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                    <text>Bisexuality: Identity and the Sexuality Spectrum
Exploring the complexity of attraction and how we assign labels to our complicated and unique experiences.

OnGoing LGBT Conference
Wednesday, November 3 I 3:00-5:00 PM I Pere Marquette Room, Kirkhof Center
For more information, please visit www.gvsu.edu / lgbtrc I If you need special accommodations, please call 616.331.2530

@
GRANDVALLEY
STATE UNIVERSITY
LGBT
RtS DIJR C E

C1::--.n:R

Approved

�</text>
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                    <text>1

Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
M.R. Bissell
Interviewed on Sept. 16, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #9 and 10: (43:22)
Biographical Information
Melville R. Bissell, Jr. was born in Grand Rapids on 7 April 1882. He was married on 29 April
1907 to Olive E. Bulkeley in Grand Rapids. Olive was the daughter of William F. Bulkeley and
Abby A. Marks natives of New York. She died on 6 August 1964 at the Bissell home at 350
Plymouth SE. Melville died on 20 December 1972 in Grand Rapids and is buried in Oak Hill
Cemetery. Melville and Olive had three daughters, Barbara, Anne and Eleanor.
His father, Melville R. Bissell, Sr. was born 25 September 1843 in Hartwick, Otsego County,
New York and died 15 March 1889 in Grand Rapids. He married Anna Sutherland on 29
November 1865 in De Pere, Wisconsin where Anna’s parents had moved to from Nova Scotia.
Anna was born 2 December 1846 in River John, Pictou County, Nova Scotia, the daughter of
William and Eleanor Sutherland. She passed away on 8 November 1934 at her home at 112
College Avenue SE, Grand Rapids. Besides Melville R., Jr., the Bissell’s were parents to
Dorothy A., Harvey S., Irving J. and a daughter, Lillie May who died at the age of seven years.
___________

Interviewer: Mr. Bissell, where did your family live in Grand Rapids?
Bissell: Originally they lived down on Sheldon Street, eighty-five Sheldon. That was the Bissell
home at that time. I was about, oh, seven years of age at that time, but I can remember it.
Interviewer: Where is eighty-five Sheldon, approximately; is the house still standing?
Bissell: The house is still standing. I can't tell you exactly where the streets are 'cause I don't
remember. Well I'll tell you, it is pretty near where, you know where the hotel is now, the hotel
on, the corner on one of those streets? I'd say it’s in the next block above the Woman's City
Club.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Bissell: That's where it was. We lived there until I was about seven years of age. It was in
eighty-nine or eighty-seven my father bought the house up on College Avenue; and it was fixed
up and we lived [in it] from then on. My father had caught cold and died of pneumonia at that
time, so he never lived up on College Avenue; he always lived on Sheldon Street.
Interviewer: Was your father born in Grand Rapids?

�2

Bissell: No; no he moved here. He moved here from Kalamazoo - mother and father and
grandfather moved up here. And the old house that they lived in was here for a good many
years; and now, of course, it’s got a building on it, [?across from?] St. Mark's Church. You
know where St. Mark's Church is? Well, it’s on that corner there; that was the old house that I
remember my grandmother and grandfather lived there; and we used to go there and see them.
Before that, that house was where the Post Office was. They moved that house out from the
Post Office site to build the Post Office down there - the old Post Office. You know where that
is. The house was originally built there.
Interviewer: How did your family get into the carpet sweeper business?
Bissell: Well, that's very simple; my father was in the business of china - had a china shop.
When they opened up the stuff there was a great deal of, you know, rubbish along with the
china, from the unpacking and all like that. He wanted to clean it up and he tried to get a box
and a brush that would do it. And that's the way he got started. It really started as a bare floor
proposition, but it didn't work so well on the bare floor as it did on the carpet. So, he started
making carpet sweepers. He kept right on and my mother worked right along with him and they
worked it out together.
Interviewer: When your father died, did your mother take over the business?
Bissell: Yes, she was always a business woman. Even in a lot of years when I was a young boy
growing up, she was interested in her children but she didn't want to take care of them. She had
someone take care of us and she did the business, she ran the sweeper company.
Interviewer: How long did she run that business?
Bissell: She ran it until I came along and took over.
Interviewer: When was that, sir?
Bissell: Oh, let's see; when did I start? I don't remember - a long time ago.
Interviewer: How old are you now?
Bissell: I'm nearly ninety.
Interviewer: When you lived on College Avenue, what was it like growing up there as a child?
Bissell: Well, it was fine. There was just a few houses, people had barns and had horses in them
and coachmen and everything for the horses. Automobiles; I can remember when automobiles
first came in. I knew every person that had an automobile at that time, and the make of car he
had. When you'd hear a car coming, you'd run out to the street to see it go by.
Interviewer: Do you remember the first car you ever saw?

�3

Bissell: Well, I think it was Charlie Judd’s; I think that was called the U.S. Long Distance or
something like that. I can't remember exactly the name of it.
Interviewer: Was it quite a thrill?
Bissell: Oh, I'll tell you, cars were scarce, there weren't very many of them. There weren't
probably more than three or four cars in Grand Rapids. People tried to make them, you know.
They'd take a light carriage and try to put a motor in it, connect it up; that wasn't very
satisfactory, though. They had to start and build them up from the beginning to really run.
Interviewer: Were there any people manufacturing cars here then?
Bissell: Well, Austin was the only car man that was making cars here. They were shipping them
in from Detroit and so forth. But, Austin was the only one making them, the Austin, and that
was a very good car and it was a large car. We had one and my wife's family had one and they
were good cars. But of course it had the Planetary System; they didn't have a gear shift. You
know what a Planetary System is? Well, it's a set of gears down under the foot boards of the car
that run there; and they throw a lever on, that is sort of like a brake, and they run through that.
Interviewer: Why did they call it the Planetary System?
Bissell: I don't know. That was the way they did it at that time; that's the only kind of cars that
were running at all, didn't have gear systems. Of course, the cars were [had] two sitting in front
and then you went around in the back and got in through a door that was about that wide, just
big enough to get through, and sat in there and sort of on an angle like this or like that. This was
the door here, and they shut this, and then they had another little door that dropped down so you
could sit on the door. You could take five people.
Interviewer: What was the reaction of horses to the first cars?
Bissell: Well, they didn't like them; they didn't like them, I shouldn't say that. They were scared
of them, of course they made quite a noise and they were scared of them. The regulations were
that if you were in a car coming, you had to slow down for horses; if they shied or showed any
scaredness, you had to stop. And, in fact, once in a while you had to get out and lead the horse
past the car.
Interviewer: What was it like living on College Avenue in those days? I mean, what was the
style of living like?
Bissell: Well, it was very quiet in there. When we bought this house we even lived in it at that
time the house was being fixed up. The house had been there for a long time. It was built, I
think, by Foster of Foster and Stevens. [In the 1868 city directory, Wilder D. Foster’s residence
was listed as 7 College-av. It was also described as located on the east side of College-av.
between Fulton and Rose – Rose being Cherry street at that time.] Originally we lived there in
his house. It was built in two sections, the first section had the back that was mostly wood and
the next section was a brick section. Mother, when I was a boy about eight or nine years old,

�4

ripped off the back and built a section of brick in there for the house. We had one tub, bath tub,
that was downstairs and in a little room off the hall and this was where we took our baths and
had some kind of a heater in there, run by gas and that would heat up the water for you. We
took our Saturday night baths there.
Interviewer: Were there many children in the neighborhood when you were growing up?
Bissell: Oh yes, quite a lot of them. Fred Pantlind, Ralph Voigt -Ralph Voigt lived directly
across the street from us. I knew Ralph Voigt very well. There was a boy who lived in that
small brick house right next to or three houses over from the Voigt's. I can't think of his name
now, but I used to play with him all the time. And later on when Fred Pantlind was born, they
came over and had a house right next to ours.
Interviewer: Did the families interact as well as the children? Did the families have activities
together?
Bissell: Oh yes, my mother was a widow and so she always had somebody with her. She had
her sister a great deal with her, her niece and people that lived there with her so as to be with
her because she didn't want to live alone. Of course, they did some bossing of the children
because we were pretty young at that time.
Interviewer: Did your mother attend parties that were given within society?
Bissell: Oh, yes, she would go to some of the parties that were given. Of course Kent Country
Club was in this house. This is the old club house. Kent Country Club was organized here
originally, it was a boat club, and a tennis club, and everything, and finally got into a golf club.
I think golf is [an] all the way around game here you know, when I was a boy.
Interviewer: Was it a very good course?
Bissell: Well, not good in the way the clubs are now, but it was all right.
Interviewer: Was golf a relatively new game at that time?
Bissell: Very. I'll tell you how golf started here. Mr. Blodgett or somebody went abroad, and
saw golf, and bought a set of clubs and brought them back here. Everybody that played golf
used that set of clubs. Then of course they had to make more of them and everybody had their
own sets.
Interviewer: You were just talking about Wealthy Street.
Bissell: Wealthy was originally right straight through into Reed's Lake, I mean Fisk Lake. Of
course, there wasn't any way for us but to go back that way and go along that [?] road. You
know where Mrs. Avery lives out there on Plymouth? [Corner of Plymouth and Lake Drive]
Well, that was the toll gate for this district. That was a toll road and that was the road that went
out to our farm and to Reed's Lake. And then the [Mr.] Hanchett came along and wanted to get

�5

out to Reed's Lake with his cars - streetcars - and so they had to curve around here to get to
around the lake.
Interviewer: So, instead of Wealthy Street ending up at Fisk Lake, they changed the road so it
ended up at Reed's Lake?
Bissell: Yes. Of course first it was a dummy line. Then they got the streetcars running out there.
Then you’ve got Ramona and all in there.
Interviewer: Did you buy this house?
Bissell Yes.
Interviewer: How long have you lived here?
Bissell: About forty years.
Interviewer: When you bought this house, was this all developed out here like this?
Bissell: It is exactly how it was, and the way this house was. I imagine I'd made some
improvements on it. I built that window there. It went right from the post there and right across
on the other side of house, I built a porch over there, of course, but as far as the grounds is
concerned and the house itself, why it is exactly as it was before. It's a three story house and it
was the Kent Country Club. They used to play golf here and they played golf all around here.
All these places around here, they played golf on.
Interviewer: When you bought this house, did you buy it as a residence, or did you buy it as a
farm?
Bissell: No, I bought it as a residence. Mr. Hanchett owned it. And he used it as a home and it
was originally brick. It was plastered and I think Hanchett took that off and fixed it up.
Interviewer: Did Hanchett have his own private streetcar to take him downtown to work in the
morning?
Bissell: He had a private car that was run on the street here. He used it as, not as just going
downtown, but he used it to have parties on. He'd pick you up downtown and take you out to
Reed's Lake and they would have a party; and it was an open car and he had a driver and it was
run by electricity. The open cars were very nice; I've been on it. He went downtown, down
Monroe Street and right down a few times to Ottawa Beach. When they did that, they put one
of the drivers on that ran the electrical cars down there, 'cause they knew the route and they
wouldn't run too fast and control it.
Interviewer: You mentioned that up there at the corner of Plymouth and Lake Drive where Mrs.
Avery lives there was a toll road there?

�6

Bissell: There was a toll gate there.
Interviewer: Where did the toll road go?
Bissell: [The road] went right out that street there, you know where the ___ that section of the
[?] houses right out that way; that’s where our farm was. That’s where they used to go out,
drive out to the farm, out that street.
Interviewer: Where was your farm located, Mr. Bissell?
Bissell: Right out the street there.
Interviewer: Plymouth?
Bissell: No, not Plymouth, but . . .
Interviewer: Lake Drive?
Bissell: ... Lake Drive. It ran right out there on, about three or four miles. Of course, we had to
pay toll when we went out on the line.
Interviewer: How much was the toll?
Bissell: Well, I'll tell you. My father made arrangements with the toll gate; he paid them so
much a year and all the Bissell’s who had cottages and could come out there and so there was
no toll. I paid no toll. When I was a young boy, I had some fellows I knew and I would take
them out in the carriage out to the farm. I'd say: 'Now we're going past the toll gate, now get
down there and we'll run it; and they would. I'd whip the horse up a bit and get across fast and
run through the toll gate. As long as we could make it, it was all right. There [was] [apparently
referring to a map] the hospital property, this property and [?] across the street on both sides.
Originally, they cut down this bank over here for Wealthy and they run [sic] it right into the
lake. Of course we couldn't have the streetcars go through the lake so they had to curve around
right up here [pointing on a map?]. Ben Hanchett was really behind getting that curve in there,
because he was running the street railway.
Interviewer: When Mr. Hanchett moved out of this house, did he move off of College Avenue?
Bissell: He didn't live down there then. He didn't live here until long after that.
Interviewer: Long after he'd....[?]
Bissell: He didn't live on College Avenue for a long, long time. That was a few years. He had
his horses here, and there was a barn there. He had two or three horses and used to ride
downtown, and that was the only way to get downtown, at that time, was to ride down in a
carriage. When the streetcar was put in, like that, why lots of people would go down on the
streetcar.

�7

Interviewer: When you were growing up on College Avenue, what did the young people do for
entertainment?
Bissell: Oh, I don't know, they used to have shows of different kinds. They put on shows down
at the opera house.
Interviewer: Were there many dances and things like that?
Bissell: Oh yes, we had dances and especially at Christmas time when the schools were all out
and we were all home. My mother used to have dances for me and my friends and some of the
other people did too. We generally had them in the St. Cecilia or the old Armory which is
across from the depot.
Interviewer: The old railroad station?
Bissell: The old railroad station; the depot there.
Interviewer: Where did you go away to school?
Bissell: I went to the Gunnery first, and that was in Washington, Connecticut. I was there two
or three years, and then after that I went to a small school in (Suffern, New York for a few
years. And then, later on, I went to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York. I didn't
graduate from there.
Interviewer: You didn't graduate from there?
Bissell: No, I just quit; I was there two years.
Interviewer: And then you came back to Grand Rapids?
Bissell: That's in Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: Oh! What was the name of the school?
Bissell: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.
Interviewer: What kind of a school was it?
Bissell: That was in Troy, New York. It was a technical school and engineering school. They
taught engineering and, believe me, you had to have some mathematics to stay in that place. I
never had so much mathematics till I got into that.
Interviewer: Are you a member of any clubs here in town?

�8

Bissell: Oh, several clubs. The Kent Country Club, of course, was started long before I was a
member of it, but my mother was a member of it and I had the privilege of using it in her name
until I got out of college, and then I became a member of the country club.
Interviewer: When did the University Club come into being?
Bissell: Oh, quite a long time ago, but not very long ago as far as years are concerned.
Interviewer: What about the Peninsular Club?
Bissell: The Peninsular Club was going when I got out of high school and that had been going
for a long time. I'm number one man down at the Peninsular Club.
Interviewer: Now?
Bissell: Now. That means that I have lived a great many years, longest of anybody in the club
and that I got a membership. I became a member in, I think, about ought-six[1906]. I've
continued that membership the longest of anybody in it, so I'm number one man; and my
brother was number two man. He died and then Heber Curtis, I think, came in there number
three. I don't know what the numbers are now. It makes no difference as far as [?] are
concerned, it's just an interesting thing being number one man at the country club or any club.
Interviewer: I heard a story about your mother - when she died - her last words. What were her
last words?
Bissell: I don't know.
Interviewer: Someone told me her last words were, “I am glad.” Someone said those were her
last words.
Bissell: No, I don't know. Now that might have been so, I don't know.
Interviewer: When you were running the factory, were the furniture companies going full steam
then?
Bissell: They were going full steam then. They have let down since then; and there are some
manufacturing companies that used to be here. There used to be a lot of them. Huge and small
ones, but . ? . Royal and. Berkey and Gay, a . . and, oh, dozens of them. They've all gone.
Interviewer: Did many of those men who ran those big manufacturing plants live around you in
your neighborhood?
Bissell: Oh, they lived all over town. See, then, by that time we had streetcars all over town and
they'd go back and forth to the business on the streetcar.
Interviewer: Before the streetcars what did they have?

�9

Bissell: Oh, they had carriages; and some men, I know one man, he was a lawyer in town, he
liked horses and he used to ride horseback down from his house. Of course, then you had horses
right in your barn, you see, and he used to ride downtown horseback and then put his horse in
the stable down there and then ride back again.
Interviewer: Was that a very common practice for men?
Bissell: No, no. But he did that for years because he liked horses and he wanted to ride so he
did it that way.
Interviewer: What was downtown like in those days?
Bissell: It was like all the other small towns around here. Monroe Street was the big shopping
street and all the stores were down there and the grocery stores and meat markets and a few
shops and all the things were down there. A little later on, at the corner down here why they got
a few stores in there.
Interviewer: Down on Wealthy and Lake Drive?
Bissell: Down Wealthy, yeah, and a few on Reed’s Lake. When I was a boy, the city ended at
Eastern Avenue. That was the end of the city. It was just country after that and then they kept
gradually going out further and further and further and so they got out to Wealthy and whatever
that street is down there.
Interviewer: Where did you spend your summers?
Bissell: I spent my summers right here; and I'd go down to Ottawa Beach for awhile and I used
to know pretty near everybody there. I was next door to Charlie Judd's, who was a man with the
company. He lived there and had a cottage there; and he had a boat - that was a launch - on
Black Lake there. We used to go down there. It was great coming in there in a launch, 'course it
was old-fashioned . . . (?)launch which was different from any other different kinds. They
weren't very fast but they were quite powerful. We used to ride all over Black Lake there with
it.
Interviewer: Were steamers coming in there from Chicago?
Bissell: Yes, particularly they came in there every Friday night and go back Sunday night.
People would come over on that from Chicago and stay here over the weekend and go back
Sunday night. Yes, there was a line of steamers going then. Some of them would stop at some
of these other places on the way down and pick up a load of fruit or something like that, and
carry it over to Chicago. But there was one landing in there pretty near every night.
Interviewer: Were there always dams in the Grand River? Can you remember the Grand River
ever being without dams?

�10

Bissell: No, I think there were quite a number of them. They did a lot of work on it and they
tried to running their steamboats up and down carrying freight and all that, and passengers, but
they didn't. There wasn't enough to. They were always running ashore, and it wasn't very deep
and it wasn't very good.
Interviewer: What was the most memorable experience from the time you were growing up?
What's the thing you remember most?
Bissell: Oh I don't know. I lived here all my life, I was born here and I lived here until I was
grown up - in the town. I went to school in the East, and I came back to Grand Rapids and took
a job in the company. Besides that I went out in the plant and learned how to make carpet
sweepers and do those things and learned all about it and I worked up from the bottom until I
finally became president.
Interviewer: Do you think there are any differences between the way men conducted their
business in those days compared to the way they conduct their businesses today?
Bissell: Oh yes, there's a lot of difference. Everything is a lot more technical now. Of course the
telephone and telegraph came in, we had them when I was a boy but not as strong as they are
now, they weren't as big. They didn't use it as much then. Some men do a big business on the
telephone now, on the cable - Western Union. Things are entirely different, everything's more
technical.
Interviewer: What do you think was the more preferable age to live in, the age when you were a
young man or the age today?
Bissell: Well, it depends on what you want. Now it's probably very mild compared to what it
was then because everything then... [?] For instance, Mr. Hanchett lived out in this house here,
ran the street railway and we had the streetcars to go on. I lived on College Avenue before I was
married, why I used to walk down Monroe Street, the whole length. I walked down from my
house on Washington Street, down to Monroe Street and back - sometimes twice a day, in the
morning and the afternoon. Of course they had Power's Theatre and they had shows down
there; and companies came in and stayed here and put on a different show every week. There
was Reed's Lake with all the amusements in it and it was, well you could hardly get on a
streetcar. They would have two or three cars would wait up there, about time the theatre was
getting out in the evening, and take the people into town. That was the only way they had
getting out there. Of course when the automobile came in, why they could go by a car.
Interviewer: Was that when the streetcar started to dissolve, when the automobile came in?
Bissell: Well, it didn't progress like it had before, because people had cars. It made a big
difference then because if they wanted to go to the lake, why they would go out in their car, and
a lot of them did. There weren't as many cars, of course, and the streetcars were crowded
coming in at night after the show. People wanted to get home. It'd probably take four or five car
loads to take them and get them out of there. It would be jammed full. It was pretty bad
sometimes when it rained and then at that time, why there was open cars. They took the closed

�11

cars off in the summertime and put on open cars. Those were run across like that [gesture?] and
there was a row of people here and have a row in here and another row in here. It was one of
our amusements in those days to take a streetcar ride in the evening, in a hot evening, to cool
off. We'd go out to North Park and then perhaps stay a little while there, and get a soda water or
something like that and get on and come into Grand Rapids again.
Interviewer: Was the Grand River used at all in those days for entertainment or for boating
events?
Bissell: Not very much, not very much. The Grand River wasn't very deep, you know. They had
some little boats and there were a few quicker, motor boats. Motors weren't very plentiful in
those days. They were noisy and dirty.
Interviewer: I think that is good enough, don't you?
Bissell: That's about all I can tell you.
Interviewer: Okay.
INDEX

A

H

Avery, Mrs. · 5, 6

Hanchett, Mr. · 5, 6, 10

B

J

Bissell, Anna Sutherland (Mother) · 2, 4, 7, 8
Bissell, Melville R. Sr. (Father) · 1, 2, 6
Black Lake · 9
Blodgett, Mr. · 4

Judd, Charlie · 3, 9

C
Curtis, Heber · 8

F
Fisk Lake · 5
Foster and Stevens Company · 3

G
Grand River · 10, 11

K
Kent Country Club · 4, 5, 8

O
Ottawa Beach · 6, 9

P
Pantlind, Fred · 4
Peninsular Club · 8

�12

R

V

Reed's Lake · 5, 9, 10
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute · 7

Voigt, Ralph · 4

S

W
Woman's City Club · 1

St. Mark's Church · 2

U
University Club · 8

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                <text>M.R. Bissell was born on April 7, 1882 in Grand Rapids. His father (M.R. Sr.) invented the Bissell Carpet Sweeper. The Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company was established in 1883. When Mr. Bissell's father died prematurely, his mother took his place running the business.  M. R. Bissell, Jr. attended Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in New York for two years but did not graduate. He returned to Grand Rapids to run the business, and became a member of the Kent Country Club, the Peninsular Club, and the University Club.  He died December 20, 1972.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Korean War
Laverne Bivens

Interview Length: (00:19:53:00)
Training and Service (00:00:27:00)
 One day, he received a letter saying that his friends and neighbors had chosen him
to serve in the military (00:00:27:00)
o This was during the Korean War, when there was a military draft and
because of the draft, the military ended up choosing the branch Bivens
would serve in, the Army (00:00:34:00)
 Following the letter, Bivens went to Battle Creek, Michigan and Fort Custer,
where he was inducted into the Army; from Fort Custer, he went to Camp
Atterberry, Indiana for his basic training (00:00:49:00)
o After basic training, he was allowed two days leave, which Bivens used to
get married (00:01:02:00)
 Following the two-day leave, Bivens got on a train for Washington state, where
he then got on a troop ship and head towards Alaska (00:01:13:00)
 When the ship arrived in Alaska, it pulled off at Kodiak island, where it stayed for
some time (00:01:24:00)
o Once the men had disembarked and made their way to Fairbanks, they
learned that they reason they stayed at Kodiak was that the original dock
at which they were supposed to land had blown up (00:01:43:00)
 While he was in Fairbanks, Bivens was part of the 4th Regimental Combat team,
which served as ground defense for the Air Force (00:01:59:00)
 They arrived in Alaska in June, 1953 and Bivens was assigned to the tank
company, although he did not know anything about a tank, except what it looked
like (00:02:18:00)
o He was eventually detached from the tank company and assigned to
headquarters, where he held security information material for the battalion
commander (00:02:36:00)
o During this time, his unit became quite acquainted with the native
Alaskans, who used their dog sleds to take the men where they needed to
go (00:02:53:00)
o While in Alaska, the men had to set up a tent in the Alaskan cold, which
would reach sixty degrees below zero at night (00:03:13:00)
 While in the military, Bivens learned: authority, how to keep information secret
and he gained many friends (00:03:34:00)
 His wife was with him in Alaska because she was a registered nurse and they
ended up having their first child in Alaska; his wife worked at a civilian hospital
in Fairbanks (00:04:00:00)
 When he and his wife left Alaska, they took a car that they had bought there and
traveled down the Alcan Highway (00:04:29:00)

�








o They eventually made their way to Chicago so that Bivens could be
discharged (00:04:44:00)
o Camp Atterbury, where he had done his basic training, was near Chicago
and where he was discharged (00:04:48:00)
While in high school, Bivens was the president of the local FFA (Future Farmers
of America) chapter; he was preparing to be a farmer, a job that he wanted to do
(00:05:09:00)
When he came back from the military, Bivens still wanted to farm, so he went
into partnership with his father at a dairy farm and after about eight years, he
bought his own farm (00:05:28:00)
o He and his wife eventually had five children, all who were involved in the
farming (00:05:53:00)
There was times when Bivens was somewhat afraid because the men were in
Alaska to protect to coast from the Russians coming across, something that the
men thought was a real possibility (00:06:21:00)
o One time, he was out on a project and when he came back to base, one of
the buildings in the battalion was burnt to the ground (00:06:40:00)
o He later learned that the persons cleaning the building used gasoline to
clean the floors and the gasoline ended up exploding on them and burning
the cleaners alive (00:06:58:00)
o There was no one shooting at the men but they still lost soldiers in the
company (00:07:12:00)
o In Bivens’ job, there was a spy in the outfit that was getting engineering
plans for some of the unit’s equipment and sending the information over to
the Russians (00:07:17:00)
 Bivens was involved in the trial, which made his fearful because he
did not know if the Russians would retaliate against him for what
he had said at the trial (00:07:37:00)
o It was not bullets bouncing around that made him fearful, but it was things
that made him wonder what was next (00:07:54:00)
The food was “tremendous” and consisted of C and K rations (00:08:10:00)
o Even most dogs would vomit of they ate the rations, which were in truth,
terrible (00:08:35:00)
o Some of the jelly cakes and crackers, amongst other things, were edible
but they still ended up eating the bad rations, because it was what they had
to eat (00:08:43:00)
o He would have much rather ate the jackrabbit and caribou that he hunted,
which was delicious (00:09:04:00)
On his spare time, Bivens would check and M1 rifle out from the supply
department and go caribou hunting, or a shotgun and go rabbit hunting, or a tent
and go out on a little trip with his friends (00:09:18:00)
o For the thirty day leave that he had, because he was interested in dairy
farming, Bivens worked on the largest dairy farm in Alaska, the Creamer
Dairy (00:09:34:00)
o He also played football with the Army team, specifically the team from his
unit (00:10:14:00)

�













There were not too many bases in Alaska, so the team ended up
flying back to the continental United States (00:10:24:00)
 Because the weather was so cold, grass did not grow, just dirt, and
when it became the warm season, the dirt would dry, so that when
they were playing football, the men were playing in sand banks
and whenever they made or missed a tackle, their uniforms filled
with sand (00:10:34:00)
His wife did not come up to Alaska until she received her nursing certification
and Bivens wrote to her every night (00:11:13:00)
o Bivens’ grandmother ended up writing to him every night, so he ended up
writing to her often also (00:11:18:00)
At one point, following their service, Bivens and his comrades would get together
every three years and over time, the group has begun to meet more regularly
(00:11:50:00)
o One time, Bivens’ best friend asked if he wanted to go to church, Bivens
said that he did so they went do to a Presbyterian Church in Fairbanks,
where the two joined with the Young Calvinist group, which constituted
the bulk of the group that met after the war (00:12:28:00)
While doing his job in the military, Bivens had to be very meticulous with his
book work; everything had to be honest, correct and accurate (00:13:22:00)
o Because of that, now, things have to be exactly right for him, a trait that
sometimes annoys people (00:13:40:00)
He is not a member of any veterans association, although he does support them
(00:14:06:00)
When the Korean War ended, he was still stationed in Fairbanks (00:14:33:00)
He remembers when Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese in 1941
specifically (00:14:56:00)
o For the farm, they had two sets of dairy cows at different farms and they
had an old flat bed truck to go between the two farms (00:15:01:00)
o Inside the truck was a radio and they had just pulled into the drive of the
second farm to do the milking and on the radio came the news that Pearl
Harbor had been bombed (00:15:09:00)
Something that please him while he was in the Army was that for a time, he was
in Special Services and he learned leather crafting, which he taught to the other
soldiers, who enjoyed it (00:15:39:00)
o For a time, he was in charge of the Special Services purchasing and selling
and one time, they questioned him on his bookkeeping (00:16:00:00)
o They ended up taking his books to headquarters to make sure that Bivens
handled all the money correctly (00:16:18:00)
 The Army did not like the way that Bivens kept the books; he did it
in an expense/income system and they wanted him to use a double
entry system (00:16:25:00)
o When they came back with his books, Bivens found out that he had more
money than he thought he did (00:16:37:00)

�




The bookkeeping incident showed that Bivens was honest, which helped him get
jobs insecurity because the Army knew that he was honest and he would not do
anything wrong (00:16:55:00)
When he first went down to Battle Creek, he was a farm boy and a young
Christian and he did not know about the world too much (00:17:22:00)
o They gathered all the men together to issue their clothing and Bivens
could not hear the sergeant too well and he asked, “Sir, could you repeat
that again” (00:17:36:00)
o The sergeant said, “Don’t you call me sir, I’m no officer” (00:17:53:00)
o Bivens was trying to be respectful but that was the military (00:18:04:00)
On the day of his discharge, Bivens and some friends from Alaska received the
paperwork saying that they were discharged, which was what Bivens had been
looking forward to (00:18:27:00)
o They went home after that and that was it (00:18:40:00)
o He had fulfilled his obligation to his country and he would gladly do it
again, even at the age of seventy-seven; if he had to fight for his country,
he would (00:18:50:00)

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ADMISSION:

$1.00 CHILDREN 6-12 YEARS

$2.00 ADULTS
CHILDREN UNDER 6 FREE
GRAND

ENTRIES

1 P.M. AND 7 P.M. - Saturday, September
1 P.M. - Sunday, September

2f ,

20

1986

1986

PRIZE MONEY IN ALL DANCE CATEGORIES
DEMONSTRATION - INDIAN ARTS AND CRAFTS - FOOD

PUBLIC WELCOME
MC:

JOHN BAILEY
HOST DRUM:

HEAD DANCER:

JIM

&amp;

STAR SINGERS

DEB KLINE

CAMPING AVAILABLE
FOR FU~~SER INFORMATION CONTACT:

( .,A/0 A\(Ohol •

RED ARROW (517) 866-8171

D..-u~)

11

,I
i

'

�</text>
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                    <text>B l ack River Band
Chippewa Pow Wow
Sept. :16 8 :17, :1989
Bay County Fairgrounds
S at. 8 Sun. 2 p.m.
Grand Entry -�
Prize Money for all Categories

Food Booths
Cralt s
Traders Welcome
FOR INFORMATION CALL
EARLY BIRD - (616) 937-5703
(AFTER 7 P.M.)
RED ARROW - (517) 866-8171
S3
S2
S2
SS
NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEFT OR INJURY.

No

ADULTS
SENIOR CITIZENS
CHILDREN
WEEKEND PASS

DRUGS

&amp;

ALCOHOL ALLOWED.

�</text>
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                    <text>Come summer, you will.

WGS/AAA 352:
Black Women's Culture &amp; Communities
Online course,

12

weeks (May 7 - Aug 7)

Prof. Ayana Weekley
Prerequisite: Junior standing
This course fulfills the U.S. Diversity and Human Rights/ Issues requirements.

A historical and theoretical analysis of the distinct identities African American women
constructed/or themselves (and had constructed/or them) in response
to the forces of patriarchal domination and political colonization.
Questions? wgs@g\'su.edu

�</text>
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                  <text>Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. </text>
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                <text>Blackbird: A Story of Mackinac Island</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Bob Blackwell
(58:17)
I am Charlie Collins. My wife Carol and I spend many hours a month volunteering
at the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans. We do this for the Masonic Service
Association. Do to the cooperation of the Grand Rapids Community Meeting
Center and the Michigan Military History Museum, we have been recording stories
of people whose lives have been affected by WWII. We then take them to the
Michigan Military History Museum and also send them to the Library of Congress.
The following is a result of our efforts.
What is your full name?
Robert Blackwell. I was born in Buffalo, New York, and my father was with the
Veteran’s Administration and we moved around quite a bit. So I went from there to
Northampton, MA, and then about 1938, he was transferred to Prairie Point, MD. Then I
went to high school in a little town north of there. The high school has been washed
away by flood since then. It was called Port Deposit. It is on the Susquehanna River.
Then about that time my father was selected to go to southern Ohio to be the regional
representative for the GI bill. So he would approve and inspect anyone who wanted to
teach veterans and get reimbursement from the government, he would have to do the
inspection. Anyhow that is where I had graduated from high school in Maryland. I went
back there and I wasn’t 18 yet. I was there for probably a month and I work at different
things. I did mechanical drawings and so on like that.
You graduated from high school in what year?
1943.
So you would have been born in 1925 then?
Yeah. That makes me 79 now.
What was your reaction when you first heard about Pearl Harbor?
(2:33) Well…I was sitting in the side yard at the house in Maryland and I heard about it
and I thought, I didn’t even know where Pearl Harbor was…of course….like a lot of
people did. The lady from next door whose son had gone in for one year…they had
drafted him for a year. So she was very afraid that her son was going to be involved with
that. He never was, but anyhow, I was very shocked. I took everything what President
Roosevelt said very seriously which most of the country did.
Now in your school did you participate in things like “scrap metal drives?

�No, because there wasn’t any war yet.
Oh….I am getting a little head of myself……
(laughing…that’s okay.) I was just graduated the same year as the war started.
.
So were you drafted into the Army?
No, I was in Dayton, OH, at the time with my parents and I saw the recruiting for the air
force [Army Air Corps} and of course Wright Patterson field is right there in Dayton, and
so I went out and made inquiry, and the fellow said, “well, here is an application.” He
said, “Why don’t you apply for the Air Force before they draft you?” So I applied when I
was 17 and then as soon as I was 18, they started giving me tests for the mental and the
physicals and then they told me I passed and I was going to be a cadet.
This is a pilot cadet for flight training?
Yes. I went from there to …..well they helped me out….you know….they told me where
I was going to go and so on like that. Then in October, they told me to report to Ft.
Benjamin Harrison in Indianapolis and from there they sent me to Jefferson Barracks,
MO, where I had basic training.
What year is this?
1943
And Jefferson Barracks is near St. Louis?
Yeah…Yeah….just south of St. Louis.
How long was your basic training in those days?
(5:39) Six (6) weeks. Then they took you and you became a cadet and then they gave
you some more basic training beside that.
Even though you were going into the Air Force, you went through regular Army
basic training just like a infantryman would?
Right. Most of the training officers were infantry people.
So when you got through with basic training what happened after that?
After basic training, they gave me a ten (10) day leave and I went home and then they
had to report to Las Vegas, NV, where I went to gunnery school out there. By the time
basic training was over, they told us all that we were going to go to the infantry except

�some of us were going to go into air crew training. Either be a navigator, bombardier, or
gunner.
When did they cancel your orders for flight training?
Just after the six (6) weeks….or just before the six (6) weeks …probably four (4) or five
(5) weeks.
What was the reason for the change of orders?
(6:48) Well..they had recruited enough and had enough in training. They didn’t have any
more training facilities. That had it pretty well planned out though.
Tell us what Las Vegas was like…everybody thinks of the big city that it is now of
700,000 people, the casinos and stuff….it wasn’t like that in 1943 was it?
No….it was more like Muskegon.
Oh…not a very big city….maybe 30,000 or 40,000 people.
Wasn’t even that big, I don’t think. We only got into town once or twice.
Were you stationed at what is now Nellis Air Force Base?
I can’t think was the name of the base was…..weren’t there several bases out there?
There might have been in those days….Nellus is the big one right now…just north
of Las Vegas.
(8:06) Yeah…they had gunnery school. They had ball turret gunners, top gunners…you
know…simulators…..and the actual equipment was there, but you just shot it with a
camera. Then to teach you that there was a certain amount of trajectory in shooting from
a moving plan to another moving plane. So they put us in the back of pick up trucks with
shot guns and then drove us past a skeet range. They would launch the skeets that we
were suppose to shoot them with a shotgun from the pick up truck while riding along.
Now have you ever done any hunting prior to all this?
No…..I had a .22 but that was it.
Okay so this was quite a change for you…..like you say….leading the target.
Just learning the basics. I didn’t have any idea how a machine gun worked.

�One of the things they taught you of course was how to strip down a guns, prepare
them and maintain them.
Yeah….
A .50 caliber gun is a big piece of machinery.
Yeah…it was really quite simple.
How long was this school again….six (6) weeks?
It was about ten (10) weeks.
From there were you assigned to a flight crew then?
(9:52) No…I was assigned to a …..I went to Lincoln, Nebraska and they assigned us to
crews. They made up crews there….like the pilots that had finished training, and they
were available. The co-pilots and bombardiers…they were all in a big pool there and
they would draw names and make crews out of them.
Okay…so you were just assigned a crew by lottery?
Uh…huh.
Ok…I have heard other stories…you know…this is in the British Air Force. A
bunch of them just got together and they went around and met each other and kind
of….”Would you like to join our crew…” sort of thing.
Not that I was aware of it.
How man men were in your crew …..?
I think there were ten…….no….eight (8) people.
What was your specific duties?
(10:55) At that time when they assigned us from Lincoln, NE, we went for training…we
pick up a plane there and went for training to Ardmore, OK. There was a air base
there….Gene Autry….I don’t know if you remember him, a cowboy…..he had donated
most of his ranch because it was nice level ground to the Air Force….well, he leased it
out to them for training and they built training facilities there. That is where they
assigned me to the ball turret gunner.
Ahhh. Could you tell us about the “ball turret gunner” for people that are not
familiar with the design of a B17.

�Well…it is really….it is kind of like sitting in the fetal position…..with your feet up
which controlled the aiming of the gun.
Oh…..so your feet operated pedals?
Yeah…like that….that would operate part of the thing and then the other part ..the
contraption over your head which two (2) little handles, you would turn it “right” to turn
the ball right and left…..down…up…
What did your foot pedals control….does the control like the ………
That controlled the “aiming device”. See the gun site was an optical configuration that
had projected on it various images….lines…and it had lines like this…..which you could
control by turning the ball turret up or down…..
Oh….I see.
(13:10) Then they would have the horizontal which you could control this way also. But
as far as what was in that parameter, you had two (2) lines which you would frame the
particular object that you are shooting at so it would frame it in the gun sight and then
when you got it in the gun sight you would press the trigger on the top of the gun….on
top of the handles and the two (2) .50 caliber machine guns which were right there by
your shoulder would start shooting.
Okay….I didn’t know they worked that way. It sounds like it requires
good….exceptional hand and eye coordination because you are working with your
hands and feet and trying to get oriented and every thing….it requires a great
degree of manual dexterity.
Yeah.
How did you come to be assigned to the ball turret?
Actually I was the lightest one. At that time I weighed 140 lbs. I was tall but that didn’t
seem to bother anybody. Not only that…I was the youngest and they intimidated
me….(laughing)
I was kind of wondering about that because you are…..in terms of height…about
5’8” or so and …?
At that time I was probably 5’ 11”.
That is awful tall for a ball turret gunner. Usually they have men probably about
5’4” or 5’ 5”.
Yeah…..Yeah…..

�Because it isn’t a very big space to get in to.
I said that we were in a fetal position. As you get in…you would have a curvature to the
back and then there was a little platform that you sat on. The back of the ball turret gun
was armor plated. The seat was armor plated. Under the seat were the valves that
controlled your oxygen, and also the relief tube was under there too.
So did is seem kind of scary? You’re riding in the bottom of the airplane and you
look down and there is something like 20,000 feet underneath you.
(15:38) You know I have never been very afraid of heights until now (laughing)….the
other day I was on top of …….oh…yeah…I had just came back from Saipan…anyhow
there was a hugh mountain there and there is a huge cliff there. There is also a look out
at the top of the mountain, and I looked down and ……I have never been bothered with
heights before…but….that wow…….Now is that because I am older (laughing) or I am
not smarter.
Yeah…it could be that when you are young you’re kind of …..you do things that
when you look back when you get older you wouldn’t do…….you think “I must
have been nuts” (laughing)
I really think I thought I was indestructible at the time.
So when you were in Oklahoma your crew kind of went through training and kind
of melded into a team that everyone knew what their job was?
(16:52) Yeah….It was mostly for the air crew…the pilots and co-pilots, and bombardiers
and navigators. Because we would fly from Oklahoma City to ..lets say to….Galveston,
Texas, and they would take the bomb sights and pretend they were going to bomb the
harbor or do something like that, but the navigator had to get us there correctly and
everything like that. The rest of us just kind of sat.
How long would you be in a ball turret on a mission like that….about four (4) hours
or so?
Probably five (5) or six (6) hours.
Were you pretty stiff when you got out of that?
I don’t recall it was.
Well, after you got done with your training in Oklahoma, what happened then?

�(17:50) They sent us to, I think it was, Kearney, Nebraska, and from Kearney, Nebraska,
they gave us a new plane. We flew from there to Maine and then to Goose Bay,
Labrador, and then Goose Bay, Labrador to Iceland, then Iceland down to Scotland.
Alrighty….I guess that is how they carried most of the aircraft over there.
(18:29) And to tell you how naive I was. When I was in Iceland, it was in July now,
….July 1944, I was there, and the crew people said, “Bob, why don’t you take the first
shift to guard the plane out here on the runway?” The plane had to be guarded. So he
says, “You do that until it gets dark.” (laughing)….it does not get dark in Iceland
(laughing) and about 4 o’clock in the morning…I couldn’t figure out …..why the sun
started to come up again (laughing).
They pulled a fast one on you (laughing)
Oh they did. They were in town…they were in the officer’s mess having a few
drinks….and the men were just having a good time.
I bet they didn’t pull that one on you a second time.
No….no.
(19:41) Then from there I went to Scotland and then they sent us for further
training….well mostly the crew went for more training.
So what unit were you assigned to ultimately?
The 487th Bomb Group…336 Bomb Squadron.
They were stationed at Lavenham.
What part of England is that then?
It is East Anglia….is that how you pronounce it? It was north of Norwich and south of
Burry St. Edmunds….that area. That whole area of course was all airfields if you ever
look at the maps. In fact of the people, the military historians and collectors, I think
there is five (5) of us that were within ten miles of each other.
That is amazing when you’re on a mission, how you find your own base.
Yeah…(laughing) that is why they’re the navigators…….
So you weren’t too far from London then. You could catch a train to London when
you had off.

�(21:18) Yeah…when you could get a pass. My first trip to London was really an “eye
opener”. I got there during one of the last German air raids, and there was all kinds of
destruction around.
We’ll talk more about London in a little while then.
This takes you to July 1944. You’re assigned to your first operation unit. What was
your first mission like….your first combat mission?
I don’t really remember, but I remember…..see D-day had happened in June. We were
there in July ….so they had advanced up to the beach about to St. Lo toward Cherbourg
and they were going for the Netherlands. My first mission, I believe, was to bomb the
hell out of St. Lo because the Army just couldn’t get through there. The Germans had it
so fortified.
I know this must have been the mission where they sent the heavy bombers over to
carpet bomb the area to enable the army to break out of the hedgerows.
Yep…..
Did you see any enemy opposition when you were on that mission?
Well…there was “flack” of course.
Oh…anti-aircraft fire.
Yeah.
Did that get anywhere close to your aircraft or were you flying above it?
No…….it was right around us.
What else did you do while flying this mission…do you remember?
Well…we had several missions there and then we went to Germany, the Ruhr and the
Ruhr Valley which is heavily “flacked”.
Okay…that is what I was getting at.
(23:29) Then the crossing from England to Germany, we went a crossed to Holland
which the Zuider Zee had huge “flak”…almost a curtain.
So they started shooting at you as soon as you got over there then.
Yeah…as soon as we got across.

�Can you tell us what the preparation was for a mission. When would your day
start?
Okay….they would probably wake you up about 3 a.m.., or 4 a.m.
So in the middle of the night you’re starting to get ready…..
(23:58) Yeah….and then you go have breakfast, and then you got down and sometimes
you would go get your equipment and take it to the plane and then come back, but most
of the time you would go to the briefing room where they had this huge map projection
on the wall of Europe and then they would have different color yarns going from our base
to where we would be going. So you could see where you were going. Whether you
were going to go to the Ruhr Valley to get to this point or whether you were going to go
to this place to get to Berlin or whether you were going to go some place else.
Anyhow….they had this behind a big curtain. When they would draw that curtain back,
all the crews were sitting around waiting to find out where they were going and then there
would be this huge “AAAAAAAHHHHH!....not that again….you know….”hey!! this is
a milk run”…..(laughing)
There was no inkling before pulled the curtain back for you? No rumors running
around like you were going to be going to Berlin?
Nope…..Well, you know they had pretty good security.
Were there certain targets like you ever dreaded to go to…or were kind of
considered easier targets?
No….
Or was all of Germany pretty much a “tough” target?
Berlin was hard. Of course they had protected it very well.
Did you fly any missions to Berlin?
(25:54) Two(2). I went to Peenemunde where the rockets were being tested.
Oh yes…in the Baltic…off the Baltic coast.
Yeah….that was very well protected. But the idea was to try to bomb their preparations
so they couldn’t get going on their operations. But by then they had already developed a
rocket that was going to London.
Oh yeah…this was a V-2….the developed the first ballistic missile.

�Then of course they had the “buzz” bomb had been developed there too. I didn’t know it
until later that they were also working on an atomic bomb, and we knew that.
Oh…so that is one of the reasons why we started our own program then….we had
to beat the Germans before they got theirs.
(26:52) Yeah….yeah….
After you have had your briefing, you went out to your aircraft then?
Yeah…yeah….we would get our flight jackets, electric underwear…….
Electric underwear????
(27:18) Yeah…I had to have it because I was a ball turret gunner because I couldn’t take
real bulky fleece lined……
Oh yeah…you see the old leather jackets with fleece lining…I guess there were
trousers and boots like that also.
Yeah…mine was just a jumpsuit with an electric suit over the top of it.
I can’t remember….I think it was like electric underwear, and then you put the jumpsuit
on over the top of that, and you could put a light jacket on.
You have people today think it is like today’s airlines…comfortable and 72 degrees
and it wasn’t like that….flying in a B-17.
No it wasn’t (laughing)
What was it 50 or 60 degrees below zero up there?
Yeah..about that. Of course the radio room would be heated. There was a certain amount
of heat blowing in to the waist position. I don’t think there was anything into the “tail
gun” position, but there was for the bombardier and navigator, engineer and the crew up
front….that was pretty comfortable.
So how many aircraft would a group send out on a mission?
You know I was trying to think of that the other day. I think…probably forty (40)….35
or 40.
Then you would form up with other groups to go over your targets. You might have
three or four hundred aircraft then?
(29:00) Right.

�Or we would all go over as a big group for protection and then break off into like an
airfield and the other one would go to the railroad yard.
Oh I see. At this stage of the war, did you have fighter escorts?
Well…just as I got there they started having fighter escorts.
The B17s took very heavy losses earlier in the war because they didn’t have fighter
escorts and with the heavy armament they weren’t able to defend themselves
completely.
Yeah…but they did a helluva good job without it before.
Yeah…they called them flying fortresses because all the machine-guns you
had….two (2) in your turret and how many others were on it?
Two waist gunners…ahhhhh ….top turret, bottom turret…the navigator had one on each
side and the bombardier had the one.
So you had ten (10) or twelve (12) machines guns….that is a lot of fire power.
See now just to show the importance of fighter escorts. The time when I was shot
down……
You were shot down?
(30:31) Yeah….how that happened was the Germans could detect that we had missed our
fighter escorts. They knew where the fighter escorts were going to take off. I mean their
intelligence was amazing. They knew where they were going to take off, and then they
could track that on their radar and find out if they were on time or late or whatever. They
found out they were 20 minutes late, and we were early ….so they just immediately,
within ten minutes, they had their planes up and in formation and were attacking us.
In that short gap….
And they had used a different technique then they had before….they used what they
called “a company front attack” which would be like spraying the whole formation with
machine gun fire.
So you would get a line of German fighters…maybe 25 or …..
(31:46) Yeah…..would be like eight (8) or ten (10) fighters down here, another eight (8)
or ten (10) up here, and then the course of formation was pretty tight so they would shoot
at the whole thing rather than individual planes.

�And of course you were coming in head on at each other……
Oh….no ….they came up in the tail which is the soft spot.
Oh from behind….okay…I see……because you just have the “tail” gunner covering
the rear and the ball turret…….
Yeah and then the ball turret gunner and the top turret gunner was getting some too.
Tell us about this mission that you were shot down on. Which mission was it?
What was your target that day.
(32:35) Well, my pilot decided that he wanted to become a “lead” crew. Now there are
different formations and they have different “lead” crew with the one that was ahead of
the formation, and then they took turns leading the whole group. In this particular
one…they had been a “lead” crew for two (2) missions. Because it was a “lead” crew,
they replaced the ball turret with a radar turret so they could read the formation
underneath. They replaced the “tail” gunner with a co-pilot so he could keep track of the
planes behind him, and he could radio to the different pilots….”come on…close it up
there…” and he knew all the names of the pilots…..he would call “loosen it up
fellows”… like that. Now our captain, my pilot that I went over with became a crew
leader and the day that we were shot down, they had an air force general, and I cannot
think of his name, and he was riding in the co-pilot’s seat. The co-pilot was of course in
the back. I was in a substitute crew that I had never flown with before.
So these were all new men.
Yeah…they were new. They were people out of the hospital, people off sick leave or
people who had just got there….it was kind of a pool that they were taking them out of.
They would go into the pool and make up a crew. Now they don’t normally do that.
They want you to train together first. But because this was the Battle of the Bulge at that
time, December 24, and it was the first good clear day that they had for “sight” bombing,
they wanted a maximum effort. In other words, every plane that was in the 8th Air Force
that was flyable, they wanted in the air.
So you are talking thousands of B17s…….
(35:19) Yeah…and our captain was the head of the whole shebang with the general.
Oh I see.
And we were flying one of the wings in back of him…that is where I was. Now the tail
gunner and I had been good friends and of course he was kicked off because the co-pilot
took his place in the tail and I was kicked off because of the radar ball so we ended up in
the same substitute crew. So I did know somebody in that crew. They were nice guys.

�But this was the first time you had ever flown with any of these guys?
Yeah….
(36:14) Anyhow, the Germans came toward us and I noticed that they shot down two (2)
or three (3) bombers….and we still didn’t have our fighter escort. Then they came
around and made a tight turn and came in again from the back in a “company” formation
and doing this and I noticed that our tail gunner, I think, shot down one of their German
planes or two (2). Some of them…….you know there were quite a few German planes
that were lost….but I don’t know…not nearly in proportion to what we lost. Because
they said that when this mission was over…that night at the base, there were, out of all
the planes in the base, there were only twelve (12) that came back and landed at that
field…….twelve (12) planes……
A lot of them were damaged……
Yeah….a lot of them were damaged and landed at other fields….were shot down…..
You see the old movies like Twelve O’clock High….you hear the planes coming and
see the men up in the tower count and how many there are……
What sort of damage did your plane take in this attack?
(37:43) I don’t remember. I remember that I was down there and I could look out and
see that they had hit one of the right engines…I can’t tell you which one. Then I heard
from the pilot that it looked like we were going to go down. He said to prepare to “bail
out”. I immediately tilted the ball turret up so I could get into the plane, and then I
grabbed my parachute. I had my jacket on. I had my parachute harness over top of that.
Then you took the parachute which was a front pack. It too was ring side which you
hooked to the front of the harness that you war on shoulder and neck. Then I walked
over to the tail…or to the door and the radio operator was there, and he would…..I said,
“Are you going out?” ….indicating what are you going to do……he yelled, “I can’t go
out!!!....”I can’t do it!”
Did you have to give him a kick in the rear or push him out?
I didn’t have nerve enough to do it. I wish I had now because he never went.
He never got out of the plane?
Nope…..nope……either that or he landed or did it too late.
How many…..was the plane gyrating?
No….it was just kind of ….long…..losing altitude to the left.
Did all your crew get out?

�(34:54) No…the tail gunner….who I thought was trapped back there, and ….I don’t
know….but I think the engineer…….no the engineer didn’t make it …but I think maybe
one of the bombardiers or the navigator may have made it.
Did your waist gunners get out?
One of them did…….yeah…….well…because we were a substitute crew, we only had
one waist gunner. We didn’t have two.
Oh I see.
You know one guy would shoot out a side and then go shoot out of the other side.
Wasn’t a full ten man crew then……so roughly half of the crew got out.
What did it feel like after you got out of the airplane…..you were floating through
mid air and the battle going on around you and everything……
(yeah…laughing) of course ….or because I had an electric suit on, I had electric shoes
on and my regular GI shoes were beside my parachute, and they were tied together by
their laces, and I put those on the harness, and then as I went out, the force of the
parachute opening, the shoe just broke off and went down (laughing)….and I was up
there 20 minutes because we were at 30 thousand feet….it takes a while to come down.
Yeah…it sure does. I didn’t know it took that long.
Everything seemed to be so far away. I could see other people in parachutes and I could
see them below me. I didn’t see very many above me, but just the ones below me. And I
could see the plane disappearing….
Now were you over German territory then?
(42:10) Well…if you remember the Battle of the Bulge…..it made a bulge down towards
France. We were over part of the bulge that was half in Belgium and half that the
Germans held….
So you were in German held territory?
Yeah……anyhow I landed on the River that divided the two. I landed in the River which
is about like the Rogue River only a little faster…..
Only a little colder….
Yeah…I guess…it was December 24…it was very cold (laughing)……

�Quite a Christmas present wasn’t it?
(42:58) So I landed in that and as I was coming down, I couldn’t figure out what was
going on……the Germans were shooting at me from the ground…(laughing)
So anyhow I landed in the river and the Germans came around and started shooting at
me, but they got cut off by…….but the force of the water as I came down, I realized that
I was going to have to get out of the harness, and I mistakenly unsnapped the one at the
weights instead of the ones at the crotch. Now the British had a parachute harness that
you just unscrewed that and hit is like that and they would all release….but we didn’t
have those…….so anyhow…I ended up as I landed in the water, the parachute filled with
water and pulled it away from me so that I was floating down the river feet first being
dragged along. Then as I was dragged along, the Germans would take a shot at me, then
pretty soon I didn’t hear anything but just the water. Then I was dragged…half
underwater and half up. I would keep coming up long enough to get my breath, and I
was a pretty good swimmer anyhow.
And the parachute was still attached?
(44:47) Yeah…then it would inflate….then it would get on a snag or something, then I
would catch up to it and start to get out…then it would fill up again. So I got over to a
bank and there was a sapling there…about 1 inch….I mean four inches around, and I
couldn’t get…I had my hands on it and my legs around it. What I did was to put my legs
around it like that….and then the parachute inflated again and pulled me off and broke
my ankle.
It pulled you off……..
Yeah…(laughing) broke my ankle.
Ahhhhh. Geeeeessss
(laughing) thank goodness there was some Belgian people downstream who could see my
situation and they waded out and grabbed the front of my parachute and dragged it into
shore, and they pulled me in after it.
So some Belgian civilians brought you ashore then.
(45:59) Yeah…then about then, I think, a American jeep came along……I don’t
know…I can’t remember how……anyhow I ended up in a small roadside hotel run by
the………you know it was behind the lines. So they filled the bath tub up with hot water
because my clothes were frozen on me.
Oh yeah…in the middle of December….

�Yeah…it was really weird walking along with frozen clothes…..rather chafing also
(laughing)
(laughing….yeah…)
Yeah…they treated me good. They notified the Americans, and they took me to a
MASH unit that was just setting up. All the personnel were there, but they were in
operation yet. That was Christmas Eve. It as in a church….a Catholic church and they
had taken all the pews…….of course a lot of the churches didn’t have pews
anyhow…..and they had me go over there, and they had cots in their for the wounded,
and I was their first patient. They put me in dry clothes. Wrapped my ankle, and then
they all took off for church at midnight, (laughing) and left me……and I remember it
was an awful lonesome feeling seeing that “one” votive light on the alter, and thinking,
“my God!...you really lucked out”….(laughing)
So you were in the Army hospital for …..?
(48:11) Oh yeah…and then they didn’t have room for me, and they didn’t have anything
set up for a bigger hospital so they turned me over to the RAF, and I went to Brussels and
ended up in a RAF hospital in Brussels.
What was it like being with the British in the British hospital?
Oh…wonderful.
For one thing, they treat their NCOs with so much respect.
Oh yeah? So you were a Sergeant ....
Yeah, I was a Sergeant then so I was put in a private room with another Sergeant. He
was from the Royal Air Force, and he had been a courier and he had had a motorcycle
accident.
(laughing/laughing)
…..so he was there, but he was quite a bit older than I was and he had traveled to
Brussels before and he had friends there. So quite often, he would take off in the
afternoon and go visit with his friends and I would just be in the hospital reading…..so I
liked that.
So it sounds like you got good care then.
(49:30) Yeah…then I got a walking cast on my foot, and that Sergeant fixed me up with
one of his uniforms so…(laughing) I was in the RAF for four (4) or five (5) days…I
can’t remember…and then they flew me over to Oxford, England to an Army hospital.

�How long were you in the hospital for a total before you returned back to duty?
Let’s see…..that was December. It was spring.
So you were out of the war then for about three (3) or four (4) months.
Yeah…I was out of the war for three (3) or four (4) months. I still came back and flew
two (2) or three (3) missions after that.
Okay…then you get to VE Day. Did you fly any missions….I knew they flew some
missions over Holland….dropping food to people and stuff.
(50:00) Nope. I did fly one mission….they wanted to photograph all the damage they
caused in the Ruhr Valley and they wanted pictures of that. You tell me now…how
much time did they have and would they have bothered to look up how much their bomb
strikes meant after the war was over.
Oh……yeah…there has been quite a controversy how effective the bombing was…I
know that. I read stories that the British would bomb at night and of course
everything is blacked out and you know…even for a big city like Berlin you might
miss.
When you photograph it in the daytime…you don’t know whether you did it or the
British did it……anyhow……..then that is when I came back to the base and I discovered
that Sam wasn’t killed.
Sam was ………the tail gunner?
Yeah…he was from Youngstown, OH.
(51:43) So we had a few drinks together. I wish it had just been a few …(laughing)
Oh you had a little to many (laughing)…quite a hangover the next day?
Yeah….
So that British beer is quite a bit stronger, I hear.
And he was older…..he mother and father were Czechoslovakian but from Youngstown
and he was American born, and his brothers were too. He had two (2) brothers in the Air
Force and both of them were plane crew members. His brother was shot down over
Czechoslovakia. He was flying out of Italy on a B24s, and he was shot down over
Czechoslovakia and as far as I know, he was something like 25 miles from where his
folks were born…but he was dead.
Oh…he was killed……

�Yeah…he was killed. His other brother, I think, was in the South Pacific. Not like
“Private Ryan”. They should have taken him out. They should never had let him fly.
Yeah…there was a lot of families that had brothers serving in various theatres.
(53:06) And maybe…I am not sure, but there is a lot of patriotic families and he wouldn’t
have wanted any special treatment.
Yeah…it was different. The mood of the country was that everyone was going to do
whatever they can to defeat the enemy powers. So being shot down and breaking
your ankle and so on, you were entitled to a “Purple Heart”.
(53:34) Yeah…yeah.
Did you earn any other decorations of war….like Air Medal….or….”Distinguished
Flying Cross”..
I got an Air Mdtal….and “Good Conduct” medal (laughing)….
Yeah…like you said, three (3) years of undiscovered crimes…..(laughing)
You missed ship but they didn’t catch you…..you know….like when you would go to
London. Tell us about the stories when you went to London when you had a pass.
Well…that wasn’t a wild town but it was of course a big city with lots of stuff going
on.
Oh…yeah…wonderful.
They loved the “Yanks”.
They use to complain a lot that Americans were over paid, over sexed and over
here….(laughing)
So you would get like and overnight pass or would you get like a whole weekend or
like a week’s leave?
Sometimes we would get a 48 hour pass. And they didn’t…after the war was
over….they didn’t keep real close track of you whether you late coming back if you were
like 12 hours late…that was it….nothing more than 12 hours.
So if you were late coming back they would give you like extra duty?
No…they wouldn’t even notice it.
Not unless you told them about it.

�Alright.
So you were mustered out of the service in……..
(55:06) Oh…I came home on the Queen Mary.
Oh really!
Yeah….
It was a wonderful experience coming in. Our ship laid off of New York. It got in about
midnight and stayed over until about 7 o’clock in the morning and then it came in the
East River, pass the Statue of Liberty and a beautiful sunny day. I was at the rail and
there were thousands of people there. All the fireboats were there with their big streams
and people ….tug boats tooting their horns. It was a beautiful greeting, I’ll tell ya.
Quite a home coming then.
Yes and being able to see the Statue of Liberty, I like that. It was really outstanding.
Can you tell us a little bit about your life after the war?
What sort of work did you do after the war and tell us a little bit about your family.
(56:57) Well, I took the GI bill and went back to school…..well I didn’t go back to
school I enrolled …went to Miami University for three (3) years.
Then I worked as an insurance adjuster.
How did you end up in Grand Rapids?
(56:57) I transferred here. I was hired in Des Moines, IA My wife was from Des Moines
…or from Southwest Iowa and I went from Des Moines, they transferred me to Lincoln,
NE. At Lincoln, NE, the manager was transferred and there was two (2) of us with the
same amount of seniority, and they asked us if we would decide between us which one of
us wanted to stay. Well, of course I was from back east, I wanted to go Midwest, at least.
So I ended up in Lansing, MI.
Is your wife still alive?
No…she died fifteen (15) years ago.
Oh…so you have been a widower for quite a while.
Yeah….I remarried.

�Do you have any children?
I have six (6) children; five daughters and one son. I have 15 grandchildren.
(58:17) You think of the men who didn’t survive the war and all the families that
were never started, all the kids that were never born and stuff. You had quite an
exciting life, Bob, and very long and healthy life.
I started to say that I was in Saipan and I really learned about the battle of Saipan. So if
you happened to have someone that was at the Battle of Saipan, let me know, I will bring
the maps that he can read and relate to. Somebody in the Marine Corps probably or
somebody like that. There were some Army units there too.
Bob, I thank you for sharing your experiences with us. Thanks for your service
during the war.

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Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
All American Girl’s Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Maybelle Blair
Length of Interview: (00:38:58)
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27,
2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 8, 2010
Born: 1917 Longvale, CA
Resides: Palm Desert, CA
Interviewer: “ Maybelle, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. To
start with, where were you born?”
I was born in Longvale, California, which is right next to the LAX Airport.
Interviewer: “What year was that?”
1927
Interviewer: “Wow, you would never know.”
Absolutely not.
Interviewer: “At that point, what did your family do for a living?”
My father was in charge of a park in Englewood, California. He started it off with the
CC Camp and he was very fortunate to get the job and my mother was a housewife. 1:01
Interviewer: “How many kids were in the family?”
Two.
Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his job through the thirties?”
Yes, absolutely, that’s what saved us because we did go through the depression and we
were very, very, very poor.
Interviewer: “At what point did you start playing organized sports or even
disorganized sports?”
Oh, probably when I was about nine years old, because my brother, whom I worshiped
and was seven years older than I, loved baseball, so naturally, guess what? Little sister
was right behind him and followed him every step of the way and he would tell me to go
home, but when the boys needed to have somebody at their batting practice, that was the

1

�time that I could play and I could go and shag the balls, which was very fortunate, I
thought.. 1:49
Interviewer: “Did you play in pick-up games and things like that too? Did they let
you play at some point?”
Oh yeah, when they needed an extra person, guess who got to play and out in right field
naturally, but at the time it was fun though.
Interviewer: “How did that translate into your playing organized softball? When
did you start that?”
I started probably playing organized softball, probably in 1942. We had little industrial
teams or local teams that they had, I joined that and that was a lot of fun when I was still
in—actually grade school I guess. 2:31
Interviewer: “How old were you, do you think, when you started?”
Probably twelve.
Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position?”
Yes, second base.
Interviewer: “Could you turn a good double play?”
Oh my, they would hire me today if I was able, but I loved every minute of it, it was a lot
of fun and the double play was great.
Interviewer: “At this point, whom were you playing against?”
Just little local teams, like some market or some department store or something like that.
We had little leagues. 3:06
Interviewer: “How would you get to the games?”
My father would take me and my brother would go along begrudgingly because he didn’t
want to see sister play, it was boring.
Interviewer: “Now, at some point do you move up a level in terms of the league that
you’re playing in?”
Yes, they started opening up a real good semi-pro league in Burbank, California and I
was able to go and play in that league. I was real fortunate to be able to do that and that
was quite exciting for me.
Interviewer: “What year did that start up for you?”
Probably 1942 or 43, right in there.
Interviewer: “So it was about the same time that the All American Girls League
was forming up in Chicago.”

2

�Right, I was still in high school and that’s when that took place.
Interviewer: “Were most of the people that were playing in this league about your
age or were they older?”
Some of them were older, the ones that took off to play in the all American and there
were some that were a little younger, both ways, but I was probably one of the youngest.
4:15
Interviewer: “Now you’re playing with this league, how far a field would you travel
to play your games now, still local?”
All over, and then I started playing with the Pasadena Ramblers and that was a traveling
league during the war and we use to go and play the service men and all over the place.
We went to San Diego, we went to northern California to all of the forts and all the bases
and that was quite a lot of fun because the guy’s got a big kick out of it and we really got
a kick out of it and that’s what we actually did, we went to play them and they had
planned a trip for us to go overseas to play the teams and at that time the war had picked
up and they said no, that it would be too dangerous for us to go, so we stayed home. 5:01
Interviewer: “How does it work? You arrange that you’re going to an army base
or a navy base or someplace, how do they orchestrate that and look after you?”
What they would do was, they would send a bus after us wherever we were or hire a
Greyhound bus or there was another bus line, but I can’t remember what it was at that
particular time, and they would charter that for us and take us down. We would go into
the barracks where the women were and we would get dressed and all that we had to
prepare for and after our ball games they would feed us dinner and the bus would take us
home.
Interviewer: “Were you playing men’s teams or women’s teams?”
Men’s teams, they were all men’s teams. 5:45
Interviewer: “How did the male players react to that?”
Well, they couldn’t believe it, that we could beat them. They thought, “oh god we’ll kill
these women”, but they couldn’t beat us because they weren’t professional ball players, I
mean good ball players, some of them were good ball players, but we would just cream
them and when we did, they couldn’t believe it. Everybody in the stands, all the rest of
the soldiers or navy or sailors or what have you, would just scream and holler at them,
“you sissy, you can’t catch”, you know it was really fun. 6:18
Interviewer: “Now, the All American Girls Baseball League, they had their skirts
and all this kind of stuff. What kind of uniforms did you have?”
We just had shorts and a top and pants also. It was generally satin in those days that we
all wore and that was a lot of fun.

3

�Interviewer: “It was better for sliding into base.”
Absolutely, you would get strawberries and that didn’t feel too good.
Interviewer: “Did you would still get strawberries even with the satin?”
Absolutely, they even had little sliding slides that we had. They had it.
Interviewer: “Now was the softball played with a sort of regulation size baseball
field or a smaller field?”
A regular softball field, and don’t ask me the size of the bases because I can’t remember
that far. 7:04
Interviewer: “Are the distances a little bit shorter than baseball or longer?”
Much shorter.
Interviewer: “So in that way it was similar to what the All American Girls League
was when they started out, when they played shorter dimensions.”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Now, in softball were you a good hitter?”
A very good hitter and that was one of my strong points. I was a good hitter and I had a
strong arm.
Interviewer: “As a hitter did you hit line drives or long flies?”
Line drives and I could whack the heck out of that thing and it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed
it.
Interviewer: “When you were with the Pasadena Ramblers, what was the farthest
away from home you traveled?”
Probably three hundred miles, north California and San Diego from Los Angeles.
Interviewer: “They weren’t sending you out into the Midwest or anything like
that?”
No, no, no, just the California area, but we hit from northern to southern.
Interviewer: “As you were doing this, did you have any kind of regular job at the
same time or was the team your job?”
I was in high school. 8:15

4

�Interviewer: “You were in high school and were you mostly playing in the summer
when you sere out of school or would they take you out of school to go on these
trips?”
It was during the summertime, during our summer vacation. My mother wouldn’t let me
out of school, period, no matter how I begged.
Interviewer: “Now, how long were you playing in that league?”
I was probably there until 1946 or 1947 when the scout saw me, the Chicago scout saw
me and wanted me to come and play professional softball in Chicago. 8:51
Interviewer: “So there is professional softball in Chicago, was there a league up
there?”
Oh yes, a wonderful league up there, a strictly softball league and we played in the
Chicago area and it was the best part of my life.
Interviewer: “They were scouting the California league you were in, so the scout
says, “you want to come up and play?” did you have to go and clear it with your
parents?”
Oh, are you kidding, that poor guy went through the fifth degree I’ll tell you, I felt sorry
for him. My mother was just a---every question she could think of and he promised and
promised to take good care of me and all I would have to do is put me on the train and he
would pick me up at the other end. 9:41 I would have to write home so often or call
home and that was guaranteed and he saw to it that I did.
Interviewer: “Had you ever taken a long train trip like that before?”
The first time in my life, I couldn’t hardly go to Englewood, California we were so poor,
we didn’t have any money, so that was my very first trip outside of California.
Interviewer: “Do you remember how long it took?”
Probably a day and a half or two days on a train, I can’t remember, but it was exciting.
10:14
Interviewer: “When you got up to Chicago, what did they do with you?”
Well, they met me at the train and they took me to a hotel and I was scared to death
because I was there all by myself and I had never been by myself, so I pushed the dresser
up against the wall and got me four baseballs and a bat and dared anybody to come in my
room. It was really something, I was scared to death and I called my mother and she
said, “I can’t afford this, get off the line”, so I had to cut the conversation pretty close, but
oh my god I was scared. 10:49 I told them, “I can’t do this any longer, I can’t sleep, I
can’t do anything”, so two days later I got my roommate in from Missouri, a gal, and we

5

�became very, very good friends and I was thrilled to death when she came, so she was my
roommate during that period. 11:09
Interviewer: “Was there a specific team that you were assigned to then?”
My assignment was with the Chicago Cardinals and it was a nice team and we had a real
good team.
Interviewer: “Now, did each team have their own home park or were their certain
parks that everyone played in?”
Everybody had their home park.
Interviewer: “What was yours?”
Except for our, that was the only on that didn’t, excuse me. We played at Bidwell
Stadium and Bluebird Park, which Charlie Bidwell owned and his son now runs the
Chicago Cardinals and there were several others.
Interviewer: “They are the Arizona Cardinals these days.”
Yes, the Arizona Cardinals, excuse me. 11:57
Interviewer: “There was a Chicago Cardinals football team.”
Well, that’s the same one. They came out here and are now the Arizona Cardinals and
that’s what he owned.
Interviewer: “Did they pay you much of anything?”
Oh yeah, I was rich, I made sixty dollars a week and my gosh, I had money that wouldn’t
end. I was going to save it and go to college like a lot of us tried to do and I sent some
home to my mother. I was a rich girl because the hotel room was only seven dollars a
week at that time. 12:24
Interviewer: “What did they do in terms of chaperoning you or were you just on
your own?”
Out manager was responsible for us, he and his coaches, and they watched out for us.
They did watch me very closely I’ll tell you, I was bad, I was bad.
Interviewer: “Did you get yourself in trouble?”
I was always in trouble having a good time that was my problem. I loved everybody.
Interviewer: “What were the games like in this league?”

6

�They were wonderful, absolutely wonderful and we had some fantastic ball players like
you see the Olympic teams today, that’s how our softball teams played ball exactly.
Interviewer: “Was it a higher level of ball than you played in California or close?”
Pretty close, but it was a higher level because they took the best ball players from each of
the teams because they would scout and take them back to Chicago and that’s what
happened. 13:26
Interviewer: “You’re playing and how long did you play for them?”
I played there in 1947 and in the latter part of 1948 is when I hurt my legs and I couldn’t
move and that’s when I was signed by Max Carey to go and play in the All American
League.
Interviewer: “All right, explain how that happened.”
Oh god, like I said, I was at Parache Stadium and I was out showing off thinking---I was
a show off for some reason and I could never understand that, but anyway, I pretended I
was a major league pitcher out there throwing the softball and I could throw a curve and I
had a good arm, so after I through showing off this guy comes up to me and said,
“Maybelle would you mind coming over here I want to talk to you for a minute”, and I
said, “no, of course not” and I went wobbling over and he said, “how would you like to
go and play for the All American?” I thought for about two seconds and I said, “sure
why not, I can’t do anything, but I don’t want to play anything but pitcher”, and he said,
“that’s what I want you for”, and I thought, “pitcher, I never played pitcher before, but
I’ll go”. 14:36 Well anyway, they signed me and I got in my car, I had a car at that time
because I had saved my money, and I drove down to Peoria and they got me a hotel and I
had a horrible toothache and these two little girls that were great fans went out and got
me some toothache medicine and saved my life and anyway to make a long story short, I
started pitching. 15:09 I was there for maybe a month and first of all he had me go
out—he called me into the game, “Hey Maybelle come in and pitch”, and I said, “oh”,
and here I come dizzy Dean herself is walking out there, so I was out there and somebody
was on first base, I don’t know who it was, but I think it was Sophie Kurys. I wound up
I’ll tell you, I wound up for forty minutes and by the time I got through unwinding that
runner was on third base you know not knowing I forgot all about it that I had a runner on
and that was the fun of it, I had a lot of fun. 15:49 They started bunting me because they
found out I couldn’t move.
Interviewer: “Ok, sort out your baseball career a little bit. How long were you with
the team before they put you in, was it a month?”
It was actually about a week and a half before he put me in and he kept me around for
courtesy’s sake I guess for another couple weeks and then he called me in his office and
he said, “I hate to have to tell you this, but I’m going to have to release you, but would
you please come back next year when your legs are well because we can certainly use
you.” 16.27

7

�Interviewer: “So he liked your arm anyway?”
Oh yeah, I got a good arm still today.
Interviewer: “When you were working out with them, before he had actually put
you in the game, did they know you couldn’t run?”
No, because I didn’t practice like I was running, I didn’t let them know. I kept it a secret
all to myself.
Interviewer: “So in the game, when you were playing, did someone try bunting on
you to see what would happen?”
Well yeah, exactly, because the rumor had gotten through because we had interaction
between the leagues because when we were off we would go and visit the other kids and
they said, “she can’t run so start bunting for god sake, she can’t move”, which was true.
17:12
Interviewer: “How did you hurt your legs?”
Running. And I didn’t tell him and I was hobbling around there and could hardly run and
for some ungodly reason the other leg was pulled and I cannot understand how I got two
charlie horses, but I kept those babies for a long time, even after I came home it took
quite a while to get rid of it. When I got home from playing ball I was hired by Northrop
Aircraft. I wanted to go back and play again, but I had such a good opportunity that I
couldn’t do it. This fellow I met was in charge of all traffic at Northrop Aircraft and he
said, “I want you to come in, learn the job and I want you to be supervisor in
transportation”, and I said, “oh come on, get off of it, I can’t do that”. I told him that and
he said, “you have the personality for it, I need to get you in here to get these drivers in
order”, and I said, “no, no, no”, anyway I finally decided to do it and I said, “the only
way I will do it is if I can learn to drive every piece of equipment we have because I do
not want to hear them razzing me or giving me a hard time that you picked the wrong
person. 18:27 Anyway, he did and I worked my way up from courier hauling VIP’s all
over like generals and presidents, heads of states and what have you all around, to
dispatcher and I went on to be supervisor and then I became manager of all highway
transportation for Northrop Aircraft.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about that courier job. Who were you driving
around?”
Big time—heads of state from all over the world because at that time we were building
the F5 Fighter and we were trying to sell it, so we were selling it to all the different
countries for their fleet or air force and I hauled lots of very important people. In fact,
Ronald Reagan was one of them and to this day I was thrilled to death about that. He was
Governor of the state at that particular time. 19:27

8

�Interviewer: “Were their other individuals whose names stood out as being
particularly interesting or unusual people?”
Oh sure, General Whitehead who was the head of the Pacific, and what was his name—I
loved him, but several of them and I can’t remember right now. Korean generals and it
was quite an experience for me.
Interviewer: “Were you going into jobs that normally men had been doing?”
Yes absolutely, it was all men and then when I became currier there were two couriers
ahead of me and both girls. W wore one of those uniforms and I thought I was real cute.
I was uglier than sin, but I thought I was cute. Anyway, that’s what we did and that was
the only girls in the department and then I went on, like I told you, and became head of
the department and one of my jobs was planning routes for the F18 aircraft to get it from
Hawthorn Air Force Base to---from Northrop Field to Edwards Air Force Base. 20:45 I
would have to go our and survey all of that—take down signs, trees, everything else
because we had to get it there because that was going to be our future the F18, so luckily
that was a real job and I got that sucker down there. One time when we were going
through downtown L.A. because it’s got the wings on it, and this drunk comes staggering
out of a bar in downtown Los Angeles he looked and the wing was practically going over
his head and he went like this and turned around and went right back into the bar. He
wasn’t seeing pink elephants he was just seeing airplanes. I can imagine what he went
back in and told them. 21:31 When I got to Edwards Air Force Base it was so exciting
because they had laid out the red carpet for me and after we stopped the aircraft and all
the people got out, they were playing “off we go into the wild blue yonder”, and I got out
of the truck and I couldn’t stand up, I was so weak I fell almost down on my knees, but
they caught me, I was so excited, it was quite an honor.
Interviewer: “Did you encounter any friction being a woman and going into these
positions and telling men what to do?”
At first I did, but the problem was is that I knew it very well and I knew what I was
talking about and they couldn’t argue with me or try to pull the wool over my eyes and
they soon learned that they couldn’t do that to me. I was fair, but I was strict. 22:17
Interviewer: “So the fellow that hired you knew what he was doing.”
Apparently, I guess so and also, I planned the route for the B2 Bomber, so I was happy
about that too.
Interviewer: “Did you have to move that along surface streets too?”
Oh yeah, not the whole bomber, but just the cockpit area.
Interviewer: “But not the whole thing.”

9

�Oh no you couldn’t. Up at Palmdale they built the wings, but we built the cockpit at our
facility and that was great too. I have to tell you too that I played for the New Orleans
Jacks, the world’s champions.
Interviewer: “Now when were you doing that?”
I can’t remember what year that was, but it was while I was working at Northrop. I told
my boss at the time, I said, “I have to have a whole month or so off because they are
asking me and pleading with me to come and play for them”. I said, “Ok?” he said,
“Ok”, so he gave me a month off. 23:11
Interviewer: “How did you get the invitation to play for New Orleans?”
Well, they new about me playing back there and they were out here and they needed
another ball player desperately, so I said, “ok” and I went and that was fun.
Interviewer: “Did you play second base for them?”
Second base.
Interviewer: “Then where did you go when you were playing with them?”
Oh, up through Canada, all through Washington, Oregon, Arizona and California.
Interviewer: “Now, was this a point after the All American League had folded?”
Yes that was, I would say that was probably down at about 1950 or 1951 maybe and I
may be wrong there. 23:55
Interviewer: “It could be, in 50 and 51 the league was still going at that point
wasn’t it?”
Oh yeah, the league was still going, but I didn’t have time to go back and play ball, I
couldn’t do that because I would lose my job and that was more important.
Interviewer. “You could take the month and go with New Orleans?”
Yes, they each gave me a month.
Interviewer: “So you had a chance to go back and play a little bit after the injury?”
Yeah, I did and that was fun.
Interviewer: “Now, on that particular tour, what kind of crowds did you get?”
Oh, fantastic, in fact we stopped at Bakersfield and played the world champion men’s
baseball team and we had two sisters on the team known as the Savodas—the best
baseball players or softball players or ball players I have ever seen in my life. During
batting practice they, both of them, could take batting practice and hit it over the fence

10

�left handed and right handed, no problem, run like deer and throw—you cannot imagine
how great they were, the two best ball players that ever lived. 24:52
Interviewer: “You played a men’s championship team, was that a championship
softball team?”
Softball team yeah.
Interviewer: “So you weren’t playing the New York Yankees or something?”
No, but during that game that we played them, the men had to pitch from the men’s
league and the women pitched from out league distance to the plate and our pitcher was
named Lotty Jackson and she stood about six one or two and she had a wind up that you
couldn’t even see the ball. Ginny Finch today, I don’t think Ginny Finch is as fast as was
this girl and these guys couldn’t hit her and it was so funny, we couldn’t hit him either,
let’s face it, anyway he walked me somehow, I probably stood there with my bat on my
shoulder and he couldn’t hit the plate, anyway, I somehow got over to third base and this
manager we had, Freda Sevoda one of the Sevoda sisters, she said, “pretend like you
can’t run”, and I said, “I can run”, and she said, “no, pretend like you can’t run”, and I
said, “ok”. 26:00 She took over and what she noticed—we beat these guys and what
happened was that the catcher, when he would get the ball sometimes, he would walk to
almost where the pitcher was and give him this (a sign) and he would slowly start
walking back to the plate, She noticed, that’s how smart she was, well he went out there
and he gave a little pitch to the pitcher and she took off like a jack rabbit and slid right
under him and we won one to nothing and I think there were eight thousand people out
there for that game and they just hoot and hollered and that was really something. 26:35
I never was so tickled in my life.
Interviewer: “Did they make any effort to get you to stay on?”
They wanted us to come back and play, but we had a schedule and we couldn’t do it and
the league didn’t like that at all, not at all
Interviewer: “Was that the last time you were playing on organized ball?”
Yes, that was the very last time and then I decided to hang it up.
Interviewer: “Now, when you were working at Northrop etc., did people know
anything about what you had done in the past in these different leagues and
things?”
During that time they didn’t know because the movie is what made it, if it wasn’t for the
movie you wouldn’t have known about the All American Girls, you wouldn’t have
known about the professional softball league because actually, they could have taken the
softball league instead of the all Americans and made the same movie, but they didn’t,
but people didn’t realize that there was two leagues or even one league, especially the
western people, the Midwest knew it and in Chicago they knew it, but that was it, the

11

�south didn’t know it, nobody knew it until Penny Marshall decided to make the movie.
27:54
Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooked up with this organization that you
played on one team for a short length of time?”
They made the movie and they asked me to come and be in the movie, so I was in it when
the old timers were at the end and what have you and that was the reason.
Interviewer: “Did you know a number of the people who were in the league?”
Oh yes, because I played softball with them and baseball and what have you. I have
known quite a few of them for years.
Interviewer: “At the time you were doing all these things, playing in these leagues
or for that matter going into some of your jobs at Northrop, did you see yourself as
a pioneer or were you just taking care of yourself?”
Nobody did, nobody did until after the movie again. The movie was the making of
everybody and even when you mention that you played in the all American or the
National league they don’t know what you’re talking about and could care less, now they
care, it’s amazing. 29:00
Interviewer: “What do you think of sort of the state of women’s sports today? Do
you see yourself as being part of a larger trend?”
I think it’s the most wonderful thing in the world, it has given all the girls the opportunity
of scholarships, it’s not that they’re going to be great professional athletes, but it gives
them the opportunity to go to college and that’s what I’m thrilled about. It gives the girls
the opportunity to take the right step in their lives, whichever step that is. They have a
choice. And thank God that happened; we’re so thrilled about it. 29:33 Before it was the
good old boys and let’s face it, all we were supposed to do is stay home and put on our
aprons and have kids.
Interviewer: “How do you think your life would have gone if you hadn’t hooked up
with organized softball?”
What would have happened? I would have probably gone on to college and become a PE
teacher. That’s exactly what I would have done. That was my goal in life because I
didn’t think there was any chance to go and play professional softball or baseball, but it
was there and gosh, how lucky we were, how lucky we were.
Interviewer: “Is that what gave you the connections that enabled you to go into
Northrop? Did these people know you from that?”
No, no, I was in a function or something—I think I was giving a speech—I don’t know
what in the world I was doing, anyway he came up to me and he said, “I need you”, and I

12

�said, “what do you mean you need me?” He said, “I’m da, da, da, da, and I want you to
come to work at Northrop”, and I said, “well, I’m going to go to college”, and he said,
“no, I want you to come to Northrop because I’m going to give you a good job and I’m
going to open the door for you”, so maybe he saw something that maybe he thought I was
a leader or something, that’s what I thought. 30:54
Interviewer: “If you were at a function and giving a speech, was this somehow in
conjunction with what you had been doing already?”
No, no I don’t know what the heck I was giving the speech about, I was giving a speech
about—heck, I can’t remember what it was, but I was giving a little speech. I don’t know
what it was, maybe about going to college—that’s what it was, I was going to go to
college and what my career was going to be and what I was going to become, I think that
was it. 31:19
Interviewer: “How do you think your time in these organized leagues affect you or
change you? Did you grow up some because of this or learn things—that whole
experience of going out to Chicago and all of that?”
Yeah, it taught me a great deal because I had never even been away from my mother
overnight to a girls party or sleep out or go anywhere to visit anybody, that was the first
time and I learned a great deal and it was quite exciting and when they say they put the
ropes around the suitcases, well I had ropes around my suitcase and I took off. 31:55
Gosh, I thought I was in hog heaven when I landed in Chicago and they picked me up.
The buildings wow.
Interviewer: “Although there was that part there where you had to barricade
yourself in the hotel room when you got there, but the young woman who did that is
not the same person exactly that the fellow from Northrop spotted and said, “I need
you”, so something happened between there.”
Well that was a learning process, absolutely a learning process and It’s not as easy as you
think, I figured it out and when I went to Northrop I realized that if I really wanted to
make it, I had to devote myself to it and quit being a kid anymore and quit fooling
around. I still fool around, but anyway that’s the way it is. 32:43
Interviewer: “Well, it makes for a very good story and thanks for coming in and
telling it to me today.”
Hey, I hope you appreciate it.

13

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                    <text>1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Miss Dorothy Blake
Interviewed on September 20, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #14 and 15 (47:17)
Biographical Information
Dorothy Stuart Blake, the daughter of William Frederick Blake and Adeline Louise “Alde” Tuck
was born 23 July 1889 in Grand Rapids. She passed away at the age of 88 on 4 September 1977
in Grand Rapids.
William F. Blake, the son of Increase Blake and Sarah Farnsworth was born 3 May 1851 in
Farmington Falls, Franklin County, Maine. He died at his home at 320 S. College Avenue, Grand
Rapids on Christmas Eve 1915 and is buried in the Blake Cemetery in Farmington, Franklin
County, Maine. William was in the wholesale grocery business and came to Grand Rapids in
1887.
Mr. Blake was married 15 March 1881 in Farmington, Maine to Adeline Louise “Alde” Tuck.
Alde was the daughter of Dr. Cyrus Dean Tuck and Adeline Lucy Colby. She was born 8 June
1857 in Falmouth, Cumberland County, Maine and moved with her parents to Farmington,
Franklin County before 1870. Her death occurred on 29 April 1925 in Grand Rapids and she is
also buried in the Blake Cemetery.
___________
Blake: You probably want a limit on time too, don‟t you for each question, or don‟t you?
Interviewer: No just, you just talk as long as you want. Miss Blake, it looks as though you‟re in
the process of moving, you are in the process of moving from this house. We‟re at three-twenty
College South East. How long have you lived in this house?
Blake: I have lived here since eighteen ninety-three.
Interviewer: Did your family move here?
Blake: My family moved up here from the old Warwick Hotel, which later became the Cody,
which was later turned into a parking ramp.
Interviewer: Was your family living in the hotel at the time?
Blake: Yes, and we moved up here I remember there were only two houses on the whole west
side of the street, between College, between Cherry and Wealthy. And one house is what I think
was called the, the Waddell house, and later was called the Hudson house, which is still standing,

�2
and the other house was a dark red brick with a forbidding looking door that looked like a prison
door, and Mr. and Mrs. Shaw lived there. They were old people then, and I don‟t remember of
course who built the house, or if it was the Shaws or not, but they were living there, at that time.
And all the rest of the block was on the east side was a vacant lot, and a cow pasture and an
apple orchard, through which I had to walk to go to school, the old Wealthy Avenue School.
Interviewer: Where was the Wealthy Avenue School located?
Blake: It was, where it is now, only an older building and the entrance was on Wealthy Street,
and now it‟s called the Vandenberg School of course, the Wealthy entrance is on Lafayette.
Interviewer: Well, were you a child then, when you moved up, how old?
Blake: Oh yeah, I was four years old when we moved up here, so…
Interviewer: Did your family build this house?
Blake: No, it was about, I think this house had been lived in two and a half years. There was only
one family that occupied this house before we moved up, and that was the Brouwer family I
think. There were three Brouwer boys I believe, Evert O. Brouwer, and Jack Brouwer, and Otto
Brouwer was born in this house. Well, they were renting it from father.
Interviewer: Well then, then your father did build the house, but he was rented it from
somebody?
Blake: He bought it.
Interviewer: Oh.
Blake: And rented it for a couple of years before we moved up.
Interviewer: I see, what kind of business was your father in?
Blake: He was in the wholesale grocery business, with teas and coffees, as his specialty, which
ultimately turned out to be the manager of the tea department for Judson Grocery Company.
Interviewer: Had he been born in Grand Rapids?
Blake: He was born in Maine, Farmington Falls, Maine. My mother was born in Farmington,
Maine.
Interviewer: Did they meet each other in Maine?
Blake: They met each other when Mother went to Farmington Falls to teach school, they had
never met before, they grew up seven miles apart—just a horse and buggy road between.

�3
Interviewer: What a, what was the reason they finally moved to Grand Rapids, your father and
mother moved here?
Blake: He started West, to be the, now you‟ve got me, on going back that far. This is just what,
what I heard from them, of course, that he started West, he was a lawyer, at that time, and he
started west to be the corporation lawyer for a mining company in Utah. And when he got to
Chicago, he was met by a telegram saying that the mine was flooded, and they have to postpone
the working of it for a while. Well, it was postponed forever apparently, so father was stuck in
Chicago, and that‟s when he, got a wholesale grocery and teas and coffees to work with a cousin
of his, who started him out in Chicago. Then later they moved to Grand Rapids. And he stayed in
that business instead of in the law.
Interviewer: That‟s interesting. Where was this store located in Grand Rapids?
Blake: Oh the Judson Grocery Company, gracious, oh, it was downtown. But on what street I‟ve
forgotten.
Interviewer: Do you remember going to the grocery store as a child?
Blake: Yes, and before that to the Worden Grocery Company, was the first one, and father was
one of the organizers of that, and then later he joined the Judson grocery.
Interviewer: What was downtown like in those days?
Blake: Well, I really don‟t know what you mean by that question.
Interviewer: How did if differ from today, for example? Or did it differ at all?
Blake: Well, we had streetcars, now we have buses. The streetcars were, ran on an overhead
trolley. And some of our, well, I don‟t know about downtown, it had its big department stores,
Spring Dry Goods Store was one of the best. It had Herpolsheimer‟s, it had Wurzburg‟s. They
were early settlers in this neighborhood, too.
Interviewer: What was it like growing up in this neighborhood?
Blake: Oh, it was very, it was a very happy life, most of it centered around home, of course, and,
well most, most of our fun was right here. We played croquet on the back lawn, we packed up
picnics and got on the Cherry-Shawmut Streetcar line and went to John Ball Park for a day‟s
outing, that was, that was fun. There were some animals there, but, the zoo was not as large as
we have now. But there was, that was one of our joys. And another was, on a hot day, get on the
Wealthy-Taylor streetcar, for five cents, and ride from one end of the city to the other, on the car
to get cool. And one end was at North Park, and the other end of the line was Reed‟s Lake we
called it. And Reed‟s Lake was one of the places where we had lots of good times. There were
rides on a steamer for ten cents, rides as long as you chose, stay on all day if you wanted to, and
we‟d take picnic lunches with us. And there was a, an excellent vaudeville, high class vaudeville,

�4
outdoors in the pavilion there, which was one of the things to do if you wanted recreation.
Another thing was to hire a team, there used to be a livery stable down on the corner of LaGrave
and Wealthy, and father [would] hire a rig and a couple of horses and we‟d pack up a picnic
lunch and we‟d drive to Cascade and Ada, where he had some trade in the general stores there so
he‟d combine a little business with a picnic spree for us.
Interviewer: What kind of a road went from the city here to Cascade and Ada?
Blake: I think, now I‟m not sure, I think it was a gravel road. It might have been just plain dirt
road, but I can remember as the gravel road, especially the gravel road to Ada.
Interviewer: Well, outside of these little excursions around the city, most of your life did center
around the home then.
Blake: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Can you describe to me what your home life, somewhat, what a…?
Blake: Well, when we were very small, mother had help that lived in the house, and, one maid
would do the washing, the ironing, the cooking, the cleaning, for her board and room, and a, very
small amount per week. And then later, when we grew up and had our own tasks assigned to us
for housekeeping, mother hired help by the day, a dollar a day was, was for the price for years.
And then outside help would do the washing, the wash bench and two tubs and a wringer, out on
a big back porch. And she‟d hang it out and she‟d iron it, and then she‟d come another day to do
the cleaning. Well, that isn‟t so very different from what we have now except the washers are all
automatic.
Interviewer: Were there, did your family have many activities with other families in the
neighborhood?
Blake: Oh yes, there was a wonderful neighborhood. The houses on the east side where I‟m
living were all single family houses, except one, there was one, it was a what did you call it, a
double house, upstairs and downstairs there were two families. All the rest were single families.
We knew every family on the block. And the whole block, especially the older people, the
fathers and mothers would get together and have their parties. And sometimes the children would
get together and put on a theatrical performance of their own making, and the parents would turn
out and pay a penny a piece or so many pins a piece for the privilege of watching our activities.
That was fun, homemade fun. The families they were families that stayed put, at least two
generations of the same family would be living in the same houses in here.
Interviewer: Why do you think that was? Why did the families, for example, would two
generations of a family be the same neighborhood? Why was there that, for what reason was
there that stability?

�5
Blake: I don‟t know. I suppose because they had lovely houses, good homes, they didn‟t care
about going away for very long.
Interviewer: What do you think changed all of that?
Blake: The automobile, and then later the airplane. The automobile did a lot of changing, for
better and for worse, too.
Interviewer: Was there a, how would you classify in terms of economic position, the people that
lived here on south College compared with for example, the people that lived on Jefferson or up
on the Hill. Was there a difference?
Blake: I don‟t know that there was any particular difference. Jefferson was an avenue of homes
too; some very beautiful homes there. Even Sheldon had some beautiful homes. Some of the
political parades used to go down Sheldon. People would sit out on their front porches and
watch.
Interviewer: You were involved in some women‟s suffrage activities. What exactly was your
involvement? When did you first become interested in it?
Blake: Oh, I suppose when I was a small child, I was indoctrinated with the idea of women‟s
rights, after all, I had three sisters, and we were a woman family. And well as a little girl, I did
things like selling suffrage newspapers downtown, either inside or outside the store; it was
perfectly safe to be on the streets. And soon as I got out of college, I helped with the nineteen
twelve campaign, which was a very lively one; Dr. Wishart was the manager of that. And we had
an office downtown, and I had an old typewriter that I took down there and did office work for
them. And my younger sisters rode in parades, dressed up in the suffrage colors, and with
banners and, and pamphlets decorating the floats. Oh, we did so many things I, I think one of my
fondest memories was, the one that will always stay with me, was meeting Susan B. Anthony.
She was seventy-nine years old when she came to Grand Rapids. We had the national convention
here in Grand Rapids in eighteen ninety-nine, and she came, and Howard Shaw came, a brilliant
list of people who were present at that, that convention, that lasted for several days. And mother
took me to meet Miss Anthony one afternoon. She was a guest at Mrs. John Blodgett‟s house,
which had been torn down now, where the Stuyvesant is now. I can remember my impression of
her, it as very sweet, gentle, little, old lady who was courteous and treated me just as if I were
important. She was, and she signed my birthday book for me, and put the date in it. That‟s one of
my fond memories. The next year she was unable to travel, I believe, and it wasn‟t too long after
that than she passed away.
Interviewer: Why, why did they hold the national convention in Grand Rapids, was a, how did
Grand Rapids happen to be chosen?

�6
Blake: Grand Rapids just simply went after it and insisted that they come here, and they said they
always met in Washington, D.C. and they fought coming here, but finally, the men were on the
job too, there was a very strong men‟s suffrage at work with Dr. Wishart on the job too.
Interviewer: Who was Dr. Wishart?
Blake: Oh, he was the minister at Fountain Street Baptist church, very prominent man, nationally
prominent. And then all of the, the Chamber of Commerce I think they called it then, the Men‟s
Chamber of Commerce went after it tooth and nail, they just worked for it, offered lots of things,
lots of inducements to the women if they would hold their national convention in Grand Rapids.
And they finally won out, they did all sorts of things for them, the St. Cecilia was the auditorium
where they held their meetings. The Warwick Hotel was their headquarters, and some of the
delegates of course were entertained in private homes. But that was a great feather in the suffrage
cap of the nation, because always they had before and after, at least, held their meetings in
Washington.
Interviewer: Were many women in this neighborhood, in the Hill District, the Hill area, involved
with women‟s suffrage at that time?
Blake: All of them that I knew were. But I don‟t know that I can name them, but it was a very
homogenous neighborhood.
Interviewer: Was there any reaction by the men against the, the women‟s demand for rights,
equal rights?
Blake: Very little, in fact the men did as much for us as we, at that particular convention, as we
could. We, both men and women, went all out for that, to bring that convention here to Grand
Rapids.
Interviewer: Would women in the Hill District that were associated with, what was the name of
your group? Did you have a name for your organization or…
Blake: Well, there was the National Women‟s Suffrage organization, and then there was the
State Women‟s Suffrage organization, and I suppose there was the Grand Rapids Equal Suffrage
Club.
Interviewer: Would there be meetings held at different women‟s home and one thing or another,
did you have regular meetings?
Blake: Oh, well, those would just be committee meetings, the, the big meetings were held in
halls like St. Cecilia‟s. That was one of the favorite places, the size and the, of course the
building itself has wonderful acoustics. Ladies Literary Club was another place where important
meetings were held. At that convention, as well as others, the Ladies Literary Club was open too.
Interviewer: Did the Ladies Literary Club have a regular clubhouse?

�7
Blake: Oh, yes, they, they had their own clubhouse, owned it, one of the first in the country to
build and own their own clubhouse. The St. Cecilia was another, it was the first musical
organization to build their own clubhouse, and own it. Both those buildings were very much used
in that era. Well, they still are.
Interviewer: Were they important social organizations?
Blake: Yes, they were both leaders in their own field. St. Cecilia in the field of music and the
Ladies Literary Club in the well, the field of general culture and literary work particularly. I
remember meeting Woodrow Wilson at the Ladies Literary Club. President Taft was there at one
time, I think he was the only president who was, [who] came to the Ladies Literary Club, during
his presidency.
Interviewer: Came here to Grand Rapids?
Blake: Yeah. To speak a the Ladies Literary Club, I think that while he was president, I think
he‟s the only president who ever did and it was Mrs. McKnight who got him to come.
Interviewer: How did she induce him to come?
Blake: She could, she could, I don‟t know how to put it, she could induce almost anybody to, to
come to Grand Rapids, if she thought it important,
Interviewer: Who was Mrs. McKnight?
Blake: Oh, well she was President of the Ladies Literary Club, she was one of the organizers and
Presidents of the “Alliance Française”, the French Club in Grand Rapids, she was a great
authority on are, she was a great traveler, European traveler, visited all the important places in
Paris, and came home and gave talks on it. She was one of the, one of the, shall I say social;
another adjective would be better, leaders in Grand Rapids, social, educational, and cultural
leaders in Grand Rapids. Mrs. William F. McKnight.
Interviewer: Was there, what was it what happened when Taft came? Did the city celebrate or
put on any big festivities?
Blake: There must have been but I don‟t remember. I probably was in school. No, I wouldn‟t
have been at school because he came on a Saturday, I remember that much. There probably was
a parade, I don‟t remember, that fact I cut out, but I can remember seeing him.
Interviewer: What did you do after you got out of college? Did you spend most of your time in
suffrage work?
Blake: I stayed home that one year, and worked through the campaign of nineteen twelve, but
that was the Michigan Campaign, and then after that I taught school.

�8
Interviewer: Where did you teach?
Blake: I taught in Hesperia for two years; I taught in Lowell for three years; I taught in Union
High School, Grand Rapids, for thirty-four years. That was an ideal school to teach in, perfectly
delightful.
Interviewer: Union, Grand Rapids Union High School?
Blake: Yeah.
Interviewer: What was considered the, the best high school in the city?
Blake: That was.
Interviewer: Grand Rapids Union?
Blake: And it wasn‟t because I taught there either. It a, we got that said, of course we, we
teachers, we had a good, a very good staff there at Union, and we all enjoyed our work and we
had good material. Our material was a melting pot; all sorts of nationalities were represented in,
in the student body. And the various teachers who did supply work, in all the high schools, there
were five high schools before I finished teaching, there was just one when I went to Central High
School, but when I, when there were five high schools and supply teachers had experience in
each one of those high schools, they said without question that Union High school was the best,
or that they enjoyed it the most, put it either way.
Interviewer: Central High School was the high school for the Hill District, wasn‟t it?
Blake: Yes, and that was the first full high school. That is twelve, had all four high school
grades, ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grades.
Interviewer: Didn‟t Union?
Blake: Union at different times had a different setup, as to grades. Now at one time, while I was
teaching, they had everything under one roof at Union, from the kindergarten up through the
twelfth grade, and an automobile repair shop, all in the same building. And I think the later years
that I was there, they began with the seventh grade, and that‟s what they call junior high, and
senior high, seventh, eighth and ninth were junior high: tenth, eleventh, and twelfth were senior
high. And of course now they use different names, middle school and so on. But ours were junior
and senior high. That was after Union had such a large enrollment that they couldn‟t have the
kindergarten grades in there anymore, so they went over to Harrison Park.
Interviewer: Did Union at one time serve as I understand it, they had three grades in the High
School, and then for the senior year students would transfer to Central.

�9
Blake: At one time. That was back before… that lasted up until nineteen six, I believe, when
there was just one graduating class in the whole city. And that was from Central. In Nineteen six,
I can remember that the tenth graders, the twelfth graders, had to come over from Union and take
their work in Central. And after that, they added the twelfth grade to Union.
Interviewer: Were you very active in the Ladies Literary Club?
Blake: No, in fact I was not a member…
Interviewer: Oh,
Blake: My mother was very active and she often took me as a guest when she could to the…
Interviewer: Is she one of the ones that help found the club?
Blake: I don‟t know, I don‟t think so but it must have been pretty nearly as early as that because
it wasn‟t a very old club at the time.
Interviewer: Why did the, were, well, did women, did a lot of women belong to the Ladies
Literary Club?
Blake: Oh yes, very, very active club.
Interviewer: Why…?
Blake: I think it still is.
Interviewer: What, for what reason would women become active in that club?
Blake: It was the only club of its kind in the city except for the West Side Ladies Literary Club,
or the West Side Literary Club, I think that was. And I don‟t know whether the west side club
antedates, I don‟t think it antedates the Ladies Literary Club, it may have been a branch, I don‟t
know. It may have been a branch of it, but that‟s a very old club too, the West Side Literary
Club. But I think the Ladies Literary Club was the first to organize, I think it was unique in the
country.
Interviewer: What kind of activities would they have at the club?
Blake: Well, mostly literary, of course, usually some music on their programs, speakers, the most
important speakers from the country that they could get and it depended very largely on the
Presidents who was the best getter of speakers from other places. And political interest came in,
of course non-partisan, but they were inte…, they were very alive club.
Interviewer: Would you say it was the center of cultural activity for women at that time?

�10
Blake: I divide honors between that and the St. Cecilia. Of course the St. Cecilia was primarily
music, but the two combined made the, quite a strong influence for culture in Grand Rapids. Of
course, a great many of the women were members of both, the St. Cecilia and the Ladies Literary
Club.
Interviewer: I‟m going to turn this tape over, it‟s almost out, and I have just a couple more
questions I won‟t be able to get them…
[End of side one]
Blake: Don‟t know whether he was born in Grand Rapids, but he was a Grand Rapids boy, and
we were, we were just devoted to the Library, why we spent a great deal of time there, went to
all the library lectures, ever since, in the room the other day with Mr. Collins, I had come in for
some other, no I had come in to see him and give him some papers I had, and I looked around
and I said, “well, this used to be the lecture room, didn‟t it?” Of course it‟s something else now,
but it was the old lecture room; when we went to every lecture there was, I believe, in it. And
they had a very lively program, in it, the library. It‟s always been in good hands, the library I
could remember that part. Then I, I put down women‟s suffrage because you mentioned that.
And then I scribbled down here, I guess how people lived, maybe suggestion. Now, what did we
used to like to do when we could do whatever we pleased? And then I thought of the streetcars
we had no horse of our own, and of course there weren‟t any automobiles then anyways as far as
I know, but we used to like to ride, to ride the streetcars. Cool off on a hot day, you‟d get on an
open streetcar. You‟ve seen pictures at least of open streetcars?
Interviewer: I‟m not sure.
Blake: Well, where the seats go right straight across. You get on from the side, you step on and
slide into your seat. They‟re all open, and of course when the cars are going we have a delightful
breeze. Made, made to order. You could ride from one end of the city to the other, you see,
which meant back from Reed‟s Lake to North Park or the Soldiers Home or a little beyond it, or
the pavilion out there at North Park where there is usually music or something going on. But
we‟d usually stay on the car, and it would turn around and then come back. We might have had
to pay another five cents to get back, but… But anyway, you could ride from one end of the city
to the other for five cents. So, I jotted down there, Wealthy- Scribner. And the names amused me
too, they did even then, we used to laugh over the names of our streetcars. Wealthy-Scribner,
Wealthy-Taylor, Cherry-Shawmut, aren‟t those silly names? But the Wealthy was because it
went down the length of Wealthy, Wealthy Avenue, they called it. Now it‟s called Wealthy
Street, but it was Wealthy Avenue that, that‟s where the line began. And Scribner was way over
on the west side. Well, Scribner Street‟s still there, and Wealthy Street‟s still there, but that was
the Wealthy-Scribner line. Well then the Wealthy-Taylor line was the longer still, because that
went way out Taylor Street, now that‟s on the west side too, way out to North Park. So no wait,
is Taylor on the west side?

�11
Interviewer: I don‟t even know where Taylor is…
Blake: There is, the river turns there some, Division, no, we didn‟t cross the river. No Taylor
isn‟t on the west side, I, I was wrong there, because we didn‟t cross the river when we went out
to North Park. So Taylor must be in that direction. But we went past what we call the Soldiers
Home, it‟s now called the Veteran‟s facility, and out to a pavilion that, that was there near the
bridge that did cross over to the west side. Now that, that bridge was way out at Comstock Park.
So Taylor must be out there, in that direction. I ought to know, but I don‟t; mixed up on that, but
the names Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, people from other cities used to say, “You have
the queerest names for your streets” Now the Shawmut, what a name, and Cherry, and Cherry,
Cherry Street, why Cherry Street? Well, maybe they had cherry trees once, I don‟t remember,
but Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, Reed‟s Lake, Cherry-Shawmut, John Ball Park, and they
thought John Ball Park must be a place where they have ball games; of course… there isn‟t any
out there. We had to explain that John Ball was one of the pioneers in Grand Rapids, that that
park was named after him. I hope you dump out a lot of this, you take them will you.
Interviewer: Do you think that, well you were a school teacher for a long time, how has the
society changed or has it changed from the days when you were growing up? And what do you
attribute that change to?
Blake: Well, of course the recent change I‟d say has taken place within the last four years. I think
its chaos now. Standards are, standards are broken down; many people have no standards, they
just think they can do what they please. Which I call communistic, they might as well be shipped
off to Russia the way they act. And the way they simply think they can help themselves to
anything. Gangs come around, throwing stones and, and…
Interviewer: Do you have that problem down here on College?
Blake: Right here, they haven‟t hit the house yet; they don‟t quite dare. And they can‟t quite
reach the house for they, it‟s, it‟s a gang that is sort of between little colored people and grown,
and they‟re, they‟re all, the gang is all colored. That isn‟t one that, that comes around here
occasionally, and they seem to recruit from somewhere over on Paris Avenue, which is almost
solid black. You know that, that block there, there are three white families that I know are still
living there, up near Cherry. But I think most of those in through here don‟t know how live. And
that has been, that neighborhood has run down, don‟t quote me on these things please, but that
neighborhood has run down for many years, because a real estate man who was buying up all the
properties just let it go to, well, go to pieces. And let the houses run down, didn‟t care who
rented them, but one of the former renters there told me that, that she was charged an enormous
rent for a horrible room in one of the houses back here, and well the backyards are, well they are
cleaned up a little bit, but they‟re not too good there. There are cars parked all over in the
backyards, and sometimes people climbing all over the tops of them. That one time there were
six, for heaven‟s sakes, don‟t quote me, I‟m, I‟m getting some of the dope on this area. But

�12
we‟ve had, and, and why, I don‟t know why, we‟ve suddenly changed. The lack of standards, the
lack of any idea of what‟s right nor wrong or is what, what‟s it seems to me that some of them
think well, whatever they want to do is right. Well they have a right to which isn‟t right at all.
They have no standards, but the gang here, made up of both little and big, are the one I dealt with
happened to be all colored. And they throw stones, and pieces of cement and bricks, I don‟t
know where they get the bricks, from the fence line, my back fence line there, and the garage
back there; I have a drive, short driveway on this side whenever I. They in order to make a lot of
no[ise], they could, they couldn‟t throw far enough to hit the house, there‟s a big back lawn
there, they really were a bunch of cowards and they didn‟t quite dare, but really what‟s fortunate
they didn‟t dare come over the fence. A, so they put a dishpan out so it would make a lot of noise
from where, they threw from the fence and threw towards the dishpan so it would make a
resounding noise, their bricks and their stones and oh boy… Well they did that one day when I
was here. I spend a part of everyday down here, trying to clear up this house, clear out a little
each day, but one morning when I came down from Oakwood Manor, I looked out the back
window and the lawn was scattered with bricks and stones they‟d been throwing „em, either the
night before or early morning, and I really should have had the police come up and look at it. But
it was the day that, that the trucks come along and clean up everything or they did for a while. So
I thought well, I better get this, this stuff out in front for the trucks to pick up so I did. But I
should have called the police out first, to take a look at it. I told them about it afterwards, but,
they said, “Did they do any damage to the house?” I said, well I can‟t prove it, but there is
broken glass around, but they, they were at a distance when they threw those things, and they
didn‟t hit the house. Damage was merely to my nerves…and house to clean up, but anyway, that
sort of thing seems to spring up all of a sudden. And, sometimes they swarm around the car out
there, there parked in the driveway and one day they came around, they must have had either a
stone or a brick in their hands, I don‟t know, and whanged against the house you know and one
these, oh, forget what, anyway, to make all the noise they could, trying to terrorize the, whoever
was inside the house. They didn‟t break a single glass, but I was afraid they would so I called the
police. And if the police had come at once they would have seen the whole gang of them. By the
time a policeman got up here, I had called a second time, I said I need the police, and I need
them now, well, I said, the gang‟s right here, and take a picture of them. And said well he‟s on
the way, well, the nice policeman was on the way, but when he came here…
Interviewer: They were gone:
Blake: They vanished into thin air, where they went and how, I don‟t know. It was just like that
and they were gone. And he asked me their names… Why, I said, “I don‟t know their names.”
“Well, what‟d they look like?” I said, “To me those colored people all look alike.” And, “What
did they wear?” Well, I said, “I can remember one wore a striped red and white sweater…” “Are
they good looking?” Well I said, “I don‟t know, their names, and I don‟t know who their parents
are, they‟re a gang that, that, gather themselves together, you know, and go in and out behind…
well, there‟s a big barn over there, that‟s a good place to hide, behind a red barn, and then there‟s

�13
a garage right next to me, back of this house if you ask them and they recruit, and then they come
around.” Well, now that‟s what we‟re up against, that lawlessness, all the … broken out and they
think they seem to have the right to be any where they want to, whether they want to play in the
back yard or where…
Interviewer: It wasn‟t like that when you were…
Blake: Well, no. this was private property, and if, in fact we almost always had the fence around
and mother had a fence with a gate that locked and she let in people she wanted her children to
play with, and kept out those she didn‟t. But that was way back, of course when your home was
your private property, your own affair, and now people think they have a right in anything. Well,
that‟s Communism, why not pack them off to Russia and leave them there, it that‟s… but that
seems to be a general feeling. And where it comes from…
Interviewer: Could you a…
Blake: But, it‟s to me a total reversal of what‟s right and what‟s wrong and what‟s decent and
what isn‟t. But you see I‟m very old fashioned. It‟s, it‟s awfully hard to take different reasons for
things.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Blake: What‟s back of it I don‟t know. Of course, the automobile began changing ways of life
for instance an all-day picnic at, at Ada or Cascade with a horse and buggy, now it‟s about,
doesn‟t take more than 30 minutes to drive, to drive an auto there, another 30 back. I think life
began changing then, but it was still a delightful living in the early days of the automobile. But
something has hit- is it war? Do you think war is back of what‟s the matter with us? We‟re
always fighting somewhere. If it isn‟t Vietnam it‟s somewhere else. I don‟t know what‟s, what‟s
the, but to me it, it‟s a, it‟s tragic. People, now this of course still part of the Heritage Hill district
and the people here are just hoping that they can stay here; they‟re watching and just hoping that
they can stay here. There are some lovely people across the street in one of the houses that was
there when, when we, we moved up here, one of the two houses that was on the other side of the
street, still there, sort of ice cream colored, the Magmoses[?] live there now. And they‟re hoping
they can stay there, that the, that the gangs that come around won‟t, won‟t get over on their side.
They don‟t know when it‟s going to run across the street… They say things aren‟t, you can‟t plan
ahead or be confident that you can do things that you used to do now, don‟t know, what you‟re
going to run up against. I don‟t know what‟s, I don‟t think anybody knows the answer. But it
seems to me sort of a communistic movement … that‟s been very gradually and subtly pushed
nearer and nearer to where we‟re living. Came from Detroit, here, and from where to Detroit I
goodness knows. Detroit‟s had an awful time, hasn‟t it? Just fright[ful]…

�14
INDEX

A

M

Alliance Française Club · 8
Anthony, Susan B. · 5, 6

McKnight, Mrs. · 7, 8

B

N

Blake, Adeline Louise "Alde" Tuck (Mother) · 2, 3, 4, 6, 9,
13
Blake, William Frederick (Father) · 2, 3, 4
Blodgett, Mrs. John · 6
Brouwer Family · 2

National Women’s Suffrage organization · 7

R
Reed’s Lake · 4, 11

C
Central High School · 8, 9
Cody Hotel · 1

G
Grand Rapids Equal Suffrage Club · 7

H
Herpolsheimer’s · 3

S
Shaw Family · 2
Shaw, Howard · 5
St. Cecilia's Music Society · 6, 7, 10
State Women’s Suffrage organization · 7

T
Taft, President · 7, 8

U

J

Union High School · 8, 9

John Ball Park · 3, 11
Judson Grocery Company · 2, 3

W

L
Ladies Literary Club · 7, 8, 9, 10

Wealthy Avenue School · 2
Wishart, Dr. · 5, 6
Women's Suffrage · 5, 6, 8, 11
Worden Grocery Company · 3
Wurzburg’s · 3

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                  <text>Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.</text>
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              <name>Creator</name>
              <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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                  <text>Various</text>
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              <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452"&gt;Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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              <name>Publisher</name>
              <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="407234">
                  <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections &amp; University Archives</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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            <element elementId="47">
              <name>Rights</name>
              <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="407235">
                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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              <name>Format</name>
              <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
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                <elementText elementTextId="407236">
                  <text>application/pdf; audio/mp3</text>
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              <name>Language</name>
              <description>A language of the resource</description>
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                  <text>eng</text>
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              <name>Type</name>
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                  <text>Text; Sound</text>
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              <name>Identifier</name>
              <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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                  <text>RHC-23</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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              <name>Coverage</name>
              <description>The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant</description>
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                  <text>1971 - 1977</text>
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          <element elementId="43">
            <name>Identifier</name>
            <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="407337">
                <text>RHC-23_14-15Blake</text>
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            <name>Title</name>
            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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                <text>Blake, Dorothy</text>
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            <name>Creator</name>
            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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                <text>Blake, Dorothy</text>
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            <name>Description</name>
            <description>An account of the resource</description>
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                <text>Miss Blake was a Radcliffe graduate and taught school at Union High School for 34 years. Miss Blake met both Woodrow Wilson and Howard Taft at the Lady's Literary Club. She also worked in the 1912 National campaign for women's suffrage movement.</text>
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          <element elementId="49">
            <name>Subject</name>
            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="407342">
                <text>Michigan--History</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="407343">
                <text>Local histories</text>
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                <text>Memoirs</text>
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                <text>Oral histories (document genre)</text>
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                <text>Grand Rapids (Mich.)</text>
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                <text>Personal narratives</text>
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                <text>Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="407349">
                <text>Grand Valley State University</text>
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                <text>Women</text>
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            <name>Language</name>
            <description>A language of the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="407351">
                <text>eng</text>
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          <element elementId="47">
            <name>Rights</name>
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              <elementText elementTextId="407352">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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            <name>Type</name>
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                <text>Text</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="407354">
                <text>Sound</text>
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            <name>Format</name>
            <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="407355">
                <text>application/pdf</text>
              </elementText>
              <elementText elementTextId="407356">
                <text>audio/mp3</text>
              </elementText>
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          </element>
          <element elementId="48">
            <name>Source</name>
            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="407358">
                <text>Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="40">
            <name>Date</name>
            <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="440390">
                <text>1971</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="45">
            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="1029709">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
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    </elementSetContainer>
  </item>
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