lieutenant is a racist?” And he—and I said, “No. Why?” And he said, “Well, Barrett is filing a racism charge against him.” He says, “I’d rather not deal with one of those.” And he said, “What really went on today?” I told him �what had happened, about this lieutenant getting lost and that he wasn’t where he was supposed to be. And I said, “That’s what really slowed us down.” And he said, “Well, what about Barrett taking off after some Viet Cong without permission? And getting called back and not coming back?” And I said, “Well, I was with Barrett and,” I said that, “there were two Viet Cong that crossed in front of us and we took off after them. And Barrett wanted to keep going after them and I said ‘No, we can’t do that because the lieutenant has called in a location that might not be right and they might not clear my artillery fire mission because they’re so far away from each other.’ And he says, ‘You mean we might not be able to get artillery fire?’ And I said, ‘Yeah, that’s right Barrett.’ And he says, ‘Well, I guess we better turn around then.’ So anyway, we turned around and went back and the lieutenant had stopped on the path and he had the rest of his platoon stacked up behind him and they’re just basically sitting there doing nothing. And you know, Barrett and I and Barrett’s fire team came back and we got in line. And shortly after that, we got sprayed by Agent Orange and the—you know, because we were in the wrong place.” And then he said, “Well, sounds like lieutenant Reed made quite a few map reading errors.” And I said, “Yes, sir.” And he said, “Well, I remember when we went back to An Khê at Christmastime where he said he was in a certain location and I remembered having to straighten him out.” (00:52:34) Veteran: You know, and he said that, you know, Canetto had called him up and said, “Well, if that’s where you are, you ought to be able to see the green line from there.” He said, “Also, if that’s where you are, you are standing in an old French minefield.” And he had the lieutenant pop smokes so somebody could go find him and bring him back to where the company was. But anyway, towards the end of this conversation with Captain Canetto he said, “Well, if you don’t think he’s a racist, do you think he’s incompetent?” And I said, “Well, yes sir.” And he said, �“Well, this guy has been out a month and a half. He’s not learning his job and he’s still making some of the same mistakes.” And he said, “I think he is incompetent too. I am going to have him replaced.” Well so a little bit later he calls the lieutenant up and, you know, the lieutenant comes to his CP. And he says, “Lieutenant, I am sending you back to the rear.” He said, “You make too many mistakes to be a platoon leader in my company.” And this lieutenant said, “Well, I can read a map at 30 miles per hour out of the turret of a tank.” This guy had been an armor officer someplace. And Captain Canetto said, “Well, that may be true but out here there are no road signs.” And he said, “You’re going back to rear.” And that was the last that we saw of Lieutenant Lost. (00:54:02) Veteran: The story was that he was given the job of brigade sanitation engineer, which was basically the officer in charge of, you know, making sure the garbage was properly disposed of and the shit was burned properly. But I don’t really know if there is any truth to that but I heard that from one of the other infantrymen. But so, Canetto was not above getting rid of incompetents if he had them. And he did get rid of that lieutenant. And the rest of the officers we had were all pretty good. Now, Captain Canetto thought Reed was probably the best in his—he thought Lieutenant Barrick was good too but Barrick was wounded. And his replacement wasn’t quite as sharp as Barrick was. So, his second choice after that was Nelson DeMille. Nelson DeMille was a very famous mystery book author. One of them was turned into a movie called The General’s Daughter. But anyway, he did Nightfall and a whole bunch of things. Mystery authors are quite frequently familiar with Nelson Demille. He’s written a lot of mysteries. Usually one of his main characters is a Vietnam vet and sometimes the Vietnam vet is based on the composites of several guys that were with our unit. For instance, in Up Country, he mentions the fight between a Viet Cong who had a machete and an American troop who had an �entrenching tool. And the American with the entrenching tool wins the fight. Well, Hillary Craig had actually killed a North Vietnamese with an entrenching tool while I was with them and I said, “Hillary, what did you do that for?” And he said, “Never killed anybody with an e tool before.” And Hillary Craig was one of those guys who was a very aggressive soldier. I never saw him abuse a civilian at any time. You know, he was good there but he loved being in battle. (00:56:25) Veteran: He was very good at it. And he later on went—you know, had difficulty adjusting to civilian life for a while so he was a guide up in the Yukon area for a number of years. And eventually was building sets and huts up there for the National Film Board of Canada. And one of them discovered that, you know, he was also a very good cook and went back home to open a restaurant in the state of Washington. Which he did, which is called Alligator Soul. And later on, his second wife was from Atlanta, Georgia and they also opened an Alligator Soul in a historic district of Atlanta, Georgia. And the story behind Alligator Soul is, you know, an alligator is an ugly creature but it’s still got a soul and personality that, you know, we ought to pay attention to. And that was why the Alligator Soul. And you know…But he died—well, let’s see: he was awarded the Silver Star for fighting in the A Shau after I left. He knocked out a tank with an M72, a light anti-tank weapon from the side. And you know, captured a lot of North Vietnamese equipment. Matter of fact, there’s a television thing where it shows the American troops coming back with a bunch of Russian trucks they captured in the A Shau and Hillary Craig is the one standing in the back of the first truck with his M-16 in hand and this big smile on his face, a scarf blowing in the wind. (00:58:19) Veteran: But like I said, he was a real aggressive soldier but real good at what he did. �Interviewer: Okay. Now, was the event with Lieutenant Lost, was that one of the last things you did in the field? Or…? Veteran: Actually, that—we fought the second battle of Tam Phon. There weren’t too many of us there because most of Delta company was kept to look for the 18th North Vietnamese regiment. There was one battalion that hadn’t arrived and the idea was that 1st of the 8th would find them first and put artillery fire on them. So, I really only spent one night in the second battle of Tam Phon. Now, during that time I picked up a compression fracture of the spine, some burns on one hand, and also some lacerations from a bullet that bounced off the APC. None of this stuff was serious but the fact that I was limping, somebody thought I was more serious and they sent me back to the hospital at LZ English. And from there, I was supposed to go to Qui Nhơn where they would get a better look at the back and determine how bad it was and whether I ought to be in a back brace and ought to be back in the rear or whether I could go back out to the infantry company. Well, I wanted to go back out with the infantry company even though I still hurt, so I put my backpack frame on and it felt better with the backpack frame and the radio. So, I went out to my company but I forgot to make sure everybody knew that. And for a while, I was listed as missing in action. They were looking for me at hospitals and they eventually got it straightened out but I didn’t get paid for my last two months in Vietnam. (01:00:15) Veteran: You know, December—well, actually December, January, and February I didn’t get paid for those until I got back stateside so I couldn’t buy another camera after the one got ruined during the battle of Tam Phon. Interviewer: Okay, so what actually happened to you at Tam Phog? �Veteran: Actually, the compression fracture of the spine—there was a .50 caliber machine gun that was on this burning armored personnel carrier. And there were a—you know, we are getting shot at. This armored personnel carrier was burning because it got hit by a recoilless rifle. And there were other guys—one guy that was put in for a Silver Star there actually climbed into the burning vehicle and amputated a guy’s leg at the knee that was trapped in there. And of course, I had some blood from him on because I helped, you know, bandage and put the tourniquet on the guy’s leg. Well, people saw all the blood on me and thought I was a whole lot worse than I thought I was because I knew I had a sprained ankle, I knew I tore my back because I jumped off this armored personnel carrier with a .50 caliber machine gun across my arms. This is a heavy load of steel, you know. Not really good to be jumping 7 feet and carrying this so that was probably my first compression fracture with the spine. And I’ve done several since then with various things that I have done. But Lottie is not pleased with what my spine looks like right now. Interviewer: Alright. This is now hour 6 of the Glenn Sheathelm interview. We had now kind of made it sort of to late 1967 and you’re getting in the last couple of months now of your Vietnam tour. And now you get a change of scenery. (01:02:16) Veteran: Okay, after December of 1967, we did a little bit of patrolling in the An Lo River Valley in early ’68. Now, I mentioned about lieutenant; he was replaced probably a little bit before the middle of January of ’68. And it was a week or two after that, we got word that we were going to go up to the de-militarized zone and help the Marines at Khe Sanh. We boarded a C-130 at LZ English. When we boarded the C-130, one of the infantrymen decided to pull a typical infantrymen’s thing and he had a hand grenade pin in his helmet and he pulled it out and he says, “Anybody know where the rest of my hand grenade is?” And of course, the load master �on the C-130 turns white as a sheet. And you know, then he realized that he had been joked, you know, on this thing. But you know, there was some real concern that someplace there was a hand grenade minus the pin rolling around inside that C-130. And but, it took our whole company on board the C-130 and of course, the story from the C-130 load master had told us that you know, we couldn’t carry hand grenades. Well, Captain Canetto told us to go behind the conexes and he said that, “I don’t want to see a hand grenade outside of your packs, you know, when we get back onboard the helicopters.” Or onboard the C-130. So, we hid all of our stuff in there but Captain Canetto was not going to leave any stuff behind. He knew that maybe when we got up there that they might not have enough ammo or grenades or anything like that and he was going to be combat ready. You know, it’s like 5 minutes after we walked off that C-130, we were going to be ready to go into the field, which basically was what he was set up for. So anyway, we took the C-130 and landed it the Hue/Phu Bai, which is the airport at Huế. And they loaded us on C130s and flew us up to near the de-militarized zone. (01:04:30) Veteran: A place—well, Quang Tri is the last big town before you get to the de-militarized zone. There’s small villages like Qua Viet and Con Thien and so forth north of that. But Con Thien got the name— Interviewer: Could you land a C-130 on Quang Tri? Or did you take trucks up there? Veteran: We took C-47s. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: The CH-47— Interviewer: Helicopters. �Veteran: --helicopters up to there. And they dropped us off but yeah, at Quang Tri at the time, there was not a place where they could land a C-130 there. Later on, there was. Now, the Marine Corps had this attitude towards the 1st cav coming up there that we had so many helicopters, you know, it was just like mosquitoes swarming around. And our helicopters also were better armed than theirs were. And the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese learned that pretty quick, that you know, you can’t just expect one or two passes from a gun ship but you can expect these ARL helicopters to come back, you know, six or seven times and fire rockets at you. So, you know, the North Vietnamese found out some different things about the first cav. Also, we could move a lot of troops a whole lot faster with the number of helicopters that we had. Now, one of the places that we worked off of was LZ Ann, which was a mountaintop landing zone. The artillery battery was on the very top. The infantry was down on a kind of a ledge partway down. And while we were on that ledge, we had a mortar round come in one night that…Oh, probably hit about from me to the copy machine over there from me. And I was laying in my hole, you know, it was at night. (01:06:27) Veteran: And I had a couple layers of sandbags. Well, I—when I heard what sounded like a mortar round coming in and the pop, I didn’t get up or do anything, I just laid there in the hole. The mortar round went off. Now, Lieutenant Carney was laying in a hole probably about the size of that table over there. And it had one row of sandbags around it and his pack was leaning up against the outside of the sandbags. That mortar round came down right on the pack. And he had shrapnel from his ankles all the way up to the back of his neck. There were two other guys that were wounded. One of them got hit in the neck but Carney and the one guy that got hit in the neck with shrapnel were medevaced. I was mostly covered with dirt and gravel, you know. No serious injuries of any type. But anyway, Lieutenant Carney was flown out. He was the �lieutenant-type forward observer. Not real popular with the infantrymen because he made a couple mistakes. One time, he’d called in white phosphorus. White phosphorus doesn’t fly as far as HE does. And he should have given, you know, an add 75 to it. And instead, he gave a drop 75. And the white phosphorus came down right on the perimeter and a guy lost his leg because of it. So, like I said, he was not real popular with the infantrymen. Sometimes they would say, you know, Lieutenant Carney is calling in interdictions around the perimeter and you’d see the infantrymen heading for their holes—about like rabbits. And so, some of the infantrymen were not real sad to see Lieutenant Carney go, you know. (01:08:26) Veteran: Well, it’s kind of bad that somebody got wounded but they were kind of glad that he was gone and that also meant that I was running the forward observer team. There was no lieutenant that was sent in to replace him for a long period of time. And anyway, the next morning Captain Robbins, who was in charge of A battery, 2nd of the 19th which was the unit on the hill, he said, “Have you got Lieutenant Carney’s binoculars?” And I said, “No, sir.” And he said, “Well, are they a combat loss?” And I said, “Yes sir, the round hit right on his pack and his binoculars were attached to the pack.” He said, “Well, we need the serial number.” And I am sort of trying to sort through the various bits of shrapnel laying around for a green painted piece of metal that’s got a serial number on it. And I said, “Well, this is 3 digits of it.” You know, and I called that in and he considered that good enough. He marked off, you know, Lieutenant Carney’s binoculars as far as being lost in battle. And I said, “You know, you’ll have to mark the compass the same way.” And he said, “Well, for some reason or another they didn’t ask for the serial number of the compass, so I’ll just, you know, go ahead and say yeah you know, that was destroyed when Lieutenant Carney was wounded.” Anyway, we ran some patrols off there and one of the units called in that they’d shot a Viet Cong elephant. And one of the guys farther up �the line says, “Well, how do you know it’s a Viet Cong elephant?” And I said, came back on the radio when I said, “They said it was dead so it’s got to be a Viet Cong elephant.” (01:10:22) Veteran: It—you didn’t say well, we had killed some dead civilians or something like that. They were either Viet Cong or Viet Cong sympathizers, you know. So, things were run that way most of the time. Occasionally, we did report, you know, civilians and stuff. I kind of remember one time we were on a patrol and we came to a place where there was a village that the Viet Cong had taken the civilians out and were using them like porters to carry supplies. And there was an old woman and a young girl. The young girl had been, apparently, was put by a fire in a blanket. The blanket caught fire and she was badly burned. And the old woman, who I am assuming was her grandmother, was staying with her while pretty much everyone else in the village there were moved out. Well, a little bit later when the company was getting ready to come into the perimeter at a different location, I said, “You know, about that girl that we passed up,” I said, “Would it be possible that we go back and pick her up and then take her into LZ English and have her flown to a hospital?” And Lieutenant Reed says, “Well, we’ve got the rest of this patrol to finish but,” he said, “if you can find some volunteers who want to go with you, you can go back and pick her up.” So, I asked and I immediately had volunteers. And we went back and picked her up. And I remember we brought her into the artillery fire base. And she had been badly burned. The medic from the artillery came over there because the medic with first platoon was still out with them at the time. And I remember making chicken noodle soup out of, you know, a chicken noddle C ration thing. And I added some water to it and made a broth, you know, with a canteen up because she was dehydrated from the burns so I could tell that. (01:12:39) Veteran: And we propped her up on a backpack and she was eventually flown out with the grandmother to a hospital down at Qui Nhơn. How she fared after that, I have no idea. But you �know, we’d—sometimes, were in situations where we would go out of our way to, you know, help civilians out. And that was one of them that I remember because I was personally involved in it. But anyway, when we were up there near Quang Tri, we worked off of LZ Ann and LZ Betty and you know, there were several other ones we worked off of. And then they had us go ahead and do some recon of the area between Quang Tri on the south side of highway 9 where we could put artillery batteries and kind of hitch hop over to help the Marines at Khe Sanh. Well, that was when the Tet Offensive broke, while we were doing that. So that mission didn’t actually take place until after Tet and I had left by that time. I had actually pulled off. But they had actually did use two of the firebases that I had reconned and said what had to be done. And you know, there would be suitable places where they could, you know put some infantrymen on there and det cord blow the trees down and you know, then bring artillery pieces in with CH-47 Chinooks and go to work. (01:14:22) Veteran: So anyway, when the—just before the Tet Offensive, we had some heavy engines. We had 5 man—what they called a Killer Team—that was out along the river. We were having Claymores set up. Supposedly, the Viet Cong were bringing rockets down to fire on Quang Tri by raft on the Dong Ha River. Now, the Dong Ha River is the one that if you see the movie Bat 21, that’s what it’s based on is the Dong Ha River. Where he got picked up, it’s just south of the de-militarized zone. And the North Vietnamese took over that area during the ’72 invasion and also they basically held most of it during the Tet ’68, except where there happened to be some Americans standing on that ground. But they had basically—did control that area. And so anyway, we had this bunch of heavy vehicle engines and I called on the radio, I said, “Are you sure there’s not any South Vietnamese unit out here with tanks because I am pretty sure what I am hearing is tanks.” And they said, “No.” And anyway, I had one of the guys climb up to a little �ridge with a starlight scope and I said, “You want to take a look and see what you see out there?” And he says, “Oh yeah, they are definitely tanks and there’s infantry with them.” I thought okay, we haven’t got any good guys out there. They have got to be the bad guys. Well, we didn’t want to get cut off from our company so we quick like picked up all of our Claymores and got away from the river and zig zagged, you know, a path. We did not encounter these guys on the way out. So, by sound I ran an artillery fire mission on them. And I apparently damaged one because we found the following day that they had had to stop to repair one of the vehicles but they had moved it to where it was better cover by the time daylight got there. (01:16:36) Veteran: I reported them as Russian PT-76 tanks. This is before the Tet Offensive. And military policy was from Westmoreland’s office because he was military assistant command in Vietnam, that information on North Vietnamese build-up in the two northern provinces was politically unacceptable at the present time. And apparently, CBS News might have had a copy of that because Westmoreland was going to sue CBS for defamation of character when they said that he had, you know, not been prepared for the Tet Offensive. And so, they knew there had been some lies that were purposely spread around because of his office so I am assuming somebody had a copy of that even though it was stamped secret and I didn’t see it until a bit later on. But nobody was informed the fact that there was a Russian built jet shot down in South Vietnam or that there were Russian built tanks in South Vietnam. Now, these tanks apparently were supposed to have been used for the Tet Offensive towards Quang Tri but their commander apparently saw the fact that the Marines had M-48 tanks with 90-millimeter recoilless guns. He was basically outgunned so they turned around and looked for a softer target. And there’s a book called Tanks in the Wire which is about a special forces camp that got hit by some PT-76 tanks roughly two days after we had seen them. And I am thinking that it could have been some of the same tanks. (01:18:27) �Interviewer: Depends on how long would it have taken the tanks to get there. Veteran: Yeah, you know, it would have been possible for them to get there in two days but that’s assuming they were able to run, you know, at a normal cruising speed at night when they didn’t have to, you know…That they’d have lights out. But anyway, the Tet Offensive broke and most of the Americans were pulled back to guard the cities like Quang Tri. Our battalion commander Donald Rattan, also known as Snapper Rattan. There was an LZ Snapper named after him when they finally pulled that thing at Quang Tri. But that was his nickname from West Point. And he decided that since we had some people that were real good at calling in artillery fire, and some good platoon leaders—we had some leading these guys that had come from recon platoon and myself—he figured, you know, we will leave you guys out there because the North Vietnamese coming south to go after the cities might be a little sloppy because they figure they basically control that area out there—it’s Indian country. Well, one night we did catch a battalion of them that were getting supplies from underground caches and they were using flashlights to sort supplies out. We were about 600 yards away, the platoon that I was with anyway. And I got 4 artillery batteries to p0und them. And the North Vietnamese lost very heavily that night. (01:20:10) Veteran: Sort of like the North Vietnamese were probably ‘Chicken Little, the sky is really falling.’ You know? Because 4 batteries of artillery—they just pounded them for about 10 or 15 minutes, starting with the time on the target wall to when the first rounds came in at the same time. And the infantrymen just, you know, get some 22 like…you know, they’re watching through binoculars as this stuff was crashing in on them. With the flash of the artillery, they could see these North Vietnamese just get torn apart by their artillery fire and they thought that was really cool and I am thinking you know, this is kind of strange: I’ve got a cheering section �for killing people. And come to find out, I eventually got a Bronze Star for that too. And my sister said, “But you’re a hero! You got a Bronze Star.” And I said, “No, that’s just for being very good at my job, which was making the other side die faster than we did.” And I told her about that particular fire mission and I said that that probably played a big part in that Bronze Star because it was for January/February ’68. Well, the Tet Offensive—we continued to do well against the North Vietnamese. Towards the end of the Tet Offensive, there was one of these— actually, a couple of these North Vietnamese units that had been so badly hit they were broken down and put into one company. And it said there was a Viet Cong platoon guarding this bunch of Viet Cong cadre and this was right after I left. They went and got involved in a battle with them. There were several of the guys that I knew pretty well from 1st of the 8th that were killed in that battle. We had a new forward observer there at the time and there was—the guy that they sent out as artillery recon sergeant was not real competent. (01:22:19) Veteran: The lieutenant-type would have been but he was overly cautious because he’d been safety officer for 1st of the 30th Artillery before that so obviously he did not want his name on an artillery incident thing where some people got killed by friendly fire because he goofed up. He was real careful about that, which made him a little slow getting the first rounds in. But there was a guy by the name Gary Nelson Frey that ran the artillery fire for A Company, 1st of the 8th during that battle that actually kept one of his platoons alive because of the artillery fire he put in. And there’s a guy by the name of Tom McAndrews who was company commander for A company, 1st of the 8th that was really praise worthy of this Gary Nelson Frey who was later on killed in the A Shau. But yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I want to steer back here to your story. Now you get pulled out? �Veteran: Yeah. Now, I mentioned about running the artillery stuff and I did that throughout the Tet Offensive. And the—there was one night where some North Vietnamese had walked through one of our ambushes and they didn’t spring the ambush. And I put some artillery fire where I thought those guys wanted—you know, it did cause some casualties. And I didn’t know the North Vietnamese had already pre-planned positions, had already dug their so it didn’t do as much damage to the North Vietnamese as it would have if they had been troops in the open. (01:24:10) Veteran: During that day, the medic—a guy by the name of Adkins—knew that I was having trouble keeping up. I had dysentery, I had blood poisoning, I had all kinds of infections. I was basically a rotting piece of meat. I’d—when I went to Vietnam, I weighed 195 pounds. At this time, I probably weighed about 130 and was, you know, not really in great shape. And Adkins and Lieutenant Reed came to me and said, “You know, you’re going to take that med-evacc there back to Quang Tri. You’re so sick,” well Adkins said, “You’re so sick that within the next day or two, you’re going to fall over and people are going to have to carry you.” And he said, “You also might make mistakes because you’re not thinking as clearly as you should.” And he said, “It’s about time you took the medevac out.” So, they flew me back to Quang Tri. And the next day, you know, Adkins was right: I couldn’t even climb up from the floor into this wooden bunk that I was supposed to sleep in. And this was about a week and a half before I was supposed to leave country anyway. So, that first week I spent basically under the care of Dr. Risaand, you know, they loaded me up with all kinds of antibiotics and cement pills to stop me up so I didn’t have diarrhea. And you know, I started putting on weight and I could actually walk by myself before Captain Risaturned me loose and said, “Okay, you go ahead and take a C-130 back to An Khê. You know they’ll—I’ll process you and you’ll be going back home.” And he says, “By the time �you get there, you’ll be under 90 days so you’ll get an early out.” And when I got back to Fort Lewis, Washington they said, “Well, you can stay here another month. We will see what we can do about curing the jungle rot and the other stuff you got wrong or we’ll just write out a prescription and you’ll get it filled back home and you know, that’ll—that should take care of you. If not, you got a VA hospital in Grand Rapids.” (01:26:36) Veteran: So, I did that. I took my early out and figured no, I don’t want to be treated here at Fort Lewis, Washington. You get assigned little duties that don’t mean anything, like go out and shine the sidewalk or—you know, whatever sort of nonsense that they might come up with. So, I took an early out from there. I flew from Fort Lewis, Washington on a Northwest Airlines conveyor twin engine prop plane because I wanted to see some of the country at at least a lower altitude than I would from a big jet that would fly me directly from SeaTac near Fort Lewis to Chicago and from there to Muskegon. So, I must have stopped about 5 or 6 times, you know, in North Dakota, South Dakota, or wherever. And Billings, Montana and…So, I made several stops on the way back. And it took me a whole day to get back on that. Interviewer: Now, did you fly in uniform? Veteran: I did because I flew out from a smaller airport near Seattle. And some of the guys didn’t because there were not there but if you flew out of Oakland, there were people throwing rotten fruits and vegetables at you already. You know, it’s ’68. So, I did fly back in a uniform and I stepped off the plane in Muskegon in uniform. Some of the guys, you know, figured that they’d get rid of their uniforms in Chicago and come back in civilian clothes. (01:28:30) Veteran: I didn’t—I actually walked off the plane with the uniform on. And of course, since that was March—or actually at the tail end of February, I had a khaki uniform on and a field jacket �over the top because it was cold here. I mean, when we flew into SeaTac, it was cold and rainy too. So… Interviewer: Okay. Now, I want to back up a little bit and talk about a few different themes that tend to come up a lot when people think about Vietnam. One of the stereotypes that has to do with drug use, for instance. Was there much of that— Veteran: Any what? Interviewer: Drug use. I mean, were there people smoking marijuana or things worse than that? Or…? Veteran: Occasionally there was someone that smoked marijuana but it was always back in the rear and the thing was that the guys figured that they couldn’t get any ice for a mixed drink or something like that so they smoked a little marijuana, got out a little happy. Nobody ever smoked in the field in my unit—either 2nd of the 19th Artillery, which I was in earlier, or 1st of the 8th. Now, there was one guy in the commo section in 2nd of the 19th that I heard smoked marijuana, didn’t actually see it. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s not been a major part of your experience. Veteran: No, it wasn’t. Now, later on during the Vietnam War, it was a bigger part. And I understand that was true even in good units like the 1st Cav and 101st Airborne. A great pointer who was a first sergeant in the 1st Cav was later 1st sergeant with 101st Airborne, I think ‘69/’70, and he talked about—you know, the fragging of NCOs and they had officers and the drugs and the drug problems but I didn’t see it during the time I was there. (01:30:40) �Interviewer: Okay. And then another one you touched on a little bit has to do with the question of race. I mean, you had the one issue there with the person accusing Lieutenant Lost of racism. Did you notice much by way of racial tension? I mean, you did when you were in Germany. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: There was a sergeant that— Veteran: Yeah. And that seemed to be mainly true of rear infantry groups. You know, when you were out in the field, you relied on this other guy with a rifle or machine gun to help you stay alive. Didn’t make any difference if he was black, white, or purple: as long as he was wearing our uniform, you know, you could depend on him. And you know, I saw white guys going out and grabbing wounded black guys and hauling them back and the other way around with white guys wounded, black guys putting their lives on the line to go out and drag them back. You know, we didn’t see that out in the field. Now, I don’t know whether I mentioned Ling? He had been—he was Vietnamese and for a while he had been my interpreter when I was in 2nd of the 19th. He was a South Vietnamese that could speak English and he was an interpreter for headquarters—actually, the S-2 for 2nd of the 19th. And he used to go out on these village sick calls with us and short-range patrols. And I said, “Ling, you only carry two magazines.” You know, they are generally clipped together where—the bottoms weren’t taped together. You know, two 20 round magazines. “You never carry web gear. How come?” And he says, “Sergeant Sheathelm, if it takes more than two magazines we ought to be running, not fighting.” (01:32:35) �Veteran: And I found that true of the South Vietnamese: they realized that they were in this war basically for their lifetime and, you know, if you have a chance of determining what this fight is going to look like from the very beginning, you know, you pick your fights so you got a good chance of winning. And we tried to do that too but the Viet—South Vietnamese or the ARVN were definitely more into that, you know. Well, if you think we can win this, you know, we will go ahead and attack or…You know, like let’s see: there is 8 of them or 8 of us and 45 of them…Let’s just slide off and find a fight with them some other day, you know. So, I did find some differences in South Vietnamese troops. Some of them were very bold and brave; some of them…so-so. But one of my cousins who worked with the Cambodian mercenaries against the Viet Cong really thought a whole bunch of them. Gillespie thought a whole bunch of the Montagnards that fought on our side during the Vietnam War as far as being very brave. There’s a book called Abandon Hell that was written about a battle in 1970 where the Americans were already looking at, you know, were pulling out of this war and they didn’t send the re-supplies and ammo that they should have to help out this bunch of Cambodians. (01:34:23) Veteran: But they, with a couple American advisors, they did manage to fight their way clear of this Firebase Kate, which was right along the Cambodian border. And that was a pretty good book about that time of the war and the fact that, you know, where a lot of Americans were beginning to look at, you know, not really too sure about being the last guy to die in this war that we are going to give up on anyway. Whereas there was more gung-ho during the time I was there, you know, in ’66, ’67, early ’68. Interviewer: Yep. �Veteran: Now, after the Tet Offensive was when most of the guys said that things started going downhill. Walter Cronkite had come out on the news and said, “This is a war that no sense being there anymore because we are going to lose in the long run.” Interviewer: Well, he didn’t actually say that. Veteran: Well yeah, some of the— Interviewer: He declared it a stalemate. That was as far as he went. If you look—but that, so— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But basically, it was still—as far as Lyndon Johnson was concerned, he had lost Walter Cronkite. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And so, yeah. Veteran: Yeah, and…But yeah, Walter Cronkite had looked at it, you know, this war is being mismanaged—it’s probably not going to come out well. And the American people saw that and of course, they saw the Tet Offensive with the Viet Cong getting into our embassy. Of course, the Viet Cong all died that got into our embassy and a large number of them died at Huế and they died at Quang Tri and probably the biggest example of North Vietnamese dying was at Khe Sanh. You know, they had the Marines surrounded and pounded the Marines and caused Marine casualties. But there was—there were more bombs dropped on the area around Khe Sanh than were dropped on any Germany city during World War 2. I mean, the North Vietnamese admitted �to losing just under 200,000 troops, you know, that were supposed to be taking over Khe Sanh. (01:36:41) Interviewer: They didn’t—that’s not. Okay, that’s a different issue. But they lost a lot. Veteran: Yeah. The North Vietnamese—you know, there was one general that admitted that that cost them close to 200,000. And you know, they were just chewed up by B-52s, you know. This was not artillery fire from the Americans but just, you know, their trenches, their battalions coming south to reinforce the North Vietnamese. You know, B-52s strike and 400-some men was reduced to 18, you know. Interviewer: Yeah. Alright, I guess now the—another good question: how did the men in your unit, as you observed them, how did they seem to view the South Vietnamese civilians? Veteran: They were actually pretty good about the South Vietnamese civilians. They recognized the fact that, you know, we were going to be there a short period of time and maybe the Viet Cong were going to take over at night so that, you know, made them understand that the South Vietnamese didn’t always get as free as they’d like to be about giving us information. Sometimes the, you know, we felt pretty good because the civilians did give us good information. Sometimes they just didn’t say much of anything. But you know, we realized they were in a tough place. And I think most of the infantrymen felt that way. Like when we pulled into a village—the village cordon—the American troops generally would share their rations with the Vietnamese civilians, particularly the kids. And you know, they would gather around and share a peanut butter jelly sandwich made with bread canned in 1943 and peanut butter before it was homogenized—looked like desert salt flats with a little peanut oil on top. (01:38:36) �Veteran: Yeah and we only—I only remember one guy that was down on the civilians. He was our first sergeant. And one time he threw a concussion hand grenade back on the kids that were picking up the supplies we had left behind. And one of the infantrymen threatened that this first sergeant might have an accident in the next fire fight. And the first sergeant said, “You heard that. He threatened me.” “Heard what, sir?” Just, you know, just playing dumb but I knew what was going on and I knew why, you know, this guy was a bully. He was doing stuff wrong. We had a—one guy that actually later on became a probation officer in the Denver area who actually got ticked off; this first sergeant punched him out one time. And he, naturally, got busted for doing so and even Captain Canetto said, “I hope you hit him hard because,” he says, “that guy was totally worthless.” And you know, he knew that this first sergeant was not one of our sterling characters. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Okay, go ahead with your next question. Interviewer: Another piece of your story I wanted to go back to a little bit. You mentioned at a certain point in your tour you had a job going around and talking to people after firefights or actions and finding—getting their different accounts of what happened. So, you were essentially interviewing people— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: --LZ Pony I think was where that was. �Veteran: Now, that was early on. I interviewed some of the people that had been involved in earlier battles to write up lessons learned for artillery on what we could do better with artillery fire to support the infantry. (01:40:41) Veteran: And of course, the la Drang battles were a part of that and then the May 21st-22nd battle which SLA Marshall wrote up in his book, Bird: The Christmastide Battle. And SLA Marshall also wrote up David Dolby’s Congressional Medal of Honor thing and he had some errors or exaggerations in there. And I knew that because I knew that the artillery fire that they got there was primarily illumination. Later on—or, the one artillery fire mission run by Charlie company’s FO early on drove the North Vietnamese out of some bunkers. But once the battle got started, the Americans and the North Vietnamese were too closely mixed up to effectively use artillery fire. And David told me he didn’t do that, in spite of SLA Marshall’s praises for his good artillery fire and ARA and so forth during that battle. He told me he didn’t do that. He was a brave soldier that put down one of the North Vietnamese machine guns that had some guys pinned down. He took his lieutenant and hid the lieutenant’s body where the North Vietnamese wouldn’t find it and helped get some wounded guys down to the streambed where…First name was Bill but anyway, one of the 3rd platoon leaders from Bill Mosey’s—not 3rd platoon but 2nd platoon made it from Bill Mosey’s company came up and helped get the wounded back from Roy Martin’s platoon that had walked right in front of the bunkers and been hit right at the start of the battle, which resulted in David Dolby’s lieutenant getting badly wounded then eventually killed during that battle . (01:42:49) Veteran: And there were a couple other guys that were hidden in the rocks and then not pulled back to the streambed the next morning when Bill Mosey took his company there because his company was up to strength. They picked up those other two bodies but there were two of them �that were actually left out in no man’s land that first night. And one of the stories that got passed off that it was, you know, Roy Martin was a chicken for not being sure that those two bodies were policed up. Well, he got information verified that those two guys were dead and, you know, the area was controlled by the enemy. It had turned dark. Roy Martin’s platoon, or company, had—they had taken some heavy casualties. And the decision was made that B company would pull up to the side of the valley where Captain Bill Mosey had his company set up. And the next morning, they brought in chainsaws and lowered them down from, you know, helicopters and the guys went ahead and cleared some trees so that medevac helicopters could pick up the wounded that had been laying in Mosey’s perimeter all night. (01:44:19) Veteran: And so…You know, that’s how it went there. Interviewer: Yeah. When you were doing these sorts of inquiries, were you talking to both officers and enlisted men? Veteran: Yes, talking to both officers and enlisted men. Also, I had access to a lot of the secret documents and so forth concerning those fights which is why I knew that there was information out on that second battle in the la Drang, the one at LZ Albany. But it was basically kept quiet for the first 14 years after the battle took place and I knew it had been released in 1979 which would have been 14 years for the secret classification to be removed from that, unless somebody had upgraded it to top secret. So, at Grand Valley I knew that there was going ton be information out there to write the report, The la Drang: Almost Forgotten, which Grand Valley still has a copy of it. And it apparently is available out there on the internet or somehow on the internet, they know it’s available because Hal Moore used it and JD Coleman used it in writing their books. So… �Interviewer: Yeah. And when you were talking to people, did you have—were they pretty forthcoming or did you have the sense that people were holding stuff back? Veteran: They were very forthcoming because they knew that this was going to help some other people out in the future and anything that was going to help other people from going through the same type of hell they did, then some of these battles was worthwhile. (01:46:16) Veteran: So yeah, they were pretty open. And the guys I talked to—I mean, Rick Rescorla would be one and he, you know, there were several people. And Rick Rescorla reminded me a little bit like that’s probably what Winston Churchill was like as a young man. Rescorla was a Welsh immigrant. He fought in the British Army prior to coming to the United States, joined the United States Army, went to OCS, got a lieutenant’s commission, and led an infantry platoon during that second battle in the la Drang, which was the one we called LZ Albany. And now, he was killed during the World Trade Center bombing. He was the head of security for Morgan Stanley. Interviewer: Oh. Veteran: And he had been down in the basement. He had seen the van that had blown up down there and said, “You know, this building is still a target.” And he said, “Next time, it could be an airliner.” He says, “We are going to have a—have fire drills.” Well, the big mucky mucks at Morgan Stanley said, “No, no, no, you’re just a crazy, paranoid Vietnam vet.” You know? And he climbed on the table and unfastened his belt and he says, “I’m going to moon everybody until you listen to me.” And they thought this guy is probably serious so they said, “Okay Rick, you calm down. Sit down—tell us what you think we ought to do.” And he told them that they would take the computer, clear everything—you know, have everybody that was there for Morgan Stanley check in and check out so they knew who was there in the building. And he said that, �you know, different floors had different places they were supposed to go to. And there would be security people that would check, you know with a clipboard, they’d take the thing off every half hour. And so, Morgan Stanley actually did practice that once where they went to other locations. The rest of the time, they’d just go to the doorways they were supposed to exit from. And you know, the security people would take charge so Morgan Stanley didn’t shut down for real long periods of time other than that one fire drill. (01:48:38) Veteran: And anyway, when the plane hit the World Trade Center, the port authorities said, “Everybody, stay put. The fire department will tell which floor to evacuate and, you know, they will do a nice, orderly evacuation.” And Rescorla says, “No. this building is coming down. Everybody head for the stairwells. And you know, go to the fire drill procedure.” And it saved close to 2800 guys—or, 2800 people from Morgan Stanley. And— Interviewer: But he stayed behind? Veteran: He stayed behind. The last that anybody saw him that escaped, he was standing in a stairwell with his bullhorn, singing rather risqué Irish drinking songs as well as some patriotic songs like God Bless America over his bullhorn and telling everybody to keep moving. And they don’t know for sure exactly where he was when the building came down but he didn’t survive that. He was later put on for—put in for the Presidential Medal of Freedom. A couple guys that actually circulated petitions. One of them was General Hal Moore and another one was the guy that played Hal Moore during the movie, We Were Soldiers, Mel Gibson. (01:50:12) Veteran: And everybody thought that maybe he might get the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Well, anyway port authority, among others, kind of tried putting a monkey wrench in everything because he had been right when port authority and the Department of Home Defense had been �wrong and that, you know, yeah next time it will probably be an airplane and you know, we got to have an evacuation plan in order. Well, Morgan Stanley was the only one that really did and he saved most of the employees of Morgan Stanley but the fact that he had been right and they had been wrong…They started a campaign against that and I understand he never did get the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Interviewer: Alright. We’ve got about 12 minutes left of this tape and I would like to have— Veteran: Okay, you go ahead and take other questions, right? Interviewer: Yeah. Basically, once you got home, what did you do? Veteran: First thing I did was I wanted to do something that was positive so I kind of thought a little bit about going back over there as a pacification officer but I immediately got back into ski patrol, which was a search and rescue type of thing. And actually, got in my 12-day minimum during 1968 in March. And so, I was credited with that year and then I had to take a review first aid class in spite of the fact I had been doing medic stuff but some of the stuff there didn’t fit the, you know, the rules on what first aiders were allowed to do. So anyway, I got upgraded on first aid and did that. I spent some volunteer time with [?] County search and rescue and [?] County search and rescue on some rescue things there. I took up mountain climbing and backpacking in the mountains because of the sense of adventure, you know. You got to have some things that kind of put your mind on edge but they have to be politically acceptable and hopefully something that is not going to get you killed. Now, that’s part of the reason that some of the Vietnam vets got these high-powered helicopters or high-powered motorcycles and died shortly after they got �back from Vietnam. They tried getting this sense of adventure out of this and died as a result. (01:52:49) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And… Interviewer: Did you wind up going to college? Veteran: I did go to college. I did some time in community college here then went to Western Michigan University where I got my Bachelor’s degree. Then got a Master’s degree in library science and AV media. That was mostly through Western Michigan and University of Michigan extension office in Grand Rapids. And then after I got the Master’s degree there, I started working on a Master’s degree in history and I took some classes from Western and some from Grand Valley State University, which resulted in that paper that I mentioned: The la Drang: Almost Forgotten. That was a paper I wrote for one of those classes. And the battalion commander—or, the instructor said, “You can’t find enough information to write a paper on that.” I knew the stuff had just been de-classified, I just had to find out where it was and I’d, you know, start it from there. Some of it I got the papers, some of it, you know, I was still waiting for it from National Archives from the time I finally wrote the paper. And then that information got passed on to Hal Moore and JD Coleman. They both wrote books dealing with the la Drang campaign. So… (01:54:19) Interviewer: Now, you are taking these to Greece. Do you have a job at this point? Or…? Veteran: Yeah, I taught for Muskegon Public Schools starting in 1972. And taught for them for 35 years. Part of the time I taught 5th and 6th grade. I was in elementary libraries for a while and �the last 20 years as head of libraries and the media center at Steele School where I did actually get a chance to create a video on a project the school was doing on environmental improvement of the creek that was behind Steele School. That was the—one of the two things that I—well actually, the only thing I did—with video that was actually part of my AV media Master’s degree. I did a slide tape dissolve program on commercial fishing in the Great Lakes which won some awards. Frank Friel turned it in at Western Michigan University for me. And it did pick up a couple awards for outstanding slide tape dissolve program for AV program. And it only got used a few times for Muskegon Public Schools and then something happened to their spindle soft page dissolve control and there was no longer the equipment that it took to run it. But…so…. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had also gotten yourself involved with veterans’ groups of different sorts. Veteran: Yeah. Let’s see, in—oh, it must have been about 1982, I started helping psychiatrists and psychologists with the rat groups. (01:56:25) Veteran: You know, I would turn Vietnam speak into something they can understand. And you know, so I did that quite a bit. I actually probably did it for somewhere around 10 years and I got to know a lot of the vets around Muskegon county. With that, I get thank yous from some of them and some will come up and ask me questions. You know, even years afterwards, I had one that was out for dinner just a week or two ago. And he was one that used to walk around the house at night with a loaded AR-15. But he doesn’t do that anymore according to his wife but he’s still more than a wee bit paranoid. And you can see it in his eyes. But he has not done anything thoroughly bizarre. He’s functioning, still feeling kind of bitter about some stuff but he’s getting by okay, which one of the things was that I had when I was helping run Grant’s �group was this sign on the wall: ‘Vietnam changed me but I don’t live there anymore.’ And that was…Yep. Vietnam War changed our perspective on outlooks, on what life was going to be afterwards. But you know, you can’t carry on like you still live there because it’s totally unacceptable. Hal Mooreat least told a story about that. He was a psychiatrist who had been in World War 2. And he said, “Yeah, you know when you are invited for a dinner?” He says, “That’s not the time to talk about…You know, in the Ardennes when you’ve been walking pretty hard and you were tired, looking for places to sit down.” He says, “That’s not—you know at the dinner party, that’s not the time to be talking about stacking up these 3 German bodies and sitting on them and opening up your rations to eat.” He says, “That’s the last time you’ll be invited to a dinner party at that house.” He said, “There are certain things that you just have to be careful of. The rest of the world doesn’t understand what we did in Vietnam.” (01:58:52) Veteran: Or anybody did in any war. And he said, “You have to kind of pick things that you say and do that are socially acceptable.” And you know, that’s what I talked to the other vets too. Interviewer: Did you have to learn that yourself? Veteran: Well actually, I had been told some of those things by Fred Rice who had been a World War 2 vet. And you know, it was one of those things that a couple times when I was starting to get really hostile and mad, I’d cool it—you can’t do that kind of stuff now. And a couple times, had first aid situations. Okay, that’s considered practicing medicine without a license. You know, you could get sued for that. Do not do that for the first aid thing. And you know, there were times I had to kind of restrain what I was doing. You know, like…You know, student has got a gun. Well yeah, but you can’t go ahead and grab him by the throat and kill him right there. You know, that’s…And I did have one billing principal that there was guy that had actually been �kicked out of the Heights and the principal and I had walked him down. He was threatening to kill some student at the school. (02:00:26) Veteran: We walked him into the office and I let go of him. And this guy pushed me from the back, right into the corner of a file cabinet. And it broke two ribs. But I mean I kind of put the pain of ribs out of my mind and both hands went around his neck and lifted him up off the floor. And the billing principal said, “Glenn, you’ve got to let go of him.” And you know, it was yeah okay. Interviewer: So, you had some conditioned responses that still worked. Veteran: Yeah. There were some things that, you know, if I saw my life or a threat to my health by somebody, you know, it was—yeah, I’d go ahead and grabbed the guy around the neck. And then there was another time a kid came in and started hitting me in the chest and I had the idea about reaching out throwing him to the floor and falling on him was there but I knew I couldn’t do that, you know. I was going to get in trouble for, you know, what if I dropped on him with both knees in the middle of his chest, it’d probably break a whole bunch of ribs and maybe puncture a lung and put him in bad shape and that was not really what I could do in spite of the fact the guy is slamming the heels of his hands into my chest saying, “Old man, I am going to make you have a heart attack.” And you know…But yeah, there were some things you had to just kind of put back. You know, no I cannot let emotions and anger take charge right now. I’ve got to handle this as a totally rational school teacher or whatever I happened to be doing at the time. (02:02:12) Interviewer: Alright. �Veteran: And… Interviewer: This tape is now about done. I think I will close out here and say you’ve got really a remarkable memory for this stuff and you reflect on it in ways I think people are really going to appreciate as they watch the story. So, thank you very much for sharing the story. Veteran: Well, thank you. And like I said, I am still trying to work a little bit with vets, including this one that mentioned about having the anger problems. And I said, “We will get together with salmon chowder at a park and have supper out there and talk about it sometime, you know, when there’s not other people around. So… Interviewer: Alright. Very good. (02:02:50) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SheathelmG2270V3 Title A name given to the resource Sheathelm, Glenn (3 of 3, Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-08 Description An account of the resource Glenn Sheathelm was born in Muskegon, Michigan, in 1946. Enlisting in the Army in 1965, he joins the Army Artillery and undergoes Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and AIT at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before being deployed to Nuremberg, Germany. He is then redeployed to Vietnam where he served with the Fire Direction Control and S2 Military Intelligence sections of the First Cavalry Division until after the Tet Offensive in January of 1968. He sees combat while on patrol, during rescue missions, during Air Assaults, and during the Second Battle of Tam Quan when he receives several minor wounds and is sent to the rear for treatment in the final days of his deployment. He then returns to the United States in February of 1968 where he attends the Western Michigan and Grand Valley State Universities for masters' degrees in library sciences, literary media, and history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheathelm, Glenn H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2355da45fc7d5369f492a272b9a5150d.jpg 5c694a2fa4436ad05612e7e4ad2f4705 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShechtmanRobert_Photo01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Shechtman, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Shechtman, Music Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/71aaeddbc80647b55e3d159178ce9c5c.jpg 4f664eb8f24ae74c735240ffe9233691 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShechtmanRobert_Photo02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Shechtman, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Shechtman, Music Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f8a91dc82385a033b3bd1e474ba484d.jpg 0ed80bf96518f4007c128c4f08cd02e5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShechtmanRobert_Photo03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Shechtman, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Shechtman, Music Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b93e8a76e140f9f5dbbaa01eecfd9a1c.jpg 636dbff40625b5bce0a028d5d5dbc25e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShechtmanRobert_Photo04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Shechtman, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Shechtman, Music Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/55d2e251fc9d132f3ac268116b52e1b1.jpg 4f05a2c37aede2cc22b7e270b66fad2f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SheddJoanMary Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Shedd, Joan Mary Description An account of the resource Joan Mary Shedd, Nursing Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d739a77b8c8c7fbfb7b3e1dd61559962.mp3 9a311ce552f71f0f7b44544a764ec47b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XXI Series The Tradition That Shaped Us Scripture Text Genesis 12:1,4, Romans 4:16 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19911013 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-10-13 Title A name given to the resource Sheer Grace: The Other Option Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on October 13, 1991 entitled "Sheer Grace: The Other Option", as part of the series "The Tradition That Shaped Us", on the occasion of Pentecost XXI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Genesis 12:1,4, Romans 4:16. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2f338b51acab93fb395564c6ef0a60e5.mp3 82ebe18f7638867cab47097987e550cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XXI Scripture Text I Chronicles 29:22 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19931024 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1993-10-24 Title A name given to the resource Sheer Joy - A Celebration of Ministry Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on October 24, 1993 entitled "Sheer Joy - A Celebration of Ministry", on the occasion of Pentecost XXI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: I Chronicles 29:22. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5f2036647e4dd4b30822215e3494d5ce.jpg ad7cf6f1a2523fd7b358e4dad539067a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_EastmanAlbum_1_1909_078 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909-08-19 Title A name given to the resource Shelby Bridge, south abutment Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of the south abutment for Shelby Bridge under construction, New York State Canal System. Subject The topic of the resource Bridges Canals Engineering Erie Canal (N.Y.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives