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Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Tad Such
(00:26:00)
(00:05) Introduction
• Born April 5th, 1961.
• Remembers having a good childhood.
• He grew up in Grand Haven, Michigan, very close to the lake.
• His father was an elementary principle.
• He played sports throughout middle school.
• Fell in with the wrong crowd during high school and did not have a good high
school experience. However, his family was very loving and supportive.
• He did manage to graduate from high school.
(10:20) Enlistment
• Enlisted in the Air Force.
• His mom and he went to Muskegon, Michigan.
• Had his physical and sworn in Detroit, Michigan.
• Went to Lackland Air Base in San Antonio, Texas.
• Remembers unloading from the bus and having to line up and learning that you
must do something as a group, not as an individual in the military.
• Received haircuts and uniforms on the second day of training.
• The men were housed in dormitories.
• Was taught integrity and honesty while becoming a part of the military.
• He was able to go home for Christmas after his basic training.
(17:00) Holman Air Force Base
• Was told he would be running as a heavy equipment operator.
• Knows most of the history of his base.
• He loved his time on the base in New Mexico.
• The men would rent cars and camp or go to town for football games when on
leave on the weekends.
• He was part of a group of 13 men who had to learn the heavy equipment.
• He took a job at a golf course. The course was on the flight line for the incoming
planes.
• He changed a 9 hole course to an 18 hole course while working their.
• He was able to see the space shuttle come in from space. He had to clear a runway
for the shuttle to land; it took 29 hours of straight working.
• The men were invited to watch the shuttle land very close.
• The runway he constructed was made of compacted sand. It was 3.5 miles long.
(26:00) Discharge
• He learned how to be a man while he was in the service.
• He flew back home commercially when he was finished.
�•
•
•
•
•
•
At one point while still on the base, they received about an inch of snow. There
were a lot of accidents on the side of the road. No one could drive in the snow
because they were not used to it.
Worked for the Army corps of Engineers cutting grass once he returned home.
Married a woman from his home town and had a daughter.
Alcoholism is prevalent in his family.
He became separated from his wife, and then went into recovery from his
alcoholism.
He worked at a transition facility once he recovered.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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SuchT
Title
A name given to the resource
Such, Tad (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Such, Tad
Description
An account of the resource
Tad Such served in the US Air Force between 1980 and 1983. He was stationed at Holman Air Force Base in New Mexico, where he worked as a heavy equipment operator.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Air Force
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-04-16
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Harold Sundberg
(56:40)
Background information (1:10)
Born April 14th 1926 in Red Wing, Minnesota. (1:10)
Red Wing had a population of about 10,000 when he resided there. It was a small factory town.
(2:12)
The town had a lot of small factories including a tannery, a flour mill, and shoe factories. (2:42)
The location is very scenic on the banks of the Mississippi River. (Mark Twain Country.)(3:53)
He graduated from high school in 1944.(5:30)
After graduation he enlisted in the Navy. (5:58)
His brother-in-law was a carrier pilot in the Navy and his father was in the Navy during World
War I. (5:43)
Basic training over view (6:00)
He attended boot camp at Great Lakes, Naval Base in Illinois. (6:18)
He also hoped to play football for the Navy, but he was placed in training for electronics and
worked on radars. (6:23)
He was sent to The Great Lakes training school that was housed in a high school in Chicago.
(7:22)
The navy took the high school to use for education and training. While Harold trained there, he
also lived at the high school. (7:30)
After completing his education he was sent to Monterey, California. (7:50)
Training at Great Lakes Navel Base (approx 1944) (8:20)
He resided at Great Lakes Naval Base for approx. 1 month. (8:34)
He made lasting friendships in basic. (8:45)
Basic included a lot of physical training. (10:35)
Approx. 100 men stayed in a barracks at Great Lakes Naval Base. (12:08)
He found the physical training tolerable due to his athleticism and his sports in high school.
(12:30)
When arriving at the base, he recalled feeling like just a number “one among hundreds”(13:45)
There was a catholic church near the base that invited some of the soldiers for a dinner and also
invited girls. (14:00)
Electronic School (14:35)
Hirsch High School was vacated by the school district. Then the Navy took it for training. There
the men lived, showered, slept, ate, and studied. (14:40)
�
Here he learned the fundamentals of electronic work. The courses included a lot of arithmetic
and geometry. (15:00)
He stayed at the high school for 1 month before being sent to California. (15:20)
He lived in Monterey, California. He had access to a polo field were the men did their
training.(15:56)
While there, the men mostly studied. They had classes in the morning as well as at night. The
courses were cram courses under the EDDY program. (16:20)
There were women in the navy but not in his training outfit. The women in the navy were
known as WAVES. (16:55)
While in Monterey, California he continued his education with electronics. (17:26)
He stayed in Monterey for 90 days in late 1944 and early 1945.(17:30)
He enjoyed his stay at Monterey. (18:37)
(18:50
Next he was sent to Corpus Christi Naval Air Station in Texas. (19:00)
Here he studied electronics (19:10)
He was here during VJ day on August 15th 1945. He and his fellow sailors did celebrate. (19:20)
He stayed at Corpus Christi for 6 months in 1945. (20:46)
He attempted to go to the Naval Academy in Annapolis. He was ultimately accepted into the
academy. (21:16)
While en route to Annapolis he visited his sister. She said that she had known a lot of Annapolis
graduates and you are not one of them. (21:55)
His sister’s son ended up being a Corporal in the U.S. Marines. (23:51)
Because of his sister's advice he turned down the opportunity to attend Annapolis. (24:24)
After turning down his invitation he was placed in Maryland for a brief period. (26:00)
He was then put into the Navel Air base on the Patuxent River in Maryland. He remembers this
Base being very large. (26:29)
Here he was sent to the electronic test. (26:45)
While here, he was an ATM 3 an aviation technician’s mate, 3rd class. (27:27)
While testing the radio signal on a bomber he had to tell the pilot to fly in a flat circle. The pilot
was irritated when being told how to fly his plane however the copilot liked his loyalty to the
orders. The copilot turned out to be Alan Shepherd. (29:38)
While looking for a hotel he considered one called the Roosevelt. When he checked in he found
that there were 75 WAVES staying at the hotel. (33:30)
While in Maryland he was very close to Washington D.C. and he enjoyed sightseeing. (35:30)
He was in Patuxent for approx 1 year until he returned to Red Wing, Minnesota.(35:50)
Discharge and post war life (36:00)
After leaving Patuxent he attended the University of Minnesota on veteran’s benefits. Here he
pursued communications in radio and television. (36:03)
He spent 30 years in radio and television. (36:36)
He was discharged after graduating from the University of Minnesota in 1950. (40:12)
He then decided to travel Europe alone. (40:40)
�
When he arrived in Europe he lived in France with a fraternity brother. (42:20)
While in France he met another touring American who would later become his wife. (43:49)
His wife passed away in 2000. She had Alzheimer’s disease. (44:36)
His 2 sons visit him regularly at the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans. (45:10)
One son lives in Kentwood the other in Kalamazoo, Michigan. (45:44)
He worked as an early morning news man for WMBD and eventually became the general
manager. (47:15)
After WMBD he was later employed by a Grand Rapids, Michigan broadcast company. (49:00)
He was then offered to go work at a Kansas City Radio station, KMBC. (50:38)
He later worked at KUZ in Wichita Falls Texas after KMBC in Kansas City. (54:54)
One of his sons moved with them there and received a degree from Midwestern State in Texas.
(55:12)
He did not join any Veterans organizations after his service. (55:38)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SundbergH1246V
Title
A name given to the resource
Sundberg, Harold (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sundberg, Harold
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Sundberg, born April 14th 1926 in Red Wing, Minnesota, served in the U.S. Navy from 1944 to 1950 during the end of World War II and the early part of the Korean War. During this time Harold spent much of his service studying electronics and radar at Great Lakes Naval Base in Illinois, Monterey California, and Patuxent River, Maryland. Though he never saw combat, this training was used to further Harold's career in radio and television.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Erichsen, Wallace (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-07-18
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2e0ba2655ab32c69d8f52f7b5c87f14.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Interviewee: Maria Sutherland
Interviewers: Kayla Burke, Jennifer Noth and Alex Suriano
Supervising Faculty: Danielle Lake
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 10/31/2011
Runtime: 00:43:32
Biography and Description
Maria Sutherland is from Cochabamba, Bolivia. She describes her experience as an
immigrant to the United States.
Transcript
Alex: My name is Alex Suriano.
Jennifer: And I‟m Jennifer Noth.
Alex: And we are here today, at 4 o‟clock P.M. with Maria Sutherland at Grand Valley
State
University. We are here today to talk about your experiences. Could you please give us
some
basic information about yourself?
Maria: As Alex stated, my name is Maria Sutherland. I‟m from Cochabamba, Bolivia. I
was born
there in the San Pedro Hospital. Um, my mom is also Bolivian, but her parents are both
American. My dad‟s American, I have two other sisters. One was born in the United
States and
the other one was born in Bolivia. I lived my entire life there, except for my seventh
grade year
and last year, um, my freshman year of college.
A: Alright, so you said you came in seventh grade to western Michigan and just the
states in
general, what was that like?
M: Basically, it was almost like a vacation because we were only here for like a year. It
was
pretty difficult though because I wasn‟t used to the culture but because I was still
younger it was
easier to get involved in different things and fit in.
A: And then you came back obviously for college as you‟re here right now, how was
that? We‟ll
just say, describe that experience.
Page 1
�M: At the beginning I was really excited because I was like, oh it‟s going to be so much
fun, the
United States, it‟s a different culture a different place to be. It‟s going to be really fun
and then
what I didn‟t realize is it‟s a totally different world. Like, the culture is incredibly different,
the
pace of things, the people, um, it just like overwhelmed me and I didn‟t realize what I
was
getting myself into.
A: Alright, so, how would you describe your own identity? Like, say, we were at an
icebreaker or
something and someone was like how-like just give us a basic description of yourself,
how you
identify yourself.
M: I feel like for me that‟s really hard but, I would identify myself as Bolivian because
even
though I don‟t look Bolivian, I was still born there, I grew up with that culture and that‟s
basically all I‟ve ever know except for like what my parents have taught me and living in
the
States for a little bit.
A: Okay. Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adulthood where
you felt
different or were treated differently? Back in Bolivia, if you ever felt like you were
different
from the people there, like when you first kind of realized that.
M: Um, I did feel different in Bolivia just because of my skin color. Some people would
treat
me differently because, well white people are always seen as, like they have the money,
they
have everything. So they either really suck up to you or they would just treat you like
you don‟t
belong here, what are you doing here? But, as soon as you get you know then, then all
that first
impression is gone, so. I kinda got used to that, at the beginning it being awkward and
then once
you get into the flow of things it was fine.
A: Alright. So, you are from Bolivia. How did coming here effect your thinking of your
identity? Like, did it change it at all or when were you really like, I identify as a Bolivian
completely because I don‟t really know the culture here.
M: If definitely broadened my overall thinking of my identity because before I just saw
myself as
I am Bolivian but at the same time I can speak english and both of my parents speak
English too,
they are America citizens. So, coming here actually made me realize, that there is a part
of me
Page 2
�that is also, I guess, American. But, in my, I don‟t know, always in my head I always
thought
more like a Bolivian so coming here made me realize that more so it‟s kind of like this
constant
battle of like am I Bolivian or am I trying to fit in America, like as an American or as like
my
own self. I don‟t know. It‟s kind of complicated.
A: That makes sense, it is kind of a unique situation to be it.
M: Yeah.
A: Alright, were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the
treatment of
Bolivians or just Latinos in general in society. If so, can you name one, a couple, as
many as you
want?
M: Well I think my parents, first of all, because growing up with Bolivians, I don‟t know,
they‟ve always had a special place in my heart. I guess no one has ever really been like
“You
have to care for these people”, but in a way I guess it was kind of the opposite because
of some
of the people that I really looked up to that I hung out with, um, well it‟s kind of
complicated
because in Bolivia there‟s like a lower class and then there‟s a higher class and the
people that I
really looked up to in the higher class really looked down on the lower class. And
through seeing
like, the hatred that they had for the lower class, that made me feel like even more
passionate
about the lower class and like caring about them. So I guess it wasn‟t really a certain
person, but
just like my like overall perspective on everything.
A: Okay. Do you remember family members, friends or people from your community
being
discriminated against? Either formally, informally. Just kind of like, in society, just people
you
know who were discriminated against or here people you know who are discriminated
against.
M: Um, my school was an international school but they strived to have like, 50%
Bolivians and
50% international students. And then it changed, like the board changed and when I
was in like
eighth grade, they were really, extremely racist. They were against everything, like that
the
Bolivians, I don‟t know, they just didn‟t like Bolivians. It was just obvious and by twelfth
grade,
every single person in my class that was Bolivian left because of all the discrimination
and that
Page 3
�like really hurt and like most of the teachers didn‟t like me because I was such close
friends with
the Bolivians that they even like discriminated against the people that hung out with
them. And
then even like here some of the people that I talk to, it‟s really crazy, because at least in
Bolivia I
haven‟t really noticed between Bolivians like, racism. But here I just feel like there‟s so
much,
racism and discrimination and it‟s brought up so much, I don‟t know, it just shocked me.
A: And you talk about racism here, like what group do you feel like is being-do you feel
like all
groups are being racist against all the other groups or is it like specific groups being
racist against
like other specific groups? Just kind of go into depth about that.
M: I think that there‟s definitely racism between African Americans and white people and
Latinos. But, like it‟s also crazy to see, I don‟t know, I feel like. I don‟t know how to
explain it.
I don‟t know-- because I haven‟t lived here long enough, but I don‟t know if, they‟re not
exaggerating like to the extent of that they‟re being discriminated against but I just feel
like they
have-they feel so much like they feel they‟re being discriminated against so profoundly
that it
shocks me. Like one of my friends just told me, he‟s a Latino and was just telling me
about how
sometimes he hates just going to certain clubs because when he walks in he can feel
like people
just don‟t want him there. And that‟s just like weird for me, and it‟s sad. And sometimes
you
think like, is it true? Or do you think that he just has that vibe and it‟s not really there.
You know
what I mean? I don‟t know.
A: Mhm, it makes sense. Alright now, do you have any civil rights heros nationally, or
locally
that like, people in history that have stood up for people and rights issues? Do you
understand
what I‟m saying?
M: Yeah. Well, I don‟t know. I really like Jacque Wara. He, I don‟t know if you know who
he is
but he stood up-well he basically helped, um, Bolivia gain it‟s independence and
everything and
I don;t know, he really helped the poor community because they were being, like,
obviously, the
higher elites were totally, like, taking control over them and making them do stuff that
they had
no control over. What they, like, they‟re lives you know? So I thought he was really cool
and
Page 4
�just the fact that he didn‟t even start out to do that, like he, just ended up seeing it and
realized
that something was wrong and he needs to change it.
A: So, you were talking about the international schools. Is there any-you said there were
Bolivians to start off with, was it the higher class Bolivians or like, the lower class
Bolivians,
that were looked down upon, they just chose a select few to come to the schools or-just
kind of
go into more depth about the schooling.
M: Um, because it was an international school, it was more expensive. So, the poor
Bolivians
couldn‟t really enter that, um, school. It‟s just really-I don‟t understand why they
discriminate
against them because the entire reason they were there was basically, they‟re in Bolivia
obviously, there‟s going to be Bolivian people there. it was just that, I think that maybe
one of
the reasons was it was just a very strict Christian school and because most Bolivians
are Catholic
or because they‟re not-I think they were more liberal that maybe that‟s why they didn‟t
like them.
A: Alright, did you ever experience the lower class schools or just see what they were
like as
compared to your international school?
M: Um, I have friends in like, other schools, like public schools, but I never really
experienced
them.
A: Okay, did they ever make comments about the public schools. Like, just comparing
them at
all, did they ever talk about like, “Oh our school is so...” anything? Did they talk about
their
school?
M: I think the school system probably was, well because there was more people, it was
probably
alot more disorganized but I‟m not really sure if there was a huge difference.
A: Alright.
J: Alright, um, so you went to one university, other than Grand Valley, last year, correct?
Um, tell
me a little bit about the diversity of it.
M: It was actually really diverse, because, um, it was a Christian university so lots of
missionary
kids went there and they were like, from all different places. And they were also
international
kids and it was actually really cool because they had a group for missionary kids and a
group for
international kids and it was really interesting because I actually met one of my best
friends there
Page 5
�and he was from Bolivia too and I had never known him until I got to Taylor. So, it was
really
cool and there was also a guy from Ecuador that I got to know too and I think it was
pretty
diverse.
J: Compared to Grand Valley, do you think it was more diverse?
M: Um, I think that it‟s kind of hard to tell because Taylor was a lot smaller, so, it
seemed like
there was lots of people from lots of different places but I‟m also pretty sure that, um,
Grand
Valley has a lot of diversity, like, I‟m in the Latino Student Union and like, there‟s still a
lot of
diversity and different places people are from and that‟s just one organization. And
there‟s so
many organizations on campus that I think that Grand Valley actually does have a wide
variety of
diversity.
J: Awesome. Um… Would you say that there are any landmark historic events that
happened like
within either Bolivian culture or your time in the States that you experienced?
M: Um I think, I think that one even that appeared while I was in Bolivia that was like
definitely
changed Bolivia was I was there when they elected the first indigenous president, and
he‟s
actually still president right now, and that‟s just a huge deal because.. Like he was
supposed to
represent the indigenous people which is something Bolivia has lacked for so long. So
that
definitely, even though he still hasn‟t represented the indigenous people, at least now
they still,
are getting their voices out, and that‟s definitely changing the way Bolivia is today.
J: Would you say that he‟s someone you look up to?
M: I‟d say that .. it‟s really hard because he‟s done a lot of things that are not intelligent
at all, but
at the same time I really like the fact that he doesn‟t do like what everyone expects him
to do,
you know? He does something out of the norm, which is I like I think is something that
Bolivia
needs like in order to change so…
J: Um…
A: Okay. So I know we were talking a little before the interview a little bit, and you
mentioned
some things about protests. So do you want to go into more detail, like what they were
about
just?
Page 6
�M: Usually there is a lot of protests and strike in Bolivia. Um a lot of this has to do with
things
like, they raise, All the sudden, they will raise the price of bread. They‟ll double it. Then
all the
stores will shut down, all the streets will get blocked, all the public transportation will
stop. So
basically everything shuts down until the people get their voices out and the
government, er yea
the government changes the policy. Um that also happens a lot with gas down there.
They change
the gas process a lot too. Right now they are actually trying to build a main high way
through the
amazon, the jungle, and like people have been protesting a lot about that.
A: Do you think that is a good or bad thing?
M: Definitely a bad thing because the only reason they, well I still haven‟t really
researched it
that much but, I think that the reason they are creating that is um basically they want to
take the
land resources, like the government wants to take it for themselves. So they are building
that
highway so that it will be easier for them to do that. Whereas there is this huge people
group in
that live in the jungle and are being exploited and they like don‟t even really know it. So
I‟m
definitely against it.
A: Okay. And then just, I know in our class we have been talking about how history is
taught in
America and the problems with that. When you were in the international school, do they
teach
mainly world history, or like do they teach Bolivian history, or like American history? Like
what
did you basically learn about history? Like if you had to like.. You‟re teaching a.. If you
like a…
remember back in like 5th grade or whatever, What were you learning about in history?
M: In 5th grade?
A: Well just back like in your education, like early on, what kind of stuff were you
learning?
M: Yeah. Well I remember in 5th grade, actually I do remember because we played this
game, and
I was horrible at it, but I remember that we were each cast put into different groups and
were like
all different countries. So I think it was more like, we like learned more about the world
than a
specific place and also the only place where I like really learned about the Bolivian
history was
Spanish class. Like we would read Spanish history books and yeah stuff like that.
Page 7
�A: And then did you learn like American history like at all? Or was it just kind of…
M: I did learn American history. I don‟t really remember that much about it.
A: That‟s okay. People in American really don‟t remember that much about American
history…
Um… Do you have any more questions Jenn?
J: Um…Not that I can think of.
A: Um maybe just going into more detail into history education, did you like learn about
the
World Wars, like Great World Wars one and two?
M: I actually learn about um WWI and WWII, and that actually really is one reason that I
want, I
started to learn German because it expanded my horizon and made me realize, like
how how like
I don‟t know. I always that World War One and World War Two were really like impactful
because it impacted like so many different countries and just like all the history that
goes into
like all really shocked me, and I really liked learning that stuff because it wasn‟t like
about just
one specific country. It was about so much… Diversity.
A: So you‟ve lived in uh the starts for about two years now. So you have gotten to
experience a
lot of like the cultural differences. What were like some of the major major things that
you see
difference between like Bolivian culture and American Culture?
M: One of the biggest differences, well there‟s a lot of differences, but the first one that
hit me
when I got to the States was the um punctuality of things here like… like for example
when I
first got there, there were a bunch of activities that freshman um would do and they
would be like
„ok we‟re meeting in 5 minutes in the hallway.‟ I‟d get there like 5 minutes late and
everyone
would be gone. And that is just like… first of all I was like ok I am only five minutes late,
like in
Bolivia if I was 30 minutes late everyone would still be there and would be waiting or like
half
of the people wouldn‟t be there yet and like secondly it was just, I don‟t know. In Bolivia
there
would always be someone waiting for you Like even if you were late. Like it was just the
respectful thing to do, so…. That was really different for me. Yeah…
A: Some other big differences? Like I remember you talked about like we kind of uptight.
Like
you cant cross, you have to cross the street here. You have to do this here.
M: Yeah, there are so many rules in the States. The um that‟s why I kind of I feel like I
ask a lot
Page 8
�of questions here and I also just kind of instead of really being able to be myself in a
way, like I
kind of have to sit back and observe because I don‟t know what to do in certain
situations or
what the norm is so yeah it‟s a lot different learning. Yeah it um… Another thing that I
realize is
a huge difference was the fact that in the United States is a lot more fast paced. Go go
go. And I
just remember that my sisters would always come back, cause they came here for
university too,
they‟d come back to Bolivia for the summer or something and they would always be like
„Oh I
was so stressed out like over there.‟ I was like „Oh I‟m never going to be like that.‟
Cause in
Bolivia I was never stressed out at all and then I came to the states and then like last
year I was
wahhh the entire time but no, I am getting used to it. I feel like I am a lot more laid back
now and
its weird because people would be like „You are so laid back‟ like when I would like still
feel like
uptight because I don‟t know of the society. I think, I just think that Bolivian society is a
lot more
relax, lay back and like people oriented and American society is more like um down to
business,
gotta get this done and then I will hang out with people. Yeah…
A: Okay. Any other big differences you can think of? Or even like little things, like „Oh
that‟s
weird‟ we like, just things that like are every day to you and like here they are unheard
of or like
vice versa?
M: Hmm… Well I guess one kind of weird thing is that down there I feel like is people
are a lot
more friendlier in the way that like you‟d go walking down the street and you wouldn‟t
know
anyone and you‟d just like „Hi‟ and they would just be like „Hi‟ blah blah blah blah. I don‟t
know, it would just be like super friendly, whereas here, sometimes if you like say hi to a
random
person walking down the street they just like look at you like you are a weirdo or
something. So
I‟m always like ok I‟m not going to do that, and then it was really interesting because I
was like
on the bus one day and I started talking to this guy randomly and then he was just like
„yeah I
could tell you were a transfer because people here don‟t just randomly start talking to
people.
Page 9
�Like that‟s just not what you do.‟ And I was like „what like what‟s wrong with being
friendly,
you know?‟ I don‟t know. It was just weird for me. Um.
A: Alright um.
M: Another thing that I found that was really different, is like um I don‟t wanna like… I‟m
not
trying to say that like the United States is bad or anything. It‟s just totally like different
culture
but I feel like the people here spend a lot of time buying things. Whereas in Bolivia I
would
never really buy things… So it‟s just funny because like during this summer while I was
working, like all of the girls that I worked with were like „Oh I can‟t wait until I get my
paycheck
so I can go out and shop and blah blah blah.‟ Like it was just weird to me to think that‟s
the first
thing they‟d spend their money on, is like clothes and accessories, I don‟t know
yeah….and like
another difference is, at least in Bolivia, in my city, there are poor people… everywhere
like
down the street, like there would be a poor person sleeping on the side of the street um
whereas
here you don‟t see that that much, and it‟s interesting because I um actually talked to
some poor
people here in Grand Rapids and it‟s just really interesting to see the difference
between like the
poor people here and the poor people in Bolivia cause the people here like.. I was
talking to this
one person and they were like telling me how there is different like soup kitchens and
stuff and
sometimes they don‟t go to this once place because it‟s nasty and they don‟t like that
food,
whereas like in Bolivia they don‟t have soup kitchens. They don‟t have homeless
shelters. So
like if you give them like the moldiest nastiest piece of bread they are going to eat it, you
know?
I don‟t know, it was just interesting to see the differences.
A: Eh if you can think of any other differences, we can keep going on those. If not, we
can move
on. Its up to you.
M: Um… Oh one huge difference. Well it‟s not a huge difference, but it was just
something that I
it got me mad because in Bolivia, there isn‟t that much diversity, and like... Well there is
a bunch
of diversity in like the fruit and like all the vegetables you get, but if you like go to the
super
Page
10
�market, like they have like one or two type of hot cocoa you know, for example.
Whereas you go
to a super market here and there is like an entire aisle of different like hot cocoas you
know? I
don‟t even know which one to pick and its crazy how much like they like have here in
the states
and yet like sometimes people are like „ugh I don‟t want this stuff. They should make a
new kind
of…‟ you know? When it‟s like there‟s so much of it. I don‟t know. It‟s crazy.
A: Alright um. So I think that‟s about, you covered the main differences, I feel like. You
said that
your dad was American and your mom was Bolivian or her parents were American.
What?
M: Yeah, that‟s kind of difficult. My dad is from Michigan, and my mom, she was born in
Cochabamba, the same place I was, but her parents were both American. So she has
American
citizenship and Bolivian citizenship like me, but…
A: Okay. So um what kind of made your dad and your grandparents like decide to move
from the
states to Bolivia? Was there any like, big factors?
M: Um I think that… well my grandparents were missionaries.
M: And, I think they started off in Ecuador, and then they went to Bolivia. And then I
think that
the reason why my dad went down there was he actually, he started dating my mom
and then my
mom went down there for like the summer or something, and then she came back up,
and then
he, I just think that he was just intrigued with all the stuff she was telling him about it and
stuff,
so he decided to go down there for a year, and he just really liked it. Like they weren‟t
even
married or anything, but he just really liked it and then he came back to the States, and
um, they
also got into mission work too, and so they decided to go back. And I don‟t know, I‟m
like really
glad that I did grow up like in Bolivia, like I would never change that experience, ever.
Like even
when I struggle with like, who I am as a person, because of like am I Bolivian? But like
when
I‟m in Bolivia I don‟t really fit in that much because I am white. But when I‟m in the
States, I
don‟t really fit in either because even though I‟m white, like I have no idea like about the
culture
and stuff, you know? Like, it doesn‟t…I still, like still have that passion for Bolivia there,
like I
wouldn‟t change a thing.
Page
11
�A: So, you said it was a very positive experience growing up in Bolivia?
M: Yeah. I definitely…it also opened my eyes, like, I don‟t know, it helped me see that
there‟s
more to life than just myself.
A: So, what would you say is your number one, all-time favorite thing about Bolivia, and
the
same thing for the United States?
M: Ok, number one thing would probably be the people, just because, well they‟re
warm, and
they‟re easy going-ness. Like you go to Bolivia, you go to someone‟s house, they have
no idea
who you are, but they will just be the most caring person to you, and like, Bolivians are
extremely hospitable. Like you will not leave their house unless you are like extremely
full, and
like anything they can do to make you happy they‟ll do it, like basically, yeah. And for
the
States, um, I don‟t know if I‟ve like found what I like best about it yet.
A: Maybe like some top things? If you can‟t pick a favorite, not your all-time favorite, but
just
things that you really like about the States. Like didn‟t you say ketchup?
M: Yeah, I just love American food cause it‟s so good. It‟s the best. They need to get
that in
Bolivia.
M: Yeah, but like I guess like I really like the different opportunities. Like in Bolivia, if I
had
gone to an University in Bolivia, I would already have to know my major, there are only
so many
specific majors I can have, you can‟t have a minor, like it‟s very like, there are only, you
don‟t
get all this opportunity that you get here. Also, there‟s like tons of clubs, like on campus.
Like,
the Middle Eastern club, the fencing club, the, you know, there‟s a bunch of like a
variety, like it
opens up so many different paths for you to take. Which I think is really cool about the
States.
Yeah. …..I also like the four seasons. Not really I hate winter.
A: I‟m guessing it never snows in Bolivia?
M: It does, but not where I live.
A: Like, up in the mountains?
M: Yeah.
A: Is it mostly like summer weather? Like what‟s the weather like in Bolivia would you
say?
Like just an average day.
M: Well, in my city?
A: Yeah. In your city.
Page
12
�M: Ok, in my city, well I live in like a valley, so it‟s surrounded by mountains, um, so it‟s
like
spring weather year round. So it‟s like sunny the entire year and then like a certain time
of year
is when it‟s rainy season. And then that‟s it. But there‟s no humidity, so it‟s so nice.
A: That sounds nice.
M: I know.
J: So um, going off cultural differences, and because of the fact that you don‟t know
much about
American culture, um, do you feel that people are ever really confused as to why you
don‟t, if
they don‟t know that you are from Bolivia? Like, are they ever like, „why don‟t you know
this?‟
You know? Like if they bring up something about American culture, and you‟re like „wait
what?‟ like are they ever confused like that?
M: Yeah, and then I‟m just like, I just have to be like „I‟m from Bolivia.‟ And they‟ll be like
„what? You live in Africa?‟…No I‟m kidding. But yeah, I get that a lot, a lot of people,
like,
almost everyone I‟ve met, doesn‟t think I‟m from a different country, just because, like I
went to
an International school, so I don‟t have an accent, I know English, I don‟t look like, like
I‟m
from Bolivia, so everyone just assumes that I‟m American. So, in a way, I don‟t know,
it‟s kind
of like, like I don‟t know, I‟m still debating on if I like the fact that I‟m white. But like
obviously it‟s a good thing because like I‟m white so, there must be a reason for it, you
know?
But, no sometimes it‟s nice because no one really knows me until they actually want to.
A: Ok and so also going off of culture difference, like is there any like culture shocks
here? Like
something you thought like „you guys really do that?‟ like, and Bolivia too, like things in
Bolivia
that like, you know would like be looked at weird here. ….do you need me to explain
more?
Like things that we do in America that you‟re like „what?‟ or like things that you do in
Bolivia
that people here would be like „what? You really do that Bolivia?‟ Like just like culture
things
like that.
M: Well, I know that people, well like people here would see and think that what people
eat in
Bolivia is crazy. Because, because what we eat, what one of the best dishes that they
have there
is cow tongue, like it sounds disgusting, like to most Americans, but it‟s so good. And
like, it
Page
13
�makes sense, like If you‟re going to kill a cow, like you might as well eat every part of it.
And to
them it‟s tasty. So, yeah, um, I really, um think that people in the United States would
think
that‟s really weird. Something weird here…um, let me think….
J: I know you were talking about one day, since you are my roommate, um , you were
talking
about how you had to get used to the toilet paper issue?
M: Oh yes! Ok, um, yeah like in Bolivia, you are not allowed to throw toilet paper into the
toilet, because it will clog the drains, or the pipes. So, when I got to the States, it was
the
weirdest thing, because I‟d go to use the bathroom, and I would be looking for the
trashcan. And
there would be no trash can around the toilet, you know? So I‟d be like, where I am
supposed to
put this? So, yeah finally I got used to throwing it in the toilet. But that was just really
weird for
me.
A: Do you ever forget when you‟re back in Bolivia and cause problems?
M: Yeah, when I first get back, I always forget. And that‟s really bad. My dad gets so
mad. …I
guess like one other thing, even though Bolivia is modernizing in this way, but they
usually use
forks and knives for everything when they eat there, like even like a wrap or something,
and like
here they don‟t do that. Like, you like eat with your hands, you know? So I just thought
that that
was really weird.
A: Yeah that is weird.
M: Yeah….Oh! Another huge weird thing, well this is something my grandma told me a
long
time ago. But um, she told me that she went to a restaurant and they were ordering
dessert and
stuff right? And the girl asked oh, my grandma asked here if the brownies were like still
in a
package or like handmade, and the girl was like, um, she was like what do you mean
handmade?
Like she didn‟t know that there was another way to make brownies, like she thought
they only
came in a package, like for me like it was like exactly the opposite. Like in Bolivia, we
make
everything from scratch, so to like have a brownie like from like a package, I was like
what?
That was so weird for me, even though they‟re really good.
A: Alright, well that‟s all of our questions, is there anything you would like just kind of like
to
Page
14
�add? Like to promote Bolivia, or just like…
M: Yeah, everyone should go to Bolivia. It‟s amazing. No, I‟m serious, um, we have
everything,
we have mountains, we have jungle, we have beach, I mean we don‟t have a beach, but
we used
to. We have planes, we have the most dangerous, um, road on earth, that you can go
biking on,
which is so awesome. And I don‟t know, like people there are just awesome and
their….everything is really cheap. That was another difference coming to the States is
everything is so expensive here I can‟t use any money! But, oh yeah, and just the fact
that like in
Bolivia as a high schooler, it‟s really hard to get a job, like it‟s almost impossible.
Whereas in
the States, there‟s like so much opportunity, even though like right now they say that it‟s
hard to
get a job, compared to Bolivia, it‟s not hard to get a job at all. So, that was like a big
difference
too. And it‟s like actually fun being able to work here, I felt really independent.
A: And where did you work?
M: Um, I worked at the catering service at my University, I also worked at um, in the
library of
my University, and I also worked as a hostess during the summer. It‟s really cool that I
like can
like actually work in a restaurant because someday I want to open my own café.
A: Alright, does anyone have anything else, like any more questions or anything else
you would
like to add?
M: Um, I don‟t know, just like the fact that I think it‟s really cool, like I never realized how
cool
it was to realize people‟s differences, like even like the difference between the American
culture
and the Bolivian culture. Like at first I was like „oh, I don‟t know if I could really ever be
really
close to any of them because like they come from such a different, like background than
me, you
know? But I think now, like I see it as a different way that like they‟ve grown up, but it‟s
like
really cool because it‟s a totally different culture and it‟s like really cool to like learn like
from
them and they can also learn from you, you know, because you‟ve like grown up from a
different
culture and a different background too, so I just think it‟s really cool like diversity is like
one of
my favorite things because like it‟s awesome, you have no idea what German, like what
it‟s like
Page
15
�to be a German. You grow up in Germany your entire life, you know, so I want to
promote
diversity.
A: Well, uh, thank you for your time.
M: Yeah, you‟re welcome.
A: It was a really great interview.
M: Yeah, thanks for interviewing me.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page
16
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5a99e39dff9a5659ae73c858d2115bb0.mp3
fecaa9873f4699f58577b92bddc3a25c
Dublin Core
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-05-02
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eng
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GV248-01
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1930-2011
Oral History
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GV248-01_Sutherland_Maria
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Maria Sutherland audio interview and transcript
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Sutherland, Maria
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Burke, Kayla
Noth, Jennifer
Suriano, Alex
Description
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Maria Sutherland is from Cochabamba, Bolivia. She describes her experience as an immigrant to the United States.
Subject
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Discrimination against Hispanic Americans
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
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2011-10-31
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cdf1ab4ca2e9169931e39b1c3eef8237.mp4
654d3f05c4e3e47b8451d711830eaa7f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d0e62bbd9b451f652400723c17917635.pdf
e300edc26d03bcb85dfacc98f26cd4e7
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Carol Sutton
Interview Length: (20.23)
Interviewed by Dr. James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: This interview is a joint production of WKTV voices, the Grand Valley State
University Veterans History Project, and the Silversides Museum in Muskegon, Michigan. We
are in fact at the Silversides Museum in Muskegon and we're talking first with Carole Sutton of
Muskegon. So, Carol, begin with some background on yourself and to begin with where and
when were you born.
I was born in Davis, West Virginia in February 23, 1940.
Interviewer: Okay and did you grow up there, or did you move around?
(1.02)
I grew up there until I was 18, then I went to the University and then transferred there to
Frances Payne Bolton School of Nursing in Cleveland, Ohio.
Interviewer: Okay, so let's back up a little bit, what was your family doing for a living when you
were growing up?
My dad originally worked in the mines and then he became an engineer on the railroad
and we had a garage and my brother-in-law ran that when my father was away.
�Interviewer: Okay and so with that, that helped you be able to finish stay in high school and then
go on to college? As they could afford to do that.
Right.
Interviewer: Alright and then what did you study in college?
Well I started out with basic courses towards my medical degree, and then I decided maybe
I don't want to do that, maybe I'll just be a nurse.
Interviewer: Okay so you were thinking about being a doctor?
Right and then I decided maybe math and chemistry were not my forte alright so..
Interviewer: So, did you then basically do pre-nursing or?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay but you did not get it, you weren't yet a nurse at the point when you finished
there?
No.
�Interviewer: Okay and so when did you leave college?
(2.13)
I graduated in 1963 okay and then I took a trip with some friends to Europe and- and then
we drove down and flew to North Africa and traveled around through the Middle East.
Interviewer: Okay.
And after that I joined the Air Force.
Interviewer: Alright so, I mean how did you wind up making that extended tour?
Well a friend of mine had a father that was in the Air Force in Tripoli, North Africa and so
we decided we want to go on a trip. So, we started saving our money and every time I
wanted to spend more money my friend would say, “remember we're going on a trip.” So,
it was a fantastic trip. We took a freighter to Europe and all young people were on it and a
young captain and it was a great experience.
Interviewer: Alright now was it just a group of- of women traveling together or did you have
some men?
No there were I think a couple people were men and one was going back home to Holland
and another to Germany, but I think there were more women.
�Interviewer: Okay but there was a whole group of you?
Yes, well the freighter only holds 12, so we had 11. Someone canceled at the last minute.
Interviewer: Okay how long did the trip on the freighter take?
(3.34)
Oh, gee it's been so long ago it was probably nine days or something.
Interviewer: Okay they do have decent weather or?
Oh, they said it was the nicest crossing that they’d had, and I thought well I wonder about
that, because you're still like this when you see the sky on one side and then the other.
Interviewer: Alright and so what countries did you visit?
We went all through Europe, like we ended in Belgium and then we went to Germany, and
France, and Belgium, Italy, and then we turned the car in and then flew to North Africa
where my friend's parents were and stayed there while right on the Mediterranean
enjoying the water. And then we went to Egypt, and Lebanon, Greece... it's so hard to
remember when all of a sudden, I start to think about it.
�Interviewer: Oh yeah, and I guess at that point the dollar was pretty strong.
(4.32)
Oh, it was very strong.
Interviewer: So, you could afford to do that kind of thing, you go a decade later it would have
been a little bit trickier.
Of course, salaries were less too.
Interviewer: Yeah. Alright so you kind of had your- your World Tour adventure and then you
came back and then nursing school was the next stop?
No, I'd already finished school.
Interviewer: Okay.
…and then I went to the Air Force, but we went to basic training in Montgomery, Alabama
which was a farce at that time for officers. They wanted us to at least be able to go through
the parade and the captain would say, “come on ladies we have to do this.” I mean it was so
lax and fun.
5.16
�Interviewer: Just to clarify, did you get through nursing training at West Virginia or was that at?
Well I did two years pre-West Virginia and three at Cleveland Ohio.
Interviewer: Right right, okay and then so you do that then you take your trip.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay how did you wind up joining the Air Force?
Well I planned to join the Navy and two of my friends decided, one to get married another
to go to Texas. So, I thought “hmm okay.” I just called up the Air Force recruiter, he came
right over. That's how it started.
Interviewer: Okay, and so then when do you actually arrive in Montgomery for your...
It was May sixty-five.
Interviewer: Sixty-five.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and is this Maxwell Air Force Base or?
�Yes.
Interviewer: Okay alright and the group that you're training with were they all women?
They- that was their class that had the most women of any of them, lucky for us there were
two men. And they had like psychologists and most of them were nurses. I can't remember
what the other one did but...
(6.25)
Interviewer: Okay and then just to clarify you're going in basically as an officer?
Right second lieutenant to start with.
Interviewer: Because nurses are all officers. Did they explain to you why you got to come in as
an officer?
No, I just seemed to know that you know, from being around a lot of people in the military.
Interviewer: Okay now that the basic training that you got, what did that actually consist of?
Well we did a camp out and went out in the swamps and found, what would you call it?
Like you'd find a little wooden things that would tell you where to go next, or I'm not
�trying to think what, not ingredients what you call it, coordinates or something. And that
was… and we didn't do too much. Met in the mornings and went over things all together.
And the campout was fun though.
Interviewer: Alright I mean did they try to- try to train you how to march or anything like that?
Just that part so that we could at least be in the parade at the end of the… the experience.
(7.37)
Interviewer: Okay, now sometimes for the men, at least for the enlisted men there's a lot of
attention to kind of the spit-and-polish. And how to wear the uniform and how to clean things.
Did you get some of that?
None of that.
Interviewer: Okay, they had just given up or weren’t trying?
I think at that time you know you're gonna be a nurse, and they didn't really think about
you're going out like to Vietnam like some of them went.
Interviewer: Yeah and of course in 65 it wasn't yet clear how much of that there was going to be,
because it's only beginning to escalate at that point. Alright now when you went there while you
�were training there did you consider the possibility that you might go overseas, or do you want to
go overseas?
Well I didn't really think about it at that time.
Interviewer: Okay, alright so once you've finished the basic training where do they send you?
To Wilford Hall, Lackland Air Force Base.
Interviewer: Okay Lackland is a big base in San Antonio.
Right, where they train.
Interviewer: Okay and then when you- what kind of reception do you get when you arrive there?
Well I was pretty nervous, but everybody was, you know, we already knew where we were
going to be in Wilford Hall, but it was just like anything else it's a little nerve-wracking to
start with until you adjust and kind of get your feet on the ground there.
(8.51)
Interviewer: Okay did they do anything to orient you or help you get acquainted with the place or
do they just, just you know…
�As far as I remember they orient you to where different areas are because it's a big area.
Interviewer: Okay, now describe the facility itself, what was Wilford like? how big was it? what
was there?
It was pretty big, I can't remember now what all was there, but I know I got assigned to
OB and gynecology. So, I spent most of my time there.
Interviewer: Okay and assumedly a lot of the patients were the wives of the men based there?
Right right right.
Okay and what kind of living accommodations did you have?
(9.33)
Oh, I lived in an apartment with two other girls.
Interviewer: Okay so you've got to be off the base?
Right.
Interviewer: Okay and did you have a car?
�Yes.
Interviewer: Okay and what was the daily routine like?
Well as far as my work?
Interviewer: Yep.
Well I started out being on days, just for a while to get oriented like. As being a nurse I
never drew blood before, so they sent me right to the lab to draw blood and my first patient
was a doctor and I missed on the first time. But after that then I didn't go there anymore
because we would draw the patient's blood just like their him hemoglobin hematocrit
would be drawn and sent down to the lab.
Interviewer: Okay and so then normally once you're-you’re in there what are you doing day-today?
Well just taking care of the patients, you know.
Interviewer: So essentially the same kinds of things nurses-
That you do in a regular hospital, yes.
�Interviewer: Okay now were there things about that job that made a different from being in a
civilian hospital?
I think pretty much the same at that time, because now they do so much more than we did
back then.
Interviewer: Okay and you said you worked days to begin with?
Yeah and then I was on evenings and nights depending on what your schedule was.
(11.02)
Interviewer: Okay and how long would the shifts be?
Back then it was only eight hours.
Interviewer: alright and then was it five days a week or six?
We had every third weekend off. So, it varied during the week.
Interviewer: alright and what was what- what was the atmosphere like there, just in terms of
being a young woman living in a place like this. I mean how did people treat you or…
�I don't think they treated me any different than most people do. I get along pretty well as
most people anyway. But I remember back then we had one nurse that was talking about,
she was so sad she couldn't go march with Martin Luther King back then.
Interviewer: Now was this facility, was this integrated? Did you have black nurses there?
Oh yeah, she was a black nurse.
Interviewer: okay and with their a fair number of black personnel on the base?
Oh yes.
Interviewer: Okay now this is still Texas in 1965-66.
Right yes.
Interviewer: When you go off the base were you aware at all of racial tensions or things like
that?
No.
(12.13)
�Interviewer: Okay so it just wasn't... and by then I guess you don't have segregated drinking
fountains or anything like that?
No, but one of the girls from the South certainly let us know how our northerners did not
know about being in the South.
Interviewer: Well what kind- were their customs or things that you weren't aware of? I mean
aside from the race issue that…
No.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now when you went into the Air Force how long did you expect to
stay?
I was expecting to be a career woman.
(12.49)
Interviewer: Okay.
And then I met my husband.
Interviewer: Okay.
�He was working, well on the labor and delivery unit and someone told him there was a tall
nurse over there. So, he came over to see who it was and talked to me off and on, and then I
thought, well I kind of liked him. So, I invited him over.
Interviewer: What were the rules for- for fraternization?
Well they were a little more strict then. And Michael had to get a, when we were going to
get married, he had to get some type of release that said, like “first lieutenant Carol Anne
Sutton” you know, and his name and everything. And they told him he can't go to the
officer's club and he said, “oh gee maybe I won't get married then.” He got into a little
trouble for that.
Interviewer: But it was- it was still allowable, it wasn't totally forbidden.
Yeah, right. They didn't encourage it of course.
(13.49)
Interviewer: Yeah well, the stereotype that you get at least for like a TV show MASH or things
like this. Is it's the nurses and the doctors are carrying on and so forth and you- you wind up with
an enlisted man?
Yeah.
�Interviewer: Now was that actually more common for if the nurses were gonna get involved they
might be getting lovely enlisted rather than doctors?
No, I think whatever.
(14.15)
Interviewer: Okay because I have had a nurse explain to me at some point that the enlisted men
were more your own age and had more in common with you, and the doctors were older and too
many were married. So, they shouldn't be doing anything.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay but this just kind of happened? Alright and then how does- so you- so when
do you get married?
We got married in July of 66 and then 11 months later he went to Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay and then what did you do while he was in Vietnam?
Work!
Interviewer: Okay, so you just stayed on?
�Right.
Interviewer: Alright now were you working longer than your contractual obligation? because
when you signed up…
Yeah, yeah you- I believe it was two years.
Interviewer: Okay, so you signed up and you had to be full-time active duty for two years.
Right at least.
Interviewer: Okay but you wind up extending and then staying for a third because at that point
you might as well?
(15.12)
Mm-hmm.
Interviewer: Alright and then while he was in, well I guess how did you feel about him going to
Vietnam?
I wasn't too happy about it because of course you're newly married and all in love and
excited and you worry that they're not coming back.
�Interviewer: Alright and then how much communication did you have with him while he was
overseas?
Well letters and then we used to send tapes and one time he was teasing me about I'm
talking about the rain and romantic and here he's sitting in a monsoon.
Interviewer: Alright and so that basically goes on for sort of your last year?
Yeah.
Interviewer: And then when he comes back from the service, now what happens?
Well we met in Hawaii after eight months or close to nine I think and then he came back in
68.
Interviewer: Okay so he had an R&R; to go to Hawaii.
Right.
Interviewer: And I don't know when he came out for the R&R; was he any different than he was
when he left?
(16.15)
�No, no at least I didn't see it
Interviewer: Okay, alright and then when he does come back, then do you leave the Navy or go
in reserves or what?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay and then once he comes back where do you wind up living?
Trying to think, was it Austin? Yes, yeah that's right yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and then he stayed in the Air Force?
No, he got out for I don't know if it's a year or two and then he went back in.
Interviewer: Okay and then did that put you then into the life of the military wife?
Before he went back in, I just worked as a nurse at the health center at University of Texas.
Interviewer: Okay and then he does go back in and you just follow him around to his
assignments and so forth?
Right.
�Interviewer: Alright when you think over the time that you spent, you know in the service are
there particular incidents or people or memories that kind of stand out for you?
You mean during all the times we were...
Interviewer: Well actually the time you were actually on active duty first.
Okay, no it was pretty standard right then you know, just doing our jobs and having fun
with friends on the weekends or whenever we're off okay.
Interviewer: Now you're at the base, you're at that hospital from 65 to 68 and that is a point
where of course Vietnam ramps up a lot.
Right.
(17.48)
Interviewer: Did you- did that affect the kind of business that you had at the hospital? I mean
were there casualties who would come back to that facility?
Well like I said I was in the OB/GYN most- all the time.
�Interviewer: Yeah, I know, were you aware what was going on at all or that these people were
coming in?
Yeah.
Interviewer: okay and did you pay any attention to things like the anti-war movement that was
going on or?
I really didn't pay too much attention to that.
Interviewer: Okay and did you follow the news of the war while your husband was over?
Right and I thought we shouldn't be there.
Interviewer: Okay and were there ever situations where you got news reports and you were
wondering was, he in the middle of that?
Not too much really. because a lot of the women that were there having babies and things,
you'd hear a lot about any of their husbands that were gone, and I can't recall any of them
that had a husband that had died. Because you had people coming in and out and…
Interviewer: Right, alright and I guess to look back on the time and the service, but aside from
getting you a husband, how do you think that affected you? or or or what did you learn from it?
�From being in the military you mean?
Interviewer: Yup.
Well like I said I had plan to be a career woman because I had seen so much camaraderie
when we were at the airbase in Tripoli, North Africa and that's why I thought I would like
to do that and have that camaraderie with other women that are staying in.
(19.30)
Interviewer: Alright and...
And that's what originally had gotten me to the point of going in really.
Interviewer: Okay and it did it work out that way?
Yes, but I ended up not being a career woman, not in the military.
Interviewer: Alright did you continue to work as a nurse or did you- after all that, so did you
work as a nurse in different places where he was assigned?
Yes.
�Interviewer: Okay, alright and so then and when did you retire from nursing?
Oh in 2000 when I lost my leg, we're still looking for it.
Interviewer: Okay, alright but that was not a service-related injury.
No, I should have told people it was.
Interviewer: Yeah make it much better.
Or a shark story.
Interviewer: Alright well thank you very much then for taking the time to share the story today.
You’re welcome.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_SuttonC2308V
Title
A name given to the resource
Sutton, Carol (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-06-07
Description
An account of the resource
Carol Sutton of Muskegon was born in Davis, West Virginia on February 23, 1940. She went to Frances Payne Bolton School of Nursing in Cleveland, Ohio, as well as West Virginia University after high school. After graduating in 1963, Sutton went on an extended international trip before joining the Air Force. In May of 1965, she underwent Basic Training in Montgomery, Alabama, and graduated as a Second Lieutenant since she was a nurse. She was then stationed at Wilford Hall in Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, where she met her husband in the labor and delivery unit of the hospital. They got married in July of 1966 before her husband was deployed to Vietnam. After his return in 1968, the couple moved to Austin, Texas and they both left the service. Sutton then worked as a nurse at the health center at the University of Texas before retiring in 2000.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sutton, Carol Ann
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Air Force
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/327343a0c254a9e6fb103235b5d73fbf.m4v
01f82c7cb25426ff922cd2126307da97
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b9acb382687d81377dad260d6e2d76b.pdf
651c4efc27e084693756fea09b685cfc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Richard Swanson
Length: 1:00:42
(00:15) Background Information
Richard was born in Lucas County, Iowa on January 1, 1930 and grew up on a farm
His father was a preacher and they later moved to a larger town when Richard was 10
He graduated from high school in 1948 and was sent to Korea in 1951
WWII had started when he was 12 years old and he often listed to the news of the war on
the radio; he thought it was fascinating
Richard had worked as a cab driver after he graduated from high school and then later
worked for Maytag
He received his draft notice just a few days after he had gotten married and was able to
get a 30 day deferment
(3:50) Training
Richard went through training in Arkansas, which was very fast paced and only lasted for
6 weeks
They spent a lot of time bivouacking; it was in November of 1951 and very cold
Richard had 30 days on furlough and was then sent to Seattle
He was going to serve as a replacement, but really did not know where he was going to
be sent
(5:30) Japan
Richard was sent to Japan on the United States’ second largest transport ship and it was
completely jam packed
He felt lucky because he had KP, so he never had to work on deck
Many of the men were sick for the whole trip, which lasted 13 days
They landed in Japan and then Richard was assigned to go to Osaka for chemical,
biological, and radioactive warfare training (CBR)
He only trained in CBR for one week and was then assigned to the 176th Artillery Unit
He felt that the training was kind of a joke and that just 1 week in CBR did not make him
feel very confident about what kind of action to take in the event of an attack
Richard began working with armored field artillery, which used self-propelled guns
(14:25) Combat
Richard was often sent out on patrol at 2 or 3 in the morning to check on wires
The Chinese and Koreans were very good at shooting bazookas, but did not work well
with artillery
�
They were supporting a South Korean infantry division
The men often had to go out to pick up enemy shells and their morale was really affected
when they found American names on the shells
US companies were selling arms to their enemies [or more likely the Chinese were using
American munitions captured from the Chinese Nationalists or from the Americans
during their earlier retreat in Korea]
(22:00) Leaving Korea
Richard’s unit did not take too many casualties; they were well armed with superior
weapons
A few days after Richard was sent back to the states his unit was heavily attacked and
many men died
Richard had spent 1 year and 4 months in Korea
(26:30) Civilian Populations
Richard received 5 days R & R in Tokyo where he spent most of his time eating and
seeing movies
They did not have much contact with the Koreans except for the outfit they were working
with
While in Korea, Richard felt that they were there to help save the South Koreans
He did not really feel like they were there to fight the Cold War or stop the spread of
communism
(32:29) Living Conditions
The men stayed in barracks in the mountains that were surrounded by sand bags
In the winter the temperature would get to negative 20 degrees, but it was so windy it felt
like negative 60 degrees
Then in the summer it would get very hot and Richard then worked on water patrol
There were many mountains and rivers throughout the countryside
(36:35) Comparing Armies
The Americans had some problems with the South Koreans because they sometimes tried
to take their telephone lines to use for themselves
The Chinese made their soldiers and the Koreans work very hard and dig holes through
the mountains for hiding
Many of the Chinese soldiers were all drugged up on morphine and did not fight well
The Chinese did not care about their soldiers or whether they died because they had so
many
The Americans fought with pistols, machine guns, 105 howitzers, and bazookas
�
The Chinese had hunting rifles for those in the front lines, but the men behind then only
had pitch forks and Billy clubs
The men often joked that the Chinese had only gotten into the war to help lower their
population
(41:55) Working in Korea
Richard drove trucks to the 38th Parallel to help haul supplies and ammunition
The North Korean terrain was filled with hills, mountains, rivers and very rocky
They did not see many civilians from North Korea, except for only a few rice farmers
The men ate c-rations, but also had cooks in their outfit and usually ate hot meals
Many men were being rotated out of the unit and being sent back to the states, but it
seemed like they were all there longer than they were supposed to be
Each replacement was trained differently depending on their title
(50:20) End of Service
After leaving Korea, Richard took a ship to San Francisco and then a train to Nebraska to
visit some relatives
He then went home on furlough and was later sent to Camp Carlson in Colorado to be
discharged
Richard got divorced shortly after returning from the service and later met his second
wife
They moved to Michigan after about 10 years and Richard began working for Gordon
Food Service in Grand Rapids
Richard later got a job working for USPS and continued there until he retired
His time in service gave him a different perspective on life, being able to see firsthand
how others lived in the world
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SwansonR
Title
A name given to the resource
Swanson, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Swanson, Richard
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Swanson was born in Lucas County, Iowa, in 1930 and graduated from high school in 1948. He received his draft notice in 1951, just days after he had gotten married. Richard went through training in Arkansas for only 6 weeks and was then sent to Japan to work with the 176th Artillery Unit. Richard spent 16 months fighting on the front line in Korea and worked to support a South Korean unit.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-01-06
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f42014801d8635e1aeaba91d7a98c7c8.mp4
29a085703ca03d14fead71530161f3d3
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6ff2eda0c0c5382e60623b24a0aca1b.pdf
e67e013e249534c38e18c143d8a88c41
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Thomas Swanson
(01:11:13)
(00:36) Background Information
• Born at Butterworth Hospital in Grand Rapids on February 26, 1958
• (1:00-1:40) He was a quiet and shy boy, who was picked on by his older brothers
• (2:10) His father worked at a GM diesel plant
• (2:25-2:44) Comes from a big family, 8 boys and 4 girls
• (2:54-3:37) Mom grew up on a farm in White Cloud. She met his father at a
square dance. They dated and later got married.
• (4:20-5:22) Thomas favorite childhood games were the war games
• (6:50-8:31) when to grade school at Saint John Vianney on Clyde Park. Attended
this school from the 3rd grade until the 6th grade.
• (9:22-12:21) His grandfather (his dad’s father) worked at a magic shop on
Division. He was also part of the magicians union and was in the lumberjack
league. His mother’s father was a farmer. His dad father would die when Thomas
was in the 6th grade.
• (12:27) School information
o (12:27-14:41) when to high school at Catholic Central High
Freshman year took 3rd place at the state championship for
wresting
Played defensive w
o (14:50-15:38) Junior year worked at [W.T] Grant
worked here for a year and a half
his title was stock boy
o (15:50-16:33) He was in the play “Guys and Dolls” sophomore year. He
was an extra. Also took 6 years of art in high school
o (17:03-17:30) Graduation was held at the Civic Center. His school
graduated with West Catholic
o (19:05-20:18) After graduation took the summer to try to find a job.
Worked for his uncle for a short while. The job did not last because his car
was not dependable.
(21:44) Enlistment/ Training
• (21:44-22:15) Joined the military in Grand Rapids on the NE side. He was put
through Detroit and then out. He joined the Air Force.
• (22:21-23:29) He decided to go the Air Force because basic training was only 6
weeks.
o Flown to Detroit for the major physical
o Swore In here
o From Detroit to San Antonio, Texas for basic training
(25:29-26:24) Got up at five in the morning
Had breakfast, then headed to the P.T field
�
First couple of weeks was physical training, testing, and shot and
immunization
Later was physical marching training and discipline
(28:25) Active Duty/ Family Life
• (28:25-30:18) Received word on what he was going to be. He was an
instrumentation mechanic.
o When to Denver Colorado for training
o Was at technical training school for a year
o Here is where he met his wife
• (32:17- 34:20) Met his wife at the military base. Met her through a friend. The
couple would get married while in Denver.
• (34:30-38:47) Received orders for his permanent duty station. He was a
detachment out of New Mexico… to Yuma improvement ground southern section
o While here gather info by testing structures to see how they could
withstand a blast.
• (38:49-40:28) Got his good conduct metal working with Kurtz
o Helped him with the invention of the time of arrival detector
• (40:38) He lived off base, him and his wife bought a house.
• (41:32-44:20) The duo had their 1st child in Arizona. It was a girl they named
Lianne.
o His wife almost lost her life during the delivery. She was bedridden for
eight months.
(45:04)Work History
• (45:04-49:58) He finished his service in 1980 and went back to Michigan. He
started looking for a job, worked at Laser Alignment for 3 years.
• Laid off from Laser Alignment and soon after got another job at C&D
Electronics.
o Worked here for 3 years also
• (49:28-49:58) Later worked at Smith and Anderson which is a 2way radio
company.
• (51:03-52:10) Just before he left the service his wife was pregnant with John
Tom, born in the 80’s. There was no problem with his birth.
• (52:19-53:40) Worked at the 2way radio company for 2 years. Quit this job
because they kept promising tools which he never received. Plus the job was not
going anywhere.
• (53:46-55:15) Worked at Diamond Maintenance doing janitorial work
• (55:20-56:09) Worked for an employment company processing metals
• (56:10-57:33) Kennedale Furniture Company
o moved from the glue department to the sanding department
• (57:34-59:46) Circuit shop
o worked in car stereo department
o worked here for 12 years
• (59:47-1:01:17) restaurant work
o his dream job
�•
•
•
(1:01:25-1:03:30) while working for the circuit shop, he was divorced. The
divorce came in the year 1990.
(1:05:07-1:06:14) Worked at Gathering Place on Cascade.
o Started as a dishwasher worked his way up to a prep cook basically
becoming an all-purpose worker.
o Here until 2001
(1:08:55) Came to the Home for Veterans in February and loves it.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SwansonT
Title
A name given to the resource
Swanson, Thomas A. (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Swanson, Thomas A.
Description
An account of the resource
Thomas Swanson served in the U.S. Air Force between 1976 and 1980. He trained in Denver, Colorado, as an instrumentation mechanic, and worked on the testing grounds at Yuma, Arizona.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-04-02
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d0d30f890b7b0046c2523a333bb50f39.mp4
0ffa456dcbe3920a1ab9edd69d8b484c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/93bb01ca2ccfebaf0aeed53acd8b9f8e.pdf
a87c9340f45287713a5f9a52d4e52288
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Charlie Swendsen
World War II
Total Time: 56:30
Guided Tour of the USS Silversides (00:00)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
(00:00) Explanation of the deck gun, noted that it was initially 3 inches but then it
changed.
(02:15) Insignia on the side of the vessel.
(03:30) Explanation of torpedo loading.
(04:45) Describes the procedures for the lavatory.
(06:00) Notes more of the torpedo procedure.
(08:45) Highlights the experience of being depth charged. Recalls an experience
of being depth charged for several hours on different occasions.
(11:19) He remembers being just of the coast of China when the war ended. He
was on the USS Haddock at the time. They took the ship to Staten Island, New
York to be decommissioned.
(14:10) Describes the process of aiming and firing the torpedoes.
(17:25) They used to put together a message after the attack and then they would
enjoy whiskey afterwards with the skipper, Burlingame.
He tried to join the Navy, but the draft board would not let him initially. However
he ran into a man who told him to talk to a newspaper editor who was a Navy
officer who was able to get him relieved from the draft board to join the Navy.
(23:36) Shows the mess hall on the ship.
(24:11) Shows some of the quarters for the men on the ship.
(25:10) Explains some of the aspects of the control room. This was where he
worked when he was on the ship. He also explains several of the different
procedures that took place in the engine room.
(32:55) Shifts were 8 hours on, 8 hours off.
(35:05) Shows one of the hatches to get out of the submarine.
(36:10) On one occasion, there was an appendectomy performed on the ship,
which was a very rare occurrence. They were depth charged right after the
operation.
(40:05) Mess hall tour. Explains some of the different meals that were served.
Smoking was allowed in the submarine except for when the boat was in a combat
situation.
(46:05) Shows the bunk where he slept when he was on the submarine.
(51:00) Explains the different effects of seasickness. Explains one instance where
he became seasick and was given a dill pickle to eat by the cook, which made him
feel better.
(54:35) He explains the sonic targeting capabilities of some of the torpedoes they
used.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SwendsenC
Title
A name given to the resource
Swendsen, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Swendsen, Charles
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Swendsen served on the USS Silversides and the USS Haddock during World War II. In this interview, he gives a guided tour of the Silversides, which serves as a museum in Muskegon, Michigan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Montagna, Douglas (Interviewer)
Great Lakes Naval Memorial & Museum (Muskegon, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-06-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa4cb048ca5960295bc1128842dfe817.m4v
6e5954bd6b3d83dbf3084bf8619d4ced
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/835ede6e82c1bcd3128b50232a958032.pdf
1dd42c2bbba6b986a1888517e9c85291
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Vernon Swim
Cold War; Vietnam War
23 minutes 56 seconds
*Note: Times in outline correspond with timecode on tape
(00:59:21) Early Life & Becoming a Chaplain
-Born in Jefferson City, Missouri, in 1935
-Entered the Army as a chaplain in 1962
-Army chaplain came to his church during his senior year of high school
-Inspired Vernon to enlist in the Army as a chaplain
-Had to complete college, seminary, and do two years of ministry before that
-Going into the chaplaincy was something new for his denomination
-Completed seminary in 1961
-Had to wait to be called into the chaplaincy by the Army
-Pastored at a church in Orangevale, California, for a year
-Army contacted him and said there was a spot open if he wanted to become a chaplain
-Asked his superintendent for permission, and it was granted
(01:03:00) Training & First Assignment in South Korea
-Sent to Fort Slocum, New York, for the basic chaplain’s course
-Originally assigned to the Presidio of San Francisco
-Orders were changed for South Korea
-Stationed in Korea from 1964 to early 1965
-Part of the 2nd Brigade of the 1st Cavalry Division as the brigade chaplain
-Very close to the demilitarized zone
-Started off with 2nd battalion (an armored unit) before becoming the brigade chaplain
(01:05:01) Stationed at Fort Carson
-After his tour in Korea, he was assigned to Fort Carson, Colorado
-Easy transition, and happy to be back in the United States
-Became the artillery chaplain at Fort Carson
-Learned about the 105mm, 155mm, and 8 in. howitzers
(01:06:44) Stationed at 98th General Hospital, West Germany
-Next assignment was in West Germany
-Able to go to West Germany with his wife
-They’d met at Fort Carson because she was an Army nurse
-Got married so they could go to Germany together
-Assigned to the 98th General Hospital as the hospital chaplain for three years
-Worked with his wife in the hospital
-There was a train that stopped next to the hospital and went to other Army hospitals
-Way to evacuate wounded personnel in the event of a Soviet invasion
�(01:08:26) Tour in Vietnam – Long Binh Jail
-During his tour in Vietnam, he was assigned to the Long Binh Jail
-Held American soldiers serving time in Vietnam
-Half of the prisoners were white, and half of the prisoners were black
-Led to some racial tensions in the jail
-Moved into the new prison facilities during his time there
-Had a very nice chapel
-Always packed with prisoners for Sunday services
-Most likely because the chapel had eight air conditioners
-Noticed some of the prisoners had musical talent
-Brought some instruments to the prison so the prisoners could play during services
-His chaplain’s assistant was an excellent guitarist
-Played music for the prisoners
-Therapeutic, especially for the soldiers in solitary confinement
-Army learned that the chaplain’s assistant was planning on writing an article about Long Binh
-Led to the soldier being reassigned, but the article still got published
-Didn’t cause Vernon any problems
(01:13:00) Family Counselling Pt. 1
-After Vietnam, he was sent to the American Institute of Family Relations
-Sent there to get his master’s degree in marriage and family therapy
-One Catholic priest decided to leave the priesthood and get married
-Went there around the end of the Vietnam War
-Army needed counsellors to help with family conflicts after soldiers returned from deployments
-Women had become independent which shocked the men after they came home
(01:15:35) Stationed at Fort Lee
-Assigned to Fort Lee, Virginia
-Worked in the main post chapel
-Specialized in family counselling and marriage therapy
-Pre-marriage counselling and divorce counselling
-Did some work with an in-patient drug and alcohol abuse program
-Held parenting classes
-Those were especially popular and he always had a waiting list
(01:16:35) Family Counselling Pt. 2
-His experience with family counselling helped him later in his career
-Stationed at Walter Reed Hospital, but lacked clinical pastoral education
-Note: CPE is for chaplains that plan on serving in hospitals
-Family counselling counted as a strong substitute
-Made the chief of the department at Walter Reed
-Had other personnel to help him, too
-While at the 98th General Hospital the Army was experimenting with CPE
-Had a pilot program
-Chaplains working with medical staff from other hospitals
�(01:18:37) Stationed at Berchtesgaden, West Germany
-Ultimately did 24 years of active duty
-Had good assignments throughout his career
-One of his best assignments was in Europe
-Personnel staff from the chief of chaplains told Vernon he would be assigned to Europe
-Vernon had wanted to be assigned to Fort Benning, Georgia
-Told Vernon he would be assigned to the retreat center in Berchtesgaden
-Berchtesgaden was a great assignment at a beautiful location
-Coveted position with at least 50 chaplains requesting it each year
-Never worked harder than during that assignment
-Every denomination came to Berchtesgaden for their retreats
-Best musicians, clergy, etc. from the chaplaincy
-Baptized his oldest child in Berchtesgaden
(01:21:52) Reflections on Service
-Glad he was in the Army chaplaincy when he was in it
-Has heard rumors that the Army has become more restrictive with the chaplaincy
-Loves the chaplaincy as a form of ministry (prison, hospital, police, industrial, etc.)
-Loved being in the Army chaplaincy
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_SwimV2073V
Title
A name given to the resource
Swim, Vernon G (Interview outline and video), 2016
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-26
Description
An account of the resource
Vernon Swim was born in Jefferson City, Missouri, in 1935. He entered the Army chaplaincy in 1962 and completed his basic chaplain's course at Fort Slocum, New York. His first assignment was in South Korea with the 2nd Brigade of the 1st Cavalry Division, and he served there from 1964 to early 1965. Upon returning to the United States, he was stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado, as the artillery chaplain. After Fort Carson, he served at the 98th General Hospital in West Germany for three years with his wife who was an Army nurse. Vernon served a tour in Vietnam as the chaplain at Long Binh Jail, working with the American soldiers imprisoned there. After his tour in Vietnam he was sent to the American Institute of Family Relations to get his master's degree in marriage and family therapy, which allowed him to be a family and marriage counsellor at Fort Lee, Virginia, and Walter Reed Army Medical Center. He did a second tour in Germany at a retreat center in Berchtesgaden. He ultimately served in the Army chaplaincy for 24 years (most likely retiring in 1986).
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Swim, Vernon G.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Keizer, Herman Jr. (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/044b00b05f92325eee1a022f06a5c1eb.m4v
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Simeon Switzer
Iraq War and War in Afghanistan
(00:00:42) Early Life
-Born on August 10, 1985 in Bogota, Colombia
-He doesn’t know much about his early life
-Knows that he was transferred to several foster homes then an orphanage
-He was adopted on July 23, 1987 and became a naturalized U.S. citizen later that year
-He grew up in Jenison and then Grandville, Michigan
-His father was a physician and his mother was a social worker
-She left her job to homeschool him and his siblings through the tenth grade
-For eleventh and twelfth grade attended Tri-Unity Christian High School
-Graduated in June 2003
(00:02:10) September 11 Attacks
-He was in his U.S. History class talking about current events
-Remembers seeing his teacher get a text message in the middle of class
-The principal addressed the school over the intercom and said there were some plane crashes
-Shortly after the truth became evident classes were cancelled
-Students were gathered in the auditorium where there were a few large televisions
-Able to watch the news throughout the day of the events unfolding in the country
-The September 11 Attacks only reinforced his desire to go into the military
(00:03:47) College and Enlisting
-He had always been fascinated by American military history
-Grew up reading about American war heroes and past American conflicts
-In his senior year he began to talk with a Marine recruiter
-His father advised him to at least try college before he enlist in any branch of the military
-He attended college at Cedarville University, Ohio from 2003-2005
-Found it to be a great school, academically challenging, but difficult to adjust to
-Transferred to Grand Valley State University in Michigan
-At that point decided to look into his options concerning the military
-Talked to a friend that had completed basic training for the Michigan National Guard
-Went and talked to a National Guard recruiter who wound up being unhelpful
-He ultimately enlisted in the Michigan National Guard in May 2006
-He scored high on the ASVAB (military entrance exam)
-His high scores made him eligible for an intelligence position
-Want to serve in the infantry instead
-Felt that it was a more challenging and more rewarding specialization
-The ASVAB basically gauges a person’s intelligence and aptitude
-Finding out what you’re smart enough to do, and what you would be good at doing
(00:09:25) Basic Training
-Basic training began on July 12, 2006
-He flew down to Atlanta, Georgia then took a bus to Fort Benning, Georgia
-He was part of the 30th AG Reception Battalion for two weeks before starting training
-For basic training he was assigned to Bravo Company 1st/150th Infantry Training Regiment
�-At the beginning of training he had difficulty with the transition into military life
-He was out of shape (scored second to last on the physical examination)
-The mental adjustment was difficult for him as well
-The primary focus was to breakdown the concept of individuality
-Make individuals into soldiers, and thus part of a unit
-Difficult for him because he was stubborn, independent, and antiauthoritarian
-Trained with both small arms (rifles) and heavy (rocket launchers) weapons
-Received land navigation training and infantry tactics training
-Remembers that the temperature was 90oF, humid and all around exhausting weather
-They were told they would be facing 100oF+ weather in Iraq
-He trained with men who were going to go into active duty
-He was one of only sixty National Guardsmen returning to their home state
-At the time the active duty and Guardsmen had the same experience
-No one had been deployed, and thus there was nothing distinguishing
-Drill sergeants would pick on the National Guard recruits
-They were the only ones allowed to do that though
-If an active duty recruit picked on Guardsmen the drill sergeants would intervene
-All but one of his drill sergeants had been already been deployed
-He learned that deployments mattered in the Army
-Soldiers, and especially leaders, were respected if they had been deployed
-The one drill sergeant that had not been deployed was not respected
-Basic training lasted sixteen weeks
-He graduated from basic training on November 10, 2006
-Remembers that it was in the sixth week that he finally made the full transition
-He and the other recruits were sent to the “gas chamber” for poison gas training
-Entered wearing gas masks and then the chamber was filled with tear gas
-Ordered to remove gas masks and take a deep breath of tear gas
-While choking had to give name and social security number before leaving
-Because he was out of shape he was sent back in to do it again
-Second time wasn’t so bad
-At that moment realized he could complete basic training
-By the end of basic training succeeded in physical training, weapons training, and leadership
(00:20:22) Assignment to Charlie Company
-He returned to Michigan after completing basic training
-His first drill with the National Guard was in January 2007
-He joined his unit and was greeted by the staff sergeant of that company
-Told that deployment orders were probably coming, so expect it
-In February (or March) received their preliminary orders
-At the end of the summer of 2007 received official order
-His unit was Charlie Company was 1st/125th Infantry Regiment at the Grand Valley Armory
-Trained at Fort Custer and at Camp Grayling with them (both located in Michigan)
-It was the first deployment for half of noncommissioned officers and most of enlisted men
-In his platoon most of the senior leaders had been deployed already
-He and the rest of his unit went through normal training, but with a more intense attitude
-Training would last longer, they would work longer on a particular area
-Basically preparing for the reality of being deployed
�-They did at least eight to nine weeks of nothing but training before deploying
-They did three weeks at Camp Grayling, Michigan
-Two weeks at Camp Atterbury, Indiana
-Two weeks at Fort Custer
(00:24:47) Deployment to Iraq
-In November 2007 they received complete orders for a deployment
-On January 5, 2008 they had a farewell ceremony at the armory
-From the armory took buses to Gerald R. Ford International Airport
-Flew down to Fort Hood, Texas
-Stayed there for three months receiving more training
-Given a four day pass to see his girlfriend and family
-From Fort Hood flew to Bangor, Maine
-From Bangor to Sherman Island, California
-From Sherman Island to Kuwait City International Airport, Kuwait
-Took buses to Camp Bhuering, Kuwait
-From Kuwait travelled to TQ (Al Taqaddum), Iraq
-From TQ (Al Taqaddum) got transported to their base in Iraq
(00:26:10) Pre-Deployment Training at Fort Hood
-At Fort Hood had to qualify in several areas to be able to be deployed to Iraq
-Pass medical exams to make sure you were healthy enough to be deployed
-Had to qualify with weapons
-Had to complete language and cultural competency courses
-Received more land navigation training
-Received convoy security training
-He was part of the largest deployment in Michigan’s history
-The primary mission they were training for was to provide convoy security
-About one month before being deployed Charlie Company’s orders were changed
-Their new task was to be part of a Personal Security Detail (PSD) in Ramadi
-It was a shock to all of a sudden be shifted into operating solely out of Iraq
-Originally thought that they would be spending a decent amount of time in Kuwait
-He learned enough Arabic to help keep himself out of trouble with the locals
-Basic commands and basic greetings
-He picked up the language fairly quickly
-Led to him primarily being placed at checkpoints
-Most face to face time with locals and requiring high language competency
-The cultural competency training focused on introducing soldiers to Arabic culture
-Common cultural practices
-How they eat, and just how they live
-Learned certain customs
-Point with the whole hand, not just one finger
-Thumbs up is basically equivalent to “the finger”
(00:31:44) In Kuwait
-The best training that he felt he received was while he was in Kuwait
-Stayed in Kuwait for about two weeks
-Received live fire combat training
-Running “shoot houses”
�-Clearing a house in a mock drill with live ammunition
-Move and shoot training
-Remembers that Kuwait was miserably hot
-Part of being in Kuwait was getting adjusted to the Middle Eastern weather
(00:34:15) Getting Established in Iraq
-Went to TQ from Kuwait and late at night got picked up by Marines
-Given only one magazine of ammunition for the trip
-Travelled in flatbed trucks without substantial armor to Ramadi
-He was so exhausted that he wasn’t concerned about being attacked
-Wound up sleeping on the ride there
-When he and the rest of Charlie Company arrived Ramadi was in the middle of a sandstorm
-A sandstorm that would wind up lasting eleven days
-They had to find a place to sleep since arrangements hadn’t been made for them
-The Marines didn’t even know that they were coming
-C Company found a bombed out Iraqi barracks and got established there
-They had to scavenge cots just to sleep on, as well as other material
(00:39:09) Duties in Iraq
-For the first month they were all assigned to watchtower duty
-Had to stand guard for about ten to twelve hours
-After the first month started working with the Marines on the Personal Security Detail
-Going into Ramadi to escort key personnel
-NATO officials, businessmen, electricians, educators, etc.
-During PSD missions got to see the university and various business schools
-Provided security during transport of personnel and during their meetings
-Aside from doing PSD work they would also go on patrols in the city
(00:41:29) Ramadi, Iraq
-By the time he arrived in 2008 Ramadi had quieted down
-The city was a “complete dump”
-Ravaged by war
-Saw buildings riddled with bullet holes or half destroyed by bombs
-Poverty was rampant
-There were Coalition and Iraqi forces patrolling almost the entire city
(00:42:33) Conditions in Iraq
-Conducted PSD missions for the next eight months of his tour to Iraq
-It was a pretty calm deployment to Iraq
-Didn’t get into an active firefight and didn’t have to kill anyone
-Felt strange to be an infantryman, conditioned to fight, and then not have to fight
-Initially wanted to see some action
-Halfway through his deployment his attitude changed
-His roommate was in a convoy that suffered an IED attack
-Initially didn’t know if his friend was dead, alive, or alive and wounded
-It wasn’t because he was afraid to fight, but realized that it was serious
(00:46:56) Interactions with Iraqis
-Most of the interactions with Iraqi civilians were positive
-Remembers one Iraqi businesswoman who was incredibly grateful that the U.S. had come
-Ramadi’s mayor was corrupt and wound up embezzling $120,000 donated to the city
�-Only one example of corruption at the highest level in Iraq
-The Iraqi officials loved the U.S. because it meant they could get quick, easy money
-Iraqi women were the most appreciative because of the new opportunities given to them
-The overall consensus was that Iraq was better, but there was still a lot of corruption
-There were more opportunities for the youth and for the women of the country
-Saw that it was actually quite a peaceful country aside from the fighting
-There was not as much animosity from the Iraqis as there was from the Afghans
-An example of how calm the deployment was and how peaceful Ramadi was:
-There were only a few IED attacks in the city that didn’t cause too much damage
(00:50:43) Downtime and Contact with Family
-He never had a cellphone while he was in Iraq
-Mostly relied on email as his primary source of communication with home
-There was a computer building with ten computers and three phones for the soldiers
-He learned that his dog died while he was in Iraq
-Only time that he remembers crying while in Iraq
-He learned not to create communication habits
-For example: he would only call, or email once a week, or every other week
-He didn’t want his family used to hearing from him everyday
-Because if he got too busy and didn’t one day then they would worry
-He did write a letter every day and received mail every day
-There was a huge gym on base
-There was a small market on base
-Iraqis could sell their wares; you could buy Green Bean Coffee, and smoothies
-There were two mess halls on base
-One was nicer than the other
-The base had a 5.4 mile perimeter and there was a berm in the middle of the base
-You could go up on the berm and overlook the city when the sandstorms stopped
-At night you could go out and see more stars than you ever had in your entire life
-There was a small church on the base for the soldiers
-There was a small PX (general store) for tobacco, energy drinks, and sugary snacks
(00:55:20) Coming Home from the Iraq Deployment
-He got back to the United States on December 23, 2008
-They flew in to Fort Hood and stayed there for five days of processing
-Medical processing and getting readjusted to American society
-They had already done a lot of social readjusting while in Iraq
-He didn’t quite understand the profound effect a deployment could have
-Learned that your life had been paused while everyone else’s continued
-He took the winter and summer semesters of college off
-Went back to college for the fall 2009 and winter 2010 semesters
(00:59:27) Transfer to the Military Police (MP)
-Transferred to the 144th Military Police Company in April 2009
-In 2010 went to Military Police School
-After that went to a leadership school
-The decision to transfer to the Military Police came as a result of a fight in Iraq
-He had a fight with a platoon sergeant in Iraq which ruined his chance of promotion
-His girlfriend at the time was also in that MP unit which influenced his decision
�-Went to Fort Custer, Michigan for four weeks of MP School
-Consisted of learning how to properly fill out paperwork
-Infantry skills that he already knew from his time in Iraq
-MPs were starting to also be used in infantry roles in Iraq and Afghanistan
-It was strange to go from an all-male unit, to a unit that also had women in it
-The training was nothing new for him
-He also didn’t have to go through basic training again because of transferring
(01:03:50) Problems Adjusting to Civilian Life
-The major issues came after his deployment to Afghanistan
-After coming back from Iraq he didn’t have a lot of direction in life
-Had to get a job and go back to school, but from there didn’t know where to go
(01:05:02) Deployment to Afghanistan
-He joined the Military Police and was originally assigned to the 144th MP Company
-He decided to take a promotion that was offered in the 1775th MP Company
-The promotion also came with a deployment to Afghanistan
-Decided to take the deployment
-He wasn’t ready at the time to take on the full responsibilities of adulthood
th
-The 1775 received its warning orders and then its official deployment orders
-The 1775th was basically a collection of Military Police from all over Michigan
-Also had a lot of soldiers with combat experience, especially in his platoon
-His platoon sergeant and all the squad leaders had been deployed
-Left on January 27, 2011
-Prior to leaving went to Camp Grayling, Michigan for a couple weeks of training
-Left out of Pontiac, Michigan
-Flew from Detroit, Michigan to Fort Bliss, Texas
-Stayed at Fort Bliss for about one month going through deployment training
-Took new language and culture courses for Afghanistan
-Different languages and culture in Afghanistan
-Much stricter culture to work with in Afghanistan
-Flew from Fort Bliss to Kandahar Air Field, Afghanistan (KAF)
-While at KAF there was a mission change for the 1775th
-Most of the company would be sent to a nearby combat outpost
-His squad was selected for Personal Security Detail for the company commander
-Took a convoy to Combat Outpost Sheridan after landing at Kandahar
-Just as they got into KAF there was a rocket attack on the airfield
-For the first month in Afghanistan carried out PSD missions for the company commander
(01:12:10) Leave in Afghanistan
-After being in country for only one month he was able to go home for leave
-He was the first to go home for leave because he was the senior enlisted soldier
-He knew how to handle a deployment unlike the new soldiers
-He went home for about fifteen days and visited his family and girlfriend
-After returning to duty realized he had nine months of nothing but deployment
(01:12:55) Duties in Afghanistan
-During the first month in Afghanistan he didn’t do much
-Went into the city with the unit that his unit was replacing
-The unit they were replacing had been involved in the Abu Ghraib Incident
�-Got to know the area and got introduced to the Afghan National Police in the area
-As soon as he returned to Afghanistan from his leave the mission was changed
-His unit would link up with a Canadian Special Forces unit
-Train with them for a couple weeks
-Then be placed in charge of a Provincial Response Company
-Basically like an Afghan SWAT team
-First time that non-special force troops were going to do this
-His unit was moved to Combat Outpost (COP) Graceland
-A Canadian base
-It was a great base to be stationed at
-Used to be one of the bases for the Taliban’s head leader
-They had a “shoot house” to train in
-While at COP Graceland they were introduced to the Afghan National Police in the area
-Conducted a few police raids with them
-Stayed at COP Graceland for a couple weeks before being transferred again
-From COP Graceland moved to Forward Operating Base (FOB) Walden
-They were assigned a base, within the base
-FOB Walden was roughly the same size as the base at Ramadi
-There were Afghan forces stationed at FOB Walden as well
-His unit didn’t have to abide by the same rules as regular soldiers
-This was because of their affiliation with the Special Forces
-It was a more relaxed atmosphere at their base within a base
-There were times where he would have to get up at 3 AM to go on a raid
-Within fifteen minutes everyone was ready to go
-Conducted bilateral missions with the Afghan forces
(01:19:09) Conducting Raids
-A raid’s purpose was to aid the Afghan National Police if they got overwhelmed
-Raids also consisted of stopping and searching convoys
-Mostly focused on searching houses
-Most of the Afghan police were totally inept at the beginning
-After they trained the police they were at least somewhat competent
-Raids usually began before dawn and then they would go to the target
-Most of the intelligence they received for a raid was done by informants in the area
-During a raid a few teams would guard the house while one team would go into the house
-Both Afghan and American forces would enter the house to do the search or arrest
-Most of the time it would have been better to have just had U.S. troops do the raid
-Afghan police were more of a hindrance than a help
-Conducted raids for nine of the ten months that he was in Afghanistan
-During Ramadan NATO high command ordered a large amount of raids
-Terrible for the Afghans because it interrupted their holy holiday
(01:23:30) Dealing with the Taliban and the Afghans
-The main enemy during his deployment was the Taliban
-There was a Taliban leader near one of their Military Police substations
-They were not allowed to arrest him because he was friends with the local police chief
-There was a lot of corruption, a lot of laziness, and a lot of hatred for Americans
-While in Afghanistan learned that there were simply not the logistics for creating a democracy
�-Too many tribes that were too separated that had too much bad history with each other
(01:24:38) Training the Afghan National Police
-The majority of what they did with the Afghan National Police was training them
-He helped create the training manual that outlined the four week training course
-There was a cycle:
-Four weeks of training the Afghans
-Four weeks of being on standby with the Afghans (yellow stage)
-Four weeks of being ready to go on missions with the Afghans (green stage)
-Afghans were allowed to go home during the yellow stage, but then they wouldn’t come back
-There was a mix of police from the Kandahar area as well as men from outside Kandahar
-They tried to organize the squads so that tribesmen would be kept together
-There were multiple languages spoken, just in Kandahar, which created barriers
-Tribes also didn’t get along with each other which created problems
(01:28:40) Threats in Afghanistan
-2011 had the second highest kill rate for NATO forces in Afghanistan
-Highest percent of those killed were in the Kandahar Province
-It was very common for the internet to go down during a “blackout”
-Basically the military preventing soldiers from reading about a dead soldier
-The raids were inherently dangerous
-Involved searching the house of, or arresting, a known terrorist suspect
-Improvised explosive devices (IEDs) were a major threat
-There were organized attacks that would happen in the city
-Suicide bombers
-The Sarposa Prison Escape of 2011
-485 prisoners escaped during one night
-These prisoners just also happened to be high level terrorists
-Fortunately the 1775th never sustained any losses during that deployment
-The units that took losses were the ones in more populated areas, like the city
-Began to have to deal with “friendly” Afghan forces killing American forces
(01:32:18) Living Conditions in Afghanistan
-The living conditions that his unit had were good
-He was able to have his own room
-They had access to electricity and the internet
-While other soldiers had to live in tents they were able to have individual rooms
-He had better access to the internet
-He was able to call his girlfriend and family via Skype
-He had his own cellphone
-Made for easier communication with his soldiers in Afghanistan
-Totally impractical for calling home though
-It was expensive to make calls out of Afghanistan and it was terrible service
(01:34:47) Impact of Afghanistan Deployment
-When he got into the National Guard he wanted to make it his career
-During the deployment to Afghanistan learned more about the military and the war in general
-This caused him to change his mind and wanting to get out of the National Guard
-Once Afghanistan was over he wanted to get out and figure out the rest of his life
�(01:35:58) Coming Home
-On February 3, 2012 he was back in the United States
-The process of the end of the deployment began in early January 2012
-Regrouped with the rest of the 1775th at Combat Outpost Sheridan
-Went as a group to Kandahar Air Field
-Flew from Kandahar to Manas, Kyrgyzstan to Rammstein, Germany to Bangor, Maine
-Spent three days in Manas
-Finally landed at Camp Atterbury, Indiana
-From Camp Atterbury they were bused up to Pontiac, Michigan
-Spent six days going through the readjustment process
-Now included being shown what resources were available to them
-Getting registered for the Veterans’ Administration Healthcare
-He rode from Pontiac to Grand Rapids, Michigan with his brother
-He stayed at his cousin’s house for a week by himself while his cousin was in South Africa
-Felt good to be able to just be alone and by himself for a week
-In May 2012 his six year commitment to the National Guard ended and he did not reenlist
(01:39:14) Life after the War
-His transition back to civilian life was more difficult because his military career was over
-He had to make plans for a future that did not involve the National Guard
-He had some stress issues to deal with after the deployment to Afghanistan
-He was able to address those issues and deal with them
-His girlfriend and cousin played a large part in helping to deal with that
-There was a lot of stress in deciding what direction his civilian life would take
-He had a lot of experience, but not experience that would apply in the civilian world
-He went back to college at Grand Valley State University (GVSU)
-Received his bachelor’s degree in communication in 2013
-After that began working on his master’s degree in August 2013
-Public Administration with an emphasis on Public Management
-Expects to graduate in 2015
-After returning home he got involved with helping a number of local veterans’ groups
-Groups active in Kent County, Student Veterans of America at GVSU
-He has totally immersed himself in the world of helping veterans
-He wants a large focus of his future to be on helping veterans
-Believes that more needs to be done to help American veterans
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_SwitzerS1699V
Title
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Switzer, Simeon (Interview outline and video), 2014
Date
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2014-09-25
Description
An account of the resource
Simeon Switzer is a veteran of both the Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan. He was born in 1985 in Bogota, Colombia and was adopted by a Michigan family in1987. He grew up with his adoptive family in Jenison, Michigan then Grandville, Michigan. After college, he enlisted in the Michigan National Guard in early summer 2006 and was assigned to Charlie Company 1st of the 125th Infantry Regiment Michigan National Guard, and deployed with them to Iraq in early 2008. His unit carried out Personal Security Detail missions escorting NATO officials, electricians, businessmen, educators, and other high profile personnel through the city of Ramadi, Iraq. After his return, he transferred to the 144th Military Police Company, and then to the 1775th Military Police Company. He deployed with them to Afghanistan in January, 2011. During the first month he and his squad carried out Personal Security Detail missions in Kandahar, Afghanistan and then were transferred to Combat Outpost Graceland to work with the Canadian Special Forces on learning how to train the Afghan National Police. From there they were transferred to Forward Operating Base Walden where they helped carry out raids with and train the Afghan national Police until the end of the deployment in early January 2012.
Creator
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Switzer, Simeon
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
United States. National Guard
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans<
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Moving Image
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f539abe9376fe9b9795d503d2363865d.mp4
7ef93bf11f9c29a76bc76bb57b4bbac2
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d81938f2bce4e703df71d3f77492a0b0.pdf
7c71adfdf392e28e336de1132296cba1
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee: Adrian Sytsma
Length of Interview: 00:53:05
Background:
Born in 1923 at home, delivered by his grandmother.
His father would move the family to a nice neighborhood, where they would live until he
entered the service.
He father was a cement finisher. He worked for a contractor, building homes in the
1920’s. (00:55)
Eventually, he would be out of a job as construction was not around much anymore.
He ended up working for Thomas Dairy. 3 of his uncles had started it in 1910. His
father worked there until he retired.
He attended Baxter Christian School, only a couple of blocks from his house. (1:40)
After that, his father told him that he had to attend a Christian high school, so he went to
Grand Rapids Christian for one year.
After that he would attend Tech High School. His two brother-in-laws would come
together against his father to make him understand that there he would learn the trade.
He wanted to become a die maker, so his father let him go.
Half a day was spent at regular classes, and the other was spent in the shop.
In 1941, when the news of Pearl Harbor came, he was at church. When he got out to his
car, he had heard on the radio what had happened. He was shocked. (2:50)
Other than that, he did not pay much attention to the war in Europe.
At the time he was working as a die maker apprentice, so he was hoping to get a
deferment.
Unfortunately, he did not have enough time in as an apprentice, so he had to give it up.
Also at the time, he was dating a gal, and things were pretty serious, so he did not enlist,
but instead just waited to be drafted.
He would receive his draft notice in the fall of 1942, get his physical, and he was
inducted in 1943. (4:25)
He was inducted at Fort Custer, Michigan.
After he had received all of his shots, he would take a train down to St. Petersburg,
Florida, where he would take his basic training.
Training (5:00)
That base was specifically used for the Army Air Corps training.
His tests would offer him a position in machinist school, which he chose because it went
along with the work he had hoped to be doing through his life.
�
The difference between mechanics school and machinist school is that in the second you
just learn how to operate machines, while mechanics school repaired the engines in the
planes.
It was rough. The discipline there was brutal. He though that criminals on the streets
should be put through basic, just to learn discipline. (7:10)
They had physical training every day for an hour. They would also have to get up during
the night to march or run.
Although he was in Florida in January, he says the days were really warm, and the nights
were cold.
When he left Fort Custer, he and the others left in wool clothes. For the five days on the
train, none of them were allowed to shower or change. So when they got there they were
all hot and stinky.
Although some people have a hard time adjusting, he just kept his head down and did
what he was told.
Most of them were from the Detroit area, though he knew 3 or 4 from the Grand Rapids
area.
Basic training would last 6 weeks. After that he would be sent off to take more tests,
where they found his mechanical skills were quite well.
He would be sent to Amarillo, Texas, to learn the operation of B-17’s. (10:10)
It was mostly trying to get familiar with the operation of the airplane.
There were also regular classes, where they had a textbook on the B-17’s and the
instructors were civilians.
He would be there for about two and a half months.
When he got there, he felt a lot freer than when he was in basic. At night, after classes,
he and some buddies would get passes to go into Amarillo. They all had curfew at 11pm.
It was not so exciting there. He and his girlfriend loved to roller skate, but the rink there
was not very good.
Once he was finished with his time there, he graduated, but did not receive a diploma,
along with some of the other men there. Eventually, they would learn that they were
being sent on special orders to a school in Seattle, Washington, to learn about the B-29
school there. (12:30)
He was there about 6 months.
When he got there, they had a model they studied. During his time there, he saw a B-29
once. It was a monster, much bigger than the B-17.
The instructor said that the main learning part of their time there would be working by
experience, not out of a book.
After his time there, he went to radio operator school for 3 weeks in Denver, Colorado.
(14:30)
After that, he had furlough, and went home for a week.
When he got back, he was sent to Clovis, New Mexico. It was a distribution center for
the armed forces. He spent about 6 weeks there.
He was then sent to Sioux City, Iowa with other men. There, each of them would take 8hr. shifts on duty, to be on duty 24 hours a day. (15:00)
�
They did that for about 2 weeks, but then the colonel that he served under told them that
he had to let them go. He had wanted them to be there in case a B-29 landed, that way
there would be someone there who was familiar with the plane.
From there he was sent to Salina, Kansas. There he would work with soldiers from the
Pacific working on B-24’s. It was there that he really learned the operation of an
airplane. (16:20)
Seattle was by far a more interesting place than Amarillo. It was where the B-29 was
being produced.
There was a nice big roller rink, where he would go skating and he found a nice church to
go to while he was there.
He wrote to his girlfriend every day.
Going back to Kansas, as far as he is concerned, any hands on experience was better than
book experience. He felt that the instructors in Washington did not know much more
than they did about the planes.
But here they actually got to work on the planes.
The guys that he worked with knew what they were doing, as that was their job. So they
taught him everything he knows about mechanical work on airplanes.
After that training experience, he went to McCook, Nebraska. (19:25)
There he would observe other soldiers during flight training. Some of them had to fly as
far as Jamaica and back. All had to have some sort of practice flying over water.
He was assigned to one plane, and he and the crew were in charge of taking care of that
plane, mostly making repairs.
While he was there, one big thing he had to deal with was the low oil pressure in the
plane. You could not fix that, but instead had to rebuild the whole engine.
He also remembers one night the radio mechanics had ran a jeep into the propeller of a
plane engine. No one was hurt, but it was a real sad incident and they jeep was busted up
pretty good.
He would finish up there around the end of 1945. (22:00)
He and a buddy got a Class A pass and took a train to Chicago, and took another train to
Grand Rapids. He got home Saturday afternoon, and they had to leave Monday morning.
They ended up being late, but there did not seem to be any repercussions. They did that
about once a month.
For the few weeks while he was in radio school, he did not learn anything. He hated it
there, so he was happy to leave.
During his many travels to different bases across America, he had paid much more
attention to the war. He did not think that it would be over before it was his turn to serve.
He was really surprised when rumors started floating around in August that the US had
dropped a bomb on Japan that essentially took care of the war. He heard about that while
he was in Guam. (25:50)
He had left for Guam in April, 1945.
He had been assigned to a plane to maintain, and from that day on, it was their
responsibility to take care of it.
One of the planes there had a gunner station, for someone to get into and shoot. Most of
them though were quite advanced and had what they called scanners, which was a
machine where you pushed a button and it fired the gun. (27:10)
�
He would get on a train from McCook that took him to Wichita, Kansas. There he got a
new B-29, as they were manufactured there as well. From there they flew to Guam.
Some of the other ground personnel would have to go by boat. There were six guys who
actually flew over there.
He had flown before that, getting some experience in before being sent over.
They flew from Kansas to San Pedro, California. They stayed there Saturday night and
Sunday.
At midnight, they left for Hawaii. Some of them slept on the plane. They stayed in
Hawaii for a day and left at 8am the next morning, headed for Kwajalein. It was an
island just for refueling planes.
It had a runway a mile long in it; just enough room for a B-29. They stayed the night
there and the next morning they headed for Guam
Guam (31:25)
When they landed, the people there had just finished resurfacing the runway. It was
really nice.
It was just a thick jungle between the taxi strip and the barracks. They had cleared a path
through the jungle so they could get to the barracks.
He was part of the 331st Bomb Group, 357th Bomb Squadron.
Within the squadron, there were 9 aircraft.
At the time, there were still some Japanese soldiers hiding on the island, living in caves.
(34:00)
He had an experience there one time, where he was headed to the chow hall when they
saw a couple of guys dressed in American uniform, but they looked like Japanese. He
guesses that someone had said something because it wasn’t long before soldiers were
there picking these two guys up.
Every Sunday, 2 or 3 of the guys would go to the south side of the island, to a small city,
to attend church there. That was a good day for them, even though they had to put time
in that day as well.
There was another guy who went there as well, who would bring them down in his jeep
and bring them back when church was done.
They had good food, and a big mess hall. The cooks there were good and they did a fine
job of keeping them well fed.
Every once a month, there would be a dance in the mess hall. It would be at this time that
girls from the local villages could mingle with the soldiers.
They also had movies available for the soldiers.
The planes were flying pretty regularly. (37:10)
He knew what was going on, and pilots always kept a log book.
Planes always took off at 5 PM, and have a Navy plane check to see that all the planes
got up well and would land again.
Each afternoon, the planes would be lined up, bumper to bumper, to get ready to take off.
There were about 27 of them.
They would be gone until 7 the next morning. In case of emergency, they would land in
places like Okinawa or Iwo Jima.
�
One of the tactics that they used against the anti-aircraft was to sling tinfoil out of the
aircraft. They never lost a single plane.
He was there at the time when the war ended. (40:00)
It was sometime in August when rumors started floating around that the US had dropped
a bomb on Japan.
When all of the planes were getting ready to go, the commander came out and waved his
arms to cut the engines. They waited and waited, but nothing happened. So they all
come to the conclusion that the bomb had effectively ended the war.
But 20 minutes later, they had to start their engines and to continue on their mission for
the night.
He remembered hearing that the war was over. It was wonderful news, but they kept
flying. They did this in order to get the number of hours needed in order to get their
flight pay. (41:40)
They would take old parachutes and make a rack with chutes that held things like candy,
food and other supplies and drop it in Japan.
Even though the end of the war was in August, he would remain in Guam until March.
He would maintain planes, because they still flew them to get their pay.
Each plane had to have an inspection. So, instead of keeping the planes landed for 3 or 4
days at a time, what they would do is work on engine 1 the first night, and the plane
would fly the next day; work on engine 2 the next night, and the plane would fly the next
day, etc. until all four engines were finished. (44:10)
Working on these engines was really difficult. You hardly had any knuckles left.
During this time, people had started going home. With the point system they had, the
more points you had, the earlier you could go home.
Because he was relatively new, he was one of the last ones to go home. (46:30)
They flew a lot of the planes back, but some of the equipment was left behind.
While they had served there, the US would keep sending them extra planes to replace the
ones that they had, but they didn’t need them because theirs had never gotten that badly
damaged. So there were a lot of extra planes there.
He had maybe a week’s notice before he knew he was going home.
He was eventually sent to Saipan and from there, he would take a transport ship back to
the US. It was packed. (48:40)
It was his first ship that he was on. It was not a pleasant trip. There were too many guys
on there. The compartments were very small and there was not a lot of room between the
men and their personal belongings. No one liked it.
There were a couple of days when the ship was rocking back and forth. Sharks would
follow the ship home, eating the garbage that was dumped by the crew.
The trip took two weeks.
He landed in California.
Post Duty (50:25)
When he got to California, he did not stay there very long. He would be discharge in
Chanute Field, near Chicago.
He got home in April 1946.
�
He loved working outdoors, so he went to the airport in Grand Rapids and he had
inquired about a job. But they had no openings. They offered a position in Denver, but
he did not want to leave, he had just been gone for the past 3 years.
So he went back to Keeler Brass and worked there for 46 years. He worked as a die
maker.
Looking back at his time in the military, he felt he learned was that he had a lot to be
thankful for.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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SytsmaA0808V
Title
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Sytsma, Adrian (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
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Sytsma, Adrian
Description
An account of the resource
Adrian Sytsma grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and was drafted into the Army in 1943. Because he already had some technical training and work experience, he was assigned to the Army Air Corps to be a mechanic. After initially training on B-17s, he eventually was retrained for B-29s, and finally sent to Guam in April, 1945. He serviced aircraft conducting missions to Okinawa and Japan in the last months of the war, and remained on Guam until March, 1946.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army Air Corps
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-11-09
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ae2f7b76682972898fffdcb55e42cc4.m4v
772eea0b50aa58a23df24bf0b5d40914
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6707f37dcee7f832d7a3a306ae60fc8e.pdf
5b68945a040ec325567d43eb696e4315
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Clarence Szejbach
Vietnam War
22 minutes 51 seconds
(00:00:34) Early Life
-Born in Traverse City, Michigan on September 19, 1948
-Had two older sisters
-Father owned a meat market
-Worked for his father and learned the family business
(00:01:33) Getting Drafted
-Father tried to keep him from getting drafted
-Excited to get drafted
-19 years old and had no fear
-Saw it as an adventure
-Not much going on in Elk Rapids, Michigan
-Place where he grew up (near Traverse City)
-Saw it as a chance to see the country
(00:02:34) Training
-Basic training was difficult, but he quickly adapted to it
-He wasn't out of shape, but found the physical training a little difficult
-Had to get up earlier than he normally did
-A lot of discipline and a lack of freedom
(00:03:29) Service with the 25th Infantry Division
-Assigned to the 2nd Battalion of the 22nd Infantry Regiment of the 25th Infantry Division
-Operated in Tay Ninh Province with the division headquarters located in Cu Chi
-Rice paddies and jungle
-Served as an infantryman
-Spent his first month as a rifleman going on patrols
-Started carrying the radio for the platoon sergeant
-Went on to serving as the radio operator for the platoon leader
-Went on to serving as the radio telephone operator for the company commander
-Enjoyed that duty, but it was dangerous
(00:04:53) Losing His Right Hand
-His unit was stationed at Fire Support Base (FSB) Crook near the Cambodian border
-Guarding the area while the engineers built up the base
-For about one month they conducted missions in the area around the base
-High Viet Cong activity
-On the night of June 5, 1969 the Viet Cong launched a human wave attack against the base
-Note: Wave after wave of soldiers charging the position regardless of casualties taken
-The American forces held off the enemy attack through the night
-On the morning of June 6 they went out to see how much damage the attack caused
-How many Viet Cong had been killed and how much damage the perimeter sustained
-One militant had stayed behind to mount a suicide attack against patrols
-The militant threw a few grenades at the patrol and opened fire with a rifle
-Clarence picked up a live grenade and threw it away
-Saved his unit, but lost his right hand in the process
�(00:07:12) Recovery & End of Service
-The grenade's explosion cost him his right hand and severed a major artery
-Had to undergo vascular surgery in Vietnam
-Couldn't travel on a pressurized aircraft until he fully healed
-Took a small aircraft to Japan for further recovery
-Stayed there for about 45 days to heal from his vascular wound
-He was healed and mobile by time he got back to the United States
-Given 30 days of leave to visit his family
-Took 11 months to be discharged from the Army
-Sent to Valley Forge Hospital, Pennsylvania for further recovery
-Spent a few days in the hospital, then went home for 30 days, then returned to the hospital
-Given a temporary prosthetic arm, discharged from the Army, and sent home
(00:09:33) Coming Home
-Experienced no negativity coming home
-Probably would've experienced more antiwar sentiments in a larger city
(00�:10:05) Medals
-Received the Distinguished Service Cross for his heroism in Vietnam
-Record problems stopped him from getting his medals
-Name was misspelled and they had the wrong Social Security number
-In 2012 a Veterans' Affairs representative reviewed his records
-Discovered Clarence was owed a Purple Heart for his wounds sustained in Vietnam
-Insisted that he get that changed
-Led to him getting seven medals that he deserved
-Including the Bronze Star and the Distinguished Service Cross
(00�:12:15) Contact with Enemy Forces
-In contact with enemy forces in Vietnam quite a bit
-Flew a lot of “Eagle Flights”
-Eagle Flight: Large air assault of helicopters
-Went into a landing zone and searched the area for enemy troops
-Didn't know if the landing zone would be taking fire, or not
-Always on edge
-Felt the United States was doing a good thing in Vietnam
(00:13:27) Friendships Pt. 1
-Made some friends while he was in Vietnam
-Soldiers in Vietnam normally did a one year tour
-Usually didn't serve with the men you trained with
-There was a constant rotation of soldiers out of Vietnam either from wounds or ending tour
-Has four or five friends from Vietnam that he is still in contact with
-Has since made contact with old comrades from his company
-Was closer with the men that served in the command post
-Some of the men he served with have since died
(00:15:22) Contact with Home
-Wrote letters to and received letters from home
-He wasn't a big letter writer
-Received mail on a daily basis
-Wrote home every couple weeks
-No telephones to call home with
-Limited means of communication in Vietnam
�(00:16:00) Life after the War
-Busy with raising a family and working when Saigon fell on April 30, 1975
-Had mixed emotions about the fall of South Vietnam and the end of the war
-Felt the war had been fought with “hands tied”
-Restrictions on how the war could be fought and where soldiers could go
-Government tried to save face with American people and other countries
-After the war and the Army he focused on civilian life
-Being a husband and a father to three daughters
-Had to learn how to do things with his left hand
-Buttoning a shirt with one hand and doing other normal tasks without his right hand
-Uses his prosthesis 99% of the time
-Feels fortunate to have lost his hand at the wrist
-Left the nerve intact allowing him to use the hooks like two fingers
-Also has an iLIMB Hand (a bionic hand)
(00:19:18) Friendships Pt. 2 & Other Vietnam Veterans
-Still in contact with three men that he served with in Vietnam
-One of the men lives in Texas and they see each other once a year
-Two of the men go to the 2nd Battalion of the 22nd Infantry Regiment Annual Reunion
-Hasn't attended a reunion yet because he's been busy
-Plans on attending one in the future
-Hasn't sought out other Vietnam War veterans to talk with, but isn't against talking to other veterans
(00:21:02) Reflections on Service
-Doesn't feel his time in the Army or in the war affected him that much
-Has lived a normal life
-Disability hasn't stopped him
-Army taught him that he can overcome most things
-Taught him discipline and how to take orders
-Also taught him that he enjoys being self-employed
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_SzejbachC1832V
Title
A name given to the resource
Szejbach, Clarence L (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-16
Description
An account of the resource
Clarence Szejbach was born in Traverse City, Michigan on September 19, 1948. When he was 19 years old he was drafted into the Army. He was deployed to Vietnam and served in the 2nd Battalion of the 22nd Infantry Regiment of the 25th Infantry Division. He spent his first month as a rifleman, but served as a radio operator for the platoon sergeant, the platoon leader, and the company commander. He served in Tay Ninh Province. His unit served at Fire Support Base Crook on the Cambodian border, and on June 5, 1969 the Viet Cong launched a massive attack on the base. The next day a Viet Cong militant tried to ambush the patrol with grenades. Clarence threw a grenade back saving his unit, but cost him his right hand. For his heroic action he was eventually awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. He returned to the United States and recovered at home and at Valley Forge Hospital, Pennsylvania before being discharged from the Army.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Szejbach, Clarence L.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tufer, Grace (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cadbbfdaa0b5085211299ff4ed6fea63.mp4
ce64105221bb4b6b9e124e9beb47aafb
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4bfabfc570e8614b54c48a56ff550bcd.pdf
b329fae4ed0734101ddb246fac5365cc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview Transcript
Edmond C. Szudzik
Born: October 16, 1918 in Grand Rapids, MI
WWII Veteran
United States Army, 1941 to 1945
126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division
Transcribed: April 18, 2007 by Joan Raymer
We moved to a farm by Wayland, MI., when I was nine years old. I worked on the farm
where I milked the cows and raised chickens. 2:02
I was selected one day by my friends to serve. I got a letter one day. Uncle Sam wants
you. 2:20 I joined the military because I was selected by my friends and neighbors.
We went to Fort Custer where they gave us uniforms and shoes. They said, “man you got
wide feet” and I said “yea that’s because I walk behind the plow”. They didn’t know if
they had wide enough shoes for me, but they found some. I put them on and they had
two five gallon pails of sand there and they said “pick them pails of sand up” and then
2:15 he put my feet in one of these machines with the pictures and they said “well, those
fit pretty good”.
I was at Fort Custer two weeks or so and the first morning they called us out and they
said, “pick up them cigarette butts” and I 2:42 said, “I don’t smoke” and the Sergeant
said, “pick em up.” The next day they put me on KP and boy I liked that. I worked in
the kitchen and one of the cooks told me to go in the pantry and get that bag of potatoes.
There was a 100 Lb. bag of Idaho potatoes and they were beautiful. He told me to peel
them and he gave me two pots. 3:18 I asked him how many I should peel and he said
“the whole bag”, so I peeled the whole bag and they cooked them for dinner. I liked that
because I could go into the pantry and get milk or an apple or an orange. Whatever I
wanted to eat. 3:51
I was there two weeks and then I was moved to Camp Livingston LA. Where we had
basic training. They put me in the mortar squad and they showed us how to shoot and
everything, but we didn’t do any shooting there with live ammunition. They gave me a
45 pistol to carry and 4:24 I was in that mortar squad when we went to Australia and then
we went to New Guinea. When we got in the war, I was still in that. It worked real good
but we ran out of ammunition and we went on maneuvers and made believe we were
fighting, but we didn’t do any shooting. They took us to the rifle range to shoot. They
gave us live ammunition and targets there. 5:22 They gave us a nice rifle. I would like
to have one, I don’t go deer hunting, but it would be really nice for deer hunting. I think
it was a lot better rifle than they got now. All the guys were new to me.
Before I went they had a dinner for us in Allegan. Another guy and I sat together and ate
together. 5:59 and we went to Kalamazoo together for our physicals. They turned him
down because there was something wrong with his back. He was a truck driver and he
had his own truck. He had sold his truck and he practically cried when they turned him
down. I never saw him after that because I didn’t get his address and where he lived so I
1
�couldn’t write him a letter or anything. 6:32 I met a lot of nice guys and we had a good
time there. One nice thing I remember is they used to come around with watermelon and
sell them for .50 apiece for a great big watermelon. 7:03 We would buy one, there were
five of us in the tent, and we would take it in the tent and take our knives and boy we
would eat watermelon. It wasn’t cold, but it tasted good. We didn’t have much other
training there. We went from boot camp to Massachusetts. They were going to send us to
Asia or someplace. They changed their mind and put us on a train to San Francisco
where we got on a boat and we went to Australia. 8:11 We were there for a while and
they put us on another boat to New Guinea.
There were some Japs in New Guinea already and some Australian solders were already
there. 8:49 When we went over there we joined the Australian solders and they helped us
a lot. All there was were the Australian solders, us, and the natives. You could tell the
natives real easy. They really helped us a lot by carrying ammunition and grub for us.
The really helped us. 9:31 There were beautiful coconut groves there. There were
groves and trees with beautiful cocoanuts. I ate so much coconut there that I don’t care
for it anymore. I ate coconut for breakfast and drank the milk out of the coconuts. We
would ask the natives to get us a coconut and they would climb up that tree and they
didn’t wear shoes. 10:11 They would go up the tree and knock the Coconuts down.
They had big knives like machetes and they would bring it down and skin it for us. They
were really good.
We got along real good with the Australians and they taught us a lot about fighting.
When we first met the enemy, I was next to two Australians and the first night that Ausie
said to me 10:55 “I hear something” and I said, “I do too”. It was getting closer and
closer so we both fired at the same time. It was darker than the ace of spades and you
couldn’t see your hand in front of your face. When daylight came I could touch the
bayonet of the Jap. 11:21 We didn’t argue about who hit him and we didn’t go look
either. I didn’t anyway. I don’t know if he was hit twice or what. It was in 1941. I think
May 16, 1941. [1942]
I didn’t throw anything away. A lot of the guys threw everything away when we went to
New Guinea, but I kept the pup tent and the mess kit and spoon and fork. We did have a
fork now that I think of it. 12:50
The first day we hit them; we went over a little river or creek that was about knee deep.
We just got into a banana grove when the Japs started firing. I dug a hole. I was looking
for a place where there was an opening in the banana leaves to put our mortar in when the
lieutenant came by, his name was Johnson, he said “don’t put it in there when the planes
come by they can see you, put it under a banana tree”. 13:39 In training they said to
never put it under a tree because if the shell goes up and hits the least little thing it will go
off. The lieutenant was going to court-martial me and the guy that was in the hole with
me. He was a Corporal and I said “ok I’ll put it under the tree and I’ll show you how.”
“You drop it and I’ll leave.” “I’ll write to your wife and tell her what happened to you”.
He walked away and didn’t say a word.
14:08 I liked it there, it was warm. Some of the guys got blisters on their feet and they
were taking it hard. I was used to warm weather on the farm. Like in the summer time
doing the haying and everything. It didn’t bother me and I liked it. It rained everyday in
New Guinea in the afternoon. We would take a shower in the rain. 14:56 Some of the
guys it bothered. There were ticks that would get on you, get in your skin, and some of
2
�the guys would itch, but I had a little bottle of alcohol that I used. I would take a match
and light it and hold it over the tick, then pinch that tick to get it out and rub the alcohol
on my legs. I didn’t have any trouble at all. 15:47 I didn’t have much trouble at all.
Once when I was walking and looking around, I found a little ripe pineapple growing so I
picked it and cut it up. I don’t know how many guys came, but it was good and ripe and
it sure tasted good. 16:24 Then we walked a little ways and there were papaya trees, so I
picked some of them cut it open and took the seeds out and started eating it. One of the
guys said ”boy you could live out in the jungle and live off the jungle.” He said, “how
does that taste?” and I said, “do you want a taste?” Boy, I loved those things. 16:48
When we came back we went to Hawaii. I went four times and my wife went five times.
We had a daughter and son in law living there. We went to the store one day and I was
going to buy some of them papayas and my daughter said “don’t buy any of those, I’ll
take you to a place”. There was an old house there and an old guy sitting there. He had a
bunch of trees and he sold them 6 for a dollar. My daughter took us up there and I asked
him if he had any papayas and he said “yea, I got seven of them for a dollar”. I took all
of them. 17:35 They were good, but you couldn’t bring any back. They were inspected,
but they were half rotten already by that time.
There weren’t too many bananas in the groves in New Guinea. Once in a while we
would find some. In that grove where we first hit the Japs, all that was left were the
stalks. The leaves were all shattered.
Our food was called C rations, but I called them dog biscuits. I broke my teeth on them
things. They were harder than a rock. Then we had some canned stuff like hash and cans
of meat that I said to the guys that it was horsemeat. 19:00 It was Australian stuff, but
we ate it and got along.
After we were in the war for I don’t know how many days, we went back to Australia to
get replacements because we had lost so many guys. Well there were a couple of guys
from Pennsylvania, Irishmen, and one guy Al McNally, he was a sergeant. They put me
in a rifle platoon and he was my sergeant. When we went back to New Guinea he opened
up a can of hash and said, “boy that’s dull, I wish I had some hot peppers.” I said “I’ll
get you some hot peppers”, so I took my rifle and walked a little ways. Those peppers
grew wild there and they were hot. 20:19 I tasted one and thought I was going to burn up
so I spit it out. I picked a handful and I told him to wash them in his water because I
wasn’t going to put them in my water, so he took a handful and rinsed them off, cut them
up into his hash, and said “boy now this tastes good.” 20:34 Them things were hot.
They were little bitty things.
We got along real good with the replacements. Everybody got along real good. 21:18
I wrote a letter to my cousin here in Grand Rapids, he worked for a paper company and I
wrote it on Australian toilet paper. It was like the paper we used to use here in Michigan
to wrap meat in. We had instant coffee and I would wet my finger and put it on that toilet
paper then I wrote the letter on it and said “boy things are rough over here, I tried this
before I wrote the letter”. 21:46 I sent it to him and he showed it to everybody in his
office. About a week later I got a package from Grand Rapids with toilet paper, writing
paper, pens, ink and pencils. They would send packages quite often. Sometimes they
would deliver them to the front line where we would open them and divide with the guys
if it was something to eat. 22:30
3
�What I remember most is Lt. Johnson took some guys and they went out on patrol and
when they came back he came by our hole and he said, “we lost Ray Evans’ and I said,
“what happened to him?” and he said ”I don’t know, we lost him.” I think it was two or
three days later at night he came back. I don’t know how he got by all the guys without
getting shot, but he came to my hole where I was with this other guy, Frank Carlin. 23:47
When we were in Louisiana, we were in the same tent and he snored like the dickens.
Even in New Guinea he snored like the dickens. Frank was snoring and I was up
watching guard and this Ray Evans came by my hole. I don’t know how he got by the
other guys without getting shot, but I had my pistol cocked and I could hear him coming
closer and closer and Ray heard Frank snoring and he said “Ed” and I said “Ray.” I
raised that pistol and I almost shot him. I cried and I shook. Boy that was a close thing
and I would really feel bad if I had hit him. 24:55
I was hit twice. I was hit in the back. I said to this one guy from Kentucky “we better
move” and he jumped in one foxhole and I jumped in another one. Then I got hit in the
leg with shrapnel and he got hit in the stomach. The medic, Frank Jakubowski, he lives a
block away from me now, he was our medic and he dug in my leg with a Boy Scout
knife. He said “heck Ed, I can’t find nothing in there” so he put some stuff on there and a
band-aid. Frank looked at the guy from Kentucky and started putting some stuff on and
Kentucky said “Frank, you don’t have to put nothing on there, I’ll spit some of this
tobacco juice on it.” 26:21 They used to send them some tobacco that looked like
swamp grass. They would chew on that and spit that juice out. He spit some of that juice
on it and it healed and was all right.
They had rifle grenades, they would shoot them up in the air and hit a branch and they
would explode. 27:01 One day when we were advancing, about a week before the
marines came in there and they came by my hole. The Lt., or whoever he was, said ”I’ll
show you guys how to get Japs out of here”, so they started yelling like the dickens and
woke up the Japs. The Japs in them holes started shooting and the machine guns opened
up and I don’t know how many of the marines were killed. 27:45 I don’t think there
were any Japs killed. They left and we stayed for about a week or so and they said they
were going to make a raid. I had a machine gun and this guy came by me and said ”help
me out Ed, guard me.” I said “ok” and he took off, jumped in a hole with a Jap and
started fighting with him. I aimed the machine gun to shoot the Jap, but I didn’t fire it
because you couldn’t hold it that still. 28:46 If I had an M-1, I could have shot him.
Then that Jap machine gun started firing, so I started firing at them and I put a 50 round
drum through and then another 20 and then I put another 20 in and I shot about half that
one out and the machine gun blistered and quit firing. My buddy was over in the
trenches. We had dug trenches then, and he pulled me over and said “Ed, get down,
they’re cutting the trees right above your head.” I didn’t even hear them bullets coming
by so I moved over where he was and I could see that machine gun. There was a guy in
the hole and he was frozen down there. He had a BAR and I had never fired one of
them. I said, ” where’s the clip?” and he showed me and said “here’s a clip of armor
piercing shells” and I said “put it in there.” So I stood up and I could see that machine
gun. 30:16 They were still firing where I was before, so I took one shot at it and I figured
if it was anything like our machine gun, I’ll fire right in the center of it. I don’t know
what battle they called it. We were just fighting.
4
�I got malaria and I was in the hospital several times. 31:20 I was in New Guinea in the
field hospital and in Australia. When I came home on furlough, I got malaria and I was
in the hospital at Fort Custer eleven or twelve days. Everybody got it. You had to be
pretty sick before you would go to the hospital. They gave us Atabrine tablets to take and
a lot of guys it bothered them and they got yellow jaundice from them, they turned
yellow. 32:35 They didn’t bother me and I kept taking them. Then they gave us some
vitamin pills and I would take one of them. They were in brown bottles and they never
stuck together from the heat. I would take one a day of them. One day I wondered what
was in them so I bit into one and I spit it out. It tasted like a rotten egg. I thought “Holy
Smokes.” 33:27 I couldn’t smell them, but the natives could. There was something
about it.
When we landed in New Guinea we were on a big boat and they put us on something
they called a landing craft and the navy shelled the coastline there and the planes came
over and dropped bombs. 34:12 When we hit shore the Japs, they must have got word
and left. They were dug in there because they had what was like basements. They had
coconut trees cut down and laid on top and all kinds of ground on top, but they were
down there, but they were all gone. I looked in one there and there were bags of rice that
they left. They couldn’t take the rice with them so the natives they were eating the rice.
It was really nice rice too. 35:01 I didn’t take anything, but a lot of guys told me the
Japs had a lot of gold teeth and that they were knocking their teeth out and taking the
gold. I thought, “gee whiz Akers.” I didn’t take anything, but there rifles were nice and
their swords, but I just took care of my gun. We slept in foxholes. A lot of guys said that
when they dug a hole the water would come up, but I didn’t have any water in any of the
holes I dug. 36:06 We never had water in our hole. We had patience; we just sat there
and waited. Even now, I can sit and wait. My wife, she can’t sit and wait like that and I
told her she would make a poor soldier. 37:02
The first day, we weren’t in combat an hour when we lost one guy. He joined the army
reserve and he was 17 years old when he got killed. The same day, my buddy from not
Traverse City, but up north there, he got hit and he came by me. His jacket was torn and
he was bleeding like a stuck hog. He said “Z I’ll see you in a month or two”, but he
didn’t come back. I seen him after the war, when we got back. He was single when he
went in and he was in Grand Rapids to get married. It was a girl from up home. Frank
Carlin that I was in the foxhole with, he was best man. We all got along real well. 39:04
I wish all those guys were living and could come to our reunions. Most of them are gone.
They always had scouts up front to figure out where the enemy was. Where the guys
went I went and we done a lot of praying. We were glad that we survived another day.
I was out of army when the war ended. I got a job in one day working at the A&P
warehouse. I worked one day and the next day the war ended. They closed up the place
and we all went home. The next payday, the guys that 41.16 worked there before got
paid for that day, but I didn’t get paid. The superintendent said ”Ed I tried have them pay
you for that day, but you haven’t been here very long.” He thought I was going to quit
and he felt really bad. I thought he was going to take the money out of his own pocket
and give it to me. 42:00
When I went to Wayland, my niece was working in the feed store; the owner came and
shook my hand. He said, ”Ed you’re a hero.” He read in the paper where I got that
machine gun and knocked out them Japs. When I went to the gas station, at that time you
5
�had to have stamps for gas, they wouldn’t take the stamps and some of the gas stations
wouldn’t even take the money. They would fill the model A up and then my sister was
driving that car while I was gone so I looked at the tires and there was more vulcanize on
there than the original rubber. I went to the Standard station there where I always bought
gas and asked him if he had any tires. He said “no, but I’m going to Grand Rapids and
I’ll see if I can find you some.” I went everyplace, but I couldn’t find any. 43:24 Then
the next day I went back to that place and asked if he had found any. He said, “ya, I
found two, but I don’t have time to put them on for you. I said ”I can put them on and I
said “Have you got tubes too?” and he said “ya”, so I bought them from him and took
them home and put them on. 43:48
The captain woke me and this other guy up and we had to go to this place in New
Guinea. It was Finschafen or something, I forgot, and we staid there overnight and they
put us on a boat, one of those boats that carried supplies to New Guinea. All we had was
the clothes on our back and the Merchant Marines gave us a blanket. 44:46 We slept in
the hole on that blanket and they fed us on the way home. I can’t remember how many
days it took us to come back. Then we hit Australia and docked there, me and this other
guy from Kalamazoo, we were up on the deck and their were two beautiful girls standing
there waving to us. They had on sweaters and had big “boobs”, but when we got down
Off the boat they were gone. A sergeant came by in a little boat and he said ”come on
guys, jump in here.” 45:50 Then we went by Alcatraz and the army had a camp there.
They took us to that camp, examined us, gave us a shower and a shave, fed us and gave
us more clothes and took us back to San Francisco. They gave us money for train fare to
come home. 46:27
My brother in law came over and we went to Wayland to the A&P store. The same
manager was still there and I said ”Marian”. He shook hands with me and almost pulled
me over the counter. I said “you got any beer?” and he said “ya”, I just got some” and I
said, “I gotta have a little party”. “I wan’ a have some beer.” He said, “how many cases
do you want?” and I said, “how many cases can I get?” So I think he gave me four cases
of beer. 47:26 My dad was glad too because he hadn’t had any in a long time because
you couldn’t buy any beer. It was like rationed.
6
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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SzudzikE
Title
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Szudzik, Edmund C. (Interview transcript and video), 2005
Creator
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Szudzik, Edmund C.
Description
An account of the resource
Edmund Szudzik was a draftee who joined the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division while it was training at Camp Livingston, Louisiana, in 1941. His unit was sent first to the East Coast, and then recrossed the country bound for Australia and New Guinea. His account includes colorful stories of training camp and of conditions in Australia and New Guinea, including vivid discriptions of jungle combat. His interview is featured in the documentary Nightmare in New Guinea produced by Grand Valley State University.
Contributor
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Sharp, Emily (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Video recordings
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2005-11-03
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a03f0b135047f65163829f57efa638e1.m4v
4938d126c28e974dafbdb83e9a3ba531
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aba657b2b808257936c0015c3b5593e3.pdf
db891b9e8a744f62d25189504ce64a75
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Beatrice Takeuchi
World War II (Japanese-American Citizen)
45 minutes 52 seconds
(00:00:13) Early Life & Family History
-Born on May 6, 1921, in Seattle, Washington
-Parents had both been born in Japan and migrated to the United States
-Father came to the United States first
-He was a graduate of Waseda University in Tokyo
-Studied Shakespeare and wanted to come to America to study
-Planned on translating Shakespeare into Japanese
-Translated English news into Japanese for the Japanese community
-Learned that job, hands-on
-Had worked with a Freudian psychologist in Tokyo for nine years
-Most likely came to the United States in either the 1900s or 1910s
-Started a printing shop that turned into a daily, Japanese newspaper
-Her parents’ marriage was an arranged one
-Beatrice’s mother came to the United States as a bride-to-be
-Met Beatrice’s father for the first time ever in Seattle
-Married by a Japanese Episcopalian priest
-Had a good marriage
-Grew up in Seattle
-Attended school with Italian, Greek, and Japanese children
(00:06:58) Start of the War
-Before Japan attacked America, her father worked to improve Japanese-American relations
-Followed the news coming from Japan and Asia
-For example, he followed the news about the invasion of Manchuria in 1931
-Father died before the attack on Pearl Harbor
-Mother and grandfather were disappointed by the attack, and deeply upset that it happened
(00:08:43) Deportation Pt. 1
-Remembers seeing posters from the local government posted on telephone poles
-Alerting Japanese-American citizens they would have to leave the city
-Didn’t think anything like that would’ve happened
-Had to leave by June 1942
-Signs went up in April
-Younger Japanese-Americans felt no strong connection to Japan aside from family
-Weren’t sure what it meant for her
-Complied and didn’t resist the order
-Felt there was no point in trying to fight the government anyway
-Japanese and Chinese citizens didn’t get along with each other
�-After the deportations began, Chinese citizens seized the Japanese real estate
-Passive hostility
-Doesn’t remember any overt harassment or violence
-Sold their home
-In retrospect, she’s surprised there were no protests and that the Japanese went quietly
-Total compliance in leaving their lives behind
-Left Seattle in June 1942
(00:13:26) Temporary Camp – Puyallup Assembly Center
-Note: Most likely the Puyallup Assembly Center at the Western Washington Fairgrounds
-Reported to the local fairgrounds
-The buildings used for animals had become temporary barracks for the people
-Larger buildings were turned into mess halls and assembly halls
-Spent two (or three) months at the first camp
-Drove there in the family car, and the Army bought the car
-No organization, and a lot of the people had free time on their hands
-A lot of the girls took up knitting to pass the time
-No one knew what was happening, or what would happen next
-The Army controlled the camp
-Soldiers armed with rifles patrolled the perimeter of the camp
(00:16:45) Permanent Camp – Minidoka War Relocation Center
-Army built a system of permanent concentration camps in the interior of the United States
-Placed in passenger cars and taken by train away from the Puyallup Assembly Center
-Blackout curtains covered the windows of the passenger cars
-Took three days to reach their destination in Idaho
-Unloaded in the middle of the desert, at the Minidoka War Relocation Center
-Barracks were still being built when they arrived
-Perimeter was surrounded by barbed wire and guard towers
-Realized then, that she was being held prisoner in her own country
-Brother had been a fourth-year journalism student at the University of Washington
-Became active in the community
-Formed baseball teams
-Gathered teachers and organized classes, to continue children’s education
-Had classes for kindergarteners through fifth grade
-Unfortunately, most teenagers still had nothing to do in the camp
-She had been an art student in college before getting deported
-Passed time sketching what she saw
-The barracks they slept in were basically Army barracks
-Her family was kept in a small space with cots and a metal stove
-No privacy
-Had to dress, and undress, with virtually no privacy
-Sometimes tried to talk with the guards, but the guards limited contact with prisoners
-Prisoners were used for menial tasks at the camp, such as cooking and cleaning
-Brother had contact with the civilian controllers of the camp
�-Some civilians volunteered at the camp
(00:25:08) Leaving the Camp
-Stayed at the camp for less than a year, because she fell ill and got to return to college
-Mother suggested she contact her old professor in Washington about going to college
-Had to go to college outside of the “Exclusion Area” on the West Coast
-Contacted a school in Chicago, and she was accepted
-She had contracted a gastrointestinal disease due to unsanitary conditions
-Treated after she went to Chicago
(00:27:19) Chicago School of Design
-Attended the Chicago School of Design
-Relatively new school
-Founded in 1937, and called “New Bauhaus” after the original in Germany
-She studied design
-Studied in Chicago for two years
-Mother sent Beatrice money while she lived in Chicago
-Eventually decided to move to Washington D.C. to get a job
-In Chicago, she stayed with one of her teachers
-No problems with harassment from people in Chicago
(00:30:15) Working in Washington D.C.
-Worked for the Housing Agency in Washington D.C.
-Worked on publications for them
-It was a good job with good coworkers
-Got along well with her supervisor
(00:31:13) Other Japanese-Americans
-There were other Japanese-Americans in Chicago and Washington D.C.
-No thoughts of conspiring against the government
-Often wonders why they were so compliant with their oppression
-Confusing time of loyalty
-Parents’ country versus her country
(00:33:00) End of the War
-She was in Washington D.C. at the end of the war in August 1945
-Feeling of relief that the war was over
-Felt as if there had been a release of pressure, being a Japanese woman
-Got married in Washington D.C. and had her first child in D.C.
(00:35:10) Family Leaving the Camp
-Mother’s sister married a farmer from Georgia
-Grandfather, mother, and a few brothers moved to Georgia to be close to aunt
-Allowed to leave the camp
-Oldest brother was 4-F, meaning he was unfit for military service
-Second, oldest brother was also 4-F due to intestinal troubles
-Her other brother was too young to serve in the military
(00:36:56) Seizure of Family’s Property
-Father had owned a type casting machine
�-He had bought it to make his own Japanese character tiles
-Cheaper than ordering them from Japan
-Remembers Chinese newspaper workers coming over in the middle of the night
-Asking her father to make some Chinese tiles for the paper
-Came at night because China and Japan were at war
-Japanese and Chinese people avoided each other in protest
-Brother sold off the press before the family got deported
-Government seized the type casting machine as well as the tiles
-Eventually wound up in the hands of General MacArthur in the Philippines
-At least, that’s what the government told the family
-She went to the War Department to ask about the location of the machine
-Refereed to an office in New York City
-Told her it couldn’t be returned to her, and family never saw it again
(00:42:52) Interactions with Government & White Americans
-Remembers FBI agents coming to their home
-They were polite and inspected her father’s library
-Mother was very compliant and allowed them to take material of interest
-White Americans she encountered were very polite
-No recollections of racism, harassment, or overt hostility
-Very civil interactions
-Police and military officials were also very civil
-Surprisingly polite
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-27_TakeuchiB2089V
Title
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Takeuchi, Beatrice (Interview outline and video), 2017
Date
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2017-01-10
Description
An account of the resource
Beatrice Takeuchi was born in Seattle, Washington, on May 6, 1921. In June 1942, she, and the rest of her family, was deported to the Puyallup Assembly Center at the Western Washington Fairgrounds, due to Executive Order 9066. Her family sold their house and their car, and her father's printing equipment was seized by the government. She was held at Puyallup Assembly Center for two or three months before getting transferred to Minidoka War Relocation Center in Idaho. Due to unsanitary conditions at the camp, she fell ill which contributed to her being allowed to leave the camp. She had also been an art student, and was allowed to continue her studies at the Chicago School of Design. Beatrice then found work in Washington D.C. and was there when the war ended.
Creator
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Takeuchi, Beatrice
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
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video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7340d2fbbd56f5485a781b8e15fba4ad.mp4
76cb0f518e9858aa59e8817fe3026e7c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c0dc0ce31c26eb6ab68a3a4a02598e4.pdf
461e90df9df5f530fc3f80b4e5b13a2f
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge (Part 1 of 5)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 2:00:32
Interviewer: We are talking today with Roger Talmadge of Roanoke, Virginia and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, start us off with a little bit of background on yourself. And to begin with,
where and when were you born?
Veteran: I am Roger Stewart Talmadge. I am one of three sons of my dear mother and father. I
was born in Glen Ridge, New Jersey on the 16th of October, 1937.
Interviewer: Okay. And then, did you grow up in New Jersey? Or did you move around?
Veteran: Well, I was raised by Mary Wilson and I found out years later that she was a woman of
color. I never knew the difference. Anyway, she loved my brother and myself and I grew up to
about four and a half years. And then, of course, the war had started and my father was
transferred. He was a salesman and he sold materials for making uniforms so he was—when I
was about four, four and a half—we moved to Dallas, Texas. And we lived there a year. And
then after a year, about ’43 or early ’44, we moved to St. Louis, Missouri where I grew up, until I
joined the military.
Interviewer: Okay. And how much schooling did you get initially?
�2
Veteran: When I first got in the Navy on the 23rd of October,1954 I had 10 years. And then I
went to—I got in the Navy Reserve and became an aviation electronic technician. And when I
went to boot camp, it was a special training unit because in the Korean War when the Navy hit
the beach on that invasion of North Vietnam, the LSTs were sunk by artillery and so the blue
jackets with Navy personnel would dismount the ship and pick up an M1 Garand that no one was
using on the beach—beach that the Marines had landed—and try to engage to join in the battle.
And the gunny would say, “Over the hill.” And the big guy would stand up and get hit and of
course I had to haul them away. So, in my Navy boot camp, I learned Marine infantry tactics and
other kinds of things that Marines do. (00:02:28)
Interviewer: Okay. When you were telling that story, you were referencing invasion of
North Vietnam. Did you mean North Korea at that point?
Veteran: North Korea. Thank you. North Korea.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Not Vietnam, North Korea.
Interviewer: Now, to back up a little bit. So, you basically—you went through 10th grade
and then you enlisted in the Navy? Okay. And what motivated that?
Veteran: Well, my brother got in and he was a college graduate from I guess MIT or some place
like that. And so, he was flying some kind of a circuit. He called it a weatherology kind of thing
from the United States across the Ozarks and back again on a regular tour. And I found out later
on he was also…they were hunting submarines. My brother 2 years older than me also got in the
Navy. But he got in both—that was active duty. And my brother Larry got in the Navy also. And
�3
but—he got out immediately because they found out he had epilepsy and so he got out. So, I got
in the Navy Reserve, trying to see what I could do and still finish my high school training.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you enlist in the Naval Reserve…Now this is 1954, so you
were 17 years old at that time?
Veteran: I was—my 16th birthday, it was a week after my 16th birthday that I joined the Navy
Reserve.
Interviewer: Okay. I think you had told me you were born…Let’s see, in ’37? And…
Veteran: This is ’54.
Interviewer: You’d be 17 years, I guess. I don’t think they would take you at 16. They
would take you at 17. (00:04:09)
Veteran: That’s good point.
Interviewer: Yeah. That’s the math. That’s also the math but okay.
Veteran: It is also an error. And my parents had to sign me in, because I was 16.
Interviewer: Okay. Well, they would have to sign you in if you were 17 too.
Veteran: They would too but I was 16.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Alright, so anyway—so you have gone and you joined in and so
once you have signed up, now what did they do with you? Where do you get your initial
training—your basic training?
Veteran: I went up to Wold-Chamberlain Naval Air Station up there in Minneapolis and I got my
basic training, my boot camp training, there. And then, I returned back to my…it was an attack
�4
fighter squadron at Naval Air Station Lambert Field. And stayed there until the…until…I guess
it was June of ’56, 1956. And I went back up to Wold-Chamberlain and got my electronics
training. I also had a 60-man drill team that we took around the state of Minnesota for display or
whatever. Whatever they wanted for when they wanted a military unit. And the only reason they
did that is because of my Marine drill training—drill master training.
Interviewer: Okay. So, and that was what you had gotten at the original boot camp when
you were started training?
Veteran: Yeah, I learned that in the original boot camp. When I came back, they recognized me
from my former time and so they—the 60-man team—there I promised them girls and drinks.
And every place we went, they met girls and had drinks. (00:06:03)
Interviewer: Yeah, there they were. Alright, just to clarify here: you joined the Naval
Reserve so does that mean that you’re…Is that the weekend warrior thing initially?
Veteran: It’s a weekend warrior. I went to training once a month at Naval Air Station at Lambert
Airfield.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then once a year, 2 weeks out of the year, I would live there and continue the
training. I worked on F9F attack fighters, aircraft. They folded up their wings at night. And also,
worked on P2V Neptunes, which was a Hunter-Killer multi engine turbo jet.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Aircraft.
Interviewer: Now, were you being given specialized training for that?
�5
Veteran: Yes, absolutely. I was in electronics. I was a certified electronics technician. I worked
on navigation equipment.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did they give you that training in St. Louis or did they send you
other places for that?
Veteran: I got the initial—the basic—training at Wold-Chamberlain.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then the experience where I had to practice it in Lambert Airfield.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you got to the technical training up in Minnesota too along with the
drill training and the rest of it?
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now then, how long do you stay with—in St. Louis?
Veteran: Well, I stayed with the Navy Reserve and also, I got involved with recruiting. I went to
the Armed Forces recruiting station, whatever they called them in those days, and so I could get
in high school where they couldn’t because I was a high schooler. And so, I got in all the high
schools in the Webster Groves area, which is one of the suburbs of St. Louis. And beyond,
surrounding that area. And so, I could—when they had some kind of event, I could hand out
pamphlets for the Army, the Marine Corps, the Navy, and Air Force. So, and that’s how I got to
know the Army recruiter. And the Army recruiter said, “You know, we read your scores. When
you got in the Navy, when you joined on the 23rd of October, ’54. [so he really was 17—chalk up
one for the interviewer] You got high scores on that. Why don’t you take our little test and see
what you think.” (00:08:28)
�6
Veteran: So, I went and when it came out, they said, “We could send you directly to officer
candidate school right now.” And I thought to myself: I don’t know anything. You got to know
something to…You know, I had made petty officer which was moving up into the—that kind of
environment. But I just had to be honest with him. So, I…They said, “Well, how about some
other job?” And I didn’t know anything about infantry or any of that stuff. But they said, “How
about the intelligence service?” So, I did a little bit of homework on it and I said, “I will sign up
for that.” I didn’t know what I signed up for. But they did ship me to Germany. I went to basic
training. And when I went to basic training for the Army, it was in the engineers’ school in
Missouri. And again, the first—when you get there—you have a couple of days and you get sort
of organized. And then, they know that they have counted the number of people and they’ll put
you in—they’ll assign you to a rifle or rifle company of some training battalion. And you go
through 3 months of training. Well, when we—after a weekend—we showed up on a Monday
morning at our training site. And they put us in formation and they pulled 6 of us out of the
formation. And they had us line up next to each other. And we are looking at each other and said,
“Oh boy, we’re in trouble. Maybe they are going to put us on a truck and take us out a ways from
off the post.” And what they said, the sergeant said, “Gentlemen, these 6 men are your leaders.
You might not know that but I—there is one difference between you and them. Anybody want to
know why?” Somebody raised their hand, “No, sir.” “No, you call me sergeant. I can see my face
in their boots.” See, the Marines taught me that. (00:10:38)
Veteran: So, my boots were spit-shined like the rest of the guys. And I was one of the squad
leaders in a rifle platoon. There was about 3 platoons there. But also, I have a knack for
mimicking folks. In other words, I could—and that really helped me in that and learning foreign
languages later. What I did—my platoon training sergeant, he was a sergeant…I guess Sergeant
�7
First Class. And he was a boxer. He could have been professional for all I know but he wasn’t.
But he was a boxer and he represented the United States Army in some really interesting things
in boxing. And he got hit right here and it messed up his box—his voice box. And so, he had to
take a breath like this when he’d tell us what to do. And so, I got mimicking that. My
commanding officer was born and raised in New Jersey and he came behind the formation with
the platoon sergeant and he said, “What do we do? Court martial him or shoot him?” So, I just
ran into the formation, pretended like I didn’t move. But I had them—that’s the only—that
platoon was standing tall. Nobody else was, you know, goosing each other and messing around.
But I got after them. But anyway, that was kind of fun to…I didn’t realize that that would come
in handy later on. When we left the cantonment area, they pulled me outside the company, and
that’s 120 men, and they had me sing Marine in cadence songs. But some of them were
inappropriate for the cantonment area. So, we did that. (00:12:25)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, this is Fort Leonard Wood that you were at?
Veteran: Fort Leonard Wood.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, because you mentioned Missouri but I just for the record here I
wanted to make sure we had that on there. Because that’s where the engineer school is.
Okay. And then about how long did that basic training go on?
Veteran: 3 months.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and then once they finished that, did they give you intelligence
training? Or what happens next?
Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, I left that place I think it was June of…It must have been June of ’57. And
I progressed to Fort Howard Park, which is located just outside of Baltimore. And so, I was there
�8
another 3 months. And what they did, they covered the major military occupational specialties
for—that you would have as an enlisted man, just to sort of get sort of an introduction. So, I went
through that. And then, they said, “Okay, you’re going to be an order of battle specialist.” I went
through there and when I was talking to the sergeant trying to figure out what could I do in some
of those fields. I didn’t want to get hung up in technology because that is limiting. So, he said,
“Well, our managers are order of battle specialists. They organize. They look at things and they
organize things and all these skillsets come to work in those areas, depending on how it is
organized.” So, I signed up for that. And he promised me, he said, ‘Well, when you get your next
assignment, you go to your senior intelligence officer and have him give you a brief of the area
that he’s concerned about.” You know, I would probably get assigned to something and the
senior officer could give me that briefing. So, I said, “Well, is that a promise?” He said,
“Absolutely.” He didn’t know any—I didn’t know that that was one of those things. (00:14:28)
Veteran: So, I got aboard a ship and went across the Atlantic Ocean on the ship and they dropped
me off in Hamburg. And that was in June, the end of June, 1957. And I was transported there to
Oberursel, which is just about 11 kilometers outside of Frankfurt and Mainz.
Interviewer: Okay. And once you get there, now what happens to you? How are you
received?
Veteran: Well, I was processed in and they noted my specialty. And they gave me some
equipment, not much. And because when I was assigned to a unit, I would get whatever field
things that you need. So, I was getting oriented. So, I go downtown and I didn’t speak any
German. So, I just go downtown and go to the restaurants and I didn’t know what I was getting, I
just ordered food. And some of it I liked and some of it I had no idea what I was eating. But that
didn’t last for very long. And then they did assign me to the 7th United States Army with the
�9
525th MI [Military Intelligence] Battalion. And when I got in with them, that was further
orientation. And I went downtown with whoever the GIs were there. And trying to expose
myself to Germany. And so that lasted for a couple months. And eventually, I finally got—it
was—I was assigned to the 207th, the 207th MI Detachment. I was in error before. And there I got
all my frontline stuff. You know, whenever you have to maneuver, you have frontline stuff you
have to wear. I got my weapon. I don’t even know what it was. I guess it was an M-14. I used—
qualified with the M-1. I could hit a target at 1100 yards away. (00:16:54)
Veteran: But that is just a once in a lifetime thing. You don’t do—I’ll never do that again. But
they did train us at Fort Leonard Wood to do that. So then, I got to know some German—I lived
in a German safe house. And what it is, it’s a known facility but it is just away from everything.
And it used to be the servant quarters to some German who was a wealthy, wealthy land owner
or something. And the house was a mansion and we were in this small guest…guest whatever
you call it. Workers that cooked and took care of the property. To me, that was a mansion. It was
lovely. We had German ladies that would cook for us and that is where I learned different kinds
of foods. And we had some—our only vehicles were Army jeeps. We didn’t have any civilian—
any civilian, all military. (00:18:00)
Veteran: And so there, I went out along the Czech western border. And my first encounter was
probably July or August. I was on the Czech border and two German border police came up to
me and they said, “You come with me.” And so, they were saying, I guess, come with me or
something. I don’t know. But they—these guys were kind of bigger than me. I was going with
them anywhere. And so, they got me behind a big tree and then they said, “Now, show all.” And
they pointed to a tower and there is 3 towers: there is one right in front of me and 2 here. And
they had a 14.7-millimeter anti-aircraft gun that they were watching me. They were tracking me
�10
and they told me this in German. I translated that in English. I was in trouble. I didn’t know what
they said but they said that I should not move this way but move this way and away. And I did
do that. But I was within 100 yards of their border. And so, they wanted to get me away.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, why were you there? What had you been sent to do?
Veteran: Well, I was being oriented on my job. My job was to organize things but you had to be
familiar with what you’re dealing with. And there, I was able to—and I can draw it out to you, I
remember it still—the layout of the several—there’s 5 walls of barbed wire and it goes way high.
And then they have some fields that have land mines and then they have other kinds of things
that…And then they have the towers and the lights and all that other stuff. And one tower can
see two towers, the old Roman way of defense. And so, they had the place well-covered. They
also had some gates once in a while. And they’d come across and laugh at us and go back during
the winter months when it was skiing and they would close the gates up. I wasn’t there for that
but at least I was introduced to what it looked like all the way from west Germ—the complete
border from west Germany. And our section, that was sort of the southern portion of it where we
had our—we had people monitoring what is going there all around the clock. (00:20:23)
Interviewer: Yeah. So—
Veteran: My headquarters were back here and those little offices were all along the German
villages. What I did when I was in my detachment house, I’d go out with the German citizens
and these fellows were sons of some wealthy people. Like a great big furniture clearing house,
they built furniture, beautiful stuff, and then they would put it in a retail environment. Well, they
would take me downtown with me. And this was in Stuttgart. And April, 1944, the British and
the American bombers had leveled the city except for the old city. We always kept the old city so
�11
we could re-orient ourselves when they flew in there. And so, and that was the transportation—
north, south, east, west, crossing. So, they just tore out and bombed all of that stuff away. When I
got there in June and—well, July or whenever it was, August—they had already demonstrated
something and they killed some of our GIs. Put their heads in the fountain. So, when I went
downtown with these guys, and I would go into the Old Stadt and go into cities, restaurants or
places where you get drinks, the people from the opera house used to come in and perform. I
really heard some wonderful music and I was used to that from home. And so, now I got to see it
and hear it. And so, I was really thrilled with that. But they told these guys that I was deaf and
dumb so I said nothing. (00:22:11)
Veteran: But I learned a lot of language. And I would ask them about it later. And we got in a—
the police called us one night. We were driving along and that general area, I guess it was
Nuremberg this time. We were driving in the general area and I started making the sound of the
German police when they are after you, the doo da sound. And it sounded realistic and a police
car come up along side us and fined them 50 marks. He thought it was funny. I didn’t think it
was funny. It scared the willies out of me. But anyway, so I picked up a lot of words. In the
meantime, I worked on some crypto stuff. I had one of the old—it was a German cipher system.
And so, they had me work on that and do a little administration here, odds and ends, and they
also had me be the clerk, the company clerk. And you have to type everything first time correctly
and I made a lot of mistakes. A lot of papers I was throwing over my shoulder. Anyway, one
time when I was there, a Lieutenant Colonel Marratti shows up and he is the commanding officer
of the 525th MI Battalion. And he was out of Stuttgart and I was in Nuremberg so I got them
mixed up when I was talking about that other earlier about Stuttgart. But anyway, he asked me is
there any needs I have? Yeah, Nuremberg. And I asked him, I said, “Really, this job here is—I
�12
am really having a hard time with it but I am trying my very best, sir. Very best. I do have a
need: one of my recruiters promised me that I should go to the senior intelligence officer in my
local command and get a brief on what he is confronted by and that way I could organize for my
detachment commander. I could organize this great big roll up map to reflect what he is facing
and then change it because we got reports every day. And very seldom did it change anything on
the other side but once in a while, they caught something moving and that—then I had to
interpret what that meant. If they went this way, sideways, that was one thing but if they are
coming towards you, that is different.” (00:24:38)
Veteran: So, the Colonel laughed. He said, “Okay. I’ll get back to you on that one.” So, about 3
weeks or 4 weeks, I don’t know what it was, I forgot about it. My detachment commander, who
was a major, called me in the office and he said, “Sir,”—I was a private—he said, “Young man,
Colonel Marratti has set you up with a briefing with the senior intelligence officer for the
command. It just so happens to be the G2 of the 7th United States Army in Stuttgart. You’ll take
a train there and stay over-night and get briefed by him, take a train and come back and tell me
what he tells you.” Oh man. So, I made sure my uniform—I wore the old Ike jacket and all that
stuff—made sure it was—I had it tailor-made so I looked pretty sharp. I didn’t weigh anything so
it didn’t matter. So, I went in, got settled in my little barracks. And then the next morning I went
over there at 9 and reported in to the secretary. And so, the secretary, or whatever the sergeant
there, took me into the office and sat me down in the briefing room. And the briefing room could
hold about 30 people and I was the only guy in there. And he sat me right in the middle up front
and here is this huge board with this map on it and—of Germany. And so, I just sat there. And
this tall guy comes in: he is a full colonel. (00:26:09)
�13
Veteran: And he said, “Son, I have come to brief you. Your sergeant said that you—I am going
to give you that briefing.” And I didn’t know what to do. He says, “Now, you just sit right here.”
And so, he started at one end and went to the other end and he explained to me that if you have
something that’s armored, it is painted yellow. If it’s tanks, it is something else. If it’s engineers,
it is something else. Infantry, you got several types of it and it is blue. And if it’s airborne it has
got one symbol and if it is mechanized it’s got another symbol. If it is just for soldiers, it is
another symbol. And they have certain rank—each one is different strength and so forth. And
depending on what is happening, they will get them in combinations of groups, a task force. So,
they will have a lot of stuff. They will even have artillery and some of it is mobile. You know, it
is mobile artillery. And so, he went all through that stuff and that is red. He asked, “Any
questions?” So, I asked a bunch of questions. And I made notes. I mean, I was making notes, I
had my notebook and I was going and all this stuff my mind was trying to figure out how to
make—how to take what he did and duplicate that for the major, Major Brown at the
detachment. So, I got finished with that and he said, “Well son, I want you to know something.”
I said, “What is that, sir?” The lowest rank I’ve ever briefed this briefing is a 2-star major
general. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you have any questions, son, you call me.” Well, I left. I
saluted and left. So, it took me a while but I got it. And his office had one of these jail gates in it,
you know? Steel bars. And his map was classified because of that knowledge. It would confirm
to some outsider that we knew more than what they knew that we knew.
Interviewer: Right. (00:28:13)
Veteran: So, I looked at that monster, I said, “Well sir, I think I am going to need some time in
here.” “Fine.” So, what I did is I color coded the whole—everything was black and white—I
color coded the whole thing and you could tell where the armored was located and if they
�14
moved, that is very sensitive stuff. If the artillery moves behind them, that’s really big stuff. I
mean, not only does that cause interest in our battalion, which is intelligence, but also for our
division, our corps, and our 7th United States Army. And I wanted him to know whatever, I could
figure it out. So anyway, we color coded all of that and you could look at it and you could see
where that stuff was and when it moved, he was able to do things to it and they could see when
something was happening. So, when the Berlin Wall came up on the 13th of August in 1963,
50,000 tanks moved closer to the border. So, that was kind of neat. I was in Italy at the time. I
had to come back quickly for that. But anyway—
Interviewer: I think that would have been ’61?
Veteran: Was it ’61?
Interviewer: Berlin Wall, yeah.
Veteran: ’61…
Interviewer: Yeah, Cuban Missile Crisis is 1962.
Veteran: 1961—
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: 13th, ’61. You’re right. I am glad you caught that.
Interviewer: I am a historian.
Veteran: Good, because you—see, I still was there.
Interviewer: Right.
�15
Veteran: I stayed there. I was there in country until ’62 so not ’63. Okay, so that is when the wall
went up. And so, that was significant. After putting up the wall, they moved themselves to—it
was a show of force. And that was one of the things I had to learn: what some of these
formations mean. I didn’t know that part. But I knew that it meant it’s a show of danger. That’s
all I could figure out. So… (00:30:13)
Interviewer: Alright. Now see, you kind of laid out for us what it meant to be an order of
battle specialist. You’re identifying where all the enemy forces are and keeping track of
them and so forth. And so, you have done that by creating the map and this kind of thing.
What other kinds of jobs did you have while you were in Germany? When you did that
part—
Veteran: Okay, so that part I was very diligent with that and I spent a lot of time downtown on
the weekends. I bought the commanding officers old 1949 Ford and did whatever to it to, not
spruce it up, but to make sure it was running right. And then I would look at the little money I
had—I didn’t have a lot of money, I was still a private. They lost my prior service records or
didn’t, whatever, and that money came in later. And but anyway, so I looked at the little money I
had and the exchange rate to German marks was good then, very fine, so I would figure out what
that meant and then I’d go out. I’d go north for a while and stop, go to some village and I’d go to
the local Stube, which is a restaurant, and I’d look for a bunch of old guys and I would sit down
with them. And I’d tell them, “Ich bin Amerikaner. Ich will Deutsch lernen.” That’s all. That’s
all I told them. I said, “I am an American and I want to learn German.” And so, they would tell
me some off the wall stories and I would get but part of it and but they are all laughing and
having a good time. And they enjoyed it: a young man that wants to have a heart for Germany. It
�16
goes back to this guy with a throat thing, figure out where he lives. I didn’t know that I was
doing that but I was doing that. (00:32:14)
Veteran: And so, then I would go east and then I would go south and different places. And I still
went to these guys that I got in trouble with when the Germans come over in Nuremberg. So, I
continue that. I work with this crypto thing and whenever it failed, I figured some kind of
algorithm. I didn’t know it was an algorithm but I figured some mathematical way to fix it. I’d be
deep into a message, deciphering it, and the thing would, I don’t know, maybe I hiccupped or
burped or something. And so, I figured a way to catch back up where it messed up and then go
form there. I mean, that was a sequential thing but nonetheless. And I was able to do that quickly
because the machine was a quick machine to catch up. So, I did that for a while and then at some
point, the detachment commander would call 2 of us. There was a guy that had a really
intelligent fellow. And he came from North Carolina. And his name was Bill. And so, Bill and I
were called in the office to the detachment commander, Major Brown. He said, “They’re looking
for 80 men to get some special training and we would like you to apply for it. We will support
you. And you might not get it but, you know, there is a lot of people that will be applying for it.
They’re going after people in Europe because they are already here. They have some kind of a—
and also, they want to know if you’re teachable.” And I didn’t know he was looking for
something specific and he couldn’t tell me. Teachable? Okay. So, here’s this little detachment so
he and I put in our stuff. And he has a nice resume, did well in college, all the right kinds of
things, met all the right kind of people. His uncle was the commanding general of 7th U.S. Corps.
he is a—I mean, he was a lieutenant general. I even went down to see him, just for the heck of it.
(00:34:22)
�17
Veteran: So, anyway, so alright. So, we put this stuff in and I am guessing 100-150 people put
their names in it. And the 80 were selected and Bill and I were—we were both PFCs at the
time—we got promoted. And so, they—we went down there. And these other guys are sergeants,
lieutenants, and captains, and it stopped at captains. There is a reason for that. And alright, so we
got down there and then they selected the language. I don’t know what Bill got but I got Polish
and that is a real blessing. Remember, I was the most uneducated one of the bunch and I needed
everything that would help me. Polish is the only Slavic language that is written in Latin letters. I
didn’t know that. But it really helped. And as the letters are laid out, that is exactly how you
pronounce it. So, that was—so, pronouncing it was also good. Now, I had a couple of really good
teachers that pushed us hard and such like that. So, I learned Polish and I got—I think I got a B+
or something in that course. I had to do a couple of things and that was reading, writing, and also
to be able to use my skills in interrogations. You may have to do that too. Now, I was the
youngest guy in the class and there is a lieutenant, at least a couple lieutenants, that thought I was
a problem because I was different than anybody else. I wasn’t quite strack, as you call it, and
refined was the other word. And so, they would get after me for all kinds of silly things. I also
had a terrible allergy and so in bright lights like this, I had to wear sunglasses in my classroom
and they—little things like that really upset them. But nonetheless, got through that course and
did fine and survived them. And then, then we took a maybe a couple days break and then
switched to go into German. So, the people that were taking Slavic language the first time were,
first half of the course—6 months , would take German. The others—they switched the others
around so you—so the Slavic language folks had always a new bunch every 6 months.
(00:36:54)
�18
Veteran: So, we got into class and 2 of our classes were set aside. And you walked in the
classroom and I had 12 or 13 or 14 other fellows in there. And this other class had the same thing
and I don’t know what else happened. Or maybe less, maybe we had 10 in those. Small class.
And so, I thought oh well, hmmm…So, he came up and he said, “I am Mr. Walters. I got in the
service in…” whatever it was; 1940 or something like that. And he learned English. He could
speak all kinds of dialect whether in Chicago, St. Louis, New York, California, doesn’t matter.
And he demonstrated that for us a little bit. Now, I was supposed to land on the shores of New
Jersey in 1944 but then we had some visitors that showed up at Normandy so I was changed to
that. So, I was fighting the American and British and anybody else forces on their borders. And
of course, I was in Germany for a long time. He was in—we only had one German fighting us
because everyone else was still fighting the Russians. (00:38:13)
Veteran: That’s what they told me. Everybody I met said, “Oh, I was fighting the Russians. I was
always on the Eastern Front of…Well, hmmm.” So, he was the only—so, what he would do: he
would listen to the battalions as they are talking to the companies on their radio and he’d mimic
them. Oh, I can relate to that. And then, he sent bales of hay to the artillery units and the artillery
ammunition to a transportation unit. And then the war ended and I don’t know where they picked
them up but they hired him to be our teacher. And then he went on to say, “*speaking German*”
[what he says translates to “From now on we only speak German. No more English.] So
basically, he shut us off and we didn’t speak English in the class ever again. But he took
advantage of that to take us out on the town to different things to introduce us to instead of me
going there and saying, “Ich mag essen,” I’d like to eat and sometimes it was good and
sometimes it was bad. I learned the good stuff was schnitzel and the other stuff you don’t eat
because it is something else. But he helped us with that. And let’s see…Nothing in particular.
�19
Interviewer: Did he do German dialect at all or different parts of Germany?
Veteran: Well, what happened—what really helped me is I speak a kind of a German, it’s not the
Hoch Deutsch, I can’t do that. But basically, I would speak in Dusseldorf. When I was able to
pick up Schwabisch, and it’s a difficult language. It is close to Stuttgart. And I used to go to the
restaurants. And I could pick up their dialect. I just sensed it. (00:40:06)
Veteran: And then I go to Bavaria and they speak completely different. Bavaria is completely
different. And for instance, you’re walking down a street and they say, “Ris Gott,” which means,
“Greet God” you know and you do this. And no, it’s just a hi, hello. And but nobody else says
that. And they had these little colloquialisms. And I had a whole book of them that I had learned.
The fact is, I got so good at it I couldn’t even translate it. I just used it. And so, that was kind of
interesting. But no, the German—it came along well. And I had at least 4 or 5 dialects I could
use. Now, if I were to ever use—I was told that by a captain—that if something happens…In
other words, we go to war? You’re going to be assigned to the Pripet Marshes. And the Pripet
Marshes is the marshes of 5 rivers. You know where that is located?
Interviewer: Yeah. But that’s a good ways east of where you were.
Veteran: Well, the thing is that’s where the irregular forces would gather.
Interviewer: Mhmm, in World War 2 yeah. The partisans against the Germans were there.
Veteran: That’s correct. And that connectivity was still there. And so, what they would do with
us: they’d drop us off some evening, and then we had all our communications that we could use
to bring in supplies or whatever else, or anything that we could pick up intelligence-wise would
help the effort to interdict the long lines of supply coming from Russia into the east. I mean, into
the west. And I was told—and the Russian tactics were—that once they run out of something,
�20
they forage for it. Fuel, basic things. They couldn’t get parts for their vehicles but they could
certainly get other things. So, we’d interrupt that as much as we could. (00:42:14)
Veteran: There was no pick-up plan though. It was a one-way ticket. That was it. Didn’t have
any German. Didn’t have any English—anything with me. I have no markings whatsoever. And
that was the other reason for all of us—no tattoos that they could relate to anything. And so, my
second story and last story was I was a German citizen in a foreign country. The captain told me
that. I said, “How will I get—how do you get there?” I am over there now, in Bavaria. “How in
the world do I get there? You know, the road is probably going to be blocked. The trains are
going to be blocked. You can’t go by train. There is no boats I know you can get into Poland.”
So, he said, “Well, we are going to drop you off airborne.” I said, “But I am not airborne
qualified, Captain.” He said, “Son, I understand, but you will be when you land.” And that was
when they introduced—that’s the only time I heard of it. Now, supposedly that assignment
continued for a number of years afterwards and then it dissipated because the equipment that we
now have, we can pick up all that movement activity or whatever else and try to interdict it way
before it becomes a threat. So, that—I stayed that way and then I moved after my training—I
went back to the 513th MI group and I worked in the debriefing interrogation section. And people
would come across on the borders, any of them, East Germany to West, Hungary or
Czechoslovakia primarily. And I could slur my Polish and talk to the ones from Czechoslovakia.
It was close. I couldn’t write it. And so, I developed reports and that was turned into
Bundesnachrichtendienst, that was the—that’s right, German intelligence service. And what they
would run is background checks and then the ones that were kind of interest, they would come
pick up. And that was at our facility. (00:44:27)
�21
Veteran: The other ones were filtered out to where they were integrated into the German society
to get them jobs and places to sleep or you know, whatever. And become German citizens. On
one occasion, I once in a while would fly out of Wiesbaden and I’d fly into Berlin into…I forget
the name of the airfield.
Interviewer: Is it Tempelhof?
Veteran: Yes. Thank you. And we’d fly by those buildings. We flew over—they flew over the
same buildings when carrying coal in ’49, ’48, ’50 and so forth at Tempelhof. And I picked up
some people and then flew back in a turbo top U.S. Air Force bird. Got him in to—debriefed
him. And found out he was a major general in the East German Air Force. He was the assistant
chief of staff for them. And he got out by himself by coming through Berlin. Came by the SBahn. And so, we noted all of that because we needed to know how to go the other way. So,
they—the Germans were really interested in him. And so, we turned him over to them and it took
about 6 weeks and we got his family out with the children, no losses, out of Potsdam. And they
haven’t figured out today how that happened. That was before the wall came up. So, alright, so
about 5 or 6 months pass. And I really got to know this guy. He helped my German a little bit. I
picked up what he—how they operate in East Germany. And so anyway, I was—I don’t know
where I was. I was at some kind of a social gathering, dance or something, with the unit. And 2
military policemen came in and they come up to me and said, “We have a visitor at the gate and
he wants to speak to Roger and you’re the only Roger we know.” (00:46:33)
Veteran: “Okay, fine.” So, I excused myself and went out to the gate and here’s this guy and they
said, “Oh, you know him?” “Yes, I know him.” He was driving a tractor for an 18-wheeled
vehicle but he left a trailer downtown, wherever that was. And so, we—I got him on post and we
sat down, had coffee, and visited. And he told me, “I can’t tell you but I got a new name. you can
�22
guess what I am.” He was in the Dusseldorf area. He had a new name, he was a truck driver, his
family was up there. They are all in school and doing well. Of course, they speak the language.
That’s not a problem. And he said, “I used to be in charge in the East German Air Force of all
this and now I just drive an 18-wheeled truck anywhere they want me to drive it. I get paid a
whole lot more and I am free.” So, he just wanted to thank me. Isn’t that neat?
Interviewer: Wow. Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, that’s neat.
Interviewer: That’s pretty impressive.
Veteran: That is neat. So then, from there, I left that assignment and I worked for—I still was
associated with the 513th. But I can’t go in any detail about it. It was a forerunner to…It was an
off-shoot of the OSS. And so, we—I got into human intelligence side of the house. And I got
involved with connectivity with just about anybody in Europe, including that side. But…and I
stayed in that position from 1960-62. And it was during that time, one of my supervisors got
ahold of me and said—and I was going to school at night. I had already got a half a—I got two
years of half a degree. Associate degree from the University of Maryland. (00:48:31)
Veteran: And so, he said, “You ought to go to Officer Candidate School. And so—but you have
to go through—we have to talk to you and discuss things and vet you and just check you out
before they even recommend you for that kind of thing. So, why don’t you—to get practice at
being interviewed and that kind of thing—why don’t you go through this effort.” So, I signed up
to become a direct commission. And I did. I went through that stuff and they would tell me to
read the newspaper, read particularly the sports section and know the players by name and find
some way to make them laugh. Hmm…Well, and I was just a brand-new sergeant. What do I—I
�23
didn’t know anything; I was about 25 years old at that point in time. And so, I started the process
and I got through one board and that turned out nicely. And I did all those things. So, I really
studied. I was encouraged and I kept doing—reading more and looking at things. I am trying to
find out what I was slow on in the first round and dig more, get more of that stuff. Tell some
personal experience that were hilarious and possibly shouldn’t be mentioned, meaning it wasn’t
classified, it was compromising. (00:50:06)
Veteran: So, they liked that. And I continued on. And then, I got to a point where they said,
“Okay, now we got to…You seem to be a good candidate. So, we are going to start—we are
going to put you through the physical stuff. Check you out physically and whatever else we need
to do.” So, I went through that. And the only thing I got hung up on was my allergies. They were
so…I used the word that says they are all the time and a doctor from Heidelberg wrote back and
said, “Does he want a direct commission or not? Really. Tell him to write seasonal hay fever.”
And I did. And that actually—when I started taking care—they told me how to take care of
myself, it became seasonal hay fever. I just was not taking care of myself. So, anyway, I got that
direct commission in June of 1962. And then, so I was transferred out of this assignment I had in
downtown…Downtown Frankfurt. Frankfurt is close, or like I say, 11 kilometers apart. And
while I was in there, my—it was my first wife and myself, we created a touring…No, it wasn’t.
No, we didn’t. It wasn’t then; that comes later. But anyway, I left that assignment and I came
back to the original place that I came in June of ’57. And they made me a deputy executive
officer and they are getting ready for inspector general. Now, you know and I know that I have
been through a lot of stuff on how to get ready for inspections and how to look like something.
And of course, your room has to be right and everything in your locker has to be orderly and it’s
a certain place and all that. So, I went in there and tore the place up and got everybody mad at
�24
me. And the captain was West Point. And I don’t know what in the world—I don’t know what
his executive officer was. He didn’t know what to—he did not know what to think of that. And I
told him, “Sir, if you’re not blunt, they’re not going to do anything. They’ll flunk out. If I were
the inspector general, I’d have given you an F. That’s what I would have done.” And that’s what
I would have done. Anyway, so he—okay, alright—he listened to that. And I thought a West
Point officer was a little bit different than that but I found out you have West Point officers and
other officers and the other officers usually know how to relate to you but the West Point officers
are a little distant. And in some cases, rightfully so. (00:52:52)
Veteran: They need to be. They’re officers. But anyway, they need to communicate too. But
anyway, so then we had an inspection one time and the outfit was out there. He wanted me to
walk behind him, next to him but behind him, and inspect the troops and then he would critique
me and the first sergeant on what they might want to do. and quite frankly, they looked really
sharp, except this little guy about this tall, about 4 foot or so tall, was walking next to me dressed
in a captain’s uniform. So, we get finished with all of that. I was just—I was just—I was really
upset but I was really moved by that but I just had to really bite my tongue. So, we get in the
building and I chewed him out. “As a West Point officer, you just insulted everybody out there
and you’re not kidding anybody. You don’t dress your child up as an officer where they have—
you salute the uniform, not the person. And if you think they are saluting you because you are a
West Point officer, there is something wrong with this. And I hope I didn’t upset you.” He said,
“Oh no, that’s fine.” Well anyway, they looked sharp. They really looked sharp. The only thing
that—I said, “Don’t show up to a formation with him dressed like that ever again. He’s your son,
let him follow you in other ways.” (00:54:08)
�25
Veteran: So then, the other thing I did, which is kind of unique, before I left that command in
’62, September, I walked into the non-commissioned officers’ club with my hat on. Do you
know what that means? You buy the drinks. So, I put $200 on the counter. I said, “Yesterday it
was Roger. Today, it’s sir. Drinks are on me. When I walk out of here, I am Lieutenant
Talmadge and blow it out your butt otherwise.” And so, that’s how we took—they grew up with
me. These guys were teaching me stuff or getting mad at me because of whatever. And it’s
normal things. And so, that’s how I ended that tour of duty. I came back to the United States and
then into Fort Hood, into the 203rd MI detachment.
Interviewer: Okay. Just to back up a little bit. I mean, you mentioned sort of your human
intelligence assignment was one you can’t say a whole lot about. Did that involve actually
going into Eastern Europe? Or did you stay within West Germany and our side?
Veteran: I stayed on the west side. I didn’t cross over. I had plans…if I did, it was under wartime
conditions.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The only time I was compromised in 1960, one of my Polish instructors, a lady, had me
over for supper. And she kept…Oh, she kept asking me a lot of questions. She must have had a
tape recorder somewhere. But they got my photograph, they got everything. And so, I changed
jobs right after that. I mean, when I came into Oberammergau, I was nowhere. And then, when I
worked in downtown Frankfurt, I was also nowhere. And whatever I did was 1 time but I never
did it again. In fact, that’s how I was working on operation. And I wasn’t trained in this human
stuff. But I understood that you never did something twice. And I caught about 20 of our folks
who were…I was doing the sergeant major’s administration. All these master sergeants and all
�26
that stuff that were trained and really good in their languages, they were out there making
contacts and monitoring the guys that did kind of go over there. (00:56:37)
Veteran: But we didn’t go over there. Bottom line is they were using some of the same cars, the
same apartments or other buildings that other people were and built a network. I compromised
the whole thing so I turned it in. They shut that operation down. They were on us. They were on
us. They could tell who we were. So, I went some place I closed out, which I was a newbie. I
was given a .32 caliber pistol with 5 rounds in it. One chamber had to be empty for safety
purposes. I went to one place and cleaned the place out. And I left. I was wearing a kind of a
sporty jacket, tie, and all that stuff. And these 5 guys, these well-developed older gentlemen were
outside waiting for me. And I came by and they just…and I kept going. And another time—so I
thought that was close. Another time, I borrowed one of the cars that we got from some agency
here in the United States. And it was a Saab. an S-A-A-B, and it has a shifter system. I could
drive any foreign built, European car, but I hadn’t driven this. And I drove it out of the motor
pool and I had a hard time gearing down and then I….And I came to a stop sign and rolled
through it and I was trying to get it in gear and these two horsemen rode up, came up next to me
and knocked on the window and I rolled the window down. And they said, “You rolled through
the—” in German—no, in English, they told me: “You drove through that stop sign.” And I said,
“I am having trouble with this car. I haven’t driven it before.” In German. And then so—I got it
in gear and I jammed it in whatever—first gear I could get it in—and I said as I drove away, I
said, “You can just go use this 10 marks or whatever it is to go by coffee.” And I roared out of
the place. (00:58:52)
�27
Veteran: Now, he could have written my—they could have written my—they were laughing.
They could have written my license plate down. It would have been easy to find me. There was
really nothing to—that was an easy one. But anyway…So, that was sort of wound down that.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, this…So, now we have made it into ’62 and now you complete
that assignment. And now you’re going to move on to your next assignment in Fort Hood,
Texas.
Veteran: Which was at Fort Hood.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Let me tell you when I went to Hood.
Interviewer: Okay. So, we have gotten to the point in your story where you have now gone
back to the States, you go to Fort Hood, Texas. What are you doing there?
Veteran: I am a second lieutenant and this is my first official assignment as a second lieutenant
of the military intelligence. They didn’t have a branch insignia but they were going to have one
so I wore engineer brass. That was a cover. But it didn’t mean anything. And then they put me in
charge: I was a detachment commander and I had command status of prisoner of war,
interrogation of prisoners of war detachment. And my detachment was unique. They have
detachments on the east coast that are geared towards Europe, that part of the world, Africa. And
on the…in Texas, against Asia. Well, mine? I had one of my Russian speakers with me that I
served with. He was a master sergeant. (01:00:34)
Veteran: But it was really neat. So, I had him as my number two man. He was a really excellent
gentleman. Just a fine gentleman. Wonderful family. Now, when I was in Germany, I did get
�28
married. And from that marriage, we had 3 children. So, they were born…2 of them were born in
Europe and 1 was born in Fort Hood. But in the 203rd MI detachment, we had a regular
housekeeping training and the things that you do. And then, we would also gear up for field
exercises. And I participated in 2 rather complex field exercises that took place in South—North
and South—Carolina. And we would…One time, we went there and the aggressor forces was the
5th Mechanized Division. The second time we went there, it was, I guess, elements of the 101st
Airborne and some other mechanized division. I forget who it was. So, we had to prepare for
that. And so, that’s where we pulled our—pulled out our bag of tricks. And these folks I was
with, every one of them was either reserve officer, maybe regular Army, but I don’t think I had
West Pointers in that. And so then, my commander was Lieutenant Colonel Rose, a very find
gentleman. Thought through things very well. And so, he wanted to do things correctly. The
stuffy people were at Corps headquarters. (01:02:27)
Veteran: Now, the G2, which is the intelligence officer for 3rd United States Corps, he’s kind of a
stuffed shirt. And so really, you know what my background is. When I passed him, I’d salute
him; give him a nice high ball. And he wouldn’t return the salute so I turned him in. And I was
probably one of the only officers he’d return the salute. I could care less. I am not there to make
friends. And I didn’t realize it: that’s probably my downfall. But anyway, so getting ready
for…So, we were a strack unit, which means if bad things happen, the 18th Airborne Corps over
here in North Carolina, and the 3rd Corps in Fort Hood, Texas would gear up and get ready for it.
And of course, that comes up. When I was in the Fort Hood unit—when things kind of got messy
and the Cuban Crisis…But meantime, we went to this training. And so, what we did is I went out
there and we maneuvered. We landed in Columbia, South Carolina. We were the red forces. We
were the bad guys. And I didn’t pay attention to a whole lot of stuff. But I do know that some
�29
people in South Carolina didn’t like the bad guys. So, they sprayed our equipment with graffiti
and all kinds of odds and ends. You know? “Pigs go home” that kind of stuff. I don’t know.
(01:04:04)
Veteran: They did that. They did. And of course, the blue forces were the good guys and they
went out there with coffee and donuts and we didn’t get any coffee and donuts. But I
befriended…I befriended—one guy came down to bring us coffee and donuts. We went down to
the river and maybe took a shower down there because we had to shower in that unit. And so, he
would bring little treats that somebody baked. I think like that. He was a very nice gentleman.
And he was an comptroller there for the Kershaw County. And so, he got to know us and I don’t
know, I can’t remember his background military-wise but gosh—he was a Marine, that’s what.
And so, he said, “Is there anything I can do for you? I love coming down here and visiting with
you fellows and I appreciate what you are doing. This is a war game and I understand you have
to do the best you can and some of our local folks have taken advantage of that.” And so on. He
was trying to ask forgiveness for them on their part. Anyway, so he introduced—he took me one
evening to the meeting of the Kershaw County Marines, or Marines of Kershaw County…Post?
Something.
Interviewer: Right. Like a Marine Corps League or something like that?
Veteran: Yeah, a Marine Corps League. And so, we chatted for a while. And they said, “Yeah,
lieutenant, what can we do for you?” And so, I said, “I think we need some help.” So, what we
did…Didn’t know exactly the rules but we were supporting this operation with what we had
from Fort Hood. We had some…I forget the forces we had. But nonetheless, we had—with
permission of Lieutenant Colonel Rose—we had about 5 guys grow beards. (01:06:19)
�30
Veteran: And then we sent them to the Carolinas 2 months before we got there. And all they did
was just get to know people. And these were—these guys were seasoned soldiers. They knew
what they were doing. They had had some infantry background and that kind of stuff. Airborne.
And bottom line is got to know some very key people in South Carolina. And parts, only certain
parts, of North Carolina. And there is a reason for that. So, we showed up and we really didn’t
talk to them. Nobody ever saw us stick together. I was in my little unit and I was in my little MI
group unit and we did our work and we…housekeeping things and whatever. I’d go out and
interrogate. Sometimes we would capture somebody. And we’d interrogate them. So, we had that
kind of thing going on. There’s a unit that came into some place where they were close to us.
And so, I had my jeep, I had a PPSH, which is a 1941 Soviet machine gun, I had one of those
with me. And so, I captured a deuce and a half and all the equipment on board and 2 soldiers and
found out where the commander was. And he was down the road a piece in a restaurant with his
20 or 30 soldiers. Captured all of them. And he was mad. He was really—he said, “Don’t point
that thing at me.” And so, we wrote that all up and turned that in…
Interviewer: Alright so you… (01:08:16)
Veteran: And turned that information in. And we did that for whatever—a while it was. But that
was good training for our guys. And what happened with—one of the things I found out—so this
is where I needed to know this later on. There was an area, and you could mask it, it was large
and large area. And for some reason, from 2 o’clock on Thursday morning to maybe the next
day, 2 o’clock in the morning, that large field was going to—all of that electricity was going to
be turned off. Already been coordinated with the neighborhood. And there was no lines in that
area but there was electricity in that area. But they were open fields for farming. So, we
surrounded it with a bunch of tanks. Next day, here comes some brigade and they parachute in
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there with the general and we captured the general. And he pulled rank on us and we said, “Sir, I
wasn’t really—” I wasn’t with the capturing party but—“sir, with all due respect, get in this
damn jeep.” And so, we hauled him into the place and brought him to General Dunn, who was a
3-star general, 3rd Corps. And he said, “I am sorry, general, but you are my prisoner.” And so,
that was one of those—I didn’t realize. I knew they would need to make contact but I didn’t
know what it was. In the meantime, these folks from the Kershaw—the Marine Corps League
from Kershaw County made me an honorary member. And they would take their vehicles out
and then they’d come back and report order of battle. And they’d read the—they knew how to
read the numbers on the jeeps and the tanks and the…whatever they had. And so, they would
report where they were located and I just reported that up directly as much as I could. (01:10:17)
Veteran: And so, we sent bombing raids over them to get their supply points. Or we readjusted
ourselves because a whole bunch of people from over here looked like they were going to do
something mean soon. So, we had to either beef it up or leave. So, we did that and on one
occasion, when we were doing this, the second time we returned, we got worse. I mean, we
really did some bad things. So, we did—had the same intelligence, activities, and such like that.
But on the second round, we got them really engaged in a lot of…they almost drained the
military basin in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And they had all the troops down where we were.
And so, we sent a contingent of about 15 guys and they captured the flag off the City Hall of
Fayetteville and brought it back down to us. And the 3-star general of the 18th airborne corps was
livid. And so then, we had a formation and whenever it was, the judges…what is it? The umpires
around them keep things safe so they don’t do something stupid. But also, they—different
tactics. And so, at that time, our units were the 1st and 2nd armored division. This was armor
against armor. So, it is a little bit different but nonetheless they said that we won the second
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round, the second time we were out. So, that means that protocol says the commanding general
of the unit, or his representative, will bring the sword out to the commanding general of the other
unit. So, General Dunn showed up with his staff and somebody showed, up but the 4-star general
didn’t show up, on Fort Bragg. And so, we got that sabre. And of course, you know, General
Dunn had a little party over that. So, that was kind of nice. And he was a very personable
individual. (01:12:28)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had mentioned earlier the guys who went and grew the
beards. The guys who grew the beards?
Veteran: Yeah, they—
Interviewer: What did they…Did they give you information or do you have no idea what
they did?
Veteran: Oh, exactly. We ran those operations in Europe. We’d dress people up and do
something and they’d go do it and then come back and report it and never be seen again. In other
words, they would go somewhere else but they were new there. And so, if we dressed up in some
mood, we had to go to accoutrements to confirm that. So, they came in town and introduced
themselves and got to know people. And they were inspectors maybe of farm land or some
agriculture or something off the wall. And they had enough information on it to be believable.
And so, they just looked like everybody else and they spoke their lingo to a point. It really wasn’t
that important for what they were going to do. So…But they wanted to keep up with current
events. But they had sensitivities that I didn’t know about. You shut an area off, I found out later
when I got in the infantry, we’d shut down an area and bring in 25 helicopters. And you needed a
certain area. Or 10 at a time, whatever. Well anyway, they ended up dropping a pretty big unit in
�33
the area. That unit was…that could be a battalion of 500 or a brigade of 2000. And they dropped
a brigade in there. (01:14:10)
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so they were doing kind of advanced scouting for you,
essentially?
Veteran: That’s—oh, well…advanced infiltration of the local community for intelligence
purposes.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So now…So, you have the field exercises periodically. Now,
what played out when the Cuban Missile Crisis happened? How did that effect things for
your base or your unit?
Veteran: Right. What we did is we went on alert and I stayed in the—I stayed at Fort Hood. And
we briefed. We had briefings in the Pentagon. Not—we weren’t involved but they called up all
of our lieutenants and all of us had to become good at something quickly. And then, we’d get
almost the same kind of information. But we were doing: we’d interpret the photo interpretations
of all the vessels on the high seas that were coming from Russia. And then we’d run our U-2
pilots over Cuba more than once a day. And we’d compare what is going—see what is going on.
Very time sensitive. And they would be marked up quickly. And then that transposed to our
organization. So, I had general officers coming to Fort Hood and other general officers going to
the Pentagon. So, east went there and west came to us. And so, we briefed a forward divisions,
commanding generals, and that kind of stuff. And also, some of the uplying, higher level general
officers. And some of these guys had been in World War 2 and all that kind of stuff and they
could really see between us. So, we didn’t make many mistakes; they would catch them and
make sure they were saying the right kind of things. So, we briefed them all during that time. In
�34
the meantime—I don’t know if America knew this or not, maybe they did, but we stationed both
of our armored divisions in a tactical posture in Texas. We also stationed, and I wasn’t aware—I
didn’t get in the ground on this one—we also had several airwings postured the same way.
That’s just in Texas. And then we had our two airborne divisions in Florida and the
communications between the two. And we knew that President Kennedy was getting some
advice and we were hoping that we weren’t going to go to war but we knew what we needed to
do and so we’d do it. (01:16:56)
Veteran: We had also—I didn’t know that but I learned later—that a lot of Cubans had been
coming here and they had been trained to do things. And the fighter pilots in country, that were
friendly to keeping it a free country, were also available to come to the war…the beach? Or
whatever you want to call that whole Battle of Pigs. Whatever it is called. Area. So that was all
set up and when you—when they attacked and the President cancelled our operation so we stood
down. We were in—I was still physically in Fort Hood. And the folks in Florida stood down.
And so, the Cubans that went in got wiped out pretty much. They had no air cover because we
cancelled all of that. Because we could have really put them in a back brace. And so, I don’t
know what that saved. Did that save World War 3? I am not sure. But I do know that the Soviet
ships turned around and went back. We had such a fine relationship with Cuba. That was not a
problem. But when the Russians got in there, they turned it into a problem for us. So, that’s
something we were very sensitive about, even today. So… (01:18:27)
Interviewer: Alright. But basically, when a lot of this was going down, your unit was
involved in a lot of the intelligence work and preparations for what the military response
would be if we had one.
�35
Veteran: And we kept organized what the fleets were doing and what they were doing on the
ground. Because they had a missile capability that could have reached the United States. At least,
that’s what we were told. And so we’d watch. And what they would do: they moved the stuff that
could hit us out and then they put them in their shelters. So, we watched them every day while
they are doing all that stuff. So, they kept structurally changing it. Threat level now is X; it is
now going back to Y. And so—and the Pentagon and us, we did the same thing. And basically,
all of our sea, air, and ground forces were all informed, because we had a lot of stuff at sea at the
same time, as you know. But during that time…During that time, I put in a request—because I
was being coached by Lieutenant Colonel Rose and also his applying to put in a request to
become a regular Army officer. So, I wouldn’t be reserve, I’d be rifted. And so, I went up for
interviews and I lived at 209 Dunn Street in Killeen, Texas. And so, when I—I was briefed by
the 1-star, whatever he had to say, and then I had audience with Lieutenant General Dunn. And
he laughed. He said, “You live on my street.” He was laughing at me and all that stuff.
(01:20:07)
Veteran: And when he had one of his parties—he’d have a party every year—he made it a
point…He and his wife—his was wife was miss straightforward. She was wearing—here is the
commanding general of 3rd Corps Armored biggest unit in town, and he’s running around and his
wife is wearing a cotton dress that has got flowers on it. Very down to earth. And he hunted me
down, he embarrassed everyone around me. He said, “I want to meet you because you are one of
my commanders.” He went down…He didn’t care who you were. You commanded a chicken
food, he went down to see the chicken food commander. So, he was very personable. Very
personable. (01:20:47)
�36
Veteran: So, I don’t know what he did but it was strong enough to get me into orders to move in
November, 1963 from Fort Hood to Fort Benning, Georgia and to get my infantry training.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, had you made that move when Kennedy was assassinated? Or
did that come while you were still in Texas?
Veteran: I was on the road. On the 23rd of November, 1963 I drove just south of Dallas, Texas. I
forget what highway I was on? I think it was 10 and I was heading east. I pulled into a gas
station. And this is terrible. See? Burned in my mind. I pulled into a gas station to tank up. I was
driving a Volkswagen bus with my family: wife and 3 children. And somebody said, “Somebody
shot and killed the president,” or “Somebody shot the president.” I said, “Well, it couldn’t
happen to a nicer guy.” I said, “That’s a stupid thing for somebody to say. Why would they want
to say a nasty thing about our president? He’s our leader, he’s commander in chief.” And I get in
the car. I was furious. And I drove to the motel and it was on there. I just—my heart just went
ahh. So, when I arrived in Fort Hood, we lived—we were some place, a hotel or whatever—
everything was shut down for a number of days as you know. (01:22:15)
Interviewer: And you arrived at Fort Benning?
Veteran: Yeah, I drove right to Columbus and I got in some place. The Army put me in some
kind of a hotel situation until I found a place I could rent downtown. And but—everything shut
down. Everything was shut down. And so, we went through that whole process of grieving. My
wife is German. She didn’t understand a lot of that but she knew that that was problematic. She
just didn’t understand it. My kids? They were too young to understand anything. So, that was
how dare them? How dare anybody do that? And that turned out to be—so, I did some research
on that sometime later and…But that? I don’t know how you would prevent that kind of thing.
�37
And that’s what I am concerned about: what we’ve got now. We’ve got to keep our president, as
we did him, in prayer every day.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, eventually you get into Fort Benning and you can start picking
up what you are supposed to be doing. So, what is the assignment there?
Veteran: Okay, I was as a—I was a first lieutenant because I had enough time and grade to make
first lieutenant. And I moved into the first battalion airborne, 188th infantry regiment, winged
attack. And the 11th air assault division, which was a training division. It was training in air
mobile concepts. The generals of the World War 2 were trying to figure out how can we move
people and keep them organized and still have the ability and flexibility to move them quickly?
There’s no—historically speaking—there is no successful airborne operation of any size. Small
units but not—they always get scattered all over the place. That is why they had these clickers in
Normandy. (01:24:09)
Veteran: So, they wanted to eliminate that problem. So, what they did? They formed this—I
think the 11th Airborne Division was called back on active duty, because they had come out of
Europe, and made an air assault. And…But everybody—the generals—were all airborne
operators. They knew the things there. But they experimented with helicopters. And then they
kept getting them smaller and smaller where we could fly everybody in helicopters and we could
either jump out of them on the ground, jump out of them in parachutes, or in some of them, you
could hover and you’d come down in a ladder. All kinds of ways of doing it. And so, I got into
there and I was the executive officer for B Company, 1st Battalion, 188th Infantry Regiment. And
that was—they were physically in Harmony Church within the Fort Benning complex. So, I
started there and then I went through…The orientation I had to go through officer infantry school
first. Now, I had been there as an enlisted man, you know, when I was in Missouri at Fort
�38
Leonard Wood. So, this is essentially the same thing, only it had some different kinds of twists
and changes. And they—I remember one situation I thought I blew. You had to make decisions
on stuff, on crossing areas that were what they called danger areas. They had a little water there
so if you made the wrong decision, you would fall in the water. And so, they changed it around
real quick, moved us around when we were in that. And if you made the wrong decision, they
would say well, you just got shot in the head Harry, or lieutenant, or whatever they called us.
You’re in charge now. And I had one that I couldn’t figure out what to do. I usually had a team
concept and but I—get it done. (01:26:12)
Veteran: And so, the poor guy fell in the water. So, my briefing was when I got with the sergeant
and whoever it was that was evaluating what I was doing. I just raked him over the coals. I raked
him over the coals. I was not prepared and I don’t care to admit that. I think that is important to
know. This is new. I have been…I have had assignments before that are a lot more dangerous
than this. And if they fell in the water, they were dead. They were killed or hurt or something.
And so, I just smoked him. Maybe I got a point on that because I got through that course. And I
went back to the company and I found out all the officers were either West Point or officer
candidate. You know, cum laude. And here’s this triple bang who is a direct commission
mustang and I don’t know anything and I still don’t have a college education. And I am in B
company. Well, the B company commander there was very straight and he was rigid straight.
Hard to do anything with. But he was consistent on certain things you need to do. so, I focused
on those. As the administrator, I tried to take a lot of the administrator harassment off his back.
He had a drunk that would make PFC and get busted the next month because he went out and got
drunk. So, I fixed that problem. Nobody talked to anybody where they lived. Why do you do this
or what’s going on? They didn’t get into that. And what do you have to offer? This guy was a
�39
baker. And he used to get up at 2 in the morning and he would bake his stuff that the military
police in the cantonment area would drive out to test it for us before we got there at 6:30 after
our 5 mile run. And so we made—military police were our friends in B company mess hall. So,
what we did to fix him: we’d pay him. Every pay day, he’d show up. We’d take all his money
away. We would drive him downtown to a nice hotel. We would pay his bill and his food and his
alcohol and leave. And Monday morning, we’d pick him up again, bring him out, wash him up,
put him back in the dining facility and he was there until the next pay day. (01:28:37)
Veteran: And he made corporal. And it stuck. But they didn’t know how to communicate with
him. I thought that was far better than the way—the straight way to handle them is just to drag
him out of the service. But he made friends. And later on, I will tell you what happened in
combat because of what he did.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you start working and using helicopters and things? Is this
part of what you’re going to be doing once you’re with a unit? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, even though I was executive officer, I had to jump off a 44-foot tower, I had to
jump out of a helicopter hovering 120-feet off the ground, 90-feet off the ground.
Interviewer: If you’re jumping off from 120-feet up, do you climb down something or just
free fall?
Veteran: No, you’re on two—for safety purposes—you’re on two ropes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And it’s a certain kind of a new—or whatever it is—it’s a mixed material. I can’t
remember what it is but it was very strong. It could hold 3000 pounds, each one. So, we’d double
�40
hook them into the helicopter. We had 4 guys or 8, depending on what’s going on. And you got 4
out on the…On the…
Interviewer: On the runners? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah. On the runners there or whatever. Yeah. But anyway, so at that time, you go.
And you go together because otherwise the helicopter would go crazy. And then if there is more
on there, then you hook—you hook them up. But anyway, the idea was once you jump—maybe
it was just 4 when we did this. You had one guy that was a crew chief and what he would do,
we’d be hooked in there with these things that you use in mountain climbing and all that stuff.
He unhooked that and that would come down to us. (01:30:36)
Veteran: So, we would have to collect the rope and take off. If we were in a combat situation,
that was important because we didn’t want the enemy to get ahold of that stuff because it was
still good and we could use it for any numbers. We could put…trip people coming after us or
something else. Or get rid of it. So, I had to go through that. And then later on, we had these
helicopters; the chinooks had rotors at the front and the back. And we would hover and you’d
come down on a ladder that’s maybe 60-feet or so off the deck. And that means you—we
could—if we were in a area that was had a lot of foliage, you could get in the foliage that way.
You could get through and then you would drop the ladder because it would hook up the air—the
helicopter and mess it up. I was a safety officer on some training. Our cav unit—we had a—9th
cav was in there and they were fighters. They were like infantry that had all kinds of stuff that
they could do. And they had their helicopters were part of the program, part of their organization.
So, we—I trained with them and helped them do well. And that was a real responsibility and a
delight to do. We got to known the folks in Columbus. They got to live with us and when we get
back from some of our exercises—we went to the Carolinas to do that too—and that’s where my
�41
connection from my 3rd corps days paid off because the Marines showed up right away and they
said, “Okay, how can I help you?” So, they tried to help us. And we didn’t win any battles. I’ll
tell you that. We didn’t win anything because that’s when the 5th armored came in—the 5th
mechanized came in—and we couldn’t defeat them. (01:32:37)
Veteran: But the intelligence was helpful for us because at least we had an idea of what we were
against. And what we did…we could hide. And we could be in some place they couldn’t find us.
And can you imagine a large infantry unit with helicopters, trying to hide? And what we would
do is we would get our chemical unit out there and they’d build a... this ground fog. And you
couldn’t find us. And it would just sit there; it wouldn’t go anywhere. Just sit there. And we just
wouldn’t move, wouldn’t communicate. You know, radio silence. And we did to some level but
we didn’t get—we didn’t pull any stunts. We couldn’t do any funny things. When we got—
sometimes we would get captured. And so, we would be very careful with…Because they—
some of them got rough with us. They shouldn’t—we are American soldiers. So, I got after them
on that too. And didn’t make any friends but I didn’t get hurt and that was good. But we couldn’t
have that. And you know, that was it. Those were straightforward, strictly infantry stuff. And I
did everything: I reported the wounded in action and all that stuff. I got that training while I was
out in the Carolinas because we had to go through that process of what do you do? And so, that
was excellent. So then, our commanders changed. The West Pointer left and another guy came in
and he was OCS, officer candidate school officer, but he had been in Vietnam. (01:34:20)
Veteran: Very successful. Name was Livingston. And he trained us combat action drills. So,
when something would happen, it was scenario number 1 alpha or something, whatever, we got
that, we could get it down like that. So, it depends on if we were ambushed, we would do
something. If it were some kind of a passing thing and we were overpowered, we would do
�42
something else, call in help. If it was a long-range reconnaissance of finding something and
hiding out and being still and don’t let anyone run over us but report what they are doing. That
kind of thing. So, we went through all of that and I had to do that too, right with them. I walked
in the swamps in Fort Stewart with the mortar platoon. And I wasn’t good at it because I couldn’t
carry the big stuff but I carried whatever I could. And sometimes I would be with my own—the
mortar platoon, you have your infantry platoons up here moving forward in front of you.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, I think we were talking about you have joined your battalion
now with what is now the 11th Air Assault Division—
Veteran: The Air Assault Division.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. And you were kind of talking about some of the different things
that you had done with them and are there other pieces of that story at your first stage as
you’re first kind of learning the ropes and working with these guys? (01:36:18)
Veteran: Yeah, learning how to become an infantry officer. When I was in the Army working in
the intelligence service, sometimes I wore civilian clothes. I mostly wore a uniform but then
again, it was more casual. In some cases, we had some serious things where people got hurt.
Some of them disappeared, that kind of thing. Of course, I don’t have a whole lot of detail on it
anyway. But here it is a regiment and they have rules and regulations that we complied with and
here whatever I was working on, those didn’t apply. You just did your job. So, here I am in the
infantry and so I got in and there was 180 men in that bravo company at that time. And that’s
average. And so, I had a really tough, sharp first sergeant. And I didn’t know what to do with
anything. And but I knew how to where a uniform. So, I got that part right. So, what the noncommissioned officers did by and by: they trained me how to become a good, strong leader as an
�43
infantry officer. And I needed to have the technical stuff done well. So, that means I learned how
to fire all the—everything. All the weapons. I didn’t have—I did, I fired the mortar. Boom! You
know, the tube. But all the weapons I could take them apart, even in the dark. Every hand gun
and rifle and stuff like that. Machine gun. (01:38:02)
Veteran: And so, they taught me that and they taught me tactics and how to communicate those
kinds of things. They also in Harmony Church, right next to the Ranger department. The Ranger
department trains everybody in the United States Army, that wants to and qualifies, the Ranger
techniques of warfare. That’s the officer and enlisted personnel. So, these guys were all Ranger
airborne, jungle experts and had been in airborne units a long time. Some of them had been in
airborne units a long time although we were not airborne. The unit was airborne but we were not
at the time commissioned as that function. And but anyway, just like I mentioned to you before
about how my shiny boots getting attention? Well, when we had our annual—you had field
inspections and they had maintenance inspections annually. And a company commander could
rise well with superb reports, so I knew how to work those. And so, I got with the supply people
and my supply sergeant hoarded all the brand-new stuff. Look how wonderful my supply room
looks? And he was a senior, non-commissioned officer and I respected him but I said, “It’s the
worst one I have ever seen.” And so, within a week, he had all the clean blankets that had been
repaired and all the new stuff they had on the shelves was with the troops as it should be. If
something breaks, you replace it. Okay, so I got that squared away and all his books reported
all—everything I just said. (01:40:05)
Veteran: We did that up front, properly. Then, took on the armory. The armory is a place where
you can lose your can in an inspection. And so, what we did there is everybody had to do what I
did. You clean your weapon, you make it right, turn it in at the armory, armorer and I had two
�44
armorers in there and they were really sharp corporals. And they did the best job they could and I
gave them breaks and extra plaudits and, you know, whatever. Good benefits at the mess hall.
And so, they did an excellent job in keeping us squared away. And then, one of the things I
found out about security: you could break into that place without a whole lot of effort. So, I put
double breaks. I also doubled the walls. The walls were built with an outside but I built an
internal inside. So, you break the outside wall off, it’s going to take a month of Sundays to get
further beyond that point. So, the walls themselves became fortresses and the windows and
doors, you would need unsettling force to get through to the armory. So, we got that done. And I
remember one time we had a field inspection or maintenance…I am sorry: a maintenance
inspection coming up and so I don’t know who was thinking this through but this was a brigade
sized unit. We were a brigade, so 3 battalions, so we were going to go out and do something and
another battalion was going to go out and so forth, rotating around, and so each one had their
time. Our time landed when we had this maintenance, annual maintenance, inspection coming.
The other battalions didn’t have that problem but nobody could change that. Of course, I was not
happy with that. So, what we did—the sergeant’s—when I came to my sergeant, E-6s—they
were all squad leaders. They had 10 men that worked for them and they did things right and they
were sharp. And so, a couple of them, about 3 or 4 of them, got ahold of me and said—so, we sat
down and had coffee with nobody around us. He says, “We are going to take you down to the
Ranger school department. And they have equipment and they also have the instructors and all
that fun stuff. And what we are going to do is we are going to get a table of organizational and
equipment issued of all our weapons.” (01:42:44)
Veteran: “Okay.” “Now, what we need you to do, Mr. XO, executive officer, we want you to
appoint, and we will give you the names, 6 men to be on vacation out of town during these days
�45
that we are out in the field. And when we come back. Actually when—mostly when we come
back so they are out of the field to start with and they are still in this area in our compound.”
Alright. So, we went out to our exercise with those weapons and they worked fine. And so then
when we came back, when the guys came back into the cantonment area, these 6 guys were there
and they each collected by serial number every one of those weapons. Machine guns, mortars,
you name it; whatever we had. And drove them down to the Ranger department and they spent 6
days cleaning them. The inspectors came by and one of my corporals was there for the inspection
to salute and open the place up. And they went through and they couldn’t get dust off anything
because he spent the time that was climatized—to climatize the facility for that event. (01:44:06)
Veteran: And we passed. They thought it was amazing. Everybody else was all messed up. There
was a little bit of goo here and this is stuck here. This didn’t work over there and all that stuff.
So, they couldn’t—they never did—I don’t think they found out how we did that. They probably
thought we were cheating. Yeah right. So anyway, that was the first lesson I got from them. And
so that was very helpful. As far as when the annual—part of that—I guess they went to the
supply room and gave him high marks. Oh man, this is the way all supply rooms should look. It
serves the company and the personnel and yet its up to date, it is current, its clean, its orderly, all
the books are—and your supply sergeant is sharp looking. Puerto Rican. He was great but he was
a hoarder so we had to watch that. Then also during the inspection, inspector general’s annual
inspection, where they went through the barracks and all that stuff? We had two guys that had
emergency leave and they had to leave for two days with one of my deuce and a halfs because
they had no transportation. In that deuce and a half was all of our paraphernalia, our junk, and
whatever else that we shouldn’t have. And that—they drove—I don’t know where they went. I
had no idea. So, we got through there and then everything was fine, inspections were laid out
�46
fine, floors were fine. There was no extra stuff because usually you would have a little something
extra and it doesn’t fit in your locker, you just lay it against the wall. So, all of that was gone,
including the headquarters where I was. So, that worked out. And so, we did that kind of stuff.
And the other thing we did for morale, which the other companies never thought about, well we
used to go on 15-mile marches, forced march, and they’d have pretty much their combat gear
with them. That gets heavy after a while. And I had a Volkswagen bus I told you about I came
back with from Germany. So, what I used to do: I’d go to B company and I’d get these—I’d get
the—I’d get these coffee urns with 100 cups of coffee in it, or whatever it had, and then I had all
these little…I had these bakery items that our baker made that morning. I had lots of them.
(01:46:28)
Veteran: So, what we would do is we would go out there and I’d get ahead of the—they are
coming down the road like this so I would get ahead of them, I’d stop, and as the troops would
walk by, we’d hand them a coffee and a pastry and then a coffee and a pastry, coffee…And then
when they got past us, we’d go in front of the line and pick all of that trash up and they’d leave
and then I had a truck behind them go up to the next formation and do the same thing until we
got the company done. All hundred and whatever that was out there. So, that was really—that
was a morale builder. So, the battalion said, “Boy, that’s nice. We got to—” So, we had to
expand that to help the battalion do that too. So, we did that. So, that was fun. And of course, we
made friends with the military police because they had gotten very close to us because they
would sample our stuff around after midnight. And so, they helped us out when things got kind
of stuffed. One of the problems I had—I’m a Talmadge—and one of the problems—Talmadges
are fine in general but you had little groups that are in the south, little groups in the north, little
groups in the west. And sometimes those little groups of Talmadges get in trouble. Or they cause
�47
trouble. And one of the things that I had to fight was the racial business. The difference in
Georgia between a black man and a white man, or such. Now when we went on one of our
maneuvers, we took everybody, told them we would have this inspection waiting for us. But we
went out and had to have our formations and understand a quick response to different scenarios
that we’d be exposed to and hit hard and be evaluated on it and then maybe do it again and again
until we get it down, then wait a while—a month or two—and do it again and see what we
remember. (01:48:27)
Veteran: One of these times we were getting ready. And we were going to be gone—this was one
of those Carolina things—we were going to go for maybe a month. And so, one of my NCOs has
his vehicle and I noticed his headlight was out. And so, I said, “Okay, I want two of you guys,”
because they are black guys, “I want two in case I needed a witness.” And I didn’t know I
needed a witness. Drove downtown. Got a phone call; Sergeant Jones. “Lieutenant, I am in jail.
Come get me.” “Okay Jones, I am on the way.” So, I went down there and sure enough, Jones
and his buddy were in jail because Jones’ car’s light was burned out. So, I talked to the desk
sergeant. I said, “Sergeant, I am Lieutenant Talmadge. I am executive officer of rifle company
and these two men work for me. I gave them a direct order to come down and get that car fixed.”
He said, “You’re darn tootin’, lieutenant, and we got them. And what do you want?” I said, “I
want them out now.” I says, “You can’t have them.” I said, “May I have your phone please?
Here, just bring your phone over here. Put it right here because I am going to call my Uncle
Herman. Uncle Herman is the governor of Georgia. He’s also a brigadier general in the Georgia
National Guard and he’s my uncle. I am his favorite nephew. Give me this phone.” He said, “Just
a minute, please.” Chief of police came out and said, “Sir, when would you like them out?” So, I
walked out of the place with those sergeants and I told them, “You guys, you flatheads! What’s
�48
wrong with you? Getting in trouble with those police like that. You should treat them with
respect. Afterall, they are white people.” And we got in the car and drove off laughing. Well, that
should have never happened. (01:50:12)
Interviewer: Of course not.
Veteran: Because those same guys were with me in combat. Because shortly thereafter—shortly
thereafter there was an order that came out to us. We were in the field training locally and we
had to come in from the field because our order—our division was going to turn in their colors
and we were going to be appointed as the 1st Cavalry Air Mobile. And so, Mother Dorcy came
out and accepted the flag and all that stuff and what she said and we hugged her and we thanked
the Lord for her and all that, whatever we did to her, because she is the mother of the 1st cav.
And so, we did that on 1 July, 1965. So then, we had to get ready for our combat assignment. We
didn’t know where we were going. And if they did, I can’t—I don’t know what it was. It was in
Vietnam. That’s all I knew. So then, they selected some folks to be the advanced party. Oh,
advanced party? Hmm. Wonder what they do. I don’t know. Nobody ever trained me in that. So,
what they did: they took all of the executive officers of anything, including a 1 star general. And
they sent the 1 star general and about 2500 of us over there in August of 1965. And we flew out
of Georgia and we landed at San Francisco. I was able to say goodbye to my brother and my
mother who lived there. And then, we continued on to Hawaii, to Guam, and then into Vietnam.
And that’s where the 5th—the 3rd Marines were located there. They were located there and we
stayed there for a couple days. (01:52:22)
Interviewer: That might have been Da Nang?
�49
Veteran: Yes, thank you. I forgot that. So, we were there for—we had no idea what was going
on. We were still in our nice, clean—you know, ironed—jungle fatigues. They weren’t jungle,
they were regular fatigues. Whatever…dungarees or not dungarees but they were the old, old
field—
Interviewer: Were they greens or khakis or—
Veteran: Yeah, they were greens. Khakis and greens. But greens. So, and we had leather boots
and all that stuff. So, we finally flew into An Khê. It was a short strip. It was owned by a rubber
plantation owner and wealthy man. The mansion was still there. You had the airfield that ran in
front of it. And we could—that one C-130 could land on there very nicely without going off the
end of it. And there was about 60 of us in there for the whole time we left Georgia. You either
sat, stood, or laid on the deck to make up the time because it was a very demanding flight.
Nonetheless, our executive officer was a major promoted to lieutenant colonel. He was a very
kindly gentleman but tough. And our commanding officer was a guy by the name of Ken
Martell. He was an aviator, a very accomplished soldier. I don’t know if he was West Point or
not but he was one of the rising officers in this process of air mobility. (01:54:08)
Veteran: So, he just—a sharp career, a lot of neat things. So, he was our commanding officer.
We didn’t get to know him until—because he came on board when we got anointed as the 1st
cav. So, we were in Vietnam for that month of August pretty much by ourself and into the first
part or two weeks of September. And there was a brigade of the 101st airborne that was our
sheltering organization. They provided us security, they fed us, did everything. Helped us set up
a water point so we could go get our little showers and generally trying to teach us how to be
safe. And the reason I say that is because some nights—some nights we’d get a sniper shooting
at us and if for some reason we wouldn’t have had automatic, every other bullet or every 5th one
�50
was marked so you could actually look at it. So, you get down and they taught us how to react to
that. But don’t do any shooting. You don’t shoot anything; they take care of that, because we
might shoot one of them accidentally. So, we did that and that was fine. And then we found out
what our job is. And the 1 star got out and he gave us this rollicking speech that we are going to
stop the communists here. They are trying to come, stepping stones across the Pacific and
eventually get us in our homeland so we are going to stop them right here in this Indochinese
area. Okay fine, general. Great. What are we going to do tomorrow? So, tomorrow we showed
up and they suggested wear a hat to cover our eyes because it was going to be bright out. We are
going to work all day and so we had our green little fatigues on, whatever you want to call those
things and our leather shoes, boots. And so, this big guy, he must have outranked the general or
something…Well anyways, whatever rank he was, he must have been really up there because he
showed up and he is from the corps of engineers. And he’s going to show us what to do today.
And so, he explained the layout of the facility and one large area had to be cleaned and we—
“They should have sent privates but they sent you all so you’re going to have to learn how to
clear the area so you can land 453 helicopters.” Or whatever. (01:56:40)
Veteran: So, we went out there that day and we worked out tails off. He made sure we had water
breaks and he was up there checking our work and make sure we go down there and get it right.
And then we had some Vietnamese go with us. They probably worked with us in the daytime and
were Viet Cong at night. I have a picture: I was standing with my Viet Cong buddy. He had one
of these—I still have my bamboo whatever…machete. But anyway, he worked us like dogs. I
mean, it was a long day. We were all dragging and sweating and then we took off our shirts and
the t-shirts were all wet. So, finally we put our shirts back on, he put his t-shirt on and we all
looked at him—we just about fell over—he was a corporal. And he had all of us driving—he
�51
drove us nuts. And he just—I don’t know where he went. We didn’t see him again but he was
sent probably to get some other group going. But he knew what he was doing. We didn’t know
what he was doing. All of us had calluses. We didn’t have any gloves. So, we did that and we did
that and did that. And they had bulldozers and all kinds of stuff. And where we had our tents
near the airfield. One side of the airfield we had the tents, then you had the airfield, then you had
some more…it had a blank area, then you had the river, the Bong Son River. (01:58:05)
Veteran: So, we had to walk across the airstrip and across this open field to get down to the river.
And so, this big black guy—I assigned everybody a buddy and I said, “You’re not my buddy.
You’re my body guard. So, we are not buddies. None of this chummy-chummy stuff.” He was a
neat guy. I forget where he came from but he was a very personable gentleman. He was a…he
was in the fire team so he was very good with a rifle. Very good with a rifle. So, we were out
there together. So, I walk with him across the field and next to the mansion and while he was
bathing, I had my rifle. I had ammunition and I was ready. So, I’d be looking around my little
sector. And the defense was way down here. I wasn’t going to shoot anybody but the defense
was—they really had to watch the river and watch us. But I watched for him and then when I got
my little bath while he did the same thing. And then we’d come back, walk across that area. So,
we did that for a couple of days. Then about the third or fourth day, all of a sudden, the area was
cordoned off and it was bulldozered with these thrashers in front of it. And every time they hit a
bouncing betty, it would pump up about this high and go off and it would hit an area about 30
meters out. And had one of those things going off with this gentleman and myself, we’d have
been dead. We walked across that time and all of us did. For 2 or 3 days. And they finally
figured out. So, they got them all. They got rid of all that stuff. They just kept doing—and it
would rock the machine and then they’d adjust it and then they’d go continue on. So, we did that
�52
for…well, whatever it took us. And then they finished that up. Then…Oh, I was up at night.
There is always something to do at night. I don’t know what it is, but they had something for us
to do at night. We had movies at night. And even the Viet Cong watched the movies. And then
every once in a while, they would shoot at it. (02:00:27)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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TalmadgeR2152V1
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Talmadge, Roger S.
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2017-09
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 1), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge was born in Glen Ridge, New Jersey on October 16th, 1937. He joined the Navy Reserve on October 23rd, 1954, at the age of 17. Roger completed basic training and boot camp at Wold-Chamberlain Naval Air Station, where he also received training to become a certified electronics technician so that he could work on navigational equipment. During his time in the Navy Reserve, Roger also helped with recruiting. He then joined the Army and became an intelligence officer. He completed 3 months of basic training for the Army at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri. Roger then completed an additional 3 months of intelligence training in 1957 at Fort Holabird. He became an order of battle specialist. Roger was transferred to Germany in June 1957. He was first assigned to the 7th United States Army with the 525th MI battalion for a short time and then joined the 207th MI detachment. Roger did a lot of crypto work while in the intelligence service in Germany. He also worked in the debriefing interrogation section. He received a direct commission in 1962 and worked as a deputy executive officer. Roger then came to Fort Hood, Texas, to the 203rd MI detachment as a second lieutenant of the military intelligence. He moved to Fort Benning, Georgia, in November of 1963 to receive infantry training. He became a first lieutenant and was the executive officer for B company, 1st battalion, 188th infantry regiment. Roger went to Vietnam in 1965.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/755e3c99418fc989c91261b9dfe200ae.mp4
93fff3d2d38ec3203b4b52518769c509
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80a559f62bf7447c9150f6c45fe9996f.pdf
bc0ab18a8590f0e16763a9ecddeabb95
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 2:02:50
Interviewer: Alright. Now, we had gotten in your story to your beginning of time in
Vietnam. But I guess there was one more story from Fort Benning that you wanted to plug
in here before we forget it.
Veteran: Yes. When I was executive officer of B Company, 1st Battalion Airborne 188th Infantry
Battalion, Winged Attack, we were in Harmony Church, that’s in the Fort Benning complex, and
we received an assignment. Bravo company received an assignment that eventually I became the
officer in charge and I knew nothing about what I was supposed to do. So anyway, the
assignment was this: there was a sister battalion in our—we were the first brigade-sized in the
11th air assault and we had 3 battalions. And I think the 187th or something—another battalion—
was commanded by a guy by the name of Lieutenant Colonel John Hennessey. And keep that in
mind because you are going to hear that name again. He retired as a 4-star general. And this is
how we became intimate friends. I knew exactly nothing what to do but the assignment was this:
he was going to have a battalion parachute jump into a designated area. This was a training jump
and what they were going to do is parachute into that area and then proceed off their drop zone
into their maneuver. And what we were supposed to do is assist them where they need assistance
�2
but mainly pick up their parachutes and just pile them up somehow and that’ll be fine. And you’d
have a day—a certain amount of hours. You’d get there early on and you’d get orientated. And
so, we get together with some of his people and they want to give us some high points on what to
look for. (00:02:14)
Veteran: We were a leg unit. Or if not that, non-parachutists. There were some parachutists in it
that understood but still, we were going to get the orientation. The orientation was this: come out
of the air and some will land on the ground and maybe some of them will have a rough landing
and they might need a little bit of help getting up and getting started so they can get out of their
parachute and then proceed with their unit forward. Others might land in a ditch and you have to
sort of help them out of that. But most dangerous for them would be if they landed in some of the
ponds that are out there because the chute tends to deploy again and it’ll begin to just come apart
and land all over the individual and pull them under water and he’ll drown. So, we need help
with those. But in any event, the idea is to get them all—help them out, no matter whatever is
necessary within the environment that they land in. And then, allow them to go ahead forward
and then you clean up. And then we have vehicles coming out; we will pick up our parachutes
and so forth. So, alright. So, we went out to the field and they pointed out certain areas there:
there’s a waterhole there that you need—okay. And this is over here and this is sort of a gulley
kind of a thing with the tree stumps in there so that’s a hazard. Alright, so then he left. And the
vehicles were out of sight because they didn’t want anybody to parachute into them. Alright, so
what I did is I talked to my NCOs, I said, “How would you organize this?” and my—some of my
very senior NCOs, E-6s or above, would say, “Okay, we’ve had this exercise before when we
were in the airborne so what you do with that hole over there: you put extra people there. Don’t
put two people, you’ll put 6 people there. Now over here, this area where maybe 20 or 30 people
�3
will drop into or more, you might only need 3 or 4. And so we are spread out and then they will
form but don’t let them crash land on you. Just get out of their way.” And what you said—and
what they didn’t tell us but our guys were telling us that had been in airborne, “What you do is
you then start—they’ll start—they’ll take the parachute and they will start making a figure eight
with each other. So, you go out there and you do that and get the dry parachutes in one place and
if there is anything wet, don’t mix them in.” (00:04:49)
Veteran: “You just pile them together. Don’t go setting them in because they have to be hung
and we showed you where the towers are. Well, there’s towers just for parachutes to dry. And
they’ll clean them up and check them up and see if they’re torn and all that stuff. So, they’ll be
inspected particularly. And or if they get in that gulley and get something ripped or just—that’ll
be separate too.” “Gotcha.” They didn’t tell us what would happen. So, they came over and the
first stick came out and they came in and they land beautifully, just like you see in the movies.
And the second stick comes in and one or two will land in the pond and everything else was
beautiful. Then the last stick comes in and they’re gone; that’s the end of the flight. And they
went and landed in that hole and another one or two landed in the pond. So, we go about our
business. And before the trucks show up, we get all the dry ones—we had so many in each pile.
And then the wet ones were all just piled up here and the only ones that got maybe shredded a
little bit were over here. What they didn’t tell us about—and of course my intelligence
background, I worked in signal intelligence operations where we would use that for gathering
information but we also used it for just for regular communication. There’s such a thing as a
classified document: it is called a signal operating instructions, SOIs. So, those were coming
down from the sky. They just—it was snowing. It was snowing SOIs and it was snowing wallets
that had come undone. (00:06:44)
�4
Veteran: And all kinds of credit cards coming down. And they were just everywhere, even in the
pond. So, we saved every one of those. All of them. And I said, “Now, the SOIs or anything that
has any signal stuff on it, you give to me.” So, they very carefully—all the non-commissioned
officers and the privates and whoever else, because our whole 180 of us were all out there except
the commander, he was having tea with the general or somebody. I don’t know what he was
doing but he was busy. So, they were wonderful. And everybody I made double check and if
somebody had SOIs, somebody would be with them and give them all to me and I had a duffle
bag and I filled up my duffle bag full of SOIs. And then I had another duffle bag of all this other
junk. And it was, like I say, pictures of girls and family and whatever monies they had. Don’t
know where that came from. And wallets with their ID cards and all that stuff in there. So, we
got all of that. So, they maneuvered and went in the field with Lieutenant Colonel Hennessey.
And so, he was out in the field and then—so, I took all of that stuff with me and then I went out
in the field. (00:08:09)
Veteran: And our units were out there maneuvering, doing stuff too. They got there by air and
we got there by air assault but we came in with the helicopters or something else or maybe by
trucks but we got there differently than they did. Well, after they got good and settled, I got with
one of my men and we went over and we hunted down where the…I think it was 187th
battalion—infantry battalion—where they were located. And so, went to the tent to see the
commanding officer and I was a first lieutenant and the guy with me was a corporal or
something. And so, we walked in with these big bags and the sergeant there said, “Okay, how
can I help you?” And I said, “I came to see the colonel. I got to see the colonel; it’s a pressing
matter.” He said, “Well, he is busy.” “Tell him I got highly classified documents that only he can
receive. Does he want them or do I take them to the G-2 for the division?” And the colonel came
�5
out and says, “I’ll see you now.” So, I took in these bags and I opened them up and I said,
“These are your SOIs. I worked in the intelligence service for a couple years and I know that you
didn’t want to have your buttons swing because you have…I mean, my goodness: this would
probably be worth thousands—tens of thousands—or I don’t know, a lot of money to somebody
that is not friendly to the United States of America. And over here, I can imagine the wives and
the, whatever, girlfriends in the neighborhood or whatever, your soldiers are missing their
wallets and they’re probably going to be embarrassed to stand in formation and not have a
wallet. So, here is this stuff and we don’t know what belongs to what. Okay, we—there’s money
in there and maybe you use it for goodwill or something. Don’t know what to do with that, sir.”
So, he said, “Well Lieutenant, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I will not forget this. You
have a good day. Goodbye.” So, I left. Watch out what happens after that. (00:10:18)
Interviewer: Alright. Now we will return from that interruption back to Vietnam. And
you’ve gotten there and you had gone out to Vietnam with sort of the advanced party of
what is now the 1st Cavalry Division Air Mobile and were building the camp at An Khê?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: And you talked about clearing areas and doing different things and
discovering that you had been bathing by a minefield and all those sorts of things. Okay.
And then, at what point now—is there other stuff that happens before the rest of the
division comes in or is that…?
Veteran: There is one—one funny thing; it’s a small thing but it’s funny. There was this
gentleman that was with me, this tall man of color. You didn’t want to cross him so I made sure I
had the biggest guy in my unit with me and he and I could take on anybody: I’ll hold his jacket.
�6
But anyway, so here we are and we looked after each other and he wanted to call me by my first
name. I said, “No, we’re not going to cross that line. Not going to do that.” So, anyway…But I
know a couple times at night, we’d be up to watch the movie but next day we knew that we were
going to really pay for it because we’d have to get up around O dark thirty and get out there and
whack weeds together. But he’s real good at it and I was…like I said, I had my Viet Cong buddy
that helped me. So, we were going to mess then at night and I’d say—whatever his name was,
we will call him Jones— “You know Jones, the lieutenant would really do well if he had a
peanut butter sandwich.” And the mess sergeant would say, “Well, we are closed.” “You know
Jones, you didn’t hear me, did you? The lieutenant would really do well if he had a peanut butter
sandwich.” And the mess sergeant would say, “Well, we are closed.” So, Jones went over to the
mess sergeant and says, “If you want your brains rearranged, refuse him again.” “What did you
say, Lieutenant?” “The lieutenant would really like to have a peanut butter sandwich.” So, the
sergeant said, “Wheat or rye?” (00:12:40)
Veteran: So, then they showed up. Now, our folks showed up and they came off the USS Jaguar.
Oh, what a horrible time they had. I think the food was pretty good but they had some rough seas
and sometimes they’d get sick and they’d get bored and they had a lot of training. They didn’t
waste their time. They were refreshed all the survival skills and that kind of stuff. They could
have tested the weapons out too and fired off but I don’t think they did that. But they did
everything else that was important to make a soldier very strong in any environment to improve
what they are going to get into. So, they arrived and we received them and then for the first time,
we moved out…We moved away and across the river to the area that we had cleared off and we
set up—so, when we had the 1st battalion area, the…What was it? The…It slipped my mind.
Interviewer: Of your unit? Or someone else’s?
�7
Veteran: Ours. Our unit.
Interviewer: 8th! 8th Cavalry.
Veteran: Yeah, yeah. My mind is messed up. 1st battalion, 8th Cav for our 1st Cav Division so 1st
Cav battalion set up their area and there is headquarters A, B, C, and D. And so, we set up camp
and while we were there, we had already gotten some training too on you got to watch out for
certain kinds of snakes. And the coral snakes—if you get bitten, they’re two step. You get bit and
two steps later, you’re dead. But also, snakes will come in pairs. I didn’t know that. And so, we
were whacking away, getting things reasonably level so we could get our little pup tents in and I
came across one coral snake and whacked that one. (00:14:39)
Veteran: And so, the guys around me are with me and they got the second one. So, we were
pretty certain that that was good and we kept being very careful about that. And I am grateful to
say that nobody got a bite. But we did get all the men down and we got ourselves down. And
everybody in the companies were in pup tents. Two men to a pup tent. And we took care after
each other. We set up one of our GP medium tents, general purpose tents, and each company had
a dining facility so we’d go through that, rain or shine, we’d go through there and eat out of our
little tin plates. And then, the division started getting some equipment where we could put some
of these general purpose medium tents and fit a whole platoon of 30 men in one. And then you
had bunks, so that means you didn’t have your own shelter above you but you were off the
ground. You weren’t on the nasty old ground where whatever could—a centipede could crawl in
your ear or something like that. And they had that and these little inch worms would get in your
ears too. Yeah, that was kind of fun. But anyway, so that aligned them. My company commander
had a different idea. Everyone in our rifle company was a non-commissioned officer before they
became an officer. So, what we did: the men got the GP medium tents and the officers slept in
�8
the two man tents. And so, we got that squared away and then we took one of those and made an
orderly room for administration and operations and whatever else. (00:16:27)
Veteran: And then finally, we got another sizeable tent and we put all the lieutenants in that one.
But the company commander and me, we still had our pup tent. We were in the pup tent
business. So, the men got together and they got a truck and they drove to Pleiku, which was…I
mean, it was almost a day’s drive. And they got some mahogany and they came back and a
couple of these guys, we had used them in B company anyway, to build the best mess hall in that
part of the world: Fort Benning Harmony Church. So, they built us a house. We had a house off
the ground. And we had that. We also had a cot and we had electricity. And so, I would get up in
the morning and I was the commander’s servant. So, I took care of him and so nobody else
would brown those and none of there business. So, I took care of him. And that was my job: to
take care of him. And so, he was just Mr. Wonderful with the troops. And he was embarrassed
that I was cooking for him. But anyway, you can’t do much to kill C-rations. Anyway, so that’s
what he had. When he was in the field, he cooked his own stuff but when he was there, I cooked
something right there for him. And then he’d go to the mess hall and have the big meal. So, that
was kind of neat: a mahogany house. Amazing. And we have pictures of that and nobody else—
none of the other commanders got anything. They got a GP medium portable whatever.
(00:18:10)
Veteran: Even the battalion commander. Our two guys helped build an officer’s club. And some
once—some years after I left, the termites ate the whole thing so that was kind of…They were
kind of working on it when I left in August of ’66. Okay, so we got settled in and got our routine
around and got our security in. We performed some of the security around the division so we had
a sector that we had and other battalions had part of it and so forth. Just line troops would take
�9
care of that because they knew how to spot. They’d patrol the front of the area and such like that.
We put out the word, although we were told differently by headquarters in Washington D.C., but
we put out the word nobody moves at night. Nobody moves at night. Anybody that moves at
night, they’ll get shot. So, that was good. That kept us safe. And only the people that worked for
us in the daytime would show up at night. And so, that helped us segregate that stuff. And one of
the things that I introduced or had worked on with my NCOs—it wasn’t my idea but the NCO
says, “Why don’t we put a trap out there for these guys?” “Good. Tell me what’s on your mind.”
So, what we did: we took bamboo shoots and we cut them in half and they showed me at night
how you put those down, even in the dark night, and it looked like a highway. Now they said,
“Now, put that aside. Now, when it gets dark tonight, go in front of our machine gun positions
and see what you see.” And sure enough, they had put a trail. Our—the guys that worked with us
in the day had put a trail down to our automatic weapons. So, what we did when, as soon as the
sun set and it was dark, we’d move them all over. (00:20:11)
Veteran: And we put an ambush team at each end on those sites. We captured these rascals. The
fact is, they would go out with just their bayonets. Our guys would go out with a bayonet and
we’d capture—because you didn’t have all that other stuff that could bang around. And these
small units would come up with something to either slit the throats of us who were on duty or…I
don’t know. We didn’t have much trouble with bombs or hand grenades but we could have. So,
we’d capture them or they’d smell us out there and they’d hit the wood. Pretty soon our sector—
we didn’t get any of that anymore. And then later on, they’d shoot. They’d start shooting at us
and so we’d get—same guys would go out and sneak up on them and take the weapon away from
them. And they said—after a while, they just left us alone. They quit shooting at us. I don’t
know. They just…They got tired of it. Also, we put trip wires everywhere. I mean, we would
�10
take them down as the sun was coming up. We’d take them down; we’d move them around. But
then we’d put them out at night. And one of my platoon sergeants, an E-7, went out there and
this is what privates do, private first class maybe—rarely a corporal. But here is this master
sergeant, an E-7, and he…Well, he is…Yeah, an E-7. And he was setting up one of the night
flares and he caught himself on fire. And he burned the front of himself. And so, around where I
was with the company commander, we get a new company commander in and he was a desk
jockey in the brigade in the midst of fair weather. And he didn’t know what to do. (00:22:06)
Veteran: And I went berserk. So, I left. I got in the jeep with the driver and he drove me down to
the MASH. We had a MASH with surgeons in it. And they were having a meeting and here I
was, a first lieutenant, and I had all my junk on and the driver had all of his junk on. And you
know, it’s our weapon, hand grenades, and whatever else, and flares, and we interrupted their
meeting and they were upset with that. So, I referred to them as to their ancestry in a loud voice.
And they didn’t like that either. And I said, “And they need to get out of there now and get an
ambulance up there and get this E-7 out of the place because he has caught himself on fire. We
put the fire out but he’s burned badly.” And they just didn’t like me. I said, “Spell my—get the
name right and get in the jeep and we are leaving now. Otherwise, we are going to take you
down.” And they didn’t like either one of us. So, we did; they got him back. Got him back and
evaced him to Guam. And he tried to tell folks that he was fighting something and that set this
thing off. So, we had to squash that. That was a bold lie. So anyway, that was kind of…Didn’t
know what to do with that. So anyway, just going back just about a month or two later—a month
or two earlier, whe I was in Fort Benning. When we got notified that we were going to be a
combat unit in Vietnam, and this guy showed up and we went out on maneuvers. One of the
maneuvers, we found out how apt and how shiny he was. He was going to train us on reaction
�11
drills. You get ambushed, you attack it and you lose less people than if you sit there and shoot it
out with them. You attack it and you get more enemy kills and fewer friendly kills. (00:24:08)
Veteran: So, he was going to train the troops. And I suspected that he was a problem. I am not
disrespectful to my officers but I like to know who they are so I was trying to identify this
gentleman. I will call him Wendell because that’s what we called him. That’s his first name. So,
I went—Wendell called me in the office and he said, “Alright, Talmadge, what I want you to do:
we are going to go out and I am going to train these guys and I am going to go to area 6D.” I
knew exactly where that was, where the Rangers trained out in the jungly woods of Fort
Benning. Very rough, very overgrown. “And you pick any 6 guys.” I said, “Sir, any 6 guys?” he
said, “Yes, you got that right, lieutenant. You heard me. Just go on; get going.” So, I got these 6
NCOs that helped me out with a lot of other things on inspections and they were Ranger trained.
And we went down to the Ranger department, sat with them and said, “What do you think?”
So…Okay, so they armed them with machine guns and also, I left them. I didn’t tell them I was
going to do this and there are some other things that I coordinated with them. I went over to the
9th cavalry squadron and I asked the lieutenant colonel if I can have one of his platoons. And
they come with helicopters and 30 killer infantry solider assault soldiers and all their ammunition
and all their stuff and whatever else they have. “Oh sure, absolutely.” Then, I went over to the
reconnaissance area of reconnaissance battalion of whatever company and I asked them if I could
have two bubbles. They said, “Absolutely. You can have those observation helicopters. When do
you want them?” I said—I told them I wanted them at O dark thirty on such and such a date and
they’d pick me up at the airfield and I’d appreciate that very much. (00:26:04)
Veteran: So, then I went to the company B baker, the guy that, the drunk who was still there.
And I said, “I need 40 bags of baking powder. In paper bags.” So, he said, “What for?” “I can’t
�12
tell you. It’s a classified mission.” So, he did that; he got those bagged up for me and I took my
bag of those baking powder for cooking and stuff and got in my helicopter and then we took off.
And then we called the military police to stop the copter because somebody had a low—one of
his tires were low and we were too slow. We missed that. So, we couldn’t get to that but we
knew exactly where they were coming. So, the 6 guys showed up and they dropped a tree right in
the middle of the dirt roads where they have to come in and there was other stuff over here to
block them so they couldn’t go forward, they couldn’t even turn around. And they had all these
troops, 150 troops, we were out there. So, and then, my guys hid in the woods. And I was hiding
back here and watching. And so, and the 9th was a radio call. And I was listening to my
commander on his radio so I could say something or he could say something to me. And so, so
once in a while, I’d have a radio check and find out where he was on the highway because I was
watching him and then when he made his turn, I was able to turn my radio off and alert my 6
NCOs we are coming in and he’s going to stop. And then, when he stopped and he disembarked,
I flew over and I bombed him with all of these—I made a couple of runs, about 3 runs, dropping
the paper sacks. All this white stuff was all over—it was everywhere and it got in everywhere
and he was…I could see him: his face was turning red. He was screaming, trying to get ahold of
me. I don’t have my radio on in daylight. I couldn’t hear a thing. I didn’t know what he was
doing and he’s making all this racket down there. I knew he was. I couldn’t hear anything but
you could look at him and tell he was screaming. (00:28:16)
Veteran: So anyway, I turned my radio on and I started making shhhkawwkawww. And so, he
came up on there and I said, “This is Warrior 5, over.” “This is Warrior 6. Stop your bombing
runs. I am trying to train these guys.” “I can’t hear you. Speak up.” “This is 6.” “This is 5, over.”
And I kept that up for a while and finally I heard him and so I pulled out. And so, he started just
�13
training. But everybody was—everybody looked funny with all that white stuff all over. And it’s
amazing he was so squeamish. He never said anything to me. He should have chewed me out,
raked me over the coals. Didn’t do it. Didn’t do it; didn’t touch me at all. So anyway, so they
went into the woods. They began to deploy and so one of the NCOs…There is three of them over
here on one side and three of them over here on the other side. One of them opened up their
machine gun and, all of a sudden, it was just like you see in those soccer games where all the 7
or 8 year-olds—everybody is on the ball. Everybody on the field is on the ball. 22 people are
running after that stupid ball. But a whole bunch of these guys went there. I don’t know what he
did. I have no idea what he said. It wasn’t organized. They should have been in a platoon
formation of some kind and moved as a unit. And they weren’t organized, they just went
everywhere. I should have gone back with my helicopter, with my bubble helicopters. But
anyway, so they went after that and as soon—and then there’s these other people started milling
around, going that way. So, then one of these guys opened up. All of a sudden, its oh, they were
going this way. I could watch them that—I could be up here and watch them for a while.
(00:30:06)
Veteran: And then, the NCOs on the ground were telling me what they were doing too. So,
finally I got rid of the bubbles and but anyway, so they had—they were split and this one opened
up and then they’d go over here and do something and then they’d go to this way over…Had that
fire unit and they were split up all over the place. By the time they got to this open field, and they
came on line and all my NCOs were up there and I was on the ground with them. And at this
point, they got on the firing line. Oh, they…If we had mortars, we could have killed them all. We
didn’t have mortars. But anyway, they were going through mortar runs and doing this. I don’t
know what they were doing. It doesn’t make any sense. But anyway, while they were doing that,
�14
here comes a platoon of the 9th Reconnaissance Squadron and they land with their helicopters
right there and they dismantle the platoon. And with the fighters in there, they are shooting at
them and all that. All of a sudden, they had to get organized and they returned the fire. But by
that time, there was nothing left. And the commander is screaming like a—he was like a turkey.
One of those turkeys that get out there and you could just see all of this stuff going underneath
the chin. I don’t know what happened. Anyway, so then we stopped. And then we regrouped and
those guys got in the birds and flew off and we got in and we finally left. Got in our vehicle. And
I don’t know what kind of a briefing they had after that. But the commander told them because
this guy, Captain Livingston, had been with us for a couple years. And he taught us how to react
to stuff. Well organized to ambushes, to anything. So anyway, we got alerted to go to Vietnam
and we had a short time to quietly do that. And then they—within two hours after, it was
announced who would be in the advanced party. All 4 of my platoon leaders came up to me and
begged me to get this guy Wendell relieved, because he is incompetent. (00:32:22)
Veteran: I said, “I will do my best. But I’ll promise you: it will be taken care of.” So, they got
on—we got on our boarders a couple days later and came to An Khê and you know that story.
They showed up in September. He gets out there with the security thing. The first thing he did
and he gets relieved. So, he wrote efficiency reports on all of us. Now, the battalion commander
and the exec and whatever else went through the operations officer—went through the
organization and relieved a bunch of our…some of our folks as well. My first sergeant stayed, I
stayed. I don’t know. My real good guys stayed. My real sharp, wide-awake—the guys that kept
the weapons clean all the time, even when they came back from our practice stuff that we did,
little encouragements out there and back again. And so then, when he was relieved, Captain Roy
Martin came from the operations officer position to take his place. And he is a non-
�15
commissioned officer. He formally served in…I know he served in Korea. He might have…I
think that’s it. But he also served for many years all over the world in airborne operations and
very thoroughly, thoroughly well-versed, well-respected, known by very senior people across the
Army. (00:34:04)
Veteran: So, he comes into our unit and he starts and that’s where the unit grew closely together.
We removed some folks. Beyond that, we got some folks in that broke our heart. I got a black
lieutenant in, I got a white lieutenant in. And when September, late September, early October, we
deployed for the Ia Drang Valley, took a lot of hits. We had 3 North Vietnamese divisions
fighting our one and our field artillery and everything else we could find. Just drove them back
into Cambodia and when the congressmen got off the helicopters, they wanted to know are we
firing into—outside the limits of Vietnam? South Vietnam? Into Cambodia or anywhere else.
“Oh no, sir, we wouldn’t be doing that.” So many of them had to say from the fire direction
center, “We got them on the run! We got them 20-15 clicks inside the—we got a barrage running
right after them and we are pushing them out.” So, we told the representatives to get on the
helicopters and get out of here. So, they left. Didn’t hear anything about that but that was
terrible. We had to do that otherwise they’d regroup the company; we took some heavy hits. And
one of our battalions was ambushed. I mean, all the leadership was taken out. It was Hal
Moore’sunit. And I can’t tell you what he did but I know what he didn’t do. That battalion was
the only battalion that was moving from Pleiku, going from point A to point B, and they had no
flank security, no forward units’ patrols and nothing in the rears. And he certainly didn’t have
artillery flanking him all the way in, left and right. That unit, when it was decimated, I had to
give up some of my lieutenants and my non-commissioned officers to completely restore that
�16
battalion. And I lost my black officer and later on, I will tell you about the white lieutenant. But I
lost my black officer. I wanted a black officer in my command. (00:36:25)
Veteran: I have a fetish for black people because of Mary Wilson, who raised me as a youngster.
I think I mentioned that earlier on and I loved Mary Wilson. And I didn’t even know she was a
woman of color. I mean today, I don’t care. Anyway, that’s what happened.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Let’s try to organize this stuff a little bit. The full division
comes out. And once, then, you get them organized and established, how long is it before
you actually start to kind of go out into the field for full operations?
Veteran: The Ia Drang Valley was our first operation where the division deployed.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And they went late September and into October, November, we were in the Ia Drang
Valley in constant contact with North Vietnamese. They had 3 divisions, later on I found out,
and we even found their headquarters. Their front headquarters. So, I kept that in mind for later.
And so, we were able to push them. We had some of the people here at this reunion were there
and some of our people who were wounded, some of them—they had—they set up triage for us.
When we brought back these guys, and the ones that were easy to fix, they got that taken care of
and the next ones were the ones that would live probably and then the last ones were…They
were lost. And sure enough, they got some of those saved. (00:38:02)
Veteran: And that was a miracle. But that was our first time and we didn’t take a lot of hits in
Bravo company, or even the 1st of the 8th Cav. We didn’t take a lot of hits at all and so we
brought most of our people back with us. But we had some and they were—we lost a couple.
They were killed in action but most any other—there were just some that were wounded severely
�17
and they are still around today. And so that was kind of a neat blessing. We really didn’t take
much of a—okay, so we came back from that and there was a guy in Bravo company; his name
is Rodriguez. And he was known in the 18th Airborne Corps as a chef. And here he is: an infantry
staff sergeant platoon leader. Very, very—the generals knew him; he was that kind of a cook.
And so, General Johnson was one of them. And so, we came back and we were licking our
wounds and such like that and we had a situation happen and I got a picture of this guy I’ll tell
you about. But anyway—so, Rodriguez cooked food for our battalion and I think we had a bunch
of visitors come in to help themselves because they wanted the fine food that he produces. But
we had a situation where when the guys came back, we weren’t very observant. I had a—this
tall, black gentleman I put in the 1st platoon. And I got an Italian; his name was Spino and he was
my number one man so he did everything. I taught him everything I know. So, when I was busy,
he went out and made the deliveries of food, ammunition, water, anything, into the field. They
asked for something, we’d try to get it. Maybe some sleeping bags or maybe some boots. And
that was one of the things we got into right after the Ia Drang Valley in December: our boots
were falling off us. They rotted right off our feet. (00:40:15)
Veteran: And so, we had to send out and make urgent calls to get not only the uniforms that were
jungle fatigues but also those cloth boots that the water would come in and go out. And—the
jungle boots. And so, those began to come in and, again, the enlisted got theirs’ first and then we
got ours second. And somebody stole all of mine so I didn’t—I was out of uniform for a long
time. So anyway, so that was happening. But one of the things that happened was when they
came in, yes, they cleaned their rifles right away and yes, they did this, that, and they got their
stuff in order and got themselves finally some food after they got all this stuff put away. But one
of the things some of them didn’t do: they didn’t take away their hand grenades. And so,
�18
everybody was tired. I don’t know what we were doing. We were busy trying to get organized
too and one guy laid down in his bunk and blew himself to pieces. Which is what—he was just
resting and two of his grenades—the trigger things were wrapped around his web gear and he
just slept there with it like this and he must have rolled over and one of them dropped and the
other dropped and they both exploded. And the one must have done this because the shrapnel
went like this. My first sergeant and myself—I don’t know where the company commander
was—but all the shrapnel went like that: tore up everything but it didn’t hit us. And it did that
pretty much around. A couple guys got wounded but we got them fixed up. So, we took care of
that. We—when they come back, we just strip them. And we…I guess we learned a lesson from
that. (00:42:03)
Veteran: So, that was our first time that we went out in hard combat. What Spino and I did, we
developed what you call the Aerial Red Ball Express. We didn’t ask anybody. Aerial Red Ball
Express. We didn’t ask anybody’s permission. We went to one of the lift…helicopter lift
battalions, air assault battalions, and we asked for two Huey helicopters. And what we wanted to
do, and they provided their gun support, we would fly over where Captain Roy Martin was with
the B company and we’d hover about 5000 feet above them and then we’d keep in radio contact
with everybody and then at some point when they could pin them down or the shooting kind of
died off, we would come down and we would drop off the ammunition and we’d drop off food
and water. And then, if something else, we’d have to—and gunships were here to support and
make sure that nobody bothered ourselves. And then so, we created that and then pretty soon a
battalion like that. So pretty soon, Bravo company was coming in and reload and we’d go out to
C company and we’d go out to A company; A, B, and C primarily. Delta company was our
mortar outfit so we used—they didn’t get out that much so they were—they still helped perform
�19
many things when we set up in a defense in the field. Because those mortars drove off the
enemy. Excellent. These guys were quick and they were excellent. Our spotters knew what they
were doing. We had Air Force, foreign observers, and our own. And we could really get after
them with mortars and also with our 105s and 155s artillery. Excellent. We also had a 175, that
one we could fire a long distance and that’s what would drive the enemy away from us in Ia
Drang Valley. (00:44:07)
Veteran: So, we had a couple of extra—a number of exercise—after the Ia Drang Valley, we had
some small exercises but along Highway 19, which comes—Pleiku comes over the Mang Yang
Pass, where those guys got ambushed when the French and the…when they were fighting
the…Viet Minh, whatever they call them. And all the way down to Da—no, Nha Trang, the port.
Anyway, so on the 17th of December, we deployed forward into Binh Dinh Province, which was
down here quite a distance. And there was a corps that kept ambushing all the—everything. And
they were killing a lot of our people. And that’s—all of our supplies were being absolutely
stopped. So, we were given a mission: our battalion was given the mission to get these folks and
drive them off. They go into a village and do bad things. They’re going to kill the men and do
bad things with the children and the women or run the children into the woods and lions—I
mean, tigers—would eat them. And that’s where I first found out—I didn’t know that. So
anyway, it was a village lined up like this and the island was here and we were on the other side
with a forward supply, whatever you want to call it, organization. So, I was involved with that.
And so, two of our rifle companies were in line, and one of them in reserve, and fighting these
people that they had pinned down. They got them stopped in the village. They already shot down
one of our helicopters where we couldn’t do anything with it. It was too close to the situation.
So, we sent in a medevac with gunship support. (00:46:05)
�20
Veteran: And some snipers shot through the canopy and blew the brains of the co-pilot all over
the interior of that aircraft, that helicopter, so he pulled out. And there was a major in charge of
the medevac unit with us forward and I begged him to go back in. He says, “I am not going to do
it, lieutenant.” I am not—I wouldn’t…I didn’t—I was angry. I was confused and…because I had
heard some of my folks had been wounded, maybe even killed. And in fact, there was guys I had
served with for two and a half years. Some of these guys had taught me how to be a man in the
infantry, how to do airborne things and be safe. So anyway, I went to the lift battalions again and
they gave me two helicopters—no, one helicopter for lift and I got two gunships so we made a
pass through that whole mess and I talked to Roy Martin on the ground, I had his frequency. I
could talk to the forward base and to him. So then, so it—the gunships when we came around
and I was able to take a moment to talk: “Yes, we can give you coverage. They’re here, there is a
lot of space here. We can put fires on them and we are confident that we will not disturb either of
your rifle companies on the front line.” “Good.” So, I had a pilot, co-pilot, crew chief and
myself, we got in this lift. No guns on it. In fact, as our weapons were—we just put them away
because you can’t be—you can’t do—we are going to load. It was a hot day so we only could
pick up 6 people at a time. There was 18 to pick up. So, we flew in and set down. My first
sergeant, Roy Pointer, came over this way with these guys. Every one of them was hot, was
dirty, and bloody. And they weren’t saying anything. Nobody was talking. (00:48:13)
Veteran: They didn’t say hi or…And so, we loaded the 6 on and we pulled out. As we were
loading them on, it seemed like somebody got in the back of the fuselage. You know, these
helicopters were—sound would carry. And somebody got there with a stick and was beating on
that fuselage, the tail assembly. I hollered at—I don’t know if top could hear me but the only
thing that I could see here was this: if I wanted to do something else, I had to move like that. I
�21
couldn’t hear anything either way and I couldn’t see anything either way. I could hear this but I
couldn’t see it or hear it. But I heard that. And I hollered at him, “Get that idiot out of here!” And
so, we pulled out and we dropped them off as quickly as we could. Swept out some of it and then
went back and got the next load. And we came back with the next 6: hot, bloody, sweating. And
that guy was still there and I said, “Top, shoot him. I don’t care who he is. Shoot him!” because
he kept beating that fuselage. And so, we pulled out a second time and unloaded, got whatever
out, and came back in the third time. And that idiot was back there again. I don’t even…I don’t
know, I can’t explain it. But we got the last 6 and the first sergeant says, “Get out of here and do
not come back.” And my last remarks to him was, “Shoot the bastard.” And I pulled out—we
pulled out—and we landed and got rid of them and they counted 27 holes in the helicopter. It
was a magnesium-built helicopter. Had one of those rounds been a tracer, it would have blown us
away. I mean, that’s the way it was. The point I am trying to make is when you live together and
work together, you don’t plan to die together but you do it together. Whatever it is, you do it
together. (00:50:11)
Veteran: One of the guys that was killed in that was—I had 7 dead men out of the 18. The other
11 are somewhere. One of them would have came from Detroit and I have his name upstairs. He
was a private first class. He was an excellent infantryman. Knew how to use all of the infantry
equipment for combat. And put him in a body bag, send him to the United States, and we can’t
find him. As of today, this is—that happened on the 18th of December, 1965. We first—that’s
when we first drew blood in a very sufficient, well-documented day; Ia Drang Valley we didn’t.
We had some but not that many.
Interviewer: Right.
�22
Veteran: And not 18 in the battalion and Bravo company. So, I come here today and one of our
folks has looked, and I have looked, and we can’t find him anywhere. Not so far. So, I can bring
that information to you tomorrow. And we don’t know where he is. So, we left that with a new
tightness. That was a terrible experience for us all. I remember going back to the battalion
headquarters when we got in a couple new skirmishes but we drove those bad guys out. We
decimated them significantly and we drove them out; went into the village and did what we did.
And then we flew in another bigger helicopter. Took the Huey out that had been shot down. And
we cleaned up that. And tried to…whatever you can. Anybody we captured, we always checked
for blood first. We’d give them water and food. And we are the only army that does that, even
under these new circumstances. So, that ended our operation to clean up Binh Dinh on the 18th of
December, 1965. (00:52:25)
Interviewer: Alright. And do you get a lull, for a while, in activity? Or is it right back out
toward the Cambodian border? Or what next?
Veteran: What we did, we had a…Usually some of these things that are going to take place—
what I am going to share with you. When we got back, one way of quieting us down was to put
us on peripheral duty and we had our sections back again. And we operated just as with the same
vigor as we did when we were learning how to do this stuff. And so, alright. So, we did that and
it was kind of funny but it’s not laughable. We get up the next morning and the next several
mornings and there’d be at least 2 or 3 of our infantry over on one of the other sectors with a
throat slit. No bombs, no shooting. Or over here. It didn’t happen to us. What happened was
when we brought them in, we gave them two beers. And they’d have their two beers, had a really
Sergeant Rodriguez meal, you know, it’s absolutely gourmet and I mean that. He could take a
pig and make a banquet out of it. Anyway, so he was really exceptional. And they’d sleep it off
�23
and then we would have a 5-mile run or something. Something diverse from everything without
all their junk and then put them on the line and they were awake in the morning. Nobody got to
them and they, after a while, they didn’t like us because we do bad things to them when they
come into our sector. So, they would get established. And then we’d get the division and the
corps level were working their next plan of whatever we would do. So, once in a while, they put
us on Highway 19 as security. So, we had division perimeter security, then you had highway
security. (00:54:26)
Veteran: And the same things would apply as far as staying awake and no alcohol in the—well,
any time you left the base camp, no alcohol whatsoever. Never. And so, that and then other times
we would go onto an area. We’d go back to the Bong Son, which is closer to the ocean, or go
back to the Ia Drang, next to Cambodia, doing some things and shoot them up. We had an
occasional holding action, but not very much. And so then…So, I was the XO up until March.
And we kept delivering things. And one of the things that was kind of interesting: my NCOs did
everything except call me by my first name. They didn’t cross over. They called me everything.
You know, they hit me in the butt but other than that…So, we’d get along just fine. And that’s
fine. You know, I let—I am doing this so I can relate more to people. When I have a tight
haircut, I look mean. But anyway, one of the things that they jokingly said to me, “Strawberry
shakes would be nice, lieutenant.” And so, that word got out. So, I kept landing and I kept
getting that saying. They’d be calling each other, “He’s coming! Tell him.” So anyway, I got that
all over the place. Well, about that time…And this is before that. Okay. So anyway, they had a
unit come in…the 4th infantry, I think it was. (00:56:24)
Interviewer: Mhmm. Yeah, they were at Pleiku, yeah.
�24
Veteran: Okay, they came in and they had some really neat supplies. They had tents with wooden
sides to them. And it had the tent and the wooden side and the screening and oh my goodness.
What did they also have? Hot and cold waders and you know that whatever, house boys? I don’t
know but I do know this. So, we found out about that and we provided some security and
encouragement to them. We shared our things that we were involved in about infantry tactics and
things that you don’t do. One of the things you don’t do: you don’t go to—you don’t go down
the path, you make a path because a path that has already been made is ambushed. It’s either
ambushed with weapons that’ll blow up and kill you. I have a mahogany cross bow that wide and
that long at the tail and when it went off it would have hit somebody in the sternum and killed
them. And the thing—the line or whatever that they use wore out and it didn’t do anything. So, I
got the souvenir; I took that home. So anyway, we went down to Nha Trang when the boats
come in and they had 4th Infantry Division on it. And we traded a few things. And so, we went in
to get some items that might help, that might be a morale builder. (00:58:04)
Veterans: And what it was—they had these boxes…they were dry. You had to put liquid in them
to make them come alive. Malted milk, dry, and you add water. So, we traded something and I
got a whole bunch of that stuff. Enough for the battalion, not just for Bravo company. And so,
we brought that in and Sergeant Rodriguez was busy, he was deployed doing something with our
troops out there and beyond there. And so, we got all this stuff put together and mixed it up,
followed the directions. Boy, it smelled just—it smelled like the real stuff. So, we got it frozen
and we tasted it. Tasted real too. So, we put it in marmite cans and those marmite cans are
bulletproof and, also, they hold cold or they hold heat. So, I had about…I don’t know how many,
but we loaded the Huey helicopter and it was just Spino, myself, the aviator, and the pilot and the
co-pilot, nobody—there wasn’t a crew chief. And so, we flew out there and the heat was so
�25
intense: 140 degrees or warmer. And we flew out there and by the time we came in and we were
going to deliver this load, we told them what it was and they were there to get it so we didn’t
have to—we didn’t want to put our—we didn’t want to touch the ground. So, we just wanted to
get here and they unload it. And they unloaded those things and they were leaking and all of it
was sticky, gooey, all over the floor of the helicopter. And all of these—the struts that were
underneath it were drooling. You know, you could see this long thing coming down when we
were lowering it to the company area and then when we pull out and then go to another area and
do the call ahead and then they were ready for it. Man, they didn’t care if it was hot. And so, we
delivered that and then we went out and delivered the rest. So anyway, that got quiet until they
got into the base camp and then they said, “Man, that—” it did this to our morale. That was just
unbelievable because they were hot and dry. And on patrols at night, we had a guy…we had
some guys that came back from malaria. And they apparently had done well and they got back
on duty. (01:00:36)
Veteran: And I—and so, I was told my buddy, my sidekick, was Corporal Spino. And so…we
tried to please them and find out…so, they came back with warming stories of what this did for
them and then one of our guys, one of our pick-ups we made, there wasn’t a medevac around but
we picked up one of our sergeants and brought him back and flew him to Nha Trang. He took a
bullet right here. And he was alive. So…
Interviewer: Alright, we are continuing our conversation with Roger Talmadge. Now, we
had followed your career in the first sessions, through your initial service in the Navy
Reserves, which included the Army, doing Army intelligence work. And eventually,
connecting with the 11th Division, which is Air Assault Division. Was that their official
title?
�26
Veteran: Air Assault, mhmm.
Interviewer: Yeah. Which became then the 1st Cavalry Division, Air Mobile, in 1965 and
was sent to Vietnam. And as we followed him kind of through that, through helping set up
the division’s base at An Khê and some of the operations he was involved in. By this time,
he has gone from enlisted to officer. Now, and so we kind of got to—around to the end of
1965, early ’66, in terms of your story. Now, before we kind of get into more specifics, you
were serving as the executive officer of your company, is that right? (01:02:26)
Veteran: Right. Of Bravo company.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, and so the job of an executive officer is a little bit different from
a company commander or a platoon leader. Can you explain a little bit the nature of that
job?
Veteran: You can say he is probably the executive or the administrator or the logistician. Also,
the morale officer. Anything like that that would keep the company functional. And of course, it
meets the needs of the commanding officer, the platoons, platoon leaders, the lieutenants. It
doesn’t matter. Whatever they need, you try to meet that. And it becomes very acute and very
pointed when you are in combat. And so, that’s why we created…I finally met this gentleman in
my battalion, a fellow called Spino, and he was a corporal at one point. Finally made that. And
so, we provided supplies as the battle was roaring. We’d really take a load and then come down
with the helicopters and dropped off supplies in the combat zone.
Interviewer: Right. Now when the unit is out in the field, where are you, normally?
Veteran: Back in home base.
�27
Interviewer: Okay. And then, your job there—are you communicating with the people in
the field to figure out where they are, what they need, and keep track of things?
Veteran: Yes. And then also, sometimes when the unit deployed, I would go to the forward
logistic base but still in the administrative support. And looking for opportunities—if anybody
got wounded, we’d try to figure out a way to get them out. And usually, they were picked up by
our medevac evac. That medical evacuation unit and that helicopter-borne unit. And they would
pull them out and bring them to some place that they can get immediate care and then hauled
back to the division headquarters, which had a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital, the MASH. And
it worked out very, very well. And so… (01:04:35)
Interviewer: Okay. So, it’s an essential part of keeping the company functioning. It’s not
necessarily as glamorous as leading people in assaults and so forth but it needs to be done.
Veteran: No, command of nothing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So—but you had to use a lot of creativity to keep the thing alive. Especially when we
brought in the strawberry milk shakes. You know, that was a morale thing. And even though it
turned out to be hot strawberry milk shake, the message got through. And that was key.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And that was very important.
Interviewer: Yeah. The men had told you they wanted their strawberry shakes and you
produced them.
�28
Veteran: So, you try to close those loops. And of course, we bring in mail and then those things
are important. You don’t want to—food and mail are two very important items.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, relating to morale and such issues, do you remember how you
spent Christmas, 1965?
Veteran: Yes, I do. I told you our first day of blood was on 18 December, 1965 and I was located
in a forward base and I operated out of that forward base to haul out those wounded personnel.
And so, right after that, 18, 19, 20, but anyway, right after that we moved to New Pleiku, which
is—you have Pleiku and New Pleiku was created because we put in a large air base there. We
could land a C-141, a large aircraft, that brought in either supplies or personnel. (01:06:17)
Veteran: And so, they’d land at that field. It was run by the Air Force. And it was also—they
didn’t realize they were supplying us with our generators. Because every time they had a raid
and mortar attacks, the air men go running: they go running for the shelters and we go running
for the generators. We had no light. We didn’t have a light system at all. We had no vehicles.
And on occasion, we would find a jeep nobody was using so we’d repaint it and we had a jeep.
And when my jeep was—Spino was driving the jeep one day and he drove off the road. He
missed something so he avoided a problem and it destroyed the jeep. And so, we were on foot.
And these were the same military policemen that came to my B company mess hall for donuts at
12 or 1 o’clock in the morning when on duty. So, they drove up one day and the first sergeant
was there and I got a call on my radio, because I was up forward. I was doing something and
then I’d come back to base camp. And so, he called me and he said, “Somebody brought a jeep
here. Said some logistics supply or whatever organization.” I said, “Repaint the front and rear
bumpers.” And that’s what we did. I had a new jeep. And the military policemen brought it back.
They said, “Thanks for the donuts. Here is a little donation.” So, they disappeared. And then later
�29
on, the first sergeant called me and we had an executive officer that was really a pain on things.
And one time I came back and he was painting all the rocks white like he did at Fort Bragg.
Interviewer: Okay. Was this the executive officer of the battalion? As opposed to—
(01:08:13)
Veteran: The executive officer of the battalion, a major, would come down and—
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: --and give them all these orders. He didn’t have any authority either but he’d give them
the orders of do this and do that and spit shine and stuff. One day, the first sergeant called me.
He says, “You know, we got 10 or 15 dogs around here. They’re wild. They’re just running
around and they’d get food and so they tell their buddies and they show up. So, we’ve got about
10 or 15 of these things.” And the executive officer, the major, told him, “Well First Sergeant,
you get rid of them.” So, I said, “First Sergeant,” he says, “Yes, 5?” “Get ready on your next
load 4 for each canine creatures: load them in.” So, it took about 4 airlifts; we got rid of all of
them. I had to be creative with this because they’d drive him nuts because he was supposed to—
he was important. If I were to bring in somebody dead, you know, if we were bringing somebody
to grave registration, we needed him to be there to receive them. Otherwise, I would take them to
grave registration. But he would take them to grave registration. But I—we documented he got
them from me and then they got them from him. And so, the wounded died en route or whatever,
killed in action, were never left alone.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, I—we had started this bit with my asking about Christmas ’65.
So, nothing particularly special about it but you happened to just be at New Pleiku? Or…?
�30
Veteran: Oh, okay. So, we went to New Pleiku and I changed the subject. Well, when we went to
New Pleiku, we were rest and relaxation. And so, there was a unit that gave us security so we
didn’t even have to do that. Well, Sergeant Rodriguez showed up and he cooked a meal that
would—oh my goodness. And we had quite a few visitors. And also, General Johnson, I think
his name…General Johnson showed up and when the word got out to Rodriguez that Johnson is
showing up, he quickly ran out of the back of the tent where he was cooking a big turkey and a
bunch of other things and he had some help, so he wasn’t alone. When he put his regular uniform
on, he was a platoon sergeant. He was one of our platoon sergeants and went out in combat. So,
Johnson showed up and says, “Where’s Rodriguez?” and so, he came out of behind something.
“Here I am, sir.” “Are you in the tent cooking?” “Oh no, sir. No, I am a platoon sergeant.” And
so, when he left, he put his apron back on, went back in there and did the cooking. (01:10:46)
Veteran: But he—now, General Johnson had lunch with us and it was wonderful. And he
enjoyed it and he says, “I still have remembrance. Rodriguez is in here somewhere, doing
something, but I can’t catch him.” So, that was his comment he left. Then, the chaplain had a
service. We had 21 killed in recent times. Seven that one day and another 14 scattered over a
little bit of time during the month of December and the end of November, because we came out
of Ia Drang Valley with some kills. So, we had that. And in my orderly room, and this is kind of
vulgar, in my orderly room I had a Christmas tree. And I had beer cans hanging on it and
condominiums—
Interviewer: Condoms.
Veteran: Condoms. A whole bunch of trash like that. And he was going to report me to the
executive officer and court martial me for being sacrilege. I said, “Chaplain, let me tell you
something: that’s today. By spring, this is going to be a beautiful tree because we brought
�31
freedom to these people. And it’s going to be wonderful and all this other stuff. You’ll even see
it: it’ll go away.” “Really?” So, what did he do? Here he is honoring these 21 souls that have
passed, that have given their lives, have given it everything, they were good soldiers. We loved
every all of them. From all the companies. (01:12:14)
Veteran: And so, he said, “Let me tell you what Vietnam, South Vietnam, looks like today and
what it will look like in the future because of your sacrifice.” And so, he kicked off and he had
Bible references and all that other stuff that I didn’t have. I just, you know, we were just running
that way because we were mad at everything. We really were upset. Our hearts were broken.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, the mention of the decorations of the tree and so forth reminds
me of another question that I wanted to bring in and that is that 1st cavalry division, when
it set up its base at An Khê, had some unusual accoutrements I believe. And one of them
was there was a brothel right outside the gate that the division itself managed. Do you
recall that? Did that kind of thing…Did that keep problems under control or did it
contribute to problems? Or…?
Veteran: What it did: one of our soldiers painted that big sign and it said ‘fun, travel, and
adventure.’ That’s how he signed them. And I said, “Good. There are several ways you could
interpret that.” So, it was a beautiful sign and the generals left it alone. But all of us knew. We
came in, that was one of our high spots. We came—we left from that and went and came back to
it. A little bit of a rebel in each of our troopers.
Interviewer: Okay. But on the whole, were morale and discipline pretty good at that point?
Veteran: Our battalion…we were busy. We were almost in the field all the time. We came back,
cleaned up, shaved up, you know, got our act together, picked up new guys. And when I got a
�32
lieutenant, I assigned him to one of our platoon sergeants. And the platoon sergeant was in
charge for at least a week or two. And the lieutenant did everything the sergeant told him;
otherwise I’d have him for lunch. And he wouldn’t like it. And that kept them alive. So, very,
very well. (01:14:19)
Veteran: When they came back, they know that after they cleaned their weapon and got their
uniform and the other accoutrements that they carried cleaned up, they’d get a nice meal.
Rodriguez would show up and cook them a wonderful feast. And they got beer and that was the
end of that. And then, they’d get ready for the next assignment, either perimeter duty or another
assignment out on the highway, which is also a defense or assault into some area that needed
restoration and feed ‘em… introduced to that area. So, no. We got along well with each other.
We had no fragging. None of this stuff. No crossing over. At least, in Bravo Company
particularly but other companies too. We had no fragging whatsoever. And one of my soldiers
got in trouble. He rebelled against something and I think I told you that we brought him to the
tent and we had him dig a 6 by 6 and put a quarter in it and I went and inspected the quarter and
said, “Now, bury it.” And he finally wised up. He was a really fine, non-commissioned officer.
But we took care of them while we were back at Benning and we kept doing that. And we kept
doing that. And we didn’t take—we didn’t let little problems…We didn’t ignore them. Because
it—and we didn’t baby them either. So, that was important. So, we left—we pulled out of New
Pleiku in January and went back to the field and got engaged in some forward looking, or
forward, areas. One of the areas that we went into a couple times was in Bong Son, which is up
along the sea coast there. (01:16:10)
Veteran: And there was a…Every time we went in there, we had to start afresh because the bad
guys were in there and they’d leave after we ran them off and then they’d come back and do bad
�33
things. And so, we did that a number of times. And then also, down Highway 19, had…just south
of Binh Dinh, where 18 December battle took place, we landed at Phuket and that was a forward
base. And while I was there, some of our wounded guys were in different places. I did not go to
the field but they ended up in that hospital in that town I keep forgetting on the coast.
Interviewer: You have Quy Nhon and Nha Trang.
Veteran: Quy Nhon.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: They had an evacuation hospital there. Excellent surgery unit and all that stuff. So,
they’d end up in there and that’s where the one guy that was shot close to his heart…I’d go visit
him and the doctors went crazy because Spino and I had all this—we had our automatic weapons
and hand grenades and we are walking in, seeing this sergeant, and I am cooing over him. And—
but I said, “My goodness, he fell asleep. And I am not going to say anything. That’s a court
martial offense. You came back. You were deathly ill when you left us and you came back and
you were exhausted.” And what happened was the enemy patrol came right through where they
put their foxholes on a trail. You never do that. Well they did and the AK was pointed right at
him and he went like this and it missed his heart by that much. And that’s what saved his life.
And of course, they took care of him, the bad guy, and ran him off. But no, we didn’t—just
cooed over him, loved on him, and left. And of course, there was captains that outweighed me
and so I—you know, we got in our jeep and took off. But we…But that was—that’s what we did.
But also went back to Phuket. (01:18:14)
Veteran: We ran out of jungle fatigues. We’d rip them up, mess them up, and all that stuff and
our leather boots were falling off. So, I gave Spino one private first class and I said, “You take
�34
him and I want you to go down to the 80, whatever, 5th evac and get in their supply room where
they have all the stuff that soldiers have come in and they leave their equipment because we need
equipment. And just tell them that you were directed to come here and clean the place up and
help the nurses out by doing so.” So, they did and the nurses were so pleased and patted them on
the back for being so helpful. And man, we got uniforms for a lot of the guys that didn’t have
any in our battalion. And we also picked up some pouches that we needed and web gear and
odds and ends. But that thing was a mess, that supply point. It was just terrible, so we cleaned it
all up and it ended up where we could issue it immediately. Also, that’s when I went blind. I lost
vision. It was fog over my eyes. And so, I went down to the same evacuation hospital in Qui
Nhon and the doctor measured each of my corneas and then prescribed a cream that I think, as I
mentioned before, that in a couple weeks that went away and that was just fine. So, I got back to
duty and I didn’t get stuck with anything.
Interviewer: Okay. So, did you have to stay in the hospital for those two weeks? Or you
just got the cream and went back to—
Veteran: No, I was out in the field as soon as that started clearing up. It kept going and got
clearer and it got really well. So then, right after that, sometime after that, I was moved from
Bravo company into the battalion headquarters and became the intelligence officer for the
battalion. Now, the intelligence officer provided information on the order of battle, composition
of not only your forces but possibly the enemy, if you could capture that information. Well, you
had two types of enemy. You had the regulars that had formations and then you had the
irregulars that showed up everywhere. They’d ambush you anywhere, at any time. (01:20:34)
Veteran: Indiscrete at all, at best. And so, I started with that and I got—I had a conference with a
commanding officer so the executive officer didn’t get me. I said, “I am not going to be the bond
�35
control. I am not going to sell bonds, war bonds, or anything else bonds, or run the officers’ club.
I am going to do my job. And this is my primary job. I am not going to carry the map for the
lieutenant colonel either.” So, they put the word out and he was fine with all of that. Fact is, he
enjoyed the intelligence service kinds of stuff and he was a close—he kept watching me because
I was the only direct commissioned mustang in the outfit. I was a misfit. And so, without his
support, I would have been lost. But he was our first battlefield commander. And so, he took
good care of me and so I came up to the staff and all the documents that were messed up were
taken care of so he wouldn’t get in trouble. Then, 2 E-6 sergeants—I got with them and they
were sharp guys and I said, “You want to try something new?” Because I also was familiar with
the Soviet…what they call ‘defense in depth.’ And what it is: they start out here and have some
defense and as you—the closer you get to the core gets intense. And it’s maximum when you get
to the perimeter of their headquarters, your unit or whatever was out there in their field location.
(01:22:06)
Veteran: So—and what we did, we reversed that and called it ‘surveillance in depth.’ And so, we
experimented with that. We had—and we also needed some way of generating random numbers.
Now remember, I didn’t have a college education but I knew somebody told me or whatever—
but I said, “Get me a math—one of these math books that has numbers in it.” And one—sure
enough, there was a place where you could pick a set of numbers and you just scramble them.
And it told you how to do it. And we started that and we laid out everything around us for about
10 or 15 kilometers and we started this way and went like this. And then we broke them out
according to the geographic stretch around it and we gave a unique number, alpha numeric
number, for each of these sites. And then we’d change it every 24 hours. And so, each one was
given a symbol and some symbols meant that the patrol would come out like this. And I got in a
�36
helicopter and I looked at the division base camp and they had these trails that went out a
kilometer and they came across here and they came back in like that and they were all over the
place. And that—by the time they went out, the enemy knew that they were coming so they’d
ambush them here. And they wondered why. “Gee, every time we go out, we get ambushed.” So,
what we did, we were in the same situation, but I’d fly them out and dump them in here and
they’d be listening close at night and then they’d slowly move in this way and they’d catch these
guys in some kind of a mode of ambush and we’d ambush them. They couldn’t understand that.
And then sometimes, some were marked where, indiscriminately, usually it was after dark. I’d
have two gunships go by at this area, this geographic area, and they’d just shoot it up. No—it
was a—we kept out, away from it. Or, I’d mortar this place and do something else over here.
(01:24:13)
Veteran: And usually when we had these listening posts at night and we’d shoot up something,
we’d catch folks come in and we’d capture them. And after—and the other thing that we did,
instead of, as you’ve heard in some of your presentations, you’d have half the men in rest and
half the men on security. We broke it in thirds. We’d have half—30% on security and 30% on
reconnaissance, and 30% sleeping. And they got more rest that way. And then after a while, I
had permission again from the same battalion commander, I raided all the rifle companies in
Delta company, which is our weapons company, and I had 5-man teams that’d go out 15 or 20
kilometers away from where we were. And again, this outer ring had its uniqueness too and it—
that would change. So, we couldn’t fire into it with anything unless that changed or somebody
moved laterally out of it somehow. And so, I went up to the G-2, which is the lieutenant colonel.
And he knew me because I was the first direct commission in the military intelligence service.
And so, they watched me very carefully and they—whatever we wanted because I could ask
�37
them specifically about stuff that none of the other guys that had that job that was an S-2 knew
about. And so, I had heat-seeking aircraft loaded with heat-seeking equipment. And so, at night
I’d put somebody out here or out here and so I’d—we’d run a line, knowing where the Ho Chi
Minh Trail basically is a bunch of trails, right off it, 15-1600 of them. And so, what you’re
looking for: any kind of heat mass. And if it got near to us, our guys would click and let us know
okay, they are passing. And they’d just sit there and do nothing. They never shot a round. And it
was 6 or 7 months that I was doing this. (01:26:24)
Veteran: But anyway, and then we’d wait until they got way down here where we had a
registration point and we’d hit it with a massive artillery and then we’d wait two hours, put the
birds back up. And if the heat mass was moving, we left it alone. If the heat mass was still
moving, we’d set up an ambush down here. And so, I didn’t lose any people that way. I don’t
know what they lost; I have no idea.
Interviewer: Now, 15 to 20 kilometers out is an awfully long way for an infantry battalion
to do business, isn’t it? And I don’t recall that as being—normally, we leave that kind of
thing up to long range reconnaissance patrols or special forces types or other things like
that. But you were just kind of improvising that with the battalion?
Veteran: Yeah. We cheated. Yeah, we had these aircraft that we purchased from Canada. They
were 2 engine aircraft that could loiter a long time. And—but they didn’t fly fast and out the tail
assembly, they had all these antennas. And we could talk to the world. and so, these guys here go
ploof and we get it immediately. Or get it into one of our major systems and it could go across
the division or some place else. And so, we always had it. And then when the plane was—had
been on station for a while, another one would come in and take over and this one would shut
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down and fly back to where we were and refuel. So, they always had close communication all
the time. But we didn’t let them talk.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Because you could pick them up but if they click-click or there was somebody, nobody
knew what that was. We did but they didn’t.
Interviewer: Right. So, you never had to go and extract some of these people? (01:28:09)
Veteran: Oh, yes. Oh, we’d extract them. We’d have some kind of a faint kind of a thing. We’d
fly in birds sometimes and do this and then fly out. And then, so we’d come again as if we are
going to land the second time with troops and the enemy would assault. When they did, we’d just
blow the landing zone away and pull back out. But sometimes we’d fly and we’d check the area
and we got no heat mass and so we’d come in and we had gunships to support them and we’d
load them up and pull them out. And picking up 5 guys is real simple.
Interviewer: Because one Huey could do that? What do you think? Would one Huey be
enough to pick up the 5?
Veteran: Usually. Worst case, worst scenario, hot weather with a high humidity, we could carry
6. That’s what the rescue was in December.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, it was very hot and also the humidity was up. So, we could use one Huey but we
brought the other one anyway. And so, they’d do this and then fly up. But the enemy thought oh
boy, he’s bringing more troops. We are not; we didn’t bring anything in. And so, after a while we
captured these guys and we couldn’t figure out what we were doing. We’d ask them…We’d try
�39
to get a sense of what’s going on with them and whatever little unit they had out there, trying to
ambush us. And they’d say, “You everywhere. We no find you.” That’s right because we just
raided the area and left it and, of course, we had people somewhere else. But they never could
find us. So, we documented that thing and it’s registered in the Department of Defense archives.
And its ‘surveillance in depth.’ And it stopped surprise attack of the 1st Cav Division
headquarters. And when you go the field and in May we went to the field and Operation…Gosh,
I forget the name it had. Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse and we landed in a valley. (01:30:17)
Veteran: And the first thing is I was screaming at him, “Companies! Get your patrols out.” So, B
company put their patrol out, Alpha company put their patrol out, and Charlie company was in
reserve. And whatever they were doing back was covered. And I was in the headquarters down
in this valley and up top side must have been elements of a regiment. And they were dug in.
They were dug in: they had a headquarters underground and tunneled and everything else. They
had already raided a couple areas over here and over here to our flanks and killed everybody. All
the Americans—the unit was lost. And we started taking fire. And so, what these two, Alpha
company and Bravo did, they assaulted up the hill and engaged them and actually destroyed their
communication system. And we lost some people there. I lost a lieutenant in that one. We got
one…one…what do you call it? We got a Medal of Honor out of that and a bunch of Silver Stars
and so forth. And the only thing that I was concerned about is we were setup in a trap. We should
never have gone in there. Why do you go—tactics tell you you don’t go in a valley. You go—
you take the upper level and move out from there. We didn’t do that and so what they did,
they—right after this thing started and it got quiet—they came in heavy. Our forces came in
heavy and pulled us out and then they bombed the place out of existence after we left. (01:32:05)
�40
Veteran: And so, Spino was up dropping stuff, food and ammunition and water and who knows
what to them. They didn’t know that I wasn’t on the helicopter. Well, he learned how to do it
well so I made sure he got a special Bronze Star for that. But now that—that was a mess. So, that
was a…one situation where it just…surveillance in depth paid off handsomely for us. And then
we—our battalion became corps reserve. We were placed in corps reserve and we are sitting
somewhere in the highlands. And the Navy had helo-ed in from the…it’s the helicopter borne
landing ship. And so, they put in a battalion-sized unit in the Bong Son and they were ambushed.
They were really surprised. And so, they called on us to come alongside of them. You know, we
trust our Marine buddies. We don’t say anything about them. What happened was, and as an
enlisted man, a former enlisted man, I was furious. I exploded on the officers. And that was at 2
in the morning. They all went and got up for breakfast. And they had their milk shakes and they
had their bacon and they had their eggs and all this stuff and then a couple hours later, they heloed in there in 140 degree temperature and they were throwing up. Now, they are brave soldiers
but somebody in command allowed them to make them immobile. They were ineffective. And
so, until they go ahold of themselves, we just secured the area and moved the enemy forward.
The enemy was wiped out by 500 Snake Eaters because our battalion was bad news when we
showed up. And but we were together and we were tight and our officers made sure that
we…After our two beers when we got back, nothing. And then you filled yourself up with water.
That was a big deal and food; whatever you could. We only ate one meal a day. That’s all we
had. (01:34:36)
Interviewer: Right. Now, did you get an R and R during that tour in Vietnam?
Veteran: I got an R and R for about a week and I took that in Thailand.
Interviewer: Okay.
�41
Veteran: And I had one of my buddies, one of my platoon sergeants, with me. Elrod was his
name. And he was a guy that was so obstinate for all the right reasons. When we inspected his
barracks, all the other barracks you walk in there and the floors are spit-shined, you know? You
see the glare in your face. His were nice and clean. He said, “I don’t want to waste time cleaning
this stuff when my troops—they need to be well trained and refreshed to do their primary job,
and that’s become a fighter.”
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was that back in the states when that was going on?
Veteran: That was back in the states and then we deployed to Vietnam together. He was still in a
rifle company. He was one of the ones that came to me and said, “Get rid of the commander.”
And so, he and I went there and enjoyed quite a…Well you know, I ate food I never ate before. I
don’t know what was in there but it was all good. And then we left; we came back home. And it
was kind of funny: in the Navy I flew in C-54s. And what it was was a passenger/logistics
aircraft with 4 engines. And turbo prop. And this one had a problem on the starboard side. One
of the engines just wouldn’t start. So, what they did, they took a—we were—we had to stand
away from the craft and the pilot and the co-pilot…I don’t know. They cranked up the engines
just absolutely and then they, what I call pop the clutch, and they let go of the brakes and went
roaring down the field and at some time they put the magneto over on that starboard engine and
the thing just began and it kicked in. Then, they came back with everything turned off except that
one engine and then we loaded on and they flew us back. But that plane—I don’t know how long
they flew it that way. It was the admiral’s personal plane. It had beautiful wood in it and all that
stuff. A little desk. But he let us use that to go on R and R. (01:36:54)
Interviewer: Alright. And so, when do you leave Vietnam?
�42
Veteran: Oh, I just…one other thing happened.
Interviewer: Oh, I am not—I am just using this for reference so answer that question and
then we go back.
Veteran: To answer the question, I left in August, ’66.
Interviewer: Okay. So, kind of go back now to where you were.
Veteran: Okay. Now, what I want to remember is the time my company commander, Roy
Martin, went on R and R. And he was a fighter. He said, “If I am not in a war, I am going to get
out of the service. I am just not going to do it. I did World War 2 and Korea. I have always been
in the military in the front line.” He was an Airborne Ranger and all this stuff. He did 1300
parachute jumps. In World War 2, the parachutes were like this. And he was testing—that was
the T-7. The T-10 would come in like this and you could do something like this and it would go
this way. If you dumped the air out that way, it would go that way. And so, you can maneuver
with that thing and get away from stuff. And that’s what saved my life because I almost crashed
into an ambulance, a steel ambulance, on one of my jumps. But anyway, so the battalion
commander got ahold of me and the exec officer and he marched Roy Martin out to the little
airstrip where the helicopter came in and he stood him to attention and he had me take away all
of his web gear, everything, except his wallet and whatever. And so, he gave him a direct order
to board the helicopter, get out of there, and I will see you next week. So, he left. (01:38:26)
Veteran: Soon as he left, and before he cleared the area, I called the rifle company. I said, “This
is left tackle 6. A former left tackle 6 is now airborne out of the area. I am in charge. Out.” So, I
took his signal, I took his command. So, one of the things I commanded was when the 25th
infantry division came in, they were to go to the 3rd brigade into the New Pleiku area and they
�43
were on kind of a hill. So, they had a commanding view. And General Westmoreland came in
and fired the first artillery round. We—our rifle company provided their security. So, we ran
these patrols like a…we ran patrols right. We did some things but we were still kind of…I
couldn’t get the G-2 involved yet. But we still did some things to make sure that this village
didn’t get involved with us. So, we kept them safe. And nobody shot at us and we were fine.
Problem was I was a first lieutenant still and I go to the staff meeting and Colonel Stautner—oh,
of course he had been around for a long time and his battalion commanders would meet and his
company commanders would meet for a briefing that evening about the enemy situation,
weather, terrain, anything. And so, then they’d ask me—say, “Okay now, our guest who is
providing our defense, would also like to have some room for a briefing.” So, I had briefing. I’d
brief them on how we are deployed and what we are ready for and our experience. And we
had—we were trained by the 173rd Airborne Brigade about what you don’t do. (01:40:19)
Veteran: So, I am going to give you some lessons about that. And especially these…I know West
Point captains, they hear that they just—they didn’t know who I was. They didn’t know if I was
West Point or Shang Soo, whatever. But they knew I was a first lieutenant and here I am talking
to them that way. And I said, “One of the things you need to learn right off is that you’ve got
your inside perimeter and you have your privates and corporals and all that pretty much out there
and the sergeants are in charge of their fire teams and squads and so forth. Now, they are to keep
their weapons unloaded. Ammunition handy but unloaded. And then, if we get overrun, when
one of our privates or sergeants come running through and jumps in one of your foxholes, he will
tell you when to load.” And one captain stood up and said, “Lieutenant Talmadge, I heard what
you said but I am not going to do that.” And I said, “Sir, I’ll shoot your ass.” And I walked out.
So every—from that day on, Stautner referred to me, “And tonight we will be briefed by Little
�44
Caesar.” And I could say anything after that because he was a danger to us. I’d have had him
relieved. We had no choice. And then, in my clever, I tried to—it was New Year’s. So, what do
you do on New Year’s? You have fireworks. So, we had fireworks. I said, “Okay. Mortar
platoon; fire mission. Over.” And they went straight up, as far as they’d go, and they’d go poof.
Well, the wind caught it and it flew into the village and caught part of it on fire. So, I thought:
well, there goes my commission. (01:42:06)
Veteran: It was out the window. And my guys—our platoons went down there and put it out and
the lieutenant, the second lieutenant, I remember he came in. he chewed me out. He just—he
said, “That was irresponsible. What’s wrong with you? You lose your mind?” And he just ripped
me up. But anyway, I said, “Okay, thank you. Forgive me. I am sorry.” But anyway, everything
was safe. But everyone else was laughing. And then, one of the things: foxholes are for people.
Interviewer: Yes.
Veteran: That’s a rule. And so, I got in one foxhole—I was dead dog tired—and I just needed 15
minutes. I took my poncho, put it over me. All of a sudden, it started raining and I discovered
one of those idiots is pissing in the foxhole. And I screamed at him; he took off. I don’t know
who it was but I had to go wash that thing out. I didn’t get a direct hit but still, it’s the idea. That
was a lesson. The foxholes have got to be available for use, not for using it for a urinal or worse.
You know, you take care of that out somewhere else. So, it was a man—I don’t know if it was
one of the new guys and he didn’t understand. But there’s an orientation we all have to go
through. So, that was kind of a remembering thing.
Interviewer: Okay. Were there other larger operations you were involved in, or your unit
was involved in, once you were doing intelligence work?
�45
Veteran: Right. When I was…I got promoted to captain in March, whatever it was. And so after
Bong Son and this other thing with the Marines coming into that area, so we were there several
times, but we were somewhere in the forward base. And so, I went forward and I was walking
with my old rifle company. We were on patrol. And they made sure they had—I had machine
gunners. This black guy I told you about, he was over on my flank. He had a machine gun and
nobody was going to touch his lieutenant to be made captain and working at the headquarters.
And so, they watched me like a hawk. (01:44:21)
Veteran: And the brigade commander found out that I was out on the front line. “What is a
staff—” He just exploded. He couldn’t get me; I was out there. What are they going to do? So, I
stayed out there and then we came up to an area where some guy was out in the farm field and he
was harvesting corn or I don’t know what it was. We told him…and so he got down and we had
him come to us. And so, one of our guys—the G-2 from the division got me a South Vietnamese
soldier who was fluent in 5 different languages: English, French, and dialects of Vietnamese.
And we are in with Montagnards and some other things had happened and we got involved in.
So, we talked to the guy and we told him: “This is a peaceful mission, we want to bring freedom
and quietness to your village.” And he bought into that. So, when we came in, he got the chief
with us and the chief said, “Okay, tonight I will show you where the ambush sites have been set
up.” So, we captured that whole outfit without firing anything. Nobody got hurt. So, that was
one. One of the things that I used to do is I’d go in with the hamlet chief. It was a great honor for
them for me to come to them. And my Vietnamese was terrible. But anyway, I took this guy with
me and so I’d drink their rice wine and after a while, I wasn’t worth anything. So, I’d make sure
a helicopter was out there for me. I’d get up above 5000 feet, it’d take me about a half an hour
and I could be completely sober. (01:46:05)
�46
Veteran: So, a couple things happened with that. I remember one time we were in the field and I
was just doing my normal job: to make sure our perimeter was safe and that our troops had
deployed out to do something but we still had our patrols. And even the hamlets used to give us
personnel to lead our patrols, and that is dangerous. But these guys have fought in the ‘50s
against the Viet Minh and so, “We will keep you safe.” And they did. They’d do this and
“Everybody get down.” And they’d bring back a Claymore mine that had been rigged to go off
and explode its 1000 BBs at us. And that’s where I got—in one of those, I got my mahogany
cross bow. And that would have killed us. The other thing that they—if you tripped a little thing
on the ground, this ball, this mud ball full of bamboo sticks dipped in feces—human feces—
would come down the trail and tear you up. And the feces would get—not only were you torn up
but you had that infection in your system and it could kill you. So, they’d go in and bring that all
back as souvenirs. So, we did that for a while. And then in one place, we knew the enemy was
around us. That’s when I put out folks in the heat system. We knew they were around us. It was a
fresh unit and they had a lot of supplies and a full complement. And so, one of the hamlet chiefs
sent a runner to where I was because I had the medical folks with me too. And the hamlet chief’s
wife has got a terrible cough. I am not a doctor; I don’t know what that means. So, I got ahold of
my chief medic. He is really a super guy. I mean, he is a real good meatball surgeon. (01:48:08)
Veteran: And so, he went out and he was gone a long time. So, we—I was there in the
morning—so we—I was in the chow line, waiting to get fed and this—he comes back, this
sergeant first class and he talks about my ancestors loud. I mean loud and aggressive, calling me
all these horrible names. And I said, “What’s wrong, sergeant? What’s got you?” He said, “The
baby was breech and I had to turn it around and it was born fine. But you should have known
better, captain.” I didn’t know better. I don’t know. So anyway, that was a crazy thing. Another
�47
thing was we went to another chief’s…We drove there and I had my medical team with me. And
so, the chief met us there and he knew we were coming. They knew everything. And so, we
came in and we had our, you know, our greetings to each other. And my guy talking about how
are things going, enemy activity? Yes, there is but you are safe. There is nothing around right
now that will…that will get to you. And that’s fine. And we are glad you are here and thank you
for helping us. Some of them had leprosy and all’s we could give them some cream to take the
pain away. But we couldn’t help them. They’d just eventually die. So, we’d get there one night
and they died so we gave them room so they could have their funeral. We didn’t disturb
anything. And so anyway, I got back to where I—where the tents are, where our mess hall was—
and the runner from that same village came running in and he told my interpreter, he said, “The
hamlet chief just wanted you to know, captain, that the ambush that was set up to kill you they
were sitting on, 3 huts down from where you met.” They were sitting on them. Took their
weapons away and were sitting on them. (01:50:07)
Veteran: Isn’t that crazy? So, that was kind of nice. But we really got along with the
Montagnards. We had a South Vietnamese full colonel who was an artillery officer. I don’t know
how we got ahold of him but he was…he came to visit. And there was a full row company. Are
you familiar with them? It’s a bunch of renegades. It’s a bunch of Vietnamese, Cambodians,
Laos, whatever. Rebels. And they were fighting for freedom for South Vietnam. So, if they’d see
us and we went by them and they set up an ambush, they would just do this. We never saw them.
Then they’d just shush. And we’d walk right by them. And it might be 150 of them in that area
and they’d just sit there and watch us and we’d go through. Anyway, they had several groups and
they’d set up so they couldn’t be wiped out all at once. And they had good security. This guy
�48
ordered a fire mission against them. And so, what we did: we put them on a helicopter and we
arrested him.
Interviewer: So, which guy…the Vietnamese colonel?
Veteran: The South Vietnamese colonel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we arrested him and dined him and wined him and showed up him up and then we
told our headquarters who was out there. And what happened was they put up their full row flag,
they were so bold. And that’s what got us attacked. Otherwise, he didn’t know. So, we sent a
note to him. We didn’t go there ourselves but we stayed away from him. And that was an
unusual encounter.
Interviewer: What impression did you have of the South Vietnamese civilians, to the extent
that you saw them? Ethnic Vietnamese as opposed to the Montagnards or…
Veteran: We had…The villages that we were in when we got—went in to free a village—those
are hamlets too—but many of them were not…Montagnards were mountain people, whereas the
villagers were in a valley and they were farmers mostly. I don’t know anything else they raised
except they had rice paddies and some of them really good. My second tour to Vietnam, we fixed
those up in a really unique way but these guys were working hard and they didn’t cause us any
trouble. Maybe some were Viet Cong; we didn’t know it. But if they come around at night, we
took care of it. (01:52:43)
Interviewer: Right.
�49
Veteran: So, they didn’t get us. And we generally were well received, just like the one where he
was quiet in the field and they gave us hot corn. We were hungry, we were hot, and we needed
water and this hot, really hot, fresh corn was…oh, what a treat that was. I don’t know if we had
gotten poisoned or not. we were going to go and great, great shape. That—none of us got sick
with that stuff. They cooked it. Whatever was in it was dead so it didn’t bother us. So, those were
excellent. But the Montagnards really went out of their way and they’d give us intelligence
briefings and everything. These guys would never tell us anything except for that one after we
left. They knew that that ambush site was going to kill me. They already knew before anything I
did. I’d sneeze and down the road they would say in Vietnamese “gesundheit” or something
because they knew what we were doing. But the Montagnards were very sensitive about us being
in their area. But very helpful.
Interviewer: Alright. Other aspects of the latter part of that first Vietnam tour that kind of
stand out for you? Or do you think you have run through most of them now, or…?
(01:54:05)
Veteran: I think I ran about—I think I hit…There’s one. We came into a town and you come
down 19 and you go off to one side. I forget where it was. It’s a mountainous area and it’s called
Ban Me Thuot,and that’s a resort. It was in the ‘50s. Actually, all of Vietnam was the pearl of the
Orient. It had some beautiful mansions, wonderful service, and gracious people. And it was
just…with that French flavor to it. And then the French went in there and shot the place up. And
the fact is, I met a French attaché driver in—when I was in Oberammergau. I could dance in
French dance steps and all the guys drool and here’s this punk with this beautiful woman, French
woman, she was airborne medic. And if you messed with her, she’d break your arm. She didn’t
mess with me and those guys were drooling. But anyway, so we went to Ban Me Thuot, and the
�50
idea was when you come in, you leave your weapons some place so the North Vietnamese who
were there had their weapons somewhere not with them. So, I don’t know. We might have had a
mule with some of the North Vietnamese but we were talking back and forth. I don’t know;
talking about family or talking about the weather. Anything but war. And I remember some of
our pilots in the 1st cav, if you were an officer or somebody and you’re flying in one of the
bubbles, they’d teach you how to fly that thing. And so, somebody was teaching one of our high
ranking officers and they came in with a bubble and what you are supposed to do is fire up
gently and then you set it down. You don’t do this.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:56:02)
Veteran: And what happened was he did it wrong and the skids hit this way and it just wrenched
everything apart right underneath him. And he took the apparatus that steers it and he threw it
through the windshield. We had to go pick up that thing and take it away. The reason I didn’t get
that—I could fly them when we were up but I wasn’t allowed to fly them because I couldn’t keep
it steady, just like it was all over the place. No, you can’t land or take off these things. If you
want to do that, you can do that up here. But we—I’d go out on reconnaissance with them and
we’d look around and the enemy would shoot at us. They could shoot—they had anti-aircraft
guns that could shoot 1500 feet in the air. And I thought they were flies. “Look at the flies!”
They said, “They’re not flies.” They were gray things, long gray things. They were tracers.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: I didn’t know that. But anyway so, I can’t think of anything else.
Interviewer: Alright. So, we get down now to August, ’66…
Veteran: ’66, yeah.
�51
Interviewer: So, that’s time to rotate home. So, what’s the process now for getting you back
to the states?
Veteran: Well, basically, I was in good health; that was good. And I didn’t—all the documents
that I had were turned in properly so there was accountability there. The weapons and equipment
I had were all accounted for. That was basically it. And then, they took me to New Pleiku, to the
airfield. And I got on a C-141 Starlifter and flew to San Francisco.
Interviewer: Okay, so again, you don’t get the chartered civilian jet thing. You are on a
military aircraft.
Veteran: I am on a military aircraft and boy, when it hauled the wheels up, we all hooped it up
because we were homebound.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, are you still married at this point? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, I got married when I was in Germany. I married a German girl and we had 3
children together.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you get leave home once you come back? When you come back
from Vietnam, do you get leave home for 30 days or do they just send you to another base
or what happens? (01:58:15)
Veteran: Well no, they gave me—I think I had 30-day vacation or leave. My wife was there. She
really didn’t want to have anything to do with me when I got there. Hmm…She made friends
with one of my brother’s friends and propositioned him, I found out later on. And so, that
marriage was on the way out and I didn’t know it. She had told her friends in Fort Benning
where I had left, I left from Fort Benning, went to there and I was coming back to the Fort
�52
Benning, Georgia area. I landed in San Francisco and then she and I flew to Columbus, Georgia.
My mother was still alive so she spent a couple days there. Then my brother Richard, oldest
brother, was there. He’s the one that was in the Navy for about 4-5 years. And so, we had some
time. And then I got into Columbus, Georgia and everything was just sort of strange. I couldn’t
understand it. The kids seemed to be okay. But that was where it ended. And I found out, later
on, I found out that she had talked of what kind of a mean person I was. I don’t know. And
whatever it was. But she was very unfaithful while I was gone. And I think she had a miscarriage
while I was gone too. I didn’t know about it. When we had that battle on the 18th of December,
she wept during that time while I was gone. Because that was the time she could look out the
window—she was living in a civilian house because we had to move off post. And the Army
brown, you know, Army brown sedan with a white star on it would come in the neighborhood
and it had a survival assistance officer and a chaplain in it. And she was crying because it never
stopped at our house. (02:00:21)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That was a terrible welcome home. I just kept that to myself. But that was…I don’t
know how many of our guys went through that but at least that pain I can share with those that
have gone through that too. So, alright, so I got back into there and then I had orders to report to
come back to Fort Holabird, Maryland. And I was going to get back into the intelligence advance
course. And so, I bought a house because I was going to be there for a while. And what happened
was I went through the advanced course and did well. And then from that, they sent me to get my
college education. Now, know—remember I talked to you about this surveillance in depth that I
had to get a math book?
Interviewer: Right.
�53
Veteran: Math is not my subject and I only had a high school diploma, whatever, certificate. And
so, they sent me to the University of Maryland to learn computer science.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Information systems management. I liked the word ‘management.’ I didn’t understand
the rest. But I got in there and it almost killed me because it was all math. It was all logic. The
fact is, computers are nothing but a logic machine. It’s either on or off. and you put it in parallel
series depending on what you are doing. So, I learned an awful lot about that. And during that
time, I came home one day and there was a note on the refrigerator that said, “I am leaving to
find myself.” Hmm…Nobody was in the house. Nobody was in the house; 3 children are gone. I
found one downtown, one was with my mother back to San Francisco, and the other was in
Germany with grandpa. And so, I notified them and the grandpa disowned his daughter.
Interviewer: Now, how old were the kids at that time?
Veteran: 10, 7, and 5.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The boy was 10, and the 2 girls were 5 and 7.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. (02:02:45)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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TalmadgeR2152V2
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Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
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2017-09
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 2), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge went to Vietnam with an advanced party, the 11th air assault division, which became the 1st cavalry division, air mobile in 1965. They were tasked with building a camp at An Khe. Roger later was deployed with his division to the Ia Drang Valley, where he was involved in several skirmishes. He would also deliver supplies to various companies during combat as well. Roger helped medevac men from combat zones when necessary. He was involved in an operation in Binh Dinh, Vietnam, on December 18th, 1965. Roger served as an executive officer of his company during his time in Vietnam. He introduced a scouting technique that was referred to as surveillance in depth. He took part in Operation Crazy Horse and was eventually promoted to captain. Roger went on R and R in Thailand. He left Vietnam in August 1966. After leaving Vietnam, Roger returned to Fort Holabird, Maryland and received additional intelligence training. He attended the University of Maryland to study computer science.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cbf1fa6f755cf5a0ea9198861f8eab7b.mp4
d6b6e574bcc22b34a1fab1fa45b9976f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e05aa0b42c87ccb70f700b17d83f798.pdf
efd66b6b4ac57c0fb697f40a3875d886
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: Okay, we had got in your story to the point where you had finished your
intelligence training at Fort Holabird, Maryland and then they are sending you to college
now to actually get a Bachelor’s degree finally, like officers are supposed to have.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was there another piece or two that you wanted to fill in before
continuing?
Veteran: I wanted to recall a time in April, 1966. We were deployed and we were engaged with
an enemy that was moving and I think it was in the Bong Son area again. We went back there
several times and I was the intelligence officer and I still had my connectivity with the G-2 and
other people. And very sensitive about certain things. I counted it a real blessing that the rifle
companies were really on to it because one day I got a call on my radio that one of the companies
had shot a man riding a bicycle and he was wearing a palm beach suit. And he wouldn’t—when
they hollered, “Dong lai!” he didn’t, which means “Stop!” And he kept going and they did it 3
times and then they shot him. Well, it was a good thing they did because when they got him, they
frisked him and they got some papers from him and it was just columns of numbers and words
and letters and just didn’t make any sense. But it was in good condition. It wasn’t muddy or
�2
nothing. So, I asked him, “Get a runner to me.” So, it took a while but they got a runner to me
and he gave it to me and my Vietnamese interpreter looked at it and he read it. He looked at all
the pages and says, “I don’t know but this is very, very radio secret.” I said, “Top secret crypto?”
“I don’t know. Very, very secret radio.” So… (00:02:10)
Veteran: I forget what Colonel Hennessey, the one—the lieutenant colonel. He is now a colonel.
He is a brigade commander. So, I got on his frequency. I said, “Left Half 6, this is…” you know,
whatever, ‘Vitamin Pill 2.’ “I’ve got a document that you need to get from me now.” He says,
“Roger, out.” And so, his bird came in and I handed it to him. I said, “This is a top secret crypto
document. I can’t tell you anything more about it. I just don’t know. But it needs to get to Saigon
immediately because they can decipher this silly thing. I—we can’t.” So, I gave it to him.
Alright, so they have to blank all that out; just put it somewhere. So, that was one thing. And
then the other thing that I was told by interrogation: that we were in a valley and it has little
rising mountains and it had these little gulley kind of things that went up between the mountains.
And I was told by some of the folks we captured that, “Oh, we got all our storages in those
places because you never check them.” So, I got ahold of the artillery and I asked them if they
could deliver us a little support and I gave them a couple coordinates. And they hit those
coordinates and there was a single explosion. It was an artillery piece. And then there was
secondary explosions and followed by secondary explosions. And they just blew the side of
that—I don’t know what was in there but can you imagine that would have fed the bad guys
some things. Okay, so that’s recollection of what was happening in April.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Now, did I already talk about June of ’66?
�3
Interviewer: What was going on June of ’66?
Veteran: We were in the same general area. Back again, only this time the unit—no, we didn’t
talk about it. The unit also was a unit that was—had fresh, fresh troops. I got this by
interrogation after we had captured someone. It was a fresh unit from the furthest reaches close
to the Chinese border of North Vietnam. (00:04:29)
Veteran: And they had moved into the area and we were outgunned so we hid. I had 180
helicopters that we were guarding. I mean, that’s a large force. And it was our battalion
primarily. I think I am correct in saying that. They were some—those helicopters were
somewhere in the neighborhood and we were using them for apparently fighting the fringes of
that organization. Had no clue how really big it was. And the reason we finally got involved was
the 101st had gotten into that area and they lost a lot of troops and there was an under strength
rifle company, I think 1 rifle company, from the 101st. And I had the name of the battalion
commander but he lost control. He didn’t have any communication with him. And so, we were
going to go in and try to do something, whatever that was. So, my battalion commander and the
operations officer were doing something else and I flew in to set up the forward battalion
operation center. And I was by myself with whatever, whoever, was with me. And so, we kept up
with that and watched that carefully. But we put a bird up there with all of that electronic stuff
hanging out the back. And one of those 2 engine aircrafts that could loiter for us. So, we could
communicate—we communicated with that unit on the ground. And we were able to put Bravo
company…They snuck in and they came down at night and they infiltrated it and reestablished
where there were shallow defense of that area. It had an area down here that was shallow and
then there was a kind of a lifting area here that had backed off and then up here was a mountain
but it was some distance. (00:06:22)
�4
Veteran: So anyway, alright. So, they got in there. So, the next morning, we usually have a mad
minute: we take two magazines full of ammunition and just let it go out there anywhere. So, they
did that and, all of a sudden, we heard bugles. They had bugles and they attacked on line. I
wasn’t there but this was the report I got from Bravo company when I got on the ground as soon
as I could get there. (00:06:48)
Veteran: But anyway, they came assault and they smashed through the front line there and the
commanding officer, who I know quite well, was very, very astute. Commander Roy was
wounded in April and we took him home so we had a new commander of Bravo company and he
was very, very excellent. And so, he had one of the platoons in reserve and pushed those bad
guys out. And so, by the time that the dust cleared and the enemy left, because they were soundly
beat up, but they were 2 reinforced companies on line. That’s most of a battalion. And we pushed
them back. But we ended up with 239 killed that we got that they didn’t pull away. So, I got on
the ground there immediately and I knew most of the guys and I was hollering at them because
they had dead soldiers in water and we needed to use that water. I had them pull them out. They
had cows that had been shot, water buffalo, and they were beginning to stink. I mean, it was hot
and so I covered them with a layer of dirt. Don’t bury them, just cover them with a layer of dirt.
And for the soldiers that were killed, a shallow grave. Get them covered up so the bugs and all
that, whatever, wouldn’t get into your food or on your body. So, they did; they cleaned all that
up. (00:08:19)
Veteran: And…Alright, so then some of the other units came around us but they didn’t—we still
had just Bravo company in the valley situation and all these dead bodies to contend with. A lot of
equipment and some we pulled off the soldiers. We pulled off the ammunition and it has
Cosmoline on it. Brand new. And we had a light machine gun and they let me use it. And you
�5
just laid it on your hand and it wouldn’t even lift. It was excellent; well-made light machine gun.
Kalashnikovs all over the place as well, the assault rifle. That was amazing. And their uniforms
were wonderful. They had excellent, fine—they weren’t worn out and moth eaten. They weren’t
falling apart. They weren’t rotten. They were in good shape. We captured one company
commander and a battalion commander and another company commander was killed. So, we
started interrogating them and got rid of them quickly because we are not really fluent in that
stuff. And so, we got that off to brigade. And then, I got in a helicopter bubble. I got up about 6
or 7—5 or 6 or 7 thousand feet above the—above what was going on, trying to get an
orientation. And by then, we had—whoever was down there left of the 101st and ourselves—we
were in full strength, our two other…well, two plus almost a third company that could put fires
on an enemy force. (00:10:04)
Veteran: They were really unbelievably busy. We had 7 firing batteries, 6 cannons each, and they
were full busy trying to engage these people. They were…It was a huge—we found out they
were called ‘The Black Knights’ or some code name like that. That’s what they called
themselves. And they were well trained and their daddies must have been Chinese but they were
living in North Vietnam. And they were reserve forces. That tells you they were running out of
people. Nobody paid attention to that. And this is 1966. They should have paid attention to that.
The thing that I got worried about is they were bigger than you. Their officers were small but the
soldiers were as big as you. We had women in the third line. Two lines had attacked through and
the third line were nurses or I don’t know what but they picked up the weapons and they got
killed. And that—our guys threw up over that. We don’t like—we don’t do that. We don’t do
that kind of thing. So, hmm. Seven firing batteries and Butch Boyette was in Charlie Company.
And they—Charlie company had just come over to burn. It was getting ready to come down the
�6
steep slope into where the valley is and then there was a gulley here. Of course, you don’t want
to go down in there; you will become a target. And then there was a large—high ground and a
ridgeline on the other side. And he was reporting that he’s pinned down and can’t move and he
can’t sneeze. He can’t stand up and, you know, sneeze because there was one or two rifle
companies over here that pinned him down. And he needed help. So, somebody on the ground
said, “Well, get Talmadge out of the air. He don’t know how to fire artillery.” And I thought to
myself, “You idiot. Everything is firing: on the ground or standing on my head. Nobody is—you
can’t engage—you don’t have any more guns.” So, I don’t know who did it but it must have
been—the Lord used somebody. But somebody got ahold of some ship that was sitting out on the
water and I heard all of this horrible, horrible squawking and squealing and I don’t know kind of
noise twisting. And somebody said, “You got a fire mission? Over. I repeat: you got a fire
mission? Over.” (00:12:44)
Veteran: And I asked them, “Where are you?” Because I knew all the firing batteries were busy.
He says, “Do a 180. Over.” So, I did a 180 and it was only one boat out there. Hmmm…What
could they do? It’s only a 3-inch gun. That’s about it. I said, “Roger, over. I see a boat.” He
started laughing; he says, “Yes, this is the United States Ship New Jersey. Send your fire
mission. Over.” I said, “You’re a battle wagon.” He said, “Roger, that.” I said, “Where’s your
flotilla?” He says, “Do you have a fire mission?” I says, “Yes.” I mean, he said “Yeah,” I said,
“Yes.” He said, “Okay.” I said, “Can you do—can you work a 10-digit coordinate? I have never
fired naval gunfire. I don’t even know what you do.” “Roger.” So, I gave him a 10-digit
coordinate. And so, here was Butch Boyette and here’s this gulley about two football fields
away. And here are these guys over here. And they are standing up and shooting them and they
got some—they got all kinds of ammunition. I mean, they could stand there all day. So, I said,
�7
“Give me one Willie Peter.” Not only will that tell me that they landed in the right place but that
will set the place on fire. A little piece of that will burn you up. (00:14:07)
Interviewer: Because that’s white phosphorus?
Veteran: That’s what it is.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That’s white phosphorus. So, he said, “Roger that.” So, he dropped it in the middle of
there and I didn’t know any better. I said, “Roger. TOT, excellent fire. Fire for effectful
broadside.” Well, they didn’t do that. I was told later by some Navy guys they were laughing at
me. Well, they fired their 5-inch because they can get in there. And they—what they did, they
fired maybe one or two of the tubes because Butch told me that when it hit, it was nothing but
rocks and elbows and eyeballs and all of this all over the place. And just decimated that hill but
didn’t touch him. He said he stood up, and he’s a tall guy like you, and he went down the hill.
So, I thanked them for their excellent work and I didn’t know what—I never knew. The thing is
that bothered the pilot and myself both: I looked at him—I was a little bit closer to him than I am
to you—and I said, “What is the trajectory?” Willie Peter is different. It’s a lower trajectory. I
mean, they might fire it this way but it comes in lower. But when they fire a…with a high
explosive round, I mean it will maintain a high exit. It’s going to go through the helicopter or
under it or over it. I don’t know. I never did find out. I didn’t hear anything. All’s I—when it
exploded, I knew it hit. And it decimated—they didn’t—there was nothing there. There was
nothing left. So, they came down the hill and then I came down. And okay, so I was there and I
went up again because I—we were still receiving fire and we couldn’t figure out where it was.
And so, I had a forward air observer who had been with us about 30 days from the Air Force. So,
�8
I says—he was flying a little beemer. And he says, “I’ll fly around. I’ll see if I can pick up
something.” He sure did. Somebody shot at him. That hill that was all the way over here? Some
idiot shot at him. (00:16:09)
Veteran: And he flew out of there like a—he was on fire. I didn’t know what was happening.
And then within minutes, two 104s appeared and they hit it with Napalm and it burned the thing.
I mean, 2/3 of that mountain was nothing but flames and black. So, my friendly exec officer
comes up on line and he says, “2, this is 5 from the battalion headquarters. Get your ass down
here.” So, I did. “I am going to court martial you. Nobody calls in that. You had no authority to
do that whatsoever.” I said, “Sir, before you court martial me, do you mind if we send a little
patrol out? And when they give their report, then go ahead and haul me away.” “Alright.” So, I
sent 5 guys out. They come back. It took them a while to do it because they had to climb that hill.
It was all a mess. And he came back and he says, “Sir, there’s an antiaircraft gun up there. 14.5
whatever mike. They had a 5-man crew and they had enough ammunition here to kill everybody
in the valley.” And the major didn’t even say, “Well excuse me,” he just, “Huh!” and walked
away. But what happened is, I talked to that captain that was flying the Beaver and he said, “Oh,
they fired at me and when I found out what it was, that’s the only way I knew for sure that we
could get rid of the target without doing something that would really disturb you. It was
concentrated in an area away from you.” And he thought that out because he had been on the
ground with us enough to know that if he would have come in there with ordnance, some of that
might have gotten in our face. And so, that was well-thought out.Well-thought out. And so, when
I left that place, I left that and we’ll get back to him again after I bumped into him again. But I
left that place with a big sigh. (00:18:18)
�9
Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s kind of steer ourselves back to the main line of the story
now. So, you finished Fort Holabird. So, when are you at the University of Maryland, then?
Veteran: I worked part time when I was at Fort Holabird. I worked in the defense index for the
whole Department of Defense. And we had over 600,000 records. We had people in
there…Douglas MacArthur? His records were still in there. We could run a background check on
him and run rabbit trails on who he knew. So, I became the deputy director for that for a couple
months. Now, I didn’t know anything. We had punch card machines technology at that time in
1966. But anyway, the staff—really brilliant people; men and women, civilians and some
military. I forget who the lieutenant commander was, or the lieutenant colonel. But I was just a
captain. And so anyway, they loved on me and they taught me everything and they knew I didn’t
know what I was—they knew I was lost. But I was going to get trained in it. So, they had a
baseball team and they were really good at it. I’d hate to arm wrestle with any of those women.
They were tough women. And but—they were also brilliant. So, they sent me off with a—you
know—all that hugs and stuff. And I got to University of Maryland and I started I guess in the
fall of 1966.
Interviewer: You mean, just a couple of months after Vietnam? Or…? (00:20:10)
Veteran: Well, maybe…
Interviewer: Or was it fall of ’67?
Veteran: Maybe it was ’67…
Interviewer: Yeah, because you had to do the training course at Fort Holabird first.
�10
Veteran: That’s right. You’re right. So, I had…it was the next year, ’67. And so, I went to the
University of Maryland and they were very kind to me. I struggled with the math. I did well with
a lot of it but we had differential and then integral and after a while, I didn’t know if it was
whatever. But math. And then, you worked computers. And I found out in that computer system
that if you’re writing documents, you’re publishing—you want to publish something and you’re
going to take this and you’re going to put it in some kind of format so somebody can enter it into
a document and then you publish it. Now, if you’re going to run mathematics against that…Let’s
say you had a mathematic situation where you wanted to run statistics in it. It was a different
kind of a program that would run that and a different kind of compiler. Well, they taught me how
to write computer programs in 3 different languages. I knew how to write the math stuff; I knew
how to write the word processing stuff. So, what I did—I spent months and almost flunked the
course—I spent months building a bridge between the two compilers. I’d take in a bunch of
material, information you gave me, and I’d store it, send the specific mathematical data that
needed to be calculated over here to be crunched, dump it back in the word process and print.
And I got the thing to work. I was not say—they thought I was just a freshman in it. Well
actually, no. I started off as a junior, a senior, and then I was out. (00:22:17)
Veteran: But some of the stuff in August of ’68…So, I got in there in ’67. The next year, in
August of ’68, my former spouse left; hasn’t been back since. And so, I turned myself in—
because I don’t know why she left—I had top secret crypto special intelligence background. And
I knew stuff or could decipher things. So, I turned myself in to the commandant, who knew me
from the advanced course. And he assigned me a family, a counter intelligence agent school
student. And he was a set up because he was going to be drafted so he signed up in the military
so he could not be in the infantry. So, they put him in the intelligence business. And so, he used
�11
to be the youth pastor at the largest Methodist church on Highway 50. And the only time I heard
Jesus in my household when I grew up as a youth, up until the time even I got in the military
when I go home, Jesus was something when you hit your hand or you went to the…you’re going
to eat something or you’re going to go to bed. And that’s it. It was a godless house. My dad was
an alcoholic and he was also an adulterer so that kind of kept things busy around the house. So, I
had nothing and I wanted out of the house; that’s why I got out. And you’re right, I—thanks for
educating me—I was 17 when I got in the military, not 16. But I wanted—I started getting out of
the place when I was 15. Took a while to qualify. So, thanks, that helped me out a lot. So,
then…So, he moved in and he thought it to himself, “Well, I better have my wife…” his name
was Bill Nairjus [sounds like], “…I better have my wife Bonnie come in and say it’s okay. We
are going to take over the household, take care of Roger and the three children. We are
responsible for their safety and that he’s fed every day properly. And he’s goes to school every
day, gets his lazy buns out of bed.” (00:24:46)
Veteran: So anyway, so she showed up. And she was a born-again Jew. She was a Jewess who
loved Jesus. That really helped my children because they needed loving on. They were so
confused with all this back and forth and noise and racket. And when I was in Vietnam and they
were in Columbus, these strange men were in the house a lot, I found out. What a mess. So
anyway, so they stayed with me and I continued on my education. So, one professor hired me to
write two international, I guess, economic courses. And I had exposure to something that might
be of assistance to him. So, I laid out a schedule of putting that together where you could start off
with A and you worked to the conclusion here. And so, he gave me some high points for that.
One guy sat down with me and listened to me about—and I gave him an oral report with all the
statistics on how to develop this surveillance in depth using mathematical tables instead of using
�12
computers that could zap out and could give you everything that you wanted to be able to change
the identity of different geographical regions. So, that helped me. So, I got through that course,
barely. All of them. Well, I graduated in June of ’69. (00:26:22)
Interviewer: Okay. So, you were in—now, were you on the main College Park campus
taking courses? Okay.
Veteran: Then, I was—I took some courses in Frankfurt, Germany—
Interviewer: Yeah, but—
Veteran: --for two years and then the rest of them at College Park.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so you’re in a major American university in 1968. There were a
lot of things going on in this country in ’68. You had the King assassination, you had Bobby
Kennedy, you had riots, you had the democratic convention. A whole bunch of things going
on plus an active anti-war movement. I mean, how much of that registered with you at the
time? Were you paying attention to the news or did it effect life on campus?
Veteran: I very much had attention to the news. You had two things that you were working
against: you had the stuff going on internationally, so that was in particular where we had just
left. But I had spent a lot of time in Europe so I always kept an ear for what’s going on there.
What was going on in the United States…Didn’t really understand what happened to Kennedy. I
just knew he was assassinated. Didn’t understand why Robert Kennedy…but kept my ears to it.
There was a lot of race riots in different parts of the world, America world. and we had some
people that came in from Detroit and I can’t tell you how we infiltrated them but we did. We
knew what they were going to do before they did it. And I even—when I was going to college, I
always even got down there and I was armed and I knew how to use the—I wasn’t—I didn’t
�13
have a BB gun. But I never engaged anybody. I hauled some people out of the black community
who were very well-respected by the black community. And what the black community did on
the radio antennas of those ones that they liked, they put a black little flag on it and they were not
touched. So, the rioters came in and destroyed the place. Also, the SDS on campus. I’d be
walking along with my short hair cut and I’d have a business suit on or whatever I was dressed
for college. (00:28:42)
Veteran: And all of a sudden, I felt a hand on my right arm and another on my left arm. “Just
keep walking straight, sir. There’s a riot over at the—where you are headed right now to the
where the computer building is and we will take you in the side entrance. Just keep walking with
us.” They did that about 3 or 4 times. And every one of us veterans were—somebody picked us
out and watched us. Boy, I’ll tell you…You know, I was unarmed. And I didn’t know that stuff
was going on but they did. They were part of the student union. The student union kept them
informed of this. But I didn’t go to any of there meetings. I don’t know. But I do know from my
connections back from Holabird that they had a good handle on some of this stuff. Still do. and
also, I took an oath of office to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
And that’s one of the reasons why my boys are where they are right now. So, I finished that up
and then I was—I also in December—I was a mess. Physically I was really a mess. And so,
Bonnie used to call my doctor at Fort Belvoir at the hospital and ask him, “How is the captain
doing today?” And if the doctor wouldn’t give her a report, she’d hit the ceiling. So, finally the
doctor says, “Get him out of town. Take him anywhere but this town for Christmas.” So, they
took me home to Cleveland. (00:30:27)
Veteran: I didn’t know that they were scheming. They were schemers. They had women lined up
for me to meet. And one of them that I met was, you know, one of these bouncy kind of bubbling
�14
all over the place, round like a tear, shapely thing, and I cringed in the corner because I knew
what that was and fact is, that’s out of my house and I don’t need anymore of that. So, that was
done. So, then on the 23rd of December, 1968, went downtown. Downtown in the middle of
town, they have the Higbee Tower and they have a great big department store in that facility.
Also, the metro comes in underneath—a train—comes in underneath and they load and unload
and…So, that’s a pretty high traffic place. So, that evening it was dark and there was a slight
wind with a little bit of snow in the air. And this cute little blonde girl came right up to my face
and said, “Hi, Bill!” and Bill Nairjus came around on the other side and she looked at him and
she looked at me. Said, “Oh my goodness! You’re not Bill!” So, we went on our first date. And
we went to some place in the flats. And that’s where they still show still movies. I mean, quiet,
silent movies.
Interviewer: Silent movies, yeah.
Veteran: Not still—silent movies. And had a beer or whatever else, maybe a little snackie. And I
thought, boy this is—this lovely lady is just absolutely fine. She’s not all wrecked by—the world
hasn’t destroyed her. So, I took her home and of course Bill or somebody was with me. I kissed
her on the forehead and I said, “I will see you soon.” I just left it at that. And so, I was trying to
get in my head because my heart was going like this at the possibilities. Wow. I had never met
such a lovely woman. I’d seen some others that would throw themselves at you but you don’t
need that. That’s destructive. And I was thinking about my children too. They need a real
mother, not a vacationer. (00:32:44)
Veteran: So anyway, I wanted to impress her. How do you do that? Well, you send flowers. So, I
got ahold of some florist and I said, “Gardenias. Beautiful. A nice gardenia plant.” So, we sent
her a gardenia plant and it said, “Charlotte: enjoyed last night. Warm regards, Roger.” So, a
�15
disaster strikes the house. The flowers arrive at the Bolz residence and Ruth Bolz receives them
and begins to sneeze. Hmmm. So, she opens up the card and it says—whatever it said—dearest
or…I don’t think I said Charlotte. I left that out. “Enjoyed last evening. Warm regards, Roger.”
So, she puts the note down and she hollers and everybody in the house heard, “Roger! You have
never sent flowers to me! What is this?” You tell that—that was a double disaster. He comes
down and starts sneezing. All of them are allergic to that—the things. And gardenias I found out
is a very energetic aggravator. So anyway, they got through that and finally Charlotte comes in
and she confesses, “I met some guy last night.” “What?! You didn’t even know him and he sends
you flowers? Tell me about him.” And all she says, “Army.” And she says, “Well, when they
called me and asked if I’d like to go out with a blind date with a major,” I found out she said,
“Well, what’s a major?” (00:34:29)
Veteran: Had no clue. They were not in the military. He had been in the—he had done some
things for the government but he never was in the military so they were skeptical of that. So, by
and by, they invited—she invited—they wanted her to meet me so they invited me over. And
then they found out I was a divorcee. They didn’t know when. They probably thought maybe two
years ago; it was months ago. And I had three children. And they were very polite to me. And he
was very stern and she was more gracious, if you know what I am saying. And hmmm…So, I
left and they told her, “You just walked into a mouse trap. You know that’s—don’t get involved
with that. You’re going to ruin yourself. You have a nice life, you’ve got a good job, you’ve got
a great education and you’re going places. And what happened to your Jewish boyfriend?” She
said, “I cancelled the time with him and am spending it with Roger on New Year’s and the three
children.” “What?!” So, she caused a—they were supposed to go somewhere in Las Vegas and
she called him up and said, “I have to cancel.” And that was the end of him. And so, we went to
�16
the movie and watched Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. And that was New Year’s Eve. And so, I tell
people that on the 29th of December, she begged me to marry her, so I did. It was the other way
around. I said, “I’d like to take you with me to Europe when I go this spring or summer.” And I
didn’t have orders. I knew that I could go there but they were going to send me really to the
Pentagon and I wanted to get out of Maryland. So, she got up and walked out of the room. I
thought, oh man, I blew it. What did I do wrong? (00:36:28)
Veteran: And so—no, she came back. She put a calendar in front of my face. She says, “When?
When are we getting married?” So, we settled it February. So, we went down…we went down to
the local magistrate because I had to get her on orders in order to move the children with her and
we did get orders because the Army was sympathetic to what I was being exposed to. And
Colonel Smith at the military intelligence school reinforced that. “He’s under gun and I’ve got
him under security. And so, send him back to Germany. That’ll break the—get him out of
Maryland and Virginia and everything else.” Okay. So, we went to the magistrate and so the
guy—well, I don’t know what he said. And he said this and then he said that and I said this and
she said this and they said, “Now, here is this. I want you to sign it. Sign it your regular name
and you sign it your new married name.” So, Roger Stuart Taldmadge. And she signed it
Charlotte Rose— “How do you spell your name?” And the judge exploded. He said, “What?!
How long have you known each other??” So, she said, T-A-L-M-A-D-G-E and signed it. And he
said, he just, “Young people.” So, what I did, and this is a—they ask you questions. Sometimes
you get in a couples’ group and they ask you some kind of questions about yourself that might be
personal. So, what I—so, I told them, “Which one of these things I am going to tell you is true or
false. You know, I married this woman after—I agreed to marry her after 9 days after she begged
me? Or…” I forget; something else. And what else I said, “And the third thing is: on our
�17
honeymoon, the first thing we did is inventory. We went over to Higbee Company and
inventoried their wares that they were going to sell in there stay, their military items.” (00:38:34)
Veteran: And that’s the one they missed. That’s what we did. She had me in there and I was in
there writing stuff down and she’d get it and line it up and I’d write it down. We did that for a
while. And then—and then I took her home and introduced her---well, see the children were
there when I first introduced to her. And then I took them to…Well, I lived in Linthicum
Heights, Maryland during while I was in college. And we were going to clean the place up and
leave. But anyway, and then we set the date to get married in the end of March, like the 27th. So,
okay, so the church she had been going to, a United Methodist church in University Circle,
which is still there. So, that pastor married us. He was kind of miffed because I was already
married so he wouldn’t give us a marriage certificate. And the parents were miffed. They
thought, “You know, some couples get married and their first child is—the gestation period is a
little bit shorter than regular children.” So, they were waiting for that to happen. I didn’t know
that; I found it out later. So anyway, we got married, we moved to Germany. And everything
worked fine. We were kind of sneaky as we left America because we didn’t want to have my
former spouse doing some mean things or blocking us legally or just causing trouble like she
likes to. She was always starting some trouble. He called me up and begged me to help him
control her. (00:40:07)
Interviewer: Who did? Her new husband?
Veteran: Husband. Yeah, she married—she had to marry right away otherwise she would have
been deported. The IRS—the INS got her, got ahold of her papers, and said she doesn’t qualify.
But she got married and then they—that took care of that problem. But anyway, when we got
�18
to…We got to Europe then. Then we were able to settle down and I took command. Well, I was
supposed to take care of Army Security in Europe. All of their automation activities. Everything.
Interviewer: Okay. And where were you stationed?
Veteran: I was in Frankfurt, Germany.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was in Frankfurt, Germany. And so, that would have been Army Security AMC
Europe Headquarters.
Interviewer: Okay. And the dates when you are there?
Veteran: Say again?
Interviewer: The dates when you were there?
Veteran: I arrived there…I think it would have been June of 1969.
Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you stay?
Veteran: July of 1971.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, talk a little bit about the duties there and what you
were doing there.
Veteran: Well, you know, I had been an outcast everywhere I had been so I was an outcast there.
I had never been in the system. They didn’t know me from chicken man. The Army Security
Agency worldwide has their own infrastructure and their own click and what family and I was
not part of any of it. They had a guy that commanded the headquarters and service company,
which was a large organization that was stationed ahead and had concerns in different parts of
�19
Germany but mostly in the Frankfurt metropolitan area. And took care of all of the housekeeping
of those troops, including court martial authority and keeping the records squared away, all of
the logistics for the headquarters. Millions of dollars in property. And then the unit was spread
from Berlin to Izmir, Turkey. (00:42:28)
Veteran: That ran by the airfield in Frankfurt. The airfield there had two rotor-wing helicopters
and two fixed-wing aircraft that we used for whatever they—going to the meetings because they
had to go to some meetings in the weirdest part of Europe sometimes and it was high level stuff
that my general and his staffers were involved in. So, they were operators and I wasn’t. In
Frankfurt, Germany, not far—we had a huge former IG Farben building. It was the highest
business building in 1932-33 in Europe. And it was built by IG Farben who had a chemical plant
just outside of town about 40-miles. And they manufactured the materials and gas that killed the
Jews. They also manufactured things that we use in this country to abort babies. They’re still in
business in the murder business. Anyway, we renamed that building the Abrams Building, after
General Abrams. That honored him and the Germans were pleased with that because Abrams
was—when he was in command in Europe, was very helpful and considerate and things worked
well under his tour. So anyway, right next door to that there was a building that had high fencing
security around it and thick walls. And we had a worldwide communication relay place that
came out of…from America and it ran around the world and it came through this site. And so,
the Germans had to protect that from—nobody was allowed on the other side of the fence.
(00:44:24)
Veteran: On each of the 4 parts of the roof there, we had 50 caliber machine guns. Anybody that
got in the fence got killed. Germans knew it. When the SDS showed up, they showed up with
water cannons and they just blew those guys away from that compound. So, they would come in
�20
regularly. Now, when I had been there in Germany years ago, I was over there in ’57, as you
know, to ’62, I lived in housing in Frankfurt and I got to know the Germans and a lot of the guys
that worked on stuff. And I had beer with them and I traded things like a carton of cigarettes,
maybe I could get a gallon of paint or something. And so, those guys were still there when I got
there as a major. I had been promoted. I was promoted at the age of 30. I was up a 5%. They
picked me up and my infantry duty did that. But when I got there, the Army Security Agency
looked down upon a lowly infantryman. So, they pulled Major England out of the headquarters
in service company and put me in charge of it and said, “There. We will get him out of the
building.” So, I had a muster of all the troops. I had a signal corps company in that building, plus
our headquarters people and I told the enlisted men, I said, “If you act strange, I’ll move you out
of the building into—there’s concrete blocks all over the floor on the ground of the motor, you
know, where their motor vehicles were parked around the building, and you’ll live out there.”
My first sergeant was as mean as a snake. (00:46:07)
Veteran: The military police? First sergeant? Perfect. We talked the same language. So, I had
very few people that I knew that understood what I was saying. We started with that. Those guys
destroyed that building, between the two units: the headquarters unit and the security unit.
They’d go in there and they’d take something and they’d smash the porcelain urinals. Or, they
would take the washing machines in the building and put something in it and clog it up and it
would destroy the machine. They’d bring their motorcycles inside the building and change the
oil where they slept. They threw things out through the windows instead of opening the
windows—threw them out the building.
Interviewer: So, why were they doing these things?
Veteran: Because nobody was in charge.
�21
Interviewer: Oh.
Veteran: Once they left the headquarters, they’d act like animals. Now, I knew what animals
were. I’d lived like one for a long time. And we got along just—you see them here—we got
along just very well. But we clean up after ourselves. That’s the difference. They didn’t clean up
anything. And what they were were spoiled brats. Most of them, maybe 90% of them, were draft
dodgers. And how could you—you say, “Well, how could they get in the Army?” When they
found—when their number came up to get drafted, they’d sign up for 4 years and they got in the
Army Security Agency
business because they were brilliant. All of them had brilliant, high IQ
idiots. All of them. And I got along with very few of them. So anyway, I was and outcast.
Anybody that worked with me was an out—they didn’t like that military police first sergeant
either. So, I forget who was commanding. There was a general officer that was in commanding. I
had a polite relationship with him to start with. And they had lost over 50,000—I ran inventory.
You always run inventory of everything you have whenever you change command. (00:48:13)
Veteran: And they had never done that. And I found at least 50,000 dollars missing. And the
supply officer that was right on it—in other words, he was willing to…he was not a brilliant—
one of those smart guys. So, he was an outcast. So, we planned ways of fixing that. And what we
did is 2 things: we went and looked other places besides where we were. I had teletype machines.
What would anybody steal those for? They were outdated but they were gone and they were on
our books. Well, we found some in Berlin, we found some at Asmara and all the outstations,
because Army security had outstations that were not doing things. And they had reports but they
weren’t using them. We found everything except $5000. Everything. And the general had a…he
could sign for $5000. We wrote that baby off; got rid of it. We did that. And in the end, I got
together with my buddies; my German beer drinking buddies. I got my favorite drinking buddies.
�22
I also went to the 3rd Polizeiregier, The third police district of Frankfurt, of my city. Talked to
them; we had an understanding. Then I went to the military police and I had an understanding
with them too. You pick up any of my boys for anything, I don’t care what it is, you call me and
then we can pick them up. And then we take care of them. We don’t want them in your system
more than anything, that way we can protect whatever. If they were drunk and they want them to
say something we didn’t want them to. They said something about how they can keep things
secure, anything. So anyway, those turned out to be very…they were excellent. So, I went up to
the general and we had staff meetings and everybody would report certain things. And he had
battalion-size and other detachment-size senior officers would come in to…monthly or
bimonthly staff meetings and talk about various administrative things as well as operational
things. (00:50:31)
Veteran: One of the things is safety. And they all had these low, low accident report reports. And
mine were coming up and theirs were going down. And 50% of mine, whatever staff, was in
some kind of altercation. And so, the general called me in the office, closed the door, and said, “I
want to know what’s happening.” I said, “Well general, want it on a nutshell? You’re being lied
to. Somebody goes out there and has a fender bender, even if it’s $50, I report it. They have a
fender bender they are covering that stuff.” He said, “Dismissed. Thank you.” And he and I got
to know each other real well. Now, he found out about Charlotte. Charlotte showed up in there
and she got in the ladies’ club. And they thought she was a—they thought I was a lieutenant. Oh
no, a second lieutenant or first lieutenant. They never saw me. And so, this is a lieutenant’s wife.
And so, when the general’s wife came in and she sat down, my wife said to her, “Hi Heloise.
How are you?” “Oh fine, Charlotte. Jeez, I am glad you’re here.” The women just about died.
Because the lieutenant colonels’ wives and all that other stuff in there and they tried to go after
�23
her. And so, she turned—she turned them around and she said, “You go check it out with
Heloise. Don’t you talk to me.” And she was her own woman. (00:52:03)
Veteran: And she’d go, “I don’t want to hear your stuff.” So, they got wise and they found out I
am a commanding officer of the place and I am in charge of all of their personnel that worked for
their husbands and shut your mouth. So anyway, they got along with her but they found out that
she is a priceless cook. She worked for Stouffer’s before they froze everything. She has every
one of their recipes and fondue was the thing that was in in ’68 and ’69 and all that stuff. I mean,
’69 and ’70.
Interviewer: ’70, yeah.
Veteran: So, the general had…I had a guy, I think he was kind of a little bit…But anyway, but he
was a good cook too and so they were having get togethers. And so, the general’s wife got ahold
of Charlotte and says, “Do you have any fondue recipes? You know, I’d like them.” So, she gave
them 30 of them; take your pick. There was nothing for her to do. All she did was change one
ingredient. Stouffer required one ingredient changed so it’s never ever the product that they have
registered.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then she helped the cook with some...some things you could do with steak. And
some other things you could do with some other kinds of food and to fish. And so, then that went
on for a while. So, the general—the wife was so thrilled with that that the general was just beside
himself. We didn’t live in their house but we certainly occupied it with the food side of it. And
we tried to slow this guy down because he was dressed kind of funny. He really needed to be
focused on cooking and acting strange. But anyway, so that went along very well. Now, one of
�24
the things I inherited, along with this accident stuff, we had a guy that got drunk one night and he
went down an up ramp going from the major road into a major highway. And a tanker truck
plowed into him and exploded and killed him. So, all of a sudden, safety became a big issue. And
that’s when I had this thing with the general. So, his other people started reporting right and oh,
you should have seen their records. Mine were—he went and gave me a hug and a kiss.
(00:54:24)
Veteran: Mine—compared to theirs. And then okay, so then the other thing that happened was
we ran a little club and it was very loosely done. I mean, we sold beer and I don’t know what
else. Maybe hard alcohol. I am not sure about that part. But we had little snacks and we would
call it ‘The Speakeasy.’ Or ‘spook easy’ or something ‘easy.’ But anyway, one guy went upstairs
and he was drunk out of his mind and he drowned. I had inherited that. How do you stop that?
Well, I knew exactly how to do that. But this other guy says, “Boy, I am glad I am not down
there anymore.” He didn’t know what—they didn’t know what to do because they were an elite
class; they didn’t have to worry about trash. So, we worried about trash. We knew what to do
with trash. So, what I did is I hired some guys off duty and they were my bouncers and they
could handle anybody. Fact is, when I went in there dancing with Charlotte, they picked me up
and hauled me out of the place when it was time to go bed bye. Get out of here.
Interviewer: But in the meantime, you had mentioned at the beginning of taking over this
particular job, you had all these guys making a mess of the place and trashing it. Were you
able to get them in line by threatening to evict them? Or did you and your sergeant manage
to get them to behave?
Veteran: Well, there’s other little things that we had up our sleeve. First of all, we changed the
order of discipline for things. So, I had room leaders that could discipline to a certain level. And
�25
then I had senior non-commissioned officers that could discipline to another level. Then I had a
first sergeant that disciplined and they stayed away from me because they knew that I was ugly
and I had an imagination that would kill a snake. (00:56:13)
Veteran: So, they didn’t—and it was hard for them to get an article 15. That was us
administrative. And I’ll tell you about that later. We used it once. Once. I was there two years
and we used it once? I had a couple hundred troops in there. And I went after that captain that
had that signal outfit. Went after them too. They had to listen to what we are doing. Haircuts had
to be done right. I moved a barber inside or they could go down the street. The one inside had to
take care of them and they’d get personal care and all that stuff. This was a facility. They called
them in Germany kasernes. It was a military compound. I had about 4 or 5 of those. The other
ones were all named and I kept certain things in those other places. Like trucks, I kept them one
place and other things, supplies at another. And the stuff at Rhineland airbase was all avionics
and things like that. So, what this compound had—new name to it. And it had been around for a
long time. I don’t know what that was but it was certainly not there when I left in 1962 and it
must have been installed after that. So, I went downtown to my buddies, my drinking buddies,
and I said, “What do you think?” They said, “I don’t know.” “Do you have anybody you like?”
“Oh, we like President Kennedy. We thought he was very good man.” I said, “I think you’re
right.” So, what we did: there was a—every concrete wall has a—an indentation of a certain size.
And what they do, they build a frame and then they have a flat piece and then they paint it and
put the letters on it and jam it in there and seal it. So, what we did: we used military intelligence.
It was gray and teal blue. That’s a nice, nice combination. Looks great. So, they built a sign for
me. (00:58:19)
�26
Veteran: It didn’t cost me anything, I don’t think. And they put that ‘Kennedy Kaserne’ and they
installed it. Now, we didn’t involve the mayor. When you have one of these things I found out,
and I will tell you about that in a minute, but we didn’t invite anybody. We didn’t invite the
commander, the general, down. We didn’t invite the leadership of Frankfurt, Germany. But we—
our drinking buddies came, my German drinking buddies, and some of the other guys that
worked for me. And we had a little ceremony. And we went in and we had soda and cupcakes or
something that somebody made or bought. And that’s how we celebrated that. Years later, I
found out from somebody who commanded the unit after me. Oh. So, he wrote that down and
put it outside his commanding officer building, how the building was named. What we failed to
do is…The unit command of the general was supposed to send to the USFE, the United States
Forces of Europe, a recommendation to name a compound the ‘Kennedy Kaserne.’ They would,
whatever, consider that and they’d discuss it with some of the ambassador people. and they’d
say, “Okay, well go ahead and ask Bonn.” And you’d send it to Bonn and they think it over.
Would that be compatible? And with our society, would they be receptive and whatever. And
then they send it back to USFE. USFE send it to the United States, they’d rule on it. I think
congress would give their blessing and then it would be sent over and a year and a half later, you
might get a sign. We did it in 3 weeks. (01:00:09)
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Now, the building was a mess. So, I asked these engineers to come into the building.
And these guys are craftsmen. I mean, if the building—something wrong with the window, they
could build a whole frame and everything, put that in there. So, they went through the building
and in 1969, $20,000 worth of—minimally—minimum damage in a 6-story building. It had 2
elevators, it had a laundromat that was just terrible. It was—it stank. It was terrible. And the on
�27
and on and on story. And downstairs in the basement, they redid what I call the ‘spook easy.’
They redid that, put in a nice bar. And the ceiling was made out of you know those egg cartons?
You turn them backwards and you paint them black? Well, that was a fire hazard. I had them rip
those out and it’s still black. It didn’t matter. There were white dots where they removed the egg
cartons so that was stars at night. So, we left it. And then, I had my bouncers. And then we
earned so much money from the ‘spook easy.’ And also, I had Coke machines throughout the
command. And I’d take all the money from it and I’d use 50% of it. So, Charlotte and I created a
travel company called ‘The Red Bull Express.’
Interviewer: Alright. We are now on session number 3 with Roger Talmadge who is
threatening to be the longest interview I ever record but so be it. We had followed your
military career into your second tour in Germany in the early 1970s and you had been
talking in the last piece about having taken money from the club that you ran in your
building to help finance what you referred to as a travel agency that you had labeled ‘The
Red Bull Express’ well before the caffeine laden drink that came later. Now, with that
you—was this something where you paid for the trips? Or you just organized them and the
servicemen who went on them had to pay themselves? (01:02:24)
Veteran: Oh, let me back up a little bit. First of all, as the commander—commanding officer of
the headquarters of the service company of the United States Army…I guess service command.
Anyway, whatever it was, the…It was administrative in nature. And so, I had court martial
authority. I also had the authority to be one of the—I could approve or disapprove promotions
even though they worked in staffs that were all over the place but they were on my morning
reports. And I had to keep that current. And I discovered that the men had very high IQs, very
low interest in serving in the combat side of the Army or any other service, but they wanted to
�28
avoid the draft. So, this whatever—I had a whole company full of draft dodgers assigned, like I
had mentioned before, in Berlin, all the way across bits and partials of Europe and into Asmara,
Turkey. And so, what I wanted to do is save them from themselves. And when I was first there as
an enlisted man myself in Europe, working in the intelligence service, I really did a lot of dumb
things. I still do but not to the line that I did then. So, what I wanted to do was give them an
alternative so they could find something that would attract them and they’d do that instead of
these other things, which we will sort of touch on a little bit. So, my wife and I created the travel
service. (01:04:16)
Veteran: And that’s the reason we embellished or created the ‘spook easy’ so people would—
they could have a drink and a nice little snack. Nothing big, not a restaurant style thing, and go to
bed after their service—their work shift completed. And there were other things that we did that
was kind of interesting for them and we went a step further. We even—to get their wives or
families and take them places. And we could use Army equipment. So, that means I could use an
Army bus. But these things with them, with the enlisted men primarily, we used 55 passenger
buses to go to places, and such like that. We—one of our favorite places was Amsterdam. And in
order to put one of these things together, we had to first know how to do this. Now, we didn’t
know; we had never done it before. But we knew that there must be some way to do it. So, one of
our advisors was Amexco. And that’s a travel agency in Europe and other parts of the world. and
they’re rather inexpensive and they’re thorough and they do their really excellent work in putting
together really safe and fun travel spots that are favorites. So, they coached us a little bit and
we’d go out and experiment with that. And then something come along and we’d trade from
buses to something else and then we kept on going. So, the—one of the first places we went to
was Amsterdam. And we went there…I forget when it was. It was in the fall of ’69 I think it was,
�29
or later. But the idea was we went to a bunch of restaurants, we went—we visited a diamond
factory. A diamond factory? My goodness. (01:06:22)
Veteran: And then we went to a place where they had the goats or whatever that produced the
milk and from that they made different kinds of cheese. Oh, that was away from Amsterdam but
nonetheless. So anyway, we got into the detail of a whole bunch of stuff and collected
information. Then we went back and we tried to work out, okay, what could we do to have a trip
and you needed a place to stay, so we worked out 2 or 3 alternatives. Mixed in 2 or 3 restaurants.
And then we mixed in the rivers and canals in Amsterdam. We connected them and we would
not rent 1 but 3 or 4 of those things and we’d set up—they would tell us how to—where to go
because we were going all the favorite places that they knew that the visitors and tourists like.
And some of them were not so tourist places too, which meant that that’s where they went with
their family. So, we tried that. We were going to make that up. We advertised—we never did this
before—we advertised in the organization and it was enlisted men. And when I ran out of
enlisted men, we’d go to the 87th Evacuation Hospital, or whatever it was called, in Frankfurt,
Germany. It was a full service hospital. And we’d pick up the rehab folks as long as they were
ambulatory, could feed themselves. And we’d baby them. And so, everybody paid something but
if a trip cost $400, they only paid $200. And the rest was paid by our Coke machines in our
various facilities in Germany. And then the Amexco would give us an idea how they negotiated
for better prices in the restaurants. So, the first trip we made to Amsterdam, the restaurant—it
was 26 entrees, just samplings. And so, you’d come in and you’d sample; you’re not having a
real meal. (01:08:40)
Veteran: So, you’re not paying for a real meal. But I mean to tell you, after you’ve sampled half
of 26, you are absolutely loaded. I mean, you have too much to eat. And then they’d have nice
�30
drinks. They could be alcohol or non-alcohol drinks. And very nicely done. And you’d have
enough food that nobody got bloated and that was important. So, alright, we did that and we tried
that. So, we tried that a couple of times. And then, we ended up with 2 buses going to
Amsterdam. Had to make sure everybody had their passports and all that administration was
taken care of. And everybody had money. And so, we continued that and that worked very, very
well. And so, then we tried other little trips. We took them to a lot of castles, some very
interesting places where events took place in antiquity. They thought that was wonderful. We
took them also to the Hague and other places. We got away from Amsterdam and some really
neat small, just very small fishing villages. And then we’d go from the fishing villages to the
northern portions of where they had a variety of corporations of factories that developed gouda
cheese and oh my goodness. And the samplings there. We didn’t have to go to lunch there
because we had all the samples they had. (01:10:19)
Veteran: And there was—the people were really glad because we were so interested. And the
young people they really took an interest in because young people were coming and asking a lot
of questions. And some of them had their wives and some of them didn’t. And so, that was
superb. So, that was motivating for us. Then we’d say, alright. We took them some more
different places around Germany. And not far distance; we didn’t cross any borders
because…Actually, the Russians didn’t like us going in the different parts of the world with—
their world—with bus loads of people with—
Interviewer: Down into Eastern Europe.
Veteran: Eastern Europe, that’s right.
�31
Interviewer: Now, did you ever travel to Switzerland or did you stay just in Germany and
the Netherlands?
Veteran: We could go into Switzerland just fine. We went into France but we didn’t go east
Europe at all because we had high security people. these people would have been worth a lot of
money if you get them to talk. And so, and they knew a lot. They were very well educated but
they are also very well entrenched in our systems and how our systems worked. So, we’d protect
them in every way but they needed to keep—get off the streets and get away from the bad stuff.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, then we continued to do that and then, one occasion, we set up—we bought two
German railroad passenger pulling cars. We rented those out and they hauled those on a regular
trip to where they took other visitors from around the world to France. Normandy was the area.
And they had the guys and their wives. We took some people from the hospital on that one.
(01:12:18)
Veteran: And we filled up the train. We wanted to fill up the train; that was our goal. And again,
they only paid 50% and the other percent was that Coca Cola company, or whatever we sold out
of there, vending machines. I called it—my boss the general said, “I don’t care what you do with
that thing. That sounds like a good thing, keeps them busy.” And our incident rates started
coming down significantly. Because they’d get in Frankfurt and they’d get in trouble with
something and it was just problematic and we didn’t want them to lose their security clearance
because some silly event that they got involved with. So, this took—this really helped. So, I
called the embassy and I talked to I don’t know who it was. I said, “We are sending 2 railroad
cars worth of these fine technicians.” I told him who we were so that made this sensitive; they’ve
�32
all got clearances and they need to be really looked after and watched and encouraged and kept
away from somebody that might want to give them a special trip—tour trip—to somewhere off
in the countryside. And sure enough, they—the embassy said, “We will have somebody to greet
them. Would that be alright?” I said, “Yes, yes if you can welcome them to Normandy, they’ll be
all ears, there will be a lot of questions. And I know you have places that have restaurants and
good food.” And the guy said, “Yeah, you heard right. Absolutely.” So, the guys went on the trip
and I was very pleased because they were safe on the railroad train. The folks were very attentive
to them. And they…But I don’t know what happened in Normandy. And so, they came back and
they were really excited. And these private first class and corporals and maybe a couple of
sergeants. And here they got off the train and there’s a 2-star general in uniform, “Welcome to
Normandy! I am so glad to see you! My, what a pleasure! What an honor.” And those guys just
about died because everybody thinks that—thought that as an enlisted man, I am just mincemeat.
(01:14:25)
Veteran: This guy thought—they thought they were all 4-star generals and he was trying to greet
them but he was really nice. He was a right guy. That’s probably why he was the attaché. Really
is. Probably why he was the attaché. So, we thought that was kind of neat. One of the things that
we did when we brought them to various restaurants also in Germany, we would go to every site.
If we were taking them to a series of castles, we would catch—the tour guides would tell us. We
didn’t exactly go through the whole tour. But we went to some places like Neuschwanstein and
places like that that everybody has heard about. And I lived in those places on and off for about 6
years. On and off 6 years when I was there in the ‘50s. So, I was familiar with them but I didn’t
have the detail. I knew that they were beautiful and well-appointed and the guys spoke several
languages so you never had a problem. So, what I tried to do is link—what Charlotte and I tried
�33
to do—is link the castle or the place that we were going with various restaurants. And we’d
investigate those restaurants and we tested the food. And we had a great big plaque, it was a 2foot by 2-foot plaque. And those that they plaster on one of their—one of their windows facing
the roadway as you approached the restaurant. And it was this 6-legged red bull and it said, “Red
bull approved,” in English and they were so proud of those things. We just leaved it at the
restaurant, we never ever came back. We’d drive by maybe a year later and that thing is still
hanging on the wall. And then it encouraged, they told us later, some people drive by that place,
Americans or English-speaking people, and they’d stop at that restaurant because they saw that
approval sign. (01:16:14)
Veteran: And that was nothing. That was something we just made up out of the blue. And it
wasn’t some nationally known…So, that worked out well and so we were so pleased. But we
worked very diligently with the police, the military police and the German police, because
anytime these guys got picked up, I had an arrangement where the lieutenant colonels, the
majors, the senior sergeants, and myself would pick them up off the street and we’d get them off
the street and get them settled down and out of the danger of compromised. And the Germans
understood it and the military police understood it. So, that helped us. As far as…I think—I
don’t know if I mentioned anything else about our vehicle safety record.
Interviewer: Yes, you did.
Veteran: Okay, so that helped that because it—they helped us there too because sometimes
they’d—if they had too much to drink, we didn’t want them driving and that was one of the
reasons why our report went way down and our incident rate with it because other things they’d
get involved with. They didn’t get in any fights. They’d get in the main railroad station and then
they would be very polite instead of being weird. And the soldiers would bring each other back
�34
sober or at least if they were funny, they’d help bring them back safely to their quarters. So, that
was self-service and they were busy doing some positive things. We introduced them to some
classical music. We sent them to the border, close to Czechoslovakia. There is some wonderful
small towns down there where the music—that was written, authored, and continued to play
there years now and centuries later from Wagner and beautiful stuff from Beethoven and all the
other—Mozart. All kinds of classical things and they weren’t—these guys were regular folks but
when they got into it, they got hooked. So, that worked out well and we spent a lot of time doing
that. (01:18:29)
Veteran: Now, the other stuff I was doing is absolutely boring. But we had a rebellion in our
headquarters. The military police rebelled because they worked long hours and sometimes
double shifts. You know, after an 8-hour shift, you run another one because you’re short or
something is happening and they were not treated with respect. And the general wanted that: he
wanted everyone to be respect. You know, find out what was going on. And so, one evening they
were—I was tipped off they were meeting in the conference room where the officers and they’d
have their officers have meetings for the staff. So, I walked in, I took my jacket off and said, “I
am Roger. What’s your name? I want to know what’s going on.” And at first, they were scared,
they didn’t know if they should run. And they told me what was going on. It was small stuff.
Small stuff that communicated, you know, you are valuable and we need you and you’re not
doing what I am doing because you do it and you’re called to do it and you’re trained and I am
not. and that—I could have been the lieutenant colonel saying that, I could have been one of the
majors, I could have been a command soldier major. But they needed these guys to do work well
and not be a forgotten entity because they were administrators and they are low grade. Well, that
spooled into some really great things. I mean, I bump into them even now and it’s still Roger but
�35
we respect each other. But they really looked after me too. I mean, there is nothing I couldn’t
need. My car messed up and so I took it to one of my kasernes and my supply sergeant, who used
to go with us on these trips to get them ready, he got some guys together and they rebuilt my ’67
Chevrolet motor and it ran well. (01:20:25)
Veteran: And then it blew up so I got rid of it and got a new one, a Volkswagen bus. But they
were trying to help out and so I paid for all the parts and I tried to pay them. They wouldn’t have
it; they were insulted that I would even dare and suggest such a thing. So, I had to move our—I
was told I had to move quickly in June or July of 1971. And they wanted to send me back to the
United States to do some work in the Pentagon because of my background training in computer
science. And I told them that we were moving our headquarters from Frankfurt, Germany to
Augsburg because they were consolidating some of the Army Security Agency assets and they
wanted to have a composite site that would function for all of your—from that location. And it
had lots of ground around it to facilitate this. And what I found out, okay, when they lost $50,000
worth of equipment and they had a poor job of keeping up with it, I had everything marked and I
had it barcoded so if it got lost and anybody else got it, we could find it. I did that to the office
too because those clever people, they thought just because I was sleeping in this office building
across the street, I’d go into one office and inventory it and then the next day, they knew the next
office to be inventoried was coming up. So, when I left the place, they would move the stuff over
here to the other place. And so, I was inventorying the same stuff the next day. So, what we did,
we took a—I would still have my hands on that computer outfit so I worked up a barcode system
for everything. I went back and I’d start all over again. And all of a sudden, the furniture wasn’t
moving and we found out where the holes were. (01:22:31)
�36
Veteran: Once we got that done, then we started working on some other smaller equipment,
which was very vital to our operation and got that done. And then what we wanted to do is then
as we got ready to go to Augsburg, we put them in our trucks. And I had a guy that had a sheet
that—inventory of what’s going on, what series of barcodes went into that vehicle. And they
wanted to ship me out of the place. I said, “No, I can’t do it. I am not going. I am helping the
general.” And the people in Washington D.C. and the Army Security Agency headquarters said,
“Well, let’s retire him if he doesn’t want to go to the assignment we’ve got for him.” So, the
general got online and says, “Blow it out your backside. We got to move and we got to move
which makes sense.” Because you take this truck and you unload it in in an orderly fashion. You
don’t lose anything and your inventory is up and you have it right here and you can double check
it. And then you come back to Frankfurt and you load another truck or railroad car. It doesn’t
matter. But there’s always a sergeant there that’s going to inventory that stuff. So, we stayed for
that and then I left. In the meantime, some things changed. I got ahold of my military intelligence
branch and I said, “They are making me available.” They sent me to Vietnam a second tour. And
so, I arrived in Vietnam I think in July of 1971.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you got yourself out of the Pentagon assignment entirely at that
point? (01:24:14)
Veteran: That’s the second time I did it. First time was to go to Germany. Second time was to go
anywhere.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It didn’t matter.
�37
Interviewer: Alright. Now, but they still needed people…I mean, ’71 they are drawing
down. Vietnamization is going on but they needed people with your kind of specialization?
Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, they needed—they were looking for people to work it. I found out later I didn’t
go to a combat unit. I figured I would. I didn’t go. I was wearing my military intelligence brass. I
was getting into military intelligence, if you will, direct or unassigned assignment. And the
unassigned assignment was these are round out assignments, management assignments out of the
normal course of your travel or career development. So, that’s what this was.
Interviewer: Okay. Were you still a major at this point? Or you—
Veteran: Yeah, yeah, I just made major. I made major after five and a half years being a
lieutenant, second lieutenant.
Interviewer: Okay, because you were a major back when you met your wife, right? I think
that was—
Veteran: I had just been promoted in October of ’58. I was promoted to major and I met her in
December.
Interviewer: ’68. ’68.
Veteran: ’68.
Interviewer: Yep. Okay,
Veteran: ’68.
Interviewer: There we go. Okay. Alright, so now what does—you’re going to Vietnam.
What does your wife do?
�38
Veteran: That was a problem because we still had the—we had 4 children then. Andrew was
born the first of our 4 boys. And I still had a son and 2 daughters from the first marriage. I had
custody of the children and my wife signed up to raise them. So, we coordinated with the Army
and what the Army did is they stationed her in Salina, Kansas, which was at a former B-49
bomber shaped…No, what’s…Anyway—
Interviewer: Strategic Air Command? Or…? (01:26:21)
Veteran: Yeah, that. Thank you. Strategic Air Command site. And it was still operational for
training purposes. In other words, people would come in and use it and leave. But there was no—
there was nothing there. Nothing in the hangars. So, they were put in a home, a nice home for the
family, and a nice community. She got in with the ladies and we knew the base commander at
that site was Lieutenant Colonel Prince and we knew him from Germany because he counseled
us with the family because he knew the situation, why I was there early with her and I wanted to
make sure that we had counseling for the children and ourselves as we needed it. So, I let him
know…I let him know that I am leaving and he said, “Okay. That’s good and we will take care
of them like we did in Germany.” And so, they knew him; that was easy. And so, she set up
housekeeping. I purchased—I took my…I bought a brand new 1971 Chevy station wagon and
the reason I am saying that: I wanted her to have some good transportation. And there’s a little
story behind that that will come back later. Okay, so she had a new car and the place was superb.
The schools were fine also. So then, I departed for Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright. And now, where are you sent to in Vietnam? (01:28:03)
Veteran: I am sent to Saigon itself. And I was part of the…it was the Army’s major command in
that area for Vietnam and…
�39
Interviewer: Well, there’s the MACV, Military Assistance—MACV: Military Assistance
Command Vietnam. That’s the main operation.
Veteran: That’s the over—
Interviewer: That’s the overall one, yeah.
Veteran: That’s it. And then specifically, I was assigned to the embassy and I worked in U-S-AI-D, USAID: United States America—
Interviewer: Agency for International Development.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was in facility two. And I was in the management directory. My boss was a
retired brigadier. I think he was in armor. And—but he was a—one of the embassy—had an
embassy rating, whatever grade, I don’t know what it was. What it would have been—it’d have
been a high level, a senior officer within the embassy complex. And our job was to fund, find
funding, or at least get budgets, work with budgets, in such a way that everything was
accountable. So, we could—whatever monies the embassy received and if it was in an area of
construction, we could see what was allocated. And allocated and follow the trail from beginning
to end and be able to report on that in a sensible way. That means that the director would go to
the upline with those reports, maybe using one of us as the source. Of course, we went on—we
visited the sites sometimes when necessary. So, we built field hospitals and those field hospitals
were kind of unique in a sense that they weren’t manned by American personnel. They came
�40
from Australia. Australia sent in military personnel: surgeons and doctors and nurses and all
kinds of things. (01:30:23)
Veteran: And but they didn’t bring any guns. And so, they got in there so we traveled around,
we’d visit those hospitals as they were operating and give a report on that. So, the money was
used to pay for that but also to run, to operate the thing later on. Now, we also a lot of equipment
came in there and we wanted to see it operational. And if something wasn’t operational, we
wanted to replace it if it couldn’t be repaired. So, it would be state of the art and operational. And
we had people come in there from Cambodia, everywhere, Laos, different places. They would
come in. That was where they could walk in or somehow get into our area of Vietnam, which
would have been III Corps, which is the Saigon complex. And of course, we took care of the
babies and any surgery from the folks that were living in that general area. I think if somebody
were even the enemy that got hurt or banged up or torn up or whatever, they would try to help
them and transfer them to where the next place they should go as they regained their health. So,
today it was one of those efforts that it was inclusive instead of exclusive and it also was wellrounded with the proper attitude towards life. And we liked that. We’d build airfields, we’d build
secure compounds for units to operate their logistics function. We also paid for Air America.
Interviewer: Can you explain what that was? I know what that was but can you explain
what that was. (01:32:12)
Veteran: Well, we had two kinds of airplanes. We had the silver kind to travel around the
countryside and they were our day time operation and they were kind of out in the open but they
handled our essential travel of our embassy personnel, military personnel, as the embassy
coordinated to accomplish anything within the, I guess you could say, Asian part of the world.
The black aircraft were cargo and personnel carriers and they went to unexplained places at night
�41
and the next day they’d come back at night and we cleaned them up—had them cleaned up—and
they were parked mostly at the Tan Son Nhut Air Base, which is just on the outskirts of…
Interviewer: Saigon.
Veteran: Saigon. I lived in two places. The first place I lived was in 5 oceans. It was a bachelor
hotel, if you will. And we were contiguous to an outdoor shopping center for Vietnamese. And
it’s amazing who came in there. We—I don’t know who, but it is still there today. And all kinds
of materials would come in there and the reason why it was important to us: because it was a real
interesting and easy place for them to get somebody in there that could blow something up. And
maybe disturb the Vietnamese but mostly disturb us. So, we had security on our facilities that
was very strong. It was American as well as the Vietnamese security forces. And in this complex
marketing area, we had them there too. And we had them in these little towers that didn’t rise but
maybe a half a story and they were strategically located throughout the entire shopping center
area. (01:34:22)
Veteran: And at night, I know when I was on duty, I really thought that some of those guys were
sleeping so I’d throw rocks at those tin roof things and they’d make a horrible noise and I’d hear
some guy, “Ahhh!” falling out of his chair. I don’t know if he was sleeping but I wasn’t going to
let him sleep because that was dangerous. And we had other hotels that didn’t have that kind of
connection so their security was more direct and evolvable. And then later on, I was moved out
to near Tan Son Nhut, near the air base, so that security was a change We had security around
our hotel but we were also within blocks of the security that was around that Tan Son Nhut. And
that was important to us likewise. My buddy and I had earned some extra money. I kept—I sent
all my money home. So, I earned some extra money running the movie house at night and that’s
how I lived off the month. So, if I didn’t—if I ran out of money, well I didn’t eat anything. And I
�42
liked those little twisty cigars. I smoked one of those once in a while. The food was excellent.
We had it in different places and it was cooked by a mixed staff but I think they did a really
superb job. And so, that was kind of neat how that worked.
Interviewer: So, what’s the time span when you were there? So, July, ’71 to July, ’72?
Or…? (01:36:03)
Veteran: I was there from July, ’71 to July, ’72.
Interviewer: Okay. So, one-year tour. Okay. Now, a variety of things happened during that
time span, including the Easter Offensive in ’72. I think things had been relatively quiet
militarily much of ’71. No big campaigns except for Lam Son 719 in the north. But did
you—did things stay pretty much the same in terms of how you observed the way the war
was going or the way your job worked? Or did you notice changes over time?
Veteran: There were changes and they were predictable. We just didn’t know where. We knew
that when the New Year came and Tet, translate that into a time where the Orient is in some kind
of a mode of expansion and assuring themselves and in this case, they’d start…They’d start huge
amounts of personnel in the various areas, concentrated, and it had been happening everywhere. I
mean, I was over there ’66 when it’s the turn of the years, around January time frame. And they
came—they were coming over the border in different places and coming at us. And other places
were kind of blank. So, they had concentrations. And over the years ’67, ’68, almost decimated
the country. All the beautiful, wonderful religious architecture and other things that made
Vietnam very unique were destroyed. And then in ’69 and ’70 and ’71, and then I got in there
after that in July. But that—certainly in January and February, hear they come again. And they
were coming out of—this time, they were coming pretty heavy over the DMZ so they were
�43
coming out of North Vietnam, into South Vietnam and instead of 2 or 3, they had more troops to
help them. And also, they came across at some time around that time or after with tanks, T-76s.
Interviewer: Well, that was a big offensive in the spring, so it would have been after Tet.
There I mean—they call it the Easter Offensive because it is when it happened. And
that’s— (01:38:32)
Veteran: March. March or April.
Interviewer: Yeah. And they came in with heavy force, which was really something new, in
part because the American presence was a lot lighter than it used to be.
Veteran: That’s right. And also, it made our protection of these orphanages vulnerable. Now, the
Catholic Relief Society? We funded them. We gave them everything they needed. They needed a
truck, a car, whatever, vehicles, food, anything, we provided. We didn’t provide them any real
security. They might have had maybe one or two folks there or maybe more. I am not sure about
that but I do know that those are important to us and we had them marked and we would debrief
with their leadership and I was part of that. It was about that time, about March or April, that I
became the director of refugee operations for the embassy. And what they did, because of us
military, whenever the got short, somebody transferred out because I am sure it was over after,
whatever, 3 years while we would be the interim. We would cover the position as long as we
were supported by our upline. And so, our support said, “Okay, let him do it.” And the access I
had to how that system worked was excellent so I got some good information, in other words.
And I found out that these forces were going into those orphanages and they’d kill the men and
they’d ravage the moms and they were running the children of various ages. And they came
from—we don’t know who their daddies were but some of them were Americans. (01:40:27)
�44
Veteran: And so, that’s all you could tell them, you could know that they are. And nonetheless,
they were run into the jungle and tigers would eat them. I found that out my first tour, when you
get out in the jungle. So, we put two large Marine units. This is a holding force; you couldn’t
stop them. But there is a holding force and then put landing ship, tanks, ships on the beach and
emptied out I don’t know how many orphanages but as many as we can. We got the nuns, we got
the priests, and everybody out. And then, we tracked the Marines as best we could and took those
vessels and came down the coast of South Vietnam and into up the river in Saigon itself. And
then, we confiscated all of the state department housing. And everybody became foster parents,
whether they needed to or not. And so, we had C-130s that could combat aircraft coming in from
the west coast of America with powder and baby wipes and diapers and all kinds of stuff. And
also, our hospital got support. We needed support because some of those children were ill. And
so, that got them stabilized. Basically, that’s what happened. Meantime, through the embassy,
they were able to negotiate with 7 adoption agencies from Oregon to the southern tip of
California and they geared up. I mean, I don’t know what they did but they threw money at those
agencies and people and then we loaded our aircraft up and we’d fly in with whatever supplies
for Vietnam and fly the babies out. And they had people on board to keep them stable and
alright. (01:42:27)
Veteran: And as far as I know, all 2500 of them made it to the states safely and they are in this
country in 3 generations right now. Now, something happened in that tour too, which changed
my life. About that time, while that was going on, my former spouse had sent her husband over
to where we were living in Salina, Kansas, to the air base, and convinced my wife that my
former spouse, their mother of the 3 children—my son and 2 daughters—was there and she was
just feeling not too…She had a headache or something but he was going to pick them up and
�45
take them down to visit mom and bring them right back. And we had such altercations with her
and her new husband and he was having trouble with her anyway and he’d asked me for my help
and I hung up on him. I wouldn’t talk to him. I didn’t—I wasn’t nasty and saying, “Well, shame
on you.” So anyway, the sheriff came over to the house and took a statement from him that yes,
she’s downtown and take her to visit and bring her back this afternoon. Well, this afternoon
arrived, evening arrived, the next day arrived…The sheriff was livid and he put an APB out for
those children. And he kept close to them and it was only the husband that was with the children
and he was rather forceful with him. And he only got the girls. The son was in school somewhere
else in Arkansas or Oklahoma. (01:44:17)
Veteran: And so, they got into Baltimore and we found out where they lived and we got my
attorney and the authorities there got ahold of one of the Baltimore County police. They went to
the house and knocked on the door and they were told, “Oh, well we got permission.” “Oh,
okay.” And they walked away. My wife was getting ahold of me. My wife was thinking I am
going to divorce her. She lost—she weighs normally 125 or 28 pounds, she got down to 90
pounds. My—our baby Andrew was throwing up all the time; it was such stress in the house. So,
the Red Cross called me home. The commanding general that I was working under allowed me
to use his private phone to call home every night. He wanted to get a report every morning. And
sometimes, the operators would call up and “What are you using official lines for? I am going to
report you. You’re talking trouble.” They didn’t know what I was doing. And I said, “Fine. Make
sure you spell my name right but here’s the contact for this phone.” And they said, “Well, we
know that.” And I hung up on it. So anyway, I got home and, you know, we had a…it was a
crying welcome, I’ll tell you that. And so, somebody babysitted our son, because that’s all we
had in the house, and my wife and I traveled 1500 miles. Made a phone call in to find out where
�46
they were and it was a confirmation phone call. My daughter called the house to talk to my wife
and when she was on the phone, the mother came and slapped her and took the phone away so
we knew that we had a confirmation they might be in that house that they called out of. Didn’t
have caller ID but you could use some other ways of getting that information.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:46:19)
Veteran: So, we drove around, we found the house that night and then we drove around. It was a
holiday so the next day was Monday and then after that it was Tuesday, which schools were
open, and we found the elementary school they ought to go to. We weren’t sure. So, what I did: I
dressed her up as a house wife and I put big curlers in her hair and she had a set of—she had a
gown on, a nightie—a nightgown—and a coat because it was November; it was cold. And I was
down the hill with the engine running, that same Chevrolet. So, and what’s interesting when you
run an operation like this, people don’t pay attention to the unusual and the usual. She looked
like everybody else. The only thing is, she was walking away from the school with the girls
instead of towards the school with the girls and nobody noticed it for three and a half hours. And
that’s how we have done some other little operations like that when I was over there in the ‘50s.
When different things would happen, people wouldn’t understand. So now, I was trained to do
that.
Interviewer: So, why wouldn’t the authorities help you? I mean, if you have been
established, shouldn’t they know that the permission thing was a lie? Or wouldn’t they
have been told that when they had gone back, and gotten them?
Veteran: The judge in Baltimore County didn’t care.
Interviewer: Oh.
�47
Veteran: And later on, when I still had the children and I got the girls back, he cut a court order
that I would pay…I would pay child support to them. So, I was persona non grata in the state of
Maryland, starting in 1972 and it stayed that way for a while. So anyway, so we got her back.
We—I got into Pennsylvania and I phoned Salina, Kansas to my attorney and got a bench order
that protected me. (01:48:25)
Veteran: I wasn’t doing—it wasn’t illegal and nobody was hurt and any of that stuff. Got them
back home and it was very difficult. I mean, my older of the two daughters was wetting the bed
and all that kind of stuff and really messed up psychologically and that’s where I got, again, we
talked to Colonel Prince, because he knew us already. And when we were in Frankfurt so now
that was a—so, he could attest to before and after. And so, he showed up in a court room. So,
after that—and of course the police were told it was okay and they did nothing and yet it was
civil authority against a civil authority and so we were stuck with that. So, we got her home, got
them home, and Colonel Prince sent over to me, to us, a male Army nurse who was a counselor,
an advisor. Psychologist. And Willis Succorto, Captain Willis Succorto. And I was desperate. I
didn’t have any answers. I was mad, I was furious. And I didn’t know what to do with that either.
I had responsibilities and I had to leave the next day. I couldn’t stay home to protect my family.
So, this guy was going to do two things: protect the family but, also, he was going to go through
some kind of a process that would help them get stable again. And then also, the son was in
Oklahoma? To protect him. (01:50:09)
Veteran: We didn’t want any shenanigans with that either. So, all that was set up. And then what
he did: he gave me a New Testament. He was a Gideon. I didn’t know that and he wrote in it.
And I’d say, “Oh, I need one of those.” So, he wrote his name, to me, and he signed it his name
�48
and the date was 18, November, 1970…in that case, it was ’71. It was before that when we
evacuated the babies.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And so, I got in the plane the next day and the 3 things you do on an 18-hour flight: you
either sleep, read the testament, or eat. And that’s what I did. I got into Saigon and I went back to
work and it was a mess and I still had this connectivity using the general’s phone just to check up
once in a while. I didn’t have to do it every day anymore. And so, I finished up with…He said
start in chapter—it started with page 179. It’s the book of John. I didn’t know where it was. So, I
finished that. I didn’t know what to do with that. And you or nobody else were there to tell me
what do I do next. Well, I went to the front of the book and that’s Matthew. And I went and I
read the book of Matthew slowly. I was reading it for myself. I had heard it before. I had been to
church many times but I knew my heart and I wasn’t good enough. And all these wonderful
people around me? They are good people but I have a dark heart so I just never made any
decision ever. Ever. Never. I’ve been in a synagogue, I have been in a Catholic church, I’ve been
in Protestant churches in University City. Nothing. So, read the book of Matthew and I was
startled to note that Matthew must have known John because a couple things in there are the
same. That was interesting. So, I kept reading and I got in the book of Mark. And the book of
Mark I found out is just like this device here. It takes pictures, just snapshots, of Jesus doing
stuff. He was busy. And there was no—it didn’t—it had no real explanation. (01:52:20)
Veteran: Something would happen and you could see it but there was no…it didn’t have any
words there to embellish it. So, I went through that and I get into chapter 15 and they already
crucified him. They had him hanging on the cross and he was bleeding and he was dying and he
gave up the ghost. And the centurion who was also a soldier that rose from the ranks, now I
�49
could relate to that, and he was in charge of the cohort or the detachment of this very important
crucifixion. Now, I didn’t crucify anybody but I came out of nowhere, out of the bottom, and
here I am a major. And I could have…Be—I had already been in charge of hundreds and worth
hundreds of millions of dollars in all that equipment and stuff and I thought hmm…And he said,
“This truly is the son of God.” So, I got on my knees on the 25th of November, 1971. I said,
“Lord, I can’t handle this. I can’t do it.” So, I came to the end of myself in 1971, November the
25th. And I have not been the same since. And I am still in basic training. So, I let my wife know.
She was thrilled. She thought I was a believer already because I was already a nice guy. Nice guy
doesn’t get you anything. Okay, they were pleased with that. And so, the embassy people took
me into their—under their wing because they do have things that go on on Sunday and other
things that go on and they got me involved. And so, I’d began to learn to read that Bible. Then
I—okay, so, then I went through the—moving the babies and there was some other things that
we did that were very helpful to local communities. Because I had lived with the Montagnards
on and off for weeks. (01:54:24)
Veteran: We were a combat unit and so we tried to do some things, again, leaving the door open.
One of the things that we did, and this sounds—this is wild. Ben…what was it? Uncle Ben’s
brown rice. Whatever you call that stuff. We—the folks planted that in our agricultural programs
and we tested it and then we proliferated that as much as we could across South Vietnam. And
for the first time, towards the end of my…before I went home in 1972, we became self-sufficient
enough to export rice and feed all of North Vietnam. And that broke our hearts when they came
down and started destroying those paddy fields. We got that far and that was excellent. In other
words, we were able to get—the money we had we didn’t have to go in and ask for seconds. We
used what we had well and had leftover because some of the stuff was really beginning to work.
�50
Our construction work was caught up. We had hospitals that were all functional. Everybody was
basically safe.
Interviewer: Now, as you were engaging in these various projects in different parts of
Vietnam, now are you dealing with local South Vietnamese authorities as you did this? Or
did you just stick with the Americans?
Veteran: No, I worked with the Americans and did not—I got reports from the field or from the
whoever the site contact was but I didn’t speak. I had somebody with me as a driver but not—I
didn’t have an interpreter with me anymore. I was on my own. And so, I traveled different places
and we’d go into a village and didn’t know anything in it. And so, whoever was there would take
us down to some Vietnamese restaurant. I don’t know what I ate. I might have eaten snake and
wouldn’t have known it. But I knew I was afraid of that stuff so I ate a lot of things that were
boiled and it was wholesome. It tasted great but it—I made sure it didn’t have any meat in it
because I don’t know what it was. I wasn’t going to do something that was going to get me.
(01:56:52)
Interviewer: Alright. Because the part of—I guess part of what I was interested in was I
mean there were substantial problems with corruption in the South Vietnamese regime and
with what happened to funds that the Americans sent over and where they went and what
happened to them. And so, I was kind of curious: were you aware of that kind of thing? Or
was the nature of your operation different so it wasn’t an issue?
Veteran: We were sensitive to it, not really aware of it in the sense that we caught that stuff
going on. But the people we contacted and we looked at the product that was laid down or raised
up, whichever. Or we’d get…I didn’t go to any rice paddy fields but we got these field
�51
photographs from our sources and we put in X and got Y plus out of it. So, we didn’t have to put
in X again. That kind of stuff. And so, those reports were positive. And yeah, I had very little
contact with the Vietnamese. I stayed away from downtown because a lot of our guys went
downtown for entertainment or whatever, food and stuff. And the places would get blown up.
(01:58:13)
Veteran: And they came—they retook—we hauled—they were hauled out in body bags right
through Tan Son Nhut. And so, we stayed away from that. One night we went over to Tan Son
Nhut to watch a movie. One of these adventure films that were being sent around a few times. I
forget what it was. It was a motorcycle movie. It was kind of fun to watch that. And doggone it,
those idiots hit the airfield with 120-millimeter mortars. We had to run. Never did get—we never
got a raincheck on that.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you have a sense of how the larger war was going? Are we winning,
losing, treading water? Or were you not even thinking about that?
Veteran: Wasn’t thinking about it but kept an eye on it in the sense that when they were dropping
B-52—making an arc-like raid in the mountains around us, we knew that there was problems.
And that—but that was recurring. didn’t know what the build up was looking like but it was
coming. And we were very concerned about that. But we also had some modicum of assurance
that, well, just keep busy and you’ll be fine. So, I played…My roommate and I played tennis.
And so, we didn’t have any weapons except a tennis racquet. No pistol, nothing. And so, we just
got through the day. We ate and did the things you did. You got up early and you worked all day,
about 10, 12, 13, 14 hours a day. and then we took an hour or two and we played tennis with the
popular forces, these 15 and 16 year-olds, young men that would have been equivalent to our
junior National Guardsmen. And they were trained. (02:00:10)
�52
Veteran: They were trained. They were sharp, they were fast. They had a great smile. A lot of
them spoke English. To me, they were a good skillset bunch. And they were in Saigon itself and
I am sure that they would have connected with any military unit, Vietnamese unit, they needed to
if they needed them. But we put the word out to the—we also played tennis with the president’s
helicopter pilots. All 4 of them. And then we put the news out: do you tell the president that
these guys, and you have their names, you know we go down here every afternoon and we
played tennis with them. You put their names down and make sure that they never, ever become
ambassadors for this country. And of course, they asked us why. And they knew the answer but
the answer was this: they never let us win. We’d get ahead and they’d duck their heads down and
feel bad. They said, “Oh, we are losing.” And then they’d just tear us up and be, you know, like
whatever it was and we were zero. But we did it a whole year, that. A whole year of that.
Anyway…
Interviewer: Okay. Now, as a large-scale offensive was going on in early ’72, was there
some kind of concern that this might be it? Or things were going to go south? Or...?
Veteran: As the director of a refugee operation, I was very concerned with what happens with the
DMZ. They would come across a large group. I don’t know if it was two or three divisions and
that’s a large group.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That’s what I was—we were facing in the Ia Drang Valley in ’65. And that—those
three didn’t do so well. But we hadn’t been bombing anything in the North Vietnam. Again, our
numbers were beginning to drop. My unit pulled out in ’71. My complete division; all 15-16
�53
thousand of them were gone. And so, I—that’s probably why I didn’t go back to them. Plus, I
was an MI officer on an assignment, a management assignment. (02:02:27)
Veteran: I also had my security clearances so I was aware. I was given—I had privy to
information so when we built something or we supplied something, we knew how to handle it
because it was classified for those silver or those black aircraft at Tan Son Nhut. And the
equipment that went on board. Or the people that went on board.
Interviewer: Alright. (02:02:56)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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TalmadgeR2152V3
Creator
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Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
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2017-09
Title
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 3), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge started college at the University of Maryland in the fall of 1967. He attended college while also working at Fort Holabird. Roger was promoted to major in 1968. He graduated with his bachelor’s degree in computer science in June 1969. Roger was then transferred to Frankfurt, Germany in 1969 to take charge of Army Security there. He remained in Germany until July 1971. Roger and his wife Charlotte created a travel company while in Germany that they called ‘The Red Bull Express.’ They traveled throughout Europe with soldiers and their families via the travel agency. Roger was sent to do a second tour in Vietnam in July 1971. He was stationed in Saigon, Vietnam and worked at the United States Agency for International Development in management. He left Vietnam in July 1972. While in Vietnam, he was engaged in various projects throughout the country, including rescuing Vietnamese orphans during an Easter offensive early in 1972.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/392ee2a0b0be54183b13f0bccd7ccebe.mp4
f8c2d24eed3cce4b2ee2c9ee12894923
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69c4b3a443f63ae36508c89e470a016e.pdf
74bc9b4eb3293c2d81320fb1a687c5ee
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: Alright, now we have gotten in your story—in your tour in Vietnam—in ’71’72 and we talked about a variety of your activities there. And rescuing orphans at the time
of the Easter Offensive early in the year. What else would you like to add on that?
Veteran: Well, as I was departing, I did discover I didn’t know who was on the ground but I
found out in later years who it was but I did find out that the Air Force, the 2-star Air Force
general—a commanding general for Air Forces in that part of the world. It was the…I guess you
call it Asian Air Force defense system or…But anyway, he was relieved because he ran bombing
interdiction runs into—over the DMZ, into North Vietnam, and destroyed a lot of those fuel
bladders. And I think that slowed down the assault of those T-76 Soviet tanks, amphibious tanks,
very effective tank, but couldn’t stand up against our light anti-tank weapon. But anyway, that
was a travesty because he saved a lot of American lives.
Interviewer: And then there was always that tension of what one could and couldn’t do.
and by this time, there were an awful lot of political handcuffs on military operations, even
more than earlier, because the country itself was essentially disengaging by then.
Veteran: That’s right.
�2
Interviewer: Okay. And then, anything else that kind of stands out in your memory about
that second tour in Vietnam?
Veteran: No, not really.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so now you get into the middle of ’72. The offensive was
stopped and they did manage to hold on. There were some parts of the country that were
occupied and weren’t regained but they did push all the way back up to the DMZ, around
Quang Tri. Okay, so things were stabilized, at least for the time being, by the time you left.
Okay. So, when you come back, now what do you do? (00:02:09)
Veteran: Well, I picked up my family. I had orders, a couple things, and I was transferred to the
Army’s military family…what? No, not military family—college for general and staff officer
development. So, I was—that was me. I got there in August of 1970…
Interviewer: ’72 now.
Veteran: …2. And it was basically a year long.
Interviewer: And where is that college?
Veteran: That’s in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Still there today.
Interviewer: Yep. Alright. Now, was this part of a stepping stone to become a colonel or
lieutenant colonel? Or was this just…?
Veteran: It was a progression towards—for further assignment and evaluation to be potential—
did you have potential to be promoted. And so, and yes indeed. So, when I got there, I got in my
class. The class was a—there was 50 of us in each class. I think that’s correct. And we had
broken down into 4 groups. Somehow, they do that with that number. And so, we stuck together
�3
as sort of a team. And then you had within the team, you had sub-teams. So, you could say that
was a company with 4 platoons or that was whatever you want to call it with 4 elements to it.
And I think we had majors and lieutenant colonels in that class. And that was fine. Just about
everybody was a Vietnamese… Vietnam experience. There might have been one or two Korean.
I can’t remember. And so, they wanted to do things right. They wanted to tidy in and make us a
family. Not only a network of officers that could cooperate, work together in small groups. We
didn’t know that part. We knew that they were going to train us in something. And we weren’t
lined up in a regular schoolhouse formation. (00:04:27)
Veteran: And so, that went by and began to include the families in whatever we did socially. So,
we were all—pretty much all—living on facility. Had built some new housing. It was not the old
barracks. It was new barracks, in other words, for military families, not just the barrack kind of
configuration. So, I became a social…the—whatever you want to call it—chief of social
operations and activities. And so, we had some experience in that travel agency so here we have
another opportunity based on our past experience that my wife and I could work on. And we
tried to have something for the families, the students and the families, together or separately
throughout the year. So, we got started on that and there was other aspects that needed to be done
too. And so, those—whoever—each one of those elements had their own little leader. So, that’s
how we started. And then, we would…I guess our senior person was a class leader and so he
would have to report to the Command General Staff College cadre or commandant if the
commandant was interested, a 1-star, of what we were doing in all these areas to improve the
social side of it. They don’t want to lack that because you need to keep that. And certainly, that
would play into—as they were assigned to command and staff positions around the world, to be
that orientated towards having that building rapport side of the house. (00:06:26)
�4
Veteran: So, that turned out to be an adventure. One of the first things we did as an icebreaker:
traveled down to Kansas City and got ahold of their party boat and put about 100 people on
that—100 or 200. And rented the whole thing; everything. And then, so we planned that out and
advertised it and everybody signed up for it. All—couldn’t bring the children. You just had to
figure that out yourself. So, you had to get babysitters. We ended up with about 35 to 37 carloads
for all of us. And that was—some of them were vans jammed and all kinds of things. And so, we
got that ready and then I went to the military police and I said, “You know, we are going to leave
at a time when the traffic is kind of tough right on the Fort—military fort. We are going to have
to get out of here. So, I’d appreciate it if you’d just get that arranged.” Then I got ahold of the
Leavenworth city police and I said, “You know, we are going to be coming out of there and we
are going to hang up all your lights.” And they said, “Where are you going?” I told them. And
they said, “Oh, we know exactly where that is. Let me get back to you.” Alright so we get to
maybe a week later. They told me, “We got you covered. So, all’s you do is you come out of the
school parking lot. You got an assembly or something. Come out of the school parking lot and
you’ll have an escort to the boat.” (00:08:17)
Veteran: So, the military police were on the back end of that thing and on the front of that thing.
I had my two-way walkie talkie. You know, I figured I am going to get in here and talk. I had to
lead. I was in the lead car and the guy in the back was going to—I was going to talk to. It didn’t
even work. It didn’t work. It was a piece of junk. It wasn’t that stuff I was using in Vietnam. So
anyway, so we took off and the military police took us into—out onto the main road that comes
out of the post. And you make a left turn and you are in Leavenworth city. And the city police
picked us up there. And we made a right turn and came down alongside the river into Lansing,
Kansas. And they dropped off and the Lansing police took us down to the next place and the
�5
state police picked us up over there and crossed over here. And we finally got there and they had
us set up. They had a large parking area so we rolled into the parking area. And the only thing
they cautioned us: now you are getting on a party boat—you’re going to have a good time, good
food, good drinks…no drinking and driving. No drinking and driving. Gotcha. So, we got
onboard and it was a nice icebreaker. Folks got to know each other. Some of them were new. We
had some guys that were several—in a number of classes at the college at the same time. And
then, so they could get—they reacquainted themselves and we got close to each other and spent
most of the time with our little group. But still, knew some other people. And that was really,
really positive. But those other people were—they sort of showed up but it was mainly for our
folks. And but that helped us a great deal and also built some bridges for future engage—
activities. (00:10:14)
Veteran: So, that was a good start. And then the idea is when you do something like that, that
big, you got to outdo yourself the next time. Well, we had some smaller things that weren’t quite
as robust and didn’t stir up the place. We kept them on the facility or we would move it some
place and let them infiltrate. In other words, leave their house and meet us over in such and such.
So, we had a couple of things like that going on in the Leavenworth greater area. And also,
shopping opportunities. Set them up and possibly get them to discounts. And one of the things
that we had, which was tradition for the Command General Staff College, we would have dads’
night out shopping alone, just before Christmas. And this turned out to be a real challenge. I had
nothing to do with that but I was falling in line with advertising it and telling them where to go
and there was a lot. Kansas City opened the door that night just for these guys and they barred
anybody else from coming in the place. And just like when we went—I went on R and R to…in
Asia there. Where’d I go? I went to…
�6
Interviewer: You were in Taiwan once and you were…or…Did you go?
Veteran: The other place.
Interviewer: Bangkok?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: Bangkok?
Veteran: Yeah, I went to Bangkok. And you go into places and you’d just be looking around,
because I’d like to get something for my wife, and I got some nice things. But they wanted to
show me—they wanted to give me drinks all the time. And I wouldn’t—I didn’t need that. So, I
drank a lot of tea and I had maybe a drink or something. But that…I wasn’t interested in that
because of the hot. You’d get sick. (00:12:21)
Veteran: So anyway, all these guys had been exposed to that same thing. Here we go to Kansas
City, Missouri, and we are being exposed to that. They’re just looking around. They are going
and looking at dresses and things, negligees and all…who knows, and jewelry. And they had
these bargains. And oh my goodness and I didn’t realize. And two police cars were sitting out
there. They’d been through this before too. And but our guys, the ones that drank, didn’t drive.
And that was the difference. They had some in other classes. They had arrests when they got
down there because other folks picked up and did that too before us years ago. And okay, so not
on our watch. So, these guys did pretty well and all of them came back. We didn’t have anybody,
quote, missing, unquote, for a day. None of that stuff. And so, they came back and we passed the
muster of being good, whatever that meant. Our wives weren’t mad at us for…They got upset
because of the money that was spent, so some things went back but that was later. The intent was
okay but it was a little bit overwhelming. So, I was very careful when I was shopping because I
�7
was short budget. But these other guys were also a short budget and they just really overdid it. So
anyway, that was really, really excellent. But we did some things with the kids with various
scouting programs. We had the Coast Guard cutter. We could get on that and do some things
when it was docked. Sometimes, later on, my wife and I joined the Coast Guard auxiliary and we
would take folks from our class with us. We bought a 25-foot cruiser that could sleep folks on it,
so we’d take folks on that. (00:14:20)
Veteran: Or we could do something alongside with the Coast Guard as auxiliarists and we’d go
rescue a buoy that got away and was floating around in that great big Coast Guard, which was a
tow boat vessel. It wasn’t—it didn’t have storage for hauling things but it had the strength to
push barges. So, we’d go into these sloughs and pull these things out. So, they liked that. That
was kind of adventurous. We had a hunt club, a fox hunt club. No fox. And they had maybe a
couple dozen of really nice horses and so we got them involved in that. You know, we would try
to get them involved with the local stuff and then do this with their families. And we kept doing
that. And then maybe we would have something special in the officers’ club. If not—in other
words, keeping on the post pretty much. And that was pretty much what we did to keep the—
building the morale and encourage each other. We also coached each other before each exam.
And I got pneumonia before a final exam, my tactical examination. Only once. A 4-hour
examination and I got pneumonia. And I didn’t know it; I was coughing and hacking and all this
stuff. And I got—I medicated myself and I went in there like this. And so, took the examination
and I didn’t think I did well at all but I had learned something when I was an enlisted man in
1957 when I took the intelligence course. They had a model for writing an order of battle report
to teach, or help, the commander understand the enemy weather and terrain. When I came to that,
�8
I memorized all of that stuff. I just—I had a core dump. I didn’t know what I was writing but I
got it down. (00:16:31)
Veteran: And I filled all the blanks too. I was probably the only one that did that. I got out of
there. I got a B+ on that. And I was half lit. I mean, all that medicine. Finally, they had to really
do some serious thing because I had—it was in my lungs real heavy. And that’s the first time.
And it opened the door for a series of repeats in years later. Got through that. Then, we got into
electives and I got into—one of the electives I was in had to go a year long. And it had to do with
systems analyses and other kinds of things using…systems analyses and operational
methodology. Something like that. It’s an executive level think tank skillset. And what it does: it
organizes your work in such a way that you can…you put it out in a plan and you work out some
of the details of it and then you execute it, keep adjusting it here and then when this comes along,
it will shape up and you finish with what you started with. And you might not be exactly where
you want it to go but you—it’s done. When you get finished, you have a better solution than if
you didn’t organize. So, I got that done. And got through the course rather well and graduated in
June of ’73.
Interviewer: Okay, so basically you have a year—you have an academic year, essentially, at
Leavenworth. Okay. (00:18:14)
Veteran: Now, they said—just like they did in MI school—you—some people in the course here
didn’t get orders. There were several of us. We’ve got an assignment for you you can’t turn
down. I heard that before. But I had no clue what I was going to do. So, what they wanted me to
do, and these other guys, they sent us all to a different university. I went to the University of
Kansas to get a master of business administration. I didn’t see that coming.
�9
Interviewer: Alright. Was this a 1-year program that you did or 2-year?
Veteran: It was 18-months.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: 18-months.
Interviewer: So, it was 3 semesters? Or…?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: Did they have 3 semesters, essentially? Or…? So, you do fall—
Veteran: Oh no. Well, it was 2 years but I got it done in 18-months.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you finish in early ’75? Or end of ’74?
Veteran: End of ’74.
Interviewer: Yep. Okay. And now, what does your family do at that time? Did you buy a
house or they provide housing?
Veteran: I was in government housing and I rearranged some things and they have never seen
anybody come in and rearrange foolishness. They were this brand new. One of the things that
was foolish is you had a front door that opened this way, like this, and you had a storage room
where you put your gardening whatever that opened indoors. So, okay, so this is fine. This would
bang into this but you’d open it up and whatever and you could get in. But this took up all this
room. And so you—if I had a lawnmower, I had one of those push mower things, I’d push it over
here and have to shove it over here, do this, and then how do you get back in? (00:20:20)
�10
Veteran: So, that’s—I took it off the hinges and that thing opened up or came like this. So, this
would open like this and you got that out of the way and you’d go in there and open it up. You’d
go in and out so the door opened where you could get in and out direct to the lawn. And then I
put some fake—these squares, fake squares, on it and I painted the door one color and the
squares some kind of other complimentary color, but different. And I did that and I thought that
looked so good. So, I did that to the master—the front door of the house and boy the place
looked sharp. And then inside, we moved a few things around. Same thing: the faucets went the
wrong way because it would be hitting something. I changed it. So, they sent in—they inspect
everything. And we know that; we learned that in Germany. We always, every house we were in,
any apartment we were in in Europe. But we passed with flying colors. I was enlisted and now I
am an officer. I knew what to do. I mean, spit-shined everything. They looked under stuff and it
was clean, it would shine. Everything. It doesn’t matter what it was. So, they sent an inspector
over and he got halfway in the living room and he stopped. He said, “Now, I got to get my boss.”
And he said, “I’ll see you later, I think.” So, he left. So, his boss, the post engineer himself, came
by. And he walked through the whole place. Everything, even the pipes underneath were
polished. Everything. And so, he said, “I am not supposed to do this. This is a violation of every
code that we have. But you improved this place. Here’s your clearance. Good job.” He walked
out. (00:22:16)
Veteran: So anyway, my kids were involved in that stuff. I mean, they liked that. And Charlotte
was too. We repaired all the walls. You couldn’t tell where any pictures were hung. We repaired
everything. So anyway, so we left there and we bought a house in Lansing, Kansas. It was a
brand-new house. And they had bulldozed the property around it and it was clay. What do you
grow on concrete? It had no trees. It had a nice driveway. It was…I think it was 3 bedrooms. It
�11
had a bedroom downstairs and a bath and an upstairs that had another bath. I think that’s how it
worked. And a two-car garage. And I thought it was a rather sturdy house. We didn’t pay much
for it. So, we got it. And so, the whole family pitched in; everyone got involved. Now, while we
were getting pitched in, working on that, and while I was at the Command General Staff College,
the former spouse was causing trouble. I had to go to court and do this stuff and answer that
question and go over there and do this and do the other. And the—her husband would, to save
money, went and got himself a lawyer’s degree. I don’t know how he did it. And so, he tried to
represent himself and they let him do it. And everything was convoluted and she admitted to
molesting my two daughters. But anyway, during that process she was allowed to have visitation
with the children at her house. I didn’t trust that so I was very reluctant. I was upset. I didn’t
have plan B to go raid the place. So anyway, the first time they visited, they came back and they
didn’t come back with my son. (00:24:13)
Veteran: And nobody did anything. The judge said, “Is he in danger?” “Yeah.” But he didn’t talk
about value systems. They were teaching him how to be a pervert. Well, wait until you find out
what he was doing: he was doing the same thing that my dad did and he did the same thing that
his step-dad was doing. He’s an adulterer and an alcoholic with uncontrolled rage. That’s not
good. That is not healthy. My children were confused with all that and they learned how to—
accounting. My wife taught my first son, Michael, accounting and he remembers it today on his
paper route: how to account for everything, account for your money. And she helped him with
that in that process. So, he never really was long in that Lansing house. Our first year there he
was gone. So anyway, the rest of them we worked on the property. So, I went back on Fort
Leavenworth to the hunt club. Guess what they have in the hunt club? Great big manure pile.
And they mix it with dirt and then they mix it with—have to do it about 4 times because that
�12
stuff is hot. It’ll burn everything. And so, we put about 6 inches of that around the property. And
we lived there 6 years. And that—and the lawn just was—it was lush, it was beautiful. My boys
could cut it, I could cut it, my wife could cut it. It was really not difficult. And we put in a variety
of trees that were local. Even a willow tree that got 50 feet tall before it was struck by lightning
and then it blew up. It was gone. I had to cut it down, dig it out. But the trees were wonderful,
different kinds of trees: shade trees and flowering trees. And I put bushes all around and then
repainted the house. And then, we had the inside foamed. You could put a candle, in wintertime,
the candle on the dining room table and it’d heat the room. Really great stuff. (00:26:29)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And we did some other things but everybody did it together. So, that was really good.
And then they did well in school; the children did well in school. And about, maybe, in our 3rd
year in the house, we bought a 25-foot cruiser, a Starcraft whatever it was called.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And so, we could cruise the Missouri River. We learned how to fish. We’d swim in that
water and that kind of stuff. So, that was a very positive time despite all this interruption.
Interviewer: Right. And so, you said you spent 6 years in that house. Now, did you go to
different duty stations? Or were you able to stay in Kansas the whole time yourself?
Veteran: I was at one assignment: 6 years.
Interviewer: Okay, and what assignment was that?
Veteran: And that was the…I was—well, actually a little more than 6 years. I was 1 year—2
years—at the University of Kansas. Or, close to 2 years. And 6 years plus, a little fringy, plus
�13
in—as a member of the…staff. So, I had one year as a student at Command General Staff, 2
years in the college, and the rest of the time 4 plus so I had 6 plus years that were in Kansas. As
long as I was in that Lansing house, I was on staff at the Command General Staff College.
Interviewer: Okay, so now you are an instructor, basically? (00:28:07)
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Now, when I finished the University of Kansas, now I am bringing up a name now that
we heard before. And I have known this guy since 1963 or -4. But I got orders to…I think to go
to the Pentagon again. So, the commandant was a guy by the name of John J. Hennessey. So, I
went down to see him. I spoke to his secretary, “Can I see the general?” “Sure. Just a minute.”
And he hollered in, “Hey Roger, get in here.” I went in there to see him, sat down. And we
talked about things. And this is when Colin Powell was in the communication section of the
White House. He was being vetted. And the last time he commanded something he was a platoon
leader. He never commanded a company, a battalion, a brigade, or chicken. And he was being
raised up to general officer rank and also considered for 2nd star almost immediately. And John
knew about it; he told me about that. I don’t even know why he did that but he felt close to me
that he could tell me anything. He said, “What are you doing?” I said, “Well, I graduated from
here and then I went to the University of Kansas and here are my orders.” He took those orders.
He said, “Well, what would you like to do?” I said, “Sir, I’d like to—I’d love to be an author,
instructor, and do some stuff around the college here.” He said, “Do it. I’ll keep you posted.” A
week later, I got a phone call from his secretary: you are now going to be transferred when you
leave the college—you’ll be transferred and you’ll report to duties at such and such. I don’t
�14
know what they did but you know what they did. And I worked for him in the college that 4
years. 4 plus: some odds and ends added to that.
Interviewer: Right. (00:30:15)
Veteran: And so, I was teaching anything to do with management. And then I had elective
courses that had to do with computer science, team building, and some basic courses I had to
teach too that was part of the core. And I can’t remember what it was. But it still had something
to do with computers. Some technical thing. And I worked for a department and, you know, I
always had a lot of good close friends from West Point. So, my full colonel—I was a major at
the time-my full colonel was a West Pointer and he was itching to become a brigadier. And that’s
all I knew about him. Nothing. I’d see him in the morning, I’d look at him and he’d look at me.
And I did that for a while. And remember now, when I came back home, I had this new
beginning that I was in basic training, trying to learn what the Bible says. Anything. Anything.
And so, I got involved with some of the people: a George Kirkendall, a lieutenant colonel. He
was an artillery officer, I believe. And see, he took me under his wing. And he worked on
administration. I was in the teaching staff; he was in administration. So, he got me involved with
groups and post chaplain, and then a guy by the name of Jim Emmerman. You’ll hear about him.
He was a full colonel. So anyway, so I got involved with them and then they were teaching me
ethics and all kinds of things that the Bible teaches. And I started teaching these various classes
and I tried to learn some of the new things that I had learned in the core courses that I took when
I was a student. Plus, in some of the things, I got in touch with a PhD who was in the
management division also. (00:32:26)
Veteran: A very senior civilian. And he had me and a couple other fellows, 3 or 4 of us, to be his
understudies. And so, we taught a couple of—a pile of programs for small group dynamics and
�15
how to solve problems in small groups. And they were all straight forward. I mean, you looked at
things and you just sort of arranged them and you’d come out this way or that way and all of
them made sense. All of them were correct. It’s the idea—the process had to be correct to make
it—to get anywhere. He knew it and we knew. Well, we thought that was neat. And so, I started
teaching some of the things like that. Other things, you couldn’t do that because we were
teaching Fortran, COBOL. I had learned those before but I still had to teach them again. And
basic. And basic is what we used all the time but the others were—Fortran you needed for your
math stuff but the basic was good anytime. You could—and you could mix. So, then in teaching
the management courses, they gave me some latitude and but the course had to be approved. And
so, finally with that, I even used the Bible for references and never got in trouble. And Moses
was taught don’t waste your—by his son—by his father-in-law—don’t waste your time by
fooling around, having everybody come see you. Why don’t you delegate it? And I got—I nailed
that. And so, I introduced some of this stuff and then at some of the examinations we gave, it was
broken down into groups and the group had to work on something and then they get closer to
something as a solution. And then, they keep going until you come up with something. And
thank you. (00:34:26)
Veteran: And so, with that, on one of the occasions they allowed—they gave me an allowance
and I’d go to places and I’d buy toys. I’d buy some really weird stuff. And these guys are—these
are adult men: combat killers and all that stuff and whatever. And so, in one case I got Tinker
Toy sets. But I had—like every other collect—I had 4 groups. They were smaller. They were less
than 50. But anyway, maybe there were 28 of them in there or 40 or…but not 50. Anyway, so I
would give these 3 groups the regular Tinker Toys and I’d pour them out like that. I’d say, “I am
going to give you 3 questions.” And then I’d come in with this monstrous Tinker Toy set and
�16
dump it and it’d fall all over the place. “Okay, now what I want you to do, and you have 7
minutes, I want you to model yourself.” It went pretty quickly. I mean, they just zip, zip. A
couple things—the big guys, they must have had a hard time but they…model yourself. So, you
couldn’t do much with it but you did something. “Alright, now one of you tell us about
yourself.” So, he did and nobody—the rest of them didn’t say much. Alright, and this is what I
really got surprised about and it’s very, very real today. Take those kids and you’ll get the same
results. Connect with somebody next to you. “These are mine.” The other guy said, “Yeah, and
these are mine.” I didn’t say—I was getting mad at him. I had to walk out of the room the first
time I went through this. I came back. I said, “You have 3 minutes.” And all of a sudden,
they…so, they did something like that. Alright, so they did that. (00:36:29)
Veteran: Then I said, “Alright, the last question is: now, connect with your group.” That went
quickly. They really got busy with that. And not every year did it the same way. Each week—the
hallmark of this whole mess was when I said, “Make a model of yourself,” with the big ones,
they did something. “Connect with somebody else,” they took a chair and put it on the table and
put a guy in it and touched it. And then I said, “Now, connect with everybody.” And they put the
model all around him. The individual is key to the team. They got an A. The others did too
because they had rational stuff but it was different. Nobody built anything like that. Another
time, and the commandant was a brigadier and he was just a very gentle person with a keen sense
of humor, but he was dry. And so, he came in and I don’t care what you did. Here are the
questions. And I said, “You could present it any way you want. No Tinker Toys.” One guy came
in with a banjo and he was singing a song to Wild Bill. Wild Bill used to be a 3-star general that
ran trade oper—training command for the entire United States Army. Wild Bill come around
with me. Absolutely off the wall stuff that we couldn’t figure out because it was just…it was not
�17
developed. It was half thrown and grown. So, he was there and he’d have a refrain. All this Wild
old Bill, we are just going to get together, we are going to mash our teeth and we are going to get
‘er done, oh yes, oh yes. So, this general came in and nobody saw him. He came in back. I was
sitting back here and I was just…So, he sat next to me. He started doing this with his foot.
(00:38:32)
Veteran: He looked at me, he gave me a punch and said, “Good job. Tell him that.” And he
walked out. The guy that replaced…that was at my combat battalion, at the time that I was S-2
and I was leaving, a guy by the name of Louisell [sounds like], Lieutenant Colonel Louisell. He
came in during one of my—one of these last sessions. And we were getting ready for and then I
was giving them instructions, getting them ready, and we had some definitional things that they
asked before the final exam. So, he walks in and I am trying to finish those up. He said, “I got
something to share with you all. You don’t mind, do you, major?” “Oh no, sir, I don’t mind.” I
said, “You idiot.” Because I was furious because these guys were on a roll. They were getting
real—they were going like this. I said, “You couldn’t study for this thing. I don’t care what you
do, to go to bed if you get drunk or you stay sober. Whatever it is you do just know you can’t get
ready for this exam that you’re going to face tomorrow.” Anyway, so they were getting ready.
And so, he talked about how important management stuff is and this is an excellent course and
you got the best instructor we got. I don’t know where he got that from: best instructor we got in
this subject and stuff like that. And so, I expect y’all to do well. And as he walked out, he turned
to the group and said, “I don’t know anything about management,” and he went out and closed
the door and I said, “Amen,” and the place exploded. He never got promoted. He never got
promoted. (00:40:13)
�18
Veteran: But they had their exam and they all did well. So, that…so, I did a lot of that kind of
stuff and that was kind of fun and serious stuff was we had some people that were over stressed
and so I also had a—I taught the entire class on stress management. And I didn’t know anything
but I did a lot of research and I had stories. And we went in the auditorium and we taught that
and one of the former…one of the former leaders we had, the generals we had, over the school
was…he was obnoxious and he was loud and aggressive. It wasn’t Louisell but he was like
Louisell but he still had a side that was really…he meant what he said, in other words. And he
came in and I said, “Oh my goodness.” And so, he said, “Let me introduce your instructor.” He
was a 3-star at this time or something. And so, he mentioned me and talked about yeah, you got
the best instructor we got to teach this subject. I never taught it before in my life. And so, I don’t
know what he was talking about but he was in one of those moods. He was a 2-star and he was
the colonel I told you about when I was working in that same—okay, this guy left as a brigadier,
got promoted and came back. And one day, I came in and I had been through some of these
courses about forgiveness and so I decided I got to take the initiative to build rapport with this
colonel who wants to be promoted. He got one—I think he got that one promotion. And then he
got another one. So anyway, I came in one morning. I came in about 6:30 and he was coming
upstairs, came in and walked into his office and I hollered down the hall, “Good morning,
Colonel—” whatever his name, “—Jones.” And I walked in the office and I thought, well that’s
embarrassing. I just made a jackass out of myself. You don’t holler at anybody down the hall.
Whoever heard of that? (00:42:40)
Veteran: Anyway, I went home and I shared that with Charlotte. She said, “What do you call
that? Progress or failure?” I said, “You know, I got to think about it. It was progress. I was
getting over myself.” Well, I did that for about 6 weeks. Every morning that I’d see him; I didn’t
�19
see him every morning but every time I saw him in the morning, “Good morning, Colonel
Jones!” And he’d look, you know, as if nobody was there and I’d go in my little office. Alright.
Time passes and I am walking down the stairs from the second to the first floor. I said, “Good
morning, Colonel Jones.” He said, “Good morning, Rog,” and I almost fell down all the stairs,
boom-boom. And had a good rapport with him. Now, on one of these occasions, I gave an
examination based on synergy. And every—the class I taught, they all got lousy scores. And he
counted that as a training event where I would learn something. And he gave them all high
numbers for putting up with it. Oof. I didn’t know that that existed. I didn’t know that that
existed. So anyway, that was kind of fun. But he said, “This is very important because we are
having trouble coming in the ranks with stress management. We don’t know how to handle stress
management.”
Interviewer: Now for context here, now we are talking kind of mid-late ‘70s. That’s a
period when the Army, I believe, is reducing itself in size. You had phases—
Veteran: They had a riff going on that would choke a horse.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, these people who are trying to make careers in the Army, you have
to keep moving up or you’re out, essentially. (00:44:23)
Veteran: That’s…no, that’s right. And the mediocre and some of the really sharp ones were
eliminated.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, there’s—there are reasons for the stress issue beyond maybe just
the normal ones at a regular time. Okay.
Veteran: But this PhD was a good, good…he was a good source of encouragement. He’s a
mentor. I didn’t have a mentor. He was one of them. And so, that was important. One of the
�20
other thing is in 1976, I was still teaching there but these guys—this George Kirkendall—okay.
He called me to a meeting and they were having a—some kind of a Bill Glass crusade in Rona
proper and they had a group going in to the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks on post and also the
Leavenworth big house downtown. And also, the ladies’ and the men’s prison, state prison, in
Lansing. And so, George said, “Why don’t you go over to the Disciplinary Barracks. Come to
our meeting and then go over to the Disciplinary Barracks.” He already coached everybody
because he…George knew all of us. So, I went over there and I met Bill Glass and also Roger
whatever his name was. A football player.
Interviewer: Staubach?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I mean, I was with him about 3 times, a couple of places. Anyway, went over there and
I wore my bib overalls. My number was 65. They didn’t know I was an officer at all. And so,
went through a couple of days of that. It was a great learning curve and these people that are star
athletes would get up and give their testimony and then we would sit with the guys and process
that. And then you’d go to another event where somebody would do the same thing but a
different kind of a presentation, same format, encouraging guys to get out of themselves and get
into something that would give them some really hope and courage and stamina and energy.
(00:46:42)
Veteran: So, all the right things. And so, the Lord laid it on my heart to show up on Sunday in
my uniform. I was in my dress A uniform. You know, my cord and combat junk and stuff that
you wear. And I wear my bloused boots because I was airborne qualified and I used that. So, full
�21
blast he saw me coming. He said, “I was praying for somebody in a military uniform to show up
but I didn’t know who it was.” So, I gave my testimony. And that helped. And that helped me to
get out of myself but it also helped them to get out of themselves. So, for the last 2 years I was at
Leavenworth as an instructor, I was on Tuesday nights in the prison. And at some—one point, I
got close to a guy by the name of Sonny Knight. He comes from New Mexico—Albuquerque. I
think what he did is he had a disagreement with his first sergeant and he cold-cocked him and
they put him in prison. I don’t know how long. Threw the key away. But anyway, so he was in
there. And so, he said, “You know what?” after being with him for 8 or 9 months, he said, “It’d
be nice if…could you come and see me on a…you know, the weather’s getting kind of nice,
could you come see me sometime?” So, I gathered the kids and Charlotte, took a picnic basket.
They checked it all out and we went inside the compound and had a picnic with Sonny. Did that
about 4, 5, 6 times. And I always sign in: it would be Sonny Knight, his name and my name,
Roger Talmadge. Relationship: family member. (00:48:27)
Veteran: And the guards? Yeah, okay. Because they’d see me on Tuesdays too. And the chaplain
would come over there and wave. He never came in; didn’t monitor anything. So, those guys
taught me more than I ever taught them. They were reading the Bible every day. I read it when I
could but I couldn’t—I never did study it to that depth. So anyway, just the last year while I was
there, some months later after I was getting ready, before I left in ’78. Okay, so before I left, and
that was in June or July, but anyway I came in that Tuesday night and it was raining out and just
really not a very nice night. And some—I heard this voice that says, “Hey bub.” Oh, it’s a
military policewoman. I said, “Yes, captain? How may I help you?” “Well young man, you come
in here and I have some questions for you.” “Alright, yes ma’am.” “You visit—you come
visiting, don’t you, on Sundays?” “Yes, ma’am.” She said, “Well, the record shows that you’ve
�22
been coming in here several times on Sundays visiting Sonny Knight.” “Yes, ma’am, that’s
correct.” And she said, “You bring in your family too, don’t you?” Where is this going? “Yes,
ma’am.” “Well now, you marked down it’s your family, all of you, family to Sonny Knight and
he to you.” “Yes, ma’am.” “But he’s black and you’re white.” I said, “Captain, took you 3 or 4
months to figure that out.” I walked away. (00:50:20)
Veteran: That was stupid. But that’s the kind of thing—and that really helped me too because I
got some other situation that I am going to get involved in. My wife went to the women’s prison
and I’d go to the men’s prison in Lansing. I got in the big house and those guys are older than
me, all white-collar workers. I mean, they extorted some money I couldn’t even count that high, I
don’t have that many feet and toes. Toes and fingers. And they said, “Well young man, you came
to see us? We don’t care what you tell us but just as long as it’s from the Bible.” And they were
mentors. They were really good mentors. That’s a hard place to get into unless you’re in trouble.
But that—I don’t have anybody follow—I never got a follow out of them. While I was at…No, it
was later. Okay, we left. We closed shop and put the house up for sale and headed towards
Washington D.C. for an assignment not to the Pentagon but to the Army Military Personnel
Center. Personnel Management Center. And that’s in Alexandria. So, I came up and just before I
left, my Jewish boss, who replaced the colonel, called me up and said, “Hey Rog, I want you to
put your blue, you know, your green uniform, your class A uniform and come over to the
college. We are having a little formation; we would like you to be there.” “Yes, sir.” I didn’t ask
him why. And I got there. My wife is there, my kids are there. Alright, well maybe we are going
to have ice cream and cake together. And they promoted me to lieutenant colonel. (00:52:19)
Veteran: And so, my boss was Jewish. And I used to greet him in Hebrew and he’d answer back
to me in an appropriate manner. And I’d send him…what is it? Gifts for Passover and he’d send
�23
me plates that had the 10 commandments or something about Jesus is risen or something. You
know, he’d send me this Christian stuff. Anyway, so he said, “Roger, you got something to say?”
I said, “Sir, praise the Lord.” He said, “I knew that. I knew you were going to say that.” And that
was the end of it. I didn’t say anything else. So, that was that. And we still have that friend. He’s
a wonderful man. And when I got sick there, I thought I had something really wrong with me.
He’d come visit and his wife would say, “Mazel tov,” which means “Well.” And so, they were
really sweet to Charlotte and myself. So, I left them and ended up working for a gentleman in
Alexandria. He was a Signal Corps officer, a very fine gentleman. He was a Signal Corps officer
that…he was a colonel and he had commanded large units, small ones, bigger ones, and bigger
ones. And this is one of his staff assignments. And he had been in the Army a long time. So,
that’s why I started working for him. And my job was administration. In other words, taking
all—taking anything to do with computers and reducing whatever they are doing to some usable,
readable form. So, I did that. They were processing: there were 5 different skillsets that they
were asking for in the combat support arena. That meant corps of engineer, chemical, military
intelligence, and two more. And so, those—they would recruit those and vet them and study
them and recommend them to boards for a promotion or school. (00:54:32)
Veteran: And I would process. They’d come up with this work and I’d process that and give it to
them and they’d send it to the place where that would happen. And I did that from ’80—I mean,
from ’78-’81. I was in that as a brand-new lieutenant. I mean, they just shined. It was ridiculous
how bright they were because there was no dust on them yet. So, I got in—I was in there for
about 10 days and remember this—remember I mentioned Jim Emmerman? That word is coming
back now. So, I had a mission to do and so I sat at my little desk and these guys are over here
and my ladies—I had a bunch of ladies that did all this administration—and they were a hoot.
�24
Later, I moved my desk over there because why would I want to be on the outfield when all the
work was going in here? And the executive officer was here and the division chief was here, the
full colonel. And this was under a director, which was directed by a brigadier general. So, he had
the officer’s director and then these guys had combat service and combat service support
assignments, education. So, I—that happened later. But anyway, here I was sitting at this desk by
myself and these guys are charting away and they ignored me because the interaction was with
this. This people were crunching their work. So finally, the 10th day I came to work and I got up
enough guts and I dialed a phone number to the commanding general’s office, General Heinz.
Hayes. Haines, Haines. And the secretary answers, “General Haines’ office.” I said, “Ma’am,
this is Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge. I am new to the command. I need to speak to the
commanding general.” (00:56:27)
Veteran: She says, “He’s busy.” “Yes, ma’am. I still need to speak with the general personally.”
“He’s busy. I’ll take a message.” I said, “Ma’am, you will not take a message. I do have a
message you can give him though—you can give him. Tell him Jim Emmerman has sent an
ambassador to see him with a special message and it is Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge. T-A-L-MA-D-G-E.” And I hung up. Three minutes later our phone rings on my desk. I pick it up.
“Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge.” “Sir, he will see you now.” So, I went up to see the general. He
was on the what floor and I was on the 4th floor. I’d go up wherever he was. Walk in, introduce
myself to her. She said, “Just go right on in.” So, I did. I opened the door and said, “Good
morning, General Haines. How are you, sir?” “Have a seat, son.” I sat down. And you know how
soldiers are: they talk about soldier stuff. He was airborne and he did his stuff and I didn’t have
my stuff on but—and he didn’t chuck me out. I just told him where I had just come from and he
said, “Oh, you were at—yeah, you were teaching at…down there and doing those things. Yeah,
�25
yeah, John Hennessey used to be the commandant there.” I said, “Yes, sir. I served with him.”
And okay so… “Now wait a minute now, you have a message for me?” I said, “Yes sir, I sure
do. It’s a personal message and I got to eyeball you to tell you. I got to look in your eyes and tell
you this message. And it comes from Jim Emmerman” “Yeah, he was my chaplain when I was
brigade commander as a colonel, that lieutenant colonel at the time, lieutenant colonel chaplain
would call me up and remind me every Friday about what my priorities ought to be on Sundays.
So, what did he tell you?” (00:58:25)
Veteran: “Well, just basically the same thing, General. Be sure this Sunday to be in chapel.” He
said, “What?!” he started laughing. He said, “That’s the message?” I said, “Yes, sir.” “Well, I
believe it.” I said, “I got another purpose for being here. You know that?” He said, “Yes sir, I am
sure.” To me, he said, “Yes, I know. I am sure.” And I said, “Well sir, it is: I also learned that
you assess, you train, sometimes to a full retirement, your enlisted and your officer chaplains.”
“Yeah, that’s their job.” “It is but you don’t have a chaplain assigned to this command. This
command has 2500 people in it. Half of them are civilian, the other half wear this uniform.” And
so, the general said, “What? And? So?” I said, “Well, I am your new—I just came up to tell you
that I am your new senior chaplain.” He says, “Great, Colonel. Get out.” So, I left. I don’t know
how many days passed. The secretary calls and says, “I am still sitting there. And furthermore,
the general wants to have a prayer breakfast in January like all the big boys in the Pentagon.”
“Hmm. Okay.” You know what happened in January, 1979? In Washington D.C.?
Interviewer: I should…
Veteran: It locked down all of the metro system.
Interviewer: Okay.
�26
Veteran: Knocked out a lot of electric lines. Caused absolute bedlam in the city and the county
areas.
Interviewer: Was that a blizzard? Or…? (01:00:13)
Veteran: Absolutely. And 200 people showed up at our little boys’ prayer breakfast. The general
was happy with that. He thought that was cool. And what they did, the office did, ordered up
some lieutenant general—I don’t know who it was—and he came in to give a talk. And so, we
had some music, we had a guy give a little introductory introduction and prayer, we had another
guy get up and offer another prayer in Hebrew. Sing some more. And then he was introduced
and he got up. He says, “I come from the desk—I mean, the desk operations side of the house.
And I am one of the executives there.” I don’t know who would outrank him; I don’t know who
it was. But nonetheless, he was in operations. And he said, “I am prepared to give a presentation,
about 25-30 minutes, on the deterrent measures we are taking against the Soviet armored threat. I
think I am in the wrong place.” He gave his briefing and they applauded him. It was dead. I
mean, many people who really didn’t care about religion were really attentive. I don’t think they
made notes. So, he left. Anyway, I went back up the front office and I also bumped into a general
who was in—he was another director. You have the director for officers, you have a director for
enlisted, and then you had a director for something else. This was the guy, I think, for enlisted.
His name was Mitchell and he had his aide get ahold of me and so I came over to see him. He
said, “Can I be your helper?” (01:02:10)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, so we made it now to January of ’79. You have made yourself
essentially the head chaplain of the unit you are working with. And you were talking now
about having tried to stage a prayer breakfast and then an officer from another unit has
�27
now asked to be your assistant, named Mitchell. And if you can pick up the story from
there?
Veteran: Yeah. Okay, so I was the senior chaplain. I had no administrative help whatsoever from
anybody, or any juniors. So, I had to recruit those. Also, General Mitchell was a director of one
of the enlisted directorate and my senior on my side, on the officer’s side, was also a brigadier
general but he was in charge of the officer assignments and stuff. But General Mitchell put out
the word that he would— “Oh, I’d love to assist with what you’re doing and maybe coach you.”
His first advice to me was, “You’ve got to go up to that front office and tell them that you will
make recommendations. They will choose from those recommendations because you know what
the program looks like and how the flavor of it will carry the day. Sending somebody from the
deputy chief of staff of operations would have been good to send to Fort Knox to the armor
school. Or Fort Benning to one of their schools. That kind of environment.” So, after that for
quite a while, the following years I was there, I’d make those—make some of those
recommendations and it worked just fine. And we had no trouble. Let’s see now…
Interviewer: Just for reference at this point: so how long were you in that job? How long
were you at that place? (01:04:06)
Veteran: I was at that place until 1981.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: Alright, now I then received orders to Fort Huachuca, wherever that is, in Sierra Vista,
Arizona, which is 70 miles…I think it’s southeast, I think I have that right, of Tucson, Arizona.
And I was to be the deputy chief of staff for personnel and community activities. It had a payroll
that exceeded any—well, exceeded the state of Arizona, for one. It had everything to do with
�28
personnel management, civilian and military. It also had to do with morale and anything what
you could do to improve the morale of not only the military personnel but maybe civilian
personnel that were working there as regular folks, and then the families. And then it had
anything else that would come along with that, such as—well, in the morale area, as part of it,
they managed all the clubs: officer and enlisted clubs. The…what is it? The pro golf course.
They had the skeet business. Skeet shooting. You also had the only military, Army military, herd
of horses and a mule, the one that’s in the parade when the boots are in backwards of our
president when deceased. And that one is out there. And then, you also have 5 bulls that you use
for…you make a lot of money on those, they said, in your rodeos. And people pay good money
to get bucked off those so you can make a lot of money on it if you know how to handle it.
They’re also in charge of the library and the post exchange and anything else we can think of that
would be having to do with personnel wellness and so forth. (01:06:21)
Interviewer: Okay. Did you take this job?
Veteran: Oh yeah. I didn’t know what it was. It was equivalent to a battalion assignment. I got 10
divisions with over 11,000 personnel, civilian and military, working for me directly. And some
of the—two of these civilian positions outranked me. I was lieutenant colonel and they were
SES-14s. I mean, GM-14s. I should have been a full colonel. I took it. I was a young lieutenant
colonel. So, I took over that job and when I got there, we bought a house right away because
there was nothing on post. Everything was too small. I had all those children. I had 5 children by
then. And so, we bought a house with a little swimming pool in it and then set up camp. I didn’t
know how long I was going to be there. Who knows? I could retire. And then, they sent me to
school for this particular type of work. And General Elton, who was the deputy chief of staff of
personnel now, he was a 3-star. He wanted—he was putting a lot of emphasis on that in order to
�29
solidify the health and wealth and whatever you call it, progression, of our military and civilian
communities, but their families of all things. And so, all of these had something to do with that. I
was even involved with a hospital from a gentleman’s standpoint. But I had no authority but I
certainly took—I got involved with them as—trying to—what can I do for you role? So, I’d ask
them what can we do for you? Same thing with the chapel program: all morale. Your health is
important to us and, spiritually, your growth. So, I got into all of that, and even the school
system. Now, I was in charge of some things to do with the school system. (01:08:21)
Interviewer: Did the base have a school system? Or is this the one just in—
Veteran: Oh, we had an elementary school that was very good. We had a middle school
downtown and a high school downtown. So, the elementary school was something we took—we
didn’t direct anything but we just oversight that the facilities work well, the right kind of people
were recruited and competent, and also were very, very positive towards our military and civilian
family. And that’s a remote site. So, they get special attention. And he wanted to make sure that
he had that kind of an environment going on; he demanded it. So, I went to school for that and
did quite well in the course, got through it. And networked with people who were really good at
this stuff. I wasn’t in personnel management; I did other stuff. Yes, I was in the personnel—
Army personnel command there, center, and but that was pushing paperwork. Other people knew
what they were doing. I didn’t know the indices or policies but I knew of what I needed to do to
process, to ensure, the success of it based on the recommendations of those who authored those
kinds of documents and the seniors supporting it. They’d give me guidance and our people
would—we would respond to that.
Interviewer: Okay. And now, Fort Huachuca is—one thing it is stilled used for—they do a
lot of training of intelligence officers there and there’s a lot of that kind of thing going on.
�30
Veteran: That was one of the—intelligence was one of the branches that we serviced. So, I knew
a lot about them but not the process of getting them into it and so forth.
Interviewer: Alright. And how long did you stay in this position? (01:10:11)
Veteran: I was in that position…until 1983.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, that is ’81 to ’83.
Interviewer: Alright. And when you look at that time, what in particular stands out about
that experience or things that you did there?
Veteran: Well, we invented a few things. I was learning and I really networked hard with
anybody that I knew in Washington D.C. in morale welfare kinds of things. And also, financial
matters. I got close to one full colonel in the Pentagon, in these matters, and with his support and
guidance and stuff like that, we put together proposals and we won 43 million dollars worth of
improvements to Fort Huachuca. We rebuilt everything that was standing still, basically. Took
all the pools down to ground level. I mean, kept the shell but—and rebuilt those. And instead of
having 5 corps of engineer people walk around, testing the water multiple times a day, we put
these drip line computerized systems that if an inkling of anything changed, it would put the
right chemical in at the right time with enough leave time that by the time it was noticeable in a
whatever scale that was that it was watching, it would be back to it’s normal. It didn’t take long
for all of those. And we had I think two outdoors. At least two outdoors and…and one indoor
pool. The one indoor pool was an Olympic pool. We redid the whole thing. We put baffles in it
to make a difference. So, you could do—you could work your laps and you put the baffles in it
and you could work it as a measured lap. So, you couldn’t go this far but you could go half and
�31
back and still get your practice. And then, when you were in any kind of competition, you could
swim the full length and have that experience. (01:12:30)
Veteran: And the first thing I did, I started with the enlisted fieldhouse and made an enlisted spa
out of it. The officers were really…ooh, they were really…They thought that was alright. But the
enlisted men gained by that because it had tile in it, it had a great shower system for that, it had
good, good equipment for all kinds of ways of exercising. We put in an array of…what is it?
These…solar system? And it heated the entire water system for them for showers and a pool and
all that stuff. We could regulate all that. And it was just absolutely like a spa. And colorcoordinated. It really looked sharp. The only thing that the general, the 2—I think it was a 2-star
general—he wanted security in that place and nobody could figure out how to secure the place
while it was open. I didn’t have enough people to be on duty to keep them from coming in all the
doors because they had a lot of fire doors in there. So, finally I traveled different places in the
United States and I went to one place and they had these doors like you have here, with a—
handles on them. And—the ones with the push handles? And they simply put a U in it, dropped it
in there, and you couldn’t open the doors. So, I came back and we made a whole bunch of those
and all the doors were closed during what had that hammer down on it when the place was
closed. When it opened, it would open because it would be off because you had to have easy
avenues of egress. (01:14:17)
Veteran: So, people couldn’t sneak in there anymore. They came in the regular way and then
these doors would lock so they’d come in the regular way. And if somebody wanted to go out
those doors, they could go out the doors. We’d keep the U’s out of them. So, we met the fire
code. And there were some other things that we did too. But I got eaten up on that pretty badly.
The food in the officers’ mess was always a mess. We redid that color-coordinated because I had
�32
some artillery officers—I had some stuff that looked like Irish or Scotch design, whatever it is,
bright red for runners. And those officers liked it, especially a retired major general who lived
downtown. He came in and he loved it. So, he became my consultant. He said, “Can I be your
consultant?” I was a lieutenant colonel at the time. He said, “I don’t care about that. I want to do
this.” So, he helped me with all of it. We redid the non-commissioned officers’ club. He was
interested in that. And then, we redid the enlisted club too. And we made a feature in the noncommissioned officers’ club: we want you to make your profit in food, so we got after some
folks that knew how to cook well. and we started making money on that stuff. You always can
make money on alcohol. But we were trying to downgrade alcoholism and so that began to take
form. And the chapel program, I brought the Gideons International onboard. I was a member of
that already. And I used to pass out Bibles at the elementary school, when they’d come to school.
And the military police came to arrest me. So, I asked them, “Please call your—” I guess it was a
major— “please call your major and have him talk to me.” So, they got on the line and called
him. They said, “Lieutenant Colonel Talmadge would like to talk to you.” “What’s this for,
Sergeant?” “Well, he’s passing out Bibles at the elementary school.” He said, “Leave him
alone.” (01:16:24)
Veteran: And they drove off because I was authorized. Every post, camp, or station you come in
it has a guardhouse at the entrance. Betty Cottrell, her husband Colonel Cottrell was a
commanding officer of the post. He was the post commander for Fort Huachuca years ago and he
died some 12 years or more before I got there. So, she became a coach of mine, a self—whatever
you want to call it—proclaimed advisor about how to engage and assist widows. Alright, so
she’d come visit me whenever she had a case to jaw about something, especially what they
would butcher somebody—some deceased. She’d have me get involved with it. I had no
�33
authority but I’d get involved with those that did the medical side of it, where they’d take
somebody down as a cadaver and find out why they died and all that stuff. But they wouldn’t be
so mean. But whatever else that she was interested in. But she taught me a lot and I just kept my
mouth shut and learned a lot. So, what we did together, based on her meeting, went to the
commander and we created an organization called ‘Widows Information Center.’ And that
was—and we moved the military police out of that building and put them in it and put a great big
sign, ‘Stop here.’ And so, the widows were there and so the people would stop for information
and they could give them information down to the cat’s meow, particularly for families with
children.
Interviewer: Okay, so ‘Widows Information Center’ means information center run by
widows rather than information for widows? (01:18:13)
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: Okay. Good. I just wanted to—
Veteran: Information for the world.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So anyway, that—now, for the information for the widows, she had meetings and I’d
sometimes come there or just sit there and say nothing. And she had different kinds of things that
she would have them do. Some of them were good at crocheting and so they made things. They
made blankets for people in the hospital or something for their lap. Whatever. We had many of
those became grandparents, adopted grandparents, and they’d go after our nursing home, you
know, their care. And they’d adopt black, yellow, red, China—doesn’t matter who they were—
children and they became the grandmas and they come in and help out and level off some of the
�34
edges that a family might have. Because there—we had some of our cadre were in the
intelligence business and there’s a lot of spiky stuff going on there. And the others were in a
large signal brigade. We only have two of them in the world—United States, I should say. One
of them that takes care of the east, west, and the other one takes care of the east. And so, in the
west that—those families—sometimes they’d deploy to do things to do some work in an area
that’s been hit by maybe a storm. So, that kind of stuff. Or overseas for some operations. Put out
maybe some unit has deployed and they need that set up their base operation. And they are real
good about that stuff; they are really smart and fast. And the intelligence community is the same
way; they had this support. But the intelligence school had training in a wide variety of things. I
was trained in every field they got except for one. I was glib in that. And they thought because I
was working for the post that I was single corps and they shunned me until they found out who I
was. (01:20:14)
Veteran: One of the schoolhouse buildings in Fort Holabird is named Benjamin Talmadge. He
was General Washington’s coordinator for 6 spy rings along the eastern Atlantic coast here
during the Revolutionary War. He’s my great, great, great, great grandpa. His son, Richard,
would spell Talmadge with one L. He spells his name with 2 Ls. He’s still one of us, or we are
one of him. Anyway, so we got along just fine. So, I left with the intelligence school as I did the
brigade.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And so, they tried to keep things that way but I had 24 other units—Department of
Defense or other units—on post doing some very important work. And they were operatives and
all this other stuff that was there to take care of their, either the civilians or the military, in their
regular routine daily work. So, I worked on that and tried to keep up with it and I depended on
�35
the skillset of the people who were running it to make it right. I’d get in there and mix it up and
got helped to change folks around that were not functioning. I got after people that got sick. Got
sick a lot. And one guy we relieved and put him in personnel management arena and relived him
from his job because the doctor told me, “If he drinks one more drink, his kidneys will
crystallize.” His wife left him and they sold the house and he lost his family because of that and
that broke my heart. So, I was sued for…I don’t know… maybe a 180 million dollars for that.
And I was represented by the Army and during the court case—and they were trying to figure
out what to do—and his attorney was trying to get the money because of he’d…racial stuff. He’s
one of my black brothers. We had a Bible study together and all that stuff. So, I was his relative.
Why is he coming after me with that stupid thing? So, I saw him in the hallway with his new
girlfriend and I—his nickname was doc—I said, “Doc, I know you’re here for what you think
you need to get done. And this young lady, I don’t know who she is. But I love you, brother.”
And I walked off. (01:22:46)
Veteran: And I thought man, that was stupid. But the Lord protected me. And so, that job was
made open and other folks went to fight for it. And so, that would—I recommended the 2 ladies
because they were sharp, they protected them, they covered them. So, they sued me for 360
million because neither one of them.. we got a Native American in there to run the EEO shop.
And I didn’t tell them anything. That—they cleared that before it—it was the day before we were
supposed to gather. I flew in from my next assignment. And so, they canned it. I never went to
that proceeding.
Interviewer: I am trying to understand here: why were you being sued at all?
Veteran: Because they didn’t get selected for the position and they thought I just recommended.
And the upstaff—that’s all I could because he was a DM-13 and I could recommend that position
�36
for the 2 12s or 8—anybody who qualified. And these 2 women did. They did excellent work
and I could prove it. And so, once they found out what I did, their representative, they dropped it.
So, that was 2 for 2. I said, “That was crazy.” One of the things that happened when I was there,
the Army ran out of money as far as morale and welfare and they decided we are not going to
fund morale and welfare. You figure it out on your own. I am at a remote station. How do I get
it? (01:24:19)
Veteran: How do—who is going to give me any money? So, I talked to some of my buddies in
other post camps or stations and I researched across the United States and found 3 carnivals. And
they had triple ratings. And I found one that was available and hired them. I brought in a
carnival. And then, I had—he had to make—it was for 4 days. On day 3, if he didn’t bust a
million, he was in trouble and I was in trouble. It cost me $5000 to rewire a place for people to
come and do things. I had a herd of over 125 horses and 5 bulls and that mule was…he’d get up
and anyway. Did nothing much but get up. But nonetheless, so all that time we had rodeos and
people would pay 5 bucks to try to ride those bulls. And then we put about 40 or 50 of those
horses out too. You know, 6 or 7 or 10 at a time and back and get them all cleaned up and put
them back. We’d teach them how to clean them up. And then the post exchange came across
with 10 of thousands of dollars of savings on porcelain ware and appliances and oh my goodness
stuff. Yeah. And then, they also had clothing at the dry goods side of it. So, they had the
commissary and the dry goods side of it at the post exchange provided all kinds of absolute
wonderful things. And so, I just thought to myself: that’s not enough. So, I went downtown and I
got 3 banks at half of 1% interest and I got 5 automobile car companies, give me maximum,
maximum, unbelievable military discounts. (01:26:27)
�37
Veteran: And they connected with the bank. I don’t care; buy it, make a deal on a car, and come
to one of these 3 banks. I don’t care. I am out of it. I don’t want to hear about it, I just want to
know are you going to be there or not? And let me know how your business went. So, those are
the things that we set in place while we had other things going on too. So anyway, we started it
and then the governor of Arizona sent a notice and he was mad at me because they were having
some kind of a annual event in Tombstone. Their annual shootout. And we missed that out.
Come to find out, they went to that and they came to us. Or they went to us and went to them.
And the underground silver mines were open and they had people that went there, came to us, or
vice versa. So, they really made out on our advertisement. We got a television and we got
everything multimedia. We grossed over 1.5 million dollars. And so, we got a piece of that and
put that into all the things that we were doing. We had a GPA, absolutely wonderful golf course.
We had a million gallons of water on it every night. Where can you get a million gallons of
water?
Interviewer: In the middle of Arizona, it might be tough.
Veteran: And we were 5000 feet above sea level. What we would do is I got half the water out of
the water treatment plant that had really been processed as best we could, mixed it with well
water, and then every so many months, I—when we put up—when we fertilized, we also
included in there a spray that would melt down the buildup because you always get buildup when
you mix the water treatment stuff. It crusts. So, we took care of that. (01:28:29)
Veteran: And then we had the right equipment and mowed the areas pristine. Absolutely
wonderful. Downtown golf course really got upset and we had some many stars that would want
to come to see me and I never talked to any of them. I had them go down and talk to the post
commander. Post commander called it ‘Talmadge Follies.’ And he’s the one that got rid of it.
�38
How about that? So anyway, one of the fun things, we had a female black bear show up, about
300+ pounds. And the first time we found her, one of the ladies came out to pick up newspaper
and heard this…And the black bear was drunk in a tree, sleeping. And one of us got in an apple
tree. I didn’t notice what happened to the bear if he eats too many apples. They get kind of
woozy. So, he climbed the tree, she climbed the tree, passed out and she was sleeping. I mean,
she was in a dead sleep so she called the corps of engineers. What are they going to do with that?
So, we had to call animal control downtown. And so, animal control had to call somebody else a
little bit higher than them. And they had ways of handling that kind of thing in the natural
environment. And so, they hit it with a tranquilizer and the thing whimpered down the tree and
broke everybody’s heart. They took pictures of it. Oh, there’s the bear. The bear? I don’t know. It
crashed and passed out. Put her in a vehicle, drove her up to the…to the top of the mountain
there, somewhere away from us, in that area, in the Huachuca Mountain range. (01:30:21)
Veteran: And so, everybody breathed a…it was really great. And I thought to myself: isn’t that
interesting? That was Colonel’s Row. The best garbage is in Colonel’s Row so the bear was after
the garbage in Colonel’s Row. Three weeks later, we got another call. Same bear, different tree.
Same problem, same routine: haul her off into the Huachuca Mountains. Third time, they said,
“We got to—it’s time—we might kill her. We don’t do that.” So, these guys were from the
federal service, you know, the park service. Okay, we are going to fix her this time. Put her out,
drove her to the Huachucas. And they are way down on the other side of the valley. We haven’t
seen her since. But so, that was one of our stories and we made the newspapers and people were
laughing. But we didn’t want to hurt that bear. We didn’t want to hurt that bear so we learned a
lot on that. So, we had some really fun things that happened and we had some sad things that
happened. People die that we were surprised at, that took their lives. One of them went home and
�39
there was drinking buddies and took an early morning—or, took an early afternoon off—and we
found her floating in one of the…what do you call that? Jacuzzi tubs in somebody’s backyard?
The widows went down there and cleaned the place up. I mean, they got her holed up, and
cleaned the place up. We couldn’t keep up with it. Betty Cottrell tried her best. We tried our best.
The military police tried their best. The chaplains tried their best to keep up with this stuff. These
are civilians, work for us. And then another situation…I don’t know the…I never did get the full.
I don’t understand it, but another person shot themselves. (01:32:30)
Veteran: Betty Cottrell and the widows show up. And the brains are blown all over the room.
That room. They cleaned that up. So, the family didn’t have to put up with that. That was
interesting and that was sad. And we didn’t know—you know, you don’t have—how do you
interdict those things? I am in the midst of several situations even currently but it’s different than
that. All of them are different; every one of them are different. Before I left, the last thing—one
of the last things that happened was…No, I had left. In July of ’70—no, July of ’83—I was
reassigned. And I just felt like I didn’t fit in and I wanted things to be done where you could
audit it and you could say this is an ethical, proper operation. And there were some things that
were going on that I rebelled against. And maybe I goofed up at the same time, so I have to take
that. But I was made available for reassignment and I was told my assignment was to come up
into here, Michigan somewhere, or Minnesota, right next to the Great Lakes. A cold assignment
for my retirement assignment. And so, I told my grading officer, who recommended me for this,
I said, “I am taking this that I am being made available to reassignment and I should take that
with a very positively.” And I told the 3-star general that commanded the whole outfit that
Sunday that I said my farewells to him. He said, “For what?” He was livid. (01:34:21)
�40
Veteran: I said, “I am going to work this out and I am going to keep you posted.” Well, I don’t
know what he did but I got a new rater and I got people to write stuff. I approved it before it was
sent in. What a was—that’s stupid. I don’t like that either. So, I called a secret—remember, I was
there before? I was in an Army security agency but I had single units working for me. I was
really administration but I told them what to do to keep out of trouble. So, I talked to some
young captain in the single group and that’s that same group that had combat support. That was
one of the areas that we assigned. So, they found me a job working as an executive officer of a
computer management director in the Army…Army material command. And those computers
crunch all kinds of…what was that? Barcode equipment. And the equipment is valued at over 81
billion dollars. Everything the Army has has got a number on it, somehow. And so, they
managed that plus they had small—they had logistics—12 of those little units or organizations
working for them, underneath them, and I was the executive officer for the director of computer,
like I say, management. And there was an SES, senior executive service, gentleman and I don’t
think he ever had—his name was George—I don’t think he ever had military service. But he was
rebelling because I didn’t go to war college. But the guys in the personnel Army personnel
command said, “Try it.” Anyway, so I got in there and—
Interviewer: So, where was this? (01:36:29)
Veteran: So, I became the executive officer for the…automated management directorate.
Automated—using automation to…equipment. I mean, huge stuff. And in 12 different sites. So,
but I would—for my administration, I’d help him keep his staff straight and somethings are
going funny, I’ll—like for instance, he’d get somebody going on a trip and buying—have lunch
and it’d cost $85. He didn’t like that. So, I was going to—I was a straight man for him.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what was your home base?
�41
Veteran: Home base was in Alexandria again. I was right down the street from the Army’s
military personnel command.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Same neighborhood, different building. Well, alright. So, we got started and while I
was there, I kept getting interrupted because I had to go do something and if he found out I was
doing chaplain—doing something somewhere—trying to help some of the employees. So, at
some point he invited me up to the flag officer’s—at that command—flag officer’s weekly Bible
reading and prayer session. We prayed about everything. And I was the only—I was always a
lieutenant colonel and they were either SES, according to a 1 or 2-star, or brigadiers or higher,
and the commanding general was a 4-star. I was sitting in there. And I sat in there and I went—
sometimes, when George would travel, he would take me with me to St. Louis or to different
commands. And I’d go back and visit and follow up on something. (01:38:23)
Veteran: But it had to do with handling your personnel and goal-oriented behaviors instead of
looking at it and you get the product and you don’t know what you got. You never evaluated
them; you never said, “You know you need to plan. Rog, you need to look at this harder. Here
you are strong, here you are making headway, but you are not doing a thing here. Or you need to
be harder. This is what I want you to do. This will meet my vision if you can do this.” They
didn’t do that. So, I got after them on that. Some of them called them up and they, finally, they
backed down and they said, “Yeah, I guess we need to do it,” because I was…When I…I had
been a consultant with the hospital I got involved with to stop sexual harassment. And we had
one guy from the training who reported to the medical doctor, commander of the hospital, out at
Fort Huachuca, and apologized. He was calling the nurses and some of his staff at all of 2 in the
morning, propositioning them. And he quit doing that. And I guess he was a colonel or lieutenant
�42
colonel, something colonel, as a medical doctor and he was so pleased. So anyway, I got
involved with. And so, he invited me up to that meeting and I got to know some of the close,
really serious, things about them. One of them commanded our biological, chemical and such
laboratories across the United States. And he was really grief-stricken about it because all that
stuff would kill you. And in some of the science laboratories they had this thing cordoned off and
that’s where you had your working with the chemicals or whatever else. (01:40:12)
Veteran: And then you had another chamber and then you had another chamber and you
showered and changed, showered and changed, and then came out showered and changed. And
he was afraid if any of those doors got jarred and a little bit leaked out, it would take out the
whole community. And some of it was very persistent and others were very pervasive, which
means it would multiply. He said, “No control.” He took his life. And that was a rock. I mean,
that was not a happy time. That was terrible but that rocked the entire operation. Large command
just rocked by that. And so, I was up there praying with the rest of them. And we were weeping
together. The senior man up in at Army material command was a civilian. I don’t—he was a—
also, an SES and I don’t know what rank he would have been. But he worked just—he worked
directly as the aide or assistant technician, science technician, to the 4-star in the Army material
command. Came to one of those meetings and he got a call and left. We waited; he came back.
And the report was somebody was driving down a major boulevard…I wish I could remember.
Washington Parkway, or something like that. Traveling at 107 miles an hour, being policed by
the…chased by the local police and drove through his car, throwing his wife through the
windshield. Now, when she hit the pavement, she was dead. So, he came back to us. (01:42:10)
Veteran: The guy that was arrested had an armload of DUIs. Been in jail, been sobered up, been
in jail. Was just out again without a license and I don’t know where he got the car from. And he
�43
was drunk. Anyway, I guess it was within a month or a month and a half I was still there. He told
us what he did. He and his entire family of 7 children went down to the detention center, I had
been in there before, and sat down with the guy, wept with him, and forgave him and walked out.
About a month or so later, a guy by the name of Jim Ralph came into the office. I was on the
promotion list to become a full colonel. I had to be reassigned. At the time that that was
announced, a couple of my home study Bible boy—fellows—said, “Boy, Fort Huachuca was
quiet.” Nobody was talking. So, we just left that fly. One of them was a guy by the name of Bob
Gray. Remember that. So anyway, he was a young black guy. He was a…same rank as myself.
He was one of my students; I taught him at Command General Staff. So anyway, I…George
introduced me to Jim. “I like you to meet General Ralph. This is Roger Talmadge, sir. He is
going to be promoted shortly.” He was talking to Jim. So, I “Nice to see you, sir. Hope you’re
having a good day.” “Yeah. Sure. I hope to see you soon.” Walked out. I didn’t know what that
meant. (01:44:12)
Veteran: So then, I don’t know who did it, but I got a phone call for an interview back at the
Army material—Army personnel command. So, I walked into the office and it was his office.
And he didn’t see me. I talked to his colonel. And the colonel said, “You’re here for an interview
and also evaluation. And we are interviewing and evaluation somebody to take over—be the
director of field systems.” Field—you had in house computers like in this hotel and then you
have those out there that communicate with the hotel and keep up on stuff and feed information
or update outdated stuff. So, that would be the job. Anyway, so I didn’t know it but I talked to
everybody in this little division or group, whatever you call it, because like the other, you had
brigadiers that were in charge of the officers, you had another brigadier for enlisted, another
brigadier for other things, and another one for computer science stuff. Everything, in and out,
�44
externally. So anyway, got all finished up and I didn’t know what to think of it. I had no clue
what I was doing. People were nice, they were polite because they will all be polite to you. And I
just came in the same, talking about everything. And so, I came back to say goodbye to the
general and he was still busy or out. And the colonel said, “Well, it’s nice talking to you. We are
going to visit with others and you have a nice day.” Well, before I went over there, George had
told me you’re the only game in town. I said, “For what?” He said, “Well, I don’t know.” He
didn’t know what to—what was on Jim’s mind. He knew what Jim was doing because he
networked with him. His stuff does what his stuff does, only his is on material and Jim was
people. (01:46:18)
Veteran: So anyway, I said, “Yes, sir. Hope to see you soon.” Walked out. Next Monday, walked
in, “Hi, Colonel. I am back.” And I went in my office. And so, when I got into that office, I had a
couple secretaries. One of them left me and she got promoted. Anybody—any female—that
works for me will get promoted within 18 months, at least 1 grade. She got promoted and went
and worked for somebody else. Some other lady wanted to work to get that promotion where
there was vacant. And so, she came in and she told me, “I don’t fetch things for anybody.” “Oh.
Okay. So, I fetched coffee for her.” But there is other things she didn’t do either and the one that
left was—had a nice personality, was interested in doing a modicum amount of work, and that’s
what we needed. I developed reports and I needed help with those reports. I couldn’t develop my
own reports and—well, I could but, you know, I couldn’t do that. That’s just…I had too much.
So anyway, I talked to some of the—I had a warrant officer by the name of Steve Hagen. He was
brilliant. He was a W-4; he had been around. He’s an old dog. That’s before they had a W-5.
They had just come out. He wasn’t one of them. So anyway, he’d been in this business since he
was a…and he came up through the ranks. He was in combat in Cambodia behind the enemy
�45
lines for a long time, and nobody knows that. I was on this side in Vietnam and he was on that
side in Cambodia. And he was destroying lines of communication that was vital to our survival.
Anyway, I met him. And so, we sat down and said, “We got to get you a new secretary. Well,
let’s get rid of this one first.” I don’t know what they did but she found a better job. Who knows?
(01:48:22)
Veteran: But she never got a promotion. So, then it was a lady…she’s tall, about your height,
slender. Her name is Sherry Marinoff. And she said, “Well, do you mind if I sit here and I will
just sort of look after things while you look for somebody?” “Sure.” I don’t know what to do;
they didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what to do. Anyway, so any secretary that works for
me has got to be, in that job, had to become and office manager. Now, I wasn’t looking for a
secretary. I don’t need somebody to really bring me coffee or hold my hand or anything else. So,
she was nice and she’d bring coffee to me. And one time, when I came in and I got my coffee
and I sat down, she came in my office and put her hands on her hips and says, “You ever touch
that cup again, I’ll break your fingers.” Walked out. I said, “I think she’s going to stay.” I didn’t
know what to do with her. So, here is what happened: we started training her. Steve was training
her what he knew and I trained her what I needed help with. So, Steve would go on a lot of trips
and gather information and they taught me that interior and Steve taught me how to gather
information from the worker. And then, if I was with them, I wouldn’t go talk to the workers per
se, I would talk to the ranking personnel and keep busy so our guys could go down and talk to
the workers uninterrupted. No—none of this filtering stuff. And what they taught us were things
that we repaired the current system. In 1984-85, we solved the X2Y Program problem. You
know, where you go from 6 digits to 8 because you have to put the full year, not…02 could be
�46
1902 or 2002. Okay. Or 2002. So, we solved that. I had time to put that on the new C machine.
(01:50:28)
Veteran: They designed the physical…the physical hardware for the new field machine that you
could pick up and actually carry. And it had a communications system in it with 2…we had a
minimum of 2 satellites, or a maximum of 3, on each—wherever you put one of these devices.
We wrote a million lines of code from the bigger system and loaded it in because this thing had a
lot of capability, storage capability, and compute power to move that stuff around. And Steve
was in the middle of all of it. The physical and the software side of it, the hard and soft. And I
had a guy that was willing to assemble these. And he built the old system and when they wanted
punch cards and all kinds of weird systems and they had a million lines of codes on 11 base
lines. Eleven—I mean, 7 different compilers that were made by different manufacturers and they
didn’t agree with each other. Now, remember I have an order of battle background. I said, “We
are going to get rid of those baselines.” So, we got down to 3. We killed 2 of them. And the other
3 became amenable to each other. I’ll put it that way. And I am smiling like a Cheshire cat
because the idea is whichever one gets weak is the first one to go but these would crunch it down
so all these were the same, all the field ones. And then, we tested. We went to Fort…wherever it
was, in Georgia. And the 24th infantry division and General Schwarzkopf. Ever hear of that
name? He was a 2-star there. Very fine gentleman. Smoked a cigar, swore like a sailor. And that
was the kind of guy he was. (01:52:26)
Veteran: And so, we helped him get a blue star rating for accuracy and timelines of personnel
data. He loved it because all of his systems were catching up just by us building the new system,
the everyday system would catch up with it because, all of a sudden, these changes would appear
and we wouldn’t tell anybody. We’d announce it and the guys down here got it but the upper—
�47
they didn’t understand. And if they got it, they wouldn’t know how to read it anyway. I didn’t. I
didn’t read it, I just—they told me what it was, I believed them. You know, it was magic. So
anyway, so we worked on that and that worked out very fine. Then, the project manager that was
on retired. And here I am, 2 years into this thing, and I now have—I am now the project manager
for a 2 point—I mean, for a $4.6 billion dollar project. And I don’t even know…I don’t know
even how to spell some of the words these guys used to communicate with each other. I had
Steve and his buddies—his buddies—recruit everybody that worked for us because we had
access to the top one half of all civilian or military, doesn’t matter what their rank was,
technicians in the United States Army. And we got them from the National Guard. I had working
for them, I rated them, and the Army Reserve. So, the National Guard bureau recognized what
we were doing and knew me personally. I also worked with the office of the—you know, the
chief of the Army Reservist became the U.S. Army Reserve command in the Pentagon. That’s
now a 4-star. So, the National Guard bureau was a 4-star but the Army Reserve was a 3-star until
it was commanded by this man. Okay, so that’s that. (01:54:27)
Veteran: So, Sherry came in and we traveled around the world and do stuff and I took Europe
and Steve took a little bit with me too. And but he sent the teams at other parts of the world
because I knew the languages there, I am comfortable there. I have never been in Asia except for
Vietnam or wherever and that kind of stuff. And they trained me how to give a briefing on this
stuff. So, finally I started briefing this stuff. I come into Germany for a world-wide personnel
briefing and conference and we talk about detailed stuff so these guys could get the latest but
they learned it through their supervisor line. And their top guys would show up and I don’t know
what they do because they didn’t understand what was going on. One of the things that we did
was General Knopf—he didn’t hire me for my functional knowledge but for my knowledge to,
�48
1., build teams and love that team. That’s it. And he never bothered me. So, Sherry got to a point
where she felt sorry for him. And once in a while, he’d come in and he’d be, you know, he
worked long hours too. And so, she went out and bought him a beautiful porcelain cup and
saucer and little spoon that went with it. And so, he—she was a lovely lady. Lovely to look at,
lovely to talk to, had a brain in her head. And so, she’d bring that and put it on her desk as he sat
down. And he said, “Oh, you can’t do that for me.” She said, “You know what, you don’t want
me to tell you what I told to your—that friend—do you? Good. Enjoy. Goodbye.” And she’d
walk out. (01:56:15)
Veteran: And her husband was this tall and she was this big. And so, whenever I got in trouble
with somebody, Peter would tell me, “Tell my wife, Sherry. She’ll take care of that for you.”
Because she was mean when things went nuts. Okay, so Jim permitted us to cheat. $4.6 billion
dollars…How do you spend that stuff? And everything is uphill. Nobody has ever done this stuff
and you have to test it and make it work. It took a while for General Schwarzkopf’s stuff to work
perfectly well. I mean, because it was just as perfect as humanly possible. Anyway, so what we
did on Highway 50 coming out of Washington D.C., it’s what we called the Mill Par Building.
We rented the whole shebang, the Army did. And we had a piece of it. I don’t know how many
square foot it was. A couple thousand square. And we put 35 men and women in there with lots
of space between them. And all’s we do is once in a while—and Jim knew we were doing this—
we’d back a truck up, open up the chute and dump the money down it, pick it up, and drive
away. Carte blanche--buy what you need. And they bought the first laptops that cost $14,000 and
it had 8 megabytes of something. And then look what we got now. And so, we went from that
and we started with those and they would test stuff and send us side—electronically—side stuff
that we went in and put in our in the building system that impacted all the other desktops. So, we
�49
did that. And then, then we go to—every year, we had to defend our budget. And they couldn’t
figure out—Congress couldn’t figure out when our button was pushed to report. You’re always
ahead of time within your budget. You weren’t always this way. Something funny is going on.
I’d send a sergeant E-6 over there sometimes, or maybe Steve or somebody else. I wouldn’t go.
(01:58:27)
Veteran: What do they need me for? I am busy; I got things to do. and I don’t know—I didn’t
even know those people. do you know anybody? I don’t know anybody in Congress. And the
sergeant—and the reason they did—the sergeant, I mean, the general and Jim Ralph supported
that because they had the answers. I don’t. I’d have to ask them. Why ask them? And I got in
front of them once, a couple times, and I told them who is going to brief them when they came to
my office, these high ranking, mostly military. And I said, “Staff Sergeant Jones is going to talk
to you about A, B, N, F and Warrant officer Jones over here, or Steve, is going to talk to you
about the intern—everything in between plus G. but you have to have it in sequence, I just told
you, because they told me that’s logical and if you do it sequentially like this, you get lost and I
am lost and so please trust me what I just said. If you have any questions, I am still—I will be
sitting right here.” And so, they got finished with the sergeant and they asked him his questions.
He said, “That’ll be talked about in so and so. That’ll be talked about in so and so. Yes, I’ll
review that for you right now.” And then when Steve or the warrant officer did, they walked
away with a confidence that this system was complicated and it’s building—being built—
systematically with strength and conviction and it’s going to work. And when your underlings
get it and you start seeing the results yourself, you’ll be able to—by those clear facts, receive it
and support it and watt it or help the people so when they come into—the new ones will learn
�50
because the new system and we had people that were retiring. So alright. So, they got that
started. (02:00:18)
Veteran: Got that started. And let’s see…what else did we do…I remember one time—one time
we had to go in and we had to turn on a lot of…almost all the satellites because we had all—we
had 22,000 of those boxes out there. 22,0000 would replace all the stuff that’s in the building.
Any building in the world, we had to test. You know what the light bill on that was? $81 million
dollars. Getting back to Sherry Marinoff. I’d come back from a trip and I had a framework and I
just filled it in with a few words: this is my report. I walked away. Later that day, she would give
me the full thing and very seldom did I even have to change any because we had some basic
things that we’d been talking about all along. She had that, all she had to do was take this out,
move this over here and put this in to say this satisfies are with it. So, we got across the board
with these 22, 000 machines. We got—it was 99.6% accurate and no older than 48 hours. When I
inherited, they were sometimes 18 months old and one standard deviation accuracy. That’s 28%.
That’s trash.
Interviewer: So, what kind of data or information are we talking about here, when you are
getting this? (02:02:09)
Veteran: The information that I have on you, we’d pull it up in 99.6% accurate. And the latest
data we have when you got that new car and registered this morning. And what color it is. And
by the way, you haven’t had it inspected.
Interviewer: Very good.
Veteran: That’s nuts, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Mhmm.
�51
Veteran: Now, let me tell you what happened to Schwarzkopf. Went into—Steve had a nice
relationship with General Schwarzkopf. General Schwarzkopf would scream at Steve Hagan and
Steve Hagan would return in like kind. So, everybody was up on plane. So, went in there and
said, “You know, we have got this system and you have told us that you have evaluated yourself
and all your people reporting to you that it’s doing well for you, it’s fast and it’s accurate and it’s
usable. It’s a usable form for you and your team. And you’re getting good grades from those that
grade what you do here. We need to start developing our wartime system.” And right in the
middle of that, he says, “You can’t touch it. You touch it and I’ll have you run off this
installation.” Well, going back to the 1st Battalion, 8th Cav, 1st Cav Division in Vietnam, our
operations officer was a guy by the name of Edward Berber. He was a major in the United States
Army. At the time that General Schwarzkopf blew his top, we made a couple phone calls out to
the 7th Division near Coronado, out in that area in California. Major General Ed Berber was
commanding. “Say, General Berber. I am from your old battalion. You were the operations
officer. I came in later. I need a site to test this system.” He says, “Come on out. Let’s talk.”
Interviewer: Alright. (02:04:17)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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TalmadgeR2152V4
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Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
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2017-09
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 4), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge returned from his second tour in Vietnam in 1972 to receive training at Command General Staff College in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. He graduated in June 1973 from Command General Staff College and then attended the University of Kansas to earn a master’s degree in business administration. Roger graduated from the University of Kansas at the end of 1974. He worked during this time as an instructor at the Command General Staff College for 4 years. During his last 2 years at Fort Leavenworth, Roger was actively involved in prison ministry. He then was transferred for an assignment at the Military Personnel Management Center in Washington D.C. By 1979, Roger had become the head chaplain of his unit. He received orders to Fort Huachuca, Arizona in 1981, where he worked in personnel management. He remained at Fort Huachuca until 1983. Afterwards, he worked as an executive officer of the automated management directorate in Alexandria in Washington D.C.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ae9c8c2ba3880edf22312455d2630655.mp4
08104161569f100d03eccdc2d1ed8e79
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2452dee325560cc7fa79fde2a0515c88.pdf
acb9d5f545322589cd11fa5a5a7ade68
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Talmadge
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 1:37:52
Interviewer: Alright, we are continuing Roger Talmadge’s interview and we had worked
our way through most of your military career. Now, we had gotten into what I gather was
your last assignment. You were based in Alexandria, Virginia. You were essentially in
charge of the whole set of computers that the Army used on various bases with individual
units around the world. So, you were stuck kind of outside of Washington, outside of the
Pentagon? Okay. And you had been developing systems in the last piece of the last episode.
You were talking about how you had already done a system for the 24th Division that
General Norman Schwarzkopf was in charge of down in Georgia. And you had gone back
to him and asked, well, can we come back and sort of upgrade or fix it and he didn’t want
anyone to touch anything.
Veteran: We wanted to go to a war time system and leave the peace time system. So, he rebuffed
us and threw us out of the office.
Interviewer: Alright. And then, somebody that you knew, or knew of, from your 1st
Cavalry days was commanding a division elsewhere and he agreed to let you come in. So,
sort of who was that? Where were they?
�Veteran: Alright, what General Schwarzkopf did: he complained to Washington D.C.
leadership—somebody, I don’t know who it is—that, doggone it, he’s over here, he’s in a
combat zone. I think it was in 1990s time frame. And one of the sergeants that is here this
morning went with the warrant officer. And so, to respond—Washington’s response was to send
some subject matter experts to the General’s headquarters and, wherever it was, in the war effort
in the Middle East. And they gave a briefing on the system generally. And as they got to a point
where okay, fine, and just general information got out. And so, General Schwarzkopf left and as
he was leaving, one of his aides had waved to Steve to come on. And so, they went with the—he
went with the general back to his office and there is where he told him, “This system that we’ve
got for you is very, very simple. It is easy to use.” And he started bellowing about it, “Well,
that’s fine but I expected a war time system and I don’t know what you are talking about in the
briefing just now but I want to see it.” (00:02:44)
Veteran: He said, “Alright. Well, it’s so simple that any simpleton can run it. It doesn’t matter
who you are.” He said, “Now, what you want on—what I want you to do is hit this key and this
key and over here, push it all the way down together at the same time.” And when he did that,
the screen of his computer blinked and it came up: war time system. What it did: it was a faster
system than the system he was using because it dumped 30…66% of his database and refreshed
it with—keeping the names and units where people were assigned and such pertinent information
about the soldier. But it also included acronyms and things like that that you don’t use in
peacetime, in war time, like WIA: wounded in action; KIA: killed in action; MIA: missing in
action; and other kinds of things that did not appear in peacetime system. But all of it,
dependents data and things like that was gone. Detailed information about his training, past
assignments, all gone. Had a skeleton and it was like a form: you just read it and you are done. It
�was one page. So, I think the general was pleased but he still threw Steve out of the office. Steve
was [unintelligible]
Interviewer: Alright. Now, I guess you were…as you were kind of setting this up, you were
net referencing being in a warzone in the ‘90s. Now, Gulf War is 1991. You had retired in
’89. (00:04:27)
Veteran: Yes, so I found this out after—
Interviewer: So, you were aware of this later. Okay, so there was sort of an epilogue to the
story about Schwarzkopf not wanting the upgrade to his system when you tried to give it to
him.
Veteran: And then when he got it, he was complaining he didn’t have it. And sure enough, it was
on his system all—it was laying in the background. And all he had to do was hit it.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Now Ed Berber, who tested the system when he went over there, he knew the system. I
mean, he practiced this in person in his own office. And so, he didn’t have that question.
Interviewer: Okay. And then what unit had he been commanding when you sent your guys
to him? Was he on the west coast at that point?
Veteran: Well, Ed? Or…?
Interviewer: Ed. Because you were—basically, because Schwarzkopf wouldn’t take—
didn’t want to be the one—
Veteran: He was in Georgia.
�Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we went…we took our case and pleaded with the commander of the 7th U.S.
infantry division and he was in California. And so, it was a subsequent assignment to that. He
was a 2-star; he moved up to 3-star and so forth, eventually 4. But at his later assignments, when
he was out in the war time environment, he knew the system because he tested it. And he went
down there with his brigade commanders and battalion commanders. Well, in the gymnasium—
and they broke it down into little cubicles—and they would communicate with each other. And it
worked. And they used satellite communication. They were sitting there in one building. The
satellite was still communicating. But interesting thing about the box: two men could carry it and
it finally became a laptop. But the box itself. If you are in a combat situation or even a training
situation and you dropped it off the 2 ½ or 5-ton truck, it could survive that. If a tank drove over
it, it wouldn’t survive that. So, let’s say it was my computer and the tank drove over it and in
maneuvers it just happened to fall off the truck and the tank was making a turn and it got wiped
out. All’s I’d have to do is go down to the supply room, get myself another command lift
computer, bring it in, plug it in, type in my username and my password, and 1 of 2 satellites
would reload that thing to my last finger touch on the keyboard. (00:06:49)
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: And that was universal.
Interviewer: And today that doesn’t sound so surprising with everything in the cloud
somewhere but we are talking late 1980s at this point and…
�Veteran: 1980 technology and but it was 21st century philosophy. And all’s we did is we updated
all along the way. And when they finally got the laptops, they were able to get all that stuff in
there and had 1 baseline instead of 3.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, roughly when did this happen? When did you have to start using
that system?
Veteran: They—we started using it in live in peacetime mode.
Interviewer: Yeah. But I meant in what year was it that you were going to the 7th Division
and…?
Veteran: Oh, the 7th Division was…I think it was about ’85-’86, maybe ’87, in that timeframe.
And so, I’d fly out to California and we’d have our little soldier back and forth talk and then we
would scope out with him and his folks. They worked directly with us because he couldn’t spend
a lot of time with us. And how we need to organize and command post exercise, on post, in one
of the gymnasiums. Later on, he put it out in his training areas and they are separate physically
but they are doing the same thing they’re doing in the gymnasiums. They would practice in the
gym, took it out here, and it still worked. And he’d walk around and…just look around, see
what’s going on. (00:08:29)
Veteran: So, the peacetime system worked very well and that’s where we got our statistics of
99.6% accuracy. And I ordered them in 48 hours. So, the wartime system was super fast because
it had a lot of room. It could expand if you needed it for something. So, that started the show up
as I was leaving in 1989 but it didn’t get into the battlefield until 1990. Now, they used it when
they went into Panama. I was already out of the service. They used it when they went into
Panama and but they also had the backup system working at the same time. So, they learned
�something from that which helped them further improve it before it went overseas to the Middle
East units deployed.
Interviewer: Alright. So now, what other kind of initiatives and projects did you run while
you were in that last assignment?
Veteran: The last assignment I was…when I reported in, there was a 2-star general, commander
of the Army personnel command. And I just went up there and I just checked in like I would
anybody else. “I am just arriving and I am your senior chaplain.” He said, “Well, that’s fine.” We
visit a little bit. He was at Fort Bragg in the 101st, or one of those, and 82nd airborne. And so, we
heard he injured himself on one of his parachute jumps. So, we were watching him when
eventually they retired him out of that because he did, he really did, hurt himself. But in the
meantime, he was just a place where he could be functional in a positive way because he was a
very good motivator and knew about everything that was going on, including he got involved
with what we were doing. (00:10:40)
Veteran: That was part of bringing the personnel management system into reality in the 21st
century. Various employees. So, we continued our several Bible studies, and he was aware of
that too, in the confines of those office buildings, the 2 buildings. And so, that worked out very
well. The second time around—this was the second time I was in that command—and in my
organization the first time, where I was in officer’s management, we had a situation. One of my
folks who lived in Maryland…husband took his life. And so, I got involved in that and I traveled
from Alexandria, Virginia to where she was at her mother and spent some time with her. She was
just absolutely come undone. And the—she had a survivor assistance officer but nobody would
listen to her so we took care of that. And I kept in touch with her. And she slowly got perspective
on it; she was grieving. Well, I was faced with the same situation here. The gentleman that took
�his life in a second tour there, General Ralph and myself and others, we went to the funeral and
General Ralph drove. And I think it was in West Virginia; I am not exactly 100% sure. But it
was some distance. Took him an hour and a half or two to get there. And we went to the funeral
and we listened to all the little stories and what everybody had to say. (00:12:35)
Veteran: And what happened was he seemed to be disturbed and we got close to him. One of my
warrant officers who is really close to everybody, he helped me by recruiting a lot of these guys
that came in with their skillsets. And really tried to encourage them and he seemed to bubble up.
He went home to spend…oh, I don’t know? Maybe a week or month, whatever it was, his
normal time off on his vacation time that is authorized. And towards the end of it, he took his
life. And so, we were absolutely shocked by that. So, we went to the funeral and we had military
honors at the graveside. And the general had me present the flag to the…I guess it was his
mother. I don’t know what the deal was with the wife. I forget that part of it but son was there.
And so, we spent some time with him. But gosh, what they told us was that he came there and he
was fine and he went fishing with him. I guess they even went hunting together. They just—
normal things that you do when you’re out in the wonderful, beautiful countryside of West
Virginia. And once in a while, the guys would call and he’d say, “Yeah, doing great.” But then
they went shopping one day and he put signs on the back bedroom door, ‘do not enter,’ ‘do not
come in this room,’ all that kind of stuff. I don’t know what else he put on it. And he took his life
and they came home to that. And so, that was…that was a hard trip to…that was a hard trip to
build…to support them and it took a long time for them to get perspective on that. (00:14:28)
Veteran: Very, very difficult. So, that gave me a little background before we visited that other
fellow I think I told you about, David Duckworth. And we did some investigating and there was
nothing to substantiate that he took his life. So, that was not a suicide. These were definitely
�suicides. And of course, the police got the weapons and all that stuff and they checked it,
fingerprints, and it took a while for them to—they had primary faced evidence to support their
conclusion. The other one had nothing. So, that—this was a heartbreak for us and that was a
shock at the same time. So, we had normal things that took place and we worked side by side
with everybody to do the work of those things.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, is there a point here where you start to think that maybe it is
time to retire? Or is that a signal being given to you by anybody else? Because eventually
you do go out in ’89. So, what leads into that?
Veteran: Well, so I had been there 5 years and they figured that I was homesteading or
something but we were getting—we were trying to birth a project that needed that extra…it
needed consistency of leadership in order to get ‘er done. Plus, the rapport we had with
commanders everywhere—they would go into a division, a corps, and then later on the battalions
and whatever else. And so, they trusted what we were doing and such a point where we would
suggest that this is what—this is kind of a thing you ought to do and as a training exercise. And
we would either have somebody go over there and help them or we would go over and help.
(00:16:22)
Veteran: But mostly our guys would go over and assist a unit. It doesn’t matter what size it was.
And that what’s made it rain and we found out a lot of mistakes or things that we just didn’t
understand, we figured them out in the field. And so, that really was a plus for the unit and us.
Well, at some point we got a new general in and he was going to clean house. So, okay. They—
when I got in that position in 1984, they upgraded from a lieutenant to a full colonel. I think I
mentioned to you I had a couple secretaries. The last one came on as a volunteer and finally I
hired her. Sherry Marinoff.
�Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And because she talked directly, I’d go to the Pentagon and I’d talk directly to the
office of the secretaries. In other words, Navy, Army, whatever. Because we networked with the
dependents—the DR system where they get their benefits because they are bonified and
validated dependent. So, but all the services are connected with that same system. So, we’d get
with the Navy and then we’d get with the Navy, the Marines, and we’d get with the Air Force
and the rest of them with the idea that our data that goes into our database needs to have the same
structure. Now, one of the things that didn’t work for the other departments was the fact that they
still had a 6-digit field for date and we fixed that. And so, what you have to do, you have to go
through all your software development and you have to move it and it impacts stuff down here so
you have to move that stuff too. Anyway, it takes—it’s a structural problem. (00:18:24)
Veteran: And so, we did that and so they did it too. And their systems are different than ours.
They might have that block somewhere else in the total of their software but as long as it is the
same, it is compatible. So, we worked on differences. I worked with the captain or 06 of the
department of the Navy, Marine Corps, and I worked with the 06 colonels in another department.
Well, my secretaries would call on all of them. One side would do this or do that or maybe we
are going to have some kind of a combined thing and somebody is pushing it, an outside agency
we need to get involved and they need to be with us, they need to be in it too. And so, because of
her direct contact, because that was in her job description, they promoted her to secretary to be
for a general officer. That was cool. So, she…so then she left me. The Navy recruited her out
of—right out of my office. And I pretended like, “Oh, everything is going to be fine.” I don’t like
her being gone because I would just hand stuff to her and walk away; it was done. And the other
guys that would travel too, not just myself, but they’d come in with these notes and she had this
�shelf. She would just take the shelf, insert it, and then put in the changes and it was done. She
could do it really well. Well, the person that replaced her…we just had a volunteer in there for a
while. So, 6 months went by. I got a phone call and this real sheepish voice says, “Can I come
back?” I said, “Well, it’s vacant.” So, we got her back and then we, a couple of us, went in my
office and sat down with us. “Now, what happened?” Somebody in the Department of the Navy
had hired her. Personnel management kinds of things and it was fine. (00:20:32)
Veteran: And they didn’t give her a job description. They gave her a desk and she was out here
with several ladies, 1, 2, 3, whatever, 4 of them. And so, one of the…lieutenant commanders, I
guess, he came up to her and she said, “I need a job description. I want to know what I am
supposed to be doing here. I am earning all this nice money and I want to contribute.” And he
says, “You are contributing. Just come to work and look good.” And he walked away. So, she
put up with that for a while, then she called us. She came back working for less money but she
was one of the men, one of the boys, and that kind of stuff. And so was her husband. But they
didn’t care about her husband; they didn’t care about Pete. They were interested in her. So, that
was a hard lesson for her. When I left, when I retired, she went over and worked for either the
Navy or Air Force, the inspector general office. And she was looking at the west side of the
Pentagon when it blew up on 9/11/01. The reason I got out was…they wanted me to stay in.
General Ralph was gone and a replacement came in and he wanted to clean shop. And so, what
they were telling me is, “Well, we could send you to Europe and you could be the chief of
automation for the United States Army there.” And I thought about that. (00:22:20)
Veteran: Do I want to be moving the family and all that stuff for 3 years? And I’d come back
here a foreigner almost and try to look for a second job. “I don’t think that would work very
well.” “Well, we will send you back to Fort Huachuca and you can run their computer system.”
�They didn’t want—they wanted me to stay in computer systems, not personnel or intelligence or
anything with the infantry. “So, you know, this is a good wind down. You can earn big money.”
Whenever I got promoted, I had been in so long, I just went to the top level pay scale thing. So,
that was, you know, that was nice. And I was thinking about that. Well, that’s really nice too.
That was kind of far from everything. So, they’re thinking of all these things and I—they could
send me to. One of them was become the deputy chief of staff for personnel, work for General
Elton, who was in Panama. And that’s the Southern Command, whatever you call that. And they
were under lockdown because of the rebels and all that stuff and there was a large military
facility there. And all the dependents were placed within that thing and couldn’t really go out to
do what you normally could have done before because of the rebels and their lives were in
danger. And I don’t want to get in danger. I got into some intelligence reports, finding out just
what the depth of this stuff was. So, finally I said, “I don’t know.” The Lord said, “Why don’t
you just go to Rowan Oak?” Rowan Oak, Virginia. Rowan Oak. Two words. I don’t know. So,
we went to Roanoke in May—I mean, March—of 2000…I mean, 1989. We went looking around
and we found a house that was out in the city but up in the mountains and it had this…I wanted
trees and be next to water, like I was in the lake. Well, the best of—the closest we got to was a
swimming pool. (00:24:27)
Veteran: 19,000 gallon swimming pool. Everything else was there, so—and it was inexpensive.
It was the cheapest house on the block. So, whatever it was, we needed to fix it up. Okay. So, we
put a contract on that rascal and got it and we are still in it today. But when we got that thing and
moved our—we moved out, down there, and I retired out at the end of July in 1989. And then
there we started a new chapter in our lives. One of the first things we did is work on the house
and when I ran out of money, I needed to find a job. And Disabled American Veterans got ahold
�of me and not only did I become one of their volunteers, but they hired me to start running one of
their fiscal operations in the Roanoke Valley. And so, after about a year, year and a half of that,
they called me to Ruthville where they had a Virginia, Department of Virginia, conference of
some sort. And they interviewed me and they hired me also, at the same time, to run several
thrift stores in the commonwealth of Virginia. And they had rules but some places just ignored
them and there was a lot of stuff disappearing and there was—they were not making money.
They went out of business 2 or 3 times and hired the same people back because they didn’t know
anybody else. And I didn’t know anybody except for those guys. So, I told them, “If you hire me,
you also get my consultant. And if you don’t like my consultant, you don’t need me.” “What
consultant?” I said, “The Lord Jesus Christ.” “Okay. Meeting adjourned. We will call you later.”
(00:26:34)
Veteran: They called me, they hired me. So, they had to put up with the Lord and myself. And
that was a problem because some folks were really doing some bad things as far as business
management. Accounting was needing upgrading. My hands were tied; I had to use their
accountant and their banks. And some mail came into me in Roanoke. It was missent. It should
have been going to Richmond, somebody in Richmond, but not me. And I opened it up and what
it was was a bank account in Richmond some accountant had. It was $64,000 for Disabled
American Veterans’ fiscal operation. And he was using the money to lend out to high risk folks
that needed loans. So, I got that money and then we leaned on him and I got another $17,000 out
of him. And then a local accounting service, we got with them, and the guy that I talked to was
one of the partners of it. His name was David Rowan and he used to be the president of the
Society for Accounting in a college in north Virginia. So, he coached me. He said, “You know,
you’re going to have to do something.” And so, we looked around and so we got involved with
�him and he straightened all this mess out. And once it got straightened out, the first clear year we
made over 1.3 million, we grossed. The next year was 1.5 and, all of a sudden, that disappeared.
(00:28:19)
Veteran: There was a clause in my contract that said when I worked—anybody working for the
division—the Department of Virginia—for the…Any residual at the end of the year they got
10% off the top during the year. And if there is anything leftover, they got that too. Hmmm.
$365,000 was redistributed amongst 44 chapters. My backup money for growth was gone. And
that happened about—after about 5 or 6 years I was with them. And so, I struggled to get that
squared away. Did some other things and finally, after about 21 years in that, I just bowed out of
it. It was…the leadership was coming in; they couldn’t read reports. The—David Rowan would
come over and try to educate them. They were uneducated. They weren’t—they didn’t have
business or accounting or anything where you’d get it in college, you’d get it in your—as an
undergraduate. And so, I just got out of that mess. In the meantime, in 1992, I was elected as the
Department Chaplain for the state of Virginia, and I kept that until 2013. And I was the only one
that did that. But what we did: we brought a team on board. It wasn’t a one man show. And
everybody got involved and so that made it a community. And when we had problems within the
community, in other words, the growing pains of society, and we had that amongst ourselves, we
would treat it. and we would have the folks that were—it doesn’t matter who it was—they would
get involved in it so it was a community resolution. (00:30:18)
Veteran: And we didn’t violate our mores or our person at all. And so, that was helpful. And the
idea was that we would become faithful and work for the good of our veterans through this
organization that has tentacles in various solutions out there, like the VA medical center or
various programs. And the government has things that they do to help veterans and families. So,
�we got involves with that so that gave me a strong background with working families. And I got
involved with quite a few of those through the thrift store operation. But it was a—it was a very
high-end challenge. I was paid for that and for the thrift store. But as far as whatever I did as a
chaplain, that was gratis to them. And but it was educational for me too. I even got the
opportunity to speak in various churches around in the commonwealth of Virginia, color or not,
and then that was excellent. One family of color adopted one of my sons and then they’d go
shopping together and carry on and just like a parent would a child and it’s acting up in the
shopping mall and they’d—their dialogue was just hilarious. But you know, “Mom, I want that.”
“No, you can’t have that.” That kind of thing. But that was good, that was positive, because we
needed that. A lot of folks are—they stay away from problems like that and why don’t you just
treat them. Just come at them full bore and but with a bit of grace and make those things change.
And so, that helped. We didn’t have that as a normal fare but my golly after about 3 or 4 years
we started, it started blooming and it stayed with us for as long as I was in there. (00:32:23)
Veteran: And I brought in a lot of folks. They came onboard and we had a tremendous choir and
those people were also giving as far as helping people that would come into some of our
meetings, conventions, throughout the year. We had 3 of them a year and so that was educational
and very rewarding doing that. I had open heart surgery on October, 2012, and I learned about it
in 1984. A flight surgeon in the Pentagon said, “You have a heart flutter. They call it atrial
fibrillation. And your liquor is also messed up. It’s going the wrong way. And so, the left side is
malfunctioning and it’s going to impact your heart somehow.” And what it was…Research
indicated that the Agent Orange, which was found in my blood, was causing that left electrical
false transmission. And it got strong that way so they put me on some medicine to help but it
really didn’t. And so, I went to…I had pseudo heart attacks a couple times in 1990 alone and
�they even sent me down to Duke to the VA there because it is a higher-level capability. And they
said, “It is your electrical problem.” And so, they cardioverted me and it went to a normal sinus
rhythm. Boy, I had a surge of power. (00:34:05)
Veteran: It’s amazing because I had a good, oxygenated blood flow. That was great but it only
lasted about a couple weeks and then it would shut down. And the medicine they gave me I
became allergic to and it, in one case, my eyes and my lungs started silting. So, I got off that
stuff quickly and I didn’t get on anything else. So, by and by, I retired and of course in 1990 I—
during that early retired years—that’s when I had some of this 1990 stuff pop up. And then later
on, I kept up with the civilian end of VA Salem. VA Salem really tried to help but they didn’t
have the talent that the local hospitals had. So, finally my mitral valve failed. I—it wouldn’t
close properly so I had half. If you are supposed to have X coming in, I had half an X when this
thing failed. So, I was tired all the time and my chest hurt me some time. I mean, there was
nothing wrong with it except it was—didn’t have enough blood. My head, it was hard to do
anything seriously cognitively because it didn’t have the oxygenated blood that you should have.
And these are things that they were training me. So, we got into the decision: do I have open
heart surgery? And we did and they took it out and they took the—it has 3 little feathers. They
were extended and they just cut, twisted, and so it was coming this way. So, the doctor, he’s a
little guy, he had to get on a soapbox to stand over me while I was in the operating room. He had
been there for years. And so he took it out, cleaned the place where he took it out, and then he
took the—got rid of the—he trimmed it, he sculptured these…the end of it, and then put a
composite ring in there and put it back and then he put full pressure on it. And when that thing
was like this, nothing got through. (00:36:15)
�Veteran: It got through when it was open but it didn’t when it locked up like that. The left
ventricle didn’t flush back. I had a surge of energy on that one. And that worked very well. so
that was—and so, I have been increasing my…I guess you call it exercise. Walking and toning as
far as that kind of thing. So, that’s been good. Now, in this time, when we first moved into
Roanoke, our children were—one of them was finishing up high school and the others were
coming along behind him. So, as soon as Andrew turned—the eldest—turned 17, I took him
down to Reserve Boulevard to the National Guard and we signed him up. He got in the National
Guard when he was 17 and then he went to Virginia Tech and got in the ROTC program and he
was also had his National Guard training, same time. And then he got into Highty-Tighties,
which is a really superb military marching band. They are on the caliber of what West Point has
or BMI. And so, they even marched in one of the inaugurations. I think Mrs. Roosevelt put the
lanyard around, inside out, on the uniform. And today they wear it inside out on the uniform. The
lanyard from her. So, that’s kind of a little tradition. So, he did very well and such and then
Shawn came along and he had allergies so he couldn’t get in at 17. So, he went into the Virginia
Tech and we checked him out with various doctors because I almost got—I almost didn’t get my
direct commission because I had this chronic whatever it was, sinus, and really it was seasonal
hay fever. And once they determined he had the same thing, then he got in the service.
(00:38:28)
Veteran: Now, David was—tore his—number 3 son, tore his leg up in a lacrosse game. They put
metal in it and the military will not take you because you’ll be a problem. And then when
Daniel—soon as he was itching to go down there—and so, he went down there and also got in
the National Guard at the age of 17. So, we started off the boys that way and then some time later
on, not very many years later my oldest grandson from my first marriage joined the Navy, went
�to Annapolis and now is serving in special operations. Married a woman who is also graduated
from the Naval academy and she’s a facility engineer at Portsmouth Naval Hospital. And so,
between them they gave us great grandbaby number 6 and 7 and each one is named after a Navy
Seal that has died recently. And that’s what they do. There’s a ring of them—not all ladies do
this—and that took our unit but many of them do so they are keeping their beloved comrades that
they have known alive.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, another side of things, I think before we began the interviews or
somewhere in there, you mentioned something about having multiple different academic
degrees. I think you talked about you had a bachelor’s degree, you had an MBA. Did you
go on to others at different points? (00:40:11)
Veteran: When I was at the Command General Staff College, I was teaching management and so
some of the leadership within the faculty would say, “Well, why don’t you work…You’ve got all
the basic stuff done and you came out with—at the top at the end of your class. So, all’s you
have to do is write a thesis that will cover something, either the science part or the arts part.” So,
I talked to them a little about this surveillance in depth thing and the arts part is knowing military
lures and postures and the implications of those things and the strengths and weaknesses and so
forth. And but the arts part—the science part was knowing how to use…and I used math as a tool
to structure the basic concept that implemented the surveillance in depth process. So, you take
knowledge of how to deploy the military forces within the context of what the math was telling
you. Because it would—you’d set the terrain up into little cells based on the geographic
structure. And then, you’d give it a unique alpha numeric number and then you’d run a…you
could run a…and I had a numbers book full of random numbers and you could randomly
everyday change that, the alpha numeric number, and you’d just send that out in classified mode
�and in there you would also drop in…you had a list over here and you could run the—run a
random alpha numeric number against that to figure out where to put these different things. And
if you have something that is duplicating here, you’d get rid of one and move it over here. So,
you’d have—you’d have some—you could make a decision. And when it was published, they
had the breakdown of the people and then whoever was going out into anywhere into this area
that you have restructured into alpha numeric portions of real estate. (00:42:50)
Veteran: Then, they would be told, “Well, today in this area we are going to have people and in
this, this area, we are just going to have surveillance. And at sundown, we’re going to have a
machine gun around here. We always have an aircraft helicopter drive by and just shoot the place
up and leave because it was an all-fire zone. If we had no fire zones, we’d make sure that those
were always blocked out. We just put visual on them and we would tell the enemy they didn’t
know the difference. And—or, if we were going to put somebody out and then we would do
something else and pick them up over here. So, we’d have no fire here and no fire here and while
they are moving, this stretch of real estate they are coming through we would just have visual but
no contact.” So, we tried to figure in all that. I wrote a paper on it. And it was voluminous, it was
terrible, it was unbelievable, but I was able to get it down to with charge graphs and a sampling
of the mathematical structure for all this in 125 pages. So, I got a master’s degree of military arts
and another master’s degree of military science. (00:44:09)
Veteran: So, I left that and then when I got out of the service in 2002, I was attending First
Baptist Church in Roanoke, Virginia and we got—our pastor had retired after 40 years? I don’t
know. Long time. And so, we got a new pastor in and he was an evangelist; he wanted to do
things. So, he appointed me as his mission minister and I didn’t have any formal training in that,
I just read the Bible and had Bible studies and all that stuff everywhere. And I belonged to the
�Gideons International, so I was out doing things and learning how to do those things too.
Speaking in churches about what God is doing around the world and the impact of having access
to over—into 215 countries, speaking 93 different languages fluently. Because they are all
natives. We just recruit natives and then turn them out. Alright, so he wanted me to do that. So,
what I did is I got into that and after…I got in 2002, so after 2003 or 4, I connected with a large
church in Atlanta, Georgia. Woodstock Baptist Church in Georgia. And I hung out with them for
2 years and they were training me, and several other guys around America, how to become
mission pastors because nobody—there is no training for that. You go to the seminary and
they’re talking all this other stuff, but they don’t touch on—they just say—they structure that and
then walk away. They don’t tell you how to do it. And so, they are teaching me how to do it .and
so, one of the things that you do is you motivate people in the pews to get involved. Okay…And
so, you tell them? No, motivate them. You have to get—you have to sort of get alongside of
them and stand up with them. (00:46:20)
Veteran: So, one of the first things we taught them was—and I went to the International Mission
Board in Richmond. And so, they gave me outlines of training that they trained missionaries, so I
brought that back and I started implementing that. So, they’d come out and I…one of the things
we teach everybody is how to be an intercessor prayer person, but walking. So, prayer walking
they called it. And but you could do it in your car when you were driving, eyes open of course,
and there’s all kinds of things you can do with it. And you’re not walking up to people and
saying, “Hey bub, my name is Roger. I am…Do you know the Lord? If you don’t, you’re going
to go to hell.” No, no, you don’t do that. What you do is you see people and you talk to God
about people instead of talking to people about God. So, some folks really got interested in that,
so they tried it. Maybe about 15 of them. And they went out trying this stuff and then we took it
�to Berlin, and we took it to different parts of Asia. We took it to China, Taiwan. We took it to
Canada. We did some other things too. In Canada we built a missionary center in Prince Edward
Island and also in Alberta. And then we came back to Alberta and built housing for students. But
we still went out in the community prayer walking. And the result—some things started
happening. So, they came back and told their buddies, “I did this; all of a sudden, that
happened.” “Really?” And so, all of a sudden, 15 became 30. (00:48:15)
Veteran: And then the other thing is that they taught the international level missionaries you got
to have a servant’s heart. So, if you were the missionary, say—it doesn’t matter where you were.
You could be somewhere in Kenya or somewhere in the world. And so, we’d go there. We could
be in South America with you. And you had a schedule and we had a schedule laid out but
sometimes, either weather or opportunity would change and so we’d get up one day and we were
supposed to go to the hospital and instead, we went to the schools. And you’d change that
because of the opportunity popped up. You don’t get that every day, so we’d go to the schools.
And the attitude of the men and women who went was we can do that. And so, that got out. And
they liked that. The other thing that happened was in doing that, we didn’t have always an
ordained minister in charge of the team. We had somebody that was interested in the country,
maybe had the language, something. Maybe they had an interest in it because their background
ancestry came from wherever. And so, they would be in charge, but they would have to come
back and let us know what was happening. And that became inflammatory after a while. So, then
the other thing that we did, when we had people visit our church, we would visit them. And some
people would visit, you know, for a week and go back a second week and then drop it. What we
did: we put them in by zip code and we built—we eventually built 20 teams of 2 or 3 people.
�And every Wednesday we would send out at least 10 teams. And it wasn’t the same 10 teams.
Well, some folks would go maybe twice a month, once a month. Whatever. (00:50:14)
Veteran: And so, that worked out very well and they liked the result. Same thing, prayer walking.
And then we had a 3 step way of approaching: you open the door and let them do all the talking
and you look for the hook and wherever the hook was lying, we’d try to share with each other
back and forth and that’s what helped build us into an even stronger group of people who went
out on the street. But you’d look for hooks and we’d learn—we’d share them with each other.
Somebody would say something about having trouble with a child or maybe they are having
difficulty with work or maybe they’re having a health problem or an anger problem. Or life a life
is boring problem. And so, those were hooks so we could open it up and show them some—a
little bit of scripture and a personal testimony. And they’d say, ‘Oh, that’s different.” “And
would you like to know this Jesus?” 80% of the time they said yes. It didn’t matter what
language it was in either. So anyway, that was working and worked that along up until about
2005. And while I was doing that, I finished two years with Woodstock and I still have
connectivity with the mission pastor. Still have it. I mean, I’ll see him 10 years later and I
haven’t seen him, he knows who I am because I will go to the International Mission Training
Center for something, maybe we are going to support something because we go there and we
encourage candidates that will become missionaries. And we love on them during part of their
orientation when they are first arriving. So, we get them set up in their five villages at different
parts of the world. And so, we get them settled in there. And so, I bump into these—this
gentleman once in a while. So, that worked well. (00:52:08)
Veteran: Then I went to Indianapolis, Evans Indianapolis—the Trinity Seminary—for two years.
And then I came back with all that background and writing and research and whatever reporting
�and infiltrating that into what we are doing in this mission outreach to the world. And got
involved with a New Life Bible Seminary. Whatever it was. A buddy of mine, he happens to be a
maintenance man at the Salem VA Medical Center, and he was the chancellor and creator of this
seminary. He’s a black guy so I was the only white guy going through the school. And they liked
that because I taught them prayer walking and he knew that and wanted me to do that. So, later
on I continued to do that. But I got a PhD in theology out of that, all that experience, plus writing
a thesis for him. And what I did is I basically summarized what I just told you about being in
these other places and what I picked up from the International Mission Board. And I did some
stuff for the North American Mission Board also. One of the things that Charlotte and I did by
ourselves: we went up to Prince Edward Island and—we planned this, we had been up there
before and I said, “I want to bring my wife sometime but I need some help.” And a fellow by the
name of…I think his last name was Welch. He was born in Entry Island and that island is in the
Saint Lawrence Gulf. It’s part of a chain of 6 islands and they call the 6 islands, the Isle de
Madeleine, Isle of Madeleine. And depends on the size of your map, you won’t even be able to
find the islands but if it gets large enough or whatever it is, you could see them. So anyway, what
we did: we spent 72 hours. We flew to Prince Edward Island, got on a boat for 5 hours. We spent
72 hours on 5 islands that connect with bridges and the Entry Island was here. Entry Island is
British and these were French. Now, it is all Canadian, but it is still English speaking here and
French here. (00:54:33)
Veteran: So, we landed over here; we speak French. Now, my friend, Brother Welch, he speaks
English, but he has—he also can speak some French. When we were boarding the ship, we were
going there with the intent of finding out how do you win those 14,000 people to the Lord? What
is going on on the island and then try—if it’s anything of value we can capture, we’d share it.
�Okay. So, on the 5 hour trip, we—Brother Welch bumped into some guy he knew and the guy
hated Americans and he thinks everybody that’s in Vietnam—or, not Vietnam…Well yeah,
Vietnam and later on places—should—good for them if they get killed. You know, doesn’t
matter where they are in the world, whether it’s Vietnam or Panama or some other place. And he
was just really mean so at—towards the end of the trip, we finally revealed who we were and he
just…he was just kind of quiet. He didn’t get pushy or change his decorum. Anyway, we didn’t
tell him a whole lot. You get on that island and you sneeze and 6 people will sneeze or say
“Gesundheit.” So, we—by the time we got there and we got settled in our little hotel, next
morning we came out and we were trying to figure out where do we go next? And a loud truck
went roaring by on the highway just right next to the hotel and squalled his breaks back down,
came down the drive, slammed on the breaks, jumped out and here is this guy that hates
Americans. He says, “You need to see my boss. I am in ship building.” Welch knew that; I didn’t
know that. (00:56:20)
Veteran: “I am in ship building. I build these sea-going fishing boats.” And he’s really—he goes
to this umpty ump Baptist church over here and I’ll bet you he can give you some leads.” Now,
when did that happen? So, we said, “Okay.” So, we went there. So, we went up the island and he
was way out. There’s this little, little thing that stuck out like that and then the building was real
long and the boat started with the hull here and when it came out the other end, it went out in the
water. And big—I don’t know how big they were. But that was how we got started on the island.
And so, what…Brother Welch knew everybody; he really did. I mean, he grew up on Entry
Island, went to school over here and he was with these people in business. And so, we met all the
leadership in any position. We met captains, sea captains now, this kind of trip. They also came
down the Saint Lawrence River to the Isle de Madeleine. And so, we met some of those in their
�homes and I took pictures of everybody. And then there was a Catholic church there. There was
a Jehovah Witness church there. And then this Baptist guy. And the Baptist guy, he was very
open to us and we interviewed him too. And we got information. We talked to everybody. And
then, we visited some of his relatives. They are in the fishing business. And one of them, when
we arrived in the morning about 7, he was just unloading his rig. He had been out there since
about 2 or 3 o’clock this morning and got a load of lobster. So, he unloaded, we went to his
house. And nice, modest home. It was well-built, could fight the weather because everything
froze—would freeze up—during the winter months and you—the only way you can get in was
by air. (00:58:19)
Veteran: The guy that was beating up on us was the pilot. So, he would fly in and he’d—we
engaged him and found out what he—he’s bringing supplies or haul out people that needed to get
a doctor’s appointment in Prince Edward Island or where. But anyway, so we met with him and
my wife said, “Oh, I saw those lobsters. Oh, it’s so wonderful.” And he said, “Do you like
lobster?” “Oh, yeah.” “Come back at 4:30.” So, he left. We left. And so, Brother Welch called
back to the house. What happens? “Oh, I am back. I brought back some of my fish. So, that’s
what I am going to cook now. I am putting them to boil now. It’ll get time to get—it’ll be ready
when you get here at 4:30.” And that happened to us over and over and over again. Everybody
was glad to see us. We met some people with some long, great stories. And they had good
contacts. The last person we saw was probably the most influential islander, person on the island,
was the editor of the Raraguerra [sounds like], which was their newspaper. And he’s kind of a
risqué kind of fellow. So, we walked in on that and he has one of his girlfriends there and so we
just greeted her like, you know, and she brought us some, I guess, coffee or tea. I don’t know
what it was. But he was really excited to find out what we were doing. We’ve come to
�evangelize the island. He says, “Oh yeah, this is a great place to come. And I have been here
since…” We knew this because we were briefed, and we took pictures of him. We didn’t take
pictures of his girlfriend. And he said, “Now, here is what you do: you want to evangelize the
whole island? What you need to do is Sam Lachlan, and he died, he was a millionaire. Had a
business in Canada but he—this is the place that he relaxed, went fishing, and relaxed with his
family. He left several millions of dollars and is downtown in our Department of Community
Services. And Sue Greenbridge is the director. She is the executive director of that operation. I
will call her and make an appointment for you. What you do is you volunteer. You volunteer for
her and you help people and as you are helping people, share your story, and you go from
helping to introducing. But if you just go and knock on the door and say, ‘You’re going to go to
hell unless you know the Lord’ that’s not going to work here.” (01:00:49)
Veteran: And he’s right. It doesn’t work in Poland, it doesn’t work in Czechoslovakia, it doesn’t
work in South America. That just does not work. But if the—India especially. If you show them
some truth and touch their lives, then they will be interested, and they’ll explore that. We aren’t
trying to start a church; we don’t need your money. None of that stuff. So, alright, so we got
then—he was really a hoot. He was a big help. So anyway, we wrapped that up, came home. I
wrote a 22-page paper with photographs and I sent it to the North American Mission Board,
because they’re in America, not just in outer area. So, that’s how I took care of that.
Interviewer: Okay. Now at this point, we have now taken a look at some of your postmilitary career and discussed your mission work and you kind of closed off the story of
going up to the Isle de Madeleine, Prince Edward Island, I guess, province but separate
islands and that work there. And I guess how do you…I guess, how do you see things
�coming together? What are you doing now or whatever that builds on all of that military
and post-military experience? (01:02:12)
Veteran: Ah, well while I was in the mission field for the church, even when they moved
somebody else to absorb it into his organization so he would be happy, whatever that is, takes
work to keep up with this stuff. But we got into Berlin several times. I speak the language and
that helped. And some really interesting miracles happened in our face during our prayer
walking. Why, it’s amazing. People walked up to us out of the blue and they said, “There’s
something different about you and we want to know what it is.” And they were foreigners, they
weren’t Americans. And that’s kind of interesting to se that happen. And so, that carries over
into what we are doing now in the sense that these people that were now touching in this ministry
we call—it’s not ministry, it’s a secular organization but it turns into a ministry and it’s called
Military Family Support Centers Incorporated. The reason why I am calling it centers, it’s with
the anticipation that it will grow in other states. Now, we have connectivity certainly throughout
the commonwealth of Virginia. But we are serving people in Maryland, West Virginia,
Kentucky, North Carolina, California, Texas, Arkansas, Pennsylvania. And because they get
ahold of our website and that’s how they get the people outside the states. But we also have
people in the surrounding states of Virginia who are members of our—either our reserve units,
our Navy Reserve, Marine Reserve, Coast Guard Reserve, Army Reserve, Navy Reserve, and
that kind of thing. (01:04:14)
Veteran: Or, are Air or Army National Guard in the commonwealth of Virginia. They live in
other states, but they are part of us here in the commonwealth. So, what we did in settling up this
Military Family Support Center, I was over at the church in my office doing whatever I was
doing and I got a call from the secretary, the pastor’s secretary, and this happened about 2004. I
�think it was in maybe summertime. I don’t know; can’t remember. And what it was: somebody
from the local armory caked and they were looking for a pastor to help them because they were
creating a new organization and they wanted to have some kind of a spiritual guide to round out
their team, whatever that is, whatever. And it is something to do with families. That was all I got.
We didn’t have a name. So, without telling anybody anything, the command sergeant major,
Tony Price, was the guy that was making the call. His immediate supervisor, superior officer,
was a lieutenant colonel by the name of Lapsa Flora [sounds like], a Vietnamese. And what was
interesting about his boss is his boss was in—grew up, born and raised, in Vietnam and when the
war came to an end, he had to flee to the jungle with his family. He was a child. And they ate
bugs. They ate anything. They just ate off whatever they could find in the land to eat. And so,
when he got old enough or threatened enough that he was now 18 years old, they would put him
in the transition schools they were putting people in, trying to get them converted to communism
or central government or whatever it is that they were doing. (01:06:18)
Veteran: And so, he left. He got on a boat and he came to America. He is a boat person. So, here
he got—he was adopted by a couple in…Boones Mill, I think, which is in…it’s a small town just
south of Roanoke. The Flora family adopted him and gave him their name. and so, they grew
him up in their local high school, I mean, local public school. And he qualified. His father had
been an officer or…I think so. He was a graduate of Virginia Military Institute in Lexington.
And so, whatever he did, whatever happened, he got him involved in that and he was a superb,
superior student. He just…he was just an outstanding student. His English was impeccable; he
got that way with it. And so, he was commissioned also in the Army. And I think at that point, he
was in the National Guard but nonetheless in the Army and through the years, he served
exceptionally well. And one was chosen to command the local battalion that was in Roanoke
�Armory. So, he was doing that and so he let his command sergeant major recruit this team, but
he was a major supporter. So, his unit is the founding unit and his upline was in desperate need
of help for military families. There is nothing out there for them because all of them mostly are
away from military posts, camps, stations, and forts. And so, if something goes awry…When I
was on active duty for so many years, I’d just go down to the local whatever it was and they
either had it there or they had the technician there or I could—somebody would show me how to
repair my car or where I could get…I could buy food or there was a food pantry or if I needed
something for the house, I could get a desk or a bed or whatever. And all of that—there was
something on post, camp, or station. There is nothing for these people. 67% of military families
live in rural areas. (01:08:45)
Veteran: So anyway, so they were enthused about this unit taking on this, exploring it. So, I
showed up and I didn’t tell them who I was, and they just knew I was from a local church. Hey
you. And so, the command sergeant major briefed him, introduced us to the commanding officer
who waved at us and walked away because he wanted that command sergeant major to get his
work—go to work. There must have been 35 people there: businessmen from all walks of life.
Some of them—I think 2 or 3 of them—had former military experience but everybody else was
just a civilian in some business venture. And the idea was—and some of the testimony we got,
there was a woman who lived not far from where Virginia tech is, 5 children, her husband was
deployed, and she was pulling her hair out. I mean, she was losing it. She was loud, aggressive,
and vocal. And so, to fix that, what the command sergeant major did, he went to the local church
and 4 or 5 of the ladies rotated at being a household helper with the everyday load just being a
good listener, a good conversationalist. And sometimes they went into stuff and then somebody
else would go get whatever they needed. And so, that kind of helped. That would be…that was a
�good example for others because they were sure there were others in then woods someplace, not
made known. So, that was passed to us. (01:10:22)
Veteran: And we talked about whatever our experiences were with neighbors that might have
problems, but they are not military. And then others talked about their military experience. And
then he asked me if I had any military experience and that’s when I got the bird floated out. And
so, I told him my experience as an enlisted man, also as an officer, and not only getting the help
in America but when I was in any foreign country. Same thing. And so, that means when I was in
combat, my wife was in a military facility, a family military facility. And only one time she was
off, she was away physically, out of the facility, but it was still she could go back on post, camp,
or station, and get something. So, she still had an umbrella. But these people Anthony was
talking about, they don’t have anything. So, alright, so I went to the men’s room, came back, and
I found out I was elected president. I am still president. And bottle washer. And I sweep the
parking lots and everything else. So, we started with that notion that we would do something. So,
we had to figure out first a name that would pretty much reveal who we are. And then at the
same time, we had to present it not only to the lieutenant colonel who was all for anything that
was positive like that but get together with various groups that were pro-military. Well, one
group is…The 29th division is a National Guard unit that is spread out. Part of it is in Maryland,
the rest of it is in Virginia. (01:12:16)
Veteran: And so, we had to go to the…we went to the leadership of that organization plus in
Virginia and Maryland, you have an adjutant general who is separate and distinctive, and that’s
structure. So, we had that to contend with. But a social organization they had called, ‘The 29th
Division Association’—the 29th Infantry Division—29th Infantry Division, none of that, just ‘29th
Division Association.’ So, we went to the 29th Division Association and they gave us the Post 64
�in Roanoke, and they are still around, gave us seed money. Our first seed money. We got several
thousand dollars from them to start something that nobody had out there. We looked on the
internet and there were no such nothing. And 98% of the organizations out there had all kinds of
things going on and maybe 2% had some reference to families but nobody was dedicated to
families. So, we thought that was interesting but also sad. We put this thing together with the
idea that, okay, we need money. We had to write job descriptions for who is going to—what are
we going to do and how are we going to do it and who are we going to do it with, and such like
that. And so, one of the first things that happened: we couldn’t stay at the armory because they—
that was under contract to be destroyed, eliminated. And plus, it might be some folks don’t want
to come to the armory to pick up groceries or pick up…maybe have a counseling session or
whatever they were looking for. So, we wanted to get into the community but still we were
limited. So, we went and got into Salem and we originally located our organization in the Post 3
American Legion, which is out in the community, a lot of room around it; it is really pleasant.
(01:14:28)
Veteran: So, if we had somebody come that needed a counseling, they could do it inside, or
sitting under a tree for more casual, and that kind of stuff. And in the basement, we had a food
pantry, a very modest food pantry that had clothing in it, bits and pieces of furniture and maybe a
few appliances. And I mean, it was a very small space. Very small, less than 1000 square foot.
Very small space. And so, we started with that and then we had a lot of activities. And the
activities—we would have the—to give the mothers a day…a break. We would take the
teenagers down to Adventure Land and wear them out. And then there was things to do. They’d
blow a whole day down there and we would feed them and all that. And the babies, we had
people who were qualified that we background checked. Everybody got background checked.
�And so, we’d take care of the babies. And so, the ladies—one time, some local Dodge dealer
gave us 5 vans. And we had drivers that were cleared. And they took them to some—one place
and they had sort of a breakfast thing and Belk’s or somebody had a fashion show for them and
then they went from there to some…I forget where it was. It was a shopping center, but they had
a couple places where we could, partial amounts, where some of them could start off getting a
pedicure while the others were over doing something else and then we would switch. So, we did
that for a while. And then we brought them in for lunch and dressed them up and they went to
one of the other ladies’ shops and got some things they liked, and they modeled those. And we
also gave them, each one, a $100 gift certificate to one of the—another place. (01:16:25)
Veteran: And that was the next place we went to. And so, we had a day like that. They had a lot
of time laughing and just carrying on, enjoying each other’s company, which they never got
together as a unit. And we were sort of just there. We didn’t…we were just there. We were the
driver or the…introduced the next point of contact where we go, where we headed. That—it was
a day of surprises for them. So, at the end of the day they were wiped out. So, we brought them
back to the American Legion building and had made a last cup of tea and got them quieted down
and reacquainted them with their children and then said goodbye. And we got some good
feedback from that, excellent feedback, very positive. But some of them would come back to us
because they started to mention some things to their lady friends in the unit and then they
decided to follow up with us. So, we don’t have counseling, but we have referrals, so we get a
baseline for them and refer them to somebody who we have vetted. We saved three—we saved—
we would have had to have insurance for at least 3 million dollars if we counseled.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Veteran: We just didn’t do that. And our guys didn’t want to take a chance; they didn’t want to
do that. So, okay. So, that worked out fine. So, we had referrals. We helped them with the
children. Sometimes they needed extra assistance and so we would maybe coach the school staff
about this particular child. We would go in there and sort of advocate for the mother. And that
was very helpful. Then the next problem was what do you do…they are getting ready to have
dad come home. We had some ladies, so mom to come home, but mostly guys. (01:18:29)
Veteran: And so, the National Guard had some programs to help us with that. And so, we
brought them in at the right time, get ready for…it really is going to be different, you are
different, and you are going to have to work your differences out. And here is what is available
to you when those differences arise and that was important. That really paid dividends. One of
the things that was extremely important was that when the soldiers, sailors, Marines, whatever,
came back, we needed to acquaint them immediately, and they were told to do this, with the
Veterans Administration. They changed it to Veterans Affairs Medical Center. They had their
last dental check-up and a physical and questions. And that was important to get that done and
they got signed in. Some of them didn’t do that and it created a lot of problems later on. Some of
these guys became suicidal and we didn’t see anybody do anything, but we know that there was a
lot of guys…there was a number of guys that had terminated their lives when they came back.
And so, we eventually got them in the VA and the VA was able to do something or refer them to
some civilian, somebody that they trusted or whatever. So, we continued that. And then, there
was some financial problems going on at the American Legion. They needed space or they
wanted more of whatever. We didn’t have any more of finances to help them. So, some church
adopted us and so we moved into a church for about 7 or 8 years. (01:20:15)
�Veteran: And we occupied some empty…I think they gave us 2 offices and all their warehouse.
And we turned the warehouse into a food pantry, and they would come into us and we had hours
at least four and a half days a week, and phone calls. And they could get ahold of us otherwise.
And so, we provided food, we provided—we got out of the clothing business. If we could hunt
something for them furniture-wise, we would help them with it. If their car broke down, we had
somebody that would repair something for them, or we could get a discount and somebody in the
family could change the tire if they wanted to or whatever they did. So, that helped. And we
helped a little bit with utilities. We didn’t have a lot of money, so we had to be careful. So, we
did those kinds of things. We were there to listen, certainly. And then we had…and we continued
some of these other things where we had education. And we educated them on how to fill out
their tax forms and paying bills on time. One woman came into us and she was bankrupt, and
they were going to take the house or the car, I don’t know what it was. They were going to take
something. And she was married to a lieutenant commander of the United States Navy and he
was in the intelligence unit in Stuttgart, Germany. Boy. We didn’t know what to do with that, so
a local banker said, “Please refer her to us. We have a financial wealth management office and
one of our ladies will coach her and find out what the deal is.” Come to find out, she had a
checkbook and as long as she had checks in the checkbook, she had money in the bank. The
other thing is, she also had a lot of mail and some of it was opened and some of it wasn’t. The
stuff she knew maybe was from a friend or maybe from her husband or something like that, she
is opening that. But these other ones for—there were people that were dunning her, and she
was—they were hitting her with penalties and all kinds of stuff; she didn’t open those. (01:22:37)
Interviewer: Okay…
�Veteran: She had a pile of them. So anyway, the lady that talked to her was a professional. So,
what she did: she took—went through all of her stuff. And the personal stuff from hubby gave to
her and then took everything else and worked out a schedule to pay it all off. She was making—
she was getting $7000 a month and bankrupt. So, we took that as a key so then we started
offering that kind of orientation and referral to everybody because we figured I bet you there are
some others out there the same way. They might not have $7000 a month but they got $325 a
month or $479 a month. And so, maybe this would help. I don’t know. So, we started doing that
too. And then we started having games on any place that we haven’t opened a space, we would
try to have some kind of…you know, the bounce houses and some cooking and so they could
have a little family get together. We found out we needed to do some things with the units. That
battalion that battalion commander was in that we told you about in the armory? His battalion got
ready for deployment. 450 guys. And so, they went up to Wisconsin. We have a base—a training
base—up there and they were up at the training base for quite some time. And when they got
finished with the training, they had a 2-week break and then they would deploy. So, when they
finished with the 2-week break, they needed 8 buses to bring them back to Virginia for the 2
weeks and then they would be driven over to the regional airport and eventually end up in Iraq.
Kuwait and Iraq. (01:24:34)
Veteran: So anyway, they had enough—Guard had enough money for 2 buses. Now, I don’t
know what happened. Somebody bought a bus, we bought 5. We did. Cost $8000 and we didn’t
have it. So, we went around with a tin cup and we got $8000. And so, they—the bus company
went up there in Wisconsin and picked up the rest of the battalion, brought them all back, they
are all together. And they worked out an arrangement between themselves or some—one of the
bus companies, it’s a local one, Abbott was involved with this—and so, they said, “Okay, now
�when you are ready to go to the airport, we will pick you up at the armory, take you to where you
are going to say goodbye.” There was a church that said, “We will help you. And we are going to
have your farewell.” And they provided all the food, and the ladies cooked these really neat
things, you know, these little finger food things. Oh man, those were great. And those went
quick. And then, other things that they made…It was really nice, and they brought their families.
Can you imagine what 400 plus families? That was a large group, about 1200. And they brought
in a senior ranking general and I don’t know what he was doing but it wasn’t a farewell, we love
you kind of…I don’t know what he was talking about. Maybe the new armored piercing round
that they would get. Nobody was interested in it and it was terrible. But other—that was the only
thing that was wrong, didn’t fit, but everything else was liter—the community in that church and
the surrounding showed up and then just loved on these people getting ready to leave. (01:26:17)
Veteran: So, the guys got on the bus and were taken down to the airport and flew out. And I
don’t think we paid for that. They, somehow, they did it amongst themselves, that bus company.
Talked to the adjutant general; at that time was a guy by the name of Williams. And he said,
when we visited him in his office at Fort Pickett. My executive vice president and myself, and I
went to visit him, and he said, “We need what you are doing. That battalion commander can’t do
it without you. And we can’t stand at a street corner…You all are in civilian clothes. You might
have been in the military once but you are in civilian clothes today and you can stand out there
with a cup and get some money or something, or maybe somebody can volunteer something in
kind, whatever it is, and you can help our families. So, please keep it up.” So, we tried to keep
that connection. Although they can’t advertise us, they can certainly refer folks to us. Now, in—
there are some other organizations like the Wounded Warrior Project. That’s a national
organization. John Melia started that some years ago. And he was one of our national service
�officers; helped people to get benefits that they earned when on duty. And he developed that
organization and fielded it. First, taking backpacks to Walter Reed Hospital up in Washington
D.C. area. Wanted me to get involved in that. And we were just starting this, and he was just
starting his and his is going to the guys and ours is going to the family. Everybody was wanting
to send stuff to the guys but not to the families and so I declined. (01:28:17)
Veteran: He eventually moved to Florida and he is making very well. I get all volunteers except
one part time administrator. That’s it. And so, he went his way. But when they need food, they
come to us. The state of Virginia, after we got started and we went to some of their meetings in
Richmond where they are talking about strategies and stuff, about how to work things in the
commonwealth to include the military, the…They put some kind of appeal to the legislature and
they formed a commonwealth of Virginia Wounded Warrior Program. Not project, program.
And what they did, they paid for all the administration to run something that mimics us, pretty
much, not completely though but pretty much. And then so every dollar that was donated to the
Wounded—Virginia’s Wounded Warrior Program—went to the client. That’s excellent.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But it is limited. So anyway, over the years we have worked with them, we work with
the other organizations that are invented for military and/or their families. And we are involved
with all of that but none of them feed. They do a variety of things, but feeding is not—they can’t
sustain it. So anyway, moving into current times, in 19…or no, in 2015, we had to move out of
that church because their youth program was growing so big. And we were enthused with that;
we thought that was great. So, we closed—we closed our food pantry and gave it all away to the
Roanoke County Salem Foodbank. It was worth $16…no. I think it was worth $23,160. Wow.
(01:30:43)
�Veteran: Non-perishables. We didn’t have anything perishable. So, we moved out of that and
moved into the Blue Ridge Public Broadcasting Services Campus, and we are there today. We
moved there in…and we opened up in June of 2015 and been there ever since. 2016 we decided
we would help veterans. We didn’t focus on the veterans, we just—people were actively
involved in the Guard and Reserve, in training and/or mobilization and deployment for…what is
it? Disaster relief? Anything. And so, we were there and then sometimes, even when things
were…they were in just a training mode, something would happen. So, we would try to help out
there too. So, that was good, so we invited the veterans. In January 2016, we had 1 or 2 sessions,
but 12 families showed up. Okay. By December, it was up to 30 families and so we had about
500 families that we fed, maybe, ballpark. And if—and we gave them at least 7 to 10 days’
worth of food. (01:32:08)
Veteran: So, I back it down and calculate it. If we gave that much food to these families of, some
of them only 3 to 5 persons in it, and we kept data on the adults and the children, we figured out
that we fed so many people 22,000 meals. And that does not include the special things that we
did. When the headquarters 29th division went to Kuwait on October the 30th, 2016, they had no
food for the 800 family members that showed up to say goodbye to their loved ones, so we paid
for that. And Wounded Warrior paid $200,000 and we picked up $51,000. Then we paid for that.
That’s where I met the governor. That is coming. Okay, so that’s fine. So, we continued on and
we came into 2017. In January, we had 30 families. August this year, we had 127 families.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: We have blown almost $90,000 and provided for…it is approaching now 700 families
and we have fed over…over 30,000 meals and we figured by the end of the year it will be 44,000
meals and 795 families. So, that’s where we are right now. And we are stretched. We didn’t—we
�were not prepared for exponential functional growth. So, we are operating under a thread as I
speak to you.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, is this in part because the division headquarters deployed and so
you had more? Or was it just people learn about you and… (01:34:13)
Veteran: Word of mouth.
Interviewer: Yeah. And so, it never—it just expands.
Veteran: We have two things that are causing it. First of all, there are more veterans than active
folks. Somebody that is actively involved in the Guard or Reserve or an active unit, active duty,
full-time unit, that was the active community.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Okay, that was, in the commonwealth of Virginia, maybe 8000. Veterans are half a
million plus. And so, we are getting that. And that’s just touching the folks that are here in
Roanoke Valley and the 5 counties around us, primarily. And then it leaks after that to start
touching the other people that come in. But…So, that’s where we are. And so, what we are
trying to—we are really struggling to—we don’t have a grant writer. I mean, I scribbled a couple
things and one of them hit and another one that was just kind of small hit, but I got one big one
that helped us. That’s the only reason we are through. And it’s kind of neat people give us stuff.
And I’ve got over $10,000 of income stuff and I am still picking up stuff from that—by the end
of the year, it should be $15-$20,000 of income. But once you get in it, it’s gone. And still in my
budget, we have—everything is automated now. I got an accountant that handles that. I don’t pay
him much. But what happens when I make an entry, I send him reports monthly about what I
am—I think we did money in and money out. The bank sends him a report and he computerizes
�the whole thing, hits some magic buttons, and it produces a budget. I have overspent $26,000 and
yet I got no bills outstanding. Now, how do you fix that? (01:36:09)
Veteran: It is paper. You can live on that, but the thing is what you need to do is have some
funds come in because this exponential function hasn’t stopped. And so, if I run out of income, I
have $12,000 dollars in hip pocket. That’s all I got left now out of a bunch. I had $55,000 in
2016 and we burned it up in 2017. But the idea is to keep the faith and folks…and we are trying
to—I am bringing a sergeant first class who is my first administrator. She is still on active
reserve unit. So, I am hoping she will be able to get good writing grants. So, that’s where we are.
So, all this stuff in the background is developing an environment for family. And where the
military can’t—where they have no—legally, they can’t…You can’t stand out on a street corner
on 10th and Middle in New York City with a tin cup so you get enough money to buy a new B52. You can’t do that. So, that’s what we are trying to do. We are trying to buy a new B-52,
locally.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for a really pretty remarkable story overall with a lot
of different pieces that interconnect in a lot of very interesting ways. So, I just would like to
close here by thanking you for taking all of this time out of your reunion this year to share
that story with us. (01:37:48)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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TalmadgeR2152V5
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Talmadge, Roger S.
Date
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2017-09
Title
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Talmadge, Roger (Interview transcript and video, part 5), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Talmadge was based in Alexandria, Virginia for his last military assignment. He was responsible for managing military computer systems. He served as the senior chaplain at his base and ran several Bible studies. Roger retired from the military in July 1989. After retirement, he and his family moved to Roanoke, Virginia. He was hired by the Disabled American Veterans Organization. Roger was also responsible for running several thrift stores located throughout Virginia. In 1992, he became the Department Chaplain in Virginia, a position that he held until 2013. Throughout his time in the military, Roger was able to earn various academic degrees. He earned a bachelor’s degree in computer science, a master’s degree in business, a master’s degree of military arts, a master’s degree of military science, and a PhD in theology. After his retirement from the military, Roger became actively involved in volunteer international mission work. Roger eventually helped form a program that aids military families in fulfilling their basic needs. He has been the president of the program since it first began. Roger is committed to helping veterans and their families.
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c5bc38408379f9ec57e0b487f4b8697f.mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4721587222fc1a272dff190177cd1662.pdf
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Tamburini, John
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: John Tamburini
Length of Interview: (1:11:48)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, John, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin
with, where and when were you born?”
I was born in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
Interviewer: “In what year?”
1948. And moved to the town of Millstone in Somerset county. I resided in Millstone until my
time of being drafted into the army.
Interviewer: “Okay, and back up a little bit. What was your family doing for a living when
you were a kid?”
My mother was a homemaker, my father was a construction worker, and that was really it until
the time I went into the service.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you finish high school?”
Pardon?
Interviewer: “Did you graduate from high school?”
Yes, I did.
Interviewer: “In what year did you graduate?”
In 1966.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so what did you do after graduating?”
I went to a technical institute, and it was a two-year program. And during my two-year program,
I would continue to go to the draft hall to find out where my number was, and when my number
was getting closer and I started my second year, I really didn’t concentrate on my studies and
was asked to leave. (1:12) I went out and bought a new car, and shortly after that, I got my draft
notice, was drafted into the army, and gave the car to my brother. My younger brother. And was
in the army in February of 1969.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you get the car back when you came back?”
No, my brother kept it.
Interviewer: “Oh, okay. All right. Where did you go for basic training?”
Fort Dix, New Jersey.
Interviewer: “Okay, and describe what basic training was like at that point.”
Basic training was really—It’s funny because I trained with the—in Fort Dix in the winter of—
February and March, which was kind of sort of different, knowing that I was going to be going to
Vietnam probably. And we did force-marches through quite a few feet of snow and did our
grenade qualifications and our rifle qualifications in the snow. Laying in the snow. (2:03) And
then I left Fort Dix after my basic training, went home for a week, and then went to Fort Sill,
Oklahoma.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you were at Fort Dix, how much emphasis was there on
discipline and following orders?”
Quite a bit. It was quite a different change from civilian life going in there, and I thought that I
was brought up in a pretty good household. And I had some—I would say—strict parents, but we
were organized and not maybe regimented. But we had certain rules to follow, and I just thought
I was a pretty good kid at that point until I got into the service. Then I saw a different side of life,
and it was like, “You’re going to get your ass kicked.” And it kind of sort of straightened you
out. Makes you a little bit more a man.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did you understand at the time what they were doing?”
Not really, no. I just knew that I was serving time and that I had to follow orders, and it was the
military. And I knew I wanted to be a good soldier because I wasn’t about to disappoint my
family and be discharged. And I was continuing to follow orders, and, again, I had the attitude to
make the best of it.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now the other guys that you were training with there—Did they take
the same attitude, or did some of them have trouble?”
I think they pretty much did. We pretty much stuck together as a group, and we knew that we
were all in the same boat together if I could say that. And I guess we were all a little concerned
what was down the road for us, knowing that Vietnam was going—Vietnam was active. And you
didn’t really know what MOS you were going to really get, and basic training was really just
basic.
Interviewer: “All right. Yeah. How much did you know about Vietnam at that time?”
�Tamburini, John
Really nothing. I mean, other than—Maybe I shouldn’t say nothing. On Sunday night, I
remember laying in the living room, and we used to watch the Honor Roll. And we used to watch
who was killed in action, and I never really thought much outside the box other than, “Wow.”
You know. “Somebody—A lot of people are getting killed in Vietnam.” Never thinking that I
would set foot on that soil. (4:07)
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, because you were saying—You used the term MOS, which is
military occupational specialty.”
Yeah, it’s a military—Yeah, occupation to service. Yes.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, so you don’t know where you’re going to go, what you’re going
to do. All right. Okay, and so then—But you’re now sent—Now they send you for advanced
training in Fort Sill?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of training did you get there?”
We not only got basic training, but we also learned about the Howitzers. We trained on the 105s,
the 155s, the tanks, and other hand guns like grenade launchers, rifles, which was a M14, and we
did field maneuvers. And that went on, you know, for another couple months.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re getting—In addition to the artillery training, which would
be standard there, they’re also giving you some infantry training?”
Yes, there also came hand-in-hand with that. Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, because the understanding is you might well wind up in Vietnam,
and…”
You needed both to survive.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, and did they treat you any differently at Fort Sill
than they did back at Fort Dix?”
I think Fort Sill, Oklahoma was a little bit more rigid because I think they were trying to finetune you—if I could say that—for that career or for that MOS, and it was really a much more
serious and concentrated—what can I say—job. That you had a responsibility. And there was a
lot more to learn, especially, you know, learning all the artillery components and, you know, all
about them. And, like I said, with the tanks, the 105s, the 155s, and, you know, the other
handheld devices—grenade launchers, rifles—and even grenade throwing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did they tell you anything at that point about Vietnam?”
�Tamburini, John
Yes, they did. As we got to the end of your advanced training, they basically brought you aside
and said, “Listen. You have a very good chance of going to Vietnam as basically a Private E2.”
Which is, I think, what would be our rank. “Or you can go to the NCO Academy, which you
then—” Is a six-month academy. (6:03)You come out a Sergeant E5, but you were going to go to
Vietnam, no questions asked. And you will serve time in Vietnam, so what I did at that time—I
contacted my family and my—who is my wife today, my fiancée then. And I said to them—I
says, “I think I want to go to Vietnam as a better soldier instead of going as an E2.” I said, “I
think it’s better.” And, if there’s a bonus to it, you made more money, which was hardly
anything. So I then went home on leave for a short period of time, went back to Fort Sill, and I
did a six-month academy, which really fine-tuned me that much more beyond any expectation
that I had. It was quite rigorous, very involved, and it was another eye-opener. And I thought that
I was going to go to Vietnam as a good soldier, and if it wasn’t for that, I don’t think I would’ve
come home alive.
Interviewer: “Okay. What kinds of things were they teaching you then? The NCOSchool?”
Well, it was more artillery but also a lot of advanced life-saving in respect that learning how to
fight and also POW/MIA training, which was quite an eye-opener, and that was something I
never thought I would experience. But it did, and I, again—The whole program made me a better
soldier.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did they have a leadership component to it?”
Oh, yes, it did. Yeah, you had a platoon, and every time you rotated who was in charge of the
platoon. And if you messed up, they let you know about it, and I did mess up one time when I
left a whole battery—if I could say that—at attention for quite a while. And I paid for the—How
could I say it? I paid the price for it because—And then I had to put my head in a bush and talk
to the bush for a while, but, again, that was all part of the—I think, the mental. And not only, you
know, the physical, but the mental. (8:03) You know, to see at what point you’re going to take it.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now I know that with the infantry NCO-School one of the things that
happened was after you did the training part, they sent you to work with a basic training
unit or an AIT unit where you were one of the sergeants doing the training. Now did they
do that for artillery, or was your six months all just training you?”
No, we also had—We also had to be responsible for the other troops that are going into training
in AIT or in the advanced training. Yeah, that was part of it.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you did some of your sergeant stuff with them.”
Yes, I was an acting sergeant when I was in even—I was an acting sergeant even in the
Advanced Infantry Training after Fort Sill. Or even after Fort Dix.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, so you’ve been doing some of them all along, and now you do
some more of it.”
�Tamburini, John
Right. I kind of sort of—I look back at it now, and when we first went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma—I
don’t know how it happened, but I was designated as a—as a sergeant. And I—They give you a
temporary sergeant patch to wear, and it was, at first, uncomfortable. But I said, “You know, it’s
all part of learning about the leadership and the responsibility.”
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, so basically your approach is you’re going to do there, you’re
going to go, you will do the best job you can, and you want to prepare yourself to do that as
best you can.”
That was correct. Yeah, and I wanted to go as a good soldier.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now when you complete the NCO Academy, do you get
orders for Vietnam?”
It was automatic. Yes, because I was part of the condition that when you signed those papers for
the academy, that you were going to Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you get to go home before you left?”
Yes, for one week.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what was that like? You’re going back home, you’re not—You’re
out of the military for a week, and now you know you’re going to Vietnam.”
Pretty tough. (10:04)
Interviewer: “Okay, because you’ve got—Now were you engaged to be married at that
point or just had a girlfriend at that point, or…?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did your family view that? Because had your dad been in the
military in World War II, or…?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so not easy. Okay. All right, so now how do they get you to
Vietnam?”
We flew from Newark Airport to, I believe, an airbase in Washington state.
Interviewer: “Okay. So yeah, Travis, or—Yeah.”
Yeah, and then that’s when you got changed. And then from there we went to, I think, Yokota
Air Force Base in Japan and then from Yokota Air Force Base to Cam Ranh Bay.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “Okay. What’s your first impression of Vietnam?”
The smell. When they opened the door, I thought I’d put my head in somebody’s dirty
underwear. I don’t know how else to describe it. I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Well, there’s a lot of decaying vegetation and any number of other things
making smells, but yeah, that’s a pretty common impression. All right. What did they do
with you at Cam Ranh Bay?”
They put you in a hooch for a couple hours, and then they arranged transportation for you in a—
in a Chinook. And they took you to Camp Evans, which was up north.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did they take you—I mean, Cam Ranh Bay is a long way from
Camp Evans. Did they maybe fly you to Camp Eagle or Phu Bai?”
I remember going in a chopper. In a helicopter.
Interviewer: “Okay, but was it a long helicopter ride?” (12:08)
Not that I remember. No, it didn’t—It didn’t really stick in my mind it was long.
Interviewer: “It’s possible that they flew you in a military transport to Da Nang or to Phu
Bai or someplace, but…”
Maybe Phu Bai, but I do remember landing—
Interviewer: “But you got—But you know you went to Camp Evans in a Chinook.”
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, I did go to Camp Evans.
Interviewer: “All right, and how do they deal with the new arrivals then when you get
there?”
Well, I guess it was reality that this is real. You’re in South Vietnam now, you’re having your
exposure to the environment, and the first night I was there I had to pull guard duty. And that
was a little nerve-wracking, and I could swear that some of the trees grew feet when you’re
working—when you’re on guard duty.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did they—At this point, did you know what unit you were joining,
or…?”
I believe I—Yeah, I was with the 101st at that point, and then obviously I was with the 2nd of
the 319th Artillery. And we stayed at Camp Evans, and then it was that following morning that
they took me to my first firebase, which was Firebase Jack.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “Okay, so now the 101st sometimes did an orientation for the new arrivals.
The Screaming Eagle Replacement Training. The SERTS training. Did you not do that?”
I don’t remember that.
Interviewer: “Well, if the next day you went to your unit, then you didn’t.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but you’re an artillerist, so that might be different than it
would be for the infantry guys.”
It might be. But they sent me right to an artillery base.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, so Firebase Jack. Now describe what that base was like. What
kind of—What country was it in, and what did it look like?” (14:03)
It was in the lower land—the lower lying land—and there was a very well, I guess, fortified—if
that’s the right name—firebase. It was somewhat established by the time I got there, and it was a
very well-arranged firebase. And I went, and that was really my first assignment. To go there.
And then that’s when I met, you know, my commanding officer.
Interviewer: “Okay, and talk a little bit about him.”
He—The commanding officer was an E7, and he basically gave me a gun and responsibility.
And I had a crew. It was already there obviously, and they were in country a while. And they
taught me some things, and we got to learn each other’s ways and everything.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you said commanding officer. You basically meant the—a battery’s
top sergeant?”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, but he assigns you to a gun crew. You join the gun
crew. How do the guys in the gun crew that you join treat you?”
Very well. We got along quite well. Very easily. You know, we got along because, you know, I
just wanted to be a part of their team. And here they’re already in country, and I respected their
knowledge and what they had. And we got to work together.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how many men were in that gun crew when you joined it?”
I believe in my initial Howitzer section I had five. Myself and four others.
Interviewer: “All right. Now when you were back at Fort Sill, what was the official size of a
Howitzer crew supposed to be?”
�Tamburini, John
Typically four or five.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you—So you were full strength?”
Yeah, probably. Yes. Yeah, you had your gunner, your assistant gunner, and then you had a
couple guys that would hump ammo. So you got four and then five. You have typically five.
Interviewer: “Okay. I guess, because sometimes gun crews would be under strength when
they’re in the field.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, but at this point you’re full up.”
We had a—We had a good crew. (16:09)
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then how quickly do you start—Were you firing the
piece right away, or was it quiet at Jack for a while?”
We had fire missions every day and every night. You know, firing on enemy positions. There
was always activity.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so now what month was this that you made it to Vietnam?”
I believe it was February. February, I believe, is when it’s time. Yeah, I’d have—Yeah, it was
February that I went into country. Yes.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, and then how long did you stay at Jack that first time do you
think?”
I believe we stayed at Jack about a month and a half maybe. Two months. And then we went to
Firebase Gladiator. We fired onto that location to secure that hill, and then we moved from
Firebase Jack to Firebase Gladiator.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how was the Gladiator different from Jack?”
Jack was basically a low-lying firebase at the foothills, whereas Gladiator was really just a
mountaintop with a severe grade on each side. And that’s where we joined up with the 155
Howitzers on the—We were on the top section of Gladiator with the 105s, and the 155s are down
lower. But, again, Gladiator was a very tight firebase with very little room to move.
Interviewer: “Okay. I guess, you have pictures of it, and it looks basically like a fairly—like
kind of a long, narrow hilltop with only a limited amount of flat space to put gun positions
on.”
�Tamburini, John
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “All right, and what kind of protection did you have?”
As far as…?
Interviewer: “Either other troops or physical defenses.” (18:01)
No, we had ourselves and just the troops that we had on Firebase Jack, and that was really it.
And then, you know, the 155s.
Interviewer: “Okay, but was there an infantry unit that was guarding it at that point,
or…?”
Not to my knowledge. No. No, it was just us.
Interviewer: “Okay, so did you have to do—Did you have perimeter—Did you have guard
duty as well as manning guns?”
Yes, that’s one thing we did. Yeah, I did guard duty every night, and that’s one thing that I did
do. Is I let the guys sleep as long as they could. And we typically had a fire mission like two
o’clock in the morning or three o’clock in the morning on suspected enemy locations. And then
it went right into the normal workday—if you want to call it that—or the normal routine.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now you come in as a sergeant. Are you taking over a gun
crew right away or quickly?”
Yes. Just took one over right away.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you come in. You’re sort of the new guy. Okay, so you come in,
you’re the new guy, you’re giving orders to these other guys, but they’ve all been there
already.”
That’s right.
Interviewer: “What kind of relationship did—How did you approach that?”
Well, I think it was a very—It was a very smooth transition, and we got along. And I don’t
remember anything whatsoever where we had any conflict, any differences, or anything, and we
just meshed together. And I never really—Regardless of the fact that I went over as a sergeant, I
didn’t put myself above them. I knew I had more responsibility as a sergeant, but I didn’t put
myself above them because we were all in the same situation—if I can say that—or same—We
were there for the same, common mission.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you find that there were things about just ways of doing things
there that were different from what you were trained to do?”
�Tamburini, John
Yes, definitely. It’s a—Yeah, some of the things were—Training was one thing, and you learned
a lot of the basics and the procedures. (20:09) But when you went there, your procedures
changed, and your routine changed as far as like doing a fire mission or what you did because
there was no way that they could ever—I don’t think there was no way they could ever create
that condition to one hundred percent stateside. You know, just for what you’re dealing with, the
way the battery’s set up, the entire battery.
Interviewer: “Okay, and—I don’t know—were there physical conditions or environmental
things that made it harder to maintain the guns, or…?”
Well, because, you know, you had the high humidity and the rain, but also—Yeah, I think that
was really—You know, the humidity, the rain, the heat. You know, that affected you. Again, a
different routine. You’re dealing with a total battery. You now have six guns versus twenty on
one. It’s different procedures. You know, you can learn everything—We learned a lot stateside,
but when you go into a complete, full war type of zone, it was different.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and while you were on Gladiator, did you have that first
time—I mean, did you have any North Vietnamese trying to probe the perimeter, or did
you get attacked at all?”
No, we didn’t. Not on Gladiator. But we were very, very close to the jungle itself. I mean, we
were right there. I mean, right on the edge. But we were fortunate.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t get mortar attacks or anything like that?”
Nothing. Not that I remember.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now while you’re out there, do you have any real sense of
what’s going on anyplace else?” (22:02)
Not really because at that point we—Because of the guns and the firepower we had, I created a
sense of security—if I could say that—and we were like invincible. You know, here we have all
the big guns, we’re invincible, we have the rifles, we have everything, and we can kick
anybody’s ass. And you just created a—You had a—You created a sense of security within
yourself, and you feel comfortable with the guys that you’re with. And we had good leadership.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now who’s your battery commander at this point?”
Captain Rich.
Interviewer: “Okay, and tell me a little bit about him.”
Captain Rich was a—He came from the 1st Cavalry Division and quite a wiry guy. Very active
but very supportive and very involved with the troops. And he was out there with you in the thin
�Tamburini, John
and the thick of it, and I had a lot of respect for him. And he just added to the whole group, you
know, and he just kept everybody going.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when a fire mission gets called—gets ordered—what’s sort of
your procedure? What do you do if you say, ‘Okay, we have a fire mission.’ Now what
happens?”
Well, I was primarily a gunner, and a gunner will set the azimuth of the gun. And then you have
an assistant gunner who will set the elevation of the gun, and then you have a guy that’s going to
be loading the breech. And he’s going to be responsible for cutting the bags of ammo because
you have different charges. You have a charge of one through nine, and you also have different
type of—different types of heads that you put on the artillery shells whether it’s a time delay fuse
or whatever. (24:04) And that’s what—You get those commands, and then it was my
responsibility to be the—to be the gunner. That all these commands were followed. And those
commands came down from FDC.
Interviewer: “Which is Fire Direction Control.”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so they’re giving you specific coordinates and settings
and…?”
They’re giving you—They’re giving you azimuth, which is the direction of the gun. They’re
giving you elevation, which is the height of the gun. They’re giving you charge, which is the
distance that your artillery shell will go.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and then how rapidly could you fire that gun?”
It all depended upon your forward observer—how he wanted it fired—because you would do
like a—Let’s say a location round, and then he would—He would adjust that. Whether he would
walk it in or walk it out or make it go to the left or make it go to the right for the—You know, for
the enemy positions.
Interviewer: “Okay, but would there be points when the idea was to simply fire as many
shells as possible at a particular target?”
I think that’s when you had a good enemy target, and you were on the enemy. Then it would be
like all hell breaks loose. Then you just fire as fast as you can.
Interviewer: “And then how many rounds per minute do you think you could get off?”
Hard to say because you’ve got to hump them, you’ve got to cut the bags of ammo, you’ve got to
load them. Probably quite a few. I mean, per minute? That’s hard. I can’t remember, but, I mean,
we would—We would do it.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you now—You’re on Gladiator for a while, but at this
point the firebase at Ripcord is getting established. And there’s operations going on around
it, and then is that your next stop?”
Yes, it was.
Interviewer: “Okay. How do they get you from Gladiator to Ripcord?” (26:01)
With a helicopter. With a crane. It what’s called a crane—like a helicopter where the Howitzer
was hung in the middle—and that’s how we got transported. That’s how we got transported from
Jack to Gladiator.
Interviewer: “Okay, so they have sort of the Skycrane helicopters that’ll carry the artillery
pieces, and then you ride in other helicopters?”
Yes. Yeah, we ride the Hueys.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you got to Ripcord, were there positions already
established for your guns that they got dropped in, or did you have to build them?”
We had to build them. We had to build all the—We had to build the entire base for the—for the
artillery pieces.
Interviewer: “All right, so what did that involve?”
Quite a bit as far as like establishing an ammo bunker again, establishing a perimeter. The ammo
was the most important thing. The ammo got protected first before you protected yourself, and—
Which was kind of sort of, “Okay, why are we doing that?” But that was part of the procedure,
and once you’d got your ammo protected, then you could build on protecting yourself or your
people who are with you. And that’s really how Firebase Ripcord grew because we kept
growing—You know, because of the amount of ammunition, we had to make our ammo bunkers
much larger.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now this was a pretty—Basically, you’re on top of a small mountain
there. It’s a big piece of rock. Did you have engineers helping you blast out holes, or were
you doing all this yourself?”
No, just—We really—When we landed the gun there, it was really less like a—like a rocky,
sandy soil type of thing, and that’s where, you know, once—When they put your gun in, that was
it. You didn’t do anything.
Interviewer: “Okay. You just build around it?”
No, your gun just sat there. The only thing you built around it was your ammo bunkers.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “Okay, but was there no kind of protection for the gun crew, or were you
totally exposed?”
The gun was totally exposed. (28:01) Yeah, we had no protection to the gun. Just the ammo. The
ammo was more important.
Interviewer: “All right, and then did you have—create sleeping holes or bunkers or
anything like that?”
The sleeping holes were on the side of the hill, and you crawled into a culvert, which was a
makeshift shelter, and that’s how you slept. Or you slept on top of the ammo, which is more
protected. Which I’ve done.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re inside the ammo bunker. There’s something above you.”
There were sandbags. Yeah, so you had some type of—You know, some type of protection.
Interviewer: “Okay. When did you arrive on Ripcord do you think?”
I believe it was May. Later on in May.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and at that point now there are infantry units kind of
patrolling around the area and looking for enemy and occasionally finding them, but the
fighting hadn’t gotten really intense yet. But did you still have a lot of fire missions?”
Yes, we did. We did, and we had a—Again, being a sergeant, and every night we had our
meeting about what was going on as far as like enemy activity or basically what we’re looking
for within the next couple days. But we did have a lot of fire missions. We fired—We fired every
day. Hundreds of rounds every day on potential sites.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now before the beginning of July, which is when the sort of siege
starts or whatever, was it pretty quiet in the sense that you weren’t getting shot at, or were
there mortar rounds or rockets that would ever come in?”
No, again, it was really—I kind of sort of become complacent—if that’s the right word—because
here we went from Firebase Jack to Gladiator to Ripcord, and I thought that we—Excuse my
French, but I thought we could kick anybody’s ass. (30:03) And, you know, we were—We were
powerful, you know, and we could do anything. And every night—Because I was a sergeant, I
had to go to a briefing every night, and they would tell you what the—You know, what kind of
activity was going on and what to look for. And nothing really was really, you know, jumping
out at you until the end of June.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then right about at July 1st, you—The base starts to take mortar
rounds.”
�Tamburini, John
Yeah, we had a meeting the last day in June, and they said that there’s a lot of enemy activity in
the area and that we should be expecting some type of activity within the next day or so. And I
went back, and I told my guys what’s going on. And I said, “You know, there’s going to be some
activity.” And the first round came in about, I guess, 6:30, seven o’clock on July 1st, and then I
realized that this is war. This is real.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did the—How close—So the—Were they using mostly mortars at
this point? Was it mortar rounds coming in, or were there rockets, or…?”
It was hard to say whether they were mortars or shells—you know, like an artillery shell—
because there was just so much of it. You really couldn’t investigate the hole, I guess you could
say, because, I mean, it was—I mean, it was blowing—It was blowing stuff everywhere.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now you said that your gun was basically in an exposed position. Did
the position take any hits, or did they always miss you?”
No, it didn’t—Up until about July 6th or July 7th, it missed me, and then that’s when an
incoming round came in. And it blew me back, and it happened so fast that when I—When I
woke up, Captain Rich was standing over me, and he says, “Are you okay?” And I says, “I don’t
know what happened.” Because I blanked out. (32:14) And he says, “You’ve got to get up.
You’ve got to get back to your gun. You’ve got to get back on the gun.” And he says—And I
was still dazed because I got—I got hit with an incoming round. And I went back, and I went
back to the gun and continued fighting, not realizing that I was hit. And then that’s why—Well, I
got awarded the Purple Heart, but I didn’t realize it at that time.
Interviewer: “So it was shrapnel or rocks or something?”
Yeah, it was shrapnel or—Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, but not enough to actually slow you down, or…?”
Not enough to—No, it was—It was—I had the ability to go back and keep going.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you have—Did a medic check you out later, or figure out
if you were hit anywhere, or…?”
Yeah, they did. I was hit, you know, mostly in my—in my arms and my hands and stuff, and
there was like, you know, this—the bleeding obviously and—But I went back and continued,
you know, with your—with the gun.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now on the night of July 1st or in the very early morning on the 2nd,
one of the line companies—Charlie Company—got hit on Hill 902, which was nearby. Now
do you remember anything about that night, or was that not something your battery—You
might have been too close even to support 902.”
�Tamburini, John
Yeah, I don’t remember that because, again, it seems like you’re—You almost had like tunnel
vision because you were focused on your gun and your battery and what—You were trying to
protect the perimeter and do your own fire missions. That’s—I mean, I didn’t really—I didn’t
realize, you know, the other activity on the other hills except for Ripcord.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. You just—You just point the gun where they tell you to
point it and fire and just do that, and now were there occasions when you could actually
sort of look out or see tracer fire or artillery shells landing in other places or air strikes? I
mean, would you ever be a spectator to the battle, or were you always just at the gun?”
I was always at the gun because we—You had to stay at the gun because the amount of firing
that you did, and you really had to make sure that you had enough artillery shells. You were
humping artillery all day, and you were firing all day. (34:14) And you were even firing at night.
Again, we started fire missions like two o’clock in the morning, and we would fire for a couple
hours. And then come daybreak I would get the guys up, you know, because there’s only two of
us at night that fired. And the other guys would be sleeping.
Interviewer: “Were there occasions when you would have everybody up at night if there
was a—You had to support a unit in the field, or…?”
I don’t really remember having everybody up at night. Just myself and another fellow.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now we—I guess, what was—Before the sort of—the siege—
Before July, what was sort of daily life like on the hilltop?”
You—You were either preparing artillery shells, you know, for your next fire mission, or you
were filling sandbags. And just really your normal activity, and that’s what your—That’s what
your day consisted of. You know, pumping artillery shells, getting them out of the boxes, taking
care of the Howitzer, and, again, just doing your fire missions. There wasn’t a day that you
didn’t have several fire missions.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. What did you do for food?”
C-rations and whatever package you can get from home, and then, if you were lucky, you got a
hot meal.
Interviewer: “Would they deliver a hot meal to the firebase occasionally, or…?”
Yes. Yes, they did. Yeah. Firebase Jack was more of a—You got more hot meals—I guess you
could say—out of a canteen or out of a cooler than you did at Gladiator or Ripcord because of its
proximity to the camp.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, and so now once the siege gets going, then it was—
You couldn’t really move around. You wouldn’t leave the gun position very much at all?”
�Tamburini, John
We—Well, we obviously—I think if I follow you correctly, our guns stayed in the same location,
but our fire missions were on any type of enemy location that was called in. (36:08) And it got to
the point where we were actually using the Howitzer as a rifle, and we were sighting down the
gun tube on—We could actually see to—I guess it would be the south of us—where the enemy
was actually running around, and they’re running around the hills. And we would direct fire on
them, and they were just like ants. They would come out of one hole, go back in another hole,
and that just went on every day.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now your battery doesn’t—has a major crisis during the course of
that siege. Can you talk about that? What happens to you?”
As far as the—When it came time to the end?
Interviewer: “Well, there’s the helicopter crash.”
That’s—That was a Chinook that was bringing in the ammo in the sling, and he would always
drop it off in front of my gun. And I would always go down, and he would unhook it. And I
would talk to the guy laying in the belly of the Chinook, and, well, he would always, you know,
say something to me. Or I’d, you know—You know, just talk to each other for a second or two,
and then he would take off. Well, that one particular day—I think it was later on in July—the
Chinook came in. I was down there. He unloaded the ammo, let the sling go, and the Chinook
was starting to take off and got about forty feet above the ammo bunker. And it took on fire on a
tail piece, and I could see the flames coming out of the tail piece of the Chinook. And I could see
it starting to struggle, and the blades—You could just see it struggling, and it wasn’t getting
altitude. And then, all of a sudden, the ship came down, and the guy that was in the belly of the
Chinook fell out. (38:08) And the ship landed on him and pinned his leg to the top of the ammo
bunker, and I went down there. And I talked to him, and he wanted me to cut his leg off because
he couldn’t get out. And I says, “I can’t cut your leg off. I’m not a medic.” And when I says, “I’ll
go get a medic—” And when I went to go get the medic, which is around the side of the base,
and I came back, the whole ship was engulfed in flames. And that was it. I couldn’t do anything,
but that’s—That’s what happened.
Interviewer: “Okay, and now you’ve got a burning helicopter on top of an ammo bunker
and a load of ammo right there, so now what happens?”
It was the beginning of the end. The beginning of the end is that we knew that at this point that
we had to abandon whatever we could. Well, do whatever we could do, and it got to the point
where Captain Rich then said, “We have to—” He called my gun out, and he said, “You’ve got
to put an incinerator grenade down your gun tube.” So I popped the incinerator grenade, and I
put it down the gun tube. And it melted the breechblock they got inside, and they couldn’t use it
against us. And then that was really a lot of the beginning. That was the beginning of the end.
Interviewer: “Okay, but was the ammunition now blowing off? I mean, was it—Were
you—”
Well, we had to fire—Yeah, the Chinook was on top of the ammo bunker.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “Yeah, because that blows up.”
Yes, it does.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then basically that now—Did that damage your gun already, or
was the gun not affected by the blast, or…?”
Oh, yeah, well, the gun wasn’t damaged by the blast. The gun was damaged by Captain Rich
telling me to put the incinerator grenade down the tube. (40:02)
Interviewer: “Okay, so the expectation was that—I guess, at this point why were you
doing—I guess I’m not sure I understand why you would be destroying the gun if the gun
itself hadn’t been damaged yet, and you still hold the hilltop.”
Well, because we’re being—I think at that point I think we knew that—If I—We had really—I
think it was just a lot of chaos, and I think there was—At that point the organization maybe fell
apart if I could say that, and we just knew that there wasn’t much more we could do because the
ammo bunker started to go up.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and if the ammo bunkers blow up, then wouldn’t that damage the
guns, or…?”
It would. It would. It was right in front of the gun.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so this is before the ammo bunker blows up. You actually
already damage—destroy the gun?”
If I remember that, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and you think that was happening at the other gun positions
at the same time, or…?”
Well, Captain Rich was with my gun, and he stayed right with my gun until the end.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when the ammo starts to cook off, do you get out of there and find
a place to take cover, or…?”
Yeah, we—We had to basically just defend ourselves the best we could, and then I think that was
probably around the nineteenth of July.
Interviewer: “Yeah, I think the eighteenth is the day that the crash—The helicopter crash.
But yeah, and the base gets abandoned on like the twenty-third. So—And because you’re
artillery, battery, what gets hit—affected that way—That had a lot to do with it. But okay,
so now that—Now that that’s happened and your battery’s not there, what happens to
you?”
�Tamburini, John
I leave because, you know—Because, again, we’re starting to—We’ve lost all—I don't’ want to
say sense of—How can I put it? Like chain of command. It was quite chaotic, and basically it
was like a—You’ve got to run for your own life, and people, you know—People were just going
wherever they could to find shelter, and then that’s when I—That’s when I knew that we were
being overrun, and I knew that I had to get—I’ve got to get away from the gun, and I had to get
to another safer location. (42:19) And then that’s when—I had lost everything that I had, and I
low crawled from where my gun position was to the other side of the base towards the A Shau
Valley side. And I went over the side of a hill, and I found an opening. And when I looked in the
opening, I saw a set of eyes in the back of the opening, and I figured this is it. This is—This is
going to be my grave, and I said—At that point I had nothing left in me anyhow because we
were taking on tear gas, and I was throwing up. I couldn’t throw up anymore. And then I went,
and I found this hole. And in the back of this hole there was these two eyes, and I went, “Hello.
G.I.?” And he goes, “G.I.” And I went in there, and I stayed in there for a while. I believe it was
until the next morning. I don’t know who he was. I don’t know his name. I know he was a G.I.,
and it was just—We were just being overrun at this point. Just—It was complete chaos.
Interviewer: “Okay, but there’s not enemies storming up the hill. You’re just running—
There’s just confusion on top of the hill.”
There was confusion, but there was also still incoming coming in. Yeah, and, you know,
basically there was no—There was no organization at that point.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re there overnight, and then in the morning, do you go look out
to see what’s happening? Or does someone come find you?”
Well, I realized that—Come morning I realized that everybody’s being taken off the base on the
other side of the—of Ripcord, and I knew I had to get over there to get—to get taken off of there.
(44:05) And so what I did was when I thought that it was clear enough for me to get over there, I
low crawled to the other side of the firebase and then got on a chopper, and I was taken back to
Camp Evans.
Interviewer: “All right, and then did you find—Was the rest of the battery kind of already
there, or…?”
We kind of sort of put everybody together. I know I met Captain Rich. I guess we met somebody
other—I don’t remember how many of the other guys were there at that point, but we kind of
sort of put our group back together if I could say that, got a new set of orders or a new sense of
direction, stayed—I think we stayed at Camp Evans one day, and then the next day we went
down to Firebase Bastogne.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were there guns there for you to use, or did you—they have to fly
in new guns, or…?”
They flew new guns in for us. Yeah.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “Okay. Now Captain Rich at some point gets hit. Was that the end of Ripcord,
or was that…?”
Captain Rich got hit on Ripcord. He didn’t get hit on Bastogne.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so he went back, or he was back on Ripcord. Because I think he
was wounded pretty badly.”
He was wounded supposedly—He was wounded several times. Some of the stories that I’ve read
about him he was wounded five times, but I do know that on Firebase Ripcord—I know that he
was hit a couple times. Maybe three times.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you remember him being back at Evans when you came back?”
Yes. Yeah, we were—We were all there.
Interviewer: “All right. Now—And then did he join you at Bastogne, or was he hit on
Ripcord and then gone, or…?”
Pardon?
Interviewer: “Was—Did he go—Did he join you at Bastogne, or was he wounded badly
enough that he didn’t come back?”
No, he was—He was—He stayed active. Captain Rich stayed active as well. Yeah, we—Yeah,
he stayed active as well with me or with the group. With the platoon. And, like I said, we met
back at Camp Evans.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, but then you didn’t really get any time to—You didn’t really
get any time off there.” (46:02)
No, no. I got time off for maybe a half a day, maybe a day, and then we were back out to
Bastogne.
Interviewer: “All right. Now what was Bastogne like?”
Not so much on a hilltop. If I remember correctly, we weren’t there very long. It was kind of sort
of like a—I want to say like a mild terrain, but it wasn’t like Ripcord or Gladiator. It was a more
low-lying type of area—not a severe hilltop—but it was elevated.
Interviewer: “Okay, and was it a well-established base?”
The part we had, no. No, we had established that base.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and did you get regular fire missions from there?”
�Tamburini, John
Yes, we did. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, and then about how long do you think you stayed there?”
I think we stayed there about a month. Month and a half.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you recall if that base ever got either attacked or probed while
you were there?”
No, we didn’t. No.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now by the time you—Now while you’re at Bastogne, was
the monsoon starting yet, or would that come later?”
I think it might have started then.
Interviewer: “Because you’ve got—You’ve got pictures of a Howitzer in the mud.”
I—Yeah, that might be at Bastogne, or that’s early parts of Jack. Going back to Firebase Jack.
Where we went back to Firebase Jack again.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then is Jack where you spent the last part of your tour?”
Yes, that’s where it was.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now once you get back to Jack, is it any quieter than it had been
before, or do you still have the same number of fire missions?”
Yeah, we did. We did have—But—We did have the fire missions but not as intense as Gladiator
and Ripcord. Not as many, but we did have them.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you think more of them might have been harassment and
interdiction, or were there more routine kinds of fires as opposed to defending a unit or
something?”
I’m sorry. What—
Interviewer: “Well, do you think—Well, there are different kinds of fire missions, and
some of them are simply checking ranges or firing harassment and interdiction.” (48:02)
I think all were enemy locations because all the fire missions we did were enemy locations that
were called in. Yeah, I don’t think we ever did any like—Maybe if you want to call them
harassment maybe—I never really thought of it that way or heard of it, but we always did fire
missions that were called in from the—
�Tamburini, John
Interviewers: “Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s probably the kind of thing that the fire direction
control people know about. You know, is this kind, this kind. But they’re just telling you,
‘Go fire x number of rounds at this place.’”
Yeah, because all our directions came from the fire direction center.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now did you get any time off? Did you get any R&R or
anything like that?”
When I initially went there, I wanted to go to—I forget the name of the place. Anyhow, I had
two choices—Hawaii or someplace else—and I didn’t choose Hawaii. And I didn’t choose—
And I choose the other—I chose the other place, and as I got more involved, I felt more of a
responsibility to the men. And I passed up on the R&R completely, and I said to myself, “I think
if I ever get a taste of civilian life after being here—” I don’t think I would’ve went back. I
would’ve went back probably, but it would’ve been very difficult.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t—But you did get at least one bit of recreation in because
you went to a Bob Hope show, right?”
Yeah. One day.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so was that around Christmastime, or…?”
Yeah, it was The Bob Hope Show. I mean, I guess it had to be. Yeah. I didn’t—Everything was
a—Your time element is a blur. You know, there is no—That’s one thing I thought of. There’s
no Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday—There’s no—You don’t stop on Sunday because
it’s a day of worship. You—There’s—That’s one thing that I’ve got to say. There was no—
There was no days. You didn’t know whether it was Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Thursday,
Tuesday—All you knew is the sun came up, and the sun went down.
Interviewer: “All right, so where was The Bob Hope Show?”
Camp Eagle.
Interviewer: “Okay, so Phu Bai. All right, and what do you remember about that?”
I could hardly see anybody because I was so far back. (50:02) I saw—I knew he was up there,
and I forget who he was with. You know, he was with another singer.
Interviewer: “Could you hear anything at least, or…?”
Could I see?
Interviewer: “Or could you hear anything?”
�Tamburini, John
No, no, because your ears are—Your ears are ringing because of all of the artillery fighting that
you’re doing. Like even right now my ears are ringing. I mean, and that’s why I, you know—I
have a bad hearing loss.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, but it was a day doing something different from normal.”
Yes. Yes, it was. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, and now when you got toward the end of your tour, were you
keeping a short-timer’s calendar, or…?”
Yes, I was, and I did have it marked off. My fiancée or who’s my wife today has sent me one,
and I was marking it off. And I guess I got down to maybe the last two weeks or three weeks.
You know, I’d mark down the days, and then, all of a sudden, I had a nice notice that I can go
home early. So I left Firebase Jack and went back, had my re-up speech, which I didn’t take.
They were going to give me another stripe, which I didn’t take. I would’ve been an E6 probably
making $370 a month instead of 315, but no, I wanted to go home.
Interviewer: “All right, so what’s the process for getting you home?”
From Firebase Jack to Camp Evans, Camp Evans to Cam Ranh Bay, Cam Ranh Bay on a jet to
Fort Lewis, Fort Lewis with a change of clothes and your uniform and…
Interviewer: “Okay. What was it like flying out of Vietnam? They put you on a plane.
You’ve got pictures, so what was going on?” (52:08)
First of all, I think, disbelief that it was over.
Interviewer: “Because you said when you got on the plane, the lights were out.”
There were no lights on. It was complete darkness. You couldn’t see your hand in front of your
face. They paraded you—more or less—down this walkway onto this plane. You sat in a plane
that was completely dark. No lights, no nothing. Nothing. And the next thing you know the plane
is taking off, and it’s taxiing down the runway. Again, no lights, no nothing. No blinker lights on
the plane. And we get to—I guess it was some kind of elevation, and then, all of a sudden, the
lights come on. And it’s party time, and you’re going home.
Interviewer: “All right, and was there a party in effect, or were people quiet? Or how did
people behave?”
No, I think—I think everybody was really happy. Well, they were, but you think about—You
think about who you left behind.
Interviewer: “So you’re there, you’re just on the plane, and you’re just sort of thinking
about whatever.”
�Tamburini, John
You’re—I think it’s almost like you’re in shock. It’s over. It’s behind you. (54:00) It’s over. It’s
behind you. You have second thoughts of what you left behind.
Interviewer: “Was it hard to leave the men from your crew?”
What’s that?
Interviewer: “Was it hard to leave your men behind you?”
Yeah, it was because you—You were—You were really a family. You had a common—You had
a common bond, you know, even though, you know, there are differences and everything. You
had a common bond, and you developed a friendship. But you had a good working relationship.
Again, like I was, you know, being a sergeant and stuff. Yeah, but I felt like I was one of the
guys. I didn’t, you know, push around my rank.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now the way Vietnam worked, people would go, and they would stay
for a year. And so over the course of your year, you would’ve gone from being the new guy
to the old guy, and the men in your crew would’ve been all ones who came in after you
did.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did your crew take any casualties, or did you lose anybody for—
Other than just rotating out?”
Well, we lost the one sergeant—an E7—on Ripcord. Yeah, he was—He was a lifer. That one
sticks in my mind the most. There might have been other casualties that, again—
Interviewer: “But not from your crew.”
No, no.
Interviewer: “All right. Yeah. Okay, so yeah. So basically that’s a situation where, you
know, by the time—I mean, you knew everybody, and they all knew you. And you were
that kind of group.”
You—Yeah, you constantly—The thing that, you know—that I remember is that when I went
over there, I had a group or—You know, group—Crew of guys. And then in that group
obviously some of them were there already seven months, eight months. Some of them—They
were there two months, and they would rotate out. (56:09) And then it also seemed like, you
know, when we did one move to another move, you know, they would change. They would
maybe go to a different battery section, or they would go to a different Howitzer section. But
Captain Rich always tried to keep every Howitzer section manned properly, and, you know, I can
only say that I can only remember really having, I think, one or two guys with me the longest
period of time, which was maybe six months because there was always a rotation. It’s not that
you went in with a group and stay with that group for that whole tour.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “And when new guys came in, how did you treat them?”
The new guys?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
Oh, well, I think I tried to keep everybody as an equal, but I also tried to stress to them that, you
know, it’s war. And, you know, not to go backwards here, but to go back to Firebase Ripcord—
Because it had so many casualties, somehow they shipped in three guys from the back from
Camp Evans that had no experience, and they were in the gun—The gun crew behind me. The
gun pit behind me. And we had an incoming round come in, and that incoming round went off.
And I said to the guys—I says, “Don’t go looking for souvenirs.” And I said, “There’s another
shell behind it.” And they didn’t listen to me, and wouldn’t you know that there’s another
artillery shell coming in behind it and killed all three of them. It virtually took their faces off. It
killed all three of them like in a split-second, and I can—I can still picture that to this day. And I
said, “Don’t go looking—Don’t go looking for souvenirs.” (58:00) But, I mean, that was the
faces of what we were up against.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so now you fly back to the States. Now is your enlistment
basically up at this point? Do they let you out of the army when you get back to the States,
or…?”
Yes, yes. They gave me my papers at Fort Lewis, Washington.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you went home, did you encounter any protestors anyplace,
or did you hear about them?”
Yeah. Yeah, my own cousin. You know, and I guess he had different thoughts, and it got to the
point where I kind of sort of had a fight with him if I could say that.
Interviewer: “But on the trip back like when you’re at the airports or things like that, you
didn’t see anybody?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “Did you fly home in uniform, or did you change clothes?”
Yeah, I flew home in uniform. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, because sometimes people had problems, and sometimes they didn’t.
So—But you were fine. Okay, and now once you get back home, what do you do?”
Kind of sort of go into a cocoon. I didn’t sleep in bed for probably—maybe about five weeks, six
weeks. I slept on the floor. Didn’t go back to work. Basically, just hung out. I couldn’t sleep in a
�Tamburini, John
bed because I didn’t feel comfortable. I needed something hard to sleep on. And then I kind of
sort of went back to work part-time and got back into routine a little bit more.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of work were you doing?”
Back then I was doing engineering and surveying, but yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. Is that what you had trained for when you were in college, or is it just
something you—Did you learn it somewhere?”
No, I went—After high school, I went into what they called a building construction technology
course, which we talked about, but when I was there, I was working part-time at an engineering
firm. (1:00:14) And then when I got back, I went back to work for that engineering firm.
Interviewer: “All right, and did you stay with them or move around, or…?”
I stayed with them, and then I felt that I wanted to do something different. I wanted to be outside
more for some reason, and then I went to another engineering firm who put me outside because I
wanted to be outside. I didn’t want to be in an office, and then I went there and thought that I had
enough of that. I quit that. I basically stopped working for a while, and then I went to pump gas
at a Hess gas station. And then some guy came in and offered me a job to do carpentry work. I
took that, and I kept that my career.
Interviewer: “How long a timespan was it before you wound up doing the carpentry work?
I mean, how many years do you think were involved in there?”
Probably about three to four years.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now along the way did you get married?”
Yes, I did. I got married six months after I was—after I came back.
Interviewer: “Okay, and was your—Did your wife think that you were in some ways a
different person from the guy who left, or did she ever notice changes, or…?”
I think so. I—That’s something you’d probably have to ask her. Yeah, I—I knew she saw a
different person. You know, I came back with a different outlook on life, and I know it was a
different outlook on life. (1:02:00) And I was obviously—You know, I respected her a lot that—
Because we got engaged before I went to Vietnam, which I thought was pretty stupid, because
she was the kind of woman that—I think she would’ve stayed devoted to me if I was killed, and I
don’t think that would’ve been fair to her. But it didn’t work out that way. But, you know, I think
she saw a different person in me from when I left.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now aside from just the business about not wanting to sleep in a bed
for a while, did you have other kind of readjustments you had to make once you got back?”
�Tamburini, John
Yeah, I—In the service, you’re very regimented, and like one night I went for—I wanted to go
get some cold cuts one night, and I remember this. And I went to a deli, and it was—The deli
closed at nine—at ten o’clock or something. And I was there like 9:30, quarter to ten, and I
wanted to order some cold cuts. And they wouldn’t—They wouldn’t cut the cold cuts for me
because—They said, “It’s too close to closing. I don’t want to clean the machine again.” And I
kind of sort of went off on him and probably said some words I shouldn’t have said because—
“You’re open until ten o’clock. Why can’t I get my cold cuts until ten o’clock?” I’ve had bursts
like that, so—Because, again, I just felt that I was regimented. I mean, if you’re open until ten,
you’re open until ten.
Interviewer: “So the world should work like the army?”
Yeah. So, I mean, I had adjustments to make, and I had to adjust myself back to what was the
norm here.
Interviewer: “Did you have to change your language?”
Yes. Yeah, I did. I had to watch what I said and who I said it to.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did you ever get diagnosed with PTSD or anything like that,
or have you sought counseling? Or have you…?”
Yes. PTSD, yes. Right now I receive counseling every two to three weeks with a—my doctor,
Dr. Morgan, who has been a tremendous help. (1:04:11) And no, he’s helped me out quite a bit.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now I want to back up to some other things about being in the service
and being in Vietnam. Now you spent most of your time that year in Vietnam in the field.
You’re on firebases. You’re not spending a lot of time even at a place like Phu Bai or Camp
Evans. Okay. Now in those situations out in the field what were race relations like? You
had black soldiers, white soldiers…”
I did have an incident one night on guard duty with another soldier who was black, and
somehow, somewhere he got a hold of some marijuana. And I got a little upset because I could
smell it, and I said to him—I says, “I know you’re—You’re a little high.” I says, “But you’re not
going to be any good to me.” I says, “If the enemy comes through the perimeter—” I says,
“You’re not going to be any good to me.” I says, “So I’m going to probably—You know, you’re
going to probably be first, and they’re going to be second.” So—And then ever since then, we
really—It was a tough relationship, but I had to do it because, again, I was in charge.
Interviewer: “But in a way that particular issue could’ve been with anybody.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “But otherwise basically did people just get along with each other because
they’re all on the same team?”
�Tamburini, John
Yeah. Oh, yeah, we all—We all formed a bond because we all had a common mission.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Now when you were back on a big base like Evans or at Phu Bai
or someplace like that, did the races sort of segregate themselves, or did you still stay with
the same group?” (1:06:12)
No. No, we were all basically—We all were in it for the same thing. It’s just that the guard duty
to me was extremely important.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and aside from that one particular instant with marijuana, did
you notice much by way of drug use or anything like that?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, and also did you have—encounter many Vietnamese either
civilian or military?”
The Vietnamese—Well, obviously, other than the enemy, but back at the base camps you saw
them. And I treated them with respect. I didn’t—I didn’t do anything—I just didn’t—I just
treated them with respect. At that point, to me, they weren’t the enemy.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and what kind of jobs do they do as far as you can tell?”
It seemed like they did—Well, I was only back there like one time. It seemed like they did like
cleaning if I could say that like with the hooches and stuff. But, again, it’s so—I think it was one
day that I was there.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and you weren’t really in places where there were villages because up
in the hills you don’t have civilians.”
No, no, no. No, you didn’t—You didn’t have much—No, because you were constantly on a base.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you come back, you know, did you—Once you were
back, did you follow the news of the war itself or pay attention to the anti-war movement,
or did you just tune those things out?”
I did follow it, and I understood more about it. And I also—I wanted to know what was going on
because of the guys that I left there, and then as time went on, you know, it was really coming to
an end. It was winding down. (1:08:03)
Interviewer: “And when you came back, did you get involved with veterans organizations,
or did you stay out of those?”
Yes, I did. I went to—I joined a local VFW. I joined a local American Legion. What else? And
that’s really—That’s the only two organizations that I joined, and then later on I joined the
Purple Heart.
�Tamburini, John
Interviewer: “Right. Okay. Now where you were were the VFW and the Legion receptive
to Vietnam veterans, or did they treat you different?”
No, I think there was a lot of respect. A lot. And they—They had a lot of respect for them.
Interviewer: “Okay, and were there a number of Vietnam veterans joining those at that
time, or were you kind of unusual?”
With the VFW there were quite a few Vietnam veterans. The American Legion not so much.
More with the VFW.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, because in some areas the VFW didn’t always treat the
Vietnam guys well just depending on like where you were.”
Yeah, I—I’ve heard that, but we even had our wedding reception at the VFW, you know, when
we got married.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now, I guess, to think back to the time that you spent in the
military and in Vietnam, are there other particular impressions or memories or things that
stand out in your mind that you haven’t brought into the story yet?”
Not right now that I can think of. I mean, you know, so much in my mind, and attention right
now is focused on, you know, what I experienced at Firebase Ripcord. You know, with the
reunion. And I had the opportunity to meet somebody just a little while ago.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then at what point did you connect with Ripcord Association?”
With a friend of mine who lives in Bridgewater. Who doesn’t live too far from me. About ten
miles. (1:10:00) I knew him quite a few years ago at where he worked and never really knew, I
guess, about Firebase Ripcord—the reunion—until I started talking to him again more recently.
And then he’s the one that said, “Why don’t you come down? You can meet some friends of
yours or, you know, some other guys that you were with.” And I’m happy I did.
Interviewer: “Okay, so this is your first time down here?”
Yes, it is.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. All right. Now, I guess, finally—I guess, to look back at the time
that you spent in the service, how do you think that affected you, or what did you learn
from it?”
I’ve learned discipline. I mean, I love the country, and I would do anything to defend the
country. I get a little upset with—You know, when I see some things that go on in the country. I
think it would be a good idea that it would be mandatory that they kind of sort of enact—I don’t
want to say the draft again—that it’s mandatory that somebody serve some type of time in the
�Tamburini, John
service, any branch of the service maybe for two years. And I think it would give everybody a
good baseline of discipline. A lot of people out there today—A lot of young people out there
today—I’m not—I’m not jealous of it, but I think, you know, they have the world in front of
them. And it’s okay, but I think there’s that other line of discipline, which I know I definitely
have—Which it’s given me.
Interviewer: “All right. Well, the whole thing makes for a pretty good story, so thank you
very much for taking the time to share it.”
Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you. (1:11:48)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_TamburiniJ2279V
Title
A name given to the resource
Tamburini, John (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-11-02
Description
An account of the resource
John Tamburini was born in New Brunswick, New Jersey, in 1948. He graduated high school in 1966 and entered a two-year program at a technical institute before recieving his draft notice in 1969. Tamburini underwent Basic Training at Fort Dix, New Jersey, and then reported to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, for advanced training where he opted to join the Noncommissioned Officers program. He was deployed to Vietnam in 1970 where he served in the 2nd of the 319th Artillery Battalion, 101st Airborne and was stationed at firebases Jack, Gladiator, Ripcord, and Bastogne. His unit participated in the siege of Firebase Ripcord during which he recieved the Purple Heart for continuing to fight even after being hit during a gunfight. After only a year in Vietnam, Tamburini recieved an early-out and returned to the U.S. He then began part-time work at an engineering firm and later switched to carpentry, which he continued to work for the rest of his career.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tamburini, John P.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e8d2bc05d48241c77f19538d1db0b79.mp4
4e53f0988a5c291ef822bec74c9ea1bc
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3c80e5610018e95a8cd28791cb5bd916
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam War
Bob Tarbuck
Length of interview (1:38:12)
(0:19) Background
Born July 4, 1949 in East Liverpool, Ohio (0:27)
Father worked in steel mill and mother stayed at home (0:45)
Had an older brother that was turned down by Air force due to asthma (1:15)
Graduated from East Liverpool high school in 1968 (1:30)
Worked at Homer Lockland China after graduation (1:38)
Knew about Vietnam War from the news and looked into it (2:15)
Received draft notice during the last week of March 1969 (2:45)
(3:00) Training
Sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky for basic training with 101st Airborne (3:06)
All the training toughened him up and prepared him for Vietnam (3:40)
Was confusing time for him; not used to the screaming and hollering (5:23)
Went to training with people from all over; for some, option of jail or military (6:08)
Fairly easy to adjust to discipline, but had trouble getting in physical shape (7:11)
Some people faked injury so they didn’t have to continue training (9:28)
Stayed in old World War II barracks that didn’t have warm water (10:15)
8 weeks of basic training before given Military Occupational Specialty (10:55)
Was designated as Combat Infantry went to Fort Dix, New Jersey, for AIT (11:20)
At Fort Dix learned to escape and evasion tactics and fired the M16 Rifle (14:00)
Military training taught him how to survive, even if he broke some rules (15:15)
Veteran drill sergeants put a lot of emphasis on paying attention to training (16:30)
Sent to Oakland, California for processing before being shipped to Vietnam (18:38)
(19:00) Active Duty
Took flight from California to Hawaii to Guam to Long Binh, Vietnam (19:25)
As they were landing the base was being rocketed; shuffled into a bunker (19:45)
First thing he noticed was the humidity and the odor (20:20)
Flown to Camp Evans and the plane went through aftermath of typhoon (23:00)
Assigned to A Shau Valley with C Company, 2nd battalion, 506th infantry (23:58)
First time being in a helicopter was on flight to the A Shau Valley (25:04)
When arrived at platoon, accepted right off the bat and given briefing (26:20)
Most of the platoon were veterans of battle of Hamburger Hill (27:47)
First night in field was scary due to the unknown, always had 2 men on watch (28:31)
Went back to Camp Evans for more training and briefing on next mission (29:50)
While in field encountered enemy ambushes and called airstrikes on bunkers (32:30)
Sometimes they called napalm strikes; when it exploded it sucked away all the air (33:37)
Took opening to be a machine gunner; carried M60 and had an assistant gunner (35:37)
During the Monsoon season activity slowed down due to inability to resupply (38:12)
�Sometimes the enemy would attack at night; this was most confusing (41:00)
(43:00) Active Duty Continued
If platoon leader was enthusiastic the men’s spirited stayed high (44:31)
Night operations were worst; couldn’t see at all and never knew what was ahead (45:45)
Moved to support Firebase Ripcord and the platoon took some casualties (47:33)
Started to rebuild Ripcord; laid out perimeter and helicopter dropped in artillery (49:48)
Called artillery fire in on enemy vehicle traffic in the A Shau Valley (55:12)
Sometimes the North Vietnamese used American weapons against them (57:06)
After helping establish Ripcord, towards end of April 1970, took time off and went to
Australia (1:01:18)
Critical to take hill 902 to have bird’s eye view of surrounding area (1:03:45)
Viet Cong started rocketing hill [July 1, 1970]and they had to call artillery on enemy
forces (1:04:16)
Given orders to defend hill overnight when usually they move to next position (1:07:53)
Around 3am the enemy started attacking their position from all directions (1:09:38)
The enemy was so close that they could hear them giving orders in Vietnamese (1:11:00)
Attack ended in the morning; found unexploded satchel charges laying around (1:13:11)
Next morning had lost some of his hearing; had to pick up dead bodies (1:15:10)
After battle of hill 902 went to Camp Evans for couple days then to hill 1000 (1:17:27)
Didn’t ever deal with civilian population but a lot of soldiers smoked pot (1:24:31)
Had to spend some time in the hospital due to bronchitis (1:26:19)
Flew from Cam Ranh Bay to Japan to Fort Lewis Washington (1:27:38)
Time in service not done yet; home for 30 days then sent to Germany (1:27:40)
Squad leader 1st infantry division while in Germany (1:28:25)
(1:30:00) Post Military Service
While in Germany, accepted for school at Kent State University (1:31:21)
Comfortable with military life; re-enlisted in the reserves for about 6 years (1:32:45)
Went back to work with Homer Lockland China; then at an oil refinery (1:33:50)
Started a contracting business, but sold it when his wife was sick (1:34:06)
Still feels comradery with people who are in the service (1:34:34)
Experience taught him leadership, discipline, helped discover himself (1:35:07)
Thinks draft should be re-instated; kids have it too easy nowadays (1:37:02)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
TarbuckB1450V
Title
A name given to the resource
Tarbuck, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2012
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tarbuck, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Tarbuck was born in East Liverpool, Ohio, in 1949 and was working there when he was drafted into the Army in 1969. He trained at Fort Campbell, Kentucky and at Fort Dix, New Jersey, before being sent to Vietnam, where he was assigned to C Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment in the 101st Airborne Division, which was operating in the A Shau valley. Toward the end of the year, they moved to Camp Evans and operated in that area until April, when they went into the hills north of the A Shau Valley and set up Fire Support Base Ripcord. He patrolled the Ripcord area for the next two months, and survived the enemy attack on their position on Hill 902 in early July. Not long afterward, he was sent to the rear with bronchitis, and then rotated back home. He served the remainder of his enlistment in Germany and left the service in 1971.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-10-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/61f67014cd3ed6a2d06f633c4f39d990.pdf
1868bf851d36a66ae9e23297402de9ad
PDF Text
Text
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Incunabula
Description
An account of the resource
The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1450/1500
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Incunabula Collection (DC-03)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Incunabula
Printing 1450-1500
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
it
la
nl
de
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Expositio in summulas Petri Hispani [folium 30]
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-03_030Tartaretus1494
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tartaretus, Pierre, 15th cent.
Description
An account of the resource
One leaf of Expositio in summulas Petri Hispani by Petrus Tartaretus. Printed in Paris by André Bocard in 1494. [GW M45223; ISTC it00032000]
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Paris: André Bocard
Subject
The topic of the resource
Incunabula
Printing 1450-1500
Tartaretus, Pierre, 15th cent.
Language
A language of the resource
la
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
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application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1494
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Seidman Rare Books Collection
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c0d26e37f3d36c6b97c0a691d8f72a21.mp4
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Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam
Dale Tauer
Interview Length: 1:00:27
Background (00:00:23)
Dale Grew up on a dairy farm in Minnesota with one brother and three sisters; he finished high
school but it was a “close call” although he graduated in 1969 (00:03:11)
His knowledge of what was going on in Vietnam was minimal as he didn't learn of anything
from school and only a bit from the newspaper; the war wasn't going so well and resulted in
negative press (00:03:34)
◦ Dale's father and uncle were World War II veterans and mentioned they weren't happy with
the direction of the way the war in Vietnam was going (00:03:55)
◦ Dale received his draft notice in the spring of his senior year of high school after he turned
18; his number was 53 (00:04:26)
▪ He tried to get into a community college to defer his draft notice although Dale and his
cousin devised a plan to get into Canada- the plan ultimately failed (00:05:20)
Once Dale went in to have his physical administered the word had gotten out via the
local sheriff about his plan to avoid service- Dale was considered a “run risk” and
wasn't allowed back home (00:05:57)
◦ Dale was flown out of Minneapolis the night of his physical; usually recruits had
a timeframe to come home and come back to training but this was not the case
for Dale (00:07:38)
Basic Training (00:07:42)
Dale went to Ft. Bragg in North Carolina for his basic training (00:07:53)
◦ After a eight week training program at Ft. Bragg, Dale went to Ft. Jackson in South
Carolina for AIT (Advanced Individual Training) (00:09:55)
▪ Dale was volunteered to go to Airborne Training School because no one else had
volunteered (00:10:06)
▪ Dale received weapons training during AIT; he trained with machine guns- M-16 and he
loved to hunt and was a good marksman (00:12:34)
He received orders late in 1969 to work as a clerical typist in Washington D.C.
inside a headquarters company (00:13:37)
Dale was there less than three weeks when he was forced to go onto a commercial
airliner with no luggage where they were headed to Vietnam (00:17:00)
From Anchorage, Alaska, Dale took off from a DC-10 and was stopped in Hawaii;
Dale stayed in Hawaii for ten days where he received his shots and gear (00:18:20)
Arrival in Vietnam (00:18:58)
Once again Dale was hung up, this time in Japan- He and another man were put on a cargo
plane to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam (He was once again without orders)(00:18:58)
◦ Because he had a lack of orders, Dale was assigned to patrol the perimeter of Cam Ranh
Bay for two weeks (00:19:22)
▪ Around March, 1970 and after fixing boat motors and mixing drinks for the other men,
Dale was assigned to be a jeep driver for an officer in Da Nang (00:21:01)
Dale flew up with the officer on a DC-130 transport plane to Da Nang to be a jeep
�driver (00:21:30)
◦ He was finally assigned to a unit, the 1st Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment,
101st Airborne Division (00:21:56)
▪ Dale's first in the field assignment was to man a radio in a helicopter for
another man by the name of Burger; although Dale was initially assigned to
work the radio, Burger was trained to work with radios and took it instead
(00:24:10)
▪ At the time, Dale was trained to be a slack man or point man- he initially
didn't really know what that involved but quickly learned it wasn't the best
position to be in (00:25:00)
Fear set in as Dale was brought to the ground by another serviceman- in
front of them were a stack of dead soldiers (00:26:03)
◦ While the platoon moved to the next area, Dale came across the body
of Burger- the man he previously had worked with; the body could
have very well have been Dale's own (00:27:39)
Purple Heart Recognition and Beyond (00:28:01)
Along the way, Dale was hit with shrapnel which required him to go to the first aid station once
he was back at base- he then received the military decoration of the Purple Heart (00:28:01)
◦ The injury wasn't too bad as he went out onto his next mission- Dale worked as slack to
Randy Bink moving up a mountain when Bink noticed they walked past two enemy
soldiers; Bink pulled the pin on a grenade while Dale threw a grenade of his own out into a
trench (00:32:28)
▪ At this point, Dale mentions he was making friends and getting familiar within the
platoon although they would either get killed or wounded quite quickly (00:33:43)
▪ Dale operated in squad sized units where “it seemed they never had more than a dozen
guys or any more than that, as they were always short” (00:34:50)
Dale hardly saw platoon or company officers, if ever; the leaders or officers wouldn't
patrol with the other men (00:35:30)
◦ At one point while resting at a fire base, Dale was bitten by a rat which required
an intensive round of rabies shots in the stomach area (00:36:34)
▪ By July of 1970, fighting around Firebase Ripcord was heating up- Dale
mentions how it got progressively worse while on patrol as far as contact
with the enemy goes (00:37:07)
▪ Dale came across a hospital complex where him and the other men had to
flush through it; this location had lights and a generator (00:37:07- 00:38:48)
Dale was in the Ripcord area doing guard duty in the summer of 1970; he
mentioned he was relieved from his hole position by a man named Curlyas Dale was walking across the fire base an explosion hit where Curly
was and killed him (00:39:40)
◦ There was a lack of experienced men due to the conditions as his unit
would keep getting new people (00:41:30)
▪ Dale recalls his involvement in Ripcord (Battle of Fire Support
Base Ripcord) around July 20th, 1970- (00:42:30)
▪ Dale and the other men around him were scrambling from tree to
tree as they took fire from the North Vietnamese Army (NVA); his
group took a few casualties as he describes in graphic detail
(00:46:06)
�▪
▪
▪
The last memory Dale has of Ripcord is a NVA soldier firing an
RPG towards him and a fellow soldier (00:48:08)
His memory of what happened that day at Ripcord is hazy as he
only remembers a few scenes from that day (00:51:22) [He was
badly injured and the enemy took him for dead and left him on
the field, where he was found by some of his comrades and
brought back]
Dale suffered a pretty bad concussion and only remembered a few
things over the next month (00:51:41)
Post-Vietnam (00:51:58)
Dale was sent to a hospital back to the United States for surgery on his shoulder where he was
then sent to Minneapolis, Minnesota to a Veterans Affairs (VA) hospital (00:52:40)
◦ Dale had mixed emotions after his time in Vietnam about the war; he was confused about
the whole thing- he hated the anti-war protesters but also hated the war (00:53:30)
▪ Dale was sent home back to his farm after his father suffered from a heart attack
(00:54:05)
After his time in the military, Dale tended to the farm and met his wife where they
had three kids- after the third child his wife suffered from postpartem depression and
committed suicide (00:54:56)
Dale found work raising turkey and cattle, building hog farms and senior assisted
housing (00:56:31)
Dale mentions him and his friend had trouble holding regular jobs after their time in
Vietnam; Dale has trouble sleeping and wakes up frequently (00:57:18)
◦ Dale reluctantly met up with the Ripcord Association- the need to know what
happened at Ripcord was always there but he buried the thoughts up until then
(00:58:53)
▪ Dale and one of his buddies felt guilt about the whole situation; they felt they
had let those who had died down from Ripcord (00:59:06)
Dale tried to reconnect with the family of one of his fellow servicemen
and was told to stay away from the family by the man's brother
(01:00:27)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
TauerD1541V
Title
A name given to the resource
Tauer, Dale (Interview outline and video), 2013
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tauer, Dale
Description
An account of the resource
Dale Tauer was born in Minnesota and graduated from high school in 1969. Dale tried to devise a plan to avoid being drafted but ultimately was issued as a "run risk." He started basic training in Ft. Bragg, North Carolina and went to the 101st infantry regiment. After receiving orders to work as a clerical typist in Washington D.C., Dale was sent to Vietnam in 1970 and was assigned to D Company, 1st Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. He spent several months in the field patrolling with his unit until he was badly injured near Firebase Ripcord on July 20th, 1970. The enemy left him for dead, but he was found by other American soldiers and evacuated.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-10-12
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Benjamin Taylor
(00:53:26)
(00:20) Background Information
• Benjamin was born in Allegan County, Michigan in 1921
• His father was a farmer and also a minister with the Church of Nazarene
• They moved around Michigan a lot when he was younger
• Benjamin went to school through the eighth grade
(2:15) Civilian Conservation Corps
• After school Ben joined a CCC Camp because there were no jobs and not much
else for him to do
• Most of the money he made got sent back to his family, but he was taken care of
• Benjamin worked at two different CCC Camps for about six months each
(3:30) National Guard June 1940
• Again, there were not many jobs available, so Benjamin joined the National
Guard
• He went through training at Camp McCoy in Wisconsin
• Benjamin was part of the 32nd Division and they spent most of their time working
on field exercises out in the woods
• The National Guard was federalized in October of 1940
• The 32nd Division was mobilized and Benjamin was sent to Louisiana
• He went through more field training and weapons training
• Much of the equipment and weapons they worked with were from World War
One
(12:05) Pearl Harbor
• Benjamin was at home on furlough when Pearl Harbor was attacked; everyone
was then called back to the base
• No one was exactly sure what was going on or what they would be doing next
• Benjamin was sent to Fort Devens in Massachusetts in the Spring of 1942
• He was expecting to soon be sent to Europe, but had all of a sudden been ordered
to board a troop train to San Francisco
• The trip took six days and they spent much time waiting for the ship to arrive
(12:55) Overseas
• They boarded a luxury ship heading into the Pacific
• Benjamin had never been on a big ship before, but he was only a little queasy
• The voyage lasted 21 days and they finally landed in Adelaide, Australia
(17:30) Adelaide
�•
•
•
•
Here they camped out in the woods, which were quite different from those in the
US
The Australians were very nice and many of them allowed US troops to stay in
their homes or invited them over for dinner
They were short on gas and many things were running off coal
They boarded a train to another city [Brisbane] where they trained for New
Guinea
(20:35) New Guinea
• They landed in Port Moresby and the Japanese were already trying to attack, but
had been way off on their targets
• The Japanese did succeed in sinking a supply ship off the coast full of
ammunition
• Benjamin was with a group that walked across the island trying to meet the
Japanese heading for Australia
• They had to carry about 70 pounds on their backs and the mosquitoes were very
bad
• The natives were all very friendly and offered them fruit to eat
(27:00) Combat Near Buna
• Benjamin was a sergeant, leading the first squad of the third platoon [of Company
C, 126th Infantry Regiment] through the mountains
• They had been sent to a deserted plantation to get a boat running and look for
Japanese
• The boat was having mechanical problems and they had to travel on further until
running into Australians that helped with extra parts for the boat
(33:40) Replacement of Chief Engineer
• The Chief Engineer had gotten sick and was sent back to Australia; Benjamin was
chosen to take his place
• Benjamin had never worked on boats before, but eventually got the hang of it and
became friends with the captain
• He was able to sleep in the sails at night on the boat
• Most of the crew were Australians
(37:10) Buna
• It was easy for Benjamin to sleep at night, but during the day he was always
hungry and no one ever got enough food
• Many of the orders they received were disorderly and they were always short on
supplies
• Communications were disorganized, but they always had enough ammunition
• Benjamin was injured when he was shot in the spine
• An aid many helped him and many other men had to drag him out of the jungle
back to camp
(43:25) Australia
�•
•
•
•
•
Benjamin was flown back to Australia and sent in a train to a hospital
He spent 13 months in rehabilitation
Many men were coming in from Guadalcanal
He had a very bad spinal injury and could not sit up or every move much at all
Benjamin was later sent back to the US, but had wanted to stay in Australia until
he had recovered
(47:25) Recovery
• Benjamin was sent to a Veterans hospital in Detroit, Michigan
• He was still in a lot of pain and taking about 22 pills a day, wearing a leg brace
• He was eventually sent home on a bus, but could still not walk as well as he once
had
• He is still paralyzed and can walk with a cane, but has no sense of balance
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
TaylorB
Title
A name given to the resource
Taylor, Benjamin (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Taylor, Benjamin
Description
An account of the resource
Benjamin Taylor was born in Allegan County, Michigan in 1921 and went to school through the eighth grade. After serving in the Civilian Conservation Corps for about a year, he joined the National Guard in June 1940; the National Guard was federalized in October 1940. He shipped out to Australia with the 32nd (Red Arrow) Division in the spring of 1942, and eventually went to New Guinea, where he was badly wounded near Buna.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-05-29
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Chet Teater
(00:28:21)
(00:15) Background Information
• Chet was born on February 25, 1946
• He fought in Vietnam and was a Army Specialist 4 with the tank service
• Chet was born in Benton Harbor, Michigan and grew up in Caledonia
• His father was a farmer and also ran a dye cast factory
• There were six children in his family and his mother stayed at home
• His brother was in the Navy during the 60s and Uncle had fought in Guadalcanal
during World War Two
• Chet had worked with a telephone company before being drafted in 1969
(2:40) The Army
• Chet went through basic training at Fort Knox in Tennessee
• He then was sent to Fort Benning and began working in a specialized training
armor unit
• Chet received his assignment to be sent to Vietnam in 1970
• Military life was hard for him at first, but he believes that it would probably be
easier to adjust to now
• There was much conformity and everyone was made out to be the same
• He became very close with some men and still talks to some of them today
• Chet arrived in Vietnam on January 1, 1970 and left that same year on December
31
(6:10) Vietnam
• Chet often worked with the D Troop 17th Armored Cavalry of the 199th Infantry
Brigade
• They provided detail security for roads, supply for firebase camps, and went on
search and destroy missions
• Chet has got in touch with many old friends from Vietnam using the internet
• He had not spoken to some of the men for about thirty years, but they were able to
find him years later
(9:15) Life After the Service
• Chet began working with the phone company again after his time in the service
• His family helped him to re-adjust to civilian life and forget about the war
• He joined the American Legion and is now Commander of the Caledonia Region
Post 305
• Chet received the Kent County Veteran of the Year Award
(10:40) Citizens
• Many of the people in Vietnam were nice, especially the “montagnards”
�•
•
•
•
The large military base that they lived on was later completely removed by the
Vietnamese because they had wanted all the materials
During the war the men had to keep watch on the roads because the Vietnamese
would try to rip it up and take pieces of tar for material
There were many desperate people that went through their garbage
Chet went with some other men to visit some orphanages and donate money
(16:00) Driving Armored Vehicles
• Chet had been a driver and later became a Commander, working with Armored
Personnel Carriers, which were like “boxes with tracks”
• He has a good memory of all his experiences and lost some really good friends
• Combat was often scary with things often exploding all of a sudden all around
you
• Chet experienced combat two days after arriving in which they had to rescue that
had been tied down
• Yet most of the time it was boring, working on guard duty in very hot and dirty
conditions
(20:35) R & R
• Chet had a choice of Italy or Australia and chose the latter
• He spent most of his ten days in Sydney and it was fantastic, but very depressing
when it was over
(23:00) Agent Orange
• Vietnam was filled with green foliage and tons of mosquitoes
• Agent Orange was spray all over all the bases to kill the growth
• Almost everyone that fought in Vietnam was exposed to the chemical, especially
those that worked with armored vehicles because the tracks dug up so much dust
• The chemical affects everyone differently and some people got cancer from it
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
TeaterC
Title
A name given to the resource
Teater, Chet (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Teater, Chet
Description
An account of the resource
Chet Teater was born in Benton Harbor, Michigan in 1946 and was drafted into the Army in 1969. He served with an armored cavalry unit in Vietnam in 1970 and participated in an assortment of combat missions and security assignments. He discusses combat conditions in Vietnam, the Agent Orange issue, and relations with Vietnamese civilians.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-06-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives