819 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88de78877aec361b80719fbf3c7afd24.pdf ba195740afd6b306c94331dbd4219a08 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Paul Siegel Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/7/2012 Biography and Description Paul Siegel was a precinct captain in the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign (1973-1975). He was also a member of the Inter Communal Survival Committees that moved to Chicago to concentrate their forces and work in Uptown organizing the poor at the grassroots level. Paul’s precincts bordered Young Lord areas, so he spent many hours near the Young Lords office on Wilton and Grace Streets in Lakeview. Mr. Siegel was determined to cover and win the precincts and made many friends by providing referral services and following them up. He also talked and listened to local residents for hours, learning a great deal about what was on the minds of Latinos and poor people. His office was the street of his precincts and he knew everybody’s children and pets by name. Mr. Siegel was also especially gifted at identifying and enlisting community leaders to help him get out the vote. After the Jiménez campaign, Mr. Siegel also ran for alderman of the 46th ward and nearly won. Like the Jiménez campaign, his run helped to lay important groundwork in the ward for the victory that arrived with Helen Shiller’s election in 1987. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, go ahead and start, Paul, just give your name in that and your, kinda, connection to the -- how you came from Wisconsin to here, and your connection to the Young Lords and that -PAUL SIEGEL: Okay, my name is Paul Siegel, and how I came to have a connection with the Young Lords, well, it was, I guess you could say, via the route of Wisconsin in part. So I was in Madison, part of the student movement there, and was among the people that left the campus to do community-based organizing. And I was part of a group of people that really drew their main inspiration from the example bein’ set by the Black Panther Party and by [00:01:00] the challenge that started with SNCC and then continued with the Panthers to White people who wanted to change society. That our job was to organize White people who were oppressed to realize that they were part of the same struggle as the Black Panther Party. So from Madison, I joined up with a group in Racine, Wisconsin, which was called the Revolutionary Youth Movement, a name of which grew out of a group within SDS that came to be called Revolutionary -- RYM II. RYM I having been the Weatherman group, and RYM II being more, we wanna be based in the community, in communities of people, poor and working-class people struggling for change and less the idea of, [00:02:00] kind of, a small elite that, sort of, knew what to do and was out, you know, kind of, a bit isolated, I think, from the struggles of poor and working people. So in Racine, Wisconsin, we had direct contact with a group that was 1 �called the People’s Information Center in Chicago, which had the same connection to SDS that we did. And we also had contact with the Black Panther Party chapter in Rockford, Illinois, which wasn’t that far from Racine, and the leaders there, you know, particularly, a guy named Harold Bell. But the People’s Information Center, which became the Intercommunal Survival Committee, had a direct tie with the [00:03:00] Black Panther Party nationally and in Chicago. And we increasingly began to work together with them while we were still in Racine, and we were organizing things like a free breakfast for children program. We were distributing the Black Panther Party newspaper to poor, White people in Racine and, kind of, modeling on the Survival Pending Revolution idea of the Black Panther Party. This would be, like, the beginning of the 1970s, and as time went on, the people from what became the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago proposed to us that we, kinda, join up with them. And so that people who were goin’ in this direction of community-based organizing, in which the goal was to directly [00:04:00] relate the struggles of poor and oppressed White people to the struggles of Black people and peoples of color. That people who were of that kind of approach and who saw the Black Panther Party as the most important force working for social change in the country at the time. That we should consolidate and build a base in Chicago that could be an example of that kind of work. So we agreed to do that, and we gradually, kind of -- we didn’t just up and leave Racine ’cause there were people we were workin’ with, and some of those people who were from Racine came with us to Chicago, in fact. And so there was a gradual folding into the operation in Chicago, which also drew people 2 �from an Intercommunal Survival Committee that had started in St. Louis. So you had this, kind of, convergence of organizers that were inspired [00:05:00] by that approach that I just, kind of, talked about generally, a convergence in Chicago. Now at the time, I came to Chicago in the summer of 1972, and I think it would be accurate to say -- and the person who’s interviewing me is the real expert on this, so he could correct me. But I think it would be accurate to say that by 1972, a struggle that had happened in Lincoln Park led by the Young Lords against displacement by urban renewal, had, kind of, gone as far as it could go. And, I guess in essence, you could say, had been defeated to rise again, but had defeated by the powers that be. And so I arrived when the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago was [00:06:00] still based in Lincoln Park, and Lincoln Park was a real interesting community ’cause you had this mix of people. Like I remember when -- I’m jumping ahead, but when Cha-Cha ran for alderman, he drew upon Bob Gibson to write us a campaign anthem, which was a great song, and Bob Gibson, you knew him out of Lincoln Park. So Lincoln Park was this mix of people. You know, you had this, kind of, folk song scene, and that whole thing, had probably every left group around, you know, had somethin’ goin’ in Lincoln Park in those days. And it was before they turned it into a really exclusive, gentrified community. And the struggle that Cha-Cha and the Young Lords led in Lincoln Park was the struggle against the plans to do that. So the impact of the struggle of the Young Lords in Lincoln Park against urban renewal [00:07:00] upon the organizers that were already in Chicago, the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago, I think you can’t overestimate it. 3 �Because this is where folks that had come out of the Civil Rights Movement, come out of the student movement were following that mandate that I talked about, which is we don’t need you to be runnin’ Black organizations or Puerto Rican organizations, we need you to be bringin’ White people into the struggle. So this was where that concrete connection was made. You had poor, White people in Lincoln Park, you had a, kinda, contingent of White people from Appalachia, kind of, a group of families really that were living in Lincoln Park, and other poor, [00:08:00] White people in Lincoln Park. And the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago began working with those people in the same way that we had been doing in Racine, organizing survival programs. But comes this Young Lords organization, which I don’t think I need to even try to recite that history because I assume that’s comin’ from elsewhere for this collection of interviews. Comes this Young Lords organization that grew out of a Puerto Rican street gang, absorbed the anti-colonial struggles that were goin’ on in the ’60s, hooked up with the Black Panther Party, hooked up with the Young Patriots, which was an Appalachian-based youth group in Uptown. And Cha-Cha Jiménez as the leader of that transformation [00:09:00] of a street gang into a fighting political organization, community-based, led this battle against urban renewal in Lincoln Park. To my understanding, I arrive, again, just as it’s, kind of, at the end, and Cha-Cha’s, at that point, in hiding because of a whole series of trumped-up -- right? In 1972, Cha-Cha is in hiding because of a whole bunch of trumped-up charges that are connected with all the repression in Chicago that culminated in the murder of Fred Hampton at the end of 1969. So Cha-Cha 4 �Jiménez is driven into hiding, and that movement, kind of, in defeat in ’72, but the example that it gave of large numbers of people fighting against urban renewal, fighting against displacement, saying, “We gotta have a viable community to live in, in which we can [00:10:00] thrive and in which we can reach out to other people so that we can change this country.” The impact of that upon those White organizers in Uptown, who were part of the Intercommunal Survival Committee, was just huge. When I arrived in 1972, it was clear that where we needed to go, the Intercommunal Survival Committee, was to Uptown, which was one of the nation’s largest urban concentrations of poor and working-class White people that you could find anywhere, so... And Uptown already had had struggle at the same time, which was the fight against Truman College, at the same time that the Young Lords were leading the battle in Lincoln Park, which was deliberately built by the city right in the heart of the Appalachian, White community in Chicago. [00:11:00] And it was never just Appalachian Whites, there was always a mixture, but the biggest single group was Appalachian Whites. There were other poor Whites from the South, there were poor Whites from the North, and already, there were African Americans and large numbers of Native Americans in Uptown, so you already had this mixture, so... And there already had been some struggle against urban renewal. So the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago, strengthened by bringing organizers from Racine and St. Louis, you know, strengthening its ranks in terms of a core of committed people, began to move into Uptown to build a base in Uptown. That’s where I came in, and what we did was to -- well, we did many things, but we had that direct link with the 5 �Black Panther Party. [00:12:00] And one of the first things we did in Uptown was organize what the Panthers were doin’ at the time, which was a massive distribution of groceries called the Survival Program. And it was around the theme of community control of police, which at the time, the Black Panther Party was leading a fight to try to bring about a citywide referendum for community control of police in Chicago. Of course, you know, the problem of the police and repression and the way they acted in four communities in Chicago was more than scandalous. And, of course, this was an issue that appealed to a lot of people in Uptown who had had terrible experiences with the police. So that was one of the first things we did. And Bobby Rush, who, at that time, was head of the Black Panther Party chapter in Illinois, spoke [00:13:00] at that program where we distributed 3,000 bags of groceries. But what came off of that was a whole lotta names, a whole lot of context because 3,000 people were there, and that plus our just goin’ out and canvassing, knocking on doors, sometimes seven days a week in the community. We were building this network of contacts, and we built it around distribution of the Black Panther Party newspaper. This was really an important move in terms of building a base in Uptown. We were challenging -- you know, as I say, there’s a mix of people, so we’re hittin’ doors and we’re talkin’ to Native Americans who came from the reservations, and we’re talkin’ to Puerto Ricans who were beginning to find their way up into Uptown having been displaced from Lincoln Park. [00:14:00] And some Puerto Ricans are migrating one step ahead of the wrecking ball. Every place they go, it’s gettin’ urban renewed, and they’re gettin’ displaced, and they’re migrating 6 �sometimes a block at a time up into Uptown and west out to Humboldt Park, really I think in two directions from that Lincoln Park base. That was just, you know, in essence, largely destroyed when they -- through repression and other things, they defeated that movement. So we’re knockin’ on doors, we’re meetin’ all kinds of people, focusing as much as we can upon challenging the poor, White people we met to take the Black Panther newspaper where we would deliver it once a week. Well, if you think about it, you know, the housing conditions are crowded, everybody’s livin’ on top of each other in this community. Everybody that was in Uptown, I know -- [00:15:00] I’m, sorta, jumpin’ around, but everybody that was livin’ in Uptown had been displaced from somewhere else. Appalachians had been displaced from the coal mines by technological unemployment when they brought in new machinery. They carry the coal dust in their lungs, and the black lung disease, and not much else, but what was on their back, and a lot of them came to Chicago and many, many came to Uptown. Puerto Ricans were displaced from the island by Operation Bootstrap and then displaced through neighborhood after neighborhood in Chicago, rapid-fire displacement. African Americans were displaced from enclaves they had on the North Side, and then many decided that they wanted to check out a multiracial community where they had lived on the South Side or the West Side and had been displaced often from viable neighborhoods on the South Side into public housing. So [00:16:00] you had this phenomenon of this neighborhood that had a cross-section of everybody who couldn’t fit into Chicago’s post-World War II order of urban renewal, gentrification, and putting all the resources into the Loop. 7 �And Uptown is this cross-section of everybody who’s thrown out because of what was makin’ some people a lot of money in Chicago, and that was, sort of, the basis of the whole political, social order in Chicago. And so Uptown becomes the place where people start to say, “Are we gonna be displaced, just be displaced again, or we’re gonna fight? And are we going to fight each other because we’re of these different colors and different races and we’ve been taught all this crap against each other, or are we gonna pull together in order to fight to say this time, [00:17:00] this community’s got to be ours, we don’t wanna to be pushed out again?” So steppin’ backward again to the beginnings of that and what I was saying about -- so lots of people are coming into Uptown ’cause they’ve got no place else to go. The housing supply is limited, so people are crowded together. So if you’re a White person from the South or a poor, White person, and you take the Black Panther Party newspaper in that situation of so many people concentrated, you’re really makin’ a statement. People know that you’re takin’ the Black Panther Party newspaper. You’re sayin’, “Yeah, yeah, I know what I’ve heard about the Black Panthers, and I know what I’ve heard about Black people, and I know what I’ve heard about these agitators that -- comin’ around. But they seem to be the people that give a damn about what’s gonna to happen to me and my family, [00:18:00] and they seem to be sayin’ they’re part of this community, and so I think I’ll take that paper.” So you start to identify who in the community is progressive enough to identify with that. And then you’re deliverin’ that paper every week, and you’re in the person’s house, they invite you in. You’re findin’ out about them, about their life, about their family. You might meet their neighbor 8 �who comes to see them when you’re in there, sayin’, “Well, check out this article that’s in the paper this week,” or what have you. You’re learnin’ about the community, and you’re beginning to really build a base. So around that home, it was amazing what the home distribution of the Black Panther Party newspaper did. And then you gotta to look at that and say, “Well, it’s amazing the fact that there was a Black Panther Party that was producing that newspaper based on the practice that they were involved [00:19:00] in that was creating that example that we could project to people.” So it was a rare, historical moment of opportunity for organizing. Because you had this community where so many people were pushed out and displaced that was now gonna face displacement again because the establishment wakes up and says, “My goodness, this is one mile from the lake, this land is worth its weight in gold, double its weight in gold. We can’t leave these poor Whites, and Black people, and Native Americans, and Puerto Ricans, and Mexicans, and then later on other people are comin’ in, immigrants, we can’t leave that for them. There’s too much money to be made here, and besides, it’s too dangerous. We don’t let too many people get concentrated in one area, and there’s too much potential power in numbers in that concentration.” So it was a rare moment of opportunity [00:20:00] to organize people around the potential to make change. And I think that we seized upon it, and did everything we could with it, and made whatever mistakes we made. And it’s a legacy that I think the current generation of young people that’s Occupy Wall Street and whatnot, they need to know about this as one part of their history because in America, there’s this tendency towards amnesia. In 9 �other countries, there’s political parties that are working-class based that have an institutional memory, and that, kind of, carry that history from one generation to the next. Maybe they also get a little bureaucratized, and they twist it around a little, so maybe there’s a disadvantage, but there’s an institutional [00:21:00] memory. In America, each organization seems to get destroyed, and sometimes in some crazy way, induced to self-destruct. And we see it again and again, generation after generation, and then the new generation that always winds up resisting the oppression has to, sort of, try to reinvent the wheel each time. So I think it’s tremendously important that those of us that are still alive that live through some of this struggle get the story out, get that legacy out, so that young people can take it and do what they want with it. They could say, “Well, this part was bullshit, and this part was right, or it was all bull crap, but this is what we learned from it.” I’ll let the young people figure out what to do with it, but I want the young people to know about it. So, you know, I’m really jumpin’ around, and if it’s a little incoherent, I’m sorry [00:22:00] but -JJ: That’s all right. PS: -- the... So, how does the tie in -- (break in audio) PS: -- with the Young Lords? Well, let’s say that, first of all, it became very clear that resistance to displacement was gonna be the issue that was gonna pull together people in Uptown. That became clear, and it wasn’t out of a textbook. And, you know, one of the things that I feel really happened, and this -- again, it goes back to what the Young Lords got started in Lincoln Park. You can’t overestimate the 10 �importance of it. One of the things that happened was really because of the displacement process. It’s like they’re takin’-- that people are seeds that are getting spread around, and scattered about, and then the wind concentrates them again in [00:23:00] Uptown. And people are bringin’ these experiences of the oppression that’s involved in being displaced, and the examples that they had, whatever examples they bring with them of resistance to it. And you’ve got this cauldron where those experiences are comin’ together. And what I’m sayin’ is that the organizers from the Intercommunal Survival Committee, who were so inspired and learned so much from the struggle of the Young Lords, in a lot of ways, they become part of this sea, this ocean, this wave of people that’s gettin’ displaced through one neighborhood after another and comin’ together in Uptown. So that it’s not somethin’ out of a textbook, it’s somethin’ that’s alive, and the organizers themselves are actually part of the same [00:24:00] phenomenon that they’re tryin’ to figure out how to organize, you know, how to move. They’ve made a commitment, they’ve made a full-time commitment, how are we gonna move this struggle, but they’re really part of that historical experience. And the thing that happened in Lincoln Park and the mass struggle that was led by the Young Lords was key to it. So Uptown becomes, I think, really the place in the city where what I sometimes call the submerged tradition of opposition to displacement. It’s Like Cha-Cha was sayin’ to me today, “Well, are people in Uptown and in Chicago still movin’ on displacement?” and I said, “Well, it’s always there, you know, it’s under the surface. And you never know when the 11 �conditions are gonna be created for it to, you know, come up with an explosion and become a defining [00:25:00] issue again. JJ: Finish up what you’re sayin’, but can you, kind of, elaborate a little bit on some of the mechanics, some of the experiences in terms of the campaign, and -- PS: Right -- JJ: -- as well -- PS: -- that’s what -- JJ: -- in terms of when you started working in the Intercommunal Survival Community, started workin’ together with the Young Lords and -- PS: Right. JJ: -- vice versa and --? PS: And so, you know, without gettin’ into the details of the work with the Young Lords in Lincoln Park, which I think can be covered by other people who were there. JJ: Right, okay. PS: It’s about 19-- you might help me out with this, it was -- JJ: Seventy-two probably? PS: Yeah, but -- and ’70, when you came out of -- JJ: In ’72. PS: -- you came back in the open, as I remember, it was probably ’73. JJ: Nineteen seventy, December fourth, for Fred Hampton’s -- PS: Which year? JJ: Of 1972. [00:26:00] 12 �PS: Okay, very end of ’72. So we’ve been in Uptown, and we’re startin’ to organize these Survival Programs, and maybe I won’t go into all that much detail. There’s another interview where I go into more detail on that, and, you know -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PS: -- that could be used. But, you know, we’re organizing all kind. At the same time that we’re in people’s homes showing ’em the Black Panther Party paper, we’re sayin’, “Oh.” And they’re telling you about that, of the hassle they’re havin’ with the welfare department or the police or the landlord. And you write it down, and you say, “Oh well, we got this legal defense program,” and, “Oh, you can’t find a decent doctor, well, we got this people’s health program, and we got somebody that can come and help you find a better doctor and go with you to that doctor.” And then that starts to move into community-based mass movements [00:27:00] for preventive health care dealin’ with lead poisoning, dealing with black lung disease in the case of the poor Whites where there were all these folks that came from the coal mines and had black lung disease. And where we wound up, you know, really creating some models in terms of diagnosis and treatment of black lung disease out of Chicago where people, in the end, started comin’ from the coalfields to Chicago where we organized with doctors from Cook County Hospital who specialized in occupational disease. So we’re dealin’ with all the survival needs from that base of goin’ to the people’s houses with the Black Panther Party newspaper, and those survival programs are beginning to grow into more and more organized kinds of demands for change. And durin’ this process, Cha-Cha Jiménez comes out [00:28:00] of hiding, deciding the time is 13 �right to do that, and moves to Wilton and Grace area, which is interesting because Wilton and Grace is like two blocks south of what they would call the southern border of Uptown. It’s two blocks south of Irving Park, so it’s right there. It’s directly adjacent to Uptown and happens to be in the same ward that most of Uptown is in. Just a quick footnote to the political history is, in 1970, I believe in part because of the fight against Truman College and that there’s a movement startin’ to grow in Uptown, they took -- where Uptown used to historically be in one ward that was called the 48th Ward, they, kind of, chopped it up, mostly at Lawrence, from Lawrence to Foster, put that in the 48th, put the bigger chunk [00:29:00] in the 46th, and figured they’d split up the vote, right, and that they could keep down the political insurgency that they were afraid was bubblin’ up. But they didn’t, kinda, take into account that a lot of Puerto Ricans were comin’ northward and gatherin’ some in Uptown, a whole bunch in Uptown, but also a whole bunch just south of Uptown or in that Wilton and Grace area. So Cha-Cha refounds the Young Lord organization and sets up an office at Wilton and Grace, which is in the 46th Ward. And that is the beginning of what became a coalition between the Intercommunal Survival Committee and what eventually became a big, massive organization called the Heart of Uptown Coalition, which was, in a sense, almost like a community union of several thousand families, all of whom signed up to be members and that [00:30:00] fought harder and harder in this struggle against displacement. Well, Cha-Cha Jiménez refounds the Young Lords and sets up an office at Wilton and Grace, and we build this coalition. And I remember, you know, havin’ them -- really what, to me, was a great honor of 14 �taking Cha-Cha around on that home distribution route with the Black Panther Party newspaper, with a shopping bag full of Black Panther Party newspapers to deliver the Panther paper. And that was how Cha-Cha could meet a large number of families in Uptown that we were workin’ with ’cause he went around on that route with me. And so Cha-Cha starts to get known in Uptown, and he’s got the bases that the Young Lords that have been refounded are building around Wilton and Grace, and then in 1974 [00:31:00] declares his candidacy for alderman of the 46th Ward. There’s gonna be an election in February of ’75. He declared a good year prior to the election because we knew we needed time to build. And I’ll always remember the button, which was a picture of Cha-Cha Jiménez and the slogan, “The dawning of a new day,” and what’s in Spanish, “Un nuevo dia, nuevo --” JJ: El amanecer -- PS: -- El amanecer JJ: -- un nuevo dia. PS: -- un nuevo dia. And it was a big button, and we’d sell ’em for a dollar to raise money, and more and more people who were meeting Cha-Cha Jiménez, hearin’ about him were buyin’ that button, and the button was startin’ to, like, grow wings and fly or somethin’. One of the things I remember in particular was a woman named Irene Jamison who died just a few years back in Uptown -- she was very [00:32:00] old by then -- who was really the matriarch of a large, extended family of Whites from West Virginia. She was the widow of somebody who died of black lung disease, couldn’t get her benefits, was a founder of the Chicago Area 15 �Black -- in fact, the Chicago Area Black Lung Association, which ultimately came to have about 900 members, ex-coal miners from all around the Chicago area. Because we found out they were displaced coal miners just scattered out everywhere with this base that we had in Uptown. She was the founder. When she put on that Cha-Cha Jiménez button, that served notice on a whole extended family and network of people that somethin’ was changing. And there were people in her extended family who had real problems with racism. You know, they didn’t use [00:33:00] the word Black people, they used another word, and those people start to get pulled in because you gotta realize, conditions in Uptown, this was no picnic. Conditions in Uptown were really getting rough. Uptown had always been very rough. I remember when I interviewed David Hernandez for a project I was doin’ a few years ago, Puerto Rican poet, and a close friend of Cha-Cha Jiménez, and someone who was very much part of the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign for alderman, saying that he remembered. He lived on Clifton Avenue, I found out, when it was burning down to build the college. He, through process of displacement and everything else, just that sea of people, he came in there, and he saw the Young Patriots [00:34:00] and was impressed by the fact that these poor, White people from the South were starting to see a class-based fight and not a fight of White against Black or White against Puerto Rican. And he said, “You know, I remember a few years before thinkin’ we’re all gonna wind up in Uptown, and that what Uptown was, compared to the other neighborhoods, it was a cauldron of oppression.” Let’s not romanticize it. What you had was these huge buildings that existed for all kinds of historical reason, 16 �goin’ back to the ’20s with a different social function in mind at the time. And so you had huge, multi-unit apartment buildings and [courtways?] that had all been turned into rental units. In many cases, six flats chopped up into much smaller apartments. Sometimes a six-flat would [00:35:00] survive as a six flat, but you had competition for the available housing because so many people from the housing crisis in Chicago, due to displacement by urban renewal, came to Uptown. So you had competition for the housing that’s gonna exacerbate the racial tensions, right, and the racial conflicts because people are in that conflict for housing. And that’s the root of some of the gang violence between young people that really started to happen. And then you had the city coming up with plans for urban renewal that were gonna transform, and it was known that the plan was for people not to be there anymore, so what does that do to landlords, what kind of landlord is now attracted, right, to come in, and what kind of landlord leaves? Because people who own the buildings see, okay, the plan is for these folks not to be there. [00:36:00] So I’m gonna make a killin’ here, I’m gonna bleed this building, which is already overcrowded and already rundown, and I’m gonna bleed it, right? And then eventually I can burn it down, collect some insurance, and then somebody else gonna come in and buy it, and I’ll make a pile of money. So what is this? So that’s this slow, agonizing process in which arson for profit begins to increase. And arson for profit wasn’t just that some hustler wanted to burn down a building, it was who was putting the people up to it. It was because there was a plan at the highest levels to displace a community and remake it for a different class of people. So that’s the Uptown that I’m talkin’ 17 �about. And, you know, I remember actually, there was a professor who said, “Well, you know, it sounds like [00:37:00] not fertile ground for a great movement because the problems are so oppressive, right?” And I said, “Yeah, but a movement happened because the will was there and because of the other things that I said, different people comin’ together.” So what I’m sayin’ is that when people made that commitment to the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign for alderman, which made displacement the key issue... When people made that commitment and reached into community across racial lines, right, to say, “I’m a hillbilly from West Virginia and I’m gonna support this Puerto Rican, ex-street gang leader, right, whose cousin I might have been, you know, fightin’ with, with a knife last year, right? [00:38:00] I’m gonna reach across these lines in order to make this alliance.” And I guess what I’m saying is it’s not a simple, kind of, easy thing. This is happening under conditions of crisis, of a community in crisis, a community that’s experiencing worse and worse arson, people are dyin’ in these fires, a community that’s experiencing worse and worse lead poisoning, a community where the war on poverty kinds of programs that had been put in are bein’ pulled out and where industry is leaving the city, and there’s fewer and fewer jobs, a community in crisis. And the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign, once again, and I say you cannot overestimate the importance of the struggle of the Young Lords in Lincoln Park in terms of [00:39:00] beginning to define this tradition of political struggle against displacement. And where it makes -- you know, because Puerto Ricans had been displaced as part of their history as colonized people, you know, there’s these profound connections. Just as you 18 �can’t underestimate the importance of the Young Lords in Lincoln Park as an inspiration to people who then carry this on. Now, you can’t underestimate the importance of the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign to defining a situation in which the most oppressed people in Uptown were gonna be the defining opposition. Remember Uptown is not by itself in the 46th Ward, so you’ve got Lake Shore Drive on the east, and you’ve got a community to the west, you know, that’s, kind of, homeowners, [00:40:00] and then you got the huge population of Uptown. There was, kind of, a Lakefront liberal independence set and had good people. And I remember you got the -- when Cha-Cha got the endorsement of IPO, which was the Independent Precinct Organization, which existed -- okay, we don’t need to. You know, kind of middle class, White, liberal, independent, precinct organization. Well, that wasn’t a foregone conclusion that he was gonna get that endorsement. That took a lotta work because there were independent, Lakefront liberals who were accustomed to being the opposition, and, you know, it’s not the disparaging one. You had Bill Singer in Lincoln Park, and Dick Simpson in the 44th, and [Mike Kriloff?] in the 49th, and then later David Orr. So there’s a certain tradition, [00:41:00] and the 46th Ward’s supposed to fall in, right? But what happened here was -- and the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign was the first major step in doing that -- a movement of poor people’s coalition came to define what the opposition was gonna be in the 46th Ward. The Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign, I personally will never forget, one of the things that I remember about the Cha-Cha Jiménez for alderman campaign was that it was the partying-est campaign I have ever seen. I think it was a profound understanding of exactly 19 �where we’re at the time and what we needed to do. You had to get people socializing with each other. It wasn’t a foregone conclusion that you were gonna be able to bring African Americans, and Puerto Ricans, and poor Whites, and Native Americans [00:42:00] together in a coalition. So I remember the assignment was every Friday night, we are goin’ to have a party at the Young Lord’s office, and we did that for weeks and weeks. And if you were tired, you were goin’ to that party all right, every Friday night, and there would be a lot of Puerto Rican music at that party, right? And we would cajole, and coax, and get people to overcome whatever fear they had, bring poor Whites from Uptown, especially those gettin’ involved in the campaign, right, to the party at the Young Lords. But every Saturday night, there was another party. Every Saturday night, you organized the party in the precinct in one of the precincts you were working in at the home of one of the people. And so we had a party every Friday and every Saturday night for many weeks running, and it was really, sort of, our main recruiting tool to get [00:43:00] people recruited to be workers in the campaign and to get ’em to stay because they started lookin’ forward to this. So that was one of the things I remember about the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign, that and many, many, many hours of canvasing. And Irene Jamison putting on that button and what that did in terms of a large, extended network. It’s significant enough without creating myths, you know, without a basis in truth. The place where the poor, White support for Cha-Cha Jiménez was strongest was the part of Uptown that was from Montrose, South, and it took in that huge stretch on Kenmore from Irving to Montrose, which is now pretty well gentrified and is not the Kenmore it 20 �used to be. [00:44:00] But it was almost like a world unto itself because you had the L tracks to the west, and then you had instead of an eighth of a mile and then an intersec-(break in audio) PS: -- a quarter of a mile from Irving to Buena, and then that circle, Buena circle, and then a quarter of a mile from Buena to Montrose. And it’s all solid housing, and it’s, kind of, enclosed in a way because you got the L tracks on one side. So it’s almost a neighborhood unto itself in some ways, and it’s a huge concentration of poor people, including many poor Whites. What I’m sayin’ is that though, so south of Montrose, that’s where you’re right in proximity with the Puerto Ricans that have moved partly into those Uptown blocks, and partly into the Wilton and Grace area. That’s also where you have all the African American people in the Courtyards on Broadway, just two short blocks over [00:45:00] and directly parallel to Kenmore Street, all right, which was public housing. And in the really brutal and sudden displacement of the African American families from that public housing became the subject of the Avery suit that was a major challenge to the urban renewal plans in Uptown. What I’m saying is this is the area, the southern part of Uptown where you have the mixing, where you have people just rubbin’ shoulders with each other. And I was workin’ down there every day and knew, kind of, every crack in the sidewalk. And I remember sayin’ to myself early on, “Man, we ain’t gonna be able to do this, people using these racist terms, and they livin’ right on top of each other practically, and there’s tensions. This is gonna be the place where we’re not gonna be able to do it.” [00:46:00] It turned out it was 21 �just the opposite. For all the tension, for all the little day-to-day conflicts, once a standard was created with the Black Panther Party newspaper, with a coalition led by a Puerto Rican revolutionary nationalist leader, Cha-Cha Jiménez. Once a standard was created, and that education was created, and all those survival programs were created, that became the place where people could grasp natural political allies. People of color are our natural allies. They could grasp that message even if they were fightin’ half their lives, you know, because of some kind of silly conflict, right? That was the place, in other words, where the political support grew the fastest, and that was where Cha-Cha got the most votes. So there was an area, I remember after the election, [00:47:00] from Gray Street to about Sunnyside and from Clifton to about Clarendon. You could use it, you could come up with a map for whatever archive this is goin’ into. And so it goes a little bit north of Montrose, but it’s mostly that south of Montrose area, Cha-Cha Jiménez was the alderman of that, about seven precinct area. Cha-Cha Jiménez won the total vote in that area, and he then got, you know, somewhere towards 4,000 votes, I can’t remember the exact total. And Chris Cohen, who was the regular democratic alderman, got many more votes because there wasn’t time to build. We got the IPO endorsement, but to go get massive support on Lake Shore Drive, that was not gonna to be any easy task, and it’s not like we had infinite [00:48:00] personnel and resources to do it. And then north of Montrose, which is the place where stereotypically it got called really Hillbilly Heaven, right, Broadway and Wilson, right, and Magnolia Street and Malden where we’re at right now, that was less. Now, there were some people who took a stand up 22 �there, and did some work, and got some votes, but there was less votes there. To have a chance to win, we would’ve had to massively get all those precincts too and get the ones in the south more massively than we did. And, you know, remember, we’re fightin’ again -- people are gettin’ displaced all the time, that means they’re losin’ their voter registration. And we still had that totally oppressive voter registration system where, you know, you had to wait until they did in-precinct registration twice a year [00:49:00] to get registered to vote. And then you’d get evicted and lose your registration and don’t know how to change your address, and the precinct, meanwhile, got his control vote in the poor community, the oppressed community. That’s maybe 10 percent of the total people that are eligible to vote, but he’s got the connections to keep them registered. And he’s got them under control for whatever reason he’s got them under control, so we’re up against a lot. So we couldn’t landslide in those precincts that we won, but still, that base was established. And there was no question from that point goin’ forward that the poor people’s movement in Uptown was gonna define the opposition. And I just think you can’t overestimate the importance of that in terms of what became... I don’t remember if I finished a sentence a few things back -- [00:50:00] where Uptown became the main place where that submerged tradition of opposition to displacement, that starts as soon as urban renewal starts right after World War II in Black communities saying there’s a master plan. People are saying there’s a master plan, and we’re not in it, urban renewal is Negro removal, and then the Puerto Ricans become such an important part of that that history. And that submerged tradition comes up for 23 �some air in Lincoln Park, and comes above ground, and becomes a massive movement for a short time, and is brutally repressed, and then into Uptown. And then Uptown I think became the place where that submerged tradition of opposition and resistance to displacement most crystallized into a massorganized, political movement against displacement. In terms of the fighting against racism, [00:51:00] in terms of having a reference point relating to selfdetermination, the fact that the Young Lords led that first salvo, that Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign, that first major political campaign in the 46th Ward in Uptown. That stamped on that movement a certain character that might not have been there otherwise. So just thinkin’ about, you could almost say, the ethic of makin’ contact with the people in their homes, right, and hookin’ ’em up with Survival Programs, and out of that, will come any number of spin-offs in organizing efforts. I always remember, I think it was Slim, he went to a political education at the Young Lords office, [00:52:00] and I believe it was after the campaign. And he came back, and he said, “Well, Paul, here’s what Cha-Cha said about you. He said he was telling people about goin’ to folks’ houses and keepin’ at it, knockin’ on doors, bringin’ ’em information.” And he said, “Yeah, yeah, it’s kind of like Paul, when he goes to the house, even the dog knows him.” (laughter) That’s my favorite compliment I think that was ever paid to me as an organizer, and it was quoted to me. But that went on with the Young Lords at Wilton and Grace. One of the things that happened, one of the pledges that Cha-Cha made, one of his campaign promises was, “Win or lose, we’re gonna have a nonpartisan, righteous [00:53:00] community service office come about as 24 �a result of this campaign.” This was a promise that Cha-Cha made as part of his campaign, and we then founded that. It started out at 4048 North Sheridan, so it’s right there, right there in that territory where both Wilton and Grace and Uptown from the north can feed into it, and people can use it. And Jim Chapman, who’s a lawyer who actually came out of that Lakefront independent movement, that Lakefront independent liberal movement, progressive, and who himself knew Cha-Cha as -- if I got it right, if I’m remembering right, himself knew Cha-Cha and the Young Lords from the Lincoln Park struggle and had, sort of, gotten organized and excited by it. [00:54:00] Jim Chapman committed to this service center, which started out as the Uptown People’s Law Center in a major way. It was the good officers of the law center that made the Black Lung Association possible, so it became... And the idea of the pledge for a nonpartisan service office put that in the context of a democratic machine that’s frontin’ for urban renewal and for gentrification and for the developers. And that considers itself to be the owner, all poor people, “Hey, ain’t you a Democrat, what are you, a Republican? Of course, you’re gonna vote for the -- you know, you’re gonna vote for the Democrat, you don’t know who this-so called independent --” That’s the line, so, but it’s such oppression because the Democratic Party machine has totally sold out to the developers, and to urban renewal, and to this unjust social order. So they’ve got their 46th [00:55:00] Ward regular democratic service office and to get anything from them, you have to be owned by them. You have to be like a serf paying, you know, homage to the to the boss, right? And if you go against them politically, you can’t get any help. We said, “Whether 25 �you vote for us or against us, this office is gonna be there for the people in the community. It’s gonna serve the people in the community,” and we did it, we started this office. That was a promise that came -- that’s something else that really came out of the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign. And in the early years after the campaign, something called the Coalition Against the Chicago 21 Plan came about, which was -- the 21 Plan was the extension starting in the early ’70s of the master plans in the ’60s [00:56:00] to take the area from -- and you can look at it and see how it’s carried out now from Cabrini Green, you know, from the Near North Side and the projects down to Pilsen and protect the Loop, your investments in the Loop by making it affluent. It’s all pretty much come to pass. Cha-Cha was part of and the Young Lords were part of building that initial Coalition Against the 21 Plan. You know, I guess the one last -- reminiscing about the campaign, I just gotta mention David Hernandez because, again, there was this cultural side to it, like the parties that I was talkin’ about. He had this poem called [“We Pack,”?] you know, and when I think of that poem, to me, he’s the Puerto Rican Allen Ginsberg. [00:57:00] To me, it’s like an epic, long poem about a people’s experience. It’s we pack our rice and beans, and it’s best done orally. He would deliver that poem orally at events for Cha-Cha’s campaign and at these parties, and everybody loved it. And it was about we pack as we’re bein’ forced to move again and again and again. So, you know, it was just this culture that was coming up, this culture really of resistance to displacement and what displacement does to people. You know, you finally keep goin’ back and forth to the school, and you get to where maybe the teachers will respect your kid a little 26 �bit. You finally find a doctor who’s not just a pill pusher. You’re working to stitch together a life. You find a store where you can get some credit [00:58:00] and where they won’t rip you off, right? You’re stitchin’ together a life and then bang, no, no, no, we’re gonna fix this place up real nice, but you can’t live here. Then you’re scattered out again, and you gotta start all over again. It’s out of this that this resistance comes and that -- then that Coalition Against the 21 Plan and other coalitions that were coming about from the early to the late ’70s, coalitions against the city’s plans, you know, really, were making anti-displacement the basis of demands. That the resources of the city be reorganized, you know, to create jobs, to create decent housing, to create a situation where people could have a future. It was the opposition and resistance [00:59:00] to displacement that was the basis for those kind of nascent, you know, coming about kind of coalitions. What happens, I think, is that it then all really gets channeled into the movement to take the fifth floor, and that’s the movement that elected Harold Washington. Okay. JJ: Before that, you also ran for alderman later or -- ? PS: Well, that was in connection with -- yeah, in conjunction with the Harold Washington campaign, right? It was when Harold ran. JJ: So if you want to -- PS: Right. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) about your campaign there. PS: Right, you know, I guess we should say briefly that in terms of 46th Ward politics, after the Cha-Cha’s campaign in ’75, Helen Shiller ran in a special election in ’78, 27 �one of the old-line machine. I think, in essence, booted Chris Cohen, who they could never quite accept [01:00:00] because he came from the outside, from the New Frontier and the Great Society, and was sort of foisted on them, and they in turn were foisted on Uptown. They were Jewish machine Democrats who had to leave the West Side when it became Black, so there was always a certain weakness of the democratic machine here. But anyway, there was a special election because Cohen was finally induced to quit, and Helen ran in that, and then the regular election was just a year later in ’79. And it was an incredible campaign that massively involved a lot of people, that she undoubtedly really won. There was more time to win support, we’d been around longer, won a lot of support on Lake Shore Drive and all over the ward, the support in Uptown was just massive, there’s no doubt... She went into a runoff 800 votes ahead of [01:01:00] Axelrod, who was running for alderman for the machine and had been board committeeman for the Democrats for years. JJ: Now, this is the same Axelrod that’s --? PS: No, no, and not in the same family, I don’t think. Ralph Axelrod, but I think he’s a distant relative of the Elrod group, right? I think so, I was never terribly clear on that. But, kind of, yeah, that, sort of, or the hardcore machine Democrats from the Jewish side of it, really. So she goes to the runoff 800 votes ahead, it was unbelievable, nobody thought that would happen. I mean, people were just stunned, you know, and they brought in -- what’s -- oh, Victor De Grazia, right, that was the guy, a very expensive consultant who had run all kinds of governor campaigns and whatnot. [01:02:00] I think he ran Governor Walker’s campaign, 28 �and he came in and took that thing over, you know, and threw out anybody that -you know. He ran it, and it was the most vicious, there was violence, there was slander. One day somebody took black spray paint and sprayed it all over Helen’s face on every Helen Shiller poster, and it was the idea of black, Black Panthers, right? And, I mean, all the stops were pulled out, and he supposedly won with 50.5 percent of the vote or something to 49 point-some percent of the vote for Helen, but there’s no question that it was stolen, you know, just the fraud that we knew of. So, okay, so that was another step in [01:03:00] establishing this coalition led by poor people as the voice of opposition in the 46th Ward. A state senator named Harold Washington from the first congressional district made contact with us at the time of the Helen Shiller campaign. He had run for mayor when Daley Senior died, and they pulled off -- well, it’s gettin’ into so much details. They pulled off this racist move where Wilson Frost legally should have been the acting mayor, and they wouldn’t even let him be acting mayor for a day. I mean, the plantation politics of the city of Chicago in that era, it was so thick, it was so heavy. This guy could not even be allowed, even though he was supposed to, because of his position in the city council, be acting mayor for one day. They locked [01:04:00] the office; he couldn’t get in. And then they got Bilandic elected mayor, but Harold Washington, in his anger at this racism, who had come up through the democratic machine, ran for mayor in the special election that elected Bilandic, and made a surprising good showing. And Harold Washington, even at that right, he made contact with the Heart of Uptown 29 �Coalition and did a walk in Uptown with all kinds of -- the whole ragtag army of all the different races. Were you there then? JJ: Yeah. PS: Yeah, and he led us on a walk around Uptown, and he’s talkin’ to everyone, “Hey, vote for me, vote for me.” So then he came and did coffees. JJ: Yeah, in ’76, you’re not talkin’ about ’76? PS: I think ’77. JJ: Okay. PS: In ’77, the special election for mayor, right, right, ’77 would be the year. So then Helen runs in ’78, ’79, and Harold [01:05:00] came and hosted a bunch of coffees for her. So he started to build his bridges, and one of the main places he built his bridges as an African American South Side-based powerful politician who’s now defying the democratic machine is the movement in Uptown. So this movement in Uptown is starting to become part of a developing opposition in the city. And so then Harold -- you know, it’s a long -- you know, I don’t know that we -- I mean we couldn’t possibly tell the whole story tonight about the deci-- you know, the part that this grassroots coalition played in persuading Harold Washington to run for mayor. I guess what I wanna say is that, look, the primary thing is that it was an uprising of large numbers, huge numbers [01:06:00] of Black people in the city, African American people, against the racist democratic machine. It’s primarily that, but there’s this related and not totally the same phenomenon that is doing so much -- (break in audio) 30 �PS: -- contribute to the nature and the real content of this campaign, right? Who know -- an African American, the time was right for African American candidate to challenge the racist machine. But it wasn’t a foregone conclusion that somebody -- that Harold Washington, who I think really represented the most progressive, the most interested in coalitions across race lines of the leaders in the Black community, it wasn’t a foregone conclusion he was gonna be the candidate. That coalition, that poor people’s [01:07:00] coalition had a lot to do with what the nature of the Harold Washington campaign became, see, so I don’t wanna overstate that. Because above all, it’s an African American-led uprising, massive from the South Side and the West Side, but this is an important piece of it. And Harold was conscious in reaching out and building a coalition with that movement, so, you know, he decided to do it. There was a coalition called POWER, People Organized for Welfare and Employment Rights, which consisted of that -- I’m sure by that time, you were startin’ to get involved. M1: Yeah, I came in si-- I’ve been in Uptown since about ’58, but I worked on ChaCha’s campaign for a week on Dylan Avenue. PS: Right, right. M1: But I came in in ’79, we were getting ready [01:08:00] to keep Bernard Carey as state attorney, yeah, against Daley -- PS: Yeah, yeah. JJ: -- [another?] Daley, and that’s when we started -- PS: I definitely -- JJ: -- hangin’ out in Wilson Avenue again. 31 �PS: Yeah, I hear what you’re sayin’. So around that time comes about this People Organized for Welfare and Employment Rights coalition, which are people from Uptown and all kinds of places. We’re makin’ contact with communities we didn’t have contact before, Far South Side and all kinds of places, and we’re startin’ to talk about the key here is voter registration. Remember what I said, they’ve got the city locked up because they’ve got a voter registration system that’s closed. Where you got two times a year that you can register in your own precinct 30 days before the election, and otherwise, you’re not registered, and the precinct captain will control, [01:09:00] will have various ways to disenfranchise people and control who’s gonna be registered to vote. And masses and masses of poor people never even vote because they’re not registered. So, you know, we came about with this idea, let’s pressure the board of elections and make them send registrars to the welfare and unemployment offices. That’s where our people are. Somebody, just a grassroots person from the community thought of this idea at a meeting, “Hey, why don’t we get people registered to vote? They got their ID on ’em, they gotta have that because they’re goin’ to do their business with the welfare department or unemployment office. Make ’em send registrars there, and we’ll be out there runnin’ around and gettin’ people to go out, [01:10:00] you know, I guess outside to a van where they’d be set up and register to vote.” And we were able to pressure them to do it because there’s a movement gathering and there’s political pressure. So through that and other means, tens of thousands of new voters are put on the rolls. Harold said, “You want me to run?” Harold meanwhile had defied the democratic machine, ran against a handpicked 32 �machine candidate for congressman of the first district, and won. So now, he’s got a seat in the Congress, and Harold’s got a seat in the Congress -(break in audio) JJ: Okay, go ahead. PS: So Harold Washington has a seat in the Congress, a growing reputation. Why does he wanna run in some, you know, tiltin’ at the windmills mayoral campaign, you know, against this entrenched [01:11:00] big-city machine, when he can be a progressive congressman and the machine doesn’t -- they don’t care what you say in Washington, you know? JJ: Yeah. PS: You can stand for anything you want to in Washington. He says, “You want me to do this, eh? Well, you register me, whatever it was, I think 50,000 people to vote.” Well, we did it. That oppressed people’s coalition was key to that. And ultimately, I mean, we had posed that issue in Uptown from the start. As a civil rights issue, they denied people the right to vote in Mississippi, they’re denying our right to vote here. They have all kinds of ways that they disenfranchise us. We have to get registered to vote; we have to demand that the registration process become opened up to people. In Uptown, we started out... I’m only gonna backtrack for a second ’cause I could get into 10 million things about the old days [01:12:00] in Uptown. We started out every Saturday morning, we’d hustle up some old beaters, and we’d line up some people, and we would drive four carloads of people to city hall early Saturday morning, wakin’ ’em up. They were out partying the night before, “Get up, you promised me you’d go, get out of 33 �bed,” and we started registering people to vote that way. And then gradually, we would demand things like a special day where the registrars from the board of election would be set up at the firehouse or the library, and we’d bring people. Around Harold Washington, that movement around voter registration grows and grows, and that’s what made possible his election because then the voters were there. People were enfranchised, and people started really grasping, “Hey, [01:13:00] we could change this city.” And just like Cha-Cha was the right candidate in 1975 in the 46th Ward, this guy was the right candidate for a movement like that in Chicago. So it’s 1982, and Harold Washington’s runnin’ for mayor, and we got this movement in Uptown, and now, we gotta figure out what we’re gonna do. So the fact that he’s African American for some White people, poor, White people, that might be even more problematic for some of ’em than somebody who’s Puerto Rican, right. And he’s from the South Side -- well, the South Side. Helen wasn’t gonna run that year, and we, at the last second [01:14:00] said, “Well, we’ve gotta have a standard bearer for Harold Washington, we may not be able to win, it’s --” You know, meanwhile, there’s a Lakefront liberal, a very good woman, let me not disparage her at all, Charlotte Newfeld, who really a good, solid, progressive person, and more and more so over the years, and she’s, you know, happily still with us. Charlotte Newfeld had been runnin’ for a year, but the nature of the politics, she wasn’t gonna be a standard bearer for Harold Washington in the 46th Ward. There was not one of these White independents that held office that endorsed Harold Washington in the primary. People that now remember about the Washington 21, and that there 34 �were White aldermen and this White person, not in that primary when the racism was being stoked up by the democratic machine because [01:15:00] that was what they were scared shitless and that was what they had, right? That was what they had, and they stoked up the racism, Vrdolyak and whatnot with everything they had. And so what are we gonna do, she’s not gonna endorse Harold Washington in the primary? She’s worried about, you know, havin’ the support of her base on the Lakefront and whatnot. We know she’s pretty good on housing, you know, we’re in this battle over housing in Uptown, we’ve gotta force a situation where the fight for affordable housing in Uptown, by that time we were in a battle to try to win a people’s plan and see if we could get 1100 units of low-cost housing to just begin to replace all the stuff that had been burned down and demolished [01:16:00] so that we could have a future in the community. We’ve gotta have some kind of standard bearer, even if we don’t win the election, to keep that issue in front, so... We were, kind of, behind because we were also taking people, full-time organizers in Uptown, and putting them all over the city to deal with this citywide campaign and try to get White support, White votes for Harold in other communities. We’ve diluted some of our strength in terms of that core of full-time, real cadre, kind of, organizers, based in Uptown who were elsewhere. So one night, we had already done our Christmas program, it was the tail end of December. You know, we did this Christmas program every year where people in the community get together [01:17:00] and hustle everything they can, hustle up, and then we got gifts and bags of groceries for thousands of people in the community. We’d already done that, that was over. It was the very 35 �end of December, and Slim Coleman says to me, “Paul, we gotta have a candidate, we gotta have an Uptown favorite son candidate, and you’re the one we want.” And I said, “No, I’m busy with the Black Lung Association, no, no, no, no, no,” and he says to me, “[Ison Cox?] says --” He’s a White brother who had come in with Helen’s campaign. Do you remember, you’d know if you saw him. Ison was just a tremendous guy, but he said, “Paul, do you realize that Ison Cox, this White guy from Missouri somewhere is telling me that he needs a candidate [01:18:00] that will support a White candidate that will be supporting Harold Washington, so he can get people on Kenmore to vote for Harold Washington? Are you telling me that you’re goin’ to deny Ison Cox his White candidate?” “Well, man, I guess not.” So we put together this campaign at the absolute last second, and we had a whole bunch of people that were out there scattered out, and, you know, I had to stop what I was doin’ with the Black Lung Association and then do all these endless series of candidates’ nights. There were like four candidates. There was Orbach, the guy who did win, who had, in mafia-like fashion, nonviolently stabbed Axelrod in the back. Axelrod, who had won as alderman, had brought Orbach up through the ranks, and then [01:19:00] after Axelrod almost lost, Orbach cut deals with Vrdolyak, who then told Axelrod, who was absolutely intending to run for reelection, “You’re not runnin’, Jerry Orbach’s runnin’.” So then a guy that really liked Ralph, Ralph Axelrod named Art Smith, a police, a Chicago police officer ran, and he had this little base among seniors, and Charlotte Newfeld ran, you know, standard bearer, that kind of Lakefront independent movement, and Orbach, and then I’m in there. So there were these 36 �endless series of candidates nights, and I was havin’ more and more fun, and we were gradually kinda... Charlotte who figured she was absolutely entitled to this ’cause she had been workin’ at it for a year, linin’ up all the ducks and talkin’ to all kinds of people, was startin’ to worry. And I pledged from the start if I’m not in the runoff and Charlotte is, I’m endorsing her, [01:20:00] but we want Charlotte to endorse Harold Washington if she gets in that runoff. And we’ve gotta have someone in the primary that’s endorsing him, and we gotta have somebody who’s gonna speak strong for the poor people’s movement in Uptown and for housing. So that was the deal, and I wound up getting 4,000 votes, Harold almost -- and that brought -- you know, in that way, above all, I was able to mobilize a lot of poor White votes for Harold Washington. So that, sort of, preserved the honor of the coalition in Uptown, where there was massive support for Harold Washington, and there was a need for an automatic standard bearer to organize that. Charlotte got about 4,600 votes, and Orbach had what it was, the front runner, and then was a -- and Art Smith had somewhat less although not a totally insignificant number of votes. [01:21:00] So then it’s Orbach against Newfeld in the runoff, I endorsed Charlotte, I worked hard for her. A lot of people in the community couldn’t quite bring themselves to go all the way, but she did very well in Uptown, and she lost by even fewer votes than Helen. She lost by some 60 votes I think it was. No, that’s six votes, that was when Orbach beat Axelrod for ward committeeman, and I think so anyway. Anyway, it was incredibly close, and it was probably stolen from her also, but she just didn’t quite make it, which is unfortunate, ’cause that would’ve been one more vote for 37 �Harold in the city council. But she endorsed Harold, and she strongly endorsed our program in the heart of Uptown. So that’s what my candidacy accomplished, and then I went back to what I always went back to and never ran for office again. [01:22:00] So that’s the story of my political career, so... And Harold, as we know, won and had to stand up against the most vicious kind of racist campaign that was run against him, won the primary, and then won the general against the Republican Epton, who had all kinds of machine Democrats defecting to him. Their slogan was “Epton before it’s too late.” Cha-Cha Jiménez, when I was in that whirlwind campaign for alderman came to -- he wasn’t living in the 46th Ward at that time, and he came there and spent the day goin’ around with me, talkin’ to especially Latino voters about my candidacy, kind of, returning the compliment of all the work I did for him when he was running for alderman. So Harold Washington [01:23:00] did win that election and that gave us a lot of breathing space in Uptown. It’s a long story what then happened with Harold Washington and what happened with Uptown, and maybe that’s best left for another time. Because I think we wanted to, sort of, key in on the relationship of the struggle in Uptown with the Young Lords, and how it plays into Harold Washington in my campaign for alderman. JJ: Okay, I think that’s good. PS: Okay. JJ: What do you think...? So we think, we’ll leave that for another time, but, what, anything else related to the process of goin’ to Harold? We also worked in the Logan Square area in the office over there, you know, was it a continuation of the 38 �struggle? I mean, did you see it as a continuation of your campaign, Helen’s campaign, how did you see that? [01:24:00] PS: Yeah, absolutely, and I guess what -- you know, the one thing that I would say -- JJ: I mean, the Lincoln Park -- PS: Yeah, yeah, oh, well, yeah, absolutely. In other words, from Lincoln Park, the migration into Uptown, and -- JJ: I mean what did you see? I’m just saying -- you know? PS: Right, and Uptown as the place that’s fightin’ this -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the same. PS: -- right, displacement. And then the Uptown support for Harold Washington, which, again, has this little-known role in terms of the character of the movement that elected him, right? JJ: Yeah. PS: All that comes out of that massive sea of humanity displaced every step of the way and then into Uptown -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PS: -- and resisting displacement. JJ: Right, resisting it. PS: That’s, no, no, absolutely Helen’s campaign, [01:25:00] my campaign, the election of Harold Washington, you know, the support that Harold got in Uptown and in the 46th Ward. You know, I guess the one thing that I would say, and I said it in that other interview, and maybe it’s something for young people comin’ up to think about. As I look back on it, and I, sort of, wanna make sure I don’t get 39 �misunderstood. Unreservedly, it was a great victory to take the fifth floor, to elect Harold Washington, and it was a great defeat for racism in the city. And at the same time, there’s an extent to which, remember I was talkin’ about, that you had this, the beginnings of a city-wide coalition taking on [01:26:00] displacement and destabilization of our lives by displacement, and urban renewal, and challenging, you know, and tryin’ to fundamentally challenge how the city is structured. You know, you can’t ever do it in one city, it would have to be something that would catch on elsewhere, but you can do what you can, you do what you can in one city. I guess what I’m saying is that the Harold Washington election was this massive thing in which that was one piece, that was a piece. And we had a newspaper called the All Chicago City News, which was a great vehicle and which did so much to help define the most progressive positions that came out of the Harold Washington campaign and give voice to different communities that were supporting Harold Washington. [01:27:00] What the All Chicago City News did was supply this tremendous amount of information that supported what Harold was saying around neighborhoods first. And the problem is that the resources are all goin’ to the Loop, and Chicago, you know, it’s the neighborhoods where Chicago’s people are. It’s the small neighborhood-based businesses that are actually employing more people, and we are going to redress this imbalance of resources, and then Harold, you know, did everything he could to deliver. You know, instead of playin’ favorites with his political base, he evenly divided the capital funds and fixed streets in every ward and said to these rotten machine aldermen who were trying to sabotage him at every point, “You can 40 �decide which streets, right, in your ward, just make sure it’s done [01:28:00] for the neighborhoods in your ward, right?” Here’s what I still have to say. Neighborhoods first, redress the imbalance between the Loops and the neighborhoods. The movement of that is in tandem with and in harmony with that movement against displacement. Is it the same thing? Not exactly. So I guess what I’m sayin’ is that our energies, once you win a victory, like winnin’ the fifth floor, and these powerful forces are trying to destroy that, the Harold Washington government, right? The most energetic people are the most radical people who come out of that coalition, and their energies are increasingly absorbed into defending the fifth floor, [01:29:00] and defending the Washington government, and sending people all over the place in these special elections to get alderman elected, and it’s all great. But that barely being born citywide coalition that, in a way, had a more radical program, you could say, a deeper challenge. In the end, Harold Washington dies, and it’s not there, and, whoops, we lost that. The organizational form isn’t there anymore, and there’s a whole new set of circumstances around the whole, sort of, counterrevolution you could say that’s being carried out by Daley and all kinds of things have happened in the world from the end of the Cold War to, you know, republican-dominated era. And, oh, it’s not -- [01:30:00] you know, some of that we had that starts in so many ways in Lincoln Park, right? You know, of course, it’s the Panther Party, and it’s Fred Hampton, and it’s the struggle in Lincoln Park, and the struggle in Uptown, and in Pilsen. In some ways, we neglected to continue to develop, and Harold himself, to continue to develop that totally independent grassroots, the 41 �organizational forms that would’ve been there when things started to get reversed. And Harold was known to have said in internal kinds of meetings and things, “Don’t let me co-opt you, I can’t help it. I gotta be the mayor of the third largest city in the country. This is a world major city, right, in this capitalist country, and I gotta be the mayor of it, and you can’t let me co-opt [01:31:00] you,” but there’s an extent to which it happened. It’s not Harold’s fault, I think Harold did what he was supposed to do, and whose fault is it? We had to defend his government. You got only so many resources, you got so many hours in the day, you’re workin’ day in and day out, and I think something was lost though. So I think that as people in the next generation consider the grassroots movements we’re talking about, and how they feed in Chicago, feed into this massive victory of electing of a progressive African American mayor who’s so good in so many ways, you gotta [01:32:00] figure out now, you know, how do you keep certain thing, not get totally absorbed into defending a government. And I suspect that problem has existed in plenty of places in the world but, okay. JJ: Okay, what do you think? PS: I think maybe that’s... I see, this is -- well, so when you come back in May, you wanna do -- (break in audio) M1: Just call me Uncle Junior from now on. PS: Uncle Junior? M1: Nah, everybody still does. You know, when you get older, you only got a half a dozen friends, and they all call you Junior. 42 �PS: (laughs) Makes you feel young, man. M1: Yeah, (inaudible). JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) M1: It’s unique. This is [01:33:00] my girlfriend’s son -- PS: Yeah. JJ: And -- (break in audio) PS: (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) M1: Yeah, once it settles (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PS: I’m thinking, if I had gotten that to you in advance, then you could’ve keyed in. JJ: I [keyed?] -- PS: Knowin’ what else you’re doin’ with this -- JJ: Right. PS: -- you know well -- JJ: What I’m tryin’ to [define?] is, we’re tryin’ to describe the history of the origins of the Young Lords. We want to include as much as we can about that, but what we’re trying -- you know, (inaudible) tell the different parts of the story. PS: Right, yeah, ’cause I wasn’t on the scene, so everything I say about that is secondhand. JJ: Right. PS: It’s what I learned from you. (laughter) 43 �JJ: That’s (inaudible) [01:34:00] the good part is more, I’ll ask you to -- I’ll start with what is the connection to the Young Lords in that. PS: Right. JJ: And then you’ll probably start talking about the -- PS: Uptown. JJ: -- when you lived in Lincoln Park and then -- PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: -- when you came to Uptown and how you got, you know, the Intercommunal Survival Committees and -- PS: Are you gonna be able to interview Slim for this? END OF VIDEO FILE 44 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d3cd1d7c00cc51843ba3bf4573e5c18.mp4 afd1db511d66f6c60911e3c6e138d7b7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Paul Siegel vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Pobreza--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Siegel_Paul Title A name given to the resource Paul Siegel video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Siegel, Paul Description An account of the resource Paul Siegel was a precinct captain in the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign (1973-1975). He was also a member of the Inter Communal Survival Committees that moved to Chicago to concentrate their forces and work in uptown organizing the poor at the grassroots level. Mr. Siegel also ran for alderman of the 46th ward and nearly won. Like the Jiménez campaign, his run helped to lay important groundwork in the ward for the victory that arrived with Helen Shiller’s election in 1987. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Poverty--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b9ac65c2eaed5585d3f3d71251af9cf.mp4 0c639a377775bd52b68f75c64fe1d933 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4fec516bd3ba89b80ff9394fcdb8fc6.pdf fbe9c1f4cd3cb51ed8c140760e781e2a PDF Text Text GrandValleyStateUniversity Veteran’s History Project World War II Richard Sieglw Interview Total Time () Background  (2:40) Parents were William and Mary Siegle of BostonMassachusetts o Father’s family immigrated from Russia o Grandfather wasn’t married at the time; came to America because he didn’t want to serve in the tsar’s army  Had to marry, so he married his niece o Grandmother had relatives in Pittsburgh, so they stayed there awhile before going to Aliquippa  (4:13) Dr. Siegle’s grandfather escaped on a wagon in a haystack o Paid someone to take him to the border so he could escape from Russia o Grandmother was with him at the time  (4:45) Mentions that the Jewish people had a lot of trouble in Russia, and this was the main reason that his grandfather didn’t want to serve in the tsar’s army  (4:59) Dr. Siegle’s father was born in AliquippaPennsylvania, in May of 1889 o One of 11 children o Grandparents eventually moved to Boston o Grandfather opened up a dry goods store  (5:58) Dr. Siegle’s mother’s parents were also from Russia o His grandfather was a widower left w/6 children o His grandmother was a widow left with 1 child o They had 6 more children  (6:58) Dr. Siegle was an adult before he heard of “stepbrother/stepsister” o Family was cohesive  (7:45) Remembers walking to grandmother’s house with another young boy as a child to see her dog  (9:24) Began his schooling in Dorchester o Went to Hebrew school after day school  (10:58) Mentions that Leonard Bernstein was one of his classmates o His mother and Dr. Siegle’s mother were good friends  (11:40) Talks about his Bar Mitzvah o He was the oldest and the first in his family to be confirmed �            (12:44) Says his father had a high school education; parents couldn’t afford to send him to college o Sold encyclopedias o Became a great salesmen (13:59) The community he grew up in was mixed o At the time, the Catholic church was very anti-Semitic (14:37) Dr. Siegle went to college in the Bronx o New YorkUniversity for his first year o Was a pre-med here (17:20) Applied to transfer to MichiganState in 1933 o Sent a letter to the dean of the VeterinarySchool (18:31) Went to MichiganState for 4 years o Graduated in 1939 (19:00) Before he graduated high school [veterinary school?], he went to the Army Reserve and signed up as a 1st Lieutenant in the Veterinary Corps (19:20) While he was in school, his brother also started veterinary medicine o They lived with someone named Mrs. Alice Depper o Her late husband started the canoe service o Her son was a veterinarian and wanted them to meet o Ended up living with this guy (22:38) Heard about the death of Dr. Thorndyke in Alto o He and Dr. Depper took a ride up there o Considers Dr. Depper to be a mentor  He also worked as an attorney also (25:25) Dr. Siegle’s first job as a veterinarian was fixing a draft horse’s leg o Also took care of a cow who had milk fever (28:57) Lived with the family who bought the Thorndyke’s house; The Rankins o Then lived with a couple named Frank and Linny Klein (29:22) Dr. Siegle used to spay dogs for $4 o Mentioned that his barber was also his anesthesiologist o He had ether at the time for the anesthesia (30:35) Remembers taking care of a colt that couldn’t stand up o There was a fracture o Bandaged it and molded a little cast from a coat hanger, peg, strap iron and some leather belts o Remembers that when he came back from the war, this horse was grown up and plowing the fields �  (33:25) Mrs. Siegle worked in a bank in Alto when Dr. Siegle met her o There was a roller skating party every week o This was where they met o They got married in May of 1941 (35:10) Dr. Siegle also got his draft papers in 1941 during the fall Draft/Military Service  (36:42) After getting the draft notice, Dr. Siegle went to Chicago at the Quartermaster Depot o Stayed here for a year o He was a captain at this point o The colonel said he wanted him to go to England and watch a packing company  (37:26) At this time he had a daughter o Looked for an apartment o Found a home with an elderly lady in south Milwaukee o She was an English older lady  (39:30) Dr. Siegle went by train to PittsburghCalifornia o Got here in early February and didn’t leave until March 7th, 1943 o Then shipped on an ocean liner to New Guinea o Mentions that he was associated with a variety of chaplains  (42:48) In New Guinea, Dr. Siegle worked in food inspection o Lived in a Bachelor Officers Quarters o Said in this part of New Guinea, it was either very hot, or monsoon season o There was one morning where he woke up and his cot was touching the water  (44:20) Dr. Siegle talked about the local people, said some of them were nomads  (45:25) While in New Guinea, he had a jeep o This was one of the things he could do as an officer  (47:31) He could also commandeer a boat that went off the island o Found “cat eye” stones, made jewelry for his wife  (48:55) Mrs. Siegle has many letters to and from her husband while he was overseas o While he was overseas, she spent 6 months at her parents’ house, then another 6 months at his parents’ house, and so on  (50:26) Dr. Siegle also spent time in the Philippines o The natives here were happy to be free from Japanese occupation o But there was a lot of hunger and devastation where he was  (51:50) Met a bacteriologist who taught at a university �         o They went to a leprosarium; said it was a very revealing experience (53:45) Worked in a hospital laboratory here o Hired natives, they also had to screen them o Dr. Siegle said he microscopically screened them (56:12) He was able to ride over to some of the islands (56:32) One time he was a passenger on the General’s DC3 o The pilot made his call, and on the way back, Dr. Siegle asked him to slow down so he could get a good look o Dr. Siegle got to use the joystick o Saw an inactive volcano and other things (58:35) Remembers beautiful sunsets on the island (59:27) One time as they were leaving the mess hall, there were children holding buckets o Dr. Siegle and the others gave them whatever they had left o He said it was so bad, that the food they threw into dumps was scavenged by the people  This was food that was condemned (1:00:40) Talked about the New Guinea natives o Didn’t wear shoes o Believes there was cannibalism many years ago o Natives wore loincloths and grass skirts; upper bodies and heads weren’t covered o By walking barefoot, they developed strong calluses that allowed them to walk over many things (1:01:56) The Filipino natives were dressed differently o More modern o Says they were educated; met some doctors there o They would hire a Filipino lady to do their washing and ironing in the BOQ o Barefoot o Darker skin (1:03:16) November 1945, Dr. Siegle had accumulated points for his 4 years in the military o His wife’s birthday, November 4th, he was told to go on a Liberty Ship o It was full of machinery to take back to the states o About 6-8 of them rode for one month o They landed in Long BeachCalifornia, on December 5th, 1945 (1:06:05) He said the only time his Jewish background had any bearing was just with his �            group as an officer o The other officers only spoke to him once in the Philippines; disliked him because he was Jewish (1:08:35) Came by train to Ft. SheridanIllinois o His wife came up to Ft.Sheridan o Spent time with friends from Minnesota (1:12:12) Dr. Siegle said his time in the service gave him a better appreciation of being an American (1:13:04) He said he’s glad that he didn’t have a combatant job in the army; was away from danger o He had a brother who was in the infantry in the Aleutian Islands o His brother was responsible for opening up an officer’s club; made great food (1:15:35) Lived with his wife’s parents when he got back o Dr. Depper wanted them to stay with them for awhile o Practiced for awhile with Dr. Depper in Grand Ledge (1:17:11) Was invited to go back to Alto o Wasn’t sure if he could make a living there or not (1:19:05) They bought a barn (1:20:05) The interviewer mentions that Dr. Siegle used to take care of their cows (1:20:30) Started to remodel the garage so farmers would have an office to come into o Started to make a hospital for the animals (1:21:50) Father died in 1954 (1:24:20) Had a son who practiced veterinary medicine as well o Gave him his business and it turned out excellent (1:26:00) His son eventually built a new hospital o Got an award for hospital of the year in 1983 (1:27:00) The rest of Dr. and Mrs. Siegle’s children were successful as well � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SiegleR1314V Title A name given to the resource Siegle, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Siegle, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Siegel grew up in Boston, Massachusetts, in a Russian-Jewish family. He attended college and veterinary school at Michigan State University and enlisted in the Army Reserve as a 1st Lieutenant in the Veterinary Corps. After receiving his draft papers in 1941, he went to Chicago and stayed there for a year at the Quartermaster Depot. He then went to England to inspect a packing company. He spent time in New Guinea and the Philippines and inspected various things working in a laboratory. After coming back to the US in 1945, he had a successful life as a veterinarian. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Blough, Ivan (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Lowell Area Historical Museum (Lowell, Mich.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-07-17 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4430e8935008efab15184a77897dd8fc.m4v 56bf3dfd71da984d5d06bf8bad9b4699 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e076eea5d8b8ef8f5517fadb572817a9.pdf 8e1da8773f7a1218df1fb0d377b951fd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Gordon Siggins World War II 1 hour 40 minutes 27 seconds (00:00:13) Early Life -Born in Highland Park, Michigan -Moved to Lansing, Michigan -Quit school after the ninth grade -Wanted to see what work was like before he joined the military -Born in 1925 -Father worked for Lansing Lithograph -Steady work during the Great Depression -Made good money, but he drank a lot -Had two sisters (00:01:26) Start of the War Pt. 1 -Remembers a lot of young men quitting school to enlist in the military -Went down to the train station and saw pine boxes being unloaded from the train -Bodies of soldiers coming home after being killed in the Pacific Theater (00:02:18) War Work Pt. 1 -Worked at the Willow Run Bomber Plant outside of Detroit -Made good money -Went to work at Willow Run in the summer of 1942 (00:03:25) Start of the War Pt. 2 -Learned about the attack on Pearl Harbor on the radio -Mother called him inside and told him the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor -Saw newsreels at the movie theaters -Informing citizens about the fighting in Europe and Asia (00:04:52) War Work Pt. 2 -Went to Ypsilanti, Michigan to work at the Willow Run Bomber Plant -Found a room for rent in Ypsilanti -Lived with 22 other people in the boarding house -Had to share his room -A lot of young women lived in the boarding house, which was good -Worked at Willow Run for a year -Remembers the first day he went into the factory -Had a dreamlike quality; the building was so long he couldn't see the end of it -Worked mostly with women -He worked as a 'bucker' on the bomber assembly line -Bucked rivets (reinforcing the bombers so as to absorb vibration and increase expansion) -Had to take a bus back to Lansing to visit his family due to gas rationing -Too expensive to drive a car from Ypsilanti to Lansing -Able to build a new B-24 bomber every hour -Once a bomber was complete, three or four men would test fly the bomber -If it passed, two Women Air Force Service Pilots flew the bomber to a base -Worked eight hours a day -Able to work days as opposed to nights �-Good place to work -He was 17 years old at the time, so he wasn't at risk of being drafted yet -Could have gotten a deferment by working at Willow Run -His roommate took up the offer and did his service by working at the factory (00�:10:07) Getting Drafted -Registered for the draft when he turned 18 years old -Recruiters from all of the service branches tried to convince him to join their branch -He picked the Marine Corps -In retrospect wishes he joined the Navy instead -Would have avoided harsh living conditions -Felt the Marines had the best to offer him (00�:11:15) Basic Training -Training began in October 1943 -Sent to San Diego, California for basic training -Took a train to San Diego -Four days from Michigan to California -On the first day the recruits were told what they should do, and what they would do -Also told that Marines always washed their own clothes -On the second day they were assembled for another meeting -Saw a Navy Grumman fighter plane flying overhead -A P-38 Army Air Force fighter plane roared over their heads -The two planes did acrobatics until they suffered a midair collision -The Navy pilot bailed out, but the P-38 pilot died when his plane hit the ocean -Basic training was fairly tough, but the average person could keep up with the rigor -One heavier man had trouble climbing over obstacles -Drill sergeant solved that by kicking him in the butt -Went to the rifle range -Four categories: qualifying, marksman, sharpshooter, and expert -10% scored expert, 20% sharpshooter, 40% marksman, and 10-20% qualifying -Didn't feel basic training was too bad -If you received a package from home you had to open it in front of a drill sergeant -Allowed to keep letters and other personal effects, but no cookies or candies -Drill sergeants confiscated the sweets, and most likely ate them -Noticed the drill sergeants got heavier when packages started arriving -Whatever the drill sergeants said, you did -Had no trouble adjusting to the discipline of the Marines -Some men couldn't take orders and received a court-martial -Lasted six weeks (00:17:50) Joining the Marine Raiders -Made the rank of private first class -Meant he was eligible to apply for the Marine Raiders -The Marine Raiders were the special forces of the Marine Corps in World War II -Note: Became the Marine Special Operations Regiment and renamed the Marine Raider Regiment in 2015 -Used the Raiders for advance raids on Japanese positions in “hit and run” style attacks -For example: knock out a small Japanese outpost and destroy the radio station -He was accepted into the Raiders -Issued special gear including a Marine Raider Stiletto -Sent to Camp Elliott, California for more training �(00:19:48) Deployment to the Pacific Theater -Boarded the USS President Polk (AP-103) -Remembers a sergeant being incredibly seasick during the voyage -There were 40 Marines in a 20 foot long room -Bunks were stacked six high -No porthole and not much (if any) artificial light -Knew that if the ship was torpedoed he would probably drown -Hundreds of Marines on the ship -Pulled out of San Diego as part of a convoy -Took three and a half weeks to reach their destination -Had to be towed back to San Diego due to engine trouble -After the engine repairs they sailed alone -Crossed the Equator and took part in the King Neptune Ceremony -Paddled by “Shellbacks” (men that have crossed the equator) -Those that had not crossed the Equator were considered “Pollywogs” -Shortly after the Ceremony they noticed a periscope to the ship's left -Called to general quarters -Ordered to put on life vests and never mind putting on uniforms -Periscope vanished -After the submarine scare they zig-zagged the rest of the way (00:24:30) New Caledonia -Reached a large island called New Caledonia -Island to the west of Australia, French possession -Got to the docks and unloaded -Felt good to be back on dry land -Went up into the hills -Island looked like paradise -Lush foliage, clear and cold streams -The Natives were dark-skinned people, but they had red hair and blonde hair -Combination of sunlight and mixing with the French -Spent a month at New Caledonia -Received more Raider training -Went in small rubber boats with outboard motors -Half of the motors never worked -Climbed over walls and learned how to move through foliage (00:28:14) Battle of Peleliu-Prelude -Went to Peleliu (modern day Palau) in September 1944 to liberate it from Japanese control -The Battle of Peleliu was a terrible fight and he knew from the start it was going to be bad -Prior to the Battle of Peleliu he was in the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion -The Raiders were disbanded in early 1944 -He was transferred to C Battery of the 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division -He was assigned to be a machine gunner defending the 75mm howitzers -Had no idea where they were going -A day before they got to Peleliu, Tokyo Rose told the Marines they were going to Peleliu -Note: Tokyo Rose (mentioned later as well) was an English speaking propaganda organ of Japan to demoralize American soldiers during WWII (00:31:02) Battle of Peleliu-Invasion -On 7 AM on September 15, 1944 he and the other Marines climbed down the ship into landing craft -Climbed into the landing craft and the seas were rough �-A lot of men fell and broke their legs and ankles -The Navy bombarded the island before the invasion, and it was nothing but fire and smoke -Couldn't believe anyone survived the bombardment -Landing craft advanced toward shore, but got stuck on underwater barbed wire -Japanese artillery opened fire on the landing craft -Marines jumped overboard and got caught in the barbed wire -Remembers the men screaming for help, but no one could save them -Only 100 Marines made it to shore -His landing craft returned to the larger ship and waited for their orders -While the landing craft bobbed in the rough seas he got seasick with the other Marines -Combination of the rolling motion, heat, and nerves -Alligator (LVT) and Buffalo (LVT-2) tracked landing craft approached the ships -Had to go from the regular landing craft into the tracked landing craft -The amphibious vehicle he entered was towing an ammunition trailer -When they reached the shore the trailer got stuck on the barbed wire -While taking fire, a few sailors managed to get the trailer off the barbed wire -Got onto the beachhead at Peleliu in the late afternoon -Went ashore near the landing strip -Moved along of the landing strip and staying low to avoid enemy fire -Found a destroyed Japanese pickup truck and crawled under it for cover -Spent the night there -Longest night he ever experienced -Took artillery and mortar fire as well as sporadic small arms fire throughout the night -Morning broke and he saw a dead, mangled Japanese soldiers -Learned that it was an Imperial Marine -Marines were disorganized and there were no officers around -Took more fire from the Japanese throughout the second day -Sat in a bomb crater and ate C Rations (00:42:20) Battle of Peleliu – Battle -On the third of fourth day he rejoined his unit -Saw Japanese tanks torn apart by the bombardment -The island was a mix of coral and sand, flat, save for the mountains -A third of C Battery was killed or wounded in the battle -8,500 Marines went ashore -4,000 Marines survived -Set up machine guns around the howitzers -One night, a few Japanese soldiers tried to attack the artillery positions -He killed four or five stragglers trying to attack his position -During the battle the artillery had it a little better than the infantrymen -Artillery fired day and night -Moved often because they had the smaller 75mm howitzers as opposed to the larger 105mm howitzers -Knew the battle wasn't going well -After two weeks Japanese resistance hadn't broken -Took a month to capture the island -Note: Battle went from September 15, 1944 to November 27, 1944, so over two months -In the second week of the battle Army units arrived to assist the Marines -The Japanese had artillery pieces hidden in the mountains behind thick, steel doors -Rolled out on tracks to fire on the infantry, then retreated into the mountains during air strikes -Sailors went into the mountains with acetylene torches to seal the steel doors �-American forces advanced across the island neutralizing pockets of Japanese resistance -A third of the soldiers were killed because they weren't prepared for combat (00:53:00) Rest on Pavuvu -After the Japanese were routed on Peleliu the 1st Marine Division was pulled off the island -Went to a rest camp on Pavuvu -Expected beer and milkshakes -It was a former French colony filled with coconut groves -They were, basically, the only humans on the island -It was muddy and infested with rats -Some rats were as big as cats -Used rubber bags to store fresh water, but the heat caused the rubber to leech into the water -Made the water taste like rubber -Trucks and Marines got stuck in the mud as they tried to move around the island -Stayed there for a month -The French proprietors charged the US government $125 for every tree damaged by the Marines -A 2nd lieutenant wanted the Marines to clean up the island and put the coconuts into neat piles -French proprietors wanted the coconuts scattered -If they were in piles then the piles attracted rats -Japanese had occupied the island, but abandoned it -American Navy used it briefly as a supply depot, but also abandoned it -The Navy turned the island over to the Marines to use as a rest area (00:58:29) Battle of Okinawa-Invasion -Went to Guadalcanal to receive more training -Also rebuild the unit after losses incurred on Peleliu -Boarded another trip -When they were two or three days away from Okinawa, Tokyo Rose made another broadcast -Told the Marines to expect an easy invasion compared to Peleliu -Went ashore and faced minimal resistance from the Japanese -On the third day the Japanese unleashed everything they had on the American forces -Couldn't believe the number of ships used for the invasion of Okinawa (01:01:08) Battle of Okinawa-Battle Pt. 1 -As they moved inland the Japanese resistance got worse -Set up the howitzers and machine guns on a small knoll overlooking the ocean -Hundreds of American ships and the sky was filled with antiaircraft fire -Remembers a Japanese Zero flying so low over his position that he could see the pilot in the cockpit -Zero passed over his position and attacked the American ships -The pilot strafed the ships then passed over the howitzers -Returned to ships and strafed again -Dodged antiaircraft fire -On the Zero's last pass a 20mm round hit the plane -Turned into a fireball and fell into the ocean -One of 15 Japanese planes he saw during the Battle of Okinawa -Never saw any kamikazes -The 7th Marine Regiment got stuck on one part of the island -After the third day of the battle Japanese resistance increased -His unit was on the move, but had to move slow because they were an artillery unit -Never had enough flares during the battle -One night a flare went up and he saw bushes moving just beyond the perimeter -He told the lieutenant to fire another flare to illuminate the area �-Lieutenant informed him they only had three flares until the next day -Another flare went up and he and the automatic rifle gunner opened fire -All he could see was laser-like red tracers cutting through the darkness -The next morning there were 14 dead Japanese soldiers near his position -Japanese soldiers put foliage on their helmets and uniforms as camouflage (01:08:08) Battle of Okinawa-Typhoon -Experienced a typhoon during the Battle of Okinawa -There were concrete docks offshore tethered with massive steel chains -The storm caused the steel chains to snap -The winds blew away their tents and their newly built latrine -The latrine blew into the ocean -Remembers that all he could see were tents and materiel blowing in the wind -Had foxholes to hunker down in during the storm (01�:10:12) Battle of Okinawa-Battle Pt. 2 -Told no information about the progress of the battle -Remembers eight days before they moved to a new position they got a “mail call” -One of the men in his unit loved his wife and always talked about her -On that mail call he received a 'Dear John' letter from her (breaking up with him) -She also included a photograph of herself, eight or nine months pregnant -He had been overseas for at least a year and a half -Remembers seeing some of the dead Japanese soldiers -Committed suicide rather than be taken prisoner -Three weeks before the battle ended he was clearing brush -Marine with the cheating wife offered to help him -A Japanese soldier popped out of a spider hole and threw a grenade at them -Gordon dropped and covered himself while the Marine took the full brunt of the blast -The grenade blew him apart and put an end to his suffering -Japanese forces on Okinawa surrendered on June 22, 1945 (01:13:16) Post-War Duty in China-Deployment -Received word that he would be sent back to the United States -Too many troops on Okinawa -Made sure to get rid of any contraband before he boarded the ship -Sold a beautiful pistol for only $12 so it wasn't on him -Later learned that that was unnecessary -Soldiers with 50 points were being sent back to the United States -He had 58 points -Points awarded on length of service, rank, dependents, and combat -Assigned to a ship to return home -Thought he was finally going home after a year and a half overseas -Learned that the ship was going to China before he could go home -Wound up spending six months in China -Didn't get back to the United States until February 27, 1946 -Had gone overseas on February 28, 1944 (01:16:26) Post-War Duty in China-Police Duty -Worked on the ship as a Shore Patrolman -Went ashore in China and was assigned to the Military Police -Spent a lot of time just wandering around -Stationed in a town outside of Tientsin (now Tianjin) -Moved around China on trains �-Loading Japanese soldiers onto trains to be taken back to ports and loaded onto ships -Did that for three months -In the winter temperatures dropped to zero degrees -Chinese Communists were taking control of China from the Nationalists -Heard bullets snapping past him -One Marine fired back at a communist soldier -Apparently hit the soldier -Informed that they were not allowed to return fire with rifles -Issued shotguns and buckshot -Totally ineffective except in close combat -Only had summer clothing during the winter -Quartered in the old French barracks in Tientsin -Traveled all over China on trains -Thought the Japanese soldiers he encountered were nice men -Some of the Marines took personal items from the Japanese soldiers -He never did that because he empathized with them and saw them as equals (01:22:10) Post-War Duty in China-Chinese Civilians, Crime, and Commerce -Remembers the Chinese civilians were smart people -Remembers an old Chinese man doing magic tricks for the Marines -On guard duty one night and an old man approached him -Wanted to sell his ring for only $1 -$1 was the equivalent of 3800 yuan -It was a 14 karat gold ring with a jade stone -Everything was cheap in China -Aunt sent him a diamond, onyx, and 14 karat gold ring and a beautiful money clip -Someone stole both things -Saw Chinese families in long boats on the river -Most likely lived in the boats -Marines did get in trouble in China, but not as much trouble as they could have -Only issued $12 a month while in China -Kept prices low and the Marines out of trouble (01:27:38) Coming Home -Completed his duty in China and was placed on another ship -Sailed to California -Took only a week and a half to get back to the United States -Landed at San Diego -Took a train to Chicago -Parents had moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan while he was in the Marines -Took a bus from Chicago to Grand Rapids (01:29:55) Working for Oldsmobile (Prior to Marines) -Before reporting for basic training he got a job working for Oldsmobile -Worked for Oldsmobile for a month -Worked third shift -Remembers going to the Westgate Tavern after work -Served beer despite being 17 years old -There was a girl he worked with that was 20 years old, but was turning 21 years old soon -He brought her to the Westgate after work and she tried to order a glass of wine -Turned away even though she was turning 21 the next day �(01:31:54) Life after the War -Got to Grand Rapids and wanted to go back to work at Oldsmobile -Bought a used car that frequently broke down -Wasn't able to get over to Oldsmobile to reapply for the job -Got a job at Dickinson Lithograph -Same shop his father worked at -Got a better job at Michigan Lithograph -Worked there for 40 years (01:33:13) Reflections on Service -There were a lot of bad times, but there were also really good times too -Some things were terrible, but he's able to look back on it as an overall positive experience -Especially his time in China after the war ended -Doesn't feel that the war changed him -Able to retain his personality despite everything he saw (01:35:10) Spirit of Grand Rapids Honor Flight -Went on the Spirit of Grand Rapids Honor Flight on May 16, 2015 -Chance for local veterans to be treated to a flight to Washington DC -Toured the capitol and honored for their service -Talked with Dick DeVos on the flight to Washington DC -Got back to Grand Rapids at 11 PM -Completely worn out, but agreed to go to the final part of the event -Went to East Kentwood High School for the conclusion of the day -Couldn't believe how many people were there to greet the returning veterans -Greeted by firefighters and police officers -Thousands of people welcoming them home and thanking them for their service -His wife, daughter, and grandson were there to greet him -It was a long day, but a good day � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SigginsG1920V Title A name given to the resource Siggins, Gordon Donald (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-02-11 Description An account of the resource Gordon Siggins was born in Highland Park, Michigan in 1925. Prior to serving he worked at the Willow Run Bomber Plant outside of Detroit from summer 1942 to summer 1943. He registered for the draft when he turned 18 and joined the Marine Corps. He took basic training in San Diego which began in October 1943. Upon completion of basic training he joined the Marine Raiders and trained at Camp Elliot, California. On February 28, 1944 he deployed to the Pacific Theater with the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion and trained at New Caledonia for a month. The Raiders were disbanded and he was assigned to C Battery of the 11th Marine Regiment of the 1st Marine Division. He took part in the invasion and battle of Peleliu from September 15, 1944 to November 27, 1944. After resting on Puvavu and training on Guadalcanal he took part in the invasion of Okinawa and the battle for that island from April 1, 1945 to June 22, 1945. After Japan surrendered in August 1945 he went to Tientsin, China in September 1945. From China he returned to the United States, landing in San Diego, California on February 27, 1946. Shortly after getting back to the U.S. he was discharged from the Marines. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Siggins, Gordon Donald Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e1db11f86138980e9034c3308866116.mp4 75ee17f6255fe14b132c7f75fe83628d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7b6a8eb87b6789612c21acd97150d67.pdf 02309b6852ab298074b000f323318430 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WILLIAM SIKKEL #2 Interview Date: 11/07/05 Transcribed: May 6, 2007 by Joan Raymer The enlistment was about a hundred. I think the last numbers we had were 104 or about that. They changed it because too many were leaving. I took a patrol one day and I passed out. I don’t have a clue how I got back to port. All I know is when I came to we were a hundred and some miles away and I was loaded on an airplane. I didn’t have a clue as to how it happened. 0:31 The first thing I remember is the nurse told me I had a 105.6° temperature. Interviewer: “You were close to boiling.” That was pretty high. I was wrapped in an ice pack and Cannon towels. 0:44 Interviewer: “Were you ever injured?” That is a joke because we used to kid some individuals as being recipients of a Purple Heart because they cut their finger in a can. I was nicked so little on my leg that it wasn’t worth going to the aid station with, so I didn’t. 1:27 I remember one bullet coming by my head so close that I could feel the heat, but I wasn’t hit. I guess that is a good way to answer the question. “I wasn’t hit.” malaria and the rest of the diseases that came with it, was about all that I could handle. Interviewer: “One of the problems we keep hearing about is supplies and problems getting supplies.” “How did this affect the men?” I think what hurt us most and I’m sure Gordon must have touched on this, when you kick canned food such as corned beef out of an airplane and if it is lucky enough to hit the ground, sometimes it would miss and go into the belly of the airplane, because the 1 �temperature was such that if you didn’t eat it right away it was going to spoil. 2:30 You can imagine what condition those cans were in after they hit. The thing that bothered us the most, at least me was, “have you heard about the rice in the sock? Have you heard that?” You couldn’t cook it. We had no fire, so whatever you did have, you couldn’t cook it so you couldn’t eat it. That bothered more than anything else. 2:52 Try to eat rice that is soaked in a can all night. It doesn’t get very soft. Canned goods, whatever they were, were eaten cold is cold that’s it. Interviewer: “At night in the jungle, what was it like?” Strange, because you never know if your going to make it through the night intact or not. The biggest problem is obvious, it was mosquitoes. 3:47 There was no way to avoid them. We did have some spray cans, but we were either wet from rain or wet from sweat so any spraying you did was almost meaningless. We were given order to keep our pants on. The only clothes we had were what we had on so your hands are bare from your shirt on down and in the morning your hands and wrists were pretty raw from where the mosquitoes went to work on you. 4:21 Because the anopheles mosquito was prevalent, “How do you avoid malaria? There is no way.” That is by far the worst. I sent you a picture of an individual on a rack of branches about a foot above the water. You just can’t comprehend what some of the jungle is like. I did send you a picture of the individual walking in the mud with the boot. Once you walk on the trail with 50, 60 or 100 people, it becomes a quagmire in a hurry. 4:53 So night time, that and the uncertainty of what might happen, but you get so fatigued you get in your little foxhole and you go to sleep. There are exceptions though, I remember we threw cold water on a guy who had a nightmare and then we told him to shut up and we threw some sod at him. 2 �Well in the morning when we got up, he was dead. 5:19 He had a heart attack and died. We didn’t know that, we just tried to shock him out of his delirium. You can’t get away from the rain. There is no way you can get away from the rain and that is difficult. You can’t get away from the hot sun. That is difficult and the humidity is incredible so nighttime was no relief in the jungle. Along the shore it was wonderful. It was wonderful anyplace along the shore. 5:53 There was a nice breeze and that is where you wanted to be. But that was limited to about 2 miles. Interviewer: “How were orders given and received during the Buna Campaign?” Very interesting question and the reason it is interesting is this. How we were trained. We were trained to receive orders by message blanks, arm and hand signals and radio orders. In the jungle the first orders were to take off all of your insignia. So if you met somebody you didn’t have a clue what kind of a rank they had. The second thing we learned was that arm and hand signals were suicide. 6:37 These Japanese, being up in the trees, more often than not would see you coming and all I had to do was give a hand signal and they would know that I was the leader. So you had to think of almost a whispering campaign. I remember a Captain friend of mine, he got so paranoid that it was months after we got out of combat and he still whispered for fear of being hurt. 7:03 I guess that pretty much answers your question. It was a whole different means of communication. I can give you one humorous example, at the time it was pathetic, but it is humorous. We were going into an open field, what I call an open field was a field with 6-7 feet of grass and a trail down the middle and coconut logs here and there. I knew that because I had been through there before. When you’re around the perimeter, you’re in cocoanut trees and you don’t know from now until then if you’re going to be observed. 3 �So you run the chance of running across this open field to get in the grass. I had a guy ahead of me, usually when I had a patrol out you get to know who are the savvy leaders and who are the followers, you can say “you were a Lieutenant why weren’t you up front?”, well you can’t have control when up in front and on the other hand , you don’t want to be a coward and be the last one. 8:02 So you compromise and I would usually compromise by being the second or third one from the front. I would brief them before we went as to what we could expect, if I knew what to expect. Several areas I knew what to expect. This one guy, I don’t know how I could get through to that guy and make him listen, so I said, “when you get on that trail you’re going to see a great big coconut log across the trail.” “Don’t go over it, go around it because if they see you go over it they are going to shoot you.” Would you believe he went over it and they got him right in the rear. Well, I said, “now do you understand what I was talking about?” That’s training the hard way, but I tried to tell them in advance what was going to happen. That is one way of leadership. If you look at arm and hand signals and the mortality rate of 2nd Lieutenants, you’re going to find that percentage wise it is very high. 9:08 The reason is that with arm and hand signals you’re so trained to lead that it is almost a given, “how do you communicate without doing it?” “If you turn around to talk, you’re a dead duck so you have to figure out other ways.” Interviewer: “Were you a man of faith before you went?” “Oh absolutely.” Interviewer: “Has that changed?” “Yes, it has strengthened.” There is a correlation there that I think has some bearing. 9:42 It just so happens that the night before my 22nd birthday, which happened to be 4 �Thanksgiving day, so were coming up on that too, my now brother-in-law, who became my brother-in-law, but at that time my “buddy” who was a 2nd Lieutenant and a machine gunner, said to me “when we get back to Holland, what are you going to do?” 10:02 I said “one, I am going to buy a sailboat and two, I am going to contribute to the community to the best of my ability.” I was 21 years old now. That night I was selected to run the first night patrol on the Sanananda trail. The day patrol was suicide and the night patrol was unheard of, but for some reason or other that’s what the old man said he wanted. 10:25 So I went up to the battalion commander that at that time happened to be Major George Bond out of Adrian Michigan and my company commander and the Chaplain and I emptied my pockets and I handed everything to the Chaplain and I told him that if I don’t come back to send this to my mother. 10:43 I guess that is something that you cannot forget. The next day her brother was clobbered with a mortar shell. I survived that day I don’t know, faith maybe. Therein lies a real question of theology. Her brother was killed in Anzio , but if it hadn’t been that her brother was wounded overseas, I wouldn’t have ended up with his sister. 11:19 You look at fate in so many ways. Temporary conversions, I saw lots of that. We saw lots of that, but faith ran real silent in the individuals. You could just tell by their demeanor how comfortable they were with what was going on. “Did I send you a copy of the diary of this Lieutenant that died?” I have one with me and it is something you should have. This was a friend of mine. He was a 27-year-old Lieutenant at the time out of I Company, which is a Grand Rapids unit, but he was a reserve officer. 11:59 Now you understand that one of the things your going to end up with in this interview is the differences, communication being one, evacuation being another. Here is a man who is wounded by the Japanese; we 5 �can hear him holler for help. Someone sent a Captain, a Lieutenant, a medic and a Sergeant, all out of Grand Rapids and all killed trying to save the Lieutenant. So the order came out “no more”. Not too long after that I was sent out on patrol and on my way back I decided on my own “I’m going to see if I can find Lieutenant Horton”. Well I found Lieutenant Horton, but he had died. 12:43 He wrote a diary while he was dying and it is awesome and I have it here, but the next to the last paragraph says something like this. “I have a pistol and I could kill myself, but for some reason or other I don’t think that God has that plan for me.” Then he said, “I now know how Christ felt on the cross.” That is pretty heavy stuff. Anyway, I did find him and I did take his personal effects and I did turn it in to the next higher command and it’s now history. Interviewer: “When you came back to West Michigan, did you visit any of the families of the men who died over there?” I did, but I don’t know if I should go here. You might want to cut this off. 13:41 I am morally compelled to tell you this story and if you want to follow through on a different interview that’s fine. One of the men that left us in Louisiana, and I think I alluded to that earlier, from Zeeland, a wonderful friend of mine, I talked to you about it before we started taping, ended up as a prisoner of war in Tunisia, spent 2 ½ years in Germany as a prisoner of war and when I came home from overseas his mother called me and said, ”when you go visit him at Percy Jones Hospital”, by this time he is a Captain, he’s sitting on the floor in a hallway at Percy Jones, in a robe, staring off into space. 14:33 I stuck my hand out to shake hands with him and he jerked his hand back and he said, “Bill, for some reason I have an aversion to shaking hands.” His family was thrilled because that was the first time he had talked. He had shock treatments and all that and eventually he 6 �regained his ability, but there is a part of his life that is gone. He later ended up with a Dr. of Divinity degree out of Duke University and had a wonderful family and a wonderful career. He finished a book about two weeks ago and he sent me a copy with honors. 15:06 That’s wrong and there were others naturally. There were 2 brothers killed in one day out of our outfit and naturally I went to see that family and others. Interviewer: “Tell us what kinds of diseases you had other than malaria.” It started out with dysentery and that needless to say weakened us to start with. Then malaria, tropical ulcers, which is external on the legs, typhus, hookworm, ringworm and I don’t know what else. 15:48 Jaundice, I have never gotten a straight answer on that one. We ran out of Quinine because the Japanese had gotten a hold of it in Java so when we ran out of Quinine right about that time they had come up with a formula called Atabrine that you have probably heard about. We are convinced of one of two things, either the product hadn’t been field tested enough or there were rumors that it had been sabotaged. 16:22 We started taking that and two things happened. Number one, we became yellow and really jaundiced and whether that was a product of the yellow tablet, I don’t have any idea to this day. I do know they certainly improved the technique of controlling malaria. Interesting side here as I have shared with you before, our first campaign had 83% malaria and our second campaign, which was the Aitape Campaign, someone conceived the brilliant idea of going over with bombers first and spraying with oil and DDT. 17:06 They reduced the incidence, I am talking replacement troops, down to 6% and the third down to 1% just by going over before and killing off the mosquitoes before going in. I don’t think anything compares with malaria; I never realized how serious it was until I discovered my own personal malaria with 6 months to go and spending time in the 7 �hospital. When you consider the people in foreign countries today who die because of malaria, it is unbelievable. Interviewer: “Considering injuries and sickness, how were people evacuated?” That is a very interesting question and I am very glad you asked it. With today’s mindset of helicopters and medevac and all that stuff, we didn’t even have a Jeep. We had nothing except hand carry. 18:12 What I mean by hand carry, until we were well into the campaign when we finally did get a Jeep that was brought in with an airplane, we had a hand carry. Elaine’s brother for example, he was wounded and operated on in a thatch roof hut with a mud floor and no windows and they used a flashlight for surgery and then carried 6 miles back to another hospital out in an open field, which was bombed incidentally and eventually over the mountain to New Guinea. So most of our medevac was hand carry. Plasma was almost unheard of so the mortality rate compared to today’s combat was very high. 19:01 Interviewer: “We are going to totally change now. Who was there to meet you when you came home to Holland?” Well my dad had died a week before I went overseas so the first thing I did was check in with my mother because I was the oldest of 5 kids. I had a brother in the Air Force at the time. The second thing I did was run over to see my buddy’s family who lived a few blocks away. To greet us when we cam under the San Francisco Bridge and pulled into the dock, the band was playing and of course that was fabulous and other than that I was a troop commander of a train from San Francisco to Fort Sheridan Illinois so we were not a unit, we were all individuals on that train and we went our separate ways from Fort Sheridan home. 20:04 My mother, sisters and younger brother were all happy to see me 8 �as were my grandma and grandpa and the rest and my wife’s mother and dad because I had been friends of the family forever. That was a good homecoming and the people from my church were happy because I was one of the very first people from our church to go on active duty so after 5 years that is quite a while. 20:36 Interviewer: “You said you wanted to buy a sailboat when you returned and you wanted to contribute to your community when you returned.” Well it took me 20 years to get the sailboat, but I did join the Chamber of Commerce and I did join the Salvation Army Advisory board, in fact I’m a life member and still am. I did get involved with the community through the Chamber of Commerce and eventually the Kiwanis Club there and someone came up with the bright idea that I should run for Mayor and that happened. Also, I made U.S. history by being defeated by a youngster fresh out of college. We moved into Allegan County and I became a County Commissioner and I was that for 10 years. 21:27 I guess that I lived up to my promise that I would make a commitment to my community. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SikkelW2 Title A name given to the resource Sikkel, William (Interview transcript and video, 2 of 2), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sikkel, William Description An account of the resource William A. Sikkel joined the Michigan National Guard before World War II and served in the army on active duty between 1940 and 1945 in the 126th Regiment, 32nd "Red Arrow" Division. He attended Officer Candidate School before the division shipped out to the Pacific and served in Australia and New Guinea as a platoon and company commander and as a staff officer. He remained in the National Guard after the war, and also served as mayor of Holland, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Van Til, Anita (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/95b95e4fd6099356d8083b5b40470f7a.mp4 773b4cd1a1b4dedc09a1e0e4c0b2537b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/34dc23019f55d1647367585c53304adc.pdf 60ebcfcc6d1b9a1cbc1f69a1bc7a460a PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WILLIAM A. SIKKEL #1 of 2 Transcribed by Joan Raymer May 11, 2007 Birth date: November 25, 1920 :50 I started out as a Private and went through the enlisted rank up to Staff Sergeant. I was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in Australia, came home as a Captain and reorganized the Holland, Michigan National Guard Unit and retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. 1:10 Interviewer: “When did you join the National Guard?” On my eighteenth birthday. Interviewer: “Why?” Well, I had an uncle that was in at that time and I kind of idolized him. I had a dad who was a WW I veteran and who was a Dutch immigrant. He was red, white and blue and things like Memorial Day and any holiday was sacred. 1:45 I guess it was ingrained and I guess I, for some reason or other, took a liking to the concept of leadership and troop organization. That pretty much motivated me to join. And I imagine the tail end of the depression and a few extra dollars must have factored into it sooner or later. 2:13 My clear and dear preference would have been to fly, but once you’re in the infantry, you’re in the infantry. Interviewer: “Had you ever traveled outside of West Michigan before you joined the service?” Outside. A few trips to Chicago, I remember a group of young men took a bunch of us kids to Detroit to see a Tiger game and then we crossed the Ambassador Bridge into 1 �Canada and that was a biggie, 2:48 other than that, no. I was pretty much restricted to the midwest. Interviewer: “When you joined the 32nd Division of the 126th Infantry [126th Infantry Regiment of the 32nd Division], did you understand the history of that division?” Not that division, I understood the history of the local unit, but at that particular point in my life, that was pretty much it. I knew somewhat of the structure, that it was pretty much West Michigan, anchored in Grand Rapids, which was the 126th headquarters. 3:19 A that point in my career I stuck with the basics and that was my local unit. Interviewer: “How many of the 126th Infantry Company “D” did you know personally before you went to Louisiana?” I would suggest that I was quite familiar with at least 50 that I can say I knew quite well. There were several that were considerably older than me and we didn’t have a lot in common, plus the fact that most of them had significant amount of rank and I was just a lowly Private. 3:57 You didn’t get too familiar with Sergeants in those days. Interviewer: “How did Holland send you off when you went down to Louisiana?” The word is “you” there and I have to qualify that. We left the city in October of 1940. There were, and I am guessing, six of us who were sent early that day. One drove the unit commander’s car, another one, who eventually became my brother-in-law, he drove his car down, my 1st Sergeant drove down with his wife and we were asked to drive someone’s car down, so the six of us left in the morning. 5:00 The rest of them left that evening from the railroad station. Your question was the community, if I recall the question and let’s put it this way, “enthusiastic, emotional support from the time the unit 2 �marched out of the armory until it boarded the train.” That was all information I received from my buddies once we joined each other in Louisiana. Interviewer: “What were the fears and questions you had as you were leaving?” 5:47 That is a good question and in retrospect, I’m not trying to suggest that I am more adventuresome than most, but I must have felt a challenge, so outside of the basic homesickness, I just saw it as an opportunity. 6:13 When you go with a group that you know so well it makes it so much easier. We knew the communication was going to continue once we got there and that pretty much alleviated any anxiety. And quite frankly, from a very personal perspective, I must have seen a challenge. I had a dad who was a perfectionist and I had a very difficult time pleasing him. That doesn’t mean I didn’t respect him, I just had a difficult time appealing to what he was trying to make me and I knew there was no possibility that we were going to be on the same page or the same network. That contributed somewhat because it gave me a comfort zone 6:58 and I had to prove something to myself. Interviewer: “ Where were you when you heard about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?” I was quite frankly having dinner with a wonderful family in Alexandria, Louisiana. We were treated extremely well down there. Many of us met many, many wonderful families down there who invited us for dinner quite frequently. It happened to be a family that invited me to dinner that particular noon and I was there at their home when we heard it on the radio. 7:11 Interviewer: “What was your initial reaction to that?” 3 �That I had to get back to camp. I happened to have, I think I was at that time a Staff Sergeant, what they call a recon or reconnaissance car, which was a military vehicle and I was smart enough to know that I better get back to camp with that. 8:01 So that is obviously what I did. Your next question might be “What did you experience when you got back to camp?” and I would be happy to answer that question. Interviewer: “How did your training vary for going to the south Pacific?” It didn’t, all of our training up to that point was training for what we call open warfare. 8:33 What I mean by that is typical Michigan terrain. Hills, valleys, woods, open fields, rivers, that’s what we were trained for. We didn’t have a clue to what a jungle was like. Sooner or later you might ask the question “where did you go from Louisiana?” and that will qualify somewhat the answer that I am giving you now. Outside of the fact that we did a lot of training on our individual weapons, like pistols, rifles, mortars and the typical enemy training like chemical warfare, cover concealment, camouflage, anti-tank defense, communications all those little things, those are the things we were taught and most of those you could use no matter where you went. 9:24 Interviewer: “In terms of your training, did you use live ammunition during practice and drills?” If you interviewed many who were in active duty that early, you probably have been told that we faked a lot in those days and by that I mean, we didn’t even have weapons. 9:48 So if we didn’t have weapons, we didn’t have live ammunition. So for example, in my case, by that time I was in the 81-Mortar Battalion and we used fence posts to simulate a 81 mortar. Obviously you can’t shoot out of a fence post, but what you can do is learn the tactical deployment of a mortar because the basic principals are lob it up and lob it in, 4 �so the angle of the angle of the fence post would be proportionate to the angle of what the mortar should be and the reason that’s significant is because the mortar person selects a totally different kind of terrain than artilleryman would for example, because a mortar shell goes up and over where an artillery shell goes in flat. 10:37 Therefore, you have to hide behind a hill and shoot over it, that’s the ideal situation. Interviewer: “when you were stationed in Louisiana, did you have any funny or strange things happen in camp?” Lots of them, some are cultural and some are climatic. Cultural is obvious, a bunch of Yankees out of Holland Michigan and placed in Louisiana, plus remember it was 1940 and there were still people thinking Civil War down there and we were in the eyes and minds of a lot of people “Damn Yankees”. I recognized early on that there were two types of southerners, the rebel southerners and the southern genteel. 11:27 And those southern gentlemen and ladies, they were a fine bunch of people; they made us feel very welcome. That’s the first observation, the second, climatic, going to a football game on Thanksgiving Day in a tee shirts and umbrellas was totally foreign to me because you button up pretty good when you go to a football game in November here generally speaking. Then of course the terrain, if you have ever spent any time in the “boonies” in Louisiana you’ve heard about red clay. 12:08 We had a cliché that went something like this, “Louisiana is the only place in world where you can be up to your rear in mud and have dust in your eyes”. Essentially that’s the way it is and when that mud cakes on your shoes your carrying a few extra pounds around. So that translates into where we lived, we lived in a tent city because there certainly weren’t enough quarters for the rapid expansion of troops, so the only permanent buildings were the mess hall and that had a 5 �sand floor and the latrine or the bath house at the end of the street. In-between there were tents and wooden floorboards and a stove that burned wood, so the funny part of it is that it was not unusual to come in from field training and find two or three tents gone because the sparks would ignite on the tent and that was the end of the tent. 13:08 I could go on and on about all the weird things that happened, but I’ll just give you one quick one. We had been given a course by the doctor on what to be careful of such as Tarantulas, you always move the leaves out of the way and then you sit for a class or whatever and would you believe, I sat right on a Scorpion. 13:33 Needless to say the doctor was right there so I had first aid right now, it was a little humorous. That was a practical explanation of what first aid is, but I never planned it that way. Interviewer: “Did you receive any shots before you left and did you know you were going to the South Pacific?” No we didn’t have a clue we were going to the South Pacific, shots yes, in fact I realized that some of us older people have a crummy sense of humor but it’s not unusual for a veteran to call a nurse a blood sucker. 14:20 You may have heard that before, but we had our blood tested so often and we had so many shots that it gets to be routine. Back in those days particularly because now you get on an airplane and fly to another country and you don’t get immunized or segregated when you get there. Back in those days one way to control disease was, number one with shots and number two, wherever we went into we went in isolation for at least 3 days until we were acclimated to the country we were in or the location we were in. 14:54 Interviewer: “San Francisco, how did you get there and what was it like when you got there?” 6 �Would you mind it I went to Fort Devens Massachusetts before we get to San Francisco? There is a reason for that. The Michigan and Wisconsin National Guard were the 32nd Division and we were sent to Louisiana obviously to train for the event and in that alleged 1 year, it was extended considerably. Therefore, I believe in March of 1942, we were sent to Fort Devens Massachusetts. The obvious question is, “you were going to Australia and New Guinea, what were you doing in Massachusetts?” 15:50 The answer was, our division was sent to replace the 1st Division who were at Fort Deveins Massachusetts at the time. The “Big Red One” you have heard about and we were destined I understand, for Ireland as a staging area. 16:03 If you read in history about the time in Corregidor and General Macarthur’s situation at that time, he was promised an army in Australia by President Roosevelt. Therefore, we were diverted from Fort Devens Massachusetts to San Francisco. We didn’t know where we were going except we were going to San Francisco. My dad died that week so I hitchhiked with the 127th Infantry out of Wisconsin and ended up in California and boarded ship about 6 hours before we left. 16:39 Never the less, we didn’t have a clue as to where we were going except obviously we weren’t going to Europe. Interviewer: “Did you hear anything aboard ship, any rumors or any sort of report as to where you were going and what it was like?” We weren’t told anything and I have a short diary at home, but I think it was the fourth day out of San Francisco when they finally told us where we were going for two reasons, one to satisfy our curiosity and stop the rumors and the other was, that was the time they began our little lectures on the cultural differences between Australia and America. 17:29 You wouldn’t think there were that many cultural differences, but even their slang 7 �language is totally different than ours, so we were prepared to understand what we were getting into once we got to Australia. Where in Australia was a clue and could be a follow up question “did you go where you were intended to or did you go someplace else?” I sent you some suggestions and I don’t know if you want to get into that now or later. 18:00 Interviewer: “In terms of the transport over, what was the experience like waiting?” Good question, and the reason it is a good question is the use of what we are doing now and you are doing now is such that we are trying to convey is the difference in transportation then and now. 18:33 If you were to watch TV tonight you would probably see someone getting on an airplane and flying of to Iraq or someplace. Number one, we went from the east coast to the west coast on a train and that in itself it totally different than hopping on a plane and flying over to San Francisco and getting on a plane. The second thing is getting on a ship because that’s the way troops were shipped in those days. In our case it was a whole division, a whole division which at that time was say the Triangle Division in the neighborhood of say 9,000 – 9,600 men all in one convoy with freighters. 19:13 And slowly, slowly because we had, I guess, 14 ships in our convoy and we could only go as fast as the slowest freighter, so even though we were on the so called flag ship Matson line and she had a sister ship Mansonia, we could only go as fast as the slowest freighter which was something like 14 knots, so that plus zigzagging, it took us 25 days to get from San Francisco to South Australia. 19:50 The reason for going to South Australia, I will share with you right now, is we were headed from [for] Brisbane which is on the North East quarter, however, while we were on that timeline on that map that I showed you earlier, the timeline would suggest that the Coral Sea battle 8 �that was taking place off to the North while our convoy was headed for Australia. 20:19 I don’t recall at that point of us having any Navy escort. 14 ships and no naval escort because they are all committed to the Coral Sea battle and we could see the flashes in the distance. About this time, and this is all speculation, the speculation we all seemed to agree with is that at that point we were diverted to South Australia instead of Brisbane because Brisbane would have been right in line with chaos so we went to South Australia which is considerably farther away. 20:55 Interviewer: “Tell us about the Neptune Ceremony.” Huh! That’s a Navy tradition when you cross the equator funny things happen and I don’t know if it’s a get even time with the cocky characters who need a little extra trimming, I don’t know. I was pretty lucky, I just got thrown in a pool, but there were those should I say, you probably heard about high school freshmen or college freshmen that’s the kind of treatment they got and some of it was pretty raunchy. 21:32 After it was all over you were given a certificate having been honored by King Neptune and that you crossed the equator on such and such a date. Which brings up an interesting point, my wife’s brother at that time, who was a high school buddy of mine, and two other fellows did a lot of singing. And one way to keep from getting sea sick was to get up on deck, so we’d get up there and sing as a quartet just for fun, so we slept on deck one night and when we woke up in the morning we had nothing in our pockets. 22:07 Somebody had stripped our pockets including the certificate I had received from King Neptune, so I have never had one since. I do not have any indelible proof that I went across the equator Interviewer: “Did you carry any personal items with you on your trip over.” 9 �The few dollars we had and our personal luggage, which was in what we called a G.I. bag with all our clothes and whatever and that was it, personal stuff, no. Do you want a little humor interspersed into this, or not necessarily? Interviewer: “Of course.” We had a 1st Sergeant who lived in Holland who was what I would call the epitome of what a soldier should be. 23:03 By that I mean he knew what he was doing, he was a fatherly figure, he was considerably older than most of us, a very kind, judgmental, fair minded individual and he hardly ever, only twice in my personal experience with him, that he violated the law or rules and I was with him both times it happened. The first time was, he had this barracks bag over his shoulder and he was walking off of the gang plank into the ship and he got about the first flight down and he lost his barracks bag and in the bottom of the bag was a bottle of scotch. He sobbed over that bottle of scotch. We weren’t supposed to have personal stuff and he had that personal bottle of scotch. 23:53 Interviewer: “Did he have a name?” VanAndroy, Gordon and I, we must have talked about Sergeant VanAndroy. Interviewer: “What was you impression of the Australian soldiers?” “May I digress for just a minute here?” I’m trying to throw in here what I think is significant and if you don’t want me to do that let me know. 24:23 When we left San Francisco, we were told all about the people in the Pacific, well Gordon might have shared with you, within an hour out of San Francisco the sea sickness set in. Imagine 7400 troops on one ship and once that starts it gets contagious and so much for that, I don’t want to go any further than that. Then we went between Tasmania and Australia and we were in the wildest sea you ever saw and this is a huge ship and to this day, since 10 �I loved to skate, I thought, “wouldn’t it be wonderful if I had roller skates and when the stern came up you could just go down the hull and when it flipped back you could turn around and go back and you could do that all day long.” 25:12 Anyway, I didn’t get sea sick. Now I ducked the question. The Australian people were wonderful. Gordon was there a couple of years ago and he probably shared with you. Anytime I see or talk with anyone who’s been there recently I want to talk to them because I want to find out if my memories are the same as what things are today. I have yet to run into a person who doesn’t love the Australians. The Australian soldiers, that was an interesting case in that not only, if you watch British TV or BBC the Brits have a style of humor that is so dry well, the Aussies are like that, very much like that. 26:08 When you consider who we fought with in New Guinea, we fought with Australian soldiers who had fought in Syria, Libya, Crete, Egypt and haven’t been home. They went straight from Libya and Crete to New Guinea without even having a chance to go home. Can you imagine? Now, not only did they have an Australian, British sense to life, they also had a devil may care attitude and let me qualify that. The American army, we were trained sound discipline, tight discipline to the point where it was just gospel with us. We would even tape our dog tags so we didn’t make noise while on patrol. 26:58 Those Australians, when it came 3:00 in the afternoon, they could care less where they were or under what situation, you’ve heard of billycans, well they had to boil their tea. There were two principles we were taught and one was noise. “How do you boil tea in a tin can without making noise?” and number two “How can you conceal your location by building a fire?” That would scare us and we would avoid them at that time because they could care less. Now I often 11 �wondered if it was their makeup or if they had been in battle so long, they didn’t care. 27:36 I don’t know what the answer to that is, but they are wonderful people. Interviewer: “What training did you receive in Australia, if any?” Pretty much the same as what we had in Louisiana and in Fort Devens, Massachusetts. We were still for some silly reason being trained for open warfare and I am convinced that our leaders didn’t have a clue as to what jungle warfare was like and if they did, it took us quite a while to learn all the nuances because, just for example, coral shells, Coral hardpan, something we didn’t have a clue of and I’ll expand on that a little bit. By this time I was a 2nd Lieutenant in the pre-WWII army and a 2nd Lieutenant was pretty hot stuff. You had a G.I. to do all your grunt work for you and that particular night, the very first night we were in New Guinea, we were bombed and we were told to dig foxholes. 28:51 I figured I was a Lieutenant and somebody would do it for me until the first or second bombing and there was a Lieutenant Colonel with a pick ax digging a hole in the shale and I thought, “if he has to do it, I guess that I have to do it too”. The answer to that is, “How do you make a foxhole deep enough in shale, rock and coral to protect yourself?” That’s the first lesson in tropical warfare. The second is obvious, in addition to climbing, rain, rain, rain, mosquitoes and everything else, but jungle foliage is so thick that unless you see it on TV it’s pretty difficult to explain. 29:33 In fact it’s almost unbelievable when you do try to explain it. And you may or may not get into the story about the airplane I lost . You ask the question,” why sixteen years?” well, I can give you an answer to that. Interviewer: “What were your experiences leaving Australia? How did you reach the island?” 12 �Except for the unit that Gordon was with, Gordon Zuverink is who we are talking about and who you interviewed before, the 2nd Battalion 126th Infantry, which was comprised of 2 units from Muskegon, Grand Haven and Big Rapids, they were close to new Guinea as I think was Gordon’s unit, Cannon Compan, I’m almost certain it was, and an anti-tank company of the 126th. The rest of us went by ship from Brisbane Australia and again, I don’t know when you want to cut this off, but I think this is significant in terms of what I call logistics. 30:39 When we left Adelaide Australia to go to Brisbane Australia, we loaded everything on flat cars and box cars and at that time Australia had 3 railroad gauges. Maybe you heard this before and maybe you didn’t. We got to Melbourne and took everything off the train and re- loaded it on another train because they had a different gauge. Then, I don’t know if we got beyond Sydney or not, when we got into the 3rd gauge. 31:10 We took everything off that train and put it on the next train so that, plus the passenger cars, which were rather antiquated. “Does that answer your question?” Interviewer: “On to New Guinea. Did you understand the mission as you left Australia?” We did, we did because things were crucial at that point. The obvious question is, “what are we doing over here when were supposed to be going to Europe?” The answer is obvious. President Roosevelt had promised MacArthur troops and there weren’t any outside of the Australians so they sent the 32nd Division from the east coast and right behind us was the 41st Division who replaced us in New Guinea, so that would give you roughly 18,000 – 19,000 troops, two divisions and then the Marines. First the Marines were there and they went to Guadalcanal, so we were it as far as New Guinea was 13 �concerned. 32:23 When we left Australia to go to Port Moresby the Japanese were roughly 25 miles from Port Moresby. The significance of that is, number one, it was on the forward slope of the mountain facing Australia and number two, there were two airstrips there that would have given them the capability of taking their fighters and bombers and flying over Australia. 32:56 And whether or not you’ve ever been involved in history to the degree that I am going to share with you, the Australian government at that time had pre-determined that they were willing to give up a portion of their country for a battleground. Therefore, there was a line established from east to west. You’ve heard of the Siegfreid line in Europe, well this was the Brisbane Line and the Brisbane Line was an arbitrary line across the country yet the Japanese landed on north like in Darwin and this is where we put up our defense. Well it didn’t get to that point. They did bomb Darwin, but no one landed in Australia. 33:40 We landed in Port Moresby New Guinea as did the Australian Cavalry in that case and chased them back over the mountains to what became the Buna campaign, so that again precipitates a lot of questions. The first question is “what kind of training did you have?” Well, we didn’t have much training because as it turned out in addition to trying to live under tropical conditions, we were hit with immediate dysentery. Immediately. Plus, if you follow the field manual on leadership you will find there is such a thing as a staging area, then there’s a departure area and then there’s a final line of departure and then you go into combat. 31:31 Well, there wasn’t such a thing in Port Moresby. Port Moresby was the Port and within three miles you were climbing mountains so there was no place to train. So that was it, the disease hit us before we ever started up the mountain and Gordon’s unit as you know from the interview, they took three or four days from Port Moresby 14 �across the mountains chasing the Japanese all the way. The Australians, they took one route and we started on, in our case, November 10, the airplane incident you might want me to talk about and we chased the Japanese all the rest of the way to what became the Buna Campaign. The reason it became the Buna Campaign, we compressed them to a point and they wouldn’t give so that’s why it took them so long to get to the sea. 35:26 Interviewer: “You mentioned a little bit about the disease and terrain, but how did you deal with morale, was there a loss of morale among the men?” Not at this point, not at this point, weakness, but no, I don’t remember seeing any loss of morale until we started seeing our friends getting killed. Then the morale changed, but even then we kept on going because it’s amazing how you condition your mind in a situation like that. Most do, not all , but most do. 36:05 Interviewer: “Tell us what happened aboard the airplane. Were you aboard the airplane?” Well, I was and that is an interesting story, a story in itself. The 1st. and 3rd. Battalions of the 126th Infantry, we were involved in the first airlift into a combat zone in the history of the U.S. Army. The group that Mr.Zuverink was with went up the mountains in advance of us and they, along with the natives I’m sure because I never did find out officially how this happened, but there was a flat area in a native village called Pongani, which was on the side of the mountain and they had to take their machetes and chop grass until it was smooth enough for us to land. There had to be an officer on each airplane and I was assigned two airplanes because my platoon couldn’t possibly fit on one plane plus there were some additional troops for some other reasons that happened to be on those two airplanes. One airplane was called the “Flying Dutchman” and since I’m from Holland 15 �obviously and the pilot was of Dutch extraction, American, but of Dutch extraction, I just made up my mind that I would fly on the “Flying Dutchman.” 37:27 The other plane was called “Golden Eight Ball.” The chaplain and I were standing side by side and I said “Chaplain, I think I am going on the “Flying Dutchman” and he said “why don’t we flip a coin?” We did and he went on the “Flying Dutchman and I went on the “Golden eight Ball” and the “Flying Dutchman crashed about of a half hour after they were airborne into the jungles. 37:50 I don’t think Gordon would have spent any time on that because he was way beyond that point. There is a very, very in depth story about that, that you can embellish at a later date if you want. Out of the original 29, including the crew, there were eventually 6 survivors in two groups. One group of 4, which included my platoon Sergeant out of Jamestown, Michigan and 2 who included the crew chief of the airplane. The rest were either killed on impact or had broken arms and legs. A couple went looking for water or some semblance of a trail and were never heard from again. 38:44 those who did stay near the airplane died one at a time. They kept a diary on the inside of the door of that airplane, which partially had burned in a fire, and the first entry was dated November 10, the date of our operation and the last entry was January 1. For your information that door is on display at the Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton Ohio now and I tried to get it to Holland Memorial Day because I was the speaker there and I thought it would be ideal to get it into our museum, but even our U.S. Congressman couldn’t get them to part with it so I would encourage anyone who ever does go there to be sure and look it up. 39:28 It is on a table encased in glass and there is a printed diary and I have a copy of the diary myself, plus I have a diary of my platoon Sergeant who land navigated for, I think I sent you a copy of the story of he and I in the newspaper. He 16 �took the compass out of the dash of the airplane and he and 5 others land navigated for 30 days over the mountains until they were finally intercepted by some friendly natives who brought them back to Port Moresby. It was incredible. 40:05 The obvious question is, “Why did it take 16 years to find that airplane?” Former president Jerry Ford was our congressman at the time and I was, I don’t know, a Major or a Lieutenant Colonel in the National guard and I had written to him and said “if you hear of any airplanes that are found, because I had been reading about it, named such and such, contact me” and it was a few days later that the AP called me and said that the airplane was had been found. Now this is 16 years after it went down. 21 years after it went down another research team went in and found the airplane, took the door off and brought it to the museum in Papua New Guinea, which is unheard of when we were there, but they did and they in turn gave it to the U.S. Air Force. 41:02 That’s an interesting story, it’s a tragic story, but how they land navigated through that jungle for that many days is, and the interesting thing is that by the time Ed, my platoon Sergeant finally did get back to Port Moresby, I had been pretty much clobbered with malaria and I’m laying in a hospital bed looking out the window in Moresby and he walked by. Needless to say that having been his platoon commander, I had to send a missing in action envelope back to his wife and I said to him, “Ed, get to a cablegram as fast as you can and let your wife know where you are.” He hadn’t even gotten malaria by that time and I just can’t imagine that because 83% of us did and he hadn’t gotten malaria at that time. 41:57 That’s a long way from the airplane ride, but it did save, in our case we only had to walk 11 days through those mountains where Gordon and that group walked 34 days, so it did save us a lot of time, but it was still rough. 17 �Interviewer: “Can you explain your first experience with the enemy or in a combat situation?” I am going to proceed with caution here because the last thing you want to hear is some of the things we really experienced and you’re not going to hear that from very many people. I will tell you this; to psychologically adjust to some of the things that you might run into is a “work in progress” and that is a cliché today. Coming down the mountain, “do you have in your notes the airplane story about shooting down the Japanese Zero?” I’ve got to inject that. Were coming down the mountain now and were heading into combat. We were given absolute instruction, “no fires, do not give your position away, the Japanese are going to be looking for you, they know you’re up in the mountains, so don’t shoot at any airplanes. 43:19 We were on the forward slope of the mountain and by that time this Japanese Zero was harassing us to the point where someone couldn’t take it any longer and he had a clear shot with his rifle at this airplane coming right straight at him straight down the valley and he fired off a round. The hilarious part of it is that he must have hit the gas line because that airplane went down in flames “right now in a second”. If he was up there trying to find out where we were and radio back, he never had a chance, but you would have thought you were at a U of M football game hearing those guys cheer, it was absolutely incredible. 44:02 That’s our first close combat experience although we had been bombed frequently back in Port Moresby. Harassed. Getting back into combat, were coming down the mountain and you begin hearing the rifle shots and machine gun shots and we knew what that was. That’s when it starts getting real and that’s when you start working yourself into, it gets real. The first observation we made is this; the Japanese you may have heard many times, had a way of, 18 �let me put it this way, if your on the offense and their on the defense and they’ve had a series of defensive positions coming down the mountain, pre planned and that’s an interesting story in its self if you want to get back to it. 45:05 Why we didn’t use their locations and there is a good answer to that, anyway, once we can compress them against the sea were not going anyplace very fast. They know were coming, they’ve had lots of time to dig in under coconut logs and bunkers and I’m sure you’ve heard and read all that. They had their fire lanes and by fire lanes I mean their machine guns are tucked across this way, so you’re going to get somebody sooner or later When you’re in grass 68 feet high and you’re trying to get through it, you don’t have a clue when you’re going to be able to get through without being detected. So the Japanese would have fire lanes, pre planned, so if anybody exposed themselves, all they had to do is pull the trigger and so you had to find out where those were. 45:57 The way they operated, they were up in coconut trees and they were observing. They would telegraph who was coming and who they were and that sort of thing. The very first Japanese casualty I saw really set the tone of our attitude because remember, killing is something you’re trained not to do. The very first person that got shot out of a tree, right outside of our headquarters was a Japanese Captain. He had a saber with him and he came out of that tree and landed right in front of us, so we went through his pockets to check and get military information as fast as we could. Would you believe the very first picture I saw was USC, University of Southern California, that’s a turnoff if there ever was one. You’d think that having been in this country in itself would have kept him from doing that. That was the first one. The first experience I had taking out a patrol and I’ll qualify that. When I was commissioned in Australia, just before going to New Guinea, my assignment was to command an anti-tank 19 �platoon. Well, whoopty-do, there are no tanks in New Guinea and there are no tanks to shoot at. So what do they do with me? Well, they made me a patrol leader and that’s not conducive to good health because you never know where you’re going to go and you’re usually in some area that you prefer not to be. 47:36 The very first patrol I took out, and to this day I don’t understand with all that tension why we had so much self control, you should understand that the average trail was no wider than this table and the rest is foliage, were at a curve in the trail and here comes a string of Orientals. Now I don’t know about you but to this day I have a tough time determining who is Japanese, who is Chinese and in some cases Filipino, so when you’re in that kind of situation with that kind of tension and something like that happens, “what do you do?” For some unknown reason or other I said, “don’t shoot” and this guy had no uniform and he held up his hands and said, “don’t shoot, me no Japan boy, me China boy”, and he must have had 14 or 15 with him. Now the Japanese use the Chinese as coolies to do all their grunt work and carry all their stuff like we used the New Guinea natives to carry our rice and all that stuff. So needless to say, if you know anything about military intelligence, if you did capture a Japanese soldier there is no way your going to get any information, no way, if they were alive and they wouldn’t let themselves live and you couldn’t do anything about it. 49:10 These Chinese boys were obviously a good source of intelligence so I sent them back to our intelligence people and they interrogated them and I’m sure they learned a lot. Beyond that a question anyone would ask is “did you kill anybody personally, how many?” and that sort of thing. I’m not going to go there, but I will say this, “one of the peculiarities of jungle warfare is that if the average American, the average person knew how many Japanese they killed, they would be astonished and the 20 �reason is, we had to fire against sound. Most of the time, we didn’t see them. I will give you one example and this is later on about the time that we penetrated through. 50:05 My experience was heavy weapons, machine guns, mortars and that sort of thing. There was a Captain out of Grand Rapids by the name of Russ Wyle, who was a heavy weapons unit commander and he and I got along just famously well for a lot of reasons, but one reason was that he and I understood heavy weapons. When we were in combat, we were at the mercy of ammunition that was kicked out of airplanes. We had no other supply we didn’t have a vehicle. We had nothing, so you can imagine what ammunition looks like when it’s kicked out of an airplane that is flying on its side and food incidentally, that’s a story in itself . 50:38 Anyway we salvaged what we could of the 81MM rounds and we stacked 3 mortars side by side maybe an arm’s length apart and the Japanese were very predictable, I said for example, that as they went down the mountain they had, what I would call, a headquarters base along the trail. They figured those lazy Yankees will just use our base and we did, we went across the trail. Then the Japanese Navy would shell where they had been assuming that we were there and we were just across the trail. Very predictable. They always left stacks of rice, stacks of Sake and a lot of other stuff, which communicated that they weren’t in too healthy condition. 51:35 We didn’t touch and rice or any Sake period. It could have been poisoned or it could have been booby trapped, we don’t know so we left it alone. This Captain and I, we got our heads together one day and decided that since the Japanese had a tendency to get drunk on Sake, if you left them alone long enough. We would do that and then we would stock pile any ammo we could get and when they decided to get drunk, we just poured it to them. 52:10 And if you left them alone for two weeks they would do the same thing again and that’s how 21 �we won the war. Incidentally, I think I sent you a picture of the Japanese Colonel that he and I went to the commanding Generals staff college together. That’s interesting, very interesting. Many may not appreciate it, but I thought it was quite nice. Interviewer: “Do you remember the first casualty you saw?” Yes, I sure do. I had a direct appointment from Sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant, which is unusual, as did my wife’s brother and my cousin who became the vice President of Hayworth and died a couple of weeks ago. There were 9 of us, I think, out of 9600 who were commissioned by direct appointment through written and oral examinations and the question, I’m deviating a little bit. What was the question again? 53:16 Interviewer: “What was the first casualty you saw?” The first casualty I saw just happened to be a young Lieutenant that was commissioned the same day we were and this was maybe the second day we were in combat. I was again leading a patrol along the trail and there he was lying off the side of the road. I’m not going to explain the condition he was in, but that was the first one. Every once in a while you would run into one or you would hear about one. You get morning reports telling you who got killed and from what unit and that sort of thing. That’s the tough part. We had again, since my brother in law and I were commissioned, your natural tendency is that your enlisted buddies are your buddies, but in the military there is a line of demarcation between being a buddy and being a leader, so they transferred us out of the Holland unit into the Grand Rapids unit so we could be away from our direct contacts. There was one particular morning, for some reason or other, I just walked across the trail, maybe 100 yards and chatted with some of my buddies from Holland. 54:45 I went back to my unit and within 10 minutes, 12 of them were killed. They just 22 �happened to get hit by a Japanese Navy barrage and I was that close to being there with them. That’s tough. That is really tough. Interviewer: “I have to ask you about MacArthur. How did you view MacArthur?” I don’t think I’m in the minority, I hope I’m not in the minority, and I don’t want to create the impression that I’m a brilliant tactician, but I do think that it’s fair for me to say that one of the reasons my wife’s brother and I were commissioned Lieutenants is that we probably look at the big picture and that’s why we became officers. I heard a lot of guys complaining about MacArthur when we were in combat and we were in combat to the point we were, I think, down to somewhere around 10% of our original troops strength by the time we were replaced. 56:03 I don’t think the average person had a clue as to why and the reason why is there was no alternative. You had to hold the ground with what you had. Therefore, we took a terrible beating physically and many other ways. I personally, the very first time I heard General MacArthur speak was about a week before we went into combat. I would have gone through a brick wall for that man. No question about it. 56:30 Then once I became a casualty, I mean a malaria casualty, the first experience I had with him was, we were outside the combat zone and refresher teaching 81 MM mortar and the army regulations say that “upon a visitation by an inspecting officer, the assisting instructor shall report to the inspector.” Now you heard and seen all about MacArthur with his flag flying and all that stuff and I just happened to look up and there stood MacArthur leaning up against a tree sucking on his corn cob pipe. There wasn’t any evidence of anyone else around, so I sent my assistant instructor over to report to him like your supposed to and he said “just keep doing what your doing, I just want to see what your doing.” 57:24 That was the first time, the second time was, 23 �we were in a casualty area where we were being rehabilitated, in New Guinea and the officers, needless to say, were separated from the enlisted men and some of us, I wasn’t one of them, but some of the officers bought Australian horses. This was back in Australia and we built a corral and we rode horses. The nurses rode horses and we all rode horses. One day MacArthur came showing up and he was death on booze, really death on booze and would you believe where he met us was a junction between the officers quarters and the post and above the post was a sign “Bottle Boulevard”. 58:12 I thought, “boy were going to get chewed here” and he looked up and he said “gentlemen it looks like the morale must be pretty good here”. Now, the man had an ego that wouldn’t quit, no question about it. If you analyze why he was what he was and the condition under which he had to fight, with his arms tied behind him, because if you read history in depth, you find out the first team is in Europe, no question, two reasons, the first reason is obvious, political, the second reason was in terms of distance, the third reason was that right here in this city, you have Polish, you have Jews, you have Catholics, you have protestants, you have Dutch and in those days people could identify with their families, therefore, their families in the Netherlands or wherever were being punished and therefore, we should go and help them no question, but who ever heard of Buna, New Guinea? 59:15 That’s part of the problem. The other part of the problem was that professionally, General Macarthur had some buddies that didn’t like him too well because he bypassed them in a hurry getting promoted and he was, as one person classified him as the American Caesar. I have to throw this in, Senator Fredricks, a state Senator at that time and I were invited to a 100th anniversary celebration of MacArthur’s birthday in Norfolk Virginia and we were personal guests of Mrs. MacArthur at a dinner 24 �and Sunday morning we joined her for “The Memoirs”, the movie, the bio. We were in the bookstore and there were two books there. “Macarthur the American Caesar” and “the Memoirs” or something like that and I said “Mrs. Macarthur would you sign this, autograph this for me?” She said “I will that, but not that one.” She just despised that other book, American Caesar. Past 60 minutes to :21 on the same tape. We had a close relationship. Other than that, because of my long involvement with the military since WWII, it is only natural that I would study the tactics and strategy and when you think of what the man had to do, he did a great job and if you look at his casualty percentages for the real estate he took, he did a commendable job. :50 I wasn’t too comfortable with the Truman firing of MacArthur, but at that time I was a student at Commanding General Staff College and some of the faculty were members of MacArthur’s staff and so I shared with them what my personal feeling was and they said, “you may feel that way, but you must remember the president of the United States is the president of the United States.” MacArthur was insubordinate, no doubt about it he was. 1:21 Interviewer: “In a couple of sentences, how would you sum up your experiences in the Pacific?” The most difficult thing was time and distance. We couldn’t tell our families where we were. “Somewhere in the South Pacific” that’s pretty general, so when your family reads about what’s going on in the Pacific they can come to all kind of assumptions, they don’t have a clue if you are in New Guinea, Guadalcanal, or where you are as compared to today with videos and we have a grandson who is a Calvin student and he is sending us communications through his laptop computer. That’s the most difficult thing, worrying 25 �about the people back home and their worrying about you and your not getting you mail for 30 days, so your disconnected from the world. 2:32 26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SikkelW1 Title A name given to the resource Sikkel, William (Interview transcript and video, 1 of 2), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sikkel, William Description An account of the resource William A. Sikkel joined the Michigan National Guard before World War II and served in the army on active duty between 1940 and 1945 in the 126th Regiment, 32nd "Red Arrow" Division. He attended Officer Candidate School before the division shipped out to the Pacific and served in Australia and New Guinea as a platoon and company commander and as a staff officer. He remained in the National Guard after the war, and also served as mayor of Holland, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Van Til, Anita (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cd2b5565515383b4ed87415c1fd9a607.pdf ec38e9799e846b6fd3fc941a8aa16937 PDF Text Text �� https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c07b401e9fa148d5f639c9f69701a686.pdf 4711c91026d4d636defc334017ab0800 PDF Text Text [Page 1] Providence 9th June 1849 My Dear Sir, I rec’d your two letters and should have written to Mr. Clayton at once on the rec. of the first --- but for the reflection that it might not serve you to do so --- yr. second came to hand while I was absent, and seeing you thought a letter might do good. I have written one --- altho I can say nothing in it which is not better known to him than to myself. I have therefore merely stated that your appt. would be very acceptable to the working men of our Section, in whose behalf you have so long and efficiently labored --- I am under great obligations to you for your kindness in naming me as one of Gen. Taylor’s advisors --- but do not regret that he found a more able and successful man in Penna. I have enough to do of my own business and should have felt great diffidence in undertaking such a task as your friendship had thought me qualified to perform --- I fear our success in electing a Pres. is not likely to enable the Govt. to do much for the labor of the Country --- without some amendment in their condition from one ascendancy its continuance cannot be hoped for. I fear that the Govt are in the �[Page 2] practise of sending a bearer of Dispatches to California often --- and I have a Brother in Law Mr. Bliss (whom you know I believe) who wants to obtain such an office, as he thinks it would aid him in reaching that desirable country --- Will you have the [?] to inform me if such is the case and if there is any reasonable prospects of getting such an appt. for him --- Who would of course act with fidelity towards the Govt. With pleasant recollections of former intercourse and friendship I remain Yours truly J.F. Simmons N Sargent Esq. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-44_NS1-UN002 Title A name given to the resource Nathan Sargent from J. F. Simmons Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1849-06-09 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Simmons, J. F. (James Frederick), 1826-1905 Description An account of the resource Letter expressing support of Sargent's appointment as Sergeant-at-Arms of the House of Representatives, and discussing the upcoming presidential election in 1850. Subject The topic of the resource Sargent, Nathan, 1794-1875 Whig Party (U.S.) United States--Politics and government--19th century United States--Officials and employees Petitions Pennsylvania Washington (D.C.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent papers, (RHC-44)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/84fb6093643040fc30911f88b665ebb2.jpg 248b293470839657168e125212c693d5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1c7423aa6ed0373f3273c4889e10d3e.jpg 5c9a5d824fe01863c566ea94f729515a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0017 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Simonson, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977 Title A name given to the resource Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe postcard Description An account of the resource Postcard of 'Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe in Saugatuck, Michigan. There is a large tree in the left side of the frame and two individuals sitting on a pink bench in front of the shop. The side of the building has "Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe" in big black lettering. The inscription on the back of the postcard says: "Hi Jerri (writing looks like it says Levi): Needless to say we enjoying ourselves. Rained all day yesterday till we got here. Cleared up and promises to be nice rest of weekend. Good food at Sky Line last nite. Then our favorite desert of you know where! Double dippers. Just what we need. Dad and I have your old room. Ken + Aud #6 across the hall. Going to Gray Gable now. Then flea market. All our love, M + D." The postcard is addressed to Jerri Lea Walsh at 22608 Victory Blvd. Woodland Hills, California 91367. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dexter Press Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Ice cream parlors Postcards Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e53d11b016e27187bf0b7fd5c129371.jpg 248b293470839657168e125212c693d5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b05cc5f561250cc056c465c0822d483.jpg 201a81620e8a5ca6ed6d1c7a5d5e09a5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0019 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Simonson, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977 Title A name given to the resource Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe postcard Description An account of the resource Postcard of 'Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe in Saugatuck, Michigan. There is a large tree in the left side of the frame and two individuals sitting on a pink bench in front of the shop. The side of the building has "Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe" in big black lettering. The back of the photograph is addressed to Jerri Lea Walsh at 22608 Victory Blvd. Woodland Hills, California 91367, however, the message on the postcard reads: "Hi sweetie, it was wonderful, we did our share of eating all those flavors - but the weather was bad - rain Fri-Sat & Sunday. The steak fingers were just as good as last spring. Your business cards are attractive. Love, A. K. [illegible]." Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dexter Press Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Ice cream parlor Postcards Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6ffe4868bf914802f8b33bd72724ae5c.jpg 7dda561074d265ee92ea02311764513b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/043c23d44ac5972c1135efd7c6f34419.jpg 89351493c79305d11a6dbfd54abb9710 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0027 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Simonson, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1980-10 Title A name given to the resource Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe postcard Description An account of the resource Postcard of 'Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe in Saugatuck, Michigan. There is a large tree in the left side of the frame and two individuals sitting on a pink bench in front of the shop. The side of the building has "Round the Corner Ice Cream Shoppe" in big black lettering. The back of the postcard has the writing: "Bill & Joyce Jann. 616-857-8851 Rooms & Apts. $20.00 couple." In the bottom left hand corner the date October 1980 is written. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dexter Press Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Ice cream parlor Postcards Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c90ae27bd4241c255e692c69775db2ab.mp4 cd5d3df40a17dc3da5000b94ea48b57d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52f042a659d04533674a5e146e5dea1b.pdf fe84c775beb5637bedef1ac3c14b396c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of Interviewee: Morgan Singer Name of War: World War II Length of Interview: (00:53:40) Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (00:13) • • • • • • • Born in Pinckney, MI He had 10 brothers. (00:57) He decided to enlist in the Navy because he had two brothers that were already in the Navy. His father was a farmer. His father died when he was 14, so his mother worked in the kitchen at Pinckney High School. (03:55) He remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor on a Sunday, and going into school the next day and talking about it with his teacher. He worked in a factory that made bombers for a time before he enlisted in the Navy. Training (11:05) • • • • • • • • • • • He was sent to Great Lakes Naval Training Station in Chicago, IL for 10 weeks of basic training. At training, they did a lot of marching and class work. (14:30) He was given 8-10 days leave after he complete basic training. (15:25) After his leave, he was sent to OGU (outgoing unit) in Chicago, where he was assigned to the amphibious group. (15:55) He was sent to Camp Bradford, VA where he learned and trained on LSTs. He was there for a month (16:35) He was then sent to Ft. Pierce, FL where he trained on LCVPs. They practiced beach landings there. They trained in all weather and did a number of tasks, including night training and swimming. (22:15) After Ft. Pierce, he was sent first to Norfolk, VA and then to Pittsburgh, PA where they waited for their LST to be completed. It was completed in February 1945. (25:30) They received the ship and sailed down the Ohio River to the Mississippi River, and then to New Orleans. (27:13) They took their shakedown cruise in the Gulf of Mexico, and then moved towards the Pacific. (28:10) His ship got caught in a terrible storm on the way to the Panama Canal, which caused them some trouble and delay. (30:15) The ship stopped in Colon, Panama before they went through the Canal. �• • • • • • • • • (30:50) They had priority as they went through the canal, because the Navy badly needed amphibious forces. Once they made it through the Canal, they made it through they made their way towards Hawaii on their own. (32:55) They got to Hawaii and were piloted into Pearl Harbor. (33:39) They left Hawaii and headed for the Philippines, and landed near Manila. On the way over, they crossed the equator, which involved several initiation rituals. (36:50) Was sent from the Philippines to Guam, where they were prepped for the invasion of Japan. (37:45) Was in Guam when the war ended. (40:15) He was sent back to the Philippines to pick up used army equipment for about 6 months. (42: 05) On leave, they would go into the small towns in the area. They would oftentimes watch American movies with the Filipinos. He remembers the people being very friendly. (45:20) After the Philippines, he was sent to Hawaii, then San Francisco. They dropped anchor near Alcatraz to decommission the ship. (47:10) He was then put o a train and sent to Chicago, finally arriving home July 6th, 1946. Post-Service (48:01) • • When he got back, he tried school but it didn’t work out. He eventually got a job in the plastics industry, where he stayed for the rest of his life. He was finally awarded a diploma from his High School in 2007. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SingerM Title A name given to the resource Singer, Morgan F. (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Singer, Morgan F. Description An account of the resource Morgan Singer was born in Pinckney, MI and served in the Navy during World War II. Singer was sent to Great Lakes Naval Training Station in Chicago, IL and then to Fort Bradford, VA and Ft. Pierce, FL for training on LST landing craft. After training, he was shipped to Guam, where he was preparing for the invasion of Japan when the war ended. He was then sent to the Philippines, where he worked clearing vehicles. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-09 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/449c2eb3ff569defb90503fdce75e315.m4v 856b19e7c1bb85ed89e360345b61d197 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05ab19c52e369f8db26a248978e74936.pdf ec4c5bac6e569f211fdb98f316e8bea9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Wayne Skaggs Vietnam War 53 minutes 45 seconds (00:00:16) Early Life -Born in Stidham, Oklahoma in 1949 on a farm -Lived there until he got drafted -Family farm had corn, peanuts, and soybeans -Lived in east-central Oklahoma -Graduated in 1967 -Worked on the farm and did various odd jobs after graduating from high school -Spent one summer in Michigan and in Texas as a welder’s helper (00:02:32) Getting Drafted & Awareness of Vietnam War -He got drafted in February 1969 -He wasn’t too aware of the Vietnam War -Heard some things on the news, but didn’t pay too much attention to it -Didn’t see or hear about anti-war movements around him (00:03:10) Basic Training -Sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for basic training -Received a terrifying greeting -Drill sergeants screaming orders and insults at him and the other recruits -Did physical training to get into shape (exercising, running, and drilling) and learned to march -Thought he was in good physical shape until they started running every morning -Strong emphasis on discipline and respect for authority -It wasn’t a difficult adjustment for him -Knew how to take orders and show respect -Basic training lasted two (or three) months (00:05:11) Advanced Infantry Training -Stayed at Fort Polk for his advanced infantry training, but received it in “Tigerland” - “Tigerland”: portion of Fort Polk focused on training men for Vietnam -Learned about guerrilla tactics and focused on being an infantryman -Training was totally focused on preparing the men for fighting in Vietnam -Did land navigation courses (learning how to navigate with a map and compass) -Did an “escape & evasion” course -Go from Point A to Point B without being “captured” by the drill sergeants -He didn’t get caught -Advanced infantry training lasted eight (or nine) weeks (00:07:20) Deployment to Vietnam -Given a leave to go home before being deployed -Flew out of Oakland, California up to Alaska then over to Japan -Landed at Da Nang Airbase -Flew over in a military aircraft -First impression of Vietnam was that it was extremely hot and humid -Sent to a processing center and stayed there for two or three days -During that time a couple 122mm rockets hit the base -He was in the mess hall when it happened and everyone hit the floor �-Arrived in Vietnam on July 11, 1969 (00:10:00) Assignment to 101st Airborne Division -Assigned to the 101st Airborne Division -Sent to Camp Evans -Sent to his company’s headquarters to wait for his company to return -He had been assigned to Delta (D) Company of 2nd Battalion of the 506th Infantry Regiment -Since he was a replacement, some of the men merely tolerated him while others helped him (00:11:25) First Patrol -Three days after joining D Company they went into the field; the first time for him -Walked out of Camp Evans at night -Usually flew out via helicopter during the day -Patrolled around Camp Evans for seven to ten days before being extracted -There weren’t a lot of new men in D Company -On the second day of the patrol they surrounded a bamboo thicket occupied by Viet Cong -One soldier ordered them to surrender and they didn’t comply -D Company opened fire on the thicket and killed three of the Viet Cong -Sergeant led an ambush that killed four or five Viet Cong -The primary objective while at Camp Evans was to flush out the Viet Cong from the area -That first patrol was a chance for him to be introduced to patrolling and making contact -On one night they were passing through tall grass -Sent the point team away from the main body of the company to conduct reconnaissance -The point team returned, but didn’t acknowledge their presence -As a result, the point man got wounded by friendly fire (00:20:05) Operating near Camp Evans -Very seldom returned to Camp Evans -Only went to Camp Evans for four to six weeks for a stand down (chance to relax and regroup) -Usually got extracted from one area of operations and moved to another area of operations (00:21:00) Operating in the Mountains -Moved into the mountains after patrolling around Camp Evans -Usually operated as a company, but spread out -Walked along the ridge-line to find the enemy and kill them -For the most part he didn’t see too many enemy soldiers -Occasionally encountered the Montagnard people (hill tribes that were US – friendly) -By now the North Vietnamese were primarily operating in the mountains -Found underground bunker complexes and hit them with CS gas (similar to tear gas) -The gas permeated the walls and making the tunnels uninhabitable -Walked on trails, but had to watch out for booby traps -Didn’t encounter too many -One man tripped one trap that consisted of a tripwire and a 155mm artillery round -Most significant booby trap he encountered in Vietnam -He had started in Vietnam as a private first class and in February 1970 he got promoted to sergeant -As sergeant he became squad leader -Almost exclusively operated in the mountains of “I Corps” after leaving the Camp Evans area -Note: I Corps was one of the tactical zones in South Vietnam -The monsoons began when they were in the mountains -Received 60 inches of rain in I Corps during the monsoon season -Helicopters could operate in the area and deliver supplies when it wasn’t raining -Rhythm of clear skies, then two hours of rain, then clear skies, more rain, etc. -Primary focus of resupplies in the mountains was getting more C-rations �-Pound cakes and canned peaches were the soldiers’ favorites -Meals weren’t good, but they kept you going -He preferred certain meals over others (00:28:17) Enemy Contact & Casualties -D Company took some casualties, but not too many -Average firefight only lasted five or ten seconds -The enemy hit and then ran -Usually outnumbered by American troops, so they couldn’t stay for a long fight (00:29:04) Leadership -When he became sergeant he had a better idea of what they were doing and where they were operating -Same idea as before (search & destroy), but he had more information available to him -Had a couple 2nd lieutenants that were incompetent -Had a 1st lieutenant nicknamed “Gator” who was a good, brave man -Didn’t have much contact with D Company’s commander, Captain Rollison (00:30:38) Operating around Firebase Ripcord Pt. 1 -Started operating around the rebuilt Firebase Ripcord in March 1970 -Located in the A Shau Valley -More enemy contact and started taking more casualties in the spring and summer of 1970 -Larger North Vietnamese presence than in the Lowlands near Camp Evans -Firefights remained short, but more frequent (00:32:18) Battle of Firebase Ripcord & Coming Home Pt. 1 -D Company was on Ripcord pulling security until July 6, 1970 -They received orders to go into the field to rescue Alpha Company -Wayne was slated to leave the field on July 6, and Vietnam on July 10 -He asked his officer what to do, and his officer told him to go home -Went to Camp Evans and left Vietnam on July 9, 1970 -On July 2 he was on Ripcord when Hill 902 got attacked -Basically happened in front of them in the early morning -Lots of explosions, muzzles flashes, and small-arms fire -Had a foxhole position on Ripcord’s perimeter with ammunition and a Claymore mine trigger -Next to the foxhole there was a bunker made of sandbags and wood for cover and sleeping -During the bombardment of Ripcord a 60mm mortar landed directly on the bunker -He and the other men were sleeping and barely noticed the sound of it landing -Never went to the top of Ripcord, just stayed at his position on the perimeter (00:37:49) Downtime in Vietnam -Camp Evans was one of the closer places for downtime -Had a PX (post-exchange; Army general store) -Had an NCO (Non-commissioned officer) Club -Able to buy and consume beer -Three times a year the unit went to Eagle Beach (in-country R&R location for the 101st Airborne) -It was a secure area on the South China Sea -Chance to go swimming and relax (00:39:20) R&R -He got an R&R to Sydney, Australia -Closest thing to being in the United States (as opposed to going to Thailand, Japan, etc.) -People and environment felt a lot like being in America -Hawaii was an option, but it was (informally) reserved for married men -Limited number of openings to go to an R&R location -Meant that if a single man took a married man’s seat then he couldn’t see his wife �-He enjoyed his time in Australia -It wasn’t hard for him to return to Vietnam because he knew it was coming -He was able to mentally prepare himself (00:40:37) Contact with the Vietnamese -Most of the Vietnamese people were good people -At Camp Evans there was a village right outside the base perimeter -He visited and a family in the village invited him into their home for dinner -Most of the civilians seemed to appreciate what the United States was trying to do in South Vietnam -D Company had a Kit Carson Scout attached to them -Former Viet Cong soldier that joined the South Vietnamese to work as a scout -Wayne’s squad had a Chu Hoi scout with him from the North Vietnamese Army -Similar idea as a Kit Carson Scout -The man they had was a good scout -Knew how to spot North Vietnamese booby traps and other threats (00:44:08) Operating around Firebase Ripcord Pt. 2 -While in the Ripcord area, a sergeant from 3rd platoon was killed in action -His platoon got ambushed near 3rd platoon’s position -His point man was wounded three times -Remembers hitting the ground and bullets kicking up dirt all around him -His best friend in Vietnam got wounded in the leg during that firefight -Called up a machine gun to rake the area with fire before moving (00:48:10) Coming Home Pt. 2 & End of Service -From Camp Evans he went to Bien Hoa Airbase and flew out of there -He landed at Fort Lewis, Washington -Issued new clothing and his payment -Given some leave then reported to Fort Carson, Colorado, for the last six months of his enlistment -Doesn’t remember encountering any anti-war protesters when he came home -The people he encountered were nice -A lot of men at Fort Carson had served a tour in Vietnam and were just waiting to be discharged -Note: Puts his discharge date in either January or February 1971 (00:51:21) Life after the War -He returned to Oklahoma after getting discharged -Got a job and got married -Had a 45-year career of installing flooring (carpet, tile, hardwood floors, etc.) (00:52:19) Reflections on Service -He had a lot of respect for the men that he served with -He would do it again if he had to -He didn’t want to go, and he didn’t enjoy it, but he did it and would repeat if necessary � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SkaggsW1959V Title A name given to the resource Skaggs, Wayne (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-07 Description An account of the resource Wayne Skaggs was born in Stidham, Oklahoma, in 1949. He was drafted in February 1969 and sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for basic training then advanced infantry training. In July 1969 he was deployed to Vietnam and arrived on July 11. He was assigned to Delta Company of 2nd Battalion of the 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division at Camp Evans. For the duration of his tour he went on patrols around Camp Evans, went on mountain patrols, and in the spring and summer of 1970 patrolled around Firebase Ripcord. On July 1, 1970, the North Vietnamese attacked Ripcord and he was on base when the bombardment began. On July 6th his tour ended, and by July 9th he was out of the country. He did the last six months of his enlistment at Fort Carson, Colorado, which places his discharge date sometime in either January or February 1971. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skaggs, Wayne Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/31012a76c097d9d5cdc8f15d7f45984d.m4v bbf224827662f9c0776b9e5a58b7cbc9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/22b3d496a8e0e0caba0720c40699ca36.pdf a06ab61e72c6765c2b797fa71afd29bb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Marc Skinner Vietnam War 51 minutes 36 seconds (00:00:20) Early Life -Born in Richmond, Indiana in 1948 -Grew up in Richmond, Indiana and graduated from high school there in 1966 -Went to Ball State University -Stayed for a year and a half -Being in college protected him from getting drafted -His father was a printer -His mother was a beautician -She was a French war-bride from when his father fought in WWII -He had a younger brother and younger sister (00:01:41) Awareness of the Vietnam War -In his junior year of high school a teacher’s brother was killed in action in Vietnam -In high school that was the most exposure he had to the war -In Richmond they didn’t receive a lot of national news -Once he went to college he was able to find out more about the war (00:02:19) College and Dropping Out -At Ball State he majored in political science with a minor in physical education -For the first semester he lived in the dorms -In his second semester he joined a fraternity -He went from having a C+ average to a C- average -With his grades slipping he decided to drop out and try again after taking a semester off -He worked at a Burger King and prepared to go back to college (00:03:57) Getting Drafted -Because he dropped out he was eligible for the draft -He was drafted in late January (or February) 1968 (00:04:24) Basic Training -He was sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey for basic training -It was shocking to get rapidly immersed into Army living -Especially coming from a small town -For the first six weeks of training the trainees had to stay on the base -The physical training was challenging, but not impossible for him -He had an athletic background, so the training took some adjusting, but not too much -The toughest part of basic training was the psychological adjusting that had to take place -Trained with a mix of enlisted men and draftees -Everyone had their own story as to why they were in the Army -Trained with men from all over the northeastern U.S. and the northeastern Midwest -Basic training lasted eight weeks -During last week of basic training received orders for advanced infantry training �(00:07:28) Leadership Course -Before he went to advanced infantry training he took a two week leadership course -He had served as his squad leader while in basic training -Felt that being in a leadership position would allow for greater survivability in Vietnam (00:08:01) Advanced Infantry Training (AIT) -He took his advanced infantry training at Fort Dix -He was made a squad leader during AIT -They had been introduced to weapons and tactics in basic training, but AIT built on that -Began working with the M-16 assault rifle and grenade launchers -Learning how to build bunkers -Learning how to carry out field maneuvers -He also received land navigation training and map reading training -AIT lasted another eight weeks (00:10:04) Noncommissioned Officers Training (NCO Training) -At the end of AIT there were three possible routes that could be taken: -Go to Vietnam, Officers’ Candidate School, or Noncommissioned Officers’ School -Because he showed some leadership potential, he went to the NCO School -It was a twelve week course on how to be a squad leader -Land navigation training was heavily stressed -Had to go out at night and reach a destination with a compass in a limited amount time -Did team building exercise with other NCO trainees -Mostly involved obstacle puzzles and how to solve it with your team -Also received further hand to hand combat training -He received his NCO training at Fort Benning, Georgia -Learned how to rappel out of helicopters -The NCO training ended with him being promoted to the rank of E5 (sergeant) (00:14:25) AIT as an NCO -After NCO training he was sent to Fort Lewis, Washington to work with an AIT training unit -His task at Fort Lewis was to lead soldiers through AIT -Throughout his training experience the instructors had been Vietnam veterans -They mostly relied on scare tactics to train the recruits -He stayed at Fort Lewis for eight weeks (one training cycle) -By the end of all of his training he had already satisfied one year of his two year commitment -He just had to survive one year in Vietnam and then he would be discharged (00:16:00) Deployment to Vietnam -He left for Vietnam on March 31, 1970 and arrived in country on April 1, 1970 -He had been sent over as a replacement for a unit that needed a sergeant -Arrived in Cam Ranh Bay -From there went to Da Nang and spent a couple days there -His first impression of Vietnam was that it stunk -When he arrived he and the other replacements were greeted by soldiers that were leaving -The veterans greeted them with insults and slurs -Upon arriving he didn’t have any specific unit orders (00:17:50) Assignment to the 101st Airborne Division -In Da Nang he received orders to join the 101st Airborne Division -The 101st was based out of Camp Evans, so he went there to join them �-Upon arriving at Camp Evans he received Screaming Eagle Replacement Training Section -The course lasted about one week -It consisted of learning how to survive in Vietnam -One of their tasks during SERTS was to guard the camp’s perimeter -They also received an introduction to booby traps and how to recognize them -This also included a minor introduction to rural Vietnamese culture -The locals used primitive snares to catch animals (not booby traps) (00:19:55) Assignment to Delta Company -Before he arrived the 101st had already established Firebase Ripcord -In the process, Brave Company and Delta Company had taken heavy losses -His initial assignment was to Bravo Company, but then it was changed to Delta -At Camp Evans he was instructed to put together a rucksack -A rucksack usually weighed about seventy pounds after all supplies were loaded -Carried 3, or 4, inflatable one gallon rubber bladders for carrying water -Ammunition -Rifle cleaning supplies -Eating utensils and food -Water proof containers for documents and personal effects -From Camp Evans he was picked up by a helicopter and sent into the field -He was going to be a replacement sergeant for a squad in Delta Company -Specifically serving as an assistant squad leader -There were initially eight to ten men in each squad (00:23:05) Introduction to 3rd Platoon -The third platoon of Delta Company was the platoon that he was assigned to serve with -The introduction of him into his specific squad happened fairly seamlessly -He was placed in charge of five men out of his squad to help set up ambushes -He paid close attention and learned from the veteran soldiers in his command -The first thing they taught him was to not walk on the trails -The other thing they taught him was to always stay quiet, and always stay aware -Always made sure to settle disputes without having to rely on pulling rank (00:26:24) Operating Around Firebase Ripcord -Around every firebase there was what was called an area of operations -Companies would go out and patrol the surrounding area to keep the enemy away -Firebase Ripcord was located on the edge of the A Shau Valley (divided Vietnam & Cambodia) -Ripcord’s primary mission was to disrupt the movement of the North Vietnamese -One company would stay at Ripcord and the other four would go out into the field -While patrolling the Ripcord area they would generally run into small enemy patrols or bunkers -It was a mountainous region -Usually covered 1200 to 1500 meters a day in a straight line -In reality they covered roughly 5000 meters a day due to going up hills/mountains -They made sure to never camp in the same place for two nights in a row -They would leave their camp at 7/7:30 AM -Move to a new position and establish a camp site there -From there they would send out patrols -Squads were sent for a couple hours, or platoons for the whole day �(00:30:50) Enemy Presence around Ripcord -Routinely discovered North Vietnamese bunker complexes -If they did they would gather intelligence and look for signs of enemy activity -Never carried enough explosives to actually destroy a bunker -Instead they would throw tear gas canisters into the bunker -This would make it so that no one could truly live inside the bunker -One time they found a 500 pound unexploded American bomb -Checked it for booby traps and decided that it was still safe -Called in a team and a few days later it was destroyed by a U.S. team -In the field they kept track of any enemy positions they found -Once they were clear they would call in artillery on those coordinates -Not only to destroy the positions, but to send a clear warning to the North Vietnamese (00:34:02) The Battle of Ripcord -As the Ripcord Campaign continued enemy activity continued to increase -Eventually there were 10,000 North Vietnamese soldiers against 1,000 U.S. troops -It became clear that it would be physically impossible to hold Ripcord -At times they would be routinely cut off from being resupplied or getting help -The help that they did get was in the way of helicopters -Eventually the North Vietnamese could time when helicopters arrived at the base -Once the helicopter landed they would fire mortars at the landing pad -If a helicopter was destroyed as it landed they would lose those supplies -From mid-April to July 1970 he had been stationed at Ripcord without going to Camp Evans -This meant that you couldn’t get clean, or get fresh fatigues -Also meant that you had to use what was available in the way of supplies on base -Because of the lack of hygiene he wound up getting a parasitic infection in both legs -He was evacuated back to Camp Evans for treatment -Spent ten days in the hospital receiving antibiotics and special washes -Wound up missing the fighting on Hill 1000 (part of the Battle of Ripcord) -One of his best friends was killed in the fighting on Hill 1000 (00:39:46) The Fall of Firebase Ripcord -Returned to Delta Company the day of the first attempt to rescue Alpha Company -Alpha Company of the 2nd/506th of the 101st Division was trapped on Hill 902 [805] -The first attempt was not carried out because the landing zone wasn’t secure -The next day Delta Company was sent out and was finally able to rescue Alpha Company -He was on the first helicopter into the landing zone (LZ) -Alpha Company had been pinned for three days and had 80% wounded -When they reached the LZ he watched as Cobra attack helicopters bombarded the NVA -When he got on the ground he was able to disable a NVA machine gun nest -In the process he wounded in the leg and was evacuated -It turned out the wound had been minor and he was able to rejoin his company the next day -The day he rejoined Delta Company Ripcord was abandoned and destroyed by the U.S. -Firebase Ripcord fell on July 23, 1970 (00:44:38) End of Service with Delta Company -After Ripcord fell his company was able to go for a stand down at Camp Evans -Lasted five, or six, days -Men were starting to get into fights �-Racial tensions flared -His company was sent up to Firebase Kathryn which was in the hills near Camp Evans -It was a quieter area of operations than Ripcord had been -From Kathryn they continued patrols in the field -He received an R&R in mid-October 1970 to Sydney, Australia -Celebrated his twenty second birthday in Australia -When he returned from R&R Delta Company had a new commander -More inept than their old commander which made him uncomfortable (00:47:35) Serving at Camp Evans and End of Tour -He was able to get a reassignment to Camp Evans until his tour was up in mid-June 1971 -He worked with the S5 section (military-civilians relations) of Headquarters Company -He would go out with doctors to local villages to give aid to the people there -Basically acting as a security detail for the doctors -Never had any problems with the villages that they went to -Saw that the Vietnamese were just people trying to live their lives too (00:48:44) Coming Home and Life after the War -He left Vietnam out of Da Nang and returned to the United States -Upon returning to the United States he was honorably discharged from the Army -Returned to his hometown of Richmond, Indiana -After Vietnam, it felt like a very small town -He got a job in Indianapolis as a bill collector for a while -Returned to college for another year and a half, but never graduated -After Indiana changed its liquor laws women were more acceptable at bars -He got a job at the first singles bar that opened in Indianapolis -Worked in the alcohol service sector for thirty five years until he retired � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SkinnerM1686V Title A name given to the resource Skinner, Marc (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-11 Description An account of the resource Marc Skinner was born in 1948 in Richmond, Indiana. He grew up in Richmond and graduated from high school there in 1966, and then went to Ball State University for a year and a half until he dropped out. He was eventually drafted into the Army, and opted for NCO training, which delayed kept him in the US for a full year before he was sent to Vietnam in the spring of 1970. He was assigned to D Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division, based at Camp Evans. His company fought in the battles around Firebase Ripcord, April-July 1970. He later served in the battalion's headquarters company before returning to the US and getting discharged. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skinner, Marc Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14615bee1536364574dd0ee44c6caaad.pdf 41887eaaf761245ce30baedb863352f1 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kristine Skippergosh Interviewer(s): Adam Cutler, Michael Miller and Rebecca Stow Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: December 17, 2011 Runtime: 01:13:46 Biography and Description Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Transcript STOW: So… Could you start by just giving us some basic information about yourself, Full name, and date and place of birth? Also your parents and siblings. SKIPPERGOSH: Ok. Well my name is Kristine Skippergosh, um, I am originally from Grand Rapids. I was born and raised in Grand Rapids. Um, my dad is Gary and my mom’s Laurie. Um, I have three brothers. Uh, they are thirty-six, thirty-four and fourteen [laughing], big age difference. I have a niece and nephew who are three and one and a half. Um, they all live in Boyne City though…so… far away. Um, I went to Kenowa Hills high school, it’s in Walker…um, yeah *laughing+. STOW: So wha… what exactly is it that your parents do, or your dad (SKIPPERGOSH: oh um) what he does for a living? SKIPPERGOSH: He is an electrician for the city of Wyoming so… STOW: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, um, he went to an Indian Trade School for that, so… CUTLER and STOW: ok SKIPPERGOSH: Kind of interesting. Um, that’s where the Native American heritage is from, it is onehundred percent Native American so, CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm. Page 1 �STOW: What about your mom, is she…? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… she is *pause for thinking+ Dutch and French. *Laughing+ STOW: A pretty good variety. SKIPPERGOSH: Yep. STOW: Um… so, do you know what the Indian Trade School was like, for him? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… well, *multiple people talking+ he originally started at Northern Michigan University. He went there for his first semester. Um, I think he was actually going into elementary education…but, over his Christmas break my grandpa passed away. So then he moved to Arizona and he got married not long after he went down there. It was um… They were high school sweethearts. So (CUTLER: ok) and he went to the trade school down there and played baseball on their baseball team and I know he has an award down there, I’ve never actually seen it, but um, for outstanding academics and athletics, and he also has one at his old high school too, so… *laughing+ CUTLER: How many, how many years did he complete at Northern before he moved? SKIPPERGOSH: Just the semester CUTLER: Oh, so it was one semester… ok. SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, um… My grandma passed away when he was like, eight, so… when my grandpa passed away, he… decided to go elsewhere I guess, explore a little bit *laughing+ CUTLER: So did you have any family in Arizona or did he (SKIPPERGOSH: no) just decide to move out there. SKIPPERGOSH: Just went out there to the trade school… CUTLER: Wow alright. SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm, yep. It was… I don’t know if it was in Albuquerque… or just near, actually it was Mexico first. He was in the trade school, then he moved to Arizona for a little while, so… yep. STOW: So is that where he, like, completed his college education? SKIPPERGOSH: yep STOW: So how did he end up back in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, he first went… he is originally from Charlevoix, I guess I probably could have said that first [laughing]. Um, he was born and raised in Charlevoix, and he went back up there first to, I guess, look for work. Um, by the time he got back up there he was already, um, divorced, so he had two young kids, and was divorced, and, um, so he went back up there to look for work. There wasn’t really much of anything… and, he had friends in Grand Rapids, so that’s when he came down here. Page 2 �CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: So… mmhm. STOW: Um… so… um when his first marriage got, um, so was that to your mom or was (SKIPPERGOSH: no) was that someone else? SKIPPERGOSH: Nope, that was to someone else. My older brothers are half-brothers. CUTLER and STOW: Oh ok. SKIPPERGOSH: That’s why there is big age difference. (CUTLER and STOW: ok) Because we are thirteen and fifteen years apart… so *laughing+ STOW: So then he met your mom in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm, yep, um… It was through a mutual friend that they had, it was another Indian guy. And he was dating one of my mom’s best friends. So… (STOW: oh ok), they met through… through them. CUTLER: Ok… and what did he, um, complete his schooling for… like SKIPPERGOSH: Um it was actually, it was originally, he has a… like license in electronics. And then he also, um… it’s an extra license to do, like, traffic signals. So… (CUTLER: ok), he got that too. CUTLER: And then he moved back to… he found a job in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: Yeah, um, he actually… which, I didn’t know this until I interviewed him, but, he um, he did have a lot of trouble at the time because it [long pause] late seventies, early eighties there was, you know, there was still a lot of discrimination (CUTLER: yeah) and he had trouble finding work up North. So, when he came back down here he applied for a job, and I guess he got the job, like, on the spot… like through the interview. The guy just asked him. It was on a Thursday and the guy asked him if he could be there Monday morning. (CUTLER: Wow)… Yep! *Laughing+ CUTLER: So about the, about the discrimination… do… has your dad talked about anything like, that he, like about not being able to get a job? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, there’s actually… all through growing up he went through, I guess, he experienced a lot of discrimination (CUTLER: uh-huh). Um, he is one of seven kids, and in Northern Michigan there are a lot of Indian reservations. CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: And there is one in Harbor Springs. It’s right near Petoskey and Charlevoix. And that’s actually where we are, like, tribal members. Um… When my grandma passed away, since sixty-three I think, they said that um, like the government came and said my grandpa was un-fit to take care of the kids by himself. Because first he couldn’t provide enough money, but my grandma didn’t work, so… even when she was alive he was the, you know, the soul provider of income. Um… but, one of my Aunts at Page 3 �the time, I think she was already twenty, so she was out of school…and everything. And she offered to take care of the younger kids. CUTLER: There were seven kids? SKIPPERGOSH: Yes CUTLER: wow, ok. SKIPPERGOSH: Um, they are all about two years apart (CUTLER: ok) Um so there were still a couple of them. My dad was like, eight, and my other uncle was six. And I think my aunt was around ten so there were a couple of them still. Um, but they were also told that she couldn’t take care of them, so the younger ones went into foster care [long pause] yep. STOW: So SKIPPERGOSH: So I guess that was like part one [laughing] STOW: So what ended up happening with the foster care, how long were they… involved with that. SKIPPERGOSH: Um… my dad was thirteen when he got to go back to live with my grandpa so… not too long… but a few years. They were originally separated, and then they were finally like, found homes, where all three could be together. Because most families wouldn’t take in three kids because they said they would only take in one at a time or two. So they were originally apart for a while then they found families that would take all of them together. So… STOW: So, then what was it that allowed them to be able to go back to your grandpa. SKIPPERGOSH: Um… I’m not really sure. My dad’s not too sure. I mean he was still young. He was around thirteen, so… I guess they were just told that they could go back. Maybe it was just because it was only the three of them that needed taking care of. But, I mean they were going into high school or in high school already so… I mean being a little bit older, so… mmhm. STOW: So you said that was kinda part one, so was there anything in high school that happened? SKIPPERGOSH: In high school my dad was… I guess you could say he was quite an exceptional athlete. He still has track records that haven’t been broken yet. Um… and I mean he graduated in seventy-four. CUTLER and STOW: wow SKIPPERGOSH: So they have been standing for many years now. Um, but he played varsity basketball and football all four years, and in basketball, I don’t know about anything else, I don’t know if it was ever challenged. But at one point there were three Native Americans on the team. And they were told that there can only be two. CUTLER: Wow SKIPPERGOSH: So, um, my dad, obviously, ended up staying. But one of the other guys had to leave. And I think he wasn’t originally from up there, so he went back to wherever his family was. So… mmhm. Page 4 �CUTLER: So that was just the basketball team, but was there any other incidences other than that? SKIPPERGOSH: um, I don’t think it was… my dad has said before that there were always like teachers and stuff who would, you know, try very hard to keep them down and if they could, you know, keep them off the teams, like via grades and stuff, but, um… my dad has like a special reward, like, I guess it would be a replica of it, but it’s for outstanding academics and athletics and it was presented to him by the athletic boosters of the administration of the school because he was incredibly smart and solid in academics and also in sports. CUTLER: yeah SKIPPERGOSH: I guess he kind of got lucky. It was hard for them to keep him down and keep him out of everything because he was, you know, he was needed, especially in like track and football and (CUTLER: yeah) so… STOW: um, so, when, like with like teachers were there any that actually. I guess I don’t know how to phrase it. If he was being singled out I guess or were there like other people that he was friends with maybe that were going through the same thing. SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I’m not exactly sure about being singled out, but I know there was just a lot of discrimination in general against Native Americans. Like if they could stop them from graduating they would and, um… the biggest problem at the time was like during the seventies… I don’t know if you guys know too much about it but, um, but that was like the Native American movement, when it was all happening. And that was when the biggest turnover was like when it comes to laws and regulations. And um, the… um, reservations now have their own tribal police and all native American reservations are technically independent nations where the federal law does not apply unless there is a felony committed. So they have no jurisdiction (CUTLER: ok) So anywhere up there is tribal land and they were first establishing their police department and it was a big problem because as a tribal member, like even now, if I were to like, get pulled over for anything, all I would have to do is demand a tribal police officer, and the state police or whoever couldn’t do anything until a tribal police officer came. And they would have all authority. So it was… a really big deal up there. (CUTLER and STOW: uh-huh) because there were quite a few Native Americans. (CUTLER: yeah) And, you know, that’s where the majority of the reservations are from there to the UP, so I mean our tribe was just establishing all… you know, their rights. And you know, all of the financial situations were being settled because, um, if you live on or within a certain distance of the reservation up there, the Native Americans do not have to pay state taxes (CUTLER: ok) or the city, or like the village or whatever it is taxes. So, and it’s for anything… like your home, or buying a car, for gas or anything like that, so… it was… a lot of people didn’t like that (CUTLER: yeah) especially at the time. I mean. So it was, you know, anything they could do, like my dad always had trouble finding jobs and stuff, even when you were younger, and he worked on a lot of farms and did farm work. So, it was just a lot of the little things. CUTLER: So I don’t know if we’ve established this, but what tribe is your dad from? SKIPPERGOSH: Actually he is half Ottawa and half Chippewa, were members of the little Traverse bay band of Odawa Indians. (CUTLER: ok) It’s in Petoskey and Harbor Springs. And then, um, there is also Page 5 �another tribe that’s like associated with us and that’s the Grand Traverse Bay, and that’s in Traverse City. Um, I don’t know if you guys have ever been to the casino up there, but *laughing+ the casino is their casino. CUTLER: Um, so, during that time period, uh, where there was a big legislation that passed, was your dad a part of like, any groups that like groups that helped get that passed or like, any advocate groups er? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… not too much, I know my grandpa and um… and we have family members now that are on like, that are board members of the tribe and stuff like that or work in different members of the tribe. And one of my brothers is like, high up in the casino and so, um, but my dad’s he’s not too much, effects him personally. He kind of just let others take care of it so. And I don’t know if it really came down to there needing to be too much of a fight just because it was like Federal law that was passed. So there wasn’t really too much anyone could do but be mad about it and limit as much as they could. But otherwise it was not, you know, there was not much fighting that was needed because it was what it was. STOW: um so, just going back to the tribe. Was your dad always a part of that and then you… like when did you become a part of it SKIPPERGOSH: um, it was, the way it works is um, like when you’re born, there are forms to be filled out. And they have to be turned in within two months or so, of um… birth. And I’m pretty sure my dad was always a part of it. um, We don’t know too much just because my Grandma died, you know, he was so young, he doesn’t really remember her. Um, but her tribe, she was Chippewa, her tribe is in Berega, it’s in the UP near Marquette. Um but he doesn’t know too much about it. Um, most of, well I guess, just about all of my family is also a part of the same tribe. I just have some cousins who are part of the other one just cause their dad was originally was a part of it. So if you have like two parents who are both Indian and part of a Tribe, the parents can choose. And a lot of it comes, it obviously comes down to money and what has better benefits and stuff. Otherwise there is not too much choice, and to be a full tribal member you have to be at least a quarter of the tribe. STOW: Ok, So then what sorts of things are involved with being a member of it? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, well, I have an, I mean I have like a tribal ID card. It’s like a picture ID, I mean it’s very similar to like or Grand Valley IDs its not like super official. But It does like scan stuff, um. I can use it up there, there are two gas stations I can use it at, and I don’t have to pay the state taxes, on gas when I use it, um. Which is really nice. *laughing+ Um, they’re like I have a tuition waver through the govern, which like the government pays the state of Michigan pays um to go to school and I just have to be a full time student and I think I have to maintain a 2.0 GPA. So as long as your… passing I guess *laughing+ I mean, its not, you know, unfortunately it’s not too much of a big deal, but um, I also would get for grad school, they pay for that [CUTLER: ok, wow]um, I get a, I guess its more of a private scholarship its through or tribe specifically, but most of them have them, for, it’s like for certain people. Um, mine is the Michelle Chinglaw scholarship. She was one of your tribal board members and she passed away of cancer so they started a fund in her name, and it’s a per credit hour scholarship so depending on how Page 6 �many credits I take I get a certain amount of money and also it depends, I think there are four different ranks for schools um, there’s like, the smallest amount is for like a junior college or community college, then there’s more for a trade school and then slightly more for a four year university, then the highest is for a grad program. And then um… *whispering: oh what else+ um… there are a lot of, I guess for, its called the elders program. Once you reach 55 you get you can get free health care, dental care, all of that. Um, there um, they get like, its for heating and electricity bills and all you have to do is send in the like stubs for what you have paid for the year and they reimburse you five hundred dollars for it. Um. They will reimburse them for medications and stuff, if they hang on to those stubs for everything they have paid for medication, um they’ll reimburse you a certain amount towards that and I think there is also something with groceries, as well. As long as you hang onto, the, you know, again, the receipts and stuff, and what you’ve paid, it all just has to be mailed up there. I think it’s around Christmas time or something. That’s when like they pay out everything. It just all has to be sent up there by then. And I’m not exactly sure how much it is. All I know for sure is heating and electricity is five hundred dollars, um per year. Um, there is also which they’ve actually stopped it now, there was a trust fund set up for um tribal members and you didn’t get it until you were eighteen, and it like started out, um, I know it changed a little bit but it was originally just one lump sum and that was what you got and then they changed it. And it was, it started with that amount of money when you were born like when you were signed up for it and gained interest through that, so [CUTLER and STOW: ok] But that, I think they stopped doing that in ninety-seven because my little brother just missed out. On it. But there are still like you can open, you can like use the tribe for, like bank account type purposes, like you can set up a trust fund yourself through them and the interest rates are really, really high, so, um that’s what my dad has done for my little brother, so, he will still at least get something [laughing] when he turns eighteen. So STOW: Um, so, for you personally, did you ever experience any sort of discrimination when you were growing up or even now? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, every now and then, I mean, I try to be I guess as modest and humble about the things I get you know like I rarely talk about, you know, getting the scholarship that I get and the tuition waver. I mean, in all honesty in the end I essentially make money for going to school because of the scholarship is worth so much money. I have a lot that I hang on to in the end, which I save, I’m not out like spending it ridiculously [laughing], um, but um, I mean, there are some people, who, you know, I guess it’s, I feel like It’s somewhat common knowledge that people know or assume that Indians go to school for free, but I’ve had people like, almost make like snickering comments, about “oh you go to school for free” and, you know, when I mention that I’m Native American, so, um, but its, you know, that’s one of those things where… like at first I kind of cared, it kind of bothered me, but now it’s just one of those things where I’m like “whatever” *CUTLER: yeah+ you know, I mean, it doesn’t matter to me. I mean I’m going to, I mean it’s not going to make me not want to accept the money. I mean it’s a great opportunity, I mean it’s an incredible opportunity, to be able to go to college for free. And um, I’d rather not take advantage of that, I know a lot of people do which also gives like a negative stereotype because, essentially I could be going here and just, you know, squeezing by with bare minimum and continue to, you know, get my way though, I would probably not get a degree with that [laughing] Page 7 �SKIPPERGOSH: ...but um, also, sometimes people make comments about the whole casino thing because like we do make money off the casino but, people assume that, I mean there are tribes out there, don’t get me wrong, that their members are making sixty, seventy thousand dollars a year, I mean it is enough money to live off of, you essentially wouldn’t have to work but, I mean there are very, very few of them [CUTLER: Yeah] um, you could probably count on one hand how many there are in the entire nation, um, but I mean people just assume that I’m like, taking in all of this money every year and it’s, it’s not much money I mean, I get five hundred dollars annually, which I mean, it’s five hundred dollars, but still it’s, it’s no you know, ten thousand dollars a year or anything so a lot of people like, have I guess assumptions about it, and I think it makes them feel negative about it um, I think the biggest thing would probably be like, it seems like a jealous factor almost, like I don’t wanna talk it up that much like make myself out to be, you know, someone that I’m not but um, yeah I mean it’s mostly the comments that have to do with the whole money factor and um, I, I mean I haven’t had to deal with it as much but I still have family in Charlevoix and I know some of them have run into problems where, you know, where being Indian still isn’t ok, which you know, it’s either older people that feel that way you know, who when they were younger, you know, were I guess prejudiced towards Indians and still are but, I mean I try not to let any of it bother me because it’s not really affecting me, and there’s nothing anyone can do *laughs+ about it so, I mean I’m going to accept what I’m given so, um, but yeah I would say the biggest thing is just with money so, and I mean I’ve heard, people have made comments too about like my tuition waiver, how it’s their tax dollars paying for it and they don’t think that’s ok that they have to pay taxes for people to go to school but, again I mean, I’m not gonna not accept it *laughs+ and it’s not like I was, you know, I didn’t come up with these rules they were come, you know, the laws were established many years ago and they’re federal laws it’s not a state law it’s not, a city law so um, I mean I guess that’s the biggest thing. STOW: Ok... *clears throat, brief pause+ um, I’m trying to think do you have anything you wanna ask about? [directed towards CUTLER] CUTLER: Do you think, uh I guess do you think it would be different if it were not in West Michigan like do you think, do you think um, like there would be less discrimination somewhere else or is it like, is there more because it’s West Michigan or... SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I actually feel like in West Michigan it’s...less than it could be *CUTLER: Ok+ other places, um, there’s such a small Indian population just in the first place and um, I feel like a lot of people around here don’t, like probably couldn’t say they know very many Native Americans, if any at all [CUTLER: Mhmm] um, I mean I was one of...three that I knew of in my high school [CUTLER: Ok] and I graduated with over four hundred people *CUTLER: Wow+ so our high school wasn’t small. But, I mean there were, you know, it’s, they’re few and far between I don’t think there are very many that go to Grand Valley [CUTLER: Mhmm+ I don’t know the exact statistic but, um, I know they like push to get, you know, of course they’re pushing to get diversity anyways, but um, I feel like there are a lot of places where it would be worse but there are also a lot of, I mean I’ve learned a lot about it just this year too, a lot more than I knew before um, from my sociology class but, like a lot of the reservations, especially in South Dakota, and like more out west um, there’s one, Pine Ridge, their unemployment rate is at about eighty percent right now [CUTLER: Wow] um, their like casualty rate due to alcohol or like, car accidents Page 8 �with alcohol is above and beyond any other *CUTLER: Mhmm+ um, their suicide rates are obscene it’s just, I mean they don’t, they don’t have work, the government refuses to help because the way the laws are, the federal government does not have to help them [CUTLER: Mhmm] so, I mean their houses are falling apart, they don’t, they don’t have food, they don’t have anything their schools are you know, below any sort of regulation, and I mean out there it’s, the alcoholism rates are, you know probably higher than their unemployment rates unfortunately and um, it’s one of those things where, unfortunately it fuels the negative stereotypes, and makes especially people out there feel even worse about it and um, still the government you know, I mean I feel very fortunate to live in Michigan because the government is very accepting of Native Americans [CUTLER: Yeah] and very helpful but out there they refuse to do anything like on the tribal land they can’t get welfare or anything like that so in order to, you know those families who are struggling, they can’t get the financial help that they need unless they go off the tribal land, but they still have a lot of like sacred rituals out there and they still try to live you know, the way they’ve always lived and it’s, you know, it’s hard because you can’t have it both ways, so...um but yeah I feel very fortunate in West Michigan too, I mean I’ve never experienced anything like that’s truly affected me, um, I mean like I said at first you know, I didn’t really like the way people I guess reacted towards like the financial situations but now, I mean I can’t, I guess I’ve just realized I can’t feel bad for it, um, I can’t, you know, feel sorry that I’ve been given a great opportunity, so, and I’m not gonna, obviously I’m not going to pass it up just because other people don’t like it *STOW: Mhmm+ there are a lot of people who really think it’s great and really, you know, are like happy for me and other people but it’s just, I mean there are a lot of things and it, um...I guess in a way it makes me angry that there are so many people who just continue to fuel the stereotypes, um like I’ve said my family’s very big I’m one of forty one first cousins *STOW and CUTLER: Wow+ so it’s, it’s I mean it’s huge and I honestly can’t say I even know all of them *CUTLER: Yeah+ um, I, half the time I can’t even remember their names *STOW laughs+ just because there’s so many of us *CUTLER: Yeah+ and um, I’m probably one of less than ten who have actually gone to college. [CUTLER: Ok] So, I mean, and we all have the same opportunity [CUTLER: Mhmm] all being from the same tribe. So it, it you know it frustrates me that like, there are others who have the same opportunity but aren’t taking it and you know I have a cousin who’s, he graduated a year before me and failed out of the community college up north and actually has to um, he has to pay the tribe back, for all [CUTLER: Oh, wow; STOW: Wow] of his tuition fees because if you, you know, I mean the money does come through the tribe, but essentially it comes from the state of Michigan first [CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Mhmm] and if you fail out of all of your classes, they shouldn’t have to keep giving you money *CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Right+ but, I mean and he’s angry that he has to pay it all back but I mean, if you can’t keep the grades, and like, it’s even more sad, he took a guitar class and a ceramics class, and just like, classes that weren’t going to get him anywhere, he had no direction and he failed all of them! I mean, how do you fail a ceramics class [STOW: laughs] and guitar class when he plays the guitar already? *CUTLER: Yeah+ So, you know it’s just, it’s like I, in a sense I understand why some of the stereotypes are there and why people are angry, so, it’s, I almost, it makes me not be able to be mad either and not be able to be affected by it because, I mean, people think what they think because of what they see and obviously there’s not very good representation of things you know, going well and even, you know, in filling out, because I have to do all of my paperwork at the tribe, I have to go up there and get it all figured, filled out and like, set and everything like that and um, even there, like it’s, it’s almost sad how like proud they are and happy they are to have a tribal Page 9 �member going to school like I was kind of stunned by the way they were like, treating me and how excited they were for me just to be going to school and I just feel like it’s not, I mean, shouldn’t we all be going to school? [Laughs] You know, I mean, so um, in a sense, like, you know as unfortunate as no one should be discriminated against at all whatsoever but, there are reasons and you know I do understand why some of it is, why the negative stereotypes exist, because people continue to fuel them and, so... CUTLER: So, are you the first one of your siblings to go to, uh, to go to college? SKIPPERGOSH: Mhmm, uh my oldest brother did go to a trade school [CUTLER and STOW: Ok] so um, I mean that was, you know that’s as good as anything *CUTLER: Yeah+ he has, he does have a very good job, um, he is, actually I don’t really know how to word it, um he’s I guess the second supervisor of all maintenance at our tribe’s casino, so he oversees everything going on in the casino and in our resort as well [CUTLER: Ok] um he, at one point he owned his own plumbing business but, when the economy really started to fall it, you know, it wasn’t working out for him so that’s when he went to work for the tribe and um, he just actually over the summer got promoted to the position he’s in now um, but, um, my other older brother, again, like I’ve said it fuels the stereotype, he’s almost thirty five years old and doesn’t have it together, he doesn’t have a high school education either, he never graduated, so, um, uhhh it’s, it’s, it’s kind of almost, I feel like it, in a way it’s backwards from what most families are like just in general because usually it’s the kids are the first to go to college *CUTLER: Yeah] I mean my dad you know, has a good education and he has two different licenses from a trade school and um, he’s only, he works with the city of Wyoming, there are only three guys who have this license who work for the city so actually there’s only two now because one of them retired so my dad’s only one of two who is actually qualified to do any of the signal work [CUTLER: Ok] um, and the stuff that he does out there and um, I mean there’s a lot, a lot to know *CUTLER: Yeah+ so it’s like it’s, um, there’s a lot of, I think it’s physics and stuff that are involved and you know, a lot of math and all that stuff so, but um, yeah so I mean it really became a big deal for me to go to college and so, um, I feel like it, I’m sure my little brother will too because I’ve set the bar kind of high *Laughs+ for him so if he doesn’t um, I’m sure that’ll be an even bigger deal *CUTLER: Yeah+ but he’s, he’s an incredibly smart kid anyways, so hopefully! [Laughs] STOW: So why is it do you think that so many people don’t take advantage of the opportunity? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I really, I don’t, I have no idea, I mean...I don’t know how you couldn’t really, um, I can’t imagine passing it up, I don’t know how, like what there could be to justify *CUTLER: Yeah+ not, I mean you can go to any school in the state of Michigan whether it be the smallest community college, the smallest trade school or the absolute biggest university. Um, there’s no limit to it, you just have to be a full time enrolled student, um, you can go back to school with it, um so I’m really not sure why people don’t just take the opportunity especially I mean with the economy today you have to have a degree *CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Mhmm+ to do anything even, you know there are a lot of things like I’m going into psychology and I know that a bachelor’s in psychology does not mean anything anymore so I’m already you know, prepared to go get my Master’s if not higher like there’s no question about it but um, I mean, there aren’t, there really aren’t any like loop holes that could hold people back um, all of the tribes as far as I know offer scholarships so you can, you know, if you wanna go away to school you can have at least some money towards housing, it may not be everything but I mean, you can still take Page 10 �out loans like everyone else who goes to school *Laughs+ I mean it’s, it’s just one of those things where I just, I really can’t come up with a logical reason why, I mean everything’s there for you all I have to do for my stuff and I mean, it could be a little different for other tribes but I literally have to sign my name on a piece of paper. Every, I think it’s every school year I have to resign but, um, that’s about all I have to do. I have to put my birth date and my social security number and my address...um, and then I just, I have to get, Grand Valley has to send a transcript now every semester like obviously after your first semester of going you have to have a transcript sent up there and a, um, schedule for the semester, for each semester and it’s just so they can, they have proof that you are going to school for at least, you know, at least twelve credits or whatever it is at you know, other universities but I mean, it’s not hard I, I hand a form to Grand Valley and they take care of it, the registrar’s office, because it has to be officially sealed and signed by a register but, I mean, all I have to do is give it to them with my information on it and it’s, it’s just like it’s stupid easy *Laughs+ is the problem like it is stupid easy and people still don’t do it and I feel like it’s very frustrating for, you know for me as well because I don’t, I don’t, I can’t see why someone wouldn’t take the opportunity and you know and then they don’t take the opportunity and they don’t have work and they can’t, you know, I mean I can’t imagine anyone finding a job you know if you don’t have some sort of education because I think now even at McDonald’s you have to, you have to either be enrolled in high school or have a GED or diploma to work there so, there’s nothing that people can do anymore [CUTLER: Yeah] and why you would want to not go about it, I mean, do you guys have a better idea? *Laughs+ I’d love to know, but I, I can’t come up with anything and so...yeah. CUTLER: So, so where do you hope to work after you complete your schooling? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...I’d like to work in a children’s hospital. *CUTLER: Ok+ Um, like with the children and their families as a counselor um, I don’t have anywhere specific um, I mean I, I’ve grown up in Grand Rapids and like I don’t know if you guys are from the area...? *CUTLER: Uh, I’m not+ No? Um, well, I mean I didn’t even really know this until recently but Grand Rapids is, is the second largest city in Michigan *CUTLER: Yeah, yeah+ um but I’ve always felt like Grand Rapids is small, maybe it’s just from growing up here *Laughs+ um, so, I don’t know how I’d feel about being somewhere too much smaller, um, but, I’d like to feel open about it, I used to be very like, close minded, like didn’t really wanna leave too much but just as long as I’m in like a children’s hospital and you know, wherever the opportunities are I guess that’s where I’ll go and, so, I mean it also depends on where I’m at in my life at that point too, whether, you know like, married or what not [STOW: Right] but I mean, so, yeah just wherever it takes me I guess, wherever the opportunities are! [Laughs] [CUTLER: Alright] Mhmm. [Brief pause] STOW: Um, so, you said before, is most of your family, they’re all in the state of Michigan? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, there are a couple who aren’t, um it was actually after my grandma passed away, some of the older ones moved out of state, uh, my oldest aunt and my two...no...my oldest aunt and then, it was not the oldest uncle because there are only two girls but the next two uncles, they left the state and then my oldest uncle stayed to make sure everything was ok with um, my dad and the younger ones who were in foster care. Um, but they started in Chicago, and that’s where one of them stayed and so that’s where um... *Interruption of people walking through our room into a meeting room next door] Page 11 �Um, so...what was I saying...oh, um [CUTLER: About Chicago?] yeah, so one of them stayed in Chicago and that’s where he um, was married and like raised his family and so a lot of my cousins still live there, they’re mostly older though, they’re actually the oldest cousins, they’re in their early forties now, so it’s a very big age span too, um, but um, and then there are two of them now, one of my aunts and my uncles are in Arizona [CUTLER: Ok] so, um yeah and then the rest are here in Michigan. One of my uncles, it’s actually the oldest uncle, he never left Charlevoix, um, he went into the Navy for a while but always ended up back there, um, my dad is actually...he is, it’s kind of an ongoing debate/decision right now because the city’s making a lot of changes and my dad has enough years with the city to retire *CUTLER: Ok+ um, so he may do that and go back to the company he started working at because he’s only had like I guess two real jobs since he’s gotten his licenses, and um, so he may go back and work for them because they’re a contract company um, and he might just retire and then he wants to wait until my brother graduates, which is only four more years, and then he wants to move back to Charlevoix *CUTLER: Oh, ok+ so um, he doesn’t, I guess, I mean he’s become accustomed to the city, he’s been living in Grand Rapids for probably thirty years now, right around there but, he um, he doesn’t call Grand Rapids home, he still calls Charlevoix home *CUTLER: Ok+ so, he wants to go back up there and that’s where, um I guess, I don’t know if you guys know Northern Michigan very well but Boyne City is right next to Charlevoix *STOW: Mhmm+ and that’s where my oldest brother and his wife and kids live so, my dad is kind of at that point in his life, I mean he’s gonna be fifty six next week so he’s kind of like into that grandpa thing, you know, having the grandkids, like it’s a bigger deal than us now you know, he’s moved on from the whole kids business [laughs] so um, he really just wants to get back up there so... CUTLER: And is that in Northern Michigan or is that in the U.P.? SKIPPERGOSH: Nope, it’s in Northern Michigan *CUTLER: Northern Michigan+ um, it’s about, um, around an hour from the bridge. *CUTLER: Ok+ So...mhmm yup it’s really really nice up there *CUTLER: Ok+ so I guess I’m guessing neither of you have been up there? *CUTLER: No... STOW: I have!+ Oh, you have? *STOW: Yeah, mhmm!+ Oh ok, um, but yeah, it’s I mean they’re all smaller towns but they’re very, very touristy. [CUTLER: Oh, ok] STOW: So if you were to move out of Michigan like after college how would that effect your tribal situation? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, it wouldn’t effect...no, the only thing um, I guess the only like, restriction is when you’re in college, um, unless I can come up with an incredibly good reason and pitch it to the board why I would need to go out of schoo--out of state for school, otherwise I would have to stay in state in order to get, um, the like scholarship money and stuff and the tuition money, but otherwise there are really no limits to most of it. The biggest benefits are in um, like if you live up or near the reservation that’s where like the tax waivers and stuff like that come into effect, but um, there just aren’t very many opportunities anyways in Northern Michigan right now. So they’ve–my sister-in-law works in the hospital up there and um if I were to work up there I would get more money...like my income would be higher per year, but the opportunities anyways are limited, they’ve made major cuts to their hospitals and they don’t even have um like a nice anymore, if they’re you know, like the newborns when there are problems they have to– Page 12 �they’ll helicopter them to traverse so I mean they’ve cut just about everything they can, so, there just isn’t too much to do up there otherwise I might consider you know, toughing it out, getting used to like a smaller area but, otherwise I mean, like there are some things that, like i guess if I went to med school and became a doctor I could work for the tribe, like we have our own tribal doctors and um, there’s a dentist and all of that but otherwise I mean might as well go where life takes me [Laughter] so... STOW: Um, have you traveled much outside of Michigan? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...I mean I’ve been to like Florida a few times, I’ve been to Washington DC, I’ve been to Missouri a few times um and...I mean I’ve been out of the country just only a handful of times I’ve been to um, I’ve been to Canada quite a few times but that’s not a really *Laughter+ that big of a trip um, and then I’ve also been to the Dominican Republic once...um, yea that’s about it. STOW: So did you experience any sort of discrimination when you traveled or anything? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...no I feel like not very many people know that I’m Native American um, a lot of times if i have to go somewhere like going out of the country you need two like two picture ids besides your passport so getting into the dominican I did have trouble because usually I give them my licensee and tribal ID because I mean my tribal ID is probably my second best like legal document but um, in the Dominican they didn't know what it was i guess they didn’t really understand it so I had to give them my school id instead, um so that was kind of interesting but otherwise i think there are quite a few indians in canada so um they’ve never really questioned it i mean I guess getting in and out of Canada isn’t that big of a deal anyways I don’t know if either of you have been but... CUTLER: Yea only once. SKIPPERGOSH: Okay, I mean it’s not a huge deal...um I don’t know if it’s helped but when I’ve gone I went with my boyfriend and he’s from Mackinac City so and um his dad is actually a retired state cop and FBI agent, so they’ll ask him why he lives in Mackinac and he’ll say it’s because his dad retires from the state police and usually that’s all they need to know *Laughter+. But yea um, I don’t think that many people like with my dad he looks very very Indian, I know there’s something on here about pictures I’m sure I could get you guys pictures if you wanted like pictures of some of our family um, my dad and like my aunts and uncles look very Indian but I don’t think I do too much most people don't know um I’ve actually I’ve only had one person that I can recall tell me that I look Indian which I was very shocked, I was like “oh my gosh, you...you noticed that!” so, um, yea the discrimination isn’t too bad, I’m sure if I went out to South Dakota or something like that it would be much different because it’s a whole other world out there when it comes to like the Indian reservations and stuff so... STOW: Um, do you have any experiences with other people like within your family that were being discriminated against? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, well, I guess something more recent, I did wanna make sure that I talked about this too um...within the last I wanna say like may around 10 years ago not long after my dad started working for the city of Wyoming um, he did run into, I guess you could say, a major discrimination problem. Page 13 �CUTLER: Okay. SKIPPERGOSH: He ended up suing the city of Wyoming and um, like now, the way everything works, in order to get a civil rights case, like to actually sue someone for discrimination, it has to be approved by the sate government, like the governor and everyone actually has to actually approve it, it has to be voted on like through whatever there um, and he was able to come up with a civil rights lawsuit. CUTLER: So he got all that passed? SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, he got everything approved. What had happened was, um...I guess they way they hire like in his department in the city is very much there’s no...no matter how long you’ve worked, you know, as an electrician everyone or whatever, it doesn’t matter, everyone starts at step one and there are three like levels of...I guess like it, you know, it has to do with like pay too, you get paid more as you move up but you also like every year my dad has to go take like more classes and they have to, you know, with a trade school like with a licensee it’s very similar to like a teacher’s license with how they have to renew it every so many years, they have to go take, you know, a couple classes and stuff and so he has to do that every know and then. Well, they hired another guy in who was just coming out of trade school and um, my dad was already like, you know, had already moved up in rank well they put him at the same level as my dad. And um, I know there were other issues with the discrimination thing and um you know, he tried to just bring it to the city and you know, my dad is a very civil guy, he’s not gonna trow a big fit about it or anything but you know, he tried to respectfully ring it in and say “this isn’t ok, I had to start here, no one else should be able to start at the same level, at the same pay” and it’s an understandable argument obviously. And they denied his request so he got a lawyer and um, they came up with, you know, how it could be a civl rights case and you know, it had to be approved by the state and it was and he ended up winning against the city and um so, that was...I don’t remember too much, I was younger, I do remember him having a lawyer and um, having to go to court and stuff for it but, um, I guess I didn’t really know the extent to it but yea um, he did win the case against the city and so it was kind of a big deal and the guy had to be moved back down and my dad still doesn't like the guy *Laughter+ but that’s for other reasons too. Um, I guess, you know, I mean it wasn't fair just in general for it to happen so um, yea, that was probably one of the most significant things that I mean, it was only a few years after he started working for the city and he’s only been working there for fifteen years so it was very recent. CUTLER: So was that a really big deal throughout the city and stuff, the case? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I’m not too sure, I mean I’m sure in the sense that, you know, the like extent to which you have to like work to get a civli rights case, I mean that’s big in general so just ot have that against the city is a big deal and um, I mean to win it, you know it’s..like I know my dad, you know like because of that was slightly promoted but he didn’t take any money for it or anything like he didn't...it really had nothing to do with making money or profiting off of like winning this case or annoying like that but um, you know he..., um, you know he...um Someone enters room and interrupts interview. Page 14 �SKIPPERGOSH: Yea I mean the lawsuit the lawsuit wasn’t about like gaining money off it, he just wanted the respect and recognition that he deserved for what he had worked for. STOW: Um, so okay, you said that you’re a junior, right? SKIPPERGOSH: Mhmm. STOW: So, do you think that your experience at grand valley has been influenced at all by your background or any of those experience that you were talking about? Or how would you describe it in general I guess? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I mean I definitely like being at Grand Valley, um it was...I really wasn't sure where I was going to go to school originally like it was between here and state and Western and I’m really not sure why I chose Grand Valley but I did and I guess I...I guess I really liked the opportunities that I had in general I mean its very, there’s not a whole lot of diversity but there are, like they promote different things. Like actually this month is actually um, I’m not sure of the politically correct term for it but it’s like Native American history month or whatever it is um, so, they have like a lot of speakers coming to Grand Valley for it and there is like a Native American student organization or something but I’ve never actually been...I’ve found a lot of people to be very interested like especially professors and um, stuff like that um, I’ve learned a lot in a lot of my classes, like I was really surprised by the things I've learned like from my professors too about the Native American history and even in my sociology class right now it’s just an intro class but I’ve learned a lot of things that I never knew and my professor's like a really big advocate for minorities and you know for him its like a really big deal and um, so it’s been really very interesting like learning a lot of this stuff and um I definitely like that there are a lot of different cultures here, and I don’t feel like i stand out or anything I mean I don't fell like most people know that I’m Native American anyways but um, I think it’s just like, its a conversation starter, like I’ve met a lot of people who have never met someone who is Native American and are like incredibly shocked and surprised. I’ve also met um, he was an international student and he was I guess technically studying abroad for international business um from Spain and um, he did not believe at first that I was Native American, he did not think it was possible. In Spain they learn that there are no more Native Americans in the world, they are completely like, an extinct race. CUTLER AND ST OW: Wow. SKIPPERGOSH: Um so, yea it was, it was very like, moving to know that that’s what other countries teach and I mean it took a lot of convincing and like he originally took it as a joke when I told him that I was Native American and I really didn't understand that either and he kept telling me that it wasn't possible it wasn't possible, and so yea, I mean it was, that was different it was very very different, I mean like I knew that other countries teach their history different because it’s based more on their own history but I really really was very surprised that I mean they have no idea that Native Americans exist anymore and like it is a dying race, there are less than 2 million in the entire world like actual like I guess North American Native Americans, but yea, um I found that very interesting, so there are a lot of things we learn here [Laughter]. Page 15 �STOW: Um, so were you ever involved with anything, I guess, before college like with Native...besides your tribe, with anything along those lines? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, no not really um, I mean I’ve always wanted to do more with the tribe essentially. There’s actually, they have a class but it’s only taught up there um, but it’s to learn the native language which I think that would be incredibly fascinating um because its a very difficult language to learn and it’s not...I don’t know of any schools that teach it like any universities or anything like that and my family doesn't...one of my aunts knows it a little bit and um her husband knows it quite well he’s actually um, well he's now technically retired but he’s a native pastor so he knows a lot of prayers and stuff and he does um, like he’s done all of our, like he’s married all of our cousins and um you know weddings and funerals, he always does all of that, and he says like a lot of native prayers and stuff so that’s really interesting. But um, my dad doesn’t...he used to know the language, I guess my grandparents used to speak it a lot and like my grandpa and my uncles spoke it all the time I guess my great uncles, I guess my dad only knew it through hearing it, he didn't really know it besides that and he’s lost it all by know. I don’t really know too much going on, I mean this project is actual first thing I’ve been really involved in, um, so yea, because Melanie approached me about it last year when it was...they were just like talking about it and coming up with what to do for the project, so, you know, I was kind of excited to have the opportunity to finally like talk about it and I mean I don’t know if I have really too many interesting things but you know, I mean it’s kind of cool to finally be involved in something. STOW: Um, so some of the things that you were talking about like with your dad’s lawsuit and all of that, did any of that kind of shape how you viewed yourself, like when you were younger were you really aware of your heritage? SKIPPERGOSH: I guess the first time I really became aware of um, like almost being a minority and like how, I don’t know if I would say how different I was, but like it was um, we did a third grade project and I remember it so specifically, but it was like, it was when we were learning about like cultures and origins and stuff and stuff like that and we each you know, especially people who were in all–just a little bit of everything around the world, you had to pick one that you were most likely to identify with and we got these little printed out pictures and it was someone dressed like, like that, whether it would be German or Polish, or Chinese, or Native American so they were dressed in what you would almost–not stereotypical but I guess like the ancient or old or very cultural way. So we were each to like color them and decorate them and, you know, they had our names on them and they would hang in the hall and it was to show how we were all like diverse and we were all from different places and I was the only Native American. So it was, like I remember there was like a small part of me not wanting to be the different one because of course in third grade your like ten years old and no one wants to be different. So I kind of struggled with that and I remember my dad like kind of, talking me through it, like this is who you are and you know you can hide it or you can just be who you are and so I choose to just be who i was, and I remember like most people just colored theirs in and um, my dad’s always, you know, been like big into our educations and stuff and so we took one of his old old leather coats and we cut like a piece of it out and we put the leather on there like on the girl’s Indian dress that she had on and I put like real feathers on top on her little headband, so yea that was like the first time that I had actually like realized that I was different from everyone else and that I wasn’t the same because I mean I’d always Page 16 �known you know, like I could recognize myself even then people who were like African-American or Asian but I didn't exactly see myself as different then, so, that was the first time where it was like eyeopening especially at a young age and it was hard to deal with for a minute, you know, I mean, being different isn’t, like I said, you know, I’m sure we all remember it’s not fun being different at that age, but, it was, it was an interesting experience, I still remember it so specifically, so...yea. If you guys have any other questions that aren’t on here feel free to ask anything, I mean I’m pretty open about whatever. STOW: Um, I’m trying to think. Um, CUTLER, do you have anything else? CUTLER: No, I don’t really have anything else. STOW: I think we’re probably good. CUTLER: No, I don’t really have anything else. STOW: I think we’re probably good. CUTLER: Yea, I think so. SKIPPERGOSH: I mean, if you guys feel like you have enough to use to write your paper, is that what you were–do you just have to write the paper? STOW: Yea, we’re just transcribing it and then we just have to do a short presentation. Oh ok, so, I mean, if you feel like you have enough for it, if there’s anything else, I mean you could always email me and...if there’s anything else then, um yea that’s about it. My last name is Native American so, that too. I don’t know if that’s interesting, but people ask that all the time *Laughter+. STOW: I think that was really good though. CUTLER: Yea, thank you very much! SKIPPERGOSH: Yea no problem, I’m glad I could help you guys and sorry I wasn’t getting back to your emails very quickly, I was–I’ve been so busy lately and I’ve been trying to talk to Melanie too and get back to everyone so... STOW: Oh, that’s fine. SKIPPERGOSH: Well good luck transcribing it! CUTLER: Thank you! STOW: Thanks! END OF INTERVIEW Page 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/27101735b8e430db2cfd00c3e1fda3b9.mp3 bc8730775b653d3fc6a962432ff90e64 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Skippergosh_Kristine_1 Title A name given to the resource Kristine Skippergosh audio interview 1 and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skippergosh, Kristine Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cutler, Adam Miller, Michael Stow, Rebecca Description An account of the resource Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination against Indians of North America Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fae970e8fd5f11c8d151c77c3e7c7d7a.pdf 3c777a99a839530b241ef1d468f7ab53 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kristine Skippergosh Interviewers: Alyssa Rogers, Cailie Johnson, Stephanie Johnson and Lyndsay Rhenshaw Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/2/2012 Runtime: 01:04:51 Biography and Description Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties she faced regarding race in her early years. Transcript (Talking at beginning of interview between Kristy and interviewer) Kristy: We could always do it on my computer...I don’t know how...I have a mac and it has like the recorder program Interviewer: Oh right Interviewer: See but it’s got like the time thing... Kristy: But I don’t know how work it (laughing). Interviewer: I think we’ll just give this a go. I appreciate it though. So are we gonna get started here? Alright, well my name is Cailie Johnson. I am here today with Kristy...uh Skippergosh (laughing). Yes, uh... we’re here to talk about your experiences with civil rights in western Michigan. So, if you don’t mind we’re just gonna start broad, you know, what was your childhood like? Kristy: Umm, well I grew up in Grand Rapids. Umm I have 3 brothers, two older and one younger...grew up with both my parents. Umm, not too exciting I guess (laughing). Interviewer: Noooo? (laughing) Are there any like childhood memories, you would say, that you think fondly of? Kristy: Umm, I definitely love to play outside as a child. I was big into playing in the dirt and...wrestling around with my brothers outside (laughing). I was always hanging out with the boys, and doing that kind of stuff so... Interviewer: Alright, very good, if you don’t mind we are just going to jump right into, umm was there a particular moment either growing up or you know in your adulthood that you felt different or that you were treated different? If you don’t mind talking about you know who your Page 1 �identity, and that kind of thing. Kristy: Yep, umm...I think actually the biggest moment and I remember it so specifically was when I was in third grade, we were like learning about culture and like different ethnicities and things like that, and we had this big like, I guess it was throughout the entire third grade, a big project, where we had to choose our primary, umm...I guess...ethnicity or like orientation. And we would get a picture of someone like traditionally dressed from that country or wherever it was and you had to like decorate it and they were all hung in the hall. Well, I was the only Native American...out of all of the kids. I mean there were was three third grade classes of like almost 30 kids each so like probably around 90 kids and I was the only one that was like, I never really...thought about it before. Like I knew I was somewhat different but...I didn’t realize I was completely different from everyone else and it was kind of like a big deal I guess...so. Interviewer: How would you describe like the neighborhood where you grew up? You know like was there a lot of diversity? You said you were the only one in your class... Kristy: Umm...I would say it was primarily white, I mean a few, like a few Mexicans, or Hispanic families lived in the neighborhood and a couple of black families, but...as far as I know we were the only Native American family, so... Interviewer: Now did your parents bring you up in the traditions of Native Americans? Kristy: Umm...My dad like he doesn’t know a ton, but like what he knows we always talked about and he’s explained a lot of different things to me. Umm...he’s actually 100% Native American, my mom’s not at all. Umm...so like there have been little things we’ve always gone to powwows all my life. So that was always a big thing like in the summer, going to powwows and stuff like that...so Interviewer: Can you describe those powwows a little bit more? Kristy: Uh yea. Umm...it’s just kind of like a big gathering, umm anyone’s welcome. They have 2 here in Grand Rapids I believe. There is one the spring and one in the fall. Umm...and there’s like a big circle in the middle where there’s traditional dancing and traditional tribal music. Umm...and like it’s kind of...a cliché thing that people say, but they actually do it, they dance to the beat of the drum, Umm that’s like a big tradition and then set up all around it are...a bunch of like...I always call them trading stations, there are like people like make a bunch of homemade stuff and you just walk around to each of the little stands and you can buy whatever they’re selling so. There’s jewelry, and like picture frames, and shirts and all sorts of stuff so... Interviewer: Ok, now did your dad encourage you to learn more about your heritage would you say? Was he, you know, was he willing to teach you, that kind of thing, like share stories? Kristy: Umm...yea he’s always I guess...his stories aren’t exactly the happiest. But like he’s always told me stories about like of growing up. He grew up in northern Michigan umm...on tribal land. So...he’s always been more than willing to talk about that. Umm...like I said, we don’t practice too many traditions really...umm...like very few things, like at funerals, there are minor things that we do different or like on top of a regular funeral and at weddings, but that’s about it. Interviewer: Ok, are there a couple stories that stuck out to you that your dad’s told you over the years? Page 2 �Kristy: Umm...well I guess it was like a big part of his life when he was...either 8 or 9 years old, around then. Umm he’s one of the youngest of seven kids. Umm his mom died, and...she was in a car accident and ended up drowning in the lake. Umm all of the kids who were younger were put in foster care. And my oldest aunt at the time was I believe 20 and umm...the government had said that my dad, or my grandpa was unfit to take care of the kids by himself because he wouldn’t be able to provide enough income to feed them. But my grandma didn’t have a job, which was kind of interesting, so she never worked, so he was always the sole provider. Umm...and my aunt also offered to take care of the younger kids...and they said that that wasn’t allowed. So the ones who were young enough were put in foster care and the other ones were allowed to...go on their own...so Interviewer: Wow...now do you think there was any kind of discrimination in there at all? Kristy: Umm...yea definitely...umm.. at that time...it was in...the early 60’s. Umm...there were a lot of like civil rights movements with Native Americans all over the country. And...that was when our tribal police department was first like...making its stand I guess, up there, and they were making their post and...umm... tribal police are not under the jurisdiction of any other government officials. Umm...they have all say when it comes to tribal members...umm... so if you’re, if you’re a tribal member and you’re pulled over up there you can demand tribal police and...the state cops or whoever it is can do nothing more. So...no matter what the, unless it’s a felony that is committed, the tribal police have all the say...so.. Interviewer: Wow Kristy: Um huh, so that was kind of a really big deal, and there were a lot of...people mad about it I guess...so Interviewer: So what happened to your dad after this whole you know, rearrangement? Kristy: Umm...he was in foster care until he was 13...umm...all of the kids are about 2 years apart...so there’s one younger than him and then one older than him and they were for the most part together...all of the time. Umm...I believe at first they were split up for a while...until they could find a family that would take all three, but I guess it was hard to, which I believe it is still hard to find families who will take multiple children. Umm...most of the families that he stayed with were, umm on farms, and they had to do a lot of like the farm work and stuff, so that was always their chores and they couldn’t do anything until that was done and...things like that so... Interviewer: Right so did he eventually get placed into a permanent... Kristy: Umm...once he was 13 he was able to go back to live with my grandpa so, I’m not sure how long they stayed at the other homes. It, so it seems they kind of bounced around a lot so. Interviewer: Ok, and then he spent the rest of his...13 on up on the reservation right? Kristy: Yep, well it’s tribal land, it’s not actually the reservation...but um he grew up in Charlevoix and most of the land up there is tribal land so... Interviewer: Alright...now we’ll kind of get a little bit broader for a second and then maybe get a little more narrow, but how would you say, you know with hearing some of the stories from your father, and thinking about you know nowadays, how would you say Native American treatment has changed? You know when you hear your dad’s stories and when you think about how you grew up. Page 3 �Kristy: Umm...I think it’s definitely much different, I think it’s much more accepted. Umm...I’ve really never run into major problems. Umm...like my dad’s talked about, like, the problems have followed him all the way through school and high school. There were only allowed to be 2 Native Americans on the like sports team at a time. And he talked about there was one time, I believe it was his junior or senior year in high school there was a 3rd kid on the varsity basketball team and...the three of them were sat down and told one of them had to leave...because it wasn’t allowed. Umm..so I mean I never really experienced...anything significant...umm...I think more people seem, I guess, excited about it. Like I, all the time, people tell me they’ve never met anyone who is Native American before so...umm... I also...freshman year here...I had kind of an...I would say it was enlightening. I met an international student from Spain...and...in Spain they’re taught that Native Americans no longer exist...they were all killed off in the wars. And he did not believe that I was Native American, like it couldn’t be possible, they don’t exist anymore...It was kind of a frustrating situation to try to explain to him that I was Native American and he was very adamant about it, that it was absolutely was not possible, there is no way. And so that was...kind of interesting. I mean I had no idea but, umm as far as I know most European countries teach students that all of the Native Americans died off in the wars...so... Interviewer: That’s crazy. Kind of going off that like, has there been times, you know, we’re learning in class about the whole pilgrim thing, you know Kristy: Um hum Interviewer: Like the disparities and what actually happened and what we’re taught. Kristy: Um hum Interviewer: Did you grow up, you know, hearing about this Thanksgiving, and going home and having you know, your father go “what”? Kristy: Actually, see my dad’s never really like corrected any of that. I mean we do a, you know traditional Thanksgiving dinner like everyone else you know, tons of food and stuff. And I actually did not learn until I was in college what the real Thanksgiving was like. And I was, I was kind of shocked and...I almost thought like...I feel like it’s kinda funny that my dad still like...he loves Thanksgiving...he looks forward to it every year (laughing). It’s just, it seems kind of ironic...I mean I’m sure he must know...what happened...but...I don’t know it just...it seems so weird to me that like we would still celebrate it. I mean all of our, every now and then the entire family will get together, as many people as we can and...we all love it so (laughing)...why not? Interviewer: Right...I know we’re talking about Thanksgiving and you said some funerals are different...are there any other customs that you can think about that your family has celebrated differently then maybe we may have? Kristy: Umm.......not in particular. Umm...I think a lot like with like...I guess the ceremonies, like funerals and weddings. It may be a little bit different for my family specifically. One of my uncles is a, umm he was a pastor at a Native American church. So he knows a lot of like the prayers and stuff, in our native language. So we do, like we...say those. I’m, I don’t, I guess he says them. Umm...he’ll go through like different...speech type things in the native language at both. Umm...and at funerals...umm...I guess it depends on the time of year...umm....but we will Page 4 �have, you burn a fire for three days...like a, like a bonfire type of thing, and it has to burn for three days straight, and someone always has to be there watching it and it’s supposed to be like the family elders. Umm...and then on the final day you have a family meal together... and the first plate prepared is for the person who died. And everyone eats, and then the plate for the person who died goes in the fire, and then the fire is...put out with water...so Interviewer: That is really interesting Kristy: Mm hmm Interviewer: That is...So how would you um you know has your growing older learning more about your heritage how would you say you developed kind of take us from you said you were in 3rd grade your finding out you native America to today when your finding out the real thanksgiving you know kind of that transition? Kristy: Yea um I defiantly like I feel like I was very sheltered from the real situations that had happened um I guess I didn’t realize it was as hard for as many people as it was like I had always known that it was like difficult growing up as a native American you know before and like now the more I learn about it the more I almost like feel bad that I hadn’t known before like I just thought everything was fine and not that big of a deal and um like known I’ve learned about a lot of the reservations especially out west there are some of them that are like 80 to 90 percent unemployed. And um Indians reservations are considered um there own nation so the federal government can only intervene when there ids a felony committed so they don’t have to provide assistance to people they don’t have to provide food stamps or welfare or anything g like that at all they don’t have to provide schools they don’t have to provide anything so it defiantly the more I learn the more I think of it differently Interview: So going back to kind off your dads family dynamic and where you come from now you said the siblings were scattered what’s that like now were they able to kind of you know come back together? Kristy: Um yes and no um a couple of the older ones actually they went first to Chicago and one stayed in Chicago and the two other ones went to Arizona and um one of my uncles who was in Chicago he passed away about 4 years ago now and before that I believe it was close to 20 years before they had…. um all taken a picture together and that’s the last time they had all been together, all 7 of them. Otherwise like they had seen each other periodically and sometimes like 4 or 5 would be together but never all 7. So I mean they keep in touch they talk a lot, my dad’s really close to, um the ones who are still in Michigan, especially um my uncle and aunt who he was in the foster homes with. And then one of, it’s my oldest uncle, he actually stayed up north when the younger ones were put in foster care to make sure that they were okay so and after I believe it was once my dad was in high school then he went into the navy but like he made sure to stick around to make sure everything was okay and he still kind of makes sure everyone everywhere is okay so. Interviewer: Sounds like there is a real sense of like family. Kristy: Mmmhm Interviewer: Do you get that form Native American culture? Kristy: Yea. Yes. Definitely. Yup, I mean there’s still like in our family and there are a few Page 5 �people who keep their distance but we have a very large family. Interviewer: All right well if we kind of go broad again um talking about a big question I had was about media in the society. You know growing up in the age we have how do you feel like the Native American cultures been portrayed good bad that kind of thing? Kristy: Umm I guess I’ve I haven’t seen too much in the media but I think a lot of like there are some people that I've run into who do see it like see a lot of bad things. Like I’ve had negative comments about like the whole casino thing and like all the money that you lose go back to our pockets and a few people have made like rude comments about it. But um and then like there still like with the whole affirmative action type of thing and like even with that being gone um do to like the treaties that were signed whenever they were signed the government still has to pay for our school and nothing can like break that. So I feel like some people have resentment towards it like I have run into people who have made like they just mean things about it I guess but I guess I don’t really care.(Laughing) Interviewer: Right Kristy: So um but yea otherwise like I don’t really see too much in the media um maybe the biggest thing is often which it’s not exactly untrue but Native Americans are seen as like having alcoholism and like problems with alcohol but the statistics do show that it is true .I mean so, its I guess ,it’s just difficult that that’s all that’s ever shown and like unemployment and stuff like that so but I mean I feel like it’s no different than any other society with poverty. Interviewer: Now have you or maybe your dad um connected I guess like with a community you know advocate anything you know that kind of is he a part of any groups would you say? Kristy: Not really um but he’s definitely willing to stand up for himself. Like he does not take anything um about 10 years ago he sued the city of Wyoming for a civil rights lawsuit um he was and I don’t know all of the details but he was discriminated against and he um got a lawyer and a civil rights has to be approved by the state in order for it to go to court and it was approved and he won so I mean he’s just he won't take it from anyone at all um I know in school he had a hard time also like with the whole sports team thing um teachers would tell them that they would fail them in order to keep them off the sports teams and my dad played varsity basketball , football all 4 years of high school was all state all four years of high school in track um he also played baseball he played I believe he played baseball at the trade school he went to um he like he was recruited to tons of schools he was actually recruited to Harvard to play basketball after college but he didn’t want to wear a suit and ties the rest of his life so hahahah so he didn’t go um like that’s his only reasoning I guess. Interviewer: Will go with um has anyone in your life um encouraged you your dad other relatives to learn more about it? Kristy: Um my dad does in kind of subtle ways um in Northern Michigan the community college up there I'm not exactly sure what it’s called they offer language classes and my dad’s kind of like wanted me to go take them and um I believe they have 5 classes for it and um he also like he’s talked about um me working for the tribe after college because we have like there are medical staff they have like everything that I mean we have dentists and doctors and psychologists and all sorts of things and he would love for me to go up there and work for them Page 6 �but I don’t really know if that’s the place for me so um well like its mostly in subtle ways um I’ve had a few professors also like encourage me to learn more and like I kind of think it’s more of them being interested and wanting to know like through me but um yea that’s it that’s about it one of my brothers he at one point started learning some of the language quite a few years ago and wanted me to also learn it but it’s very difficult to learn especially on your own so I never really got into it I kind of wish I had but hmmmhm. Interviewer: What would you say it was like growing up you know with your dad you said being 100% Native American and what’s your mom’s nationality? Kristy: Um I believe she’s German and French. Interviewer: Oh okay so how’d they combine that I guess and raise a family? Kristy: Um I guess it wasn’t too difficult um I think the biggest problem my family had was with religion um my dad originally like before the foster homes was brought up catholic and stock with that and my mom was raised Baptist and they're very different and they could not agree at all um but otherwise I mean I would say it was very similar to anyone else I think (Laughing). Interviewer: So back to the professor you were talking about professors do you ever get this sense like you said kind of wanted information through you? Has there ever been that kind of thing were okay they need a question answered about Native Americans so hey they pick you out, have you ever felt like that? Kristy: Yes kind of um I've it’s more of like hinting at maybe I should talk to my dad about something or they would love to know what my dad thinks about something or they would love to know how my family would you know dealt with something. I mean I don’t I don’t find it offensive at all I mean most the time I haven’t thought of the question myself and then become interested in knowing but um often though I guess the professors who want to know things also usually more than I do in other aspects of it like of the culture so it’s kind of like it more personal questions rather than like broad about the culture itself like maybe how just my family has dealt with something or how they would deal with something or so instead of like actual facts about things that have happened if that makes sense (Laughing). Interviewer: Yea it does. So at grand valley do you really you know connected with other Native Americans is there any kind of group that you’re a part of? Kristy: Um I'm not a part of any groups um I only know of one other Native American kid here. I mean I know there are quite a few but I've only actually met one other person um and he actually approached me after class one day and um because I had commented on something about being Native American and so he came up to me after class and kind of asked about it and it was interesting because I really don’t know anyone else who is native American besides my family so it’s kind of its different talking to someone from like a different tribe and the different things that like they have for school and like deal with for school like he said he can’t take summer classes his tribe won’t pay for summer classes or anything like that and just like I guess the subtle differences and but yea and the only the one person I believe there I think there is a club or something a Native American club but I haven’t really looked into it so it kind of scares Page 7 �me though (Laughing) like I feel like it’s going to be like one of those native pride clubs type of things and I just hahha that’s a little bit above and beyond me. Interviewer: If you don’t mind going kind of back to your dad a second um you know you mentioned some of the things that he went through are there any other stories you know that stick out you know I'm very interested in what life was like growing up for him Kristy: Yea um lets see I know he mentioned like he told me one time about because I did I did this same interview with him when I took the class um so he had mentioned like the part about just learning you were different um and it was when he was young he would like you know the kids go play baseball or whatever well they went back to one of the other kids house to get something to drink after words and the parents told my dad he was not allowed to go into the house and he had to drink from the hose outside but all of the other boys could go inside and it was because my dad was Native American so he wasn’t allowed in the house and he like said that that’s always stuck with him which I can’t imagine how it wouldn’t um so I thought you know that was definitely interesting um he said just like little things going like in school with sports teams and stuff teachers would try as hard as they could to get them off the teams if they could and my dad actually ended up graduating um we have um the actual plaque at our house now and he graduated with honors and academics and athletics and he was the only one presented with the award I believe he was maybe second or third in his class graduating um he still holds two track records at the high school that have yet to be broken um so I mean it was, he’s definitely if you tell him he can’t do something especially because he’s Native American he’s definitely going to do it um so I mean I know he said he was worried when he moved down to Grand Rapids about getting a job because he had a hard time the reason he moved down here was because he had a hard time up north and a lot of times they would flat out tell him because he was Native American and this was in like the mid-70s so it wasn’t that big of a deal to tell someone because of your ethnicity we can’t hire you um but when he came down here he said the first job interview he had he was hired on the spot so again it’s just one of those things where you know he seems to find the good in it um but he did say that people used to um make comments when he was working he’s an electrician so he works outside and um people would often make comments about why he had the job and they didn’t and why they would let him work and wouldn’t give them the job and just comments like that but I don’t think he really cares hahaha um lets see he also talked about when he first moved down here he lived with a family friend until he could get himself established get a job make some money and get his own place um and the guy happened to also be native American and he said that he kind of like showed him around told him the bars you could and couldn’t go to um I guess if you know any sort of trouble in a bar or whatever started you know just leave right away because you they would always the Native Americans would always be arrested no matter what so it was always there fault so he knew the places he could go to the places he couldn’t go to and um but like now it’s much different so and then yea like he sued the city and so I wish I knew more about it but um I know that with the whole lawsuit a big part of it was in his because he works with traffic signals and stuff like that um he has theirs like a electricians license and there also a traffic signals license that you have to have and my dad has both but he also has an engineering license with Page 8 �electronics and they have at the city they have like a ladder of how you move up and everyone starts at the bottom everyone starts at like level one and you have to take so many classes to move up...umm...well they hired a guy right out of traded school who did not have the, all three licenses as my dad did but they put him above him and like all of their contracts say that they have to like everyone starts at the bottom no matter what...umm...I don’t know what else happened with that I don’t know what you know the details about the actual civil rights part...how he was discriminated necessarily when it came to race but...something was there (laughs)...and it worked so...umm I know during that too he said a lot of people told him you know he he shouldn’t be suing the city because they were just going to fire him but... he said he knew better because there was no way the city would fire him when he is suing them for discrimination so... which they didn’t (laughing)...so umm...umm yea...that’s about all I know for the most part..umm...I don’t think there is anything too major for trade school he went to school in... New Mexico I believe and it was a native trade school so obviously he fit right in there (laughing) so but umm yea that those were like the major things I would say Interviewer: Do you feel like he sheltered you from the civil rights law suit at all I mean how old were you, you know, kind of to paint the picture Kristy: I was, I was probably ten...so I remember it all happening I remember him having to go talk to lawyers I remember him having to go to court I remember all of it happening but and I feel like he probably did tell me but I just had no idea what any of it meant nor did I really you know at the time I probably didn’t really care it wasn’t a big deal to me I mean I was too worried about whatever else (laughing) I had going on at that age...umm...so yea I mean I remember knowing about it I remember him like having paperwork and I believe once or twice the lawyer came to our house and I remember them like having to sit down and all of that but I didn’t really know what was going on so..but yea I don’t think he so much sheltered me.. I guess...I believe I did know that it did have to do with discrimination but I don’t think I really understood what that meant exactly anyways so... Interviewer: You said that you know your dad obviously didn't put up with much with this lawsuit did that affect your upbringing did he really you know press it upon you that if you are ever put in this situation you stand up for yourself Kristy: Yes, yes that that’s always been a big deal...umm..I mean some of its come from my dad has only two sisters and there are five boys and I also have three brothers so I’ve always been taught you know you stand up for yourself no matter what...and you know you do what you have to...umm...I mean like they my dad never he didn’t like advocate for violence but he always told me like if people say anything like you know way out of line don’t be afraid to hit someone like don’t be afraid to push them down I mean like I u know at the time like I thought it was great like my dad was telling me I could do this it was awesome but like now I understand like especially seeing the things that he went through like I can’t imagine he had it easy I can’t imagine that he didn’t have to stick up for himself in that way often growing up to so...like I understand where its coming from now I never had to do any of that..umm.. I never really found it a big deal and most people like I guess you can't tell I am Native American most people don’t know I’ve only had one person ever say that I like without knowing say that I look Native Page 9 �American so...I don’t think people really it’s not as easy to tell so...I’ve never really dealt with too much I’ve never really had to deal with it..umm.. but yea he’s definitely told me to stick up for myself do whatever I have to do to stand my ground and...so..I guess I have for the most part but most things don't really bother me so I just let it go Interviewer: Right...what about your older brothers...you have two older brothers right? have they ever come across anything Kristy: Umm...I’m I’m really not too sure...umm..one of them he kind of likes to pick fights with people anyways...he’s just that kind of person like he’s just always far superior to everyone so I really I don’t know much about the actual discrimination but I’m sure..I’m sure they’ve dealt with it to an extent umm..especially because they they are quite a bit older they are 35 and 36 so...they grew up in a much different time and I feel like things were probably still worse then..so but I don’t I..I don’t know of much..umm My oldest brother...I couldn't say much about I mean he works for the tribe now so I know he’s not dealing with much anymore but...umm they both did grow up in Northern Michigan though so Interviewer: Other than the Pow Wows you talked about that are in West Michigan..are there any other kind of you know activities that maybe your family goes to are there any kind of you know awareness I guess about it in West Michigan Kristy: I, I'm really not sure...umm..in the fall I got an email from...it was from I believe the education department at our tribe and they did have umm it was like a dinner or something like a banquet type night down here it was at an elementary school to raise awareness umm..about the Native American culture to like younger kids I didn’t actually end up going which I kind of wish I had but I don’t really know much more about it so I think they’re I mean they are starting to do more they are trying to do more...umm..but otherwise yea we..there’s..we go to our tribes Pow Wow every year...umm but that’s up north..but otherwise in West Michigan all I’ve really ever done is gone to the Pow Wows and I don’t really know too much more of what they have going on...so I’m sure, I’m sure there must be stuff but I’ve never looked into it so... (silence) (Laughing) Interviewer: About your tribe...what’s the name of your tribe and you know how is it I’m new with this so how does it kind of differ from other tribes that kind of thing Kristy: My tribe is the Little Traverse Bay Band of Odawa Indians...umm in all honesty I don’t really know much about how tribes differ umm..the only thing I know is like with money how much money they put out and what I learned with the kid who I met here about how they go about their like the education department how that works umm... but otherwise... I don’t know too much more umm...I really don’t even know too much about what goes on within my tribe only the things that my dad complains about and stuff like that (laughing) so that’s about all I know about the things that they are doing wrong and umm...I mean they ultimately they we have all different departments and like there's an education department they have umm...what is it called..maybe natural resources or something like that I don’t ... it's something strange you wouldn’t think it has all different things but they have umm that’s where they like take care of hunting and fishing licenses...if you are part of the tribe you can hunt and fish like extended times during the year...like my dad’s hunting license starts in September instead of November or Page 10 �whatever it is I don’t know when hunting season starts but he can umm..he can gun hunt starting early September umm.. it has to be north of the Grand River and West of something umm not exactly sure where that middle line is umm..and then with umm...fishing he doesn’t have to like go get a license to fish it’s on the back of his tribal card and with hunting too they send him like the deer tags or however that works and he can get as many as he wants umm which I don’t know much about hunting but apparently that’s great if you're a hunter umm.. (laughing)...I don’t know too much about it my dad doesn't really say much about it I can’t remember the last time he has even come home with a deer it’s been years so...I don't... I don't know too much apparently that that’s just awesome if you can get unlimited hunting tags and... if your already like your fishing license is ready and available all the time I don’t really know (laughing) about that umm...let's see we have our casino that we run umm...most tribes have their own casino and most of like the bigger ones especially if they have a bigger casino they also have a hotel or a resort with it...umm ours is slightly smaller... a tribe that we affiliate with is umm...The Grand Traverse Bay Band of Odawa Indians and they are in Traverse City umm...their casino is huge they have an amazing golf course they have all sorts of really really fancy things that we don't have but...umm let’s see we have an elder program umm...you are considered a tribal elder...at 55 umm..they provide all sorts of assistance for anything you need umm...you can send if you hang on to like grocery receipts you send them up at the end of the year and they reimburse you.. for like 500 dollars or something towards groceries umm we...as a tribal elder you have free all dental work whether it just be regular cleanings or cosmetic..umm...free doctor visits they provide healthcare if you need it umm...what else...then there is the education department they take care of like scholarships for college and you can also get umm scholarships during high school too..umm...for like private schools and stuff they'll give you money to go there umm...I don't really know much about that...umm...what else...they at the tribe they hold a lot of different umm they have like a breakfast for elders daily...umm...they have housing assistance they have employment assistance umm...pretty much any if especially if you are within the tribe they will hire you right away to work there just to make sure that you have a job and you are getting money and stuff so...umm...I'm not really sure what else they have.. again I don't really look into I only look into the things that like my family you know whether my dad uses it or utilizes it or the things that I need so.. Interviewer: Okay what would you say you know are some normal things that your dad you know just things that you know is he at the tribe...how many times a year like that kind of thing Kristy: Umm well one of my uncles still lives in Charlevoix and my oldest brother lives in Boyne Falls and our actual tribe is in Harbor Springs which is right there I don't know if you guys know the area very well but it’s all there all together up there umm the casino and resort is in Petoskey so everything's like in that area...umm..we try to go up there a few times a year if not more umm...we go up every summer we have a family reunion..umm...during the summer my uncle’s house and whoever can make it makes it..umm and we usually try to schedule that around the Pow Wow so everyone can go to that too umm...but every time we are up there I feel like we go to the tribe I don’t really know what we are doing there half the time my dad I mean everything like any forms cause everything you have to fill out a form for and most of the forms Page 11 �are just sign your name and send up there and it’s not a big deal well...my dad doesn’t trust the mail or something I don’t know we have to bring every form there personally to make sure everything is like handed in set and ready to go so...we're always doing that I...were always there doing who knows what half the time he's harassing people that he knows there (laughing)so...most the trips are pointless but usually a few times a year I would say at least three or four times a year if not more... so Interviewer: Are there any moments when you were you know on the reservation kind of growing up any things that stuck out in your mind things that happened within the tribe and... Kristy: Umm... (pause)...not really umm again I don't really know too much about what's going on umm I do know right now and its its now a concern just because I know more about more things I guess and umm...but we're losing a lot of money we the tribe decided a few years back to build a new casino and we already had a casino that was perfectly fine but they wanted to build a bigger and better one..and apparently we did not quite have the money for that...so that was a problem but they thought if they built a bigger casino that was better it would attract more people and they would quickly make money off of it... well they're not and they're not I mean I, I guess not very many people win it's hard to win there so...people don't really like to go there as much so it's kind of like backfiring umm..and...there's a board at the tribe umm so there's like the president, the vice president, the secretary and all like the typical board and they umm...we hold elections every couple years or something for that well they keep electing people and then... they...fire them or kick them off the board but it's actually more expensive to kick them off the board and then bring someone new in. I don’t know how that works exactly, but apparently it is tons of money to do that, so my dad is always complaining about it and just thinks they are all idiots apparently and I am sure he would much rather run the tribe himself because he always has better ideas than them. umm, but I guess it is a little concerning, especially because the tribal money is for people who need the assistance. It is the elders and all the tribes’ money, it is not government money, so they have to provide their own funds to give these people the money that they need. And there are tons of people that don’t have houses and they need this assistance for housing and all of that and I guess it is kind of concerning that we are slowly running out of money. We have no idea how we are going to get the money back because we keep kicking people out for doing the wrong things but it costs us even more money to do that. Again like I said, I don’t really know how that works but my dad and uncles will talk about it and how mad they are about it and how we are just wasting money. Apparently the tribe keeps buying more land up there which they buy it, but they won’t do anything with it, it is just there. Like there are tons of land in northern Michigan that we own we have no money to do anything with it because we keep buying more and using up all the money. so I think it is kind of concerning to know that all this money is slipping away so.. Interviewer: You talked about the drinking problems the tribe faces and the statistics are there like you said, have you noticed if, you know within your tribe if that issue has been addressed? Kristy: umm, I think it is more or less not in my immediate family as much, but in my family. like I mentioned, I have a really big family. I believe there are 41 first cousins. umm.. I think we are definitely the smallest family with 4. One of my cousins has 10 kids. Umm..(pause) I have Page 12 �cousins who have children who are older than me. So..(laughter) There are so many people but just half of them can’t seem to get it together. umm..like one of them, she just recently, well I guess, this past summer she was arrested for her 3rd DUI. She thinks it is stupid that she won’t be eligible for her driver’s license until 2013, like this horrible judge won’t give her her license back (laughter). Umm.. I mean half of them they just can’t keep jobs and it is for stupid things like not showing up for work and that same cousin, she has been fired and rehired at our tribe 3 times...twice was for drinking on the job. So, like they will give you a job no matter what, like you get caught twice drinking on the job and they are still going to give you a job. But, she got fired again for not showing up and being late too much, like they have an attendance policy if you work for them and there aren’t any exceptions and she can’t seem to keep a job, she is only 25 and umm..another cousin is a year older than me, he failed out of his first semester, or first year at the community college up there and he was taking guitar class, pottery class, something else which... he has been playing the guitar for years, he has a bass guitar, acoustic guitar. He knows how to play the guitar, but he failed out of the class. So, now he has to pay back the tribe for his money because he failed out of classes, they are not going to keep giving you money to go to school. So, he now has to pay the tribe back, he has also been fired from the tribe. Umm..a couple of them are.. couple of my cousins are in jail..umm, so it is just like you know the stigmas are there about Native Americans but .. I mean, the stereotypes are true you know if you fit that, if you continue to you know act on this then of course it is going to be there. So you know, I hate having negative stereotypes but like I look at my family and they are all doing it. They can’t keep jobs you know they aren’t going to school, they are constantly in trouble, it is just kind of sad but I think it is more, I guess, it almost makes me mad that they do this. I just think it is so stupid, like I think a lot of them chose the unemployment, of course if you don’t show up for work you are going to unemployed. You can’t expect to show up whenever you want and keep your job. It is..it just sucks and I know some people aren’t choosing it but.. a lot of them are. A lot of them are just lazy. Interviewer: Do you think it really is just laziness or do you think there is a larger problems? Is the tribe too lenient? Kristy: I don’t know if it is too lenient. I think a big thing is that the tribe wants to get rid of the stereotypes and wants to get rid of the statistics and wants to have the most employed that they can, and will get as many employed as they can, they will. And you know, like I said they will hire you back as many times, just so that you are employed so you do have money, like they don’t want people to be on the streets or anything like that but...I also feel like maybe if they didn’t hire people back maybe it would be a wake-up call but..I don’t see that happening because it is more important to them to have people employed so people can feed their family but, it is still just, it’s like a lose, lose situation. No one, you know, you can’t win either way so.. Interviewer: Do you see this problem, you know, like you said, they are trying to work on it but do you honestly see these statistics and stereotypes changing, getting better? K: umm... not really. Uh, like with our tribe it’s not as bad, the statistics on our reservations, not nearly as bad, like the unemployment rates are probably not any worse that like the regular ones umm but there are some of them out West, there are, I think the biggest one it is called Rosebud. Page 13 �I am not sure of the exact percentage, but it is somewhere between 70 and 90 percent unemployed. Like I said, the government doesn’t have to help, so they don’t. And they don’t have to give them money or like, let them go to school. Like the schools, I saw a documentary on them, the schools are literally falling apart. And of course on the reservation they don’t have don’t have money because everyone is unemployed, so they have no way to fix up the school and the government won’t do anything about it because they don’t have to because it is not their duty. So in some places it is much worse and I don’t see it changing because... I mean, especially with just regular statistics, like with how many people are unemployed, like it is a problem right now and the economy is a problem right now too. If they are not doing as much to help everyone else why would they bother there too? Where they don’t have to. By law they don’t have to, so why would they, you know, I feel like it’s logical but not ethical. But it’s logical, I mean why would you put your money where you don’t have to? Soo.. Interviewer: Wrap up question, now looking forward, umm I know you mentioned going back to the reservation as a possibility, how do you see if you choose to go back, you know would you bring up your kids Native Americans? What kind of life do you hope they have? How much do you want them to know about their culture? Kristy: umm..I like, they don’t plan much on doing anything much different from any other family, but I would definitely like them to know. Like, I wish i would’ve known a little more about what my dad went through. Even when I was younger, I wish I knew. I always knew that they lived in foster homes and I knew it was because my grandma passed away, but I didn’t know all the details. I would hope that I can teach them that there were a lot of bad things that happened and that you know, even my dad went through these things but I wouldn’t want them to grow up feeling like.. being Native American like they, what’s the word...like I don’t want, I wouldn’t want them to think that people should treat them different, like they should be treated differently because you know, they are Native Americans and Native Americans went through horrible things. I wouldn’t want them to think that, like I would want them to feel like everyone else. There are not going through it, well i hope they wouldn’t be going through it. Like I didn’t go through anything. So, I mean I don’t feel like anyone should treat me different, I don’t feel like I should have better treatment just because people in the past went through bad things. I think just a regular upbringing but know what’s happened and, like be educated and understand that it happened but..move on from it, I guess. Interviewer: Alright, well, um we can also talk back to the whole government assistance thing, what do you think should happen and what do you hope happens? Should the government be helping out your tribe? K: Umm, I mean, I feel like they are ok for now umm..but I definitely think more should be done for other tribes like, I mean, just even above 50% unemployment, like that is so sad. And, like the documentary that I watched I guess it was a 20/20 special so it was on ABC or whatever the local channel was...Diane Sawyer, or whatever, i believe that’s who it was...she went to the reservation and umm was talking to some of the children and there are kids there who are like 10 or 11,12 drinking, like actually drinking on a daily basis, like there are many of them. It is not uncommon to have an alcohol problem and to have an alcohol problem by the age of 16. Maybe Page 14 �3 or 4 kids graduate from high school a year, maybe.. a lot of them die very young, just from health issues in general because they are drinking so much and things like that. They have a much higher rate of umm..like death from car accidents specifically because people drink and drive umm..what was the question(laughter)? Interviewer: just about the government... Kristy: Oh yeah, like I think in places like that more needs to be done, like I don’t think that is acceptable at all, umm not just because it’s, on a Native American reservation but just because it is any society. I mean, I don’t believe, the government would let any other society, like if it was Grand Rapids, they wouldn’t let the unemployment be that high, they would not let, you know something would be done to stop it. You know, just because they don’t have to, they don’t. I think that, I don’t think that everyone needs to be employed, but I think the unemployment rate should be the same all the way around. I mean, there are people who can’t feed their children, I think children need to fed like whether, whatever the adults are doing, that’s whatever, if they want to have drinking problems, the government doesn’t do much. You have to be willing to get the help, but I think, especially the children, every child deserves to have an education and go to school. I really wish that the “No Child Left Behind Act” or whatever, well that doesn’t apply there. So, that’s when kids don’t graduate because they don’t have, like most schools don’t have any computers at all. Uh, they don’t have, if they have textbooks, they are from like the 70s and 80s that they have just kept, they don’t have the money to get anything new. Everything that they could be learning, it probably isn’t useful or relevant anymore. So, it just, I don’t understand especially with children how they can just let it go, I mean obviously you aren’t doing anything for the children, nothing is ever going to get better because children become adults some day and still do not have an education. I still wish it could be like equal all around so...but I don’t know if it will happen. Interviewer: Is there anything else you would like to tell us about? Kristy: I don’t think so, I mean if there are any other, like last questions anyone else has? Interviewer: I guess the only other question I had, was umm, in class we discussed how kids sometimes, they keep things that have happened in the past, like especially in history like kind of like sugar coated, is the best word I can put and I just wonder, like what your input would be? like, should we let kids get taught the real thing like what they real thanksgiving was about like, you know what I mean? Kristy: Umm, I definitely think it should be a little bit more fact based, I mean, I definitely, like, I said, just learned that you know, for the real thanksgiving everyone ate together and then they killed all the Indians afterwards, like I had no idea, like I have always thought of thanksgiving as like the Indians and the pilgrims came together and everyone ate and it was a great time and everyone was happy afterwards...and I had no idea like how it was, and I think that, i mean especially like being Native American, it was like shocking to learn, like this is what I have always been taught, but this is what really happened so, I think people should know more along the lines. I mean not, I don’t think we should teach like the horrible things to young children, I mean, you don’t need them to have nightmares, but I don’t think it should be so much you know Happy Thanksgiving everyone was happy afterwards, I mean, like I know in school they didn’t Page 15 �exactly say that, but you can assume, if they all came together and had this great dinner together and everyone got along then everyone got along afterwards. I think things are left out and I think some of the details should be included and I think it should be a little less sugar coated maybe not you know completely like blunt facts but a little less. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b0f7f8dce30aca9f0ea71144db1bb91.mp3 10555297b4c32a1b47d5c396113a9359 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Skippergosh_Kristine_2 Title A name given to the resource Kristine Skippergosh audio interview 2 and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skippergosh, Kristine Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rogers, Alyssa Johson, Cailie Johson, Stephanie Rhenshaw, Lyndsay Description An account of the resource Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Indians of North America--Personal narratives Discrimination against Indians of North America Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/43c59f0ad1a8254ded207d9c70a8225b.m4v d37319e237978a50bae431f29ae54592 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3768665b25429d50fa4869ae4ce68a9.pdf 317467e7d2634b15a8860b7f7fbef0a6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Otto Skoppek World War II (Germany Army) 1 hour 48 minutes 40 seconds (00:00:15) Early Life on the Farm -Born in the country near Treuberg in East Prussia on December 15, 1916 -Family owned a large farm -Had orchards, grew corn, clover and potatoes, and owned cows and pigs -Local butcher came to them with a horse drawn cart -Their farm was in the “Land of 1,000 Lakes,” known as the Masurian Lake District -Produced a lot of rye -Hs father grew a wide variety of potatoes -Yellow, blue, white, red and a larger type that were fed to the livestock -Had enough livestock that they could sell some and keep some to feed the family -No electricity on the farm, and everything was powered by either kerosene or petroleum -Had a smokehouse for meats, and his father made an assortment of sausages -Mother baked homemade bread -Walked three to four miles to school -His family made their own butter and chilled it in their cellar -Only had to buy salt, sugar, and other things they couldn’t produce on the farm -Used roots and homemade remedies to treat sicknesses -Able to fish on their farm -Father used a homemade trap fashioned out of animal bones and wood -Had a pure creek that ran through their property and connected two lakes -Caught fish that weighed five to seven pounds -There was also a pond on the farm’s land -Father hunted rabbits in the winter with a hunting dog -Dozens of spruce trees grew on their property -His mother gathered mushrooms and cooked them in butter -His father used a small tractor and some horses to work the land -There were red elk in the area, and his father and other farmers hunted them -If you got one, you brought the meat to the butcher to be sold to the other people -Allowed to keep the antlers and two of the elk’s teeth -His father brought the teeth to a jeweler -Embedded in a necklace made out of African gold -Inherited the necklace from his father (00:21:38) Early Life & Education -In the 1920s, things were bad for Germany -There was hyperinflation, then it stabilized, only to be upset by the Great Depression -Throughout the 1920s, the Nazis began their rise to power �-Father made enough money to afford to send his children to high school and college -Education was free, but had to pay for additional expenses -He attended high school in Treuberg, but had to live in an apartment -Had to prove to his teachers that he wanted an education, so he could go to college -Visited his family on the weekends -Chance to get homemade food -On some weekends his mother made cakes and preserved fruits -Had a huge basement in which to store crops and food for livestock -Father had a hand operated machine in the basement -Used it to make sauerkraut out of cabbage grown on the farm -Grew cucumbers around the house and used them to make pickles -Paired the homemade pickles and sauerkraut with the homemade meats -Had 25 fruit trees in their yard -Especially remembers the pear trees and winter apple trees -Mother candied the fruit -Finished high school when he was 13 and went to college -Only way to become an officer in the German Army was by attending college (00:34:00) Paratrooper in North Africa Pt. 1 -He served as a paratrooper in North Africa -Went on missions behind enemy lines -Learned to land with both feet to avoid breaking a leg -Used a parachute that opened near the ground -Allowed for rapid and stealthy insertion (00:35:50) College & Forestry Work Pt. 1 -Went to college in Konigsberg, also in East Prussia -Famous for its historic German leaders -Rich, food producing area -Good for Stalin when it was ceded to the Soviet Union -He studied science in college with an emphasis on forestry work -Did that because he came from a wooded area -Remembers there being a dance hall and beer garden in the woods -Popular with the people -Had a variety of beers and meat (00:44:20) War Reparations -After World War I, the Germans had to surrender gold jewelry to pay for war reparations -After World War II, the Germans had to pay with land and agriculture -Eastern Germans were forced off their lands and had to move to West Germany (00:45:58) Forestry Work Pt. 2 -After college, he started receiving practical forestry training in Treuberg -Worked with a forester in the field and in the office -Managed land and wood being used by farmers -Some of the foresters only had a high school education, but were still educated men -Managed forest consumption for firewood and housing �-Had a sawmill -Worked as a forester through the 1930s (00:50:30) Nazism -Never felt like he was under the control of the Nazi Party -Soldiers didn’t use the Nazi salute, they used the regular salute -While in North Africa, under Field Marshal Rommel, they were just soldiers and not Nazis -Didn’t know about the Nazi atrocities being committed in Europe (00:51:55) Stationed in North Africa -Had a good relationship with the Arabs in North Africa -Ate rations that were lacking in vitamins -Soldiers lost their teeth because of the lack in nutrients (00:52:30) Start of World War II -He was working as a forester in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland (00:52:50) Stationed in Tunis Pt. 1 -He had a good office position in Tunis, Tunisia -Investigated a bicycle theft -It was a beautiful city -People were a mix of Italian and Arabic descent -Made silver jewelry -Wonderful people -Brought local cuisine to Otto and the other German soldiers in the city -Very friendly people -Remembers being on guard duty and seeing the silhouette of a large dog -Someone told him it was a hyena, so he shot it -The next day, a farmer came to them and told them that someone shot his dog (00:56:45) Surrendering to the Americans Pt. 1 -He had been drafted into the German Army and was assigned to Rommel’s Afrika Korps -By the end of the North African Campaign, they had run out of food, ammunition, and weapons -German supply lines had been cut -Forced to surrender because there was no way they could fight -Captured by American forces and told they would be brought to the U.S. as prisoners-of-war -*Note: Based on outside information, Otto was captured in 1943 -An American general applauded the behavior of the Afrika Korps -Under strict orders from Rommel to treat Allied prisoners with humanity -Never killed them, and always tried to feed them (01:00:07) Assignment to the Afrika Korps -He went into the German Army because he had spent almost his entire life in Treuberg -Wanted to do something different -Army was a chance at personal progress and a better future -Selected for service in North Africa in Rommel’s Afrika Korps (01:01:38) Prisoner-of-War -He and other German prisoners-of-war were brought to the United States -Put to work on a cotton plantation in Texas near the Mexican border �-Given a burlap sack and ordered to fill the sack -He was the first of his group to fill the sack -Picked cotton with both hands -Stayed at the prisoner-of-war camp in Texas until the war’s end -Treated well by the Americans -Moved to a green bean canning factory in Wyoming -American workers needed a vacation -In one month, the Germans produced 20,000 more cans than the American workers -American overseers rewarded them with a big box of cigars -Stayed in America for one year longer after World War II’s end -Issued tickets to buy goods at the factory store in Wyoming -Able to buy cigarettes and cigars that were unavailable in postwar Germany -Allowed to bring them back to Germany with them (01:06:36) Returning to Germany -Flown back to Europe and landed at a field near Amsterdam -Brought to a transit camp under British authority -British troops seized everything that the Germans had bought in America -Later that night, he and some others snuck over and stole back their goods -Flown from the Netherlands to Germany -By now, Germany had been divided into East and West Germany -Soviets had taken as much as they could from the Germans in East Germany -Visited his parents who were living in East Germany -Had to go through a border checkpoint manned by Soviet troops -He had terrible teeth due to the nutritional deprivation he experienced in North Africa -Went to a local dentist, but didn’t have any money to pay him -Still had a few cartons of cigarettes and a box of cigars -Dentist accepted the American tobacco as payment-in-kind -Gave Otto gold teeth replacements for the ones he lost -Not allowed to return to East Prussia since it was directly under Russian control -Parents lost everything and had to move to East Germany -He settled in West Germany and worked around there (01:12:13) Moving to America -Decided to return to America -During his time in West Germany he would send some goods to his parents in East Germany -Bits of food and clothing that he could get to them -Felt that Germany was too crowded and he wanted to return to the United States -Went to the American consulate in Hamburg to get approval -The decision was made by an American official -Explained that he’d had a good experience in America and wanted to return -Told the official that he had been in the Afrika Korps under Rommel -Immediately granted approval to immigrate to the U.S. -Americans had a deep respect for Rommel and his soldiers �(01:15:25) Airborne Mission in Tunisia -There was a memorable airborne mission behind French and Moroccan lines -*Note: Based on this information, he was most likely in the Ramcke Parachute Brigade -Landed behind enemy lines at midnight, and tasked with destroying enemy artillery -Went up against French and Moroccan troops -French and Moroccan artillery had been harassing nearby German infantry and tanks -Preventing the German tanks from advancing -Caught the French and Moroccans while they were sleeping -Told the guards not to sound the alarm or they would all be killed -Had a special explosive charge that would render the artillery pieces unusable -Ignited the charge, placed it in the breech, and 30 seconds later destroyed the gun -This mission happened in Tunisia -He was in a team of 16 paratroopers up against hundreds, or thousands, of Allied troops -Fired a flare to signal to the German tanks the artillery had been destroyed -German infantry and tanks advanced and linked up with Otto’s team (01:18:30) Stationed in Tunis Pt. 2 -Took over a consulate in Tunis -Had a cook -It was good duty -Needed to find bicycles for German soldiers -Transferred to office duty because he’d spent enough time on the frontline -People in Tunis were friendly (01:21:40) Surrendering to the Americans Pt. 2 -Pulled out of office duty because more Allied troops were coming into North Africa -Sent back to the frontline -Eventually ran out of ammunition and weapons -Saw American troops on the waterfront and knew they had to surrender -Decided it would be better to surrender to the Americans than keep fighting -Placed on a large ship bound for the United States -U-Boats had discovered that the ship was transporting German prisoners-of-war -POWs were afraid because they didn’t know the U-Boats knew that -Had good food on the ship -Sailed to Texas where their prisoner-of-war camp was located (01:24:30) Fighting in North Africa -Fought in Libya and Egypt -Found out that they couldn’t win the war like they thought they would -By early 1943, German forces on the southern Eastern Front had collapsed -Fought at El Alamein, Tobruk, and Sollum -His unit was sent to help regular infantry when they got in a tough situation -Usually inserted behind enemy lines to disrupt enemy forces -Then had to work back to the German line -He made a total of 16 jumps as a paratrooper -Did six combat jumps in North Africa �-Most combat jumps were against French forces, but did a couple against the British -Moroccans were vicious fighters -Had taken three German soldiers prisoner and executed them (0:31:22) Life in America -Sponsored by Peter Cook when Otto moved to the U.S. with his wife and son -*Note: Based on outside information, Otto and his family moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1957 -Got a job with Volkswagen since he’d had automotive experience in Germany -Became a manager -Stayed with the company when it became Mazda Great Lakes -Bought a car for $950 and had a home -When he worked for Volkswagen, then Mazda, he got a new car every year -Sold to a dedicated buyer and never had to spend more than $100 on a new car -The worst thing was when he had to relinquish his driver’s license -On doctor’s recommendation, due to sight trouble in his right eye -Able to drive until he was 98 years old (01:44:32) Reflections on Service -People lost so much in the war, and in a way, he counts himself as fortunate -He lost his brothers in the fighting on the Eastern Front -He wonders if he would have survived the war if he hadn’t been in North Africa Main interview ends <At various points throughout the interview, Otto mentions that he can play the harmonica and has memorized about 500 songs of German, French, Russian, and South American origin. From (01:47:25) – (01:48:37) he plays a song as conclusion to his interview.> � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SkoppekO2099V Title A name given to the resource Skoppek, Otto (Interview outline and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-07 Description An account of the resource Otto Skoppek was born near Treuberg, East Prussia, on December 15, 1916. Sometime in the early 1940s, he enlisted in the German Army and was assigned to Field Marshal Rommel's Afrika Korps. He served as a paratrooper and went behind British and French lines to disrupt their forces so the Germans could advance. Based on this information, he was most likely in the Ramcke Parachute Brigade. He saw fighting across North Africa in Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia, and was stationed in Tunis for a time. He did six combat jumps, and fought at El Alamein, Tobruk, and Sollum. In 1943, due to dire supply shortages, he and the other German forces surrendered to American forces. Due to being under Rommel's command, they were treated with great respect and civility. Otto was brought to America and spent the rest of the war at a prisoner-of-war camp in Texas near the Mexican border picking cotton, then briefly at a canning factory in Wyoming. He returned to Germany (most likely in 1946 or 1947), and lived in West Germany until 1957 when he and his wife and child moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skoppek, Otto Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Germany. Army. Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6047d0e3342a839288b688f3c5468c81.mp4 7a7347c5a3837d8f9df0316e01dc29b1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88707897ccffc54fe45b6782e416358c.pdf b27ee2365bab6550dd7fd1d1c30605ed PDF Text Text Slager, Kenneth Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Kenneth Slager Length of Interview: Interviewed by: Wallace Erichsen Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman INTERVIEWER: Today is March 15, 2019 and we are at Ray Brooke Retirement home in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We’ll be interviewing Reverend Kenneth Ray Slager who served in the US Marine Corps in World War II. Kenneth Ray Slager was born on June 11, 1925 and his residence is: 2111 Raybrook Avenue Southeast Apartment 1006 Grand Rapids, Michigan 49546 And I, as the videographer and interviewer and also the audio person, my name is Wallace Erikson, and I’m a volunteer interviewer with the history department at Grand Vallery State University, Allendale, Michigan. And this interview is being done as part of the Veterans History Project at the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. Now Ken, what is your full name and your date of birth? (1:48) My full name is Kenneth Ray Slager, I was born in June 11th, 1925. INTERVIEWER: And where is your place of birth, city and state? Kalamazoo, Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Okay, thank you. Which war did you serve in? World War II. Second world war. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And what branch of service and what was your highest rank? I was in the Marine Corps and I became a Corporal. INTERVIEWER: Okay thank you. Where did you serve? What theater of the war? What theater? �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: What theater. Pacific. INTERVIEWER: Pacific, okay. Island hopping. INTERVIEWER: Well if you’re born in Kalamazoo then, Ken, where did you grow up? Just east of Kalamazoo in a community called Comstock. INTERVIEWER: I see and what did your father do for a living there? He did a variety of jobs but he ended up working for Upjohn Company. (2:55) INTERVIEWER: Oh I see, what did he do for that? He worked in the lab where they ran their first run to see how it would work in the production. INTERVIEWER: Sure. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Biological laboratory then, I assume. Something like that. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. How many siblings did you have, brothers and sisters? I had 2 sisters and 1 brother. INTERVIEWER: Okay. I was the oldest. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And where did you go to high school then? Well after graduating from Christian school in Comstock I went forward to Kalamazoo Christian High School. We rode our bicycles four miles. INTERVIEWER: Oh my. To and from. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: You also went to Comstock Christian Elementary School, is that right? Mmhm. INTERVIEWER: I see. Mmhm. Two room school. INTERVIEWER: Oh my, was it out in the country or in the little village of Comstock? It was part of the community. INTERVIEWER: I see. Went to church there too of course. INTERVIEWER: What church did you go to in Comstock? Comstock CRC. INTERVIEWER: Christian Reform Church? Right. INTERVIEWER: I see. (Long pause) Did you have any employment when you were in grade school or high school? (4:38) Well when I was in my early teens I was working for my uncle in the celery field. INTERVIEWER: I see, what was his name? Jacob Slager. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Okay. And then were you draft into the military? Yes. INTERVIEWER: I see. So you got a draft notice I assume? I just signed up for the draft on my birthday in June and in early September I was sent to Detroit for physical. INTERVIEWER: I see. How long after high school was that when you were drafted? �Slager, Kenneth Three months. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Did you go to Detroit then, did you take a train or how did you get there, do you remember? I think by train. INTERVIEWER: Okay. I don’t remember but I’m pretty sure that’s the way alright. INTERVIEWER: And that was the entrance station then at the draft station there for the military. And what happened there, then? Well as I was being processed they asked for volunteers for the Marine Corps, they needed a few extra men and if you would volunteer you could go back home for two weeks and that sounded pretty good to me so I signed up. INTERVIEWER: Do they give you any assurance of any sort of military occupation or MOS or at all? No, no. INTERVIEWER: The drafting at the draft board there. No. INTERVIEWER: So you had two more weeks of the civilian life, is that right? Right back to work. (6:27) INTERVIEWER: Okay. Did you go back then to Detroit after the two weeks or did you go someplace else? No, no. We boarded a bus for Chicago and in Chicago they put us in the Pullman car. I had an upper berth which was pretty nice and we clickety-clacked across the country to Los Angeles. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Where did you go through basic training then? �Slager, Kenneth San Diego. INTERVIEWER: San Diego. Marine Corps Recruit Depot then. Right. (7:03) INTERVIEWER: Okay. How long were you there at the basic training? About four months. Two months in boot camp and two months in infantry training. INTERVIEWER: I see… where was the infantry training, was that at San Diego also? The what? INTERVIEWER: The Infantry training? Was that at San Diego? Right. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember any of your drill instructors, what they were like or what they were named or anything by chance? Well I know he had a strong voice. I’m trying to recall his name but I can’t recall his name now. He put us through our paces, he was an excellent DI. INTERVIEWER: You could hear him across the drill deck I bet. That’s right. INTERVIEWER: You could probably still hear that voice sometimes. Yeah well I… when we were in the rifle range, we were returning from an evening program, four or five platoons and he was calling the cadence for all five platoons. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, haha.. What were the first few days of your service, and your training your basic training, what were they like? What do you remember about them? I really don’t remember much at all. Nope. I’m drawing much of a blank there I know I got rid of my civilian closed and got GI clothes, sent the other clothes back home. That was it. INTERVIEWER: But any particular instances that come back to your mind as far as, you know the drill instructor yelling at you or hollering at everybody trying to get you to line up? �Slager, Kenneth Yup He was very strict and one fella, instead of washing his clothes he would just take one of his briefs and get it wet and hang it up and he got caught at it, so the DI told him to throw it on the ground which is red clay. Then he marched the platoon back and forth over it, he said “Now you get it clean.” INTERVIEWER: So you had to wash your own clothing in it? Oh yeah, every evening. INTERVIEWER: I expected you to use soap and water I suppose. Yeah, whatever they had there. At least our underwear, yeah. (9:55) INTERVIEWER: What did it feel like, then, the first few days in basic training? I probably felt lost. I wasn’t at home and I wasn’t completely comfortable there either, I guess. Took a while to adjust. INTERVIEWER: Yeah you weren’t really used to it yet. Yup. But they didn’t give you a lot of time to think about it. INTERVIEWER: That helps, probably. Woke you up early in the morning and kept you busy all the time til it was time to get back in the sack. INTERVIEWER: Even the evenings, was that pretty much regimented as far as the trainings with the drill instructor? The what? INTERVIEWER: The evenings after the evening meal? Were you busy at that time also with the drill instructor? During the infantry training you mean? INTERVIEWER: Well in basic training after the evening meal or did you have these evenings to yourself? Oh they found things to do, yeah. INTERVIEWER: They kept you busy, yeah. �Slager, Kenneth Polish your rifle or polish your shoes. INTERVIEWER: Right, yeah. Clean your rifle as you would say, polish your shoes. INTERVIEWER: Well how did you get through the basic training then? How did I get through it? INTERVIEWER: How did you get through it, yeah. I did what I was told! INTERVIEWER: You followed instructions, right? (11:19) (Slager laughs) INTERVIEWER: Okay. Your rifle training then? Where? INTERVIEWER: Where. I don’t remember where, I know it was up in the higher elevation and it got very cold at night. INTERVIEWER: But near San Diego, is that right? Not too far from San Diego, nice general area. When we’d go out to the rifle range in the morning we had to have plenty of clothes on to stay warm. But the time we came back at noon we had most of it off, it was pretty warm. INTERVIEWER: And how long were you there? Three weeks of rifle training. INTERVIEWER: Three weeks, okay. And the first full week was only the snapping and we never did any firing. INTERVIEWER: But they taught you how to hold a rifle and adjust the swing properly and all that? Right. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: It’s an interesting turn, snapping in. They still use it in the Marine Corps. I suppose. INTERVIEWER: One of those things. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… where did you go after basic training? Did you go to advanced training after that? Infantry training, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Oh I see. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And that was also at San Diego? Mmhm. INTERVIEWER: How long were you at infantry training? Two months. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yup. We were… INTERVIEWER: Backing up just a bit here, Ken, when did you enter the military then or when were you drafted, what date? September… let’s see… two weeks after the 9th, anyways. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so you were at the entrance station there. About 23 I guess. INTERVIEWER: On the 9th. September 23. INTERVIEWER: On the 23rd, what year then was that? �Slager, Kenneth 1943. INTERVIEWER: ‘43, okay. Okay. What did you do in infantry training when you went to infantry training in San Diego. Well, um… INTERVIEWER: What sort of things did you learn? Mostly just… do as your told, I guess. INTERVIEWER: Did you learn about specific weapons like machine guns or? Oh yeah, several. INTERVIEWER: Bazookas and that kind of thing? (14:07) Yeah that was on the rifle range. INTERVIEWER: Oh I see. Oh, the rifle range was part of the infantry training is that right? Mhm. INTERVIEWER: I see. Yeah. Three weeks. INTERVIEWER: And then at the end and infantry training thats, I assume, when you graduated is that right? Yeah you had, after the near the end of the three weeks they had you fire four a record and the fella next to me his target didn’t have any holes and mine had a lot of ‘em so… I think I got his shots, credit for his shots. INTERVIEWER: You had more holes in your target then you had bullet casings is that right? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: That would give you a good high score. It did, unfortunately. I was qualified as a BARman, Browning Automatic Rifle. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Oh I see. When did you graduate though from basic training, do you remember that? It’s usually a big parade isn’t it? I don’t think it was that much for us. It was war time and they were just interested in getting us overseas. INTERVIEWER: I see. I suppose there was some kind of ceremony but I don’t remember it at all. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Where did you go after San Diego then? Well we got aboard the SS President Tyler, 2700 of us, and took a 28-day trip to Guadalcanal. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Stopping at New Caledonia on the way, we crossed the pacific all by ourselves, no escort, no protection. INTERVIEWER: What sort of ship had the SS President Tyler been? Had that been a passenger ship? I guess so, and probably retired. INTERVIEWER: What was your—did you have a regular stateroom? Oh no no no, we had about 4 bunks in a tier. INTERVIEWER: Four bunks stacked up one on top of the other? Right. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And I was not on the top but I was not on the bottom either, thankfully. INTERVIEWER: So you went to Guadalcanal and you mentioned you stopped on what island? Actually went over as a replacement of a battalion. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yeah. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Do you remember what your battalion designation was? The battalion or regiment that you were in? No I don’t. INTERVIEWER: Okay. No… it was just a replacement battalion I don’t remember the number. INTERVIEWER: And you eventually went to guadalcanal, but I thought you mentioned you had also stopped at another island? (17:09) New Caledonia. INTERVIEWER: New Caledonia, okay… What did you do in New Caledonia? You know, they unloaded some fresh fruit which we never had. INTERVIEWER: Well that was a treat I’ll bet, at least for a few days anyway. Right. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… They managed to break a crate or two I think while they were unloading. INTERVIEWER: And at this point as you’re going overseas what was your military specialty there, were you a BAR? Yeah. Browning Automatic Rifleman. INTERVIEWER: A Browning Automatic Rifleman, okay, so Infantry then, right? Yeah, that was my [specialty]. INTERVIEWER: Okay… and when you’ve got to Guadalcanal what sort of a situation did you encounter there then? When you got to Guadalcanal? Well… we just were assigned to a particular place where they had tents set up for us and we were waiting to be assigned to specific units. INTERVIEWER: You were replacement personnel then. �Slager, Kenneth Right, and after a few days they put up a notice that everyone 6 feet or more tall to fall out at such and such a date and I did of course. And a short captain came and asked a few questions, and a day or two later I was assigned to an MP company. INTERVIEWER: I see… when you first arrived on Guadalcanal, Ken, was the fighting still going on? No, no, it’s secure. INTERVIEWER: The island was fairly secure? Yup. Yup. (18:54) INTERVIEWER: Okay… So you joined the MPs then, what was your unit designation at that point? It was MP Company and H&S Battalion, 3rd Amphibious Corps. INTERVIEWER: Okay. General Geiger was Commander. Roy S. Geiger. INTERVIEWER: That’s a famous name from… Yes! INTERVIEWER: World War II, yeah. Okay. Did you go through specific training at all to be an MP? I don’t remember, I suppose they taught us a few things. I remember one thing they said, “When you’re wearing that Brizard you’re just like Jesus Christ.” I didn’t quite agree with that, but what they meant was you were in charge. INTERVIEWER: Yeah that’s probably why they wanted people 6 feet or over. Right. INTERVIEWER: So that you could be in charge, you would look like you’re in charge. What was your actual job assignment then as a military policeman? Well, we did various things during invasions. We would sometimes escort admirals and generals who would come to view things, we would take care of the main gate if there was such a thing, we’d raise and lower the colors every day as part of our tasks. Supervise work in the brig, make sure everybody stayed there. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: The brig or jail, right? There’s no place to go if they got out, so, wasn’t too much of a problem but… and direct traffic. INTERVIEWER: We’re you broken up into—the company, were you broken up into platoons or did you have squads? No, not in the MP Company, no. I suppose we fall out in formation but they didn’t have us working separately as platoons or anything. INTERVIEWER: Would you be assigned like two, three, or four to a detail like the main gate, or? Yeah, they give us assignments every day or so. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yo wouldn’t be on your own specifically you probably would have two or three other MPs helping ya. Yeah, very often. (21:48) INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Did you see combat when you were in the Marine Corps? Well yes and no. I was not involved in combat as such. We were close to the front lines more than one occasion, once we were close enough that the cook was killed by a… I had the word and now I forgot. INTERVIEWER: Mortar round? Mortar dropped right in his fox hole. INTERVIEWER: Oh. Yeah. But for the most part we were behind the lines cause we were headquarters battalion. INTERVIEWER: No other than the cook you just mentioned, were there any other casualties in your unit like in H&S Company here? No, nothing too serious. The only thing I can remember is there was a fella by the name of Joe Sokolowski and he always walked with a rudy sticking out of his chest, and going through the line to get a shots and he keeled over. He wasn’t such a… INTERVIEWER: He wasn’t such a He-Man at that point. �Slager, Kenneth No. INTERVIEWER: What was Joe’s last name—what was Joe’s last name again? Sokolowski. S-o-k-o-l-o-w-s-k-i, I think something like that. INTERVIEWER: S-K-I… you recall where he was from? I think Chicago area. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. Yeah… did he eventually revive himself? I don’t remember. INTERVIEWER: Okay. He stayed. INTERVIEWER: He stayed dead, okay… Can you tell me about any other memorable experiences you had there? (23:55) Yes. INTERVIEWER: Maybe in policing the other Marines or other Navy personnel or whatever. I remember when I was on guard duty guarding the general's tent and about six o’clock in the morning he came out of the tent and his question was “How did the boys do during the night?” Which, in reflecting on that told me he was concerned about the personnel and their safety. Of course I had no idea how they had… but there had not been much firing that I had heard. INTERVIEWER: That’s probably a surprise question to you. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: As if he thought you had just come from the intelligence tent or something. Right. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. And another outstanding thing in my mind on Okinawa was I was directing traffic after… well let me get back up a bit. We had a season of rain, almost three weeks of continuous rain where they couldn’t get through on the roads, they had to bring things up to the front on the beach �Slager, Kenneth using amphibious tractors. So once it dried up they had to remove lots of bodies, and I remember a truck—a four by six truck coming by loaded with bodies on it like cordwood taking them from the front, and that was quite traumatic of course. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Some kind of stock and trade questions here then, Ken. Were you ever a prisoner of war? Was I a prisoner of war? No. INTERVIEWER: Okay… I guarded a few prisoners but I was never a prisoner of war. INTERVIEWER: Were you ever wounded in action? No. INTERVIEWER: Okay. No. INTERVIEWER: Were you awarded any individual medals or citations for individual bravery or anything like that? No, nothing like that either. INTERVIEWER: Okay… We stop— (Tape is changed.) Okay Ken, how long did you stay on Guadalcanal before moving on? I don’t know, it was not very long before we went on our first push which was Guam. INTERVIEWER: Mhmm.. So after Guadalcanal you went to Guam then, is that right? Well that was the invasion of Guam. INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay. Then we went back to Guadalcanal and then was the invasion of Okinawa. INTERVIEWER: How long were you on Guam? I don’t recall. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and again that— �Slager, Kenneth It didn’t take long because it was a small island and the people there knew what the American troops were like and so they gladly welcomed us. (27:22) INTERVIEWER: So they welcomed you ashore? The Okinawan Japanese had told them we were terrible people but on Guam they knew better. INTERVIEWER: Surprise, that wasn’t the case. Because of the US position. INTERVIEWER: So you went to Guam and then you went back to— Okinawa. INTERVIEWER: Guadalcanal? Back to Guadalcanal. INTERVIEWER: For a time. And then from Guadalcanal a second time where did you go after that? Then we did an invasion of Okinawa. INTERVIEWER: Okay Did you actually participate in the invasion or was that shortly after the invasion? Well, part of the invasion, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. You know, we went in D-Day plus one or two. INTERVIEWER: Okay… How was that? What was that like once you got ashore in Okinawa? Well… INTERVIEWER: Cause you were quite close at the time of the invasion. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Only a day or two after. �Slager, Kenneth Nothing comes to mind right now except what we talked about earlier of course, some of the things we talked about were on Okinawa. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember what part of the island on Okinawa that you landed on? No I don’t. INTERVIEWER: Okay. I know that the Marines landed next to the Army and we swept north but there was no opposition and in just a few days we were back on the line on the south end of the island. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: But again at that point you were still, you were in the military policemen then at that point. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So you’re directing traffic… Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And guarding the main gate and things like that to the compound. Guarding generals and admirals. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Escorting them. (29:23) INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Let me ask you a little bit about that then, Ken, escorting the generals and the bigwigs. Did they travel around a lot or just some? They would come just to see how things were going I guess, get fairly close to the front lines, check things out. Our job was to protect them, they didn’t get fired on by any enemies. INTERVIEWER: I assume they were in a Jeep. Yeah. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Most of the time, and did you have a convoy, did you have other Jeeps? Yeah usually. INTERVIEWER: Or trucks that you had? We had one Jeep ahead with several of us in it. INTERVIEWER: And then probably a Jeep or a truck in the back? Yeah, right. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Okay. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So they would at least get to the front line and did they visit other commands with other units? Well I imagine that was the idea, we didn’t get involved in that, we were just there to make sure they were kept safe. INTERVIEWER: You just went wherever they told you to go, right? (Long pause) So I’m assuming you guarded the Commanding General for the 3rd Amphibious Corps. Mmhm. INTERVIEWER: And that was General Geiger, is that right? Roy S. Geiger. (31:01) INTERVIEWER: What was he like? What kind of a General was he? Pleasant? Was he a hardnose or? No, he wasn’t hard nosed, no at least as far as I didn’t see that much of him, but what I did see of him he was… pretty much of a personal person, I guess I would say. INTERVIEWER: Personable? Personable. INTERVIEWER: Now that's a famous name, what was he really known for? Did he go on to command and Army or? �Slager, Kenneth He became Commandant, I think, of the Marine Corps. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and would that have been after the war then? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Vandegrift was Commandant during the war. INTERVIEWER: Okay… And he had been Commandant of the 3rd Amphibious Corps as well. INTERVIEWER: Was General Vandergrift, was he commanding general during the invasion of Guadalcanal, do you remember? Geiger was. INTERVIEWER: Oh Geigar was, okay. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So at that point then— Oh, no, at Guadalcanal? I think Vandergrift was it. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: And then he became the Commandant of the Marine Corps, and then after the war General Geiger became Commandant. That’s where I recall the name from, I guess. Yup. INTERVIEWER: The list of Commandants. He was Commander of the 3rd Amphibious Corps. (32:36) INTERVIEWER: Lemme just ask you then, how did you keep in touch with your family then? By letter or telephone or what? �Slager, Kenneth No telephone, just by what they called Vmail. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I’ve heard of that. You’d write it and they would— INTERVIEWER: What was that like, the Vmail? Take a picture of it and they could get it on film on a very small space and then when they got to the states they would… INTERVIEWER: Develop it and print it. Enlarge it again, send it to the family. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Then were you able to get mail back then from the states, too? Oh yeah? INTERVIEWER: In the same way, by Vmail? Mhmm. Or regular mail too. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? Took awhile, often, to catch up with us. INTERVIEWER: What was the food like overseas? What kinda food did you have? Rations most of the time. Good cereal the time, I should say, but for the most part we had good warm meals. INTERVIEWER: So hot meals and… did you have like, mess halls? Not the first few days of an invasion but after you got set up, set up the kitchen, we had pretty good meals. INTERVIEWER: Did you have like, a regular mess hall or a vehicle or like a tent? Probably a tent, yes. A large tent. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. �Slager, Kenneth Yeah. INTERVIEWER: But the important thing was at least the meal was hot, right? Right. INTERVIEWER: And did you have plenty—or did you have enough supplies I should say? Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: As far as clothing? When we were on MP duty we could go to the front of the chow line. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. That was nice for us but the other guys didn’t appreciate it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah but if you go through the chow line real quick then you gotta go back on duty, isn’t that right? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yup, that was the idea. Probably get a half hour for meal time. INTERVIEWER: Did you feel any stressful situations when you were deployed overseas? No. I suppose at times I did but the most difficult experience for me was… right after Okinawa was secured my cousin was in the Army and was assigned to Okinawa, he came to shore a day or two about the time it was secure, and he was standing guard duty two days after the island was declared secure and a sniper shot him. My folks sent me a letter telling me he was on Okinawa and where he was and asked me to look him up, which I did. I did, I caught a ride detail to the other side of the island and found his Sergeant and I said “Do you have a Jim Slager here?” and he said “We had a Jim Slager.” INTERVIEWER: He was killed in action? Yeah, by a sniper while he was standing guard duty, like I said just a couple days after he was on Okinawa and the island was supposedly secure. INTERVIEWER: Secured at that point. �Slager, Kenneth But I could not write that home. INTERVIEWER: Yup. If I had it would have been blacked out INTERVIEWER: They would have deleted it out of it. So my folks kept writing me, “Do you know anything about Jim, do you know anything about Jim?” and I couldn’t answer til about… I suppose 30 days they notified the parents. INTERVIEWER: So eventually—Jim’s parents eventually were notified by the military. You’re right. INTERVIEWER: And the word probably got back to your folks. Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: That he’d been killed. They lived a few blocks from each other. INTERVIEWER: Oh. Oh my, no… (pause) How did you and your fellow Marines entertain yourselves overseas? Oh, well we played a lot of volleyball. Which makes sense with everybody 6 feet tall or taller. That was one way. (37:48) INTERVIEWER: It must of been games of the MPs verses the Infantry, right? No, usually just among ourselves. INTERVIEWER: Oh! Yeah, and usually once the island was secured you’d have a day on and a day off of duty, and the day off you could play volleyball, polish your shoes… INTERVIEWER: Rest a little bit. Whatever, wash your clothes. And they often had programs in the evening—movies of some sort, take those in. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Did you have entertainers like the Bob Hope Troupe that visited you guys? We never had the Bob Hope, no. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Any other entertainer groups? Not that I can recall, no. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Okay…. Okay, after Okinawa where did you go then, Ken? After Okinawa was secured we went to Guam, back to Guam. INTERVIEWER: Back to Guam. And we were preparing to invade Tokyo Bay, that was our next assignment. INTERVIEWER: And that would have been Japan, then. Right. INTERVIEWER: What happened to stop that? Well, President Truman, Harry Truman, decided to drop the Atomic Bomb and subsequently the Japanese surrendered. INTERVIEWER: Were you on Guam at the time that happened? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: When the bombs were dropped and the Japanese surrendered? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Then after V-J Day, where did you go after that? Then we went to Tientsin, China. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And we were there four months. INTERVIEWER: Were you on duty there then or was that? �Slager, Kenneth Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: On duty? Okay. Yeah. I guess they were afraid that the Russians were going to invade China, and we were there to see that didn’t happen. (40:13) INTERVIEWER: Were you posted at a military base or? Well we had… no it was not a military base. It was converted into a military base but it was just a large building, what it had been before I don’t recall, but we were—the headquarters were right in the downtown area in another building which we had to… INTERVIEWER: You guarded that, then, as an MP, too? Make sure that was secure. And, uh… INTERVIEWER: Okay… Were you there with other large infantry units, too? I mean a lot of other military personnel in China? Tientsin? Well that I don’t really know. I’m sure there were but we didn’t really see many of them. We had, basically, Marine Corps and Navy personnel on our base and they… some of them would see the town in the evening, we had to make sure they got the right treatment after they came in, if they were obviously had taken too much alcohol. INTERVIEWER: Get them to their barracks. Directly to the sick bay. (41:45) INTERVIEWER: Were you able to travel at all in China on your own or on leave or anything? Not on my own. They did give us one week where our unit, or a good share of our unit, went to Beijing for a week. INTERVIEWER: I see. Did a lot of looking around the city. INTERVIEWER: It was like a period of R&R, of rest and recuperation? Right. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Okay, yup. And then after your four months in China, where did you go from there? Then we boarded the USS Roi and sailed for San Diego. We stopped in Pearl Harbor for 12 hours. Nobody got off ship but we saw our first Coke-a-Cola truck in 2 years which was kind of interesting, and then we went right into San Diego. INTERVIEWER: And how long did you spend in San Diego, then? Not too long, just a few days and then they shipped me to Great Lakes Naval Training Station for discharge. INTERVIEWER: Okay. So that’s where you were discharged was in Great Lakes, Illinois, then. Right. INTERVIEWER: Okay. What date was that, do you remember? The date? INTERVIEWER: Or even the month and year. Early March, I think I got home about March 5th or something. INTERVIEWER: And what year was that? That would be… ‘46. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And after that did you come back to Comstock, Kalamazoo? Went home. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Gladly, haha. Yup. INTERVIEWER: What do you remember about your first few days out of the Marine Corps and out of the military? Anything particular there? No, I don’t have any recollection. I guess I went back to work? INTERVIEWER: Okay. �Slager, Kenneth For my uncle, on the celery farm. And then in the fall, September, I enrolled at Calvin College. INTERVIEWER: In what college? In Calvin College? Mhmm. INTERVIEWER: I see. Yeah. Pre-sem course, pre-seminary. I decided while I was overseas—well actually, while overseas that I became a committed Christan and decided to go into the Ministry. INTERVIEWER: What sort of a conversion experience did you have there when you were overseas, anything specific about that? No, I just know that when it happened I was… well, just, there were other fellas who were also committed Christians and we soon worked together at different times when we were off duty, especially in China we went to different Youth for Christ meetings that they had there. That’s where we met a lady by the name of Mrs. Fan. INTERVIEWER: Mrss Fan? Mrs. Fan, F-A-N. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And she had us for dinner several times. Didn’t hurt that she had two or three young daughters, but it was a very nice family. She had been in the states for a while so she spoke very good English. INTERVIEWER: So that was a connection, then. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the language. Her husband was in South China overseeing some mining operation and we never met him but. Anyway, she even wrote a letter to my mother, to my folks, yeah. A very nice lady and… (46:23) INTERVIEWER: Did you take any photographs when you were overseas? I did not, no. INTERVIEWER: No photographs, okay. �Slager, Kenneth I did get pictures from other people but I didn’t have a camera myself. INTERVIEWER: Ken, when you enrolled in Calvin College as an undergrad did you know at that point that you wanted to go on and go through Seminary and become a pastor? Oh yeah, I was—my course was a Pre-seminary course, along with a lot of other vets. INTERVIEWER: Did you have the GI bill to help pay for it? Yes I did. INTERVIEWER: To help pay for that? Okay. For all the seven years except for one semester and then my wife was teaching so we could live on her, quote-unquote, “salary”. INTERVIEWER: I see. And you went through Calvin Seminary also, is that about right? Right. INTERVIEWER: Okay. For three years. INTERVIEWER: And you became an ordained Christian Reform Minister? Right. INTERVIEWER: Alright. Willmar, Minnesota. W-I-L-L-M-A-R. INTERVIEWER: Minnesota, that was your first church then, am I right? Right. INTERVIEWER: And was Willmar CRC? Christian Reform Church? Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. It was just a new congregation, I was a new resident pastor. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: Let me back up, you gave me a little clue here that you were married. When did you marry and what was her name? My wife’s maiden name was Alice Klein, K-L-E-I-N. INTERVIEWER: I see, and when? And we were married August 26th, 1949. INTERVIEWER: ‘49… was she a fellow student? Yes. INTERVIEWER: At Calvin, that’s how you met her? We met on the first day I was on campus. She had grown up in Detroit and had worked for Sanders Candy Company for several years and then came to Calvin, she had been there about a week I think, helping out with enrollment and so-on, working in the office and… another fella from Kalamazoo and I were walking together, we had just signed up for the GI Bill and I was telling him they had to—they were gonna send our applications to Detroit, as she was coming down the steps. And she said “Detroit, Detroit, did you say Detroit?” Well, that’s when we met. INTERVIEWER: That’s how you met, talk about Detroit. But I—we didn’t date until the following March. INTERVIEWER: I see. And then I had asked Mike Harvey Bulchum, my roommate, exactly who she was I couldn’t recall which gal it was, I knew I wanted to meet her but I couldn’t remember who she was. He told me. INTERVIEWER: Yeah…Well, backing up just a second here back to your time after the military then, Ken, did you make any lasting relationships with the people that you served with in the Marine Corps? For a year or two we did, and I don’t remember how many years it was afterwards we had a gather in the Illinois area, but that was the only time I did keep in touch with the few individuals. INTERVIEWER: Oh, do you remember their names? Especially one in California… The name won’t come to me now, but… INTERVIEWER: That’s alright. �Slager, Kenneth Russ Carver. INTERVIEWER: Ross Carter? Russ Carver. INTERVIEWER: C-A-R-V-E-R? Mmhm. INTERVIEWER: Okay… and he was in California then, right? He lived in Northern California. INTERVIEWER: Okay… Did you join any veterans organizations? No. INTERVIEWER: Okay. No, I was busy enough without. (50:58) INTERVIEWER: Alright. Then you get the church affiliated organizations keeping you going. Okay. I kinda thought I would have you speak a little then about where you served as a minister in the Christian Reform Church. You mentioned Willmar, Minnesota as your first church, where did you go after Willmar? A church called Lincoln Center which was in Grundy Center, Iowa. INTERVIEWER: I see. And then to the northwest Iowa town called Sibley. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And from there I went to Vancouver, Washington where I was an initial pastor of a new congregation. And then— INTERVIEWER: Was that Vancouver, Trinity? Vancouver, Washington. INTERVIEWER: Was that Trinity Christian Reform Church? �Slager, Kenneth Yes. INTERVIEWER: I see, okay, in Vancouver, Washington? Yeah. It’s right on the Columbia River across from Portland, Oregon. And then we went to Monroe, Washington which is northeast of Seattle. INTERVIEWER: Okay… was that New Hope Fellowship? That’s what they call it now. INTERVIEWER: Okay. That’s the name now then, I understand. When did you retire, then? INTERVIEWER: 1983. Or, 19… my pension began in January 1 of 1983. I see. INTERVIEWER: Did you retire in 1988 then? Pardon? INTERVIEWER: Was it actually 1988 when you stopped working? Well, it was actually just November of ‘87. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. For as far as Social Security was concerned. INTERVIEWER: Okay. As far as the pension it was January 1 of ‘88, so. INTERVIEWER: Okay. After you served your last church and retired from the Christian Reform Church as a minister, Ken, where did you move from there? We moved back to Michigan to my hometown into the house I grew up in and we were there about 19 years, then we moved to Grand Rapids. INTERVIEWER: I see. Did your parents lived in the house when you first moved back? �Slager, Kenneth No. My father had died and my mother was in assisted living and the house was vacant. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. So, I retired a little bit early and moved in and kinda helped take care of my mother. INTERVIEWER: Right. Ken, let me just ask you about your military experience and how that might have influenced your thinking about war and about the military in general. And let me also add your later experience as a minister—either of those things, you know, the experience the military, any particular thing. (54:11) Well, I think the one thing that I got into because of my military experience was chaplain for the Civil Air Patrol. INTERVIEWER: I see. And that was for… ended up being about 35 years in different locations, including Vancouver and Monroe; Everett, Washington and Kalamazoo and Battle Creek, Michigan after I moved back here. INTERVIEWER: Were you able to fly with some of the pilots with civil air patrol? One time. INTERVIEWER: One time, okay. You were mainly a chaplain, then. And my wife and the youngest daughter went along, too. INTERVIEWER: Oh, good. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Good, yeah. But then did your experience in the military and later as a minister, that particularly affect your thinking about the military and the war in general. Probably. I don’t recall that it, you know that I specifically applied military experience, but I’m sure that it affected me. INTERVIEWER: Okay. (The camera view changes to show a patch and three medals on a white background, from left to right. The patch is red and shaped like a shield, with the numeral III and what looks like snake or dragon embroidered in yellow. From left to right, the medals appear as: navy, yellow, white, and red stripes with a medallion with the image of a woman; yellow, white, and dark red stripes �Slager, Kenneth with a medallion featuring [UNKNOWN]; yellow and two thin red strips with a medallion featuring [UNKNOWN]. Erikson is pointing at the items individually with a pen.) INTERVIEWER: Now, Ken, we have several medals and a patch here. What is this patch? That’s the designation of 3rd Amphibious Corps. INTERVIEWER: And you wore that on your uniform? Yes. INTERVIEWER: Is that right? On our sleeve. INTERVIEWER: Right. And what is this medal? World War II medal. INTERVIEWER: World War II medal, right. (Erikson points to the second medal.) This is the Asia-Pacific campaign? Yes. (Erikson points to the third medal.) And China. INTERVIEWER: And China service, okay. Mhmm. (56:02) (The scene changes. On a white piece of paper are two objects: a religious service brochure for the III Amphibious Corps (left) and a booklet detailing the activities of the III Amphibious Corps in World War II (right).) INTERVIEWER: Okay, this brochure looks like a religious service Order of Worship, is that right? Yes, at the conclusion of the war, gratitude for peace. INTERVIEWER: I see. That the war was over. �Slager, Kenneth INTERVIEWER: And this booklet here, what is that? That’s just telling about the first activities of the 3rd Amphibious Corps. INTERVIEWER: I see. Up until the Invasion of Guam. INTERVIEWER: Okay. (56:40) (The scene changes. A garrison cap sits on a white sheet of paper.) INTERVIEWER: Now the garrison cover here, again, was that yours during the war? Yes it was. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Yes. INTERVIEWER: With the— Part of my uniform. INTERVIEWER: —Eagle, globe and anchor here. That’s right. Eagle, globe and anchor. INTERVIEWER: Alright. (The camera view changes. It is a headshot of Slager, but the background has changed.) INTERVIEWER: Well Ken we’re about at the end here, let me just ask you is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? That I’d like to add? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, right. Not that I can think of right now. INTERVIEWER: Okay. �Slager, Kenneth Thankfully got home safely. INTERVIEWER: Well we’re glad that came about. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And we’re glad the Lord watched over you while you were overseas. Right. INTERVIEWER: Watched over your family throughout your career as a minister here in the United States. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Well I wanna thank you about your sharing your recollections with us about your military service, and I want to add that the interview is going to be part of the Veterans History Project at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. and also will be part of the archive at Grand Valley State University in Allendale, Michigan. Again I want to thank you for participating in the Veterans History Interview. No, thank you for asking me. INTERVIEWER: You’re quite welcome. Including me. INTERVIEWER: Thank you, Ken. (58:25) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SlagerK1767V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Slager, Kenneth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05 Title A name given to the resource Slager, Kenneth (Interview transcript and video), 2015 Description An account of the resource Kenneth Slager was born on June 11, 1925 in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where his father worked for Upjohn Pharmaceutical Company. Slager was the oldest of four children in his deeply religious family, attended Kalamazoo Christian High School, and worked for his uncle’s celery field during his early teenage years. He received a draft notice in the summer of 1943 and opted to volunteer for the Marine Corps. He underwent Basic Training in San Diego and spent two months in Marine Boot Camp before graduating onto two months of Advanced Infantry Training. He was then shipped to New Caledonia and then Guadalcanal aboard the USS President Tyler, without escort, in a Replacement Battalion. Slager arrived at Guadalcanal after the fighting had receded and was assigned to a Military Police Company in the Headquarters Battalion, Third Amphibious Corps. As an MP, he escorted Admirals and Generals, guarded gates and entrances, directed traffic, guarded the Corps’ Brigg, as well as raised and lowered the American flag each day. From Guadalcanal, Slager was involved in the invasion of Guam in the summer of 1944 and was also allocated towards the invasion of Okinawa where he escorted high-ranking personnel. Slager’s cousin was also serving in Okinawa in the Army, but he was killed by an enemy sniper while on guard duty, which was devastating for Slager. From Okinawa, he was transferred back to Guam in preparation for the proposed invasion of Tokyo Bay, Japan. However, the invasion was called off after the use of the atomic bombs leading to its unconditional surrender. Slager was then sent to China for four months under fears that the Soviet Union would stage an invasion of China. Afterwards, he was shipped back to the San Diego aboard the USS Roi and was transferred to Great Lakes Naval Station for discharge in March of 1946. Slager then returned home to Kalamazoo, enrolled into Calvin College, became an Ordained Christian Reformed Minister out of Willmar, Minnesota, and married his wife in August of 1949. He fully retired by January of 1988 and decided to move back to his childhood home to take care of his elderly mother before moving to Grand Rapids, Michigan and partaking in the Civil Air Patrol. Reflecting upon his service, Slager did not believe that the Corps left a lasting impression on his character other than exposing him to a personal religious awakening in China. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e12fe26d95a109438d5499362288ec74.mp4 d149a59509eaae6e7e030a05ba619f07 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4bc4d8e128d73967b372fc4059a5e325.pdf 5268c119337d65f9ba4de1757e7a9184 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Ralph Slager World War II-Post War 28 minutes 52 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born in Comstock, Michigan on January 9, 1928 -Grew up in Comstock and lived there until he got married -His father worked in a lumberyard then for the Upjohn Company during World War II -He had steady work during the Great Depression -The pay wasn’t good, but it was consistent -He had one brother and two sisters -He was the third child (00:01:19) World War II -Remembers hearing President Roosevelt’s “Day of Infamy” speech -Remembers the paperboys hawking newspapers after Pearl Harbor was bombed -The attack came as surprise to him because he didn’t know about Japan’s ambitions -Remembers the rationing of tires, gasoline, and sugar going into effect -He became involved with local paper drives where he would meet his future wife -Seemed that the war would go on long enough that he would have to serve (00:02:50) Enlisting in the Army -He graduated in June 1945 while the war was still on -He was seventeen at the time though which meant he was safe from getting drafted -He had worked on celery farms growing up but knew he didn’t want to do that as a career -Prior to receiving his draft notice he worked at an ice cream factory -Even after hostilities ceased the draft was still in effect -This was because the war wasn’t declared officially over until 1951 -He received his draft notice and reported to the local draft office -Told that if he accepted the draft he could be in for an indefinite amount of time -Went to an Army recruiter and was told about the perks of enlisting -He could sign up for an eighteen month commitment -He enlisted in the Army on March 8, 1946 -Reported to Fort Custer, Michigan for his Army physical -Reported to Fort Sheridan, Illinois to be inducted (00:05:37) Basic Training and Artillery Training -He was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training and artillery training -Processing involved getting a haircut, being given a uniform, and being assigned to a barracks -Trained by World War Two veterans that weren’t too hard on the new recruits -Trained with the 105mm howitzer and the M1 Carbine -There was a lot of marching and a heavy emphasis on discipline -If a recruit didn’t follow orders they would be assigned to kitchen patrol duty -Artillery training began with getting acquainted with the howitzer -Learning about the parts of the gun and how it worked -Received field training with the 105mm howitzer, learning how to load and fire it �-Remembers pulling the lanyard and watching the shell being shot -Learned how to calculate coordinates for the gun -Using wind speed and how to adjust the elevation of the gun -Went out to the firing range for training with the M1 Carbine -He was accurate up to one hundred meters -He went on five mile marches around the base -Trained with men from Michigan, Indiana, and Pennsylvania -Spent three months at Fort Knox (00:10:30) Stationed at Camp Campbell -From Fort Knox he was sent to Camp Campbell (now Fort Campbell), Kentucky -Assigned to a signal company in the 5th Division -He doing general duty at the camp because he had no signal corps training -He stayed there for the rest of the summer of 1946 -He visited Clarksville, Tennessee a lot -Attended the Cumberland Presbyterian Church there -There were also bars to go to off base, but most of the men in the unit were more reserved -Remembers that it was hotter at Camp Campbell than it was at Fort Knox (00:13:00) Radio Training -He was sent up to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey for high speed radio operator training -Learning how to receive and translate Morse code -He had to be able to receive and type twenty five words per minute -He took typing in high school which helped him with that -It was still a challenging process and took some getting used to -There was a morning session and an afternoon session that he attended -The school was one mile from his barracks -Every day he and the other men would march there and back -Stayed at Fort Monmouth for five months -He was allowed to go off base there -Visited Long Branch, New Jersey and found a church to attend there -Visited New York City with a friend from Kalamazoo -Travelled there via bus -Got to visit the Empire State Building th -The 5 Division was deactivated so he was reassigned to the 3rd Division (00:16:48) Stationed at Fort Meade -The 3rd Division was based out of Fort George Gordon Meade, Maryland -He reported to Fort Meade in late February (or early March) 1947 -He was assigned to a signal company there -There were roughly 160 men in the signal company -At that time the Ohio River would flood every spring -Mobile units would be sent out to the flooded banks of the Ohio River -During that time he would report to the Army Headquarters in Baltimore -Travelled there by bus from Fort Meade -He was the chief radio operator, maintaining contact with the mobile units -Had to deal with a tremendous amount of static due to being in the city -The mobile units were looking for any emergency situations or people that needed help -Similar to things that the National Guard would do �-After flood season he was assigned to the Army hospital at Fort Meade -Working as one of the announcers and disc jockeys for the hospital’s radio network -His job was to read the news, make announcements, and play music -Did that duty until he was discharged -Enjoyed that duty -He would take requests for music and would play a wide variety of music -Fort Meade was twenty five miles from Baltimore so he pretty much stayed on base (00:22:48) Beginning of the Cold War -Remembers when the Marshall Plan began and thought it was right to help the Europeans -Provision of aid to help the recovery of allies and former enemies -Remembers hearing about the Berlin Airlift -Provision of food to Berlin after the Soviets blockaded the city -Would have been after he got discharged, but it was still a moment of tension -As the Cold War began there was fear that his time in the Army might be lengthened -China was still fighting a civil war and tensions were rising with the Soviets (00:23:56) End of Service -There was an offer for him to reenlist -There was no chance that he could be promoted though -Decided that if there was no career it would be best to get out -Got discharged on September 7, 1947 (00:24:56) Life after the War -Came home and joined the Christian Male Chorus on September 17, 1947 -Organization that one of his wife’s relatives had started -He is still active in it today and still performs -Attended Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan for one semester -Decided that college just wasn’t for him -He went to work as a buffer for Gibson Guitars -After Gibson he worked for Atlas Press which made home tools -He was given an assignment to design a tool and enjoyed doing that -Began taking night classes to get shop training and got a job in the tool room -Wanted to learn how to make tools that people would like using -Spent two years in the tool room and became an apprentice tool maker -Gradually worked into engineering -He was later hired into Brunswick School Furniture -Worked there for twelve years as a tool designer until he was laid off -Went to work for Pemco Wheel Company in Kalamazoo -Worked there for eight years as a tool designer until he got laid off in 1982 -Went to work for Lear Siegler Inc. Plastics in Mendon, Michigan -Worked there for twelve years and then retired (00:28:08) Reflections on Service -Learned how to pick and choose what to say and when to say it -Taught him how to be disciplined -Got to meet a lot of good people -Got the chance to travel around part of the United States -Enjoyed his time in the service, but was ready to go home when it was done � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SlagerR1767V Title A name given to the resource Slager, Ralph (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-18 Description An account of the resource Ralph Slager was born in Comstock, Michigan on January 9, 1928. He grew up in Comstock during the Great Depression and World War Two and graduated in June 1945. The draft was still in effect after the war ended, and after turning eighteen in January 1946 he was susceptible to being drafted. He decided to enlist in the Army for an eighteen month commitment on March 8, 1946. He reported to Fort Custer, Michigan and Fort Sheridan, Illinois for his physical and getting inducted, and was then sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training and artillery training. He was then stationed at Camp Campbell, Kentucky with a signal company in the 5th Division, and then was sent to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey for high speed radio operator training. After that training he was reassigned to a signal company in the 3rd Division at Fort Meade, Maryland where he worked as a radio operator in Baltimore, Maryland and at a hospital on base. He was discharged on September 7, 1947. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Slager, Ralph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b1a52e8d8eb20426283dc1b0c4473c9.pdf 42a1ade6039e72cb4b1c5c0fa2b43c31 PDF Text Text The transition to online classes due to the coronavirus outbreak was very sudden and stressful. It was mentioned by several of my professors a few days before the switch that it would likely happen, but I did not really think much of it until I received the email about classes being cancelled for a few days and then the return with remote learning. For the most part, all of my professors have been very good about staying in touch with me and their other students. They want their students to be reaching out to them to make sure that everything is going well and to use them as a resource if they need to talk about anything. I think that although this is a new experience for a lot of us as students and faculty, we were able to get through it and handle it together. Along with taking classes, I was involved in a student organization that was affected by COVID-19. I was a part of momentum, which is a student-run dance organization on campus. We hold a show every semester, and the money that we raise from the shows gets donated to a cause we have picked. We had been practicing all semester for our show, which would have been held the last weekend in March. Once online classes were implemented for the remaining of the semester, practices and the show were also cancelled. Unfortunately, we were unable to put on a show and raise money this semester, but we were still able to make the best of the situation. Each group sent in a video of what was completed of their dance, and we were able to watch everyone’s pieces for the semester. For the remaining of the semester, I chose to stay at my off-campus apartment. Two of my other roommates also chose to stay instead of going home. We are trying to live life as normal as possible although it is somewhat hard with our now altered schedules. We have been getting up in the morning to workout together, doing our separate classwork, and then if it is �nice outside, we will try to go for a walk to get out of the house and get some fresh air. I think that with all things considered, I have been able to adjust pretty fast and well to this temporary way of living. From what I can tell, other people that I know, including all of my family, are getting through this tough time as best as they can. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Semester Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Slais, Tianna Description An account of the resource Journal of GVSU student Tiana Slais' experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-04-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-04-20_SlaisTianna Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f28204f59839141f2f15e8a1dafac40a.m4v 59ffdcce99161624524ed24c1329bc0e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b6ae4ed0c100211f0fa70849a7adda70.pdf 1883a24b741bccfd17f7e234846de753 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Everett Slaughter Jr. Vietnam War 1 hour 37 minutes 46 seconds (00:00:23) Early Life -Born on September 15, 1946, in Fayetteville, Arkansas -Grew up in the town of Elkins 12 miles east of Fayetteville -Father worked as an auto body worker -Mother worked as a nurse’s aid -Kicked out of high school in ninth grade -Worked in a gas station, and in a turkey processing factory (00:01:49) Volunteering for the Draft -Brother came home from and encouraged Everett to join the military -Volunteered for the draft in 1965 -Volunteering for the draft meant getting the draft service done before being called to serve -Better than waiting for the draft notice to come -Shorter enlistment (two years) as opposed to enlisting (four years) (00:02:55) Basic Training Pt. 1 -Reported for basic training on May 25, 1965 -Aware of the developing situation in Vietnam -Marines entered Vietnam in March 1965, and the Army followed in May 1965 -Sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for basic training -It was difficult because of the heat in the summer -Did his basic training in June and July -Came home for two weeks of leave after basic training (00:04:27) Advanced Individual Training Pt. 1 -Returned to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for advanced individual training (AIT) -Did AIT in August and September 1965 -Had the military occupational specialty of 11-Hotel (antitank soldier) (00:04:42) Basic Training Pt. 2 -Basic training started with marching and drills to instill cohesion as a unit -Received basic weapons training with a focus on using a rifle -Learned about basic infantry tactics -Received some First Aid training -Strong emphasis on discipline -Kept in the company area for the first month of basic training -In the second month recruits were allowed to go to the PX (Army general store) and movies -Too scared to do anything but follow the orders of drill sergeants -Adjusted well partly because of that fear -In good physical shape for basic training (00:06:50) Advanced Individual Training Pt. 2 -During AIT he received his military occupational specialty training -His AIT focused on using antitank weapons -106mm, 90 mm recoilless rifles and 3.5 inch rocket launcher -He never fired a live round during AIT, but they had old tanks as targets -AIT lasted six weeks �(00:09:30) First Deployment to Vietnam -Told to report to the 1st sergeant in the orderly room at Fort Polk -Received his deployment orders for Vietnam -First man in his company to Vietnam -Ultimately deployed with ten other men from his unit -Placed on a train bound for Oakland, California -Stayed in a large, 10,000-man reception center for outgoing soldiers -Stayed for a week doing processing and work details -Flew out of Travis Air Force Base -Stopped at Guam and the Philippines -Flew on a C-141 transport (00:11:40) Arrival in Vietnam -Landed at Tan Son Nhut Airbase near Saigon -Incredibly hot, and it felt like walking into a furnace -Stayed at a reception center for four or five days while he waited for his unit assignment (00:12:25) Assignment to 1st Infantry Division -Assigned to A Company, 2nd Battalion, 18th Infantry Regiment of the 1st Infantry Division -Taken to Bien Hoa by truck -2nd Battalion had a base near Bien Hoa in the middle of the jungle -Every smaller unit wanted a new soldier -Placed in the mortars & antitank platoon -They were on the base at the time -He was assigned to a gun crew -Four men per gun, and he worked as a loader (or assistant gunner) -Had a 460 pound gun that fired 54 pound rounds -High-explosive antitank (HEAT), fragmentation, and flechette round -Stayed on the base at Bien Hoa for four or five days doing training and trash detail (00:16:22) Patrols around Bien Hoa -Got his first patrol mission four or five days after joining the unit -Went into the jungle for a patrol -Taken to the area of operations by truck -Patrolled for one or two weeks then returned to base -Left the 460 pound gun on base during routine patrols -Carried three mortar shells, and he was the radio-telephone operator so he carried the PRC-25 radio -Sometimes they encountered resistance, and other times they didn’t -Got into one bad firefight where they sustained a lot of casualties -Typically fought against the Viet Cong -In October 1965, the North Vietnamese had yet to penetrate that far into South Vietnam -Saw a lot of booby traps -Mechanical traps like trip-wire bombs, and primitive traps like punji pits -Once in a while they encountered snipers -Usually ambushed the Viet Cong, not the other way around -Operated as a company on patrols, making them a strong force in the region -Received intelligence about areas with enemy presence, then went to investigate -In the particularly bad firefight they were taken to a landing zone by helicopter -He was the radio-telephone operator, so he called in medevac helicopters to get the wounded -Had more wounded than dead soldiers -Pushed the Viet Cong out of the area and inflicted heavy casualties on the Viet Cong -Left behind a lot of dead bodies �(00:22:37) Contact with Vietnamese Pt. 1 -He didn’t have to deal with the Rules of Engagement because he was a radio operator -Had a South Vietnamese policeman with his company -Interrogated prisoners-of-war on site before sending them to the rear for processing -Patrolled through larger villages -Remembers they thoroughly searched one village -The Americans searched the houses -South Vietnamese interrogated villagers about ties to the Viet Cong (00:24:40) Further Patrols -Moved to Di An Base Camp for the last four months of his first tour in Vietnam -Defoliated area with a built-up base -There was a sniper that shot at the base, but the sniper wasn’t a good shot -Continued patrols out of the new base -Operated in jungles and rice paddies -Operated out of the abandoned Michelin Rubber Plantation for one month (00:26:36) Contact with Vietnamese Pt. 2 -Found the Vietnamese people to be small people -Didn’t think about them much unless they were a combatant (00:27:20) Awareness of Vietnam War -Didn’t know why he was in Vietnam aside from the fact that there was a war -Came to understand that the Vietnam War was, essentially, a civil war -The North and South fighting for total control of the country (00:27:53) Visiting Saigon -Visited Saigon a couple times, both for business and relaxation -Brought a supply sergeant to Tan Son Nhut Airbase to gather supplies -Went to downtown Saigon a couple times to visit the bars -Crowded city, and he never saw so many bicycles -Roads were filled with people, which came as a surprise to him -Dropped off in downtown Saigon and told to be back at the drop off point by 6 p.m. -Told to stay away from the women due to venereal diseases (00:29:37) Morale on the First Tour -Morale seemed to be good -Enjoyable time even being in Vietnam -Had good commissioned officers and experienced non-commissioned officers -Platoon sergeant was a good man -A couple of the sergeants had been in the Army for a few years (00:31:26) R&R on First Tour -Got an R&R to Bangkok, Thailand -Enjoyed visiting the city -Given the choice of locale to visit, and allowed to pick the time to go on R&R -Able to go bowling, swimming, to relax, and there were women -Relaxing to not be in a war zone -Chance to lie beside a pool and sleep without worrying about being attacked -Depressing to return to Vietnam even though his first tour had gone well (00:33:11) Drug Use & Race Relations on First Tour -A few men smoked weed, but they only did that on base -Platoon sergeant and section sergeant were black men, and there was a Native American in his unit -Rest of the men in the platoon were white -Everyone seemed to get along well with each other �(00:34:38) Section Sergeant Wounded -Remembers when his section sergeant got paralyzed from the waist down -He was lying beside Everett during a firefight, and a piece of shrapnel hit him in the back -Everett carried him off the battlefield when the fight ended (00:35:22) End of First Tour & Reenlisting -His first tour ended in October 1966 -He had decided to stay in the Army -Made the decision when he initially joined the Army -Liked being a soldier (00:36:15) Stationed at Fort Jackson -Stationed at Fort Jackson, South Carolina -Reenlisted at Fort Jackson three months after his arrival -Served as instructor on the M16 rifle range -Still relatively new weapon and preceded by the M14 -M14: 9 pounds, long rifle, .308 rounds, and heavy ammo -M16: 5 pounds, short rifle, and smaller and lighter ammo -M16 had technical problems -Jammed easily (even though he never encountered that) -M16 was an improved weapon, but he preferred the M14 for its durability and accuracy -Stationed at Fort Jackson for one year (00:40:17) Stationed in Panama -Received orders for the Panama Canal Zone -Part of infantry training with A Company in the 10th Infantry Regiment -Trained at the Jungle School -Learned how to survive and fight in the jungle -Did navigation courses -Every day he did something different -Rappelling courses, escape & evasion, and river crossing exercises -During mock combat, he played the enemy -Served at the Jungle School for three or four months -Stationed in the Panama Canal Zone for 18 months (00:43:05) Stationed at Fort Benning -Sent to Fort Benning, Georgia -Worked as a supply clerk for training command -Dealt with general supplies and ammunition -He was an E4 (specialist or corporal) -It was like having a regular day job at Fort Benning -Worked from 7:30 or 8 a.m. to 4:30 or 5 p.m. -Lived in the barracks on base -Happy when that assignment ended because office work bored him -Stationed at Fort Benning for six months (00:44:57) Redeployment to Vietnam & Assignment to 101st Airborne Division -Received orders for another deployment to Vietnam -Didn’t have to do any additional training since he’d already qualified with the M16 rifle -Sent to Washington and took a chartered commercial flight to Vietnam -Arrived at Tan Son Nhut Airbase -Sent up to Phu Bai, then to Camp Evans -On his second tour, he went to Vietnam as a replacement -Assigned to B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, of the 101st Airborne Divsion �-Stayed at Camp Evans for three or four days -Issued supplies, an M16 rifle, a rucksack, and ammunition -Took a helicopter to Firebase Ripcord, and another helicopter to B Company in the field -Joined B Company in April 1970 -Did the Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School at Camp Eagle in Phu Bai -Went on patrols near Camp Eagle, but nothing much happened -SERTS was more for the men that had never been to Vietnam -He was the only replacement with one tour under his belt (00:48:40) Firebase Ripcord -Firebase Ripcord was established to support infantry in the A Shau Valley -It essentially spent its entire existence in a defensive situation -It was 3,000 feet above sea level, and he was able to look down and see the clouds -Firebase was surrounded by jungle -Had mortars, howitzers, defenses, and one infantry company defending the base (00:50:43) Patrols with B Company -Met a platoon from B Company at a landing zone in the jungle -Platoon had blown up the trees to form a temporary landing zone for him -Platoon greeted him, and they seemed glad to get a new soldier -First night in the field he patrolled the night defensive position perimeter -No contact with enemy forces for the first few weeks -There were about 30 men in the platoon -Made their own trails, because established trails were susceptible to ambushes -Stayed in the field for a month -Resupplied by helicopter -Spent days on patrol looking for enemy forces or enemy supplies -Killed the enemy soldiers, and destroyed the enemy supplies -Found ammunition, food, medical supplies, sleeping gear, and clothing -Took no casualties during his first month with B Company -Rotated onto Ripcord, then off for patrols, then on again (00:56:22) Battle of Firebase Ripcord Pt. 1 -On Firebase Ripcord when the battle began on July 1, 1970 -It was relaxing on the base except when the North Vietnamese attacked the base with artillery -Happened every time a helicopter came to the firebase -North Vietnamese had artillery in the hills around Ripcord -Difficult to find and almost impossible to destroy -Had noticed more enemy activity in June 1970 -B Company got lucky being stationed on Ripcord when the battle began -Didn’t get into any major firefights during his time with B Company (00:59:06) Stand Down at Camp Evans -Went to Camp Evans for stand downs -Did a major stand down in June before the battle in July -Chance to see a doctor, deal with personal things, and go to the rifle range -Also a chance to shower, got hot food, and a pair of new boots (01:00:05) Battle of Firebase Ripcord Pt. 2 -Battle began in earnest on July 2nd with the Battle of Hill 902 -B Company was guarding the base during the battle -He was in a bunker near a helipad and M45 Quadmount positions -Set out mines at night and patrolled the perimeter -Had barbed and concertina wire around the base, and foo gas (barrels of makeshift napalm) �-The siege of Ripcord lasted a little over three weeks when the firebase fell on July 23rd -When the helicopters came in he always hunkered down in his bunker -Remembers a Huey helicopter getting shot down over the helipad by his bunker -North Vietnamese used 120mm artillery rounds and mortars to bombard the base -The bunker was not designed to take a direct hit, but to protect from shrapnel -Dug into the earth, corrugated steel roof, and sandbags on top of the roof -Didn’t see enemy troops outside of the perimeter -One American soldier accidentally got outside the perimeter -The other soldiers mistook him from an enemy soldier and threw grenades at him -He took cover behind a rock and survived the ordeal without getting hurt -Chinook helicopter crashed on July 18th destroying the artillery and the artillery ammunition -Saw the helicopter come in, go down, the explosion of the crash, then the secondary explosions -Stayed in his bunker until all the ammunition exploded (01:09:36) Contact with Vietnamese Pt. 3 -Had a Chieu Hoi scout in his platoon -Note: Chieu Hoi scouts were North Vietnamese defectors that joined the US/South Vietnam -The scout was no help at all (01:10:30) Fall of Firebase Ripcord -On July 23rd, the evacuation of Firebase Ripcord began -He left his bunker and destroyed his grenade cache -Saw a wounded man and helped carry him to one of the helicopters -Colonel Lucas, the commander of 2nd Battalion, was killed-in-action during the evacuation -Boarded one of the last helicopters and flew to Camp Evans -Once all Americans were off Ripcord, B-52 bombers destroyed the firebase (01:13:38) Patrols after Ripcord -Took a chance to relax, regroup, and get new gear since he left everything on Firebase Ripcord -Allowed to relax at Camp Evans for one week -Continued with patrols in the jungle -Stopped at Firebase Rakkasan briefly -Patrolled the hills in the jungles, had minimal contact, and never went into the A Shau Valley -Mostly operated in the Lowlands (01:15:45) Morale on Second Tour -Morale was pretty good considering what had happened at Firebase Ripcord -Went to Camp Eagle on occasion -Chance to drink and watch Vietnamese bands perform (01:16:30) R&R on Second Tour -Took his R&R to Taiwan -Guide took him to theaters, movies, and to live performances -Enjoyed his time in Taiwan (01:17:24) Race Relations in Second Tour -Had two or three black men in his platoon in B Company -Never saw racism or tension (01:18:30) End of Second Tour -Spent the last 30 days of his second tour at Camp Evans -Checked perimeter bunkers and assigned positions -Brought the men food and coffee -Caught some men asleep during guard duty (01:19:45) Drug Use in Second Tour -Saw some men throwing up after leaving the mess hall �-He joked about the food being bad -Told that the men were heroin users, and eating made them sick (01:20:30) Stationed in West Germany -Returned to the United States then received orders for a tour in Germany -Sent to Augsburg, Germany, to join the 1st Battalion, 18th Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Division -Relocated to Stuttgart -Most of the non-commissioned officers had served in Vietnam -There was more racial tension in Germany than in Vietnam -Didn’t affect everyone, and he never saw it in his platoon, but knew it existed -Didn’t have any problems with the Germans -They seemed friendly -Welcomed American soldiers because they spent money at German businesses -Went on a field exercise -Ran into Germans having a BBQ -Germans invited the soldiers to sit and eat with them, so they did -Soviet invasion was always in the back of his mind -Stationed on the Fulda Gap if the Soviet Union invaded western Europe -Patrolled the area several times -Had gun positions and TOW missiles -Had fallback positions -Did three tours in Germany, for a total of 10 ½ years -In Augsburg during the Munich 1972 Olympics (01:27:00) Getting Married -Went to Turkey in August 1972 to get married -Friend married a Turkish woman, and invited Everett to a party -The friend’s wife had invited a Turkish friend, Everett met her, and they began dating -Got married in Istanbul -Nice city filled with old American cars -Turks bought cars from American servicemen before they went home (01:29:15) Army Career -Stayed in the Army for 20 years and retired in 1985 -Did three years with the 1st Infantry Division in Germany (first tour in West Germany) -Sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana, to serve as a TOW missile instructor -In the Army during its transition to an all-volunteer military -A lot of high school graduates looking for college payment -Young people looking for guidance -Some young people given the option of joining the Army, or going to jail -Found the draft to be more of an equalizer, but the all-volunteer Army worked -Did a second tour in Germany with the 1st Armored Division -Worked with antitank systems and armored personnel carriers -Similar to his first tour in Germany -Lived in government quarters off base with his wife -Stationed there for four years -Sent to Fort Carson, Colorado, to serve with the 4th Infantry Division -Wife enjoyed the United States -Got her driver’s license -Had two children -Stationed there for one year -Returned to Germany for another tour in Wurzburg �-Stationed there for 3 ½ years -Retired after his third tour in Germany (01:33:29) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -Didn’t like Germany because it was so cold -His best assignment was Panama -Worked from 4 a.m. to 2 p.m. then spent the rest of the day at the beach (01:34:22) Life after Service -Got a job in Turkey and worked for a company for one year -Lost his work visa due to politics -Returned to the United States, but his son got accepted into a prestigious Turkish school -Came back to Turkey, got a job with his old company, and worked in Istanbul -Has two homes: one in the United States and one in Turkey -He and his wife live in Turkey for about nine months out of the year -Come back to the US for three months out of the year to visit family and friends -His daughter lives in Washington, and his siblings still live in Arkansas (01:37:15) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -Army made him a better person -More understanding of different people -More appreciative of different kinds of people � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SlaughterE1964V Title A name given to the resource Slaughter, Everett Jr (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-06 Description An account of the resource Everett Slaughter Jr. was born in Fayetteville, Arkansas, on September 15, 1946. He volunteered for the draft in April 1965. He received his basic training and advanced individual training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. For his first tour in Vietnam he was deployed in October 1965 and he joined A Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 18th Infantry Regiment of the 1st Infantry Division. They operated around Bien Hoa for eight months, then four months around Di An Base Camp. He returned to the United States and worked as an instructor on the rifle range at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, then went to the Panama Canal Zone to serve with A Company in the 10th Infantry Regiment. He worked at Fort Benning, Georgia, as a supply clerk before receiving orders for a second deployment to Vietnam. He arrived in Vietnam in April 1970 and joined B Company of 2nd Battalion of the 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. They patrolled around Firebase Ripcord from April through June, and were on Ripcord during the battle in July 1970. He completed his second tour in April 1971. He ultimately spent 20 years in the Army serving in West Germany three separate times, at Fort Polk as TOW missile instructor, and at Fort Carson, Colorado. He retired in 1985. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Slaughter, Everett Jr. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4bb7675afc8d2e858dde38e74d71b9ab.mp4 a6f56c6785e10bdc7f9ab17f524f4ffd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6c379a2bfc615dc72e17a638dc21b4cb.pdf c89b525604375f7cd7f4291ee0414c6d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans Hisotry Project William Sleaford (02:00:01) (00:05) Introduction • Born in Saint Clair Shores, Michigan. • Father was a member of Michigan National Guard during World War I. • Served in World War II. (01:35) High School • 17 years old when Pearl Harbor occurred. • Relocated from Saint Clair Shores to Muskegon, Michigan in 1940. • Worked in a supermarket during high school. • After graduation, worked for Continental Automotive. (07:50) Entering the Service • December 1, 1942 began service. • Began training at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan. • Applied for cadet review and failed due to an unbuttoned button on his military blouse. • Accepted to the new College Training Detachment program and attended college at the University of Tennessee after a year of service. (11:55) University of Tennessee 1943 • Lived in dorms at the university at first, and then lived in the stadium. • Took aerodynamics classes as well as flight training. • Flew out of a WWI airfield. • Had only one minor mishap during his flight training. (19:00) Gunnery School • Panama City, Florida. • Used skeet shooting as a shooting exercise. • Was an accomplished marksman in the service, shooting 23-25 out of the 25 shots allowed during an exercise. • Used tow planes flown by WASP’s for their shooting exercises. • Notes that training exercises were very predictable and did not prepare you well for combat. (23:08) After Gunnery School: • After gunnery school was sent to a manpower area in order to create crews in Lincoln, Nebraska. • Sent by train to Mountain Home, Idaho to the new airbase. • B-24’s were the main airplane used. • Hangars were made out of wood in order to save money and resources. • Airplanes were usually housed in revetments instead of hangars. • Began flying with crew in Idaho. • Airplane commander was a 1st lieutenant, which was very rare. • Fellow crewmen came from all over the United States. �2 guys on crew had been injured and left. One member of crew was Jewish and just wanted to perform his duty like every other American man. • Worked as a flight engineer on the plane although he never had formal training on a B-24. • Knew he wanted to be a pilot since he was a child. (32:40) Jobs • Worked on both electronics and aerial photography on the B-24. • Flew on a special flight over Europe to take photographs. • Trained in Idaho for about 6 months. (34:57) Trip Overseas • Assigned an airplane in Idaho. • Flew to Topeka, Kansas for medical procedures and military orders. • Then flew to an airbase in Springfield, Massachusetts. • Flew then to Bangor, Maine in preparations to go overseas, but plane had crashed. • Two men on crew were hurt in Maine and had to be replaced • After receiving the replacements, they were sent to Topeka, Kansas to receive new orders and went to Europe on a ship. • Left New York on the Marine Robin. • Some minor interactions with U-Boats on the trip. • Arrived with convoy in Liverpool, England. • Remembers the large amount of sunken ships off the Liverpool coast that were sticking out of the water. (41:25) England • After leaving ship, the men were placed on trains and left for Halesworth, England in August. • Halesworth was a very small town. • Bombing group helped open a town library in Halesworth. • Worked on a former Royal Air Force air base. • Flew 14 missions out of Halesworth. • 49th bombing group was one of the most efficient bomb groups. Brought back to the United States to change from B-24’s to B-29’s. (46:25) Missions • Did not realize what they were getting into before their first mission. • Flew over continental Europe enduring heavy fire. • Airplanes dropped chaff in order to confuse the enemy anti aircraft fire. • One mission included 1200 allied aircraft over Europe. • The missions were included in a flight book, however they were not allowed to open the mission until a precise time and place. • Fighter planes only accompanied the bombers for a very short time. • Own airplane did not endure a lot of damage while overseas. • Flew on both B-17 and B-24 aircraft during time in service. (54:58) Position on aircraft • Qualified to work as a flight engineer. • • �• Most work was taking aerial photographs. (56:30) Mission Locations: • Flew over Frankfurt, Germany. • Very heavily protected. • Never had to fly to Berlin. (58:29) Targets • Took photographs of German ball bearing plant to see the damage inflicted by allied bombings. • Bombed only specific targets, not just bombing cities and civilians. • Also photographed submarine holding pens. (01:00:35) Carpet Bagging Missions • Likened to the modern day CIA • Worked with other allied countries. • All members were sworn to secrecy and had no idea where they were traveling. • Special navigator knew the flight plan, no one on the crew did. • Thinks they landed around the Balkans, but to this day does not know for sure. • At certain points, special navigator would let crew know when to take photographs, while they had no idea where they were. • Believes they were flying over and photographing concentration camps. • Mission lasted in the air for 5.5-6 hours. • The aircraft was fired upon at one point. • Carried fuel in bomb bay tanks and wing tanks in order to have enough to make it to destination. • On one mission, there was trouble-gaining altitude; the crew determined the wrong type of fuel was in the tanks. • They bailed out after realizing they could not gain altitude, Sleaford still carried the film with him. • He pulverized the camera before bailing out so enemy troops would not learn what it was. • Freefell with parachutes in the middle of the night out of the plane and landed on what he thought was a frozen river, but was actually a concrete road. • Right after landing, his body was in shock and couldn’t move. He then heard a diesel engine and was spotted by a Portuguese truck driver. [Their mission most likely had been to a partisan-held airstrip on Yugoslavia, where the ground crew used the wrong fuel. The return route would have avoided enemy-held territory, and thus took them across central Italy and then over Spain, where they couldn’t get high enough to cross the Pyrenees. Spain was sympathetic to Germany, which is why Sleaford had to be smuggled out of the country.—ed.] • Portuguese driver placed Sleaford in the truck and took him back to Portugal. • All seven men from plane were reunited in Portugal. • Once arriving in Portugal, he stayed in a small hospital unit until a military ambulance transferred him to the United States consulate. (01:35:00) Returning stateside • He released the film to military personnel once he reached the consulate. • Met back with his bombing group shortly before being shipped home. �They traveled from Liverpool, England to Boston, Massachusetts. They were then sent to Bradley Field in Connecticut. December 17 was the day he returned home on furlough Michigan. He was then sent to Topeka, Kansas to leave the military. Remembers friends back home complaining about the lack of cigarettes, overseas, the men had received cigarettes for free. • Sent to Buckingham Army Air Base to train to fly B-29 aircraft in the Pacific. • They would fly from Arizona to Brazil for training missions. • After training, the men were sent to Fremont, Nebraska. • When the bombs were dropped on Japan, he was serving in Nebraska and remained stagnant. • He received orders to be shipped out to Peyote, Texas where aircraft were being shipped. • He was then sent home and discharged. (01:49:08) Returning Home • Worked at Consumers Energy for six months and then returned to Continental Motors. • He then began working for G.E. as an engineering technician in Cincinnati, Ohio. • G.E. paid for him to go to school to become a project engineer. • He later worked on snap seven, small nuclear reactor engine. • He believes that his time in the service gave him an appreciation for work. • The caste system between enlisted personnel and others is a major flaw of the military he feels. • • • • • � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SleafordW Title A name given to the resource Sleaford, William (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sleaford, William Description An account of the resource William Sleaford, of Saint Clair Shores, Michigan, served with the United States Army Air Corps during WW II. He attended college courses while in the military for flight training. He flew with a bombing group in Europe and participated in dangerous covert air photography missions over the European continent. He also participated in carpet bagging missions, on one such flight, the aircraft faulted and he parachuted to the ground. A Portuguese truck driver found Sleaford and took him back to Portugal picked him up. After his service, he became an engineer with General Electric. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-01-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1ecb43447ccad26c2688bc5abcec9aa.pdf 5e6029ce27ca74b748addf883a14c390 PDF Text Text -, ·---..: ~ I - . . ' 1/' ,'t·J'~- • . . . ... ~ I ' Lau·a hina Wi,t h ~ohn Con.ne1:1. See Weekend With Flair, Page 1B J 1 '1 '• ' ..... : I , I l - Mids .. '10,JM Obits ...•.. 1OC People .... l4D Sports ....... 5C State ••.•..... 5A Thea ........• 5B T.V•••••• 10, 11 B W.eather ...3A ";.,91S1' YEAR, NUMBER I _____ _ L - ..!. - ~ ·- ~ · ~lJt82 TH~ GRANb RAPIDS PRESS rFRIDA¥, ~)~-~ ~ER 8, 19~2 ~.. --- I I ~~ ~ - . ~hursday Lottery 539 Thur~day Dally-4 '5 516 'Wltly Superplay 1 27 022 Card Game 4 •, J • The: G· r a: n d Ranids Press· · * . •• _ .. Bridge ...... 9B Classified 11 C Comics .•.... 6B Editorials 12A Flair .......... 1B Horoscope 8B Landers ..... 8B Metro ....... 1C 52 ,PAGES "Ir 25 CENTS -c. • -~ . -· ... -- ----- �--------------------.. -.- -,-. ....._-,........ ....----,--.~ --. -. - -- -,--·-- -- -- - .,.... - -- -·- t - - - - - -· - - - - - - - - - - . ' The Grand Rapids Press Metro /Sports ,and Classified Ads Friday, October 8, 1982 Seven From Area To Be Honored For Resistance Work in WWII By Elizabeth Slowik Peter and Adriana Termaat sat at the dining room table in their Northeast Side home, o,·erloolcing a wooden deck, a clutch of pine trees and autumn Dowers in the back yard. There is little in the well-kept home that points back to the Termaats' five years in the World War II Dutch resistance movement, when they risked their lives to become part of the underground railway to London and to recapture the freedom they lost to the Nazis. Married Just a year and with a newborn son when the Netherlands was invaded, the Termaats belonged to a resistance group known as , Trouw, which means faithful or loyal. They helped to find hiding places for Jews, Allied pilots who had been shot down and Dutch men escaping the forced labor of the German war machines. They hid some of them in their own home. "If we speak of it now, it affects · us deeply," said Peter Termaat, 68, a retired auditor and credit manager. "It's amazing, after all these years, it's still only skin deep." The Termaats are two of 38 former Dutch resistance workers now living in the United States who will receive Resistance Remembrance Cross medals today from the Nationaal Comite Verzetscherdenkin~kruis of the Netherlands. Seven West Michigan residents, the largest group from any one area of the nation, will receive the awards. Presenting the medals at a 5 p.m. ceremony at the home of Dutch Ambassador Y.H. Lubbers in Washington D.C. will be Prince Bernhard, husband of former Queen Juliana and father of Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands. Some of the T·e rmaa\s' memorabilia of wartime. who said she once macfe underwear from a bedspread. Radios and newspapers were outlawed, travel was restricted and curfews imposed from 8 p.m. till 6 a.m. Telephone conversations were tapped by Nazis and their sympathizers. "It is so hard to imagine, I think, Also receiving the medals will be . for anyone living in this country," Berendina Roelofina Hendrika Er- added Weerstra, a 68-year-old relich andlohn Witte of Grand Rapids; tired real-estate broker. "Suppose John Dirkmaat of Comstock Park; you had a law in this country, that Albert Flikkema Sr. of Jenison; and you would have a minority group, John Weerstra of Holland. and any kind of help you extend to Termaat said he and his wife are this minority group would be punaccepting the award on behalf of ishable by death, without any pro many others. "There were so many cess, without any trial. How man people participating at our level, people would extend a helping hand even more at another level, cooper- in one way or another? Our freeating, hiding people. So many of us dom is worth the price." did not survive. The honors are givBerendina Erlich entered the en to the entire movement," he movement when she and her fiance said. tried to help a Jew with whom she The resistance operated in condi- worked in The Hague. tions that made it difficult just to "The Gestapo came right away to eat, the Termaats said. the home of my parents, in the midRation cards at one point limited dle of the night. They had very meals to 665 calories per day, so heavy material against me. I could housewives traveled to rural areas not be ·where I was living because to find food on farms. Clothes were they were hot on my trail," said the hard to find, according to Adriana, 62-year-old mother of two. Erlich went underground, using , false names, stolen identification cards, rarely staying in one place more than a few nights. She slept in her clothes, lest the Gestapo come after her at night. Her fiance and another leader of their group were executed. She was arrested while transporting false identification cards needed by downed pilots to slip out of the country - in an envelope slipped into her brassiere._ "I was terribly scared. If they found out who I was, it could have been the end of me," Erlich said. The Termaats' home was raided while they were hiding a 17-year-old Jewish boy. A Dutch woman spying for the Nazis betrayed them. Adriana Termaat sent the boy now a patent attorney in the Netherlands - into a hiding place and fabricated a story for her son, then three, so that be would not give away their secret. The Gestapo did not find the boy, but Peter Termaat went underground for his own safety. For all their dangerous efforts, the Dutch resistance could save Press Photos by HOYT E. CARRIER Ill Peter and Adriana Termaat of Grand Rapids, who are being honored for their work in the Dutch resistance movement in World War II. only 10 percent of the Netherlands' 150,000 Jews. · ' Last spring, the Termaats trav~ eled to Jordan, Israel, and Egypt. "It's still going on," Peter Termaat said. "Victory (in) Europe did not bring a final solution to peace. It's all temporary." � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_NWS_1982-10-08-GR-Press-Resistance-Remembrance-Cross Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Slowik, Elizabeth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-10-08 Title A name given to the resource Seven From Area to be Honored for Resistance Work in WWII Description An account of the resource Article about Termaats' and others honors with the Resistance Remembrance Cross. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource The Grand Rapids Press Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands -- Awards Dutch Americans Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0674d42312a2dff3d46d81e8ee2f920.mp4 09ed7827747381132799a252a7466120 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/19caba0c7c21bf79c1a03d6e0ac62359.pdf 05b30121bfccbc408ff6f87b45dcee68 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Transcript Earl Smestad Born: October 15, 1919 in Grand Rapids MI. WWII Veteran 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division Interviewed by: Jennifer Goven and Kelli Brockschmidt Transcribed by: Joan Raymer June 15, 2007 Interviewer: “Let’s start with your time in Grand Rapids before you joined the reserve.” “What were you doing during high school?” “What were you doing with your friends? What kind of school work were you doing?” The first school I went to was a Michigan school up on Michigan Street and they were going to tear that down and Reverend DeHaan took that church over and then we had to go to Coit School when I was about 10 or 11 years old and that’s about my grade school education. Then we went to Central when I was 12 and I graduated from there in 1939. Interviewer: “Did you have plans for after high school that you had thought of? Was there some kind of work that you wanted to do?” I always thought when I was in high school, I was in the R.O.T.C. about 3 years and that’s because we got free uniforms 3 days a week and then I got in the National Guards in 1938. Interviewer: “So, before you finished high school you went into the National Guard?” 2:27 I was in the National Guard before I got out of high school. Interviewer: “Where a lot of your friends in the guard? Is that why you went in?” They were all in; the whole neighborhood joined various companies. We had about 15 kids around there, they all signed up. Interviewer: “Why did you guys sign up? Just to hang out together or what?” We hung out and went around together, yea. We would sit up on the corner and watch the girls go by. We’d stop up there where all the girls worked in the Booth Dairy and chatted. We swam, we would go swimming at the park and play games, sports, football and baseball and challenge various teams from the “Gas House Gang” down there and then the Polish boys and the farmer boys. We would have a yearly football game with those 3 groups of boys. 3:29 Interviewer: “Did a lot of those boys also join the reserve?” Yea, there were some of them, but mostly it was boys from the neighborhood of College and Hastings Street and Union Avenue North of us there. Interviewer: “Did you spend a lot of time at the Armory?” 1 �We spent time down there when we could play pool and ping-pong and cards and they had a small swimming pool there. We would go swimming and we had to fight John English the manager. Interviewer: “You said you joined in 1938, what was the process like to sign up for the guards?” Just go up there and put your name down and sign up for 3 years at that time. 4:22 Interviewer: “Did you know what was going on over in Europe at this time?” That was one of the reasons I joined up, so I could get in with-- if we did have to go I would be in with a bunch of boys that I knew and was close to, that is one of the reasons I joined. Interviewer: “Who was one of your close friends at this time?” “My closest friend?” Oh, Ray Evans and Bill Caulkins, my brother and Louis Cane and Jim Verstay. Interviewer: “Now did your brother sign up with the guards the same time you did?” 5:07 He signed up about a month before I did with his buddy the Sherwood boy. Yea, we had hung around together all these years, we had parties all the time. They eventually all got married and we’d have reunions with the “Red Arrow” Club and the Grand Rapids Club meetings, every third Friday after a while. Interviewer: “So when did you find out you were being mobilized?” I think it was around August they were talking about mobilizing the guards. So I quit my job and I went with Bill Sherwood and Fred Ron, we took a trip out east for about 8 or 9 days and came back and we basically went south in October. Interviewer: “What did you do on your trip out east?” “What did I do on that trip?” “Oh my gosh”, we went visiting, we took pictures, we went to the Philadelphia mint and watched them mint coins there, we went to various parks and theaters with some friends of Fred. 6:33 Their daughter called up a couple of girl friends and we went out with them a couple of nights to the theater and Coke Cola stands. Interviewer: “So where did you end up going down south and how did you get there?” Well, first of all there were 15 people from the supply section, 15 enlisted men and 1 officer. They loaded us on a truck and I think that was about the 17th of October 17th or 18th maybe, and so we went to Kalamazoo and we got on the train at Kalamazoo. Our group, we went on the train down south, we stopped one time to relax our legs and get some refreshments and continued on to Louisiana and Camp Beauregard. Interviewer: “Did the train lead you to New Orleans? Is that where you got off the train? Did the train end in New Orleans that you took?” Yea, we went straight down on the same train, we didn’t have to get off except to relax and get some refreshments. 2 �Interviewer: “What unit were you assigned to?” 7:56 I was in the Service Company, 126th Infantry, 32nd Division. Interviewer: “So what were you feeling when you were traveling down there? Were you guys excited, or nervous? Oh Yea, we were talking and playing cards, whatever you do when your on a train, look at the scenery and like I said, we got off in Memphis for refreshments and went right on. It’s been a long time ago and it’s pretty hard to remember everything that happened on that train. 8:29 Interviewer: “What was your reaction to Louisiana when you got there?” Hot, it was October and it took us 2 or 3 days to get down there and it was hot and clay and we had to put up the tents, pound some stakes in and you couldn’t do it. You would pound a stake in and break it, get another stake and finally we had enough broken stakes around there to build a big bonfire, but then we got the tents up and we had to count and take an inventory of what was there. Tents, cots, mattresses and stuff like that. They had equipment there that had to be inventoried; it was lying around there in the kitchens. Every kitchen had about 3 battalions and 4 auxiliary companies down there and we had to check the property and vests, we was drawing supplies for them all the time and putting them up in their tents and stuff like that. 9:40 We were pretty busy. Interviewer: “Were you able to keep company with the boys you joined with from Grand Rapids?” Yea, in that group, yes. They were all mostly from Grand Rapids except--- the third battalion was 99% Grand Rapids, but then they had these other units from Muskegon, Big Rapids, Holland, Grand Haven, and the town south of here, not Battle Creek, but Adrian, they had a company and Holland had a company. The Massenma Company, they were from Grand Rapids and these other units like over from the 2nd and 3rd battalion. Interviewer: “Did you guys get a lot of training while you were in Louisiana or did you move on from there and have some more training in other places?” We were there and the troops came down around 10 days after, but they drove the trucks down. They came down by truck and we had training down there. They would go out in the field and train and what not. 11:17 We would just work around the warehouse and draw supplies whenever they needed them and requisition for the whole regiment. Interviewer: “What was the job you liked the most while you were down there?” “What was the job I liked the most?” Taking the weekend leave once in a while. Interviewer: “What was the worst job you had to do while you were down there?” K.P., washing dishes and peeling potatoes, that was the worst job. Interviewer: “What was your daily routine like? When did you wake up? What did you do throughout the day?” Gosh, we woke up real early in the morning I know that. They would have reveille and we would all get out there and salute the colors when they put the colors up and we had 3 �to do the same thing at night. 12:17 Some of us had to be out there in dress uniforms. We were a group of mechanics and supply people and what not and we would stand, as we were dressed. That was real a real touching moment of the day was when they would blow retreat at night and the cannon would go off everything stopped, all the trucks would stop and the driver always had to get out to salute. It was strict way back then, but I don’t think they do that much anymore; there is not as much discipline. There was a lot of discipline then, in fact if a Corporal told you to do something, boy you jumped up when he said “right now”. 13:19 They put the fear of God into you at that time. Interviewer: “What were your Sergeants like?” They were all ok, you liked some more than the other guy, but they were all pretty good, they just wanted—if you obeyed them they weren’t too bad, but if you didn’t, you got an extra job to do. So, you said “ok” and did what they told you to do, but if we had some time off we would kind of slip away once in a while. They had these bales of hay they used to stuff a mattress with, that’s what our mattress was like it had straw in there. If you put too much straw in there it was a big bundle, you had to put in just enough to lay on. I remember one time we was around there and we, about 3 or 4 of us, we fixed a little cave in that straw pile and low and behold they hollered for guys to report for a job, well, nobody is around and then all of a sudden a bale comes off the cover and we are looking up into the Sergeant’s eyes and he says, “Next time you find you r own hiding places, this is the place we always used to hang out” so, we had to search around for a different place to duck around. 14:57 Interviewer: “Do you remember that Sergeant’s name?” I remember a lot, Al Sawicki and there were guys, gosh, they were old timers. If fact Al Sawicki was a boxing champion in Grand Rapids around 1935. He was a tough little bugger. He’s the guy who gave me the nickname of Sam. We were down-- after we moved over from Beauregard we moved to Camp Livingston and at Camp Beauregard we had these Sibley stoves and once you put a fire in there these sparks would come up and every now and then you would look up there and say, “the suns coming through the tent”. We had a spark come on that spot and the spot got bigger and bigger, it was on fire. A lot of tents burned down over there. 16:02 When we went to Camp Livingston they had a stove in a tent and they didn’t have to worry about the sparks there. Al Sawicki was trying to wake us up one morning after we came back from a weekend pass and hollering at all of us to get up and everybody started getting up and I just laid there when he tried to call my name because he couldn’t pronounce it, he could pronounce Masalouski and Kozalowski and Willkowski, but he couldn’t pronounce Smestad so he just cut it down to Sam later on. He said, “get up” and he was still laying in bed and I said, “you’re not up yet” and he said, “if I get up, I’ll throw you out of your bunk” and he would, too. He was a little guy, but tougher than the dickens and so he got up and I got up and he came over towards me and I just kind of put my hand out like that and just caught him off balance on the chest and he backed up to his bunk and come at me, he was going to kill me. He said, “boy, if you don’t get up right now”---I knew he would so I got up about that quick, but he was a real good guy. 17:29 He didn’t talk to me for about a week or a while and “Big John” was his buddy. “Big John” and Al were pals from way back from the west side. I told John “do you know Al, he never says anything, he never 4 �hollers at me to get up or anything”, so I was on KP that day and I had to serve the Sergeants table and I brought a plate over there and John said, “is Al talking to ya”? He blows out a great big smile and from then on we were the same as we were before. Interviewer: “What kind of training was going on at Camp Livingston?” The troops would go out there with their machine guns and their rifles. They would go practice firing and maneuver around, like I said, I was a supply man so we stayed up in the warehouse and issued supplies when the supply Sergeant would come up with his arm artificer and whenever they needed some--- there was a ration section and another section and I was in the clothing and equipment and we would help each other out a lot. 18:53 We would have to go to the quartermaster and draw supplies and put them in a tent and call the companies up and tell them that their shoes are in or their socks are in, or their shirts are in, or whatever they wanted to have of their stuff. 19:10 Interviewer: “So where was your next stop after Camp Livingston?” Our next stop? Well, we had maneuvers down there all throughout the south and we had to go out in the field there, I guess, for probably a month. The Red Army fought the Blue Army. President Eisenhower, at that time he was a Major or Lt. Colonel, the opposition side there found out later on and then our supply guys, we just had to bring supplies through the lines at night, the companies’ rations and stuff like that. Then we went up to Fort Devens in Massachusetts. We went up there by train; our outfit went by train, a lot of the drivers drove up there, so we settled up in there. 20:18 Interviewer: “Prior to that, Pearl Harbor was attacked. Where were you on December 7?” “Where was I on December 7th?” I will tell you exactly, we was at a little tavern coming home from a small town and we said, “let’s stop and have one more drink”. I forget the name of the place, so we pulled in there and we looked up there and it looked like there was a riot going on. Everybody was pouring out of that place. We walked in and said, ”what’s the matter?” The M.P. said, “everybody’s got to go back, they just bombed Pearl Harbor”. Oh Man, so we had to go back to the camp as quick as we could get and we had to go down to the ammunition dump and draw tons and tons of ammunition to distribute to the troops. Then the troops were sent to Louisiana, bridges around Louisiana, Mississippi bridges and what not, important places. 21:21 These other companies were doing that and right after that we went up to get ready to go to Europe. We got up there and all of a sudden they changes their tactics and they took our engineers away from us and they were sent to ship out and they wound up in England, Ireland or England, I don’t know where they wound up at, so we didn’t have any engineer unit, so they drafted the engineer unit from Massachusetts to join our outfit, so we had some engineers with us. 22:02 Interviewer: “So, this was at Fort Devens?” Yea. Interviewer: “Now when Pearl Harbor was attacked, did you know where Pearl Harbor was?” 5 �Well we found out. We knew it was in the Hawaiian Islands. A lot of us knew where it was from our maps and history, but we didn’t know how serious it was. Then Sunday we heard the president speak. That famous speech he had there and I don’t know word for word what he said, but he said there was a war going on and that’s all. He declared war and then the Senate and House of Representatives had to vote on it at that time. Now days the president says, “well let’s conquer that county, we need the oil.” I could say a lot of nasty things about that, but whatever, it might cost me a quarter. Interviewer: “Where did you go from Fort Devens?” Well, then we went to—we had a furlough; they cancelled furloughs when we were down south. They cancelled furloughs and I was ready to go to the Mardi Gras with another boy and they cancelled furloughs and I said, ”oh gosh”. So, we got up there and then they let us, the groups that didn’t get furloughs, they gave them 5 days. 23:33 the group I went out with, 5 of us were from Grand Rapids. We got on the train and took off on the train and we called up some old friends, a friend that I knew when she was a little girl and I came home one night and said, “who’s talking to Helen, my sister? Go find out.” So, these girls talking to Helen were grown up girls and that was the same girl that lived next door to us way back when. So, we dated and 2 of us went together with friends around town here and what not. We were supposed to be back on a Saturday or Sunday night I think it was. I told Ted Urbanski, he was another boy with us, and I said, “I’m not going home on a Saturday, let’s go back Sunday”. Ok, so we called up another guy and he said,”ok”, so the 3 of us, we stayed Saturday and Sunday and we got back in time for reveille Monday morning. Then we all got called into the office and they said, “you guys are all busted and reduced in rank”. Ted and I were only a PFC, but Howard was a Corporal, so we all wound up as Privates. How convenient. 25:04 When I told them, “we got back for reveille”, our company commander, he got upset about that and said, ”well, the order was to be here Sunday morning”. Well, I said, “we couldn’t leave Saturday night without having a little fun”. Well, that didn’t set too good. The saddest part of it was, when we were going from Louisiana right up to Boston, he had sent his wife up there before hand and we weren’t supposed to tell anybody where we was going to go, but we got up there ands several of the officers had wives up there, but we couldn’t tell anybody else where we were going. 25:57 So, you know how much a secret amounts to. So, then for punishment we had to, Ted and I, we had to be on KP, so our supply officer said, “they’re not going to be on KP, go get em and type up some information”, I was a clerk there at the time. So, I got pulled out of KP, which I thought was wonderful, just super. 26:31 So, we got on the train and they used us as runners. I forget how many trains we had on, we had Pullman cars and we had 3 guys to a berth, 2 guys on the lower berth and 1 on top. They would get a message from there, where we were going to stop, rest stop, at the next little town. We would have to go back to the companies and tell the First Sergeant we were going to stop for x hours and for so many minutes. Well, every time you did that, everybody’s running up there to the taverns and running back with a bottle of pop or whatever they had, in paper bags and the train would pull out an you could see them running to try to catch the train. 27:29 Some of the guys never did come back. I think there was one boy in our company that I never saw after that, but we would have to go back and come back and would take turns about that. It was interesting, we would stop by and talk to the First Sergeant and take our time going 6 �back. We didn’t care if we got back to headquarters spot because there was always 1 guy up there anyway. You talk to the supply Sergeants and the mess Sergeants in there and they might have a little bottle of pop there and offer us, whatever. 28:10 Then we finally landed in California, got out, we weren’t allowed to go to town for a little while there, but we did manage to get out a couple of times. We went to a place they called the “Dog Track” and it was just a little track, an old dog track and I think we was there a day or 2 and they put us up into the coliseum where they had their Rodeos and all that and we slept in-between the benches there, our outfit did anyway. 28:46 Interviewer: “Is that what they call the Cow Palace?” Yes. Interviewer: “How long did you stay at the Cow Palace?’ Gosh, I don’t really remember. I don’t remember how many days, when we got there and it seems like we were there probably a week. 29:10 Interviewer: “Now, was that just temporary lodging because they had no where else to put you?” No, from there we went on aboard ship. Interviewer: “What ship?’ The U.S.S. Lorreline. Interviewer: “Where did you leave from?” We left from San Francisco. Interviewer: “Do you know when?” Yea, let’s see, in April---we left the 22nd of April and we landed the 15th of May, I think it was. Interviewer: “That was in 1941?” [1942] 1941, yes 1941, we had about 5,000 troops on that ship and 127 and 128, they were on 2 other ships about the same size, but the Lorreline, I think, was the largest ship. Interviewer: “Did you know where you were going?” We thought we was going to---we figured we were going to Australia, just talk you know and whatnot. 30:08 Interviewer: “Where did you stay on the ship?” We boarded—we had an advance group going on the ship to assign units different compartments in different parts of the ship. Our group was on the aft or the tail end and that is what used to be called the hospital bay. That was a 2-bunk affair, but part of us was in there and the other part was just inside. That was like 6 bunks there with about this much space between them, 5 or 6 bunks high. We were in what-- they were just 2 beds high in what used to be the hospital. The ship was on-- the tail end was right outside. We went under the Golden Gate Bridge and it was rough. 31:18 7 �Interviewer: “Did you get sea sick?” 4,000 troops got sea sick, at least 4,000. Interviewer: “How did you treat it?” We just didn’t treat it. “What could you treat it with? Nothing” Interviewer: “Now this was a luxury ship previous to this, so it was still pretty nice inside?” Well, some of them had rooms. Mostly the high ranking noncommissioned officers had rooms down there, cabins and there was a lot of them that didn’t have cabins. For 5,000 troops, you know, they had to spread them out. Interviewer: “Was the food good?” I guess if you could eat it. It was palatable, you could chew it down. Interviewer: “Now did you cross the equator?” Yes, we crossed. Interviewer: “Did you participate in the King Neptune ceremony?” That is the International Date Line, that’s not the equator, that’s a different line. We crossed that and I don’t know if we if it was the same day tomorrow as it was today or something like that, I forget how it’s changed. Then they initiated a few of the troops and out of our company they took 5 guys and you can’t guess who one of the guys was? Interviewer: “Was it you?” Yes, it was me and I remember there was Al Sawicki, Jimmy Wells, he was a golf pro in Grand Rapids for a good number of years, myself and I forget the other guys name, I think his name was Ray Dodds and it seems like there was another one, but I don’t remember. Anyway, your go and your in your “skivvies”, just your shorts on and you go down what they call a ladder, 2 ladders on each side going down the back of the ship and you get down to the bottom and there’s---on my side they had a guy with a pair of shears and they look about that long and I just had a haircut, I just had a brush cut, and the guy he would pull up a bunch of my hair like that and clip, clip, all over my head there. 33:48 I thought he was going to cut an ear off. Al Sawicki, on that side they had an electric shears and they just zipped up his head there and Jimmy Wells had that. So then you crawl along and there are some guys swatting you and spraying the hose at ya and I didn’t weigh too much and there were 2 guys there that just lifted me up and just chunked me in that barrel of water. 34:17 Those big blobs of water would just chunk you down and the next thing was say “pollywog” or “shell back’ and I was watching what was going on there and if you said “pollywog” down you went again, but if you said “shell back” they let you go. So, I was kind of wise to that, but I had to wait for the guy ahead of me to get dunked, so they plunged me in there and I said,” shell back, shell back, shell back” and they let me go, but Al Sawicki he didn’t know what he was, he was spitting water and down again he would go, I think they dunked him about 3 times before I said, “shell back Al, shell back” and he finally got wise and they let him go. Then they had 8 �guys there with sticks and when they were tired of doing that they would slap you one little lick that is about all, but then they had the queen up there in this court, sitting way up above there and they ‘re all dressed up and he’s got a rod there that shows he’s the boss and their all dressed up, their dressed up something beautiful. 35:43 Then he would say, “ok, let him go” or something like that. They let us go back and change and get some dry shorts on. Interviewer: “How long did that take?” It took all-day and part of the night. These sailors were running around there trying to get guys that dodged them. They would go around and say,” who missed it?” and you could hear them running around. Some of the sailors on board, some of them had never been over before either, so they were getting it too. 36:20 They only got a few guys from each unit you know instead of the whole gang, but I’m telling you, it was interesting. Some of the guys took pictures and I got pictures of the court and stuff like that. It was kind of fun. Interviewer: “How long did it take you to get to Australia?” I think we were on that ship 22 days all together. Interviewer: “Where did you land?” We landed in Adelaide, way in the southern part, but that was about the time the Coral Sea battle was going on and while we was on board ship there we got a note from Tokyo Rose and she said, “Well,” she said, “It’s too bad that the 36th Division was just sunk” and we said, “man o man they must have sunken one of the other ships maybe or something like that”, but they didn’t, they was just telling us how dangerous it was, but I often thought, I always thought I saw lightning all the time and come to think of it, it might have been the ships firing at each other there, but it was so far away—they weren’t even close to us there. 37:45 We landed in Adelaide at the dock there and people they got big signs down there “a loose lip causes damage” or something like that, “ bad talk or loose lips”, just don’t report stuff—that’s all you could hear for a while over there. Of course they were being attacked by Japan and they thought Japan was going to come through the mountains over there in New Guinea and attack them. 38:20 Interviewer: “How long were you in Australia before you headed to New Guinea?” Oh gosh, we was in Australia for a while and went through more stuff and we was in Adelaide and then we went up to Brisbane and got part way up to I think Armidale and we had to get off because the rails gauge changed, in every state there were different rails for the train so we had to load our baggage and our trucks and whatever supplies and stuff and then we drove the rest of the way, I don’t know how far that was. We bypassed Sydney and got into Brisbane and we set up tents in the woods there. There were no rows, there was a tent here and a tent there and whatnot, but they had a warehouse there and stuff. Interviewer: “Did you get much jungle training there? Were the troops getting trained there?” 9 �No, it was just in the woods there of that camp, Camp Cable, they named that Camp Cable after a boy from our company. He was on board ship and they were shipping some supplies from Brisbane by water and that ship got sunk and he was killed so they named the camp after him, he was from Kalamazoo. 39:59 Gerald Cable his name was, he was a mechanic. We was there for quite a while then we went on up, if I had that little “Red Arrow” book it would tell us when we left there in 1942, 41, 42. We left there and went to New Guinea and then Port Moresby. Interviewer: “In Brisbane, did you have any interaction with the Australians?” Yes, they’d go to town almost every night. There were drivers that were going to town and in Adelaide we went to town a bunch of times. We went bowling a couple of times down there and nobody knew how to score, but we just knew how to throw the ball there and how many pins we knocked down, we put them in a count, heck we were bowling 290 down there. When someone told us how to keep the score, they kept score for us and we was bowling about 90 or 100 and stuff like that. Then we wound it up and the rest of the time we just stopped, they would have an advance party to find a park for us to pull the trucks in and we had just a company of guys and we pulled in up there and in the morning, one morning, we got up and gosh, there was all snow up there, it was cold and it was all frost and everybody was frosty. It was in their wintertime by the way, it was their wintertime or getting in the fall. 42:01 We finally got up to Brisbane and went to town once in a while. They would go out and train and we would just go and pick up some more supplies and stuff. Finally we wound up in Port Moresby there. I think the name of the ship that took us up there was the “Holland”, the “S.S. Holland”, it was like a liberty ship and I think it was the “Holland”, I’m not sure, but somebody thought that was it. 42:42 Interviewer: “Did you guys know what you were getting into when you headed to New Guinea?” Well, we knew there was going to be some---that somebody was going to die up there, at least we should have known that. If there’s a war going on somebody’s going to get killed. 42:57 Interviewer: “Were you guys nervous about landing there?” No, I don’t think so, no. They didn’t get nervous until they went up to the front and I was fortunate that I never did get up there in that deal, but the Japs---we was living on the edge of an airport there and we had pup tents set up there and they had tents for the officers and the kitchen and then we would---the Japs would bomb, flying Charlie would come over every night and it sounded like a washing machine and “washing machine Charlie” came flying around there, flying around there and he would come every night, every night he would come and up on the hill they would fire at him and fire at him. 43:51 Interviewer: “Was this still in Port Moresby?” Yes, then, we was at the edge of the airport and they dropped---one night they dropped some bombs and 5 boys from H company out of Ionia, they just came down to pick up some machine gun parts or parts for their guns and machine guns and what not and a 10 �bomb hit the tree and the shrapnel came down and eventually 3 of those boys were killed, they died from that. 44:37 I had a small piece of shrapnel that didn’t amount to a pea size. Another fellow who was in our outfit, Fletcher, he was laying on his back and he had his knee raised up and it took his knee off and he lost his leg there and he disappeared from our view after that, but he got ok, he was selling war bonds in Grand Rapids here, he had a new leg and he stopped up and called our folks up there, their number and stuff. Up front there it was tough, you couldn’t see from here to you. My brother was laying up there and he heard some---if you hear some noise going out there and you didn’t know the password you took a shot at that direction and he had his rifle aimed out that way and the guy popped up and looked right at that muzzle of his rifle and finally he yelled the password and Carl, he should have fired right off the bat because he challenged him and never got a word back, but he never fired back and this guy was a friend of ours from Grand Rapids here and he came that close to getting killed. 46:10 Later on this boy, he got hit in the leg. He was all right, but he always had to wear a large shoe about that was much higher on that leg that got shot by a sniper. Interviewer: “What was the password, do you remember?” I don’t remember that, but they always used an “R” word because the Japanese, they couldn’t pronounce that word. “R” like Robin or Ruth was a password at one time or Robin and I don’t remember what some of the others might be. 46:46 Interviewer: “Now when you were hit with shrapnel, was this the first time that you had seen casualties?” Yea, because the other troops hadn’t gotten up there yet, but I went up to the hospital there and it looked like my whole side was ripped open because it burned and I just rubbed it and I bled all the way up that way. 47:14 “By gosh”, he said, “Fletcher got hit” and I went over there and he said, “were you hit too?” and he got all excited and jumped up and he was crazy. It was ok, I went to the medics and saw these other guys lying on the table being operated on and it was pretty bad. This one boy, I think he was from Wayland, his name was Ambrose, Ambrose was his name, this one boy, and the other boys name was Lester B. Sitts, S I T T S. I remember Sitts because he was in the armor for each company and he was a little short guy, he was, when we were in other camps he would come down there and try to promote little extras off us and I said, “now get outa here, you got all you got comin, now get going”. He would fight for more, they would always fight for more and we’d go down to the Quartermaster and we always had so many pieces to bring back, clothing or shoes, we’d want 5 more. 48:36 Interviewer: “Now were you in charge of handing out supplies? Is that what you were doing?” Yea, we had to keep a record of what we gave out. Interviewer: “Were you told how much you could give out to each company?” Yea, we know how much the TOD was, they had so many people, they got so many pairs of shoes or so many of this and so many of that. We knew how much they were allowed and they come back because they got so many men and they get one per man and they would say they had extra guys coming in all the time and I would say,”aw, get outa here”. 11 �Interviewer: “Where did your orders come from?” They would send in what they wanted and what they needed and we would check it out and go down and draw it, if we knew they were over we just---he said,” we ordered 50”, well you got 47 people there so you only get 47. 49:32 Everybody was trying, you know they---it’s a thing where you want to help your troops, but we were pretty good at that too down at the division there. Interviewer: “What were your orders from the time you were injured, after that where did you go from there?” We were there for a while, we was always there until we came back from up front there. Interviewer: “Was this at the time the battle of Buna was going on?” Yes, I never got up at that battle, but we got up to the rest of them with our supplies. 50:18 Interviewer: “At this time did you have any idea what was going on, on the home front? What was happening with your parents? Were you able to keep in contact?” Oh ya, guys would come back and we would hear about it. We would go down to the airport, we had to load supplies up at the airport, load the planes up and then while the troops was marching, the 2nd Battalion had to march over the mountain and I got a letter of this Al Sawicki, I got his diary of what happened on that night. Somebody should see it, but I couldn’t publish it myself because it isn’t---But then the only part about it is, he would just say, “a guy this,” he never put any names of the people in that writing that he had and it was in his own handwriting. He did that probably when he came back, I mean when he came back from there. He was a good old boy. Interviewer: “Did you have much help from the natives while you were there in New Guinea?” Yes, they called them “angels of mercy” up there at the front because they would take these prisoners, I mean wounded people and carry them back to the aid stations to get patched up and whatnot. They were really great, yea. 51:54 They always talk about that, every boy that was up there talked about them, but when the champagne came on it was just by luck that they---the Japs to begin with, the Japs were cut off to begin with, they had the blockade down and they couldn’t get any reinforcements at all and they were just blocked in there, why they had to continue the battle is---it’s in the papers that came out after the war. Why was it necessary to go up there, they had them blockaded off? They couldn’t go anyplace, they couldn’t get off the island, but that’s the way the army runs. 52:49 Interviewer: “did you have any direct contact with the Japanese while you were at Port Moresby?” No, no. Interviewer: “the natives, did they help deliver any of the supplies that you were giving out?” 12 �Oh yea, they were great; down there we didn’t need them because we had enough people there to load and unload the planes. Interviewer: “How were you able to talk with them?” We didn’t have much between us; we didn’t have much at all. We could use some words; I can’t remember just what words we used, what money was and what food was and some words like that. If all you knew was money and food, what else do you have to know? Interviewer: “During this time, where were you sleeping? How were you taking showers? What were you eating? We had a big 50-gallon drum up there and we run water. We were able to go out and swim, but it was kind of dangerous because of the rocks out there and the coral out there and it wasn’t---there were fish out there, sting fish or whatever and stuff like that, but swimming wasn’t the best thing to do, just go out there and wash and clean-up a little bit better than with the 50 gallon drum there coming down on ya. I got some pictures that you might have seen, I don’t know. 54:41 Interviewer: “Where did you go after Port Moresby?” Where did we go? We didn’t go anywhere. There was nothing there except some buildings, but now it’s a modern town. Interviewer: “After you left there, what were your next orders?” We went back to Australia; we had more training down there. We went back to Brisbane and then we had some leave time and we went to different towns around there. We traveled and on up there we met acquaintances and we went back down there again and I went to South Grafton, 4 of us went down there and we slept in a hotel out on a porch. They closed the end of the porch off and put 2 beds in there, well, they had a bed inside and out on the porch they put 2 beds out on the porch there and another boy and I slept out there and 2 other fellas slept in the bed there. I come in one night and the door was locked. I shook the door and said, “hey, it’s Sam”, Combs was there and I called him “Duck” and he said, “who’s there?” and I said, “me, let me in”, I’m shaking the door knob and all of a sudden I look up and the door knob from the inside fell on the floor so I just pushed the door open. 56:19 Well, he had a friend in bed with him, that’s why he didn’t want me to come in. Interviewer: “Did you meet people there? Did you have any relationships? Were there friends from home? Did you have a girl friend there? Did you meet any girls in Australia?” Oh, we met a girl the first night we was there. They had some kind of a carnival in town, South Grafton was a small town like Rockford maybe and it was a pretty town. We went to a bar and they were rationed with their drinking so we were drinking, I forget what we were drinking, having some highballs or something and this young couple there was running the bar, a man and his wife, they said, “we ran out ” of what we was drinking, “well”, they said, “we got a bottle of rum here” and I heard of rum and coke ya know and so we said, “we’ll buy it”, so we bought the bottle of rum and out of the corner of my eye 13 �I looked in there and there was a lady sitting around the corner there, so we went outside and opened the bottle up and this one boy took a drink out of it and said, “oh, wow!” and I took a drink out of it and it felt like it was a “boiler maker” going down and when it hit the bottom, it seemed like it exploded. Wham! 58:17 We had that bottle in our—I saw this other girl there and I started talking to her and we visited a little bit you know and found out where she lived, right up there not too far away. We walked her home and the other guys disappeared so, I met her that night and a couple more nights and I said, “I think I will stay here for a while”. While we were there, there was a boy who was AWOL and he had been there for a month already and I said, “I’ll do the same thing”. 58:58 Interviewers: “Thank you Mr. Smested and Happy Veterans Day.” 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmestadE Title A name given to the resource Smestad, Erling Martin (Interview transcript and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smestad, Erling Martin Description An account of the resource Erling Smestad enlisted in the Michigan National Guard in 1938 and served in the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division until June of 1945. His unit trained in Louisiana and was shipped first to the East Coast and then back across the country and across the Pacific to Australia and New Guinea, where it fought in a series of battles before going on to the Philippines. Smestad's account covers all of this, and includes good descriptions of different aspects of training and of trying to fight a war in a jungle without adequate supplies. His interview is featured in the documentary Nightmare in New Guinea produced by Grand Valley State University. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goven, Jennifer (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-11-0 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04d88fce362fa355c99f6f13ab79ad2e.mp4 aa299b3d31d0c37392ef62cde16f846d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f547cc63ad1a6d6a9553459024e8452.pdf b65b65b5767a1f97c382d4749bf1d6e7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 1:11: 25 Arthur Louis Smith WWII Veteran; Korean War Veteran United States Army; National Guard; 1942 to 1956 (when left the Reserve) (0:00) Early years • Born in Sioux St. Marie, Ontario, Canada in 1915 o Lived by huge mountains where would go and cut Christmas trees each year • Dad worked in a factory in Canada but then moved family to Detroit when got a job with his Uncle O.W. Smith, who ran a gravel pit in Oxford, MI o This gravel pit moved out 300 railcars full of gravel everyday o Arthur worked during the summers here and rode the barge o The gravel came down from the melting glaciers in Canada (4:18) WWI stories (Canada) • When Smith was a boy, would cut across his neighbors lawns to get to school. • One day Smith was walking across a yard and came across 2 medals on a chain (Dog tags). Smith returned it to the owner. The owner was so happy because it was one of the few pieces of memorabilia he had from serving in WWI • When WWI ended, Smith remembers that the Kaiser of Germany was killed [ed. note: actually just exiled—died in 1940]. In Sioux St. Marie burned an effigy of the Kaiser (6:56) Extracurricular school activities (high school; MI) • Marching band o Won the United States Championship in Tulsa, OK o John Phillip Sousa ran the competition in OK o Smith shook hands with Sousa o 1600 bands in Tulsa for the competition o This was Sousa’s last concert o Smith played cellophane and later the French horn o Required to practice 12 hours/week o Taught band at Interlochen during the summers • Football o Smith was the QB on the team • Track o Did the pole vault o Vaulted about 12 feet ƒ Had to be careful because used bamboo poles which could spit while vaulting and hurt the vaulter • Graduated high school in 1935 (13:50) College • Attended Alma College where he became the head janitor �• Played almost every sport very well • Graduated college in 1938 (15:10) Current events of 1939 • Current events didn’t really affect him; wasn’t involved in politics • Smith was in boy scouts (23:15) After college • Assistant coach for football at Constantine High School near Kalamazoo, MI • Won league a few times • Smith’s only rule was no drinking or smoking when playing on the team • The superintendent’s son (a center for the football team) was caught smoking and drinking and so Smith would not let him play on the team. Smith was going to get fired but the president of the school board stood up for him and Smith was allowed to stay o The guy who was kicked off the team became the team’s manager (28:13) Pearl Harbor • Was hitchhiking from Kalamazoo to Constantine (29:50) Wife • Soon to be wife, Kara, was Alma’s first homecoming queen • Smith dated her (she a freshman, he newly graduated) • When Smith got a job away from Alma, Kara transferred to Albion College to be closer to Smith • Smith and Kara went together for 4 years o Her dad said that she could not marry until she finished college • Married the first Saturday after Kara’s graduation in June 1942. • Called for duty 1 month later (32:20) Service • Went into the service late Spring-early Summer in 1942 • Went to Detroit then to Fort Custer, Battle Creek for basic training • Sent to Wyoming for advanced training in the mountains for the infantry division o wife followed him here and got an office job • became a Corporal • played basketball for the Army • went to officer training school in VA o became a “90 Day Wonder” o Kara followed him to VA • Sent to Boise, Idaho o First child was born here • Then sent to CA where shipped out to Australia (39:11) Australia • Stopped briefly in Hawaii and saw the massive destruction of Pearl Harbor • Big celebration aboard the ship when they passed the equator on way to Australia • In Australia, became a quartermaster (41:50) The Pacific Theatre • In charge of chaperoning the equipment • Stayed in the Philippines for a long time �o Was there when the atomic bomb was dropped on Japan • Smith was on the ship where MacArthur signed the peace treaty with Japan (45:30) After the signing of the peace treaty • On an island next to Japan that was about 100 miles long – [Okinawa?] • After Japan surrender, Smith was a part of the division that occupied Japan o Remained in charge of cars, trucks, etc. o Became a Captain (48:05) Communication • Was all done through letters • He and wife wrote each other (48:50) Dogs • Got a dog while over in Japan. This dog became like family to the unit • Smith was not allowed to bring the dog back home. Because the Japanese would eat the dog, Smith dug a hole and shot the dog. Smith didn’t want the dog to get eaten. One of the hardest things he had to do. (51:44) Home • Got on a ship that went to Seattle, from which he went back to Boise, Idaho • Discharged and joined the National Guard • Got a full time job coaching football at Boise High School • Wife traveled with him o They had their second child • Smith joined the Masonic Lodge in Idaho • Most of his career was spent in the Northwest however he did go back to MI for 2 years but then went back out to Boise where he coached football for the University of Idaho (58:11) Korea • Called up from the reserves o Served in Valdosta, GA at a base o Went in as Captain and got promoted to Major o Became a coach in the service again; they liked him so much as a coach that he was never sent to Korea but instead stayed at the base • After Korea, went back to coaching at University of Idaho (1:02:20) Michigan • 1956 began coaching at Alma College • Smith’s reputation was such that he was hired without meeting his employer • Became the head basketball and football coach; also coached some golf • Son was born • Stayed at Alma for a long time; coached until his retirement • Left the reserves when he came to Alma because there was not place to belong too in Alma (1:07:27) Masonry • Came to the Masonic Lodge in 1996, 1997, or 1998 and really enjoys it �(1:09:00) Family • He and his wife have 3 children, 6 grandchildren, and 4 great grandchildren � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SmithA Title A name given to the resource Smith, Arthur Louis (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Arthur Louis Description An account of the resource Arthur Louis Smith is a WW II and Korean War veteran who served in the United States Army and the National Guard. Smith served in WW II from 1942 until 1945 in the Pacific Theatre and served his time for Korea at Valdosta Base, Georgia. During WW II, Smith was on the same ship that General MacArthur was on when he signed the peace treaty with Japan. In this interview, Smith shares his childhood recollections during WWI that included witnessing the burning of an effigy of the Kaiser in Ste. Saint Marie, his home town. Smith discusses his high school years and his love of sports, which spurred a life long coaching career. Throughout his years in the service, Smith coached the Army and National Guard basketball teams. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Michigan. National Guard Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-05-15 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e9578c43bf07a98219c24d4f88b35c3.pdf 8f358b1a695cafccc75aa75636926190 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4397 Title A name given to the resource Portrait of Caleb B. Smith Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Caleb B. (Caleb Blood), 1808-1864 Subject The topic of the resource United States--Politics and government--19th century United States--Officials and employees Smith, Caleb B. (Caleb Blood), 1808-1864 Description An account of the resource Caleb B. Smith was appointed by Abraham Lincoln as the United States Secretary of the Interior in 1861. He resigned after not being appointed to United States Supreme Court the following year. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives