840 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac620a5c7458838907cdf2c4de25efa2.mp4 65bbdadab15fe252a907d1a461d01c47 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f9c7fd9c34c5084e06cee08ba358552.pdf 8c174e21af3ec005d8999fbb401aecff PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Dave Thrasher Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Dave Thrasher of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay, Dave, start us off on some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born on the 19th of May in 1953 in Detroit, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay, and did you grow up in Detroit, or did you move around? Veteran: We spent—I spent my first seven years in Detroit. When I was 3, my father passed away, and then at 7, my mom remarried and then we moved to Iron Mountain, Michigan, because that’s where he was from. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we were up there until I was 10, because unlike what people think today, businesses were moving out of this country even back then. The only two businesses in that area were the foundry and the Ford plant and they both moved to Canada. So, my stepdad moved back to Detroit once he found a job. We relocated back there until I went in the service. Interviewer: Okay. And did you graduate from high school? Veteran: Yes, I graduated from Holy Redeemer High School in Detroit, Michigan. Interviewer: In what year? �Veteran: 1971. Interviewer: Okay. And then what did you do after you got out of high school? Veteran: I went to work at Cadillac Body Plant, Detroit, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay, now you’re doing this at a time when the Vietnam War is going on, and there’s a draft going on. How much attention were you paying to that? Veteran: I paid quite a bit because I had several cousins that were over there. I basically come from a military family. And—in fact, at that time I had 5 cousins that were actually in country. (00:02:08) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I did pay a lot of attention. Interviewer: Alright. And did you consider at that point just going ahead and enlisting, or were you just going to take your chances and see what happened? Veteran: At that point, it was—I was kind of undecided. Having the military family background, you know, one side of me is thinking but I am also thinking, you know, I do have some relatives over there…Maybe I should wait. But, then when the last draft lottery had me going anyway, I sat down and thought about it and talked with my stepdad, and we figured that you know, if I am going in, I might as well do it myself so there’s—I can get something out of it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Not just be a grunt for two years. Interviewer: Alright. So, when did you make that decision? �Veteran: I actually made that decision in November of ’72. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I was still working at the factory at that time, and I started the process of going on a leave of absence. Then I spoke with all four service recruiters, and the Marine Corps recruiter was the most fair of the bunch. Interviewer: Okay, and what do you mean by that? Veteran: He didn’t try to sell a bill of goods like a used car salesman. He basically asked me a few questions, he asked me if, you know, if I had any family in the military. I told him yes. He didn’t ask specifics. And he pulled out information on the Marine Air Wing and the Marine groundside and had me go through it. He said if you have any questions, ask. And then, so I told him I would like to go in the Air Wing and he says the only thing I can do is I can guarantee you the Air Wing on the contract. What job you end up with is entirely up to you. You have to earn it. (00:04:07) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So that’s what did it. Interviewer: Alright. But you can go in knowing at that point that you’re not going to be a ground pounder at least. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay, alright. So, you’ve signed up. Now, when do you actually start training? �Veteran: Well I actually took the oath in the Marine Corps Reserves on the 30th of April, 1973. That gave me time to get my family—home situation taken care of, my stuff in storage and all that. And I actually went to bootcamp on the 9th of July, 1973. Interviewer: Okay, and where did you go for that training? Veteran: Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot San Diego, California. Interviewer: Alright, now how did they get you out there? Veteran: They flew us from the Detroit Metro. We flew nonstop from Detroit to LA, and then there was a connecting flight from LA to San Diego. And then when we got off the plane, there’s a bus waiting for us that took us right to bootcamp. Interviewer: Okay, and what time of day did you show up? Veteran: I put my feet on those yellow footprints at what the military would say 0 dark 30 in the morning. It was like 3 in the morning. Interviewer: Okay, because that does seem to be a tradition that they have, to bring people in in the middle of the night. Veteran: Sometimes… Interviewer: Well, at least, it had been in the Vietnam era generally. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Almost everyone I’ve talked to did. �Veteran: I think part of that, especially during Vietnam, was, I think, because it was so much anti…They wanted to avoid issues. Let’s get them in quietly and get things going so they don’t have to deal with all the outside influence. Interviewer: Alright, so what happens to you now? You arrive, the bus pulls into the depot, now what happens? Veteran: You get your first indoctrination to the drill instructor. When this Sergeant or Staff Sergeant, in some cases Corporal, comes on board and basically if you’ve ever seen movies like The D.I. or Tribe where they come on and start yelling, yes they do. And you’re on the yellow foot prints, and they do a head count and they make sure everybody showed up, that nobody disappeared. And then they take you to the barracks. That early in the morning, they just take you to the barracks. And then, come about 8 o’clock the next morning, everything starts. You get started fitting for your uniforms, you form up your platoon, because they have a starting number, then four platoons form into a series, and then you have three series. You have a first, second, and third series. And what they do is, it’s teaching you working together but it’s also teaching you competition because each platoon competes against each other. (00:06:50) Interviewer: Mhmm. Now, how much time do they spend just with the processing stuff? Veteran: It’s kind of an ongoing thing, because they start your physical training and they kind of mix it in in the early days, so you’re not just doing all one thing at a time. They’re trying to get you rounded into the military way of life. Interviewer: Okay. But there’s the head shaving and are there— Veteran: Oh, that’s all, that’s immediately that first morning. �Interviewer: Yep, okay. Now, did they have you take tests and things at this point? Veteran: Yes. And what they do is based on those tests is where they will place you when you leave bootcamp. And it doesn’t matter whether it’s groundside or Air Wing, the test will give them kind of a starting point. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and okay so, and then they’re getting you—they get you past all the hair cutting and uniforms and this kind of thing. What does the bootcamp then consist of? Veteran: Well, it consists of physical training. It consists of rifle qualifications because Marine policy: every Marine is a rifleman. Rifle qualifications, they teach you how to defend yourself. They have what’s called pugil sticks that’s teaching you how to use the rifle as a bayonet, with the bayonet on it. They teach that stuff because the first they’re going to tell you is: I am training you to come home. Marine Corps has always had this policy, as small as an organization as it is, we don’t want you dying for your country, let the enemy die for his. You come home. So, one of the theories was that drill instructors were so hard that you’d survive, or when you got in combat, you’d take it out on the enemy what the drill instructor did to you. But it was all designed to keep you as safe as possible. Get you through as much as they can, both physical and mental, to prepare you for what might happen. It may not happen, but they wanted to prepare you as much as they could. (00:09:01) Interviewer: Okay. And how did they go about instilling discipline? Veteran: Marching. If you messed up, then you did push-ups. Or, if it was a platoon thing, you might go out and do, instead of a 3-mile run, maybe it’s a 6-mile run. Something that—what they would do is if one person messed up, there were times they would punish the whole platoon. And �it wasn’t for you to gang up on the one guy, it was to maybe help him get better or maybe this guy needed—I mean, we started out as a platoon of 72, and at some point, at one point, we were down to only 60. Guys had either dropped out or things happened, some good, some not so good. Interviewer: Would some people get hurt, just in the process? Veteran: Yes, that does happen. It’s not as common as what like the news media would try and portray. I am not talking public broadcasting, but back then of course, there was more antimilitary. So, anytime anything happened, it would make it bigger news than what it probably was. But you also had the case, we had one guy in our platoon was the only one in the whole series pre-qual date, to go unqualified. And when he was confronted in front of the squad bay, he basically told the drill instructor that that’s not why God sent him, he sent him to join the Marine Corps to change their evil ways. And then, we never saw that guy again. We don’t know what it—but the drill instructor figured there’s definitely something not right up there, and they— that’s one of the things they’re trying to weed out. You know, you don’t want somebody that’s got problems like that. I mean, it could develop later on, but here this guy is starting this right away so. Whether he was admin discharged or whether maybe he was sent for some reviews and then maybe come to another unit later, I don’t know. They don’t really tell us those things. (00:11:11) Interviewer: Okay, now did you pick up anybody along the way who would maybe cause trouble early then get out— Veteran: Yeah, yeah we actually had a gentleman join our unit. He had gone UA. He had actually left the base in the middle of his training. He had actually gone back home and was living there. Had actually gotten married. And he sat down one day and realized, you know, one �of these days, they’re going to catch me, and then I’m going to be in jail. So, he talked to his wife, his parents, her parents, and decided to come back. So, after he came back, they reviewed the case. I mean, he came right back to the base and turned himself in. They reviewed the case, they interviewed him and he—and they let him finish bootcamp, and he joined the platoon I was in because that’s where we were training when he left. And from what I gathered, he spent another 15 years in the Marine Corps. (00:12:07) Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did the bootcamp last? Veteran: Mine lasted 94 days, 10 hours, 20 minutes, and 30 seconds. We actually lasted a few days longer because during that time, it was hard to get recruits because of the anti-war movement. So, we actually spent an extra 4 days, and the rest of it was just basically from the time we landed on the yellow footprints to the time they put us on the bus to take us to the airport. Interviewer: Okay. How long did it take you to adjust to life in the military? Veteran: It did not take me as long as some others. But I did have family background from the military so it made it a little bit easier. Interviewer: Okay. And were you in good physical shape when you went in? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. So, you could survive the physical training and… Veteran: Yes, the—especially the running part. Because part of the PFT test is you had to do a minimum of 3 pull-ups, 40 sit-ups, and you had to run the 3 miles in 28 minutes. The catch to that was, the Marine Corps was smart, they don’t want you doing the minimums. So, if you— �they did a point system. And if you did just the minimums, you didn’t pass. They wanted you to put out effort. They don’t want you just to get by. The running part wasn’t a problem because I ran track in high school. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and I guess during Vietnam, much of the time there was sort of an 8-week bootcamp, and then they would send people off to Camp Pendleton or whatever training they were doing. Now, yours lasted more like 90 days. So, what are they doing? Did you spend some time at Camp Pendleton as well? Veteran: Yes. One, that’s where the rifle range is. And two, that’s where they did some of the war games type things between the different platoons. One platoon would be the unit on defense, the other would be the aggressor and that’s what they would do, and then you’d go back to San Diego. (00:14:08) Interviewer: Okay. Now at this point were you training, you had people who were heading for the Air Wing as well as the Ground Wing, and you’re basically just all together at that point, all doing the same thing? Veteran: Correct. Interviewer: Okay. Now once you complete that training, what do they do with you next? Veteran: Well, once you’ve graduated, of course in quite a few of our cases, there was quite a few of us from the Detroit area, and the only flight going out that day was almost immediately after bootcamp. So, our gear was put on the buses at like 5 in the morning. And as soon as the graduation was over, we were put on the bus and home. You were given 10 days of leave before you report to your next duty station. So, the flight went from San Diego to Chicago, and once I �got to Chicago, I was finally able to let my folks know I was coming home. I actually beat them to the Detroit airport from Chicago. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then from there after the 10 days leave, you report to your next duty station. In my case, I had qualified high enough to go into the avionics field, aviation electronics. So, my next duty station would have been NAS Millington, Tennessee. Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do there? Veteran: There, I went through what they call AFAM and AMFA, that’s air frame fundamentals and began to learn the basics about airplanes. They don’t assume you know anything, they start you at the beginning. And then I went through basic electrician and electronics schools, and then I went through aviation electronics class A. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did these schools add up to? Veteran: I reported there the second week of October of ’73, and I left in May of ’74. Interviewer: Okay, so you got like a 7-months, or 6-7 months, okay, at that time. Now, what’s life like while you’re in these training schools? Veteran: One, the first couple weeks there, you’re on Cinderella liberty. It doesn’t matter if your school has started, or you’re waiting for the class to start, Cinderella liberty meant you had to be in by midnight. Literally, or you were in trouble. And basically, that was just to make sure—they kind of, you kind of got acclimated to the area. The other thing is, is you still had all this stuff to do in your barracks: the field days, the cleaning, the morning inspections and all that. So, most of the time you’re getting up about 5 in the morning, going to get breakfast, getting yourself ready. �If you’re somebody like me who has a thick beard, a lot of times I was shaving twice a day to get past—through the inspections in the morning, and then the class inspection at 1300. And then you would go to class. And then of course, during those school times, you don’t go like to the rifle range or anything like that, because they want you to get the education they’re paying you for—they’re paying for. Get you educated so they can get you out into the fleet. (00:17:05) Interviewer: Okay. And what kind of mix of people were you training alongside? Veteran: I don’t know, they were all green. One thing our drill instructor told us in bootcamp, he says you’re not white, you’re not black, you’re not orange, you’re not purple. You’re green, all Marines are green. We had people from all over. In fact, there were people from other countries, and the classes weren’t just Marines. There were also Navy. So, there were blue people too. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and did you get a sense of, you know, kind of just their backgrounds? Did you have people who had been to college or things like that? Or were they all pretty much young? Veteran: We had high school drop outs, we had college graduates, we had high school graduates, we had some that had had some college time. Then there was some that were like me, I graduated high school and worked in a factory for two years, and then there were people that had worked in offices. There was, it was definitely a mixture, (00:18:06) Interviewer: Okay. Now, was all of your training geared toward fixed-wing aircraft? Or was it adaptable for helicopters or…? Veteran: What it is is the schooling you go through in Memphis, whether it be, whether you’re going Navy or Marine, it was based—to get you all the basics, so that you could work either �way. And then once you got out into the fleet, Marine force or into the fleet Navy, there they would give you your basics schools for whichever type aircraft you ended up with. Interviewer: Okay. So, you’re spending this 6-months plus doing this, and you still really don’t know what you’re going to do or where you’re going to go? Veteran: Correct. Interviewer: Okay. Now, once you’ve been there in the schools for a while, I guess you could get beyond the Cinderella liberty stage, so you can go off base a little more and do more things. Did you spend much time off base? Veteran: Yes, I did. One thing I learned from my relatives that were in the service, and one thing I learned the first couple weeks there, I would hear these guys “oh, there’s nothing to do here” because Millington is kind of a little ways from Memphis, it’s kind of out in the country because it is an airfield, military airfield. And I would hear that and I’m like wait a minute. Memphis is down there. There is a history in that. So, every chance I got—in fact, third day in, I actually got 24-hour liberty. Third day, the third day we were there, they—we held formation and they brought us into the classroom, because we hadn’t started classes yet, and they asked for volunteers to go into town to the Baptist hospital to donate blood. Well, three of us did. After we did, they told us the duty vehicle is downstairs and you don’t have to be back until 8 o’clock the next morning. Then of course everybody wanted to volunteer, but it was too late. So, I took advantage any time I went, I could go into town. I went to Memphis a lot of times, just to see it. It was some place I had never been before. (00:20:02) Interviewer: Okay. I mean, did you go listen to music or…? �Veteran: Sometimes I’d go to the bar, just like anybody else, sometimes I’d go to listen to—I’d go to different bars because you’d get a different, you’d get the Memphis beat, you’d get country, you go to this bar and it’s rock and roll, this one over here was more the acid rock, there was a little bit of everything you could find down there. Interviewer: Okay, so you took advantage of that. Now, did you ever have your own car down there or did you just…? Veteran: No, I did not. Interviewer: You just used whatever transport was available. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now you—anything else about that experience in Millington that kind of stands out for you? Veteran: Not that I can think of, just it was an experience. You are getting an education and meet a lot of different people. We’ve—we met, like the story with the guy in bootcamp, we had some incidents down there of things like that. And I am thinking at that point, it’s like you’re already through bootcamp, how can this be any worse? But I didn’t understand it, but I think part of that was family background with military, I didn’t think it was that bad. Interviewer: Alright. So now what’s your first duty station? Veteran: My first, well what happened was— Interviewer: What did you do next? Veteran: Once we grad—completed schools, and of course everybody, like the class I was in, the class that the guys for hydraulics was in, we didn’t necessarily finish at the same time, so some �of the guys I had went to bootcamp with and some of the guys I was there in Memphis with, either had already left or were still there when I left. So, I left in May. I was actually on leave, went home, attended an uncle’s funeral, and then reported to Cherry Point Marine Corps Airbase, North Carolina for school, class assignments for what I was going to end up with. When I was there, the actual orders they had for me were for jets, but the orders were already overdue, so I couldn’t take them. So, I got to spend about 4 days there until new sets of orders came in. They called me in, and I was one of the rare ones that lucked out, they says “Well, we’ve got a set of orders you can have for the EA6 or a set of orders for the CH-46.” Well, I knew what an EA-6 was, but I had never heard of a 46. And they said it was a helicopter. That sounded more interesting so I took those. (00:22:26) Interviewer: You know the 46, that’s a helicopter they have used in Vietnam pretty much the whole way through. Veteran: Quite extensively. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And so, then the orders were cut and I left Cherry Point to report to Marine Corps Air Station New River, helicopter, which is down by Camp Lejeune. Interviewer: Okay, so you’re in North Carolina. Okay, so now kind of describe what you do there? Veteran: When I, I reported into what they call TME-22, that’s training group. Once you’re there, then they assign you to different squadrons. And most of the time, you’d be assigned to the training squadron, it’s called HMT-204, and there you would train on the aircraft. Now when I first went in, basically if you were an avionics man or an aviation electrician, in the helicopter �community, you were basically—it was basically open. You could train on the 46, but according to the regulations, you could work on the 46, the 53, the Huey, the Cobra, the OV-10, the C-130, the C-117 aircraft. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: The helicopters and the three fixed-wing were prop, not jets. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: It was more of an open, because even though the 46 was so extensively used in Vietnam, helicopters were still kind of common, common ground. So, I joined that squadron for training. Upon complete—now that was in May of ’74, I completed that training in September. And I was reassigned back to that squadron, permanent personnel, so now I’ve done it. I’ve made it through all my schools, I am now in the fleet. (00:24:07) Interviewer: Alright. But you were assigned to a training squadron? Or is this…? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because even though it’s, primarily, training is for the crew chiefs, the pilots, that type of thing. Because when you first go to that training school, you don’t necessarily end up there. You could have ended up in—I could have ended up in one of the 53 outfits, because you have two groups there. You have Marine Aircraft Group 26 and you have Marine Aircraft Group 29, and they both have, basically they’re mirrors of each other, so if one group had to go off, you still had something there. �Interviewer: Mhmm. And in the mean-time though, you have the pilots and the air crew there, there is still training all the time. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And you are maintaining the aircraft. Veteran: Correct. Interviewer: Okay. And so how long did you stay there? Veteran: I was actually…The one thing you kind of get used to, once you get in the fleet, sooner or later, you’re going to end up either on guard duty or mess duty, and that’s a 30-day detail. So, in Octo—I only joined the unit permanent in September. Of course, October, I went on guard duty. Third week I was on guard duty, I got called from the barracks to report to S-1. They handed me a set of orders for Kaneohe Marine Air Station, Hawaii. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I took the month of November off. Took—they gave me 30 days leave, and then fly over there. So, went home, spent it with the family, and a little side not, I ran into somebody I had met in high school. We kind of went downtown together to kind of do the Christmas thing, like through J.L. Hudson’s, I don’t know if you’re familiar with them? Interviewer: Hudson’s was still there when I first moved to Michigan, yep. Veteran: Yeah, well they had that big store downtown where everything was on different floors, and all decorated for the holidays, especially now that they’re getting ready for the Christmas parade and all that. And the young lady I was with, we sat down for lunch and she was talking about—we had met in high school—and she was talking about how she had been on vacation in �Maine, visiting her aunt and uncle, and she—we hadn’t seen each other since high school, we get to talking together. And she thought, asked me if I knew any good place to go for vacation. So, I told her, “Why don’t you go to Hawaii.” And she asked me why and I told her this exactly, I said “Well, I’ll be there, that seems like a good reason.” She later became my wife, my better half. (00:26:34) Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so when you do go out to Hawaii, now are you basically a helicopter mechanic or…? Veteran: Yeah, helicopter aviation electronics. And when I got there, I was, because the squadron had a shortage of personnel because they just had a big turn over, I ended up in a 53 squadron, HMH-463. Interviewer: Okay, just—what’s the difference between the 46 and the 53? Veteran: 46 is a medium range, medium weight helicopter, it has the tandem rotors. CH-53 is a heavy-duty helicopter, it has 6, the alphas and deltas which I started on, had 6 main rotor blades, 4 tail blades, and it could carry an external load of about 20,000 pounds, and it could carry 33 combat troops inside. It was a lot bigger. A lot more powerful. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But you were familiar with those from your training already? Veteran: Well, the electronics were a lot similar. Especially the electronic side with the radios, navigational, and all that. Electrical, you had to learn a little more, because the wiring systems and stuff was a little bit different. And they actually sent me back to school for that. So, I got to the squadron in December, 1974. Got there about the middle of the month. Had my first green Christmas there, which was really weird. Growing up in Michigan, Christmases were always �white. Here you are in Hawaii and it’s like 65 degrees out, you know, on the windward side of the island. (00:28:12) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and then kind of—so you said they sent you to school, did you do your schooling there? Veteran: No, they sent me to—back then it was called Santa Ana Marine Corps Base in California. But, and then it was called Tustin, but now it’s closed down. But yeah, I went there for the school. They actually had schools at Tustin and El Toro. And I went through the school, and basically, it was electrician’s school. Because I already had the common av part down, but if I am going to be working, you got to be able to repair the wiring too. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, I had just finished school and got recalled back to the squadron. Interviewer: Okay, and so when was that? Veteran: That would have been in March, the first week of March in 1975. Interviewer: Okay. Things are starting to get pretty interesting in Southeast Asia by then. Veteran: Yes. That’s why I got recalled. In fact, guys that were on leave were all showing up back. And I reported back to my shop, and the first thing the NC of the shop did was say “don’t unpack.” Interviewer: So, now what happens to you? Veteran: At the end of the month, they put us on board the USS Hancock, which was on her way from San Diego, and we headed towards the Philippines. The only problem is, I had to call home and have my folks tell my girlfriend that, not to come out. I might not be here. And my mom �asked me where I was going. I said “Well, we got orders to the Philippines.” She, the first thing she asked me was, “Is that near Vietnam?” I said, “Nope.” I didn’t know how close it was really but I wasn’t going to say anything to her. We had hunches, but nobody knew for sure. So, they put us aboard the USS Hancock, an old World War 2 aircraft carrier. We left from Hawaii, we sailed to the Philippines. When we got to the Philippines, of course we got liberty for a couple days while the Navy offloaded. They offloaded all the jets. We had 16 CH-53s, and they added some 46s, some Hueys, some Cobras, from Okinawa, just for support. And from there, once we set sail, nobody knew nothing until all of a sudden, we got orders to Cambodia for Operation Eagle Pull. (00:30:36) Interviewer: Okay, and what was that? Veteran: The evacuation of Cambodia. Interviewer: Okay, and who was being evacuated? Veteran: Americans, Canadians, Australians, any Cambodians that were working with those forces. Interviewer: Okay. Now, so basically, how did that process work? What happened? Veteran: We basically—the helicopters launched, we flew in, had specific landing places, landed, picked up these people, and brought them out. And then the last ones of course, once we were down to the finals, the last would have been the embassy staff and the Marine embassy guards. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you fly or did you stay on the ship? Veteran: I stayed on the ship. We had to keep them running. �Interviewer: Alright, now in that operation, did any of the helicopters get shot at or have any damage? Veteran: No. Actually, what was surprising was how concise that operation went. It was very smooth by military standards. We went in, we got the job done, and we pretty much left. Interviewer: How long did that take? Veteran: Just the one day. Interviewer: Okay. And did you, kind of, see the people getting off or…? Veteran: Not too much, because most of them were flown to, like, the command ship, the Blue Ridge, and other ships. None were brought to the carriers. That we were on, anyway. Interviewer: Okay. So, the helicopters could go and they could drop people off on other ships and then come back to your ship for servicing basically. Veteran: Oh yeah. Yes. (00:32:09) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so that was sort of the first adventure. And that’s, was that still in March or are we in April? Veteran: We are in April. Interviewer: Okay, alright. Veteran: April 12th. Interviewer: And in April, now the North Vietnamese have begun their final offensive in the South Vietnam. So, after April 12th, now what do you do? �Veteran: Well, the ship got orders for liberty. We pulled into Singapore. Supposedly, according to the ship’s captain, we pulled in, it was supposed to be 10 days of liberty. Two and a half days later, things kind of went south in Vietnam. So they ordered the fleet up, so we had to—they had to recall people from liberty and get the—in fact, they actually had to—those that got left behind, Navy, Marines, and that, because they couldn’t wait, they had to get going by orders of the fleet admiral. What they did was they flew aircraft in to recover them and then they flew back out to the ships. Because it was kind of unexpected. Interviewer: Okay. So, it got—continue the story now. So, the ship heads back up to Vietnam? Veteran: Now we’re heading up towards the coast. It’s one of those situations, the rumors are flying like crazy. I mean, you’re hearing all kinds of stories, and most of us are just kind of like…Well, our gunny was pretty good about it, the NCIC of the shop, he basically says “Hey, you’re going to hear rumors galore. Just do your job and once we get official word, then we will make sure it gets passed to everybody.” And most of the guys just took it that way. Interviewer: Well, what kind of rumors were floating around? Veteran: Oh, there were…It’s hard to remember pretty much, but basically like “Oh, South Vietnam’s been attacked.” Or “Oh, we are having to arm the birds because this is no longer an evacuation. We are going back in.” Or, you know, there was all kinds of things. (00:34:13) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then there was some people saying “Oh, we are not even going there, we are going somewhere else.” Or something like that. I am kind of like “I’ll just wait until he tells me.” Because like I said, it wasn’t just Marines, the Navy had all kinds of stories. “Oh, we are going �back to the Philippines. You guys are going back to the Philippines and we are taking our jets back because we have to go.” Okay. I don’t remember all of the specifics anymore, because that was quite a while ago. Interviewer: Sure. Okay, and then how quickly does stuff start happening? Are you sending helicopters in right away or do you get a while? Veteran: No. No, the ambassador kept talking with the president. Kept saying “not yet” because things were starting to get—because he didn’t, he really didn’t want to end it. He wanted to continue to support the South Vietnamese people. I’ll give him that one. Finally, on the 30th of April, and we’ve been off the coast, President Ford made the command decision: launch the Marine helicopters. He did not have to have permission because, anybody who knows history knows the military was divided. The President of the United States controls the Marine Corps, Congress controls the Army and Navy, now plus the Air Force. And that was something started by our founding fathers, because they saw where someone had total control of the military, sooner or late it’s a dictatorship. And they didn’t want that. So, he can send in the Marines immediately before convening with Congress, so at least get the ball rolling. So, we got our orders at like 3 in the morning to get the aircraft ready for launch. And as soon as the sun come up, we started launching. By then, he had met with Congress, and now the Navy is also launching, and then you got the huge Air Force transports. We couldn’t use them for very long, though. Because shortly after we launched our first wave, we actually did come under some fire, because the North Vietnamese army was already at the international airport. That’s why in the movies and in the videos, you always see them landing in parking lots, on top of hotels, on top of the embassy, because we couldn’t use the airport. We had to do what we could as fast as we could. (00:36:36) �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we always thanked the President for not dilly dallying. Interviewer: Yep, okay. So, now I was going to say, is your duty essentially the same as it was for Cambodia? You’re on the ship? Veteran: I am actually on the flight deck. Me and one other avionics man. We have what they call a cruise box full of parts and equipment. And as the planes come in, they would announce “Avionics needed on spot 7.” We’d grab our tools, get over there, get it fixed, so it could launch. There’d be hydraulics men, metalsmiths, everything. Interviewer: Okay. And so now, did some of these helicopters come back with battle damage? Or were they… Veteran: There were a few that did have some bullet holes and that. Not very many but there was the occasional, I would say pot shots from the South—North Vietnamese army. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did they follow the same procedure as Cambodia? They would offload elsewhere, did they bring them back out? Veteran: No, they offloaded wherever they could because things really started happening so fast. In fact, we actually had Vietnamese pilots landing on our ship. They had never landed at sea before, so it got interesting. You know, they’re coming in in old 47s, and old Hueys that were left behind for them when we pulled out in ’73. And the only problem was, we had no room for them. So, after they would land, we would help them offload, and then we were pushing the planes out, those aircraft, out to the water to make room for ours. (00:38:07) �Interviewer: Alright. And what impression did you have of the people being evacuated? Did you see them at all? Veteran: I saw a lot of them, and a lot of them, as soon as they’d see you—because of course they were thanking all of the people for getting them out, because unlike Cambodia where the average, of course we didn’t know that at the time, but the average person wasn’t as effected as they were in Vietnam. So, a lot of these people, if they even associated with foreigners, they were possibly going to be executed. So, they were happy. They were glad. They were sad because they were leaving, because that’s their homes. But they were also looking at the other side, they were looking at both sides of the coin, basically. They didn’t want to leave home, but they knew if they stayed…who knows what might have happened to them. Interviewer: Okay. And was this basically a one-day operation? Veteran: It was basically about a 24-hour operation, but it was kind of hectic because we are flying in and, in fact, the captain of our ship—I overheard this conversation—he was being asked, they would keep seeing helicopters load. They would, when they would land, they would reload, restock. Well, they were also restocking with ammo because we all, we carried it. We didn’t know. But of course, we were under orders not to fire. And there were some news media on board some of the ships, and they actually questioned the captain of the ship and he told them, he says “Hey, those helicopters are designed to carry 33 combat troops. We are averaging about 100 Vietnamese people. We are having to throw stuff over the side to make room for these people. We are going to get as many people out as we can.” And then basically, that’s what was going on. On some of those aircraft, we did. We had over 100 Vietnamese men, women, and children on board. Because we were going to do our best to get as many that wanted out of there as they could have happen. (00:40:19) �Interviewer: Okay. And then once that 24-hours sort of concludes, what happens next? Veteran: Okay, now it’s in the middle of the night, we are starting to wrap things up. Come daylight, we are going to be heading out. That’s the orders. Though, we were having to wait because we still had one of the 46s in the air that was flying search and rescue missions, SAR, and they got a radio call from the embassy: the Marines were still there. So, we had to launch, do a hurry up launch to go get them. They kind of got, they were still doing the normal stuff of destroying documents and all that, and they kind of got missed. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But we did get in, we did get them, and bring them back out. Interviewer: So, there is one last bunch there longer than they were supposed to be. But then, the North Vietnamese didn’t come in and…? Veteran: They were actually at the doors to the embassy when we landed. I don’t think they knew anybody was in there. And if they did, they hadn’t actually come in yet. But of course they were going to go through and tear it up and…that was their whole plan. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I don’t know if they knew the Marines were still there or not but we didn’t wait, we got them out. Interviewer: Okay. Where do you go then from there? Veteran: From there, our ship first had orders, the captain of the ship first got orders ‘cause of Mayaguez (reference to the seizure of the cargo ship Mayaguez by the Khmer Rouge off the Cambodian coastline). The captain had to contact the fleet admiral. He says, “Ah, what do I do �with the almost 3000 Vietnamese refugees I’ve got on board?” So, they had to reassign that mission. So, we headed for the Philippines. Once in the Philippines, we offloaded all of the refugees. (00:42:08) Interviewer: Okay. And now, does—you stay with the fleet? Or do you go back to Hawaii? Veteran: Now, what they are going to do instead is they are going to send us back to Hawaii. So, they offloaded our aircraft off of the Hancock, and they put us onboard the USS Enterprise to go home, because she was on her way back to San Diego. The Hancock would be staying out there as part of the Pacific deployment. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we get to ride the Enterprise back home. Interviewer: Okay, and what vintage was this version of the Enterprise? Veteran: This was the first nuclear powered aircraft carrier. She was made in 1959, but she was still the queen of the fleet, believe me. Interviewer: Now, does that mean you have better quality accommodations or anything else? Veteran: Oh yes. A lot better. And it’s nothing against the Hancock, she was just older. She was—she served in World War 2, Korea, and Vietnam. CVA-19, and you figure we are up to like 79 now, so she was kind of old. Interviewer: Okay. And then you go back to Hawaii and you go back to your base and back to your regular squadron? �Veteran: Yes. Yes, in fact we did a fly off from the Enterprise because she wasn’t stopping in Hawaii, she wasn’t going to be stopping at Pearl, she was going straight home. They had been out at sea for almost a year. And these guys wanted to get home. So, we did a fly off. And when we landed, the base has this grade school. So, as we landed, and they put us in formation, the students from the grade school were there and they come out and each one put a lei around, the traditional Hawaiian greeting, each one of us that came back. So, that was kind of nice. And then, they had customs set up right there in the hanger, and then it was liberty. Interviewer: Okay. And then how long did you wind up staying in Hawaii? (00:44:05) Veteran: I was there from December of ’74 through December of ’77. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did your girlfriend ever get to come out and visit? Veteran: Yes, she finally come out in June of ’75. And at 10:30 in the morning, on the 27th of June, on top of Nuuanu Pali Lookout, I asked her to marry me. Interviewer: I guess that worked. Veteran: Well, she’s put up with me for 43, almost 43 years now. Interviewer: Okay. Now, then, did she stay out there with you or…? Veteran: No, she didn’t stay out, she went back home because of course to break the news to the families and get things ready. And I actually took leave in September of ’75, went back, and we got married there so the families. Interviewer: Okay. And then you just had a little bit more time left in Hawaii. Did she come back out at that point? �Veteran: Yes, she come back out. And then once I was promoted to Corporal, I was able to apply for a company tour, have my family with me. And that added the year. I would have left the island in ’76, but that added one more year because I had my family with me. So, I got—I stayed an extra year. Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you stay with the same unit or…? Veteran: Pretty much. Now, I did have to—I did go on a temporary duty to Okinawa for—from July of ’77 to November of ’77. There was a bunch of us. They were short of personnel. And one of the squadrons was being retired, so they kind of just pulled people. There was some of us that came from Hawaii, some of us came from Tustin Marine Corps Airbase there. Go over and help get those aircraft ready to retire. And during that time, we also had joined war games with a Philippines defense force that were down in the Philippines doing…Playing war games. (00:46:00) Interviewer: Okay. And what kind of impression did you have of Okinawa? Veteran: I actually liked it there. The first time I was there, it was, of course aside from the Philippines, I had never been anywhere but Canada my entire life. Growing up in Detroit, Canada was like a suburb. Because it was actually easier to get to Canada than it was to get to some of the suburbs. To me, I tried to, just like in Hawaii, I’d go traveling around the island. Go visiting. Okinawa, same thing. We were at Futenma, down at the southern part of the island. The whole island is like only 66 miles long. And you didn’t need to have a car or nothing. So, we’d— I’d walk all over the place, just to see it. Interviewer: And how did people there seem to view you, or treat the Americans? �Veteran: Most—when you got away from the actual base, because you always got, I don’t care what military base you go to where or what country’s military it is, around the base, it can be hit or miss. But you get out in the public, it’s a little different. It’s just like anywhere else. And I was surprised at how many could speak English better than a lot of Americans can. But I learned that Japanese, that’s required. Not only their own language—well, Okinawa is actually, was an independent nation at one time. But they do the same thing. They teach their people English because it is a more general language. So, a lot of them could speak it better than a lot of people I know today. And they were nice. And then later on, because I visited Okinawa 3 more times in my career, so I was there 4 times total. I later on learned, I had said earlier my father had passed away when I was young, I didn’t—I knew he was a Marine, but I didn’t know what he did. Well, I found out he fought on Guadalcanal at Okinawa. (00:48:04) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, that even made Okinawa a little—and I took the battlefield tour when I was there, one of the times. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, is there still stuff left in terms of defensive works or things like that? Veteran: Oh, yes. There—a lot of the underground compounds are still there. What they do is they’re caged off so you can see them, and you can still see the bullet holes in the walls, and then they would have maps in back, some of the original Japanese military maps and stuff that you could view. They had other areas, and then at the final part, it’s called the Peace Park where they cover some of the things that went on, how the Okinawans were treated by the Japanese, how they were treated afterwards and stuff like that. �Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and so you’re doing—you also were involved in joint exercises with the Filipinos. Did you work with any of them directly? Or were you just— Veteran: We did a little bit. There was always a Philippine military. Most of the time not on the bases, but they were nearby. I met a few of them. Not a lot because we were taking care of the helicopters, we didn’t see as many. They would be out in the field more. But we would deal with a few of them now and then. Interviewer: Okay. Now, the different units you served with, did you ever train Filipino personnel or have them in some of the training units or…? Veteran: No. No. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so have you basically decided at this point that you are going to stay in the Marines or…? Veteran: At that point, I did not. Because I was over in Okinawa, I was actually thinking about getting out. But I got back in November and of course in December, I am going to be transferring. And I still had 2 years left on my contract, because I had enlisted for 6. And we were talking about it, because it has been 4 years, and I talked with the wife. And at that point back home, Detroit, of course with the oil embargo, there was a lot of layoffs. Even my dad called and says even where he was working, and he worked for Guardian Glass, he said there’s not a lot of work back here. So, I talked with her. Our son was born in ’76 there in Hawaii. At that point, I decided to re-enlist, and I re-enlisted before I left, for another 4 years. And after that, yeah. It was pretty much obvious what was going to happen. (00:50:43) Interviewer: Alright. So, after Hawaii, now what is your next assignment? �Veteran: Actually, I got orders back to Marine Corps Air Station New River, back to HMT-204. Right back to where I started, which I thought was kind of funny. Now, I did spend quite a bit of time in North Carolina, but I was with different units. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was with 204 for a short period of time, then I joined HMM-261 which is Medium Marine Helicopter squadron. And what happens is those squadrons are a part of the float system for the deployments. It’s a squadron, they will have 12 46s, and then we supply 453s and they supply Cobras and Hueys. And then you spend 6 months out at sea, on a float, med float. Now, the one thing that happened while I was in Hawaii, to regress a little bit, the Marine Corps went to specific MOS’s, so whatever squadron you were in at the time, that’s your MOS now. So, my MOS became 6323, which was com-nav technician on the 53s. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, that’s what I am going to be working on the rest of my career. Interviewer: Alright, so you no longer get to be the jack of all trades and work on all those different airplanes. Veteran: Right. They’re advance—the electronics are advancing to the point where it would actually cost the military, not just the Marine Corps, but the Navy and—the electronics are advancing so much that, what would happen is it would cost more to keep retraining then to just put them in a specific aircraft. (00:52:14) Interviewer: Okay. So, now you’ve got that. Did you go on these cruises then? �Veteran: I went on a med cruise. We left in September of 1979 and came back in February of 1980. Interviewer: Okay. What was that cruise like? Veteran: Basically, you cruised the Mediterranean with the Atlantic fleet. They have a carrier, attack group, and what they call a helicopter assault group. You spend 6 months, you do like, when we first got out there, we did a joint operation with the Greek and Turkish Armies, called Display Determination. Of course, the Cold War is going on back then. The Russian southern fleet is down there so you’re kind of showing the Russians that hey, we are still here, we are still keeping an eye on you, type thing. And then you spend the rest of the 6 months floating around the Mediterranean. Like, we pulled liberty in Greece. When you go into Naples, one time it was a liberty port, another time it’s a working port. We’d spend a couple weeks there. But that allows you to get the aircraft worked on. We did some war games in Sigonella, out—we spent some time out in the field in Sardinia. We also saw Spain. Got to spend Christmas in Palma de Mallorca, which is basically Spain’s version of Hawaii. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. And when you go ashore, what kind of treatment or reception do you find in these places? Veteran: Pretty good. One night in Palma, after I had shore patrol one day, and then we were out one evening. We were sitting there drinking and some gentleman joined us, and we are drinking and it turned out they were from the Russian army that was on liberty there. And I made the mistake of trying to do my turn to buy. No, no, no. Basically grabbed my arm and says “No, no, no. We buy for Marines.” Most of the people, in every country I have been, if you get out and �treat them like you would normal people, don’t play the tourist or the typical party hardy military, they’re fine. (00:54:43) Interviewer: Okay. You did shore patrol. What does that duty consist of? Veteran: Basically, you’re on duty, usually it’s for one 24-hour period. And you’re basically kind of patrolling out there. A: You’re trying to keep the guys from getting in trouble. B: You’re just kind of watching them also. I mean, you’ve got both sides of the coin. You’ve got people that will try to take advantage of the military. You’ve got the military that’ll try to take advantage of a situation. And you just want to try and keep it calm. You’re not trying to get anybody in trouble, you’re just…Like, a lot of the bars and night clubs throughout, they’ll invite you in and buy you something to eat. Because when you are in there, everybody behaves, not just the military. And then when you go on to the next one, they’ll do the same thing. It’s not as bad as ‘course the movies always play it up a little more. Yes, we do have incidents but that’s what we are there for, to try and keep it calm. Interviewer: Right. Okay, a little broader question at this point. So, you—you’ve been in now for a fair number of years, you’ve come in in the mid ‘70s and you know, through the late ‘70s. Were there problems that you ever noticed with the things like drug use or alcoholism, or that kind of thing? (00:56:11) Veteran: I don’t know if it was and I didn’t pay so close attention. I mean, yeah we all partied hard but it seemed like we worked just as hard. There could have been but I’ll be honest, I didn’t pay as much attention. Or maybe instead of making a public issue out of it, they just handled it. I’m sure it was there. Interviewer: But it wasn’t something that ever kind of caught your attention. �Veteran: No, it was—no. Interviewer: Yeah. You know. And how would you characterize morale in the units you were with? Veteran: For the most part, the morale was pretty good. We did have one incident on our med cruise where a guy had a rough time, because as well as we were being treated by the locals, Americans was another story back then. And this gentleman, he was from a small town in New England. And he ran into people he had gone to school with their kids. And they treated him like dirt. He was an American Marine. He was treated better—we were treated better by the Russians there in Palma than he was treated by people from his hometown. And it was hard on him for a while, because he was younger than I was. I was 20 when I went in the service. And it hit him hard. But for the most part, we’d do our job. We’d go out on liberty. Come back, do our job. Interviewer: Alright. And how much contact do you have with home while you are out with the cruise? Veteran: Back then of course, you didn’t have the internet like you do, so it was mail. Now, my wife come up with a smart idea. Because the mail system, once you get out with that fleet, turtles go faster. So, she started numbering the letters, and then I started numbering them back. That way when letter 4 got there before letter 2…You’d here guys open a letter, “What do you mean you solved this problem? What problem?” Well here, she would put it in sequence so you could—so I would just put letter 4 away until letter 2 showed up. Or if I read letter 4, I’d say well, I’ll wait and find out what went on when letter 2 gets there. So, she was pretty good about that. And then every once in a while, when it was available, they would set up the radio on the ship where you could, they could call to a ham operator in the states, and then all you’d have to �pay for is the call from that ham operator’s house to your house. And you could talk on the radio. Of course, it was limited. And you had to do the over and out and all that. But that was kind of a joy thing to do every once in a while. (00:58:45) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now did you have just the one med cruise or…? Veteran: One med cruise. Interviewer: And did you have cruises in the Caribbean or the Atlantic otherwise? Veteran: Well, the Caribbean was the evacuation of Cuba, 1980. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We had got back in February. And next thing you know, we hadn’t, the squadron hadn’t broken up yet, it was still composite. They put us on board the USS Saipan with new LHAs and sent us down for the evacuation of Cuba. So, I guess you could call that a Caribbean cruise. Interviewer: Okay, now why was there an evacuation of Cuba? Veteran: Basically, a lot of the Cubans had finally pretty much had it. And they were leaving. And problems were that’s hurricane season. And these people were just leaving on rowboats, on rafts, on—and then of course, you had, and I am not going to say it’s any particular nationality, but you had the bloodsuckers. They were taking their yachts down and charging thousands of dollars to get people out. And we helped the Coast Guard with that too a little bit, confiscating— basically, it’s called piracy. (1:00:00) Interviewer: So, what’s—so, you’re calling it a evacuation, but it’s not like Cambodia or Vietnam where you are flying into the country to pick up people? Veteran: No. �Interviewer: Because the only American presence really in Cuba at that point is at Guantanamo, and we didn’t evacuate Guantanamo. But the Cubans—this is the era of the boat, Cuban boat people, large numbers of them all leaving and taking to the sea, and so you’re picking people up out of the water? Veteran: Yes. And in some cases, the boat was swamped, they’re all floating in the water. These are shark infested waters. We are getting them out as fast as we can. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It was an interesting time. Interviewer: Would you bring them onto the ship or…? Veteran: We would bring them onto the ship, and then because it wasn’t that far, we would fly them over to the aircraft carriers because they had planes, they could actually take them into Miami and into the airport. So, they didn’t stay with us. That allowed us to continue down there a lot longer than we probably would have been able to. Interviewer: So, how long did you stay doing that? Veteran: We were only down there about a month. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, okay. And then did you go to sea for other things or just otherwise stay on the base? Veteran: Well, I pretty much stayed on the base after that. Now we are getting—that’s 1980. So, ’81, ’82 I am pretty much on the base. Well, I am working on the base. We actually lived downtown. I joined the volunteer fire department in my area. The one thing about North Carolina, there’s a lot of volunteer fire departments. Just in the county where we lived, Onslow �county, you had 23 fire departments and only 2 of them were paid. That was the base and the city of Jacksonville. The rest was all volunteers. And you’d meet all kinds of people. There were military that—one of the guys on one of our sister fire departments was the weather reporter for channel 12 news. I mean, everybody helped out. You took care of each other. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I pretty much stayed there. Now, I left 261 in ’80. But instead of going back to 20—HM-204, I got reassigned to HMH-362. (1:02:11) Interviewer: Alright. And that, was that again a Medium Helicopter— Veteran: No, this was actually a full, heavy helicopter squadron. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then, towards the end of the year, they came out with a program. The Marine Corps was getting the new CH-53 Echoes and they were looking for people to go for schooling on it. And I submitted my name. And when I went for the interview with the maintenance chief, he told me, “You probably won’t get this because you’ve only got one med cruise.” He said “they’re, you know…” But what happened was, it just so happened I was the only com-nav tech that applied. The rest were electricians. So, I got the school. So, I got to go to the Sikorsky factory in Connecticut for schooling on this new helicopter the Marine Corps was getting. Interviewer: Okay. And what really made this one any different from the earlier ones? Veteran: The A’s and B’s—the A’s and delta’s the Marine Corps had, you had 6 main rotor blades. And if you went from tip to tip, you’re talking about 76 feet. It could carry about 33 combat troops, and then if—in combat, a lot of times you had a crew of 5: you had the pilot, �copilot, you had the crew chief who was also the door gunner, you had the first mech who was also the window gunner on the other side. But one thing we learned from the guys in Vietnam is a lot of times when the helicopters would land, and the ramps would open to let the Marines out, the enemy would fire in. So, they put tripod mounts to put M-60s so when the ramp lowered, we could shoot out and hopefully nobody shot back. We didn’t want to know, we just something they—so you could have that extra person. Well, with the new helicopter, the Echo, the first thing it was it had inflate refueling capabilities. And instead of 6 main rotor blades, it had 7. And tip to tip, it was about 79 feet. Interviewer: Okay. (1:04:04) Veteran: Instead of 2 engines, it had 3. It could carry 55 combat troops, or it could basically lift its own weight: 30,000 pounds. External load. So, you’re getting this heavier duty. And the basic reason that the Navy and Marine Corps wanted it is that it could lift everything in the Navy, Marine Corps inventory. Ground or air. So, if a jet went down, we could got get it and get it back. Not have to leave it behind. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so how long did you spend in Connecticut? Veteran: Well, there was 2 separate classes. The first time was about 2 ½ to 3 months. Then we reported back to our squadrons. And then we went back up to help finish up because once—the second time we were up, we were only there a couple of months. But that was to get things wrapped up because those planes were going to start joining the fleet. And form the first squadron, which was HMH-464. Interviewer: Okay, and did you join that squadron? Veteran: Yes. We—and then we got the first of the air frames. �Interviewer: Alright. Okay, now where was that squadron going to be based? Veteran: It was based at MAG-29 Marine Corps Air Station in New River. Interviewer: Okay, so you’re still basically at home. Veteran: Yep, just now I am on the other side of the base. From one side of the base to the other, basically. Interviewer: Now, did that squadron go on a cruise or just stay where they were while you were there? Veteran: Pretty much it wouldn’t go anywhere. It didn’t have a full complement of aircraft. And part of it was a bunch of us ended up on what’s called the FOTNE—Fleet Operational Test and Evaluation. We were sent on what they called temporary additional duty orders to Quantico, Virginia, home of Marine helicopter squadron 1. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: On the green side. The white side would be the President’s side. What we were going to do is run this new helicopter through its paces. So, we did some flight training there in the Quantico area. And one of the things we had to do was take it up to Pax River to the Navy test center, fly it there so they could run some tests on it, including this guy who zaps lightning into the planes. It’s an actual electronic machine that was created and they would actually—they wouldn’t actually put the aircraft in the air, but they would do all the simulations, right there. They would put it up on jacks and raise the landing gear so it would simulate that the plane was flying, hit this electricity with it. Because that’s something that aircraft have to deal with in flying is lightning strikes. (1:06:35) �Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then they would study the effect it had on the rotor blades, on the electronic equipment, on the fuel system, so they could come up with ways to protect it. And then from there, we flew it out to the west coast, did some mountain training with it. And then one of the things they did from—they flew it from Tustin, California to New River, North Carolina nonstop. First ever helicopter, nonstop, cross country flight. But this was all testing these systems out. Interviewer: Right, and of course this is one you can refuel in the air so that would be a good idea to test. Veteran: Correct, it just kept right on going. Interviewer: Okay, now how common was it for you to fly in these helicopters? Veteran: Once I had gotten trained enough, I ended up on avionics test stints. When planes would get fixed, sometimes they would require a test flight. So, then you would have an avionics man, a hydraulics man, a metalsmith would all fly on it just to watch those systems that were fixed to make sure everything is working. So, I got to fly quite a lot. And any chance I could, I’d fly on them. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so now how long then do you stay with that new unit? Veteran: I stayed with 464 for a short period of time, then I was transferred to the HAMS-26. That was the—basically the command next step up from a squadron. You’re going into a—and what I would do is I was sent there as part of the group quality assurance, where we kind of overseen all the maintenance on all of the squadrons. Plus, we would get tech crews in. Like, �they were designing some new systems for the aircraft, and it was our—it was civilian crews, and it was our job to oversee what they were doing, make sure they didn’t mess anything up or if they had problems that we needed—we were kind of the go-betweens. And then we would look over the aircraft, make sure everything was ready to go before it got returned to the unit. (1:08:33) Interviewer: Okay. Now, have you been moving up in rank at all during these times or…? Veteran: Little by little. I am now a sergeant. In fact, while I was with HAMs, I got orders back to Hawaii. Now of course while we were in North Carolina, our daughter was born there at Camp Lejeune. So, I got orders back to Hawaii and back to 463. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the one thing I liked about it, aside from the military thing, because I liked Hawaii. Even when you’re broke, you can always go to the beach and go swimming. I mean, there is always something to do. But my son was now old enough to see where he was born. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That was kind of nice. And then the one thing we always did when we got orders like that, especially when the kids were gone, I didn’t take the rush out there. I took the maximum time they would allow. And we would tour the country. Kids would see things that they would talk about in school later on, you know. Or visit relatives and stuff like that. So, we wouldn’t rush it, we would make a vacation out of it but we’d—they’d learn too. You know, Mount Rushmore, Yellowstone, all of these places that they probably wouldn’t have seen otherwise. Interviewer: Sure. Okay, so when do you get to Hawaii this time? �Veteran: Let’s see, it was ’83. I am thinking right around September or October of ’83. Interviewer: Okay. And how long will that tour last? (1:10:00) Veteran: 3 years, because I had my family with me. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It would be two years if you’re unaccompanied. I know that they have changed it since then. I don’t know what it is now. Interviewer: Okay. And now was this a fairly quiet period or…? Veteran: For the most part, yes. In fact, at that point, I had only spent a little bit of time in my MOS in avionics when I got reassigned to maintenance control. Maintenance control, just like QA and stuff like that, they would take different people from different shops. And what you would do in maintenance control, that’s just what it sounds like, you’re controlling the maintenance of the aircraft. You’re getting the information from the operations department “we need the helicopters configured for this for these operations.” Then you’re going with the shops to make sure they’re configured for whatever training. You’re making sure what they call downing discrepancies are taken care of and things like that. Keep the planes operational and safe. Interviewer: Okay. Do you go out with the fleet at all, or are you just entirely on the base? Veteran: Pretty much on the base. At one point, I was transferred to the medium helicopter squadron for a 6-month debt to Okinawa, which was common. And they would rotate people, and mine was in—my tour trip to Okinawa was in ’85.’Course, I stayed in maintenance control because once you are in, they kind of like to keep you. Well, part of it is that you have the �authority to sign a plane safe for flight. So, basically you are taking all of that information from all the work centers, the operations, and you’re saying that you have compiled it all, that you have compared it, you have talked with QA, the plane is safe to fly. You are signing that piece of paper, then that pilot and crew is going out there and flying it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, you kind of—once you get in there, they kind of keep you there because they put some training into it. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, anything else that kind of stands out about that tour in Hawaii, that period? (1:12:01) Veteran: Well, when I went to Okinawa, I also—we also ended up aboard ship, down to the Philippines again. But that was just—and then, having to spend a couple days, just floating in the ocean, because we were caught between two hurricanes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, we couldn’t go anywhere. Then going back to Okinawa. Also went up to Yokosuka air base. Interviewer: Japan. Veteran: Yes. Actually, we went to the Navy base. Spent some time there. But the bad luck was when we got there, the USS Midway pulled in and used up the Navy barracks so us with our 453s, we were forced to stay at a hotel in town. Interviewer: Gee, sorry about that. �Veteran: Yeah! That was kind of nice because you get to meet the people. Though, they did have a problem with the hotel design, and I always talk about this. Back then, they didn’t have the key cards, so you had to go get your key from the desk, and then to get to your elevators to get to your room, you had to go through the bar. Interviewer: Okay. A nice little trip. Veteran: Yeah. So, that was interesting. And then different—and then one of our officers found out we were going to be up there, so he managed to purchase a whole bunch of tickets to Tokyo Disneyland. So, a bunch of us went to Disneyland in Tokyo, which was very interesting. Interviewer: So, what did they have at Tokyo Disneyland? It just looked like a regular Disneyland? Veteran: Yeah. It wasn’t quite as big, because this was only its third year in existence, it had only been there 3 years. It was still growing. But it was kind of neat. It was—I had taken the kids to Disneyland when we transferred and a lot of it was the same. The only thing you kind of had to get used to was on the cars, the narrations were in Japanese, but all the characters, like in the haunted mansion, they’re speaking English. It could get a little confusing at times. But if you paid close attention, you could figure out what was going on. (1:14:22) Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But other than that, it was enjoyable. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and so when does that Hawaii tour end up? Veteran: That ended about September of ’86. Interviewer: ’86, okay. �Veteran: And then I got back orders back to New River. Now of course, here’s on the other side of the coin, now my daughter is old enough to see where she was born. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Of course, I don’t know if you are familiar with the term, but both of my kids are military brats. And in case anybody is curious, it means born, raised, and transferred in the service. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we are back there. Now this time, I get there in ’80—towards the end of ’86, but it was only a 3-year tour this time. I joined 360—yeah, 362 I went back to. And we lived in a different part of town and I joined another volunteer fire unit. And then, in ’90, it was kind of uneventful. Went on a few little debts. No more—I did in ’88, once we got back there, I did go on a North Atlantic cruise. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Called Teamwork 88. Up around Norway and then for liberty, we got to go to Ireland for 4 days. So, that was nice. But that was only, that was a short thing, just a—basically, war games with the Norwegian, Swedish, Royal Marines, British Navy up in the North Atlantic. (1:16:02) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now you get down toward 1990, now you’re getting to the point where Saddam Hussein decides that Kuwait should be the 21st province of Iraq and things get interesting again. �Veteran: Well, I was in North Carolina at the time, and I got orders to California this time. To Tustin Marine Corps Air Station helicopters. Now, this was in February of ’90 and the kids were in school so me and the wife talked about it and decided going to—now I am already to the point where I am on my last hitch, basically. But one thing we learned in the military, and it don’t matter what service, if you turned down orders, that’s an excuse for them to send you packing. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, I got orders. With the kids in school, we decided we are not going to pull the kids out of school because they would miss so much school, it would hurt them. So, her and the kids stayed in North Carolina and I headed out to California. Along the way, I kidnapped my wife’s grandmother. Well, I was traveling ahead and found out that my wife’s cousin lived in California and their grandmother was going to go out in a couple weeks to see them. Well, her cousin’s husband was going to leave on a Friday afternoon, drive all the way to Nashville, Tennessee, get a couple hours sleep and then drive back so he could be back to work on Monday and we are like, well, I am going anyway. So, we called them up to see if she could come out a couple weeks early and she rode with me. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I get out to there and I check in the HMH-466, part of that squadron. Now, one of the first things that happened is just becoming part of it, and I actually ended up in maintenance control again. Like I said, once you are in, you’re pretty much stuck. They’re going to—it’s going to happen. You learn to accept it. And then after the kids were out of school, in July I went back and got the family. Took some leave, went back and got the family. Actually, that would have been June, because in July our unit got orders up to mount warfare training, so we took a �couple of helicopters up there to play in the mountains on the north side of Yosemite. So, now I am seeing some place else I had never seen before. (1:18:20) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that’s one of the things I will be the first to admit, all the places I went, it was enjoyable. Except one, and we will get to that one later. The place was kind of enjoyable, but the whole reason we were there made it not so great. And then the other thing I recommend to people, when you are places, enjoy the local food, see. That’s like, regressing back a little bit to North Carolina, when—the first time I was there, we lived out in town. My next-door neighbor was a Jacksonville city police officer. And within a couple months, I knew more about the area than he did. I had been to the Battleship North Carolina, I had been to the Tryon Palace, which was the original government seat of the state of North Carolina. I got out and visited and did things, I didn’t just hang around the base or hang around the house. We would take the kids, we would go places. And I think that’s one of the big things. I think where a lot of guys get turned off of the military or women, both, I don’t want to pick on one or the other, they all they do is hang around the base and then after a while they get so frustrated, when there is so much to see out there. Interviewer: Alright. So, we are going to go back in here to your story. So, you go and do the mountain training, and then what happens next? Veteran: Well, while we are up in the mountain training, we got orders back to the base. Unit is pulling out. We are being deployed. This was a little different than going on a ship. We were taking 8 aircraft, and we were going to break them down. We are going to break them down so that they can be loaded into C5As. Once broken down, you can fit two and then you put crew on �top. We had our orders, we were going to Saudi Arabia. Now, my NCIC, considering I just got my family out there, put me on the last flight leaving. He said, “I will give you a little more time to spend with your family since you just got them.” So, I was on the last plane that left. We broke down our helicopter. It takes about 12-13 hours to get them completely broke down. You got to remove all the rotor blades, you got to remove one tail blade, an upward collision light, you got to fold the tail, you got to remove the gear box, you got to deflate the struts, you got to take the helicopter tires off and put jet tires on, you got to remove the fuel probe and all the electronic equipment too, and then they can actually be pushed into the C5As. (1:20:45) Interviewer: How long does it take to break one down? Veteran: About 12 hours. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Constant work. And it takes about 14 hours—it takes about 12 hours to put them together, and then you got to do a test flight, about 2-hour test flight, once you put them back together. Interviewer: Okay, now if you are flying in a C5A, it’s a big transport plane— Veteran: Right. Interviewer: What kind of accommodations does it have for passengers? Veteran: It has a whole upper area that is—seems like an airline. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s not like being in a C-130 or something like that? Veteran: No. I have flown in some of them too. �Interviewer: Okay. So again, it’s like 12-13 hours or whatever, a long flight out to Saudi Arabia. Veteran: Yeah, we flew from Tustin, California. Being how we were the last ones, we had to go straight through, where the others got to stop at the Air Force base outside of Philly. We flew straight through to Germany, and then once they got, once the embassies got clearance for us to fly over Egyptian airspace, then we went down and landed in—at Jebel International Airport, where our aircraft were offloading. We started putting them back together. Interviewer: Alright, so when did you actually get to Saudi Arabia? Veteran: Let’s see…It would have been August of 1990. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And now once you are there, what happens? (1:22:02) Veteran: Well we were at—first off, we were in Jebel, which is the international airport. Brand new, hadn’t even opened yet. Now the U.S. military is using it, and met some very interesting Saudi personnel. Some of the Saudi Navy was there, so they were really helpful in helping us get kind of acclimated to the area. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then we start putting our aircraft together and get them tested. And apparently, Saudis are some very nice people. We had been there about a week and one of the things we used to do was take tarps to cover the windscreens on the helicopters because that’s not glass, it’s a plexiglass composite material. And in that hot sun, they would warp. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: So, you cover them to protect them. Well the one—the Saudi crew that was sharing the area that we were at inside the hang—inside the terminal, asked us where they could get some of those so we gave them the information. And a couple nights later, we were invited over to one of their hangars. They had all these tarps spread out and they brought in dinner. They treated us to dinner, and then they had a whole refrigerated semi full of coke brought in because they were thankful, as far as they were concerned, us arriving so quick kept Saddam from invading. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Now, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I wasn’t going to turn down food. It was delicious. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the official Gulf War per se doesn’t start until early 1991, so you got a period of months there, there’s a build-up of allied forces going on. Veteran: Right. And then our unit, once our aircraft were fully tested and built up, we were moved to Ras al Ghar, we were moved closer to the front. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we could support the ground troops. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And the, anything else, heavy equipment, stuff like that. Interviewer: Okay. Aside from the heat, what other kinds of problems were there with trying to run a helicopter unit? (1:24:04) Veteran: The sand. Think of a sand blaster. What it would—you got this rotor head turning 20,000 rpm. So, we—rotor blades were an issue because when they are turning like that, �especially in the sand, it starts eating away at the paint and the material. So, we learned from the Israeli air force on tips to help with that problem. But I would say the biggest issue was the sand. Interviewer: Okay. And would that mess up other parts of the aircraft as well? Veteran: Yeah, it would. Interviewer: It would get into everything? Veteran: It would get into everything. And yes, it would be hard on the electronics, it would be hard on the air frame, it would be hard on just about every part of that aircraft. Interviewer: Okay. Now, while you are there this period of several months, I mean are you following news and trying to keep up on what’s happening or do you just do your job and ignore everything else? Veteran: We would hear occasionally—because once we got to Ras al Ghar, it wasn’t a whole lot of direct communication. Because, it was one of those things, in fact we had—a bunch of us had a t-shirt made and it showed the map of Saudi Arabia on it and it said “Somewhere, Somewhere Else.” You know, because you’re not allowed to say where you’re at. And we kind of made a joke about it but it was limited what we would get just because of that reason. Their thing was is if we had too much direct access, the enemy could figure out where we were. And you really don’t want them to know. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And that was the primary thing, and for the most part, you know, we’re helping get the troops placed where they need to be placed, we’re doing our jobs. And basically, that was the primary. �Interviewer: Okay, so you’re moving Marine personnel and supplies to different places? Veteran: Right. The artillery, stuff like that. And then we continue our training too because you never want to stop. The more you train, the better. The more—so you keep flying anyway, keep the aircraft available because you never know what’s going to happen. We didn’t know. Today its nice, peaceful. Tomorrow, we might get the word. So, we are going to be ready. (1:26:18) Interviewer: Okay, now aside from meeting some of the Saudis, do you see any of the other coalition people there? Veteran: We saw some Australians, course we saw Israelis. They helped, they were real helpful with a lot of that stuff because they deal with the sand all the time and they use a lot of U.S. aircraft. Interviewer: Were there Israelis in Saudi Arabia? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Wow, you don’t hear about that too often. Veteran: Not in a sense that they were a part of the coalition, but they were—because they were allies. They were there to help us get through that stuff because they had their side of the fence to really watch. Interviewer: Okay, because I guess that’s the period when Saddam is shooting Scud missiles at Israel as well as Saudi Arabia. Veteran: And just shooting them everywhere. Interviewer: Yep. �Veteran: Yeah, he wasn’t too particular. Of course, the Scud missile was not one of your most accurate. Once you launched it—you could aim it at, let’s say Riyadh, and it might hit 60 miles the other way. It was not a very accurate missile, so once they launched, everybody is put on alert because you don’t know where it might land. Interviewer: Now, did any of them land in any of the areas where you were? Veteran: We had a couple of close calls. The Patriot missiles took care of that. We got put on alert. Got woke up at 0’dark thirty in the morning to go get in our bunkers because there was one headed, and the Patriot missiles took care of them. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: None that actually hit but there were a few times. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how much sort of outside news are you getting while you are there? Communications any better than they were back in the Vietnam era or…? (1:28:00) Veteran: Oh yeah, they were a lot better because a lot more computerized. And the squadron was also trying to help. Like what they would do is they’d call up—get the wives and families—over to the squadron, the hangar, and they would do a videotape. So, you could say hi to everybody, and then they would send that to us. And then they would at times—of course, we couldn’t do like the family did and meet all at one time, we’d have to do it a little bit at a time because you’ve still got jobs to do. And then we would get to return—and then they would send it back. Mail was a little bit better. I won’t say a lot because the mail system when you are…But it was a little bit better. Of course, you’re in an area where you can get more news. We weren’t too far from Aramco, the international oil company that serviced the oil rigs for the Saudis. So, you had those people. They would come and visit and they would pass things on. And there was a little, �you know, of course you’re talking in the ‘90s, now you’ve got satellites are more prevalent so. But you didn’t have like tvs in every tent or nothing like that but it was a little more accessible. Interviewer: Right. So, you’re not watching CNN or— Veteran: No. Interviewer: Or that kind of thing. Veteran: No. He did. Saddam. That’s one of the reasons they didn’t want us broadcasting where we were or getting—because he’s paying attention on those. Interviewer: Mhmm. Yeah. Okay, now as we get closer to the operation starting, how much advance warning did you have that it was on? Veteran: Well, we kind of got a sneak peek. Our maintenance, our supply chief—material control chief—had gone up to Jubail, where our group headquarters was, to pick up some supplies and he heard something was in the wind. He didn’t hear any details but he did pick up. So, when he got back—so we started prepping. They, we got everybody up at 3 o’clock in the morning, set up crews. We were going to make sure we were ready. And if it didn’t happen, well, that’s alright. But it did happen. We got orders to launch. (1:30:11) Interviewer: Okay, so now what happens? Veteran: Well, we got our 8 aircraft ready to go and we launched them. Our sister squadron launched theirs and at that point, all we can do is sit and wait. Wait until they come back. Interviewer: So, how long would they be out? Veteran: Well that first day, they were gone most of the day. And then if you’ve ever seen war movies where they all—where you see guys sitting there counting planes when they would come �back? Well, that’s what we did when they started coming back. We are sitting there counting them as they fly by, to make sure we had 8 come back. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: We sent 8 out, we want 8 coming back. And we were lucky. For the most—we didn’t lose any aircraft at any given time. Interviewer: Okay. And did you learn anything about what they actually had done while they were out? Veteran: Yeah, we would hear about it, because of course they would have to go debrief and all of that. And of course, you would hear about it sooner or later. It would be different things going on. Part of it, which I won’t go into any details—I don’t know what’s considered anything—but part of it we’d be relocating the troops. Okay the troops are at this point, now they’re over here or the artillery was here, now we are moving it over here. You know, strategic placements. Interviewer: Mhmm. But they are not involved in any kind of combat assault sort of thing or…? Veteran: In a way, because we would fly the troops to the combat zone. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then they would offload to go. To that extent, or we would take the artillery crew and their gun to a spot where they are going to start firing. So, our helicopters with their .50 cals are their initial defense when we first land. Hopefully—and one of the reasons you don’t want to keep the helicopters, because that would, as big as it is, it would give away a position sooner or later. So, you’d get them in and then get out. (1:32:09) �Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Veteran: So, they could do their job faster. Interviewer: Yeah. And I guess a lot of weapons have long enough range that that bad guy some distance away with machine guns or whatever could still target you, with missiles or whatever they’ve got. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. So, now the—how long does this sort of go on? I mean does it just…Because like the war, per se, the shooting war officially is only a few days. Veteran: Well, for the troops and that—ours went on quite longer because you had to move them, they had to move them to Kuwait so we had to support—keep them supplied. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And then if any were—they had the helicopters to bring those that were injured, or wounded or whatever, out. Plus, you bring in fresh supplies, fresh troops. Our helicopter squadron was one of the first 53 squadrons there and most of the 53s, of all of the squadrons that were there, were some of the last to leave. Because of the versatility. Interviewer: Right. Because you are moving personnel and supplies around. Veteran: We could move personnel, we could move the cargo. We can recover a Humvee that’s broke down or been shot up. We can recover a downed jet. It’s so versatile, there’s more that it can do. So, it’s—so when you start sending the smaller helicopters back, you keep the bigger one because they can do their job plus his. Interviewer: Now, did you go into Kuwait at all yourself? �Veteran: No, I did not. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so how long then the does the squadron stay in Saudi Arabia? Veteran: We left in March of ’91. Interviewer: Okay. So, a couple months sort of after the action. Veteran: Yep. Yeah, right. Interviewer: Okay. And from there, is it back to California again? Veteran: Back to California to rebuild the aircraft. Then back…In all this time, I am still in maintenance control and sitting there and end up back in mountain warfare training with a couple aircraft for another stint. And then it was one more trip to Okinawa. And that’s when I took the battlefield tour, because I found out that my dad had fought there. It was a way to kind of connect, since I was so young when he passed. (1:34:29) Interviewer: Okay. And now with Okinawa, does your family stay back in California? Veteran: Yes. Yeah, because it is basically a 6-month debt. The aircraft stay there but they rotate the personnel. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: The basic policy was you go out for 6 months, you’re back for 12-18. And then you go out for another 6. Interviewer: Mhmm. Now, you’re getting towards the end of your enlistment though, so this trip is sort of your last. Is that your last one? Veteran: In fact, that—when I went to Okinawa, it wasn’t my last trip. �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: When I went to Okinawa, while we were there, the Stars and Stripe, which is the military paper for the bases in the far east, had an article about General Schwarzkopf announcing his retirement. A week later the next paper comes out and here’s General Colin Powell announcing his retirement. I’m like “Hmmm.” What do they know that I don’t? That was my thought. I don’t know if it meant anything but…So, I went up and put in my retirement package because once you reach 13 months, you can put in. and then I kind of thought “yeah, I think it’s time to retire” because the S1 clerk was actually born two weeks after I went to bootcamp. So, now I am thinking “yeah maybe it is time to retire, this kid wasn’t even around when I started.” But it wasn’t quite to be. I still had one more trip. Got back from Okinawa and we went to Somalia in December of ’92. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Operation Restore Hope. Interviewer: Alright, so to go out there, are you going to be in a carrier or…? (1:36:06) Veteran: We were land-based. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They did the same thing. We broke up aircraft, put them on C-5As, and we flew to Somalia. Interviewer: Okay. And what kind of facility or base did you have there? Veteran: Initially, we were at the port to get the aircraft built up. Eventually, we relocated out to the international airport, which really, aside from the buildings, didn’t really exist anymore with �everything that had gone on. But we were out there. We operated out of the international airport, or what was left of it. Interviewer: Okay, so what kind of facilities did you have there? Were you living in tents or…? Veteran: Yes. In fact, both in Desert Storm, Desert Shield in Somalia, above my tent flew the flag of the state of Michigan. It was presented to me by…My mom lived in Melvindale and the city councilman got it flown over the state capitol and then sent to me. So, I made sure to fly it. And I have pictures of it. Interviewer: Very good. Alright, and so what was going on…I mean, in Somalia, what are you seeing? What are you doing? Veteran: The first reason we were there was to help the Red Cross. The international Red Cross was having so much trouble getting aid to the people because of these warlords. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: They would hold them up for contraband. And by the time they would get in the country, they would have pretty much nothing left. So, our primary mission at first was to help the Red Cross do its job. And of course, when you’ve got Marine Cobra helicopters and Marine Humvees with machine guns, there wasn’t a whole lot of arguments from the warlords. We were able to start getting food out to the people. That was the main thing. I would, I don’t know if our job was to interfere with the warlords or that that was higher above my pay grade, I just took care of the aircraft. But I am sure there was other things we were supposed to do there but that was kind of obvious. The Red Cross needed that assistance. (1:38:06) �Interviewer: Okay. And were there people from other countries there? Veteran: Yes. In fact, on the other side of the airport was an Australian detachment. We used to trade our MRE meals. There was also a Sudanese…I am not sure, but they were to the south of us. In fact, they caught a couple of individuals trying to sneak in with weapons. So, they were kind of being a perimeter of security for all of us operating out of the airfield. I think it was—I don’t know, I am not 100% sure, but I think it was. And we met them a couple times. Met a couple others. Some Canadians. Interviewer: Okay. And were you there when the Black Hawk down incident took place or was that— Veteran: No, I wasn’t. We had already left by then. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so while you were there was it relatively quiet? Or not a lot of shooting going on? Veteran: There was an occasional incident. When we first got there, there was an incident where a local tried to rush the main gate with an old World War 2 rifle. Of course, you’ve got Marines there on the main gate. But he did actually hit the tail of one of the C5s so they had to stop him. They figure he was either on drugs or something, to do something that silly. But for the most part, most of the issues were out. I mean, no matter where you go, there’s going to always be some. Interviewer: Mhmm. And was that physically the worst assignment you had? Or was Saudi Arabia worse or…? �Veteran: That was the worst assignment. Anywhere else that we went, even Saudi Arabia, I did spend some time where we would have basically liberty. And you could see a little bit. And there was the local food. Obviously, you’re not going to try and eat local food there because there was no…anything, you lived on your MREs. And I think because it was so close to my retirement. And the fact that here is this—this country was just shambles. You got all of these warlords, and all they are doing is basically fighting each other and fighting their own people for their power. They didn’t care about anything else. (1:40:28) Interviewer: Okay. So, getting out and visiting the country is not really an option there? Veteran: No. You’re not…That would have probably been your death warrant, personally. Personal opinion. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so when do you get out of Somalia then? Veteran: Got back in April of ’93. Interviewer: Okay. And then you retire? Veteran: July. Interviewer: Okay. So now you are sort of on the way out. Now, was this sort of standard for Marine Corps enlisted to serve 20 years if you’re going to be a career person? Or would people go longer than that? Veteran: It is kind of based on rank by DOD. Each rank—now, as a staff sergeant, 20 years is the max you are allowed. Interviewer: Okay. �Veteran: A gunny can go longer, which would…And then a master sergeant or first sergeant could go even longer. It’s not uncommon. A lot, especially if you spend it all in the fleet where you are gone a lot, like I was. It’s not uncommon. After 20 years, you’re kind of worn out. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, a lot of them would call it quits at that point. And then there’s others that some have stayed in only their 4 years, some have stayed in 8, some…Then one guy I knew, he was in for 15 years and called it quits. Each and—that’s an individual thing. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have prospects to go higher and get another promotion or did you…? Veteran: No, it— Interviewer: Or was that not really in line for you with what you were doing? Veteran: There was always the prospects, because you would go in front of the boards and they would review. I missed—I didn’t get it the first time. It—that happens. But again, the 20 years, I was kind of worn out. (1:42:08) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I’ll be honest about it. Interviewer: Alright. So, once you do get out, what do you do next? Veteran: Well, first off, coming back in April and then leaving in July, there wasn’t a lot of planning available. Interviewer: Right. �Veteran: But one—So, we were able to put our stuff out there in California in storage. Military put it in storage. And then we went cross country and ended up in Detroit, because that’s where my wife’s family and my mom were living. Kind of hit or miss. Now, luckily, of course you got out—had time once we got back. Now the job situation? There wasn’t a whole lot there. Not in the Detroit area. So, I was down in a Tennessee a couple times, because we thought about settling down there because most of my wife’s family is from Tennessee. Because that’s where she was born. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But one day I am looking in the papers, and there was quite a few jobs up in this area so I though, “Well, I’ll give it a shot.” So, I come up here for a couple days. Stayed at what was the Holiday Inn on Ann street, it’s now an independent. And I kind of liked it. I had never been here before. But I thought you know what, I better bring the family up. See what they think before I make this decision because this is going to be—and they liked it. And we stayed. And we have been here ever since. Interviewer: Okay, so who did you work for? Veteran: For the first couple of months, I worked for Spartan Foods at their warehouse. I was a security guard. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Then I went to work for Brinks. Armored car service. And I worked with them until I retired in 2015. Interviewer: Okay, so you didn’t go into anything aviation related or anything like that? �Veteran: No. I did work, I did eventually work my way up to their ATM manager, so I was dealing with electronics a lot. Interviewer: Okay. So, you worked up that way. Alright. And now to look back at your career in the service, I mean overall, what do you think you took out of that? Or how did that effect you? (1:44:07) Veteran: Well one of the big things, it gave me a perspective to look at both sides of a coin. You know, you go to these countries and you hear stories. Or even here in the states, you hear stories. But you only hear their side of the story. I kind of learned to see both sides of the coin. You know, you hear the person complaining about something and you hear the person that’s for that same thing that this person is against, but you kind of learn to be able to pull out the common denominators and see. Yeah, I understand what you’re saying, I understand what you are saying, but maybe we need to do this to make it work. And I think that was the biggest thing. And learning wherever you go, always visit and enjoy. You’ll be surprised how friendly people are. And I am not talking governments or tourist traps, I am talking get out. I think those are the two biggest things. Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for pretty good stories, so thanks for coming and sharing it today. Veteran: Yeah. You want to hear one good story, this is one that I have talked about a lot. Of course, we worked on the aircraft. They would have discrepancies. One of—a friend of mine, when they did the specializing, he ended up in the OV-10 squadron, observation squadron. And they had a pilot from a jet declare an emergency at the base we were at. Emergency landing. He was downing the airplane and he taxied over. I am not going to go into the whole story but �basically, when he wrote up the gripe and the avionics shop looked at it and they showed it to the maintenance officer, the pilot was in a little bit of hot water because he had written up that the radar altimeter on his jet would not work on inverted flight. (1:46:08) Interviewer: What does that mean? Veteran: The radar altimeter, it sends a radar signal from one antenna down to the ground to bounce up into another antenna to tell the jet how high off the ground he is. Inverted flight, he’s flying upside down. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We’re trying to find out what he planned to bounce that signal off of if he’s upside down. But that’s why the training. He—it wasn’t that he didn’t know what he was doing, it’s just he probably never paid attention before. And we had maintenance people that would make those kind of…You’d think “Well, that’s kind of dumb.” Well that’s why we train. Interviewer: Okay, so he really didn’t even know how his own system worked? So that if you are trying to bounce something off of the sky, maybe that doesn’t work so well. Veteran: Yeah. But that’s, there’s the reason we are training. And then the other thing I learned is don’t always assume or memorize. They actually taught us not to memorize things in the military, they taught us to use the manuals, use the books. He said the processes might not change. And one instructor spelled it out. He says “Okay, you got a rotor head. That rotor head holds 6 rotor blades. Each of those blades has 14 bolts, let’s say.” He said, “I am not going to give you exact numbers, I am just using this as an example. Now, let’s say according to the book, you have to torque each of those bolts a thousand foot-pounds, because its head is turning.” He says, “Okay, you memorize it. That’s how you do it every day, every day, every day. Now, a �year from now, the company that makes this aircraft realizes 1000 ain’t right. Maybe it’s supposed to be 2000, or maybe it’s supposed to be only 800, but you are still doing 1000. Now you are risking that crew and those troops’ lives. So, we were always taught to use books, to read, to pay attention. Not just to automatically do it. And I think those are the biggest things. Interviewer: Okay. Alright then. Thank you. Veteran: Thank you. This was interesting. (1:48:08) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ThrasherD2190V Title A name given to the resource Thrasher, David (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-12 Description An account of the resource Dave Thrasher was born on May 19th, 1953 in Detroit, Michigan. Thrasher joined the Marine Corps in 1973 and attended boot camp at the Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot in San Diego, California, where trained in aviation electronics and worked on the Marine Corps helicopters. After his training, he was deployed to Cambodia for Operation Eagle Pull and remained off the coast of Vietnam to aid in the evacuation effort. Thrasher also participated in joint operation Display Determination as well as efforts to rescue people escaping Cuba and Teamwork 88 military exercise in Norway. He was stationed in Somalia for both Desert Storm and Desert Shield before returning to California in April, 1993, leaving the service, and settling in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thrasher, David Ross Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9805f0362daf4e73ef3b19b2e877610.pdf 65a4b3d73e0b74660c893e158fa72041 PDF Text Text GRAND RAPIDS l 1981 �INTRODUCTION . THE GOALS OF THE THREE FIRES FESTIVITIES ARE TO PRESERVE AND ADVANCE MICHIGAN INDIAN CULTURE, BY THE COMING TOGETHER OF MANY INDIAN TRIBES TO HONOR INDIAN ART, AND TO AQUAINT OUR NON-INDIAN FRIENDS, AND NEIGHBORS WITH THE RIC~ HERITAGE OF AMERICAN INDIAN ARTISTS, ARTISANS, AND DANCE SPECIALISTS, THE TWO DAY EVENT WILL STRESS THIS CULTURE AND HERITAGE THROUGH SONG, DANCE, ART, CRAFTS, AND A SERIES OF SHORT NARRATED CEREMONIES DEPICTING THE LIFESTYLES OF MICHIGAN INDIANS BEFORE, OR AT THE TIME OF, THE ARRIVAL OF EUROPEANS TO THE GREAT LAKES AREA, 1. �PERTAINING TO ART CONTEST MASTER OF CEREMONIES: JOHN BAILEY HOST DRUM: oMI-GI-ZI SINGERS LEAD SINGER: WINDY WHITE LEAD DANCER - f1EN 'S: -DENNIS SHANANAQUETLEAD DANCER WOMEN'S: -PUNKIN MARTIN- 2, PAUL COLLINS, INTERNATIONALLY KNOWN ARTIST, IS HELPING TO ORGANIZE AND COORDINATE THE ART CONTEST, THE ART CONTEST HAS TEN CATEGORIES, AND THEY ARE: BEADWORK, LEATHER WORK, WOODWORK, QUILLWORK, METAL WORK, BASKETS, QUILTS, AND OF COURSE PAINTINGS AND DRAWINGS BY AMERICAN INDIANS, THIS VERY RICH HERITAGE OF AMERICAN INDIPNS CAN Ef SEEN IN THEIR ARTISTIC CREATIONS, MANY CONTEMPORY ARTISTS CARES AND ~ONCERNS ARE SHOWN IN THEIR DRAWINGS, SOME METHODS OF CONSTRUTION ARE DATED BACK TO THE TIME BEFORE THE NON-INDIAN PEOPLE APPEARED ON THIS CONTINENT, 3, �POW HOW PROGRAM POW vmw PROGRAM -SATURDAY AFTERNOON- ~: ~: ~: ~: 10. 3, GRAND ENTRY: FLAG SONG: INVOCATION: INTERTRIBALS: INTRODUCE: SPECIALTY DANCING ROUND DANCING RABBIT DANCING INTERTRIBALS RETIRE FLAG: -SUNDAY AFTERNOON- EVERYONE RISE 2:00 PM EVERYONE RISE EVERYONE RISE EACH DRUM SINGERS, HEAD DANCERS 2:3. 4. 5. 6. l: 9 EVERYONE RISE lt 13. +~: i6. -SATURDAY EVENING1, 2. 3. 4, 5, ~: 8. !¢. i2: 13. 14. 15. 16. GRAND ENTRY: FLAG SONG: INVOCATION: INTRODUCE: INTERTRIBALS: ART CONTEST CONTEST: SPECIALTY DANCING CONTEST: CONTEST: INTERTRIBALS CONTEST: CONTEST: REQUESTS HONOR SONGS RETIRE FLAG L7, EVERYONE RISE 7:00 PM EVERYONE RISE EVERYONE RISE SINGERS, HEAD DANCERS EACH DRUM TINY TOTS 18. 19, 20. EVERYONE RISE 1:00 PM GRAND ENTRY: EVERYONE RISE FLAG SONG: EVERYONE RISE INVOCATION: SINGERS, HEAD DANCERS INTRODUCE: EACH DRUM INTERTRIBALS BABY CONTEST SPECIALTY DANCING VETERANS SONG INTERTRIBALS WOMAN;S TRADITIONAL CONTEST: ONE INTERTRIBAL WOMAN'S FANCY CONTEST: ONE INTERTRIBAL MEN'S TRADITIONAL CONTEST: ONE INTERTRIBAL MEN'S FANCY CONTEST: RETIRE FLAG REQUESTS ANNOUNCE A6l WINNERS, ALL COMMITTEES, ALL GUESTS HONOR SONG: FOR ALL 0-5 BOYS 6-12 GIRLS 6-12 JR, BOYS 13-17 GIRLS 13-17 EVERYONE RISE EVERYONE RISE i 4. , I 5. I, ! I �FANCY DANCE: MEN &WOMEN TRADITIONAL MEN &WOMEN FANCY DANCING IS MORE OF A COMPETITIVE DANCE OF SPEED AND COORDINATION IN FOOT WORK AND BODY MOVEMENT, TRADITIONAL DANCING IS THE ORIGINAL STYLE OF NATIVE AMERICAN DANCING AND CONSIDERED HIGHLY RESPECTED BY ALL NATIVE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THEY ARE JUDGED ON THEIR TRADITIONAL OUTFITS, ALSO A FANCY DANCER MUST KEEP TIME WITH THE DRUM, START WHEN IT DOES AND STOP WHEN IT DOES, THEY ARE JUDGED BY STYLE, CARRIAGE AND OUTFIT, THE FEATHERS, BELLS, AND BEADS ARE ALL IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE STYLE THEY CHOOSE, ~•~-~r -- . ·- i I' li ~~. "J,,'Jfffl!JtW '/ ' _'"):/;/ 6, / . ' 7. �FRIENDS OF THE POW WOW CO-SPONSORS GRAND RAPIDS PARKS DEPARTMENT GRAND RAPIDS INTERTRIBAL COUNCIL PETER C, AND EMA JEAN COOK CHARITABLE TRUST RAPID STANDARD FOUNDATION P,M, WEGE ME I JER, I NC SCHNIZELBANK RESTAURANT LEAR SIEGLER KEELER BRASS COMPANY MICHIGAN NATIONAL BANK CEN TRAL THE UNIVERSAL COMPAN IES PAUL COL~I NS EBERHARD S LEONARD AND JUNE WESTDALE MI GI 21 SINGE RS BISSELL, INCORPORATED EMPLOYEES CHARITY ALLOYTELE, INC, SPARTAN STORES UNION BANK HYLAND GR~TA BERKOWITZ FOUNDATION STEKETTEE S CLARK9 FOOD STORE DOUMA S ART SUPPLY CARL FORSHUND WESTSIDE MARKET LITJLE MEXICO CAFE DONS TATOO SHOP FOOD AND BEVERAGE CENTER B & L LIQ90RS MIDDLETON S DRUGS OLD WORLD GALLERY CHIC'S PAINT &WALLPAPER MITI-MINI MART WEST COMES EAST PAT CARLTON DELIGHT BAKERY KEEBLER TOM FOX kOGER'S MERCHANDISE & SHOES MC SPORTI~G GOODS MC DONALDS RESTAURANTS I - 0 I; l \/ /_ .,·-\ ·\ t\. -~ .~)iJ// t ~:,_.·'""'·· ij. i·.."·\;.' . ._·.-,_· :\ti\,.-.~.-)v\ lJ - I 1 ;. I1/',, ,, [ / l L~ l / ' , ,•;, ' j.·- 1,~; ;· ·. :,· ~1. , if!:''·· . t<idt\i' ,· -. \. . ~: i ' ', . . ·--; -: ...., . i_l ' •/ - a ,. if ' l • . ' • -r... ·1Y>- ·, - f' l ' I j J • : " ,- , :'fuJ_, . .. . . '!,'-,_ ; - I, '10 • ·', -~~t_'tv·,,-1·' ·.r ~'-'" ·-- -. , -·· · /,._,._."_ . \_\ '· "\ \ ,"" . ~./"x.tb ·"-.'... . - '·, .... ~ "-', A\ \ ""' ~1,1:~ L; wcuz " , l~ '_,,1,"f' .,' ;;; \<[ ~; ;~· - ..,,~~~.i' ,. · " ,\ -~ t.~~ (1 . - 'll\ '\·-.'f"'''F-.. ;;.,,,,._ -.;;f, , :. .-Ir- 11• !:·\· ,iA-"!::v -,:.'. ' R!'~.. ----- I' • \ ' .cwt; l\ J/!:.' ,, i• .,f' ".';.~ - '.jf~' ,;-.,/::::,":.,:':,'.?/ '~.~;· •..;.~ /. , /~,:s l{/ ~~ • .... /, r(; \ ' , •' . ')~- ' - -~ ll.ir'i' /,] ' 't I / /. ·_.-. ·''. ; ~' ' "*d/ .- 1' L· / 8. s~~vTEt PUBLIC WOOD BROADCASTING 1 k,~!.\. -"t,...,, ,,i ·"· ' ,', "\~~V\{} t\~lil!IS • ' ., . .,·. "'i.-d}iK\!1 _ ' THANKS ~\J,,t· /. J, . \, J<1' ,l,J,A, ' \ ' :. . ·, -· -··-·l!l'l, -""~ ' ., ',•'·, · ,,1. ' ' WLAV WTWN WGRD WJFM WZZM TV 13 WUHQ TV 41 THE GRAND RAPIDS PRESS THE ADVANCE NEWSPAPER __;.- 9, ii '\ �ID~e @,c~nit 5elbank RESTAURANT & COCKTAIL LOUNGE 4.59-9527 Hefner's Art Gallery 1440 Wealthy, S.E. (West of Lake Drive) Grand Rapids, Mi. 49506 Telephone: (616) 458-1715 RANCH REALTY 2739 Breton Road, S.E. Grand Rapids, Michigan 49506 Business (616) 942-8900 Residence (616) 458-3687 JIM WHITE Each Office is Independently Owned and Operated � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Native American Publication Collection Subject The topic of the resource Native Americans Indians of North America Anthropology Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Michigan Description An account of the resource Selected digital surrogates of published and unpublished materials from the Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection dealing with different aspects of human culture and anthropology, with an emphasis on Native American people, events, organizations, and activities in Michigan. Includes newsletters, event programs, flyers, posters and other printed materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillis, Edward V. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American Publication Collection (RHC-14)</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Project (Kutsche Office of Local History) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1958-2000 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection, RHC-14</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14_three-fires-pow-wow_1981 Title A name given to the resource Homecoming of the Three Fires Pow-Wow, June 1981 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1981-06 Description An account of the resource Homecoming of the Three Fires Pow-Wow program, Grand Rapids, MI 1981 collected by Edward Gillis included as part of his Native American publication collection. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Three Fires Pow-wow Committee Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Indians of North America Michigan Michigan -- Grand Rapids Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6c8576f117c012b1da3c5d4015d83b2a.pdf 436e7b98242a52b79161bf974e6920b7 PDF Text Text HOMECOMING OF THE THREE FIRES POW WOW AH-NAB-AWEN PARK - JUNE 15-16, 1985 -- Grand Rapids, Michigan �EL SOMBRERO -WELCOME- 527 BRIDGE, N.W. 10:30 A.M. - 3 A.M. MON. THRU SAT. SUN. 12 P.M. - 12 A .M. Home of the Burrito and Wet Burrito PASTOOR'S SHOP-RITE 215 MICHIGAN STREET, N.E. GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN 49503 Ph. 458·5915 The Chavez Family Phone 451-4290 &f1 LL Pf1 RI\ FLOR f1 L 8 VALLEY AVE., N. W . GRAND RAPIDS, Ml 49504 Lou Veenstra - owner HOFFMAN'S CONVENIENCE STORE 1034 Bridge, N.W. Grand Rapids, Michigan 49504 Phone 451-8307 Gift Baskets Gift Boxes Imported Beer and Wine Liquor Lottery TELEPHONE 459-3409 P,o& & C:1.thn ...Lon9(;AJ The Three Fires Pow Wow Committee 1985, wishes to welcome everyone, to its seventh annual Pow Wow. This Pow Wow originated as an honoring of the original people of Michigan, the Ottawa, Chippewa, and the Potawatomi Nations. It is to these three Nations, the name Three Fires refers to. It has become an annual event, of the sharing of our culture, to both the Anishnawbe (Indian) and the non-Indian members of our community. We hope that you will gain a greater understanding and appreciation of our Native American culture, through participation today. The event will feature Nativ~ American culture through music, dance, arts .ind crafts and food. As Anishnawbe, we are proud to use this opportunity to display our rich heritage and culture. We hope that the community will see that Indian people are not extinct, but maintain as a part of today's society. It is along the banks of the Grand River, called by the Anishnawbe, Owashtanong, that in 1761, in the place where the rapids flow the fastest, that Chief Pontiac, assembled members from the three Nations of Michigan. We were later refered to as the Three Fires Confederacy. The existence of the Three Fires Confederacy assured territorial control and protection from other groups. It is along these banks of the Owashtanong that many Anishnawbe villages existed. Chief Qua-ke-zik (Noonday) had his village located just north of Bridge St. Chief Me-gis-o-nee-nee (Wampumman) had his village located near Fulton St. It was here where Treaty Councils took place. It is along this river where generations of Native people were born, lived, and died. And it is here today, where we honor the people of the Three Fires, and welcome them to share a part of their culture, with the many cultures that will be present today. Treat your eyes to the movements and regelia of our dancers, and let your ears and heart, listen to our heartbeat, the Drum, and allow yourself to become part of this grand celebration. Chi Megwetch Three Fires Pow Wow Committee �-AGENDA6:30 A.M. 11 :00 A.M. 2:00 P.M. Sunrise Ceremony Catholic Services (Father Haskell) Grand Entry Flag Song Invocation (Joe John) lntertribal Songs and Dance Veterans' Dance Tots Contest 5:00 P.M . Dinner Break 7:00 P.M. Grand Entry Flag Song Invocation lntertribals Four Dance Contests Specials Dusk Retiring of the Flag Sunday, June 16, 1985 2:00 P.M. Grand Entry Flag Song Invocation Intertriba Is Veterans' Dance Four Dance Contests Specials Awarding of Prizes Victory Dance Retiring of the Flag I PHOTOS BY GARTH BUTLER �IF YOU CANT CO TO MEXICO, WE'LL BRING MEXICO TO YOU. Ro6ie Canafe6 401 STOCKING, NW, GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN TELEPHONE n4-8822 .............../'-..--........"-"'-.,,._,__,_"-...............,.................. ~ CCJCI\IAll lt IJ~~I 1 Compliments of Frank Przybysz PHOENIX PRINTING (corner of Leonard and Fuller, N.E.) AND PUBLISHING CO. An Enterprise of Fine Quality 35 South Division Avenue Grand Rapids , Ml 49503 CHICKEN BASKET 616-459-7373 OLE FASHION COUNTRY FLAVOR - AIN'T NONE BETTER Jusr a few of rhe rhings we do. 1200 W. Fulton 451-8837 (One block east of John Ball Park Zoo) Open Everyday 11-9 p.m. Fri.-Sat. 11-10 p.m. Drive Thru Available CHICKEN - FISH - SHRIMP WEST MICHIGAN'S #l CHOICE CHICKEN ii~ Zoo II I Fulton N I j x, G) Ill :::l. <ii" 0:: Envelopes Cusrom Wedding lnvirorions Lerrerheods and Accessories Producr Orochures Marches Fliers Ourrons Labels Menus Snap-A-Parr Forms Door 1-(,nob Hangers Newslerrers Conrinuous Forms Neri- Forms Conrinuous Lerrerheods Ousiness Cords and Envelopes Posrers One ro Four Color Priming rsecord Sleeves & Labels Complere Oindery Services Cosserre Labels Logo Design Coosrers Typeserring If you don'r see ir! Jusr give us a coll, Chances ore we've done ir all. �lf~_t··:~~·:1~_ ~} ' -:.t •:a:. ~{; HEAD PERSONEL ,..,, ..··1 i 1 f. • ,._ ' i1IX ~· '?,../ ~, .,, , : .. ~ ' . k , ·..: ~ M.C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _John Bailey Head Dancers .. ...... . ... .. . George and Syd Martin Host Drum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Smokeytown Singers Head Singer ..... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Miran Pyawasit Neopit, Wisconsin Areana Director . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ike Peters ' ) Veteran Dancer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Frank Bush Head Judge ............ . . . .... . Henry "Tic" Bush 1 MULDER'S FAMILY RESTAURANT J 1040 Leonard, N.W. 3874 Plainfield, N.E. Breakfast All Day Open 6:00 a.m. - 9:00 p.m. Sun. thru Thurs. 6:00 a.m. - 10:00 p.m. Fri. and Sat. Head Dancers George and Syd Martin PHOTOS BY GARTH BUTLER �I -THANK YOU The Three Fires Pow Wow Committee wishes to thank the following donors for making this event possible. Megwetch Amway Corporation Auto Die City of Grand Rapids Chinatown Restaurant Coca Cola Bottling Robert and Ann Cooper Copper and Brass Inc. Deli Restaurant Dy Dee Service Dyer Ives Foundation Fulton Drugs Grand Rapids Foundation Grand Rapids Press Grand Rapids Singers Paul and Helen Hoffman Lear Siegler Maghiesel Tool and Die Co ., Inc. Mazda-Great Lakes North Kent Community Ed. Rapistan Co. The Sabastian Foundation Schnitzelbank Restaurant, Inc. Steelcase Foundation Union Bank The Universal Companies W.B.D.C. Inc. The Wege Foundation White and White Pharmacy Wolverine Co. PHOTOS BY GARTH BUTLER ~ NEW OWNER Tom Veneklase Johnny's Sport Shop, Inc. 736 Bridge St. N.W. Grand Rapids, Ml 49504 (616) 458-0922 Available In Essence Of: MINNOW - LEECH - CRAWFI SH CRICKET - SALMON EGG SHRIMP - NIGHT CRAWLER OPEN EARLY 7 DAYS Complete Outfitters tor Big Lake and Inland Fishing Fishing Licen1e1 · Li ve Bait· Co mplete Selectio n of Tac kle Rod & Reel Repair • Wh izk Jig Head s• Wh izk Fl oating Head s • Wh izk'n Hooks • Whizker Wo rm Wei gh ts ee-ri<~'- ~WHU~ ii t.~ ~~~~~ ~1 :.1:,11:1:J l:l• 1 IUlllf ~ w ~· -0 �-THANK YOUWe wish to thank the following people for the countless number of hours they volunteered in helping make this event a success. Megwetch The Three Fires Pow Wow Committee Evelyn Biggs John Basin Frank Bush Lois Bush Tic Bush Evelyn Castaneda Fred Chivis Fred Chivis Jr. Mary Church Isabel Compos Lynne Feaster Kotney Floyd Crystal Fox Jackie Fox Suzanne Fox Debra Gibbs Elizabeth Gibbs June Gorman Wally Hall John Hart Helen Hillman Joe John Patrick Kasequat Kim Lewis George Martin Syd Martin Merri Medawis Bill Memberto Phil Memberto Phillis Memberto Joseph Shomin Robin Menefee Gene Peters Ike Peters Mary Peters Ted Peters Raymond Robinson Bobbie Rosencrans Charles Shananaquet Dave Shananaquet Karly Shananaquet Larry Shananaquet Paul Shananaquet Punkin Shananaquet Genevieve Shirley Liz Shirley Sabrina Shirley Gary Shomin Janet Shomin Josh Shomin Leroy Shomin Melissa Shomin Jeanette St. Clair Kyle St. Clair Liz St. Clair Percy St. Clair Windy White Roger Williams David R. Wonegeshik Sr. Patsy Wonegeshik Angeline Yob Juan Martell PHOTOS BY GARTH BUTLER �WEST SIDE TRADING POST 913 Bridge, N.W. Phone 454-2303 Services: * Dry Cleaning and Shirt Laundry * Post Office Sub-station 648 Bridge St., N.W. * Groceries, Beer, Wine and more. Pal Joeys • ® METROPOLITAN DEVELOPERS, INC. 168 l.oui.r Campau Promenade Grand Rapid.r. Michigan Home Builders and Remodelers 454-3141 931 Bridge St., N.W. Grand Rapids, Ml 49504 343 MICHIGAN N. E. GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Native American Publication Collection Subject The topic of the resource Native Americans Indians of North America Anthropology Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Michigan Description An account of the resource Selected digital surrogates of published and unpublished materials from the Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection dealing with different aspects of human culture and anthropology, with an emphasis on Native American people, events, organizations, and activities in Michigan. Includes newsletters, event programs, flyers, posters and other printed materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillis, Edward V. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American Publication Collection (RHC-14)</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Project (Kutsche Office of Local History) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1958-2000 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection, RHC-14</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14_three-fires-pow-wow_1985-06 Title A name given to the resource Homecoming of the Three Fires Pow-Wow program, June 1985 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-06 Description An account of the resource Homecoming of the Three Fires Pow-Wow program, Ah-Nab-Awen Park, Grand Rapids, MI June 15-16, 1985 collected by Edward Gillis included as part of his Native American publication collection. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Three Fires Pow-wow Committee Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Indians of North America Michigan Michigan -- Grand Rapids Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3802f09968d65ee12ea7158ef620aa0d.pdf d9a5fe1393f196567606db2065b6afcf PDF Text Text HOMECOMING OF THE THREE FIRES POW WOW AH-NAB-AWEN PARK - JUNE 14-15, 1986 Grand Rapids, Michigan �&ALL PA RI< FLORAL 8 VALLEY AVE ., N. W . GRAND RAPIDS, Ml 49504 HOFFMAN'S CON VEN IENCE STORE 1034 Bridge, N.W. Grand Rapids, Michigan 49504 Phone 451-8307 Gift Baskets Gift Boxes Imported Beer and Wine Liquor TELEPHONE 459-3409 Lottery :Bo& & Ej,th.£~ ..Long{ufd WEST SIDE TRADING POST 913 Bridge, N.W. Phone 454-2303 *Dry Cleaning and Shirt Laundry PHOENIX PRINTING *Post Office Sub-station AND PUBLISHING CO. *Groceries, Beer, Wine and more. An Enterprise of Fine Quality Services: 35 South Division Avenu e Grand Rapids , Ml 49503 616-459-7373 -WELCOMEThe Three Fires Pow Wow Committee 1986 Wishes to welcome everyone to its eighth annual Pow Wow. This Pow Wow originated as a honoring of the original people of Michigan, the Ottawa, Chippewa, and the Potawatomi Nations. It is to these three Nations, the name Three Fires refers to. Our Pow Wow is titled HOMECOMING OF THE THREE FIRES. Many of our people return home for this weekend event. They travel from as far west as California, and as far south as Florida to meet with their friends and relatives. The members of our committee are proud to be able to host this HOMECOMING. The Pow Wow has become an annual event of the sharing of our culture, to both the Anishnawbe (Indian) and the non-Indian members of our community. We hope that you will gain a greater understanding and appreciation of our Native American culture through participation today. The event will feature Native American culture through music, dance, arts and crafts and food. As Anishnawbe, we are proud to use this opportunity to display our rich heritage and culture. We hope that the community will see that Indian people are not extinct, but maintain as part of today's society. It is along the banks of the Grand River, called by the Anishnawbe, Owashtanong, that in 1761, in the place where the rapids flow the fastest, that Chief Pontiac assembled members from the Nations of Michigan. We were later referred to as the Three Fires Confederacy. The existence of the Three Fires Confederacy assured territorial control and protection from other groups. It is along these banks of the Owashtanong that many Anishnawbe villages existed. Chief Na-Oua-Ke-Zik (Noonday) had his village located just north of Bridge St. Chief Me-Gis-0-Nee-Nee (Wampum-man) had his village located near Fulton St. It was here where Treaty Councils took place. It is along this river where generations of Native people were born, lived, and died. And it is here today, where we honor the people of the Three Fires, and welcome them to share a part of their culture, with the many cultures that will be present today. Treat your eyes to the movements and regalia of our dancers, and let your ears and heart listen to our heartbeat, the Drum, and allow yourself to become part of this grand celebration. Chi Megwetch Ron Yob Three Fires Pow Wow Committee Chairperson �-AGENDA - Saturday, June 14, 1986 2:00 P.M. Grand Entry Flag Song Invocation (Joe John) lntertribal Songs and Dance Veterans' Dance Tots Contest 5:00 P.M. Dinner Break 7:00 P.M. Grand Entry Flag Song Invocation lntertribals Four Dance Contests Specials Dusk Retiring of the Flag Sunday, June 15, 1986 2:00 P.M. Grand Entry Flag Song Invocation lntertribals Veterans' Dance Four Dance Contests Specials Awarding of Prizes Victory Dance Retiring of the Flag �t~ GRAND RAPIDS PUBLIC SCHOOLS Native American Education Program Gran<l Rapids, Michigan 49504 615 Turner N.W. Room 241 Phone (616) 456-4226 Indian Hills Trflding Com/)flny & lndifln Art Gflllery INDIAN HILLS RESERVATION PETOSKEY, MICH . 49n0 - HEAD PERSONNEL M.C. . .. . . ... ...... . ..... .. . . ... .. ..... John Bailey Head Dancers ....... . ...... ... .. ..... Mike Oashner Ojibwa Dorothy Goeman Ojibwa/Mohawk Host Drum .. ....... . ..... . ...... . . . .... . All Nations Areana Director . ..... . ............. .... .. Ike Peters Veteran Dancer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jerry Pigeon VICTOR S. KISHIGO INDIAN OWNED & OPERATED AUTHENTIC HANDMADE INDIAN ARTS AND CRAFTS (616) 347-3789 MIKE & /SABEL NAVARRO 653 Stocking N. W. Grand Rapids, Ml 49504 ~~ •CORN & FLOOR TORTILLAS •NACHO CHIPS •TAMALES MULDER'S FAMILY RESTAURANT Open for Breakfast, Lunch & Dinner 7 Days a Week Breakfast ALL DAY IJ!iJ!lli/~~ Banquet & Catering Available - 363-9071 1040 Leonard N.W. 3874 Plainfield N.E. 401-28th St. S.E. �THANK YOU! The Three Fires Pow Wow Committee wishes to thank the following donors for making this event possible. Chi Megwetch I TILLIE'S MARKET 1702 Monroe N.W. (2-blocks South of Ann Street) - Liquor - Cold Beer & Wine - Pop& Ice - Sandwiches - Complete Grocery OPEN 7 DAYS-A-WEEK 9 A.M. - 11 P.M. ] Amway Corporation Brace Twine & Supply Co. Brenners Do It Yourself The Burlap Bag City of Grand Rapids Ann and Robert Cooper Dept. of Natural Resources Murray N. Hess Paul Hoffman Lear Siegler, Inc. Great Lakes Mazda Michigan National Guard Phoenix Printing Rospatch Corporation Sebastian Foundation Steelcase, Inc. Wege Foundation �-THANKYOUWe wish to thank the following people for the countless number of hours they volunteered in helping to make this event a success. Chi Megwetch The Three Fires Pow Wow Committee $ 1c · --~ ~~,- - WH17Kf4:, . NEW OWNER - Tom Veneklase Johnny's Sport Shop, Inc. Anll1ble In E11enc• Of: MINNOW - LEECH - CRAWFISH CRICKET - SALMON EGG SHRIMP - NIGHT CRAWLER 736 Bridge St. N.W . Grand Rapids, Ml 49504 (616) 458·0922 OPEN EARLY 7 DAYS Complete Outfitter• for Big lake and Inland Flahlng Flahlng Llc1n1H · Live Bait . Complete Selection of Tackle Rod & Reel Repair • Wh 1zk Jig Heads• Wh1zk Fl oating Heads• Wht zk'n Hooks• Whizker Worm Weights ~ WHU~ ~ II~ e:. L ~~~~ ~~ ~''1')1:1·~1,1, _.,,, • WH~ . Evelyn Bailey Leroy Bailey Charlie Belty Evelyn Biggs Robert Biggs John Basin Alvin Cash Fred Chivis, Jr. Mary Church Lin DeYoung Pat DiPiazza Erika Doorn Roger Dressler Emily Daley Carol Dutmers Lori Duverneay Margaret Dunn Lynne Feaster Colleen Floyd Nebin Floyd Maury Francis Ross Francis Shirley Francis Simon Francis Betty Gibbs Cheri Gibbs Debra A. Gibbs Kathy Hart Barbra Hawke Helen Hillman Kerry Hillman David Hinman Bill Jewel Joe John Todd Johnson Pat Kosequat Heather Kritcher Robert Kritcher Tammy Leaureaux Carolee Lewis Michael Lewis Joanne Maldonado George Martin Sid Martin Robin Menefee Jodi Palmer Anthony Parcher Carrie Ann Parcher Gene Peters Ike Peters Ted Peters Barb Seifried Ed Seifried Becky Shalifoe Gary Shomin Janet Shomin George Snider Debra Snyder Jeanette St. Clair Liz St. Clair Percy St. Clair George Stevens, Jr. Mary Tavolacci Don Weiss Angie Yob Jennifer Roloff Yob Ron Yob �WESTSIDE BEER DISTRIBUTING Since 1933 530 Ball Ave., N.E. Grand Rapids, Ml 49503 (616) 459-1151 Bud-weiser. �WELCOME TO ANISHNAWBE VILLAGE ATTHE THREE FIRES FESTIVAL Here on the banks of Owashtanong (Grand River) dwelt until 150 years ago the Anishnawbe people, members of the Three Fires, a loose confederation of Chippewa, Ottawa, and Potawatomi. On these banks the Anishnawbe built their summer dwellings - wigwams - of saplings, cattail reeds, and bark. They did so in order to take advantage of the excellent supply of foodstuffs in the area, particularly the fish that abounded in the rapids. Late in the spring, after closing up operations at their maple sugar bush to the east, the people returned year after year to set up their summer village and to plant corn, beans, and squash. Here they rebuilt or mended canoes, food-drying racks, snares, nets, and so on. They prepared for cold weather by cutting and sewing skins for clothing, and by making baskets and storage containers for caching food. The nearby forests, meadows and swamps were harvested for nuts, berries, herbs, and plants for medicines. In the morning, across the wide peaceful valley came the sounds of black ash being felled and its timber being pounded; the resulting splints formed the basis for the production of basketry. Outside the wigwams, when daily tasks were done, the women gathered to chat as they worked on baskets or other handicrafts. Little children played as they do everywhere and from time immemorial - happily and carefree with toys made by doting grandfathers. Nearby in the shade babies were rocked gently in their blanket swings by adoring grandmothers. Midday found growing boys with their dads, proud to be old enough to learn men's skills that would someday make them full, productive members of the tribe. Girls joined their mothers in the activities that would one day too make their contributions of value equal to those of their male counterparts. Evening found activities special to the close of the day. Young people in love drifted off to talk and dream privately of their future life together. Newly expectant parents hoped and planned for the one-not-yet-born. With smaller children tucked into bedding, parents enjoyed games and conversation with friends. And when total darkness prevented other activity, they gathered around their fires to hear elders recount anew the oral history, folklore, and exploits of tribal heroes. Retold too were the legends of Gitchi-Manitou, the Great Spirit, and of his interactions with the Anishnawbe. Down through the centuries they developed a lively faith in his providence and protection. With the dawn came a feeling of awe and oneness with the vast realm of living things around them. A deep faith in the Great Spirit manifested itself in a love for Mother Earth and in a careful husbandry of her gifts. The Anishnawbe knew that life was good, peaceful, and downright possible only if everyone cooperated. No matter how skilled or talented one person - or one family - was, it was unthinkable to presume that one could survive alone. Our reconstructed village you see here this weekend during the Three Fires Annual Festival is an attempt - amateur though it may be - to pay tribute to our Anishnawbe ancestors who lived, loved, worked, and died long ago on the banks of Owashtanong. You will find striking differences to be sure; gone are the mighty birches that furnished bark roof coverings. We have had to substitute manmade materials instead. But that itself attests to the ability of Indians to adapt and change with the times. For, contrary to what many non-Indians think, Indians have changed and have adapted their life-style down through the ages, whenever circumstances necessitated change. Thanks to the Department of Natural Resources and other generous donors, the remainder of the materials used in construction are natural ones. With these we have attempted to revive here this weekend the skills and techniques used by native peoples of the Old Northwest Woodlands for hundreds of years. This project has been a labor of love, the contribution of many, many volunteers. Indian and non-Indian alike worked side by side in a mosquito-infested swamp to harvest the truck loads of cattail reeds needed. Another group struggled together to cut one hundred saplings 12 to 14 feet tall, strip them of foliage, and transport them to storage in water - where they would stay supple until needed. And finally, a third group of volunteers worked tirelessly the night before the festival to put up the entire full-scale village; no easy task using only twine - no nails, staples, or wire were allowed! The volunteers cannot be thanked enough. Without each one's generous gift of time and talent; without their cooperative effort, the Anishnawbe Village could not have returned. As you walk through the village, allow yourself the luxury of drifting back in time. Imagine that you are among the Anishnawbe of yesterday. They - and we welcome you! Shirley Francis Village Site Coordinator �~~~~,~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ~ � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Native American Publication Collection Subject The topic of the resource Native Americans Indians of North America Anthropology Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Michigan Description An account of the resource Selected digital surrogates of published and unpublished materials from the Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection dealing with different aspects of human culture and anthropology, with an emphasis on Native American people, events, organizations, and activities in Michigan. Includes newsletters, event programs, flyers, posters and other printed materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillis, Edward V. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American Publication Collection (RHC-14)</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Project (Kutsche Office of Local History) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1958-2000 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection, RHC-14</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14_three-fires-pow-wow_1986-06 Title A name given to the resource Homecoming of the Three Fires Pow-Wow, June 1986 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-06 Description An account of the resource Homecoming of the Three Fires Pow-Wow, Ah-Nab-Awen Park, Grand Rapids, MI June 14-15, 1986 collected by Edward Gillis included as part of his Native American publication collection. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Three Fires Pow-wow Committee Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Indians of North America Michigan Michigan -- Grand Rapids Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06283b58c662c2a88133ef40c80ae6e7.pdf d24f9b8658ee5e32fa59413a69627b59 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Historia belli Peloponnesiaci [folium 4] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_004Thucydides1483 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thucydides Description An account of the resource One leaf (last folium) of Historia belli Peloponnesiaci, Book Eight, by Thucydides. Translated by Laurentius Valla and edited by Bartholomaeus Parthenius. Printed in Treviso by Johannes Rubeus Vercellensis circa 1483. [GW M46964; ISTC it00359000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Treviso: Johannes Rubeus Vercellensis Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Thucydides Language A language of the resource it Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1483 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Valla, Laurentius (translator); Parthenius, Bartholomaeus (editor) Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5dedfe6526eafec20ec6022593535cad.pdf 04d80340b0bfe8f82ddc5047406262fc PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Hy Thurman Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 1/22/2012 Biography and Description Hy Thurman arrived in Chicago when he was seventeen years old from a small farming town in eastern Tennessee. He settled in Uptown. Most of his neighbors there were also southerners; many of them had come from textile and coal mining regions that were losing their jobs due to mechanization. For many workers from these “company towns,” losing one’s job also meant losing your home. In Uptown, housing was dilapidated because just like in Puerto Rican La Clark -- where southerners also had settled and lived next to, but segregated from, Puerto Ricans -- most of the housing was owned by absentee landlords. Converted hotel buildings were infested with roaches and rats, and were frequently unsafe in need of major repairs. Once urban renewal began, arson also became a problem as landlords would seek to collect the insurance on their properties and force their tenants out rather than make repairs. In the process, many poor residents lost their lives. There were few opportunities for children, as the city’s focus was on increasing the tax base and many in the official neighborhood associations sought to cleanse the areas of minorities and the poor, to raise their property values and profit margins. Mr. Thurman recalls his experiences growing up in Uptown over this time. He also describes co-founding the Young Patriots. In 1969, the Young Patriots became part of the original Rainbow Coalition, along with the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party. It more like an alliance, as all three groups had already been active within their own communities when they came to sit at the table. For example, Hy Thurman, �Jack “Junebug” Boykin, William “Preacherman” Fesperman, and many of the Young Patriots had already been involved with JOIN (Jobs or Income Now), a project run by Students for a Democratic Society, and the Goodfellows, JOIN’s de facto anti-police brutality committee, for several years which is what led them to form the Young Patriots. One of the Young Patriots’ main organizing efforts led to the Summerdale Scandal which exposed the then accepted criminal activities of eight policeman and put them in jail for burglaries, thefts, and extortions. This investigation also later led to the uncovering of a similar scandal at the 18th Police District, then located on Chicago Avenue, now closer to Old Town and Lincoln Park at 1160 North Larrabee Street. It was here that Commander Braasch, who daily picked up and harassed the Young Lords and their supporters on false charges, eventually went to jail for extortion of the local businesses in Old Town and in Lincoln Park. It was proven in court that he and an elite group of his officers would sell car and widow sticker labels while making a personal profit by offering special protection, “from the Young Lords and other gangs.” The Rainbow Coalition was symbolic in that it encouraged other groups to coalesce but put more focus on organizing the grassroots proletariat within their own their own communities and supporting each other. The participating groups also began to show solidarity by participating in each other’s actions, including holding many press conferences, speaking tours, neighborhood rallies, and demonstrations. Members of the Young Patriots participated in the over 1000 member March and Caravan to Mayor Richard J. Daley’s home for Young Lord Manuel Ramos, after he had been shot and killed by off duty policeman James Lamb. The Young Patriots and Panthers also participated in the Manuel Ramos March to the 18th District Chicago Avenue Police Station where gangs were used by the Gang Intelligence Unit to try to stop the March as it passed through the Cabrini Green Housing Projects and where the police set fire to a garbage can to try to instigate a riot in order to arrest the demonstrators. The Young Patriots and Black Panthers came to dozens of court hearings in support of the Cuatro Lords who were arrested for making a citizen’s arrest of Officer Lamb.The Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, Poor People’s Coalition, Rising up Angry, Black Panther Party, LADO, Young Patriots and several other neighborhood groups, also participated with the Young Lords led take-over or occupation of McCormick Theological Seminary. And at the Chicago Eight Trial, the Young Lords daily organized hundreds of Puerto Ricans and Lincoln Park residents to support the Chicago Panthers and Chairman Bobby Seale. Rising Up Angry and the Young Patriots were also represented. Young Lords would travel on a regular basis to Uptown and to the West and South Side Black Panther offices and vice versa. During the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign in 1975, since the 46th ward included major parts of Uptown, the Young Lords continued to work with members and supporters of the Young Patriots. Today, Hy Thurman has a B.A. in Cultural Anthropology, has conducted ethnology interviews with a prominent anthropologist, worked for VISTA and for the Uptown People’s Northeastern Illinois University Center, and has held benefits for community organizations via Bluegrass Inc. He is also a teacher who specializes in Appalachian history and migration. �Transcript HY THURMAN: We had an affiliation with the Young Lords as well as the Black Panthers, and we formed the original Rainbow Coalition, which is the models being used today for community organizing. The Young Patriots were mostly of Southern descent, various states, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Virginia, many other states down the Appalachians. We actually had members from Texas, and Oklahoma, and other states, but, mostly, they were from the southern states that lived in predominantly a Southern, white community in Uptown. It was a port of entry for them to come into the North [00:01:00] because most of the people didn’t have jobs down South, and they had to migrate to the North, and Uptown was one of the (break in audio) the efficiency apartments. There were many buildings there that were divided into efficiency apartments. The rent was very cheap, so that’s where most of the Southern white people came into other than Detroit, and Cincinnati, and those areas. JOSE JIMENEZ: What were some of the other leaders in the Young Patriots, and what was your symbol like, and your colors, and all that? HT: Well -- JJ: I know the Young Lords and Panthers had different color berets, black berets for the Panthers, and the Young Lords had purple berets, and -- HT: Yeah. For a lot of us, we had -- we started out as being somewhat of greasers. You know, a greaser? Out of a [00:02:00] organization called the Uptown Goodfellas, and, to identify us, a couple things. A leather jacket, for one. The 1 �other was a Confederate flag that we had that we would wear, and that symbolized, of course, people from the South, but it also -- we were trying to take that flag and give it a whole different definition of what you’re accustomed to it to be. We were giving it to the people in the community, but we were saying that it’s not white power, per se, but it’s a white power that respected all people. Okay? And we were trying to change that definition of what that flag stood for, and I think we did ’cause we were also using [00:03:00] phrases, “Power to the people.” We were using, you know, equality as a basis for that flag because we wanted to tear down what that flag had meant to people. Of course, it meant slavery to a lot of people, and we were able to tear that down to give it a whole different definition. We were saying, “Okay, be proud of who you are, but let’s don’t be proud of some of the things that this has represented, so let’s change it.” Now, we could have picked something else, but we wanted to pick something that people identified with, and that was the Confederate flag. So, we were able to use that. We were able to term that as meaning something different. So, we were a group of non-racist Southern white people, [00:04:00] trying to do something in our community, and the whole thing wasn’t about racism anyway. It was about trying to make some changes within our community, and that’s how we got into forming the -- to help to form the Rainbow Coalition with the Black Panthers and the Young Lords of Lincoln Park at that time because all these communities were going through the same political upheaval. They were going through repression by the police. They were going through urban renewal, 2 �poverty, unemployment. So, we were able to form a coalition with them so we could have unity. JJ: Okay. There was some (inaudible) were involved in -- what were --? (break in audio) HT: Yeah. [00:05:00] One, for instance, one program that we were interested in, we (break in audio) rehab the community, and the city of Chicago had a proposal that they would displace 90 percent of the Southern white people that lived in the community, which is an area roughly, I think, probably 10 blocks long or something like that, and they would literally put a college in that area, tear down the community, and displace these people, without any alternative programs, without placing them in any other community, without any other housing. So, we, along with some other groups we had joined, formed [00:06:00] what was called the Hank Williams Village. This was a community that would be the alternative to the college, which would also include education because it would include schools. It would include schools, healthcare, housing for the people. So, therefore, we wouldn’t have to move people out. People could stay where they were, but we could be able to strengthen the city of Chicago by strengthening the community. Well, that didn’t work out very well. When we went to our meetings to -- went to meetings that were provided by the city, for instance, the committees that the city had set up, they would allow us to talk, but then, it would be like, “No, thank you. This is what we’re gonna do.” [00:07:00] So, we were involved in that struggle for housing. We were -- JJ: Was there a vote in the city council or anything about --? 3 �HT: Yes. There was a vote. There was a vote for this particular college to be put into the uptown community. JJ: (inaudible). HT: Truman College is the name of it now. It was a City of Chicago college. There was a vote by the city committee, you know, that was controlling it, and it was 100 percent unanimous, to my understanding, that they would put the college in the area. So, they had disregarded any proposals that we had set up for them or any of our comments because those committees were controlled, basically, by the City of Chicago, by Mayor Richard J. Daley. And so, what they wanted to do [00:08:00] Uptown at one time was a Gold Coast Community. At one time, it was the Hollywood in filmmaking. There were numerous studios in the area, and any major film was probably made in Chicago back in the ’30s, ’40s, you might say, in those times. The community was a very wealthy community. I mean, you have the Aragon Ballroom, which anybody that was anybody that sang, very wellknown would perform at the Aragon Ballroom. The housing was just beautiful. It was beautifully architect. Frank Lloyd Wright has a house in there that’s been developed, that he developed in there. Couple of ’em, I believe. Is that the name? Frank Lloyd Wright? Yeah. Architect? JJ: Yeah. HT: Yeah. JJ: Yeah. HT: [00:09:00] Also, these -- it (break in audio) houses were beautiful, but the movie industry moved, and they moved to Hollywood. And then, there was an exodus 4 �of people moving to the suburbs. It left a lot of vacancies, a lot of buildings vacant, and they tried to rent those out for a while, couldn’t do it. The landlords, of course, were absentee landlords ’cause they were owned by people maybe in California, other parts of the -- or they went to the suburbs. So, there were very few homeowners there left. So, they split these buildings up into apartments, efficiency apartments. [00:10:00] People started coming in and renting them. Now, it wasn’t necessarily Southern people that were doing that. These were other people that were coming in. So, by the time that the Southern people came into the area, the buildings were already dilapidated. They could have contributed to it because they don’t own the building, of course. And then, of course, if you got, you know, absentee landlords, they don’t really care about the building. Buildings become dilapidated. There was lead-based paint, children were getting lead poisoning, stairwells that weren’t safe, and the whole landscape of the community deteriorated. Now, the city knew that, at one time, that that was a Gold Coast and still could be, so their idea was to come in with urban renewal, with HUD, Housing and Urban Development, and tear the buildings down, [00:11:00] build new buildings, put a college in the area. Therefore, they could attract wealthier people to come into the community, and that’s what they wanted to do. So, they did, and we lost the battle, of course, to the City of Chicago because they already knew what they wanted, and they were gonna get it. Richard Daley -- that’s what he wanted. That’s what he got. So, it displaced 90 percent of the Southern population right there. Now, they had a Southern migration that went from, you know, Chicago, to Detroit, to Cincinnati, 5 �back home. So, we were involved in some of those committees. We were trying to get placed on those committees and could not be placed on it, so we would go to the meetings and air our grievances, our plans, plans that had been [00:12:00] drawn up by a very professional architecture firm that was being backed by other businesses outside the community, but it just never -- they wouldn’t listen. They totally ignored us. JJ: Going back (inaudible) how the Young Patriots formed as a group. How did that start? HT: Well, the Young Patriots -- I’ll have to go all the way back to when they first stared coming into the community. The community has always been economically depressed, and, because of that, it was oppressed by the city. It was oppressed (break in audio) had no representation in housing. [00:13:00] Sometimes, it’s said, one time that, sometimes, we thought that the only ones that ate well were the cats that came out and ate the mice in the buildings because they were infested. There were no jobs. And the belief was that there were jobs in Chicago. When they got here, there were no jobs. A lot of them have to go to the day labor agencies, where they would get maybe one day a week work at minimum wage, but, then again, they would have to pay off the man that was in charge of the day labor agency to get a job, so they never made much money there either. Southern people are a proud people, keeps to themselves a lot, doesn’t like handouts, that they call handouts, but would have to go get welfare. A lot of times, [00:14:00] the father would have to leave, or at least say they left, so they could show that the mother and the family was 6 �abandoned so they could get some type of welfare. So, it was a cultural shock that was going on, and, because there wasn’t a lot of things to do, people were on the street a lot. You know, a lot of things were happening on the street, any time there’s -- especially in the summertime. So, there was a large police presence in the area. There was a group of young guys, got organized and led a march on the police station because of police brutality. The city had been known to take some of their problem police officers and put ’em in this community. JJ: Were these the [00:15:00] Young Patriots, or --? HT: These were called the Uptown Goodfellas. JJ: Goodfellas, okay. HT: And this group basically was a group of people that sat around and just played the guitar, sang. Wasn’t a lot to do. Some of ’em worked, but most didn’t. Couldn’t find jobs. Couldn’t get schooling because there was nothing for them, to offer them to get school. And, you know, you’re talking about people that are 16, 17 years old. I mean, you’re not talkin’ about real adults. You’re just talkin’ about kids that had a -- they could go in either direction. They could become a street gang, which a lot did. And out of that grew a lot of frustration, as in any poor community at that time. [00:16:00] Police presence was very strong. A lot of people on the street. People killed. I mean, there were several people that were killed by the police. None of ’em were really trying to fight the police, but some of ’em were just literally murdered by the police. So, there are a lot of frustration, lot of things going on. You got to understand too that, if people came up from the South and they had what was called black lung, a black lung disease that they 7 �have from working in the mines, and they were no longer useful to the mines, so they would fire them. Some of them were actually living on property and in shanties that belonged to the mine, [00:17:00] so, therefore, they’d have to vacate. So, there were no jobs. They were sick. What are they gonna do? Well, Cousin Joe lives in Chicago, so let’s just go to Chicago and see what we can do. So, that’s how they ended up, a lot of times, in Uptown. Brown lung was also something that people got out of the textiles, from breathing fabrics. So, no insurance. No job. Families -- you know, what are you gonna do? Then, you had areas that had mostly farming. You had a lot of economic problems, banks taking over the farms, which got rid of a lot of the farmers, but also got rid of the people who were working on the farms, so they had no other place to go. They knew about what happened in California, and the Dust Bowl, and Oklahoma, and all those areas, but [00:18:00] they really didn’t want to go there, so they went to Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, those areas. When they got to Chicago, there were no jobs. They couldn’t take care of their family, living in deplorable conditions. Alcoholism became a problem. People that didn’t drink start drinking a lot of times. Now, some did make it out. Some did. I’m not saying that everybody didn’t, but some did, but, for the majority of the people who didn’t have educations, didn’t have the contacts, it was pretty tough. So, for the young guys, all they saw was poverty, and all they saw was, you know, let’s go hustle on the street. Let’s go do somethin’. And some of us were [00:19:00] hustling on the street. I mean, we had to. We had to survive. Myself being 17 years old when I came here, couldn’t find a job. Didn’t have an education. What am I gonna do? 8 �I have no other place but my buddies on the street. Well, any time that there were three or more on the street, it can be considered a gang. Therefore, you could be taken in to jail. You can be, you know -- so you had to get off the street, but there’s no other place to go. So, there was a lot of frustration. There are a lot of confrontations with the police. So, essentially, what happened was there were -- the Students for a Democratic Society, for instance, came into the community, and they formed a organization called JOIN, Jobs or Income Now, and what they wanted to do was to reach some of the people. [00:20:00] What they wanted to do, they wanted to reach some of the people, to get them to start fighting for their rights to try to make some conditional changes within the community. At the same time, they were talking about the civil rights movement and how, in these other communities, and other parts of the country, and down South, that they’re fighting for justice and rights. You’re in a very unique community ’cause you’re in a Southern white community, you know, and majority of the oppression that Blacks were getting was in the South, and other -basically, culturally, the Southern white people are clannish people. They stick to their own. They don’t want to be bothered. So, because [00:21:00] of the -- I would say the education of racism within the South and what they’d been taught - what we had been taught, I have to say -- was the fact that we were a superior people to Blacks, or Hispanics, or American Indians, you know. But there were a few of us that were beginning to look at this and say, “Well, we don’t believe this is true,” because we started getting political ideology from some community organizers that came in from Students for a Democratic Society. 9 �JJ: Want some water, or --? HT: Yeah, let me get a drink. M1: (inaudible) on the table there. Let me get it. (break in audio) HT: That some of them had come out of the Uptown Goodfellas, which was a group that got together a few years before, and I’m talkin’ about maybe [00:22:00] sixty- I have to get the dates right, but I think it’s probably around ’65, ’66. Somewhere around in there. They actually organized a march onto the local police station. Now, this local police station, the Summerdale station in Uptown, was known for corruption. I mean, there was no secret about it. I know myself of police officers that would confiscate drugs and resell them. I know that -- police officers that would sell prostitution and I know that would sell stolen goods. At the same time, I’m not saying that every police officer there was bad, but, for the majority of them, they were, and they didn’t want to be controlled at all. So, if you get [00:23:00] a community, because of police brutality, to do a march on their police station, then there’s a problem. You’re gonna have a serious problem. And especially the fact that, later on, where they would let an alderman ride around in a police car, stopping people, you know you got a problem. So, some of us -- very few number -- decided that we really needed to try to do something in this community, and some of the group had come out of the Uptown Goodfellas, and they were political. They were becoming political, and I was becoming political at the same time with JOIN, community union, and other groups in the community. So, we formed a group to do some [00:24:00] 10 �organizing within the community and try to provide some services. Now, we got together initially because we were interested in a wide range of subjects, but what we could work on was urban renewal and the police issue. So, we formed a group and started calling ourselves the Young Patriot organization. We thought that’s our way of bein’ patriotic. If we’re gonna try to help our community, then we are patriots. If we’re gonna fight against oppression, we are patriots. So, that’s what we had started working on. We were a nonviolent group. I mean, we weren’t a militant group at all, although we had also participated in the Poor People’s Campaign in Washington. We’d been known to go down on military bases and handed out the Vietnam GI newspaper. We’d been known to [00:25:00] support other organizations and agencies, women’s rights, so we were becoming political at an early age. And so, what we did -- we heard about the Young Lords, Lincoln Park. We heard about the Black Panthers, of course. We knew about them, but our concept about the Young Lords was as a gang. Just a gang over there, a Puerto Rican gang that we didn’t want to fight against. You know, we didn’t want any fights. But then, we heard about the Young Lords becoming political, and we thought, wow. That’s pretty cool because that’s what we’re doin’ too. They had called us a gang, but we’re not a gang -- and started doing some organizing in their community and was doing some marches and that type of thing, and we’d already knew about the Black Panthers. [00:26:00] So, we were approached by some people to say, “Why don’t we get together for a meeting and see what happens with you guys?” You know, so, we did, and out of that meeting came the original Rainbow Coalition, and we had taken -- and 11 �because we were involved in other organizations within the Uptown community, mainly with the Uptown Area People’s Planning Coalition, JOIN, Native American Committee, Japanese American committees, a number of other organizations, we came up on the name of the Rainbow Coalition by taking a Nixon Agnew button and painting the color, a stripe, for each of the [00:27:00] peoples represented in the community, and that’s how we came up with what was called the Rainbow Coalition, and that was the beginning. Jesse Jackson didn’t create it. He used it. That’s all right. He can use it, you know, but that’s where it came from, and, from there, the Coalition started working together -- it’s said that and documented that, three days after we became the Coalition, the Rainbow Coalition, the FBI started putting us under surveillance, considering us to be dangerous. If you’re trying to do something for your community, why would it be dangerous? We weren’t militant. We were never proven to be militant. Okay? And we were never really proven to be a threat, but, somehow, we were determined by J. Edgar Hoover himself that this coalition was dangerous and that we were dangerous. So, [00:28:00] we started working more with the Coalition and were able to get resources from that to set up a free health clinic, offering people, those black lung people, those kids that were getting lead poisoning, those people who were chronically sick or people that just needed physicals for jobs -- you know, because they couldn’t afford a physical, they couldn’t get a job. So, people needed medication. There were doctors coming in from various hospitals, and colleges, and universities, and they were willing to give their services to help people. They were professional doctors. They weren’t just 12 �some hack. They were people who already were established in their communities, already established in hospitals. [00:29:00] Surgeons. There were social workers that were willing to work with people to get through this red tape every time they went somewhere. There were lab technicians, you know, pharmacists. There were people who really did have a concern about what was going on in this community but never, ever had a way of taking care of it, of offering their services. (break in audio) JJ: You can just go right into that, after -- you know, describe (inaudible). HT: Okay. M1: Okay? HT: Yeah, I’m ready now. M1: I’m ready. HT: But, no matter where we went with the program, we always had problems. We always had outside problems, and it was either code violation, or somebody putting pressures on the director of a facility, or something like that. We’d have to continuously move. Now, what was happening because of that -- now, we also had [00:30:00] people going to the other organizations and agencies and working. Okay? One of ’em, which was very successful, wasn’t controlled by the Patriots, but it certainly had the Patriots’ representation, and, because of that, the Patriots was, I think, one of the reasons they were brought into the community, was an educational program from Northeastern Illinois University. That’s how I got my college degree. Now, you understand that, when I came to Chicago, I 13 �was reading at a third grade level as a ninth grade dropout. Okay? But, because of that program and because I wanted to go get an education and get other people involved, I managed to get a degree in cultural anthropology with honors. It wasn’t given to me. I had to really work for it. But we also brought other people in there that they could get an education off the street. Same people. Just like me [00:31:00] but rainbow color, people from every nationality, every color represented. Some were nurses. Actually, one’s a medical doctor. Some are nurses. Some are social workers. One of ’em was actually in charge of, I believe, the placement for Northeastern. So, you know, other people went off and became firemen. Some people -- but it gave them an opportunity to make a living, but then, therefore, they are involved in other organizations and other place where they can offer their services, and that’s how it worked. It just spread out from there, but, because we were successful, the city -- what they should have been doing with the war on poverty money that was coming in at that time that was started by the Kennedy and Johnson administration to send a lot of money into the cities and other parts of the country just to help people get [00:32:00] an education, to help people find jobs and to give people jobs -- we didn’t know where the majority of the money was going. It certainly wasn’t going to the community. They hired people from the community, but the people literally didn’t do very much until election time, and then they were supposed to go out and get votes. The free health clinic became a black eye for the city because, when the press started talking about, “Why doesn’t the city offer these types of services? You got communities offering them.” And we started -- well, the 14 �harassment started before that. It started, like, three days after we made the Coalition possible with the Young Lords and the Black [00:33:00] Panthers. We were all involved in that. We started getting harassed. Our apartments would be raided. We’d get on the street. We would be stopped, harassed. Just almost everywhere we went, we’d be harassed. The alderman was riding around with the police, which showed that, I mean, had Daley’s stamp of approval to do whatever you wanted to do. There were informants we know of that were sent inside the organization to help destroy the organization. There were people sent out in the community to say that we were KKK in various communities -- with the Black Panthers, for instance. They had rumors going around that we were involved with the KKK. All kinds of things going on. All kinds of harassment. [00:34:00] Beatings from -- with? some of our people. So, the City of Chicago wanted to try to get rid of us. They wanted to try to get rid of our programs, so, therefore, they would, every chance they got, you know, to make us look like the bad guy, the dangerous coalition. We were working with the Black Panthers. Black Panthers working with us. Young Lords working with us. Us working with the Young Lords. So, it was like they were trying to play everybody against each other. This was happening in all the communities, but it turned out to be a very powerful coalition. It turned out to be a coalition that the -- we had no way [00:35:00] of knowing. You know, the Young Lords had no way of knowing, and the Panthers had no way of knowing just how powerful it would be because it was considered to be probably one of the most dangerous coalitions in the country. Why? We don’t know why. We were out working in the community. 15 �But it was considered to be that by J. Edgar Hoover, and it was considered to be that by Mayor Richard J. Daley. It was kind of making ’em look bad. That what was happen-(break in audio) JJ: Coalition. What was the philosophy? I mean, were the Panthers in Charge of the Young Lords and the Young Patriots, or -- how did that work, or --? HY: No. It was equality. It was a coalition built on mutual respect for each other’s community and each other’s people. Not one [00:36:00] group would have dominance over the other group. People were saying that, you know, the Black Panthers were gonna control this and that, but no. The Black Panthers never tried to control us. The Young Lords never tried to control us. Both were much bigger than us in our groups, but no, it was -- we got nothing but respect, and, in a lot of times, honor from the Black Panthers and from the Young Lords, and we were considered to be brothers, brothers and sisters, at that point. But, you know, the powers that be saw it differently. They didn’t want that to happen ’cause it was pretty dangerous for them. JJ: (inaudible). I’ve heard that mentioned. Was that part of the Coalition, or --? HT: Yes. Self determination, self dignity, respect. Yeah. [00:37:00] We wanted all that because we wanted people to gain and regain their self-respect that had been taken from them, that they had been treated, in a strange land that they were in, like they were different, they were nothing. Excuse me. (coughs) But, no, self-determination was something that was very important to us -- entire Coalition because I think that was one of the biggest ingredients. Self- 16 �determination for your own community, not to be controlled by outside powers to be, and, even though the city government thought that it was a part of the community, it was only a little part of the community. It wasn’t the community itself, and the [00:38:00] community was the grassroots people that was in the community, that lived there, that went through their everyday, [and day, and day?], not expecting anything, but just expecting to live and make a living, you know, that they could go to church. They could go shopping. That they could put their kids in schools without having problems with it, but it seemed like, everywhere you went, there was some kind of harassment or problem in those days. I know it’s hard for people to believe, but it’s absolutely true. You couldn’t go anywhere without having a problem, and those problems were not caused by people in the community. They were caused by people outside of the community. They were caused by, basically, the city administration. They wanted to control every part of your life at that point. Somehow, you’re being controlled, every part of your life, that you didn’t have a self-worth, that they were the ones that knew how to make the decisions [00:39:00] for you. And, of course, with the city administration, it all has to do with votes. And, let’s face it. If the city had put in programs and helped people, they would have got all the votes, but where was that money going? It had to be going somewhere else, and that was our question. Where is it going? You know, so, the only time you saw your precinct captain was voting time, and that’s when he came around. You didn’t see him at meetings. You didn’t see him trying to work for decent housing, or for healthcare, or anything like that. You only saw him around during voting 17 �time, but you saw heavy police presence around all the time, and the Rainbow Coalition was exactly that. It was, you know, the American Indians, the Hispanics, the Blacks, [00:40:00] the Southern whites, the Japanese Americans. Everybody. Everybody was the same, and I know a lot of people like to say that, well, the Black Panthers were so militant. Well, they were in certain areas, but yet, they started strongly believing in equality, that, no matter what color you is, you are, but, if you’re going through poverty, then you’re pretty much the same. Poverty has no respect for anybody. It’s gonna treat everybody the same. So, that Coalition actually formed the ideology of -- we can make a change with our community, but we cannot make a change when our community -- when we’re divided. We can only do it by working together and cooperating, and, you [00:41:00] know, you see that today. Even see it in political campaigns. They talk about grassroots, coalitions, everybody being involved. Back in those days, it was just the old, white men up there. They didn’t care. They were just controlling everything, but they can’t do that anymore. The only way you’re gonna make a change is down in your community, I think, and it comes from there. JJ: So, okay. (break in audio) And it led to a lot of different groups split between the Panthers, split between the Young Lords. HT: Mm-hmm. JJ: I understand there was a split within the Young Patriots. Can you describe how that came about, that process? HT: Well, that came about by -- we had -- 18 �JJ: Split. HT: -- couple of members, yeah, that wanted the organization to go national, and we were at a [00:42:00] point where we didn’t -- we being some of the leaders within the Young Patriots -- did not want that to happen. Now, the Young Patriots were formed, actually, by three people. That was Jack “Junebug” Boykin, Bobby Joe McGinnis, and myself. We were the three people that formed it because we had a way of going out. I mean, we can actually go out in the street and talk to people, and we were becoming political because of, you know, SDS, and JOIN, and other -- just life, basically. Made sense. There were some other people that came into the organization that had not been through that, had not gone through what we and others in the group had gone through in the community, but had a good ideology politically, wanted to be a little bit more radical, wanted [00:43:00] to be a little bit more militant. We were not ready for that. The community wasn’t ready for it. They knew the community wasn’t ready for that, and the community wouldn’t have done it, I don’t believe. So, they split off and formed what was called the Patriot Party, and we told -- literally, we don’t really want much to do with it. We want to organize here. We really want to organize here, get it together. This is for people that- then, let’s do something. And so, they took it to other parts of the country -- New York, Oakland, some other areas, I think, if I’m right -- and did health clinics, that kind of stuff, but, also, I understand there was an offshoot of that [00:44:00] one. I’m not sure, but they became more militant, and they ended up with a lot of prob—(break in audio) it came down on us real hard. So, that was a part of the split right there, and, you know, the -- you know 19 �your stuff. The Young Patriot Party didn’t last very long. We’re considered to be very short-lived, but it was our concept that’s been carried on now, and I think it’s being carried on in, you know, the Coalition. Concept has been carried on. So, we were just a part of that. We were only a part of the Coalition, and the Patriot Party had all kinds of problems. There were people -- weapons as I know of. I do believe that there were probably drugs planted on them. I do believe that [00:45:00] the government itself had a lot to -- I don’t think everything that they were accused of actually happened. Okay? But I do know that they were a little bit more militant than we were, and we were not ready for it. We just did not want that to happen. JJ: (inaudible). M1: Yeah, we are. JJ: Okay. Okay, so, I mean, was it just that they were more militant? I mean, did they have connections in the community like you did, or what happened when they became more militant? HT: I don’t think they had the connection to the community like we did, and to the grassroots coming up -- JJ: (inaudible). HT: Right, because we came up through the community, basically. We knew the community. We were a part of the community. We were poor like the people in the community we were trying to work with. We were the [00:46:00] uneducated that we were trying to work with, and we were actually -- when I’m saying uneducated, I’m saying academically. There’re some very intelligent people that 20 �don’t have the academics, very, very -- but what I’m saying is some of the people that were involved in the Patriot Party, you know, had their degrees and really had other places to go. We didn’t have any other place to go, for instance. These guys could go anywhere. They had other places to go. We didn’t really have anywhere to go. We had to stay where we were. In other words, we had to take a stand where we were. We didn’t have the resources to go anywhere else. So, it was sort of like the students that came into the area. They had places to go. They could go back. They could go home. They could go here. [00:47:00] Some of ’em lived in the suburbs and could always go back, but we couldn’t go anywhere. We had to stay exactly where we’re at. JJ: Was there any (inaudible) had a big effect? I know some of us went to the (inaudible) we went over there for the (inaudible) -- HT: Mm-hmm. JJ: -- there. Were you guys at the (inaudible)? [I’m not sure?] -- HT: I don’t remember. I think so, but I don’t remember. JJ: How did it affect the Patriots? HT: Oh, yeah. It affected us in a lot of different ways. Course, first of all, we’re part of the Coalition, and we can really see what’s going on, and there was never a doubt in our mind that he wasn’t (inaudible). We knew that. We knew that that was a whole setup from the beginning. It’s been proven. But we knew [00:48:00] that we had to start being a little bit more careful about how we were organizing or, you know, being public, actually, because, around that time, we started getting a lot of heat also, but it affected us because, boy, it was a devastating 21 �thing that happened. We knew that it was just a planned assassination, basically, is what we knew. I think it’s hard for people to believe, people that weren’t there. People even today are like, “How can this happen?” Well, it certainly did happen, and it was -- even today, when I walk through Uptown, I have to look behind me. You know, [00:49:00] I don’t know what’s there. I’m like-- you know? I can always tell when there’s someone around me. So, I don’t think it’s anything that I’m ever gonna lose. Some of the other Patriots probably never lost that either, that they’re constantly looking around. But I’d have to take pride in what happened with the Coalition. I really do. I think it’s something that I believe, that I didn’t know, okay? But I always believed it, ’til recently, that it started changing the whole face of organizing, as a way of organizing. If we can help one person, that’s worth it. JJ: What about (break in audio) you’ve come back. I mean, when you came back -- HT: Mm-hmm. JJ: -- when you look at the way Uptown is today, I mean, what sort of changes and how -- your feeling towards that? HT: [00:50:00] Well, I think, for a while there, you know, the city did exactly what it wanted to do. It got the college in it, tore down buildings, put up new buildings, rehabbed other buildings, took some of the buildings, turned them into lofts, flats, you know. So, it changed the architecture of it. It changed the landscaping of it, and it started promoting it to get wealthier people in the community, and it did. That was the place to live for a while, Uptown. Well, now, it looks like there’s boarded-up buildings there, and other buildings are getting very dilapidated, so I 22 �think it’s going [00:51:00] back to way it was before, so they may have to do it all over again. I don’t know, but the way I feel about it was it -- I think they should have went along with our program. I think that our program would have made the city much stronger. You could have said that it was a very racially mixed city they’d be proud of, but it didn’t. So, now, it seems like they’ve replaced one group of people with another group of people, and that people have gone somewhere else, that being the yuppies, I guess, as they call ’em, whoever -you know, the young, white, middle-class, upper middle-class people, lived there for a while, and, now, they’ve moved out. So, they’re having problems getting people in there now, and I don’t necessarily like what they did, course, but I think [00:52:00] that, if they’d gone with our program, they would have had a much stronger community. JJ: Are a lot of the Southern people still there, or --? HT: No. There’s not a lot of Southern people there at all. Course, most of the people at that time are probably -- they’ve probably passed away by now. It’s been 40 years or so. But there’s not a large population of Southern people there. There is a noticeable Black population there, and there is a gang problem there again. So, it’s sort of like what they did was temporary. It didn’t become part of the Gold Coast like they wanted. It didn’t get those businesses. It didn’t get those people coming in, and, if you drive through there, you’ll see some very modern, big buildings. Hospitals are -- it’s closed. I mean, they’re vacant. The buildings are vacant. [00:53:00] What are they gonna do now? You know, split that up into efficiency apartments and start all over again? Very well could, but -- I guess the 23 �only way to keep history from repeating itself is don’t allow it to repeat itself, you know? So, I don’t know what they’re gonna do, but, if they would listen to some of us, we can tell ’em what to do. Something that would work. JJ: Okay. END OF AUDIO FILE 24 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cacff1bbc74fec3439c2e56374a98339.mp4 722ff5d48ae1108be32f9ab2fc2abdc0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Hy Thurman vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Campo a la ciudad migración--Illinois--Chicago Pobreza--Illinois--Chicago Young Patriots Organización Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Thurman_Hy Title A name given to the resource Hy Thurman video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thurman, Hy Description An account of the resource Hy Thurman arrived in Chicago when he was seventeen years old from a small farming town in eastern Tennessee. Mr. Thurman co-founded the Young Patriots. In 1969, the Young Patriots became part of the original Rainbow Coalition, along with the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party. Hy Thurman, Jack “Junebug” Boykin, William “Preacherman” Fesperman, and many of the Young Patriots had been involved with JOIN (Jobs or Income Now), a project run by Students for a Democratic Society, and the Goodfellows, JOIN’s de facto anti-police brutality committee, for several years which is what led them to form the Young Patriots. One of the Young Patriots’ main organizing efforts led to the Summerdale Scandal which exposed the then accepted criminal activities of eight policeman and put them in jail for burglaries, thefts, and extortions. Today, Hy Thurman has a B.A. in Cultural Anthropology, has conducted ethnology interviews with a prominent anthropologist, worked for VISTA and for the Uptown People’s Northeastern Illinois University Center, and has held benefits for community organizations via Bluegrass Inc. He is also a teacher who specializes in Appalachian history and migration. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Rural-urban migration--Illinois--Chicago Poverty--Illinois--Chicago Young Patriots Organization Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/433c3b785da4af03948ce4c4c4d9f0b2.mp4 6b3d29a0666c6a21090beef0446ab4af https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4f931bc577a8b47e3555819913bb513e.pdf fff8d7e8dcc57376bdf1be87f0ac320e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project James Tibbe World War II 53 minutes 58 seconds (00:00:04) Early Life -Born in Moddersville, Michigan in 1924 -His father was a farmer and a part time carpenter -He built six houses and part of a church in his lifetime -His mother died the day of, or the day after, he was born -He lived in Moddersville until he was three, or four -His father moved to the Holland-Zeeland area and then James moved there when he was five -When he was ten they moved to Falmouth, Michigan -He had a number of half siblings -His father remarried several times -His second wife had died when she was young -He had two older brothers and two sisters -Both sisters died when they were young -He spent his youth and adolescence in Falmouth -He attended school through the ninth grade (00:03:14) Civilian Conservation Corps -After the ninth grade he joined the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) -In the CCC he was paid $30 each month and given room and board -The purpose was to plant trees, plant grass, or do basic construction projects -He was sent down to Camp Dodge Bloomer near Pontiac, Michigan -From there he was sent to Grand Haven to a CCC camp near there -The job there was to plant grass to stop erosion -Sand from the beach was starting to blow into the town and cause damage -He stayed with the CCC for about twelve, or fourteen, months (00:05:22) Start of the War and Enlisting -When the war began the CCC camps were shut down and he was discharged from it -He entered the service on August 19, 1942 -He chose to enlist rather than get drafted -He felt the need to join -He also wanted more of a choice in determining his direction in the military -The branch that he enlisted in was the Army Air Corps -He was sent to Kalamazoo to enlist and then to Fort Custer, Michigan for processing -At Fort Custer he received his uniform, vaccinations, and necessary medical exams (00:07:24) Training -He was sent to Shepherd Field, Texas for basic training -During basic training he was always kept busy -Did a lot of physical training, marching, and learning how to take commands -He adjusted well to Army life -Felt similar to the CCC at least in terms of the regimen and discipline �-Training lasted until late November 1942 -From Shepherd Field he was sent to Buckley Field, Colorado for Aircraft Armament School -In that school he was taught how to mount the .30 and .50 caliber machine gun on aircraft (00:10:10) Stationed at Wheeler Field -Near the end of the war he was stationed at Wheeler Field in Hawaii -His duty at Wheeler Field was to mount machine guns to bombers coming from the West Coast -They travelled to Hawaii without guns because it required less fuel -He served at Wheeler Field with six of the men that had been at Buckley Field -They were able to mount guns on five or six planes each day (00:12:23) Choosing the Army Air Corps and Downtime during Training -He had been fascinated with flying which is why he chose to go into the Army Air Corps -Prior to going to Aircraft Armament School he hadn’t had any experience with machinery -While he was at Buckley Field he was allowed to go off base to Denver on leave -The men would take a bus to the last trolley station and take the trolley into the city -There was sightseeing to do in and around Denver -He saw the Buffalo Bill grave near Denver -There were also USO Shows to see and Red Cross facilities to go to in Denver (00:14:40) Voyage to Hawaii -He was sent to Hawaii aboard the SS Lurline, a repurposed cruise ship -They sailed without an escort because they sailed fast enough to avoid submarines -Also able to change their course rapidly if needed -They would sail at 28 knots (~32mph) during the day and 32 knots (~36mph) at night -The ship had been stripped down to make it into a troop ship -This meant that he slept in a hammock and not in a cabin -The first night at sea was cold, but the weather was good the rest of the voyage -Only some men got seasick during the voyage to Hawaii -He didn’t though -It took four days to get to Hawaii (00:17:00) Stationed at Hickam Field -When he first arrived at Hawaii in 1943 he was stationed at Hickam Field -Situated in the Pearl Harbor area -When he was at Hickam Field he would load ammunition for the machine guns onto bombers (00:19:13) Stationed at Fiji -From Hickam Field he was sent to the island of Fiji -He stayed at Fiji for twelve (or fourteen) months -He flew to Fiji on a C-47 transport plane -They made three stops on the way to Fiji -First at Canton Island south of Hawaii -Then west to Christmas Island -Then to American Samoa and then finally to Fiji -He had to live in a tent for a while until pre-fabricated barracks were set up for them -During one hurricane the barracks were destroyed so they had to rebuild them -During the hurricane they stayed in a bunker designed to store aircraft during air raids -The storm lasted thirty six hours -When planes stopped at Fiji they would have to put wooden boards over the air intake vents -This was to stop birds from building nests in the air intake vents �-Otherwise the nests would clog the carburetors -His job was also to unload bombers and transport aircraft that landed at Fiji (00:24:10) Returning to Hawaii Pt. 1 -After being at Fiji he was sent back to Hickam Field -While he was at Hickam he saw wounded men unloaded from transport aircraft -They were unloaded with a forklift that had been turned into an elevator of sorts -Most of the men that were wounded had suffered debilitating injuries from the fighting (00:25:57) Living Conditions on Fiji -When on Fiji he also worked with Australians that were stationed there as well -They were good men, and good men to work with -Only resented them for the fact that they brought mutton to the base -He knew one Greek man who worked in the mess hall that was best cook they had -He had originally been on the flight line, but had suffered hearing damage -Before the day began he would go out and find pineapple and eggplant to add to meals -Electricity wasn’t available on the base except for extremely necessary things -There was only one generator on the base -However, at night they would hook a movie projector up to it and show movies -If the weather permitted USO Shows would be performed -He remembers seeing the Bob Hope Show (00:30:03) Returning to Hawaii Pt. 2 and Wheeler Field -He didn’t enjoy being at Hickam Field because of the military formality there -Fiji had been a more relaxed environment -From Hickam Field he was sent to Wheeler Field -He remembers there was a policy called a “recognition pass” for incoming aircraft -They had to circle the airfield to verify that they were friendly -If they didn’t check out they would be shot down -He remembers one B-25 bomber having to skip the recognition pass and land -It was because they were so low on fuel that they had to do that -Their engines lost power as they landed, which meant they coasted in -During his second time in Hawaii President Roosevelt visited to meet with General MacArthur -He got to seem them drive by in a jeep -Soldiers lined the road they were on to show troop strength as well as be a human shield -Wheeler Field was a far better assignment than Hickam Field -They were up in the mountains away from the formality that was present in Honolulu -They worked for six days each week and then had Thursdays off (00:33:02) Downtime in Hawaii -On his days off he would travel down to Honolulu -While he was in Hawaii he got a chance to see Waikiki Beach before it was developed -He got a chance to visit Pearl Harbor during each time he was stationed in Hawaii -The first time he saw it there were still prevalent signs of the attack in 1941 -Oil slicks, damaged ships and buildings -The second time he was there it had been cleaned up, but there was still damage (00:34:50) Awareness of the Progress of the War -When traveling in aircraft there was a radio onboard that wasn’t used for communication -He remembers traveling from one island to another and hearing about D-Day �(00:35:40) End of the War and End of Service -Before the war ended he was already stateside and was at Hamilton Field, California -He was essentially just on the base, not doing much -From Hamilton he was sent to Fairfield-Suisun Army Air Base (now Travis Air Force Base) -Being stationed there consisted of further sitting around -He was in Union Station in Chicago when the war ended -He was returning home from being on leave -He remembers hearing President Truman announce on the radio that the war was over -He went to a bar and got a few bottles to take with him for the train ride back to base -It was a four day train ride back to Fairfield-Suisun -Once he got back to Fairfield-Suisun he was sent to Lowry Field, Colorado -He was discharged there in early December 1945 (00:39:18) Military Formality and Process -When he was at Fiji there was a colonel that had gone to West Point -He was acting as the commanding officer -This colonel ordered a soldier to pick up a piece of paper he saw on the ground -Soldier’s reply: “You saw it first, you pick it up” -On Fiji there was also an engineer officer who oversaw maintenance of planes and the runway -There was always a lot of rain on Fiji which would wash out the gravel runway -Rather than just use a dump truck to haul gravel he decided that the men should be used -They would gather gravel with shovels and fill in the runway by hand -Fiji and Wheeler Field were more relaxed than Hickam Field was -This was due to the fact that there were less high ranking military personnel -The food was also much better at Wheeler Field (00:42:16) Interactions with Civilians -When he was at Fiji he remembers the islanders putting on a war dance for them -When he was in Hawaii he got to see an authentic hula show -The Fiji islanders would do laundry for the Americans, provided that they were paid -The English brought in Indians to do work for them -This was because the islanders refused to work for the English -The Indians would make jewelry and sell it to the servicemen on the island -He bought a couple trinkets that he later gave to his wife (00:44:25) Life after the War -When he got out of the Army he joined the 52-20 Club in Michigan -Given $20 each week for fifty two weeks for having been in the military -In May 1946 he moved down to Grand Rapids, Michigan to look for work -He has lived in Grand Rapids ever since -His first job was with OAK & Strong Construction doing general labor for them -He went to diesel school in Chicago on the GI Bill -He went on to get a job with Michigan Tractor and stayed with them for thirty six years (00:46:04) Veteran Group Involvement and Being a WWII Veteran -He joined the American Legion -He has been a member for sixty four years -He has visited the World War Two Memorial in Washington D.C. -Feels that it is a good memorial -Feels that it had to be put up considering the sacrifice and the gravity of World War Two �-At the memorial people came up to him and asked him questions and to shake his hand -Basically to show their thanks for his serving (00:49:50) Reflections on Service -He can’t be sure of the impact that his service had on him -He feels that it probably helped to make him more mature though -He feels that everyone capable of service should attempt to do something for the country -It helped him become independent, develop people skills, and become a more self-reliant person (00:50:55) Rags the Dog -On Fiji there was the 70th Bombardment Squadron and it had a dog named “Rags” -He was named this because of being hairy and occasionally used a hand rag by the men -He would rotate between the barracks and sleep in a different one each night -He would also occasionally stow away on bombers when they flew to different islands -He would always come back to Fiji though � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_TibbeJ0829V Title A name given to the resource Tibbe, James (Interview outline and video), 2010 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-18 Description An account of the resource James Tibbe is a World War Two veteran who was born in Moddersville, Michigan in 1924. After completing the ninth grade he left school and joined the Civilian Conservation Corps and worked around Michigan doing public works projects. On August 19, 1942 he enlisted in the Army Air Corps and received training at Shepherd Field, Texas and at Buckley Field, Colorado to become an armorer for bombers. He was stationed at Wheeler Field, Hawaii at Fiji and at Hickam Field, Hawaii over the course of the war. Just before the end of the war he was sent back to the continental United States where he served at Hamilton Field, California, Fairfield-Suisun Army Air Base, and Lowry Field, Colorado. He was discharged in December 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tibbe, James Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/13caac7d44b2333995dacfdda20cbf15.mp4 ad43fb253f2474b3bd2edbeeb65534b6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/837868841ef16729ecbdcdc00cd270aa.pdf 2d4d114f8c2eef8dfb9b09bcdbfbc82d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of Interviewee: John Tibbe Name of War: World War II Length of Interview: (00:55:52) (00:10) Background Information • John was born in Grant, Michigan on March 10, 1921 • His father was a farmer and able to keep his farm during the Depression • John went to school through 8th grade and then began helping his family with the farm • He had been working on the farm when he heard about Pearl Harbor being attacked on his neighbor’s radio • John was drafted into the Army in the fall of 1942 (5:30) Training • John was sent to Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan for induction and then to Camp Shelby, Mississippi for basic training • They stayed in tents and slept in cots, but overall John did well during training and got along with the drill sergeants • He trained with men from all over the country • Every day they started running in the morning; they had started at 5 miles per day and eventually made it to 38 miles per day • They went through weapons training with rifles, automatics, BARs, and machine guns • He was able to go to a USO show in New Orleans for Thanksgiving break • John was trained to be an anti-tank gunner when he went through advanced training at Camp Pickett in Virginia (17:35) Leaving the US • John was sent from Norfolk, Virginia through the Panama Canal into the Pacific on a ship from the Netherlands • Their were minorities from Dutch colonies on the ship and John felt they were all treated very badly, like slaves • They had two meals a day, were lucky enough to have nice weather, but had a long trip because of the zigzag course they had to take �(26:15) New Guinea • The area was very muddy, hot, rainy, an filled with lots of trees and kangaroos • John stayed at the 32nd Division’s base where he continued training and was assigned to a different regiment • There were many attacks by Japanese in pillboxes • The Americans had to gather up casualties and bury them • The jungle area was filled with bugs, turtles, snakes, crocodiles, and huge pythons • They all had to take medicine to prevent malaria, but John still got jungle rot • He only ran into a few Japanese soldiers while working in New Guinea (35:40) Morotai Invasion • They left New Guinea and landed on the island of Morotai • The camp was near an air strip and many civilians were out every day washing their clothes • They were told that the island was secure and that the fighting had ended before they arrived, but that was not the case • Many Japanese continued to come near their base to surrender and some stayed in the jungle • There were many Japanese POWs and the Americans felt it was wrong that they had to feed them so well • John did not see all the POWs as bad people, but as men that got pulled into the war, just like the Americans (50:10) Discharged • After being discharged John went back to Michigan and continued working on his family’s farm • He eventually got a job on another farm working a tractor, and then later began working for the Spartan Foundry • John later married and had 7 children � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TibbeJ Title A name given to the resource Tibbe, John (Interview outline and video), 2008 Description An account of the resource John Tibbe was born in Grant, Michigan on March 10, 1921. He went to school through the 8th grade and then began working on his family's farm until he was drafted into the Army in the fall of 1942. John went through basic training at Camp Shelby in Mississippi and then later went through Advanced Infantry Training at Camp Pickett in Virginia where he trained to be an anti-tank gunner. After training John was stationed in New Guinea and also the island of Morotai. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tibbe, John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-12-04 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f26e402e57c0581840c18e7d89ee6f9.mp4 8b1f8b49e7e47ab792d000ac2e25b74b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3632dcfeb4ca65ba3da499084c91c71f.pdf f95675eaf28762b64c2d94401125104b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Interviewee: Richard Tibbe Length of Interview: 00:37:30 Background:  Richard was born in Grand Rapids, November 21st, 1945.  His father served in the Army in WWII when he was born and would return a year and a half after he was born. His mother lived at the north end of Grand Rapids with her parents. His father would work on a farm, in Grant, after he returned.  Richard went to MSU for one year. After that, he ran out of money, so he went to look for a job.  He found a job at GM and worked there for a while.  When it came time, he knew that he would either be drafted or he would have to enlist. He chose to enlist so he could choose where he wanted to go and hopefully get some college out of it.  He enlisted March of 1966. Training: (2:30)          He did not know much about the Army or what was going on in Vietnam. He was too young to care. After he signed up, he was sent to basic training in Fort Knox, Kentucky. He then went on to engineering training in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. His basic training lasted 12 weeks. It consisted mostly of marching, exercise, and lots of discipline. He had mostly draftees in his company. He had no trouble adjusting to military life. He thought he would, but he surprisingly did not. He found out quickly that if you do what your superiors say, they treat you well. But if you give them a hard time, they will give you one too. A lot of guys around him would have trouble adjusting. For those who did not listen, they would have to do KP, push-ups, running, or if they goofed off in class their superiors would throw stuff at them. Most of them would eventually get through the process. He picked going into the engineering because he was raised on a farm. He enjoyed working with tractors, motors, bull dozers and other things like that. Engineering Training: (5:40)  After basic, he was sent directly to Leonard Wood, for a 3 month course in engineering training. �         This stage of training was different from basic in the sense that there was more classroom experience and he did a lot more operation work on the equipment. The discipline was not quite as harsh either. The men he would attend training with at Leonard Wood would be a much different group than the one he trained with at basic. More of them were enlistees and they learned from basic what they needed to concerning discipline. Most of the guys there were pretty much the same age. Their routine consisted of getting up in the morning and making rounds across the grounds picking up cigarette butts, then some exercises and then they started their classes. After classes he would go out into the field and operate on the machinery. One of the big things he learned out was maintenance. After his training at Leonard Wood, he was assigned to a unit, the 93rd Engineering Battalion. He left for Fort Lewis, Washington and stayed there for about 9 months for the whole unit to organize and come together there. While there he did a lot of classroom stuff and makeshift projects. They did just about anything to make sure the men there stay occupied. Their job in Vietnam was supposed to work on mainly airport runways. Active Duty: (10:10)              They shipped out to Vietnam in January or February of 1967. As his unit was formed, he did learn more about Vietnam, but he said you never really know until you’re there. He had no expectation for what was going to happen when he got there. He just figured if it’s going to happen, then it’s going to happen. He went to Vietnam on a troop ship. The trip took 21 days and they made a stop at the Philippines for one day. While he stopped there he went to shore, but was not allowed off base. When he got to Vietnam, he landed in Vung Tau. When he got there he was awestruck by the poverty he saw. The poverty that the people there lived in what something that he had never seen. His unit was based originally at Long Binh. As a battalion they would create the camp and build it up from an open field. At that point they did have guard duty and they did see the enemy at night, though never during the day. They used infrared goggles to see the enemy at night, an early version of night vision. Unlike what many veterans remembered, it was pretty quiet. This was mostly likely due to the fact that he was exempt from guard duty because he was serving in another position. He would help the clerk out with some of his paperwork because he could type. It would not take long before they began building airplane runways out of dirt, although he would not participate in any of it as he was working in the clerk’s office. The native Vietnamese, most of them teens, would help them out by cleaning their huts and doing their laundry. Of course there was concern that they were spies gathering � information, but they were screened fairly heavily before being allowed to enter the camp. He would go to Saigon a number of times, as he had a friend stationed there. He would just go to another base, but he would see poverty and more poverty along the way. Promotion: (18:40)                 He would not remain with the 93rd battalion very long as he was offered a promotion. His new position would be stationed at the Brigade Headquarters in Bien Hoa. He would move 2 months after he arrived in Vietnam. Bien Hoa would be basically the same thing as Long Binh, but established for a longer period of time. It was the 20th Engineer Base Headquarters In that area, they base was very much on its own. He would be stationed there when the Tet Offensive began. The base would be hit a couple of times and they would have to take cover in the bunkers. It would be closest he got to any sort of action there. After the attack all he can remember is people digging holes for bodies for the Viet Cong. It was unreal for him. The fighting would last three or four nights on that particular base. They would suffer from mortar fire and rifle fire around the perimeter. Most of the attacks would occur at night, and none during the day. There was no contact at the time and no information about what was going on across Vietnam. As an officers’ clerk he would deal with many different ranks of people, the highest ever being a colonel. He would have to type up their performance review sheets and would handle the paper work being done for rating the different officers. Usually he would have to deal with military career men, nothing really below a captain. He would often go off base to Saigon with the chaplain. Infiltration and other sorts of action would not be a problem for him while he was at Bien Hoa. He also would not see anything of the South Vietnamese Army either, other than when he would make a trip to Saigon and he would see them there. They were never on the base at all. They would have movies and celebrity entertainment, USO shows for entertainment for the soldiers. Sebastian Cabot, the narrator of the Winne the Pooh stories, would be one of the guests who would visit while Richard was in Vietnam. Cabot did not do much for entertainment, but merely went around base and shook people’s hands and spoke with them. (24:25) Connie Francis would come in and put on a show. He remembers that she was kind of nasty. While he was there, the only action that was down that far was during the Tet Offensive. Otherwise the front lines were farther north. One time, a group of airborne men had come to the base for a couple of days and things got out of hand. Someone would eventually get shot. It was surprising because he did not expect his own to act like that. �      He remembers that it was really hot and very wet. There was a lot of rain. It would be bad at Long Binh when he had to trudge through mud, but it really wasn’t that bad at Bien Hoa. There was no air conditioning, but they did have big fans to help keep things circulating. He spent a total of a year of Vietnam. While he was there, they tried to get him to reenlist, but he had another year to go before his enlistment ended. Instead they focused more on other who were ready to leave. Some did end up staying for another tour, even without going home. At that point he was ready to go home, but he had another year left. Back to the United States: (29:00)    After his tour in Vietnam was finished he would come back to the United States and spend his last year at Fort Benning, Georgia, keeping his position as an officer records clerk. The overall atmosphere at Fort Benning was very carefree and fun. Since many of the men there were getting out, they really did not care and there was a lot less when it came to discipline. He had no thoughts of staying in the Army. Post Duty: (30:00)            He thought he would have an idea of what he was going to do when he got out, but he was wrong. He really enjoyed operating and thought he would go into construction, but he ended up going back to GM. He had only worked there for 3 months before he left. He took an apprenticeship in tool and die and he really like it. After he got back he noticed the attitude toward the war was very negative. He felt that way too, even when he was over there. He and others would talk about that a lot when he was over there. It was the general shared opinion of those behind the front lines. When he got home, he came back to his family. There was nothing spectacular. There were a lot of people who would ask questions about what it was like when he was over there. He did not like the anti-war protests. He thinks that they did not know what they were talking about. He likes what he sees now when he sees soldiers come back from Iraq. He’s heard stories of people seeing a man return in uniform and asking him questions, buying him lunch. He thinks that the treatment that soldiers get nowadays is truly amazing. (33:20) While he worked at GM he would check car parts. It was mostly hand work at first, until the years started going by and then machines started taking over. He worked at GM for 39 years. Looking back, he thinks that everyone should join the Army and see what it’s like. At the time he did not like it, but he certainly thinks there are good things that come out of it, like an appreciation for what you have and discipline. There was no problem with any racial issues in the unit that he served in. It was mostly whites and a few blacks. � He learned out to work with people from all different parts of life and he learned out to respond to their emotions and feelings. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TibbeR Title A name given to the resource Tibbe, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tibbe, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Tibbe enlisted in the Army in 1966. He trained as a combat engineer, and served in Vietnam 1967-68. He was given clerical jobs with engineer units based in Long Binh and Bien Hoa, outside of Saigon, and did not spend time in the field. The one time when he experienced and attack was at the start of the Tet Offensive, when he was at Bien Hoa. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-16 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/68dd35ad300130cdbf79f72207420157.pdf f30c544eafde67bb025f6f36f320e528 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Frank Tichvon World War II Total Time: 22:52 Pre-War (00:33) • • Was born in Barry County, Michigan. Was drafted into the Army in October, 1941. Training (02:10) • • • • • Worked as a combat engineer. He was trained at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, and as they were some of the first trained there he found it very difficult. Spent 13 weeks in basic training (03:41) Was then sent to Fort Robinson, Arizona, for maneuvers, and after Pearl Harbor was attacked they were shipped to Fort Ord, California. The journey to Fort Ord took them 6 days and 5 nights by train. Active Duty (04:15) • • • • • • • • • • • • • • While they were at Fort Ord they build fake machine gun nests in case of an invasion by the Japanese. They were then shipped to Canada where they built 305 miles of the Alcan Highway. They then built around 300 miles of trails to oil wells in Canada, but eventually that was abandoned. The total time he spent in Canada was around 18 months. (04:55) He was then sent to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to specialized training for 6 weeks and was then sent to Scotland and then on to England. While in England, he spent more time training. A lot of their training dealt with mines, specifically clearing the mines. They also spent time fixing potholes and building bridges. (06:45) They had some casualties, but they were generally from accidents during construction rather than live fire. (08:05)During the Battle of the Bulge, they became surrounded and were cut off from the rest of the Army. His unit earned 5 Bronze Stars and a Presidential Unit Citation. (09:30) He was part of the 45th and 35th Combat Engineers. They were often limited on supplies He had a good opinion of the officers in his battalion Post-Service (13:10) �• • He got out of the service in October, 1945. He had a couple of good friends from the service with whom he kept in contact with. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TichvonF Title A name given to the resource Tichvon, Frank (Interview outline and video), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tichvon, Frank Description An account of the resource Frank Tichvon was born in Barry County, Michigan, and served in World War II. Drafted in 1941, Tichvon served in the U.S. Army. He worked in Canada building the Alcan Highway and trails. He was later sent to England and then to the European continent, where he worked for a construction battalion whose job was to clear mines and construct bridges. He served in the Battle of the Bulge. He was discharged in October, 1945. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Yanosik, Christine (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-12-07 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e634540e63d1ef61593f1da7a34462dd.mp4 1b1c39b59853d3c0f9be8c75b5e9de16 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/31c5a8dbab5facb96ae2a018b373ff0e.pdf f30c544eafde67bb025f6f36f320e528 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Frank Tichvon World War II Total Time: 22:52 Pre-War (00:33) • • Was born in Barry County, Michigan. Was drafted into the Army in October, 1941. Training (02:10) • • • • • Worked as a combat engineer. He was trained at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, and as they were some of the first trained there he found it very difficult. Spent 13 weeks in basic training (03:41) Was then sent to Fort Robinson, Arizona, for maneuvers, and after Pearl Harbor was attacked they were shipped to Fort Ord, California. The journey to Fort Ord took them 6 days and 5 nights by train. Active Duty (04:15) • • • • • • • • • • • • • • While they were at Fort Ord they build fake machine gun nests in case of an invasion by the Japanese. They were then shipped to Canada where they built 305 miles of the Alcan Highway. They then built around 300 miles of trails to oil wells in Canada, but eventually that was abandoned. The total time he spent in Canada was around 18 months. (04:55) He was then sent to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to specialized training for 6 weeks and was then sent to Scotland and then on to England. While in England, he spent more time training. A lot of their training dealt with mines, specifically clearing the mines. They also spent time fixing potholes and building bridges. (06:45) They had some casualties, but they were generally from accidents during construction rather than live fire. (08:05)During the Battle of the Bulge, they became surrounded and were cut off from the rest of the Army. His unit earned 5 Bronze Stars and a Presidential Unit Citation. (09:30) He was part of the 45th and 35th Combat Engineers. They were often limited on supplies He had a good opinion of the officers in his battalion Post-Service (13:10) �• • He got out of the service in October, 1945. He had a couple of good friends from the service with whom he kept in contact with. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_TichvonF Title A name given to the resource Tichvon, Frank (Interview outline and video), 200 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-12-07 Description An account of the resource Frank Tichvon was born in Barry County, Michigan, and served in World War II. Drafted in 1941, Tichvon served in the U.S. Army. He worked in Canada building the Alcan Highway and trails. He was later sent to England and then to the European continent, where he worked for a construction battalion whose job was to clear mines and construct bridges. He served in the Battle of the Bulge. He was discharged in October, 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tichvon, Frank Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Yanosik, Christine (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3750b3dc1b3f28429205d8d1aa2f4996.pdf add4030c9d558be9c7c85ae7747b62f2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Philip Tietz (14:57) Background Information (00:03) • • • • • • Born June 12th 1942. (00:05) Served in the U.S. Army, attaining the rank of Staff Sergeant (00:07) Phillip grew up in Lansing, Michigan. (00:30) He ran track and managed the football team in high school. (00:55) Phillip enlisted in the Army in March of 1963. Because he struggled in college, Philip figured he would be drafted. So instead, he decided to enlist and get the branch of service he desired. (1:02) Phillip chose the Army due to the opportunities it had offered at the time. (1:27) Training (1:43) • • • He attended basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Phillip was in the wrong unit (an airborne unit) this mean he was undergoing much more difficult physical training. (1:45) Philip was placed in a radio school in Fort Monmouth New Jersey. (2:11) He was taught to be a radio receiver repair man. (2:25) Service in Vietnam (2:54) • • • • • • • • • • The first year he served in country (approx 1964-1965) he was living in Saigon and worked in a unit that was stationed in a small village outside of Saigon. (2:55) Once he arrived in Vietnam he was assigned to be a systems controller. (3:32) During his first year of service, Phillip was in a rear unit and saw very little “action.” He did, however, return for a second tour of duty and this time was placed more towards the front in a town called Le Trang. Here he carried out the same radio jobs. (4:28) When living in Saigon, Phillip took a bus ten miles to get to his work station. It was not uncommon for this bus to be shot at or have grenades lobbed through its windows. (5:02) Phillips second tour (aprox. 1965-1966) consisted of being flown via helicopter to different locations where radios needed to be fixed. (5:44) His service did affect him; however he does not believe he had PTSD. (6:20) Phillip did manage to make close friends during his military service; he has since lost contact with them. (6:31) To communicate with home, Phillip relied primarily upon letters. (7:14) During his first service of duty, the men were allowed to go out into town more often. There were bowling allies, restaurants, bars, and other amenities that the men could use. Phillip liked to go to the things that the military offered of established because they were most often the safest. (8:00) From Phillip's hotel in Saigon, he could see fire fights in the jungle 20 miles away. (9:30) End of Service (9:40) �• • • Phillip was not in country when the war ended. He was glad that he himself was not in Vietnam. He thinks that the country's actions were not very effective or wise. (9:57) He was flown to California to be processed and discharged. (10:34) When Philip was discharged he had to walk out of the military base to catch a bus to go to the airport. In order to do so he was required to walk past protesters. (11:00) Thoughts on Service (11:30) • • • He thinks that the Army is much better prepared and has had great increases in the amount of technology and effective strategies. (11:45) The equipment that Phillip worked on was very unreliable and somewhat impractical. (13:19) It was a very interesting experience for Phillip, but he would not like his son or his grandson to experience it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TietzP1187V Title A name given to the resource Tietz, Phillip (Interview outline), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tietz, Phillip Description An account of the resource Philip Tietz, born June 12th 1942, served in the U.S. Army from 1963-1966 during the Vietnam War. During his first tour of duty, he lived in Saigon and worked as a systems controller. On his second tour, Phillip was flown via helicopter to various locations where radios needed repair. Phillip was discharged in 1966. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGookey, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-05-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/60a5be29562e7fafdc0dc7aaef7fa540.mp4 8d1b5b21a7c32edf3d99cef37226fc0e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b00ce48412daf1d3ebbe268f186a4fab.pdf 723b369e680431a173b4741fc1dc2cef PDF Text Text Robert Timmerman (60:00) (00:04) Background Information • Robert was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan • His father worked on the road and was gone a lot • He graduated from high school in 1931 • Robert went to work with his dad after high school at American Seating Co. • He was drafted in March of 1943 (7:01) Training • Robert was sent to Kalamazoo, Michigan and then to Camp Grant • They were told that they were going to be Ski Troops and were sent to North Carolina • When they got to North Carolina they found out they were going to be a part of the new 78th Division Calvary • Robert was assigned to be the Squad Leader • He went through 4 basic trainings and was there for 19 months • He was in charge of soldiers in the Army Specialized Training Program • They did maneuvers in Tennessee and then went to Camp Pickett, Virginia (15:18) Deployment • They shipped out from New York on an English troop ship that carried 5,000 troops • They landed in England and crossed the English Channel • Robert landed at Le Havre on the day before Thanksgiving • He boarded a train towards Tongeren, Belgium • They went to the Hurtgen Forest to lead the 8th Division • There was a lot of casualties there from mortars • After leaving the Hurtgen Forest they were supposed to have a break �• They went to the Remagen Bridge, which the Germans were trying to blow up, and crossed the Rhine River (26:07) Conditions • It sometimes got down to 15 below zero • They would lay back to back in their foxholes to keep warm • The men pinned extra socks on their pants to keep them dry • Robert ate K rations and chocolate D bars (30:00) Wounded • Robert was wounded in Germany while walking behind a tank • He heard a loud explosion and woke up in the hospital with his hand bandaged • Robert received a Purple Heart • He told the Army he wanted to go on fighting (31:35) German Towns • The towns were not all completely destroyed and sometimes they were able to find beds to sleep in • The Germans that surrendered to them were about their age and some were SS troops • Then they went to the Roer River dams that were rigged to blow by the Germans • If the dams were blown they would have taken out a lot of troops from both sides • They went by one prison camp that had already been taken over • The war ended when they were in Wuppertal, Germany (36:02) After the War • Robert shipped out on the ship John L. Sullivan • The ship had 500 men on it and most of them got sick for the whole 16 days it took to get home • When Robert got home he bought a tavern and ran it for 16 years �• He was the Township Supervisor and later became President of the School Board � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TimmermanR Title A name given to the resource Timmerman, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Timmerman, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Timmerman was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In 1943 he got drafted at 29 years old. Robert was assigned to the 78th Division and was a Squad Leader. Robert landed in England and made his way through France and Belgium into Germany. He fought at the Hurtgen Forest and in some small towns in Germany, where he received a Purple Heart. His unit was one of the first across the Remagen Bridge. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-28 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a5ebf586a38a740256eb61c049b22f66.mp4 d85f0b989c29931c790ad3bd782d7669 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5fefd6df044f016e68be5bede9225881.pdf e60d6081691d0d5440a0935d4297cb6b PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 8 [Barbara] Hit the light. Okay, now I actually am running. [Tinsley] Okay. [Barbara] When you came to James – you know, it would be nice of you to mention when that was, when you actually came as Dean – what did the administration tell you about what was expected at the college? [Tinsley] I came in the summer of nineteen seventy-two. The college had completed one year of operation when I came. I can't say that the administration of Grand Valley told me anything about what they wanted the college today. Let me just start this again. It’s going to take me a little... [Barbara] Well, I'll adjust the shot. [Tinsley] Okay, it's going to take me a little bit to kind of warm up. [Barbara] I know, it always does. [Tinsley] It's like doing a practice interview. [Barbara] It is, so start again and take as many times as you want. I have an entire case of tapes. [Tinsley] Okay. [Barbara] What was it like? What did the administration tell you? "Hi Adrian, here's what you're supposed to do." [Tinsley] Well, I came to the college in nineteen seventy-two. And I can't say that the administration told me anything about what they wanted the college to be. The college had completed its first year of operation. I knew that Grand Valley was beginning a cluster college operation and that William James was the third college and that Grand Valley anticipated that there would be more colleges. That the decision had been taken early in Grand Valley's life – in fact, it had been a plan George Potter's, I believe – that instead of just growing bigger, because �Grand Valley expected to grow significantly. Instead of just growing large, they would develop a whole series of colleges and each would have its own mission and its own curriculum. So, William James… I understood William James was to be part of that. And I understood that there had been a task force to set up William James chaired by Tom Cunningham. And I understood that what was written in the task force document was what the administration wanted the college to be and that was a career-oriented college. What I did not understand was that even at the point at which I arrived at William James – in its second year – there was some significant concern in the Grand Valley administration about the direction that the two cluster colleges, Thomas Jefferson and William James, were taking. [Tinsley] And, in fact, after I had been the Dean of William James for a year, the Vice President to whom I reported, Bruce Loessin, said to me with a big smile: "Well you've really done a good job – the college has survived! Most of us didn't think that was going to happen!" And that was my first indication that there was any question in anybody's mind that the college would survive. [Barbara] Two things about that I didn't understand. I don't understand who Potter is… you made a reference. [Tinsley] Potter was, I believe, a Vice President for Academic Affairs at Grand Valley and the first president of Grand Valley, James Zumberge… I don't know if it was Potter or Zumberge that had the notion of developing a cluster of colleges. They had that idea but didn't implement it. Don Lubbers was the president who caused that to be implemented. [Barbara] Why… I mean, when Loessin said that to you, you must have said whatever [Inaudible]. Why start a college and presume it's going to fail? I don't understand it. [Tinsley] And reasonably enough you don't understand it. William James was supposed to be a career-oriented college. When the first faculty were hired by Bruce Loessin, he took pains to hire a faculty that came from the traditional liberal arts disciplines and were very – not traditional – but very good faculty in the traditional sense. They had good academic degrees. They were not interested in doing career education in the sense that I think Grand Valley had in mind. I think Grand Valley had in mind that William James would be what they later had to start Kirkhof in order to get. So, there was a sense right from the beginning that they were looking for a technical college and William James was becoming something quite different from what they had in mind. But what can they expect, given the faculty that they had hired to found the college? [Barbara] Turn this off for a second. Make sure this thing is running right. I get a certain �amount of neuroses… paranoia, that's the word I'm looking for. Tell me… Ah! Tell me… let’s get you in the shot. [Tinsley] Tell me, whoever you are. [Barbara] Okay. Tell me what the administration said… what did you observe? What was it in total, you know, really meshing all kinds of things? What was going on when you arrived? What kind of place was it? [Tinsley] It was struggling to be born when I arrived. It had been in operation for you a year. It had had no planning time. It had been started just immediately, crack off the bat. After that, the task force report had been completed; an acting dean had been put in; the faculty had been brought in. [Tinsely] And they had no lead time, they were just told that you are open in September and get your curriculum together. So, they were struggling that whole first year to put together a first curriculum and hire a new staff. There was not much opportunity to do anything other than run very hard to accomplish those tasks. But my belief about the college… and I knew it pretty well because I interviewed for its deanship before it started and then did not come at that time…had other commitments and then came a year later. So, I had a chance to talk to Robert Mayberry and Bruce Loessin that very first summer, and then again in the interview process for the second year. What I observed were that the faculty that were at the college took that planning document – the Cunningham Task Force Report – very seriously. And they were about the business of trying to make that happen. And I observed that the most compelling part of it – it certainly was to me and I believe it was to the faculty – was the notion of good work. We had a lot of words for that, you know. Vocation with a "V," career-oriented, the notion of doing something useful in the world. And we struggled a lot because we didn't want this college to be simply career-oriented, but we wanted to have utility to do something useful in the world – to make social change – and there were a whole bunch of ways of talking about that. But that's what I saw when I came… that people were looking at the college to be and that people wanted the college to be. Everybody came to the college with a critique of their own graduate education because we were all young. So, we were very clear about what we wanted the college not to be and, in fact, that was kind of a problem early on. We kept defining ourselves in terms of what we didn't want to be. We didn't want to have grades. We didn't want to have majors and disciplines. We didn't want to have a sterile kind of research focus. So, everybody had their own critique and everybody, I think, also had their own dream of what the perfect college would be, what the perfect society would be. The piece of it that was in the public space right from the beginning was making a difference in the world and that's what I thought people wanted to do in the world. �[Barbara] Change the shot here. [Tinsley] Does the tape pick up your questions? [Barbara] Yes, but what I'll do is redub them because I'm off mic. [Tinsley] Okay, okay. [Barbara] You can hear them, but you have to strain to hear them. [Tinsley] Okay. [Barbara] So I get a chance to clean up my act. [Barbara] James operated as a sovereign state. You would agree? [Tinsley] Yes. [Barbara] Did we seize that sovereignty or was it given to us? [Tinsley] Neither really. We didn't seize it. Seizing implies some kind of resistance. I think in the early years, the Grand Valley administration did not have a particular plan as to how they thought the college should develop or indeed what they wanted from it. We took a lot of freedom, but we didn't really have to fight them for it. [Barbara] If we can just stay in this shot. How did feminism infuse the college? [Tinsley] Well, feminism was extraordinarily important in the college. I think… you obviously are going to have to edit this because I will get rolling in a little bit but I'm not yet. I think feminism was probably one of the most important social forces that operated in the college. It's an interesting mystery why the initial first eight male faculty turned around and hired a number of strong women faculty and the women dean. But that's in fact what happened. I said earlier that everybody brought their own dream to the college. I think the women, in particular, brought a feminist dream and you have to remember this was nineteen seventy-two, so feminism was just really becoming a significant social force. And feminism embraced both notions of, you know, gender equity and also notions about organizational structure. There was a lot of talk in the feminist community at that time about non-hierarchical decision making. About rotating authority. About everybody taking turns doing the job so that everybody got a chance to do all the jobs. A lot of talk about how you didn't want to specialize into male roles and female roles or faculty roles and administrative roles, you know, to go by extension. So, the whole philosophic context of radical feminism came into the college as in many ways as the dream – or at least the strong interest – of a lot of �the women faculty that came. And particularly as it related to, you know, malefemale relations and organizational structures. The men were coming in with the same kind of a dream. They may have come to it through feminism per say or they may have come to it through some other kind of social analysis. But there was general agreement on what our politics and then for the social structure of the college. So, I guess I would say feminism affected the college because there were a lot of women there. I mean we were very unusual in that there were so many women and that the women really were in positions of a good deal of authority, respect, and influence – both formally and informally. Whether they were program coordinates, or the Dean, or whether they were just strong faculty who were “Weighty Friends” in the Quaker sense in the design of the curriculum. Feminism, I think, influenced a lot of our early attempts and organizational structures. [Tinsely] The whole governing structure, the coordinator's temporum, or the notion that we would take turns doing the college's jobs. And I think it influenced the way we treated each other. It influenced what kinds of interactions were acceptable in the public space of college and, indeed, in people's home lives. And I think it was interesting in that regard the ways they interacted with each other – the men and women in college. We never fell into sex roles – or the kinds of gender-based, sex-based teasing – that is real frequent in other situations. The place that feminism didn't affect the college terribly strong was we never developed a very strong Women's Studies program. I often felt as Dean, you know, I was really remiss in the kinds of formal curricular or extracurricular things we could offer our women students. I often saw women students come in, you know, if they’re first in their family going to college, with very conventional aspirations and it was possible for women students to go through this structure that was a college and be a little untouched about what was going on. And I thought that was a real weakness. And I think it came from the fact that the women were so busy in their nontraditional roles - sort of running the college, developing the curriculum – that there really weren't people to spare for developing the more usual Women's Resource Center, Women's Studies program, and the like. [Barbara] I think to me, a question that follows that when we were interviewing faculty, we went through these long interview processes – forty-eight-hour things – and we always knew what we were looking for. What were we looking for? [Tinsley] Well, I think the easy answer to that is we were looking for people like ourselves. But what did it mean to be like us? I think we were looking for some sort of real evidence of commitment to social change. We were looking at people's politics. We had political litmus tests and I think there's… you know, we shouldn't blink that fact. I can remember interviewing a candidate for psychologist at one point – a woman – and she was asked something that had to do with feminism and then she responded that she didn't care to define herself; she didn't care to take on a �label. It was very important to us that people we label that they have politics. So, I think we were looking for that. I think we were looking for breadth. I think we were looking for people that were interested in a lot of things. And I think we were looking for people that weren't interested in sort of narrow, discipline based, traditional academic interest. I think we found them kind of pompous and kind of boring. We could know us when we saw us. But how you'd write that down on paper it isn't really clear. Except we did know us when we saw us, and we were anti-pomposity and we were pro-politics. But our politics had a very broad definition. We were pretty inclusive in our politics, but we demanded that people have politics, I believe. [Barbara] It’s coming up to the… conveniently this blinks at me when we’re running out of tape. [Tinsley] Okay, okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_26_Tinsley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tinsley, Adrian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Adrian Tinsley interview (1 of 8, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses her arrival at William James College during its second year of operation, in addition to how feminism infused the college. This interview is part 1 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories College administrators Women college administrators Women in higher education Feminism Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/354f3ad1f96b741ab62276b0aeb34e68.mp4 baa701d267c1fb3b7ffeb14aacdcabc3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ddd97b05c966bf3ee59f9b5f4e0e1cdb.pdf a1814268b269c8fe86f32b0836c9badf PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 8 [Barbara] And I'm rolling. [Tinsley] Okay. [Barbara] And I wanted to ask you: we refer to some mysterious beast called a “real William James student.” What's a real William James student? [Tinsley] Well, again, you know, a real William James student – you knew one when you saw one. We wanted students to take responsibility for their own education; we painted it up on the walls in Lake Superior Hall… that wonderful cartoon of the student we didn't want which was somebody having knowledge poured into his head through a funnel. We wanted students to do it themselves. And so, a real William James student was a person who knew what he or she wanted to learn and took their own route in getting there. [Barbara] I just screwed up, Adrian; I just pulled the panhandle. Can you repeat the last part? [Tinsley] Sure. [Barbara] I’m sorry. [Tinsley] A real William James student was a student who knew what he or she wanted to learn and desired to take responsibility for learning it. Wanted to use the faculty as resource people. Wanted to figure out how to learn and was willing to hustle to, you know, really move their butt to get what they needed. Willing to go to a lot of sources and use a lot of resources. Had some drive and motivation. I think in the early days, the real William James student was somebody who was specifically seeking an alternative education, who shared the views of the faculty. In the areas, for example, of grading. That letter grading was at the root of all evil. Who wanted the freedom to design their own way of studying things, who wanted to do independent studies. And as those students became fewer and fewer in number because we had many more those of in the early days of the college, you know, then I think the real William James student became simply the one with energy. The one who was self-initiating. �[Barbara] How did we teach them this? [Tinsley] I don't think we taught them to it, they came with us. They came with us. [Barbara] But there was a phenomenon of students who were lost for a year and then turned it on. [Tinsley] Well, that's true. But I don't know how that happened. But you have to remember, I was not in the classroom teaching the students so that I got to know the good students and I got to know the problem students. [Tinsely] But I could not explain how that mystery actually happened in the classroom because I wasn't there. [Barbara] Let me grab my notepad out of here. Oh, the rocking adds a nice comfortable touch. We were profoundly egalitarian, and yet you were in a leadership role. How does one lead a commune? [Tinsley] That is a very good question, and I must say what I learned about leadership in that situation… that's probably the most important learning I took from the college actually. I guess I'd answer that by saying I didn't go to William James; I didn't set out to be the leader. I didn't know enough to know I was supposed to set out to be the leader. And I think one of the things that is important about William James and my contribution to it is that not only were all the faculty very young, I was very young. I have never been a dean before. I didn't know, really, what deans we're supposed to do. All of us made this college up out of we what we knew. And all of us had a critique, but none of us really knew how to make the college happen. I think it's important for the college that I did not arrived with an agenda. I arrived responsive to the same social climate that everyone else was responsive to. We had a variety of ideologies, a variety of critiques, but I didn't go there saying "I am the Dean and this is my vision of alternative education". I think that the role that I played… and I don't want to give the impression that I was the colleges facilitator, because I don't view what I did in that way. But I think what I did I think I had the gift of being able to understand what kind of vision for the college motivated most of the people who were there. And they were very different visions and I think my gift was to be able to find some common ground among those visions that we could agree to and put that in the public space and affirm it. And I think that – as I thought about in later years - I think that is probably the quintessential quality of leadership. Pat Labone used to say to me that what the dean should do is read the litany. She had a Catholic childhood and there was some real truth to that. I often used to long to have a chapel and William James that everyone was required to attend so the little inspirational speeches could be made. I think it's important that an institution have that and I think that I brought that to the college. And I think that I had the ability to bridge �among the various kinds of faculty at the college. I think it was extraordinarily important to success of the college that I could talk to heavy male synoptic types, that I could talk that language and that I valued that. I think it was important that I could talk to the women. And I think it was important that I could talk to the people who brought professional skills into the college but more scared, frustrated, and sometimes irritated at the quality of intellectual discourse that went on because they felt insecure about participating in it. And I truly believed there was room for everybody. And I think that I kind of could embody that. And I think I also – in terms of leadership – was able to work with the college's peerpressure structure. [Tinsely] Because you can't tell people to do things and you can't make people do things, and an administrator has to work with what's there. You can say "no" but you can't make it happen. And so, the trick to it is to be able to mobilize the energy that's there, give it some focus, and get people on the same wavelength. And the college had very strong norms of behavior. I mean there was a lot of peer pressure in the college that said, I believe, what faculty were supposed to do and what they were not supposed to do. And I think I was able to work with that and I think I was able to find some constructive channels for using people's energy. Not always, but if there was a trick to operating as a leader in that kind of setting, that's how I would describe it. [Barbara] But surely what you just described at the end of your answer would be true of being an administrator at any college. [Tinsley] Yeah, it is, but it was more so at William James because we had a rhetoric about – and said and really meant – that we were non-hierarchical. I think that's how the whole critical issue format developed, which I think was a very healthy one for the college. As inexperienced as I was – and I really was absolutely green when I came to William James as Dean – and I remember, practically, the first week that I was there we were drafting the governance document for the college. And that was drafted by Robert and Inge and it was very elaborate, and it was really a model for participatory form of governance that worked neither on hierarchy nor Roberts Rules of Order, which was what we wanted. But even though I was I very green and I looked at that and I said: "Wait a minute, the Dean has responsibility beyond, simply in a consensus fashion, gathering the will of the faculty and implementing it.” There are probably issues at the college that I am responsible for and there are issues that the faculty is responsible for, and yet we’re all responsible for all of this together – how can we sort that out? And out of that came the notion of a critical issue. That most of the times we would all be on the same wavelength about what we wanted to have happen. But because we had different responsibilities and sat, in a sense, in different chairs, there might be times when the college would want to do X, but I would know it couldn't. It absolutely couldn't. And thus, was born, you know, the critical issue and the �veto. An elaborate way of saying: "But the college says this and the Dean said that, the Dean would say 'no.'" And then you'd go back and discuss it some more. And you might still come out with yes and no but their would be ways so… I didn't abrogate what was my real responsibility to make sure that in matters of relating to the structure at Grand Valley, the college didn't harm itself. And that the college at some basic level operated in the way it ought to: in trust from the people of Michigan, through the Board of Control, you know, through the President, and down to me. I had real, legal, responsibilities there. [Tinsley] And yet at the same time I was a member of the community and wanted to be involved in the process of working out what the college was going to be and do. Because I didn't know. So, I was both part of the process and outside of the process. [Barbara] Presuming that some people are going to see this tape that have no direct experience with James, would you care to give an example of a critical issue that actually came up? [Tinsley] Yes. The critical issues came up around hiring issues and around money. And two examples were: at one point the council voted to hire a faculty member and I felt the decision was untenable, that it was made not because the person was the best candidate, but because there were a great many…the person was known to us, there were many personal feelings involved. And I felt it would be irresponsible of me to let that decision go forward, so I vetoed it. Another issue came when we had a very elaborate, as you will recall, salary administration policy. And which I did not like, but never really interfered in because I felt that was the faculty's business to determine. I did not approve of it. In one particular year, it works to really the detriment of an older member of the faculty who was going to end up with a less than a cost of living raises as a result of the operation of this policy and I said "No, that would not be acceptable." There may have been others that were more, you know, policy issues but I don't recall them. One of the interesting things was that these issues arose very rarely because we have did most of our work by persuading one another. It was very interesting; we were frequently compared with Thomas Jefferson College because we were both alternative colleges of sort of different kinds of stripes. I thought, and I think many people agree, that there were very different leadership styles at the two colleges. Thomas Jefferson was run by guru, a bearded, alternative education dean who put his picture on the front of all the colleges brochures. And then, in fact, the early brochures, you know, showed his face with his beard and the little legend was: "This man runs a college." The faculty at Thomas Jefferson seem to be very pleased to have a dean who would be their guru and who would not tell them what to do exactly but would take care of them. That was basically what it amounted to, would take care of them. And we had a model that was much more political. Our model was: everybody had to understand how this works, �everybody has to have an operator manual because we all have to understand the political context we're working in order for to work, I guess. I don't want to say, "We won't survive," because we didn't sit around thinking "Well, maybe it won't survive." But we all had to understand it. [Tinsely] And I felt really strongly about that and I think most of the faculty felt strongly about that. And I was not there to, you know, be there to take care of them, and they were not there to be, you know, recipients of somebody's guruism. I think that was real important as to how we worked. It was like a marriage, it really was. People called me Adrian, but if they were really angry at me, they referred to me as the Dean and I didn't like that, you know. I can recall saying: "I am not the Dean!" or "I am Dean, but my name is Adrian!" So, there was, you know… I don't quite know where I'm going with the rest of that answer but… [Barbara] Let me check on the tape. Ah, look there! See, I have this sixth sense. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_27_Tinsley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tinsley, Adrian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Adrian Tinsley interview (2 of 8, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses what makes a "real William James student" and her experience as a first-time dean of William James College. This interview is part 2 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories College administrators Women college administrators Women in higher education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87ae057bb80134a199788b0801fac231.mp4 9b6d9cb5256e7ae095f44fae10bcfb88 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d532358870b38f47b104952ec650a917.pdf 44e7f725305ce13c81a99d6004dfe4b3 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley Date: 1984 Part: 3 of 8 [Barbara] There you go. There’s a good tape… [inaudible]. Okay, we’re a go. Just tell me, just [inaudible] about the beginning. [Tinsley] Well, what I really remember about the beginning – although, of course, I didn't realize it at the time – was we were all so young. I sometimes think about the three older faculty who are in their fifties, who were hired because the initial core faculty had some sense that we ought to have a spread of age and experience in the college, which was an absolutely right instinct. But I wonder what it must have felt like to Willard and Doris and Phyllis to arrive with this entire college that was so very, very, very young. And I look at the pictures of us from those days, and it's kind of interesting to see us. We were very concerned to build a sense of community in the college and that expressed itself in a lot of ways. The first year, I recall, the first fall that I was there we decided to go on a retreat together. And we all packed up our camping gear and we went off. I can't even remember where – somewhere on a river. I remember being out on a rowboat with Pat and Inge and Romano. I remember that Robert wouldn't go because he didn't believe in going camping. And I remember that Richard expressed the sentiments that he would not know how to pack the right food and he was hooted down for the sentiment and told that he would have to work like everyone else. We had the phrase – which I'm sure many people have referred to – we wanted to integrate our work and our lives. We wanted to be an intentional community. In some ways, as the years went on, that wore a little thin as we realize that the integrating our work and our lives meant basically abolishing our private lives. And spouses were not always thrilled to be part this of intimate, intentional community. But I remember the first fall… our way of doing business was typified by the first fall. We had a confrontation. One of the students, a black student, whose name I have forgotten… I may be putting two or three incidents together. But there was some real criticism of how we were doing business. I believe it came from a black student, although I have forgotten his name at the moment. And to deal with that, we simply shut college down for a day and all got together to talk about it. And that seemed to be the most reasonable thing in the world to do. Toni Cena wrote a very moving statement which she read. I can remember us all sitting around on the floor, talking earnestly about whatever these charges were that had been brought, and how we can do better as a college, and how students could take more of a hand in the college. And that seemed the most natural way in the world to do business and very, very good. And we did a lot of �that. I remember the first year we painted the walls of Lake Superior together and that was very nice. And I can remember – or maybe it was the second year – Rhonda was the Assistant Dean, and I can remember people painting mustaches on me and Rhonda and taking pictures of us. [Tinsley] I had a good friend that I worked with in the Modern Language Association who visited me in the first year and I brought her out to the college and showed her around and she turned to me and says: "You can't fool me, Adrian. I know what a college is; this is not a college; this is a summer camp." I always remembered that because I took that as a compliment. There was a real attention to community. [Barbara] Where did that attention come from? Where did that ethic come from? [Tinsley] Well, I think Robert, as he did so many things and gave it articulation. We were – this is not Robert 's formulation – we were not to be alienated from our labor. That's not Robert 's formulation; Robert would have talked about not being cynical. Robert would have talked about, you know, controlling the conditions of your work life so that they were human and met your human needs. They came from the whole movement in the sixties to make work life more responsive to human needs. And I think most of us had felt very alienated in our graduate kind of experiences… had felt we were part of big faceless bureaucracies. It was also a time in American history where there were an awful lot of communes. It was right in the middle of the “back to the commune” movement. So, I think it came from those places. And then once we were all there, is when it kind of took on a life of its own. And I think was, probably for me, it was one of the very, very appealing parts of the college. That it was not only a workplace, but it was a place where you really were yourself, and you know, in a sort of a whole human way. [Barbara] Some people I have talked to acted as though there were two William James Colleges: the early one and the late one. Would you comment on that? With the kinds of things you're talking about, how much of that persists? Or why did it change if it changed to something other? [Tinsley] Yeah. Well, I like to like think it persisted. And for me, of course it persisted. [Barbara] Me, too. [Tinsley] So I don't have the sense of their being two colleges. The college changed in its externals. The college change in some of the externals of its organization to reflect demands that came about as Grand Valley put them on William James, and as the State of Michigan put them on Grand Valley. I learned as I'd gotten older a lot more about the kind of demands that come from the outside that mean �you don't operate as free agent, if you're looking to the state for your money. And as Grand Valley began to get its act together. You asked me earlier what Grand Valley wanted from William James. Grand Valley didn't have its act together, they didn't know how they were going to develop. As they began to get their act together, they wanted William James to fit into their structure. [Tinsely] And so we began to have to do some things to suit Grand Valley. For example, we always had a great deal of flack around the title of the course, "Uptight About Writing" – it became symbolic of kind of conflict we were always in. The faculty thought that the title absolutely expressed with that course was about. The Grand Valley administration thought that that course title made William James look silly and made Grand Valley look silly. We did a lot of changing of external things so that Grand Valley didn't feel it was looking silly. Some of that was legitimate, I think. So, my view was that what changed a lot was our way of fitting into the bureaucracy. The student body changed, you know. That seemed very real to me even though I was not, myself, in the classroom often. I taught maybe once a year. I could tell the students were changing. And the students wanted different things. And I think that's where the sense that there were two William James' comes from. The later students came because we had an Arts and Media program. They just wanted to learn what they, you know, were supposed to learn so they can get jobs in arts and media. The kind of students that really wanted to direct their own education, we had very few of them towards the end. So, I think that was a real change. But for me the other stuff was superficial. [Barbara] I would argue, being in Arts and Media, some of the guys that just graduated and the last people to graduate… I interviewed one of them, and he's typical, okay? And pissed off because they took James away. And he articulates and personifies something that is far more than just a hard nose, "I now have my professional stuff and I'm going out in the world." He talks about being in Steven's class before William James was closed and afterwards and the difference in the other student. You know what I mean? [Tinsley] Yeah, oh yeah. [Barbara] I'm still not convinced it's just the students changed. [Tinsley] Well, it may not be. But my first answer to the question: I didn't feel there was an early William James and a late William James. Perhaps there was in a sense that we were younger earlier and it was fresher. We believed it was a good idea to all go camping with one another. Probably after ten years, we didn't think it was a good idea to all go camping with one another. But that's just sort of time passes and, you know, life happens to you. I didn't think what was at the center of the college changed much. I really didn't. �[Barbara] That makes two of us. [Tinsley] [Laughter] [Barbara] Where did the seminal ideas come from? We talk about feminism – and that's really important – but how did William James actually… it seems like a miracle. I don't understand how James suddenly, genuinely, infused the college… something that had been dead for X number of years, you know. [Tinsley] I think it came from a really happy confluence of a lot of streams of thought and a lot of things that were happening. I think we all acknowledge we were awfully lucky to get the name "William James" and I don't think we thought that up. I believe Tom Cunningham named the college, so we had that to work with. We also had that very thoughtful document that the task force had put together, which embodied a lot of the ideas of the late sixties but pointed forward in his emphasis on careers. So, it gave us something we could kind of sink our teeth into. I think we came from a lot of different intellectual places. We were just Godgiven lucky that it just worked together. Robert, for example, whom I knew the best of anyone because I had known Robert – we had been graduate students together at Cornell. Robert was very interested in the philosophic base the college was working off. He cared passionately about not making what he used to call invidious distinctions between the liberal arts and practical subjects. Roberts was a person… it was very important to Robert to view himself as, simultaneously, a philosopher and a practical man. From his philosophic side came many of the ideas that carried the college forward. And then in the next year also from Stephen. For me, I didn't come to it by reading philosophy. I came to it by teaching at the University of Maryland in the English department. The University of Maryland had, like, fifty thousand students on the College Park campus. There were over one hundred faculty in the English department. And I couldn't figure out what anyone was doing there. I used to look out over the rows of parking lots and say: "I know why I'm here; I'm getting paid to be here. But why are the students here?" I really didn't understand that. It was the late sixties and early seventies. All of the students who were majoring in English were paralyzed, they didn't know what to do with the lives, their degrees we're not going to fit them to do anything, the Vietnam War was going on. The students I knew spent most of their time smoking dope and being very scared. And really not knowing how to interact with the world that was going to greet them when they left the University of Maryland with a kind of a third-rate degree in English literature. For me to come to a college that was going to put some emphasis on being able to do in the world was really important. I mean I cared passionately about that and when I was interviewed, the Grand Valley administration said to me: "Well you have a PhD in English literature, what makes you think you can be the Dean of a college that is practical?" And I said: "You just don't know how much I desire this. This is the desire of my heart." And then I think feminism came in also, with its �stress on theory and practice. I think a lot of people came to the college from an ideologically feminist perspective wanting to combine those two. [Tinsley] So all that came together. And I don't want to say we were just lucky, but we were living at a historic moment where it could come together. [Barbara] This comes from another question that I forgot to ask you. What is a male synoptic heavy? [Tinsley] Oh, a male synoptic heavy? Well, that's the men in the college and it was interesting how it did tend to divide on gender line. [Barbara] Oh damn. Adrian, I just moved the damn thing again. [Tinsley] Oh well, we'll do it again. [Barbara] Keep going anyway. [Tinsley] One of the tensions in the college was that a compelling interest in discussing the philosophical base of the college seemed to divide along gender lines. It divided, to some extent, on professionals versus the liberal arts line, but really it was on gender lines. And there were a group of men that were perceived as the male synoptic heavies, and they carried the flame of the sort of philosophic base of the college. The women saw themselves, in many ways, more as the doers and tended to rely, in many ways, more with the professional faculty. And yet those two had to talk to one another. One of the tensions in the college had to do with one's synoptic credentials. Only on a tape about William James College could one talk with a straight face about one's synoptic credentials. But I can remember at faculty retreat, prior to one of our years, in which we had facilitators come in to get us going for the year. And that's what came out – that there seemed to be a distinction between the philosophers, the synoptians – those who were seen as guarding the flame of those who were appropriately liberal artsy and the others. It was an interesting tension in the college and people felt very insecure about it. The man who did not see themselves as the liberal arts heavies felt very insecure about it, as did some of the women. The women in the college who have those credentials to be synoptic heavies were sometimes impatient with it. I felt that I could really relate to both sides, and those were the strengths. And that the college needed both… because one of the things that gave the college power was that it did have a concept – it really did – and that gave it enormous power. [Barbara] Concept of? [Tinsley] Theory and practice. And using theory and practice to make a difference in the world. �[Tinsely] And we spread out from there – the concept got broader from there. But it had that core concept. [Barbara] End of tape. Good answer. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_28_Tinsley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tinsley, Adrian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Adrian Tinsley interview (3 of 8, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses her memories of the early years at William James College and the importance of community, in addition to how the college developed over time and the role of feminism in theory and practice. This interview is part 3 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories College administrators Women college administrators Women in higher education Feminism Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14658cb13005e4c207bd82efbcb54138.mp4 ec8e601ad6311d86c6027e320ed57869 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b14e73f4cd28bbe0f70381f282ef762a.pdf c143e2bb8723b3c16a980e7665f3bef3 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley Date: 1984 Part: 4 of 8 [Tinsley] Yeah, test at the end. [Barbara] Question will be: [inaudible] the administration at Grand Valley, at various times, would give you, sort of, “We're not completely happy – shape up” or “You're doing very well – this is going to go on forever.” Did you get that kind of feedback from [inaudible]? [Tinsley] Yeah. [Barbara] That's not phrased very well, is it? Do you know what I mean? [Tinsley] Yeah. It's another version of "What did the administration think was happening." [Barbara] Yeah. Okay, anytime you feel comfortable. Let me just double-check that we’re rolling. Yeah, we are. What kind of feedback were you getting from the administration? [Tinsley] It's interesting that I'm having a difficult time answering questions about feedback from the administration at Grand Valley and there were really two parts to the administration at Grand Valley. The first phase was during the period that I reported to Bruce Loessin. And I might just say, parenthetically, that one of wonderful things about being totally greenhorn, an inexperienced dean, and being a woman and never having served in the army, I was told I reported to Bruce Loessin. I guess the first year I reported to Harold Colbert; I had no clue what it meant to report to somebody. I had no notion what the term meant or that I was supposed to tell them what was going on in the college and that was what it meant. But from the college’s second year, up until about nineteen seventyseven, I would guess, Grand Valley had a structure which differentiated where the colleges reported. And William James and Thomas Jefferson reported to Bruce Loessin and the other colleges reported to Glenn Niemeyer. That function was split. In seventy-seven, or whenever the reorganization took place… it may be seventy-seven, maybe seventy-eight. Let me start this answer again Barbara. Okay. [Barbara] No harm. �[Tinsley] Let me think about it for a minute first. Okay, the question that you asked is what kind of feedback, criticism, encouragement, direction that you got from the administration of Grand Valley. There were really two administrations at Grand Valley during the time that William James existed. During the first administration, I reported – William James reported – to Bruce Loessin. Grand Valley had a structure in which the vice presidents were all equal and they were all called the Vice President of the College. [Tinsley] Bruce was, at that time, the vice president of the college William James and also Thomas Jefferson reported to him. This is not just a bureaucratic thing of interest to administrators. Bruce was responsible for William James and for Thomas Jefferson and so he wanted us to do well, as well as he wanted us to do good and fight evil. And he bent his fairly considerable energies to helping us do that and to fighting our battles. You didn't ask if I had any mentor at Grand Valley; if I ever did, it was Bruce. He was a kind of funny mentor, you know, a little short guy. People used to laugh about little, short Bruce and his high heels. But he looked out for William James because it was his – it reported to him. What I got from him was: "You’ve got to make it so it looks like the other colleges. You can't be out there looking weird. I don't want to change anything you're doing; I don't want to change you. I think William James is great and I think you have the finest faculty at Grand Valley, but you have to not look weird." And that was really, to tell you the truth, that was right. Bruce was right about that. He would give me a little pep talk about not looking weird. I'd go back; try to get us not to look weird. But he helped us, you know? He would fight for us when we had clashes about who was going to offer what or were we going to be able to get our name out in advertising brochures. Bruce was there fighting for us. So, he had an interest in us. And seventy-seven or seventy-eight… this was a bizarre structure at Grand Valley with these deans, the vice presidents at the college and the academic units reporting lines split. Don changed the reporting structure and Glenn became the Vice President for Academic Affairs and all of the collegiate units reported to Glenn. Now, you have to understand I'm not saying anything about Glenn or Bruce personally; I'm talking about structure. The day that reorganization came down, Bruce took me to lunch at the Matterhorn and he said: "I just want you to know, that I've always been on your side, always before, and I have really busted my ass to make sure William James got its fair share and survived, and I've been your friend, but you need to know that I'm on the other side now." And I said: "Right. I understand that. I appreciate your just saying that upfront, you know? Thanks for everything Bruce." And in some ways, I mean, you could say that was the beginning of the end. When the college is reported to a different vice president, what it felt like was you had your very own knight. When I needed something, I went to Bruce; CAS needed something, they went to Glenn. Then Bruce and Glenn got into their suits of armor and rode out to go like this to one another. And, you know, sometimes one won, sometimes the other, but the Dean just kind of sat back, you know, and waited to see who was �going to triumph. When all the units reported to Glenn, we had entered the era of rational planning and the emphasis went to program. When the units reported up different lines the emphasis was on, not program distinctiveness, but distinctiveness of mission, distinctiveness of student body, distinctiveness ethos. [Tinsley] When all the students reported to the same vice president – and maybe this would have been true whoever the vice president was. I'm suggesting that I think a lot of the issues were structural; the issue then was which college will do what? We'll have a rational plan, and programmatically, we'll differentiate programmatically, you know. And I think people do have to understand that this was not an individual decision that Glenn made because he was an individual; it had to do with rational planning with the kind of accountability that he had placed on him. Because we were entering a time of much tighter money and Grand Valley couldn't really afford to have computer science programs in both places. It was confusing, it was messy, and it was expensive. So that's the apologia. What actually happened when we started reporting to Glenn was that the whole emphasis went on programs and on new programs. What Glenn wanted from Williams James was that it would develop new, sexy new programs that would attract new students and that could give us a niche that we could occupy. And we fiddled with a lot of things there, at one point, I mean, computers was our thing. At another point it was going to be environmental science and planning; at another point it was going to be social work. The problem that happened there… rational planning might've worked as a model, but the units were of such a different size and political power. We could make all the bargains we liked, we can say "We'll do social work and you do nursing. We'll do arts and media and you do fine arts." But every time a decision was made, we do this and they'll do that, and what we were doing looked interesting or looked like it was drawing students, then the other unit wanted to do it. And we didn't have it – I don't think it was the political clout – we didn't have the size. There were too many faculty angry that little William James got to do this and they didn't get to do it. And so those faculty would go to Glenn or they would go to Don. And Grand Valley was governed in a political way. It was and probably still is on the political model. There are books written about styles of academic governance and you can have the bureaucratic model, and you can have the hierarchical model, and you can have the political model. And Grand Valley was governed in the political and that meant that we couldn't keep our gains. So, the problem for us was that Glenn would say: "Develop some new programs." And our tongues would hang out and we'd say: "My god, we developed a whole new college. We've got zillions of programs. We've got three programs per faculty member." You know? We need to consolidate some programs; we need to grow some programs; we need to develop; you know, we need to let some programs get bigger and stronger. When we got good stuff, we'd lose it. We couldn't hang on to it. �[Barbara] Like what? [Tinsley] Like computers. I suppose that was a real good example. [Tinsley] The deal was, initially, when I went to the college that the math department wanted to do computer science. Right at the beginning, the math department had an opportunity to hire Ken Hunter and had refused to do it. And William James had hired Ken Hunter. Ken had a genius for understanding how to teach the use of computers in business and applied context. And that's what our students wanted to learn. And he built a super program in that area. It was called Administration and Information Management. Very strong in information management. And it was very clear where the lines were. It was rational planning. Mathematics Department did computer science and students who did that went to graduate school and they became computer scientist and if you wanted to be an information managing specialist and work in business in an applied way, you went to William James. Along about the middle or end of the seventies, it became clear that we were in a gold mine; we were sitting on a gold mine. We were sitting on top and what everybody wanted to do. And the math department began to want to do it. And the math department had a lot of political power at Grand Valley. The lines were clear, you know, there was no question about what the agreements were. But there was a lot of political issues, so Don Lubbers set up a task force to look into the matter. And he hired a consultant who came and spent a couple of months on the campus one summer looking into the matter. And then he called a meeting and we all trooped into the President's office to have the meeting at which we were going to decide what was going to happen with computer science. And Don VanderJagt went in from the College of Arts and Sciences; Bruce Klein at that point was already in the College of Arts and Sciences or maybe he was with us, I can't remember this. The punchline of the story was VanderJagt trooped with the Dutch guys from Holland and this area and William James trooped in with the woman, the Jew, and the Martian. And I thought: "I think I know how this is going to turn out." In the end, you know, I suppose I should be careful putting that statement on this tape. [Barbara] Maybe you need to say that again. [Tinsley] Yes, probably… I will say that again. [Barbara] Why don't I change the shot… it's accurate, but I don't think you're really… [Inaudible]. [Tinsley] Yeah. [Barbara] Okay, let’s see. So, then William James trooped in. You can go from there. �[Tinsley] Yeah, so then William James trooped in with a fine program, but we didn't have the political clout of the people that had been at Grand Valley for a very long time and we're very close friends of Niemeyer and of Lubbers. [Tinsley] We were a smaller unit; we didn't have nearly the potential to make trouble for Lubbers that CAS had to make trouble for Lubbers. So, somehow we ended up losing out. Now the way in which we lost out was not that Don said: "I've thought about this and on the face of it the College of Arts and Sciences is a bigger unit, it has more students, it makes more sense for the program to be there." Don said: "I've thought about it and it doesn't make sense for me to prevent the College of Arts and Sciences from doing it. I'm not going to prevent them from doing it. I certainly want you to keep doing it; you're doing a wonderful job. Let many flowers bloom." And when you broke down the trade agreements and let many flowers bloom, it was very hard for William James to compete. So that's why it was very hard for us to hang onto students, because we were a smaller unit. Now you might ask me, it might be good question to say: "Why was it hard for William James to compete, you know, in an atmosphere that said 'let many flowers bloom.'" And that's the real question. Because we were smaller, because we were viewed as an alternative, because as the decade began to draw to a close, people in large numbers began to be a little afraid. Maybe they always were, but it was a little closer to the surface of their mind, they didn't want to go to a school that was weird. So, if you wanted a real straight-line thing, like computers in relation to business, and you had your choice of taking it at CAS or in William James, chances were unless you were an unusual student, you would take it at CAS. Because we really were an alternative to that. And yet it meant it was hard for us to hold onto our programs if they took equipment because we couldn't develop enough students. That was a rambling answer, but you can maybe use parts of it. [Barbara] It's blinking at me anyway. [Tinsley] Okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_29_Tinsley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tinsley, Adrian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Adrian Tinsley interview (4 of 8, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses the two administrations at Grand Valley during the time of William James College and how the college developed over time. This interview is part 4 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories College administrators Women college administrators Women in higher education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21006ae57ddf7f3e23506b884642356e.mp4 f37ac2cb1e5e843082adab1b0311588d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7e428a4e09dbdc4c76a863dedfae8083.pdf 558a57f961c0488dfb7f959fe7009be4 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley Date: 1984 Part: 5 of 8 [Barbara] It’s meant to warm up [the camera]. [Tinsley] Okay. [Barbara] Okay. We are balanced. [Tinsley] Okay. [Barbara] When you left… [Tinsley] When I left… [Barbara] Yeah. Did you think that we would…how long did you think we would survive? [Tinsley] When I left, I didn't think the college would not survive, but I thought it was problematic. And the reason I thought that is that the college was getting smaller. We were finding it more difficult to hold onto programs. I started thinking about leaving in seventy-nine, actually the end of seventy-eight, and left in the summer of nineteen eighty. And I left for two reasons. The compelling reason was I needed a rest. I needed to find out who I was when I wasn't being the Dean. If I could've gotten a year’s sabbatical, I probably would have stayed. And I discussed that with Glenn and while he was not opposed to a sabbatical, he felt that he couldn't spare the Dean for more than three months. And there was some reason to that. In any case, I decided I would simply move it on. Another thing in my thinking about that was that I did not see how Grand Valley could continue to put the kind of money into administrative salaries it was putting into to run the collegiate structure. I thought that the collegiate structure was getting marginal from a financial perspective. If you think about what it cost to have at William James, a Dean. We had – for most of our time – an Assistant Dean at least part time. We ran the Records Office – Hank Mei's operation. We put money, you know, modest amounts of money into Student Services – that was a lot of overhead. If you counted that up that was probably a hundred thousand dollars a year in the administration of William James College. We were smaller than many departments. I mean, we were twenty-two, twenty-four faculty. If I looked at Grand Valley – and you remember at Grand Valley at its peak was at six collegiate units and by the time it ended was at four – that’s a lot of salaries and �administrative overhead and that made me nervous. So, I thought that was problematic about the college's survival and I was just tired. I thought I needed to do something else. It's, you know, it was a long… I was Dean, what, eight years, I guess. And that's a number of years of working very hard and cheerleading so I needed a rest. When I left, I said to myself: "This is a window in the college’s history. Right at this moment, I perceive us as very secure, nothing is threatening us. It is time for me to leave and this is a good moment to leave," because I didn't want to close the college – that was last thing I wanted to do. And so that’s kind of why I decided to leave and when I decided to leave. [Tinsley] And at the time I decided to leave, I did not think we were in any danger, though I was well aware of what the administration of those collegiate units was costing. And I was also, by the way, well aware - and I haven't said this on this tape - you know, if you think about it, the Deans of the two alternative colleges were women. Women were pretty well represented at Grand Valley during the time I was there. But we were running the alternative colleges and I said, and I remember saying this, you know: "When we choose the next Dean, we have to choose someone who's more like them. We have to try to get this embedded in Grand Valley." So, I was not, you know, looking for another woman. I was hoping that the college would get someone who could maybe do a better job than I had of getting the college really embedded in the Grand Valley social structure. And those were my thoughts as I left. [Barbara] It occurs to me that it in your last answer, you said there were two levels of administration and you talked about Bruce Loessin. What kind of feedback did you get from the other level? [Tinsley] You mean from Glenn or from Don. [Barbara] I don't know. [Tinsley] Oh, the second… once we started reporting to Glenn, I talked about getting feedback about programs. Glenn certainly never said anything to me to suggest anything other than he supported William James and he was working very hard to understand William James. He found a lot of it incomprehensible, but I believe he did work to understand it. And I believe as long as he thought it was supportable, he worked to support it. That's not a very good answer. [Barbara] Okay, I understand. I was envisioning Lubbers. [Tinsley] Yeah. Let me talk a little bit about… you know, some question like: were there any major threats to the college or… [Barbara] Yeah, what were they? �[Tinsley] You’ll remember that towards the end of the seventies, things starting to get – financially – really tough in Michigan. And Grand Valley had to go through a retrenchment and reallocation, and I believe that happened in seventy-nine. And that was the first serious and significant threat to the college. And that one, we came out of okay. And I guess I'd like to talk a little bit about that because I don't think many colleges could handle that situation the way that we did. [Tinsley] The deans were not involved in making the decision to reduce and reallocate; that was done at the level above us. We were simply brought together and told Grand Valley was going to reduce and reallocate; that it was probably going to cut Thomas Jefferson and that we had to prepare budgets. Well let me go back because I want to get this accurate. I'm going to pick that up again. The deans were brought together and told that Grand Valley was looking at a shortfall of money that we were going to reduce and reallocate. And we were given targets. We were given, I think, three levels of targets for cutting: the deepest, the middle, and the lightest. And we were told to go home and figure out how to do that. To go home to our college. Go home, it sounds like home, we go home and figure out how we do that and come back prepared to meet those three levels of cuts. And also, to figure out where the new money would be reallocated. The family obviously didn't want to do that. I mean that is a very painful thing to do. But when I went back to William James, and I remember that afternoon because I went back on a Friday afternoon to say: "The news is we’re going to have to reduce and reallocate; here are the levels we have to shoot for." I said, "How do you want to do this? If you like, I'll just do it. If you like, you can. I am open to suggestions; we'll do this any way you want to." And the faculty… it wasn't a council meeting; it was just the faculty. We didn't take any votes, people just said: "Look Adrian, let's make a committee of people that we all agree we trust and then you guys just do it and come back and tell us what you've done, and we'll tell you if it's okay." So, a committee was made of Robert and Barry and Kathleen. The next morning at five in morning, the phone rang and my father was dead. So, he died literally the next morning. And that committee came over and we sat around my dining room table before I flew off to my father's funeral, figuring out how to do this. And then that committee just sat down and figured out, you know, what we could do and what they could live with. And we brought it back to the college and nobody fetched, and nobody screamed, nobody said: "Kill the administration." Everybody just said: "Well, you folks have done the best you could, thanks." I was really amazed. [Barbara] What percentage cut did we lose? [Tinsley] I can't remember, but it was deep. It required a retrenching. I think in the end three faculty. It was not clear if it was going to be five, four, or three, and my memory is it in the end was three now. It wasn't clear, at that point, whether the �cuts in Thomas Jefferson were going to be so deep that the college was going to die as a result. And we had one meeting that was sort of the last critical incident of my watch, as it were. We were all given to these nautical and military metaphors. But I do think of it as my watch, and it was the last critical incident, and I'm rather proud of it so I guess I want to tell it on this case. [Tinsley] The deans were all brought together in the Dean’s conference room and we simply were to go around the table and talk about how we'd like to meet the budget shortfall, and so I presented our plan, everybody did. It was very clear that the senior administrators wanted to deal with the problem by merging Thomas Jefferson and William James. And they thought that would take two units, both of whom we're getting so small that they might be marginal, and perhaps give them enough substance to be able to survive as a joint unit. I thought that would be an absolute disaster. Just an absolute disaster. I thought that although, indeed, the two of us we're both alternative colleges, and we both had women deans, that didn't mean our operating philosophy is… our ideologies as colleges were just so different. I could not see anything positive would come of that. And I knew that it rested on me to prevent that from happening right that moment. And I can remember taking a deep breath and remembering, and knowing I had to get on my feet. I had to somehow get some height in the room and to be able to speak with the kind of authority I wanted to speak with. And there was a folding blackboard in that conference room which was closed and I can remember getting up and very slowly walking to that thing, opening it up and getting a piece of chalk and beginning to draw diagrams on the blackboard. And I have no idea what I drew, but I was trying to get myself, you know, organized, to make the pitch to show how different we were. So, I drew these diagrams and delivered a little lecture about the differences between the two colleges. And maybe talked for ten minutes, you know, as compellingly as I remember going about anything. And when I finished there was a long silence. Nobody said anything for about a minute and then Doug Kindschi – and I will be grateful to him for this to this day – said: "You know, that's right. William James and Thomas Jefferson are very different and if we put them together, we'll likely lose what's good in William James." And that was it, you know, and then they passed on to other topics. So things were tense during that last… that reduction. And then, of course, there were further reductions to be had after Forrest had come on board as Dean. So [Inaudible] started getting really tough in seventy-eight and seventynine. [Barbara] And that's the… you said, plural, the threats, buts that's what they did? [Tinsley] That was the most compelling one that I had to deal with. [Barbara] What about hostility from CAS all along, did we feel it? Did you feel it? �[Tinsley] Oh sure, sure, it was a real pain. I didn't feel it from my colleagues because, you know, they weren't allowed to for one thing. And also, it was simply we were at a level where we were kind of above that. But for the faculty it was very tough because there was that constant grinding: "You're different, you're not as good. We won't play with you. We don't have to. We're traditional, we're good." And it was so ironic because our faculty was one of the finest in the country. I mean, we didn't come from Michigan, we came from all over the United States. And we had superb degrees from superb schools. And we had to put up with this kind of "Well you're not good enough for us to let you, you know." We took all of CAS's courses for credit. But CAS was always very picky. "Well, we might not take that, it might not be up to our high standards." And so that was a constant problem for us; and it's too bad. And it happens in all kinds of places that try to do this kind of thing. [Barbara] That's true. What would it have taken for us to survive? [Tinsley] Well, I don't think we could've survived. And I have really given that a lot of thought, obviously, because I've had to think: "Is there something I could have done that would've made a difference for us." And here's why I don't think we could've survived. It wasn't financial; although, as I indicated earlier, it was very expensive to have four, or five, or six different deans. That was a problem, but the reason we didn't survive wasn't because of money. And I think that was clear when Grand Valley reorganized itself into schools or colleges. They didn't leave faculty off, at that point, because the issue wasn't financial. The issue was twofold. One, and they're both important, but the first issue was Grand Valley was always fighting with itself. The problem could never be solved that the units were competitive with one another. There was no way to make them stop fighting each other. And particularly not if you're working in a political model. I often thought, if the presidential just said: "There will be no more fighting. I won't have it. The next complaint, the person will be fired." Maybe it would have stopped, although I doubt it, because it is human nature. But it would have put the central administration at a very autocratic position, saying: "CAS will do this, William James will do that, and that's the end of it. I don't want to hear any more about it.” And they didn't want to that do that. And I can't blame them. They would've come off as tyrants, and they would not have won any friends with CAS, which was much larger and more powerful a unit, just to kind of save us. But because they didn't do that, everything was in a constant state of turmoil. And Grand Valley, in the end, just couldn't afford that. We needed to pull together and put our energies outside the institution, not with constant battles inside. And I believe that's the reason that it couldn't work and that cluster colleges, in general, have a very hard time working. I think, also, and I never used to believe Bruce Loessin about this, but I think it gave Grand Valley a kind of weird image in the community. It's a very conservative community. We always used to say that William James is really lucky to be embedded in a community this conservative because it kind of… that �Grand Valley protected this, really quite radical unit, in a very conservative community. But even having the different collegiate units, in the end, was pretty hard for Grand Valley. [Tinsley] It gave it a weird reputation and it couldn't afford that. And in the end, it needed to get rid of it. So that's where I think we couldn't survive. [Barbara] Can you see that light? You're doing a good job knowing right when it ends. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_30_Tinsley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tinsley, Adrian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Adrian Tinsley interview (5 of 8, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses her experience transitioning away from William James College, the conversations surrounding combining WJC with Thomas Jefferson College, and her perspective on the college's future. This interview is part 5 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories College administrators Women college administrators Women in higher education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb6b0043b473fdc2973378dc4ed2ac99.mp4 5f271fddab80448de0ebc486388ae64a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a00bd1f1e28160b998aaa9f5aeb65626.pdf d016e24b77f01d78e6d14cf11831bdeb PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley Date: 1984 Part: 6 of 8 [Barbara] Come on, camera! There you go. Nope, not yet. Sorry. I’m still getting in there, so I don’t have your finger [in the shot] and you have an incorrect white balance. Hey, you didn’t do it! There it goes. Alright. We’re actually rolling. We can go any time. [Tinsley] Okay. [Barbara] We were talking about the legacy of the college as a partially conservative... [Tinsley] Okay. The legacy of the college… that's a really broad question. And I guess what I'd say about that is that we were very early strugglers with some things that now need to be struggled with less and are just a very normal part of the college scene. The whole issue of professional programs, for example, we struggled hard over that, both intellectually and personally within our college community. And we were dealing with professional programs, I think, long before they became such a very important feature of collegiate life. Nowadays it's a very rare student who majors in anything other than a professional program. I think we struggled with some issues around how you do liberal education in a professional program context. I think we came to some really good solutions to that issue. And that, you know, probably that hasn't filtered out as much into the larger community as I wish it would. I think there are a lot of articles to be written there, if everybody's looking for articles to write about the college. Because ninety percent of the students who go to college major in professional programs now. So, I think that's important. I think, for students, a lot of the things that we wanted to do for students and with students exist in very mainstream colleges. You know, all the way from independent study, to at least some credit no credit grading, to certainly internships, to stress on projects related to community needs. A lot of stuff that was very innovative when we did it is not particularly innovative now and is pretty much an accepted thing now. So, I think we were sort of the first wave of a lot of new stuff that was coming into higher education. That kind of legacy certainly remains; what doesn't remain is a space, you know, a local habitation in the name; a place where you can go to get something. I'm not sure I how want to put this. Where you can go, where you don't have to worry about what the meaning… I'm literally going to take this answer again. Let me think about it a second. I've talked to some of the William James faculty the last year or so, talked to Richard, to Margaret Proctor, to Barry. Barry, I think it was, �has talked in an interesting way about what it means that the William James faculty are mainstreamed now and they're part of the ordinary units at Grand Valley. And they haven't just disappeared into those units. I mean, they have begun, maybe this is grandiose, but they have begun a little bit to transform the settings that they're in. I know, you know, some of the William James faculty are doing that in the places where they are at Grand Valley. And what Barry said about that was: "Well, you know, as long as we had each other to talk to you, we didn't really have to talk to the other faculty." And we didn't very much. But the place was poorer because we didn't. And that's right. So, there is some sense in which I think Grand Valley as a whole is enriched by having William James faculty in the mainstream. It's the same argument you might have if you were talking about women's studies, you know. [Tinsley] To what extent do you want to have a special place that women can go and totally deal with their own issues and one another, and deal with women's courses? And to what extent do you want to say every course in the university should contain topics of particular relevance to women and should address its subject matter from the perspective of the new scholarship on women. What's missing is that there is no place you can go to now where you go there, and you know that all the people there share your values, and care about the same kinds of things that you care about, and want to… [Barbara] Okay, [inaudible] we'll use the rest but [inaudible]. Okay? [Tinsley] Okay. No place you can really go where you know that everybody shares your values and cares about what you care about. And I think having that space is really important to our students and to our faculty. [Barbara] Why? [Tinsley] One answer is because it was there, and it was safe, and we didn't have to create it every day. You had it. It gave you some identity. You didn't have to always be creating it at all the time. It was a place where you could go, and it gave you some identity because you shape it and it shapes you. [Barbara] But Barry said, in his interview, that… you know, he very much believes in this notion of moving out into the mainstream, and that its working, and that in his classes that he is still teaching in a Jamesian way. But he said: "Of course, I don't know how long it's going to last. I don't know how long my energy can last since it's not being infused anymore." [Tinsley] Yeah. [Barbara] Because that's what the places does. �[Tinsley] Yeah. If you concentrate the energy there and concentrate the people there, you can go deeper, and you can replenish it. And that's what's missing because the space isn't there. And I suppose all of us are looking to find some other similar kinds of space out in our lives. [Barbara] Including the students? [Tinsley] Yeah. [Barbara] Would you put this in personal terms now. What does it mean to personally spend the eight years you did, working very hard? [Tinsley] Well, I suppose… let me say what it meant to me professionally really first, rather than talking first about what it meant personally. I went from William James to the state… stop. Let me think about this another minute. I don't want to, you know, falsely romanticize the period at William James; although, I personally do believe it was a kind of Camelot. I do know that when I did go back and do administrative work, I felt very strongly that I wasn't ready to go back to another campus. I couldn't give my heart to another campus in the same way. And so, I took a job in the central office of the state university system. And two things seem important to me that I want to say. In Minnesota, I've been in a very mainstream administrative situation. I work with seven separate state universities, with their vice presidents, with their presidents, with strategic planning, with academic policy. The people in that system are very good. They are very competent, professionally. Minnesota, I would guess, is one of the very advanced states in the union, in terms of not only its support for higher education, but the professionalism with which their system is managed. And what I've learned is that, although I work with an incredibly competent professional people, professional values are not enough. The change for me was growing from a place where, I mean heaven knows we did want to be competent, but there was a real value beyond competence. There was a reason you wanted to be competent. There was a reason you were doing what you were doing. So, by the contrast that existed at William James, simply, the value of professional competence is not enough. It doesn't keep you warm at night. It's too thin. I'm on my way to go to Glassboro State College in New Jersey and I 'm now ready to be back on the campus, and I am just really excited about going back to campus, and, you know, and having a substantial leadership and management role on a new campus now. But here's what I asked myself: I say, at William James, everybody knew the meaning of what they were doing, so you could stand up and so recite the litany, or you could have an external person to come in and recite the litany and say this is what's important about what we're doing, this is why it's important to work this hard, and this is why we're not cynical. Because here's why we're doing what we're doing, and we really care about it. I go to �Glassboro and I say, you know, what does the vice president do? The vice president has got to find that thing that the institution is doing that's important and put that in the public space and say: "This is what we're doing, and this is important, and it's important that we're doing it and we're doing it well." And I don't find it really easy to look at a Glassboro or at the state colleges in Minnesota and say: "Here's what I can say about that. Here's why it's important in the mid nineteen-eighties to be doing this." And I think that's a problem that we are dealing with in higher education. It's hard to talk about why we're doing what we're doing and why it's so important. And it's hard to get that into the public space. [Tinsley] I remember when the colleges were about to be dissolved, and Robert said: "The problem is that it's not that I don't want to work in CAS, I mean all those people are fine, but I've got to have something I can believe in. I just can't work with people who are cynical or who are apathetic." And so, what I'm saying is there was no cynicism, or very little, or little apathy at William James. And how do you find in a mainstream institution… how do you find, sort of, what you hang your hat on for the meaning of it. And I think that's the question that we answered at William James. And that's the question I want to try to answer now at a more mainstream institution. I don't think finding that answers is going to be just real, real easy. [Barbara] This is going off from that answer what we thought was important in James and the reason that we would be energizing and uniting the kind of notions that we had. Were they specific to the time? Are they not specific now? Why can't you just take those notions to your new job? [Tinsley] No, they're not; they are specific to the time and let me talk a little bit about that because I have thought a lot about this and I really believe it. In the midseventies, the agenda of the society was access and new opportunities. And it was very important to open higher education up to women, and black people, and minorities of all kinds, and older students, and people that hadn't been to college before. And we put a lot of stress on that. And William James came out of that milieu and that was very important to us. That is not a value in nineteen eighty-five. In nineteen eighty-five, we talk about quality which is – depending on how you look at it – is either a positive or negative from my perspective. I think there is some genuinely good work being done under the rubric of upgrading quality, but there's also some genuinely reactionary stuff being done under that rubric. And the agenda for the institution is the economic development of its region, science, and technology. The issues that the institutions are dealing with are very different. In the mid-seventies, we had the federal government really pushing access, really putting money into social services. Now we have science, and math, and technology. I think there's no reason that we can't relate to this �new agenda. But we haven't really thought about what it means for the values we had in the seventies. So, I think the times are very, very different. And I think that's why it's hard to find the spine of the institution in the eighties. I mean that's what I learned from dealing with seven mainstream institutions in Minnesota and the state legislature. [Barbara] Because my experience… I'm blinking again. My experience… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_31_Tinsley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tinsley, Adrian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Adrian Tinsley interview (6 of 8, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses the legacy of William James College and the importance of having a community with shared values, in addition to the importance of keeping the William James philosophy alive. This interview is part 6 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education College administrators Women college administrators Women in higher education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4082a53062701be1ef0f139a40d64be7.mp4 6bf51067c429ce5698da83268a6142b9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2126441a7c7ddbae8e0ccd5ab59d2336.pdf 3bf07d5bad3b1264044f6441d7f2d581 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley Date: 1984 Part: 7 of 8 [Barbara] Oh, I always ask you to do it when the cameras are warming up. [Tinsley] Alright. Okay, let’s see a piece of white paper in front of my… [Barbara] Okay, it’s all wound up. It's not in really great shape, truth be told. I kept it, though, for some reason… must have something I'm supposed to do. [Tinsley] Yeah, you’re supposed to tell them how to allocate your TIAA and your CREF. [Barbara] Oh yes, I think I'll just let it set. Thank you. I didn't really plan on that saving me anyway. Alright, we are almost good. Best thing about your experience at James? Is that a meaningful question? [Tinsley] Oh, I think it is. It's like a psych quiz question, but, yeah, the best thing about it is that it had meaning – it really had meaning – and it was important. You felt like you were using your life for something useful. I've always liked Marge Piercy's poem "To Be of Use." And you felt like, at James, you weren't just treading water, you were doing something very, very useful. And that was the best thing about it. And you were also doing it in the company of like-minded people who were friends, and intimates, and you really had a family that you were doing it with. So, I think those two things were the best. We weren't the only institution that was doing this; there were other colleges like us. FIPSE, the grantmaking agency in Washington, was very much like us. A lot of little enclaves of people doing this kind of work and it seemed real and important. [Barbara] If you… [Tinsley] And it was! Sorry. [Barbara] I'm being a bad interviewer. I'm really listening to you. I am listening to you, but I was thinking of the next question. Which is: if you had to sum up the nature of William James College in just one sentence, what would it be? [Tinsley] Well, I actually frequently did have to sum up the nature of William James College in just one sentence for a variety of public relations and mission definition purposes. But I don't remember any of the sentences and I'm sure �none of them were very real. William James was a place where people talked about real things and did real work, and really loved each other. [Barbara] No two people have said anything resembling the same thing. They just go with the strength of the college and its weakness. And no one has said “synoptic” either. [Laughter] [Barbara] Okay, there is one question around in my head and it’s something that I wrote down in the beginning. It has to do with power, and you sort of talked about it when you talked about CAS and all that sort of stuff. Couldn't have we been more political? Even though we were small, dammit, some small things survive because they are so political, because they do their own PR so as well. Do you have any feelings about that? [Tinsley] Well, let me think about it. I am myself a structuralist, and I believe the structure of Grand Valley – not the structure of William James – worked against us. In the back of my head is the nagging thought: "Suppose we really had been more like them?" Because I don't think you can fudge that, because you can't go around pretending to be like somebody when you're really not. Suppose we're really more like them, and our values, and what we want to do, but our values were sort of more like theirs, would it have helped? My honest answer is no, it probably wouldn't have. Because, structurally, we just had a very difficult situation to deal with. But that's from my perspective. I sure did everything I could. And so, you know, maybe it's in my interest to not be able to think of anything else that could have happened. [Barbara] Richard talks about a siege mentality being very useful to us, energizing us. To go out more would have destroyed some of the energy that helped us work as well together as we did. [Tinsley] Yeah, I don't think going out more on the Grand Valley campus would've helped us a lot. I really don't. Because it would've been that painful work of trying to make friends with CAS. And they didn't really want… it takes two to make friends, it really does. If we would've been able to get outside into the local community even more than we did – and we did a lot – that might have helped. [Barbara] Do you want to do it again, quickly, the story about… the story happened because you were talking about how we could not… how this could not work, how we were at a disadvantage. One example was losing computers, and you made that bit by the anecdote of the day we lost computers. And if you want to retell it using euphemisms, fine by me. [Laughter] [Tinsley] [Laughter] I don't think so, the point of the story comes from the cast of �characters. But I will trust you not to use it on the tape. [Barbara] What about first part, when you talk about them being from Holland? Is that okay? [Tinsley] I think. [Barbara] I think so, too. [Tinsley] I think it’s okay. [Barbara] Is there anything to say here? [Inaudible] [Tinsley] Oh golly, well there probably is, but I can't think of it at moment. [Barbara] It’s tiring at this point. [Tinsley] It is, it is tiring. No, I mean I would like to talk on about it for another ten hours, but I don't have anything in particular at the moment. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_32_Tinsley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tinsley, Adrian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Adrian Tinsley interview (7 of 8, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses the highlights of her experience at William James College and the overall nature of the college consisting of community and conversation. This interview is part 7 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education College administrators Women college administrators Women in higher education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eaf285fef8bbaaa63efe8e2f5de2cc8e.mp4 f65a858fd0951d1719f16ccf0f662757 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7f3e58bdae16743c8c0999882c013395.pdf 81d5000bf6060fa85b01d69f5c221445 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley Date: 1984 Part: 8 of 8 [Barbara] The question is: what is the quality of the education that we were giving students? [Tinsley] Okay, ready for me to go on that? [Barbara] Yep, anytime. [Tinsley] Okay. The issue of quality was a real one during the life of the college. I think looking back, I would have to say that the quality of what we did was variable. For the good students, what we gave them was breathtakingly good, I think. We gave them access to superb faculty. We gave them access to sort of a panoply of resources that they would not have gotten in a conventional undergraduate education. The students that were less good could skate and that was a problem – and I think we did have some students skate. It seems to me that the issue of quality was very tied into the real ethos in the college on individual energy and individual rights. I think the college always leaned towards wanting the individual to express himself or herself. It was difficult in the college to get a clear sense of institutional norms; at least, those norms could not be imposed easily by administrators. They needed to develop in kind of a more organic fashion and I think that was a problem sometimes. For example, in terms of our beliefs about appropriate curriculum, appropriate grading standards, and the like. As the years went on, I think we had a lot more homogeneity about those things. But part of what I did as Dean was endlessly negotiate with faculty. There was no sense that I had any divine right to set standards or, indeed, to set policy. It was a matter of endless negotiation in a milieu where, as I said earlier, the ethos was on the individual's right rather than the institution’s necessity. Looking back, I guess, as Dean of the College, if there is an area where I should have paid more attention, it is… no, let me stop that and you come back to this, okay. [Barbara] Let me change the shot, then you can do it. That's fine. [Tinsley] As the college matured, we began to get a curriculum we were pretty comfortable with. I think there were still, probably, some issues around supervision of internships and independent studies. There were still some course titles that remained as symbolic battles between the faculty and the administration. I think in another two, three, four years we would probably have been on a cycle of �independent curricular reviews with outside consultants. In the end, in terms of the curriculum itself, I felt very good about it. I felt it was a strong curriculum. In terms of the standards of the college, in terms of what happened to individual students, I think we probably always let students skate a bit too much. I think we paid for that very heavily. [Barbara] Say that last sentence again because I screwed up. So just the last sentence: "In the end..." is a good time to start. [Tinsley] In the end… about the curriculum? [Barbara] No, just in the end about individual students. [Tinsley] In the end, I think we always erred a bit on the side of putting out a hand to individual students to help them through. And sometimes, in some places in the college, we did that too much; we weren't tough enough. We paid for that, I think, very, very heavily. That's something I won't do again; it was too costly for the college. [Barbara] Finito? [Tinsley] Finito. [Barbara] Good. [Tinsley] I guess the last thing I'd like to say about the college – after having done some thinking about it in connection with this taping – seems to me that most of us, or all of us, brought to the college a desire that our work have real meaning; that our work bring meaning into our lives; that our work perhaps be the significant source of meaning in our lives. We wanted a kind of a texture in our work; a kind of depth in our work. Clearly not some kind of situation where we did our work and did home in our real lives outside of work. Our real lives – our most important lives – were in our work in the college. Sometimes this provided some stress and strain. We made demands that our work give meaning that I think aren't very unusual in American work life. And I think for most of us, the experience of having the college no longer present is that it's forced us to say: "In whatever work life I'm in now, how can I make it have that kind of meaning for me?" That's certainly true for me. One of the things that is very interesting to me as I look at what the faculty are doing now – and because of my position, I knew the faculty better than I knew most students – it seems to me that there's almost a little explosion of good work going on: research, writing, work products coming out of people that were on the William James faculty or interesting jobs. Almost as if some of our energy that was being used to make the college work is going right into creative work products. And I see that as coming out of this desire to find �meaning in one's work that I think is so important and that I think was really critical to us at the college. Sorry I trailed off on that. [Barbara] [Laughter] I'm tempted, I won't do it, I'm tempted… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_33_Tinsley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tinsley, Adrian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Adrian Tinsley interview (8 of 8, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses the quality of education at William James College and how the experience brought meaning to the lives of those involved. This interview is part 8 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education College administrators Women college administrators Women in higher education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a360b4c983fa0c1911372595fccd225d.mp4 6a7951a4424cfc185c87591ca8064798 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/957ad7dd46d830fbc3196e9a24d5c71b.pdf 94df28085d5b0a4e704f9473c11949d5 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW BERNICE TIPTON Born: January 3rd, 1924 in Springville, Utah Resides: Ionia, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project Transcribed by: Claire Herhold, January 10, 2013 Interviewer: Mrs. Tipton, can you start by telling us a little bit about your background. To start with, where and when were you born? I was born in Springville, Utah on January 3rd, 1924. Interviewer: Did you grow up in Utah? Yes, I went through school there and part of my college was there, Utah State and Brigham Young. Interviewer: And what did your family do in those days? In the beginning of my life, my father was a blacksmith and then he went to work for road contractors and became a master mechanic. When I was growing up we often spent time in road camps, on dirt floors and in tents and he did some blacksmithing there because they used horses in order to build the roads. 1:06 Later, as trucks and so forth came in, he became a master mechanic. Interviewer: But was he able to keep his job through the thirties? Yes. We didn’t have a lot of money, but he did work all through that time. We had to watch our pennies but we didn’t have hard times like some people did. Interviewer: How many children were in the family? Well, there’s three daughters. One is ten years younger than I am, the other is twenty four years younger than I am, so it was three families. �Interviewer: So, when you started out anyways, it was just you and your parents and then eventually…? Yes, until I was ten years old. Interviewer: And then where did you actually go to school, if you’re moving around or that kind of thing? Well, I went through high school in Springville, Utah. 2:02 Interviewer: How big a town was that? About five thousand. Interviewer: So you could have a decent sized high school and that kind of thing? Oh yes. It was 105 in my graduating class. Interviewer: Alright. And you were still in school then when Pearl Harbor happened? When Pearl Harbor happened, yes, I was a senior in high school. Interviewer: And do you remember when you first heard about that? Yes. I was a student director of a school play, and it was Sunday and we were going to have…we were going to practice for the play, about noon. Someone brought a radio with them and we heard about Pearl Harbor. Interviewer: Now, before that happened, had you been paying much attention to what was going on in the world? There was a war going on in Europe and that kind of thing? Oh yes, we had that in high school classes. 3:00 Interviewer: And did you know people who were already going off and joining the army or being drafted in ’41 before that? You bet. Many, many, many people. �Interviewer: Did it occur to you when the war started that you might actually have an opportunity to get involved in it? Well, since the women were … started becoming part of the military, that was in 1920…that was in 1942 and that’s when I graduated from high school. So that was a new, new situation in the army. Interviewer: Before you joined the WACs, you went to college for a while first? Yes, I had a year and a half of college before I went into the service. We couldn’t go in ‘til we were twenty years old. Interviewer: So were you just waiting until you could join at that point? No, I had no idea I was going in. Two of my friends had set up an interview, and they invited me to join. 4:03 And I did. But this was for the Air WACs that they were interested in. They both had brothers in the service. Of course, I knew those brothers well. So I did join with them to hear the recruiter. Interviewer: So how did the recruiter describe the Air WACs or why was that particularly interesting to you? Well, everything was new in the service at that time. This was 1944. The WACs had only been in existence for two years. I went in shortly after the “auxiliary” was dropped. At first it was the WAAC, and right after they dropped it to WAC, was when I decided to see what they had to offer. 5:00 Interviewer: Now, as far as you could tell, was there a difference between it being an auxiliary corps and just “Women’s Army Corps?” Was it more military now? I think it was about the same. It was just that they didn’t want to be an auxiliary any more. Interviewer: Just a recognition that they were doing something important. �Right. Interviewer: Now, did you have any idea what sort of work you might be doing for them when you signed up? Well, of course we had quite an interview, and they knew what I was capable of doing. No, I did not know exactly…there wasn’t any of us knew exactly what we would be doing. Interviewer: In the interview, what kind of things did they want to know? Just how much schooling you had? Yes, and where we had worked, if we had worked before. I’d had quite a bit of office training, both in college and high school, and I had worked in some offices besides. 6:04 Interviewer: So there was some stuff they would be able to use? Yes. Interviewer: Where did they send you for training? I went to Des Moines, Iowa. To Fort Des Moines, it was, which was a military base there. Interviewer: What did your training consist of? This was in January so when we arrived it was very cold and the snow was very deep. We weren’t very impressed. Fort Des Moines was a very old fort, so most of the buildings were brick. Ours was just a wooden barracks. 7:01 We trained in military history, in military manners, how we should treat officers and so on. All that sort of thing. We marched a lot. We had to know how to fold our clothes in our foot lockers, how to make our beds so that the dime would plop up. And we scrubbed floors and we did windows. You know, it was zero weather outside. We marched and marched and marched. That wasn’t too hard for me because I’d been in marching band for about five years, so that helped. Interviewer: Did they have much other physical training or just the marching? �All the physical training we could do under the conditions of the weather. 8:01 We were supposed to go through training with gas masks, but they had to put that off because it was so cold. They couldn’t continue with that, but it didn’t matter anyways because we weren’t going overseas. That was kind of a joke anyways. Interviewer: What kind of people were training you? Did you have drill sergeants? Oh yes. And there were WACs. This was strictly army. This so far was just the army training. Interviewer: And about how long did that phase last? I think it was six weeks. Interviewer: And then, having completed that, did you get more specialized training or did they just send you to a base? No, from there we got our orders to go to an air field, yes. Interviewer: Now were all the women you were training with, were they all training for the Womens Air Corps or were they going all over the place? 9:06 No, it was mixed. Interviewer: So you all get the same basic training and then they move you out from there? Right. Interviewer: Where did they send you then for your assignment? I was…I think God answered our prayers. I was sent to Barksdale Field in Shreveport, Louisiana. The difference between Barksdale, getting off the train…we always went by train. Getting off at Barksdale and being in Des Moines in February was very different. We saw green grass, flowers blooming, trees, and it was quite a shock. Barksdale is a very old base. I shouldn’t say that. Barksdale was a new base after World War I, they built it. 10:01 I can tell you a little bit more about it here. The government after WWI bought twenty six thousand acres �of cotton plantation and they built this air field. It was dedicated in 1933. And it was named after a WWI pilot. When we arrived it was part of the third air force, and it was used to train B26 crews. Later, they expanded the runways to accommodate 29s. And in 1944 an MP training unit with their dogs moved in. And also a chemical, you know, moved into it. The main buildings, including the headquarters and the housing for officers and enlisted were French colonial, and made of brick and stone. 11:10 The halls and stairways in the headquarters building were marble and this was a permanent base and it’s still used today. I have a grandson in the Air Corps and he has been stationed there on and off, so they’re still using that field today. Interviewer: Did they have the WACs in separate quarters or a separate part of the base? The WAC barracks were built about a mile from the front gate, off in the middle of a bare field. There weren’t any trees, there were no bushes or shrubs. They were just wood buildings which was quite a contrast to the other buildings. They had us located out in this field and there was one road that went around it. 12:04 There was two barracks, a mess hall and an office building. They weren’t used to women being in the service and they didn’t know what to do with us. The rules were very strict. Our day room was used for PT in bad weather, and our mess hall was the favorite place for officers to eat because our food was better. They all got the same food but our cooks knew what to do with it, so they liked to come to dinner. I might say here, that it was later when I realized, and knew the comparison with the way they treated us and the way they treated the blacks at that time. We were isolated. So were they. They couldn’t be in the same place. 13:02 They had their own PX and we had…we could go to the big PX, they couldn’t, but we also had our own PX where we could buy most of the things we needed. They weren’t allowed to go into the movies in the big movie building which was air conditioned. We could do that but �they couldn’t. But …they didn’t know what to do with us I don’t think. Our rules were very strict. We rode a little trolley to work even. It was placed out that far, so it was different. Interviewer: Now what kind of work did you do? I was assigned to the statistical section. I said, “I can’t even say it, let alone work there.” And I became a statistical clerk typist, typing… I was a fairly good typist so that didn’t surprise me any. 14:07 And it was in the headquarters building where we had the marble floors and the marble stairways. One of our jobs was the daily strength report. It was classified material and it showed exactly how many men were on the base, how many was on leave, and how many were in the hospital; how many cooks, drivers, pilots and so forth could be located so that in a very short time they could find whomever they needed. These were long reports, and it was before electric typewriters or computers and so forth. We got stencils and used the old typewriters that you had to throw back. 15:00 We had two civilians working in the office and they wouldn’t work on weekends so we had to. That was fine with us, that’s what we were there for. We were told, and I didn’t say this at the beginning, but we were told that we were to relieve men from their jobs so they could go overseas. Well, it didn’t take us long to find out that most of those men did not want to be relieved from their jobs, and they weren’t too happy with us. Interviewer: Now when you came to that base were you sort of the first group of women to go in there? No, it was…they were established. There were quite a few women there by that time. A lot of them had just been pulled from the WACs into the Air Corps because that was the new designation. Interviewer: But there were still men around who were getting replaced by women or were just afraid of being replaced by women? 16:05 �Oh yes, that continued throughout the war I think. Interviewer: About how many WACs were on the base do you think? Oh my. Interviewer: Well, how big was the barracks, I guess? Well, there were two barracks, two story. Typical. I don’t know how many people they held. I would say, there might have been 75 to 100…not 100…probably about 75. Interviewer: And were the barracks set up like men’s barracks, just a big open dormitory with a bunch of cots? Yes, you bet. Yes, sir. With one bathroom downstairs with showers. Just like the men. We had bunk beds just like the men. A foot locker. And a place to hang our clothes. That was it. 17:01 Interviewer: And the office you were working in, about how many people were working in there with you, do you think? In my office? There were two of us WACs, one civilian girl, two officers, and I think two other enlisted men. Interviewer: And did you work with pretty much the same group of people the whole time you were there? Yes, as long as I was there. I was there thirteen months. Interviewer: And from there, were you paying a lot of attention to what was happening in the war or with the air corps or things like that, or did you just focus? No. We knew what was happening. We were training these men to be, like I said, B26 pilots…or not pilots, these were crews that came in and were trained just before they went overseas. �Interviewer: Was this a place where all of the crews for an aircraft would get together and work together? 18:02 Right, take their training. Interviewer: Did you have much contact at all with the men who were being trained, or did they keep you away from them? Well some of the women did. It depended on your job. My job did not…I did not come into contact with them because it more on the base. But some of the women did. We had women in weather, and photography, and drivers of trucks and…they did just about everything. Interviewer: And what kind of backgrounds did these women have? Were they from all over the place? Oh all over the United States, all ages. I mean…it was interesting, the base commander did not believe in women being in the service, like most of these men did at the time. 19:05 And when he found he was going to have a WAC secretary he was… “no way.” Well, then they told him he had to have a WAC driver, well that was terrible. It ended up that his secretary was wonderful. She’d had a lot of experience. She even made sure that he was dressed correctly, and so on when he went out, and when he had his coffee and the whole works. And he wouldn’t have anyone else. Then he found out that this driver was excellent, and no way was he going to have a man replace her then. We were all very pleased that these gals could turn his ideas around and find out that women could do some of these jobs and do them well. 20:00 Interviewer: And was this something that you thought much about, or talked much about? The idea that you were kind of being pioneers and doing new things that women hadn’t done before? Or were you just doing your job then? �We were aware of the way people felt about it. They saw us in uniform and many of them just wanted to ignore us. We had people who were very kind at times. When we’d go out to dinner they would pay the whole check, be very kind and thank us. But we mostly…the women in uniform…people weren’t too pleased about women being in uniform. We were supposed to be ladies. That was part of our training at basic training, was do not draw attention to yourself. 21:00 Well, this was impossible. The uniform itself drew attention. And so anything you did, it didn’t matter if you dropped a fork on the floor, you were drawing attention because you had on the uniform. But we had to make sure that we were ladies. We didn’t cross our legs like I’m doing now. You crossed them at the ankles when you sat down. Things like that. And most of these women were wonderful. They were there to do a job. Many of them, some of them had husbands, brothers in the service. They were hard workers. You always find a few that, you know, well, ruin the reputation of the rest. But these were wonderful women. I had some very good friends. Interviewer: Did you pay much attention to publicity about women in the armed forces? Or the stuff that would show up in the popular media, like magazines or news reels and stuff? 22:07 Did you see yourself in those things or notice what was being said or written about you? Not a lot. There really wasn’t, I don’t think, a lot. It was just a negative feeling wherever we went. Interviewer: How often did you get to off the base? Would you go into Shreveport or that kind of thing? �We worked on weekends, but we’d have a day off, yes. We didn’t go in a lot. We managed to keep pretty busy and…There was something I was going to tell you and now I can’t remember what it was. Interviewer: If you do go in, how did you get in town? Was there a shuttle or a bus or did you get a Jeep or what did you do? Oh, you’d go in on bus all the time. 23:03 I didn’t tell you too much about our clothing that was issued to us when we first went in, which I think is quite important because a lot of people don’t know. We had to send everything, all of our civilian clothing went back home. They sent it all back home. We had ten cotton underclothes, ok. And cotton stockings for work. We only had one pair of silk stockings and nylons…you couldn’t get nylons. Our underpants were longlegged and we were issued sleeveless vests of cotton to wear over our own bras. They gave us summer and winter clothing which included skirts below the knees. 24:03 Shirts and blouses, blouses were jackets, and ties. There was a winter dress with long sleeves, winter overcoat, and an all-season utility coat. Our shoes were brown, medium-heeled oxfords. We had a pair of KP boots, which, the boots came just above the ankle. For PT we wore striped seersucker shirtwaist dresses with bloomers underneath, and these were the kind of bloomers with elastic around the legs. The summer clothes were khaki tan, and the winter was olive green, olive drab or green. We had pajamas but no robes. Nothing fit us right, and we all looked like something out of World War I. 25:02 We were not to draw too much attention to ourselves, and like I said, but we did because of the uniforms that we had. And we…when I first went in, we wore what we called “hobby hats” and I have a picture there for you later. These were like a pillbox with a brim in front. And they had to fit very tight because when the wind hit that brim they would go flying. And they had to fit so tight, they gave us all headaches. So it wasn’t until about, oh six months �later after I went in they finally gave us hats like the nurses wore so we looked different and felt much better. But we were to have that uniform on, even though we went home for furlough, we weren’t supposed to take it off. 26:01 Of course, some of us cheated just a little bit then, but…. Interviewer: But you’d wear it when you were traveling though? Absolutely. We weren’t supposed to be out of uniform at all, not in civilian clothes at all. Interviewer: Did they have regulations about how long you wore your hair or things like that? Oh yes. Immediately, before I even enlisted, I got my hair cut short. It couldn’t be on your collar. I often, later on…at first I had it cut short with a permanent and then I wore it in braids so that I could have it a little bit longer, but it had to be off the collar. Interviewer: Because I think the WASPs, the Women’s Auxiliary Pilots Corps, they actually were supposed to have their hair longer, that there were regulations about that, that all the different versions of how much do you make them look like girls or something like that. Ok. No, they were very strict about that. 27:02 Interviewer: What other aspects about the experience that you had down in Louisiana kind of stand out for you? Have you got particular incidents or things…? We had to stand retreat every Friday, the WAC company had to stand retreat, which meant that we went out on the parade field at five something, I think it was 5 o’clock, and march, and stand retreat while the band played the “Star Spangled Banner” and the flag came down, and so on. This was hard to do in the summer, because in the summer it gets very hot down there and you had to be in full uniform with tie and blouse and everything on. And there were many people passing out on the parade field at that time. You just let them pass out. 28:03 No one do �anything about it. Just kind of step over them as you marched off. But that was very interesting, but very nice. I came from a very patriotic family and so the patriotism there really showed and I enjoyed that, even though I almost passed out once in a while. Interviewer: Would somebody eventually pick up the people who passed out or help them get up? Eventually, or they’d come to and get up or something. Interviewer: And so you’re there basically for thirteen months, so you’re getting into early 1945 at that point. Now did you get a furlough in there some place or did you get a furlough in between assignments? Yes, get a furlough about every six months, usually unless there was something happening that you couldn’t. Interviewer: Were there ever emergency moments on the base or unusual things happening that interrupted the routine? Or could you pretty much follow the same routine the whole time? 29:11 At that field, it was pretty routine. I can’t remember of anything happening. See, this was before VE-day and so on. Interviewer: And then after the thirteen months in Louisiana, then were do you go next? I was having trouble with sinus down in Louisiana, and there was a military police company on our base with their dogs…incidentally, we used to watch them train dogs…that was going to be transferred to Buckley Field in Denver, Colorado. 30:03 And of course, that’s high altitude and I knew that the sinus wouldn’t be so bad so I asked if I might be transferred with them. And I got the ok, but I couldn’t work in statistics because their statistical section was filled up, so they assigned me to their classification unit, and I transferred with them to Buckley Field, Colorado. �And what a difference that was. This was really a shock. Buckley was located about fifteen miles east of Denver, in the middle of wheat fields and sagebrush and here I came from a permanent base in Louisiana. No trees, no landscaping. The buildings were all frame with tar paper on the outside. 31:01 It was a temporary base. We ate at the hospital. We lived in the barracks close by. We were on temporary duty from there. We were assigned to Lowry Field which was in a little closer to Denver. There wasn’t any officers, we didn’t have officers over us. There were only about five WACs on the base and they worked in the hospital. They were giving us a barracks close by the hospital. So different. We weren’t isolated. It was just a different way of life. Well, while I was there, VE-Day, Victory in Europe, was May 7, 1945, but we didn’t do any celebrating. We just kind of made a sigh of relief and went on working. That was the way we celebrated that. 32:04 Our job in classification was mostly record-keeping and testing, we did testing. We used a card called the Form 20 that had the history of each military person on it. We could tell what he or she did as a civilian, how much schooling they had, what their health was, and every job they had while they were in the military, so in seconds the entire army and civilian background of any military person on base could be checked, and they could be placed where they could do the most good for the war effort. Interviewer: So then, were you processing new recruits who were training on the base so they could go somewhere else? Or you were just collecting the information, just working with the information they already had? 33:02 Well, this card went with them wherever they went, ok? We didn’t have new military on there. It ended up after the war came to an end that we were getting people from overseas. We kept them until they could go to a place to be discharged. So ours was mostly just record-keeping, but we did do some testing, IQ-testing and so on. While I was there I was offered the opportunity to �go to Maxwell Field in Montgomery, Alabama for special training, which I did. It was a month’s training, in classification. I came back then as a classification specialist, so I had a different MOS and at that time I was also promoted to buck sergeant. 34:06 So, I was back in the South again when I went to Alabama, but it didn’t last very long. Interviewer: When you were in Colorado, you said you changed bases, you went from Buckley into Lowry at the end, or did you just stay in Buckley the whole time? No, we stayed in Buckley. Interviewer: Now, with only a small number of WACs on the base, did you have a lot more contact with male personnel or were you still isolated pretty well from everybody? Well, we…for a while, we still worked in base headquarters, so we had contact with personnel coming in and we were the ones that told them where they could go. When the war was over and they started bringing all these men in from overseas, that was quite a deal because these men came in and we’d ask them what they’d prefer to do… 35:13 Well, they all either wanted to drive trucks or go home. We couldn’t send them home. They were there to wait until they could be sent to a discharge place. And there wasn’t that many trucks, so many of them were assigned to very odd jobs around the base. Some of them weren’t very happy, but you could only do so much. Interviewer: I’ve interviewed quite a few men who talk about coming back from overseas and having to sit around for a while on a base or sometimes they’d have a lot left on their enlistments and didn’t have anything really that they were supposed to do, so it was your job to help figure what to do with them. We assigned so many to our office that we didn’t have desks for them, so we had to double up on desks. 36:08 My husband happened to be assigned to my desk. That’s where I met him, and he �had an awful attitude, but we won’t go into that. But these men, they couldn’t understand why we couldn’t give them decent jobs but you’ve only got so many things you can do, so they just blamed classification. And my MOS was frozen and so when a lot of the women went back home and were discharged, I couldn’t get out of the service for a while until we got through this group of people coming back from overseas. Interviewer: One of the things that happened at the end of the war was that there was sort of a general push to make room for the men returning. 37:01 Were some of them coming in and replacing women in some of the jobs with the air forces or … I guess, there wasn’t anyone to replace you for a while, but were some of the other women being replaced by men or…? Well, I’ll tell you, they even brought women recruiters in for a while, but they went out fairly fast too because they didn’t have MOSs that were frozen. No, actually, the army was trying to downgrade and get rid of a lot of people at that time. Interviewer: Men and women, so everybody could get smaller at that point. Tried to get them out as fast as we could. Interviewer: Did you ever go off the base much when you were in Colorado or did you just stay where you were? Some, but it was quite a ways into Denver so we didn’t go off and we had to ride a bus in. 38:04 Didn’t go off…and we were worked…Men and I worked until 12 o’clock at night. We didn’t get paid overtime or anything like that. Interviewer: What did you get paid anyways? What would a buck sergeant make? I can’t remember what it was at the end, but at the beginning I did put that down here. My pay at the beginning was $21 a month for four months, and then it would go up to $30 and it stayed �there. I don’t think I ever made over one hundred, it seems like it was around ninety. So we were paid low, I mean, we had low pay but… Interviewer: Now were there many things you had to buy for yourselves that maybe men wouldn’t have to buy? How far did thirty dollars a months go if you’re in the army? You didn’t save a lot. 39:00 It went quite a ways because we didn’t have to buy clothing. Well, we did some. The shoes didn’t fit right, but they still had to be brown oxfords and so on. And you didn’t have to buy food. Some of the recreation you had, so … I never went in debt, we’ll put it that way. But I didn’t save a lot either. Interviewer: But I guess, in a way for you, because of the job you had, ending the war actually made you maybe busier because you had all those men to process who were coming through? Yes it did in that particular job, yes. But we were always busy because there was always men, people that had to be placed into jobs and so on, and testing. 40:04 There was a lot of testing going on. Interviewer: What had your husband done in the military? What had he done before he showed up in Lowry? My husband was a gunner on a B17, served 35 missions off Italy. They bombed into Germany, and northern Italy and so on and so forth. Interviewer: But he was fortunate enough to make it through 35 missions and come home. He made it through. It’s very interesting, we went to some…oh what do I want to say?…reunion type deals and I learned a lot and every year these stories that came back got bigger and bigger, but he was able to get together with his crew, so I got to know his crew and so on. He was also �recalled for the Korean War, and my training in service, of course we were married then, helped very much being a military wife in the Korean War. 41:15 That worked out good. Interviewer: So then, you’re discharged then early in ’46, so you spend about two years there. Yes, February ’46. Interviewer: Now had you gotten married yet, or did you get married after you’d both been discharged? No, we got married afterwards. He was from Nebraska. So, we married and then we both went back to college and graduated from the University of Nebraska. Interviewer: And what did you get your degree in? Education. Interviewer: And then did you work as a teacher then after that, or...? We moved around a good deal. Part of that was in the service, and he went to work for Exxon in marketing and when I moved here was my thirty third move. 42:05 Marketing kept us busy. I think we lived in about fifteen different states. That’s when I said to you that I wasn’t from this area, although one of those moves was to Battle Creek. I said I’d never move back to Michigan. Here I am. Never say never. Interviewer: So how did you wind up in Michigan? My son is here. And at this age, I needed to be close to someone in the family. I came here from Tennessee. Interviewer: Alright, if you look back on the time that you spent in the service, how do you think that affected you, or what did you learn from that? �I’ve never regretted my time in the service. Like I said at the beginning…am I going too far?... Like I said in the beginning, we couldn’t go in ‘til we were twenty. 43:07 We couldn’t go in unless…at twenty, you had to have your parents consent. My dad said that if he ever had a son, he would send him into the army because he thought that the discipline was so good. Well, he didn’t have a son, so I kind of figured I guess it’s up to me. So he was perfectly willing. My mother said if she was younger, she’d go with me, and like I said before my father had been in World War I. This was a patriotic family. I was raised that way. I never regretted my time in the service. I learned a lot. It was a different way of living. 44:01 It was the first time I’d been away from my family…well, I won’t say that because I’d gone to college for a little bit, but, you know, you could get home then if you had to. I met a lot of wonderful friends, some of whom I’m still in contact with, and it has been great. And I really appreciate…I appreciate people now starting to recognize the fact that the women did have a part in it, because we went a long time without any recognition. Interviewer: But it’s pretty much standard in the histories these days to recognize how many women went in and how many different kinds of things they were going and doing. In the meantime, now we’ve got your story and this is one where people will be able to see you telling about where you went and what you did, and that’s on a permanent record. 45:04 Well, I appreciate … about two years ago was the first I time I felt like I got a real recognition, and I got a nice thank you letter from the young Marines in Tennessee, so that made me feel good, and then not long ago, and I’ll show you my things here, I had a lady who’d been a lieutenant colonel in the service, a young lady who had retired, they retire young nowadays, who asked me if I was in the women’s memorial for military women in Washington, D.C. I told her �no, so she said she’d like to sponsor me, so I am now there too. 46:00 My family was there in Washington, D.C. about two months ago and they looked my record up there and said it’s there, so… Interviewer: Well, I’d just to thank you for taking the time to talk to me today and tell your story. Well, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TiptonB Title A name given to the resource Tipton, Bernice (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tipton, Bernice Description An account of the resource Bernice Tipton was born in Utah in 1924, and enlisted in the Women's Army Corps (WAC) in 1943. She trained in Des Moines, Iowa, and served on army air bases in Mississippi and Colorado, working primarily in personnel classification, assigning servicemen on the base to specific duties. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army United States. Army. Women’s Army Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-18 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f66fdec7ceef5e28e81bf4bb7eb7eac0.mp4 021d728e6946bf037ef9bf0ab8364ab3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78b136fa1f7eada85b146f6484b1b68d.pdf 43405181d362f57c0a34a1330af1d9a6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Charles Tipton Vietnam War 41 minutes 28 seconds (00:00:23) Early Life -Born in Baskin, Florida on March 10, 1947 -Parents were farmers -Grew corn, peanuts, tobacco -Engaged in sharecropping -Raised horses, cows, goats, and mules -Had twelve brothers and sisters -Youngest boy -First year of school was in Baskin -Moved to Morriston, Florida -Father worked for other farmers -Lived there from 1952-winter of 1961 -Moved to Arcadia, Florida (00:02:45) Awareness of Vietnam War -Watched the news every night in high school -Knew the casualty count for each week -Had no desire to serve or to fight in Vietnam (00:03:13) Getting Drafted -Received draft notice after he turned eighteen in 1965 -Granted a delay because he was recently married -Also had two daughters -Had to report in 1969 when he was twenty two years old (00:04:55) Basic Training & Advanced Infantry Training (AIT) -Reported to Fort Jackson, South Carolina on June 16, 1969 -Twenty three weeks for both basic and AIT -Trained to be an infantryman and part of a mortar team (00:05:19) Deployment to Vietnam -Granted two weeks of leave before deploying to Vietnam -Deployed in October 1969 -Didn’t know his unit or location (00:05:40) Arriving in Vietnam -Left U.S. out of Fort Lewis, Washington -Arrived in Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam -Three days of processing and waiting for assignment -Got assigned to the 101st Airborne Division -Sent to Bien Hoa Air Base for preparatory training (protocol and basic information) -Sent to Phu Bai and then to Camp Evans by helicopter -Remembers smelling Vietnam before he left the plane in Cam Ranh Bay -He was taken to a mess hall, but the smell destroyed his appetite �(00:07:30) Camp Evans and Field Duty -Assigned to 2nd Platoon, Charlie Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division -From Camp Evans was taken to Firebase Bastogne via helicopter -Taken to Firebase Birmingham, three days later, and carried out infantry duties -Guarding the firebase -Patrolling the surrounding area -Defending engineers building roads in the area -He wasn’t assigned to be a part of a mortar team despite his training -Made a standard infantryman -Accepted it -After Firebase Birmingham he returned to Camp Evans -Time frame was October 1969 – December 1969 (00:09:49) Details on Being in the Field -Only knew when Mondays came while in the field -Medic gave out weekly dose of anti-malarial medicine on Mondays -Never knew the actual date -Usually stayed in the field for forty to sixty days -After being in the field returned to Camp Evans for a stand down (rest) -Lasted two days -Rest -Socialize with each other -Drink beer -Eat better food (00:10:44) Firebase O’Reilly -Sent to Firebase O’Reilly after the monsoon season was over -Patrolled the area of operations surrounding O’Reilly -Area of operations was five to six kilometers in diameter -Stayed in that area for a decent amount of time looking for the enemy -Got ambushed -Set up ambushes -Found enemy bunkers and destroyed them -At night established perimeters in the field and guarded them (00:12:42) Firebase Ripcord -Prior to being sent to Firebase Ripcord he and his unit were stuck at Rakkasan Ridge -Weather and fog made resupply and transportation impossible -He was aware of how bad things had gotten for Alpha & Bravo Company at Ripcord -Went into Ripcord three (or four) days from Rakkasan Ridge -Stayed at the base of the hill until March 12, 1970 [April 11] -Saw destroyed helicopters while they moved up the hill to Ripcord -North Vietnamese mortars were hitting in front of them as they moved up the hill -Secured and guarded Ripcord once they were to the top of the hill -Once the area was secure they started building the firebase -Captured a North Vietnamese soldier that had broken through the barbed wire defense -Every bunker at Firebase Ripcord was rigged with explosives in case of retreat �-Stayed on Firebase Ripcord March 1970 – April 1970 [April-May?] -Built fortifications -Guarded the perimeter -Patrolled the surrounding area (00:19:23) Mortar Unit Transfer -Moved into a mortar unit after he was at Ripcord -Sent back to Camp Evans -Stayed there for two weeks -Got orders to be transferred to Charlie Company of the 1st/327th -Sent to Camp Eagle -While at Camp Eagle ran into a high school friend who was a helicopter pilot -He enjoyed riding in the Hueys -Friend told him that he could re-enlist and go into helicopter aviation (00:21:34) Re-Enlisting to Change Occupation -Re-enlisted while in Vietnam -Changed occupation from infantry to aviation -Temporarily assigned to A Company 5th Transportation Battalion -Stayed at Camp Eagle from July 1970 – December 2, 1970 (00:23:02) Fort Rucker, Alabama -Transferred to Fort Rucker, Alabama for aviation training -Had no prior experience with aviation -Flight chief trained him -Trained by the book -Became a door gunner instructor -Mostly classroom training -Taught recruits about the .50 caliber and M60 machine guns -How to disassemble and clean them -Basic facts -Had been promoted to Spec. 4 rank -At Fort Rucker met his second wife -First wife had wanted a divorce when he was deployed to Vietnam -Stayed at Fort Rucker from January to September 1971 (00:26:43) Returning to Vietnam and Camp Holloway -Returned to Vietnam in October 1972 -In July there had been a manpower inspection at Fort Rucker -He was going to be designated as a truck driver in Fort Rucker area -Opted for Vietnam instead -Stationed at Tuy Hoa from October to Christmas 1971 -Assigned to be in the 361st Aeroweapons Company at Pleiku -Attached to the 52nd Aviation Battalion -Maintained Cobra helicopter gunships and Huey helicopter transports -First time he had hands on experience with a Cobra was in Vietnam -Very similar to the Huey -He was no longer considered to be infantry, his new designation was mechanic/crew chief -Friend taught him about Cobra flight systems -Supported II Corps region of Vietnam �-Worked out of Camp Holloway (near Pleiku) -Supported the Central Highlands -Company was being shut down and moved out of the area -He was in charge of moving the Cobras to the trains -Had to clean, turn in weapons, and inspect the helicopters (00:32:11) Saigon, Vietnam -Sent to Military Assistance Command Vietnam (MACV) compound in Saigon -Stationed in Saigon for the last six weeks of his tour -Guarded civilians while they worked at night -Moved to Camp Alpha, Saigon -Had a good relationship with the Vietnamese civilians (00:32:55) Drug Use -Knew that people were using heroin in the rear areas -Prevalent issue -Never saw drug use in the field -Never saw drug use first hand -Found the remnants of drug use (empty heroin bottles) -He just drank beer while on base (00:34:19) Military Career: Post-Vietnam -Sent home and attained the rank of Spec. 5 -Sent to Hunter Army Airfield, Savannah, Georgia -Took a month of leave in October 1972 -Began service there in November 1972 -Married his second wife on December 1st 1973 -Served there until July 1973 -Hunter Army Airfield is closed down -Sent to Fort Bragg, North Carolina -Signed into the 82nd Airborne Division on September 19, 1973 -Signed out on March 17, 1987 -Sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky -Assigned to put together a unit of helicopters bound for Korea -Deployed to Korea from September 1987 to March 1988 -Only stayed six months because of rotation schedule (00:38:13) Military Career: Retirement -Returned to Fort Bragg after Korea deployment -Assigned to B Company 159th Aviation Battalion of the 18th Airborne Corps -Attained the rank of first sergeant -Stayed at Fort Bragg until he retired on October 31, 1990 (00:39:03) Reflection on Service -Accounts his mechanical expertise to the quality of training he received -Paid attention to detail and protocol because his trainers did -Becoming a tech inspector at Fort Bragg made him appreciate the training he received � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TiptonC1539V Title A name given to the resource Tipton, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tipton, Charles Description An account of the resource Charles Tipton was born in Baskin, Florida in 1947. He received a draft notice in 1965, but received a deferment until 1969. After training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, he deployed to Vietnam in October 1969. He was assigned to Charlie Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. He was sent to Camp Evans and then to Firebase Bastogne where he met up with his unit upon which they traveled to Firebase Birmingham. In December 1969 he and his unit moved to Firebase O'Reilly where he saw action in the field and from there went to Firebase Ripcord where he helped establish the base there. After Ripcord he was assigned to a mortar unit then he re-enlisted to be an aviation mechanic. He trained at Fort Rucker, Alabama and returned to Vietnam to serve with the 361st Aeroweapons Company at Camp Holloway outside of Pleiku. After Vietnam he served at Fort Bragg, Fort Campbell, and in South Korea until he retired on October 31, 1990. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-11 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/23dcc63edbe14fbd107cd1d82c8a07a9.pdf f320422886daa94b204248ed5bdc9b0a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Bryan Tobias Peacetime 22 minutes 42 seconds (00:00:26) Enlisting in the Air Force Pt. 1 -Graduated from high school -Enlisted six months after graduating from high school on the delayed enlistment program -Graduated in May, and started training the following the following May -Enlisted in the Air Force (00:01:53) Basic Training -Almost missed the bus to get transported to basic training -Didn't know where to pick up the bus in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Flew from Detroit to San Antonio, Texas for basic training -Note: Most likely Lackland Air Force Base -Basic training was a rude awakening -Got screamed at by drill instructors as soon as he and the other recruits got off the bus -He would do basic training again -Remembers his drill instructors scaring all of the recruits -Purpose of basic training was breaking down the recruits and rebuilding them as a unit -Remembers doing physical training and learning military time (24 hour clock) and jargon -Went to the firing range -Learned how to break down and fire the M16 rifle (00:04:10) Advanced Training -Received advanced training in the area of mechanics and materials handling equipment -Worked with forklifts and aircraft loaders -Aircraft loaders were the size of a school bus without the shell -Had a deck that could be elevated to load supplies onto aircraft -Spent 16 weeks training in Illinois -Note: Most likely at Chanute Air Force Base (00:05:06) Adjusting to the Air Force -Adjusted well to the Air Force and enjoyed it -Liked the lack of ambiguity -Believes that Air Force food is the best food in the military -Least demanding physical training in the military -Only had run a mile and a half in 16 to 18 miutes -Made friends easily and quickly in the Air Force (00:06:35) Assignments in the Air Force -After completing training in Rantoul, Illinois he spent eight years in Anchorage, Alaska -Note: Most likely received advanced training at Chanute Air Force Base, Illinois -Note: Most likely stationed at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska -After Anchorage he was reassigned to Fort Walton Beach, Florida in northern Florida -Note: Most likely Eglin Air Force Base -Never stationed outside of the United States -Alaska counted as overseas duty despite being in the United States (00:07:37) Friendships in the Air Force Pt. 1 -Had a brotherly relationship with the other airmen �-Looked out for each other both during duty and off duty -Friendships continued after he got out of the Air Force (00:08:51) Contact with Home -Only allowed to write letters during basic training -When he was two-thirds done with basic training he was allowed to call home -Allowed five minutes of phone time once a week -During advanced training he was allowed unlimited phone time during his downtime (00:09:43) Downtime -Spent his downtime fishing and working on cars with friends -Helped friends with various projects -Helped install a septic system -Helped set up mailboxes (00:10:30) End of Service & Life after Service Pt. 1 -Discharged when he was in Florida -Packed up his belongings -Allowed to fly home, or drive home -Chose to drive home with his precious possessions -Challenging to readjust to civilian life -Lots of ambiguity in civilian life -Civilians could question orders without repercussions (00:12:18) Friendships in the Air Force Pt. 2 -Maintained contact with a friend from Tennessee -Best man at Bryan's friend's wedding -Stood as best man at another Air Force friend's wedding -Still keeps in touch with him via phone calls and spending time with him -Meets with a friend who lives in Ohio (00:13:34) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -It was both a positive and negative experience serving in the Air Force -Hard to understand ambiguity after leaving the service -Taught him how to follow orders without question -Still has a “military personality” without thinking about it -Taught him to be decisive -Do what you mean and say what you mean -Has positive feelings about the military as a whole -Questions the political and military leadership in some instances -Questions America's position as the world police -Understands America's strength and why it's called to do that role -Doesn't always agree with America's actions, but understands the reasoning (00:16:39) Enlisting in the Air Force Pt. 2 -Chose the Air Force because it had the best eduction opportunities and best food in the military -Air Force is the most “civilian” branch of all of the branches of the military -Most civilian atmosphere -Learned how to work with computers, trucks, and infrastructure -Most practical skills to have as a civilian -More beneficial training experience than combat training -Air Force introduced him to computer work -Foreign experience, but good experience (00:19:12) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -Only enlist in the military if you're committed �-Knew men that enlisted without being committed and wound up in correctional custody -There were a lot of men that refused to conform to military life -Worked in correctional custody for six months and saw a lot of men like that -Have to be physically and emotionally prepared for military service (00:20:54) Life after Service Pt. 2 -Received well by family and his community -By the 1980s, the social perspective about the military had changed since the Vietnam War -Civilians understood troops fought the wars that outside actors started -Treatment of veterans has improved since the Vietnam War -He is comfortable being a veteran � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_TobiasB1847V Title A name given to the resource Tobias, Bryan L (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-20 Description An account of the resource Bryan Tobias enlisted in the Air Force six months after he graduated from high school. He received basic training in San Antonio, Texas and received mechanical and material training in Rantoul, Illinois (most likely at Chanute Air Force Base). After training he spent eight years in Anchorage, Alaska (most likely at Elmendorf Air Force Base) and completed his service at Fort Walton Beach, Florida (most likely at Eglin Air Force Base). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tobias, Bryan L. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tobias, Timothy (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988--Personal narratives, American Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf