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                    <text>GV043-07
Connected Exhibit Interviews
Interviewee: Samm Martin
Interviewers: Gayle Schaub, Cara Cadena
Date: May 18, 2016
Gayle:

Ok, so now we're ready. Now we're recording, I think. We'll see.

Samm:

Ok.

Gayle:

So you can tell us anything you want to tell us…you can start with your name, what
you majored in maybe? Whatever.

Samm:

00:17

Well, my name is Samm Martin and I majored in political science and I minored in
Spanish at Grand Valley. I just graduated, in April and I will be returning in the fall
for my graduate program which is higher education and I’ll be majoring in college
student affairs leadership. Like…when I think about like a story I would want to tell
people I have to start by saying that I’m not from Michigan.
I’m from a town in Maryland on the East coast called Laurel and it’s a pretty small
city, but it’s got a lot. There’s a lot of different people, a lot of diverse people there.
And you know, originally thinking about where Grand Valley was I wasn’t really
thinking about it when I was in high school and trying to figure out where I wanted
to go to college because I wanted to play. And I wanted to play lacrosse and you
know, I wanted to be a student athlete and have all the great stuff that comes with
that, too, so when I got an email from the coach saying to come out I was like
‘what?!’ like Michigan? Like that’s so far away. I don’t want to go there because I
heard the winter’s terrible. But I got up here and it was everything that I wanted;
small school feel but it was a big student body from what I understood. It was a
place where I could make an impact if I wanted to. And I think I would be remiss if I
didn’t say anything about how Grand Valley has the opportunities to be able to do
whatever you want to do, and to be able to have the resources that we have here to
be able to be successful and feel like you know that you have a place here and to
feel like there’s a sense of belonging. Cause especially being from, you know, 600
miles away I don’t have any family out here it was pretty important that I find a
group of people that I felt comfortable with, and I did, and that helped me get
through my four years and my eventual two that I’ll have here as well.
I just think that if I had to talk to a freshman about, you know, getting through
college and getting through Grand Valley I would just tell them to find people that
they trust and find people that they care about and that care about them because
college is not something that you can get through by yourself and a lot of us know
that but a lot of us don’t really understand that until we’re put in that situation and
until we are actually confronted with the fact that we can’t you know pull a 3.0 GPA,
or make it through rough nights without our families, by ourselves. And that can
make all the difference when it comes to being successful in college or not wanting
to be around anymore. And I think that finding people who…whoever it may be, a

�wide range of people can make all the difference in the college experience and I’m
glad that I found mine here at Grand Valley so.
Gayle:

Were your first group, your “people,” that you found was it first the team?

Samm:

Yeah.

Gayle:

Is it still?

Samm:

3:34

Gayle:
Samm:

It’s a little bit of all over the place cause it’s still…when you come in you know who
your teammates are, and you meet them right away, but then I had my freshman
year dorm people – we all lived in the same building. We’re still all very close, we
still talk to each other a lot.
What dorm was that?

3:49

North- it’s called Weed now but it was North A Living Center. And it was, you know
that was not necessarily traditional so you didn’t meet with so many people but we
had a lot of camaraderie on our floor and we hung out a lot together. And as the
years went by I met people in my classes who introduced me to other people and I
eventually found kind of like a home in the Women’s Center and the LGBT Center.
They were people who really taught be about like community and what solidarity
was and just having the sort of navigational skills that I needed to get through
college. I found them late, my junior year, but it still helped. Especially with trying to
navigate the next phase of life, like grad school and eventual job hunting and things
like that. And they set me up with a lot of good opportunities too.

Cara:

So they were a big part in you going to grad school?

Samm:

Yes.

Cara:

Okay.

Samm:

4:54

Cara:
Samm:

Yes, and just helping me like find that I could do it.
Yeah.

4:58

Cause like my GPA like wasn’t all the way where it wanted it to be, where it
should’ve been, but I did some work, did a lot of work this past year, and it brought
it up a lot, and they were just always encouraging. You know, giving me the tools I
needed to success, to find success, but you know, pushing me to do that for myself,
and they were my biggest cheerleaders. And especially my teammates and my
coach, like, they’ve always been there for me, and just helping me out.

Gayle:

So I have two more questions now.

Samm:

Okay.

Gayle:

Number one. When you say you found them late, like I want to know how you
found them. Like how you…okay, that’s the first question. I hope I remember the
other one.

�Samm:

5:42

Okay so, when I say I found them late, I went…well…I’m out, queer, LGBT person,
but when I first started at Grand Valley, I wasn’t, and I, just on a whim, I saw that
the LGBT center was having an event, and I just went. I was by myself, and then I
met this person, and he said “well come into the center tomorrow, like I’ll be in
there, you’ll meet a few cool people.” And I was nervous as all get out like not
knowing what to expect because it’s a new space with new people, but I just went in
and everybody was like “how are you.” Like asking me all of these question about
my life story and stuff, and they introduced me to more people. So I guess finding it
just means that I just went in one day.

Gayle:

Okay. I just wanted to know how you connected.

Samm:

Yeah.

Gayle:

Because I’m curious about how people make these initial connections.

Samm:

Yeah.

Gayle:

And if it’s something you sought out or you… or it sought you out.

Samm:

No. I would definitely say that it sought me out, and I just kind of like followed it.

Gayle:

So as for grades, do you think being a student athlete is tough to maintain. Is that
part of it?

Samm:

6:50

Oh, yeah! Definitely, because when you’re a student athlete you give so much of
your time, and it’s like nobody jokes when they say it’s a fulltime job, because it is.
Like, you have to eat right, keep your body like a well-oiled machine, like keep going,
and you also have a huge time commitment. Lacrosse did teach me about time
management in that regard. But there are a lot of different types of stressors that
student athletes have over just your normal students. I think, you know, it took me a
while to kind of like get that under control and like not feeling overwhelmed all the
time. But it is possible, and I had to really reach out to, you know tutors and my
academic advisor and my coach, and just like, “hey I need help with this.” Like…and
that’s a big thing too. Like I was…I never had to study in high school. So getting to
college and having to study and having to ask for help was one of the hardest things
that I’ve ever had to do. But then once I did, I had a lot of success in that regard,
when it came to my grades.

Gayle:

We’re hearing that, over and over.

Cara:

Did you go visit home a lot?

Samm:

8:05

No, I went home for Thanksgiving and Christmas, the two big holidays. Spring break
was with the team. I went home for my freshman year summer, and then
sophomore and junior year I stayed and I worked over the summer. And this
summer I’m going home for maybe six weeks, but that’s because like, I’m about to
be in grad school. I don’t know if I’m going to be able to go home ever again, like,
that type of thing. And just being able to see my parents, and my brother’s going to

�college this year too, so…for the first time. So I want to be able to set him up and
make sure that he has everything that he needs before he leaves so…
Gayle:

Samm:

So if we were to… if you were to kind of think about any stand out moments that
might… if you had like a range of emotions that you could pick one from happy to
angry, to sad, to frustrated, to proud, to…did I say frustrated? Anything. Could you
think of anything like, “there was a time that I felt…when that was awesome,” or
“that time was awful,” or “I can’t believe I made it through that.”
9:17

Gayle:

Samm:

Cara:

Yeah, well one moment sticks out to me in particular. I just remember it was my
winter semester of my freshman year, and the first semester grades came back and
they were terrible. And I told my dad, but I didn’t tell my mom, and I was sitting in
my apartment just on the phone with my mom and she was like upset about my
grades because they weren’t good. Like you want your child to be successful in all
ways possible, but I was just feeling so defeated. Just because my… like I went into
finals with a good GPA and It came out and it was awful, and just… I didn’t feel like I
could continue. And then I started getting into some destructive behavior, and that
wasn’t good either. But, I’m here. Like that’s one of the things that I didn’t think that
I would ever make it through. Cause I’m here now. I’m clean. Sober. I don’t… I didn’t
really use drugs or anything, but I consumed very large amounts of alcohol. Which is
something that students do… in college they do that. Like we know that they do
that, but not to the extent that I was. And I think that getting through that and
finding other ways of coping was something that I thought that I was pretty proud
of, and especially sitting down at commencement and like looking around, seeing
my name in the book, that I graduated and I made it. Like I didn’t graduate with
honors or anything, but I did it, you know? Just having that sense of
accomplishment is something that I’m super proud of. And especially looking from
that moment to where I am now, going to grad school, and having a career out of
that, is something that I never thought I would get to, but I am so…
Okay, so not knowing all like these stories are coming out that I didn’t… so do you
think that it was… is there… how did you… I don’t want to… you don’t have to tell
me anything you don’t want to tell me, but getting through that was it reaching out
to some of these services or you just made it through on your own?

11:30

Oh, I definitely had help. I used the counseling center. I had a tutor to help me get
my grades up. My coach was incredible with helping me. Just because, you know,
she has done a lot of work with students like that, a lot of work with… I wouldn’t
necessarily say crisis students, but student who need help, and who need guidance
through things, and she was just incredible. Like she understood. Like she still
pushed me to do the best that I could, but she really just was amazing. And then
some of my teammates knew too. Like I couldn’t have been able to do… I wouldn’t
been able to do this by myself. Like at all.
They saw something that you couldn’t see at the time.

�Samm:

12:27

Cara:
Samm:

Yeah, and they still do. They still see things that I don’t see in myself, and it takes…
they try to show me that every day. And I was sitting in my coach’s office once, and
cause… like they tell me… they would tell me things that I wouldn’t necessarily
believe. And she said “you know, sometimes you need people to tell you things that
you might not necessarily believe about yourself so you do.” Because if someone
just says like ‘hey, you’re so awesome’ all the time it’s just like ‘yeah’, you know,
whatever. But like having you have an impact with your teammates and with the
people that surround you and seeing that manifest itself can make it be of a
difference of how I see myself. If that makes sense.
It does.

13:15

So, it’s definitely not something that I would’ve been able to do by myself. And I
didn’t tell my parents this until, like retroactively, because I didn’t-I don’t want my
parents to worry about me having an alcohol problem.

Gayle:

Oh, so they didn’t know you were going through all this?

Samm:

No.

Gayle:

Ugh, and you were so far from home.

Samm:

13:32

Mhmm, and I think that’s one of the things that made it easier for me because I
know if I would’ve told my mom I was going through that stuff she would’ve been
like, “You’re coming home” like “you’re not going to handle this” like “you don’t
ever have to worry about being alone and vulnerable” and that’s not what I
would’ve wanted, because I’m not the type of kid who needs to be under their
parents all the time and I think that that probably would’ve done more harm than
good.

Gayle:

As a mom I would’ve wanted you to come home.

Samm:

Yeah…

Cara:

Me too.

Samm:

14:03

And that’s understandable. That’s completely understandable because you don’t
want your child to be out where you can’t get to them and just be hurting.

Cara:

Right…but as a child I wouldn’t have told my mom either.

Gayle:

Do you think some of it was because you were so far away? Do you think if you went
to school in Maryland this…

Cara:

Yeah that’s a good question…

Gayle:

Like this, like your situation would’ve been different? Or do you think…was it the
stress of being an athlete or…? I mean we don’t have t-you don’t have to diagnose
all the problems.]

Samm:

Well…I don’t know…

�Cara:
Samm:

It’s kinda hard to say, isn’t it?
14:35

Gayle:

Samm:

Well what you said about high school being-coming early that seems to be a very
common theme of hitting that wall of “oh, this isn’t high school anymore” and then
how you cope with all that is the real, the real story.
15:30

Gayle:

Samm:

Yeah. Yeah, I was at the top of my class in high school and I got here and it was like
nope, just kidding! You know? I hit a brick wall, but I also dug myself into a hole
because I was taking 200 and 300 level classes my first semester cause I came in
with credits, I was in the Honors College, and I didn’t want to be in the Honors
College anymore because it was too stressful and it was just…the first semester was
a huge, huge reality check. Huge reality check.
So what have been some outstanding classes? What would be the ones that you
would say ‘yep, that one really’ either good or bad that kind of stand out for having
an impact of some sort.

16:15

Gayle:
Samm:

Yeah. I think that you know I still would’ve had my-I would’ve been, I wouldn’t have
been an athlete if I went home. If I had gone to College Park, I wouldn’t have been. I
mean I would’ve had a different set of obstacles and I think that the problems would
not have necessarily gone away they just would’ve been different. I wouldn’t be
living at home cause dad doesn’t want us to live at home, so I would’ve been on
campus and I would’ve been able to go home whenever I wanted to but…I mean it’s
really hard to say to try to think about where I’d be if I didn’t pick Grand Valley and I
can’t so, I don’t know.

Well…I took black feminist thought fall semester of my senior year and that class
was just like…oh my God, like oh my god incredible! Like you learn—and I
regret…ugh I shouldn’t say I regret taking political science as a major because I
don’t. It taught me so many things about the world and it taught me how to write
incredibly like it taught me how to be disciplined and be purposeful with my writing,
but if I would’ve been able take women and gender studies classes and make that a
bigger forefront into my education I feel like I would’ve been just like so much
happier. Like I took black feminist thought, intro to LGB—no…yeah I took intro to
gender studies and I took women and gender studies classes and I was just like “why
didn’t I take these sooner?!” Like I feel like everybody should be required to take a
class like that cause it teachesWho taught it? The black feminist thought class?

17:13

Dr. Weekley, and she let us, she gave us readings that we thought were impossible.
Some of the most academic writings about, you know, things that we knew already
like we understand what institutionalized oppression means, okay so say it in ways
that we understand and we just struggled with readings and we would be in the
same room for ten hours trying to figure things out, but at the end of the class like,
I…just felt great about it and knowing that there is a world that we live in that isn’t
the greatest for women, it isn’t the greatest for people of color, but in

�understanding what the problem is and how it works we can try and find a way to
fix it. And I learned that with Dr. Weekly and Dr. Keegan too. Cause those were the
two…the professors that really stuck with me the most. And just learning—I learned
so much about my black and female identity and also my queer identity through
those classes so I think those stuck with me a lot more too cause having texts that I
can relate too even though these people are far more advanced in their education
than I am, or have a lot more life experience than I am, like we go through the same
things. And having that relatability is something that I thought was needed and
something that I thought was awesome that I could relate to those things and I still
kept all my stuff and I just like reading through them and seeing how I process
through that type of theory.
Cara:

It’s motivating too, to be able to identify with somebody like that.

Samm:

Mhmm

Cara:

So, in grad school do you get to have any involvement with the team at all or is
lacrosse over?

Samm:

As far as the player side it’s over…

Cara:

Yeah

Samm:

19:08

And I’m like…I still can’t believe it. We had that last game and I was just sobbing just
because something that I have done for over half my life is over. But I talked with
my co- I’m in conversation with my coach right now to see if there’s other things I
can too like I’m trying to commentate on the live streams of the game or something
like that. That would be so cool and especially since I know the game, I know our
players and stuff like that and I’m pretty cool with people in the athletic department
I guess. But I still do want to stay involved cause this program has given me so
much. And…understanding the, our program is very young we’re only six years old
and we made it to the national tournament like that’s unheard of. And like
understanding that it’s not for us right now, it’s for the people who come after. And
I’m just excited to see like this program just take off cause there’s so much potential
in the classes coming up and just seeing what we can really do with something that I
want to be a apart of whether it’s behind the scenes or in the forefront, and I’m
generally a behind the scenes kind of person.

Gayle:

So the graduate program, I mean it seems a natural fit for you, to turn around now
and do for others what

Samm:

Mhmm.

Gayle:

And I use everything you’ve learned

Samm:

Yeah.

Gayle:

How did you connect with this program?
Well-

�Gayle:
Samm:

Someone suggested it or did you just…?
20:36

Well I met some people when I first started coming to the LGBT center. Like I met
people who wanted to do student affairs. And they wanted to work with college
students and they wanted to, do that whole thing. In the fall of me senior year I had
to step up as a student leader in the LGBT center, and kind of like I’ve had to, serve
students and be a liaison for students and administration, and things like that. And I
met some people like Tekeelia Garrett the Student Ombuds, I met her, I had gotten
more in touch with Title IX and I&amp;E (Inclusion and Equity) and I was just thinking to
myself like, “where were these people when I was a freshman?” Like where are all
these people like who just have your back like unconditionally no matter what like,
where were they when I was a freshman? And I was like “Oh, I can do that” like I
can be that person that I needed when I was a freshman, and it just clicked. And I
started applying for fellowships and going to conferences and I was like, like, I feel
like I just wouldn’t be happy anywhere else. And I told my mom I didn’t want to do
political science anymore or go to law school anymore and she goes “whatever you
do, do not change your major” like “you are not staying there for three more years,
like, I’m not paying for that.” And I was like no I’m not doing that but I’m just going
to go to grad school for something different. And it just makes sense. Like the type
of person that I am it just makes all types of sense.

Gayle:

So you said “I had to step up” that’s in itself a self-imposed “I had to step up.”

Samm:

Yeah.

Gayle:

There was no requirement that to-

Samm:

22:10

No. We had a problem, and I can’t speak too much on it but we had a problem, and
there was a lack of trust in the whole dynamics of, between students, between
administrators, between, you know, the higher, higher-ups. And I took it upon
myself along with another student to really like I had to be tough with the
administrators because, you know, that’s how we get our voices heard as students.
We have to kind of be in your face like, you have to understand what happens and,
you know, be the type of person who is not going to stop until we get justice and we
get what we need. I felt that I had to do that because I wasn’t just going to sit idly
by and watch student be discontent and have people leave the center and things
like that. So…

Gayle:

Well when you say “where were these people when I was a freshman?” I mean I
realize the Ombudsman position is relatively new, but the other roles, you didn’t
know about them or just, you mean that some of them just weren’t in existence
yet?

Samm:

Well I just didn’t know.

Gayle:

Okay.

�Samm:

24:00

Like, I met Marla this semester, not this semester but this year. She’s the new
(Assistant Director) of the LGBT center and I, like, she has been incredible. Like, I
wish I would have known her when I was a freshman. Like, not where were you
when I was a freshman but I wish I would have known you-

Gayle:

Yeah.

Samm:

When I was a freshman.

Gayle:

I wanted to see what you had meant by that.

Samm:

Yeah.

Gayle:

Because I’m always wondering how, if there is a way with students who feel like
there’s so much to know when you get here so it’s impossible to know it all. It’s
impossible to know what you need.

Samm:

Right.

Gayle:

Until you know you need it.

Samm:

Right.

Gayle:

But I am always curious if there’s any way these kinds of support services can make
themselves more visible that aren’t, like, fair tables.

Samm:

Yeah.

Gayle:

So, I guess it is a point of need kind of thing. When student needs something they
realize there are these programs. This kind of thing is what we’re hoping will help.
People will go ‘Oh I didn’t know that was there.

Cara:

Or if there RA’s would be educated on all these services.

Samm:

Yeah, and I’m just glad because I accepted a grad assistantship in housing. So I’ll be
in there and depending on where I am I’ll be able to help students with that to.

Cara:

That makes so much sense that they put you in housing.

Samm:

Cause so many people got through that.

Gayle:

Yeah, and you could just be there listening and watching.

Cara:

You could just be there to answer questions.

Samm:

Mhmm.

Gayle:

So lacrosse is varsity?

Samm:

Mhmm. There’s a club team to but I was on the varsity one.

Gayle:

But you could be involved in the club team couldn’t you? Or there’s no more
eligibility or?

�Samm:

Yeah, I don’t have eligibility anymore.

Gayle:

You could coach couldn’t you?

Samm:

Yeah I could.

Cara:

Or recruit.

Samm:

Yeah, that’ll take time. I just need to figure that out.

Cara:

How exiting.

Samm:

Yeah. I’m really pumped to see where these next two years will take me.
[Off the record chatting removed]

Gayle:
Samm:

Is there anything else you want to tell me?
25:25

I mean not that I can think of.

Gayle:

You’ve always lived on campus?

Samm:

I, um, for the first two years I did and then my third year I live in Campus View. So
that’s basically on campus, it’s not like far away.

Gayle:

But then as an RA?

Samm:

I will be on campus, yeah.

Gayle:

You don’t know where?

Samm:

No.

Gayle:

So wherever they put you.

Samm:

Yup.

Gayle:

Ok.

Samm:

I got requested to go to the South Apartments, like in the back so maybe I’ll be there
but I’m not sure. I either wanna be back there or up North with freshman.

Gayle:

And there’s a new freshman situation.

Samm:

Mhmm.

Gayle:

I don’t know. The HHLLC or something.

Samm:

Yeah, it’s a living and learning center.

Gayle:

But it’s formed now like the way I lived in a dorm. Which is room with beds, and
then room beds, and then a common bathroom. Because they are finding that the
suite situation is not as helpful to students because they cluster off and they stay in
their own little apartments. Whereas, you know when you have to share a

�bathroom you have a common space it’s better for community building and working
through all that stuff.
Samm:

Yeah, but they’re tearing down the Ravines which I’m not happy about but that’s
another story for another time. (laughter)

Cara:

Another exhibit.

End

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Veteran’s History Project
Korea
John Sampson

Interview Length: (01:07:37:00)
Pre-enlistment / ROTC (00:00:39:00)
 Born in Detroit, Michigan on December 29th, 1942, meaning he was a “war baby”
(00:00:39:00)
 He originally went to school in Detroit but his family ended up moving to Grosse Pointe,
Michigan because their house was in the middle of newly-constructed Edsel Ford
Freeway; from Grosse Pointe, his family moved to Birmingham (00:00:48:00)
o Sampson graduated from Birmingham High School in 1961 (00:00:59:00)
 He went to college at Western Michigan University where he signed up for ROTC as a
freshman because students had to either take two years of ROTC or two years of Phys.
Ed. (00:01:02:00)
o At the end of the second year, he had to decide if he wanted to commit and
become an officer; Sampson did commit to going on to the advanced program
(00:01:18:00)
 Sampson’s father was drafted to go into the service but the military would not allow him
to go because he was skill-traded as a tool- and dye-maker (00:01:42:00)
o Therefore, during World War II, his father was in war production, which included
machining B-29 bomb sights (00:01:51:00)
o As it turned out, Sampson’s father-in-law flew on a B-29 bomber and flew out of
Guam on one of the last missions over Tokyo in 1945 (00:02:01:00)
 Before joining the ROTC, Sampson had given some thought to joining the military
(00:02:22:00)
o However, Army ROTC was the only program at Western Michigan; there was no
Navy or Air Force programs (00:02:25:00)
o Sampson enjoyed the ROTC and decided to go on and he was the first in his
family to go into the military (00:02:31:00)
o When he made the decision to continue, Sampson’s parents were very supportive
of whatever decision he made (00:02:41:00)
o Therefore, in his junior year, Sampson decided to continue in the ROTC, knowing
full-well that in the summer of 1964, he would have to do the ROTC summer
camp at Camp Funkston at Fort Riley, Kansas (00:02:49:00)
 Sampson had no idea what would happen once he completed the ROTC training; when he
went to the ROTC summer camp, meet a captain who was a signal corps officer with a
history background and having degrees in History and Political Science, Sampson
thought that would be a fit for him (00:03:16:00)
o In the spring of 1965, before he graduated, the major in charge of the ROTC unit
wanted to change Sampson to either infantry, armor, or artillery (00:03:33:00)

�










When Sampson told the major why he selected signal, the major thought it
was a good reason, so he left Sampson alone and Sampson became a
signal corps officer (00:03:41:00)
The commissioning was done at graduation in Waldo Stadium and the keynote speaker
that day was Sargent Shriver, who was head of the Peace Corps (00:03:50:00)
After graduation, Sampson decided to go to graduate school, although he did not know if
it would work (00:04:06:00)
o He went anyway and the Army gave him a three-year deferment to go on active
duty so Sampson could go to graduate school (00:04:11:00)
o Sampson checked out different schools and ended up choosing the University of
Massachusetts at Amherst for a graduate program in American History
(00:04:19:00)
During the junior year of ROTC, Sampson was taking on responsibilities as an officer in
the unit (00:04:40:00)
o At the later part of their junior year, Sampson and the other men in the unit went
to Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan for a weekend, where they did training
under senior supervision (00:04:52:00)
o In the summer, the men spent six weeks at Fort Riley with about fifteen hundred
other officers going through training; Fort Riley was the home of the summer
camp for the ROTC in the Fifth Army area out of Chicago (00:05:06:00)
 The men did everything as basic infantry, including: guard duty, KP
(Kitchen Patrol) duty, went through different scenarios, group activities
where the men had to function as a group and activities where the men had
to make decisions based on past Army combat experiences (00:05:22:00)
 The men also fired all the weapons and did all the things that they would
be expected to do (00:05:57:00)
 It was really hot Kansas at the time; one day, at four o’clock in the
afternoon, it was one hundred and fifteen degrees in the shade
(00:06:03:00)
 The men had different assignments depending on the week, based on a set
schedule (00:06:26:00)
 Sampson meet people from all over the Midwest, including Nebraska and
the Dakotas; this was his first experience of what the military was really
like (00:06:34:00)
o The ROTC back at college involved the whole thing, including: instruction on
how to give presentations as an officer, marching, and classroom instruction
where the men dealt with weapons and logistics (00:07:03:00)
o The men were paid twenty-seven dollars a month as a stipend for being an
advanced ROTC (00:07:24:00)
During his senior year in ROTC, Sampson had to “double-up” in his second semester
because during his first semester, he student-taught in Allegan, Michigan (00:07:31:00)
o During the second semester, Sampson doubled-up his classes so that he could
graduate in June with his class (00:07:44:00)
Sampson never sensed the aspect of military discipline because the instructors took the
men through all the things that the enlisted men did, so the men understood about

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cleaning the barracks, etc. and they knew what a private did; the men had a feel for the
enlistee (00:08:09:00)
o It was not that the men were better than the enlistees, it was that they understood
what the enlisted men did (00:08:33:00)
o Sampson believes one of the strong-suits of the military is they training the men
in a way that they understand how other people have to think and act
(00:08:39:00)
o Sampson does not feel that he got the standard drill instructor experience because
the officers and senior NCOs at the summer camp came from the university
settings and they understood where the men were coming from; they were not
people directly out of the field (00:08:56:00)
 There was a different mindset with the instructors (00:09:22:00)
During the ROTC summer camp, the scenarios the men faced were based on previous
Army involvements from World War II and the Korean conflict (00:09:48:00)
o These were meant to show if the men were given scenarios and how they had to
react; the instructors then told the other members of the group how they were
supposed to act, which the other men did not know (00:09:57:00)
o There was a set scenario and each man was only given a select amount of
information and had to make decisions based on what they had at the time; they
never had all the information and they had to make the decisions (00:10:09:00)
o The men did the scenarios in 1964, which meant that the Vietnam conflict had not
mushroomed; there were advisors in South Vietnam, but not ground troops
(00:10:34:00)

Regular Army Training (00:11:01:00)
 It only took two years for Sampson to complete his Masters, which was interesting
because the second year he moved into the graduate dorm at the university, his roommate
was an armor officer originally from Norwich University in Vermont (00:11:01:00)
o Therefore, there were two military officers in the same room on military
deferment (00:11:14:00)
 When he graduated in June 1967, Sampson was given his papers to sign for his “dream
assignment” (00:11:21:00)
o Everyone had to sign up for a short tour-of-duty and at that time, there were only
two assignments on the paper, South Vietnam or South Korea; Sampson decided
he would like South Korea, although he knew nothing about it, because it was a
cold climate and he was from Michigan (00:11:31:00)
 He signed up for South Korea and they told him that he would not be on active-duty until
March 1968, which meant that he had to find something to do (00:11:46:00)
o Therefore, Sampson became a temporary substitute teacher for a semester at the
sixth-grade level in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan (00:11:57:00)
o At this time, Sampson went to see his roommate from college, who was down at
Fort Campbell, Kentucky, because he wanted to know what his assignment was
(00:12:11:00)
 Sampson knew that he was going to Fort Gordon, Georgia for signals
officers basic training for nine weeks and then on to Fort Monmouth, New
Jersey for signal officers communications centers operations training;

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however, he did not know where the final base was because there was
APO for San Francisco (00:12:22:00)
 The roommate checked the information out and Sampson’s assignment
was one hundred and eighty miles outside of Seoul in [Yong Ju] as a
“KMAG” officer, a job Sampson did not know about (00:12:42:00)
 The roommate explained that “KMAG” stood for Korean Military
Advisory Group; Sampson was going to be an advisor for the South
Korean army (00:12:54:00)
When he made is decision about his “dream assignment”, Sampson had been so
enveloped in his graduate program that he did not look at one assignment or the other; he
just saw Korea and picked it (00:13:24:00)
o He had no feelings about Vietnam one way or the other (00:13:41:00)
o When he made his decision to go to UMass, there was not a large peace
movement on the campus; there was probably some but it did not affect the
people going to the graduate school (00:13:51:00)
Sampson served as a substitute teacher for about a couple of months, a couple of days a
week before he went onto active duty in March 1968 (00:14:24:00)
When he went on active duty, Sampson drove down to Fort Gordon, which was an all
new experience (00:14:29:00)
o Once he signed in, he lived in a barracks with the thirty-five other officers in the
class; some of the other officers were field-commissioned officers, some were in
the National Guard, and the rest were ROTC officers (00:14:41:00)
o The training lasted nine weeks; because he was a signals corps officer, Sampson
was considered a “combat-support officer”, which meant that half of the training
was infantry and the other half was communications (00:15:03:00)
o The training was everything from throwing hand grenades and firing recoilless
rifles off the back of jeeps to running a remote communications site for forty-five
hours (00:15:15:00)
o Fort Gordon was a unique experience because now the trainings was getting more
in-depth; the men went through a battlefield indoctrination course where they
would crawl on the ground over logs and barbed wire while live machine gun
rounds were fired over their heads in an effort to dissuade the men from standing
up (00:15:34:00)
o They were a class of thirty-five officers and next to them was a class of two
hundred raw recruits because there was also infantry training at Fort Gordon
(00:15:53:00)
 Those were eighteen and nineteen year old kids who had no military
experience; the training was different for them as compared to Sampson’s
class because all the men in the class were college graduates
(00:16:04:00)
 Mentally, Sampson was better prepared through maturity and other
experiences in life (00:16:30:00)
 At that time, a number of the officers had been through law school,
which meant that there were men who had been through a large
amount of college; even the field commissioned officers had had
experience in the military (00:16:42:00)

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A lot of the raw recruits were out of the mountains and had never
experienced those types of events (00:17:11:00)
o At that time, all of the officers in his class were white and a lot were from the
South although there were men from the North; the military tradition had a lot of
the men in the officer’s corps coming from Southern universities (00:17:33:00)
 When he went into the military and was commissioned, there was not a
draft, so the men in the class came from all over the country (00:17:54:00)
 The men got to the class based on education, willingness to serve and
overseas experience for the field commissioned officers (00:18:03:00)
 There was not the diversity in 1968 (00:18:27:00)
 However, from information that Sampson has gathered, there was more
diversity in the other parts of the army, such as infantry and armored,
because of quicker promotion (00:18:36:00)
 The signal corps was a smaller operation; there were maybe two
signal corps generals and if someone wanted a military career, they
would go into a field where they would gain promotion faster
(00:18:43:00)
The military was an experience that Sampson wanted; when he started college in 1961,
he wanted to do four years of undergrad, get a masters degree, and a military commission
(00:19:09:00)
o It all played out that way but he had no thought of a military career; he liked
working with kids and wanted to be a high school teacher (00:19:24:00)
Fort Riley was a facility in which Camp Funkston was set up every summer to house the
ROTC, so there was a separate unit on the post and it was somewhat isolated
(00:19:45:00)
On the other hand, Fort Gordon was an active base; it had signal corps, MP school, civil
affairs school and some infantry training, so there was a different make up of the base
(00:20:04:00)
o At Fort Gordon, the facilities were barracks and nothing was air-conditioned; still,
the men learned to live with it and Sampson found the base very adequate for his
needs (00:20:25:00)
Following Fort Gordon, Sampson was going on to advanced training, although not all the
officers in the class were advancing to the next school; some were going to duty
assignments right away (00:20:57:00)
o Sampson went on to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, just outside of New York City,
where he went through communications operations center training; the training
was basically in the classroom because there is no pistol or rifle range at the base
(00:21:09:00)
o Some of the training was also working in classified, i.e. working with crypto
equipment; the men were locked in a vault room working with classified material
and special equipment (00:21:30:00)
Out of the thirty-five officer in the class at Fort Gordon, thirty were assigned Stateside
and then short-tour, which meant that they would be going to Vietnam; for the remaining
five, two went to Korea, one went to Panama, one went to Thailand and the final one
went to Germany (00:21:50:00)

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Sampson trained to run a communications operations center, which included long-line
(telephone), satellite communication, dealing with classified information and
broadcasting; there was a range of types of communication and the objective was to run
the center, which was what Sampson was training for at Fort Monmouth (00:22:30:00)
o At the time, Sampson had been promoted to first lieutenant (00:23:06:00)
When he was at Fort Gordon, Sampson would go into Augusta, Georgia (00:23:24:00)
o Augusta was the home of the Masters’ golf tournament, so he drove past to golf
course to see what it looked like and he would go to church on Sundays; he could
get off the post and was not restricted (00:23:23:00)
o One unique situation at Fort Gordon was one night, when the men went to bed,
the next day, thirty officers were gone; the Army had shipped out (00:23:45:00)
 The men were at the base when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated
and because of the tension in the country, the Army shipped out the
officers to another part of the country (00:23:51:00)
 This made the men realize they could be shipped out at any time
(00:24:05:00)
While at Fort Monmouth, the men had to live off-post because they did not have enough
housing for all the officers going through training (00:24:13:00)
o Sampson lived in Freehold, New Jersey, about a half an hour drive west of the
base, where he lived with three other officers; the four officers commuted every
day to the base and were off-duty every weekend (00:24:21:00)
o Sampson only went into New York City once; he had to get some information
because he know that he was going to Korea and he wanted to pick up some
books about Korean culture and language (00:24:48:00)
 The military at that time, even though Sampson was going to be a KMAG
officer, did not give him a lot of information (00:25:03:00)
o While he was at the base, Sampson had to have his KMAG patches sewed onto
his uniforms, so he went to a lady who did that who worked just outside the base;
she had never seen the KMAG patch, a bell-shape with the work “KMAG”
underneath (00:25:15:00)
o Being a KMAG officer meant that Sampson had to get a passport, so he got a
quasi-diplomatic passport that did not cost him anything; he had a red government
passport which gave him quasi-diplomatic immunity (00:25:38:00)

Deployment (00:26:05:00)
 Once finished at Fort Monmouth, Sampson was supposed to ship overseas by flying out
of Fort Lewis, Washington and McCord Air Force Base (00:26:05:00)
o He left Birmingham, Michigan, flew to Seattle, and got to the post; however he
could not fly out the next day because for some reason, the government had sent
his passport to Oakland (00:26:18:00)
o They had to ship the passport from Oakland up to Seattle because Sampson
needed it for going overseas; he had another day or two in Seattle, which he used
to take the bus to downtown Seattle (00:26:33:00)
o When he shipped out with his passport, Sampson went on a contracted Northwest
Orient Airlines plane with probably one hundred and sixty other servicemen; the
officers boarded the plane first and got off the plane first (00:26:50:00)

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They flew first to Tokyo, Japan, where they refueled, and then flew to Seoul and Kimpo
Air Force Base, which was where the Seoul International Airport is (00:27:09:00)
o Sampson had no pre-conceived notions of Korea and no thoughts one way or the
other; This was his first experience being in Asia and being out of the country,
outside of going to Canada (00:27:39:00)
After landing, they took the men to the processing center and because Sampson had his
KMAG patches on, a sergeant in the KMAG detachment in Seoul saw him and brought
him into Seoul to find out where his duty was (00:28:01:00)
o This was when Sampson found out that his assignment changed; He was now
assigned to Eighth Army G4 because his slot was filled by a classmate who got
into Korea before Sampson (00:28:14:00)
o Sampson had to put in a bid for a room and because his rank was a captain, he
ended up being in a dormitory in the Young Song compound, the home of Eighth
Army, right next to Seoul American High School (00:29:19:00)
 It was a brick dormitory just like any on a university and it was where
Sampson lived for the next thirteen and a half months (00:29:38:00)
 Each man had his own room with a group shower and bathroom area;
there was also a Korean woman that cleaned his room every day
(00:29:47:00)
 He paid her so many won (the local currency) per month but he
had to buy the soap and whatnot (00:30:03:00)
o Sampson found out that he was in electronics and communication G4, which was
commanded by a general (00:30:22:00)
 The commander of logistics was a quartermaster colonel named James
Bond (00:30:33:00)
 Sampson worked in a office with a lieutenant colonel, two civilians, and a
Korean secretary (00:30:57:00)
Near the end of his tour, they needed someone to replace another soldier in an office
down the hallway, so Sampson became head of an office and he had a sergeant working
as a clerk and they dealt with excess supplies out of Vietnam (00:31:14:00)
 The military was shipping one million dollars in excess supplies from
South Vietnam up to South Korea for the 2nd [Battalion] of the 7th Infantry
[Regiment] (00:31:32:00)
During his first job, Sampson was looking at the flow charts of equipment and if there
was anything suspicious (00:31:55:00)
One time, Sampson was at a meeting on the other side of Korea and had to come back to
the post because he had to go out to depot command and get radios for the South Korean
Army; the North Koreans had just come down the east coast in Spring 1968
(00:32:03:00)
o The North and South Koreans got into a firefight and Sampson had to go and get
radio to send out to the South Korean forces (00:32:28:00)
o The men were not supposed to be out after midnight because of the philosophy
that one shot first and asked questions later; Sampson was a little nervous about
doing the job, but it was part of the military, so he did it (00:32:37:00)
At the time, South Korea was almost like a dictatorship; Park Chung Hee was president
and the government was very stringent and military controlled (00:33:13:00)

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o The country was still picking itself up economically but the democracy that the
United States envisioned was not yet existent (00:33:30:00)
While he was in Korea, there were two divisions at the DMZ as part of I Corps and today,
it is still one of the most fortified areas in the world (00:33:39:00)
o There were a lot of concern because in Christmas 1968, the Pueblo crew came
over the “bridge of no return” from the North (00:34:07:00)
o There was shooting at the DMZ but a lot of people did not know about it; the
average loss was one soldier per day (00:34:39:00)
 One time, Sampson was next to a captain who was on the DMZ and he
had lost four soldiers during his tour (00:34:49:00)
o The deaths usually did not come from North Korean infiltrations but exfiltrations
as the North Koreans tried to return to the North; the soldiers were looking North
and being shot in the back (00:34:59:00)
o They considered it a live-combat area and the soldiers on the DMZ received
combat pay just as if they were in Vietnam (00:35:12:00)
In March 1969, Sampson had gone to Hong Kong on vacation in which he had planned to
learn more about Asia when the North Koreans shot down a Navy reconnaissance plane
over North Korea (00:35:44:00)
o The Army called Sampson back to Korea, canceling the vacation, and the men
went into shifts of twelve hours on and twelve hours off (00:36:01:00)
o Sampson called his parents from Japan at a time when it took half an hour to
make a call just to reassure them; all they knew was that the men had gone onto
high alert (00:36:33:00)
o There is no natural barrier between the DMZ and Seoul, so if the North Koreans
came down, then they were going to go straight through Seoul (00:36:38:00)
The base had KATUSAs, Korean soldiers attached to the U.S. Army, and Sampson dealt
with them (00:36:59:00)
He did not have a lot of contact with different commands in the Korean Army; the only
real contact he had with Koreans was when he worked at the YMCA, which was where
the English club of Korean college students met (00:37:11:00)
o There were about thirty-five students, the upper level of Korean students, and he
got to know them and they would invite him into their homes, to the university
and on outings (00:37:35:00)
o The students did not talk a lot about politics; with the structure of government in
the country, the students’ goals were to learn more English, which gave them a
tool (00:38:10:00)
o Sampson learned that Seoul was the political and religious capital of the country
and people would go there for economic reasons; however, if someone learned
English, then they could leave (00:38:31:00)
 The objective was to go from the country to the capital to overseas and
whether someone learned French or English did not matter (00:38:43:00)
o The Korean students knew what they were looking at and they did things to
protect their family; the family was the basic social structure and they never did
anything to ruin the image of the family (00:39:06:00)
Seoul American High School was a typical 1950’s / 60’s high school (00:39:34:00)

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o A number of officers and civilians were stationed in Seoul for two years and when
someone had to live in Seoul for two years, they could bring their families with
them; these were the kids that went to the high school (00:39:44:00)
o At one time, the dorm that Sampson lived in was used to house the students
whose parents were stationed at Kunsan, south of Seoul; eventually, the Army
built a school in Kunsan so the students did not have to commute (00:39:57:00)
o Sampson did not have any contact with the American students (00:40:24:00)
One time, Sampson went with the Korean college students on a picnic to the mountains
(00:40:36:00)
o Other times, he went to the university for a play, to the home of a professor for a
formal dinner, and a James Bond movie which was in English with Korean
subtitles (00:46:45:00)
o The Korean language was interesting because it used a different alphabet from
Chinese or Japanese, which meant different characters (00:41:05:00)
o Sampson learned a little Korean, enough to use the local transportation so that he
could go to downtown Korea (00:41:15:00)
 He was lucky because he is a Christian Scientist and there was a Christian
Scientist Church in downtown Seoul, so he went to services conducted by
a Korean and an Englishwoman (00:41:30:00)
o Sampson got out and did not stay just on the base; he also took some USO tours,
including going to a plastic flower factory and a car factory (00:41:58:00)
o He also took a course from the University of Maryland; the University had an
extension program in Korea with American professors and Sampson took a class
about Asian culture (00:42:21:00)
Sampson did not notice the damages from the Korean War but he did notice the use of
manpower; he would see Koreans walking down the street with an A-frame on their back
and a stack of materials fifteen feet high (00:42:56:00)
Sampson took a lot of pictures during his tour and he learned that photography was
something that eventually became normal for him to do (00:43:32:00)
For his trip to Hong Kong, he flew down on SAS (Scandinavian Airways) (00:43:58:00)
o When he went to the airport for the flight, the plane was sitting down in Taegu,
which meant that the flight did not leave on time; there was fog and the planes
would not fly up near the DMZ (00:44:13:00)
 So, they left late and it rained during the entire flight; they landed at
Taipei to refuel and then went into Hong Kong (00:44:28:00)
o Sampson stayed on Kowloon and while he was there, he signed up for some tours;
he did a small bus tour of Hong Kong island, went to a pier to purchase goods,
etc. (00:44:34:00)
o At that time, Hong Kong was still a British colony and Sampson went to the
British PX to buy souvenirs (00:45:06:00)
o He enjoyed the trip and just wished that he could have gone back when the
weather was nicer (00:45:26:00)
o For the trip, Sampson worked with a lady who worked for the travel bureaus and
she helped set up the trip and rescheduled his trip to Japan (00:45:46:00)

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Sampson had no idea what to do because it was both his first time out of
the country and his first time in Asia; he just wanted to see the country
(00:46:12:00)
Sampson’s trip to Japan was rescheduled to June and he flew from Seoul into Fukuoka;
he stayed there and eventually went over to Beppo by commuter train (00:46:40:00)
o Sampson was with JTB (Japanese Travel Bureau) and they helped him to get in
and out of different tours (00:47:01:00)
o He hooked up with the tour on Beppo and did some things there before taking a
cruise up to Kobe; the tour eventually bused over to Kyoto, the religious capital of
Japan, and they had a tour there as well (00:47:14:00)
o From Kyoto, he took the bullet train to Tokyo, where his travel agent had set up a
hotel; on different days, he had free time which he used to purchase more
souvenirs, which he sent back to Korea, and went to several different places on
tours (00:47:45:00)
 While in Tokyo, he went to a show similar to the Rockettes (00:48:44:00)
 Sampson maximized his time and really felt that he got a lot out of the trip
(00:48:57:00)
o All the souvenirs were sent back to Korea because whenever he left the country,
all his stuff shipped to the United States duty-free; if he shipped them, then he
would have had to pay money (00:49:08:00)
There were sixty-five thousand troops stationed in Korea while Sampson was there and
there was no thought of shipping any of them to Vietnam because Korea was also
considered a hardship tour (00:49:35:00)
o They would send soldiers from Vietnam to Korea for recuperation but never from
Korea to Vietnam (00:49:50:00)
Korea was unique because the was also a UN command next to where Sampson was
stationed; this meant that there was a UN officer that Sampson interacted with
(00:50:12:00)
Sampson was not really following the Vietnam conflict apart from the Stars and Stripes
newspaper (00:50:33:00)
o He gained news from home through letters because there were no telephones or email (00:50:41:00)
o Sampson was more worried about North Korea (00:50:56:00)
They went of field exercises, including moving the entire command south, which they did
once (00:51:03:00)
o Sampson did not always understand the protocol; he was learning as he went
along (00:51:23:00)
o They gave him a book with all the procedures he had to do as an officer but the
other stuff he just learned as he went along (00:51:36:00)
Sampson really enjoyed working with the Korean college students and he also bought a
few books on Korean history and read them, which was nice (00:52:07:00)
One event that stands out was in August 1969, they had reopened tour guides to
Panmunjom and Sampson had the opportunity to sign up; the tour was on a Sunday and
he had to go in uniform (00:52:17:00)

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o Panmunjom was in North Korea, so the tour went through checkpoints and they
went to see where the armistice halting the Korean conflict was signed
(00:52:37:00)
o It was still an armed conflict because there was never a peace treaty
(00:53:03:00)
o Being on the grounds of North Korea and where an armistice was very special
because not everyone had ever been in the situation (00:53:12:00)
Around Christmas time, Sampson was able to do something that officers normal did not
get to do, he watched to a Bob Hope show on the television (00:53:37:00)

Return to the United States / Post-Military Life (00:54:04:00)
 Sampson was supposed to leave Korea in the middle of September but his replacement
had not arrived (00:54:04:00)
o They asked him if he would extend his time for a couple of weeks and Sampson
said sure because he had no commitments back in the United States; his next tour
of duty involved a choice by him as where he wanted to go, either Fort Huachuca
in Arizona or back to Fort Monmouth and he chose Fort Monmouth
(00:54:18:00)
o He knew Fort Monmouth and he enjoyed being on the east coast (00:54:40:00)
 During June, the Army asked Sampson if he would extend his tour for ninety days and be
promoted; he was going to get out in March 1970 but as a school teacher, March was not
a good time to get out, so Sampson said “sure” (00:54:53:00)
o Because he was going to be in the service for another year, Sampson was
promoted to captain (00:55:17:00)
 While in Korea, Sampson was also the United Way collector of funds for the G4
(00:55:30:00)
o When he was asking for donations, Sampson met a sergeant who had been
stationed at a Nike missile base in Grosse Pointe Farms, Michigan during the
1950’s, only a mile away from where Sampson lived for five years (00:55:48:00)
o It was a unique situation to talk to someone who had been stationed near where
Sampson had lived (00:56:14:00)
 He finally shipped out from Korea in October along with seven crates and a steamer
trunk of stuff (00:56:26:00)
o All the other stuff was sent to Selfridge Air Force Base in Mt. Clemens, Michigan
and it was trucked over to his home in Birmingham (00:56:41:00)
 Sampson was not at home when it arrived and his father wondered what
he had been doing (00:56:50:00)
o He had gone on to his new station at Fort Monmouth and he wanted to teach at
the school but he did not have enough time left, so they made him the S4 of the
signal brigade, the logistics officer, which was an interesting job (00:56:55:00)
o This was the time when things were dicey with the public because of the situation
in Vietnam; the men were cautioned as to where they should wear their uniforms
(00:57:32:00)
o When he flew out of Korea in October, Sampson left at 10:30 in the morning,
local time, and arrived back in the United States at 5:30 in the morning on the
same day (00:58:56:00)

�









From Seattle, he got on a plane and flew back to Michigan and arrived at
6:30 in the morning, again, on the same day (00:58:24:00)
 He had flown across the International Date Line; going to Korea, he lost a
day and coming back, he stayed on the same day (00:58:31:00)
There were a lot of protests going on at the time and the men did not know what the
statuses were of the different officers on the base (00:58:45:00)
o Sampson did not have any feeling about the protestors because he was about the
business he was in; being an officer meant that he was volunteer (00:59:20:00)
 Because he was an officer, when the draft did occur in the 1960s, his draft
number was eighteen; if he was not an officer, he was going to be in the
service (00:59:29:00)
o Unbeknownst to him when he was getting out, Sampson had been an officer for
five years and he still had a year of service but he did not have to go to meetings
(00:59:52:00)
His commitment of active duty ended in June 1970 (01:00:04:00)
o The typical commitment for an officer is six years, so when they counted time in
grade and Sampson went on active duty in March 1968, he had been an officer for
two years and nine months (01:00:22:00)
 The officers had to either be three years reserve time or eighteen months
of active duty to be promoted from their first grade to their second grade;
Sampson went from 2nd Lieutenant to 1st Lieutenant in June 1968 and then
to captain in September 1969 (01:00:38:00)
 If he wanted to do field grade to major, then Sampson would have had to
go to career school, which included either having to go to ranger school or
jump school; Sampson had no desire to do either one because if he stayed,
then he would have to become a regular officer, not a reserve officer
(01:00:54:00)
o Three years after he got out of the service, when the Vietnam conflict ended, the
Army let go of nine thousand officers and at that time, the men did not receive
any type of pension from the military unless they had twenty-four years of service
(01:01:16:00)
Sampson checked out of the military when he wanted to (01:01:46:00)
o He was working at a summer camp at the time and he briefly looked at going into
military intelligence; it would have been a summer camp and then once a month
and was based out of Detroit because Sampson was teaching at Bloomfield Hills
at the time (01:01:55:00)
o He waited but eventually decided to go for a second masters because he could not
become a school administrator without a Masters degree in administration
(01:12:15:00)
Sampson taught at Bloomfield Hills for five years while doing an administrative
internship; he got a Masters in administration from Wayne State University and after he
had the degree, he was in the position to look for an administrative job (01:02:43:00)
o He eventually got a job as an administrator at East Kentwood High School, where
he spent the next twenty-seven as an administrator (01:02:58:00)

�






o When he moved to take the job in 1975, Sampson decided to go for a PhD in
school administration, which he got from the University of Michigan after four
years (01:03:08:00)
 His specialty was facility planning, how to renovate and build facilities
and he believes some of this came from his training in logistics
(01:03:23:00)
o He enjoyed the job and working the engineers and architects (01:03:31:00)
o The total cost of his higher education was five hundred dollars for his PhD
because the GI Bill paid for everything else (01:03:42:00)
Because of his upbringing and the work ethic that his parents instilled in him and his two
sisters, the military showed him a certain type of structure and things that he wanted to do
and things he did not want to do (01:04:29:00)
o He felt that he had to give his best every day, no matter the situation was
(01:04:49:00)
o The training also taught him about computers which helped him get the job at
East Kentwood; at the time, they were going to computerized scheduling and
there were not a lot of people around who had any knowledge of computers at all
(01:05:04:00)
Sampson taught in what he considers two of the best school systems; both Bloomfield
Hills and East Kentwood were outstanding (01:05:45:00)
Being over in Korea did a couple of things for Sampson (01:06:03:00)
o First, it made him realize how hard people work to move forward (01:06:07:00)
o Second, he learned it was not whether he was right or wrong, it was just that
things were different over there (01:06:16:00)
o He also learned about a culture that was totally different from western culture,
such as how they communicate and relate to each other (01:06:30:00)
The opportunities that someone gets out of the service comes from how much they want
to give; a person can make it a great experience no matter where they are or they can
make it a disheartening experience (01:07:02:00)

�</text>
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                    <text>Culture Wars – Does God Take Sides?
From the series: Heroes in Clay: Samuel
Text: I Samuel 8:19-20; Matthew 5:45
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
November 15, 1992
Transcription of the spoken sermon
… we are determined to have a king over us, so that we also may be like other nations… I
Samuel 8:19-20
… God makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on righteous and on the
unrighteous. Matthew 5:45

Last evening on the evening news there was a brief bit of the heavyweight
championship fight of the night before and of Riddick Bowe who delivered the
telling blow to Vander Holyfield. “I won,” said Bowe, “because God was on my
side.” Now that’s really dumb! One guy beats up another, makes him bloody and
says, “God’s on my side.” But it’s really only the extreme of what we all do at one
time or another. We get in a conflict or a debate, or a discussion or we get into
something that deeply divides and we do our best to make sure that God is on our
side. We make the claim and Samuel made that claim too. Samuel believed that
God was on his side - or maybe, in all fairness to Samuel, I should say that
Samuel believed that he was on God’s side.
Samuel was one of the great leaders of ancient Israel – a good man, a man of
integrity and of spiritual depth. He had been one of the judges of Israel at the end
of that historical period we call the time of the Judges. Israel was a tribal
confederacy at the time following the conquest of Canaan under Joshua. It was
that period of time in which Israel lived as a kind of loosely confederated group of
tribes. They would, when a crisis arose, rise up together for a common defense.
They believed that God would, at a decisive moment, raise up a charismatic
leader who could rally the tribes together. Then, when the crisis had passed and
the battle won, they would go back and do their farming again in their respective
tribal territories. They were a tribal confederacy.
We can understand that because we had thirteen colonies at one time or thirteen
states that were in a confederacy. A confederacy is a kind of government where
the independent units maintain a certain amount of autonomy, but they feel the
need for a certain amount of centralizing and organizing power for such things as
common defense, etc. If you remember your ninth grade civics class, at least a
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hundred years ago it was called the United States Civics class, you learned there
about how the Confederacy moved into a strong central government. Wasn’t it
Alexander Hamilton who wrote the “Federalist Papers” and argued the case for
the strong centralization of power? Well, that’s exactly what was going on in
Israel at the time.
Samuel had been an excellent judge and a great spiritual leader. As long as you
have a towering figure, the old forms and structures survive somehow because
such a figure as a Samuel commands such trust and respect. But we are told in
the eighth chapter of I Samuel that Samuel is old and his sons are not following in
his footsteps, and so the elders of Israel, (kind of the leading citizens, I suppose)
come to Samuel. I hope they were a little more sensitive than the text says. It
says, “You’re old.” It can be a difficult thing, you know, growing old. You don’t
need somebody to remind you! Somebody comes up to Samuel and says, “You’re
old. And your sons aren’t doing well. Give us a king.” Samuel was displeased.
These people were about to fall into the same trap from which they had so long
ago escaped in Egypt. The Hebrews had vowed they needed no king but God. So
he prayed to the Lord, and the Lord said, “Yes, I understand you are displeased,
but recognize they are not rejecting you. They are rejecting me and I am used to
it. This has been going on since the very day I brought them out of Egypt. Listen
to the people. Give them what they want.” However, Samuel warned them what
they were in for. Then we come to the ninth chapter and it is as though we are
reading a totally different account, because now we have Saul in the picture. God
speaks to Samuel and he says, “Tomorrow there is a young man who is going to
come. His name is Saul. I have appointed him to be a king and I want you to
anoint him, etc.” And very interestingly, in the ninth chapter and the sixteenth
verse, the Lord says, “Anoint him to be ruler over my people Israel. He shall save
my people from the hands of the Philistines, for I have seen the affliction of my
people because their outcry has come to me.”
Now here in the ninth chapter you have another source. You have another
perspective. You’ve got another understanding of things. Here, very much
parallel to Moses, you have God coming to Samuel and saying, “This man is going
to be my answer to meet the affliction and suffering of my people Israel. Anoint
him. Appoint him. He will be my instrument in response to the cry of my people.”
God said, “The cry of my people has risen to me and I am going to do something
for them.” The words are very similar to the ones spoken to Moses at the burning
bush. In the ninth chapter, after that rather discouraging beginning about the
initiative for a king, it seems as though God is on the bandwagon now and it is
God who is doing this thing. God is saying, “I am going to move this tribal
confederacy into monarchy in order to meet the needs of the immediate
situation.” Well, that whole section meanders between these two points of view.
You have, we’ll call it, the Samuel source, the source that speaks for the old
tradition, the covenantal community. And you have the Saul source, which
reflects the view of those who want to move into something new, into some new
social organization in order to meet the exigencies of the time. Both sides are sure

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that God is on their side. Neither side is pure. None of us is ever pure. No faith
conviction of ours is without some measure of vested interest. You can count on
that.
Now I think Samuel was genuinely upset about the undercutting of that ancient
covenant community where a people was gathered into a community, not
through political alignment or economic philosophy or ethnic purity, but out of a
common trust in God. But I also think he was hurt. He felt rejected. And those
who were seeing where Israel had to go had a concern for the well being of Israel,
but I think probably there were also the ones who had been able to accrue some
considerable bank accounts here and there and they really wanted some kind of
security system. They wanted to take the bull by the horns and make sure that the
accumulated wealth and positions they had acquired would somehow or other be
secure. They wanted to be like other nations where a king could help maintain an
army and a measure of stability. So there is always that mixture.
What’s going on here? Well, I suppose it’s a culture war. I don’t know who
introduced the phrase “culture war,” but I do know that it came into prominence
in this past political campaign. Pat Buchanan at the Republican Convention
spoke about being at war for the soul of this nation. And out of the campaign has
come an accentuation of that polarization of our society. If we look back to Israel
we can see that polarization and culture divide wasn’t devised in the 1990s; it’s
not a 20th-century phenomena. It has been going on forever. Then, there were
two visions of what Israel was to be. There were two visions of what the identity
and the mission and the nature of the community ought to be. They were at odds.
They were at cultural war with each other.
It’s really interesting that in the biblical account you don’t have one setup as the
right way and the other way as the wrong way, but you have a weaving together of
these two positions. Now in the old way that we used to read the Bible, and the
old way I used to preach the Bible, frankly, I would have had to iron out those two
undissolvable knots of material. I would have had to make one be subservient to
the other. I would not have been able to recognize that a biblical writer might
have left in there, intentionally, an unresolved tension. The biblical writer is no
fool! He didn’t just cut and paste and put things together. It is intentional. As he
looks back on Israel’s history, the tensions and conflicts and the movement that
made them what they were and what they became, he is trying to see the way in
which the uncanny presence of God moves in the unsettled, unstable,
unpredictable human, historical situation.
It is a marvelous study of how Israel became the nation that it was and the writer
in retrospect portrays both sides of the issue for us so that we could see these
tensions that existed within this ancient people of God. There have always been
those who have clung to old values--What shall we call them? Shall we call them
the orthodox? Or conservatives? There have always been those who have felt that
new times demand new solutions. That growing explosion of knowledge and new

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understanding in insights call for new arrangements. What shall we call them?
Progressives? Liberals, maybe? There have always been those who have looked to
the past in order to secure the present and the future. And there have been those
on the other hand who, looking to the future, have recognized the necessity of
scuttling the past as a straightjacket.
In which camp would you have been? Would you have put your arm around
Samuel and said, “You’re right, old boy. Things are going to pot and there may
not even be a future if those radicals have their way. Everything is going to pot.
No more morality. No more spirituality. No more God. Secularism. Secular
humanism, etc.” Or would you have been one of the lobbyists who were pushing
for the king and would you have said, “Look, the future is here. And the new
situation demands that we move out of this inherited confederacy that has served
its time. It’s time for a new form and a new structure to carry out into the future
in order that we can be all that God would have us be.” Where would you have
been? Let’s have an election. Shall we have another election? You can cast your
vote.
Why is it even important to look at this? In this fascinating biblical narrative,
seeing these tensions, we might get a word of enlightenment for the present
situation in our own nation and society. For we are a nation deeply divided. We
are a society that is polarized and poisoning each other, and everybody claims
that God is on his or her side. There is a kind of conflict of moral vision about
what this nation ought to be, and what kind of society God is calling us to be. And
moral vision held with passion sometimes becomes violent. There is name-calling
and acrimony, and there is division and adversarial spirit - a kind of polarization
that fragments society and makes civil and rational discourse almost impossible.
So I think that it may well be that in this narrative we have some help to
understand how we should negotiate these times.
When I was at Brandeis three weeks ago I met Professor James Davison Hunter. I
didn’t know at the time that he had authored a book which was reviewed in the
October Perspectives, entitled by the way, Culture Wars. I picked up a copy a
couple of weeks ago in New York. His focus is the struggle to define America making sense of the battles over the family, art, education, law and politics. It is
an excellent study. James Hunter is an evangelical Christian, and he is an
excellent sociologist. So I find this a very intelligent survey of what’s going on in
our nation - the things that are tearing our society apart. I would recommend it to
you. Culture Wars. He uses the phrase, and he points out the perils in which our
society stands: the potential fragmentation and the potential for the breakdown
of all discourse, which of course, is so essential for a democratic society. As we
look at the biblical account, might it not help us simply to recognize in the first
place that these tensions are endemic to the human situation? So you’re
orthodox. That’s good! But that’s not all. And so you are a wild-haired liberal.
That’s great! But it’s not the whole picture. The one who clings to ancient values
and the one who reaches for that which is new and untested need each other. In a

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healthy society there will be a creative tension with a strong enough center to
hold people together. But I think it is simply important first of all to recognize,
not despair, and not throw up our hands as though it is the end of the world.
We didn’t invent this kind of polarization. Maybe the mass media, and the
television, and the sound bite, maybe that accentuates, maybe that polarizes and
divides us more than in earlier times. I think that is probably true. But,
nonetheless, we have to learn to live with that and to work with that. If you are
conservative and orthodox, you have every right to be thus. And it is your
responsibility to hold to values that are tried and true, and to make sure that the
treasures of the past are not lost. Yours is a good voice, but it’s not the only voice.
And if you are always champing at the bit, and always on the growing edge trying
to break through to something not yet jelling, then, bless you! Keep everything
unsettled and unstable. Be a nudging discomforter, but recognize that there are
perils out there. As old Samuel said, “You are going to get your king, and you are
going to get yours.” What we need in a healthy society is an acceptance of the
legitimate and authentic tension that rests within any community of people.
I like the way God is portrayed in this whole narrative. I think that I would have
to say that God is kind of a grudging progressive. That I say without bias. (Oh,
come on. Where’s your humor!) [Laughter] He says to Samuel, “Samuel, you’re
right. You’re right.” I think the narrative is saying, “You can’t give up traditional
values without some significant loss, but the nature of the historical experience is
such that you have to keep moving on. Yes, they’ve rejected me. But listen to the
people. Warn them, but listen to them. Give them their king. No arguing. No
pouting. No raging. No manipulation. No coercion.” God seems to be able to
handle that which is threatening to so many of us. God seems to be confident
about the future and God’s ability to cope with the future regardless of which
alternatives are chosen.
And then I love this in Samuel’s farewell speech in the 12th chapter. The people
are rather humbled at this point, and they say, “Pray to God for us.” And Samuel
could say this to them, “For the Lord will not cast away his people, for his great
name sake, because it has pleased the Lord to make you a people for himself.”
Don’t you love that? Isn’t that the kind of God that you could worship? Samuel
can say, “Look, this isn’t some petulant, petty, capricious deity. This is Almighty
God. This is the Creator of the heavens and earth. This is the One who has created
us in his image, who will not let any of his children go. This God will not abandon
you. This God will not forsake you. Stop quivering in your boots. Trust God. God
forbid that I should cease to pray for you. And I will continue to instruct you in
the way you should go.”
And then if you follow the story on, there is also this - that as there is this normal,
inevitable kind of movement, the values of the old tend to get incorporated into
the vision of the new. Samuel anointed Saul king, and the new was here. But
Samuel said, “Saul, buddy, don’t think you’re a sovereign, an absolute like all

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those puppet kings around you. Saul, you’re just another citizen before the
eternal, sovereign God.” And you know the thing that made Israel unique? Even
when it became a monarchy, it was the fact that its king always trembled before
the prophet - that its king knew that he was accountable and that he had no
absolute sway, but must always regard the ways of righteousness and justice, and
seek the ways of peace. The old values - the community and tribal confederacy in
covenant with God – that somehow or other got laced into the monarchy, so that
when we reach Chapter 16 we have David. We have the ideal king and it would
seem for all the world that God always intended that there would be such a
kingdom and there would be such a king - the Golden Age. Samuel wouldn’t have
dreamed that it could be so good.
I read from the Sermon on the Mount this morning because it seems to me that
as God’s people we are called to that kind of posture and spirit and attitude. I
think one of the great problems in our present social unrest is the fact that we
have politicized things that cannot be politicized. You cannot legislate morality.
You cannot legislate spirituality. The things that tear us apart - abortion,
homosexuality, a National Endowment for the Arts, family values - those trigger
words set off emotions and generate a lot of heat and very little light. They are not
things that the government really can handle. Those are the things for us the
people of God to deal with. We, as the people of God, are called to live an
alternative community. Jesus said, “You are the light of the world. You are the
salt of the earth. Light illumines. Salt preserves.” And we are called to be Godlike. The God who causes the sun to shine on the just and the unjust, and causes
the fields of the righteous and the unrighteous alike to be watered with rain and
snow. Jesus final word is “So, be like God.”
The word perfect in the RSV is not a good translation. The word is kellos in
Greek, which is the end or the purpose. Realize that for which God created you.
God created you in God’s image. Be God-like, with a kind of universal
benevolence, with a kind of love and a compassion, a justice and a seeking of love
and fairness, and finally, peace in society. You be different. Don’t let the sound
bites polarize you. When you feel your anger begin to rise, recognize that God is
not on your side. Or rather, God is on your side - and on the side of your
adversary. Have a moral passion, but lace it with humility and express it with
compassion. Simply be God-like. God knows. God can handle this alternative,
that alternative, and another alternative, but if somebody tells you, “This is God’s
way,” don’t you believe him. God is bigger than that, bigger than my vision and
your vision. A vision that embraces us all and calls us all to be civil and
committed, agents of the kingdom that will surely come. Sorry folks, God doesn’t
take sides.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Korean War
Robert Samuels
Length of interview (34:05)
(0:12) Background
Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan 1930 moved to Grandville, Michigan at age 10 (0:29)
Dropped out of high school during 10th grade year (0:46)
Not much recollection of World War II except it ending on radio (1:05)
Worked in construction building houses (1:18)
Joined Marine Corps with friend in 1948 (1:28)
Went to Detroit, Michigan to take a physical before joining (1:43)
(1:43) Active Duty
Took train to Parris Island, South Carolina for basic training (2:09)
Marine Corps buses picked them up from train station (2:30)
Right from the start, yelled at and had to hustle everywhere (3:06)
Didn’t know much about Marine Corps before joining (3:20)
Received weapons training and vigorous physical exercises (4:01)
Trained on M1 Garand rifle (4:20)
Pretty easily adjusted to training, got him inn shape (5:00)
Most of the soldiers were enlisted, not many drafted (5:35)
Sent to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina for water training for six weeks (6:00)
Military Occupation Specialist (MOS) was water supply (25:06)
Learned how to distill salt water and purify fresh water (6:20)
Did several training missions, practiced amphibious landings (7:11)
Assigned to an engineering battalion at Camp Lejeune (8:30)
On free time went to Jacksonville, North Carolina; people didn’t like the marines (9:00)
When he joined the Marines were still segregated (9:10)
Started to desegregate the troops while there; had a black friend (9:55)
(10:15) Korea
In July 1950 told that they were shipping out to Korea (10:33)
With engineering unit until he arrived in San Diego, California (11:37)
Took sixteen days to arrive in Korea; was sea sick whole time (12:13)
Served with Easy Company 2nd battalion 7th Marines in Korea (13:38)
5th marines had landed first so there wasn’t a lot of resistance (14:02)
Always on the move, went to Seoul, Korea to run missions (14:30)
Shipped from Inchon to Wonsan, before heading to North Korea (14:41)
Marched all the way from South Korea up into North Korea (15:07)
Encountered minimal resistance along the way; took several weeks (15:48)
Arrived at Chosin Reservoir and dug in, outnumbered 15:1 (16:44)
Usually before firefight, they were bombarded with mortars (17:23)
Enemy mostly attacked at night; position didn’t hold (18:21)

�Received Browning Automatic Rifle when he joined Easy Company (19:04)
Had some trouble with the rifle, it would jam and have to be cleaned (19:26)
Company mostly held defensive positions against the Chinese (20:30)
Was close enough to Chinese that he could clearly see their faces (29:00)
Felt kind of sorry for the dead Chinese they were mostly children (29:15)
Chinese weapons were very different from the American weapons (29:45)
(20:35) Injury
Due to winter conditions, feet became frostbitten (20:41)
Had good medical care while injured (28:01)
A lot of guys in the hospital had legs taken off due to frostbite (28:34)
Flown out of combat to South Korea (21:03)
Went on hospital ship to Japan and then back state side (21:15)
Still had time to serve, chose to serve in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (22:06)
Served as honors guard for the dead being brought back (22:22)
Seeing all the dead bodies, wondered how he got out alive (23:07)
Barely saw civilian population or South Korean army while in Korea (23:47)
After Philadelphia, went back to camp Lejeune for water supply (24:50)
Stayed there for two years until his honorable discharge (25:33)
Asked to re-enlist for six more years; offered $6000 (25:35)
(25:45) Post Service
Discharged from the Marine Corps in 1952 (26:07)
Worked for a place that built baking equipment until retirement (26:40)
Moved back to the grand rapids area and stayed there for rest of life (27:11)
Hard to readjust to civilian life and took some getting used to (27:30)
Eventually got involved in veteran support groups (32:00)
Not many people were interested in his story and he kept it to himself (32:25)
Joined the legion post and then the Veterans Foreign Wars (VFW) post (32:45)
The Korean war is often known as the forgotten war (33:25)

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Frank Sanborn
(00:44:22)
Hi, Frank, I am Charlie Collins and we are going to do an interview today with you
about your experiences during World War II but more especially we are going to
kind of review your whole life time.
So what is your full name, Frank?
Frank Earl Sanborn
Okay. When were you born? (1:39)
December 20, 1923.
So you was within five (5) days of being a Christmas present?
Right
Do you remember much about going to grade school?
Oh yes. Went I went to school we never got in trouble or nothing. We had fire drills and
so forth and I forgot what year it was we had one Christmas time, I don’t know if you
remember or not, the grass was green, no snow or nothing on the ground back in the
thirties it was.
Frank, where did you go to high school?
Detroit
Do you remember much about your high school experiences? Did you have any
special friends there?
Oh yeah.
What kind of clothes did you wear?
Well it was during hard times so we all wore hand-me-downs
Did you live on a farm or did you live in the city? (2:52)
I lived in the city. If I did something wrong my mother would use an iron cord and it
would bite too you know.

1

�As you went through high school do you remember any special occasions and things
that had happened, like maybe you got in trouble at school?
Oh I never got in trouble too much. My grandfather use to make a
and it was called white lightning you know and what happened one time was he was
making the stuff in the house it kept bubbling on the stove and finally it blew up and he
threw it out
…”oh we got you now!
Do you remember those days?
Yeah I remember those days?
I tell you people use to make home brew
that?

remember

Frank, as you graduated…did you graduate from high school?
Yes.
Did you join the service then? 4:33
I got drafted.
Well, when I was younger I worked at the CCC camp
back in 1937. I think it was. I
a worse outfit
first I worked on road, then
we use to fight forest fires and
you know what they use to do? If I guy
missed a
they would make you wait until supper and make you all sit at a big
table and the guys
what we use to do to the sea captain, we would eat and
when they blowed the whistle, if I was hungry, I would grab the first thing that I could
get. “I’ll break your arm, he says!”
Do you remember what kind of uniforms you wore at the CCC camp?
Oh something like Army almost but it had CCC on the side.
And where all did you go when you was in the CCC camp?
Michigan up there. It is about….it is by Whitefish Bay. You can’t swim up
there in the summer time, it is too cold.
Yes it is? 6:09
The water is about 40 degrees. I can remember we had a forest fire and we were on the
I was about fifty (50) miles from the Sault we didn’t do nothing bad. I served about six
(6) month in the CCC camp. I got out and I didn’t have any job. Finally a guy says,
heh…how would you like to work for me. I got a job as a plumbers helper. see. I can
remember a year or a year and a half, I guess, I don’t remember exactly I got my draft

2

�notice, see, and I told him those people that you know I have to
for a few
people. They said what do you mean…well, I got the draft to go into the service.
So what year was that Frank?
Oh…..I am not too sure but it was close to the 40s I guess.
So you were drafted before Pearl Harbor? 7:25
No…it was just about Pearl Harbor time.
So it would be just about 1941 then?
Yeah. Yeah…do you remember what Roosevelt said? I don’t remember the exact words
but he said
about the Japanese and
Muskegon
the kids all enjoyed it though
So where did you go to boot camp?
Ft. Bragg, NC, you know were you be a paratrooper. I wasn’t worried. I was never
afraid of heights.
So you trained as a paratrooper then?
For a while yeah. I use to
and finally they sent me to an ordnance school.
I use to handle explosives, you now. You want me to tell you how we used to
the
airplanes?
Sure? 8:43
This will make you laugh………we use to take an old mattress
said
that was no place for me to be so I got had to pull KP for several while then I got sent to
the infantry. I said brother, you did me a big favor you know that. Finally well I took
infantry training then and they fired live rounds over me…ya know that and I came back
to the camp where I was at overseas and I said hey, jerk, come here I want to talk to you.
He wouldn’t do it.
That was the Chaplain?
No….no…an officer.
????
Are you an ex-serviceman?
No? 9:53
Well anyway this one guy from he was mean he made my buddies go on the drill field in
90 degrees..95 …..wearing over coats and wool sweaters and all that stuff. I got mad and

3

�the next morning I said, “buddy your day’s coming!” He said, what do you mean? I said
you’ll find out. I got so mad one day
I beat the hell out of him…I did. I
don’t mean to talk that way but …heah I blew my top.
As you finished boot camp, where did you go then?
Well at the time, we went to New York for a while, you know…to school.
What school was it you went to in New York?
It was a trade school, it was communication and so forth.
You learned communication at the school?
Yeah. I could see the Empire State Building from and I went over there. Have you ever
been over there?
No.
That is a thousand feet I guess, and you could see a long way up there. You know this
building people thing when they put a building up it is straight, it has to sway a little bit,
you know why? Otherwise it would make it snap. I don’t because
It kept swaying back and forth than didn’t it? 11:39
Yeah you could see a long way up there. I was in one building in Detroit which was
about five hundred feet (500’) off the ground. I use to get up on a ladder and go up about
forty feet (40’) on the outside. I would make sure see and one morning I remember, my
foreman said to me, “What a beautiful morning.” I said “Yeah sixty mile (60 mile) hour
wind
and when I went up it almost sucked me off the building
I said I will go on home. He said No. After that…it made common sense you know.
And I was washing windows. Someone told me that someone passed me by and I said I
thought they did, but I wasn’t sure. I was up about forty stories up. Some guy jumped
out of the window and hit the sidewalk. I seen what happened. I had to go home that
day. I probably see he hit the cement about six (6) or seven (7) feet …I mean it took a
long time for them to get rid of him. I don’t want to tell you someone said
it turned your stomach.
After you went to school in New York, where did you go then? 13:28
Oh we went back to North Carolina for a while and then we went to New Mexico.
What did you do in New Mexico?
We were pulling guard duty and we were getting

4

�Did you know that when you go to El Paso Texas, it is about 90 miles..the elevation as
you are going along your ears start popping do you know that?
Yeah
People said…ahhh you’re crazy. I said I myself. In the summer time you could
in the summer it was nice but in the mountains
snow.
After you was in Texas, what did you do then? 14:24
Then they had us guard a field and he said I want you guys to go out in the field, way
…out about thirty miles…..and this guy and I ……. he was a coward I swear, do you
know why? There were coyotes out there howling at night………….I couldn’t even
Anyway, I told the sergeant I don’t want him out here with me. I said I didn’t get no
sleep.
Between him and the coyotes..you didn’t get any sleep……(laughing)
No I build a fire...what kind of survival training was that
After your training in Texas, what did you do then?
Well, we were getting our orders to go overseas then. That same sergeant he cried like a
baby. He says you guys hate my guts. I says, yeah. He told a major that these guys are
going to throw me out the window. We had orders not to
When you went over seas, how did you get there?
By boat.
Do you remember the name of the boat or ship? 16:03
All I can remember is it was a British ship. We shipped out of New York…near Staten
Island or some place out there ..or something. A lot of guys were worried. You know
what I told them?
What did you tell them?
I
Boy they looked at me…they could have killed me, I swear…throwed me over board but
you know what happened? We were over the water mark for two (2) weeks and we had
and you would never believe it we had burnt beans think that wasn’t tough
tomatoes and tea and bread
And that is what you had when you went overseas?

5

�Yeah.
Was the trip pretty rough?
Oh it was all right. No radio silences all the way across. No lights on at night. We had to
be careful you know. They could pick you off you know
Did the ship sail straight or did it go in a zig zag pattern?

17:20

I can remember one night we I didn’t know where I was going to go see well then we
went north and then I could see I told him that was Nova Scotia over there. How do you
now? I says, I know. We were about twenty miles out across the ocean we had a
escort us for a while.
Oh they did huh?
Yes We had a big convoy put together and then during the war time they had mines, you
couldn’t see ‘em maybe they were six (6) or seven (7) feet underwater with a big chain
and once and a while we had to shoot at it and blow it up.
You would shoot at the mines and blow them up?
Oh yeah….it had on the sides yeah….
Do you remember where you landed?
Liverpool England
You landed in Liverpool.
I don’t know exactly what time of day but ………we had to take some other training
again. I didn’t think of that. Well…we went on a train, I forget where it was …White
Cliffs of Dover, I guess it was. We were on a Navy ship a crossed the English Channel.
Okay 19:22
I think it was

So now as you was crossing the English Channel was that after “D” Day or was that
during “D” Day battle?
Oh it was after “D” Day….I mean…yeah.
So you arrived on the other side of the channel after “D” day. Where did you go
then?

6

�In the Battle of the Bulge, I served in that too.
You served in the Battle of the Bulge? Can you tell us about that. 20:14
It was winter time then, was it not?
Yeah. I can remember they had like a big hill we went along. Some of the guys got shot
like dogs, you know that. What you going to do I can remember one time I had
in the foxhole with me one time and I had an unusual circumstance. A guy asked me
“Would you shoot me and kill me?” I said, “no!” I just can’t doing it. I would be a
murderer. I would never forget it the rest of my life, you know that. I said, “Hear is a
gun, you do it yourself”…you know. I felt silly. I was liable to kill him. I would have
gotten a dishonorable discharge; I would have went to a federal prison.
That was in a foxhole in the Battle of the Bulge? He got injured bad enough that he
wanted to kill himself.
Yeah. I said you can shoot yourself ; I am not going to do it.
Did he do that?
No. He got better eventually. What got me is. We had a guy, I swear, I don’t care if I
went to France, Germany, England, or anywhere, well we had one guy who was a real
screw up, you know what he said?
What did he do? 21:56
He got in a fight and put somebody through a window and You know what I told him
I kinda looked at him in the face and I said …Oh no not again can’t you just stay out of
trouble one and a while?
Now during the Battle of the Bulge, what Division were you in?
It was the 101st.
Was that one of Rommel’s Divisions? [Ed. note: The interviewer really did ask this.
Rommel was a German general, not American, and was already dead by this time as
well.]
Yeah
So you went on that march with Rommel then in the Battle of the Bulge? Tell me
about that.

7

�We went on……it wasn’t no picnic you know….I just said to myself, why am I here we
had “K” rations and stuff you know and I see kids that were hungry over there and I gave
my Spam or something.
I bet that was food to eat then wasn’t’ it?
Boy that was rough to it. Actually you ate “K” rations. It was too bad, but if you had
You were in trouble.
You were in real trouble then….(laughing)
If you had false teeth, it would probably break ‘em.
Fortunately back then you didn’t have false teeth. 23:51
You know what we use to do. Before you go in …..a…combat, you use to pull your teeth
out, put then in a case….I didn’t see it but I heard about it. What they would do would be
to right away. Did you ever hear of that?
No I had never heard that. As you were in the Battle of the Bulge, where did you go
after that? Did you follow the march into Germany? Can you tell us what kind of
towns and terrains you went through?
I went to Cologne, Heidelberg and places like that.
Was you in the infantry at that time?
Oh yeah.
Did you go with the tanks and so on? How did you get to these places?
Well, I was a foot soldier.
You were a foot soldier.
Did you encounter any battles during that time in Stuttgart and those towns?
25:03
It wasn’t like in the west you know. Those guys were sitting ducks out there you know.
But we use to do over in Germany, we use to pull a raid up on then about 4 o’clock in the
morning. We would shake the buildings all down with heavy ammunition and guns. We
check all the buildings though. I can remember a guy was radio was come see…come
sah…come see….com sah……he said
After your travels in to Germany, do you recall the “VE” Day? Victory in Europe
Day?

8

�Oh yes.
Where were you then?
You was in Heidelberg at the time Germany surrendered?
Yeah and that was a beautiful feeling, you know that. Talking about “VE” Day, I can
remember I seen planes by the thousands.
So as “VE” Day happened, what did you do then? 27:01
Well we had occupation for a while then.
You stayed in Germany as an occupation troop?
Yeah
During the time that was going on, what did you do there?
Well, I use to cook for a while. I didn’t mind that. I use to say to myself, why did this
have to happen, you know. It was so bad, I seen kids eating out of garbage cans, you
know that. It touched my heart.
Yes it would, wouldn’t it?
Oh yes. I can remember some guys
We have a
We were standing around for a while. I told them, we’re not going to hurt you. They
thought we were all murderers, you know that. We did alone.
Do you recall where you were when the war was over in Japan?

28:32

I was in Germany.
You were still in Germany? Did you hear about the atomic bombs being dropped?
Well they told us. We didn’t know about it until afterwards. We all a couple of guns up
in the air and started shooting straight up, you know…..
Had a little celebration.
As the war was over and you were in Germany. How long did you stay in Germany
as one of the occupying forces?
About three ______.

9

�You stayed that long? During that period of time, what did you do?
Well, I learned a trade.
You learned a trade again? And what was that? 29:31
Well,

it was

During your occupation time, how did the Germans react and how did they treat
you?
They hated us for a while you know. I can remember some kids were over there fishing.
They use to use safety pins to catch fish. You know how we solved that?
How did you do that?
I threw four hand granades in the water and knocked the fish right out. If I tried that over
there they would probably throw me in jail, you know that.
They probably would, yes sir.
I can remember, they had down in the water, there was about three (3) bushels of fish
come up. The kids were grabbing them. Thank you…….I said sure. I don’t sound
you know that?
Frank, as you left Germany and came back to this country, do you remember what
year it was? 30:46
I can remember from Germany, I forgot what they were, we took a convoy it was a long
way over 200 miles and we went and it was clay and dirt and muddy. We got on the
boat and it was we could believe there was a storm blowing like a gale, we had to stay at
the dock for a week you know.
So you stayed right there at the dock for a week while you road out this storm?
Yeah and then one guy
Yes, it does get rough out there in a storm.
I can remember we went by Spain on one side and we could put fuel on the boat
it took over nine (9) hours to load the boat full of fuel
And what was it, a diesel ship. Was it a ship powered by diesel engines?

10

�I don’t know but that stuff was put was guess it is pre-heated. It took us all the way a
crossed the ocean for two weeks.
Now on your trip back a crossed the ocean was the weather after you road out the
storm smooth? 32:44
Oh some times it was smooth and sometimes it was rough you know.
Did you happen to get seasick?
No. I got bored one day and I says, I got tired of looking at the water so I went down to
the engineer room and helped them.
You helped them in the engine room.
You know what they said to me? What did they say? They said go get a nice meal,
take anything you want and they said, do you want a drink. I said I don’t drink. You see
when I ate the food sicker than a dog. And they wanted to give me
that tells you how much they drink. A couple of them
As you came back from Germany, where did you go then?
We went across the ocean and when I got back, it was the day before Christmas Eve.
You got back just before Christmas Eve. Do you remember what year it was?
No. I can remember……
How did the ship smell ..do you remember that? 34:24
No. you’d better get out of the way, you now what I mean
(did understand anything of this conversation)

On arriving back in this country, where were you stationed then?
We can into Chesapeake Bay then. I over the boat one day before that we had
inspection to make sure everything was okay. I made a pig of myself I had all the ice
cream, potato chips, I got sick out of it you know that.
You got sick on ice cream and potato chips.
They had a nice meal for us you know. A lot of guys got sick
Did you stay in the service then?

11

�No. they wanted me sign over. I told them I wasn’t home much. I got a job waiting for
me.
Now you went back then to Detroit?
Yeah.
And where did you live? Were your married at that time, Frank?
No. It was during war time, a lot of women wanted to get married to the guys while they
are in service. Do you know about that?
No tell me about it.
Well, if he dies, they get the benefits. I can remember Johnny he went. He went in front
of the firing squad and he told the guys, “Do a good job the first time.” It was heart
breaking you know.
I bet it was. 37:04
Some of the guys you know what touched me though, his wife went after all those war
years, she didn’t get a dime.
Really?
Did you hear about that? That was probably worth a million dollars.
But you didn’t get any of it? Why because on account of him?
I felt sorry for her. She didn’t live very long after that.
After you were discharged from the service and you came back to Detroit, what did
you do?
I use to be a plumber’s helper. I worked on these high rise buildings and I knew a lot
about car too you know. I never was lazy. I tell you what they keep you in the dark
about a lot of stuff, you know that.
Sure they do. Well they don’t want you to learn too much or you’ll get their job.
38:29
and ballcock. I needed a new ballcock, right? Well those two (2) take it off. You go to
the hardware store and get a washer for about fifteen cents (.15) and it would be as good
as new.

12

�There you go. During your time that you were in the service, did you make any
friendships that was lasting.
Oh yes, I can remember one time over in Germany when I was pulling guard duty, the
guys says, Heh… I said.He come on you seeso it was dark, I stood to one side where the
bushes were. I made him put up his hands and I says, “halt” I made him drop his gun. I
make him march to company headquarters. The sergeant says, ike hell… you’re a liar.
Heh, I never had no more trouble with that.
Yes, I bet you didn’t. After you were discharged and came back to Detroit, did you
see any of the fellows that you were in the service with?
Well there was some about ten (10) or twelve (12) years after the war time. I can
remember I was only out of the service not even a week or two (2), a guy tapped me
and you know what I did? I cold cocked him. I will tell you something else, I was
sitting with my mother one time. You know we had ice blocks behind the refrigerator
you know. And I forgot where I was at see, I got up. And and I told my mother I would
myself.
Did you join any of the veteran organizations after you got back? 41:02
Oh yeah…the American Legion.
How about the VFW?
No.
Just the American Legion then?
These guys that served in Viet Nam I think they got a raw deal you know.
I think they did too.
They called them baby killers and murderers and what have you. People use to spit in the
face. You ask the guys from Viet Nam
by the river
Did you take any schooling when you got back on the GI bill? 41:53
I worked on the GI Bill. Yeah. I got paid for that you know.
Sure.
I wasn’t sorry. I could show you some short cuts on math if you want me to.
Well, Frank, when did you get married?

13

�I waited a while. I was 35 years old…..
You were 25 or 35 years old? 42:27
35 and I tell you what, my wife was a nice person for a while. She got with the wrong
crowd. She started drinking. I was working washing windows and a man come over
there how come I didn’t get paid? I said, well I gave my wife the money
if you get your wages guaransheed I said fire me then. You now what I told my
creditors? I said, “If I get fired, I am not going to get another job and you’ll never get a
dime out of me.” So they went along with me. I worked two (2) jobs. I did pay them off
eventually. all before my name was mud. My wife caused me a lot of grief and hardship,
I swear. I had a little money in the bank and all. I said, I don’t want to know what she’s
got. Give her a chance….I gave her seven (7) changes. I couldn’t take anymore. I had a
boy and a girl. You now that she is sorry for what she did though. I beat the hell out of a
guy. I had to a lot of crap for her you know.You now I miss her. Her mother use to hen
peck her husband. You know what hen peck is you know.
Yes I do.
Frank, how long have you been in the home here?
About nine (9) years.
And do you like it?
Oh yeah, I made a lot of friends here.
You made a lot of friends here. 44:22
When some of the guys got sick and they choked, I helped them out.
Good. Well, Frank it has been an enjoyable time and we appreciate your efforts
and all the traveling we had to do this morning.
This makes me hungry.
Could I ask you a question?
Sure.

14

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                  <text>Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. </text>
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              <name>Coverage</name>
              <description>The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant</description>
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                  <text>1910s-2010s</text>
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            <element elementId="48">
              <name>Source</name>
              <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
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                  <text>Various</text>
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              <name>Rights</name>
              <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="775843">
                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/"&gt;Copyright Undetermined&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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            </element>
            <element elementId="49">
              <name>Subject</name>
              <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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                  <text>Michigan</text>
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                <elementText elementTextId="778569">
                  <text>Saugatuck (Mich.)</text>
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                <elementText elementTextId="778570">
                  <text>Douglas (Mich.)</text>
                </elementText>
                <elementText elementTextId="778571">
                  <text>Michigan, Lake</text>
                </elementText>
                <elementText elementTextId="778572">
                  <text>Allegan County (Mich.)</text>
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                  <text>Beaches</text>
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                  <text>Sand dunes</text>
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                  <text>Outdoor recreation</text>
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            <element elementId="45">
              <name>Publisher</name>
              <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan</text>
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              <name>Contributor</name>
              <description>An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource</description>
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                  <text>Saugatuck-Douglas History Center</text>
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              <name>Identifier</name>
              <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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                  <text>Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)</text>
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              <name>Format</name>
              <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
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                <elementText elementTextId="775848">
                  <text>image/jpeg</text>
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                  <text>application/pdf</text>
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              <name>Type</name>
              <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
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                  <text>Image</text>
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                  <text>Text</text>
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              <name>Language</name>
              <description>A language of the resource</description>
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                <elementText elementTextId="775850">
                  <text>English</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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            <element elementId="40">
              <name>Date</name>
              <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="775851">
                  <text>2018</text>
                </elementText>
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      <name>Still Image</name>
      <description>A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.</description>
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          <element elementId="43">
            <name>Identifier</name>
            <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="791343">
                <text>DC-07_SD-70s-coll_0033</text>
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          <element elementId="39">
            <name>Creator</name>
            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="791344">
                <text>Armstrong, Joe</text>
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            <name>Title</name>
            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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                <text>Sand Dunes Near Goshorn Lake</text>
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          <element elementId="41">
            <name>Description</name>
            <description>An account of the resource</description>
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                <text>Black and white photograph featuring rolling sand dunes covered with patchy dunegrass and the forest line in the distance. The handwriting on the back of the photograph reads: "Dunes near Goshorn Lake." There is a stamp underneath which reads: "Saugatuck-Douglas Chamber of Commerce, Saugatuck, Michigan." In the bottom left-hand side there is a stamp which reads: "Joe Armstrong, Allegen, Michigan." </text>
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          <element elementId="37">
            <name>Contributor</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="791347">
                <text>Saugatuck-Douglas Chamber of Commerce</text>
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          <element elementId="49">
            <name>Subject</name>
            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
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                <text>Michigan</text>
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                <text>Saugatuck (Mich)</text>
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                <text>Allegan County (Mich)</text>
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                <text>Sand dunes</text>
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                <text>Black-and-white photography</text>
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          </element>
          <element elementId="48">
            <name>Source</name>
            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="791353">
                <text>Digital file contributed by the Saugatuck Douglas History Center as part of the Stories of Summer project.</text>
              </elementText>
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            <name>Relation</name>
            <description>A related resource</description>
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                <text>Stories of Summer (project)</text>
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          <element elementId="47">
            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="791356">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/"&gt;Copyright Undetermined&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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          </element>
          <element elementId="51">
            <name>Type</name>
            <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
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                <text>Image</text>
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          </element>
          <element elementId="42">
            <name>Format</name>
            <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="791358">
                <text>image/jpeg</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="44">
            <name>Language</name>
            <description>A language of the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="791359">
                <text>eng</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="45">
            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="1032634">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
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        <src>https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fe7922cc38f65fb8c7ee034355cbe43b.jpg</src>
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          <name>Dublin Core</name>
          <description>The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.</description>
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            <element elementId="50">
              <name>Title</name>
              <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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                <elementText elementTextId="920805">
                  <text>Robert H. Merrill photographs</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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            <element elementId="39">
              <name>Creator</name>
              <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="920806">
                  <text>Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955</text>
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            <element elementId="40">
              <name>Date</name>
              <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
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                <elementText elementTextId="920807">
                  <text>1909/1950</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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            <element elementId="48">
              <name>Source</name>
              <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="920808">
                  <text>Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222)</text>
                </elementText>
              </elementTextContainer>
            </element>
            <element elementId="47">
              <name>Rights</name>
              <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="920809">
                  <text>In Copyright</text>
                </elementText>
              </elementTextContainer>
            </element>
            <element elementId="43">
              <name>Identifier</name>
              <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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                  <text>RHC-222</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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            <element elementId="41">
              <name>Description</name>
              <description>An account of the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
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                  <text>Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner &amp; Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. </text>
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      <name>Still Image</name>
      <description>A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.</description>
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        <description>The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.</description>
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          <element elementId="43">
            <name>Identifier</name>
            <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="938533">
                <text>Merrill_NE_57_1924_004</text>
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          <element elementId="40">
            <name>Date</name>
            <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="938534">
                <text>1924-05-18</text>
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          </element>
          <element elementId="50">
            <name>Title</name>
            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
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                <text>Sand Lakes back of Highland Lodge</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="41">
            <name>Description</name>
            <description>An account of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="938536">
                <text>Black and white photograph of a lake behind trees. A river attached to the lake is visible across from the photographer. "Sand Lakes Back of Highlands Lodge" is written on the bottom of the image.</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="49">
            <name>Subject</name>
            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="938537">
                <text>Kent County (Mich.)</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="48">
            <name>Source</name>
            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="938539">
                <text>Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222)</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="47">
            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="938541">
                <text>In Copyright</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="51">
            <name>Type</name>
            <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
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                <text>Image</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="42">
            <name>Format</name>
            <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="938543">
                <text>image/jpg</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
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          <element elementId="44">
            <name>Language</name>
            <description>A language of the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="938544">
                <text>eng</text>
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          <element elementId="39">
            <name>Creator</name>
            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="987379">
                <text>Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
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            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="1035623">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
        </elementContainer>
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  </item>
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