829 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a0951019a3c8e55fbebce46f6a80b41c.jpg 6f5a6d7ccc253102c8bc1a01ade92853 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_NE_44_1916_003 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1916-07-28 Title A name given to the resource Rhode Island: Brown University buildings Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a woman standing on a lawn in front of two buildings and a statue of a man riding a horse on the Brown University campus. Subject The topic of the resource Brown University Providence (R.I.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69296f97f1246f268afc05fa76d075d1.jpg 698098b00ad12a64d350eb9b2de93d5c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_NE_44_1916_002 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1916-07-28 Title A name given to the resource Rhode Island: Brown University dorm Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a woman standing in front of the Brown University dorm building. Subject The topic of the resource Brown University Providence (R.I.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db8009e87820f69524440c33b6671a2a.jpg 7e9b8c89c52868e93827893c5dc62ade Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_NE_44_1916_004 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1916-07-28 Title A name given to the resource Rhode Island: Capitol Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of the Rhode Island Capitol building. Subject The topic of the resource Providence (R.I.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/570dde24dac5d719691721cc7bb5f4ec.jpg 3a24f725d7429d7be618e0dc009dc1ea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_NE_44_1916_005 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1916-07-28 Title A name given to the resource Rhode Island: Providence at fountain Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a woman standing in front of a fountain. Subject The topic of the resource Providence (R.I.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d8c6e516d28fbf4075f666258fd0e9e.jpg 0d37e8c7161d640a5c369c0fddb9aa76 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bbd5b27f2ef37596ed702e8bfc621021.jpg 5dda25ffe9b632584b03ccaaed4f6f45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rhode Island. Loyal to the Union Description An account of the resource Design shows female with state coat of arms and "Loyal to the Union. State of Rhode Island." Design in red and blue on a white envelope. For sale by Wm. Ridenburgh, 132 & 134 Nassau St., N.Y. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-49_PE087 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Postal service--United States--History Covers (Philatety)--United States--History Patriotic envelopes Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05f60816fd6c038184c9ceb3f3f3b970.jpg 2d0870a37ee2cd5976eec3807b4878c9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7114e310d025673a01bed475b4f9ef79.jpg 5e16cdf7fbb1e2e8706853dab45fa4a6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rhode Island. The Loyal States, Union Description An account of the resource Design shows female with flag and state coat of arms and "Rhode Island, The Loyal States, Union." Design in blue on a white envelope. Designed and manufactured by Reagles & Co., 1 Chambers Street, N.Y. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-49_PE100 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Postal service--United States--History Covers (Philatety)--United States--History Patriotic envelopes Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8edce519d58f596b13d9af8a31891029.pdf 72060f3a0eee70684a64cf29dc42f6c2 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ricardo Lugo Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/14/2012 Runtime: 01:36:06 Biography and Description Oral history of Ricardo Lugo, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on December 14, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: All right, if you can, give me your name again. RICARDO LUGO: Sure. Ricardo Lugo. And do you want me to look at you or the camera, how does it... JJ: Yeah, no, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Go ahead and look at me. RL: Okay, okay. JJ: (inaudible) Okay. Ricardo? RL: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, Ricardo, if you can give me your full name, when -- you know, when you were born, and where you were born. RL: Okay. My name’s Ricardo Lugo, I was born in Chicago, in 1962. And the Cabrini-Green neighborhood’s where I was raised. JJ: Okay. And where in Cabrini-Green? RL: It was actually at 1230 North Larrabee, number 303. I remember that. JJ: Okay, at that time, and so, who were your parents (inaudible), and what were their names? RL: [Luis?] Lugo and [Marta?] Lugo. They came from Puerto Rico in the ’50s. JJ: Do you know what year, or (inaudible)? RL: I don’t know the exact year, but I remember the story is that they did come with three of my brothers, the first three that were born, and then they came here [00:01:00] and had nine more after that. JJ: Okay, over here, okay. 1 �RL: In Chicago. JJ: But it was, maybe the first part of the ’50s, mid ’50s, late ’50s, or -- you don’t know. Okay. RL: Yeah, I’m not sure. JJ: Where did they come from, what town? RL: Oh, Yauco, Puerto Rico. JJ: Yauco? RL: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Are they there now, or...? RL: My dad retired to Puerto Rico, to Yauco, Puerto Rico, and my mom also stayed with him for many years out there, you know, when he retired. He was a laborer, worked in the factory his whole life, until he retired. JJ: Do you know what factory, or...? RL: It was called Humboldt Manufacturing. JJ: Okay. RL: And ironically, they were located in Humboldt Park area. And so, he would go from Cabrini-Green, drive to work, and this factory in the Humboldt Park area, it was near Armitage and Whipple. Sort of in that area. And for that reason, he happened to see a house that we eventually moved to in Humboldt Park, 1920 North Humboldt. JJ: 1920 North Humboldt? RL: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. So you moved -- what year did you move, do you know? 2 �RL: [00:02:00] It was about ’70, 70-71. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah. JJ: So other than that, you lived in Cabrini-Green (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Yeah, from 1962 till 71, I lived in Cabrini-Green myself. And, you know, my whole family. JJ: Yeah, and your whole family. Okay, now what about your siblings, what are some of their names? RL: Okay, I have 12 siblings, 8 boys and 4 girls. I’ll start with the boys, and from the oldest down to the youngest, there’s [Antonio?] Lugo, [Raul?] Lugo, [Wilfredo?] Lugo, [William?] Lugo, [David?] Lugo, [Orlando?] Lugo, myself, and my younger brother, [Daniel?] Lugo. As for the women, there’s [Alicia?] Lugo, I don’t have to say their last name but [Lucy?] -- [Lucia?], [Elena?], and Teresa. JJ: And Teresa? Okay. RL: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay... Now, they all live in the same house all the time till 1971, or...? RL: I’m trying to thi-- When we moved to Humboldt Park, I think the -- [00:03:00] at least the -- the top three -- the three older brothers, I think, had already moved out at that point. So there may have been about, at least nine of us living in Humboldt Park -- in the house we moved into in Humboldt, 1920 North Humboldt. JJ: But they had moved out before moving to Humboldt Park? RL: Well, we lived in Cabrini. JJ: Okay. 3 �RL: And I’m assuming most of us, maybe except for a brother or two, may have already moved out as I was growing up in ’62 in Cabrini. And I think at that point we only had maybe a three-bedroom apartment. It was public housing. JJ: So where did people sleep, then? RL: Bunk beds were big. I know I slept with my little brother all the way through the house in Humboldt Park. I mean, we still had bunk beds, and I slept with my little brother. JJ: And were there other Puerto Ricans near where you were at, or...? RL: In Cabrini? In Cabrini-Green? Yeah, as a matter of fact, there was one particular family, they grew up with us, and then when we moved to Humboldt Park, they [00:04:00] lived in Cabrini. And so we were great friends. Then we moved to Humboldt Park, they actually lived there -- JJ: [Do you know?] the name of the family? RL: Yeah, the [Perez?] family. JJ: The Perez family? RL: [Clotilde?] Perez was his name. JJ: Okay. RL: And [George?] Perez was one of the sons, and [Gladys?] Perez, [Lolly?] Perez, her name. So it was the Perez family. And the father, Clotilde, he worked at the Palmer House. He still does, even now, like, I don’t know, almost 40 years later. JJ: He’s still working at the Palmer House? RL: Yeah. And he got jobs for my brothers, his sons, at the Palmer House. JJ: Okay. 4 �RL: (inaudible) JJ: So was the Palmer House a place where a lot of people worked at that time, or...? RL: Lotta Puerto Ricans. The Palmer House hotel was a Hilton hotel, it’s downtown, still there, the Palmer House hotel. And a lot of Puerto Ricans worked in the main kitchen, from when I got there, as a teenager. JJ: So you worked there, too. RL: Oh yeah, I worked there as a freshman in high school. And it helped pay for my education, actually. Well, a sophomore in high school, I [00:05:00] think it was. But it helped pay for my education. Yeah. JJ: Okay. What high school was that? RL: Holy Trinity. But actually, I studied at Prosser Vocational High School, and Prosser Vocational High School is located by Grand and Long, near Central Avenue. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah, on the west side of Chicago. And at that time, when I was there, 1980, that was where, pretty much, for the most part, most of the white gangs were there. As we know, Clemente High School had Latino gangs and things like that, but -- and that was one of the worst schools, Clemente, of course, but Prosser -- JJ: So who was in the gangs, that you (inaudible)? RL: The C-Notes, the Jousters, the Gaylords, Simon City Royals. I mean, like, every white gang in the city who was there. I remember the first day I went there as a freshman, my first day, September, I have a sweater on, you know, no big deal, 5 �right, it’s a little cool outside, with a belt on it. And I’m just standing outside waiting for the bell to ring [00:06:00] so I could start my first day as a high school kid. And a white guy came and grabbed me by my sweater, said, “C’mere.” So I followed him, I mean, he had me, of course, so I had to follow him. And he just took me a short distance and he showed me where my belt was. And, you know, the point was, I knew, had those senses about me, I mean, I grew up in Humboldt Park, I knew how to defend myself and so on, growing up in Humboldt Park. But I also knew I was in territory that was all white gang. And they were -I’m sure they were salivating for, you know, for all of them to jump me if I tried to make a move, so, of course. You know, but that was just the beginning of my high school career. JJ: And this was on what streets? RL: On Long. Long Avenue. JJ: You said Long -- Long Avenue. RL: Yeah. JJ: So that’s pretty west. RL: Yeah, that’s west, almost towards Central. JJ: Okay, but, by North Avenue or by Armitage, or...? RL: It’s on Grand, it’s Armitage, pero, then Armitage turns into Grand. JJ: Exactly. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah. RL: As you go west. Yeah. They’re still [00:07:00] there, they’re still there. JJ: You were just there because of the high school, so, because you were living more east of that. 6 �RL: Yeah, I mean, I could have gone to Clemente, but I wanted to go to a decent school, and that was a decent school in the area. Frankly, I know I wanted to go to Weber, which was a couple blocks away from Prosser, but, you know, Catholic school, but I couldn’t afford it, we couldn’t afford it, my family couldn’t afford it, so I went to public school. JJ: Okay, so, ’cause you mentioned there were some gangs in Clemente. RL: Oh yeah, ’cause, you know, growing up in Humboldt Park, I knew the Clemente gang issue too. JJ: So were you in the gang [at all?]? RL: No. Most of the guys in my neighborhood, I mean, they were in gangs, most of the guys in my neighborhood were in gangs. But because of my parents, obviously, I think, it was because of my -- there was a strong foundation from my parents, who were religious and strict. They kept me in, my brother -- none of my siblings were in gangs, per se. You know, and when I say “gangs,” ’cause I know my oldest brother, he was a Young Lord. But the Young Lords were a social organization, not what we consider gangs, you know, [00:08:00] nowadays, where they’re killing each other and things like that. And so, when I grew up, there were gangs, and there were the Ghetto Boys Organization, the Yates Boys Organization, Latin Kings, in my neighborhood, I’m just talking about my specific area. And I knew ’em all, they were all my friends, so I knew ’em all. And... JJ: But you didn’t get into that? RL: No, I used to, you know, hang out with them and things like that. JJ: And your family, the other brothers didn’t get into it? 7 �RL: No, no. None of us were in gangs. JJ: [As you were saying?]. RL: Yeah, I think, growing up with a family of seven brothers, you know, eight with me, it was almost like, you’re supposed to take care of yourself. We didn’t need a gang to protect you. JJ: “We have a group here.” RL: Huh? JJ: Were you saying “We have a group here,” is that what you’re saying? RL: Right, right, we have our own group. I mean, you know, it was almost like, the other brothers would think you’re a punk. JJ: [It wasn’t a?] gang, but you kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Yeah, it was almost an unwritten rule that you, you know, you should take care, you know, should be able to take care of yourself. JJ: Okay. RL: I mean, I never felt like I could even go to my brothers and ask for [00:09:00] help, because I always felt like, “Hey,” you know, “I had to deal with it,” you know. JJ: Yourself. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: Myself, right. And I didn’t need a gang, I didn’t need my brothers. JJ: And you didn’t believe in none of that gang philosophy type of...? RL: I mean, I understood it, ’cause I grew up in that environment, so I could see, you know, and understand it. But, in terms of believing in it, I mean, I wish, you know, all of us had opportunity to go to Weber High School, or, you know, places 8 �that other kids had opportunity. A lot of us just didn’t have the opportunity, myself included. Again, I went to Prosser. And my first two years -JJ: What was Prosser? (inaudible) RL: Prosser High School. JJ: Okay. RL: My first two years at that s-- JJ: Where is that located? I’m sorry. RL: I’m sorry? JJ: Where’s that located? RL: Over on the west side, by Grand and Long Street. JJ: Okay, the same thing. The same thing. RL: And remember, I started there, the gangs, white gangs. And I got D’s and F’s my first two years. Okay, D’s and F’s. That’s all I got. Why? Because it was more of a issue of survival than going there for an education. JJ: What do you mean? In [00:10:00] that area? RL: Well, yeah, with the gang members, you know. You know, like -- JJ: Like, you were just trying to figure out how to get to school [and back?]. RL: Right, exactly, exactly. ’Cause even within the school setting, inside the building, there was issues. And there was only a handful of us Latinos. You know, Dominicans, Cubans, Mexicans, myself, Puerto Rican. There was only a handful of us, maybe seven, eight guys and stuff, and other Latinas. But the white gangs would try to pick on us because they just assume, you know, because at that time Latino gangs were big, so, you know, and they were the enemies, so. Not 9 �that I was in a gang, but still, you’re Latino, teenagers, you know how they, machismo, from the white perspective, they think, “Oh,” you know, “good, we got some Latin guys and teenagers in here, so let’s pick on them.” JJ: So even though you weren’t in a gang, they were picking on you. RL: Yeah... JJ: Did they know that you weren’t in a gang? RL: I mean, but pi-- when I say picking on me, I mean they didn’t confront me, you know, by touching me, because that would [00:11:00] equal a fight again, but it was there, the tension was there. JJ: The tension, you felt it. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: Right, right, a tension was there, and you had, you know, smart enough to watch your back, and, yeah. But it wasn’t -- I mean, school wasn’t the main focus. JJ: Your focus at that time. RL: At that time for me, and I think Chicago public school system. It didn’t really help a lot of inner-city kids, you know, not today, not yesterday. I mean, the story seems to be the same anyway. JJ: Okay. What about grammar school? Did they ever help you in any way? RL: Yeah, it helped me -- JJ: What school did you [attend there?]? RL: Well, in Cabrini-Green, I went to Schiller School. And actually, I started with Head Start. And within our building, on the first floor, the ground floor, there was a classroom, for Head Start. I’m assuming I was four years old at the time -- JJ: Now you’re talking about -- how tall is that building (inaudible)? 10 �RL: 16 floors. JJ: 16 floors. So a downstairs, on the first floor. RL: Yeah, the ground level. The sidewalk level. And [00:12:00] when you bring up that six-- and, you know, there was 16 floors, and you could go to the top floor, and you could look over, and you see the lake. You know, just briefly, you see the blue outline. So you could actually see the l-- JJ: So that was pretty -- did you spend a lot of time up there, or...? RL: No, no, no, no, no, no. That building was dangerous too, you know, and plus I was a little kid -- JJ: What do you mean dangerous? What do you mean? RL: Luckily for me, I was a little kid, and so, when I say little kid, from the age of zero to eight, nine years old is when I grew up there. So I was able to go to the playground and things like that. But once you became a teenager and things like that, then, you know, other kids will start picking on you. For example, my brothers, they were robbed, you know, like, if you go walking down the street to the store, you know, “Hey, give me your money,” you know, that type of things. I mean, they had a -- what was it, Blackstone Rangers, I think at that time? JJ: Clybourn Corrupters, maybe. RL: Yeah, by Cooley High School, Cooley High School [at that park?]. JJ: Oh, Cooley High School was right there. RL: Yeah, and the Black gangs were around there, and, you know, that [00:13:00] area. Cabrini, it was the Black gangs. JJ: Right. 11 �RL: So, yeah, so there was a few of those. And, you know, they had to leave the building to go to high school, farther away. See, I was within the building, studying, so that helped. I mean, even my grade school, when I started first, second grade, wasn’t that far away. A block away, you could see it out the window. Yeah. So it wasn’t too bad, for a kid growing up there, but it was more dangerous for a teenager. You know. ’Cause again, you’re, you know, we’re considered white in Cabrini-Green, even though we’re Puerto Rican, Spanish, but, you know. JJ: Considered by who? By the -- RL: By the Black gang members, you know. Or even some of the people in the building, ’cause maybe they didn’t, you know, all they see is the white skin, or the brown skin, and think of it more as, you know, white people. Yeah. ’Cause I remember growing up, in the hallway going up the stairs one time, we lived in the third floor, and I saw on the wall it says, “The white people in 303 suck!” You know, I remember that [00:14:00] growing up as a kid, so. But it was fun for me, I mean, I got along great with the families, they got along great with us. It’s just, once you leave that building, going down the street, you could get jumped by outsiders. JJ: So the building was fun, you can hang out [in front of?] -- RL: Oh yeah, the building was great. JJ: Front and around the building, and the parking lot, and... RL: Right, exactly, it was great. It was fun. JJ: But once you went to the other [parts?] -- 12 �RL: Once you left the safety of that building, you know, now you engaging with strangers, or people who need some money, so they’re gonna rob you. It was totally different at that point. JJ: So how -- RL: And plus, a lot of people knew you. In the building they just know you, you know. And in those days, you could throw stuff off the -- from the floors, nowadays you - well, Cabrini-Green’s torn down now, but many years ago they did enclose it, so that you couldn’t throw things over the balconies and things like that. So you would throw a body over if you wanted in the old days. JJ: Throw a body over? RL: Yeah, if you wanted to. (laughter) I mean, you know. JJ: People threw bottles and [00:15:00] things like that, or...? RL: Yeah, one time, when I was a little kid, I was waiting, I don’t know why I was waiting outside, you know, and s-- you know, on the first floor, you could be under the building, and you’re protected from any debris or whatever. But for some reason I was on the sidewalk part, and I was waiting for somebody, you know, somebody, in those days, the milk delivery, it was a glass, milk was in glass, not, like, cartons or anything. So a bottle actually came, like, inches from me and just, I don’t know what floor it came from, but the point was, it was coming real fast, and it just splattered. It didn’t even scare me, because it happened so fast. You know, all it did was (sound effect) and it didn’t scare me, but then I just thought to myself, you know, “Dumbass, you shouldn’t even be 13 �there, take your [walk?].” The safety of the vestibule, you know, just be under the building a little bit. JJ: So, what kind of -- what was the school like then? You went to school right around, you said Schiller? What was that -- RL: Yeah, Schiller School, and you know who taught at that time, at that school, as a PE teacher? Jesse [00:16:00] White, secretary of state. JJ: Okay. He taught there? RL: He was actually a teacher at Schiller High School -- Schiller School, I’m sorry. JJ: Did you meet him, or...? RL: No, ’cause I was, you know, I was a little kid, I don’t even know if I crossed paths with him, maybe he might’ve been a PE teacher for the upper, you know, the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grader. But, yeah, he was from [that area?]. JJ: And there was a -- ’cause, around that time there was, like, the Old Town, that was near Old Town, too, right? RL: We weren’t that far away, but we were far away enough -- Division and Larrabee, so yeah. JJ: Enough that there was a separate culture, then (inaudible)? RL: Yeah, or -- yeah, kind of, maybe -- JJ: But there were Puerto Ricans around there, yeah? RL: Yeah, see, but I don’t remember that, ’cause again, I was a kid, so I wasn’t old enough to venture. You know, I was old -- that was my community, that 16-floor building was the extent of it. Unless we went to church, you know, we went to St. 14 �Francis of Assisi, where, at that time, was the first Hispanic mass. Spanish mass. JJ: Oh, you went there, your family went there? RL: Yeah, I was baptized at St. Sylvest-- St. Francis of [00:17:00] Assisi. And Maxwell Street was there, that’s where -- that was, like, the mall. JJ: So you remember that? But, I mean, what do you remember of that? RL: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, the Polish sausage, and mainly, my dad negotiating, I think I learned my negotiating skills from my dad, ’cause I could w-- I would watch him negotiate with the guy, and literally, you would think they were gonna fight, because they were going back and forth, you know. And then my dad would just leave, “Come on, let’s go.” JJ: Over clothes, [or something?]? RL: Right, anything. Gym shoes, coats, clothes, anything. And then we’d walk up the stairs, the owner, “Come back, come on, come on, I’ll give you the price, give you the price.” So, you know, my dad always seemed to win the arguments. But it was pretty fascinating watching that, because -- JJ: You’re talking about Maxwell Street, that’s [how they negotiated?]. RL: Yeah, Maxwell Street, that’s the way it -- JJ: I remember [that?]. RL: That was the way it worked. And then that Polish sausage place that’s famous now, for Maxwell Street Polish, started there, ’cause that was the lunch. That was the first mall for us Hispanics, anyway. I don’t know if there were malls elsewhere, like I said, ’cause we -- [00:18:00] our own environment is what it is, 15 �you know. You go live in your building, you go to church, and it happened to be St. Francis of Assisi, which is near, you know, Maxwell Street. And then there was another church, too, that we used to go to, St. Joseph, which was near Cooley. Cooley High School. So we’d go there also. JJ: So you remember the [area?]. I remember -- well, not St. Francis, but St. Joseph, I remember [that, yeah?]. But -- so, okay, so you remember St. Francis, that’s interesting. So then, you’re going to Schiller, what was Schiller like, [inside the?] school? RL: Schiller was good, it was a good school. It was walking distance -- JJ: Were there more Puerto Ricans there, or...? RL: No, again, it was still just a lot of African American kids and myself, you know, me and a few kids, Spanish. Yeah. I mean, but, what I remember is the African Americans. I had a great time, actually, as a little kid, meeting the, even the African American [00:19:00] women, you know, the girls, my age, stuff like that. I mean, ’cause you -- there was a laundry room on every floor, too. So sometimes, you know, you go in the laundry room and play. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. And the laundry room, they had cages in the laundry rooms. So, like, if people washed their clothes, they would hang up their clothes in the laundry room. We didn’t have a dryer, it was an old-fashioned washer. And then, to -- JJ: And then you just hang up your clothes (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: You hang up your clothes and then you lock it in that cage. JJ: And then they would dry (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- 16 �RL: It was, like, three cages per -- JJ: -- it would dry? And iron -- RL: Yeah, you just [pick it up?] and it dries. Yeah. JJ: And then, so what about the family, what about the entertainment, what was that like? RL: Yeah, it was great entertainment, ’cause it was all families. Basically, our families would get together, because, you know, they all came from Puerto Rico for the most part, and so, the entertainment was, you know, getting together, ’cause now you’re [00:20:00] working hard during the week, you got your kids, you gotta do all this. But on Sundays, it seemed that we’d go v-- you know, after church especially, we’d go visit families, and, or they’d visit us, and, you know, we’d just interact with the kids. Me being a kid, I interacted with my cousins, and it was fun. JJ: [Okay, was?] -- yeah, your cousins. Where were they living? RL: I had a cousin in particular who lived -- they lived, this family lived in -- the Quinones. Family lived -- my uncle and his wife and children, they lived by Wrigley Field, Wrigley Field, actually, over in that area. And so they had a nice -I remember they had a view of Wrigley Field, practically, you know, like, from far away you could see Wrigley Field. But, yeah, we interact -- JJ: You said Quinones? Were they -- were there Latin in them too, or...? RL: Yeah, well, yeah, because my mom is a Quinones, that’s her maiden name, and the reason why that’s, you know, it’s a good question, ’cause she had 13 -- she had 26 brothers and sisters in Yauco. 17 �JJ: In Yauco. RL: Yeah. JJ: [00:21:00] She’s from Yauco, too, then? RL: Yeah. So what happened was, my grandfather married, had 13 kids, and then she passed away, my grandmother, and so he remarried and had 13 more kids, so now my mom has 26 siblings. And the reason why, because they really [liked?] the Ponderosa, you know, they lived off the land, they had a lot of land, and they even had hired -- they would hire people. So that’s how my dad met my mom, because he was a hired hand also, working on the land and stuff like that. JJ: In Puer-- in Yauco. RL: In Yauco. So there was a lot of -- they had -- it was like the Ponderosa, I guess, you know, but mountainous, of course. JJ: Oh, Ponderosa, you mean it was like a plantation type of -- RL: Yeah, you know, but it’s all mountains and, you know. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [border?], yeah. RL: Yeah, I call it the Ponderosa. JJ: So they would hire -- so he would get hired by the other farmers to work on the food? RL: Right, my grandfather hired my dad. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah, as young teenagers that they are, making some money. JJ: Okay. So he told you about that, [00:22:00] or...? 18 �RL: So -- huh? Yeah, my dad met my mom, of course, and so that’s how that came about. And most of my uncles and aunts, they had a lot of kids themselves, see, so they were used to a big group of people, you know, within their own family, growing up with 26. So my parents had 12, and my aunt had 10, and other family members, you know, uncles and aunts, they had a lotta kids also. JJ: You have kids too, or no? RL: I have one boy, a seven-year-old boy. JJ: What’s his first name? RL: Jake. JJ: Jake, okay. RL: I mean, I -- JJ: And your wife’s name, what’s her name? RL: I’m divorced now, pero, because of this family background I’m describing, I also wanted six kids. [My aunties?] would remind me, “Hey, you always said you wanted six kids,” ’cause yeah, I love being around -- I love kids, ’cause that’s how, you know, you learn that from home and things like that. And ironically, in my case, and I was a good -- let me back up a little bit, I was a good boy, because when I was young as a teenager, people were having kids left and right as teenagers. You know, the gangbangers, and, you know, not even gangbangers, they were just young people who were [00:23:00] havin’ sex, and, you know, they didn’t know -- they weren’t educated in terms of sex education, so all of a sudden, a girl gets pregnant, and so now they have to deal with it. So I saw a lot of that in Humboldt Park. Luckily for me, I didn’t, because I was always 19 �afraid of getting a girl pregnant. Really, that was the key, and plus, my parents, you know, they wouldn’t have been happy, so you keep that in the back of your mind. And I wanted an education anyway, so funny thing is, okay, now I go -- I ended up going to law school and so on and so on, and I married twice. And both women couldn’t have children. So, you know, I did want -- still wanted my six kids, if possible, God willing, but right now I have one child. And, so... And he was born -- I was married to a public defender in Wisconsin. And then I got married and, you know, after Wisconsin, I got divorced, came back to Chicago [00:24:00] in 2000, and the second wife I married, she’s also a lawyer, from Iowa, and she lives here, works here in Chicago. And so, her best friend from third grade, all of a sudden, just told her, “Hey, I’ll carry your kid if you want.” So it was my ex-wife’s egg and my sperm, and, you know, this lady became a carrier for our child, so that’s how I got a seven-year-old boy. JJ: Okay. (inaudible) Jake. RL: Yeah, right? Exactly. JJ: What were you doing in Wisconsin, [I mean --?]? RL: I was a public defender. JJ: In Wisconsin? RL: In Wisconsin, ’cause what happened was -- JJ: You moved out there, I mean --? RL: Yeah, what happened was, I ended up getting a scholarship -- this is my story. When I applied to law school, well, let me back up a little bit more. I went to Illinois Benedictine College... 20 �JJ: Okay. RL: Okay, which is in Lisle, Illinois, not far by Naperville, Downers Grove. And, you know, it took me time to graduate, ’cause it’s a Catholic school, it’s expensive, so I would drop out, [00:25:00] get a job, go back, and live on campus. So, it took me about six years to graduate because I just kept, you know, my goal was to graduate, and I did. But towards the end is when I really, really got serious, and started pushing myself to get excellent grades. And that’s what I was trying to do, just get some excellent grades, and I did. And so I applied to law school. In University of Wi-- At that time, I wanted to just to go to a top 20 law school. That was my goal, that’s it. “Gonna apply to a top 20 law school, if I don’t get accepted, okay, different career choice.” You know. So, I luckily, thank God I got accepted at University of Wisconsin, which was a top 20 law school. And got a full scholarship on top of that. So then I went out there, they also had a good criminal program, which, you know, I, based on where I grew up, with criminals, if you wanna call it that, my buddies, you know, I know that stuff. I became a [00:26:00] public defender. I wanted to help people. Why? Because I saw it, I saw the injustice on the street, I saw police brutality, I saw police do things. And not all -- and, like any profession, there’s good, bad, and ugly. So not all cops are bad, not all teachers are bad, not all lawyers are bad. I mean, I’ve seen some bad lawyers, you know. So in every profession, there’s some great teachers out there who love to do what they do, there’s some bad teachers who don’t care. I mean, so I’ve seen it all, you know. Growing up with 12 kids, growing up in Cabrini, Humboldt Park, you know, there’s a lotta stuff out there 21 �that, luckily for me, I was able to experience. So then I became a public defender after I graduated from law school. And I stayed out there, Racine, Wisconsin, for seven years and Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for three years. And I really loved working with juveniles, that was really what, for me, it was almost like a dream come true. You know, here I am, cross-examining a cop, basically beatin’ em up verbally. Basically, [00:27:00] helping my client in a way that, maybe the stop was illegal. Maybe the cops searched him illegally, no rights. People have -- there’s constitutional rights that we all have, most of us don’t know it though, ’cause for whatever reason, they don’t really -- they teach that in some schools, but some schools maybe just don’t, but. I felt good protecting the rights of individuals, especially based on what I saw as a kid. JJ: So you met your wife there, and then... RL: Actually, when I went to go visit that school, I met my wife-to-be. It was like a one-day visit, and she invited me to a party where the other Latino students were having law students, and I said, “No, I gotta go back to Chicago,” so, you know. And then when I did go to law school, she was a third-year law student and I was a first-year. And so we, you know, I could tell there was some connection there, [00:28:00] but my goal was to go to law school and get an education. And I was not gonna get involved in a relationship that may, you know, take my focus off what I came there to do. So, we were great friends, but I never dated her in law school. And ironically, I ended up in Racine as a public defender, where she was working in Racine as a public defender. I tried to go to Kenosha, but they needed me in Racine, so they put me in Racine, ’cause Kenosha was closer to 22 �Chicago and I wanted to be closer to Chicago. So that’s why I ended up in Racine. JJ: Now, what about your other siblings? What kind of work did they get into? RL: Well, starting from the top, my oldest brother, growing up, he worked at Sandburg Super Market, which is over there in Lincoln Park by North Avenue and Clark. And so, based on that experience -- JJ: Actually, by Old Town, it’s more like Old Town, we used to call it La Clark, the neighborhood, La Clark. RL: Right, right, near Old Town, también, exactly. JJ: Right, yeah. RL: So, yeah, ’cause Old Town is just a few blocks [00:29:00] west of there. JJ: Right, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [it’s?] the border. RL: Because, yeah, where he was was Clark, and Old Town’s on Wells, just a few blocks to the west. JJ: Okay, so he worked there... RL: So he worked there, and he learned a lot about the supermarket business. And eventually, he ended up buying and opening his own supermarket. I remember he called it -- JJ: What’s the name of it? RL: He called it [Lugo Warehouse Supermarket?]. Yeah. JJ: And was it located (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: It was on the west side, by North Avenue, going towards [Austin?] over there. Yeah, so for many years, he had that. Eventually he opened one up in Elgin, you 23 �know, he closed that one and went to Elgin and opened a bigger supermarket. So he was doing pretty well for himself, invested in property and real estate, so he was doing well for himself. And then there was my -JJ: In Elgin, or in Chicago? RL: In Chicago, in Chicago. Yeah. And then he ended up living in Skokie during those years, that’s where he was living with two boys, you know, my [00:30:00] nephews, and his wife. And then my other brother, Raul, the second oldest, the former Young Lord, he was in the computer -- he worked for a computer company, I forget the name of it. Or was it...? I remember he worked for Continental Can Company for many years first, and ended up doing a lot of computer stuff when computers were still(inaudible) and coming out, and things like that. JJ: Actually, Gladys was a Young Lord, too. His -- RL: Oh, his wife, Gladys. JJ: Yeah, (inaudible) was a Young Lord too. RL: Right. Right, she worked for the federal system for -- till she’s gonna -- she’s still working there. JJ: And her brother [Edwin?] was also a Young Lord. RL: Right, Edwin, I remember. JJ: [Lots of?] Young Lords in that family there. RL: So I knew that family forever, ’cause they actually lived over by Armitage, and Halsted, and that area. JJ: Yeah, so they moved in that area, they were living there, yeah. 24 �RL: Right? I remember visiting them. JJ: Right by the church, right by the church. RL: Right by the church, I used to go there. Yeah. JJ: Now, you were only, like, seven years old, though, and the Young Lords were -had the church and all, you don’t remember any of that? RL: No, I just remember visiting my [00:31:00] brother’s home, just to visit, you know, the family visit. But yeah, the other things, I wouldn’t know anything about, or didn’t notice it because, you know, we didn’t hang out on the street or anything like that, we’d just visit family, and I was a kid. JJ: Do you remember the neighborhood at all, how it was, was it...? RL: Yeah, it was nice, I mean, ’cause I [still?] could picture the train station right there in Armitage, and I used to walk through that area growing up, as a teenager I used to walk in that area también. But I remember it was still -- in those days everything was simple, you know, it wasn’t gentrified, is what I mean, the difference. Right now, you go there, there’s nightlife, and restaurants, and bars, and the noise, you know, and it’s a whole different -- in those days, it was just quiet and simple. You know? People -- just blue-collar people. JJ: Like worker, working people. RL: Yeah, just, yeah, exactly. Yeah, just (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Was there a lot of violence there or anything, like a Humboldt Park [gang leader?], or...? 25 �RL: [00:32:00] Not in that area, not in my brother’s area, but there was a lot of violence in my area. Yeah. Growing up, we had the highest homicide rate in the nation. JJ: Right, in that area, in the Cabrini-Green area. RL: No, no, in Humboldt Park. JJ: Oh, in Humboldt Park, oh yeah. RL: Humboldt Park, as a teenager. JJ: Oh, so when you were [growing up?]. RL: And I remember seeing that sometimes, in the newspaper, when I was reading it, ’cause I used to read the paper all the time, ever since I was in third grade, going to St. Sylvester, ’cause -- see, I went to Schiller, and then when we moved to Humboldt Park, my parents, you know, I finished my second grade at Schiller, and then we went to St. Sylvester. The beginning -- JJ: Oh, so you went to school at St. Sylvester, okay. RL: Yeah, the beginning of the school year, we started -- third grade, for me, and then I had a sibling in fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth -- you know, ’cause there was so many of us, so we had every -- everybody was in a different grade at St. Sylvester when we transferred. JJ: And actually, that became a big stronghold, Puerto Rican stronghold, in terms of the church. RL: Oh yeah, St. Sylvester church. JJ: And my uncle was part of that too. RL: Yeah. [00:33:00] Very strong, my parents and other -- you know, their friends -- 26 �JJ: And your friends were there at that [school?]? RL: Yeah, they had a very, very strong Puerto Rican community within the church and -- JJ: Caballeros de San Juan. RL: Caballeros San Juan, my dad was a member of that. JJ: Oh, he was a member? RL: Oh yeah. JJ: At St. Sylvester? RL: It started at St. Francis of Assisi. JJ: Oh, so he started there as a Caballero de San Juan. RL: Oh yeah, yeah, their first wave of I’m assuming, you know, the ’50s is when the big wave of Puerto Ricans came. JJ: Right. RL: And that’s when they started all these organizations, you know, to... JJ: Okay, so your mo-- that’s why you were saying your mother and your father were kinda strict. Did you say that, “strict,” or am I putting that (inaudible)? RL: No, no, “strict,” meaning they’ll whip your ass in a minute with a belt. (laughter) Yeah. (inaudible) clarify, the strict part, not just, “Don’t do that or I’ll get mad,” you know, nah, they don’t even -- you do that, you just, you’re gonna get a belt. JJ: A belt whooping. (laughs) RL: You’re gonna know it in a second, not to do it. Which was very effective, because, you know, it’s hard raising 12 kids, [00:34:00] first of all, but then the elements on the streets. I give ’em credit because, you know, bottom line, I was 27 �wrong. Even though, as a kid, you’re thinking, “What am I doing wrong?” I mean, this is just, kiddie stuff, you know, this is just, teenage stuff, or kid stuff, I mean, “Everybody else is doing it.” But luckily, they kept me on the straight and narrow with that. And I think that was it too, you know, I wasn’t afraid of the streets, I was more afraid of my parents. You know? I mean, not that these guys on the streets couldn’t do, yeah, my parents, you know, that belt, shit, you know. And then after a while, the belt didn’t hurt! I mean, I could get hit with a belt and it wouldn’t hurt me. It got to the point where the ironing cord, you know, the white and black ironing cord, that shit hurts! (laughter) ’Cause, you know, the belt didn’t hurt, and they knew it, and after a while. And then you cry before they even hit you with a belt anyway, and you act like you’re dead before they even touch you, and, [00:35:00] you know, all that stuff didn’t work though. (laughs) So no, I think it really helped, though. It really, really helped. Yeah, because... JJ: They were also religious, or no? RL: Yeah, very religious. We’d go to church every Sunday, and then we’d also pray at night, the rosary. Yeah, they had a little, I don’t know, sanctuary or something? JJ: Altar? RL: Yeah, a little altar at home, you know, made out of wood and stuff like that. And I have a picture of it too, ’cause I got some pictures just recently of the inside of, you know, our apartment. JJ: We probably are gonna call you for some pictures. 28 �RL: Yeah, and I hadn’t seen these until my aunt passed away recently, about June or July, in July she passed away. And I never really saw -- JJ: Is there any way you can put ’em on a disc, or anything, or...? RL: Shoot, I don’t know how to do -- I’m not too electronically inclined, you know, but I’ll see what I can do, ’cause they’re at work too, I coulda brought ’em with me. Yeah. JJ: We have a scanner, but we’re gonna take off tonight (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Yeah, in the background, I could see the [00:36:00] altar, you know, like, “Wow, check that out.” JJ: Yeah, we had an altar too, but my mother got into that spirit -- (Spanish) [00:36:06]. RL: Oh, santería? JJ: San-- not santería, something similar. RL: Something similar? JJ: [Not real deep?]. RL: Right, right. JJ: But, so I didn’t know what -- was -- “Are we doing the Catholic [name?] things today, or the spiritual?” But yours was all Catholic. RL: Oh yeah, ours was straight up Catholic. JJ: They didn’t -- (Spanish) [00:36:23]? RL: Oh, no, no, no, they wouldn’t. JJ: So it wasn’t [into that?] 29 �RL: They wouldn’t even go there, you know. JJ: So they don’t (inaudible)? RL: Right. So it was all Catholic, we’d say the rosary, and then we had to kneel down, cement floor. You know, during the part of the rosary where you’re supposed to kneel down, I guess, and we’d do it as a family, all of us. We’d fall asleep, but hey, you fall asleep, you -- there’d be times they would take out that belt. “Let’s see who falls asleep now!” (laughter) JJ: That was a thing [at night?], a regular thing. RL: Yeah, it was a regular thing. Yeah. JJ: ’Cause I remember in the ’40s, [they had to do that?] in [00:37:00] Puerto Rico, so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Oh, okay. JJ: They just brought the culture here. RL: Yeah, exactly. ’Cause I’m sure it was going on over there, and they just -- yeah, they brought it over here. The rosary, you know, my dad would lead the rosary, and we’d all read Spanish -- everything was in Spanish, to this day I only speak to my parents in Spanish. You know, that’s the only way we spoke to them growing up, in Spanish. JJ: But they spoke English, though. RL: Not necessarily. My dad, of course, ’cause he started working in the factories, so he picked up the language easier. My mom, she was working when she moved back -- 30 �JJ: What kind of work did your mom do? Your father was in a factory (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Right. And my mom started working when she came back -- when she came from Puerto Rico with the three children, she worked at the Oscar Mayer plant over by Cooley High. The Oscar Mayer plant was there. And I’m sure it was a good job, and things like that, but once she started having more kids, then she had to drop out and not work to stay home and take care of the kids. JJ: Did she -- a lot of years that she worked at Oscar Mayer, or...? RL: See, I wonder how many years... JJ: (inaudible) RL: But she was having kids so fast, so maybe it wasn’t [00:38:00] that many years, but, you know, I’m assuming she might have worked there thr-- four years, or something. Yeah. JJ: [And we were asking?] about the other sibling, what kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Oh, then Raul, then Wilfredo, my third brother. Oldest brother. He’s a factory worker, blue-collar. Then there’s Alicia, my sister, she clerked for a judge, worked as a court clerk for -- to this day, in the federal court. JJ: In the federal court? RL: In the federal court, downtown. JJ: Is she still -- how many years? I mean, has she worked a lotta years? RL: Yeah, she could retire now. JJ: She’s retired? 31 �RL: She’s already [beyond, yeah?]. She just -- JJ: [This is the?] federal judge, in downtown? RL: Yes. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah, with the federal judges, right there on Dearborn. And things like that. And then, Dearborn and Jackson. And then, who comes after? William, my brother William. He worked -- he went to the service, and then he ended up with a railroad, one of the railroad companies, and now he’s with United Airlines. [00:39:00] And then David, the brother after him, he worked for the railroad also, still does to this day. And then there was the brother named Orlando, and I’m going in descending order, so, you know, three boys, one girl, then three more boys, and then another girl. So then the third boy out of that order, Orlando, he passed away around eight-- he was around 18. He was sort of the black sheep in the family, he got caught up on the streets a little more than the rest of us, and he ended up owing some guy some money and the guy stabbed him to death. And I remember getting that call as a 16-year-old, you know, they called the house and I remember picking it up and talking to the police officer, asking us to, you know, come identify the body. Yeah, so. JJ: So you got [the call?], they told you to come and identify the body? RL: Yeah, I remember telling my dad, and I went with them, yeah. Yeah, so, I remember that. JJ: So you guys were pretty tight-knit (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Oh, yeah, yeah. 32 �JJ: Pretty much, or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:40:00] It was a big thing. Yeah. It was... Yeah, we were pretty tight, yeah. And then after Orlando came Lucy, who’s a year older than me. She ended up going to -- well, the first oldest of the girls, I think she was the first one to go to college. She went to Rosary College, which is Dominican University now. And then Lucia -- then our other brothers, well, three of ’em went to the service, and then Lucia, the sister older than me, one year older, she ended up going to Loyola University, and graduating from there. And then there was me. JJ: So what’s she doing now? [I mean, she graduated?]? RL: She works for the U.S. probations department. In the computers -- JJ: Oh, computer? RL: In computers. And she’s been there many, many, many years also. Yeah. So she could retire, I’m sure, soon. And then... Let’s see... Elena, who was one year younger than me, she graduated [00:41:00] from Dominican University, you know, Rosary College. And, where does she work? She works for an insurance company. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah. And then after her, Teresa, my other sister -- JJ: And I think I met Teresa, she went to Michigan for one of the camps that we had. RL: Oh, really? Oh, okay. JJ: I think, yeah. 33 �RL: She’s more of a businesswoman, so, she had a couple of stores in Oak Park, clothing stores. JJ: Clothing? RL: Uh-huh. JJ: Now one of them had a, was it a beauty salon or something? Was that Lucia or something? (inaudible) RL: Oh, matter of fact, Lucy, she has a restaurant in -- with her husband. They have a restaurant in Oak Park -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Okay, [that’s a restaurant?] -- RL: -- right now, called Hemmingway Bistro. JJ: Hemmingway Bistro... RL: Very good restaurant. They’ve been there over 10 years now. They’re gonna actually open a -- they bought another building in Oak Park, and they’re gonna, I believe, have another restaurant. JJ: Yeah, ’cause I think Teresa left that number for us to call. RL: Oh, okay. JJ: And if we had other events or anything like that. RL: Oh, okay. And then the youngest is [Danny?], he graduated from Rosary College, you know, [00:42:00] Dominican University, they call it now. Yeah, and so I was the only one that went beyond college in terms of graduate studies, which was, in my case, was law school. JJ: And recently, you were involved in, was that the first time you ran for judge? 34 �RL: Yeah, one thing I always knew I was gonna do when I went to Wisconsin, when I even mar-- before I even married my first wife in Wisconsin, I told her, “Hey, I’m going back to Chicago.” You know, so, because she was born and raised in Wisconsin, and so I knew, you know, lotta Wisconsin people don’t really like to come to Chicago, and a lotta Chicago people don’t like to go to Wisconsin. So I told her, I said, “Before I marry you, I gotta let you know, I’m moving back to Chicago at some point in my career, so -- to get involved in politics, so, let me know if you can handle that.” So she, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” So that was all good. And the reason why I was always intrigued by politics is, first of all, I used to read the paper since third grade. The newspaper, the daily paper here in Chicago. ’Cause there was a store in the neighborhood, you know, [00:43:00] Puerto Rican-owned, regular mom-and-pop place, and the store owner would give me a dime, at that time, for a newspaper, that’s what it was, in the box, the Sun-Times box, or whatever, the newspaper. And I’d take two of ’em, give the store owner one, and take one with me as I walked to school. So I would read the sports, I was more into the sports and stuff like that, and the teachers, when I get to school, they would take the paper, ’cause they wanna read it anyway, so they’d read it and give it back to me. So I was always reading about Chicago history, and the sports, and then I’d read the news, also. But the main thing was, during one particular period was the Harold Washington days. I mean, that was a fascinating time to be in Chicago, if you wanna learn about politics, that was some crazy stuff. Crazy stuff. I mean, it was cold-blooded, it was racial, it was everything that politics shouldn’t be. It was. I mean, it was just cold-blooded. 35 �But, the beauty of it was, it galvanized the people. The [00:44:00] Latinos, the African Americans, people who were disenfranchised, I mean, these people had no-- we really didn’t have nothing going on in our communities, in terms of not only political power, but services. Basic services. We all pay our taxes, we’re supposed to have equal services, our schools were real bad. Basic services were real bad, our neighborhoods were run down. And the way you fight that is, you know, some political juice. I mean, we saw that. We saw it in those days. You go in the north side, go in different parts of the city, where different aldermen have some pull, and they took care of their neighborhoods. Ours were treated like garbage, really, a dump. So then, once Harold Washington came about, which was, in those days, a miracle, for a Black man to run Chicago, we’re talking 25 years ago? And he won, because of the people. The power of the people, it was fascinating. It was cool. It was very nice. Unfortunately, he passed away in his second term, [00:45:00] but his first term wasn’t easy. The first term, you know, all the politicians that were aldermen in those days, a majority were white, they were just pushing back, they were trying to get rid of him, they were trying to discipli-- you know, disrespect him, they were doing whatever they could to retain their power. I mean, Chicago was a power-driven city. And still is. But... Unfortunately, he, you know, had a heart attack, 25 years ago. And in his second term, he was gonna do a lot, because again, the first term, he was being held back a lot. But, the second term, he was gonna do a lot, but he passed away. So anyway, and I was involved, I had cousins who were involved, Luisa Quinones and Noemy Quinones, they were involved in that, and I 36 �had a good buddy, [Oscar Ortiz?], at that time who grew up with me, he was involved in that, so I would watch. You know, I would see that. And one thing I learned, though, by watching all this, was that, if you really wanna be involved [00:46:00] in a more advanced way, I don’t know what the word -- you know, if you wanna really be involved, get a law degree, or be somebody. ’Cause the people -- you know, most of the people that I knew were door-knockers. I didn’t do that, I never knocked on doors, but I saw it, and they were mainly the people who were -- who didn’t have, really, the college degree and things like that, it seemed like those who were more educated had higher positions in the political arena. So if you were a lawyer, if you were, you know, higher education, whatever, master’s, you seemed to have more ability to do things. For the community, especially, too. So my -- what I saw from all that was, I gotta, you know, I gotta educate myself. And then I’ll come back, ’cause I don’t wanna be a door-knocker. I wanna be somebody that, when I sit at the table, we could talk, and they won’t try to treat me as a, you know, [00:47:00] less than they should. Anyway, and we should all be equal, of course, but sometimes the lack of education could hinder that. So. JJ: [So, you were?]... RL: So, going back to your point, yes, I ran for judge. I ran for judge in the March primaries. So, to me, that was a big thing, ’cause I knew that’s what I wanted to do in terms of coming back to Chicago, run for a political office, get involved in a political arena. But what also helped me to get into the political arena was the job I have, and I still can really have, with the Cook County Clerk of Court. When 37 �I got that job, I was very, very happy, because I knew, “Okay good, I could finally get into the political arena. ’Cause I’m gonna work for elected official, and now I could see how,” you know, “the system works from the inside now.” Before, I was an outsider, as a kid. Now I could actually come here, not only as a lawyer, but now I can work with an elected official, and get a bird’s-eye view of what goes on. And, [00:48:00] you know, and hopefully make my move, which was running for judge. And... JJ: So how did that work, I mean, how’d you get that going, and...? RL: You know, and I had my own way of thinking, as to how people should run for office, or how people should do what they have to do to get elected. My thing was, you know, you should knock on people’s doors and get to know people, you should go to train stations and get to know people, you should go to churches, you should go to the community and introduce yourself and let them know what you’re doing and why you wanna do it. And I did, I did it the old-fashioned way. People don’t do that anymore, I did it the old-fashioned way, and it worked. Did I win? No, but did it really, you know, elevate me to a position of awareness? Yeah. Yeah. And then, I think I was doing things that were forgotten traits, you know, the political process, which is to actually get out there, you know. JJ: And [00:49:00] did you build, like, your own organization and work with the Democratic machine, or [no?]? RL: Well, yeah, that’s the way it works, I remember being at St. Sylvester with my petition, you know, you needed 1,000 signatures. I was by myself, with that one sheet of paper, or that one pen and those sheets of paper, collecting signatures. 38 �But I also knew, the reason why I was doing it, too, I also knew that it was gonna be a snowball effect. I knew that it was gonna be a tiny snowball, me by myself, but I knew as things -- people got to know me, and as I was out there doing what I had to do, that that snowball was gonna progress as time went on. And election was in March, I was out there in September, which was unheard of, really, for somebody to be out there in September for a March, six-months-later election. ’Cause they don’t really get out there till way later, you know, in the game. But I was out th-- I knew what -- I knew I had a lotta work to do. I was by myself, [00:50:00] but I -- again, I knew that snowball effect. And it happened that way. People started helping me, getting involved, they got to know me, and volunteers would call, people I didn’t know, you know. Friends -- it’s funny, ’cause I remember sometimes I said, you know, “Friends became strangers and strangers became friends.” Because a lot of people that I didn’t know would help me, people that I thought would help me weren’t helping me. And because I’m the type of guy, I will help anybody, you know, I won’t ask for anything in return. But yet, I saw that some people didn’t help me when I needed them, but that was okay, because that’s how you learn, you continue learning about people and situations. And so, it was all good. It was a lot of work, it was a lot of work, I was up in the morning at the trains, I was at trains at night, I was at church on Sunday, Saturdays I had a group of people knocking on doors, they said, “Judges don’t knock on --” People would respond, “Are you running for judge? Judges don’t come looking for votes.” You know. ’Cause they [00:51:00] don’t, 39 �judges don’t knock on doors. I was doing things the way I thought it should be done. It was pretty exciting, though. JJ: So you had some opponents, or...? RL: Yeah, there were five people running. JJ: Okay. RL: There was four guys, and one female. The female was the Democratic-slated candidate, she was Puerto Rican. This other guy that was running was Puerto Rican, myself, Puerto Rican, and two Anglos were running. And -- JJ: And your area, what was the boundaries? RL: There was 10 wards, which included Humboldt Park -- JJ: There were 10 wards, okay. RL: -- most of the minority wards. Majority -- a lot of the minority wards. You know, Logan Square, Humboldt Park, going all the way west, you know, Chicago, west, almost towards Central, practically, you know, Laramie. It would go as far -- it was a lot, it was 10 wards, which is, I didn’t realize it was gonna be that much work, but hey, I had to do it. And it was great ’cause, the funny thing is, ’cause the three Puerto Ricans, [00:52:00] we all had mutual friends, so it was kinda hard to -- some of your friends won’t support you because they were supporting this person, or they were supporting that person, so it’s kind of an interesting scenario going on there. The Democratic-slated candidate, the Puerto Rican female, she ended up winning. And luckily, her and I -- I went in there with nothing but respect, I did not go in there to engage in dirty politics, ’cause I don’t see a need for that. So I came out looking good in this election because I was -- 40 �the Democratic Party saw that I was just out there doing what I had to do to try to win. I wasn’t trying to step on somebody’s toe to do it, I was just out there to do it, the old-fashioned way. Let the people decide. JJ: So why didn’t you try to get in the Democratic slate at that time? RL: I did. I actually did. Because what you do is, you go in front of the committee, there’s like 10 of ’em, and then they vote and decide. JJ: 10 because there were 10 wards, or...? RL: Exactly. One committee member per ward. JJ: [00:53:00] So you went in front of the committee of the ward? RL: Yeah. So all of us did, there was, like, four or five of us, you know, candidates, who met up, at a restaurant, and then the committee were in a room. So we go in one by one, and basically sell yourself, and explain why you want them to back you and why they should back you and things like that. So they ended up backing the Puerto Rican female. JJ: But then you decided anyway. You were just stubborn, or...? RL: No, because what happened was, at that time, it was just a matter of, you know, deciding what you wanna do as the days went by, and things like that. And I just saw, too, I was working hard, and I didn’t wanna -- remember, it started as a little snowball, now it seemed like a big snowball, and it was hard, not to -- people counting on you. People helping you. People believing in you. [00:54:00] And that’s -- it would’ve been hard to drop out of the race, it would’ve been hard, so, you know. But... JJ: So you went all the way through with (inaudible)? 41 �RL: Yeah, I went all the way through. JJ: And how did you do it? I mean, how... RL: I ended up coming in last place. The guy ahead of me, he had -- the guy ahead of me, the Puerto Rican guy, he had the former judge position, he retired, the former judge backing him, other politicians backing him, and yet he wasn’t even that far ahead of me. I didn’t have anybody backing me, any politicians or anything. Which was amazing. And limited resources, in terms of putting money out into the campaign. I mean, one person who lost in the race, the Anglo guy, one of the Anglo guys, he spent like 200,000. I mean, that’s a lot of money. JJ: Right. RL: And he didn’t win. Again, the Puerto Rican guy, he had all these politicians backing him, and he only had maybe [00:55:00] 400 more votes than me. So, I actually came out looking real good, based on the lack of resources, based on the lack of support. But I had the support of the community, which was very important. JJ: So did you set up an office, or no? RL: No. JJ: You didn’t [at the time?]? RL: No, what we’d do is we’d meet once a week, the committee of us, and we strategized what we’d do that weekend, Saturday, Sunday. So every Wednesday, we’d meet, we had some wine, some food, you know, just relax and think about, “Okay, what’s our next move? Where we gonna go on Saturday and Sunday?” What fundraiser we may have, things like that. 42 �JJ: So you were doing fundraisers and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Yeah, that was, you know, so I -- my fundraisers were not typical, “Come and support me.” ’Cause, “Who are you?” Nobody’s gonna come. So I did more of a marketing thing, like, yeah, sure, “Support me,” but [00:56:00] it was more of a party type of thing I was advertising. I mean, it was a party, it was food, it was drinks, dancing, you know, it’s a good cause, so... JJ: And that cause, your main cause, what was your main cause? RL: Me. (laughs) You know what I’m saying? Support my candidacy. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Support your candidacy. RL: But that wasn’t the focus, the focus was, “Let’s have fun and do this.” You know? JJ: Okay, all right. So it was civil. RL: And then I know, you know what -- JJ: Like a civic thing. RL: Right, and that was never done that way before. Now, people are starting to do that. I see that now, politicians are out there advertising, almost, similar to the way I did it. You know? The most recent one was last week or two weeks ago, I went to a jazz club for a fundraiser, and it was advertised almost the way I -similar to the way I would do it. JJ: So people [that?] more like party, family, getting together? RL: Yeah, I think -- JJ: Not so much family, but party (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RL: Yeah, ’cause I felt like people are not [00:57:00] gonna come and just give you money -- 43 �JJ: -- civic thing, with fun. RL: Yeah, ’cause even I did something with the word fundraiser. I put F-U-N in parentheses, and called it a FUN-raiser, without the D, I dropped the D, and things like that, I mean, I just went to a different type of -- reaching the people on a different way. You know? JJ: If you won, what did you want accomplish? RL: What I wanted to do would be an active judge. And what I mean by that is, I thought it’d give me more credibility, because I enjoyed talking to children, I enjoyed talking to senior citizens and people in the community. I wanted to go and, as a judge now, and talk to kids and say, “Look it, this is where I came from, and this is where I’m at, and you can do it.” Because I tell kids, I say, “You know what? On the first day of school, what -- if you were to give yourself a grade, what would it be?” A lot of ’em may not [00:58:00] respond, I’ll tell ’em, I say, “It’s an A. ’Cause that first day of school, as you sit there, everybody in this class has an A. Because we’re all on the same page, we all have the capability, we all have an A. The issue is holding onto that A as, by doing homework, by studying, by completing assignments, and as the year progresses, the semester progresses, but right now, you’re an A student. So, how bad do you want it? What do you have to do? Look at me, I grew up in Cabrini-Green, I grew up in Humboldt Park, I grew up with gangbangers, my friends were dying, I have a friend on death row, you know. From Humboldt Park. [Juan Caraballo?], he’s still on death row, in Stateville. And then I have a friend who, in the same neighborhood, kitty-corner from each other, went to Harvard Law School. He 44 �grew up in a family of 13 kids, Anglo family. A family of 13, this kid went to Harvard Law School, doing well now, and is a partner in the law firm. You know. [00:59:00] So, you know, and I have another friend from St. Sylvester who became the first Hispanic judge in Lake County. Jorge Ortiz. And yet we all grew up in that environment, but again, it’s, you know, there’s a lot of things that go on in people’s lives that affect their ability to move forward. You know. But I would love to go and let these kids know, “Yeah, you know, I grew up this way, but it’s possible. You just gotta have a little more focus and not be -- not allow others to drive you this way, or take you that way. You gotta take it.” JJ: So it’s possible -- so what do you think needs to be done for these -- what do these kids need to do to do what you did, [basically?]? RL: Well, the main thing is just to -- I mean, education’s everything. Why? Because my parents, they harped about education all the -- we had to do our [01:00:00] homework, we had to -- even though they only had third grade, fourth grade education, my mom, I think, had an eighth grade education, my dad, third grade education. Yet, they harped about school all the time. Doing your homework, and school was very important, that’s why they sent us to Catholic grade school and things like that, even though, you know, resources were very limited. I mean, I remember getting toys from the church for Christmas because we couldn’t afford a lot of stuff. But, you know, I think with my story, they could see that even with that type of background, because a lot of it is similar to what they’re experiencing, see, and they just gotta hear it. See, we don’t have role models out there, we don’t see ourselves in that position because we don’t see it, 45 �a person of that ability. A Puerto Rican doctor, a Puerto Rican lawyer, a Puerto Rican president, we just don’t see it. Because they don’t come visit us, they don’t come talk to us, they don’t come and show that they are us, they are where I’m at now [01:01:00] as a third grader, fourth grader, sixth grader, high school kid. I mean, those people experienced what I experience. You know, when they hear a speaker. I have good credibility when I speak because, for example, my own clients, as a public defender. I could tell ’em my background, they’ll know we’re on the same page, you know. I remember one time I went to Cook County jail with a friend of mine who’s a lawyer, ’cause he had a client, and as a favor I just went with him to go visit the guy, and the guy -- the defendant, okay, the guy in jail is explaining how the crime occurred. And I’m sitting there listening, and after he finished I told him, “It didn’t happen that way, I’ll tell you how it happened. This is the way it happened.” Why? Because my own background on the streets -- I know how -- so this guy was just bullshitting the lawyer, my friend, but as I’m listening, I know what I know, growing up on the streets of Chicago, I know that’s not how we would do things. [01:02:00] So when I can do that, then they could relax with me, knowing that I could have, that we could communicate now. “Okay, don’t bullshit me, I’m here to help you, so let’s do it. I’ll be for real, you be for real.” So on and so forth. And kids know when you’re for real, especially young people. If I’m going to a school and talk to a kid, and try to sell ’em on going to school and being educated and being successful, you know, I’m not gonna go on there and say, “Yeah, I grew up -- my parents gave me everything in life, and you guys shouldn’t complain.” You know? “You should 46 �-- you just gotta deal with life.” Nah, I tell ’em, “Hey, life is not easy. It was never easy.” That’s the beauty of it, though. That’s the beauty of it, ’cause if it wasn’t, it’d be too boring. You know? JJ: So what are you doing today, I mean, in terms of your -- the lawyer, are you still a public defender, or...? RL: Nah, right now I work for the court system, so I can represent people. I’m a deputy general counsel at the Cook County Clerk of Court’s office. JJ: What -- [01:03:00] [I don’t know -- what do you mean?]? RL: And what they do, the Cook Clerk of Court, they gather all the -- any paper that you file in court, we’re in charge of. We put it in a folder, and we file it, so any document in a court case, any paper in that file, we’re responsible for it. JJ: For any cases, criminal, or...? RL: In any case in any Cook County. Any case in Cook County. So that’s a big -- JJ: Civil or criminal, to both? RL: Criminal, civil, I mean, traffic, anything that comes into the court system -- JJ: Goes through your office. RL: We deal with it. And we’re, like, the second biggest in the nation. Cook Court system. JJ: Court system. RL: Yeah, we’re that busy. So, it’s a interesting, you know, place to be. I enjoyed litigation, when I was a litigator, in court fighting for my clients, because I thought it was good to try to talk to a jury. I don’t know if -- a lot of attorneys aren’t good with juries. 47 �JJ: Litigation means trying (inaudible) attorneys (inaudible)? RL: Huh? JJ: Litigation means trying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Yeah, you’re right, [01:04:00] trying a case to a jury of 12 people. JJ: Okay. RL: And I enjoy doing that because I could be for real with the jury. A lot of attorneys don’t know how to relate to people because, for their background, whatever, they just, sometimes they forget that -- ’cause sometimes lawyers think of themselves up here, and then the jury, you know, common folks that we are, down here, and they see that, you gotta come down if you wanna communicate, you gotta make sure you’re at the same eye level, and make sure you could get their point across. JJ: So that’s a pretty good job. Why do you wanna run for the judge thing? RL: Because I wanna - the reason why I wanted to run for judge was to allow me to continue. ’Cause my ultimate goal, and I think it’s important that people have goals in life, because then you’re not gonna get bored, because you’re always trying to work towards something else, you know, and every time you accomplish something, that’s a big thing. But then, does that mean you [01:05:00] stop accomplishing? No, because if you have another goal, then whether it’s education or something that you have to work towards, at least you know, “Okay, that’s what I have to do, I have to work t--” So in my case, being a judge was gonna give me that [instant?] credibility so I could go in the neighborhood, do what I wanted to do in the community. My ultimate goal, I tell people, is to 48 �become the first Hispanic mayor of Chicago. Will that ever happen? I don’t know. But it’s the same as people saying, you know, “Shoot for the moon, and you’re amongst the stars, at the very least.” So it’s the same mindset, you know, I’ve always been inspired by Harold Washington, and things like that, and politicians like that. And so I say that, so I, you know, I consciously work towards that, so I was very satisfied when I ran for judge, because I never, you know -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the first election is usually an experience for the experience. RL: Exactly, it is, and you’re right. JJ: [And, so that was good?]. RL: And get your name out there so [01:06:00] people know who you are. You know, you gettin’ off the bench, I respect those that get off the bench than just sit on the bench. I may talk about it, but if I don’t do anything about it, it’s all talk. So. JJ: Now, since Harold Washington, ’cause I think he opened the doors for a lot of Latinos, you know, I mean a lot of people, but I mean Latinos also. Have you seen other Latinos more since that period of time move up the ladder...? RL: Yeah, yeah. And, you know -- JJ: I mean, are they working all over the...? Within the Democratic party, I mean, are they working within...? RL: Yeah, I mean there are some good politicians out there, Hispanic and African American, but are they really helping us as a community? To a certain extent. To a certain extent. Why? Because I’d rather have ’em in there than not have ’em, because I remember how it was when we didn’t have ’em. Some of ’em are 49 �limited and, you know, they limit themselves, I guess, in their ability to [01:07:00] really help the community. I think they could take us farther. JJ: Do they do it intentional, or -- what do you mean they limit themselves? RL: I know, that’s kinda sad, a sad thought, do they do it intentional? Maybe. Maybe some do. JJ: If they do it intentional, they just wanna get the job and that’s it. RL: The prestige, the money, the power. Yeah. ’Cause there’s not enough of us out there, so the few that we have, you know, they’re almost on the -- not the level of God, but they’re up there, the people give ’em that without them actually proving themselves. I mean, I’d rather see you -- you know, I give it to you but, show me, you know, you should deserve it though. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the job, they just got put on there. RL: Right. JJ: Without skills, is that what you’re saying, or...? RL: They may have the skills -- JJ: I don’t wanna put -- RL: -- no, they may have the -- JJ: I don’t wanna put words in your mouth. RL: Right, they may have the skills, but it’s the power trip, you know, they’re making their money, they’re making -- [01:08:00] you know, they get complacent. They get complacent. Maybe that was their -- again, maybe that was their goal to be aldermen, and then, “Okay, what’s your next goal? Now you became an alderman, what is it you wanna do with that? Do you wanna just make money 50 �and cut deals and just do minimal for the community, or are you gonna maximize and do everything that you aspired to do when you did run for this office?” You know, there’s a difference between wanting to do something, talking about doing something, and actually doing it. See? So that’s why I think they do have the right attitude and the right heart when they do run, and then they do win, and they love it, they celebrate it with the community, but now what? What are you gonna do with it? I mean, we put you in the driver’s seat, but how far are you gonna take us? JJ: So what do you think holds them down? ’Cause it’s sorta like, they jump, they’re jumping up and then they [01:09:00] stop. So (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: Right, I think they fall into the trap of their peers. And when I say peers I mean, like, the other aldermen who have been there for many years, more the -- it could be other aldermans, whether they’re white, Black, or Spanish, who have been there for many years, and maybe their focus is just to make money, and they’re teaching you the game. You know, “Just keep your mouth shut, or just do it this way, and we could work it together. Now, if we don’t work it together, you’re gonna be an outsider, and you’re gonna be limited. We’re not gonna give you much of the pie. You want a piece of the pie? Work with us, we’ll share with you.” But... JJ: That’s straightforward, [then?]. (laughs) Is that what you’re saying? RL: Yeah. I mean, there are some renegades out there that don’t fall into that trap, that want to do what they can for the whole community, and fight the powers that be to get that [01:10:00] slice of the pie to share with the people, you know. 51 �Evenly. But I mean, the schools are still messed up, I mean, there’s just too much, our people are just screwed. Are we screwing ourselves? I mean, what is our problem? The same issues that I saw when I was a kid, a teenager, you saw in the community that you guys fought for. JJ: What were those issues? That you saw. RL: Lack of education, lack of opportunity, jobs. At the very least, that we were, [if had?] good education, you know... We’re not graduating from high school. We’re not graduating from college. I mean, education’s everything. I mean, it opens your mind to question, you know, and look at things differently, or at least question instead of just allowing somebody to tell you that, “This is blue, so [01:11:00] believe me it’s blue, even if it’s not,” you know. They may have the handkerchief over and say, “Just trust me, there’s something blue under here.” But, you know, education is the bottom line. Why? Because then, that next generation, you’re gonna help educate them too. We can’t just rely on teachers. I help my kid with his homework and things like that ’cause I realize, teachers have a role, but so do parents. You know? You really wanna maximize your kid’s abilities, it takes more than just going to a school. When they’re young like that, I mean, you have to help them and motivate them and make them feel good about going to school and saying, “Yeah, this is good, I wanna go back to school and raise my hand when a teacher has a question and challenge her or him,” and feel like their brain is working, they’re being creative and they’re actually learning, instead of being bored and feeling like “Oh, I’m not as smart as the next [01:12:00] person.” And just allowing yourself to vegetate, really. Come home, 52 �watch movies, and forget about. You know, almost giving up. Almost giving up, even though you got a brain that’s priceless, you know. But... JJ: So what are some of the other issues? I know we did discuss, like, police abuse at that time. And we discussed housing [in that?] -- is that a problem today, too, or no? RL: Well, gangs, gang issues are still a problem. Why? There’s no excuse for that, really. But at the same time, I remember when we grew up, there was boys’ clubs, there was YMCAs, there was all kinds of community organizations and places you could go and be involved, and things like that. Now, there aren’t any. There aren’t any community things going on. There’s no YM-- you won’t find a YMCA or Boys & Girls Club in your neighborhood anymore. They’re replaced [01:13:00] by McDonalds, Burger King, or fast food joints, or businesses. And, you know, the contrast was, if you were in the suburbs, you go to school in those days, you could play sports, you could do this, you could do that, you could do all these things. Over here, yeah, you could say the same thing, but it’s not the same. I mean, I remember I played soccer at Illinois Benedictine for a couple years because they would give me, like, 800 bucks. For me, anything was good, so I could make some money to pay my tuition. I remember we played Lake Forest College. Man, those kids, they all had beautiful duffel bags, they all had the exact same ones and beautiful uniforms, and here we are with our, you know, little garbage bag, practically. I was like, “Wow, that’s pretty cool.” I mean, we don’t have that, but, you know, it’s the school system that buries us, or allows us 53 �-- or we bury ourselves, [01:14:00] too, though. It takes two. You know, it takes two. JJ: And you don’t think the housing was contributing at all, or...? You just think that if we fixed -- I just wanna get clear what you’re saying. So you’re saying that if we just fixed the school system, that would get people more educated and that would improve other services? RL: Right, it would improve our, you know, ourselves a lot, why? Because I think it allows us to -- the next generation to be hopefully, you know, the American Dream’s always that the next generation does better. But if we look at our -- the way things are going, partly because of the school system being as bad as it is, I may not graduate, my son may not graduate, my daughter may not graduate. But if I have a degree and understand the value of it, my son, my daughter may be tutored by me, even at home. People hire tutors out there, and it’s, like, amazing. Which is good, if they can afford it, [01:15:00] but yet, we don’t even come close to doing that. I mean, we don’t even do homework. Not we, 100 percent, but there’s parents out there who are just too busy. Why? They work, they both work, they’re tired, they come home. You know. They forget the most important investment is that child, though, in your own household. I mean, that’s really the biggest investment in your household, and you’re letting it go down the drain. I mean, like, when we educate ourselves, when we have kids, we’re gonna let them know how important education is, and we want them to do better than us. And we want them to be in first grade and not feel behind. Because we’re gonna be, you know, teaching. I remember, in college, between age of 54 �zero and two, a child, reading that their brain is like a sponge. I mean, they just, like, soak up information. So, when my kid was, when he was born, I was always interacting with him. Reading to him, talking to him, whatever, ’cause I knew that was an important window. And then thereafter, I would [01:16:00] take him to the book store with me. Instead of buying him books, I figured, “Hey, let’s just go have dinner, let’s go to a bookstore and relax.” And then he could read three, four, five books. So he understood, you know, there was a lot going on in life, by reading, and things like that. I’d read to him, when I would read I would stutter, because I want him -- because my thing is, when I say stutter, is because I think, if you know the alphabet, you could read. That’s what I say. So when I read to him, I show him the alphabet, so I would repeat the B in the word “butter” a couple of times, U, I would repeat it, so he could see that these are just letters that are put together. And so he’s a very good reader, he’s in a gifted school, Skinner, right now, which is -- you had to apply for. I mean, it’s funny, because nowadays we have gifted schools in this city. We didn’t have that before, we didn’t have any of that. But now that more people are living in the city, moving from the suburbs, we feel the need to have that type of service for them. But we didn’t feel the need to have that type of service for us when we were growing up [01:17:00] in the city. ’Cause I think everybody’s gifted, I mean, we’re all gifted, long as we have a brain, you could do a lot. If you’re brain damaged, I can understand the limitations, but as long as we have a brain and we have somebody that cares, a teacher, a parent, to help us along, you know. I feel bad when I see kids not really being -- don’t know how to read and stuff like that, 55 �because I’m thinking, “Wait a minute, at least that parent has a eighth grade education, so they --” You should be able to teach ’em, and your child, first grade reading, math, whatever, but parents don’t wanna involve themselves that much. You know, across the board, anyway. And so that, remember, there’s that cycle, and that sucks. That sucks. I mean, you wanna educate your kid, you can do it. You don’t have to rely on a teacher. I mean, you are going to, ’cause the child automatically goes, but he needs that tutor at home. He needs to see that the parent cares, that it’s important to the parent too. You know? That their child does well. ’Cause they get a lot of [01:18:00] reinforcement from the parents, too. “Wow, you did great,” you know. “Mira, Jose, you got an A, wow, that’s good, see, I’m glad you did your homework, we did your homework, yeah, we interacted.” Instead of popping a video in there, or a Game Boy, I don’t like Game Boys or whatever the kids do on TV, or. His mother bought him one, you know, my ex, but I’m not a big fan, and now she’s complaining he’s spending a lot of time on it, I say, “Well, what do you expect?” You know, “It’s catch-22, you buy it, he uses it, now you’re complaining? Come on.” (laughs) So, but... JJ: Any final thoughts? RL: Well, you know, and again, it goes back to -- it’s a collective, you know, it’s a collective. And what I see right now is that we’re thirsting for leadership, our community. [And I’ll call it?] Hispanic community, ’cause I see that more, you know, I’ll talk about our people. We’re thirsting for leadership, we don’t have it. We elected people, and we put ’em in positions of [01:19:00] leadership, and we wanted them to lead us. And, you know, they’re like tires in the winter, just 56 �squealing in the snow, you know, slip-sliding away. And we’re like, “Wow,” you know. And now we’re getting -- so it’s almost like we’re frustrating ourselves, you know, we’re getting frustrated and saying ”What the heck?” It’s almost like kids, we’re looking for that leadership, like a kid looking to their parents, and we do that with our leaders as adults. We’re like, “Where’s our leadership? We wanna move forward.” Which was why, when Obama won as president, President Obama, the Blacks of course, the African Americans, very, very happy, of course. But we were all also very happy, because that’s the closest that we could get to a minority person that we think our, you know, is a leader, and is gonna help us, and so on and so on. Imagine if some of us were in high positions, you know, Latinos. ’Cause we do, we do get some satisfaction, and we do get some pride and we, [01:20:00] you know, it kinda wakes us up. And then maybe we can start realizing, “Wait a minute, we can do it.” [John?] and [Jack?] from Humboldt Park, there’s that Young Lord who was doing drugs, and look at him. You know? I mean, we don’t see those stories, because right now we’re just so busy trying to make our money to survive. I mean, I’m just talking about people working, I mean, we’re just busy doing that, and it’s kinda hard on our kids, right, education and stuff, we don’t help them, but it’s hard on us too. That’s why we’re looking for our leaders to pull us a little bit, and we don’t have that. We have gangs, we have schools that are bad, we have just too much -we’re kind of giving up hope in a sense, you know, because, especially Latinos, because we have the church, that we don’t see it as strong as it used to be. We see kids being molested, and then we see the leadership not responding the 57 �way, [01:21:00] you know, the way they should, I guess, right? I mean, I’m not blaming the whole church because, again, in every profession, we have good, bad, and ugly. There’s a lot more good than bad. But the bad is what we have to deal with, and hopefully respond appropriately. So, that’s why I have that in the back of my mind as a goal, to become the first Hispanic mayor, because I saw it in Harold Washington, I saw what he did, and what he was going to do, and then he died. But, I’m sure Chicago would’ve been way different. JJ: And you said you worked on the Harold Washington campaign, what were you doing then? RL: No, my cousins were, my buddy was, and so I would, like, go watch -- go to the -when he won, or I’ll watch it on TV, or I’d read about it in the paper. You know. ’Cause I remember when [01:22:00] Harold -- Epstein or whatever the Republican -- JJ: Epton, yeah. RL: Epton, Epton. Was running, when the commercials showed, like a Black hand voting, and then the tag word was, “Before it’s too late,” you know, “Vote Epton before it’s too late.” I mean, it was so racist, I was like, “Wow! This is amazing, how 19-whatever!” Yeah. And commercials are just straight up racist. JJ: Well, he was being picketed and everything by Epton supporters. They were picketing him at the time. RL: Right? I mean, everything was -- it was just crazy. Even on TV, I remember the Council Wars. The way he was just -- JJ: The Council Wars, can you explain what that is, or...? 58 �RL: Yeah, it was basically the aldermen, for the most part, the white aldermen in Chicago. When Harold won, they ganged up as a group of 28, I believe it was, and Harold Washington, to get a lot of bills passed, or [01:23:00] ordinances, or whatever, laws, he would need them. He would need a majority, you know, at least. But the majority were the whites, so they would block almost everything he would do. So even though he was the mayor, he was like a lame duck mayor, because he wasn’t allowed to really run the city the way he wanted to, the way he thought would be a better -- to make the city better for everybody. But the power, the Council Wars, as they called it, because now, the 28 aldermen versus the mayor, and it was pretty ugly. It was -- you see it on TV, you read about it in the paper, but they didn’t care. I mean, power was the ultimate goal for the 28, they did not wanna lose it, especially to a Black man, especially to the minorities in the community, ’cause he represented -- he was gonna represent the minorities, ’cause we really didn’t have representation until he came along. And not only that, he was [01:24:00] gonna appoint Latinos and African Americans to a position of power in the city departments. Hell, we’re all taxpayers, we should all have equal rights, but you know. JJ: Actually, I think he said that publicly, like when they had the Puerto Rican parade, they had the first neighborhood festival in Humboldt Park. Do you recall it? It was, like, 100,000 people or something like that in Humboldt Park. RL: Wow. JJ: You don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: No, I don’t remember that. 59 �JJ: I think he said that publicly, then. RL: Oh, really good. JJ: About appointing Latinos. And he did (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Right, right, exactly, oh yeah. Yeah, it was good, it was good stuff. It was a lot of stuff happening in Humboldt Park, I mean, I remember the 1976 riots, Puerto Rican Day parade riots. JJ: The ’66 riots? RL: That was the first. The second one. JJ: Oh, the ’76 --? RL: The second was ’78. JJ: ’78, okay. RL: ’78, the second one, ’cause I was a sophomore and at Prosser. And that was the second riot, it was a two-day riot. A couple people died the first day, and the second day, I think a couple more [01:25:00] people got shot by the police, and businesses were burned, and everything. JJ: [Five people died?] in ’78, I wasn’t aware. RL: Yeah, 1978, the day of the Puerto Rican parade. And what happened was, ’cause I remember being there -- JJ: Oh, I was here, yeah, just saying, I didn’t remember. RL: Yeah, Google, man, that’s a good one. I mean, nowadays, you know. And that’s another thing, when I say Google. A lot of kids think they can’t go to college ’cause they can’t afford it, and I’m thinking, “Wow, all you gotta do is Google for scholarships and,” you know, “just put in some keywords and things’ll pop up, a 60 �little research, you’ll find some money out there.” A lot of people don’t do that, when I was young I had to go to Harold Washington Library downtown, which was at Randolph and Michigan, which is now the cultural center, and I would go in there and ask the librarian, you know, “I’m looking for scholarships, do you have a book on it?” And they’d give me these dusty old books that nobody was looking at and, you know, there was obsole-- half of the scholarship information in there was obsolete, wasn’t even in existence anymore. But I had to, you know, [01:26:00] find a way, I had to take the train and go downtown. Kids nowadays, they could just go on the computer and do some research, and hopefully find some money out there. And it is, there’s money out there. JJ: Now you mentioned your brother, Lugo, and you didn’t know Gladys was part of that too. RL: Right, right. JJ: And Edwin. RL: And Edwin, right. JJ: And Edwin is her -- Gladys’s brother. RL: Brother, exactly. JJ: So, Edwin [Diaz?]. RL: Right, Edwin Diaz. JJ: Now, you said he [talks?] -- you’re hearing some stuff about the Young Lords from him, or...? RL: No, I never really -- I didn’t -- JJ: [He?] never [talked about it, or...?] 61 �RL: No, no. JJ: Was he embarrassed of them, or...? RL: No, it just had -- you know, I was a different generation. JJ: Oh, you were a different generation. RL: Yeah, ’cause he -- I don’t know how old he is, but, what, maybe about 58, I’m guessing. 59. JJ: In terms of age? RL: Yeah, I mean [it was like?] there was a big gap, because he’s the second oldest and I’m one of the young ones, the babies, you know. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: My crew was different, I was at home. [01:27:00] I was more of a kid, you know, and what they did on the street, they did. You know, I wouldn’t even know. JJ: But you wouldn’t -- he’s not considered someone involved with drugs, or gangs -- RL: No. JJ: -- or anything, but you never saw them do that? RL: No. But you know what, he did influence me in a positive way one time, because when I went to Holy Trinity, I was behind on credits, because again, I got D’s and F’s at Prosser. So I wasn’t gonna graduate on time. So I actually went to a counselor, and he signed me up for a fifth year of high school at Holy Trinity. And then for some reason, well, I was at my brother’s house one day, and I mentioned that to him. We were talking, and he mentioned how he went to colleges, he said, “Why don’t you go to college?” And that kinda surprised me, because nobody ever mentioned colle-- college was never in the picture for me, 62 �okay. I thought if I graduated from high school that was a big, big thing. And nobody ever mentioned it until he did, he said, “You should go to college.” And then [01:28:00] he backed it up by explaining why. He said, “You know what? I went to Berkeley, and Michigan, as a speaker, as a Young Lord.” ’Cause in those days, psychology and sociology were big things, and they’d invite some of the Young Lords to tour their college’s campus, and talk to the students, and stuff like that. So that kind of amazed me, ’cause first of all, I didn’t know anything about college, but second of all, I didn’t know he actually went to these major universities. JJ: I remember when he went to Berkeley, [I remember that?]. RL: Yeah, that kinda tripped me out, so that had a big effect on me. So what I did the next day, it was a Sunday, I was visiting with him at his house. I went to Holy Trinity, I told the counselor, I said, “You know what? I’m going to college. Whatever it is I gotta do to graduate this year, tell me, ’cause I’m not gonna do a fifth year of high school. So tell me what I gotta do.” So, he told me, “Well, take some correspondence courses.” Whatever -- this is what you had to do. And I [01:29:00] did, I took some correspondence courses besides my high school courses, and I was real busy, but I graduated. You know? And then I just, you know, ended up, of course, graduating from college and things like that, but yeah. It was because of him, because of that. Nobody ever said anything -- JJ: I remember, he traveled through the [whole coast?] of California, speaking at different -- RL: Oh, really? 63 �JJ: -- places, yeah, [I remember when?] he did that. RL: So, you know, so I helped his daughters, he had three daughters. All of ’em graduated from University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana. JJ: Lugos? Lugos? Okay. Good. RL: Yeah, uh-huh. And because -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: Right, right, exactly. (laughter) So it was [funny?] because he inspired me, you know, I learned everything I learned about applying for school and everything on my own. And so, when the girls were getting to that age of applying for college, I would tell ’em, “Hey,” I was the one to [01:30:00] tell ’em exactly what to do. And they did, because they had a thirst for -- ’cause I could tell kids what to do, if they don’t listen, what good is it, right? I could give ’em the whatever, but if they won’t work it, you could lead ’em to water, if they don’t drink, then they’ll stay thirsty. But his girls, they listened to me, and they applied to -- I would tell ’em after their junior year, the summer of their junior year, you know, after the junior year, I said, “Right now’s the time you guys gotta apply for college. Get the application, start getting ready for those recommendation letters.” And I’d give ’em the process, because once they became seniors -- you know, ’cause I always feel like, you gotta be first in line, when you -- the applications are ready, they tell you, “Send your applications, admission application, beginning September through March.” Well, guess what, if you do it in March, the chances of you getting in are almost zero. But if you were part of the people that sent it in in September, you know, that’s a big [01:31:00] difference. So I told ’em, “You gotta get -- a ton of kids are 64 �gonna ask their teachers for recommendation letters, these teachers are gonna be busy, and they have a personal life, and they’re not gonna have time for 100 personal letters. Get your stuff ready, and do it immediately, and be first in line.” Sure enough, they all graduated, they all did what I told ’em and they did it. I told other siblings, you know, nephews and nieces, I tried to help them, they wouldn’t listen, so of course they didn’t go to college, or they didn’t go to graduate school, or whatever. You know? I try to help people as much as possible. I was on the admissions committee at University of Wisconsin Law School for minorities. And then, what it consisted of was, four law professors, and an African American, Spanish representative, and an American Indian representative. So we were on the committee for minority applicants. JJ: And this was in what city? RL: University of Wisconsin Law School, Madison. JJ: [01:32:00] In Madison, okay. RL: Right. As a law student, I was on the committee. And I brought in the most Latino law students ever. Based on the admission. Why? Because I was proactive. I see their qualifications, we’d vote on it, but more -- that’s one thing, you could send an admission letter, they may not come, they may go elsewhere. But I get on the phone, and I call these people and say, “Hey, you know, I’m soand-so, Ricardo Lugo, I’m at the law school and I saw your application, we would love for you to come visit, we’d love for you to come here.” Or something to sell these students to come here. I’d represent the Latino students, so that’s why I would call, and the African American guy or girl would call the African American 65 �applicants, you know. So I recruited -- and the ones that actually came, we had the highest -- the largest Hispanic law student class, first-year law students, was when -- because of my efforts. You know. ’Cause, you know, I just want everybody to [01:33:00] have that opportunity. I mean, it’s a great school, it’s, whatever it takes. I even had -- one friend of mine in particular, he’s here in Chicago, he went to University of Chicago undergrad, [Morrison the Mejicano?]. I called him, I said, “Hey, come visit, and you can even have my apartment. Come for the weekend, you can have my apartment, I can stay somewhere else, but that way you have a place to stay.” Sure enough, he came to visit, and he’s still a good friend of mine now. The other day I saw him, a couple weeks ago, he said, “You know, I might run for judge myself.” We were just talking. So I like to back up what I say. I don’t like to just talk to talk, you know, I like to back it up. You know, and hopefully if I’m around a group of young people, I tell you, “Hey, I would love to talk to your kids.” I was at a LULAC convention in Puerto Rico, and a woman that worked with the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, a Latina, happened to be from my same town, you know, Yauco, Puerto Rico. She said, “You know what, I’m the diversity [01:34:00] coordinator at the -- on the Air Force base, would you come and speak to us during Hispanic Heritage Month?” I’m like, “Sure, I love doing that stuff.” So then a few months later, she called me and told me, “Hey, yeah, remember we talked? Why don’t you come down?” And she said, “How much do you charge?” And I said, “Nothing.” You know, I enjoy doing that. You know, I don’t charge to talk. And sure enough, I went down there and it was in -- it’s in Dayton, Ohio. And, yeah, so I flew into 66 �Columbus, Ohio, rented a car, went over there and slept on base. They had their own hotel. They gave me -- put up the room and stuff. But yeah, you know, again, I just enjoy doing it. People helped me, so I don’t see any reason why we can’t help each other. The payback is the positive, you know, the seed you may plant in somebody. But it’s up to them to put some water or knowledge, whatever. JJ: So there’s [01:35:00] some elections coming up, are you -- the mayoral thing is [not?] coming up soon, right? (laughter) RL: I’m not -- yeah, I gotta -- I’m working with the party, Democratic Party, to try to get into their good graces. In other words, to have them help me, slate me, you know, in becoming a judge, or becoming an alderman, or whatever, down the road. That’s where I’m at. ’Cause they saw that I did a good job, and they were, I’m sure, surprised, at what I did. But at the same time, impressed with what I did. So, we’ll see. I mean, I was going to senior citizen homes, I was all over the map. Yeah. It was busy, it was nonstop, I -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Busy, yeah. Busy work. RL: I think I put three years of work into six months, man. (laughter) ’Cause I have my job, I have my son, I have the streets, the work, the streets, get that vote. I had to do what I had to do. [01:36:00] So. JJ: Final, final thoughts? RL: That was my final thought, but, yeah. (laughs) JJ: I appreciate it. I appreciate it, Ricardo. RL: Gracias. 67 �JJ: Gracias. END OF VIDEO FILE 68 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c77194b48c57d8669598dcde8bc1b223.mp4 6283a3db050a30ca1656f7be998c961e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ricardo Lugo vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Ricardo Lugo, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 12/14/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lugo_Ricardo Title A name given to the resource Ricardo Lugo video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lugo, Ricardo Description An account of the resource Oral history of Ricardo Lugo, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 12/14/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc9010d2340eb32c74a98cd6e1aa512a.pdf 23b3d261a1b325bcad7c48ec257c0e73 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ricardo Rebollar Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/11/2012 Biography and Description Ricardo Rebollar is from one of the first Mexican families to live in Lincoln Park, settling around Sheffield and Clybourn Streets and remaining there more than 30 years. After José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez got into trouble at Newberry Elementary School, in the 6th grade he was taken out by his mother and placed into the Catholic St. Teresa School. Mr. Rebollar was of the few Latinos in the school and in his class and they became very close friends. They would talk long hours before and after school in their homes, and together planned to go into the seminary and then into the priesthood because it was a way they felt they could help their People. Mr. Rebollar recalls those years, as well as how they played in softball teams and other sports. He also describes his girlfriend and how her parents had a difficult time accepting him because of his national origin. He recalls the days that Lincoln Park turned more Puerto Rican and Latino and describes how he felt safe when he walked the area of Lincoln Park because the Young Lords and other groups knew that he and Mr. Jiménez were friends. Mr. Rebollar also went to the McCormick Theological Seminary’s Occupation and because he was a student at St. Vincent DePaul High School he supported the DePaul University take-over by the African American students who were being supported by the Young Lords. �Neither Mr. Rebollar nor Mr. Jiménez ever made it to the priesthood. Mr. Rebollar first became a law enforcement officer and says that, “he was a good sharpshooter.” He then later became a teacher for the Chicago school system and currently teaches science at Joliet West High School in Illinois. Spanish Ricardo Rebollar es hijo de una de las primeras familias Mexicanas que vivieron en Lincoln Park, en las calles de Sheffield y Clybourn, por más que 30 años. Después que José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez se encontró en problemas en Newberry Elemntary School, su mama lo saco de la escuela y lo inscribió en escuela Católica de St. Teresa. Señor Rebollar era uno de los pocos latinos en la escuela y porque estaban en la misma clase se hicieron mejores amigos. Se pasaban los días hablando antes y después de la escuela y querían ir al seminario y luego ordenarse sacerdote porque sentían que era la única forma que podían ayudar su gente. Señor Rebollar recuerda que juagaron juntos en equipos de softbol y otros deportes. También recuerda que los padres de su novia tuvieron más tiempo en aceptarlo por su origen nacional. Y como en esos días podía caminar por las calles de Lincoln Park sin temor porque los Young Lords sabían que era amigo de Jiménez. Señor Rebollar atendió McCormick Theoligal Seminary’s Occupation y la escuela de St. Vincet DePaul High School en donde Afro-Americanos (quien eran apoyados por Young Lords) tomaron la escuela. Señor Rebollar y Señor Jiménez no llegaron a ordenarse. Rebollar primero fue un policía y dice que “era un tirador experto.” Ahora es un maestro en la escuela de Joliet West High en Illinois. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. RICARDO REBOLLAR: Well -So you want me looking this way so you want it looking at me. Yeah, that's good. JJ: And just tell me your name and then your date of birth. RR: Okay. My name is Ricardo Rebollar. Rebollar. It's pronounced I was born on October 29, 1948 in Mexico City, Mexico. JJ: Okay. And okay, so when did you come to the United States? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RR: We came to the United States in the 1952. My dad was already here and he had found work or he had thought he had found work in San Jose, California. actually went to live with my uncle. And that’s when we Yeah. But they found out within about six months that there wasn’t any job to be had but he found there was another opportunity here in Chicago. So we came -- I must’ve -- sort of ’52, ’53 was when we arrived in Chicago. [00:01:00] And we first lived down on Sedgwick right across the street from Cabrini-Green except they were just finishing building it. JJ: Okay. Right by Cabrini-Green. RR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay, over by Franklin School, (inaudible). So I went third grade, I went to -- 1 �RR: Yeah. Edward Jenner is where I actually went, yeah. Third Grade. JJ: So this was ’54? RR: Yeah, ’53, ’54. JJ: In 1954. RR: Yeah. Yeah. And actually, we -- there’s a whole lot of spots, but anyhow, we lived there for a short period of time. We had lived in the DePaul area. JJ: Now, when you lived near Cabrini-Green, is that when -- the point they had a lot of Hispanics or Latinos? RR: No, we had none. JJ: There were no -- RR: We were the only ones there that were Hispanics, yeah. Yeah. Everybody there was Italian or -- JJ: They were Italian. They were not African American. RR: -- right in that little area. No, no, there were no Blacks at all in that [00:02:00] area. JJ: Even near Cabrini-Green? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RR: When they started filling up the -- when I -- so the second half of third grade, I remember meeting the first Black kids. In fact, I remember one of the kid’s names. name was Winston. His I thought that was kind of weird but Winston was his name. traded toy soldiers. And he and I got to be buddies. We But about six months later -2 �JJ: So Cabrini-Green was all white at the time, mostly white. RR: The housing, yeah. Not the housing but the -- the houses around there were all white people, yeah. trying to think. Yeah. And then I’m Italian and there was a couple of Germans that I -- we knew but mostly Italians. And then at the end of third grade, half-way through fourth grade, we moved back to the DePaul area. In fact, that’s when we started living at 1808. JJ: So you went to Joiner? Is that what it’s called? School? RR: Jenner. JJ: [00:03:00] Jenner, yeah. RR: Edward Jenner School. JJ: What street was that? RR: Oh God, I don’t know. JJ: But it was Jenner, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: Because you’d have to walk through the green. I remember -- yeah. Because the building was between -- yeah. JJ: Oh, by Saint Joseph’s. RR: Yeah, Saint Joseph’s was on one side. In fact, I went to Saint Joseph’s for about six months. JJ: Really? I went there. I went to -- RR: You’re kidding. JJ: I did, (inaudible). RR: It’s Saint Joseph’s and then we lived -- and then by the 3 �end, less than a year, we were back at -- anyway. wound up with 1808. And we And we got there because the lady who knew us there recommended us to Mr. Pistoni. JJ: Nineteen oh-eight did you say? RR: Eighteen oh-eight was the address. JJ: Eighteen oh-eight Sheffield? RR: Yeah. That’s where we moved back in there. And we were there for years and years. JJ: Last time, you were saying, in fact, somebody -- I stopped you. You were saying something about it. A lady or something that lived there? RR: There was a lady who lived at -- in [00:04:00] the apartment building where we’re -- near Cabrini-Green on Sedgwick Street. And she knew we were looking for a new place and she recommended us to a Mr. Pistoni. his name. And he was the owner of the 1808 building and that’s how we got 1808. JJ: I remember And -- So that was on the other side of Lincoln Park that he owns some buildings there so -- RR: Yeah. And he was a real nice, little, old Italian guy. I don’t know if he even spoke English but we wound up staying there. JJ: Was he Italian? RR: Italian, yeah. 4 �JJ: Because we landlords who were Italians so they would have definitely let us. RR: Right. And then the lady next to us, [Castelluccio?]. was Italian and she owned the building. flat. She It was a three- And then the building next to it was a lady. I believe her name was -- is [Schmitz?] or [Schultz?], I don’t remember. And there was like -- and then the next building was [00:05:00] all sorts of Germans. Across the street was a guy who was a fireman and I never did know what he was but he wasn’t Hispanic. In fact, the only Hispanic that we knew in ’54, ’55 was the lady we had originally rented from. And I don’t remember the address but it’s right there at Poe and Sheffield. Or Maud -- it’s Maud is the street and Sheffield and we had originally rented when we first came. see her every so often. And that was neat and we would So I wound up at Saint Teresa’s. And Saint Teresa’s in fourth grade, middle of fourth grade. JJ: So you started -- when you moved here, you were in fourth grade. RR: Yeah. JJ: So you went to Jenner for the first four years? RR: No, actually, I went to what was the name? JJ: You went to Saint Joseph or Teresa’s? [00:06:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 5 �RR: No, actually it started out because the first move was onto the Sheffield street. And there, I went first and second grade to -- oh, what was the name of the school? school that’s right there. It’s the I don’t know if you remember it. JJ: By Saint Teresa’s? RR: No, it’s on Sheffield. JJ: Oh -- RR: God. JJ: -- Mulligan, Mulligan, Mulligan. RR: Mulligan, yes. was Mulligan. It’s a big, old ancient building. Yes, [Mrs. Kelly?] was my teacher. That So I went there first and second grade. JJ: So you went there first and second? RR: And then we had a -- we lived for a short time in an apartment building on North and -- JJ: And then you went back to Saint Joseph’s? RR: And then we went to Sedgwick and then from there, we came back. JJ: You came back. So you went to Sedgwick or Sheffield. was where you lived in that area. That That was in the early ’50s, 1953. RR: Yeah, I would say somewhere between ’53 through [00:07:00] about ’57. JJ: So that area was Italian and German you said? 6 �RR: Yeah, right. There was very few Blacks. The Blacks that we knew lived on Clybourn just north of where Clybourn and Sheffield meet. And there was only like one or two families. JJ: That was like one block. That was African American. RR: Yeah, and everything else was basically Baldwin. JJ: I remember people would brag that there was -- that Blacks were moving -- RR: Be into that area. JJ: -- north of North Avenue. Do you remember that or (inaudible)? RR: Oh, well, I knew that there was -- JJ: There was a barber shop there right there. RR: They used to -- well, we were right next to the Bonge’s Tavern that we’d hear that there. JJ: You would hear it? RR: Yeah, but you know, five houses away were the two houses where the Blacks lived. But there were -- I mean, I never understood what their problem [00:08:00] was. Because we lived next to them and they were kids like us. In fact, most of the problem we had were with the Italians. JJ: What kind of problems? RR: Mostly, it’s like -- it was child things. that’s great. Like, “Oh, yeah, They’re having a birthday party.” “Well, 7 �you can’t come.” “What do you mean you can’t come?” And then there was this hemming and hawing. JJ: Hemming so -- RR: And the kids would tell you. He says, “Well, you’re Mexican.” JJ: And they said it just like little kids. RR: Yeah, you can’t come. JJ: Yeah. Even though you had been playing with them a little bit and after a certain point -RR: Yeah. It was mostly the parents. I don’t think the kids were a really big deal. There was a couple of -- I don’t even remember his name. But there were a couple of Italian kids who were pretty nasty. But -- JJ: But it was mostly the parents that were kind of -- RR: Yeah, they were -- they were standoffish. JJ: Because that happened, too, at my graduation part that -- RR: Yeah. JJ: -- but anyway. [00:09:00] But I was messing up then. I was already in the gang (laughs) so I could blame it on the gang. RR: Oh yeah, blame it on the gang. Yeah, so -- JJ: But it was -- but you’re saying it was the parents that -- RR: Mostly it was the parents. Most of the -- and it was strange because I’m hanging out with kids who were [Glaw?] 8 �and [Camarada?] and there’s a lot of -- And we were fine. The kids I really -- I mean, I don’t remember if you knew John. I mean, [John Glaw?] was the guy who played baseball with me all the time. So when we went to play with you, it was [Landini?], Glaw, and me that mostly were playing. And so when we met you out in the park -JJ: In which park? RR: Lincoln Park. Because we’d walk from there all the way to Lincoln Park to play at the North Avenue playfields. And if you get there early in the morning, you could [00:10:00] save it and play. JJ: And that’s what we used to do. So is that when we met the first time or I don’t even remember. RR: Oh, the first time -- JJ: I don’t remember any -- RR: I really don’t remember when the first time I met you. mean, I was familiar with you from school. I We used to do the debates and stuff and I remember that. JJ: For the school? RR: Yeah, at school. What was it? Do you remember [Sister Hermann Joseph?]? JJ: Yes, I do. RR: Yeah. JJ: Seventh? It -- what grade was she? She was seventh. Okay. [Hermann Muller?] so okay. And sixth was 9 �[Sister Annie?]. RR: Sister Annie I had, yeah. JJ: …was sixth and then Sister Anne was eighth. RR: Yeah. JJ: Oh, now I know -- I got all three of them. RR: And you weren’t there in fifth because that was [Miss Bunster?]. JJ: I just was -- Yeah. Wait, no, I was in the sixth, seventh, and eighth. And so Sister Annie and Sister Hermann Joseph and Sister (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -RR: Yeah. Sister Hermann Joseph worked our asses -- oops. JJ: (laughs) RR: We used to work because she always thought we could do better than what we were actually doing. So we would get A’s and then we -- she’d say, “No, you don’t deserve an A.” [00:11:00] Then yeah, so it’s probably about the point at which I remember first -- because we used to play ball. Where was it? JJ: We were first playing ball out -- So when we saw each other in Lincoln Park, you already knew me. RR: Yeah, by that time, I already knew you. JJ: So you saw me in the (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah. We had met and it must’ve been at -- it must’ve been in seventh grade. I don’t remember you from sixth at all. 10 �JJ: I think it was seventh grade. RR: So seventh grade is when we started making contact and -- JJ: So who was playing actually ball over there? I just joined your team? RR: Well, what we’d do is get together and see how many guys we could get there and we’d play. We’d set up a game. JJ: Was it softball or hardball or --? RR: Hardball. JJ: Right, right. RR: That was for sissies -- JJ: (laughs) RR: -- because we’d do fast-pitching hardball. We didn’t play softball. get the -- what was it? And we used to There was a ceramics place on Clybourne. JJ: What was it? [00:12:00] Ceramic? Okay. RR: And they would let us play in their parking lot. we’d go, there’d be 10, 20 of us going over there. And so And then we’d set up and we could play and no one would bother us. JJ: What about catcher’s mitts and --? RR: Are you kidding? JJ: You’d scrounge them? RR: Yeah. We’d scrounge those. Or -- My first one was scrounged from I don’t know, a second-hand shop or something. Or somebody didn’t want 11 �theirs -JJ: (inaudible) equipment? RR: Yeah, sort of. balls. We had gloves and we had bats and we had And sometimes, we didn’t have balls. We’d go looking for -- sometimes we could -- And in fact, we played more often than not. We would -- we were just playing. We would play with tennis balls and we could get those almost for free because they had the tennis courts up on Fullerton and Sheffield. And you’d get the old tennis balls that nobody wanted and you’d get ’em either dirt cheap or for free. And [00:13:00] then we’d do fast-pitching and then who’s got a hard ball. JJ: So you were making the thing in the walls or --? RR: Yeah, that’s how we -- yeah. JJ: I remember that. RR: And that’s how we’d practice all the time. And then summertime came and then, we’d have games and say, “Hey, you know, this neighborhood’s got a team and this neighborhood’s --” JJ: Right, they were neighborhood teams -- RR: Yeah, right. JJ: -- because I remember I was a -- that first team I was in was the Leprechauns. RR: Oh, God. 12 �JJ: And it was an Italian manager but the name of the team was Leprechauns. So I guess because there were a lot of Irish in (inaudible) there. RR: Yeah, the big organizer was us was a guy by the name of [Glenn Messa?]. He was Cuban. JJ: Oh, he was a Cuban. RR: Yeah, he was probably- -- and I don’t know when I met Glenn, either. Probably about sixth grade. JJ: Really? RR: Yeah. JJ: He was from Lincoln Park there? RR: Yeah, he was right there. We all lived -- you know they had an apartment building up on Maud and Sheffield? where we lived. That’s And I remember his sister’s name was [00:14:00] [Tootsie?] and I said, “Where did you get a name like that?” That was her -- that was -- she had another name but she always went by Tootsie. And Glenn would say, “Hey, this -- two blocks down, they want to play us. So get Glaw, get --” so we’d get all the guys we needed. [Sulaski?] and all the other guys. Sulaski, that’s right. And we would go and, “Where are we -- where are we meeting them?” And we’d meet them -- one of the places we used to play was on the corner of Racine and Belden. And I think it was -- we called it Os- -- I don’t think it was Oscar 13 �Mayer. JJ: I don’t know -- RR: It was that -- JJ: -- if they had Oscar Mayer, yeah. RR: Yeah, they had a field there. JJ: Racine and Belden, still up there? RR: Yeah. And we’d go up there because it was grass and it was a real field. JJ: I was afraid to go up there. RR: Oh yeah. There was a -- Because once you crossed Armitage, you were running into some people who didn’t like Hispanics, who didn’t like Blacks. JJ: Right, right, right. RR: Yeah. And then once you went even further north, you were [00:15:00] running into [Chuchi’s?] group, whoever they were. “What are you doing in the neighborhood?” “I don’t know, going to play ball.” (laughter) And then we got to walking Saturday mornings. Sometimes we’d walk and sometimes during the week all the way down Lincoln Park past the old Natural History Museum. JJ: By Armitage (inaudible)? RR: Yeah, Armitage, yeah. JJ: You’d just walk. RR: And then you’d just turn a little bit south and you were at 14 �the ball fields. like four fields. And if you got there first, there was And if you got there first, you could hold it until the rest of the guys got and then you could play. JJ: As you walked through that neighborhood, how -- what relations did you see? RR: Oh, God. Early on, there was a -- oh, it was a beer place that it had shut down. that area. And there was a lot of Germans in And that’s down by Larabee. Larabee and -- yeah, about Larabee [00:16:00] and what street would that be? JJ: Yeah. Just south of Armitage. The only reason I’m saying it is I kind of remember or maybe you can let me know -RR: It’s just north of Saint Michael’s. JJ: Right, it was more like segregated or something. RR: Oh, yeah, all the -- yeah. JJ: Am I -- (laughs) am I just -- RR: No, you’re not imagining that. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: Oh yeah. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: Oh yeah, it was segregated. Oh, good God. You know, you’d go out with a young lady who happens to be Polish. Well, she lives in a Polish neighborhood -15 �JJ: In a Polish block. RR: -- all Polish people block. JJ: So there were two or three blocks that were Polish? RR: Yeah. People, “What are you doing here? Polish.” JJ: “Okay.” You’re not “Get moving, get moving.” So this was the neighborhood of Lincoln Park, the community. RR: Yeah. JJ: And that was divided by ethnic groups. RR: Right. If you went further east along -- let’s see, what street is that? I can’t remember the street. one [Feimer’s?] was on. But it’s the There was a lot of Germans there for a while and they [00:17:00] started moving out. But north of that, if you went one block north of Wisconsin? JJ: Okay, Wisconsin? RR: Yeah. Between Halsted and it would be about Bissell Street. Or Dayton, right in that area. A bunch of Italians. JJ: Okay. So north of Wisconsin between Halsted and Bissell? RR: Italian -- yeah, heavy Italian. And then back here is the Germans -JJ: So Wisconsin to Armitage, Halsted to Bissell was Italian. RR: Yeah, it was a heavy Italian. JJ: And we’re talking about what year was it? 16 �RR: Oh, we’re talking the years we were in grade school so it would be 1959 through about 1963. JJ: So ’59 to ’63, that was the Italian section. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Because that didn’t even run up to by [Roma’s?] because We’d go there and get Italian food some -- Roma’s was over -RR: Oh yeah. Well, Roma’s was a totally different animal. JJ: It was a totally different animal. Why was that? Roma’s was on Webster and Sheffield. RR: Yeah because -- Webster -- yeah, [00:18:00] Webster and Sheffield. JJ: So what do you mean it was a different animal? RR: Those were different people. JJ: A breed of Italian? RR: Yeah, it was a different breed of -- they were really hostile, I thought. JJ: Hostile? RR: Hostile, yeah. I mean -- Yeah. Because the Landinis and those people, we went -- [Paul Landini?] went to my school. JJ: And [Monastero?] was at -- RR: Monastero -- JJ: They were friendly with you guys -- RR: Yeah, we all got along. JJ: Of Armitage, yeah. But once you got north of -- 17 �RR: Yeah. JJ: Or Dickens, really. RR: Yeah, Dickens, right. You’re right. The only place that was really safe was what, the old bakery that we used to be on Sheffield just north of Dickens. JJ: Just north of Dickens? Oh, yeah, right -- RR: Yeah, we’d go there, pick up our stuff and get out. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah. RR: Yeah. JJ: Yeah. So that was in the city. So you used to go there and pick a [brick?], too? RR: Yeah, absolutely. I had -- JJ: Just north of Dickens on Sheffield. RR: Yeah. On the west side of the street. Yeah. JJ: Okay. So you said you’d go, you’d walk in and then leave? RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: So what do you mean it wasn’t safe? That was -- You didn’t -- you didn’t feel safe? RR: Well, [00:19:00] there was lots of times you didn’t feel safe. In my own neighborhood, there was times when we were younger, a lot of the older Italian kids would pick on you, you know? And after a while, you kind of earned your spot. Which is like, “Hey, I’m not here to do anything bad. I’m just living here and I don’t mess with you. You don’t mess 18 �with me.” JJ: So there was like a sprinkling of Spanish people like if neither -- because you didn’t really live there but they didn’t really want you there. RR: Want you -- they didn’t want us there, no. JJ: I’m not putting words in your mouth. RR: No, no. That’s a good way of saying no, they didn’t really want us there. I think -- JJ: And you were actually afraid to go to this bakery. RR: You were nervous. You always watched what was around you and who was around. JJ: And how old were you then? RR: Oh God. How old were you then? I can remember that from the time I was sixth, seventh grade. When I got older, you got bigger and you got physically so people didn’t -- and you knew more people. But the [00:20:00] big area I stayed away from was the Roma’s area. There was a girl that I wanted to date that was over on Kenmore and Webster. “What are you doing here? our neighborhood.” And it was like, You got to get the hell out of You know, it’s, like, “Hey.” that point, I was already in high school. And at So it was -- yeah, there was -- it wasn’t all the time but it was often enough to make you stay alert as to who was around you and what the hell they were doing. Because you got followed a 19 �couple of times and it was threatening. A couple of times, we got -- there was a -JJ: And then they had a gang I remember or something and --? RR: There was a group of people there. I didn’t know that it was a gang but apparently there was one there. JJ: But the name of the restaurant was called Roma’s. RR: Yeah, Roma’s, yeah. JJ: So that was kind of nationalistic, right? RR: Oh yeah, that whole area. JJ: (laughs) For the Italians? RR: Except right across the street was [Kelly’s Bar?] so there Roma’s? was [00:21:00] an Irish enclave somewhere in there. JJ: Right, right. RR: That was -- JJ: So right across from Roma’s was Kelly’s. RR: Yeah, Kelly’s was right at the -- JJ: And it was playing actually down the street, there was a hillbilly bar. RR: Oh. JJ: [The Oasis?]. It was called The Oasis on that corner of Houston and Webster. RR: Oh yeah. Okay. JJ: Do you remember that place? RR: Yeah, I do. Darn, I’d forgotten about it. Yeah. 20 �JJ: So this is -- you’re in the same -- you’re in the same -- RR: Now, the most problem I had in that whole neighborhood was with a hillbilly kid. JJ: Oh, it was? RR: Yeah, it was. hillbilly kid. The worst problem I ever had was with a He always caught me just south of Armitage near -- on Sheffield several times. A couple times, I got slugged and finally, I decided to fight back. point, I said, “This is it. And at some was kind of like an outlier. This has got to quit.” But he with two, three other guys. I didn’t see him hanging out He was trying to establish a little turf area [00:22:00] of his own. JJ: But they would select people. I remember -- RR: Oh, hell yeah. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). I had a problem with them just, “What are you doing here?” And “Bla,” and just -RR: Oh, no. sure. They would grab you and sometimes toss you. Yeah, Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) RR: It wasn’t always that terrible. I mean, because we knew -- you know, you’re talking Monastero Landini, you know, a lot of times, that saved us from hassles. But like I said, too -21 �JJ: How would you describe the neighborhood? softball teams? I mean, they had I mean, hardball teams and -- RR: Yeah. JJ: Was it a tight-knit neighborhood? Were the people normal? Was it pretty stable or unstable? RR: I thought it was pretty stable at the time but if I look back at it, I’d say, “Gee, that’s an unstable neighborhood,” because you -- a lot of people transitioning in and out. Lot of people in their -- JJ: Who would transition there? RR: Oh, I’ll give you an example. Next door, we would have a hillbilly family [00:23:00] living there for two, three months to a year and then they would move out. another family would move in. And then They were working in the -- a lot of the stuff that was along Clybourn. And when they weren’t needed anymore, they went looking some other place for a job. JJ: Because Clybourn was where they had the factories. RR: All the factories, yeah. JJ: So people were moving in because of the factories. RR: Yeah. So you had the boilermakers, you had the -- what do you call it? The dye makers, you had the frame factory, you had the -- Siemens was down a little bit further. had the porcelain place. You There’s all sorts of places up 22 �there. But those started shutting down and as they began to shut down -JJ: What year did they shut down? RR: Oh, God. school. Probably by -- towards the junior year of high So it’d have been about 1960- [00:24:00] -- oh, ’65, ’66. You could already see a change starting to happen. JJ: Factories are shutting down (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah. A lot of the people started moving out. I started seeing more Hispanics then. JJ: So why do you think they were moving out? RR: Mostly economic reasons for the people that I knew. Some of the people who were long time there were I think basically saying, “Ooh, this is a changing neighborhood. Got to get out.” JJ: Changing neighborhood because -- RR: Yeah, they were white people who were moving out because Blacks and the Hispanics were moving in. JJ: And that’s why they were moving out? RR: Oh yeah, for sure. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: No. JJ: The first is economic. RR: So for the people that I hung out with, it was economic. 23 �For the people who were long-time residents, they saw this as the neighborhood’s going to hell so we got to get out of there. JJ: You had been there for a while so you knew they were longtime residents. RR: Yeah. JJ: And now, these are long-time residents that are moving. RR: They’re moving out. JJ: The Italians and Germans and everything. RR: They’re all moving out, yeah. JJ: They’re moving out. RR: [00:25:00] Because what’s -- the first ones to moves out were probably -- let’s see. ’64. It would’ve been about ’63, That German area moved out. Right about that time, there was -JJ: The whole German community. RR: Yeah, the whole -- just about the whole German community disappeared. JJ: Where were they at and what were the German -- RR: They were the ones down on Dayton and just south of Armitage. JJ: Just south of Armitage? RR: Yeah. JJ: Now, is that where all the Italians were? 24 �RR: The Italians were on the north part of that. were on the south. The Germans That disappeared; the Italians stayed on. JJ: Okay. So the Italians were in the north closer to Armitage -- RR: Right. JJ: -- and the Germans were -- RR: Further back. JJ: -- closer to Willow Street? RR: Yeah, Willow. JJ: So in the same area, just south of the Italians. RR: And we started getting a lot of [00:26:00] Blacks coming up Yeah. along that corridor. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, that area. JJ: Where it turns -- RR: So as that came up, these guys -- because I knew a couple of guys there. west. They moved out to -- they moved way out Some of them moved out to the suburbs. JJ: So you’re saying there, you could see like a line? RR: Yeah, the line’s shifting. JJ: Like the line shifting from one ethnic group to another ethnic group. RR: Yeah, yeah. There were Blacks there. I don’t want to say 25 �gentry but they were. Because when I worked at Feimer’s, we would have -- even in -- well, that would’ve been sixth grade. We had Black people, hard-working Black people, who lived in that area who came in who I knew all the way through the time I started college. And they were good people and they lived somewhere in that area. And they would complain. “Oh my God, the neighborhood’s changing. It’s no longer --” JJ: Who was complaining? RR: The Black. JJ: The (inaudible) -- RR: I remember this Black lady complaining. JJ: We got [00:27:00] Mexicans and Puerto Ricans (inaudible). (laughter) RR: Yeah. No, we -- the Blacks, they were complaining about some of the Blacks. JJ: Oh, some other Blacks. RR: Yeah. JJ: Oh, okay. RR: Well, it was strange because it, like I said, to me I saw They said, “They don’t know how to behave.” That’s kind of a shame to hear that from them. it as stable. JJ: But they were worried, they were worried. As a stigma? RR: Yeah, and then you’d see the changes coming. And as the changes came, people started moving out and people didn’t 26 �take care of their places as much. And people who had been there a long time were complaining. JJ: I was like, “Oh.” But this was not an urban renewal program. This is just people just moving in. RR: No. Just people moving in. JJ: One group moving in -- RR: Yeah. JJ: -- and this had to do with migration after the -- RR: Migrations, yeah. JJ: Because now, you’ve got all these Spanish people coming in Job opportunities. -RR: Oh yeah. JJ: -- out of nowhere. RR: Oh, well, a lot of them were coming from Mexico and from other places. And where are they going to go? [00:28:00] Puerto Ricans were moving in. In fact, the Puerto Ricans tended to move -- do you remember Wisconsin Street? JJ: Right. RR: Wisconsin? Okay. So there was a whole -- there was an apartment building there on Wisconsin and Sheffield. And you had a lot of -JJ: Oh, on Wisconsin and Sheffield? RR: Yeah, right there. And you had Puerto Ricans because we knew some of them there. Most of the Mexicans were moving 27 �in -JJ: Where was the Mexican section? Where were they? RR: The Mexican section was more down between Maud and Willow on Sheffield. JJ: On Sheffield right in there. RR: Yeah. JJ: That was the only Mexican section? RR: Yeah. JJ: But there was a little section. RR: Yeah, there was a little section. JJ: So between -- RR: It was -- several apartment buildings were completely full. They didn’t -- we didn’t get a whole lot of other -- Yeah. JJ: Okay. And this was between Maud and what? RR: Maud and Willow. So you’ve got Clybourne and then Sheffield goes up, Willow cuts in here, Maud. So it’s about a block and a half, two blocks. JJ: And actually, that’s where you live. RR: On the other [00:29:00] side. JJ: Oh, on the other side. RR: Yeah. JJ: So you were living in -- RR: Yeah, just a little bit south. JJ: -- the Mexicans (inaudible). I didn’t know that. I mean, 28 �I had a -RR: I didn’t either until my mom was telling me. JJ: (inaudible) told that to us. RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Of course, to me, everybody was a Puerto Rican but (laughs) -- RR: Well, you were a -- you were just north of -- you lived just north of -- JJ: I’m just kidding. RR: -- Armitage in that apartment place. JJ: Right. RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: So we had planning meetings (inaudible). We had been on Dayton Street near Willow before that. JJ: Dayton near Willow. Okay. JJ: And then we finally made it up to Armitage. RR: So you know that -- what the tavern there on the corner of Willow and Bissell was a tavern? JJ: Yeah, there was a tavern up there. RR: We used to go there all the time and bowl. JJ: Okay. RR: Because they’d charge us nothing, you know? And as long as -- and the German kid and I used to do that all the time. And then after a while, we were banned. 29 �JJ: You were banned from going in there? RR: Yeah. And part of it, I guess, was because [00:30:00] we weren’t of age to drink and we shouldn’t have been in the place. But for years, I mean years, we used to -- Saturdays or whenever we could get the money together, we’d go and bowl. One of the kids that I knew was on Dayton. In fact, it was Dayton and Willow. His name was Traum, [Helmut Traum?]. JJ: Dayton and Willow, there was like a little grocery store there. And we were afraid, talking about being afraid of going to the bread place. We were afraid to go into that grocery store because there was an Italian gang, an Irish and Italian gang -RR: In there. JJ: -- either Irish or Italian. father got pushed around. But I remember I think my They were -- I really don’t remember them having a gang fight with the -- they used to have the (inaudible) made out of tin. So they were using it as a shield and throwing -RR: Sticks and -- JJ: -- throwing glass [00:31:00] and sticks. And I remember they had -- I remember one guy saying, “I’m glad I’m white,” because he had glass in his eye. RR: God. 30 �JJ: And I was just a little kid seeing it. RR: I remember stuff like that particularly -- JJ: That was on Dayton (inaudible) -- RR: And that drifted further north, that sort of thing. Because I know in that area south of DePaul itself, in the alleys, there was a couple of times where there was fights exactly like that. We came in after one and it was a mess. Yeah. JJ: By DePaul? RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: So that was a -- so after the school or --? RR: This was a -- I think it was like a -- JJ: Are you talking about (inaudible) or --? RR: Yeah. JJ: So there was little gangs up there? RR: Yeah. JJ: But these were Irish? RR: Irish, Italian as far as I knew. Belden, south of Belden and -- Italian? Because you know, again, I didn’t like going up in that area anyway. The only time I do was to go up to the library. JJ: To go to the library. RR: Yeah, up on Fullerton and Sheffield. JJ: Right. RR: And it was like -- again, it was like hurry, hurry through [00:32:00] Yeah. 31 �these two neighborhoods so I can get to mine. could get hassled. Because you “Where are you going?” JJ: So I mean how had we met? RR: Oh, this was from fifth grade all the way through eighth grade. JJ: By the time I was in -- So you’re in Saint Teresa’s school, a Catholic school, and you got to go to the library. You’re not thinking about -- you’re not a gang member. RR: No. JJ: You’re just going to school. RR: Yeah. JJ: But you can’t go to school because of these gangs? RR: Well, you can get hassled. JJ: But it’s not just gangs because these are gangs based on your -- RR: Ethnicity, yeah. JJ: Is that the way the gangs were? RR: Yeah, pretty much so. JJ: So they (inaudible) ethnicity in a gang? RR: Yeah, just about. ethnicity. Or that area. But mostly, it was Because you’re talking about the hillbillies and you’re talking about the Irish, you’re talking about the Italians. JJ: So I mean, we grew up in a neighborhood where we -32 �everybody -- there was a distinction between [00:33:00] ethnicity. RR: Oh yeah. Yeah, there was. JJ: That’s what I meant by segregated or -- RR: To me, it was segregated in - besides the way you just explained it - it was also segregated because there are whole blocks -- JJ: But segregated is not about race -- RR: Well, yeah. JJ: -- when you think about segregation. But this was ethnicity. RR: Ethnicity, right. Because if you went over by Sacred Heart on Augusta near Western, that four square blocks was all Polish and I got chased out of there a couple of times. JJ: What were you doing there? RR: I was dating a chick. JJ: (laughs) RR: We were -- in the ’60s, we were beginning -- it’s okay, you know? You can date somebody who’s not your same ethnicity and -JJ: So you’re saying the city was like that, too, (inaudible) - RR: Oh, the city was absolutely. JJ: The city was ethnically divided. 33 �RR: I’m trying to remember who it was. It was on Wood on North Avenue roughly and we were visiting somebody. This lady comes out and looks at us. She’s like, [00:34:00] “You’re a good-looking Greek kid.” And I -- at that point, I’m smart enough to know, “Let her talk. shut.” Keep your mouth It turns out we were in -- at the edge of a Greek neighborhood or that square block. yeah, well, you’ll be safe here.” I’m not?” And it’s like, “Oh, I’m going, “Oh, you mean (laughs) It was that sort of thing because you got -- if we wanted stuff that was Hispanic, we would go down to 12th Street. Because -- JJ: Twelfth Street? RR: Yeah, 12th Street, Saint Francis. JJ: Oh, Saint Francis. RR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: Why did you go all the way down there? RR: Because no one knew what cilantro was. Yeah. Oh, you remember Saint Francis. That’s -- and -- And then my ma wanted it for some of the food she made so every so often, we would go down there and we would take the Halsted bus all the way down. And then do masa for tortillas or whatever ma wanted to make or and then we’d go. And that’s when you’d wander a little farther [00:35:00] south to our Maxwell Street. JJ: Right. 34 �RR: And that was -- JJ: Because that was a Mexican area. This is -- and you’re talking about Taylor Street and -RR: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh Taylor, you got to watch out. Because you go West Taylor -JJ: Taylor, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: Oh we -- we didn’t even go. JJ: The (inaudible) was the name of the gang (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah. JJ: Taylor Street groups, Taylor Street culture was the name of the gang. We dated girls from there. I knew that because that was -- I was researching gangs then. (laughs) RR: Oh, God. That’s one place we didn’t go into. JJ: (inaudible) town but you’re saying there on 12th Street was Mexicans. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Because in fact, that was one of the only places where they had Spanish mass. RR: Mm-hmm, at Saint Francis. JJ: My mother used to go all the way -- we lived near Holy Name Cathedral -- RR: Oh, wow. JJ: -- and we used to go all the way there. We used to go all the way to Saint Francis because that was the only Spanish 35 �mass in the city, I guess. It was a Mexican community. Or they’re not the only one at least (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: It was probably the only one early on. JJ: Apparently, there was one (inaudible) because you used to go to the church. RR: Yeah. [00:36:00] Because -- and that’s in grade school. JJ: All the way (inaudible). RR: Yeah. JJ: Because you say nobody knew where cilantro was? [laughter] RR: I’d go into a place and say like National or whatever and Yeah. And that was mostly for supplies. say, “Hey, my parents want me to get this thing. It’s like parsley but it’s called cilantro,” and I didn’t know what it was in English. And they’d look and say, “Oh, parsley.” “No, no, it’s not parsley. carry it.” You can see.” “Oh, we don’t It’s like it was really strange. So you’d walk down there and even if it was a short area from, oh, about 12th Street down, two blocks, you had the old tortilla makers, masa for tamales, they had the imports so ma would get her mole down there. Because she couldn’t get it any place else so she’d get a bunch of cilantro. It was -- in that sense that you had a little enclave [00:37:00] there. We knew that there was other Hispanic on the South Side but we never went farther than 12th Street. That’s about as far 36 �as we went. JJ: But you said there was some other (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RR: And there was Greek -- yeah. And we knew Greektown because it was just north of there. JJ: So Greektown was actually there were Greek people living there. RR: Oh yeah, yeah. JJ: It wasn’t like today where there’s just restaurants. RR: Oh no, it was Greektown. Yeah. It is. That was one of the things that was amazing to me early on as I traveled around the city. There was enclaves of people and they were definitely -- Well, Helmut moved to a block north of Armitage and roughly Kildare. And at that time, it was like two square blocks of nothing but German people. The street where that ended on the other side were all Polish and that’s where [Lewandowski?] lived. Let’s see. Wolfgang -- I don’t know if you remember [Wolfgang Holtz?]? JJ: Wolfgang, oh yeah. RR: [00:38:00] Wolfgang Holtz, John (inaudible), Helmut Traum. Traum moved out there. That’s where he met Lewandowski and that’s where I eventually -JJ: Are these -- Wolf, wasn’t he in Saint Teresa’s or --? RR: Yeah, he was at Saint Teresa’s. 37 �JJ: So his name was (inaudible) -- RR: And he moved out. He didn’t graduate with us. wind up at DePaul Academy. “We moved out.” JJ: Okay. But he did And I’d say, “Where you been?” And that was -- He went -- after Saint Joseph’s, he went to DePaul in high school. RR: Yeah, he went to DePaul Academy. my choice. Yeah. Because Waller was It was either Waller or DePaul. I said I’m going -JJ: And I went to Waller. RR: Oh, God. JJ: (laughs) But I actually came from Newberry. problems at Newberry. And I had My mother was working with training the catechism classes and she got me into Saint Teresa’s. RR: How did you get into Saint Michael’s? Because you got into Saint Michael’s thing and I -JJ: No, no, no. Saint Michael’s was [00:39:00] my mother was working with the Caballeros of San Juan -RR: Caballeros San Juan, yeah. JJ: -- and there were a few students that were Spanish -- they were Puerto Rican that used to go to Saint Michael’s but very few. The rest were from public schools. mother was doing catechism classes. And my But she would do it for the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de Maria. But 38 �they had a big council on the three there. And so I became -- because I was an altar boy at Saint Teresa’s, I went to the first Spanish mass there. Because their whole thing was to give Spanish mass. RR: Right. It can -- JJ: And they were -- they achieved that at Saint Teresa’s and Saint Michael’s. And I became like one of the first altar boys at Saint Michael’s for the Spanish mass. So that was my badge of honor to do that. RR: Yeah, because that’s a part of you I never knew. I knew you were doing [00:40:00] stuff at Saint Michael’s but I’m going, “Why is he going all that far?” with Saint Teresa’s? JJ: That’s because my mother was working there. the catechism classes. She was doing And she would put in the stuff from like the priesthood and put together. RR: Yeah, I know. Remember the priest that took you and me up to [Donaldson, Wisconsin?]? JJ: What do you mean? RR: Oh, God. I don’t remember the whole thing but -- I don’t know. At some point or another, you and I got together when we were talking about what we were going to do about changing the world. JJ: What do you mean? What were we talking about? RR: How things had to change. We can’t keep up with -- it was the time of Vietnam War. It was also the time of Missiles 39 �Remember Anne’s class, we were -- of October. JJ: Was it history in Anne’s -- that’s about the eighth grade. RR: Eighth grade, yeah. JJ: So we were talking political -- RR: Seventh and eighth grade, we were already talking politics about how -- JJ: Are you sure? Are you serious? RR: Oh, I’m dead serious. JJ: I don’t remember it. RR: Oh, I do. JJ: What do you remember? RR: What I remember mostly is we would have -- and this was the I do. other Sister, Hermann Joseph that’s a -- [00:41:00] You were an altar boy, I was an altar boy. We’d always take the early masses because that way, we could (laughs) we wouldn’t have to show up at noon. JJ: What would we do? RR: Yeah. JJ: What could we do if we took the early masses? RR: Well, if you take the early masses, you don’t get assigned the ten and eleven o’clock mass on a Sunday which ruins your Sunday. JJ: Oh, okay. RR: And then also if you got the 6:00, 6:30 during the week, 40 �you didn’t have to go to mass for class. JJ: So you were pretty good at that because I remember I was just following you. RR: Oh, God. That was -- I remember that. Good God. JJ: So you used to take the early masses? RR: Yeah. JJ: But I used to take the early masses because I felt bad that sometimes, the other altar boys wouldn’t show up. RR: Well, that was a big problem and then that’s why Father loved us because you’d take the early masses? are nuts. But I preferred the early masses. These guys I always did. And somewhere along the line, we were -JJ: What was his name? RR: Oh, God. Father what? [Father Brown?] was there for a while. remember Father Brown. later on. I [00:42:00] [Father Obi?] was there There’s one in there I’m missing. remember most of all is [Father Headley?]. The one I He was the Hispanic-speaking priest. JJ: He was there? RR: He was there later, much later. JJ: (inaudible). Because he was involved with the Caballeros, also. RR: Yeah. He was. He -- JJ: I didn’t know he was at Saint Teresa’s, too. 41 �RR: Oh, yeah. And do you know he got kicked out? Or he got kicked into missionary work because they were beginning to think he was a little too radical? JJ: Right. RR: And I thought -- JJ: Oh, they say he was too radical? RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) think he was radical (inaudible) -- RR: Well, he was rad- -- JJ: Oh, he was radical all the time. RR: There was a -- one of the first times I -- when I was I -- I didn’t know that. serving mass for him -JJ: You served mass with him? RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Well, I might’ve. RR: Oh God. I thought you did, too. So he was -- he came in. He was doing a Sunday mass and I don’t remember if it was the 8:00 or 9:00. was one of those times; I got a later one. It And [00:43:00] he came in and one of the big issues we’d had at some point in school and other places was having to do with some of the civil rights stuff that was going on about whether people were being treated fairly. And since we didn’t have a lot of Blacks, we didn’t have any Blacks almost, we talked about other -- and how things had to change and 42 �stuff. And that’s where we -- you brought up something about, “Oh, yeah,” and I had been talking about the priesthood, too. And there was -- JJ: There was a diagram? RR: Yeah, so you brought the CSSRs, the ones out of Saint Michael’s. And that’s one of the times and I can’t remember if it was in eighth grade -JJ: So it was in there when you sent me the name of the -- RR: The Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer. JJ: Okay, I brought that up in the conversation or --? RR: Yeah, as part of somebody you knew and they were looking to see if we were interested in going -- [00:44:00] JJ: To The Redemptorists, okay. RR: To Redemptorists, yeah. And a priest said, “Hey, do you want to come and visit the minor seminary?” And you and I took a ride with him all the way up there. JJ: So you went with me there. RR: Yeah. We went together. I got stung on the knee with a bee. I remember that that morning. JJ: Okay. I remember I took a trip but -- RR: And then The Servites. JJ: Was it -- oh, they were called The Servites? RR: And then there was another -- and The Servite came through -43 �JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) recruited us. RR: They recruited us, yeah. They came to school and talked to us and they were talking about going to minor seminary. You and I got -- “Hey, let’s -- you know, we could pair up. We could have a good time.” JJ: You know, I remember a conversation about because I wanted to be a -- to serve the priesthood. That I remember. it wasn’t -- to me, that wasn’t political. But It was just like we needed to save the Latino (laughs) community or something. RR: Yeah. That eventually became a -- JJ: But that’s what you mean by save the world. RR: Yeah. The world was where we lived and what we knew. The Latino community was you, me, and -JJ: [00:45:00] I was interpreting it differently than I would’ve interpreted it today. RR: Yeah. You, me, and Glenn Messa. And Glenn Messa was Cuban and he thought that Puerto Ricans and Mexicans were below (laughs) his dignity. And he didn’t even speak Spanish. So that was it. JJ: I didn’t know as a kid (inaudible) -- we had all (inaudible). We had a whole connection with it. RR: Yeah. So Father Headley is starting mass. JJ: (inaudible) -- so if Father Headley was there, you served. 44 �I must’ve served, too, because -RR: You did. JJ: -- we were there at the same time. RR: Yeah. JJ: I remember [Father Hoffmann?] (inaudible) because for some Because you and I stopped serving probably -- reason -RR: Oh, Hoffmann, yeah. The guy -- JJ: That’s why -- RR: Yeah. JJ: I had a lot of respect for him. But he had -- he kind of - - later on, it felt like distance when the Young Lords came out. And he didn’t support us. RR: Oh, yeah. I remember -- JJ: Because I remember walking into the church one day and he was talking against me. And I had a -- like get -- trying to raise money for my bond and [00:46:00] I had no way to get bonded out. And I walked in there and he was like, “Are you sure we should trust him getting him out? he doesn’t pay back or --?” I was there. What if So then, he turned around and But I respect that (inaudible). But he did support us (inaudible). RR: Yeah, Headley basically told the people that came in -- JJ: He doesn’t care, either. RR: Yeah, I know. (laughs) Headley came in and he was saying mass and 45 �he had been around. And he -- here’s his -- the eight o’clock mass is where all the -- most of the people came. You got plenty of other people in the other but -- and he gets up and he goes, “I’m ditching today’s sermon,” he says. “I’m looking at you guys. How dare you come into this place of worship when you’re doing --” and he started listing things like being racist, offensive talking, cheating. He says, “You guys come in here.” He says, “Clean that up before [00:47:00] you come in.” “Oh, my God. I’m going, He sounds like you, me, and what we’ve been talking about for so long that needs to change.” JJ: Mm-hmm. This is Headley Father. RR: Yeah, this is Headley. are wide open. Yeah. The people were like mouths I’m like, “Go for it!” (laughs) The one -- Father Brown is the one and I like Father Brown. But we were in the middle of Vietnam War and we -JJ: So when I -- are you saying I was talking like this, too, or --? RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: We were talking like that. RR: I was talking like that, you were talking like that. JJ: We were both talking like that about changing the world in that sense? RR: Yeah, in sense that we need -46 �JJ: This is pre-Young Lords before I got into the political arena. RR: To me, my dad’s always been a political animal. So even though -JJ: Your dad was a political animal like that? RR: Yeah. JJ: What’s your dad’s name again? RR: [Ricardo?]. JJ: Ricardo (inaudible). RR: [Guadalupe?]. JJ: So he was a political animal? RR: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: He was very much seeing that the world, the government, And he -- Yeah. And -- [00:48:00] the social things should be different. JJ: Where does that (inaudible)? RR: Oh, God. Him? Dad was a quasi-philosopher and he grew up during the persecution of the Catholic church in Mexico. And he was put in a seminary almost as an orphan for a number of years. And he came out with this kind of philosopher’s bent. Socialist. JJ: Hm. RR: Yeah. He saw things very much as kind of a And he didn’t see the -- (inaudible) Socialist? For socialism? He -- he needs to be an equality of things. And he 47 �always saw that things could be better but it’s not going to get better if we keep doing the dumb things we’re doing. So Dad would preach a lot to us. And -- JJ: [00:49:00] And their siblings are -- what are their names? RR: Oh, my sister is Rosalia. And my next one would be Rebecca, and then there’s Reynaldo, and my littlest one is -- I got to not call her -- her name is Sochi. JJ: So three girls and -- RR: Three. JJ: Same in my family. RR: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we all -- There was three girls and I so -- Well, it was -- I mean, there’s 11 years’ difference between my little sister and me. And I -- Ma got kind of sick there for a while so I was doing a lot of the familytype stuff because Dad had to go to work. But yeah, yeah, there was always an issue in our family of community service and I became an altar boy at Saint Joe’s. And so I had been so -- [00:50:00] [Sister Hilda?], Sister Hilda, fourth grade is where -- when I started -JJ: You mean at Saint Teresa’s. RR: At Saint Teresa’s, yeah. JJ: You were not an altar boy at Saint Joseph’s. You were there, too? RR: Yeah. JJ: But you were already an altar boy. 48 �RR: Yeah. JJ: So you were already (inaudible). RR: I was ready for anything, yeah. was pretty religious. way. So when we (inaudible) -I would even -- yeah, I I still am today but in a different And so the issues from a political point of view was always that things could be better. And one of the big things that was impacting to me and always did was the idea of racism. Because if we had Black kids in the house or in the yard playing, the neighbors would go nuts. And my mother would say basically, “Look: as long as they behave, they stay here. You can’t keep your mouth shut, you leave because I won’t have any of that.” So Ma was always -- so we had all [00:51:00] sorts of kids. And the German kids if they wanted to come over, the Italian kids could. no racist stuff. But The minute it started, she’d be out there going, “You need to leave. You can’t behave that way.” for me, I had a broader view from the get-go. So And with a dad who was constantly saying, “We need a fair wage. We need to have unions or we need things that --" JJ: He used to talk about workers’ rights. RR: Yeah, workers’. JJ: He was a Socialist. RR: Yeah, exactly. JJ: I didn’t know that. That’s all he ever did. That’s what I understand. But I didn’t know anything about that. 49 �When we were hanging out together, we -RR: It was sports and philosophy most of the -- JJ: Sports and philosophy mostly (inaudible). RR: Yeah, that’s what it was most of the time. JJ: But we were talking about wanting to get into the priesthood. RR: Yeah, because we were going to serve. JJ: I mean, did we talk about -- have those conversations or -? RR: Yeah, we talked about going -- in fact -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: -- at one point, the most I remember is out of eighth grade because we were -- the question was whether we were going to go. [00:52:00] And which one? Redemptorists or The Servites? Was it going to be The And we were tending toward The Servites because they were going to give us a free ride and neither one of our parents could afford it. of us were service-oriented. what do you want to do?” And both And we talked about, “Well, “Well, first we got to get through this thing.” JJ: What do you mean service-oriented? RR: Service-oriented. We tended to do things for people. We tended to -- you have a thing that I don’t have which is charisma. I don’t -- I’ve never had charisma. I was kind 50 �of different but -JJ: What do you mean I had charisma and you didn’t? RR: When you talked about something, people could stand there and listen to you. got a point.” And they would go, “Oh, yeah, the guy’s can’t talk.” Me, I’d do that and they’d say, “The guy So you had a certain -- when we needed [00:53:00] a baseball team together, you could get one together faster than we could. JJ: But it sounds like a community organizing. RR: Hey, that’s okay. W. Thurman taught me some of that. It took me until I was in high school and college to learn those traits. You had them so -- [Jeff Williams?] is another guy who I learned from and that was in college. But it -- we were more community. We need to change things, we needed to -- and the priesthood seemed like a logical way to go. And what -- the first thing that went to hell was -JJ: I do remember wanting to be like the first priest because that’s what the [Retemptors?] were saying. We don’t have any Latinos priests -RR: Mm-hmm. We don’t have no Latinos, we don’t have anybody who can -JJ: See, I wanted to be the first. Be the first, just you and I. 51 �RR: Yeah. JJ: But I wanted to be the first priest. (inaudible). So my only first that But you were -- wanted the same thing. [00:54:00] RR: Oh yeah. I wanted -- having grown up how I did, I saw the need to change the world. JJ: But I also knew I had to change me first. You can’t jump into it. training. And -- You got to get See, you were more intellectual than I was. I always looked up to you because of your intelligence at that time. And to me, I just -RR: Hey, I’ve gotten stupider. (laughter) As the years have gone on, it’s gotten worse. JJ: I think it’s just part of it. I got to learn from you. RR: Oh, no. JJ: But I had charisma and you had the intelligence, I wish I knew what I -- then what I know now. intellectually. RR: But we were going to go and then I’m not sure what happened was we both applied to The Servites. And we needed to get -- we got signatures from the priest, parish priest, and we needed something from Sister Anne. And [00:55:00] as best as I can remember, Sister Anne and the priest would not sign yours. JJ: Right. 52 �RR: The impression I got and I’m trying -- because I never got the story straight because it ended right there. The way I got it was that your Ma owed Sister Anne or the school some money for your tuition. And since she hadn’t paid it off, Sister withheld her signature. And then the story with the priest and I don’t remember which priest it was at the time. But they wouldn’t send it -- sign it to you because they said that they couldn’t determine that your mother and father were married at the time you were had so they -- you couldn’t be a priest anyway. “That’s wrong.” couldn’t get in. going in.” Because -- and I went, And then it was done. It was like you “Well, if you’re not going in, I ain’t And at [00:56:00] that point, it was the end of eighth grade and I still thought about going. But I figured, “Well, I can always go to the academy, pick up the stuff, and then leave after the academy and go on.” But it didn’t work out that way. JJ: Now, we did owe her some money. RR: Mm-hmm. JJ: That’s true because I -- in fact, I was -- I started selling those candy bars because I felt guilty I hadn’t actually -- RR: Oh, I remember those. JJ: -- switch places selling the candy bars because I felt bad 53 �that we didn’t have the money. RR: Nobody did. JJ: But one of the other reasons that -- the problem was that I started (inaudible), too. It was snowing and we started playing around throwing snowballs at the (inaudible) -RR: Oh, the snowball incident where somebody got hit. JJ: Yeah, and the priest was coming out of the -- he saw that. He was on the bus. So he saw the person get hit or something like that so he knew about -- he heard about the snowball. RR: Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that. JJ: So I guess that was the [00:57:00] broke the camel’s back. The -- RR: But see, to me, that was all wrong and that’s the wrong reason. I mean, you have two eager kids who are willing to go to the edges of hell and you suddenly cut them off? I’m going, “I’m not going by myself here. And We need a team,” you know. JJ: Because we got suspended and we (inaudible) for throwing snowballs at the -- I mean, we apologized (laughs) (inaudible) -- RR: It didn’t do any good. JJ: It didn’t do any good, either. so (inaudible). But we also owed them money But you recall that? 54 �RR: I remember the money thing. And I remember the, now that you bring it up, the snowball thing. God. JJ: So that was the big gossip at the school? RR: No, actually, I got it from my mom. my Ma. I got it mostly from Again, being intellectual, you tend to knock things out that -- so it was sad. JJ: But I didn’t know you quit because I -- RR: No, I had nobody to -- JJ: Because we were pretty tight, we were pretty tight. RR: We were pretty tight there. JJ: [00:58:00] We were tight friends. RR: And it was that summer that we went totally because I had to work full-time and I got a job at UPS. JJ: Oh, really? RR: And then after that didn’t pan out, it was brutal. I worked at Schwinn. And it was like you got to be there at seven o’clock, you get home at 4:00, you’re beat to hell. I mean, working on the assembly line. JJ: So I remember -- RR: And at that point, you were gone. JJ: And then they had a graduation party and I wasn’t invited was another incident. RR: I didn’t go to that, either. (laughs) JJ: You didn’t go to that -- you weren’t invited, either? 55 �RR: (laughs) No, I don’t think so. JJ: So I don’t think you’re -- I don’t think you’re wanted as a Spanish-speaker. walking around. But I found out about it because I’m By that time, I went from wanting to be a priest to wanting to be the best gang member, right? (laughs) Because -- RR: Social organizer, yeah. JJ: That’s why I went into the Young [00:59:00] Lords gang, basically. So I was kind of in between at that point. But the priests, they were not necessarily completely (inaudible). But I think that they were -- they were a little unrepresented. RR: Oh, no. I to this day. But again, here’s what wisdom comes with age. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- but I was changing -I changed. I mean, a few incidents kind of changed me. I mean, during that summer was -- I went to jail two or three times. That summer, I ended up getting deported. RR: Really? JJ: Yeah, I got sent to Puerto Rico on the plane. RR: Oh, God. JJ: Because -- RR: I knew you were in trouble, but I -- we didn’t see each other anymore. 56 �JJ: -- I had some -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it went downhill from there, from that point. RR: And then we went -- at that point, it was like -- JJ: Because I couldn’t afford to go to Catholic high school. I had to go to Waller. RR: Yeah. You know what was paying my Catholic high school was working. Because my dad wasn’t making any money [01:00:00] and Ma was staying home with the kids, so yeah. And then when we were talking before, you were asking why I didn’t get involved with the gang. Because I was too busy trying to make money so that I could go to school. And then also, I was thinking, “What am I going to do when I get out of high school?” JJ: But you know, you mentioned one time before walking through the neighborhood and feeling -- RR: Well, once I knew you and I didn’t care whether you were in a gang or not, and we talked even a couple of times and you already told me you were looking at different -- And I wasn’t quite sure what it was. couple of the guys. And you introduced me to a I don’t even remember their names. mean, it was like a one-, maybe two-time thing. I And then they were all real friendly and it was almost a reassuring thing because I would see some of them every so often and say, “Hey.” And you felt like what we talked about early 57 �on that walking -- first of all, I was older. Second of all, somebody’s got my back. [01:01:00] We had a conversation and I don’t remember when it was. I don’t know if it was the following year or if it was that summer. And you were deciding that this was the route you were going to take and I think you were telling me that that’s what it was. And I kind of said, “Uh,” and you said, “Hey, you need to be a college boy.” And I kind of -- that’s the first time that I heard that term and I have no idea where it came from. need to do.” But it was like, “Yeah, maybe that’s what I And I guess that year was really critical for both of us because at that point, I said, “Okay. going to go that route.” We’re I think if I can be -- it turns out, by the way, I was the first Hispanic to get a master’s degree at DePaul University. JJ: Oh. Congratulations. RR: Well, you know, I didn’t know until two years after I graduated. That’s how -- JJ: [01:02:00] So you went to DePaul University. RR: Yeah. And long, strange story about that one. But anyhow, I got a scholarship and what the scholarship didn’t pay, I could draw from -- and Mom saved all the money I made so some of it went to the household. went to college funds. Some of it -- all it And then I continued to work. So 58 �the reason I can retire and have Medicaid even now is because most of that, not because of this. JJ: But you thought you would walk through the neighborhood and now you feel a little comfortable -- RR: Oh yeah. Because I knew the guys. JJ: And then they got -- there was more Spanish people. RR: There was a lot more Spanish people. JJ: That didn’t even do no good or --? RR: Well, a lot of it did. I didn’t -- I never had problems with any of the Spanish-speaking people. It didn’t matter what they were. Because it was like it was in a way, a familiar face. And another thing is that every so [01:03:00] often, we -- we didn’t do it -- most of the time, we spoke in English. But every so often, we’d go Spanish. There’s something very comforting about speaking Spanish with someone; It’s like a common link. So that it doesn’t matter whether you’re Puerto Rican or whether you’re Guatemalan or Honduran. If you speak the same language, it’s kind of a common bond. That’s the way I felt. Also we were getting more people and then people weren’t making fun of my mom’s pozole because now, everybody was having pozole. And you didn’t have to make fun of me for pasteles because I thought they were cakes. forget that. (laughter) I’ll never That was awesome because we learned from each 59 �other. JJ: When was that? (inaudible) -- RR: You and your mom invited me over. And I said, “Well, should I bring something or something? having for food?” Or what is she “Oh, she’s going to have some pasteles.” [01:04:00] And it didn’t ring on me that it would -pastele in my dialect means cake. And then we got there and I was like, “Those are pasteles?” “You got to open them up and unwrap them and --” “Oh my God, that’s what it is.” It was a wonderful, for me, learning experience. was like, “Wow, that’s what a pastele is.” It And your mom made things -- arroz con habichuelas? RR: Right. JJ: I never heard of that. And it was like, “Hey, that’s good. It has a different taste.” So I got a broader venue and then we had people who were from different parts of Mexico living across the street and they used to trade stuff with my mom. I’m going, “What’s that?” to try it.” She goes, “Oh, you got It would be something new all the time. So in a sense, the link that didn’t exist before started being -we had things in common. had a common language. had some commonality. We were all poor. The second, we Third, we had [01:05:00] foods that And then at that -- right about that time, we started having the first Spanish mass. And then 60 �suddenly, all the Hispanics are coming out of the woodwork and they’re -JJ: So at that time, when you stayed there for Spanish mass at Saint Teresa’s -- RR: Oh God. I’m trying to -- JJ: Is that what you’re talking about? RR: Yeah, exactly. JJ: So I don’t recall that very much. RR: I’m trying to figure out the year. JJ: So you don’t remember the date. RR: It was a big thing because -- JJ: Why was that a big thing? RR: It was a big thing for two reasons. fabulous. That was really surprising. Was it (inaudible)? One, I thought it was Vatican II. Now first of all, because it was an extension of Besides turning the Latin mass into English, now for people like my parents and other people who were mostly Spanish-speaking, it -- now, they could go to church and feel like, “What’d he -- what say?” (laughs) No, no, it’s [01:06:00] in Spanish. JJ: So did they feel like a victory or something or --? RR: Oh, they felt -- JJ: (inaudible) and you felt. RR: I felt it. I did, too. I felt it was a great thing and I wasn’t used to it so initially, it was very uncomfortable. Because I 61 �- even though you can deal with, in the religious sense, it’s a different story. And it was -- it was kind of neat. And it wasn’t too much later that Caballeros de San Juan and las Damas started forming a chapter at Saint Teresa’s and they took off from there. Well, by that time, I was already -- I was off doing my own growing up. JJ: (laughs) So now, now you’re in high school and some of the people from Saint Teresa’s also went to the Saint Vincent, right? RR: Yeah, it’s at DePaul University Academy was the actual name of the place. JJ: It was a high school? RR: It was a high school, yeah. JJ: It was called the DePaul University Academy? RR: Yeah, it was -- JJ: [01:07:00] Who were some of the people that went from Saint Teresa’s? RR: Oh, Landini was there, [Timbo?] was there, I was there. Who else? John Glaw was there, Traum -- JJ: Do you remember [Kuszczak?]? RR: Yeah, I remember Kuszczak. JJ: Do you remember him? RR: Yeah, he was a year ahead of us, wasn’t he? JJ: Yeah, exactly. RR: Yeah, he went there. 62 �JJ: I thought (laughs) he was in a gang or something, I don’t know. (laughs) RR: Yeah. And that was -- JJ: But you recognized him. JJ: I’m trying to think. RR: But he was -- I know he was from Saint Teresa’s. JJ: Who else was there? from Saint Teresa’s. The other people -- Traum used to be Lewandowski was -- others so -- RR: Those are people you grew up with, too. JJ: Yeah, from (inaudible). JJ: So what was high school there like? RR: High school was real interesting. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RR: Oh, God. It was almost an instant replay what we’ve just been saying because early on, it was like I’m trying to think. There was [Castillo?], Rebollar, and [01:08:00] one other kid. There was like three Hispanic kids in that class and it would be -JJ: Rebollar was in there, too? RR: Yeah, freshman year in high school. And then the rest of them were Italians and Germans and what’s it called. And the guy that I got shacked up with because we had to share a -JJ: Did you meet [Angie Rizzo?] at that time? Or no? 63 �RR: No, no. JJ: She (inaudible) Rizzo, Angie Rizzo? RR: No. JJ: Oh, it was all boys. RR: Yeah, no girls. JJ: But she went to DePaul or (inaudible)? RR: No. JJ: No? RR: Never did. JJ: Maybe she went to [Grammars?]. RR: Probably Grammars. JJ: (inaudible). RR: Yeah. JJ: Yeah. RR: Yeah. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: -- we had very few Hispanics and initially on, we got a I didn’t have -- it’s an all-boys school. No? That would be out of the Saint Vincent’s school. So anyhow -- little bit abused. [01:09:00] But then again, it was like we were all there to survive and they were pretty tough discipline-wise. So any time it got out of hand, they got in there and then basically disciplined so it didn’t last long. JJ: We also were -- started going -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- where was this going on? 64 �RR: Dean of Men. JJ: Who? RR: Dean of Men, the priest. JJ: Every time they would come up? RR: Oh, God. JJ: So you mean they came with some (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Oh yeah. They’d walk in there and [Rigacci?] is doing a number on me because I’m a beaner. He’d grab Rigacci and smash him in the mouth and say, “That doesn’t happen here.” And then he’d walk away. JJ: And this is the Dean. RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: He’ll smack that -- RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: That was his way of screaming? RR: Oh God, yeah. JJ: Because someone was harassing you at that time? RR: Oh, yeah. And he would never -- he never looked at me. He just grabbed him and said, “That doesn’t happen here,” he smashed him, and then left. JJ: It was a racial thing. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: There was no doubt about it. And then, “Well.” [01:10:00] No doubt about that. 65 �RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: So you met all the other -- people were harassing the other Latinos (inaudible)? RR: Yeah. There was only three, four in my class. JJ: And they were all -- they were all harassed. RR: Yeah, at one point or another. JJ: So this is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: Three of us got -- oh, yeah. Two of us -- three of us -- So if it got caught -- if they got caught, they got disciplined. can’t remember his name. remember. One guy really -- I I can see his face, but I can’t himself. He took it badly and he absolutely isolated We tried to -- because we were -- and no. would not. through. He He hated everybody and he was going to make it He did, he made it all four years, but he absolutely had nothing to do with any of the students. That was really surprising. But the rest of us, we just -- I mean eventually, we wanted in. I mean, literally, yeah. They weren’t going to tolerate. JJ: So by the end of the first year, you were -- RR: End of the first year I would say, yeah, I would say we were the geeks and then there were the ones that were the jocks. [01:11:00] But everybody -- JJ: What did that mean? Geeks and jocks? RR: Oh God, geeks and jocks. 66 �JJ: You’re (inaudible) -- RR: Oh, we were the ones that studied too much and the jocks were the ones that were -- the guys who played baseball or football. And they had to study because you’d flunk. got one summer to make it up. get thrown out. You If you don’t make it up, you They were really, really tough on academics. JJ: Now, what year was this? Do you remember? RR: Nineteen sixty-three. JJ: You’re talking about 1963. RR: Sixty-three, ’67. JJ: Sixty-seven? RR: Yeah. JJ: And then the neighborhood is still changing, right? RR: Oh yeah. Yeah. Sixty-seven? At this point, it’s now going through more dramatic change. We’re having more Hispanics, more Blacks. A lot of the people that we knew five years, six years before have now moved out. It’s -- JJ: So all of the Italians and Irish and German -- RR: Yeah, a lot of them are gone, [01:12:00] yeah. JJ: -- are moving out. RR: Yeah. JJ: And how did you feel about that (inaudible)? Or were you saying -67 �RR: I’m a high schooler; I could care less. I’m growing up, I’m going through puberty. JJ: Okay. RR: A lot of the times, since we had -- since we were socializing, we’d have to go to Immaculata. Immaculata is up on Irving Park. neighborhood. Now, I mean, that’s a snooty Some, you know -- people let you know that you were -- yeah. And then if we want another one, we might go to Josephinum which was on Oakley and North Avenue roughly. JJ: So you’re socializing with the Catholic (inaudible). RR: Yeah, Catholic, yeah. Because that’s where the major -- you know, and -JJ: And [01:13:00] they got to divide it. This is all over men (sic), this is all under men so -RR: Yeah, right. But the barriers were starting to break down. A lot of the barriers that we, that I saw -- I dated a Black girl. It’s like, “You’re kidding.” “Yeah, why not?” JJ: Who was asking if you’re kidding, your friends? RR: Yeah, your friends. harassed. It was kind of like, “You did that? different?” “Oh.” But it wasn’t like you were being “No, they’re just more tan.” Are they It was like, And then that’s where I dated the Polish girl and I got chased out of the neighborhood. That’s who I’m 68 �thinking of the one girl who lived on Taylor Street where she said, “Do not pick me up.” (laughs) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Is this the (inaudible)? RR: Uh-uh, “We’ll meet you there.” JJ: Yeah. RR: So you date a girl and you can never go into her neighborhood because you’re Hispanic. And before, you couldn’t even go into the neighborhood. JJ: But you didn’t -- did you have any problem with that Black girl that you dated? RR: No, not at all. JJ: So you didn’t go in their neighborhood. RR: Well, she lived not too far from Josephinum. Yeah, yeah. [01:14:00] It wasn’t a big deal. RR: So no one gave you (inaudible) -- JJ: No. RR: -- when you dated a Polish? JJ: Polish girl, yeah. RR: Mexican dating Polish. RR: Oh yeah, it really was. So that was a problem. I -- my famous -- one of my famous -JJ: And she knew it. “Don’t pick me up here?” RR: Yeah, that was the Italian girl down on Taylor Street. Oh. She knew that you go down there, not a good place for 69 �Hispan- -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) races yet. RR: Yeah. I mean today, I sit and I teach these students and they’re -JJ: You’re teaching? Today you’re a teacher? Is that what you’re -RR: Today I’m teaching, a biology teacher. And I teach biology and chemis- -JJ: Mathematics is my worst subject. RR: Uh. JJ: (laughs) Just kidding. RR: But we -- the kids will bring up things like, “There’s all this tension.” kid.” My worst subject. I’m going, “You don’t know what tension is, I mean, you’re sitting next to a Black kid or [01:15:00] you know, but -- You would believe the story I tell is back in about 19- -- must’ve been about ’56 or so. Maybe it was even later -- ’60? My parents decided they were going to Mexico so we took, oh, Route 55 or 66 down and we wound up in Little Rock. And it was during the time they were having some racial issues so they had National Guard driving through. And I remember as a little kid going, “Oh, wow, look at all the trucks with the soldiers and they got guns.” And my dad had to get some gas and stuff at a gasoline station so I got out and I walked 70 �around because I had to go to the bathroom. And I looked at the -- and there’s a sign that says, “Entrance for Blacks.” It didn’t say Black; “Negroes.” Whites.” And I’m looking and [01:16:00] this white guy comes up. He goes, “Whatcha doin’, boy?” reading the signs.” “Yeah.” “Entrance for I said, “I’m He says, “Trying to decide?” I said, I said, “I’m not a Negro but I’m not a white.” And the guy looked at me and says, “You better decide soon,” and he went in. So I said, “Hell, I’m not going in there and I’m not going in there.” bushes. So I went in the (laughter) I mean, I don’t know what these -- my kids today would do if they were faced with that sort of thing. The stuff that you and I dealt with on an everyday basis to them would be absolutely horrific because they can date whoever they want. They will get static but not like we -- you don’t get chased out and have bottles (laughs) thrown at you because you’re in an Italian, Irish, German, or Black neighborhood. JJ: And -- You got chased out or we got chased out and bottles thrown at us? RR: Well, how many times when we walked over to Lincoln Park and we’d take [01:17:00] one of the side streets and didn’t take the main street? We had to literally run through certain neighborhoods because kids would start gathering. 71 �You knew that trouble was coming. You move. don’t know if you remember stuff like that. JJ: You remember it well. RR: Oh, God. I I do. (laughs) And so today, the kids -- I tell them, “You have no idea,” I says. JJ: Yeah. “Things are so more positive.” But then, we got -- or at least I got into the gang when I felt a little -- RR: But you know what was interesting about you getting into the gang? I saw that as an almost a social progression. Because what you’re seeing is you’re seeing the civil rights movement occurring and that was long overdue. But civil rights to me when Martin Luther King was speaking, he was not speaking as a Black man, he was a universal man. When he was talking about the universal rights of people and it doesn’t matter -- it was speaking to the same things you and I had been speaking about for years. That it doesn’t [01:18:00] matter whether you’re Puerto Rican, it doesn’t matter whether you’re Mexican, it doesn’t matter whether you’re Honduran. equal opportunities. It doesn’t -- you need to have And when you’re successful, you should have equal rewards and that wasn’t happening. So to me, I saw that as a momentous occasion as we were heading - and who were we learning from about social community action? Jeff Williams, Saul Alinsky, a Jew, a Black, W. 72 �Thurman, a community leader which is an old grandma who decided she was not going to have things. And we were -- do you remember the lady who was the social worker in our parish at Saint Teresa’s? I’m trying to think of her. can see her face; I can’t think of her name. facilitated when somebody needed something. I But she She facilitated through the parish things that should’ve been easily accessible for them. [01:19:00] So to me, it was -- here's this wonderful coming together of a lot of those things. JJ: So you said it was wonderful. So does that mean now, you don’t have to worry about walking around the neighborhood? RR: We’re at [Blackstone?], what was Fred Hampton? talking about, “We need more clinics. training facilities. He was We need more We need to channel this stuff.” This is the same stuff you were talking about early on that this is what we need. We need to get together as a people, we need to start creating these opportunities so that we can advance. The early stages of that were just absolutely fabulous, but I -JJ: But are you making the decision when we were a gang and it became more political or --? RR: Well to me, after you became a gang, you became political. You were political from the start. You were Puerto Ricans. 73 �JJ: What do you mean by that? RR: Hey, you couldn’t [01:20:00] have been a mixture because nobody was getting along. So you go with your common ethnicity and then you recognize that the ethnicity extends beyond. So you -- what did you guys form? The Rainbow Coalition, didn’t you? JJ: Later on, yeah. RR: Yeah. That was to me like, “Well, maybe this’ll work.” Because you’re looking at Blacks, you’re looking at poor white folk, and you’re looking at the people in between which is the Hispanics, the Brown folk. If we can get together, if we can change what’s going on because there were political issues. JJ: But I mean before that, way before that. I’m talking about when there was the Paragons and there was the Black Eagles and there was the Young Lords and -RR: But the nature of the gang was different. JJ: What do you mean? RR: Okay, so if you’re looking at the Paragons or Romo -- the Romo, they were there to protect their interests in their neighborhood and keep anybody who didn’t belong out. [01:21:00] At some point, that’s where everybody else started. The Blacks started the Patriots, the Young Patriots, and that’s where it all started. But as a civil 74 �rights awareness became, I think there was more -- so and the social background that you had already began to build up yourself began to create the opportunity that formed that coalition that would -- could never had formed if we hadn’t had the things that -JJ: Occurred before. RR: Yeah. JJ: So it was an extension. And I had -So from the gang to the political to the Rainbow Coalition. RR: Because if you’re looking at protecting your neighborhood, after a while, you’ve got to start worrying about, “Joe there doesn’t have any food. fed? How are we going to get him Well, let’s get him a job or let’s get him to do this or let’s get him,” you know. JJ: So that was unnatural. RR: It was unusual but [01:22:00] it was absolutely natural in terms of what had come before. And Fred Hampton was in the same position except that he was in a different neighborhood. (laughs) And I know very little about the Young Patriots except I know that they were on that Wilson area and that was vey transitional. I knew that there was a lot of poor white hillbilly folk out there and I know that they were having the same problems everybody else was having. 75 �JJ: But then we didn’t (inaudible). McCormick, (inaudible). All of a sudden, that’s in the newspaper and you say, “I know they’re celebrating there.” So how did you feel as a Latino at that time when the Young Lords (inaudible) with community presence? RR: Well, I’ll tell you what. “Yeah, finally.” It was like part of it was, And it was two things. One was the recognition of the community needs [01:23:00]. The second was validation of the role that your group was involved in. And finally, because of the eventual cooperation that McCormick actually did, I’m going, “Finally, somebody’s paying attention.” This is Father Headley 10 years down the line saying, “Okay, now we need to do something about this. We can’t just talk about it in the pulpit.” was -- in a way, it was like, “Wow. - I wonder where this is taking us.” this. Neat. So it Where is this - Unfortunately, it did And historically what -- JJ: Unfortunately what, later on (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, everything fell apart. Part of it should’ve been obvious to me at the time and it wasn’t. It was a political issue and it was a power issue. JJ: Okay. What do you mean a political issue, a power issue? RR: Daily [01:24:00] controls. How does he control the city through the neighborhoods? 76 �JJ: So you could see that we were fighting Daley and that, too? RR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: It was clear. RR: Oh, absolutely. In ’67, it was dead clear to me because by that time, I was already involved in the anti-war movement. JJ: Oh, you got involved in that, too? RR: Yeah. I really heavily because a number of the guys I graduated with were killed in Nam within a year after we graduated. And I’m going -- JJ: And did you go into the military? RR: No. Strangest story. Remember when they went to the lottery system? JJ: Right. RR: I got one- -- I think it was 119, 116 out of what, 225? So they’re going to call everybody up to, “Two twenty-five.” And I’m waiting because I’m registered because I’m going, right? So a couple months go by so I actually went down to -- and I said, “I want to be able to make plans. [01:25:00] I’m 119.” The lady looked at me and says, “You’re not being drafted.” I’m 119.” “What? They’re going to 225, She says, “We don’t need you.” said go back to school. Gave me an A-3, So I didn’t hesitate. Went right back to school. (laughs) We were worried about my brother for the same reason but he got a high number. But 77 �it was -- I saw kids that came back. wonder, “What a waste. And you begin to What a stinking waste.” In ’67 when the Democratic Convention came, I had a couple incidents happen to me that immediately told me that it didn’t make any sense. One of the local -- I think it was a Presbyterian church on Fullerton used to have sunrise services down by that museum. And that weekend -- JJ: Which museum? RR: The one on [01:26:00] Armitage and Clark. Yeah. I went down there and I felt out of place because most of them were older people, you know like we are now. it was just an old, standard crowd. (laughs) And Some kids and maybe about three, four of us that happened to be in there. And we’re sitting there and it’s the middle of services and suddenly, I hear this pop. And cannisters of CS flying over our heads right at us. And a bunch of idiots are coming in. Cops. It turned into a race and the four of us must’ve run that -- it’s about a mile from there to Sheffield, dodging through alleys, through ca- --[01:27:00] these guys were after us. And they were willing to take out all these other people that were innocent. going, “What did we do?” Well, we were young and we were anti-war and that’s all it took. Daley’s orders. And I’m And those were all And we knew it at that point. If I had 78 �any doubts, that convinced me. his Red Squad. Daley’s after us. He’s got He's going to be chasing us all over. And that happened several times to several other people and I just never expected it to happen and it did. “That’s it. And I said, Daley’s going to start -- he’s going to start attacking these people that are --” And sure enough, it -- over time, he used the sheriff’s department and he took and basically take out the leaders. They’ll fight among each other, the thing will collapse. And that’s basically what happened. JJ: So [01:28:00] you got into the anti-war and so you were talking about McCormick Seminary again. And you thought that that was a -RR: Oh, that I thought was a high point. It was extremely promising because what I saw is if you can get the ministry in, if you can get the archdiocese involved, and things will change. JJ: But in the community, how did that (inaudible)? RR: It was very promising but it split the community in half. It -- all right. So you have those people that a lot -- see what’s going on and they’re hoping for some change. And then you have the old timers. old timers. And I don’t want to say People who have been living there and they feel like they’re really invested. And they see that as a 79 �really dangerous thing. of thing. Church doesn’t belong in this sort What’s wrong with our community? [01:29:00] the rabblerousers out of here. That we need And if the Vietnam War wasn’t doing enough splitting, and it split almost inside the lines, pro-war, anti-war. JJ: So it was splitting? So this was a -- so the fact that the Young Lords (inaudible) doesn’t exist. They took over an apartment and it polarized the community more? RR: Oh yeah, it did. JJ: But it was good on blending old versus (inaudible)? RR: Yeah, that’s not the way to get things done. It was that sort of thing. It doesn’t “Well, we tried the old way. work.” JJ: So similar were people were for and they couldn’t oppose it. So they said that’s not the way to do it. RR: Mm-hmm. JJ: So they couldn’t oppose it because there were some -because we were fighting for housing -- RR: Mm-hmm, for affordable housing. JJ: -- for housing we couldn’t afford. It was that. And they said, “That’s not the -- that’s not the right way to do it [01:30:00] taking over a building.” RR: Right. What they were talking about was the old thing. You would go to your Ward committee man and you -- what are 80 �we going to trade for what we need? And that was the old way. JJ: So there was a discussion about that. RR: I’m sure there was. I’m not sure. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Okay. there wasn’t. If there wasn’t, But were you saying some people were saying why don’t you work through the community? RR: Yeah, work through the old system. JJ: But the community men were the ones that were evicting people like me (inaudible). RR: Yeah, sure. JJ: So I mean, but there were some discussion at the time. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Oh yeah, there was. And that occurred at church sometimes. Sometimes, we got -JJ: So, now we take over The Peoples Church. No, before that. Before that, there’s a march for Manuel Ramos. Did you hear about that or --? RR: I remember the name vaguely. JJ: Because that was at Saint Teresa’s, the funeral? RR: [01:31:00] Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, so that was -- RR: By that time, yeah -- JJ: What else do you remember about the Young Lords? 81 �RR: Well, for me, the one -- JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: -- they seemed to go more political as they started to come down. With you being in jail and Fred Hampton being killed, the Young Patriots pulled up -JJ: Was that being discussed? main group in or --? RR: Was that being discussed in the Or (inaudible)? At this point, I’m not living at home anymore. I’m actually living up on Belmont. JJ: Oh, you didn’t tell me that. RR: Yeah, so it’s -- I’m not hearing as much. hearing is I go home on Sundays. Most of what I’m And so by the time I hit ’67, ’60- -- I was out of the house by I would say September at the latest of ’67. JJ: Oh, so you weren’t living [01:32:00] in that (inaudible) and the Young Lords. RR: Even though I was going to school there, I wasn’t really -- JJ: So what did you hear about that? Did you hear anything (inaudible)? RR: Most of it through school. There was like a -- we’d occasionally meet at a place called [the Coffee House First Step?] and somebody would come in and they’d say, “Did you see this?” The Seed would carry something on that which was that paper out of -82 �JJ: The Seed? RR: -- yeah, out of Old Town. JJ: They distributed the Seed? RR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so the -- RR: The Seed and there was several -- JJ: -- I remember the Seed was for the people that smoked weed, too, and that. RR: Oh yeah. Yeah. JJ: So were you smoking weed at that time? RR: Oh, no. No. I was too busy trying to stay alive. was -- I never got into that. No, I I never got into that. A little bit of alcohol, yes. JJ: But no other drugs. RR: No, no. No, I never -- some of the guys did. we formed a group that was to help people. get -- you know, you’re in college. drunk [01:33:00] out of his mind. And in fact, Because we’d You’d get a kid who’s One of my buddies got -- his girlfriend left him so he decided to get drunk. got some pure alcohol so he got alcohol poisoning. But he So we decided we’d form a group so we could -- what do you do when somebody has alcohol poisoning, you know? like a research group for the college. Kind of So that they’d -- if they had problems, they’d come in and say, “Hey, I think 83 �this weed is laced.” I’d look at it and say, “Okay. First of all, it’s mostly seeds or it’s mostly stems,” I said. “But it’s got a powder on there. not mold or anything else. It’s been laced. That’s It’s -- that’s something else.” Sometimes, they laced it with PCP, sometimes, it was something else. that.” And you’d tell them, “You don’t want to do The funniest one I ever had was a guy came in and showed it to me and I said, “That’s not even weed.” said, “What do you mean?” lettuce.” it.” He I said, “No, it’s lettuce, dried He says, “You’re kidding. “No, that’s dried lettuce.” I paid so much for Yeah. So you know, kids [01:34:00] that are on bad trips, helping them down. JJ: So your mind is tame by that time. You’re not anti-war and all that. RR: Well, yeah. JJ: And why does it change? RR: In my head? JJ: Yeah RR: Oh, God. What’s going on in your head? I keep remembering Sister Anne and practicing putting our heads underneath it. The famous incident and I think it was Sister Anne’s room where it happened. doing the drill. sirens. We were The Tuesday drill when they’d run the We’d get underneath the tables, you’d put your heads (covers head with arms), and I started laughing for 84 �some reason or chuckling. And she came over and said, “What’s so funny about this?” JJ: They had that at school or --? RR: Yeah, yeah. And I said, “If those bombs go off, those -- this table is not going to protect (laughs) me from anything.” I said, “I’m going to be instant ash.” said, “What’s funny about that?” practicing?” And she I says, “Then why are we So in my own head [01:35:00] even by eighth grade, I realized that a nuclear attack was not something that was survivable in our neighborhood. just -- it’s sad. It was -- it’s That was really, really sad. But at that point, it was -- I didn’t see the rationa- -- I know why we went to war. And I know why sometimes you have to fight because the environment tells you that. But I wasn’t seeing why we were over there fighting these little guys. They’re not going to paddle across in a canoe and attack us. And I had read by the time I was freshman year in college, I had read the Battle of Dien Bien Phu so I was aware of what had happened and how we had gotten our -- And I’m going, “Why are we doing this? Why are we heading --” And what I saw it as a loss of potential. We were losing these bright young men that were coming back [01:36:00] maimed and dead. And what are we gaining out of this? was a little scary. It So as I go up, the idea of service, 85 �the idea of helping the community, the idea of what is the function of government? I mean, is it to serve or service the people or is it to maintain a structure where they can -- those are two different stories there. I’m going, “Well.” But in the end, If they can’t do for me, I’ve got to do something for myself. So I’m doing what I can to help kids who are on drugs because that seemed logical at the time. And I’m also looking at -- I learned about the 110 rule. And that basically if you’re a minority and you’re going to succeed, you got to do 110 percent what anybody else does. [01:37:00] And I was saying, “How was I going to do 110 percent?” JJ: So where’d you get this from? This (inaudible). RR: Oh, I don’t know where I got it from but -- JJ: Was it a school thing or --? RR: I think it was a part. I think part parents, part neighborhood, part a lot of things that we talked about. But as you go in and suddenly, there are things that change your life like you said. One of the things was that towards the end of my senior year in high school, I was dating this wonderful Polish girl and we talked about it. I said, “Listen, I’ve got four years of college and then we can talk about marriage.” She said it was a good idea. So by the time I was in -- the beginning of sophomore year, we 86 �were talking about two years down the line. And her parents actually took her and moved her out of Chicago down to southern Illinois. JJ: Why was that? RR: And her father [01:38:00] and I had this interesting conversation. I’m still an idiot then, okay? JJ: Okay. (laughs) RR: And she -- he says, “She can’t marry you.” I say, “Why?” “Well, Brown babies will have a horrible time in this world.” JJ: This is her father. RR: Her father talking to me. you talking about?” I said, “Brown babies? What are He said, “Well, if you’re going to get married, you’re going to have kids and you’re one of them.” And in my brain, I’m going, “What is he talking about one of them?” He says, “You’re one of them. those Brown people. And if you and my daughter marry, they’re going to have Brown children. succeed. You’re one of They’ll never They’ll have a horrible time in the world.” And I’m going -- and his mother comes out of the kitchen and starts cursing him out. JJ: She heard him say that. RR: Yeah. She says, “This is a good young man. her.” And that was the last conversation we ever had. He’s good for 87 �Basically what he says, “You’re not welcome here.” JJ: Basically, he kicked you out. RR: Yeah, he kicked you out. her name was [Kathy?]. [01:39:00] Yeah. time. So I said -- I said, “Hey, Kathy. to go to college next year. And -- You’re going So go to college, get a little If you need to leave your parents, you got me. can do it together.” Didn’t work. We So at that point in time, I realized that -JJ: How old were you then? RR: Oh gosh, how old was I? JJ: About 20 years old. RR: Twenty years old. JJ: There’s a lot of changes at that age. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Life changes. RR: So I -- one of the things was -- JJ: So that affected you strongly. RR: Oh, yeah. Sixty-eight -- about 20 years old. Roughly 20, 21. I’m going -- “I’m going to show you, you son of a bitch.” (laughter) I said, “I’m going to get my degree, and I’m going to do everything that I can be successful, and the hell with you. The world has got to change.” The world was changing and I didn’t even know [01:40:00] it. I mean, I was fighting my own personal battles and the world had already started to change. I mean, Robert F. Kennedy’s 88 �death and Martin Luther King’s death and Fred Hampton’s death. All the people that were dying were changing. Because people were asking why -JJ: You were familiar with Fred Hampton’s death. RR: Oh yeah. JJ: Were you familiar with Reverand Bruce Johnson or Oh yeah. (inaudible)? RR: No. JJ: In the church? RR: No. JJ: They got killed -- RR: No. JJ: -- in the Peoples Church? RR: No. JJ: They were stabbed. RR: No, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know. Did you know? Yeah. See, again, at this point, I’m separating and I’m going -JJ: You’re not in the neighborhood, you’re not (inaudible). RR: I’m not in the neighborhood at all and I’m also -- JJ: How are you familiar with Fred Hampton’s death? RR: It was first made the news. JJ: Well, that one had the trial. RR: Yeah, but even so, the early reports -- and again, [01:41:00] this is the intellectual side of me. I start 89 �reading reports, looking at photographs that they’re showing going, “Uh, that doesn’t jive. all.” It doesn’t jive at And then a lot of the underground newspapers carry information. JJ: Were you reading the Seed? RR: Yeah, well, the Seed was -- there were several other papers, yeah. JJ: But you said you were reading them because you were in the anti-war movement, right? RR: Yeah. And I’m reading about Fred’s death and I’m going, “Holy mackerel. JJ: I didn’t know. This was just basically an assassination.” I was looking for -- I was trying to recruit different people. anti-war movement. RR: Yeah. I didn’t know you were in the It’s like we had been working together. It might’ve been a different world. But at that point, after sophomore year, with the death of Robert F. Kennedy, because I had some hopes politically for this man. JJ: Well, Kennedy was definitely respected by a lot of Latinos. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Everybody had little posters. RR: He [01:42:00] seemed to have the energy and the promise I thought he had -- that his brother didn’t have. JJ: Did you ever (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RR: No. My parents may have; I didn’t. 90 �JJ: No. RR: But when he was gone, I started looking around going, “They’re going to kill everybody who wants this change to come about.” And I said, “Oh, that’s it. problem and that’s to make it.” I got one And I’d already been told that I can’t make it because I’m a Hispanic, I’ve been -I’d watched good people -- I saw you go to jail for the lumber incident. JJ: Oh, so you mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Oh yeah. JJ: You didn’t know about the good part, only the -- RR: Well, most of that was passed on because again, you have I -- you didn’t stay out of -- the -JJ: I know but what did you -- what did you -- what was your impression? RR: My impression was there was some lumber that was going to be used for something and it was something minor. It was [01:43:00] like -JJ: It was going to be used for something political or --? RR: Political it was -- I didn’t know what it was. JJ: But it was something to do with the church. RR: Yeah, it -- JJ: Actually, it was for the day cares. RR: So and then they were going to arrest you and throw you in But anyway, so you -- 91 �jail for 20 years for what? Less than a hundred dollars worth of lumber? JJ: So that’s the way the conversation went? RR: Yeah. The conversation came through and again, my mother picks it up because she talks to this other Hispanic lady who talked to this Hispanic lady. JJ: So it was through the grapevine. RR: We got most of that through the grape- -- JJ: Made the way on the grapevine. And then they’ll put him in jail and (inaudible) -RR: Yeah, they threw him in jail and this time, they’re going to throw away the key. geez. They’re going to try him and, “Oh, How’s he going to --” And at this point, I would say -JJ: And how did your mother -- your mother because she knew me? RR: Yeah. She was like, “This is terrible.” She saw a lot of -JJ: She did sound like a mother. She sounded like -- RR: Oh, like a ma, yeah. JJ: That that could be my son. RR: Yeah, it could be. JJ: So she acted -- put that in a positive way. I mean, she was supportive. RR: [01:44:00] Oh, yeah. Absolutely. She was hoping that both 92 �of us would be priests. (laughs) And if not, social workers, you know? JJ: She saw me as a victim. RR: In many ways a victim. JJ: Not an aggressor. RR: No, she never saw you as an aggressor ever. JJ: She never? RR: No, no. She never saw you as an aggressor. She felt that you had picked up some back habits along the way. You were drinking too much or something else and -JJ: May I ask you is it just the wine he drinks sometimes? RR: Oh. So and that’s probably -- and but this other stuff. “The lumber,” she says, “But that’s unjust.” JJ: (inaudible) it was too much drinking. RR: Yeah. It was too much -- yeah. Because -- So it was just -- yeah. So it was -JJ: But we were also trying to prove that -- because this was only a couple 2x4s and piece of plywood. giving us the maximum which is a year. us more than a year. And they’re They couldn’t give But they actually -- they were trying to give us more than a year. RR: Yeah, they were trying to give you a whole lot more. JJ: [01:45:00] They were trying to give us like five years. They were trying to say that it was a burglary. And we 93 �said, “No, it was outside.” In other words, there was no - RR: There was no entry into a residence. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) building entrance. we actually had to try that case and we won that case. So lost because I pleaded guilty. and everything. We And then I even (inaudible) I felt guilty at the time. RR: I’ll tell ya -- JJ: But we thought at first, it was a liberating move. thought we were revolutionaries. We We were looking at them bringing wood but when we thought about it analyzed, we said, “No, we didn’t have to do that. We could ask for donations.” RR: But again, the whole point was that -- JJ: But she was a supporter. RR: Oh yeah. JJ: The whole point was what? RR: The whole point was this: that we recognized that change Your mom was a supporter. was needed and no one was doing anything about the change. And then that was [01:46:00] -- at that point -JJ: So you recognize the change was needed and the Young Lords were doing change? RR: The Young Lords were doing change, Fred Hampton was doing change, that whole thing was promising. 94 �JJ: So you were sensing -- RR: Oh yeah. And even though I was distant from it, it was like, “Do I leave what I’m doing now and jump in? I fit in?” Where do And I didn’t see fitting in so I saw my battle was going to be at the academic level. JJ: Right so I’m thinking that I’m making change and I don’t realize when other people around me are not changing, too. But you were changing, too. And we were -- RR: Oh, we were all changing. JJ: The whole community was changing. RR: It did. JJ: Because what you’re saying -- I’m not putting words in your mouth. RR: Yeah, the community -- no, no. The outcome. Even though physically, it looked like failure, it changed how people saw things, it changed how people thought about things. It changed -JJ: What changed? What do you mean, what, the actions I was [01:47:00] taking? RR: You going to jail, Fred Hampton being killed. things. All those You discovered -- JJ: Okay. So that was the nature of the change. RR: All those things. The discovery of the Red Squad, the discovery that, in fact, the Red Squad did exist and that 95 �they did tap phones illegally. Those things slowly but surely began to make people think about what was going on. It didn’t change things magically. The things that were going to change it were -- I -- again, this is my point of view. I’m in college. I’m with Black kids who were struggling just as I am and they’re looking at this and I’m -- we suddenly discover both of us the 110 rule. Okay, so we’re going to be the best chemists, biologists, doctors, lawyers that’s possible. And we’re going to show them that a Black man can do just as much of a job or Hispanic can do as much of a job. I wanted to show that Polish guy the way I’m going to be one of the best whatever it is I chose to be and you missed out. missed out on this. point. (laughs) [01:48:00] Your daughter A very heavy driving force at that Also realizing I was going to be one of the first people to get a degree in my family ever. So at that point right about there, ’68, ’69, I split completely from the politics and just went full-hedge into being really good at being a biologist. JJ: Okay, so now you’re ’68, ’69 was a turning point in your life and you said, “Let me go this way. Let me go to the school and be the best biologist ever.” RR: Yeah. So here in real quick succession, I get out of college, I get my degree. I get a chance to get a 96 �master’s. I pick up on my master’s. During the course of finishing my master’s, I run into a guy by the name of Howard Bern from the University of California at Berkeley. [01:49:00] He thinks I’m really good. actually pays my way out there. interview. I invite -- he I go visit, I have an There’s a guy by the name of Talamantes. got a -- a PhD candidate. He’s He invites me to start my PhD. I finish my work in the spring of ’74, I don’t get my degree until ’75, and then I start -- I go back out. am I going to do?” I’m done so I need to get away. “What I do summer camp for kids from the inner city through Catholic Charities. And I’m looking at kids like you and me except 20 years later. And I’m going, “What am I going to do?” And I talked to Howard and he says, “Yeah, you got two years. You decide. Take two years off and come on by.” Well, somewhere in that span of time, I [01:50:00] needed a job so they sent me to Pilsen. And here I am again. Here’s these -JJ: That’s in the heart of the Mexican community. RR: Yeah, yeah, just outside. JJ: Yeah. RR: I got a Puerto Rican boss. Yeah. And you’re saying you’re there and -And he is telling me how you need to teach, courses I need to take, bla bla bla bla. And suddenly, you hit that stride and go, “I’m in the right 97 �place.” I’m going, “I don’t belong in academia. here working with these kids.” 1985. I belong So from ’74, I came back in Pilsen. In 1985, I started teaching, went right back to And I taught from ’85 to ’93 or ’94 in Pilsen. JJ: You were there 10 years? RR: Yeah, I spent 10 years in there. JJ: And you were teaching what? RR: Teaching any science. JJ: Any science. RR: Yeah. And you were teaching science. So I was teaching [01:51:00] everything. you can do it. can do it. And mostly Forget about whether you’re Mexican; You The whole message that I’d grown up with which is, “You’re here. Use the opportunity. you’re not designed to be baby machines. (inaudible).” Don’t -- ladies, You can be So I got involved with DePaul again doing school on Saturdays at college level for kids in Pilsen. And in ’94, I had my -- in ’90, I had my kid and suddenly realized I had to be a father. JJ: So how many children did you have? RR: One. JJ: You had one? RR: Yeah, I was only given one. JJ: How old is he? RR: He’s 22 now. 98 �JJ: He’s 22. RR: He’s 22. In fact, this year, he’s [01:52:00] a senior in college. So at this point, it’s like, “Wow.” JJ: A senior in college. myself right now. RR: (laughs) I should be ashamed of (laughs) Well, I’m retiring in four years and guess what the plan is? I’m going back to college. JJ: Oh, really? RR: Yeah, there’s a couple things that I need to learn before I go much further. But basically, the reason I got back into it is it played back into my social awareness. Now, I can’t change these kids but I can offer them the opportunity to change, to see a different world. and I got to see it later on. That you But they -- yeah, you’re dirt poor, you don’t have anything, and you think you’re dumb. Number one, you’re not dumb. opportunity. Two, you’ve got the It’s not money, it means take whatever chance comes your way and utilize it to get out of -- because you can’t stay where you’re at. Education is your salvation. JJ: [01:53:00] And you, besides teaching, you had other -- RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: I think that’s important that -- RR: All right. (laughs) So this wonderful program that they had in Pilsen works so well that they cancelled it after one year. 99 �So I went and taught in Catholic schools for two years. After two years in Catholic schools, I got an invitation to do education out of doors through Catholic Charities. So I spent the next -- so it’d be ’76 -- the next four years, three years doing outdoor education with -- yeah. So I was up in -JJ: In camp or --? RR: -- in camps, yeah. So I did Henry Horner occasionally. Very rarely, but which is a Boy Scout camp. Catholic Charities had Saint Francis in Libertyville. Villa Marie out in Pistakee Bay [01:54:00] and Holy Family in Saint Joe. So when schools needed someone to teach kids about the out of doors, they would call me -- I was kind of an administrator of the camp -- so and I would go out there. “We’re going to spend a day in the woods. walk through the woods. Here’s how you you do, get in the dirt.” This is what you eat, this is what A lot of these kids were suburban kids but during summers, I would do inner-city kids. And I just love that. That was a lot of fun, lousy pay, and job security was horrible. So that when the funding was eventually cut and this was about 1979, I hadn’t -- didn’t have a job. a biologist.” So I went back to, “Well, I’m I can’t go back to Bern because the offer has long since dried up. So I applied to Illinois State to 100 �work in a forensic lab because I had all the qualifications. [01:55:00] And they said, “You have all the qualifications but you have no law enforcement experience.” So I joined up with the police force so I was a policeman for one year. That was one of the strangest things that ever happened to me. JJ: So you went to the law sort of -- so a police academy or -? RR: Yeah, I went to police training academy. I was number one, number two in my class. JJ: Okay. RR: So it’s -- it doesn’t take a -- JJ: So a pretty good working person or --? RR: Very good. JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) RR: Oh yeah. JJ: Did you get a (inaudible) for a car? RR: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I don’t know where I got that skill. (laughs) But anyway. So I served one year there and it was -JJ: Now, were you working out of the precinct or --? RR: I was working out of a small town, 10,000 people. JJ: Okay, 10,000 people. RR: It’s sort of like Mayberry, I guess. But it was a good 101 �learning experience. [01:56:00] A lot of stuff I had to relearn. JJ: So you were a regular police officer in a small town. RR: Right. And then I was also an acting detective so I did -- I made robberies and investigations and I guess internal investigations is required. And right at -- right about January of the year after I started, I got a call from the state that says, “We heard,” somebody put me in but anyway, basically what happens. would you like a job?” “We heard you got experience. How And it paid real well so I worked there for four and a half years, five years. I got sick. JJ: This was another place. RR: Yeah, this was the Illinois State Police so I worked for scientific services. And I -- JJ: What was that? What type of work was that? RR: It’s basically, you sit in a lab, you analyze rape kits. Because I hadn’t -- JJ: What? RR: Rape kits, mostly. JJ: [01:57:00] Rape kits. RR: Yeah. Rape kits so you get the little kit. It’s got blood samples in it and then you check to see if it’s got sperm and this and that blood types. all that sort of stuff. And I did hair analysis and But I was -102 �JJ: Now, hair analysis, was that for (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Comparison hairs. No. It’s like -- JJ: It’s related to the rape cases? RR: Yeah, right, or criminal cases. JJ: Criminal cases. RR: So somebody would break into a store and steal something and they left a drop of blood and some hair. got a suspect. So now they Does the hair match the suspect, blood match? JJ: Okay. So you did that four or five years? RR: Yeah, yeah. I wound up doing a lot of crime scenes because having been a cop and having been an evidence tech, I knew how to do that and I got -- but I started out in -- here in Joliet. So I trained for a year and then there, they sent me to Springfield, Illinois. So I was in Springfield [01:58:00] for a number of years. put me in Maywood crime lab. And I came back and they So at that point, I had an operation that put me on medication stuff and knocked me out. So basically, I had to retire and it took me about six months, nine months to recover. And them at point, I said, “Well, I got to go back to what I was doing. to get back to that teaching.” JJ: I got And right. Okay, now, you were at one point, you were supporting the 103 �Young Lords and the Black Panthers and they don’t see police favorably (inaudible). an activist? But how could you stop being Because you were anti-war activist and then at the same time, you were supportive of the Young Lords and the Black Panthers and that. So how did you -- RR: How did I wind up as a cop? JJ: Right, how did you put that in your head, justify [01:59:00] that in your -- RR: Oh, I don’t know. JJ: Did you even think about it or --? RR: Oh, I never thought about it. When you -- as a cop -- JJ: Because a lot of times, that work in the service and cops - RR: Yeah, because what you do is get out there. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: It’s a community service thing. your head in. That’s not my job. I’m not out there to beat My job is if you got a problem -- I don’t know how many drunks I drove home. JJ: Okay. So you looked at it as community service. RR: Oh yeah. Sent couples in marriage counseling. I mean, you know -JJ: Then you’ve been to college so that people understand it’s -- part of it is it’s a job. RR: It’s a job. My life doesn’t depend on it. So the only 104 �time I’m going to be concerned -JJ: I worry about it because I don’t know who’s going -- I’m worried about it now. RR: Yeah, you pull a gun on me, that’s a different story. JJ: Oh, okay. RR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: Because I’m a great shooter. RR: Hey, only one thought is I want to go home tonight. JJ: I would never do that. If I pulled a gun on you, I’m in trouble. (laughs) I would never do that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -RR: [02:00:00] Oh no, it’s a -- When I was teaching, I had a young man who brought a 22 to school. But it was a starter pistol. A counselor called him down and the counselor saw the gun. Called the parent, the parent came in, took the gun from the kid, gave it to this person. comes up and he calls me down. This person She’s knows I’m an ex-cop. She takes the gun and she -- you’re sitting here. She goes like this (extends arm forward) -- she’s got her finger on the trigger and she’s pointing the damn thing at me. looked at it and it was all reflex. hand. I I just about broke her And she goes, “What the hell was that?” I’m saying, “Never, ever -- I don’t care who you are -- point a gun at anybody and particularly, not me,” you know? away.” “Put it And then when I opened it up, I said, “This is a 105 �starter pistol. surprised. It doesn’t (laughs) even --” And she was [02:01:00] But it -- yeah, now it’s -- that’s - - I mean, how many times did you get shot at, José? I mean, think about it. JJ: A few times. RR: Yeah, I got shot at a couple of times. you get real jumpy. You just kind of -- And then when you get trained in what to do, it’s -- but I lost a lot of friends. I mean, there were people that I had been communicating with for years and suddenly, it’s like I write them or I call them and it’s like, “We’re not available. parties.” No, we’re not having any I said, “Look, like what’s going on here?” And then I was back doing biology which was kind of fun. JJ: So you had the (inaudible). RR: It was. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: One of my best friends Lewandowski was blown away. could you ever become a cop? did all these things.” “How You went through all -- you I said, “I’m not one of those idiots that’s tossing hand -- gas grenades at you and I don’t want to beat your head in. wearing.” I don’t care what you’re I learned that. [02:02:00] That’s what I’m carrying with me so that’s what makes me good at what I do because I have that experience. I’m not going to make the 106 �same mistakes they made. So that was pretty tough; I took that pretty personally. JJ: I like that you said you could see it as a service. Because I mean in socialized countries or communist countries or whatever, they have no police force. have no police. They (inaudible) -- RR: But they’re used as enforcers, aren’t they? JJ: But some of those countries, yeah, (inaudible). RR: So anyway, in the end, I wound up teaching. JJ: They just got to explain because it’s so strange that program. (laughs) Yeah. (laughs) RR: Man, it was -- JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, we wound up in the same place, though, didn’t we? And I think one of the things that’s interesting more than anything else is what a roundabout way. because I’m ending my career now. going to do? See, [02:03:00] And it’s like what am I Well, I don’t know but one of the things is I’d like to work with some people. And then I may wind up just volunteering here and working with some of the kids that need the help. JJ: Yeah, it’s kind of hard to retire. RR: It took me a long time to get used to white-bread America. When I came here, there was probably less than 10 percent 107 �Hispanic and probably less than 15 percent Black. And these were -JJ: And you said you’re here in Joliet. RR: Yeah, in Joliet here in Illinois, yeah. JJ: In Joliet in a high school. RR: In a high school on the west side which is the better side of town. And now, we’re more integrated. one third, one third, one third. It’s more like And what I used to think was that I’m trying to save the Hispanics; I’m trying to give them that opportunity. don’t have to do that. And in here, [02:04:00] I It’s really everyone because you got poor white folk, you got poor Hispanics, and you got poor Blacks. JJ: And the message stays exactly the same. So this was -- used to be like a suburb. But now it’s -- the suburbs are filling up with minorities. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: So far with minorities. There’s that change. In the cities of Chicago, it’s the opposite. RR: Now, you’re starting to have white coming back in. JJ: Right. Yeah. So that they’re running the game thing either way (laughs) from the perspective of the game, right? RR: Well, except that we -- JJ: We moved and went in town, now they’re moving to us. (inaudible) -108 �RR: But we changed the world. JJ: We changed the world. RR: We did. JJ: We’re in the process. RR: Take a look at these kids. Hispanic. They can date Black, White, They don’t run into the problems that we did. They’re now talking about Obamacare as an important issue and life. And we’re still dealing with a lot of the [02:05:00] issues about civil rights. But now, we’re talking about civil rights for everybody. talking about for Blacks. We’re not just I mean Joe, damn. Forty years have changed and we were part of that. You actually had a bigger part than I did but it’s nice. I don’t want to say, “Hey, it’s great. We did it!” No. We’re nowhere near where I’d like to be but it’s a hell of a long walk from where we were. JJ: And you feel that we contributed to it? RR: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don’t -- I mean, think about just the ideas that you put out when the Rainbow Coalition occurred. I always hated the fact that Jesse Jackson stole -JJ: [02:06:00] Stole the leader. RR: Oh yeah, stole the leader. JJ: I think it’s (inaudible) -- Because I tell -- 109 �RR: Oh, it’s cool. But I mean, I’m saying -- JJ: But I don’t think it was the same concept -- RR: No, I don’t think it -- JJ: -- because we actually -- I think he’s trying to go to the Rainbow Coalition but I don’t think he’s been able to get-- RR: He hasn’t gotten the Hispanics in there. JJ: -- the Hispanics in there (inaudible). RR: He hasn’t gotten the poor whites. JJ: But we actually have that. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: We had a real rainbow coalition. RR: Oh, you did and it was amazing. possible. You did. And the fact that it is The fact that it existed for a while and then went away changed the world. JJ: Yeah. But it was a symbol. really an organization. It was symbolic. It wasn’t It was an alliance of people that were already organized into organizations. And that’s [02:07:00] what was good about it. RR: Yeah, and would we be here today if all those things hadn’t happened? you. I don’t think so and I don’t think it’s just I think it’s all of us contributed a piece. I think -JJ: The whole era (inaudible). RR: Oh yeah. Because if I had gone back to Howard and become a 110 �great biologist, would I have impacted on as many kids? One of these -- last year, I had a wonderful young lady who’s been a real hard worker. many kids have you taught?” about that.” And the question was, “How And I said, “Let me think And it comes out to several thousand. If it’s several thousand, let’s say it’s 5,000, and I only influence one percent, that’s 50 kids. JJ: Right. That’s a lot. RR: It’s a lot. It’s a whole lot. [02:08:00] And that’s one thing that I don’t know how many -- I don’t know how many half-dozen, ten teachers I trained to become teachers. What did I teach them? The first important thing is listen to your students. Where did it come from? to bring them up? It’s not -- you’re either a natural teacher or you’re not. What can you do You were a natural teacher. It took me years to get and learn some of the things that you had. Which was the charisma, the facility with people. I’ve never been terribly people-oriented. JJ: You learn it from the intellectuals. RR: That’s why we made such a great team early on and I think we recognized that. roads to travel. But it was just -- we had different My wife -- I love what she says. on this road for a reason. JJ: (laughs) “You’re You may never know what it is.” What’s your wife’s name? 111 �RR: [Mary Beth?]. JJ: Mary Beth. RR: Good Polish-Italian girl. JJ: Oh, is she? RR: Yeah. JJ: [02:09:00] So you married the neighborhood. RR: Well, yeah. JJ: Congratulations. RR: Yeah. JJ: How many years have you been married? RR: Thirty-one, 32. (laughs) Yeah. Congratulations. oldest. I’m surprised we’re still married because I’m -- Yeah, yeah. John Glaw and I are the John got married when he was 20 -- 20 years old. And he is one year younger than me, so he is 63. So he’s been married 43 years. JJ: Hmm. RR: So it’s -- it’s amazing. JJ: Do you see some of the people from your neighborhood sometimes or --? RR: Very rarely now because a lot of them -- do you remember a girl by the name of [Baldassano, Carolyn?]? JJ: Yeah, I remember her. RR: She just passed away two weeks ago. JJ: Oh. RR: Yeah. Carolyn had a massive heart attack and died and I 112 �hadn’t seen her for a long time -JJ: Does she live in Chicago? RR: She’s out somewhere in the ‘burbs. JJ: In the ‘burbs? RR: Yeah. [02:10:00] There was a girl by the name of [Nancy Roseman?]. Do you remember Nancy? Lived right across the street from school. JJ: I think so. RR: Skinny little thing. (raises hand) Yeah. She and I had been buddies for years and she told me about Carolyn. And she said, “Oh, you got -- you and Carolyn,” because we were in the same class. JJ: She lives in the suburbs, too, now? RR: Yeah, she was -- she moved out there 20 -- JJ: Now, these are people that were later on. You weren’t dating in DePaul because that was a -RR: No, these are all neighborhood people. JJ: You still kept (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, occasionally through my sister, [Rosie?]. JJ: Oh. RR: Because she still lives there. JJ: She still lives in Lincoln Park? RR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, now, is Rosie the one that’s married to -- She’s on -- what street is that? Seminary. 113 �RR: [Lechaise?]. JJ: Lechaise? RR: Yeah, Lechaise. JJ: Lechaise. RR: Yeah, (inaudible) drug store. JJ: Lechaise. Yeah. And it’s such a crazy (inaudible) interview (inaudible). RR: Oh, God. Good [02:11:00] luck. JJ: (laughs) Good luck. RR: Yeah. JJ: Well, at least -- RR: There’s old -- there’s lots of history. JJ: She can probably give me some -- RR: Oh, yeah. Rosie or [Doug?]? She can probably give you -- she stayed into a lot of -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I should interview her more to meet her husband -- RR: Yeah. And then -- what? JJ: But anyways, (inaudible). RR: Yeah, I understand. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, so yeah. It doesn’t matter. This is -- Yeah. There’s a lot of -- they can give you a lot more pre-history because they lived there forever. JJ: Right, because they were there -- but I mean, you’re giving 114 �me the same history that I’m trying to find out the people that were there before the Latinos moved in. And then I have to do some of the (inaudible) to just -- to tell us what -- how the community changed as a result of (inaudible). RR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. RR: Thought? JJ: What do you think -- what do you think -- what was really So what -- any final -- important things about Lincoln Park that we need to tell [02:12:00] your students and other students for the future? That they should know of? RR: I mean lessons, I mean lessons. In the end, I think one of the lessons that we could’ve learned -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: -- and it was that we could’ve had a very diverse community with a lot of contributing people because there was a lot of intelligent, smart, energetic people. were really successful. A lot of them Not in terms of money, necessarily, but in terms of being people and influencing. I don’t think I would have grown up -- if I ever grew up -to be where I’m at if I hadn’t had the opportunity [02:13:00] of growing up in there. important. I think that was really So in terms of a grand statement, it was a good 115 �place to grow up, but not necessarily for the reasons most people would think. It made us deal with stuff that normal people wouldn’t consider normal. But it also made us look at our world in a different way. I mean, you got McCormick Theological Seminary there, you got a university, you’ve got poor folks of the poorest kind, of all kinds there, you got transitionals. the Chinese say? It was an interesting time. “May you grow up in (inaudible)?” Underneath, it says, “This is a curse.” JJ: Oh. RR: Yeah. What do (laughs) (laughs) So I think we grew up in interesting times and it made us who we are. I’d love to see the world change for the better, though. (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 116 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8d1c07d1a01a3ab3b2325ff3994172e.mp4 ee51f0b36d0810da819fcded3f4bba81 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ricardo Rebollar vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Ricardo Rebollar es hijo de una de las primeras familias Mexicanas que vivieron en Lincoln Park, en las calles de Sheffield y Clybourn, por más que 30 años. Después que José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez se encontró en problemas en Newberry Elemntary School, su mama lo saco de la escuela y lo inscribió en escuela Católica de St. Teresa. Señor Rebollar era uno de los pocos latinos en la escuela y porque estaban en la misma clase se hicieron mejores amigos. Se pasaban los días hablando antes y después de la escuela y querían ir al seminario y luego ordenarse sacerdote porque sentían que era la única forma que podían ayudar su gente. Señor Rebollar recuerda que juagaron juntos en equipos de softbol y otros deportes. También recuerda que los padres de su novia tuvieron más tiempo en aceptarlo por su origen nacional. Y como en esos días podía caminar por las calles de Lincoln Park sin temor porque los Young Lords sabían que era amigo de Jiménez. Señor Rebollar atendió McCormick Theoligal Seminary’s Occupation y la escuela de St. Vincet DePaul High School en donde Afro-Americanos (quien eran apoyados por Young Lords) tomaron la escuela. Señor Rebollar y Señor Jiménez no llegaron a ordenarse. Rebollar primero fue un policía y dice que “era un tirador experto.” Ahora es un maestro en la escuela de Joliet West High en Illinois. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexicano-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Jiménez, José, 1948- Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rebollar_Ricardo Title A name given to the resource Ricardo Rebollar video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebollar, Ricardo Description An account of the resource Ricardo Rebollar is from one of the first Mexican families to live in Lincoln Park, settling around Sheffield and Clybourn Streets and remaining there more than 30 years. Mr. Rebollar attended school with Young Lords founder José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Mr. Rebollar was of the few Latinos in the school and in his class and they became very close friends. He recalls the days that Lincoln Park turned more Puerto Rican and Latino and describes how he felt safe when he walked the area of Lincoln Park because the Young Lords. Mr. Rebollar first became a law enforcement officer and later became a teacher for the Chicago school system. He currently teaches science at Joliet West High School in Illinois. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f50040ecefb27b5b109649d41e376c63.pdf 80e1269946931ef0a53292c32e2f9a99 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ricci Trinidad Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/17/2012 Biography and Description Ricci Trinidad grew up in Lincoln Park. He describes his memories of the neighborhood, including the work of his parents, Pablo Trinidad Resto and Cristina “Nine” Jiménez. Doña Nine, as Mr. Trinidad’s mother was called, was a businesswoman. Early on as a new immigrant in the early 1950s she opened a restaurant, financing it with only her own funds in the La Clark neighborhood at Wells and Superior Streets. She began by cooking for the new immigrant men who were working to bring their families from Puerto Rico to Chicago in her converted, connecting room apartment at the Water Hotel. The restaurant was creative and domino leagues were organized to serve the patrons and to increase the restaurant’s bottom line. Lotería, or Spanish bingo games, that were sponsored by several families within the La Clark barrio, soon sprang up as well. Mr. Trinidad attended Immaculate Conception and became president of a primarily white neighborhood social club on North Park Avenue, called the “Rebels.” He served honorably in the U.S. Army and retired as a worker in good standing from the Commonwealth Edison plant. In his early years, he, William, and José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez – who were cousins and close friends -- rode bicycles and skateboards down the cobbled streets of Superior, downtown, and through the Oak Street and North Avenue beaches. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: We’re just talking like we would at dinner, kind of talk like that. Can you give me your name, and your date of birth, and where you were born? RICCI TRINIDAD: My name’s Ricci Trinidad. I was born in barrio San Salvador, Caguas in 1949. JJ: So when you say you were born in barrio San Salvador, in the house or in the hospital? RT: I have no idea. (laughter) More than likely, the house. JJ: More than likely the house? RT: Yeah. JJ: So how long did you live here before you -- RT: While I was there, I remember going to -- it was like almost like a day school, where they would send you there and they’d teach you catechism and all that. JJ: Here in Puerto Rico? RT: Yeah, in Puerto Rico. And they fed you, I remember it was [00:01:00] [a Reina?] arroz con leche, you know something very simple. And it was more or less something for us to do, also. But I don’t quite remember how old I was when we left for Chicago. JJ: I mean was it more than four years old? RT: I would say something like four or five, something like that. JJ: So you probably got to Chicago in about 1955 -- 1954, ’53, something like that. RT: Right. I remember going to, I believe it was -- we lived at 1023 North La Salle. JJ: You didn’t live at the Water Hotel? 1 �RT: No. JJ: And you went right to 1023 North La Salle? RT: We were at 1023 North La Salle, and also in that other house we had. Willy’s mom, Marta, she used to live up on the second floor. JJ: And this was at 1023? RT: This was at 1023 North La Salle. JJ: [00:02:00] I think your mom was the manager. Was she the manager? RT: That’s what I was about to come in and say. (laughter) The guy that owned the building was Mr. [Soda?], and I believe that they offered her the first-floor apartment which was a pretty big apartment, all the way to the back, and then gave her a discount on the apartment, and all she had to do was just kind of interview people or try and get people to keep the apartment filled. And so I remember Marta and Andre living there. JJ: Andre was Willy’s father? RT: Yeah, Willy’s father. That’s my uncle. And I think at that time, your mom used to live on Maple. JJ: Right on the corner. RT: Right, right on the corner there. JJ: [00:03:00] 1039 Maple. RT: Right. And across the street, I think Carmen Lopez -- JJ: Oh, no, it was 1023 La Salle (inaudible), 1029 La Salle (inaudible). RT: You guys did. JJ: Yeah. You said Carmen Lopez? 2 �RT: And then Carmen Lopez, I believe, was -- across the street, there were some apartments there, and she lived there. I remember that she did because they had this -- every week they’d get together and they’d play loteria. (laughter) And during the game you put a little funds aside for the owner of the house and all this. And so -- JJ: Was loteria a legal game at that time? RT: At that time, I don’t think any type of gambling was legal. (laughter) JJ: So everybody (inaudible). But everybody liked to do that. RT: Right. So Carmen used to have the same thing, and I guess they -- JJ: So Carmen had the same thing, [00:04:00] and who else had it? RT: Carmen always used to have games at her house. JJ: Were you talking about your mom had it or Carmen had it? RT: Yeah. So I remember at one time the police got stormed in -- JJ: Stormed in by breaking your door? RT: -- and they took everybody that was in there over to Superior, I believe it was -Chicago Avenue. Chicago Avenue had a district, a police district. JJ: Yeah, Chicago Avenue police district. RT: Yeah. And I remember after they took ’em, I had a bike, my bike there, and I pedaled all the way out there because they wouldn’t take me with them (laughter) to find out if she’s coming back, what’s happening, or whatever. JJ: This is Nine? RT: This is Nine, this my mom. And so eventually I guess they -- JJ: But they took everybody else? 3 �RT: They took everybody in there, probably to cite ’em or -- JJ: [00:05:00] Who were other people? Do you know? RT: No, they got different -- they are friends of the family that were there and stuff like that. JJ: They just basically raided the lottery game? RT: Yeah, they did. Somebody -- JJ: Somebody snitched or something? RT: How do you say -- somebody used a dime. (laughs) JJ: Somebody dropped a dime. RT: Dropped a dime. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible). RT: Yeah, so, anyway, at that time, also, I remember that -- JJ: So we’re not talkin’ about a lot of money here, we’re talkin’ quarters, nickels -- RT: Yeah, nickels, dimes, and dollars. JJ: People were just kind of doing it for fun, basically. RT: Yeah, it’s more or less a get together and -- JJ: You just kind of contribute it to the food of the house and stuff. (inaudible) (laughter) So it was a business. (laughter) It would have had a big business, is what I’m saying. RT: At that time, the old man was the only one that was working. And somehow or other, he used to have [00:06:00] saved bonds and stuff for emergencies, and every once in a while, he’d cash them. So I guess he had enough where they 4 �went and they opened a restaurant on Wells and Superior, and that was right next to your Water Hotel. JJ: Right, and we were still living in the Water Hotel. That’s why I thought that you lived at the Water Hotel, too, because I used (inaudible). RT: Right. Well, Marta had moved -- at that time, Marta had moved from 1023 North La Salle, and she lived at the Water Hotel with Willy. JJ: So she moved back. RT: She moved there. Actually -- you go ahead. JJ: No, go ahead. RT: So actually, that lasted for a while, and I switched schools from Ogden School which was a kindergarten, first grade, second grade that I went to, something like that. JJ: Okay, so what was that like? RT: This Ogden School, I believe [00:07:00] it was by -- I don’t know why they call it -I guess it was by Ogden. What was the name of that park up there? By Clark and State. JJ: They called it -- RT: Close to Quigley. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Close to Quigley? Isn’t Ogden around there somewhere? JJ: Yeah, Ogden school is right by there. RT: Then that’s the school that I went to. JJ: By Clark Street. 5 �RT: Yeah, that’s the school that I went to. And so after that, they switched me -- JJ: Between Holy Name Cathedral and Ogden, yeah. RT: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible). RT: After that, they switched me, I believe it was St. Joseph’s school which is a grammar school, also. JJ: How far did you go into St. Joseph’s? RT: I must have went there for the next couple of years or so. And that’s when -- JJ: What do you remember of that -- of that school? RT: Actually, I remember bein’ chased home every day. (laughter) JJ: Being chased home? RT: Yeah. See, that wasn’t really [00:08:00] the neighborhood that we belonged to. Anything west of La Salle Street was infested with gangs, and it was AfroAmericans, and they didn’t like anybody but Afro-Americans. JJ: Cabrini-Green, right? RT: Yeah. JJ: Cabrini-Green. So they chased you every day? RT: So they waited until I got out of school, and I was already ready. There was somebody that lived in a -- JJ: I think we got chased one time together. Me, you, and Willy. RT: We might have, yeah. On the second floor, my mother rented an apartment to these guys that all they wanted it for was body building. And they had weights, 6 �they had benches there, they had boxing glove -- I mean boxing bag. And they’d have boxing lessons there and everything. And so -JJ: And this was 1023 La Salle? RT: 1023 North La Salle. So then I volunteered [00:09:00] to help ’em clean up and move the stuff around after they finished, put everything back, so long as I could kind of train a little bit so I wouldn’t be chased every day. (laughter) JJ: We got to get these guys back. RT: So I was doing that for a while. JJ: So part of you going to school was physical exercise. You had to run. RT: No, you didn’t need gym, you had that on the way there and when you came out. (laughter) So, anyway, they noticed that. And one time we got chased, like you said, so I remember getting there just in the nick of time and closing the door. JJ: A few of us kind of hung out together, right? Of the cousins. RT: Well, at that time, I think you mentioned something about the mattresses. If you were, then I guess we hung out there. (laughter) JJ: The mattresses from the -- RT: The roof in the 1023 by the garage. [00:10:00] And I don’t know, I think Willy -- JJ: Me, you, and Willy. RT: And Willy was there. JJ: And Samuel (inaudible) or something. RT: Yeah. So, anyway, then they realized what was happening. And then Ramon and [Clouta?], they used to live over on North Park across -- JJ: They were uncles and aunts? 7 �RT: Yes, those are our uncles and aunts. And so across the street from them, there was a grammar school, Immaculate Conception. And they wanted to keep me in the Catholic school, so they switched me over there, and I guess I spent maybe from sixth to eighth grade at Immaculate Conception. JJ: From what grade to what grade? RT: Sixth to eighth grade. And it was there that -- JJ: And did you go to Franklin at all or no? RT: No, [00:11:00] I didn’t go to any public schools. JJ: So you went to St. Joseph, and you went to Ogden -- RT: Except for Ogden. Except for Ogden School. JJ: And then you went to Immaculate Conception. RT: Then I went to Immaculate Conception. JJ: And how was Immaculate Conception? RT: They had one lay teacher, the rest of them were nuns. Pretty strict, it was mostly white. I don’t know, Irish -- if there some Lithuanian or -- but some of the people that went there were from -- you know, people that had some bucks, their parents were well-known or whatever. JJ: Well-to-do people? RT: Yeah, well-to-do people. JJ: And this was on North Park by North Avenue? Just south of -- RT: Yeah, just north of Shiller on North Park. JJ: So who were your friends there? 8 �RT: At that time, you get to know different people. [00:12:00] I got to know a guy named Paul [Pfister?]. And he was more or less like the look up guy, everybody looked up to him. It consisted of different races and that. In the beginning, it was real hard to make friends, you know what I’m saying? But with Paul Phister, I got to learn -- meet other people -- Damian, there was a guy named John Spar, there was a guy named Kenny Neehoff and his brother, Earl. And I remember my sister -- JJ: Your sister, what’s her name? RT: Margarita. I think she went to that Cooley. JJ: So she didn’t go to your school? RT: Cooley School. And she used to hang around [00:13:00] with Noreen Collins. I’m pretty sure that you’ve heard of her. Well, what happened is somehow or other, we got -- this guy had a basement, and we used to go there to play records, and we were at that age where you get to meet girls and stuff like that. And so we’d kind of hang out, and it turned out to be a club. JJ: This is Pfister? RT: Paul Pfister, he had a nickname of Peppy. (laughs) So, anyway, we decided to get a name for the club. So somebody brought up the name Rebels. I guess there was a song out at that time called “The Rebel.” JJ: He’s a rebel (inaudible). RT: Yeah, that’s the song. So then this other guy, [00:14:00] he got a hold of this place where they would make these sweaters for your club, so we decided on a color, I think it was black and white, stuff like that. And from then on, it was just -- 9 �this was our little group. The only ones that could go to the clubhouse -- when you nothing to do and wanted to go there and hang out, you’d just go there and you could hang out and listen to the records, whatever it is. JJ: So people like Sheila, and Mary, and Lynn? RT: Sheila, and Mary Coin, and Lynn were from Immaculate Conception, and so those are kind of like, I want to say, the Rebelettes. (laughter) JJ: Those were the Rebelettes at the time. Now later on, some of them became [00:15:00] Young Lordettes? RT: Yeah, after that, some of them did. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Was it Lynn? Lynn one of them? JJ: Lynn, and Sheila, and Mary. And Mary (inaudible)? RT: Sheila married the -- JJ: We were only a block away from each other. RT: Well, this was through Immaculate Conception because they used to hold -- I believe it was Father Ring, he used to hold dances to -- because there was a big change -- JJ: As the neighborhood changed. RT: The neighborhood was changing. Old town was starting to become more noted. It used to be nothing but antique stores, and now it was restaurants, it was -- JJ: But now there were more Puerto Ricans movin’ in from La Salle Street and all that. 10 �RT: Well, actually, I don’t know if they moved in from La Salle Street, but there were Puerto Ricans living on the north side that were close to St. Michael’s. [00:16:00] And they were -- JJ: They were going to Immaculate Conception church. RT: They were going to St. Michael’s, stuff like this. JJ: But didn’t they have masses in Immaculate Conception? RT: Yeah, but there was no Spanish mass there. JJ: Oh, no Spanish mass? RT: No, this was all just -- like I said, the people that went there, that was the top grammar school to go to. JJ: I see what you’re saying. But there were Puerto Ricans that went there, but there was no Spanish mass. RT: Because there weren’t too many Puerto Ricans there. There might have been -I can maybe count about five or six. JJ: Oh, that’s all? RT: Yeah. JJ: They did have some dances there? RT: No, no, this was later on. This was towards, say, my eighth grade, and freshman year, and stuff like that. JJ: Oh, okay, so this was later then. RT: That’s when the Young Lords, I believe, started coming around and -- JJ: We had a(inaudible), yeah. RT: Yeah. It wasn’t only the Young Lords, you had different -- 11 �JJ: [00:17:00] So the Black Eagles, (inaudible). RT: Black Eagles Paragons, whatever -- that used to come around. And so -- JJ: You were talking about before this. RT: My freshman year was Quigley North, and right around there is when all of this stuff was happening. JJ: Well, let’s go back for a second. Note the Quigley, but let’s go back to -- okay, you’re on La Salle Street, and I had mentioned one thing about jumping off the garage in the back. What do you remember of -- like some of the stuff that the youth did, the young people used to do -- that you used to do? RT: Actually, I didn’t really hang out. What I used to do was go up and use the weight room with the guys. I mean there was really not much you can do. [00:18:00] Next door we had cousins from my uncle’s side that married AfroAmerican, and they used to come by every once in a while. If you remember them. There was -- the youngest one was Brother. JJ: Who? RT: Brother. JJ: That was his name? RT: The second one was Neal, and the oldest one was Otis. JJ: Jiménez? They were Jiménez? RT: They were Jiménez. JJ: They were African American, but Jimenez. RT: Right. He was Jiménez. JJ: And their father was our uncle, Rogelio. 12 �RT: Their father was -- JJ: (inaudible) or Rogelio? RT: Rogelio. JJ: Yeah. Jiménez. So he was your mother’s brother and my father’s brother. My father’s brother. RT: Yeah. And so they were much older. They were much older than I was, so there was really nobody my age to hang out with. I believe you, and I, and Willie got together a lot, but Willy was going to a different school. [00:19:00] I think he went to Holy Name Cathedral, so his time was taken up by basketball. JJ: Right, he was playing basketball. RT: He was into sports all the time. So, really, there wasn’t anything at La Salle for me. Not until we got to Immaculate Conception that -- within the same club, I took music lessons, my father took me to get music lessons. And I learned a little bit on the guitar, and what I learned I taught this other guy named Kenny Neehoff, and he became second guitar in the -- I believe that a guy named Damian which is Falstino’s brother that was -- their parents were the ones that let us use the club, you might say, the basement, so that they could keep an eye on us, and they know where we’re at, and stuff like that. [00:20:00] She bought him a set of drums and he became my drummer. JJ: Whose basement? Which club are you talking about? RT: It was the Rebel’s clubhouse. JJ: Okay. 13 �RT: Also we had the group which we named after the club. It was the Rebels. So we didn’t play in any (inaudible). JJ: So then the Rebels were also a musical group. RT: Yeah. We didn’t play in any real big places, but we used to play for our own little get-togethers and socials. JJ: Right there for the students in that school? RT: Right. JJ: Your parents had that restaurant, though, on what was it? What do you -- RT: It was on Wells and Superior. JJ: What do you remember of that? How did it look? How was the restaurant? RT: Well, they had a pool table inside of there. My mother used to -- she used to do the cooking. The old man worked the night shift after sleeping [00:21:00] a little. JJ: Where did he work? RT: He worked at Western Electric. JJ: And he just came from Puerto Rico and found a job there? RT: He found a job there, that’s what he was doing all the -- that’s the only thing he’s done. JJ: What did he do at Western Electric? RT: He used to work the machine, the wire machine. I believe they made all different sized cables for -- you could say for many things from communication cables, and power cables, and telephone cables. I remember he used to get these little pins with the phones on them because they had some kind of contracts -Western Electric, I believe, also made phones. 14 �JJ: Where was that at? Where was Western Electric at? RT: I think it was on Cicero and 22nd. Somewhere around there. JJ: So how did he get there? That’s pretty far. RT: How did he get there? He had his car. [00:22:00] I remember he had a ’56 Cadillac. JJ: (inaudible). (laughter) RT: I remember that I was asking him to let me drive down North Park so I could show -- JJ: And you drove? RT: Yeah, I did okay until I turned the corner (laughter) and the wheel didn’t go back by itself. (laughter) So I kind of dragged the parked car a little bit, and then I finally -- the car finally stopped when that car hit the other car. So then it turned out that -- JJ: So your father (inaudible). RT: Yeah, well, no, he was mad. (laughter) He was mad. Now I know why he never took me to get my license. (laughter) But it turned out that the owner of the [00:23:00] corner store was the owner of that car that we hit -- that I hit. So, you know, they kind of came to an arrangement of some type. JJ: Were they Spanish, too, or no? RT: Yeah, he was Spanish. I think he was mixed. He was married with an American girl, and he was Spanish, and they had a crazy daughter. (laughs) JJ: So your father was working at Western Electric, and he got through family or he got it on his own? 15 �RT: He was working there before I even knew where he was working. JJ: But your mom had the restaurant. RT: She was the cook, and they had what they call (Spanish) [00:23:47]. These are the people that came from PR that went to the Water Hotel. They were bachelors. Whenever they got jobs and stuff like that, they [00:24:00] got the rooms there. And since they weren’t married, half of them, then these guys would automatically be the (Spanish) [00:24:08]. They’ll come in, and she would have their food ready because each one of them had a certain time that they got off of work, and they’ll be there and that. That was kind of her full-time job, my mother’s. And then my father would come in when he woke up before he went to work and he would do anything that had to be done around there that a guy has to do. Pool table this or that, or order -- JJ: So they had a pool table and a few chairs at the tables? RT: Yeah. Well, they had like a counter to eat. JJ: Oh, so they ate at the counter. RT: Yeah. I don’t remember it being a fancy restaurant with the tables, and the, candles and stuff like that. It was a [00:25:00] small place. JJ: Okay, was it like a square place? RT: Yeah. JJ: So she can make a lot of money off -- there were so many people coming from Puerto Rico at that time, so that’s who’s coming? RT: Yeah. So, anyway, that went on for a while. I remember even until I moved to North Park -- when we moved to North Park, she still had the restaurant. I 16 �believe he used to take her -- drive her over there, and Margaret was in charge of making our lunches for school. She’s the one that basically took care of both of us, yeah. There was only two of us. I think Poppo was a still baby or something. JJ: What do you recall of the neighborhood? Do you remember anything about that neighborhood? RT: [00:26:00] The neighborhood was -- JJ: Was there beach or anything like that? RT: No, we used to go to North Avenue Beach. We used to go over by Oak Street Beach, and, you know -- with the guys. Whatever we did, we mostly did with the guys. JJ: Which guys? RT: Well, the Rebels. (laughs) JJ: The what? RT: The Rebels. JJ: Oh, with the Rebels. You used to go to North Avenue. But you don’t recall going to Oak Street Beach with just people from Superior Street or anything like that? RT: No, nobody. JJ: (inaudible) from that street? RT: Nobody. Nobody went there. JJ: So that’s lost from your mind -- or people from La Salle Street? 1023 La Salle. RT: I don’t remember going with them anywhere. Nowhere. That’s what I’m trying to say. There was really nothing at 1023 North La Salle. JJ: Well, what about Willy? What about Willy? 17 �RT: Well, Willy was already in -- JJ: [00:27:00] What do you remember doing with Willy? RT: Okay, he was at Holy Name Cathedral, and then once in a while, he would come over with us, and I introduced him to the guys, and I said, “Hey, this is my cousin, Willy. He’s going to Holy Name and he’s on the basketball team over there.” This was at grammar school. JJ: A member of the scorpions. RT: Something like that. So then we kind talked to him, and he liked the crowd, the guys, because all he knew was basketball. (laughs) And the lake shore, there was a little facility out there where they had the tracks. JJ: Right. On lake shore, yeah. Over there by (inaudible). RT: And then they had ice skating there. JJ: By the university over there (inaudible). RT: We used to cross the street from the lake. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Yeah, right around there. [00:28:00] So, anyway, he joined the club, and it wasn’t soon after that he transferred from -- JJ: So he joined the Rebels, too? RT: Yeah. Soon after that, he transferred from -- instead of continuing with Holy Name, he went to St. Michael’s. JJ: Okay, because I know they had a group called the Scorpions, too, at that time, (inaudible). RT: Yeah, see, I didn’t hang around with anybody from -- 18 �JJ: (inaudible) at that time. RT: -- Holy Name Cathedral. I used to know some guys there once a while, but -when they were with them, but other than that, we weren’t really social. JJ: So when your mom and my mother and father and all of them played loteria, what did you do? RT: What did I do? (laughs) I don’t know. I guess we might have played around on the side with them, faking, to see, just to [00:29:00] keep us entertained. I mean we were young. Margaret, I remembered, might have played. She was older than I was, and she -- JJ: We were young, that’s what I’m saying, so what did we do (inaudible)? RT: I don’t remember. It’s almost like all that is -- went through it and that was it. JJ: So tell me about the Rebels. What kind of things did you get involved in? You said it’s a band. RT: It was a group of guys, and then the guys had girlfriends that came around and that. And they had their own little group, and I believe even Margaret in that for a while. And so how do you say it? That time was spent, I don’t know -- JJ: [00:30:00] What was Margaret like? RT: Margaret, she was going to Cooley. I believe she was gonna get some kind of diploma for cutting hair or something. And she was older than I was, and she also had her older friends like Mary Coin would hang with us, Sheila Coin would hang with her. They did their things and we did our things. I didn’t hang with my sister. (laughter) JJ: So she had her friends, very good friends, Pappo had his friends. 19 �RT: Pappo? That’s another story. Pappo -- I don’t even remember what Pappo was doing. I don’t remember. Do you remember? No, you don’t remember. [00:31:00] He was young. You see the family picture. Because if I was in grammar school, heck, he must have been in fifth grade -- third grade. JJ: You mentioned Quigley. RT: Quigley. When I graduated from Immaculate Conception, I used to be an altar boy there. And we had to go to mass on Sundays. JJ: How long were you an altar boy? RT: From, I think, seventh to ninth grade. Maybe part of sixth. JJ: So you were an altar boy, and it’s primarily -- you said that Immaculate Conception was a more well-to-do school. RT: Yeah. JJ: And not too many Latinos. RT: Right. That’s when mass was in Latin and you had to learn Latin. (laughs) JJ: That’s a good accomplishment for -- you know, at that time. RT: We had to say the prayers in Latin [00:32:00] and whatever. But the thing is that Father Ring came up to me, and he says, “What do you feel about going to Quigley?” I says, “Quigley?” He says, “Yeah, it’s a -- I think you might have a vocation. Maybe you should kind of try it.” I believe they asked you the same thing. (laughter) JJ: But there only 20 people (inaudible). (laughter) RT: Did you go to seminary at one time? JJ: Yeah, I did. I actually did. I went to (inaudible). So you went -- 20 �RT: So I says, “Yeah, I’ll agree, but, you know” -- I said, “That school is too expensive.” The only people that went there was people from the suburbs. And they split it so that you’d go to school on Saturday, and you were off Friday just to separate you from the regular crowd. [00:33:00] You were expected to do three hours of homework a night, and then you would be tested the next day on your three hours of homework, so you had to know it. And if you didn’t have it, everybody else had it, so you know how would you feel. (laughs) So it was kind of rough. But as it turned out, after my freshman year -- it was kind of hard to be split from the crowd because now Wells Street, there was a lot of different guys from different neighborhoods coming in there. We used to call them the longhairs or whatever, but I’m sure some of them were Taylor Street, there was some guys from different places. And they weren’t all there for fun. And so this was our neighborhood. JJ: They weren’t there for fun meaning what? RT: [00:34:00] Meaning, you know -- JJ: Like a gang or something? RT: Yeah. They’d go out there and drink, they’d get rowdy, they’d -- JJ: Wells Street is right by North Park. RT: So we needed to stick together. JJ: Wells Street is Old Town (inaudible). RT: Yeah. You got Wells Street, you got Wieland. I mean you got North Park, you got Wieland, and you got Wells, if I remember correctly, right? JJ: Right. 21 �RT: And that’s right in our neighborhood, that’s two blocks away. So, anyway -- JJ: So these long-hairs are coming into Old Town. RT: Yeah. JJ: Your neighborhood. RT: Yeah, so then we heard, well, they got (inaudible) over there, and they picked a fight with ’em, and there was about two other guys with the other guys, so that’s when we banded together and we said, “Well, from now, we go there.” JJ: Who’s we? RT: The Rebels. We go there -- whenever one guy wants to go out there, we go together. [00:35:00] You don’t get caught by yourself. So, anyway -- JJ: So before you were a social club, but now the long-hairs are coming in and making the neighborhood -- so now you’re becoming a little more physical. RT: Well, no, you just have to let yourself be known that -- how do you say it? JJ: Let it be known. RT: Yeah, you’re there. You know, just because they came in to -- Wells Street changed all of a sudden we’re supposed to change? Or we don’t belong there? JJ: What do you mean that Wells Street changed? RT: Well, because it used to be like mostly antique shops, now all of a sudden you had Piper’s Alley, you had Like Young, you had all these businesses and restaurants popping up everywhere and prices are going up, all the little guys are being bought off. [00:36:00] I think to this day, Wells Street is supposed to be real -- it spread. It spread from just that north -- yeah, big bucks. JJ: All the little guys are being bought out, do you mean the storeowners? 22 �RT: Yeah. They rehab them and make restaurants and stuff. You couldn’t afford it. I couldn’t afford to go and eat in one of them bigs. It used to be like Rush Street, remember how Rush Street was? Wells Street started to become the same way. JJ: Like Rush Street? RT: Yeah. JJ: But before it was just a regular street. RT: Yeah, before it was just regular antiques, like I don’t know, like something that we saw not too long ago out in the -- what’s the name? Where Meredith’s got her camper out there -- Wilmington. [00:37:00] They got a whole town that’s basically like that -- old-fashioned store here, they got -- you know, it’s nice. Everybody goes into all the stores and whatever. But then this changed into partyville, Old Town was partyville, like Piper’s Alley, and they had all these bands come in and play. And so I think at that time, the Young Lords, when they were coming around for the dances over at Immaculate Conception and all that, they kind of had a few problems with the long-hairs, too. (laughter) And so I says, “Oh, well, at least we’re not alone.” (laughter) JJ: So you had all these people from different parts of the city, some of them were gang bangers coming in. RT: Yeah. Right. JJ: You didn’t say gang-bangers they were long-horns. RT: [00:38:00] Yeah, long-hairs. We used to call them long-hairs. They’re hippies. They were hippies at that time. JJ: But these were hippies from the neighborhood, not hippies from (inaudible). 23 �RT: These hippies didn’t live in the neighborhood. JJ: Okay, not that neighborhood. RT: No. JJ: So they were coming from all over the city, the suburbs, everywhere. RT: Exactly. JJ: They kind of invaded your neighborhood. RT: Well, that was the place for them to go. That’s where their stuff was at. It was built for them. (laughs) It wasn’t built for the poor people. (laughs) JJ: So it was built for them, and so they all united and kind of took over the poor neighborhood there. RT: Yeah, and then they started spreading. JJ: The neighborhood was mixed, but it was poor. RT: Right. Well, it was -- JJ: I mean there was white, and Puerto Rican, and Mexican. RT: There was a lot of Irish. Like the Coins were Irish. And what was Peppy? Peppy, [00:39:00] I think, was Italian-Irish. JJ: So it was it a mixed ethnic neighborhood, but it was poor, it was working-class poor, whatever you want to call it. And these other long-hairs were more money people. RT: Exactly. They were from well-to-do families. JJ: So there was a clash between like their kind of culture and our kind of culture. RT: And ours. And I wouldn’t call it racial because in reality, the Rebels, we had Mexican, we had Puerto Rican -- we had this guy named Com, he was Mexican. 24 �Com, big guy. John Spar, Italian. And we had Peppy, German-Irish-Italian. Kenny Neehoff, Italian. You know, they looked at us, and they said -- you know, when you look at -- it can’t be a gang because you’re all together. Like [00:40:00] you would say Gaylords, Italian; Young Lords, Puerto Rican; Paragons, Puerto Rican, you know what I’m saying? The Blacks would have theirs, whatever. And so this was us, this is why Willy liked it, and this is why -we enjoyed being with each other. We didn’t feel any of that, but this was something else now. Now that was a part that we couldn’t go to like we used to. JJ: They wouldn’t let us go to there? RT: Well, you would have problems every time you’d go through there because I don’t know if they thought we were looking for trouble. JJ: We didn’t fit in at that time. RT: Right. JJ: And so if we walked through there -- I mean even the police would (inaudible) because they didn’t want us there. We were messing with their business. RT: So, anyway, to finish with that part because after that, what happened was [00:41:00] I kept on hanging with them. And one day, I guess, me, Willy, and another guy, I don’t know -- got some runners, and we got some beers and stuff, and I got pretty ripped. And so I was kind of turning, I was just drunk. They were bringing me home. Couldn’t walk right, so they were holding me, and they were bringing me home. Who do I run into? Father Ring. He says, “I don’t think that you have a vocation anymore.” (laughter) And so he says, “If I were you, I’d think this through and be honest with yourself.” Because I really wasn’t paying tuition, 25 �[00:42:00] the tuition was free because of the vocation, and I didn’t want to take advantage of that. And I didn’t like the Saturdays (laughs) and the three hours homework. So for my sophomore year, I went to St. Mike’s. JJ: So you went one year there? RT: Yeah. Sophomore year I was there with Willy because Willy transferred from Holy Name and he played on St. Michael’s team and everything -- basketball team. They wanted him, (laughs) he was good. So we hung out together, now we got Willy. Now Willy’s in the group and now, like I said, the dances are going on with Father Ring, you got different gangs coming around the neighborhood. And somehow or other, all kinds of stuff started happening. Store owners [00:43:00] didn’t want nobody hanging around in front of the establishments and stuff. JJ: Where was this at? RT: Like North Avenue and North Park -- Wieland. Wieland and what was that? North Avenue? JJ: Right. RT: And I guess a couple of times we banged heads with the owners. It wasn’t so much the Rebels, but it was a mixture of guys. (laughs) And, you know, after a couple of times of doing that, one time we busted the windows, and they called the cops. And so I remember being handcuffed to somebody else (laughter) [00:44:00] and thrown in the paddy wagon. JJ: So who was that? RT: You. (laughter) 26 �JJ: Okay, so we were handcuffed why? Why were we handcuffed? RT: Because we were fighting against the place. They didn’t want no -- what did they say? Puerto Rican gangs out here (laughter) hanging around the establishment and blah, blah, blah. JJ: We were just trying to hang out (inaudible). RT: Yeah, just hang out. JJ: A few bottles of wine. RT: Yeah, that’s all. JJ: That’s all. (laughter) (inaudible), a few (inaudible). RT: So, anyway -- JJ: So you go and got handcuffed, and what happened after that? RT: What happened after that, my parents had to go and get me. JJ: We were still young. RT: Yeah, we were still young. We were under age, they couldn’t get us for -- they got us for criminal damage to property, and the warning, and custody [00:45:00] of the parents. Somehow or other, he got together -- my father got together with Don Jesus and they had some kind of deal on a house on the south side. That would be the 5721 South Peoria. JJ: 5721 South Peoria. RT: Where Jesus lived on the first floor, it was a two-story home, and then we would live on the second floor. JJ: And Jesus Rodriguez? RT: Jesus Rodriguez. 27 �JJ: Jesus Rodriguez and Pablo Trinidad. RT: Yeah, they went in halves. JJ: I think they went half on a house. RT: Yeah, I believe the house at that time was $18,000, so they had to come up with -- or finance $9,000 each. And I was still going to -- JJ: [00:46:00] They were members of the (inaudible). RT: Yeah, they both belonged to that Fidelity Hall and St. Mark’s Concilio Numero 3, where they had the activities. I went there to a couple of their activities, too. JJ: Which activities did you go to? RT: What did they have? They used to have ball games over at Humboldt Park. JJ: Humboldt Park? RT: I mean Lincoln Park, right? It was Lincoln Park first. JJ: Yeah, Lincoln Park first. RT: Yeah, Lincoln Park. And then I got to know Jesus’ kids, Jose, and Carmelo, and Danny. JJ: How’d you meet them? RT: I’d seen them around Fidelity Hall, like Carmelo, they’d say, “Hey, this is Don Jesus’ son,” the guy most likely to become [00:47:00] -- or be -- you know? (laughs) Because of his schooling and all this other stuff. So that’s fine. I got to meet the rest of them, Danny, and Jose, and -- JJ: What were they like? Were they a little different, each one? Or what were they like? RT: No, Danny and I were about the same. Same age, we had the same interests. 28 �JJ: What were your interests? Tell us your interests. RT: Well, mine was the band and his was the band, too. He wanted me to join their group and play salsa, and I wanted to start a group of my own and play rock. (laughs) So it so happened that that’s when we first started living there, and then I had continued to take that Halsted Street bus all the way -- with a transfer to get to St. Michael’s. And it became a hassle. JJ: [00:48:00] So you were on the south -- and still going to St. Michael’s. RT: Yeah, but then I let it go to get a job -- to try and get a job because now I was starting to get older, and I wasn’t doing anything in school. JJ: What about Margaret, and Poppo, and them? What were they doing? RT: Like I said, Poppo had his little kids he hung out with. (laughs) JJ: He had his group. RT: Yeah, he had the little kids. JJ: What was the name of his group? RT: He didn’t have a name at that time. But when he was on the south side, I think it was the Latin Souls, but -- JJ: The Latin Souls, yeah, that’s -- RT: But, anyway, that’s jumping. JJ: Let’s go back, (inaudible). RT: So, anyway, what happened? JJ: You were taking the bus back and forth to St. Michael’s. F: Got engaged. 29 �RT: [00:49:00] Oh, you remember that, huh? (laughter) Oh, yeah. There was a club over there, and I believe it was -- their chapter was Concilio Numero 1. And so the kids around my age or a little older, had a gang -- it wasn’t a club, it was a gang called the Latin Souls. And in there, they also had a Latin Soul band. And so I listened to them play one time and I noticed that they didn’t have a bass player. They had Sammy as the rhythm, and they had little David as the lead, and so I said, “Hey, man, I’ll try the bass for you.” He said, “Yeah, okay.” The old man helped me get a Fender amp, got a [00:50:00] guitar. I had a job, odds and ends jobs, they were nothing to keep, they were just to bring in money while you can. And I was in that group for a while. JJ: Where’d you guys play? RT: We used to play at small weddings. We played at house parties, whenever somebody had a birthday party or somethin’ and the house was big enough. JJ: In that area or -- RT: Yeah, on the south side area. JJ: South side, 55th Street? RT: Yeah. So, anyway, Little David, the lead, quit, so then I started to play lead, and Sammy became a rhythm player, and we got this other guy to play bass for us. And along comes a singer, and we take him, and his name was Tony Santiago, and along comes this crazy guy with sunglasses, [00:51:00] looked like he didn’t know where to go, but he had a set of drums, I said, “Get over here.” (laughter) That was Crazy Joe. (laughs) And so this was it. This was my south side clan. I 30 �guess what she wants me to tell you is I had a girlfriend and stuff like that, and I figured get married. You know, that’s the first thing everybody thinks of. JJ: Who was your girlfriend? RT: It was [Elma Valez?], but, you know, it really never got real serious, we were just in that process. It would be an engagement, you know, I’d say. And so it was broken off, anyway. But after that, to jump a little bit more now -- JJ: [00:52:00] Don’t go too fast. RT: No, I was in the group, and that’s basically what we did. And then there was a couple of -- you know, whenever there’s gangs, there’s fights at dances or clubs, and if you’re there, you’re part of it. You have to be. So after that, the band was still going, everything was doing good, we even got this college kid to play organ for us, his name was Peter. You remember Peter? F: The singer, (inaudible). RT: And we had a girl singer. We played at a theater after the movie. It was a Spanish theater, the Sunsets. JJ: On the south side? RT: Yeah, on 47th. What was that? The People’s? At one time, it was called The People’s, then it became -- F: [Ashland?] RT: Yeah. And we played there, Tony and -- we were the group. We had a female, the first female [00:53:00] and a male singer where they’d sing songs like Peaches & Herb and stuff like that. Tammi Terrell and, you know (laughter) -- so 31 �it was pretty good. And then I got my dear -- how do you say it? “This is Uncle Sam” letter. JJ: Okay, you got your letter. RT: Yeah. And he says, “Have somebody drive you to this office downtown tomorrow. Bring toothpaste, enough clothes for one day, and don’t worry about going back because you won’t be going back.” (laughter) JJ: So how’d you feel about that? Because they had a war going on at that time. RT: Yeah, they did. That was bad. So I said, “You know what? What am I going to do? The old man went, he was in the Army, he served his time in the Korean war.” JJ: He served in Korea? Your father? RT: Yeah. And I said, “I’m going to do what was expected of me to do.” I could’ve went to Canada [00:54:00] with a bunch of guys, (laughter) said, “I’m going to Canada.” JJ: You weren’t into that? RT: No. The ones that were going up there were the people that had money, that their parents sent them out there and they didn’t want go. They were flunking out of school. If you flunked out of school, you’d be drafted. JJ: No, but I’m saying you were growing up in Catholic school in Chicago like everybody else, you were supporting the United States. RT: Yeah. JJ: So they call you to go to service and you go into the service. 32 �RT: Yeah, it was a draft. They let it known that it was a draft, there was no volunteering about it. JJ: You didn’t mind? RT: Well, I figure it’ll be something better than what I have now. First of all, the relationship just broke. (laughs) And then the only thing we got is the group, and I got no job. So maybe this will give me a chance, so I went. JJ: So you go [00:55:00] there and -- RT: Yeah, I’m expecting to out, basic training and everything. I’m expecting to go to Vietnam. Every other platoon was going -- one was going to Germany, one was going to ’Nam. Back up, one was going to front, back up front. Just turned that mine’s was back up. I said, “Oh.” So I ended up in Germany for 18 months. JJ: How was that? What kind of experience was that? RT: It was actually a continuation of your training because you’re supposed to be ready at any time. At any time, they could send you from Germany to Vietnam. When they invaded Cambodia, they already had people lined up ready to go. And we were gonna go, but the president called them back from Cambodia because, I believe, China threatened to get in if the U.S. kept marching. They were supposed to be in Vietnam, they’re already now in another spot. [00:56:00] So this was good. That’s another good deal. I came back home, and stuff like that, and tried to start up a group -- get into a group. That’s when I met her at a ball game. JJ: So you tried to start another band? RT: Yeah, Orchestra Nine we called it. (laughs) 33 �JJ: And you said something about a ball game where you met (inaudible). RT: Yeah, there was a little park over there where the guys -- the older guys, they weren’t really concilio, were they concilio? No. They were just like Renegades, the Renegades and this and that. F: They just made their own team. RT: And so we were there, and I just happened to have enough money from -- money that I got from the Army and all that. Peter. So she needed a ride, [00:57:00] I said, “Yeah, you’re Caesar’s daughter, right?” Gave her a ride, next thing you know, mother’s calling me in, says, “You can’t take my daughter out. (laughter) What do you think you’re doing?” JJ: So (inaudible). RT: She says, “You got to talk to her. You got to talk to her. She wants to talk to you.” So I walk in there, and he says, “It’s about time you come in here to ask for my daughter -- to visit her.” I said, “I didn’t come to ask for the house visit, I came to tell you that we’re getting married.” (laughter) I got a job, I’m taking $10 an hour, we got a little apartment. JJ: Now, where were you working? RT: Well, I got a job at Chicago Candles. That was [00:58:00] thanks to my -- the one that left me, her sister was the secretary there, and she got me in as a supervisor on a candle -- or a conveyer line where you’d fill out orders and have the guy bring in the different -- you look at the orders, you bring in the different bases, you put the right scent on the wax tank, and then you get the girls ready -I’d have a guy fill them, then before it dries, I’d have somebody straighten up the 34 �wicks, and then they would throw glitter on them if it called for glitter. It was pretty good, but -JJ: It sounded like you were pretty excited about the job. RT: Yeah, it was pretty good, but it wasn’t really what I wanted. I don’t think I wanted to -- JJ: It was pretty good though. So what did you want? RT: Actually, I got my GED, I forgot to say, in the Army. [00:59:00] Yeah, (inaudible). So I had extra time out there, I used to go to (inaudible). And then they had the educational facilities, so I’d study and then you take the exam for GED which I got. When we got married, I told her, I said, “You know, I’ll work -- spend minimum, you go to school, you finish.” Then when she finished, I used my GI bill and I went to refrigeration air condition and heating and got -- I wanted to be - have a good job. So I completed that. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Yeah, I got a diploma from there, and I started doing work on my own, passing out cards and doing side jobs. I did her old man’s stores’ refrigerators, walk-in coolers, [01:00:00] and stuff like that. And then I couldn’t -- they were calling me in the wee hours of the morning to go and do work and stuff like that which I couldn’t handle. So I decided to go to the Veteran’s and use that for them to get me a job in my field, something to do with either refrigeration, air conditioning, heating, or any electrical. And they sent me to a few places, and I kept coming back because they weren’t -- one time they sent me, “Oh, you’ll be making $25 an hour at this job.” I said, “What do I got to do?” Said, “You load trucks, 35 �trailers.” I said, “That sounds good to me.” I go over there, there’s a line on this side and a line on that side -- scam. (laughter) I said, “Nope.” Go back to the Veteran’s. These guys had sticks and [01:01:00] everything else. (laughter) You’re taking their job. No way. JJ: Was this a company they sent you to? RT: The Veteran’s Administration. JJ: Oh, they sent you. RT: Yeah, they get all these jobs. JJ: (inaudible) union? RT: No, to get me a job. (laughter) JJ: But they were going to get scammed. RT: Yeah. Actually, one time, this one guy, John (inaudible), I remember, somebody told me, “When you go to this place, it’s Commonwealth Edison, you go sharp, you know, dress.” I did. They looked at me like if I was applying for an office job. (laughs) And what it was is it was electrical maintenance. And he says, “This is what you can get into, but you have to start off from the bottom.” JJ: You dressed up for the interview? RT: You dressed up for the interview. I said -- JJ: I used to go dressed up, too. RT: They asked me, “Why [01:02:00] are you so dressed up?” I said, “Well, it’s an interview.” JJ: Don’t tell me you wore a suit. RT: I wore a suit and tie. (laughs) 36 �JJ: And this is a maintenance interview? (laughter) RT: I got the job. (laughter) And then I think I was mopping floors for about a year, and then -- whenever there’s an opening, you bid on it, and I got into electrical maintenance and I worked my way all the way up to a mechanic. I was there 26 years, so that was my job. And 26 years at 50 years old. And then they decided to sell it to Midwest Generation it was called. JJ: Now what was the company? RT: The first one was Commonwealth Edison which is what I retired from. Now it’s Exelon. It’s called Exelon. But Midwest Generation still owns like the station [01:03:00] at 5th, the station at Crawford, you know, Pulaski. And that’s where I did all my time there. And so they gave me a window of opportunities. Says, “You can retire” -- because the numbers have to come up to 72. “You’re 26 with 50 years, you’re way over. You’re 50 years old with 26 years work, that’s over 72.” So I said, “Okay, I’m out of here.” So they gave me a year’s salary, they gave me about three-quarters almost of my pension. I said, “Yeah, this is it.” JJ: Back up just a little bit. What do you remember of your father? What was he like? What was his name? Pablo Trinidad, right? RT: Yeah, Pablo Trinidad, he went by Resto. But now that I learn more, I’ll hear it. Resto [01:04:00] must be on his mother’s side because his relationship out here is all Trinidad. JJ: All Trinidad. They’re from San Salvador or -- 37 �RT: No. The Jiménez are from San Salvador. It would be my mother’s side. But right before you get to San Salvador, there’s a place called La Lomita, and that’s where the Trinidads are. There’s -- JJ: (inaudible). RT: It’s next to the telephone place over there. They got like a little telephone company -- or not company, station. JJ: But it’s on San Salvador, right? RT: Yeah, it’s on the way to San Salvador. And so you got Domingo living there, then you’ve got Chaleco -- these are brothers. Then you have Cholom, then you have Rogelio. JJ: So Chaleco, Cholom, and Rogelio. RT: Domingo -- they’re all brothers. JJ: [01:05:00] Of your father? RT: They’re all Trinidads. No, no, they’re cousins. JJ: They’re cousins of your father. RT: Yeah. JJ: But the whole Trinidads are from there, La Lomita. RT: Right. So they’re related through father’s side, I believe. JJ: Okay, so (inaudible)? What do you know about him? RT: Well, I don’t know. He worked nights most of the time. Like I said -- JJ: Does he (inaudible) or anything? RT: Well, I survived the car crash. (laughter) JJ: So he was (inaudible). 38 �RT: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible). (laughter) RT: Oh, yeah. That’s right, yeah. No, he took me to music lessons and stuff like that. And then after a while, he was paying -- JJ: What did he play? RT: He played cuatro. So, anyways, after a while, [01:06:00] he says, “Man, for $15 a lesson and go, ding, ding, ding, I could show you that myself.” (laughter) So he got me a guitar and I just -- JJ: So he taught me? RT: Yeah, I got me a chord book, and I learned all the chords and I practiced. And during Christmas, give parranda. JJ: Okay, so you used to do parranda (inaudible) Christmas. Did he sing, too? RT: Yeah, he was a good trovador. He used to improvise. JJ: And who else? RT: Him and his friend, Cornejo, they used to do that. And then he had some other friends out there that also played. Felix Mendoza, people from church that he met. We used to go fishing once in a while. [01:07:00] He used to like to go fishing. We used to go -- JJ: What kind of fishing was it? RT: We used to go out to the Mississippi River and catch cats -- JJ: Catfish? RT: Yeah, and stuff. It was pretty good. Nice ride and -- JJ: All the way to the Mississippi River? 39 �RT: Yeah. We used to stay overnight, camp out. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Bowling. (laughter) JJ: Bowling, too? RT: Yeah, we had a team. Okay, it was in Gage Park. I think Margaret was bowling, and the old man was bowling, and they asked me if I wanted to try out and join their team bowling, so I did. And we bowled for a while. Then we got her brother in it, George. He was part of the team. [01:08:00] And one time we took first place and everything, trophies. F: It was called La Familia. RT: Oh, La Familia. We got pictures at La Familia. JJ: You can answer questions, too. F: Yeah, I’m just saying that. RT: No, she’s reminding me of stuff that I’m skipping. But, anyway, so we did that. And when we were going to the Army, since we were hanging out and everything, he had this big party at the house. He took the two maracas -- he took one maraca from the set that we had, and he cut it in half, and then he took that half, inverted it, glued the other thing on it, he made a cup -- a wine cup out of it. Half of the maraca up there, the other half holding it as you lay it. And he filled it with whatever (inaudible) juice we were drinking at that time, and we saluded because in a couple of days, [01:09:00] I’d be out of there. I was gonna get shipped out. So we saluded, nice, everything. Basically, the rest of the story 40 �I told you. But I never played a lot of dominoes with him. That was him and his buddies. JJ: So they played? RT: Yeah, he used to like to play dominoes. And he’d go -- what was the name of that place? (Spanish) [01:09:32] JJ: (inaudible). RT: Yeah, they played dominoes there, and some people do this serious. They even got into a league where they took -- there were champs here, and then they had to go to New York, somewhere, to play against them. Me, I couldn’t play with the old man too much because whenever you make a mistake, [01:10:00] “What are you doing? (inaudible)?” (laughter) I said, “That’s it. No dominoes.” People get rowdy, man. F: He also played ball. RT: Oh, yeah. He played ball. JJ: Softball? RT: Yeah. They used him as a pitcher. JJ: (Spanish) [01:10:24]. RT: Yes. Concilio Numero 1. JJ: Concilio Numero 1. RT: Yeah. And before that, he was in Concilio Numero 3. But in Concilio Numero 1, he used to throw this dead ball underneath, and I guess it must have had a spin, everybody kept popping it up to the infield. (laughter) “No, not Pablo.” There he goes, with all of this, and he’d go -- he does it and then it pops it up to the infield. 41 �(laughter) They’re trying to hit it out the park, right? Yeah, I think with the revolution, it just -JJ: [01:11:00] (inaudible). RT: And then, I don’t know, one day he got in some kind of argument over -- I don’t know if it was a safe call or whatever it was. And they used to bring beers in coolers to the games and stuff, and the old man must have been a little bit lit, and he got in there because I don’t know if he was managing it at the time or something, but he says, “You gotta stop talking like that, man, or I’m gonna pick you up and cool you off in that pond.” The guy said, “You gonna do what?,” and he went over there and he grabbed him, he dragged him to the -- what was it? F: The lagoon. RT: The Sherman Park lagoon. (laughter) JJ: He was serious. RT: Yeah, they had to stop him from throwing the umpire in the water. (laughter) JJ: Before we get into Concilio Numero 1, what about your mom? What was she like? Doñe Nine, right? [01:12:00] What was Nine’s real name? RT: Christina. JJ: Oh, Christina Jiménez. RT: Yeah. Well, she started to have a problem later on with the beers and stuff, but other than that, she was always -- everybody that came from PR ended up at the house -- her apartment. Her policy was you’re all welcome, and she’d cook for them, let them stay there until they got their jobs and everything. So she was all good and everything. I guess maybe what happened after that was -- I don’t 42 �know, it could have even been that she was left alone too many times. (inaudible) doing stuff like that. And then she starts feeling hurt, and then, you know -- but she got sick later on from that. And then I believe it was diabetic that got her -- [01:13:00] diabetes. F: Yeah, she was, but she spoiled him. Remember, “Take your dad’s keys?” RT: Yeah. I wanted to borrow the car and, like I said, he wouldn’t lend me another car. (laughs) I think somebody from here gave him a ’63 Chevy red, real nice, and I wanted to use it to take the girl out. And so then he wouldn’t let me -- “No, I need that car for work. You’re gonna mess it up.” So then she went over there -he was sleeping, she took the keys, “Here, hurry up. Bring it back in one piece.” (laughter). Anyway, that’s basically it. After that -- JJ: I want to ask you about Council Number One? What was that story? RT: [01:14:00] Council Number One was just a concilio like Caballero de San Juan. JJ: Yeah, but how come they were first and then -- they were smaller than the Concilio -- RT: Why they’re called number one? JJ: Yeah. RT: I don’t know, but I think that before three, before Caballero de San Suan, Concilio Numero 3, the people were there, one of the first migrations was to south, way down there. And that’s where they had the first concilio. And those people moved this way, and that’s why they were one. They made this one. JJ: (inaudible) 63rd Street? 43 �F: No. You know what? In reality, to tell you the truth, I don’t -- I think that the way they got their numbers were when the cardinals committee, they went -- I think it might have been like they picked numbers because I don’t think it was this one was formed first, that one. When they became -- RT: A lot of people told me that the people from the [01:15:00] south side, we were the only ones basically there -- that went there from the north side. A lot of those people there came from south Chicago. F: And from (inaudible) Indiana. RT: Yeah. They made the south side community. F: But the concilios were picked at the cardinals committee, and it didn’t matter because there were concilios all over. And I think what it was is they picked numbers for the groups, for the different churches. And then after that, as another church got people, then they became the next number because I think that at the beginning there were only three. RT: Yeah, I don’t remember 10. F: No, because what happens -- RT: But then they started doing it against -- JJ: Who was Holy Name Cathedral? I thought they would be the first one. F: I’m telling you I think is that I think they picked numbers. And you know what? I’ll find out for you because my mom [01:16:00] would know. She would know. RT: Yeah, because the only ones that we knew was three from Lincoln Park and Humboldt Park -- and Humboldt Park is actually where you saw a lot of the 44 �different ones coming from different places. But being part or close to considering them ours would be three, and then the south side was one. JJ: And then you said the people from the south side were telling you that they came from Indiana and south Chicago? RT: Yeah, they migrated there from -- the majority of them used to live out by Euclid whatever -- F: The (inaudible). JJ: And then they migrated -- when you say to Chicago, you mean -- RT: To the south side of Chicago. JJ: Commercial? RT: No, no. On Garfield Boulevard. Garfield all the way to 63rd, right around that area. Right about, say like, Ashland all the way to [01:17:00] -- used to be -what’s the street? Our Monkey Man and all these guys -- F: Morgan? RT: No, no, no. East, going more east. You got Halsted, then you go east. Union. From Union -- JJ: Into Ashland? RT: Yeah ’cause they had that park over on that side, too, and that’s what they used to -- JJ: Yeah, (inaudible) Park. F: 51st Street to -- RT: 63rd. F: -- to 60th because nobody -- 45 �RT: Yeah, 63rd was a commercial area. F: Cut off. But what happened was people came -- you had to understand -- from Indiana -- from Puerto Rico, they went to Indiana. From Indiana, they moved over to south Chicago. From south Chicago, they moved to 63rd and Stony Island underneath the railroad track. From there, then they moved to 55th Street. How did that happen? Every time one family moved, when the other family needed a place to live, they moved, [01:18:00] and they left the steel mills. Then everybody was working in Chicago not in Indiana. So that was the migration because they didn’t want to do the steel mills no more. People were actually getting sick. RT: Yeah. That’s how (inaudible) died. Respiratory problems from all that -- JJ: (inaudible) hotels, or some people worked at the hotels. F: You know what? A lot of the hotel workers -- that happened later. I mean when (inaudible) and them got jobs, it was later, we were already (inaudible). JJ: I know, but (inaudible). But I’m talking even before this, there were people that -well, we have to look that up because (inaudible). F: Yeah, I don’t know about that. JJ: Ask your mother. You’ll have to ask your mother. F: My mom wouldn’t know about that. My mom would not know about that because she never worked, she never left the house. RT: Anybody that would know more about them would be you because of your father because your father -- if there’s [01:19:00] anybody to know it would be her old man. everybody knows him. He was always (inaudible). 46 �F: In reality, once people got into Chicago from Indiana, everyone went their separate ways job-wise. It wasn’t that the community got you a job. JJ: Okay, can you just give me any last thoughts, last word, anything like that? RT: Well, the last words is everything happens for a reason, and the reason we kept moving and finally ended to a place that we loved and then the job closed. And now we find ourselves here and I think it’s all been uphill. We never went back. Sometimes people try to go where they can’t afford [01:20:00] or fit, and they end up coming back. I think we’ve did a lot of accomplishment since we’ve been married. In our younger times, there’s not too much to say because I didn’t serve no jail time. (laughs) JJ: You never served any jail time? RT: No. I mean overnight maybe, a little DUI or something. I think I only had one in 20, 30 years. F: Forty. RT: But other than that, no. How do you say it, honorably discharged? Hey, helped me a lot. Helped me to become a tech man. That’s what I was doing. END OF VIDEO FILE 47 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99beff67eabae6f9b46153a6771b296a.mp4 2fdfab64606acc9541396604171caf23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ricci Trinidad vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Trinidad_Ricci Title A name given to the resource Ricci Trinidad interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Trinidad, Ricci Description An account of the resource Ricci Trinidad grew up in Lincoln Park. He describes his memories of the neighborhood, including the work of his parents, Pablo Trinidad Resto and Cristina “Nine” Jiménez. Doña Nine, as Mr. Trinidad’s mother was called, was a businesswoman. Early on as a new immigrant in the early 1950s she opened a restaurant, financing it with only her own funds in the La Clark neighborhood at Wells and Superior Streets. She began by cooking for the new immigrant men who were working to bring their families from Puerto Rico to Chicago in her converted, connecting room apartment at the Water Hotel. The restaurant was creative and domino leagues were organized to serve the patrons and to increase the restaurant’s bottom line. In his early years, he, William, and José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez – who were cousins and close friends -- rode bicycles and skateboards down the cobbled streets of Superior, downtown, and through the Oak Street and North Avenue beaches. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/68e4c760f23114548ef044ec6f3d209b.jpg b221becacc942bfba664b75b97f5a16f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Vietnam-Scan-080808-0094 Title A name given to the resource Rice paddies around the Quang Tri area Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 United States--History, Military Marine Corps Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Rice paddies around the Quang Tri area Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12d99970fd031af1a6b919e6a321e2a3.jpg 8f71486ae6f6a6bb7970ee29b08bea2a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Vietnam-Scan-080808-0035 Title A name given to the resource Rice paddies in the Da Nang area Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 United States--History, Military Marine Corps Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Rice paddies in the Da Nang area. The water in the paddies was usually twenty-inchs to two feet deep and at canals, the water was usually four or five feet deep and full of leeches. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/598a0a034f11a6e8f36c9cb5ad0463a6.pdf 27329e8c61f1592cbb0347afdee5fe77 PDF Text Text Women and{jenler Studies 2.014 r-reminist r-racu{t_y Scholar Professor of Gender, Women, and SexualittJ Studies UniversihJ of Minnesota MuddlJing the Waters: Co-.-Authoring Feminisms across Scholarship & Activism Mondaq, September 29th, 5-.30 p.m. N iemeqer Honors College Seeger Reading Room IiNR'2'22 Discussion & Reception � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_WGS_2014_InvitedSpeaker_RichaNagar.pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Women and Gender Studies Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-09-29 Title A name given to the resource Richa Nagar Description An account of the resource Poster of the discussion and reception for the Women and Gender Studies 2014 Feminist Faculty Scholar. Includes the place and time of the event. Subject The topic of the resource Feminism Women's studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies Department Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21073b8a354436b292bff74ec4010b47.mp4 4b3f1f2f0e0752d5bb9f305f0cf7dd33 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a43de6ab2a3ec1c1cd8ab5202ef1d6e.pdf ee0c5aef308a0fc8638903524ea5407f PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Richard (Dick) Gottlieb Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 2 [Barbara] Something about the… you like teaching, so talk to me a little tiny bit about the teaching process and how it was Jamesian and how it wasn't… [Gottlieb] Oh, God. [Barbara] I'm getting criticism but there was positive because you miss it, and you haven't said why. You haven't really said why. That's it. [Gottlieb] Each class was an attempt to create something. I'm not an academician, I'm a therapist, and I would try to come into class hoping something would happen, without planning for something to happen. And I would have a general sense of what we were covering. Maybe, by the time I was there four years, I was even doing outlines for the term, with probably twenty or twenty-five lines to cover the description of the term. And sometimes I would even follow the outlines and I would sort of have a general sense of what going on… what I was trying to cover. But I would not read lectures, or write lectures, or anything. I would try to respond to the material as it generated in class and I got better at that. That's a clinical skill, too, and it helped me practice development of creative interaction, each class. And the students who were there during that loved it, and learned a lot, and are good clinicians, some of them now. And there are people… I guess, I get some confirmation about the quality of my teaching in that there are some people now who are well past their master’s now doing work in the local area, and all of the ones I find disgustingly horrible in their work are the people who had terrible problems in my classes. And I smile a lot about that, that seems right. And the ones who are lovely and helpful, didn't… or didn’t have prolonged trouble in my class. [Julie] You… [Gottlieb] What? [Julie] Loved you. [Gottlieb] Yeah or loved me. Okay, the only other thing I want to say is that I think that having a William James College in Western Michigan in the seventies and eighties was a mistake from the beginning. Interesting notion and interesting �experiment but idiotic. The idea that it would last even ten years, seems to me, was incredible and it should've just been moved to the east coast and allowed to grow. It certainly could not survive here. Ever. Only if it stayed small and manageable. And if it stayed small and unmanageable or large, I think it was doomed. And I think that was true from the beginning. [Barbara] Do you think we should have put up a fight, though? [Gottlieb] A fight? For what? [Julie] Yes, you did. [Gottlieb] For what? What kind of fight? What do you mean? [Julie] Do you think the students should be raising hell? [Gottlieb] Oh, the students, yes, but when you say "we" I think faculty. Yes, I think the students should have burned down the damn campus. But they didn't and that's why we closed. Students will get what they want, and they did, and they do. And so now Grand Valley is more populous than it ever was before. They have more students than they know what to do with. They're rich, they're happy, they're fat, they're ridiculous, they're horrible. And there's still good faculty there, teaching good courses to good students, but there's not that magic combination that was there before. [Barbara] Julie, you have to say something because we have you… he's talking to you and if we don't see you, it’s absolutely ridiculous. [Gottlieb] If you excuse me, I'm going to him. [Unknown] Mosquito on your left leg. Good shot. [Barbara] That’s a good shot. [Unknown] You can tell she's loving it. [Julie] I'm not… [laughter]. [Unknown] I know. [Barbara] You’re going to ask the second question. I’m going to ask the first one. You know her very best. You know what to ask her. [Gottlieb] Oh, okay. �[Julie] Well, you said I should say something about the essence of William James. [Barbara] Yes, I would like to hear it. [Julie] It makes me sad to think about it. I think, for me, the essence of William James was the people. The sense of community and learning, of people coming at things from different directions, and with different vocabularies, and coming to a common understanding. And that's what felt real important. [Barbara] Stop playing with the microphone cord! [Everyone] [Laughter] [Barbara] [Inaudible] Dick, do you have a question? [Gottlieb] How did you feel about… how do you fell about the way you were made part of the community, or not made part of the community? [Barbara] As an adjunct. [Gottlieb] As an adjunct faculty. [Barbara] Good question! [Gottlieb] Thank you. [Julie] It varied. It seemed that there were some people who were committed to not seeing me as a part of the college. But, generally, it seemed like I could be there, as much as I was willing to work to be there. And I felt accepted by the students. I felt like it could be my school, too. [Barbara] Were you accepted by the institution? [Julie] No, I don't think so. [Barbara] Because? [Julie] I don't know. It was always difficult for me to tell how much of that was me being reluctant to fully enter in, and how much of that really was the institution not being real welcoming. And… yeah, I don't know, I'm… [Barbara] I have one more question, which might draw a blank, but I'm going to ask it. Talking to Stephen, it's so clear that William James College really did embody the �philosophy of William James. Did you catch… how did catch that philosophy? Did you study James when you came? In other words, there was something that made the college work, which indeed embodied James's philosophy. I'm trying to figure out how we all learned it so fast when we didn't read James. [Julie] I don't know. What I think of when you ask the question is that we were asked before we interviewed, each of us, to write a statement of our teaching philosophy. And we did that knowing nothing about what the college was about. And it was a perfect match and that just felt real nice. It's like we discovered William James College and William James College discovered, or collected, people who already had that sense of William James philosophy within them. [Barbara] Indeed. The selection process was very important. It really was. It was absolutely critical. [Julie] We came to William James and we loved the faculty. When we came for that first interview, and it felt wonderful to be with those people. [Barbara] Perhaps we can stop so that we can let that stuff [Inaudible]. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_54_Gottlieb Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gottlieb, Richard Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Richard and Julie Gottlieb interview (2 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Richard "Dick" Gottlieb and his wife Julie Gottlieb by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Richard Gottlieb was a Social Work faculty member at William James College and a co-director of the Social Work program at Grand Valley. In this interview, Richard discusses how the future of William James College was limited in West Michigan and his thoughts on the college's closing. Richard is later joined on camera by his wife and fellow social worker, Julie, who worked as an adjunct faculty in William James College and discusses the essence and importance of the William James community. This interview is part 2 of 2 for Richard Gottlieb. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Gottlieb, Julie Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Social work education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fdd5da9514612c124ccac4ce8d029585.jpg f10021bdb167922ebdc856284556e769 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1980s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000168 Title A name given to the resource Richard DeVos lectures a Business class Description An account of the resource Richard DeVos lectures a Business class. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Events Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c7abfe30266fd3ecfdc49a3a50bdd36d.jpg e92829ab94d0e05fd912aeb49cdc5492 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. PS3537.T82 R53 1906 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0365 Title A name given to the resource Richard Elliott, Financier Description An account of the resource Binding of Richard Elliott, Financier, by George Carling, published by L.C. Page and Company, 1906. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1906 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b6a635ab2dfd6f5046b3dd5c4310e447.mp4 cc09890d51a0b38e57b42dab60a8acb8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12eb6f940205cc7664f037b084a39445.pdf e3b41bea686fbef9dae004be762cf2f2 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Richard (Dick) Gottlieb Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 2 [Gottlieb] Here we are being informal, yes. [Barbara] Are we still rolling? [Unknown] Yes. [Julie] Um yeah, I was just wondering Barb… [Barbara] Okay, just a minute. [Unknown] Stop tape. [Julie] Of the kind of subject matter that you were teaching and not having this power to… [Gottlieb] Yeah, let’s see if she asks about that. [Barbara] Well, I am asking. Yes, please tell me what you guys are saying. [Gottlieb] Yeah. Teaching therapeutic process in a college classroom leads to certain kinds of reactions in students, lots of powerful reactions in students. And as long as there was institutional support for that to happen, as long as a student who would be upset by the material that is talked about in class, like, if we're talking about psychosis and a student either has a relative or they themselves have been severely disturbed, it brings it out. And as long as you have institutional support, you can teach it, and the student goes through that experience of stress, and realizes that they can survive and still learn about this material and not have to be crazy. If there isn't institutional support, then you get, yeah, you get crazy reactions. You get the craziness acted out. And I don't know if examples are a good idea, but probably not. [Barbara] Well, could you tell me what you mean by institutional support, because it just sounds like… [Gottlieb] Well, if a student is upset by something that happens in class and they talk to other faculty or they talk to the administration of the college and the message �they get is: "That's a serious issue, take it to the faculty and work it out.” I'm here, you want me to help, fine. But that's a serious educational question, take it back to your faculty. But if what they get is, "Oh, God, that sounds horrible! Write that down and complain about it," then what you have is students demanding to be comfortable in class and my experience is that teaching psychology or psychotherapy – specifically psychotherapy – you can't be comfortable and learn. You just can't be comfortable. The process of psychotherapy, even at the bachelor level, teaching psychotherapy is teaching something that will be bringing on stress if its ever practiced and to teach it in a stress-free environment is impossible, in my view. [Barbara] So, you did… you were able to teach it with institution support for a while? [Gottlieb] Yep, for long while. And when that changed was when the deans changed. There was not a sudden shift, it was a shift that flowed. It flowed in the direction away from support of faculty, in my experience, in the direction of making students experience Chevrolet-like. Acceptable to a wide range of students and… let me finish my thought. Acceptable to a wide range of students and not bothering anybody ever. And the sparkle went out in my view of the college at that point. What Julie? What? What? [Barbara] If you want to say something, say it loudly so the mic picks it up. [Julie] Well, it seems like a reflection of a conflict in the society, generally, about who should be doing what kind of work. People were saying that this kind of material shouldn't be taught on the bachelor level at all, but we’re reaching students now doing treatment throughout the city and facilities that hire bachelor level people to work directly with clients who are severely disturbed, but they're… [Gottlieb] Do you want me to say that? Or something about it? [Barbara] Yeah, use it. [Gottlieb] Okay. That's disgusting. [Barbara] That time we got it. [Gottlieb] Well, what you were just saying is whether or not it's legitimate to be teaching bachelor level people about psychotherapy and I think our experience in the last ten years in mental health indicates that it clearly is because bachelor level people provide therapeutic services all over. And increasingly do so. [Barbara] So why the change? Was it a decision on somebody's part or was it personalities or what? �[Gottlieb] No, I don't think it was personalities or a decision about whether or not to support. I think it was a decision at high administrative levels on the campus, that it was time Grand Valley State Colleges (newly called College) shall henceforth not piss anybody off. And I think at all levels of teaching that philosophy infected us. William James, I don't think, raised people's anxieties terribly much as a college, except people who were bothered by what seemed to be the enjoyment people had in their mission. And I think that kind of anxiety was untenable in the new Grand Valley, which was a place where nobody was supposed to be tense about anything. Everybody should be kind of copacetic. And they had undone Thomas Jefferson, and they had undone any sense of accomplishment – experimental accomplishment – on the campus. And everybody was trying to look as gray as possible so that nobody would take them out of the picture. And William James couldn't quite look gray enough and I think that's why it was closed. [Barbara] Um… [Gottlieb] So what I've just outlined is a kind of progression from the question I had to face there in teaching courses which encouraged nervousness to a college which encouraged nervousness. And there were advantages to being at William James and there were disadvantages to being at James and there were advantages to being in my class and disadvantages. And I think that in the five years I worked there until there was this shift I'm describing, I think I was getting to be a much better teacher. I think in the two years following that shift, I think I got to be a much worse teacher. [Barbara] That's my experience, okay. That's parallel to it exactly. Some people have said on tape that there were certain turning points in the history of the college which made it have to be closed and that one of the turning points was losing social work. Would you comment on that? [Gottlieb] Losing social work? When I was hired, I was asked to be the Director of the Social Work program and there were a lot of people at CAS… thank you Rich… a lot of people at CAS who were teaching in social work. So, I made the proposal that there should be co-chair with CAS, instead of just myself, and put that together and a woman, Ann Johnson [?] (she has long since disappeared) from CAS, and I became co-chair. The following term was shifted to CAS because that was seen as clearly duplicating services, somehow, that there were co-chair running the program. And or the following year, I guess, that was moved to CAS. The effect on the school, I thought, was minimal, actually. Professional education, as defined in the program, then moved to CAS, was limited and, I thought, bankrupt. �[Julie] We lost a lot of students because of the move. [Gottlieb] Yeah, but losing students isn't what caused the end of William James College. [Julie] No, not the end of William James College. [Gottlieb] That's what I'm commenting on. I don't think that Social Work going to the College of Arts and Sciences was at all a turning point for the school. I think we developed a social work curriculum within William James College that was really fine and… [Julie] The students didn't go to it? [Gottlieb] The students went to it! I don't know why you think students didn't go to it, my classes were filled. All of them, all the time. [Julie] Until the end? [Gottlieb] Julie, Social Work went to CAS in nineteen seventy-nine. Okay? We're talking two different stages here. When social work went to CAS, we sat up our own social work program, students came to it, it was fine; worked beautifully. The problem was that we were then being disallowed to be teaching some of the courses because that was, again, duplication. It was not simple to… it wasn't simple enough somehow to have two colleges teaching courses that had the same… somewhat similar content, anyway. And our students were being told not to take courses at William James. They were being told to take courses at CAS. It was not moving of the social work program; it was, I think, again, the administrative response which told students that William James was not the place to get their education. They were telling students who were currently enrolled, and they were telling incoming students. Just… testimonials don't mean diddley squat, but one student who came to me and said: "I came to the admissions office. I asked for a school that didn't give grades, I asked for a school that had a community in it, I asked for a school where you individually set up your own curriculum, and they sent me to CAS." And that was going on all over the place. I think movement of Social Work was symptomatic of that. I don't think it mattered… made any difference. [Barbara] I ask you to please summarize the essence of William James college very briefly. Like one or two sentences. [Gottlieb] Bob Burns, Robert Mayberry, Stephen Rowe, Margaret Proctor, Barry Castro, Wil Walko, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. [Barbara] Okay, no two people – I ask this question to everyone – no two people have �given anything remotely resembling the same answer, which is wonderful. Whether it be… [Inaudible]. Why did you come to James? I don't mean your personal history; I mean, what was there for you? [Gottlieb] Julie and I were invited to interview. They wanted social workers. We were living in Detroit, and what we saw when we came here was a group of people… one of the people who interviewed us had his zipper down, couldn't uh…[laughter] and we found a group of people who were excited about something and I was working in a hospital at the time. Julie was not working, but we were both committed to the provision of services, and here was an opportunity to impact other people who might be providing service in the future. And I think we just got very excited by the kind of contagious quality of the place. What it had to offer us? A chance to do something meaningful. [Barbara] What do you miss? [Gottlieb] The most amazing thing is what I don't miss… about the campus. It's the only place I've ever been in – only physical environment I've ever been in – where after seven years (that's a long time), I had no attachment to the physical environment at all. Nothing. There wasn't a corner that I remembered fondly, or a stairwell that I remember sitting on. The place was so well designed as to be totally unattachable. It was wonderful, it was a marvelous place. What do I miss? I miss teaching. And so I don't exactly miss the students, I don't exactly miss the faculty, and I don't exactly miss classes but I miss teaching and that's all part of that. I liked teaching, and so that feels like a real loss. I still see a lot of people who were the faculty, and I still see a lot of people, actually, who were the students. Or people who might have been students. It was a quiet community. That's all I miss. A lot of things I don't miss. The sense of deterioration, the sense of being co-opted, piece by piece. A little chunk here, a little number there. Let's just change that rule. Let's just move that piece of… I hated it. You agree? [Barbara] Let us stop for a minute. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_53_Gottlieb Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gottlieb, Richard Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Richard Gottlieb interview (1 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Richard "Dick" Gottlieb by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Richard Gottlieb was a Social Work faculty member at William James College and a co-director of the Social Work program at Grand Valley. In this interview, Richard discusses the closing of William James College, the movement of the Social Work program to the College of Arts and Sciences, and the essence of William James. Richard's wife and fellow social worker, Julie Gottlieb, can be heard off camera while joining in on the conversation. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Richard Gottlieb. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Gottlieb, Julie Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Social work education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7e5af28cf911e0080196cafe42cf50d.jpg 93e5ee70f2e63ac46de98748a3cc490c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001407 Title A name given to the resource Richard Helmbrecht speaks at the F.E. Seidman Graduate College of Business opening ceremony Description An account of the resource Richard Helmbrecht of the Commerce Department speaks at the F.E. Seidman Graduate College of Business opening ceremony, February 20, 1975. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Grand Valley State College Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities & colleges-Michigan--Allendale Events Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975-02-20 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/731f56364125891941feb241cf61e5e8.jpg 39ff7c520c486a566c8c5f62661e6b8b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Theatre Photos Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Description An account of the resource Photographs of Grand Valley theater productions from the 1980s to the 2010s. Photos include shots of performances, backstage, casts and crewmembers. Included in the collection are Shakespeare Festival productions and small acts such as Bard to Go and the Greenshow. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright Grand Valley State University Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-2017 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01) Subject The topic of the resource Theater Performances Plays Musicals College Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives. Allendale, MI 49401 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01_2012F-Richard-III_012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Title A name given to the resource Richard III (theater production), 2012 Description An account of the resource Color photograph of Grand Valley's 2012 production of "Richard III." In this image two young punk men in leather jackets sit together. The backdrop of the set is a curtain graffitied with spray-paint. Subject The topic of the resource Theater College students Plays Performances Acting Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/754">Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives 2012s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4e86bd01cbb4b17efef3ea03e2e723fb.jpg d9c617862c1b81b5fe052f293cf967a4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Theatre Photos Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Description An account of the resource Photographs of Grand Valley theater productions from the 1980s to the 2010s. Photos include shots of performances, backstage, casts and crewmembers. Included in the collection are Shakespeare Festival productions and small acts such as Bard to Go and the Greenshow. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright Grand Valley State University Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-2017 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01) Subject The topic of the resource Theater Performances Plays Musicals College Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives. Allendale, MI 49401 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01_2012F-Richard-III_014 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Title A name given to the resource Richard III (theater production), 2012 Description An account of the resource Color photograph of Grand Valley's 2012 production of "Richard III." In this image a man in a wheelchair, wearing a gold crown and a broach on his cravat, speaks incredulously with a man in a top hat who stands leaning on a cane. Behind the wheelchair stand a young man in a tuxedo and three women in formal gowns. One of the woman also wears a crown. They look at one another with worried expressions. Subject The topic of the resource Theater College students Plays Performances Acting Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/754">Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives 2012s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b576b78cb7f6c37383efcf452d74309.jpg c9c643441ad7079c58730148d62c6df2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Theatre Photos Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Description An account of the resource Photographs of Grand Valley theater productions from the 1980s to the 2010s. Photos include shots of performances, backstage, casts and crewmembers. Included in the collection are Shakespeare Festival productions and small acts such as Bard to Go and the Greenshow. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright Grand Valley State University Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-2017 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01) Subject The topic of the resource Theater Performances Plays Musicals College Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives. Allendale, MI 49401 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01_2012F-Richard-III_018 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Title A name given to the resource Richard III (theater production), 2012 Description An account of the resource Color photograph of Grand Valley's 2012 production of "Richard III." In this image a boy in a formal suit kneels and speaks with a serious expression. Three adults in black surround him and listen attentively. One, with hands clasped piously around a bible, wears the robes of a cardinal. The backdrop of the set is a curtain graffitied with spray-paint. Subject The topic of the resource Theater College students Plays Performances Acting Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/754">Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives 2012s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ec103361f5d2f4f6dbafa5aa8f2173c.jpg 6eabc1b09ee79c0298688868e635f12b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Theatre Photos Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Description An account of the resource Photographs of Grand Valley theater productions from the 1980s to the 2010s. Photos include shots of performances, backstage, casts and crewmembers. Included in the collection are Shakespeare Festival productions and small acts such as Bard to Go and the Greenshow. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright Grand Valley State University Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-2017 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01) Subject The topic of the resource Theater Performances Plays Musicals College Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives. Allendale, MI 49401 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01_2012F-Richard-III_020 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Title A name given to the resource Richard III (theater production), 2012 Description An account of the resource Color photograph of Grand Valley's 2012 production of "Richard III." In this image a boy in a formal suit sits surrounded by three adults in black. He listens as one, an old man with a brace on his leg, speaks emphatically. Beside him a servant kneels holding a platter of fruit, and behind him stands a cardinal with hands clasped piously. The set mimics an old factory, with tall iron beams and graffitied walls. Subject The topic of the resource Theater College students Plays Performances Acting Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/754">Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives 2012s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/411c3ed2cc4b502f3a786188bfa21033.jpg de3308ab0b4997c51a43c43cd3e36a9a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Theatre Photos Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Description An account of the resource Photographs of Grand Valley theater productions from the 1980s to the 2010s. Photos include shots of performances, backstage, casts and crewmembers. Included in the collection are Shakespeare Festival productions and small acts such as Bard to Go and the Greenshow. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright Grand Valley State University Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-2017 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01) Subject The topic of the resource Theater Performances Plays Musicals College Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives. Allendale, MI 49401 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01_2012F-Richard-III_030 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Title A name given to the resource Richard III (theater production), 2012 Description An account of the resource Color photograph of Grand Valley's 2012 production of "Richard III." In this image a group of devout peasants gather behind a man, who spreads his arms wide as if to keep the crowd at bay. Many clutch faith pamphlets, and look on in shock and concern. Subject The topic of the resource Theater College students Plays Performances Acting Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/754">Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives 2012s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/68bf8be6d0aa05d2d15395ef04ef91b5.jpg c9797875f2cde50217329fddd874c9ee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Theatre Photos Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Description An account of the resource Photographs of Grand Valley theater productions from the 1980s to the 2010s. Photos include shots of performances, backstage, casts and crewmembers. Included in the collection are Shakespeare Festival productions and small acts such as Bard to Go and the Greenshow. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright Grand Valley State University Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-2017 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01) Subject The topic of the resource Theater Performances Plays Musicals College Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives. Allendale, MI 49401 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01_2012F-Richard-III_033 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Title A name given to the resource Richard III (theater production), 2012 Description An account of the resource Color photograph of Grand Valley's 2012 production of "Richard III." In this image a woman in a white gown and wearing a jeweled crown sits slumped on a throne. Beside her an old man in a crown, and wearing a brace on his leg, leans forward and strokes her chin. She looks back at him with disgust. On the right a servant in a tuxedo smiles down at the two of them. The set mimics an old factory, with tall iron beams and graffitied walls. Subject The topic of the resource Theater College students Plays Performances Acting Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/754">Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives 2012s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/86074299cad949a3b475c7913dd03c91.jpg 376c294f8fc62d268ecbe651f5fc5ddb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Theatre Photos Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Description An account of the resource Photographs of Grand Valley theater productions from the 1980s to the 2010s. Photos include shots of performances, backstage, casts and crewmembers. Included in the collection are Shakespeare Festival productions and small acts such as Bard to Go and the Greenshow. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright Grand Valley State University Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-2017 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01) Subject The topic of the resource Theater Performances Plays Musicals College Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives. Allendale, MI 49401 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV058-01_2012F-Richard-III_034 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Theatre Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Title A name given to the resource Richard III (theater production), 2012 Description An account of the resource Color photograph of Grand Valley's 2012 production of "Richard III." In this image an old man in a crown and leg brace holds a knife to the neck of a gangster on his knees. Subject The topic of the resource Theater College students Plays Performances Acting Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/754">Theatre Department photographs (GV058-01)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives 2012s