820 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2fba0e8d9fad1a82586d4c45c9b89339.mp4 bd2838ebc9788ebfa27ae6194b683502 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d42db02b16e80cdb9027b93e6a9d1ec.pdf 0dddd10ee42f0d78a68f1cd3ea39df24 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Eugene Smith Interview Length: (00:56:00:00) Early Life/ Early Military Experience (00:00:21:17)  Worked in a men’s clothing store during high school years (00:00:22:00)  After leaving job in apparel, worked in a defense plant making artillery shells (00:00:30:00)  Born in Wisconsin (00:00:50:00)  Drafted to the Army at 19 years old (00:00:39:00) o Was sent to a fort near Chicago, Illinois for a few days to retrieve some equipment (00:00:55:00)  Was then sent to Miami, Florida for training (00:01:03:00) o First went through a 6- week basic training program (00:01:11:27) o Did all training on the streets and golf courses of Miami Beach (00:01:17:00) o Stayed in hotels that had been turned into “army barracks” (00:01:30:00) o Was not use to working in the hot Florida climate after having been in the Midwestern city of Chicago and took roughly two weeks to adapt (00:01:45:00)  Had excellent instruction (00:02:14:19) o Received the “same training that a policeman gets (00:02:19:00) o Had physical training, lectures, demonstrations, practice with partners, and more (00:02:29:00)  Was then sent to fort Benjamin Harrison near Indianapolis, Indiana (00:02:45:00) o Received “advanced basic training” here, which was far more intense (00:02:50:00) o Enjoyed the training and frequently “made jokes more than we complained” (00:02:59:00) o Was extremely hot, which was used as a method of preparing the men for the climates they would have to endure when they were deployed (00:03:13:00)  Was able to visit family by train while in Chicago because of the close proximity to home in Wisconsin (00:03:29:17) Active Duty (00:03:58:07)  Moved by “troop train” from Indianapolis to Los Angeles, then to India by boat (00:04:00:00) o Their travels took them straight South down the Pacific Ocean (00:04:25:00) o Ship was a “very fast converted luxury liner” with a top speed of 32 Knots and could hold 8,500 troops (00:04:35:00) o Ship had only one 5- inch gun on its rear (00:05:15:00) o Traveled around Africa in order to avoid Japanese submarines in the Western Pacific, then traveled East near Antarctica, and stopped briefly at the island of Tasmania where they stayed for 3 days to refuel and rest (00:05:30:00)  When stopped in Tasmania, only allowed on land as a unit (00:06:13:00) o The streets of the island were barren (00:06:29:00) �         Was asked by a local if he wanted a “biscuit” while marching through Tasmania (00:06:28:00) o Accepted the offer, because the soldiers were always hungry (00:06:49:00) After returning to the boat, realized that 4 men were missing (00:07:20:00) o One man “jumped ship” to escape duty in India (00:07:29:00) o Other 3 men hadn’t realized that the ship already left and were forced to seek Tasmanian assistance to get them out to meet the ship and climb aboard. All 3 were arrested and “restricted to the boat” afterwards (00:07:37:00) After leaving Tasmania, headed Southwest of India to avoid Japanese submarines stationed in the Indian Ocean before heading North again, passing reaching presentday Sri Lanka, and finally arriving at Mumbai, India (00:09:40:00) o Mumbai was their “first look at India” (00:10:19:00) Stayed there for only a few days before being sent to a British camp North of Mumbai where they only stayed a few days (00:10:23:00) Did not have any supplies with them, so the hired camp cooks were sent to purchase food for the new arrivals (00:10:52:00) o The cooks came back with goats, which nobody cared for: both taste and the method by which they were cooked (00:11:10:00) o After finding something particularly unpleasant in the goat food, they rioted, destroying the “mess hall” (00:11:42:00) o The next morning, the Indian cooks had prepared “the most beautiful breakfast I’d ever seen” (00:12:25:00) After leaving the camp, boarded a train to present day Chennai, India (00:13:00:00) o The area near Chennai was “appalling” as children were starving, poverty was high, destructive monsoons were frequent, and famine plagued all the land (00:13:22:00) o In one particular town, donated half a plate of food to the starving children, although the child was unable to eat it because it included meat (00:14:23:00) Once arrived in Chennai, the men were put on another ship to Calcutta, India (00:15:10:00) o The ship was “a real rattle- trap boat” (00:15:19:00) o Ship was not a military utility vehicle, and was not properly equipped (00:15:21:00) o The ship took them through the Bay of Bengal to the city of Calcutta, India (00:15:36:00) o The trip to Calcutta was very difficult due to the lack of basic necessities, some attacks by Japanese submarines, and encounters with dangerous wildlife such as water snakes (00:15:47:00) When they reached Calcutta, stayed only a few days while in transit at a camp called “Dum Dum”, related to the name of a nearby village (00:17:55:00) o American Airport nearby was called “Dum Dum airport” (00:18:08:00) Then boarded some “river boats” and trucks to Coimbatore, India, arriving on Christmas Eve (00:18:25:00) o Was extremely cold when they arrived (00:18:50:00) o That Christmas Eve, around 2:30 A.M., some women from the Red Cross Association brought doughnuts for the men and a small gift (00:19:07:00) �        Were then assigned to barracks with walls made of woven bamboo and a roof made of thatch; each of which held roughly 40 men (00:19:36:00) o Were required to use a mosquito net every night, which forced the men to use rope to lace it around the barracks, consequently making it difficult to sleep (00:20:01:00) o The next day, the men were permitted to go into town to get mattresses, which costed about $3.00 in domestic American currency at the time and made sleeping much more comfortable (00:20:50:00) Was a military policeman (00:21:21:16) o In charge of base security only (00:21:24:00) o Tasks involved patrol by motorcycle, jeep, or on foot of various posts on the base such as the airstrip and finance office (00:21:31:00) o Shifts were usually 6 hours of duty and 18 hours off duty, although there were still tasks that needed completion during the free 18 hours (00:21:55:00) o Also guarded prisoners and anything else “to do with protection” (00:22:08:00) o Carried a 45 semi- automatic rifle and a night stick besides any special duties that would require additional firearms (00:22:16:00) o Patrol of the bomb site required one soldier to carry Napalm along with other weaponry (00:22:40:00) Many structures on the base were constructed with local vegetation, much like the army barracks made of bamboo, in order to keep the men cool (00:23:24:00) Roads on the base were not straight and tended to weave through the jungle (00:23:51:00) The entire base was shaded by trees for camouflage, with the exception of the airstrip. However air travel was still designed to be stealth (00:24:05:00) o The base was “primitive but very interesting” (00:24:38:00) First mission while in India was to bomb Japanese supply bases in Burma, a country in Southeast Asia (00:24:47:00) o American bomber planes, both B-25’s and P-38’s, would assemble before nightfall and fly over Burma to drop bombs, targeting particularly bridges in order to disrupt road travel (00:25:00:00) o American bombers would return to India by late morning, and repeat the process the following day (00:25:50:00) Soldiers were allowed to take leave at a “rest camp” (00:26:20:00) o This was unappealing for most because they did not want to be stuck in a camp on break (00:26:30:00) o Regardless of undesirable circumstances, took the opportunity to take leave at the camp whenever the opportunity was available (00:26:40:00) o Went a total of 2 times (00:26:52:00) o One time, went with two other men, and another time, went with 3 others (00:26:55:00) On one trip on temporary leave, went to Darjeeling, India (00:27:09:00) o Geography consisted of mostly very moist jungle along with the Himalayas (00:27:25:00) o In the mountains, it was “beautifully cool” (00:27:35:00) �o Was able to take a horse ride to see Mount Everest (00:30:00:00)  On another temporary leave, went to Lucknow, India (00:32:00:00) o Very hot, dry city (00:32:07:00) o Decided that the climate was not tolerable, instead went up to New Delhi, India to sightsee, then traveled up to the mountains and remained there for the rest of the allotted time (00:32:13:00)  Original voyage to India took 44 days (00:33:02:00) o Took 1 month to return home (00:33:11:00) o The entire deployment lasted a total of 28 months, with 24-25 spent in India (00:33:20:00)  Took a different route to get home, and after returning, had traveled around the world (00:33:35:00) o Traveled through the Suez Canal, across the Mediterranean sea, and across the Atlantic Ocean before coming ashore in New York (00:33:40:00) o All were very excited to be going home, particularly about the “very good” food that was served on the way (00:33:56:11) o Encountered a hurricane while traveling through the Mediterranean, making the route back to the United State rather uncomfortable for those onboard (00:34:45:11) o Men had 3 “meal tickets” for each day, which was punched each time a meal was taken (00:36:10:00) o Because the other men were terribly sea sick, had extra meals by asking for unused meal tickets (00:36:30:00) o Encountered the eye of the the hurricane when reached the Straits of Gibraltar. The hurricane continued into the Atlantic Ocean, causing the ship to behave violently in the unstable waters (00:37:00:00) o As dangerous as traveling conditions were, only a day of progress was lost to the storm (00:37:39:00) Post- Military Experience (00:39:00:00)  Was discharged on January 1st, 1946 (00:39:03:00) o Went back to Illinois by train and received a pay- out of $300 to “get back home” after returning all equipment (00:39:18:00)  Was able to return to job as a time keeper at the fencing plant (00:39:45:11)  Decided to go to college because the G.I. Bill of 1944 covered all veteran tuition and any additional higher education costs plus an additional $90 per month “to live on” (00:40:16:00) o In September 1946, began higher education at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin (00:40:37:00) o Each veteran received 1 month of paid college per month of active duty in the united states and 2 months of paid college per month of active duty overseas, according to the G.I. Bill of 1944 (00:33:56:11) o Earned a Bachelor’s of Science degree in Botany and a Master’s degree in Botany (00:40:56:00)  After graduating, got a teaching job at Aquinas College and moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1951 (00:42:12:00)  After retiring, moved to Lowell, Michigan (00:42:36:00) �  * Explains War Artifacts* (00:43:00:00) - (00:51:35:00) Has since lost contact with many old military friends (00:53:18:00) Service in the army was “one life, and when it was over with, it was done” (00:53:54:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmithENoID Title A name given to the resource Smith, Eugene (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Eugene Description An account of the resource Eugene Smith was drafted to the United States Army in the 1940's. He was stationed in Calcutta, India for a total of 28 months. Although the American troops deployed to India at this time were intended to attack Axis supply lines coming from the country of Burma, Smith was not actively involved in this mission and served as a military policeman. His duties consisted of primarily base patrol with occasional prisoner safeguarding. The base which Smith was stationed was highly underdeveloped and demanded fast adaptation by new recruits who had been thrust into highly dangerous positions from a previous life of suburban factory work. The 44-day voyage to India presented Smith and the other young American men with unfamiliar situations including attacks by Japanese submarines, hurricanes, and extended sea travel. Smith was discharged on January 1st 1946 and returned to his home in Wisconsin to attend Marquette University funded by the GI Bill of 1944. Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-05-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/beb15f2a3ea86f3692dca916841d7f04.mp4 85b0b423a8bacf79f8550ea4701b3aa1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25fd3afab44808ba10fa281c11b4785c.pdf 5c464687ffaaddf3f944a132b1e140b0 PDF Text Text George Smith (16:36) (00:10) Background Information • George was born on April 28, 1922 in Coopersville, Michigan • His parents farmed • He went to South Evergreen School through 8th grade • George stopped going to school to help on the farm and was drafted into the Army in 1942 when he was 20 years old (2:10) Training • George trained at Fort Benning, Georgia • They hiked, shot guns, and shot artillery • He was assigned to 105th Artillery Division (Battalion?) • George went through maneuvers in Tennessee in the summer of 1943 • He then went to Camp Gordon, Georgia (3:45) Deployment • He left from New York and spent about two weeks at sea • George got seasick on the way over • They landed in France and stayed there for about a month • He moved up to a Corporal and was a Gunner • Their job was to support the infantry with artillery • When they first landed they lived in tents and then slept in their tanks • They pulled off the front lines in Germany to go help at Bastogne, Belgium because the Germans were pushing through and taking the town • His unit was set up outside of the city (7:45) Wounded • They were hit with a mortar and one of the men was killed while three of them were injured �• George was hit in the leg • He was brought to a makeshift hospital but it was full so they took him down the street to a house • During the night the Germans bombed the town • The house he was staying in had all of the windows blown out • The hospital that he had been diverted from received a direct hit, killing everyone except one nurse • George was then taken to horse arena that had been converted to a hospital and everyone got gas gangrene • He lost his left leg below the knee and his big toe on his right foot • George only saw elderly civilians still living in the towns • He ended up in England and then was flown to Glasgow, Scotland • George took a ship called the Queen Mary to New York • He received a Purple Heart, a Sharpshooter’s Badge, a WWII victory medal and a Presidential Citation • He didn’t really know what was going on with the war while he was overseas • The Battle of the Bulge was a bad experience with 80,000 Allied deaths (12:17) Back Home • George was sent to a hospital in Texas where he spent 13 months • When he returned home he worked at a shop, but was laid off • He got a job with the Post Office in Spring Lake, Michigan • George retired from the post office after 25 years • He thinks Saving Private Ryan was a good depiction of WWII • George also thinks people should go into the Military for 2 years • He didn’t regret going into the Military and enjoyed the experience � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmithG Title A name given to the resource Smith, George (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, George Description An account of the resource George Smith was born in Coopersville, Michigan on April 28, 1922. George was drafted into the Army when he was 20 years old. He was assigned to the 105th Artillery and mostly trained in Georgia. George landed in France and moved into Germany where his job was to support the infantry with artillery. His unit was pulled off the front lines in Germany to help out in Bastone, Belgium where he was wounded by a mortar. George was put in a horse arena that was converted into a hospital and got gas gangrene. He lost his left leg and his big toe on his right foot. George was sent home and spent over a year at a hospital in Texas. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCauslin, Kelly Spring Lake District Area Library (Spring Lake, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53d6e32a248b7e8a9884fc4f1e9440b7.m4v 710fe2fb8c2154f3c611673a90bb5058 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dff524aad3ae2e0954db52e451b3ec72.pdf 9c9a51bef94866f5aa8b9501dfbaad90 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Helen “Gig” Smith Length of Interview: (01:02:00) Transcribed by: Sean Duffie, March 1, 2010 Interviewer: We’re talking today with Helen Smith of Richmond, Virginia Gig Smith: Gig Interviewer: Everyone called you Gig, so, okay. She’s a veteran of the Women’s Army Corps from the Second World War, as well as a player for the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and this interview is going to cover both of these, because both fall under the privy of the Library of Congress Veterens history project. The Interviewer is James Smither, of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now, Gig, can you start by telling us a little bit about your own background, to begin with: where and when were you born? Gig Smith: I was born January the 5th, 1922, and I lived in Virginia, Richmond. I think I was interest in sports since the day I was born. Interviewer: Do you remember how early you started playing baseball, or softball? Gig Smith: Yes, when I was thirteen. And I played for Lucky Strike. (1:00) They didn’t know when I was playing, they didn’t know how old I was, and when they found out how old I was, they let me go. Then I went joined another team. Interviewer: You said you were playing for Lucky Strike, the cigarette brand. Now, did the tobacco companies sponsor teams? Gig Smith: Well, they sponsored their own players, not outsiders Interviewer: Now how did you get to be on one of those teams? Gig Smith: Well, everybody went to the playground in those days, and that’s where it really started. Interviewer: Were you playing baseball or were you playing softball? Gig Smith: Softball, fast pitch. �Interviewer: Okay, and fast pitch softball, was that overhand or underhand? Gig Smith: Under. A little bit of side arm. Interviewer: Now, what position did you normally play? Gig Smith: 3rd base Interviewer: How good was your throwing arm? Gig Smith: Pretty good. Interviewer: Now, could you hit well? (2:00) Gig Smith: Yes, I was fourth, always fourth hitter. Interviewer: Let’s back up a little bit here. Tell me, what did your family do for a living in those days? Gig Smith: My mother was a nurse before she became married, and my father worked for the city, and he was a CPA. He worked at city hall. Interviewer: That sounds like a fairly secure job, so he could keep that during that depression? Gig Smith: Mmhmm. He helped to support other people in the family, when they lost their jobs. We doubled up., which everybody did in those days. Interviewer: Did you finish high school? Gig Smith: Yes, and I received the athletic trophy, Most Athletic, when I graduated. That was a graduating class of over 500, so that was guess that was pretty good. (3:00) Interviewer: So what other sports did you play besides softball? Gig Smith: Everything that they let me get into. I majored in four sports in high school Interviewer: And what were the other sports? Gig Smith: Track, tennis, field hockey and basketball Interviewer: These days, girls have a lot of opportunities for sports, but you were doing pretty much what was available to you at the time. �Gig Smith: That was everything that was there. Nowadays they concentrate on one sport. I did them all. Interviewer: Well, how were you able to fit all of them in? Gig Smith: Well, they were after school. Interviewer: They had them on different days? Gig Smith: And different seasons Interviewer: In what year did you graduate from high school? Gig Smith: 1940. (4:00) Interviewer: Then what did you do once you finished school? Gig Smith: I worked for a photo finishing place until I heard that Pearl Harbor announced on the radio. Then I went back to the kitchen where my mother was, and I said, they bombed Pearl Harbor. And my brother was already in the navy. And I said I wished that they had something for women to do. I’d love to go in. And two months after that, they started the auxiliary corps, and two months after that, it became the army. Interviewer: Did you remember when you first heard about the auxiliary corps? Gig Smith: Well, that was army; all I knew was the branches of service… Interviewer: Was it advertised or announced in the news that they were recruiting women? Gig Smith: Oh, yeah. Interviewer: How did the recruiting process work? Where did you go to sign up? Gig Smith: I went to the Marines first, and they didn’t want any women in the marines, but they had to take them. (5:00) The fellow at the recruiting station was very rude-- he kept his head down and wrote-- and I stood there waiting. It seems like a half hour but it couldn’t have been more than a few minutes. Then he said, what do you want? And that threw me back. And I said, what do you mean what do I want? I’d like to know a little bit about the Marines. He said-- still writing and still not looking up-- what do you want to know about the Marines? And all I know is I wanted to get out of there. I don’t remember what was said after that, and I could hardly wait to get out of there, and I walked down those steps and down about 8 blocks to the Army recruiting station. The fellow was totally different. He �was opposite of the rough old marine that didn’t look immaculate in his dress, (6:00) and this was a young black fellow that stood up and introduced himself and put his hand out when he introduced himself, and he said, “What can I help you with?” And I said, “I’d like to know a little bit about the Army.” And he said, “Have a seat and we’ll see what we can do.” And I asked… I wanted to know if there’s any way of getting any type of art work in the service. And he said, well, I’d say you’d have about 98 chances out of 100 you won’t get it because there’s very little being done, and I thought, he’s very polite and he’s honest, and if this is the way they ought to treat me, I’ll join. So I went home that night, and my brother was already in the navy and my sister was with her husband—he was stationed in New York. (7:00) I told my family, my mother wasn’t very well at that time, but I took a chance and I said I joined the army today— not having joined it—just to see what their reaction was going to be. And there was dead silence and I said uh-oh, I sunk. Finally my father said, well how do you know you’re going to like it? I said, I don’t know, but that’s the chance I’ll have to take. And that’s all that was said, so the next day I went back and signed up Interviewer: When you walked into that army recruiting office, and there was a black soldier there, were you surprised to see him there? Gig Smith: No. Interviewer: Because this is still the era of segregation, and the army was segregated. Gig Smith: Well, I’ve always been different in my ideas, and I was taught to handle things like that differently by my family, thank goodness. (8:00) Interviewer: At this point, the army itself was still segregated so they don’t desegregate… Gig Smith: Well, I didn’t know. Interviewer: And it was perfectly normal to you when you walked in and he behaved like a good person? Gig Smith: Extremely polite and very immaculate in his dress, totally different from the marine. Interviewer: The Marine quite likely was somebody they pulled off from some other duty some place and just stuck him there. So when you go back to sign up then, what’s the process? �Gig Smith: I don’t know; that’s a little blurry. I just signed up and they told me when I’d be leaving. There were street cars in those days, and I remember driving to the railroad station. (9:00) Interviewer: Where did they send you for training? Gig Smith: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia Interviewer: And where in Georgia was Fort Oglethorpe? Gig Smith: It’s in the northern part. Interviewer: And what kind of facility was it? What did it look like? Gig Smith: Normal army barracks, wooden, nothing to brag about. We had stoves that you had to stoke with the coal. It was rough, but I liked it. Interviewer: About how many women were in the group you were training with? Gig Smith: I would say probably fifty to one hundred. I don’t remember. Interviewer: What sort of people did they have training you or supervising you? Gig Smith: We had officers and then we had noncommissioned officers that handled us. Interviewer: Were these women or men? (10:00) Gig Smith: Women Interviewer: Did you have the impression that some of these women had been in the army a while, or were they all pretty new? Gig Smith: Well, we were all pretty new in those days. Interviewer: What kind of training did they actually give you? Did they have you marching around? Gig Smith: Absolutely. PT every morning. Physical training. And when we got to hours after my basic training, I was sent to Headquarters Company on the fort. I was part of the headquarters company, and they had various places where we went out to do our jobs. I was assigned to publications, and I got art work. So, that was very unusual, because he told me I probably wouldn’t. (11:00) We made all the training aids, and we illustrated the post newspaper, made illustrations. Publications was just one of the services the Headquarters Company serviced. �Interviewer: You had mentioned this before, where did your interest in art come from? Gig Smith: I just always drew. I don’t know. Just like the sports. Interviewer: So you‘d always done that. Had you taken art classes in high school? Gig Smith: (12:00) And after school. I didn’t think there was a chance for me to go to college, because in those days, the boys always got the first chance to go, and I knew I wouldn’t go. So I played in school, I really did, I played everything. Art was everything to me, but once I got out of army, and had a chance to go, then my grades were totally different, and I had excellent grades then. Interviewer: Did you just do drawing or did you do painting? Gig Smith: Everything. Ceramics. Everything. Anything I could get my hands on. Interviewer: Tell me a little bit more about the training part and life on the base here. You mentioned you did physical training. Did you have to learn army discipline and following the rules? Gig Smith: Oh yeah. When I was finally settled in the Headquarters Company, every six weeks had physical training that they tested you on, and if you got over a certain score, you were exempt for the next six weeks. I got the high score. (13:00) So they put me in charge of getting up in the morning to train those ones that couldn’t even do a situp. So the next six week, I didn’t get the high score, and I was out of there. Interviewer: Was that by design? Gig Smith: Yes! Who wants to get up in the morning to train people who couldn’t do anything? Interviewer: At this base where you were, were there a lot of male soldiers training too? Gig Smith: We had a company of male soldiers there, but these were for various jobs on the post, and we worked with some of them, but mostly we had women. Interviewer: (14:00) What kind of rules did they have governing contact with male soldiers, or anything else like that? To what extent did they keep you separate? �Gig Smith: Well, they were stationed in a different part of the fort, and I really don’t know where they were, but they came to work. They worked in Publications, a couple of them, various jobs. Interviewer: And did you have any supervisory responsibilities? Did you tell anyone else what to do? Gig Smith: No, not at that time. Interviewer: How long did you stay at that? Gig Smith: Only for the duration of the war. All the transfers were frozen. Everyone wanted to out of Fort Oglethorpe. (15:00) And the only people who could get you out of there was the Pentagon, which was the headquarters company for the war. And I don’t know how I was chosen, but I was requisitioned to go to the Pentagon. I was with all nice people, with cooks and bakers, they’d have had me washing pots and pans the rest of my life. Interviewer: When did they send you up to the Pentagon? Gig Smith: About half way through. Before I left, I went from Publications, over to cadre. Cadre runs the headquarters company. I was in cadre for a little while, that was when they called me to the Pentagon. I had to sit outside for a week while they did a three-way clearance. (16:00) I don’t have past that – because I’m joking – but they had to come to Richmond and interview a lot of people before they let you into the office. But that was wonderful, I was with a great great bunch of people there. We had about 200 people in that office, that were specialists in everything Japanese. They were specialists. I don’t’ know how I got there. Interviewer: What duties did you have there? Gig Smith: We had people on islands that the Japanese didn’t know about, and if the Japanese had known about them, they would have of course beheaded them. (17:00) But they intercepted their codes, Jap codes, as the ships went by. They sent them to our department. Now, I did not do the decoding, but it was within our department. It was all secret. Everything that they sent us – little pieces of paper with information on it, where the ships were, what they were carrying, what the weight of the ship was – they sent to us to plot on these maps, and we determined which ones would be bombed, which would help to shorten the war. Actually, we were as close to the war as you could get for not being there.(18:00) It was fascinating. Interviewer: What kind of work did you do for them in that, if you’re not doing the decrypting? �Gig Smith: We were taking the ones that they had decoded, and we plotted them out on the maps. We had special cards – everything’s different today, such an advancement in technology – and we took what was on those cards, and we plotted them on the maps and we had special couriers to fly it over. And it had to be done as it came in, it was very fast, because these ships were moving. Sometimes we’d have to work all night to get them out. Interviewer: Where were you living while you were working at the Pentagon? Gig Smith: We lived at Fort Myer. (19:00) We walked every day in a tunnel under the highway to the Pentagon. We were not very well liked, because they made special barracks for us. They were cinder block, and we had these dryers that you’d pull out. We had everything. We lived 4 to a cubicle and not in the barracks like the other girls did. Everybody in the barracks that we lived in knew that you had to be quiet because there were people there, you know when you worked all night you had to sleep all day or part of it, so they did not like us. Also, we were exempt from doing KP duty, and they did not like us at all. Interviewer: When you say they, who are you referring to? Gig Smith: The other soldiers. Interviewer: Were they male soldiers or were they women? Gig Smith: (20:00) Women, strictly women. Interviewer: So there were a lot of other WACs basically on the base, but only certain of you had the special assignment over at the Pentagon. Gig Smith: Yes. Interviewer: The women you were working with, what kind of backgrounds did they have? Gig Smith: Practically all of them had college educations but me. And that’s why I don’t know how I got there. Interviewer: When you were working with the maps, were there situations where your abilities as an artist were helpful to you somehow? Gig Smith: Yes, in plotting them, and things like that. Interviewer: That may well have a lot to do with it. They look for specialized skills and you had some. While you were working there, did you meet any �high-ranking people or any important ones? Did they come through and check up on you? Gig Smith: (21:00) At the Pentagon? I’ll tell you a funny story. I’ve told it so many times, you’ll probably see it in other places. I had a friend that worked in General Marshall’s office. And she said – everything was military and sort of sterile – in her office, she had a cute little waiting room there with a sofa and a lamp and a chair and all kinds of little feminine touches. She said, why don’t you come to see my office some time, if you want to see something that’s not military? And I said, okay, when I have the chance I’ll go. So one day I went around there and all of a sudden – well, she was leaning up against a… I don’t know… I was sitting on the sofa facing a door – this loud buzzer went off and she jumped to attention at that door and I didn’t know what was going on. (22:00) All of a sudden, I knew that was the secretary of war, Henry Stimson, and I could not move, because you’re supposed to stand at attention when any officer comes into the room. I could not move, so Stimson was a very small man, and he had a colonel that looked like he would hit the ceiling… and I still couldn’t move. So, Mr. Stimson said How do you do? as he passed. I know I said how do you do. But as they went around the door, the big tall colonel came back in, and I knew he was after me. I jumped to attention. (23:00) He said, “Sergeant, don’t you know that when the Secretary of War is in the room, you’re supposed to stand at attention?” “Yes sir, but I didn’t know he was behind that door.” She should have told me, she was very embarrassed about it because she could have warned me. But that was an experience I’ll never get over. It’s funny now, but it wasn’t funny then. He said just see that it doesn’t happen again. And I thought to myself, man, you’re not ever going to get into this office ever again. He had gone in to see General Marshall and I didn't know anybody was in there, she didn't warn me. Interviewer: While you were living at Fort Myer and were working at the Pentagon, did you get a chance to go into Washington itself? (24:00) Gig Smith: We went in every once in a while, but we didn’t go regularly. Interviewer: Did you have any spare time, and if you did, how did you spend it? Gig Smith: Sports: basketball, softball. I played on a team down in Oglethorpe that went to a state tournament. I had two bases loaded and a home run. Interviewer: Two grand slams Gig Smith: Yeah, grand slam, I tried to think of it. �Interviewer: I guess, when we look ahead to the Women’s baseball league, they didn’t hit necessarily a lot of home runs. Gig Smith: Well, the last three years of my playing Richmond, I had an average of hitting a home run a game. Interviewer: Was it easier to hit home runs in softball than it was going to be in baseball? (25:00) Gig Smith: Well, I didn’t get far enough into baseball to know the difference. Interviewer: Let’s go back to Washington. Did the Pentagon have women’s teams that you could play on? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: And who would they play against? Gig Smith: The other forts, or… I’m not thinking. Interviewer: The other bases and other units? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: Did you travel around to play those games? Gig Smith: Occasionally but it was all in the Washington area Interviewer: When working at the pentagon, there’s going to be men working along with women. (26:00) Gig Smith: Right Interviewer: What kind of relationship was there in the offices? How did the men treat the women? Gig Smith: I was with officers and people that were skilled, so they were a little bit different. We were treated with respect. Interviewer: Were there situations outside of the office or off of the base where people treated women in the army with a little less respect? Gig Smith: I think so. I have no idea what it’s like today… I don’t know, I can’t compare the two. �Interviewer: Were there ways that you could recognize that people were a little uncomfortable with you? Gig Smith: Yes, well, that’s human nature. (27:00) Interviewer: Now when you went off the base, would you stay in uniform? Gig Smith: Yes, always. Interviewer: I guess in Washington there’d be a lot of women in uniform. Gig Smith: Oh yeah. It would be so overcrowded. Where the mall is now, they had barracks. It was a real busy place in those days. Interviewer: Now, are there particular events or things that happened while you were working in Washington that stand out in your memory? Gig Smith: Well, I remember when Roosevelt died. We were shocked, I was getting to go home for the weekend – because Richmond was so close – and then I remember when Drew Pearson of the Washington Post broke it, that we had broken the Jap code, the office went berserk. (28:00) Because he should have been hung. He should have really been… but they never did any thing to him. Interviewer: When did that happen? Was that late in the war? Gig Smith: It was towards the end of the war, but you could have still used the Japanese code today if he had not put it in the post. He must have paid someone a pretty penny to get hat information, or somebody must have been drunk. Interviewer: Then, do you remember when the atomic bomb got announced? Gig Smith: I don’t remember the particulars. Interviewer: Of course, then there’s the announcement that the war itself is over and the Japanese surrender. Gig Smith: (29:00) I never had headaches, but they wanted some of us to go to Japan with the occupational forces. And I wanted to go very much, but I also wanted to go to college. So I kept the headache for a week trying to decide which I wanted to do most. And as soon as I decided that maybe I would feel too old when I got back, the headache went away. Interviewer: So you decided that you were not going to go then �Gig Smith: No, I decided to go to college, going to art school Interviewer: Is that the first thing you did after you left the army? Gig Smith: I went straight to New York. Interviewer: What school did you attend there? Gig Smith: I went to Pratt until… I was trying to live on 79 dollars a month, and it was pretty rough, so I called the scout that had offered me the contract that I had turned down to go into the service, to see if I could still get that contract. (30:00) And that weekend, they had me flying from New York to Chicago to meet the president of the company of the association. Interviewer: The president of the association, Mr. Wrigley himself? Gig Smith: No, it was… oh dear, I know it as well as I do my name. I don’t remember. Interviewer: He was the president of the league? Gig Smith: No, I didn’t meet Mr. Wrigley, he was president of the league. Interviewer: When did you first get approached about playing professional baseball? Gig Smith: Before I went into the army, and I said no, I’m going into the service. (31:00) Because everybody was doing something – it was a different war – everybody was collecting things, scrap metal, everybody was doing something, and I wanted to go in too. Interviewer: Now, the league itself doesn’t get started until the war is going along-Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: --pretty well. If you’re joining the army in 1942, did maybe did the league contact you not long after you joined? Gig Smith: No, they contacted me before I went in, and I turned that down. Then, after I got out and needed the money – at least in the summertime -- that’s when I joined. But then my mother became ill and my father wrote me a very sweet letter, asking me to consider if I would come home to help him. (32:00) So I had to transfer from Pratt to what’s now DCU, And I had to stop playing softball, too, and baseball. �Interviewer: Let’s see, go back then to your baseball story. You go out to Chicago, did they try you out? What happened when you got to Chicago? Gig Smith: No, the scouts that they sent around, they knew what you were capable of and those things, and I was later, in the Fast Pitch Softball Hall of Fame in Virginia. I was one of the first people to go in. And we had a team from Virginia that went to the first national softball tournament. Interviewer: When was that? (33:00) Gig Smith: That was in Detroit, don’t ask me dates. I’m 87, please! (Laughter) Interviewer: Was that back when you were a high school player? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: So you were pretty well known then. Gig Smith: Yeah. Interviewer: So they thought, okay, we’re going to go get her. So what team then did they assign you to? Gig Smith: Kenosha. The bus was waiting for me, because I had been in school, and the bus was sitting on the side of the road waiting for me. They were going to one of the teams they were going to play. Interviewer: Do you remember what it was like to first meet the people on the team and join the team? Gig Smith: I don’t know, I was just happy to be there. I don’t know, I don’t remember. I met people easily. Interviewer: (34:00) So you made friends quickly then? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: Describe a little bit of what life was like in that first season. Gig Smith: Well, I was a rookie, so I was lucky to get in a game, but I got in a few. It was great, I thought it was great. Interviewer: Now, at the point when you joined, how much were they doing in terms of enforcing the rules for dress and conduct and all of those things? �Gig Smith: We had chaperones. We were supposed to look and act and conduct ourselves like ladies at all time, but play like men. So it was a pretty big chore for some of us. We could not drink, smoke in public. (35:00) We had to wear a dress or skirt at all times. And in those days, there were no nylon hose because everything was going to war, so it was pretty funny to look at those pictures now and see bobby socks in your shoes when you were in a dress. Interviewer: Do you remember any of the chaperones that you had? Gig Smith: They were wonderful; they were really great to us. But we played a lot of pranks. The movie was correct in some of the things that they said, like putting limburger cheese on the light, and when she came in – as the light got hot – when she came in the night, she went all over the place hunting for the smell. (36:00) Then we were passing around chocolates, and we gave an exlax to one of the chaperones Interviewer: Now none of this was your ideas was it? Gig Smith: Oh, no, you don’t think? I was so innocent. Interviewer: Were you older than a lot of the players on the team? Gig Smith: Oh yes, I was. Interviewer: But were they teaching things about how to play at their level? Gig Smith: Well, I was good enough to play at heir level, but the rules were different. You played off the base. They started us off with a smaller ball and to push the bases back a little bit, you know, until we could become accustomed to the length and the size of the ball (37:00) But I had a strange thing happen to me. There was a girl there the year before I got there that had the same name as I, and she played center field. I was always the third baseman. And when I went to spring training -- evidently Grand Rapids wanted a center fielder – they must have thought that I was that Helen Smith. I thought you were supposed to play where they asked you or wanted you play. So I played center field. Interviewer: That was your second season? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: So, you played in Kenosha for one year, then you played with Grand Rapids for one year. Gig Smith: No… yeah, yeah. �Interviewer: What years were those? 47-48? Gig Smith: 46-47, I think. Interviewer: So right after the war, essentially. (38:00) The war ends in late enough in 1945, the baseball season is pretty well done, so the next year you come to play Gig Smith: Yeah, because I was in New York going to art school. Interviewer: And then, between the baseball seasons, then, you went back home to Virginia and you went back to art school. Gig Smith: Yes, I transferred Interviewer: Did the team accommodate your school schedule, or did the season start late enough that you didn’t have to miss school or miss games. Gig Smith: No, I had to stop doing both, stop playing ball. Interviewer: In the year that you first joined the league, you would have missed the spring training that year, right? Gig Smith: Yeah Interviewer: You were coming in after that. Now the next year, the year that you joined Grand Rapids, did you go to spring training that year? Gig Smith: Yeah, we were in Florida, and then they flew us to Cuba to put on exhibition games. Interviewer: What was that like? (39:00) Gig Smith: Cuba. I was happy to be home. Just leave it as that. It was rough down there. Interviewer: People didn’t follow quite the same rules as they did where you came from? Gig Smith: Well, we were only there to put on an exhibition game. I got awfully tired of the Cubans following us around, singing. I was hungry for American music. Interviewer: Did you play against Cuban teams while you were down there? Or did you play American teams? �Gig Smith: I’ve forgotten, I don’t remember. We probably played our own girls, I'd imagine. Interviewer: Now the league did recruit some Cuban players. Did you have any Cubans on the teams that you played for? Gig Smith: No Interviewer: (40:00) Do you remember how long they had you in Cuba? Was it like a week or a couple weeks? Gig Smith: In Cuba? Just a week, couple of days, a week. Bacardi opened up their bar. That was the longest bar I’d ever seen in my life. We had one of our leading pitchers was not a drinker, and I wanted to go to Sloppy Joe’s – I’d always heard about Sloppy Joe’s and I really wanted to go – and we were going there after we ate. They took us by Bacardi’s. And this leading pitcher, who was not a drinker, and she was so out of it, that somebody had to take her back, and I volunteered. (41:00) And I never saw Sloppy Joe’s. Interviewer: So what was Sloppy Joe’s Gig Smith: That was where Ernest Hemingway used to hang out. Interviewer: You said this woman was drinking, where were the Chaperones while that was all happening? Gig Smith: Well, you can sneak something in a Coke, and not know it, You know? In fact, I had my first drink when I was in basic training down at Oglethorpe. And they knew I did not drink, and that was a funny situation. Where we left the Non-com club, there was a long row of steps, and I was just as happy as a lark, not knowing that I was tight. I went to go down the steps, and my arm got caught on the rail and I slid all the way down. I went into the barracks, and everybody was asleep, and I would go through knocking on the double bunks and I would say “I’m drunk, I’m drunk.” (42:00) And the next day, they caught me good, because they came through banging on pans. But that was kind of a mean trick to play; you don't know how people are going to react. That was my first drink. Probably my last one in the army, too. Interviewer: So in the time you were living in Washington, you kind of resisted whatever offers there were to go have a drink or do this or do that. �Gig Smith: Yeah, well, we were a specialist field, and we did not do much going out, Because the work that we did was so directly associated with the war, that we didn’t do a lot of that. Interviewer: And you had to be on call and all of that? (43:00) Gig Smith: Yeah. Interviewer: Let’s go back to the spring training thing. What was the spring training in Florida like? Was training in Florida different from Cuba? Gig Smith: Well, we put on exhibition games in Cuba. In spring training in Florida, we had a lot of drills and things like that, and played different teams. Interviewer: One of the hallmarks of the league was that you played in skirts – and relatively short skirts at that. Did you have problems with the base running and fielding and things? Gig Smith: People that slid, they had horrible strawberries. It was ridiculous. But he wanted us to look like women. Interviewer: Did you do a lot of sliding, or did you just hit home runs? (44:00) Gig Smith: No, well, I didn’t hit any home runs there. If I was lucky to get in. Interviewer: So you didn’t play a lot in that first season? Gig Smith: No, not a lot. We had a girl – we were playing in Chicago – we had one of the leading center fielders, Pat [Kagel], and she slid into second base, and came up screaming. Her bone was sticking through the sock. I got more of a chance to play then. Interviewer: Was that when you were with Grand Rapids? Gig Smith: Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Did you get to play any third base with either team? Gig Smith: No, they didn’t know I was a third baseman. I thought you played where they wanted you to play. I caught in the army, because nobody was stupid enough to get back there (45:00) Interviewer: Which position did you prefer to play? Gig Smith: Third base, definitely. �Interviewer: Do you remember much about Kenosha or about Grand Rapids, the communities you were playing in? What were the fans like in those places? Gig Smith: The fans were great by the time I got there. I think the people that preceded me had a rough time in the beginning. But when they found out the caliber of ball that was being played… and I was amazed, because we had some fantastic players. Interviewer: Who were some of the best players that you played alongside? Gig Smith: I think Kamencheck was probably the best one. She was a first baseman and left-hander. She could do anything. (46:00) Dottie Schroeder played longer than anybody, but she was not the best hitter. She caught an unbelievable ball that was hit a line drive over second base, and I don’t know how she got to it, but she was fantastic. But Kamencheck was a fantastic first baseman. She caught a ball that was hit so hard, she just whirled around, and she ended up backwards when she caught that ball. I don’t' know how she caught it either. Those were the two things that I recall. Interviewer: Now when you were playing, are there particular either plays that you made or hits that you got? Gig Smith: No, I remember I hit a ground ball to Sophie Kurys. I was running to first base, and the hat slid down over my eyes. I had a time with that. Interviewer: (47:00) Did you hit the base? Gig Smith: I don’t know. All I remember is the hat sliding down and I couldn’t see a thing. I was trying to push it up and run faster. Interviewer: If it hadn’t been for your family situation back at home, would you have stayed in the league a little bit longer? Gig Smith: Yes, definitely. I would have stayed in art school, too. I mean, I would have finished at Pratt. Interviewer: Then, after your second season playing ball, you come back home to Virginia. Did you complete your degree down there? Gig Smith: Yes, at VCU. Then I taught for 31 years. Interviewer: Where were you teaching? (48:00) �Gig Smith: I was teaching at Richmond Public Schools. I taught all grades, the last eight years, I taught emotionally disturbed – not retarded – emotional cases. I had some funny experiences there. Interviewer: Could you tell us one of those? Gig Smith: Yes, I can tell you one of them I can tell you a couple of them. We had one fella that did not like to – this was in the shop class, because I taught art in shop – and he was working on a wooden project. He just did not want to sand it properly, and he wanted to stain it or put some shellac to finish it. He came to me – they had to come to be before they could the next step – and I kept saying, because he was lazy and didn’t want to do it, and he came back to me and he said, and this as after the third or fourth time, he said “Mrs. Smith, I don’t care, I’m going to pay for it.” (49:00) And I said, “Let me tell you something, Jesse. I’m a teacher that takes pride in my teaching. If you walk out that door with a project, it’s going to be done right." About three weeks later, or maybe a month later, a new student came into that class. He was trying to pull the same trick that Jesse pulled. I didn't know Jesse was behind me, and I said, “nope, it's not right." I could hear his voice pop in, and he said, "Man, let me tell you something, Ms. Smith takes pride in her teaching, and you’re not going to go walking through that door with a project unless it’s done right.” I had to cover my nose, I was laughing. I didn’t know if I’d have gotten through to him at all. I liked those emotionally disturbed, maybe it was because I was. (50:00) Interviewer: I think that, even today, we still often find that classes like that, where they can get hands on and do their own things, often students can learn that way, if they’re not doing the conventional way. But you must have been a pretty good teacher to get that kind of response. Gig Smith: I think I had more empathy for what they were going through. I had one little girl that came in – I taught shop and art both – one little girl came into the class. Tears were running down her eyes. She said, "I've just got to talk to you, I've just got to talk to you." I said, well, let me get the class started and we'll walk out in the hall." And she said, "my father kept us up with a gun, drunk, all night.” So I think I did more good not necessarily by teaching them art and shop, but I think I did more good in other ways. (51:00) I think I was more successful with them, because they’d come to me before they’d go to a counselor. Interviewer: So they must have trusted you, or you were the person that they could talk to. Gig Smith: Yeah, they knew that. And I had a little boy who was so sissy, it was just pitiful. And they were kidding him all the time because he couldn’t throw �a ball, or couldn’t throw like the boys threw. So one day, I asked him to bring a softball up after school, the first thing I said, was “just throw me the ball.” And he stepped on the wrong foot first, you know. Throwing right… and I said, no, change. And we stayed there fifteen, twenty minutes, until he could throw a ball. (52:00) And they didn’t kid him any more. But they were the types of things that I think were more meaningful to those kids than whether they could be a good artist or not. Interviewer: During the time when you were working there, did anybody know that you had been a professional ball player? Gig Smith: No, I didn’t dare tell anybody. When the movie came out, a friend of mine knew that I had played, and she called up the newspaper and didn’t tell me. And he called me and he said, I’d like for you to go and critique the movie with me. And the next day, there was a full spread in the newspaper with pictures and everything. I thought, oh dear Father, it is finally out. (53:00) I hadn’t told anybody because softball was not looked upon like tennis and golf, and yet it takes more strength to do those two, than it does for sometimes to play right field and wait for a ball to come to you. Interviewer: What did you think of the movie? Gig Smith: I thought it was funny, and I thought it also touched the human element. I thought it was really good. It was really good, I liked it. Interviewer: Were there parts of it that you thought were a little inaccurate or Hollywood-ish? Gig Smith: Oh, of course. Tom Hanks urinating for ten minutes? We would have thrown him out. Interviewer: What sort of managers did you have during the two years that you played? Gig Smith: (54:00) I had excellent managers. I had Johnny Rawlins – played for New York – and we had good managers, we really did. We had nice chaperones, we did. We were really restricted din what we could do. Interviewer: What kind of living accommodations did you have while you played? Gig Smith: Usually, we lived in somebody’s home. Interviewer: How did that work? Gig Smith: Well, I’m not going to tell you the first night I got there, because the next day, I asked to have a new roommate. I was with Al Hallet, who was one �of the leading pitchers at the time, and it was real good. She and Ruth Lessing, we used to chum around together. Interviewer: The people who were your best friends in these teams, were they some of the ones were older players closer to your age, or were some of them younger. (55:00) Gig Smith: I never thought about age, you know? Interviewer: Let’s go back to life afterward again. The movie comes out, and so forth. At what point do you start getting involved with the organization? Gig Smith: I went to the first reunion in Chicago and I’ve been associated with them ever since. That movie has opened up more doors me than you could imagine. I’ve been to the White House twice, they wanted somebody who had been in the service and also played in the league. They sent me to Hawaii to make speeches at the army bases there for equal opportunities. (56:00) They had a really nice program once a year for that type of thing, and I was guest of honor then. I didn't see much of Hawaii but I saw the army bases. Interviewer: At the time you were playing, did you have any sense that you were sort of making history or were doing something important? Gig Smith: No, no. All I knew was that we were keeping baseball alive for Mr.. Wrigley, because President Roosevelt had called him and said I'm afraid we're going to have to fold the men's league association because we need every man that we can get. He asked one of his assistants if we would dream up something to keep baseball alive, and he came back in a couple of days, and said, “why don’t you start a women’s league, and treat hem exactly the way you treat the men’s league and take them to Florida for spring training and fly them to Cuba to put on exhibition games, and let them come back up the east coasts all the way to their home teams just like the men’s?" (57:00) And that was what happened. But there was nothing equal in pay. We had to be on those hot old air-conditioned busses. We had some great players. We had one girl who pitched two perfect games, and when she wasn't pitching, she played third base, was married to the coach, and had a three-year-old son. Interviewer: That was Jean Fout. Gig Smith: Yeah. Interviewer: To what extent where you aware of where the league had come from or why they were doing it? (58:00) �Gig Smith: We knew why they were doing it. I’ll tell you something else that was interesting. When I went to the Pentagon -- it wouldn’t happen today -every enlisted man that came into that unit that we were working in at the Pentagon, was given a direct commission. They didn’t have to go to OCS. For every woman that came in there, she was given the privilege of going to OCS if she cared to go. That wouldn’t happen today. And I did not want to go. I turned it down when I came out of basic training, I could have gone then. I turned this one down because I was told that if I went to OCS – I was told by the people in the office – if I went there would be no chance of getting back. (59:00) I was with marvelous people. I was with people I admired and I respected and I was doing a terrific job, a job that really dealt directly with the war. That’s where I wanted to be, I didn’t want to leave, so I didn’t go. Interviewer: If you had been a man coming in, you would have been commissioned automatically? Gig Smith: Yeah. Automatically. No questions about it. Interviewer: As you look back on the whole thing now, how do you see what the significance of the league was? Gig Smith: Well, it’s opened up doors – unbelievable doors – for all of us I think. As I said, I’ve been to places I never would have gone before. (1:00:00) Interviewer: When you meet women athletes from later generations and so forth, what’s that like? Gig Smith: Awesome. What has happened for women in sports… Billie Jean King was just given a presidential honor for her job in passing Title IX, and I know for a fact -- I think she was given either a month or two months -she was ready to throw in the towel because she had been working for a couple of years on that, and all of a sudden they passed that. Thank goodness they did. You can give her full credit for that because she really put her career on the line and used her own money to do it. She’s to be admired. (1:01:00) Interviewer: And she’s someone who, in turn, admires your group and all the things you do. Gig Smith: I think so, I think so. She’s going to be our guest of honor, so I’m sure she does. �Interviewer: At this point, is there any important part of your story we’ve left out? Is there anything else you’d like to add here into the record before we close things out? Gig Smith: I’m just happy for the life I’ve had. Many times I thought it wasn’t going to work out, but everything’s worked out according to whatever divine… Interviewer: In general, what do you think the importance of sports – baseball and softball – what did that mean to you? How did that help you in your life, or what did you learn from the experience of playing? Gig Smith: You should have given me time to think that one through! (Laughter) (1:02:00) It has opened up so many doors, unbelievable doors, for me. The experience has been wonderful, and it’s still wonderful. I just wish I had about 20 more years to live. Interviewer: Well, I can tell you that you do have a wonderful story and you’ve done a wonderful job of telling it to us. Gig Smith: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_HSmith Title A name given to the resource Smith, Helen "Gig" (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Helen Description An account of the resource Helen "Gig" Smith was born on January 5, 1922 in Richmond, Virginia. She began playing softball at the age of 13. She joined the Women's Army Corps after Pearl Harbor and later was attached on special assignment to the Pentagon to decrypt Japanese codes. In 1947, she joined the AAGPBL's Kenosha Comets and then in 1948 played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. During her time in the league she played the infield. In 1948, she left the league to pursue teaching art in Virginia. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a4751c1a6bd03092df6b6116e36f69ba.mp4 b6fb64df3d07912336e72f066051c0cc https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e12515709deec605b3a4764634835c83.pdf 7bb8d497ff99652569c43ebea599ff2d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Jason Smith (17:05) Overview of Service (00:30) • • • • • • • • • • Awards and various citations. (3:21) Operation Iraqi Freedom document and picture. (4:20) Promotion papers. (5:39) He had 2 close friends who died while serving in Iraq. One lived for 6 days in the field hospital, however due to the lack of proper medical care available in the field, he passed away. (6:29) Jason lived with his mom and his sister. His parents were divorced. He joined the military in a search to become a man. (8:53) He still has several mementos from his service. He uses them to remind himself not to take what he has for granted. (10:00) He interacted with the civilians often while serving n Iraq. He recalls seeing a man travel with a cart with car tires on it being pulled by a donkey. He also recalls children regularly begging for food. (11:27) After returning home from service he was angry for some time however he now tries to stay positive. (13:00) He believes that the service that the Army has done in Iraq was good for the people of Iraq. (13:30) Part of him wishes that a 2 year service in the military was mandatory. He believes the assistance and teaching of discipline the military provides is very useful. (15:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmithJ0986V Title A name given to the resource Smith, Jason (Interview outline), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Jason Description An account of the resource Jason Smith served in the U.S. Army during operation Iraqi Freedom in the early 2000s. He interacted often with civilians and believes that his service has lead him to appreciate what he has in his own life. He discusses losing close friends while serving. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dion, Sam (Interviewer), Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/922469bd979c484043ef9137350a490c.mp4 6156a49516f3a667803e166762c7471a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/415816136322dd182338fe7b6fdc92ca.pdf ead5fd3220373d916b4817aa2caecdbe PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Joe Smith Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Joe Smith of Annapolis, Maryland. And the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Alright, Joe, start us off on some background on yourself. And to begin with, what is your legal name? Veteran: My legal name is Joe. Not Joseph, Joe Oliver Smith. Interviewer: Alright, and where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born April 17th, 1946 in Topeka, Kansas. Interviewer: Alright. And now, did you stay there or did you move around? Veteran: No, I grew up as a service brat. I left Topeka when I was 1 month old. My father was in the—he began flying in the Army Air Corps in World War 2, based in England. He flew bomb runs over Germany. He came back you know and so where I start out in Topeka. On the way, I think we went through Fort Dix, New Jersey but we headed to post-war Germany. You know, so I am from about 1 year old to 3 years old in Wiesbaden, Germany. Interviewer: Okay. Did your father ever say much about what it was like to be based in Germany after having bombed it? Veteran: They talked—my parents talked a bit about…not so much the military aspect of the war but life in Germany. You know, living there. We had a German maid, we had a boxer pet for the �family. I remember hearing funny stories about making sure when they took the mare and the boxer for a walk that they didn’t let them out of their sight. It was a big deal, you know. Dogs on the loose would be grabbed pretty quickly. Interviewer: Okay. Grabbed pretty quickly for…lunch? Veteran: For who knows? Maybe for lunch. It’s hard to know, it was not good times there. (00:02:01) Interviewer: Okay, so what you’d still say, there’s still a lot of poverty there at that point before the economy recovers a little bit. So, you do that and then you basically, you kind of bounce around then to other Air Force bases? Veteran: Right. SAC wasn’t—didn’t exist when we came back. But we went from Germany to California. My sister was born in 1950 in California when we were at March Air Force Base. And then moved from there to Colorado Springs, Colorado. My father was an instructor there in the survival school for pilots. You know, if you crash in the Rockies, and that sort of thing. I started kindergarten there, I think in a year or so, and then we came back to Kansas. We were at Salina. At the time, it was Smoky Hill Air Force Base, subsequently it was renamed Schilling Air Force Base. We were there for 2 or 3 years I guess. Interviewer: Yeah, you’ve got 3 years here on your timeline. Yeah. Veteran: 3 years and from there we went to…Went to Westover Air Force Base, in western Massachusetts, out near Springfield. That should have been about the 4th through 6th grades. Interviewer: Yep. �Veteran: That was the beginning of the—well, actually, Salina was the beginning of the strategic air command, the SAC assignments. Interviewer: Okay. Now, is your father still a pilot or was he doing kind of the— Veteran: He was a pilot. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah, he was pretty much a career pilot there. So, the next several assignments were involved with SAC. Going up to Westover was also a SAC assignment. We were up there for 3 years. Interviewer: Okay, so that’s the one that’s in Massachusetts. And then now we’ve got you after that in Maine and Georgia. Veteran: A couple of quick little trips there he was supposed to go to school down at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama. Sort of midway through the move, it was canceled so my mother and 3 children, we headed down to Texas to her home and visited with cousins and stayed there for a couple of months when I started 7th grade. High school football in Texas was a big deal to play. I played high school football there. So, then we head on up. His next assignment sent him up to Brunswick Naval Air Station in Brunswick, Maine. He was going to be the liaison officer going into—they were going to put a squadron of tankers, refuel tankers there. So, we get up there. I do the 7th grade there in Maine. We lived in a little village up the road called Wiscasset. Great times for a 7th grader. And then they decided not to send the tankers in there. So, he was then reassigned to Robbins Air Force Base in just south of Macon, Georgia. Two more years and at that point, he retired. I finished the 8th grade there. (00:05:10) �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: 8th…9th grade. Interviewer: So, now what does he do after he gets out of the Air Force? Veteran: Well, he went to work for some—a friend of his that we knew who lived over in north Alabama. That’s TVA country, a lot of recreation on the, near the dam. Lake Guntersville, a bunch of lakes created by dams for the TVA. So, we moved to Guntersville. He went to work. Basically, he was a marine supply salesman. Traveled a bit on the road throughout the area. You know, selling the marine hardware and stuff. Interviewer: Okay. Now, is that where you finished high school? Veteran: I finished high school there, in 3 years, yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And, I don’t know, what was life like for you in those high school years? Veteran: It wasn’t bad. It was pretty good. I was valedictorian of my high school class. I was a jock, I played football and basketball. (00:06:12) Interviewer: And of course, you’ve come in from the outside. Did they accept you pretty quickly or…? Veteran: I was a pretty good football player, so I was readily accepted from the outside, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And so, when do you graduate? Veteran: Graduated in ’64. Interviewer: Okay. And then upon graduation, what do you do? �Veteran: At that point, I head up the road to VMI, Virginia Military Institute. My brother had gone to VMI. He was—actually, he was 3 years ahead of me so his last year was my first year up there. During the summers I had a couple of jobs over in Huntsville. You know, the space program at that point. Boeing was there. I got a summer internship at Boeing one of the summers. And then once I got to VMI, they had—we had an ROTC requirement. We could go to summer camp and I have forgotten which of the summers that was. I think I probably worked there in Garnersville one summer. Worked for the power company. Interviewer: Alright. So, when you went to VMI, were you looking to have a career in the military or was this just a way, a place to go to college that kind of fit your background? Veteran: It—it was, you know, the career aspect was on my mind. You know, I come from a military family. My brother, he’s headed off on a military career and I didn’t know anything else. It’s not like, you know, I grew up with a dad who was a corporate guy and…or retail or whatever else is out there in the world. That was—the military was sort of the direction. And I found at VMI among my classmates…we had the Richmond bunch, the Tidewater bunch, these guys— you know, they’re 4th and 5th generation VMI. They knew they were going to VMI because it was a family thing. But you know, some said “I am going to do the military approach” and then some said “this is just going to college for me.” (00:08:23) Interviewer: Right. Okay, now describe a little bit what the curriculum was like at VMI. I mean, to what extent was it regular college and to what extent did you really feel like you were in a military academy? Veteran: Well, it’s kind of a good combination of both. In terms of the academics, it was very much a regular academic college. You know we had…I think we had 11 or 12 majors, we have �more now. I mean, they have really cranked up the academics there. But you know, we had major in civil engineering, we had mechanical engineering, we had electrical engineering, we had biology for the—to turn out a bunch of doctors through there. English, history, chemistry. So—physics, mathematics. So, people were getting their education. Interviewer: Now, about how large was your class, do you think? How many students were there? Veteran: Well, there was some attrition the first year. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: There always is from the military. So, they were rattling, we called it. I think we started with about 375. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We graduated 275. Interviewer: Alright, now is the attrition from the academics or from people who get turned off by the military bit? Veteran: They got turned off. You know, if they make it through their rat year, their first year, then they are probably well on their way. I mean some people leave. I had one of my roommates, my 3rd class year which is the sophomores. You were at 1st class, 2nd class, 3rd class. One of my roommates left to go join the Army. He couldn’t wait to get to Vietnam. That was—he left to do that. And I remember another—actually, it was one of our class officers who left another year later. I mean, we are 2nds at this point. And he went off, joined the Army and go to Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay. (00:10:41) �Veteran: There were, there were a few of those but the— Interviewer: Explain the rat year thing a little bit. What was that? Veteran: The rat year was kind of life in the barracks as a rat. You know, you’re sort of at the bottom. It is drilled into you that you’re at the bottom and you need to shape up and learn and develop some character. And so, inside the barracks was the worst place. I mean once you are out. And we had two joined quads. So, you come in through a couple of the arches and it’s very much like this hotel. You had the interior stoops that you come out of your rooms, you have windows on the outside wall. You come out of your rooms onto—because it was a 10-foot wide stoop, we called it the balconies. And when you came out of your room, you were bracing. Your shoulders are back, your chin is as far back as you can get it pulled in, and you were marching straight out of your room out to the guard rails, the hand rails at the edge of the stoop. You take a right or a left, and you are marching down there with your chin tucked in and you just hope that you can get out of the barracks without being stopped by an upperclassmen who thinks you’re not really bracing hard enough and works on you. He asks you questions about your—we had a little thing called the rat bible. It had a lot of facts that you had to know. So, you get stopped there on the stoop and you get quizzed on the rat bible. Or you get quizzed on what’s the menu today at lunch in the mess hall. (00:12:24) Interviewer: Now, what happens if you do not answer in a satisfactory manner? Veteran: You might drop for push-ups. Happens a lot. As long as you’re not—I mean, if you’re just not knowing the answers, you just get yelled at and braced more. Some other infractions, you got sent before the rat disciplinary committee, which is an after taps party up on the 5th stoop where you get a sweat party and a lot more physical activity up there. That was another thing, if �you came out and your uniform wasn’t perfectly done, if you had a button unbuttoned or were— whatever, they would send you up. They would write you up and you would get a notice of when you would appear before the RDC to answer those allegations. Interviewer: Okay. And of course, this is now going on in the mid-1960s. Now I gather probably the people inclined to the counter-culture did not go to VMI. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: But there is still some sense of rebellion in the air or whatever. So, there might be people who don’t take to this well? Veteran: Oh, there were. And those were people who didn’t finish their first year. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know, they said “I didn’t understand what this was all about. It’s not for me.” Interviewer: Okay. Now, did VMI have black students at this point? Veteran: We did not. In fact, we had—we added the first black students the year after I graduated. We now have women also. The women—we fought that. You know, this long tradition of the male school and you know, we argue that the Mary Baldwin College had an institute, a leadership institute that provided the same opportunity. We fought for a long time. That case—and we were sued. And that case went to the Supreme Court. And we lost. And I was talking with someone yesterday about the difference, let’s say, between VMI’s approach to it and the Citadel. The Citadel later admitted women, but it was a hard time for them and it was—it could have been done better. But at VMI, when we lost that case, we said “Okay, we are in.” and I explained to the guy yesterday, one of the things that VMI did was they arranged with Texas A �and M, who also has a corps and they have women in their corps. We arranged for some of the upperclass women to come to VMI and attend so you’ve got some mentoring and some upperclass women to sort of ease this along. (00:15:33) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And, so as I said, you know we fought it, we lost, and we moved on. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and in the meantime, you are now on schedule to go graduate in 1968. Now you are getting into kind of the peak of the Vietnam war. So, next question is sort of, between ’65 and ’68 as Vietnam is ramping up, how much attention are you paying to that at VMI? Veteran: We are aware of it. And you know, the thoughts are that yeah, probably most of us will wind up in it. Maybe not most but certainly we are not going to avoid that. You know, people are going to go different directions. You know, some of my classmates spent—took a reserve commission, spent time in Germany. So, you have some schooling. A lot of people get their basic officer training and various things. And then you go. So, not everyone went. And some people weren’t excited about going, and they were able to pick another place. (00:16:43) Interviewer: Okay. Now, if you are going to VMI, is it—do you have an obligation to enter the service, either as a reserve or regular officer or is that really up to you? Veteran: No. you…Well, times have changed, but when we were there, to get into VMI you had to be physically able to accept a commission and that you would. If you entered VMI, you know, 2 years later you had an accident that disabled you and you could not, no problem. But generally, everyone else was going to commission. And we had Army, we had the Air Force, we had the �Marine Corps option through the Navy. We didn’t have Navy but the PLC, the Platoon Leader Course, was available. So, there was 3 branches you could have. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so you’re basically all heading there. Now, you graduate then in ’68. Do you receive your commission upon graduation, or how does that work? Veteran: We did. We were commissioned there. And we had a general officer from the Army, we had people from the 3 branches. And those people would hand you your commission as you came across the stage. Interviewer: Okay. Now, once you get that commission, what happens to you next? (00:18:11) Veteran: Well you could take—you could take maybe up to 30 days before you went. You know I took—took a couple weeks, I think, went home. And then there were a handful of us who got our initial orders and I didn’t think anything about it but in talking with someone yesterday they said “They sent you straight to your unit? They didn’t send you to school first?” I said “No.” We—there were about 6 of us who went directly to the 82nd airborne division down in Fort Bragg. Interviewer: Okay. Now, where did you place in your class? Veteran: Well, there were a couple things. Academically, there were 35 civil engineers. I was 10th. In the military structure, I was the first captain, the regimental commander of the corps of cadets. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and then when you receive your commission, did some people get regular commissions and some reserve commissions? �Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay, and which— Veteran: Yes, and I was offered a regular Army commission. That’s a 5-year commitment, 5years active duty. You could take a reserve commission and that’s I guess 2 or 3 years. And then I mean everyone would have a reserve commitment beyond but. So, I took it. I am thinking yeah, this is going to—we’re going to take a look. And so, I took the RA commission and… Interviewer: Okay, you take the commission and now you are sent straight to Fort Bragg to join the 82nd airborne division. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Alright. Now, do you have any idea why that happened that way? Veteran: I am not sure. I am talking to Bob, you know yesterday. Because—he might have been the one who said “You got sent straight down to the 82nd as a leg?” If you know what I am talking about. You know, you show up at an airborne division and you’re not jump qualified then you’re a leg. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, alright. Veteran: You’re disrespected. (00:20:14) Interviewer: Alright, now did you, once you get there, did you do jump school or— basically, take me through what happens. You show up at Fort Bragg. What do they do with you? Veteran: We are up at Fort Bragg. I was assigned as a platoon leader and then the 307th engineer battalion was 82nd’s battalion. The line companies—in addition to the line company, they had a �little light equipment platoon, no, company I am sorry, company. The 618th light equipment company. I was assigned as a platoon leader to that company. It had more equipment than the line companies did so it was sort of the equipment support. I know at one point we had a field exercise there which was—it was kind of a high light. We went out and then we had a 24-hour period to construct a 3000-foot airstrip out in the west end of the big 40,000 acre area for the FDA. So, in my platoon, we had road graders, we had dozers. And we’re out there pushing the clay around and constructing this airstrip. And a culmination of the exercise, they fly a 130 in there and landed on the airstrip. Interviewer: Okay, so a C-130, a big transport aircraft? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. So, this is a light equipment company. What does a heavy equipment company have? Veteran: Well, you know, they had—the heavy equipment has got big dozers. We had the little toy dozers. Although, we had regular size motor graders. Interviewer: Yeah, the graders were there. Yeah, okay. Veteran: You know they say, you know, the light equipment can be air dropped. Well, they all can be air dropped once. But supposedly our light equipment could survive the drop and go on to bigger things. (00:22:13) Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Veteran: So, I got there. Fortunately, most of us got sent to jump school very quickly so we get down to Benning and had our 3-weeks training and come back, jump qualified. �Interviewer: Okay. And so, what does that training actually consist of? You go to Fort Benning, Georgia for 3-weeks, what do they do with you? Veteran: You have some—you start to learn how to land and how to don’t come in stiff legged, you’re going to break your legs. But you know, how you flex. And then we would practice by jumping off a 3-foot platform and then we would tuck and roll, like we are landing. And then we would go—and so, there is you know, a few days of that. And there’s always the physical training, you go out and do some runs. And then you move on to the 30-foot, 4-foot towers. So, you go up in the 34-foot tower. And they hook you up to a chute but basically, you’re—now you’re jumping from 34-feet and it’s going to be a quick hit. But again, now you’re practicing the same techniques from a 34-foot jump. Maybe we weren’t hooked up to a chute, maybe we were hooked up to, I don’t remember, bungee cords. Interviewer: You had some kind of—but there was something that is starting to break your fall before you hit the ground? Veteran: Right. I mean, you’re not going down any faster than a chute would normally get you down. So, we are doing the 34-foot towers. And then the last week was you went out and make 5 jumps. Interviewer: Okay. And do you remember your first jump? Veteran: No. No. Interviewer: Okay. They just kind of run together? (00:24:02) Veteran: They run together. Interviewer: Okay. Did you enjoy doing it? �Veteran: I did. You know, we were—here we got a bunch of us, we all come down from VMI, we are gung-ho second lieutenants and we wanted to be there and so we had…Bob was impressed. He said “How many jumps did you make?” I said, “I made about—in 18-months I was there, I made about 55 jumps.” You know, you had to jump once a month for pay purposes, to remain qualified. But you could find jumps on the weekends, you can go out strapping with you know a plane because there are people that needed those jumps. Especially toward the end of the month, they got to go get their jump in so you could find jumps. And we liked doing that. Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so you get through that and then you’re…Now, do you have schools that you go through at Fort Bragg? I mean once your things—you didn’t go to school immediately, but once you are there… Veteran: So, jump school is at Benning. The next thing that came for me at one, literally there were 3 of us, I guess 3 engineer officers there in the battalion. We went up to Fort Belvoir because that’s where the engineer officer basic course was. So, we were up there for, I don’t know, 6 weeks or so. Went through that. Interviewer: Okay, and what does that actually consist of? Veteran: Well, that’s some leadership skills, that’s some…I don’t remember a lot of it, but you know, more oriented toward the engineer function in the units. Interviewer: Okay, so what do Army engineers actually do in…? (00:26:01) Veteran: Well, you got the combat engineers and they’re, you know, mostly the trip units. I mean you go to the 82nd, it’s not like going to the Savannah Corps of Engineers district, where you are in civilian works. �Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So we’re—this is pretty much focused on the combat unit, trip units. Interviewer: Right. But they’re assuming that you know most of your basic engineering at this point? Veteran: No, I don’t think they do actually. Because I ran into a lot of people who didn’t have, I mean it’s not, the fact that I got a degree in civil engineering. You know, I ran into guys who…Well, you had the OCS guys and they can come from any kind of background. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, it was…You know, I talk about the Army manuals, the field manuals that, you know, go look in the manual. You’re going to build some temporary bunkers over there, which we did a lot of. They got manuals and they kind of walk you through where you can find the resources. And then we had some specific classes on that. But it was broad. I think all of the officer basic courses are broad. Interviewer: Okay, because they have to get you ready for wherever they might send you or whatever you might do. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So now you do that, now you can…But you don’t really stop there, you go on for further training. Veteran: No we, you know—we are sort of back and forth to the division. You know, show up, go to jump school, come back, go to Belvoir for the basic. And that was sort of September/October timeframe. And then I went to ranger school back in Fort Benning in—I was �what was called a winter ranger. We started in the middle of January and it was an 8-week school. Interviewer: Okay, did they do all of it at Fort Benning or did they take you different places? (00:28:06) Veteran: We went—there were 3 phases. You had the initial phase there at Benning, which was a lot of physical training and some classroom instruction. Then the mountain phase, we went up to Dahlonega, Georgia. And this is, this is around the 1st of February. Snow on the ground, cold. Interviewer: You’re in the mountains of north Georgia, right? Veteran: We were in the mountains of north Georgia, doing our mountain activities, if you will. And then, sort of late February, we went down to Eglin Air Force Base for the swamp training. Interviewer: Okay, and that’s in Florida? Veteran: That is in Florida, yep. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so you get all of this. Now, what kinds of people were there? Were they all mostly young lieutenants or were there more higher-grade officers? Veteran: The—mostly they were certainly company grade. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I don’t think we saw any majors and above. I can’t remember. There must have been some NCOs, they would do that as well. But yeah, a lot of—all the west borders, all the VMI guys and—all the VMI guys that want to go. So, yeah. Interviewer: So, what motivated you to do that? I mean… �Veteran: Oh, it was all the same. I mean, you know, we are in this. Let’s not skimp on this, let’s not skip something that you know is going to make us better prepared. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, so you do that, and then you come back to your unit again in Fort Bragg. Veteran: Back to Bragg. I had one more school. I went to the jump master school. So that’s you know, most people making the jumps you know they line up, you’re in the plane, they line up. Everybody hooks up. The jump master is the guy directing traffic. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: You know, he is giving the instructions. He’s running everybody out and then out he goes. So, several of us went to jump master. That was a—just a brief, maybe a couple weeks I think. And that was there at Fort Bragg. So, then we were—so back in the division. And then I, well, most of us got—we went to first lieutenant, beginning of June. (00:30:26) Interviewer: Right. So, you’re basically, you’ve had your commission for a year and done well and so you get the promotion. Veteran: Yeah. That was at that point, you know, they were pretty much cranking them along. Interviewer: Okay, so we have gotten you to basically the middle of 1969. You got your commission, now you’re a first lieutenant. And what do you do at this point? Veteran: Well, at this point, I had the opportunity to interview for a job as an aide to one of the assistant division commanders who was just coming in. General Sam Walker, he went to VMI for a year and then he went to West Point, and that’s okay. But I interviewed and I got the job so now I become the aide to General Walker. He—there were 3, the CG, the commanding general, �was John Dean, major general. The two divisions, assistant division commanders, John Hennessy was the ADC for operations and Sam Walker came in to be the ADC for support. So, I spend the next—well, we get started. So, I am his aide. You know, following him around doing stuff. And that was kind of routine, you would see what these general officers did because they huddled a lot. So, I pretty well knew all 3 of them. And then my classmates started heading across to Vietnam. And, you know, I started seeing you can’t wait too late. You need to be in there at the platoon level, when they get over there. You need that. (00:32:28) Interviewer: Okay, so why do you need that? Veteran: The experience. You know, most of us feel, you know as you go up, it’s important that you understand the jobs. And so if you have never been a platoon leader, you maybe don’t appreciate things that occur at the platoon level and don’t know what your subordinate officers are dealing with. Interviewer: Now, for career purposes, is it important at this point that you get to Vietnam and lead a platoon in Vietnam if you’re going to move up or whatever? Veteran: Yeah, I think, you know if you go in the Army in the middle of ’68 and 5, 6 years later you have—you didn’t mark that off on your ticket? You know. So, yeah I think the people—you know, the good classmate of mine who went to Germany, he was a basketball player. He was there on scholarship at VMI and he had an obligation but going to Vietnam was really not high on his list. But the others who were inclined to make the military a career? Certainly, they want to get over there. Interviewer: Okay, so if you had wanted to, could you just have stayed at Fort Bragg indefinitely or gone on to Germany or something? �Veteran: I could have stayed longer as General Walker’s aide. I mean, I went to him and I said “Sir, you know, I need to get over there.” And I had been his aide at that point for, it was about 6 months, so. He said “Fine do you have any particular interests?” I said, “Well, I know that General Hennessy is—had just gone over.” So, General Hennessy left from the 82nd, went to the 101st. And I said, “I’d like to get to the 101st, and I would actually like to have an infantry platoon.” And he smiled. And so, you know, within a month I was—in December, I headed over to Vietnam. And so, I had my orders read: you’re going to the 101st. (00:34:53) Interviewer: Okay, so did you have those orders before you left? Or did you get those once you got to Vietnam? Veteran: I can’t remember. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: You know, most guys…You show up there at Vietnam and then you’re waiting around, you find out where you’re going. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, I knew, and I can’t remember if I knew before or not. But I knew that that was going to happen. Interviewer: Right. Now, what’s the process for getting you to Vietnam? Physically, how do you get there? Veteran: Oh, physically. I flew out of Oakland. That—well, I was at the time, well I was at Fort Bragg. So, I was on the east coast. I mean, you pack up and then you fly out to California and �you get on a—and we are flying commercial. So, I believe going over, I can’t remember. I think I went through Hawaii going over. Interviewer: Yeah, that’s common. Veteran: Yeah, there were two routes. You go through Hawaii or you go up through Alaska and down. So, we fly on in and we land at Tan Son Nhut. Everybody was looking out the windows, trying to figure out what to expect. And I am thinking, “Well, we don’t have weapons. Should we be worried about that?” You know, we are going to get off the plane at the tarmac there and should we be worried about that? What is next? So, we just load on buses and off we go. And then we go to the replacement center. You know, I can’t remember, we hang around a day or two or whatever. And I don’t remember how I got up to the 101st, up to Camp Eagle. (00:36:44) Interviewer: Alright, so Tan Son is the big airfield outside of Saigon. So, you’re down in the southern part of South Vietnam at that point. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: And the 101st airborne— Veteran: We were up at, it was up at I Corps. You know, the country was divided into 4 military zones, were what we called them. We just referred I Corps, the roman numeral, I Corps from the DMZ coming down and II Corps, III Corps, and IV Corps. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, 101st and the Marines were up in I Corps. Interviewer: Right. Okay, so when do you actually arrive in Vietnam? Veteran: It was in December, I guess middle of December. �Interviewer: So, December of ’69? Veteran: Right, yes. Interviewer: Alright, now by that time, the 101st had had a pretty ugly engagement with a place called Hamburger Hill about 6 month or so earlier. Had you followed that story at the time, while it was going on? Or were you just doing other stuff? Veteran: I was doing other stuff. You know we maybe heard…Well, you didn’t hear a lot. And they didn’t really want anybody to hear anything about Hamburger Hill. Interviewer: Alright, but that had happened already. Okay. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: And…Now, I guess, when you got off the plane, did you notice the physical conditions? Or was there weather or anything like that? What happened at Tan Son when you first got there? (00:38:13) Veteran: I believe the weather—the weather was not too bad. You know, the monsoon…Vietnam sort of gets, it’s long enough that they experience. In the north they have a different season than in the south. In the north, we had the monsoons from about November through beginning of March. Cold and rainy. If you were down south, you would have the opposites. You had summer. You’re hot and rainy in the south. So, I am assuming that it being December, Tan Son was probably not bad. Warm. Interviewer: Yeah. Some people comment on the heat or on the smell or things like that when they get off the plane. But that doesn’t register with everyone, son that’s just why I �asked. Okay, so then they get you up and normally they will fly you up to Da Nang or Fu Bai or some place. You get in a truck and go where you’re going. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay, so when you got up to the 101st, what specific unit did you join? Veteran: When I got to the 101st, General Hennessy met me. And I spent about 10 days with him and his aide. Went everywhere he went. And so, he gave me a broad picture of what was going on. I remember we flew out to the hospital ship Hope. You know, toured around while he’s putting medals on people who are—they were on the ship. Went to fire bases with him. I do remember that there, around Christmastime, there was a USO show. And I was able to go to that. So, I am—I got a cush job here for 10 days, just going around with him. And then off I go to the—I went to Delta company, 2 506th infantry, the 3rd brigade. Interviewer: Okay so 2nd battalion, yeah. Veteran: Yeah, 2nd battalion 506th infantry. And they were based in Evans, Camp Evans, which was also where B company of 326th engineers was based because B company supported the brigade. (00:40:25) Interviewer: Alright. And so now, once you arrive there at Camp Evans, you have your orders. What happens to you? What do you do? Veteran: I meet my company commander. I meet my platoon. And we were in base camp. Within just a few days, we were going out on our first mission. Mostly what we were doing was you’re out in the field, you’re humping the boonies, you’re looking for trouble. And so, we were—a couple incidents. One thing that happened on the helipad. You were going to fly out of �the LZ, the helipad there at Evans. And I had a staff sergeant, Jerry Pounds, that’s one guy I remember. He was my platoon sergeant. We are up on the helipad, everybody is packing their rucks and you know checking equipment. Sergeant Pounds came over with a case of C rations. And he starts popping the C rations open. And he said, “Here sir, take what you want. Get the meals out to the troops.” And I looked at him. I said, “What?” He said, “Well, take what you want and I’ll get—” I said, “No, no, no, that’s not how it goes. You take the meals and get them to the troops, and whatever is left bring back to me.” He said, “Wow, that’s a change.” And at that point I thought what did—who have I replaced here? I was shocked. I was shocked. So anyway, we continue on our way. We get packed up and off we go. And the platoon was inserted somewhere out in the jungle. (00:42:32) Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you just going out in a platoon sized operation at that point? Was it just you by yourselves? Veteran: Well, the company was going but we would be moving independently, the platoon would move. Interviewer: Alright, but how many men were in your platoon do you think when you joined it? Veteran: About 23, 24. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: A little under staffed but most of them were… Interviewer: Okay. And did anything happen on these early patrols? Did you find any enemy? �Veteran: Very rarely. We had some contact. We probably had a couple of contacts you know, where we actually exchanged fire. But it was just very momentary. They were not looking—they were not sticking around. You know, we ran into them and they were not looking for a fight. So, we’re exchanging some fire as they were heading out. So, you know, we did this…I think we were out a week and then we got resupplied and so it was—you know, brief periods but this was during the monsoon you know, so we set up night ambushes, we got a night defensive position, and we’d set the ambushes. We’d set out our claim wars around the NDP and I remember, you know, you’re trying to get a little sleep under a poncho and you’ve taken your poncho and taken sticks to try and hold it off the ground about 18 inches so you can get under and maybe stay a little dry but…So, that kind of stuff. (00:44:08) Interviewer: Okay. Now, to what extent did you try to assert your authority and to what extent did you try to learn from the guys around you when you first got there? What approach did you take to leadership I guess when you joined them? Veteran: Well, I think when Sergeant Pounds went and gave the guys their C rats, I think he must have said something to them, that things are different here. I didn’t feel any need to sort of exert my authority like the guy who knew everything. I mean, I had just come into the country, but I knew the mission. And we had been out for 3 or 4 days and Sergeant Pounds came to me with another little ditty. He said—he walked over, he said “Well sir, I got to hand it to you: you know how to read a map too.” And I thought, “What?” So, you know at that point I thought—I didn’t have any problem. I did make…It maybe wasn’t the first week, I said “Sergeant Pounds, the men need to shave.” He said, “Really?” I said, “Yeah, I want them shaving their faces.” I said, “Don’t get me wrong, it’s not—I don’t care whether they—I dint care about their whiskers. But if they �shave their faces, I know they’re washing their faces.” And that was what was important for me. So. Interviewer: So, you were concerned about infections or…? Veteran: Yeah, this was just hygiene you know? I mean, I’ve gone times where when we go out for a week, you don’t take a shower you know, and so you kind of neglect your personal hygiene and I said at least I want them washing their faces and shaving. And they did. (00:46:09) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It wasn’t a big deal at that point. Interviewer: But basically, what you would do is you would have your orders or whatever and you would probably talk to Sergeant Pounds or the squad leaders and then you went and did it? Veteran: Right. I mean really, we got 23 guys and we’re just carefully moving through, looking for contact and seeing what we see. And we’ve got—we’ve got a map, but we are keeping in touch with Captain Wallgood you know, and he’s got orders of where the company needs to be and how he’s covering the area with his platoons. You know, so we know where we are and we know what we are working and that changes as we go along. Interviewer: Okay. Now how long did you spend as a platoon leader? Veteran: It was about 3 months. It was January, February, March. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: Oh, one other thing that we did in January was called an artillery raid. And that’s where it’s planned and the raid is simply a one day in and out. We had in January, the company had an �artillery raid up to fire base Shepherd, which was up—it was an old Marine fire base. It was not used. I mean, it had been abandoned. So, we got an abandoned fire base and we planned the artillery raid. The company goes in as perimeter security. They fly in a battery of 105 Howitzers. They have already pre-planned their fires. They have targets in that area that they’re planning to fire on. So then we pop in there, they fire for the day, and then we pull out. And it was pretty quiet. You know, you like to think these are surprise raids, that’s why it’s called a raid. We had little or no activity until we were leaving and I remember as the chopper I was on sort of hopped off the hill and started gaining momentum, we started taking fire from the ground. You know, from down the side of the hill. (00:48:27) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now are there other particular incidents that stand out in your memory from your time as a platoon leader, before we move on? Veteran: Not really. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, what brought your time as a platoon leader to an end? Veteran: Well, at that point I said this has been interesting. I had hoped for—I had wanted more contact. And people say, “You did?” I say, “Yeah, I did.” You know, I had wanted to make this a meaningful experience and it wasn’t—it didn’t turn out to be that. I mean, other than leading the troops and having the experience. And at that point I asked, I said “Okay, I am an engineer officer and I think I’ve seen what there is here and I am ready to go back to the engineers.” So, at that point I was able to go back. And at that point I went to B company 326 there at Evans so I got there just in time to go out on April 1st to Ripcord as an engineer instead of an infantryman. Interviewer: Alright. So, explain what happens that day, what do you recall about that and what do you know about it? �Veteran: That was the worst day of my life, without doubt. Ripcord had been abandoned the year before so we are going to go out. This is sort of the springboard again because of the monsoon. The year would go where, because of the monsoon in the winter, we couldn’t resupply fire bases so everybody pulls back. (00:50:07) Interviewer: Okay. You couldn’t resupply fire bases that were up in the mountains? Veteran: Right. Interviewer: And so, Ripcord was basically a hilltop fire base. Veteran: Yeah. There were some that were closer to the coast that were lower but Ripcord was out there. It wasn’t all the way to the A-Shau but it was out there and then because of the elevation, the weather was very, very difficult. You couldn’t drive to Ripcord. Some of the nearer ones, there were roads out, you could drive out to them. But so, we are going back to Ripcord to reopen it on April 1st. We had 2 sorties of 14 birds each: the infantry company and the battalion forward CP went out initially. I had 12 of my engineers. We were in the 2nd sortie, so they took—14 went out, they come back and pick up the rest of us, out we go. By the time we went out, that was around 9:30 in the morning. As we are approaching, I am looking down and there is red smoke all over the hill. So, red smoke means the LZ is hot, we are taking fire. You know. And so as we came in, the Huey I was in, and I am sure most of them, came in at about 5 feet off the ground. They started yelling, “Get out!” So, we are jumping out of the Hueys, grabbing our stuff and off you go. I mean, the birds were getting out of there as fast as they could because they are taking mortars. And by that point, there were people who are already wounded, maybe some killed, I am not sure. There were—I think there were 8 people killed that day at Ripcord. We get off. I just—I had my 12 guys. I made sure I knew where they were. I gathered �them, made sure they were accounted for in foxholes. There was no overhead cover at that point. I mean that was one of our missions, was to go in, get the bunkers going. (00:52:23) Interviewer: Okay. But there were foxholes there already? Veteran: There were foxholes. Just dug foxholes. And so, I made sure the guys were at least below. You know, if a mortar lands, you want to be below. You’re not going to find—if it lands right on you, you’re done. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And then I had 5 guys with me. We found 2 foxholes that were—well, they were about 5 feet long, a couple feet wide and 4 feet deep. And then there was one here and about 18 inches dirt, and then there was a second one. So, we got 3 guys in here. I am in here with 2 other guys. And we stayed there, because there is nothing else to do. I mean, we are not being attacked. I mean, we are not in fighting positions, fending off a ground attack. We were sitting there taking the mortar rounds. And this all started to be cyclical because the mortars would start firing when the birds came in. So, once the 2 sorties were in, they’re done. We were trying to get med evacs in and we had several med evacs who came in to pick up wounded. They took a few of the bodies out early but it reached the point where when the birds left, the mortars stopped. When the birds came back in, the mortars started. And this went on—and I have forgotten what time of day it was, but you know, you’re talking about being scared to death. You could hear a mortar round dropped in the tube. Everybody knows that thump. And then you hear the whistle going up and then you hear the whistle coming down. And so, every time you hear them, you just pray it’s not going to drop in your foxhole. (00:54:30) Interviewer: Okay. So now, what happens to your men over the course of that day? �Veteran: We just sat tight until the mortar landed in this foxhole. And Milt Swain was my radio operator and my jeep driver in the back. Landed right in his lap. You know, so we are all just kind of crouched down in the bottom and that mortar landed in that foxhole. It was a 60. If it had been an 80-82 millimeter mortar, all 3 of them would have been gone. Interviewer: So, was just—was he the only one killed at that point? Veteran: He was the only one killed. The other 2 were wounded. They jumped out of those foxholes. And I asked Dave Kenyon about this because I couldn’t remember where Dave was. And he said “No, I was over in another foxhole with two other guys.” But he said when Milton got killed, those 2 other guys were out of that foxhole and they ran over to our foxhole, they were—they were just a mess. They were med-evaced. Now, Milton’s body was not at that time. But you know, we are still doing this. And you know, it’s like 2 o’clock in the afternoon and what we have done all day is sit there and get shelled. And all day, we had—General Wright was the division commander. He’s up there in his bird. I know the brigade commander was up there. I don’t remember who that was? Interviewer: It was Bradley at that point. (00:56:10) Veteran: It was not Ben Harrison. Interviewer: Yeah, Harrison wasn’t there yet. Veteran: So, Bradley is up there. You know, everybody is up there trying to figure out what we are doing. And during the day, we had attack air was calling in and dropping bombs. They came in with Napalm. And they had what’s called counter battery radar. I don’t know if you are familiar with that but it was not at Ripcord, it was over on another fire base. But with counter battery radar, you can locate the origin points from tracking the arc up and where—and they can �back it to those points. And they had about 13 different places around Ripcord where firing was being done. And throughout the day, not one of them was stopped. Because what you had was the bunker complexes. And they already knew we were coming in clearly, because they were— their rounds were dropping on the fire base. They were not trying to zero in their guns. Their guns were ready and they would hop out of their little bunker holes, pop a round in or two, and they are back in their hole by the time attack air is there. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: So, none of that—you know, none of that was stopped. Interviewer: Right. Now, there had been an attempt to land in Ripcord in March already. So, they had evidence even from that that this was a place of interest and they had time to plan. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: But even that attack was thwarted in part by enemy fire. Veteran: And yeah, I wasn’t aware of that. You know, it’s funny because sometimes you can be a grunt platoon leader and not know a thing about what’s going on, other than maybe what your company is doing. (00:58:06) Interviewer: Right. Yeah, so that was before you were worrying about that kind of thing and so…? Veteran: You’re right, you’re right. I didn’t know what was going on at Ripcord but…So, middle of the afternoon, the decision was made: okay, we are giving it up today. Everybody is going to walk off the hill and you’re going to meet up with—I think it was alpha company. Alpha over �there. And he was over there, it was not one of the numbered hills. We’ve got 805, 605, 902. He was just over on the next hill in the jungle. And he sent a couple guys down to meet us and you know, so the remainder probably had, I don’t know, 100-110 people by then after, you know, some of them being taken out. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: So, we walked off. Interviewer: And what time of day was this? Veteran: This was hitting late afternoon. It was starting to get a little dark. And then we hooked up with Al. You know, get up to the top of the hill and I know Al. Al was a year ahead of me at VMI and I know him very well. I said, “Glad to see you, buddy.” So, at that point, they’re trying to fire on us but they don’t know where we are because it was not a known hill. We were just in the jungle but they are starting to move their fire. The infantry company that had been the security on Ripcord…You know, we overnighted there with Al and then I think the next day, that infantry company regrouped. And they headed back into the field. Interviewer: Right. (1:00:02) Veteran: To start doing some work. Interviewer: Yeah, that was the B company. They complained they didn’t get enough food from A company. Veteran: So…Oh, okay. Well, all best plans. Well, the plan was that for, so…I am sure it was for 3 engineers, so 13, there were 10 of us. I got 9 guys. And the plan was just to airlift us back to Evans for now. And we couldn’t get out for 3 days. You know we wake up, we woke up the next �morning and look down in the lowlands and we see Evans is sucked in with weather. So, birds can’t get out. Okay, we’ll wait and later in the day…Well, as it lifted down there, it rose and we couldn’t get out. And that happened for a couple of days. And it was fine I think the 3rd day before they could get us out. Well, yeah we were a little short on food at that point. Because that wasn’t the plan, to go in with a week’s worth of C rats for the Ripcord opening. Interviewer: Alright. Now, in the meantime do you get harassed by the NVA at all or do they leave you alone? Veteran: I think they pretty much left us alone. Again, they weren’t sure where we were and now after April 1st, I think the concentration—there was much more effort, trying to locate and root out these spots that…So, I think there was less of that. Interviewer: Now, did the company move around at all or did you just stay in one place? Veteran: We stayed right there. Pretty much. I think Al had people working in the mediate vicinity but the engineers, we pretty much stayed there with Al’s command post. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so after 3 days or whatever it is, you get back to Evans again. Okay. And now, a few days after that…Okay, so we’ve now basically made it into April of 1970 and the 2nd attempt, I mean there were people would walk up on April 11th. The company walks up rather than flying in helicopters so nobody shoots at them. And once they’re there, it’s time to start building a base. And so, what do you either remember or know about what your platoon did? (1:02:39) Veteran: Well, I don’t remember details but yes, we went back in. we must have gone out on choppers and they would have brought out one of our little dozers. So, I went back in with probably a couple of my squads and David Kenyon was in one of those. And he reminded me. �And then we spent probably 3 weeks or so constructing fortifications, the covered bunkers, doing wire—perimeter wire. You know, that’s the kind of job that typically we did in support of fire bases. You know, opening— Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you coordinating with any of the infantry officers? Because there was a captain by the name of Vazquez who was—he commanded that company. Veteran: I don’t remember him but I have heard stories about him. Interviewer: Puerto Rican captain. It was something. And he--his, I mean he talked a lot about how exactly he wanted the wire laid and how he wanted the fighting positions constructed and things like that. Veteran: Yeah, we weren’t doing so much the individual. I know that he was very adamant about the individual fighting positions. We were—we focused on the big bunkers, the battalion for— the command post for you know, they were underground. They’re constructed out of heavy timber and then covered. (1:04:10) Interviewer: Right, and the artillery positions? Veteran: We would have shaped those up with the dozers. And then they do a lot of the revetments of the—after they have fired a bit, they’ve got the wooden ammo boxes that are great for sort of constructing the revetments around the fighting positions. Interviewer: Right. But the infantry did take their own positions in a lot of cases, so you didn’t do that for them? Veteran Right. In talking yesterday with someone, I realized that we, the engineer, we had a small sector of the perimeter. So, you got infantry so we were out there. So, certainly in our little �sector we were responsible for, you know, clearing the fields of fire the way Captain Vazquez wanted them. And making sure that our fighting positions were in our sector. So, we took care of that. We generally didn’t do the individual positions for everybody around the base. Interviewer: Right. And describe a little bit about what you remember about what the layout of the hill looked like? Or what did you have up there? Veteran: It was very irregular. It’s hard for me to remember. Even from both of April 1 and then later of…The layout, because it had been used before. So, you got a lot of dirt that had been pushed around you know for bunkers and that sort of thing previously. Don’t really remember too much. Interviewer: Okay. How rocky was it? I mean, was it—did you have to blast a lot of rock? Veteran: No, no blasting. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: No blasting. We could push it all with the dozer. (1:06:00) Interviewer: Alright. And while you were there, this is basically most of the rest of April probably that you’re there? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Were you taking in any fire? Veteran: Not that I remember. It was…No. �Interviewer: Okay. Well I guess at this point you got—the line companies are working the area around it, it might have been a little harder to launch mortars at you if they wanted to. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: But anyway, it was relatively quiet? Veteran: I think we were surprised when we went back in 10 days later and…nothing. And you know, so that was the build up of, you know, Ripcord as the fortified base that it later was. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: I have one vague recollection. It had to have happened on Ripcord when we had our own little sector of the platoon and you know, we got word came to the fire base that, you know, you need to get ready, you need to be on full alert tonight. You’re going to get hit with zappers. So, pucker up boys. Nothing happened. It didn’t happen but I do remember that because we were on edge and that, you know, wasn’t that often that we were. Especially with the engineers on the perimeter, which we weren’t— Interviewer: Yeah. So, you’re out there on the perimeter at night. I mean, can you see anything? Veteran: No. I know they shot a lot of flares. And they’d do that. And you’re thinking, we are supposed to hear them? You know, we got trip wires and trip flares in the wire and you’re hoping that you are going to be able to sense their movement coming up the side of the hill. Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, you’re there, you do your job. Now, you just go on to do other jobs from there? (1:08:00) �Veteran: I did. And I expect some of the engineers may have left a squad there to continue. But you know, I am back here and there. I remember going on a recovery mission in the middle of May. One of the resupply chopper from headquarters company 2/506 went down. Went down in the jungle with 4 crew. You had Lieutenant John Darling, was at West Point ’68. I knew—I had met him so I knew him. He was on—I think he was the common officer for the battalion. He and one of his guys were on the bird. They’re going out on this resupply. The bird went down and crashed and rolled. And one of the crew, one of the helicopter crew survived. He didn’t know— he had no idea where he was. He moved out and he was picked up. I don’t…You know, within that day or the next day. He didn’t know where the bird was. It took them about 5 or 6 days to find the bird. So, you’ve got 5 bodies in that bird in the May heat and they’re going out on a recovery mission. And I got tasked and I took 1 or 2 of my engineers in case we needed to go in and blast a landing zone nearby to do our work. We went in with the body bags to get the 5 bodies and make sure that the equipment in the chopper was totally destroyed. The bird wasn’t coming out. So, that’s something that I distinctly remember, going on that mission was horrendous. (1:10:15) Interviewer: Okay, now how did they get you in? I mean if you said there’s not a landing zone there. Veteran: Well, I don’t know whether there was or not. And I guess it’ll be a mystery. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Somehow, we— Interviewer: But basically, what stands out for you is just the nature of the mission. And were the bodies still there? �Veteran: The bodies were there and the smell was horrible. We put on gas masks. Interviewer: Had the NVA been there, as far as you could tell? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I guess they didn’t know where it was either. So, you know, that was just one of those odd jobs that we did and I remember that one. But you know, we are supporting the battalion fire bases. There were a couple others that were active at that point. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And, you know, whatever was needed. Interviewer: Yeah. And at that point, at least, well, 2/506 wasn’t having combat at that point but some of the other battalions got into things. 1/506 had some trouble in May. I mean there were—there were sort of different fights that went on at different points but basically—but you’re just doing your job as engineers and you’re going and building things or moving things as needed. Veteran: Right. Right. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how much longer did you spend as a platoon leader? Veteran: Probably the first week in June, I was promoted to captain. So, at that point—at that point I was assigned, I took over headquarters company 326, the engineer headquarters company. And that was at Camp Eagle. So, I am out of the AO there, at least in that area. And I spent the next—about the next 6 months down at Eagle. I was the headquarters company commander part of the time, and then part of the time I was the battalion S-1. And that was coming up on the end �of my tour. And I made a deal, I extended, and I went back out. When I came back, I took an R and R at the end of the year, came back from R and R and I went to B company 326 so I am back up at Evans as the company commander now in January. (1:12:41) Interviewer: Okay. Well, let’s kind of get into parts of that story now. So, when you are headquarters company commander at Phu Bai, what did the job consist of? Veteran: A lot of vehicle maintenance, a lot of administration. So, not out anywhere. Interviewer: Okay, now while you are doing that, that’s when things get hot out at Ripcord, particularly in July. How much of that did you pay attention to, or how much of that were you aware of? Veteran: It must have been a closely guarded secret because it was 35 years later before I came to realize what happened in June and July. Had no clue. I am sitting there at Camp Eagle, no clue. Interviewer: Alright. So, what’s daily life like on a big base like that? Veteran: You’re expected to have clean, starched fatigues, you’re, you know…Not the life that I had been used to there for, you know, for the past 6 months. Ran around battalion headquarters. We actually, the engineer battalion, had the old Seabee Camp. The Seabees had a bunch of Quonset huts that they had used for maintenance and so forth, and that was ideal for us. You know, you go to briefings, taking care of business and kind of a—not a memorable occasion. (1:14:21) �Interviewer: Alright. Now there are a lot of kind of stereotypes about Vietnam and what went on there and so forth. One is particularly with base camps. There was a lot of problems with drug use and things like that. Are you aware of any of that kind of thing? Veteran: I didn’t encounter much of that. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: A lot of beer drinking but I didn’t encounter—I didn’t really come across a lot of drugs. Interviewer: Okay. And the other thing had to do with racial tensions. Was there some segregation? Did the blacks segregate themselves? Or were there fights and things like that? Veteran: Not so much in the engineer battalion. Yeah, I think the grunts had it a little different. Yeah, I think with the engineers. I mean we had, you know, when you’re back in base camp, you got a little bit more meaningful jobs perhaps that you are doing. And i think that, you know, our experiences on the fire bases carried back to the back as well. I didn’t see a lot of that. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, I asked because there is different—a great deal of experiences. A lot of this stuff gets over blown because it’s the sensational part. Veteran: Right. Yeah. Interviewer: But for you, it wasn’t really registering that those kinds of things were issues. Veteran: No. I had a few individuals…You know, had to work through problems individually but it wasn’t so much, you know, racial divide. It was, you know, a guy didn’t want to go out in the field because he was derosing in 3 weeks. He wasn’t getting on that chopper to go out there. You know, that sort of thing. (1:16:02) �Interviewer: Yep. Veteran: So, you just have to work through that. But again, and I am not taking credit for being the dynamic leader that you know, made sure there were no problems. But I just—it just happened that way it seemed like. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and now somewhere along the line, you decide to extend? Veteran: I did. Interviewer: How did that come about? Veteran: Well, that’s because I wanted to command the line company. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And headquarters company and division headquarters and kind of doing that stuff. It’s not like having the line company out there supporting the brigade. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And that’s—so, that’s what I got. And I had that for the remaining 6 months. Interviewer: Okay. And in between, you took an R and R? Veteran: I took an R and R. After the 1st year, I took an R and R. I think it was…I think I only took one. Interviewer: And you didn’t go back? Veteran: I didn’t go back to the states. I wasn’t married. And my parents, it wasn’t like, “Oh, I can’t wait to see you!” You know? I mean, they sent my brother and me off, we go off and join the military, and that’s what they expected, you know? �Interviewer: Okay. So, what did you pick for R and R? Veteran: I went to Sidney. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: My week in Sidney, yeah. It was quite a time. It was different. Interviewer: So, like just being out of a war zone for a while? Veteran: People were friendly and you know—which, wouldn’t have been the case had I gone back to the states. But I remember the Sidney Opera House. I mean, everybody has seen the photos of the sort of clamshell stacked up there. But yeah, I enjoyed my time. And then I headed back. Interviewer: Alright. Okay. So, you get back. So, during what time span then are you commanding that company? Veteran: Well, that’s from January to June. I came home in June of ’71. This is ’71 now. (1:18:07) Interviewer: Okay. Now during that time then, what—what kinds of things did you do with the company? Veteran: Well, the big thing that occurred was Lam Son 719. And that was an operation in the works. And I took my company up to Khe Sanh. You know, this was staged. 101st went into Khe Sanh. This thing kicked off I think January 30th was the day they identify. And I went out with— we took some of our little dump trucks, drove out. We didn’t chopper out. Some of the people might have but we basically moved some equipment out. And that had been the Marine base. It had pretty much taken a beating and they had taken artillery fire. And you know, little craters all �over the runway. The runway was made of that steel planking. We didn’t repair, they brought in a specialty engineer platoon that repaired those planks. You can replace them. First thing was to get the runway in shape. That was going on but when we got up there, our job was to again start constructing bunkers. We had the dozers, we start cutting these deep, big slots, getting the timber bunkers built inside of them, filling them and covering them, while the airstrip is getting rehab. And once the airstrip got rehab, then they started flying in C-130s. and never stopped. They would come in from the east end. The runway ran east-west and was sort of a drop off on the east end. But they would come through, drop the tailgate, plop a little parachute out the back and then we’d yank these pallets of supplies out the back of the 130s and they never stopped. It was just kind of a touch and go operation and they started, you know, we started ramping up the prep for supporting the ARVNs going into Laos. Interviewer: Alright, so the ARVNs were invading Laos. The Americans couldn’t officially go with them? Veteran: The only one—right. Which—well, there were advisors and there were helicopters. (1:20:29) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And it was largely the 101st aviation assets, and I think we had some additional units for the south. So, we are providing the aviation assets and we are inserting them in various spots over. You know, they had an operation, which again was one of those things that I read a book here in the past couple years to find out really what was going on there. Had no idea. So, we are sitting there at Khe Sanh and building the big bunkers and doing some wire work but largely the bunker operation. And I think we were probably there 6 or 8 weeks. And during that time, a few �things happened. One thing that happened is, and we had been there maybe a couple of weeks. All was quiet, you know we are getting this place fortified. And then one morning, about 7 in the morning, we wake up to I am thinking, at the time I was thinking, 100-120 artillery rounds coming in. Not mortars but big stuff. And it was coming from up in the northwest of Khe Sanh. And Bob asked me yesterday, “Were they coming from Laos?” I said, “I don’t know whether it was coming from Laos or the DMZ, but it was toward the northwest.” And there were mountains going up there. So, you’re looking up at these mountains and there’s artillery up there firing. And so, we are all taking cover. And 15 minutes, it’s over. Didn’t happen again. So, quirky things like that, you know? (1:22:26) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And the other thing that I remember, because what—as I said, east-west runway. We are—the engineers, we are all on the south side. And we are not on the perimeter, we are at the inside of the perimeter, a little bit close to the airstrip. On the far side of the field, the 2nd of the 17th Cav, the air cav, they had their set up. And they had a sector of the perimeter. And they had their Cobra gunships in there and then they had built their revetments. It’s all tucked away nicely. And they had their perimeter and they had their ground troops. You know, they have not just the aviation people but they had their ground troops. About 2 in the morning, a fire fight erupts. And we realize that the cav across the runway are being attacked. And it was a very serious encounter. It went on for about an hour and a half to two hours. Pretty crack sapper unit. And it was just a pitched battle. And you know we are sitting over there and nothing else is happening, just right over there. And then something got into one of the storage things and stuff started cooking off and they had some of the Cobra rockets started…We are watching the fireworks. And this is going on and on and finally the cav repelled them. They’re done, they pull �out. A few bodies. And you know, daylight comes along and everybody is checking out and the cav had the perfect set up. These guys knew what they were doing. They had the defensive positions, they had the works. Everything. If the sappers—they couldn’t have picked a worse spot to come through. And the next morning, the sort of camp commander I guess, I don’t know really who he was or what he was, he did a tour of the perimeter of Khe Sanh. And down at the east end, we had about 150 yards of perimeter. There wasn’t a soul there. No one had been assigned a sector of the perimeter. No one. And we are thinking had the sappers done their homework and found that, it would have been different. But they picked the absolute best defended section of the perimeter and they got kicked. (1:25:23) Interviewer: Okay. Well, I suppose they knew where the helicopters were? Veteran: Yep, yeah the Cobras were over there. For sure. The rest of them, I am not sure where they were. Because there were a lot, a lot of just slicks to carry the people. But that was, yeah. So… Interviewer: Alright. Other things that kind of stand out for you from the time when you are commanding that company? Veteran: Not too many. Interviewer: Okay. Were you starting to turn bases over to the Vietnamese by this time? Veteran: Oh, we did have one other thing I remember, when I had the company. During the—it was during the monsoon. We were tasked, we went down to…It was, it might have been on QL1, but it was right around Hue. There was a bridge over a significant sized river there. And the monsoon was washing all of this debris down, and there was so much of it that it started hanging on the bridge abutments and started building up and the water started rising. And the concern �was it was going to get blocked and then the bridge was going to go out. So, we were down there with the equipment and we were fighting to keep the debris clear. And again, that’s one of those vague memories but I do remember that. (1:26:58) Interviewer: Now that’s near an area that would have had a civilian population in it, probably? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And did you see much of the Vietnamese people while you were there? Either civilians or military? Veteran: Very little. We had civilians who came on the base camp at Evans. I think I might have made a couple of trips, maybe to one of the villages nearby but generally not. I mean even Evans—we weren’t that secure, we would take RPGs and rockets. You know you think we are way back here at the back, you know but it didn’t matter. These weren’t NVA, and so you are very careful about what you’re doing and where you’re going. Interviewer: Right. Okay. And did you see much of the ARVNs or were they elsewhere? Because I guess they would have gone through Khe Sanh. Veteran: They were elsewhere. During this period of time, the set up starting from the DMZ. The Marines had pulled out, the Marines were back down to Da Nang. The ARVNs then filled in the upper slice and I am going from the coast to the lay ocean border, coming down from there. The ARVNs area of operation was that first slice, and then you moved down and we got the 3rd brigade…I think the 3rd brigade. (1:28:29) Interviewer: Well, that’s the brigade that you were mostly with, or at least that’s what— �Veteran: Yeah, that was at…I got a little confused talking with Bob last night about what— where the 2nd brigade was, 101st. I thought they were all south. I thought 3rd brigade was the uppermost, and so then we got that next slice. When Lam Son 719 kicked off, basically it was an extension of the ARVNs and some other units who were joined in. And we moved up to Khe Sanh to kind of backfill there and support. But we didn’t go up and take over the AO. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: The 1st of the 5th Mech was at Quang Tri, they were up there as well. I only—I never really saw them. I know that from reading the book, Keith Nolan’s book called Dewey Canyon II/Lam Son 719, that the 1st of the 5th Mech was running QL-9. They were running escorts for convoys, they were doing some maint—we weren’t maintaining roads. But they were up there and that was where they had been. Interviewer: Yeah. So, the Vietnamese were mostly elsewhere. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. And most of the area you were operating in didn’t have civilians in it at all? Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Alright, now so you kind of get to the end now of your time. You have extended in Vietnam. You get kind of to the middle now of 1971. What happens next? (1:30:11) Veteran: I head back to Fort Belvoir. Orders from Belvoir: no stops along the way, just head on back. I was there for another 2 years. �Interviewer: Okay. And what was your job there? Veteran: I had 2 jobs, about a year for each one. One of them was—I was a—and I am a captain at this point, I had a…I was assigned to the student brigade there at the engineer school. The student brigade was AIT students. They finished their basic, they are coming through to do specialty engineer MOS’s for their…I was a company commander for one of the companies. And there were about—must have been about 6 companies. I mean basically we were holding companies while they are going to school. And then they are off. You know, so it’s a very transient thing. That was…Well, that wasn’t all that exciting. But once in a while, things happened there. I remember that one of my troops, one of my student troops, on payday, he approached another soldier somewhere on post. And robbed him. And it turned out that—well, within the week or so, the CID showed up at my company and said, “Sir, do you have a student in the company named Moore?” I said, “Yes, I do.” They said, “We want to talk to him.” Well, Private Moore was wearing his field jacket with his name on it when he robbed the guy. Didn’t take them long. So, off Private Moore goes. What do we got here? (1:32:20) Interviewer: What kind of recruits were you getting in the army at this point in time? Veteran: Kind of a mixed bag. Interviewer: Well, were there still draftees coming in? Veteran: They were still draft, yeah. We weren’t to the volunteer army quite yet. It’s interesting, I mean now look at the volunteer army today. And I got to look at the students. I mean, these were engineer students so I—you know, you sort of think, well maybe, a little bit brighter. Interviewer: Right. �Veteran: But not so—I remember in Vietnam, even in my infantry platoon, in both my platoons, I had college graduates. You know, I had what I considered a mix of society in the units. You know? You draft some, some volunteer, but you got a lot of people and not just the ones who are sort of you know, self-identifying that they want to go into the army or they were offered the army versus something worse. So, you know, that was a change. But I don’t think I was seeing that quite yet there at Belvoir. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. And so, you have that assignment for your first year. Veteran: No, that was 6 months—oh yeah, yeah. That was a year, right. Interviewer: Okay. And then what do you mean…? Veteran: And then the other assignment was I was an instructor at the engineer school. And I believe it was—most of the classes were the second lieutenants coming in for their basic course. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I don’t even remember what I was teaching. You know, I went through an instructor training class and off we go. And so, we’re, you know, training the young officers to go out and do their job. Interviewer: Okay. So, this is—and then, where exactly in Virginia is Fort Belvoir? Veteran: Fort Belvoir is just on the south edge of D.C., if you know where Mount Vernon, if you come down into Virginia. (1:34:28) Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Veteran: Fort Belvoir is right across the—it’s just below Mount Vernon actually. �Interviewer: Alright. So, you’re in the D.C. area and now we have made it into the early ‘70s. And then we’re moving—we are Vietnam, we are doing Vietnamization, we are kind of pulling out of Vietnam but also the anti-war movement has become pretty powerful. The political move is very much against the war and so forth. To what extent did that make it into your world? Or, how aware were you of all that? Veteran: Oh, I was well aware of, you know those past couple—past 2 years, I was well aware of what was happening around the country. You know, you’re there, you read the paper every day, you watch television, whatever. But in the D.C. area, it was very heavily militarized. And so in terms of my personal space, you wouldn’t know it. You wouldn’t know what was going on because there was so much military support in the area for the military. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, now while you are there, you are getting into ’73. Are you thinking, okay is it time to get out? Or what are you looking for? Veteran: I was thinking…And I am trying to remember. Oh, I must have been involved in court martial maybe. I worked with some of the jag officers and I thought you know, I think what I will do is apply to law school through the jag program. See if I can do that. I got turned down for that. But I thought, you know what? I am going to do it anyway. I am going to resign—I resigned my commission, I applied. I got into University of Virginia Law School. Very fine law school. I resigned my commission, took a reserve commission and continued with that but went down to Charlottesville, Virginia, did my 3 years of law school. And then I moved up the valley a little bit to—well, it wasn’t actually the valley. Up to a place called Warrenton, Virginia. Joined a firm. It was small. Small town firm. And I thought, you know this—and I practiced for 2 years with the firm. There were 3—there were 4 of us attorneys. The 2, father and son who were the �main partners, and then there was another partner and then there was me. And I did that for 2 years and I said, “Not doing this.” (1:37:11) Interviewer: Well, what kind of law were you doing at that point? Veteran: It was just general practice. I handled a lot of stuff. And I thought no, I am not going to do this for the next 40 years. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, I had been in touch with a fellow reservist who I knew who was also an engineer. And he worked for a small general contractor, building contractor. He said, “Joe, you ought to go up to D.C. You ought to get in with—there’s a big, big contractor up there, the George Hyman Construction Company. You ought to go up there and hook on with them as an assistant project manager. See what—you know, so you can go in and learn the nuts and bolts about contracting. You got the engineering degree.” But he said, “I work in a little company and we are small and we don’t have sort of specialists.” He said, “When I have a project, I am doing everything.” And he said, “That would be hard for you to come into a small company like ours and start from scratch. That probably wouldn’t work.” He said, “But go try it.” So, I wrote a letter to the personnel director up in Hyman and I sent in my resume and he gave me a call. And he said, “I got your resume. It’s pretty impressive.” But he said, “We just hired a general counsel recently, and we don’t need any, you know, another lawyer right now.” I said, “No, no, you got it wrong.” (1:38:54) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I said, “That’s not what I want.” He said, “Oh. Well, why don’t you come on up and talk to us?” So, I went up and I hired on as an assistant project manager. And Hyman was a fairly �large, you know, national contractor. And I started out on a small project there in D.C. It was an addition. It was a 6-story addition to the Republican National Congressional Committee Headquarters there on Capitol Hill. And so, you know, I sort of took over running the job as the, I was an ABN. But my boss was simply a mentor. He was running other jobs and he said, “I’ll look over your shoulder once in a while but you got it.” And so off we go. And I did that and then I, you know, continued on to bigger and better things. And then, I think—let’s see, how long have I been there? I think I was there 5 years. And I thought you know, there’s some things about the way the company runs that…You’re sort of a cog in the wheel. So, I went down to Charlotte, North Carolina. I interviewed with a guy down there. McDevens Street was another big contractor. And I went to work for them down there. And was a senior PM and vice president. They had a lot of vice presidents, no big deal. I was there for 2 years and I said you know, I don’t think this is going to go here. So, I went back. I returned to D.C. I spent a year consulting. I did some work for small contractors, in terms of…I mean, I had some expertise. I helped them out with things. And then after a year, I went back over to Hyman and said, “I’d like to come back to work, if that’s okay?” And they said, “Great!” So, I worked, total I worked for Hyman for…This was in, I went back in about ’86. About 8 years later, the company—Jim Clark owned Hyman. And he owned Omni Construction. Omni was an open shop company Clark had. Hyman was the union contractor. Originally, they had sort of separate markets because in D.C., you could work downtown if you were union. Open shop guys, you need to stay out by the beltway. But it reached the point where we were starting to chase the same jobs. The split between union and non-union was fading. And Cark said, “What are we doing here?” So, the two merged and became Clark Construction. The Clark Construction Group. And I stayed another 10 �years doing that. Running some big government work and various private work. I enjoyed it. I found—you know, I found my calling. (1:42:35) Interviewer: There you go! Veteran: I got the satisfaction out of building things and showing my kids, you know I worked on that job there. Interviewer: Alright. Well, aside from the whole engineering background experience thing, what do you think you took out of your time in the service? Or, how do you think that affected you? Veteran: Well, I think that along with the VMI experience, you know, kind of rolled into realizing that you’ve probably seen the worst you’re ever going to see. You know, things in front of you are never going to be that tough. You know, just the ability to pick what you’re going to do and know that you are going to accomplish it. Well. (1:43:27) Interviewer: Alright. Well, the whole thing makes for a pretty good story. And you have actually done a very good job of pulling it together. So, I’d just like to thank you for taking the time to share it today. Veteran: No problem. Well, I can tell you a little bit about what I am doing now. Interviewer: Sure. Veteran: Volunteering with veterans. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I actually, I am involved with a project that’s done through a—Touchstone Discussion Project. They’re an educational based focus. They don’t teach classes, they teach teachers how to �train—how to conduct classes with their kids. This is K-12, college , this is around the world. They’re in a bunch of different countries. And it’s a discussion-based sort of program. And you get a group of people together. And you do multiple sessions. And it’s based on texts. And what we—they recently got a grant from NAH, through the Veteran’s History Project, to put on something. And so, the president of Touchstone’s wrote this program and it’s called Completing the Odyssey: The Journey Home. And it’s an 8-session program where we review the issues that some of us members face re-integrating into community. You know we started with, first of all, who goes and serves? That’s one session we talk about. But we each bring our experiences. And it’s all veterans. And we each bring our experiences. But a bigger part of it is, the skills that we are conveying, is critical thinking and active listening. And you know, I confessed to Howard, who is the guy who wrote this thing. I said, “Howard, 70 years of my life, I never did critical thinking. I never even thought about critical thinking.” And a lot of people come through and you know we sit down, and the idea—Howard is a professor at St. John’s College there in Annapolis. And he started this 35 years ago. He said, “You know, we’ve got the educational approach all wrong. Because we keep reinforcing to the students that there is an authority figure in that class and they are always looking to that authority figure for the right answer.” And he said, “There’s no right answer.” And so, you know, we have a couple of guys, couple of vets, who lead the program. I am one of the group leaders. And we sit down at the beginning. We read a text from—we have the ancient texts and the modern texts. We have Ulysses’—we got The Odyssey, we got stuff from The Odyssey. And Ulysses is trying to get home. And then we’ve got modern texts. We use Karl Marlaantes, wrote—we use one of his narratives about him coming home on the ship from Vietnam is what he should have done. You know he talked about—we get on the commercial airline, here the stewardess is handing out cokes and peanuts and he said, �“You know, this is just not right. Yesterday, we didn’t know if we were going to get out of the jungle and today, we are here?” And no time to decompress. You know, it should have been like World War 2: you ride the boat home for a week. Got to calm down with your buddies. And so we read a text, the group leader reads a text out loud, so there’s no homework. We just come in, we read a text and then I say, “Okay, everybody just jot down a question about tonight’s issue that you think would be worth the group talking about.” And we go and we read the questions out. And then if I am the group leader, I say, “Okay, let’s start with this question.” And I will throw out a question. And we spend 20 minutes talking about the question and the focus on so what is the experience of people joining the service? You know, and we have all got that experience of joining the service. And so we go through these things. You know, we talk about the absence and you know, what do you think about when you’re…And we talk about coming home and thinking about things have changed. Yeah, they have. In big ways. And not only have the people you have left behind changed, but you need to recognize that you have changed yourself. So, you know, we are getting people to think and talk who a lot of them haven’t done that before. And in the group, the group leaders are looking to pull the people in who are kind of—kind of sitting back. (1:48:21) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And we have done this—we have done this several times. And we just got another grant for it. And that has been a lot of my time. So anyway. Interviewer: Now, for you, I guess because you were still staying in the army and actually in a way, you had the really intense experiences in the field and then things kind of ratcheted down by degrees. And then you’re back, probably still in the army for a while �before you leave. You think that helped you become a civilian again or did you still have hurdles to get over? (1:48:53) Veteran: I’ll tell you my story in the Touchstone, in the discussion group. Because we talk about coming home and what do you think about? What are you picturing when you are coming home? Are you coming home to a place? Are you coming home to someone? Or what? And I shared with the group the first time through. I said, “Military family: my parents sent us off, my brother and I, to go do our military thing. No regrets. You know, small town in north Alabama. I never went back there. I visited my parents but there was never a thought. You know, a lot of guys grew up in a small town. They got lifelong friends, their buddies through high school, and they go off and they come back to right there. There was never a thought for me that I would come back to that place. And my parents wouldn’t expect me to. So, you know, I continue on my way. And then when I got out of the army, I am doing other things. I am going off to practice law and I am going up to D.C. to build—work.” I said, “I have finally realized where home is for me and what it is. I am in a bubble. And wherever I am, that’s my home. It’s wherever I am. I have no expectations I will be placed anywhere. And I have people. But” I said, “growing up as a military brat, there was nothing more heartbreaking than every 3 years, moving. And saying goodbye to your 7-year old buddies or your 9-year old buddies.” And I said, “I think because of that, I could tell over my lifetime that it was probably harder for me to form close relationships. I have my third wife.” And you know, I am sharing this with a group that that’s, you know, that’s my thoughts of homecoming. And there was never a place that I was going to be going back to but you know there were perhaps people and things. (1:51:25) Interviewer: Yeah. And of course, a lot of that isn’t even necessarily what the military did to you from your own career, it was more just how you grew up. �Veteran: I grew up that way, yeah. Interviewer: But in a way, it also kind of prepared you for a military career at the same time. Veteran: Yeah. I remember my parents’ best friends were people they knew in the service. You know, and with the SAC group I mean there were—there was a circuit there. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And so—and we are getting ready to start, in September/October, it’s going to be another vets group. (1:52:03) Interviewer: Alright. I am glad we got a chance to add that here before we close that out. Veteran: Okay. Great. (1:52:09) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SmithJ2318V Title A name given to the resource Smith, Joe (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-27 Description An account of the resource Joe Smith was born on April 17th , 1946 in Topeka, Kansas. After graduating from high school, he attended Virginia Military Institute where he graduated with a degree in civil engineering in 1968 and joined the Army. He was then sent to Fort Bragg to join the 82nd Airborne Division, with which he became a platoon leader and General's aid. He later requested a transfer to Vietnam, where he was first stationed at Camp Eagle and saw combat at Firebase Ripcord. In 1971, Smith was stationed at Fort Belvior where he served out the rest of his tour and instructed the student brigade at the engineering school. He retired from the military in 1973 before pursuing a law degree at the University of Virginia Law School. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Joe O. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/07c597b4f2e27d133503e2987c1c4300.m4v 11f86b0938de586e52917f4c67589930 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/466426f698a80ce7b0c898ed0ec4f309.pdf 4b2ab14fa3ce9ad8f8c3196ac6ff410f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Vietnam War John Smith Length: 123 Minutes Pre-Enlistment Born in Fredericktown Missouri in 1946 (0:20) Grew up in Southeast Missouri, in the town of Mable Hill (0:27) Father was shoe factory supervisor, eventually became plant manager (0:33) Mother was a part time factory worker (0:47) Had a brother and a sister, he was the oldest sibling (0:51) Went to High School in Bollinger County until junior year, when the factory closed, and family moved to Tennessee (1:04) Graduated from High School in Springfield Tennessee, in 1964 (1:23) He went to college at Austin Peay State University 25 miles away at Clarkston for one year (1:36) ROTC and Enlistment His father’s job moved and his family moved to Cookeville Tennessee and he transferred to Tennessee tech (01:51) He got involved in the military ROTC there (1:57) He had to do ROTC for the first two years (2:15) Father was supportive of becoming an officer, because he was World War II vet (2:21) Took double the ROTC classes to catch up to his class level (2:54) He was very aware of what was happening in Vietnam, some of his instructors had severed there (3:30) There was communication between grads in Vietnam and the ROTC and some trained with them (3:49) Should have graduated in 1968 and did met the ROTC requirements (4:16) �Received a distinguished military student designation. (4:25) Left Tennessee Tech after he fell behind, in a tax class that he could not retake until the next year (5:00) He did not want to wait to join the Army (5:08) Got a reserve commission because he needed a college degree for a regular commission (5:23) Training at IOBC He went to IOBC (infantry officer basic course) in Fort Benning (5:54) He could choose from many options (5:58) He choose to be an infantry officer in Southeast Asia (Vietnam) on his dream sheet (6:09) He felt that his training was leading him to go to Vietnam and he wanted to go (6:21) Started IOBC on June 9th 1969 (6:37) Was primarily classroom work with some outside work, called practical exercises, designed to teach you skills needed to be an officer (7:01) Such as map reading, calling in artillery, and leadership qualities (7:04) ROTC was focused on war with USSR in Europe, IOBC was focused on Vietnam War (7:39) Many of the trainers had been in Vietnam (8:00) Videos and diagrams from real battles in Vietnam were used frequently (8:22) Much of the training was based the experience of the instructors in Vietnam (8:34) All of the training was focused in Vietnam because everyone knew they would be sent there, and most were (8:41) His class was the class of 1969, 1369 was the designation (9:13) In his training class around 50% were National Guard Lieutenants (9:29) A few regular army, mostly reservist (9:58) Military intelligence officers had to go through the training, before they went to MI school (10:11) The Guardsmen went back home after training (10:15) They were somewhat disliked, but he could not remember any fights breaking out (10:20) West Pointers were in a different training class (11:18) Half a dozen enlisted who had become officers, they were 5 or 6 years older (11:50) More physically demanding than ROTC (12:10) �He joined Tech Rangers, which did PT and other extra training (12:32) He went to some camp between junior and senior year that was similar to Basic Training for enlisted (12:48) In ROTC did some marching between the quads but did road marches, took buses to and from training sites (13:18) So it was not as physically demanding (13:28) Training at Fort Riley and Jungle School He did not go to specialized training, he went straight to Fort Riley Kansas where he became a platoon leader in the 24st Infantry division (13:39) He was a platoon leader in the mechanized infantry for 6 months (13:48) He felt like he did know what he was doing at the start (14:19) Being able to do real training with his platoon, such as map reading, helped build up his confidence in his leadership (15:10) Everyone in his platoon had served in the war (15:42) It was common for injured troops to be reassign to these training platoons (15:55) Every six months old Lieutenants left, and new ones arrived (16:19) It was sobering to read that some of the Lieutenants he trained with were killed in Vietnam, while he was still in training (16:52) The troops talked about Vietnam, was not a secret (17:10) Some of the troops felt they were to dumb to do anything else, but he did not feel that way (17:30) Many soldiers under his command were proud of being soldiers (17:55) Many of the enlisted did not want to be there, so had a negative attitude (18:10) Not really any advice on how to an effective officer (18:33) The enlisted reflect the view of America, thinking that the war was screwed up and that the war should end (18:46) Did not get much encouragement from the enlisted (19:39) While some had issues, most did there did their jobs well despite being draftees (19:54) There was not a lot of back talk (20:24) Some were screw ups (20:30) Most were very good (20:45) �Was temporarily part of the 1st Division (21:28) The biggest difference between the States and Vietnam was that in Vietnam every job seemed important, particularly planning (S-4) and operations (S-3) (21:51) He received his orders in February of 1970 (22:22) He had got to home for about thirty days in March (22: 39) Family had moved to Kentucky and he had married a girl in Kentucky (22:45) He went to jungle school in Panama (23:02) Jungle was fun sometimes (23:13) Jungle school was important because it helped him learn how to move through the jungle (24:32) Nice climate and firs time he had been outside of the United States (23:34) The people did not speak English and learning to commutate with them was good training for Vietnam (23:50 Most of the instructors were Hispanic and sometimes hard to understanding (24:10) Was pretty relevant to Vietnam (20:41) He also learned how to use maps in the jungle and how to cross streams (24:49) Counted towards his year overseas (25:01) Leaving the States and Arriving in Vietnam He returned to the States at Charleston, South Carolina, had five days to get to San Francisco, and spent two days at home (25:18) Had a great time at home, felt better then when he left the US the first time (25:30) Did not know he was going to Jungle school (25:48) His father cried at the airport which made him uncomfortable (25:25) This time they were all smiles (26:00) He felt like he was going to make it (26:06) Was in San Francisco for maybe two days (26:17) Arrived at night, and thought the city looked like the Rice-a-Roni commercial (26:59) He was bought drinks by the locals in San Francisco, which surprised him (27:00) They were very supportive of him (27:20) The anti-war movement was active (27:31) �One of the captains he served with at Fort Riley was shot an anti-war rally (28:18 Flew on civilian plane and it was the longest flight of his life (28:22) From San Francisco he flew to Alaska, than to Japan, and the to Vietnam (28:34) Landed in Bien Hoa, was processed there (28:36) Got a dream sheet to pick his assignment He was sent to the 101st after three days in the replacement depot, (29:33) Long Binh was vary stateside like, it was the first time he saw slot machines (29:39) Was flown to the 101st by C-130 (30:05) The further north you went the worse the facilities got (30:33) They could assigned all over, his friend was assigned to the Cambodian border (31:07) He had to go Screaming Eagle training center before he knew what unit in 101st he would be assigned to (31:14) The training was focused on teaching the new soldiers how the 101st operated (31:20) Everyone trained together including officers and enlisted (31:31) They were trained to look out for traps, refresher training, and how to move through the jungle (31:53) They did a road march, but no training patrol bit most the training was focused more on technique (32:05) The training ended after five days and he was assigned to D company 1st Battalion, 506th regiment (32:45) Camp Evans was their base camp (32:57) Platoon Commander When he and Lt. Thompson came they met with the XO and were taken to 3rd Brigade's officers club for the briefing (33:13) The XO said that they were going to be assigned to the best company commander in the battalion (33:47) He found out that there were no other officers at the meeting because they had all been killed (34:01) They joined the company in late May of 1970, in early May the platoon had taken heavy losses at an abandoned fire base called Maureen (34:43) The platoon leader had been killed (34:45) �When he arrived they were a few days from stand down, 2nd Platoon had loss so many men that it was combined with 1st and 3rd platoons (35:14) The commanding officer, Captain Don Workman (nicknamed Ranger), wanted to reorganized the company after stand down. (35:31) After the men came back for the stand down he able to be introduced to the (35:45) He was made the pay officer, and had to roster everyone and pay them in script (36:28) He came across a guy named Dean Finch who was from Fredericktown Missouri which was near where John Smith was born (35:56) He became friends with Finch, who it turned out was in 2nd Platoon (37:12) The stand down gave the company time to get cleaned up, eat decent food, change clothes, and other things they could not do in the field (37:45) They did some training, including zeroing the weapons (37:50) It was mostly a time of rest and realization for the men in the field (38:02) They started to get replacements but not very many, they were understrength when they went to relive another company that was due for R and R, though they were able to return having three platoons (38:30) 1st Platoon guarded the western flank of [Firebase] Ripcord while 2nd and 3rd patrolled, 2nd was about 20-30 men at the time (38:49) Some of the men who were left from the original 2nd platoon wanted to transfer because it was consider a hard luck platoon (39:40) They had been mauled before Maureen (39:11) This lead to shifting of personnel, leading to much of 2nd platoon being new (39:26) In the Field When they flew out of Ripcord, he could not see much because they were in a Chinook, which had no windows (40:02) They did not have any time to get acquainted with area around Firebase Ripcord, though he did get a medic (40:19) He was impressed by how steep the hill that Ripcord was on and which made him think the base could not be take. (40:38) By this time it was June and 2nd platoon began its patrol of the area around Ripcord (40:59) During this time they made no contact with the NVA, they found abandon bunkers but nothing else (41:11) �They were on patrol for one week (41:18) It was good practice for Smith to lead the men without an attacks, helped him get used to leading in the field (41:33) It was physically demanding to patrol in the field for the first, his pack weighed a third as much as he did (41:47) He spent most of his time walking up and down hills (42:20) It gave him time to talk to Ranger, who instilled trust in the unit, though some though he was too gun ho. He was not a joker, he did care about his men. (43:05) 2nd and 3rd platoon operated as one unit, while 1st platoon was operating independently (43:45) Ranger spent his time with the 2nd and 3rd platoons (43:48) He had a platoon Sergeant who was serving on a second tour (44:12) His name was Bustamonte, who was able to help Smith was his first patrol 44:23 He was very calm and was Puerto Rican, spoke with an accent (44:44) Everyone else was relatively new (44:59) They were all kids, mostly draftees (45:20) They were trained through NCO school, but were not experience (46:13 Bustamonte was with them for only two weeks, because he was supposed be with the 4th Division but was reassigned (46:13) After that it was Smith and some inexperienced NCOs (46:47) The most experienced had been there for a month (47:00) Firebase Catherine After leaving Ripcord, they were sent to Firebase Katherine, as the Company was rebuilt (47:26) 2nd platoon were there for about month, managing security, they would get new men every day one or two at a time (47;46) They did repair on the barbed wire outside the base, and tried to improve the defenses (48:03) Did some local patrolling and ambushing (48:16) Ranger grew concerned they were losing their edge (48:21) The troops liked firebase duty, because you had prepared defense against attacks, which you often did not in the field (48:49) They also sleep and ate better, had shelter from the rain. In the field it was hard to sleep in the rain. (49:02) �Any kind of shelter was too dangerous because it could give their position away (49:22) Ranger and Smith wanted to get into the field (49:40) On the firebase there was no drug use to his knowledge, but it was common in the rear (50:21) One of the main reasons that it was too dangerous (50:51) Katherine was some minor attacks, mostly mortar attacked (51:24) One night there was huge explosion, and two guys went missing, still unknown what happened (51:49) They were found dead the next morning, possibilities including sabotage attack or accident, no real proof 52:20 They moved off the firebase shortly after July the 4th , on July 1st ripcord came under a major attack, (53:32) Ranger told them Ripcord came under attack during the normal meeting, Smith did not think much about it (53:53) However each every day the attack continued, which surprised Smith (54:12) Return to Firebase Ripcord They were then moved south of Ripcord (54:32) They patrolled the jungle, reconnaissance in force, which made up most of the action in Vietnam (54:48) That was the opposite of what he envisioned, he thought they would be attacking the enemy at a known position (54:59) He was told how things would be at fort Riley, but it did not sink in (55;26) They were on patrol for about a week (55:40) They still made no contact, which was good because they need the training for all of the new men in the unit (56:03) He felt fortunate that they had not be attacked, he did not want to look for trouble but to ready for trouble went it happened (56:29) They assembled back at Highway 1, after which they returned to Camp Evans, where they were told they were going to be sent to Ripcord (56:51) It was rainy when they arrived at Camp Evans, which delayed their move to Ripcord for a day (57:33) They got the night off, Smith ran the bunker line as favor for friend (57:51) Everyone else had a big party, known as the last supper (58:08) �The 3rd Platoon leader took them into his office told them that they were going to Ripcord where they would see combat (58:45) Smith told his Platoon Sergeant to get the platoon ready, mentally and physically (59:17) Much of combat is mental. You can do everything right and still end up in bad place (59:54) The next day they were dropped off in an LZ (60:21) It was the 17 or 18 of July (60:31) They found bandages and boots around the LZ, showing that something bad had happened (60:58) They stayed closer together then usual, but were able move out without much trouble (61:30) By night they were looking for a defensive perimeter (61:44) After the perimeter was set up they sent out patrols (61:50) The first two or three days nothing happened, they just patrolled looking out for an ambush (62:19) They found more bunkers, but no Vietnamese (62:54) They set up camp on hill, they had to go investigate a cave that was in the hill (63:21) He went into the cave because he did not want to send anyone else, but there was nothing in the cave (63:29) That was the last night they spent patrolling that area, the next day they were moved to a new area (63:23) They restocked got to the LZ and got ready to leave for the new area (64:41) They got mail and Smith found out that his wife was pregnant with their first son (64:54) Fight around the LZ As they approached the LZ in helicopters, the door gunner open fire, because the LZ was hot (66:41) Smith felt vary exposed on the helicopter (66:23) They had to jump of the helicopter, as they hovered five or six feet off the ground, so they hit the ground hard (67:40) This made him disoriented when he hit the ground (67:45) He remembered that his Dad begged him not to go into the infantry, and he thought that he was going to be killed (68:10) But he came to his sense and was able to secure the LZ, the fire on them stopped (68:23) �AS the 3rd Platoon arrived they took more fire, but he could tell how heavy the fire was (69:03) The helicopter his platoon sergeant was on, had to turn around after being damaged, so he arrived with 3rd platoon (69:15) They were getting organized to take nearby high lands when, three NVA walked into their position and were killed by heavy fire (70:25) It was the first time he saw an enemy killed (70:30) He had a lack of feeling, which he thought was strange (70:36) After that it quieted down, and they spent the rest of the day getting organized (70:58) He then led a patrol in the direction that NVA came from, they found freshly moved dirt, but no NVA (71:31) They then secured the hill for 2nd and 3rd platoons, while 1st platoon on the other side of the LZ (72:18) He did not know much what was happening around 1st Platoon, and they were digging in to set up their base (72:45) Around 4 o’clock they heard 1st platoon come under attack, Ranger was nearby so he heard that they were taking causalities (73:10) He was expecting to be sent to reinforced but was sent to secure the LZ so they could land Medevacs (73:45) They had a big LZ, so they could land 2 helicopters, and it was inside the saddle of the LZ making it defensible (74:12) 1st Platoon was withdrawn to the north Hill, with 2nd and 3rd, and Smith saw Lt Thompson who he trained with, who had been wounded (74:34) The whole platoon seemed shocked (74:48) Smith could tell that they had been in harrowing position, and Thompson told him that they had left men behind on the hill (75:03) They went back up the north hill, and Smith was surprised that sleep came easily (75:30) He was so tired that he had hard time staying awake during his shift to stand guard (75:47) They saw enemy movement so Ranger told the medevacs to back off (76:20) Everybody was on edge, but nothing happened ( 76:32) He knew the next day they would have to find the bodies left behind, which they both dreaded and felt obligated to do (77:26) He knew that they were going to have to fight to get there (77:40) �That morning he heard mortar fire, that was moving closer, Ranger tried to call in counter battery fire and Smith told the men to get into the fox holes. (78:20) He was expecting only some light fire, but they took very heavy fire, probably because NVA had an observer watching them (79:41) They had few dead, but many wounded (79:48) Smith was wounded, and the platoon medic was dead, Ranger decide they should pull back to the LZ (80:55) They were getting ready to evacuate the wounded, there was short fight when patrol was sent to retrieve an abandon machine gun but no losses (81:41) They were waiting for medevacs, but they came under attack again, one of the medevacs were shoot down over the LZ (82:31) During came under sporadic attack, but were supported by artily and fighters, so they held there position (83:39) They had lost 25-30 men since being dropped off (83 52) Withdrawal They were exhausted, so they stayed in the same spot, which they were not supposed to do, but there was nowhere else to go (84:28) At this point his morale hit the lowest point because he thought that they were going to get hit hard, but they were withdrawn (85:25) He thought that his unit got a bad rap in Nolan’s book, because they did not quit (85:42) Smith had been wounded in the lower back but could still get around, the wound was minor but he ended up spending 3 weeks in the hospital (86:34) It felt like got hot a baseball, but later on in hurt much more (87:11) They stayed the day, they felt had taken a lot fighting during the two days (87:56) Reinforcements came the same route they did, came from hot LZ but light losses. (88;28) Ranger and Rollison, the new company's [D/2/506] CO, talked and then the perimeter was reinforced (89:27) There was no more heavy fighting (89 33) They were waiting to be extracted, his mind was on the dead left behind, Ranger said to for Smith to get out on the first bird (90:42) He got on the helicopter fine, but another one had shot down and the LZ had to take off due to debris (90:59) �The fourth helicopter was shot down and crashed on the LZ, and killed Ranger (91:34) He founded out how latter when he talked to the helicopter crew (92:48) The First Sergeant told Smith that Ranger did not make it (93:10) Smith told his unit, and then went to get checked out, and was put under hospital care (94:18) He was stripped completely naked, they cut through his uniform (94:35) He was sent to the rear area to recuperate for three weeks (95:34) In the Rear He had find his own transportation to his unit, got on plan to Phu Bai processing center, had to hitchhike to Camp Evans (96:36) The unit though he had been sent back to the States, he stayed with the company for two months, they were moved many different areas (97:53) He got pulled the rear after collapsing, he was moved to being the property book officer, he was in charge keep track of their possessions and doing inventory (98:33) He was part of a security platoon in the rear area where he would stand guard in the rear area (100:17) He had all the problem men from the battalion, and was threatened more than once (100:38) His son was born in early March ( 100:52) He became frustrated with his assignment, and was sent back to the field as part of convoy (101:05) They came around a corner and ran into another group that had been ambushed (101:28) The he replaced an officer who had been wounded when his helicopter had been shot down (102:56) He lived on the firebase, which was safer than in the field (103:23) His job was coordinate air support and was part of the planning for air strikes (104:17) It was not a bad job, but he never got used to the job (104:44) He marked enemy location with White Phosphorous grenades, they then napalmed the spot, which was questionable effectiveness (105: 45) There was problem with drugs, particularly marijuana and heroin, overdoses were common (107:15) He had arrested men for having drugs (107:40) Racial issues were not uncommon, that reflective of problems in the US (108:08) �He had been involved in possible riot suppression back into the US (108:31) They had a party, were a fight had happened leading to a racial fight, while lead to the party being broke up (110:38) There was a lot problems, but he did not see much of it Vietnam, (111:50) He tried reason with men to stop the fights (112:28) Army was deeply divided, though they were not problems in the field, more problems in the rear area (113:48) Return to the US His tour came to end in late spring of 1971 (114:45) He flew back to Kentucky. In his uniform, and did have any problems (115:14 After returning to the US he was reassigned to Fort Campbell, which was near where he went to high school. (115:28) He worked in train center and was promoted to Captain, and stayed there until April of 72 when it was shut down (115:47) It was basic training center, and he went through three training cycles, was there as they began transition volunteer army (117:58) Filled out many reports, was part changing style of basic training away from hazing (118:55) Some all the drill sergeants were Vietnam veterans, but most were not combat veterans (119:32 He was reassign 101st when it came back in April before left army in June, he was involved in recruiting to rebuild the units (121:34) After he left the Army he sold insurance for year did not make money, went work for a brick company, where he stayed (122:34) Was in the reserves but he did not like it, was too much training (122:55) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SmithJ1681V Title A name given to the resource Smith, John (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-10 Description An account of the resource John Smith was born in 1946 in Fredericktown Missouri, he later moved to Tennessee. He joined the ROTC in college, then joined the Army in 1969. He trained at the IOBC at Fort Benning, then at Fort Reilly. He served with the D Company, 1st Battalion, 506th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division, as platoon leader of 2nd platoon, and was involved in the fighting in early July 1970 around Firebase Ripcord. After he was wounded he served as the properties officer, later air coordinator. After returning to the US he was involved in the training base at Fort Campbell, before leaving the Army in June of 1972. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ca91692cd343045d1ac3ff1bb7765e2.pdf 7f5d56a5f52107db4c2137c69a5e74b0 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Lacey Smith Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/19/2012 Runtime: 01:37:30 Biography and Description Oral history of Lacey Smith, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 19, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript LACEY SMITH: I wasn’t a brother or something. I was a cuz. I was a cuz, all right? I was a cuz. I don’t know how it grew out the way it did, but, I mean, we’re cousins and I guess that’s pretty much because of the groups that they -(break in audio) JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Okay, Lacey. Where were we at? Where were we at? We were talking about -LS: About how -- JJ: Oh, we’re still in (inaudible). LS: Developing a coalition and stuff. Yeah, you know, like different approaches to -- JJ: Yeah, we had different approaches. LS: -- the problem, and we never argue and fight. Sometimes (inaudible) one another, but, you know, the cause was still for people in the community, and that’s, I think -- JJ: Yeah, you guys were doing your own thing with the youth. LS: Well, you know -- JJ: We were trying to do our thing. LS: You were doing your thing as far as what you were doing, but -- JJ: What did you think when the People’s Park was taken over? LS: No problem. I went to the festivals and stuff you know what I’m saying? You had the carnival and stuff there, you know, for a whole week and everything. No, I mean, you’re in our corner. (inaudible) on the corner, remember? 1 �JJ: (inaudible). LS: No, there was no problem. [00:01:00] It’s about doin’ things that are positive for the community. I doesn’t have to be down with a particular ethnic group. The community as a whole because, when there’s a mixture, things go good. It’s when you don’t have a mixture, and you don’t want this colored skin there or this particular person there, that’s always a problem because there’s somebody else - “I wanna be with them.” The same as when I came to St. Michael’s. There were people who you can go to their house and feel comfortable ’cause they’ll take you in?, and there were people like, I don’t know how to explain it, “Get that nigger out of my house,” or, “I don’t want my kids hanging out with them, Puerto Ricans, and spics, and stuff like that.” And the first person their daughter married was a boy -- “I don’t want that kid” -- they fell in love with them. And, at one time, now, Halsted was a lot of hillbillies and stuff like that, you know? And they, once again, also -- they may be white in skin, but they’re black as far as their culture and the way they’re raised, and they hung out with us and stuff like that. The same -- they [00:02:00] ate rice and beans, and their daughter married a Puerto Rican or vice versa. Once again -- JJ: So, there was that kind of stuff going on in the neighborhood, or --? LS: Yes, it was goin’ -- I mean, everyone is not prejudiced, and everyone wasn’t. JJ: So, “Get him out of here.” LS: Hey, I ain’t gonna fight ’em. Might as well join ’em. (inaudible). No, and there were other things that united us, drag racing especially. JJ: Oh, yeah, talk about the -- 2 �LS: (inaudible) drag racin’. I had been in a whole bunch of different things, which has made me a better person, once again. JJ: What was the drag racing? Where was that --? LS: Clybourn. JJ: Okay, and how was that? How was that? LS: It was good. You know, we raced the cars (inaudible) Wooly Bully. JJ: Wooly Bully, yeah. LS: Yeah, and we had the car with the -- JJ: Who was the other one? LS: The other car we had? Chances Are, that was us. JJ: Chances Are? LS: Chances Are. That was Wilson’s car, Louie, (inaudible) -- JJ: Okay, so everybody had a car -- different names? LS: Oh, of course. JJ: And then, we went on Clybourn, but how do you -- LS: When we challenge -- JJ: -- (inaudible) it’s against the law? How did you [00:03:00] do that? LS: So, it was crossing the street against the light. All right? Been goin’ drag racing in those -- JJ: Sometimes, there were cops there. LS: And sometimes there weren’t. Okay? And that -- JJ: So, was that --? LS: And that was a sport. That was a good sport. 3 �JJ: So, we had Chances Are, and who else (inaudible)? LS: Well, Wooly Bully was Tucson’s car and everything. People used to come from all around Chicago to show their car. I mean, that was a sport. You know, the best car wins, and next -- JJ: Why did they come to Clybourn? LS: Because Clybourn was a street that went straight down without interference. JJ: It was the factories -- LS: Factories was closed at nighttime, and so was Elston Avenue, and that’s what -excuse me. During the week, you work on the car. You go to work every day, and you check the -- put the new transmission in there or buy the hits for the carburetor and stuff like that. You know, (inaudible). That, once again, was little cliques also. So, we had another community. We had an awful lot of -- JJ: Right, ’cause that was a clique -- wasn’t that mainly [00:04:00] Paragons? LS: No. We had around -- JJ: Imperial Aces too. LS: Well, Louie, myself, Wilson, and Mike, Carmello and stuff like -- I mean, Carmello was (inaudible) -- Angelo. We were all part of that little clique there with Wilson and stuff like that. Then, you had Tucson there, and he had a whole bunch of the guys from the South End, which, at the time, was (inaudible) station on North Clybourn and Halsted. And then, that was a good way of unitin’ people because you got everybody, any color there, had their money and their blood and sweat in their car, and you want to perform, and the place to perform was on Clybourn Avenue on Friday night or Saturday night, and who give a doggone about the 4 �pigment of your skin with that car performing? Unity. You know? And, unfortunately, yeah, it was against the law. It’s against the law in any state, but it still happens. JJ: Yeah, but, I mean, but, usually, it wasn’t bothered. Nobody got [00:05:00] bothered. LS: Well, for a long time, it wasn’t bothered. On Sundays, we took the car out to the track because we had tested it already the night before. But, no, we’ve had some weird thing that have happened to us. No, we’ve had some people that were killed there on the strip there, you know, car rolled or some idiot stood up in front of a car and the car came by, chewed them up. Those things happen, but, as far as the safety aspect of it, it was US 30 or the Grove, you know. But, no, we ran the streets. JJ: In fact, people went to the -- LS: Oh, you know -- JJ: -- drag races. LS: You got hundreds of people, man. It was on Fullerton too, right there, off of Ogden. Yeah, hundreds and hundreds of people. JJ: Hundreds of people out there. LS: Yeah, you know, and people out there -- you run startin’, like, midnight until five, six o’clock in the morning, runnin’ from here down to 51st Street. I mean, it was a thing. JJ: You mean they would drive through the neighborhood with the cars and (inaudible)? 5 �LS: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. JJ: (inaudible). LS: No, you could tell who’s workin’ on a car?. They start it up. “Oh, someone’s workin’ [00:06:00] in the garage.” But, you know, a street machine pretty much -unless you had an exhaust on that where you can drop the headers?, was pretty much for the track-- JJ: What year was this? What year was this? LS: I don’t know. ’66, ’69, something like that. No, when I met up with Tucson, and the guys -- they were already into that, you know? I was just a follower, which also taught me those skills. All mechanics. JJ: Okay, so, you had a car too? LS: No. No. JJ: Did you just kinda work with them? LS: I hung out with the guys there. I learned about cars and so on and so forth like that, and (inaudible). I mean -- JJ: Where did you guys hang out at? LS: By the garages. JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah, right there, off Kenmore and (inaudible). Tucson’s there, you know. Then, we had the one -- Wilson. We were right there on Dayton and Armitage. No, no. Fremont and Armitage. Yeah, Fremont and stuff like that, you know. It’s a little skill, all mechanics and people from the neighborhood came by. They were cheering for you to get the car right. When you get it running, [00:07:00] they 6 �follow you around. (inaudible) some people and stuff. Other kids, you know, they admire you already from bein’ -- once again, leadership, keeping kids positive. And, before you know it, some kid’s graduating out of eight grade, high school, and he’s saved his money up, and he bought himself a car. Okay? So, I mean, everything snowball, but the thing is -- there were people, you know, always try to keep our race, our people, from growing, and that was a way of growing also. Some things you just couldn’t stop. JJ: St. Teresa’s used to throw dances too. LS: Used to throw dances, a few dances at St. Teresa’s also, yeah. Yeah. JJ: ’Cause I remember we used to go there with our cars. LS: Yeah. I mean, those were Model Ts, stuff like that, you know, in those little (inaudible). JJ: Brand new cars. LS: Yeah. Okay. See, that’s when you stay away from ’em. That was the time you stay away from ’em. JJ: (inaudible). LS: [00:08:00] But, you know, that was another learning experience, and -- JJ: But didn’t we do that? It wasn’t there? LS: I don’t think about the stuff like that. I never get involved with stuff like that. But being in the Near North, Lincoln Park area from the time I started there up until the time I married and moved out, which I was -- everybody from the community would then leave. They always would still come back. Come back to hang or you come back to visit, and, for the most part, you’ll find a lot of people that’s 7 �never grew out of the neighborhood. You know, they’re still in the same corner, and they envy you for havin’ a job. JJ: They would move out, but they came back. LS: They move out. They still come back. That’s the hangout. And there were some people -- “Oh, man, you got a job. You think you’re better than us now, huh?” Well, no, you got a family to support. Of course you’re not gonna hang on the corner drinkin’ with your money and roll dice and stuff, you know? And lot of us - I would say a very large percent of us progressed to pick a job in the city. I [00:09:00] think (inaudible), may he rest in peace also. Lot of us grew. We got families and stuff like that, you know? JJ: So, there were jobs in the city that were -- LS: Some people got jobs in the city. Some people got job with corporations and stuff like that. Can’t remember exactly -- [Nestor?], you know, he grew, and he went -- he works in Washington right now for -- I’m not gonna say which government he was with. He works for the government also. JJ: There’s a -- LS: We all grew. JJ: We got a couple governments? LS: Well, you know, there are different -- JJ: You mean different parties. LS: Different departments -- JJ: Different parties. LS: -- of the government, yeah, of the -- and -- 8 �JJ: Homeland security, you’re talking about. LS: No, not home security. I’m not gonna mention the department, okay? But everyone grew out to do things positive, and there are some who weren’t so successful, you know? And either you go with the flow or you don’t, and you can’t sit in the corner, drinkin’ wine your entire life. If you’re in the corner drinkin’ wine from the time you’re 15 years old ’til the time you’re [00:10:00] 50something, it’s definitely wrong. Okay? If you’re living in your mother’s house and you’re 50, something is definitely wrong. Okay? And we find out those people who settle down, you know, marry and have a few kids and stuff, you know, succeeded. All right? And, of course, there are some that didn’t succeed. Like you and I, two or three wives, all right? But no. But, nevertheless, though -- JJ: [Hey, you can’t put that in?]. LS: -- the drive was always there. The drive was always there to keep rollin’. Got you. All right? The drive was always there to do better, and, you know, the thing that also [still would unite?] was still about people. Okay? Although I’m not in the field of social work anymore, you know, if I was going through Cabrini-Green this very moment and I see some of my old kids, which -- I run into them all the time in the neighborhood in Lincoln Square. I’m still called Mr. Smith or Mr. BUILD, or see someone with a kid. They say, “Oh, this is the guy who [00:11:00] helped us when we were doin’ this and that,” you know? “If you were around, you wouldn’t be doin’ like this and stuff.” I told you there were -- I knew this type of person, and be a neighbor and help people. They don’t forget it. Family, individuals that you know, the guys in jail and stuff like this, going to court to 9 �represent them. “You’re in jail again? Okay, here’s my last 20 dollars.” Things like this, you know? Especially with some programs that I was involved in when I worked with youth as an advocate. You know, you represent them along with the parent in court. They don’t forget those type of things. Walter Washington, I seen not long ago. “Oh, man, Mr. Smith,” all this stuff. Joy Smith at the CabriniGreen. (inaudible). He’s now a state trooper, and, I mean, these kids have gone on to be successes, and I feel good, and I see them, and especially if they’re -oh, yeah. I remember -- yeah, used to go play football [00:12:00] at DePaul out on the side. Used to play tag football. Flag football on Saturdays and Sundays. Janice, I see every now and then in Logan Square by the eagle there. She’s still call me, “Mr. Smith.” She hugs me, you know? We call her Peanut Head now, jokin’ around and stuff, and she tells -- I met one of her kids about a month or so ago. JJ: But is that people you worked with when you were working with -- LS: BUILD. JJ: BUILD, okay. LS: Yeah, but, I mean, the Near North community also there at the time. JJ: And BUILD was a program that works with youth, the gang prevention. LS: Gang prevention, street work. All right? JJ: Street work. Street work. LS: And these same kids would know -- like, I remember I used to take kids [at 12:30, 11:50?], something like that, bring ’em up this end of town. “Oh, man. (inaudible) those people, all the --” Stuff like that. And I said, “No, (inaudible). 10 �That’s what a sport is. You go, and you do your best.” And come out, the whole bunch of them turned around in the marriage. They became good friends and stuff like [00:13:00] that. So, sports also do it for almost anything, and it eliminates boundaries. All right? So, therefore, instead of bein’ afraid to come out from Division Street (inaudible) Armitage and Fullerton. I mean, there was no problem because, all of a sudden, they know someone. You have no fear. You’re gonna come here (inaudible), would you? Because you go over there for the purpose of sports. You go there for a seminar. JJ: So, have you seen people change through that sport? LS: Oh, yes. I’ve seen many people -- some of those I mentioned to you. They’ve changed. Maybe in their heart, they may be (inaudible) or whatever it may have been, or the (inaudible), but they grew up to be a man, and me, I’m a man first. What you did 20, 30 years ago, all right? Fine. It’s in your heart, maybe, but you’re not walkin’ around, carrying that pistol. Your purpose is not to go out there and find another Puerto Rican. See what I’m sayin’? Puerto Ricans are not going out, sayin’, “I’m gonna blow me away a white boy,” ’cause a man he has become. “Oh, man, I don’t want my kids with no Black --” You know, as a matter of fact, I can’t [00:14:00] think of too many Puerto Rican families that ain’t got Blacks in ’em, and it’s not so much from the islands that deal with slavery. It’s because, right now, there’s no prejudice that I’ve ever seen, and the mixing was never a problem. So, therefore, you can find a Puerto Rican -- I’m not gonna say Latino overall, okay? I know some Latinos, they got that little thing, but Puerto Ricans, you know, you’re gonna say, “Don’t bring that Black kid home,” or, “I’m 11 �not gonna do this.” You know, they accept. I can’t think of anyone, actually, (inaudible) with their kid. “Don’t do this and that.” I never seen it. We’re a colorful race. Mixing’s no problem. He or she who has a problem with mixing really has a problem because you’re not gonna survive anyplace else outside of where we grew up here. JJ: Growing up in Lincoln Park, what other activities? We mentioned the car races. What other --? LS: Well, car racing was a sport on itself. Boxing. All right? I got boxing, the YMCA. [00:15:00] Saxton and I represent the neighborhood, and we were the neighborhood champions, you know. JJ: Saxton was there? LS: Saxton (inaudible), yeah. Saxton. (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) who else? Who else boxed? LS: Well, Saxon and myself, pretty much. No one else held the classes well. All right? We held it at -- JJ: What about the women? What did they do? LS: Women? Well, you know, even all my work I did, I dealt with males pretty much. The women come along with the sports and stuff. I never really had too many programs for women other than the GED and typing. Okay? Better housing and stuff like that, you know, I never went into anything of that nature. JJ: No, no, I don’t mean that. What I’m trying to say on this is, like, what were some of the women involved in? LS: They were -- 12 �JJ: Not the ones you worked with but I mean just in general -- LS: Well -- JJ: -- in Lincoln Park. LS: -- as far as I can remember goin’ back, you know, I can’t recall women bein’ [involved in?] prostitution. I can’t remember that, or I have no knowledge of 00:16:00 it. Okay? Few drug dealer (inaudible) like that, you know. JJ: Drug dealing? LS: Drug dealing. (inaudible) and so on and so forth like that, but, for the most -- JJ: But not using. Just holding? LS: You know, if you’re doin’ one, you’re pretty much doin’ the other. JJ: So a few -- LS: All right? JJ: But not prostitution. LS: I don’t ever recall that. Now, I’m not gonna say they did not exist, but if it was a low profile, that’s the way it should stay in, okay? But -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Pretty much, you know, just bein’ mothers, I can think of. JJ: Okay. Mothers. LS: Yeah. I’ve seen some women (inaudible), and I could. I seen them (inaudible) and stuff, and sociables. “Look at my man,” you know? But there wasn’t a hell of a lot of that. They were -- 13 �JJ: ’Cause, I mean, they had these women groups like the Imperial Queens, and the Young Lordettes, and what other groups did they have? The Paragons had women always with ’em. LS: Yeah, Lucy and the rest of them, and even some people like that, but you know what? [00:17:00] I don’t recall them being active as far as throwin’ down, you know. They were ladies. JJ: Throwing down. No -- LS: They were just ladies, you know, like no -- JJ: They were just ladies. LS: You know, the identification with them was like we dance ’cause, you know -- and then, the rest of them girls -- remember that? They can get down. And, thanks to them Saxton and I, we were kings of the dance floor also. But as far as doing things other than just bein’ the followers with us, mothers, some became. Others who just the way became lawyers, you know, moved to other states and stuff like that. That’s the role, pretty much, I remember them as bein’. JJ: What do you mean lawyers? They became lawyers? LS: Oh, we have several ladies from the groups that are lawyers or work for -- like, I think -- I’m not sure. I think Lucy Santos. I’m not sure. JJ: Lucy Santos? LS: I’m not sure, but I think so. There’s one other person I can’t think of tip of my head, but I’ve heard that. Okay? [00:18:00] Couple -- my wife Ida, my daughter Judy, her -- JJ: Which Ida are you talking? Not Ida Miranda? 14 �LS: No, no. Ida Miranda -- no, no, no, no. JJ: Did I meet your wife? LS: You probably knew her. Judy? Judy (inaudible)’s wife? JJ: Yeah. LS: Okay, this is her little sister. JJ: Oh, her sister. Okay. LS: Yeah. All right? Her godmother is a policewoman. She’s from the neighborhood, and, excuse me, I don’t remember her name exactly right now. But, you know, we went all directions. I mean, where the grass was green is open field. Our people went there, and apply, and we conquered, which is good. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. Educated people own business and stuff. I think Juan owns a computer company, Juan [Cologne?], which was a Continental also. JJ: Oh, is he still around? LS: Yes, (inaudible). His sister Margaret with the CTA just retired. [00:19:00] Louie Laboy CTA, who just retired also. Luis Ayes, he retired. He’s in Puerto Rico. His -- JJ: Retired as a police? LS: Yeah. Pete Rivera. JJ: What happened with Pete? What does Pete do? LS: Pete -- he’s either in Florida or Puerto Rico. One of the two. I see him -- every now and then, he comes back, and he works with the Board of Election. Okay? 15 �JJ: Beau was a police, and who else? Beau, and who was that other guy, the heavyset one? They were pretty good, the -- LS: Beau just retired from the police department also. JJ: Yeah, he didn’t really bother people, but some other people that were police, and they thought they could just -- LS: I think I know who you’re speaking of. He was thrown off the force. I can’t think of his name right now, but, you know, like I said, doors are open, and we were in [with him?], and we got those jobs, whether it’s for the city, state, private, or whatever. Celso Rivera owns his own security company. Celso, once again, was a Continental also. JJ: Oh, Celso Rivera. LS: Yes. JJ: (inaudible). LS: [00:20:00] Exactly. JJ: I’m supposed to interview him. Do you see him? LS: No, I haven’t seen him in many, many years. JJ: So, he owns his own security --? LS: He owns his own security company, from what I understand. Okay? You know, we are positive people. JJ: And you said doors open up. How did doors open up? LS: Well, doors opened up -- JJ: When did that --? LS: -- because of education, one thing. Common sense is another. 16 �JJ: (inaudible). LS: Right? And the thrive, the thrive to succeed. There’s no such thing as you cannot do or, because you are that, you ain’t supposed to. Well, I think you are supposed to do, but, you know, you try it, and if it’s somethin’ where you can become a lawyer, go to school. JJ: Okay -- LS: All right? JJ: -- so, you’re saying doors open just in general. You don’t -- LS: Doors are there. JJ: You don’t mean that somebody opened the door. LS: Sometimes, someone open the door for you, take the chance of goin’ through, and there are people -- a lot of people don’t want -- everybody can’t be a cook, you know? Why should I be a cook when I can be an attorney? Why should I stay an attorney when I can become a judge? [00:21:00] Okay? And, once you’re in that school thing, you know, there’s a charm to keep going. You got your associate’s, your BA, so on and so forth. I mean, the hunger, and it turns out to be, you know, we got judges on TV. We got councilors. We have (inaudible), people in government. We can always succeed. I mean, it’s because of the individual. It’s not ’cause of the race if people won’t succeed who happen to be of that particular race. All right? And that’s what I mean by doors open, okay? Anyone who just sit back and is comfortable with being whatever is not gonna go very far. You don’t have to be Oscar -- what’s his name? The boxer. I mean, like, the name goes with the person. The person is trying to 17 �advance, and us. Name comes, and their surname is Latino, you know? And that’s a good thing. We should all -- [00:22:00] once again, the mixture. JJ: Okay. Where did you learn all these --? LS: ’Cause I felt then as I do now. Education. Learn it. JJ: I mean through the education. LS: Learn it, and go back, and use it. JJ: (inaudible) or what? I mean -- LS: Well, BUILD was the thing that helped me get that high school and that college education because, you know, like Jim used to tell us, “You can’t show me a certificate and no raise.” And that, in itself, was incentive, you know? So, come show my grades. Okay, fine. It wasn’t he was trying to choke us. He was trying to make a better person of us, and you grow, and the model of that BUILD was, as you progress, there’s young blood -- you know when it’s time to walk and the younger blood come in, and I don’t think of anyone who’s ever come through those doors and left hurting [00:23:00] or happy someone else came through. That was the purpose of bein’ (inaudible), so, when it’s time, you (inaudible) walk, you found something better than 10 dollars a month, as an example, you know, you can go in that direction. Jimmy Concilio, salesman, international, you know. Christie Maduro owns her own company. She’s promoting things. All these people are doin’ their thing, and the sky’s the limit. It’s a matter of what you want. JJ: Where did a lot of the people move to? I mean, I know that some moved to the suburbs or something like that. 18 �LS: I can’t tell you who moved to the suburbs. JJ: And how did you feel that we don’t -- that that place don’t exist no more? LS: What do you mean by that place? JJ: Armitage. LS: I don’t travel through very many times. I don’t drive anymore, and, as far as us being moved out -- JJ: That’s what I’m saying. LS: Okay. Well, you know, [00:24:00] we’ve been moved out a lot of places. Lincoln Park, Humboldt Park. As long as we don’t put into that mortar, we can always move it out ’cause, when you rent, got to go sooner or later. You got to own to be a part of, you know? You have to invest in your community. JJ: Yeah, but, I mean, we did invest. LS: But, still, when people came by, gave you the offer, you ran. How many --? JJ: No, no. I’m saying -- LS: How many from all of us in the groups that we knew bought a house? JJ: Okay -- LS: Or bought a building? JJ: No, no, but you were with the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth. That’s a good point about buying a building, but you were a Concerned Puerto Rican Youth. We were with the Young Lords. People were driving cars. I mean, you said some were lawyers, some were -- LS: They invested in someplace else. JJ: Yeah, but that neighborhood’s not there. You’re saying it was our fault? 19 �LS: Well, I’ll tell you what. Yes and no. JJ: Okay. That’s what -- LS: We didn’t have the knowledge that we should invest [00:25:00] there or we wanted to get the heck out, invest someplace else for a better future. Okay? And that’s what people pretty much did. Now -- JJ: You don’t think they pushed us out? LS: Well, yeah. We were pushed, no. We were always bein’ pushed. JJ: I mean, I don’t want to put words in your mouth. LS: You’re not putting words in my mouth. We were always bein’ pushed all the time, but you know what? Some people are tired of bein’ pushed, and, you know, “I’m not gonna pay this high rent, so I’m gonna pay rent to something that’s mine,” and they went to the suburbs. That’s sensible, in a sense. And so, people, you know, they just want to live a peaceful life, have their kids grow up a peaceful area. Now -- they had to walk on the street and, “My kid got shot,” a drive-by. I mean -- JJ: Was it like that in Lincoln Park? LS: No, but it’s nowadays. JJ: Okay, nowadays, but I’m saying -- LS: Okay? But it’s not in our community. JJ: But, when we were getting pushed out, was it like that? LS: Like, Willy Core’s brother. JJ: Core? 20 �LS: Yeah. Remember? He was shot. They stabbed him to death on [00:26:00] Fremont and Armitage. JJ: What’s his name? LS: Core. Core. Remember? They stabbed him. JJ: Oh, Core. LS: Yeah. All right? No, that was all part of us not bein’ part of the community if you may recall back. Okay? But, I mean, there were all this kind of -- JJ: That’s one death. That’s one death. LS: Yeah, I mean, but that one was one too many. Okay? That was a force away because the comments they made afterwards was (inaudible) you know. JJ: Who made the --? LS: The gentleman killed him. I don’t remember the gentleman’s name. I wasn’t there when it even happened. Came up afterwards, but, you know, that was a thing against Puerto Ricans exactly where it was? okay? No -- JJ: You mean he got killed because of -- LS: It was something he did wrong. The guy ran. The guy caught him, and he stabbed him to death. I think it was behind the building over there or something. I don’t remember the whole thing. Let’s just go on, okay? JJ: That’s Core. That’s Core, okay. LS: I don’t remember the whole story. JJ: I wasn’t sure. LS: All right? But, you know, we are [00:27:00] a race not always to be challenged, but it has to be challenged because the sky’s the limit, and we should always try 21 �to reach it. You know? And there’s nothin’ wrong with that, and the way to that, once again, is education and being educated, but, as you’re being educated, teach. JJ: So, we had one death, Core. LS: Well, we’ve had -- JJ: And you’re saying the neighborhood was gang-infested because of that, or --? LS: Well, at that time, there was identification with belonging to so-called gang. Okay? But that particular instance there, I wasn’t there for it, and I don’t wanna go any farther because I’m not gonna blow it -- proportion. JJ: Okay, what I’m asking is do you still feel that, because of the gang and all that, that’s why we left? LS: I don’t think it’s because of the gang. I think of the person that’s being prejudiced. I don’t remember anyone tell me about gang. He was just a comment [00:28:00] racist cop. He made it after he killed him. All right? And -- JJ: Oh, you’re talking about that one incident. LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. LS: Okay? And, no, we -- JJ: A white person did that? LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And he was from Lincoln Park. LS: He was right there, from the bar across the street on the corner. JJ: Oh, that happened in a bar. Is this a bar fight? 22 �LS: No. Something he had done, and the guy chased him out of the bar. JJ: Okay. He did something, but it was at the bar -- LS: Yeah, but he didn’t have to kill him. JJ: Okay, but I’m talking about the neighborhood. LS: The neighborhood itself at that time was -- JJ: They kicked us out of the neighborhood. LS: Oh, yeah. JJ: I’m saying that, but what are you saying? LS: Look at it this way. Actually -- JJ: I’m putting words in your -- LS: Yeah. When I settled down my wife, I didn’t put roots there because I couldn’t afford it. We went a long ways from 50 to 75 dollars a month in rent. The rent jumped big. That’s why, if you didn’t own somethin’ and kept it up, you’re gonna lose it one way or the other. Taxes or the city, [00:29:00] or your house was bein’ fixed, you know. I mean, one way or the other. So, it didn’t really hurt for us so much to move some people, all right? But, you know, a lot of us who moved from this neighborhood went to Humboldt Park, and there are people who went beyond Humboldt Park, and that’s understandable as far as I’m concerned ’cause you want to better yourself, your family, (inaudible). Each person should want their kids growing up to be better (inaudible), and that’s why I think it still should be for those who decide to stay there, rent there, stay right there if you can afford to. And it’s hard to afford to stay in this community, and education will only help so far there. You got to have (inaudible), you know? And lot of people 23 �don’t have it. You got to remember, we are poor people. We are a poor race. Okay? I don’t think many of us are born with spoons in our mouths. Can’t think of any of us, [00:30:00] as a matter of fact, you know? And it’s a changing community, just like other communities are changing, and he or she who is not financially stable or that so-called middle class they (inaudible) ’cause they’re middle class, man, or they had those dollars for the middle class -- I didn’t make that kind of money either. But they don’t talk about lower. They talk about middle. Okay? And I’ve had it rough pretty much my whole life. (inaudible) and stuff. People will think you’re rich. Well, you know what? I am rich. I got this. I’m rich. I can think. Rationalize things. And God gave me this to use, and my parents put me through school to have that. I am rich. I’m not rich like that, though. And that can’t be taken away from you, man, really. Money come and go. This is memories. (inaudible). [00:31:00] I got the big ones up there, like the next person does, that you retain. JJ: Memories. What kind of memories? I mean, you know what I’m saying? LS: I remember all kinds of -- I remember a lot of good things, and I remember a whole lot -- probably more -- bad times, and I have been -- JJ: Which one do you want to start with? The good or the bad? LS: Well, we’ve talked about that, pretty much, though, and I don’t wanna repeat it because -- JJ: Okay. LS: All right? I want to move on. JJ: Okay. What are you moving on to? 24 �LS: This is Friday, may I remind you? JJ: You’re using up my brain. LS: Done that already. All right? But no, I’ve talked about pretty much the good and the bad as far as that goes, you know? JJ: Yeah, what --? LS: I have covered a lot of this, you know? JJ: We’re gonna need a few more minutes (inaudible). LS: We? When did we become friends? I thought we’re Puerto Rican. (laughter) JJ: [00:32:00] So, give me some final thoughts. LS: Final thoughts is -- JJ: What’s the most important thing we got to -- to let the future -- you know, just to get an idea-- LS: The future should be love your brother and love your sister. In other words, live and let live, but be a part of that livin’, and, when it comes to heritage, stick as close by home as you possibly can so your kids can see you’re there for them. When a kid does not feel he has a family at home, the next step is the street, and we know that for a true fact. JJ: All right. Let me ask you -- we went different directions. I mean, we basically were always together, but some of us went different directions. LS: You went to the bar on this corner, I went to the bar on that corner? JJ: (inaudible), but I’m talking about -- some of us fought it, the thing with the city hall, and some didn’t, and whatever, that kind of stuff, but we [00:33:00] were all from the same neighborhood. 25 �LS: Sure. JJ: And so -- LS: It was progress to us one way or the other. JJ: We cared for our neighborhood. We were proud of our neighborhood. Would you agree, or no? LS: No. I cared for the neighborhood. I came back to teach once again. I came back to help bring more kids up. All right? And there were some people that just didn’t give a doggone one way or the other, and they’re (inaudible) of sucking things out the community with them. If I was able to help provide them with something or assistance, yes, but as far as me owing them anything, I think they had the same opportunity in life as I had. Maybe not everything with education to go to a private school and stuff, but, as far -- if you’re street-wise, you’re supposed to be smart enough to know, get off the corner. Don’t be shootin’ up dope. Don’t be trying to sell dope. Don’t look for the fast lane out. Make something of yourself to represent your race. Simple. [00:34:00] That’s it. JJ: That’s it? LS: Yes, sir. JJ: Okay. LS: That’s it. JJ: That’s it? All right, that’s it. (inaudible). All right. (break in audio) P1: On completion of the interview, recording (inaudible) the recording belongs both to Grand Valley State University -- 26 �(break in audio) JJ: Say something. Testing, one, two, three, whatever. LS: Testing, one, two, three. The day is October 19, 2012. JJ: Okay, that’s -- (break in audio) JJ: Okay, Lacey, if you can give me your name and -- LS: A little background? JJ: -- where you were born or what you were -- LS: Okay. My name is Lacey Smith. My early youth years is from the Southwest Side, I guess you would say. (inaudible) Taylor Street there, the Jewtown area. And I -- JJ: Maxwell Street, Jewtown area. And, okay, when were you born, about? What year? LS: I’m born in the mid-’40s. JJ: Oh, the mid-’40s? Okay. LS: Yeah. Okay? JJ: And you were born here in Chicago? LS: Yeah, and I found out, you know, like -- JJ: So, you said you were from [00:35:00] -- you call it Jewtown? LS: Well, Jewtown was not that far away from us, okay? I lived off the Loomis area, south of Roosevelt Road, then the projects. JJ: Oh, Loomis. Oh, by the projects. LS: Yeah. And we moved over there, and -- 27 �JJ: So, in the projects, and what -- you said Loomis, but what other the street? Was it Jackson, or --? LS: No, no. The migration of Puerto Ricans first coming to Chicago were pretty much around Jackson and Loomis, around that area. Okay? JJ: Okay, Jackson and Loomis. Okay. LS: You know, and our family, we lived south of Roosevelt Road there. As a matter of fact, 13th and Loomis is where our family lived in the projects there, and we went there in the late ’50s. All right? And transferring from the school I came from on the Far West Side, I went to Medill Elementary School, which, after a while -- went from there to St. Joseph’s. St. Joseph’s -- JJ: Oh, you went to St. Joseph’s? LS: Yeah. St. Joseph’s [00:36:00] closed after my first year or so there, and we went to Holy Family, and, attending Holy Family, we found out a little bit more about more about prejudism, prejudism, prejudism. As a youth -- JJ: What do you mean, prejudism? Prejudism, what do you mean? LS: Well, Holy Family was a primarily -- a white school. Okay? JJ: This is St. Joseph’s? LS: No, St. Joseph was right in the middle of the projects there, and, whether being Puerto Rican or being Mexican, only way you knew what that meant was you was white as a sheet. Otherwise, everyone was the same. All right? But, nevertheless, you would see the Blacks pickin’ on a couple of Mexican kids who were in school, and, you know, as far as Puerto Rican, they knew of, like, the 28 �Laboy family and stuff like that, myself. We were all from the same area. Louie Laboy, his brother José, and the rest of them. (inaudible). JJ: Oh, Louie Laboy? LS: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. JJ: He was from Loomis? LS: Yeah. They lived on 14th, right there off of Hastings in the projects, right across from the school. That’s how we met. JJ: ’Cause they later lived in Lincoln Park, right? LS: [00:37:00] They moved from there up to the North Side, and I think they lived on the lower part of Sedgwick. I’m not really sure. JJ: They’re right around Sedgwick? LS: All right? I remember, though, before he went to the service, he did live right there, behind the old bank there, off Ogden there, and they put the townhouses through that. JJ: Right, I remember Ogden. Yeah, that was a big -- LS: Yeah. Okay. You know, and -- JJ: So, Ogden, and that’s by Madison, isn’t it? LS: No. Ogden -- right here by North Avenue, down the street from the -- JJ: Oh, by North --? LS: Yeah, by the YMCA there, the Ogden YMCA. JJ: Oh, that’s where they lived? LS: They lived not too far away from that, yeah, you know, and that’s how I -(inaudible) the boys, I met them in the projects there. We’re third, fourth, fifth 29 �grade and so on like that, so that’s back -- even probably like ’55 or so. So, we migrated to the North Side. The rest of the Puerto Ricans (inaudible), and I say, after Puerto Ricans left, I live, work, and survive for the Latin and Puerto Rican cause. Okay? So, therefore, (inaudible) identification of me, I am always gonna say I’m Puerto [00:38:00] Rican, and I always will. Wife, kids, environment, jobs, everything that way. Okay? And -JJ: What was your mom and dad’s name? LS: My mom’s name is Lucille. JJ: Lucille? LS: Yeah. My father’s name is Lacey, which I’m after. JJ: Lacey? LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay, but were they born in Chicago too, or no? LS: My mother’s from Mississippi, and my father, of course, is from Puerto Rico. Okay? So, I go, you know, on the lower side of, as they say, you go with your father’s -- JJ: So, your father was Puerto Rican? LS: My father’s Puerto Rican. Okay? But there’s this long story behind that, and also as far as my last name, okay? But, in the interim of growing up on the North Side, I found there was more prejudice up there than there was on the Lower Side, while living in projects because -- JJ: Now, did you learn Spanish from your father? LS: Spanish is something you had to pick up as you went along -- 30 �JJ: As you went along. LS: Because, in the household, that wasn’t a main language as far as having it mixed and stuff like that. No, it was pretty much Black always and everything, you know? And, for the few family members that -- they’d come to our house and stuff -- either [00:39:00] were afraid to come to the projects or, you know, they were on the outside. So -- JJ: Well, your father spoke Spanish in the house. LS: Not very, very -- no. To whom? All right? So, my interest of knowing the other side -- I grew up thirsty for finding out cultures, language. JJ: Right, ’cause you grew up with Puerto Ricans all your life, right? LS: All my life, pretty much, but the mixture in the projects -- there was pretty much Black, okay? And the only time -- JJ: You got the same problem I got (inaudible). LS: Well, my biggest problem was, like, when crossin’ Taylor Street, I would get my tail kicked by Italians for being Black, and, going back across Roosevelt Road, going to the projects, I got my butt kicked for being Latin, you know? And the most time there we were really blending in with the Blacks there was because it was sports. And, as a matter of fact, Mingo was from the same area, and so was Joe [Ramos?] also. JJ: Oh, Mingo’s from there too? LS: Down from the project area also. JJ: From the projects over there by Taylor? 31 �LS: No, south of it. In the middle of South Roosevelt Road there, [00:40:00] between Roosevelt and 15th Street. JJ: Right, okay. Those (inaudible). LS: Okay? And -- JJ: That’s where Mingo came from? LS: (inaudible), yeah. And -- JJ: So, the Laboys were from there? LS: The Laboys were from the [doghouses?] there. We’re in the row houses there, and Joe [Ramos?] was on my street. (inaudible) was there, but we all met up coming to the school. JJ: Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans there at that time? LS: Oh, yeah, you because, in the ’50s and ’60s, low-income -- JJ: This was early ’50s? LS: Mid-’50s, something -- yeah. Low-income housing always. Rent was like 45, 55 dollars a month, and they put -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. I think Mingo was on 15, 10, something he lived in. I’m not sure. So, he was in the high rise, and we’re from the lower part of the projects. Anyway, we really didn’t unite until after we were up in the North Side. Okay? And -- JJ: So, you didn’t know each other then. LS: We knew each other, but we weren’t tight. JJ: You weren’t united. 32 �LS: Yeah. You know, we went to school together. Once in a while, we’d play in the schoolyards at lunchtime and stuff like that, but, as far as hangin’, no, we didn’t do. Okay? Our hangin’ became -- JJ: Now, was that the only place you grew up at when you were [00:41:00] younger? LS: Pretty much, as I can remember. That’s where my independency, some would call, came after four, fifth grade. You know, you can go places, and the parents wouldn’t all that worry about you except for, being in the projects, there was always a problem because you had the tall houses, the flat houses, the doll houses, and that created a problem within itself. There were times you can’t turn that corner. You can’t leave the block, and that’s the way we were, so, therefore, seeing some of your friends after school was almost impossible. School was the place that you met one another. All right? But, for those of us or them who moved away, we saw each other in another neighborhood, community. We were glad to see one another, and, therefore, that gave us that unity. All right? And that occur -- JJ: Was this before the university was there? LS: Oh, the university was part of the thing that took a lot of the people out of the community ’cause they were starting to build it [00:42:00] by that time, so it displaced a whole lot of people. JJ: So, what do you mean? LS: The expressway came through, first of all, to take people’s houses, and the university came through, took houses. JJ: What do you mean? 94? 33 �LS: Hmm? JJ: 94? That expressway? LS: 94 came through, yeah. JJ: So, where did people drive before? LS: There was no expressways coming through there. There weren’t any expressways at all coming -- 94, none of that stuff was there. Expressways were a new thing coming through Chicago. JJ: You’re talking about 1950, then. LS: I’m talking about in the mid-’50s. There was no so-called named -- Eisenhower was being built -- JJ: Oh, the Eisenhower -- LS: -- (inaudible) -- JJ: Oh, the Eisenhower. LS: -- was being built, and the Dan Ryan thereafter was connected with it. JJ: Okay, but it was the Eisenhower that wasn’t built. LS: Eisenhower, I believe, was pretty much in place, and I could be wrong about this, but I remember the most about the Dan Ryan going through. JJ: Okay, the Dan Ryan, the 94. LS: Yeah. I remember the most about that because -- JJ: So, that was being built. LS: Yeah, that was being built, you know, [00:43:00] and, at the same time that was going through, U of I also had the campus bein’ built there also. JJ: So, did that divide the neighborhood? 34 �LS: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It sure did, no, because, for those Latins who live east of Halsted had no place to go, so they had to relocate, and, for the Blacks -- JJ: Oh, so, the expressway -- there were Latins living there. LS: Oh, yeah. There was Latins in there, all the way -- going up by -- I would say as far as Jackson, going up pretty much there. All right? On that side. We still have some family homes and stuff over there. JJ: So, they lived east of Halsted. LS: They live east of Halsted. They live west of Halsted. They live right there on Taylor Street. They live on Morgan -- JJ: On Halsted? Right around Halsted? LS: It was scattered. Everyone was pretty much scattered. JJ: Okay, so -- LS: But, you know, the main location was pretty much down Jackson. JJ: Jackson was the main street? LS: Yeah, pretty much. Latinos were there and everything. All right? JJ: ’Cause they used to go down Madison, though, [00:44:00] so Madison was -- LS: Madison area, as a matter of fact -- speaking of Madison stuff -- JJ: You said down Madison, but they meant Jackson too. LS: Madison, Jackson, all that same area. Adams and stuff. That was a real, strong, pretty much, Black and -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. You know, as a matter of fact, I can still think -- JJ: This was in the mid-’50s. 35 �LS: This was the ’50s, yeah. That was -- JJ: So, that was Black and Latino. LS: Yeah. There were those -- JJ: And there was no expressway at the time. LS: There was no expressway. The expressway was comin’ through, and this -- JJ: And that divided up and displaced people. LS: That displaced people altogether, you know? It wasn’t so much divided us because that area was predominantly Black, as it was, the Italian side was still pretty much as it was. JJ: Where was the Italian side? What area? LS: Well, Taylor Street there. Flournoy. Harrison was pretty much mixed, and Lexington and stuff like that. That’s where, pretty much, the Italians were. All right? They really didn’t go across Roosevelt Road. They stayed in that little area right there, goin’ by Morgan, Aberdeen, back to Halsted. In between the Blue Island Street there, [00:45:00] which no longer really runs that far. Racine. In that area right there, you know, and the Pompeii School, which is no longer in existence, but that was the area, and, pretty much still, now, somewhat is. All right? Although they pretty much moved out much farther west. And, as I said, you know, goin’ -- JJ: Where were the Mexicans? LS: Mexicans were pretty much goin’ farther southwest, 18th Street. JJ: Oh, they were 18th. LS: 18th Street, and they went down to Halsted, and they went -- 36 �JJ: You said they were on Taylor too. LS: There were some, but there weren’t a whole, whole lot. JJ: But there was Puerto Ricans then. LS: There was a mixture on Taylor Street one time, pretty much, you know, and -- JJ: ’Cause I know they had a Spanish Mass at St. Francis. LS: St. Francis of Assisi’s Church still stands today. That was always Mexican church. All right? You had your Spanish -- yeah, right. Holy Family had -- I guess you would say the majority of [00:46:00] Anglo. When we started to go there, that was a little bit of a problem ’cause there was the bleedover, pretty much. And then, the Latinos were kicked to the curb, pretty much, especially for Puerto Ricans, for sure. Okay? Mexicans were already pretty much accepted, but, being Puerto Rican, it was like saying, like, this was poison in your drink. Okay? And we were treated different. In other words, you know, we have different cultures. Okay? And that was something that divided us also. So, you pick and choose who you’re gonna be, pretty much, with, you know? JJ: Okay, so that’s important. The neighborhoods were segregated by culture. You know, divided -- LS: By force. JJ: Divided by culture. LS: By force. Culture -- Latinos -- still in the mix with Latinos and stuff, but, in between there, before Puerto Ricans were becoming so-called Mexicans, which a lot of people -- and even now -- don’t know the difference between a Mexican 37 �and a Puerto Rican or Cuban, [00:47:00] and, listenin’ to ’em arguing, I would know by dialect, pretty much. Everybody was called Mexican, okay? JJ: Okay, at that time. LS: And you could never differentiate who or what. Okay? Blacks would call you all Puerto Rican. We were kinda using spics. JJ: Okay, so they meant there were a lot of Mexicans, but it was mixed, you’re saying. LS: Mexicans were the majority, just like 18th Street is today. Okay? Anything going the other side of the (inaudible), which meant from 15th Street going down back to 26th, was Mexican. Okay? JJ: Okay. From 15th Street down? LS: Yeah, because 14th Street was dividing where the Blacks would go, all right? So, comin’ back from Jewtown, back to Ashland, section was all Black. The projects were there, which were just being built in the late ’50s. Okay? The schools -- JJ: So, the other side of the project was Mexican. LS: South. JJ: So, actually, 18th Street, there was still -- basically, that was there -- LS: [00:48:00] From the beginning. JJ: -- for a long time. From the beginning. LS: From the beginning pretty much, as far as I know. Okay? And, as I said, after St. Joseph’s School was closed, well, those of us who went to that Catholic school were automatically going to Holy Family. JJ: What year did you go to St. Joseph’s? 38 �LS: I don’t actually recall exactly, tell you the truth. Exactly, no. Late ’50s. JJ: Oh, late ’50s. LS: Late ’50s, yeah. Late ’50s, it was, all right? And -- JJ: Now, there was Puerto Ricans living around there. LS: Yeah. As I said, (inaudible) -- JJ: In the projects. LS: In the projects. (inaudible) family from there -- I mean, (inaudible). I mean, they lived in the projects. JJ: Okay, but they came from Roosevelt too. LS: What do you mean by “came from Roosevelt?” JJ: I thought they came from Roosevelt. LS: They lived in the projects from day one. JJ: Oh, those projects. LS: The projects I lived in, the same -- I lived in the Robert Taylor. JJ: Oh, you’re talking about Robert Taylor. LS: Robert Taylor. Okay? Robert Taylor, which was [00:49:00] called ABLA Homes. You had the seven stories, you had the fifteen stories, and they’re row houses, so that was the projects in between Ashland and Halsted and from Roosevelt -well, after they put the ABLA Homes there, you would pretty much say from Taylor Street back to 15. JJ: ABLA Homes? LS: Yeah, that was for three or four story houses. All right? That’s where Jane Addams, I think they call them. 39 �JJ: Oh, Jane Addams. LS: Jane Addams, yeah, and then, on the other side, south of Taylor there, Racine, they’re called the Cabrini, all right? Projects. Okay? Not the Cabrini-Green, but the Cabrini. Mother Cabrini, after the saint. So, that was pretty much, you know, where we were. We didn’t hang out as groups or any things like that. We was pretty much scattered, but we were young. Really, I don’t think I really knew much more about being called Puerto Rican and spic and stuff until we actually -probably might be [00:50:00] my eighth grade or so, perhaps, but one thing I would never forget -- JJ: And what school were you -- then? LS: I was in Holy Family. JJ: Holy Family? LS: Yeah. JJ: Now, Holy Family’s on the West Side? LS: Holy Family’s right next door to St. Ignatius. JJ: I don’t know where St. Ignatius is. LS: Okay. Main Street. Roosevelt. JJ: Main Street, okay. Roosevelt. LS: Okay? And goin’ to Blue Island, there. Okay? To this very day, I can never forget how hard they made things for -- JJ: That community was there for a while there. That’s the community they said was there from the ’40s, the Puerto Rican community there. 40 �LS: The Puerto Rican community was Jackson. All right? They went across in the area right there. All right? But, when the university came, anything that was Latino there lost out. Lookin’ from -- JJ: So, from Jackson south. LS: Jackson is pretty much south. JJ: Right, but Jackson goes east and west. LS: Jackson goes east and west, but you have Monroe, Adams -- JJ: But then you had the highway. You didn’t have the highway. LS: The highway is what [00:51:00] dispersed everyone, pretty much. JJ: So, where the highway is, the Eisenhower, that was Puerto Rican? That’s what you’re saying? LS: There was Latinos there. It was a very good mixture. Very good mixture. All poor. Okay? No one there was really, really rich. All the poor. Blacks, Latin, and a few whites. Okay? But the thing I will never forget is from leaving from St. Joseph, going into Holy Family there, I had a very, very hard time. You know, I’m not a real big smiler. Never have been. Okay? But I recall how prejudiced the nuns were, and it’s hard to believe somewhat, you know, people of the robe being prejudiced. They do exist. High school, preschool. JJ: But, I mean, did they say something to you, or --? LS: Say something -- you were treated horrible. I remember how I was kept after school, how, on the weekends, I was given a thing called JUG. [00:52:00] That was where they made you write 500 times a sentence on the board, so you left school Friday night until you returned Monday morning, that was a whole lot of 41 �work you had to do. All right? But I would never forget the time -- I don’t recall just what was said, how it was, but a nun smacked me with the old desk in the floor, and I flew a couple rows down. Okay? And I went home and told my parents. My parents came back. The nun was very upset. You know, “He doesn’t smile enough. He doesn’t do this enough.” But my work was always done. I was never a problem child. My sister got the same treatment, and several other families, the Bluestars, the Mazes, a whole bunch of us who went to St. Joseph’s, you know? And prejudism, I mean, is somethin’ that you learn automatically because there was a thing about Blacks and white. Even my friends, Raviolas. Raviolas. They lived on Racine there and Roosevelt, up top on the third [00:53:00] floor there. JJ: Raviolas? LS: Raviola, yeah, which I still see, the friends of mine. They were a Mexican family, and, you know, how they used to treat them -- it just seemed that those of us who went from St. Joseph over there, who weren’t accepted, (inaudible), like -- JJ: Now, you went to St. Joseph’s from -- LS: I went from St. Joseph’s to Holy Family. JJ: Okay. So, this must have been a different St. Joseph’s ’cause there’s a St. Joseph over by Orleans. LS: Yes, that’s totally different. JJ: That’s a different -- okay. LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, this St. Joseph was on what street? 42 �LS: 13th and Loomis. JJ: 13th and Loomis. LS: Right across the street from my house. JJ: I got you. That’s where I was -- LS: Okay. Yeah. And they closed that down, you know, so there -- JJ: Was there a mixed school? LS: We had somewhat of a mixture. We had Puerto Ricans there. We had a few Mexicans and stuff who live in the community and the projects. That’s a very poor area. So, when [00:54:00] they gave you places in the projects, you know, they gave the Latins there, and the Puerto Ricans and the Mexicans there, or poor, and you’re in a Black community. So, therefore, those parents who wanted so-called have their kids have a better education went to St. Joseph’s, and, after leaving Medill, and my family (inaudible) to pay the tuition for us to attend there, that’s where we ended up goin’. From far as I can remember, I liked it. I wanted to become an altar boy. JJ: You were an altar boy? LS: I wanted to become an altar boy. I never became an altar boy. You know, and you would stay after school, and (inaudible) races and stuff like that (inaudible) and stuff. It was very nice, but the difference came when we went to Holy Family. Holy Family -- it was like pick on me day every day. I still recall in the fifth grade, when they flunked me, you know? [00:55:00] And my test grades were good. Lot of things were good, but what was real, real strange about it was like when they had built a new school and took us out of the old school there, and 43 �I’m in class, trying to look at my other peers and classmates in the next grade up, and myself and two other families stayed right there, but the real, real strange thing -- and this (inaudible) to my parents and to the school. Why were they held back when, each time a question’s asked, they’re the ones that raise their hands? And the answer they came up with -- you know, it was our attitudes. Okay? With me, was because I never really smiled, and my parents went against it. JJ: So, they beat you up because -- LS: Oh, beat me. I got smacked around, stand in the corner, stay after school. On the weekends, I used to get the JUG work, myself, the Maze family [00:56:00] kids. I can’t think of every other -- Michael Perchon, some other kids right there, and one other family. I can’t really recall the name, but, you know, there were certain people that you can just see our names were just as popular as bein’ bad as the name of the school was for bein’ popular, you know? And that’s the way things went pretty much up until I graduated from that school. JJ: And what year did you graduate about? LS: ’62, ’63. Yeah. And, after leavin’ that school, I was trying to get into Ignatius on hardship, but we just couldn’t afford the tuition. Ignatius was a very expensive school. Okay? So, from there, after the first semester or so, I ended up going to St. Michael’s, which was a -- JJ: So, you moved to Old Town? LS: No. I went to school. My family still stayed there. JJ: Your family still stayed there? 44 �LS: Yeah. JJ: All right, by Loomis? LS: Yeah. My mom stayed there almost up until she died 15, 20 years ago. [00:57:00] But St. Mike -- JJ: Did she own the house? LS: No. You don’t own the house in the projects. You know better than that. JJ: Oh, that’s right. It was the projects. The projects. LS: No. When we moved there, it was like 55 dollars a month for rent, and, when my mom finally moved out to a senior citizen home much farther south, and she had the grandkids and stuff there, they charged her like 400-something bucks a month for rent. That’s a long ways from 55 dollars. JJ: But when the university came, you know, a lot of people moved out then. LS: Well, yeah. They were displaced because of the university, so, therefore, they went farther north, south -- JJ: But you stayed living there. LS: They didn’t take us out of the projects. The projects didn’t change. JJ: Right, the projects stayed there. LS: Yeah, the projects -- they didn’t move anybody out of the projects. I mean, the projects were there (inaudible) housing and stuff like that. JJ: Are they still there, the projects? LS: They’re still there with the exception of -- I guess, a decade or so back, they rebuilt them. Okay? But they’re still projects. JJ: Oh, they’re still projects. 45 �LS: They’re still projects. Okay? JJ: Okay. They’re still low-income? LS: I don’t know that for sure. Okay? You know what? I’m gonna say no, and the reason I’m gonna say no is because my baby sister is [00:58:00] in one of those - right across from Hill Street, where the Hill Street Blues -- there’s Maxwell Street Station just across there, and her rent is humungous, okay? But, like I said, we moved there in the projects in the ’50s. I think our rent was like 45 dollars a month. My sister pays (inaudible). My mom, once she had the grandkids, and then the apartment where my sister and I were raised there, the rent was like 400-something bucks. JJ: So, you went to St. Michael’s. Did you know Carmen Trinidad? LS: Well -- JJ: Carmen Rivera? LS: All your family and stuff pretty much knows (inaudible) we hung out and stuff. JJ: Did you know Carmen? LS: We all hung out. All your family (inaudible) over there and stuff. You know, and even -- and I became a Continental. You guys had your thing with the Young Lords, Continentals, the Rebels, the Imperial Aces, the Paragons, so on and so forth. JJ: What group were you in? ’Cause everybody was in a group, right? LS: Yeah, yeah. Continentals. JJ: You [00:59:00] were in the Continentals? LS: Yeah, and Danny, José, Jimmy, stuff like that, (inaudible), yeah. 46 �JJ: (inaudible). LS: You know, we were all -- JJ: So, did you move in that area at all, or you were just --? LS: No, I was still livin’ at my mother’s house. JJ: You just hung around there? LS: Yeah. No, I -- JJ: So, you would take the bus every day? LS: Every day, I take the Number 37 bus from Taylor and Loomis all the way to the North Side, every single day. JJ: To Halsted? LS: Hmm? JJ: Taylor and Loomis? LS: Taylor and Loomis. I wait -- JJ: At that turn? LS: Well, that turn was at Polk Street (inaudible) you’re thinkin’ of. The Taylor bus went down to Polk and turned. They came out again. They took (inaudible) by Chicago, and then they turn -- they get off Orleans, and then turn again (inaudible), and they went -- drop us at North Avenue. Okay? And the thing was -- JJ: So, you went to St. Michael’s. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, what years were you there? LS: I went all four years to St. Michael’s. 47 �JJ: All four years there? LS: Yeah. You know -- JJ: Did you graduate? LS: Yes, sir. My parents wanted me to have a -- JJ: So, what was the population then at St. Michael’s? LS: [01:00:00] Well, at St. Michael’s, the population started out to be -- just prior to us goin’ there was pretty much predominantly all white. And so, when the Latinos and Blacks went there, it’s a big change, and I still remember [Brother Dunne?] -my parents came to interview, and they told us, you know, that too many Blacks aren’t attending school, and they hadn’t graduated from there, and they hoped to see me graduate. A good selling point. JJ: Okay. So, what year was this? LS: ’62, ’63. JJ: ’62, ’63. In the school itself, you didn’t have that many Latins? LS: Oh, no. JJ: But, at Sunday Mass, you had Latins there. LS: Well, I couldn’t tell you that because, on Sunday Mass, it wasn’t mandatory for us to attend. High school, things changed. Okay? It wasn’t like grade school, (inaudible). High school’s different. You didn’t have to show up, period. You know, you went to your own parish, pretty much, even if you’re with the church, but -- JJ: But I’m talking about, like, the Caballeros de San Juan. You didn’t see them? None of those? 48 �LS: [01:01:00] No. No, no. Them (inaudible) Knights of Saint John, you know, we met them -- JJ: ’Cause they were on the weekends. They would come on weekends. LS: Yeah. Come across (inaudible) and social events and stuff throughout the neighborhood, which I became a part of later on in years, you know? And, while I attended St. Michael’s, the thing that I think that got me goin’ was what really -overall really made me as a person in the community and a job in my life, pretty much, was basketball. So, I put a lot of time into basketball. You know -- JJ: For St. Michael’s? You played for St. Michael’s? LS: I played for St. Michael’s, I think, for (inaudible). We had things to do that kept us positive. Okay? You know, the socials at the Y on -- what was it? Tuesday? To the YMCA there on Ogden, and we entered ourselves into different basketball tournaments around Waller High School. We used to play after school in Lasalle schoolyard. We would play in the back in St. Michael’s [01:02:00] parking lot, the courtyard and stuff like that, and thanks to Louie, (inaudible), José, and Danny, you know, few of the other guys -- Winston and stuff like that -- that’s what we lived and died for, pretty much. But we also -- JJ: Now, you did play basketball at the Corner House? LS: Yeah. We used to whup you guys all the time. JJ: Oh, yeah. (inaudible). LS: I remember Thurman too, yeah. Yeah, Thurman married Carmen Laboy. JJ: Thurman was pretty good, now. 49 �LS: Well, Thurman, as a matter of fact -- when we were playing at the Arnold League there, Thurman did play with us for a little while. JJ: We played dodgeball. You remember playing dodgeball? LS: No. JJ: You didn’t play dodgeball? LS: No. No, no, no. You got to show (inaudible) for that. But, you know, being a member of the Continentals, we had the basketball team, and that was the other thing about having -- quote -- clubs. We weren’t gangs. Okay? JJ: So, at that time, it was clubs, right? LS: [01:03:00] We were all clubs, and our interaction was basketball, baseball, things of that nature. We weren’t out among ourselves, shootin’ and stuff like that. Rebels, never fight and stuff. They went to school together. The Young Lords, the Imperial Ace -- I mean we weren’t fighting among ourselves. We’re at the socials at the Y. We’re at the socials at the church, so on and so forth, and Paragons, Aces, the Latin Eagles and stuff like that, you know? We didn’t fight among ourselves. We were clubs, and our competition was on the baseball field, on the basketball court and stuff like that. We weren’t gangs. The community labeled us as that, but, also, as the community labeled us, there were people in the community who (inaudible). The Corps. That’s why there were conflicts, you know? And, as we all know, pretty much, the St. Michael’s Drum and Bugle Corps was a choir, which turned into a gang. JJ: They turned into a gang. 50 �LS: Okay? And, [01:04:00] seeing they were the big white group of the community, they challenged, you know], and we had a union among ourselves, but, therefore -- Drummer Boys. We defend ourselves, so, you wanna call us a gang, we defend ourselves. It was Latinos, and we didn’t fight among ourselves. They came against us. We stood together. Okay? But that was the biggest challenge, and the police department, of course. JJ: So, they had a gang, and then they attack, and that’s the only reason -- LS: Well, that’s why we were labeled -- JJ: -- the Latinos attacked back. LS: Yeah, we fought. You had to defend yourself. In those time and ages, us bein’ the underdog at all times -- JJ: So, you’re sayin’ the Latinos didn’t have a gang. LS: In the clubs I just mentioned to you, we weren’t gangs. Continentals certainly weren’t gangs. Our biggest thing was dressing. Double pleat pants, Stacey Adams shoes, the brim hats and -- you know, we dressed, and that’s our competition (inaudible). They’re clubs for us. There was nothing like, “Hey, man, you’re crossin’ our territory.” [01:05:00] You walk down North Avenue all you want to. You come to Orchard, never no problem. As you passed over through North Park, Rebels never jumped you. All right? We went by you guys. None of that stuff never occurred. We were unity as far as respect in our own community. We didn’t go out brickin’ people in the community and stuff. We didn’t rob people going down (inaudible) Street like that and everything. I think we were a positive thing more than we ever really were negative -- excuse me -- and the negative 51 �aspect came because people challenging us or try to keep us displaced or disorganized. Housing for the white people, 50, 60 dollars a month. For us, 175, 200 dollars. All right, move, you know? JJ: So, what do you mean? It was divided like that, or --? LS: They helped divide us like that. They -- JJ: So, was there prejudice in housing? Is that what you’re saying? LS: Yes. You know there was prejudice in housing. (inaudible). JJ: I’m just asking how you saw it, how you saw it. LS: Yeah. I saw it like that, and me [01:06:00] bein’ -- I will say a visitor because I came there pretty much to go to school, but, I mean, after bein’ involved in basketball, and softball, and things of that nature, and having all my friends pretty much there, well, I’m there seven days a week. There was always something to do, and it was never fight, or rob, or shoot nobody. As I recall still, (inaudible) guns. It was TV and stuff like that. We didn’t have any guns (inaudible). There was a brawl. I still remember, you know, in front of the Waller High School there, Oscar Mayer -- no, not Oscar Mayer. I can’t think of the name of the school. It’s the tip of my tongue. But, you know, one time, we were (inaudible) groups. Everybody stood back inside the fence right there, and they knuckled it out. JJ: That was within the group. LS: Within two groups. That’s -- JJ: Within two groups. They were just fighting it out. LS: Yeah. No, everybody stood back and watched. JJ: So, the clubs were just -- 52 �LS: We were clubs, and we still weren’t gang -- it just -- you and I had a disagreement -- JJ: So -- LS: -- and that’s the way we settled it, [01:07:00] and nobody interfered. Nobody brought baseball bats. There was no zip guns. None of that stuff. And the best man won. Everybody went the same way -- their separate ways. JJ: And did you say this was at Arnold or --? LS: It was in the Arnold yard, right there on Orchard, yeah. JJ: Around Burling. LS: Yeah. So, you know, like -- JJ: So, you’re talking about Burling and Armitage, right? There’s a little playground. LS: Well, just as you go to the entrance to the school ’cause, at nighttime, the school is closed. It was the park -- JJ: Okay. So, Arnold, and across the street was the Waller entrance. LS: Across from the Waller entrance, yes. Everybody’s there -- JJ: This was on Orchard. On Orchard. LS: Yeah, on Orchard. Two guys got in there, and they fought it out. Best man won. No retaliation, comeback, nobody shooting or 50 guys in there, you know, and stuff of that nature. We never did that among ourselves. But the thing that I really remember the most is, like, they used to pass the hot dog stand there, police come by over there, pick us up and tell us, “All you frickin’ spics,” you know, (inaudible). JJ: The hot dog stand by Halsted and Armitage? 53 �LS: Halsted and Dickens. JJ: Halsted and Dickens. LS: [01:08:00] Yeah. You know I hung there a long, long time ago. I hung in -- JJ: So, people used to hang around on Halsted and Dickens. LS: Oh, yeah. That was the Paragons, the Latin Eagles, (inaudible). JJ: And there was a hot dog stand. LS: There was a hot dog stand called George’s. Okay? JJ: George’s Hot Dog Stand. LS: Yeah. (inaudible). JJ: And everybody had credit, right? LS: Huh? JJ: Everybody had credit? LS: Well, you know, we had a bad reputation for bein’ a group there, but, then again, at that time, we would defend our turf, and that was the time (inaudible) -- JJ: So, by that time, we were going into the gang. LS: Well, we were a little more sophisticated, and we stood strong. Okay? We stood strong. All right? And I still remember, you know, to this very day, how, even hanging out (inaudible), cops come by, and grab us, and take us down to 18th District. We had to walk back past Cabrini. Even Halsted and Dickens, you know, Dickens down there, or far right (inaudible), we had to come back past the Drummer Bugle Corps right there. That, in itself, man, like, that’s prejudism. JJ: So, what were [01:09:00] some of the sections where the youth groups were? LS: Was my group from? 54 �JJ: No, what were different hangouts where the youth groups were in Lincoln Park? LS: Well, there was the Young Lords on the East Side there, north end of Weiland. Okay? JJ: (inaudible) Young Lords. LS: Yeah. Next block over or so were the Rebels. JJ: The Rebels were in North Park and -- LS: North Park. In between there, there was pretty much nothin’ until you got down to Orchard. That was us, the Continentals. JJ: On Orchard and -- LS: And North Avenue, yeah. JJ: Was the Continentals. LS: Yeah. And, as you went -- JJ: I thought the Gypsies were there. LS: Gypsies lived right there in the area too, but that’s where we pretty much were. All right? And we also, you know -- seein’ nobody owned anything, we would visit each other. For the most part, (inaudible), all of our family. Family. Cousins and everything, brothers here. So, therefore -- JJ: They really (inaudible). LS: -- there was no friction, you know? JJ: Oh, so there was families in between -- LS: Well, each group had -- JJ: A family member there. LS: Yeah. With your clique, with the cliques in there. 55 �JJ: [01:10:00] My cousin -- LS: Cousin. JJ: My cousin was a Rebel, was the president of the Rebels. LS: All right, and -- JJ: And another cousin was the president of -- LS: Of the Continentals. So, therefore, where was there friction between us? There was always a peace, you know? And, if there was a misunderstanding, it had to be on the basketball court or the softball field, and there was no baseball bats (inaudible) anyone. So, we did like that for years, and -- JJ: Right, and, later on, I remember playing baseball, and, if somebody come out and say, “Hey, somebody got beat up,” everybody -- LS: Joined together, and -- JJ: -- left the game. LS: We used to play softball there, up around Waller. We used to play -- JJ: In Lincoln Park. LS: -- in Lincoln Park and IC. JJ: What’s IC? LS: Immaculate Conception, remember? JJ: Oh, yeah. Immaculate Conception. LS: Down North Park, you know? And we never fought one another still. But I think, man, for the most part, that prejudism always -- JJ: What about women? 56 �LS: Well, the women so much -- we didn’t have women with us. We would’ve played cool (inaudible). [01:11:00] You know, we all dressed with our club sweaters and stuff like that. JJ: So, there was always women around. LS: Of course there’s always women. They went to school with us. JJ: ’Cause you were players. LS: Yes, there you go. JJ: (inaudible) heartbreakers. LS: We weren’t about that fighting stuff, you know? We were about just being [glamorous?] as we were, and the girls like that stuff, and we went to play sports. The girls were out there with us, rooting for us, of course. I’m not even sure of all the girls (inaudible) label anyone, but they were part of our clique, and we had one hell of a good time, you know? And then, with the socials at Ogden Y -- JJ: So, the Ogden YMCA -- (inaudible) YMCA. LS: (inaudible) YMCA right there. We had socials -- JJ: What kind of socials? What do you mean? LS: Well, we were dancin’, you know? Like (inaudible). You guys had one week, and we had another week and stuff like that. JJ: So, all the different groups were organizing events? LS: We could always go, yeah, and always -- JJ: Everybody would go to each [01:12:00] other’s. LS: We had support there for one another. JJ: So, they were all in different neighborhoods, so that neighborhood was big. 57 �LS: We crossed boundaries. There was no fear of crossing boundary -- we went (inaudible) you guys at the dances. We (inaudible) girls, you know, with the twist and stuff like that and everything, and -- JJ: I’m saying that whole area was Spanish there. LS: Well, no, no. We weren’t all Spanish, pretty much, because, you know, Old Town Triangle -- JJ: Oh, not Old Town. Not Old Town. LS: -- they didn’t let that happen. JJ: Right, not Old Town. LS: And -- JJ: But I mean, like, when you get more into Lincoln Park, like Armitage and -- LS: Well, we had problems, but anything we did, really, our way up there -- and I’m sayin’ our way at that time because, after, pretty much, the Continentals were dissolved, still, I was up Armitage and Halsted with the Paragons, and the Imperial Aces, and stuff like that. JJ: Okay. So, then, you got into the Paragons? LS: Ace. Still slick. JJ: Imperial Aces. You got into the Imperial Aces. LS: Imperial Aces and stuff, you know? And -- JJ: So, who was the leaders? Who was the leaders in the Imperial Aces and Queens? LS: I remember [01:13:00] Louis Miranda and, yeah, Michael (inaudible), godfather of my daughter. 58 �JJ: But that’s the Paragons, Louis Miranda. LS: Yeah. JJ: But I mean the Imperial Aces. Do you remember them? LS: That one, I can’t remember if it was Bob, or Louie, or what. I’m not sure. I don’t remember. Okay? And, once again, still, we’re not challenging each other to hurt one another. We’re challenging others to the dance floor. We hung at the same hot dog stand. JJ: I think the Lugos -- weren’t they Imperial Aces? LS: Ralphie Lugo and his brother, I don’t really recall because, see, originally, I’m not from them originally. I’m still Continental. All right? But, no, as we dispersed, we went -- and then, again -- JJ: ’Cause they had the church. Weren’t they --? LS: They were at the church -- well, we had the church afterwards. All right? All right. We used to be there on Sundays and stuff like that with Wilson, Louie, and myself, and Michael (inaudible), may he rest in peace, and Victor and stuff like that, and we went there. The attraction was still, once again, basketball. [01:14:00] Softball, you know. Marvin, may he rest in peace also, was a -- JJ: Marvin passed away? LS: Yeah, Marvin passed away a few years ago. JJ: What about Wilfredo? LS: Wilfredo? JJ: Does he still have a store? LS: No. Wilfredo -- he’s -- lives around -- 59 �JJ: (inaudible) Village. LS: He lives in a senior citizen home over off Damen there, by Sheila, I believe. I see him all the time on Division Street. JJ: You see him? LS: Yeah, all the time. Very frequently. JJ: So, he doesn’t have a store? I’m talking about Wilfredo Ramírez. LS: Yeah. (inaudible). No, he doesn’t. He’s had his ups and downs in life, you know, and I see him occasionally. You’ll see him in the park. If you were in Chicago a little more, you’d run into him. Just go on Division Street. You hear him -- probably, he’s over by the old (inaudible). He’s playin’ dominoes or checkers on the sidewalk there. You know, as I said, for the most part, we still weren’t trying to be gangs and stuff. Sports were the thing. But, [01:15:00] you know, as I went through that phase in life, I met a young lady, which made my life change real, real good, and I married her and had a couple kids with her, and -- JJ: Who is this? Who is this? LS: Hmm? JJ: Who is this? LS: It was Rina. JJ: Rina. LS: My first wife, yeah. And that put me up more on a positive basis. When the same time as, roughly, I married her, I went even more positive because things that I had done in the community, I became able to spread myself out and do 60 �more positive things, and, thanks to Mingo, all right? Who also (inaudible) the YMCA -JJ: Mingo Ayala? LS: Yeah. You know, brought me on as part of BUILD when it started in 1969. All right? And -- JJ: What was BUILD? I mean -- LS: BUILD. Broader -- JJ: Did you work at the YMCA (inaudible)? LS: I started out there with him, yeah, as a part-time worker. JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah, 10 bucks a month. JJ: Ten bucks a month. LS: Yeah, 10 bucks a month as a field assistant. And that was the same philosophy we took with BUILD, [01:16:00] all right? And -- JJ: So, what did they do? LS: Okay. Well, BUILD -- JJ: ’Cause I don’t want people to say, “I got paid 10 bucks (inaudible).” LS: Well, the 10 bucks a month was an incentive. It was like stipend fund. JJ: And that was for the leader, right? LS: It was for -- well, the person who best identified with the group to go back and get the guys involved in sports, education. (inaudible). JJ: So, it was like a gang prevention program. 61 �LS: Gang prevention. You can call it also that. You know, and we did a lot of prevention as far as -- with BUILD. JJ: So, whoever could identify the most with the youth group. LS: Well, the person who was so-called leader or the most influence, all right? And I was good in sports, and I was a person -- he and me each had a meeting, and he got his little stipend of 10 dollars. Okay? But, for the years we were there, from ’62, when they had the Detached Program with the YMCA, we pretty much took the same philosophy in BUILD, which we started in March in 1969, and I’m still, to this day, very glad and proud to have been a part of them. [01:17:00] All right? Because, at that time, when I was given the area to work, which was Near North, Cabrini-Green, I went right back to peers in the area that I grew out of, and I was able to help them much more positive and better. All right? Organizer -- I have never been a real great organizer, but I can organize people, and, as we all know, my strength is people. All right? And, once again, from bein’ the basketball player -- and I keep thinkin’ about the boxer. That’s what made you real strong. JJ: Oh, you boxed too? LS: I boxed. Yeah, me and Saxton. We were the neighborhood champs. JJ: Was that the time that we boxed? Everybody boxed? LS: Yeah, we always boxed there. We challenged you guys. That was part of the YMCA. It grew -- JJ: I boxed one year too. LS: Yeah, you can’t remember that. Was that a knockout? 62 �JJ: Was that the one that I hit the guy? LS: Oh, you know what, now? I remember that. Yeah. (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: We were in a league of YMCA. League of YMCA. [01:18:00] This is the tournament. Cha-Cha gets into a fight, and then he bites the guy. I do recall that, yeah. Yeah, that was really funny. JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. Okay. Cha-Cha was pullin’ -- what’s his name? A Tyson. A Tyson. JJ: I didn’t practice. LS: Yeah, you were practicing all right, man. JJ: (inaudible). LS: But I would know, in the future, to feed you first, okay? But, you know, yeah, that was the type of programs that the Y had offered. We offered the same thing, but we were keyed in on certain communities, but that also was given by the community for us to come and work those areas. We were private. We weren’t owned by the city or state. We’re all private. Our dollars were given to us private by donations. And we were assigned to various communities who put the money up for us. JJ: So, wait a minute. So, you were getting 10 dollars a month. LS: No, no, no, no, no. I grew way past that. JJ: You went past that later. LS: Yeah. Yeah. No -- JJ: Oh, that was BUILD when you started -- 63 �LS: With BUILD, yeah. I came from the field assistant to the -- I think it was director. This was all part-time, [01:19:00] and then I became a full-time worker, which I left my job at the time. I used to drive a truck for an art supply company, so I left that, and I came on board with BUILD full-time, which gave me lots of time. I’m a street worker. That’s my title. So, therefore, between working the gangs in Cabrini and up to the Near North, you know, I guess it was probably a very good move for me because of sports is how I made any and everything because I’m known in Cabrini-Green -- basketball, little bit of boxing. I went to St. Michael’s. We had a lot of (inaudible) with basketball there, you know, Waller High School and stuff like that. I knew multiple people, and, that way, it was easy to [relate?] - JJ: But you didn’t go to Waller School. LS: Pardon me? JJ: ’Cause you went to St. Michael’s. LS: I went to St. Michael’s. JJ: But you hung around with Waller? LS: Well, you know, in my deals with sports, I got to meet people from all the schools in the area there. Even with DePaul [01:20:00], even, you know? JJ: DePaul? Okay. LS: Even with -- yeah. I can’t think of Booker’s first name, but, you know, played with and stuff. I happened to be in a team from the Continentals. Louie, myself, José, Danny, we played with lots of teams. They recruited us. And, especially when tournaments came by, you know, whoever had us had the trophy. And 64 �that’s another thing about playing those tournaments. Trophies were offered. It was the park district, or the schools. They offered trophies, and that was a thing that we played for. JJ: That was with BUILD. BUILD was more organized. LS: Well, with the YMCA, they had given us the same opportunity, but, after 1969, when we started BUILD, we concentrated a little more heavier into that, and their funding was for the groups that worked with me (inaudible) assigned to. JJ: What about Sebastian? Did you know Sebastian? LS: Sebastian, yeah. Sebastian -- I still see little man. JJ: [01:21:00] You still see him? LS: Yeah, I still see him. Yeah. JJ: Didn’t he win a -- LS: He was boxin’. He’s boxin’, yeah, for lightweight, and we talk about that each time we meet. His son worked there, over by Wilfredo, Saxton’s brother. JJ: Saxton’s -- oh, yeah. LS: Yeah. Okay? He -- JJ: That’s the one I thought had the store. Is that the one you’re saying? LS: He had the store. JJ: He’s in Humboldt Park now? LS: No. No, no. This is Black Wilfredo I thought you were speaking of. JJ: No, no. I’m talking about Wilfredo, Saxton’s brother. LS: Okay. Yeah. He had (inaudible) men’s clothing. JJ: Yeah, where’s he -- is that still there? 65 �LS: No. He sold out a couple years ago, and he -- I think he’s in Florida still. JJ: Okay. It was a business deal. LS: Yeah. Yeah, we -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. (inaudible). JJ: Was it (inaudible)? LS: No, no. Luis Ayes. Well, Luis Ayes, he retired from the police department. He lives in Puerto Rico. JJ: Oh, lives in [01:22:00] Puerto Rico? LS: Yeah. His son works with me -- is, as a matter of fact, from my department. He’s a clerk (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) leader of the Black Eagles. LS: He was? JJ: For a while. LS: I remember he was there. Yeah, I remember Louie. I met Louie just as he left high school and went to the police department. JJ: [He was in a movie. He was in a video?]. LS: I don’t recall that, but I remember I met him afterwards, and he went to the service also. All right? And I met him just prior to that, and after he came out and stuff like that, you know -- same with Miguel. Both Miguels, and Miguel -- I can’t think of it now. Pantoja. JJ: Oh, Pantoja. 66 �LS: Yeah. And then, the other Miguel -- can’t think of the name right now, but I met them just as they had made their move. JJ: The Pantojas were -- weren’t they Imperial Aces? LS: Pardon me? JJ: Were they Imperial Aces, Pantoja, or Black Eagles? LS: [01:23:00] One Pantoja -- JJ: Just, again, these are all social clubs we’re talking about. LS: Yeah, we’re still social clubs as far as -- we are -- as a matter of fact, we’re not 15, 18 years old. We are -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: You better believe it, bro. You know, we are, at this time -- we were adults. We had families and stuff like that, and it wasn’t so much -- for some of us, even though we didn’t hang at the hot dog stand anymore every day, you know, because -- (inaudible). You guys were already low-profile, and you’re into different things far as the movement with the Young Lords. We had resolved our -- JJ: So, what did you think when we were doing that, when we were doing the Young Lords? What did you think? LS: I was still trying to pretty much do the thing with social work. I got involved in that (inaudible). JJ: Did you think we were doing something wrong? LS: Well, you know, we weren’t always on the same page, but, as far as bein’ positive, I guess visibly, what people saw us doing -- 67 �JJ: What was it that you didn’t like about us? LS: Well, I’m not gonna go into what I didn’t like about it. It’s just that we probably had the same goal somewhat, [01:24:00] same intentions. We [went about?] different ways of doing it, and -- because I wasn’t a member of the Young Lords - JJ: [I know?]. LS: People -- they thought I should be [riding that way?], but, still, today, you know, I’m not gonna follow a group. I’m gonna do what I think is right, and that’s the direction I’m goin’ to. JJ: What were the other guys thinking? I mean, did they get mad or something? LS: Well, not (inaudible). As long as I got six, ten, twenty-two other kids behind me and I’m goin’ to the softball field, I’m playin’ flag football -- JJ: So, they just didn’t pay attention. LS: Well, no. It’s not they didn’t pay attention. They did pay attention because, at the time, they said you’re not trustworthy, so they had to watch you, but, watching what we did, you see we were people doing things positive. We were -education. All right? And, no -- JJ: So, we weren’t positive. That’s what you’re saying? LS: No, I’m not saying you’re not positive, brother. By no means at all. Okay? JJ: I just wanna -- LS: From what I did with BUILD, okay? And what you -- JJ: BUILD was positive. LS: Okay. That [01:25:00] (inaudible). 68 �JJ: But you were -- LS: But, even prior to that -- JJ: We weren’t on the same page, you’re saying. LS: Even prior to that, we used to hang out on Dayton Street like that and everything. Of course, I didn’t march, carrying the flag and stuff like that and preaching to people. (inaudible). I don’t have to follow anyone. I have my own thing. That’s what you were doin’. Did you ever see me go the other way against you? Didn’t. The same when we were different clubs. Didn’t go against you. I don’t have to be on the side of the fence to say, “I recognize what you guys are doing.” You had more guts than most people that stand up to other people. All right? I'm not trying to go out and start a picket (inaudible) anything like that. That’s not what we’re doing things that time, and it’s still to now, and I also recognize, pretty much, to win a battle is education. Learn the game. Bring the game back. You win the game that way. You don’t always have to pull up something and fight. [01:26:00] Okay? And (inaudible) my parents and stuff from Catholic school, to learn something. Okay? In the community, you can always learn the negative side about the fighting and stuff, but, like me, I learned to fight in the ring. Okay? And that was (inaudible) lot of people because the the record Saxon and I had as the heavyweight champions is still strong. It’s myself, Ray Ramos, Luis Peña, and some of the other guys had basketball. We were models right there. That, in itself, speaks for itself, and that bring followers because you’re doing something positive, and all kids like sports figures, and we are the sports figures of that community. Okay? 69 �JJ: You guys were the sports -- LS: All right? And, therefore, when a parent allowed a kid to come with us or to join the -- JJ: Luis Ayes and -- LS: Luis Ayes became a policeman. JJ: -- [Dan?] were more like policemen. LS: Luis Ayes -- JJ: You guys were more, like, into sports. LS: Well, even when -- JJ: We were political. We were political. LS: You were political, and [01:27:00] I wasn’t politically involved, but Luis Ayes at the time -- as I said, I met Luis and Juan Pantoja -- they had either come out of the service or gone in. Juan went out, and Luis (inaudible). JJ: But then, they got involved -- see, they got jobs with the city, though. LS: I don’t recall that. JJ: You don’t recall that? LS: No, ’cause Pantoja -- I know he didn’t get a job in the city. Not that I remember. [Toothpick?] did. JJ: Oh, Toothpick got a job in the city. LS: Toothpick, yeah, may he rest in peace also. (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah, Toothpick’s been -- like Marvin. Probably a decade or so, almost. Yeah. JJ: But his brother was involved in the -- 70 �LS: I can’t remember his brother’s name, but I also remember he had a brother, you know? But Toothpick was -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah, but (inaudible), you know? JJ: I know, but -- okay. What I’m saying is some people -- because, when I talked to [Edie?] -- you know, Edie was in the Young Lordettes. LS: Oh, yeah. JJ: And they were going -- what’s his name? In the 31st Ward. LS: 31st Ward? JJ: Ray [01:28:00] Suarez. Ray Suarez. LS: Yeah, Suarez. Yeah. JJ: So, they were part of that organization. (inaudible). LS: You know, I have worked against Ray Suarez, and I don’t remember seeing you there. JJ: I don’t understand how that works. LS: But either -- JJ: How could you guys be in the same room but work against each other? LS: Different times. Edie -- you’re talking about Saxton’s -- JJ: Yeah, wife. LS: Saxton’s brother’s wife? JJ: Saxton’s brother’s wife. LS: Yeah, Ruben. JJ: Ruben. 71 �LS: (inaudible), yeah. JJ: They were both Young Lords. They were -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: But they were working the other way? LS: We may have worked at different times, supporting our candidates. JJ: ’Cause they were more with Daley and stuff like that. We were workin’ against Daley. So, what was that? LS: I’ve been on that tree, up and down it also. Okay? Daley -- JJ: Why did you work with Daley? LS: Well, I was never really, at that time, fully aware about the political movements and stuff. JJ: We’re talking about everybody. We’re not just talking about -- LS: Lot of us were. JJ: -- Young Lords. We’re talking about the neighborhood of Lincoln Park. LS: Yeah, lot of us [01:29:00] were -- JJ: Doesn’t matter which side you’re on. LS: -- because, as a matter of fact -- JJ: I’m just asking-- LS: Okay. ’Cause, if you recall correctly, when politics are brought around (inaudible) [Jimmy?] -- (inaudible) last name right now. They’re Republicans. Okay? And we weren’t really aware that much about voting and stuff?. Jimmy (inaudible) people were doing that. After we became a little more knowledgeable and learned that, us being minorities, our strength was not with the Republicans. Our 72 �strength was with the Democrats, and, therefore, we had to make that conversion. And, in doing so, some people went that way visibly, and other people didn’t go visibly, and I’m still glad today, my time I did (inaudible), it wasn’t for the politics. It was because (inaudible) organization, and we never took a political stance, you know? And I’m still democrat. All right? And -JJ: (inaudible) democrat too. LS: But -- JJ: [But then], Daley, (inaudible) -- LS: -- Jimmy -- JJ: Whenever -- LS: That was Jimmy Miranda, you know? He was goin’ out, gettin’ all the [01:30:00] votes and everything from the people and everything, and not realizing until way some time afterward, we were supporting Republicans who kicked us in the butt. You know, helped us lose our homes and stuff like that. And I learned a little bit about that. As a matter of fact, the thing with Jesse and stuff -- I didn’t know much about politics at that time either, and -- JJ: Jesse Jackson? LS: Jesse Jackson and them movement -- Martin Luther King -- I mean, I wasn’t abreast about of all that stuff, and they were really working things out for us and stuff like that. I wasn’t all that smart about politics. I learned the hard way. Not so much that it hurt me, but I learned, if I’m gonna take a stand, where I really should be standing. Okay? And, in that community, you know, we stand Latino, and we weren’t (inaudible). All right? So, therefore, there were times you had to 73 �request -- they gave you the crumb, and they had the cake, you know? And there were other times -- like, yeah. Okay, yeah. They threw us a little bit more and stuff like that. But, up until -JJ: So, what [01:31:00] you’re trying to say is that you didn’t just join for the heck of it. They had to throw something. LS: That’s the way the game is, right? That’s what it’s about, isn’t it? Isn’t that what it’s about? It’s about jobs. JJ: I don’t know. I mean -- LS: It’s about jobs. A lot of the people went for the job -- I never had a job in the city. I never (inaudible). Didn’t really knock on doors either because, at the time, I wasn’t politically involved. Okay? But, like I said, to get followers in what we’re doing that matter to us and our community right then and there. Okay? That’s the important thing. When this -- Rentes had a problem with housing. Okay? We can go right there to Miguel. I think it was called -- it wasn’t DHS at the time. Can’t think of the name of the project, but, you know, we could go right there to Carmello, and Carmello would help us out. Okay? JJ: So, when you say Carmello, and Rentes, and all this, all these are people from the neighborhood? LS: [01:32:00] Those are people from the community, but, at this time, though -- JJ: But they got some connections. LS: Well, the connection was they had put -- I can’t think of Carmello’s real name right now and the department they had before they called it DHS. Tip of my tongue. 74 �JJ: Oh, DHS over by -- LS: Before that. Before that. JJ: When they were on Dayton? LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: DHS? LS: Yeah, but it wasn’t DHS. JJ: Manchigo? LS: Manchigo, there we go. All right? As a matter of fact, helped us see that goal in Puerto Rico. JJ: Oh, yeah, because he worked for the city. LS: There you go. That was our representative JJ: So, he controlled the jobs. He was a representative. LS: Well, we don’t know about control the job. He was our input to the city as far as I know because there was a problem. That’s what the DHS office was there for. JJ: He was just doing DHS. LS: He was -- JJ: Did he have something to do with the --? LS: He was a director. You know how many times Manchigo -- JJ: The director of -- LS: -- got us out of jail and borrow money out of his pocket and stuff like that for various things, you know? He was our spokesperson, and I think, to this very day, his brother, and his wife, and (inaudible) used to chip in and get us out (inaudible) little bit, stuff that really [01:33:00] wasn’t (inaudible). 75 �JJ: (inaudible). LS: Well, you know, there’s always a change. When you’re into that politics thing right there, you’re standing here today, and, tomorrow, you’re over there, but, nevertheless -- so, he was our representative at that time, and I went along with that, and, you know, they had the city side, and they had you guys fightin’ what you fought for, and, at the time, it wasn’t even about housing either. I’m still about moving kids, and recreation, and education. JJ: So, you were into recreation. LS: Okay? And one thing led to another into a agency, went to the Aspect of Life, knowing n our community and Near North there that was a very important thing. JJ: Concerned Puerto Rican Youth. LS: CPRY. Ernesto Hernández. JJ: Ernesto? That was Ernesto? LS: Yeah. JJ: Ernesto Hernández. LS: Ernesto, yeah, and Mingo was there also. JJ: And Mingo. And Mingo. LS: And Mingo, at that time, was with YMCA. Yeah. JJ: So, what was that about? How did that start? LS: That was also for, as it says, concerned Puerto Rican youth, and with the little storefront there, [01:34:00] (inaudible) Armitage, and we built ourselves a little office there, and there were funds freed up somehow, I’m assumin’, okay? Well, as a matter of fact, I’m not gonna assume ’cause I know (inaudible) Bissel 76 �hardware, and some of the other businessmen along Armitage put money and stuff up, so we had a secretary. JJ: So, you guys got the money from the store owners? LS: We had the businesspeople support. Okay? JJ: So, you guys went out and raised money. LS: They went out. JJ: And just depended -- LS: They went out, you know? So, we were able to -- JJ: And you guys are working with youth, trying to stop the -- LS: Working with youth and stuff like that, and, you know, at the time, we had the Latin Kings up there and that kind of thing and stuff like that, fighting, and we had, coming from the North Side -- can’t recall the other group. It’ll come to me sooner or later. All right? JJ: Latin Eagles? Were they Latin? LS: No, no, no, no. Latin Eagles -- once again, that’s family. We don’t fight. We didn’t have no fight there, you know? But there were rival groups at that time, which came -- JJ: You mean rival with the Latin Kings? LS: The Latin Kings, yeah. And [01:35:00] even with the Gents, they didn’t have no problem. We didn’t have no problem. Even the Gents were being in the middle of all of us there, going out on Orchard and stuff, and -- I can’t think of the name of the other street right now. 77 �JJ: But, I mean, the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth -- didn’t they get money at all from the city, or (inaudible)? LS: I can’t speak to that. I think they did, but I can’t say yes, for sure, because, as I say, I wasn’t a part of that. JJ: They were trying to build something like BUILD, right? LS: They were building a neighborhood thing centrally located in our community for Puerto Ricans, which also -- CPRY influenced Black, white, Latin, whatever. People from our community were there, you know? JJ: People from the community. LS: And people donated books. We had people come in and teach classes, volunteers, (inaudible) right there. JJ: ’Cause we got along real good with Ernesto. LS: Pardon me? JJ: We got along real good with Ernesto. LS: But, see, once again, that’s why we were not -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: That’s why we were never gangs, because we were offering the same things, [01:36:00] just come at different angles, and we’re -- support of our community. JJ: They were just trying to -- LS: Okay? It was those who didn’t want to survive or spark up too many sparks, you know, to stop them from allowing us to be part of our community or with our cultures. 78 �JJ: So, you guys were organizing that youth group, the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth. Now, it was the same thing that we were trying to organize the Young Lords. LS: You already organized, and you had People’s Park already. JJ: [You were?] -- LS: You already had People’s Park, and you took the church over and stuff. All right? All right? JJ: So, were you guys jealous of us, or were we just --? LS: (inaudible) jealous of you? I still dress better than you. (inaudible). The thing (inaudible), you know, you weren’t a competition, and we didn’t try to compete against you. The purpose was to educate -- JJ: We were just different. You were more into sports and stuff like that. LS: Yeah. The thing is to educate our people. JJ: I say we’re both trying to educate our people. LS: Yeah. All right? Educate the people. And those people with the housing problems, help out. [01:37:00] We all have resources, but we all have the same resource, so, therefore, you could be help comin’ from left field, and help is comin’ from right field. Okay? And the field that should be helping both sides, you know, we could attack it or (inaudible) -- JJ: I got to change this. One second. LS: Okay. What time is it? JJ: What do I care about time? LS: If I say, “I quit,” you do. 79 �JJ: Okay. Just a few more minutes. LS: We fight and wrestle all the time. END OF AUDIO FILE 80 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/572823d836a231e614de32653114b3cd.mp4 735ce88af9f67ac58b43f860d6a713d6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Lacey Smith vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Lacey Smith, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 10/19/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Smith_Lacey_1 Title A name given to the resource Lacey Smith video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Lacey Description An account of the resource Oral history of Lacey Smith, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 10/19/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-19 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf91a6b553164f6e7087133151e22a88.pdf a1e0c8a5b6c53d174f08f911a3eb9faa PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Lacey Smith Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/14/2012 Runtime: 01:55:40 Biography and Description Oral history of Lacey Smith, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on December 14, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript P1: Right. LACEY SMITH: You know? And the other thing, also, the city has been cuttin’ down right now? They are takin’ -(break in audio) JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Lacey. Give me your name, full name, date of birth. LS: My name is -- JJ: Where you were born. LS: Okay. My name is Lacey Smith. I was born here in the city of Chicago, and my birthday is in December 28 of nineteen hundred and -- JJ: Which is coming up, so -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- happy birthday. I won’t be here. LS: I know you were gonna tell me that anyway. Yeah. ’48. And I’ve been residing here in the city of Chicago my entire life. JJ: Your entire life? LS: Yeah. JJ: So, how do you feel about that? I mean, feeling -- LS: About living in Chicago? JJ: Yeah. LS: Well, you know, Chicago is a very unique city in all aspects. We have a [00:01:00] great mixture of people. Politicians, education, environment, living 1 �conditions, and I feel a small part of some of all of those. Coming from a poor environment -- I pretty much still do live in a poor environment, but a middle-class poor environment, I suppose you would say. Education. JJ: Middle-class poor environment? That’s what you said? LS: Sure. JJ: Okay. What do you mean? What do you mean by that? LS: I was pretty much raised in the projects, and, gradually -- JJ: 16th and what? LS: 13th and Loomis. JJ: 13th and Loomis. LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. LS: That’s Robert Taylor. JJ: Robert Taylor, okay. LS: Yeah. You know, came out of there, and, from there, we went to Catholic school, and then went to public school also, and, from there, back to another Catholic school. JJ: But you mentioned the Catholic school you went to was what? LS: St. Joseph, which was right across the street from our house there, like a minute and [00:02:00] a half across the street. JJ: St. Joseph LaSalle, by (inaudible)? LS: No. No, no. No, St. Joseph on 13th and Ashland -- I mean 13th and -- JJ: Right by the projects, right by -- 2 �LS: Yeah. Yeah. Right across the street from our house right there. JJ: So, that was Catholic school, and then you went to the public school? LS: Well, we had gone to the public school prior to that, which was about two and a half blocks south. It was Medill Elementary School. JJ: All around there. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, what kind of neighborhood was that while you were going? LS: Well, as we grew up back in the ’50s there, it wasn’t that much of a mixture, but predominantly Black. JJ: Predominantly Black? LS: Yeah, there was Anglos there, and there were Latinos there and stuff in the project area. JJ: But, as you went to Roosevelt and Taylor Street, what was that --? LS: Oh, that was like pretty much a dividing line, somewhat, although there were the Jane Addams housing there, on the Roosevelt Road there. You get to Taylor Street, that was Italian. JJ: So, by the Jane Addams House, over -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- by -- where Circle Campus is now. LS: No. We’re still west of that. JJ: You’re still west of that? 3 �LS: Yeah, we’re on 13th, [00:03:00] and Circle Campus started pretty much by the other side of Morgan, Blue Island, stuff like that. So, we’re still a little ways away from there. JJ: Okay, a little ways away -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- from there. But, so, you didn’t cross into that area ’cause that was the Italian neighborhood? LS: Well, once we were in high school, I had to go there every day to go to school. I caught the Number 37 bus, and, prior to that, we had -- JJ: How was that? No discrimination, none of that stuff? LS: Well, that depends on what you were doing because I had friends already over there, Taylor Street and stuff like that, you know, playing sports. When you’re involved in sports, you meet lots and lots of people, and other kids, who, like myself -- there’s no such thing as a boundary line. You go where the sport is, you know, and your peers and stuff of that nature, but, eventually, you will find there is a boundary, but whether you honor it or not, that’s your choice, pretty much. JJ: So, how did you get around to Lincoln Park? How did you get there? What was that situation? LS: Oh, that was -- JJ: You know, when we say Lincoln Park, the Armitage -- LS: Well, no, [00:04:00] that was a thing of -- after not bein’ able to survive educationwise in St. Ignatius because they had the grades and stuff, (inaudible) fund also, 4 �I wanted to try something different rather than to go to the Crane, or Cregier, or whatever schools there were down in that area there, so, you know, St. Michael’s was on the list. And so, chose St. Michael, and I’m always thirsty and hungry for something new. I like challenges all the time. So -JJ: So, you went from the (inaudible) homes to St. Michael’s every day? LS: Yeah. Sometimes six, seven days a week because I loved basketball. JJ: Oh, okay. (inaudible) basketball there. LS: Yeah, and, in basketball -- was a door to me to do lots and lots of things. Our relationship -- (inaudible) other people ’cause I’d been a part of the North Side for the past 55, 60 years, I guess. JJ: On the North Side. LS: Yeah. JJ: Yeah, the North Side. LS: [00:05:00] So, this is my (inaudible), wives, kids, education, employment. Everything I have has pretty much been coming from the North Side. Basketball, baseball, school, degrees and all. You name it. I’ve acquired all that from bein’ on the North Side, and -- JJ: So, you’re a North Sider. (inaudible) North Sider. LS: Yeah, I’m a North Sider. JJ: If I tell the West Side people, they -- LS: I’m a North Sider. (inaudible). Yeah. Yeah. So, I’ve acquired everything over there, school, and (inaudible) came from, you know -- as a young kid, didn’t know much about prejudice and stuff like that, and gang was a word that really wasn’t 5 �for me other than it being a word that I wasn’t really involved in it, and come to the North Side -JJ: So, gang was not a word, you’re saying. LS: It was a word. I never was affiliated, involved [00:06:00] in it. And, even as a young man on the North Side, quote-unquote that word gang was not something I was a part of. It was a thing that was labeled, that was given to us, pretty much, because we were all about athletes, athletics and stuff. Each block had their own boys in the clubs and stuff. We called ourselves clubs. (inaudible) boys, Armitage boys, North Park boys, Sedgwick boy -- we were all about sports and stuff. JJ: Okay. So, you’re talking about the Lincoln Park neighborhood. LS: Lincoln Park neighborhood, Near North, anything up in that area there, which is all Near North. JJ: It was all sports. It was all sports. LS: With us, as far as us, sports and stuff. The Young Lords there, on the other side there -- we weren’t gangs and stuff like that, Continentals, and Rebels, and stuff. We weren’t gangs. We were block clubs. We used to be about the sports. JJ: But we were being called gangs. LS: We’re always being called gangs by the system because that’s what they label us, but I can’t ever, until this very day, recall any of us rebelling against one another. [00:07:00] You know, (inaudible) baseball, basketball field, but it wasn’t called a gang thing. Nobody came out with guns, and knives, and bats, and stuff like that. 6 �JJ: So, nobody was fighting each other in that area. LS: No. We never did nothing like that with the Aces and Paragons. You know, we never fought one another -- with the dance contests and stuff, the picnics and so on. JJ: So, it was more like fighting at the dances? LS: Well, that’s because the young ladies (inaudible). JJ: It was competition. LS: Yeah. Competitions for dancing, yeah. You know how that used to be, the twist and so on and so forth, and -- JJ: The twist and all that. LS: The bop, the two-steps and stuff, yeah. You know? “You’re dancing with my girl.” Something like that. JJ: The Continentals? The Continentals and all that. LS: Yeah. (inaudible) this very day. The Continentals, we were still the coolest. JJ: Twine Time. LS: Twine Time, yeah, with “The Twist,” Chubby Checker, and stuff like that, you know? JJ: So, that was that age at that -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: There was competition on the dance floor. LS: Competition on the dance floor [always?]. JJ: But no fighting each other. LS: [00:08:00] (inaudible) stuff like that. 7 �JJ: Straight-up dancers. LS: Yeah, you know. JJ: Lovers. LS: Yeah. We were still the best at that also. We were still the best at that too, you know? And the neighborhood labeled us like that. That was nothin’ like -- we were not shooting and fighting each other down the streets and stuff. JJ: So, we weren’t fighting each other, but did we fight others? LS: Well, it wasn’t a thing that we had set up, we were rivals against Eagles, anything like that. You had those little rough bumps and stuff like that, but it wasn’t enough that we went shootin’ and stuff like that, or you’re gunning for this person. If someone from another area came, you know, just put your sweater over your arm, you know, and come through the neighborhood. There was nothin’ like we’re fighting -- (inaudible) Belmont and catch the Lords maybe like that. That stuff didn’t exist. We were labeled like that, you know? JJ: So, you mentioned put the sweaters over your arm. What was -- LS: That was respect. JJ: What was that? LS: [00:09:00] That was respect. JJ: You had sweaters? Was that --? LS: We all had sweaters and stuff like those jackets. JJ: What kind of sweater? LS: Like the high school sweaters, stuff like that. JJ: High school sweaters? 8 �LS: Yeah. We’re carryin’ our colors. JJ: Okay. High school sweaters, and you carry your colors. LS: That was the club we were -- the type of wool sweaters we had of the colors. Blue and white we were, red -- whatever, may have been brown. The same as the high school (inaudible), pretty much, you know? And those were our representation of our club. Everyone know, pretty much, who you were by the colors, but it was nothing like -- you were not feudin’, fightin’, and shootin’ with one another still. JJ: Everybody’s just proud to wear your colors. LS: Yes, proud to wear their sweaters. Yeah. JJ: Your sweaters. LS: Yeah. JJ: Everybody had their sweaters, and -- LS: And that’s where they had them. (inaudible) with the emblem and everything on it. JJ: So, it was more like sharp-dressed, (inaudible) sweater. LS: Yeah. Yeah. We’re sharp. JJ: Instead, it was sports (inaudible). LS: There was sports, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s a mixture of people. We grew up, I think, in one of the most diversified areas there were, and Lincoln Park was -- we lived in there, between -- what was that? Division [00:10:00] and perhaps all the way, maybe, up to Diversey, perhaps, over there, and Lincoln Park, Triangle, and stuff like that. To school, though. 9 �JJ: Okay, there were still a couple fights, right? LS: Pardon me? JJ: There were still, like, a couple fights, but this was outside -- LS: Fights were minor scraps, I would say. There weren’t things like someone shooting somebody or -- JJ: No, but I’m not talking about with each other. I’m talking about other -- LS: Other areas? Yeah. JJ: Like the Romas. Were they angry with us? LS: Of course, because we’re Latinos. JJ: Okay. And what about -- there was that pizzeria, Benny’s pizzeria and all that. LS: Well, Benny’s Pizza wasn’t that much of a thing because that also -- at that time, I had moved pretty much up -- even with the sports and my affiliation with sports - JJ: We’re uniting -- LS: I lived there, yeah. JJ: We’re uniting like the Paragons. Is that what the group did? LS: Yeah, Paragons and Black Eagles up in there. JJ: So, you were in the Black Eagles and the Paragons? LS: No. We moved out there with Aces. The Imperial Aces. JJ: Imperial Aces. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the Paragons -- JJ: Tell me [00:11:00] about the Imperial Aces. Who was the leaders? Who was --? 10 �LS: I can’t remember exactly who everyone was at that time, but, once again, still, I’m a sportster. You know? So, I represent -- as -- JJ: Well, they threw dances at the church, didn’t they? LS: Yeah, at -- JJ: (inaudible) -- LS: -- Armitage (inaudible), yeah. JJ: -- before it was Peoples Church. LS: Right. Yeah. Right. But, you know -- JJ: That was their hangout before it was Peoples Church. LS: That was their hangout there, and even the Paragons and Aces -- JJ: ’Cause the Imperial Aces and the -- LS: And the Paragons and -- JJ: The Paragons too. LS: Yeah. Yeah. And there was a hot dog stand. But, you know -- JJ: The hot dog stand? Where was that at? LS: Halsted and Dickens. JJ: Halsted and Dickens was the hot dog stand. LS: Yeah. Right. Right. JJ: George’s Hot Dog Stand? LS: George’s Hot Dog Stand better known as, yes. And -- JJ: Now, this is your interview. Why am I telling you this? LS: You’re asking me, and I’m answering your questions once again. Well, the things I learned about bein’ in the North Side was bein’ a people’s person. I 11 �always did enjoy bein’ with people, like I enjoy sports, and I guess -- and attending St. Michael’s High School gave me a new grip on [00:12:00] people in themself because, oh, there was some prejudism there in the school with teachers, which wasn’t surprising, being a Catholic school. There also was a teacher such as Brother Johnson, who was the first Black teacher (inaudible). He reinforced on us loving everyone. All right? He was very supportive to us and also gave me that new onlook about caring about people. People of color, people of no color, whatever they be, you know? So, that was growth in itself. But, also, I was learnin’ education was the number one thing. He was rough about that, making sure that we succeeded in education, which I did. It was rough sometimes because we were a new breed in the school, and -JJ: What do you mean, a new breed? LS: People of color. And -- JJ: You’re including there people of color -- LS: There’s been Latinos and Black -- JJ: African American, Black -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. You know, because Anglos were gonna make it one way or the [00:13:00] other ’cause, at first, it was a white school, a white community, and so on and so forth. JJ: So, now, these Latinos and Black are going to St. Michael’s? LS: Going to St. Michael’s High School, yeah, payin’ the tuition. JJ: And some of the teachers are prejudiced? 12 �LS: Well, no. It was not exactly a place I found out to be where you were there and it’s accepted. There were people callin’ on you about the prejudism. I found one of the nuns tell a young lady, “It’s not nice to talk with them, hang with them. A white girl like you’d be hanging (inaudible).” And it came back to I was a basketball player, you know? People of color don’t care about who the fans are. I mean, you care about the person who plays a sport. And this was told to us by several people, and I also heard it face to face because this young lady was talking to us. I thought we were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Teacher told us just like that, face to face. But -- JJ: Were you worried about it? LS: No. Didn’t lose [00:14:00] no sleep over it. I kept on livin’ life like I live life this very day. Accept people as they accept you. Do for those that you can help, and hopefully they can do for you if you’re in need of help. And I went through school, and I got my education, and, along with my education, I still played sports. JJ: You graduated from St. Michael’s? LS: Yeah. I graduated from St. Michael’s also. Which led me out to the streets, and, at that time, being older, you know, you got into street activity and stuff, but still playing sports. Basketball, boxing, baseball, stuff like that, with the group of other streets. Not -- JJ: Was the neighborhood changing? What year was that? LS: Mid-’60s. JJ: Mid-’60s? 13 �LS: Yeah, mid-’60s and stuff. JJ: Okay. So, I think it started changing with late ’50s, right? LS: Well, late ’50s, I wasn’t up there at that time, late ’50s. JJ: You weren’t up there. LS: No. No. JJ: But mid-’60s, you were up there. LS: Yeah, early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s. LS: Early -- yeah. JJ: Did you notice any changing? LS: Well, you know, housing, especially with the rents and stuff like that. We were pretty much from 40, 50 dollars a month for rent, jumped up to [00:15:00] 100, 120 dollars, and people couldn’t really afford it. JJ: The rent was 40 and 50 dollars a month? LS: Forty, fifty dollars for some apartments, yeah. JJ: And then it went up to what? LS: And it doubled in some places. They wanted the people out because the whites were movin’ in, you know? Converting apartment and stuff, and, all of a sudden, there was no place for us there. So, that was part of that migration to Humboldt Park. They pushed us out, far west and stuff like that, which was a racial problem at some time, but, then again, it kinda was changing. They was just getting rid of us totally, and that’s why we started coming west. JJ: You’re saying it was a racial part at some times? 14 �LS: Yeah, it was a racial -- because some of those buildings there were full of Latinos, Latin and, say, white, but everyone in the building -- rent didn’t go up. They just wanted their property, and they want to do what they want to do with it, which cleared us out, the Latinos and Blacks, and, in that part of the area, there weren’t that many Blacks there, and I, at that time, didn’t really reside there because I always went back down to my mom’s house. JJ: So, I thought it was just about money, so -- LS: Well, if they’re [00:16:00] gettin’ you out of the apartment and raisin’ the rent, it is about money. JJ: Right. So, it was about money, but you’re saying it’s also about race? LS: Sure. The whites there weren’t moving to Humboldt Park. It was the minorities, people of color, always the ones that were bein’ thrown out and came to Humboldt Park, although, at the time, Humboldt Park was Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, as it is somewhat today, but we outnumber ’em probably about seven, eight, nine, ten to one some places, you know? So, that was where the migration from there came, west. JJ: Oh, so, you’re saying it was there first. LS: We were all in the north -- a very good mixture. They cleaned us pretty much out of there. You couldn’t afford or own property there, you had to move out because you couldn’t afford the rent, you know? And those who didn’t go to public school had to find those places to go to altogether too, and that was a lot of movement. A lot of movement, you know? That was pretty much the [00:17:00] mid-’60s, and that brought a lot of problems. Lot of problem. 15 �JJ: How did people see it? I mean, did they notice it -- LS: Well -- JJ: -- or did they notice -- I know they notice it today, but, when we were living there, did we notice that we were being kicked out? LS: Sure. There was rebellion against that. I was part of the picketing and stuff you guys did, walks back and forth, protesting. JJ: The Young Lords? LS: Yeah. JJ: The Young Lords protests? LS: Exactly. Yeah, picketing, protesting the rent, people being evicted. It was a big thing there. It was all about money, and the politics was changing, pretty much, and the Republicans were taking over. You know, we didn’t have that much of a democratic voice there because, once again, it was all Anglo there, and -- JJ: But, when we were doing it, a lot of people were against what we were doing. LS: Sure. JJ: Why do you think that was going? LS: Because there’s ways of doing things to some people, and there are ways of doing things right. What’s good for this hand doesn’t mean this hand has to agree with it. Okay? And -- JJ: So, people felt that we weren’t doing -- you felt that we [00:18:00] weren’t doing it right? LS: Well, with my situation, you know, I -- JJ: That’s okay. I just want to know how -- 16 �LS: Yeah. JJ: -- you felt at that time. I know -- LS: I -- JJ: -- today is different. LS: We didn’t see eye to eye about things (inaudible). I found out, in doin’ the things I did for the community and the kids of the community, working with the YMCA and social agency -- I worked for BUILD and things like that, and DHS, you know -- were a different approach than you did, and, with the format you know, we followed by it, and we had funding through the city or through private agencies, and that’s what we followed pretty much by, you know? JJ: But your approach more -- ’cause you said you’re into sports, and you were helping the youth. LS: Oh, yeah. That -- JJ: We saw you helping the youth, and we saw that was okay. LS: Well, it’s always -- JJ: (inaudible) too. LS: Yeah, but, before, you know -- and, working with BUILD -- let’s go ahead a little bit. In working with BUILD, BUILD has been the most healthiest thing I think I’ve ever done my life. Okay? Because BUILD introduced me to people, Near North, Cabrini-Green, which I was assigned to in the early [00:19:00] part of the ’80s, and I worked there -- JJ: BUILD as in Broader Urban Involvement for -- LS: Broader Urban -- 17 �JJ: Involvement for -- LS: Leadership Development. Okay? JJ: So, they worked with gangs, gang prevention. LS: We pretty much worked with the street gangs. We worked with elementary schools, and we continued with the sports and education. If you aren’t knowledgeable about things going on -- JJ: And, before that, it was the YMCA. LS: Well, we came out of the YMCA. JJ: Detached working? LS: Yeah, (inaudible) detached workers program, you know? JJ: Okay. So, you were working on the street there. So, it was you guys (inaudible). And then, you had -- I know Mingo had the other group. LS: CPRY? JJ: CPRY. LS: Yeah. JJ: We saw you as doing good. You were working with youth. LS: Yeah, working with youth. JJ: But you weren’t concerned about the housing at the time. LS: Well, at the time, that wasn’t an issue that we were involved with, although, you know, as years went on, found out it was a thing that we should be a part of also because -- JJ: It was later, [00:20:00] years later -- LS: Yeah. Years later. 18 �JJ: You realized -- LS: Well, we felt that was a thing that we should be a part of also. You know, it doesn’t help to be a part of all sports and no education. JJ: But, at that time, how did you feel about what the Young Lords were --? LS: The Young Lords were doing their thing. We were doing our thing, pretty much, just with different ways of approaching ’em. JJ: So, you didn’t see us as enemies. We had grown up together. LS: We’re not enemies. Just didn’t see eye to eye. JJ: We didn’t see eye to eye? LS: Yeah. JJ: They’re doing our thing, we’re doing ours. LS: They’re doing their thing, and the thing was -- JJ: We’re not attacking each other. LS: No, not physically. You know, verbal and stuff like that, of that nature, but the thing was to do for the people. JJ: But, I mean, so, you were disagreeing. My point is we weren’t attacking each other, but you guys were -- among each other, you were talking, right? LS: You were doing things with the housing. We’re doing things with the sports and education. JJ: That was it? LS: For the time, that’s what it was. You know, we were leading kids -- well, education -- JJ: You didn’t give us no mind. Is that what you’re saying? 19 �LS: Well, no. You were doing [00:21:00] things, as I said, your way. JJ: Yeah. I mean -- LS: All right? And -- JJ: -- you didn’t see us as trying to be terrorists or something? LS: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The word “terrorist” wasn’t a thing even (inaudible) those days. Militant. Militant’s the word to use. But yeah. JJ: The militants. LS: But that didn’t stop us from doing our thing. JJ: So, them guys are trying to be militants. Is that what you’re saying? LS: No. That’s (inaudible). I didn’t think we put that label on you or anything. You were doin’ just as you were doin’. JJ: Your thing, and we were doing our thing. LS: And we were doing the thing with sports and education. JJ: Okay. So, you saw that we were doing something. It just -- you didn’t agree with it. LS: You were doing something for the community. No question about that. JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. Yeah. You’re doing something for the community, and -- JJ: You gave us that respect. LS: Sure. I mean, I’ve always respected you. JJ: No, no, I know we always-- LS: But I pushed -- coming from a house that I -- my mother, lived with my mother and father most of my life, everything. I always found out, you know, dealing with 20 �kids, you have to be a model to them, and we’re a model to the kids in sports. The father was in prison. The mother was in prison right there. JJ: [00:22:00] So, you had -- LS: I tell a child about sports. Without education, you’re not gonna advance. Education is something everyone should be gotten into, whether they’re good at it or not. If they need assistance at doin’ it, you know -- it’s not an option to be without. Okay? But those of us who did take education and move on with it, it was a thing that -- everyone with a high school diploma or degree progressed. There were some that didn’t, but a whole lot of us did, and they show in society that being people of color is a very good thing. Judges, policemen, military. We have a whole lot of Latino judges and stuff now, you know? Corporate leaders, nurses, so on and so forth. JJ: Because you’re working with youth, so you have to work with judges, and probation officers, and all the, you know -- LS: Well, over the years, that has become a factor because, through [00:23:00] BUILD, working with the kids -- JJ: And the police, you had to have ’cause I remember BUILD, once a year, played sports with the police. LS: Well, yeah. We used to have the annual softball and basketball game with the local districts, and the (inaudible), and stuff. JJ: To build relations. We were trying to -- LS: To keep the relationship -- JJ: You’re building good relations, and we were attacking the police. 21 �LS: Well, see, but our relationship at the time wasn’t in the 13th District -- I mean 18th District. You were in 18th District. We were the 13th and 14th at that time. Okay? JJ: So, you were -- LS: So -- JJ: -- in a different district. LS: You know, we had not expanded back that way until I came back in ’82. I guess it was around that time. JJ: Well, I guess my question is what did you think? Because the Young Lords used the word “pig” for the police. What did you think? LS: Well, you know, I felt, respectfully, their name is officers. Police, all right? All right. Respectfully, you know. But, nevertheless, there were times then, and there are times now -- JJ: We’re not using that -- LS: -- the policemen did not do -- JJ: We’re not using that term right now, but I’m saying -- LS: Yeah. But they [00:24:00] were not just doin’ what they should have been doin’ as law enforcers. JJ: Oh, so you agree that there was some abuse there. LS: Some? There’s always been some. There’s always some now today. The guys (inaudible) years in jail for some murders they didn’t do. JJ: So -- LS: DNA’s freed people who’d been in jail for 20, 30 years, you know? So, people have always been framed. Just, nowadays, there are ways of provin’ that they 22 �weren’t the one who raped that person, or killed that person, or that one commander who coerced a confession out of this young man -- some things he didn’t do. There’s always -JJ: Oh, so, times have changed, where, now, abuse is more known. For example, like, a policeman coerced a confession out of somebody? LS: Sure. They did then, and they’ll probably do it in the future also. It’s just, they have to be more -- JJ: But, now -- so, that has changed your thinking in that little way. LS: I knew it then, but there are state attorneys who [00:25:00] knew from the jumpstreet and policemen who knew people were innocent, but, once again, that’s a political thing about jobs and stuff. (inaudible) conviction. JJ: But your main concern was to help the youth at that time. LS: Help the youth at that time and -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: And it still is today. JJ: It is, okay. LS: Education -- this is America. You can do and be anything you want to be with education. Always will be. Okay? You can always succeed. The sky is the limit. You know, with the man upstairs lookin’ over you, you cannot fail. You shouldn’t fail. JJ: What are some of the things, going back to Lincoln Park a little bit ’cause we’re trying to get a picture of what Lincoln Park was like at that time -- what are some 23 �of the things that you did or that you remember that maybe the Imperial Aces were doing, and Imperial Queens, [00:26:00] to live daily life? What did they do? LS: Well, I guess we all thrive -- we look forward to that Friday night, though. That was the dance contest at the Y, or you had Immaculate Conception, you know, the YMCA and stuff like that. On Tuesdays, going swimming at the (inaudible) YMCA. We all had, pretty much, part-time jobs. I recall having a job in a car wash. I also remember having a job at Zenith, washing dishes in the kitchen and stuff like that. JJ: What place? LS: Zenith. You remember used to be on Armitage there? All right? No, Zenith was [on Halsted?], and (inaudible) was on Armitage, and Hamlin, all right? Because (inaudible) those little threads and stuff. You know, our parents supported us in household and stuff like that, especially those of us who came from large families, you know, and we went to school. So, we pretty much all had part-time jobs besides school, and -- JJ: You had part-time jobs, [00:27:00] and you waited for Friday. LS: Waited for Friday and Saturday night. That’s when -- JJ: Friday and Saturday. LS: Yeah, ’cause that was when we go out, and we’d do the twist, and we did the bop, and you name it. We danced Northwest Hall, what was it, Swedish Hall. JJ: Northwest Hall? LS: Yeah. We used to go in and dance. JJ: Over on Western and North Avenue? 24 �LS: Webster. The one on Sheffield and Belmont. JJ: Oh, the Webster one. I remember the Webster one. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right? JJ: What was the name of that hall? LS: Swiss Hall. JJ: Oh, that was Swiss Hall. That was Swiss Hall. LS: Yeah. You know, that was showtime, and during the week was -- we -- JJ: What do you mean, showtime? LS: That’s when you get on the floor. You made that (inaudible) with your feet, man, you know? JJ: You weren’t doing twirls or whatever. LS: No, but we did a whole lot of splits. JJ: Splits. LS: Yeah. JJ: Did a lot of splits. LS: Did a lot of splits and stuff, you know? Yeah, I remember Saxton and myself and -- JJ: Saxton? LS: Yeah. JJ: Saxton -- LS: Edna. JJ: Oh, yeah. LS: Yeah, (inaudible) stuff like that. Yeah. I think -- 25 �JJ: Now, Edna was a Young [00:28:00] Lordette. What were you doing with a Young Lordette? LS: It’s because I was a Continental, you know? The Continentals were sharp. We always had your girls. But never no conflict behind that stuff, you know? And we all went to school. JJ: So, all the different -- LS: We came together. JJ: Different groups, they came together -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: -- (inaudible). LS: No problem. JJ: No problem. No conflict. No fighting. LS: No conflicts. Yeah, that’s because we weren’t gangs. It’s ’cause we were not gangs. JJ: Okay. There -- LS: Okay? JJ: -- was no gangs. LS: There were not gangs. All right? Wherever we went to, we always met on Friday or Saturday night. Eagles, Panther -- I mean, Paragons, Continentals. The Rebels didn’t hang that much with us and stuff like that, but we all went, and the contest was threads and dancin’. JJ: So, it was two contests, to see how bad you dressed -- 26 �LS: Yeah. And you get on the dance floor. Then, we took that trophy every weekend, Saxton or I. JJ: And what about cars? Did that play anything? LS: Well, all of us didn’t have cars. Some of the guys had cars. Chino, may he rest in peace also, (inaudible) had cars [00:29:00] and stuff like that. JJ: He was a Young Lord. LS: Chino was Paragons. Chino was Chino. JJ: The one that committed suicide? LS: Yeah. JJ: He was a Young Lord too. LS: Yeah? Okay. JJ: Yeah, he became a Young Lord. LS: Okay. But -- JJ: That’s right, he was a Paragon too, and a Young Lord. LS: He was the president of the Paragons. JJ: Right, he was the president of the Paragons for a while. LS: Yeah. Right. JJ: Then, he became a Young Lord. LS: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. LS: And, you know, I think we were all really positive. Going negative was fightin’ for our survival in the community, pretty much, and that was necessity, and a lot of us -- we kept pushing, pushing. We became -- 27 �JJ: You’re talking about Chino, the one that committed suicide. LS: Yeah. Eva and -- JJ: What was that about? What was that about? LS: Russian roulette. JJ: That’s all it was? Playing Russian roulette? LS: Mm-hmm. JJ: So, it wasn’t really a suicide. It was a -- LS: Russian roulette, yes. You play, and you expect it to happen, yeah. JJ: But he did that in his house. LS: In his house. I just left the house. JJ: In front of his mom and dad. LS: We were sittin’ at the table in the kitchen. JJ: What do you mean, “We were sitting?” LS: I was there. [00:30:00] I just left. JJ: Oh, you had just left. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, you had just left. Who else was there? Who was there when it happened? LS: Eva, his sister. JJ: Eva? LS: Yeah. And Sonia. Yeah, Sonia. That’s his mother’s name. Remember? And -see, I’m not sure if Pete was here yet or if he was still in New York, but there were a whole bunch who was there, you know? (inaudible) George’s Hot Dog Stand. We were over at the house, in the basement, sittin’ there. 28 �JJ: And then, he was just playing Russian roulette? LS: I just left. It was my curfew time, and -- JJ: So, you don’t know, but -- you heard the next day -- LS: I heard the next day. JJ: -- that he committed suicide. LS: Yeah, blew his head off. Yeah. JJ: So, that went all over the neighborhood. Everybody -- LS: Sure. JJ: Any time something happened -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- it was a big -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. I came back (inaudible) next day. The first I heard. Very first I heard, you know, which was a very, very sad thing. Yeah, it really was. JJ: And there were other things that happened in the neighborhood. Didn’t Ito get shot or something? What was that about? What was that about? LS: That was -- JJ: This is Ito -- What was Ito’s name? LS: Barrella. Barrella. JJ: Barrella? LS: [00:31:00] Yeah. JJ: Barrella? LS: B-A-R-R. JJ: Oh, Barrella. 29 �LS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. JJ: And wasn’t that Elvis, his name? LS: Yeah. That was (inaudible). JJ: So, when I say, “Wasn’t that Elvis,” why are you laughing? LS: Well, ’cause Ito was the thing. He loved to sing and stuff, and doin’ Elvis steps and things of that nature, you know? JJ: So, what do you mean, he loved to sing? You mean at the dances? LS: No, he would do it on the street corner, wherever it may be. He would always imitate Elvis. JJ: Did he dress like Elvis? LS: Don’t really remember too much about that. He dressed -- JJ: ’Cause he had hair. He had the -- LS: Yeah, he also wore his hair a little bit long and stuff. Yeah. JJ: Like Elvis. LS: Yeah. JJ: He looked like -- but he would sing in the street corner like Elvis used to? LS: You know, we all used to do -- how do you call it? (inaudible), baritones, and stuff on the corner, you know? “What’s your name?” Yeah, remember that? And stuff like that, and we all used to do that stuff. JJ: What do you call it? Bebop [00:32:00] music? What kind of -- what is it? Bebop music? LS: Rock and roll. JJ: No, rock and roll -- 30 �LS: Rock and roll and bebop. JJ: But that singing. The singing that they -- LS: I can’ think of the phrase right now (inaudible). JJ: But everybody used to sit around and sing -- LS: Right. JJ: -- on those different corners. LS: Yeah, the bottle of wine in our hand and stuff like that. JJ: Bottle of wine. LS: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) that wine (inaudible). LS: (inaudible). Yeah, I remember those days too. Yeah. But, back to the thing I was sayin’ about -- JJ: And he was good. Wasn’t --? LS: Yeah, he was good. As a matter of fact, at some of the dances, he’d get up on stage there. They’d bring him up, and he’d sing -- JJ: So, they would bring him up to the stage -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- and he would sing -- LS: Yeah. Right. JJ: -- at our dances. LS: Yeah. Right. JJ: And everybody would go (inaudible). LS: Yeah. That was all good. 31 �JJ: Like if he was Elvis, right? LS: Well, you know, he -- JJ: Now, did the girls like that, or --? LS: Oh, yeah. Sure. The girls -- they all loved it. Any of us guys, that time, who had entertaining skills other than basketball, you know, the girls went crazy. JJ: So, the basketball thing was because the girls liked that, and -- LS: Well, the girls, they were our cheerleaders, you know, in basketball [00:33:00] and baseball. JJ: What did the girls do? What did the girls o? LS: Well, the girls had their little thing too, but I don’t think we were supportive to them as much as they were to us. JJ: So, we didn’t support them, but -- LS: Well, not as much as, you know, because, as time went on, I recall -- JJ: But they had their own groups (inaudible). LS: They had their own little group and stuff like that, yeah. They were mostly -- JJ: Now, did they fight in their groups? Were they gangbangers? LS: I don’t recall ever any fights like that and stuff like that. No. JJ: So, they weren’t gangbangers. LS: No. Not even at the beach and stuff like that, when they were at the beach, hanging out and stuff. I don’t recall the girls (inaudible). No, I really don’t. JJ: The girls did not fight. LS: I know we used to go to the beach -- JJ: Were the girls -- I mean, were they, like, street girls, or were they --? 32 �LS: They were all -- you can’t really say street girls. Street-wise, yes. JJ: Street-wise. LS: Okay? Because they went to school. Quite a few of them are nurses, and we have one or two that are attorneys, two attorneys and one judge. Others are business secretaries, and I think a couple even own companies, if I recall this correctly. They were very, [00:34:00] very progressive also, and -- JJ: Professional? LS: Professional. Progressive. Professional. JJ: Progressive. Oh, they were progressive. LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: When you say progressive, what does that mean? LS: They’re ambitious to become something besides what people thought they should have been by amounting to nothin’, hangin’ on the street corner, and just getting pregnant right out of high school, and becomin’ nothing. They had goals, and -- JJ: They had goals. So, they weren’t street people. LS: Street-minded, once again. JJ: They were street-minded. LS: Street-minded, but not -- JJ: But they had goals. LS: They had goals, yeah. JJ: That’s what you’re saying. LS: Yeah. 33 �JJ: That’s what you’re saying? LS: Right. Right. JJ: I don’t wanna -- LS: And -- JJ: -- put something in your mouth. LS: They were -- JJ: This is what they were saying. That’s what you’re saying. LS: Yeah. No, they had goals, and they acquired them. Of course -- JJ: You think of girl gangs, or girl clubs, or whatever -- LS: Girl gangs. Not in that time and age. JJ: So, they weren’t girl gangs. LS: No. Not in our time and age. JJ: Not at our time. LS: No, not that I can recall. JJ: So, these were just groups of -- they just went by their names? LS: Yeah, they were support to us as the group we had, that block group we had. I don’t ever recall -- JJ: You had the Young Lords, and you had the Young Lordettes. LS: Young Lordettes. Okay? JJ: [00:35:00] And you had the Imperial Aces, and you had the Imperial Queens. LS: (inaudible). JJ: What about the Paragons? They had -- LS: Paragons -- 34 �JJ: Just Paragons? LS: Their group was back and forth, the girls. They were pretty much at the hot dog stand, you know? So, it wasn’t like -- I mean, there was like -- JJ: The Miranda girls were Paragons. LS: Yeah, but, you know, they -- JJ: And they had other friends. LS: They had other friends that came over and stuff. JJ: And the Black Eagles had women with them all the time. LS: Yeah, which was -- the girls with them would share the same corner. JJ: They shared the same -- LS: Corner, yeah. Halsted and Dickens. JJ: Halsted -- everybody shared? All the different groups shared? LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Halsted and Dickens was downtown, basically. LS: Uptown. JJ: It was uptown. It was uptown. Not downtown. LS: Uptown, yeah. Good times and stuff like that. JJ: So, everybody went there. But then, other people had their own restaurants, didn’t they? Well, who was in A and A? LS: That was on Larrabee and Armitage? JJ: Yeah. Who was there? What groups went there? LS: That was Aces and Paragons also. Yeah. JJ: [00:36:00] Aces (inaudible). 35 �LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, that was everybody too. LS: Yeah. No problem. JJ: And what about the White Front? Who was there? LS: The White Front -- I’m trying to think of it now, White Front. JJ: What was the restaurant --? LS: That was the restaurant on Halsted and Armitage there. JJ: Right. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that too. JJ: So, the building was (inaudible). LS: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that too. JJ: And who went in there? That was what? LS: We were all mixed there also. JJ: Oh, we were there, mixed? LS: Yeah, we were mixed there also, you know? I know about that. JJ: I thought it was more Eagles and Paragons there. LS: No, no. JJ: It was all mixed. LS: Mixed, if I recall. I mean, I didn’t go there that often because I went to St. Michael’s, and that was quite a ways away. JJ: Okay. You said there were sports, there was, like, softball. Did they play 16-inch ball? LS: Oh, yeah, 16-inch. Yeah, we played that. 36 �JJ: So, where did they play? LS: And then, on Saturday, we played 12-inch at Lincoln Park. JJ: In Lincoln Park? LS: Yeah, we played slow pitch, hardball, and stuff over there in Lincoln Park, and we had hardball also. JJ: Oh, we play hardball. LS: Yeah. JJ: And what about -- so, you only played in Lincoln Park, or did you play in neighborhood parks? LS: [00:37:00] Well, we played up there softball up on Webster and Sheffield there. We also played up on Addison, behind the police station there. We would play ball up there also. JJ: That was with the Latin Eagles. That was another group. LS: Yeah, with the Latin Eagles and stuff like that. JJ: So, you played against them. So, even -- we’re playing against them. We’re not fighting. LS: No. We had an altercation a time or two, but it wasn’t because of gang. It was over a game. JJ: And that was one or two individuals -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- usually. So, the gang -- LS: It would be a fair thing. JJ: It would be a fair thing? Just these two, let ’em fight, and that’s --? 37 �LS: Yeah. That’s fair. Yeah. That’s fair. JJ: So, there was a few of those things, right? Fair fights. LS: Well, you know, it wasn’t anything were someone got killed, or stomped, or beat with a baseball bat, or shot with a zip gun. Okay? We didn’t -- JJ: It wasn’t that. LS: No. JJ: So, it was just a fair fight. LS: Yeah. Even -- JJ: And everybody made sure that it was -- LS: It was a fair fight. That’s for sure. JJ: Nobody’s gonna get -- LS: Nobody (inaudible), and it stayed fair. JJ: [00:38:00] Okay. So, that was (inaudible). LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, there was really no gangbanging in Lincoln Park. Is that what you’re saying? LS: Not with us, it wasn’t. Not among ourselves. It’s not that it didn’t exist thereafter because St. Michael’s Drum and Bugle Corps -- JJ: Later on, it existed. LS: Yeah, because (inaudible). JJ: St. Michael’s Drug and Bugle Corps. LS: Bugle Corps. From bein’ a band came into a gang. JJ: From a band, they became a gang. 38 �LS: There you go. JJ: So, why do you think that happened? LS: They were whites against us. JJ: They were whites? LS: They’re whites against us. JJ: So, it was mostly a white -- LS: They were a white -- JJ: A white drum and bugle corps. LS: -- drum -- bugle -- they were startin’ to be a band from St. Michael’s. JJ: So, it was a racial thing. LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, is that (inaudible)? LS: That’s just what is says. They were a band who came out of St. Michael’s -- JJ: And they were all white. LS: -- High School, and they were all white -- couple Mexican kids there, I remember -- and they were [00:39:00] totally against us. As you may remember, the police used to pick us up in that area and drop us off to make us walk back in their neighborhood, just to make sure that we got jumped one way or the other. JJ: The white police? LS: Would pick us up. JJ: And put us -- drop us off -- LS: And drop us off in that neighborhood, yeah. JJ: To get beat up. 39 �LS: That’s right. That’s right. JJ: So, they looked at us as a gang -- LS: Well -- JJ: -- but it was more racial. Is that what you’re saying? LS: It was racial. You know, why would you take -- if someone in my area was Latino, or, myself, Black, or whomever the other people in there -- you know, there weren’t very many people dark as me, were there? Carlos, a few other people. But deliberately pick us up, and take us for a ride, and drop us off on Cleveland and Armitage? JJ: So, most of the Spanish people in the Chicago -- ’cause, in New York, a lot of the Spanish people are darker-skinned. So, actually, the most of the Spanish people in Chicago and Lincoln Park were more light-skinned? Is that what you’re saying? There was a mixture. LS: We’ve always had a mixture because Latinos -- JJ: I mean, they weren’t light as [00:40:00] me. LS: And they were dark as me, some of ’em. But, bein’ Latino, you know, we aren’t promised any color of pigment. JJ: We got what? LS: (inaudible). Look at my kids. My grandkids. (inaudible). It’s not promised, you know? But, like the cop told me that time, “Why are you with these spics?” JJ: You said problems. We didn’t have problems. LS: We’re not promised color of pigment. JJ: We’re not promised. 40 �LS: Yeah. You know? Like the cops used to say, “What are you with these spics for?” Spics, you know. I am one. And so, therefore, I walk back from (inaudible). But it was a little bit different for me. I went to St. Michael’s. But, nevertheless, I’ve been chased as the same group in the summertime. I remember the old Gas 4 Less gas station there. I’ve had to fight in the middle of there for my life and run. JJ: What was that like? Gas 4 Less was where? What corner? What corner was that? LS: That’s where the drummers -- St. Michael’s. Cleveland and Armitage. JJ: Cleveland and Armitage. There was a Gas 4 Less station. LS: Yeah. JJ: And what was goin’ on there? LS: That’s where that gang [00:41:00] hung out at. JJ: There was a gang? LS: Yeah, up there. Yes. JJ: What do you mean? The Drum and Bugle Corps? LS: You better believe it. Just like Roman’s Pizzeria, Sheffield and Webster. JJ: So, the Drum and Bugle Corps hung out there too? Oh, yeah, because St. Michael’s is on Cleveland. LS: Three blocks down. JJ: So, all they did was just walk a few more blocks down -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- to Armitage. 41 �LS: Yeah. JJ: So, they would catch people there when they went to the gas station? LS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was the only gas station, as a matter of fact. JJ: So, when we wanted to get gas, we had a problem. LS: We got beat up there, or the cops called and dropped us off there. JJ: Oh, that’s where they would drop us off. LS: That’s where they dropped -- in that area, right around there. JJ: Right around there. LS: The other side, by LaSalle. We got to come back that way one way or the other, and they were a large bunch of -- group. (inaudible), we’re bound to get caught one way or the other, you know, so there was really no escaping that part. JJ: So, here’s all these Puerto Rican gangs. LS: Groups. JJ: Groups. Groups. I’m sorry. Let me take that word back, say -- I get tricked myself. LS: Okay. I’m gonna trick you, all right. JJ: So, all these Puerto Rican [00:42:00] groups are not fighting each other. LS: No, we’re never -- JJ: But then, they get dropped off in a white -- LS: In a white community -- JJ: White community. LS: -- where they knew there were gangs, you know, who have (inaudible) pop bottles, and beer bottles, and (inaudible) can really recall or care to remember 42 �because of bein’ taken down to that bar our men in blue and dropped us off. Bein’ taken to jail, having to walk back and stuff (inaudible) 18th District. “Oh, we’re gonna let you guys go. We had to walk back. Yeah. JJ: Now, did these Drum and Bugle Corps -- were they a gang? LS: Yes. I think we already established that they were. For the most part, they had already graduated from high school. So, that was their hangout spot, and they’d sit there, and they juiced up, everything like that, and we had to come back through there. So, like I said, I was lucky sometimes because I played ball. JJ: So, they had graduated from high [00:43:00] school, and they were not playing ball. LS: That was the clique of the neighborhood. Like we would hang at the hot dog stand, all right? That was their -- JJ: That was their place. LS: That was the hangout, yeah. JJ: That was their hangout. Okay. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, we did have a hangout, but it was -- LS: Well, some of us did. JJ: But it was racial. LS: It was pretty much racial. JJ: Most of the Puerto Ricans were over by Halsted and Dickens. LS: Well, Halsted and Dickens, North Avenue, Whealan, stuff like that, (inaudible) and stuff. But, as you said -- 43 �JJ: At a playground. LS: Yeah. JJ: We were in different sections. LS: Yeah, but, as you said, the only way to get gasoline -- that’s where we had to go. JJ: That’s where you go to get gasoline, you get your but whupped. LS: Yeah, that was the only place. That was the place we had to go for gas, yeah. JJ: Right, go up there. LS: About there. Yeah. JJ: But, by the same token, when they came and got [Polish sausages?] -- LS: Yeah, but, see, that time, though -- I guess, you know, I better say they was a gang, or should I say that? Because that was revenge, because it wasn’t so much they were identified Drum and Bugle. It was just, once again, reverse racialism. They were there, and that was where [00:44:00] they turn out, and we did the jumping. Yeah, I do remember those days also. JJ: So, we did some jumping there. LS: Yeah. Yeah. I do remember. JJ: And you said that was revenge? LS: Sure. JJ: Why would it be revenge? LS: It had been done to us on the other side. JJ: So, it had been done to us first, or no? LS: As far as I can remember, yeah. I would say yes to that. JJ: ’Cause revenge, that sounds -- is that what you mean by revenge? 44 �LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, I can actually say yes to. JJ: Are you sure it was done to us first? LS: Sure. I had been dumped over there. JJ: Okay, you got dumped over there. LS: I got dumped over there. And, before that, I don’t ever recall anything, like, it was a thing where somebody white or Anglo came through there, and we just jumped on ’em prior to us bein’ dumped in that neighborhood. People used to come to the hot dog stand (inaudible) used to be long, people of multicolors. Korean, Japanese. JJ: So, it used to be multicolor. LS: People standing there and buyin’ that Polish -- JJ: [00:45:00] But, then, it became -- LS: Then, it got to the point anyone was white there, you had to get jumped for a while. JJ: So, then, if whites came, then they get jumped. LS: Yeah. Yeah. I have seen that also. JJ: So, we did a racial thing. LS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. JJ: ’Cause you said it was for revenge. LS: Yeah. I’ve seen that also, yeah. JJ: Okay. LS: And that was not while I was in school. That was afterwards, so, I mean, once again, that was the older group. 45 �JJ: Oh, that was later. LS: Yeah, that was the older group. JJ: So, in the beginning -- but you weren’t there in ’59. LS: No. I was there from ’63, ’64 and up, though. JJ: ’63, ’64. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, you were there when it was really all Puerto Rican, mostly Puerto Rican. LS: So-so. Yeah, pretty much. JJ: Well, ’63, ’64, that was changing a little bit, no? LS: Well, yeah. That was, pretty much, but even -- JJ: Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans? But, I mean, what was the boundary? Where were the Puerto Ricans? Where were the Drum and Bugle Corps? LS: Well, they were the other side of Larrabee. JJ: They were the other side? LS: Other side of Larrabee, yeah. We’re in between Halsted and Racine. JJ: [00:46:00] Okay. Okay, so, we were between Halsted and Racine, and they were on the other side of Larrabee. LS: Yeah. They were Larrabee back to the lake. JJ: In between Halsted and Larrabee, what was there? LS: In between Halsted and Larrabee? That was pretty much us because you had -- JJ: That was us too. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, we were the other side of Larrabee. 46 �LS: Yeah. JJ: Larrabee was (inaudible). LS: Yeah, we were west of Larrabee. They were east of Larrabee. Yeah. That way, you know. JJ: And you went straight up, from North Avenue up. LS: Yeah. And then, once again, go back to -- this is where BUILD gave us the opportunity to teach kids sports, basketball, baseball, education, and I found also -- even with the court system. You know, goin’ to represent the youth in court, providing programs for them after school. We had a program ran by the (inaudible), where we were the last chance for some kids before they became incarcerated, and that was a very successful program because, when I was an advocate there, I used to make a curfew call [00:47:00] at nighttime, go to court with them in the morning, and provide programs for the youth throughout the day, male and female. (inaudible) also. And, in working in the Near North and Cabrini-Green area, you know, it was a challenging job because you’re dealing with kids who maybe, perhaps, no one really loves, and we were the last chance before they become incarcerated. In most cases, we were the ones, especially in our program -- I ran the street program. We were the ones who (inaudible) the racial (inaudible) in the Latin community or a mixture and were going, “Oh, man, I don’t wanna go over there.” And, finally, even some of ’em got married. BUILD got new friends, especially (inaudible) and stuff like that at the time. So, they grew (inaudible) blood can’t mix, and that’s another thing, you know? BUILD provided lots of things for kids, and I’m glad to say I was a part of that, building 47 �the structure in the [00:48:00] community and helped me in my own life, meeting people and stuff like that, and helped me also -- even more so broadened my education, broadened education and stuff like that. You put people in situations where they ordinarily would not have become, and they grew from that, and that’s what happened with me as BUILD, you know? And, as you go through the BUILD program, you find out -- you know when your time is up to spin off. It’s time for new blood to move in, and that was one thing that BUILD was very, very good at doin’ and they’re still doing today, and, if you don’t mind me sayin’ so, they’re located at 5100 West on Harrison, and they’re still working with children with gang background. JJ: They’re on Harrison? LS: Yeah. Moved as of July 1. JJ: As of July 1? LS: Yeah, of this year. Yeah. JJ: And you’re still working with BUILD? LS: I go occasionally. They’re a little farther than they were before. Before, (inaudible) go there pretty much every day up until now. But BUILD [00:49:00] program was one healthy program for our community, Lakeview, Near North, Uptown, Cabrini-Green, West Town. They were a healthy program. JJ: ’Cause didn’t they have, like, a thing where they -- you can go in, and they have every neighborhood? LS: We were selected by -- JJ: Like, they had a field office, right? 48 �LS: I mean, office was always Ashland and Milwaukee. JJ: No, but I’m saying they had field workers. LS: Oh, yeah. I started out -- yeah -- JJ: How did that work? LS: Yeah, I started out with BUILD, makin’ 10 dollars a month as a field assistant. You gradually grew. JJ: How does that work? LS: Well, that’s the person who has a contact with the group, and you would get your peers and stuff involved, and -- JJ: So, that means you were assigned to a corner. LS: I was assigned to a group. JJ: To a group, okay. LS: All right? I’m a member of that group at the time, though, you know? All right? Or you could have been assigned depending on how neutral was the group because there, at that time, [00:50:00] and I guess the ’80s and stuff like that, there were conflicts with the Vice Lords and stuff of that nature, the Gents, these Deuces, and so on and so forth. So, either you found someone of that group that infiltrated the group and helped them out with education -- JJ: Infiltrated the group, or you’re a member of the group? LS: You can be a Young Blood there and still help (inaudible). JJ: And it was 10 dollars a month. LS: Ten dollars a month. There was a stipend. JJ: What kind of work do you do? 49 �LS: That was just more or less an incentive if you come to that one meeting a month and get the money, and, in the same token, you still hung with the group. You’re a member. JJ: What’s the meeting? You come at the meeting? LS: You come to that meeting there, and you can talk about things that happened within your group or people you’d like to see helped, you know, education, or someone may need a job. Someone may need a GED. You know, and you grew pretty rapid?. JJ: So, it’s like a counseling session. You say, “Okay, this is what we can do for these people?” LS: “This is what I’d like to see [00:51:00] happen within my group.” JJ: Okay, within my group. Okay. LS: Yeah. JJ: “This is what I would like to see happen within my group.” LS: Yeah. This person, this person, you know. JJ: You shared that with everybody. LS: You shared that. Then, you had your -- JJ: And then, they might help you. They might -- LS: Well, no “might” about it. We made an effort to always do it. Always made an effort to do it, you know? (inaudible) to the field worker, and then supervisor, and then coordinators and things of that nature. All right? And we made the effort. Get those groups (inaudible) in sports. Help one group (inaudible) job in the same location. It was makin’ people meet one another, (inaudible) one another. 50 �JJ: Building -- LS: BUILD. BUILD. JJ: (inaudible) -- LS: BUILD -- JJ: -- everybody trying to -- LS: Yeah, that’s what BUILD’s about. JJ: Like building unity. LS: Yeah. And, that way, you know, you can erase some of those lines and those boundaries. JJ: Building networks, yeah. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That’s what BUILD program’s about, and it is now, and they’re [00:52:00] still doin’ the same thing. The emphasis is now on gangs more because foundations and funding is not that much available for gangs, but there are other ways that they have found to get money to work with the youth. JJ: So, what kind of -- how did they get money? I mean, what -- LS: The United Way was a supporter. You’ve got private corporations and personal and private donors who would donate. JJ: They had a lot of personal donors, or --? LS: Oh, yeah. We’ve had over the years, yes. Some of them. JJ: From where? From factories? From --? LS: Corporations. JJ: Corporations? 51 �LS: Yeah. Corporations. And we have very, very few government dollars because you don’t know -- in election year, you can be cut 100, 200,000 thousand dollars, and that was our budget, and we never, that time, invested into brick and mortar. [00:53:00] And so, therefore, we were sure the dollars we had would be there another year, five years, ten years from now down the line, so they -- JJ: You were sure? How were you sure? LS: Well, if you are not -- JJ: Connected. You got to get connected. LS: Well, you’re not into, say, city dollars. Say, next year, (inaudible) loses the election, there goes, possibly, your funding. You know? JJ: Okay, so you got city dollars too. LS: Well, we didn’t have a great deal. We weren’t depending upon them a great deal, no. JJ: You got some. So, I mean -- LS: Yeah. Well, private donations and corporate -- JJ: Private donations. LS: Yeah, and corporations. Yeah. That was the backbone of everything. JJ: Okay. So, private donations and stuff like that? LS: Yeah. JJ: What else? LS: You spoiled it already. JJ: I spoiled it? Oh. I’m sorry about that. LS: No. Doesn’t he always say that? 52 �JJ: Hold on one sec. Hold on. (break in audio) LS: You know how hard those stairs were comin’ up? Watch how easy they be goin’ down. JJ: [00:54:00] Okay, so, what are you doing now? What kind of work are you doing now? LS: I work for the circuit court for county. JJ: Circuit court of Cook County? LS: Yeah, presently, and I -- JJ: How did you get in there? What was that? LS: How did I come about it? JJ: If it’s not personal. If it’s not personal. LS: I applied for the job. It took me a great number of years to get the job, and the requirements of getting the job was you have a college degree, and I have several of those, and I work with -- JJ: You have several college degrees? LS: I have several. JJ: I didn’t know. Where did you go to college? Tell me which school. LS: School? I went to U of I, University Without Walls, and that was gettin’ your education from protecting the job we did, once again through BUILD. JJ: Through BUILD. LS: So, yeah. JJ: So, you got BUILD to pay for it?. 53 �LS: Yeah. You know, so, you project what you can accomplish. That was how you-- JJ: (inaudible) school, yeah. LS: And the only other thing was my love for law enforcement. [00:55:00] JJ: Okay, you went for law enforcement? LS: Well, my love for, pretty much. You know, there are a lot of things that you can get credit for. JJ: Oh, that’s right. You know what? There was -- LS: University Without Walls. JJ: -- corrections. Oh, you went to University Without Walls. LS: Well, University Without Walls -- JJ: You used University Without Walls (inaudible) law enforcement degree? LS: Yeah. They have that, and so does -- JJ: ’Cause I know there were some correctional classes ’cause I took a couple with BUILD when I was there. LS: And all the years and experience I had on the street, that was -- JJ: ’Cause that’s what BUILD did. BUILD wanted to build relations with the police and with the youth, I mean, to bring people together. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: They were trying to bring people together. LS: That’s what the all-star games were about (inaudible). JJ: So, how did that work? How did that work? LS: Well, that’s always had a positive aspect. JJ: What was that? What was the all-star game (inaudible)? 54 �LS: That was with the police department, the same as at Clemente. Basketball at Clemente and baseball at (inaudible), and that’s still an annual thing that goes on. JJ: So, what were the teams? LS: The teams were a mixture of all [00:56:00] the street gangs versus the police department. JJ: Versus the police department. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, all the street gangs against the police department. LS: Well, you know, you would use the senior -- JJ: Seniors. LS: -- yeah, representing us. You have two or three guys each group like this to form one senior team, and the police department, they would recruit from either the district or several districts, and they would play against the street gang. JJ: So, one of the good things about that was that all the street gangs would have a way to get together and that they would not fight. LS: Sure. Well, you know -- JJ: (inaudible), I mean, which is good. LS: Yeah, well, actually -- JJ: (inaudible) that’s good. LS: -- that’s giving -- with street cops, that very good rapport. That doesn’t mean all cops are bad because they aren’t, you know? And they aren’t all cops that drop you in the wrong neighborhood. Okay? And, for the most part, most of the 55 �police officers who the groups participated against, they knew them on the street already ’cause they’re already (inaudible) cop, and these same kids are the groups, you know. So, that just gave us a stronger hand, more rapport, and good PR. JJ: Okay, that was good PR for [00:57:00] BUILD, and, at the same time -- LS: For the street gang and the police department. JJ: Building rapport with some of the -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- street members. LS: Yeah. Right. So -- JJ: And the street members are doing something together for a change. LS: They were doing something together because, in addition to that, their groups were there also, and that -- you got eight, nine, ten, twelve different groups there. No conflicts. JJ: Right. So, in the audience, there’s also members of the different groups. LS: That’s right, yeah. JJ: Street groups and all that. LS: Yeah. JJ: And police. LS: Yeah, and there’s no conflict. JJ: And there’s no conflict. LS: That’s right. JJ: So, it was a way for them to come together without conflict. 56 �LS: Yeah. JJ: ’Cause I remember the YMCA Detached Program did that with camp. Did you ever go to any of those camps? LS: Well, we also had -- with BUILD, we had the training things up in Saginaw, Michigan. JJ: Oh, Saginaw, Michigan. LS: Yeah, Whitehall. Whitehall, Michigan (inaudible). Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). So, Saginaw Michigan is where it was? LS: Yeah. Whitehall, Michigan, then we were in Saginaw another time for seminars. JJ: No, but wasn’t there one in Kalamazoo or something? LS: Kalamazoo? JJ: [00:58:00] Or was Saginaw? Was that the part up there? LS: I remember Whitehall, Michigan. We drove right past it one time [in ’73?]. JJ: Whitehall, Michigan? LS: Whitehall, Michigan, it was. Yeah. And that was an annual thing. It was for staff also. (inaudible). JJ: This was at Whitehall? LS: If I remember correctly, it was in Whitehall, Michigan. And we’d go up there once, twice a year. It was a staff thing there, (inaudible) staff, and perhaps your field assistant, your field worker. JJ: Was it Flint, then? Maybe it was Flint. I remember we took over a town. We went there for camp. LS: No, that wasn’t BUILD. We didn’t took over no town. 57 �JJ: No, not with BUILD. That was with the YMCA Detached Program. LS: Okay. Yeah. JJ: And we went there, and, you know, it was a camp. It was a nice camp, but then, at nighttime, we had nothing else to do, so we went to the town. LS: (inaudible). JJ: And we just took over. LS: No. JJ: I don’t mean we took over a town. I mean we -- LS: Well, you know -- JJ: We hung out at the town. LS: You know, the Y has several different Y -- JJ: It was a small town. LS: There’s Camp Bierk, Camp [Chen?]. There’s another camp also. So, we always went to -- I think it was [00:59:00] Camp Sears. JJ: These were all owned by the Y. LS: Yeah. But, also, at BUILD, we went to Camp Chen and Camp Sears also for these seminars, so they may have all been in a different town or something, but we never were taking over a town. JJ: No, I don’t mean take -- I mean we were hanging out downtown. LS: Okay. JJ: It was like we’re the only ones downtown. LS: Yeah. JJ: Not like that. I don’t mean like that. 58 �LS: Okay. JJ: So, right now, you’re working in the -- LS: Circuit court for Cook County. JJ: -- circuit court of Cook County, and what type of work do you do there? LS: Documents. JJ: Okay. What do you mean, documents? LS: Divorce. Civil. (inaudible). Eviction. (inaudible). You name it. We handle all the court documents. Criminal. Juvenile. You name it. It’s a document, it goes through the court system, we have it. We have records we keep on file. Juvenile records -- for over 20 years, we keep. All right? And I work for one of the -- my chief’s name, Dr. Bloomberg, and she’s in charge of the [01:00:00] civil division, and I work underneath her. JJ: Okay. And so, any record, whether it’s a criminal offense or (inaudible) -- LS: Anything you do. JJ: Anything we do is in there? LS: Yeah. JJ: So, my record is in there. Don’t look at my record. LS: Already saw it. We keep records on everything. Divorce, the whole shebang. Any type of violence and stuff, we have it. We have records on Al Capone. Everything. JJ: (inaudible)? LS: Yeah. (inaudible). Everything. We have every single thing. JJ: I got a couple traffic tickets. Can I get ’em cleared? 59 �LS: Sure, soon as you pay ’em. JJ: Okay. So, how long have you been there? LS: Ten years. JJ: Ten years? LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, you’re planning to kinda retire from there, or --? LS: Well, I think I’m old enough. I should do something. That’s a thing that -- JJ: So, I mean, what are your plans? I mean, what are --? LS: Oh, yeah. Well, in the near future, [01:01:00] I hopefully maybe put another couple more years in and try retiring again, as I have in the past, but this time with different goals in mind. You know, maybe I can spend more time fishing, campin’ with my grandkids, my son and his kids, and stuff like that. We’ll see what happens. But I’ll like to also -- possible -- start my own business again, and I’m not sure just what I wanna do at this point, but I go into communications or (inaudible). JJ: You had a business before? LS: I founded several companies over there. JJ: What kind of business? LS: Janitorial. JJ: Janitorial (inaudible)? LS: Yeah,[and all that stuff, you know. Entertainment and stuff like that. Bars and stuff like that. JJ: That’s right. Didn’t you do -- not janitorial. It was termite -- not termite. 60 �LS: Pesticide. JJ: What is it? LS: Pesticide. I own [a serving?] company. JJ: (inaudible) pesticide for a while. You had-- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- your own company when we were at BUILD. LS: Mm-hmm. And I’m about to go do it again, perhaps. We’ll see what happens. (inaudible) I got a whole bunch of stuff there. JJ: Okay, so you’re (inaudible). LS: [01:02:00] Yeah. I paid for the test twice last year and didn’t go. JJ: But what about customers? Where do you get customers? LS: No problem. JJ: Word of mouth? LS: That won’t be a problem. JJ: Word of mouth, or --? LS: Bids on certain things and word of mouth about the rest of ’em. JJ: Oh, so you bid to companies. LS: Yeah. Sure. You bid for stuff at bakeries, hospitals, and stuff like that. JJ: How do you bid? Do you just go to them, or --? LS: Well, you go, and find out what the requirements are, and you see what the needs are, and you put a competitive bid in, and you have to be licensed also, and bonded. JJ: Okay. Licensed and bond. So, you have to (inaudible) do that. 61 �LS: Yeah. JJ: That’s pretty expensive. LS: Money makes money. JJ: Okay. So, that’s part of the thing. LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Part of the procedure. Okay. I think, last time, we talked about -- I just wanna -we talked about how you felt about Lincoln Park changing. We talked about that, so I don’t wanna ask you that again, but I’m just trying to [01:03:00] continue to describe Lincoln Park that you remember, what you remember of Lincoln Park, so I’m trying to -- LS: As to where it is today, I think it’s changed a whole lot. It, once again, is a rich area of the city of Chicago, and, if you’re not in that bracket of dollars, you can’t afford to live there still. Even if you look to the south of the Lincoln Park area, Cabrini-Green really doesn’t exist anymore. The project houses are not there, and you got to be in the upper-middle class or over in order to live in the Near North area, period. JJ: Who do you think did that? I mean, it’s a beautiful thing, right? For some people. LS: Sure, it’s beautiful, but it also pushes people out of the areas they’ve put blood and sweat into, and their last penny. And then, once again, once you start driving them out, you drive them into an area where you can put projects up again. JJ: Okay. Well, let me ask you this other question, okay? You work at [01:04:00] Cook County. 62 �LS: For Cook County. JJ: For Cook County. There’s a lot of other people that came from our neighborhood that work for the city and Cook County and that, right? LS: Yes. JJ: They were able to get some jobs, which is fine. There’s nothing -- you know, we need jobs (inaudible). LS: We have good Latino representation and Black representation in both governments. JJ: So, (inaudible) -- LS: City, state, and government. JJ: -- we were able to get some jobs. LS: Well, we have a whole lot more than some. We just don’t have a heck of a lot. We could use a lot more. JJ: We could use a lot more. LS: But education, once again, is the key to the door. JJ: But it wasn’t only education. I mean, it was also that -- LS: Political. JJ: It was political. I mean, would you agree to that, or no? LS: Sure. JJ: Okay. So, it was political. I mean, some of it had to do with knocking on doors and stuff like that. LS: Well, knocking on doors is political. 63 �JJ: Right. That’s what I mean. That’s political. So, some of that. Some of the people from our neighborhood did that on [01:05:00] different sides. LS: Mm-hmm. JJ: Some worked for Washington. Some worked for Daley. Some -- whatever they did on different sides. Because it’s part of the democratic system in Chicago, right? LS: It’s part of the political system everywhere. JJ: Everywhere. It’s part of the political system everywhere. Okay. So, as an insider, how do other people, insiders, look at the whole question of -- LS: Patronism? JJ: -- being kicked out of Lincoln Park, and Wicker Park, and Humboldt Park? How do they look at it? LS: Well, I guess it’s go with the flow for some, for most parts. Either you’re part of or you’re not gonna be there at all, and we have enough homeless people as there is, for one thing, homeless and starving people, right here in Humboldt Park, right here in Ukrainian Village. We are having a very, very large epidemic of homeless people, and they’re Black, white, yellow, you name it. [01:06:00] But, nevertheless, we still got these high-rises going up, you know, and people losin’ their homes. Can’t afford -- and also homes bein’ foreclosed upon. I don’t have a solution for that, but, again, all the new houses and townhouses that are being built are -- JJ: No, but I’m -- LS: -- empty. 64 �JJ: I’m not asking you for a solution. I’m just saying, how do people in there look at it? You know, the Young Lords at one point were disagreeing with the mayor, Mayor Daley and that, because we thought his plan was not helping us. I mean, how did you look at it from the inside? ’Cause you were -- people had to support Mayor Daley, right? At that time. I mean, and, like you said, you have to go with the flow. LS: You should, yes. JJ: You should go with the flow. (inaudible). LS: Not necessarily meaning that you have to. JJ: No, no, but you’re saying that, sometimes, you got to go with -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- the flow. LS: Well, when it comes to the housing situation, I believe -- you know, I think that we should start [01:07:00] providing alternative housing for those people who are evicted. Okay? And, whether it be senior citizen homes, or (inaudible) housing, or whatever it may be, we, sooner or later, are going to start putting up a whole lot of alternative housing, and that -- ’cause they all have to be CHA houses because, instead of putting people on top of one another sixteen stories high, now, they’re doing three or four stories high. Okay? And that isn’t any better than doing -- JJ: But do they talk about that in there? That’s what I’m saying, the insiders. LS: I couldn’t say. I don’t have any ins and outs of the city council, and our present alderman, you know, I don’t see enough of or have any bond with him, but I do 65 �know we do have a whole lot of scattered housing in our community, and a good thing about that is people do have a place to live. A bad thing about that -JJ: Scattered housing? LS: Yes. JJ: That’s what they’re trying -- LS: Yeah. JJ: So, that serves -- LS: And the bad thing about that, though, is people who were in those tall [01:08:00] high-rises who were trouble-makers, so on and so forth, thieves and whatever it may be, they’re spread all over the place. A little bit of ’em in every community, you know? JJ: So, that’s the bad part. LS: That’s the bad part because, once again, I think that they have to -- you can’t just keep piling us on top of one another ’cause, the more you do of that -- you take the problem, and you spread it more and more out. You can’t just have scattered housing every place either because that’s not a solution. JJ: So, you can’t pile people on top of each other. LS: And you just can’t take that pile down and start spreading it from here to there because I don’t think that’s really a solution. And then, those people who are not a part of those scattered housing are homeless, and, once again, with homeless people goes crime also, and we are not workin’ enough on our crime situation, you know? Penitentiaries and institution, they’re going in, coming out. They go in criminal. They come out bigger criminals. They all don’t have jobs. [01:09:00] 66 �Our young girls are coming out still. They go on the street, and they’ll be hookers. They’re babies havin’ babies. The counseling is not being very effective. We have very, very few things that are effective to the middle class, you know? (inaudible). That’s not saving anybody. That’s not giving any additional education to mothers on pre-parent of that nature. All right? We don’t have enough schooling for our young men who can’t sing and can’t become rockstars. You know, everyone can’t be Mr. Z and the rest of these guys. We have to have alternative things for these people, and that’s a serious problem right now -- I see as being serious. I see it all -JJ: Do other people see it like that? There at the job or other jobs? LS: At that job, [01:10:00] people go to work, do their job, and come home. JJ: Okay. So -- LS: Yeah. JJ: That’s what I mean. LS: Yeah. JJ: They’re not even talking about it. LS: No. No. I mean, that’s not their job. And, therefore, they don’t see how far they have to go to do what they’re doing. They (inaudible), get the check, go home. There aren’t people out there who care any more about their community more than getting (inaudible) back out. JJ: So, do they pay any attention to -- for example, if I got a job there, I got to work for this alderman that got me in there? LS: You don’t got to. 67 �JJ: You don’t have to? Okay, but, I mean, you think -- you feel you -- they did you a favor. They got you a job. You want to help ’em out. But do they pay attention to what that alderman is saying? LS: You know, patronism is against the law. JJ: Oh, no. It is against the law now. LS: Okay? JJ: It is against the law. LS: Okay? (inaudible). JJ: But I mean at that time. I should have said “at that time.” LS: That time. Any time. It’s against the law. JJ: Okay. That time, it was against the law too? LS: It is now. JJ: But they were doin’ it then. LS: You can always have -- [01:11:00] rules are made to be broken. JJ: Okay, so, against the law, but rules are being broken. I got you. I got you. So, it’s against the law, but it still exists. LS: Rules are made to be broken. JJ: Okay. So, okay. So, those people that are in there, whatever way they got in there -- I don’t care. That’s not important. What I’m saying is I just wanna know, does it affect them? Because they know people that got kicked out of Lincoln Park, and Wicker Park, and all these other people. Do they care? LS: I think your average person cares about he and his family, she and her family. If you are a person who care about other people and can lend a helping hand, I’m 68 �quite sure 90 percent of them would, and, for the other 10 percent, they wouldn’t care one way or the other. But, then again, you also find people who are comfortable in just what they are, and where they are, and what they’re doing. [01:12:00] If they don’t make that first step to help themselves, why should the next person? You know, (inaudible). If you don’t make that effort to go on that paper route so you can get a shirt for next week, so, why should I go with the paper route for you and give you the money? That’s welfare and all the rest of that stuff, you know? And then, the system also spend that money (inaudible) for me. JJ: But are you saying that all those people that got moved out of Lincoln Park, it was their fault? LS: No. Once again, as I told you earlier, that was all about money. Real estate. Real estate, you know? You see it right now, real estate. I mean, it’s a prime thing. Real estate doesn’t depreciate. Time is -- it doesn’t depreciate, but, you know, a lot of people’s hearts, and souls, and things they put their blood and sweat into, sure does -- it hurts to lose what you’ve established. Foreclosures, [01:13:00] banking. People commit suicide. I know many people who lost their houses and stuff. I seen people in our community at home. Taxes just killed them. They pay for a house for 10, 15, 20, 30 years. Their kids have grown up, graduated, and got married. They got the house to themselves, and, all of a sudden, they lose their house because they cannot afford taxes, to pay the taxes. That’s another thing that’s killing us, and that really, really hurts, you know? I pay for a house -- 69 �JJ: The taxes? LS: The house I paid for for 30 years, and the city’s moved me out, or the bank is pulling a foreclosure, and I got my heart, and soul, and sweat into that property. All of a sudden, now, I got to sell and move. JJ: Now, you have to sell or move? LS: Sell and move. I mean, they’re takin’ my property away from me. My blood and sweat for 30 years. People kill themselves. They don’t know where to go. JJ: So, you’re losing your property right now. LS: No, not me. This is my property. All right? This is -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: [01:14:00] Yeah, this is [the equation?] I’m talking about, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) you’re talking about it as an example. LS: Yeah. JJ: You know people that that has happened to? LS: Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, (inaudible) we got hundreds of thousands of people that comes through every day like that. JJ: Oh, ’cause you deal with it evictions. LS: Paperwork. JJ: The paperwork eviction. LS: Yeah. JJ: Are there a lot of --? LS: Sure. JJ: Are there a lot of evictions? 70 �LS: Sure. Hundred thousands. JJ: Hundred thousand. LS: Hundreds of thousands. JJ: Evictions. LS: Evictions, foreclosures. They’re not one and the same. One, you be evicted by your landlord ’cause you didn’t pay. Other one, the mortgage company’s takin’ back your property. But once again, you’re in the street. JJ: So, what do you think about that? LS: I think it’s a shame. I think because the bank system knew prior to you losing your property that you bought today, in four, five years, (inaudible). It’s a shame. It is. JJ: But on the other side of the coin is that people [01:15:00] have to work. They got to survive, right? LS: People should work if you’re able to. I think you should. Everything cannot be given to you on a silver platter. JJ: What I’m saying is there’s a system set up already that’s creating that mess with the 100,000 -- LS: Yes. JJ: -- people losing their -- LS: Yes. Yes. JJ: -- houses, but -- LS: They didn’t care that -- JJ: -- the people that work within that system -- 71 �LS: Didn’t care about the people on the outside. They cared about themselves. JJ: They only care about themselves. LS: Right. JJ: Okay. And they have families, so it’s understandable. Would you say, then, that they justify it? They’re saying that it’s these people’s fault. LS: To justify a thing within our political system -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: -- there has to be a very, very strong adjustment. JJ: You have to do what? LS: Within our political system, there has to be a very, very strong adjustment made. JJ: Meaning what? What do you mean? LS: That means, in Congress, people who go out and they [01:16:00] make the laws, the banks, you know, they have to look at other alternative ways of not takin’ people’s property, and their homes, and stuff, man. There has to be somethin’ -you can’t just go and take a person’s life away from them like that. You really shouldn’t. I know people who committed suicide ’cause they lost their property. It’s a shameful thing to be done. It really is. JJ: You know personally people that have done that? LS: Yeah. Commit suicide. JJ: You’re not commit suicide, right? LS: You can’t foreclose on this. JJ: (inaudible). 72 �LS: But it’s really a shame, you know? But it’s got to get better before it gets worse off. Fingers crossed and pray [01:17:00] it’ll get better for people. JJ: It’s getting better? LS: It should get better. JJ: It should get better. LS: No, ’cause homeless is not a pretty thing. I see it around all the time. Imagine seein’ or imagine bein’ the person who hasn’t had a bath in two or three weeks, or people you see walking down the street, eating out of trash cans, or people who are so depressed, they just don’t give (inaudible). JJ: Have you seen anybody that we grew up with that is homeless? LS: I’ve seen it personally, so yeah. I live down little far from (inaudible) neighborhood there, so I don’t get around there as much as I used to or anything. Yeah, but I’ve seen people, and it’s because they do not want to do. JJ: That grew up when we grew up? LS: Mm-hmm. It’s ’cause they’re in a valley of bein’ content. They aren’t trying. I guess they are burnt out. They gave up, and they just don’t want to be. JJ: They want to stay homeless? LS: Well, that’s their choice. That’s their [01:18:00] choice. You know -- JJ: So, someone that wants to stay homeless -- do you think they have a problem, or no? I mean, maybe -- LS: I’ve been homeless. Okay? And I didn’t stop goin’ back and forth, knocking on doors, ’til I got another job, and I’ve seen people. If you’re determined to succeed or not be homeless, sky’s the limit. There is a way. All right? If you are 73 �in that valley of comfortability and you want to stay there, your choice. If you want to do better for yourself, you can. Once again, this is America. Education is a thing that one needs, and I think we’ve all been educated to the point we know that we can do better each and every day of our lives if we want to. JJ: Okay. So, you said you’ve been homeless. [01:19:00] What made you homeless? LS: System. JJ: The system? LS: And I used the system to fight back. Fight back at the system. JJ: What do you mean, the system made you homeless? LS: I have bad health, and, with that time period, I became homeless. JJ: Because of the health? LS: Because my health made me, at the time, not be able to work, and I was evicted. JJ: So, you lost your job, and then you got evicted. LS: Yeah. I lost my job with 9/11 also. JJ: What is it? LS: 9/11. JJ: During 9/11? LS: Yeah. JJ: You lost your job. LS: Yeah. I’m an electrician at the time, and God blessed me once again. You want to do better? You can. (inaudible). JJ: [01:20:00] How long were you homeless? 74 �LS: For quite some time. JJ: A few months? Years? LS: No, no. Not years. About maybe four, six months, perhaps. JJ: So, I mean, what does that mean, you were homeless? LS: That means I didn’t have a place to go and lay my head at nighttime. I had to go to someone’s house every day to shower. I had to stand in soup lines to eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That means, at nighttime, I slept on blankets and air bags on the floor. I slept in Lincoln Park. I had no income. JJ: With air bags and stuff on the floor in Lincoln Park? LS: I had slept on air bags in churches, floors. JJ: In church, okay. LS: Yeah. I slept on the ground in Lincoln Park. Smelly ground. Piss. Yes. JJ: With a blanket or without a blanket? LS: Whatever I had. (inaudible). JJ: But you ate at soup kitchens? LS: Yeah. If I can get up, come back, next person can too. JJ: [01:21:00] How’d you get out of that? LS: I never wanted to be in to start with, so, therefore, from the time it happened to me, the next day, I started pushin’ to get back on my feet. JJ: So, the very next day, you said, “I’m gonna get out of this.” LS: Never felt I really should have been there, bro, got to say. You can’t -- JJ: So, you said, “This is not me. I’m gonna (inaudible).” 75 �LS: No. It’s not. It wasn’t me. It wasn’t me. All right? And I wasn’t about to stay that way. That was not my zone of comfortability. JJ: So, the very next day, what’d you do? LS: Knock on doors. Knock on doors of those politicians, people that I felt -- knocked on doors, factories, passed out resumes, goin’ different places, lookin’ for jobs. JJ: So, you’re sleeping in Lincoln Park or in the homeless shelters. LS: Mm-hmm. JJ: But then, you’re going out to knock on doors of the politicians -- LS: The politicians, the factories, submitting resumes, and, once again, still, volunteered a little bit of time -- I felt, still, you know, I had something to offer other people. JJ: Well, that’s good. I mean, you [01:22:00] kept going. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, that definitely -- LS: Yeah. Wasn’t about to kill myself, man. (inaudible). JJ: Somebody else has to (inaudible). LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay. That’s good. That’s good. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, it’s rough times. So, then, you feel you understand what other people go through, then? LS: Oh, yeah. ’Cause you have to be a fightin’ man to survive. You got to survive. You give up, man? You’re a loser, and I never thought of seeing myself as being 76 �a loser. All right? You can lose the (inaudible) battle, but you’re gonna win the war. JJ: But you’re the winner, so you (inaudible). LS: I’m gonna win the war, bro. JJ: You believe in the war. LS: The war. You got the battle here, but the war is here. So, I lost this little bit here, but I’m gonna win (inaudible). I’m back on my feet. I have education. Education opens doors for you. JJ: But what kind of issues would get somebody to even think, homeless? I mean, were you going through a divorce or something, or --? LS: [01:23:00] No, I told you. I have a -- JJ: You were going through the health -- LS: The system that we pay into all the time deceived me, among other things. It wasn’t -- JJ: You lost your job. Your health -- LS: Well, look at it like this. 9/11 came. (inaudible) lost my job, amongst other things. JJ: I don’t understand what the connections were with 9/11. LS: Here. 9/11 came. Being electrician, a whole bunch of us got laid off, and there was not job. There was no place to go for a job. There were -- JJ: Oh, you were a electrician then. LS: Yes. JJ: And there was no jobs because of 9/11. 77 �LS: Yeah. Hundreds thousands lost their jobs. JJ: Okay. So, that’s when you lost your job. LS: That was a time of being homeless. Other than that, happened to me once-- JJ: But, being an electrician, couldn’t you get jobs at the neighborhood? LS: No. It’s not that easy. I’m a union electrician. Okay? Side jobs just don’t do it. You got to have skills for that stuff also, [01:24:00] and I have a card in my pocket still to this very day. Okay? But that’s a skilled profession. So, therefore, if you use your skills to your advantages, yeah, you’re gonna survive somewhat. You’re not back making 30, 40, 50 dollars an hour, but, you know, 10 dollars is just as good as that. We got nothing. There’s always ways to survive. JJ: Okay. So, now, you understand the homeless issue. LS: Been there. Yes. JJ: Okay. You’ve been there. So, you know, people were getting kicked out of Lincoln Park, and Wicker Park, and all these places. That created -- LS: Some homeless -- JJ: And the houses were real expensive, and, you know, somebody gets sick, they can’t pay for that. LS: Well, you know, I think, in the days that we’re speaking of, back in the ’60s, it wasn’t as horrifying then because welfare wasn’t all that bad like it is now. You can always go to a hospital, Cook County or whatever it may have been, and you would [01:25:00] survive somewhat. Homelessness today -- man, there’s about hundreds of thousands, I would say, bro. They got little groups now. They got nicknames, and they hang together and stuff. I don’t ever remember anyone -- 78 �JJ: What do you mean, they got nicknames? LS: The LB, the Latin Bombs. JJ: What, the homeless have nicknames? LS: Oh, yeah. Little groups, yeah. JJ: They, themselves, put the names, or --? LS: I wouldn’t know. JJ: So, they call themselves the Latin Bombs? LS: The Latin Bombs, you know. You got -- JJ: So, they got clubs of homeless people. LS: Yes. JJ: That’s what you’re saying. They got -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- gang members -- LS: Groups. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: -- that are -- LS: And they will fight in the soup line. They’ll push you. I mean, I’ve seen this. I’ve been in that line. JJ: Oh, I see what you’re saying. The gangs -- LS: They have a little gang within themselves. They protect themselves, and they go to the churches, and then the churches -- those people (inaudible). They go there every other day or every day. They’re living there. They get their showers, or they help them -- they [01:26:00] got breakfast in the morning, 6:30, seven o’clock, and they have to be thrown on the streets. They look for a job or 79 �whatever they’re gonna do. They come into the Salvation Army, other places, and they get lunch, and they’re in there 6:30, seven o’clock at nighttime to get a shower and a warm meal. Been there. And those who have substance abuse problems, they have programs for them also if you want to be a part of those things. If you do not want to be a part of those things, well, then, you’re on the outskirt again (inaudible). JJ: Okay. You said you’ve been there. So, I mean, you saw that. LS: I was part of it. JJ: You were part of it. LS: Yeah. JJ: But you were able to use it to the advantage of getting the heck out of there. LS: Sure. I took advantage of everything there was that I felt that helped me, benefit me, and -- JJ: What were some of the things that you did to your advantage? LS: Use my [01:27:00] skills. JJ: Use your skills. Okay. What are your skills LS: People skills. Help other people. JJ: (inaudible). LS: People skills. JJ: People skills. LS: Help other people do things. All right? Knock on doors, you know? There was a time I used to go to the daily workers things, and you get your daily pay, and you 80 �saved up every day. DHS gave me 120 days to have a job and apartment. Did that. I stayed also YMCA, the Central Park YMCA there. JJ: Okay, so, they got you -- LS: I went and asked for help. I wasn’t too ashamed to ask for help. JJ: Okay. You weren’t ashamed to help -- LS: No, not ashamed to ask for help. JJ: So, you’re saying some people were ashamed to ask for help? LS: There are agencies who will provide help for you if you seek. It’s not like saying - JJ: But some people are ashamed to? LS: I don’t know if they’re ashamed or not, but I’m not used to sleepin’ in the street either. JJ: Okay, so, it’s either -- LS: I [01:28:00] still -- JJ: -- sleep on the street or ask for help. LS: I feel, with the skills I have, I can find a job, and I went and asked for help, and they sent me to a place that would give me help, and, through my time, from seven in the morning ’til (inaudible) at nighttime, I knocked on doors. I went places. I took resumes, seeking jobs. All right? I did little side things that I had to that were my skills. If there was a carpenter that needed help that day, I go out, whatever it may have been, and I saved my little money, and, within that 120 days they gave me to get myself settled, I was out of that place in 90 days. 81 �JJ: Okay. So, you got out of there in 90 days. By the fourth month, you were doing better. LS: I asked for the extra month to save money so I can get a car. JJ: Okay, so -- LS: And they tell me (inaudible), and they allowed me that month. JJ: Okay, so that was good. LS: (inaudible). JJ: So, you had some skills. LS: Everyone has skills. It’s a matter of using them to your advantage. JJ: Everyone has skills? LS: Everybody has skills. JJ: Some people -- I mean, everyone [01:29:00] has skills? Okay. That’s what you’re saying? I’m not arguing. LS: Everybody has skills. JJ: Okay. So, what do you mean? So, why are some people still there? LS: They don’t want to utilize them. You know, by having skills, we all can listen. We talk. Use the hammer. (inaudible) skills. (inaudible). Skills. JJ: Everybody has skills, but some people can see them, and some people can’t? LS: Some people don’t want to use their skills, and some people -- JJ: Oh, some people don’t want to use them. LS: Don’t want to use them, and others who are content with freeloading the system. JJ: Okay. So, that’s good. So, I think that’s -- but, I mean, I still see some -- you know, for example, there’s some people -- in Michigan, they cut welfare, right? 82 �And then, I knew some people that didn’t -- they had [01:30:00] skills, good skills, but they didn’t -- their English wasn’t that well. I mean, so, that hampered them. That got them in -- and I felt very sorry for them because they were on welfare, and, now, they got cut off overnight. LS: You know -- JJ: Which means that they were gonna be homeless. LS: It didn’t just happen overnight, though. JJ: No, no, (inaudible) -- LS: They knew it was comin’. They knew it was comin’. JJ: Well, no. They talked about it, said it was coming, but what could they do? Did that happen here, or no? LS: Well, no. Welfare still exists here, but it’s a matter of time. I know people who say, “Oh, yeah, go ahead and (inaudible). Welfare’ll take care of you.” And I’m like, that’s my tax money. Person freeloads, you know? I’m very conscious of stuff like that. I support anybody who work. We support lots and lots of thousands of peoples on social security and on welfare. Now, I was sick. (inaudible) give me nothin’ while I’m out from my surgery. [01:31:00] When I have a problem, I’m over-educated or I make too much money. That’s my own money, you know? But, for a person who doesn’t really need or don’t -- they get it just like that. I think that’s unfair also. JJ: So, you’re saying everybody’s the same. Everybody has skills. LS: Everyone has some type of a skill. JJ: Everybody can make it if they want to. 83 �LS: Everyone has some type of -- [not?] everyone can make it, but -- JJ: You don’t see that, sometimes, they just cut people off? LS: Sure. JJ: Okay. Like, when they -- LS: Sure. There are people who get cut off ’cause you didn’t dot the i or cross the t. Yeah, I think I’ve seen that too. JJ: Okay. So, they got cut off, but it’s their fault? LS: Not always, no. JJ: Okay. I’m just -- LS: Not always. No, no, no, no, no. And, you know, the system’s made to help you, and the system’s also made to put a cork in your screw. That’s what you -[01:32:00] the guidelines. Check ’em good, you know? Cross those i’s and dot those t’s. That person -- “I got my job. (inaudible).” Seen that happen lots of times. Go to church. Get educated. Help somebody else out. (inaudible). This is America, man. This is America. There’s no other country in the world like this one. I think we all know that. And still, yet, education is the key, and, for those of us or them who can’t get a good education and who have problems speaking our language (inaudible), don’t sit down on the corner and say, “Yeah, I got to make something here.” Use it. Grow. Be hungry for knowledge. You can’t lose. And, if you slip, get back up and go again. That’s my belief. JJ: Okay. [01:33:00] Any final thoughts? LS: Yeah. God bless us all, man. JJ: What is it? 84 �LS: May God bless us all. JJ: May God bless us all? LS: Yeah. JJ: That’s it? LS: You ain’t gonna change. I ain’t gonna change. (laughter) JJ: Okay. All right. Thanks. END OF AUDIO FILE 85 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d42b8ef7025ca77c6d3d8df30d4cc5a.mp4 1dfb4f3e4ce481f0b2188182d1d411f6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Lacey Smith vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Lacey Smith, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 12/14/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Smith_Lacey_2 Title A name given to the resource Lacey Smith video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Lacey Description An account of the resource Oral history of Lacey Smith, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 12/14/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1149edba19926cfacd2dd72fe0686e0.mp4 ae0aa6b54db8c78fb606f16f932dde25 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b174a25de53ed2eab030c41bbe91320c.pdf a34db2c8b2e12c97fc3097d3e1beec52 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project War/Era: WWII Era Name: Mabelle "Barry" Vincent Smith Interviewer: Elaine Schneider Interview Length: (00:52:05:00) Early Life (00:00:20:00)  Smith was born in Syracuse, New York on April 23rd, 1920. (00:00:22:00)  Smith had two brothers, both of whom were pilots in World War I. (00:00:28:00)  Smith’s mother was a full- time housewife and her father worked in an office until the Great Depression caused him to lose his job. (00:00:50:00) o The family moved to Chittenango, New York where Smith’s father began a new job as a milk deliverer. (00:01:05:00)  Smith attended school in Chittenango until she was a freshman in High School until her family relocated again, this time to Houston, Texas. (00:01:30:00) o She was sad to leave her home in Chittenango, which was a farmhouse with a barn on 4 acres of land. The family’s self- sufficient farming lifestyle made it so that “the depression didn’t affect us too much”. (00:01:50:00) o The family moved to Houston to search for a better work opportunity for Smith’s father, but he didn’t find anything so they returned to Chittenango. (00:02:20:00)  Smith graduated from Central High School in Syracuse. (00:02:45:00)  Within a year of graduating high school, Smith got an office job at a telephone company. She remained there for two and a half years. (00:03:00:00) Training (00:03:15:00)  Smith’s brother was a pilot in the Air Force prior to the attacks on Pearl Harbor in 1942 and strongly encouraged his sister to join. (00:03:38:00) o Her brother wrote to her while deployed and told her that a woman needed 35 hours of flying time to be considered by the Air Force. Smith immediately began making phone calls to figure out who could teach her to fly. (00:03:50:00)  Smith received flying instruction from Amboy Airport, located in Syracuse. She was able to fund her own lessons because she had a steady job. (00:03:50:00)  Smith flew two- seater aircraft during her training. (00:05:00:00)  After logging 8 hours of flying time, she went to Canastota, New York to seek further flying instruction. (00:05:05:00)  Smith had to hitchhike or walk to all of her flying lessons because she had no personal mode of transportation. (00:05:30:00)  Smith was offered a job testing radar by flying around for 2-3 hour periods. This was a dual- benefit for her because she was able to get her last 15 hours of flying time in and she was getting paid. (00:05:45:00)  Smith says that the demand for women pilots can be explained by the lessened availability of men who were being drafted and sent overseas. Being a pilot required more training and American men simply did not have time for that. (00:08:05:00) �   25,000 women were interviewed by the United States Air Force for piloting positions. Only 1,830 were interviewed and 1,074 actually became pilots. These women came to be known as the Women’s Air Force Service Pilots or “WASP”. (00:08:30:00) o Once accepted, the women had to log 30 hours in each of three planes: “The Stearman”, the BT- 13 Valiant, and the AT-6 Texan. (00:09:00:00) o Smith was sent to Avenger Field, located in Sweetwater, Texas. (00:09:30:00) Smith was asked to wear a white shirt and khaki pants when required to “dress- up”. Other than such occasions, members of WASP did not have an official uniform. This was so because up until that point in time, only men had been in the Air Force and there was no dress code created for women. (00:09:35:00) There were three types of training that members of WASP received: primary, basic, and advanced. (00:10:45:00) o Smith used the Stearman and various other small airplanes in both solo and dual flying lessons. This comprised her “primary training” and her “basic training”. (00:11:00:00) o After flying the smaller planes, Smith was introduced to the AT-6 jets. She was told that “if you can fly an AT-6, you can fly any plane”. This was her “basic training”. (00:12:00:00) o Intertwined in the primary, basic, and advanced training Smith received calisthenics as well. Each day she awoke at 6 A.M. and completed 4 hours of flight training, 1 hour of exercise, and 1 hour of marching along with three scheduled meals. (00:13:10:00) Active WASP Membership (00:14:10:00)  After Smith got her “wings” at Avenger Field, she traveled to Waco, Texas. (00:14:00:00) o All WASP members were given official winter and summer uniforms made by Bergdorf Goodman after getting their “wings”. (00:14:45:00) o She was stationed at Lackland Army Air Field as a test pilot for her first assignment. This base was home to hundreds of male cadets who were learning to fly in combat. Smith was in charge of test- driving Beechcraft AT-10 Wichita planes. (00:15:45:00) o The test- drives started with a 3- hour ride followed by a meeting with the mechanics for additional input on the specific plane’s functionality. (00:18:10:00)  Smith remembers that the barracks at Lackland were very nice. Each WASP had her own room within the barracks, which were shared with the army nurses. (00:18:48:00)  Smith also had to test UC-78’s, which were twin- engine advanced trainer aircrafts. Many of these aircraft were thought to be obsolete when they were brought to Lackland. (00:20:40:00)  There were 38 WASPS killed during the two years and two months that WASP was part of the Army Air Corps. Smith was a WASP for one year. (00:21:48:00) o Although she only spent a very short time as a WASP, Smith wanted to spend her entire life there. (00:23:22:00) WASP Retirement (00:23:30:00)  WASP was disbanded on December 20th, 1944. (00:23:38:00) �         On December 19th, 1944- the day before WASP was disbanded- Smith was asked to fly to Columbus, Ohio as Sergeant right away. (00:24:41:00) o Smith stopped in Memphis, Tennessee to get fuel and arrived in Columbus at 9 or 10 P.M. (00:25:00:00) o She slept overnight in the plane and then went to the operations office first thing the next morning. A young man was waiting to be taken to Memphis and it was Smith’s duty to escort him there. (00:25:20:00) Smith arrived again in Memphis but was not permitted to retreat back to Texas until the plane she was flying had a 100- mile check. She was stuck there for three days, until December 23rd. (00:26:10:00) o Because WASP was disbanded on the 20th, Smith was the last one to return home. (00:26:40:00) Smith had trouble looking for a job after WASP was disaffiliated because women weren’t typically hired for the jobs that she most wanted to do, such as commercial piloting or flying instruction. (00:28:20:00) Smith decided to take a bus to Sebring, Florida to spend some time on her mother’s cattle ranch while she tried to make the next life decision. (00:28:30:00) o She reunited with Lester; a Marine that she met when she was working in Texas. He was permitted a 10- day leave and spent it with her in Florida He asked Smith to marry him before he returned to service. (00:28::00) After Lester returned to duty, Smith went back to her hometown of Chittenango. (00:31:11:00) o On her way back, she decided to stop in Williamsburg, Virginia to see her fiance, who was stationed there. When she got off the bus, Lester was waiting for her. The couple decided to marry right then and there instead of waiting for his retirement. They went to the local Presbyterian Church and made their marriage official. (00:31:25:00) Smith decided to stay in Virginia and seek work there. She was able to get a job at a local air base as a secretary. (00:33:05:00) o Each day, she met with her husband at 5:00 P.M. at the local USO and they walked together to the room that they were renting out of a nearby house. (00:33:20:00) In July of 1945, Smith was forced to move back Syracuse because her husband had to start training to invade Japan. (00:33:50:00) o She got a job at a local jewelry store. (00:33:57:00) Lester finally came home on September 1st, 1945. (00:34:12:00) o His uncle worked for a typewriter company and he decided that he would take two months off before starting work. (00:34:30:00) o Les and Smith spent the two- month vacation at Smith’s family ranch. (00:34:43:00) When Smith and Lester returned home, they lived in Lester’s family home. (00:37:10:00) o The couple remained in Chittenango for 6 years and had two children. (00:37:20:00) o Lester was later transferred to Indianapolis, Indiana as branch manager of his uncle’s typewriter company. (00:37:22:00) �      o Later, the couple had another two children. They stayed in Indianapolis from 1950 to 1985, until Lester finally retired. (00:37:30:00) After Lester retired, the family moved down to Smith’s mother’s ranch again. (00:37:42:00) One of their children went into the 101st Airborne Division in the Korean War, another became a Pan Am flight attendant, another went to Medical School in Indiana for nursing, and another went to Purdue to become a pilot and eventually went into the Air Force. (00:38:38:00) In 1977, Smith was officially recognized as a veteran of the United States Air Force. (00:41:46:00) Smith received the Congressional Gold Medal for her participation in WASP. (00:42:00:00) Smith is often invited to air shows and to give speeches in light of her accomplishments. (00:49:00:00) Smith notes that being a WASP was “the most wonderful experience a woman could have”. (00:51:02:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmithM1560V Title A name given to the resource Smith, Mabelle Vincent (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Mabelle Vincent Description An account of the resource Mabelle "Barry" Vincent Smith was born in Syracuse, New York in 1920. Her two older brothers were pilots during World War I, and encouraged her to learn to fly. She took flying lessons, and then enlisted in the WASP program during World War II, primarily as a flight instructor at Lackland Army Air Force base in San Antonio, and served with it for a year until it disbanded late in 1944. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Snyder, Elaine (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Forces Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-10 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5c08ccce7b9db397fae67c20ad10861f.mp4 2035b544ee8ae297d017966dd084898a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b5423e948a47f625bee283fe5e6dc32.pdf 02967b0f8cd7e8cd5d1ee5fd6b8d31a0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of Interviewee: Richard LaVern Smith Name of War: Other veterans & civilians Length of Interview: (00:09:23) Interview Notes Pre-Enlistment -Richard Smith, born in Hilliards, MI (0:20) -Enlisted just after high school (0:40) - Decided to in to the Army, did not think about any other branch of service (1:00) - Served between the Korean and Vietnam wars (3:15) Training - Fort Leonard Wood, MO by train (1:30) Issued clothes, took tests (1:40) Then went to basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, as well (1:55) Lots of hiking and discipline, learned hand to hand combat and how to shoot a rifle (2:15) Trained in the motor pool, did a lot of driving and mechanical work (2:50) Enlistment - Stationed at Fort Leonard Wood MO; Fort Eustis, VA; and a fort in Kansas (3:30) Mostly did mechanical work and drove troops to their various activities (3:45) Was released from the service in 1957, was placed into Active Reserves for four years (4:15) Married while in Active reserves (5:30) Made many friends in the Army, but did not keep up with them after discharged (5:50) Kept in contact with loved ones with letters (6:15) Post-Enlisment - Saw a lot of demonstrators demonstrating against the Vietnam war (5:00) - Everyone should support the troops, even if they don’t support the reason they are in service (7:00) - Young people should learn discipline, and can get that and education in the military (7:30) - Learned good work habits in the military, and that stayed with Richard throughout his life (8:55) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmithR Title A name given to the resource Smith, Richard LaVern (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Richard LaVern Description An account of the resource Richard Smith enlisted in the United States Army shortly after he graduated from high school. He served in the motor pool at various bases throughout the United States, including Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri and Fort Eustis in Virginia. Upon his release from the Army in 1957, he continued his service by way of the active reserves until he was released from that service. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Oatmen, Brad A. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-30 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ef5c603f2a3bec79c5c9d13a575c4f9.mp4 7054adf20b2a18ea489e79a9f7abae38 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b93d7501e76d4408f9f476e72b2d35a0.pdf f4248f9967b5831b0c41e01dd221e307 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert M. Smith Date of Interview: 04-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: To being with if you could tell us in as much detail as you want, what were you doing before you even heard about the opportunity in China with the AVG? R.M. SMITH: Well, I'd gone to school in Kansas, I went to Kansas State and while I was there I got interested in radio, radio writing and the local station, KSAC and real interested and did quite a bit of work, mostly dramatic, mostly historical stuff. Then my folks were in Colorado and I went out there one summer and with the help of Doc Summers, a Professor of public speaking, I got a job at the local radio station and I hadn't graduated, I still needed a semester. So here I was a radio announcer for a couple of years. I used to go out with my girl and the chief engineer and his girl and we'd practice code and drink some kind of Catawba wine I remember and so I got interested and picked up a little code speed. Then towards the end of 1939 I came out to California and tried to crack Hollywood, but I got three interviews for radio announcer, but I flubbed them, I was nervous so I decided I wasn't gonna do that, knew a war was coming. So in January 1940 I decided I was gonna enlist in the Army. My ROTC was Army. So I went down to Fort MacArthur and the Sergeant down there looked at me and he said "I'm gonna put you in the Air Force." So January of 1940 I was sent up to Moffett Field for basic. But they didn't have any uniforms for us and they didn't have any shoes, so we spent the six weeks basic mostly in the barracks. Then they sent us up to �Hamilton Field for the 20th Pursuit Group and I remember when I was interviewed by an old Major - he was at least must have been 40 - he looked at my record and said "Well son, you can go to Randolph Field, you've got two years of college. You don't have to pass the mental, just the physical." I said "Well I don't think I can pass the physical because one eye is 20-30." And he leaned back and he said "Well, maybe it's just as well. I'm the only one left out of my class at Randolph." Anyway they split the 20th Pursuit Group into the 35th, so there were 3 more squadrons, 2 more group headquarters, this happened about a year later. In the meantime, I'd practiced total out on the squadron school and studied and I was able to pass the various exams, so I passed the exam for Air Mechanic First Class, which paid Tech Sergeant's pay. When they split, of course there were all kinds of openings. So I got here a year later, I was Buck Sergeant drawing Tech Sergeant's pay and that's when they came around in April of '41 recruiting for the AVG and boy that sounded fine - $300.00 a month for a radioman. FRANK BORING: What was your first encounter with it? Did you find it by a newspaper? By word of mouth, how did you find about AVG? R.M. SMITH: Oh it was word of mouth. The word was going from here to here to there. So they told me - I've even forgotten who I talked to. So I went in and presented myself and he said "Fine, you want to go fine. You're a Radioman." But I was a radio operator really, not a mechanic. FRANK BORING: What did they tell you your responsibilities were gonna be and where you were gonna go and the purpose of why you were going? R.M. SMITH: Well they told us we were going to protect the Burma Road. They may have told pilots more than they told us, but I had no - I realized it was going to be a war situation, I had no illusions about an easy peace time job. I knew what we'd probably be getting into so that didn't particularly worry me. I was just glad to go. �FRANK BORING: What did you know about the Chinese at that time and later the Japanese at that time? R.M. SMITH: Nothing really. Nothing except what one reads or picks up, but nothing about China, nothing about Japan. It was just romance. (break) FRANK BORING: Once again, what did you know about China at that time and what did you know about the Japanese at that time? R.M.SMITH: Well I really didn't know anything about the Chinese or Japan except what one reads in the newspapers. I knew of course that there'd been a war since 1937 and they'd been fighting the Japanese, but I didn't have any real detailed - I was of course pro Chinese. I think most Americans were at the time, but I really didn't know any detail at all. FRANK BORING: Why did you want to go? R.M. SMITH: It was adventure. I would have gone for $100 dollars a month. It was $300 a month and it was a chance to see the world. I was just happy to go. FRANK BORING: Once you'd made the decision to go, could you explain to us the procedure of getting out of the military and joining up with the AVG and any difficulties you may have had. R.M. SMITH: Well I didn't have any difficulty at all in getting out of the service. Apparently when I put in for my discharge, there was no argument at all because I think our C.O. was, by the way, Colonel Aker, later General Aker. But Arvol Miller, who was another Radioman, heard that I was going so he went in and said "Hey, I want to go too." And Aker heard about and says "No way, they're taking enough of our Radiomen." So the interviewer for the AVG, he got on the horn to Washington and radiogram came back or telegram came back saying "Release Arvol Miller, so he was released. �FRANK BORING: What was the next step in terms of your leaving the military, where did you go next to join up with the AVG? R.M. SMITH: I was discharged from the Army Air Corps on June 26, 191. My mother was living down in Los Angeles, so I went down to Los Angeles for a few days and then a week or two later I caught a train in Union Station up to San Francisco. I remember my uncle, William Dutton, came down, my mother's brother came down to see me off and I heard later he turned to my mother and he said "We'll never see that boy again." Well, he was partially right because he died before I got back to the States. But then we went up to - Jim Music, I met him on the train, he and I went up together to San Francisco and they had reservations for us in a hotel there I've forgotten the name now, but we stayed there for several days until the 10th of July and on the 10th we sailed from San Francisco. I remember because it was my brother Philip's birthday. FRANK BORING: What did you tell your mom about your going? R.M. SMITH: Well I told my mother the truth and my mother was always one of these women who would say "Well if you want to do it, go ahead." I didn't have any problems at all and also I made an allotment out so that my mother had an income while I was in the service - while I was over in China. I had no objection and later my mother and father were both very proud of the fact that I'd been there. Mother made many little talks at Ladies Aid or something showing various things that I brought back from China. FRANK BORING: You're staying in this hotel in San Francisco. This is when you're meeting a lot of the AVG at this time, a lot of the Tigers were showing up at this time. Could you describe your arrival there and your meeting these guys and hearing what they were saying about any of that? �R.M. SMITH: There were quite a bunch of us that got together at the hotel in San Francisco. There were 123, I think, of pilots and ground people and there was quite a bit of drinking and talking, but I don't remember anything in particular that we talked about. FRANK BORING: How did you react to being in the presence of a bunch of guys all going off to China? Did you hear different reasons why they were going or - what was the main subject of conversation that you guys were talking about? R.M. SMITH: I really can't recall anything particular. It's been so long, I just don't remember FRANK BORING: Was there a sense of excitement? Was there a sense of danger? R.M. SMITH: Well there was quite a feeling of excitement - all of us were real happy to go. We were looking forward to it, it was a great adventure. We were a little dubious about some of the things that had been promised or the rumors that got around, but I don't think anyone would have turned around and gone back to the service. FRANK BORING: What kind of doubts did you have? What were some of these rumors that you're referring to? R.M. SMITH: There was a rumor that the pilots would be paid $500.00 a month for every plane shot down, this went around. And there was some doubt about that, some of them really didn't think that they would do it. (break) R.M. SMITH: One of the doubts was that the - particularly from the pilots - that they really didn't believe that they were going to be paid $500.00 for every plane they shot down. They were a little dubious on that. Generally, there was some speculation. �FRANK BORING: I know later on these things were brought up, but did you at that time think that you were a mercenary or going to a foreign country to fight under a foreign flag or did you think in terms of you were just an American getting into the war before America got in the war? What were your feelings at that time? R.M. SMITH: I realized at the time that I was a mercenary and that didn't bother me a bit. When we got to China - or not to China - when we got to Toungoo in Rangoon, we were required or asked to sign a piece of paper that put us in the Chinese Air Force and I had no objection to that at all. Although some of the fellows kind of cried a little bit or objected, but I didn't - it didn't bother me. FRANK BORING: From San Francisco you boarded a ship? R.M. SMITH: We boarded the Jaegersfontein in San Francisco. It was a Dutch ship out of Java. All of the servants aboard were Javanese, wearing their skirts and the turbans and were very colorful. The food was good, it had a bar, you could charge, sign your name. In 35 days at sea I don't think we ran out of booze at all. FRANK BORING: Can you describe for us perhaps some of the incidents that may have happened on the ship? R.M. SMITH: Well the happiest place of course was the bar and we played bridge, we played a lot of bridge and there were poker games going on all the way across. We were rather packed. The rooms were designed for two people, but they put extra cots in so generally most rooms had three, so they were a little crowded. But the service was good and we were treated well. FRANK BORING: As I understand it, you all had different occupations on your passports. I wonder if you could comment on that particular bit? R.M. SMITH: I of course was listed as a radio announcer, but I had been a radio announcer. But some of the other fellows who hadn't had any �civilian jobs at all, they had to make something up. So they did with some imagination. FRANK BORING: What about your fellow passengers? Was there any interaction between the AVG group and the other people that were on the ship? R.M. SMITH: All the first class passengers were AVG. There was some steerage there and there were some Chinese there - some Chinese very educated - one of which gave lessons in Chinese for us for $1.00 a lesson and I took those lessons and quite a few of us did while we were on the ship. FRANK BORING: You said that people made up occupations could you give us…? R.M. SMITH: Gosh I don't remember. There's other books that tell this but we didn't see each other's passport or look at it. FRANK BORING: Did you have to maintain any kind of secrecy while you were in San Francisco? Were you aware of anything like that? R.M. SMITH: We weren't aware of any secrecy at all. I think we were told to keep quiet about what we were doing, but I don't remember anything particular. We didn't associate with any other civilians, mostly within ourselves. But I know there were a lot of rumors going around. FRANK BORING: Once you were on the ship, you were starting to get to know some of these guys that you were eventually going to become very good friends with. Could you let us know what that was like to get to know some of these people that were from all over the country and any ones in particular that you became close to, starting on the trip on the ship? Were there any of the AVG guys that stuck out that you personally, in terms of developing a friendship that eventually lasted into China and beyond? �R.M. SMITH: Most of the close friends I made in the AVG, came on other ships and the only one that I knew fairly well on the ship, a guy named Hauser, because I played bridge with him, he quit early. But the ones that I really got to associate and made good friends, lasting friends, came on other ships. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_M_1991-04-25_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert M. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-25 Title A name given to the resource Robert M. Smith interview (video and transcript, 1 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert M. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Smith served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Communications Specialist. In this tape, Smith discusses his background in the Army Air Corps prior to joining the American Volunteer Group and his journey overseas aboard the Jaegersfontein. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd2bc36b792cfa2992837958980b5649.mp4 f302b83ea5081aa88cf66b82060720b8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee04d71680bb96922925b184183b524c.pdf 72896b8007842e20a018a644767165aa PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert M. Smith Date of Interview: 04-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: Once you were on the ship there were some frequent stops on your way before you arrived in Rangoon, are there any particular places that you stopped off that you thought were of particular interest? R.M. SMITH: On the trip from San Francisco, our first stop was Honolulu. We went in there in the afternoon and we were given leave and then sailed the next morning. Honolulu was a Navy town, lots of sailors around and I did a little shopping. I bought a diary, a bound ledger which I used for a diary, I bought half a dozen Hawaiian shirts which I wore later in China and then had a drink or two and then back to the ship. Our next stop - well, after we left Honolulu after the first day or so, we picked up two Navy cruisers, the Salt Lake City and the North Hampton, who convoyed us then down straight south, southwest into eventually the straits between New Guinea and Java and then the Salt Lake City and the North Hampton dropped us and we were picked up by a Dutch gunboat that took us into Singapore. FRANK BORING: I think there was some reference "Maverick War" maybe came from your diary about the night life in Honolulu. R.M. SMITH: The night life in Honolulu - it was the 15th of the month and that was Navy pay day and the Navy was out in force and they were at the local houses of ill repute, lining up in lines. Of course my group were mostly Army and we were looking down on these �Navy men for their crude approach. But I guess when you're in a sailor's town - that's about all I remember of that. FRANK BORING: When you arrived in Singapore, I noticed in your diary you had a great deal about Singapore. What was your impression upon arriving there and how long did you stay and what were some of the things you did? R.M. SMITH: When we got to Singapore, we only stayed there about 24 hours. It had been planned that we'd stay there a week or two and then go up north to Burma by railroad. But the first 30 of the AVG had been there a couple of weeks before and they had really torn up the town. They advertised in the local paper a beauty contest to attract good looking young Asian girls, they were obstreperous to say the least, so when they heard that we had hit town, 123 of us, the local authorities said no way and so they ordered the Dutch Captain of the Jaegersfontein to take us up to Rangoon, which took another five days. But we did get shore leave. We got 24 hours, that night we went ashore. We didn't stay at a hotel, we just came back around midnight. But, as I remember, Singapore, it was a dirty town. Open sewers - I understand it's cleaned up now - but it smelled. The canals that went through it, the odor was so bad that we held our noses and ran to get away from the canal. It was - little kids crapping in the street - it was a cultural shock. When the Navy - I mean the British came aboard our ship, they were dressed in typical tropical with light shorts and high stockings and our guys whistled at them, they'd never seen them, we didn't wear shorts in the States in 1941 - men didn't wear shorts. But later, when we were in Burma, not only did our guys all start wearing shorts, but they didn't wear the real neat shorts like the British did, they wore shorts that were cut up fairly high. But it was a cultural shock for us - it was a real cultural shock to see the different peoples, the various races, Indians, Malays, British, Australian, Chinese incredible - it was incredible. �FRANK BORING: You also mentioned that another thing about Singapore that upset you was the selling of the daughters for sexual purposes. R.M. SMITH: When one of our men reported, we got back to the ship - that the apparently a native husband had sold his wife - because when he got up in the morning, the husband was sleeping outside the door of the bedroom. Their customs were somewhat different. FRANK BORING: What was your first impression on arriving in Rangoon? What can you describe for us about the arrival there? Because this was your first train - you went to Rangoon and then to Toungoo? First was Rangoon though, right? R.M. SMITH: Yes, we arrived in Rangoon, I think it was the 23rd of August and the ship did not go up and dock at docks, it anchored out in the harbor and we went ashore on Lighters and our baggage was taken ashore. This was in the morning, so they took us to a hotel and fed us a breakfast around 10 o'clock in the morning, then they put us on the local railroad, local train, which was a narrow gauge train that ran north from Rangoon through Toungoo and then eventually up to Lashio. So we got into Toungoo sometime late in the afternoon and I'll never forget old Walter Dolan, my old buddy, the first time I saw him he was part of the first 30 group and he was out there in a pair of white duck trousers, a sun helmet, carrying a stick and he watched us come in and he said "Welcome suckers" and I remember that pair of white ducks because I bought them from him later for $5.00 because he couldn't wear them anymore and they had a 30 inch waist, which I couldn't use today. FRANK BORING: From Rangoon, what was the next stop? Where did you go from there? R.M. SMITH: From Rangoon we went up to Toungoo which was a small town in the central Burma plains and the airport was about 7 miles out of town, Keydaw Airport. Toungoo had one place to eat, the railroad �station, and some Baptist Missionaries. I remember I bought from them a Burmese grammar to study Burmese. FRANK BORING: Give us your impressions of your arrival there. What were the living conditions like? What was the weather like? What was the atmosphere like? R.M. SMITH: We were in Toungoo in central Burma in the middle of August, it is hot, the first thing that we noticed was the horrible, oppressive heat. Our barracks were built for the British. Teak wood with a veranda, porch, on one side. The beds all had a nice little sticker on them saying "On his Majesty's Service," but this airfield was built for the British but they were not using it, so they turned it over to us as a gesture because Chennault did not want to start training up in China because Burma, at that time was neutral and it was a safer and better place to train than China itself, where we could have been subjected immediately to air raids and many of our pilots had never blown a P-40. FRANK BORING: What were the barracks like? Could you describe a little bit more in detail what the barracks were like? R.M. SMITH: The barracks were made of teak, the roof was a thatched roof, they had lots of bugs in them, we had mosquito bars over the barracks and when we'd go to bed at night, I'd always take my clothes inside to keep various odd creatures from getting in them. Then the first thing I'd do when I dressed in the morning was to knock out my shoes to be sure that I didn't have anything in there before I put my feet in them. FRANK BORING: Were there any incidents you could recall - one of the things that was mentioned in one of the books was snakes would sometimes run through the barracks. Were there any incidents that you can recall that happened in the barracks along that line? �R.M. SMITH: I don't remember any snakes in the barracks, but I do remember almost stepping on a crate one night as I was going over to the mess hall and we heard some real nice stories about the crate. They said if you're bitten by it, you had 90 seconds to live and they tell a story of a Gurkha who was bit in the hand and with one motion he took his knife and cut his hand off in order to save his life. A crate is a very poisonous snake, not too long. FRANK BORING: That story is powerful. This time explain what the crate is though. R.M. SMITH: There was a story about the Gurkha who was bitten by a crate. Now a crate is one of the most poisonous snakes in Southeast Asia. It's not very long, it has colors of red and yellow on it. They tell the story of a Gurkha who was bitten by the crate - when you're bitten you have 90 seconds before you die - so with one motion the Gurkha grabbed his knife and cut off his hand in order to save his life. FRANK BORING: What were your immediate duties, if you will, once you arrived there? What was your job, what were you supposed to be doing? R.M. SMITH: The first job that I had when I got there was - since I was a radioman - was to tear out all the wiring in the P-40 planes that we had, because they were wired for British radios because these had been designed to go to Britain. But we didn't have the British radios, so we had to tear out the wiring and re-wire them for an RCA 7H. I think it was a radio that was designed for Piper Cubs. The radios had - I think 24 volt batteries in the planes - but the radios were 12 volt, so we had to tap half the side of the battery in order to run the radio. Now this runs down the battery on one side and out the other, which doesn't do any good for the batteries and makes the crew chief very, very unhappy. Crew chiefs were always chewing out the radiomen because of their damn radios. So we set up a little shed near the field and we had a battery charger there and we had many batteries and we were always charging batteries. �FRANK BORING: When was your first meetings with the official AVG people, for example Chennault or Greenlaw or any of these people? When did you first meet these people? R.M. SMITH: When I got to Toungoo, I never really met Chennault while I was there. I saw him at a distance. I saw various people, but most of my contact was with Parker Dupouy who was appointed Communications Officer and so he was the one that I talked to and that I reported to. FRANK BORING: During your stay in Toungoo, besides putting the radios in - or is that all you did during that period of time? Were there other things that you had to do besides the radios? R.M. SMITH: Besides that I was put in charge of communication supply while I was in Toungoo and one of my jobs was to try to scrounge tools and any spare parts that I could get locally in the local town of Toungoo. I remember the day before - the day Pearl Harbor when we heard about it, I had been planning to go to Toungoo to go around the various shops and markets and scrounge tools and I though well I might as well go, I think we're gonna need them worse than ever now, so I did. FRANK BORING: What's involved with scrounging? What do you mean by scrounging? R.M. SMITH: Scrounging is an old Army term meaning going out and get by any means - fair or foul - whatever you need for tools, food, whatever. FRANK BORING: So for example if you went into Toungoo to get radio parts or something like that, where would you look for that? R.M. SMITH: There were thieves' markets in Toungoo. There used to be jokes that if something was stolen from you, go down there the next day and you can buy it back. You would see - they would sell - I bought pliers there, screwdrivers, various odds and ends. Whatever �was around. We'd buy things there that here in the States that we'd probably throw away, we wouldn't bother with. FRANK BORING: What was the supply situation like in Toungoo in terms of you have a problem with fixing something because of a tool - could you just ask Parker Dupouy and he'd be able to provide you with the equipment? How did you go about - I guess what I'm trying to get is this idea of - you didn't have a Sears and Roebuck that you could just order out of - what was the supply situation like? R.M. SMITH: One of the big problems in our supply situation was that we did not have any spare parts at all and very little proviso for them. We had 100 P-40's, one of which dropped in the bay at Rangoon, so absolutely no spare parts. There were no tires, no extra tires or anything. So when a plane crashed and we had quite a few accidents, we'd use the plane to the part various parts for repair. Later on they did find from the Philippines and from Singapore, they did find some spare tires and some various other things. In fact, Joe Alsop, that was his main job there to scrounge around the various parts of the Far East looking for spare parts. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_M_1991-04-25_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert M. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-25 Title A name given to the resource Robert M. Smith interview (video and transcript, 2 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert M. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Smith served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Communications Specialist. In this tape, Smith describes the journey overseas with the AVG, his first impressions upon arrival in Rangoon and Toungoo, and his first duties as a radioman for the group. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3afbbd23587127a26879e83c46804dc5.mp4 599b9b42dbee4b6be7c9b173badfd4f6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6cbbc23aba0fca39696198722559357c.pdf c976e2221c732220d94059a22b13ace0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert M. Smith Date of Interview: 04-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: You had worked with radios in various capacities before you even got out there. I wonder if you could give us a real clear evaluation of the radios that were provided to you to put into these airplanes and as a professional radioman, what was your opinion - how did you react when they gave you these radios to put into these airplanes and how did they work? What kind of problems did you have? R.M. SMITH: We did not have the radios of the caliber that we had in the P-40's in the States. The 20th Pursuit Group was a P-40 group and with three squadrons all using P-40's. So that generally the radiomen, the mechanics that found them were very chagrined when they found that they had to operate with a radio that probably was designed for a Piper Cub - they used to use that phrase. The quality wasn't nearly as good, they weren't as well built, they weren't as solid, they were smaller. They caused problems in the air. We had lots of complaints that the radio didn't work and it was not uncommon at all to find radio failure. FRANK BORING: Before you even installed them, the radios, did you anticipate there was going to be problems? Did you think - oh no, these things are not gonna work right. Did you actually get a chance to tell anybody that - either Parker Dupouy or anybody else? �R.M. SMITH: I don't know. I don't think I can really go in and know that much about the thing. I just don't remember. FRANK BORING: When you got there and it was so hot and the insects were there and there were snakes out there and everything, did you have any second thoughts about - what am I doing here? R.M. SMITH: After I had been there for a week or two, many of us began to wonder what are we doing here and there were a number of them that quit and left because there was absolutely no way to keep anybody there. Technically we were civilians and if we wanted to quit and go home we could. Personally, I had no desire to quit. This was part of the adventure. So it was hot and so it was miserable and the food - the food was terrible - but do you know we were paying I think two or three rupees a day for the food - the chow - but the same contractor that was feeding us, was also in charge of the mess for the British, local British troops. And the British were paying six Anna's a day, which is about a 4th or a 5th of what we were. The British used to like to sneak into our mess because it was so much better than theirs. Well the food was so bad that I got to wondering what are they doing with it in the kitchen? So I decided, foolishly, to go and inspect the kitchen. This was a cultural shock because modern American stoves - no way. A big mud, brick platform with little charcoal pots on it. Dirty, filthy. I couldn't eat for a couple of days. But I made a rule - as long as I'm in the Far East, never again will I go and inspect a kitchen. If it's hot and it tastes good, I'll eat it. FRANK BORING: The time that you spent there at Keydaw, once you had the radios installed, and you're scrounging for equipment and what not, what was your daily routine like? What was it you were doing? I know that the planes were training at that time and planes were cracking up and coming in and being repaired, but what were you doing during that period of time? �R.M. SMITH: In the months before Pearl Harbor while the pilots were mostly training, I frankly don't remember too much what I was doing at that time. It was a routine and not particularly memorable. The things I do remember is we did used to go into Toungoo, they'd run a truck in and I can remember going and visiting the local Buddhist Temple. They had a Kwei [?] there during the Feat [?] of Lights and sitting around - you had to take your shoes off in the temple, but you could smoke - it was okay to smoke and talking with the local Burmese there. Many of them of course spoke English. The rumor that went around with the Burmese was that Britain had borrowed so much money from the United States that they had pawned Burma to the United States and we were there to see that it was being taken care of and the British didn't get away with anything. FRANK BORING: Let's now go to the day of the bombing of Pearl Harbor. How did you first hear about it and what was your reaction to it once you had heard? Because you had stopped off in Honolulu and you had spent some time there. I don't know if you knew any people that were at Pearl Harbor or not - but what was your reaction and how did you find out about it? R.M. SMITH: Well I remember on December 8th, which was a day different than on the other side of the International Date Line, I remember getting up and going down to the field and someone told me the Japanese have bombed Pearl Harbor. And I though uh oh, what shall I do. But I was scheduled to go out and look for equipment and I thought well, we're going to need it, so I did. When I came back it seemed to be - lots of rumors were flying around. The Chinese wanted us I think to go to China, the British wanted us to go to Rangoon to protect Rangoon and there were a lot of radiograms being sent all over the world, I think, to finally decide what we should do. So after 2 or 3 days, the word came one squadron is to go to Rangoon, the other two to China. The ground crew were to go up in convoy, because we didn't have any planes to take �equipment and men, so started up with trucks and Studebaker sedans, started up the road. FRANK BORING: Bob Locke had told us that the Studebaker sedans were not exactly the best mode of transportation for the Burma Road. Did you run into this kind of experience? What were the loading of equipment like, the trucks, the Studebaker's and all that? R.M. SMITH: The trucks that we had were mostly, in fact all, were American made I think Chevrolet's. The Studebaker sedans, I rode up the Burma Road and then later I had one at my station, they were comfortable. Of course it wasn't a jeep and occasionally we'd get springs broken, but they got us up there. FRANK BORING: What was the experience like, traveling up the Burma Road? R.M. SMITH: I enjoyed the trip up the Burma Road. I remember the first night we stopped at Mandalay and Mandalay as portrayed by Kipling, it always sounded very romantic to me, but Mandalay was a hole. It was down in the flatlands, dirty, no place to eat, we ate out of tin cans by the side of the road. We fixed cots and slept outside - no hotels, no hostels. So the next time up the road we stopped I think the next stop was Lashio, which was up in the hills and that was much nicer. It was a British colony where the British went during the summer months, so they had - I think there was a restaurant there or at the railroad station. FRANK BORING: What were you expecting to find at the end of this journey? Had they told you anything about where you were going or what you were going to go to? R.M. SMITH: We were told, when we started out on the trip up the Burma Road that our destination was Kunming and we had not much other information. I didn't really know what I was going to get into or what to expect. But what little we had seen of the Chinese up to this time, we knew we were going to be welcome. In fact the �Chinese General came and visited us at Toungoo and gave every man in the outfit a Fifth of Johnny Walker Red Label whiskey. I remember it rather fondly because I hadn't been drinking much scotch before then because a number of my friends did not drink, so I was also able to get their bottles. So we were looking forward to going up to China. It was - and after all Kunming is beautiful it's about 7000 feet above sea level in the tropics, so the climate is excellent. FRANK BORING: Could you describe for us your arrival in Kunming? Your impressions of it the first time you arrived there. R.M. SMITH: My first impression when I hit Kunming was good. We were billeted in hostel Number 1 which had been a college and we were assigned two men to a room with nice twin beds and the hot showers. The first time we'd had a hot shower I think - a regular shower - since we'd left the ship. The showers in Burma were a bucket, a wooden bucket with a shower head on the bottom of the bucket. These were filled with water and you had kind of a pulley that pulled them up over you. So you'd turn on a little bit of water, wet down, turn it off because you've only got one bucket for a shower. So to find nice hot showers with plenty of water in Kunming was the best we'd seen for a long time. FRANK BORING: In Kunming, once you had settled into the hostel, what were your immediate duties there? Were they any different than Burma - cite some of the differences? R.M. SMITH: When I first got to Kunming I was placed in charge of communications supply and they had a fairly large warehouse there and I know that I had a bunch of carpenters building desks and file cabinets and so forth like that. And I was there for several weeks and then I was sent down to Kunyang to relieve Richardson, who was our radioman down there, for a week's vacation and then after I relieved him, I came back to Kunming and then was sent up to the radio station VO2 at Chengyi [?]. �FRANK BORING: What were these radio stations like? Can you describe them to us and what was their function? R.M. SMITH: Each radio station had one transmitter which was - RCA 4 channel - you could transmit on any one of 4 frequencies, very powerful 400 watt transmitter. Then we had 3 receivers and power units to power the transmitters and the receiver rooms. The station equipment was fine. The quality of the housing for the equipment very drastically from station to station. Quite often our radio stations were set in a temple, because in a small town or village, the only public building is the temple and the natives, the people in China used that for their weddings, to put guests, whatever, the only public building in the village. So quite often we were housed there. FRANK BORING: So these radio areas were part of the warning net? R.M. SMITH: Yes. They were superimposed. We had thirteen radio stations in the AVG in Yunnan Province in China. Later on we had more, but we also closed some that we had down near the Burmese border. They were superimposed on the Chinese air raid warning net. My station at Chengyi [?] was at one of the Chinese net control headquarters for the area, there were three Chinese net control stations. One at Chengyi [?], one at Kunming and one at Yunnanyi. The Chinese nets fed in from either radio or telephone lines into these net control stations, but the stations themselves were somewhat interlocking. In other words, there was not only information feeding up and down, but also between stations, particularly the radio stations of course. FRANK BORING: I'd like to get a better perspective of how all this interwove, how this all worked together. You had Chinese stations, then you had the AVG stations. What was the effect of the whole together? Were they separate from each other? Did they interlink with each �other? Where was the central location for controlling it and operating? R.M. SMITH: The Chinese air raid warning net was of itself independent and completely separate from the AVG net and they fed in to the various population centers warnings of any enemy, Japanese activity. Our 13 stations were placed in strategic places where we could 1) collect information from the Chinese, the radioman or whoever was there and 2) communicate with our pilots in the air if they should so happen to be over our station. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_M_1991-04-25_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert M. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-25 Title A name given to the resource Robert M. Smith interview (video and transcript, 3 of 6) 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert M. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Smith served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Communications Specialist. In this tape, Smith discusses his reactions to the airplane radios of the AVG, the news of Pearl Harbor, and traveling up the Burma Road. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05a90feddad941b58551d8a69e26d576.mp4 79fa4fa126fa5d665fac899078436ff4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/809f726c725eadaf89cde21dc7567606.pdf 7c612478c00c18e4099e3065fb1f21dc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert M. Smith Date of Interview: 04-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: If we could continue on with your description of the overall communications, the warning net, the Chinese warning net, the AVG warning net, how they all fit in together and what was the purpose of it and how it all fit into Chennault being able to know what was going on during a given day. R.M. SMITH: The American Volunteer Group radio network operated on 648 kilocycles. We had just one frequency, so this meant that of all our 13 radio stations and our planes all were operating on one frequency so they could communicate. Any plane could communicate with any one of the AVG stations. Also, General Chennault maintained a radio in his office tuned into this frequency. The pilots on the field in the ready shack had a receiver listening to this frequency so that they would get information as quickly as possible. The Chinese nets would report and the station at Chengyi [?] and Kunming and Yunnanyi, the AVG stations, would pick up - because we were interconnected by telephone with these. So we would call if we heard of enemy activity, for example, like heavy engine noise in Section L22 - we would call this immediately by voice in the clear to Kunming, so the pilots, any pilot listening or Chennault and our headquarters operations of course, knew immediately what was coming on and they could start plotting. All of Yunnan Province was divided up into sectors with an alphabet across the top and numbers on the side - these were 20 kilometer squares and theoretically there should be a �Chinese air raid radio warning in each of the squares. So if we reported L22, other people with the map knew exactly where they were and generally the first warning would be heavy engine noise that was what they'd hear. Later on it might be 10 two engine Japanese bombers, much more specific. But the first was quite often just heavy engine noise. FRANK BORING: Where were you on December 20th, with the attack on Kunming when there were bombers and the first AVG encounter with the Japanese? R.M. SMITH: On December 20th, on our first encounter, our pilot's first encounter with the Japanese, I was on the Burma Road going up to Kunming, so I was - I spent Christmas day in Lashio and there we heard about this deal, by word of mouth, I don't know how we got the information. But were just driving through and spent the night there, so we heard about it in Lashio. FRANK BORING: What was your reaction to this? R.M. SMITH: I don't know - I kind of thought it was to be expected. I kind of just had a feeling that our guys would do right. Although when we first went over there, I was real dubious and I wondered if we'd ever be as famous as the Eagle Squadron in Britain. FRANK BORING: Why is that? R.M. SMITH: Well, the Eagle Squadron was very famous in those days and I really didn't know what the future was going to hold. FRANK BORING: But why did you have any doubts about it - was this during the training period when the airplanes were being cracked up and all that. Let's go back to that for a second. R.M. SMITH: This was one of the depressing things about the training down in Toungoo, that we lost pilots and we lost planes. Our first casualty �was Army Armstrong. He went to Kansas State, my own college and I talked to him one day down at the hangar, he was riding his bicycle and we talked about Kansas State and a few days later there was a crash and he was gone. It was very discouraging because we lost a lot of planes in training accidents. Some of the pilots, I used to hear comments, all they'd ever flown was a big boat in the Navy. So it was discouraging then. FRANK BORING: Once you arrived in Kunming when was the next encounter that you can recall? They didn't come back to Kunming for… again. R.M. SMITH: The Japanese planes did not come back to Kunming after that first attempt in December 20, 1941, as long as the AVG was in Kunming. Later on, when I was back with the Army Air Corps, I was in bombing raids in Kunming and they were bombing it later, but they didn't try to bomb it while the AVG was there. FRANK BORING: After that initial flurry of battle there, Kunming settled down. Were you still in that area? Where were you transferred to say in January, February, that area? R.M. SMITH: I was transferred from Kunming to the station at Chengyi [?], which is about 140 or 150 miles northeast of Kunming. It was a very good station. The station was set up with a hostel for 200 Americans, they had a good cook, they had a barber - who's only job was to watch my hair grow so he could cut it, which was kind of ridiculous, but we had a good platoon of central troops with wool uniforms guarding the hostel. So it was very good. FRANK BORING: So you said it could house 200 Americans. Were there actually 200 Americans there? R.M. SMITH: No. At that time I was the only American there. Later on - much later when the Americans came in, they did station a squadron there. But when I was there with the AVG, I was the only American in the whole area. �FRANK BORING: Let's talk a little bit about that, being the only American there and your inter-reactions with the Chinese. Who were the Chinese you were interacting with, did they speak English, were they an educated group, did you deal with soldiers, did you deal only with your own group? Tell us as much as you can about that particular period. R.M. SMITH: I was very fortunate at the radio station in Chengyi?. In the first place, the Chinese who was assigned to this station, Captain Chen Nan Ming, was a very intelligent guy with a degree in electrical engineering and spoke excellent English, so we got along real fine, no problem at all. The hostel manager spoke English and the barber didn't, but that was no problem. So it was a very… FRANK BORING: Let's talk a bit about your duties there. What was the routine like, what was your interaction with your fellow workers, did you feel special that you were the only American there, did you feel uncomfortable while you were there? Let's talk about your daily kind of routine. R.M. SMITH: My daily routine at the radio station was to get up at about 5:30 every morning to go open the station. I had it open by 6 o'clock, so the first day that I was there I asked the houseboy to wake me up at 5:30 in the morning. (break) FRANK BORING: You were telling us about your first day there, the houseboy was gonna wake you up - start at the very beginning. R.M. SMITH: On my first day at my radio station in Chengyi, I told the houseboy to wake me up at 5 o'clock in the morning and he looked at me and didn't say anything. Pretty soon, a half hour later he came back and loaned me an alarm clock. He wasn't about to get up at 5:30 in the morning. So anyway I had to open the station at 6:00 and I'd call in to Kunming and report and every station would come in and report. �Then we would sit and if nothing happened, if there was no Japanese activity, it would be mostly just sitting there listening to the receiver crackle. About 8:30 I'd leave the station, which was about almost a mile from the hostel, in charge of the Chinese, and go back and have breakfast and then come back again. I frankly used to look forward to Japanese activity because it was exciting, it was something happening. The way I got my information, there was a Chinese telephone operator who had a desk and an office right next to my station in the same building and he was a key link in the Chinese network. He had I think 8 or so telephones coming in, reporting in to him, which he then reported on to his net control station. So any reports that he got, either from his station or from below him, he would come and tell me. He was very efficient. He'd come in - but the problem was he did not speak English. He had one word of English "Okay" and he'd come in and say "Jing bow" meaning Chinese air raid. And I would say "Sumo di Fong" where? And he'd go over to the big map and he'd start pointing and finding the name and then I could see ah that's sector L22, so I'd call Kunming, "hey heavy engine noise in sector L22". FRANK BORING: Spell for me if you will, the station name R.M. SMITH: C-h-e-n-g-y-i FRANK BORING: If you could explain to us the people that you were working with immediately within your confines of the office there? R.M. SMITH: At the radio station at Chengyi, In charge of the Chinese staff was Captain Chen Nanming, who was a very intelligent and really top guy. Under him was a Lieutenant Chief Operator and two or three other Chinese operators and two or three Chinese mechanics. To guard the station, we had six Yunnanese troops who guarded the transmitter, which was about 1/2 mile away from the receiver station. The receiver station and the transmitter was connected by a telephone - the old Army telephone in a leather case, I think it's EE-8 or something - I've forgotten. Down at the transmitter station, �where the guard was on duty 24 hours a day, there was the transmitter and the car unit that governed and furnished power for the receiver station - was locked, padlocked. But outside the door was two buttons so that the guard there could press a button to start the engine which would give power and we could start the transmitter. Or he could push the off button and kill it. So when we wanted the power, we would ring the phone, he'd say "Wa eh" and I'd say "Kai jiji" that means start the engine or open (technically) open the engine and when we were through with power and were gonna operate on batteries, I'd say "Kwan jiji" shut off the engine, and he'd say "Wai wai.” FRANK BORING: Were there any particular incidents that happened while you were there, that stick out in your mind. I mean you had a daily routine, but was there anything in particular that stuck out at that time, any events, any news perhaps that came in? R.M. SMITH: One thing that we did almost every day at the station was to tune in to the BBC at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. We had 3 radio receivers so one was a battery one that we used when we didn't want to waste gasoline. But we always listened generally to BBC at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. The Chinese would often gather around and then after that was over we would tune to Chung King and they would listen to the news in Chinese which was almost a routine. Most of the time it was very boring for not only me but for the Chinese operators, because they didn't have too much to do. I remember one time I got a long coded message all numbers, from Kunming and I was sitting there copying the code and I started to break because Boogy [?] was going too fast for me and I looked and there was a Chinese operator and he signed they were copying away. They hadn't missed anything, they were faster than I was. So I just stopped copying and leaned back and then when the message - I said Okay and went back to voice and said "Fine Boogy [?]" and he says "Boy you're getting better in your code speed Smith". I never told him. �FRANK BORING: Could you describe any details of encounters or air battles that came over the radio or anything of that nature? R.M. SMITH: I looked forward to Japanese activity. Occasionally, not too often, but occasionally we'd have some real activity. Particularly down near the Burmese border when we were losing Burma and we would watch and we could hear the pilots in the air, we could hear the ground men, the radiomen working back and forth with them and this was dramatic and interesting and exciting. But most of the radioman's time was just sitting there listening to a receiver crackle and nothing happened. We used to play bridge though. I had two interpreters, by the way, assigned to the station and they both played bridge of a sort, so did I. So we'd - but we'd always bid in English and even when I wasn't playing with them and they'd play bridge, they would always bid in English, but then they'd do all their discussions of hands of course in Chinese. It seemed like towards the end of April, that the Japanese were coming up the Burma Road faster than we did in convoy. The whole front collapsed down there. Our planes were pulled back from Rangoon to Toungoo and then back to Lashio and then into the fields around the Burma/Chinese border. This became a very dangerous time for us, at least we felt it was dangerous. I remember talking to Captain Chen and figuring out what if the Japanese did break through, what would we do? Well we had plenty of gasoline and we had a truck and the Studebaker sedan, but we started figuring out the only place that we could go would be north to Chinese Turkistan, towards the Siberian border. But we figured out that we could not carry enough gas to get us there, so we decided that the only thing we could do was pray and see what happened and stick there, because we could not run. The scenes in Paoshan down near the border - we had a radio station at Paoshan but it fell to the Japanese - the scenes there were terrible. Refugees were coming through, there were British troops, Chinese, all trying to get out of Burma and the scenes on the highway and the roads were terrible wrecks, confusion, a lot of people died in that flight from Burma. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_M_1991-04-25_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert M. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-25 Title A name given to the resource Robert M. Smith interview (video and transcript, 4 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert M. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Smith served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Communications Specialist. In this tape, Smith describes the overall communications for the AVG, in addition to the attack on Kunming and working at the radio station in Chengyi. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6b7da8f1f51bae67cdf5d5b689c553a.mp4 fb19a0014649738806910e9b061acd22 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7a34f9d992afef54c4842703425caf9d.pdf 822cc1553ff8b1e4a37eda2d8b2ac767 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert M. Smith Date of Interview: 04-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] R.M. SMITH: The radio station at Chengyi was the most efficient in the Chinese net. The cooperation, the reports of enemy activity came in through that Chinese net control station much faster than at Kunming or Yunnanyi, so I generally got all reports of enemy activity before anyone else. I remember one time I called Kunming and reported that there was Japanese bombers over Yunnanyi. Well Morgan Vaux was the radio operator down there, so he called me direct and said "Hey Smitty what are you talking about? I haven't had any reports." I said "Well I don't know, that's what I've got." He said "Wait a minute" and a couple of minutes later he came back and says "They're overhead, they're dropping bombs. I'm going to the slit trench." That station at Yunnanyi was in a temple and it was a hole and Morgan Vaux used to - was bored, nothing to do and he didn't have the nice set-up that I had. So he would write poetry in his very bad poetry, mostly having to do with the way the Chinese fertilized the fields. And he would write them on this - I saw them later - he would write them on the white walls of the temple. Then in the morning when he was pretty bored, he'd call up all stations from PB-1, "this is the poem of the day" and he would read them. There was a lot of gossip going on, on the frequency. Remember radiomen are gabby people, whether they're on CW or voice, and there was Sasser, old Sasser was a radioman down at Munksa [?], now Munksa [?] is on the old railroad line down in Hanoi, about 100 - 150 miles south of Kunming. Sasser was shacking up with a Chinese woman. He would come on the air and go into explicit �detail about his sex life - how he got his gun, she got her gun there was a bunk there in my radio shack - and I'd lie on that and I'd roar at the incredible stories that he was telling. And I realized that Chennault was on that frequency, the pilots were on that frequency. But when I went back to China the second time I decided I ought to report in and I came back with AACS Communications outfit and I thought I ought to report in to Chennault, courtesy, although I was not under him. So I went over and his Secretary was Doreen Lomberg, whom I had met before and so she got me right in to see Chennault and I saluted and said "Happy to be back" or whatever and he looked at me and he says "Do you remember Sasser?" I said "Yes, Sir" "I had to get rid of Sasser" he says. FRANK BORING: Do you remember any of the poetry? R.M. SMITH: No. But later when I was at Yunnanyi for a few days I read this poetry on the wall and it was pretty bad. FRANK BORING: Did you get the chance to get to know Chennault after a while or when did you really start to get to the point where you had more contact with him? R.M. SMITH: I didn't have much contact with Chennault either in the AVG or even later. I didn't really meet and talk to him too much until we started having our reunions and he was at our last reunion in 1957 at Ojai. I remember when Doreen Lomberg escaped from Hong Kong. She was engaged to a staff member, Davis, I believe and when she - she hitchhiked, she escaped from Hong Kong and she hitchhiked and when she saw my car, the Studebaker sedan in front of the station on the Burma Road with AVG on it, she stopped, got off and came up to the station. Then I called - I had direct telephone lines to Kunming, so I called Kunming and told Davis and so he came up the next day and got her. But she, that night we spent a lot of time, she telling about the situations in Hong Kong �and the complete collapse and the Japanese. But she had a foreign passport and was able to escape and get out of there. FRANK BORING: After you finished up at that particular place at Chengyi, where did you go from there? R.M. SMITH: From Chengyi, I stayed there until about a week before we broke up, so it was the end of June and I went down to Kunming. FRANK BORING: Once you arrived in Kunming were a lot of the other guys there at that time? What was your reaction when you arrived there? What were you expecting and what happened when you arrived there? R.M. SMITH: Well I think the general morale was kind of low at the time. We had lost perhaps 30% of our pilots, either in accidents - mostly in accidents, or enemy action or captured and we were, I think, ready to go home. Generally you don't keep a fighting unit that long in combat without relief. Today I think in front lines they keep combat maybe two weeks with relief and we'd been there for 7 months. So the mood was, let's go home, we've had it. A few stayed - I've forgotten how many - maybe 20 or so pilots and ground crew did stay, but most of us came back to the States. FRANK BORING: I guess what I'm looking for is when you arrived there was two weeks before July 4th - about two weeks just before the July 4th breakup - a lot of people stayed on for two weeks after July 4th. R.M. SMITH: No, I was in Kunming perhaps a week before July 4th and then from there we were officially disbanded on July 4, 1942. FRANK BORING: Was there any attempt to ask you to stay? R.M. SMITH: Yes. I went in before the board. I had told them I wouldn't stay when I was in Kunming - I mean when I was out at my station in Chengyi, I told them I wouldn't stay. �FRANK BORING: Who were they? R.M. SMITH: I got a radiogram from Williams offering me First Lieutenant if I would stay at my station in Chengyi and stay in the Army. I told him no and was relieved by I think, an American Sergeant and so I proceeded down to Kunming. But when I was in Kunming, I started feeling guilty for not staying so I told them that I'd go before the board. So I went in before the - Chennault was there and there were several officers. I do not know - remember who they were, but I also remember that they weren't very friendly. The only question I think they asked me was "Mr. Smith did you graduate from high school?" So I had and I had almost got a reserve commission for three and a half years ROTC in college, so the next question they said "well, General Chennault what rank did you want for Smith?" and he said "Second Lieutenant" and I said "I thought I was going to be a First Lieutenant" and Chennault said "Okay, maybe in 3 months we'll promote you." So I agreed I'd stay. So I went out from the meeting and Ernie Bonham, who was in charge of radio operators AVG, he said "What did you tell them Smitty?" and I said "I said I'd stay" and he said "You can go down to Yunnanyi and relieve Vaux, we've got to get him out of there." So they flew me down, Parker Dupouy flew me down in a twoseated trainer, I think it was an AT6 and landed and the Yunnanyi station was dirty and a mess. There was dust all over the transmitters and the equipment and I was blaming Vaux for not being a good housekeeper. So the first day I spent cleaning it up and getting things in shape. The next morning when I came in it was just as dusty, the dusty old temple had a lot of rats in it and they just stirred up the dust. But then, I got to thinking that I hadn't been sworn in and the guys were going over and saying goodbye and I felt kind of alone. But I still would have stayed. But then I got an abscessed tooth and it was really swollen up and I was hitting myself because there was no dentist, there was nothing I could do about it. So I was hitting myself, trying to break it and then I thought they didn't swear me in. I'm not in the Army - if they'd sworn me in I'd have had it. So I called up in clear and said �"Hey I haven't been sworn in. I've changed my mind." And of course they had to release me and so they came down and brought some poor Sergeant down to relieve me and the pilot - I think it was Dupouy again, Parker, - the weather was bad and he wanted to get out of there and he said "Come on" and I said "I've got to show you where the station is." So I took him up and I said "Do you know anything about codes?" and he said "No" and I said "Well here's the code book." I heard later it took 2 or 3 days before he really got on the air. FRANK BORING: I'd like to go back briefly to… (break) FRANK BORING: Before you do that could you just give us an idea before you made the decision to sign up, why did you want to leave - before the abscess - the first time? R.M. SMITH: I think the reason that I wanted to go, return to the United States, was I think we were tired. Our morale was down. We had been living at the end of the pipeline. The food - well the Chinese fed us - it was well and good - it was certainly not America and there seemed to be a sense of futility. There was no replacements, very few - there were some replacements of P-40's but not many, no spare parts. I think it was just a morale problem. I think it was just we'd been there too long. And remember we worked 7 days a week. We never had a day off. It was from 6 in the morning until dusk and sometimes at night too if something happened. FRANK BORING: I'd like to get a sense of the last day you left the radio area, not Kunming. You had made good friends with Captain Chen, you'd made some close relationships with the Chinese people around you, or at least you'd worked with them. What was your feeling in terms of leaving there? Was there a sense of loss? Was there a sense of you would never see these people again? Was there a sense of accomplishment for what you did? What was the feeling �like when you left that radio shack you'd been working out of for so long? R.M. SMITH: I was sorry to leave my station at Chengyi because of the friends and the people. The local Kiwanis Club at a nearby town had invited me down to speak. There was a local Chinese Colonel who had a wife who was half English, who spoke English and invited me to dinner many times. But they'd started to break up the station. Captain Chen had been ordered out to go the east China to open new stations and as it happens in wartime, things are transitory and while I was sorry to go, I felt that we had done what we'd been hired to do and our contracts, they had definitely - the American the Army they had decided that our contracts would be up on July 4th. We had not said that and if they had continued our contracts, I'm sure we would have stayed longer. FRANK BORING: When you left to come back to the United States, you mentioned you had a culture shock arriving in China, what was it like coming back to the States? R.M. SMITH: When I came back to the States it was different. Of course it was a war atmosphere. Before it had been peace time. But I knew when I came back that we were going to be in this war for a long time and I wanted to be a part of it. When I got back I had a telegram from the War Department offering me to re-enlist in one grade higher. So I decided I would go back. So I went down to March Field and there I argued with the recruiting officer whether I'd be a Master Sergeant or a Tech, so we compromised on Tech Sergeant. While I was down there taking my physical at March Field, I ran into Pappy Greenlaw. Now Pappy Greenlaw had returned to the United States too and he was down there attempting to re-enlist in the service. I also, when I took the physical, the doctor looked at me and he said "I don't know whether you Flying Tigers can pass the physical or not" and I said "What do you mean?" and he said "Well I had two of them in here trying to enlist and I had to flunk them both. One had a punctured ear drum, the other had syphilis." �FRANK BORING: I mean you guys had a lot of air play, on the radio, newspapers, Time Magazine, what was the reaction of the people around you when you arrived back in the United States? Did they know you were a Flying Tiger? R.M. SMITH: Yes. My folks were living in Alhambra at the time and a newspaper man came from the Alhambra Daily Advocate and wanted to interview me, which he did and I think I still have a copy of the clipping. So they were quite interested. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_M_1991-04-25_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert M. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-25 Title A name given to the resource Robert M. Smith interview (video and transcript, 5 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert M. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Smith served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Communications Specialist. In this tape, Smith discusses the experience of having to leave his station at Chengyi and later returning to the United States. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/269b00832e50de2d96e64a7a2d2cd707.mp4 2dec03e49c930b420f7d3b5ba1fba6a4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bcbd242bb9007be75b75201b286728ee.pdf 397a2229bbdfb0632fd23583699b6687 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert M. Smith Date of Interview: 04-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] FRANK BORING: We're gonna cover now just some of your personal evaluations. Not so much what you heard or what other people said, but your own personal evaluations. The AVG from the very beginning, in fact I think you may have reported in your own diary, you talked about this rich and rowdy group of guys. Misunderstood and what not - I was just wondering what your impressions of the AVG was? R.M. SMITH: My impression of the members of the American Volunteer Group is mixed. One thing, particularly the enlisted men, they were released from bondage. When you're in the service, you are kept down. But over there out of the country, they did about and said about what they pleased. Now I don't mean to imply they didn't do a good job or do their job. Some of them were absolutely incredible in what they did, but they didn't hesitate to say what they think. If people's customs were not theirs, they would express themselves as to their opinion. Many of them were heavy drinkers. Some didn't drink at all. Some even got religion over there. But they were in some ways, some of them were rather wild. FRANK BORING: Looking back now from the perspective of your life now, how do you evaluate the AVG from this perspective, from where you are now? The men of the AVG, what they accomplished? R.M. SMITH: Looking back now at the AVG, I feel real proud that I was lucky to be a member. �(break) FRANK BORING: You had described the AVG from the perspective of that period. I guess what we're looking now is from your perspective here, now at this time, the men of the AVG and what they accomplished? R.M. SMITH: I think, looking back that being a member of the American Volunteer Group was one of the high points of my life. I'll never forget it. I made some very good friends there that I have seen year after year at the reunions. Some of which of course aren't with us anymore. But I'll never forget the guys - and we had gals too - we had four women in the AVG. They've been good friends and I've always been very proud that I was able to be a member. FRANK BORING: You also had an opportunity to do a lot more in your life after the AVG and you've also done some research and studied China. You've taken it upon yourself to build a library that has a great deal to do with China. Looking back now, where do you think AVG fits in terms of history? In terms of China's history? In terms of America's history? R.M. SMITH: I think the AVG will be remembered because we were the one bright spot at the time when we were losing Singapore, the Philippines, Rangoon. We were the one organization - American organization - that was having victory and why it was important I think it was an omen of the things that were to come. The Japanese learned that Americans could fight and would fight. They had been told our pilots were afraid. So it was the beginning of the great victory that, we, the allied powers won in World War II. FRANK BORING: How about for China. Where do you think we fit - you've had a chance to study China - where do you think AVG fit in terms of the history of China? R.M. SMITH: The relationship that we had with the Chinese was amazingly good. I always liked the Chinese and the Chinese liked us. I �remember there was an INS newspaper correspondent, his name Lee, that came through my station at Chengyi and he commented on that. He couldn't get over the fact that the relationship with the Americans and the Chinese was so good. Part of the reason I think was, in some ways Chinese and Americans look at things the same way. They both are very proud people. They both consider themselves worthy and they recognize that in each other. There are some races that seem to have an inferiority complex, or at least that's the way it comes across to us who perhaps don't know them well, but I think we, the Americans respected each other and it was the beginning of a good friendship. FRANK BORING: Before we were talking about the Salween Gorge and you guys were preparing to leave, could you tell us about what you thought the AVG did there? R.M. SMITH: It was in May 1942, when the Japanese were advancing up the Burma Road and we were very much afraid that they were going to capture Kunming and be completely cut off. We were making plans to leave, evacuate if we could, but we had no place to go. We couldn't carry enough gas to get us to Siberia. But our pilots helped the Chinese. The Chinese made a stand on the Salween River and our pilots went in - very dangerously. Tex Hill was part of the group - went in and bombed and while this may not have been the only thing that stopped them, this was one of the factors, with Chinese troops dug in on the other side, this was one of the factors that stopped the Japanese advance into China and if that had happened, that would have been a disastrous event and China might have gotten out of the war completely, releasing Japanese troops and energies for other ill-advised adventures. FRANK BORING: If you could make a couple of comments on - you had mentioned earlier about a dinner that Madame Chiang Kai-shek hosted and she always considered you her darling boys. But I understand this night it was not exactly - she was not exactly happy with you. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit? �R.M. SMITH: In Kunming in January 1942, the Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and Madame Chiang came down to Kunming and hosted a very nice banquet for us. The Generalissimo gave scarves to all members with his chop on it and spoke. Madame Chiang translated and then she gave a little speech and she kind of chewed us out. Our reputation as far as morals was not too good and she told us all about that. I think she called us "her angels without wings." FRANK BORING: One other comment if you will. When you were on the radio, did you hear about the battles? I mean you got reports back on how the battles went. Did you also hear about some of the pilots or ground crew that got killed? R.M. SMITH: Yes. Of course a radio station is a good place to get information, but we didn't get a lot of it over the air because that would have to be in the clear and we would sometimes hear reports. We did have telephone lines that we could use, but not heavily like we do today. But we also had quite a bit of road communications from Kunming up either going to Chung King or out to the far eastern stations, so we would get reports and rumors, sometimes second or third hand of various activity. But of course sometimes it would be a little garbled, but we had kind of a grapevine I think. FRANK BORING: Was there any of the guys in particular that either got hurt or you were concerned about, even one that perhaps had died, that had a particular effect on you? Do you recall in terms of your being isolated, knowing that battles were going on - or in Toungoo for that matter when the training part of it, were there any guys in particular that you were friends with - that had an effect on you? R.M. SMITH: It was always very difficult when we lost guys, either in accidents or in combat. This was something that affected all of us very deeply. It was particularly sad when someone that had been very popular died. I remember when Army Armstrong was killed, he had gone to the same college that I had and some of the early �accident deaths were from very popular pilots that all the ground crew felt deeply at their loss. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned before about Doolittle's raid and how Chennault sort of got excluded from knowing about the raid and perhaps could have done something about it. Can you comment on that for us? R.M. SMITH: I remember talking to General Doolittle when he attended one of our reunions at Ojai many years after the AVG, and I asked him why they didn't have some homing beacons - or they hadn't let us know, because we could have guided the Doolittle Raiders into some of those eastern fields. That's what those fields had been designed for. Well Doolittle told me that there were two things: 1) that they were afraid to let Chennault know because he was so close to the Chinese and they were afraid that it would get out and it would destroy the mission if any word got to the Japanese, and 2) they had a plane, a C-47 filled with communication equipment and a homing beacon, it was flying out to China to be installed on one of the airfields, and this plane crashed on the road out there, so that's why all the planes were lost and many of the crews, the Doolittle Raiders. FRANK BORING: You told us a couple of stories about Olga Greenlaw, and we'll let you choose whichever one it was that you'd like to have on camera, but you had mentioned a couple of humorous ones. R.M. SMITH: I remember when we were down at Toungoo, we were down at the railroad station one night having dinner, there was a bunch of the ground crew and over at another table, there was Olga Greenlaw and her husband, Pappy Greenlaw and four or five of our pilots around a big round table. All of a sudden, Olga got up and all the pilots followed her except one and he sat there talking to Pappy Greenlaw, who was drinking rather heavily. About half an hour later, one of the pilots came in, tapped the one talking to Greenlaw, on the shoulder, they traded places, Greenlaw didn’t notice, and �the other one went out. Scene Two: the next morning at headquarters AVG at the airport, the clerk told me this. Olga walks in, throws her purse on the desk and says "Well I sure made a bitch of myself last night." FRANK BORING: The story about plugging the radio…? R.M. SMITH: When I got up to Kunming, I was in a nice room on the first floor. Olga and Pappy Greenlaw had an apartment, these two rooms, on the second floor. Word was passed down that Olga Greenlaw wanted a radioman because her radio didn't work, her radio receiver didn't work. Well, I'm not really a good radio mechanic but I was the only one there so I went up. It was something simple like it needed to be plugged in or a wire on the antenna or something - I've forgotten - I wasn't there long - 10 or 15 minutes. When I came down all the guys started Ha Ha and laughing at me. "Oh what happened?" I didn't understand what they were talking about. FRANK BORING: A lot of you guys wrote diaries. Why did you decide to publish yours? R.M. SMITH: I decided to publish my diary because I figured it was a footnote to history and it would tell a different point of view than what had been put out by many people on the Flying Tigers before. Also in most books published on all wars, very rarely do you find a book published, written by an enlisted man, they're always by officers or generals. There was one other book by a Navy Seaman that was published that was very good about World War II. So fortunately I found a publisher that - Tab Books, Inc. - that was happy to publish it. But now it's out of print. FRANK BORING: (Inaudible) R.M. SMITH: Well to me the AVG was probably one of the most interesting military units in history. Rowdy, hard drinking, incredibly naive in �some ways, but it ended up the greatest killer fighter unit in history. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_M_1991-04-25_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert M. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-25 Title A name given to the resource Robert M. Smith interview (video and transcript, 6 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview with Robert M. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Smith served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Communications Specialist. In this tape, Smith describes his impression of the members of the American Volunteer Group and his sense of pride in being a member, in addition to their place in Chinese history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1eb3bdfb0360cab9d398b33ea1d5ce7c.mp4 9d27582402c54d0599b3e4c1c8450c00 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/66d8a46302cf09188e1b9f556fb4c91c.pdf db9f39ba6e1994d19f2aa75d6e61fad1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert T. Smith Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: Well to begin with, could you tell us what you were doing before you even heard about the AVG? R.T. SMITH I had gone through the Army Air Corps flying school as a Flying Cadet in 1939 and in 1940 and I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant at Kelly Field in 1940 after completing the Air Corps flying school thing. I was sent back to Randolph Field in June 1940 to a basic Flight Instructor at Randolph Field, which wasn't exactly what I had in mind. I wanted to get into a combat outfit or something that was flying airplanes that might eventually be in combat. But I was sent back to be a basic Flight Instructor and, as it turned out, I spent one year there and instructed quite a number of students that came through and I guess it was about the middle of June 1941, that I saw a copy of Time Magazine and this particular issue had a small article about the fact that the Japanese had closed up all of the seaports for China and the only way China could get any supplies to defend themselves anymore against the Japanese was through a thing called the Burma Road and that was from the port in Rangoon in Burma which was way down around the corner and by rail and then a very tortuous trek through the mountains, about 600 miles from northern Burma into southwestern China to Kunming, China. This was called the Burma Road and this was all truck convoys. It was the only way that China could get any supplies to help defend themselves anymore. That was when I first heard about the idea that somebody �might be going over to help defend the Chinese. This article in Time Magazine said that a certain number, a few people who were commissioned officers in the Air Corps or the Navy and experienced pilots were being allowed to resign their commissions to go over as volunteers to help the Chinese and defend the Burma Road. I thought, boy that sounds pretty good to me. I didn't want to be an instructor for the rest of my life, I wanted to get into some activity and this sounded like a pretty good thing. So at that point I started taking some action to find out who you contacted, how you go about finding out how you get into this outfit and at that time it didn't even have a name, it wasn't called the American Volunteer Group at that time, which it was later known as. But that's when I first found out about this thing going on. FRANK BORING: What was your first actual contact with the people that were eventually AVG - the CAMCO? R.T. SMITH: When I had read this article in Time Magazine, I started asking around the officer's club and different places around Randolph Field there in Texas and nobody had ever heard anything about this at all. Until finally I ran across a guy over at Kelly Field and got a hold of him and he said he didn't know too much about it but he knew the name of a guy in Washington, D.C. that could be contacted and maybe he would fill me in on the thing. So he gave me this guy's name and a phone number in Washington and I called this number, talked to somebody in an office there and apparently it was the office that was going to recruit the people and I explained the situation that I was ready to go. I wanted to find more. I was told well stand by, you'll be contacted in a few days and it turned out that that happened. I was told - I guess I got a telegram from Washington saying that somebody, one of the recruiters from this outfit was gonna be down in San Antonio a few days later and to check in with this guy on the occasion when - he mentioned the date that he'd be at a certain hotel in San Antonio. So that's what happened. (break) �FRANK BORING: We'll start from you're gonna be meeting somebody in San Antonio in a hotel. R.T. SMITH: Well I got a notice from somebody in Washington, D.C. that said that they would have a member of their recruiting organization in San Antonio on a certain date and to check in with them at a hotel and we would talk about it. It happens that my buddy from Randolph Field, who was a classmate of mine and also another instructor, he and I had both been talking about this thing and he was as interested as I was. This was Paul J. Green, and one of my dearest friends, so when we finally got around to it, we went into the hotel and got a hold of this guy. His name was Skip Adair and Skip had been over in China for 3 or 4 years I guess at that point and had been involved in training Chinese Air Force pilots and had been working with Chennault, who was gonna be the head man of this whole outfit. We went in and talked to Adair and at that point Adair said "Well gee, you guys you've had good training and I'm sure you're great pilots and all, but how much time have you had in pursuit planes?" and we said none and he said "You've no time at all in P-40's for instance and it's what the people are gonna be flying" and we said no. As a matter of fact, at that point we'd never even seen a P-40. "Have you had any aerial gunnery experience or any kind of gunnery experience?" no, and all we had was about 1000 hours apiece of flying time as instructors sitting in the back seat of a BT9 airplane, a basic flight airplane at Randolph Field. And he said "Well I'm sorry, I don't think that's gonna qualify you guys very well and I don't think I can sign you up for this thing." So we went away from that little meeting at the hotel there in San Antonio that evening very discouraged. Went back to Randolph and the next day Green and I both decided well let's have another go at this guy and we went by the officer's club and picked up a quart of I. W. Harper 100 proof bottled in bond bourbon, took it back into see Skip Adair again the following evening, got in there about 5:30 in the afternoon, which we figured we'd catch him after he got back to the hotel from his chores out at - he was �interviewing other people out at Kelly Field and different places and we caught him all right and we used the better part of that quart of I. W. Harper - which incidentally cost $2.00 at the officer's club in those days - so by the time we'd spent a couple of hours talking with him again, we finally managed to convince him that we had to be part of that American Volunteer Group. So he got out the papers, we signed them, we didn't know what we were signing, but we signed up and the whole proposition was that he offered that the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation offered us a contract to go over and to fly - it didn't say anything about combat or about the Japanese or anything like that - just to fly airplanes for that company in Burma and China and they would pay us $600.00 a month salary, air expense over - our fare over and our fare back after a year of contract and that was it. So we signed up and were told at that point by Skip Adair that probably within a week or ten days we would have orders relieving us from active duty from our jobs there at Randolph Field as Instructors - releasing us to go to San Francisco and join up with a group that would be going by boat over to the Far East. And that's how the whole thing happened. FRANK BORING: When you actually heard about the money being paid, was that the first time you actually heard you were gonna get paid that amount of money? R.T. SMITH: Yes. FRANK BORING: Could you talk about your reaction to that? Because you wanted to get in… R.T. SMITH: When they told me that the pay was gonna be $600.00 a month, I thought well that seems reasonable. As a matter of fact, as a Second Lieutenant at that point, I believe after a year's service, I was making something like $250.00 a month in the Air Corps. But of course we had a few perks that went along with that made up for quite a bit. But I thought that sounded reasonable as far as that �went, as far as pay went, particularly since we knew that we were gonna be sticking our necks out and we were gonna get shot at and so it seemed a reasonable trade-off and the money wasn't why - I don't think more than one guy out of 20 went because of the fact that he was gonna get paid a little more than he'd been paid in the service. I think almost all of us went because strictly we were - in the first place we were crazy - but we were anxious for adventure. I think most of us had read books by Conrad and Kipling and those people who wrote about the mysterious Far East, Burma, China and different places and I think a lot of us were intrigued with the idea that this would be a grand adventure. We wanted to - I think most of us wanted to get out of the rut that we may have been in, in the service branch that we were in. For instance, Green and myself having been Instructors all this time and figuring that there was gonna be a war coming on very shortly and we didn't want to be stuck in the training command as Instructors or whatever, when the stuff hit the fan. We wanted to get into something that allowed us a little more adventure and flexibility and of course all of us that went in wanted to fly fighters. In those days the Air Corps still called them pursuit planes, but the Navy called them fighters. But that's what most of us wanted to do and the pay seemed fine so we said let's go. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert T. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 1 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith discusses his background in the Army Air Corps before joining the American Volunteer Group in search of adventure and the honorable mission to protect the Chinese. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d80a22ed1ce8054d08ae0aa94c979075.mp4 7822de2add6097801229d9f77de05ec9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1125edc68fbc6fa44cc9b67ce0ed73c.pdf 4da0c613ba5be0d3af9cd05cccd58466 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert T. Smith Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] R.T. SMITH: So when we signed up to go, we didn't think of ourselves as mercenaries, but it just happens that that is the definition of mercenary and later that's what happens is that we find out that we were. (break) FRANK BORING: Let's just comment again about the mercenary without the smoke around you this time. R.T. SMITH: In later years there's been some talk about whether or not we were mercenaries. Some people resent - some of our own guys - resent the fact that we have been referred to as mercenaries in magazine articles or books or whatever, but I don't quite understand that because the dictionary definition of a mercenary is someone who goes to fight for a foreign government and being paid by a foreign government - that's the definition of a mercenary. Well that certainly fit our description. We were part of the Chinese Air Force. We went over there, we flew under their colors, we were supposedly part of the Chinese Air Force and were being paid by the Chinese Air Force or being paid by China. The fact that China got the money to pay us from the United States, was completely immaterial, as far as I'm concerned, but to draw a fine line as to whether or not we were mercenaries, doesn't bother me to think that I was, any more than the Eagle Squadron guys that went over to fly for Britain before the United States got in the war, they were �mercenaries, they were flying under the British colors, they were paid by the British and they were flying for a cause that they believed in. They were mercenaries. Does that make them any worse? I don't know - not to me. FRANK BORING: Let's now go to - you've already met with Skip Adair, you've already signed up, could you describe how you got out of the Air Corps - what kind of process? R.T. SMITH: Well, after the meeting with Adair, the final one where he signed us up and we were all set now. Within a few days we got TWX's from Washington, D.C. to our headquarters there at Randolph Field that were releasing us from active duty as of a certain date and that meant that we were able to settle up our accounts around the field, turn in our parachutes and all that kind of stuff, and as of a certain date, we were released from active duty. It happened that fast. This of course was because the AVG people in Washington, with Roosevelt's blessing of course and the State Department, had greased the skids and boy, this didn't take long. So the next thing most of us knew, or at least I knew, I was released from active duty. FRANK BORING: So first thing - you got out quite quickly then what was the next step? R.T. SMITH: Yeah, well I had orders relieving me from active duty in the Air Corps Reserve and I was free to leave Randolph Field. The same happened with Green, my roommate and my buddy there, who went at the same time. We were sent money from the organization there in Washington, the American Volunteer Group, to - actually it was called the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation, that was the front company that handled all the business affairs, but we were sent enough money to buy airline tickets to San Francisco and were supposed to report late in July - this was about the 22nd or 23rd of July - in order to be there in plenty of time to get on a boat and go with a few other people heading for the Far East, and �that's what we did. We spent 3 or 4 days in San Francisco and the other guys came in. As I recall we had about 15 pilots and maybe another dozen ground crew people, who assembled at a given hotel there in San Francisco and on a given date we were put aboard a Java Pacific Lines boat, which was kind of a combination passenger and cargo boat, and we headed out through the Golden Gate and on our way to the Far East. That's what happened. We spent the next 7 weeks, practically, before we finally got to Rangoon, Burma. That's kind of a long story, but we went to Honolulu. Spent a day and a half or so there and then out across the Pacific, we thought we were heading for Manila, then turned out we wound up in Australia, Brisbane, Australia for about a day and a half and finally got to Manila, in the Philippines - 3 or 4 days - and then we thought we were heading for Singapore and instead of that we wound up in Batavia, Java - 3 or 4 days more. Finally to Singapore. We thought from Singapore we'd be going on up to Rangoon, Burma, but it turned out we were in Singapore for 10 days before they could get us on another boat to get us to Rangoon. And we finally got on a little Coastwise boat to get us up to Rangoon, but all together the whole trip took about 7 weeks. By the time we got to Rangoon, we had had plenty of shipboard life and were awfully happy to set foot on land again. FRANK BORING: Could you describe any of the high points or low points of the trip over on the boat? R.T. SMITH: Well I'm not sure there were many either high or low points. It just got to be awfully boring. We had a lot of trouble trying to occupy our time. Of course there were a lot of crap games going on and poker games and this and that. Every now and then we'd get out on deck and do a little exercising. They had a - of course this was a Dutch owned boat, Java Pacific Lines was owned by the Netherlands and the Dutch being the great gourmets that they are, our meals were fantastic and they fed us about 4 times a day and we had very good food. They had a bar of course that was open practically the whole time and we helped ourselves to that. The �problem I guess was mostly just boredom and when we did finally hit a landfall and spent couple of days or three days or whatever on these different occasions when we got to some port, it was like being released from jail. We were all very happy to take advantage of it. But it wasn't until we finally got to Rangoon and knew that our whole trip was over, that we really felt good. FRANK BORING: There's a couple of things about being on the ship itself that have been mentioned and you talked about in your book before, one was you guys went there under the passports of different professions. Could you talk a little bit about that? R.T. SMITH: The thing there of course was the United States was not at war with anybody and I guess the State Department was a little bit leery about letting the Japanese know that a bunch of American pilots and ground crew people and all were heading for the Far East to oppose them, so they made it pretty strict that our passports read anything from - I think I was supposed to be a Plantation Manager - of what I don't know - but we had guys who were acrobats and circus performers and salesmen - all different kinds of occupations that were listed on our passports, which none of us were. But that was just simply a ploy I guess, by the State Department to try to cover up the idea that we were going over to get into trouble with the Japanese. FRANK BORING: Can you comment on some of the fellow passengers? R.T. SMITH: It's funny, we had - our group was about 27 or 28 people and there probably another 75 people on this particular boat and I think about probably 20 or 30 of them were missionaries and there were several low level diplomatic people from various countries that were heading for various places throughout the Far East. I guess we had more of a problem with the missionaries than anything else. In the lounge, where they had a piano, which also accommodated the bar, the missionaries were always congregating around the piano and wanting to sing hymns and the rest of us �were over around the bar, singing ribald songs that the missionaries didn't appreciate. But we managed to get along with them all right. They had a bunch of very nice people and we did have some interesting things where some of the people that were on the way over there who had lived there before, gave us little lectures about - in the lounge - about customs of the different countries that we might see and the people and that kind of thing. It was kind of interesting. I don't think the missionaries appreciated our sense of humor too well. FRANK BORING: Could you say that again? That was great. R.T. SMITH: Well the missionaries, of course, they were gathered around the piano playing hymns and singing hymns. Meanwhile over in the other corner of the lounge, we had our record player playing Benny Goodman and Tommy Dorsey records and stuff. FRANK BORING: Could you describe for us the Raffles Hotel in Singapore? R.T. SMITH: When we got to Singapore it turned out that the boat we'd been on all this time that got us to Singapore, was not going to be able to take us on to Rangoon. So we had to be put up in Singapore for a few days until transportation could be arranged on a coastal steamer to take us on up to Rangoon. Most of wound up going to the old famous old Raffles Hotel, which I guess was built around the turn of the century. It was an old, big, spacious place, lots of atmosphere, the old British atmosphere of course. After getting off this boat with its cramped quarters, and we had these big rooms with great big ceiling fans and just big rooms and we were very happy to be put up there and it turned out that we were there for about 10 days. It also turned out that that was sort of the social gathering point of Singapore. The Raffles Hotel was the place for the British. And of course they were very stodgy as we were concerned and very formal and when this bunch of guys came in from the States, we kind of took over a little bit of the Raffles Hotel's scene and I don't think the British appreciated us too much. �We were a little too loud and noisy and full of everything and I don't think they really appreciated it too much, but we managed to get along somehow. FRANK BORING: You were quoted as saying that - about the charm - it had a certain amount of charm? You said, "It has all the charm of a funeral home." R.T. SMITH: Well that was sort of the way the Raffles Hotel was. It was so quiet. The British, of course, in their typical way of understatement. (break) FRANK BORING: You were talking about how it was quiet and that the British… R.T. SMITH: Yeah, well I guess at one time I did make a statement that the Raffles Hotel, the lounge area down there, when we first got there, had all the charm of a funeral home because it was so quiet. The British of course in their subdued and understated way didn't believe in raising their voice or anything and all of a sudden these American guys come in, about 25 of us and we sort of took over the bar and the lounge. We didn't necessarily try to disrupt their way of living, but we were a little bit different than what they were used to and I don't think they appreciated that too much, but eventually I think they understood that we were about to go to war and it wasn't any problem. FRANK BORING: If you could describe your impressions of arrival… you had already you mentioned that you had read books of Kipling and you talked to people on the boat about what you were going to be expecting when you arrived. What were your first impressions upon arriving in Rangoon? R.T. SMITH: Well first I guess was - it was terribly hot, humid and of course I had not seen that many people of that color and of that race and all, �this was a completely new experience. It was all fascinating and we were all quite enthralled when we landed in Rangoon and got to looking around. We wandered around the city for a little while after we first got there and before we had to get on a train to go up north. We were able to take in some of the sights. It was a very pretty city actually. Typically old British colonial city that had been going for a long, long time. But we were quite intrigued with it, not disappointed at all from what we had heard and read about the Far East. This kind of lived up to what we'd expected. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert T. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 2 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith describes his journey overseas to join the AVG from San Francisco to Rangoon, in addition to his first impressions upon arrival. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ded1137ee0926a9f95bbe6b83588b0e8.mp4 6b423758516cb4a296535dbd9a825607 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09002de3637c42baff56c2e8e18a274f.pdf a8170e84f8421fd26fb90748f9258ce8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert T. Smith Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: Around this time the Raffles Hotel and all that and from the trip on the boat, you started to get to know some of these other guys. Can you give us some impressions about the AVGers that you were meeting at that time, just getting to know? R.T. SMITH: Well I got very well acquainted with all of them of course, by the time we got to Rangoon after 7 weeks on the same boat. You're in pretty close quarters. My impressions - number one they were all I thought - real great guys. I didn't have any problem with anybody and we all got along very well. All of them I think were similar to my own situation, they were all looking for adventure and that was the main motivation for going over on this thing. We came from various different backgrounds of course. I think if you had to put an average on the whole group, you would say we were middle American, young men, anywhere from 22 to 25 years of age, I guess our average age was maybe 23 or 24 at that time and all of us came from middle class backgrounds, practically all of us as far as I know. Obviously we were all white - this was before the days of integration of course, but a real nice cross section, I think, of young America. I was happy to be one of them and we got along pretty well and we did get to know each other very well. Some guys of course stood out, there were several in our group that would later become stand-outs. One being Tex Hill. Tex was an ex-Navy pilot and Green and I first met him and a couple of his buddies, Ed Rector and Bert Christman, we met the first day we �arrived in San Francisco and we got acquainted with them right off the bat and then there were of course many others that we got to know as the trip went on. But just as a blanket statement I can say they were just a great bunch of guys. FRANK BORING: I guess what I'm trying to get to is that you were already aware that you were going to be fighting in a war. You knew that you were going to be going ahead of - that you weren't going there as American military or anything like that, you were going to be putting your life on the line, did you have any doubts or did you have any kinds of feelings about the guys that you were going over to fight with? Did you feel like you guys were going to be able to defend yourselves, be able to work together? I guess I'm getting more towards the war aspect of it. R.T. SMITH: Well, I think to answer your question, the fact that the other guys that were going were pretty much a mirror image of myself, they all had confidence in their own ability, their flying qualities and all, they had confidence in the idea that we were going over for a just cause to help the Chinese who were being beaten to hell by the Japanese at this point, I think most of us were sympathetic to the Chinese cause certainly, and antagonistic maybe toward the Japanese. The Japanese of course had been beating the hell out of the Chinese for about 3 or 4 years up to this point and for no reason that any of us knew. So I think all of us had confidence in the other guys. We all went over pretty much for the same reasons and we had confidence in our own ability and that's the way it worked out. FRANK BORING: All right you've arrived in Rangoon. What was the next step? Where did you go from Rangoon? R.T. SMITH: Well from Rangoon a few hours after we arrived in Rangoon they put us on a train to take us up to northern Burma, or at least halfway up to northern Burma. I guess it was about 170 miles up to a little town called Toungoo, Burma. The RAF had an airfield �there that they were not using and previously had been agreed by the American Volunteer Group people and the British that the British would allow us to use that as a gathering point to get our act together, get our airplanes together, our people, do some training and stuff, before moving on up to southwest China. So that's where we wound up. Now the train load that I went up on got into Toungoo and we were about the third bunch that got there. There had been a bunch of about 30 ground crew people who had arrived maybe six or eight weeks before that, who had started the process of assembling the airplanes in Rangoon and these were technicians, almost entirely I guess. Then the second boatload that got there about a month before we did had a whole bunch of pilots and ground crew people and they went up to Toungoo. They had established their quarters and kind of got things organized up there and the third boat that I was on got up there, and then of course, in the next few weeks there were two or three other boats that came on with other people, both pilots and ground crew people, and they kept arriving until about the end of November. It wasn't until about the end of November, after we had gotten into Toungoo, that we had our whole group together and had I guess about all of our airplanes assembled and brought up to Toungoo and of course this amounted to - supposedly we were going to have 100 pilots and 100 P-40's, and about 200 ground crew people. So by the end of November we pretty much had that. We had lost, in the meantime, of course I got in there around the middle of September, and the other guys some of them came in later - but we had lost a number of airplanes in accidents. We had 3 or 4 fatalities, quite a number of airplanes that had been damaged beyond repair in accidents there at the training base in Toungoo and we were not really what you would call a real fit and ready combat outfit at that point at the end of November. Of course was still the same thing, when Pearl Harbor was attacked, we were pretty well organized at that point and we had done most of the training we had wanted to do and had figured to move up to China very shortly, early in December. Of course when Pearl Harbor was attacked on the 7th in Hawaii time, this happened to be the 8th of December where we were on �account of the International Date Line thing, but when we finally heard the word over the radio that the United States was now at war and Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor, now we're in the middle of Burma and the Japanese, we had heard, had already occupied part of Thailand and maybe had some air force people over there and some airplanes and we're sitting about 60 miles away from the border of Thailand with no warning, so we immediately went on alert and went on from there. FRANK BORING: Now the living conditions in Toungoo … you ever got in a P-40? You can talk about that, your arrival there, conditions there. R.T. SMITH: Well when our train pulled in from Rangoon to Toungoo, we were met by some of the guys that already arrived and as a matter of fact they had a little 3 piece Burmese brass band to meet us that was playing "The Stars and Stripes Forever," if you could recognize it. Anyway we were met by these guys and they spent an hour or two in the station restaurant bar before we got there so they were in pretty good shape and of course we were too because we'd brought a few things along with us on the train ride. But they got us out to our field and took over and it was night and we got out and they told us where we were supposed to go and went to these bamboo bashes that were our quarters. It wasn't of course until the next day that we really realized that we were in some pretty primitive living conditions. The climate there was not too good. It was still the rainy season when we got there and it was about due to end, but we were having thunder storms 2 or 3 times a day and a lot of rain and we couldn't do much flying. The living conditions, the food was bad - this was provided by Burmese contractors who were supposed to supply the mess facilities. The quarters we were in were barracks type bungalows with thatched roofs and no screens, lots of mosquitos and lots of other kinds of insects. It was kind of miserable. But the thing we had gone over of course was to fly airplanes and they did have some P-40's there and after 3 or 4 days of getting acclimatized a little bit, we were gonna check out in the P-40. All of us who had come over, the pilots, were assigned to �various of the three squadrons. I think 5 or 6 of us that were in the outfit that I was on, on the old Bloemfontein boat coming over, were assigned to the Third Squadron and after 3 or 4 days we were gonna check out in the P-40. I had seen a P-40 at Hickam Field on our way over. We stopped at Honolulu for a couple of days on the way over in the boat and I had gone out to Hickam Field to see an old friend of mine and he pointed out some P-40's and that was the first time I had seen one. I was given a cockpit check, had read up a little bit in the book, the flight manual, about how to fly this thing and then I checked out in the P-40 and I was like a kid with a new toy. This was something else, I had a lot of power out there and the airplane was a real dream to fly as far as I was concerned and I loved it from the moment I got in it. The other guys checked out also the same way. The next 3 or 4 weeks we got in more time flying the airplane. It was difficult because we were running into bad weather. There was a lot of thunderstorms and rain - it was the end of the rainy season but it seemed to hang on longer than usual. In the meantime, there wasn't much to do in and around Toungoo. I guess they had an old movie about once a week or so that they played at the mess hall. Which was usually something about 1935 vintage, black and white and the projector didn't work too well and the sound wasn't any good and this was our recreation. We were about 7 or 8 miles from the city of Toungoo and the city of Toungoo - maybe 50,000 population and of that number a very few that were of British extraction or whatever. Most of them were of course Burmese and there wasn't a hell of a lot to do in Toungoo even if you went in there. So we were pretty bored and it was not a very pleasant situation physically because of the climate and the bugs and every other damn thing. But most of us decided well we'll put up with it. That's what we came over for, we weren't expecting summer camp. Some of the guys decided this was not what they wanted and they quit and went home - some of the pilots, some of the ground crew people. We of course thought well okay, good riddance. If they can't take it let them go. I guess that's the way Chennault thought of it. Chennault himself of course was a tough old guy. He pretty much has been pictured looked like a road map - �his face wrinkled and weather beaten and all, but he had a good sense of humor, he was a good athlete, he loved to play games with us like - hell he was always involved in our softball games or volley ball or whatever that we did for recreation. He was tough but fair and he sure knew his business when it came to what the Japs were up to and what their airplanes could do. We had ground school all the time during this period in Toungoo while we were training. He held ground school courses for us and tried to teach us what not to do and what to do as far as fighting the Japanese airplanes went. We were all quite taken with the old man, he was a great guy. FRANK BORING: You were a flight instructor yourself. How did you rate Chennault as a flight instructor? R.T. SMITH: Well he wasn't a flight instructor as far as we were concerned. Hell, he never got in an airplane with us and told us how to do something. But what he did was tell us his experience as what he knew about what the Japanese planes could do as opposed to what we could do against them with the P-40. That was the big thing. He knew the things that would work to our advantage with the P-40 and the deficiencies that the Japanese planes had that we could try to take advantage of. So in that respect he was our instructor but he never got in an airplane with us and told us how to fly it. FRANK BORING: What was your impression of the Japanese as pilots before he started educating you in that? R.T. SMITH: Well I was not one that - they thought the Japanese pilots weren't good. I remember that every now and then you'd read something somebody had the idea that the Japanese all wore coke bottle lenses for glasses and none of them could see worth a damn and they couldn't fly anything and that their airplanes were all copies of things that other people had built and they weren't any good. I never quite subscribed to all of that kind of stuff. I expected to run �into some pretty damn good pilots and I did and all of us did. So I wasn't surprised when we ran up against some good pilots. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert T. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 3 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith discusses his first impressions of his fellow Flying Tigers and how they embarked on this journey together, in addition to their arrival in Toungoo and their reaction to the news of Pearl Harbor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b90d3b27356f51e99f483a690550c77.mp4 ec70c40265861649f2f8ac74dcb254e6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d31b24be93f4062943713e2841b82689.pdf 2cdb79a43ea2e12d01e42901c49180de PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert T. Smith Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: Just beyond just the training part of this to the camera… R.T. SMITH: Well in the training that we went through there, of course the biggest problem I guess that we had was the fact that our group, our pilots were composed of ex-Navy, ex-Marine Corps, ex-Air Corps people, many of whom had not been flying fighters or pursuit planes in the Air Corps. We had a lot of guys like myself - I was an instructor. We had guys from the Navy that had been flying PBY's, flying boats, guys from the Navy that had been flying dive bombers, no fighters, we had guys from the Air Corps who had been ferrying airplanes, bombers, to Canada from the United States, we had all kinds of people and only of the whole bunch, maybe 25% who could legitimately be called fighter pilots or pursuit pilots, who had had any kind of training in that kind of an airplane and gunnery training and all that. So we had this training problem, people trying to learn how to fly this P-40, which was not the easiest airplane in the world to fly anyway and the Navy guys had a lot of trouble. They were used to landing like they were gonna come in on a carrier deck. They would land, stall out in a three point position maybe five feet above the deck and flop down and the hook would catch them. Well this didn't work of course with the P-40. When the P-40 landed, hell it touched down at about 90 to 100 miles an hour and you didn't dare land that thing high and then stall in because if you did you were gonna smash the gear and ground loop and raise hell. This happened of course a great �deal with some of the guys that were flying and not only the Navy guys, hell we had Air Corps guys that were doing the same thing. As a result, we lost a lot of airplanes in training accidents. Fortunately we only lost 2 or 3 pilots lives in those conditions, but we did lose 2 or 3 that I recall. One guy - two of our P-40's up on a combat training exercise where they were gonna being doing individual combat with each other and they had a head-on collision and one guy managed to bail out and he came down all right and the other guy didn't get out so he was killed and on another occasion Pete Atkinson, in particular. (break) R.T. SMITH: Another accident that we had at that time was a guy named Pete Atkinson who was an engineering officer for the First Squadron, I believe it was, he may have been group engineering office, well anyway, he went up to test fly one of our… (break) FRANK BORING: If we could start up with Pete Atkinson also his relationship to you. R.T. SMITH: Well I had no particular relationship with him except that I knew him. He was a guy that I liked and he was in a different squadron, but he was up testing an airplane one day and was doing a dive and something went wrong. Apparently the propeller governor gave way and ran away and the engine I guess blew up and he was coming straight down and wasn't able t pull out and he was killed. All of us were upset about that of course and it turned out that part of his elevator - one half of his elevator apparently blew off while he was coming down in this high speed dive and later it turned out that another one seemed to have that same problem and so all of a sudden the airplanes were suspect and they started having to check all of them and make sure that the elevator hinges and all that were working right. Pete was lost on that. We had another guy, one of the guys that came over on the boat that I was on named Max �Hammer, he was up flying a P-40 and wound up in a thunderstorm not too far away from our base there and apparently got disoriented in this violent thunderstorm and spun in and he was killed. So we had some accidents that were fatal, we had a lot of them that weren't fatal, we lost a lot of airplanes. At one time I think Chennault was about fit to be tied, figuring my God, if we keep going like this another six weeks, we won't have any airplanes left to fight with. Well it wasn't quite that bad of course, but these things did happen and eventually we managed to get over it and we wound up with enough pilots that were able to fly the airplanes and knew what they were doing that we were able to go into combat when the time came. FRANK BORING: Once training period was over with in Toungoo, where was the next step? Where did you go next? R.T. SMITH: Well that wasn't until after Pearl Harbor was attacked. It was decided very shortly after that that Chennault wanted to send two squadrons - we only had three squadrons of course - and he wanted to send two of the squadrons up to Kunming, which was where we had been planning to go anyway about that time and the British asked for a squadron to come down and help defend Rangoon, being the shipping port for Burma and Chennault and Chiang Kaishek and the people in China agreed to allow one squadron to go to Rangoon. It happened that it was the Third Squadron, which is the one that I was in that was sent to Rangoon and a few days later the other two squadrons moved up to Kunming. At that point the only thing left at Toungoo was maybe half a dozen airplanes that needed some work done on them to get them flyable and a skeleton crew of people, mechanics and ground crew people to do that. FRANK BORING: Where did you come up with - or who came up with the name for the Third Squadron? R.T. SMITH: The Hell's Angels? I don't really know. That's always been a mystery to me. I don't recall that we ever had a meeting of the �squadron to decide what we would call ourselves. All of a sudden, as far as I knew, somebody had decided we would be the Hell's Angels Squadron and one of our crew chiefs was quite a talented artist and he had drawn this outline of a red nude figure, with a halo and that was gonna be our squadron insignia and then later this same guy drew individual figures of this angel in different poses as individual insignias for different guys. I had one - he drew one for me that was kind of seated - like sitting on a cloud or something and he did different individual poses for different pilots. But anyway I don't know exactly how that came about, but it was decided that we would be the Hell's Angels Squadron. FRANK BORING: How about the shark’s teeth - what can you tell us about that? R.T. SMITH: Well the shark's teeth - a couple of our guys at one point there in Toungoo had gone to a party someplace at a British guy's house and there was a magazine called the "Illustrated Indian Weekly" or something that came out of Calcutta, India and it had a picture - I guess it was a color picture - of a P-40 in the African desert that was an RAF P-40 and it was in the Libyan campaign and it had a shark's mouth painted on it. A couple of our guys happened to be there at this party that day and they saw that and said hey that looks pretty good, so they got back to the field and took a piece of chalk and marked out a shark's mouth on one of the P-40's and painted it up and had Chennault come by and take a look at it and said what do you think - and I guess the guys decided they wanted that for their own squadron and Chennault at that point said "that looks pretty good. Let's do the whole group that way." So that's what happened. The strange part is that there was never again pattern for this, no stencil or anything like that was ever made. So when it was decided that each guy could do his own airplane, each guy drew it and so no two were exactly alike. Well let me say something about that though, the sharks thing. There's been a lot written, I've seen in books about we decided that we would make these things Tiger Sharks because the Japanese were deathly afraid of sharks, Tiger Sharks particularly and so we would make the �shark mouth to scare the hell out of them - well hell, we never even thought of that and I'm sure that not many Japanese airplanes in the sky that we came after ever saw the shark's mouth, they saw a lot of machine gun shooting at them, but not too much of the shark's mouth. But that was one of the stories that was written about how we were gonna intimidate them by putting on that shark's mouth. FRANK BORING: What was your reaction to hearing that Pearl Harbor had been bombed? R.T. SMITH: I thought it was awful. FRANK BORING: I guess what I'm looking for is, you had stopped off in Honolulu and I know that some of the guys that were in the AVG actually knew people that were there and it was also a major turning point in terms of the action. At that point there was a lot of - you were getting kind of antsy about getting into battle. R.T. SMITH: I don't think, after we had arrived in Burma and were in Toungoo for a while and we knew that the Japanese had already moved some troops and air people into Indo-China and we had heard that they were moving into Thailand, so we were not exactly - I think the thing that we were surprised at was that the attack came at Pearl Harbor, not that the Japanese had attacked and started things going, it was the fact that they had attacked Pearl Harbor. I don't think any of us had expected that. But the fact that we were all of a sudden at war with Japan, didn't surprise us at all and we were quite prepared that this was gonna happen before long. (break) FRANK BORING: So you said you were prepared… R.T. SMITH: Oh yeah, we figured that the Japanese were gonna start something some place over in the Far East and that we would be right in the middle of it, the minute it happened. But as I say, the thing that �surprised us was that they attacked Pearl Harbor. If they had attacked the Philippines, Hong Kong, Singapore, we would have expected that much more readily than we did the idea of Pearl Harbor being attacked. But we weren't terribly surprised when something happened like that and we knew we were in the middle of things when it did happen. FRANK BORING: When did you first have contact - when did you first actually see combat with the Japanese? If you could describe that day and what happened? R.T. SMITH: The squadron I was in was sent to Rangoon to help protect that being the port where all the military supplies, lend-lease or whatever, was gonna come in to eventually get to China. So the Third Squadron was sent down there. The other two squadrons a few days later were sent up to China and when my squadron got down to Rangoon, which was about the 12th of December, we stood at alert. The British meanwhile had a squadron of Brewster Buffaloes down there and they had a radar set up and we were supposed to work closely with them. We stood at alert, we went up on a few false alarms where they thought there was something coming in and nothing happened. This went on for some days and it wasn't until the 23rd of December, which was just a couple of weeks after Pearl Harbor, that the radar reported a big bunch of Japanese planes coming from Thailand toward Rangoon. So on that particular occasion my squadron, the Third, got 14 P-40's up. I think the Brewster's got about the same number of Brewster Buffaloes up. I don't think they did much damage later but they were up at least. There were two flights of our P-40's - seven in each flight - and we were patrolling southeast of Rangoon and all of a sudden off in the distance we saw these huge swarms of Japanese bombers coming toward us followed by a bunch of - a couple more swarms of Japanese fighters and that was our first sight of the Japanese and we headed in their direction and they were heading in our direction and we intercepted them, started attacking the bomber formation. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert T. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 4 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith describes the training period in Toungoo, his experience belonging to the Third Squadron, and their first combat with the Japanese pilots near Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/28fce4e50a1d0db5b36957fa9a294dfa.mp4 6a98a745b0bcff62e32681fa132f1adf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8963228ec1f97fb238df085e3559c5ca.pdf 98b38c126d9591be423605c3402136b7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert T. Smith Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: Just start with the sighting of the Japanese. R.T. SMITH: Well when we saw them in the distance and of course they were some miles away when we first saw them. It was just a bunch of specks together, but it obviously was a big formation of Japanese airplanes heading our way and when we finally got up to them it turned out there were two formations, 27 twin engine bombers in each formation and behind and above each bomber formation, maybe a dozen or so of single engine Jap fighters. So each of our flights went after one of the bomber formations and started pecking away at them and that was the first aerial gunnery that many of us had had any experience at all with and I gotta tell you, that was onthe-job training to the utmost because most of us had never fired at an aerial target until we actually shooting at the Japanese. So it took a little while to figure out exactly where you wanted to do this and most of us figured out pretty early in the game that the best way to shoot at a Japanese airplane was to not have any deflection at all, be able to come up behind him and shoot with no deflection so you didn't have to try to come in from the side and lead him and all. So after about the third pass I decided that was what I wanted to do and I picked up on a bomber that was off to one side a little bit from the main formation, pulled up behind him and opened up at about maybe 200 yards and bored in directly astern and saw flashes all over the place and the next thing I know the damn thing blew up in front of me and I'm pulling up to try to get up above �him and the bomber just plain blew up and a piece of his - one of his engine cylinder heads I guess it was, went up through my left wing and I was blown up like a leaf in a windstorm and the only thing I knew for sure was that I was still in one piece, I still had control of my airplane although it had been blown up in the explosion pretty well, but everything seemed to be working and I remember the greatest feeling of glee that I guess I've ever felt at knowing that I had blown this guy out of the sky. That was a complete feeling of accomplishment as far as I was concerned. So then I came back in and started making passes at the other guys and about that time, the fighters started coming down and making life miserable and we had to dive away from them to get away, come back and try to make another pass at a bomber and then another fighter would come down. Well this went on for another 20 or 30 minutes and meanwhile the other guys were going through pretty much the same thing I was going through. They were shooting at Japanese planes and getting shot at times and unfortunately, a couple of them got shot down and were killed. Neal Martin and… (break) R.T. SMITH: A couple of our guys who had dived into these bomber formations weren't quite as fortunate as I was and the rest of our guys. Neal Martin was shot down by the bombers as he came down attacking and I think very shortly after that, Hank Gilbert was shot down - I believe he was jumped by 2 or 3 Jap fighters who shot him down and they were both shot down and killed. Meanwhile my old buddy, Paul Green who had come out of Randolph Field with me and decided to join up on this thing, he was shot down by Jap fighters but he managed to bail out. He was shot out of control and got out of his airplane, bailed out and then a couple of Jap fighters followed him down and started strafing him while he was in his parachute floating down not too far away from our airfield there in Rangoon. They put a few holes in his parachute but fortunately they didn't hit him and he landed in a rice paddy and eventually got back to our base. But we had lost 3 planes, two pilots killed and I �guess when we finally got to tallying the whole thing up, we figured we had shot down 8 or 10 Japanese planes, but this isn't quite what we had in mind of course. It was two days later came the Christmas day raid, which was even bigger than the one on the 23rd. On Christmas day we only had 13 P-40's and pilots that we could get up and we sailed off into another big armada of Japanese bombers and fighters coming toward us and this time they had even more Japanese planes and we had 13 P-40's. But this time the guys that had gone back up on Christmas day, were guys that had been bloodied a little bit, if you will, in the 23rd fight. We knew a little more what to expect. We had had a little experience. We'd gotten over some of the buck fever, which is inevitable I guess in any kind of a thing like that, and so we sailed into them pretty good on the 25th. I think before the day was over we'd knocked down somewhere between 20 and 25 Japanese fighters and bombers with 13 P-40's and that was probably the best day that my squadron ever had against the Japanese - and that was Christmas day of 1941. (break) R.T. SMITH: Well, in my own case, I was in McMillan's flight and we started peeling off against this first bomber formation, much as we had done on the 23rd. It wasn't too long before I had gotten behind another twin engine Sally bomber and it caught fire on the right hand wing - the right hand engine caught fire and it just sort of peeled off and was smoking like crazy and that's the last I saw of that. Pretty soon I had to turn away and I saw there was a fighter coming at me and I knew it was one of their fighters because it had this big radial engine out there. Well anyway, we squared away at each other maybe 1000 yards apart, got head-on and I opened up at him with what I guess to be about 5 or 600 yards and I could see his guns blinking and firing at me also and I don't recall either of us taking any evasive action, but we just kept firing until we passed and somehow I passed just directly above this guy and I doubt if our prop tips cleared by more than about a foot. I whipped into a turn to the left as hard as I could to see if I was going to be �able to get around and get another shot at this guy and when I turned and finally could see him, he was blazing like a torch and heading down toward the Gulf of Martaban, which is where we were by this time out over the Gulf water, and he just went down like a torch. I was quite relieved to see that because I had expected he'd outturn me and come back and be taking another shot at me. I went out on over the Gulf of Martaban which was heading from Rangoon toward Moulmein, the old Moulmein Pagoda and this was this big shark-infested water area that we had to fly over and I ran across a couple more of our guys and a few more Japanese bombers, now heading for home and 3 or 4 of us were nipping at their heels and we managed to shoot down another 2 or 3 of them before they got back over toward the mainland of Thailand and eventually we ran out of ammunition and were about out of fuel and had to head for home. We finally got back and landed and we discovered that two of our guys were missing, two airplanes and two guys were missing. We thought they'd probably been shot down and killed like in the first day's fighting but it turned out that both of them had been - their airplanes had been damaged, their engines had been shot up and they'd had to make crash landings in the rice paddies and before the night was over they both showed up and we had a big party. That one was the one where we came out and we lost two airplanes but no pilots and we'd shot down quite a big bunch of Japanese. FRANK BORING: What was the reaction of the pilots when they arrived back to the airfield and the ground crew after these big battles - what was the mood like? The 23rd when you first came back after your first engagement, what was the reaction like when you got back on the ground? R.T. SMITH: Well when I pulled in my crew chief jumped up on the wing and I had the canopy back and he jumped on the wing and said "How'd it go R.T.?" and I said "It went pretty well. I got a couple of the bastards." and he said "Great" and I said - by this time most of the other guys had landed and I said "Is anybody missing?" and Jess, �his name was Jess Crookshanks, a great crew chief of mine from Tennessee, and Jess said "Yeah, there's three of our guys are missing." I said "Oh lord, who are they, Jess?" and he said "Well Gilbert and Martin and P.J. Green" and I thought oh Lord, Green of course having been my closest buddy from old times at Randolph Field and we were roommates in the BOQ there and we'd gone over together. The last thing I said to his mom in Amarillo, Texas or Clarendon, Texas as we were leaving to go to San Francisco to get on the boat, she said "You take good care of Paul now R.T." and I said "You bet I will". So I mean these thoughts were going through my mind. As of course it turned out that Paul had been able to bail out and he got down okay. Martin and Gilbert were killed. But the crew chiefs and our ground crew people all were terribly excited and wanting to know - and of course they couldn't tell what the hell happened. (break) FRANK BORING: The crew chief's reactions… R.T. SMITH: Well later after the airplanes had been serviced and reloaded with ammunition and refueled and all that kind of stuff and of course everybody got together at the alert tents and of course in the evening when we knew that we weren't going to be called upon to do anymore flying, why there was quite a feeling of camaraderie among all of us, the crew chiefs, the pilots, everybody else, figuring that we'd done a reasonably good job, but not as good as we had hoped to do. Of course we were all upset about the loss of the pilots that we'd lost. There was definitely a feeling of - wait till next time, we'll get the bastards. So I think all of our guys were gung ho including the pilots and next shot we'll do better and we did. FRANK BORING After the first two battles, what was the daily routine like. I mean now that you'd had these two major battles in December and January what else was going on? �R.T. SMITH: Well we had to stand on alert. We had an alert flight of 8 airplanes that were ready to go on 30 minutes’ notice and a stand-by flight of another 4 an hour notice. We had an alert tent at the edge of the runway near where the airplanes were parked and we had a direct telephone line to the British headquarters where they had the radar set, so if there was any kind of an alert warning, why we would get in our alert tent and we'd go out, get in our airplanes, take off and go patrolling and looking for trouble. Well this happened quite often. We had a lot of false alarms and this happened quite often, but actually my squadrons, the only two actual fights that we got into were on the 23rd and the 25th and then it was decided Chennault up in China now decided that he would relieve the Third Squadron in Rangoon by sending the Second Squadron from Kunming. They hadn't been in anything, send them down, relieve us, let us bring our wounded airplanes home and our people and try to get everything squared away up in China so that the Second Squadron took over. That's what happened. FRANK BORING: If you would describe the reaction of the crew chiefs and pilots after the first encounter on the 23rd, saying you're gonna go out and get those bastards and then you had the second on the 25th you got a chance to actually go out and do it. What was our reaction and the reaction of the other people when you came back from that second battle? R.T. SMITH: Well I don't know - it was pretty much I suppose the same way that it was the first time. Individually we didn't know what the other guys had all done at this point. We knew what we had done as an individual and from viewing the overall thing, we figured we’d done pretty well. But it wasn't until after we'd gotten home and started counting up what this guy had done and what that guy had done and all that, that we were quite aware of how well we had done. I was very pleased with myself that particular day and I guess everybody else was. We didn't know what the other guys had done. �FRANK BORING: I guess it's when you arrived home and you started tallying it up. What we're looking for I guess is just - I don't think you sat around and well "how many did you get?" � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert T. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 5 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith discusses his first two major battles and the reactions of the ground crew, in addition to their daily routines in the days that followed. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/13e0752401df53b50310b6ffaf2e36b8.mp4 8bbe037b2486555bf7bb321c3e0408ad https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d12803e1a8e5b62b7831390ef772ca06.pdf f81b7f1e5b5faa84bddb9422a145b481 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert T. Smith Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] FRANK BORING: About the confidence and the reaction... R.T. SMITH: I thought we did that? FRANK BORING: It wasn't on tape. R.T. SMITH: Well I think all of us, after the fight on the 25th when we came back and finally got our reports written and each of us had explained what had happened to him individually and we started putting the whole picture together, it was obvious that we had done an awful lot better than we had on the 23rd and of course of particular note was the fact that we had lost a couple of airplanes, but the guys survived. They put the airplanes down in crash landings and they survived. So we knew at that point that we'd done a great deal better than we'd done on the 23rd and we all felt much more confident about our own ability and about our airplanes and about the whole deal, than we had maybe two days before that. FRANK BORING: What was the situation like in Kunming when you arrived there? You had never been to China up to this point? So what was your reaction to it? What were the living conditions were like compared to Rangoon? R.T. SMITH: I guess it was on the 31st of December that my squadron was supposed to be relieved by the Second Squadron that was coming �into Rangoon from Kunming. We in turn then were gonna fly up to Kunming. We flew up the night before that up to Toungoo and overnighted there and then on the next day, on the 31st, to Kunming. It was a completely different scene. Kunming is on a high plateau 6000 feet above sea level and mountains all around. But it was cool up there, in fact it was winter time and quite cool as opposed to what we were going through in Rangoon. Of course it was a completely strange atmosphere. None of us had ever been to China before and all of a sudden here we are in the middle of southwestern China. It's hard to describe - the cultural shock is something else - you're not used to seeing all these people with these foreign features and none of them speak English. By this time, however, when they saw an American going through town in a jeep or something and we were in our leather jackets or whatever and they knew that we were Americans that were flying and fighting for them, by this time they'd already started calling us Flying Tigers apparently. The Chinese press had dubbed us Flying Tigers and so when our little cavalcades went through town on the way from our hostel to the airfield, these people would all cheer and they were all very happy with us and of course we were happy to be greeted that way. But the weather was cold and kind of nasty at times, rainy and overcast and the one nice thing about it was that the food was so much better. We had hostels set up there that had been pre-planned all along and our hostels had individual rooms for the pilots and a good mess, decent food, hot baths, all kinds of wonderful goodies that you expect to get back home, but we were not getting in Burma. So it was a big thrill to get up there and be able to enjoy life for a while and we did. FRANK BORING: R.T. if we could just go over the comments about the Chinese reaction of you going through the village, through town. Just about the fact that you arrived and they already knew who you were R.T. SMITH: Well when we arrived and we were being transported from the airfield for instance, to our hostel, which was across town and we'd be traveling by jeep or truck or sedan or however, the Chinese �people were just great because they would recognize us as being people who had come over and had already bloodied the Japanese a little bit, which they had not seen done in many years and we were their heroes and in fact the Chinese press and then the people picked it up - started calling us Flying Tigers. Well that amused the hell out of us. We didn't know where that came from, but the Chinese are the ones that came up with that Flying Tigers thing. But they were all - boy they couldn't wave to us and greet us enough. Of course that made us feel good. FRANK BORING: What was the routine like in Kunming? Were you flying? The airplanes were being repaired. Describe to us what was going on. R.T. SMITH: Well mostly in Kunming it was practically like R&R. We were on alert. We always had an alert squadron ready to go in case the Japanese came up toward Kunming. For years they had been bombing the hell out of Kunming from Indo-China and eastern China and all of a sudden, now that we were there, they weren't coming in. So we didn't really have too much to do. We'd go out to the field, spend the day on alert, maybe fly around a little bit just for fun, but we weren't in any combat for quite a little while there. So this was like R&R after Rangoon. FRANK BORING: What was the next occasion where you were called into combat again? R.T. SMITH: I didn't actually get into combat again until I think until March or April. One thing I should explain to you, let's see we got up there first of January and early February, I was one of six that went to Africa to pick up a P-40 to fly back to Kunming - six of us went. It took us five weeks to do that. We didn't get back until the end of March. It was April when I finally got back down into Loiwing and that area when I got back into a combat situation. FRANK BORING: That's the P-40E's right? It's Olson, McMillan, P.J. … �R.T. SMITH: No. McMillan, Green, myself, Older, Hedman and Laughlin. FRANK BORING: Would you tell us about that trip? R.T. SMITH: My squadron was enjoying life pretty well in Kunming after the hassle in Rangoon in January and it was in early February that we found out that the U.S. was going to allow the Chinese to have a few more P-40 airplanes and one thing developed into another and the next thing I know, Chennault had said to the Third Squadron, our Squadron Commander, Ole Olson, said "We can get six more P-40E models that are in Africa and we gotta go pick them up." So he told Ole to pick six pilots and send them to Africa to bring back six P-40E's. Of course we were all delighted with this idea, particularly since the P-40E had six 50 caliber machine guns, which is a lot better fire power than our older model airplanes and of course all of us wanted to go on this ferry trip. We thought this sounded like a great adventure and a little time off and a chance to see some of the other parts of the world. I was lucky enough to be one of the six that was chosen by Olson to go and pick up these airplanes. So it turns out that McMillan was gonna be our fearless leader and McMillan and Green and myself and Chuck Older and Tommy Haywood and Link Laughlin were the others. We took off - CNAC flew us to Calcutta and a day or two later we were able to get on a British overseas flying boat heading for Karachi, India. Flew all the way across India on this big 4 engine flying boat, quite similar to a Yankee Clipper or the Pan Am Clippers that were flying Pacific. We went on from Karachi then to Cairo, Egypt, where we thought the airplanes were gonna be. We get to Cairo, land on the Nile in this flying boat and went into the city and discovered that the airplanes were in a crawl on the Gold Coast of Africa, which is now Ghana. This meant we had to go almost as far from Cairo to get to pick them up as we'd already come. Well we had to arrange and got on a Pan American - had a survey route that they were doing for the Air Transport Command at that point, and they were flying around over Africa and we were able to get aboard one of their C-47's and fly down to Khartoum and then �across to the Gold Coast of Africa, another few day it took. We got there and sure enough there were six P-40E's there for us. We spent 2 or 3 days there getting organized again and checking out our airplanes. We each flew the airplane we were gonna fly back at least once, making sure it was gonna work all right. Then we started back across Africa toward China with these six P-40's. This was quite an adventure. We ran into sand storms along the way, engine problems, tire problems, every kind of a problem you can think of. Eventually we finally got 4 out of the six back up to Cairo at one time. I was one of the guys that didn't make it out of the four. I'd had a little trouble along the way and I was a day or two late getting into Cairo, but eventually we all got into Cairo. Then we started off from Cairo by way of Palestine, which it was called in those days. We landed at Tel Aviv. Then we flew across Syria and into what is now Iraq and down the Euphrates River and into places now in the Middle East that have been in the news so much lately, Bahrain? and different places that we landed for fuel and eventually kept flying until we got to Karachi and at that point the Air Corps had a bunch of people there in Karachi that could examine our airplanes and kind of tune them up a little bit and kind of tune our guns a little bit and eventually we got going and flew across India and up into the northeastern part of India to Assam and then across the Hump. Finally got back into Kunming exactly five weeks after we had left. But we got all six of them back eventually and it turned out to be quite an adventurous trip and I wouldn't take a million dollars for it, but I sure wouldn't do it again for a million and we got all the airplanes back okay. FRANK BORING: What was the reaction and what were the differences I suppose in the older model airplane and the P-40E? R.T. SMITH: Well there wasn't a great deal of difference. The airplanes were basically the same, they still had pretty much the same engine and the airframe and the whole thing - the biggest deal the difference was that the E model, the later model had three 50 caliber machine guns in each wing, whereas our old ones had two 30 calibers in �each wing and our old ones had two 50's firing through the propeller which wasn't as satisfactory and the E models didn't have anything flying through the props. So the fire power difference was, hell it was 150 percent better than what we'd had before and this made a big difference. FRANK BORING: Did you get a chance to fly that P-40E then - was that one of your airplanes then? R.T. SMITH: I didn't fly it as much as I did the older model. Our squadron wound up keeping the earlier models and we didn't wind up with too many of the new ones. Eventually of course we got more E models in. I was one of the six that brought in the first bunch, but eventually as time progressed we were getting a few more from time to time of the E models. Most of those went to the Second and First Squadrons and the squadron I was in didn't get too many of them. I flew the E model on 3 or 4 occasions in combat. In fact I shot down one Japanese airplane with an E model and was completely amazed at the fire power on this thing. But the E models mostly went to the Second Squadron, which is almost all Navy guys and they were gonna make - the E model also for a change had provisions to - you could mount a belly tank on the fuselage, the mid-line fuselage - you could mount a belly tank or a 500 pound bomb and I think they also had provisions to put a couple of wing racks on for very small bombs on the wings. So the fact that the Navy guys were the most prominent in the Second Squadron, many of them had dive bombing experience, it was decided they were the ones could carry the bombs and maybe do a little dive bombing, which they did and did quite well at it as a matter of fact, as the thing went on. But the squadron I was in didn't get too many of those. It was only on occasion when we were all mixed up, maybe two or three squadrons were mixed together, which happened on a few occasions, where I wound up with an E model to fly on a given occasion. �FRANK BORING: We get to April of that year, you had written in your diary that you had 12 planes left and you wrote that you felt like it was 12 planes against the whole Japanese Air Force. R.T. SMITH: Well that was in my squadron. FRANK BORING: What was that particular period of time? You were going up again and you were going back into battle by that time in April? R.T. SMITH: I think we were in Magwe, a little air base in northern - well it was right on the northern Burma border of China. Loiwing I think is where we were at that time and my squadron had 12 airplanes and we were the only ones there at that time and we felt like we were kind of outnumbered a little bit. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert T. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 6 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith describes the living conditions in Kunming and the reaction of the Chinese people to the Flying Tigers, in addition to their five week trip to pick up P-40E airplanes in Africa. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9b115f7fea5bd8d3732cbd5dc84bee7.mp4 ba57d4561d41ac607e56177259168bf9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c256829de2ca1127f6b251cba881fca0.pdf c3952465b2f1082ac3412f02ac2813d3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert T. Smith Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] R.T. SMITH: Well, when I got back from the African trip, I spent a few days in Kunming relaxing and enjoying life again and it was about that time that the squadron, my squadron was sent down to Loiwing, China, which was right next to the Burma border and near the Salween River. Meanwhile, while I had been gone, our guys had been kicked out of Rangoon. The First and Second Squadrons had been pushed out of Rangoon and worked their way up through Magwe and the other places and some of them now were coming back to Kunming and others were moving up to this little airfield called Loiwing and the squadron I was in was sent down to join up with them and we were gonna carry on from there. The Japanese ground army had been pounding all the way up north into Burma and their airfields - they had taken over the airfield in Rangoon, they had taken over the airfield in Toungoo and other places that we at one time had occupied. But they kept moving up north and we had to… (break) R.T. SMITH: So my squadron it was decided they would be moved to Loiwing. We went down there and then we started flying some missions down - the Chinese had some ground army down in the vicinity of Toungoo and it was decided that we would fly some morale missions to go down and show the Chinese star on our wings and try to make the ground army feel good. We didn't like those because we had to do it at low altitude and every now and then �we'd get jumped by Jap fighters and we got into a few scraps that way. But actually there wasn't too much activity for a while. Then eventually we started going out and doing some offensive raids into Indo-China and Thailand trying to catch them on the ground with their airplanes and shooting up their airfields. Go on raids and all and we did that a few times. We lost a few airplanes and a few pilots doing that and then the Japs started coming back and trying to catch us unawares at Loiwing and they did that a time or two. One morning early, they caught us before we could get our airplanes ready to go. This went on for some weeks and there were a lot of fights going on, but a different kind of activity. FRANK BORING: ………missions and I know that it did cause a certain amount of dissention among the ranks. Could you talk about that a little bit? R.T. SMITH: Well this was something I guess that the Chinese - Chiang Kaishek and his people decided they wanted to do to show the Chinese troops that there were Chinese airplanes around to help protect them. Because our airplanes had the Chinese twelve pointed star on the wing and all. So they wanted us to fly that - well hell, in order for the Chinese troops to see what the insignia looked like, we had to fly pretty low - 1000 feet or so. Well this meant that we were exposed - we were flying down, this was in the front line area where the Chinese and the Japanese were fighting each other on the ground and the Japanese had airfields all behind that area and all we had to do was fly down there at 1000 feet and expect to find a few Jap fighters coming down on top of us. This did not sit well with us and we let that be known pretty well to Chennault, and he in turn passed that on I guess to Chiang Kai-shek and eventually that sort of thing was kind of stopped. This was a lousy way to run a railroad as far as we were concerned. FRANK BORING: There actually was a confrontation I understand with Chennault. Perhaps the only one you ever really got into with him. �R.T. SMITH: Yeah, that was part of it. At one point someplace there in Loiwing there were several missions that were proposed. Those morale missions were among them. There were a couple of others that they wanted to run taking some P-40's to escort a bunch of British RAF Blenheim bombers over to Chiang Mai to bomb that airfield and we were supposed to send a few P-40's along to escort them at low altitude in daylight, 160 miles into enemy territory and that was a complete idiot mission and all of our people were involved in that sort of thing. Brought that to the attention of Chennault and Chennault was saying "Well this is what we're supposed to do" and by this time Stillwell, who was a ground officer and who was over Chennault in that area had told him this was one of the missions he wanted him to do and Chennault reported back to Stillwell "Well our guys say they're not gonna do it." So it was one of those funny thing where all of our guys got together and said we're gonna tell Chennault this is a stupid mission and knock it off. Chennault comes back - of course we have this big meeting - and Chennault came back and said "Listen, you're gonna take orders or else you're gonna be guilty of desertion and all of you will be subjected to dishonorable discharges." Well hell, we're all civilians and who ever heard of a dishonorable discharge in a civilian organization? So we brought that point up too. We had this big meeting and hashed it out. It came up to be one of those things where about 5 out of 6 of us of about 30 said "Okay if you want to do this kind of stuff, we'd like to get out of our contract and resign our duties with the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation." We wrote a thing to that effect and I think about 25 out of 30 guys signed this thing and handed it to Chennault and now all of a sudden he's about to lose half of his air force and he called another meeting and said "I won't accept this" and we kind of laughed and said "We didn't expect you to" and the next thing we knew was the whole thing was pretty well settled and Chennault got the message. He went back to Stillwell and Chiang Kai-shek and said "Don't ask me to send my guys on some stupid thing like that." And I think they got the message and we were never asked to do that again and the whole thing blew over. It didn't amount to much. �FRANK BORING: Just to finish up that whole thing, there was an incident where Chennault said something about a white feather that got you pretty steamed. What was that? R.T. SMITH: Yeah that got me steamed. Well it was during that meeting and he was talking about - now I hadn't been scheduled to go on this particular mission that was scheduled to escort these Blenheim bombers to Chiang Mai, but when the guys objected to that and then Chennault came in at that meeting and said "Well if you guys want to show the white feather, by God, I'll accept your resignations." That really bugged me and I got up and shot off my two bits worth and said "General Chennault, I don't know how in the hell you can accuse anybody in this outfit of showing the white feather. I think we've already demonstrated the fact that we're not cowards," which is what white feather means, and I said "I think you owe us all an apology" or words to that effect. And by God, if he didn't turn around and apologize. He said "That's not what I meant really and blah, blah, blah" So we got over that little thing but that was kind of a bone of contention with some of us and was just one of the things that happened. FRANK BORING: Could you describe for us the incident - the Salween Bridge, which was May 7th? R.T. SMITH: Well, I don't know too much about that. I think on one or two of those occasions over the Salween, I was flying in the top cover thing and the other guys, Tex Hill and his gang, were doing the dive bombing and the strafing down right around the bridge and on the Burma Road. I'm flying up there at 12000 feet looking for enemy Jap fighters and was not involved in that. So I can't speak too well of that. FRANK BORING: We had talked earlier about an incident where you were chasing 3 planes. You ended up getting the tail one and the other two kept flying. Could you describe that again for us? �R.T. SMITH: Well that again was out of Loiwing. We'd gone up on an alert and the Japanese came in with a whole bunch of fighters and started shooting up the Loiwing area and we went up, played around with them a little bit through the clouds and shot down 3 or 4 in all. But I hadn't done any good and I wound up all by myself out in the middle of nowhere and started heading southeast in the direction that I thought the Jap fighters would be taking when they headed home and sure enough, in the distance I saw 3 specks and I was sure that they were Jap fighters. So I fireballed everything and tried to catch up to them and I stayed down low, wanting to come in underneath them so they wouldn't look around behind them and see me sitting there in the sky. So after about 10 minutes or so I was practically underneath all three of them, particularly the last guy. It's a funny thing, there were two guys flying together very close to each other in formation and then the third guy was about 200 yards behind the two in front and I was right underneath this last guy, maybe 1000 feet below him, so by trading speed for altitude I was able to pull right up behind him and park right on his tail, maybe 100 yards behind him, and opened up with everything. He pulled up very sharply and then peeled off and headed straight down and I expected him to blow up when I first hit him or catch fire, and he didn't. So when he pulled up and headed down that way, I did the same thing. I'm shooting at him all the way down and he's heading right straight for the ground, I'm shooting all this time and thinking my God why doesn't he burn? By this time I had to pull out myself and he went right straight into the ground and I pulled out and headed back toward the southeast and I look in the distance and there's these two guys still going straight and level right heading for home, never knew what happened to this guy behind them. I kept kicking myself, because I think the guy that I shot in the first place, I think he was dead in the first instant and I could have slid over behind the other two and picked them both off in the space of 15 seconds if I had known that. But I didn't and meanwhile the other two guys they just kept merrily going on their way. �FRANK BORING: What I'd like to do now is just give you some names of various people that you knew back then - just any comments that you have. Some of them are very well known, some of them aren't that well known, but for example we'll start off with - did you have much interaction with either Harvey Greenlaw, Olga Greenlaw? R.T. SMITH: Enough to get to know them quite well I would say. I wasn't close to them but I was exposed to them on many occasions. I got to know them. As a matter of fact I liked old Harvey and Olga too, as far as that goes. I can't say much more than that I guess. FRANK BORING: I guess what I was looking for was - in Harvey's case for example, he was there to help with administration, but so often a lot of guys said they never really saw him administrate anything. I was just wondering what were your impressions of his duties and what did he serve to do with the AVG? R.T. SMITH: I don't know. You'd have to talk to some of the guys that were closer to him in the administrative area than I was. I didn't have anything to do with him in that. I know he spent a lot of time around the office, what he did, hell I don't know. FRANK BORING: What about Olga? She must have had a certain fascination; she was a very attractive woman. R.T. SMITH: She was a very attractive woman and a lot of our guys found her very attractive and I think she found some of our guys quite attractive and I wasn't one of them, unfortunately, I guess. But Olga was a very attractive young lady. FRANK BORING: What about Greg Boyington? Did you know him at all? R.T. SMITH: Yeah I knew him. I didn't know him real well at that time because we were in different squadrons. (break) �FRANK BORING: Okay. We'll just start off with Boyington. R.T. SMITH: Greg Boyington. I didn't know Greg as well as many of our guys did because he and I were in different squadrons and it was only on a couple of occasions, for short periods, that our two squadrons happened to be at the same place at the same time. So I didn't know him too well. I didn't have any trouble with him. I know that he was a trouble maker in many ways according to a lot of people. He never gave me a bad time but that didn't mean anything either. I got to know Greg a lot better after the war was over than I did while it was on. So I'm afraid I can't speak too much about Greg. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned much earlier that you had met Bert Christman with Tex Hill. R.T. SMITH: Well he was on our boat going over to Burma from San Francisco. A hell of a nice guy, very talented, he was an artist of course as I guess everybody knows. He at one time had contributed to Scorchy Smith cartoon comedy kind of thing in the papers. A real nice guy, very quiet, very subdued, but just a real nice guy. Here again, he was in a different squadron. He wound up in the Second Squadron. The only time I really got acquainted with him was on the boat going over. FRANK BORING: General Bissell? R.T. SMITH: Bissell? I don't know too much about him either except that he rubbed everybody the wrong way when he came up to Kunming and started telling everybody if you didn't sign up to go back into the Air Corps and accept commissions over there, we were going to be met by our draft board when we got home and it was that or else. And of course, that was about it all it took from a bunch of us to say well "or else" and I didn't know Bissell any more than that, except to be exposed to him to that degree. As far as I'm concerned he was a sorry specimen of an Air Force officer who was trying - if �he was trying to get us on his side, he sure went about it the wrong way. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert T. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 7 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith discusses the morale missions that his squadron was a part of in Loiwing, in addition to his impressions of Harvey and Olga Greenlaw, Greg Boyington, Bert Christman, and General Bissell. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d60575775971d90014c616d91836cd8a.mp4 13568c0ff2a34d686186b27b25231c24 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3bad029ff0c34299218c6ae870eb50da.pdf e08017c15cdb65fd90a428243ac59570 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert T. Smith Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 8] R.T. SMITH: Well I think when Bissell came to Kunming and explained how we owed it to our country and we had to sign up and go into the military right then and there, if we decided we didn't want to do that, we'd have to figure out how to get home on our own, there wouldn't be any help from the Air Corps or anybody else, we'd be met by our draft boards the minute we got to the States. He was predicting all these wonderful dire things that were gonna happen to us. I think many of us might have accepted induction there at that time if he at least might have said "We'll give you a couple of weeks leave, go to Calcutta, let out some steam, relax and enjoy yourselves a little while and then come back and take your commissions here and carry on." Well we were told that we would not have R&R at all, we could have no leave and took it or left it and by this time most of us were pretty peed off with Mr. Bissell General Bissell and we said the hell with it, we'll go back and take our chances. We knew we could all be re-commissioned in the service branch we had left when we went over there. The minute we got back we knew that they'd take us back and give us a good commission, appropriate rank and whatnot, plus the fact we knew we could have a little time off. So I think that was the big thing for most of us and that's what happened. Most of us came back and I think only 5 of our guys said "Okay we'll take commissions over here." They did and more power to them, but most of said "No we'll go back and take our chances." Almost all of us went back into the service branch we'd been in before we left and were re- �commissioned or whatever and most of us wound up back on a second combat tour someplace in the World War II area before it was over. FRANK BORING: Why did you need time off? R.T. SMITH: Jesus Christ! That shouldn't be necessary to tell anybody. What the hell, after all these months of fighting and flying without any decent food or living accommodations, attention - the whole goddamn - Jesus Christ - do you have to tell somebody why we felt we needed a little time off? Did I tell you? Did you get it? Why anybody would wonder why we needed a little time off. (break) FRANK BORING: Why did the guys need time off? R.T. SMITH: Well I think most of us felt that we would like to have a little time off because we'd been under quite a bit of pressure and hardship for some months now. Combat, living conditions, the whole damn thing. We hadn't had any recreation, no place to go, nothing to do that was fun. We'd been through 6 months of this and we thought well golly at least they could give us a couple of week to go someplace and unwind and get rested up a little bit. And Bissell and I guess the powers that be in the Air Corps said no, hell there's a war going on. As a matter of fact, I think he used that term with Bob Neal at one point and Bob said "Yeah I'm pretty well aware there's been a war going on." But I think Bissell actually used that expression at one time. And I think that was the most asinine thing I ever heard. Well anyway we thought we not only deserved, but needed maybe a little bit of time off to kind of unwind… only when I was getting shot at. I get this question all the time "Did you ever have any second thoughts about going over there in that AVG?" I said "Only when I was getting shot at." �FRANK BORING: Just looking back on it now, how do you look at that period of time in your life? How do you feel about that particular time in your life in terms of your life? R.T. SMITH: I guess it was obviously the most exciting and satisfactory period of my entire life. The fact that I survived made it satisfactory certainly. I was reasonably satisfied I guess, with the job I did, which I felt was something that had to be done. I was glad to be able to contribute a little bit of whatever I did. It was damn sure exciting. It was the adventure I had looked for in spades and as I say it was one of those things I wouldn't take a million dollars for the experience and that adventure and I sure as hell wouldn't do it again for a million dollars. Does that answer your question? FRANK BORING: Give us the answer you give everybody else about any regrets. R.T. SMITH: I'm frequently asked by people that give shows for different places if I had any second thoughts about joining up with the AVG, and getting into all that business and my stock answer is that the only time I had second thoughts about it was when I was getting shot at. I had a lot of second thoughts at those times. FRANK BORING: Okay I have one last question. I see your books, you've read a lot, you know about that period. Give us some evaluation on your part of what the AVG, the Flying Tigers meant to the defense of China and the United States during that time. R.T. SMITH: I guess as I look back on it and realize what happened at that time, I don't believe that any of us at that time realized that what we were doing in Burma and China in those very early days after the United States got into the war with Japan, I don't think many of us realized that we were about the only outfit that was chalking up any victories and having some success against the Japanese. They apparently were running all over everybody all over the Far East and we were about the only ones apparently that were doing any damage to them and it wasn't until some weeks after that, that we �started getting newspaper clippings and magazine clippings and stories and all of a sudden we're the Flying Tigers and the American Volunteer Group is doing this and that. Many of these stories that were written were blown out of proportion, they were exaggerated. But apparently, what we were doing gave a lot of people in the United States some hope that the Japanese were not going to beat the hell out of everybody that happened to be wearing an American uniform, or that were fighting as Americans. I think we were all pleased with this of course, and that meant a lot to us. But I think to the people in the States it was something to kind of get a hold of and say "Hey, we've got some guys over there that are doing pretty well." and of course that made us proud. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v08 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Robert T. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 8 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith describes the meeting with General Bissell in the final days of the AVG and the significance of the Flying Tigers in Chinese and American history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng