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                <text>Puja is a religious ritual practiced in many Indian homes, including mine as an Indian living in America. In this ritual, lamps are lit as an offering to the divine. The light from the lamp symbolizes knowledge and the power of the sacred, while the wick represents the ego, and the oil signifies our negative tendencies. When lit by spiritual knowledge, these negative tendencies are gradually eliminated, and the ego eventually perishes. There are various ways of performing puja: light lamps in front of a deity, some in front of the Tulasi plant, and some light lamps at dawn and dusk. The type of oil and wick used also holds significance. For instance, cow's ghee ensures radiance, prosperity, health, and happiness. Similarly, a cotton wick brings prosperity and all good fortune. The chanting of slokas or hymns also accompanies the lighting of the lamp. The shloka "Subham Karoti Kalyanam, Arogyam Dhana Sampadah, Shatru Buddhi Vinashaya, Deepa Jyotir Namostute" is commonly chanted while lighting the lamp, seeking the divine's blessings for prosperity, good health, and the destruction of opposing forces.</text>
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                <text>Through Interfaith Photovoice, I was part of many conversations about belonging. Where do I belong or have a home? Lenten bouquets are not an official tradition within the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Christian tradition that I practice, but the color purple is liturgically the color for the time of Lent. While I have been so rooted and comforted to know and believe I belong within my faith and God, that I have a home in those spaces, it occurred to me that I might also make a space for God to have a home within me and my space.</text>
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                <text>This photograph captures a moment of tranquility within one of the Interfaith Reflection Rooms at GVSU, where individuals from diverse backgrounds come together to pray. In Islam, prayer, being the second pillar of the faith, holds significant importance. Muslims adhere to a disciplined practice of praying five times a day, each within specific time windows. There are 17 obligatory units of Salah spread throughout these five daily prayers, and each unit consists of two sajdah (prostrations). This image not only signifies the personal devotion of individuals but also highlights the inclusive environment fostered by the university, providing a space for spiritual reflection and connection regardless of one's faith tradition. For me, Salah (prayer) is a profound experience where I feel deeply connected to God. It's a time when I am away from all worldly tensions, allowing me to find peace and solace for my soul. Each prostration (sajdah) during prayer brings immense benefits, including physical relaxation, mental clarity, and spiritual elevation. It's a moment of submission and humility before the Divine, offering a sense of renewal and inner tranquility that carries me through the challenges of daily life.</text>
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                    <text>Ir. "· {jtnrgt 1Jfnx
RABBI SOUTH SHORE TEMPLE
7215 )BFFBRY AVBNUB
l'HONB FAIRFAX

3275-6

CHICAGO 49

Nov . 11, 1948.

Mr. Fred Rodoff,
119 ,I._ Western Av.,
Muslfgon, Mich·.
Dear Mr. Rodoff:
Thank you for the invituticr- t o the dedication
and the tickets to the dinner.

\

We shall not be able to share the happy occasion
w1 th

you, but of course you know that our hearts a.re ,tith

you.
Thanking you again,
Cordially
GGF:L

�November 19, 1948

Past presidents:
Prior to 1938

_

Henry Rubinslcy

Isaac Grossman

(Well to make mention of these)

Subsequent to 1938 -

Milton Steindler
Samuel Gluck
Leo s. Rosen
Samuel Lipnan
Samuel K1.ayf

I!JliJ ding Committee:
Co-Chairmen -

J. M. Kaufman

Members:

Hebert Fisher
~ l Klayf
Paul Wiener

-

Harold Rosen

�F1t01i P

rt

Pne;: 1

'r. Pr

1d.cnt, Rnbb1 Un n, Ouoot

In behnlf or tho offiooro and
on th1

Fri ndo, a.nd l 1 oober :

I

ob roof th Bn 1 Ior el Con..~ ot1on
Sohool and 1..1brnry, l t

l lcriou

our day of Dod1o tion of our

no bta you voloooe.

w
0

1th uo to celebrate th1

o.ro happy you ar
h

V

lonn-

OOr.l

wt

ny .

un loolt bo.o

joyoua ooono1on.
ap:o,

n'bout 40 y

n h~n ful of Jcwo, thoro uero not rony f ~ll1 oh r

hen

at that t1n • cot

o.t enoh othorn honoc , o.nd froc thoro to a ooo.11 Syna. ,ori'llo on Mua • gon
hloh 2S yoar

venue,

'!O

aci n I ride to th

old. r folk , ond- no

our

,n1f cont Tenplc, lo r llY h re .
drcan, th1o
The pact hno R1vcn un tr d1t on, h1oh \ revere; it ho ,::1ven uo
fr

nd,

hon u

lv n uo o nloo ole n olty ,

chcr h; lt hnc

ut noot of nll , our pa t boa ~1von uo ch ract r

nJoy.

lool· 1nto th

futur •

hloh

nd ctr n~th to

\t_J s?

The tutur of tho To• l lo 1
o lonf!

elf r

wo lorn to b

of our follo

honC'lrnblo in our 6n1ly 11.voo , loo· to th

t\r?o to good dv ntor;o th\.o Teeple
Thi

Tonpl

b on bu1lt tor us

lone that

m-ondch110ron that thy nay
1h1lo cvoryon

1n th1

thlo ~1f1cc , and nll h v

n
oula b

nd uo

our

1.11 rro pr 1n our oon~n1ty .

1o built ln honor of Oo~ Al~1(?hty , 1n c

thooc who ltrv 11vod here , and

p uo

th prop r r ver~no •

on , ~ ve our Lo

to tholr Juot r w rO .

017 of oll
Ith o not

oelf1oh, but for our oh1ldron

nd

nJoy 1tn bl oo1nga .
v1o1n1cy hao haO ah nd ln h lpl n

1v n f r

and o 11 nttent on to on

r ly

to build

of tho1r tlr.10. nm'l oonoy • w muet

1·o too,. tho 1

d

no

o:

1 t through.

�He ho.s hnd nnny re tles
bu 1neee; he ho.

opent thousands of dollar

trips to different c1t1es.

besides you
Temple.

n1ghto nnd m ny llo.ye to.ten woy from hie
for long d1ct nee oalle,

Th1s r.ioney came out of h1o o n pocJcot, nnd

111 find h1s name as one of the lnr e contributors to th1e

We truly

010

n de p debt of

r titude to Leo Rooen.

Leo dee~rven the henrt-relt th nk

of every nm:iber, 1n br1ng1np; th1e

bu1ld1n~ to co~plet1on .

no

"LJe have adeC'u te f c111t1e~ for our sp1r1tunl , cultural , and

coc1 l life .

1th our dream fulfilled men, womon, and children can con-

reg te 1n 1rayer
---In tho

1th1n our rn gn1f1oent Temple .

me tone

or

benuty end dignity

1th which our Temple hne

b en planned, nnd furn1nhed, so are our eerv1oec

nd rP11glou

echool

conducted u~der R bb1 8 mucl Ur.ien. ·
Rnbb1 Unen ie a f1ne rPeourA ful Je tsh schol r ,

nd one

horn

c

cnn proudly ter~ as the Spiritual Leader of our Congr gt on.
For our brief ncqu 1ntnnoe w1th hie, one cannot fn11 to reco~n1ze
h1o undernt nd1ng of pc.et Je 1 h h1Rtory,and !')r
1e

ent world trendc.

hould congradul te ouroelver, ond our co~mitteea 1n securing

Bnbb1 Unen'n cervloeo .

He 1111 go place

not only by our people, but by all who kno

1n Muo-er;on and
hin.

111 be

drn1red,

�PROGRAM FOR THE
DEDICATION OF SCHOOL AND LIBRARY

OF

TEMPLE B'NAI ISRAEL
SUnday November 14, 1948 J:15 P.U..
1.

2.

llATIONAL ANTHEM

INVOCATION
J. .GREETINGS

4. READING
5. THE RELIGIOUS SCHOOL
6. PSALM
1. SERMON
8. SEU SHORIM
9. POEM ON LIBRARIES
f;\

1J.
11.
12.
13.

lh.

15.

16.
17.

18.

MESSAGE
SRMA
PRAYER FOR GOVERNMENT OF
UNITED STATES
IN MEMORIAM
EL MOLE ROCHAMIM
KADDISH
ADON OLAN
BENEDICTION
MAY THE WORDS

CHOIR AND AUDIENCE
RABBI SAMUEL UMEN
MILTON STEINDLER
Chairman
MAX ROSENBERG
Pres. Zionist Organization
JEAN BERMAN
Religious School Principal
ELAINE PAGE
RABBI SAMUEL OMEN
CHOIR
MRS. EDWARD KRAUSE
CLIFFORD WHIGHTMAN -Chief Librarian- Hackley
Library.
CHOIR
HORTENSE BERMAN
SISTERHOOD PRESIDENT
MILTON STEINDLER
RABBI SAMUEL UMEN
CHOIR
CHOIR
RABBI SAMUEL UMEN
CHO+R

�TEMPLE B'NAI ISRAEL
Muskegon, Michigan

Dedication Week
ABRAHAM ROSEN LODGE NO. 818, B'NAI B'RITH
Sponsor and Host for
OPEN HOUSE AND MINISTERS' NIGHT
. Tuesday Evening

Eight O'clock

November 16, 1948

PROGRAM
Presiding Chairman ...................... Edward H. Krause
Program Chairman ............ ............. Samuel Lawson
Presentation of Colors
Color Guard ................................................ .
. . . . Abe Berman, Jack Steindler, Morton, Fogel, Sam Schumacher
National Anthem ..................................... Audience
Pledge of Allegiance .................................. Audience
Invocation .................................. Rev. George A. Mooers
Greetings to Guests ............................... Edward H. Krause
President of Congregation ................................ Leo Rosen
Rabbi of Congregation ............... ....... ... Rabbi Samuel Umen
Response .................................... Rev. Glenn M. Sauder
Main Speaker .............................. Dr. Duncan E. Littlefair

Benediction .................................... Rev. Samuel Oliver
Organist - Hubert Baker

MOVIE - "THIS IS B'NAI B'RITH"

RECREATION ROOM

REFRESHMENTS
TOUR OF BUILDING

�</text>
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                  <text>The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries.</text>
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                    <text>Remember Me Where My Heart Dwells
Memorial Day Weekend
Text: Psalm 84:2; I Corinthians 5:35-36; John 19:40
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
May 28, 2000
Transcription of the spoken sermon
Memorial Day Weekend, a weekend in which we remember those that we have
loved and lost a while. It is a civil holiday and, along with Thanksgiving, perhaps
the civil holiday that has the deepest spiritual significance, a time to honor those
who paid the supreme sacrifice to preserve our liberty and to keep our freedoms
alive, and then from that, the custom generally of remembering those who have
gone before us, of visiting cemeteries and adorning graves with flowers, a time to
pause, a time to remember, a time to grieve and a time to give thanks.
I remember vividly my first visit to a military cemetery. It was in the spring of
1984 in a little Dutch village toward Arnam. It was a British military cemetery
and I think the village was Osterbaan. We visited a war museum there, and then
we walked across to the cemetery. As I said, it was spring and the shrubs were
absolutely splendid, and the cemetery was so obviously kept meticulously, with
great care. I had never been struck before in the environment of a cemetery, but
here I was deeply moved, I think for the first time existentially, to look across the
field of crosses and stars of David, the names of primarily young men, the dates
of birth and the dates of death indicating the brevity of life and the horrible cost
of war and the price of preserving freedom and beating back the demonic
darkness. It was a deeply moving experience; it was a spiritual experience; it was
one of those moments along my pilgrimage way that I can remember that I really
felt something very deep.
In 1995, Nancy and I led some pilgrims over to Europe and there outside
Cambridge, England, there is an American military cemetery. Again, one simply
cannot come upon that scene without being moved. A field of crosses or stars of
David in orderly rows, and name after name after name of the youth of the
nation. A beautiful memorial wall, a striking chapel, and once again I felt how we
have honored our dead. There has been that tradition; there have been those who
have seen to it that those who paid that supreme sacrifice are not forgotten, and
the very way in which it is all kept speaks of the dignity of the human spirit.
Going to Normandy 50 years after the invasion, stepping on the beaches and
looking on the cliffs, seemingly impossible to scale, set with concrete bunkers that
© Grand Valley State University

	&#13;  

�Remember Me Where My Heart Dwells

Richard A. Rhem

Page 2	&#13;  

seemed impenetrable with their huge guns facing out to sea, then moving up into
the American cemetery there, one again feels the tremendous cost in which that
battle was won that turned the tide of the war.
Well, those experiences for me, I must admit, were the experiences that
imprinted deeply upon my consciousness the importance of the dignified
honoring of the dead, and of having an appropriate setting in which to remember,
to grieve, and through memory to feel the connections once again, and to let the
love of those we have loved and lost well up within us.
The year 1984 was a significant year for me; it was the year of sabbatical, the first
six months of that year, the first three months of which we spent in Schenectady
where I was the theologian-in-residence in this great, old First Church in
downtown Schenectady, and it was there that I was introduced for the first time
to a Columbarium. Within that grand old building there was a room set aside,
chapel-like, with a table and a candle and an open Bible, and one wall in which
there were niches in which were the urns of those whose cremains were being
kept. A sacred place in which the people of the congregation could come, sit,
meditate, pray and remember, and could experience again the connectedness
with those they'd loved and lost. In 1984 I came back in the fall to take up the
task here once again and one of the things we did as a kind of exercise in renewal
was to constitute eleven task forces in all aspects of our community life. One task
force, at my instigation, was a task force to study the viability of creating our own
columbarium. The conclusion of that task force at that time was not yet, not now.
It may have had something to do with the fact that we included the local
undertaker on the committee, I don't know. But, columbaria involve cremation,
and in 1984 that was not as common as it is now. It is becoming a more common
practice, for various reasons, reasons of space, ecology, economic considerations,
and more. But, in any case, I think that it is time for us once again to have that
option open to those for whom that is an appealing place in which to remember
their loved ones.
I entitle this message, "Remember Me Where My Heart Dwells," because it is
very much my own personal perspective. Burial customs are a part of every
culture and every society, and there are those who say that burial customs are the
last customs that a people will change, it is so primal. It is written so deeply into
our past. In traditional communities, there are ways that this is done that are
simply taken for granted, as though that's just the way it is and the way it ought
to be. I read that little section in the Gospel of John, the burial of Jesus. Whether
the story was intended to be literal or symbolic is beside the point. I read it for
that little phrase, "... according to the burial custom of the Jews," because every
people have had certain rituals of death, certain burial customs, and this is not a
matter of some absolute truth. It is not a matter of right or wrong. It has
everything to do with a personal perspective or with a personal inclination. And
so, on this Memorial Day Weekend which is a Memorial Day which doesn't have
to share place with Pentecost, which happens sometimes, or Baccalaureate, which

© Grand Valley State University

�Remember Me Where My Heart Dwells

Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

happens other times, but rather is a weekend which stands alone, I thought it
would be the right time for us simply to think together about one more option
that is available to us as we deal with death and dying with dignity and with
honor.
There is, as I said, no right way to do this. When I began in the ministry, I used to
conduct a funeral service with an open casket in the front, which I haven't seen
for a long, long time. Those customs do gradually change. If we were an Episcopal
congregation, the casket would be led in procession by the cross with the clergy
reciting resurrection texts, a very nice ritual, actually. We have in this
congregation a funeral pall which is a vestment cloth that goes over the casket,
which I don't know whether we have used yet, just because when it comes to that
moment, we haven't gotten into that kind of rhythm, but it's a very, very good
custom because it puts a sameness on every casket, whether it is mahogany or
brass or pinewood box, and a beautiful symbol of our leveling before the face of
God.
Whatever the customs of a particular community may be, if they are done with
dignity and meaning and if they communicate that to those who are grieving,
then they are good and they are right. But there is one word that I ought to
address to this matter of cremation because it is my impression that early on it
may have been practiced by those who were intending to deny the resurrection of
the body. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. I'm sure that it was true that
the Church reacted to cremation, sensing perhaps that it was a denial of the
resurrection of the body.
Paul's chapter on the resurrection, I Corinthians 15, ought to dispel any problem
with the matter of cremation, for in that rather involved and torturous discussion
of the 15th chapter, this much is clear - Paul arguing by analogy says that while
there is continuity, there is also discontinuity, and that which is buried is not that
which comes to life again, and it doesn't make one bit of difference whether the
corpse is laid in the ground or the ashes placed in an urn. According to Paul's
argument, you don't put a plant in the ground and expect that plant to come back.
A plant bears seed, the seed is buried, disintegrates, dies and from it comes a new
plant which is resurrection. He talks about a spiritual body, but how can you have
a spiritual body? He's stammering, of course, because he's talking about the
things about which we really don't know. But, what he was affirming was what he
says I think even better in Romans 14, "Whether we live, we live unto the Lord,
and whether we die, we die unto the Lord, so whether we live or whether we die,
we are the Lord's." And his resurrection faith and hope was based in his trust in
God who is the God of the living, the God who gives life and to whom we go when
our breath returns to the one who gave it. So, as far as the manner of dealing with
the body, it is a matter of indifference, a matter of personal preference, a matter
of choice, and I think we are seeing a movement more and more toward the
practice of cremation.

© Grand Valley State University

�Remember Me Where My Heart Dwells

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

Why here? Why in the environment of the Church? During that year, 1984, once
again Nancy and I made a little journey northward to Friesland, to the North Sea
seaport of Holwerd from which my mother's family immigrated, and in those
little villages in Friesland in The Netherlands, and generally in Europe, the
skyline is punctuated by grand bell towers. Driving into the village, making one's
way to that tower, one comes to the village church and there around the church,
mantling it, the old churchyard, was the cemetery which is the burial custom of
Europe for years. We made our way through the gilded fence and there almost
immediately I saw on the gravestones the names of my maternal grandparents,
van der Houde and Posthumas, and it gave me a sense of connectedness. It made
me realize how we are all bound together in the chain of the generations, bound
together in the bundle of life, bound together in the communion of the saints. The
old terminology was the Church militant and the Church triumphant, but, as a
matter of fact, all one.
It is not at all unusual here in the celebrations of baptisms or marriage or in the
solemnity of the funeral service to have three and sometimes even four
generations present, rarely five, with deep rootedness in this family of faith, this
concrete congregation. With the mobility of people in our day you may say, "Well,
there is no longer such a thing as the village church," and yet, I sense with our
youth going out and having their children, more and more they are coming back
here in their family sanctuary to the baptism of their children. Again, the title of
the message, "Remember Me Where My Heart Dwells." This is where my heart
dwells. This is where I have lived in community with you all these years. This is
where my children have been baptized; this is where my children have been
married, made their profession of faith, come back to have their children be
baptized. It is here that I have family beyond my family. It is here that I have
community, the bonds of love, and it seems to be that one of the finest, if the
final, service that the Church can offer is the environment for the remembrance
of those we have loved and lost a while. I have some logistics to work out and I
know it will create some special circumstances, but I envision having the whole
thing happen here - the visitation, service of worship, the gathering following,
and for those who so choose, the burial in the Columbarium in the shadow of the
Chapel, where one can come at any time to remember, to weep, to laugh and to
give God thanks for life enriched by deep bonds of human relationship that death
finally cannot break.
Joshua said to Israel on one occasion, "Choose you this day whom you will serve,
but as for me and my house, we'll serve the Lord." I would say to you, "Choose
that which feels right for you, but as for me and my house, remember us where
our heart dwells."

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Remembering Joseph Harry
A Prayer for the Jellema-Harter Gathering
Richard A. Rhem
The Season of Advent 2004

With full attention, awareness,
let us be conscious of our life, with breath, with spirit.
That consciousness has been present
from the beginning of the human story.
The ancient poet expressed it in words
borrowed by the biblical writer when he wrote of One
in whom “we live and move and have our being.”
In these moments we open our minds and hearts
to that Mystery breathing through us,
that Sacred Mystery before whom we stand in awe
as we remember we are children of the stars,
our being the emergence of a cosmic drama of billions of years
in an expanse of space we cannot fathom.
Humility befits us
that the sacred source of Being
should find expression in us,
that we should be the conscious bearers
of this incredible unfolding of Being.
Sometimes it is a glimpse
of the starry heavens in the dark stillness;
sometimes the glistening whiteness of new fallen snow
catching the sun’s radiance;
sometimes the rush of a love
that wells up from our depths;
sometimes it is a pain so overwhelming,
a grief so deep we can scarcely breathe,
a sadness that permeates every pore of our being.
This is such a time,
for we remember a life conceived in love,
anticipated with such joy and growing expectation,
a life as yet all mystery, full of potential,
this fragile child in the womb,
Joseph Harry.
© Grand Valley State University

	&#13;  

�Remembering Joseph Harry

Richard A. Rhem

At such a time, time stands still
and we become aware as never before
of the mystery of Being from which our lives emerge.
And those ultimate questions rise within us –
Who am I?
Why am I here?
What is my life?
What is the end of it all?
Questions out of the depths,
questions not reducible
to mathematical equation or scientific formula;
questions without verifiable answers;
questions not to be answered so much as to be lifted up,
to be contemplated.
Is not our life a question you put to us, O God?
And daily, weekly, monthly,
as seasons come and go,
we are living out our answers.
Sometimes it seems we can begin to shape an answer;
sometimes we simply must admit we haven’t a clue;
sometimes our faith shines brightly
and we have a kind of settled serenity about us;
and sometimes the pieces of the puzzle
we painstakingly fit together
are scattered again, revealing no rhyme or reason.
God of all mercy, God of all grace,
it is as natural as breathing
that we turn in these moments to you.
Where else?
To whom else should we turn?
We come to the limit of our understanding;
we come to the limit of our capacity to make sense
of this fragile and vulnerable drama that we live.
We do not know; we do not comprehend;
our minds shut down, weary of thinking.
We turn to you –
not for cliché, some pious platitude
that trips too easily off the tongue.

© Grand Valley State University

Page 2	&#13;  

�Remembering Joseph Harry

Richard A. Rhem

No, dear God, we turn to you
because we can live without all the answers,
if only we sense that in the darkness and the pain
we are not abandoned, not alone,
if only we sense your presence and your grace,
your compassion and your care
in the concrete community of human bonds of love.
Here we are, deep Mystery of Being,
becoming conscious in your presence.
We trust, even though we know so little.
We trust in your gracious grasp
of the disparate strands of our lives
because we keep encountering rumors of angels,
moments of clarity, flashes of insight,
experiences of deep love and grace
beyond anything we could arrange.
In this season of Advent, we wait,
wait in expectation.
Mystery beyond our capacity to comprehend,
grant to these who grieve
an Epiphany of transcendence
as they gather to embrace one another
in love and solidarity.
Heal hearts so recently resonant with expectation
and mantle them– parents, grandparents, friends – with peace,
assuring them that
all will be well;
all will be well;
all manner of things will be well –
for Alles is Gnade – All is Grace.
Amen.

© Grand Valley State University

Page 3	&#13;  

�Remembering Joseph Harry

Richard A. Rhem

Page two

© Grand Valley State University

Page 4	&#13;  

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                <text>A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on February 29, 2004 entitled "Remembering The Way He Was", as part of the series "Remembering Jesus, Experiencing God", on the occasion of Lent I, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Luke 22:14-23.</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>I REMEMBERING THOSE WHO RESCUED JEWS FROM NAZIS

WILLIAM ARCHIE/Detroit Free Press

Holocaust survivors Abraham Foxman and Gisele Feldman reminisce Monday at the Anti-Defamation
League of B'nai B'rith in Southfield over photos of relatives who died at Auschwitz. Tonight Foxman and
Jewish Foundation for Christian Rescuers supporters will mark the creation of a state chapter and honor
two families: the Termaats of Grand Rapids and the Chorazyczewskis of Hamtramck. Story, Page lB.

�</text>
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&#13;
Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II.</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719"&gt;Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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&#13;
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514"&gt;Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                  <text>Kaufman Interfaith Institute</text>
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                  <text>1981-2014</text>
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                <text>Remembering: The Foundation of Hope</text>
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                    <text>I /

REMEMBERANCE SERVICE

II

NATIONAL HOLOCAUST DAY" IN CONGREGATION AHAVAS ISRAEL,

GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN on APRIL 10, 1983.
"Rabbi Lewis, Rabbi Weingarten, Distinguished Guests, Friends:
First of all I want to thank the Men's Club of the Congregation of Ahavas Israel
for inviting our group of Dutch people, to be here with you on National Holocaust
Day.
I speak for all of us, when I say that we are very honored and deeply touched,
that so long after the war, you Friends here in a country far away from where we
helped our Jewish friends, asked us to share this with you.
Personally I am deeply moved by your Cantor, remembering my fiancee Hein Sietsma
and his friend, Albert van Meerveld, the leaders of my group, who gave their lives
in Dachau and Oranienburg.
Holocaust Day.

A day, which for all of us brings painful memories, which maybe we

rather would forget and block from our memories. But, how much it hurts, this may
NEVER be forgotten and we,who lived during that time)HAVE to tell it, especially to
the younger generation, so that it will never happen again, but on this my friend
Pieter Termaat will speak.
I want to say a few words on "Why we did it".
Although our group only mtt each other recently in Washington, I know that we all
helped for the same reason.
Rabbi Si gal wrote recently his fine article in the Press on the Pasover_
., and he wrote:
11

The call of theology is for ACTION. Then he mentioned some parts of the beautiful

book of Isaiah, and also a verse from the New Testament book of John, which reads:
11

If you say you know Him and do not obey His

commandments, you are a liar.

11
•

That is s6 true and we have to keep this in mind, for many horrible things are done
in the name of religion and Christianity. After all, we know that Hitler himself was
a so~called Catholic. He surely did not obey God's commandments and therefore he had
no right to use that Name.
We were also taught the Old Testament: God's love for the people He chose from
-2-

�2)

among all the nations on earth, His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
In Genesis God says to Abraham:" I will bless those who bless you and whoever
curses you will be cursed and all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you".
We as Christians take this, that we are blessed through the Jewish people. They
gave us so much, as w~ believe : Jesus~and also through the Jewish people we

have

~

God's pr-ecious Word, which was our only strength during that horrible time.
Therefore, when the war broke out, and believing all this, we just HAD to help. We
said we knew Him and wanted to obey His commandments, which are:"Love thy God and
they neighbor as thyself . II __
When Hitler started his unspeakable cruelty and the Jews had to r-eport for an
unknown fate, with just one little suitcase, we were shocked. We did not yet kn6w
what would happen to them. Many believed that it would not be all that bad, but those
among us who had their eyes open, recognized the terrible evil and danger of the
Nazi teachings and among those were my friends Hein and Albert. They started right
away with whatever they could do.
Soon I found out how it is, when you need a hiding place and you cannot find
one: Six months after the German invasion, the Gestapo came already to arrest Hein,
who, thank God, was not home. He was warned, phoned my parents house to warn us,
for most probably, the Gestapo would come there also for him, but, we had to find a
place for Hein before the 11 p.m. curfew.
I was born and raised in the Hague, we had so many wonderful Christian friends
there, so~confidently I hopped on my bike and started around 6 p.m . I remember how
after hours and hours of asking everywhere, without results, with tears streaming
down my cheeks there on my bike, I prayed, that God would provide a place for Hein
,

and I made then and there a vow, that if I ever could help people in the same circumstances, I would do whatever I could.

And ... as a young girl, I was quite disap-

pointed in my Christi'an friends who showed such a weak faith. I found a place just
before 11 p.m.
-3-

�3)

A year later, when Hitler ordered the Jews to report for

11

relocation 11 , I remembered

my vow. We found a place on a farm for a young Jewish friend of ours and two weeks
later we had a list of 60 of his relatives and friends, and the list grew and grew,
till far past hundred.
I am sure that my friends here in a similar way became involved.
For the Christians, helping with this work&gt;the Psalms of David became so very precious:" The Lord is my Light and my Salvation, Whom shall I fear?" We had to remind
ours~lves of this, for often we were scared!
After thr~e years, we were betrayed, the Gestapo came to my parents house and
they knisw that we knew about the monthly attaches on German offices, where every
month thousands of ration cards and blank identifi~ation cards were stolen. They
wanted us. It was very serio~s and the Gestapo kept on coming to my parents house
every 2-3 weeks till the end of the war, but of course we never went home again!
We had to take false names, false papers. We had our wedding l ic.ense and my
wedding dress was hanging in the closet, but we could not get married for the
Gestapo kept their eyes on our families .

.

My work was to take care of all our Jewish friends in a certain part of the
country: bring them mail, rat.ion cards and, when an address was in danger, to find
a new place and bring them there.
I walked and biked from village to village and often felt like David, when
King Saul was after him.David wrote many psalms during that time and they became so
alive to me! Like Tevye, in,,Fiddler on the Roof: I often had conversations with God
during my walks and reminded Him of His promises: How wf break all ours, but that
He never can break His, for He is holy!
A year later the Gestapo caught Hein first and 2 weeks later me for unrelated
)

things. While they had me in their claws on my false name, they were still searching
for me on my real name at home!
-4-

�I was terrible scared that they would find out whom I really was and that they fi/

nally had me. That would have been the end of me. And then I thought of the beautiful
story in the book of Kings, where the prophet Elisha prayed, when the enemy army of
the king of Aram came to arrest him: 11 God blind their eyes", and God DID.
I prayed and said daily:" Lord, You are the same from eternity, please do for me
now, what You did thousands of years ago for Elisha, blind their eyes", and God DID.
I dreaded the hearing, which I knew would surely come and thought that I would
be paralized with fear. In prison I had scraped in the bricks of the wall with my
bobby pin the words of Jesus: 11 Lo, -I am with you, al ways 11 • And when I was ca 11 ed
and brought before 7 clean, well-fed Gestapo officers

behind a large table, playing

with their revolvers to intimidate me, instead of being scared,a great calm came
over me and I remembered the words of David's Psalm:" If God had not been on our
side, says Israel, they would have swallowed us alive". I KNEW He was on our side
and what could these men, who thought that they had my fate in their hands then
really do? I knew I was in His Fatherhand!
Although I am fluent in German, I also had said when they invadedJthat I never
would speak Gennan, till they had left our country, and during all these months,
everything they said to me had to be translated. For I shrugged my shoulders, looked
stupid and said that I could not understand them. During the hearing, although there
was an interpreter, I understood every word they said. When, among other questions,
they asked my religion and I told them "Christian Reformed" one of them said:" Schon
wieder einde von diesen!" He said it really with contempt and scorn, but it made me
s6

I

happy for then I knew that in this camp there had to be many who were faithful

and obeyed the Master.
A miracle happened. I was let out a few days before this whole camp was brought .
to RavensbrUck, where many died.
You know now why we did it, and also, that all of us would do it again. we HAD to
-5-

�5)
Would I like to have missed this part of my life? Although very difficult, I would
NOT have missed it, because I KNOW now from experience that God keeps all His promises.
He has never promised His people an easy life, but He HAS promised, as to Isaiah: 11 I
will take you by the hand'~ And he DID.
Many people feel, when difficulties and problems come, that it is a kind of punishment and say: 11 What have I done to deserve this? 11 My life has not been easy, but I
like to think of God ·'s dear friend Job. Satan said to God: 11 No wonder he serves You,
he has everything he can wish for, but wait and see what happens if you take everything
-

I

away from him 11 • God was so sure of Job, that He allowed Satan to go ahead. Job lost
everything, his 10 children in one day, everything he had, even his health, and we
know what Job · said: ,The Lord has given, the Lord had taken, blessed be the name of
the Lord".
I have spoken for us who survived, that we never regret it and knew, we did the
right thing.
What about those who, after much suffering gave their lives?
My friend Albert smuggled some notes to his young wife and in his last one he wrote:
11

Remember Psalm 71, verse 3. Which reads: 11 Be Thou to me a Rock of refuge, a strong

Fortress to save me, for Thou art my Rock and Fortress 11 •
And Hein?

I knew he would never regret what he did, but I received a little note,

written in pencil on a piece of toiletpaper which we sometimes got in

the camps

from the Red Cross. He threw it from the train when he was brought to Germany. It was
his farewell note to me and he wrote in it: 11 Be courageous. Even if we would not see
each other again here on earth, we will NEVER regret what we did .... 11
And,

when after the war the most difficult time came .. of waiting who would come back,

and week after week the Red Cross notices came: Dries was killed, Bouwe was killed,
Aryen was not coming back, Piet was dead, Gerk was killed, Driek would not be back,
Jan was killed and also Hein and Albert would never come back .... I did not want to
live anymore! Why had I come through? For what???
-6-

�- .. • 6..)

I felt, like I was falling into a deep, black bottomless pit, without end ...
And then I heard a sermon s6 beautiful on what Moses said to the tribe of Asher
before he climbed mount Nebo to die~ "The eternal God is your refuge and underneath
are the EVERLASTING ARMS". These strong arms caught me.
I want to end with another verse of a Psalm of David, that all of us survivors
can say:" Praise the Lord o my soul, and forget not one of His benefits".

Berendina R.H. Erlich
2610 Raymond Ave. S.E.
Grand Rapids, Mich . 49507

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II - WACs
Lillian Remus
Length of Interview:
(00:09)
DM: This is Douglas Montagna from Grand Valley State and I‟m here talking with Lillian
Remus about her experiences during World War II. The first question is if you could speak a
little bit about what you were doing before World War II.
LR: Before World War II, I was in the restaurant business. And so I can remember the rationng
that we had, gas rationing, and shoe rationing. Meat rationing. I can remember all that, but we
had plenty because of being in the restaurant business. We were rationed but we had stuff. But I
do remember that, I remember when war was declared, I remember being at bar where I was
working, when that was declared. And so I remember quite a bit about the different things that
was going on, at that time.
(01:04)
DM: Do you remember, did the Great Depression hurt your restaurant business or were you able
to still do well during that time?
LR: Well, I always thought the Great Depression was back in the „30s…see, we weren‟t in the
restaurant business yet. See, I was a farmer, a farm gal. Because I graduated from high school
in ‟36, and that was almost the end of the Great Depression. And I remember that being a
farmer, and I say, my dad, he raised chickens mainly, and then the other, we always had food.
We had fruit trees. We had an eighty-acre farm. We had fruit trees, vegetables, we always had
food. It might be rice, applesauce, things like that, but we always had food. And we shared it
with our neighbors that did not have any, I remember that so much. But, yes, I can remember the
Depression, and how we felt, we had a lot. There were eight of us children. And we felt we
were very well loved, very well taken care of. And that we did not miss anything. I guess we
knew no better. Because we just didn‟t get to town, so we didn‟t know what was out in that
wild, wide world. I think that‟s why, looking back, I think that‟s why I joined the WACs. To
get out and see what‟s in the wide world.
(02:35)
DM: Do you remember Pearl Harbor and the day of Pearl Harbor, when you first heard about it?
LR: Uh, I don‟t remember that much. I remember it happening and it coming over the radio. I
remember that. And, say too much, now that, with the young men around, that was when, yeah,
I would have been in the restaurant business already. Wasn‟t Pearl Harbor…I‟m trying to think
what day that was…
DM: December 7, 1941.

�LR: Yeah, see, that was before…no, it wasn‟t. I was in business already, because I opened up in
‟38. So, yeah. And that‟s maybe what got me thinking more, yeah, that I could go out and do
something else besides being in a restaurant like I was.
(03:27)
DM: Um hmm. Can you talk a little bit about the circumstances that most encouraged you to
enlist and join the WACs?
LR: I think I always was adventurous. I‟m always that type. Because when I was going to
college, I took…I had one year of college. I was taking up home economics, cause I wanted to
travel. I had said then, if I could get in with some company, do demonstration work, and travel.
That was my main thing. So, then, when I had this other girlfriend that said she‟d like to join the
WACs, how „bout me? And I said yes, but my folks were in Florida, who run the restaurant, and
I did not ask them. I just joined up and went. And then they were notified, and then because of
them, then I came back home after six months. But I‟d say it was wanting to get out. Wanting to
get out and see more of the world.
(04:34)
DM: Do you remember if people around you, your friends, customers, co-workers, what did
they think about you joining the WACs?
LR: They wondered why I would go. They wondered why I would go, because some of them
felt I had it made where I was at. And I did have… a lot of friends, a lot of support, but again,
I‟ll say, I had no steady boyfriend and I was 23, and so I had no reason that I had to stay home.
Cause all my younger ones, my younger sisters, were all gone, so I and my brother were the only
ones living on a big farmhouse. Six bedroom farm house, where when Mother and Dad took off
for Florida, we were the only two there. So I just wanted to get out, and see the other parts of the
country. And I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it very much. I don‟t regret going at all.
(05:38)
DM: Do you remember what your parents attitudes were?
LR: They were ah…they just wondered why I would leave. See…I don‟t know what the word
is, but they wondered why I would leave and not stay home and support my dad. Because with
him telling me that he would put up that ice cream place for me, if I would run it, and he would
pay me, if I would run it, instead of going to college. And so he put up the restaurant for me. I
did run it. They put it up and it opened in July of ‟38, and then I signed up in ‟43. So I‟d run it
for quite a while. And had a very good business. And a lot of friends. But I just decided I just
wanted to get out and see more of the world. And I will say, we have traveled extensively, my
husband and I. We have traveled. We‟re not home people. We‟re busy people, out and going.
(06:47)
DM: And, then…can you talk a little bit about how you joined the WACs, and the process by
which you got into it?
LR: What do you mean, how I…

�DM: Did you, where did you go to sign up for it? Did you go immediately?
LR: Oh, oh. We went to Muskegon and then we were taken down to Detroit. I think it was
Detroit. We had our physical at Kalamazoo, and then we went on to Chicago, I got. (lloking
down at paper.) „Cause I got “On February 23rd, 1943, went to Kalamazoo for our physical and
there was sworn in. Then we went to Chicago, and from there to Daytona Beach, and was down
at Daytona Beach at the Clariton Hotel.” And, I got, “everything was running good.” But my
girlfriend and I, we were put in different companies. We were put in different companies, so I
heard from her for a while, but she stayed in. When I got out, she stayed in.
(07:56)
DM: What was the training like?
LR: The training, I thought the training was great, because I enjoyed cooking. And I enjoyed
experimenting. And I learned to cook with dried material. How to serve dried, and how to serve
in big quantities. And how to do a lot of cooking, baking. And I kept recipes for a while, but I
enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed the cooking very much.
DM: Did you do much of what we associate with men‟s basic training? Drilling, exercising,
marching?
LR: Yes. I enjoyed that also. Because I also did a lot of walking, biking, because… of course, I
had a car when I was working, but before that I did a lot of bicycling with another friend of mine.
We had our bikes. We had our rollerskates. We had that, being on the farm. We had things like
that for amusement. And so I did enjoy the regimentation, with the marching. I did.
(09:08)
DM: And… you were in Florida. Did you stay…where did you stay? Did you stay in Florida
your whole time?
LR: Yes. We were at the Clariton Hotel, which was quite a place. We were at the Clariton
Hotel, all the time I was there. All the time I was in, was at the Clariton Hotel, staying around
there. And I said, it was in dormitories, but it was just in big rooms, there. At the hotel. It was
great. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the comradeship with the other girls. And wrote to them for a
while. I just always have enjoyed being out like that. I like to be disciplined. I mean, I can see
discipline and I can give it. I can take it and I can give it.
(10:05)
DM: So you were mostly training, learning how to cook dried food and so forth.
LR: Yes. Yes, I mostly learned how to cook.
DM: Now, had you stayed in, what were some of the things or places you could have gone, the
things you could have done?

�LR: I was going to go out as a mess sergeant. See, this is what they had told me. That if I
stayed in, you will be going out as a mess sergeant. But, again, they did not say where I would
be going. If I would be given a choice. But I would be going out as a mess sergeant.
(Interruption from outside room.)
(10:54)
DM: Was there any sense of danger among the people that were in the WACs? I mean, was
there any sense that something dangerous, that you could get killed or injured?
LR: No, not as far as I was. Because we were still in training, you see. If someone went out
afterwards, yes.
DM: Then there was…
LR: Yes. Again, I was in training. And it wasn‟t that great, yet. Things weren‟t…because we
were not in the Army. See, we‟re just auxiliary.
DM: Even if you had become a mess sergeant, would you have been in the Army, then, or
would you have been auxiliary?
LR: Yes. Yes. Cause you see, I would have had to sign back in, and say, on this certain day in
August, that you had to go out the back door, from what I remember, come in the front door, and
sign up. And my superior, I don‟t know what her name was. I know I got a picture of her. She
advised that I did go home, as long as my parents needed me so bad. That I did go home and
help my parents. Instead of staying. So that‟s about what I did.
(12:03)
DM: Was there anything in your six months in the WACs that you remember as being especially
interesting, or anything noteworthy that happened while you were in the WACs, or pretty much
routine?
LR: No. Pretty much routine. Pretty much routine. I can remember sitting on our cots. I can
remember sometimes going into town, like we did. To go along with the trucks, go in town and
that. But as far as doing much, no. We were right there. We were right there.
DM: Okay. Then your parents helped convince you to go back and help with the family
business?
LR: Right. Correct. If it wasn‟t for them, I would have never gone back. I would have stayed
in, and wonder what would have happened. You can always wonder, what would have happened
had you stayed in.
(12:54)
DM: Was that a tough decision for you at the time?

�LR: Uh…yes, I think it was. I was going to say, yes and no, because I did appreciate my parents
and I knew how much they needed me at home. But I was giving up my life for theirs, more or
less. For what they wanted. And that‟s what some people still do. You give up what you really
want to do for … your parents.
DM: For family members, yeah.
(13:23)
LR: That‟s what I did, yeah.
DM: Were they… with you gone, did they have a hard time replacing you?
LR: Yes, they did. Yes, they did. Although my dad always told me that everybody can be
replaced. In some way. But they did not make the pies in the way that I made. I remember
when I got home a big, big sign on the window, of the dairy bar, “Lillian is back! Her pies are
back!” And so I must have made special pies, I don‟t know. But I must have. And so, that‟s
what I would say, I was very much appreciated. That I came back. That I come back. So, I was
glad that I came back. And I will say that when I got home, then here was a letter from this guy,
that I had met years earlier, hadn‟t gone with him. Met him. And for some reason, he had
carried my address with him. So here was a letter that he wrote, I think he was in Sicily or some
place, and wanted to know had I married the guy I was going with. And this and this and this.
(14:35)
LR: And then I corresponded with him for two years, until he come home. And then we got
married.
DM: So it‟s possible if you had stayed in, you never would have pursued your relationship?
LR: Yeah. You don‟t know. He would have been in, I would have been in, what it would be.
One never knows.
(14:55)
DM: And, then, when you got back, were you still, did you still pay attention to the war? Did
you follow the war on the news?
LR: Yes. Yes. Very much. Very much so. Because, especially, writing to him. Then you
followed it quite close. Then I followed it close, yeah. And then, things were not that good as
far as your rationing. Your food. Things going like that. You had to have all of that, from what
I remember. Plan all of that.
DM: And then could you…just briefly talk about what you did later on in life, after you got out
of the WACs and went back to the restaurant business for a while.
(15:41)
LR: Well, after I got out, when I was in the restaurant business for a while, and then got married.
And as far as never having any children, always had been active…I took care of children in my

�home for a while. I worked at a Y(WCA) and taught crafts. And then I started hiking, a hiking
group. And my picture‟s in the paper, three years ago this fall. When I was 87 years old, they
thought that was old for still leading hikes in a state park. And I was still doing that, I still am
doing that, and so at my 90th birthday, there was quite a party for me, again. For leading hikes,
leading them and having the people come out. I had thirty-five of my friends come out for my
90th birthday, for the park. So, ah, I have been very active with the public. Very active with the
public. Right now, we are raising monarch butterflies and black swallowtails and painted ladies
butterflies. And we had people come in yesterday, we had a mother come in with extra girls and
to show the butterflies, how they‟re raised, from their eggs…and, so I still teach and be very
active with the children.
(17:14)
DM: Sounds…
LR: So it‟s great. We enjoy it.
DM: Okay. Is there anything else to say, or…
LR: No. I think that‟s about it.
(17:23)

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of Interviewee: Ray Remus
Name of War: World War II
Length of Interview (00:39:24)
(00:04) Pre-Enlistment
• Worked at an ice cream place, making ice cream in the Muskegon area.
(00:10)
o Moved from Illinois to find work with his sister who owned the ice cream
place. (00:33)
o Grew up in Gilberts, IL (00:52)
o Was rejected from the draft the first time due to his eyesight. (01:04)
o Brother got him a job in a grocery store in Florida. (01:16)
o Returned home in 1942, received a second draft notification to get
another physical examination and passed. (01:25)
o Learned about Pearl Harbor while at a bowling alley in Florida and
decided to return home. (02:01)
(02:55) Basic Training
• Was in about six different camps before departing overseas. (02:55)
• First went to Fort Warren, WY. (03:05)
• Basic training included a lot of drilling and rifle practice. (03:22)
• Went to Camp Crowder, MO after basic training. (04:07)
• Then went to [Tennessee Maneuvers], between Nashville and Chattanooga.
(04:12)
• Continued to Camp Pickett, VA for more training (04:23)
• Sent to the Mohave Desert in California. (04:34) Returned to Camp Pickett,
and then went to Fort Pierce, FL to practice amphibious landings for the
invasion of Sicily. (04:40)
• Went back to Camp Pickett before heading overseas. (04:55)
• Despite rumors, they had no idea where they were being sent. (04:58)
• Was not very fearful at the time, figured he would make it out one way or
another. (05:24)
Service in Italy (05:48)
• Outfit went into the town of Scoglitti and eventually through Sicily and into
northern Italy. (05:48)
• Landed on D-Day after infantry had gone ahead. Remembers seeing several dead
Italians alongside the roads. (06:46)
• At this time, his job was to drive the ration truck. Had to travel to the Depots at
night. Didn’t have much to do during the day. (07:14)
• Was never a target, but remembers an explosion at a bonfire. Two men were killed
and several were injured, but most had left when the ‘chow whistle’ blew. (07:44)
• Went into Italy as far as Rome. (09:05)

�• Outfit was a labor battalion, responsible for repairing roads. (09:13)
• Worked as a mail clerk for awhile. Considers himself very lucky because he didn’t
have to do any heavy labor. (09:22)
‘
• Troops received mostly C rations, which was typically a stew. Wasn’t very good,
but it was something to eat. (09:41)
• Outfit traveled to Naples to repair the air fields that had been bombed. Some men
went to fix the harbor. One of the men had been an engineer and designed a
ramp to go over the sunken ships. (10:54)
• Were supposed to live in vacant buildings that had been available for a big
national fair. However, the Germans eventually bombed them. Describes his
experience. (11:47)
• Germans had a strong presence in the air during the entire Italian campaign.
(13:40)
(13:54) North Africa
• Outfit was in Naples for about a year before leaving for North Africa by LST.
(14:10)
• Describes conditions on the LST during their one week trip. (15:52)
• Traveled for ten days across North Africa by train. (16:22)
• Arrived in the same place they had been to organize their Sicilian invasion
around August, 1944. Planned to head to southern France. (17:05)
(19:21) Service in France
• Traveled up through central France as far as Lorraine, cut into Germany, then
headed south near the Bavarian and Austrian boundaries. (19:27)
• Unit was behind the lines repairing roads, hospitals, and air fields. (19:47)
• Had to travel to various towns as a mail man and company clerk at this time. Was
never shot at. (20:21)
• There were several air raids, even in France. (20:41)
• Didn’t get to meet many civilians because they didn’t speak the language. (20:57)
• Had no idea who had the upper hand in the war. (21:28)
• Describes his experience being invited to join a French family for dinner. (22:11)
• Describes visiting the family 32 years later. (22:48)
• Routine didn’t change after VE-day. (27:26)
• Left France within a few months of the war ending. Outfit was near the Austrian
border when the war ended. Traveled to La Havre to depart. (28:15)(30:24
Post-Service
• Got married once he returned home. (30:30)
• Went to a trade school in Chicago for two years. (30:42)
• Graduated and began working in refrigeration in Elgin, IL for about a year. (31:24)
• Moved in with his brother in Florida, working for $1/hour during the winter. (31:57)
• Returned home to work in refrigeration for a man that his wife had known. Worked
for him for 15 years. (32:27)
• Took over the refrigeration business when his boss passed away. Ran the
business for 10 years. (32:52)
• Was appreciative that going into the service gave him an opportunity to go to

�school. (33:07)
• Describes revisiting Hitler’s ‘Eagle Nest’ in the Alps, which had been made into a
fine restaurant. (35:15)
• Has been involved with the VFW Post in Muskegon for two years. Describes his
volunteer work. (36:03)
• Doesn’t know what he would’ve had without the service, because it gave him the
opportunity to get an education, a steady job. (38:40)

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                    <text>Living with PFAS
Interviewee: Renae Mata
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Date: December 11, 2025
Dani DeVasto (DD) (00:00:03):
I am Dani DeVasto, and today December 11th, 2025, I have the pleasure of chatting with Renae Mata
and Lynn McIntosh. Hi Renae.
Renae Mata (RM) (00:00:13):
Hello.
DD (00:00:14):
Um, Renae, could you tell me about where you're from and you currently live?
RM (00:00:20):
I was born in Grand Rapids in 1973, so I'm 52, which will, the age thing kind of comes back around later
in this interview. Um, till I was about 18, I lived, um, pretty close to downtown Grand Rapids, uh, Boston
Square area. Then, um, moved with my parents to Standale. Spent a little time with my sister in Moline,
Michigan, and a couple seasons in Idaho. And now I live in Plainfield Township.
DD (00:00:52):
And how long have you lived in Plainfield Township?
RM (00:00:56):
Um, well, let me say, let me go back a little bit. Okay. I got married in 2001. We bought a house in Alpine
Township near the Plainfield Township border. Um, so from 2001 to 2019, we lived on Bertha Street in
Comstock Park. And then in 2019 we moved to a larger house on the other side of Division, um, in
Plainfield Township, still Comstock Park.
DD (00:01:30):
Okay. Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community?
RM (00:01:40):
Oh, yes. All right. Here we go. Um, so I always used to love reading the Grand Rapids Press. I miss the
paper and, you know, the permanency of it and, um, you know, kind of extraneously kept an eye, you
know, tabs on what was going on locally. Um, but I was busy raising a family. I figured out that my boys
were 10 and 13 in the year 2017, which was the big PFAS year. Um, so I had a lot of distractions going
on. And, um, so let's just start at 2017, I guess 'cause that's when I got kind of pulled in. Um, I was
working as a home healthcare aide and, um, met Lynn McIntosh through her mother. And, um, took
care of Maya from 2013 to 2019.
RM (00:02:46):

1

�And very part-time 'cause I was, um, raising my kids. But, um, so I knew Lynn for a few years before, um,
she asked me a curious question and was that like summer probably? Summer of 2017. So I was there
taking care of her mom and kind of randomly, I'm not quite sure how it came out, but it was just
random, I guess to me. &lt;laugh&gt;, she said, so Renae, do you, do you live in Plainfield Township or
something like that? And I was like, no, Comstock Park. Um, I prob, you know, I said Alpine Township,
you know, she's like, oh, okay. And I don't recall if it was the same, that same conversation or a little
later.
Lynn McIntosh (LM) (00:03:32):
I believe it was a little later that you brought up to me that, but you had Plainfield Township water
RM (00:03:40):
Yes. So Alpine Township does not have their own water source. Um, so we've drank Plainfield Township
water since we moved in in 2001.
LM (00:03:51):
Knowing you, you probably looked up something because I had asked about
RM (00:03:55):
Well, I think that's where the Press came in. Garret Ellison's article, but that wasn't till fall. I'm not quite
sure.
LM (00:04:06):
Well, his first article came out at the end of August.
RM (00:04:09):
Oh, August. Yeah, I guess it was around that time. Um, and I ended up calling you, which we didn't talk
as friends at that point. We were just more, it was a business kind of relationship. I mean, we were
friendly and friends as much as you can be in and out like that. So I called her and I don't remember
exactly how the conversation went, but I, I said, you know, I, I am interested in what's going on with, you
know, Plainfield Township, water, whatever. And, um, yeah.
LM (00:04:38):
'cause you told me, by the way, I do live in Alpine Township, but I drink Plainfield Township water.
RM (00:04:45):
Yes.
LM (00:04:45):
And then I finally opened up to you
RM (00:04:48):
And you told me the whole spiel.

2

�LM (00:04:50):
Yes, About my other life.
RM (00:04:52):
Yeah.
DD (00:04:52):
Because at that point, did you know what Lynn had been involved with?
LM (00:04:56):
Not at all. Nothing, not a word
RM (00:04:57):
She kept it to herself,
LM (00:04:58):
And I kept it from my mother, even at the till the very end
RM (00:05:02):
And I, I would've always been with your mom when I saw you too.
LM (00:05:05):
Yeah. Nope. Never shared it with anybody. I, I had &lt;laugh&gt;. Yeah. I, I didn't, I especially didn't want my
mom to worry about anything.
DD (00:05:14):
So that must have been a revelation.
LM (00:05:16):
&lt;laugh&gt;, It was huge. It was like my double, it was like a double...
RM (00:05:18):
Yeah. It, it explained a lot of things though. 'cause I was, you know, like she seems all rather distracted
all the time. You know, piano lessons must be very taxing. &lt;laugh&gt;
RM (00:05:28):
No. But, um but, uh, yeah. So, um, yeah,
LM (00:05:33):
I was living a double life here, &lt;laugh&gt; triple life
RM (00:05:35):

3

�And that's, that's why I did bring along my little kind of resume because then all these different ties, like
this web of like, I wasn't, you weren't just Maya's daughter and I wasn't just your mom's caretaker. No. I
was like, by the way, I have, I have this other life that I used to lead.
LM (00:05:52):
Yes, that's right. Yeah. Your, your other life.
RM (00:05:55):
My other life. 'cause um, so I went, I graduated from Grand Valley, um, in 97
LM (00:06:04):
Where Rick was a teacher.
RM (00:06:06):
Yes. Um, biology major and a Natural Resources Management minor. Um, and I worked as a student
assistant at Water Resources Institute where Rick, I wasn't really under Rick, he was doing more of the
chemically stuff and I was doing more field work, but I knew who he was and he didn't remember me.
But, you know, there's students galore, you know. And, um, so I'm like, Hey, I have this past life in, um,
this is why I'm extra interested in it. So, um, with water resources. And then, so that was around mid
nineties. And then in '95 to '98, I worked for Michigan Department of Environmental Quality
Environmental Response Division as a student assistant. And I was actually working, I wrote here 35
hours a week. I didn't realize that I worked that often that much because I was taking a full, pretty full
course load too. Um, but that is where I met, I'm gonna just call him Dave O'Donnell 'cause I know he
wouldn't like that. He likes David. &lt;Laugh&gt; And, um, Abby Hendershot. And, um, I, I didn't work in the
same office as Janice 'cause ERD's building was actually in Wyoming because they didn't, they had run
out of room downtown. So we were in a totally different building. Um, but I had heard of Janice. I had
maybe had seen her or whatever, but, um, um, and then also a woman named Heather Hopkins who
was in charge of the Whitehall Tannery.
LM (00:07:39):
That's right. Yeah. She worked with Rick over there.
RM (00:07:43):
She worked with Rick?
LM (00:07:44):
Yeah
RM (00:07:45):
Oh, interesting.
LM (00:07:45):
I tried to get her, I was hoping she would be the one who would be the contact with this tannery.
RM (00:07:50):

4

�With a tannery background. Yeah. Okay. So, um, in that job I helped, you know, take samples from
monitoring wells. Um, I did some GIS type geographic information system mapping 'cause at that time
they were, they were trying to get the city of Grand Rapids to put some a, um, I dunno what the word is,
like a restriction or a, that you can't use Grand Rapids water. Like, people might still have private wells.
They didn't want people using those for anything, I guess. So I helped map all the different
contamination hotspots in the City of Grand Rapids.
RM (00:08:33):
Um, and I got very proficient at spreadsheets, &lt;laugh&gt;. So, uh, I did a lot of spreadsheeting there, which
I love by the way. Like, if life were a spreadsheet, you know, if I could, you know, without the grays of
black and white, it goes, okay, it goes in that cell and that cell only, you know, I would be a happy
camper. Anyways, so that's, that tells you a little bit about my analytical, kind of data oriented side, so.
Okay. So, um, I graduated in 97 and wrapped up my time as a student assistant with the DEQ. Um, went
off and had a couple adventures, which you're supposed to do in your twenties, right? I worked
seasonally for the Forest Service, the first season as a forestry technician. So, um, I was hiking around
measuring old growth pine trees, like, you know, literally like that big, you know, very large, um, that
year.
RM (00:09:34):
And then the second season I got a bump up to, what I really wanted to do is a biological technician. So
they paid me to, um, monitor a bald eagle's nest and, um, do birds like track down, um, some certain
raptors. And, um, yeah, Idaho's a beautiful state. I loved it. But I, um, let's see, that was till '99. And then
I met a guy &lt;laugh&gt;. So, and I never planned to not be away from Michigan. I mean, Michigan's
beautiful. I'm, I'm not a big fan of winter, but all my family's here, so I, that was, you know, my
adventure. And, um, so I came back and met a guy and, um, got a job with King and McGregor
Environmental, which mainly, um, they do permitting working with the DEQ. So back, you know, kind of
come around there working on the, the other, the other end. But working with DEQ to get the permits
that our clients wanted for housing developments and such.
RM (00:10:43):
Um, so I worked there for almost seven years until 2007 where I got laid off 'cause that was the
recession. And a lot of our majority of our clients were developers and stuff, stopped developing
&lt;laugh&gt;, like, um, that's also right before I had my first, no second son, sorry. Um, so yeah, I met, you
know, prince Charming, married him in right after, right after 9-11, 2001, had my first son went parttime at King and McGregor. Yeah. And then, um, three years later I had my second son. I have two sons
that are now 18 and 22.
RM (00:11:32):
Um, so that's when I had the career change, which that kind of leads into how I met Lynn. I wanted, you
know, my kids were young enough that I still, I knew I didn't want a nine to five job because, um, my
husband was working second shift at the time, or No, he was, he was second shift then. He was a, then
he went to first shift. Um, so we were, I wanted something opposite him. And, um, so we wouldn't have
to worry about too much daycare other, you know, other than my mom a little bit here and there to
cover. So, and the state of Michigan actually paid for my nurse aid training because I was, um, a
displaced worker as, um, laid off 'cause of the recession. So, um, and actually when I went, when I, when
I went to Grand Valley initially, I had got accepted into their nursing program. I thought I'd become a

5

�nurse, decided I didn't wanna wipe people's butts. But then I found out the nurse aids are the ones that
do that.
DD (00:12:30):
&lt;laugh&gt; &lt;laugh&gt;.
RM (00:12:31):
But, um, &lt;laugh&gt;.
LM (00:12:33):
That's a brilliant,
RM (00:12:35):
Yeah. Anyways. Um, but there's a place, there's a, there's a need for that. So I, um, anyways, the
flexibility is what I was looking for and, um, and helping, you know, 'cause I'm a caretaker type helper
personality too. So I got a job working very part-time at a retirement community. And then when I had
worked there quite a few years and the burnout's real and my back was, you know, feeling it, I wanted
something a little more laid back, which was more one-on-one, you know?
LM (00:13:10):
More companionship care.
RM (00:13:12):
Yeah. And, um, so then I, in 2013, got hired on by the, the personal care company that Lynn had found.
DD (00:13:23):
Leaves Personal Care.
RM (00:13:24):
Yep. And, um, got matched up with, with Maya because she was on the north end of town, same as me.
And, um, looking for evening hours, which was my availability. I was homeschooling my boys at the time,
um, during the day. So that brings us back to, um, 2017. So 2013 I started working with Maya. Four years
into that I got introduced to, um, Lynn's "Gal Noir" &lt;laugh&gt;,
LM (00:13:59):
My spy life.
RM (00:14:00):
Yes. Her "put the hush and hush puppy" she was, you know, and, um, she kind of pulled me in as kind of
a little her Dr. Watson to her Sherlock, right?
LM (00:14:10):
Probably so &lt;laugh&gt;

6

�RM (00:14:11):
Yes. And um, okay. So...
DD (00:14:19):
What did you, what were you like thinking or feeling as you were putting together these pieces of "I
drink Plainfield Township water, I'm seeing these things in the newspaper, I'm talking with Lynn," like
this is kind of what were your, like, do you remember your thoughts, your reactions?
RM (00:14:37):
Um, well, I've always been a bit of a tree hugger too. I mean, I got a natural resources management
minor and worked in that field for quite a while. So, um, definitely concerned. But I have a friend who
works at Prein and Newhof lab and the fact that Plainfield Township was always bragging about how
they won these best tasting water awards.
LM (00:15:07):
Oh yes...
RM (00:15:08):
So going by the taste and even the labs really at that time, because they didn't test for PFAS
LM (00:15:18):
They didn't start testing that till 2013.
RM (00:15:21):
Yeah, because of...?
LM (00:15:24):
It was like an emergent emerging contaminant concern.
RM (00:15:28):
Yeah. Okay. So not directly, but you were bringing your samples to Prein and Newhof at some point?
LM (00:15:33):
I was.
RM (00:15:34):
around that same time.
LM (00:15:35):
Yeah. Right around that same time I was, yeah. It's interesting though. What, what be interesting to add
on this was that my city manager talked to the director at Prein and Newhof and told them, you may not
interpret her results because we, uh, it was the city's water. I was still, they could do the sampling for
me, but they would not, they could not give me any interpretation.

7

�RM (00:16:02):
Oh, so you would get the results Just no...
LM (00:16:04):
No interpretation. Which, which like, I, I did not want. Why would a city manager, what what right
does... So I decided to, I went to Muskegon, then
RM (00:16:13):
Just changed labs
LM (00:16:14):
All the way I drive over there, like get into different county &lt;laugh&gt;.
RM (00:16:19):
yeah, it's too bad about that. Yeah.
LM (00:16:22):
Trace Analytical.
DD (00:16:24):
You were saying that you had a connection with Prein and Newhof and I was kind of asking generally like
your reaction to finding out.
RM (00:16:31):
Yes. Back to that. Um, so I did buy an under sink water filter after that. But a lot of it is, um, you know,
hindsight, I'm like, oh, you know, we've been drinking this since 2001. My first son was born in 2003. So,
um, I guess the fears came out because, um, I drank it while they were in utero. They had it in their
bottles. I didn't have the best milk production, so not a ton in my breast milk, which there might be a tie
with.
LM (00:17:09):
I remember you mentioning that. Yeah. They're finding ties with that.
RM (00:17:13):
Yeah. And then, um, you know, they drank water in their sippy cups, you know, and not like, I didn't
wanna give him juice and thought that was the healthy thing, you know? And so, and, um, but I
obviously we're not able to get a whole house filter. And then supposedly the levels were lower than
say, a private Well, but, um,
LM (00:17:41):
Isn't that also when Demand Action started to come into gear too?
RM (00:17:44):

8

�Yes. Okay. So I'm pulling out one of my spreadsheets and, um, not that I got involved with Demand
Action specifically, like, um, but, um, kept tabs on what was going on. So.
DD (00:17:59):
Just for the record, can you explain what demand action is?
RM (00:18:04):
Yes, it is my understanding that the main guy, Travis Brown
LM (00:18:10):
Yeah. And then, and there was another guy, Angel somebody. Angel
RM (00:18:15):
Yeah.
LM (00:18:16):
Last name is Angel.
RM (00:18:17):
Anyways, I, I don't know. That would be another good one to actually interview. He's very vocal on
Facebook. I'll, you heard...
DD (00:18:24):
I think I've seen his name.
RM (00:18:25):
Yeah. Yeah.
LM (00:18:28):
Corey Angel.
RM (00:18:30):
Corey, yeah. Mm-hmm &lt;affirmative&gt;. I, yeah. 'cause he actually ran for, um, a township position once
too. Yeah,
LM (00:18:36):
I think he did. Yeah. They, um, they, they, they formed probably because Corey and Travis, you know,
both shared concerns and Travis knew a lot about Plainfield Township's miserable reputation. I mean, he
knew about, he had some degree in water chemistry and knowledge and a lot
RM (00:18:58):
A lot of health issues too.
LM (00:18:59):

9

�He had a lot of health issues and he was very upset about state disposal site where they used
RM (00:19:05):
On a, on the East BeltLine. That super fund. Yeah.
LM (00:19:07):
They used air strippers 'cause there were leaks going there. And, uh, he kept track of their miserable
records of like, Plainfield Township was advised not to put in the North Kent Landfill there. And they,
Prein and Newhof, advised them to do it.
RM (00:19:25):
And his research goes all the way back to like the sixties.
LM (00:19:27):
Yeah, a lot of good input that they, a lot of good input that was objective. They ignored. And actually
they followed a lot of the advice from Prein and Newhof and Waste Management division. So he was
very upset. He knew so much. And, and Corey Angel was a lot more measured, but also very smart. And
they got this Demand Action. They had 2000 followers on their Facebook, and they are the ones who,
RM (00:19:57):
They really got the word out.
LM (00:19:59):
They're ones that got the word out. They were at the point where they were even calling on the, some
of the commissioners to resign. They put the pressure on. And, and had they not, I don't think the word
would've spread out nearly as much
RM (00:20:12):
&lt;affirmative&gt;. And that's how I knew about it.
LM (00:20:14):
That's how a lot of people knew about it.
RM (00:20:15):
Yeah. The pressure there.
LM (00:20:17):
Yeah. But
DD (00:20:18):
You weren't really involved with...?
RM (00:20:19):
No.

10

�LM (00:20:20):
But it educated you.
RM (00:20:21):
It educated me. Yeah. Definitely. 'cause um, I had gathered Plainfield Township Municipal Water, um,
news articles starting in, um, 2016, most of them are 2017, 2018. And, um, Grand Rapids Press, Fox 17,
WZZM Wood TV, Grand Rapids Institute for Information Democracy. Um, Michigan Radio. And, um, so
yeah, that got my ball rolling. As far as, um, like learning more, I'm very, I much consider myself selftaught in a lot of ways. It's like I'm a researcher type of personality. I just kind of jump in with two feet.
That's,
DD (00:21:11):
And this, you're, you're referencing your spreadsheet right now?
RM (00:21:14):
Yes.
DD (00:21:14):
One of the spreadsheets, that was something that you decided to do on your own, just to start tracking?
RM (00:21:18):
I don't...I love spreadsheets. I don't remember you ever asking anything like that. I just started, and
actually, um, when I worked for the, uh, for King and McGregor, um, I kind of, um, started a spreadsheet
that was not related to PFAS, but, um, I just decided, decided to create an organizational spreadsheet
because, you know, there was, um, too much stuff scattered around. So I, that's my, my nature to just
like, to compile, you know, and, and then to be able to educate people more easily that way too, instead
of going, you know, this, you know. So
LM (00:21:52):
Would you say that Demand Action was like, accelerated your education in certain ways to Plainfield? Or
not necessarily?
RM (00:22:03):
Yeah. I don't think, like, I'm just counting how many, um, of these news articles have Demand Action ties
so, um, let's see, October, 2017, trustees in Plainfield Township hear concerns about water
contamination. I'm sure that was Demand Action. Um, so October, November, December, January 7th,
2018, residents, Plainfield residents say township board is practicing intimidation. Um, "you owe us
more." Residents tell Plainfield Township. So, yeah, I'll, like, if they hadn't put the heat on, The pressure,
they, it would still, they, you know, until they get the heat, they're not, you know, they're not gonna,
LM (00:22:50):
They wouldn't have that filtration system if the citizens hadn't put the pressure on.
RM (00:22:53):

11

�Yeah. Right.
LM (00:22:56):
But then just, just to bring up, it was interesting that as part of CCRR, you also talked to Plainfield
Township in 2017. We talked about that earlier with AJ.
RM (00:23:09):
Oh, yes. That, um, the small little boardroom meeting. Yes. I'm picturing a bigger one. Yes. Yeah.
DD (00:23:17):
So you, I'm just thinking about this in time. So you're, you've had your conversation with Lynn. You've
learned about PFAS work and concerns about Plainfield Township water. You're starting to educate
yourself and track these newstories. Yeah. Then what?
RM (00:23:36):
Let me look at my notes here.
LM (00:23:39):
How afraid were you at that point?
RM (00:23:42):
Um, I don't think, I, I don't think fear would be a good word. Um, I do remember you, there was
something about a FOIA in City of Rockford once you, you had asked me to get involved with like, and I
was like, you know, I'm okay to do this, but Lynn, the cat's pretty much out of the bag. You know what I
mean? I don't think we need to be secret. You know, you were so used to being secretive about
everything. And just like, I think another one of the interviews that you did, somebody said the genie
was outta the bottle, you know, and cat outta the bag. And, um, I ended up, well, can maybe somebody
else do that? You know, &lt;laugh&gt;? So, um, yeah. At that point, once the cat's outta the bag, then the, the
fear thing isn't an issue. It's more like, all right, what do we do next? Let's fight it. I guess
LM (00:24:32):
I meant for your children,
RM (00:24:33):
Fear for my children. Um, I think when we went to the pediatrician, I, I educated, I, I'm very much a
realist, so I don't, you know, there's a fearmongering. I don't get into too much, but I am also a realist.
And I know stuff happens. I work in cancer data. I wear my fight to end cancer t-shirt to, um, fight to end
blank fill in. You know what I mean? But yeah, when we went to the pediatrician, I was like, by the way,
they've been drinking PFAS, um, all their life, including when they were a few cells old, you know? And,
um, my husband happens to have cholesterol issues, which probably exacerbated, um, potentially by
the PFAS we drank. But, um, also some genetic factors there, as you know. But as far as my boys
inheriting some of that familial stuff, but, um, so yeah, testicular cancer is a cancer generally of younger
men and teenager teenage boys. So, um, I was definitely making my, their pediatrician aware that. You
know, want you to be extra vigilant and, um, yeah. Uh, I guess that's all I can think at the moment for
the boys. Yeah. Okay. Let me look at my notes here. Highlight some of the things I've already talked

12

�about. So I, um, um, and if we have time, I'll get into the Parkinson's thing. But I mainly wanted to focus
on Plainfield Township Water.
RM (00:26:37):
And City of Rockford Water. Have you interviewed anybody that drinks City of Rockford Water before?
What is it, 2000, 2001, where they switched from the Rogue River? Do you interview?
DD (00:26:49):
No, I have not.
RM (00:26:50):
Oh. I'm also advocating for them too. It's just like Lynn advocated for Plainfield Township. Um, I got the
okay from my friend Megan Force and her mom, Dawn Force. They grew up in the city of Rockford. She's
a little younger than me, probably, um, maybe four years younger, I would say. And she happens to be
my hairdresser. That's how I know her. Me and me and the boys. Um, yeah, let's just jump into the city
of Rockford thing. Since I talked about Plainfield. We can come back around to Plainfield, but, um,
sounds good. Um, yeah. And Megan okayed my use of her name. 'cause you never know how private
people wanna be or, um, you know, litigation or whatever out there.
RM (00:27:36):
So, um, Megan in 2016, in her, that was probably her early forties or late thirties, um, she was diagnosed
with a rather nasty thyroid cancer, which I believe Sandy Wynn Stelt also had thyroid cancer. And now,
just in the last, um, six months, Megan's mother, Dawn has also been diagnosed with thyroid cancer,
which I see, you know, when PFAS has talked about, where they talk about thyroid disease, but I don't
know that I've seen thyroid cancer. Yeah? Okay. It is a definite, yeah. Um, so in 2000, not 2001, 2000,
the city of Grand Rapids, city of, sorry, Rockford switched from drawing their drinking water out of the
Rogue River, which was just downstream of the tannery, 300 yards down, the, in the inlet to suck the
water to their treatment plant.
LM (00:28:48):
Never treated.
RM (00:28:50):
well, they treated it to some degree. They didn't just.
LM (00:28:53):
Yes. They never treated for PFAS.
RM (00:28:55):
Right. Because it wasn't really, it wasn't a thing, even though Scotchgard was invented. I looked this up
in 1956, and they had been using it since probably this.
LM (00:29:05):
58.

13

�RM (00:29:06):
58. Okay.
LM (00:29:07):
Yep. That's when they started,
RM (00:29:09):
that's when the, the hush puppies basically, or whatever they were making at that time,
LM (00:29:13):
Yep, the year I was born.
RM (00:29:14):
Oh, that was your birth year, &lt;laugh&gt; '58, huh? So, um, Megan being born in the late seventies, it must
be, she drank it, it for her growing up years. And she lived downtown uh, near downtown Rockford. Um,
and then she, she told me, you know, as she's my hairdresser, so you talk, you know, you talk about stuff
like that. And she knew my background. Um, she said, the surgeon said it was one of the nastiest looking
growths, obviously not just some slow growing, you know, like something caused that nastiness to yeah.
Just, you know, and especially I think, I don't know exactly how old she was, but, um, like I said, late
thirties, early forties, I have to do the math. But, um, uh, definitely a tie there, I'm sure. And, um, so as,
as far as I know, Lynn has advocated for Plainfield Township, and she's attempted to advocate for City of
Rockford people. But because it was so long ago, is that the bigger issue, or ?
LM (00:30:41):
Well, Dani and I, I just wrote a note, I wanna get this to her, but the city of Rockford did not express any
curiosity or, or concern about, they never pushed to learn more. They just, and there's another whole
little story there with both city managers.
RM (00:30:59):
Ignorance is a bliss sort of thing?
LM (00:31:02):
Yeah. They, they did not come alongside and express concern. Like, well, that was in the past. But what's
been heartbreaking for me is knowing people in my neighborhoods who have suffered some of these.
And I see it more
RM (00:31:17):
Cancers mainly. Are you...?
LM (00:31:18):
Yeah. And I, I tried, I don't know if you went with me, we went to a few events together, but you
remember you went to that one with that person. I'm talking about the, the one who had colon cancer.
We met at the library. We were wearing the same blue shirts, and we went there and she was trying to
garner interest in, in educating people about it. And she kind of was involved for about a year. And she

14

�wrote a letter to the editor, challenging Rockford's attitude about, ignorance, laissez fair, and all that.
And I, I have to get that contact information, but I remember attending that with you. And I remember
there was a, a representative there too, Deb Avens who was running to be a Kent County commissioner,
because she had to have her thyroid removed. 'cause she lived in Plainfield Township.
RM (00:32:17):
So, and remind me, was it Courtney Carrigan or was it another different Courtney that also...Because I
haven't listened to her, um, interview yet, but I'll have to
LM (00:32:26):
No, I'd like to get you to another person.
RM (00:32:28):
She, she grew up in rockford?
LM (00:32:31):
No, it was, it was the one you and I that I, whose name was like Briana Mezuk. She's the one who grew
up in Rockford and believes that she got cancer in her thirties because of drinking the water. Yeah. So
she was, she minced no words at the first public meeting. In fact, there's an article about that first
public, second public meeting at the high school. I think she was quoted in that. And then her letter to
the editor, which weigh in on someone who has a background in, you know, um, at, um, what's the
word for studying...Epidemiology? Yes. Someone who grew up in Rockford attended, drove over from
across the state to attend this public meeting, made public comment, followed up with a letter to, to the
editor, then followed up with trying to organize that one event. Do you remember the, the audio-visual
wasn't working and it was a while back.
RM (00:33:28):
At the library?
LM (00:33:29):
Yeah, at the, at the, uh, middle school we went.
RM (00:33:32):
Middle school.
LM (00:33:33):
And you went with me.
RM (00:33:35):
Wasn't it on your birthday or something? On your birthday?
LM (00:33:38):

15

�No, on my birthday was when Michigan, we made public comment about the MCLs. This was earlier
than that. It was probably 2018. And she was trying to generate interest locally about this issue, about
Rockford's drinking water, trying to get some traction.
RM (00:33:53):
Have you, have you heard any...that she kind of...
LM (00:33:56):
I need to get back to her. I, yeah. And it's on my list right now. Yeah. For Dani, because I think it's
important to acknowledge that Rockford really the laissez fair attitude. It's like, let's just move on. Yeah.
DD (00:34:16):
So you are, you know, it's 2017 you found out about the water. You've started doing some of this
research on your own at home and educating yourself. Um, what else were you up to? What happened
with and after that?
RM (00:34:32):
Well, I'm, I'm glad Lynn was here to remind me about various, um, meetings I went to with her and, um,
and one at Plainfield Township without her. Um, that was a pretty important meeting 'cause AJ, the
lawyer and Rick Rediske, um, I lent them the credibility of being the Plainfield Township resident of like,
alright, it's not just outside people creating trouble. Um, and I remember I had printed up an article, I
had found, um, because the township was still saying, oh, we're still looking for a new well field still.
We're looking for a new well field. And I'm like, it seemed pretty obvious to me that they weren't gonna
find it. You know what I mean? So I was more on kind of on the filtration, um, aspect in this paper. I
brought, I, I was gonna try to find it, but didn't have time.
RM (00:35:27):
Um, it just, it talked about how many thousands and thousands of not just the PFAS family, but of
chemicals that, you know, you don't necessarily test for. You don't even know the, how, you know the
specifics about them. 'cause, um, and the article was something about 10,000, um, chemicals that aren't
even tested for. You know what I mean? So it's like I was, I, I handed that to them and I said, you know,
even if you get this PFAS thing under control, what, what's the next thing that you're gonna find that you
haven't, these filters aren't pulling out or whatever. So to be more vigilant on, um, being up on what the
newest nasty out there that's either a new chemical or one that they're just realizing is, you know, like
asbestos, they thought it was this great insulator and working in cancer data, they found out, you know,
it gives you mesothelioma, lung cancer.
RM (00:36:29):
Um, so that, I thought that was a pretty important, um, meeting. And they did end up getting the grant
and spent some of our tax money, you know, 'cause I've seen my water bill going up over these past few
years too, because the grant doesn't cover everything. And, um, yeah, it's the citizens that end up
picking up the, uh, the bill for this sort of stuff. So,
DD (00:37:01):
and the grant is for looking for a new well or...?

16

�RM (00:37:04):
The grant was for the fancy filters that they put on. Yeah. And then, then they had a lot of visitors from
other, um, cities, states, and even out of country to look at this filtration system because, um, realizing
that, you know, they say how ubiquitous is the word that PFAS, et cetera are, there's really not clean
water left is my, you know, like if it ubiquitous is a pretty big word.
RM (00:37:36):
You know, and if the polar bears in the Arctic circle or whatever have PFAS, then um, we just have to
filter it. And like at a different township meeting, I did a that's right. I did get up there and um, I made a
public comment about my children having drank this water since in utero in the water, in their bottles
and et cetera. Like I said earlier, as you know, my impact statement basically. And, um, and uh, like
switching to Grand Rapids water isn't a solution either. 'cause then the township supervisor said, well,
they Grand Rapids. It kind of opened my eyes. I hadn't really heard much about microplastics. So that's
the newest thing I educated myself on. 'cause he's like, well, Grand Rapids has their own issues like
microplastics. And I'm like, microplastics? You know, and 'cause that's really come about in the last how
many years?
RM (00:38:29):
Few few years. Pretty recent. Pretty recent. And how they, they think the average person has a credit
card's worth of plastic in their brain. Have you heard that stat?
DD (00:38:39):
That's awful.
RM (00:38:40):
Yeah. So I don't like to hyperfocus on just one bad guy. You know, I, the big, I'm kind of a big picture
person. Um, you know, like Lynn's mentioned before, you know, they originally were looking at
chromium or, you know, these other tannery associated chemicals, which can be just as bad, you know,
maybe not last in the body as long, but they can, you know, it's, um, it's not just PFAS. It's basically, you
know, we're talking about PFAS here because it's, um, different than a lot of these, you know, with a,
such a long term effect. And, um, yeah. When it's called a forever chemical that is fear producing, you
know, so.
DD (00:39:28):
Did you keep drinking Plainfield Township water once you knew that there was a problem?
RM (00:39:36):
Well, we got one under sink filter for the kitchen, um, you know, separate little spigot, and we used that
for our drinking water for the most part. But, you know, we maybe still fill the spaghetti pot from the
regular filter. I mean, this, um, you know, before they put the fancy filter on, it's not like we were buying
drink, um, bottled water. So it's like, what's your choice? You know? And then you find out that bottled
water has PFAS too, and probably microplastics. And so, um, that's, that's not an answer either. So, um,
yeah. So we had a three stage Aquasana water filter. I forgot what year we installed that. Pretty, pretty
quickly after all this. And then, um, but you know, of course, you know, we were still showering and
their skin and, um, laundry and you know, we, like I said, we just had the one undersink filter, so

17

�DD (00:40:36):
You've, you've mentioned that you had spoken about concerns for your children. Did you ever have
concerns for yourself?
RM (00:40:45):
Well, that's a good segue, &lt;laugh&gt;. Thank you. Um, you know, now I'm 52 and I, you know, I feel like
I've, I've lived a good share of my life. Of course I'm not old, but, um, whatever your definition of old is,
&lt;laugh&gt;. But, uh, it keeps getting pushed back farther and farther. But, um, yeah, always have been
pretty healthy. Not never on meds or have any health issues that really caused me any major. You know,
I just went for my yearly physical and had, um, uh, no concerns really. I mean, I figured it was probably
too little too late anyways, because by the time I'd been drinking it since 2001 and all my other
environmental exposures that, um, you know, just living in a developed country, you know. Um, but
okay. Here's our segue to, um, if you had done this interview with me before March 25th, 2025, I
would've pretty much been done with what I wanted to say for the most part.
RM (00:41:58):
But that is the date that I was diagnosed with young onset Parkinson's Disease. And, um, I am a realist,
like I mentioned before, and I, I just tend to jump in with two feet. And, and actually I had, I had actually
jumped into the Parkinson's thing a few years ago because I have a very strong family history of it. So I
was already fascinated with kind of like maybe the genetic, um, factors there. My dad had it, his sister,
um, their mother, my grandmother had essential tremors. So when I got a tremor a year or two ago, I
was really hopeful it was an essential tremor, you know? 'cause sometimes people just get a little shaky,
you know? Not necessarily at age 50 or 49, however old I was. But, um, you know, I always kind of half
joked between the three of us siblings, you know, probably one of us is gonna get Parkinson's, you
know, um, and I won the lottery there. Hopefully my other two older siblings don't get it. Um, so I have
a, a strong family history. So, um, um, so how that ties in with PFAS.
RM (00:43:14):
So in, um, in 2019, I, I, I, um, 2018, I, I got a, I kind of changed careers from the, um, nurse aid thing
'cause burned out in my body, you know, I knew I couldn't do it for the rest of my life. And so I got a,
went to Ferris and got a certificate in cancer Information management. Always been fascinating 'cause
who hasn't been affected by cancer. Um, my husband's, uh, 28-year-old brother died of a rare sarcoma
that may or may not have been from, um, pesticide exposure 'cause they grew up, um, in migrant
housing and up north. With pesticides and such. Um, so I, you know, I've always been kind of concerned
for my husband with, he was out weeding fields from age 10 and up, you know, um, that exposure. And,
um, so how that ties in, you know, so I was a researcher for cancer and, you know, I'm looking at
people's medical records all day and, um, educating myself, and not just cancer.
RM (00:44:20):
And, um, and just recently since I was invited to do this interview, kind of arranged with Lynn's help.
Thank you, Lynn. And, um, I've just kind of delved into this. I work with cancer registry. So in 1971, Nixon
passed, you know, kind of a law like the war on cancer, which there's been different, there's a war on,
you know, war on Parkinson's or war, you know, sort of thing too. Um, that's been more recent. But,
um, so hospitals and such are required to, to report their cancer cases to state and national registries. So
that's what I deal with. I deal with pulling that information out of people's medical records and putting
it, you know, it's not even, it's sort of de-identified, I guess, you know, the, when it, when it gets to

18

�public, um, access of that sort of statistics. But, um, so that got me thinking about, um, cancer isn't the
only thing out there that's caused by environmental contaminants.
RM (00:45:40):
That's, it's been established with Parkinson's that, um, that they, they actually know, they figured out
that it's actually a higher number than they thought was genetically related. So I did do some genetic
testing, which surprisingly came back negative for the known monogenic causes of Parkinson's. So
there's like top seven mutations that, that is a definite connection with getting Parkinson's, especially
like young onset. Um, and, um, I did, I tested negative for those, and then they did an additional panel of
like 21 additional genes that are associated with Parkinson's, Parkinsonism, whatever you wanna call it.
And that was also negative, but educating myself, I've always been fascinated with genetics, you know,
and the epigenetic thing is that those top seven singular genes that I could have inherited, which, you
know, I could, there, I could have one bad guy that they just haven't discovered yet.
RM (00:46:46):
Because even with cancer, they find different mutations, not just the BRCA, the BRCA is the main, is the
well-known one, but. With cancer. Um, so yeah, I could potentially have, you know, since I have such a
big family history, potentially have an unknown bad guy or, um, there's, it could be polygenic just in, like
my husband has high cholesterol that runs in his family. He, you know, when his twenties, you know,
kinda a younger onset of high cholesterol and all the stuff that comes along with heart disease. And, um,
so I may may very well have two genes working, what's the word? Um, together, together in tandem.
Yeah. Together, um, to cause my trigger to get Parkinson's to be more sensitive to environmental
contaminants. Um, genetically predisposed. Yes. So, I mean, and I had looked into it. My dad was
officially diagnosed, I think in his early seventies, but I'm sure he had it at least 10 years before that he
didn't have, have really have a tremor.
RM (00:48:03):
So if I hadn't gotten my tremor, I would, I, right now I could be sitting here not knowing I had Parkinson's
because I didn't give the tremor. But all this other stuff that I've been chalking up to perimenopause and
long COVID and like, 'cause I lost my smell with COVID. So I'm like, well I've, maybe it's just long COVID
all this more cognitive and mood issues that I was dealing with. 'cause it's not just a tremor. Um, so, you
know, to turn my lemons into lemonade, I've gotten involved just in the, it's not even been a year yet,
you know, nine months or whatever that since my diagnosis with, um, kind of educating and not really
the advocating yet, but the educating of others. First of all, what Parkinson's is, being not just a tremor,
like my, I sent you that, the iceberg, because there's so many, um, symptoms that of course, you know,
I'll, if you have 'em, you don't necessarily have Parkinson's.
RM (00:49:09):
But, and there can be overlap, but people with Parkinson's can have a lot more than meets the eye. I
don't know if you have any family members with Parkinson's or know...?
DD (00:49:21):
I don't have any family members with Parkinson's.
RM (00:49:23):
or know anybody closely?

19

�New Speaker (00:49:25):
Yeah, I do know a few people.
New Speaker (00:49:26):
Yeah. So, um, I've done a little writing, which I don't consider myself a writer. I love more technical stuff,
but I've, I apparently have a little bit of a flare for it. You know, I sent you the one article, but more nuts
and bolts and, um, so the lemonade, lemons into lemonade, um, this interview and kind of like, well, is
there a Parkinson's registry? You know, like cancer registry? And, um, I sent you that. I found out just
right before I sent that to you, I'm like, oh, California, Utah and Nebraska have Parkinson's registries.
RM (00:50:02):
And California specifically had talked about Parkinson's hotpots, and I'm like, with cancer, cancer
clusters. I'm like, Hmm. And, and somebody offhandedly mentioned to me at some Parkinson's
gathering, they're like, oh, so maybe that's why there's so many people in West Michigan with
Parkinson's. And I'm like, wait, what really? What, what did you just say? You know what I mean? So
that's kind of whet my Sherlock Holmes, I guess of like &lt;laugh&gt; my, my data mind, um, to go Well, um, I
listened to Kevin Elliot's, um, interview that you did, and he said, he talked about substantial scientific
uncertainty. You know, they base, you know, the, of course the essence of science, there's always gonna
be some sort of uncertainty, but substantial, I guess was the key word. So if you're gonna use the excuse
of no data, let's try to fix that. You know what I mean?
RM (00:51:06):
Like, oh, it might be tied to Parkinson's, you know, PFAS tied with Parkinson's too, but the absence of
evidence is not evidence of absence. So how can we get the evidence, the data, um, because when
somebody says there's no reported problems, that's not good enough for me. You know what I mean?
Like, um, I, uh, yeah, we talked about how these government people like kind of fein or the lawyers or
whatever, whoever you're talking about, fein ignorance or, or they, well, we don't know. You know,
that's, I'm not the type to just be, oh, we don't know, then just stick my head in the sand. You know, it's
like, yeah, it sucks to have Parkinson's and I, I maybe overanalyze it, but at the same time, just like Lynn,
maybe people thought she was overanalyzing what was going on with Wolverine and so forth.
RM (00:52:13):
Um, it just seems like a no-brainer that, um, PFAS in Parkinson's needs to be delved into more deeply.
DD (00:52:28):
The role of PFAS?
RM (00:52:29):
The role of PFAS, especially since it's such a forever chemical and it's shown to be a neurotoxin. Um, and
one of the things I've researched for one, one of the articles I wrote was about brain first versus body
first origins. And, um, that was eyeopening to me because, you know, you assume it starts in the brain,
you know, maybe a lot of Parkinson's people lose their sense of smell from Parkinson's, like the olfactory
bulb. But there's lots of research lately about how it could start in your gut and then travel up your
vagus nerve to your brainstem. Yeah. So poor gut health, leaky gut, all that. And what if you're putting in

20

�your gut could affect getting, you know, the incidence prevalent or whatever incidence of increasing
your risk.
RM (00:53:19):
Especially, you know, if you have that genetic predisposition. I'll have to send you that article.
DD (00:53:24):
That's wild.
RM (00:53:26):
I know. And then there was another article I haven't even read, it was quite long. I haven't read about
how your gut microbiome is. So they, they're just learning so much about how instrumental those are in
your general health. You know, not you just, you think of them as digestion, but, um, some of them
might help take PFAS out of your body or some, you know, if you have poor gut health, you know, or low
by low amount of the good bacteria. And, um, you're more susceptible for, um, nasties to maybe travel
up your vagus nerve to your brainstem, for example. So, um,
DD (00:54:12):
So you've been kind of throwing yourself into this new research project, it sounds like.
RM (00:54:16):
I tend, I tend to do that, which isn't always necessarily good for my physical and mental health, but,
DD (00:54:25):
And is this this kind of been since your diagnosis or were you starting to do this work before?
RM (00:54:32):
Not in relation to PFAS, but actually, um, I like to promote Michael J. Fox has a data study called PPMI.
Um, I could look up what exactly that stands for, but basically anyone, any adult can join it. And I
actually joined it in 2022. Um, I think that's around the time that I noticed a twitch behind my right knee.
And I, I didn't necessarily, you know, a lot of it's hindsight, you know, like Huh. Subconsciously or
whatever. But I had looked into, um, you know, 'cause Michael J. Fox has helped just bring the, the
Parkinson's to the forefront, just like with Lynn and PFAS here in this area. And, um, so since 2022, I've
been, um, taking data surveys every three months so they can, um, track progression. Like, 'cause so I, I
started it when I wasn't diagnosed. Then there's like, you know, you keep asking you every time, "Have
you been diagnosed?"
RM (00:55:29):
No, no. And then finally I said, yes, you know, 'cause I got diagnosed and my got my sister to do it. She
hasn't been diagnosed. And hopefully it won't be, but to compare, you gotta have your control of who
doesn't get Parkinson's. So if, if you'd like to join PPMI, I can send you info. 'cause um, they need that,
you know, kind of, you know, the, the non-Parkies that, um, uh, and actually that that ties in like
jumping in with both feet. I joined a clinical trial, which, um, they actually compare their, the date of
their, um, they compare what they're finding out from my blood tests or brain scans and comparing it to

21

�some of the data that's been gathered through PPMI to say this, I'm taking a neuro antineuroinflammatory pill that's hopefully will slow my Parkinson's, but that's kind of subjective, you know.
RM (00:56:38):
So they do, they do draw blood to see if my inflammasomes, you know, these inflammatory markers,
how they respond or don't respond. You know, like it could be on the placebo too. It's one of those. So,
um, but the PPMI is helpful to have something to compare, you know what I mean? Such a big data set
to, um, to know how people tend to progress. But my neurologist said, if you've seen one Parkinson's
patient, you've seen one Parkinson's patient. Because it's so variable. And that's the tricky part of
Parkinson's is like young onset generally progress slower, but not always. So, um, and
DD (00:57:19):
Then I'm sure if you're trying to link in PFAS, it just makes it all the trickier.
RM (00:57:24):
Yeah. And like, and I kind of put PFAS to the back burner, you know. But now this is kind of brought it to
the front burner, which it, you know, like it is what it is. And I'm, like I said, I'm a realist and, um, yeah, I
went, I went through the stages of grief and probably still am going through a, a, you know, potential
loss of abilities and, and a lot of hindsight stuff like, oh, that's why I, you know, it wasn't just necessarily
like seasonal effective disorder, why I'm, my anxiety and depression have increased and, you know what
I mean? 'cause of my, my dopamine, my serotonin, my norepinephrine, um, I showed, I showed Lynn
this graph, which she's like, oh, you have to need to unsee that. And I'm like, yeah, I wish I could. It says
that by the time you have your motor symptom, you've already probably lost up to 70% of your
dopamine producing neurons.
DD (00:58:18):
Wow.
RM (00:58:18):
Yeah. So it's not just like, oh, you get a tremor. Oh, now you have Parkinson's, you've had Parkinson's,
and now it's just finally enough death of which I was thinking that Parkinson's is almost like a reverse
cancer in a way, because instead of cells proliferating these alpha nucleon misfolded proteins are going
in your body and killing off stuff and causing a tremor causing, um, my right leg. I don't, I don't take as
big of a step with my right leg. And, um, when I, when I walk without thinking about it, my right arm
doesn't swing. And, you know, my loss of smell might be from the Parkinson's also, even though my
husband can't smell either from the COVID from in 2021. But, um, anyways, to kind of wrap up, um,
what my newest, I guess not really tangent, um, about how, I dunno, what, what was your, your wrap up
question of, um, I think you kind of asked it already, but
DD (00:59:27):
What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward?
RM (00:59:30):
Moving forward? Um, yeah, Lynn's comment about, I don't know, I think she maybe maybe said it off
the record, but, um, about like Tobin's family thinking that, assuming, you know, that terrible word of

22

�assuming that their treated Plainfield Township water after they got put on that expensive, you know,
extension of Plainfield townships, um, waterlines. Assuming that first of all, that government's gonna
take care of you to the extreme. You know, they, they, you know, that's not a, not a thing. And, um, just
to be more aware and, and, uh, and you can't, you can drive yourself crazy with like, oh, should I eat
this? Not eat that, drink that, not drink that. And that's no way to live either. So it's a balance. It's
definitely a balance. Like just with my Parkinson's, it's like I really shouldn't be eating sugar and carbs.
'cause you know, especially gluten, it's a, it's an inflammatory substance.
RM (01:00:41):
Do I still eat some, I eat a lot less of it, but I put sugar in my tea. And, um, so that's still a struggle for me.
I don't, you know, especially with being only 52 and I have potentially 30 some years, my dad passed
away when he was almost 86 with Parkinson's, so it's won't necessarily shorten my life, but do I even
wanna live till I'm 90 with being stuck in a nursing home? And like, he, it was a very traumatic time with
my dad being stuck in a nursing home during COVID. Didn't get to see him butt through a window for a
year. So I could, I, I won't go down that rabbit hole, but, um,
DD (01:01:23):
Well maybe thinking about rabbit holes, is there anything else that you want to touch on or go back to
before we wrap up? Or things that we didn't get to bring up?
RM (01:01:31):
Right. Um, let me just look at my notes
RM (01:01:40):
Because one of the things with Parkinson's is it can affect, not necessarily your long-term memory, like
Alzheimer's, but, um, I remember Googling adult onset ADD before I was diagnosed on like, what is
going on? Like, I felt like I was getting ADD and I'm like, isn't that usually, you know, you get diagnosed
when you're hyper kid or whatever, but like, especially with women, a lot of times, you know, I'm
probably, I might have some ADD too, but it's more of a mental ADD, but then add in Parkinson's and
I'm gotta refer to my notes and cues and such.
RM (01:02:17):
You know, I've pretty much touched on all my notes. I guess getting back to Parkinson's registry and like
how finding Parkinson's hotspots, like I think it was, um, Bob Delaney that was talking about his
interview about autism along highways. I'm like, that, that was eyeopening to me. So I'm very interested
in maybe advocating, and I'll probably jump in with two feet and like advocating for a Michigan
Parkinson's registry like California has. And, um, of course that takes money, you know, money, you
know, as much as we hate, you know, oh, evil corporations and blah, blah, blah. You know, money does
make the world go round in some respect. Obviously some, um, CEOs take it to the extreme to, like,
money's more important than people's health. Um, but, uh, yeah. So I, I'll I'll keep you updated on that.
&lt;laugh&gt;.
DD (01:03:19):
please do.
RM (01:03:21):

23

�so. Um, oh, 'cause oh, and ADD 'cause you know the autism and like ADHD, um, ADD has also been
linked to dopamine issues and surprisingly enough, so I dunno if you've heard that. Hmm. So it is a
dopamine thing potentially, or part of it with, um, ADD. So, um, you know, the explosion of autism and
ADD, you know what I mean? Like ADHD, uh, then we have, you know, putting kids on all these meds
'cause I've, I've never been a pop a pill person and I'm a little conflicted about this clinical trial, but I'm
like, Hey, if it'll slow my Parkinson's, why not throw, throw the kitchen sink at it, sort of thing. So, yeah.
RM (01:04:08):
Yes. So I think that's, I guess my, my last little note I said, um, had a little flow chart of, um, you know,
just like my little Plainfield township, Lynn's city of Rockford and private wells, and then, oh, that's, we
don't have time to get into this, but, um, the health study that they did. That's Lynn really advocated and
I, I, I volunteered for it too. I really wanted to be a part of that. This, it was a few years ago now, right?
And, um, there's, I think there's still a place for the 40,000 people that have been drinking Plainfield
Township water, um, to have participation in some sort of study. Um, obviously you have to, you have to
cap it somehow, you know, and, but, um, but again, they're data, right? Like, just like money makes the
world go around in a lot of ways.
RM (01:05:11):
You know, if, if you don't have the data, then you, they throw up their hands and Oh, well we don't
know. And I'm like, you know, that's... And I saw a little ad for, you know, these ugly Christmas sweaters
and, um, this one said I was, I told my boys, I'm like, I would actually wear this sweater. It said, "this calls
for a spreadsheet." And that's like, you know, if I could spreadsheet, you know, Parkinson's prevalence
incidents and, you know, with, with geographic information systems, GIS mapping, hotspots, you know,
just like with cancer clusters and apparently autism, you know, and, and now it was fascinating too
about the upper class people getting, um, having more exposure to PFAS with the Scotchgarded carpets
and such. But, um, yeah. So, oh, so my flowchart said, yeah, you start with township and city. Can I go to
the county? 'cause that was like a Kent County. Um, did they limit that? Do you know much about that
health study? I, I looked into it, but I've forgotten a lot of it. But I've.
DD (01:06:16):
They've done a couple different health studies...
RM (01:06:17):
North Kent. Yeah. There's been different ones, you know, and affecting Michigan and their governance.
And then, you know, we've had, um, Italy and Japan and what other countries can you think of that have
been...?
DD (01:06:28):
Australia.
RM (01:06:30):
Australia that's been very, um, 'cause besides Wurtsmith, um, this epicenter has really helped explode
the testing and the knowledge. I mean, right? &lt;Laugh&gt;.
DD (01:06:47):

24

�Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
RM (01:06:50):
Yeah. So, so yeah. Alright. I guess that's about it.
DD (01:06:56):
Well, thank you so much, Renee, for taking the time to talk with me today.
New Speaker (01:06:59):
You're very welcome.

25

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                    <text>Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

1

David Geen: My name is David Geen and I’m here today with Renee Zita at the old schoolhouse in
Douglas Michigan on Wednesday, June 6th 2018. This oral history is being collected as a part of the
Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the
Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking time, for the time to talk with me today
I’m interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of Summer in the Saugatuck
Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it?
Renee Zita: Renee Irene Renaldi Zita. R E N E E I R E N E R E N A L D I Z I T A.
DG: Thank you. So, first off is, tell me where you grew up? We’re going to talk about your time here in
Saugatuck and Douglass but at first sort of how you got here and where you’re from, and how this all
sort of happened.
RZ: Sure. Um, I’m initially from the Southside of Chicago, Palace Heights. Grew up there, and um, my
mother’s family had a summer cottage on Park Street in Saugatuck. Um, she had one sister, and two
brothers and they divided the cottage up through the months of uh, July and August. Therefore, our
family usually had two weeks of spending time at the cottage with my grandmother, uh, Grandma Rene,
Irene….
DG: …Oh.
RZ: …hence my middle name.
DG: Uh, what year was it that you first came, or what year was it that?
RZ: I probably came the year I was born, I was born in March, 1959 and that summer, I’m sure my
mother brought me up there and up here and we spent uh, our couple weeks on the beach.
DG: Great! Mhm, how was the beach then, was it the same then as it is now?
RZ: [Laughs] Um, no. The beach, as I recall, there was a white, um, box structure that was the Beach
House that um, had the best hamburgers that….
DG: …Oh!
RZ: …She fried at the beach house and you could rent these big black inner tubes for 25 cents an hour,
so that was a treat when we were able to get an inner tube to rent, we would, and it was a treat when
we were able to go and get hamburgers at the Beach House, and the nicest lady, Menzie I think her
name was, Lois Menzie maybe, um would be the lady and that’s how I met um, Rondy Riteman who
would work at the beach house and um, they had the, I can recall the bathrooms were kind of grody but,
they had these screen doors that would bang after you’d go out….
DG: Oh, yeah?

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

2

RZ: …of the restroom and uh, often one summer I got to spend, about four or five weeks up here
because my mom had her two weeks and she became ill and um, my aunt had to take care of us, um, my
sister and me for an extra two or three weeks and that summer um, I would practically walk, I’d climb up
our since our cottage was on Park street, I’d walk to the beach because they didn’t get to the beach until
late and we liked getting there around noon and so, we’d walk up Mount Baldy and climb down the hill
to the beach, or go to the path um, back by Oxbow or the old harbor, or we’d walk up the beach road.
DG: Yeah? Everyday?
RZ: Practically every day.
DG: That’s great.
RZ: Got my steps in!
DG: Got your steps in then, yeah.
RZ: Okay.
DG: Oh my gosh. Um, [pause] what was your favorite place to, to come to eat in the summer time?
RZ: Um, probably the Beach House, because I love their hamburgers! Um, it was always fun uh, I can
recall um, going to the um, the Root Beer Barrel um, and get foot long hotdogs.
DG: Okay.
RZ: That was always, uh, exciting, or….
DG: …and where was that sitting?
RZ: That was on Center Street, probably between Blue Star and Ferry Street.
DG: Oh, right there, okay.
RZ: Yes….
DG: …Yeah….
RZ: …it’s original….
DG: The original location.
RZ: …there’s aerial photos of where it was, so I remember that, and um, our other favorite thing would
be to go get ice cream at the drugstore.
DG: Okay, the counter in the back?

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

3

RZ: At the counter, and actually I can still recall the counter being in front.
DG: Oh.
RZ: Before it was put back there. I’m pretty sure it was [phone rings] I’m sorry, I’m pretty sure it was out
front, um and then we, my cousins and us would often go there and have water fights and, um, back in
the um, back in the um, the room, uh, and just getting ice cream, chocolate, my favorite was the
Hudsonville chocolate ice cream with chocolate fudge.
DG: Oh my god, that sounds great.
RZ: And that was a treat.
DG: Yeah?
RZ: So..
DG: Did you ever come over to Douglas at all or no?
RZ: Um, yes. There was a donut shop in Douglas that I loved going to.
DG: Oh! I never heard about this.
RZ: It was where Wild Dog is now.
DG: Okay.
RZ: …and, it, they had the best glazed donuts, so we’d go over there sometimes to get a, donuts in the
morning and it would frustrate me when, if you didn’t get there by 9 o’clock he was sold out and I would
be like ‘Well why don’t you make more donuts!’ If you know you’re going to be, uh, on the weekends.
You know? But anyway, they were, they were very good. So, um, and now my favorite place in the
morning is to go to Pumpernickel’s.
DG: Oh.
RZ: Uh, my mom would always order uh, uh, a box full of uh, different sweet, sweets and Larry would be
so funny he’d put um, ants on them sometimes as a, as a tease and uh, a surprise or bugs, or flies,
whatever, so.
DG: That’s fun.
RZ: Yeah, that was always fun. He was, for some of his um, patron customers he would often play little
jokes, he had a sense of hu-humor like that, so.

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

4

DG: Oh my gosh, and so, how was the, how did you go from, like coming the for two weeks in the
summer until, [pause] longer? [Inaudible]
RZ: So, my mother loved it here so much that um, she wanted to, um spend the summer here.
DG: Okay.
RZ: So she branched off and bought her own place….
DG: …Okay….
RZ: …in 1983 probably as well as one of my other uncles, uh, Connie and Richard Vacco went off and
bought their own place down on uh, Lakeshore Drive in Fennville.
DG: Okay.
RZ: …In the early 80’s um, so then my mom had her place and….
DG: …On Park Street….
RZ: …On Park Street and Perryman….
DG: ..Yep….
RZ: …and she, we spent more time there, but now I was starting a family myself, and um, my then
husband John and I loved it so much and we were blessed enough to be able to afford a little home so
we branched off and bought our own home….
DG: Oh.
RZ: …On Campbell Street, which was Inez Campbell’s home. We bought it from her in 198 [pause] 6, ’87.
DG: Okay.
RZ: …and had that home for eight years, and came up here and summered all the time….
DG: Oh great….
RZ: …Ourselves, and then uh, from there we, we built a bigger home down on the Kalamazoo River.
DG: Yeah.
RZ: …and now, my current home, uh is on 98th by Park Street.
DG: Back on Park Street.

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

5

RZ: …Back on Park Street, where….
DG: …Where you belong….
RZ: …Where I belong. Where I belong, where my mother’s, unfortunately she passed a couple years ago,
and her ashes are now spread, um, at her cottage and at our family cottage.
DG: Oh.
RZ: …and maybe a little bit at my house around a tree, so….
DG: How nice.
RZ: Yes.
DG: Yeah. Um, let’s see. Do you have any other special memories of this area that you’d like to talk
about for the, for this, uh, interview?
RZ: Well, my special memories are spending lots of times with our family and cousins and also my
children, um, summering here with me and, um, they’re working. They worked at the beach as
lifeguards….
DG: …Oh did they?..
RZ: …and um, they, it would be a lot of fun when we’d sit at the beach, and they would be, um, on
rotation, and every, every twenty five or forty minutes they’d get a break and then they’d come sit with
us and we’d bring them their hot dogs for lunch….
DG: …Were they, all three life guards?..
RZ: …Jason, Justin, and Jonathon at one time, yes, were all, so that’s how they all got to become good
friends with Katie Frisk, or Katie Herber at the time, she was the beach….
DG: …She was a lifeguard….
RZ: … Well, she, she did the gatehouse.
DG: Oh.
RZ: So she would report to them when, ah, Denny, would, would, was showing up. Say get, get the….
DG: When the boss was coming.
RZ: Alert! Alert! The boss is here.
DG: Oh my gosh.

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

6

RZ: They’d have their codes, but they’ve all become very good friends.
DG: When did the Lifeguards stop on the beach? I remember first coming here and they were still there,
but I didn’t know any of them… [Over RZ] were your sons.
RZ: ..Probably the, [pause] in the 90’s, late 90’s.
DG: I guess.
RZ: Yeah.
DG: Yeah.
RZ: No! They did it all through High School, no, so, they finished high school in, the, maybe the early
2000’s.
DG: The lifeguards stopped.
RZ: Yes, probably because….
DG: Well, even your youngest was a lifeguard….
RZ: No, Jeffery was not, no, so, he didn’t graduate 8th grade until 2010 or so.
DG: [Speaking over RZ] Too young.
RZ: Right, so, um, yeah.
DG: Well that’s fun.
RZ: One of my memories is, getting all dolled up to go dancing at the Old Crow.
DG: The Old Crow had dancing.
RZ: The Old Crow, oh yeah. There was a line to get into the Old Crow back in….
DG: After the pavilion, of course.
RZ: Oh, yeah! Way after. My mother would go to the pavilion, I would go to the Old Crow, and that was
probably in the late 70’s that we were old enough to get in there, and some of us weren’t old enough..
DG: [Laughs]
RZ: …would get in there too. There were multiple Renee Renaldi’s in there because I was one of the first
ones to turn 18, and that was a paper driver’s license. So just brown hair, brown eyes and most of us
Italian girls were brown hair, brown eyes.

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

7

DG: So you would get dressed up to the Old Crow.
RZ: Oh yeah, not so much to drink but to dance and meet boys.
DG: Oh, fun.
RZ: Yeah.
DG: Yeah. Do you remember any specifically, uh, that you could tell us any of the boys that you, uh….
RZ: No, not from me, but my cousin Irene was madly in love with um, Mariano or some…uh, I forgot his
first name.
DG: Okay.
RZ: She would be um, a good person to interview.
DG: Oh, yeah, well that sounds like a story.
RZ: Yes! Yes, so we’d always have to wait and um, there was always a bouncer party after the Old Crow
would close.
DG: Oh.
RZ: …And Irene would be asking her dad permission to stay out, and that wouldn’t be until 1 or 2 in the
morning.
DG: Oh, late.
RZ: …and my uncle was not too keen on that. ‘Please, dad can we go to the bouncer party!’.
DG: The after hour’s party.
RZ: [Laughs] Yeah, so….
DG: Oh my gosh.
RZ: Yeah, so.
DG: That’s in the Coral Gables, like on the, was it….
RZ: That was on the other building where, where um, what’s the long building?
DG: The annex?
RZ: The annex, yes.

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

8

DG: It was in there?
RZ: The bouncer party, I think it would just be outside the Annex or something.
DG: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like the after party.
RZ: Yes.
DG: Oh, fun.
RZ: Yeah, so that was uh, my my, uh the, the guy I had a crush on was Johnny Fox.
DG: Johnny Fox?
RZ: …and he would, I met him at the beach.
DG: Okay.
RZ: …and his father was the um, do you know who he is?
DG: No.
RZ: Oh. He’s pretty reputable in the area, he’s an artist and….
DG: Okay….
RZ: ..he would come down to the beach, he had long blond hair and….
DG: Oh.
RZ: …um, he ah, would surf at the beach and I don’t know we met him down there, and um, one day he,
we, I don’t know, but I don’t know but I think maybe he might have had a crush on me but we went on
the paddle boat together.
DG: Oh! Okay.
RZ: He kissed me on my cheek, so….
[Both laugh]
RZ: That was big, that was probably one of my first kisses.
DG: I, I wonder if he’s still around?
RZ: He is! He lives up on, up on the hill.

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

9

DG: Oh, okay.
RZ: Him and his wife.
DG: John Fox.
RZ: Yeah. He did the Indian head at, at the school? He’s an artist here in town, and um, yeah! So that’s a
memory.
DG: That’s great.
RZ: Aunt Marie, going to the Dutch Village and you know, going on the rides there and um….
DG: Fun.
RZ: Going on the paddle boats, and the and back then it was not the Queen of Saugatuck but it was the
Island Queen. .
DG: Oh, yeah.
RZ: …ran by Mr. Hoffman I believe, Dick Hoffman was his name I think, who ran that. Peewee golf, so
those are all special treats when got to go peewee golfing and you know it wasn’t just….
DG: …Where was it, was there a little miniature golf here?
RZ: Yeah! It was where um, the park is, um [pause] um [pause] Wicks Park, right there was a peewee
golf….
DG: Oh.
RZ: …area, yeah.
DG: Okay, wow.
RZ: So, and that’s where the Island Queen sat, right there, next to the ship and shore.
DG: Oh, over there.
RZ: On the opposite side.
DG: Huh.
RZ: Yeah, so.
DG: Great.

�Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen
July 23 2018

10

RZ: Picture, I have pictures of that as well.
DG: Well that’s neat.
[Inaudible]
DG: Um [pause] what else can we add, anything? [Pause] In what ways has the area changed over time
since you’ve been coming here?
RZ: Well, um, I think it’s become much more um, uh, well I guess been, always been a summer resort for
people. Lots have changed, the structures, more restaurants, more shopping, I think there’s more
people that have retired here. In fact, in our family, there’s my cousin Paula just retired here, my cousin
um, [pause] Carla and her husband are now looking….
DG: …Okay….
RZ: with Bill at the homes, to retire here so, um I think it’s become more of a retirement….
DG: …more of a retirement place.
RZ: Yes, and it’s just a wonderful resort area, with lots of wonderful people….
DG: …Mhm….
RZ: …and lots of nice shopping, and food.
DG: Good! Um, well I think that’s everything that I have right now. Okay? Thank you.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam
Mike Renner

Total Time – (01:25:00)

Background
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He was born in Sigourney, Iowa on October 1, 1950 (00:22)
His father held many different jobs and his mother cleaned homes
He graduated in 1968 (00:54)
He played football in high school and had a job at the local grocery store (01:27)
He had four sisters and a brother growing up
His father was in the Coast Guard during World War II (01:57)
o His father was from Iowa as well
When he was in high school he knew a lot about the war (02:55)
o It was extremely difficult to get away from the war
o “It was everywhere” (03:10)
o The news of the war was always on the television
Many of the kids that he knew growing up were getting drafted
He knew he would not get drafted for quite a while so he decided to enlist (03:44)
o There were fourteen boys out of roughly fifty in his graduating class that
were involved in the war

Enlistment/Training – (04:12)
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He enlisted for a two year enlistment (04:20)
o He enlisted in the infantry
He was put on a bus and was taken to Des Moines, Iowa until he reached Fort Des
Moines Station (05:24)
o He was processed there for one night
o He received his physical there as well
 There were many draftees at the Station alongside the enlisted men
(05:45)
 He did not notice any soldiers trying to get out of the service
When he was processed through, it was basically just a physical examination
(06:39)
All of the branches of the military were in Des Moines (07:22)

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He was then sent from a plane to Fort Polk, Louisiana (08:14)
The soldiers landed at Fort Polk around 02:30 A.M. (08:20)
When they got off the plane there was a man screaming at them to get in a “Police
Call” (08:24)
They were forced to march to the processing center
o Later they were put into their companies for basic training (09:01)
In his company there were five platoons (09:17)
o He was in the fourth platoon
o There were twenty to twenty-five in each platoon
o The entire fifth platoon was Texans (09:35)
His school teacher was in his basic training company
o He was in the third platoon
The racial composition was mixed (10:40)
o There were whites, blacks and Mexicans
o The majority of the men were draftees (11:03)
The morale of the men in the platoon was great (11:34)
He was in basic training for eight weeks (11:45)
o He learned how to fire a weapon, how to tear the weapon apart,
bayoneting drills, and a lot of calisthenics (11:50)
He enjoyed basic training
There were not any parts of basic training that were particularly difficult (12:15)
o The P.E. Test was a little more difficult
He trained on the M14 and M16 (13:09)
o The soldiers had to qualify for the M16
One of the men went AWOL (Absent Without Official Leave) during basic
training (13:37)
o He was having marital problems
There were soldiers that were in poor shape
o There was a “Fat Farm” where they would send the soldiers having
problems with the physical training (14:14)
All of the drill instructors were extremely serious (15:01)
There were mock Vietnamese villages set up during basic training (15:36)
After the eight weeks of basic training are over he was assigned an MOS (Military
Occupational Specialty) (15:58)
o He received the 13 Alpha MOS
 It was an artillery assignment
He graduated from basic training in the middle of August (16:40)
When he went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, he asked to be changed to infantry (17:35)
o He was told that he would remain in the artillery assignment
o He had knowledge about the infantry and wanted to have that assignment
instead (17:58)
His reception at Fort Sill was similar to Fort Polk
The next morning they were assigned to their positions
o He was assigned to Echo Company 61 (18:43)
His training at AIT (Advanced Individual Training)

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o He trained on a 105mm split trail howitzer
 When he was in Vietnam he was put on a 155mm split trail and
they were extremely different (19:02)
 He only had one day on a 155mm during basic training
o He enjoyed basic training much more than AIT (19:22)
AIT consisted of preparing a howitzer, firing it and closing it back up (19:41)
o There was no hands-on training with artillery positions
 There told what the positions were but received no actual training
(20:01)
o There was a lot of boring classroom training
 He did not feel that it was relevant (21:01)
He graduated on October 10, 1969
He was sent on leave for roughly twenty days before leaving for Vietnam (21:37)
His time at Fort Sill was pretty relaxed
Many of the men got in trouble because they had so much time on their hands
o Soldiers were able to leave the camp around the sixth week there (22:27)
He reported in Oakland, California (24:28)
During his travels he did not recognize any anti-war protests (24:41)
o He did not understand why anyone would want to hassle a soldier (24:58)
o He did not understand the hippies – “They thought they had a tough day.
They should have been in ‘Nam one day. That’s a tough day.” (25:05)
His orders for Vietnam were simply to report and not specific to any unit (25:21)
He stayed in Oakland, California for three days doing random activities
He flew from Oakland to Hawaii, unloaded and stood at attention, got back on the
plane and headed to Vietnam (26:18)
o They landed in Long Binh, Vietnam (26:30)

Active Duty – First Impressions &amp; Various Firebases – (26:35)
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His first impression of Vietnam was that it was smelly and hot (26:39)
o There were barrels that were burning [human waste with diesel fuel] that
smelled terrible
o He remembers seeing a small Vietnamese child that had his leg blown off
(27:05)
o He thought, “What in the hell is this?”
When he was at the Replacement depot he was assigned to a work detail
o He had to cut Elephant Grass with a machete (27:49)
o His name was then called for the 101st Airborne Division (28:00)
He was then sent to Phu Bai for SERTS training (Screaming Eagle Replacement
Training School) (28:05)
o SERTS training taught them how to identify the enemy, booby-traps, how
to keep you alive, guard duty, and many more activities
o The training was extremely beneficial for his time during the service
(29:34)

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He then traveled to Camp Eagle, Vietnam (29:54)
o He stayed at Camp Eagle for a few days before being sent to Firebase
Rakkasan (30:14)
At this point he is assigned to a 155 Split Trail Howitzer Unit (30:23)
The artillery battery that he was a part of consisted of six 155’s, FDC (Fire
Direction Control), Captain, Lieutenant, Gunners, and Assistant Gunners
o There were six men for each gun (31:08)
o The FDC would call down firing data for gunmen (31:27)
 They called on a field telephone
No one had any concerns that they had not been officially trained on the 155’s
(32:10)
The rounds weighed 98lbs. and a firecracker weighed 118lbs.
The ammunition was stored in a bunker (32:38)
Firebase Rakkasan had the 105 battery, the infantry was around the perimeter, and
mortar men (33:13)
The ammunition was brought in by a Chinook (33:27)
Every soldier had an M16 – there was an RPG and a M60 machine gun for every
gun section (33:53)
They served on a two man guard rotation
o Everyone except the Section Chief would have to do guard duty
The responsibility of the gunner was to set up the right section and quadrant for
the gun (35:34)
o The gunner had the responsibility to make sure the gun was not fired until
he was fully prepared
Every gun crew had a Section Chief
He left Firebase Rakkasan at the end of February, 1970 (36:15)
After he left Firebase Rakkasan he was sent to Firebase Jack (36:18)
o The sun was out only one time on Rakkasan
o They were extremely wet from the rain
o When they were at Firebase Jack, the soldiers were able to dry out and see
the sun (36:42)
The battery would move by helicopter – they moved by truck one time
o The Chinook would pull the guns (37:23)
o The units would ride on separate choppers
They were on missions nearly every night (37:39)
o They shot a lot of H and I’s [harassment and interdiction] and Delta Tango
[defensive fires] fire missions (37:55)
There were very few times where the infantry units engaged with the enemy
The Delta Tango’s were defensive units
There was no significant contact with the enemy when he was at Firebase Jack
(39:00)
He was hit with shrapnel on May 18, 1970
o They had a twenty-four hour ceasefire on this day because it was
Buddha’s birthday
o The ceasefire was to honor their Vietnamese counterparts (39:33)

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o Some of the NVA violated the ceasefire and sent RPG’s against the
Firebase
The level of activity was similar at Firebase Jack (40:13)
o They would shoot 40 rounds between five targets – they were always
shooting the enemy
o There were not many incoming attacks (40:40)
 On Firebase Granite there was an attempt by the NVA to take
control of the American Firebase (40:53)
• There were nine Americans killed in the fight
His unit was typically paired with a 105 unit (41:19)
At Firebase Granite, the NVA had breached the perimeter (41:28)
o The Americans captured an NVA soldier and found out that there were
four hundred enemy soldiers preparing to attack the Firebase (41:38)
o The Americans called in ARA and Cobra’s
They would shoot flares to light up the area (42:30)
He did not use a Howitzer
His injury from the shrapnel at a previous Firebase was not very serious (43:45)
When his wound was being checked out, a Major told him to take five days and
go with other wounded soldiers to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam (44:36)
o In Cam Ranh Bay, he relaxed, watched movies, ate three meals a day,
body surfed, and enjoyed himself
On the firebases he would occasionally get hot meals (44:24)
o The other meals were C-rations
o There were no mess facilities on the firebases

Active Duty – Firebase Ripcord – (46:44)
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After Cam Ranh Bay he rejoined the battery on Firebase Ripcord (46:48)
There was a lot of shooting on Ripcord every day and night
While on Ripcord he would shoot over 100 rounds on each mission (47:34)
o There were always a lot of rounds to shoot
When they first arrived on the firebases, the soldiers would have to build the
bunkers and all other facilities (48:21)
o They would fill empty 105 ammo boxes with dirt and stack them, place a
band over top and then place sand bags on top of that
His first impression of Ripcord was that it was “just another firebase.” (49:33)
o They “shot and shot and shot” until July 1st when they started receiving
returning fire (49:51)
o It continued to get more and more intense
They shot a lot of high angle rounds (51:12)
o The high angle rounds were able to hit the reverse slopes of surrounding
hills

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The ammunition was brought into Ripcord by a helicopter and was dropped as
close as they could (51:52)
o Through July, 1970, they would face heavy fire (52:14)
o Every man from his gun would hump ammo
o Every morning they would have to clean up and clear away the extra
powder (53:09)
He was hit by shrapnel when he was taking extra powder to the dump
He noticed Firebase Ripcord to increase in activity in the very beginning of July
(55:01)
o They received incoming rounds on July 4, 1970
 They were receiving a lot of mortar rounds (56:10)
 There were mortar rounds that landed in their battery area
o It was constant mortar rounds
He would have to pull perimeter duty when he was on the firebase (56:51)
o The crewing was at the six level
o Four of the six men were eventually medevaced out
His gun was disabled towards the end of July (57:39)
o They lost two men in their battery unit
The enemy was wearing down the strength of the Americans (58:35)
o The soldiers were becoming hungry, thirsty, and angry
o The soldiers averaged “cat-naps” (59:01)
 There was too much to do to sleep
The soldiers did not have a shower for twenty-three days (59:23)
His gun was hit after he had been hit with shrapnel for the second time
o He was going to dispose of extra powder when a mortar round blew
material from the dump (01:00:00)
o The material hit him in the arm
o He did not have to be medevaced
 The doctors were extremely busy (01:00:40)
He was chewed out by his sergeant when the mortar destroyed his artillery
weapon (01:01:25)
o He was yelling at him about “preventative maintenance”
o There was not much that he could say to him (01:01:55)
o While he was being yelled at, a mortar round hit nearby and killed some of
his friends
 He pulled one of his friends out of a bunker and found out that he
had been killed (01:02:39)
 He then saw another friend, picked him up and ran him over to the
aid station (01:03:12)
o His gun had been completely destroyed
o Because many of his men had been medevaced, he stayed and helped
carry many of the wounded (01:03:52)
There was a Chinook that was hit by a 51 caliber machine gunner and crashed on
the base
o When it came down, it crashed on a load of ammo (01:05:06)
o The fire from the crash destroyed six guns [the entire 105 battery]

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o It was a mess (01:06:24)
Once his gun was disabled and helped in the aid station, he talked with a captain
that told him they expected to be overrun (01:07:23)
o They emptied the ammo supply bunker
 The attack never came
 They were extracted the very next morning (01:07:46)
He served as a director on the lower pad of the extraction area (01:08:13)
o He told the men to get ready to leave
o When the chopper touched down, other men were evacuated instead of
him and his men
o He later found out that those men had been killed (01:09:30)
 One of those men [Lt. Colonel Andre Lucas, the infantry battalion
commander on the base] had been given the Medal of Honor
He was extracted later that day (01:10:48)
o It was July 23 (01:11:30)

Active Duty – Remaining Service Time – (01:11:35)
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From Firebase Ripcord, he ended up at Camp Evans (01:11:40)
He was then sent to Camp Eagle (01:12:02)
o There was a big party at Camp Eagle
 There were dancers, steaks, and ice cold beer
 He and some other men grabbed some beers and went to sit on
some sand bags (01:12:35)
 They did not even want to get drunk
• “There was too much to figure out”
His battery reorganized at Camp Eagle (01:13:07)
He went to Sydney, Australia for R&amp;R
o It took him a while to remember how to walk on concrete sidewalks
(01:13:39)
o He felt like he was losing his mind
o He remembers running into one of the chopper pilots at an Australian bar
that helped his men off of Ripcord (01:14:22)
At the end of his R&amp;R, he was getting bored and wanted to go back to Vietnam
Once he returned from R&amp;R he jumped around a few firebases with his battery
(01:15:42)
In November of 1970, he extended his tour by seventy-five days so that he could
get a six month early out
o November and December were awful with the monsoons (01:16:26)
He was sent to Camp Eagle to process out (01:16:40)
o He never had to do the full seventy-five days
After he left Camp Eagle, his plane stopped in Japan where he bought a 35mm
Canon camera (01:17:27)
o They then flew to Fort Lewis, Washington (01:17:37)

� They processed in Fort Lewis
o He flew from Seattle, Washington and flew home to Des Moines, Iowa on
December 22, 1970 (01:18:08)

After the Service – (01:18:17)
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When he returned, he “bummed around and didn’t do a lot of anything”
(01:18:43)
He slowly eased back into society
He was not welcomed home by a lot of people (01:19:02)
o Any job application where he wrote that he was a veteran, he would be
declined the position (01:19:17)
o When he was asked if he was a veteran, he would respond that he was.
They would respond with “Well, we just can’t use ya.” (01:19:41)
He worked construction for his career (01:20:08)
He owns his own construction company
o His sons work with him
As he reflects on Vietnam, he believes that it taught him to be himself (01:21:08)
Vietnam defined his entire life (01:21:42)
It took him a long time before he told anyone about his experiences
When he went to join a veterans organization, one man said, “I’ll tell you one
thing you little son of a bitch, at least we won our war.” (01:23:39)
o He immediately left the building

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