874 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/efaab633deb55d1f7f3096a1f0bd209d.jpg 78ffab4c35699bc59f0aade879fc137c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeidmanWilliam_Photo08 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Seidman, L. William Description An account of the resource L. William Seidman, Board of Control 1960-1974 and 1977-1983 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2b24e2124d0504552708f0855971e3a.jpg c46c020ecbdb59df901ed6479566cfc7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeidmanWilliam_Photo09 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978 Title A name given to the resource Seidman, L. William Description An account of the resource L. William Seidman, Board of Control 1960-1974 and 1977-1983 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1978s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87e2b68175108b9a218be149b7a104b0.jpg d16c2378555ff1850be5c12f41f12459 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeidmanWilliam_Photo10 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Seidman, L. William Description An account of the resource L. William Seidman, Board of Control 1960-1974 and 1977-1983 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69dd7b24c02e7d3c69abfe0238a97261.jpg 16e8b9d60a8ba970f9fcbaaf1c9c7857 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeidmanWilliam_Photo11 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Seidman, L. William Description An account of the resource L. William Seidman, Board of Control 1960-1974 and 1977-1983 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a59a57c035b51fa4d3de6d288765f0f0.jpg 5d7fdf29a3c5213f6cdc7d51f5625682 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeidmanWilliam_Photo12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Seidman, L. William Description An account of the resource L. William Seidman, Board of Control 1960-1974 and 1977-1983 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21eee94040d833679d76e75554e9ff04.mp4 7adba0e067f043afb57b257e618e315a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5229bb5a1241ff46e0afd36a314a3a0b.pdf 72d7a95f8bea8e5af44519f561ca7bb0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Officer in U. S. Navy Cathy Seifert Length of interview - 02:40:51;02 (00:06) JS: We’re talking today with Cathy Seifert of Kapolei, Hawaii, and you served as an officer in the U.S. Navy for about twenty years here, so why don’t we begin, sort of at the beginning. Where were you born and when? CS: I was born in Os…well, you know, that’s not true. My mother would despair of this but I can never remember whether I was born in St. Mary’s or Blodgett. In Grand Rapids. JS: Grand Rapids, Michigan, then. CS: Grand Rapids. December, 1952. JS: Okay. And what did your family do? CS: My father was in the Army, actually. My mom was a typical ‘50s stay at home wife, at least for about the first seven or eight years of my life. JS: Now did your family move around a lot because your father was in the Army? CS: When I was small. That I can remember, when I was small, we lived in Indiana. Fort Benjamin Harris for a while. One of my brothers was born there. And we lived in Germany. The other brother, the one that’s next to me in age, was born in Germany. But after the Indiana tour, my father moved us to live with my grandparents. My mother’s parents in Alaska, over in Caledonia township. JS: So Alaska Michigan, as opposed to Alaska, Alaska? (01:25) CS: Yes. And then he went on to detached duty at his next duty station and my parents divorced after that. So. We stayed where Mom was from, basically. Moved within a twenty mile radius for quite a while. JS: All right. Now where did you go to high school? CS: I went to high school in Wayland. We moved from my grandparents locality in Caledonia Township to Allegan county when I was in between fourth and fifth grade. JS: Okay. And then, once you graduated from high school, what did you do next? �(01:59) CS: I went to Hope College. For four years, of course. And after I left college, I was kind of at a loose end. I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to do. I’d taken a couple of examinations, Civil Service examination, Foreign Service examinations. Some of them don’t even exist anymore, in that form. And I was up, called up for interviews, a couple of times. The Social Security Administration skimmed the top one percent off the top of the [PACE] list back then. And, while I was waiting, I worked in a family owned business, over in Barry county, which most people around here probably know. Middlevilla. Worked for the family for a couple of years and lived with my grandparents. In Alaska, Michigan. And I got tired, of just waiting, for something to happen. And the next time I was called for an interview, from the PACE examination, for civil service, it was for the Army. At TARCOM, in Detroit. Warren, technically. And I was hired off that interview. That was in late 1976. And I went there, and I came home on weekends. To my grandparents. And still worked at the same place for extra money. Because basic civil service entry level didn’t really pay very much. (03:26) JS: So what kind of work were you doing at that point? CS: I was a supply cataloger. And the work was okay. It wasn’t particularly interesting, after about the first six months. (laughs) There was no mental challenge left. And TARCOM is an unusual installation in military terms, because at the time, in an installation of about 5000 people, because TARCOM was linked to RADCOM, which was the research division side. There were only about 80 military personnel. Everyone else was civil search. And it represented the amalgamations of functions across several different areas in the country. For instance, the supply cataloging function. Which was quite small. Represented the amalgamation of a group in Ohio. And a group in Detroit. And a group from somewhere else. There were people…there were older guys who commuted to Ohio from there. JS: So was the military basically contracting at this point? Sort of post-Vietnam, and… CS: Yes. And the interesting part of it was, it had been so long that they’d hired civil servants, at this particular installation, everybody had been there for a long time. That the contracts were Vietnam-era contracts. So they were written in such a way that if you were drafted it wasn’t breach of contract. But it didn’t say drafted. It said if you went into, if you were in military service, it did not constitute a breach of contract. And they had to hold your job open for you, for five years. Because of that. Well, I wasn’t particularly happy in Detroit. You know. I didn’t grow up in a major urban area. I grew up outside town. And Detroit was a fairly miserable place, unless you have a lot of money and can live in a good area. And a basic entry level civil servant can’t do that. So I started poking around and I found out this little loophole in the contract and I went down and I talked to a Navy recruiter. Never even considered the Army, because I had bad associations with my father’s military service. But I’d always felt safe in a military environment. Living on post, and that kind of thing. I was just old enough that I could remember that. (05:41) JS: Right. �CS: Last time. So I talked to the Navy recruiter. I considered the Air Force. And I was looking at recruiting materials. And at the time, it was in 1977, and my grandfather had died in January, as the result of an accident. Had the accident and went in the hospital. And then had the heart attack while he was in the hospital. And so my grandmother was by herself. She was not happy with the fact that I was considering military service. She did not say “oh, you shouldn’t do that.” She didn’t lecture. The only thing she said to me was “you know you’re not going to be entirely happy if you do this, because if you start moving around, you’re never going to be able to have anything that’s nice.” (laughs) Everything gets battered in moving. So I put it off for a while because I knew she didn’t like it. And then I looked at it again. Went and talked to a recruiter. Basically went through all of the interview process that was done at the recruiting station, for officer personnel. And, I was accepted…I found out that I was accepted about three weeks after my grandmother died. So I never had to tell her. (pause) I was sworn in in February of 1978 But I didn’t have a class date, for Officer school, which was in Newport, Rhode Island. For most people… (07:10) CS: In those days, officer school was split between Rode Island and Pensacola, Florida. The folks who went through Pensacola, were aviation candidates. And selected officer specialty groupings that did a lot of work directly with the aviation community. So, like the intelligence community. Those people went through aviation officer school. Which is what you saw in “Officer and Gentleman,” with the drill instructors that yelled at you. And the dunker tank and all of that. That’s aviation officer candidate school. Officer candidate school in Newport did not have Marine Corp drill instructors. I went in March. I reported on St. Patrick’s Day in March. And they deliberately do not tell you what is going to happen to you. Because they don’t want you to know that there’s actually a set time frame during which they’re going to treat you…I don’t want to say badly, but in a way that people would interpret as badly. (08:17) JS: Now when you’re going out there, are you starting, is there a whole group of you starting at the same time? CS: Yes. JS: All right. CS: Um. And at that time, there were several different ways to do that. In Newport, Rhode island, you had the entire range of military personnel. In those days, there were still four destroyers. In Newport. So you actually still had some active forces there. You also had the Naval War College, so you had very senior officer personnel who were going through classes there. You had Surface Office Warfare School, which was a post-commissioning school that in those days only young men went to, before they were allowed to go to sea. It basically taught them more than you learned in Officer candidate school about rules of the road. And what you were allowed to do. And more of the technical things you needed to know in order to be a ship driver. And then you also had Officer candidate. You also had “navsters,” which were a precommissioning level at the high school level. In the summer, they would be in there. For �several weeks. And you had what we would refer to as “oysters,” Officer Instruction School. Officer Instruction School was for people who already had medical qualifications. Who were direct commissions. They did not have to go through officer candidate school. But they did need instruction on how to wear their uniform and what the hair regulations were, and some sort of minor physical training. (laughs) Officer School, the normal officer candidate school, could run anywhere from 200 people to a thousand, at any one time. (10:05) JS: How many started with you? CS: We were quite small. And the reason was rather unique. The 200th candidate school class went through just before us, so they were still there. When we got there. And there was a class ahead of them that was being commissioned. The 200’s were commissioned in June, and they deliberately left a gap. So that there would be a four week period where there would only be one class on board. Not something they usually did. That was because, traditionally up until that point, the were two classes…two companies…the classes were divided into companies… JS: Right. CS: Quote, military companies. That were associated with each other all the time. Two of the companies were all female. The rest of the companies were all male. During the four week period when we were the only class on board, they integrated the companies. They scrambled all the people. And put…integrated them in teaching sections. They were divided in half so that these…four of the companies usually had the same classes together and the other four companies had classes together. So they took a women’s company in each group and they inserted men into it and took women out of it and out them in other companies, and taught us what the men had been taught up until that point. Which was how to carry weapons properly. And do the manual of arms. For parades and that kind of thing. (11:35) JS: Now what proportion of your class was female? CS: Approximately, one quarter. JS: Okay. Now, is it your understanding that prior to this integration that there were a lot of things that they taught the men that they did not teach the women, or… how did that work? CS: It may have been that women were doing things that women had never been expected to do. In a full duty status. That involved, mainly, handling of weapons. Okay. The real split was after you were commissioned. Because you did not go to warfare qualification schools. You only went to a more limited range of duty assignments. They were planning to change that. That was one of the reasons that they made the shift at that point. They were already planning to integrate the military academies at that point, but they had not done so. JS: Right. �CS: The class before us, the women had had to sign paperwork that indicated that they knew that it was possible in the future they could be assigned to sea duty. We did not. They limited the numbers for a while. Because they knew it would be difficult. They would have to do it in very small numbers. Initially. So they said, okay, it’s not going to be necessary for this class or the next class. We’ve already got enough women in the previous class that we’ll have enough people to experiment with, basically. (12:59) JS: Now how long was the Officer candidate school session? CS: When I went through, it was sixteen weeks. It changes over time. It’s ranged, to my knowledge, while I was in, any place between twelve and sixteen weeks. JS: Do you have a sense of how long they had been admitting women into Officer Training School by the time you got there? CS: Not a really good one. I had a supervisor later who had been in the first group of women that they had sent through to the more remote duty stations. And they did it the same way they did ship integration later. They sent pairs. And they sent the officers first. Before they started amalgamating enlisted women. Mostly because it’s easier to change officer quarter accommodations than it is to change enlisted accommodations. So that you have isolated bathrooms and that kind of thing. JS: Right. You’re not packing large numbers of officers together in a barracks or something like that. (13:59) CS: Right. Right. You might have two. You might have four, that have to share. Depending on where you are. And you can…whether or not, it’s an accurate summation, it was, it was believe there was less of a problem to have them using the same bathroom if they were officers. JS: Okay. CS: A bit silly. But I know it was pre-1972. I’m not sure how long before that it was. JS: Now, in general, when you’re in officer candidate school, how well did they seem to deal with having women candidates? Was it something they were used to? Did things flow pretty naturally? CS: They were fairly used to it. Some of the instructors were female. The company officers, the officer that was in charge, taking care of problems or informational needs, in each of the companies, for the female companies, the company officers were also female. As a matter of fact, they were combined forces because we had two British officers, who were company officers. One male and one female. And so we had comparative information on how other countries handled their service integration. �(15:15) JS: And what do you think morale was like, with the students? Were they looking forward to this? Were they excited about it, or… CS: Mostly. They found it interesting. You know, it was an all-volunteer force. It was enough post-Vietnam that nobody was worried about that kind of thing. Um, some people were more nervous than others. Some people were just miserable at school and wanted it to be over. I remember, during the timeframe when I went through, um, you basically had your classes. And your PT, and everything during the week. And you also stood duty. They taught you that as part of your schooling. So they had watches that you had to stand, so that you learned how you were supposed to handle those and what the penalties were if you didn’t do it properly. We… at that time, we were allowed Saturday and Sunday off. And you had permission to leave the base. And you did not have to wear a uniform, if you were an officer candidate. Unlike enlisted personnel, who when they finally received permission to leave the base while their still in basic schooling, still had to wear their uniforms. And, allowed without supervision. And that was okay. That gave you a break. You could go to MacDonald’s or something like that. And just not worry. If you wanted to, you could get a room in a local hotel and trash the place out instead of keeping it neat. The way you did. You were subject to inspection at any time. There were restrictions on it. But you were told what those were. One of the interesting things that I found about it, and when you first reported, they made sure that on every desk, and in every room, there was a notebook that had a piece of paper in it already, that said “priorities.” And, so that you understood that if you were ill, a medical priority came before anything you had to do as part of Officer Candidate School. They didn’t want people pretending to be tough. And making a situation worse. Sometimes it was a little hard to remember. (17:33) CS: So you had regular classes. Taught you things like celestial navigation that no one ever uses unless they go to sea. And none of the instruments work. Um, basic engineering concepts. Just things that had to do with Navy administration, how the paperwork works. How ranks and so forth are structured. You had regular PT. You had things that changed intermittently, you know… JS: PT is physical training? CS: (shakes head yes). Um hmm. Because you had to be able to pass what in those days were referred to as “JFKs.” Because he was the one that instituted the standard of fitness. If you remember. Everyone should be able to do certain things. So they had a similar set of things for the military and you had to be able to pass your “JFKs.” So it was a mile and… actually that was one of the differences between men and women at that timeframe. Is the number of things you had to do was different. For instance, you had x amount of time to run a particular distance. For men, it was a mile and a half. For women, it was 1.35, in the same amount of time. (18:42) JS: Okay. �CS: So I was always very proud of myself, I was never terribly physically fit, but I managed to do the men’s distance and a little more, in the time we were allotted. We also had mandatory swim training. This was the Navy. JS: Right. CS: So, that’s where I learned to swim. (laughs) And as part of your swim training, you also had particular sessions where you had, they had you jump off from a high level, in uniform. And basically, to be able to take your clothes off to inflate them so they were floatable, in case you didn’t have something like that. And you also had drown-proofing, which was how not to expend energy in the water. So it was to teach you to float upright, without treading water, any more than absolutely necessary. So that you didn’t expend energy doing that. It was interesting. (19:44) JS: So how well did you hold up under all of this kind of training and stuff? CS: I had no problems with classes. I was fairly miserable about some of the specific aspects. I remember actually giving up and calling my mother at one point, just to tell her I was miserable. (laughs) It’ll be over soon. It can’t be over soon enough. I had a compatible person that I shared the room with, fortunately. She and I were the odd balls in the bunch. At that time frame, commissioning programs tended to attract, at least for the women, people from very stable, traditional backgrounds. So two parent families, who’d never had any hardship. Um, that did not apply to me, coming from a divorced family. And after they divorced, my mother worked in a factory. It also didn’t apply to my roommate. She had been married, before she came into the program. And divorced. And she smoked, oh, absolutely unacceptable. Which did not bother me because my mother smoked. So…we were okay when we were together. (20:59) JS: Now were you allowed to smoke in the room? CS: Yes. You were. Back in those days. The buildings didn’t go non-smoking for a very long time. JS: Were the people in your class from all over the country? Did they tend to come from certain areas, or… CS: No. They were from all over the country. JS: And were a lot of them from the Navy families? CS: No, actually. Amazingly enough. Most of the ones from Navy families didn’t happen to go through in my group. Now most of the ones from Navy families, or other military families, did go through officer training candidate school, cause you couldn’t get into the academy. JS: Right. �(21:39) CS: They had all looked at that. Now one of, not my classmates, but the class before me, and she wound up being with me in my first duty station, was from a Navy family, a military family. Her father was a Marine corp colonel, her mother was an Army corp nurse, and her brother went to the Navy academy and was a Navy colonel. So she’s still in. She’s a captain. She’s had command twice. JS: All right. Now, um, what did you do then after you completed officer training school? CS: There’s a selection process that’s run by detailing personnel, assignments personnel, if you’re in the Army. That figure out what to do with groups of people, by their rank. They know what the requirements are, at the very basic level. They might take a minor look at your background, but the assumption is that you know whatever it is that you learned in officer candidate school. A lot of the men, out of my officer candidate school, were assigned to do surface warfare training, because they were going into the surface fleet. There were specialists that went through, I think there was one guy in my class, who had a different…officer designator tells you what subject community you’re in, and there are different communities. So there are warfare communities. There are surface warfare communities. The aviation warfare community. There are special subsets of that. So the special forces guys fall into that group. And then there’s restricted line, as opposed to unrestricted line. (23:14) CS: Restricted line people did things like civil affairs and oceanography and intelligence. A number of things. And then there were staff officers, who were supply corp officers. And people who went into the medical community. Specialists like that. Medical community was handled separately, because they weren’t commissioned as ensigns. They were commissioned at a higher pay grade. But everyone else went through this process where their detailing community, which was in Washington at the time. It’s in Tennessee now, would look at them and say, okay, I have requirements for, in these areas, with these kinds of backgrounds. And they would…you were allowed to fill out a sheet that said where you would be interested in going or what you would be interested in doing, and they would try to take that into account, but then the Navy came first. You got assigned wherever. So in my case, the assignments list was posted and I was going to be going to Naval Facility, Guam. (24:19) CS: Now I’m sitting there and scratching my head, and one of my classmates was a SEAL, prior enlisted who was being commissioned, and he knew what it involved. And he said well, they won’t be able to tell you anything about it because what they do is classified. But you’ll enjoy it. And he was right. I enjoyed the work very much. So much so that I basically stayed in that subset of the community for about twelve years before I did anything else. JS: Okay, now how did they get you up to Guam? CS: Oh, they issue you a plane ticket? JS: Did you fly a commercial plane or fly military aircraft? �CS: That particular case, it was a charter flight. I mean, they flew me from Baltimore. Well, from Newport to Baltimore to the west coast. And then picked up a charter flight that went out to Guam. From there. (25:12) JS: And how did Guam strike you when you got there? What did it look like to you? CS: (smiles) It was fascinating. You know, being from Michigan, here you are on a tropical island for the first time. It was actually kind of a good way to do a non-mainland first duty station. Because you didn’t have to adjust language. You didn’t have to adjust money. But it was still a long long ways from home. It was a totally different climate. I discovered that I adored tropical islands. (laughs) The only thing that truly truly annoyed me about it is that it had nothing but the most wretched bookstore you’ve ever seen in your life. (Laughter) And they didn’t even do much in the way of ordering for you. But back in those days, the Navy exchange system was still associated with a bookstore chain called Stars and Stripes, that didn’t belong to the exchange but that was what they did. They brought books into overseas installations. So, you had some choice there, even though you still couldn’t order. It was a very small installation that I was at. There were only 100 people where I was at. I did enjoy the work. I didn’t particularly respect my boss. Not my immediate boss, but the commanding officer. He was an early select for command. An aviator. Who really wasn’t interested in what we did for a living. He had flown in an electronic collections bird, and that was what he was really interested in. even the junior enlisted folks noticed. I remember that one once said something to their section officer, who was the Navy family officer I mentioned earlier. And she told me about it afterward. She said, Seaman so-and-so looked at me and said, why doesn’t the skipper care about anything we do? (27:12) CS: Now the XO did. He was from a more diverse background in terms of his assignments. And he was actually senior to the CO, and he did care about what was going on. And he didn’t really care about the format you had for giving it to him. He was more interested in whether you knew what was going on and could just tell him. JS: Can you describe what it was that you were doing? CS: To a much greater extent than I used to be able to. They just, in the early ‘90s, they decided to declassify the basic mission statement. So what we did was, when I first went in it was referred to by the acronym SoSys, the Sound Surveillance System. And became the IUSS, the Integrated under Surveillance System, when they added different sensors to it. But basically what it amounted to was passive anti-submarine warfare. So we had sensors in the water that were permanently there. And we listened. Back in those days, “listening” was an accurate verb more so than it became later. Because in the first generation systems, you could still plug a set of sound powered headphones into the machinery and actually listen to the microphones that were in the ocean. But they lost that capability later as the machinery that supported it and displayed the signal in a visual format, so that you could look at it and make a determination of whether you were seeing submarines or something else. It became more computerized. It �passed through more paths. In order to be processed. And you lost the ability to listen to the microphones. (29:02) JS: Now, did you detect much of anything? Could you… CS: Oh, yes. Yes. JS: Could you tell a submarine from a whale and things like that? CS: They taught you how to do that. After I left Officer Candidate School, because of where I was going, I was sent first to a school in Norfolk, which was why I was flying out of Baltimore, to go there. And it was basically the same information they taught to the enlisted personnel, in the school that they went to. Anti-submarine warfare was big business, from…shortly before that point. About five, six years before that point, well, a little longer than that. It existed, they started putting in the sound surveillance system in the early ‘50s. that’s when they started snatching land from people that didn’t want to give it up. And putting the stations there. Running the cables out to sea, with the microphones, with the cable layers. And listening. But it became…there was a lot more emphasis on it from about the mid ‘70s until the early ‘90s. and once the Soviet threat went away, as far as blue water capability, they de-emphasized it extremely rapidly. It was part of the amalgamation of forces as part of the drawdown. (30:23) CS: But we saw a fair amount of activity. Not a lot where we were. The way we pointed wasn’t toward major Soviet activity, although we picked it up in certain areas. What was important was that there were stations in different locations and because you were a passive system rather than an active system, the way that you located things was crosshairs. Between, you know. And it was still a probability area. It was still some place in this area between this area, there is a probability that there is a submarine of this kind because it’s making this kind of noise. (31:06) JS: Now, do you have a sense of what the larger purpose of all of this was? What good did the data actually do us? CS: Actually, we were fairly well informed for junior people, that way. Because at a very junior level, not my first duty station but my second, because I was on Guam for seventeen months and from there I went to Norfolk to the processing center. The next level up. Where they got the information from all their stations in their basin, looked at the data and made a determination as to where they thought submarines were. So you got to watch the reporting process and who it was reported to, and they made sure that it was pounded into your head, with a mallet if necessary, that if you make a decision that says the center of the probability area for what you believe to be a submarine is outside this particular area, if it’s any closer to the U.S. mainland, you are going to push a button to release a message that’s going to cost the United States government a million dollars. Be sure that you know what you’re doing. JS: Okay. �(01:32:18) CS: Because if we pushed that button and said the submarine was this much closer, they would move the entire East Coast strategic bombing force back, away from the East coast farther. So, yeah, their information got used. JS: Did that kind of thing happen? CS: Oh, absolutely. It was always a big deal. You had to call and tell the chain of command, when you were moving, when I say outside a certain area, it was normal for Soviet submarines to patrol within a predictable big ocean area. If they came closer than that, then they were violating their own normal patterns, then, potentially, and there could be a reason to be concerned. JS: How regular a thing was that? CS: Not regular. It might happen once every couple of years. I can remember it happening twice, while I was in Norfolk. JS: And how long did they have you in Norfolk, that first time? (01:33:23) CS: That was twenty seven months. It was an odd length of tour, because it those days…it went up and down. Sometimes it was, you were automatically looked at for accession from the Naval Reserve, which is what you were commissioned in, to the regular Navy, and sometimes you had to apply. At a certain point in your career. And it was between when you were an 02 and an 03, that you did that. Well, because you didn’t have a commitment beyond your original four year commitment, usually, it made your tours a bit odd in length. The second time around. Normal tours aren’t like that, unless you’re extended for some Navy reason. You get assigned somewhere for a year, or twenty four months or thirty six months, especially if you’re married. Or it’s an especially good duty station. Like Pearl. JS: What sort of duty station is Norfolk? It’s a lot of Navy there. CS: The Navy defines things as, in two different parameters. In two different axes. One is inconus/outconus. And the other is preferred/non-preferred. Okay. And within preferred/nonpreferred, there’s preferred shore/non-preferred shore, and preferred sea/non preferred sea. At different times. This changes from time to time, the way they define it. And things drop in and out of it, with categories, so. I’m not in touch with what’s going on with it right now. I haven’t been for a while. But Norfolk was considered preferred shore. Because it was a fairly developed area. It was, there were a lot of different things that you could select from, and stay in the area, if that met the needs of the Navy. Unlike the Air Force, which allowed you to homestead. The Navy discouraged that. (01:35:24) CS: The Air Force allowed it. You simply had to accept the fact that if you were going to homestead at a place where there wasn’t a slot at the next promotion level, for you to be �promoted into, you weren’t going to be promoted, as long as you stayed there. The Navy was transitioning in the early ‘80s out of the mindset that you see in a lot of the old movies, where you had the old salt who was still very junior in terms of responsibility, had been in the Navy for a long time and was the “sea daddy” for the young guys coming in, to make sure they knew what was going on and the way things worked. They were trying to discourage that. They wanted, they wanted progression and skills. And “up or out” for them. So there was a lot of legislation, which also affected the officer community in the early ‘80s. There was an act called DOPMA (The Defense Officer Personnel Management Act of 1980) and it changed the rules. The rules up until that point had been, if you came into the service, in a commissioned status, and you went regular, once you went regular, you didn’t have any time limit on your contract, your first set of four years commitment. Then you had to ask to leave. You were, you were considered at certain points for promotion. But if you made it to 04, you were safe. (01:37:06) JS: Now, what do 03, 04 refer to specifically? CS: The pay grades. It’s easier when you’re talking multi-service type things to use pay grades when you’re talking rather than use ranks because of course the Air Force and Marine Corps and the Army all use a set of ranks that are similar to each other, in the way that they’re verbalized and the Navy’s is different. JS: Yeah. To be a Captain in the Navy is quite different from being a Captain in the Army or the Marines. CS: Oh, absolutely. So, an 01 in the Navy is an ensign. 01 in the other services is a 2nd Lietenant. Of course, if you want to get really screwed up, you started throwing the British Navy in there. (laughs) But, 04, which is a Major in the other services, is a Lt. Commander. If you made it as far as that, then they had to let you stay as far as 20. Once you were, accepted a promotion under the DOPMA Act, if you didn’t hit a gate and you were selected after two opportunities for selection, they could force you out. (01:38:19) JS: Hit a gate? What does that mean? CS: Ah, meet a certain…make it to the time frame where you were going to be considered for promotion to the next rank. I tend to use that term, even though it really isn’t used that much in the U.S. military. It’s a British term. But it amounts to the same thing. You’re considered for promotion at particular lengths of service. Basically, it stays the same but it varies a little bit on a curve, depending on the size of the grouping available at any given time for a consideration. As an example. In 1978 when I was commissioned, the maximum age for commissioning, you had to be before commissioning, before your twenty-sixth birthday. That was the last year, by the way. I was 26 that year. Not until winter. But in ’79, ’80, and I think ’81, they raised the maximum commissioning age to 30, or … I think it was thirty, before, for some of the limited type duty assignments. And one of my friends, who is my age, came in a year later, because they had changed that. Well, that has an effect on how many people you have available in what’s called a ‘year group,” all of the people that were commissioned that fiscal year. So year group �’79 was much larger than year group ’78. So they didn’t consider all of them at the same time, when you start getting into the higher ranks, it hasn’t thinned out as much, so you have more people for consideration. So they may choose to split that group and consider part of them in this year (gestures with hands) and part of them in this year (gestures with hands). For promotion, to the next pay grade. (01:40:38) CS: In my case, it’s almost automatic to make 02, Lt. Junior Grade. It’s two years from your commissioning date. JS: Right. CS: And, when I went through, 3% of the people didn’t make it. Whether it was for some specific reason, medical, performance, very bad performance, not to make 02. Guys in those days would actually react, “my god, I knew a three percent-er.” (laughs) Cause nobody knew somebody that didn’t make it. And, it was almost that high, for promotion to 03. Then they started cutting, because at 03, then people could get out. They didn’t normally, they didn’t have to go over and become regular Navy. So you’d lose a group of people that way, who didn’t go beyond their original commitment. And, but that wasn’t enough people for the number of people, which they’d make a determination based on the number of slots the Navy had at that grade. And in those communities they needed to promote. How many aviators do I need to promote, how many surface warfare guys do I need to promote to 04. And so they had boards, in those days, in Washington, and in Tennessee, now. Who look at your performance. And they rank everybody. Who was eligible. And they’d put everybody in three piles. I never sat on a one but I know people who have and they do it the same way all of the time. These obviously make it. These obviously don’t make it. Okay, let’s talk about these guys, which is the huge amount in the middle. (01:42:00) JS: Now, if you don’t make it, can you still stay in at your current rank? I mean, can you still stay on indefinitely or do they try to push you out? CS: Not indefinitely. That was the change that was made under DOPMA. You could stay, before DOPMA. You could stay after the first look, even after DOPMA. Cause you got two primary looks. When you were actually considered to be in the zone. And they actually looked at you sometimes below the zone, the year before that, and above the zone, the year after that, pre-DOPMA, but once you hit the second look after DOPMA went into effect, they could force you out within six months. (01:42:41) JS: And did you know people who had that happen to them? CS: It happened to me. I was in the general unrestricted aligned community. A lot of the women who were commissioned, most of them as a matter of fact, who weren’t in specialty groups, couldn’t go into warfare community units at that point. You couldn’t become a surface warfare officer or an aviation officer or a submarine officer. But you were still an unrestricted �line officer, meaning you were in the line of secession to command. If there were catastrophes going on. So they would send you to support positions that were defined as needing any unrestricted line officer, because some of the jobs were defined that way. And that’s how you got into integrated undersea warfare, and training commands, and administrative duties, of various kinds. And communications. Because communications officers were not a specialty at that point. And eventually, as we progress and there are more people, more women are being allowed into the academies. They reached a point where they said, okay, we now have a viable pipe that goes into the warfare communities. So do we actually need unrestricted, general unrestricted line officers anymore? And the answer was, well, maybe not. Let’s look. What functions do they perform that are vital to what we are doing. And that’s the way they came out in four groupings. (01:44:20) CS: There was administration, communications, and specialty services, like anti-submarine warfare, and we, on the technical side, anti-submarine warfare and communications, were much smaller than this big group of people who did administrative things. JS: Right. CS: And they said, okay, these are viable, but we need to figure out whether we’re going to change the community to be something else. What size does it need to be. How many people do we need in it, and at what levels. And that’s going to take us a couple of years, cause we have to do it as a study. Cause they talked to the Chief of Communications and Admiral [Kelso] said, okay. This was in the early ‘90s, when the drawdown was happening. (01:45:01) JS: Right. CS: After the (Berlin) Wall fell down. And the Navy, the…all the services were cutting and everybody did it differently. The Air Force just went “Whack,” and got rid of a whole bunch of pilots, all at once. They didn’t let people who were going through [ROTCI], which is one of their training programs, they just didn’t let them go into pilot programs, unless they were superb at what they did. The Marine Corp did it, it all fell at different points, depending on what part of the service you implemented. The Navy did it in very measured fashion, with cuts over five years. But the community I was in had an exemption, because they were trying to figure out what size it was going to be. And what they were going to call it. Eventually, they decided to call it Fleet Support, and it, instead of being a designator for a number for a unit…Surface warfare officers were an 1110. General and restricted line officers were 1100. They were going to transition us to a restricted line community, 1700. And they did that so that the last three or four years I was in, I was a 1700, but they switched it back after I retired, because it didn’t work well, and are doing it differently now. But, at the point that the five years ran out, it was the last year that the Navy was going to make any cuts. And they looked at it and they said, okay…I was already an 05 by then, so retirement eligible, the whole works, they said we’re going to need to cut, I think it was thirty three 05s, and half a dozen 04s, this year, that’s our share for the Navy. So that’s the way things stood, without retirement papers being in. So a whole bunch of �retirement papers went in. And I was in the zone that year. For selection to 06. And I was also in the zone for cutting. JS: Right. (01:47:10) CS: So if I had made 06, on the first look, I would have still been in for another, whatever I decided to stay, three, four years. But I didn’t. And the boards met at the same time, that year. The 06 board and the selective early retirement board. JS: So you got downsized. CS: I got downsized. JS: Okay. Well, let’s back up a bit, off of the bureaucratic angle quite so much. You were based, you go to Guam, you go to Norfolk. Where do you go after that? CS: Japan. JS: All right. And where do they send you in Japan? CS: I was, I worked out of the Naval base in Yokosuka. And I worked with a special operations detachment that was part of the staff. It was really very interesting in a physical environment sense because it was before a lot fo the new structures were built. You got to watch the way the relationship worked between the Japanese forces and the U.S. forces, and the two governments, about which had permission to do. Because the base officially belongs to Japan and they own all the buildings and so they have to agree with what you do with the buildings. I worked with the rest of the operations department…most of the headquarters staff worked in a building, maybe a quarter of a mile inside the front gate. Including the Admiral. But the Operations department worked across the parking lot. In a cave. With the construction on the inside. And it was one of the caves that the Japanese used to protect forces from bombing during World War II. There were lower level of the cave. I think there actually used to be a hospital facility there. That were flooded. And the Command Master Chief, the most senior enlisted person on the staff, had permission to take small groups down, a couple of times a year. If you wanted, he’d take you below on a little tour. So you could see the scorpions in the water. (laughs) Or whatever. (01:49:11) CS: So, I worked for a commander who was a surface warfare qualified gentleman, who had been in Vietnam who had been [Rivereen] forces. Mostly, there were four officers who worked for him. Two women, two men. We traded duties with each other because we had to go TDY on a regular basis. Temporary Duty in another location. So one of us would be there, of each group, and the other one would be away, doing other things. JS: And were you doing similar kinds of work as before? Listening? CS: Yes. �JS: And what was the environment like just to live in, in Japan, at that point? (01:49:53) CS: Fascinating. It really was. I had the best of both worlds because if you were in Yokosuka, you had quarters. Bachelors quarters. And you kept those, while you were gone. So your stuff was there. And while you were away, you actually lived on the Japanese economy. So I lived in what would have been a residence big enough for three or four people, a family, a small family in Japan. But it (looking around), it would fit in this room. The entire thing. So, so I had to live with what was typical Japanese country plumbing at the time. I had a wonderful bath. I had an ofuros, which was kind of cross between a bathtub and a hot tub, the way we understand. It didn’t work the same way. You would fill it up with water and then it had a gas supplied heat to the piping underneath, so it was incredibly hot. And you left that on the whole time so it stayed hot. So it was a soaking tub. And you had a shower head in the wall besides that. Because you cleaned off before you got in the tub. I learned how to do public bathing in Japan because, you can. And it’s isolated by sex, so it’s not expected to be a problem. However the toilet facilities were interesting. Basically, an indoor outhouse. So it was a little addition on the exterior of the building and you accessed it from inside. But it was separate enough that it wasn’t an issue. It was a standard fixture, but it didn’t have plumbing attached. JS: Okay. (01:51:54) CS: It worked just like an outhouse and someone would come in once a year, the landlord had someone come in and pump the thing out. (laughs) So, it was interesting. I had to learn enough Japanese so that I could buy groceries locally. It was very frustrating. You couldn’t buy anything to read. Everything of course was in kanji. Usually traveled by the national line trains, when you could. Except for places where you knew where you were going. Because there are the publicly owned national lines. And then there are lines that are privately owned. They’re in competition. Well, the public lines, because they are publicly owned, nationally owned, have to have the characters that identify the station in both Japanese characters and in English language characters, in romaji. So you could read the station name. JS: Right. (01:52:53) CS: so where the private lines share the station, it’s not an issue. But there were a few stations that were only on that private line, and if you didn’t know where you were, you wouldn’t know where you were or how to get off. The base trained you in how to get around. It was part of intercultural training. It was interesting. They would, they had you for three days when you first reported and they would expose you to various things that you could expect and tell you what not to do. You know, the standard gesture you make with babies. You know, I’ve got your nose (illustrates this). Don’t ever do that in Japan. JS: Okay. �CS: Never never never do that in Japan. It’s obscene. Some mother will lose her cool and call for assistance rather than whack you over the head, like an American mother would with her purse, for doing that to her child. They taught you the difference in physical characteristics. Body language is different in Japan. (Illustrates by pointing back and forth) This is me and you, talking. In the U.S. if you wanted someone to come to you, you would do this. In Japan, that’s only for animals and small children. JS: Okay. (01:54:07) CS: This is for grownups. This is not bye-bye. This is come. (can not see hand motions on video.) JS: In general, how well did the Americans on your base seem to get along with the Japanese? CS: Fairly well. Most of the guys were assigned to ships that came in and out of Yokosuka. They liked the fact that they could out on the town on the [Hunch], which was the main street that had small restaurants and bars on it. Just to have a good time. But most of them adjusted quite well. The stuff that you see in the news occasionally, is, as shocking as it is, is that shocking because it’s so unusual. JS: You mean, like attacks on girls or things like that. CS: (nods head) Yes. The neat thing about Japan in those days, one of the common things that was discussed was, and they’d even tell you in intercultural relations, that a lot of Japanese society in the early ‘80s, cause I got there in ’82, and I left in ’84, were still like the ‘50s, in the United States. One of the things they taught you, and I don’t remember it anymore, was the phrase to yell if anybody bothered you. Because every man in the area would converge and shoo him away. (01:55:25) JS: Now, how long were you based there? CS: A little over two years. I was actually due to rotate in July in ’84 and stayed until November so that they could have an overlap with the person coming behind me. No gap. Interesting. JS: Okay. And where did you go after that? CS: Back to Norfolk, to the exact same place I had left. But to a different job in the organization. So I was doing similar things. And I was there for a little over two years. And then I transferred to Pearl Harbor. JS: Okay. And what was working in Pearl Harbor like? �CS: Oh. Pearl was great. It deteriorated in terms of being a tropical island environment since then. Because urban area, ten lanes of traffic on the freeway. Most people don’t associated that with Oahu, but it wasn’t like that then. The freeway was only four lanes in its busiest location. I lived a ways outside town. (01:56:30) CS: There’s all of the history associated with Pearl. I mean, when I was first stationed there, the Missouri wasn’t there yet. But, because she was still running around…because they’d recommissioned that battleships during that time frame. But you know, got to go look at the Arizona, and climb Diamond Head, and look at the emplacements up there, where the guns were. The bullet holes are still in the building, that Pacific Headquarters is in on the Air Force base. And you can look at them. One of my friends who lives there, Connie, was born there and spent a large amount of her youth there. Her father was an Air Force chaplain. And she ran the local USO facility, for a while, at the airport, and has all these old post cards of where the old facilities are, and World War II pictures of different things that used to happen then. (01:57:28) CS: It was Guam, only it was much better. It smelled a little better. It had a greater variety of vegetation. It had gorgeous beaches everywhere. The traffic was not bad. Then. JS: Better bookstores? CS: Oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, when I was living in Japan, one of the guys who was on the staff, but not in Operations. He was in Intelligence. He used to come to Hawaii four times a year to go to the bookstore at Pearl Ridge Mall. (Laughter) He would buy like five boxes of books and they’d mail them all to him. But yes, definitely better bookstores. (01:58:06) JS: And were you continuing to do the same kind of work that you had been doing? CS: No, actually. I was assigned to the PAC Fleet staff. So the senior operational Navy officer on the island, he was a 4 star…there was another Navy 4 star on the island but he was in charge of the joint command up at Camp Smith, and had Army and Air Force and whatever working for him, and was in charge of a geographical area at the time, as opposed to being in charge of all of the fleet forces in the Pacific Ocean. So I was on his staff. But I was in intelligence. I wasn’t in operations. I had asked for… I tried to figure out a way to describe what I wanted on my duty preference sheet, and I described it as technical intelligence. So my literal minded detail went through and hit on something that was defined as something that was label “technical intelligence” on the Fleet staff. So I wound up there, on a job where I eventually handled the control of what intelligence was disseminated to fleet units, afloat. You know, if you wanted to be added to a message distribution for something, you came in with a message and said...dah dah dah dah. And I would say, okay, or, no, you’re not supposed to have that by policy. And if I said yes, I would just send a message saying okay, and send it to the right people. And the person who had release authority would sign it. That was my Navy 06 that I worked for. (01:59:41) �CS: And, if I said no, I had to add justification paperwork to it. And get the Admiral to sign it. Because you weren’t allowed to say no. Without permission. You had to have a very good reason. So I did that. I handled Intelligence Exchange Conferences, the coordination of them. So any foreign arrangements we had with foreign Navies to share information, usually involved having a conference once or twice a year, to talk about common concerns. JS: Right. (02:00:15) CS: And I would handle those up, for the 06. JS: What countries were involved in that? CS: We, ah, we had formal relationships with Japan, of course. And with Korea. We have mutual defense treaties with both of them. As a matter of fact, five of the seven standing mutual defense treaties that the United States has are in the Pacific. And those are two of them. We also had a regular meeting with Thailand, one of the other formal defense arrangements. And a regular meeting with our Four-eyes allies. Canada, Great Britain and Australia. That was the fun one. (laughs) Everyone spoke English and got into all kinds of mischief. (02:01:05) JS: Was it generally interesting work, relative to what you had been doing, or… CS: I found parts of it more interesting than others. There were things about setting up Intelligence Exchange Conferences that were vastly boring and were basically secretarial work. But you had also had to make the decisions that went with them, which secretaries weren’t allowed to do. Some of it was… I enjoyed the exposure to the Intelligence community. Enough so that I…and because I was in this job, I… the secondary, technical skill that you earned with what I did in passive anti-submarine warfare was also intelligence related, it gave me what was called a sub-specialty, in intelligence. Two of them, one for joint intelligence and one for technical. So I was allowed to list intelligence in a section on my duty preference sheet for things that I would like to do in the future. And I kept myself on that list for a long time and it wound up affecting my final duty assignment, too. (02:02:12) JS: Okay. Now how long were you in Pearl Harbor? CS: Longer than I was supposed to be. We ended up going through a time frame while I was there when they were doing fiddly weird things with the budget and they wound up extending everybody in the Navy where they were for an additional two months, and then there was an additional two months besides that that got added on to me, so I was actually there, instead of thirty six months, I was there almost forty. I was there for thirty nine. I enjoyed myself. JS: So when did you leave there then? CS: I left at the end of April in 1990, and went to California. �JS: And where did they base you there? CS: Naval Facility, Centerville Beach. Which is the same type of duty that I had been doing, but I was an Operations officer rather than someone who was directing the watch. And that base…well, it’s silly to say it’s not there anymore, but it’s not there anymore. Physically, it’s still there but it was decommissioned as a base shortly after I left, three years later. (02:03:12) JS: All right. And as a place to live, did you like it better than Hawaii, or Norfolk, or wherever? CS: I liked it better than Norfolk. Far less than Hawaii. I thought I was going to freeze to death. After I’d been in Hawaii for three years, I’d lost all of my resistance to any kind of cold. Well, believe it or not, the area that I was in was 250 miles north of San Francisco and on the coast. And if it got up to 75 in the summer, it was considered quite warm. I remember in desperation a couple of times just getting in my car and driving inland, or somewhere south for an hour, to warm up. (laughs) JS: Right. CS: It was fairly isolated as a location, for California. Not what you think of as being California at all, because of where it was. It’s up by, uh, I actually lived in Eureka, so Eureka was about half way between Humboldt State and Arcada, and the base was outside a little tourist trap Victorian style town. So I lived in a town that was the biggest thing for a hundred miles around, basically. It was 20,000 people. (laughs) So, and it actually had a mall. It’d had a mall for five years, by the time I got there. A little one, about the size of one wing of Woodland (Mall, in Grand Rapids, Michigan). So it was okay. I had enough shopping there. (02:04:43) CS: I liked the physical environment. We could, we were by Trinity Alps and the state parks all through there. And Redwood National Forest, and the California state parks that are redwoods oriented. We were surrounded by all of this. So it was nice in that respect. It was very difficult for me to swim, which was what I did for my physical training testing every year, that I’d taken up in Hawaii, when it became legal to do that instead of only running. I had to do it at the local community college, which had very limited hours. So, I… it was okay. It wasn’t special. There were things I disliked about the environment a lot. Not about California itself. I wouldn’t go back there. There are things… JS: What… CS: a couple of things that I have bad associations with there. My mother died while I was there, for one thing. JS: And then, from there, where’d you go after that? (02:05:56) �CS: War College. Newport. JS: Back to Newport? CS: Back to Newport. Which granted me my Masters degree. The Navy War College is a degree granting institution. Because, at the time, I don’t know if they still are or not, they kept the same guy in charge there on for quite a while longer than they normally did, until they came up with another Admiral who had a PhD. Who therefore met the requirements to keep the degree granting status. So, I was there for ten months, for school. And had a wonderful time being with classmates, who were, basically, my peers. And from there, I went to Portugal. (02:06:36) JS: All right. And what did they have you doing there? CS: I was the officer in charge of the U.S. unit that supported personnel attached to a native staff. So it was a NATO staff in Lajes, Portugal. Cinciberlant. And the 3 star in charge of Cinciberlant is Portuguese. The deputy, 2 star, is American. And operations officer, a one star, is a Brit. And we also had a couple of German officers on staff. And a couple of Spanish liaison officers. We technically had a French liaison officer, but he was never there, cause it was in an additional duty for him. He was actually an attache’ at the French embassy. JS: Right. (02:07:12) CS: And he was in Lisbon most of the time. That was…that was fun. The unattached people my age, who were sort of my peers, were Brit. So I wound up hanging out with the unattached Brit officers on the staff. One of them is still a friend. She was the nursing sister in charge of the, who worked in the medical support unit. The Americans owned the dentist. The Brits owned the doctor. And nurse. So we were all treated by each other’s medical people. And she retired about five years after that, after she got back to England. And lives in Bath and I’ve visited her a couple of times. JS: Now what kind of work were you doing there? CS: Basic administrative work. Um, I owned the postal clerk, who was a subset of the Air Force Post Office that ran out of the embassy. I owned a small detachment of people that actually belonged to Rota, Spain, one of who was a personnel specialist and two of whom were dispersing people, who made sure we got paid, and who had money so that we could change U.S. money into Portuguese money, rather than keep local bank accounts. In Portuguese money. And lose money all the time. (laughs) (02:08:32) CS: I also owned a couple administrative personnel. A yeoman, a yeoman seaman who kept records. Cut orders, if I needed to send people for specialized medical treatment. To Spain. Where the hospital was. And I owned the dentist and the dental technician. I also had two civilians who worked for me, who were technically Portuguese national, one of them was �actually Scottish, who was married to a Portuguese national. One of them was a housing specialist. She did two things. She ran the Admiral’s quarters. Which we rented for him. And took care of dealing with any maintenance issues, and dealing with the landlord. And she also helped U.S. people coming in find places to live. Because we didn’t have military housing. Everybody lived on the economy and had a special allowance for it. (02:09:26) CS: The other civilian helped with logistics, transporting people’s property in and out. So, and she was, she had worked for the embassy. In South Africa, for a long time. The U.S. embassy. Moved home. Technically, both of my civilians worked for the embassy system. Because the entire group of U.S. support people that were there originally started out as an extension of the embassy staff. Attached to the attache’. And then when they put a NATO staff there, they took the flag billet away. Put it there and some of the people went there. And so they still technically owned my civilians. We didn’t have hiring ability locally. It was a confusing situation because the person who had all the oversight over me was the Deputy, the U.S. 2 star. But technically, I worked for the Admiral in London. For the CINCUSNAV Europe. (02:10:25) JS: Now was it a group who worked together pretty well? CS: Pretty much so. It was interesting when you did Hispanic Heritage while I was there because at one point, my postal clerk’s wife was Mexican. My yeoman was second generation Mexican. So was his wife, high school sweetheart. My personnel-man was Spanish. My DK chief, my dispersing chief, was a Hispanic extraction Pilipino. And my dental clerk’s husband was Portuguese. JS: And could they all talk to each other? CS: Oh, yes. Yes. It was fascinating. Belinda, who was the yeoman’s wife, used to whack him over the head occasionally. His first name was Fidel, by the way. And he had a goony sense of humor so he took advantage of it. Um, he would chatter away and think he was speaking more Portuguese than he was, and she would just go, “you’re not speaking Portuguese, Fidel. You’re speaking in Spanish.” She was learning more of it. As they went along. (02:11:39) CS: And I had radio yeomen who were on the NATO part of the staff, I supported, one who was from South America some place, one who was from Puerto Rico. (laughs) It was very interesting doing Hispanic Heritage day with all those guys there. JS: Right. Okay. Now where did you go after that? CS: I had orders out of there to the Defense Intelligence Agency in Washington. JS: Was that your last assignment? �CS: That was my last assignment. I did not work at DI proper. I worked in the Pentagon in the section that belonged to the joint staff. DI provides all of the intelligence personnel who are part of the joint staff J2. So they don’t count against the limitation on the number of people you can have on the joint staff. The legal limitation. And I worked with those people. So I worked in the Pentagon the whole time. (02:12:27) JS: And what kind of work were you doing there? CS: I did two different things. The first two years I was there, I was the Deputy Division Chief of the group of people who were, oh about, 60/40, sixty percent civilian, forty percent military, who handled response to crisis in intelligence issues, in support of the joint staff. The last year that I was there, I swapped out with one of my Marine Corp compatriots and went from one division to another division. And went to the group that stood watches and directly supported the General on the Operations side, who was also standing watch for crisis situations. So I handled the team of people that had area specialists and subject matter specialists, like guys who belonged to the National Security Agency, who were electronic intelligence emissions specialists. A CIA guy. Service desk officers, who I had a Navy desk officer, and then I had a guy who handled Eur-Asia, and a guy who handled the Pacific area, and a guy who handled Latin America. Specialists, and about a dozen people in a team. (02:13:38) JS: Okay. Then, did you have crises to respond to? CS: Oh, absolutely. During that time frame, there was always a bunch of nasty stuff going on in Africa, that you were keeping track of. You were also…it was post-Desert (Storm), but we were still flying watch over southern and northern… JS: Iraq, right? CS: Right. So there were things that you had to watch about what was going on with the flights. Reasons that you would have to call the J2, or notify the General who was standing the watch on the other side of the wall. There were things to do with monitoring missile launches. Either announced or unannounced. That you had to deal with. And you had drills, about what to do if it were the real thing. Those were interesting. (02:14:30) JS: In general were the people from the different branches of the military, and the civilians, did they work together effectively in these units? CS: Yes. In an environment that joint, they did. When you go back to Navy culture, you are exposed to someone who’s in a part of the Navy that has a lot of community prestige. Say the naval Aviation community. You’ll find guys that had a joint tour that just hated their joint tour. But there was legislation in the late ‘80s, about joint experience being a requirement for promotion to levels beyond a certain point. So they all have to do it, if they want to be promoted. �(02:15:13) JS: Then, over the course of your time in the Navy, did the atmosphere sort of change at all, for what it was like to be a woman in this service there? I mean, did it get easier or did attitudes stay about the same? CS: I don’t know that you would describe it as being easier. There are differences. The ability to go to different types of duty assignments changed. Increased. I remember my first duty station when they were going, on Guam, was when they were first looking at sending women to flight school. And they were taking applicants from active service, also. My commanding officer at the time asked me if I was going to apply. Well, I have corrected eyesight. And I hadn’t been wearing glasses for very long at that point. I didn’t start wearing them until about a year before I went in the service. And he didn’t realize because I was always wearing tinted glasses and my glasses were in fact prescription. And they weren’t taking anybody with eyesight that wasn’t corrected. So that was one thing. Um, I watched as they expanded the number of types of float units that women could be assigned to. Both officers and enlisted. The friend that I mentioned that was one of the first people that I knew that was from a Navy family, who had command twice, she went from our first duty station on Guam to an assignment on a submarine tender. On the east coast. And stayed surface Navy after that. And all of her commands have been in that community. Different types of ships, both times. (02:16:53) CS: Um, it’s far less restrictive than it was, in terms of duty assignments. Attitudes. It was bumpy, for a while. Because of course, no one really expected to have to take in to account what they should of expected to take into account. Which was how do you deal with a force that’s getting pregnant? (laughs) So, they’ve learned to cope with that. And there were some very negative vibes about that. For a while. They had to change all the rules, at one point, about pregnancy discharge. Because at one point, the only time in fact that you could get a pregnancy discharge was if you were pregnant. And then later it became not a cause for discharge. Voluntary or involunatary. (02:17:45) CS: I remember when I was stationed in Pearl, a guy in a restaurant, I had gone some place for lunch in uniform, asking me…there weren’t very many customers in at the time so he was idle, whether I had any problems with authority. And you say, no, if there are people with authority issues, they’ve mostly weeded them out, by the time you have to start dealing with them, except as a very junior officer. But, I noticed a major difference when I took the uniform off. (02:18:25) JS: What do you mean? CS: Much much harder to get things done. Because, eventually, it sank into the culture enough that they didn’t look at the person. They only looked at the uniform. And the rank. So, yes, it made a difference because you had different physical requirements. But it didn’t make the kind of difference it did when I first came in. There were still restrictions, still restrictions. Places you can’t go. There are no women in submarines. And that was really the only thing I would �have been interested in, personally. Would be duty at submarines. Aviation didn’t interested me. Neither did surface warfare. (02:18:59) JS: Now did you have a sense that there were Naval officers, especially when you came in, men, that didn’t really think that women should be there in the first place? CS: In the combat forces? Oh, yeah. It’s still a problem. I think. Some places in the Army. And it’s very hard, to deal with, on a public relations basis. When you have people under attack that is in fact related to the fact that they are women. In areas like the desert. JS: And were you aware of problems like this, sexual harassment and things like that going on? (02:19:30) CS: Yeah. We would talk about it. It was a subject of discussion. Have you ever been sexually harassed? I was surveyed a lot of times, mostly because I respond to them, when they send them to me. And…I never personally felt sexually harassed. But I knew people who did. I just was luckier. JS: Now you were based in California during the point that the Tailhook scandal came out? CS: Um hmm. JS: Now what sort of response was there, on your base, or how did they deal with that? (02:20:12) CS: Oh, that was interesting. Um, we had a junior officer that was a lieutenant, an 03, she had just made it. And she had come from an Aviation unit, even though she was not an aviator. So she had gone to Tailhook one year. And she actually knew the woman who was the prime point of contention. During what was going on. She said very privately, in discussions, that she probably brought it on herself. To a limited extent. No should have still have been no. but her behavior tended to be a bit wild and it led to things it didn’t need to lead to. Also my assistant operations officer…because in California, I was the Operations officer for the base, was a Navy aviator, who was a lieutenant, who had been to Tailhook in the past but had not been to that one. So you would have discussions about what people went into Tailhook expecting. And your basic response from most people who weren;t involved in the actual Tailhook convention, where the problem occurred, was Tailhook started out as a professional association where there were no seniority rules. Okay? (02:21:37) CS: Anybody could say anything to whoever was there. So if you were an 02, a lieutenant AG, you could tell it the way you saw it to the 06 aviators, who were there, who could influence the community. You had…one of the organizers were responsible for the getting of the venue and the details and setting up the professional seminars. Because they had very very good professional seminars associated with Tailhook. And the other thing that you went in expecting was a lot of drinking. Okay. You expected that. You didn’t necessarily expect misbehavior. �You did expect a lot of drinking. I had to certify that none of my subordinates had been in attendance at Tailhook. In writing. To the Navy. So that was… and that went into their records, that said they were not there. There was a service record entry on it. Later, when I was at War College, one of my classmates, who was also not just a classmate of the larger class, but was also in my seminar, was the guy who organized that Tailhook. He told us right up front that that’s who he was. At the meeting. (02:23:04) CS: At the time, he had been on a fast track for flag officer. He had assignment as a CEG. The person who runs all of the aviators afloat on a carrier. That he was about to go to, after this was over with. And, there was an inkling that there was an occurrence. At the conference. Which he knew about, only from having been told. It wasn’t something he witnessed. He had his wife at the conference. A lot of the guys brought their wives to the conference. And I met her, and she said the most serious thing that she endured while she was there was being pinched. And she just turned around and whacked whoever it was. But, um, he went ahead and he’d asked his chain of command if they thought that there’d be a problem if he went ahead, he was supposed to deploy. And they said, no no, go ahead. And he deployed. And then it started. Constant constant interaction with legal. They wound up having to fly him back from sea, assign him to a shore staff. He was never going to make it beyond the level that he was. And it was a terrible burden to them emotionally. To go through this over and over and over, at each level of the investigation. (02:24:26) CS: And I remember running into her, I’d gone into the uniform shop for something. And she was there getting out the car, probably picking something up for him, and I looked at her and she had the funniest look on her face. And I went over to her and said, “Are you all right?” And she said, “yes, it’s over. It’s finally over.” And she just bawled, for half an hour. It was bad that it had that kind of effect on somebody who did nothing wrong. (Wipes away tears. Shakes head) (02:25:07) JS: Something that seemed to kind of have a fallout beyond that in the Navy, were there policy changes or directives coming in, that… CS: Oh, yeah. There was. There was, of course, a much greater emphasis on harassment training. They revamped the program, re-did all of the standard training. Um, I think that the training itself became more effective, um, in that it was pointed…it was slightly modernized. They did a lot of work to try to make it more readily understandable. Pertinent to a different age group coming in. It had negative effects too. Tailhook was a very, a very valuable forum. The aviation community has a couple of things going for it in the Navy. (02:26:09) CS: One of them was the fact that it had this professional consortium where people could learn things together. It was a very, um, I don’t want to call it a bonding experience, it sounds so touchy-feely. But it didn’t make them tighter as a community and better able to trust each other as far as professional judgment, to what they’d been exposed to. It also exposes structural and functional problems to the entire chain of command, from a junior point of view. That was one �of the reasons it was a safe location. Nothing…nothing went out of there. I mean, you could be disrespectful to whoever you wanted to. And have it handled the way it was supposed to be. It was similar to, in a way, the way that the Naval Aviation community handled safety incidents. There’s no blame. You tell everything. So that they can make safety determinations properly on the equipment. That became much more limited, in terms of trust. (02:23:22) JS: Now, from where you were, did you kind of have the impression to the certain degree that there was excess, whatever, that it was in part kind of characteristic of the Aviation community as opposed to the rest of you. Uh, pilots are different people… CS: Pilots are a different bunch of people. You have to have a totally different kind of personality to operate successfully as a pilot. You put pilots in a group and pilots tend to behave like herd animals. JS: Yeah. CS: Submariners tend to be loners. They have to be. You’re in an extremely isolated situation where if you can’t make your own privacy around you, you can’t function for long periods of time underwater or deployed. Aviators also tend to be of an age group. (02:28:18) CS: Young. I had a friend who was an academy grad, who was a surface warfare officer. And in the academy, because your there for four years, in the summer they give you exposure to the different warfare communities, so you can see where you might have aptitude. They really wanted him to go into aviation. He had the reflexes for it, you see. But he didn’t care for the environment. He was not a herd animal. And when he was out, deployed at different points, he always had a plan for when they were going to be in port, for something that he was going to do. And the junior aviators, that was never the case. It was always, well, what’s the group going to do? Well, I’m not going to wait for the group to decide what to do. I’m going to have a plan to see something that I want, that I want to see in this strange area. Or that I want to experience. And if you want to go with me, that’s fine. (laughs) (02:29:24) CS: So, yes. Aviators are different. They tend to be extrovert personalities. In the very clichéd sense of the word. Needing the other people around for interaction. They can function on their own. They have to be able to function on their own, especially if they’re fighter pilots. That’s not how they socialize. When I was a lieutenant, JJ, I think his name was, the first time I was in Norfolk. I went to a class that was developed for the entire Navy in, for junior officers in leadership. Education and leadership training. Well, in Norfolk, it was a combined class of the version for Aviation and the version for everyone else. Cause there were slight differences. But they didn’t have enough people to handle it separately. So they combined the instructors. So I went through, I think at Naval Amphib base, but we had a lot of aviators in that particular class. So at lunch time one day, they put on a tape that was by a flight surgeon, who had been searching the topic for several years. And he had produced this instructional video that was kind of �controversial as far as the aviators were concerned. And these guys, this was their first opportunity to see it. (02:30:52) CS: Well, he had developed a theory that you could predict stress problems, in aviators, soon enough to be able to catch them in a safety related sense, if you watched their behavior patterns. And they, the behavior patterns, varied on a scale, he used 1 to 10. Rated from 0 to 10, but the P3 guys objected to being a zero (laughs) so, he had to change it. But the example he used was P3 guys, you judge a party, excellence, by the quality of the food and wine served, at the party. And he went up a level. And these guys, they judge a party’s excellence by the amount, the quantity of money that was consumed, spent on the party. And then you get to the fighter guys, just short of fighter pilots, the next level up, and that’s by the size of the bar bill. And then you get to the fighter pilots and they judge a party by the size of the damages to the bar. (Laughter) And then he said you get to helicopter pilots and they don’t have parties. (Laughs) So the level of stress goes up throughout. (02:32:20) CS: Really, it’s true. Because pilots have to be able to compartmentalize. And that’s what he was using to predict stress. To fly my plane, is the compartment in the middle. It’s the last one to go. So if you want to predict a safety problem from somebody, you have to look at the other compartments. Are they having family problems? Are they having stress problems in this area? Are they having other problems in their work? What going on with this and this and this… He said, now I’ve had a lot of guys ask me, thinking it would be a good idea if their spouse’s saw this particular film. I want you, before you ask that, to consider if you really want your wife to know that she lives only in a compartment of your life. (02:33:10) JS: You have your twenty-odd years in the Navy and then you eventually get downsized. Where do you go from there? CS: The only place that I ever cried when I left was Pearl Harbor. Every place was interesting but that was the only place that mattered that much to me, and I wanted to try living in Hawaii. It’s very expensive. It’s not easy to do on retired pay. So, it’s not really even possible to do it in any comfortable sense on retired pay plus working at some service job. You know, like McDonald’s or a bookstore, or something. So I knew that I would have to have another income. I have a lot of friends that are still in Hawaii, so I went out and stayed with one of them for six weeks, then moved into an efficiency and applied for positions. And I had figured out that I had enough money at I could stay there for about ten months. And if by then I did not have a job that could pay enough that I could stay, that I could ship my express shipment back to the mainland. I put everything else in storage. (02:34:15) JS: Right. CS: In the D.C. area. I had my car and about 800 pounds of express stuff, clothes and records and books, whatever, and I managed that. I applied for a civil service position in September, and �I got there in July. And the position closed. They called me for an interview in December. Told me in January that if I cleared, I had the job. I cleared in March and went to work for them in April. I had been working for the Census Bureau. That was census year. (02:34:50) CS: A little extra income coming in. And I work in intelligence. JS: So, now you do that as a civilian rather than… CS: (nods head yes.) Um hmm. JS: Now how do ou think your, ah, time in the service wound up affecting you as a person? Or how do you view the world of things? CS: It is very different. You have to learn to think in much wider terms. Both geographically. Issue-wise. In terms of…just in time zones. I mean, that’s one thing that being stationed in the Pacific does for you. If you can’t think in time zones, you can’t figure anything out. Cause you have to talk to D.C. in the morning and Japan in the afternoon. JS: Right. (02:35:28) CS: Um, we change very gradually. You notice at first that it changes what you eat. What you find acceptable. And then you notice that the things that you pay attention to, in the terms of the news, are not the same things that everybody else pays attention to. At home. I cannot talk to my brother about anything but family. I have no relationship to anything in local politics. And I still haven’t developed much of one, though it’s coming back. After being in Hawaii since 2000, so, almost, over eight years now. You pay attention to national elections, you pay attention to what your senator says. What your representative says in terms of international things. (02:36:30) CS: General domestic policy things on tax. You don’t pay attention to anything local, road systems, construction. Whatever. If your single. Now if your married, to tend to be able to take that skill set out and plug it in in a different location because it’s going to affect your children. JS: Right. CS: That stuff to do with the school systems and transportation and that kind of thing. You have different concerns. Portability of skills for your spouse. What’s a new area going to be like that way. So your much more aware of the differences in geographic areas, in terms of what the housing market looks like. In terms of what the job market looks like. (02:37:19) CS: Um. Especially the housing market. Even if your single. Somethings to do with the transportation pattern but not the transportation infrastructure, usually. Costs. I had a guy I was talking to in Hawaii when I was stationed there. I said, “where do you want to go when you �transfer, Ed?” He said, “Norfolk.” I said, why Norfolk? He said, because of the five or six big places that I could be stationed as an intelligence officer, which is what he was, that’s the only one where I can afford to buy a house. (02:37:52) CS: Cause all of the other areas were high cost areas. And he had a family, couple of little kids. You pay attention to different things in the weather. I mean, you start looking at patterns that affect much farther out. Then local weather reporting, it’s much different than when I first went in. You do see things in the satellite patterns in the local area, in regionally. And if you watch the weather channel, you see it. It’s become a skill that the civilian community also has, looking at weather in terms of travel. (02:38:36) JS: Um hmm. CS: But you develop that really quickly in the military, moving around, having to check things like that. The availability…you get very inventive about being able to get things that you can’t find, wherever you are. For a long time, every once in a while I would just go absolutely bonkers. And I would call my sister and say I need you to go to the grocery store and buy me two rings of bologna, freeze them solid for two weeks. Call Federal Express. Find out when the shipment goes out. Put it in a box and deliver it to Federal Express abot an hour before the shipment is going to go out, so they can pack it in dry ice and they can send it to wherever I am and it’ll thaw out just about the time it gets here. (Laughter.) (02:39:20) CS: it’s just like that silly episode of MASH, where they went crazy trying to get some food that they could only get in Chicago. Yes. You could figure out strange things like that, eventually. Of course, if you’re in Aviation and you know someone whose flying from one point to another, that helps. But I’ve never been able to take advantage of that sort of thing. You learn flight patterns. You pick up the habit of having the airline mileage accounts much earlier than most people do, so that you can do something with it. You have the time zone map in your head. I never have succeeded in telling anyone in my family, having anyone learning what time it is, where I am. And that implies, that also includes when I was stationed in Virginia, both in Norfolk and at the Pentagon. And I was in the same time zone as they were. They still could not remember where I was and where they were. (laughs) (02:40:21) CS: My cousin would call me. What time is it? Three o’clock in the morning, Charlie. (Shakes head.) But yes, it does, it changes your priorities too, because you can see wider patterns internationally, than a lot of people who don’t do a lot of traveling, can see. So you worry about different things. JS: Well, it makes for a pretty remarkable story. And thank you for taking the time to tell it to us. CS: Thank you. �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeifertC Title A name given to the resource Seifert, Cathy (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seifert, Cathy Description An account of the resource Cathy Seifert was born in Grand Rapids, MI in 1952. After graduating from Hope College, she entered the civil service in 1976, and then went to the Naval War College for officer training in 1978. She then served as a naval officer in various capacities until retiring in 1999. She served in Hawaii, Guam, Japan, Portugal, Norfolk, and finally at the Pentagon, serving with the Defense Intelligence Agency. She describes her different assignments in detail, and also says a good deal about life in the Navy and issues confronted by women officers during the period in which she served. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-13 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df50b30af2668fb9ce8bde368d2f15bf.mp4 0c639a377775bd52b68f75c64fe1d933 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f4031b0f84ca51404819b73ba46c03b7.pdf a00b8df3317aba2fc5e5b1c13056e5a2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 24:18 Ronald James Seigel United States Air Force; 1979 - ? Air Force Security Specialist (0:00) Personal information • Born in Greenville, MI in 1961 • Joined Air Force in 1979 at age of 18 • Basic training in San Antonio, TX then sent to Kelly Air Force Base, TX for service (1:05) Why joined the service • Seemed like a good idea • Nothing else going on in life • Job as Air Force Security (2:06) Typical day • Would work 3 second shifts and then 24 hours off; then would work 3 third shifts and have 3 days off • Kind of like a civilian job but under military control • Air Force Security o Physical security of different buildings, aircraft, and personnel o Keep people from unauthorized areas, etc. o Carried automatic weapons like M-16s and pistols o Authorized to shoot people if necessary (3:55) Training • Training in weapons • Advanced training which dealt with exotic weapons • Went to an air base defense school where learned how to handle the “big” weapons and tactics (4:27) Most memorable moments (story 1) • Nearby auxiliary base • Provided physical security for a squadron that listened to Latin American radio traffic for intelligence purposes o Cuba, other socialist countries • Down the road there was a nuclear weapon storage facility • He was on duty during the third shift. At 3 am, he and other Air Force Security policemen were in the guard house when heard a huge explosion. Everybody hit the floor; the sound came from by the nuclear facility o Explosion was loud enough to “stunt you out of 20 years growth!” • Turns out, somebody had set off a detonator by accident • Luckily, the detonators and warheads are stored in two separate units (6:06) Most memorable moment (story 2) �• • Doing a walk-around a B-52 airplane B-52 landed on base o Kelly Air Base was a linguistics base, meaning that repaired avionic equipment for all types of military planes o Many planes flew in from all over • This B-52 was uploaded with bombs and weapons and thus Air Force Security was required to walk around the plane continuously while it was on the base • In the middle of the night, Seigel was circling the plane and heard a ticking noise; looked up and saw 4 – 50 caliber machine guns following his movement • Someone had accidentally left the tracking system on in the plane and the guns were tracking Seigel's metal in his gun • The four 50 caliber machine guns were not loaded but still a bit unsettling • Radioed somebody; a cornel came and shut off tracking system • Seigel got to go inside and have a look around! (8:04) Iran hostage incident • Served during peacetime, however, in service when Iran hostage incident occurred • 1982 and the ex-Shah of Iran had cancer; ex-Shah was flown to the US for treatment; landed at Seigel’s base – Kelley Air Force Base, TX • Lots of demonstrations around the base • Everyone was on high alert • Seigel and other men in his unit were authorized to shoot to kill (9:16) If had to go to battle • Felt ready • Did so many exercises that wasn’t nervous • Air Force Security Specialists o They are like the ground troops of the Air Force o Defend the air bases o In Vietnam, never lost an air base because of security specialists ƒ “air police” (10:20) Life in the Air Force • Got a little homesick • Went on leave 2-3 times per year • Food was awesome • Barracks were a lot like college dorm rooms o 2 per room o Community bathroom or suite style living (11:52) Hardest part of training • Mental stress because never knew exactly what was going on until half way through • On the run, not a lot of sleep • Training was geared toward seeing how much pressure/ stress someone could take before breaking • Motivation = patriotism • Protect country �• No regrets about enlisting • Favorite part about experience was the people he met (14:15) Most influential person on the base • Staff Sergeant Hubner o Their squad commander • Good guy, a little nutty o Would go dumpster diving to collect cans for money from the recycling plant (15:30) Relaxation • Stereo wars • One guy would turn up stereo a little bit and then another person would turn up theirs a little bit until the barracks area sounded like a war zone because it was so loud (17:00) Rank • Air? – first class o In army comparison, he was like a corporal (17:29) Impact on life • Before the Air Force, felt like the king of the mountain • Service made him stop and think (18:01) Political stance • Middle of the Cold War when served • Early 1980s, things were tense • Needed to put up a tough front for the rest of the world (18:50) After the service • Got married • Career • Had kids (21:00) Final stories • While in the service, got to see extraordinary planes o F-15, Navy fighter plane o Went at super ballistic speed down runway o Once wheels left the group, pilot tilted it straight up like a rocket and it shot up out of sight • Used to stand on top of the buildings at night and watch planes take off (22:50) Steps to achieve rank • Rank is based on time in service • Promotion depended on 2 things o 1. proficiency (done through testing) o 2. positions available � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeigelR Title A name given to the resource Seigel, Ronald James (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seigel, Ronald James Description An account of the resource Ronald Seigel served in the United States Air Force as an Air Force Security Specialist at the Kelley Air Force Base in Texas starting in 1979. Although technically serving during peacetime, his personal account of his time in the service is very interesting. In this interview, Seigel shares stories from the third shift like hearing a nuclear detonator explode at nearby facility and getting accidentally tracked by a B-52's four 50 caliber machine guns. Also, while at Kelley Air Base, Seigel talks about how he witnessed the arrival of the ex-Shah of Iran who was flown to the base to begin cancer treatment at an area hospital. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carey, Lynda (Interviewer) Belaya, Elena (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military United States. Air Force Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-05-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/10bae767f5420a96dd531e69d2ec8268.jpg 4fd5454dc7e5ff5f37b8aaa0691d79f0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeleyBeverly Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1980 Title A name given to the resource Seley, Beverly Description An account of the resource Beverly Seley, Art Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1980s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c40401f393c5e9a33f31bf82f920b94a.jpg f5f439ea73f8050d1b8c4829adac7a0f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeleyJamesWade Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1980 Title A name given to the resource Seley, James Wade Description An account of the resource James Wade Seley, Assistant Director of Admissions Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1980s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/019be6fe937125e9f11d35bf89b8564c.jpg 9d0808422d04f4413962fdd5b1b0f613 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SellersMark Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Sellers, Mark Description An account of the resource Mark Sellers Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/933773a89034e79630413390137a1891.pdf 49244c253757f9e7d86d1ac1aeca8d1e PDF Text Text srATE OF MICHIGAN Michigan Legislature SENATE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION No. 108 Offered by Senators Henry, Corbin an::I McCollough (Representatives De Lange, Krause, Ehlers and Ouwinga named as co-sponsors) A CONCURRENI' RESOLUTION HONORING MR.PEI'ER TERMAAT -MRS.ADRIANA TERMMT Whereas , It iswith the greatest pride and admiration that the members of the Michif;an Legislature join with the Government of The Netherlands and the Nationaal Comite Verzetsherdenkingskruis of The Netherlarrls in honor ing Mr.Peter Termaat ·- Mrs.Adriana Termaat for their courageous and life saving ef forts with the Dutch Resistance movement during World War II. In acknowledgement of their valor, they are two of thirty-eif;ht former Dutch Resistance fighters now living i n the United States, seven fro m West Michigan, who received Resistance Remembrance Cross Medals from Prince Bernhard in Washington D.C . on October 8, 1982; and Whereas, On 10 May 19~0, the beautiful an::I tranquil Dutch lan::lscape was invaded by the military forces of Germany • In five days of the German Blitzkrieg, the center of Rotterdam was completely destroyed by aerial bombardment, the Dutch A'f"MY was forced to surrender, and a German administration was established. By June 19h0, the citizens of occupied Netherlan::ls, disheartened but not defeated, organized the beginnings of what would become an effective an::I heroic urrlergrourrl movement in res1stance to the German occupation. While life under the procrustean Nazi regime was a constant nightmare of physical, emotional, and intellectual terror, subjugation, and neglect, the spirit and determination of Dutch citizens like Peter and Adr i ana Termaat were never extinguished ; and Whereas, While the Nazi regime attempted to impose its will throughout the Dutch nation, its citizens fought back by distributing illegal newspapers, organizing strikes , disrupting German administration of the country, and rescuing and providing refuge for Jews, Allied pilots who had been shot down, and Dutchmen escaping the forced labor of the German war machine. Certainly, the gallant exploits of individuals like Peter and Adriana Termaat in the face of the gravest personal danger are indicat ive of the indomitability of the human spirit and should forever be remembered by those who cherish enjoy liberty an::I justice; now therefor be it RESOLVED BY THE SENATE ( the House of Repr esentatives concurring) , That the members of the Michigan Legislature are proud to accord our highest accolades of praise and recognition to Mr.Peter Termaat and Mrs.Adriana Tennaat f or their courageous activities with the Dutch Resistance Movement during World War II and for their award of the Resistance Remembrance Cross Medal ; and be it further RESOLVED , That a copy of this resolution be transmitted to Mr, and Mrs Terma.at as a reflection of the great pride and esteem held fo~ them by the members of the Michigan Legislature . Adopted by the Senate, March 2b, 1983 . Adopted by the House of Representatives, March 2'-l, 1983. William C.Kandler Signed: Thomas S.Husband Secretary of the Senate Clerk of the House of Representatives � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_AWD_1983-03-24-Michigan-Senate-recognition-393 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource State of Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1983-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Senate Concurrent Resolution 108 (1983) Description An account of the resource Typescript text of the State of Michigan Senate Concurrent Resolution 108, to honor Mr. Peter Termaat and Mrs. Adriana Termaat. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan. Legislature. Senate -- Resolutions Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca02ef3519352edbad4b7448fb6cf672.mp4 ca133a071577631a5c455c213046bc28 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ac26916e5452a6df9974cdda710077f.pdf c7b68142c3bbe73a8de3036cc322b9dd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Peter Senft 1:13:00 Introduction (00:23)         Peter was born on August 27, 1948 in Dallas, Texas. He only lived there a year or two before his family relocated to northern New Jersey. After some additional cross-country travel, the family finally settled in Ridgewood, New Jersey. His father was a textbook publishing executive who traveled a lot for his job. Peter graduated from high school in June 1967. After high school, he attended Marsh Army College in Charleston, South Carolina for one year. He majored in drinking and chasing women. His father brought him home and made him go to Fairleigh Dickinson University in Wayne, New Jersey for another year. His father told him he had to get all A‟s for him to continue to pay for his school and Peter got a B+ average. He then went down to the Army recruiting station and eventually enlisted for a career in intelligence. Peter enlisted in the United States Army in March 1969. He had been paying attention to the conflict in Vietnam so he knew where he was going once he got in the service. (02:45) To get into the intelligence field, he had to take a test prior to going in to see if he qualified for the MOS, which he did. When he enlisted, he was given 90 days before he had to ship out. Military Training (03:09)         Peter went to basic training in June 1969 at Fort Dix, New Jersey. Everything in basic training was geared for Vietnam such as a 20 mile hike that they would do in Vietnam and to shoot their rifle because it would save their life in Vietnam. All of his instructors were Vietnam vets, and most of them were E-6 or above. Adjusting to military life was easy for Peter because his father was a very strict disciplinarian growing up who fought in World War II and emulated General George Patton. (04:56) About 60% of his training company were draftees that just wanted to stay alive in Vietnam so they learned as much as they could. During basic, they never left the base, but once towards the end of training they were able to have visitors on base. Basic training lasted for eight weeks. after basic training Peter was sent to Fort Holabird, Maryland to begin his intelligence training. (06:23) The atmosphere was much more relaxed at this school. It had very little weapons and survival training but more emphasis on his job which was a combat order battle intelligence analyst. �         His job was to analyze the enemy on the battlefield and present that information to the commanding officer. The instructors for this course came from all branches and a Marine captain stood out to Peter as a great guy. They lived in a barracks and went through the normal military protocol such as inspections, but it was much more relaxed. The work was largely classroom, and the course lasted 8-12 weeks. Peter was then volunteered to become a Shake & Bake NCO. Since Peter was second or third in his class, he was told that after the program he would come out as an E-5. They could also be sent all over the world wherever they were needed. All of them were sent to Vietnam. (08:47) The NCO training was very interesting to Peter, because they were able to do things that most soldiers don‟t normally get to do. They had to infiltrate an island that was set up like Vietnam and they had to swim to the island and work out things once there. This program was 16 weeks. His training was completed in May 1970. Along the way, he took some weekend trips home by train while he was still stationed in New Jersey. Peter‟s next stop was Vietnam. Vietnam (10:21)         Prior to being sent to Vietnam, Peter was given a 30 day leave to go home. After his leave, he reported to McChord Air Force Base and boarded a World Airways DC-10 and flew to Alaska, Japan and finally to Bien Hoa, Vietnam. His first impression of Vietnam was that it smelled horrible, it was hot and wet. They landed during the night because he remembers seeing flashes in the clouds and wondering if it was thunder or artillery. The men were put in a hooch and had to wait for two days before they were given their orders. Peter was assigned to S-2, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. (S-2 is the intelligence office of the unit) He was then flown in to Phu Bai and then trucked up to Camp Evans. Once he arrived at Camp Evans, he went through SERTS (Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School) which helped the replacements learn the basics they needed to survive in country. This school lasted for five days. (12:40) During the school they learned how to rappel and they also dealt a little bit with dealing with the locals. The first task that Peter was asked to do was to complete a combat order battle intelligence report. This consisted of several reports that he had to combine into one. When Peter got to his unit, he was the only trained intelligence person in the brigade; he had two E-7‟s above him, a captain and then his CO, Major Andre. (14:12) Ripcord (14:24)  When he was looking over the data and maps, he realized that Firebase Ripcord, which was being held by the 101st Airborne, was surrounded by two fresh NVA divisions at 110 �             to 120% strength. In addition to the two divisions, they also had an artillery regiment and a reinforced sapper unit; which made the enemy numbers around 20,000 men, against a battalion that was at about 60-75% strength. That American unit was the 2/506th, 101st Airborne. In June, Peter started working a 12 hour shift at the brigade operation center manning the S-2 radio. He would call in the requested air support and anything else the men in the field needed. (16:30) The mood in the headquarters was very business like, even when things were bad in the field. On one occasion, Generals Westmoreland and Abrams came in to see how things were going and Peter had to give them an intelligence briefing. Peter also had to brief the Division commander. (18:55) The first week he was in country, he had to go up in a Nighthawk helicopter at night that flew around the wire. That night they saw something in the wire, and the door gunner opened fire with the mini-gun mounted on the chopper. It jammed, and the gunner yelled for Peter‟s M-16 rifle. The gunner lost his balance on a tight bank and he lost the M-16 out the open door and it landed outside the wire. The next day a patrol was sent out and retrieved it for him. (21:28) A week before Ripcord was evacuated, Alpha Company found a Hungarian folding stock AKM modified rifle. Major Andre came in and told Peter that he was going out to Ripcord to pick it up. He flew there on a supply chopper and when it landed at Ripcord he jumped off and ran into the operations center and then run back to the chopper. Only when he returned with the weapon, they helicopter was gone and he had to stay there for a day or two. (22:30) Being on Ripcord sometime around the 15th to the 18th of July, Peter was scared to death and he stayed in the operation center the whole time. It was cramped and hot, but he slept down there and worked the radio a bit; he was brought back the next day. They received 40-50 incoming rounds of mortar fire each day. The impression that he got from the men stationed on Ripcord was that they were going to get the job done. (24:08) There was a lot of drug use, but Peter did not do it because he always wanted to be able to react on a moments notice. He did drink a fair amount when he was not on duty, but it never interfered with his job. (26:25) Peter knows that the drugs and things were around, but he never recalls seeing it. Peter was in country for almost a year, around 40 days shy of the full year. While there he would do briefings, accumulate information from various sources and he worked with the RNS platoon (Reconnaissance Surveillance) going out into the field and showing them what he was looking for intelligence wise with things that they would encounter, such as bunker complexes. (30:43) When the order to evacuate Ripcord came through, Peter thought the political situation dictated the order. Peter‟s impression of General Berry [assistant commander of the division], was a by the book leader who was not well liked. (34:51) General Smith however, understood the different situations that the men would encounter in the field and he usually did the right thing instead of going by the book. (36:06) �               During interrogations of enemy POW‟s, Peter learned that they were a good source of credible information and no torture or mistreatment of any prisoners were done that he witnessed. At the Division level, if they could not get any answers from the prisoners they would go for a cup of coffee and come back fifteen minutes later. The prisoner would then tell them anything they wanted to know. This was probably because of the ARVN soldiers that did something to the prisoners while the Americans were away. Prisoners were usually just ordinary Viet Cong or NVA soldiers. Ripcord was evacuated on the 22-23 of July. After that, Peter worked at Firebase Nancy. It was on the road, nine clicks south of the DMZ. They shared the base with the ARVN‟s that did not go into Laos. (38:38) He was there in spring 1971. Another job that he did was to provide targets for Arc Lights B-52 strikes, flame drops and other aircraft strikes. On one of these flame drops, Peter knew that Americans were in the area and he radioed the unit and instructed them to pop a smoke. Peter saw the smoke and called out that he saw “Goofy Grape” (purple) but the soldier on the ground said that he had popped “Banana” (yellow) so they dropped their explosives on the goofy grape position and killed four or five enemy soldiers. (40:58) During Lam Son 719, they lost a lot of aircraft, most of which were attached through the ARVN units. Peter knew very little about the campaign because they were not that involved in it. While on Firebase Nancy, they brought in 8in SP (Self Propelled) Guns to support Lam Son. They shook the whole base and when they would fire, rats would fall dead from the rafters just from the concussion. (44:05) They would often eat what they called „mystery meat‟ which Peter believes to be water buffalo that were taken with mortars from the base. It was far better than c-rations. About once or twice a year he wakes up having screaming nightmares. He can usually suppress most bad memories and he likes to remember the good times. (47:31) When he had five days left in country, he was so short that he could sit on the edge of a dime and his feet wouldn‟t touch the ground. The only obligation that he had was to be at the 5 o‟clock briefing. He was ordered to go out and get some pigs that Colonel David Grange had shot outside of a firebase. Peter told him that he only had five days left and he didn‟t want to go back out in the field. Colonel Grange ordered him to go out and gave him his helmet, flak jacket and Remington 870 shotgun. He went out and found the three pigs and brought them back and had a great party afterwards. (50:15) On another occasion, they shot a Vietnamese elk and brought it back to base tied underneath the chopper. Peter took his R&R in the spring in Bangkok. After Ripcord, not much happened in country. Peter also came back to the states for a two week leave and he landed on December 26 back home. He had a lot of fun that two weeks and has many stories to tell. It was okay for him to go back to Vietnam afterwards because he looked at it as an incomplete job. (52:39) � He saw very little of the civilian population, but he was also ordered not to have contact with the locals out of Camp Evans. He did do some work with local officials, but not much. Back in the States (53:56)           Peter came home in mid May 1971. He was given a month leave and then returned to Fort Holabird and was assigned to United States Army Intelligence Command. He worked in the security clearance adjudication center. Peter also applied to become a special agent for the United States Army Intelligence, and was accepted. He was sent to Fort Huachuca Arizona for training and was trained as a special agent. He learned about counter-intelligence and how to collect intelligence, conducting interviews both friendly and hostile, how to investigate and pursue different crimes such as sedition or sabotage. After he completed the training, he was assigned to Garden City, Long Island to run background investigations. (55:37) Peter got to Garden City around June and was there for six months when they closed his office in October. He was reassigned to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, New York. When he reported in, he was told that they had too many agents and to go home and they would call him when he was needed. In December, he was called and asked if he would like to learn how to pick locks (DAME; Defense Against Methods of Entry) back at Fort Huachuca in January. He agreed and was sent. After that, he still did not have an assignment so he stayed for another course before being sent to Fort Riley, Kansas where he did some background investigations. Because of his DAME training, he was selected to conduct penetration inspections. For this, he would dress up and try to gain access to restricted areas to test their security. (57:56) One such inspection was at the G2 of the 1st Infantry Division. He was eventually found and detained. While being detained he had to lie face down on the ground spread eagle with a cocked .45 pistol at the back of his head for ten minutes before they verified who he was. For a month, Peter was sent Anacostia Naval Air Station to learn computer security. His instructor there was Grace Hopper, who coined the term „bug‟ for things that go wrong with computers. (59:44) Peter was then transferred to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri where he was involved in an organized crime investigation. The investigation led him to Springfield, Missouri about several organized crime groups fighting over the Fort Leonard Wood area. (1:03:30) After giving his report to the state attorney general‟s office, he kept a copy for himself and it was later discovered, which is a huge breach in military conduct. He was given an Article 15 and he decided to get out of the service. (1:05:10) When he got out of agent school, he extended for six months. He had given it thought about staying in for a career. Civilian Life (1:06:14)  When he got out of the army, Peter got into the publishing business. His father sold textbooks, but Peter got into the advertising and marketing side of the business. He retired about five years ago. �     Now he runs a small antique business that sets up a booth at a flea market twice a week. Looking back at his military service, it reinforced the discipline that he had when he was growing up. Having a plan and staying organized was also a benefit. His service also gave him the survivor mentality that he applied to the jobs that he had when he got out, he always had an out and nothing that his bosses could do to him was as bad as what he already went through in Vietnam. (1:09:44) He doesn‟t have many psychological problems, except for some survivor‟s guilt. In Vietnam, he lost two very good friends, but he hasn‟t been to the memorial wall. After he got home, he began living his life and buried everything about Vietnam. Now, he is very active with his chapter of Vietnam Veterans and is proud of the men he served with. (1:12:45) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SenftP1550V Title A name given to the resource Senft, Peter (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Senft, Peter Description An account of the resource Peter was born August 27, 1948 in Dallas, Texas. He graduated from high school in 1967 and after trying a couple of colleges he eventually went to the United States Army recruiting station and enlisted. He signed up for intelligence and after basic training he went to intelligence school where he learned how to become a combat order battle intelligence analyst. Peter was sent to Vietnam in 1970 and was assigned to S-2, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. He spent time on Firebase Ripcord and made it home in May 1971. After returning from Vietnam, Peter became a special agent with the United States Army Intelligence before being discharged. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-10 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e0e3d09b4469d011726a3516e17ef7f8.jpg d7794cc02dbd8fc8676c164d6f130b30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club Description An account of the resource Scrapbooks of newsclippings, photographs, postcards, and ephemera of the Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club. Photos were taken at regattas on Reeds Lake; the Grand River; Peoria, Illinois; and in Chicago of club members, and events. Historical articles, reports of regatta events, and articles featuring members Charles McQuewan and Jack Corbett are included. Programs include the First Grand Regatta on Great Salt Lake 1888, and Peoria Rowing Festival, and banquet and music programs and the GR Log, a publication of the Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club. Materials from the Central States Amater Rowing Association, and the National Association of Amateur Oarsmen are also included. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1980s to 1940s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/481">Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club scrapbooks, (RHC-54)</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Rapids (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Boats and boating Racing shells Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-54 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-54_Photographs-GRRC20 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource no date Title A name given to the resource Senior Double Chicago Description An account of the resource Joe Geilan, stroke, and H. Geilan, at the bow, perform in a doubles event on a Saturday. Trees on a shoreline in the background. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Rapids (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Boats and boating Racing shells Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/481">Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club scrapbooks (RHC-54)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/">No Known Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5efeab1d4c059ad954c6fc3fc808691.mp4 28c198443a28e90d5a1ca9fd2ed93990 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5df9fc3d8cb089a875b32137e66b1c7.pdf 08a687c24f0f46a4a0d057bdb1693714 PDF Text Text Senior, Alan Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Alan Senior Length of Interview: (50:53) Interviewed by: Tony Lupo Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “Here with Alan Senior, February 20, 2003. Served in World War II, Sergeant in the U.S. Army Air Corps, and he was a waist gunner on a B-24. Could you describe when you heard about Pearl Harbor and what effect did it have on you and your family?” I remember very distinctly what I was doing on December 7, 1941. I was riding in a girlfriend’s car. I was sitting in the middle next to her and there was another girl on the other side, and we were just driving around visiting some friends. The announcement came over the radio about the attack and the reaction, as you can imagine, to some juniors in high school was wondering what’s going to happen. What’s going to happen to us as we were of the military age, coming up. It wasn’t any great feeling of despair, shock, and worry. We just knew that we were going to be at war and we were going to win it. It never occurred that anything else could be the outcome. (1:36). Interviewer: “Were you drafted or did you enlist?” I came close to being drafted but I did enlist in the Voluntary Induction Program. I wanted to be a flyer and the only way you could assume that you were going to be in the Air Force was to join the Air Cadets. So I proceeded to take the exams and did that all. I even had my service record with me except— the one part that wasn’t accepted and completed was the weight and the physical. Being a skinny kid at 17 at the time, I only weighed 121 pounds and I had to weigh 128 to get in. Here I was, with the countdown to my 18th birthday coming in May and I couldn’t gain any weight. So, we worked around that. A friend of mine told me about drinking a gallon of water because of “the pint a pound the world around.” We got in my dad’s car, drove to the post office in Buffalo. New York and parked outside on the street— early morning— and I proceeded to drink as much of that gallon of water as I could except for maybe an inch or two on the bottom. I just couldn't hold anymore and told my friend, “Let’s go.” He steered me across the street up to the fourth floor of the federal building and when I got up there— I had been up there several times before trying to get weighed to pass. There was a line stretching down the hall around the corner and I said to my friend that I’ll never make it if I have to stay at the bottom of �that line. So I went up to the Sergeant who knew me by sight— by that time— and he said, “Senior, what are you doing here?” I said, “Sir, I want to get weighed.” He said okay, so he stopped the line, I stepped on the scales, and he asked me how much I was supposed to weigh. I said, “128.” He said, “You just made it. Now get the heck out of here.” You can imagine how happy I was at the time and I have to say, we never passed a gas station on the 14 mile ride home. (4:18). Interviewer: “Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?” Oh. I always wanted to fly. I wanted to be a pilot and I just couldn’t imagine being in the Navy or the Army, I just had to do that. I would not have— I can’t imagine what life would have been if I hadn’t been to the Air Force. Interviewer: “Do you recall your first days in the service and what did it feel like?” There were two of us from— that were going into the Air Force. I was living in a small town of under 6,000 people outside of Buffalo, New York. So my two friends would board the train at night, going to Greensboro, North Carolina where we had basic. That was the last I saw my two friends. They went their way and I went mine. They both became— I think— navigators, and I didn’t quite make it through the Air Cadet program. I became your aerial gunner. So basic training was in June in North Carolina— wasn’t any great hardship. It was quite a change of life for me. I was the only child and there’s not too many accommodations you have to make. The biggest one I had to make in the service was eating the army food because it wasn’t all good, in my opinion. (6:12). Interviewer: “After boot camp and gunnery training where exactly were you stationed? What unit were you attached to?” Well the basic training, and then I went to a couple training schools, and then after that I made it to Laredo, Texas for gunnery. Like the Army does things, I attended the winter in Vermont and the gunnery school in Texas [for] June, July, and August. And it was hot. In fact, I have the clipping that was taken out of the base paper that said, “The mercury skids to refreshing 113.” Talk about gaining weight, I lost what little weight I had then and when I left I weighed 115. It got so hot that we couldn’t fly the airplanes because they couldn’t be serviced. Physical training was canceled, which the Army never does, but it just was miserable. That’s where I learned how to drink iced tea. We were out on the gunnery range and they had a big wash-tub there and they’d throw 100 pound cakes of ice in there and then throw the tea in there. Then you— at break time— you took a canteen cup and elbowed your way up to the wash-tub to get yourself a cold drink. �Interviewer: “What unit were you ultimately attached to?” At that time we were still in the training mode so it wasn't a unit so much. From there we went to Lincoln, Nebraska where we became assigned to a crew. There was a pilot, a co-pilot, and all the other elements and jobs assigned. The way it turned out, I’ve been trained as a nose gunner. Come to find out they had two nose gunners, so they didn’t have any turret guns. [With] my enthusiasm I said, “Well I’ll do that.” I didn’t realize that was going to mean considerably more hours training to use the ball turrets. It’s not claustrophobic for me, it was just the idea of being isolated that bothered me a little bit, but all my work and worry was mitigated when we went to England because the Second Air Division had decided to take out the ball turrets. So, I became a waist gunner which was much better. I knew what was going on as a waist gunner because I could see more than the pilot or anyone else. Although, statistically the waist gunners suffered the highest casualty rate of any position on the airplane, which I didn’t learn until later. It wouldn’t have much difference because you’re there. You’re either going to make it or break it. (9:27). Interviewer: “Do you remember arriving at your base in England and where was this base located?” Well first let me say that we flew overseas. We picked up a brand new B-24 and flew— we picked it up at Topeka, Kansas and flew it to Grenier Field, New Hampshire. Then on our way overseas we flew to Goose Bay, Labrador [and] Bluey Islet, Newfoundland. Then, from there to Iceland— and because of the weather we spent two glorious weeks in Iceland— and flew onto Wales. From Wales we left our airplane, were picked up by transport, and taken to another supply base for a few days. We were assigned to the 446 Bomb Group in Bungie, Norwich which is [in] East Anglia, sort of northeast from London. Interviewer: “Could you describe your living conditions at your base?” It was the usual barracks with the cots. What was different from the barracks in the states was they had three little charcoal stoves and the mattresses, instead of being all one piece, there were three different separate pieces— they were called biscuits and they were always separating while you slept, and you sagged down in between the biscuits. But, it was fine. It wasn’t a hardship at all. I didn’t feel that it was bad. (11:22). Interviewer: “How many missions did you fly, and over what period of time?” We arrived in England in January and we started flying, I suppose, in March. We only flew ten missions and the war ended. I flew— the last mission that the 8th Air Force flew on April 25, 1945 to Salzburg, Germany. It was my second trip— or our second trip to Salzburg, which is in �Southern Germany bordering the Alps. So we flew ten missions from March, no maybe it was February to April 25. We were flying quite regularly, so we would have had our 30 missions in pretty soon if the war had not ended. Interviewer: “Do you remember or could you list specific or typical mission targets or objectives?” Well as the war was winding down, the Air Force was asked to concentrate on transportation; which would be the trains, the synthetic gasoline, and airfields. Really, the way it turned out afterwards, if the United States–– or the Allies–– had concentrated on those targets the war might have ended earlier because the railroads were rebuilt over the next few days and were in operation at night; but the bridges, the airfields, and particularly the oil and the ersatz gasoline. They couldn’t move without the oil, and they produced just as many airplanes when the war was ending as they did at the start of the war–– some 8,000 units–– but they didn’t have enough fuel or enough pilots to fly them. They couldn’t practice, they couldn’t teach anybody to fly the Me262, which was a wonderful airplane–– 100 miles faster than the P-51–– and it was fortunate for us that they didn’t because it would have devastated the bomber train. (14:17). Interviewer: “Could you describe your duties during the mission? For example, what tasks did you perform, what were the problems encountered, and how do you feel your job contributed to your bomb group’s success?” I was trained as an armorer and I was an armored gunner for the group for the crew. A lot of the training for armor was taken over by the ground crew, so my duties didn’t involve the installation of the guns or anything with the gun barrels because the ground crew did that. I did the distributing of the escape packets and the rations that we would use if we had to bail out. Primarily, my biggest job–– the most responsible job–– was arming the bombs, which was the method of putting in arming wires attached to the bomb racks and taking out the cotter pins. In the tail fuse they had a propeller [which] was held in place by a cotter pin. My job was to collect all the cotter pins so I could show the pilot afterwards that I had–– that the bombs were armed when they left the airplane–– then [to] insert the wires. In one particular mission–– the weather was always bad and in this mission it was bad. As we approached 10,000 feet–– we had to go on oxygen at 11,000 [feet]–– I was told to go ahead and arm the bombs, which I did. I [had] just sat down and in about 15 minutes the pilot said, “The mission is off, go put the cotter pins back in.” By that time we’re passing towards 11,000 feet–– it gets a little bit cold and you can’t take the cotter pins out with your gloves on, and you can’t have an oxygen mask there. I was one of those people who–– I required my oxygen before 11,000 feet–– I felt better with that. I put the cotter pins back in, took out the arming wires, and put the carbons back in. Then went back to the waist and sat down and in ten minutes I was told the mission was on again, take the cotter pins out, put the arming wires in. This time it’s close to 11,000 feet and it’s getting colder because this was �still in the wintertime or springtime. I did that, collected my cotter pins and sat down again and it wasn’t ten minutes more and I was told to put the cotter pins back in. By that time the cotter pins looked like a snake–– they were bent out of shape, I couldn't get them in the holes, it was getting cold, and you had to be careful because desperation started to take over and you couldn’t let the crew down. I said, “I’ve got to do this,” and the cotter pins kept dropping on the bomb bay and then I’d have to move over and I couldn’t reach it with one hand, so I’d have to reach it with two and that means propellers start turning. Just by force of will I was able to get those bent cotter pins for the third time back in the tail fuse. What made it difficult was they were having a sort of cluster bombs–– they weren’t large bombs. It might have been 250 pounds or not over 500 pounds and they had the tail fins, and they’re sharp and you have to get your hand down and around. You know, you just say, “I’ve got to do this. There’s no substitution for failure. You gotta do it.” I can’t call up the pilot and say, “Hey, I can’t do this.” You would never think of doing that. It was done and I went back and sat down and at that moment I would have given up a week’s, or better yet, a month’s pay for a pair of three dollar Sears pliers to straighten those things up. We proceeded to turn around and come back to base, and the worst part about it is we didn’t get any mission credit for all that. We just had another nice long airplane ride. (19:33). Interviewer: “Could you tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences of your missions flown over Europe?” Well the one I just described was the main one. There never were any real scary situations. We did lose an engine over a target. We came back on three engines–– I think that was more due to engine malfunction than through enemy action–– and we had to pull out and fly alongside the bomber stream. On our way back it was uneventful. The fighters came over and let us know that they were watching us and taking care of us. Then another time we had a bomb rack for some cluster bombs hit our wing and it was embedded in the wing, so it caused a little drag but didn’t, fortunately, hit an engine so we were alright there. We didn’t have to fall out of the formation there. Looking at the other airplanes and seeing the flak that someone had to go through–– we really were fortunate. The anti-aircraft guns couldn’t fire at everybody, so they’d either pick your group or the group behind you [or] the group ahead of you. The same is true of fighter interceptions. We’d get an alert, the pilots would say, “Okay. Gunners be on alert, the group ahead of us is experiencing fighter attacks.” We’d get all ready and there wouldn’t be any–– they’d hit the group behind us. There were a lot of groups or planes that weren’t so fortunate. I remember seeing the battery of four anti-aircraft guns tracking a B-17 group, I believe it was, about maybe half to three-quarters of a mile flying alongside of us. The last plane in the formation–– there’s this burst of four, fire would be a little closer each time and then we turned for our initial point to make our bomb run, so I never did learn to see what happened–– it didn’t look good because there was the flak which was very heavy. It was more of a danger than fighters were at that time because of the Luftwaffe was beaten except for the Me-262 attacks. A crew member and a bunk member–– not a member of our crew, but another gunner–– he did get �credit for shooting one down that flew in his formation. I wasn’t on that mission but it was one or two days before or after mine. (23:06). Interviewer: “Was there something special you did for good luck?” No. I really don’t believe in those things, but we always went to mass for the Chaplin. It didn’t make any difference to me whether it was Catholic or Protestant. We went and you just tried to be alert and do the best you can. I don’t think luck has something to do with after the event, but in getting ready for it luck plays no part of it. Interviewer: “Were you awarded any medals or citations and if so, how did you get them?” My service time was pretty uneventful. Like many others we got the Air Medal and that was the extent of it. We had it very easy compared to the men who went over in 43 and 42. They were writing the book because they went along there. Our group went over in 40 through 43 and had one of the best safety records of any group. That was partly due to the tight formations we flew and as a tribute to that our group was chosen to lead the Eighth Air Force on D-Day because of bombing accuracy and known for our on-time performances which means that we were formed and ready to go with the proper time and reached the rendezvous point at the proper time. It’s a tribute to the crews, at that time, that we did that. (25:26). Interviewer: “During downtime how often did you or were you able to stay in touch with your family?” Five letters, that was all. Fortunately, I didn’t have any girlfriends and I wasn’t married, and I wasn’t even close to being married, so I didn’t have any girl problems about not hearing from them or any “Dear John” letters. I was just a young boy having a great adventure and I can talk about it and I’m proud of the service–– a lot of it–– and of course it is because I was not hurt. I didn’t suffer, I know some other people did. They don’t want to talk about it and I understand that, but it was a significant part of my life that I remember. I didn’t win the war by any stretch of imagination but–– Interviewer: “What did you think of officers or the fellow soldiers that you served with?” I’d say the Air Force officers were good. One part about it, they were highly trained and therefore well educated and did their jobs well. Not everybody in the crew was a bosom pal of mine. Seems like we were all from different states, but the pilot and I got along very well. We had a relationship after the war until he passed on. One interesting factor about that [is] his grandson never knew his grandfather, so he wanted to learn more about what his grandfather did in the war and he was smart enough to figure out how to do that. He went ahead and on an �internet site, got an email address, and this is luck. He went ahead and emailed this individual over there and wanted to know, “Do you know Alan Senior? He was with Bob Drake’s crew.” And he–– out of all the people he could have had to see his email, was an English man who I’d met in England and he and his wife had come over and visited our house here. He wrote back and he said, “Of course I know Alan Senior. Here’s his address, his telephone number,” and that young man–– Michael Anthony–– I’m his surrogate grandfather. I just recently came back from attending his wedding at Jekyll Island, Georgia and he and the family just treated Joyce and myself like family. He is a wonderful young man, just wonderful. He’s a former Eagle Scout, graduated from Valdosta College in Georgia. The whole family is, you know, they wanted me to tell them about their father. There’s a son and two daughters, so at Jekyll Island–– I’ve previously sent them quite a few pictures–– but it just made me feel good that I could help them connect. (29:36). Interviewer: “How would you perceive the American attitude towards the local civilian population?” In England it was just wonderful. The local people were somewhat standoffish because they’re more conservative than we are, but after a while they liked us. We shared some of our rations with them–– some good times with them. If I’ve got time I’d like to just tell you a story, and it’s another coincidence. When I was in about the tenth grade, the English teacher said we needed to get pen pals. I got a pen pal from a girl from England. So, we corresponded back and forth and I told her that with the war, I might come over to England, you know. I might be over there in the Air Force and the way it came about, I did–– I went to meet her. She lived in Todmorden which is up near Manchester in the industrial section. Her name was Florence Britain, if you can believe that, and we just had a wonderful weekend. I took one of my crew members–– the other waist gunner–– with me and I had somehow gotten a box of Whitman’s chocolate, some lipsticks, and some stockings and took them up there and met Florence and her mother and her father and sister. We had a candlelight dinner because of the blackout and Mrs. Britain the next morning–– we stayed in a pub–– so after breakfast she came by and picked us up and walked us down to the market holding my arm. She introduced us and she said, “This is Florence’s friend from America, Alan.” It was just a wonderful experience. Who would have ever thought that that would have happened, you know. That’s like the lottery odds are now. But, that was another nice experience that I had and I corresponded with them when I got back to the States and then we’d started drifting apart. (32:17). Interviewer: “In general, with your interactions with other British civilians, how did you perceive their attitude towards you and your crewmates?” There was some rivalry there and it was partly our fault. We had, you know, the old expression. We were overpaid, over sexed, over there, that was part of it. A lot of it probably was accidental, �I don’t think any of us tried to do that. I know my friends didn’t. On one of our one or two or three day passes we had in London, you’d go into a pub and there’d always be somebody there wanting to challenge you somewhat. In fact, I got in a taxi–– another crew member and myself–– and there were two Americans in there and they got after us. They said, “You damn guys bombed us,” and named some city and I said, “Well, it’s really hard to tell at 20,000 feet who’s down there and your leaders–– your officers–– should have been in touch with the Allies to tell them ‘Don’t bomb here.’ You folks did a great job, you moved so fast, and we had our orders. We dropped the bombs there as ordered.” Needless to say we were dying to get out of that taxi. I don’t think they really bought my story very well but that’s understandable as well. (34:07). Interviewer: “In addition to some of the stories you’ve told us, could you describe any more memorable stories of events in England during the war?” No. I think that covers it. We were all very happy, of course, when the war ended and then we started to think about going back to the States to be trained as B-29 crewmen to go to the Pacific. Which–– you know–– that’s the way the war is. As we went from–– we got a three day furlough then we reported to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for reassignment. While we were there, of course, they dropped the two atomic bombs, the war ended, and we were dispersed all over the United States. I went to Marshfield, California and had some little job. I was a part of another group–– we safety wired a part on a B-29 engine, you know. It was just a make-work type of thing. Then the point system came along and I argued a little bit and they agreed that I had enough points to get out, so I got out in December. I remember walking–– I had my barracks bag and headed down towards the train station–– and I walked past a restaurant and they were playing “I’ll Be Home for Christmas” and sure enough, I was. (35:49). Interviewer: “Do you recall where you were when–– exactly where you were–– when the war ended?” Do you mean when the bombs were dropped or–– Interviewer: “Yes. Or both if you recall.” [When] the bombs were dropped, I was in Sioux Falls, South Dakota waiting for reassignment. That’s when the war ended but the surrender documents were not assigned until September, I believe. Interviewer: “How about V-E Day?” An interesting sidelight to that–– the war ended on, I think, May 8. May 9 we were allowed to make a tourist flight, I guess you would say, to Germany in some of the bombed out cities at �maybe 1,000 feet. We flew down the Rhine River and I could look out my waist window and I didn’t see any sky, I just saw the bank of the Rhine River–– we were that low. It was so interesting, I just wish I’d had a video camera or could’ve taken some pictures because there’s so much you’re seeing that you can assimilate at all, but it was wonderful. We saw planes that had been forced landed, we saw where there had been tracks of big tank fights, trenches. The devastation of the German cities was terrible, just terrible. (37:34). Interviewer: “Did you work or go back to school after the war?” I came back and started immediately to go to school and everybody had to have a part-time job doing something. I did that, went to school three days a week, and then I got married somewhere along the line, and got my degree–– I’m trying to think of the year. It was probably 1950. Interviewer: “Did you receive the benefits from the GI Bill and go out to school?” Yes, and that was a great benefit. I think also for our country because it raised the educational level of the average man/woman in the street several notches over what it would’ve been. I was the first part of my family to go to college and graduate. My dad went to the ninth grade, my mother finished high school and was a rural teacher for one semester I think. I think that was one of the great things that happened, the GI Bill. (39:05). Interviewer: “Did your participation in the war contribute to your making this decision beyond the GI Bill? Did it motivate you to want to go back to school in any way?” Oh, yes. [When] I was in high school I had been a very poor student and I wanted an opportunity to do better. I realized that I needed it to go on and do all these grandiose things that 20/21-yearold people have. Interviewer: “What did you go on to do as a career, after the war?” Well, with a degree in Psychology–– which was a waste of time–– I went into the property casualty insurance business and stayed in it all of my adult life. Interviewer: “Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or the Military in general?” Well it would have too. If you had any sensibilities at all, it gives me an appreciation for the people who are in the Military–– even today, particularly today. Nothing was more saddening to me than what the Vietnam boys went through. The American people should be ashamed of themselves for what they did to those veterans. �Interviewer: “What are the experiences that stand out after all this time, that you’re most proud of?” (40:56). My perseverance to get into the Army–– the Air Force. If you want something badly enough and [you] make a commitment, it can happen. Although I didn’t go on to be the pilot that I wanted to be, I did the next best thing [which] is being a crew member. So I made my donation or participation. I think that, to me, is personally what I am proud of. That I did my job the best I could. Interviewer: “Is there anything you’d like to add that we have not covered in this interview?” I think we’ve covered quite a lot. It’s just that’s the most significant part of my life. I’m proud of what I did, I’m not bragging about it, but I’m proud that I opted to do what I had to do. (42:57). Interviewer: “We’ll conclude this interview, Alan. I’d just like to state, before we kill the camera, that Ryan and I would like to thank you for taking the time for the interview and we appreciate everything you’ve done in this country and because you were actually in World War II, we enjoy the freedoms from the fruits of your labor. Thank you very much sir.” You’re welcome. I think at my age I realized that and how times have changed so much, and that our great country is not being–– its virtues are not being taught, explained, expounded and it just saddens me to think how this country is being destroyed from within. Weakened. Interviewer: “You know, what amazes me is [that] I can only pretend to know what life was like in 1943 because I wasn’t there, but I know it was a lot different from what I’ve read and heard. I think about you being a young man back in 1943 and being thrust into this great conflict, and going through all the things you went through and everything you experienced. One thing that I’m always shocked at is how were you guys able to settle back into civilian life after experiencing all that? I mean, you were flying in B-24s across Europe in part of the strategic Air Force. How? It always amazed me that how could you come back and settle in after such–– having to participate in something like that? Was it difficult for you or did you just take right to it?” (44:54). I never even thought about it. You just did it. I think growing up in the 40s was probably the greatest experience that anybody could have. Life in the 40s, in a small town, I am so thankful for that. We had one high school, a little town, and friendships. The friendships we keep today. We’re having our 60th high school [reunion], if you believe that. 60th high school reunion. I �can’t believe I’m that old until I look in the mirror every morning. But it’s–– I’m not much at conventions/reunions and all that. We never had a high school reunion till 1993 which would be 50 years. So I agonized about that, over going. I went and did you know that some of the people that were my friends–– because we had a small school–– after 15/20 minutes it was like I never went away. One of the folks came up and he said, “You know, watching you and Hank talk over there, it’s like you had never been away.” And I hadn’t seen him for 50 years. But those values–– and you know, that’s multiplied around the United States I’m sure–– but the things we did in the fun. In fact, I’m going to–– in the last week of March–– I’ve got a condo that we’ve rented in Hilton Head, South Carolina and three couples are going to be there. (47:10). Interviewer: “That’s great.” One was in the Army, one was in the Navy, and the other one is my cousin. He wasn’t in anything. He was in the service but he didn’t get any combat or anything. It was just a great time in the 40s. In fact, I’ve been asked to work-up a program for the museum. Fort Bend County Museum on life in the 40s. I’ve been a little hesitant to do all that. I’ve got the research done, now I just have to write it. One of the things that we did participate in as a member of the Confederate Air Force [was] Texas Southern University here had an aviation program for four years, I believe, and we were asked to provide speakers and I spoke on the development of air power from World War I through World War II. That was interesting. I had to do some research on that myself and it’s usually the case that the speaker learns more than the students do from listening. I did that until the program was–– they lost their funding for it. But, that was good and some of those young people could care less but one or two of them, I think, were really interested, which is about average. I try to teach my son about the importance of being responsible for your own behavior and your decisions. You make a bad decision, you work like hell to correct it or learn from it. His son–– I’ve got videos of the war and books. I said, “When Corey gets to the age of being a junior in high school, I want you to play these things and talk it over with him because he’s not going to get it in the school books.” He’ll think World War II might be a paragraph like it is now. (49:32). Interviewer: “That’s true. It’s interesting you mentioned that. One of the primary motivating factors for me to get involved and try to record and archive living history, you know, was the birth of my two sons and hoping that at least one of them will appreciate history and the lessons we must learn from it–– as much as I do. I was thinking the same thing that you were thinking. It’s like, what can I show them? What resources can I direct them towards? I’m hoping that someday if he really wants to learn the real deal, as they say, he can access information like this at the Library of Congress and get a more meaningful picture of the real people who participated in World War II and in other foreign wars. �Don’t overlook the fact that there are some good videos that he can look at, and some good books that will direct the thinking. I must have 200 books out there and I told my son, “If you ever place any of those in the garage sale for 25 or 50 cents, I’m going to come back and slap the hell out of you.” Interviewer: “You’re going to haunt him.” (50:53). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeniorA2363V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Senior, Alan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-02 Title A name given to the resource Senior, Alan (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Alan Senior was born May 19, 1925 and grew up in a small town outside of Buffalo, New York. Senior was just a junior in high school when the bomb was dropped at Pearl Harbor, leading to questions about what was going to happen to him as he approached military age. Around the time Senior turned 18, he enlisted in the Voluntary Induction Program due to his dreams of becoming a flyer, therefore, joining the Air Cadets to guarantee his spot with the Air Force. Senior attended basic training in Greensboro, North Carolina where he didn’t quite make it through the Air Cadets program. Instead, Senior became an aerial gunner. This is when Senior went down to Laredo, Texas for gunnery school. Finally, after months of training Senior and his crew headed overseas to England where they were stationed. During their time in England, Senior and his crew were only able to fly ten missions before the war ended. Due to his time with the Air Force, Senior received the Air Medal and his crew was recognized for their particularly strong safety record. After being sent home from England, Senior went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for reassignment. However, this is when the final bombs were dropped and the war thus “ended.” Eventually, after Senior was discharged from the service he went back to school and pursued a degree in Psychology. He then worked in the property casualty insurance business and stayed there for his entire adult life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lupo, Tony (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dfc2dc594fd78d937086d165d9336977.jpg 686ae6a1250d5dd7055841377b3a95b2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. PR6005.R698 S47 1898 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0249 Title A name given to the resource Senorita Montenar Description An account of the resource Binding of Senorita Montenar, by Archer P. Crouch, published by Harper Brothers Publishers, 1898. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1898 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2172fe2f6fd68cfa9c0cdb25808004c8.pdf 82f673885c37fdec1090b3b470080aaa PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sententiarum libri IV [folium 122] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_122Lombardus1491 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Peter Lombard, Bishop of Paris, approximately 1100-1160 Description An account of the resource One leaf from Sententiarum libri IV by Petrus Lombardus. Printed in Nuremberg by Anton Koberger after March 2, 1491. Illustrated with red rubricated initials. [GW M32527; ISTC ip00486000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Nuremberg: Anton Koberger Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1491 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4218586edd7d0838431ae39e4a3c858.pdf 58eb1f2888d42901a0b2620deb7f5411 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_LGBTQ_2017_Dragtivism-in-the-Midwest-Dr-Jae-Basiliere.pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-22 Title A name given to the resource sequins for social change: dragtivism in the midwest Description An account of the resource Flyer with title, and information of the event, including the date, time and place. Subject The topic of the resource Sexual minorities Community centers Drag shows Gay liberation movement Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Rainbow Resource Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75f28afb70a9f50ee0b4fc5e7bf87436.m4v 80ce4cb4cddda57ab8633fcda6c85c56 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a662b20ecfc4c8e12f156ff9b880ac7b.pdf 1a9d8ad4884230cf3d8e330ea64f10b7 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW EDWARD J. SERAFINO Born: January 16, 1948 Resides: Interviewed by: Terry Wainwright, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 24, 2014 Interviewer: Today is November 9. 2009 and we’re at Lake Michigan College in Benton Harbor, Michigan and we’re talking to Edward J. Serafino. We are interviewing for the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and my name is Terry Wainwright, lest we forget. Let’s just start at the beginning. What is the year of your birth? I was born on January 16th 1948. Interviewer: What branch of service were you in? I was in the Marines. Interviewer: What was the highest rank that you reached? I was an E4 when I got out. Interviewer: Could you tell us a little bit about your family and your original background before. Well, I was born and raised in a small town just west of Chicago and I had three younger sisters and my father worked in construction. My mother was just a house woman, a housewife. 1:10 Interviewer: What high school did you go to? I went to Morton West in Berwyn. Interviewer: When did you join the military? 1 �I joined on a hundred and twenty delayed program they had going, so I signed up in May and I went in right out of high school in August. Interviewer: What made you chose the Marines? I wanted to be a draft dodger, so I joined the Marines, and I knew I was going to Vietnam and I wanted the best training I could have, so I could come home. Interviewer: Could you pick what work you had in the military? I was an 18-33. It’s an amphibious assault vehicle called an Amtrac. It’s roughly thirty feet long, ten feet high, and ten feet wide. 2:05 And has a top speed of about ten miles an hour on hard packed, and about two miles an hour in the water, and it floats. Interviewer: Do you remember the first few days in the Marines, what was it like and what was it like during basic training? Well, I remember going down town and they put you in this big room and you stand around and wait. They took us on a bus and took us to O’Hare Airport and it was the first time I was ever on a plane. Our next stop was San Diego. We got off the plane and there were two drill instructors standing there, very nice gentlemen, and they talked real nice to us until we got in the bus. We got in the bus and the good times ended. 3:02 We got to MC area D, stood on the yellow footprints and went in there and got a haircut. All twenty of us walked through the barber shop in about ten minutes. Then they walked you into different rooms, they give you a yellow T-shirt, a pair of pants that almost fit, shoes and socks, skivvies, they marched all twenty of us into the shower. You came out of the shower and put all of your civilian clothes in a box, put this other stuff on, they gave you a blanket, sheets, pillowcase, and then you finally went to bed about four in the morning. You get up at six and you start over again. 2 �Interviewer: What was boot camp like? I was in pretty good shape when I went to boot camp, because I played sports in high school, and it was rough. 4:03 A lot of calisthenics, a lot of classrooms you go to, different things you learn, how to shoot a rifle, how to march, how to pay attention, how to just grow up. Interviewer: How long did that last? Nine weeks, and then right out of boot camp they give you what you’re going to do in the service and then yo go to ITR, which was two weeks and then yo went home on leave for twenty days. Then I went back to California, learned what an Amtrac was , how to drive it, graduated from that in thirty days, went to staging, and then I went to Vietnam. Interviewer: Do you remember anything about your trip to Vietnam? 5:00 They took us on school busses to El Toro Air Force Base. We got there in the afternoon and we all went to the theater and the movie we went to see was Born Free. The next morning we got up, they had a civilian airplane and took us to Okinawa. In Okinawa we got our shots, we gave blood, collected our uniforms there and then went to Da Nang and from Da Nang you just went to your unit you were with. Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam, what did you think? It was like a town that was a hundred years old. You didn’t see any street lights; there was no electricity where we were at, no ice, no anything. 6:10 Interviewer: You said you went from there, further north, and where did you go from there? 3 �From Da Nang I went to Dong Ha where I was stationed with a four deuce [4.2-inch] mortar battery for a while, because they needed more people there than they did in amtracs. From there I went to Camp Carroll. Interviewer: Stepping back a little bit, what was your job in Dong Ha? In Dong Ha it was in a four deuce mortar battery where I worked with a supply person for two weeks and then they had an outpost with about, I believe it was, ten 4.2 mortars, and I ended up out there with them. 7:00 We’d just shoot the mortar at different areas they’d have a shootout at night. I don’t remember where the base was at, the only way in was by Huey gunship, you’d go to an airport and they’d put you on a Huey gunship, they’d take you in and drop you off and you’d just do that, and then you’d have to stand security at night during the monsoons where it was so dark you couldn’t see anything. Interviewer: How many people would be at this outpost? There would be three of us in there, two would be awake and one would be sleeping. Interviewer: How long did you stay there? All night, and you’d do that, maybe, one or two days a week, and different people would just rotate with you. 8:01 If you were not doing that then you’d be on gun watch all night, or if a fire mission came in you’d have to drop the rounds into the tube and shoot them. Interviewer: You said you went to Camp Carroll, what did you do there? Well, they needed bodies up there, so they had us digging foxholes, bunkers and filling sandbags—moving sandbags and then we’d stand security at night in there, also. That was the first time we ever got hit—mortars and rockets, it’s like a beautiful 4th of July 4 �coming in. You see nothing but red and blue and silver sparkling things going over your head at night. Interviewer: Were there a lot of casualties? There were quite a few up there, but not a lot. 9:00 Interviewer: You still hadn’t had a chance to use your specialty? No, then from there we went to Quang Tri. They got over run, so they put more marines over there to stand security with the ARVNS, and then finally I got in the amtracs. They took us down by an LST to Cocoa Beach down by Phu Bai/Hue, and from there we went five miles over the river to a cemetery between three villages. We stayed there for about a month and a half as security. Interviewer: What was it like there? It was very boring, you would just stand security. We made a couple trips with the Amtracs and on one of these trips we were starting to get mortared. 10:03 With the AmTracs not moving too fast we had to call in for an air strike and they brought two jets in. They came in so fast and so low, dropping napalm that nobody knew where they were coming from, or how they got there. But when you go over the top of the Amtrac and you see those silver canisters come rolling out from the bottom, you know they’re close. Then they come back on the radios and tell you, “you better duck, here we come again”, and they did. Interviewer: I see where you actually lived in an active cemetery? Yes, one day—one Sunday every month, the Vietnamese, they were allowed to come on our base and bring food for the dead. 11:05 They would set up a little blanket on the grave and put vegetables and fruit on the grave, so the person that passed could eat. We 5 �always helped them out with that and made sure they ate good. From there, that platoon was the third platoon, they were going back to Okinawa and since I didn’t have enough time to go back to Okinawa with them, they transferred me to the fourth platoon. From the fourth platoon I went back to Cua Viet again and from there we went to Cam Lo, parked in another cemetery for a month, and from there we went to Con Thien. 12:00 We’re up in Con Thien to haul supplies, because it was so muddy up there you couldn’t get trucks to move, so we had to haul ammunition, water and food, and take the water tank down to the creek and fill that up and bring that back every day. One day up in Con Thien they had a bunch of infantrymen who got shot up real bad. They had ten, or fifteen wounded, ten, or fifteen, dead and they called in for helicopters to medevac them out, they tried and they couldn’t get them out because they were getting shot at, so we had to put three doctors, the corpsman and a preacher inside the amtrac and take them out, and pick-up the wounded and dead. That was the day we were driving through the high elephant grass. 13:03 I was driving and you sit up in the front corner, and I looked down and I ran over one of our bombs that didn’t go off and for some reason it did not blow again. A few minutes later there was a Vietcong lying in the grass with a gun, I saw him at the last minute and ran over him, I couldn’t avoid him. Interviewer: That was the only one in that area that you knew of? The only one that we knew of, yes, and then we went up there and found out where they were at and we started loading up the wounded and the dead. I was helping them carry the wounded on stretchers back to the amtrac. Went back to Con Thien, the helicopter’s there waiting for us and they took them from us. 14:00 Interviewer: Were you under fire at that time, or was the squad at that time? 6 �We were under a lot of fire at that time. Interviewer: During that whole period? Yes, and months later I was ready to come home and I was in Da Nang, and this fellow Marine comes up and grabs my hand and shakes my hand and he says, “Thank you”, and I said, “I don’t know you”, and he said, “Yes you do, I was one of the wounded you carried. I told myself I’d never forget your face”. Interviewer: You were telling me about a priest that was with you? The priest that was at Con Thien with us his name was Father Lyons and we had our amtracs parked right next to their makeshift hospital up there, and Father Lyons used to come into the amtrac with us and talk to us at night and enjoy having C rations with us. 15:07 I was explaining to them that I was born and raised in a town in Illinois called Lyons, and he looks at me and he says, “I used to be the preacher in the church in Riverside”, which was three or four miles from my house. Interviewer: How long were you in Con Thien? I believe I was there for about a month and a half. We were there for the Marine Corps birthday and they did us a favor, they brought in real food for us that day, but the weather was so bad they couldn’t get the helicopters in right away and all the food went bad and we all got sick up there. 16:03 They had to fly in medication for us, so we could still operate. We also spent Thanksgiving up there too. Interviewer: What was Thanksgiving like? They brought fresh food in for us again too, but I don’t think any of us ate it. Nothing against the cooks, but the C rations were much better. Interviewer: Was that what the food was normally? 7 �Yes, we carried a lot of C rations, and we did not have mess halls too often, because we were out in different locations with the amtracs. Interviewer: What did you think of the food in the C rations? You got your favorites and your ham and lima beans were one of the best. You took the ham out very gently and you threw it as far as you could. 17:02 You took the lima beans and you mixed them up with a little hot sauce, cheese and crackers, heated them up and they were good. The apricots, you never ate. Interviewer: So you get to be a real cook there. Yes you do, and you learn what’s good and what’s not. Interviewer: Did you have much contact with the local people? Most of the time no--because anybody that came near the fence knew the wires were free game to shoot, and when we were in the cemetery that was time when people could come through us and that was about it. Interviewer: So, were you pretty much stationary? Did you go out with your AmTrac on any missions? We would take the amtracs out every third day. 18:01 One day we would drive a patrol and the next day we would walk the patrol and the third day we would work on the AmTracs. If we drove, we’d take the other people from our platoon and we’d drop them off at one side of a village and we would drive to the other side of the village and sit there and wait for them to come to us. If anybody came out we’d have to check their ID cards to see if they were north or South Vietnamese. If they didn’t have an ID card, they were north and we took them back to the base. Interviewer: How many would go on a mission? 8 �There would be about twenty of us. Interviewer: What is the capacity of the amtrac? I believe it would hold thirty on the inside, but you never rode on the inside, you always rode on the top, because on the bottom of the AmTrac was all the fuel. 19:05 It held almost four hundred gallons of fuel, of gas, so if you hit a bomb it would just explode and burn everything up inside. Interviewer: How safe was it when you were in the amtrac then? One .762 a round would go through the side of it, so they weren’t that safe. Interviewer: Did one ever do that? We had quite a few that sunk and burned, and got blown up by different mines and bombs. If you were lucky and hit a small bomb, you’d just blow the track off of it. Interviewer: What weapons did the amtrac have? What did it have to fight back? We had one thirty caliber machine gun that would be mounted on the front and it had a three man crew. 20:04 You had a driver, a machine gunner and a crew chief. Interviewer: So where did you go after Con Thien? From Can Tien we went back to Cau Viet for the first of the year, January of 1968, and then we went aboard a ship. We were part of a BLT battalion landing troop. They loaded us up on the Cleveland, which was an LPD. We were supposed to take the amtracs and swim them out to the ship, but the waves were so high they had to bring mike boats in. They put the amtrac on the boat, took that out to the ship, unloaded it, and came back. 21:00 I was the crew chief of four zero, so that meant that I was the first on off the ship, the last one on. We finally got on the ship, got the amtrac tied down with the dogs and this officer comes up to me and said, “How did you like the Navy food?” I 9 �said, “I don’t know sir, we just got on here and we’re ready to go back to the amtrac and have some more C rations for supper”. He said, “No you’re not”, and he took us to the officers’ mess and fed us that night. That was the first time in months that we had milk that was cold and not powdered. From there we went to the Philippine Islands, we were supposed to be there for a month with the battalion landing troop and that ended up to be about four or five days. 22:00 Then they had us load back up and go back and made a landing in Cau Viet when the Tet started. We stayed on the beach for another couple weeks, the ship came in, and my Lieutenant knew I was getting short, so he had me get back on the ship to go back to Da Nang and back home. Interviewer: You said you were in country in early 1968. Were you there during Tet? Just the start of it Interviewer: What was that like? There were a lot more mortars and rockets that came into our base. Interviewer: It was more active? Yes, and we always listened to Hanoi Hannah and she said, “I will have New Year’s dinner in your mess hall”, but she didn’t. 23:00 Interviewer: What other kind of entertainment did you have? I saw one USO show. On the night before I was ready to leave for Da Nang--that was the USO show we saw. We were so far north that Bob Hope wouldn’t even send us a card. We didn’t have any up there, we didn’t have week-ends, and it was just another day to work. Interviewer: You mentioned about Bob Hope. 10 �When I got out of the service, I went back to the night club I use to work at in my small town, and I was in there working one night and Bob Hope and a couple of his friends walked in there. The waiter knew I was back from Vietnam and he told Bob Hope. 24:01 Bob Hope called me over by him to say “hello” and he asked me how great his shows were and I told him, “I don’t know, you wouldn’t even send us a card”. He shook my hand and laughed. Interviewer: Any other things that were memorable in the usual happenings that comes to mind? Well, the worst thing that happened to me when I left Vietnam, I was in one of their local watering holes in my home town and the police were looking for me that night. So, when I went back home I went to the police station and they informed me that my driver got killed right after I left Nam. 25:02 His parents wanted me to come up and see him, they were up in Palmyra, Wisconsin and his name was Chuck Duel. Interviewer: What was the best experience you had with regards to Vietnam and your military service? When we left the Philippine Islands with the amtracs--we had them—the ship was parked out, maybe, a quarter mile in the bay and we had to take our amtracs and swim them out to the ship. If anybody went to the Philippine Islands, especially Subic Bay, you know what’s there. There are a lot of taverns and a lot of loose women. 26:00 We wanted to see who could buy the most women’s skivvies to hang on the antennas when we went back to the ship. That was great—one of the Colonels or Generals from Subic Bay wanted to have his wife and daughters watch the amtracs go back to the ship. He did not 11 �care for our flags that were flying off the antennas and we ended up with no liberty for thirty days off the ship. Interviewer: While you were in Vietnam, how did you keep in touch with your family back home? We would just write letters, and what was nice about Vietnam, you never had stamps. 27:01 We use to just write across the top where a stamp would go, “free’. That was— and being away from our base most of the time, sometimes it would take a month before we got a letter, and then you’d get a whole stack of them. Interviewer: Were you awarded any medals, or citations? No, not that I can think of Interviewer: Tell me about your trip home from Vietnam, what was it like? What kind of experience did you have? We went back to Okinawa. We ended up landing there—well, first when we were aboard the ship, the Cleveland, they got my records and then they said, “Okay, we’re not going to Da Nang”, so I flew on a small helicopter from the Cleveland to Iwo Jima. 28:11 Before we got on you’re standing there with an envelope with you papers in it. They tell you that if you lose your papers you’re not going home. So, you’re sitting on this airplane, this helicopter, with no doors on it and they fly you from one ship to the other. Then we went on to Iwo Jima, from that they went on to Da Nang. They took all of our paperwork and put it on a small boat and said, “Okay, climb down the rope ladder to the other boat”, and they’re going up and down. When they say, “jump”, jump. 29:02 then we got into Da Nang and they said, “Your plane is not leaving for a day and a half”. That was the night we saw the USO show and they played the Marine Corps. Hymn and 12 �everybody stood up. We went back to the airport, sat on wooden benches and left Da Nang. We got to Okinawa and we were there for six hours, got our sea bags, got on a civilian plane and went back to El Toro. We landed in El Toro and we had a big party waiting for us, maybe five people. 30:03 We walked in this building, sat down, they signed our orders and they said, “If you go to the airport be careful and stay in groups”. We piled in a cab to the airport and we stayed in a group watching people and walking us to different gates. It was three o’clock in the morning and I was by myself, everybody else was gone. I went to the washroom and the next thing I know two guys are trying to push me through the wall, and all of a sudden they were gone. Two guys walked in and started thumping on those two. I said, “Can I stay and help?” They said, “No, get out”, so they threw me out of the washroom. 31:00 I see these guys a half hour later, they were both in the navy and that was their job, to stay at the airport and protect military people. Interviewer: Where did you go from there? From there I went back to Chicago. I stayed home for thirty days, for thirty five days, because I had to get a five day extension to go to my driver funeral. His parents wanted me to be a pallbearer, in uniform, which I did. I came home, drove out to California and I was stationed working in the brick, in Camp Pendleton. From there, I was discharged out of there, and I went back home. 32:00 Interviewer: After leaving the military did you keep in touch with the guys? No, I didn’t, except we had a reunion eleven years ago in a big town called New Town, North Dakota. They have one casino there, it’s Four Bears, and one of the marines that was in our platoon, he was from that tribe and he wanted to have a reunion at the casino. 13 �He said, he was talking to some of us and he said, “When we come home from the war, we meet at this arena”. There is a big hall there and they go there and everybody from the village and the tribe, they come back and they welcome you home. 33:06 He said, “Sometimes it takes two, or three, days before all the food and booze is gone”, so that was it, so he wanted to have the reunion there. So, we had the reunion there, we had a good time and that was the same week they had a Pow Wow, and there had to be over a thousand Indians there. He had it arranged so the thirty of us would carry the colors in for the opening ceremony. So, I tried to get at the end of the line, which I did, we carry the colors in and set them up and as we’re marching in the Indians are coming in behind us in full dress. 34:00 We made a big circle and they were still coming in, so we get out there and all set up and he gets up there and he does his prayers and everything, and he says, “When we were aboard ship we were talking, what happens when these people come home, the bartender might buy them a drink if they’re lucky”. He said, “You will be welcomed home today”, so he excused all the Indians and he said, “Okay, welcome them home”. They start off by having all the old women come up to you, they give you a hug and a kiss and a squeeze and say a couple nice word to you. Then you get the ones that come up and give you a hug and a kiss and a squeeze and say, ”I’m happy you made it home, I wish my son, or husband, would have made it him too”. 35:02 Now you have thirty marines up there with tears running down, and everybody came up and welcomed you home. Indians in full dress, the kids, everybody and it’s one thing I’ll never forget. Interviewer: Did you use the GI Bill at all? 14 �A few months after I got out of the service, I went to work for the telephone company and I used my GI Bill for on the job training, which wasn’t too much, but it helped out back then. Interviewer: So, what kind of an impact do you think being in the marines had on your life? 36:00 I believe they should activate the draft and have everybody join the service. We were sitting in a restaurant one night when--one Sunday morning, me and my wife, on two busy streets and the restaurant was packed. I saw this young girl sitting in a car, this guy jumped off the sidewalk, tried to get in her car and she was smart enough to lock her doors, and then he went and sat on her hood, so she couldn’t move. Nobody from the restaurant would do anything about it, so I just walked out and asked him very nicely to leave and he did. 37:00 I walked back in the restaurant and five or six people came up to me and asked me what I said to him. I said, “If you wanted to know, you would have walked out there too”. Being in the military you’ve got to look out for other people and that’s why I feel I did it. Interviewer: Anything else you would like to say? This is a lot harder than you think it is, being on this side of the chair and I thank you very much, you did a great job. 37:40 15 �16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SerafinoE Title A name given to the resource Serafino, Edward (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Serafino, Edward Description An account of the resource Edward Serafino was born in Illinois in 1948 and enlisted in the Marines Corps right after graduating from high school. They were sent to San Diego for basic training for 9 weeks, which was very rough on him even though he had played many sports in high school. Edward then trained with amphibious vehicles called Amtraks for another 30 days before being shipped to Vietnam. While in Vietnam Edward worked for a while on supplies, guard duty, and then spent most of his time traveling along water ways in the Amtraks. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wainright, Terry (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36937480a90927d7890aa854c3660260.jpg e9be20dcbb69d01a54db48ddf3ae7f91 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_FilmPacks_7_011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1937-04-05 Title A name given to the resource Serapeum Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of the Serapeum ruins in Italy. A circle of columns in a lake is visible in the center of the frame with buildings visible in the background. Subject The topic of the resource Italy Temple of Serapis (Pozzuoli, Italy) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52ce0b02a47a330eff92900f7ad3afae.jpg 02cce465893a1fa3a5365d8670863190 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_LS00352 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1937-04-05 Title A name given to the resource Serapeum looking southwest Description An account of the resource Black and white lantern slide of the Temple of Serapis in Pozzuoli, Italy. Subject The topic of the resource Lantern slides Pozzuoli (Italy) Temple of Serapis (Pozzuoli, Italy) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d5e7b46105a4669616d830b5c0d0b0a.pdf 3233eee38f82f218a83d83adb2e9b5b8 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sermones [folium 23] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_023Biel1499 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Biel, Gabriel Description An account of the resource One leaf of Sermones by Gabriel Biel and edited by Wendelin Steinbach. Printed in Tübingen by Johann Otmar for Fredrich Meynberger in 1499-1500. [GW 4340; ISTC ib00662000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Tübingen: Johann Otmar Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Sermons Biel, Gabriel, d. 1495 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1499/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Steinbach, Wendelin (editor) Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f47154ec94c9ba36b9cb92a6acac95c4.pdf 45301a1383f937453c756cc858082353 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sermones [folium 84] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_084Augustinus1494 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Augustine, Saint, Bishop of Hippo Description An account of the resource One leaf from Sermones by Aurelius Augustinus with additions by Sebastian Brant. I: Sermones ad heremitas; II: Sermones de verbis Domini; III: Sermones de verbis apostoli; IV: Sermones in epistolam Johannis; V: Quinquaginta; VI: Sermones de tempore; VII: Sermones de sanctis. Printed in Basel by Johann Amerbach in 1494-1495. [GW 2920; ISTC ia01308000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Basel: Johann Amerbach Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Augustine, Saint, Bishop of Hippo Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1494/1495 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brant, Sebastian (additions) Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f85bc1f238ff6e3c3666ad1e223a26b5.pdf 7336ce04e2df8d63f5af3577957980a5 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sermones de laudibus sanctorum [folium 20] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_020Caraccioulus1492ca Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Caracciolus, Robertus, 1425-1495 Description An account of the resource One leaf of Sermones de laudibus sanctorum by Robertus Caracciolus. Printed in Reutlingen by Michael Greyff not after 1492. [GW 6060; ISTC ic00151000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Reutlingen: Michael Greyff Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Sermons Caracciolus, Robertus, 1425-1495 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1492 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/959c4398339a2cb163c6948c03962a74.pdf c12b67d229d39e51c3eec950b3e86951 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sermones de preservatione hominis a peccato [folium 112] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_112Wann1501 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wann, Paul, approximately 1420-1489 Description An account of the resource One leaf from Sermones de preservatione hominis a peccato by Paulus Wann. Printed in Munich by Johann Schobsser circa 1501. [GW M51403; ISTC im00004000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Munich: Johann Schobsser Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1501 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text