819 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb8365859626d9fdf6035ae4b6e390a5.jpg e4dc95d9f67eb52d028a5deaf4b1302d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000580 Title A name given to the resource Ravine on the Allendale campus Description An account of the resource Students walking in the ravines on the Allendale campus. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Ravines Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cd85478c40607a27ddc983a69a25037e.jpg da0d9033c72ef0b70a08b194c5664e21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000581 Title A name given to the resource Ravine on the Allendale campus Description An account of the resource Ravine on the Allendale campus. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Ravines Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c5b9a975c5a7e424e5d92280527249d9.jpg 8451470a61dbf9fec8e89ff8fd517734 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000584 Title A name given to the resource Ravine on the Allendale campus Description An account of the resource Students in the ravines on the Allendale campus. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Ravines Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/342dfbd779cd9658b83b43356c8508be.jpg 1483278fc13275ab31541c162d3e2189 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000585 Title A name given to the resource Ravine on the Allendale campus Description An account of the resource Students in the ravines on the Allendale campus. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Ravines Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fbc4029e4a120734284e22c32e285d4f.jpg 6ac552fd2b7e72ff2185b8caa3ae5f06 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000579 Title A name given to the resource Ravine on the Allendale campus with tree signed by the class of 1970 Description An account of the resource Ravine on the Allendale campus with tree signed by the class of 1970 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Ravines Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/84706ac3a18fe605272cdc90251d09a9.jpg e3e347266edc2883a919a00521c65348 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GVSC_Guide-to-Future-Physical-Development_025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State College Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1961 Title A name given to the resource Ravine View of GVSC Collegiate Center Description An account of the resource Architect's drawing of the interior and exterior of the Collegiate Center of Grand Valley State College, later named Seidman House, as seen in the publication, "Grand Valley State College: A Guide to Future Physical Development," circa 1961. In the drawing, the study lounge and outdoor terrace of the Collegiate Center are featured among the wooded ravines, with people seen inside the windows of the building and outside enjoying the outdoor patio seating. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Johnson & Roy, Inc. (landscape architects & site planners) Meathe-Kessler, Associates, Inc. (architects) Wehrer & Borkin (educational consultants) Williams & Works (utility consultants) Hotaling, Robert B. (area township planner, MSU) Jones, John Paul (head of city planning department, Grand Rapids) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Campus planning Land use Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State College: A Guide to Future Physical Development Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be88e185dae1770d2b71ab2fb277995c.jpg 38da762c0954f5cb19707e8878b94782 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001162 Title A name given to the resource Ravines on Allendale campus Description An account of the resource Ravines on Allendale campus. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives color photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a5cacdb8747317daff8db02205e86bed.jpg 1d15a9f4e82edea58ba9e564a6bf708e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley Ravines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Krohmer, Stanley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Institutional Marketing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Ottawa County (Mich.) Grand River (Mich.) Ravines -- Michigan Land use Nature trails Outdoor recreation Architectural rendering Facilities Maps Photographs Publications Description An account of the resource Collection of digitized photographs, graphic materials, and documents related to the physical environment and history of the ravines on GVSU’s Allendale Campus. The items curated for this collection were digitized from the Grand Valley Ravines Natural Area collection and the Stanley Krohmer Photographs collection, in addition to other materials from University Archives that illustrate the significance of this natural feature to the GVSU campus community. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000500 Title A name given to the resource Ravines on the Allendale campus Description An account of the resource Ravines on Grand Valley's Allendale campus. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59790b1aa52e1d0b2827db0ec7f586fe.m4v 4c2a6561eb3ec2594ca23afb376e4fab https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74f3bd4adb685454306b1ecbd81249bb.pdf 8b2f8c573984d8e2353fb535f6025f7f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran's History Project Vietnam Sam Rawlinson Total Time (00:46:43) Introduction (00:00:22)  Sam Rawlinson was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1948; he grew up in Spartanburg, South Carolina (00:00:50)  He graduated from high school in 1967; after he graduated he decided to join the Army with a buddy of his although they were separated immediately (00:02:49) ◦ Sam did his basic training at Ft. Bragg in North Carolina; he completed basic training although he fractured one of his ankles during his time there (00:03:14) ◦ During high school, Sam went to cadet school on Tuesdays and Thursdays which helped him deal with the discipline during Basic Training (00:05:45) ▪ He was told he was going to be a mechanic after he took the ASVAB; Sam says he loved that type of stuff and was fine with it (00:07:46) ▪ Sam went to Ft. Dix in New Jersey for advanced infantry training (00:08:15)  He mentions he was trained to fix anything on military jeeps from bumper to bumper, there was no part on a vehicle he wasn't trained on (00:09:30) Vietnam (00:10:23)  After AIT, Sam got orders to be sent to Vietnam; He and his wife got married August 31st, 1968 and was in Vietnam by October (00:10:57)  He traveled from New Jersey to California to Vietnam; he mentions he had one of the best flights while flying into Vietnam (00:11:59) ◦ They landed at Cam Ranh Bay; he says that you wouldn't think you were landing in a war zone- he says this feeling last only four hours (00:13:08) ◦ Sam was part of the 131st Quartermaster company in Qui Nhon; he describes Qui Nhon as a garrison area with barracks, motor pool, battalions (00:14:59) ▪ Sam estimates that they had around 60-80 people in his company (00:16:09) ▪ One of his jobs was as a recovery specialist- he would have to go and bring broken down vehicles back to their base; these trips took place at all times from six in the morning to ten at night (00:18:22) ▪ He never had to go out alone on these missions has he had a few support vehicles on his side (00:20:16)  Sam estimates that he went on about 100 recovery runs in a seven month period (00:21:31)  He received a military R&R (rest and recuperation) with his wife for his honeymoon in Hawaii (00:22:37) ◦ Sam says he never encountered any problems with racism in his 20 years with the military (00:24:35) Back Home & Out Again (00:25:48)  Sam was sent back to Ft. Meade in Maryland and spent a few years there (00:25:58)  He eventually became in charge of a 64 Charlie unit which included ammo pick up, transporting �rations and ammo as well (00:29:32) ◦ Sam worked at Ft. Hood in Texas for three years; after that he was sent to Germany for two years (00:30:24) ◦ He estimates that he spent about eight months in the field while he was over in Germany (00:33:16) ◦ Sam got an opportunity to travel while he was there as well (00:34:14) ▪ After Germany he went back to Ft. Meade; he worked on a transportation motor pool (00:37:53) ▪ He worked on the transportation motor pool for seven years (00:40:30) ▪ Sam had to maintain a top secret clearance in order to work on that job; after that he went to Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri (00:42:16)  After achieving a rank of E7, he became an instructor for AIT; he performed this job until he retired from the military in 1988 (00:43:39)  Six months after he retired from the military he got a job in the transportation business as government civilian employee; he did this til 1994 (00:44:38)  He retired from the work force in 2008 (00:45:15) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RawlinsonS1689V Title A name given to the resource Rawlinson, Samuel (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-10 Description An account of the resource Sam Rawlinson was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1948 and grew up in Spartanburg, South Carolina. After graduating from high school in 1967 he decided to join the Army. He did his basic training at Ft. Bragg in North Carolina. He then went to Ft. Dix in New Jersey for AIT as a mechanic. Sam received orders to go to Vietnam by October of 1968. After Vietnam he worked at Ft. Hood in Texas for three years after that he went to Germany for two years. He retired from the military in 1988 and retired from the work force in 2008. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rawlinson, Samuel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87a9f14883a6df347a7b8f8ab0c0405e.mp4 6449932768c9900ddbbdb80157f9e849 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/554deb4a2ff5ae2dc4da7cfee8291ee8.pdf 1599a145ed90350c516a6d2dc2617865 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Frederick Rawsthorne (42:20) Pre Enlistment Born in St Helens, England, June 6, 1922 Family immigrated to America when very young Returned to England with Mother and Father few years later, back to St Helens. Returned to the United States to find Work. Ecorse, Michigan (1929 6:08) Father Was Foundry worker Five to Six sisters of father migrated to same area. (5:03) Depression Father was unemployed for long periods of time during great depression Family was on welfare for long time, father finally found work at Wyandotte Chemicals Moved to Wyandotte, began to attend public schools. Moved several places within city, attended several different schools. Enjoyed English, chemistry didn’t like math. Was in glee club, tried for swimming team, played role in an Operetta. (11:20) War Started working at gas station for 12$ a week for uncle. Attended apprentice school for Tool and Dye Didn’t finish, Joined Marine Corps in 1942. (14:40) Service Boot Camp in San Diego went home on furlough via train. Was stationed in San Diego, and worked as a Machinist in the reclamation Salvage Dept. Year later he was sent to Camp Pendleton, was moved to Hawaii until reassigned for a few weeks. He was reassigned to Guam, and given a mobile machine shop. �2nd Marine Division 2nd Amphibian Truck Company, vehicle repair. Later moved to Saipan, always just behind the big battles. Was still on Saipan when Atomics where dropped on Japan. He was stationed in area of Nagasaki. The surrounding and was devastated. Japanese were polite and did not give the military any problems. (24:12) After War Shipped home April of1946. No serious relationships. He joined the Masons in 1967. Went Back to Ford, finished his apprenticeship. Was laid off, didn’t have job for period of time. Took Postal examination around Christmas 1949 (30:24) Post Office and Masons Started at the bottom level, eventually achieved Post master Status by appointment. He retained position for 20 years since JFK’s presidency. Became master of Lodge in of Trenton, MI ‘77 They initiated 2-4 candidates a week. (38:20) Family Met wife in Trenton in ‘46 Had Boy and a Girl Daughter Beth is a school teacher in River View Son is a Doctor. They paid for their children’s first four years. (42:20) Reflections on Life Service had little impact on his life. Did not join any Veterans organizations �Masonry helped him a great deal. Wife developed Alzheimer’s Ended up in nursing home in 2005.    � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RawsthorneF Title A name given to the resource Rawsthorne, Frederick (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rawsthorne, Frederick Description An account of the resource Frederick Rawsthorne was born in St. Helena, England, but migrated to the United States at an early age with his family. He returned to England with his family, then ventured back to the United States, with his family yet again. His family struggled to support itself during the Great Depression. Frederick found work, and then became a machinist's apprentice at Ford. During his apprenticeship, he joined the Marine Corps and was stationed in noncombat zones throughout the Pacific, eventually Japan. After WWII he became a full time machinist. He was laid off in 1949 and went to work at the post office in Trenton, MI. Eventually he rose to high status as postmaster of his town and master of his Masons' lodge. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-08-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/11d86bf697ee9b10cbb39eca9ce3b4aa.mp3 fa0b015dd42050ada7f3719ff193d2c7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/00fe63d886dbd6445b18df84625c8bb9.pdf ab032b9d4012a54a2aa4edb7e2883c4a PDF Text Text Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 1 Ted Reyda: It is October 2nd, 2018 and I’m at, I’m Ted Reyda. That’s R E Y D A here at the old school house in Douglas, Michigan. Conducting an interview, an oral interview owner with a history of Ray Diffendorfer Ray Diffenderffer: Diffenderffer TR: Well, I’m sorry. RD: That’s okay. TR: Ray, if you could tell us the history of when and why and, uh you or your family became a part of West Michigan? And could you spell the name? RD: Sure, D I F F E N D E R F F E R. Diffenderffer. Well I was born in October of ‘43. So I’m just a few days away from being seventy five and my grandparents, John and Helen Diffenderffer used to camp up near Mount Baldhead. And when they found out that they were opening the land, and dividing them up into lots, they were the first group to buy a lot. And there were other people, George Wakefield, Rob Pilkington, Fred Kasperik, um let’s see uh, Chester Giller. Uh, several people who had camped there wanted to come up here on a permanent basis. And uh, so they did that and I can’t give you the exact date but it like um, about 1920. TR: [Inaudible] RD: So, um, I fell in love with the beach, with Mount Baldhead, with the Kalamazoo River. TR: They brought camping? RD: No I, I want camping. They, they bought the… TR: Okay. RD: They built the cottage as I say, in about the twenties. But I uh… TR: Where was the address? Do you know? RD: 840 Park Street, and um it's still in the family, my cousin's son bought it because the family was growing too big and everybody wants either June, July or August, and so um, we're very glad that he did that. So, um I would come up here in the summer, with uh, my parents and um our family. I have a sister who is older, a sister who is younger and a brother who’s younger. Um, and my grandmother was widowed and so, she loved being up here, and… TR: From where, Chicago? RD: From Chicago. And, she, uh obviously, there was no one to take care of her, and when I was 12 my Dad and my uncle asked me if I would take care of my grandmother and to me that was died and gone to heaven. I said sure, I would and uh, so I came up here and I would spend 6, 8 weeks um, watching her. But I also had a lot of time, on my own. And so, um, I be running up Mount Baldhead, running down, jumping in the water, going through all the backwoods and Ox-Bow and what is now Fishtown, and other places, and uh, I just love the beach. There was no, uh, there's no other place in world... �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 2 TR: Yes. RD: It’s just so great and um, at that time there were no fees to get in. The reason it’s called the oval, because it was an oval parking lot um, and uh, I don't even think there were concession stands up there at that time. And uh, there was just a big sign ‘Saugatuck’, and you drove in, and you parked. A lot of people just walked in from coming over from the ferry, and um, then just walked up the uh, road to the beach. Um, a couple of things that I uh, remember is that I worked on the ferry when it was a flat bottom boat. I was about fourteen, and uh, I can't remember the guy who uh, was also rowing the boat but he want to, and he was a little older, probably 16 or 17, and he said listen why don’t you take it for a couple days here or a half of this day, and I'm rowing this flat bottom boat with… TR: Okay, so it wasn’t the chain ferry? RD: Oh, no TR: It was a flat bottom boat. [00:04:59] TR: Chain ferry wasn't working then? RD: I don’t know if it was even uh, well it goes back over 100 years. But either somebody… TR: Wasn’t operating it? RD: No, it wasn’t operational at that time. So, uh, I would row the flat bottom boat and there was a store, right over there, they just called it the ferry store. TR: Yep. RD: You’d get bread and milk, and uh you know sometimes, and um, it cost a dime, to cross you know. Uh, so would row across and then go back and forth and it was just a great thing and it helped me build muscles and things like that. So, so I fully enjoyed that and um, my uh, so we didn't have a car up here but we relied the neighbors, and they were very helpful to bring my grandmother and me to church on Sunday and that was the old Saint Peter’s in Douglas, it was not the new one out on Blue Star Highway. There was a Father Nugent there and uh, I can't who else uh, but during that time, I met May Francis Heath, the white haired queen of Saugatuck. TR: The Grande Dame? RD: Oh, the Grande Dame, she, she radiated and she and my grandmother were uh, were very good friends. And, uh, she did things with the garden club and she did the things, at that time she was instrumental in the library which used to be right across from Blandshires at that time. TR: Yep. RD: And then uh, uh the post office which is now Jim Brandy’s art gallery, there’s a guy there who was Post Master, Val Smith. He called me lucky because was um, I was able to play bingo at the VFW Hall right behind parishes or what is now Alexanders drug store. And I won 3 or 4 games. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 3 TR: Whoa! RD: I would win ten dollars or something like that. TR: That’s a lot of money! RD: Yeah! So he was reading the numbers out and so when I’d go in to ask for the mail, um, he’d call me lucky and you know, the mail was always delivered to uh, just Saugatuck Michigan. No zip codes, no addresses and it was just general delivery. And um, so… TR: They didn’t have home delivery? Everybody had to go to the post office, I would imagine. RD: Yeah, I think so. I don't recall any delivery. And um, going into town which is so different today, uh East of the Sun right on the corner there, that was the Log Cabin Tavern. TR: Uh huh. RD: And then um, course the big pavilion and you walk on down, and then there was the Hollyhock House was a restaurant that specialized in breakfast and lunch and um, of course it was the hotel. Hotel Butler was still at that and then to top off of that, just made it a restaurant. And uh, those were just, you could walk around town and because it was so small, um, people knew you and uh, because we didn't have a car, I would walk from the cottage uh, around the uh, the Kalamazoo River, over the bridge. But I’ve never really walked it, people would pick me up. TR: Wow. RD: It was nice. Very few times that I’d complete the walk you know and um [inaudible] Couple other memories that I have, of course when they built the radar station in ’57 and um… TR: This is the subject of our show for the last two weeks RD: Okay. Well um, there was this panic because of the, uh, Russians were going to come right over, down, down Lake Michigan and people were very uh, curious why, we you know I mean, are we supposed to be wearing, uh gas masks? Or, you know, those kinds of things, and, the stairs before they built the place. They were just all rotted out. TR: Oh, really. RD: It was probably safer to walk up the sand, then it was, because they were all rotted out. So we [cough] we did that, our, you know, I’d climb up the sand, they had a special tractor that was bringing equipment there. I mean there was a lot of uh, electronic stuff and then they put that tower up there, then they put the dome on it, and uh, you know people were just, ‘What’s happening? What's happening?’ You know, it was the height of the cold war and um, those kind of things. So… [00:10:18] TR: You don't know anybody that, they also had uh, local people from what I understand, go up there and do observation things. So, I don't know if you were ever… �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 4 RD: No, I did not know that. Um, but uh, it was a busy activity. TR: Oh, I would imagine. RD: Yeah, there were a, a lot of, and they wanted to get that thing done because you how know the winters are. TR: Sure. RD: So, uh they did that and part of the deal was that they built another set of stairs. It was either the Army Corps of Engineer. TR: Most likely. RD: So those are, you know early memories. Uh, downtown was something else, it was where Kilwins is there was, um, Flints, um, uh, it was for an all-purpose general store they sold, um, well everything. Then there was Funks where you’d get the newspaper. TR: Yes. RD: And then of course the post office and then the drug store was known as Parish’s at that time and you can see the… TR: Yeah, the name. RD: And on the post office you see the name Heath. And, right across from the post office, no from the, um, Parish’s drug store, there was a Fruit Growers Bank. TR: Yes. Which is gone. RD: Which is gone now, and now it’s a garden. I don't know who donated the money for that. TR: UH, I’ve heard the name, but I don’t know it right now. RD: And, then there's a bank right behind it now, butts up to the Sandbar. TR: Yeah, was, in your days was the Inner Urban working? RD: No, the Inner Urban was not working. Um, there’s a lot of pictures of the Inner Urban right near the pavilion there and uh, and then it went out to um, was it Macatawa? TR: Yes. RD: Yeah, okay. TR: There was a connection to go to uh, Grand Rapids. RD: Yeah, and uh, and of course the uh, the pavilion. The pavilion was the… TR: Did you ever get to go in? �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 5 RD: Did I go in? Yes, I went to… TR: And the bar below? RD: Well, if you want to talk about the Dock, um, and uh, I can say this is as a joke, but you had to be at least seventeen to get a drink. TR: Yep. RD: You know, and I wasn't even seventeen but they, they knew you got a beer or two. And I can't remember how much it cost, maybe a quarter for a bottle of beer. Um. And then uh, you could walk out on the dock and there was a bunch of graffiti, but it was just you know, gang signs. It was just, this boat, and you’ve seen those pictures? TR: Yes. RD: And then um, there was the, the Owl which was this big boat that came in. There were some others, but the thing that I remember about walking out, on the dock there, is that at the height of the season there 7 and 8 boats all lined up, tied up. TR: Rafted. RD: Out there, and then of course you bring a little boat to bring the people out there. Lots of beautiful women. And uh, it was just, you, you came down, you had to walk by the pavilion. Just had to do it. TR: It was the season. RD: Yeah. TR: Epicenter. The, did you ever get on any of the boats? RD: Yes it did. [Laughs] TR: Oh. RD: Well some of them you’d be backed up and of course, you know because they wanted to avoid the um, waves if you had the bow of the boat there. And I got out to some of the uh, boats that were out in Lake Kalamazoo. And um, it, I mean, there were some wild parties there. TR: Oh, I [Laughs]… RD: But it was, it really was controlled for some uh, reason. So, um I want to talk about the control on the thing is that um, on the big weekends and we're talking um, Memorial Day… TR: Labor Day… RD: Fourth of July and Labor Day. Because so many people came up into town, motorcycles. Um, the police, and I just want to get this straightened out, could block, off the town, with three, um, patrol cars. [00:15:03] �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 6 TR: Ah-ha RD: Coming in. TR: Three main routes. RD: Yeah, well I think it was off of North Street, uh, and then, um… TR: Old Allegan? RD: Yeah, Old Allegan, and then, Old Allegan would come in and where the sign was. TR: Yeah RD: And then um… TR: So they actually did at times block off traffic? RD: Oh! Uh [Inaudible] yeah, There were so many people, there was gridlock. TR: Yeah. RD: And um… TR: We're talking about 60’s? RD: Yeah well, yes. In the sixties, early sixties and I’d even say late, you know, 59, 60, but whatever. Uh, and they had, I think it was Lyle Jones was the uh… TR: Jones, yes. RD: And there was another guy. TR: Police officer. RD: Yeah, yeah. And uh, they had help from Douglas and they had help from uh, um. TR: Yeah because our two police departments were separate. RD: That’s correct, yes and uh you know you see some of those pictures of those guys and they look like Andy Griffith, you know? It just is, yeah and um, so for some reason they were, there were no riots. You know there are couple of people, you know, some drunks were hauled off to Allegan uh, but um, I don't recall, first of all I was never involved in any kind of a fight but, um, there was just a lot of drinking. TR: Oh, I would imagine. A lot of pictures of all the bottles. RD: So uh, a couple uh, other places Terra was the restaurant it was owned by uh, Charlie Koning. And I think his brother the um, hardware store, that Wilkins had? You know? TR: Yeah. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda RD: And then they had the ladder that went across remember that? To, to get up on the top. TR: No, I don’t remember that. RD: And then they used to use sell nails by the pound, you know? TR: Yeah. RD: They had this one weighted, and then it was like a dumb waiter in the back. TR: Oh, yes. Yes. RD: I know I was down stairs but I have no idea what they had downstairs, they just had a whole bunch of, uh… TR: Yeah. RD: Whatever. And then um, there was a Holiday Hill. Which was right behind the Beach House and Harding’s, do you remember Harding’s? It used to be down um, right near where the uh, Root Beer Barrel originally was. TR: Did you happen to know Christa Wise? Her name wasn’t Wise then, because they owned the Holiday… RD: It was… TR: Yeah RD: Masters. TR: Yes, exactly. She, she talks a lot about it, and the burning? Do you remember the house burning? RD: Oh yeah, and um, I met Al Masters, uh, not formally but yeah and uh she married Wise of course, and uh, she did exceptionally well uh, the high school or in the school with her artistry and her… TR: Oh yes, we had a wonderful interview. I interviewed her. RD: Oh yeah, and um there were a lot of people do not want her to retire. TR: Oh absolutely. RD: And she just said well we, we need groom with people. Which I very think it’s good. TR: That’s the story of all our lives. I was just curious, if we kept going south into Douglas, uh Tower Marine. RD: Oh yeah. TR: The, the tower. I think I remember the tower. 7 �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda RD: Well there was the, well the water tower’s right where the Root Beer Barrel is right now. TR: Yeah. RD: And you could see that from Blue Star Highway coming up. TR: But I thought that there was just a tower that, I don’t know, a look-out type thing? Because that’s why they call it Tower Marine. I've seen pictures of it. RD: You know I… TR: But there was a big and its still, no it was torn down, there was a big like Quonset hut. RD: Yeah. TR: Strange building and there was talks about very ill proved things going on there, you can rent a room, uh. RD: You’re probably right. I don’t know all of… TR: [Inaudible] RD: Yeah, I didn't experience this. Well you know you can uh, talk about, um, the difference between Saugatuck, Douglas, and uh Holland. Holland thought Saugatuck was known as Sodom and Gomorrah. TR: Absolutely. RD: I mean it was just, uh, surprising how much of the Dutch would come down to Saugatuck. TR: Especially on Sunday. RD: On Sunday! Yeah right, after twelve, after twelve o'clock. What is now the uh, um, exit 41 the, what’s that gas station there that has all of the, is that Dunes View or something like that? TR: Yes. RD: Yeah, okay. Ah, but there was a lot going on there. Um, so for me at a very formative age uh. [00:20:08] TR: You didn't go to any concert, or jazz or the rock concerts? RD: They had some uh, right, right near… TR: That area. RD: Yeah, right across from Billy’s boat house [inaudible] and uh, after the Pavilion burned down there was supposed to be a big jazz festival going out there. TR: Oh they did have one? 8 �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 9 RD: Yeah, and I was not here. TR: Yeah. RD: [inaudible] before that actual jazz festival they used to have you know, Venetian night with the uh, arts and craft show and then the parade going up and down the uh, river and uh, you know those were great times. You know, you were just seeing people having just, enjoying the place and it was a lot less expensive than it is now. TR: Exactly. So yeah, what period, you went back obviously in the winter to be educated and graduate. RD: Yeah. TR: But you kept coming back summers after that. What point did your grandmother die? RD: She died in 64. TR: Okay. RD: And then, um, I was teaching school. TR: So you got a degree so you could teach? RD: Yeah, so I was teaching school, and then uh… TR: In Chicago area? RD: Uh, yes. Uh, Saint Joseph High School in West Chester. You know, just twenty-five dollars out of Chicago, so. Um, but I always said that I wanted to come back to uh, Saugatuck Douglas area. TR: Your family obviously still owned the cottage? RD: Yep, and I come up there. But as the family grew… TR: Yes. RD: …and everybody wanted…. TR: What date [inaudible] RD: You know, well you had last year, you had you know Fourth of July so this year, you know and on and you know, and then we had deals keeping the kids out after Labor Day because of school, that we’d leave and of course the traffic going back… TR: Oh yes [inaudible] RD: The skyway and things like that. Um, so uh, if I can fast forward a little here, um, let's see here. Well I made the decision that I was going to end up here. TR: Ah! �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 10 RD: That was, that was, that was that was known now. TR: You were graduated college and were teaching and you made that decision. RD: Oh yeah, yeah, and then so then I, so that’s like about 1970, 72, 73, this is, this is where I wanted to end up and you know I didn't have a job or anything like that. So I still had to be in the Chicago area but I kept on thinking and coming up, opening the cottage in early, early April or early May and then closing it in at the very last time in October or early November and uh, I even came up in the winter time. Couldn’t stay at the cottage because we drained the water. TR: Yeah. RD: Well we stayed at Timber Line Hotel and there were a couple others. So uh… TR: We, so you were married at that time? RD: Yes, I was married at that time uh, my wife and I are divorced in 90. So I wanted to figure out how I was going to get out here, so I had to figure out finances and all those things, so by 1996 my mother is getting old and I had promised her, now my dad died in 1970. So I promised her she would never end up in a nursing home. So I decided to buy Joe Borscht’s house in, right next to Naught Marine and then I trained, licensed that has an assisted living home for adults, and it was license for six people. And my mother was one of those and there were several other people, and I was right there on Wades Bayou, beautiful view. TR: Is that the one with a swimming pool or across the road? RD: No, if if you go down right where the kayaks now are being, um. TR: Yeah. Oh! Okay, there, alright. RD: And uh, her bedroom looked out on the water and she loved it and so she was there from 97 to October of 2006 she passed away, 2000, 2000 she passed away and then uh, there were other people there and uh, by 2003 um, I just, was burned out doing that kind of work. [00:25:06] TR: I bet. RD: I loved it when a great spiritual experience, but it was time to move on and… TR: You were there alone? You had divorced or your family wasn’t? You were there alone? RD: Uh no, I, uh well, my sister and her husband had worked there for a while little. TR: Okay. RD: And uh, then, I met um, Mary Bud in October 2005, I met her at a talk over at uh, Mothers Trust and uh, then we started dating and uh, we got married in uh, 2006 and um, so we now live in Fennville but I had sold the property and um, I started the recycling thing in Fennville and uh, but if you want to focus on Saugatuck �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 11 TR: No, that’s, that’s why they’re. You now live sort of at the edge of the Fennville winery so that can be. RD: Oh yeah we live right behind, well you know. TR: Yeah. RD: Right behind uh, Fenn Valley and then there’s Virtue Farm and then there’s going to be two more right down the [laughing, inaudible] TR: That’s within the bailiwick of our Saugatuck Douglas… RD: Oh yeah, it’s um, there’s, it’s very fertile for grapes and uh, apples, and you got Cranes down there doing the hard cider, and uh, there's just a lot of, um, entrepreneurs around the idea of wine. TR: Yeah. RD: Or hard cider. Um, let me just take a look, look here um, couple other things, the Lloyd J Harris Pie factory? TR: Yeah? RD: That is now the Chicago, the Saugatuck Center for the Arts, and um, he was very successful, uh, in, in that. Um, Frank Dennison property which is… TR: Did you get to know that? RD: I saw him. I was out there, at where Skip Dennison’s property is. TR: Yep. RD: We would go through the old uh, camp trail roads and stuff like that. TR: Yep. RD: I don’t even know the names of the, those roads or stuff like that but, uh… TR: It was the Dugout Road, yeah. [Inaudible] unofficial name. RD: And if you, you know moved over at foot TR: Yeah RD: You’re going to go down in to the Kalamazoo River. Grace Capaletti’s place was there. TR: Yes. RD: Couple others I think. TR: Right, our right friends had that old um, Kalamazoo block house. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 12 RD: Oh yeah? TR: I tried to buy it, banks wouldn’t loan me money. But uh, yes did you ever, were you able to, uh, hike all the way on the North side? Maybe that was out of your bailiwick? RD: Uh, yeah I would, I can’t remember the name of the camp ground, Pine? TR: Yeah. Pine Creek, RD: Pine Creek. Yeah I’ve walked all the way with a couple of my daughters we would walk all the way out to the, North? TR: Beach? RD: Part of the channel, you know, so. TR: I did too and that’s why I would go past, they were building the boats. RD: Oh yeah. TR: But then they, they fenced it in, and they wanted you not to go past. RD: That's right, yeah, but there were some very expensive boats… TR: Yes. RD: That were built there, and a couple of movie stars had… TR: I knew some of the people that are doing some of the interiors. RD: Yeah. TR: Materials. RD: Oh yeah, it was, yeah, and because the boats were made of fiberglass and they were very volatile and you had a lot of uh, chemicals around and that's, you know, that was a disaster, when it burnt down you know. That was uh, we had gone out there in a canoe to see the wreckage and stuff like that, so um, yeah that was uh, a uh, big thing. Of course Frank Dennison and uh, RJ Peterson were good friends but they fought a lot, they were good friends and fought a lot. TR: They always, always, yes. I used to cross country ski through that area. The, did you ever own a boat? RD: Not a big boat. TR: No. RD: Just a… TR: Roundabout. Yeah �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 13 RD: Just a 15 horse um, 17ft fishing boat and stuff like that, and that was a lot of fun. TR: Sure. RD: Just going up and down the Kalamazoo River and uh… TR: Were you a fisherman or anything like that? RD: Oh, I fished a little but not that. When I was younger I caddied on the West shore Golf, uh, and uh, I knew uh, Carl Wicks and his son Paul and um, we, we caddied. [00:30:04] TR: Yes. RD: A couple other guys, I can't remember their names. Um, people come up from Chicago, they needed a caddy and, I think they had a couple golf carts there but not uh, most them had the, the ones that you pushed. TR: Oh, yes. Yeah, get a little bit more exercise. RD: Yeah, so um, but it was, it was it was always fun, and uh, I remember they were, at one time, now this is just a rumor but, you know. They were going to make it an exclusive 9 hole golf course and then with just a couple of key properties around there. TR: Yeah. RD: And then there was a guy by the name of Mcveigh, Bill Mcveigh, and he was in real estate and stuff like that and he was in uh, he has since passed away, and he had talked to Carl and you know, just batted around ideas and stuff like that, but um, and now it’s no longer a golf course. TR: Nope, and it became the houses. RD: Yeah, and um, I don't know what they're going to do with what was the main part of, you, all the hill and stuff like that. TR: Yeah, well there are houses being built, uh, on some of those peninsulas but nothing in the lower area that would flood, or. RD: Well you’d have to get roads, um, let me see what else I’ve got here. [Pause] The uh, the attitude I want to fully convey is, I just didn’t want to live anywhere else. TR: I know. RD: I, I, I don’t know how else to explain that and I love the upper peninsula, we’re going there in a week, uh, we’ve walked the bridge, we’ve been to Lake Superior, and it’s beautiful, um but there is just something about this area. The artists, the sense of generosity, the sense of uh, fundraising a particular cause and, and, you know, if somebody has cancer, somebody needs this, and you know boom, there's a cookout, there a Church’s get together, you know I… �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 14 TR: And that’s one of the questions there, how has it changed good, for the good, for the bad? But you’re sort of implying some things there, yeah. RD: Well… TR: That quality it's still there that you just described… RD: Yeah, it's uh first of all, it's, it’s a lot more expensive. TR: Yes, but everywhere almost? RD: That’s right. No, no, and yeah that’s right, that’s right. TR: But not quite. RD: Yeah. When I see cottages that are, uh, you know somebody would buy the land of the cottage, and knock the cottage down and built something that, in my mind just didn’t fit in there, and uh, so that was a uh, you know that part I wish didn’t change but, you know as you get older you have nostalgia. TR: As we said the Native Americans that were here, when Butler came probably said the same thing. Hey it’s not the same. They don’t build like we do. RD: That’s right, and he ended up right on the mouth of the river, and he got down here and where the pavilion is and of course I don’t, you know remember everything like the Wildcat Bank or Singapore, or… TR: No. Age wise, because you’re the identical same age to me. RD: Yeah, well some of the things when they say, its Fishtown. Well is it over here, or is it over here, wait a minute I thought it was, you know and then if you did certain real gaping down there, which I don’t think you can do now, you would probably find piling and stuff like that and… TR: It amazed me how fast that they did the channel at the turn of that century, how fast the, uh, channel filled up. RD: That’s right. TR: It became a lake, I mean that’s just amazing, with the prevailing westerlies with the sand you know? RD: One of the things that uh, um, amazed me is when I went to somebody on the Tourism Bureau and just uh, you know, I knew the reason that Oxbow was the way it was, the channel used to come in here and the pilings and I said, do you know why they call it an Ox bow? And I was just, you know, and the person said no and well it was the Ox bow bend in the river, and if you go there where Oxbow is, now the Art Colony, um, that’s a beautiful area and the sun coming over and stuff like that, the sunsets. But there’s still the pilings there. TR: Sure. RD: And, um, because of the sand and the wind and like that, it’s not a very deep uh… TR: No. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 15 [00:35:00] RD: Lagoon? Or if you want to call it that, and then as you go north there, there's that big sand pile right where they dock a lot of boats there. TR: That’s the basin. RD: Yeah, and uh, and I know RJ Peterson keeps on talking about we got to keep on dredging that, uh, river because of all the damns starting again at the other part of the Kalamazoo River and the silt and stuff like that. TR: Yeah, well a lot of it if from the farming. RD: Yeah. TR: Communities that… RD: That’s right. TR: You know they don’t practice things and it, the erosion. RD: That’s correct. TR: And the chemicals that can come with it. RD: That’s right. TR: But, it [long pause] physically I think we should describing the geography of the area so interesting. I can't imagine not being pleasurable forever and ever. RD: My wife and I have made contributions to the group trying to save, you know, where Padnos and… TR: Yes. RD: Others, and were very glad, and we’ve we, we knew Patty Birkholz. TR: Yeah RD: She was very instrumental on the south side. TR: Sure. RD: To get that. But once you build homes there, it is going to change the thing no matter what. I mean, pollution… TR: And, and they uh Presbyterian Camp is now a gated community. RD: That’s right. TR: They will be gated communities, that’s… �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 16 RD: That’s exactly right. And, and how do you, you know, you know we have certain freedoms but somethings need to be preserved. Some things are sacred land, Native American. TR: Sure. RD: This is where our ancestors are buried, you can’t put the railroad track through [coughs] To the white man said, wait a minute we’re here to put this thing here and we don’t believe in that kind of stuff but the Native Americans said our great great great grandparents are here and so we need to do something about that. Um… TR: And I don’t, I think you’re pointing out that change is inevitable, but controlled change and all that. You know, we always talk about the 1%, that 1% will get what they want and they find this fascinating, and there’s even talk now that they’re going to be buying slips and combining them, because they, Travis Randolph was saying, they want to bring bigger boats in, to dock them. RD: Yeah, that’s right. TR: Will that, will those like you, just that contribute to the area, not only buying things, but will they support the historical society and all these things? RD: You know, change in it is inevitable but that doesn’t mean that its progress. TR: Yeah, yes. RD: You could say you know, were changing this, but that might not be progress. You know, and um… TR: You know coming from big cities I hated when we started doing condos. RD: Yeah. TR: Saying, we’re going to be condo-ed out of, you know we have to some degree. RD: Well I think when you look at that one condo part, um as you’re going north right before the bridge and the 7-11. TR: Yes. RD: That never took off, or… TR: Yeah! Why not? Financing or what. I think it started back up again. RD: Is it? TR: Yeah. They got a sign saying they’ll be selling, because there’s a foundations, but they had a view. These other condos really don’t. RD: That’s right. Terra is now condos. TR: Yes. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 17 RD: And it used to be, well then Overeisel sold, sold out. TR: Yes. RD: To TR: Yes. RD: To the, the place there, and there’s only a certain number of people that get to see a sliver of the Kalamazoo, Lake Kalamazoo and the river. And uh, a lot of those, I don't know how many, are, empty during uh, like from December/January… TR: Sure. RD: To like March, and you know Florida is suffering from from there and like from the. Juniors your room and you know Florida is suffering from over building, and you know…. TR: Yes. RD: Flooding and we ought to learn something about that. TR: Yes, see that was my argument, yeah. RD: How do your, your children and your, your wife, and your second wife’s children feel about the area? RD: Well, it was uh, in selling the cottage to the um… TR: The family. RD: Yeah, the family um, it now that they’re grown, they live all over. D.C., Cincinnati, Dallas, Chicago uh, they do come up and visit us and they go over there but they've even mentioned, it's it's not the same. TR: Uh huh. That being? [00:40:00] RD: Well they used to run up uh, the sand, at uh, Mount Baldy and then run down the other side and go to the beach, just what I did. TR: Yeah, well they can still do that. RD: Yes, you can, uh, I don't think I can, but it was uh, and then there were, you could buy popcorn over at the drug store, for a dime. TR: Yeah. RD: And those days are gone. You know and, and then um, they used to call it the Saugatuck Schlepping and Caulking, you got and ice cream cone… �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 18 TR: Ah. RD: and you, you’d walk in there but there were signs, no food, so you’d look in the window, and whether it be fashion or the whatever it is, [Inaudible] and there was a certain thing, and, and, and everybody did it. You know they’d be walking by… TR: Yep. RD: Now, I don’t think that would go in our house. You know our [laughs] TR: Yeah widow, window shopping. RD: Yeah, window shopping uh… TR: Unfortunately sometimes I see a plate and I have this joke, ill and annoy? Illinois? Ill and annoy because they window shop their air conditioned car. RD: Oh yeah. TR: And I always go around to get to North Butler Street. RD: Oh yeah. TR: But you, you see the few young families that there’s still an appeal the young families. RD: That’s right. TR: From what I understand that happened a lot in our area, you know that maybe you were a motorcycle person or something like that, but you know raised hell but you got married, had children and you remembered this area, and you came back and rented places and maybe bought or built. So, there’s still an appeal. RD: The appeal is, something that I read about, why the Antique Road Show on PBS. TR: Yep. RD: A lot of people watch it. TR: Yes. RD: The remember when. I remember this, I remember the old uh, gas stations and the pumps and uh, I brought um, one of my grandsons to the Gilmore um… TR: Car Museum. RD: Car Museum and you know he, he, we had a picture of pumping gas you know this and he rode around in a 31 Cadillac and stuff. But, there's a lot of people there the day we were there, some people there saying, I remember that and I remember this… TR: Yeah. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 19 RD: And all the various cars. Um, there's this nostalgia that yes, we want change but we don't know how to get that balance to keep change and… TR: Preservation. RD: Preservation, yes, and how do you do that. TR: Hopefully as a society or whatever we call ourselves then, can provide tools that help people, because if we document, and that’s what we’re doing right now, documenting and, and saying well they feel that way, but yeah if you don’t do it, just unfortunately the bottom line people will come in and um, buy, sell, and… RD: That’s right. TR: With little concern for the future. RD: Yeah, I don't know what else to, to do to stop progress, because I don't own the town or anything like that and I'd love to have people look at this, look at the old structures and the fact that they kept this school building and uh, obviously put in better lights, cleaned it up on the inside. Uh, and we saved a lot of the pictures. I don’t know how to get that balance. TR: Yeah, yeah. [Inaudible]. No, if, if you really knew how you could be making money or you could be the chief of something. But, yes. RD: Well people that go to these historic places likes Williamsburg, you know they have this, and you go to, uh, Fort Michilimackinac and you see them shooting the guns and uh, this is how you dressed in there and this is how it was such a strategic place for the French, you know with the Straights and you had the big boats. My wife and I walked the bridge several times, you can see if the suns just right how the straights, um, they’re not that big. TR: Yes. RD: I mean the shore. TR: And all the shipwrecks that we have. RD: That’s right. TR: Exactly. Yeah, I think, it’s sort of a belling that we, we were isolated enough that the railroad didn't come through here, it went through Fennville. Because if the railroad came would be a Holland or, or well Fennville hasn’t grown that much but uh, yeah. [00:45:01] RD: But they don’t have the, they don't stop there anymore. TR: Yeah, no, no. But I, I, like you, because I was designing for Herman Miller and Travis Randolph, they had the renters, you know had a place here, said, you don’t want to buy in Holland, come down here �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 20 and I said wow. I have to be by the water, the said, I can, I can be alone, I can be with people it was perfect. Not, not a lot of traffic except for the summer. RD: Yeah. TR: It, I had the same feelings. Uh, and, and I just hope that whatever we do we will destroy that. That younger people will have that same feeling. And when my relatives come, with their young, you my nieces and nephew, gran niece and nephew they just love it here and the come back every year. RD: When you see, you go down to pier cove and there’s that historical sign, you know. TR: Yeah. RD: They got all the lumber here, and then they supplied the Chicago Fire and then all of a sudden the lumber ran out. Well, you ought to read that certain things are going to run out if you… TR: Yep. RD: If you cut them all down. TR: Yep. RD: Or if you dam them all up, or if you… TR: They planted the fruit trees and they had the frost but they replanted them, things will evolve, who knows. RD: The other things is, and this is, [laughs] you go throughout the winter, and there are four seasons, but winter. TR: It’s just dominant. RD: [Laughing]. When spring happens, you… TR: Poof. RD: You’re just like… TR: Yeah. RD: Oh! We’ve made it. You know, and then you got the asparagus, strawberries… TR: Yep. RD: You got this run of fruit and you know people that are growing these things and now there’s this big movement toward uh, sustainable living and, organic uh food, and grass fed cows and free range chickens and stuff like that. And it’s really happening. TR: Yep. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 21 RD: And, and again, look at the art galleries, look at the, the stuff here and you know, it's great. I love it. TR: I just wonder about what slice of society will still be enjoying this. Are we going to be more towards that one percent? Or, someone always has to be the waiter or the, know construction person, but you know, you wonder how people can have that experience like you did your little cottage and, and that, you know maybe somewhere else, uh, I don't know. But yeah, yeah. So, it's keeping you here, you stay the whole winter? RD: Oh yes. TR: Yeah. RD: Yes, yeah. We, uh we are, we're here all the time. I mean we go short… TR: Yeah. Like we do. RD: Trips, especially. Well we just came back from Pennsylvania. But um, the northern part, we go to a lot of these art and craft shows. TR: Ah. RD: Charlevoix, Traverse City, uh, and they’re very crowded but we know how to, where to, where to go and uh, the UP and uh, we’ve been to Drummond Island, we’ve been to uh, the Legenois, we have Copper Harbor is on our bucket list, we haven’t been there. TR: Ah, I’ve spent some time there yeah. RD: And uh, we uh, some people say, you get a lot of snow there in the winter and we say, yeah we do. TR: Not like Copper Harbor. RD: But them, well what do you do? And its, well I shovel this off, and we hire a guy to clear out our driveway and uh, you know, we know how to drive during winter. We got a four wheel, uh, four wheel drive vehicle and that, that does it. TR: We read, we know I finally try to clean the basement [Laughs] and do all those fixing things. RD: We, we love it, and so. TR: Yeah, yeah I get so tired of airlines and all that uh, hassle and the money that you know, I did when I was younger and had I companies I worked for, I’m just happen to be here. RD: That’s right. TR: And now, you know now we have a choice of so many more stores in Holland. I mean we don't have to go to Grand Rapids or Chicago and the internet can get almost you anything. RD: You got it. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 22 RD: UPS, so. It’s, yeah, it works out. I just hope that the uh, what they, you know the Hayworth plant that something will happen with that, that might provide some jobs or something like that, but still got a pollution factor there with the… RD: Yeah, the tannery was right. TR: Yeah, well no, the metal works. RD: The metal yeah. TR: The cleaning metals and the salt that they used go in the soil, the yeah, I uh, well if you thinking you’ve thought of enough things, uh? RD: Do you have any other questions? TR: No, I, I think that they intention was, was to, you know, basically give you background which you did, and why you’re here, and still here and what, what your impression of what the future might be and I think you did that all, so, yeah. I learned a lot about you too, I didn't know, you sort of told me that connection those little cottage, cottages. You know, after this I’ll write down that address I can go see the cottage. RD: 840. TR: 840. RD: 840 River road, or no, 840 Park. TR: Yeah. RD: And then the names still on there. TR: Ah, I, I might remember that because I thought that was, I said that’s, that sounds familiar. RD: Yeah, and uh, it’s well the, there’s, there’s one, so there’s one, two, three… TR: Is the the parcel big enough that someone could tear it down and build something bigger? RD: My cousin's son, kept the structure and he went out back TR: Ah, so he did add on. RD: Yes, he did, it, it looks the same. TR: Okay. RD: And it was limited, you know? TR: Well yeah, because they were very small. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 23 RD: Oh yeah. Well they were cottages, they, they weren’t thinking uh, condos or they weren’t thinking, yeah. TR: What people think, you know roughing it now is, is, marble or granite tops and all the conveniences, it’s like, hello? RD: But, we did not have a phone in the cottage for a long time. We did not have a microwave, we never had a television. We didn’t want, why are you staying inside? TR: Christa Wise said the same thing. RD: Why do you want to say in the, I mean, get out there! You know? Get down to the beach, get over here. TR: The difference now is these kids are connected by these devices, they have this need to be connected and it’s like, enjoy! Yeah. Hopefully they will. Well I think we’ll. [00:52:56] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-DiffenderfferR-20181002 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diffenderfer, Ray Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-02 Title A name given to the resource Ray Diffenderfer (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Ray Diffenderfer's grandparents were among the first to own land near Mt. Baldhead, where they built a cottage in the early 1920s. In this article, Ray reminisces about spending summers of his youth at the cottage and swimming at the beach in the 1950s and 1960s. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reyda, Ted (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Beaches Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db8462c35ad32452ff7324f39ea86cb6.mp3 62c69cbe0fe79a2ddf83b73ef83dfe14 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/32031d4de500d0428317ac079225cfb1.pdf c87722305ca0dc1b45b4fdcf09667ae9 PDF Text Text Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 1 Eric Gollannek: This is Eric Gollannek and I... Ken Kutzel: …and Ken Kutzel… EG: …and I’m here today with… Ray Foster: Ray Foster. EG: Uh, at the old school house in Douglas, Michigan on July 23rd, uh, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to meet with us today, we’re interested in learning more about your family’s history, in particular experiences of summer. Can you please state your full name and spell it for us? RF: Raymond Edward Foster, R A Y M O N D, E D W A R D, F O S T E R EG: That’s great, alright, so we’ll, we’ll continue our conversation here, you brought in a few things here about your farm, you want to tell us a little bit about where it is and… RF: Well this, this was kind of a family farm, um, my mother, mothers’ parents and uh, her grandparents uh, um, bought eighty acres. They came from Chicago in the late 1800’s and uh, bought eighty acres uh, near the corner of 66th street and uh, 126th and uh, they [pause] they farmed it and uh, [pause] uh, a lot of different things. They had blueberries and raspberries and uh, they had 20 head of cattle and uh, chickens and uh, at different times, different things, uh. Through the years and uh, they raised four daughters, my mother was the oldest and uh, [pause] she spent, she was the last one to leave the farm. The other daughters grew up, we got married and then before World War Two, and then my mother got married after World War Two and uh, so she spent more time on the farm. But as I was growing, when I grew up and [pause] I, I stayed there with my grandparents. They were in good health and uh, help them do things [pause] and uh, but mainly just really enjoyed the place. And uh, it was uh, just a just a beautiful retreat, and uh, a lot of great place to explore and uh, [pause] uh, [long pause] KK: Is the house still standing? RF: The house is still standing, it’s had several owners since then, and uh, but uh, [pause] but it’s been, it’s changed some. Uh, considerably. The house, the outside structure’s pretty much the same but it has a garage added to it, but uh, and uh… KK: I noticed it says here that that’s the Hines homestead? RF: Yes... KK: Is that what it was called? RF: Well yes, my, [stutters] I, I, I didn’t mention that but my, my great grandfather's name was Emo Hines and he came from Chicago and he was not a farmer but he kind of adopted the, the [stutters] hob hobby, but he had just one son, Otto who was my, my uh grandfather and my great grandfather was a German immigrant and uh, [pause] he uh, [pause] along with his son uh, they kind of developed the �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 2 land. They planted fruit trees and grape vineyards and, and uh, and raised cattle, and tilled the soil with a team of horses and uh, um, [pause] it was a [pause] a [pause] a labor of love I think, uh, uh, they uh, it stayed in the family till the 70’s and uh, so ah, let’s see where can I go from there uh, but I, but I, I spent a lot of time there in the 60’s, the 50’s and 60’s and uh, [pause] and uh, [pause] well… KK: How ‘bout, give another...tell us, you, the other day when we spoke with you. You started to tell us a story about one time when you were on the farm and the motorcycles came in... RF: Oh! KK: Would you talk about that please? RF: No, actually that was at my parents’ house… KK: Oh! RF: ...on M89 east of Fennville. KK: Well let’s talk about that anyway! [00:04:39] RF: Okay! Sure! Well it was probably ‘65 ‘66, maybe ‘64 ‘65 ‘66, [pause] I think by ‘67-’68 it kind of fizzled out. But, on a Memorial Day weekend or Fourth of July weekend, uh, you could hear, hear from a long ways away this, this sound of motorcycles coming, and there was long strings of them, and various, [stutters] grou-groups, probably a dozen in a group or so, maybe more, and they came from Detroit, Flint, and uh, [pause] uh, mainly east, on the other, eastern side of the state, but uh, I guess I could describe them as a colorful group. They weren't, they weren't necessarily uh, like uh, social club they were, they more of, of an old [stutters] I I I don’t want to make a comparison to the Hell’s Angels but they were, they were kind of that style. Uh, their, their jackets on the back had, had little titles like uh ‘Disciples from Hell’ or ‘Hell’s Disciples’ or that sort of thing. That theme was very popular, and uh, but when I was able to go to Saugatuck, uh, on those weekends it was incredibly busy, they would actually, unless you could prove you lived there they wouldn’t let you in they would stop at the top of the hill, they wouldn’t let cars down. And, the motorcycles would be rode up the entire like, from Phil’s all the way down to the corner and uh, they um, [pause] they would pretty much take over the town. As, as strange as that might sound, and and the police were, were usually, it wasn’t like today, they were, it was a small police force and they might rent a few, we referred to ‘them as Rent-a-Cops because they were just hired for that special occasion. And uh, I’m, I’m not aware of any major, uh, conflicts that uh, that occurred. There may have been some but I wasn’t really aware of anything, like a, any kind of a small riot or anything like that. I wasn't aware of anything like that but, but as a teenager it was quite a novelty to see that. To be exposed to that, and uh, [pause] so, [pause] um, [pause] well, that was pretty much it, I mean uh, just, just to see it, holiday was over they were gone… KK: Did that happen every weekend? Or… RF: No, no, no. Just on, I only saw it on a holiday weekends, and uh, so, that was uh, kind of a, unique thing. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 3 EG: What were the reactions of your parents, or grandparents? RF: Well you know I… EG: Or neighbors to that? RF: You know, as far as my, the uh, [pause] the [pause] my parents’ generation, I don’t think they uh, I don’t think really could comprehend what was going on. I don’t, [stutters] I, I was never aware that they, uh, it wasn’t something they were happy about, I’m sure, I I know that much but as far as uh, feeling threatened or anything like that or, uh, [pause] they just, they just looked at it as some kind of a temporary thing, a phase I think. I don’t think they thought of it as a, um, you know a… EG: Collapse of civilization… RF: [Laughs] Yeah! Sure, that, yeah. I’m sure they thought of something like that. Yeah…. KK: Although at that time, was the um, was the summer season, here in Saugatuck, I mean was it um, as long as it is now, er, you know? RF: Well, I think, I think I would say it is, um, people started coming up, [pause] um probably before memorial day and, and um, to their cottages and such and uh, they pretty much stayed until after Labor Day, shortly after Labor Day. Yeah, there was good numbers of people. It’s hard to make a comparison between then and now, because things just look at a lot different. They appear a lot different. KK: Why don’t you talk about that? RF: Well, I, I guess I could say that, at that time, it was a very affordable place to go, for, for the average middle class person, and [pause] even though it had a history [pause] from, that I had heard about, you know ‘Well Saugatuck is really one of, a place you want to go because [stutters] they, they, they have bars they stay open all night’ and um there’s that kind of atmosphere but, but as a young person, you, you kind of want to be exposed to a little bit of that. KK: Well sure! All: [Laugh] [00:09:54] RF: Just to, just to find out for yourself and uh, but, that’s, that’s probably the most striking thing, and the development, there’s much more development today. You could, you could see the water when you came in off of, of Blue Start and came into town and you could see the water, uh all the way. There were no condos or anything like that, and uh, uh, [pause] so, [pause] I hesitate using the word quaint, but if you, if you were there in the winter you might call it that, but the summer there was a lot of people so it wasn't really, it was more, it was a tourist town, it was strictly a tourist town. But uh, [pause] uh, the Coral Gables was a really popular place at that time, very popular place. People would be lined up waiting to get in, and uh, and [pause] uh, I do remember some scuffles out front just as a bystander watching some people. Probably some unruly people getting thrown out, and those things kind of stick �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 4 in your head. But, uh, [pause] uh [pause] it was an evolution I guess, you know it just evolved from, you know my parents’ generation, they probably would’ve saw something, even more, uh, more quaint I guess you’d say, more slow paced and um,[pause] uh, but things have, thing have evolved to what they are today and uh, it’s it is, but uh I suppose it’s relative in a way, but it is more, more expensive for the average person to just go anywhere and spend some time in a, a restaurant or a bar. EG: Beyond Coral Gables, were there other places that stood out to you? That you spent time, or… RF: Well… EG: Or stayed away from, or? RF: Well the Butler and Coral Gables were always the biggest two, biggest items, and uh, everything else was just really small. Like uh, there was a place called the Boathouse, and that was down at the end of the street, across Wick’s Park, in that area, and uh, and uh, all the other little places were just um, [pause] were lesser, and then, then I, one thing I remembered too in, in it may have been ‘68 or ‘67, you guys might know, the Blue Tempo came in… KK: Yes let’s talk about that RF: Well, you know, as, as a, as a person growing up at that time, I didn’t even, I didn’t even understand what uh, or fully understand what uh, [pause] um, what a gay, the whole concept of gay people was… EG: Sure… RF: So, uh, but I knew this was a unique place, and I knew it had, but, had I known more, in in hindsight, I might of, might of tried to go there because I know they had great music, and uh, I’m a great uh, admirer of that kind of, uh, music, and a great history for music and uh, but uh, [pause] uh because now, as a 70 year uh, and having lived in the area, or known people in the area for a long time, that whole uh, uh, [pause] uh, shall I say the [pause] the gay scene, is is a, it doesn't, it doesn't even leave an impression on me anymore. KK: It’s become part of the culture. RF: It’s part of the culture, and uh, so, but, but it was always know as a unique place. It was the location was unique and uh, everybody knew that this was a gay bar, and uh, and uh, so, I wish I could tell you I’d been there and experienced it but I, I can’t. A friend of mine was there and I only get bits and pieces from him, but uh, [pause] uh [pause] but uh. EG: What were some of the reactions or things that people, other people’s reactions or things that you’ve heard about? RF: About… EG: [Inaudible] RF: About, concerning that? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 5 EG: Yeah! Ray: Ah, [pause] you know, people uh, were not really very activist type people at that time. Most people, you know, they went about their own business and if something new came along, well they talked about it, but as far as being a [pause] being a objectionable thing or a something that really disturbed people. People just kind of...after a while it just blew by. [00:15:14] KK: [Inaudible] RF: Yeah, and uh, so, the reaction, my impression of the reaction wasn’t, wasn’t anything really big. EG: Just another bar, another club that has good music and we’re probably not going there. That kind of… RF: That kind of reaction. EG: That kind of reaction? RF: That kind of a thing yeah, that’s fair to say. Yeah. KK: You know um, a question I have for you, being a Douglas resident myself, uh, what are your memories of the Douglas side? RF: Well, I occasionally, I would go there with my uh, grandparents occasionally. There was, there was a little grocery store down on the end of the street towards the river, uh, where uh, um [pause] well there was a little novelty store there near Naughtons... KK: Yeah. RF: Near Naughtons store there, that at one time there was a grocery store there… KK: Was that Vansicles? RF: Vansicles, yes! And they would go there occasionally, and uh, [pause] and we would also pick uh, they they raised uh, raspberries so we would pick raspberries and we would bring them into town and right where the park is, where the ballpark is there was a man, a vendor there, [pause] and uh, he would take all we had and uh, he would sell them to the tourists and uh, gosh, just trying to remember his name now, he had a son who was blind [pause] um, [long pause] gah! KK: Well it’s alright, it will come to you when you’re not thinking about it. RF: Right. But anyway it was a, so we did that, we would hang out there for a while but at that time, across the street, the uh, there was uh, a Catholic School there too. So we knew the, we knew about that, and at that time the original Catholic Church wasn’t St. Peter's it was just down the street. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 6 KK: Right. RF: And uh, one little side light to that, I have a, uh, my dad [pause] had an uncle and uh, I [pause] and he was the first baby to be baptized there, and I should’ve brought the name, the baptized name was all the little organizations in town gave him a name and when he went back many years later he was embarrassed because they mentioned him, and brought him, and mentioned him and everything but his baptized name was uh, Peter Paul Benedict, uh, Jacob Ivan, [pause] Clark and uh, and they all gave him a name so, it was, it was an embarrassing thing for him as an adult. But uh, he did happen to be the first baby that was baptized there uh, he was a part of a large family that was also in the area. But [pause] but it was a, it was a, it was a incredibly quiet quaint little town. Just down the street there was a place called the Delicatessen and a man named Red Delky owned it and he had a baker working for him that was a refugee from Austria, a World War Two refugee, and an incredibly talented pastry chef and anybody my age can tell you, that lived in the area that they made the best bread and uh, and uh, uh [pause] sweet rolls and that sort of thing uh, that you could find anywhere. And uh, and uh, down a little bit further there was a little drug store so it was a, really a, had everything. KK: [Inaudible} RF: Just a little town! And uh, I uh, I would also go on Friday night, quite often on Friday night with my grandparents, near the corner of uh, Blue Star and uh, Maple Street, uh going to the north. There was a house on the right hand side, at one time it was a resort, owned by my grandfather's uncle, Fred Hines and [pause] they would pick up people, you would pick up people that came in on the boats and then bring them back to the resort and uh, his wife would uh, do the housekeeping and uh, he was just mainly just took them around town to the beach or wherever they wanted to go and uh, but, they had a little resort there. So but, in later years when I went there with my grandparents, the uh, the next generation down lived there, my, would be a cousin to my grandmother, grandparents, er grandfather and uh, so we would just go there, spend some time there with them, they would uh, talk about old times and that sort of thing, and uh, but uh, it was just [pause] a nice quiet little visit. But uh, I don't know, what else can I tell you? [00:20:46] KK: Do you remember the, uh, the rock festival at all? Were you involved in that, or? RF: I did go to the one at uh, near Goshorn Lake… KK: Okay, that’s Potawatomi Beach, right? RF: Potawatomi Beach, yes. Uh, yes, I did go to that in ‘68, I believe KK: I believe that’s what it was…. RF: I think it was in ‘68, and it was hot and dry and sandy roads and people would, uh, it was [inaudible] it was incredibly crowded and uh, you couldn’t get close to the band stand, it was just uh, again there was, there was that large influx of uh, motorcycle people and they kind of dominated an area there, but uh, so you could hear things from a distance unless you, unless you somehow got there real early and �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 7 worked your way in, but it was kind of a phenomenon I guess because the volume of people, yeah I think I, I think I read where cars were lined up all the way from, from that park all the way to the bridge at the river… KK: I have heard that…. RF: It’s hard to imagine… KK: Yeah EG: Right RF: So, and then they decided they’d never do that again, but uh, the history of those types of things are, is, is great. I mean when it goes back to uh, when they had a pavilion and then it’s the uh, got that racetrack… KK: Right… RF: But uh, I do remember, uh, probably the late 50’s when they had a Jazz Festival, the Saugatuck Jazz Festival, uh, at the racetrack there and uh, Duke Ellington and a few other celebrities were there and my grandparents farm was kind of a, like a mile south of there, on 126th and uh, just about half a mile from the corner of Blue Star and 126th, and with the windows open at night, I remember them introducing Duke Ellington and them mentioning his name, that always stuck in my, stuck with me forever after that. I thought, wow what would’ve been so great to be there… KK: And that sound would carry over because it was all farms… RF: Yes. KK: Yeah. RF: Pretty, quite open at that time. EG: So you could hear? You could hear music and…. RF: I could, yes, yeah, not really well but some, yeah. EG: Yeah. RF: And prior to that it was a stock car track, a little dirt stock car track and there was uh, um, uh, auto racing there. It was quite, for many years, it went on but uh, I never experienced that, I wish I had but uh, [pause] um [pause] KK: Any contact, uh at all, or anything you can share about contact with Oxbow or the people from there? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 8 RF: No, I never really knew about Oxbow until later I, I consider myself an art lover but I, I never really knew about it. I wish that I had known more about it at a younger age but it’s a, it’s a great great thing to have in the area. KK: Yeah, it was more a private club… RF: Way back! KK: And it's interesting that you bring that up because you're not the first person who said ‘We really didn't pay attention to it’. RF: No, I never really knew much about it, till later years, and uh, but uh... EG: Do you remember much of seeing many artists around? Seeing people painting in town, in Douglas or Saugatuck, or? RF: No, I always knew it was an art, artsy community but I didn't spend much time, you know, going from shop to shop, I uh, really at that point in my life, I wasn't really that, I was more, uh, driving your car, go to the beach, and uh that sort of thing, uh, and getting together with people, but uh, the art, [pause] I know it existed but I never, I was never exposed to it. [00:25:16] KK: Then, what was the beach like then? RF: Oh, it was great! Uh, there was, there was of course the Oval Beach, but then, the Douglas, Douglas had a beach, and then there was several beach on down, uh, there were then. I never remembered big crowds there like today. I have seen some photographs of big crowds but uh, but uh, it was a they were, they were fairly well kept up and uh, and uh, it was quite a thing to go the Oval Beach was uh, was really quite a special thing. KK: Were you guys aware at all of the nude beach? Or did that come later? RF: You know, I wasn't aware of that, I heard about it, no I heard about it. I did hear about it as a uh, probably in the late 60’s I heard about it. KK: Okay. RF: But uh, that’s really the end of it there, I, I uh, wasn’t curious about that. KK: Yeah, yeah. Had, had you ever been out on that Denison property with all those dunes? RF: Yes! I have! KK: Yeah that’s kind of, well talk about that a little bit, because that I think has to be seen to be believed. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 9 RF: Well, its, its south of the mouth of the river. I, I did walk that and to the, to the uh, old light house, in that area, and that's great. That was great country to explore and to follow it all the way up to the, to bald head and then back down, it was a great, great experience and very natural area and uh, you could see the old pilings in, in the pine and that little, where the channel was… KK: Yeah, the lagoon, yeah. RF: ...and the lagoon yeah and uh, and then uh, well of course there was the pier you could walk out on that, but [pause] uh, [pause] it was a, you I considered it a great area, beautiful area but I never got to the north side there north side of the channel where the Denison’s property was I never really saw that. Uh… KK: Well it was hard to get out there, always had to take that dug road… RF: Yeah, Dugout road, yeah. I, my mother, in later years uh worked for uh Ken Denison and planted, I think, she and another lady cleaned the boats when it was, when it, when they were in business out there at the end and…. KK: You're talking Broward Marine… RF: Broward Marine, yes, and, and they uh, uh, my mother planted a whole row of daffodils along the bank there and was around long enough to see how nice they looked and uh, and uh, she thought the Denison’s were great people, generous people and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] uh, [pause] only knew, she knew the dad some but knew Ken more uh, but uh, never, I, I don’t know if the big house was built at that time but there was a house there along with the uh, the [pause] marina and the business, but uh, [pause] um, [pause]. The uh, [pause] well going back to the farm there uh, back then all the roads were dirt roads pretty much uh, they hadn’t paved a lot of the roads there and uh, so you uh, that was a [pause] a back in time compared to how it is today. KK: Yeah, where did you go to school? RF: I did go to school in Fennville that's where my family actually lived. KK: So was it the old high school there, or? RF: I did go in the old, to the old high school for a couple years, before it was uh, not used anymore but uh, uh… KK: And what about for a grade school was in Fennville also? RF: Yep, that was also in Fennville, yeah, uh… KK: I'm going to ask you a funny question… RF: ...no, no it’s fine. KK: Did, did you have Mrs. Northrup for any… �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 RF: Yes! Yes I did! [Laughs] KK: [Laughs] Oh, that’s, so, she’s a real good close of mine, and um… RF: Oh my gosh, how old is she? KK: She’s about 93, er um, yep. She has dinner at my house every Monday, in fact she’ll be over tonight… [00:30:03] RF: Really? KK: I’ll have to mention you. RF: She was my third grade teacher. KK: But its, its, she, I was just telling, ah, somebody today uh, we go out with her quite often and no matter where we go, she’s had every person… RF: Oh, no doubt. KK: She taught at, yeah, she taught in Fennville. RF: Yes. KK: Oh that’s kind of wonderful. RF: She was a sweet lady, I, I can tell you that. KK: And it was her family that owned, uh Sunny Shore. RF: Oh, really? KK: On [inaudible] the river road. RF: See I thought, I thought they lived more out on the...south. KK: They lived in Allegan, but it was her husband’s family that went there as kids. RF: Okay, and she did have a son, that's true. Is that true? Yes? KK: Ah, yep, yeah uh [inaudible] Jeff! RF: Okay. 10 �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 11 KK: Her son Jeff, he’s still around. RF: Alright, alright. KK: Yeah. RF: Yeah. KK: It’s a small world! RF: Oh! It’s a lot smaller than you realize if you, if we really, I mean it, when I look at this, or even a newer one I, I know so many of the people on these placards or I’m familiar with them. KK: Well, it’s a small area, really. RF: Yeah, well, for example uh, uh, this farm here this Ed Work farm… KK: Mhm RF: Mrs. Work, Mary Work, she was a teacher in the Saugatuck Douglas area for many years but then she taught in Fennville. She, she uh, her family, her dads family were, were involved in the uh, basket factory. KK: Okay. RF: The name, you probably have seen it. KK: Yep! RF: In concern, in relation to the basket factory, and uh, so and she she donated a ton of really great photos of uh, the history of the area, I’m sure they’re in the archives. KK: I’m sure they’re in the, I’m sure they’re in the collection. EG: [Inaudible] RF: Yeah they’re great. KK: Well that's, that great, um, let’s see. Uh, well you brought a couple of other photos here so, why don't we take a look, why don't you tell us, I see uh… RF: Well, I have, I have to show you this photo here. This photo, and Mrs. Northrup would remember this… KK: I should’ve brought her! �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 12 RF: Well, anyway, this house is no longer there but if you're on the river road there, you go past where sunny side... KK: Sunny Shore, yeah. RF: and you keep going East to, there’s a curve, where 62nd… KK: Yep! RF: ...Where... KK: I know exactly where it is. RF: This house used to be right on that, on the right hand side of that property. That property went way back to a family named Purdy… KK: Okay… RF: Uh, Erastus Purdy he was a civil war veteran and he, he owned that property and they had a landing down below, on the river uh, and a man named uh, one of his sons [inaudible] Purdy they had a boat named after him, and uh he he was kind of a, well I don't know if it was just a tourist, tourist boat or if it was a working boat, but anyway they had a landing there and uh, were I think way back there was actually a trading post there, on that location right down below…. KK: Could be, yeah, because that's, you know, Mac’s Landing is down from there… RF: Yes! Yeah, right it has, there's an association between that and Mac’s Landing… KK: Okay… RF: But uh… KK: Yeah, that's very interesting. RF: Yeah. KK: That already looks like it had fallen on hard time there… RF: Oh yes! Yes. KK: Is that sand or is that snow in front? Is that a little bit of snow? RF: It is snow. EG: It looks like snow, yeah. KK: Yeah it looks like it because I don't see uh, leaves on the tree there. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 13 RF: But I’m sure it was a beautiful house at one time. KK: Yeah! EG: Yeah, lots of great shingle work in the gables and on the octagonal bay. Queen Anne revival… RF: The uh, one of the daughters her, think it was her granddaughter of the original owner, her name was Purdy and she had a friend of uh, she had somebody drive her to Saugatuck or wherever she wanted to go, and the car was a Pierce-Arrow. KK: Oh! RF: Was a beautiful old Pierce-Arrow and uh my mother always remembered that because it, nobody had a Pierce-Arrow. KK: You know what, gosh, Joan Northrup told me a story about that car. RF: I’ll bet. KK: Yeah, and I, bet you she, she knew who the people were. RF: Oh she would know that, yes! I know who the, uh, driver was the driver man’s name was uh, Cleo Art and he lived just down, down 62nd, er 66th street there he had a farm down there and uh, he was the driver and whenever she wanted to go somewhere, he would take her. But uh… [00:35:04] KK: That's great! RF: Yeah. KK: Tell us about your family, do you have children, er? RF: I have two sons, yes! KK: Okay. RF: and uh, they don't live in the area, one’s in Rhode Island and ones in Grand Rapids, but uh, and they they visit, or we visit them but uh, uh, but my family my mother uh, married a man from Fennville and they started a little uh, my my dad and my uncle in the, actually before World War Two in the late 30’s they started a little Mom and Pop grocery store meat market right on the main street where the Salt of the Earth is… KK: Oh! Okay! �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 14 RF: Yeah that was a, and then there’s a stairway going upstairs and then just to the, to the left of that was a little clothing store which was operated by by um my dad and my uncles father, and he had that since the uh early 20’s and uh then it was inherited by the next son and he ran it until the uh, late 60’s and then my uh my dad and my uncle uh, when they were drafted in World War Two they, let the people, the uh, there was a, there was a two brothers that uh, they purchased it, purchased it from they took it back over again and ran it until they got back from the service and they took it back again. KK: Oh that's interesting. RF: Yeah, and uh but they they had a little grocery store there and so so myself and my brothers we worked for them, worked in the store there and that sort of thing and uh… KK: In Fennville, you know obviously where the downtown is and then you know, as you come west, there’s, now it’s a parking lot but there’s a big empty area there, that’s you know, did that burn down? What was there? RF: No. Uh, well, at one time there was a bank on the uh, on the corner just uh, well it would be the south, uh, south, uh, southeast corner. KK: Yeah. RF: …and then, and then no there was a hardware store quite a large hardware store, farm implements on that corner and then next to that was a lumberyard… KK: Oh! RF: Yeah, going west and then next to that was the Fennville Herald newspaper house and it was real small little newspaper office with, and they had to set the type by hand, it was quite a thing, and uh, uh [pause] and then there was the business on the corner, Fennville tire but uh, yeah that was all businesses in there and there were houses behind there was a row of houses. KK: So what happened? Did it burn? RF: No, no... KK: They just tore it down? RF: There were no fires, uh yeah, it just [pause] it they, they were very old and I’m not sure how, where there was a [pause] in bad repair or the city bought it, I really don't know. I know the City now owns that, a large chunk of that land and uh, the uh Salt of the Earth uses part of it for a parking lot or other businesses but uh, yeah, there was a… KK: I’m glad to know that, I always wondered… RF: ...In the 60’s, in the 60’s it was a uh, it had had, a real upturn in economy, the canning factory was going great guns, three shifts, and uh, and uh, employment was high and uh a lot of migrant workers �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 15 were there in the summer and on weekends streets were full of people and uh, and then it kind of went down in the 70’s and 80’s and then that's just starting to come back again, yeah. KK: That’s very, very interesting. You have over here, that you said that you have a boat picture here? RF: Yeah this, this photo here [pause] this little sail boat was owned by a man named uh, Leo Tucker, and he was a fruit farmer uh, down by, on Hutchins lake and, and the name of the boat was the Kit Kat but it, it has a nice shot of the pavilion… KK: ...Oh, it looks wonderful! RF: ...and uh, and the uh, Coral Gables, and uh and uh this photo is my grandmother, uh, Otto Hines’ wife, Edith and it’s on top of Mount Bald Head and I’m going to say it’s not long after the pavilion was built, she was born in the 1870’s, late 1870’s so, she was a young woman but uh, you can see one of the large posts there, and uh, but you can see the pavilion and, and the two uh, [pause], parks…. [00:40:11] KK: ...and I love that you can see the old bridge… RF: Yes! The old bridge, yes... KK: The old bridge is still there… RF: Yeah, and so, and I did get this blown up and I’ve got a beautiful framed picture at home, those are my grandparents there, and uh, they were farmers their whole lives, and uh, when this, when their farm was built it was the first farm on that street 126th from 66th to Blue Star and that road was known as Hines Road. KK: Oh, really? RF: Yeah. KK: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so you're lucky to have such nice photos… RF: ...Yeah I am very lucky, these are, this is uh, uh a later picture with some vineyards in the front and they moved the windmill to the back of the house, and er the well and uh, but uh, it was still horse and buggy days, you can see buggy tracks here and uh, uh yeah that's pretty much… KK: ...Really really wonderful, thank you for bringing those. RF: Well… KK: ...Do you have any more questions, that you have Eric, that were on the list that we were supposed to ask? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 16 EG: No, we moved through a good list of things. Lots of really great things some things we haven't heard before… RF: ...Well thanks… EG: ...or that compliment things… KK: Yeah no, it's fun and I’m, I’m going to get you together with Joan Northrup… RF: Okay! I’d like that. KK: Yeah. EG: Anything else you’d like to say? RF: Well, here's one thing I’d like to add. You know the pavilion was, was such a highlight of the, uh, my parents and my, my grandfather Otto, he knew one of the uh, one of the uh, managers or something so he could always get in, and he had four daughters so, I’m assuming they all got in, that would be six people but at that time in history, and I don't know if you folks have ever heard this before, but and I, I don’t bring it up to sound like I’m uh, anti-Semite or anything like that but, the seats were, were marked ‘Gentiles’ for Gentiles and for Jews and one time, I don't know if it was a little crowded or what but my grandfather sat in a place where it said ‘For Jews’ and my mother will never forget this, she says a woman came by and just sat right on his lap until he got up. KK: No, there are, there are a lot of stories, it was very anti-Semitic, uh in Saugatuck and uh… RF: ...Well, yeah, I don’t, I’m not aware of the uh, I know it was, there was a separation there… KK: Yeah… RF: But… KK: They were not allowed, the Jews were not allowed to stay in a lot of the hotels… RF: Oh, really? KK: Yeah RF: Okay KK: Yeah, there’s some, there's some interesting, uh records of that and um, but uh that’s one story I have not heard. RF: Yeah KK: I guess, I guess a lot would’ve come over on those boats, you know what I mean? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 17 RF: From Chicago. KK: From Chicago, yes, so you’d have to accommodate it. RF: There were a few that uh, a few that were, that lived here. There were a few Jews that stayed here, that were, almost like natives and uh, of course South Haven had a… KK: Yes… RF: ...had a larger population of that and uh, [pause] uh, the, the old Glen Shores Golf Club, I know this because my Dad was best man with one of the sons of the owner who, who started the business just before the depression and uh, he had big plans for it and everything and some of the print outs of uh, advertising and everything he advertised it as a Christian place and he, he had a very subtle way of saying, the, the Jews weren't necessarily welcome. KK: It’s hard to imagine… RF: ...It’s a novelty, it’s uh, it’s uh, it was a different world back then, and it was long before World War Two. EG: Do you remember much, and thinking along those same lines, do you remember much uh, African American, People of Color in Saugatuck Douglas area? RF: No, I don't. In, in school when I was growing up uh, we had two or three families and that was it and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] um, [pause] I really don’t, I really don’t no. EG: Not much, not much reaction… [00:45:01] RF: ...Oh no, no, uh, no not at all, uh, there was uh, there was a Jamaican man who worked for one of the farmers there and I knew him a little bit. He used to come into town every, every uh every Saturday to buy his groceries and he, his skin was almost purple you know he, he was very dark, and but he was Jamaican and he uh, a good natured person and uh, hard working person and uh, he about the only uh, man of color that we would see. The uh, Spanish, er uh, I shouldn't say Spanish I should say the Mexican population, we always called them Spanish [pause] for some reason but Mexican is what they were, but Mexican didn't sound right so people said Spanish for some reason... KK: ...Well probably because that’s what they spoke… RF: ...I suppose that’s it, and so, they started uh, their numbers have rapidly increased uh, in uh, in recent years, and there were always Spanish people in school with us. Saugatuck was a little different, that was a little more unique, it was a little more [pause] all [pause] Anglo, all uh, all white. Even to this day it’s more that way, but uh… KK: ...Well that’s really interesting. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 18 EG: One other question that I’ve asked people as we’ve done these recordings. So we’re saving these, with the idea that these will be around 50 plus years from now, so uh, thinking ahead, imagining someone listening to this in uh, 2068 uh, are there, is there anything you’d like them to know about your life or the community here, as it is today? RF: I can just say that, that I can’t complain about anything, I learned a good work ethic, working for my grandparents and uh, and my parents taught me a good work ethic and uh, I think that was a big benefit for me growing into adulthood but on the other side, I got to see, I got to see a great community kind of evolve into a more modern day, uh, [pause] uh, [pause] place and, and those are great memories, but I also have the memories that my parents and grandparents uh, told me about how it was back then in the horse and buggy days and uh, but uh, [pause] I guess I’d just like to say that it was a great place to grow up, uh, a great place to experience. The summers were uh, the winters were kind of brutal but the summers were, summers were great, and uh, Lake Michigan, to have Lake Michigan and uh, the sand dunes and uh, [pause] the river and everything it was a great experience and uh, no regrets. KK: Good! RF: I guess that I would regret that I didn't ask more questions uh, to my grandparents, uh, to try to absorb a little more information but uh, uh, but uh, other than that I have no regrets. It was great, and I love being able to talk to someone that experienced the same things I did, and uh, relate to the same things, those are always fun, but uh, this historical society is doing everything it can to preserve these things and, I, I salute them for that, that's a great thing. KK: Well thank you very much! RF: Thank you. EG: You're more than welcome. Alright, well with that, that will conclude this interview. Thanks again. RF: Thank you. [00:49:24] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-FosterR-20180723 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Foster, Raymond Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-23 Title A name given to the resource Raymond Foster (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Raymond Foster spent much of his summers at his grandarents' farm outside Saugatuck, Michigan. His memories include watching many groups of motorcycles enter Saugatuck in the mid- to late-1960s. He also recalls that the geography of the land around the farm allowed him to hear Duke Ellington play at a 1950s jazz festifal that was 1/2 mile away. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Kutzel, Ken (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Farming Motorcycle gangs Gay culture Music festivals Beaches Antisemitism Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c150c42df5d80bb6bf8cc543935bdc72.mp3 62c69cbe0fe79a2ddf83b73ef83dfe14 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7eeeebf32dc0410571db954af87f8ee.pdf f8aa78585478ae33bc5db1b3738132d5 PDF Text Text Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 1 Eric Gollannek: This is Eric Gollannek and I... Ken Kutzel: …and Ken Kutzel… EG: …and I’m here today with… Ray Foster: Ray Foster. EG: Uh, at the old school house in Douglas, Michigan on July 23rd, uh, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to meet with us today, we’re interested in learning more about your family’s history, in particular experiences of summer. Can you please state your full name and spell it for us? RF: Raymond Edward Foster, R A Y M O N D, E D W A R D, F O S T E R EG: That’s great, alright, so we’ll, we’ll continue our conversation here, you brought in a few things here about your farm, you want to tell us a little bit about where it is and… RF: Well this, this was kind of a family farm, um, my mother, mothers’ parents and uh, her grandparents uh, um, bought eighty acres. They came from Chicago in the late 1800’s and uh, bought eighty acres uh, near the corner of 66th street and uh, 126th and uh, they [pause] they farmed it and uh, [pause] uh, a lot of different things. They had blueberries and raspberries and uh, they had 20 head of cattle and uh, chickens and uh, at different times, different things, uh. Through the years and uh, they raised four daughters, my mother was the oldest and uh, [pause] she spent, she was the last one to leave the farm. The other daughters grew up, we got married and then before World War Two, and then my mother got married after World War Two and uh, so she spent more time on the farm. But as I was growing, when I grew up and [pause] I, I stayed there with my grandparents. They were in good health and uh, help them do things [pause] and uh, but mainly just really enjoyed the place. And uh, it was uh, just a just a beautiful retreat, and uh, a lot of great place to explore and uh, [pause] uh, [long pause] KK: Is the house still standing? RF: The house is still standing, it’s had several owners since then, and uh, but uh, [pause] but it’s been, it’s changed some. Uh, considerably. The house, the outside structure’s pretty much the same but it has a garage added to it, but uh, and uh… KK: I noticed it says here that that’s the Hines homestead? RF: Yes... KK: Is that what it was called? RF: Well yes, my, [stutters] I, I, I didn’t mention that but my, my great grandfather's name was Emo Hines and he came from Chicago and he was not a farmer but he kind of adopted the, the [stutters] hob hobby, but he had just one son, Otto who was my, my uh grandfather and my great grandfather was a German immigrant and uh, [pause] he uh, [pause] along with his son uh, they kind of developed the �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 2 land. They planted fruit trees and grape vineyards and, and uh, and raised cattle, and tilled the soil with a team of horses and uh, um, [pause] it was a [pause] a [pause] a labor of love I think, uh, uh, they uh, it stayed in the family till the 70’s and uh, so ah, let’s see where can I go from there uh, but I, but I, I spent a lot of time there in the 60’s, the 50’s and 60’s and uh, [pause] and uh, [pause] well… KK: How ‘bout, give another...tell us, you, the other day when we spoke with you. You started to tell us a story about one time when you were on the farm and the motorcycles came in... RF: Oh! KK: Would you talk about that please? RF: No, actually that was at my parents’ house… KK: Oh! RF: ...on M89 east of Fennville. KK: Well let’s talk about that anyway! [00:04:39] RF: Okay! Sure! Well it was probably ‘65 ‘66, maybe ‘64 ‘65 ‘66, [pause] I think by ‘67-’68 it kind of fizzled out. But, on a Memorial Day weekend or Fourth of July weekend, uh, you could hear, hear from a long ways away this, this sound of motorcycles coming, and there was long strings of them, and various, [stutters] grou-groups, probably a dozen in a group or so, maybe more, and they came from Detroit, Flint, and uh, [pause] uh, mainly east, on the other, eastern side of the state, but uh, I guess I could describe them as a colorful group. They weren't, they weren't necessarily uh, like uh, social club they were, they more of, of an old [stutters] I I I don’t want to make a comparison to the Hell’s Angels but they were, they were kind of that style. Uh, their, their jackets on the back had, had little titles like uh ‘Disciples from Hell’ or ‘Hell’s Disciples’ or that sort of thing. That theme was very popular, and uh, but when I was able to go to Saugatuck, uh, on those weekends it was incredibly busy, they would actually, unless you could prove you lived there they wouldn’t let you in they would stop at the top of the hill, they wouldn’t let cars down. And, the motorcycles would be rode up the entire like, from Phil’s all the way down to the corner and uh, they um, [pause] they would pretty much take over the town. As, as strange as that might sound, and and the police were, were usually, it wasn’t like today, they were, it was a small police force and they might rent a few, we referred to ‘them as Rent-a-Cops because they were just hired for that special occasion. And uh, I’m, I’m not aware of any major, uh, conflicts that uh, that occurred. There may have been some but I wasn’t really aware of anything, like a, any kind of a small riot or anything like that. I wasn't aware of anything like that but, but as a teenager it was quite a novelty to see that. To be exposed to that, and uh, [pause] so, [pause] um, [pause] well, that was pretty much it, I mean uh, just, just to see it, holiday was over they were gone… KK: Did that happen every weekend? Or… RF: No, no, no. Just on, I only saw it on a holiday weekends, and uh, so, that was uh, kind of a, unique thing. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 3 EG: What were the reactions of your parents, or grandparents? RF: Well you know I… EG: Or neighbors to that? RF: You know, as far as my, the uh, [pause] the [pause] my parents’ generation, I don’t think they uh, I don’t think really could comprehend what was going on. I don’t, [stutters] I, I was never aware that they, uh, it wasn’t something they were happy about, I’m sure, I I know that much but as far as uh, feeling threatened or anything like that or, uh, [pause] they just, they just looked at it as some kind of a temporary thing, a phase I think. I don’t think they thought of it as a, um, you know a… EG: Collapse of civilization… RF: [Laughs] Yeah! Sure, that, yeah. I’m sure they thought of something like that. Yeah…. KK: Although at that time, was the um, was the summer season, here in Saugatuck, I mean was it um, as long as it is now, er, you know? RF: Well, I think, I think I would say it is, um, people started coming up, [pause] um probably before memorial day and, and um, to their cottages and such and uh, they pretty much stayed until after Labor Day, shortly after Labor Day. Yeah, there was good numbers of people. It’s hard to make a comparison between then and now, because things just look at a lot different. They appear a lot different. KK: Why don’t you talk about that? RF: Well, I, I guess I could say that, at that time, it was a very affordable place to go, for, for the average middle class person, and [pause] even though it had a history [pause] from, that I had heard about, you know ‘Well Saugatuck is really one of, a place you want to go because [stutters] they, they, they have bars they stay open all night’ and um there’s that kind of atmosphere but, but as a young person, you, you kind of want to be exposed to a little bit of that. KK: Well sure! All: [Laugh] [00:09:54] RF: Just to, just to find out for yourself and uh, but, that’s, that’s probably the most striking thing, and the development, there’s much more development today. You could, you could see the water when you came in off of, of Blue Start and came into town and you could see the water, uh all the way. There were no condos or anything like that, and uh, uh, [pause] so, [pause] I hesitate using the word quaint, but if you, if you were there in the winter you might call it that, but the summer there was a lot of people so it wasn't really, it was more, it was a tourist town, it was strictly a tourist town. But uh, [pause] uh, the Coral Gables was a really popular place at that time, very popular place. People would be lined up waiting to get in, and uh, and [pause] uh, I do remember some scuffles out front just as a bystander watching some people. Probably some unruly people getting thrown out, and those things kind of stick �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 4 in your head. But, uh, [pause] uh [pause] it was an evolution I guess, you know it just evolved from, you know my parents’ generation, they probably would’ve saw something, even more, uh, more quaint I guess you’d say, more slow paced and um,[pause] uh, but things have, thing have evolved to what they are today and uh, it’s it is, but uh I suppose it’s relative in a way, but it is more, more expensive for the average person to just go anywhere and spend some time in a, a restaurant or a bar. EG: Beyond Coral Gables, were there other places that stood out to you? That you spent time, or… RF: Well… EG: Or stayed away from, or? RF: Well the Butler and Coral Gables were always the biggest two, biggest items, and uh, everything else was just really small. Like uh, there was a place called the Boathouse, and that was down at the end of the street, across Wick’s Park, in that area, and uh, and uh, all the other little places were just um, [pause] were lesser, and then, then I, one thing I remembered too in, in it may have been ‘68 or ‘67, you guys might know, the Blue Tempo came in… KK: Yes let’s talk about that RF: Well, you know, as, as a, as a person growing up at that time, I didn’t even, I didn’t even understand what uh, or fully understand what uh, [pause] um, what a gay, the whole concept of gay people was… EG: Sure… RF: So, uh, but I knew this was a unique place, and I knew it had, but, had I known more, in in hindsight, I might of, might of tried to go there because I know they had great music, and uh, I’m a great uh, admirer of that kind of, uh, music, and a great history for music and uh, but uh, [pause] uh because now, as a 70 year uh, and having lived in the area, or known people in the area for a long time, that whole uh, uh, [pause] uh, shall I say the [pause] the gay scene, is is a, it doesn't, it doesn't even leave an impression on me anymore. KK: It’s become part of the culture. RF: It’s part of the culture, and uh, so, but, but it was always know as a unique place. It was the location was unique and uh, everybody knew that this was a gay bar, and uh, and uh, so, I wish I could tell you I’d been there and experienced it but I, I can’t. A friend of mine was there and I only get bits and pieces from him, but uh, [pause] uh [pause] but uh. EG: What were some of the reactions or things that people, other people’s reactions or things that you’ve heard about? RF: About… EG: [Inaudible] RF: About, concerning that? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 5 EG: Yeah! Ray: Ah, [pause] you know, people uh, were not really very activist type people at that time. Most people, you know, they went about their own business and if something new came along, well they talked about it, but as far as being a [pause] being a objectionable thing or a something that really disturbed people. People just kind of...after a while it just blew by. [00:15:14] KK: [Inaudible] RF: Yeah, and uh, so, the reaction, my impression of the reaction wasn’t, wasn’t anything really big. EG: Just another bar, another club that has good music and we’re probably not going there. That kind of… RF: That kind of reaction. EG: That kind of reaction? RF: That kind of a thing yeah, that’s fair to say. Yeah. KK: You know um, a question I have for you, being a Douglas resident myself, uh, what are your memories of the Douglas side? RF: Well, I occasionally, I would go there with my uh, grandparents occasionally. There was, there was a little grocery store down on the end of the street towards the river, uh, where uh, um [pause] well there was a little novelty store there near Naughtons... KK: Yeah. RF: Near Naughtons store there, that at one time there was a grocery store there… KK: Was that Vansicles? RF: Vansicles, yes! And they would go there occasionally, and uh, [pause] and we would also pick uh, they they raised uh, raspberries so we would pick raspberries and we would bring them into town and right where the park is, where the ballpark is there was a man, a vendor there, [pause] and uh, he would take all we had and uh, he would sell them to the tourists and uh, gosh, just trying to remember his name now, he had a son who was blind [pause] um, [long pause] gah! KK: Well it’s alright, it will come to you when you’re not thinking about it. RF: Right. But anyway it was a, so we did that, we would hang out there for a while but at that time, across the street, the uh, there was uh, a Catholic School there too. So we knew the, we knew about that, and at that time the original Catholic Church wasn’t St. Peter's it was just down the street. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 6 KK: Right. RF: And uh, one little side light to that, I have a, uh, my dad [pause] had an uncle and uh, I [pause] and he was the first baby to be baptized there, and I should’ve brought the name, the baptized name was all the little organizations in town gave him a name and when he went back many years later he was embarrassed because they mentioned him, and brought him, and mentioned him and everything but his baptized name was uh, Peter Paul Benedict, uh, Jacob Ivan, [pause] Clark and uh, and they all gave him a name so, it was, it was an embarrassing thing for him as an adult. But uh, he did happen to be the first baby that was baptized there uh, he was a part of a large family that was also in the area. But [pause] but it was a, it was a, it was a incredibly quiet quaint little town. Just down the street there was a place called the Delicatessen and a man named Red Delky owned it and he had a baker working for him that was a refugee from Austria, a World War Two refugee, and an incredibly talented pastry chef and anybody my age can tell you, that lived in the area that they made the best bread and uh, and uh, uh [pause] sweet rolls and that sort of thing uh, that you could find anywhere. And uh, and uh, down a little bit further there was a little drug store so it was a, really a, had everything. KK: [Inaudible} RF: Just a little town! And uh, I uh, I would also go on Friday night, quite often on Friday night with my grandparents, near the corner of uh, Blue Star and uh, Maple Street, uh going to the north. There was a house on the right hand side, at one time it was a resort, owned by my grandfather's uncle, Fred Hines and [pause] they would pick up people, you would pick up people that came in on the boats and then bring them back to the resort and uh, his wife would uh, do the housekeeping and uh, he was just mainly just took them around town to the beach or wherever they wanted to go and uh, but, they had a little resort there. So but, in later years when I went there with my grandparents, the uh, the next generation down lived there, my, would be a cousin to my grandmother, grandparents, er grandfather and uh, so we would just go there, spend some time there with them, they would uh, talk about old times and that sort of thing, and uh, but uh, it was just [pause] a nice quiet little visit. But uh, I don't know, what else can I tell you? [00:20:46] KK: Do you remember the, uh, the rock festival at all? Were you involved in that, or? RF: I did go to the one at uh, near Goshorn Lake… KK: Okay, that’s Potawatomi Beach, right? RF: Potawatomi Beach, yes. Uh, yes, I did go to that in ‘68, I believe KK: I believe that’s what it was…. RF: I think it was in ‘68, and it was hot and dry and sandy roads and people would, uh, it was [inaudible] it was incredibly crowded and uh, you couldn’t get close to the band stand, it was just uh, again there was, there was that large influx of uh, motorcycle people and they kind of dominated an area there, but uh, so you could hear things from a distance unless you, unless you somehow got there real early and �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 7 worked your way in, but it was kind of a phenomenon I guess because the volume of people, yeah I think I, I think I read where cars were lined up all the way from, from that park all the way to the bridge at the river… KK: I have heard that…. RF: It’s hard to imagine… KK: Yeah EG: Right RF: So, and then they decided they’d never do that again, but uh, the history of those types of things are, is, is great. I mean when it goes back to uh, when they had a pavilion and then it’s the uh, got that racetrack… KK: Right… RF: But uh, I do remember, uh, probably the late 50’s when they had a Jazz Festival, the Saugatuck Jazz Festival, uh, at the racetrack there and uh, Duke Ellington and a few other celebrities were there and my grandparents farm was kind of a, like a mile south of there, on 126th and uh, just about half a mile from the corner of Blue Star and 126th, and with the windows open at night, I remember them introducing Duke Ellington and them mentioning his name, that always stuck in my, stuck with me forever after that. I thought, wow what would’ve been so great to be there… KK: And that sound would carry over because it was all farms… RF: Yes. KK: Yeah. RF: Pretty, quite open at that time. EG: So you could hear? You could hear music and…. RF: I could, yes, yeah, not really well but some, yeah. EG: Yeah. RF: And prior to that it was a stock car track, a little dirt stock car track and there was uh, um, uh, auto racing there. It was quite, for many years, it went on but uh, I never experienced that, I wish I had but uh, [pause] um [pause] KK: Any contact, uh at all, or anything you can share about contact with Oxbow or the people from there? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 8 RF: No, I never really knew about Oxbow until later I, I consider myself an art lover but I, I never really knew about it. I wish that I had known more about it at a younger age but it’s a, it’s a great great thing to have in the area. KK: Yeah, it was more a private club… RF: Way back! KK: And it's interesting that you bring that up because you're not the first person who said ‘We really didn't pay attention to it’. RF: No, I never really knew much about it, till later years, and uh, but uh... EG: Do you remember much of seeing many artists around? Seeing people painting in town, in Douglas or Saugatuck, or? RF: No, I always knew it was an art, artsy community but I didn't spend much time, you know, going from shop to shop, I uh, really at that point in my life, I wasn't really that, I was more, uh, driving your car, go to the beach, and uh that sort of thing, uh, and getting together with people, but uh, the art, [pause] I know it existed but I never, I was never exposed to it. [00:25:16] KK: Then, what was the beach like then? RF: Oh, it was great! Uh, there was, there was of course the Oval Beach, but then, the Douglas, Douglas had a beach, and then there was several beach on down, uh, there were then. I never remembered big crowds there like today. I have seen some photographs of big crowds but uh, but uh, it was a they were, they were fairly well kept up and uh, and uh, it was quite a thing to go the Oval Beach was uh, was really quite a special thing. KK: Were you guys aware at all of the nude beach? Or did that come later? RF: You know, I wasn't aware of that, I heard about it, no I heard about it. I did hear about it as a uh, probably in the late 60’s I heard about it. KK: Okay. RF: But uh, that’s really the end of it there, I, I uh, wasn’t curious about that. KK: Yeah, yeah. Had, had you ever been out on that Denison property with all those dunes? RF: Yes! I have! KK: Yeah that’s kind of, well talk about that a little bit, because that I think has to be seen to be believed. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 9 RF: Well, its, its south of the mouth of the river. I, I did walk that and to the, to the uh, old light house, in that area, and that's great. That was great country to explore and to follow it all the way up to the, to bald head and then back down, it was a great, great experience and very natural area and uh, you could see the old pilings in, in the pine and that little, where the channel was… KK: Yeah, the lagoon, yeah. RF: ...and the lagoon yeah and uh, and then uh, well of course there was the pier you could walk out on that, but [pause] uh, [pause] it was a, you I considered it a great area, beautiful area but I never got to the north side there north side of the channel where the Denison’s property was I never really saw that. Uh… KK: Well it was hard to get out there, always had to take that dug road… RF: Yeah, Dugout road, yeah. I, my mother, in later years uh worked for uh Ken Denison and planted, I think, she and another lady cleaned the boats when it was, when it, when they were in business out there at the end and…. KK: You're talking Broward Marine… RF: Broward Marine, yes, and, and they uh, uh, my mother planted a whole row of daffodils along the bank there and was around long enough to see how nice they looked and uh, and uh, she thought the Denison’s were great people, generous people and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] uh, [pause] only knew, she knew the dad some but knew Ken more uh, but uh, never, I, I don’t know if the big house was built at that time but there was a house there along with the uh, the [pause] marina and the business, but uh, [pause] um, [pause]. The uh, [pause] well going back to the farm there uh, back then all the roads were dirt roads pretty much uh, they hadn’t paved a lot of the roads there and uh, so you uh, that was a [pause] a back in time compared to how it is today. KK: Yeah, where did you go to school? RF: I did go to school in Fennville that's where my family actually lived. KK: So was it the old high school there, or? RF: I did go in the old, to the old high school for a couple years, before it was uh, not used anymore but uh, uh… KK: And what about for a grade school was in Fennville also? RF: Yep, that was also in Fennville, yeah, uh… KK: I'm going to ask you a funny question… RF: ...no, no it’s fine. KK: Did, did you have Mrs. Northrup for any… �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 RF: Yes! Yes I did! [Laughs] KK: [Laughs] Oh, that’s, so, she’s a real good close of mine, and um… RF: Oh my gosh, how old is she? KK: She’s about 93, er um, yep. She has dinner at my house every Monday, in fact she’ll be over tonight… [00:30:03] RF: Really? KK: I’ll have to mention you. RF: She was my third grade teacher. KK: But its, its, she, I was just telling, ah, somebody today uh, we go out with her quite often and no matter where we go, she’s had every person… RF: Oh, no doubt. KK: She taught at, yeah, she taught in Fennville. RF: Yes. KK: Oh that’s kind of wonderful. RF: She was a sweet lady, I, I can tell you that. KK: And it was her family that owned, uh Sunny Shore. RF: Oh, really? KK: On [inaudible] the river road. RF: See I thought, I thought they lived more out on the...south. KK: They lived in Allegan, but it was her husband’s family that went there as kids. RF: Okay, and she did have a son, that's true. Is that true? Yes? KK: Ah, yep, yeah uh [inaudible] Jeff! RF: Okay. 10 �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 11 KK: Her son Jeff, he’s still around. RF: Alright, alright. KK: Yeah. RF: Yeah. KK: It’s a small world! RF: Oh! It’s a lot smaller than you realize if you, if we really, I mean it, when I look at this, or even a newer one I, I know so many of the people on these placards or I’m familiar with them. KK: Well, it’s a small area, really. RF: Yeah, well, for example uh, uh, this farm here this Ed Work farm… KK: Mhm RF: Mrs. Work, Mary Work, she was a teacher in the Saugatuck Douglas area for many years but then she taught in Fennville. She, she uh, her family, her dads family were, were involved in the uh, basket factory. KK: Okay. RF: The name, you probably have seen it. KK: Yep! RF: In concern, in relation to the basket factory, and uh, so and she she donated a ton of really great photos of uh, the history of the area, I’m sure they’re in the archives. KK: I’m sure they’re in the, I’m sure they’re in the collection. EG: [Inaudible] RF: Yeah they’re great. KK: Well that's, that great, um, let’s see. Uh, well you brought a couple of other photos here so, why don't we take a look, why don't you tell us, I see uh… RF: Well, I have, I have to show you this photo here. This photo, and Mrs. Northrup would remember this… KK: I should’ve brought her! �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 12 RF: Well, anyway, this house is no longer there but if you're on the river road there, you go past where sunny side... KK: Sunny Shore, yeah. RF: and you keep going East to, there’s a curve, where 62nd… KK: Yep! RF: ...Where... KK: I know exactly where it is. RF: This house used to be right on that, on the right hand side of that property. That property went way back to a family named Purdy… KK: Okay… RF: Uh, Erastus Purdy he was a civil war veteran and he, he owned that property and they had a landing down below, on the river uh, and a man named uh, one of his sons [inaudible] Purdy they had a boat named after him, and uh he he was kind of a, well I don't know if it was just a tourist, tourist boat or if it was a working boat, but anyway they had a landing there and uh, were I think way back there was actually a trading post there, on that location right down below…. KK: Could be, yeah, because that's, you know, Mac’s Landing is down from there… RF: Yes! Yeah, right it has, there's an association between that and Mac’s Landing… KK: Okay… RF: But uh… KK: Yeah, that's very interesting. RF: Yeah. KK: That already looks like it had fallen on hard time there… RF: Oh yes! Yes. KK: Is that sand or is that snow in front? Is that a little bit of snow? RF: It is snow. EG: It looks like snow, yeah. KK: Yeah it looks like it because I don't see uh, leaves on the tree there. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 13 RF: But I’m sure it was a beautiful house at one time. KK: Yeah! EG: Yeah, lots of great shingle work in the gables and on the octagonal bay. Queen Anne revival… RF: The uh, one of the daughters her, think it was her granddaughter of the original owner, her name was Purdy and she had a friend of uh, she had somebody drive her to Saugatuck or wherever she wanted to go, and the car was a Pierce-Arrow. KK: Oh! RF: Was a beautiful old Pierce-Arrow and uh my mother always remembered that because it, nobody had a Pierce-Arrow. KK: You know what, gosh, Joan Northrup told me a story about that car. RF: I’ll bet. KK: Yeah, and I, bet you she, she knew who the people were. RF: Oh she would know that, yes! I know who the, uh, driver was the driver man’s name was uh, Cleo Art and he lived just down, down 62nd, er 66th street there he had a farm down there and uh, he was the driver and whenever she wanted to go somewhere, he would take her. But uh… [00:35:04] KK: That's great! RF: Yeah. KK: Tell us about your family, do you have children, er? RF: I have two sons, yes! KK: Okay. RF: and uh, they don't live in the area, one’s in Rhode Island and ones in Grand Rapids, but uh, and they they visit, or we visit them but uh, uh, but my family my mother uh, married a man from Fennville and they started a little uh, my my dad and my uncle in the, actually before World War Two in the late 30’s they started a little Mom and Pop grocery store meat market right on the main street where the Salt of the Earth is… KK: Oh! Okay! �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 14 RF: Yeah that was a, and then there’s a stairway going upstairs and then just to the, to the left of that was a little clothing store which was operated by by um my dad and my uncles father, and he had that since the uh early 20’s and uh then it was inherited by the next son and he ran it until the uh, late 60’s and then my uh my dad and my uncle uh, when they were drafted in World War Two they, let the people, the uh, there was a, there was a two brothers that uh, they purchased it, purchased it from they took it back over again and ran it until they got back from the service and they took it back again. KK: Oh that's interesting. RF: Yeah, and uh but they they had a little grocery store there and so so myself and my brothers we worked for them, worked in the store there and that sort of thing and uh… KK: In Fennville, you know obviously where the downtown is and then you know, as you come west, there’s, now it’s a parking lot but there’s a big empty area there, that’s you know, did that burn down? What was there? RF: No. Uh, well, at one time there was a bank on the uh, on the corner just uh, well it would be the south, uh, south, uh, southeast corner. KK: Yeah. RF: …and then, and then no there was a hardware store quite a large hardware store, farm implements on that corner and then next to that was a lumberyard… KK: Oh! RF: Yeah, going west and then next to that was the Fennville Herald newspaper house and it was real small little newspaper office with, and they had to set the type by hand, it was quite a thing, and uh, uh [pause] and then there was the business on the corner, Fennville tire but uh, yeah that was all businesses in there and there were houses behind there was a row of houses. KK: So what happened? Did it burn? RF: No, no... KK: They just tore it down? RF: There were no fires, uh yeah, it just [pause] it they, they were very old and I’m not sure how, where there was a [pause] in bad repair or the city bought it, I really don't know. I know the City now owns that, a large chunk of that land and uh, the uh Salt of the Earth uses part of it for a parking lot or other businesses but uh, yeah, there was a… KK: I’m glad to know that, I always wondered… RF: ...In the 60’s, in the 60’s it was a uh, it had had, a real upturn in economy, the canning factory was going great guns, three shifts, and uh, and uh, employment was high and uh a lot of migrant workers �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 15 were there in the summer and on weekends streets were full of people and uh, and then it kind of went down in the 70’s and 80’s and then that's just starting to come back again, yeah. KK: That’s very, very interesting. You have over here, that you said that you have a boat picture here? RF: Yeah this, this photo here [pause] this little sail boat was owned by a man named uh, Leo Tucker, and he was a fruit farmer uh, down by, on Hutchins lake and, and the name of the boat was the Kit Kat but it, it has a nice shot of the pavilion… KK: ...Oh, it looks wonderful! RF: ...and uh, and the uh, Coral Gables, and uh and uh this photo is my grandmother, uh, Otto Hines’ wife, Edith and it’s on top of Mount Bald Head and I’m going to say it’s not long after the pavilion was built, she was born in the 1870’s, late 1870’s so, she was a young woman but uh, you can see one of the large posts there, and uh, but you can see the pavilion and, and the two uh, [pause], parks…. [00:40:11] KK: ...and I love that you can see the old bridge… RF: Yes! The old bridge, yes... KK: The old bridge is still there… RF: Yeah, and so, and I did get this blown up and I’ve got a beautiful framed picture at home, those are my grandparents there, and uh, they were farmers their whole lives, and uh, when this, when their farm was built it was the first farm on that street 126th from 66th to Blue Star and that road was known as Hines Road. KK: Oh, really? RF: Yeah. KK: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so you're lucky to have such nice photos… RF: ...Yeah I am very lucky, these are, this is uh, uh a later picture with some vineyards in the front and they moved the windmill to the back of the house, and er the well and uh, but uh, it was still horse and buggy days, you can see buggy tracks here and uh, uh yeah that's pretty much… KK: ...Really really wonderful, thank you for bringing those. RF: Well… KK: ...Do you have any more questions, that you have Eric, that were on the list that we were supposed to ask? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 16 EG: No, we moved through a good list of things. Lots of really great things some things we haven't heard before… RF: ...Well thanks… EG: ...or that compliment things… KK: Yeah no, it's fun and I’m, I’m going to get you together with Joan Northrup… RF: Okay! I’d like that. KK: Yeah. EG: Anything else you’d like to say? RF: Well, here's one thing I’d like to add. You know the pavilion was, was such a highlight of the, uh, my parents and my, my grandfather Otto, he knew one of the uh, one of the uh, managers or something so he could always get in, and he had four daughters so, I’m assuming they all got in, that would be six people but at that time in history, and I don't know if you folks have ever heard this before, but and I, I don’t bring it up to sound like I’m uh, anti-Semite or anything like that but, the seats were, were marked ‘Gentiles’ for Gentiles and for Jews and one time, I don't know if it was a little crowded or what but my grandfather sat in a place where it said ‘For Jews’ and my mother will never forget this, she says a woman came by and just sat right on his lap until he got up. KK: No, there are, there are a lot of stories, it was very anti-Semitic, uh in Saugatuck and uh… RF: ...Well, yeah, I don’t, I’m not aware of the uh, I know it was, there was a separation there… KK: Yeah… RF: But… KK: They were not allowed, the Jews were not allowed to stay in a lot of the hotels… RF: Oh, really? KK: Yeah RF: Okay KK: Yeah, there’s some, there's some interesting, uh records of that and um, but uh that’s one story I have not heard. RF: Yeah KK: I guess, I guess a lot would’ve come over on those boats, you know what I mean? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 17 RF: From Chicago. KK: From Chicago, yes, so you’d have to accommodate it. RF: There were a few that uh, a few that were, that lived here. There were a few Jews that stayed here, that were, almost like natives and uh, of course South Haven had a… KK: Yes… RF: ...had a larger population of that and uh, [pause] uh, the, the old Glen Shores Golf Club, I know this because my Dad was best man with one of the sons of the owner who, who started the business just before the depression and uh, he had big plans for it and everything and some of the print outs of uh, advertising and everything he advertised it as a Christian place and he, he had a very subtle way of saying, the, the Jews weren't necessarily welcome. KK: It’s hard to imagine… RF: ...It’s a novelty, it’s uh, it’s uh, it was a different world back then, and it was long before World War Two. EG: Do you remember much, and thinking along those same lines, do you remember much uh, African American, People of Color in Saugatuck Douglas area? RF: No, I don't. In, in school when I was growing up uh, we had two or three families and that was it and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] um, [pause] I really don’t, I really don’t no. EG: Not much, not much reaction… [00:45:01] RF: ...Oh no, no, uh, no not at all, uh, there was uh, there was a Jamaican man who worked for one of the farmers there and I knew him a little bit. He used to come into town every, every uh every Saturday to buy his groceries and he, his skin was almost purple you know he, he was very dark, and but he was Jamaican and he uh, a good natured person and uh, hard working person and uh, he about the only uh, man of color that we would see. The uh, Spanish, er uh, I shouldn't say Spanish I should say the Mexican population, we always called them Spanish [pause] for some reason but Mexican is what they were, but Mexican didn't sound right so people said Spanish for some reason... KK: ...Well probably because that’s what they spoke… RF: ...I suppose that’s it, and so, they started uh, their numbers have rapidly increased uh, in uh, in recent years, and there were always Spanish people in school with us. Saugatuck was a little different, that was a little more unique, it was a little more [pause] all [pause] Anglo, all uh, all white. Even to this day it’s more that way, but uh… KK: ...Well that’s really interesting. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 18 EG: One other question that I’ve asked people as we’ve done these recordings. So we’re saving these, with the idea that these will be around 50 plus years from now, so uh, thinking ahead, imagining someone listening to this in uh, 2068 uh, are there, is there anything you’d like them to know about your life or the community here, as it is today? RF: I can just say that, that I can’t complain about anything, I learned a good work ethic, working for my grandparents and uh, and my parents taught me a good work ethic and uh, I think that was a big benefit for me growing into adulthood but on the other side, I got to see, I got to see a great community kind of evolve into a more modern day, uh, [pause] uh, [pause] place and, and those are great memories, but I also have the memories that my parents and grandparents uh, told me about how it was back then in the horse and buggy days and uh, but uh, [pause] I guess I’d just like to say that it was a great place to grow up, uh, a great place to experience. The summers were uh, the winters were kind of brutal but the summers were, summers were great, and uh, Lake Michigan, to have Lake Michigan and uh, the sand dunes and uh, [pause] the river and everything it was a great experience and uh, no regrets. KK: Good! RF: I guess that I would regret that I didn't ask more questions uh, to my grandparents, uh, to try to absorb a little more information but uh, uh, but uh, other than that I have no regrets. It was great, and I love being able to talk to someone that experienced the same things I did, and uh, relate to the same things, those are always fun, but uh, this historical society is doing everything it can to preserve these things and, I, I salute them for that, that's a great thing. KK: Well thank you very much! RF: Thank you. EG: You're more than welcome. Alright, well with that, that will conclude this interview. Thanks again. RF: Thank you. [00:49:24] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-FosterR-20180723 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Foster, Raymond Edward Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-23 Title A name given to the resource Raymond Foster (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Ray Foster grew up on a family farm near Douglas, Michigan. In this interivew, Foster remembers the motorcycle gangs driving through town during summer holiday weekends, the rock music festival in 1968, and the Saugatuck Jazz Festival. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Kutzel, Ken (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Holland (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Beaches Music festivals Motorcycle gangs Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5c12aef1ad3b093d618dc092cbb565b7.jpg d619b89d80dcb15a30e18d1228e1a1c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Brigham-D_0078 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brigham, D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1950 Title A name given to the resource Raymond Grimes Eddy standing on Ferry Street Description An account of the resource Photograph of a man standing in Ferry Street by Beech-Hurst. Circa 1950s Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by D. Brigham as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6fae1e2c06a3e43e12526ebad874b016.pdf 31fb909e16d9b31f48c40c90b84f1dd3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Raymond McVeigh Interviewers: Saidah Miller and Lauren Biggs Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/29/2011 Runtime: 01:25:28 Biography and Description Raymond McVeigh discusses his involvement with the Pro-Life movement as a Catholic. Transcript Saidah: Ok. So could you give us some basic information about yourself? You name? Your place of birth? RJ: Uh…My name is RJ McVey. Raymond. Everybody calls me RJ. I’m…born near Detroit, Michigan. I’m nineteen years old. Saidah: Alright RJ: I’m from Lansing. Where I was raised. Saidah: Ok. Are you apart of any specific religion? RJ: I’m Catholic. Saidah: Ok. And are you currently employed? What profession are you interested in? RJ: Um…Well… I worked part time with Grand Valley tutoring center. But I’m studying premedicine. Hope to be a medical doctor someday. Saidah: Awesome. Are you apart of any political party? RJ: Not officially. Saidah: Alright. And so you are involved in the Pro-Life movement. What exactly is Pro-Life? RJ: Um… the Pro-Life position would be that human life is intrinsically valuable at all stages of development. Um… that we seek to defend life from conception to natural death. Page 1 �Saidah: Ok , and did you grow up in a Pro-Life household? RJ: Not… I grew up in a Christian household. It wasn’t even really predominantly a Catholic household really. My mother was Methodist and my father was raised Catholic. But it never got spoken of in my household really. I’ve really initiated it within my own family. Now I definitely say we’re, my parents and my brother who still lives at home, I would say they’re definitely a Pro-Life household. Bu it never really was an issue that was discussed growing up. Saidah: Ok. So, what got you involved in the Pro-Life movement? RJ: It really was a combination of a few things that all happened simultaneously. I would probably say it was my senior year of high school. Um… I went to a private Catholic high school and we took, I signed up for the honors Philosophy class for my last year of Theology because we were required to take 4 years of Theology. And so, um, the Philosophy class really was an awesome experience, it was like a small class of just some of the more academically advanced students, (Clears throat), who, it was optional, whether to take the honors Philosophy, which was a year long course or take regular Philosophy which was only a semester long and so it was only people there who wanted to be there and I had an awesome teacher and it really turned into an apologetics type course a lot. Um…And just kinda like logical arguments for why we believe the things that we believe. And that really kinda sparked my interest in just the Philosophy aspect in general and being able to defend my beliefs. Cause you know I had always been Catholic, but really learning how to, why we believe what we believe and how to defend things and during that whole process I really started to realize that Pro-Life issue, there is a few Pro-Life issues. I’m assuming that we are talking specifically about the issue of abortion. Is that, the issue with abortion is that I think that the it’s the most easily, to me it’s the most obvious position that is being an injustice in our society right now and that is the most easily defended, logically, of why we should not be able to take the life of unborn human beings. And so seeing that it could be so... effectively defended, the pro-life opinion on abortion, and that there is such injustice being done by that, really that injustice got me emotionally involved in wanting to act out, to become active in that stance. And then the other thing that happened was about the time I started dating my now fiance, who was the founder of her pro-life group at another university and was president there and really involved and so spending more time around her and at the same time realizing, ya know, really kinda starting to have it sink in what an injustice was being done by this. Those two things really combined into making me really want to devote lots of my time and energy towards this. Saidah: Ok. So your girlfriend, excuse me, fiance, is a definite person who makes you stand strong in your pro-life belief? RJ: Mmmmhmm. Yeah. Page 2 �Saidah: Ok. So, do you have any pro-life heros locally? RJ: Um... Yes. I’d say that I’m the president of Grand Valley’s students for life group but really there is a, a circle of people in our group who are all extremely active and awesome at what they do. And um, they’re all really kind of, they keep me going and I hope that I keep them going and they’re pushed to remain active in this. Ya know my fiance is probably one of my prolife heros, there is a lot of things she does, a lot of types of discrimination that she faces for holding the positions that she, ya know, for being active the way that she is. And being so... I don’t know what the word is... I guess charismatic would kinda be the word I’m looking for, and the way that she is so active and courageous in that, there’s a lot of things she does that I don’t think I’d be able to do and that’s an inspiration to me. Saidah: Ok. Do you have any national pro-life heros? RJ: Yes, um, I’ve actually had the privilege to get to know one of them personally recently. I was **six-upped** into a fellowship for students for life of America, which is the national organization. And they, as a part of that fellowship, is they set you up with like a mentor, of a national pro-life leader of your choosing. And so I’d mentioned earlier that I’m really interested, my thing I feel most passionately about is the apologetics of everything, and so I’d requested a pro-life national apologist who’s name is Scott Klusendorf as my mentor and I get, uh, through the organization they asked him if he’d be interested and he said he was, and so I’ve had the privilege of getting to spend time talking to him. Couple hours every couple weeks and so gotten to know him pretty well. He’s one of my national heros. Along with the people who help run students for life of America ‘cause I really think the students, there’s lots of national pro-life groups but I really think that the students for life group is one of the most important because our age group are the ones that have to face this type of decision the most. Both men and women I think. Saidah: Ok, could you explain a little bit more about the apologetics? I’m not really familiar with that. RJ: Like what? What the apologetic argument would be? Saidah: Yes. RJ: Ok, so you could have me talk for more that two hours on this. Saidah: Take your time! RJ: Ok, so the question that it begins with is you have to realize that the question of abortion is whether or not we can kill the unborn. Alright, but before we can ever hope to answer the question, you know, is is morally ok to kill the unborn, we have to address the question, what is the unborn. Alright, just like if you had a five year old boy walk up to you and ask can I kill this, Page 3 �you would ask ok, well what is it? If he’s got a spider then sure. If it’s his brother by the throat, that’s a problem, the answer I hope would be no. So once we realize that we have to identify what is the unborn. We can look to science to answer what it is. Alright, science doesn’t how we can, how we should treat it, ya know, we’re just looking to science to identify what the unborn are. And so I could go, I could pull out of my bag a bunch of sources for this right now but, I mean, indisputably, scientifically from the moment of conception a new human organism um, is created. It’s a, I forget the technical term right now but it’s something along the lines of reproductive genesis, that species only reproduce other species of their same species. Ya know, humans reproduce humans, chimpanzees reproduce chimpanzees, and so it’s really kinda basic biology that two gametes, two haploid cells from a women and a man come together and that forms what, the first cells, called a zygote and that is a new organism. And what species is it? It is a human species. It is a unique human organism. Alright but that doesn’t tell us how we should treat it, that just tells us what it is. And so, now that we know that it is a human organism we, I’ll assume that most people I talk to will agree, that born humans are intrinsically valuable. Ya know, that we shouldn’t kill toddlers, that it’s wrong to kill people. Alright, people generally agree with that when we’re talking about people like you or me. And so the way we address this is ok, well what’s the difference between that first unborn, ya know that first cell that is a human being, what’s the difference between that unborn human being and a born human being that would make it ok to kill the unborn human being but not ok to kill the born human being. And so if you can find one of, a difference between the two that we agree does change their intrinsic value, well then you could conclude that abortion would be ok. But so, I can identify four differences that I think sum up all the differences between an unborn human being and a born human being. And those are size, their level of development, their environment, and their degree of dependancy. Alright. And I could go through each, all four of those in depth to try to explain why those don’t change a human being’s intrinsic value. I think size and environment are the most obvious. Alright. Bigger human beings aren’t more valuable than smaller human beings. I’ve never met a person who would disagree with that. So that’s the size one. Environment, I think is also pretty easy. Ya know, if I’m standing here I’m the same worth as if I were standing over there. Ya know, we don’t generally believe that your location changes how much you’re worth. And the other two differences are the level of development and their degree of dependency. Now these two you’ll sometimes ya know, have some people dispute these. I think the level of development is... pretty, you can get people to understand that that does not change your value when you, because where, we change in our level of development our entire lives. Ya know, five year old girls are much less developed than eighteen year old women. Eighteen year old women have a fully developed reproductive system, they have a more developed brain, they’ve developed life experiences, where as the five year old girls doesn’t have any of these things. Yet we all agree that the five year old is of the same intrinsic value of the eighteen year old. It’s just as bad killing the five year old as it Page 4 �would be killing the eighteen year old. So I, using examples like that I think that we can conclude that the level of development doesn’t change the value of a human being. And then the last difference is the degree of dependency. Now this one you probably will spend the most time discussing with people if you’re talking about the apologetics. People will, most pro-choice people will cling onto this and say the, how much a human being is dependent on other human beings does change their value. I would disagree and I think I can provide examples why. Because, you could use an example of like an infant. An infant is dependent on their parents for just about, as much as an unborn human being. An unborn human being fetus, if you removed all of it’s dependency on it’s parents, it would die. If you removed an infant from all their dependency on their parents, it would die. If parents neglect to feed their infant child, they’ll get convicted of murder or the equivalent thereof. And so if we believe that’s wrong to kill an infant, well then, and it’s wrong to kill a ten year old and the difference between those two are the dependency on their parents, well then I think we can conclude that the dependency doesn’t change how much they’re worth. And also, since this dependency one is usually harder for a lot of people to agree on, I also like to use the example of we’re all dependent on each other on some level. Maybe it’s not the same exact amount, but none of us are perfectly independent. Ya know, just by the nature of the types of beings that we are, we’re social creatures, we’re dependent on each other. And we’re all dependent on each other in different amounts. And so if we were to dictate that our dependency on each other changes our value none of us would be equal because of that fact that we all depend on each other in different amounts and so then we can conclude that you can’t consistently hold a view of human equality if our dependency on each other changes how much we’re worth. And so since most people at least in our country agree that people are equal, I think you can point out that you can’t consistently hold that view if you’re going to say depending on other human beings changes how much you’re worth. And so with those four differences pretty much every objection that people bring up about the differences between an embryo, or a fetus, and a toddler fall into one of those four categories and I think you can show that none of those things change how much a human being is worth. So that’s a kind of quick version for me anyways. Saidah: So how has being pro-life shaped or changed your life? RJ: Um.... a lot of the relationships I have, a lot of the friends that I have, through the pro-life activism that I’ve done, like Lauren here, it’s really gotten, it’s helped me become even firmer in some of my beliefs outside the pro-life issue too, just because you know, I’ve been in debates and things, on abortion and so um, I mean anybody who knows me really well knows that I don’t like to do things unless I know I can succeed at the them , it’s almost a problem that I have, that I don’t like taking risks, so in order to go into a debate, you know when you go into a debate you’re risking a lot, you can be embarrassed, people laugh at you, um, you could fumble over your words, you might just kinda forget what you wanted to say, it’s like I know I had a Page 5 �rebuttal to this, I just can’t think of how to put it together right now! You’re risking a lot, so when I’m like preparing to go into a debate or something, I was in a debate a couple weeks ago and I spent like weeks and hours a day ahead of time going over my stuff, making sure I have all my facts straight, especially when you’re going into a debate arguing the side that is politically incorrect. ‘Cause if you’re going to argue something that’s politically incorrect in front of, ya know, over a hundred people, you better have your stuff together otherwise you’re in trouble. Um, and so just having that almost tediousness of wanting to make sure I have my, that my logic is founded well and that I know how to respond to objections to things, um, having that type of focus on one issue really kinda broadens into my other issues too, like my belief in God, would be an example of one of the biggest ones obviously. Um, and I want to make sure that I understand, ya know, why I believe this and to be able to conclude that it’s not crazy for me to hold this belief, that I have reasons why and that it makes, that it’s better reasons than the counter argument. And so it’s really helped me with that and being founded in all of my beliefs. Saidah: All right, and I know we kinda talked about a little bit about abortion. So, could you give us like just a general overview of what you know about abortion. RJ: Well there is medically two types of abortions, a spontaneous abortion and a induced abortion. Spontaneous abortions obviously you can’t really do much about, they’re spontaneous, nature does ‘em. Ya know, that’s nature doing it. Saidah: Is that also called a miscarriage? RJ: Yes. There’s been some, uh, dispute recently amongst the medical community, some people really want it to, officially change the term from spontaneous abortion to miscarriage because of the bad connotation that comes along with the word abortion now. With, so miscarriage versus abortion, sort of the same thing. One happens spontaneously uh the other one is you’re doing it on purpose. Um, it removes an unborn human being from it’s mother’s womb, except most of the time it really does more that just remove it. People often times like to think, ya know, it’s just like removing life support, but most abortions are done through suction, which tears apart the unborn human being. Or chemicals which burn it, basically dissolve it, and so I mean there are some cases where it is kinda more like simply removing, but the majority are done where it’s more really actively killing and um, so I mean like, the analogy that I have that I think makes a lot of sense, it’s a little bit gruesome but people like to think that it’s like removing life support but its more like removing life support by first shooting the person in the head. Um, really. If you’re going back to this, that argument that human beings are the same, it’s not merely removing life support. It’s actually killing them and then removing them. Which I think is a significant difference. But so, uh, does that answer the question? Saidah: Yeah, definitely. Could you kinda talk about how abortion affects women from what you read and learned in your life? Page 6 �RJ: M hmmm. I know that um having an abortion, this has kinda become a controversial statement, that having an abortion increases your risk of breast cancer. Which to the best of my knowledge, best of my medical knowledge, is true. I’ve tried to become educated on both sides, some scientists and people say that there really isn’t any connection btw the two where as scientists on the pro life side have tried to explain that having an abortion does increase your risk of breast cancer. To the best of my knowledge that’s true. Other side effects is that it increases your risk of having spontaneous abortions in the future, which I think makes a lot of sense. Post abortive stress syndrome is another one that, it’s another thing that’s disputed. It’s not recognized by some organizations. It is recognized by some other organizations. I mean, I know personally I’ve meet women that have had abortions and suffer from the guilt of what they’ve done and that never really seems to go away. Ya know, I’m not going to say that’s going to happen to everybody who has an abortion, I’m sure there are people that have abortions who don’t feel that way afterwards, whether or not you feel that way, I don’t think changes what an abortion is and what it does. So when I’m discussing with people why I believe in that abortion is wrong, that’s not necessarily something that I would bring up because,ya know, I think as a **(inaudible)** it’d be a reason not to, but it doesn’t really come into play when you’re talking about why abortion is wrong. But, I mean, these are a few of the negative side effects, I’m sure there are some women who have abortions, don’t have any side effects but I know there are women who have abortions that do suffer from a lot of side effects. So. Saidah: Ok. Do you see an end to legal abortion? RJ: Like do I perceive one in the future? Saidah: Mmmhmm. RJ: Yes. I believe it’s possible. I wouldn’t be doing this if I didn’t think it were possible. It’s become very close, and ya know, we’ve come very close to it in the past. I mean the real reason of why I don’t think abortion is illegal already is because of the fractions within the pro life movement. If all the organizations that are pro life would all come to agreement and stop vying for kinda like popularity or ownership of the issue and just be able to submit it, ya know like this isn’t about me personally getting acknowledged for anything, I just want to help end this. I mean abortion would have been outlawed like in the eighties, there had been pro life majorities in congress enough for an amendment because at this point that’s basically what it would take. It would take either a judicial review of Roe V. Wade or it would take a constitutional amendment in order to outlaw abortion. If we went the judicial route, or were able to get the judicial route and throw out Roe V. Wade then they would go back to, then it would be a state’s issue on whether or not abortion would be legal. Where as if you went the amendment route, then it would be nationally outlawed. But yes, I think it’s possible. Lauren: Do you see it in your lifetime? Page 7 �RJ: Uh, Yes. I believe it’s possible. But uh, if someone came here in a time machine and told me it’s not going to be in my lifetime I would be any less active. I had some people give the analogy of the abolitionist movement. That push to outlaw slavery. In that it’s kinda like passing on a candle from generation to generation. If any generation down the line drops the ball, and doesn’t pass it on to the next generation, then we’d still have slavery. So I mean whether or not abortion is outlawed in my lifetime, does not change my motive to be pro life and to be actively pro life but obviously that’s the goal. Saidah: Alright. So what do you think women can learn from the pro life struggle? RJ: Um...There...I mean as a man, there’s, I’ve, I can’t help but notice that there’s this... I guess you’d call it a stereotype from the pro choice side, that tries to paint all pro life men as trying to control women. I never quite understood that because I’m not sure what I would gain from it. I mean, I’ve honestly sat down and tried to think, ok what would personally be in this for me by changing this. The only thing I can honestly think of would be that someday down the road when i’m working, not in school any more and my supervisor of boss was a women who becomes pregnant and would otherwise have had an abortion but if abortion were illegal could not and then had to go on maternity leave and then I would maybe have a chance to take their supervisor job or something like that. I mean, other than that I honestly can’t think of anything that I would personally gain from outlawing abortion and frankly I think that’s kinda far fetched and maybe this is me being prideful but IF I wanted to control women i’m pretty sure that I could do something that would be better at controlling women than that, (Chuckling from interviewers) than you know, putting in hours, ya know, into this every week during my college education. I just don’t, that’s the one thing I guess if I could, like send a message for women to learn I guess, it’s just that pro life men aren’t trying to control you. It’s really just because I believe all human life is valuable. But other than that just that, um, what women can learn from the pro life struggle...it’d just be that, I mean one of the most common reasons women cite for having an abortion is that they feel like they have no other choice. Which I think is kinda ironic. And I can see that, ya know, that women are pressured by their boyfriends, by their husbands, by their families, especially young women, teenagers pressured by their families. And I think that something that I’d like them to learn from the pro life struggle is that, ya know, we’re here because we want to support you. We want to support your family. Ya know, when pro life people are, ya know, protests are outside abortion clinics, it’s not to condemn you it’s to show you that, ya know, we support your other option, as to have your child, we want to support you in that way. Saidah: Ok, so if you or a friend was faced with a crisis pregnancy what would your advice be? RJ: Luckily I’ve really only been faced with this situation once and my friend chose to have her child. And I’ll be the first to admit that this probably isn’t my forte, this isn’t what I feel that I’m Page 8 �great at, just kinda general of giving advice, I don’t think I’m the greatest at giving advice. And because it’s much different there because ya know I’ve pointed out I’m really into the apologetics thing, ya know where as when somebody’s actually faced with the situation that’s usually not what you want to do. (chuckles) Is,ya know, provide out logical arguments and things like that because that’s not what it is about anymore, it’s an emotional issue at that point. I think the apologetics stuff I much more suited for an academic level, like debate, conversing amongst people who don’t really have any personal stake in the issue at that point when they’re discussing it, where as when there’s somebody actually facing the crisis of pregnancy, it becomes much more personal and much more emotional and that’s really when, just kinda like emotional issues in general, it’s more important just to be there for that person and support them. So I guess if I had a friend who was faced with that situation I would tell them that I care about them no matter what they do, that their decision doesn’t change their worth, that they’re still a valuable person regardless of what they do but that I do believe that abortion is wrong and that if you’re willing to listen to why, I would be happy to explain to them why I believe it’s wrong. I’d be sure from a medical perspective to point out that, just how, it’s really, like I said, it’s basic biology but people just kinda seem to, it’s almost like a willful negligence or willful ignorance of the facts. Just explain like, ok, scientifically this is a human being who by definition is your, I mean you can use the word offspring, it’s your child, just scientifically say like I know that you believe in that people are valuable , I believe people are valuable and I believe that your unborn child is a person and that I would encourage you to give your child life and i’d love to be willing to support you in making that decision and maybe and find other people who have the means to support them in a more concrete way, ya know, financially or something like that. Lauren: Pro life groups and I know students for life of Grand Valley has been quoted saying “Eliminate the crisis, not the pregnancy.” Could you give some examples of places in western Michigan that you’re aware of that can help women in a crisis pregnancy? Saidah: I mean, the first one that I know of, because we work closely with them is Lakeshore Pregnancy center. Which is right outside, right off Grand Valley campus. Speaking as a catholic, I know that most catholic churches, if somebody went to them and said hey I’m facing this tough situation that they’d have people who’d be more that wiling to help and show support. I mean, outside that just basically any pro life group. In the pro life movement there’s kinda two sects. This isn’t the division that I was talking about before, there’s just kinda two groups that focus on two different aspects. There’s the crisis pregnancy centers which focus on that more personal, emotional aspect I was talking about and those are the groups that I would refer to a friend who was in this situation. And so the local one is the Lakeshore pregnancy center. And then the other group within the pro life movement is the more right to life groups. Which are more about the activism, to people who aren’t necessarily facing this right now but just Page 9 �showing them what abortion is and why we should be against it. That’s more about, along the APOLOGETICS type line, the more, like the legal aspect and things like that, where as the crisis pregnancy centers are the ones who personally work with women who are, and families really, who are faced with this situation. And so those are the types of groups that I would refer people to. Does that answer the question? Saidah: Yes. Yes it does. So we know your involved with students for life, how long have you worked with this organization? RJ: Students for life of Grand Valley, two years, a year and a half now. Well I guess sort of, if we’re talking about students for life in general, I started in high school. ‘Cause I went to a catholic high school and we had group of students who were pro life. We didn’t officially have a group then, I think at my high school they’ve now started an official group but I mean students for life of America, the national organization, a year and a half. Saidah: Alright. So could you give us some of the goals and purposes of this group? RJ: Well, I mean the technical goal, as stated in our constitution is to provide an outlet for students to express the belief that abortion is morally, ethical and socially wrong. To promote values of life that value human life from conception to natural death. So those are kinda like a big picture goals. Some of the more smaller, concrete goals would be, like what we do is we every year have an event to for, like a fundraiser for the local crisis pregnancy center that I was talking about a second ago. We go to the national march for life every January on the anniversary of Roe V. Wade to be active in demonstrating ya know that’s more along the legal lines of protesting, saying that we as a, we as individuals of this country don’t believe that we should be allowing this to happen. We also do things like participate in 40 days for life. Which is a nationally organized event but the way we get involved is through locally, spending time and prayer outside of the local abortion clinic. We try to initiate dialogues between students on this issue, we try to initiate dialogue between our group and the pro choice group on campus, not always successful, but we always try to initiate those conversations. Saidah: Is students for life a religious group? RJ: Students for life is NOT a religious group. While most people in are group are, you could say religious, I don’t really like the word religion in general kind of. I don’t believe in a religion, I believe in the truth. But um, (chuckles) but no, we are not a religious group. We can fully and completely make our case without any sort of religion at all. I think that might be seen in the apologetic argument I put forward earlier, in that faith, religion wasn’t brought into that at all. We simply start with the assumption that we all agree that we shouldn’t kill people, that we shouldn’t kill born human beings so that’s not necessarily a religious claim, that’s kinda just a Page 10 �common agreement amongst people, and then we build our argument from there using science and philosophy. And logic. Saidah: Ok, so what as a student for life organization done in the community to help spread the pro life message? RJ: We regularly bring in speakers, hold events on campus. Typically every year we have at least one cemetery of innocence, which it’s what we call our demonstration where we will set up a certain number, like kinda reserve a space of grass outdoors and we’ll set up a certain number of crosses usually, and then have signs that say ya know, each cross represents blank amount of human beings aborted every day or every year, type thing. To kinda demonstrate the number of abortions that take place and how many human lives are being taken. So that’s one of the things we do to try to publicly get the pro life message out. In addition to the speakers, we do tabling. And a lot of those events are part of what we call fire and ice week. Just kinda like a co-hosted event with our pro life group and the pro choice group on campus. Originally the idea was that both groups would cosponsor each others events to like, student government, to maybe get like more funding for each group’s individual events. And then it kinda becomes like an abortion awareness week where both groups everyday of the week hold extra, like an event every day to advocate their cause. When this first was initiated here on Grand Valley’s campus, it ended with a debate at the end of the week between the two groups. That was the original idea it’s kind of changed since then, so that’s when we do things like the cemetery of innocence, we bring in lots of speakers and a couple other things like we’ll bring in a speaker who has a personal testimony on abortion maybe that they received or that they had type thing. We’ll bring like a pro-life obstetrician slash gynecologist who will speak on medical aspects. So we do a lot of those events during what we call the fire and ice week. But we periodically have these type of events all year round. Saidah: Could you describe an experience that caused you to be pro-life? RJ: You know really, I haven’t had, I have been blessed to not have been personally connected to that many people facing that type of situation to my knowledge anyways. Really, the most personal experience would be the two things I said in the beginnings. One, my philosophy class my senior year of high school. And in particular the personal relationship I had with the teacher, and then my relationship with my fiancee. Saidah: Could you, you had mentioned previously that you had done some type of prayer at an abortion clinic. Were there any experiences within those sessions that you came face to face with talking to a woman facing an abortion and if so how did that affect you? RJ: Yeah, when I’ve spent time praying slashing protesting I guess you could call it at the clinics I personally haven’t really spoken to any of the women going in or coming out. And a big part of Page 11 �the that is just tactically being with other people who are there for the same reason and women who are faced with the situation probably don’t want to be speaking to some stranger college guy. You know, if I was faced with the situation where a woman was going to get an abortion and I was the only one there, like it was a friend of mine, yes I would initiate talk to them about this, try to be compassionate. But you know when I’m there with a group of people, like I’ve done this with my fiancee before. She will try to initiate conversation with the couples, with the women going in and out. She has started communication with people like this. So personally I have not. I’ve seen it happen, i’ve seen couples come out of the clinic because you know sometimes it’s just because me and the group of people were there, just because we were there that we were showing support basically, they changed their minds, they didn’t get an abortion just because they saw people there. And then other times I’ve seen it happen because people have gone to them and talked to them and ya know, kinda been there for them. I think it means a lot to people when they realize that people, when the pro life people are outside the clinic because they care, I think when they realize that, they maybe even if they think we’re wrong in what we believe, just when they realize that we’re there because we care, I think that means a lot regardless of whether or not you think it’s a human being that’s being killed or not. Just to see that somebody feels so strongly about that that they want to be there to show compassion for you. I think that means a lot to people. Saidah: Ok so are there any particular experiences that you’ve had with the pro life movement that have been monuments to you or that has really shaped and defined your belief? Lauren: That’s a good question. RJ: Yeah. The most powerful experience I think I’ve had was the time, the first time I was at the clinic. The one I’ve been at the most is near Flint, Michigan which is where my fiance’s from. And I was with there with her and her student’s for life group and some people from the local right to life group and that clinic, the time that they do abortions are early Saturday morning. And the reason they do this is to discourage people from coming out and being there. And so when I’ve gone with them before it’s kinda gruesome because you literally got to get up at like six o’clock in the morning on Saturday to go out there because they do their abortions between seven a.m. and ten a.m. on Saturday morning. And so sometimes it’s a little gruesome, you usually don’t want, not gruesome but grueling is the word I’m looking for. Ya know, you don’t want to, you want to sleep in. But I’ve dragged myself out there with them a couple times and the first time that we had a couple come out of the clinic and, we hadn’t talked to them beforehand, we had had the people try to talk to them beforehand but they had ignored us and just gone to the clinic and twenty minutes later came out and we didn’t know what was going on, they just went to their car but then they pulled around by us and asked, hey do you have any information, we usually have flyers with information about pregnancy support group flyer type things, came around and asked do you have any information that we could take, and we Page 12 �were like Yeah! Sure! We were excited because we don’t always get people come up and be willing to talk to us. And we asked do you know anybody who’s faced with an abortion and the women was like yeah, I was supposed to have one today. And they said, we’re not having one anymore, and they both just looked so happy and it was the day before mother’s day which was really cool. Saidah: Oh wow. RJ: And honestly they looked, and this isn’t me just being biased, they looked happy. They were both smiling. That was probably the coolest...and everybody, our group was there, there was probably like six to eight of us that were there, we were all so excited. And then my fiance Brianna started crying because she cries whenever she’s happy, that was pretty, that was a powerful, emotional experience that kinda keeps me going sometimes when I don’t, when I’d rather put more effort into something for myself. That keeps me going with giving up that extra time and effort for those couples that are faced with those decisions and those lives that are in the balance. Saidah: Have you had any personal experience like those on campus when you’re having any type of events? RJ: Not from people who were facing this decision or had faced this decision but I have had people come up to me who are just really encouraged to see such support on our campus for the pro life movement. None of them were like, really impacting, they were always encouraging and really appreciated but not like that other experience I was talking about. Those are kinda, ya know, because they mean so much to you they are rare. They wouldn’t mean as much to you if they were common I don’t think. Saidah: That’s true. So have you ever had any type of repeat type experiences like that? Have you ever had any really bad experiences with the abortion clinics? RJ: Uh, yes. (All laugh) I kinda like the bad experiences stuff sometimes. Because I, one of the experiences, it was just like a month or two ago when we were doing 40 days for life we had a few people from our group go, and there’s this guy who was walking towards us to go past us on the sidewalk and he looked like a college aged guy, and so there were probably three or four of us kinda lined up, side to side, in front of the building. And he walked by and as he passed each of us, he turned, about this far from our heads and, what did he say?... He said something pretty vulgar. He had the F word in there and he said like, you’re a f’ing idiot or something like that to each of us as he walked by and just kept walking. Oh and then when he got to me he changed it up a little bit, he said that to like the other three people and then he got to me and he changed it up and threw the f word in there twice or something. To me it’s just so Page 13 �outrageous, I don’t even get angry, I just kinda laugh and, I mean, to be honest, I think i’d rather have everybody respond that way then to have everybody just walk by. Saidah: Mmmhmm. It lets you know that they’re paying attention. RJ: Right. To know that people notice. I don’t know, it doesn’t bother ME if people say that. Doesn’t change the facts, doesn’t change what I think is true. You know, I’m not doing this because I think it’s going to make me popular. So that’s definitely not a factor, when people say negative things toward me. I’m just doing this because I’m following what I honestly believe is true, ya know. I mean, I’m open to anybody showing me reasons and evidence for why what I believe is true isn’t true but until that happens i’m going to follow it. And so when I have those negative experiences it doesn’t really discourage me at all, it kinda Encourages me, to notice that people are noticing and that we’re getting to the people that disagree with us. So. (chuckles) Saidah: So was there, besides that one, any other moments that you had in your life that you remember being treated differently for for your pro life stance? RJ: Oh yeah. I like it when we table. ‘Cause I think one of the things that, when we table, obviously like I said earlier we’re a politically incorrect group basically. Saidah: Could you describe real quick what tabling is? RJ: Ok. Tabling is an event, or is an activity that all student organizations on our campus and on most campuses can do. And they just reserve a time in a big, social building, for us it’s Kirkoff, where you just kinda get a table off to the side of the hallway and you can set up posters and everything for your cause and it’s and opportunity for anybody who sees your group, says hey I might be interested in getting involved with that group, to come over and talk to a couple of people from the group about what they do, what that person would do to get involved, that type of thing. That’s something that we do periodically. Usually once every couple weeks, just for a few hours. Usually it’d be like in the University student union building type thing. Kirkoff is basically Grand Valley’s equivalent. As to being treated differently, when we table we have this box of fetal development models, of lifelike, to scale kinda rubbery models of the development of a fetus every few weeks. And so part of our posters and stuff we put on our table when we table, we have these out there, sitting out and we get so many weird looks. (laughs) Because they basically look like little naked babies. Especially when we’ll just schedule people to table from our group, take like one hour shifts type of thing, and every now and again it’ll end up with just, we usually try to have two people at a table at a time, every now and again we’ll end up having two guys at the table and whenever we have to guys at the table is the best. (chuckles) ‘Cause so many people give us weird looks and i’ve heard people, i’ve seen like a couple girls walk by and one whispers to the other, it’s always a couple of guys. Sometimes it Page 14 �makes me feel a little, it doesn’t make me feel embarrassed or anything because it’s not like I think that people are going to judge me differently by, it’s only fear that it is going to, that people are going to take it as reinforcement of that stereotype that I was talking about earlier of men trying to control women. That’s really my only apprehension when that happens because I honestly, I can say personally that’s not true for me, I guess I can’t speak for the personal attentions of every pro life man out there but it’s not the reason that men are pro life. So, ya know, people see what they want to see though, if somebody’s already pro choice and they think, ya know, they’re telling themselves that and then they see two guys at the pro life table sometimes I worry that we’re just reinforcing that but that’s the time that I’m definitely treated differently. Saidah: Alright, are there any other experiences that stick out in your mind that you’ve had with the pro life movement? Were they good, bad, indifferent? RJ: I mean there’s a lot of frustrating examples. Because, I mean... Saidah: Tell us about ‘em! (chuckles) RJ: Alright, well this kinda goes along with how people tend, there’s another stereotype that all pro life people are just religious nuts. Ya know, that pro life people are pro life because their bible tells them to be, is a stereotype that is completely untrue. Crap, I kinda forget where I was going with this. (chuckles) For example we, I was in a debate a few weeks ago on another university’s campus, on my fiance’s campus and when they met with the pro choice group, it wasn’t purely a pro choice group, but it was like a secular students for free thought group who were going to be arguing the pro choice side.When they met to get together to just kinda discuss how they were going to set up the debate and everything, somewhere amongst the conversations, I wasn’t there, but I was told that somewhere amongst the conversation it got mentioned that we weren’t going to be talking about religion and the other group was shocked, like they couldn’t understand, like what? the pro choice group isn’t arguing about a religion? And they were like, no, we use science and philosophy and they were like, they couldn’t understand that. That’s a time when it’s a little bit frustrating but at the same time satisfying because you’re breaking stereotypes but, I remember where I was going with this originally though, is that there’s this idea amongst pro choice people that I’ve experienced, you know, I’m not going to claim to know what all pro choice people think but there definitely is this general consensus that being pro choice is kinda like the more enlightened, I guess you could say, this is really in the media, that being pro choice is the enlightened, tolerant individual who, and is kinda anti-religion, because there is this idea that being pro life IS religious, and so it’s kinda this idea that it’s the anti-religious, enlightened position that fights the power of the church or something. But the people who tell themselves that, that they’re somehow being kind of rebellious and strong by being pro choice is completely false. There’s nothing more anti- Page 15 �establishment then being pro life. I mean if you want to fight the establishment join the pro life cause. Ya know, especially in the universities and just in the government and the policies it’s all directed towards why abortion should be ok. If you want to have something to be antiestablishment it should be pro life. And so the most obvious example that I’ve had of this personally is right now I’m taking a human genetics course and there was a section basically on genetic and chromosomal abnormalities. And so examples of this would be like down syndrome. Down syndrome is caused by an individual having three copies of the chromosome 21. You’re only supposed to have two. And so during the section we were supposed to study the causes of down syndrome and a part of this was how to detect down syndrome and so it’s common practice for many doctors, for many women that are pregnant, is that they’ll test the fetus before it’s born to see if it has down syndrome. And so, I mean, that in and of itself, testing to see if your unborn child has down syndrome is’t necessarily bad. If you’re doing it with the intention of, ok, if it does I’m gunna kill it, that’s a problem. But there could be legitimate causes, you know, if anything, you just want to know, so that you can prepare so that when it’s time to give birth you’re not all of a sudden shocked to find out that your newborn child has down syndrome, that’s understandable, to be mentally prepared for that. But so a part of this in my genetics course was that we’d have like a sample question that says, ya know, it’s supposed to be like a clinically orientated question, where it’s like, ok, say you’re the doctor and a women comes to you and she’s two months pregnant and she has, say an uncle with down syndrome and she has a two year old son already who has down syndrome. And so what you’re supposed to answer is what should you do as the doctor about this. And so it was a multiple choice question and one of the possible choices for answering was order an immediate induced abortion. And that really upset me. There were a few questions like that on the worksheet that we had. Granted it wasn’t the right answer that you were supposed to get but it was still there. The right answer was to basically, to test to see if it has down syndrome and then that’s almost implying oftentimes that, ya know, well if it does we shouldn’t let it live. So I mean that’s just one of my personal examples of how being pro life is anti-establishment. Other frustrating circumstances... there’s a lot of circumstances like that one I said about the being protesting at the clinic. I mean, I’m usually surprised if we’re there and we don’t have at least one car drive by and honk at us, in a bad way.There’s good honks and there’s bad honks and you start to, after you do it a couple times you figure out the difference. Usually good honks are one or two quick ones, bad honks are “EEEEEEENNNNNHHHHHH” (makes obnoxious honking noise) as they drive by and sometimes they’ll like slow down to like ten miles per hour as they go by so that they can honk at you longer. It’s happened. (Interviewers chuckling) Other frustrating ones are, I’ve had frustrating circumstances when I’ve got on to this topic with like some of my roommates, some of my closer friends that I’ve gotten to know through college. It’s just frustrating because to me it seems so straightforward, but I know that’s because I’ve spent so much time going over why I believe this. And so to me it seems straightforward but, then Page 16 �when other people, like when I say two gametes form a zygote, that’s a new human being, to me that’s a scientific fact. When people are like, ya know, I don’t know if that’s true, I’m like ugh! When we live in a society that’s so dominated by the bias of scientific materialism, basically the belief that science rules all, and yet the one or two times, the one time when that is in our favor people are questionable about it. (chuckles) To me, being a more kinda intellectual, science, philosophy, apologetics orientated guy that that’s really frustrating to me. Saidah: So could you give us some historical events that have happened in your lifetime regarding the pro life movement? RJ: When you say historical events, you mean like nationally historical or like historical in my past? Saidah: Both. The progressions that the pro life movement has made. RJ: Well, I don’t, I’m probably not the best person to talk about that because I’ve only really been active for a few years. Ya know a big part of it takes place on the political stage, since that’s how legal action gets done. And I’ve really only started to follow politics or anything for like maybe a year or so. Now I feel like I follow stuff pretty regularly, like in the news and politically and stuff. But, I mean I know that just a few weeks ago like in the state of Mississippi there was a proposal that they called the personhood amendment or something like that, that would establish in Mississippi’s state constitution that personhood begins at conception, basically saying that all human beings are persons. Because that’s basically what the conversation becomes about is human being versus person, you have to start drawing a line in between there when you, when everybody agrees on the scientific fact that a zygote is a new, unique, human organism. Scientifically the fact is that is a human organism that belongs to the human species. And so the pro choice groups have to start coming up with reasons why that’s a human but why it’s not a person when they start drawing this line between being human and being a person. Which I think prior to this or if you were to ask, like a child who tends to have a simplistic view of things, I think it’s kinda more common sense to say that well that all people are people, all humans are people. So basically what this Mississippian amendment tried to do a few weeks ago was define that saying personhood begins when the human begins. And so this was faced with a lot of controversy and the group who organized this legislation wasn’t actually the politicians, it was one of the right to life groups I talked about earlier who focus on the legal aspects. They purposely went to Mississippi into this because Mississippi is one of the most conservative states. And they tried to push this into their constitution so that could defend, so that they could basically try to outlaw abortion within their state. They were purposely doing this because they knew it would be in contradiction to Roe V. Wade. And so their goal was to pass this law, put it into effect and people will challenge it and then their hope was that it would appeal up to the supreme court and then that would prompt a review of Roe V. Wade Page 17 �was their goal basically by trying to pass this amendment in Mississippi. And so I had been really hoping that that would succeed, it did not succeed. Not for reasons because people thought that unborn human beings should not be valuable, it was because, from what I understand, because people were afraid of how it would affect issues of in vitro fertilization, how it would affect some forms of birth control , because some forms of birth control do have the intention of not allowing an embryo to implant in the womb, which would result in the death of a human being. Ya know, that’s a fact. Whether or not the human being is valuable gets back to the issue of, well, personhood. And so that was the concerns that I heard cited most among the people who were against that Mississippi amendment. That could have been a very historical event. My understanding is that they are going to try again, possibly word the amendment differently so that those concerns won’t apply but that would still have the same effect basically. I feel like there was something else recently... Oh, I know Michigan recently outlawed partial birth abortions, which I think is a very good thing. It’s not enough, but it’s a very good thing. Saidah: Sorry to interrupt. What’s partial abortion? RJ: Partial birth abortion is, I honestly can’t believe anybody thinks this is ok, partial birth abortion is treading the line of what is legal and what is not legal. Legally, a human is born when the head is removed from it’s mother’s body. The head, specifically. Ok, so partial birth abortion is a late term abortion, meaning that it’s done like eight. nine, seven weeks into the pregnancy. And they induce labor, remove the child from the womb, they remove the legs, the torso, the arms, everything except for the head. So they literally hold the baby so that only it’s head is still inside it’s mother and then they’ll take scissors and put it into the child’s neck and pierce it and then put a suction into that incision and literally suck out it’s brain. To kill it. Because it’s not legally protected until the head is removed. So they remove everything except for the head and then they kill it. This happens. In our country. Saidah: Seems more gruesome than just regular abortion. RJ: Yes. And it was legal in the state of Michigan up until a couple weeks ago. It’s legal but there has to be certain circumstances of risk of health to the mother, not necessarily certain death but just risks to their health. And then when they define health, they use the United Nations definition of health which includes like economy and proper food and things like that. So it’s not necessarily a risk to their life, it’s a risk to their health. So like if I have this child i’ll have to spend money on it so I won’t be able to buy proper nutrition, ya know, I won’t be able to buy food that is as nutritious as the food that I have right now so therefore having this child is a risk to my health. So I could decide if I were a women and eight months pregnant that I, and there are doctors who are so pro choice that they’ll say ok, just come up with any reason and I’ll do this for you, ‘cause I don’t really think that there should be any rules against this so just come up with some excuse and I’ll be ok with it. And there are doctors who will preform this. There Page 18 �have been many documented cases, the most recent one was in Philadelphia, with an abortion doctor who , sometimes this partial birth abortion procedure goes wrong where the baby might be too slippery or the head is too small and so they’re trying to remove it up to the head but then it all comes out. And so now, legally, it’s a person. Now it’s protected but they wanted to kill it so nobody’s watching so they’ll just kill it anyway, after it’s been born and nobody knows the difference. And so there’s been documented cases of people getting caught doing this and they get charged with murder. Where as if they did it thirty seconds earlier with the head still inside the mother, then it’s ok. This is still legal in most places in the United States. There’s been push back, they tried to ban it nationally and they actually got it passed I believe, during Bill Clinton’s turn as president but he vetoed it I think. I don’t, i’m not sure if that’s correct, that’s what I think happened. So that’s partial birth abortion, it’s now banned in Michigan, thank god. And the thing about this is, the most common excuse for doing that basically is that usually when you’re delivering you want to remove the head first because the head is usually the largest and so if it doesn’t fit basically there’s not an immediate, urgent problem, you can do other things to try to get it to fit. So if you, but it can cause problems for the mother, it can be a risk. And so they’ll say ya know, well the head might be a little too big so this might be a risk, and so then that’s an excuse to do this. Saidah: Alright. Are there any articles, books, films or speeches that made your pro life stance even stronger? RJ: There’s one book that I read recently, by my mentor who I mentioned earlier, his book, he’s an author, called the case for life. Which basically kind of outlines that same apologetic thing that I was talking about earlier like the size of the home environment, degree of dependency type thing. He didn’t coin that, that’s not his, he cites it for who came up with that way of presenting the argument. That book was very good. It also touched on embryonic stem cell research because embryonic stem cell research kills a human being in the embryo stage of development. And that same book kind of addresses, preemptively addresses a lot of pro choice arguments. I mean, that’s the best way to prepare for trying to persuade somebody is to think about your case, think about how people might object to that and then be prepared to address their objections. You gotta be able to play both sides in order, I think, to fully understand an issue. And then that book’s called The case for life. Read that one recently, really liked that one. That’s probably the only book I think I’ve ever read that is specifically about pro life issues. Saidah: Ok. So what is your stance on pro life and rape victims? RJ: In cases of rape, I do not, it does not change what an abortion is. If who I’m talking to accepts, if my roommate is correct that an unborn human being is of the same value and worth as a born human being then it’s basically like saying the mother was abused in this terrible way Page 19 �and therefore we’re going to kill a third party person in order to relieve her suffering. I don’t think that’s ok. People, ya know, will put it as it’s killing the child for the mistakes of the father. I think that is a true explanation of what you’re doing, I think, if you’re actually trying to explain that to somebody you need to go a little bit more in depth than that. I mean, it’s obviously a terrible situation but it still doesn’t make killing a human being ok. There are very rare cases where killing a human being is ok. I’m not saying that it’s completely impossible. Sometimes it is the lesser of two evils. But I don’t think thats proper justification for killing a human being. Obviously those women need and deserve all of our support, ya know I’m not going to say tough luck, ya know that’s obviously not the response that I give. It’s a gracious no I still don’t think it’s ok, I want to help you type of response. Saidah: And students for life would throw out the option of adoption and things of that nature as well correct? RJ: Yeah, that’s always, I guess I probably should have stated that because that’s always just and assumption in my mind that adoption is always an option. Personally, I’ve been affected by the option of adoption (chuckles) heh, that rhymes, I have a little two year old cousin who was recently adopted into our family. He’s going to be the ring bearer in my wedding next summer. I love him and adoption really is beautiful. So it’s, if you were raped and conceived, it doesn’t mean that you’re being condemned to being responsible for another human being for the rest of your life, ya know, like you would be raising a child. There’s that option to allow another couple who wants them to adopt them. And there are enough couples who want to adopt. There are often, like in the debates I’ve been in, they often cite like there are so many children here who don’t have adopting parents yet. But the main reason for that is adopting parents generally want infants and newborns , where as the children who are in foster care and not being adopted are generally more like five, six, seven, teenagers and those, at those ages there are not usually enough parents who want to adopt teenagers. But I mean for newborn infants there are many parents who want to adopt. Saidah: Alright. How do you feel about pro life when it relates to the mother’s health, whether it’s a rape victim or someone who is actively pursuing pregnancy? RJ: So you’re saying like with risk to the mother’s life right? Ok. So this is where we kinda get more into the, I was talking about earlier, sometimes there could be reasons to take the life of a human being. This kinda gets into the stage where people start to think well maybe it is. So and what, this is more kinda, my understands of the catholic church’s position on abortion, these issues. I think most people agree with them, it’s what I believe makes a lot of sense and is just. Ok so lets say that there’s a pregnancy that is developing complications that is, there is some risk of the mother dying because of it. Alright, so lets say that to the best of our medical knowledge we can say that this pregnancy has a lets say one third chance of taking the Page 20 �mother’s life. Alright, so if the pregnancy were to take the mother’s life it would then take the life of the unborn child because the child can’t survive without the mother. Right. So both the mother and the child have a one third chance of dying in this case. So we can ethically preform a procedure to try to remove the complications as long as the purpose isn’t to just directly kill the unborn human being. The solution can’t be to kill this person to save that person. We can do a procedure that has a chance of helping both of the human beings survive and so if there’s a one third chance you can preform a procedure to try and help the mother that has like up to a one third chance of resulting in the death of the unborn human being because the unborn human being already is at a one third chance of dying. And so any procedure that has the potential of helping it that still has that one third chance of resulting, ya know, might accidentally kill the unborn child hasn’t put the unborn child at any greater injustice, it’s had a, it’s been an effort to try to help both human beings survive. Saidah: Would an example of that be the new medical advances, for example in utero surgery and things of that nature? RJ: Mmmhmm. I guess I kinda jumped right off to the complicated answer. I think the simple answer is I think every effort should be made to save the mother and every effort made to save the child. I believe they are of equal intrinsic value. Because none of the differences between them change how much they’re worth. So they both, so there’s two lives here that we’re trying to save, we should do everything we can to save both of them. And so there’s a difference here between having a risk to the mother’s life and a certainty of taking the mother’s life. If there’s a certainty that the pregnancy is going to end the mother’s life, which is really more kind of a hypothetical situation, then there’s also a certainty that the unborn child is going to die as well. And so if you do a procedure that has almost a certainty of killing the unborn child but that isn’t the goal of it, like if there’s just a minute chance that the procedure may save both lives, even if there’s like a 99.9% chance that it’s going to kill the unborn human being, there’s still that .1% chance that you’re aiming for in doing this, then it would be moral to do that. Basically, it’s as long as the intention isn’t to actively kill the unborn human being then it’s an ethical procedure. Saidah: Ok. And so why do you think abortion is still legal when media and movies are always advocating having the child? Do you think the media will help the pro life cause? RJ: I think that the media does not help the pro life cause overall. Specifically like in the news media and things like that. This kinda goes for all issues that are deemed liberal. I think it’s pretty obvious that most of the media is liberally biased. That’s debatable though. Like in T.V. shows and things like that, your right in that T.V. series that have had pregnancies worked into the plot, they’ve realized that ending the pregnancy with abortion isn’t good for ratings. People don’t like that. The reason I think abortion is still legal is because, well there’s a couple different things. I think one of them, which is a kinda even bigger issue of why things are the way they Page 21 �are is a belief in subjective morality and that people, there’s this pretty dominant belief amongst like the youth in particular that there’s really no such thing as right and wrong, and that it’s up to each individual to determine what’s right and wrong. I would love to have a conversation with somebody about that by itself. That’s another one of those issues I was talking about earlier, where my focus on pro life apologetics has branched out into these other issues and this belief of subjective morality. I really like to have that conversation with people and the apologetics of that and whether or not that really is true. And this is seen in things like you shouldn’t force your beliefs on other people, is something I hear people often say. I think that’s a contradictory statement. I could go into a long schpeel about why that’s a contradictory statement but that’s a very dominant belief and so the problem here is even people who believe abortion is wrong think that it should be a personal issue to everybody. Ya know. I think that’s one of the big reasons people who, and another one of the reasons is because there’s really kind of a spectrum of where peoples believes fall. There’s people who are extremely pro choice and say all nine months of pregnancy shouldn’t have to have any reasons, you can just have an abortion for whatever you want. Versus the very pro life end which says no. You should never have an abortion, it’s never ok. And one of the problems is I think most people, I feel safe saying that most people believe that abortion out of convenience is not ok. Alright. And the fact is that most abortions are out of convenience. Convenience being like social, economical reasons. Well, like, ya know I could support this child but I’d be very poor if I did so I’d rather kill it would be a social economical reason. So most people agree that abortion out of convenience is wrong but they still hold onto well, in cases of incest, rape and threats to the mother’s life, then it’s still ok, is what, I think there’s a pretty good chunk of the American population holds that type of position. And the thing is, is that if you have that type of position you are pro life on 99% of pregnancy cases. Alright. But since they still hold onto those few exceptions they consider themselves pro choice and then therefore when it comes to like a vote or politically, they agree that we should have the choice to have an abortion. So I think one of the problems is that on this big long spectrum, people that are even on the pro life end consider, they call themselves pro choice. I think that’s one of the problems. So that, subjective morality, media bias, I’d probably say those are the three main reasons. Saidah: Ok. Does the pro life movement support or advocate abstinence? RJ: No. We don’t really take a position on abstinence versus... I don’t know, what’s contrary abstinence? Promiscuity? Promiscuity? (all chuckle) We don’t take a stance on that. I think that if we were all to come to the conclusion that having sex results in a new human being we would all take it a lot more seriously. I think it, I think that being pro choice encourages the nonabstinence only lifestyle. Because I mean if reproducing doesn’t really create another human being and you can just get rid of it if you want, well then there’s not much responsibility involved in it. Right, then the only issue becomes not getting a disease. Which I guess if you Page 22 �really, i’m not speaking from experience, but I mean I guess if you were really careful you could avoid that pretty well and so it kinda becomes more of a thing for pleasure. I don’t think it’s just a thing for pleasure. Personally I would encourage abstinence before marriage but i’m not going to argue for that as strongly as I will for the pro life cause because I believe that abortion takes the life of another human being, where as I think that if you have sex outside of marriage without the abortion part related to it, I really just think you’re kind of hurting yourself. I think in the end you’d be happier if you didn’t do that. I mean, you’re only hurting yourself so I’ll defend your right to choose to do that, where as I will NOT defend your right to choose to take the life of another human being. Saidah: Ok. So the pro life movement’s more of a let me help you with the decision you’re faced with right now, not a preventative type of measure. RJ: There are some pro life groups who probably do purposely encompass the more preventative stuff, but we don’t officially take a stand on that. Saidah: Well thank you very much R.J.. We very much appreciate it. RJ: You’re welcome. I enjoyed it. Saidah: Yes, thank you. Are there any other, you know, last minute comments you want to give us? RJ: No, nothing. (chuckles) No, not really into this. Saidah: Well thank you R.J.! END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/403d33c69c30ae5983a093494c6d0924.mp3 7f7a1eb95aedae53aec09044a8258be1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McVeigh_Raymond Title A name given to the resource Raymond McVeigh audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McVeigh, Raymond Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Miller, Saidah Biggs, Lauren Description An account of the resource Raymond McVeigh discusses his involvement with the Pro-Life movement as a Catholic. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f773b310613651471bfa67e3fe9e4189.jpg f809f91fc6fd79bc51d11acb90514530 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_X151 Title A name given to the resource RB-36D &RF-84F carrier and reconnaissance fighter Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-36D &RF-84F US carrier and reconnaissance fighter, September 1, 1953. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Military education World War, 1939-1945 Airplanes, Military--Recognition Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1953-09-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2ad13f544ebabb3ff817307751fccfac.jpg bf1bb2827a837cfb7f22e16fbc54ee1b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_x375 Title A name given to the resource RB-45C Tornado USAF reconnaissance aircraft Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-45C Tornado USAF reconnaissance aircraft, November 1, 1951. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1951 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/07b4302768faf7d8b8713d292512772c.jpg 7dec433bb6d3093fbddb62bb7ad60e7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_X387 Title A name given to the resource RB-47E Stratojet photo-recon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-47E Stratojet, US photo-recon, September 1, 1953. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1953 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af52161129e162656511ae88dbb7a486.jpg ef911098978cc695eaf97976853e603d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_386 Title A name given to the resource RB-47E Stratojet USAF photo-recon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-47E Stratojet USAF photo-recon, September 1, 1955. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1955-09-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f4860222963e8fee04c35c3081f8e40d.jpg 27f477f9f45e9cc0d8b4c404d1f64bea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_387 Title A name given to the resource RB-47E stratojet USAF photo-recon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-47E stratojet USAF photo-recon, September 1, 1955. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1955-09-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e4f9608ea012e56a6aed654a193e1f6.jpg 3e16cce8a082557f25a92dc06d5d5790 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_X386 Title A name given to the resource RB-47E Stratojet, photo-recon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-47E Stratojet, US photo-recon, September 1, 1953. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1953 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f2bbab47a0dcf76df3c528c404e24683.jpg 20f4ee48d0d39f63ea096d182658557f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_X361 Title A name given to the resource RB-66 Skywarrior recco-bomber Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-66 Skywarrior US recco-bomber, September 1, 1954. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1954 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/faa3ff7241a2136eb6944b791b644d5b.jpg 65027f9d51c5ad3afe6eb1df6cd46a5b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_X362 Title A name given to the resource RB-66 Skywarrior recco-bomber Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-66 Skywarrior US recco-bomber, September 1, 1954. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1954 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4dfe5009f9a4949f25949264366401a.jpg 6d53e5d3c9c42aeed51c74d9de92025f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_X408 Title A name given to the resource RB-66 Skywarrior recco-bomber Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource RB-66 Skywarrior US recco-bomber, September 1, 1954. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1954 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives