818 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d80dba05d1a485f553694b36c2ab69a8.pdf da7dd9cb98f645e645040777501c0f1b PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. George Shelby Interviewed on January 16, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #46 (1:25:23) Biographical Information George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 5 December 1878, the son of William Read Shelby and Mary Kennedy Cass. In 1903 George was married to Ann Miller about 1903. George died 31 August 1975 in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids at the age of 96. Ann Miller was born in November 1882 in Grand Rapids. She was the daughter of John Miller and Martha Nicholson. Ann died 26 April 1941 in Grand Rapids and both George and Ann are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. The father, William Read Shelby was born 4 December 1842 in Lincoln County, Kentucky and died at his home at 65 Lafayette NE 14 November 1930. The mother of George was Mary Kennedy Cass, born in Brownsville, Pennsylvania on 22 March 1847. She married William Shelby on 16 June 1869 in St. Stephen’s Church, Sewickley, Pennsylvania. Mary died in Grand Rapids on 3 May 1936. _____________ Interviewer: This recording is being made the afternoon of Friday or no, excuse me, it’s Thursday, Thursday, January the sixteen, nineteen seventy-five, at the residence of Mr. George Shelby, a house at two nineteen Youell, spelled Y-O-U-E-L-L, Street, Southeast, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. A, Mr. Shelby is, how old are you Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Ninety-six. Interviewer: You’re ninety-six years old. Mr. Shelby: December fifth. Interviewer: You’ve just passed your ninety-sixth birthday. Mr. Shelby: December the fifth. Interviewer: December the fifth? Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: I see. You were born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: Yes. �2 Interviewer: I see. Do you remember, what were you, do you have any very early memories of, you know, what did you… Mr. Shelby: About Nursery you mean? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: I think I went to Miss Reed’s Kindergarten. I remember that very well. It was up on the, on the north, Lafayette and Lyon Street, just beyond Lyon Street. I attended that. And also, a little place down there where that triangle where State and Portland… Interviewer: I know where. Mr. Shelby: Good. Interviewer: State and a… Mr. Shelby: Miss Reed’s. Interviewer: And Washington, maybe? Mr. Shelby: Yes, Washington. I attended kindergarten there. I mean, yes I was a pupil. Interviewer: Was Miss Reed at both locations? Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t remember the name of the kindergarten down there on State Street. Interviewer: I see. I want to turn it off and just make sure we’re recording right. Tell us about your experience at Miss Reed’s. Mr. Shelby: Well we were largely engaged in, making, recording maps of some sort, it was papery---weaving, making it into mats and designs of one kind or another. We thought were very good, very pretty. Interviewer: Like a mat of some sort? Mr. Shelby: We were commended for our stability. Interviewer: About how old were you then? Mr. Shelby: Oh I probably was, I don’t know whether I was three or four or five. Interviewer: Somewhere in there? Mr. Shelby: In infancy; I was surely an infant. Interviewer: Do you remember any other of the children that went there with you? �3 Mr. Shelby: Well I think Guy Widdicombe. Interviewer: Guy Widdicombe. Mr. Shelby: At State Street location. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: I think he was sent there too. Interviewer: That’s John Widdicombe’s father. Mr. Shelby: John, that’s right. Interviewer: Do you remember any other children in that— Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. No, I don’t remember any other children. Interviewer: I see. How many children do you suppose were in the school? Mr. Shelby: Oh I think seven or eight. Interviewer: Where did you go after that? Mr. Shelby: Oh, I think Fountain Street School. Interviewer: Where was that located Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: On Fountain Street and, Prospect is it? Interviewer: Uh huh. Mr. Shelby: Fountain Street School. Interviewer: They moved it later on as I recall. Mr. Shelby: Yes. Fountain Street School I attended. Interviewer: How long were you there? Mr. Shelby: Oh, then I moved over to Lyon Street where they, where the school is there, don’t you know? Interviewer: Oh yes, Central Grammar School. Is that what you call it? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, Grammar School. It’s right by where the doctor used to live, right across the corner from a, very prominent doctor lived there. What is his name? Interviewer: Dr. Campbell? No, no. �4 Mr. Shelby: No. Campbell was… Interviewer: This man lived across from the school? Mr. Shelby: Yes. He’s, his house is still there. He was one of our prominent surgeons at the time. Interviewer: Dr. Shephard. Mr. Shelby: No, it wasn’t Shephard. (A lady speaks in background) Mr. Shelby: Shephard lived, Shephard lived down, Shephard lived down on, Jefferson. Don’t you know where that restaurant is? The Dunham House was right next to the Shephards. Interviewer: The Holly house, oh yes, I see. We don’t, can’t remember the name of that doctor. Mr. Shelby: Famous doctor, a prominent surgeon in Grand Rapids at that time. He was right at the corner of Lyon and, Barclay, is it? His house is there now. Woman: Well, Dr. Smith, Dr. Smith’s father, Dr. Richard Smith… Mr. Shelby: No, I can’t think of his name. Interviewer: Maybe, maybe it’ll come back. Mr. Shelby: One of the, one of the most prominent physicians or surgeons in the city. Woman: I thought a, Dr. Richard Smith, haven’t you mentioned his brother? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: Dr. Richard Smith? Mr. Shelby: No, no none of that element, that’s all later. Woman: No? Interviewer: Yes, oh yes. Were you living on Fountain Street or Lafayette at that time? Mr. Shelby: On Lafayette. Interviewer: On Lafayette. Mr. Shelby: We’ve sold that house, quite a number of people bought it, the man with the Alabasking company lived there for a while. I can’t remember his name. The Alabasking Company? Interviewer: Yes, I remember, yes. �5 Mr. Shelby: And then there was a club there of bachelors, and Fox was one of them, the Fox brothers, Charles Fox? Interviewer: Yes, on Crofton. Mr. Shelby: On Crofton. And then one or two others. One tall man, named Cook, he was about seven feet high. I know I used to watch him, you’d measure his height with a lamppost. What was his name now? Berguin. Interviewer: Berguin? Mr. Shelby: Berguin. He was seven feet two. And as he passed the lamppost his head was even with that. Berguin. Interviewer: About what year would that have been? Before the turn of the century? Mr. Shelby: It would, let’s see, eighteen eighty, eighteen ninety. It would be about seventy-eight, eighty. It was in the eighties. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Eighteen eighty, around that neighborhood. Interviewer: What year do you think you moved to sixty-five Lafayette, Northeast? Mr. Shelby: I can’t remember exactly. Woman: How big were you? Mr. Shelby: In eighty eighteen (?). I was born in that house on Fountain Street. Interviewer: I see, you really were. Mr. Shelby: That was, Mrs. Booth asked me, do you remember that, this bedroom? She said. I said, Hardly Mrs. Booth, this is where I was born. That was also the Saint’s Rest Club, they called it. Interviewer: They called it the Saint’s Rest Club. I think I remember hearing about that. Mr. Shelby: That was, those were those bachelors. Interviewer: But they weren’t saints. Mr. Shelby: Yeah? Interviewer: Did they have a staff that took care of them? Mr. Shelby: I, they had a cook and maids, that’s all. Then later… �6 Woman: How old were you? Mr. Shelby:..they built the castle. Interviewer: The Foxes, the Foxes? Mr. Shelby: How old was I at that time? Woman: When you moved around the corner? Woman: Were you in school? Mr. Shelby: Oh I don’t know precisely. Mr. Shelby: Maybe seven or eight. I don’t remember elementary school precisely. I don’t remember exactly when Father, when we moved to Lafayette Avenue. And my aunt, see that property was bought by my grandfather for my father and mother. Interviewer: Your grandfather, grandfather Cass? Mr. Shelby: Yes, Grandfather Cass, George W. Cass, of New York. He at that time was a railroad president for the Pennsylvania from Pittsburg you see. And he bought the corner house and, for his son-in-law, Mr. Whalen, Henry D. Whalen. My Aunt Augustin, they lived there, on the corner house. That’s the one that --- is living in now. Then that was subsequently oh three, many people owned it other than that, the Rosenthal family moved in from Rochester. The clothing people. The tower clothing company, you know? Where the big clock is? Interviewer: Oh yes, yes, Rosenthal. Mr. Shelby: They lived there for quite a while, the Rosenthals. Interviewer: Tower Clock building is the building where Woolworths is now. Mr. Shelby: Where Woolworths is, yeah. That was one of the most prominent buildings in town. Interviewer: Let me just go on to another subject for the moment. I know that you went to St. Paul’s School in Concord, New Hampshire, that’s correct? Mr. Shelby: That is right. I had two brothers ahead of me, my brother Cass, the oldest, and then my brother Walter. Interviewer: They both went to St. Paul’s? Mr. Shelby: To St. Paul’s. Interviewer: What, how old were you when you went to St. Paul’s? �7 Mr. Shelby: I think I was about eleven or somewhere around there. Interviewer: Really, that young? So you must have stayed there quite a long time. Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, I was young. Because I won a race there, there’s the cup. Interviewer: Is there a date on that cup? Mr. Shelby: That was about… Woman: He said he was a very lonesome little boy. Mr. Shelby: Cross-Country cup. Woman: He’s been back many times at his reunions and all. Interviewer: Yes, I know. Let me see if I can read it. It’s a pretty cup. Woman: It is. Mr. Shelby: Eighteen ninety-four, is it? St. Paul’s School. Interviewer: Well then you would have been about sixteen at that time? Woman: That was just before he went to --Mr. Shelby: Can you read that? Interviewer: I’ll try, let’s see. Woman: He went when he was about eleven. Mr. Shelby: That was a common, like at Oxford and Cambridge and English schools, there were copies of, the rector was a great admirer of England you know and English schools, so St. Paul’s was modeled after them. Interviewer: It says Easter, eighteen ninety-four here. And then it says, lower school. Mr. Shelby: The lower school was for the boys, only twelve and thirteen years old, it’s a, yeah. Interviewer: Well then it says, aaron hollenzs/hounds (?) Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that’s a typical English custom in school. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Cross Country running. Interviewer: Do you remember the name of the headmaster? �8 Mr. Shelby: Aaron Hollenzs/Hounds you mean? Interviewer: No, the headmaster of Saint Paul’s. Mr. Shelby: Dr. Coit. Interviewer: Dr. Coit. Mr. Shelby: Henry Coit. Interviewer: Henry Coit. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: Was he there for quite a long time? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, he lived there and died there. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: About seventy-five. He had two brothers, Dr. Milner Coit who was a doctor, and one other one that was a clergyman too. It was very much of a church school, Episcopal Church school, modeled after English schools you know. Interviewer: What was your class at Yale? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: What was your class at Yale? Mr. Shelby: Nineteen hundred. Interviewer: Nineteen hundred. Mr. Shelby: It was when I graduated. Interviewer: Uh-huh. Mr. Shelby: eighteen ninety-six to nineteen hundred. Interviewer: So you went four years? Mr. Shelby: Yes, four years. Interviewer: Did you like Yale? Mr. Shelby: Did I like it? Interviewer: Yes. �9 Mr. Shelby: Yes, but I had a good time towards the last. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: I was, not too brilliant. I was just an ordinary pupil, don’t you know? Interviewer: Did you go back to your most recent reunion or? Woman: Yes. Mr. Shelby: I have been, yes. I have been, I guess maybe, how many years ago was it? Woman: Nineteen seventy. Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: You’ve been to every one for the last five years. Interviewer: Nineteen seventy. Woman: For about the last twenty years now. And quite a few before that. Interviewer: That would have been your seventieth reunion, right? Mr. Shelby: There’s no point in going back now because there’s nobody living but myself and Harry Wells, and he’s so lame he can’t navigate. Woman: Last time they sat Interviewer: Of course. Mr. Shelby: I think there’s about forty boys in my class, the class of nineteen hundred. Interviewer: Nineteen hundred. Mr. Shelby: Started in at that number, I think about thirty graduated I would think. Interviewer: Did you stay most of the time in New Haven or did you go to New York on weekends or what did you? Mr. Shelby: Oh, occasionally. They frowned on that sort of thing. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: They rather discouraged your leaving New Haven. I mean, other things being equal. You weren’t a prisoner, but the less you done ---, the more they were pleased. Woman: It’s different now I think. �10 Interviewer: I just wanted to ask you, going back to earlier days in Grand Rapids, I believe you’re a member of Saint Mark’s, correct? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: Were you baptized in that church? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: In those days did families have their own pews? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Pew 93. Interviewer: Pew 93. Mr. Shelby: Yes. Still have it. Interviewer: Did you have to pay an annual rental in those days? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: Do you know what it was? Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. My father took care of that. Interviewer: Well I remember it was customary in those days… Mr. Shelby: He was a vestrament (?) they called him. --Interviewer: Wasn’t he senior warden also? Mr. Shelby: Yes, senior warden, yes. Interviewer: Well now to go back again to your, to Grand Rapids, what did you, when you were a young person, what did you do for a social life in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: We went to barn dances and dances, dancing school. Gage and Benedick’s Dancing School. Interviewer: Gage and Benedick’s.Yeah, where was that? Mr. Shelby: Miss Gage and Miss Benedick. -----and they were giving the hell to these arm wrists (?), they call them arm wrists the local cooks those arm wrists Interviewer: Yes. �11 Mr. Shelby: I think there’s one right, one was located about – opposite of Michigan on Ionia Street, where Michigan National Bank is right across the street or where Central Bank is, I think there’s an armory there. And later on, the St. Cecilia. Interviewer: Later on St. Cecilia. We’re going to talk about winter sports, what did you do in the winter? Mr. Shelby: Skating largely; sliding down Fountain Street. Woman: And Michigan. Mr. Shelby: That hill was black with sleds. We got so angry with the hacks, they’d get in the way you know, they were not supposed to be, a whole bunch of hacks lined up at the Morton House, outside the Morton House. Interviewer: Would they start right up at Lafayette? Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: And how far down would they go? Mr. Shelby: To Division Street. Interviewer: All the way to Division? Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Depended upon the condition of the slide, of the board. There’d by thirty people. Ed Earl had a bob, bobs you know, thirty-foot bobs. Interviewer: That’s Mr. Edward Earl? Mr. Shelby: Edward Earl, the corner of Fountain and Lafayette. It was Ed, Ed, the youngest one, not Fred, not the father. He had a thirty foot bob ----. Thirty boys and girls. It was a pretty swift… Interviewer: I’ll bet it was. Mr. Shelby: We’d, it was so slippery, that they had to put sand on the, down where the Union Bank is, the foot of the street, so you wouldn’t turn into Monroe. That was some slide. Interviewer: Was there sliding on that hill too? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. The dam, the reservoir, dangerous you know. Sure. Interviewer: Were there other hills? �12 Mr. Shelby: New Year’s Day the city had Mid Street, the streets were blocked off, and the hill was given to sliding. Interviewer: You’re talking about what we now call Michigan Street? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: Where did you start? At the top or? Mr. Shelby: Right on, well about, I’d think Barclay about, seems I remember. Interviewer: Barclay, yeah. And how far down did they go? Mr. Shelby: They’d go down to where the hotel is. Interviewer: All the way to Monroe. Mr. Shelby: They’d put sand out to stop them. Those went down at a terrible pace; thirty people on those bobs you know. I wouldn’t say a mile a minute but, you know, seemed like it. They say forty miles an hour or something like that. Interviewer: I wouldn’t be surprised. Where did you do your skating? Mr. Shelby: At Reed’s Lake. Interviewer: Reed’s Lake. Was there a place out there where you could warm up? Mr. Shelby: Yes, there was. I’ve forgotten the name of the man that ran it. Yeah. It’s right where the Lakeside Club was later built. Interviewer: Let’s see now. Going back to social life again, were there any clubs for younger people, for younger men? Mr. Shelby: Saints Rest, you see I’m trying to think of… Woman: Something on the River that you spoke of--Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, Boat and Canoe Club; I belonged to that up at North Park. Interviewer: Do you remember some of the other people who were active in that? Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. I don’t remember. It was quite a big club. It was located right before you get on the bridge, crossing the river, that was the headquarters. Interviewer: Would that be Ann Street perhaps today? Mr. Shelby: Huh? �13 Interviewer: That would be Ann Street today? Mr. Shelby: Possibly, I don’t remember. I wouldn’t want to say definitely. It’s right as you start across onto the bridge to cross the river. Interviewer: I know that in the old days the most common form of transportation was, well, street cars. Mr. Shelby: Well, but the dummies… Interviewer: But now that brings up a question: What was the dummy line or the dummy? Mr. Shelby: It was a, some sort of an engine, that pulled a so open car, where you sat, seats across seats you know. Interviewer: Was it a stream engine? Mr. Shelby: I think so yes. Interviewer: In other words, did the streetcar stop at a certain place and then you got into another kind of a vehicle? Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Same way at Reed’s Lake. Interviewer: Where did you change to get on the dummy there? Mr. Shelby: Right there on Eastern Avenue where that funeral parlor is. You corralled, it was fenced in there. That’s as far as the streetcar went, send you down on the dummy. Then you went down, straight down the street and then turned and went, headed for Reed’s Lake. Was about a twenty or thirty minute ride on the dummy to get to the lake. Interviewer: Was that quite a summer resort place too in those days? Mr. Shelby: Well, not exactly no. No. Interviewer: Did they have boats on the lake? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, they had amusements, yeah boats. They had, well Manhattan Beach they had boats across the lake. There were two boats and they were always fighting one another, bumping into one another, having battles. Woman: Big boats? Interviewer: Were they large boats? Mr. Shelby: Well, one was big, broad, broad one you know…Bud used to work on one of them. �14 Woman: What were those boats? The Watson? Interviewer: One of the last ones was the Ramona that I remember. And then there was one called the Hazel A and one called the Major Watson I think it was called. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, Major Watson. That Dago that owned, one day was having a battle you know, they wanted to run into, ram the Major Watson. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: He was a smaller, trim little boat. I’ve forgotten the name of the owner, the Italian, but his dock was –that way – Interviewer: Now your father came here with the, to be, to run the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad, is that correct? Mr. Shelby: That’s right. Interviewer: And your grandfather Cass was president of the… Mr. Shelby: Fort Wayne, Cincinnati-Fort Wayne, Chicago-Cincinnati, yes, the Pennsylvania from Pittsburgh to Chicago. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago I think was the title. Interviewer: Were there other members of the family in that railroad? Mr. Shelby: No, no. Interviewer: I see. Tell me about your uncle, Mr. Henry D. Whalen Jr. Who, What did he do? Mr. Shelby: I don’t know, other than Grandfather bought that house on Fountain and Lafayette for Mr. Whalen and my Aunt Augusta. Henry D. Whalen is. And Michigan Iron Works is what he was head of, and my grandfather put him into it. It was a medium-size organization. And he was head of the Michigan Iron Works; he was the son-in-law of George W. Cass, as my father was. Woman: Did he go to Westpoint, your father? Did Henry Whalen, he went to Westpoint? Mr. Shelby: Did what? Interviewer: Did he go to Westpoint? Woman: Westpoint? The school? Henry Whalen? �15 Mr. Shelby: Oh, I don’t remember. Woman: I was wondering if he was in the army. Mr. Shelby: Very possibly he did. My grandfather went to Westpoint for sure. George W. Cass did. Woman: -and someone else did. Mr. Shelby: He was a mathematician. I missed out on the mathematics, I’ve had to contend with all my life. Interviewer: Do you remember your grandfather Cass? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. Interviewer: Did he come to Grand Rapids or did you go to see him? Mr. Shelby: Occasionally. Interviewer: Did you go to visit him? Mr. Shelby: Yes, I remember him very well. He lived at 52 West Fifty-Seventh Street. Interviewer: 52 West Fifty-Seventh Street. Woman: In New York. Mr. Shelby: He was quite severe to me. Interviewer: Now, didn’t they have a home in S--- Pennsylvania? Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s, yes he did. Interviewer: He had two homes then? Mr. Shelby: He had two homes, first in Allegheny and then in S---. C--- they called the name of it. Had ___, which is a suburb of Pittsburg. There is quite a noted author person who came and lived there. I can’t remember her name now. She bought it. Interviewer: I can’t remember Women: Mary Reynold Reinhart? Interviewere: Mary Reynold Reinhart perhaps? Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah. She bought it. �16 Interviewer: Now, did he have the house in New York at the same that he had the house in S_ikcley (?) Mr. Shelby: I’m pretty sure, I don’t remember about that one, no. Interviewer: But you knew the address. Mr. Shelby: Well 52 West 57th Woman: That’s where you used to go and visit. Mr. Shelby: Right across the street was the sonspace (?). Tall, long stone apartment which was called an apartment building, it was rather unusual because they weren’t many of them in New York at that time. Interviewer: What was the name of it again, please? Mr. Shelby: The sauncee I guess. I don’t know how to spell it. It was an apartment building. Interviewer: How little would you have been when you weren’t to go see your grandfather? Mr. Shelby: Oh, well I think it would be fourteen or something like that. Interviewer: I see, well, now… Mr. Shelby: Now we sent down by our grandfather’s casket, we’ll get a little culture, we were considered a little build raw and wild having gone from Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Well you were going to St. Paul’s and Yale, but that was… Mr. Shelby: Later on… Interviewer: right, that’s right. Mr. Shelby: Preceding that I was groomed to walk down 5th avenue and to look like I belonged. Interviewer: I see. Mr .Shelby: I still had what I was considered a little wild compared with my cousin Kenny Wallen. I was a little more aggressive. He was quieter and a little bit bored. He didn’t have the help as I did or the buoyancy. And I suppose Sunday is full with very impressive the procession on 5th avenue, of people going to churches and the various churches, the various clubs you know. Interviewer: Where did your grandfather go to church? Mr. Shelby: Christ church. In fact he was a vestament (?). What do you call them? Interviewer: Yes, vestament. �17 Mr. Shelby: Yeah you know he was, he bought a beard of course, I remember that. He could be very quiet and very severe, and make you feel like a, you know, a shrimp. I was taken out there to try to get a little bit of the western blood out of me, don’t you know. In New York you have to baby yourself. You walk very sedately; hold your grandfather’s hand. Interviewer: Did you know your grandmother too? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, she was invalid most of her life, but I knew her. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Had nurses all the time and probably rubbings and you know…she was more or less in a state of invalidism. Interviewer: I see. Your grandfather lived to an advanced age? Mr. Shelby: Did he what? Interviewer: Did he live to an advanced age? Mr. Shelby: I think it was in the high 70’s I would say. Interviewer: High 70’s. I see. Mr. Shelby: Like 78 or some such… nothing like my father, my father lived to be 90, 89 really. Interviewer: 89. Mr. Shelby: My mother (life was)? Interviewer: Where was your mother’s, excuse me, where did your father’s family come from? Mr. Shelby: Kentucky. Danville, Kentucky. Interviewer: What about Shelbyville? Where does that figure? Mr. Shelby: Oh I think they just used them as names. They they they just liked the name Shelby. I don’t think it was… Interviewer: I see, so they are really from Danville, Kentucky. Mr. Shelby: Danville, yeah. Isaac Shelby was the youngest in Kentucky and he lived, I think in Danville Kentucky. Anyway, I’d have to…I’d been to that, to see the places over. Interviewer: Do you have any relatives left down there that you know or know anything about? Mr. Shelby: I don’t think so, no. �18 Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: No. Interviewer: Well now when, after you got out of Yale, did you come right back to Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: I went to Europe. Interviewer: Oh, you went to Europe. Well tell us about that. Mr. Shelby: Well we went out of Minneapolis. There was a boat that carried cattle. Took 15 days to cross and we were limited to about 15 or 15 or 20 people, 15 I would say, nice people. Interviewer: Did you go… Mr. Shelby: I mean I Interviewer: Did you go with your family? Mr. Shelby: No, just Harry Whittaker and myself and these people. There were some relatives of Yale families aboard this camp. She quite a stunning girl, I remember, she was a decent quarter camp she was very famous at Yale. Woman: I remember hearing about Walter Camp. Interviewer: Walter Camp, a big figure at Yale. Woman: A famous athlete, but I don’t know what sport. Was he football player, or what was he father? Mr. Shelby: Uh, I forget, yeah I think so. She was out there, and her mother. We had the whole ship the cattle were below you. You didn’t even know they were there. I mean there was, there wasn’t any contact with them. Interviewer: 15 days. Mr. Shelby: Yeah… Interviewer: Where did you… Mr. Shelby: Minneapolis Interviewer: Where did you land when you got there? Mr. Shelby: We landed in London. Interviewer: In London. �19 Mr. Shelby: In London. Then we had to take a tram up to London. Interviewer: Did you go, well maybe you landed in South Hampton? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, South Hampton. I think so, yeah. Right at the foot of the Themes River. Interviewer: Well, maybe you did land closer to London. Mr. Shelby: Once every 15 miles a trip up the tram was, they called it up to the town you know. And we walked right up to the Fogger (?) Square, I remember the hotel very well. North Umberland (?) Avenue. A very short street. There was a clubhouse across the street from them but it was a 7 story clubhouse I used to see club men go up in an out of that and that time I was there. So I went in there and I was, and at that time Harry’s sister, Mary and some woman from Kalamazoo had apartments up on one of the avenues. One of those fashionable streets, you know, up near the Arch de Triumph. Interviewer: Now wait, I lack, we got from London to Paris pretty quickly. How long did you stay in London? Mr. Shelby: Oh well I think we were there maybe 10 days or so before we went to Paris. Woman: They climbed up to the top of St. Paul’s and they… Interviewer: Now you, you went, you climbed up to the top of St. Paul’s? St. Paul’s cathedral? Mr. Shelby: Yes, yes we did. Both of us, that’s about 500 steps. Woman: Father, who was the man who took you around the dock? Where the… Mr. Shelby: Oh, oh that was later on when I was aboard a, I was on board one of these double decker buses you know, and a man sat down next to me and said ―You are an American aren’t you?‖ and I said, yes I am. Well he says ―I am William Louis‖, or what did I say? What did I say? Well he said ―I’m Good’s manager for London’s southwest royalty, perhaps you would like to see the London dock.‖ Yeah, then I said, yeah I certainly would. So he gave me a pass to go to the London dock. Which I did and everything under the sun that England brings by boat is stored there. Elephant tusks and rhinoceros horns, and hides and everything under the sun that comes from all over the world where England has got a count in it, there’s a store there on bond. You see and it’s drawn by order you know, the London dock can be very very expensive. Interviewer: Was this there, on the first trip you took? Mr. Shelby: Yes, this is then. Interviewer: You saw this on your first trip? �20 Mr. Shelby: Yes it is. There I was sitting on top of a bus when this man recognized me. I said, how’d you know? He said ―Well you are worried about both of you‖ he says, I saw that, a boater (?). Interviewer: Well then you went to Paris. Mr. Shelby: William Wilkins. Yeah, and then I went to Paris. And mother had a house there, and mother and my sister Violet had an apartment there too. But I spent my time in Paris roaming about the city like anyone would you know. Interviewer: You said that your sister Mary had a, no excuse me, Mr. Whittaker’s sister.. Mr. Shelby: Violet. My sister Violet. Interviewer: Your sister, but also Mr. Whittaker’s sister had uh... Mr. Shelby: Well she and a Mrs. from Kalamazoo, I can’t remember the women’s name had this apartment up near the Arch de Triumph right in the very center of Paris. Interviewer: And your mother and your sister also had a… Mr. Shelby: We were living on the West bank (?) Interviewer: Your mother and sister, were they there at the same time you were? Mr. Shelby: Uh, no later. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Woman: They were there when father was there though. They came over there. Interviewer: Did you Mr. Shelby: We were there in Paris for maybe a week or 10 days. We were booked for Howmagmiow (???) a fashion play down in Austria. And so Harry and I went to that and it was, and we had to go through Germany down into where the fashion play was. We saw that and it was all day long in the… Interviewer: Does that mean, would you have traveled all the way by train? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Munich. Not which I would recommend that name I remember. Interviewer: And after the fashion play where did you go? Mr. Shelby: Then we came back to Paris and… �21 Interviewer: And you returned to this country from France? Mr. Shelby: Yes, I came back with my mother and sister. Woman: You went to Holland. Mr. Shelby: No, Holland is where we landed. Interviewer: I see. Woman: Ok yeah. Mr. Shelby: On our trip out from here, when we came from this side. Woman: So maybe from England. Mr. Shelby: That was very customary, the fashion play was believe it or not, wasn’t an annual thing as I remember but it’s still going on I guess. Interviewer: Well now when you got back from Europe, what did you do? Did you go to work right away, or…? Mr. Shelby: We would work in Papa’s office in the treasury department. Interviewer: And how long did you stay there? Mr. Shelby: Umm, quite a good many years. Interviewer: Where was his office? Mr. Shelby: In the GR and I building, the railroad office on Ionia street. Interviewer: the _LAD plant? Interviewer: Was that the building that was torn down about 10 years ago? Mr. Shelby: Yeah yeah. Interviewer: I remember it. Mr. Shelby: I worked in that on the books you know, oh agents agents were___ I would take them down to the bank you know. All the money that would come in from the ticket sales all along the line, from Richmond down to Mackinac. Woman: Then you went up to Al Gold Mine(?) and built the railroad. Mr. Shelby: What? Woman: When did you go up to Al Gold Mine(?) ? �22 Mr. Shelby: Oh that was later on. Woman: Oh. Mr. Shelby: Yeah later on. Woman: That must have been hard. Mr. Shelby: Later on the Al Gold (?) had sent the railway it was formed by the Canadian people from the Pennsylvania railroad thought that we might have some connection with it so they suggested my father they, so they said send a representative up to see how the railroad was getting on, and I was the boy that went there. And I was landed in the Sault and I took a boat, I took a boat from the Sault to this point where Montreal was it Montreal river empties in to Lake Superior. From there I was dumped all into the steamer, and the steamer into about 6 feet of water. Like a dungeon. I am like soaking wet you know, I made that trip with an Indian and a squall and they were down somewhere further further in the steamer and then I had to walk from there to where the camp was, about 12 miles inland. Interviewer: What year, what year would that have been Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Let’s see… Interviewer: Near the 1900’s we know that… Mr. Shelby: Maybe 19-6 or so, something like that. After I had been to the GR. So that Mr. Mckray was the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad at that time suggests to my father that someone will be up there looking after their interests, and I was the boy that was sent. Interviewer: How long did you stay? Mr. Shelby: Oh, I stayed until December. Interviewer: Was there a settlement up there, or a little town? Mr. Shelby: No, just the railway, just building the railway. Interviewer: Just the…I see, I see. Mr. Shelby: Laying the track. Interviewer: I see, actually building the railway Mr. Shelby: Right away, yeah Interviewer: mmhmm �23 Mr. Shelby: But it was quite picturesque spot right next to the Montreal River. They’ve since dammed it, to the lake there. But there was a waterfall right, we camped at a waterfall, we looked down the little waterfall. This you know, the Canadian engineer and his helper and I was timekeeper. I walked everyday about 10 or 15 miles to take the time of then on the job you know. Interviewer: Would this have been north of Lake Superior? Mr. Shelby: Yes on the north side of Lake Superior. Interviewer: mmhmm, mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Woman: There is a railroad there now an excursion. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, there is a complete railway now, it goes about 300 miles on the s---? Interviewer: Is that that new that excursion that goes from Sault Ste Marie? Mr. Shelby: Out over __ Hudson Bay. Interviewer: Quite popular now. Women: Quite mountainous. Mr. Shelby: Yeah we took we took last year a train there you know it was delightful. There’s a there’s a stone there’s …I think I picked up that stone at the canyon it’s over there that round, get it. Yeah that round stone. Well… Interviewer: Well we’ll turn it off… Mr. Shelby: It’s because I picked that up and bought a stone. Interviewer: That’s a very beautiful stone. Mr. Shelby: Isn’t it? I’m crazy about stones. It was from the ___ canyon. Interviewer: Does that weigh about 10 lbs? Does that weight about 10 lbs. Mr. Shelby: Yeah I’d say about that. They tell a story. That waterfalls and the cascades at that canyon. In fact I have got descriptive literature and pamphlets up here. Interviewer: Well now, were you married at this time? Mr. Shelby: I think so. Woman: Yeah if it was 19… �24 Mr. Shelby: No, no I wasn’t. Interviewer: Do you remember was it… Mr. Shelby: No, I wasn’t married. Interviewer: Do you remember the year you were married? Mr. Shelby: No, I wasn’t married at that time. I was single. Interviewer: I see. Were you married in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: No, I’m not…I can’t remember… Woman: Was it Indianapolis? Mr. Shelby: …no I’m trying to… Woman: Anyway they went to visit that nice place down in Carolina. Interviewer: Well there are quite a few places. Woman: Ashville, Ashville. I don’t think they got married down there, I think it was someplace in Indiana. Interviewer: Where did you live after you were married Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Hmm, I was trying to think about it. Woman: Barkley, Barkley Street. Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah, on Barkley Street. That’s right. Interviewer: Whereabouts? Do you remember the number? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, well it was an apartment building. Did, did…a red brick apartment building. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: It was just a going down Fountain Street you could look glance up Barkley Street you could see the building from there. I wouldn’t know the number; it was a two story building. Woman: You have to take Clark to get there. Interviewer: Yeah, I think I know the building, right. Mr. Shelby: It’s still there. Interviewer: Mmhmm, yeah. �25 Mr. Shelby: You can see it if you walk up Fountain Street, you can see it. Interviewer: Yup. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: That was your first home? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. Interviewer: Well now, I understand you went to California. When did you go to California? Mr. Shelby: I’m not exactly, I’ve forgotten now. Woman: It must have been 1910. Interviewer: Was it about 1910? Mr. Shelby: I’ve forgotten exactly. Interviewer: Well… Mr. Shelby: I had gotten interested through the Santé Fe people in the establishment of a colony to grow fruits, you know? Interviewer: Mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: And they were retired to it later on. Then my money bought the tract. Out in Reedley California. Interviewer: Where was it in California? Mr. Shelby: Reedley. Interviewer: Where is that? Mr. Shelby: Well it’s right in the central valley, central to the San Joaquin Valley. Interviewer: How do you, how do you spell Reedley? Mr. Shelby: R-double E-D-L-E-Y. Interviewer: uh huh. Mr. Shelby: Reedley California. It was outside of that of a small town. Where the where the I named the tract after after my wife Annadelle Colony. And it was through, it was by the foot of Mt. Campbell was this tract of land, right at the foot of the high Sierras. Interviewer: mmhmm. �26 Mr. Shelby: The high Sierras began in the San Joaquin Valley right west of our land. You would look up at the high Sierras. Had a wonderful view of the mountains, the high Sierras. Interviewer: You raised oranges? Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s what the idea, yeah, then… Interviewer: And how long were you there doing that? Mr. Shelby: Oh, say I was maybe 10 or 15 years I would say. Woman: 1922? Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: And those, Bill was born there, and Cameron. Woman: 1922? Mr. Shelby: But I was in charge, in charge of the development though you know this used to be Santé Fe employees when they retired would move out to their place to their rows and develop it. It was tracts you know, the colony was. Each owner. Interviewer: How much was it when you started? Mr. Shelby: I had 20 acres, and one or two men had 40 acres. Interviewer: Oh really? Mr. Shelby: But they. Interviewer: I’m going to turn the tape over. Interviewer: Now this is side 2 of the interview recorded with Mr. George Shelby on Thursday, January 16, 1975. Ok, you were talking about the grove, and you mentioned that you also grew figs out there. Mr. Shelby: Yes, 5 acres of figs, and 15 of oranges. Interviewer: Was there some sort of a central building, where people gathered? Mr. Shelby: No, no not... Interviewer: I see, your individual homes? Mr. Shelby: Individual homes. Interviewer: Mmhmm. �27 Mr. Shelby: There were 2 or 3 others that were small, we were cottages. I don’t think, that was our little house. Interviewer: I see it, yeah. Mr. Shelby: This was Mount Campbell. You can’t you can’t see the top of it. Woman: Many trees though. Mr. Shelby: That’s about a thousand feet high, and this is all level ground. And on this side there was another mountain, Mount Chomininee and there’s about, you go through the gap you’ve got the Fresno about 25 miles away that way. Interviewer: Hmm Mr. Shelby: And that’s Bill, Interviewer: That’s Bill. Mr. Shelby: and that’s Eleanor, and there’s County, the horse. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: And that was, that was that little house I put up and I think it was cost about 800 dollars. Interviewer: Really? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, put it up in about 2 days. I mean, the carpenters did it. Of course after that we enlarged it. We added a porch. Interviewer: Here’s another picture Mr. Shelby, Eleanor got. Mr. Shelby: Mmhmm, yeah. Yeah, that’s Bill, Eleanor and a little pool I built. Well, of course this after the first year and we kept embellishing it, all the time. Looks quite a finished place. Interviewer: How many people were there? Mr. Shelby: Nobody else at that time up until the time we left, except the hired men in the other 20’s and 40’s. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: They were there in the small houses you know. We were the only people who had a fairly sized place and kept enlarging it. Interviewer: In what year do you think you returned to Grand Rapids? �28 Mr. Shelby: Gosh, let me see. Interviewer: Sometimes during the 1920’s I would… Mr. Shelby: I think so. Woman: I think about ’22? Interviewer: Your daughter says… Mr. Shelby: My father and mother came out and visited me several times, but I find this sold out you know, can’t return to Grand Rapids and return to the railroads. Interviewer: How long were you with the railroads, again? Mr. Shelby: Oh let’s see, I can’t remember the dates. Well I remember we got them, I got to representing firms for insurance stock in Chicago. Billy Baker got me into that. I wasn’t doing anything for awhile. Interviewer: Who was Billy Baker? Mr. Shelby: Well he was just a Grand Rapids boy. Billy Baker, his brother was quite prominent. I don’t, they were in the brokers business. He got me interested, I represented, what did I do? The fire insurance you know that sort of stuff. Interviewer: Mmhmm. Mr.Shelby: Then I got into the investment business. Interviewer: Let’s go back to the your association with Mr. Baker, where did you have an office then? Mr.Shelby: In the Michigan Trust building. Interviewer: In the Michigan Trust building. Mr. Shelby: In the Michigan Trust building. Interviewer: Then you got into the brokerage business, or? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I got into the, I can’t think of his name he was very prominent, he represented the LeeAgents (?) and Company, they were the top people in the United States in that in the brokerage business you know. Interviewer: LeeAgents and Company. �29 Mr. Shelby: They were nationwide. I mean, in the eastern part of the state. They, what killed them was the suicide of Iber Kreuger in Paris this was east liberty, between liberty and so Lee Havenson was ruined, and I’m trying to think of the man who got me interested in Lee Havenson. His son is also the trustee. What is his name? Tall, Arthur? What is his name? Funny I can’t think of it. Well anyway he he was a representative of Lee Havenson and he invited me to join them as a join representative of the Lee Havenson company. We were in the Michigan Trust building up on the 9th floor I think. And after this happened, when this man committed suicide, Lee Havenson finally went into bankruptcy I guess as a result of that, his suicide. Then a Mr. Mcmhoffan invited me to join their firm and I was there ever since. John Mcmhoffan invited me. Interviewer: Yes, John Mcmhoffan. Mr. Shelby: Mumbling. Interviewer: When did Sam Greenwalt join that firm? Mr. Shelby: When did what? Interviewer: When did Sam Greenwalt join the firm? Mr. Shelby: Well I guess they were original firm this, I don’t know that he joined it. He was he was the trader they called him, managed it. And John was the was the president he was vice president, Sam Greenwalt was vice president. Interviewer: Mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: I don’t know how many years they had been established when I joined them, but quite a few years, maybe 10 years. I think you could get some confirmation to that from Ms. Romence would know that. Maude Romence would know. Interviewer: Maude Romence? Mr. Shelby: Yeah Interviewer: R-O-M-A-N-C-E? Mr. Shelby: She would know all about it, she was secretary. Huh? Interviewer: How do you spell her name? Mr. Shelby: R-O-M-E-N-C-E Interviewer: E-N-C-E, oh. Mr. Shelby: She was secretary of the, Ray Brinn was the cashier, I remember him being small, short and dumpy. I can’t remember his association but he took care of the books. But anyway, I �30 was Mr. Mcmhoffan invited me into the firm and put on Greenwall’s told me which had been going maybe some 10 years maybe, I couldn’t tell you exactly when. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: …and I’ve been with him ever since. Interviewer: Where are they now Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Well Mr. Mcmhoffan, Interviewer: No, I mean where is the firm? Mr. Shelby: Oh it’s it’s, well it’s in the Michigan Trust building. In the old kindle. Interviewer: In the old kindle. Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, but it isn’t a firm anymore. We’ve off and died and sold us in. Suddenly it keeled over and…you know. Interviewer: I remember. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, very dramatically. And that’s the end of Sam Greenwalt and John. John got out of it and went south. John Jr. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: John Jr. So there is no one left there except Jim Short, who was a salesman, as I was, and started the railroads and other things, transportation largely. And of course I sold them into, I thought it was good, you know consumer’s power they chose it. But I specialized in the railroad and I still have them. And they are the best investment on the market today because they don’t have any packaging (?) laws. Because they, they got oil. Santé Fe, Southern Pacific, and Union Pacific, all very prosperous I have 3 of them. Interviewer: Would you advise me to buy those today? Mr. Shelby: I certainly would. You couldn’t buy anything better. I just bought 10 more shares of Union Pacific. That’s about 70 years old of uninterrupted dividends. Interviewer: That’s pretty good. Mr. Shelby: Ha, can’t beat it. Interviewer: Who were some of the other tenants in that Michigan Trust building, when you worked there? �31 Mr. Shelby: Well there was that insurance office on the corner building. What was, who were they? Woman: Grenol Roll? Interviewer: Grenol Rol? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Who? Woman: Grenol Rowl? Mr. Shelby: Grenol Roll? Woman: Uh-huh. Mr. Shelby: I think they were. Well there were lawyers in there, quite a well Meryl Lynch was in there for awhile on the 6th floor. Until they moved over to that building next to the Prince Club, you know. It was full of lawyers and uh, let’s see, who else? Well there was the University Club, at the top. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: Isn’t that the, Arthur Whitworth. That is the man who got me into the Lee Havenson Company. Arthur Whitworth. Interviewer: J. Arthur Whitworth. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: I remember I don’t remember him, but I remember the name Mr. Shelby: He wore a beard. Interviewer: Yes. Yes I think I do remember him. Mr. Shelby: That’s right; his son was made the vice president of the Michigan trust, very smart man. Well, no now it comes back clearly. I, Lewis Dewes was a small medium sized insurance company that Billy Baker got me connected with in Chicago. And I don’t know if… Interviewer: What was the name of that firm sir? Lewis… Mr. Shelby: Yeah… Interviewer: How do you spell it? Mr. Shelby: Lewis, Lewis. L-E-W-I-S. Interviewer: Yes. �32 Mr. Shelby: D-E-W-E-S, Lewis Dewes, they were an insurance business. And Billy Baker got me into going into that. I represented them for awhile in the insurance, selling insurance stock. And I had an office in the Michigan Trust on the 9th floor at the end of the building right next to the where Phil Fuller and other people were interested in the lumber business I and then I later on whatyama I just mentioned his name invited me in to leave. Interviewer: Whitworth Mr. Shelby: And I was with them until I was in South Bend stopping to see a friend there when I got the news in the elevator that Lee Havenson, that Koogerage had shot himself I mean. And then that came, and then after that it was a piece of chaos, gradually until the rest of them, they just simply knocked it all out. It was too big of a scandal worldwide you know. I think mother mother was in Europe at the time on some other trip. I’m not sure now. Interviewer: I called on your nephew Bud Kunuclip the other evening. Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah, Buddy. Interviewer: And he was, uh telling me that your father was had a nickname Dandy. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that was just a pet name. Yeah. Woman: We all called him that. Mr. Shelby: He was just a marvelous man. My, wonderful father. There is a good picture of him. Interviewer: Yeah, I’ve seen, I saw the picture when I came in. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, he was a wonderful man. Interviewer: Were your parents quite active in society, or? Mr. Shelby: Yes, we… Interviewer: Or entertained the field? Mr. Shelby: We had a good many, we had a good many entertainments at Lafayette Avenue. And… Interviewer: What sorts of entertainments? Mr. Shelby: Well, uh reception was one kind of them, the connection with the art gallery, we we donated quite a number of things to the art gallery when my father died, which they have now. Some very handsome tables and things, mirrors. Interviewer: It was a big, big house. �33 Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, 12 foot high ceilings. Mrs. Young, Mrs. Sam Young bought those mirrors that were in the par, in the parlor. Those 12 foot mirrors, they came I think from New York, New York City, my Grandfather’s house in New York. Interviewer: Were these parties that your mother and father these receptions, were they very large affairs? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: How many people? Mr. Shelby: Oh 50,60, or 70. Interviewer: Mmhmm. And were they catered? Mr. Shelby: huh? Interviewer: Were they catered? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, they uh, what’s the name of the caterer? Woman: I remember, Jen Door? Interviewer: Dr. Jenoff? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, it had to be. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Oh we had quite a lot of receptions. That was a big house. The library was 30 feet long and the dining room was 40. Interviewer: Ooh. Mr. Shelby: I mean the crossway. Interviewer: Yeah. Woman: I remember a couple…president. Mr. Shelby: 12 foot 12 foot ceilings that I love. Just think, I had to get rid of them and I got 6,000 dollars and they are asking 80,000 for it now. 80,000 is full like a rabbits worn it makes me sick… Interviewer: Who… �34 Mr. Shelby: …that a man would go buy it. Interviewer: ..were your neighbors on Lafayette Street? Mr. Shelby: The McNights. Interviewer: Yes, who? Mr. Shelby: Like Anna McNight. Interviewer: I remember her of course, but… Mr. Shelby: Well quite a number, what was the name of that big clergyman we had? Can’t think of it. His name was… Woman: Was it Campbell Fayer? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: I’ve heard you speak of Campbell Fayer. Interviewer: Campbell Fayer? Mr. Shelby: No, he was he was back in the when I was a boy he gave me Baltimore. No, I…McKormick! Interviewer: Where did Mr. McKormick live? Mr. Shelby: He lived on Lafayette. Interviewer: I didn’t know that. Mr. Shelby: Yes, I think the church owned that building on South Lafayette. Interviewer: Oh, South Lafayette. Mr. Shelby: Quite a good size. Interviewer: Oh yes, I know I know where it is. Mr. Shelby: I think that is an Episcopal residence. Interviewer: Yeah, who who were some of the other people who lived on Lafayette, closer to you? Across the street for instance. Mr. Shelby: Next to us was the Gilberts. Interviewer: The Gilberts next door. �35 Mr. Shelby: The gas company. Beautiful home. Interviewer: And the Hazeltines? Mr. Shelby: The Hazeltines lived right on John street, right right through they’re joining our backyard. Interviewer: And you remember Dr. Hazeltine? Mr. Shelby: Oh, very well. Interviewer: Can you tell us a little bit about him? Mr. Shelby: He was a big old muffin top, I remember that. You know, size things you, he was a very closed mouth very severe type man. Dignified, you know. Stately, I’d say kind of a stately type. Interviewer: Was he tall? Mr. Shelby: No. Interviewer: He’s not tall… Mr. Shelby: Medium, we’ll say maybe 5 feet 9 or 10. Interviewer: Mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: No, he wasn’t a big man. He wasn’t big like my father. My father was, my father was 6 feet. No he wasn’t, he was medium height. Mrs. Hazeltine was a great beauty, very very lovely woman, beautiful too. He built that wall up that stone wall and then there was another house right at the foot where the elderly people Newman I think there name was. They lived there for years, a little wooden house. Interviewer: Would that be on Barkley? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, the foot of Barkley Street and John Street. Small,white house. Interviewer: You remember you spoke of Phil Fuller. Now he lived across… Mr. Shelby: Well, Phil Fuller lived across the street from us in a good size house on this way and the whole hold men came and galloped on the corner. Several families there, then the T.J. O’Brien house. Interviewer: Yeah, on the other side of the corner. �36 Mr. Shelby: Yeah on that side. Then the alley, and then the corner was John Lawrence, the lawyer. The house was still there with a bay window. I know of several people that have occupied that corner house on the, during the past 40 years. Woman: The family who was in the women’s city club they were doing so well? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: The family? Mr. Shelby: No, the women’s city club belongs, who was that? Interviewer: Wasn’t it the Sweet family? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yes. Woman: You would play in the attic with that peep hole? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, the peep hole. We used to play up in that. I did I used to play up there, you know build with building blocks and Mitchell was his nephew or grandson. He used to play up on that tower. Interviewer: Was his name Mitchell Sweet? Mr. Shelby: No, Mitchell was his grandson of the owner of it. Interviewer: Now, you must have known Thomas O’Brien well. Mr. Shelby: Oh, didn’t know anyone else better. He was the general counsel of the GR and I. Interviewer: Oh yeah. Mr. Shelby: Thomas C. O’Brien. And Catherine married a very old some old Englishman who lived inside the Orient for awhile. And Howard was and Howard and my brother Walter were great friends. Walter, Howard O’Brien and my brother Walter just my brother ahead of me, they were great friends. Interviewer: Didn’t Catherine marry… Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Didn’t Catherine marry Sir Henry Kilton? I think that was his name. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, she married very well to a very prominent person. She was a lovely woman, Catherine. Interviewer: Can you tell me something about the Hope family. �37 Mr. Shelby: Well Hope wasn’t very popular with anybody. He was a very exclusive type of a person that thought a great deal of himself and I don’t recall him being particularly prominent or notable. He came from Kentucky, he was from Kentucky. He was a bit exclusive in his friendships and his manner of living and he was pretty well conceived by bushes over there. Otherwise I don’t think he was very well liked, he was kind of pompous and we thought he was not, well not worth all the agilation. Interviewer: But he was president of the country club for many years. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yes. But he wasn’t a stockholder as we were. Interviewer: He wasn’t? Mr. Shelby: The O’Brien family and ourselves were the only stockholders. Interviewer: Oh really? Mr. Shelby: I didn’t get a penny for it, not a penny. And it was awfully extravagant and he drove it into debt, you know. Interviewer: What about Mrs. Hope? Was she…? Mr. Shelby: Mrs. Hope was very lovely but she had a lot of children and then Moosey was the name of one. I don’t know but they seemed to have a lot of 5 or 6 children there. But they lived by themselves and they weren’t friendly, not unfriendly, but they were just exclusive. They weren’t mixers. Interviewer: Well he was president for over 30 years at that club. You wonder how a man could be a president for so long. Mr. Shelby: Yeah I know. Well he had a good many dinners out there that I know. I don’t know I just have a feeling, just a little feeling I think between Mr. O’Brien and my father against Mr. Hope. What it was I don’t know. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: But socially why he was quite acceptable but exclusive. J.C. Hope. Interviewer: You mentioned the Earl family earlier. Mr. Shelby: The what? Interviewer: The Earl family. Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah. Interviewer: Tell me about the Earls. �38 Mr. Shelby: Well the, well I only got to know the Edward Earl who was and Fred was my brother Walter’s age. And Fred Earl had a big bob, about 30 feet long that we used to slide down hill on. And Mr. Earl was a quite type of man, a lawyer and they had proctor duty on their front porch in the summer time you could see them sitting there you know. Interviewer: That was Fountain and Lafayette? Mr. Shelby: Fountain and Lafayette yeah. Interviewer: Where the Davenport men’s dorm is? Mr. Shelby: Yeah Interviewer: Yeah I think it is now. Mr. Shelby: I I don’t know who is responsible for selling that. Interviewer: I don’t know either. Mr. Shelby: I said, I’m sorry that that residence is gone myself. Interviewer: It is a beautiful home. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, it’s spacious too you know. You know they had a stable in the rear of their lot. Interviewer: I called on Mrs. Knappen, Clara Knappen. Do you remember the Knappens? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, they lived right in the middle of the block. A Crosby home I think. Interviewer: Yes, mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: Yes, Mrs. Knappen, very well. Interviewer: Her husband was an attorney I believe. Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Her husband was an attorney. Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right. Oh yes, I remember them. Stuart Knappen, wasn’t it? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: Jim Crosby lived in that too and Raymond he was a weird boy. He used to walk in a very mincey way. I can see him now, I think people made funny of him of sort of a feminine, because he would walk… �39 Interviewer: Don’t trip over there. (muffled laughter) Mr. Shelby: He wasn’t a real man you know; he was a Yale man too. Woman: Well you knew Ralph Bolton. Was that his name? He was a Yale man. Interviewer: Yeah we, what about Ralph Bolton? Did you know Ralph? Mr. Shelby: Well Ralph was the kind of a boy odd man that was trying to make him, make him refine him a bit. He was simply a good German, son of a German successful merchandiser. He was sent to Yale. He was kind of an odd man. I didn’t think he belonged to anything, any particular mark. He was just simply was sent there, that was all. He wouldn’t be the type that anybody would take up with, that he would be very chummy with, you know? He wasn’t attractive enough, I would say. He came in to see me quite a number of times just to do it. But I don’t know, he was just Ralph boy that was all. I don’t, I kind of amused the people that make so much of that house architecturally I don’t think there is anything outstanding in it. It’s just a very sizeable, a good size American architectural home you know. I don’t think it has any merits architecturally. I wouldn’t say that it has, but they made it into a museum now didn’t they? Interviewer: Yes, yes. Mr. Shelby: Yeah well, let them do it then if that gives them any pleasure. Women: I think it’s a good idea. Mr. Shelby: I don’t know how they characterize it, as a typical Eng-, American home. Well built, well designed, but I don’t know that it has any charm to it. I never felt like it had. I think the house that if you watchyamacallit, go around the corner, oh what’s his name? Interviewer: Edward Low? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Edward Low? Mr. Shelby: Not Edward. Some, it was right at the corner, at the very head of the street, it was the best looking house. Interviewer: Now which house was that? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Which house are we talking about? Mr. Shelby: Well on the corner of, is that College Avenue? �40 Woman: College and Washington? Mr. Shelby: Washington Street? Interviewer: Yes… Mr. Shelby: Yeah, right at the corner there. Is that, they had a fire there once. Their horses were burned up. Interviewer: Now which house? Is this the house that Henry Idema lived at later? Woman: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Possibly. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I guess so. Interviewer: If you go up the street it’s on the right. Mr. Shelby: It did, yes. Interviewer: Yellow brick? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Right on the corner. Interviewer: That house I think was built by Edward, by Edward Low. Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right. Than who was at the top of the hill, the big tall house? Woman: The Waters? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: The Water’s house? Mr. Shelby: No, not the Waters. Woman: The Thistle house? Mr. Shelby: Thistle was it? Yeah. Edward(?) Thistle? Interviewer: Yeah. �41 Woman: That was a pretty house. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: Well, what do you think? Is it, what do you think is going to become of us with the economy going the way it is? Mr. Shelby: You mean the present state of the United States? Interviewer: Do you think we will ever pull out of it? Mr. Shelby: God, I don’t like making any predictions. Huh, as the President said last night we are in mull of a hess didn’t he? Something to the effect of that? Interviewer: I would say so, yes. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I don’t know where it all commends to, and I don’t know how we are going to stop it. We have ample occasions all over the globe for one thing. I think we should stop underwriting events and I think we ought to, bring us into, closer into ourselves and stop spreading around the world. As big as we are, as rich we are, and as successful as we are, we are not big enough for that task. I think we’ve over, over we’ve overreached the mark. With our associations and we have taken on too big of a load. Interviewer: Now that you have lived in Grand Rapids 96 years what, do you think you chose a good place to be born? Mr. Shelby: Was it a good place to be born? Interviewer: Do you think you chose a good place to be born? Mr. Shelby: Well a very comfortable place, but I wouldn’t, not too inspiring. It hasn’t any features that would give me any thrill. Not any geographical features, like San Francisco, or well even like Chicago on the lake front. It’s just a very comfortable pleasant little town that’s all. Very Dutchy, too Dutchy to suit me…don’t say that though. That, Interviewer: It’s alright. Mr. Shelby: They won’t like it. I uh… Interviewer: Well you must have known Arthur Vanderburg. Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: You must have known Arthur Vanderburg. Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. �42 Interviewer: He was Dutch. Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Became very important. Mr. Shelby: He was, yes a little bit too much conceited I think. He was the top of a gang of men; probably tell them how to do the work. You know? That sort of thing. That was his, I think that was a characteristic of him, don’t you think, you know? He was, it was just an ordinary, it was well, I don’t know what streak of man that would be. If I saw a gang of men, uh 15 or 20 men doing a job on a hole, it wouldn’t be the last thing in the world that I would try and stop and tell them how to do to do the job better than they’re doing it. But that would be, he was a politician. He would draw attention to himself. I think that type of man, isn’t, is not very deep. He was too spectacular, and showy. Let me show you how to do that thing. That type, don’t you know? No don’t do it that way, is that the way to do it? He was that type of person. The ordinary conservative person wouldn’t just wouldn’t do that. He wouldn’t expose himself maybe to ridicule. They wouldn’t wouldn’t mix up with such a situation. They wouldn’t and that’s a perfectly natural thing. If there’s a gang of men that are cleaning up out of there, leave them alone. They are doing the job alright. There’s no reason why I should give them any directions how to do that. I’m not a politician I’m not after the attention. So I wouldn’t be the person to stop and tell them how to do the job. I wouldn’t, it would be the last thing in the world that I would do. I think he was, I think he was probably the type of man that wore external, that would keep themselves prominent and then the in what’s going on in the role play. But there were such demonstrations of his ability to direct others on how to do things. I don’t know how you would estimate him. Interviewer: Now you had a rather important political figure in your own family. Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: A long time ago, I believe it was your great-grandfather Cass’ brother. A Louis Cass? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. Well I can’t tell you much about him except I know that he was, and must have been an extremely capable man, for his time. For the first place I think he had considerable ownership of land in Detroit. That I am not sure of, don’t you know. But he was a man that had outstanding qualities of his make up or he wouldn’t have reached the prominent stage that he did. Interviewer: Did your family ever talk about him, or your father or grandfather speak of him, or? Mr. Shelby: I don’t remember, recall any specific discussion about him. No, I don’t think so. Interviewer: I think he was the first territorial governor. Mr. Shelby: Huh? �43 Interviewer: He was the first territorial governor. Mr. Shelby: Well I think that they just accept him and know that he was capable and the proper man to be in that situation. He had the qualities of leadership. But I don’t recall that we indulged in any praise of him or anything of that nature, or did any boasting about our relationship. Woman: That he was an explorer, he liked exploring. Interviewer: Well he came to Grand Rapids when he was quite elderly; I was reading about him the other day. He came here in 1855 and there was a big turnout, a big crowd. And that reminds me, when we were sitting here before I turned on the equipment. Tell me, tell us again about the torchlight parade that used to figure in the political life. Mr. Shelby: Oh, well it was a very noisy spectacular demonstrations that paraded through the streets of the resident centrally the calling out of the candidates to their front porch to announce what they stood for. And to advocate that they elect elect them. There was the crowd that gradually approved of their presence and made a big fuss about them when they came out and addressed the crowd. Then they came out and addressed the crowd and they told them what a good Republican he was or what a good Democrat he was and how they ought to surely choose them don’t you know. Interviewer: Would this be a big crowd of people? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, maybe 3 or 4 hundred. Yeah. Interviewer: And where did they stop? Who did they stop to see? Mr. Shelby: Oh they would stop as soon as they got out of breath. Interviewer: No I mean what houses did they stop at? Mr. Shelby: Oh, I remember them more particularly the Fountain Street. That Fuel was very prominent for years at that time. Interviewer: Mr.Martin, Mr. Edwin F. Fuel Mr. Shelby: Fuel, yeah. And from there they came to our house and then they went down to the congressman’s house. They would carry banners over their shoulders and torch lights. Interviewer: Do you think the Congressman’s name was Ford? Mr. Shelby: Ford, Ford, M. Ace. Ford. Ford, Ford, M. Ace. Ford. Yeah, that’s right. Woman: Was Ford a good politician? Mr. Shelby: Right down about where the Michinmckormicks? �44 Interviewer: I see right in there. Mr. Shelby: He was the congressman. Well they felt pretty keenly about it and they Doanlab Doanlab, Charles B. Doanlab. That was another one, I have forgotten what position he was after or what he was. But there was a big interest in politics then. The town was smaller, you know. They didn’t spread from Fairview to way up out 34th street it was very compact you know. Hall Street was our and you were out in the country, when you got to Hall Street. It was miles, it was miles away! That’s where the first circus came. You know, before they had their parade. And Sweet Street was I don’t remember there being more to Grand Rapids at that time. Then you were getting into toward North Park. That would be where the DMN Depot would’ve been don’t you know. Interviewer: Well we have covered quite a few topics, is there something you would like to add? Mr. Shelby: Well you mean as for the p- I think it I have resented the outlying shopping centers. Interviewer: You don’t like those. Mr. Shelby: I think they ruin Grand Rapids, from downtown. I, I don’t think downtown is the sand stool so cold is sunken just 2 blocks, just 2 or 3 blocks. It will never come back. And these other things are vast sums of money have been invested by realtors 8 or 10, 15 miles out and they what do they call those things? Woman: Plazas, the Plazas. Interviewer: The malls, and plazas Woman: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Malls, you know, and well definitely they are robbing downtown. Interviewer: Oh yeah. Mr. Shelby: A tremendous purchasing power, besides the time and effort to get there. I think it’s, I just don’t like it to tell you the to be perfectly plain truth, I don’t like it. I’d rather have it like it was. Interviewer: Grand Rapids had good stores when you when you were younger? Mr. Shelby: Yes. And I still, we had the new dish light___ none of the ones we still got. Yes, we had a good tailor store, a good tailoring shop, yes. Interviewer: Did you buy ready made clothes or tailored clothes in those days? Mr. Shelby: Oh I did both, depending on my finances. �45 Interviewer: Who was your tailor when your finances were in good shape? Mr. Shelby: Oh, who was it? Why, he’s still there, in his name is still in that store… Woman: Lloyd? Interviewer: Lloyd? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer/Woman: Lloyd? Mr. Shelby: Who? Woman: Ll-Lloyd. Lloyd. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, Lloyd. Yeah, he was my tailor. Interviewer: Oh yes. Woman: …he never worried much about clothes in fact. Mr. Shelby: I know my father had clothing made by Berkley R. Merlan in New York City. He was. Interviewer: Berkely R. Merlan. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, he, he was, at that time 100 dollars was some money. And Father had thse 100 dollar suits built just for him. He had the money and the, a place to appear well groomed. So he had these Me- Merlan suits built for him. So this has happened to Grand Rapids, we’ve got 2 shopping centers Plainfield Avenue was a section and I think that they take too much time and effort, too much money away from the town. I don’t approve of them, so there you go. That’s just my own feelings. Interviewer: Ok. Alright. Woman: He misses the train too, and a closer train station. Mr. Shelby: What? I don’t think there is any very attractive, I think its lonesome and unattractive place that they have artificially set up those costly places, and they keep telling you to go out and get something that you can’t get downtown. Interviewer: You got any plans for the future? Mr. Shelby: Hmm? Interviewer: Do you have any plans for the future? �46 Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t know how I could have much future, to the point of years. This time, my plans are to enjoy continuance of the things that I’m fond of: travel, and good books, and enjoyable people. Interviewer: And your I suppose. Mr. Shelby: My what? Interviewer: Your work, right? Mr. Shelby: Well, yes. I am invested in financial work and I like it. I think I know something about it and I think I know a doable way and what to take. But I don’t I am not aggressive enough to purge purge a program on you. Interviewer: Well I think we’ll end…right now. Mr. Shelby: I think that I I was if I have a sufficient contact and experiences with the leading railways, the leading banks, the leading institutions to be able to recommend investments that are safe and sound and of quality and of a high grade. Stick to that and leave the rest alone. I know nothing about speculative wealth, speculation, I’m not a type that would to take any chances, I’m too cautious. I am too much grounded in safety. Interviewer: Well I want to thank you Mr. Shelby for…. Mr. Shelby: I don’t know if I could tell anybody what to do, how they could change, alter or change their lives I think that it depends entirely by their means, the situation, what they are after. What their interested in is what they should do. I’m interested in quite a lot of things, that probably others would not be interested in. That would be in good books, and good companionship, and good quality of life. Of the finer things of life I enjoy, if I had any advice for anybody else. Interviewer: Ok, well we’ll we’ll stop at this point. INDEX B Baker, Billy · 29, 32 Berguin, Mr. · 5 Bolton, Ralph · 40 Central Grammar School · 3 Coit, Dr. Henry · 8 D Dewes, Lewis · 32 Doanlab, Charles B. · 45 C Cass, George W. (Grandfather) · 1, 6, 7, 14, 15 Cass, Louis · 43 �47 E O Earl, Edward · 11, 39 O’Brien Family · 36, 37, 38 F R Ford, Gerald R. (President) · 45 Fountain Street School · 3 Fox, Charles · 5 Fuller, Phil · 32, 36 Reed’s Lake · 12, 13 Reedley, California · 26 Romence, Maude · 30 Rosenthal Family · 6 G S Gage and Benedick’s Dancing School · 11 Gilbert Family · 35 Gold, Al · 22 Greenwalt, Sam · 30, 31 Saint’s Rest Club · 5 Shelby, Bill (Son) · 27, 28 Shelby, Mary Kennedy Cass (Mother) · 1, 6, 17, 18, 20, 21, 28, 33, 34 Shelby, Violet (Sister) · 20 Shelby, William Read (Father) · 1, 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 28, 33, 34, 36, 38, 44, 46 Short, Jim · 31 St. Paul’s School · 7, 16, 19 Sweet Family · 37, 45 H Havenson, Lee · 29, 32, 33 Hazeltine Family · 36 Hope Family · 37, 38 K V Vanderburg · 43 Knappen Family · 39 Kreuger, Iber · 29 M Major Watson (boat) · 14 McKormick, Mr. · 35 Mcmhoffan, John · 29, 30 McNight, Anna · 35 Michigan Iron Works · 15 Miss Reed’s Kindergarten · 2 Mount Chomininee · 27 W Westpoint · 15 Whalen, Henry D. · 6, 14, 15 Whittaker, Harry · 18, 20 Whitworth, Arthur · 32 Widdicombe Family · 3 Y Yale University · 8, 9, 16, 18, 40 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e0bab304adc7229ca740bfa5fa377400.mp3 6f417cde375feb3deb9b3cd819c74b66 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_46Shelby Title A name given to the resource Shelby, George (2 of 2) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shelby, George Description An account of the resource George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on December 5, 1878. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b06136ab699d2b0005085c60576706fd.pdf 41c065e2b2ea21ce5489037663aff765 PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Roger  Sheppard   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  10/4/2016   Runtime:  01:39:03         Biography  and  Description   Oral  history  of  Roger  Sheppard,  interviewed  by  Jose  “Cha-­‐Cha”  Jimenez  on  October  04,  2016  about  the   Young  Lords  in  Lincoln  Park.   Roger  is  a  twin  brother  and  they  were  born  August  8,  1941.  His  mother  came  from  Holland  and  his   father  from  Ireland.  He  was  raised  Baptist  but  baptized  in  the  Christian  Reform  Church.  In  1960,  he   joined  the  Young  Socialist  Alliance  working  to  fight  against  segregation,  by  teaching  and  organizing   White  college  students.  While  young  he  and  his  brother  created  their  own  business  by  buying   newspapers  for  a  nickel  and  then  selling  them  for  six  cents.  They  lived  in  what  was  then  suburban,   Sun  Down  Towns  which  he  said  meant  that  if  you  were  Black  or  Latino,  you  could  not  be  seen  in  the   town  after  dark.   �Roger  has  worked  for  the  IBEW  or  International  Brotherhood  of  Electrical  Engineers  for  over  50   years.  In  1963  he  recalls  marching  with  Martin  Luther  King  in  Chicago  where  he  says  they  chanted,   “to  end  Jim  Crow  Daley  has  got  to  go.”  He  also  met  and  spoke  with  Malcolm  X  and  remembers   Stokeley  Carmichael  on  the  same  stage  with  Bernadette  Devlin  of  Ireland.  He  worked  alongside   SNCC  or  Student  Non–Violent  Coordinating  Committee.  In  1969  he  was  introduced  to  Cha-­‐Cha   Jimenez  by  Puerto  Rico  MPI  leader,  Richard  Levins  just  before  the  police  arrested  Jimenez  and   recalls  how  the  Young  Lords  raised  $2500  on  the  spot  to  get  him  bonded  out.  He  said  that  the  Young   Lords  were  about  love  and  caring  and  deadly  serious  about  “consciousness  raising.”  They  had  the   people  with  them.  Roger  himself  was  harassed  and  arrested  many  times  for  protests.  He  is  well   read  and  proactive  in  international  struggle.             �Transcript JOSÉ JIMÉNEZ: Roger, if you can give me your name, what you did, your date of birth, and where you were born. ROGER SHEPPARD: My twin brother and I were born in August 8, 1941. I was born first. JJ: Alright. That’s good. Let me -- okay, so, if you can give me your name, your date of birth, how many people in your family or siblings, and then -- RS: Right. JJ: Okay. RS: My father was born in February 15th along with his twin brother in -- February 15, 1907. My mother -- JJ: And if you can mention her first name. RS: Her name is Elizabeth Hoedemaker. JJ: And your father? RS: My father is Ford Sheppard. [00:01:00] My mother came from Holland. My father’s people came from Ireland in 1683 because they fought the king, which is known as the Cavaliers. And they were part of the Levellers and the Roundheads. And they were rewarded with a grant. The irony is the Ford brother’s came over on William Penn’s grant the same year that Roger Williams died when he said the king should have no power to grant any land because it was occupied by the Native Americans. My mother was born March 27, 1911. And my older brother was born October 16, 1937. Four years later, my twin 1 �brother Roland and I, Roger Sheppard, was born August 8, 1941. [00:02:00] And we share a common birthday, three Leos, with Cha Cha Jiménez, Roland Sheppard, and Roger Sheppard. That’s a trinity of Leos, all good people and all dedicated to the struggle. JJ: And what do you remember during that time in the -- RS: -- I remember me and my -- JJ: -- in Lincoln Park -- RS: -- twin brother were sparring partners for 18 years. He was always a little heavier than me, so I had to be a little quicker to get into his mind and just self-defense. And I learned to be a fighter, not just as a fight fighter, but as a fighter for justice and truth early on [00:03:00] from the example of my father and mother because they wanted to be good Christians, period. And they were Franklin Roosevelt Democrats. We all later, in 1960, all attended the founding convention of the Young Socialists Alliance, my older brother, Barry, my twin brother, who was not let into the convention because he was dressed well, because there were some beatniks at that time. That’s what they were called, not hippies. It is 1960, April 16th, and we had just finished supporting the Woolworth sit-ins. So, our legacy goes back before the sit-ins, in my case, my activity from February 1, 1960 in the support of the historically white colleges [00:04:00] like Brandeis, Harvard, MIT, Boston College, Boston University, supporting hundreds of students to close down Woolworths. Now, you wouldn’t think it was the radicals, the socialists -the Democratic socialists said it was not a moral question to close them down. They thought we shouldn’t punish the northern Woolworths because they were 2 �not segregationists. We said we had to hit it where it hurts and join all the Black students who were getting beat in the South for just sitting down and asking to be served, that we had to close Woolworths down. And we closed Woolworths down in Roxbury, Massachusetts two weeks after [00:05:00] the sit-ins in Greensboro, North Carolina. When I said “we,” I mean my older brother, me, Peter Camejo, and many others. Peter Camejo later ran with Nader in 2004 for vice president of this country. JJ: Ralph Nader? RS: Yes, Ralph Nader. Peter came from Venezuela, and he used to call himself Peter Camejo. And he was on the yacht racing team for Venezuela in 1960. Comes from a bourgeois background and grew up in a petty bourgeois background in Great Neck, Long Island. As the consonance of the Latino movement developed, he started calling himself Pedro Miguel Camejo. JJ: And what year was this? RS: I would say in the late ’60s. But he was Peter [00:06:00] to us, and he was a magnificent speaker. Later I went to school at Brown. I flunked out of Brown with a 0.25 average. That’s hard to do because it means I got on D and three Es. I was the only engineering student at Brown -- I wanted to be an architect -- who had physiology instead of physics. But I had caught the whiff of the movement. Luckily for me, I moved out to Boston with Peter and my older brother, Barry, right when the movement struck. And I was fortunate to have, as a teacher, Larry Patrick Trainor, who was a printmaker and a socialist from the ’30s. His father organized the police strike in 1919. [00:07:00] He was later asked to be one of 3 �Leon Trotsky’s guards in Mexico, and his wife, Gusty was on the way to being a cook when Trotsky was killed by Stalin’s agent in 1940. Anyway, he was my teacher as well as Farrell Dobbs who told me, when I met him, he was the organizer of the Teamsters in Minneapolis general strike in 1934. He asked me to just call him “Farrell.” I said, “Yes, Mr. Dobbs,” because I was always taught to respect my elders. But Farrell Dobbs was an inspiration as well as Ray Sparrow. Ray Sparrow and James P. Cannon went back to the IWW and the Socialist Party and the founding of the Communist Party after the Russian Revolution. They were the old-timers in my group. I realize I’m an old-timer now because I’m talking about what [00:08:00] would be, to me, 1906 from 1969. I learned a lot from everybody in the mass movement, and the early ’60s were popping because people had enough. Now, I might remind you that Emmett Till was my age when he was lynched in 1955. He was 14 years old. He would be my age now, 72, had he survived. But Emmett Till’s death set off a new consciousness in the Negro -- at that time called the Negro -- movement. And the Montgomery bus boycott soon followed. And they organized so well with E.D. Nixon organizing, Rosa Parks, [00:09:00] and a young preacher named Martin Luther King, Jr. for a year. And they were successful because the Korean War vets kept the transportation moving from 1955, December, to 1956. JJ: And you were doing what at that time? RS: At that time, I was in high school but feeling very inspired about the movement. I didn’t realize you had to go something beside be inspired at that time. I thought you declare yourself to be socialist like you would declare yourself to be a 4 �Unitarian or a Christian. I was raised as a Baptist, but I was baptized in the Dutch Reform Church, to my chagrin, which was the church of apartheid [00:10:00] later. But both of my grandparents took their kids out of -- my father and mother -- out of church when the KKK visited both churches in north Jersey and south Jersey. JJ: Okay, but are your parents and your neighbors and your friends -- are they talking socialism? RS: No. MY father felt like he was a chicken that hatched ducks. But he was very sympathetic to what we were doing in the civil rights movement and in the struggle to defend the Cuban Revolution, which I supported in 1959 as a newsboy because Batista was supported by the United States. And I knew then the difference between the colonization of Puerto Rico [00:11:00] and the socalled independence of Cuba. JJ: So, you were a newsboy, you said? RS: Yeah, so was my twin brother, so was my older brother. JJ: What does that mean? RS: That means we were delivering papers. We built our own business. We sold the nickel paper for six cents, and that’s how we made money in high school. JJ: This was where, in Boston? RS: Livingston, New Jersey, an all-white town. I didn’t know what I later understood, that these white suburbs had unwritten laws and they’re called sundown towns where Latinos or Blacks were often questioned if it was night time and they were walking in the town or driving through the town of what was their business in the 5 �town. There’s a good book called Sundown Towns. It was [00:12:00] written by a man who wrote Lies My Teacher Taught Me. And you should go and look at that book. Malcolm X taught me that the best way to keep a secret is put it in a book. JJ: Okay. Now, you said Malcolm X taught you from reading. But I mean, did you also have experiences -- RS: -- Yes -- JJ: -- or did someone that you know have experiences directly with Malcolm X? RS: Yes. I met Malcolm X first at Brown University when I was a student at Rhode Island School of Design on May 11th, my wife-to-be’s birthday, when he spoke at Brown University and, for the first time I was aware of, he explained there was a difference between the house Negro and the field hand. JJ: When you were there? RS: When I was there. JJ: He spoke then? RS: I was almost arrested there. [00:13:00] JJ: And how did you understand that to be? RS: I understood that to be some -- they weren’t called Blacks at the time -- some Negroes identified more with their master. As Malcolm explained, they so identified with the master, they’d say, “We sick, Master?” And when their house was on fire, they’d say, “Our house in on fire,” when the field hands would pray for a strong wind. So, that was 1961. JJ: But you were not African American at that time. 6 �RS: No, I’m just getting darker. I don’t know. JJ: (laughs) RS: Last time I was arrested, I was called a Hispanic male by the police. JJ: Right. RS: And I can’t speak a word of Spanish. JJ: So, how did you feel then? RS: I identified on the ricochet of the injustice that is they hit the Blacks and the Latinos. And I stood for [00:14:00] justice, and I [had written?] carefully but in action of the students. And they set a wildfire all over America, north and south. Malcolm says the South was down south and up south, south of the Canadian border. I and my wife had to -- 1962, Linda Thompson married me. Went to Baltimore, Maryland at the Maryland Institute of Art where I walked into a fellowship of sculpture. That meant I, as an undergraduate, went to a graduate degree program. I didn’t get a graduate degree, but I had my own studio, and I could participate in the southern movement, which is why I moved from Providence down to Baltimore, which is the up south now of south, [00:15:00] if you understand what I mean. JJ: Okay, so you’re in the southern movement. What is that? RS: It’s interesting. Baltimore, at that time, had white only, colored -- whatever color that was -- and men and women jobs listed, colored apartments, white apartment. And the building trades and the union movement turned their backs on the Blacks and Latinos. But I learned in the movement in real life, and I had the best teachers in the country, not only Malcolm X but Gloria Richardson in 7 �Cambridge, Maryland. My wife and I, with 30 others, were accused of assaulting a cop who said, “Halt,” when we were marching to jail against the unjust arrest of our leaders. JJ: So, you went to [00:16:00] jail? RS: Oh, several times. I was arrested for inciting a riot outside of a penitentiary built before the Civil War. I was outside the penitentiary. I won that case, didn’t I? What is my batting average? I used to say a thousand. But I’ve been arrested many times. I was arrested at least from that penitentiary where we fought all the jails in Baltimore to crack the theater discrimination right next to the Morgan State College, a predominantly Black school at that time, in ’63, I think in February 28th. You can Google it and look it up, very simple. Obama says today we’re having a discussion on classification but everything’s classified. I say we should have that discussion, but everything I say can be verified. You can Google it. [00:17:00] Now, I re-met Malcolm after there was a big pressure, when ’63 was hot. The press didn’t call the bombing of A.D. King, Martin Luther King’s brother - his house was demolished and Martin Luther King’s office was blown apart. And women and children had dogs sicced on them and were practically blown away with water hoses. That was in spring campaign of Birmingham. JJ: Did you see any other? RS: I didn’t see Birmingham, but I saw the Eastern Shore of Maryland, which is like the deep South. In Cambridge, Maryland, there are only 15,000 population in total, and Race Street cut right through the town. [00:18:00] And there was martial law in Cambridge, Maryland. And Gloria Richardson, who later became a 8 �friend of Malcolm’s, was a leader of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. We were all charged with assault, I told you before, 30 of us socalled assaulting a police officer. Then we were given a deal like kids today are given a deal. Plead guilty to this assault, which is a felony, and they would fine us a penny and suspend it. We said no. The martial law was declared in Cambridge, Maryland because the Black population was getting unruly. That is they were demanding rights. [00:19:00] John F. Kennedy’s brother, Robert Kennedy, put together a package that could be a referendum of rights. Gloria Richardson said then and said it today -- she’s 91 years old and lives in New York -- that there can be no voting on inherent rights. You can’t vote on rights. For this, she was opposed by every major civil rights leader because she was told to accept the referendum and accept that deal. Well, let me go back to ’63. There was such heat in the country at that time that Malcolm supporters and Martin Luther King supporters got together in Detroit on June 23rd, didn’t they? And they had a march of 125,000, 99.9 percent Black [00:20:00] and practically a hundred percent working people. That was June 23, 1963, 20 years after the race riots in Detroit of 1943. Google it. Look it up. Martin Luther King gave his first “I Have a Dream” speech here in Detroit that became a cry throughout the country that there should be a march on Washington. By that, they meant Congress. JJ: And you were doing what at that time? RS: I was helping organize that march -- JJ: -- From where, at what time -- 9 �RS: -- from Chicago with the Friends of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Kennedy called up Daley. JJ: How did you get to Chicago? RS: The Young Socialist Alliance was running a summer school. I was heading up a group within -- of 50 young socialists who were predominantly white, [00:21:00] predominantly middle class students, to head an intervention into the civil rights movement. JJ: What does that mean? RS: An intervention means that you participate, learn, and advance the struggle. While I was in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee -- JJ: -- How did you advance the struggle? RS: Very simply. The NAACP who was in Daley’s pocket of his machine called the Freedom March. And the NAACP instructed everybody in Chicago to participate in the march but had no signs against Mayor Daley. But Mayor Daley, being full of himself, blew it. He came in front of the NAACP convention [00:22:00] and calmly announced, “There are no ghettoes in Chicago.” This was a slap in the face to not only Blacks in Chicago and all justice loving people in the world but it was an opening for the Friends of the SNCC to form a contingent in that freedom march, which was led, supposedly, by Mayor Richard Daley. And he marched four hours in the hot sun. And we had a contingent that was applauded all along the march that ended up in a rally at Grant Park. We said, “To end Jim Crow, Daley must go.” We then proceeded to picket, my wife and I went, a couple people from SNCC, one from Mississippi named Lafeyette Surney, [00:23:00] a 10 �couple bus drivers, and a National African American Organization organization, maybe 12 of us. We came with our picket signs, “Daley Must Go.” The NAACP came out and tried to stop us with force. But we were veterans from the struggle in the South, and we just sat down. And the moment we were sitting down and the cops would have been thrown over our heads, 20,000 people stood up and booed Mayor Daley right off the stage. The only thing he could say is, “I think there are some Republicans here.” And then, Dr. Joseph H. Jackson, head of the Baptist Convention, who hated Martin Luther King with a passion and was against a march on Washington -- this is July 4, 1963. Mind you, the [00:24:00] march on Washington was going to be organized yet to be for August 28th, a jobs and justice and freedom march at Washington. The original idea was to assemble at Congress because they were run by the Dixiecrats in the South who ran everything. We were cautioned by the Democrats to go slow. Our slogan was “Freedom Now,” and we were bold. And we were strong. And we had the eyes of the whole world, including Africa, on our side and watching the struggle intently. Joseph H. Jackson, Dr. Joseph H. Jackson got this far out of his chair, and he got booed [00:25:00] too, right off the stage. That’s how hot the consciousness of the Black-led movement was in ’63. But there were many whites also who understood what the unity of the Blacks, as symbolized by Malcolm’s followers and Martin’s followers in Detroit, that unity and demand for freedom now, freedom, justice, and equality at that time was such that it put a wedge in the white community. Mind you, 20 years before there was a riot of white workers against Blacks moving into white so-called housing areas. 11 �[00:26:00] Just 20 years later, there was a massive march in Detroit. There was 20,000 marching in Chicago, and Kennedy said we must do something. So, they created the Big Six, Whitney Young of the Urban League, John Lewis of the SNCC, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, Roy Wilkins of the NAACP, Whitney Young -- I said that already, CORE, Congress of Racial Equality, James Farmer, and -- I’m not sure I got them all. JJ: And where were you? RS: I was driving from Chicago with Lafeyette Surney and Charles Lindy in a car that was donated to the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. But people donated their cars that had clay in the wheel. [00:27:00] And we went through that narrow tunnel in Pittsburgh and our car went from side to side. And this was a dangerous thing to give to the movement. But we held on. And thousands and thousands and thousands, one quarter of a million people assembled, not at Congress, but with the intervention of the Kennedy administration, at the Lincoln Memorial. Gloria Richardson was supposed to speak there, and she would have been the only woman representative. And Bayard Rustin and other march organizers agreed that the microphone should be snatched from her face. They did that largely because they couldn’t control what John Lewis was going to say, [00:28:00] John Lewis of SNCC. So, interestingly, I stayed with SNCC people because we were going to have a meeting after the march on Washington at the Statler Hotel. My roommate -- and I’ll say his name -- Lafeyette Surney from Louisville, Mississippi -- good man -- picked up a girl that night, the night of August 28th. I couldn’t get into my room. I went down to the lobby and Malcolm 12 �X and Jeremiah X walked in. And Malcolm spoke to me for 40 minutes. And he said, “George Washington was a revolutionary in the sense that he knew that bloodshed was necessary for separation from England and independence.” He said that the landless against the landlord in the French Revolution required blood. [00:29:00] And he told me that that night in that 40 minute exchange. And he also said the Russian peasant had to fight for land against the landlord, and it required blood. So, Malcolm said around that time, that if you really understood revolution -- some of these people talking about a revolution would shy away, would turn away because of what it requires, a blood sacrifice. And that goes all the way down to the struggle of Blacks and Latinos here in this country. Puerto Rico became citizens of this country in a so-called free associated state. Cuba had the nominal independence, but that was sufficient [00:30:00] to set the basis for a revolution in that island that inspired me of -JJ: -- How did it inspire you? RS: Because they beat Batista after the Granma was shot up. JJ: But I mean, did you know anything about Cuba? RS: I learned from Cuba in the headlines because prior to Castro taking power, it became clear to most of us that Batista was a bloody dictator. Granma was shot up -- JJ: -- But I mean, to the American public -- RS: -- To the American public -- JJ: -- It became clear that he was a dictator -- 13 �RS: -- clear that he was a dictator. And Castro was supported all over. He spoke before 10,000 at Harvard University stadium, 10,000. It was after Castro spoke to Eisenhower and said that the [00:31:00] sugar lands owned by United Fruit must be run by the workers themselves and agrarian reform, land reform had to be carried out for the revolution. That’s when Eisenhower and then Kennedy, through Allen Dulles -- who by the way, had hundreds of affairs. People say one CIA guy had to leave just recently because of an affair. But something is going on. Before Kennedy was inaugurated, three days before Kennedy was inaugurated, Lumumba was killed. We picketed Kennedy because he’s the one that supplied the mercenaries, army, by the tens and tens of thousands. [00:32:00] JJ: Who is “we”? RS: Those like Maya Angelou, the Nation of Islam, the peace movement, those beginning to be conscious of American African struggles. Lumumba went to the eighth grade but spoke for all of Africa. And his best friend, Mobutu, turned on him, not unlike the turning of John Ali, national secretary to the Nation of Islam, turned on Malcolm and set him up. They did all of this, Kennedy especially did this because they wanted the minerals and the wealth of the Congo. And if you go to the Kennedy Library in Boston today, you’ll see a nice little cabinet of minerals [00:33:00] given to them by Mobutu as it represents and offering, like some conquered peoples did to the pharaohs of ancient Egypt. That is what America is seen by more and more people today. Now, how were our eyes 14 �opened? Kennedy went into Laos, went into Cuba. On April 15th, I got arrested -- I didn’t get arrested -- I was told I couldn’t picket legally. JJ: What town was this? RS: April 15, 1961, in Providence, Rhode Island with Brown students and Rhode Island School of Design [00:34:00] students and a Cuban student and a fighter named [George Obujo?], who was a middle weight contender from Cape Verde. Many people were pro-Cuban at that time. But we said that it should be hands off Cuba. That was April 15th. The cops said we couldn’t picket. I went to look for a lawyer, and a lawyer came down the street, ACLU. God works in mysterious ways. He’s right on time for me. I said, “Do we need a permit to picket the federal offices of the post office?” And he said, “The only time you need a parade permit to picket under the first amendment is when you’re taking animals through town like Barnum & Bailey.” What a circus the cops tried to make. So, I said, “If you back us up, we’ll go right there.” [00:35:00] We went there with about 15 students. The cops grabbed our signs. I admit I held mine a little harder. So, they wrenched them out. And that was on TV and on the front page of the Providence Journal. Cops sometimes acted their own foolish ways, make up their own laws, and get themselves hurt in the process. At that time, the mafia was centered around a man named Patriarca in Providence. And young toughs from Federal Hill in Providence said that students, the protesters, should follow the leaders because they’re going to be our leaders. And they would pick their best man and then I should pick our best man and have a fistfight. And that’s in the [00:36:00] Providence General Article. And that can be retrieved any 15 �time. And that was 1961. But I began to know about the Puerto Rican struggle because the movement for independence was gaining strength among the leadership of Juan Mari Brás. JJ: Okay, did you meet Juan Mari Brás? RS: No. I heard the voices or the cry going through Boricua. There was a chant. I don’t know the Spanish of it. But it says, “Juan Mari for sure, Seguro. A Yankee dally duro. Hit the Yankees hard.” I was very inspired by the Puerto Ricans, on the island and [00:37:00] -- since I grew up in New Jersey, mainly I knew them from New York. I didn’t meet Puerto Ricans in Chicago. JJ: Was there a big movement in New York at that time? RS: There was a recognition that there was a community of Puerto Ricans. And that was reflected in a best -- what do you call it? Not best-selling -- oh, I’m a loss of words. There was a Broadway musical presented called the West Side Story where the gang was the Puerto Ricans -- of course they carried knives -- and the Jets. And in 1960, that was a popular, popular movie. [00:38:00] Later on, as things developed in the Black Panthers and the Young Lords, Bernstein raised funds for both of those organizations. JJ: Who was Bernstein? The producer? RS: The composer and the conductor. And he wrote the music for the West Side Story. So, you know, it was beginning to be in the national consciousness when this story came out, really a Romeo and Juliet story. JJ: So, the left -- 16 �RS: -- Not just the left, everybody applauded that movement. Mind you, this was just after WWII and Korea. JJ: You know the Young Lords got their colors from West Side Story? RS: Excellent. JJ: Black and purple. [00:39:00] (laughs) RS: Excellent. You have to understand when we fought WWII, it wasn’t for freedom and democracy, it was for world rule. And Korea wasn’t fought for the world democracy because we had a dictator named Syngman Rhee doing our dirty work in South Korea. Malcolm alluded -- JJ: -- What dirty work? What do you mean? RS: They were killing their own Korean brothers at the behest of the United States who wanted to put pressure on the Chinese Revolution. You know there was a worldwide anti-colonial revolt after WWII. [00:40:00] Ghana, led by Nkrumah, came out of the imperialist British army and demanded freedom for Africa. That was in the late ’50s. And spirit has a way of being contagious. JJ: How are you familiarizing yourself with all these African struggles? RS: Well, we had a -- JJ: -- Why are you familiarizing yourself with that? RS: They were calling the Mau Mau, who were the freedom fighters of Kenya, terrorists. And yet, we were murdering freedom fighters in the Congo. We were murdering freedom fighters in South Africa. United States -- I said “we.” The United States government and those who operate the government [00:41:00] in secrecy were murdering freedom lovers in Angola. 17 �JJ: So, this is coming out in the -- RS: -- Early ’60s -- JJ: -- in the tabloids? How are you -- RS: -- How did we know about it? JJ: Or just in the news? You were getting it from the news. RS: We hear it from the news and also in SNCC. JJ: How did you hear about it in SNCC. RS: Through songs. JJ: What kind of songs? RS: Well, you know the word “uhuru” is a Swahili word, one of the languages spoken in -- excuse me. I have to get water from time to time. JJ: So, they’re using Swahili words in SNCC? RS: Uhuru, adelante, advance. JJ: Right. RS: This is in the early ’60s. The civil rights cauldron impacted everybody here and around the world. We used to go down to what we called freedom rallies in between Washington and Baltimore. Stokely Carmichael was in Howard. JJ: Who’s “we?” Were you part of that? RS: I was part of a group called the Civic Interest Group. That’s a SNCC affiliate from Morgan State College. National -- NAG -- Action Group was let by Stokely Carmichael, Stanley Wise, and Cortland Cox. JJ: So, were you in contact with Stokely -- 18 �RS: We were in contact with them in ’62. We used to go down the Route 40, and they’d say, “We don’t serve colored people here.” Three of us would go in at a time. This is ’62, two years after the sit-ins started. [00:43:00] They’d say, “We don’t serve colored people.” We’d say, “We don’t eat colored people. But we’d like to get served. We don’t eat them ourselves.” The police officers would take their nightsticks and make them in day sticks and bang the seats that we were on and said, “Move.” JJ: They did that to you? RS: They didn’t hit me. They hit the seat. “Move or you’ll be arrested for criminal trespass.” That was the law of the land even after Brown v Plessy [sic] and the Board of Education said segregation was illegal. But proceed at all deliberate speed. The Ku Klux Klan wore two outfits at that time. [00:44:00] The white hoods that we saw in 1918, parading 100,000 strong in Washington and in Indianapolis and throughout America and the uniform of the police. Remember, Mississippi would fly that Confederate flag. Mind you, the Confederacy was in rebellion against the United States. And there’s a large monument to the veterans that fought the great rebellion in Jamaica Plain, where you, Cha Cha, spent some time. That was a Latino area in the ’60s before it got gentrified. You could buy a house for $11,000, a mansion, [00:45:00] and the whites grabbed them up. You could own property in those times. Now today, they’re struggling for everything to have a roof over their heads, but they own no property. They have no assets. I tell my construction workers, the only asset you have is the ass that you’re sitting on. We don’t have assets but we have ass sits, and we 19 �can’t sit around much longer. But let’s go back to the officer who said we’re going to have criminal trespass. We’d say, “You have to read the trespass act first.” So, the waiter would sit there saying, “Whence forth the party of the (inaudible) known henceforth as the landlord and the party of the second forth, blah, blah, blah, blah,” [00:46:00] under great tension. Then we would decide. Are we going to get arrested, or are we going to step out and another team of three come in? We would do that all day, every Saturday, and not be served at all. So, we’d bring our lunch with us. We knew how to survive, but we did it in style. And at night, we could hear Ray Charles and the Raelettes, didn’t we? And they’d have [armory?] with Ray Charles and the Raelettes, and you could bring your own food and your own drink. And we’d have a party, and we’d raise funds for the movement. We didn’t organize the party. Ray Charles and the Raelettes organized the party or his producer. This is 1962. We had great parties like the time -JJ: -- So, Ray Charles was supporting [00:47:00] the movement at -- RS: -- Oh, many, many -- Charles Mingus was supporting the movement. They were afraid to let him out. He says, “I’ll sit in.” Let’s be careful, be careful because we had all kinds of people in the movement. Some people would turn on the power and off the power of the buses, just by being church leaders, and other people from the church would act like Christians or Jews or Islam. People don’t understand. That stamp that honors Malcolm X honors the only Muslim so honored in the postal service. They make a disconnect. There’s a billion Catholics in this world and there’s over a billion Muslims. [00:48:00] We learn 20 �every rotten filthy murderous escapade this government was involved in when a half a million so-called communist peasants were killed in Indonesia, Kennedy’s successor -- Joseph -- what’s the cracker from Texas’s name? Lyndon Johnson said that’s the way we should handle Vietnam, a half a million dead in ’65. We had a half a million troops -- not we. I say “we” interchangeably. The United States positioned men, [00:48:00] drafted them, and put them in Vietnam. Sixtyeight thousand didn’t come home, one of them my cousins, Jack Sheppard, didn’t come home, killed around the time I met Cha Cha, just that time. I’ll get to that. Anyway, if they shoot the peasant now in Indonesia, they’ll call them Muslims. It’s called a bait and switch. But I’ll move forward. In ’68 -- was a hot year. JJ: So, where were you in ’68? I mean, where was your family? Where were you at? RS: In ’68 -- my eldest son was born in ’64. JJ: What’s his first name? RS: His name is Daniel Ford Sheppard. Daniel means the “footman of all [00:50:00] prophesy.” I named him after a man that I met in school who was the janitor from Ireland who told me how they would pop the Brits in the lorries coming to do dirty work in the struggle for freedom in Ireland in the early ’20s. Daniel Riley was a big man. JJ: So, you were very nationalistic in terms of Ireland, your country? RS: I learned about the struggle of Ireland through the socialist movement. James Connolly, who went to his death in the Easter Rebellion in 1916, was a socialist. 21 �That was a dirty word in the ’50s. It’s a proud word now. Capitalism is becoming a dirty word. Things are getting reversed. [00:51:00] However, Stokely and Bernadette Devlin went on tours in the ’60s. Bernadette Devlin was the young woman represented Northern Ireland in the British Parliament. She wore mini dresses. She was 19. Later, she was shot up as the wife of McAliskey, Bernadette Devlin McAliskey. But she spoke in Boston with Stokely Carmichael. Stokely was an internationalist. Bernadette was an internationalist. The Puerto Ricans movement taught me that they were internationalists. They had to think globally and act locally, and that’s what the Young Lords were doing all the time. All the time. I’ll fast forward to May 7th because I’ve been involved in everything [00:52:00] from 1960 until now. In 1970 -- prior to 1970, me arriving to Chicago in January, there was a shooting that was set up by the FBI and the police department under Daley, of Fred Hampton and Mark Clark on December -- I think it was the third. JJ: Fourth. RS: Fourth, somewhere around there, December 4, 1969. I met Cha Cha with the leader of the NPI who was teaching at the University of Chicago after he got kicked out of the University of Puerto Rico, a man who had his distinguished scholarly career and was independentista and a socialist at that time. JJ: Who was that? RS: Dr. Richard Levins who’s now in his eighties. He went to Cuba [00:53:00] to meet with Castro. Through my wonderful intercession, intervention of Adolfo Rodriguez in Boston from the NPI, I learned they were pro-Cuba, pro-liberty, 22 �Libertad, and pro self-determination for Cuba, for Puerto Rico, for the whole world, and especially Puerto Ricans here. Now, a thing developed in the anti-war movement. There was a successful campaign against the draft where they said, “No blood tax without representation in Puerto Rico.” They couldn’t touch anybody in Puerto Rico for that draft. But Puerto Ricans over here could be touched. They were touched [00:54:00] severely. Meanwhile, what were the unions doing? Well, there were contradictory forces going on in the unions, but the unions weren’t acting in defense of all workers, especially the most oppressed. You know there was only three unions that supported the march on Washington in ’63? That’s the UAW, 1199, and -- I forget the third. But UAW was strong because Detroit was so strong because -- Motor City. There’s a song by -- this is an aside -- there’s a song by Gregory Porter who just won a Grammy called “Sixties what? sixties Who? The Motor City’s burning. You don’t need sunlight. You don’t need moonlight. [00:55:00] You don’t need streetlight. There’s a bright light. The Motor City’s burning.” Hear it. Google it. YouTube Gregory Porter and it will come up. That’s the beauty of things today. What you say can be heard around the world and reheard and rebroadcast and taken in. And he’s a young man in his forties like my young man now is almost 50. But he’s special needs. But he was picketing in the Vietnam War movement. And the civil rights movement gave birth to the anti-war movement and to the Chicano Power movement and to the Puerto Rican Power movement. Power to the people wasn’t just a slogan, it was a program. [00:56:00] So, I came to Chicago in January, right after the slaughter -- 23 �JJ: -- In 1970 -- RS: -- of 1970, right after the slaughter of Mark Clark and Fred Hampton that was set up by one of their friends for $300 where they drew exactly where Fred Hampton was sleeping. JJ: You mean O’Neal? RS: Yes. Cha Cha knows it intimately because he’s part of the struggle, shoulder to shoulder with the Black Panthers. That’s why he had more trouble as a gang member when he was political than when he was a gang member. And he was in a legitimate gang, that is, bona fide gang that became conscious [00:57:00] of the whole ’60s movement. And they became, not just students of the movement -- they became teachers and learners of the movement. JJ: Why do you say that? RS: Because -- JJ: -- Or how can you say that? Were you around there? RS: I noticed that the people’s church became a church of the people. That’s extraordinary. JJ: What do you mean? How did you notice this? RS: Well, not only did it (inaudible) people’s church -- JJ: -- Were you living in Lincoln Park? RS: I wasn’t living in Lincoln Park. I was living in Austin, the West Side. There’s two big Black ghettoes in Chicago, South Side, which is bigger than Boston, and the West Side. We’d say that was the best side. But Lincoln Park was an area of [00:58:00] Puerto Ricans and Chicanos. I didn’t know there were so many 24 �Chicanos in Chicago. They came up for the steel mills and the industries, and they had a foothold in this powerful brawny city. And I could see the posts of that city. I worked in the construction trade. And I quit my job after I worked with Cha Cha. JJ: So, the Chicanos were living in (inaudible) -- RS: -- Chicago -- JJ: -- in the South Side then coming to -- RS: -- All over Chicago, everywhere. They limited the Puerto Ricans in one area. That was were they built Circle Campus. Yet there were no Puerto Ricans living at their campus. But this is where the working class so far, students went, which were white. They had five times as many [00:59:00] Latinos from outside America at that campus than they had people who grew up here in their own neighborhood. When I met Cha Cha, it was sometime near the end of April. We had previously agreed that we would meet, Mr. Levins, myself, and Cha Cha, to set up some classes about the history of Puerto Rico. I went down to the People’s Church and I noticed angry young men. I don’t mean angry young men like they talk about beatniks. I’m talking about people which had guns on them. They were outraged that women and children were hit by the police and then charged with assaulting the police officer. I came there [01:00:00] and I was shocked. I called around my white radical friends -- I hate to use that term. I call them “Radicos.” Something like liberals by radicals but radicals, more better sounding. I wanted a camera as a way to protect Cha Cha, and I want Dr. Richard Levins there. He came right away because he knew it was a dangerous 25 �situation. The police wanted to arrest Cha Cha where he was organizing, not at his house. They knew his movements everywhere. They didn’t want to shoot him in bed. They wanted this to be a shock within the community. I tell the Young Lords I had just met, “Get rid of the guns. Put them away. This is a setup. What’s wrong with this picture? Why are they having a nine year old arrested for assaulting a police officer? [01:01:00] What could the nine year old do to the police officer? Wasn’t he armed? Didn’t he outweigh him by 30 times? Wasn’t he vicious enough in his heart to do damage, the cop I mean?” Yes to all of those. So, I went to beseech Cha Cha because they asked me, “You are you?” I said, “Roger Sheppard.” I said, “I’ve come here to meet Cha Cha.” I went to meet Cha Cha, and I said, “You’re in a terrible situation.” They’d done this thing as a set-up, and it’s the oldest game in town. And they just played it on Mark Clark and Fred Hampton. Right? And they killed Manuel Ramos in 1969. [01:02:00] And Cha Cha said, “Get rid of the guns.” He even said, “Get rid of the grass.” We’ll be truthful now. And things calmed down. Bongos were played. Everything was peaceful and we were awaiting the cops coming. Dr. Richard Levins was there. I was there. My friend Antonio De Leon didn’t like the confrontation, so he was actually standing across the corner. And all of the actors who came together at a different act this time -- this is act two. And the Young Lords were in charge, not the Chicago police, whose motto “We Serve and Protect” is an oxymoron. [01:03:00] They don’t serve or protect. JJ: Was this in front of the church or at the -- 26 �RS: -- Right in front of the church. They came for Cha Cha in the church. I met Cha Cha in his office, José. But the Lords were lined up on the sidewalk, and I thought they were going to be mowed down. I had a hint about Chicago police because when I came in, they went through my luggage in Austin and they came into my house and said, “Where is all the communist literature coming from?” And I said, “Oh, that must be a term paper of my wife. But thank you for giving it to me because I appreciate you going through all my luggage. Is there anything I can do for you?” And they went away. Then they came around to my [01:04:00] moving truck from Boston and grabbed a plastic toy gun from my son’s toy box. It was in the glove compartment. They said, “What’s this?” I said, “That’s a toy. Can you hand it to me?” So, there’s two incidences. Then I went down to help the Social Workers Party move into the new headquarters. JJ: Where is that? RS: Where was it? JJ: The headquarters, yeah, the Socialist Party. RS: I forget where they moved to. It was downtown. JJ: Oh, it was downtown, okay. RS: But there was a group called Allegiance for Justice. It’s a fascist group that was threatening them. And after I moved everything for my own self, I wanted to use the truck for them to move stuff in. Later I found out the guy who was providing security for us was an agent. JJ: Who [01:05:00] was that? RS: Edward Heisler -- 27 �JJ: -- oh, okay -- RS: -- who I thought was a friend. He was a womanizer, but everybody was a womanizer. The women were womanizers. Funny times. And this guy actively organized in the union movement. And I pushed for him to be on the national committee because he succeeded in getting the right to vote on union contracts throughout the Canadian mail system for the UTU. I said, “He should be represented. We have all these [school boards as new stars?].” And he turns out to be an agent. He asked for his file because he was a good union worker. We wanted to show that the government is infiltrating all aspects like they do today. JJ: So, you were able to get his file at -- RS: -- We got his file when we did a suit against him, which we won, by Leonard Boudin in the ’70s [01:06:00] after the church committee, after the Pentagon papers, after all of that stuff, after they broke into Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office. And it was headed by a group called CREEP -- I’m not making this up -Committee to Reelect the President [sic], headed up by the attorney general engaged in skullduggery. They call him “Tricky Dick,” and I won’t go into any synonyms or any jokes, cheap jokes, cheap tricks. But he, like everybody else, did a dirty deal. What they did with the Kennedy brothers is put a whitewash on them because Kennedys were no friend to the civil rights movement. He called out the [01:07:00] Army and installed it in the buildings August 28th. Malcolm X used to call him John “the Fox” Kennedy. When Kennedy was assassinated, I’m 28 �not sure by whom, but the entanglement of the CIA and slippery people in Chicago again -JJ: -- Chicago -- RS: -- Chicago, the mobsters, where he shared Marilyn Monroe with this mobster. I forget his name. Some creep, like the Committee to Reelect the President’s name. Built up a lot of [indebtedness?]. But I remember Kennedy saying, “I wept the Bay of Pigs failed.” Castro defeated them in three days. I was worried because they said lines in the [01:08:00] -- lies in the press. “Change of error defense.” Go back and look April ’61. It was right around the time of Easter. The Unitarian church assistant minster said, “This is like the persecution of Christ.” He got fired by the Unitarians. Ain’t that something, as my oldest boy would say. Ain’t that something? Get fired for speaking the truth from a church on Easter. Hell of a way to run (inaudible). JJ: So, your oldest boy -- so -- RS: -- He’s doing good. JJ: So, how many children do you have? RS: I have three. I spaced them apart. One’s going to be 50 in September, Daniel Ford. JJ: Okay. What’s the other one? RS: My other one’s going to be 34, [01:09:00] Rebecca Sheppard esquire. She’s a lawyer, and she just gave me a beautiful gift of a baby girl who was two months old May 1st, the day of International Immigrants Day and the day of International Working Class Solidarity. I’ll get back to 1970. Oh, my youngest one just got into 29 �the electricians union. He worked retail for 14 years, since he was 14. Could get nowhere. He’d get fined because he couldn’t afford Romney’s insurance, something like Obamacare because he couldn’t make over $9.30 an hour. JJ: Now, you’re working with a union now? RS: I worked 49 years in the Local 103 IBEW, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. But to me, IBEW means “I’ve been everywhere.” [01:10:00] I worked in the railroads. I worked with telephone workers. I worked with electricians. And I worked in the Raytheon plant, all the time have little scuffles. They believe in defeating your enemies and rewarding your friends because they think that’s political. Prove it. But they believe anybody who opposes them is an enemy. So, I had my tires slashed on a couple of occasions. My tire went out on a turnpike in a snowstorm. “Vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, new tire.” I said, “You owe me a tire to the tire man.” He said, “This has been hit with a sharp instrument like a pocket knife.” And they called me up just beforehand. So, my suspicions led to them. And I had to think it through like I did with the Young Lords. You can’t just [01:11:00] go off the top of your head or with response from the hip. You have to say, “What is going on? Why are they so vicious toward me?” So, I said, “I want a meeting.” This was after I was in the union from ’65 to ’93. I was working for unemployment relief. They changed the law 12 months before unemployment as a base period to go back 18 months, forward 12, discount six. Cost me $5,000. So, I sent [Althea?] to the statehouse, the Grinch stealing Christmas just out of the (inaudible). He patted Cindy Lou and sent her to bed with a cup and he put the tree and shoved the tree up. And I put it in a hard hat because I’m an artist. 30 �Anyway, I drew a little hard hat. He said, “You think this is hard. Try losing your job and your benefits.” [01:12:00] Anyway, I met with them, and I said, “I’m not after your job. I’m not after your job.” That’s what they were concerned about. JJ: If you can describe what you saw in terms of the Young Lords when you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) you’re talking about people that just got involved. RS: Right. I’m sorry. JJ: No, no, that’s fine. RS: Let’s go back to 1970 -- JJ: -- I’m just trying to -- RS: -- in April -- JJ: -- how did you see the Young Lords at that time? I mean, what was going on in that neighborhood. RS: Not only going on in the neighborhood, but going on in the world. That was after ’68. Detroit got hot. Newark got hot. New York got hot. That’s not my words. That’s Farrakhan’s words. That’s what happened in real effect. And Johnson got on the TV with smoke coming out of the White House, and he said, “We must be peaceful.” [01:13:00] This was when he was slaughtering people by the thousands in Vietnam. Sixty-eight thousand didn’t come home for months. But well over a million, a million and a half were dead in Vietnam with napalm, with agent orange, shooting women and children, old people, young people, anybody in a black pajama suit they called Viet Cong. They would have a body count, and they lost the Army right around the time Cha Cha was emerging. There’s a thing 31 �called fragging where gung ho West Pointers would come home and say, “Let’s push the Vietnamese.” And Cha Cha was involved with the Panthers, was involved with the peace movement, [01:14:00] was involved with all movements of social change and especially wanted to teach by action self-determination exists not only for the Black community, but for the Puerto Rican community especially, a people that speaks two or three languages, where I’m an American that can only speak one. I met Omar López who was a minister of education, I believe. Who was a very -JJ: -- information, minister of information -- RS: -- learned man. Minister of information. I met Cha Cha. And that night we came to meet Cha Cha, fortunately, for us, before the police came -- we wanted a camera to protect him. [01:15:00] All of the sudden the guy shows up with a -- I call it a Steve Roper. That’s for old-timers. They had this [graphics?] with a four by five inserted film and a flash, professional photographer taking a picture of Cha Cha getting arrested. So, me and one of the Lords -- I thought it was Omar López -- said, “We’d like to have that film please,” and he gave us the film because he was surrounded by not only the Young Lords but by the community. And that film reveals Cha Cha getting arrested. Later on, just a matter of a week, ten students got shot up, and two weeks later, the Jackson State students got shot up. But this particular time, Cha Cha and I were discussing -- he found out I was an artist -- to design a poster. He says, “I have an idea. A picture of me like this (crosses arms) and say [01:16:00] they can beat us, they can jail us, and they can kill us. But the motherfuckers can’t stop us.” He thought that was a 32 �good thing. I said, “You’ve been beat. You’ve been jailed. And you’ve been killed. But we’d like to use your arrest as a basis of a poster, and we have the ability -- because the students took over the schools -- we have the ability to make a gigantic poster.” And Cha Cha looked at me and say, “I got it. ‘Basta Ya.’ Enough. No more police abuse in our community.” I said, “Beautiful.” I was 28. He was 21. We were exactly seven years apart. But he’s a strong young man. He spent 21 years growing up in this hell of America [01:17:00] that can also be a paradise where, in the twinkling of an eye for making a paradise out of all of the suffering, oppressed people can be the basis of a new society because when you’re oppressed, as a Palestinian man told me once when he was arrested for what he might do by the Israeli defense forces -- he told me when you are oppressed, you have nowhere to go by up. JJ: And I know that there was -- Ralph Rivera was also there. But there were -- what did -- and you said Omar López. What about -- RS: -- Oh, you had such a crew. JJ: What kind of groups were there? RS: Your groups -- when I came there, our main feeling was to get him out of prison as quickly as possible. But they said $2,500 cash bail. This was at a time [01:18:00] when I could by a $15,000 house, $250 down and $160 a month and rent it out for $45 for in law apartment and pay $115. People had property. That $2,500 was more than 20 times that. That’s what you’ve got to understand. I’m talking about 44 years ago. We raised that bail in one night. And I usually like to work hard with anybody. 33 �JJ: How did you do that? RS: We went out to everybody we could think of. And when they saw that beret, that purple beret, the doors would open. We went over to Studs Terkel’s house. I forget whether it was Omar or somebody else. At that time, we used to -- if somebody had smokes, we all had smokes. If somebody had a dollar, we all had a dollar. If somebody could get food, we all had food. [01:19:00] That’s the way they worked it. Socialists, not so much. Socialists -- this is mine, like a two years old. But the Young Lords knew how to share because that’s how they got through life. And that’s why I said they were teaching. But we went to Studs Terkel’s house -- I remember -- and he wrote out a check for $50. Mine you, that’s $500 -- no, that’s a $1,000 today, at least, at least. We said, “No, no, no. We need cash.” He went back in and gave us $50. I stayed up all night with the Lords. Lords told me -- they said, “You know, you’re the first socialist I’ve seen working with us.” I said, “Well, that’s going to change.” [01:20:00] To my regret, it didn’t, but I’ll go into that later. The Lords set an example by how they functioned. The Panthers, at that time, were reeling from attacks on the government, reeling from inside fights by COINTELPRO -- that’s the FBI disruption campaign -- and trying to work with people who had no money, which means they can be desperate. That’s difficult times. But the Young Lords went through the exact same thing. But the heart and their culture was a giving culture, and they set a moral example to be upright and walk upright [01:21:00] like Malcolm X was teaching and Elijah Muhammad and many others, Jesus and Muhammad, all of the prophets. They were all out of the cities. They all disliked 34 �the corruption that was going on in their church. It wasn’t church, it was synagogues. And they would continually renew the church. But to me, the Young Lords embodied that religious spirit of sharing and giving. That’s what struck me, the comradeship. JJ: A religious spirit, you’re saying? RS: I’m saying the holy spirit of giving. See, people somehow -- whatever they say, we see the consciousness decides what the hands are going to do. Steve Biko in the Black Conscious Movement in South Africa [01:22:00] said the biggest weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed. What Cha Cha and the Young Lords were doing was consciousness raising, like the women’s movement said they were doing. But we think of the women’s movement often as white women. But there are Latino women and Black women, and they each have a different take, not as many differences as some other period, not here. But what they did in spirit -- spirit simply means “I breathe,” spiro. That’s the Latin word for “I breathe.” Respiration means you breathe again. Expire means you breath out for the last time. Conspire means you breathe with. [01:23:00] And I know because I took Latin. It’s part of the human soul and condition. The thing about religion is it gets in the way sometimes of religiosity, real righteousness, often gets in the way. In that parable that Jesus said about the Samaritan, he was talking about the Levites who were the rabbi class of the Jews. They didn’t help a man. But the Young Lords would go out of their way because that was their business. It wasn’t a business. One thing that irks me about -- JJ: -- Can you give me some examples? 35 �RS: Oh, yes. They were going to set up a breakfast for children program. But the best example I saw was that 24 hours we raised the $2,500. We weren’t a large group. We raised that $2,5000 in cash. [01:24:00] And I must admit, we were proud of presenting that cash. And I had my doubts about the (inaudible) that Cha Cha was engaged in because he said -- (inaudible) to badmouth on him. He was a white guy. And I thought he wasn’t treating it as a serious matter. And Cha Cha was facing serious charges because of who and what he was. He was an organizer, and he taught other people to organize and work together as a group. It’s not as easy as it sounds, especially when you have the whole power of the state and some churches and others powered on top of you and spurious charges on you. Anyway, the Young Lords came to the students who were rallying in defense of the Kent State and Jackson State and said [01:25:00] simply, “Power to the students.” And they had an emotional outburst from everybody. And I think a little relief because they had other people pose as revolutionaries, would castigate students who were doing the right thing. “You’re not here (inaudible) you. The revolution was begun. Time to pick up the gun.” Little limerick that you might read in a Chinese fortune cookie. But we weren’t playing revolution, and the Young Lords were deadly serious. That’s why the idea has never died. JJ: So, did you see any women at all -- RS: -- Oh yes -- JJ: -- involved? 36 �RS: They were powerful. Unfortunately and fortunately -- I’ll tell you a funny story. [01:26:00] Since I was in Chicago for the second time -- ’63 first time, ’70 second time -- police introduced themselves by stopping my truck. “You’re riding on a boulevard. You can be charged with that.” I said, “What a boulevard?” “This is a boulevard.” That was three o’clock in the morning. I got three times hit by the police. There was a group called the Weathermen. They wanted to have a street fight like Bill Ayers. Street fight the cops but his daddy owned all the utilities in Chicago. What’s wrong with that picture? I’ll tell you what, in 1970 in May 4th, with the help of the Young Lords and the movement giving them some support, the Young Lords were honored throughout the movement. This was a movement of one million [01:27:00] students. I spoke two minutes. I quit my job immediately when this happened. I didn’t (inaudible) Young Lords. I’d work, stay up all night, and go to work. I didn’t care. Like tonight. No big deal. There was the Circle Campus, Illinois University -- what do you call it -- University of Illinois Circle Campus. I told my comrades that we’re going to have a meeting. How are we going to take over the school? Well, we’ll have a meeting of 8,000 students in the meeting. You’re going to say, “What should we do?” I say we need some facilities to organize this massive movement and shut this country down. That’s what I told them. The students answered me in one voice. They said, “We have no power.” I said, “You are the power.” And the [01:28:00] administrators came with the key, that simple. And we had WATS lines. That was a big gift because WATS lines meant we could call anywhere free in the country. Now everybody has a WATS line in their pocket. I don’t know where mine is. But any cell phone 37 �can reach the whole world, can reach the whole world. They study mimeographing. I remember the Lords were happy to get some paper. They were happy for anything. They didn’t look a gift horse in the mouth. Some jaded revolutionaries -- I hate to say this. This is nothing against the Young Lords but against radicals that I’ve grown up with. They might have meant well when they were young, but they began to be involved in money and their this and that. They’re what they French say, “They shit the bed,” lâcher une. [01:29:00] They’re not here. Where are they? Well, they’re having a hard time too. Everybody here's having a hard time. But the Lords had gratitude. And gratitude goes a long way in this world. If you think you’ve got nothing, think about what you have. They had real comradeship. I went to a forum with Clifton DeBerry who organized Montgomery support, station wagons so they could sustain their boycott. He was a Black man from Chicago. And he gave a May Day speech that was the best May Day speech I ever heard. That was because he noticed five Young Lords in the audience. I was told by some of my comrades that I was patronizing the Young Lords by offering them a Coke without them paying. [01:30:00] (Laughs) I think I lost my hair because I went to too many meetings with folks, too many. But I liked the Young Lords because they had action, on the spot action, and they were facing enormous odds, and they overcame it. And I’ll tell you another thing. The Young Lords created -- when I’m talking about spirit and spirit’s contagious -- the movement jumped to New York but had a slightly different flavor, came from Columbia University and other places like that, not from the street. It was good they had students get involved, but they sometimes 38 �forgot where they came from [01:31:00] and that’s not a good thing. And I’ll close just with this. The Young Lords have shown me one thing very much. I was taught by many, many people, old-timers and youngster and everything else, and I learned it when I was a kid. And it’s a little thing from the Bible. I don’t even know what chapter it is. It’s this. It’s not money that’s the root of all evil. It’s the love of money that’s the root of all evil. The love of money gets you in front of any god that they worship, any friend that they have, and any lover that they have. The love of money is the root of all evil. And the Young Lords practiced love. As Che Guevara said, at the base of everything a revolutionary stands for is love. [01:32:00] And the Young Lords not only developed the community around their community, remember they thought locally, they acted locally, and they also acted globally and acted globally. JJ: Can you give an example of that? RS: I saw them when they participated in a forum -- just for one little example -because things were moving very quick. All the students were taking over all the schools. (inaudible) was even doing something like they wanted to have their parking lot open. And they were sitting there with a car so that people could come in. That was a nice gesture. Then all of the sudden they said to just smash the thing and open it up. But we had to be very careful. Now mind you, ’68 was a police riot in Chicago against demonstrators that wanted peace, a police riot [01:33:00] against peace all throughout the world shown when Mayor Daley said that (chin flick gesture) to a gentleman who was calling them gestapo. So, they had a deal with this police. What we did is we got the theology students 39 �to surround the ROTC building. No Weathermen so-called revolutionaries were going to touch the ROTC building. And we did that all the way around because we had hundreds of volunteers. And then, we organized 100,000. And (air quotes) “we” this time meant those students who were fighting against the tuition hikes on May 4th. We were going to have an organizing meeting of 20, and they came up with 2,000. And we called that the strike [01:34:00] council. And everything went through this strike council. And I remember a funny incident. This is -- I don’t want to close on this. I’ll close on another thing. There was a woman that we worked with who was a member of the Communist Party. We knew that. And she wanted to have a speaker. But she thought it should be arranged from the inside without going through the council. So, I said -- she wanted a Young Patriots of some kind to come speak, and I didn’t know about them. I said, “Let’s bring it up before the strike council.” She said, “You’re against me because I’m a communist.” I said, “Are you a communist?” She said, “Yes.” I said, “Goddammit, then act like one.” Then we just took that and ran. But the strike council organized that hundred thousand. It became 2,500 [01:35:00] and then 3,000 and they made all the decisions democratically and the Young Lords were represented there. JJ: So, this was a group of a lot of different organizations? RS: Many, many. And one person, one vote. That was new and democratic and moved fast and efficiently. The Young Lords came up before a meeting. Rallies were held everywhere to educate and bring everybody up to snuff. And people were paying attention because a lot of lives were being lost in Vietnam and 40 �elsewhere, right on the streets of Chicago. They were paying attention. Listen, listen, listen. Too much blood has been spilt. That’s where the red flag gets its name from. Don’t you know? A bloodstain banner. An old spiritual, (singing) “We’re going to hold up the bloodstain banner. We’re going to hold it up until we die. We are soldiers in the [01:36:00] Army. We’re going to fight although we have to die. We’re going to hold -- we’re going to hold up the bloodstain banner. We’re going to hold it up until we die. My mother, she was a soldier. She had her hand on the freedom plow. But one day, she got old. She couldn’t fight anymore. But she stood there and fought anyhow.” Well, the Young Lords participated with a man that I knew as a spokesman for the IRA officials in Ireland. There was always a guy with a trench coat -- I thought that was out of the movies -- standing with him. His name was Malachi McCourt. He refused to speak in racist Southie Boston because they were racist on the same platform as Louise Day Hicks and Whitey Bulger. [01:37:00] But the Young Lords are there to give an international view, and a national view. The IRA was there to give an international view and a national view. And many, many different speakers were there. And everybody paid attention those days because that strike struck a chord in America. We’re only talking about two weeks that I was involved with the Lords but I (inaudible) had a good time. Didn’t I? God has seen that I am in the right place at the right time. Huh? My twin brother was there when Malcolm got shot. I did a forum with [01:38:00] John Ali, the guy who set up Malcolm, national secretary to the Nation of Islam. And he spoke, and I didn’t have the -his heart wasn’t in it. And I find out 35 years later in The Judas Factor by Karl 41 �Evanzz who went through 200,000 files of FBI files that John Ali was acting as an agent and set him up. Betrayal. You hear it all the time. It happened in the Panthers resulting in the death and destruction of the Black Panther Party led by the FBI, the CIA, and those liberal Democrats. That’ll close. JJ: Okay. Want to close with that? RS: Yeah. What would you like to close with? JJ: No, no, that’s fine. That’s a good closing. That was great. Let me just make sure that we [01:39:00] don’t have to redo that. RS: Okay. JJ: (laughs) RS: You’re funny. END OF AUDIO FILE 42 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/781ddc4e7fde4fd10fb7d97d16ea53a2.mp4 3290a036948cbaafe82e4dddb619fd7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Roger Sheppard vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Historia oral de Roger Sheppard, entrevistado por José 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 23/10/2016 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Sheppard_Roger Title A name given to the resource Roger Sheppard video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheppard, Roger Description An account of the resource Oral history of Roger Sheppard, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez on October 23, 2016 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c78f8f5a7419b1153655c1b4b14fa955.pdf ae93668d7463f44ead4a7258097c2d68 PDF Text Text �• -Ill !;:;k 4· Wye off E: armt Or - an ing. Mic 915 SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP NEWAYGO COUNTY) MICHIGAN Ill Ill Ill Ill Ill Ill Ill Ill Ill COMPREHENSIVE DEVELOPMENT PLAN DECEMBER) 1976 - cS 0 - □~ - PI_A\ 520 ING CO"-JSULTAN T CHERRY STREET S ERV IC ES LANSING , M ICH IGAN 48 9 33 I N CO RPORATED 517 3 71- 1315 �SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP BOARD Gordon Oosterhouse, Supervisor Ben Boes, Clerk Myles Hollowell, Treasurer Charles C. Bennett, Trustee Jack Sanderson, Trustee SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION John Bonk, Chairman Larry Brinkman Arnold Dougan George Shriver PLANNING CONSULTANT Planning Consultant Services, Inc. 520 Cherry Street Lansing, Michigan 48933 �• • • •II II TABLE OF CONTENTS INTRODUCTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • Figure' l - Profile of Planning Process Regional Perspective . . . . Figure 2 - Regional Map BACKGROUND . . . . . . . . . . . . Socio-Economic Characteristics Figure 3 - Regional Growth Figure 4 - Population Projections Figure 5 - Age-Sex Composition • Housing ••...... • . Land Use . . • . . . . . . Figure 6 - Existing Land Use ..• Environment . . . . . . . . Figure 7 - Slope Analysis Figure 8 - Wetlands Figure 9 - Vegetation Figure 10 - Limitations to Residential Development Figure 11 - Limitations to Residential Development Figure 12 - Limitations to Agricultural Use • Transportation . . . . . . . . Figure 13 - Major Roads Sanitary Sewage Disposal . . . . . Figure 14 - Sanitary Sewer Plan • • • . • • NEEDS AND DIRECTIONS . . . . . . . . .. . I. Sheridan Township Development Plan. . • . II. Land Use • . . . . III. Environment . . . . . . • . . . • • .... . .. ...... . THE PLAN Figure 15 - Master Street and Highway Plan Figure 16 - Comprehensive Development Plan . IMPLEMENTATION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 6 7 21 27 33 42 44 46 49 50 52 53 63 J �II ""-~ ~ �-I I I I I I I INTRODUCTION PURPOSE OF THE PLAN Every individual or group plans their future to some extent, some more extensively than others. Individuals plan their budgets, their insurance program, their educational goals, their retirement, and their daily activities. Families plan their vacations, or whether to add a room to the house. Businesses plan inventory levels, advertising campaigns, and capital investment. Municipalities must plan their future, too. Planning is necessary to determine the vJisest use of the community's resources, both physical and human, in order to reach established goals and objectives. Comprehensive planning is a process which considers a broad range of community characteristics in establishing a strategy for future development. One of the basic objectives of this Plan is the attainment of a desirable, efficient, and satisfying living environment for the residents of Sheridan Township. To be efficient and effective, the Township needs a guide for growth and development. It will provide the framework for numerous daily decisions on zoning, public services, and human needs. This master land use, or development, plan is designed to promote the public health, safety, morals and general 1t1elfare in Sheridan Township. Its further purposes are: - To encourage the use of lands in accordance with their character and adaptability and to limit the improper use of land to avoid the overcrowding of population; To provide adequate light and air; - To lessen congestion on the public roads and streets; - To reduce hazards to life and property; - To facilitate adequate provision for a system of transportation, sewage disposal, safe and adequate water supply, education, recreation and other public requirements; - To conserve the expenditure of funds for public improvements and services to conforn with the ~ost advan t ageous uses of land, resources and properties; �I I I I I I I - To conserve property values and natural resources; and - To insure a desirable trend and character of land, building, and population development. THE PLANNING PROCESS Planning is a continuing process which involves four basic steps: (1) a survey and analysis of Background information relevant to preparing the community plan; (2) a determination of problems, trends, and potentials, and the formulation of Goals and Policies to take best advantage of conditions; (3) a Plan, which is a written and graphic presentation of proposed development designed to achieve stated goals; and (4) Implementation of Plan proposals and periodic updating and reevaluation. I The chart, which follows, illustrates this process. I I I I The continuing nature of the planning process should be emphasized, as should the active participation of community residents. Constant review and, when necessary, modification of the Plan is needed to reflect changing community desires and needs. I I I I I I I PROFILE OF PLANNING PROCESS BASIC STUDIES • BACKGROUND STUDIES A GENERAL REVIEW OF LOCAL SITUATION · PROBLEMS, NEEDS, POTENTIALS, HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE ETC • POLICY PLAN • • GOALS PHYSICAL PLAN • DESIGN POLICIES OBJECTIVES ASSUMPTIONS PRINCIPLES 5 , STANDARDS 1. GENERATE ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS OR PLANS 2. EVALUATE ALTERNATIVES 3. SELECT IDEAL 1. 2. 3. 4. • IMPLEMENT • IMPLEMENTATION 1. ESTABLISH PRIORITIES 2. FINANCING 3. TIMING • ADMINISTRATION • DATA INVENTORY 1. PUT PLANS INTO EFFECT 1. POPULATION STUDY 2. ECONOM IC BASE STUDY i LAND USE STUDY 4. TRANSPORTATION STUDY 5. OPEN SPACE. RECREATION , CONSERVATION STUDY 6 . GOVi \. + COMMUN ITY FACILITIES STUOY 2. RE-EVALUATE, SUGGEST REVISIONS • ANALYSIS-SYNTHESIS 1. DATA EVALUATION 2, SPACE NEEDS i FORECASTING FtG.1 -3- �• I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I REGIONAL PERSPECTIVE Sheridan Township in Newaygo County, Michigan, surrounds much of the City of Fremont. As such, while remaining primarily rural, Sheridan Township is • facing problems of suburbanization and urban development for which planning must be done. The combined population of Fremont and Sheridan Township was 5,942 in 1970, and is estimated at being in excess of 6,000 today. Sheridan Township covers an area of approximately 35 square miles and is located 35 miles north of Grand Rapids and 20 miles east of Muskegon. The most prominent natural feature of the Township is Fremont Lake, which has an area of 1.3 square miles and a shoreline of nearly six miles. The major employer in the Township is Gerber Products Company, the largest producer of baby foods in the world. Gerber headquarters are located in Fremont. Michigan highways M-82 and M-120 pass through, or border the Township, providing convenient access to the rest of the area and to Grand Rapids and Muskegon. M-2.0 M-82. REGIONAL MAP -4- ~ north FIG 2 �The northwest corner of Sheridan Township is the point where three counties meet - Newaygo, Oceana, and Muskegon. While much of the land within the Township remains in agricultural production, only 10% of Sheridan's workers were employed in the agricultural industry and 9% listed farming as their occupation. The employment base is highly diverse, with 24% operatives and laborers, 21 % professionals, and 18% in sales and clerical occupations. . In the l850's settlement began in the Sheridan Township area. Fremont was incorporated and became a trade center for the logging industry. Dan Gerber started a tannery in 1874 which was the town's principal industry. By 1900, the land was cleared and orchards and other crops were planted, and farming became a major influence. Shortly after 1900, the Fremont Canning Company was founded, which later became Gerber Products and began the national sale of baby foods in 1926. The stability of the agricultural economy has boosted the prosperity of the area . • • • • • • -5- �• • I I I I I I �SOCIO-ECONOMIC CHARACTERISTICS A study of socio-economic characteristics and changes is an essential step in evaluating community growth. \·Jhen local governments assume the task of planning • for the future, they are automatically dealing with the needs of a changing population. Failure to look closely at population and economic trends and characteristics, in an effort to anticipate what the future holds, can and has resulted in economic and social loss to Michigan communities. Inadequate public facilities and services often attest to a lack of understanding of population change. Governmental services cannot be adequately planned on the basis of present needs alone. Present plans must be based upon future needs if undue costs are to be avoided. A careful study of the population forms the basis for many decisions, and for other studies that must be made in planning for the community's future . • • -I I I I I I GROWTH TRENDS In 1970, Sheridan Township was the second largest municipality in Newaygo County with a population of 2,477. Since 1940 it has grown almost 80% for an annual average of about 2.7%. Only the City of Fremont, which lies to a great extent in Sheridan Township, is larger in population, and it has grown about 38% since 1940, in contrast to Newaygo County 1t1hich grew 45~;: durinq the same period. The 4-township area surrounding Fremont contains 35% of the total population of Newaygo County. In the 1960's, Newaygo County grew 15.9 percent, or slightly faster than the State's 13 percent. While Sheridan Township grew 9.8%, Fremont grew only 2.4%. At the same time, Holton Township to the west grew 3.5%, Dayton Township to the north grew 11.8~, Sherman Township to the northeast grew 30%, Garfield Township to the east declined by 15.5% due to annexation by Newaygo, and Bridgeton Tm·mship to the south grew 17.9%. These figures suggest that in the 1960's, Fremont was expanding to the north and east. Development further south into Sheridan Township is somewhat constrained by soils and the location of the lake. Sewer extensions would, however, open up the Township for rapid development. Table l and Figure 3 illustrate growth trends in the Sheridan Township area during the 1960 ' s. -7- �• • • • - TABLE l SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP AREA GROWTH 1960-1970 1970 Population % Change 1960-1970 Newaygo County Sheridan Township Fremont (City) Ashland Township Grant ( Vi 11 age) Bridgeton Township Dayton Towns hip Garfield Township Newaygo (City) Sherman Township 27,992 2,477 3,465 2,235 772 870 l, 910 l ,448 l, 381 l, 411 15.9 9.8 2.4 12. l 5.5 17.9 11.8 -15.5 - 4.6 30.0 Oceana County Greenwood Township Hesperia (Village) 17,984 575 877 8.7 13.2 6.6 157,426 1,467 1,499 5.0 19.9 3.5 Muskegon County Cedar Creek Township Holton Tm·mship Source: U.S. Census, 1970. -t-1 I -1-- -1- __ I ___ l___ ICREENWOODII M'<iO"t +-ti,& I -H3,2. +--I : SHEllMAN 1' .. ~.o I I .. - ~FR.:MoJ-r I NCOUN'T~ - -l7",,,.,.,.~~1.J+2.4 -,- - - +- - - I MOL.TON (?MERIOAAl~ CaAllFIE.U) I I I I +.3.5 t +9.& ~ -15.5 I I 1- - -I - - - . . T - - -1- - I I I I , e~DAAcm.K B R I ~ As~LAND 1 1 1 I I -.19,9 I +11.9 I +12,1 I I OCEA ~Ul-.liY Mc;-~EG -I I I I - - - ::,W~//~,'(U,<, _ - - -~- --1----r---1----:---11 : IN~WAGO iouN,y I I - - - - - - - - - - - REGlONAL GROWTH PERCENT C~ANGE: 19~0- 1970 -B- I ,- I ~ north - I I �POPULATION PROJECTIONS Several common population projection methods have been utilized to arrive at estimated future population ranges. By plotting these projections graphically, it is possible to determi~e a reasonable middle range projection by estimation. Two similar methods are the ratio-component method and that which is contained in the Newaygo County Plan. The ratio-component approach assumes that the Township will continue to capture a set percentage (8.85% in 1970) of the - total county population. The Newaygo County projection used in this case was obtained from the Michigan Department of Commerce. The basic difference in these approaches is that the County Plan projection assumes, for reasons not explained, a declining rate of growth from 1990 to l9J5. The results of this assumption can be seen in the projection (Figure 4). A third method is based upon an estimate of 1975 population based on building permit statistics. The number of new homes built is known, the approximate population per household (3.28), and the increase is determined by multiplying one by the other. The projection is then a simple arithmetic or straight line method using the 1970-1975 growth rate as the base for projection. A fourth method is the same arithmetic projection using the growth rate from 1940-1970 as the base for estimation. This approach gives a qood feel of long term trends which can be expected to continue unless some drastic development occurs which changes the entire character of the area - such as a major new industry. A fifth method used is the geometric projection. This approach reflects the average rate of population change for ~he area over a period of time in the past (1950-1970/2.04', per year) and the extension of this rate into the future. The final method is si mply a graphic averaging between the highest and lowest projection to approximate a reasonable middle range projection. I I I These techniques are obviously more dependable for short-term projections of 5 to 10 years t han for longer projections. In addition, dramatic population shifts are difficult to predict and if they occur it will be necessary to revise projections made. The projections incorporated in this report reflect past trends, 111hich naturally may vary in the future. As such, they should be used with caution. �Table 2 reveals that the rate of growth in State population declined significantly in the 1960's. In the l940's and 1950's, State population growth was in excess of 20%, while in the past ten years, growth occurred at a rate of only 13%. In contrast, the growth rate in Newaygo County has increased recently. In the 1940's, growth occurred at a rate of 12%; in the 1950's, growth occurred at a rate of 12%; and, in the 1960's, growth occurred at a rate of 16%. Therefore, it is apparent that Sheridan Township is not attaining the State and County average growth rate, and in addition has actually seen a declining growth rate in the 1960's similar to that which occurred in Fremont at the same time. TABLE 2 POPULATION TRENDS 1940-1970 State of Michigan Newaygo County Sheridan Township Fremont City Source: • -I I I I 1940 5,256,106 19,286 1,379 2,520 1950 6,371,766 21 , 567 1,759 3.056 1960 7,823,194 24, 160 2,256 3,384 1970 8,875,083 27,992 2,477 3,465 1940-70 % Change +69 +45 +80 +38 U.S. Census, 1940-1970. Grov,th in Sheridan Township has dropped significantly in the past 10 years. It grew from 28S in the l940's _. to 287; in the l950's, and only 10% in the 1960's . Recognizing that growth h~s continued in the Fremont area, it is not unreasonable to expect that Sheridan will continue to attract a significant proportion of that growth. The slowing growth rate in Sheridan Township could change overnight. In fact, based upon building permits alone, it could be estimated that since 1970 the Township population has increased by about 266 persons, which is a ten-year groi,.ith rate of about 18%. This indicates a strong recovery is in the making. - 10- �II • •II 1. II • TABLE 3 SHERIDAN TOtvNSHIP POPULATION PROJECTIONS 1970-2000 1970 1975 1980 1985 1990 1995 2000 Ra ti a-Component (8.85 % Newaygo Co.*) 2,477 2,639 2,813 3,052 3,306 3,582 3,881 2. Newaygo County Plan 1973 (Interpolation) _;_,447 2,662 2,846 3,031 3,215 3,400 3,585 3. Building Statistics 1970-75/Straight Line 2,477 2,694 2,925 3,150 3,375 3,600 3,825 4. Arithmetic (1940-1970) 2,477 2,660 2,843 3,026 3,209 3,392 3,575 5. Geometric (1950-1970) 2,477 2,698 2,939 3,202 3,488 3,800 4,139 6. Analysis Method 2,477 2,707 2,937 3,167 3,397 3,627 3,857 Projection Method *Newaygo County population projections obtained from the Michigan Department of Commerce . • I I I I I -11- �• • • • • • -I -I I I I I I I 4200 I ' 4000 / • I I 3800 I I 3600 , / ,1' /f' 1/' ,, ,I If,,, 3400 ,,. , , , ,, , /#1/ ,' /,, / ,, ,, ,,' //,/,,,, .,, , , ,, ,, ~ ,,,,/ ,, ,, d1/ ,, 3200 1/', I /~ , / / / 'l .', ~ /,:', I / I , ,, ,, ,, / / / ,/ ,' ►1/ ,, , ,, 1/ P' _, ; .,.,. 3000 ,. ~ /~ ,, , 2800 /:,/,,' , ,y ,,,,,~' /,' , 1' ~,',," /41/.',, /!_,.',, , 2600 ,,,,-,,, , ,,, , , ,, , 2400 1970 1975 1980 1985 Ratio-Component County Plan (Arithmetic: 1940- 1970 Trend) Building Statistics 1990 1995 2000 Sheridan Township Population Projections 1970-2000 Geometric: 1950-1970 Trend Analysis -1 2- FIG. 4 �SELECTED STATISTICS Tab1es 4 - 14 which follow reveal the following facts concerning the residents of Sheridan Township: From 1965 to 1970: 69% have lived in the same house in Sheridan Township. 19% have lived in another house in Newaygo County and their present house in Sheridan Township. 8% have lived in Michigan and their present house in Sheridan Township. 4% have moved here from outside Michigan. 1% have moved from a previous residence of unknown location. 0% have returned from abroad since 1965. -I I I I I I Tenure 9% are life residents of Sheridan Township. 42% moved into Sheridan Township between 1965-1970. Education of Persons 25 Years and Over 19~ have an 8th grade education or less. 23% have a high school education of 1-3 years. 44% have had 4 years of high school education. 10% have had 1-3 years of college. 3% have had 4 years of college. 1% have hid 5 years or more college. Persons Enrolled 58°s were in 38~ were in 4% were in 80% were in 14~ were in 6% were in in School in 1970 (Ages 3-34) nursery or elementary school. high school. college. public schools. parochial schools. private schools. Employment - Occupation (Ages 14-0ver) 24~ Operatives and Laborers 2l t Professional and Managers 18% Sales and Clerical -13- �• '' 'II -II 12% 12% 9% 4% ~ II ~ ~ ~ - Craftsmen and Foremen Service Workers Farming Occupation Not Reported • Employment - Industry 24% Professional 20% Manufacturing, Non-Durable Goods 13% Wholesale/Retail Trades l 0% Agricultural 8% Manufacturing, Durable Goods 8% Transportation 5% Other & Not Reported Business and Personal Services 5 3u; Construction 3' Public Administration 1 Finance C Family Income S 9,360 Average Household Income $ 8,743 Median Family Income Race 99.6% are white, compared to 97.5% in Newaygo County. 0.2% are black, compared to 1. 9% in Newaygo County . Age 26.6 years is the median age. 4o.n are under age 18. 5.0°'.'. are over age 65. �•II SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP AGE- SEX COMPOSITION II II I I I I I I I I I I I - 1970 TOTALS TOTALS 85 93 143 148 120 123 128 138 135 163 58 67 118 241 186 123 66 I I 30 20 10 10 I I 20 I I 30 I AVERAGE NUMBER OF PERSONS PER YEAR FEMALE MALE SOURCE : U.S. CENSUS, FIG. 5 1970 - 15- �I I -I I I II -II ~ ~ TABLE 4 PERSONS 14 YEARS OLD AND OVER BY MARITAL STATUS AND SEX Male Female Never Married 164 236 591 562 Married, Spouse Present 4 Married, Spouse Absent 10 0 Separated 0 74 Widowed 10 12 26 Divorced Source: U.S. Census, 1970. TABLE 5 PERSONS 5 YEARS OLD AND OVER BY RESIDENCE IN 1965 Same House 1,546 Different House Same County 422 Different County Same State 168 Different State Northeast 0 North Central 72 South 7 West O Abroad, In Armed Forces in 1965 0 Abroad, flat in Armed Forces in 1965 0 1oved, Residence in 1965 Not Reported 22 Source: U.S. Census, 1970. TABLE 6 PERSONS BY THE YEAR PERSON MOVED INTO HOUSING UNIT 206 1969-1970 285 1968 203 1967 320 1965-1966 376 1960-1964 543 1950-1959 268 1949 or Earlier 222 Always Lived Here Source: U.S. Census, 1970. -16- �-II -II TABLE 7 PERSONS 3-34 YEARS OLD ENROLLED IN SCHOOL BY LEVEL AND TYPE OF SCHOOL Private Public Parochial Nursery School 20 0 0 13 Elementary School 380 138 18 High School 0 349 College 26 12 Source: U.S. Census, 1970. TABLE 8 PERSONS 25 YEARS OLD AND OVER BY YEARS OF SCHOOL COMPLETED AND SEX Male Female Total No School Years Completed, Includes Nursery and Kindergarten 4 0 4 Elementary 1-4 Years 5 11 6 5-6 Years 0 0 0 7 Years 33 16 49 8 Years 119 62 181 High School 1-3 Years 132 162 294 4 Years 244 315 559 Co 11 ege 1-3 Years 48 82 130 4 Years 24 15 39 5 Years or More 5 4 9 Source: U.S. Census, 1970. TABLE 9 PERSONS 16 YEARS OLD AND OVER BY LABOR FORCE STATUS, SELECTED CHARACTERISTICS, AND SEX Male In Armed Forces In Labor Force Employed Unemployed Not In Labor Force Under 65 Inmate Enrolled in School Other 65 and Over Inmate Enrolled in School Other Source: U.S. Census, 1970. -17- Female 0 0 538 38 308 0 37 54 42 355 0 0 68 9 0 0 0 88 �• •II II II - TABLE 10 EMPLOYED PERSONS 16 YEARS OLD AND OVER BY OCCUPATION Professional, Technical and Kindred Workers Engineers, Technical Physicians, Dentists and Related Practitioners Medical and Other Health Workers, except Practitioners Teachers, Elementary and Secondary Schools Technicians, except Health Other Professional Workers Managers and Administrators Except Farm Salaried Manufacturing Retail Trade Other Industries Self Employed Retail Trade Other Industries Sales Workers Manufacturing and Wholesale Trade Retail Trade Other Sales Workers Clerical and Kindred Workers Bookkeepers Secretaries, Stenographers and Typists Other Clerical Workers Craftsmen, Foremen and Kindred Workers Automobile Mechanics and Body Repairmen Mechanics and Repairmen, except Auto Machinists Metal Craftsmen, except Mechanics and Machinists Carpenters Construction Craftsmen, except Carpenters Other Craftsmen Operatives, Except Transport Durable Goods, Manufacturing Nondurable Goods, Manufacturing Nonmanufacturing Industries Transport Equipment Operatives Truck Ori vers Other Transport Equipment Operatives Laborers, Except Farm Construction Laborers Freight, Stock, and Material Handlers Other Laborers, Except Farm Farmers and Farm Managers Farm Laborers and Farm Foremen Farm Laborers, Unpaid Family Workers Farm Laborers, Except Unpaid, and Farm Foremen Service Workers, Except Private Household Cleaning Service Workers Food Service Workers Health Serv1ce Workers Personal Service Workers Protective Service Workers Other Service Workers, except Private Household Private Household Workers Source: U.S. Census, 1970. -18- 0 0 33 39 12 64 14 5 11 6 0 6 16 5 13 48 60 28 5 0 0 20 4 52 42 60 34 15 27 4 26 10 41 0 28 30 4 34 35 0 15 0 �II II II II II II "II II I -I I I I I I I I TABLE 11 EMPLOYED PERSONS 14 YEARS OLD AND OVER BY OCCUPATION AND SEX • Professional, Technical, and Kindred Workers Managers and Administrators, Except Farm Sales Workers Clerical and Kindred Workers Craftsmen, Foremen, and Kindred ~forkers Operatives, Except Transport Transport Equipment Operatives Laborers, Except Farm Farmers and Farm Managers Farm Laborers and Foremen Service Workers, Except Private Household Private Household Workers Occupation Not Reported Source: U.S. Census, 1970. Male Female 54 94 26 10 27 50 6 71 104 5 82 37 43 47 41 0 0 30 6 39 64 0 0 16 21 5 TABLE 12 EMPLOYED PERSONS 14 YEARS OLD AND OVER BY INDUSTRY AND SEX Tota 1 Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries Mining Construction Manufacturing, Durable Goods Manufacturing, Nondurable Goods Transportation Wholesale and Retail Trade Finance, Insurance and Real Estate Business and Repair Services Personal Services Entertainment and Recreation Services Professional and Related Services Public Administration Industry Not Reported Source: U.S. Census, 1970. -19- 89 Ma 1e 83 0 28 68 176 71 115 9 14 21 6 208 0 28 68 110 62 98 4 14 5 0 44 27 16 46 21 �•II TABLE 13 FAMILIES BY FAMILY INCOME Under $1,000 $1,000 - $1,999 $2,0()0 - $2,Q99 $3,()00 - $3,999 $4,000 - $4,999 $5,()00 - $5,999 $6,00() - $6,999 $7,000 - $7,999 $8,()00 - $8,999 $9,000 - $9,999 $10,000 - $11,999 $12,000 - $14,999 $15,000 - $24,999 $25,000 - $49,999 $50,000 and over Aggregate Family Income Source: U.S. Census, 1970. II II II II -I I I I I I I I I I I I 5 37 15 30 45 24 67 41 74 56 110 68 56 11 0 $5,981,350 TABLE 14 SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP AND NEWAYGO COUNTY GENERAL POPULATION CHARACTERISTICS, 1970 Sheridan Township Newaygo County Total - Male 2,477 47.8% l , 184 27,992 48.9% 13,685 Source: U.S. Census, 1970. Median % Under % Over Age Age 18 Age 65 Female \>/hite Negro Other 52.2% 1,293 99.6% 0.2% 2,466 6 0.2% 5 26.6 40.7% 5.0% 51. 1% 97.5% ,. 9% 14,307 27,298 531 0.6% 163 27.8 38.8% 11.6% -2 () - �' '-I -I ~ I I I I -I HOUSING The type and number of dwelling uni ts within any community reveal much about the living preferences of local residents. The ability to project numbers and types of d1·1ell ing uni ts into the future vJill detel"flline land needs for housing. SELECTED HOUSING STATISTICS Table 15 presents information on housing existing in 1970 by type and occupancy. It reveals that in 1970 there were 797 year-round housing units, of which 710 were occupied. This is an overall vacancy rate of 11 %. Of the occupied units, 614 or 86% were owner-occupied and 96 or 14o/ were renter-occupied. Table 16 presents residential construction data for the past six years (19701975) derived from building permit applications. Unfortunately, the data available does not allow analysis by housing type. It is therefore included with the warning that it may not reflect a complete picture of construction trends. Table 17 indicates that in 1970 only about 4 percent of the housing units in Sheridan Township were connected to public sewer. These are homes along the north end of the lake. Plans exist to provide public sewer around Fremont Lake. This goal is highly desirable and will aid in the protection of the recreational potential of the lake. Table 18 reveals that 47 (7 ~) homeowners had no automobile in 1970. This is unusually high in a community of population so dispersed as Sheridan . Hopefully, these households are located close to the Fremont City limits and are not inconvenienced by this lack of transportation. In addition, the table shows that sa: of households had l automobile, 32% of households had 2 automobiles, and 4c• had three or more automobiles. Tables 19 and 20 contain the rental or value distribution of households in Sheridan Township. The greatest percentage of rental households paid $90-99 per month in 1970. Ho;•1ever, 27 .; paid no cas:1 rent. It can be seen that 3"~ of owner-occupied households were valued at less than $5,000 in 1970. Further, t he medi an value of 01ner-occupied households was $73,385 in 1970. -21- �II II II -II II ~ -I -I I I I Table 21 classifies housing by parcel use and reveals that 34% of housing units are on parcels of 10 acres or more, 5% of housing units are in commercial buildings: or have some sort of home occupation, and 61 % of housing units are on other parcels, most liKely conventional residential lots and parcels less than 10 acres in area. Single Family 2 Family 3-4 Family Mobile Home Tota 1 Units TABLE 15 HOUSING BY TYPE AND OCCUPANCY - 1970 Total Total Owner Total Occupied & Vacant Units Vacant Units Occupied Units 741 82 581 26 5 10 7 0 0 23 23 0 797* 87 614 Total Renter Occuei ed Units 78 11 7 a 96 * +25 vacant seasonal units Source: U.S. Census, 1970. TABLE 16 RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION 1970-1975 ~ Single Family 2 Family 3-4 Family Mobile Home Total Source: 1970 N.A. N.A. N.A. N.A. 1971 20 N.A. N.A. N.A. 1974 7 N.A. N.A. N.A. 1975 13 N.A. N.A. N.A. N.A. 20 18 14 7 Sheridan Township Building Permits 13 1972 18 N.A. N.A. N.A. 1973 14 N.A. N.A. N.A. Total 1/ l/76 813 26 7 48 894 TABLE 17 COUNT OF OCCUPIED AND VACANT YEAR-ROUND HOUSING UNITS BY TE NURE BY TYPE OF SEWAGE DISPOSAL Total Occupied & Total Owner Vaca nt Year-Round Occueied Occueied Public Sewer 28 28 19 Septic Tank or Cesspool 758 672 578 Other Means 6 6 6 Source: U.S. Census, 1970. -22- Renter Occueied 9 94 a �• • -II -I I I I I I I I I -I None l Automobile 2 Automobiles 3 Automobiles or More Source: TABLE 18 COUNJ OF OCCUPIED UNITS BY TENURE BY NUMBER OF AUTOMOBILES AVAILABLE Owner Total Occupied Occupied 47 47 334 72 227 196 31 26 26 0 TABLE 19 COUNT OF RENTER-OCCUPIED UNITS FOR WHICH RENT IS TABULATED BY MONTHLY GROSS RENT -23- 0 406 U.S. Census, 1970. Less than 530 $30 - ~39 540 - $49 $50 - $59 $60 - $69 $70 - $79 $80 - $89 $90 - $99 $100 - $119 $120 - $149 $150 - $199 $200 - $249 $250 - $299 $300 or More Without Payment of Cash Rent Source: U.S Census, 1970. Renter Occupied 0 0 0 0 6 6 7 18 7 0 0 0 0 0 16 �-II I -II II -I I I I TABLE 20 COUNT OF OWNER-OCCUPIED UNITS BY VALUE Less than $5,000 $5,000 - $7,499 $7,500 - $9,999 $10,000 - $12,499 $12,500 - $14,999 $15,000 - $17,499 $17,500 - $19,999 $20,000 - $24,999 $25,000 - $34,999 $35,000 - $49,999 $50,000 or More Source: U.S. Census, 1970. TABLE 21 HOUSING BY PARCEL USE AND TENURE Total (Occupied & Vacant) Tota 1 (Occupied) Owner Occupied Renter Occupied 10 Acres or More 250 217 181 36 I I I -~ 10 40 50 68 48 34 36 41 24 14 5 -24- Commercial or Medical Estab. 39 35 30 5 All Others 452 407 370 37 �I I -~ ~ -I I I I I I I I I I -I • HOUSING PROJECTIONS Projecting housing demand is an extremely risky undertaking. Traditional preference patterns may changi overnight due to economic conditions or changes in preferred lifestyle. Very little can be done by local government to control such shifts beyond land use planning and zoning. Even if zoning controls discourage certain types of housing through complex restrictions, if such housing is popular in the marketplace there will be tremendous pressures upon local government to accommodate such demand. This may take the form of litigation or public protest by developers. In any case, a community which chooses to fight change rather than anticipate changes and adapt to them will not achieve · the best in planning. If population grows at the rate projected in the previous section to about 3,850 in the year 2000, the housing supply will naturally increase proportionally. Just what proportion it is impossible to say with any accuracy. There are two major factors which influence housing supply. One is the household size (this has been declining in recent years), and the other is the household preference. As has been noted, preference is determined largely by economic and lifestyle patterns. The projections contained here, therefore, will extend present conditions, present trends, and anticipated trends. Presently, 93% of Sheridan Township housing is single family, 3% is mobile homes, and 4% is 2-4 family multiple. As sewers become more readily available it can be expected that a higher proportion of multiple family living units will be constructed. In addition, it is possible that another mobile home park could develop. No breakdown of housing types erected is available for the past 5 years, therefore recent trends are not clear. For purposes of projection, a reasonable estimate of housing proportions is established as: 80 % single family, 15 % multiple family, and 5%mobile homes which will exist in 2000. We must also make an assumption concerning household size which shall be that the average size of all new households between 1975 and 2000 will be 3.0 persons. -25- �. II I -I I I I I I I I I I I I ~ Single Family Multiple Family Mobile Homes Total TABLE 22 SHERIOJI.H TOWNSHIP HOUSING PROJECTIONS 1970 - 2000 Year Totals 1990 1985 1980 1975 1970 1002 951 899 813 741 85 67 49 33 33 45 38 30 23 23 1995 1048 106 55 2000 1093 129 64 1132 1209 1286 - 797 869 979 1056 Table 22 reveals that in the next 25 years the number of housing units in Sheridan Township will likely increase from 797 in 1975 to 1286 in 2000, an increase of 489 units. Distribution of housing types will vary and the projection reflects a gradual attainment of the year 2000 proportions. -26- �-I I I -I -I I I I LAND USE One of the most important steps in the planning process is the collection and mapping of detailed inform 9tion on existing land use. The land use map illustrates graphically those developments which presently exist. It should not be confused with the land use plan which will indicate optimum arrangements of land uses in the future. Land use patterns develop according to geographic location, topographic, economic, social and cultural influences. The early location of a store, the routing of a street or highway, construction of sanitary sewer facilities, and many other factors have an important effect on the shape of existing and future land use patterns. Analysis of present conditions and trends can assist in predicting what will occur in the future. The positive and negative aspects of past land use decisions or developments must be recognized in order to avoid past mistakes and plan for desirable orderly growth in the future. The existing land use information was obtained by field survey of the entire Township by Planning Commission members during the spring of 1976. CLASSIFICATION For purposes of this study, all existing land uses within the township have been classified into one of seven categories. For clarity in understanding the categories, the follm-1ing brief descriptions of each category are provided. In preparing the information on land uses within the township, only land actually in use at the time of the survey was calculated. There remain other parcels planned or zoned for a specific use but which were still undeveloped. Residential: Any structure intended for occupancy by one family including all accessory buildings normally associated with the principal building. In rural areas where a house may be associated with a farm or is in a sparsely developed area, one acre was calculated for that land use, the balance is considered undeveloped or agricultural. Mobile homes are considered separately. Since only 7 multiple family and 26 duplex uni ts existed at the ti me of the survey, these have been included in the residential category. -27- - - - - -- ---- �I I I Mobile Home Residential: Any mobile home intended for occupancy and all land, accessory buildings, and streets contained within a mobile home park. -I Public: Any publicly owned buildings or property. Includes township hall, parks, libraries, fire stations, drainage ponds, cemeteries, etc., and any buildings or property owned and used bv a school district or educational institution. City owned land is desi~nated separately. I Semi-Public: Any building or property owned by a non-profit organization or generally open to public use. Includes golf courses, churches, clubs, camps, public utility buildings, etc. -I I I I I I I I I I I I Commercial: Land used by establishments providing commodities or services to the general public including retail and services, motels, commercial recreation, and all necessary accessory uses including parking. This category also includes offices. Transportation: Includes all road, highway, and railroad rights-of-way. Agricultural or Undeveloped: All lands used for active farming, woodlots, orchards, and all vacant, undeveloped land. -28- �I I I I I I I -I I I I I I I I I I LAND USE ANALYSIS Figure 6 depicts existing land use distribution within the Township. Table 23 lists the approximate atres of each land use type and its proportion of the total Township land. Sheridan Township is primarily a rural residential community. Development around Lake Fremont and within a mile of the City of Fremont can be described as suburban in character. South of 64th Street and west of Fitzgerald the Township is sparsely developed and rural; any development is primarily sinqlP family residential. There are almost no scattered mobile homes. However, there is one small park of about 20 trailers located adjacent to the City limits. Sheridan Township contains slightly less than 35 square miles of the original 36 square mile Township. The City of Fremont has occupied 740 acres or 1.16 square miles. Therefore, there are 22,300 square acres of land in the Township. Of the total, only 2,640 are developed with urban uses, or are owned by the City of Fremont. This leaves 19,660 acres in agricultural, woodlots, or vacant 1and. Only 11 % of Sheridan Township is developed. Of the developed land, 28% is used as residential, 27 ~ is used for public or semi-public purposes, 2% is used for commercial or industrial purposes, and 45% is used for transportation (streets, highways, railroad, airport). At this time, land uses are fairly well located. Scattered single family residential uses may create problems, but the location of commercial and the mobile home park near the City is good. Development remains quite sparse south of 42nd Street, which should allow the planned extension of M-82 to proceed with a minimum disruption to Township residents. The probable route is along 80th Street. The location of the City of Fremont has dictated growth patterns to a great extent, as has the transportation system. A large amount of residential development has occurred along M-82. In addition, the desirability of Fremont Lake has resulted in heavy development along its shoreline. Some of this development is serviced by public sewer; the entire lake perimeter is planned for sewer service. Development can be expected to continue to grow outward from the City and around the lake. -29- �-----------------••1 Sheet Title ...... . ·-·· :,: o.,,1t1 • • '.!__Iii!_! I 11 Le ge nd [:I Residential - ~ ............... ... . . . ·i, (J· . .. I . .""'-·· I... .. !W-"......J ~ .........11~ • Existing Land Use •• ·••- ~ •- _IJ";"~-•--• ~L"""" k -'1.Mobile Home ';':jl :1: :·•\ 1111 r "?' .I : 11111111:: ::, I ... ~I• ~ • '. E," y_JJ1 • •y .,.. ?1{ . IIIIIIIJ Public I -:,. .Ii,' ~I• CJ Commercial .,. \' It r;:j City Property • ·:1· • ...., •••• •1•• D "--,~r::" ·, It •• < --,~(.) ., ·>r')iiir-r~J, . • •. / · ~ LL?1 ........ 111:,· . " / } ~ . ; I _.... I _,,1~•- ~ Ag. & Undeveloped Sheridan Township .,"""1 _· · , ,<J, t. N ewaygo County, Michigan land planning study •..,-. ~ • 4) ~ ~ •Ii §§ ·.. ' .•·_.•:,.: '. _ . ,,, .· ~ I Semi - Public ~i. ti• G••p.nic: !i, c a l ■ li~"~lJlJl FIG. 6 -,north sheet no. �~ I I I I I I I -I • • - II TABLE 23 EXISTING LAND USE - SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP, 1976 Land Use Acres % Developed Acres % Total Acres Residential One and Two Family (Platted Areas) (Scattered) Mobile Homes Multiple Family 730 28% 3% 210 510 10 8% 19% 1% 1% 2% 0% Public/Semi-Public Public (Township) Public (City) Semi-Public 680 210 460 10 27% 8% 19% 0% 3% 1% 2% 0% 60 2% 0% Transportation Roads (90 miles) Railroads Airport 1 , 170 720 50 400 45% 28% 2% 15% 5% 3% 0% 2% TOTAL DEVELOPED LAND 2,640 100% 11 % Agriculture/Undeveloped Agricultural (cultivated) Woodlots/Orchards Vacant/Undeveloped Open \·Ja ter 4,060 4,980 9,590 1,030 18% 22% 44% 5% TOTAL UNDEVELOPED LAND 19,660 89% TOTAL ACRES 22,300 100% Commercial -31- �-, - I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I - ZONING Present and future zoning i£ of great importance in planning. Zoning is the legal tool with which the township may regulate growth and development in order to provide a desirable community environment. Through zoning the public seeks assurance of: l. Protection of property values. 2. Control of population density. 3. Control of hazardous areas such as flood plain. 4. Control of exposure to adverse environmental influences such as traffic noise, smoke, dirt, and lack of ventilation and sunlight. 5. Provision of convenient areas for commercial and other service facilities. 6. A more efficient environment, in terms of municipal service costs, private transportation costs, and costs of public utilities. 7. Maintenance of aesthetic harmony in land and building development. 8. Protection of the economic base and provision for its expansion, growth and development. Table 24 lists the total amount of land zoned by category of use and the amount currently in use. Category "R" Residential "C " Commercial "M" Manufacturing & Industri al TABLE 24 LAND USE & ZONING - SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP, 1976 Total Total Total Acres Used Non-Conforming Acres Zoned Acres Used 20,595 320 1,430 80 20 60 355 30 30 -32- �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I ENVIRONMENT Land use planning is more than merely locating various new developments in compatibility with each other. If the plan is to be truly rational it should first recognize the physical capability of the land to accept development. The constraints placed upon development by the environment are real and can become a key for decision making and land use location judgements. The process is quite simple. It first assumes that any area of the Township could be developed if the willingness exists to make the economic and social trade-offs required. Secondly, it assumes that, at least on a general level, the tradeoffs or costs can be identified. Thirdly, it suggests that first priority for development be given to those lands which will necessitate the fewest number of social or economic trade-offs or costs. The environmental data collected in this section has been obtained from the U.S. Soil Conservation District maps, U.S. Geological Survey topographic maps and from aerial photography and infrared photography obtained from the N.A.S.A. Remote Sensing Project at Michigan State University. It is presumed that certain lands have higher social and economic costs if developed. To the extent that these can be mapped, those remaining lands available for development will become known. Areas to avoid include: 1. Lands with slopes in excess of 12%, which may suffer soil erosion problems if developed. 2. Wetlands and marshes, which aid in the recharge of ground waters thus preserving water supply, and which are often wildlife habitat areas. 3. Woodlands, which if developed should be carefully managed to preserve their aesthetic as well as drainage control features. 4. Lands with poorly drained soils, which are not conducive to development without public sewers; which may be costly to construct, yet without sewers the pollution of surface or sub-surface waters could occur. 5. Lands with high agricultural capability, which if located outside of the intensively urbanizing area may be preserved from development and reserved for agricultural use. -33- �,--- I -I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I SLOPE AND TOPOGRAPHY Figure 7 illustrates those lands in Sheridan Township having slopes in excess of 4%. Lands with slopes less than 5% are generally considered ideal for development, requiring minimal, if any, grading. Lands with slopes ranging from 5-12% can be developed with careful grading and soil conservation measures. Lands with slopes in excess of 12% should be avoided since grading is both costly and can potentially result in soil erosion problems. Slope was calculated using the U.S.G.S. topographic map covering Sheridan Township. Topograohic analysis indicates that the highest points are in the northeast corner of the Township (where the City of Fremont has developed) and in the northwest corner of the Township which remains agricultural. The lowest points lie along the branches of Rrooks Creek in the south central part of the Township. Therefore, when planning for sanitary sewers which generally function on the gravity flow principle, practically any area of the Township could be served. However, the present location of the treatment facility will limit development to areas north of it, unless lift stations are used . WETLANDS AND MARSHES Figure 8 illustrates lands in Sheridan Township covered by standing water year round or seasonally, in addition to showing swampy or marshy areas. vJetlands have potential for groundwater recharge, in some cases recreation, and as wildlife habitat. It is not too difficult to discourage development in these areas since filling and draining them can be quite expensive. However, such development must be discouraged as not in the best interests of the entire Township. WOODLANDS Figure 9 illustrates varying types of vegetation in Sheridan Township as derived from interpretation of aerial photographs available through the N.A.S.A. Remote Sensi ng Project at M.S.U. It shows forested woodlands areas, and open grasslands or developed areas. Obviously the majority of the area of the Tm·mship is under active agricultural use either as cropland, orchard, or pasture. A policy decision may be made to preserve the best agricultural land available if desired. This map, in con-34- �.................. .. -.. ..--.. .. -. -.. -.. . . -.. l Sheet Title Slope Analysis . •:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:•:•. ::ill: : : il!ili'. : Legend (?;:·:•·· ~ D 1 --.•. :. --\ ·~. .. ... ')" \I (/ ,:\:-; ,,, Less than 5% slope [{j 5-12% slope tm ~ Greater than 12% 1. .:::::::::-·:l--· •:•t.· ·\t/ : -·:::)ff} I Sheridan Township Newaygo County. Michigan . i•: · ·. Hitt I .------ . =: · :'.;~;;::;;. , -~ · :: ~•· ·.•~ ~ .::-· ,:~: ~ i'-~ ·)")··· l.~ :....._;:::· ❖;-•, :::!:••~:::•!: ·,>;•~······ .·,:~!.~·~•!:•:• ~::•· ... .)~-· land planning study ., .... filJ ,. '.' I d ,,L' ' ......,.,, -. ••··.•Morro G,•Pflic Sc:eJe i1~r0Jw FIG. 7 1-north sheet no. �.. .. .. .. .. - .. .. - - - - - - - - - - Sheet T i lle Wetlands ,1; {:/{/::-:-·- -~Leg end /(\/j ~::-:· .~•::::;:.;· ·.·\ . .-................. .-:•.···=·=·········~· •.. •:=:~ ~\ · •"•························• .. ,.:-:-:•:•:•:•:•:•:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-. "- :I.. ·-:-: .., . ~ , 1 I . " r . ... y • - . :a.-· ~,◄ '6,•·······································1~ t••·····································•·-,,·..·.·. ,:!;::-:::::::::•~~;5;::::=:~::::::::::: •• ··:::: .. ~::::::!:!:-:-:::::::.:=:::::::::::::: :::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::.:::::::::: :.:.: ''" '" ~ I '•:·· J h' I I.:: Open Water .. . J,.====================~ ""t-ir:~:~===t :~~=i::::: .;:-:::::\ : -:-:-· ~ k::::J Marsh or Swamp : ) ? ., :h n -:.I .:, ~ 8 .· • .··1 . -:-;.· .J', I I •~ I I .,,,.,, t-,.. . L q, ) ,. ~--·.· ~&# s~ ( ·.·.:-:::•; ::::::::,.•. ·:: I ,,.r ·::::•·· Sheridan Township N ew aygo County, Michigan land planning study •I -' - "- ~:r~:; . - ~ .,j. . H ,,j , ~ -,,,,.,..,..- •... "'c,., , 'lt• ~1nnr7 n n UUU,, ILJI IU ! ru Gr iptuc 'Sc•I• FIG.8 -r- north sheet no. �--- -- ------- 1 1111 11111 11111 11111 11111 Ill Sheet Tille Vegetation __.:_, I: ~··' ❖ .~J;: :;:;:;:;::::: ..,. :::;:;:;:~:;::. .... ::: e: - ■•♦•♦•♦ ' -I '<,11\H ·==::::::::::~. ··••···•· ! .... ~=:::::. ~~::; ~;:::!:!! Legend ~ ~ Woodland ~~ _._ ;:~}· ~ .•.. D ~ ;~:::;~:::~:-.~!1 ~ :;~,m_:':~; '-,.) ;I.:.;;_.._.,._::~:•:.~ ,~ }; ·•-:, ·1 : -······=; •. •~;:~ .:::: "·' ~pen and Developed Land ,::-:, ♦:♦.•• ~• ··~' ~I ~:!- ··••:•.•· •. ,.~:=:::::::: -~•!•:-· •'· {:~-- ····· -,:::; ,;::ff:-' !!1 .. ~::~:~: : •;.;•, \:::::::::::: ·········•· ,·····=····· .... ···•· :::::::::;: l.••-~.,_•,.• ~-•·#\ .• ~ .-.. -·-- ~- /:=~-,-J-, 1'••::::.:❖!❖, -"'*"-:,:•!• -·•-·❖·••~-.-.---~ ;; -~,,,....., ., i:~. . ,:,\ ·*:$1"<:>=><-r-:"fl:,~. Jllt.%}_.:~ '¼t ,;,.-') .•. • ,:,:.:;:•:•.:::':~.• ' -*-:-~::,-, :-~· ••• • 0.,. "'" ' ..........,. ~~~;~;§~ • I • ••, •• .~ , t;•~-· ;, :::::::::::::::::$-:::•~·· '•··=·=·-·-··.···)!•:•,• ::::::::::::::::=~·::::: ···-~·;:~;-. ' "' • Sheridan Township Newaygo County, Michigan .,_. #¾a, ❖:❖:,,,, ••~:-·-·. land planning study - oo .. ••• --~•-❖:❖::,:-:•~-:-:, .-..-;•;••• •.•. . •. ·•;:;:;:;:;t•::::: •:=:•::::::,:•::::=!,::::~:❖:•:::::• ~-=~·=:::::-:•,:.-:-:;,:,:•::::;:::.<::,:-:,::::,:-:•:•,•·· .,............. . .• . ...... :•:•. '•:•.•···=···1··•:•.······ ,,:-:•.•· .......,...... ······ ········ ..... .... .. ... ..~.,.,., e,, '•"• •- •••l Guph,c Se.ti. ~&[1.J1Jl 1 FIG. 9 1-north sheet no. �... • • • • II junction with the agricultural soil capabilities map, will permit identification of those lands . The major concentration of woodlands in Sheridan Township is in the south central area along the branches of Brooks Creek. Woodlands areas absorb surface water runoff faster than any other land type. They may also function as windbreaks, and aesthetically pleasing elements of the community. Care should be taken in planning to preserve woodlands to utilize them for park and open space uses. SOILS Figure 10 depicts lands available for development without public sewers. It has been derived from the U.S.S.C.S. soil maps of Sheridan Township. Use capability has been determined based upon soil management group classifications developed by Mokma, \~hiteside, and Schneider of Michigan State University (Soil Management Units and Land Use Planning, Nov. 1974). Management groups vary depending upon the soil series and the slope of the land. Land is rated as having slight, moderate, and severe limitations to residential development without sewers. These ratings can be used to best locate future development in areas where sewers will not be available. Figure 11 depicts lands available for development with public sewers. It has also been derived from U.S.S.C.S. maps. As can be seen, if sewers are provided, a substantially greater proportion of the Township can be developed. Only the northern two-thirds has been mapped since this is considered to be the logical sewer service limit. Figure 12 depicts limitations for ngricultural use based upon soils and topography, using the same M.S.U. classification system. This map will aid in decision-making aiMed at preserving the best agricultural land from development should that be desired by the Township. -38- �~~~~~------------••1 Sheet Title Limitations to Residential Development• tr,., - ....... _Tl , j ~- = r-t ....... Legend ' J •., \ '11 ~ ~ Slight F, LJ~oderate ...,.01 ,:.,-,,,·· :/f~: r.,_ •• _,v' Osevere ....✓~ " :•. '\ t>f!")I ~f r *w i thout sewer Sheridan Township N ew aygo County, Michigan land planning study 00 " i~JflJUl H •,~._ •;; ~ \.,.-•· •:.,',' Gr•iituc- S~I• FIG.10 -,-. north she et no. �,. ............. ... ,.. .. 111 Ill 111 111 Ill Ill Ill I S/\eet Tille Limitations to Agricultural Use -w.•;m ... ·· ~t'~'❖·~ ..., r·.· .·. :-:'~~ ¾"'i!;:!f ·...1.."t~,,~~_.-;.r~ •.••.•-~•·J:7-~ --,;. _. {!&··~~·-·.·.·-r ···· .·.·.·.·.·. ~-~, :-!-:\.-:-·~:• ".~~ :.• / ~ -.f,. .. • •· r~ &c•:\.'1t ·.·.·.· .·.· .·. 5 :::::~~~;:;~.::~ l ·••:-:-:-:-:-:::-<~s :t'i§~,.:~~"-~. "f.r,r,:..,. ~!jj,'.p :,:,:-:-:-:-:-:,:,:,:-~i...~:.._'\.;..'"l.,.,..~•:<<;,::::.::::t:tZ'·~".it r.• •-, .t , . . •.•,-:•,•.•.• = ..i.J · • ·. -:~!:!:i;l!:1;;?;~: ::: ::::::::::::::· ..::::: · • · • · • - • • -••• • • "• • • • • • • • • • Legend ' f"'--;m ,;1-i1,l,.l l~l~I &light l}}j Moderate D ~ Severe Sheridan Township Newaygo County Michigan land planning study ~ ..:.:-:-::::~: : ,:::::: :: f.1•1•hlC ';r•I• · r:--: .... - FIG. 12 ~ north nn - _...___,,,,; : ~. .___.I: . ~"" shee t no. �.... -I I -I I I -~ II // ' 711 TRANSPORTATI OiJ All public roads in Sherid~n Township are maintained by the Newaygo County Road Commission, with the exception of M-82 and M-120, which are maintained by the State Department of Transportation. The long range plans of the State show M-82 extending westward through the Township in the vicinity of 80th Street. However, implementation of this plan is anticipated well into the l980's . The County Plan anticipates the relocation of M-120 through Fremont and south on vJarner Road. The roads system provides convenient access to all parts of the Township. State high\tJay M-82 is by far the heaviest traveled route in the Township. It serves "through" traffic as well as local traffic. The most heavily traveled local route is along 72nd Street, on Fitzgerald between 72nd and 80th, and on 80th west of Fitzgerald. This is obviously a popular shortcut around Fremont toward Twin Lake and Muskegon. A small airport owned by the City of Fremont is located in the Township, as are tracks of the C &O Railroad. Refer to Figure 13 Major Roads for traffic counts. ~ -42- �• • Sheet Title Major Roads 6 3800 6 6500 'r1·,..,., .. , . • "f Legend ·l, "'" t, I """ 8 I B ,.~";\ r.? 4900 C> _..··" _. <l ~ ADT-Traffic Counts ~,, C> <l 6 477 Sheridan Township ~~ '5 11 ~I I ,.. "• 293~ C> 6 168 '\., ""H> I . ., ~·"•, I" I County Primary Blocal ~ 279 495 State Trunkline . Newaygo County, Michigan •• { \ J !, - ~ land planning study t~ ,.. ,' .. .', ,· , •,. §§ •"", -· '.s~ ••, "' ""•: .. ';,, •' •.,•:.,,,.••»::,',~ Gr•~ Sc• I• 'n1JU1 FIG.13 1-north sheet no. �SANITARY SEWAGE DISPOSAL Figure 14 illustrates both• existing and proposed sanitary sewer service in Sheridan Township. As is indicated, the present service is mainly limited to the City of Fremont and the residential neighborhoods north of Lake Fremont. Proposed sewer lines will shortly provide wastewater disposal service to those lands abutting the Lake to the west and south, in the vicinity of Lake Drive - Green Avenue. -44- �• ·• Sheet T i tle Sanitary Sewer Plan %~ Legend a Existing Sewer r.:::, - c:.:.J Proposed Sewer r=7 Existing ~ Lift Station l IJ\ I r-;:-, l!!:.J Proposed Lift Station r.::m W:,;J Lagoon Irrigation Field Sheridan Township Newaygo County, Michigan land planning study ~§,, ,_.._ '"''"'"" ,,.,, ,, ''"'"""' "! ~J f·•fJI". 1.••t ll Graphic t,;,h .. L'-<, ..... ..,., .. ., ~H J Sc ■N ilM[UUl FIG.14 -,.. north sheet no. ��INTRODUCTION • An important step in the development of a comprehensive plan is the establishment of a policy plan or statement. In the formulation of such a plan, goals are arrived at in basically two ways. First, goals evolve from a desire to remedy an existing or projected problem situation. Secondly, goals may be based upon an ideal such as, What kind of community do we want Sheridan Township to be? Therefore, development of a policy plan requires close examination of perceived community needs and concerns. 11 11 POLICY DEFINED A policy may be defined as a statement of position. Sheridan Township, as a growing municipality, is undergoing change, creating significant challenges. By establishing concise policies, the Township can meet these challenges in a more definitive fashion. The policy planning process is based on the assumption that some kind of community-wide consensus of planning goals and development policies must be arrived at before realistic plans for future growth can be prepared. It further assumes that once growth goals have been agreed upon, a comprehensive plan for future growth will be more readily used by community leaders because it reflects previously accepted policies and goals. 11 11 Policy plans serve as instruments which guide the evolution of a particular community by bringing the social, physical, economic and political considerations into more meanirigful focus. BENEFIT OF POLICY STATEMENTS The process of establishing policy is an aid to clear thinking in arriving at day to day decisions. Clearly stated policy benefits Township government, business and the citizens at large. Local government, in particular, can perform more efficiently and consistently when policy is established. Many of the land use problems that government faces are recurring ones. The time necessary for considering and acting on these problems can be greatly reduced if policy guidelines have been established. Private enterprise a 1so benefits from established policy. Devel ope rs, 1andholders and real estate firms gain when specific policy statements are adopted, because they then have a clear understanding of the general rules governing future development and can make their own decisions accordingly. -47- �The public at large also benefits. By establishing policies and relating such policies to goals and solutions, public confidence in local government is enhanced. The public, too, must have a clear understanding of the rules which govern land use. Other advantages of policy statements as decision making guidelines are: l. Aid to Public Understanding and Participation: The straight-forward character of the policy statement aids public understanding of the planning process and how goals for the community are to be achieved. 2. Consistency: Clearly stated policies covering all concerns of comprehensive planning can do much to minimize the possibility of arbitrary planning decision-making. 3. Efficiency: When a growing community is frequently confronted with problems of a recurrent nature, clearly stated policies may reduce the amount of time spent on an individual project without lowering the quality of planning recommendations. 4. Coordination: The Policy Plan creates a single framework within which all aspects of government may act in concert on development proposals. 5. Stability: A Policy Plan is general by nature and thus provides an element of stability as specific proposals of the master plan are modified over time. 6. Guide to Decision-Making and Review: The Policy Plan is helpful as a guide in adopting land use controls, and to the courts in judging the fairness of specific controls in the context of an overall goal structure for community development. GENERAL POLICY STATEMENTS The following policy statements and explanations form the rationale and basis for the proposed Development Plan for Sheridan Township. Careful analysis of the physical characteristics of the Township and application of these development principles will result in an understandable and defensible land use plan. -48- �II II II II 1111 II I. SHERIDAN TOWNSHIP DEVELOPMENT PLAN Sheridan Township is in need of a land use plan for the which will serve as a guide for future development. If be effective, it must reflect the wishes and desires of the Township and be acceptable to the majority. Such a flexible and subject to continuing review. entire Township, such a plan is to the residents of plan must also be DEVELOPMENT PLAN GOAL: To provide a land use plan that is flexible, reasonable, and adequate to meet the needs and desires of Sheridan Township residents, while maintaining a consistent direction for growth which retains the rural-agricultural character of the community. DEVELOPMENT PLAN POLICIES: l. The Township will adopt a comprehensive development plan indicating areas into which specific land uses should be directed. The purpose of such a plan will be to guide development decisions of the Township Board and Planning Commission. 2. The Sheridan Township revised Zoning Ordinance will be based on the adopted Development Plan and will serve to enforce the land use policies of the Plan by means of local ordinance. 3. The Development Plan will include a streets and highways plan, establishing specific standards for setbacks from all roadways within Sheridan Township. 4. The Development Plan should acknowledge that an additional 340 households should be provided for in the twenty year time span from 1975 to 1995. This planning should recognize that a variety of housing types exist and can be properly located within the Township. • -49- �I I. LAND USE Sheridan Township is concerned about scattered, uncontrolled and disorganized growth. If such growth should occur within Sheridan Township, it would result in a massive waste of l~nd, severely affecting agricultural activity in the Township and incurring unnecessary costs for public services. A high priority has been placed on preservation of the existing acreage devoted to agricultural production. Any land use related activity causing or promoting a reduced output of food by the present ag-enterprise of Sheridan Township would be unfavorably received. A patchwork pattern of land use consisting of isolated commercial establishments or the permitting of commercial functions operating out of a residence or farm is developing throughout the Township. A means is needed to provide for such non-conforming limited uses, making them compatible with residential areas, or prohibiting the use. Sheridan Township will be experiencing certain demands and needs for residential development. It is the intent that such development be carefully considered and directed into the appropriate areas. Growth within the community is continuing at a significant rate. Consistent planning and growth policies are needed now. LAND USE GOAL: Sheridan Township desires a well-balanced land use pattern capable of meeting present and future community needs in an efficient, economical and aesthetically pleasing manner. LAND USE POLICIES: 1. To insure the continued health, safety and general welfare of the residents of Sheridan Township, both now and in the future. 2. A significant land area of Sheridan Township is particularly well suited for agricultural purposes. It shall be the policy of the Township to preserve those lands for agricultural use. 3. More economical ways of utilizing marginal farmland and wasteland should be sought, such as improved forest cover and recreation uses. 4. Maintenance of an environment that preserves and enhances existing and future residential areas and keeps Sheridan Township a safe and attractive place to live. -50- �5. Residential areas should be protected against activities which produce excessive noise, dirt and odors, or which generate heavy traffic. 6. Future single family residential construction should be directed into existing vacant pla•ts and discouraged from developing as 11 strip 11 residential areas along the roadways within Sheridan Township, or permitting the premature development of outlying areas. Such development is an inefficient use of land, and removes prime acreage from agricultural production. 7. Subdivision regulations should be adopted to guide the quality of new residential growth in the Township. In addition, it is the Township 1 s posture that all new single family development be platted in accordance with the appropriate regulations. 8. The Township encourages the development of low density multiple family units in carefully selected areas, that would be compatible in design and extent with single family residences. Such development would provide an alternate life-style for those residents of Sheridan Township so desiring one. 9. The Township will promote a healthy atmosphere for commercial development, maintaining substantial consolidated areas for commercial use, as opposed to "strip" commercial development. 10. The development of selected industry in carefully controlled locations will be encouraged. The "heavy industry" type of development, which may be incompatible with the rural residential character of the community, will be discouraged. 11. The indiscriminate mixing of land uses such as the spread of ''home occupation•• type commercial activities into residential or farming areas will be discouraged. 12. Encourage natural healthy growth in Sheridan Township providing for orderly planned development which separates residential from commercial from industrial uses. The smooth transition in intensively developed areas can be accomplished by appropriate transitional land uses or through physical buffering with open space or vegetation. -51- �III. ENVIRONMENT Sheridan Township contains a wide variety of land and natural resource features. Specifically, there exist an assortment of soil types suitable for development or agric~ltural purposes. There are substantial areas of wetlands with high water table, as well as desirable woodlands, located principally in the south-central sector of the Township. Perhaps the most dominant natural feature in the Township is that of Lake Fremont with its nearly six miles of shoreline, providing a wealth of recreation opportunities. Topography or severe slope is not of substantial concern over the majority of the Township. The major areas of gradient change occur in the stream valleys of the south-central area and the orchard lands in the northwest corner of Sheridan Township . • ENVIRONMENTAL GOAL: Sheridan Township wishes to promote the wisest use of her natural resources in preserving the environment for present and future generations. ENVIRONMENTAL POLICIES: • • l. The Township will make every effort to preserve and protect historical and scenic values and the natural beauty of the area . 2. The Township will prohibit the filling or intensive development of wetland areas, in order to minimize their disturbance, prevent loss of vegetation or wildlife and the destruction of natural habitat. 3. The Township will carefully regulate development in areas of marginal soils, high water table and near lakes in order to protect unwary land purchasers and the public from development which may cause surface or ground water pollution. 4. There are sensitive lands within the Township which should remain undeveloped, namely the stream valleys and woodlands in the southern one-third of the Township. The Township should discourage development in these areas and, if possible, establish incentives for its residents to hold such land as undeveloped. -52- ��11 II II II II II II II • • • • -~ ' THE PL~N The Comprehensive Development Plan for Sheridan Township has been developed through a process which included the collection of data describing in detail • the characteristics and constraints present in the community. This planning process also included the careful study of perceived community needs and problems, as well as the policies desired to provide direction for future Township growth. A final step in establishing the basis for a Plan is one of determining those minimum standards suitable to Sheridan Township's future development. PLANNING STANDARDS Planning Standards are not hard and fast rules for communities to follow, but rather as standards, reflect an average of what has occurred or found to work well in other communities. Such standards are furthermore indicative of the priorities or perhaps the unique circumstances of the community for which they apply. Therefore, while the standards experienced in other municipalities provide decision-making parameters, it is important that local standards be established which deal directly with the needs, preferences and unique characteristics of our community. The standards set forth in this Plan are considered appropriate to the needs of Sheridan Township . ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS In order to promote wise use of the land and to avoid future costs attributable to environmental damage, the following features should be preserved in their natural state. If development is to occur in one of these environmentally sensitive areas, then safeguards should be established within the Zoning Ordinance to minimize potential da~age: 1. Lands having slopes in excess of 12%, the development of which would promote soil erosion. 2. Wetlands, which aid in the recharge of ground waters thus preserving water supply, and which also provide wildlife habitat areas. 3. Woodlands, which if developed should be carefully managed to preserve their aesthetic as well as drainage control features. -54- �4. Prime agricultural lands, which are of particular importance to the local economy, and if developed would impact heavily on regional food/fiber production. RESIDENTIAL LAND USE STANDARDS Based upon the population and housing projections as formulated in the Background section of this document, it is possible to plan for the number of new residential living units which can be expected by the year 2000. As is indicated in Table 21, Sheridan Township can expect the construction of 489 residential units to house the anticipated increase in population. It is recommended that the following table be utilized as a guideline for directing this anticipated residential growth. -55- �• • • • • •II I II I II II TABLE 25 RESIDENTIAL STANDARDS Numbel' of Units 1975-1980 Required Acreage Number of Units 1980-2000 Required Acreage Single Family (40%) l/2 Acre per Unit 35 18 98 49 Single Family (40%) l Acre per Unit 35 35 98 98 Single Family (20%) 2 Acres per Unit 18 36 49 98 Multiple Family 6 Units per Acre 16 3 46 8 Mobile Home 7 Units per Acre 7 1 15 3 111 93 306 256 Housing Type Totals Location Standards Suggest that Residential Areas Should: 1. 2. 3. 4. Be convenient to work and leisure activities. Be protected from traffic and incompatible land uses. Be economi ca 1 to deve 1op. Avoid areas with environmental limitations to residential development. -56- �NON-RESIDENTIAL LAND USE STANDARDS Land use types other than residential should also be provided for in the Plan, including schools, commerc~al and retail development, industrial development and park land. Schools: As Sheridan Township grows in population, it can be anticipated that such growth will impact upon the Fremont School System. Based upon the assumption that each new household will generate .5 elementary students, .25 middle school students and .25 high school students, the following calculations can be made: - 489 new households, 1975-2000 . . 5 elementary pupils/HH = 244 additional students in 2000;@ 25/class 10 teaching stations needed;@ 20 teaching stations per elementary school = 1/2 new elementary school . = . 25 middle school pupils/HH = 122 additional students in 2000;@ 400500 pupils per middle school = 1/4 new middle school. - .25 high school pupils/HH = 122 additional students in 2000;@ 1,200 pupils per high school = 1/10 new high school. Commercial: Generally recognized standards for providing local retail commercial land suggests a need of 4 acres of commercial development per 5,000 population. The population as projected for the year 2000 indicates that some 3,800 individuals will reside in Sheridan Township. Furthermore, it must be recognized that the City of Fremont meets the bulk of the shopping needs of Sheridan Township residents, as well as those in the other surrounding townships. On this basis, it is unlikely that commercial development of a regional nature will occur within the Township. However, small businesses will continue to develop which serve various neighborhoods within the municipality as well as being oriented perhaps towards either agricultural production or the recreational aspects of Lake Fremont. At a minimum, the Township will need four acres of commercial land by the year 2000 to serve its residents. -57- �'-I I I I I I Location Standards Suggest that Commercial Centers Should: l. 2. Industrial: Recognized Standards for providing industrial land suggest a need for 2 acres of light industrial development per 1000 population. As with commercial development, it must be recognized that the population to be served must be considered in terms of accessibility to the employment center which means it would encompass an area greater than the boundaries of Sheridan Township. Conversely, it must also be acknowledged that competing employment centers in the region will attract portions of the total available labor market. Assuming that industrial development relates directly to Township population trends, the following standards can be utilized: Year 1976 1980 1990 2000 I I I Have sites of adequate size for shops, off-street parking, loading and landscaping. Recognize existing land use patterns to avoid incompatible situations. Total Acreage of Light Industrial 4 6 7 8 Location Standards Suggest that Industrial Areas Should: l. 2. 3. 4. Have convenient access to transportation systems, especially highways and railroads. Have adequate land with sufficient reserve for future expansion. Have adequate utilities; water, sanitary sewer, waste disposal, power. Be located so as to minimize any possible adverse effects of the industrial use in regard to adjacent non-industrial uses. _ Parks and Recreation Standards: Park size, type and location vary considerably depending upon the character and population density within a given community. As has already been established, Sheridan Township is a community rich in open space, agricultural lands and recreation resources, in particular Lake Fremont. Other items that warrant consideration when establishing standards for parks and recreation areas are: the availability of school facilities and the impact of either present or proposed open park lands or facilities within the City of Fremont. -58- �I I I -I -I I I I Standards generally recogni?ed for providing parkland suggest that 1.5 acres of playgrounds are needed per 1000 population, with a minimum playground size of two acres. Also 3.5 acres of community park area are needed per 1000 people with a desirable minimum site size of 40 acres. Relating these standards to Sheridan Township suggests that the acreage needs for p1ayground areas by the year 2000 will total approximately six acres. In addition, community park needs can be expected to total 13.5 acres also by 2000. Location Standards Suggest that Park and Recreation Areas Should: 1. Avoid physical barriers such as heavily traveled roads and railroads. 2. Use natural areas having certain aesthetic advantages where possible. 3. Be conveniently located, accessible, sufficiently large and properly developed. 4. Where possible, should be provided in combination with schools. STREETS AND HIGHWAY STANDARDS I I ' As development occurs, it will become increasingly necessary to require substantial building setbacks along Township roads and highways. This is essential primarily for safety reasons, however substantial savings may be experienced in right-of-way acquisition costs as the roadways are expanded. The following standards are applicable to the streets and highways plan contained within this report: -59- �I I I I -I I I I STREET SETBACK PLAN Classification Setback From R-0-H Setback From Centerline 66' 25' 58' 66' 40 1 73' Desired R-0-W Function , Subdivision (Plats Only) County Local Provides direct access to individual abutting properties County Primary Moves through traffic at moderate speeds and volumes to and from major arterials l 0() 1 so· 100' State Highways Moves through traffic at high speeds and high volumes between major traffic generators 15()' sn• 125 1 The standards as discussed within this section have been utilized in preparing the Comprehensive Development Plan indicated on Figure 15. I -60- �Sheet Tille Master Street and Highway Plan Legend ~ E3 Co~nty Local 140 setback I fiiii1 County Primary t:.:.:.:I l 50' setback! r;;;;1 t.=.J State Highway 150' setback! /1 ......... Sheridan Township Newaygo County, Michigan land planning study § §.,."·•• '«••o•"" ,. •.,,., -.o••OUHO ·••11 •◄ •I> ...., , . , ....... ,:, ...,, ........ G1•phie Sc.ale ~mIU1Jl FIG. 15 -,north sheet no. �•• Sheet Title Comprehensive Development Plan Legend □ Agricultural and Undeveloped Q Rural Residential f.»:1 ~ Single Family I low density I lfflffl Single Family Wtm I medium density) ~ Multiple Family § Mobile Home llfj Commercial m Industrial ~ l.iliifil Public,Semi-Public Recreatlonal l'\i::rn City of Fremont Sheridan Township Newaygo County, Michigan land planning study ~ ~4:f " ,-~:-~..!,,:,-,•;•;:,~!~"'.'!.:.::.:··~~:\\~ G1•phie Sc•I• ~ nnn ~ r;-1 -U UIJ. LJ LJ ~ 1north sheet no. ��IMPLEMENTATION This Plan will be a successful guide for the future development of Sheridan • Township only if it is continually used in the decision-making process of citizens, developers, and the Township. This plan should be officially adopted by the Township Planning Commission and recognized by the Township Board. The Board has the power to implement the plan through the passage of ordinances and the expenditure of public funds. There are basically five steps to take in implementing the Plan, which are generally: land use controls, financial aids, general government programs, intergovernmental cooperation, and citizen participation. The Plan should be implemented through the use of zoning and subdivision regulation. The continual updating and review of the Zoning Ordinance is essential. Without good zoning there is little protection for Township property owners from new development or little guidance to developers desiring to build within the Township. The Township, through its participation in federal or state grant programs and its expenditure of funds for public improvements, can encourage certain types of development in the desired areas of the community. For example, federal grant programs provide for development of park land in the Township. Thirdly, the Township can implement the Plan through its local programs, such as a Capital Improvements Program. The C.I.P. is a capital budget extending for, usually, 6 years ahead. Based upon the Development Plan, the Township Board can foresee the need for improvements in certain neighborhoods or can encourage development through the expenditure of public funds. Another important aspect of local government programs is the ongoing planning program. The Plan must be constantly used in making decisions, it must be re-evaluated often, and kept up-to-date from the most current information. The Township must recognize its role in the region and Newaygo County and with the City of Fremont, and continue to cooperate with other governments conducting programs affecting Township residents. To this end, these governments and agencies should be provided with copies of the Plan and consulted concerning implementation of the Plan. -64- �• • • - Finally, the Plan will only be successful if Township residents get behind it and support its goals and suggestions for improved community living conditions. Residents hav~ already helped through their willingness to contribute their talents on committees or their ideas at public meetings or hearings. Such involvement should be encouraged in the future. To involve Township residents in community decision-making will require a commitment of the Planning Commission and the Township Board to disseminate information to the people on a regular basis through the news media and various public forums, so that the public will have the necessary background information to make rational decisions about how they want their community to develop. -65- �~L _j~ I, .... . 7 ,, -:::/ - - T... COMM !: I _J ~ -~"' -... . ~ -.-~ , I I l. 2 .u . J i- --:. ' - -- , q- ~- ~ ~L I J ...-,t--'-~~- r ~ ':;( r, · - ,,, . ~ ' / ',.,, t '--~' ~ - ·r--"'""' ' I 11 p \5 , ~t .. < RR r RR .. _ _ s~o I dd - --I C - ' Tt-, 7 ~~IL~ □ I ';. • SF r 12 I D ·.-r ~ ( I tu • " ~I I . 1, •••• •il I \ 0 \ \ ~, ·.ul i1 ,r======:!~===;===,:::~-~ ~ . ::: -11 I , "/ / j\ 1/11_.~ ....SHERIDAN CHARTER ! ) 1------+-----'. \ -1 ·••n••TE• - 1AG , / 2 -1 f ... _ Tlu:,u u [Nl TOWNSHIP f--=? -~ - I" L- \I'' V" ;TIT;' 1,'Ti'"im\;;; f 06 ~ ~ir~j~~'.!J, -~ ~:=J I 1~-f_ll 1 Y 1f ( ,,,,- (!~T _--111 . , ,- .. REVl!:ION DATES DATI ao"AD Of APPEALS RR Agriculture Rural Residential SFLD SFMD MF Single Family( d~~":11y) Single Family( d~"s11y ) Multiple Family COMM IND p Mobile Home Commercial Industrial Public MH . Ci 1 AG ~ n r :1 1 4 - 28-19 I 1.--- '? ~~"~ i ~ ~ \t rr t~~11 I I I l NT {" . "-.I 7. I f r ,~, ~ :~ '·'\ . ,., • 0 rl -:1 --- ... OF 1~--+"1-~----< I '---lh--- · - ~. I ) { ) i l\ T -' I 18 ~ -•, I - 1 7 \ t' RR :11 g_----(,,~;r . -----t- C EN~ T ERV /' -' i:t ! ~Tr -·71I~"" l .M Id 1 ~, r~ - . l ,< M' ~~~~~ ~ ---, _ - J[ ~,. \ c T-j ----- .__ "-, .. ,, 2 + ~r. ) JAG r, ,--,1 ___JL_ 1 I·, ~- RR - 1 j I __Ji----+--__J i - - '_ ~bH,L I ip·- -~ I i i •. ~ MOORE & BRUGGINK CJJN5U.JNjENCi1'&15.IJV"1)~ JI\NoMIS GWN«) IN'IQS,W:, ""8CK,Qfr( MICJ«i,Y\I � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sheridan-Twp_Comprehensive-Plan-Materials_1976-1989 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheridan Township Planning Commission, Sheridan Township, Newaygo County, Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1976-12 Title A name given to the resource Comprehensive Development Plan Description An account of the resource The Comprehensive Development Plan for Sheridan Township was prepared by Planning Consultant Services Incorporated in December 1976. A Comprehensive Development Plan Map from April 26, 1989 from the Board of Appeals is included on the final page. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Planning Consultant Services, Inc. (consultant) Subject The topic of the resource Comprehensive plan publications Sheridan Township (Mich.) Newaygo County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c1d6a608bdc26f81f329a8ac2b970e0.mp4 037974ae2b2b2e0527a0656750fe78c8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/919114b4f51d034d98f244ffa55188cb.pdf ce3001cd8386a49925f7c3f49260043d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Don Sheridan Length of Interview (00:48:10) Background Born in Allendale Township, Michigan, lived on a farm; 1926 Attended Tuttle School until 8th grade, then to Allendale High School (1941), and Coopersville High School (1943) Had to ride with a cousin to Coopersville until they finally got their first school bus It wasn‟t uncommon for most kids to graduate in 8th or 10th grade; during the depression, more would drop out Had an uncle who had ten children and had their land foreclosed on them during the Depression; Sheridan had a brother and two sisters Farm was self-sustaining Would trade goods with stores for groceries Finished high school in June 1943 Had already signed up with the Navy before graduating Was aware of what was going on in Europe, but not deeply involved Remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor when in the barn listening to the radio Navy (00:03:30) Enlisted in his senior year in high school; Navy V-12  A program for graduating students, led to officer‟s training  Didn‟t go through with it, needed higher marks Went into the Navy  Was a member of the Sea Scouts in high school, had little boating experience After enlisting, sent to George Williams College in Chicago; YMCA college (00:04:45) � There for eight months  Training, basically, equivalent to one year in college  Still was in the officer training program, at the time  Much more confined experience  Did some physical training: marching, etc.  Others in the program were from the mid-west, right out of high school  His grades took him to boot camp Sent to Great Lakes for basic training  Since he grew up on the farm, acclimating to the early hours and physical training wasn‟t too hard  Discipline was never an issue Pre-schooling for Radio Technicians in the Naval Armory in Michigan City, Indiana; 4-week course (00:07:20) Was sent there even though his weakest subject was math Bottom third would be sent back to Great Lakes to choose another school Chose signal school, better at communicating Learned Morse code, Semaphores, flag signaling, etc.; mostly visual Radio was still in its early stages, no short range radio Primarily used Morse code (with a light) Had to be able to decode 15 words per minute Fall 1944, completed training �Assigned (00:09:20) Sent to another 4-week school for specialty training in Merchant‟s signaling system for convoys; in Great Lakes More specialized in civilian communication, different protocol Assigned a crew at the Armed Guard Center and sent to a ship at the harbor of a loading dock in Philadelphia Went to the armed guard center for about a week (Boston) Naval Guards performed gunnery and communications Needed to know codes for both merchant marine ships and naval ships, communication in a convoy S.S. John M. Harland, liberty ship: 450 feet long 10,000 dwt, “Kaiser Coffins”, mass produced (five days from start to finish), highly expendable (00:11:35) A new group of Naval Guards going in, about 12-14 men  Two 3inch 50 caliber machine guns, eight 20 mm anti-aircraft guns  Some other ships had heavier guns, 4 inch or 5 inch, with a crew of 20-25 people  Led by “90-day wonders” (Ensign or Lieutenant J.G); one was a lawyer and older gentleman  Four bunks in the compartment, not too crowded Went down the river from Philadelphia to Chesapeake Bay stayed there for three days to assemble a convoy (100 ships) (00:14:25) Early November, headed for Straits of Gibraltar; some of the stormiest weather when first heading out Fortunately Sheridan didn‟t get seasick, but most others did; not too worried about capsizing Had morning and evening watches, alternated signaling hours  Still on duty during storms; preferred being able to see the waves than feel the motion Remembers the crew being calm about it, was routine The rest of the voyage was relatively smooth afterward, no U-boat scares �Very little communication with the escort Would get messages, had to pass the messages „down the line‟ Ships were usually several hundred yards apart Middle East, North Africa (00:18:40) After the Straits of Gibraltar, the convoy broke up to sail independently Went through the Suez Canal, never lost steerage way until the Red Sea  Entered at Port Said, Egypt  Saw incredible sights of other smaller boats sailing, primarily skiffs and rowboats  Continued down the Red Sea Stopped at Aden, Captain and Lieutenant went ashore Proceeded around the Arabian Peninsula and into the Persian Gulf Made port at Khorramshar, Iran (Persia at the time) where cargo would be sent to Russia  Trucks, crates, lubricating oil, etc.  Everyone allowed ashore  Segregated from the civilian/local population, not a very populated location  Spent two weeks unloading Proceeded upriver Shatt al-Arab River (juncture of Tigris and Euphrates) up to Basra, Iraq and loaded barley destined for Sicily (00:22:18) Iraq was considered the „bread-basket‟ of the Middle East While there, the merchant crew demanded they be paid if they ran the life boat as a liberty launch Instead Sheridan steered the life boat himself Seldom went ashore (in Basra) Went reverse route and through the Suez again, never set foot on the African continent (Egypt) (00:23:50) �Sent to Catania, Sicily and unloaded barely, then to Palermo, Sicily where an Army Truck Tire Plant there Proceeded to North Africa, for one night, to load ballast; then home Catania [Sicily] was a lovely city, about the size of Grand Rapids, during spring Bum boats would buy cigarettes from the men for $20 a carton (they cost only 50 cents), had a lot of spending money Merchant marine sailors were a congenial crew, sometimes worked with them; 40 men Close to Mt. Etna, didn‟t do much sight-seeing Pacific Northwest (00:26:30) Went back to the States, picked up a convoy in Gibraltar  A routine voyage; when entering the Gulf Stream (visible due to the water‟s change in color), the convoy would move into a diamond-shape pattern due to its strong currents, then back to a square-shape pattern Back in the U.S. April ‟45, given a four-day leave; the ship had to be fumigated because cockroaches were in the barley Went to Norfolk Naval Supply Depot, to get essentials for the ship Back to a convoy down to the Panama Canal Three days west of the Canal when the War in Europe ended (00:28:25) Went to a Naval supply depot in Pearl Harbor, there for a week Back to the Pacific Northwest, Puget Sound area Started to load lumber around that area, several small towns Down to the Columbia River area, then in the Washington area 4th of July ‟45, headed west, again by themselves  Didn‟t have much to do as Signalmen Beautiful voyage, very peaceful, would sleep on deck on a hammock Didn‟t do much, had a record player, would read; nothing organized �All the stewards‟ crew was from mainland China (00:30:30)  Steward‟s Mate would deliver them food, would order food from them, as well; ate very well  Had a totally different culture from the other crew, but got along very well  Rest of the crew were generally Americans Took the lumber to Manila (Philippines) (00:31:45)  Arrived 1st August, went ashore  Anchored out in Manila Bay  Knew a high school buddy who was in the Army there; stayed with his bunch for a few days  Manila was badly damaged, Japanese snipers still there When the war ended, was a lot of commotion; bells, guns, etc. Unloading lumber (same night as the end of the war with Japan) and a ship across the pier was unloading beer (00:33:33) Had quite a party with them Didn‟t see much of the civilian population there, except when he was with his Army buddy A couple weeks afterwards, loaded Army equipment (trucks, tanks) and took it down to Panay Island in a city of Iloilo Then loaded 1500 troops with no provisions for passengers; soldiers had their c-rations and Lister bags  Took them Tacloban, Leyte; saw some of the biggest poker games with that bunch Took on some saltwater-ballast, then headed to San Francisco (00:36:30)  Tied up to the pier for 5 days, stayed on the ship Took the ship out to Anchorage, Sheridan wound up being the helmsmen on that voyage because the crew were on leave �Went home on 30-day leave  Had a good time, spent time with friends and family; very relaxed Discharged (00:38:15) Reported to Detroit then to a train in Chicago, then the Civilian Pullman Deluxe Train back to Seattle Bremerton Naval Operations in Puget Sound There for two a three weeks, put on the MA Force (police force in the Navy) Many men assigned to a Battleship Maryland, which was being mothballed (00:38:50)  Rated people usually don‟t do the work, but there were so many of them that they had to  There for a couple of months March (‟46), sent to Great Lakes to be discharged Civilian Life (00:39:40) Went to work for a cousin who was a plastering contractor after being discharged (‟46) Bought a ‟26 Model-T Sedan Saw a friend from the Navy (met in Honolulu), went to a high school baseball game Met his wife at that game, been married to her for 61 year Worked as a laborer in a Reynolds‟s Metals Company, Aluminum Extrusion Plant Crane-follower for a while, then Crane Operator Then went to another company in Coopersville (Air Control) after a strike in the previous closed it down Worked maintenance labor for the summer, then back to Coopersville Korean War broke out and Reynolds‟s reopened, worked as a Crane operator, 15 years Worked his way up to Production Scheduling, then Accounting 1963, offered to go to White Bear Lake, Minnesota as Management Opened the first production company for aluminum beverage cans �There for a year, then decided to go back home Big Dutchman, Purchasing Department Involved in the local schools; schools were trying to bring together a high school district Eventually it was passed, got bonds to build a school; Sheridan was put on the board Third year on the board, no administrative staff, asked Sheridan to come in for ½ days Began full days and became Business Manager and Treasurer for 20 years (public schools) Retired in 1991 Afterthoughts (00:46:15) Service made him more worldly and aware; at ease with people, broad education No individual incidents that stand out in his mind; very peaceful in the Pacific Saw many interesting things (Suez Canal, etc.); poverty in Middle East was more prominent � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SheridanD Title A name given to the resource Sheridan, Donald (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheridan, Donald Description An account of the resource Don Sheridan enlisted into the Navy in 1943 after graduating from Coopersville High School. He eventually trained in becoming a signalman and served as part of the Naval Guard on a Merchant Marine cargo ship. His first voyage went to the Persian Gulf via the Mediterranean and the Suez Canal. His ship then went to the Pacific, taking a load of lumber to the Philippines and bringing soldiers home at the end of the war. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-07 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b59841c393dd98a0a35e08e469aa3cab.mp4 61418d345db0934577e957136e821571 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a10c748c7a458eaf1d5e819e1d1eeb79.pdf 0832626436167eeabb3fef08615941a0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Rachel Shilakes Total Time (01:05:55) Introduction (00:00:09)  Rachel was born on November 14th, 1983 in Rochester, Michigan and grew up in Romeo, Michigan (00:00:26)  Her immediate family included Rebecca, her mother, father and brother (00:00:36) ◦ She had always been intending to go into the military and in 2005 she finally joined; her brother, father, uncles, and grandfathers all went into the military- she joined the Army (00:02:14) ◦ She went directly into the National Guard; it allowed her to follow on with her civilian career as well as provide service (00:02:57) ▪ She worked with recruiters six months prior to starting basic training; there was a lot of useful learning she gained from this experience (00:04:26) ▪ She went through basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri in January of 2006- her Advanced Individual Training was done at Ft. Sam Houston, Texas (00:04:46)  At basic training the physical training was intensive but they started relatively slow and worked their way up (00:06:04)  She was in a unit that had both men and women and ended up working out very well (00:06:30) ◦ A third of her training regiment was female (00:07:02) ◦ Basic training lasted around eight weeks plus a week of ceremonies and such (00:09:02) ▪ Triage was one of the biggest focuses in Rachel's AIT at Ft. Sam Houston; it included how to deal with the severity of injuries (00:11:28) ▪ Rachel was assigned to the 1171st Area Support Medical Company out of Ypsilanti, Michigan (00:14:12)  Rachel and her unit provide vaccinations, health assessments for all soldiers, and soldier readiness; in addition, they are required to be prepared to be deployed and operate a field medical hospital (00:14:38)  She did that for about six months and was tasked out to a regional training institute in Battle Creek, Michigan (00:16:55) ◦ Rachel worked as the medical Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) in charge (00:17:09) ◦ She put herself on the National Deployment List in hopes of being deployed (00:17:44) ◦ In November 2007 she received notice to be deployed; she would be assigned to the 1463rd Transportation Company out of Wyoming, Michigan (00:18:01) ◦ Rachel did some refresher medical training for a little over a month before her and the unit flew out to Kuwait and then to Iraq (00:20:51) Iraq (00:20:51)  Rachel and her unit flew into Camp Bucca [?] in Iraq near the Kuwait border near the Persian � Gulf (00:21:46) The first two months their Rachel worked in a medical clinic for roughly 200 detainees by providing medical care, evaluations, medications for about ten hours a day (00:23:11) ◦ She had a pretty good relationship with her detainees as far as how they treated her went (00:24:09) ◦ Her living situation wasn't too bad she lived in 15x20 steel constructed pods with four to five other people (00:26:28) ▪ The local population understood the United States wasn't going to be there forever and the situation stayed the same for Rachel (00:29:09) ▪ Rachel spent about two months working with detainees then spent the rest of her time working for the Air Force on area security (00:29:35)  The hostile activity started to ramp up as Rachel was leaving but overall there wasn't much (00:32:33)  As a medic Rachel carried a M4 Rifle and a M9 Pistol (00:33:26) ◦ The local population was mixed on the United States being there as it wasn't uncommon for bricks or rotten food to be thrown (00:34:28) ▪ Rachel mentions that sometimes the local population although very poor were very hospitable and would offer whatever they had (00:36:36) ▪ Overall the morale of the American forces declined over time- she mentions the Air Force would come in very motivated and positive but the environment they were in wore off on a lot of people (00:37:34) ▪ Rachel had plenty of opportunities to speak with family and friends due to the availability of internet access (00:38:48)  To reflect on the decreased deployment numbers in Iraq, non essential personal were sent to Kuwait (00:41:23) Back to the United States (00:41:49)  Rachel went through out-processing in New Jersey for about two weeks; she had to go through extensive briefings, out-processing for medical and then she was sent home (00:42:17) ◦ After she went home, Rachel enrolled at Macomb Community College to get back into her civilian career (00:42:35) ▪ Rachel heard from a friend that the 507th Engineer Battalion needed medics for their deployment and was given the go ahead to go around early 2011 (00:43:32) ▪ They shipped out in late Spring of 2012 for Afghanistan (00:44:17)  The operation her unit was going on was to look for IED's and supporting the engineer companies (00:44:54) Afghanistan (00:47:07)  She and her unit flew out to Manas AFB in Kyrgyzstan and then to Camp Leatherneck in Afghanistan (00:47:34) ◦ Within her battalion, the injuries were relatively low but their sister company did have a fatality and sent a couple out via medevac for blast injuries (00:49:54) ◦ The medics rotated on missions; on one of her last operations Rachel's vehicle rolled over a pressure plate IED and she was injured (00:51:17) ▪ All of the injuries sustained in that instance was from blast pressure and not from any foreign shrapnel or anything like that (00:53:33) ▪ Rachel was flown out from Kandahar AFB and eventually to Ft. Belvoir in Virginia for �surgery (00:55:08) Back to the United States (00:55:08)  Rachel was at Ft. Belvoir til June of 2013; she underwent therapy and a surgery while being in a wheel chair for two months (00:56:17)  Although she wanted to rotate back to her unit, the process is quite costly and the National Guard did not want her to (00:57:56)  Currently Rachel serves with the 1171st as a medic- she still goes to school and keeps in contact with the 507th (00:58:22) ◦ She comments that her life really started when she came into the military- the lifestyle and deployment changes people; she didn't come home as the same person and she'll never be the same person she was (01:00:45) ◦ Rachel comments that a lot of the flak the Veterans Affairs receives is quite justified and provides an example of that happening to her friend (01:03:08) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShilakesR1575V Title A name given to the resource Shilakes, Rachel (Interview outline and video), 2014 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilakes, Rachel Description An account of the resource Rachel Shilakes was born in 1983 in Rochester, Michigan. In 2005, Rachel joined the Army and went directly into the National Guard as it allowed her to follow on with her civilian career. She did her basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood in Missouri in January of 2006 as her Advanced Individual Training was done at Ft. Sam Houston in Texas. Rachel was assigned to the 1171st as a medic for the Area Support Medical Company out of Ypsilanti, Michigan. She learned in November of 2007 that she would be deployed to Iraq with the 1563rd Transportation Company out of Wyoming, Michigan. They went to Iraq and were based out of Camp Bucca near the Persian Gulf and Kuwait border. After her deployment she returned home and enrolled at Macomb Community College. She joined the 507th Engineer Battalion and shipped out to Afghanistan in Spring of 2012. Her deployment was cut short as her vehicle hit an IED. She went through multiple surgeries to her feet and head. She rehabbed for about eight months at Ft. Belvoir in Virginia. She currently serves the 1171st as a medic. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. National Guard Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-03-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ce0168d961bc0bb41880d703e207897.pdf 01c87c76c276c326585a696beb82ded9 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Helen Shiller Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/10/2012 Biography and Description Helen Shiller, a Jewish American born in 1947 in Long Island, New York. Her father had immigrated to the United States from Latvia and her mother from Belarus. She moved to Chicago’s Uptown neighborhood in 1972, living on N. Malden Street. Initially she drove a cab and worked as a waitress. At an early age, she became active in the anti-Vietnam War movement while attending college at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. In Chicago, she helped to organize the Intercommunal Survival Committee with Rev. Walter “Slim” Coleman. The organization functioned as a sort of white support arm of the Black Panther Party and later evolved into the Heart of Uptown Coalition, a group dedicated to providing essential services to the poor. She also edited Keep Strong magazine.In 1978 Ms. Shiller ran for Alderman of Chicago’s 46th ward, building on the organizing work done by the Jiménez for Aldermanic Campaign 1973-1975, and making fair housing and stopping the displacement of Latinos and the poor a centerpiece of her campaign. She was defeated, largely as a result of welldocumented corruption and unfair campaign practices by the opposition. In 1979, she ran again. This time she won the primary but did not have the mandatory 51% minimum of the vote. In a run-off election, she lost by a mere 200 votes to the regular machine candidate. �Again, intimidation, racist threats, and a major fire in her campaign headquarters just three weeks before the election made her campaign especially difficult. Ms. Shiller also worked on the Harold Washington Campaign for mayor of Chicago, operating the print shop, Justice Graphics, and publishing a bilingual newspaper, the All-Chicago City News with Mr. Coleman. In 1987, she again ran for Alderman of the 46th ward. This time she won and served six terms, holding the office until 2011 when she retired. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. HELEN SHILLER: Okay. JJ: Just, if you want to (inaudible), or if you want to give me your name and your date of birth and where you were born. HS: Okay. So, my name is Hellen Shiller. I was born on November 24, 1947, and I was born in Brooklyn, New York. JJ: Oh, you’re from Brooklyn, New York? HS: Yeah. Came to Chicago in June of 1972. I was living in Racine and came here a couple of times before then, once the winter before, the Christmas of 1971, I think. It was either ’70, ’71 or ’71, ’72. I actually can’t remember. It would have had to have been ’70, ’71. I couldn’t have come here that next year. JJ: How did you get to Racine? [00:01:00] HS: I went there from Madison, Wisconsin where I went to college. JJ: So, you grew up -- HS: I grew up in -- JJ: What part of the Brooklyn? HS: I was born in Brooklyn. We lived in Queens. Then we lived in Long Island. When I was 14, there were some family issues. My parents decided the best way to deal with that was to get me away from them. They didn’t tell me that. (Laughs) So, they sent me away thinking -- me thinking, “Oh, okay. I really screwed up somewhere here.” But they sent me away to school to Vermont. 1 �JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: So, they sent me away to school, and I was there for three years. And I graduated. It was a very small school, a hundred students, in Vermont. And I wanted to go to a college that was as far away as I could get, at least far enough away that to visit you had to take a plane from the East Coast -- it was harder to travel in those days -- with enough [00:02:00] people that I could get lost and where I could study history and with a very short application. Those were my four requirements. So, the counselor gave me two schools to apply to. I applied to some smaller schools. Didn’t like it. But then, gave me two schools to apply to. One was Madison, and the other was University of Michigan Ann Arbor. And I got the response from Madison first, so I went there. JJ: Okay, so, you mentioned history there. So, what was the --first of all, are there any other brothers and sisters? Are there siblings -- HS: I’ve got -- I grew up with -- JJ: -- and what are their names? HS: I grew up with three brothers. But I have several others running around, brothers and sisters. But I grew up with three brothers. JJ: What are their names? What are some of their names? HS: Bob, Ed, and Larry. They’re five and six years older than me and six years younger than me. So, I was like right in the middle. [00:03:00] JJ: And what do they do now and where (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: The oldest is no longer with us. The other one has been -- was a journalist for years, and then, he did public relations. He lives in Canada and still does that. 2 �And the youngest one is a math whiz who does something with computers that I don’t quite understand. (Laughter) He’s a consultant apparently. JJ: And no sisters at all? HS: I have two sisters that are Brandon’s age, my son, who is now 41 actually. One of them -- JJ: He’s 41 now? HS: Yeah. So, I had two sisters. I was the only one in the family who actually literally, in either family, other than their parents who knew that they were our siblings until the youngest one was about 17 or 18. [00:04:00] And she figured it out and asked me, and I said yeah. We look pretty much alike. And she, the youngest one, died in childbirth, died a few -- she died a few years ago. The doctor -- she was nine months pregnant. And she lived in rural Pennsylvania. They were a half hour away from the hospital. And the doctor put her on bed rest to do a cesarian because he didn’t want to do it sooner. He gave her a week. The night before she was supposed to -- because she had some issues. The night before she was supposed to go have the cesarean, she stood up and went over to the couch to watch a movie with her husband. And when she stood up, when the movie was over, she had a blood clot. She had an embolism. It went into her lungs and killed her instantly. And by the time they got her to the hospital, the baby couldn’t survive either. So, we lost them both. That was really, really bad. [00:05:00] And then, she had another sister. She was the youngest. Then the next oldest was a girl who -- another sister who just couldn’t deal with the family dynamics. So, I see her very rarely. 3 �JJ: But you didn’t -- so, you didn’t grow up all together? HS: No, I only grew up with -- JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Plus I had another brother and another -- I had an older brother that I never met, but I found out about him even though my mother knew and had told -- my older brother who survived knew. But I never knew that we had any older siblings. But it turns out that we did have an older brother who is 20 years older than me. And his sons, who I guess are my nephews and are just maybe 10 years younger than me, found me a few years back. And that’s how I found out about them. And then, everyone acknowledged it. It’s like weird. I mean, I don’t understand the reason for these family secrets, honestly. So, big deal? (Laughs) I mean, what is the secret that’s someone’s there? So anyway, I discovered all sorts of family members over the years. [00:06:00] And then, I have a younger brother who is California who rides motorcycles. (Laughs) I mean, he does -- he works. He does IT stuff. JJ: He does another job, but (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: That’s his thing. You see him all the time on a motorcycle. He’s about seven years older than -- six or seven years older than Brandon. JJ: So, you grew up with both parents? HS: I grew up with both parents and three brothers. JJ: And what kind of work did they do (inaudible)? HS: My mother was a nurse, and then, she taught health in schools. Actually, her pension was from the state teacher’s pension fund in New York. And my father 4 �was a chemist who made paint [inaudible] and lacquers in the ’40s. He couldn’t - they wouldn’t accept him into the Army because he had lied on his age to come here because he came from Latvia when he was 12 years old alone. He had to pretend he was 16. [00:07:00] And so, he lied about his age. And so, everything had him four years old. JJ: So, he came here in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: So, here’s my dad’s story. This is actually a very cool story, sort of deep story. He was born in 1908. And sometime -- WWI started in Latvia, in Europe around 1914. I don’t know the exact dates. His father was a tailor in a town called Liepāja, which is on the coast of the Baltic Sea. The capital of Latvia is Riga, which is 240 kilometers -- I don’t know how many miles that is -- northwest of Liepāja. So, it’s sort of like that or the other way around if you’re looking from your direction. (Laughs) And Riga is the capital. They’re both port cities. But Riga is the capital. Liepāja is where they lived. And then, father east, obviously, [00:08:00] is the Russia. This is before the Soviet Union. His father used to go to St. Petersburg in Russia every now and then to get textiles for the tailor shop. In around 1914 -- so, my dad would have been around six -- he went there to get -- five or six, actually -- he went there to get his textiles and on the way back got stuck in Riga because Germany had invaded, and they had occupied most of Latvia, everything to the west. But they were stopped right outside Riga by the Latvian Guard. So, his dad was stuck in Riga and he was in Liepāja with his family. So, in order for the family to survive, my dad, who was the oldest of four, would take things from the tailor shop and sell them on the street. So, he -- that’s 5 �how they survived until the war was over. His dad returned. And an uncle -[00:09:00] after his dad returned -- an uncle from the States sent them some money for one person to come to the states. And usually, that was the father, and then, they’d bring everyone else later. But because his father had been gone for four years, they decided -JJ: His father went -- what? HS: Had been gone for four years. Apparently -- we pieced this together, my brother and I. And it turns out I have a cousin who survived the war, which we didn’t think we had. So, we rediscovered our family there. And between my brother and my cousin -- this is what we figured out. That his family thought they were giving him a reward. They were rewarding him for coming. He thought he was being punished, which is why I went to school -- it resonated with me when I heard this story how people think one thing when actually the reason for it is entirely different, the opposite. And so, he came to the U.S. thinking he had been really sort of disowned by his family and at a time when it was very hard to communicate. This was 1920. [00:10:00] So, he came here. He always talked about going to Chicago and then from Chicago coming back to New York. But I’ve checked the manifests, and his cousin -- his family member who vouched for him was from New York. So, I’m not sure about all that. But I know he was in New York, stayed there, was self-educated, came over on the boat knowing five languages. None of them were English. He was very shy, was embarrassed that he didn’t know English. He started studying it, learned that English is a phonetic language, could not figure out how to spell his name, which was Shimyacha, was 6 �really, really embarrassed by it. So, he picked the name Shiller because he knew that was a poet. That meant that must be someone important. He knew he was famous. JJ: So, what was the last name? HS: Shimyacha. And he -- and they don’t know how to spell it either. I have a census from 1940 from Liepāja where it’s spelled twice two different ways. (Laughs) So, he [00:11:00] took the name Shiller, and he intentionally took the “C” out of the name Shiller because he had learned that English was a phonetic language and he was going to be proper about it. He was coming to America. So, that’s how we got the name. And so, I kept it. I gave it to my son. We’ve kept that name. It’s been our thing. So anyway, he came here. He didn’t communicate with anyone in his family. And then, when the war came to Europe, the Second World War, he knew that they were going to have a problem, and he knew that when the news started coming out about Jews being rounded up, et cetera, he just assumed everyone was killed. At the same time, he tried to sign up to fight in the war because he really wanted to fight fascism. Fascism was a thing for him, always. And they wouldn’t let him because he was too old. But he wasn’t, and he couldn’t tell him because he then would have been totally illegal. So, [00:12:00] he ended up starting his own business. (Laughs) It was a long way around. But the only chemical companies at the time were companies that were supporting the Nazis in Germany, Dow Chemical, DuPont. At least, that’s what he thought. I actually don’t have any facts to that, to back that up. And 7 �consequently, he said, “I can’t work for any of them.” So, he started his own business. JJ: So, he came right out and -- you discussed that? I mean, you brought that out or -- HS: Yeah, he talked about this stuff. JJ: “I can’t support (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).” HS: Well, this was -- I wasn’t born yet. But later on, that’s what he told me. He said he couldn’t work for them. Now, I doubt he could have worked for anyone. (Laughter) I think he liked to work for himself. So, he started his own business. And he made paint [inaudible] and lacquers for adhesive -- I mean, for -- I’m sorry -- for textiles, which I think is -- JJ: Was it a big company? Did it (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, it was very small. JJ: Very small? HS: It always was small and made a living. Half the time he was going bankrupt. When they sent me away to school, after I was there for six months, he went bankrupt. [00:13:00] The treasurer was friends with my mom and they gave me a de facto scholarship. They couldn’t pay. The school that I had gone to was -- the high school I went to was -- it was an alternative school sort of, I mean, I guess. The founder was a guy named David Bailey who had married a woman, a white woman from South Africa who was the senior English teacher and the epitome of a witch from my own point of view. (Laughter) But he was very -- by the time I knew him, he was already suffering from cancer. He died about a year after I 8 �graduated, I think a year or two. But he was beloved. He was unique, and he created the school that -- he was like a kid when I knew. [00:14:00] But he created a school that -- I mean, without any accreditation -- that had the ability to get students into virtually any school they wanted to go to, from Harvard on down. It was pretty remarkable. And he had -- it was really the school that, if you were from the East Coast, you were one of the Brahmin class, you know, one of those guys, and your family expectation was that you were going to go to all the best schools and blah, blah, blah, but you’ve been kicked out of every one of the rest of the prep schools that existed, Woodstock was the place you ended up. Or if you were from a progressive family who had been otherwise was blackballed or what have you or had a reputation, you would end up there too. So, when I was at school there, Pete Seeger’s daughter was there, Thorsen Horton -- I mean, Myles Horton’s son Thorsten was there [00:15:00] from Highlander School. Paul Sweezy -- I think it was Sweezy -- who was the editor of Monthly Review -- his son was there. So, there were people that were extremely -- were intellectuals or who were greatly involved in movements of the left at the time that had their children there as well. So, this was this really interesting sort of mix or sort of rebellious -JJ: So, was this the first time that you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, no. My parents were involved in leftwing politics their whole lives. But they weren’t -- they’re different than a lot of the people I know who that was the case with. I mean, they didn’t send their kids to any of those camps or -- you know, there were all these different sort of -- they didn’t necessarily participate in that 9 �social life. Although my mother often in the ’30s and ’40s, [00:16:00] went to -- I know this because I’ve seen the results of it. They used to have coffees, like they used to do for the elections (laughs) but among the left. So, they did it mostly for artists. So, they would do it for artists, and what’s how the artist survive. So, I have that print up there, for instance, from Diego Rivera, that’s signed by him -- it’s a print, but it’s signed by him in pencil -- that she bought from him at one of those coffees when he was in New York in the ’30s just trying to survive. So, he would come to New York, and he did murals and stuff. But he would come to New York with his stuff, and he’d go around to different people, and they’d talk about politics. And then, they’d sell their stuff. We have three -JJ: Did your parents organize it, or did they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, no, no, no. My father rarely went, I think, because he wasn’t much of a sociable guy. JJ: So they’d paint (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- HS: This was my mother, my mother would just -- yeah. She had at one point -- but I don’t know what happened to it -- a 78 from Paul Robeson, which is how I found out about these things. She said, “Oh, he just came to one of those things I was at. We were both at the same place at the same time.” But I thought this was really interesting because it’s really how they survived. [00:17:00] Alice Neel, who was a remarkable artist who died in 1986, I think, did portraits for a living. And she’d get $200 a portrait. They now sell for 10 times that, if not more. And she -- my mother was looking to give my father a birthday present. In 1958, he had a heart attack. She wanted to give him a present or something. Anyway, 10 �someone suggested -- reminded her that they’d met Alice and she threw these same things, same sort of events. And so, my mother had her do a picture of my dad, and they became really close friends. She had her do one of my mom and one of each of -- my three brothers and I together and then one of my younger brother after he was born. But they became really, really close friends. So, it was -- I don’t know how to describe it. [00:18:00] My dad got kicked out of the Communist Party because he argued with everyone all the time. And I -JJ: So, he was actually a member of the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: He was. And I think that I know he was kicked out now in retrospect because he had this conversation with me -- we had a conversation when I was 17 or 18. I think it was 18. We actually had an argument about what I was doing, and I wasn’t doing enough. This might be two conversations, or it was one that had two parts. But he was really upset with me because I wasn’t doing enough with the war in Vietnam. That was part of the conversation. But the other part of the conversation was about what communism was. And his point of view about that was communism doesn’t exist. The notion that anyone is living in communism is crazy. These people are out of their minds. Communism will only exist because communism is the pure notion that people actually have what they need and can enjoy the life and don’t have to worry about whether they have their needs met. [00:19:00] Then they can realize their full potential. So, you can’t do that unless everyone is practicing socialism. So, it’s about socialism. It’s not about communism. (Laughs) But his point was even then, unless you’re really doing it in a manner that allows for people to be able to have what they need in order to 11 �be able to realize their fullest potential and have that kind of energy and excitement in the world everywhere, everywhere, then you could never reach any ideal of that anywhere. And so, that was very impactful to me. That had a huge impact on just -- on everything because it was contradictory to the way everyone always talked about stuff on the left and all the intellectuals to make everything difficult. And it was something that I really -- that I actually could relate to. JJ: And you were about how old in this conversation? HS: I was 17 or 18. JJ: About 17 or 18. So, you were still in that school or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, no, no. It was definitely after. It was definitely [00:20:00] when I was already in college. I went to college when I was 17. But I think it was probably the summer that I was 18. But I’m not really 100 percent sure. JJ: But in the alternative school, you were not exposed to other (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: At Woodstock? Well, yeah, totally Woodstock. I mean, it was a common thing for -- JJ: It was Woodstock? HS: Woodstock Country School in South Woodstock, Vermont. It started out as a cow barn. It’s now a horse barn. It’s all gone. What was I going to tell you? You asked me about -- oh, okay. So, Myles Horton ran the Highlander School, and it was pretty traditional, for at least some of us, every summer, some students every summer, to go for a month, either August or July. And I decided in ’68 that 12 �I was going to go by hook or by crook in August, and I started working on my parents. That’s just what it’s like. [00:21:00] They were very protective of me, (laughter) even though they kept sending me away. They thought they were protecting me. But in -- I think it was -- before the summer even began, the school was burned down by the Klan. So, I never got there. But that whole series of things was very impactful on me. So, I was -- that would have meant that that was -- I’m trying to think if it was before or after Kennedy was killed. I was there when Kennedy was killed. I was there -- my first year there -- I went there for three years -- was during the missile crisis because I remember that. I remember being -- I remember I was up there. I was with students, not with my parents. It was in October, I think, the Cuban Missile Crisis. And so, we -- that ended up being our conversations. And there were [00:22:00] -- I mean, they were extraordinary teachers. They were people that just really believed in education and giving you the -- they believed we (break in audio) so we had these conversations that were pretty remarkable and we were encouraged to have them between ourselves. And the school had a hundred students, but it also had -- well, when I was there, I think there were five of us that were either Jewish or African American. But I think by the time -- when I got there. By the time I left there were five -- I think there were five African American students and five Jewish students. But I can’t actually identify them anymore. So, maybe it was still five and five. But they always -- so, for that time -- this was the ’60s; I graduated in ’65 -- that was pretty extraordinary. And so, it was part of the conversation. I mean, I don’t know what to do. But [00:23:00] there was like any 13 �other high school teenagers -- I mean, they made cruel jokes (laughter) about me because I had this really thick Long Island accent, which I worked really hard to get rid over time because I was so embarrassed by their constant taunts against me. I mean, it was a really elite -- the people who were there came from an elitist environment. And it was -- some of the people there came from an elitist environment, and other people there -JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) HS: Well, they were from the eastern, north eastern elite, really. They had money. They expected to succeed. At least this was my impression. Although as I think of individuals that I knew, I don’t know that that’s so true. I mean, I had one friend who grew up with the Rockefellers. But he wasn’t a Rockefeller, (laughs) on the other hand. So, I’m not really sure. [00:24:00] And maybe my impression of that and therefore my characterization over the years hasn’t been entirely accurate. But there were people that knew that they had a future across the board. I don’t mean this -- so, forget all of my assumptions or even sort of negative connotations. And these were just kids. But as I’m thinking, I always assumed that their parents were either very progressive or very reactionary, and somehow we all ended up there. But I’m not so sure now because I have no idea. But a couple of my friends, who I was really close to, surprised me when I left. And one of them was the person who grew up with the Rockefellers. The other one was someone from Woodstock, New York, whose parents just turned out to be -- or who himself turned out to be not very progressive. But I don’t 14 �understand -- I don’t actually -- I never actually knew the parents. So, I just made assumptions. JJ: So, they surprised you because you thought they were progressive? HS: No, I’m just thinking now. It’s surprising me now because I’m not [00:25:00] really -- yeah, the two? Well, when I was 17 or 18 or 19 or even 20 and knew all these -- I mean, when you’re in high school -- when I was in high school, my friends were -- there were only a hundred of us. You had your friends. Everyone was an acquaintance. But if you had a friend, that was a real friend, you’d expect that they stick you with you forever and ever. And so, three, four, five years later, as we grew and led our lives and became whoever we began the journey of becoming whoever we were going to become and we’d talk to each other, I never in my wildest imaginations had ever thought that if you disagreed with what someone was doing, you’d never talk to them again. But two of them disowned me when I decided to go to Cuba. It’s like, “Oh, you’re kidding, right?” (Laughter) And especially because the reason I went, I thought, was really appropriate. There had been -- I’m jumping ahead a minute. But there had been [00:26:00] a trip to Cuba in 1968, early ’68, that five members of the Black Panther Party had taken. And two of them had come from one coast and three of them had come from the other. I don’t know which. And they had gone through Mexico. But when they go to Mexico City, they were kidnapped by some American intelligence agency and sent back to the opposite coast from which they came. So, SDS decided they were going to challenge that, and they decided that they were going to have a trip of 30 students, which ended up being 29 white students 15 �and one Puerto Rican, college students. So, we -- people applied, blah, blah, blah. JJ: What college was this? HS: Pardon? JJ: What college? HS: It was from all over the country. So, everyone from all over the country applied. [00:27:00] JJ: And you were a member of SDS? HS: Actually, no, at that point, in Madison, SDS and -- JJ: You were in Madison. HS: I was in Madison, and we had created -- friends of mine actually had formed the Draft Resistance Union. And there was tension between SDS and the Draft Resistance Union. But SDS -- we built the -- I mean, I came back and spoke for SDS when I ended up on the trip. But I didn’t -- so, it was a fraternal relationship though with the Draft Resistance Union. So, it was friends of mine who recommended that they send me. At that point, I wasn’t really -- I was never one for being that -- I wasn’t into organizational structures. I wasn’t into doing organizational work. I was into being there. So, when we had the first civil disobedience in Madison, I was there. I was one of the people that voted to do it, to sit down as opposed to picket. When the Black students went on strike, I was one of the students who went in teams into classrooms to explain the strike [00:28:00] to other students. But I didn’t sit back and organize stuff. I just did 16 �stuff. Do you know what I mean? I mean, sometimes I did because you had to. But what wasn’t my thing. JJ: But tell me about the trip, and I’ll come back to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: So, we -- the trip to Cuba? JJ: Yeah. HS: So, they ended up picking 30 students from around the country. There’s a lot of back stories, but I’m not going to go into them. I mean, I could, but this is going - this is not going to be an hour conversation. (Laughter) We’re nowhere near Chicago. So, we can have those -- you can go back if you want. But anyway, we ended up being in Cuba for about eight or nine weeks. It was quite remarkable. It was August of 1968. JJ: What did you do there? HS: We did everything there, I mean, literally. We went all over the country. We talked to people everywhere. We had our tourism. [00:29:00] We went through factories, and they showed us all the development stuff they were doing in every field, I mean, from art to construction. We saw the movies that were being made. We went to different theaters. We literally probably -- we went all over the whole island. I mean, it’s not that big an island, and we were literally there for eight weeks, I think, at least eight weeks because we didn’t come back until October, and we went in the beginning of August. So, it was -- and we did go to (laughs) -we did go to one speech in Havana in the big square, which is either called Revolution Square or Independence Square -- I can’t remember. And Fidel spoke, and he spoke, and he spoke, and he spoke, and he spoke. (Laughter) 17 �Fortunately -- my Spanish isn’t great. But Yvette, who was the only nonwhite [00:30:00] student on the tour, and I became really good friends. And I picked up immediately that her problem was that everybody expected her to translate for them. So, I never asked her to translate for me. So, I had to figure out what people were saying. So, occasionally, she would tell me of her own volition. But it was the only time I get even close to being fluent in Spanish, which of course I thereby immediately lost by not using it when I came back. So, I did understand about 50 percent of what he was saying. JJ: But what was the atmosphere? HS: It was unbelievable. I mean, it was extraordinary. The whole place was full. It was the first time I saw -- I mean, people were engaged back and forth. It was the first time -- I mean, we saw more of that later on during Harold’s election. We saw a little of that -- it was reflective of some -- I mean, I saw it on TV; I wasn’t there -- at the March on Washington, the civil rights march a few years earlier. That was, I guess, four years earlier. [00:31:00] But it was -- yeah, it was very dynamic to me at that point. I don’t know before or after or whatever. This was pre Venceremos Brigade. The Venceremos Brigade came out of that visit. So, anyway -- JJ: And the Venceremos Brigade was -- HS: The Venceremos Brigade was organized the following year. And it was students going to apply to go and work for a month or so in the cane fields in Cuba because cane was their primary economic engine. 18 �JJ: Okay. So now, you came back. You’re in Madison. And now you’re working with the draft resistors (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: The draft resistors were actually my friends. It was formed in ’67. And they were doing their thing. And then, SDS -- I came back -- I was a senior -- I came back and I did some speeches and [00:32:00] stuff for SDS. It was that same year was the year the Black student strike. But the prior year, the summer that I went to Cuba, there were a group of students from -- this was the Draft Resistance Union that organized this. And they organized teams to go to different communities all over Wisconsin. And then, during the -- maybe they started that in ’67. But they were definitely doing it by ’68 over the summer. And then, sometime during that year or at the end of that summer, there were people who -it must have been after that because Dan Sweeney was one of them, and he was there in ’68 -- decided that they were going to go to -- by mid ’69, these communities existed. They decided they were going to go to three different communities and start doing organizing work. So, one was Milwaukee. One was Waukegan, Illinois. And the other was Racine, Wisconsin. So, there were [00:33:00] two people in Racine, and then [Mark Zukin?] joined them. And then, he recruited me later at the end of the year to go there after I recruited him to run around and take people to hospital during miscellaneous activities. JJ: So, you recruited each other? HS: Yeah, he did more recruiting than I did. (Laughter) And that’s what he was very good at. And so, there were people in Racine, and there were people in 19 �Milwaukee, and there were people -- by ’69, when I left Madison, there were people in Racine, Waukegan or north Chicago, and Milwaukee. JJ: You never went back to New York (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, no. My plan was actually to go to Sweden and weave. (Laughs) JJ: And weave? HS: Weave. I was a weaver. I use to weave literally. I had a loom. I had a huge loom. I had to get an apartment as a student off campus to house my loom. (Laughs) [00:34:00] This is true. I used to weave things. Susan Rosenbloom still has something I wove. JJ: Has a what? HS: She’s the only person. Susan Rosenbloom still has something I wove. JJ: Oh, really? HS: Yeah. It’s the only thing I wove that still exists. Anyway, I went -- no, so, I ended up -- I chose instead -- then I thought for a minute maybe I should go to Mexico and do weaving. And then, I said, “Oh, come on, this is a joke.” I went to Racine. (Laughs) So, we went to Racine. Mark recruited me, and Steve Gold, who also was at Madison, graduating when I did. JJ: Steve Cole? HS: Gold, not Cole. Steve Gold. Steve Cole went to Milwaukee. JJ: So, you knew him then? HS: Yes. And we recruited him from Milwaukee to come -- JJ: You say “we,” it’s still the draft -- HS: Well, okay -- so, no, no, no, no, no. They’re -- I’m not -- 20 �JJ: Okay, you move on. HS: When I saw “we” at this point, it’s the three of us. It’s me and Steve Gold and Mark -- go to Racine. [00:35:00] And we -- I’m actually not sure when Steve went. He might have come at the end of the summer. I don’t remember him at the beginning of the summer. But we went there and the idea was (inaudible) take these guys (inaudible) [have to work or nothing?] because it was really influenced by Dan Sweeney who still -- the means of production. Now, he’s created a whole school actually today in Chicago that deals with making sure that people are educated to be able to continue to work in manufacturing by having a proper education deal with new technologies. But anyway, this was back then. So, the idea was everybody was supposed to get a factory job. So, we go get factory jobs which lasts maybe three months before we’re all blacklisted. But while it lasted, Mark and I had two different -- we were on two opposite shifts, so we never saw each other. But [00:36:00] I discovered that the way he got through his shifts was literally drinking a pint of gin every day. So, by the end of the summer, I started kind of worrying about him because clearly it was having an impact on his health. And in retrospect, what I learned -- what I know now or I knew several -- 10, 15 years later, which we didn’t know then was that he was working in a foundry where the temperatures were 100, 150 degrees, lifting 100 pound pieces of car parts, doing piecework with someone else who became good friends of ours, Nate, who was bigger and stronger than Mark (laughs) and sort of carried him along. But I am sure that was the trigger for his MS. JJ: Oh, his MS? 21 �HS: I am sure. Yeah, it’s how he died. He died in ’98, and I’m sure that was the trigger. About a year after that, he had -- the first time he collapsed -- and [00:37:00] you know, I didn’t -- it didn’t make any sense when you thought about it later because he never had pain. He would just collapse and he could not move. His back would go out. And that happened twice -- once or twice in Racine. One time I remembered -- I’m sure it was twice, but I can only remember one time. But it was horrible. I mean, I had to call a friend of ours, who was big, to come pick him up because he collapsed on our porch stairs midway outside. So, that was a year and a half after that -- or maybe not even that much. Anyway, the point is we were in the factories at the end of the summer. And we’re like, “This is crazy. You’re drinking every day. We never see each other. We’re not doing any work. I mean, we’re working. We don’t have time to even think of doing any organizing. And this is what we really want to do. And shouldn’t we really be finding the young people?” So, we decided that we wanted to talk to young people [00:38:00] and start working in the high schools. And two people that we were there with, Suzie and Jodie, said, “Oh, no.” Whatever, whatever. So, they decided to move to Detroit and work with workers, and we stayed there. And I think that’s when Steve came, Gold, not Cole. So, we’re doing our thing. We go in -- we do stuff that I think today we’d be arrested for -- but which was -- we would -- I mean, I don’t think you could do it today. We took a group -- we started hanging around the high schools and talking to students and talking about who knows what. And I actually have some -- I do have some of our old -- I think I have some of our literature from Racine. 22 �JJ: (inaudible) HS: So, we took a car full of students who walked out of school, got in our car, and drove with us to Chicago to hear Fred Hampton speak outside the Chicago 7 Trial in September, [00:39:00] that one that we -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) HS: Yeah. I’m sure I saw you there, just didn’t know it. So, we did that a few times without anyone’s permission or anything, which is why I think it was probably -whatever. But we were organizing among students. We had a little student newspaper. JJ: These are students from (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: High school, public school in Racine. JJ: In Racine? HS: It was mostly, I think, probably about the war and about -- and we were selling Black Panther papers too. JJ: Because we were organizing with the Panther people here to come -- HS: Here, yeah. JJ: -- to the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Yeah, I’m sure we did. (Laughs) So, we sold Black Panther papers. So, Mark and I sort of gravitated towards doing more of that stuff and less of being in the factories. JJ: Now, is this part of the survival committee? Was it all -- HS: Not yet, not yet. So, the summer [00:40:00] that I moved to Racine, the Black Panther Party had in California, National Conference to Combat Fascism, the 23 �first one. The ISCs came out of that. And that was in July, I think. And Mark and I had had a huge fight, and some of my best friends from college were living in San Francisco, my roommates. And I said, “Well, screw all of you guys. I’m going to California for a couple weeks.” (Laughs) So -- no, this wasn’t ’68. This was -- I’m sorry (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I was actually wrong. No, it wasn’t. JJ: It was before then? HS: Oh, wait a minute. Now I’m confusing two different events. But I know I went out there when I was pregnant. JJ: Well, it could have been ’68 (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: There was something in ’68, and I went out there. But then, I went -- JJ: And we went (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Yeah. But when I went out there, it was ’70. The second time I went out there, it was ’70. So, I went there again in ’70. But ’68 was the first one. And I remember -- and we had had an argument or something. [00:41:00] And I said, “I’m just -- I’ve got to get away, and I want to go to this conference. So, I’m going to California.” But the second time was -- I know I was just a few months pregnant with Brandon. Maybe it wasn’t the summer. It might have been the fall. But I went out there again. I know there was stuff that I did both times. But in -this was ’68. And then, when we came back, we hooked up with -- there was a chapter of the Black Panther Party in Rockford when I -- because I went alone. When I came back, there was a chapter of the Black Panther Party in Rockford, and there was a something -- branch -- they didn’t call it chapters; t wasn’t quite a 24 �chapter -- let’s for the sake of the conversation call them branches, but I think they had another name -- in Milwaukee. Loretta X was in Milwaukee and Harold Bell and Ray Lewis were in Rockford. And we hooked up with the folks at Milwaukee first because it felt -- they actually -- I’m not sure if they were closer or not, but it felt closer since they were in the same state. I think they might have been closer actually. And we used to go back and forth. [00:42:00] We did -- we just did literature. I don’t know why it sort of came to us, both Mark and I, naturally. And him, the writing, me the laying out. And so, we would do stuff with them, and then, we would do our own stuff and bring it up there and print or something. I think they had the equipment to print and we were able to do layout. And so, we went back and forth. They had a mimeograph. But we were back and forth to Milwaukee all the time and we’d get our papers from them. So, we went up there once a week. And then -JJ: And you weren’t working with SDS. You were working more with the Panthers? HS: In ’68, when I left -- ’69 -- it was ’69 that I went out there because ’69 was when I graduated. In ’69 when I left -- so, ’69 when the National Congress to Combat Fascism was. And then, the next -- yeah, so, I went up ’69 and ’70. In ’69, then I [00:43:00] left -- when I’d first come to Racine -- when I’d graduated and first come to Racine, there was a big SDS conference in Chicago. And that was when there was the split between the Weathermen and the Revolutionary Youth Movement. And I remember that because the folks -- I told Mark, “I feel like we’re just going from one bar mitzvah to another.” Especially -- we went to Lincoln Avenue to the old -- oh, what was that film place called? No, Newsweb -- 25 �no, it wasn’t Newsweb. Anyway, we went place on the second floor on Lincoln Avenue. And there was a -JJ: [Newsroom?]? HS: Yes. And we were invited to some party they were having. And it turned out it was a Weathermen Party. And [Mark Rudd?] was there from Columbia. And he was greeting everybody like just what you do at bar mitzvah. I literally -- when I left I said, “I just feel like I just left a bar mitzvah. So, between him and Travis -what was his name -- and a number of other people, we were really being courted, individually [00:44:00] and collectively. And meanwhile, there was [SLM?] and then on the other side who were sort of talking about the stuff -- JJ: [Walter Collin?]? HS: Yes, Walter Collin -- who were talking about the things that we really -- talking about survival programs and other stuff. So, we were organizing (break in audio). So, we ended up hooking up with the Revolutionary Youth Movement folks, RYM II, as I recall it was called. So, we had -- we did -- JJ: So, the Weathermen Underground was RYM I? HS: No. I don’t know what the -- no, I don’t know what RYM I was. I just remember (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) this was called RYM II. And I can’t remember why. I think it was sort of a second generation. It wasn’t in conflict with RYM I. I think the Revolutionary Youth Movement was something everybody talked about. And then, there was the split. Not really sure. I have some of the stuff. I mean, I could probably figure it out if I went back and read some of the stuff I have. I do have some of these old things. [00:45:00] 26 �JJ: You were RYM II (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: But we were Racine, and we did -- I know we did different things at different times. But basically what we were doing there was -- Mark was organizing the lawyers to do a legal clinic. There were -- the lawyers were all either Jewish -- for the most part, at least the ones we knew were either Jewish or Italian. And we got along just fine with (inaudible) them all and got them all to agree to do something pro bono. And I started hanging out with folks doing welfare defense and decided that we should -- and got into it with them and started talking about, “Well, let’s do some advocacy. Let’s do some welfare defense. Let’s look at it as a defense, not just as advocacy. Let’s look at it as a way to help people understand their rights so they can get what they need.” So, we started doing that more. Because -- and the hardcore folks were really just doing agitation, [00:46:00] which was very helpful. But then, let’s get something for it. So, we were doing that. And later on, when we came to Chicago, it became really models for other stuff we did here. But that’s pretty much what we were doing there except things would come up. So, for instance, I discovered that the way they were dealing with the outbreak of rubella among pregnant women was the public -- Department of Public Health in Racine decided, in their wisdom, that the best way to deal with this would be to inoculate -- require that all women who were pregnant get inoculated for German measles. (Laughs) So, let’s give them the measles in order to prevent them from having it. It was insane. And so, we couldn’t -- we told them, “You’re crazy,” and we tried to bring them some medical evidence and they wouldn’t change. So, we picketed for about week downtown 27 �Racine, which I don’t think they’d ever seen before. And after we did that, they actually changed the policy. [00:47:00] They also passed a law that said that more than two people on the street in downtown -- on Main Street in downtown Racine was loitering. And one day -- we had a book store. We started a book store to theoretically survive. It was a joke. But it was a very progressive book store, great books. And it was Steve and Mark and I were the owners of the book store. And we were standing outside the store one day talking because it was really hot. And we got arrested for loitering. And by the time -- I was like, “You’re kidding, right?” But I was really happy because we were really broke, and we hadn’t eaten all day. And we got to have bologna sandwiches, and I got a nap, which I rarely do. And we got out and they had to change the law because they realized they couldn’t prosecute us (laughs) for being in front of our own store. But they passed that law after we did the demonstrations. So, we did stuff like that. And Mark led -- I remember doing one march he organized that was really based on stuff they were doing [00:48:00] here. It was (inaudible) and big and it was -- it expressed his conflicting -JJ: Based on stuff that who was doing? The (inaudible)? HS: People both -- everybody was doing, everyone. Because in the fall, there was -the Days of Rage came out of a demonstration that was organized around the event. I don’t remember if that was what the event was. Do you? JJ: They were (inaudible) the year before the (inaudible) beaten up in the park and they wanted to show that -- the (inaudible) underground. HS: No, but there was something that both the Weather Underground and -- 28 �JJ: Well, we did (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: -- SDS across the -- no, I remember that, and I went on that march. I remember that march. And we went on that. JJ: So, you were with us on (inaudible)? HS: Yes, I remember that. But there was -- or maybe that’s what I’m thinking of. But I think that there was another march that SDS was doing. [00:49:00] It was an SDS march, but the Weathermen went off and broke a bunch of windows and things. And everybody got blamed for it. JJ: I believe that was at that same time. HS: Okay. JJ: Because we went downtown and -- HS: Yeah, yeah. JJ: -- we marched to Humboldt Park. HS: Okay. And I was -- yeah. So, back in Racine, at some point -- I don’t know if it was related to that or not because we were there actually. I don’t know if it was related to that or not. But there was a march that Mark organized, which I always felt was -- expressed his -- he was torn between the two because he had friends in both. He was just torn between the two because he was so frustrated and angry. He wanted to do stuff, and that’s really where a lot of the Weathermen stuff came from that we knew. But it also came from a sense that -- when is the point where you think you can’t have an impact? Because that was it as well. JJ: What do you mean? [00:50:00] HS: Well, I think that if you better -- 29 �JJ: Because that was the discussion at that time. HS: Yeah, that was -- well, I mean, I think the better example of it really is South Africa. But at some point, you take action. You know, there was a whole discussion because there was what was going on in Ireland, what was going on in South Africa, and then people relating it back here. And some people interpreting the fact that there was no legal recourse. And we hadn’t gone as far as they had gone in terms of legal recourse. But sort of jumping from A to Z instead of going through all the steps. And in the process of going through all the steps, I think it became apparent to some -- I mean, some of us felt that going through those steps meant that you weren’t getting -- didn’t jump ahead, that that was really -- that had to be -- circumstances had to be ripe to be able to do stuff that took on a violent aura to it. It really had to be necessary. It really had to be necessary. [00:51:00] It was really a question of necessity. And was it really necessary yet? And that was the debate, I think, that we were all having. And people made different choices. But for students, it was -- I don’t think we had -honestly, I don’t think we had enough life experience. The energy that we had -- I mean, I think about this all the time, and I’ve often thought about it as an alderman, thinking about what other people were doing and saying, in the end, it’s about where is the material impact. I mean, in my eyes for today, in the end, it’s about the material impact. And are the actions you’re taking going to have a better material impact on people’s lives or a worse material impact on people’s lives? What is the best path to actually have the best outcome? Not in the short or long term, but overall, in the real world. I mean, obviously, sometimes in life 30 �and in history, people have had to -- people have been heroes. I mean, the word -- hero is attached -- the notion of a hero is attached to someone who does what has to be done in order for [00:52:00] other people to have things better. So, yeah, that’s right. But you still have to -- you still have to do your best to make sure that it has the best outcome materially. In other words, in terms of people’s lives, in terms of their ability to grow and develop and realize their most potentially -JJ: In terms of people’s lives? HS: I think. So, it’s -- for me, it’s an ongoing conundrum. I think that the energy of youth is irreplaceable and irrepressible in a very good way. On the other hand, I think -- that doesn’t mean that they always know what’s right, that you always know when you’re that young what’s right because you don’t necessarily have the life experiences necessary or the time to have reflected on what that life experience really means. And the whole point is you’re in a process of growth and development and you’re -- being in the middle of the boiling pot is probably great from the long term [00:53:00] perspective because it’s going to give you so much to be able to figure that out and be more impactful later. But in the process, you’re being impactful and hopefully -- and you’re making choices. And so, what does it take for us to give our youth the foundation they need to make the best choices possible and the ones that will lead us in the most humane direction. JJ: So, what made you decide to move to Chicago as a group? Why’d you move? 31 �HS: Well, we were in Racine for three years. I was in Racine for three years. And personally -- and we were doing a lot of stuff. We had a huge clothing program and food giveaway program. We took very seriously building the lifeline for survival. That was really a concept of the Black Panther Party pending revolution. JJ: So, it was connected -- HS: We really did think there was going to be a revolution. JJ: You were connected with the Black Panther Party at the time? HS: All the time we were in Racine, yeah. Okay, wait. I forgot the most important thing. So, we’re in 1969. I’ve left. I’ve gone out to California. I’m back. Mark and I decide we’re going to leave the factory. We start organizing with students. We come to Chicago. We meet Fred Hampton. I mean, I must -- JJ: Where did you meet Fred Hampton? HS: We must have hooked up with [Slim?] at some point because I remember going over to the west side office with him. JJ: Okay. HS: It was me and Mark and I -- and he was -- JJ: And your impression for him? HS: Well, Fred was just -- oh, I also saw him at a speech in Racine -- I mean, in Madison when I was still at school there actually. He came out there to speak. Fred was just incredibly dynamic and very clear. He was well spoken and cursed a lot, but he really made sense. And he had -- I think -- the only thing I can tell you -- it sounds kind of corny, but his humanity just shone through [00:55:00] in a 32 �way that you rarely experience. You knew he was for real. You knew that he was sincere about what he was talking about, and he had a vision. He saw things pretty clearly in a way that was very attractive. That’s what my impression was. JJ: What was attractive? HS: Well, his clarity and his sense of humanity. You actually thought this could be a better world and you could do something about helping being a part of that. That’s how he made you feel. JJ: So, you saw -- you didn’t see it as a Black nationalist type of philosophy? HS: No. JJ: How did you see that? HS: I -- JJ: And I’m putting words (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: No, no, no, I understand. I was -- the first time I saw Fred I was a student. And he spoke at an assembly hall. It was across the street from where we did our first sit in. Shortly after that, maybe a year after that. [00:56:00] And at that point, I had -- there was a lot of -- there was -- it was a campus. So, it was students. They were mostly middle class. So, it’s not comparable to the real world. But in the context of the campus, there was a lot of repression that people who had organized -- a lot of pressure came down on people who had been organizers (inaudible) some of whom were really good friends of mine. And I had seen them really break or were breaking under that. And -- JJ: Pressure from whom? 33 �HS: The administration of the school. And we were struggling. It was obviously. This was -- I think he -- I don’t remember if he spoke the year [00:57:00] of the Black student strikes. But the Black students were organizing most of the time that I was there, at least the last couple years. And their demands were not unreasonable. They were demanding things I wanted to know about. I was a history major. I wanted to know about history. One of the first books that I actually read as a kid, chapter books, as they called -- was Freedom Road by Howard Fast. And it’s about Reconstruction and the carpetbaggers and the whole deconstruction of Reconstruction (laughs) basically in the South. And so, I wanted that history. I thought we should all know that. I thought that the lack of even history that we have, that we don’t learn the same things -- we don’t learn the history of all of us, and we don’t all learn it makes it really hard for people to understand and live together and be able to [00:58:00] respect each other. So, for me, all of that was just part of the real world. I guess the other story that I didn’t tell you is that my dad always talked about fascism. He always talked about how you have to fight it, no matter what. He said, “I don’t care what you do with your life.” Well, he did. But I mean, in the end. He said, “I do care what you do. Just don’t ever get arrested.” But he said, “I don’t care about a lot of things. But I want you to be able to recognize fascism when you see it and do something about it.” That was so important to him. And I just attributed it to his own history. But it was really embedded in everything from the day I was born. I mean, it was just -- it took me a while to understand that fascism is more than Nazism and to begin to see how it related to racism [00:59:00] and other things. But I was very 34 �aware of that by different things that happened, both in terms of things that my parents did that I thought were racist and/or just -- or were objectively expressing the racism of the society, the inequalities between people and the attitudes that people have about each other. So, all of that was part of what I brought -- more with questions and answers, but what I brought to those years of my life. And so, when Fred Hampton was coming, I was really excited. And I took what he said -you know, I never -- I always -- you know, people yell and they argue and they say stuff. But the real issue is what are they saying. And I was prepared to hear what everybody was saying. And so, he was very respectful. He was a respectful person who was also demanding respect, and I appreciated that. I can relate to that. [01:00:00] JJ: And you were also -- I mean, you had a group that was working directly with the Panthers. HS: Later. This was -- JJ: But this was later. HS: The first time I saw him was when I was in college. When I came to -- that was in ’68 I think, around them. It couldn’t have been ’67 because he was -- I think he came -- he started the party in ’68. So, it was ’68 or ’69. It might have been ’69 because the Black student strike was in ’69. It was January ’69, January or February, at least my calendar -- my internal calendar says so. When I came to Chicago, obviously it would have been in ’69 too. I saw him that one time at the rally when we brought the students. I was here and Slim gave us -- with Mark -- 35 �and Slim gave us a tour. We were doing something with him. And he probably started recruiting us in ’69. I’m sure. He was already trying to recruit us. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) come to Chicago or were brought here or -[01:01:00] from different -- HS: Branches of? JJ: I mean, of the (inaudible) coming in? HS: Oh, yeah. Well, in 1972 -- JJ: Oh, it was ’72. HS: In 1972, I moved to Chicago in January. I came here just with Brandon, my son. He was 15 months old. And we stayed with Linda Turner. And I worked on the clothing program. We were doing a clothing program. And then immediately switched over to beginning to work on the rally we were going to have in October, which was a rally to end police brutality and establish community control. And we were doing that at the Aragon in uptown. And we were going to and did serve -give our 3,000 bags of groceries. And Bobby Rush, who was then the minister of defense of the Chicago chapter of the Black Panther Party, was going to speak [01:02:00] and did speak. And we were going door to door. So, starting in maybe August or September -- it must have been August -- we started going door to door in uptown. Well, maybe we did that for the clothing (inaudible) maybe we had already started. I came here -- it was the end of December though. And so, for that event, Slim recruited the rest of -- recruited everyone who was in Racine and everyone who was in St. Louis to come here and to work on that. And of those folks, ultimately everybody ended up coming here. A few people from 36 �Racine didn’t come until January, but they came down to help us -- or some of them came down to help us. But some of them stayed. Some of those folks stayed after October. But by January, everybody was here. That was really the catalyst (inaudible). And then, the next -JJ: By January of ’73 or ’72? HS: Oh, January of ’73, yeah. [01:03:00] October of ’73 was the big event. And then, in ’73, we started working with the Black Panter Party here on the conference at U of I, conference on police brutality and establishing community control. Fannie Lou Hamer came and spoke and a few other people. So, that’s all I did for the next six months (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) yeah. And then, in January of ’74, we started working on their campaign. And the first thing I did was the -- I worked with [Angie Lynn?] on the press stuff and then I did all your literature. JJ: Angie Lynn from the Young Lords? HS: Yes. So, in January -- and I have these original -- as well as -- I have the original -- in some cases, layouts -- but the layouts, I think, are mostly (inaudible). I have the [01:04:00] original press release that we did, which of course was done on a typewriter. Remember there was -- someone was being evicted on Wilton Street and that was the first thing we did. Anyway, I think that’s what it was. But I actually have it in my box over there. It’s one of the things I want to give you. And almost immediately, shortly thereafter, you had the announcement that you were running. And I almost immediately then for the next year spent 22 hours a day doing literature, either following you around to take pictures, calling the press, working (inaudible) on the media, or putting together your literature, which 37 �is how I learned how to do typesetting and everything. I mean, I used to -- it was how I learned to do a print shop, which we later started, because I’d get the copy from Slim or you or through [01:05:00] Slim from you or whatever. I would then copy fit it to figure out -- no, I would then go by -- I’d learn what it was that we were trying to do. Then I’d go to the paper place and see what ends they had and how much paper I could get for the -- based on how many I needed that would be appropriate to fit that. And usually they were odd, shaped things that they cut oddly. So, I’d get these weird, shaped pieces of paper that would be appropriate for whatever the purpose was. And then, I would copy fit to that size. (Laughs) And then, I would go to the typesetter, who would then type out -- I don’t know how they did it. It was like they typed in one line at a time. But then, you’d get the copy back and you’d have to fit it, and then, you’d have to figure out the mistakes and go back and either fixed or can they give you lines. So, I had to fit everything in. And anyway, this literally took me [01:06:00] -- and then, I would take it to someone else to have a negative shot and then to somebody else to have the plate made and then someone else to have it printed and then someone else to have it cut or bound. And so, in the -- I mean, literally. And most of the time I was asking people to do it for nothing. One of the things that I found here is your campaign disclosure statements that we submitted. And we didn’t spend any money. And that was me. Really didn’t. I got people to do stuff. I mean, in those days you didn’t have to report the stuff you got for nothing, the (break in audio) oh my gosh. I was just like -- everybody was just -- that’s what I did. But the side effect of that was I learned every aspect of doing printing, which is how 38 �we ended up starting a printing company. And that led us to be able to do fliers later. JJ: You said you did some work with Angie Lynn? HS: Yeah, we did the media stuff. JJ: A lot of work or -- HS: Media stuff, yeah. JJ: So, what do you -- HS: We spent a lot of time that year -- JJ: -- remember about Angie? HS: Oh, Angie was great. Well, she was just very smart. She got along -- she was really good with people. And she [01:07:00] could get the media folks to do almost anything. She got them out there. And we -- it was pretty remarkable actually what we did that year, what you did that year, because -- the whole campaign, because you had a significant showing. And I think -- I looked at the figures -- we spent under 10 grand. I mean, that’s just ridiculous. I don’t even think you spent that much. We just did -- it was just a lot of people just working their butts off and really talking to people. It was pretty remarkable actually, the whole thing.= JJ: And during this time, you were still working with the Panthers (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: Well, this was the -- we were the intercommunal survival committee, which we’ve sort of jumped ahead to -- JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 39 �HS: -- the ’70 -- okay. So, when I came to Chicago -- JJ: Just trying to (inaudible) connection. Just trying to -- HS: I know. JJ: -- show that there was a connection. HS: When I came to Chicago in ’72, I came to work with what had been -- [01:08:00] people who had that people’s -- what was that? I just lost the name. Information center -- it was the People’s Information Center. And that was Slim and Kathy, Roy O’Dell. We then -- JJ: Because that started in Lincoln Park. HS: Yes. JJ: The People’s Information Center. HS: That’s right. And during the course of time, short time or even maybe at that time, it became (inaudible) they established a relationship with the Black Panther Party to become an Intercommunal Survival Committee, otherwise known as ISC. And that’s pretty much what we were until -- pretty much what we were for a long time. We started to create community institutions in the ’70s. So, there was the People’s Community Service Center and the [01:09:00] Uptown People’s Community Learning Center and the Uptown People’s Law Center and the Chicago Area Black Lung Association and then ultimately the Heart of Uptown Coalition which was a really huge mass organization. But these were all organizations that did very specific concrete things, that dealt with people’s survival every day. But the people who put the time into doing it were people who were members of the Intercommunal Survival Committee. That’s sort of the 40 �tie for all this. And we had a relationship with the Black Panther Party, which -we sold their papers. But we also did things. Our goal was always to create an intercommunal society, to create the opportunity for this to be really basically a place where everybody could realize their fullest potential. And to do that, we had to deal with these issues that we have in our real world. JJ: So, an intercommunal survival society said [01:10:00] everybody was able to meet their potential? HS: In my view. (Laughs) JJ: But I mean, this is what -- this was the goal. HS: Well, yeah. The template for the Black Panther Party, I think, laid it all out pretty well and I think, from my perspective, reflected for us as well the -- what was true there would be true for everyone. JJ: Now, who would you be working with? Because at that time there was no Panther folks after Fred Hampton. HS: No, there was. JJ: There was? HS: Bobby Rush became the chairman of the Black Panther Party in Illinois. JJ: After Fred? HS: Yeah, yeah. And was until -- I mean, the party had a life on and off. Bobby got into politics in ’73, I think, or so. But he was in and out. I know he ran for -- JJ: So, he ran for office in -- HS: -- something in ’73. JJ: -- what? In ’73? 41 �HS: The first time he ran for state rep he didn’t win. [01:11:00] JJ: Oh, so, when I was -- HS: It was ’73. JJ: -- running he was also running? HS: Well, that was ’75. So, by then, he -- I mean, I remember we had -- he was still in the party. I remember -- JJ: So, he was running before that. HS: I remember Tom Lindsay who used to do a lot of layout with me, did a mock front page of one of the major city papers, I think one that doesn’t exist anymore, maybe Sun-Times -- I don’t know -- of headlines of Bobby Rush winning for mayor in 1975. So, this was in ’72 or ’73. We were just playing around one day. It was interesting. Something historic, actually when you think about it. I might not have been Bobby. But we never expected a Black man in those days though, right? So, the party really pretty much existed in Chicago, although not in any way, shape, or form in the same level because the health center. I don’t know when the health center closed. [01:12:00] When -- I never finished telling you the most important thing. So, we’re back to ’69. So, it’s Thanksgiving of 1969, and Mark and I are going east to visit our families, his father in New Jersey and my parents in Long Island. And I remember he had a huge fight (laughs) so we ended up disappearing and going our own ways and then coming back on the -came back on the same plane. We were flying back to Milwaukee because everybody was reevaluating -- no, actually, this is what happened. Everybody came to Milwaukee in October for -- I mean, in November -- sometime in 42 �November, for a conference. We were -- the people that were doing this external work who had left Madison and were in one of these three communities and trying to figure out what to do or wanted to go to one of them. So, we had a meeting. And [01:13:00] it was a conference. And it was -- we just -- it was obnoxious. So, we said, “We’re leaving, and we’re going home for Thanksgiving. We’ll be back.” (Laughs) We get back on the evening of December 3rd. And we’ve had this huge blow out. We’re not talking to each other. We go to sleep. We're woken up a six o’clock in the morning. Someone tells us Fred Hampton’s been killed. So, Steve is there, Steve Gold. I think that’s when Steve came. Steve wasn’t in Racine until then. He was there as part of the people that come to the conference. So, Mark and I look at each other and we say, “Well, we have to go back.” Suzie and Jody have already said they’re not going to return. And we said, “Now, we have to work together. We don’t care. We’re not going to live together. We don’t like each other. We don’t care. We’re going to go back. And who wants to come with us?” And Steve said he didn’t. And we’re going to go. We’re going to work under Black leadership. And we’re going to be serious about what we do [01:14:00] because we can’t just walk away from this. And so, we went back to Racine. We were like (inaudible) we hook up with this guy who turns out to be an FBI provocateur, which we don’t find out for six months, which is why then our relationship directly -- because we were going to do that on our own. After that, we hook up more directly with people in Milwaukee and people in Rockford. But that’s how we made those connections because we realize we’d really blown it. And we went to -- we knew the people in Milwaukee. But 43 �we went to Slim and asked him -- when we figured out what was going on, which was at least five or six months later. And he put us in touch with the Rockford folks. So, that’s how he hooked up with them, with all those people. JJ: With the Rockford Panthers? HS: And with Milwaukee. Oh, Milwaukee, we did on our own because we met them during that time. We went to whatever memorials and met people there. JJ: So, that was in ’69 you were with the Rockford Panthers? HS: Yeah, yeah. And then, we went to -- well, after Fred was killed. JJ: And Rockford was a branch of Chicago (inaudible)? HS: Rockford was a branch [01:15:00] of -- JJ: Of (inaudible). HS: Yeah, yeah. And Harold Bell, who was the head of the Rockford chapter, was in the -- and Mark Clock was from the Rockford chapter. JJ: (inaudible) HS: And he and Harold Bell were in the apartment when Fred was killed as was Doc Satchel. And Doc Satchel was -- Ron “Doc” Satchel. Ron was his name. Who was the member of the -- very young member of the Black Panther Party who had ran the free clinic that they had on the west side. And it was a pretty extraordinary place. And they recruited all these doctors and were doing great work. And Doc was his nickname, obviously. Doc was also in that apartment and was one of the people that received quite -- he was shot up pretty badly, never -- I don’t think -- [01:16:00] completely healed. I mean, he was really messed up physically, and obviously that affects your life. I remember -- I got 44 �there because I was trying to remember when the clinic shut down after Fred was killed. And I think it survived for a while. So, he was killed, but the programs continued on some level over a period of time. JJ: Okay, so, now you’re -- we have the (inaudible) campaign (inaudible). HS: Before we get -- maybe it was afterwards. I’m sorry. That was later. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: So, we did the (inaudible) campaign, your campaign. The next year I actually spent -- ’75 -- what did we do in ’75? We stayed in uptown. I’m trying to think of what -- I don’t know. So, the ’70s are [01:17:00] -- there’s the ’70s -- JJ: I went to jail during that time. HS: What’s going on in the ’70s? JJ: There was some negative thing where -- that was going on during that time. So, how did you respond to that? How did the group respond to that? You had done all this work. And all of the sudden -- HS: You mean how did we respond to -- explain to other people or among ourselves? JJ: Among yourselves and then other people. But among yourselves. HS: Well, it is what it is. (Laughter) You know. We are who we are. Shit happens. And it doesn’t change the overall dynamic, which is what everything was about. So, there’s pressures on people that cause different reactions. It’s just part of life. But it’s not about any one of us individually. It’s about what [01:18:00] needs to be done. So, the issue was what needed to be done. And that didn’t change. I mean, when you ran for alderman Lake View -- no, when I first came here which was two years before you ran for alderman, Lake View was 75 percent Puerto 45 �Rican. By the time I ran and won in 1987, Lake View was maybe 15 percent Puerto Rican, maybe. That is a difference of 14 years, 15 -- what, ’73 to ’87, 14 years. That’s huge. And going back to Lincoln Park for a minute, similarly Lincoln Park changed similarly as dramatically, even more so over a longer period of time, a little longer period of time. The interesting thing [01:19:00] and I think what always struck me about Lincoln Park was that even in the ’80s -- and Lincoln Park stuff happened really late ’60s, early ’70s -- in the ’80s, there were people still hanging out there. So, just because people had moved out doesn’t mean they move on. And that’s what I learned from Lincoln Park, and it was repeated in Lake View. And it’s always -- and to a certain extent, repeated in uptown. The difference is that there’s -- because of AIDS and because of the imprisonments -- I mean, the change in drug laws and because of (inaudible) there’s fewer people to hang around. But it hasn’t changed the fact that there’s people hanging around. It’s just not the same people. So, the dynamic is -- and it’s interesting because I think it leads to some of the -- this is actually really interesting. I think -- [01:20:00] and this is anecdotal obviously. But I remember going back and seeing people in Lincoln Park that I knew from Lincoln Park. I remember going back to Lake View and seeing people that I knew from Lake View. Here, people say, “Oh, there are all these people hanging around,” that they don’t like, and they blame me for it because I found them places to stay or whatever. And they say that’s because -- but they’re not necessarily from here. The people who hang around here, the people who come -- and they weren’t necessarily doing anything. They might have been doing some drugs and stuff, 46 �but I don’t think so necessarily. That might have been a side thing, but that wasn’t the main reason they were there. Today what you find people hanging out on the corners is because they’re here to do business and they’ve come from other communities to do the business. So, it’s a totally different dynamic that creates a much higher level of violence. It’s interesting. Now, they connect and know people here and meet them, so it’s not altogether quite as simple as I said. But it’s sort of interesting. It’s a whole other area of study people could do about gentrification. (Laughs) But [01:21:00] the real point is that when you do gentrification, the thing that you go at the heart of -- and this has been true any -it’s even true when they built Robert Taylor and tore down a neighborhood. What was the -- they built something new. What was the neighborhood they tore down? It was a stable Black working class community of people who owned their homes. And they created a future that everybody thought was going to be this great future, new housing. And it was built so poorly and it was organized and designed so poorly and then managed so poorly that it was made -- it became an impossible place for people to live. That was going in one direction. But it’s always -- if you want to do what you want to do with land, it’s always about destabilizing the people who are there. And that’s an acceptable -- sometimes it’s almost Machiavellian. I think it was more Machiavellian when Robert Taylor -because it sounds to me like it was intentional or more intentional or so clearly [01:22:00] out of a total blind spot of racism. The rest of the gentrification comes out of more greed where it’s acceptable that you can profit from the bad acts of someone else that does act to undermine and destroy people’s lives and maybe 47 �equally as Machiavellian but from a greed point of view as opposed from a racially motivated point of view. But it ends up always taking advantage of race because that takes advantage of people who are a disadvantage. And whether you’re poor white or you’re Black or you’re Latino, you’re still reeling from the dynamic of race. JJ: Now you mentioned poor white, poor Black, poor Latino. So, we’re looking at these campaigns during that time and the type of people that were involved in the campaigns. I know there were students and that. [01:23:00] But I mean, the -for example, the Young Lords and -- how did you see the type of people? Were they students? How did you see them? HS: I’m not -- JJ: In other words, what type of -- how did you see the activism? How was -- you’re coming from -- HS: You know, I have to say that we were so focused on what we were doing. We were intentional about not getting engaged in the politics of the organizations, of anyone. And we stayed away from the left too. People sort of thought we were standoffish. But we worked throughout the ’70s and really up until the time -- the early ’80s. Our focus was really just doing the work. It was quantitative change leads to qualitative change. Every day you talk to people. [01:24:00] Every day you educate people. Every day you provide services. Every day you learn what is that is needed, the people need, societally speaking, that people really need. What needs are in their lives? Do they have enough food? Do they have enough clothing? Do they have the medical treatment that they need in order to 48 �be able to grow? Are they receiving a proper education? Do they have access to education? Do they have jobs and access to them? Are they being prepared to be able to actually be full human beings? We realize who they can be. And every day we were doing something that related to that or that we interpreted to do that. And we all did different things. And sometimes someone else told us what to do and sometimes we told someone else what to do. And sometimes we collectively figured -- always we had some sort of a collective discussion about where we were going or what we needed to do. And almost every day, at least for me, had to remind myself [01:25:00] what the context was, what the reason was. So, it was a constant reevaluation of what we were doing and why we were doing it. But we worked so hard. I don’t think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: The Young Lords -- because you had an -- HS: Well, I’m talking -- JJ: -- independent (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Well, what I just said related really to the ISC but also pretty much to anyone that I knew in the Young Lords at the time, pretty much anyone I knew in the Black Panther Party at that time. I mean, where people were committed, that’s what they did. And so, that was always gravitated to. If you were serious, then I would sit and do stuff with you I would do it for -- and this is true to this day, I suppose. But if you’re serious -- if you’ve got a problem that you’re trying to solve and you’re serious about it and it’s something that’s really going to be a positive, not a negative, in terms of humanity or humankind, whatever, then I’m there. If I can 49 �help, I’m there. [01:26:00] You got me. You got me until I can’t help you anymore. JJ: And that was going on with all the groups (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: I think that’s -- I mean, that was my perspective. JJ: That was year. That was year. HS: If George was sitting here, George Atkins, he would say, “Yeah, right, Helen,” (laughter) or, “Maybe you or not all of us or sometimes,” and put a grain of reality to it. But that was always my -- I’m sort of crazy and passionate and don’t know when to stop. (Laughs) JJ: And so, now, we go -- the campaign is over. We did very well. We got about 38 percent, 39 percent of the vote. And now, what’s the plan? But we lost. I mean, we lost -- HS: The election. JJ: -- the election, but not the -- HS: Yes, so, we launched the Heart of Uptown Coalition. We start doing country music Sundays and we’re full-fledged in uptown now. We start doing country music Sundays at the Hull-House. JJ: Because there’s no Latino (inaudible). HS: They still are there, but people are moving. Some people coming uptown. [01:27:00] This is process, so it doesn’t happen overnight. And we’re in uptown and we realize and we’re very clear that in uptown at that point, there are the largest concentration of Native Americans outside of a reservation, an Indian reservation in the U.S., in the country, largest concentration of poor white people 50 �in the country, the only census track in the city where you can actually live and be an integrated couple, some of which you can live more easily than others, one of the few integrated census tracks in the city, the place where [01:28:00] a significant number of Japanese families came to after their internment from the camps in California during the war. And now, they were all the aging population. They were all seniors. But they had some real institutions and cultures here. And we learned that just by canvassing. It was like everybody lived together. But clearly, uptown had been a port of entry. And because there had been some -- the location where they had built during the ’60s -- so, it was still relatively new -- late ’60s and early ’70s -- the -- some of the (break in audio) HUD buildings, which were buildings that were built with low interest rates. That was -- during that period of time, the interest rates were double digit. And so, these were very - two and three percent, I think. And so, they were building -- [01:29:00] they built 10,000 of them in the city. And almost a third of those were built in uptown in Lake View. So, we had -- and who lived in them were people -- they each had their own character. But the ones in Lake View had -- but they were really -- I mean, one building had a lot of people who worked for the state of Illinois and were young professionals, largely African American, but not entirely. There was a building that had a lot of -- there were buildings that had Africans and Asians and Latin Americans. Everybody lived in these buildings. Some of them had more Section 8, some had less. Some had 100 percent, some had 20 percent. Some had in between. All of them had below market rents which meant that they could -- it was the only rent control that existed in the city. They couldn’t raise the rents 51 �without approval of the federal government because in return, they’d given the developers very low interest rates. A few of the developers ended up -- turned out to have been decent managers. Most of them were terrible. [01:30:00] And ultimately, fast forward 20 years later, nationally a significant number of those units that were built with these fines -- this program, actually ended up going back into the -- were foreclosed on by HUD and ended up back into their inventory. But in uptown, in Lake View, it was 50/50 in terms of good and bad management. But there was a huge diversity of people that lived in these buildings as well, which added to the diverse nature of the community. But we started to -- but there were real struggles. The tenants wanted to have a say, and they had a legal right to have a say. So, there were issues everywhere. We were having, in uptown, during that time -- there was -JJ: So, you were looking at neighborhood diversity as a good thing? HS: Yeah, yeah, it was an objective reality too. So, this is ’75, and we have [01:31:00] -- so, that’s sort of a description, a little bit, of the community. Now, there was -- there had been prior -- six years or seven years prior to that, the city had decided to build a college in uptown, which was taken as a very cynical gesture by many people because they initially said where they wanted to put the college would have displaced about 5,000 people. So, it was like, “Okay, so, you want to build a college for people who live in the community. But to build the college, you want to move all the people out of the community. How does that add up?” (Laughter) So, there was a huge deal about that. This was before I came to Chicago. But there were people -- I think the Young Lords might have 52 �been involved a little bit. But that was when the Young Patriots were up here and [01:32:00] the original Rainbow Coalition. At any rate, there was a compromise, which -JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) HS: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And so, there was a compromise that wasn’t a very good one. JJ: But Patriots were (inaudible). HS: That’s right. And the compromise was sort of the liberals negotiated a compromise. The reason I said it wasn’t very good was because they didn’t displace 5,000 but they did ultimately displace about 3,600. But the compromise was to build one building initially, to initially build one building and displace 1,200 people. The problem is that the college clearly had an intention of continuing to take land and to build more and more. And so, while they broke ground in ’74 or ’75 on the college, they were still moving on the rest of the housing [01:33:00] and had already destabilized -- you saw it. I mean, I saw all this happening. When I got here, where the main building of the college was completely vacant. But across the street was not on other side. So, there was Sunnyside and there was Racine. And there were people living and flourishing everywhere. And every day there was a fire or somebody no longer had their heat because all of the pipes had been taken out of the building or whatever or there was a new contract buyer in the building or whatever. But one of those things was happening to everyone in the buildings almost every day. And until we got to the point where they had -- people started to have to find ways to resist. And 53 �ultimately, because of the resistance that people had to the college expanding, they had to -- they did get a few of the buildings on Sunnyside, but they stopped. We really finally stopped them when they got to [01:34:00] like one layer of buildings in. And so, if you look at a map today versus a map 30 years ago, what you see is that Sunnyside jogs a little bit because we stopped them. And so, Sunnyside just was remade a little bit farther south. But they did take the other side of Racine. JJ: How were you able to stop them? HS: Well, it was lots of demonstrations. We went down to the college board all the time. In fact, I think that the first speech I ever gave when I was -- I was really shy. I can’t even believe you remember anything from those days. I mean, I was terrified to speak or say anything to anybody except if I was on a mission and I could do it and if it was one on one. But the first time I had to speak in public was at one of their meetings. The city college board was meeting at Truman College. And oh my gosh. Somebody -- I think it was Slim. And somebody stood behind me and literally pushed me to the podium because I was like in shock. [01:35:00] Anyway, stage fright. But we did all of that. But that was later. Continued to always -- then we wanted -- when they finally built it, we wanted them to actually educate somebody. JJ: Because there were several -- HS: But there were a number of public projects that were designed to be built where people lived allegedly for them. So, we had built in uptown, and the same thing happened where building by building by building was speculated on by people 54 �who made money off of the market in different ways, either by doing contract buys over and over and over again -- definitely milking the building. JJ: It was (inaudible). HS: You buy -- you sell your building to somebody else on a contract. You let them collect the -- you still have the insurance on it. You let them collect -- they collect the rents, and they have to pay you your money every month. So, you’re getting money every month. They get whatever they get -- what’s different from that. It’s probably not very much. And that goes on. But that’s how you make sure you get your money. [01:36:00] But it’s not legally your responsibility anymore. But then, when the building finally burns, which it inevitably does, either at your hand or someone else’s, you get the insurance money. And it was a scam that went on until the late ’70s, early ’80s when we -- JJ: What was the scam? I mean -- HS: Oh, there was a ton of people involved in it. And we tried to get 20/20 involved a few times. They finally did get involved. They just blew it. I mean -- what’s his name? Geraldo Rivera. JJ: He did that arson (inaudible). HS: Yeah, but we originally tried to get him out of here a year earlier. He would have saved some lives. And we set him up in an apartment and everything and said, “This is what’s going on. We know. We canvas every single day. We’ve been putting (inaudible) patrols. We know what’s going on. We know they’re going to hit this building. And we’re going to try and stop it. But we’re out there. We don’t think we can stop it. But we can protect people. But we’re there. But you need 55 �to tell the story so we don’t have to keep doing it.” [01:37:00] He said, “Well, I have to tell the bomb and arson squad.” I said, “Well then,” we said, “If you tell the bomb” -- Mark said, “If you tell the bomb and arson squad, then they’re going to be told. They’re clearly in collusion.” They said, “No, no, we have to do it, blah, blah, blah.” So, they did. So, of course, it didn’t happen. JJ: So, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) collusion with the city (inaudible)? HS: Well, this was -- well, somebody in -- I mean, I wouldn’t say the city. I would say city policy was to encourage building -- city policy created the conditions for opportunists to successfully operate. That’s what I think. JJ: But it was individuals that were doing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Took advantage of it. Individual opportunists. But because of the city’s policy. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. But if you’re really looking at solving the problem, from my point of view later on as an alderman, that’s exactly right. And it was really an interesting conversation. [01:38:00] Then you’ve got to look at it from the point of view of the material impact. If you’re looking at it saying, “This stuff is crazy. This is impossible. We’ve got to shake it up.” You’re going to polarize and do whatever you have to do that. For me, the line comes when you do that from the perspective of having a real -- making a policy change that impacts people’s lives for real versus when you do that for egotistical reasons. And as the alderman, it was so clear to me when people were doing one versus the other. And that’s what drove me nuts. And then, when people were doing -- honest people were doing their organizing -- we had the situation in my last term that really -- 56 �JJ: How many terms did you have? HS: Six. JJ: Six terms (inaudible)? HS: Yes. In my last term, there was an organizing effort to [01:39:00] -- around housing, which was a great organizing effort. And the stated goal was to create - this was not the stated goal. In my view, any goal that had to do with housing would create additional resources for affordable housings. That had to be -- that was the reason you do anything. So, the coalition of folks dealing with this came in and said, “We are going to demand that there be a requirement in the city that the city must spend 20 percent of all its resources it gets from TIF funds on affordable housing.” On the face of that, that sounds great, except that’s not how TIF works. And it was impossible, and they could never meet it because most of the TIFs -- not most, but a significant number of the TIFs don’t even have housing included in their purpose. So, you can’t spend money on housing in those TIFs. [01:40:00] And so, you have to create a way -- JJ: But they play it in the media is -- HS: Yes. JJ: -- that it’s geared towards (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Oh, no one understands it. It’s like so -- and this is in the context of people attacking -- like up here it was in the same time I was doing [Wilson Yard?]. And the folks up here that were opposed to TIFs were opposed to TIFs because they didn’t want it to include affordable housing. So, you have this bizarre dynamic. And they wanted it to be taken down state and have them change the law, not 57 �the way the advocates wanted, but the opposite. But everybody, I thought -- it seemed to me anyway -- was misreading everyone else. So, I said, “Look, let me” -- first of all, they did a study on the TIFs. So, I said, “Let me look at your TIF stuff.” I mean, I have some credibility here because this has been my thing. So, I looked at it, and I got about half way through. And I’m telling Cha-cha, the stuff that I looked at, everybody had access to. It was online. I did it all online. But you had to know how to have access to it. So, I said, “Look.” But it was on the city’s website. [01:41:00] So, I said, “Anyone can do this, and I’ve done half of for you.” I spent 12 hours straight just doing this. I dropped everything else because I want -- but I ran out of time. We had a schedule plan for a meeting. I said, “We’re halfway done. This is what I’ve come up with. If you guys give me some help or do it, we can get the rest of it done. I just can’t do the rest of it because I have a few other things I have to do.” I mean, I was the alderman, right? And they said, “No, we’ve already done our study. We don’t want to redo it. We don’t care. The horse is already out of the barn, and we’re having a rally next week. So, we’re not going to change anything.” And I’m like, “But what you’re talking about doesn’t fit with reality. At least let’s get something that we can really negotiate around material impact with them.” We had a disconnect there somewhere along the decided that everything I was saying I was doing to protect the administration because I had made a deal to get Wilson Yard done. And it was not true. JJ: This is what they were saying? 58 �HS: Yeah. Now, I understand where they felt that way. And it was true that [01:42:00] I was definitely working with the administration to get Wilson Yard done. I think that we influenced each other. And you could argue who had more influence over the other, but I know I had huge influence on this city and on the past administration on affordable housing. But what I really felt was critical of this moment of time was that there were policies that the city had about how you could use TIF money where it could be spent on affordable housing that needed to be changed. And by changing that, you could actually do a lot more with it, because we were limiting what we were allowing people to do with that money, one, and two, there were various areas outside of the TIFs that required change in city policy that would also create a lot more resources for affordable housing. And I was trying to get them on that page to do it. And because of my relationship with the administration, I was able to get everybody in the same room. And we got to an -- [01:43:00] this was over three years -- got to an agreement that had a real material impact, back to the material impact notion. But there were people in the room that had gotten so far out on what this 20 percent requirement that they felt -- I think they felt like it was their personal credibility that was at stake. And my point was that is never going to be agreed to because you’re basically asking them to set the city up -- the city to set itself up to be sued and then we’re going to send money to defend the suit that we should be spending on affordable housing. So, why is that even in your interest to do that? We shouldn’t even be going there. That’s the give because the take is so much bigger. And here's the take. And I listed about 10 things that really 59 �would have materially increased the resources we had for affordable housing. And they wouldn’t go for it. So, six months [01:44:00] later, after the election, the primary election and everyone is shocked at Rahm Emanuel won outright, then they take the original deal, which didn’t include any of improvements and I no longer get them to do it because they laughed at me and said, “Why do we have to do it? We don’t need to do it anymore.” And they voted for something that was a compromise that these guys agreed to. They got nothing and they declared it a victory. And it’s like okay, that’s not good organizing. You did this extraordinary -- I mean, that’s great. You did an incredible job of organizing. You brought all these people together. You brought the city to the table. And instead of taking something that had a material impact on a symbolic thing, you gave it up and you came away with no power. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: It’s a coalition of people all over the city. And they were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) well, the coalition of groups. It was a coalition of organizations. JJ: Are they still doing that? [01:45:00] HS: Well, the core group is still doing what it does every day because it is sincere on what it does every day, I think, and it deals with people who are homeless. But it does a lot of stuff that does have a material impact incrementally with people’s lives. But ultimately, you’ve got to really create the bricks and mortar. And if you don’t create the bricks and mortar, we’re not going to have the choices. If you don’t have the housing, you’re not going to be able to put people into the housing. 60 �JJ: And your way of -- and you see the (inaudible) what way? I mean, how do you see that? HS: Well, what I’m saying is that they had this extraordinary campaign. They gave us an opportunity -- organizing campaign (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) they gave us the opportunity to actually create the issue that forced some creative thinking and some give and some change in the way stuff was being done that would have created more dollars for bricks and mortar and at a moment in time that it would have been really important because it would have been before a change of administration that would have [01:46:00] meant that the new administration came in looking at the status quo, which would have been a different status quo and moving from that so that you would have only had to have talked to them about maintaining that status quo or improving it. But instead, you’re back here. You’ve gone two steps back instead of two steps forward. Am I clear? No. (Laughter) Okay, so look -- JJ: So, do you think they were going back because they already had a position of strength (inaudible)? HS: Well, no. I think they had a position of strength that could have been used to have a material impact on the issue that they were raising. And instead, they shot for the -- they went for the symbolism instead of the material impact. JJ: Okay. That’s (inaudible). And you were trying to get some kind of -- HS: Yeah, and ironically in this instance -- JJ: -- victory. You were trying to get a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 61 �HS: Yeah. And in this instance, the symbolism ended up being interpreted by the mass media as just being anti-TIF. Now, we could argue with TIFs until we’re blue in the face. But the objective reality is that for the last [01:47:00] 15 years at least -- well, last 24 years, since Harold Washington was first elected -- since Reagan was elected actually -- federal dollars in housing, in HUD, have been diminishing either for community development (inaudible) grant funds or for housing. They’ve been diminishing. Direct funds for that have been diminishing over that period of time incrementally. Andin the last 15 years the primary area of growth for resources in the city that’s been available for any kind of affordable housing on any level, from 80 percent of median income all the way down to zero percent of median income, has been through TIF dollars. Fact. And so, to attack TIF dollars without figuring out how to make that continue to be the case or how to improve that is [01:48:00] cutting off your nose to spite your face, I think. JJ: But you were saying though that the TIF dollars -- they were saying one thing, but they really were not -- it wasn’t providing affordable housing. HS: No. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) what I’m saying. HS: Well -- JJ: So, when -- HS: No, no, no. What I’m saying is that TIF was -- JJ: I mean, I don’t want to attack any money (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: No, no, no. Here’s what I’m trying to say though. TIF became the primary tool that the Daley administration had for economic development. And that economic 62 �development subject includes among that affordable housing. The city has some other resources and gifts for affordable housing, primarily access to tax credits, which don’t actually come through HUD, I don’t think. Anyway, tax credits come through the state and the city gets some and the state gets some. And they allow a developer to sell [01:49:00] -- to syndicate the tax credits they have to people who are willing to pay for them up front so they can get their taxes off the IRS later. And so, that money can be used for development. And there are still some -- what they call home dollars, which comes from HUD, which is free cash, which can be used for things under construction of low income housing, and vouchers now -- not Section 8, but not really -- they’re not on -- those really are what CHA has. And although there are some available through CHA for the general market -- but nothing like in the ’70s or ’80s. And there’s still some CDBG, community development, block grant funds, much less than there used to be. And only a small amount of that gets spent on housing. So, we’re much more restricted. There are some loan programs and other things. But it’s much more restricted than it used to be. [01:50:00] So, if there is a funding mechanism that the city has created that is under attack but which also is a funding mechanism that your area of interested, i.e. in this case housing, has been able to benefit from, then I think that you should be careful about how you polarize the situation. And we’ve experienced in the last -- well, we always have experienced a backlash to people -- there’s always been the “not in my backyard” dynamic in Chicago. It's why when Dorothy Gautreaux filed her lawsuit and there was a consent decree in 1968 that said the city could not build a single unit of a public 63 �housing without building a scattered site unit of public housing, that all public housing (break in audio) because nobody would let them build a scattered site housing in their [01:51:00] community. And the scattered site housing couldn’t be built in the Black community, it had to be built into integrated census tracks, of which there are very in the city, or non-Black -- mostly Black, I guess Latinos in there too but it’s -- I don’t know. That got litigated separately. But you couldn’t have more than -- the minority, I think, was both Black and Latino -- more than 40 percent of living in a census track be in that minority -- be a minority. So, that was a response was not in your backyard. So, everything stopped. So, you have dynamic that’s ongoing of not in your backyard. A lot of the people that -when the newspapers or whoever did an expose on the TIFs and said, “Look at all this money that’s sitting there. No one’s using it. It should go back to taxpayers.” The teachers, who had a legitimate issue, [01:52:00] and the housing advocates who had a legitimate issues, i.e., we want education, we want money on housing, said, “Oh, then let’s take all of that and give it to us, and then we can do it.” Only the money -- it was more complicated than that. A, most of the money that the newspapers said was there wasn’t really there because it was committed or hadn’t been collected yet. B, the money that was there was there and each was in an individual district. And you can only spend TIF money in the district or in an adjacent one by the district. C, a lot of that money was already committed to education and the board of ed because they were building new schools. So, it’s a more complicated conversation. The only reason -- the only people that benefit from making it all seem like one thing are people who just 64 �want to get rid of all the stuff that it does. And everybody can jump on a bandwagon and say, “We don’t like this, that, or the other.” But sometimes when you do that, you’re actually benefiting someone who doesn’t like what you like. They might be in that same coalition. [01:53:00] You just don’t know each other. Everybody’s just out there. It’s, I think, part of the dynamic of our day where there’s so much information. It’s too much to get through. You don’t really get it. And it’s part of what’s happening all over the world. And then, things get sorted out. JJ: I see what you’re saying. I see your point of it. What would you -- looking at it -trying to look at your side, which I -- I’m in that kind of a situation too because -you have Latinos that were displaced, for example, and not only Latinos, but poor whites and African Americans from the lakefront and the downtown area. How do we correct it? There’s clear discrimination there. How does that -- but you can’t pinpoint it because of the various TIF and all these other programs that the city council has come up with. So, I mean, how can [01:54:00] we correct that there’s clear discrimination but legal discrimination. What would be your -- since you -- because I know that you’ve been able to do that in uptown. You’ve been able to help poor people stay in uptown. HS: It’s not a simple question. And the core -- JJ: And this is off the top (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: No, I understand. JJ: I’m just trying to get your expertise in that. 65 �HS: I’ve had this conversation a lot with different people, especially in reviewing what we’ve done, the whole story in uptown. And I have to tell you -- this has come up. No one would -- there isn’t an alderman who would ever want -- they might say they’d like to be like me. I’ve heard people say that. There’s no one who ever wants to do what I did. I worked too hard. I didn’t even want to do what I did. [01:55:00] I couldn’t do it anymore. I mean, I couldn’t do it anymore because conditions changed also. But I’ve been going back and looking at the stuff and all the things that we did, especially in my first three or four terms and -I mean, then my next -- last two terms were really different because they were about making sure that stuff actually happened, (laughs) that the results of things happened. And you only have so much control over the world around you. But I had a core commitment when I became alderman. And I think I stuck to that. That core commitment was that at least -- I was going to do the best that I could do to ensure that resources that were available in the city and in the ward for people as a result of there being people with fewer resources were going to spent to the benefit of [01:56:00] people with fewer resources so that if you had money that was coming into a community for a college, you would make sure that the people who needed to go to that college when the money came in were still going to be there when the college was built or for a health center or for a school, all of which were our story up here. And my first year as alderman, I went to -- I started going to the U.S. League of Cities conferences. That is an organization of municipalities all over the country. They are mostly small, but there are also some larger ones. And we all go to it. So, I would go to those. 66 �And they had these workshops for days. So, I’d always go to the development workshops, and I’d always ask the same question because there would always be presenters who would tell you their success stories. So, I was always asking, “Okay, so you did that. Were the same people there [01:57:00] at the end of the development who were there at the beginning of the development? Did they get a chance to benefit from it?” And usually the answer was complete and total silence. You could hear a pin drop in the room. I suppose I asked the question too directly and they knew the answer -- but really, I never got an answer other than no -- sometimes people were honest -- or really mostly it was silence. And I realized that I was probably going to -- that this was like a -- raising the question was -- there were two things I could do that had value. One was raising the question, and the other was doing my best to protect in uptown and my ward, whatever the boundaries were -- mostly uptown, the existing affordable housing and grabbing every possible opportunity that I had to create additional housing. So, the next thing was [01:58:00] -- okay, so how do I make sure I’m able to do that and stay honest? So, I then -- it was my practice to be dealing with survival issues. So, people said always they look at their alderman for services. So, my next thing was -- and I started this actually when Harold was mayor. I’d been doing it since ’83, these workshops in the community about all the different city departments. So, I knew a lot about sewers, and I knew the condition of our sewers. They were in really bad shape. I got into sewers because I figured let’s go where no one else is looking. So, I went underground. So, I got really detailed. We built -- when Harold was here, I was able to take advantage of him, 67 �and I figured sewers are a big deal. I had him set up for me to meet with the city’s chief engineer. I had her teach me about sewers. And then, I proceeded to go about the business of finding out [01:59:00] what was the status of everything that we had and then getting that rebuilt. We had, when I got elected, two collapsed sewers. So, it wasn’t -- I mean, I had an opportunity -- I had to fix them, and they were big, so that was huge. So, I was sort of a step ahead of everybody. But then, over the course of the next three years after Harold died, I had to deal with the fact that I was in the minority. And I just did my work, and I never dealt with the commissioner except at budget time. So, I took the budget, which I considered the most important thing that the city did because -- that the aldermen did because that was the one thing we were elected to actually do, the one legislative responsibility we always had. And it was the one way you would know how the money was spent. And if you wanted to get stuff done, you had to know where the money was. So, I would study the budget every year, and I would study it by asking questions because they don’t really tell you unless you ask. And then, I learned how to ask questions. But I’d get really frustrated and pretty irritated when people didn’t give me answers, and I was still an alderman. So, over the course of time -- [02:00:00] I mean, it took me 20 years to get all my questions answered. But I did get them answered up until the last day I was there. And nobody wanted to not have their questions when I came there. And they also didn’t want to have any outstanding service requests because it became well known -- I mean, I would ask them that in front of everyone else. And there’s ears on the city council during budget. Everybody’s hearing it. And 68 �the one thing that Daley didn’t like was ever any bad stuff in the press. And oh my gosh. Everything I said was going to go to the press if it was negative. And I was not gratuitous with that. You really had to be doing something wrong. I mean, I didn’t just go off. I mean, I think if you do that, then you become a joke and no one pays attention to you. So, I was not -- I didn’t do that. JJ: It just (inaudible) you had to work with him. HS: No, I’m talking about the first 10 years. JJ: And I’m only saying that because we of course opposed the law (inaudible). HS: Yeah. [02:01:00] I’m talking about -- JJ: But symbolic, not (inaudible) personally, but symbolic. HS: Right, right, right. So, I am very critical of the administration, but I need to get stuff done. So, I am studying the budget, and I am asking questions, and I’m developing relationships with all of the secondary level of -- the people who actually do the work in the departments. They don’t make a lot of the policy, but they make enough of the policy that they get the work done. They can decide if they’re going here or going there. They’re the ones that are going to get them done if something doesn’t get done. So, they don’t me complaining about anything. They don’t really want my praise either. So, it’s great. But they really actually end up liking working with me because -- except if you’re in [02:02:00] CDAT, in which case I just have to intimidate people, unless you’re in one of the departments that just was too macho, and then, I’d find other ways to deal with it, but ultimately to get them to deal with my staff, most of whom often were women. So, that was -- so, we’d do a two-step on them. But we learned how to deal with 69 �all of that. But I really developed relationships. And I was pretty -- we were easy to work with. I mean, around budget time I might have gotten a little bit whatever, but if I had to deal with stuff with the commissioner. But we were -- I was very careful -JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: I never fronted off anybody. I just needed to get the work done. And that’s how I always did it. It was more instinctive than anything else. It wasn’t like I had a plan. I just knew I had to get the work done. I know how to get stuff done. I know that if you want -- that if I’m the person you’re talking to and I don’t have anything to say about getting it done, then I’m the wrong person you should be talking to. So, if I know that’s true for me, [02:03:00] then I can’t help you if I don’t get to make the policy. I’m just passing it on. So, if I’m talking to somebody and I’m not getting the answer I want, then my first question is, “Who makes this decision? Let me talk to the person who’s actually telling me what you have to tell me?” And I get to someone who can make a policy decision, and then, I would deal with that person. But that would mean that next person who I didn’t yell at who everyone else is yelling at but I was really nice to would then help me out the next time because why get -- you don’t kill the messenger. You don’t need to kill the messenger. You really don’t. Actually, if you don’t, then they can become your messenger too. So, we just worked our butts off. And I had a crew, and we worked. And my staff -- and we worked our butts off and really with the goal of, on a day to day basis, we were going to have a material impact. And then, I would go downtown and ask all these questions and force the issue. Now, 70 �Daley’s point of view, I think, [02:04:00] politically was that -- he took over in a very polarized situation. And he had initially around him this very tightknit group of people who were whatever they were -- I mean, I’m not going to get into that. But really, until they were gone, it was impossible to deal with them. I mean, Yules, Degnan -- Degnan was different. Yules and Degnan were different actually. Yules -- I have nothing good to say about him, so I won’t say anything. But he was -- I’m glad he was forced out of the city. Made a huge difference for everyone. Degnan was really interesting because in 1984 when Harold was mayor, there was a heatwave like we just had and there was a real -- and several people in a nursing home in the west side died. And he immediately -- his whole -- I think [02:05:00] Lonnie Edwards was the commissioner of health. Anyway, we immediately put together a plan to deal with heat that then was used every year after that. We had a few other heat things. And it was a really good plan and it worked. Never had been one before. In 1995, we had another heatwave. And the Daley administration -- it was ironic because it’s all very connected. On Friday had been 90 degrees, over 90 degrees for two days at that point or three days. It was Friday afternoon. So, I called at quarter to five because I wanted to leave a note on my office door. I called the Department of Human Services and said, “Where are your cooling centers,” just assuming they’d have them. They said, “Oh, we’re not opening any cooling centers this weekend.” And I went ballistic on them. I said, “People are going to die. You have to.” They said, “Well, whatever.” The next day at noon, I was at an event called by the Jane Addams Senior Caucus where -- in a church [02:06:00] on Belmont. There were 71 �500 people. The place was packed. And the mayor was there as well. He came to speak to them. And they demanded to know from him -- and I was there too as one of their alderman, and Bernie Hanson was there as alderman on the ward. They wanted to know -- they demanded and got from him at that meeting a commitment to build a senior building. And we ultimately built it. We had (inaudible) when we couldn’t a library there. And I saw him there, and I said, “You know, you really need cooling centers.” And as we left there, the news reports started coming out about all the people that were dying. And on Monday, I met with Degnan and Yules and Victor Reyes and George was with me. And I said, “It is not [02:07:00] in my nature to take advantage of people’s deaths. I’m not going to do it. But you guys have a heat plan that you won’t use because it was Harold Washington’s. And shame on you. And these are the elements.” I gave them 15 points of a heat plan. “And all 15 of these things need to be done by Friday or I will go to the press and I will talk about how you didn’t open up any of the cooling centers and how you did absolutely nothing until people had already died and yet you had the plan you could have used and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you do that, that’s it. I won’t make a big deal about it because the issue here is people are dying and we have to stop it. And I will work with you on this. And I will stay in the background. But if you don’t do it, I will blast you.” I saw Degnan on Friday morning. He said, “We did every” -- I’ve never seen the man smile before. He said, very solemn, “We’ve done everything on your list, everything.” [02:08:00] And then, he gave me a smile. “So, I suppose you won’t be going to the press.” And I said, “If you did everything, we’re cool.” 72 �JJ: (Laughs) (inaudible). HS: But I appreciated that because he took me seriously and he did it, maybe because he took me seriously. I guess it’s always good to be taken seriously. And I would have. I mean, I just -- but I would have been in tears because people were dying left and right. It didn’t make any sense. And it was so simple, the stuff they did. And I look now -- I mean, one of the things was that we made them go get those sprinkler caps and put them on the fire hydrants. And so, when they were talking this week about the heat wave last week and the heat wave and how dangerous that was, I’m like -- I debated whether I should call and say, “Dammit, just go get those things out of storage somewhere? They are really okay, and you can go out there with -- use your caps” -- well, we don’t even have caps anymore -- “Use -- you can do that.” [02:09:00] Because that is -heat’s a real thing. That was just one of my (inaudible) things. But the point, I think, about this notion of -- how do you do what you do and how do you get that done? So, I was really focused on housing. And during the ’90s we had a huge problem getting some of the housing stuff done. We really -- I had -- there was property on Winthrop. In the ’90 census, I inherited the 4800 block of Winthrop. And I had engaged the entire block and the entire building of 4848 in a discussion about what to do with that housing and had -- what to do across the street with the empty land and how to create something that would allow for really a mixed income. Now, when I talk about mixed income, I mean -- what really is anywhere from zero to 80 percent of median income in the city, right? I mean, really it’s sort of -- 73 �JJ: But they don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: How do you create stability? JJ: Right. [02:10:00] HS: And that means being able to have people come and live their lives, which is if today you work, tomorrow you don’t or you really do well but then something happens in your family, whatever -- you have to allow for all of that stuff -- or you’re really doing poorly but you’re working every day. Whatever. JJ: So, that’s the -- the mission is try to create stability is what you’re saying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: Well, yeah, and in the real world so that anybody, regardless of their income, has what they need to be able to have a roof over their head. JJ: But you get into -- how does that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: Here’s the point. The market takes care of anyone who can afford it. And if the market takes care of everyone really, then I don’t care. I don’t need to mess with the market. The problem with the market is that people aren’t able to interact with it, for one reason or another, or the market is destroying their own stability, which is -- depending on where you are with the cycle of speculation. [02:11:00] People in uptown or in Lincoln Park during periods of gentrification often are destabilized and to no fault of their own because that’s what the market is doing. That’s what the government -- JJ: There was some racism involved in it -- HS: Totally. JJ: -- in Lincoln Park (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 74 �HS: There’s always -- I mean, that’s part of the dynamic of the status quo. JJ: Whether it was economic or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: I think that race plays in and out of all of it. I don’t think there’s any question about that. Race is the cutting line in our society. It’s the core of our existence. It’s the core of our foundations as a country. Our constitution, exhibits, in some measure, the history of correcting, improving on the limits of its own founding. And one of those improvements has been, in my view, outlawing discrimination, dealing with issues of racism [02:12:00] objectively in the law. The fact that there’s people today talking about during that back is enough to actually make me catatonic at some moments in time. That’s really a setback that is unimaginable to me but really quite extraordinary. So, it’s an ongoing process because it is part of who we are as a people and is aggravated by any effort or any stronghold individually collectively that we may have that diminishes one group for another’s benefit and then takes advantage of that and has [color of law?] to do so, both personally and economically or in any form of power. I mean, it is what will destroy the country, if it’s not dealt with. I mean, it is what would destroy any society or any culture, whether it’s a small culture -- you’re talking about a small community or one that you’re [02:13:00] talking about a whole government or one that you’re talking about internationally. JJ: Yeah. But I’m saying is that the bottom line is that that’s what happens in those areas (inaudible). HS: Totally. Well, all of them. Well, it’s racism (break in audio) reiterate what I said earlier. I think that -- 75 �JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: No, but I think it’s racism that allows a situation (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it’s racism that allows the situation to occur when it negatively impacts poor people as well, whether they’re -- or any people as well, whether they’re white, Black, or Latino because it is that dynamic, which the core of dehumanization that undermines our growth as people. Sorry. I just think that that’s true. So, yeah, of course. And it’s important to understand and acknowledge the specifics of it at different times, especially when there’s a possibility of changing it or changing [02:14:00] what’s allows. But there’s the legal aspect, and then there’s the practical aspect. JJ: So, is there a possibility of changing that, or is that just going to remain the -- HS: Oh, I think that. JJ: -- the same? HS: Oh, you mean do you think the people are inherently racist? No, I don’t. JJ: No, I’m saying -- I mean, clearly that’s what happened in those areas. I mean, do you agree? HS: I think that there has been historically structural racism in the city of Chicago. JJ: Okay. And then, so what -- I’m just trying to -- I’m -- HS: Okay, so, let me go back to -- JJ: -- have you thought about it? Have you thought about (inaudible)? HS: I always think about the things. I think the -- one of the -- there are two things that Harold did when he became mayor that I think were very insightful. He said that we -- well, there was one thing he said that had two parts to it. He said that 76 �if we’re going to change a city so that it serves everybody, then we’re going to have to deal with institutional racism and institutional corruption. It’s not about individuals. It’s about the institutions that allow people to act in a certain manner and actually encourage them to do so. That’s why changing law is actually important. [02:15:00] Changing laws are all the same thing, different (inaudible). And he said honestly, that takes a long time. And he gave himself 20 years to do it. He didn’t have 20 years. But he put in motion a series of things that really have had a huge impact on the city. And what I was getting to about Daley was that, as a practical politician, he came to a conclusion, which I think was more clear after these guys left, the ones that I was just talking about. But he came to -- or at least he was able to open up his immediate circle to be able to -- whether he thought this before or not, I don’t know -- but clearly a decision he made was that he needed to out-Harold Harold. So, there was a bar [02:16:00] that Harold had set at a moment in time. I think if Harold had been here with us longer, the bar would have continued to rise. But Daley took the bar. He may not have risen it higher, but over the course of the next 15 years, he met that. He actually -maybe even 10 years, no 15. He actually met that. He did a series of things that Harold was very clear about. So, he made sure that we -- he did the affordable housing stuff. I mean, he actually established certain rules and guidelines that the city had to follow. He created -- he worked with the aldermen and make sure we had an ordinance that dealt with minority contracting and did things to protect it and successfully defended it in court. He -- whatever. I mean, there’s a whole list of things. So, that was a smart political move [02:17:00] because he needed 77 �the Black community in order -- he wanted to have the Black community. He wanted to also change his image of who he was. He was doing all those different kinds of stuff. That’s not to say that there’s not a lot of criticism -- I’m just talking about this thing you raised here -- or even that there wasn’t a lot of racism that carries on. But the institutional racism that those things attacked changed, in some measure, the city. The corruptions, it’s clear that -- and everybody protects their situation because they’re protecting themselves, especially when you’re talking about corruption (inaudible) going to jail. If you talk about racism, then you’re just talking about whether -- it might affect someone’s job. But they’re not really -- it’s a little bit -- unless they kill someone. So, the -- plus it’s more -- [02:18:00] I don’t know -- they’re both accepted. That’s the problem. So, with corruption though there’s -- I mean, there’s been so many changes. And the problem with corruption is it’s not just in public life. It’s not just in the city. I mean, it's true with racism as well. But with corruption somehow everyone denies -- people acknowledge racism generally. They may say, “It’s not me,” but they acknowledge it generally. Corruption -- they really like to put it just on the politicians. But the truth is corruption thrives in the political world because it is rampant in the corporate world (laughs) because who else takes advantage of it? I mean, really, who’s always benefiting? So, it gets a little bit more complicated. And to me, the cynicism which is -- what do what we were earlier talking about, about this disconnected or about how viewing things from different perspectives -- which I really liked that conversation. To me, what I was trying to say was -- there’s a line -- and I talked about it as individual versus [02:19:00] 78 �collective. But I think another way to talk about it is cynical versus intentional. So, I don’t have any problem being skeptical. And I certainly have (inaudible) times in my life being paranoid because sometimes there’s a reason to be. If you are assigned an FBI agent, there’s a good reason to be concerned about the FBI. And I’ve had that experience. So, I mean, I know that they’re there. That’s not paranoia. That’s just an actual fact. Whether it makes me be -JJ: Who (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: In Racine we had our own personal FBI agent. We did. We used to talk to him. (Laughs) It was -- I wish (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) remembered his name. I do remember what we looked like. But cynicism is really -- undermines us because there’s nothing positive about cynicism. It saps your energy, and it makes everything bad. And often [02:20:00] when there’s a polarization, which is done for organizing reasons. It’s positive when it’s done in a manner that really has an objective that will create the opportunity for material impact. But then, you have to take that. You’ve got to take the victory and run with it. Do something with it. I think. But if it’s really just about proving something is bad, then it’s just about cynicism, and it does not help make anything better. That’s my problem. All it does is foster anger. And honestly, in the world we live in today, we don’t need any more anger. We’ve got enough of it. JJ: I see. I agree with that. I agree with that. But then, I still see the (laughs) other point. The point is that they’re frustrated too because there’s no -- HS: I totally get that. JJ: -- nothing that -- 79 �HS: Well, and part of why -- JJ: -- has changed in all these years. HS: And part of why we -- well, there have been some changes because I mean -- JJ: No, significant changes because you [02:21:00] have the lakefront that’s really white -- HS: Except in uptown. JJ: Except in uptown? No, like -- that’s (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: But listen, but that’s what’s so frustrating about this. I mean, there’s been a lot of gentrification up here. But we still have been able to make sure -- JJ: Even the word “gentrification” is like -- it’s a nice term to put on what effect on these people’s lives including the youth and the gang and the violence that came from an unstable environment that was created. So, how do we correct it? That’s what I’m saying. HS: And what I was trying to say is that we have -- I have a lot of -- JJ: And I don’t (inaudible). (Laughs) HS: We’ve had a lot of gentrification up here, and we’ve also had a lot of intentional actions to ensure that there continues to be at least some affordability and people [02:22:00] who have fewer resources are able to stay in this community and to be able to -- JJ: I think this is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Well, yeah. But I think that’s important to stress that even though we’ve done that, we still have had a lot of gentrification. And we have not -- I don’t think -and one of the side effects of that is you have this hugely volatile group of people 80 �who are so meanspirited and react -- my opposition became incredibly vicious. And they find excuses for the current alderman, because he’s their guy, for the same things they would crucify me for. I mean, the violence hasn’t dissipated up here. It’s worse. It’s not anywhere near other parts of the city, but it’s still here. And they like to blame it on poor people. And when they blame it -- and they like to blame is the point. [02:23:00] They don’t really have anyone to blame it on now so they come up with really crazy things like -- now they’re blaming it on (inaudible) but the point isn’t blame. The point is -- what do we do about solving problems in our world so that we can all do that? And when there’s anyone -- I think this is sort of the bully mentality -- who is a bully in the sense of saying, “No, I know better, and I’m not going to participate with you.” And it’s happening all over. It's happening in politics all over the country. It happens in communities all the same. And the bully gets the most to say. And yet, if you ever had an election, the bully would never get the votes. I mean, even in a closet ballot in a room, forget a big election. But people are intimidated by the bully and therefore either walk away because they don’t want to have anything to do with it or just shut up. And the bully is screaming and yelling and saying, “All this is about these people that I don’t like in my community because they’re there,” and pointing the finger at someone who made [0:24:00] them be there. And that was the dynamic we had here and continue to have here on some level and I think have citywide. And I don’t know the answer. I mean, right now, I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that. I think that what we did was the right thing to do in terms of the housing. I was going to talk -- I started to talk about what happened 81 �in the ’90s. And unfortunately, I think we lost some opportunities to really -- well, I mean, in ’87 I did and then again in the ’90s. But there were two different times when I tried to create, on multiple properties, owner occupied three flats where we would market the three flats to people who lived at -- basically on teacher salaries -- we were really gearing them toward teachers -- who lived in the community [02:25:00] or wanted to live in the community and who either lived in the community or taught in the community. We were trying to get people who knew the community. If they would own or occupy the three flats and agree to rent the other two units at below market rent -- so, it didn’t have to be low income, but that they would moderate the rents. And they could take in Section 8 or they would moderate the rents. And they would live there and do that. And by doing so, we would create a sort of -- you are orchestrating this. But we would plant that seeds to create opportunities to be the glue between very rich and very poor, which is what we were end up having at some point, and build this kind of sort of -- in building each of these pieces of property, the opportunity for [01:26:00] different levels of people to be living there and different ways for people to be able to organize their lives. And we were focused on teachers because we knew then that they would be focused on their students and on their students’ families. But you didn’t have to go there, but that was the idea that we kind of developed in ’87. We had a whole plan for it, and it was actually killed intentionally during the course of Harold’s funeral. It was the last thing -- the last time I met with him was on the last city council meeting before he died, which was a Wednesday two weeks or three weeks before he died, on the podium. 82 �And he was arranging to meet -- two things we were working on, lights at Wrigley Field and the protection for the neighbors, which is what I wanted, and this housing thing I had, which we were going to go on 17 tax delinquent properties. And to do that, he needed to Dunne to agree. JJ: How was that (inaudible)? HS: We were going to get a hold off 17 properties that had delinquent taxes through a tax reactivation program that the county board had to approve. And he was talking to George Dunn about doing it. And it was supposed to have been a week earlier. And Dunne had -- they had deferred it, and I went ballistic. And he said, “This is all politics. It’s about the city wide politics. It’s about the dream ticket for the February primaries. And give me a few weeks, and I’ll deal with it.” And so, he got me that day and he said, “I’m still working on it. I’ll get back to you. Come in and meet with me. I’ll call you shortly to come in and meet with me.” And then, he called over Rob Meer, and he said, “Meet with Helen. Schedule it now about the protection -- I want you to do all the -- [02:28:00] put in the ordinance for light. We can’t do lights unless we do every protection she wants. Put it in there. Tuesday morning before Thanksgiving -- so, Rob and I agreed to meet Friday after Thanksgiving. Tuesday morning I get a phone call -I’m sorry, Tuesday night -- I get a -- Tuesday -- did he die on Tuesday or Wednesday? The night before he died, I get a phone call, “Come in and meet me tomorrow,” I think it was Tuesday, “Come in and meet,” it was my birthday -- it was Tuesday. “Come in and meet me” -- no, I get a call Monday. “Come in and meet me” -- I don’t know. “Come in and meet me tomorrow at eleven o’clock, 83 �and I got it all worked out.” I said, “Great, fantastic.” So, I get to the office. And I’m on my way upstairs and right on time to walk in at eleven. And Rob Meer jumps in the elevator and is freaking out because he thinks I’m going to go talk to him about his stuff, and we haven’t met yet. And I said, “No, no, no, no, no. Don’t worry about. I’m meeting about the other thing. We’re cool,” get off the elevator. It’s two minutes [02:29:00] after eleven and Harold was dying in his office. First city council meeting we had, Cathy Osterman, who was the alderman of 48th ward, stands up and defers and publishes -- my ordinance to do all this had been passed through finance and was just sitting to go through to city council. It never -- it had been deferred and published to city council, which means you’re going to vote on it. But any two alderman say postpone the vote until after the next city council meeting when the journal is published. So, it had been deferred and published, and we were supposed to vote on it. And she -- no one’s ever done this ever, to my knowledge, before or since. And she puts in a motion to kill my ordinance. Usually they just don’t call it up. But she called it up to defeat it, and they defeated it. [02:30:00] And that was because I voted for Evans instead of Sawyer. So, we lost that opportunity. Then in the ’90s, I brought it back, and I wanted it -- we were going to try and do something similar, new version based on what the city was doing. And the housing commissioner refused to even talk to me about it. Meanwhile, I went and got all the properties assembled. I got a developer to assemble all the properties. And because of something that happened in another part of the city, he then decided he wasn’t going to deal with me. It was taking too long. And he turned around -- even 84 �though I did all the work. But he bought the properties. But I did all the work to make it possible. JJ: Who was this? Who was this? HS: It was Thrush. He turned around and sold all the properties to -- JJ: [Russ?] was the name? HS: Thrush, T-H-R-U-S-H. He turned around and sold -- [02:31:00] we was upset with me about something else in another part of the city. He sold the properties to individual developers for lots of money. So, he made big time money off of it. I mean, I gave him the context that made it possible to acquire it. It was a nursing home and something else. But it was a huge tract of land. So, ultimately what we ended up doing by swapping some city property over the course of time was that I was able to get a developer to build two buildings there. I basically -- I leveraged some city owned property. And he agreed to use two CPAN units, which was a program that I got the city to do which allowed for affordable home ownership. So, we basically built 16 units that sold for $145,000 including parking, to 16 families. And they were all -- there were two -- four of those 16 units were [02:32:00] two bedroom apartments, and the rest were three. So, that was what we got instead of our 17 lots of owner occupied three flats. It took me a long time to do that. And that didn’t happen until this century in 2003 or 2004. But we lost that opportunity in the ’90s. We had a horrible time in the ’90s getting anything done. It was horrible up here. And meanwhile -- just with housing. But I was able to protect the housing we had and get some stuff redone. And then, 85 �we had a little bit done, a few buildings here and there. But mostly -- and then, really protected the health clinic and some of the other infrastructures that -JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: -- poor people used. Yeah. Well, I focused on the entire health system. My goal was to make sure that we continued to have a board of health that [02:33:00] provided service and/or a broader public delivery system, which we had some steps forwards and backwards. When the city was trying to close down Lawndale -- no, not Lawndale -- oh, what’s the community right on the hospital, the University of Chicago Hospital, with a W? JJ: Woodlawn? HS: Woodlawn. Gosh. Woodlawn. I went -- Ruth Rothheimer was at the county. And the alderman was Linda Troutman. And I went to Linda. I said, “Don’t let them close it down. Why don’t you talk to Ruth and see if we can’t just do a partnership with the county.” So, she called Ruth, and Ruth said sure. So, we were able to get that done. But later on, the county gave up the Woodlawn site, so then, I started to get nervous [02:34:00] about it. And so, we started to look at -- because this was -- since the Republicans have been basically withdrawing all public resources, it’s been really a problem to -- you get money like specialized stuff like -- JJ: The Republicans? Where from? HS: Well, nationally -- JJ: Oh, national. 86 �HS: -- the national move to eliminate any funds for local -- so, health wise, the only resources that we -- so, all cities in the whole country in the last couple of years. I mean, I call it a -- we may have a Democratic administration, but we have a Republican shutdown of government. So, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) over the last years as all of the cities and states have had to come to terms with the loss of federal revenues, which is really the biggest crisis we’ve had -- JJ: Okay, so you’re saying we might have a Democratic administration but the Republicans -- HS: Republicans are shut down -- JJ: -- are shutting down -- HS: Nationally we have a Republican shutdown -- JJ: Oh, okay. HS: Because nothing is happening. [02:35:00] I mean, they’ve shut down Congress. So, one of the impacts (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) so, you have an economic crisis. You have a Republican shutdown. You have private industry beginning to come back. But governments all over the entire country on every level having to lay people off, which is the real source of the (break in audio) in the country actually. And it impacts what people get, which -- service wise, which makes people angry. And it’s all done in the guise of dealing with excess money people are spending, which is crazy. I mean, sure, there’s corruption because there’s corruption everywhere, and we can do things better and some stuff we should have done. But oh my gosh. It actually costs money to do this stuff. And now, the only way they’re really dealing with it is by taking away people’s 87 �pensions. So, it's really kind of freaky, if you ask me. But anyway, that’s not what I was going to talk about. [02:37:00] So, there’s been a loss of a great deal of resources on every level of government, including the city. And when it’s on the state, that’s even additional stuff. Because we got stuff from the feds. We also used to get stuff from the state. So, health is one of the areas that’s affected. And the county has the legal responsibility by the state constitution to do (inaudible) healthcare. And the city for many years, since old man Daley was the mayor and wanted to compete for federal dollars for healthcare, has been doing some health delivery. And we have an infrastructure for public health delivery in the city but only through clinics. But the other area where there are federal dollars that are still there and go into healthcare is in clinics, in federally subsidized health clinics. And those are all not for profits, and they provide public health [02:37:00] essentially. And so, my thought was that there were some people thinking in the health department and others that maybe we should do some partnerships. The city can’t get those federal funds. They’re specific to that entity. So, we can’t use them for our clinics, which operate just like their clinics. So, maybe we should do a partnership, and then, we could take advantage of additional federal funds. So, we did an experiment with that in uptown, and they’re doing that with more clinics now. And I’m ambivalent about it. But my bottom line is that the city keep the infrastructure -- we own the infrastructure that we own -- and that it’s a partnership so, that we’re infusing more resources. It’s medical. You need a medical director no matter what. It’s not a bureaucracy. It’s a medical director. So, that’s a good thing. (Laughs) And 88 �you have a qualified medical director, and then, you have qualified doctors. And you do what you have to do. So, they’re doing [02:38:00] some more of that, and then, they’re going this other stuff with the county. But health is really something to be -- now, who knows what’s going to happen with -- there are some of the health laws -- the new healthcare laws are going to be implemented. And then, we’ll see what happens with the election, whether the rest of it is. So, there are changes, and all those things work with them. But at risk in my view consistently is the public infrastructure. And we’ve gotten used to talking about privatization and characterizing it either as bad or as good, depending on what side of that argument you’re on. But the definition needs some -- I think that what I’ve come to believe is that we need to update the definition because when we talked about the clinics, that was the debate. Are you privatizing them? So, from the point of view of asking me how the staff did -- they said, “They were privatizing it. We’re going to lose our jobs. Therefore, it’s privatized.” And when we did the thing in uptown, my bottom line was [02:39:00] no one can lose their job. You can transfer them to another -- two things, no one can lose their job, one, unless they were already planning on leaving and, two, any extra resources that the city realizes as a result of this needs to stay in the public health department and go into other clinics in the city. So, they agreed to that. I think two jobs were eliminated, but nobody was working in them. And that work is being done because it’s structured differently, and that’s okay in my view. But that’s -- you do that anyway. But apparently in the last year -- and I know this only from reading newspapers -- but it sounds like what happened was that a lot of people did lose 89 �their jobs, when I looked at the stuff from the budget last year. Now, some of that changes. I didn’t know what happened in the final budget. I just know when they were done with the articles. But I have to admit to you that when the city budget came out last year I actually read it -- (Laughs) I couldn’t help myself -- and compared it. But I didn’t keep up with -- I didn’t go [02:40:00] to the hearings, so I don’t know what they changed. So, if they in fact are then just saying, “We’re going to just go have someone else do our delivery,” then you really are -- then I think you’re on the verge of that. And so, I thought we had a really good model. And I guess the best I can say that I did all the time is create models. And I don’t think they’re using that same model. And that’s the kind of demand. But if you just says it’s privatization, then you’re just polarized. “I’m for, I’m against it.” Is you say, “Wait, let’s just talk about what needs to happen and how you can make that happen,” then you have a chance. And I think that’s the problem currently out of the box that happened with the teacher’s union -- I mean, you’re dealing with a mayor whose nature is to polarize, really. He also wants to solve problems. I think that -JJ: This is the new mayor? HS: Yeah. I think he does honestly actually want to solve problems. But it is in his nature to go -- you start a fight, he’ll fight back. [02:41:00] And he usually won’t listen. He won’t let up until he wins. Unfortunately, I think that’s overkill in this situation. And I think that the dynamic could have been entirely different. And I would hope that it would change because I don’t think it’s healthy for anyone, whether you’re talking about education or any of these other areas that really 90 �provide service to people around things that are necessary to survive. I mean, that’s the bottom line for me. That’s where government’s role is, whether it’s in the market, not taking care of people, housing market, medical market, whatever. People need to be able to know that they have the ability to survive. And this new categorization of any of that is socialism -- which who cares if it is or it isn’t -therefore as something that no one should want, which Romney does left and right and drives me absolutely nuts because it’s all rhetoric about what’s at risk [02:42:00] and something that he will never understand because he’s never wanted for anything in his life and never really known anyone who wanted for anything in his life is that the world in which he has governed has -- because of the things that he is so much a part of -- has created and perpetuated these -- so many inequalities and so many negative aspects to it that just don’t take into consideration the real needs that so many people have. And if you’re doing that just to even one person, there’s a problem with what you’re talking about. But when you do it to so many, it’s just -- so, I was reading all these little -- people now through Facebook always are sending out all these factoids. So, I don’t know if this is true. But one of the factoids that came out, which if it’s true -- I have to believe might be -- is really -- actually had me sort of discouraged for at least a day is this -- if you take all the money that was spent [02:43:00] this year alone on -- just on all of the Republican primaries, you could probably improve by 10 fold the quality of living of virtually everybody in the world. JJ: If you take all the money (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 91 �HS: Well, maybe it wasn’t that. Maybe it was that everybody wouldn’t have to be hungry. JJ: Of the Republican what? HS: Just the money spent on the Republican -- JJ: Primary. HS: -- primaries. You’d have enough money to make it possible -- I think everyone have a place to live, something like that. It’s like, “Oh my god.” And you know (inaudible) socialist or communist. And I just don’t get it. Maryanne Stamps used to say -- she used to demand that -- JJ: Maryanne Stamps was the organizer of the Cabrini-Green (inaudible)? HS: Yeah, tranquility. Her point was -- start off with welfare rights -- her point was if everybody -- if you had a flat amount of income that everybody had to have which was equal to what you needed to have a place to live [02:44:00] and food on your table, healthcare -- of course, in any other country you’d already have healthcare -- if everyone just had that -- you know, if you had a medical card -- if everyone just had that -- and when she was talking about, that was maybe $8,000 or $9,000 a year, and today it might be $20,000. But then you started from that. Then you would actually -- then all things being equal, people would actually have a chance to be able to do something (inaudible) or go to school. They could work and go to school. I mean, they could do stuff that they just can’t do now because they don’t have the time to spend doing it. And when you say, “Well, they’re lazy. They’ll sit around. They’ll do all that,” it’s all self-fulfilling 92 �prophesies because if you don’t actually make a change and redefine the context, then no one is going to act differently. Are we done? JJ: Any final thoughts? [02:45:00] HS: (Laughs) I think I’ve given you quite a few. JJ: And (inaudible) have another (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Yeah, I saw her. I told you we weren’t going to get done in an hour (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. HS: We actually got to quite a bit. JJ: Any final thoughts (inaudible)? HS: I think that I never have a final thought. (Laughs) JJ: Okay, well, I appreciate that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: It’s not over -- END OF AUDIO FILE 93 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ffe25a1e564a65cc26a6beb55620f3cc.mp4 dbe0498c53ed7a5e5974825263760158 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Helen Schiller vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Shiller_Helen Title A name given to the resource Helen Shiller video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shiller, Helen Description An account of the resource Helen Shiller, a Jewish American born in 1947 in Long Island, New York. Her father had immigrated to the United States from Latvia and her mother from Belarus. She moved to Chicago’s Uptown neighborhood in 1972, living on N. Malden Street. Initially she drove a cab and worked as a waitress. At an early age, she became active in the anti-Vietnam War movement while attending college at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. In Chicago, she helped to organize the Intercommunal Survival Committee with Rev. Walter “Slim” Coleman. The organization functioned as a sort of white support arm of the Black Panther Party and later evolved into the Heart of Uptown Coalition, a group dedicated to providing essential services to the poor. She also edited Keep Strong magazine. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/703dba5be3bfe7245d0fafead1b79784.mp4 f36862e223ba1809698b9d6daf216f60 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f40242c374caf986818469907492d8f7.pdf ee1ef31e6e477cb21286a9eea6689a91 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: Erik, we’re going to begin with: Could you give us some background as to what you were doing before you even heard about the AVG? ERIK SHILLING: I just heard rumors of the Flying Tigers or the AVG at that time and I happened to have been trained in pursuit - it was called in those days - pursuit aviation and for some reason or other I had been transferred to a long-range reconnaissance outfit called the 41st reconnaissance outfit, which was bombers. I also thought that sooner or later - the war had already started in Europe - and sooner or later that we would probably get into it. My feeling was - two things - that I could possibly get back into fighters and the other thing, by getting into fighters and going to China and fighting against the Japanese, I thought their equipment and possibly their training wasn't as good as the Germans and that by going over there I could get combat experience at less expense - so to speak then when my contract was over in China I could come back to the States and possibly get back into fighters. Because I felt that flying bombers were almost like a sitting duck. You can't dodge, it doesn't depend on your skill at all and you just follow your instrument there and the bombardier is in charge of the flight. You can't make any dodges or anything like that. Whereas a fighter pilot, I think it depends more upon his personal skill as to his survival. �FRANK BORING: Let's go back even further, what actually got you interested in becoming a pilot to begin with? ERIK SHILLING: Well my dad was trained and was a pilot in World War I and my earliest recollections were about flying and going to the air field and watching airplanes taking off and landing and this goes back I think the first recollection is about 3 or 4 years old. I can't really remember ever wanting to do anything other than be a pilot. FRANK BORING: Where did you begin your training as a pilot? ERIK SHILLING: Randolph and Kelly. That's the only training base there was at that time. It wasn't until after - I don't know whether the war started or at least the emergency started - then they changed to many other bases of training. But at that time it was only the one. We were only graduating when I went through in 1938 is when I graduated. My class graduated 80 and we only had 3 classes a year at that time, so the number of graduates from the school at that time were rather low. There was no need for any more schools. Now Randolph was primary and basic and Kelly was advanced. FRANK BORING: Once you had graduated, what were your options basically at that time as a pilot? ERIK SHILLING: When we were going to Kelly Field, we had options - we had attack aviation as it was called, which later became bombers - well attack aviation, pursuit aviation, observation and bombardment. So there were only the four options at that time and going from basic to Kelly, we would apply for which one we wanted and normally I guess they would probably try to give you what you wanted. I had put in for pursuit and fortunately got it. FRANK BORING: Tell us if you will during that period of time, what were you doing? You got into pursuit, what were you actually doing? You get into pursuit, you're now at the field, you're doing pursuit. I'm trying to get to why you were even tempted to go to China, but I �don't want you to get into that part yet. I want to kind of get an idea of what you were doing before then that led you to finally go "I don't want to stay here, I want to go somewhere else." ERIK SHILLING: Pursuit was sort of the hot rod of aviation and as I say it depended - we felt that the better pilots went into pursuit. Now of course the bomber pilots and observation may disagree with that, but anyhow one thing that flying school taught you was that when you came out of the flying school, you were the best pilot in the whole world. If you didn't think that you had no business being in combat. But anyhow, flying a small single engine airplane, you were more on your own, you had a heck of a lot more fun, you didn't have to think of other people in the airplane, etc. It just appealed to me more - fighter pilot than bomber, the slow, lumbering airplane. So we would also have a lot more interesting things that we could do like mock dog fighting and acrobatics, which I love, and formation flying. Of course the others get that but not the type of formation flying that we would get in fighters because that would entail somewhat of formation - acrobatics practically. FRANK BORING: What were you doing in the latter part of 1940, early part of 1941 before you actually got involved with AVG? What were you actually doing then? ERIK SHILLING: I was in the 41st Reconnaissance Squadron flying B-18's. We were really supposed to get B-17's but the B-17's were not coming off the production line rapidly enough so we were flying B-18's. At that time the war had already started in Europe and we were doing submarine patrol - one of the things that we would do - submarine patrol. We would go out over the Atlantic about 150 miles offshore and another airplane up at Mitchell Field - about 3 or 4 hundred miles north of us would be doing the same thing. He would go out and then we would rendezvous over the ocean and it was also a navigational exercise and problem. Then when we would rendezvous we would turn around and go back to our respective air fields. We were on the lookout for submarines and would report �them. I don't know what the Pentagon or Washington did at that time, but anyhow that was one of the things that we were doing fairly early in the war - was submarine patrol. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear about the opportunity that was opening up in China? ERIK SHILLING: I just heard rumors. I don't know why no one - I guess because at that time there weren't any fighters based at Langley Field. I just heard through rumors that they were trying to locate some pilots to go over and defend the Chinese cities and the Chinese roadways for their supply routes and so on. So as I say, I felt that was a good opportunity to possibly get back into fighters or pursuit at that time. FRANK BORING: What did you do then to find out about these rumors? ERIK SHILLING: I located the office, which was in New York, one of the offices. I flew up to New York and went in town and I was interviewed by a fellow named Skip Adair, who I met again later on. During the interview he was quite insistent that he was wanting pilots who had P-40 time and I did not have any P-40 time, although I tried to point out to him that I had P-36 time. The P-36 was identical to the P-40 except it had a radial engine and the P-40 had an Allison liquid cooled in-line engine. Then I also said that also I had flown the P-37 which was also the forerunner of the P-40. It looks a little bit like a P-40, but a little bit longer nose and it was an experimental thing. I said also I've flown a Bell Pusher which was called the Aircuda and it had two Allisons. So I said I'm familiar with the engine and I'm familiar with pretty much the same type of airplane. So when I left I was not convinced - I didn't think that he was gonna accept me because he wasn't too promising. So I went on back down to Langley Field and I sort of forgot about it. The first thing I knew my C.O. called me in and gave me a telegram. The telegram was from the Chief of Air Corps. Now I don't know whether he personally had sent it, but it was under his name, �asking me why I hadn't resigned my commission. So I was only too happy to comply and I sent my resignation in right away and about two days later I was on my way. I went up to Washington which was my home and visited my folks and then drove on out to - went by Randolph and Kelly, I wanted to take a look at those airfields where I'd started from - and then came on out to Los Angeles. FRANK BORING: What did you actually tell your parents? ERIK SHILLING: When I had resigned my commission and I was visiting my folks, I had told them that I was going to China and that they needed volunteers to help defend the cities. My dad, of course being a pilot, I suppose sort of would like to have gone along with me, but my mother - although she never gave any indications of not wanting me to go - I'm sure that she had some feelings about my leaving. But they were both very much supportive. FRANK BORING: Why did you then go to the two fields where you first started training? ERIK SHILLING: As I say, it's sort of where I started and both - Randolph is a beautiful field and I've always had a sort of like home in a sense it's my aviation home where I'd started and Kelly - just reminded me of many of the friends that I had made there and I just wanted to see it again. FRANK BORING: It seems to me it was almost like a return to your aviation roots. A sort of a soul searching - before you got to China. Would you say that was true? ERIK SHILLING: I guess - I don't really know how to answer that question. But it was - Randolph and Kelly meant a whole lot to me and it was right at the end of the depression when I first went in and jobs were hard to find and I appreciated the opportunity I had. That the Army Air �Corps at that time had given me to earn a living. I felt pretty close to the Army Air Corps at that time. (break) ERIK SHILLING: The controversy that was going on really had started a little bit before this. As a matter of fact the bomber made by Martin was the first bomber to hit 200 miles an hour and this was in the Pentagon and Congress, etc. They almost did away with fighter airplanes because they felt why would we need fighter airplanes when this particular bomber was faster than the fighter and the fighter couldn't even catch it. At that time then, the Boeing P-26 came out and sort of equaled the speeds and then the Seversky, the P-35 made by the same outfit that made the Thunderbolt later on, same designer, then it was much faster and so the fighters - from that point on - faster than the bombers. But up to that point the B-10 was faster than any present day fighter at that time. FRANK BORING: At the time though were you aware of the controversy between the two? ERIK SHILLING: Yes but as I say it had sort of been resolved when I went to the flying school and it was no longer a controversy that the bomber needed protection rather than was capable of - although early in the war they thought that the B-17 would have been capable of protecting itself, but that didn't last too long either. They started putting more and more guns on it, because the original bomber had no tail gunner and so on. But as the war developed then the bombers started being shot down in pretty large numbers, they realized that they needed protection of the fighters and that's when they developed the longer range P-51. Although the P-51 was originally bought by the British, but it was one of the better fighters in the war. FRANK BORING: Once you left - said goodbye to your parents and went back to the fields, where was your next stop? Was this to San Francisco? �ERIK SHILLING: No, Los Angeles. We stayed in Los Angeles and Mr. Pawley, who was head of CAMCO, which was Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company, they had a manufacturing outfit in China and he arranged for us to stay at the Jonathan Club. The Jonathan Club was, and I guess still is, a millionaire's club and he was a member of this club and quite a group of us stayed at this Jonathan Club until we went to San Francisco just a couple of days before we sailed for China. FRANK BORING: Could you give us an idea of what it was like? You knew the reasons why you were going to China, but was this the first time you actually met a whole other group of what turned out to become some of your closest friends - a remarkable group of people. What was your first impression of meeting all these young adventurous kind of guys in this millionaire's club? ERIK SHILLING: It didn't really impress me too much because we all had the same most of us were fighter pilots and we felt that I guess we were brothers under the skin or whatever. Incidentally, Moose Moss was - I met at the Jonathan Club there and became very close friends with Moose and a very special friend of mine. FRANK BORING: After you left there it was on to San Francisco. Could you explain your stay there? How long you were there and just what it was like there? ERIK SHILLING: I can't remember the exact day that we arrived in San Francisco, but we sailed on the 16th of July on the Jaegersfontein. So we only stayed in San Francisco I think about 4 days - something like that. We were in the biggest group that went out, also the first group that had pilots on board. We sailed on July 16th. Took us about 5 days to get to Honolulu and on the way we used to tune in to probably the person who turned out to be Tokyo Rose. They had an English news broadcast which we used to listen to and they claimed that they knew who we were and what we were going over there for and that the boat would never get there. I guess �Washington took that to heart because one day out of Honolulu we were stopped by two American cruisers. One was the Northampton and the other was the Salt Lake. We were then escorted all the way to the Taurus Straits, which is just north - the narrow waterway between I think Borneo and Australia. There the two cruisers left us and we heard over the radio that these two cruisers were making a courtesy call to Brisbane, so that was the first time that I knew or most of us I guess knew the names of these two cruisers and when we went through the Taurus Straits, we were met by a Dutch cruiser and the Dutch cruiser escorted us all the way to Singapore. The Captain of the Jaegersfontein had some perishable groceries or whatever on board and he wanted to get rid of us and get rid of these perishables and so on and anyhow we got to Singapore and through the British and the American Attaché and so forth, the Dutch Captain was convinced that he should continue on so we then went from Singapore to Rangoon unescorted. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 1 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling describes his background in pursuit aviation before joining the American Volunteer Group and the journey he took to to become a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e0abe70ec8d7bf8f098079d74b9ceb23.mp4 b408d5b54d5f158d4268c7a37f3dec20 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9662dcd0daf0c1a74792eb12d6a755f2.pdf 6c1be5abb104d96a20269a91812005c8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: What did you know about China before you actually went out there? ERIK SHILLING: What I knew about China at that time was only what I'd seen in the newsreels and it was showing what was commonly called the Rape of Nanking and the atrocities that had been done on the children and the women and the bayoneting of them and one picture stands out in my mind most of all was this little kid, maybe 9 months or a year old sitting in the middle of this devastated railroad station, just crying up a storm. It looked like the little kid had been burned or something like that and my heart went out for him and the other people that were suffering. So this was another reason why I went over there, was because how I felt and I wanted to do something about it. FRANK BORING: In San Francisco or even before that, what were you told about how much you could talk about your mission? I mean the secrecy involved. ERIK SHILLING: When I left New York I wasn't aware I was being even considered so I didn't really - wasn't given any secrecy, but I assumed that we shouldn't talk about it. It wasn't until we got to really Los Angeles and San Francisco and also when I got my passport and my passport didn't say pilot, it said an accountant. As I say, I even have problems balancing my checkbook today. So that was the �worst scenario that you could have. But other guys had such as farmers and so on, so I knew that we were going over under cover and that we were told that we should not talk about it of course, our own safety being involved. But it was no secret to the Japanese, it was secret to everybody but them I suppose. I don't know how they found out about it. The Japanese as I say - on the boat we found out that they knew who we were and why we were going over. They said that they were not gonna let the boat get there. Of course the Dutch boat was belligerent at that time. I found out later on that there were about 5 German U-boats out there and it was very likely that we could have been sunk by these German U-boats and quite a number of times as we went over, we would stop and the two cruisers would catapult a scout plane off and they would be gone a couple of hours and come back and they would do the same thing. So occasionally we would lay in the water just dead still for almost a full day. Then in the evening they would bring these sea planes back up onto the catapult and stow them and then we'd be on our way again. What was the trip over like? What type of things did you do for recreation? What kind of camaraderie developed? ERIK SHILLING: The Navy had played a game called Acey-Deucy which was a lot of fun and all of the games could be a gambling game, but I wasn't much into gambling so I didn't play any poker. There was another game that was quite popular, cribbage, which was a lot of fun and took a lot of skill, the same thing acey-deucy really takes some skill. Then there was shuffle board that we played sometimes. Then when the bar was open, we'd go in the bar and shoot the breeze and talk about flying and what we might be up against, and spend the rest of the evening in the bar. Incidentally, we ran out of whiskey - out of all drinks before we got to Singapore and then when we got to Singapore, fortunately the Captain of the ship restocked the bar, so we had enough to last us until we got to Rangoon. �FRANK BORING: What were the fellow passengers like and how did you get along with the people who were on board? ERIK SHILLING: They all were real nice people for the most part. There were a couple who I sort of wondered about, and some of them quit early before the war started. I hesitate to say who I didn't particularly like, but there were only two or three that were that caliber. The rest were real nice guys. FRANK BORING: I guess I'm looking at the passengers that weren't AVG. As I understand there were missionaries on board. We've heard a number of stories about different things that happened. I was wondering what your perspective was? ERIK SHILLING: I don't know why, but I didn't get involved or get to talk to them very much. Some of the other guys did, but I really can't recall holding a conversation with them for too long a period of time. FRANK BORING: There was this battle of the music going on. ERIK SHILLING: Well R. T. Smith and Red and - I've forgotten now - but there about 5 or 6 of them that used to harmonize and of course the more they drank the more they became unharmonizing, but it was always fun to listen to them. One of the favorites was of course "Down by the Old Mill Stream" and stuff like that. Barbershop type harmony. FRANK BORING: On the trip over did you have a chance to get on land and go explore some of the other areas? ERIK SHILLING: No. Our ship, although it anchored overnight at Batavia and Jakarta, we didn't get ashore until we got to Singapore and were only about 24 hours there at Singapore, where incidentally, one of the guys missed the boat and he was - the dock area at Singapore is a great big long dock and probably even a mile long - and he got to the dock just as we were throwing the ropes off and we were �already away from the pier, so this guy was running and hollering and jumping up and down the whole length of this dock, for this great big boat to stop for him. But anyhow apparently the harbor police saw him and the boat that went out and got the harbor police and brought him back, picked him up at the end of the pier and put him on board and so he actually made the boat, but he was afraid that he wasn't. So it was sort of funny because he was running and yelling and all that. (break) ERIK SHILLING: One of the guys - and for the life of me I can't remember what I had done to him or what I'd said to him or anything else - but anyhow he threatened to sabotage my airplane when I got out there. He was an ex-Navy guy - this same guy later on when I buzzed Loiwing at the time, he lost his glasses and stepped on them and he had to be restrained from committing murder, I guess. But then there were a couple of pilots but they were immature type of people. I felt that they were sort of like the "Ugly American" and they were irresponsible and not people who I would particularly like to be in the air and have to rely on them. So it was that type of guys that I didn't sort of cotton up to. FRANK BORING: Did you think of yourselves as soldiers of fortune or mercenaries? ERIK SHILLING: No, never did I think as a soldier of fortune. My own impression of a soldier of fortune was sort of a run-of-the-mill type who was out in the Far East or in some of these exotic places and would do anything for a buck and jump on any opportunity. We, I felt were there to do a job and the fact that we were getting better pay, I would never have gone for the pay, although it was a welcome thing. But no one in his right mind I think would go out there and let somebody shoot at them for 5 or 6 hundred bucks a month. It was the experience and the fact that I was helping my own self for later survival, the main reason why I went. �FRANK BORING: Once you arrived in Rangoon, that was the first time you really had an opportunity to get off the ship and get an opportunity to see the exotic east. From what you had anticipated seeing, what did you actually find when you got off the boat in Rangoon? ERIK SHILLING: Well just before we got off the boat, we stayed overnight, we arrived too late in the evening, so we couldn't clear customs and the boat was anchored in the middle of the Rangoon River. The next morning a boat came out and there was a guy standing somewhat sort of in the bow of the boat with a pith helmet and a bush jacket and a swagger stick and looked like he just stepped off a movie set. It turned out to be a guy by the name of Boatner Carney. I liked the guy, but he just - he looked British but he wasn't and anyhow he brought the customs and immigration people and we all cleared on the boat and then when we went ashore, we were all taken to the Silver Grill, where we had dinner and from there we were herded down to the railway station. We got on the train there and they had to - because there were 125 of us - they had to reserve a couple of trains and of course those trains - first class there was not even as good as any class here in the States, rather primitive, much older trains than we had. FRANK BORING: Give us an idea of what your first impressions were? What was the weather like? What was the scenery that you saw around you? ERIK SHILLING: The most impressive thing - and it may sound silly - but the most impressive thing was these gobs of red stuff and we found out later on it was the natives all chewed betel and they would spit this red stuff out - it almost looked like blood - gobs of blood all over the street. I had been to Mexico once before and down in Monterey, so it wasn't the first time I'd been overseas and I didn't - the main thing that impressed me also was the fact of the coolies and rickshaw boys and how they would run and run and run and perspiring. I didn't particularly like to see - but that was their living. But I didn't like to see a human being having to subjugate himself like myself and do physical labor, like pulling these darn �rickshaws and I sort of felt sorry for them. But as I say, I knew that that was the way they made their living. But that also impressed me quite a bit, that here these people, how some of them had to make a living. Then of course as we went up on the train, we then could see a lot of the rice fields that were being planted. Then not too much later, why it got so dark that we couldn't see. But how people had to scratch for a living was the most impressive part of that whole thing. FRANK BORING: Once you arrived - is this the base at Toungoo that you finally got to - what was your immediate impression of - you'd been anticipating coming here for a long time, you had the whole time on the ship to think about it - what did you actually find when you got to Toungoo? ERIK SHILLING: Possibly I was philosophical about the whole thing and I really wasn't as disappointed as some of the other guys, although I was impressed or unimpressed - whichever you might say - the things that impressed me the most was for instance the gravel road, and as we went by we saw one single hangar there that they had to work in and the fact that alongside of all of the roads was big deep ditches filled with gravel and we found out that this was because of the heavy monsoons it was to carry the heavy rains off, and at times even these big ditches wouldn't carry it all off. Even the airfield itself had these same ditches, but much, much bigger all around to try to drain during the monsoon rains. Then of course as we rounded the end of the runway and came back toward our barracks, the barracks were - I enjoyed it - but it left a lot to be desired. I remember one thing that we used to have a lot of different kind of insects and it was always a constant fight with the ants and we would try to tie our cookies or whatever we had and try to thwart the ants and they were the cleverest darn things. They would go down this wire and I don't know how the heck they managed to do it, but there was always a constant battle against ants getting into your stuff. We'd put the chifforobes on cans of oil and they would drop down from the ceiling - all sorts of very �clever - these damned ants. Then of course there were other big bugs, huge darn things and leeches and centipedes. Some of those centipedes were huge. One of the guys, he was putting his shirt on and he'd gotten his left arm in and he was putting this on and a doggone thing dropped down from the rafters just as he brought his shirt up and it got on his back and man, he was yelling and screaming and getting out of his clothes in a hurry. But they were painful, they had some sort of acid and they would make horrible looking welts and then they would get into scabs and so on. Then they had some ants that would excrete some sort of acid and that would be extremely painful. One of the guys by the name of Fred Hodges, we used to call him "Fearless Freddie" because he was definitely afraid of bugs and we had fans in our mess hall and it had netting to keep the bugs out but they would still get in. I'll never forget one time he came into the mess hall and this huge bug was buzzing around like a B-36 practically, low pitched thing, and it got into the fan and the fan whipped it around and threw it down on Freddie Hodges' neck and he went out the door without even opening it, he went right through the screen. So from that moment on we always called him "Fearless Freddie." � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 2 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling discusses his motivation for wanting to help the Chinese people, the undercover trip overseas, and his first impressions upon arriving in Rangoon and Toungoo. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94c1dfd1930f3e3685a2c71f41f3550e.mp4 1ee7e0cd962c12c65e2cd9411ea49649 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c514e1682871e1a210d036de9f733eae.pdf 7c0b9d5b3e41bf372be284d607b230fc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] ERIK SHILLING: During - I don't know who it was, but someone arranged for a man and woman, Burmese, to give a demonstration and a show with some snakes and they had some real long King Cobras and so on and she would - one of the things that she did was - to us most impressive - was to put her hands behind her back and lean way over and actually kiss the head of this cobra. So the other thing that impressed me though was how they knew how to handle the cobras and for instance, when the cobra was up like this, when it would start to strike it seemed like all they had to do was touch the snake on its belly and it would withdraw to maybe strike again. The other thing they would do - the same thing when they were standing they could put their toe of their foot to the side and touch the snake on its belly and the snake would also stop. FRANK BORING: If you could give us a clearer picture of the conditions in Toungoo at the time? ERIK SHILLING: Another thing which is most impressive was the frequency which many of us were plagued with diarrhea or dysentery and the toilets were separate from the main barracks there and there were only about 4 of them for each barracks and sometimes when dysentery would hit, they of course were completely full, so then you would have to revert to the jungle, which was not too far away from our barracks and we were always plagued with dysentery, the whole time I was out there. Although the medical group always tried to �do the best they could in purifying the water and seeing that our food was the best, but then many of us would go to town and have drinks at the railway station there or other places and most Americans always insist on ice anyhow, so lots of times the water we got away from the base was probably the contaminating part that caused this diarrhea. And then of course the change of diet and things like this. The food wasn't the greatest. One of the humorous parts about it was that we used to put ketchup on practically everything and believe me, it must be real bad when you're putting ketchup on cauliflower to disguise the damn taste. But that's how bad - how much the guys would do to make the food a little bit more palatable. Of course our meat was water buffalo and it was really tough. It made a man turn vegetarian - but then the vegetables weren't cooked too good either. FRANK BORING: How about the weather and just the general conditions of your daily life in terms of your clothes and washing? ERIK SHILLING: We all had problems with dampness and what we had was all of our dressers had a light bulb in them. If you didn't put your stuff in there, you would have mold overnight. But our bed sheets were always sort of damp and of course it was pretty hot and humid and then when the monsoons hit, the downpour would just be unbelievable. We'd never seen anything like it and sometimes you'd have 24 inches in 24 hours or stuff like that and that's when these ditches would be overcome and couldn't carry off all the water. A couple of times some of the monsoons caused some of the guys’ accidents. One in particular, a fellow by the name of Max Hammer went in and I guess lost control in the middle of a thunderstorm and was killed. FRANK BORING: What was your reaction to all this? You had a certain anticipation of getting there, you had a job to do, what was your reaction to all this? �ERIK SHILLING: Really, the whole thing was so doggone interesting that it was really - I was afraid of missing something, so I was always looking around for the brighter side of life I guess, because I didn't want to miss anything. To the most part, it was really a lot of fun, I mean the excitement and the experience was something that I had never run across. Here we were being paid and when you get a group of guys like this, even a multi-millionaire can't duplicate it. In other words, you can go on a trip or something like this, but you don't have a bunch of guys all interested in the same thing and have the comradery that develops in situations like this, so it's for the most part, a very pleasant experience, coupled with some difficult situations and some people who were killed. You felt bad about it, but the excitement of the thing was the foremost. FRANK BORING: Let's now get into the formal duties that you were going - you were now being trained in an airplane that you'd never flown before. You were at this time getting classes in tactics, could you give us an idea of the early days when you first got there and began your training? What was it like and what were you actually doing? ERIK SHILLING: When I first got to Toungoo actually it was an RAF base… (break) ERIK SHILLING: When I first got to Toungoo it was a city - or little village and it was an RAF training camp called Keydaw and that's where Chennault had arranged to have us housed and the use of the airfield there. The field was about 4000 foot macadam strip and one hangar and then there were some buildings that he used for lecture hall - this was on the other side of where our barracks were and then when we first got there, there was only one P-40 so we didn't do any flying until - and there were some P-40's in Rangoon ready to come up, but we had to get some pilots available to fly them. So the guys who had flown P-40's before got a brief checkout and then were sent down to Rangoon to ferry the P-40's up and then as each guy got checked out they would be sent down �to pick up the airplanes too. When we first got there Chennault was not there, when I first arrived, he came down later on. My first meeting with Chennault - I had been to Rangoon picking up a P-40 and on Sunday I came back and I went up to about 16 - 18 thousand feet and I dove down and they were playing softball and I went over the softball maybe about 50 feet off the ground doing red line speed which was 480 miles an hour and I pulled it up and did a vertical roll and then went on in and landed. When I landed the mechanics that met me said Chennault got in last night and I said "Oh my God" and so - because of lack of transportation, we'd all gone into town earlier of course and bought bicycles and now most of us had bicycles and we rode all over the place on them - so I jumped on my bike and got to the baseball field and Chennault was pitching - he used to like to pitch - and so I stood on the sidelines waiting to get my butt chewed and when he retired the side he came right directly toward me and it was a big surprise - he says "That was a nice roll Shilling." So from then on, that guy was - I loved him. FRANK BORING: Once he arrived there, did he begin the courses? And if he did, can you give us an idea of what it was like to be in one of his classes? ERIK SHILLING: Not too long after we got there, he started his lecture series… (break) ERIK SHILLING: Not too much longer after we got to Toungoo and Chennault came down from Kunming, where he had been, he started a lecture series about the Japanese, the people of Japan as well and the background of the Japanese people and the airplanes, each individual airplane, what we could expect from each airplane, what we could expect from the pilots and how they were somewhat regimented, but occasionally they would go off on a tangent. I used to enjoy his lectures because he was a good speaker, good lecturer. They were always so terribly interesting and especially the way he presented them. It was almost like everything that he told us, like he was �there, an eyewitness account of everything that came about. Like he would tell us about where the guns were on specific airplanes, the size of the guns, and how fast the airplanes were, and what to expect from this kind of airplane, and where was the best way to attack for the least vulnerability to us, and their most vulnerable spot, and what to expect from the Japanese fighters. The main thing that came out of the whole thing was that it was a very simple tactic and it was so simple I think some of the guys even may have forgotten that it was a tactic, but that was don't ever turn with the enemy. You couldn't turn or try to dog fight. FRANK BORING: I'd like you to explain in a little more detail why that was such a major tactical move. If you could explain in just a little more detail about when somebody gets on your tail what you're supposed to do. ERIK SHILLING: One of the things that - I'll tell you a little bit about bombers and how to attack them and the one bomber that we were up against only had a single gun and what Chennault called a dustbin, it wasn't a turret, but it was mounted on springs or on rubber and the turret gunner would aim that gun with a rudder, sort of a rudder pedal and get it in toward the attacking plane and the springs would spray that area. It wasn't very effective and of course that's where we used to attack it. Now possibly you may have seen occasionally where you see a camera gun, a ship coming in against a fighter and it looks like the bomber is upside down. Now what has happened is that the bomber isn't upside down, the fighter is. So as you come in underneath and you're coming up on it, you want to continue shooting as long as you possibly can. So you roll inverted and you keep shooting and then before you hit him, why you pull away. Then you go back out and climb up and then do this kind of thing, because that's the most vulnerable spot on most of the bombers. I've seen camera gunships that it looks like the bomber was upside down. Then the other thing was the fact that the Japanese fighter planes were, what a lot of people here called maneuverable. That means that they had a very small turning �radius and they could turn inside the P-40 but the P-40 had a higher roll rate and higher diving speed and higher level speed, so when we got into a bad situation, we would roll and dive away from them, but we never attempted to turn with them, because they could turn inside of us and get us. This was the mistake that the military through all of the different theaters down off of Australia and New Guinea were under the impression that that's the only way to fight, was to dogfight and a dogfight of course was a turning circle. They were still doing that late in 1942 and we had been told this before 1942 started - 3 or 4 months before Pearl Harbor. It wasn't a matter of formation flying or two ships or three ships, which a lot of people consider to be tactics, but it was the fact that not to do something dumb like trying to dogfight with them. FRANK BORING: What did you know when you were in the States about the Japanese pilots and their planes? ERIK SHILLING: When I was in the military in the States, and this was the pitiful part of the whole thing, I didn't have the vaguest idea about the Japanese, the Japanese airplanes or what Japan was flying. Although as I understand it, Chennault had sent many, many reports to the Pentagon, but they never came down to the people who would need the information the most, and that was the everyday, run-of-the-mill pursuit pilot. It just was criminal that this information wasn't passed down. There are thousands of men who lost their lives because they didn't have the same information that we did. FRANK BORING: At this time you were going through what Chennault called "Kindergarten" as I understand it. There was some doubt and discussion among some of the pilots that the P-40 that you were flying really was not going to be that effective against the Japanese and that the British, for example, had an airplane that was far superior to the P-40. I wonder if you could give us some �background on that discussion and then how it was eventually resolved amongst the AVG? ERIK SHILLING: There were a group of the Navy guys who, for some reason or other, thought that the Brewster Buffalo was a better airplane than the P-40. They were RAF fellows who were based in Rangoon and so Chennault arranged to try to dispel this fact that the P-40 was not as good as a Brewster Buffalo, both airplanes were American of course, and so he arranged a dogfight with a fellow - I can remember his name even today, Squadron Leader Brandt. He had been sent from England after the Battle of Britain, sort of a rest and recreation thing to Rangoon. He also was an ace against the German 109's and had shot down more than 5 German airplanes at that time, so he was no neophyte, he'd been in combat before. So I was chosen by Chennault to dogfight this guy, so we went up over Toungoo and the British had brought up a bunch of other people. Their "Wheels" Air Marshall so-and-so and I forgot his name, but anyhow, we went up and went up to about 10,000 feet and we broke off and the common way that we used to dogfight was we'd separate and then come head-on toward one another and when our wing tips passed, we would pull up into a tight turn, tight as you could get and we'd start going around and try to get on the other guy's tail or in a position that, had you had guns or were playing for keeps, you could shoot him and it took some lead. Now some of the fellows thought that this guy in the Brewster Buffalo had made some mistakes and then there were others who thought that he wasn't much of a Tiger and my personal opinion was, of course, I was up there closer to the whole damn thing. I thought that the only mistake he had made was being in the Brewster Buffalo and not in the P-40. The other thing was I also felt after reading this article from one of the fellows in his book, that it's damn difficult to be a Tiger in a wet noodle. So as I say, the only mistake he made was being in a Buffalo and I easily beat him. So the fact was that there was no question about pilot ability really when it came right down to it. I was just in a better airplane. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 3 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling describes the conditions in Toungoo at the time, in addition to the meaningful experience he had as a part of the AVG and working with General Chennault. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d16cbfa5c6474bef5e4a46082ee1025e.mp4 bf06fc6e5fd63279bcfd19f879294419 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99f788a20d8d929fc27b544b1337f379.pdf 979ec67dd6e35a40b9bc5e20aa76091c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: We're gonna start off with why you think Chennault asked you to be in this dogfight and if it is applicable, the incident in which you lost the engine - you said you were losing an engine - if you could go into detail about that. Why do you think Chennault asked you to be in the dogfight against the RAF? ERIK SHILLING: I hate to say this, but I think I was pretty good. I think that the roll that I did impressed Chennault. (break) ERIK SHILLING: I think the reason Chennault may have asked me to dogfight the pilot in the Brewster Buffalo was - possibly three different things. One, was I had been in a dogfight with Frank Schiel and I had gotten on Frank's tail and he had gotten into an unusual position and couldn't get out and he had to bail out of the airplane, so Chennault knew that I'd won that combat and then the other thing was my first flight in the P-40 I'd taken off and climbed up through a fairly thin overcast - the overcast was about 6000 feet high and it was only about 1000 feet thick - and I just climbed up through it and when I got to about 10,000 feet, just all hell broke loose, the airplane started shaking and the smoke was filling the cockpit, so I reached down and I turned the gas off and the switches off and everything I could think of to turn off, and I knew that being on top of the overcast, but I knew that I had just climbed up through so I reversed my course and dove down through it so I wouldn't get too �far away, because there were mountains on both sides of Toungoo - fairly high. So I dove down through this overcast and about 3 or 4 miles ahead of me I was headed right toward the airport going about 90 degrees to the runway and as I came over the field, of course it was still smoking and oil was pouring out of it and I guess everyone on the field was aware that I was having a problem, and with the excess speed I was able to make a regular pattern and come in and land. When I landed there was a high speed taxi way that led up to the maintenance hangar and I still had enough speed to go up there and I parked the airplane without any engine right in front of the hangar so they could work on it. So a lot of the guys were sort of - mainly the ground crew were rather impressed about that particular flight. FRANK BORING: During the dogfight itself, if you could give us some idea of what actually happened in the dogfight. ERIK SHILLING: In a dogfight, what you try to do of course is get the most out of your airplane and that is - verges on uncontrollable. In other words, at one stage as you're pulling into a real tight turn, if you go a little bit too far, then you've lost it and you stall and you lose ground or you might even lose altitude. So it's a matter of real fine touch with your airplane and getting the utmost from it. The other thing that I used to do was to turn in a circle from here to a sort of a 45 degree angle and then up at the top of the turn, I would purposely stall the airplane and try to snap roll it and cut diagonally across the circle and I would continue each time and I would cut it and chew off a little bit more of the circle until I finally got around. Once you're sort of on the guy's tail, then it's easier because any mistake he makes - and he's going to be doing his best - so then all you have to do is just stay in there. So consequently, once you're on his tail you've got it made and it's just a matter of just gradually working around. But it's getting on the other guy's tail that both of you are trying your best. Then when you get there, you're trying to wait for the other guy to make a mistake and from then on, as I say, you've got it made. One of the things that he did try to do, was he dumped �his gear and threw his flaps down trying to get me to overrun, but what I did instead of overrunning, I just pulled up high enough, got some altitude to see what he was gonna do and then when he decided what to do, I was back down on his tail. FRANK BORING: When you finally landed, did you get a chance to talk to him, did you guys discuss the thing? ERIK SHILLING: No, I didn't get a chance to talk to him. I wish I could have. I talked to him before we had the combat because we had to arrange certain things like how we were going to conduct it and stuff like this, but after the dogfight I didn't get to talk to him. FRANK BORING: You made a statement earlier that the main thing that he had going against him was the Brewster Buffalo, so could you give us some idea of your evaluation of the Brewster Buffalo? ERIK SHILLING: The Buffalo didn't have top speed. Its speed was maybe within 5 miles of the Zero and maybe had 10 miles on the Oscar, the Oscar is the Nakajima and a Zeke is a Zero. So it had maybe 10 miles on the Oscar and maybe 2 or 3 miles on the Zero. It could not out turn either one of them, nor could we, but it couldn't dive because the big built-in head wind, the radial engine, its diveability was not anywhere near the P-40 nor would it accelerate in the dive although the 40 was heavy, it was clean and it would pick up speed very rapidly. So those guys both in the Hurricane and in the Buffalo really didn't have much of a chance. I really felt sorry for the guys because later on when they started being shot down, I don't know what I would have done had I been in their shoes. FRANK BORING: You also said the RAF was sort of forced dogfight because of the [?]. ERIK SHILLING: The RAF, when they were fighting against the Japanese, were more or less forced into dogfight - if you don't have speed on the other plane, then you have to rely on the dogfight because you �can't escape, so you're then at their mercy and so your only alternative then is to dogfight and try to turn in the best you can and it's just a losing battle really when it comes right down to it. The only time that they would really - I feel - shoot down any of the airplanes was if they happened to have altitude which would give them speed and surprise. I think that most of their victories were because of surprise, not the fact that the Japanese had seen them at about the same time. If that occurred, why then they had a problem. FRANK BORING: During this period of time of training… (break) FRANK BORING: Give us the reaction of the guys when you landed. ERIK SHILLING: Some of the guys remarked at the time that they thought that Squadron Leader Brandt had made a couple of mistakes and another guy said that he thought that he didn't approach the combat like a Tiger and my feeling and comment would be that first of all I don't think he made any mistakes, because from my position up there, I thought that his only mistake was the fact that he was in a Brewster Buffalo and not in a P-40. Had we both been in P-40's, he could have - I don't know - I don't think he could have beat me, but possibly. He would have had a better chance. Then the other thing was, how can you be a Tiger when you're flying what I consider a wet noodle. He was not by any means a neophyte. As I said, he also had been an ace before he came out there in the Battle of Britain, so he knew what combat was about. FRANK BORING: During this period of time of training I understand that a lot of these men had never flown a P-40 before and they have different characteristics. If you can give us the perspective, give us an idea of you, yourself being there, you got a chance to fly and you did fairly well in it, but give us an evaluation, your perspective of the training of these other people. There were a lot of crashes, �Chennault at one point got very upset and grounded everybody, we need to get a better perspective of that. ERIK SHILLING: I really don't understand why some of these guys had problems with the P-40. But the problems that they did have was leveling off too high and that could have been a carry-over from flying boats which are setting up much higher and the other thing was why they were over-shooting - that might stem from an Eagle thing because many pilots when they come in high and overshoot, hesitate to go around, which they should. Lots of times a guy would run off the end of the runway because he was hesitant to go around. So I suggested to Chennault to paint a white line on each approach end about 600 meters in or so and get the guys that if they didn't have the wheels on the ground and under control at that point, that they should go around. And Chennault instilled us - now some of the guys were a little bit angry at first about my suggesting this, I don't know whether they knew that it was from me or not, but they weren't too happy about being treated as kindergarten in the airplane - but it worked. So they stopped overshooting and running off the end of the runway. One particular fellow - and this is sometimes the type of accidents that would happen - one guy, as he was taxiing in started filling out his log book - he knows who he is, but I won't mention it - and ran into a ditch and of course nosed up and got the propeller. So these things were extremely frustrating for Chennault. Another time one of the mechanics was driving along, riding his bike, going pretty fast and watching an airplane come in for a landing and ran into the aileron and damaged the aileron, so that airplane was out of commission for about a week while they were repairing the aileron. Of course he cracked a couple of ribs and so forth and he was sore, but Chennault was even sorer yet. I sort of wonder if any lesser man had these problems that he had, I would almost think that he would throw up his hands and say I quit. I think I would have. FRANK BORING: To give us a better perspective of why he was so frustrated, could you give us a better idea of the supply situation at the time? When �an airplane would turn over like that or a propeller would be damaged, why didn't you just call up the Sears and Roebuck and have them bring one down? ERIK SHILLING Our supply line was at the very end. We were just about half way around the world from either way. One example - we had two big problems - one example was tires. We were wearing the tires out and we even went to the extreme of trying to glue with rubber cement some cups on it to try to pre-rotate the wheel before touchdown so it wouldn't wear the tires out as badly. We were flying with even the cords showing on it. Although I don't believe any of them ever blew out a tire, but that was just good luck. The other was that we also started having spark plug problems and a Pan American Clipper had a full load of tires and it was turned around because of Pearl Harbor and so that had to be turned around and then those same tires had to come across Africa and India to get to us. So we had a real problem - another thing we had a problem with the guns - the guns were a different caliber and some of the ammunition was a problem. In other words, one of the things that we had was - if you charged the guns, once it had been charged and you re-charged it, which a lot of times we would originally do, the ammunition would be hot and sometimes it would sit there and cook off - cook off means that it would get so hot that it would explode and the bullet would go out and sometimes this would hit your own propeller. So lots of times you would re-charge it before this would happen to keep a cool bullet or shell in there and what happened on quite a number of cases was that the crimping on the projectile wasn't good so when it went in and you pulled the shell back out, it would leave the projectile in there and then the next shell that went home wouldn't seat and so that gun would be out of commission. So finally it got to the point that we would not attempt to charge them. Although we did get a couple of our airplanes had bullet holes from their own gun in the propeller. �FRANK BORING: During this period of time with the training, you weren't always training, there was other activities going on. As a pilot you only had so many pilots to so many airplanes. During this period of time you came up with the names of the squadrons and also distinctive markings on the airplanes. I wonder if you could go into an explanation of how the squadron names came up and how the design came up and some of the distinctive markings? ERIK SHILLING: The squadron insignias - at the time when we were developing those, I was with the Second Squadron for a short period of time and we didn't have a squadron insignia and I had been along with Ken Merritt and Lacey Mangleburg, we had been to a dinner at a Reverend Kline and on there he had a Sunday supplement and in the Sunday supplement there was a picture of a Messerschmitt 110 and they had what I call the rotogravure section, it was a sepia colored picture just photographs. Now apparently Charlie Mott was there - I mean Charlie Bond and several of the other guys were there too. But anyhow the next day I went out to the airfield along with Lacey and Ken, we'd stopped by the lecture hall and I'd picked up a piece of chalk and being the only artist in the crowd, I drew the shark's teeth on the airplane and I went to Chennault and asked him if we could use that as a squadron insignia and his answer was that he would rather have it as a group insignia. I understand - of course there were quite a few of the guys there looking at these shark's teeth airplanes, so there were other guys who very possibly were doing the same thing at the same time. So I don't really know who really was the first. I know that I did that, that morning and possibly some of the other guys did it too. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 4 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling discusses dogfighting for General Chennault and the training the AVG experienced at the time, in addition to how the squadron insignias came into existence. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a99ae959ccb16420360a0aa1133aaca2.mp4 dcec33cfcd4566c286d3905a0e79370e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d3fb72a68f41095eecb86fa132e721a9.pdf f2b61113bae47e80b0a5518ea10b555d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: If you could explain to us to the best of your knowledge the origin of the Panda Bear? ERIK SHILLING: The three squadrons - the Third Squadron was the Hell's Angels, it was a very shapely girl, red with white wings painted on the side of the fuselage, just forward to the cockpit; the Second Squadron was a panda bear and to the best of my knowledge it was drawn by Bert Christman, who had been a cartoonist who was drawing Scorchy Smith; and the First Squadron was a man chasing a woman superimposed on a large green apple, which was the first pursuit and they were called the Adam and Eve's. The panda bear was of course a symbol of China and the second group felt that that was somehow or other we had to get China in there as well. (break) ERIK SHILLING: The Second Squadron was the panda bear, it was a symbol of China and it was drawn by Bert Christman, who was an artist who had been drawing a comic strip back here in the States by the name of Scorchy Smith. He also did a lot of sketching of different scenes, Burmese people, etc. and I used to see some of them. They were very well done and quite interesting. I often what ever happened to those pictures or drawings that he had made out there. FRANK BORING: One of the things that happened during the training there, was not only damage of airplanes but there were actual fatalities. If you �could describe in terms of your own personal reaction to the deaths themselves, the effect on you, the effect on morale. Realizing the seriousness of what was to come. ERIK SHILLING: Well I was group engineering for a while and whenever we would have these accidents I would have to go along to try to decide or determine what was the cause of the accident. Also Doc Gentry was another one who was on the accident investigation board and we had - I can't remember the sequence now of them - but two most impressive accidents was this Max Hammer, who had gotten caught in one of the real bad thunderstorms we had and one evening after we were all in he didn't show up and it wasn't until later on that night when a native came in and said that this airplane had crashed near his village. So he volunteered to take us to the crash and we didn't get there to the crash until maybe 11 or 12 o'clock at night and after this downpour of rain, everything was flooded and sometimes we were walking up to our knees through water and it was about 3 or 4 miles out into the jungle off the road. When we got there the airplane had crashed practically just straight in because we could tell from the high jungle trees how it had descended. It almost came in vertical. He hit so hard that it looked like about a thousand pound bomb had exploded. The mud and dirt was thrown out, the airplane crushed down upon itself and the wings they were only about this long because they'd crumbled down on to themselves. I know that he didn't know what the heck ever hit him. Then the next accident we had was on a Sunday. (break) ERIK SHILLING: An accident we had was also quite impressive because everyone on the base heard it coming. It was on a Sunday morning and Pete Atkinson was on a test flight. He was the only airplane that was flying that day and he had mentioned to the mechanics on the ground that "I'm gonna wake up the boys in the barracks" so he meant that he was gonna go up and give us a buzz job and I was awake but I was lying on the bunk - trying to keep cool with heat and the first thing I heard was the prop noise of the airplane. Now �the P-40 never had prop noise. In other words, the RPM of the propeller wasn't high enough for the propeller to make the noise, so when this prop noise - it was so unusual that all of us ran out to see what was happening. But before we got out there, we heard this muffled boom and it wasn't until years later that I found out that he possibly - some of the airplane was sonic - and it was a sonic boom that we had actually heard. So what happened was that the airplane just completely disintegrated and part of it - the engine had landed on a rice husk - a mound of rice husks maybe about 40 or 50 feet high, so it was completely intact, so was the propeller, it was all in one piece. Pete Atkinson was thrown out of the airplane. He was still strapped in his seat, so he was unconscious certainly at that time or killed, I don't know. The airplane also landed and when we ran out we could just see parts of the airplane just fluttering down. So the only thing that we could determine was the fact that he had just gone way over red line and of course a red line was 480 miles an hour and he must have been going maybe 50 miles an hour on top of that, I don't know. But perhaps some part of the airplane had flown - a piece had flown open or something and the wind caught in then just disintegrated it. FRANK BORING: What was the effect of these accidents on your fellow pilots or on you? ERIK SHILLING: My own personal feeling of every accident that I've ever heard of, you always wanted to try to find out what happened and mainly although I hate to say this - but you were somewhat relieved when you heard that it was pilot error and the reason I say this is you felt then if it were pilot error, you wouldn't do that. Now if it were something like a malfunction or something like this, then it could happen to you. But every time you heard that it was pilot error, you sort of got hardened to it and felt well hell, I won't do that - it won't happen to me. FRANK BORING: By this time you were all getting fairly proficient in the P-40. A lot of the accidents were not as frequent and you guys were getting �very good at it. Just prior to hearing about Pearl Harbor, what was the mood, what were you feeling like? You were hearing stories of the Japanese were advancing in various areas. What was your mood, you're in an airplane now and you're ready to fight, what's happening? ERIK SHILLING: It was one of excitement really and wondering. Of course we weren't always able to get all of the stories and many of the guys, we had a sort of a newspaper and we'd get this stuff from our local newspaper and then from the newspapers of Burma that were in English. I happened to be in Rangoon at the time, spent the night there and the next day I heard that the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor and so my thought was my immediate need was to get back to Toungoo and when I got back there, I left very early that morning and Chennault already had dawn to dusk patrol protecting Toungoo, because we had no warning there. The British had an early version of radar at Rangoon, but it was not completely dependable and the range was not too great either, maybe between 50 and 75 miles. So our warning was not too long a time and I guess it - I can't recall anyone remarking about the war at all. We just felt that now we're here and gonna have to do what we originally came for, but now there were other people involved besides us. It was sort of watered down what we would probably be up against. FRANK BORING: What were the following days like? It happened the December 8th your time, but people didn't start to see action until the 20th. What was that period of time like in terms of anticipation? Because you really thought the Japanese were coming. ERIK SHILLING: We went on a photo recon flight. It was Bert Christman, Ed Rector and myself and it was on the photo ship that we had converted - so anyhow we went to Rangoon and then from Rangoon we went to a place called Tavoy. This was on December 10th and Chennault wanted to find out what the disposition was and what to expect and we left Tavoy, climbed up to 26,000 feet and when about 50 miles �out I took over the lead and then Bert and Ed dropped back about 500 feet and 700 feet above me to protect me because I was busy directing the camera and getting the airplane set right over the top of the target and I couldn't be looking around for Japanese incoming. So I first took a picture along the whole dock of Bangkok, taking pictures of whatever ships were in the harbor and then from there I turned north and went to the airport there called Don Muang and in the photo there were 92 airplanes almost wing tip to wing tip. They'd moved in that fast by December 10th and one of the things - I had to rock the airplane up to knife edge because you're sitting right over the top of the wing and to get to position the airplane you had to go knife edge to get the airplane and then I would start the picture going and it was automatic then and then when you finished your photo run, you'd turn it off. What happened was on this knife edge the oil pump was uncovered and it started pumping air, consequently the oil pressure went down to zero, but while I was doing this I wasn't aware of it, so then when I turned and started back to Rangoon, I looked down and the oil pressure gauge was on zero and I thought what the - a hell of a way to start a war, that I would wind up already as a prisoner of war. But then the oil pressure started fluctuating and my heart rate went down as the pressure went up and it finally went back to normal. So I started a descent and we were indicating about 400 miles an hour, so the Japanese would never be able to catch us and we wound up back over the coast at about 10,000 feet and went on in to Rangoon and there the pictures were developed by the RAF and it showed the Jap airplanes by that time. We couldn't tell how many were in the hangars but there were quite a few hangars there too, so the hangars very possibly were also full. FRANK BORING: Did you ever have a chance to talk to Chennault about - did you actually sit down with him and go over these photographs with him or did he pretty much take them off to the side? �ERIK SHILLING: No, they were taken over sort of by Harvey Greenlaw and some other of the staff. No I didn't get to talk to him about the photographs at all after I brought them back. FRANK BORING: What was your reaction to seeing all those Japanese planes all in a row? ERIK SHILLING: Just wishing that we had a bomber, because what a setup it would have been if we just had a few B-25's at that time. Of course the British had the Blenheim's and they were antiquated bombers at that time, very slow. So we were just wishing we'd had bombers. (break) ERIK SHILLING: After I turned north to photograph the airport at Don Muang, the weather was extremely clear and you could see maybe 75 miles, so it was easy to distinguish stuff on the ground and I could see that all these bombers which were verified in the photos later on, there were 92 of them. Of course at that time I didn't count them, but they were just parked wing tip to wing tip and I was just wished instead of being in a fighter, that's the only time I ever wished I'd been in a bomber. If we could drop a couple of bombs right in the middle of that thing, it would have made our job later on much easier. FRANK BORING: After this period of time you were transferred to Third Squadron. ERIK SHILLING: After the photo mission I had requested to go with the Third Squadron and fortunately it was accepted and so I went down to Rangoon when the Third Squadron was ordered down and while we were there, we went on a couple of false alarms and then on the 22nd I got word that the CW-21's that I had to Chennault about and had flown, had been purchased by the Chinese and three of us were to fly the CW-21's to Kunming. So on the 23rd we left just about daylight and flew from Rangoon to Toungoo and we had to have some maintenance work done on them and also some long-range �tanks installed. They were long-range droppable wing tanks. So we left - and the Japanese hit Rangoon at about 10:30, so we fortunately got out of Rangoon before the Japanese hit us on the 23rd. Then when they were working on the CW-21's is when we heard that Rangoon had been hit. Then we felt that we had to get out of Toungoo as well because Toungoo had no warning net at all. So after the tanks were finished and installed, and the few things that we could do there, we left. But we didn't have any radios in the airplanes because all of the radios would have to wait because they'd been taken to Kunming. So we took off from Lashio - I mean Toungoo for Lashio, which is about 150 miles north of Toungoo and on the way to Lashio, my engine backfired a couple of times and so when we landed at Lashio one of our crew chiefs, a fellow by the name of George Bailey, happened to meet the airplane and I talked it over with him about the backfiring and we came to a sort of mutual conclusion - the airplane should have used what we called 80-87 octane fuel and the P-40's needed 100-115 octane fuel and the higher octane can burn the exhaust valves and with the higher heat it also sometimes the exhaust valves would stick and that's what caused the backfiring. So we decided to drain the high octane fuel out and put in the fuel that was required and also there were no maps available for the hump trip to Kunming and I felt that possibly we could get the maps in Lashio. Well when I got there another disappointment, they didn't have maps there either. So the only maps that we had for this flight was a pencil drawing of the route and it showed Lashio and it showed Kunming 330 miles and a heading of about 60 degrees and then there was a line that went up like this and then on back down - that represented the Burma Road and then there were a couple of lines that were rivers and that was all we had to navigate with. Now I had been to Kunming once before, but that was on top of an overcast, so I didn't get to see very much of it. So when - Lacey was the first airplane to be defueled and refueled and when Ken Merritt's airplane was finished they had come over to mine and about this time, Lacey had taken off. Now I didn't know that he was gonna take off, I thought he was going down to the end of the runway and �check his mags and stuff and see how the fuel was doing, so he took off and I was really disappointed because without the maps now I knew that I would have to brief them as much as I could about the trip. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 5 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling discusses the origin of the Panda Bear representing the Second Squadron, in addition to his personal reaction to the fatalities among the pilots and the photo reconnaissance flight he took with Bert Christman and Ed Rector. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/35baf8c6485fe6f0e0d331bbd76ae755.mp4 7503000ecf199eadb78a6c07654b5bce https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2116da6cd886dee245d6bd30179eb35d.pdf 9e7f0b5152bcbd6c92ba15dbaaefe910 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] ERIK SHILLING: When we were installing the camera in the P-40 I had made several trips to Rangoon to check with the RAF because we'd gotten the cameras from the RAF and on one of these trips I saw a fantastic, beautiful little airplane called a CW-21 and I wanted to fly it and I talked to Walt Pentecost and he said that he could arrange it. So the next trip down I got to fly the airplane and it was so outstanding. It had a rate of climb of over 5000 feet a minute and compare that to about 2400 feet a minute with the P-40. So I felt that it would be a real good interceptor to shoot down observation planes and I went to Chennault when I returned and talked to him about it and he thought it was a good idea. So later on, the arrangement had been made to buy these things, but at the time I wasn't aware that this arrangement was being made. So that's why we had been ordered to pick up the CW-21's and take them to Kunming. When I was in Toungoo, I knew that I wouldn't be going back down - it was a permanent change of station - so I had a camera and a wind-up gramophone and a bunch of records and all of my clothes and everything else. So I put the record player underneath me and put the records, bundled them up and protected them with clothes and so forth and the baggage compartment was also loaded, so I had everything that I could get into the airplane. Then when we were at Loiwing, as I came back to the airplanes and Lacey's airplane had already been finished refueling and he took off to check his airplane and I wanted to brief him, but when the air raid siren came, we couldn't wait for him and without radio contact I couldn't �tell him that the Japanese were coming in, so I felt that the best thing to do was to get airborne and lead him and get away. So we then departed for Kunming. About an hour into the flight before the engines started backfiring and I thought everything was fine and when the engines started backfiring I started losing speed and I knew that Lacey had no briefing whatsoever, didn't have the vaguest idea what was going on and at that time when I started looking for a field to set down in, I spotted a CNAC airplane that was going - had departed Kunming and was going to our destination - was where we had departed from. So I knew that we were right on course at that time because he couldn't have been too far off. So I felt that if I could get these guys to see the airplane, they would realize that we were okay and if I went down to continue on and they would be in Kunming within a few minutes. So when I turned and headed for - unfortunately the CNAC plane was camouflaged. But anyhow, when I turned to him I didn't even have enough power to catch the airplane and normally the CW would have at least 100 miles an hour on him. So when I was losing ground and I wiggled my wings and pointed, hoping that they could see the airplane, but unknown to me I had already lost Ken as I turned and he was … (break) ERIK SHILLING: So when I pointed to the transport and felt that they had seen the airplane, then I turned around and went back on course to Kunming. It wasn't about 5 minutes later that I didn't even have enough power to maintain my altitude and I started descending and I either had to bail out or belly land and I didn't want to bail out and I spotted a clearing off to the left and I started gliding toward this clearing. The clearing was on the side of a mountain about maybe 1000 feet down below the top and one thing that saved my neck here was the fact that I was over-shooting and I had to dive, try to get into this clearing and the more I dove, the more speed I got. But this - when I got there I was over-shooting so badly, that with the excess speed I was able to parallel the mountain and just mush into the trees and I remember looking at the air speed just as �I hit and it was set at 100 miles an hour. So then when I hit the trees and the airplane started bouncing around and everything, everything went black, although I wasn't unconscious but I was aware of the airplane and the only thought that kept going through my mind was when is this damn thing gonna stop. When it finally came to a stop I jumped out of the airplane without thinking and ran down this slope to this open area and when I got there Lacey Mangleburg was circling and I had mentioned that Lacey, if I have a - I was having engine problems so I said, Lacey if I go down, throw me your gun and he agreed, so as he came over the last time, he had the canopy rolled back and I could see he had his hand over the side and dropped the gun and when the gun went below the top of a mountain in the distance, I lost it. But I could hear it hit in the brush, so I spent about 30 minutes looking for it and I still couldn't find it and it was getting drizzle and colder and I sort of decided I'd go back up to the airplane and when I got there the airplane was the whole ground was flooded with gasoline. So I then decided it would be better to stay away from the airplane for a bit and I stayed underneath another tree there until it got real dark and I started hearing noises in the woods and decided it would be safer to get in the airplane than it was out here underneath this tree. So I spent the night in the tree and I pulled the parachute and I wrapped up in it, trying to keep warm, but anyhow I didn't sleep worth a damn and the next morning I was real thirsty and I started using the leaves off the trees, licking those and trying to get some moisture from them and about this time a native and a little kid about 8 or 9 years old came up the trail. The airplane had come to rest only about 20 miles from this trail and when they got within about 20 or 30 feet from me, it was the first time they sort of noticed my standing there, and they came to an abrupt stop and I had a passport in my pocket and I reached in because it had some Chinese writing on it and I reached in and I guess they thought I was reaching for a gun and they ran. So there I was by myself, but about maybe 45 minutes they came back with maybe 100 or couple of hundred people. One of these guys was a real belligerent ass and he got up close to me and he was talking to me in Chinese and I �didn't know what he was saying and I was trying to answer him in English and I used one word that I knew like "Megwo Ren" means American, but with 400 or so dialects it didn't mean anything to him either. Then I happened to think of this passport again with the Chinese chop there and I reached in and gave it to him and he took it upside down and he was a big shot - so when he took it upside down and he was thumbing through it, I was frustrated and angry and I snatched it away from him and I turned it around and said "Here, you stupid s.o.b." and gave it back to him and everyone there just broke out in laughter and he lost so much face that he disappeared in the crowd. So from that moment on the crowd became more friendly. But he was working them up into a sort of an angry mob and I was really concerned about my life. Anyhow, with him gone, they still built a stockade, cut trees down, built a stockade around the airplane and I was told to stay inside there and they covered the airplane up so it couldn't be seen from above, and this was sort of my first indication that they thought I was maybe Japanese. These people were in such a remote area that they had never seen a Caucasian before and they did know that they were at war with Japan and here I was certainly not a Chinese and I was flying in an airplane with guns and so they put two and two together and got the fact that I was Japanese and my hunch was correct - which I found out later on. But then when they didn't bother me I thought well maybe they're gonna hold me for ransom, because I'd read Terry and the Pirates and stuff like this and so I felt I didn't know when I would get back. But anyhow that night they built a fire and had a kettle and each one of them had a little pouch and they put rice and vegetables and just boiled it in this kettle and they all had rice bowls and they gave me a bowl of rice and I had the only chop sticks amongst the crowd and they cut down some twigs off some trees and used them as chop sticks and these guys were almost Neanderthal types and as they were eating and they'd see my bowl getting a little - they'd suck on the sticks until they were clean and then they'd reach in this thing and give me some more food and that sort of spoiled my appetite. So anyhow, it was late the next day that I saw a distinct change in �their attitude toward me and what happened was that I had landed near a warning net station and the warning net was the last one that had reported me and they told all the natives to be on the lookout for me, that I was fighting for them. So then they built a sedan chair to carry me in and out of part of the parachute and the shroud lines, they put all of my clothes and bundles of stuff wrapped up in the parachute and they took the machine gun ammunition out of the guns and carried that too. So then we started down this trail and in one place - I wanted to walk but they wouldn't let me - it was quite apparent now that it was an honor to carry me. So in some of the gullies, it was a real deep ravine and the first guy would go into the apex of this thing and then they would both back up a little bit and this guy would go out and come around and then he would have to back up for the rear guy to get into the apex, and here I was hanging out over this damn ravine a couple hundred feet down below me and I wanted to walk in the worst kind of way. But the thing was so narrow that I couldn't have gotten out at this point. But anyhow we got to the village late that night and that's when I found out - although the Chinese radio operator couldn't speak English, he had a Chinese/English dictionary and I was able to thumb through that and then he would thumb through it and I got the gist of the fact that yes, they did think I was Japanese. But anyhow we left the next morning and it wasn't until I saw Doc Rich and Ken Merritt that that's when I found out that Lacey had been killed. They both, for some reason or other had - they were within about 5 minutes of Kunming and yet they elected to try to attempt a landing and had they continued on, they would have been able to see the big Lake at Kunming within about 5 minutes. (break) ERIK SHILLING: About the same time that they were building the stockade around me, I decided to start unpacking the airplane and then… (break) ERIK SHILLING: About this time they started building a stockade around the airplane and myself… �(break) ERIK SHILLING: As the natives descended upon me and the airplane, they built a stockade around the airplane and they didn't seem to be very friendly and they even covered up the airplane with some leaves so it couldn't be seen from above and this was sort of my first intimation that I was being taken for Japanese rather than who I was, because they had never seen white people in this area - they were very, very remote and backward at this place. When they were building the stockade, I started taking stuff out of my airplane and when I offloaded my Victrola I decided maybe if I started playing that it would sort of take their mind off me. So fortunately, none of the records were even broken and I just picked one of the records out and it happened to be a record very appropriate to the situation called "High on a Windy Hill" and every time somebody new came up I would have to play this record for them. In those days you had the needle would only last one record, so you can imagine I had very few needles and by the end of the day you could hardly distinguish what was being played, but they would look in there and even feel and wondering what was - were there little men in there or what I don't know. FRANK BORING: After coming back from that incident… (break) ERIK SHILLING: Some people seemed to think and I really don't know - I didn't have what was later on referred to as a blood chit and had I had this blood chit it would have certainly been handy and we were later issued this blood chit which said that we are flying for the Chinese and that if we go down to help them and there would be a reward for helping us to get back to Kunming or the headquarters or notify some Chinese soldiers and so on. So it's possible that this was as a result of that but I don't know. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 6 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling describes the time he was ordered to pick up CW-21 airplanes and take them to Kunming when his airplane went down in a remote area due to engine problems and he survived among the native people. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2ea722654a84e2f107dfaf378f67aa81.mp4 7b1c6ac3845e1bf1875d5012c3282e79 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7eed01bd4277bcfaed96b1fa993171d4.pdf b4ed7e105b45e63e9699b3d0cd6af8ea PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] FRANK BORING: What was the reason for your decision to change from the First Squadron to the Second Squadron to the Third Squadron? ERIK SHILLING: When I first got to the AVG I was assigned to the headquarters squadron and when it came time to be assigned to one of the combat squadrons, I was assigned to the First Squadron and I didn't particularly like Sandell. I didn't think that he was very much of a leader and I think that as far as pilot ability, although the guy is dead, I didn't think too much of his flying ability and I didn't want to fly with a guy who was leading the squadron. Then I went to the Second Squadron but I always wanted to go to the Third and I had some personal - although Newkirk may not have known it - I had a personal sort of a dislike for Newkirk as well. He was always I thought on an ego trip and when I finally got to the Third Squadron, I was quite happy. Besides I'd run out of squadrons. FRANK BORING: Let's go to January 17th and McMillan was leading a flight, this was your first taste of battle. Could you give us an idea of what this was like? ERIK SHILLING: On January 17th we were scheduled and ready to go on another photo recon flight and we already had the engines running and someone came out from operations and told us that there were three bombers inbound toward Kunming and so instead of the photo recon, because the airplanes were ready, we took off and �intercepted them almost 125 miles away. My first impression was that I could hardly believe my eyes, there must be some mistake that these can't be Japanese. I had heard other guys had the same feeling, that they can hardly believe it until they start into the combat and George McMillan was the leader, Chuck Older, the guy who was a Judge and Tom Haywood, the four of us and we shot all four of those guys down. I think that I may have gotten the leader because my thoughts were this. There were only three of them so I didn't have to worry about any others and I felt that if I aimed for the leader and just sort of let my bullets drift on back, if I didn't get the leader, I could get one of the wing men and actually the leader was the first to go down. I sort of halfway think that I may have gotten him. (break) ERIK SHILLING: When we intercepted these three bombers coming in and my first impression was that they couldn't be Japanese - I just had a hard time convincing myself that they were enemies, they seemed so peaceful and so forth sitting out there, but then as we got closer I could distinguish the markings on them and so we split, there were four of us and two of us on one side and two of us on the other, and then we started making almost simultaneous attacks from each side and as the one guy came in and broke away, then I would be following and break away and by that time the leader on my side, McMillan, was attacking again. So we just kept this up from both sides. The leader went down first and at that time, they had already turned and were going back toward their departure point. The amazing thing to me was, when the leader caught on fire and the smoke was pouring out you could see the flames and I passed almost right over top of him and I could look down and it looked like the airplane was almost red, it was so hot and what impressed me was the fact that these two guys, the wingmen hadn't budged an inch, they were still sticking in there and we sort of broke off shooting at them because we were afraid that the darn thing would eventually explode in our face, so it was after he started going down a little bit and the wing men then closed up and then the �other right wingman was flying on the other one and so he finally was no doubt about it, he was finished. Then the next one started on fire, smoking and finally the third one started and then I broke off first because I only had one gun left that was firing which was a 30 caliber wing gun and it sounded awful lonesome out there and besides they were finished then, so I headed on back to Kunming and I came over and did a barrel roll and all the rest of them did too. It was - it's difficult to really put into words your feeling at that particular moment. You know the adrenaline is going and things have slowed down sort of into slow motion and I guess it's the adrenaline that does that. (break) ERIK SHILLING: On my first pass I figured that I would shoot at the leader because there were only three of them involved and the distance between the leader and the wing man was quite small being in a close formation. So I felt that if I aimed at the leader and let my guns drop back a little bit I could get maybe both of them at the same time. So each pass I made I was at the leader and I think that I probably was the one that got the leader. FRANK BORING: What did you think of the Japanese pilots that you fought against? ERIK SHILLING: The Japanese pilots to me seemed to be extremely disciplined. It's difficult to say because you see a bomber formation - and I never was up against fighters - so a bomber formation and the pilots in that type of formation are a completely different type of man than the fighter pilot. FRANK BORING: What kind of airplanes did you fight against - did the AVG fight against? ERIK SHILLING: We fought against the - what we called - it was a little bit different than the military called them - we called it the I-96 which is a fixed gear airplane, and the I-97 and the Zero. Now we didn't claim any Zeros until about March. We never - in the combat reports they �were never mentioning Zeros being brought down over Rangoon. There was one guy by the name of Donovan, who had been in combat over Rangoon and the Zero was known as a Zeke and the 97 was known as the Oscar. So when he came up against the Zero and I'm convinced that it was a Zero - because he already was in combat against the Oscar. Now in his combat report he went into considerable detail telling about the guns and the type of tactics that he was using and the fact that it was - he even used the correct nomenclature for the Zero that the Japanese - which A6M2 - and he even used the correct nomenclature, which leads me to believe he knew what he was talking about. So it was an entirely different airplane that he had run across over Rangoon. FRANK BORING: Part of the danger in war is not only getting hurt, but also literally getting killed. Amongst the various people that you found didn't make it, who would you say sticks out the most - who affected you the most? ERIK SHILLING: The one person that hit me the hardest was Lacey Mangleburg. We had become extremely close during our training in Toungoo and the fact that he was on the same flight with me and when he tried to belly land his airplane and was killed and that affected me - I felt real bad about it for quite a few months later. I don't suppose it was until after the AVG was over that I really was able to forget about it. FRANK BORING: I'd like to go through a few of the people that you knew. What was your evaluation - or perhaps just look it from a personal point of view during that period of time - of Claire Chennault? ERIK SHILLING: I loved the guy. I loved Chennault. The other guy, Harvey Greenlaw, I think most of us sort of felt that he was somewhat of a buffoon. I had no - not too much respect for him. Just 180 degrees opposite of him. FRANK BORING: Do you have any comments about Greg Boyington? �ERIK SHILLING: Oh Greg I liked very much - when he was sober. He was a belligerent drunk and whenever he had a couple of drinks, at that point I would go to the other side of the room or separate myself, but I liked Greg very much. FRANK BORING: How would you evaluate him though as a pilot? ERIK SHILLING: He was in a different squadron so I really don't know Greg as a pilot, so it would be difficult for me to say - it wouldn't even be second hand because I don't recall anyone talking about Greg as a pilot. FRANK BORING: Why was he discharged - Greg Boyington or Pappy Boyington? ERIK SHILLING: In the AVG, which of course was known as the Flying Tigers, Greg Boyington - we called him Greg - later on when he was with a younger group, they started calling him Pappy, but we always referred to Boyington as Greg and I liked the guy very much although he was a belligerent drunk and every time he had about 2 or 3 drinks he would be wanting or willing to fight anybody in the crowd so I always - just before he got to that point - I'd leave. FRANK BORING: Can you tell us anything about his discharge or his leaving the unit? ERIK SHILLING: I think one of the things that probably caused Greg Boyington to leave was possibly he was somewhat like a maverick like Chennault and I believe that there was a personality clash between the two - this is my opinion, but it could be wrong - and I think that neither one wanted somebody else with such a strong personality and I really don't know the exact circumstances of when he left or what was the crowing blow of why Greg left. But he left I think in about April. FRANK BORING: Your encounter with Clare Boothe Luce? �ERIK SHILLING: I met Clare Booth Luce when I was in Cairo picking up one of the P-40's that I ferried back out to China and it was at the Shepherds? Hotel and she had taken some pictures there and we got to talking and I got to like her quite well. She was a very nice person I thought. When she came to China, it was right after I had made my ferry flight and the first time I saw her, I was in bed sleeping and she came and knocked on the door and said "I'm leaving tomorrow." I didn't have the vaguest idea who it was or anything else, but anyhow I told her to come in, then I found out who it was and the next day she took a bunch of pictures of all the guys and she gave me a complete copy of all the colored pictures she had taken and it developed into quite a nice friendship. I used to visit her all the time later on. - I would be getting into the future - that's why I stopped there. FRANK BORING: If you would let us know about the situation about the AVG toward the end of when you knew that your contracts were running out. There was the - July 4th was approaching. There was a certain amount of dissention in the ranks over morale missions that were being flown and then Bissell arrives and his effect on you. ERIK SHILLING: Toward the end of our contract, Chennault at that time was already in the military and Stillwell was then Commanding Officer and Stillwell was asking for certain missions to be run regardless of whether they were practical or not and on one particular mission that Stillwell wanted us to fly, was a morale booster for the Chinese troops and this mission was supposed to be flown at at least - not more than 1000 feet so the troops in the front lines could recognize the fact that we were friendly airplanes and not the Japanese. That meant that we would have no top cover because all the airplanes would be involved, we would have no warning and our only escape from the Japanese would be to dive away from a fighter, so we did not want to go on such a mission. Now if it were a strafing run to go down and strafe the Japanese in their trenches or wherever they were, there would have been no objection to it, �but to go down and fly - loiter over the front lines - we felt that we would be sitting ducks and I'm sure we would have been. We felt that he was willing to risk our necks to pull his chestnuts out of the fire and we weren't happy with that situation at all. So Chennault of course was under his command then and he had to order us to do what Stillwell wanted. But then, of course we weren't in the military so we didn't want to do it and finally it was resolved by a couple of the guys - quite a few of the guys volunteering for it - but it wasn't very successful and fortunately they weren't jumped. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 7 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling describes his first taste of battle and his impression of the Japanese pilots and airplanes they fought against. He also describes the loss of Lacy Mangleburg and his impression of General Chennault. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/63db44ada0258f43b7f8b18176721b35.mp4 f1c767cf4815c32d0090b19b9439d98c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fabaf85b4373b6922efb583599d936c8.pdf 2f0b6f56f359cd2b6751d172474e89f6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 8] ERIK SHILLING: In Cairo when the P-40's finally came up and I had been sent to Cairo to ferry one of the P-40's back, Tom Haywood and I came back together and when we got to Tel Aviv, the next day when we were going to a place called Habenea [?], which is the airport for Baghdad, it was drizzle and rain and low ceilings and of course the P-40 didn't have any radio for navigating or making instrument let downs, so we felt that we would have to stay again and at this time, a BOAC airplane was there and it was a converted bomber and one of the passengers on board this BOAC airplane, incidentally was the Queen of Iran, who happened to be the sister of King Farouk and she was at that time the Shah's wife, but she didn't produce any men, so he went through a couple more wives. But anyhow, we found out that they were going to the same place we were so we felt that if we could fly formation with them, they said okay that it was fine. The only trouble was when we were asking about speeds and so on, they were talking about true air speed and true air speed and indicated air speed can be a great difference. So when they were talking about true air speed we thought they were talking about indicated air speed. So everything was just fine so we took off ahead because we were more maneuverable and we circled around until they got off and when they got off, we got down into formation with them and of course you can fly formation on instruments if you're tucked in close enough. So we were doing real fine until we hit a torrential downpour of rain and we weren't ready for it and we were too far out so we split and I told Tom to �climb 500 and I would go down 500 and so we continued on the same heading and about 5 minutes later we came into a great big round open clearing, although there were clouds over us and clouds under us, but we then went back into formation and really tucked it in because we didn't want that to happen again. But as we were flying along we were real slow and when you're flying real slow in a P-40, your spark plugs start fouling up and the engine starts running rough and we were having engine problems at that time and a little bit later on we ran into beautiful clear weather. So we told him what our problem was so we left him and went up to cruising power, which then eventually cleared out the plugs. But we were only about 15 minutes after that, that we ran into a damn sand storm and in the sand storm it just goes from the ground up and it was like a knife - this sand was being kicked up by a real strong wind and like clear here and sand here - and we tried to get on top of it and we went up to 20,000 feet and were still in it and so what I decided to do then was sort of head to the north a little bit and hopefully we could eventually run out of the stuff or pick up the Euphrates River and follow the Euphrates down to Baghdad and then the Habenea? Airport was near Baghdad. Fortunately about 20 miles short of there, the sand storm stopped just like it had begun and we were able to get into our destination of Habenea [?]. FRANK BORING: Let's go back to the Salween Bridge and if you don't have so much to say in terms of your actual participation, could you give us an evaluation of how it fit in the AVG history, in terms of China's history and how important that was? ERIK SHILLING: I flew top cover on one of the Salween River strikes and it was the only place I think that the air has ever stopped a ground force. It was a very narrow - the Burma Road is extremely narrow and many places it's absolutely impossible to turn a truck around or anything and they were all the way down to the bridge and the bridge had been blown. So there were hundreds of trucks that were trapped there and flew top cover because the P-40's that I was �flying only had two 50's and four 30's and we couldn't carry bombs - it had no provision for bomb racks and the P-40E's had gotten out there and they had six 50's, much more devastating for ground strafing and they also could carry 250 pound bombs in the wing racks, so they were the ones that went down and did the strafing and caught - I don't know how many - hundreds of trucks in the convoy there and the Japanese were stopped at the Salween and actually turned around and started retreating at that point. They never progressed beyond the Salween River Gorge for the rest of the war. Really what that amounted to was if they had overrun Kunming, it was very likely that China would have succumbed to the war and China - the people in China - the soldiers and so on were occupying maybe almost a million Japanese soldiers and had they been successful in taking Kunming and then of course Chung King would have been next - nothing would have stopped them then - that would have relieved almost a million soldiers to then go out on these different islands and actually it could have been an entirely different ending to the war or much more devastating as far as loss of lives was concerned. FRANK BORING: At the end of that period of time you had gone through all these experiences, you had major difficulties in overcoming everything from weather to food to you'd worked hard, you'd watched friends of yours die, you had been at the forefront of the war, could you tell us your impression, your reaction to General Bissell coming in and giving you this lecture about your role in the war. Give us as much detail as you can about that meeting. ERIK SHILLING: Bissell came over and I often wonder really what his mission was and I honestly believe that he was attempting to dissuade us from joining because nobody in their right mind would have approached us and tried to induce us into joining the Army Air Corps at that time. He wasn't that dumb, so I think that first of all he never said that we had done a good job, never recognized the fact that we had done a job well done, didn't ask us to stay and help indoctrinate the new pilots, to help them learn what we had already learned and it �just - I cannot imagine any other reason for him to act the way he did. He said that when we went home we would be faced with the draft board and he would see that we went into the Army instead of being pilots and he would absolutely refuse to give us any transportation back, although our contract called for this. He was just so negative that no one - only five guys and that was at the personal plea of Chennault, stayed. Whereas I think that had Chennault made the bid for us to stay, I was prepared, I had already applied for a commission and Bissell changed my mind completely. He was so intensely disliked by many of the AVG guys that some of the ground personnel had taught the Chinese refuelers - and the Chinese refuelers thought that it meant Hi or Hello or something like this and what they taught them was "Piss on Bissell" so every time they refueled an airplane the crew and everybody, passengers coming of would be greeted with "Piss on Bissell" and I'm quite sure that sooner or later Bissell heard this. FRANK BORING: I would like to sum up at this point - I won't say evaluation but your personal feelings about Claire Chennault. ERIK SHILLING: I found that everything he said was true. In other words, his word was never in my opinion - never to be doubted. (break) ERIK SHILLING: (break) Claire Chennault to me - there's only one guy I loved better and that was my father. He never lied to any of us. He always stood behind his word and I just - it's difficult to even know - when you like somebody as well as I liked him and I think almost everyone with just a few exceptions, felt the same way about Chennault. He was really a wonderful person. His appearance was 180 degrees from what he was inside. He was really a soft-hearted, kind guy, yet his appearance was - he was rough, tough and a mean old bastard, but he wasn't. �ERIK SHILLING: Of course when we left, everyone that liked him went over and said goodbye to him, but I then had the opportunity to visit him quite frequently because with CNAC, flying the hump, I used to go over maybe once a month or - we were always welcome in his office regardless of what rank or what he was doing, he's never been too busy to see me. FRANK BORING: What do you feel you personally accomplished during that period of your life with the AVG? ERIK SHILLING: That's difficult because after I left the AVG and started flying the hump, I really felt that I had accomplished even much more there than I did flying for the AVG. Because I've made in round figures about 540 round trips on the hump. The military would send them home after 25 round trips, so all of Chennault's supplies and everything - every drop of gas, every bullet that was fired, every bomb practically that was dropped, had to be brought over the hump and I felt that by the longer I flew the hump, the better I was at it and whereas the military lost many more planes and pilots on the hump, than our small group did because of the familiarity with the hump. FRANK BORING: Let's look at it from a different perspective then - just looking back on your life where do you think the AVG fits into history, into American history, into Chinese history? ERIK SHILLING: I think the AVG fits into a very small area when the whole world was tumbling down around the Americans. We were devastated at Pearl Harbor, we had lost Singapore, we had lost Hong Kong, we had lost the Philippines and there wasn't a bright spot on the horizon anyplace except our small group of AVG and this - the way I see it - the American people realized that once given a chance - what the Americans could do. �FRANK BORING: One final question. How do you react to being called a Flying Tiger? ERIK SHILLING: At one time I didn't think too much of it, but the older I get I'm quite proud of that. I think that looking back on it, the more I see everything - it's difficult to say but I'm really proud of being a Flying Tiger, but it's not that I think I'm better than anything, I just had that opportunity presented itself to me and I was fortunate to take advantage of it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v08 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 8 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling discusses the importance of the events at Salween Bridge, in addition to the AVG's place in American and Chinese history and his reaction to being a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7745c137177f44e212c1ef6d3453e8c2.mp4 6412b530e74b213be76c6dfa15bc92d6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/85416032e0d3f03a5969c47b205cd617.pdf 42b97b5585fe0ddd8574a90353c49f14 PDF Text Text John Shipley (7:56) -Served in the United States Army and the National Guard from 1971-2006 -Fought in Viet Nam, the Cold War, and Panama (0:30) Life Before Enlistment • He had been a student at Grand Rapids Junior College • John is from Detroit, MI (1:20) Reasons for Joining the Army • The timing was right • Many friends were coming home “in boxes” so he did what he felt was right • His father was in the Army in World War Two with General Patton (1:49) First Days in the Service • He was sent to Fort Polk in Louisiana for training • They were “fun-filled” days • This is when he first started spending time with people from other parts of the country • He found out that there was more to the world than just Michigan (2:15) Service • He was in the US Army and the National Guard, 3rd Battalion, 6th Infantry • He was in the 46th Infantry Brigade, Engineer Brigade from the 38th Infantry Division • He is now retired from the service (2:40) Most Memorable Moments • John enjoyed watching people whom he had mentored get promoted • He liked to see people succeed (3:03) How the Military Changed His Life • The service gave him great insight as to why the world is the way that it is • He learned about the actions of nation-states • He was educated on many other aspects of the world • He made many friends in the service (4:00) Duties in the Service • John started out as a combat medic in Texas • He advanced to the Non-Commissioned Officer Corps • He retired as the Command Sergeant of the Engineer Brigade, 38th Infantry Division (4:20) Experience with Combat • He experienced some combat �(4:40) Spending of Time • Many jobs were assigned to him that were extremely challenging • They spent 24 hours a day being busy • There was barely any free time, but when there was he liked to play poker • Often he trained and mentored others (5:15) Basic Training • Started in 1971 and there are many things from that time that are now out of date, such as hand-to-hand combat • He learned survival skills, how to work well with others, to respect others opinions and how to work well in a team successfully • The drill sergeants were mean (6:15) Most Important Lessons Learned • Respect others opinions • Everyone has a right to their own opinion (7:00) Post Cold War • He worked for a Michigan telephone company as a manager • He retired from that job just near the same time that he retired from the National Guard � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShipleyJ Title A name given to the resource Shipley, John (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shipley, John Description An account of the resource John Shipley was in the U. S. Army and National Guard from 1971 through 2006. He served as a Command Sergeant Major during Viet Nam, the Cold War, and in Panama. While John did not talk much of his 35 years in the service, he did say that he learned a lot about how the world works and about the behavior of nation-states. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kerr, Kathryn (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78a192e9a7c04c81e934a4384be06346.m4v b37326276a5013519744345637e78ace https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/893a9af2bd5e712b55f9efff0c1b9605.pdf 22af97059090dd58c50626106d51bc18 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Eugene Shoemaker Length: 37:31 (00:25) Background Information     Eugene was born in Byron Center, Michigan in 1927, where he grew up and went to high school He had 4 sisters, his father drove trucks and mother worked in Grandville Eugene had been hoping the war would be over by the time he was drafted After high school he worked for about a year on his grandfather’s farm, but was not able to get deferment from the draft (2:50) Moving Around  Eugene was sent to Fort Sheridan in Illinois, but then shortly moved to Fort Montgomery in Alabama  They took a day long train ride and it was the first train he had ever been on  He was given a physical and took many written exams so that they could determine where they would be placing him  Eugene was in Alabama for only 1 week receiving shots and was then sent to New York, and then Massachusetts  He never went through any real training and was just being sent from one place to another (6:45) Iceland  Finally in November of 1945 Eugene took a plane to Iceland, which seemed like it was about to break down for the whole flight  They needed typists in Iceland and Eugene had learned how to type in high school  He first worked on files for enlisted men and then began on payroll  Eugene later worked in special services, running the camp newspaper for about 8 months  They were staying in Reykjavik, which was a refueling base for aircraft crossing to ocean to Europe and back  There were only 2 permanent aircraft on the base; a B-17 rescue plane and another that was used for training pilots  There were many ground personnel, engineers, and servicemen for the planes that were constantly stopping in (10:15) Working in Iceland  It was always between 20-50 degrees and for some reason crops grew very quickly there  Eugene stayed in the same place the whole time while in Iceland �    He helped print the history of the Army in Iceland while he was there and there was usually not much to report in the camp newsletter They had a Class-A pass, meaning Monday through Friday they had to work 8-4, and then once they were finished they were free to do as they please There was not much to do on the time off and only one bar in town that the Americans could go to because the civilians did not like them There were never any emergencies or high alert situations (16:50) Scenery  Eugene and others were able to take plane trips to fly over the North Pole in B-17s  They just crossed over the area, which was covered with ice and did not have much else to see  Trees would generally not grow in Iceland; many claimed the Vikings had cut them all down for lumber and they would just never grow back  There was much beautiful greenery and flowers, hot springs in the country, and only 1 road going through it all  All the towns ran off the hot springs, but their base used gasoline  They ate their own C-rations, not the local food (22:40) Leaving Iceland  Eugene was in Iceland through August of 1946; he was no longer needed once the war was over  There was also a British base near theirs, where the men went a little crazy when they heard the news of the war’s end and the Americans had to go over there to settle them down  Eugene was sent to Springfield, Massachusetts and then transferred to the 1386 Air Force Unit before he discharged soon after  He moved back to Michigan and began working at a factory for about 20 years and then got into construction  Being in the service was an experience that Eugene learned a lot from, but he would never do it again or recommend it to anyone else (28:30) Cigarettes and Paris  The men all received a certain amount of cigarettes each month, but Eugene did not smoke so he would trade his  At one point they had to take a plane to Paris to drop off cigarettes to the service men staying there  The men were all waiting for them when they arrived and they really wanted their cigarettes �  Eugene and a few others stayed in Paris for a week and were able to go sight seeing The French people were nice to them, but Eugene suspected they just wanted cigarettes � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShoemakerE Title A name given to the resource Shoemaker, Eugene (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shoemaker, Eugene Description An account of the resource Eugene Shoemaker was born in Byron Center, Michigan in 1927 and was drafted into the in 1945. He was sent to many different states and took many tests before they could decide what they would be doing with him. In November of 1945, Eugene was flown to Iceland, without having any training at all. He had learned how to type in high school and they needed typists at the base, which was used or refueling aircraft to and from Europe. Eugene worked in Iceland thought August of 1946 and learned a lot from his experience in the service, but would not recommend it to anyone. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Forces Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f696f97b19466e4cda6ce62e18c65b97.m4v 9515785b6fa6b87a4b3b91c19a245f87 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/483a513152532347f43a364c5e770afe.pdf b351ddf5ec2ffa84bb899c323d15da42 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Veteran: Roy Shoemaker Jr. Interviewer: James Smither Transcribed by Rebecca Doran Interview length: 47:28 [0.00] James Smither: We‟re talking today with Roy Shoemaker Jr. of Benton Harbor, MI. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Roy start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when you were born? Roy Shoemaker Jr.: I was born in Benton Harbor, MI. April 3, 1930. Supposedly one of the largest babies ever born in this county at this time. JS: Well, how tall did you end up being? RS: I ended up being 6‟ 5.5”. JS: Okay! RS: As of right now, 6‟ 5.5”. And went through the Benton Harbor school system. JS: What did your family do for a living when you were a kid? RS: My father worked on a WPA. At that time, we lived on 9th Street in Benton Harbor in the Flats Area. And I‟d like to clarify something on that: they always said that was an allblack area, but it wasn‟t. It was German. It was Polish. It was Black. It was Chinese. It was everything. The only thing we had in common, was that we, most of us, were all poor. JS: How long had your family been in Michigan? RS: All the time. My mother was from Kingston, Jamaica. The rest of the family lived in Michigan the whole time. JS: Because there was a black population here going back before the Civil War. RS: Well, yeah, right. My immediate family was from here. JS: Now, your father worked for the WPA, and that was sort of public works projects. Did he have any special skills? �RS: Yes, he did. He was a mason. If you see all these bricks in Benton Harbor on Colfax Avenue, he laid a majority. He was considered one of the best masons in this area at the time. That‟s what he did for a living. And later he continued his skills in Chicago and was very instrumental, and also working in the prisons to help people learn the skills so they could come out and be productive citizens. JS: What was life like here during World War II, because you were a kid then? RS: As a kid, it was really wonderful. As I say, I‟m strictly from Benton Harbor. We had…a majority of people didn‟t have a lot of money. We had respect for our neighbors. We used to all look out for each other. In the summertime, we‟d get on the truck and go out and pick berries as a family and make money. Whatever we could do as a family, we did, and proudly so. As I look back, I think, this was quite a thing, very important. And, we rented. I remember when the rent on 9th Street was $12.00 a month, and an increase of 50 cents would almost put you out on the street. We had outdoor plumbing, the outhouse was out in the yard. We had kerosene lamps. We had coal from Consumers Coal Company. These were the facilities that we lived in. The one thing we had was a lot of respect for each other and a lot of comradery among the people regardless of the ethnic background. JS: As things kind of ramped up during World War II, and the war got going, there was more industry. Were there more jobs then? RS: Yes. At that time, we had [unintelligible] we had auto specialties, we had Whirlpool, then known as 1900. We had numerous places for people to come. I remember the people from the Southern states migrated to this area because of the job market and it was skills they could take part in. And the community began to grow accordingly because of that. They turned out to be very excellent citizens of the community, and they‟re still here. I‟m one of the older ones right now. But we‟re still in existence and very proud of our backgrounds. JS: Did you finish high school? RS: Yes, I did. I went to Benton Harbor High School. I got out in May of 1948; I got out two months after my 18th birthday. JS: What did you do after you graduated? RS: After I graduated, I went over to work at the Witt Hotel. And then I tried to get into Whirlpool, and it was known as 1900 at the time. I kept going there, and manager kept saying, “We‟re not hiring,” but they were hiring. “We‟re not hiring,” but they were hiring. I had an uncle who was a podiatrist in Canada who had gone to school with one of the �gentlemen at Whirlpool. And he told me to go over there and tell them that your uncle and he said he‟ll see what he could do. So, I went over there, and they hired me at Whirlpool as a material handler. And it was really funny because this gentleman who kept telling me there was no job, he said his daughter just graduated and she‟s having a hard time... We‟re just poor people, and we respect…. But in any event, after 30 days, you go down to get your insurance. When I went down to get my insurance, this gentleman said, “Sorry. We still don‟t have a job.” I said, “Oh no. I‟ve come to get my insurance. I work here now.” And that‟s when I started at Whirlpool. Then I went into the machine shop: putting the cartons together and what have you. I stayed there for 9 ½ years. I was recommended for a promotion to a foreman position in the ___ area by two very fine gentlemen that I worked with. Apparently, there was a color factor involved. They said they just couldn‟t do it. And one of the gentlemen that was a real high official there said when one of his men could recommend someone, he didn‟t want any part of it. He wanted to have respect for these guys to this day. I didn‟t think in terms…because we never talked prejudices. We‟re just poor people and this was a gift in a sense. But a lot of fond memories. But I did work at Whirlpool for 9 ½ years, and then I went into the line, into the trial lines and so forth. I made good money. And then I went into welding. So, I did a number of things that enhanced my way of living. [6:59] JS: That‟s getting ahead of ourselves here in the story a bit, so we‟ll kind of go back. That‟s fine. It works. It‟s just my job to kind of put things in order. But basically, after high school…so were you working at Whirlpool before you went into the service? RS: That is correct. JS: Okay. And then how did you end up in the service? RS: Well, when I went, I wound up leaving here, and I went to Fort Custer, first. JS: But were you drafted or did you enlist? RS: I was drafted. JS: And when did you get the draft notice? RS: I got that in…let‟s see…it would be…about the latter part of… JS: 1950? RS: 1950, yeah. �JS: So, you get that but you don‟t have to report for training right away? RS: Right. They told me I was classified as I-A. JS: And of course, the Korean War, it started a couple of months earlier, so it‟s quite possible that Uncle Sam‟s gonna need you. So when do you actually report for duty? RS: Well, on March 3, actually, I received a letter that there was a contingent to meet at the local YMCA. 41 people, 41 of us. And I don‟t know why, but for some reason it said that you were going to be the group leader of that group. They never could explain that. And that consisted of several black fellows and white fellows. Most of us knew each other. You‟re going to get your meal tickets and what have you when you get to your destination. You give them to the gentleman and they take care of your needs before they dismiss you to other areas. I guess this was my first “goof” with the army. Because they gave me 41 meal tickets, and the bus driver pulled into Schuler‟s, and you know what Schuler‟s is. I‟d never been in a Schuler‟s…couldn‟t afford to go into places like that. And we pulled into a Schuler‟s Restaurant – the bus driver did – and he said maybe we should get some candy or something because some of these guys are feeling bad, they‟re going into the Army now. We went in, and Win Schuler came out and he said, “Hi! We‟re all ready for you.” I said, “I beg your pardon?” He said, “They‟re all ready for you.” I said, “Ready for what?” “Your meals are all set. They‟re all set up for you. 41 of you, right?” I said, “Yeah, there‟s 41.” We had the best meal we could ever want again. It was unbelievable! Didn‟t think anything of it because they told me to give them when we get to Detroit. And he said, “No, no, no. It‟s all set up!” Well I found I made a big mistake because when we got to Detroit – and this again is where I first noticed a difference – they took the white fellows to a hotel downtown called Kelly‟s, and they took us to a very prominent hotel – the Carlton Plaza Hotel in Detroit. And the manager said, “I‟d like the meal tickets.” I said, “I don‟t have any meal tickets.” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “We ate at a place called Schuler‟s. They told us they would….” He was livid. So, he said, “I‟m gonna call the, down to Eights Army headquarters down in Detroit.” And this gentleman came up to me – I‟m shaking in my boots – and he said, “I‟m going to deduct this from your pay!” I thought, this is going to take a long time to pay for the meals. He said, “I‟m going to deduct this from your pay.” And I said, “We told them….” He said, “That‟s all right.” So, they gave me more tickets. Because I guess I had covered both places. So, when we got to this Carlton Plaza, the food that we received was nothing like what we would have had at the other place. It wouldn‟t have made too much difference to us because we had dinner, we were satisfied. Then what happened right after that, the guys come up to me, they said: “Roy, we don‟t have any beds!” I said, “What do you mean you don‟t have any beds?” “There are no beds in here.” I said, “There‟s got to be beds in here!” Well, see, that shows you how little we knew. They had the beds that came down from the wall. So, there were a lot of things that were comical, yet very memorable because a lot of people were affected by it. �[11:42] JS: Now, you spend the night in Detroit. What did they do with you the next day? RS: Then the next day they started sending us out. And when they sent us, they sent a contingent of us to Fort Custer to Battle Creek to the reception center. We got there, and of course they checked us to make sure we didn‟t have any booze and all these different things. They put us in some of the Quonset Huts as groups, some in other places, but we don‟t know where, they dispersed them quite well. So, I went to Fort Hood, I mean, not Fort Hood, Camp Custer in Battle Creek. JS: And then that point, did you do your training there? Or just processing? RS: Just processing. And that was the thing, they put me in charge of contingent, trying to, like if they made a mistake, guys had to do…. And I said, hey, we don‟t need to do that… we can work out, we had a good group of people there. And then they started shipping people – sending some to Alaska, some to Germany. Finally, they told me they I was going to Fort Hood, Texas, to activate the 1st Armored Division. JS: But at this point, had you not actually had any Army Basic Training yet? RS: No. JS: They‟re not teaching you to march or anything? RS: No. I mean, you have to march, but that‟s about all. JS: But just to go eat? RS: Yeah. Because they were just trying to figure out where they were sending people. JS: So, how do they get you to Fort Hood? RS: They did that by train. We got on the train, and I had never been on a train before. And we started going through these various towns and I saw some of the things I had heard about but had never seen about the white, the black. It was quite a shock to my system. But these were things I had never been exposed to because I‟d been in the North so-called area where these things don‟t happen. But that‟s what it was when we got there. And we got to Fort Hood, Texas and that became a surprise too. JS: Okay, so what happens once you arrive there? �RS: Fort Hood, Texas was a segregated camp In fact, there it was not an integrated camp. All the blacks were put in the barracks in one place. Eddie Fisher was there at the time; he was in D Company, we became good friends. These are things that people don‟t…this was 1950. The whole camp was completely segregated. As I said, the term Segregation had never really entered my mind, but now, later, we learned that that happened. But they put us in the barracks, and Eddie Fisher was down…. We all went to the same dining room; we ate together. But when it came to living conditions, we went to an all-black group, and they went. I was in the 16th Armored Unit [Engineer Battalion], Bridge Company. Our job was to build these pontoon bridges and such so that trucks could roll across. Interesting. It was really an enjoyable experience. [14:38] JS: Do you start to get Army Basic Training now? RS: Yes. JS: What did that training consist of? RS: The infiltration course, the entire... all of that you had to go through. The marching. The different exercises: we had Operation Longhorn…. And we would go out, get up at five in the morning, and go for miles and do various things. And of course, us being a Bridge Company, we would go out with these big pontoons on Brockway trucks and rode „em and made bridges for any vehicle in the Army to go over. JS: Now sometimes with engineer units, they give people assignments in part because of their size. Did you certain jobs because you were so tall? RS: Not there. Not there. Because I enjoyed it, and this was quite a thing. What we were doing, it was a good an experience. It was amazing to think that you could do this, and accommodate some of the materials that we had at our service. And we did this in complete darkness. We‟d be out there going across some place. And one guy‟d have these big pins to put into the pontoon to hold the pontoon so they‟d come through. And at that time, they did apparently have it in mind, because they sent me to an NCO Academy. [shows pictures to interviewer off screen] So they sent me to an NCO Academy, and then told me they were considering to make me a cadre because of my ability to get along with people. JS: And explain for people who don‟t know, if you‟re in a cadre, what does that mean? RS: Cadre means you work with the troops. You march them. You do the various details that they need to become familiar with. JS: So you‟re part of the unit‟s staff, the regular staff for training the other guys? �RS: Right! President Eisenhower issues a statement saying that all enlisted men will serve overseas. That‟s how I got overseas. JS: You were talking about how the barracks on the base were segregated, but the units themselves were integrated? RS: That‟s right. JS: So, you had white and black guys working together in the companies. RS: Well, yes. Normally that would be the case. It wasn‟t that the soldiers themselves couldn‟t understand it, because there were a lot of people from the North who hadn‟t been experienced with this type of thing,, and they said “What do you mean, this thing with black…”. But it was something that was very noticeable to others because they‟d always associated with other people. And we had this Operation Longhorn, and this was where the problem was solved. And a lady by the name of Anna Rosenburg, who was assistant secretary of defense to President Eisenhower came down to Operation Longhorn, and she saw the blacks in one stairway, took all the people who were so called misfits, part upstairs and part down, and she wanted to know what was going on. And they told her. And she said, I‟m going back and every camp would be be integrated, and they did. Now a lot of people don‟t know this, but I have a young lady who goes to our church and I told her she made a review, she found out Anna Rosenburg, and I‟ve never heard from her again. So, she said this shouldn‟t exist.But we‟d‟a had no problems… [18:30] JS: So, when you first started the company you were assigned to, was that all black except for the officers? RS: No, we had black officers. All black. A black officer: Captain Prior. He was fantastic. All the officers were black. And, of course, when we‟d go from parade, march and review, we were good, we had a sharp group because we‟d go hard. We were good and we knew it. And we were always complimented very well for that. JS: And then the drill sergeants and trainers, were they a mix of people? RS: No. In this case, they were all black also. Later, of course, we did have white officers, and they were really quite friendly to talk with, but as far as living together, it didn‟t happen. �JS: Did stuff change while you were at Fort Hood? Did they start to integrate the units after Ms. Rosenburg visited? RS: It did. But I was sent overseas before…. We didn‟t think much of it because we‟d always go back and talk to our friends; we‟d go to the cafeteria, white and….and later I guess it did change. JS: When do you find out you‟re going to go overseas? RS: Well, I have to get the exact month, but when they called in, they called in different groups, they said to one you‟re going to Hawaii. I‟m going to Germany. Another one said, “I‟m going to Alaska,” just like they were at the reception center. I got a thing that says you‟re going to Operation Evil. I beg your pardon? Err, you‟re going to California, Camp Stoneman. I got down there, I got assigned to my seat and it says on my bag: Operation Evil. And I figured there‟s only one place where that could be, and that was Korea. JS: Operation? RS: EVIL. That‟s just what they put on the tag. So, I figured that has to be pretty plain. JS: So, basically this would have been the middle of 1952 by this time? RS: Right. JS: Before we go on with the story, to back up a little, while you were at Fort Hood, did you go off base at all? RS: Oh yes. In fact, I used to, there was…Sinbad‟s father, you‟ve heard of Sinbad, his father, we all grew up together, Sinbad and I, some of us used to view for colonel‟s orderly, we‟d look sharp so we‟d get a three-day pass. We‟d go to Waco, Texas. We‟d go to Temple. We‟d go to a number of places even though they were segregated. As a matter of fact, I had to ride in the back of a bus with my uniform on. This was something I‟d never done on any bus. But I had to ride on the back of a bus with my uniform on, yes. [21:50] JS: Were there sometimes problems when people left the base? Would they get in trouble for going to the wrong place or would they behave themselves? RS: No, most of them did. I and Sinbad and some others went to this went to this college that was all black. Louis Armstrong was going to be at this big club in Austin, �Texas. It had all races there. We went to the dean to ask if they could let us bring some of the young ladies with us to go to the base. And they did. They said, “No drinking,” because you know how that goes. So, we all went to the Louis Armstrong down in Austin, Texas, and of course it had all races in there. And we went to the dean and asked if we could bring some of the young ladies with us to go to the place, and they said yes, but no drinking in there, and of course you know how that goes. So we all went to the Louis Armstrong down in Austin Texas in the big building that they have there. The whites went throughout, everybody was having a good time. And when we went back down to sit, we went over there, you went over here. Afterwards, there was a place called The Black Cat, which was a restaurant. We all, a lot of us from our group went there, and some whites came in and people said they couldn‟t stay. The police came and took them out. They said, “What do you mean?” They said, “You can‟t stay here. This is for blacks.” I said, “Well hey, I‟m from the North.” They said, “I don‟t care where you‟re from.” So that was the only thing. Other than that, I didn‟t see a whole lot of trouble. JS: To move back in the story, it‟s 1952. You get your orders overseas. You go to Camp Stoneman. Is that another train ride? RS: Yes, that was another train ride. JS: And once you got to Camp Stoneman, what happens? RS: At Camp Stoneman, that‟s when we went out via boat to Pusan. JS: What kind of ship were you on? RS: I have a picture. The U.S. Weigu. JS: Was that like a World War II vintage transport, probably? RS: I would imagine so. JS: It was probably a Victory Ship or something like that. About how many people do you think were on the ship? RS: Oh boy. It was loaded. It was really loaded. Lots of my old friends that came in from different areas, some I‟d seen in different places before that. Several of them from Benton Harbor. There must have been 20 from Benton Harbor. [24:26] JS: So, what was that sea voyage like? �RS: Well, I never got sick. But there were times when I thought the ship was just going to touch the bottom. I‟d sit there and look at it. We pulled a couple of bad tricks on…. There was a young Mexican guy who just couldn‟t stand. So, the guys would wait to get his food. And they‟d (gestures to indicate vomiting)… It was kind of rough, and coming back was even more, because we had really bad weather coming back. JS: About how long did it take to get to Korea? RS: Oh boy. I…I don‟t know. JS: Two weeks? RS: No, no. Not from Camp Stoneman. Probably six days. JS: Did you stop anywhere along the way? RS: No. JS: So, you get to Pusan. Now what does that look like and what happens? RS: Well, we got to Pusan and they began to divide the people up. And they told me, again, we‟re going to take a train and go to a place called Taegu. They said no guns will be issued at this time…well, they‟re here, and ammunition. If we get attacked, not just some tracers going through the air…. Any time the train stops, if there‟s some problems, they‟ll issue them. Then they said we have to take four or five fellows who have to get out and stand when the train stops. Why they pick on me again, I‟ll never know. Because this area I wasn‟t too keen on. So, I got out, and it stopped. We didn‟t have any real problems…it was raining, really raining, it was going crazy. So, the train took us into Taegu, and they took us to this camp. They had tents…they had barracks later, but they had leather tents that they put us in. We got into our training after that. We walked hard and went through various training facilities. JS: What unit were you assigned to? RS: This is something else. As far as I knew at that time, I was still part of Bridge Company. They called me and told me they were sending me to Seoul. And myself and a chaplain got on this big truck. We were both sitting there like this… (gestures with hands) This truck took us into Seoul. The Eighth Army headquarters there had been bombed – you could see that a lot had taken place there, but they had different areas. They took me up to this room, and later, I got a call from downstairs. They said, “Shoemaker, I understand you took business administration at a local college.” I said, “Yeah.” They said, “Do you type?” I said, “Well, just with two fingers. I‟m not really a typist to that extent.” “Well, come downstairs.” So, I went downstairs and gave me �something to type. I had to go pretty fast. He said, “Okay. You‟re going back to Taegu as Company B Cl… no, you‟re going as S-4.” So, I said, “S-4?” But then, when I got back to Taegu, I found out that I had the best time in the service than the fellow I was supposed to replace. So, they said, “You‟re the Clerk of Company B.” So, there‟s where they made the change. After all this training that I had in Bridge Company, I suddenly became the Cleric of Company B. That‟s where I spent my time. And then they made me Corporal, and they wanted to go higher but the T and E strength [?] was so high, with all the guys coming back, they just couldn‟t do it. [28:41] JS: So, it‟s Company B of what Battalion? RS: Of the 44th Construction Engineer. JS: Probably part of the 44th Division at that point? RS: Right. JS: Basically, what does that job consist of? RS: Well, it‟s doing the records. Typing, mostly for the commanding officer. Typing up the recommendations for promotions. Some information of course had to be kept between the officers and ourselves. Basically, everything a clerk would ever do as far as typing. And I got pretty good at that. JS: And so, who were you reporting to? RS: I was reporting to a Lieutenant. I can‟t remember his name, but I should. He was from Alabama. This was all integrated, there was no problem with that – I didn‟t have any problem with that. But he was a super guy. And I had Colonel Reischnider, who was the colonel of the operation, and he was a super man too. I can remember them very well. JS: Describe a little bit the base at Taegu where you were living. RS: It was very hilly, as Korea would be. Lots of snow. And of course, you see people running around with their loads on their back and what have you. In fact, right behind us was a school and they had hundreds of kids all in blue uniforms. These are Korean people. They had a lot of indigenous personnel working at the camp also. But we would watch them. But basically, it was to be ready in case something occurred. We would go in, as I said, the truce wasn‟t final yet… cause they said this was just a police action. �JS: Now was the Battalion itself, the Engineering Battalion, were they building roads or bridges? RS: Oh yeah! They would build roads…that‟s what they were known for. That‟s why they were called the Broken Arm. They did a lot in that regard. And mine, of course, with my assignment, I didn‟t get a chance to get into that. I just wrote memos on it. [31:06] JS: And you said you had Koreans working on the base. What kinds of things would they do? RS: Well, they would clean. We let them do any number of things. Even guarding. But sometimes the Korean guards got a little trigger-happy. There was WHOA-OH, and guys would come running because they hear a shot. Thank God I didn‟t have to, but I almost shot a fellow one night because I was on guard-duty, and I was standing guard, and this guy comes up,, “Ohyiyi…” (clutches stomach) Found out he had an appendix attack. I think of them as people. They‟re people just like anyone else. A majority of people probably didn‟t want to be there, but by the same token, you didn‟t know. And of course, our job was to be there and protect our country. That‟s what I was there to do. And if it had come to that, I would have done it without any question. JS: A lot of people who were there in Korea at that time comment about the poverty in the countryside…. RS: A lot of poverty. And not only that, I was a little perturbed about some of our own servicemen, in a sense, mistreating people. We‟d see someone – a lady – come walking, and they‟d give them a shove. I didn‟t buy that. They‟re human just like anyone else. This is only a few, but there were people that did take that approach, because they were away from home and what have you. But I always thought, give respect, demand respect, but do what you have to do as part of the service. Do it. If you have to do it, you do it! JS: Was there prostitution around, or that kind of thing? RS: Oh yes. That was always around, the prostitution. I remember, there was one young lady that I had a talk with. And it was really funny, she said, “Sergeant say you chocolate soldier!” [Laughs]. “Sergeant say you chocolate soldier!” We had never thought in terms of prejudice stuff. It was kind of a shock to my system. I thought, a chocolate soldier? You know, what difference does that make? I‟m a soldier, and that‟s what I said. “I‟m a soldier. An American soldier. Not a chocolate soldier. You go back and tell „Sargy‟ I said that.” But see that was somebody that they didn‟t want you to associate with. �JS: Was there a black market going on? RS: That I don‟t know. I don‟t think. JS: So, you weren‟t keeping track of supplies or things like that? RS: No. JS: Okay, because that could be an issue. And you talked about having Korean guards. Would those have been Korean soldiers? [34:03] RS: They were Korean soldiers, yes. They were indigenous personnel. They would be around. They were good; they were glad to have the Americans around to protect them. But once in a while you heard a gunshot and they‟d say they thought maybe someone was trying to come into base or something but it didn‟t create as much of a problem as it could have. JS: Did you spend pretty much all your time on the base, or did you get to travel around at all? RS: I did travel. In fact, I went to the..I drove a Jeep to a couple of areas to pick up supplies from a plane where a bunch of American soldiers had been waiting to be waiting to be rotated back to the hospital. Some in bags that had died, and what have you. And that was such an inspiring thing to see, the attitude that these people were displaying. When you walked in, you really felt that anything you could do, you‟re going to do. Because, hey, they smoked their cigarettes and they‟re just glad that they‟re exempt and so forth. They‟re just waiting to go back to the states to the various hospitals. I drove a lieutenant there to pick up supplies and stuff. That was the big shock when I saw some of that stuff because up to then I hadn‟t seen much. JS: So, Taegu was far enough behind the front lines at that point that you weren‟t being hit by artillery or anything like that? RS: No, no. Seoul would have had… they did have it in different areas, but we didn‟t have too much going on. They always anticipated that things could occur. JS: About how long did you wind up spending in Korea? RS: About seven, eight months. �JS: Okay, so you leave in February of ‟53. So, you‟re only there seven months, when normally an overseas tour lasts a year, so why did you go home earlier? [36:05] RS: Well, that was just it. We were going to rotate back to the States. But the thing is, I was approached, along with other fellows, and wanted to know if we wanted to give three more years and become Second Lieutenant. Well, that was very tempting because, very honestly, I enjoyed the service. I really felt comfortable. But I wrote my mother, and I got a telegram, “Get out now!” (laughs) So that did it. But they told us, they‟d like to keep us because apparently, we were doing things that they appreciated having, and they felt that we were really sincere in our efforts. But after that, I probably would have been there because I really enjoyed what I was doing, although I couldn‟t understand going from one thing to the other thing, being transferred from Bridge Company to a Clerk. JS: When you think about the time you spent in Korea, are there other memories or impressions or things that happened that you haven‟t brought into the story yet? RS: No. Well, Eddie. Eddie Fisher and I – this is something back at Fort Hood when we were there – we both did what we called “Music Orientation.” We‟d get up and do these crazy chants as far as marching and what have you. And at that time, of course, he was very popular with Elizabeth Taylor and all this stuff. He was special in the service because he went around to all these camps. He was a nice guy, a down-to-earth guy. But we did go out in the Operation Longhorn, and that was really something. And later we had this amateur hour, and he and I had different people in there. I never had a chance to see him after that. I always wanted to see him. JS: When it‟s time for you to leave Korea, did the whole unit leave together or did you go by yourself? RS: No. This is really something that amazed me. There was a little Korean kid by the name of Mickey. We called him a “House-boy.” Very nice kid. He knew I was going to be rotated back to the states before I did. And he comes and he said “Shoemakey, you go back to states tomorrow.” I said “No bullshit me, no, I don‟t know…” but he said “No, you go back to states tomorrow.” “No, Mickey, I don‟t think so.” Because I didn‟t know. They didn‟t tell me. There was no… They called me that night and said, “You‟re going back to the states.” I got it on a shelf here, a little thing that he gave me, I‟ll never forget. I‟ll show it to you. It looks like a little priest and someone else. He said, “You the most Papa-san,” which was really something, that kind of respect that he showed to me. But he said…he was there, he was crying. He said, “I tell you no bullshitting.” “ Are you bullshitting me?” I didn‟t know, very honestly. But they came, at midnight, and took us to a train to go back. It was very funny, because when I came back, I was offered the �opportunity to stay and process, with the clerk thing. If I would stay and help process, they would fly me back after that. But if I chose to leave, then I had to go by boat. Well, at this stage, I thought, you never know what the jig is. Oh, I‟ll go back. So, we come back by boat. When I got to Camp Stoneman – back there again – here‟s seven or eight of the guys who stayed. They‟re already there, having a ball, and here I am after seventeen days in a boat, because we hit a big storm. [40:00] JS: Did you get sick on the way back? RS: No, I didn‟t. I really didn‟t, and it was really funny. I just got to hold myself…. I told my wife, I don‟t understand it, even now. It‟s only happened once in my life, and that just happened here on Lake Michigan about five years ago. I mean, I‟ve been out in this stuff and didn‟t get sick. But you just kind of roll with it. There was one thing that happened to us coming back. A bunch of the guys didn‟t want to do KP in the barracks. So this buddy of mine, George [Unintelligible], now deceased, come up to me and a couple of other guys and says “Will you come work with me . We said, “We‟ll come down there.” What a deal! They gave us steak. They gave us chicken. They gave us everything. We didn‟t want to leavel. They put the other guys on a, on the boat. Other than that, hey, I‟ll stay here all day. You can keep me on KP all the time. They took us back. We went to our bunks. [Unintelligible]. JS: Now, when you get back to the states, is your enlistment basically up at that point? RS: When I got back to the states, this is really funny. They flew me from California back to Fort Custer. This plane was loaded with all these guys and they had one lady who was a stewardess and we‟re going on this puddle jumper, and it looked like, we‟re going to Needles, Arizona, and my ears are going like this. She kept telling me to hold it and blow to open up my ears. And we landed in Fort Custer. I left from Fort Custer and ended at Fort Custer. JS: So, you get discharged from there? RS: Yes. JS: Did you go back home from there? RS: Yeah, I came back home. And then I decided I wanted to go to school because I got the G.I. Bill. I went back to Lake Michigan College because I had spent some time there. I went back there and tried to get an education to better myself. And I got into that. Then I went back to Whirlpool because they allowed me to have those two years and then they gave me my job back, so I was there for nine years. And after going to �college, I graduated, cause I didn‟t go back right away, in 1955, „56, I‟m sorry, from Lake Michigan College. I was the president of my class. And a lot of things took place. And then I went to Heath Company – I don‟t know if you‟ve heard of Heath Company. I went to Heath Company. They contacted me and said “We‟d like to talk to you.” I thought they made candy bars because they were down here in Benton Harbor at the time. I went down and they interviewed me. And they said they‟d like to hire me. And they said, “We‟d like to hire you.” I said, “Well, how far can you go?” They said, “As far as you want as long as you do it the right way.” I said, “Fantastic.” So, I worked with them. And I stayed with them for 34 years. I was a credit service manager for Heath Company. They were very good to me. Of course, at the meantime, my wife and I, we‟ve been married 63 years last Saturday. I‟d known her as a young girl. I‟m five years older than she is, and never thought about that at the time. But there were eight of these Korean Vets at Lake Michigan College, and each of us used to take these young ladies out for coffee. We married the girls we took out. So that‟s how I ended with with Whirlpoo, with Heath Company, and I was service manager there. Then I also received the Assistant of the Year award in Benton Harbor, and was United Fund Campaign Chairman for 1970. There was a lot of history, that I did with the Red Cross, and of course with the Lions. I was also with the Benton Harbor Lions for many years and received many awards. [44:56] = [38:46] JS: Now, to think back to the time you spent in the service, how do you think that affected you or what did you take out of it? RS: Well, I think it was a great experience. Living in a small town, you really didn‟t know about what was going on in other areas of the country. I learned to respect all people regardless of circumstances, not take anything for granted, be aware that you are an American citizen and you should plan to do what is expected of an American citizen. It‟s always been that way. And yet, you really have to take a good look at what‟s going on and say, “Hey. Is this really necessary?” It really breaks my heart to see some of the stuff that‟s occurring again that supposedly was gone. But as an American citizen, I‟m going to do what I have to do to always maintain that attitude. And I respect the flag highly. That‟s my flag. And I‟m going to do anything to show my allegiance to it. JS: Well, the whole thing makes for a good story. So, thank you for taking the time to share it with me. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ShoemakerR2200V Title A name given to the resource Shoemaker, Roy (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-18 Description An account of the resource Roy Shoemaker Jr. was born in Benton Harbor, Michigan in 1930. He grew up there, finished high school in 1949 and got a job at the Whirlpool factory, and was drafted into the army soon afterward, in late 1950. He trained at Fort Hood, Texas, and was assigned to the 16th Armored Engineer Battalion of the 1st Infantry Division, and trained with their Bridge Company. Mr. Shoemaker was close to his family growing up, and had a lot of respect for his community despite multiple nationalities and low-incomes. Not long after starting at Whirlpool in 1950, Mr. Shoemaker received a draft notice. He was processed at Fort Custer and then was transported to Fort Hood, Texas via train. At Fort Hood, Mr. Shoemaker received basic training and was assigned to the 16th Arms Unit, Bridge Company. He stayed with that unit over a year, during which time he met the singer Eddie Fisher and did musical acts with him on the base. In 1952, he received orders for Korea and was assigned to B Company of the 44th Construction Engineer Battalion, where he wound up as the company clerk because he could type. He spent seven months with this unit at Taegu, some distance back from the front lines. He saw no combat, but did get to see something of the country and meet the people. One notable dimension of this interviewer is that he offers commentary on the process of racial integration in the military. As an African American from the North, he had seen little by way of discrimination before going to Texas to train, and offers keen observations on different aspects of racial discrimination in both North and South, and of the Army's efforts to desegregate Fort Hood, which was in process while he was there. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shoemaker, Roy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d3a0d3a951432d28b1c7f477c058ac3.mp4 642fa39d1d67d73cb01615686627e6c6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd4cd2ec3fbca93b3bec8654ffa6563c.pdf 9995060ac045364de17fe9893c946f47 PDF Text Text Interview Notes Interview Length (16:00) Jay Shook World War II Veteran Korean War Veteran US Navy Pre-Enlistment Lived in Caledonia when he signed up for the Navy (0:35) Signed up for travel and adventure (0:47) Training Was trained at Great Lakes, Illinois (0:55) Was there for 8 weeks (1:00) Very physical training (1:15) Took a train to Detroit, Michigan for his physical, then went to Great Lakes (1:50) Enlistment World War II During WWII, went to Camp Shoemaker in San Francisco, California (2:00) Went to Hawaii aboard the USS General George Squire, a troop transport (2:20) Was assigned to a destroyer, the USS Bailey where he stayed for the next few years (2:40) Had a great experience in Hawaii (2:50) Main duties on the Bailey was to escort LST’s and LSI’s to various islands throughout the Pacific (4:00) First campaign action was at the island of Saipan (4:30) October 1st, 1944, campaign was just finishing up at Palau, but the destroyer received two strafing attacks and put it out of commission (5:15) Was sent alone to be repaired (5:40) Wasn’t able to be repaired in the Pacific, was sent back to the States (6:15) Saw action in the Philippine campaign (6:20) Kept in touch mostly by letter with his family (6:50) Traveled throughout the Pacific Theatre, also went to Florida Island, down by New Zealand (8:00) Service in WWII ended when the ship was decommissioned in May of 1946 (10:00) Still in the Naval Reserve after he was out of the Navy (12:50) Korean Conflict In the summer of 1950, he was called back up to serve in the Navy (13:15) Had 10 days to get things back in order and back to Great Lakes (13:30) Picked up a new ship, USS Bryce Canyon, in Charleston, South Carolina (13:40) Job was to service other ships with food, water, maintenance (14:20) Landed initially Yokosuka, Japan, and went around to other naval bases in Japan every few months (14:45) Took crews into the war zone, primarily so officers could collect combat pay (15:00) �Never saw action in Korea (15:30) Was discharged in 1951 in San Diego, CA (15:50) Post-Enlistment Doesn’t remember going home and going right back to work (10:30) Made many close friends in the service that have lasted through the years (10:45) After WWII, was a fireman for the Grand Rapids School system (11:30) WWII had a profound influence on his life (12:30) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShookJ0754V Title A name given to the resource Shook, Jay (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shook, Jay Description An account of the resource Jay Shook served in the US Navy in World War II and the Korean War. He served in the Pacific Theater in World War II on the USS Bailey, a destroyer, and escorted LSI's and LSG's in to landing zones. During the Korean War, Jay served on the USS Bryce Canyon, a Destroyer class maintenance ship. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leatherman, Sara (Interviewer) Mulder, Leslie (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-06-04 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ba89cfc927e07432ad4af3190d6fe388.m4v 5b5e569a34c9178a316503bf26d44cb7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f3536f4a5d2de3b120f4bfd44064253.pdf 5886758f57f520146a1f4e340756df8c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam Interviewee: Philip Shook Length of Interview: 00:24:51 Background:      He was born in Caledonia, Michigan. Before he joined the service, he worked in a factory. He father served in WWII and his brother would serve at the same time as he would, though he would not go overseas. He was drafted into the service. He would go to Detroit for his first physical. He would leave March 1964. He did not like it, but he was not getting out of it, so he left. Training: (1:30)        He would then be sent to Fort Knox for basic training. The training itself was nothing he could not handle, but he did not like it. There was a lot of harassment. Basic training would last 8 weeks. After basic training, he was sent to Fort Riley, Kansas for AIT training. He was then put into a mechanized infantry unit. He would train daily. He had to learn to live with a lot of different guys. The food was not too bad compared to the rations he got when he was overseas. He left for Vietnam 1965. He took a troop ship over to Vietnam. The trip would take 21 days. When he got his orders to go to the South Pacific, he would load up trains to take them to California. Active Duty: (5:45)       His ship would land in Vung Tau. From there he would be taken to Bien Hoa. While he was there, he and the others would do more physical training while waiting for their orders. When they got their orders they would go to a place called Phuoc Vinh, where they would build their base camp. When he first landed, he found it interesting because it was different from what he was used to. The children were always there waving and they would take candy, cigarettes, and whatever else you would throw at them. It was hot and rainy there. When they were in their staging area, they were keeping everything ready for when they had to go to their base camp. �           When they got to their base camp, they had to set a perimeter. They would have to secure an area for them and three or four other companies who would be there with them. During the night, they would send out ambushing stakeouts. They would also set up mine fields, put up sand bags, put up tents, etc. They did whatever they needed to do to set up camp. He did have to go out on the ambush stakeouts. It was not pleasant. You were there for the night, through rain and anything else. When he would run search and destroy missions, then he would run into some snipers and he and the others would get into a firefight. During his missions he would carry a belt with ammo, a pack with basic supplies, such as steel pot. Sometimes he would carry a radio. It was about 60 pounds that he would carry. He would make friends with a lot of the guys that he served with there and would still keep in touch with a few of them today. He had some interactions with the natives, but not a whole lot. You did not get out and visit the locals very much. (11:00) He would fly out in helicopters and do search and destroy missions. If they came up against any resistance, they would call in an airstrike. He saw a few of those while he was out on a mission. They would also have artillery support, which would sometimes come in pretty close to where they were. He would communicate with his family back home via letters. He did not write as often as he would have liked to, but it was hard to write when you were out in the jungle when everything was wet. When he was of duty, they would drink beer and watch movies. There was a lot of exercising, but not a lot of time off. He spent 6 months in the service and then his time was up. Post Duty: (13:40)         After came back home, he went back to work at the factory for a while. Then he eventually made his was to Steelcase where he worked until he retired. He was pulled out in 1965 and the war was not over until 1975. So he was out for 10 years before the war was actually over. The night before he was supposed to leave, he was on guard duty. They were mortared and everyone hit the ditch. Luckily, no one was hurt. When he got home, he experienced some anti-war protests. It did not really bother him so much and most of his buddies around the area were not like that. The high school band played for him when he got home. That wasn’t the norm. While he was in the military, he learned how to get along with all different kinds of people and you learned that you could not get much done yourself. It took teamwork. There were not a lot of problems when it came to discrimination among the races. He is now part of the American Legion in Caledonia, the VFW of Grand Rapids and the 28th Infantry Association. It was very easy adjusting to life back home. �     Richard shows some of his paperwork from the Army. There are also pictures from basic training, unit picture, pictures from after the Army. (17:00) He also shows a map and where he was. He also shows his medals and dogtags. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShookP Title A name given to the resource Shook, Philip (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shook, Philip Description An account of the resource Philip Shook was drafted into the Army in 1964. He spent six months in Vietnam in a small base camp at Phuoc Vinh north of Saigon. His main duty as a soldier was to go out on search and destroy missions on helicopters. He was responsible for calling in airstrikes and artillery fire. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Coolman, Craig (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/599c0939b68133cac6f245c0a5f3bae4.m4v 627706bc324aa9c0e5fd6a09a3ac9236 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/17c33886719e28085c5bb3a7c5410f58.pdf b4b08f534582e8842046037cda93168d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Bob Short Vietnam War 1 hour 11 minutes 15 seconds (00:00:40) Early Life -Born in July 1949 in Vandalia, Illinois -Grew up in Mulberry Grove, Illinois -About ten miles west from Vandalia -Small, rural community of 750 people at the time -Father was a truck driver, so he was gone frequently -Mother was a housewife -Graduated from high school in 1967 -Had always intended to serve in the military -Inspired by his father who was a World War Two veteran -Grew up believing that it was an honorable thing to do (00:01:42) Applying for West Point -He was granted a congressional appointment to get into West Point -West Point is the prestigious Army academy in New York -A month after graduating from high school he was a cadet at West Point -All he had to do was follow the application process to get in -Contacted his local congressman -Got high school teachers and administrators to be his references (00:02:40) Awareness of the Vietnam War -He was aware of the Vietnam War -He felt that he was naïve about the reality of war -Grew up seeing the glorified portrayal of war in WWII movies -Curious about how he would perform in combat -News on the war in 1966 and 1967 was fairly objective and mostly positive -Once he went to West Point he didn’t have access to much news -No access to television and little access to newspapers (00:03:39) Attending West Point -He arrived at West Point in July 1967 -First two months there were referred to as “Beast Barracks” -Constant physical training -Constant verbal harassment -Intense memorization of irrelevant data that you were tested on -Example: memorize the menu for a certain day and then tell a trainer -Essentially it was Army basic training, but intensified -He expected it though -Academic year started in the fall of 1967 -Completed three academic semesters there -Fall 1967, Winter 1968 and Fall 1968 -Spent some time training at Fort Knox �-Learned how to drive armored personnel carriers and tanks -Learned how to operate their weapons systems -Received artillery training while at West Point -Actually went to the artillery range and fired guns -At West Point he also received land navigation training -He went to school six days a week -Monday – Friday: full days -Saturday: Half day with marching in the afternoon -He carried twenty credit hours at West Point -Got through the first year (also known as “Plebe Year”) well (00:05:43) Leaving West Point -At the end of his first year he was given a month of leave -Mother died while he was on leave -Finally succumbed to the cancer that she had been fighting -He returned to West Point and began to lose focus -Didn’t feel like he was learning relevant information -This led to him feeling unfulfilled -He began to consider the fact that he didn’t want to make a long term military commitment -After graduating from West Point you had to serve for five years -After the fall semester of 1968 he decided to leave West Point -In February 1969 he officially left West Point (00:07:15) Volunteering for the Draft -After leaving West Point he decided that he wanted to go to a civilian college -Didn’t have enough money at the time -Decided that the GI Bill was the best way to have college paid for -He went to his local draft board and told them that he was ready to be drafted -Shortly after volunteering for the draft he was sent to St. Louis -Got sworn in at the induction center there (00:07:52) Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri -After being sworn in at St. Louis he was sent to Fort Leonard Wood for basic training -At Fort Leonard Wood he ran into an old high school friend who worked in processing -Friend found out that he had spent a year and a half at West Point -This led to Bob not having to complete basic training or advanced infantry training -As a result he received no formal preparation prior to going to Vietnam -He feels that the training he received at West Point was substantial enough though (00:09:42) Deployment to and Arrival in Vietnam -He went on leave and after leave was deployed to Vietnam -He was first flown to the replacement depot in Oakland, California -From Oakland he boarded a chartered flight and flew to Vietnam -En route stopped at Hawaii and Guam to be refueled -Landed at Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Vietnam -First impression of Vietnam was that it was hot -Felt anxious upon leaving the plane -He was sent to the replacement center at Long Binh -Stayed there for a few days waiting for his assignment to a unit -At Long Binh he met and befriended a soldier �-They were both assigned to guard the paymaster building (similar to bank) -Given an M14 rifle and a clip of ammunition -Felt like the Old West -After that he was assigned to the same company, but different platoon, as his new friend -Within four or five weeks that friend was killed in action -He arrived in Vietnam on May 26, 1969 (00:11:16) Unit Assignment and Going to Chu Lai -He was assigned to Charlie Company of the 1st Battalion of the 46th Infantry -Originally part of the 198th Light Infantry Brigade -Component of the Americal Division (23rd Infantry Division) -In July they were reshuffled into the 196th Light Infantry Brigade -His unit was operating out of Quang Nam Province in South Vietnam -Part of I Corps (there were 4 “corps” in Vietnam: military operating areas) -Operating north of the city of Chu Lai -Area was described as mountainous and a “free fire zone” -This means that it was a combat zone and heavily depopulated -From Long Binh he flew up on a military aircraft to Chu Lai -After landing he was bussed to the Americal Division Combat Center -There he received refresher training and given a chance to get adjusted -After being processed at the Combat Center he was taken by truck to the battalion area -Also located in Chu Lai -Stayed there for a day or two -From there he was flown to his unit’s firebase on a Huey helicopter -Remembers that it was a tense flight -Recalls how hostile and inhospitable the terrain looked -He landed at the firebase and stayed there for about a day (00:13:57) Introduction to Charlie Company -The next day he rode on the resupply helicopter to join Charlie Company in the field -The other soldiers were wary of him at first because he was the “new guy” -Company Field 1st Sergeant introduced him to the company commander -Sergeant informed the commander that Bob had West Point training -Impressed the company commander and made his acceptance easier -After being introduced to the commander he was assigned to a platoon, then a squad -Operating in thick jungles and a hilled/mountainous area -He arrived at dusk and wound up staying the night in the field -He was put on guard duty his first night there -It was so dark that he couldn’t see his hand in front of his face -They were dug in in foxholes -Noise discipline was heavily enforced -At the time Charlie Company was operating as a single unit -Company strength was about sixty to eighty men -Rarely saw other soldiers in his company though because they were so spread out (00:17:37) Introduction to the Field -The next day was uneventful and spent hiking over the hills -Even with his training he had to get used to carrying equipment and walking all day -They walked both on, and off the trails �-Trails allowed for faster movement, but more dangerous because of booby traps -Cutting through the jungle was more arduous, but much safer -He mainly observed what other soldiers were doing so as to learn how to survive -He grew up hunting and camping so his adjustment didn’t take as long -His squad leader was understanding and gave him time to get used to Vietnam -In a short time he was put on “point” (leading the squad through the jungle) (00:20:50) First Contact -His first contact with the enemy was within his first week of being in country -His unit was moving up a hill when a soldier behind them fired his grenade launcher -The grenadier alerted them to enemy contacts further up the hill -His squad then proceeded to find cover and open fire -They didn’t receive any enemy fire, so they moved up the hill -They didn’t find any enemy soldiers, but they did find Vietnamese equipment (00:21:50) Working off Landing Zone Professional -His unit worked off of a base camp known as Landing Zone (LZ) Professional -One company would stay at the LZ providing security while the other three were in the field -Rotation schedule was three weeks in the field and one week at the LZ -Enemy activity had decreased shortly before his arrival -North Vietnamese had hit all the companies in mid May prior to his arrival -His squad (of about ten to twelve men) lost six soldiers -He was a replacement (00:23:50) Contact with the Enemy -Whenever they did make contact with the enemy it was sporadic -Patrols were always tense because there was no consistency in making contact -Some days they ran into enemy soldiers, other days they didn’t -Combatants that they ran into were mostly soldiers from the North Vietnamese Army -Very few Viet Cong (insurgent) forces operating in their area -His unit’s job was to stop NVA forces coming into South Vietnam via the Ho Chi Minh Trail (00:24:35) Conditions at Night -At night his unit would move to the top of a hill and make camp -Establish a perimeter of defense and spread out -You would pair up with another soldier and make tents out your ponchos -The squad would set up landmines and take rotating guard duty -They would split into platoons at night, but the other platoons stayed close to provide security -North Vietnamese forces would try to assault their camps at night -Remembers one instance where they heard the NVA creeping up on them -Started throwing grenades at the Vietnamese -Avoided using rifles so as not to give away their position -Managed to successfully neutralize the threat -The NVA never successfully broke through their lines in the field -LZ Professional was a bigger target which made staying there more dangerous -Remembers one instance where the NVA got through the outermost defenses -In the morning he found a wounded enemy soldier just outside his bunker (00:27:49) The Men He Served With -Served with a diverse group of men -Because of the draft there were men in his unit from a myriad of backgrounds �-Some of the men in his unit had enlisted -Most of the soldiers in the company were young -Only about eighteen or nineteen years old -Twenty two year olds were considered “old guys” -Very few of the men in his company planned on being career soldiers -Most men dealt with the situation well and followed orders -All in all, they were a dependable group of men (00:28:46) Leadership -His squad leader had already been in Vietnam for over half a year when Bob arrived -After his squad leader left, Bob was promoted to the position of squad leader -At the time of his promotion he was only an E4 (corporal, or specialist) -Next rank above private, and below a sergeant -Most of the sergeants in his company didn’t have any combat experience -As a result they were placed in positions where they could learn how to lead -Original company commander he didn’t know much about -Second company commander was too gung ho and took unnecessary risks -Third company commander was an adept and respectable leader -His platoon leader was also adept at being a leader (00:31:08) Overview of His Time in Vietnam -Spent a year and a half all toll in Vietnam -Standard full year in Vietnam plus the time he was supposed to have spent in training -Spent his first year as an infantryman -After being in the infantry for a year he requested to be transferred to a different position (00:31:53) Overview of His Time as an Infantryman -During his time with the infantry the daily and monthly pattern stayed the same -Worked on and off of LZ Professional -For a short time his company worked off of Firebase Maryann in the west -After that returned to operating out of LZ Professional (00:32:45) Casualties -In his unit five men were killed in action -The men in his unit mostly sustained minor injuries though -Shrapnel wounds and similar injuries; burns, cuts, general abrasions -A few men were severely wounded (00:33:08) Encounters with the North Vietnamese -Whenever they encountered the NVA it was in small groups -Never ran into large groups of enemy soldiers -At the time it seemed like the NVA was laying low and regrouping (00:33:25) Morale, Downtime and Conditions -Overall morale was pretty good in his unit -Everyone stuck together and took care of one another -Generally just complained about the situation, but never did more than that -Credits the cohesion of his squad to having strong leaders -Didn’t spend a lot of downtime back at LZ Professional -After about three quarters of the year he was given an R&R pass -Went to Australia to vacation there -His company went on “stand down” a couple times (chance to relax for a couple days) �-C Company would get rotated to the base at Chu Lai -Allowed to unwind, drink beer and eat steaks (and other good food) -The company was resupplied about once a week when they were in the field -Lived off of C Rations when they were in the field -Had to drink water from local water sources -When they were in the mountain water was flown in in rubber containers -This made the water taste like rubber -Weather was always either really dry, or really wet -During monsoon it rained incessantly -Skin was either dried and cracked, or wet and pruned -Led to serious skin infections developing requiring medevac (00:37:10) Race Relations -Had people of different races and different regional backgrounds serving in his company -He noticed racial tension more on the base camps than in the field -In the field, units couldn’t afford to have soldiers divided by racism -He feels that combat broke down the racial barriers that existed outside of war -At base camps troops would self-segregate -White soldiers would go with white soldiers, black soldiers with black soldiers -Soldiers who drank beer/alcohol would separate themselves from soldiers who did drugs (00:38:38) Substance Use and Abuse -He wasn’t aware of soldiers using drugs in the field -Feels that most soldiers had enough sense not to because it put other lives in danger -If a soldier was doing drugs in the field other soldiers would make him stop immediately (00:39:04) Contact with Vietnamese Civilians -In the firebases or on landing zones they had very little contact with Vietnamese civilians -Even when he was in Chu Lai there was very limited contact with the Vietnamese workers -Army required soldiers to turn in their weapons when they were in civilian areas -Wanted to prevent accidents or war crimes from being committed (00:39:50) Artillery and Air Support -Commonly called in artillery or air strikes while they were in the field -Remembers one time he and another soldier were on the top of a hill -They saw about a company size force of North Vietnamese moving below them -Proceeded to call in artillery fire on the NVA forces -One of the few times he felt sorry for the North Vietnamese -He could see them getting blown to pieces, carrying wounded friends (00:40:45) Attitude towards the North Vietnamese -He, and the other soldiers, had a lot of respect for the North Vietnamese -Felt that they were tough and well trained soldiers -To an extent they even feared the NVA -NVA knew the terrain better and had been fighting foreign soldiers for twenty years (00:41:12) Progress of the War -By late 1969, early 1970 he and the other soldiers knew that the war wasn’t going well for U.S. -No one cared if they “won” they just wanted to survive the deployment and go home -Towards the end of his deployment he knew that U.S. forces were being withdrawn (00:41:42) Contact with Family -While he was in Vietnam he had pretty limited contact with his family �-The primary form of communication was “old fashioned” mail -He would receive care packages from friends and family in the U.S. -He received and sent letters to his father -He had a favorite aunt who would send care packages and letters in lieu of his mother -Mother had died while he was attending West Point -His aunt had kept all the letters that he had sent her -Care packages that he and other soldiers received for Christmas 1969 was memorable -Someone had kept the packages at LZ Professional -Did so, so that the soldiers would have something to open Christmas Day -Everyone had received at least one fruitcake -Mostly received canned goods and baked goods (00:43:40) Transfer to Combat Center in Chu Lai -For the last six months of his tour he was at the Combat Center in Chu Lai -Dealt with processing new troops before being sent to their units and assignments -While there he was promoted to the rank of E5 (sergeant) and worked with a 1st lieutenant -His task was to help build a course on Vietnamese customs and relations -The idea was that a happy native populace was a safe and helpful one -Received mixed reviews from the soldiers -Command also wanted to make sure that the United States was being represented well -Wanted to humanize the Vietnamese to prevent incidents like the My Lai Massacre -He had more contact with Vietnamese civilians when he was permanently stationed at Chu Lai -On occasion Chu Lai took rocket and/or mortar fire -Still safer than being in the field -Early one morning remembers rockets landing immediately behind his barracks -Another day remembers a mortar attack happen while he was teaching soldiers -He saw a lot of troops at Chu Lai that were busy during the day, but not at night -Resulted in heavier drug and alcohol use at night -Race relations were much more strained (00:48:18) Attempting to Transfer to C Company -While he was at Chu Lai Charlie Company got into some pretty heavy fighting -Lost a few people -He requested a transfer back to the field to rejoin C Company -Felt that it was the right thing to do -Wanted to see if he knew anyone who had been hurt, or killed in the fighting -Ultimately his lieutenant at the Combat Center would not approve the transfer -At the time felt guilty about not going, but it was ultimately for the best (00:48:47) Race Riot at Chu Lai -While he was at Chu Lai he witnessed a race riot break out -He was on guard duty when he saw a white sergeant and black sergeant get into a fight -This initial fighting was not race related -Other soldiers perceived it to be a racially fueled fight and got involved -Hundreds of soldiers from clubs and barracks jumped in to fight -He was almost dragged out of his guard post -Managed to scare off the assailant with his M16 rifle -A black captain was called in to break up the riot -Soldiers finally listened and went back to their quarters �-Most of the trouble with race on the base came from the newly arrived soldiers -Coupled with soldiers who had too much time on their hands it was a volatile combo (00:51:50) Awareness of Black Markets or Corruption -While he was in the rear he never saw any evidence of black markets or corruption -Heard stories from other soldiers about the existence of such things though (00:52:20) Funny Incidents -There were funny things that happened in the field in Vietnam -Tries to look back on the good times breaking up the bad times -Remembers one night where they set up a perimeter -They had just seen intense fighting with the NVA -Everyone was on edge waiting to be attacked -In the middle of the night they heard a bloodcurdling scream from within their camp -Everyone went on alert and thought someone had been bayoneted -Turns out that a new guy had found a leech on his body -This led to having to abandon their position and find a new place to camp for the night -Wound up staying up the whole night and being thoroughly annoyed -Looks back on the incident and laughs at the absurdity of it (00:54:56) Walking Point -While he was in the field he walked point quite frequently -Over time he became more confident in his tracking and scouting abilities -Led to a sense of invincibility which he later realized was incredibly dangerous -He had hunted in his youth, so the experience there had helped him in walking point -Fortunately he didn’t run into much in the way of booby traps -He does remember one time where he and another soldier stumbled onto a NVA squad -He and the other soldier killed most of them -Later the day after that the remnants were able to ambush his squad -While he walked point he didn’t find many tunnels or “spider holes” (one man hideouts) -He did find a NVA bunker once and a soldier was sent in to search it -Wound up finding a one hundred pound bag of rice from Houston, Texas (00:58:14) Working with Vietnamese Soldiers -In his company there were Vietnamese scouts -He and another soldier were sent to Chu Lai to pick up a couple Vietnamese scouts once -These men had been part of the Viet Cong -He spent a couple days getting to know his platoon’s scout -Make sure he was trustworthy and a valuable asset -He was able to converse with him in both French and English -Initially his platoon didn’t trust the scout at all -Over time began to find that he was trustworthy -Most men even began to see him as a friend and as a comrade -He never knew what happened to their scout after the war -The other scout that his company picked up turned out to be extremely loyal -One of the men in the company tripped a booby trap -Scout jumped out to knock the grenade away from the American soldier -Unfortunately the American was killed -Scout lost a hand and sustained shrapnel wounds �(01:01:25) Leaving Vietnam and Coming Home -He left Vietnam on Thanksgiving 1970 -By that time he was ready to get out of the country -From Chu Lai he flew down to Cam Ranh Bay -He flew out of Cam Ranh Bay on another chartered flight to Japan and from there to Seattle -Flight arrived in the middle of the night -It was a way for veterans to avoid being harassed by protestors -At Fort Lewis, Washington he got discharged from the Army -Remembers sitting in the Seattle airport waiting for a flight -Relaxing with his Army jacket unbuttoned -Young MP (military police) came up to him and told him to button up his jacket -Bob was surprised by this, but understood the young soldier was doing his job (01:04:01) Life after the War -After returning home he attended college at Illinois State -He had applied and been accepted while he was still in Vietnam -Prior to college he was able to go home, enjoy Christmas 1970 and decompress -Started at Illinois State in January 1971 -First semester was a little difficult -He had made sure to take easy classes while he was still readjusting -He felt very alienated being in college -Didn’t fit in with the largely naïve and young students -While in college he wound up finding housing with other veterans -Lived in a big rented house together -Able to talk about their experiences with each other and be with likeminded people -Over the years he internalized a lot of issues from his experiences in Vietnam -He wound up having enough GI Bill money to get his master’s degree from Illinois State -Field of study was employee health and safety -First got a job in the northwest working for Alcoa Aluminum manufacturing plants -Worked as a safety and training supervisor -From the northwest he transferred to Indiana and from Indiana he was sent to Michigan -Worked for the Upjohn Company (made Rogaine) in Kalamazoo in 1979 (01:07:20) Buddy to Buddy Veterans’ Program -He is now involved in the Buddy to Buddy Volunteer Veteran Program -Non-profit group based out of the University of Michigan -Use grant money from various sources to aid veterans -They provide support and outreach assistance to post September 11th servicemen -The main focus of the program is for veterans to be helping veterans -He finds that it is fulfilling to work with this new generation of veterans -He is the coordinator for the western portion of Michigan -Program works in conjunction with the Army National Guard -Volunteers spend time at armories getting to know veterans -Figuring out what they need help with: employment, finances, family, etc. -From there help them access available public and private resources -He has found that veteran unemployment is improving, but the unemployment rate is still high -Tends to lead to family issues, or substance abuse -The Army now supplies veterans with the information to access resources �-Most veterans, understandably, are more focused on just getting home though -About sixty percent of the volunteers are Vietnam veterans -They see it as a chance to provide new veterans with the things they were denied � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ShortR1552V Title A name given to the resource Short, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2013 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-15 Description An account of the resource Bob Short was born in 1949 in Vandalia, Illinois. He grew up in the small town of Mulberry Grove, Illinois and graduated from high school there in 1967. Upon graduating high school he attended the West Point military academy in New York. He attended there for three academic semesters until he decided that it was time to leave. In February 1969 he formally left West Point. After leaving the academy he volunteered for the draft and was soon thereafter sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. He was able to skip training because of his West Point experience and by May 26, 1969 he was in Vietnam. He was assigned to Charlie Company of the 1st Battalion of the 46th Infantry part of the Americal (23rd Infantry) Division. His unit operated off of Landing Zone Professional and around the area of Chu Lai. Over the course of a year and a half he would serve in a variety of roles, from walking point to working in the Combat Center at Chu Lai developing a Vietnamese relations course. In November 1970 he left Vietnam and by January 1971 he was attending college at Illinois State. He would go on to get his master's degree in employee health and safety, and working all over America finally settling down in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He is now a prominent member of the Buddy to Buddy Volunteer Veteran Program based out of the University of Michigan helping veterans in the post-9/11 era. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Short, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/230aebb322fc87e53b80753c1c6c14a8.mp4 bea9b5ca626da4849ed98ddc753198e4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b9ae4dd7d0d7d57fc15819ecd4c2bfc.pdf 34c2fcc342e2dcd8293372269dffa91d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Vietnam War Henry Shuster Jr. Length of Interview (00:30:03) Background (00:00:00) Born in Yukon, Florida on the Jacksonville Naval Air Station Father was in the Navy then worked for the Chrysler Corp. Brother who worked for GM Sister is a school teacher Drafted out of college (00:01:15) • Thought that if he enlisted he could go into Officer Candidate School • Was married at the time with two children, needed the money Chose to enlist in the Army and went to Officer Candidate School Was 22 at the time Training (00:02:04) Went into basic training for eight weeks Then eight weeks of AIT (Advanced Individual Training) Went to Officer’s Candidate School in Fort Benning, Georgia (00:02:44) • Learned tactics, field situations, how to command soldiers • There for six months • Graduated as a 1st Lieutenant; given 30 days leave After graduating, went to complete Jungle Training in Panama (00:03:38) • Put near the Panama Canal in the middle of the jungle • Learned to survive in the jungle; how to live on your own �• Escape and Invasion Course: done in the middle of the night, dropped off at an unknown location from which you must find your way back to camp; had to avoid capture • Graduated from Jungle school Sent to a unit (00:04:54) It was a very large change between civilian life and the Army life (00:05:10) His family could go with him when he was assigned to a unit; lived on a base War Time (00:06:19) Sent to Vietnam, landed in Saigon Flew to Ten In in a fixed-wing airplane Put into a helicopter and flown to a fire base; became a part of the 1st Air Cavalry Division • Was a part of the infantry that gets around in helicopters Stationed outside of Ten In, between Saigon and Cambodian Border (00:07:28) • Job was to prevent enemy soldiers from entering Saigon Describes the geography of Vietnam and the tactics used during the war (00:07:54) • The North Vietnamese would use Cambodia as a way to enter Vietnam Wasn’t happy when going to Vietnam, had to leave his family; felt afraid, as well (00:09:25) In WWII, Shuster’s Cavalry, the 1st Cavalry, rode on horseback, but in Vietnam they used helicopters instead (00:10:06) The further you get into Vietnam, the more scared you get (00:10:41) Belonged to a battalion, which includes two or three companies, which then includes two or three platoons; 20 guys in a platoon (00:11:18) • About one hundred in the company and twenty men in his platoon under his charge Had to take care of each other, so you were friends with everyone in your platoon (00:12:00) • Used to get Jungle Rot or ringorm because of Vietnam’s climate; take care of each other medically • Have to back everybody up in firefights �• After the war, everyone went their own way; never saw them again The day Shuster left, people in his platoon were wounded; he was worried his Sergeant had died, but the man actually had been in the Army Hospital for three years (00:13:15) Kept in touch with his family through letters; his wife would write freedom in the corner as a stamp, also used tape recorders (00:14:00) Always on-duty in War: Search and Destroy missions (00:14:45) • Describes a Search and Destroy Mission • During the night, would stop the enemy from crossing through the Cambodian border into Vietnam • In the field for 40 days in the jungle; every five or six days, supplies dropped by helicopters (00:15:39) • Had very little free-time; going back to the fire base for three or four days could be considered free-time • At night, had to guard the base The worst thing that Shuster could imagine is dying in Vietnam after being there for a year (00:17:19) • “Short-timer’s Calendar”: only stay in Vietnam for 365 days in which soldiers would compare how many days they have left, knew the exact date you would leave Went into Vietnam August of ’69 and got out August ’70; wasn’t in Vietnam when the War ended (00:18:20) • In 1975 (when the War ended), was working for Chrysler Going Home (00:18:40) Went home by jet In the Vietnam War, they only stayed for one year, unlike Iraq where soldiers can be sent back (00:18:56) • Always working with different people Didn’t have a hard time re-adjusting back to civilian life, didn’t think of the War (00:20:15) Knows a few people who are Vietnam Vets �The War made him grow-up; has respect for his country and the way we live (00:21:45) • Feel that you are a part of your country, pride; respect for the life we live; Vietnam had terrible living conditions • They’d always been at war Most people in Vietnam lived in grass huts and mud; rains all the time, constantly wet (00:23:22) Didn’t speak with many civilians, was in a “free-fire zone” (00:24:15) • Only interaction was with “Coke” girls, sold real Coca-Cola Given MPC’s in order to pay for everything, military money (00:26:08) No positive times, weather was terrible; no housing, a lot of swamps Landed in San Francisco when arriving from Vietnam (00:27:40) • On the base for three or four days for examination; checked for disease • Shuster’s family was living in Detroit, Michigan, flew back • Was given two balloons for his kids; had a very happy reunion, it’s what he remembers most � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShusterH Title A name given to the resource Shuster, Henry Jr. (Interview outline and video), 2009 Description An account of the resource Henry Shuster Jr. served in the Army during the Vietnam War. After attending Officer Candidate School and going through training, he was assigned to the 1st Air Cavalry Division where he dealt with many search and destroy missions in Vietnam. His station was between the border of Cambodia and the city of Saigon, which was his company's top priority to protect. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shuster, Henry Jr. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dettloff, Ashley (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-30 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/695a302d6d1f1926f01c3501b653e43e.m4v 0c045301d9a9bb83932f05ad4a5ff88a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/79a92a1fbaaf5655c16ef8371c6e644c.pdf 4405bc9ac88a66ba9fc79391e77ab426 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Transcript Harold Sibley World War II Interviewer: Frank Boring (1:22:17) Let‟s begin with your name and where and when you were born? (02:59) My name is Harold W. Sibley. I was born in Grand Lake, Michigan, just outside of Flint, Michigan, a little town, in 1921. What was your early schooling like? Well my first day they took me to kindergarten. Set me in that room in the middle of the room, and I started looking around and I didn’t know any of those kids there. I got up and walked out and went home. Then I waited until I knew that school was going to be out before I went home, but they had already called my parents and found out that I had taken off. But, I was taken back the next day and they made sure that I never did anything like that again. So how about high school? I understand that was a little bit more enjoyable experience? Yes, we had 4 years of high school there and I went out for both basketball and football and I ended up as captain of the basketball team my last 2 years and I was co-captain of the football team my last year. So, physical activities in a way came natural to you. You felt like.... They did, they did. That‟s great. Now you got out of high school, I believe in 1939. (04:18) Yup. So what did you did then. You had to go to work. This was not exactly a prosperous time in America. Oh no, no. They were still recovering from the Depression. But, I managed to mow lawns for people that had the money. Of course they didn’t pay much, maybe $ .25 for a big lawn or something like that, but it was still money. And, anything that I could do to earn a buck or dollar I did. Until, well in high school, I had that ice cream parlor job, but then my dad started let him help him in the cemetery, even digging graves. Today it is all done by automation. �Right, right. Which is real physical work. I mean, your muscles are aching when you dig like that. But I learned to drive. Because, I had a truck there to haul stuff around in and that is how a learned to drive, really, at 12 years of age. But soon there was a better job opportunity. Oh yeah, oh yeah. When I was old enough to get into the plant at GM. And they were starting to recover somewhat. I realize that you were very young at this time, but were there any rumblings at all of what was going on in Europe. At this time when you were at GM. Oh yeah, we knew that England was getting involved. Because you were approaching 18. You were approaching the time that something might have to happen to you. Well I graduated at 17. But I knew that as soon as Pearl Harbor was hit that my age group was going to get involved. Well tell me about Pearl Harbor. (06:15) I was at Betty’s house that day, and there were 2 other guys there for her sisters, when it came over the radio that Pearl Harbor was attacked. What was your reaction? Oh boy! This is the start of it now. So you figured out that you were going to be someway or another involved. Yup, and I thought that well maybe if I could fly I would like that better, but that didn’t work out, so. Well what you actually do... You tried to get into the Navy Air Corps. Well when I tried to get into the corps? Oh no, I failed because of my eyes. Right, but I mean you tried to get into the Navy Air Corps? Oh yes, yes. �Yeah. So basically it was because of your eyes that you not able to. And, so what happened after that? Well I went back to work at GM. And then soon a notice came in the mail, or ... how did you find out? Well there was quite a span in between because I dated a lot with her and we got acquainted all of the time. But, I knew I was going to get drafted because of my age, and actually I wasn’t married. But, by the time I went into the service I was. Because I was inducted on July 29 and on the 1st of August we were married, and on the 8th of August was my birthday. (07:41) So once you were inducted into the military, what was the next step? What did you have to do? Did you have to report somewhere? We went over to the army base over in Michigan here. What is the name of that? Fort Custer? Yeah. One week there. Got rid of my civilian clothes and got on army clothes, and... Well lets back up a little bit. You arrived at Fort Custer in a bus, or a train? On a train. Okay, and you were with a bunch of other draftees. Well yes. So you‟re off the train and you are in civilian clothes. What do you see? What was Fort Custer like when you first got there? Well, I had been to some CC camps before, which had a similarity to this. And it didn’t shock me to much with what I saw. But anyway... But there was activity going on. There were people marching, and there was a flag pole ... Yup, yup. So they brought you in. Yes they brought us in. Okay, and where did you go? �Well they put us in a group. Okay. Took a picture. Okay. And then gave us living quarters. Okay. These are barracks? Yeah. Okay. And then told us what we could expect about what we had to do. We might have to come and police the grounds or something. Or we might have to go get our new clothes ready and get rid of the old clothes. So there was something like that happening all of the time. (09:11) So, you arrived to get your new military clothes and of course they had a tailor there from New York, and he is making sure that your arm length, and your leg length and your boots are being measured. I never saw one. What did they do? Well they give me stuff that fit me. They basically took a look at you and said what are you‟re a 30 this or a 30 something and throw some pants at you. Yup, yup. So, basic training there, you said.... this was not basic training per se. Not really, but you could have pulled KP duty or something like that, too, or table waiter. But the day that I was supposed to do that, my brother-in-law brought Betty up to see me, and they excused me. Ahhhhhh.. So this is not the actual basic training. This was more of a staging area. Oh yeah, there was not big deal there. �So where did you go next? Uh, they put us on a train, and I wasn’t sure where we were going, and none did. We weren’t told where we were going at first. But, finally the second or third day out, I says - Ray was with me, my friend - I says, we are going kind of southwest. Where do you think that we are going and he said, “I don’t know”. So anyway we ended up in Texas. Okay. Now let‟s backtrack. Ray was actually somebody you met while you were at GM. No, no. I met him at our first camp there. Okay, but wasn‟t he working at GM or something? No, he worked at a bank in Flint. Oh. Okay, okay, I got confused. Okay, so anyway you both met at camp and you kind of became buddies because you were from the Michigan area and all of that. Sure did. So you arrived in Texas. And what was that like when you got off of the train there? Was it bigger than Camp Custer, or...? (11:09) Well it was in the middle of the night. It was hotter than blazes and we probably had to march over a mile and a half to get to the barracks where we were going to be. Of course we were all wringing wet by that time. Yeah, sure. And you couldn’t try to take a shower because there was no hot water left. But anyway, ah, we finally got settled into our barracks and they hauled us all out and they gave us a speech about what we were going to be involved in. It wasn’t too bad really. So, what the routine like? The typical day? You get up around 10 o‟clock in the morning, have some coffee, kind of hang around for awhile smoking cigarettes? No, no. Reveille was about 6 o’clock. And you’d better get up. And you might be a table waiter or KP. I never got caught very often on that. A couple of times maybe, but that was it. So then it was calisthenics, marching, left, right, left right. (12:17) Learning how to right, how to stroll, how to do this. What was your drill sergeant like? Was he....? �He was a decent guy, he really was. He really was. Because, you know the usually, the guy screaming in your face, you‟re a maggot, you‟re this and that. Okay, I’ve seen some of those, too. Never under them, but I ended up having to do that too for my own platoon, but..... We will get into the later. That is an interesting sidetrack there. So, basic training though, you‟re going through all- the people that were in basic with you, were they from all over the country, or...? They were, yup. Okay. So this is your first real experience with people that were not from Flint or Michigan or ...... Oh, yeah, yeah. Was there a sense of cameraderie amongst your group, you are all in this together; you have a common enemy to fight? Or were you just too young for this? There were maybe 6 of us from Michigan. Okay. Kind of huddled together and ate together? Yeah, yeah. Took some pictures together and we even had a little Mexican guy that we fell in love with. But, we took him into town one evening, when we had some free time and went rolling skating. He had never been on skates. So you can imagine how that..... (13:38) Probably the way that I would be on roller skates - all over the place. We had a lot of fun with him, but... Now, during this period of time, you happened to come upon a notice that was on the bulletin board. And I want you to ..... This was pretty close to the end of our training time that I saw that. And I got a hold of Ray and I says “Come on over and read that”. And what did it say. Looking for several good young healthy men, good physiques. Strenuous work to be done. Hard work all of the time and you also have to jump out of an airplane. But then it pays $50 extra a month. That’s �what got me there, because that was another extra $50 that I could send home. I was only getting $10 dollars a month, because I had an allotment to Betty. But that was all I needed to live on, really in basic training. Well they fed you, they clothed you, all of that stuff. Oh yeah. Sure, sure. So what did Ray have to say about this? He said, “Well it might be a good idea.” He was engaged too, by the way. But he never lived to get married. Yup. So, you guys decided that you were going to take up this opportunity. So, what did you do. How did you .....? Well they accepted 28 of us. Okay. Then were there two officers came from the special forces and each one was individually interviewed for about 2 hours. Wanted to know all about you. Like we are doing here now. And after that, then there a lot of physical fitness things you had to do and qualify in it, or they said no. But there were 28 of us accepted. Let me just..... This is going to sound like a stupid question. I imagine this was very strenuous even for a 21 year old kid. They really put you through the paces. Oh, yes. But we had been ... There were several good hills around Camp Alders, Texas where we had basic training, so I knew what climbing a mountain was. Yeah, and plus you had from basketball days, and from football days, your body at 21 was in good shape. But still, even for you this was a strenuous test? Oh yeah, it was. Okay. So how did you find out that you got this appointment? Well, after they interviewed everybody. They called us all together and told us that you have all been accepted - the 28 - and you will be coming to our base (but they never told us where it was) for some more hard physical training. (16:18) That must have been interesting sitting in the audience and listening to it - hard, I thought we just went through really hard. You mean it gets worse? �But anyway, the training group that we went with were sent to the Pacific at the end of the basic. They left us there for 2 weeks before they shipped us out. Now, had you graduated from basic yet. Oh yeah. Okay, alright. So you had graduated from that. Oh, yup, yup. But, we were just left there and we weren’t hardly doing anything. Going off for exercise I guess for about 2 weeks. And, finally they said, “Well put your stuff together, you are going to be on your way.” And of course they never told us where we were going. So, we had a First Lieutenant from there that put us on the train and he was going with us. But he had lived in a town in Nebraska, I think it was. And we got about..... Well anyway we started out and finally after about 2-3 days, I says, “Ray, I thought that we would be going to Fort Benning in Georgia for jump training. We’re not going south. We are going northwest.” And he says, “Well I guess you’re right.” But anyway, he had the train pulled off to a site in his home town there. And he says, “My mother is going to be at a hotel here and she wants to buy dinner for you guys.” Wow! Boy, we thought that was pretty darn nice, because we were eating out of cans. Yeah, this was the First Lieutenant‟s mother. Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh wow! So she did. She did. Wow! We got back on the train and took off again. Ended up in Helena, Montana. And what happened in Helena, Montana? Well the train was able to get real close to the base. So, we had to march into camp and as we marched in. They kept calling off names and they did it alphabetically because there was 3 regiments. So first regiment got so many of these guys. Second regiment got so many. Third regiment got so many and mine being S, I was in the third regiment, and my buddy Ray was also, because he was a W. He was in the company next to me. �Now, I thought that you went to Camp Harrison first, or did I get it reversed. No. We did go to Harrison. That was the first camp we went to. And that was the home base, too. And that was the ... Okay, that was when you first heard the name... First special service force. Yup, yup. And we didn’t know what those Canadians were doing there, either. (19:00) So you actually met the Canadians at that time? Yeah, some of them had the ride there, too. So, this was all in Texas at Camp Harrison when the Canadians were gathered and you were gathered, or was that in Montana? That’s Montana. Oh, okay. So now we are in Montana. Canadians have come aboard. So, did you train separately from them, or did you train with them? Yup. Some of their march calls we adopted and some of ours they adopted. So, we had fun doing it really, so. Were there also French Canadians amongst this group? Yup, Yup, could speak French. Now, I read this, and I don‟t know if this applied to you, but I read this about the First Special Force - that some of the Canadians wore the kilts. You know, like the Scottish kilts? You didn’t see that very often. Okay, alright. Especially in the winter time. So they were wearing pants, the regular pants, just like very one else? Yes, yes. �Okay. So, what was the training in Montana like? I mean, you had gone through basic training. You had gone through this kind of test to become one of this group. What was Montana training like? Rough. The obstacle course was more than twice as long as the one we used in basic training. And you had to do the whole thing. We had mountain climbing. Some mornings they would get us up and there a mountain just out side of camp, and we had to go run up that mountain before we could go to breakfast. And, we had hand to hand combat, right on the ground, too, part of the time, by this - he was an Irishman really, but he was the one that I told you was an instructor over in Japan. So he had actually learned martial arts in Japan and adapting those techniques of Judo or Karate to your training. So you are flipping people, and... Well yeah, but if you want to shut a guy up that is talking too much, you just do that to his throat and he doesn’t talk anymore for a while, which I had to do to a couple to Germans one time. Now in Montana, what was the base like? Did you have actual wooden structure barracks? Were you in tents or....? (21:28) We had tar paper huts. Okay, tar paper huts. And what about the mess tent? Well that was a regular building. This was an old base for - not the regular army, but the... National Guard? National Guard. Okay. So this was a training base for the National Guard. But then they had to make a tower for drying the parachutes, too. And a place to hang them. Now, what was the food like? Was it a chow line kind of buffet? No, actually we could make it ourselves, if we wanted to. Really! Wow! Especially on the weekend. Yeah. �But, during the week, they usually had a regular meal. But, if you wanted to go in and have ham and eggs or bacon and eggs, whatever, you could do it yourself, on Sundays. But during the week, you‟re talking about trays going down the line. Slop on potatoes, slop on something, slop on something. But the food wasn‟t too bad you say. Well, where I saw that was when we were at that Bradford Naval base, for amphibious training. We had to use the Navy for food. The first day that I went through there, I had a tray and walking along and all of a sudden I got a great big pile of beans on my plate. I said, “I don’t eat those things.” “Well if you’re here you are going to eat them.” But a..... So, the training in Montana. That included what? You mentioned parachute. This was the first time you had ever gotten involved in parachutes? (23:00) Yeah. They had the mockups for us to jump out of like you are supposed to jump out of the plane. Right. And there is stages, right? You start for a certain height and then another height and another height.. Now I have paratroopers that made it through and they talked about guys that when they finally got way up high, they just couldn‟t to it. Well at Benning they had towers, but they would take you up high and then drop you at Fort Benning. Of course, we didn’t have .... You didn‟t have that in Montana. No, no. So, this is the real basic, basic stuff. Okay. Was there any point at this period, where you thought, “Oh my gosh, what have I gotten myself into.” No not really. So, this was exciting stuff, this is ..... We had to go out on night marches too, and use a compass to find our way back and how to do that, and some nights you might not have any sleep. You work all day and go out all night. But you are 21 years old and you can do that sort of thing, especially if you are physically fit. And we were taught demolitions. That was another thing that we had to learn. Ah. And we blew up some bridges that shouldn’t have been blown up and Fredericks let us know about that. �Fredericks of course is the man in charge. Oh, yeah. He became a Major General before he got through. He was a Lieutenant Colonel when he took over the force. Then after we took Rome, he was promoted to a Colonel. But, back then, this was an experimental - this was an experiment, right? I mean this was Fredericks idea, and people bought into in the military, but this was an experiment. If you guys failed, this probably would not have continued on to become the Green Berets. That’s right. But, Eisenhower knew him very well. New what kind of a man he was and what he could do, and so that is why he was the one that picked. But they also sent him to England to see if they agreed if they had the right guy or not, and of course they took to him right away. But regardless of that, this still was an experimental force. Oh, yeah. It was the First Special Force. First of the special forces. And when Kennedy was President, he had the current Green Berets offer to wear a green beret, which we didn’t have. But we also got a letter stating that we were entitled for that green beret now. So, at our reunions we always had a memorial service for the guys that had passed away over the last year, and when we went to Rome, we decided that we should all dress alike. Which we did. We had a navy blazer, gray slacks, a white shirt and a force tie with our emblem on it. And we were able to wear our Green Berets, and we always had a little march to where we were having our memorial service and then they read off those that had passed away, and.... Yeah, sure, sure. Now your training in Montana then, the obstacle courses, the mountain climbing, demolition. You are doing really a plethora of activities. An Army infantry would be doing this, or guys training for mountain training would do mountain, paratroopers for paratrooping. Your doing everything. That’s right. Even had to learn to drive a weasel. What is a weasel? Well, it is a little tracked vehicle that could carry 4-5 men, made by Studebaker that they thought that we might have to use if they dropped us into Norway to get out, but we never had to use it that way. (26:54) So, the Montana training then eventually came to an end. And, did they give you any kind of a ceremony, like with Boot Camp, or was there any kind of a okay you guys have gotten through here, now you are going there, tomorrow we are going somewheres else. �Well, yes. But the thing that we had been training for had been cancelled. This was Norway. Yup, no, no, no. This was –yes Norway, this was Norway. Yeah, okay alright. That was cancelled by the king. So right away General went to Washington to find out what we could do and that was when we ended up in the Aleutians. Okay, I don‟t want to jump that quickly. You are finished up in Montana. The word comes to you that the original mission that you were supposed to be training for in Norway is now off. So, where did you go next? We went to Camp Bradford, Virginia for amphibious training. Because he had found this job in the Aleutians. Did you know about that job in the Aleutians at that point? Not until he came back and told us. Okay, okay. So now you are in Virginia and you are training for an amphibious landing on the Aleutians. Okay, what was that amphibious training like? Because you guys had not done this previous this time. (28:25) No, no we hadn’t. We were in the Chesapeake. Okay. For our rubber boat training. Okay. How to inflate those and how to paddle them with 6 guys in it and your equivalent. Then they had a big ship come in and we had to go up and down a rope ladder and the thing was that the Marines had already done this, but we beat them. Oh really! We did it faster than they did we were told, but then we had an actual dry run to make an invasion on dry land. That way.... �So, this is not like the D-Day thing and the big landing crafts and the thing comes down and you right out. This is literally 6 men in a boat, inflatable boat and you are paddling away and ... Yup, Yup. And, I would assume that this was done at night. This was night training, right? This is not type of thing that you would be doing in broad daylight. The 2 times we did it was on the Aleutians and going into Southern France those islands off shore. Okay. Alright so now from Virginia, you have completed your training with the landing, okay. Where do they take you next and how do they transport you? From Virginia.... We were going to be shipped out of Virginia, but then they put us in another camp, Camp Patrick Henry, I think was the name of it. We had to stay there until they were ready to ship us out. How many men, comprise of this „ship us out‟? I mean how many people are we talking about here? When we were at full strength, after we were trained and ready to go. Each regiment had at least 600 men. So we had 1800 total. I will go back to 2 reunions ago, which was in Canada and they asked how many of you guys were originals in Montana. And, I think that there were about 65 of us there. But there was a big crowd, but a lot of recruits that we had taken along the way. Right, we will talk about them later. Alright so this 1800 group is now put out to a ship, a transport ship, a luxury liner, a troop ship, what kind of a ship was it? (30:41) A Victory Ship. Ah, yeah, okay. Going to the port of San Francisco. And you had never been on the West Coast. Ah, no, no. Okay. But when we got there, they put us out on an island, so we couldn’t tell other people what we were doing. It wasn‟t Alcatraz was it? �Anyway, we weren’t there too long and we were shipped out. But, it was a Victory Ship. As soon as we got out under the Golden Gate Bridge, the prop was out of the water and it was .............and a little bit beyond there it was like this. I could stand on the deck and there was water there and the next thing I am looking 40 ft. down. I had a guy that got so sick that he never got out of bed all the way up there and turned green. How was your reaction physically? It didn’t bother me. It didn’t bother me. It is amazing the number of vets that I have talked to that came out that same - not out of your ship obviously - but out of that same San Francisco Bay and went through that same exact experience that you are talking about. And gosh it is just across aboard. Some are a little bit sick. Some violently ill. Some not. It is just amazing. Oh, yeah. They had barrels rolling all over the deck breaking loose and spilling oil. It was a mess really. But, on the way back, we were on one of the president’s name ship’s... President Pierce? No, it was an old one. Oh, okay. But it was a better ride. They had ice cream on that one too. So, the trip over - where did you land? (32:18) Uh, the name of that island was ..... That‟s alright. It was secured island though in the Aleutians. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Okay, so you are not landing into a battle zone. No. No. No. Did you disembark and actually go onto the island? Oh yeah, we lived there for awhile. In tents, and then marched through muskeg. March through what? �Muskeg they called it. You think that it is grass, but you walk down and you sink in maybe over your ankles. Then we had guards on at night and they would get lost in the dark. Oh gosh. This was an island, but what was the terrain like? Was it a jungle terrain or .....? Well there was no trees or anything, but it was full of this muskeg they called it. Just like muddy grass kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you are sleeping in pup tents? No, paramilitary tents. Okay, alright and were you allowed to have heat and fire and things like that to keep warm. Oh it was warm. It was August. Oh, okay, you didn‟t want any fires. Yeah. Okay. What about insects and things like that. No there weren’t too many there really. The only trouble it they had to bring water into us. So you were staged there for a couple to weeks or....? (33:47) Oh yeah, yeah. And were you informed about where you were going or what you were doing? Were there any briefings of any kind? Yeah, yeah. So what were they telling you? They were telling that uh, there is 2 islands there held by the Japs and somebody is already on the other mountain and taken that, but your mountain is going to be Kiska, and that is their air base also. So, the first and third regiments made the invasion there. The second regiment, who had taken Mount La Defencia, were back on the island with their chutes on and ready to come if we needed them. Of course that never happened. What some people may not know is that this is the real invasion of American land. I mean this is right up into Alaska. This is a back door into Alaska. The fear was on both and the Canadians and Americans. If the Japanese were able to move up those islands. They would be able to invade Alaska, invade Canada and then come on down. So you were actually sent out there and to really �retake American land. Now, what was the preparation for this invasion? What did you guys have to go through? I mean you are getting gear on. You are getting..... How are you going to get to that island? I mean give us an idea of the whole preparation to go. Well depending on what section you were in. What was your section? Mine was the mortar section. So I usually carried the barrel of the mortar and another guy carried the plate and another that was in the squad carried the ammunition. And of course that stuff gets heavy. Especially if you are trying to get over a 6 ft. wall. (35:33) Well I don‟t want to jump ahead to quickly. Let‟s move forward now. You are still on this island. Did you board a boat at some time? Yes we did. Okay, and what kind of boat was this? A destroyer. A destroyer, alright. And now you are moving forward to this rendezvous point ... By rubber boat. By rubber boat. Okay. So you got off of the destroyer and these rubber boats and once again used these rope ladders and down into this rubber boat. There is 6 of you in a boat and a whole bunch of other people with 6 people in a boat. Plus the ammunition and equipment. Was it a surprise, or did you encounter guns and shots as you were coming in? No. No. There was no , it was quiet. Too quiet, we thought too quiet. At night, pitch black. Oh yeah, yeah. Until we got in the middle of the lake and the moon came out. Suddenly you are silhouetted right across there. What was your reaction to that. Well my sergeant major was in my boat. I said, “What do you think Pat?”. He said, “Boy we are going to get it now,” he said. But we never heard a shot fired. �So you silently land and you get the boat up over the 6 ft wall. Now this wall was supposed to be how big, you were told? Well, they told us that there was a wall there about 3-4 ft. high. You can get over that easy enough, so. But it was 6 ft. So, you get over the wall, still no resistance. No. But we had to be real quiet so. So as you are marching forward, what happened? (37:23) We were only maybe 40-50 yards from the lake. And still no resistance. No. What did you finally come upon? What did you...? Well we got to the lake, it was a small lake too. So we were paddling. We got about in the middle of it and like I said the moon came out and silhouetted us, and I thought boy this is going to be it. Right. We got no chance now and we kept paddling and paddling. Got to the other shore and got out and took our equipment and started up that mountain and we got about ½ way up when we got the message that there was nobody up here. So some advance patrol perhaps had gone up there to scout it and... Yeah, the first regiment that was making an invasion with us over on the other side got up there before we did. Because they had an easy way to go. I see. So what did you actually find when you got up to the top there? We found dugouts. Some places we found some hot coals and a fire yet, so we knew that they had left in a hurry. And some of their equipment was there. I found a lot of post cards and things like that. I got some of them even in my scrap book today. Wow? And they had underwater vessel there. (38:54) �A submarine? A submarine base. And they had got away with those too. Those were empty. So, we backed us off and we went back to our island - no we didn’t. They didn’t even let us go back to our island. They got our stuff with the service group that we had. Always had a service group. And they got our equipment and got it on board the ship and we settled back to go to the states. This is so amazing. It must have been in many ways, I mean, I‟m sure that you were glad that it happened this way. But in many ways anti-climactic. I mean here you are geared up and there is nothing there. That’s right. Something your not to find a little later on. Alright, so now you are back in the U.S. and where did you end up.... We ended up in Camp Stoneman, California. He was giving everybody a 10 day leave. So those in that area got to leave there, then we went back to Port Island. The same place that we came from, because that base was empty. There was nobody there and then they started letting us have leave, too. So, where did you go? Pontiac. Oh, okay, alright, so you went back to meet with Betty. Yah, Yah. Oh, that is wonderful. In fact, we were there twice and she came out there two different times. She was working at GM, too. She was a secretary to an agent. And she also had a week off while I was in basic training and she came down to me there. Great, great. Now where were you assigned next. (40:47) We went back to Vermont and were waiting for orders and I think that we were to end up in Italy. But to get there, we had to go across Africa in box cars. But it was kind of interesting, because actually we stopped at where the home of Sidi Bellabeste was quartered - French Legion. And we would catch them out on dress parade and boy, they were really sharp looking. But other than that, no. Did you know where you were going? I think we all surmised that we were going to Italy, really. Because Africa had been taking by .... �Right. So when we got to the other end of it, they were on another boat and we went to Italy. Where did arrive in Italy? I forget that name of that port, but it had been bombed out and there were ships in the way and our ship had to really get us into the shore, but then they took us to just outside of this town that had been Italian Army base and we were quartered there for a couple of weeks probably. Once again, what was the force like. I mean, you were in a group..... was this a huge number, like the whole 1800 or so was gathered, okay? Of course, Yup. All right. In fact, the only entertainment we ever had was Joe E. Brown. Oh yeah. (42:30) They had him come and put a show on for us when we were there. Bob Hope didn‟t come with them? No, never saw him. But we had to do exercises and stay in shape all of those two weeks while were there. And then the next thing, they put us on trucks and took us close to Casino where we got out, and we got out where the artillery was firing up on these mountains. So, you were actually seeing combat, I mean, you are not in combat, but you are seeing it. (43:07) We were seeing it and we got to a certain location that the General picked out for us to keep cover in. And, then he took a scouting party with him really, maybe 5-6 guys and they went up the mountain. And the first night they got in under cover, so nobody could see them, and they had to keep quiet. And the next time he went a little further and scouted out this almost straight up cliff wall, and he said that’s where we are going. They don’t expect anybody to come up there. And so the very next night they went up and they got up. Now you are in reserve right? We are in reserve, in reserve. So they threw these long ropes up and the hook caught on and they could go up the rope and he got them all up there and they made their charge as soon as day break hit and they �had it pretty well secured in 6 hours, because the Germans didn’t expect anybody to come up where we did. And this is the hill that you were talking about earlier that previous groups had tried to take unsuccessfully. Yup, yup. And, I could understand why because the path we were taking supplies up on was a nice path, you could walk up that, but I found 2-3 bodies along the way that were from other outfits that were still there, so that was what was wrong. So, that’s what was wrong, they tried to get up the wrong place. The Germans then, were concentrating their fire power on the paths, not expecting somebody to come up straight up the hill. That’s right, that’s exactly right, Yup. So, you followed up then with supplies of food and ammunition and what not, your group did. Yup, Yup. And when you got to the top, what did you find there? (45:04) Well there was still a little fight going on the far side of the mountain, but they probably had it all cleaned up by then, so. Were they bringing the wounded back and ... Yup, oh yeah. So, this was not an easy battle. No. In fact we got ...........................................................instead of the pack I had on my back. I am going to have to ask you not to put your hand up there because you are blocking the microphone and I‟m afraid that we might not get all of these words. Okay. So, were you able to communicate at all back home, were you writing letters back to Betty or to your family and anything like that. I had a little code the first letter of each paragraph spelled out where I was. Anzeo. And I wondered how am I going to use that Z. Oh, I knew a kid that was nick named Zeke. So, I said have you see anything of Zeke has been around. So, she knew where I was. �So, tell me about Anzio. What was the preparation for it and what was your direct involvement? (46:16) Well they had a rough time getting on there because my platoon lieutenant was killed. The executive officer was killed and the captain was wounded severely and he never came back. So, they had a rough time getting there. But, this was across that Mussolini Canal on a couple of spots where they could get across and that is where they got it at. I wasn’t there at the time. So, when I got there, my first sergeant, who I was a good friend of was commissioned and he was my lieutenant then. And that is when he put me in charge of the mortar section, because it makes a difference whether you are a T-4 or a buck sergeant. If you’re a buck sergeant, you got control of men. With T-4 you’re just one of the guys, but it is the same pay. Right. And you were a T-4. I was a T-4. T for technical. Yup, Yup. How many people were in your immediate group - the mortar group? I had the bazooka men in my group. I had a rocket launcher in my group. I had about 6 people altogether with myself. Okay. What was your, you said that you handled the mortar, but what was your specific job? You drop the shell in and shoot it? Well, well, I did help that, but the reason why I got assigned to that was because I knew what 5 yards was. I knew what 100 yards was. Where most of these guys didn’t. So, even a lieutenant in another platoon would say, “Come on over here, I got a target down here and I know that my guys can’t hit it.” So, I would give them the yardage and they would fire it, and they would hit. But, I was proud of being able to do that. That’s why I got the job. Accuracy is important. Very important. (48:20) I remember those 5 yard line on that football field. Oh, of course! Of course! Uh you had mentioned about this Mussolini canal. advantages for you was there was a lot of dirt there you guys could dig in. One of the Oh yeah, we had good shelter. But when we got on the other side of that and across the canal you better take cover. �What happened? They would fire on you. So that was why we did so much night work. Most of out work was done at night. The shelling that was coming in, was that mortar fire as well as artillery? Mortar fire. Well not so much artillery because they knew they couldn’t do anything to us there. But, there was mortar and rifle. They would be on .... well in fact there was 3 regiments [battalions?] of Marines [Rangers?] on Anzio and 2 of those battalions went out on patrol one night and got captured all of them. The next day they marched down the main street of Rome. So that left one battalion of Marines there on the island. Well they were integrated into our outfit. It‟s strange for them to be integrated into your outfit. Well they had had more training then the regular... Right, oh yeah. So, so, we accepted then and they were with us until the outfit was broken up. Wow! But then all of them came with us into the 474, new regiment. Well, let‟s walk ourselves through Anzio though. I mean um. The battle itself - after the first group had come in. The Marines had come in. Some of them had been captured. What was the next step for you personally? What were you doing? Well when I arrived from the hospital, they were pretty well into these spots. (50:19) Alright, we jumped over the hospital part. How did you end up in the hospital? Pneumonia. And then I had an operation on my nose. I know that because we talked about it. But I want to go back then in terms of - what happened when you actually diagnosed - you were in a battle. I passed out. Okay. So, you were in battle and you passed out. Yeah. �And you passed out. I passed out twice. And so somebody came along and took you back to the aid station. Oh yeah, yeah. And that was when they diagnosed you with pneumonia. Right. No, no. They did at the first aid station. Then when I got down to the bottom there another aid station and the doctor looked at me there and the doctor looked at me there and he said, “Oh yeah, he’s got pneumonia, get him to hell out of here.” So I ended up on an ambulance and was in the hospital the next thing I knew. And they found out something about your nose as well. Seventy five percentage stoppage in both nostrils. You don‟t know why - you just developed it or....? Well I probably got hit on my nose in football or someplace. Oh, oh, okay. But when I woke up I knew it felt like it. So how long were you in the hospital? About 30 days. And then what happened after that? Went to Anzio. (51:35) But you were transferred out of there and Anzio had already been taken? Yup. Okay, so now you are coming into a secure area. And you arrived there and regrouped with your.... �Yeah, I arrived at night, so our company had quarters way back from the line really and they had a nice warm fire going in the fireplace of the house that they took over, so I slept there that night and then the next day they took me up to the front line. And what was your first day on the front line like? Quiet. Pat Harrison who had become an officer, Canadian, told me that “I am not going to send you out there right away Harold because you don’t know where to go.” So, he spent a day with me showing me where our in and outs were at and where the gates that we could get through, and the patrol when you took it out, and how to be quiet. And of course you are going to blacken face and arms before you go out there, because they have pretty good eye sight some of them. Well the first patrol I took out, he was with me. So, we got almost to the road, which is about that much higher than the ground around us, and they started firing at us. Well I laid down flat and I could see those doggone tracers going over my head. And I said, “Pat what are we going to do?” And he said, “Don’t get excited, this is kind of normal.” And I said, “Oh, is it?” And he said, “Did you bring some grenades?” And, I said, “I got 3-4, yes?” And he said, “Well how far can you throw?” I says, “Far enough to go on the other side of that road?” “Well get throwing them,” he says. So, then I threw a couple and we heard some screams and hollers and the firing stopped over there. So, he said, “Well they are taking off, so we might as well go back.” So, that was my first night out there. So, your mission, if you will, was to go out and find out where the Germans were and to engage the Germans? (53:53) Yeah, yeah, and to take prisoners really, so we could get information from them. So primarily, you were out there to try to take prisoners. Yeah, really, yeah. And this blackened face, this was burnt cork? Burnt cork, yeah, yeah. Now over time, the Germans started - you started to get rumors back that the Germans had reacted to these ...... Well they had captured one of couple of, even one of our officers. But of course, he was blackened to. But, that is where that thing came from. So the Germans started calling you what? The Black Devils. �Uh huh, and as I understand it some of your guys came up with a kind of interesting - the classical one from the GI‟s of course in Europe of course was “Kilroy was here”. But you guys kind of had a unique twist on that, and what was that? They used to leave like a message on a burned out tank, or a sticker on a burned out helmet. Yeah, a sticker. “The worst is yet to come.” I have to think every once in a while. That‟s alright. That‟s alright. That‟s alright. I understand. Germans prisoners? Did you actually capture any Yes. So, what happened? Tell me about that. Well, 2 of them had wandered away from their patrol group and we were in a gully and they came down through that gully and I jumped up and says, “Don’t make a noise. Don’t make a sound. If you make a sound, your dead.” So, I said, “Now you come. Follow this man that I am pointing to. You follow him, and don’t make any noise.” Well I got him back to camp alright so. What was their ----So you caught them by surprise? Oh yeah. So they didn‟t try to shoot you. (55:55) No, no. Their gun was slung over their shoulder yet. So, I said “Don’t make a move.” So when they go them back, they were then interrogated Yup. Were you ever part of the interrogations? No, we had a special guy for that. I think I might have said that he was from Norway and he spoke fluent German, and he came to the states, so they got him in our Army and he ended up in our outfit and in fact he went back there and married a gal in Norway, after the war was over. You mentioned earlier that he was very effective. Oh yeah. So, what kind of - well maybe you weren‟t privy to this, but what kind of information were you getting from these Germans? What were they telling you? �Where their groups were stationed at. Where their artillery was coming from, and we could practically tell that when it was fired. But, how many are in your group there? Do you have any reserves in back out you? Anything that he could pump out them. And he could make them talk. And then the information would be looked at and then decide, „okay you guys are going to check out this, and you guys are going to check out that, or you are going to take this out.‟ So, what were you doing immediately after this incident. You were just going on patrols on a regular basis? Oh yeah, unless they actually really wanted some more prisoners. Because sometimes he wouldn’t have anything to do - our interrogator. But, they were good soldiers, too. These Germans. (57:39) These were the actual German army. They were not the SS. These were not the old and feeble. The young ones that we started see towards of the war. Yeah, yeah. Regular German army. Yup. So this period of time you are going out and finding prisoners and what not. So what happened next? Did this go on for months or weeks? It went on for weeks like that really. And then where did you go from there? Rome. Ah. It was probably a good 20 miles anyway from where we were at. But there was the little town of Artina and another town where my friend got killed. Well, I don‟t want to jump too quickly here. Where was Ray while you were moving along through here? He had been in the hospital just before we pushed of from Anzio, but I didn’t know that. He had had jaundice. And when we got to Artina and we had taken that, we come down and got rid of the guys that were hurt. But then I heard somebody say, “Well you know 6 companies come under artillery attack over on Belmontone town.” And he said, “One guy was killed and the other was wounded pretty bad.” And I thought, “oh my gosh”. And they said, “That one guy just got out of the hospital, too.” And right away I knew who it was. But I never did see him. In fact I thought that his parents had brought him home to Flint and when we went back for that tour in 1984. We went out to the cemeteries. And they gave us a list of our people that were buried there. And I was going over that list when I was on the bus. “Betty”, I says, “Ray is buried here!” “What?” “There is his name”. So instead of going to the little talk they were going to give to us there, we started hunting, well guys that worked there couldn’t speak �any English. But, I showed him that name, “Oh, oh, oh” He says, and he took right to his grave and I was pleased because there was trees there and he could have shade a good part of the time. Where the rest of those were right out in the blasting sun. So, I felt better about it, but I really had thought that he had been taken home. You were part of a group that were the first ones into Rome. Yes, sure were. Well, I can‟t experience that, so please describe that to me. What was that like? (1:00:28) Well we entered at a certain gate area and then started for the river and the closer we got the more people there were along the streets. “Yay American, yay, American. Have a drink!” But we had to keep going because we had a job to do, but people just thought that is was wonderful that we were there. Now, I‟m trying to get a picture here. You were marching down the center, and people were just starting to come out and they are getting louder and louder and the celebration and all of that. Yah, yah. You are still having to move forward and there are people handing you stuff and what not. So how many men were in your group there walking through? Approximately, I am not looking for exact numbers. Well, my whole platoon was there that day and most of the company was too. So there was probably maybe 40-50 of us in one group. And then there were other groups coming after us. But we knew what our mission was, it was the bridges. But, actually when I got to the bridge where we were going to and I looked up and there was a German running way across the other side. But the bridge was still intact. So, lets backtrack. Your mission was to secure those 7 bridges because you thought that it was going to be destroyed. And so when you go there you saw the last vestiges of the Germans running away. Yah, we were chasing them so fast, I guess, that they just didn’t... they were getting out of there. But we had about almost 2 weeks in Rome, and in that time, I would walk around the river. And, one day a well dressed gentleman stopped me, spoke English. Wanted to know if he could have a little visit with me. Asked me if I was American, I said “Yes ,I am”. So we sat down and had a good talk. His son had been in the Italian Army. Of course they were all through and he was back home living with his family with his wife and little 6 year old girl. But he said, “How long are you going to be here”, and I said, “I really don’t know. They tell me how long I’m going to be here.” But he said, “Well could you come over to my place. It is just a couple of blocks off the river really.” So, went over one day and they welcomed me and I met the whole family and had a good visit with them. Finally, I says, “Well, what was your job here? What did you do?” He said, “I worked in the Hall of Justice. So he knew pretty much what was �going on, but he says, “Now, before you go, I want you to come over here and we will have a party, a dinner.” I says, “Well when is that, I don’t think we are going to be here long.” He says, “Well, how about the day after tomorrow.” I says, “Okay, if I can get away, I will be over.” So, I went over and they had a dinner. Spaghetti and bread. Nothing on the Spaghetti, just plain Spaghetti and bread. And, as soon as we finished, I thanked them and says, “Well, that was very nice.” “Well, now wait a minute. Don’t get excited,” he says. “I have been saving something all during the war. So he went down in the basement and he brought up a can of peaches about that big around and about that high. And he says, “I have been saving this all during the war for something special. Now this is it.” Well, I thought that was pretty nice. Actually, I stayed over night with them one night, and had my own room. I got on the feather tick bed and I suck down about that far. And is said, “Wow, I haven’t had anything this soft ever.” Because I had been used to sleeping on the ground and in the fox hole. But they were nice people. Now, I understand that you were friends with the cook. Around that time. (1:04:27) Oh yeah. This was in Norway. Oh, okay. This was in Norway, because we were only there 2 weeks in Rome and then we went to Lake Albano, which is where the cooks home was, right on the water there. So we had a 2 week rest there. So, where did you go from Rome then? We were getting ready for Southern France. And we had got some more recruits in. So, we... Now these recruits that are coming in now, who are these guys? Well, guys that had basic training I guess. These were not special force? No, no. Okay, these are just ....okay. But, we gave them some amphibious training in the ocean, while we had them there, because we were right on the ocean practically. But some of them worked out all right and others thought this was a hoax. But they learned in a hurry that there wasn’t any hoax, that it was the real thing. But Southern France wasn’t too bad really. Well, what was your mission there? The 2 islands off of the coast had to be taken before the main invasion came in, and again here we went in by destroyer and rubber boats and made the invasion. Had hardly any trouble really. �But there were Germans...? They were on there, they were on there, yes. So, there was a fire fight, there was a ......okay. Yup, yup. And there was several casualties, but not too bad. (1:06:11) What about the weather? Because we think of the invasion of Normandy that the weather was so bad and we had to delay and everything. So did you run into that stuff at all? It was summer time there. Oh, okay. So, as soon as we cleared those islands, they brought us back on shore and then we started going south liberating these little towns. The Germans were on the run anyway at that time. Who was in charge of this operation at the top? Well, I think that it was still part of Clark’s. But by then, Fredericks had become a General and he came in with a bunch of guys and dropped them not too far from the main landing area. So we had that cleared. And then I don’t know exactly where they went from there, because it was our group that was clearing all of these little towns out. But there were hardly and Germans left around and we ended up just outside of Nice, France, and a little town of Biot Abbé. And that was we were deactivated at. And that was not an easy moment for you guys. (1:07:30) No, no. Because one morning they called everybody out to line up in formation. They had all of out there all lined up where we were supposed to be and then they said that the Canadians were going to be moved out. So, they said, “Canadians move out.” And then when they did, then they told us to close ranks and nobody moved. Nobody moved. Because we felt like brothers, you know, to these guys by then. And we were going to lose them. But the older ones really were sent to England and became instructors there because they were getting a lot of recruits over in England for the main invasion. And the recruits that we picked up along the way, they were sent to regular Army Units wherever they might be. That also happened to out outfit. That we had a lot of recruits that didn’t have much training really, but the ones that still had the wings, the paratroopers. Part of those were sent to the Bulge, which was in the Bulge at that time - 82nd Airborne and the 101st Airborne was looking for paratroopers and some of ours was sent to the 101st because they were going to be dropped into Holland. Where did you go? To form this new unit. To form the new [4]74th. I was asked to stay in and help with that. �So, what was your specific job? What were you supposed to be doing? (1:09:28) Well, when we go these new recruits, I was an acting First Sergeant for one of the companies. Wasn’t my own company, but when I had that done, I came back to my own company. I was second in command of the platoon. Was a technical sergeant then. So, what was your mission from there? Well, that was when we got these guys recruited and we went into Germany. Okay. We went in at Aachen, I remember when we went in at Aachen. You walked in? Yup, yup. What did you find? Well we were to hunt along this quarter that Patton had gone through, because he goes through like greased lightened and he leaves a lot of the Nazis along on the sides. Well, some of the guys were real nasty, but that is the ones we had to look for and find and get and then get them to a prison, prisoner of war camp. (1:10:29) So, were yourself and your group capturing prisoners along the way? Yeah, yeah. What were the state of the prisoners that you were getting? You talked earlier of German Army people. What were you finding as you were going into Germany? Well, some of the older guys, I think, were glad to be captured, and some of the younger ones thought that they were still, ah, hot stuff. Then you had to use a little strain on them. But you are talking about the actual fighting? The action? Yeah, yeah. And they finally, they either stand up or ....how do they surrender by the way? Do they just stick there hands up in the air, or wave a flag, or.....? �Well, when they see us coming they dropped their gun and some of them will start to run, but if we fire a shot over their head, they stopped. But were you finding as you moved into Germany less and less of a quality fighting man? Tell us about that. Well, well, like I say these older guys, I’m sure felt that they wished that war was over with because they had been in it even longer than we had so, but a lot of them were ready to lay down their guns and go to a prisoner of war camp for awhile. So, once you captured them they were then.... Taken to a camp. Somebody took them to a camp. You were still going on, you were moving forward. Yup, yup. So where did you end up? Close to Nuremberg. Wasn’t in there, but close to it. Then they pulled us back and sent us to Northern France, just outside of Cherbourg, that big port there. But we made a tent city out of it and trained these recruits a little more, so we figured that they could do things that we would like them to do. We are running out of time here, but I want to make sure that we get back to this. What was the Champagne Campaign? Why did they call it the Champagne Campaign? (1:12:28) Well because you could get Champagne along the way any place that you wanted it. I guess. Really. So you are moving through a village, so they wait until you are taken out... That was wine country there. But you also mention about the lack of water. Yeah, at times we were told that we couldn’t .... well that was we was in our way into Rome really. “Don’t drink the water,” we were told so. And if they didn’t have time ...they put a lister bag up for us with chemicals in it to make it right, but that didn’t happen when you were on the run. So you were actually drinking wine along the way. Sometime, sometimes. �Now, at some point - we are going to have to continue this on at a later date because there just so much more to go - but you end up actually in Norway. When you first started out you were supposed to go into Norway and you never made it to Norway. Now you are in Norway. What were you doing in Norway? (1:13:30) Gathering up the Germans. There was about 300,000 Germans up there and they all had to be gathered up and brought to a place where we disclosed [?] them and stripped them down and took everything away from the except their clothes. Put them on a ship and send them back to Germany. So your job was basically to control this huge group of German prisoners - make sure that they don‟t have any weapons or anything like that. Yup, that’s right. And then get them processed to go back to Germany. Yup, yup. And, but the Germans have all of those warehouses. Talk about those warehouses. Well they had them stacked full of food and wine. In fact when we were in Norway, even well the first 3 graders of the non-coms got a 3 bottle deal of wine of champagne each week, and you can imagine what the officers had. But, meanwhile while all of this food and wine were at the warehouses for the occupying Germans, what about the Norwegians. They were going in for it. No I mean before, in other words they didn‟t have an access there. They didn‟t have food. They were........ Oh, not until we got there, and then they were able to start getting stuff. Now you had an actual example of meeting up with a Norwegian man. Talk about that. Well, as I told you he was a retired sea captain, he told me. And he spoke good English. He had about a 14 year old daughter and a 12 year old boy I’d say and his wife. But she could not speak English at all, where the kids could because it was required subject at that time. And, so any time I’d go, I would take them something that the cook would give me to give to me and when ever she would see me coming, she would just break out in tears. She knew I had something for her that they hadn’t had in years. What were you bringing her? (1:15:44) �Well, sugar, ah, like the Crisco stuff that they never had seen before. Maybe sugar. Hadn’t seen any sugar in a long time. So really, the basics that they would need to kind of make their meal. Yup, yup, that’s right. And a.... That‟s actually a lot better then bringing her a ham or a chicken, because all of that stuff can be used or other things. Oh yeah. Even popcorn they hadn’t seen in years, and the cook he had some popcorn and he says, “Give them some of that.” Well I took it and they popped it and thought that that was just wonderful. And I even took some real butter along to put on it. Oh my gosh, wow. So when was it that you heard that the war in Europe was over with. Close to Nuremberg. Okay, so you already new before you went in Norway. Yup, yup. Was there any thought that you might have to go to Japan? Uh, yes. But, I wasn’t letting that bother me because I had been through enough all ready and I was glad that I didn’t accept that commission, because if that had happened, I know where I would have been. So you were actually offered a commission that would have sent you to the Pacific. Yes, yes I was, yup, yup. And you figured well that‟s enough. So, you wind up in Norway - Norway is where you find out about V-J day. Was that where you were when you ........ Oh yes, yes. Okay, so now you know the war is over with. Yup, we knew it was over. And you got a chance to go home. In fact I had me whole platoon go into town and try to find something to eat or drink and they stayed out too late, and I got called in the next morning by the captain. And he says, “You are an awfully good man �Harold, but I really can’t blame you for what you did last night,”, and he says, “you guys deserved a little break, so we will just forget this. But on the way home, when we left Norway, he gave me a commendation. And I couldn’t believe how great he was in saying what I did and how much I meant to him for what I did, so. So, where did you arrive in the states? (1:18:05) New York. Oh, man! We come into New York and I thought - most of our guys were down below gambling, rolling dice or shooting craps or whatever - I says I’m going up, I had never seen that Statue or Liberty. We went right by it. And while I am standing there looking at it, my captain came up and he says. I figured I’d see you here Harold and he says. You were one of my best men that I had. Well, I said, “Thank you sir.” But he was a nice guy. He had been a teacher at college, too. Be he originally was a lieutenant in another regiment, but I ended up in his company in the 474th and, but he really gave a good recommendation. What was the......, I know that this is difficult and a long time ago, but what was the feeling of seeing that Statue of Liberty? I had tears in my eyes. That’s how I felt. I’m back home safe. Here I am and what I’ve been through, I’ve got to thank the Lord that he brought me through all of this. I’m a Christian. I‟ve got 2 more questions for you, and these are the tough ones. You finally get back home. Did you arrive by train, when you got home? I did. Was the family there to meet you? Betty was there. I had to arrive in Detroit from New York. And she was there waiting for me. You‟re in uniform. Yeah, I am. And you get off the train and there she is. (1:19:51) Yup. What was that like? �In heaven. Well, I had a bag of stuff that I brought home of souvenir type things, so I says set in the back there and I will show you these and tried to get in the car and the door was locked. So, there was a garage right there and the guy says. You left your key in the other door. So, then I got the other key and got in. But then she says, “You want to drive.” And I says, “No way! Not down these streets of Detroit. Although, I did help drive the truck a lot of the times because my driver would go to sleep on me. I says, “Pull it over”. I says, “Get on the other side”. So I would drive the 6x6 hauling the guys in the back of it. And I enjoyed it really. Now, let me get this straight. You didn‟t want to drive in Detroit because it was too dangerous. Well those cars were going like this you know. And I love to drive. I love to drive. One more. How do you feel your military experience shaped the person you are today? (1:21:16) It had a lot to do with it. It had a lot to do with it. I knew how to take orders and I knew how to give orders. I knew how to behave when I had to behave and I respected my officers and they all respected me because of the way I acted. Well sir, I want to thank you very much for taking the time. I want to thank John Friends as well, who brought you here. This has been a remarkable interview and I feel very honored that you have sat down and had a chance to talk to me. Well I appreciate it. Thank you for your kind words. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SibleyH0757V Title A name given to the resource Sibley, Harold (Interview transcript and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sibley, Harold Description An account of the resource Harold Sibley was born in Grand Lake, Michigan in 1921. After graduating from high school, he tried to enlist in the Navy Air Corps, but was rejected due to his eyesight. Later on, he was drafted into the Army and eventually volunteered for the First Special Force, the predecessor to the Green Berets. Harold was a mortar man for the special force and was sent to the Aleutian Islands, Anzio, Southern France, Rome, Nuremburg and many other places throughout Western Europe. He was in Norway processing German prisoners of war when the war ended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-06-27 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/acdce66941a993ce3acd73e48ad4a4fe.mp4 cadf13decba268e399ee5e4264e9d604 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a14c71f53b96f3540bf056019028927.pdf e4f32c1b9d267e0672902e6fd1099677 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Tom Sibley Length of interview: 01:22:52:00 Pre-Enlistment (0:00:09:00)  Born in Muskegon, Michigan in May, 1945 (0:00:09:00)  His father had a couple of kids before Sibley and was working in Muskegon at a defense factory, both of which made him exempt from the draft, although Sibley did have a couple of uncles who served (0:00:17:00)  Grew up in Muskegon and graduated from Muskegon Catholic Central in 1963 before attending Muskegon Community College (0:01:00:00)  Got a basketball scholarship from Northern Arizona University-Flagstaff and graduated in January, 1968 with a major in Psychology and a minor in Sociology (0:01:09:00)  After he graduated, he knew he was going to be drafted because while he was in school, he had an exemption from the draft (0:02:02:00)  After graduation, he thought about the Peace Corps, applied, and was accepted (0:02:14:00) o Had to a make a decision because a man from the Peace Corps was talking to him and the training for the location he would be sent, Afghanistan, was in Colorado and he would have to report in a week or two (0:02:26:00) o Sibley agonized over the decision because joining the Peace Corps sounded like a positive things but on the other hand, if he went to the Peace Corps, he could still be drafted and that was a long time to be tied up and in the end, he decided not to join the Peace Corps (0:02:47:00)  Went home to Muskegon and worked for a few months at the employment bureau while he waited until he got his orders to report (0:03:10:00)  Received his orders in May 1968 and reported down to Detroit for a physical before a good sized group of men from Muskegon were bused down to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for basic training (0:03:24:00)  One of his professors at Northern Arizona, Byron Fox, was quasi anti-Vietnam war who presented the information and let the students decide what they ought to believe (0:03:58:00) o Sibley had a lot of questions about whether Vietnam made any sense or not, even when he was in college, and even at Northern Arizona, there were a couple of anti-War demonstrations and possibly a small group of SDS (Students for a Democratic Society), although Sibley fell more in the middle of the discussion (0:04:31:00)  His prior views on the war was one of the reasons it was difficult to decide to let himself get drafted, because at the time, if someone had a college degree, they could teach because there was a shortage of teachers (0:05:27:00) �  o Someone at one of the local parochial schools offered him a teaching position, which also would have given him a deferment, but at the time, Sibley did not feel too ambivalently enough to do something just to avoid the draft (0:05:43:00) “Allowed” himself to be drafted and in the back of his mind, he thought that since he had a college degree, he might get a decent job since he did not want to get into a position of killing people because he went to Catholic schools his whole life, which taught him not to kill people (0:06:10:00) There was some sense of patriotism, although at the time, he had friends who opposed the war and fought against the draft board and although none of his good friends were drafted but they all went through the process of being CO’s (Conscientious objectors) (0:06:54:00) o Although a small percentage of guys were drafted, a much larger group was affected, so in a big way, all the guys were Vietnam veterans (0:07:55:00) Training (0:09:03:00)  His basic training was at Fort Knox, Kentucky (0:09:03:00)  Because he was an athlete, the physical part was relatively easy and he was number two in his company in PT, with a score of 196 out of 200 max (0:09:09:00)  He had a college degree and had just turned 23, while most of the other men were younger, around 19 and while most of the men in his platoon were from Muskegon, but he did not know them because they were younger than him, although he did know a fellow grad whom he bunked with (0:09:33:00)  Their instructors were not too high on trying to prepare the men for the war directly, but more of general PT and basic weapons, as well as Army discipline and trying to sort out who they were and where they would go (0:10:05:00)  Sibley was not “gung-ho”, although when he went in, the drill instructor chose him to act as the liaison between the DI and the platoon because Sibley was a college grad and was older and was athletic (0:10:36:00) o Although he did the PT, his heart was not into ordering the other guys to get up early to run or staying up late to prepare for inspection and so Sibley rebelled a little against that, whereas he would do it, but he would not order others to do it and soon he was down to squad leader and soon, someone else was squad leader (0:11:05:00) o He was not interested in taking leadership, although he had opportunities to do so (0:11:44:00)  Basic training lasted 8 weeks, after which he went to his Advanced Individual Training (AIT) and received his orders (0:12:04:00) o Receiving his orders was one of the low points of his life because his orders were infantry training at Fort Polk, Louisiana and he remembers calling his mother and being depressed before going to Fort Polk (0:12:20:00)  Above the gates leading into Fort Polk and all along the sides was a sign reading “‘Tigerland’, Combat Infantrymen for Vietnam” (0:13:11:00) o All the new recruits went to a large building where the base commander gave a speech and showed a video rationalizing why the United States was in Vietnam and after the film, the commander said that all the men were going to Vietnam and most, due to the film and speech, gave a cheer (0:13:28:00) �          o When going into mess hall, the soldiers counted off by fives, saying “Cong Killer 1, Sergeant”, “Cong Killer 2, Sergeant” . . . (0:14:21:00) Did not have conflict with the other guys in training because they were busy every day and he does not remember having political arguments with the others, partly because he felt ambivalence inside him (0:14:40:00) Went to the base chapel and said that he did not think he could kill anyone and whether he had any alternatives, saying he would give 10 years of service to get out of being an infantryman (0:15:12:00) o The man in the chapel listened and simply said that Sibley had to do the job and just because he did not want to fight did not mean the army would not give him another job (0:15:31:00) Arrived at Fort Polk with other men from Fort Knox whom he had grown to know well (0:15:50:00) The army said some men, Sibley included, would have a little bit of different training on some different weapons, mortars and they would be designated 11 Charlie, with 11 Bravo being light weapon infantry and 11 Charlie being mortars (0:15:57:00) o This somewhat upset Sibley because he had to leave some of the men he knew best (0:16:18:00) o Most of their training was together with the infantry, although some was different weapons training with the mortars (0:16:28:00) Only town he remembers that was close to Fort Polk was Leesville, although the fort might have been around Baton Rouge and he remembers going into Leesville only one time (0:16:55:00) Area around the fort was swampy and being the middle of summer, it was hot, both of which served as preparation for Vietnam, along with several fairly realistic Vietnamese villages the Army had constructed (0:17:15:00) Most of the cadre were Vietnam veterans and guys that Sibley respected and who were career soldiers and were fair, consistent, do-it-themselves (0:17:31:00) o Sibley does not remember having any problems with the cadre in his doing this or doing that, such as when he would go into the mess hall, he would say “Cong Swiller” as a compromise because he was not ready to say “Cong Killer” (0:18:00:00) Like basic training, AIT lasted about 8 weeks after which the men received their orders (0:18:46:00) o Sibley received orders for Vietnam and a 30 day leave, which ended in October, and he remembers standing at the Muskegon County Airport with a groups heading to Oakland with him and think that being an infantryman, there was a good chance he might not be coming back, at least in the shape he was in then, and he remembers because he was the oldest, being the first to walk out to the plane (0:19:02:00) Plane took them to Oakland, which had a large center for processing soldiers, where they received all their equipment for Vietnam (0:19:59:00) The night before going to Vietnam, he snuck out of the barracks, and knowing what would happen the next day, snuck to a bar in San Francisco while thinking, “What are they going to do, send me to Vietnam?” (0:20:16:00) � o At the bar, he told people he was going to Vietnam, but no one believed him and he snuck back into the base when it was getting light (0:20:51:00) Flew in a contracted passenger plane to Vietnam, on which he talked with the other soldiers and though about his life (0:21:17:00) Vietnam (0:21:46:00)  One of the first impressions he had of Vietnam was, when walking off the plane, how hot and muggy it was (0:21:46:00)  Flew into Long Binh and stayed in a replacement company for a couple of days before being processed again and told what division and location he would report to (0:22:02:00)  Had all his gear in duffel bag, and the Army threw it onto a C-130, which flew to one place and left some guys off and ended up in Pleiku (0:22:22:00) o When he got off the plane, the duffel bag with all his equipment was gone; someone had stolen it (0:22:39:00)  Did not arrive in Pleiku until the evening and he and several others replacements where picked up by a truck that drove right through the middle of Pleiku, which at the time was small, to get to Camp Enari, the 4th Infantry Division base camp (0:22:55:00) o They had not eaten that day, so they went to the mess hall and another man, who looked like he had just come out of the bush, was going into the mess hall to get something to eat but the mess hall servers tell him he is not getting anything and they have a large argument with the man (0:23:44:00)  Was in a little replacement unit and while in the barracks, he talked with the men on his left and right, both of whose job were to take care of dead bodies, which made Sibley wonder if he was getting a message (0:24:27:00)  Ordered to his particular battalion, the 3rd of the 12th Infantry, but remembers that before he went, they lined up in a little formation and someone asked whether anyone knew how to type, after which Sibley said he could and the man said nothing further (0:25:02:00)  The 3rd of the 12th was outside Dak To at the time, so they took a truck from Pleiku to Dak To, specifically to a base outside of Dak To with helicopters and were helicoptered to Hill 1338, named so because the Army would name hill based on their elevations, and Hill 1338 was one of the highest elevations in the area (0:25:37:00)  Hill 1338 was fairly secure because the Army had been there for a while and there was even artillery on it, both of which made Sibley assume that Hill 1338 was the battalion commander’s hill (0:26:14:00) o First hill he went to and was where he was introduced to his mortar platoon because his company was on the hill and the guys in the mortar platoon showed him what to do, although he came in by himself and the others were counting down the days until they left (0:26:35:00)  There were beautiful sunsets on the hill and he would sit outside his bunker and the first sunset made an impression on him (0:27:06:00)  Was told he would either be a mortar man or carry an M16, depending on what they needed and when he got to Hill 1338, they needed mortars, so he went into the mortar platoon (0:27:27:00) o His platoon’s job was to support an infantry platoon when they went out on ambushes and search and destroy missions (0:27:43:00) �     At that time, body count was the philosophy; see how many they could kill and Sibley did not know the overall philosophy or big picture at the time and he had a more small picture view; he was with the other guys and they had a job to do (0:28:04:00) Used 81 mm mortars at the time and they would typically operate from a hill (0:28:33:00) o They would set up the mortars on the hill and run their patrols off the hill and they did not carry the mortars into the bush (0:28:57:00) o Provided security for the hill at night by setting the mortars to defend the perimeter but also to assist any units in the field (0:29:10:00) Remembers humping the mortar on time, right before Christmas when they had to carry not only the mortar and base plate, but also their personal supplies in a rucksack, as well as shells for the mortar (0:29:39:00) o Walked the mortar uphill right before Christmas because there was a cease-fire at Christmas 1968 and the men did not seem worried at the time (0:30:14:00) o Was hot, the men where sweating, people were struggling and over time, they started dropping parts of the mortar on the side of the trail, although no one got on them about it and they walked up to where they were camping before going back to get the other parts (0:30:40:00) If they were at a place for a month, that was a long time and they traveled around quite a bit (0:31:31:00) There were campaigns but he did not know the big picture; he was told what to do and he did it (0:31:42:00) Daily Life (0:32:01:00)  Daily was monotonous and normally filled with filling sandbags but they were busy and he does not remember ever being bored (0:32:01:00)  The other guys were a decent group and they would fill sandbags and prepare their defenses and they could improve their living situation by building a bunker to sleep in, which was better than sleeping under their poncho liners because at night, night it would get cool and the soldiers only cover was a poncho (0:32:15:00)  Camps did not come under fire often and it was usually mortar fire (0:33:02:00) o They had air support and one time, after receiving mortar fire, jets came out of nowhere for support and when they bombed the position, it was a morale boost (0:33:50:00) o The guys who had fired the mortar where probably not there or had gone into their bunkers but when the jets came over a hill, they did a spin, which acted like a morale boost to have that kind of support quickly available (0:34:30:00)  They were in contact with the units in the field, who would tell them what was going on and one time, a squad in the field reported that the mortars had killed the enemy, and the others cheered (0:35:07:00) o Sibley did not cheer because he did not feel good that they had killed the enemy; he had no problem doing his job because the enemy were trying to kill him and his buddies but he could not get to the point that he was happy about killing others (0:35:37:00) o Still carried some ambivalence with him although it did not affect the duty he had to do (0:36:02:00) �          Very informal relations when he arrived, mostly person to person (0:36:21:00) Did not get any extra training when he got to Vietnam, because he was in a replacement area only for a couple of days for processing and it was up to the battalion whether or not they would receive extra training and their training was done informally on the hill (0:36:41:00) Losing his duffel bag did not seem to be a problem and although he was worried about it because he was responsible for it, no one seemed to care and they just issued him new equipment in Vietnam (0:37:25:00) In general, they were well supplied and out in the field, they usually received one hot meal a day along with their C-Rations (0:37:46:00) o Usually they tried to helicopter in hot meal at night, although it was usually SOS [(Shit on a Shingle), not steak and eggs (0:37:54:00) o Once they were established on a hill, then they could bring in a hot meal; other than that, they ate C-Rations (0:38:23:00) One time when they got hungry, there was not enough food, not even C-Rations and all the men talked about food, which was the big thing on their minds, and when they went to bed that night, the soldiers were talking about when they got home, where to get the best food (0:38:30:00) o The next day or so, they received more C-Rations and as a result of the experience, one time when they had the opportunity to get some C-Rations and store them, they went and stole a box of C-Rations, although they got in a little trouble for doing it (0:39:05:00) Another time, they were in an area where, for some reason, they were short of water and they were getting thirsty, although there was a little bit of rain because they would try to catch and drink the rainwater (0:39:41:00) o They were rationing the water for a while and although it was only for a couple of days, it still made a big impression (0:40:04:00) o It was a supply issue, which he remembers only happening once, and there was a stream nearby and they ended up sending people there to get water (0:40:14:00) Everybody in the unit took a lot of pills and he does not remember people getting sick (0:40:39:00) o Everyone carried mosquito repellant, which the Army issued (0:41:05:00) Nobody ever asked him to buy any marijuana or gave him any, although, there were a few people in the platoons that would go out on patrols who were smoking marijuana (0:41:35:00) o Smoking was not real prevalent, especially in the mortar platoon, but became more so once the unit was in base camp (0:41:53:00) They would get beer at times, which they could order with along with pop, when they were on the hill, although they took a chance because if they moved, they had to carry it with them, so they only ordered small amounts (0:42:06:00) They eventually had what was called a “stand-down”, when they came out of their area, which the Army made it seem like a reward (0:42:48:00) o They had a new deployment planned for after the stand-down but when they came into the base camp, there was a band playing (0:43:06:00) o Did not get to the base camp until later in the day and they had a steak dinner and beer (0:43:23:00) �      o The unit was a little out of control and he remembers hearing that they were such a problem, the Army sent them out early and one night, when he was trying to find his way back to the barracks, he ended up sleeping in the back of an ambulance truck (0:43:37:00) Every so often, someone from HQ would come out to the hill and say that they had some R&R and if someone had been there for a specific amount of time, then they were eligible (0:44:21:00) o Some R&R was more popular than others and there were options and the person would ask, “anyone want Bangkok, anyone want Hong Kong, anyone want Taiwan, anyone want Australia” and guys would take them and whoever had the most time in got first choice (0:44:30:00) o One time, there was one left for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and Sibley took it, saying he would go anywhere, anytime, if he could go somewhere (0:44:52:00) o Went to Kuala Lumpur and that was an experience in itself because One day he was on his hill and the next day he was on a commercial airline with a stewardess (0:45:04:00)  Bused into Kuala Lumpur from the airport and he was freed to do whatever he wanted (0:45:27:00)  Did some touring and goofed around, including going to a rubber plantation and seeing a very interesting circus, where man would drink a bowl of goldfish then regurgitate them (0:45:33:00) o Trip was about five days and then he was back in Vietnam (0:46:42:00) He had very little contact with Vietnamese people (0:47:03:00) o There were some on the base camp that did the menial jobs in the camp and the times he was in base camp there was some contact (0:47:05:00) o When they were on hills, most of the people they dealt with where Montagnards, native tribesmen (0:47:25:00) o There Vietnamese in the town of Pleiku and the other towns but out from the towns, along the main roads, were villages of other ethnic groups, most of whom aligned with the American soldiers and although the soldiers had some contact with the villagers, they could not speak to one another (0:47:37:00) Before going over, he heard stories about soldiers being involved in killing civilians and not knowing who their enemy was and one of his biggest fears was what would he do in a situation like that and what would he do if he saw one of his buddies killing an unarmed person or torturing them; thankfully it never happened (0:48:16:00) Their enemy was the North Vietnamese Army (NVA), which made it our army against their army and a lot cleaner for him and his group because their was no question who their enemy was; made it a lot easier for Sibley (0:48:53:00) While he was there, no one in the mortar platoon was killed, although Sibley did get a little sliver in his back, which he still has because the doctors told him it would go out by itself (0:49:31:00) When he got into base camp and was assigned to his unit, they asked who could type and Sibley said he could because if a unit was in the field for 6 months or more, their company clerk left and the commanders had to chose someone to replace him (0:49:52:00) �     So, their company clerk left and the commanders were looking for a someone new and the would take someone from the company who had been in the combat for 6 months or more and make them the clerk and they chose Sibley to be the new clerk (0:50:09:00) Came into base camp as the company clerk, although he still had guard duty and sometimes he would go out around the base camp on ambush patrol; the first ambush patrol he was on was while he was the clerk in base camp and he hoped that no one would walk down the trail (0:50:28:00) As company clerk, he would process in newly arrived soldiers and one time, a soldier named Willings was assigned to mortars (0:51:12:00) o He talked with Willings about how he was Sibley’s replacement and he told Willings to say “hi” to several men and to take some stuff to them and about a week later, the hill he had come from received a sapper attack (0:51:26:00)  Knew that that area was a place the NVA did not want the Americans to be in because other times while they on that hill, platoons would get hit (0:51:59:00)  One platoon got hit bad and they had to leave some men behind and the men in the mortar platoon could see the attack and were listening on the radio to the mass confusion and eventually ended up supporting the beleaguered platoon (0:52:17:00)  All day fighting and at night, they managed to get some of the men out (0:52:50:00)  This was another moment for Sibley because the morning before the patrol, a Catholic priest came out and gave a service and kneeling down in the service was a sergeant who had trained him at Fort Polk (0:52:57:00)  This sergeant was in the platoon that went out and later in the day, when they had managed to helicopter some of the platoon back to the hill, Sibley went down and saw that one of the men who had been hit badly was the sergeant (0:53:35:00) o Willings lost both of his legs in a sapper attack on their base, and some of the other men in the mortar platoon were killed or wounded (0:54:39:00) Did not spend real long as the company clerk because he was getting back problems and eventually he went to the medic but they could not do a lot for the back pain, which continued getting worse (0:55:20:00) o He did a lot of lifting and one time, a little Vietnamese lady was in the company mess tent trying to lift a large pot of water to make drinks and Sibley said he would help and when he lifted the pot, it irritated his back (0:55:39:00) o Doctors thought he was trying to get out of Vietnam, which was not the case, but the doctors did not know that and finally, they sent him to the 71st Evacuation Hospital on the other side of Pleiku, who admitted him, continued checking him and eventually noticed numbness in his foot and pains up and down his leg (0:56:20:00) Was sent to Japan and after the doctors tested him there, they administered to him right away because of the possibility of nerve damage in his leg and he had surgery there and had some contact with the other guys in the unit (0:56:57:00) �         Someone he knew from Muskegon eventually interviewed him and when asked where he wanted to go from there, Sibley said back to Vietnam, but the interviewer said that he was not going back to Vietnam (0:57:25:00) o Sibley thought it was funny because he did not want to go back to Vietnam and now he was ambivalent and thought, maybe he should go back there (0:57:41:00) o Had a physical profile as far as lifting (0:57:56:00) Did not have much longer to go and when the Army asked where he would like to go, he said somewhere in the northeast because he had never been to the northeast, so they assigned him to Fort Dix, New Jersey (0:58:01:00) Came home and his mom picked him up from the airport because he had some leave time (0:58:18:00) The hospital plane was Australian and it had Australian nurses on it and the men were strapped in and could not move and even when Sibley asked to move because of his back pain, they said no (0:58:39:00) When he was in Japan, all the injured were in a line waiting and he remembers talking to the guy next to him, who was from Cleveland, Ohio and the man talked about how he and his buddies were dealing with Viet Cong and some of the men he was with were killed and some others managed to capture some Viet Cong, one of whom was a woman, and the soldier described very graphically how he and his buddies killed her (0:59:00:00) When he got to Fort Dix, Sibley was assigned the job of being a guard at the stockade because of his weapons training but he said that he would not carry a weapon and he talked with some people and he must have talked to the right person, because they changed his MOS (1:00:44:00) They changed his MOS to Psychological Specialist because of his degree and although he still worked in the stockade, he interviewed soldiers being ordered into the stockade, most of whom were from New York City (1:01:08:00) o Slightly infamous because of the anti-war demonstrations, including demonstrations outside of the major bases, including Fort Dix and there were antiwar protestors inside the stockade that were resisting while they were in the military (1:01:41:00) Eventually, the Army transferred him to Fort Monmouth, which people told him it was the “country-club” of the army (1:02:20:00) o The food was decent and Sibley played tennis at night and was on the basketball team (1:02:35:00) o Worked in a psych clinic where he interviewed people that where in a mental health clinic (1:02:46:00) Had a little PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) but he did not realize it at the time and a couple of strange occurrences helped back up his prognosis (1:03:04:00) o When he was on the basketball team, a guy gave him an elbow and Sibley told him not to do it again; the man bummed Sibley again and Sibley punched him in the mouth in the middle of the basketball game (1:03:25:00) o Another time, the staff at the mental health clinic were talking and Sibley started crying and he could not stop; he did not know what triggered the incident (1:03:40:00) o Both incidents made him ask what was going on and when he cried, the others gave him space (1:04:17:00) �  With a month to go in his tour, he was promoted to E-5 (1:05:01:00) Does not think anyone offered him the opportunity to re-up (1:05:27:00) Post-Military (1:06:19:00)  Did as little as possible when he got out of the Army, which was another indication of his mental state (1:06:19:00) o He grew a beard and signed up for unemployment in Muskegon (1:06:23:00)  Took a trip out east (1:06:33:00) o Although he still got unemployment benefits, which supported the trip, he stayed at YMCA’s, slept outside, and slept in his car (1:06:37:00) o He did not care much and visited a couple of guys he met at Fort Dix (1:06:48:00)  When he was at Fort Dix, they could take a bus to New York City for the weekend and the USO in NYC would give them a number and tell them to come back later to know what event would be available (1:07:04:00) o Sibley saw a Broadway play, the Giants play, Al Hirt at Carnegie Hall and the Brooklyn Ballet, all cultural things that he never would have seen (1:07:30:00) o USO had a place to stay that was cheap, because he had little pay, only $90, but in NYC, he could have fun without needed a lot of money (1:07:45:00)  His old buddies were going through their situations of avoiding the draft and he could not talk with them about his experiences because of that (1:08:23:00) o However, he does not remember having conflict about the differences and he never resented anybody for not going to Vietnam and he was happy for Carter and his amnesty program (1:08:47:00)  Did not have animosity towards the people who did not go or to the Vietnamese; in fact, he had sympathy for their situation (1:09:06:00)  Never experienced negative responses while going around in uniform mainly because he never went around in his uniform; when he went off-base, he wore civilian clothes, although one time, when he was flying home for leave and sitting in coach on the plane, the stewardess must have noticed his haircut because she came up and told him to come up and sit in First Class (1:09:38:00)  Was in line in the employment bureau and they offered him a job because he had worked there for a couple of months before being drafted and when he asked if he had to take the job, they said that if he did not take the job, then he would not get unemployment benefits (1:10:41:00)  Eventually, using his degree, he applied to the Department of Social Services, where he was hired and an eligibility examiner doing interviews of people applying for public assistance, but having a case load of 180 was not his idea of social work (1:11:32:00)  Had an opportunity and applied for grad school, focusing on social work because he still wanted to help people, and was surprised when he was accepted to the University of Michigan, where he received a master’s degree in social work (1:11:56:00)  When he got out of U-of-M, he had a couple of job opportunities and he took job at the Kent County Juvenile Court as a probation officer, where he worked for twenty-eight years before retirement (1:12:20:00)  He started getting involved in the Vietnam issue again in the early 1990s (1:13:09:00) �      o He had forgot about much of it for years but he would be interested if there was an article or a movie about Vietnam, but never involved in anything (1:13:16:00) o Eventually, he saw in the paper that there was a group doing a Christmas party for some Vietnamese refugees coming to the United States and he contacted the group, a Vietnam veterans' group in Monroe County, Michigan, that was involved with helping Vietnam refugees (1:13:30:00) o Joined the local VVA chapter, which was not involved with helping the refugees, although one day, someone from Bethany Christian Services came in while Sibley was working and they offered for Sibley to take in a couple of unaccompanied Amerasian minors (1:14:06:00)  Sibley was single at the time and he liked his freedom so he declined and Bethany Christian Services said that they had some older kids that did not need a lot of mothering and were independent and Sibley ended up having a 17 year old live with him for a year (1:14:46:00) o Started more getting involved and it went from there, including asking his church to sponsor a family in helping refugees through a program that involved Vietnamese proving they had been in reeducation camps for more than 5 years (1:15:25:00) o As well, he became involved in VVA and tried bringing together the leaders of the refugee program and the VVA (1:15:55:00) In 1995, went back to Vietnam when he saw in the paper that they were offering the opportunity for veterans to go back with international aid and to involved veterans in service projects to reconnect in Vietnam and he has traveled back to Vietnam several times since (1:16:29:00) Eventually got involved with another family through Bethany Christian Services, as well as a woman in a came in Kuala Lumpur, whom he visited in 1995 and wrote letters to and who eventually came to the United States (1:17:04:00) His interaction was with the guys he was serving with and he does not remember having conflicts with individual people and although out in the field, there were some groups, including a black power movement, there were not large groups of minorities in his unit and whoever was a minority was just part of the group and everybody hung together (1:18:17:00) Experience of going back to Vietnam with the civilians was positive because they had the ability to say that it was in the past and to move on (1:19:40:00) Economically, after the United States let, the country was devastated because there was a way of life that feed on the money that was coming in from the war and when the United States left, not only was there conflict between the North and the South, but there was also economic problems (1:19:57:00) o People’s energies went into surviving rather than looking back and he did not sense the feeling the American’s were the bad guys from the Vietnamese and they did not want the American’s there (1:20:44:00) They never visited the area where he had been in; instead, they went mostly along the coast from Hanoi to Hue to Da Nang to Ho Chi Minh City (1:21:26:00) o One of the other men met somebody who was involved in a fight in which the man was shot (1:21:45:00) o He has met Vietnamese in the United States who had been in Pleiku (1:22:04:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SibleyT Title A name given to the resource Sibley, Thomas (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sibley, Thomas Description An account of the resource Tom Sibley was born in 1945 in Muskegon, Michigan. After college, he applied for the Peace Corps and was accepted, but was concerned that he could still be drafted after he got back, and decided not to go. He was drafted in May, 1968, and sent to Vietnam later that year. He served as a mortar crewman in the 4th Infantry Division in the Central Highlands for several months, and then became a company clerk before back problems took him out of the field entirely. He has since returned to Vietnam and been involved with helping Vietnamese refugees in the US. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-22 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4982af0c9e1190fd2cb06dc57de38944.mp4 92de29df4ccbae1ce33ec1b17497bd59 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb9d5d73f2b20e58882e5b2610f66f3d.pdf 12649dc391ab3f2cc3964d6cbee63051 PDF Text Text Miller Siegel (1:05:31) (00:01) Background Information • Miller was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1917 • His father and grandfather were in the jewelry business • He went to Ottawa Hills High School • Miller went to Grand Rapids Junior College for 2 years then the University of Michigan • In 1939 he received his Masters Degree in business administration • He went to work in Chicago for an accounting firm until he was drafted • Miller took the CPA exam in Ann Arbor and while he was there he went on a blind date with the girl he would eventually marry • He got deferred for a couple months because of work • Miller was inducted on February 22nd and sent to Camp Grant (3:36) Training • He was assigned to the Air Corps and sent to Sheppard Field in Texas for basic training • Miller was then accepted to OCS in Miami Beach, Florida • It was miserable because of the hot and humid weather • He then went to Harvard University’s new Statistical Officer School to learn a new system using Statistic Officers, either personnel or operations • Miller served mostly in operations and graduated on September 13th as a 2nd Lieutenant • He was assigned to Fort George Wright in Spokane, Washington • They stopped and got married on the way out to Washington • Miller was assigned to heavy bombers and sent to a base in Casper, Wyoming • They flew missions with the B-17 bomber and his job was to keep track of the planes • In April he was sent to Air Force Strategic Planning • He was sent with a B-25 group to the “boon docks” for a couple weeks and didn’t really do much �• Miller then took a week long leave back home in Grand Rapids, Michigan • When he got back he was sent to Wendover, UT and flew B-17s with the 317th Bomb Group • He was transferred to Sioux City, Iowa and his wife got pregnant • Then Miller went to Mountain Home, Idaho for a month • In January he was sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey (16:32) Deployment • Miller was shipped overseas in a large convoy • The converted freighter broke down and they lost the convoy for a while • They landed at Glasgow, Scotland and then went to England with a B-25 group • His job was to write a report for every mission • They lost a lot of planes in the beginning • He went to Cambridge for some pilot funerals and got to go to London afterwards for 2 days • While in London a German Buzz Bomb hit 4 or 5 blocks away and he fell out of bed • Millers mission reports contained fuel consumption reports, injury and death reports, whether there was flack or fire, how many planes went out, and how many came back • He worked from about 10pm to 4am • Miller stayed there until spring of 1944 • When the weather was bad they would fly to “no ball” targets which, were the launching pads for the V-1 and V-2 ballistic missiles; there was little enemy fire on these missions • They closed the base 10 days before D-Day and on D-Day they flew 3 sets of missions to help out • He then put in for a transfer and got sent to the HQ of Air Force Service Command at Milton-Earnest for 2 weeks (34:15) Eisenhower’s HQ �• Miller got sent to Eisenhower’s HQ and figured out the lend-lease program for the British and the French • It was Miller’s job to try and put a dollar figure on the lend-lease • He stayed with a family in Paris until the war was over • Miller was transferred to the lend-lease office in London • In August of 1945 he was sent to Marseilles to transfer a load of money on a DC-3 • From there he took a week long leave in Cannes • When he got back to London he had some vacation time so he went to Edinburgh, Scotland • Miller had to audit the officers’ books when he got back • He had lots of points built up from the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Bulge, so he asked to go home • Miller boarded the Santa Rosa, a converted passenger ship, and went home (54:56) Back Home • He hadn’t seen his daughter in 18 months • Miller went to Camp Atterbury, Indiana for discharge • While he was overseas he was in little danger and really missed home • Miller went to work with the family’s business until he retired • He felt that being in the Military was a good experience � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SiegelM Title A name given to the resource Siegel, Miller (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Siegel, Miller Description An account of the resource Miller Siegel was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1917. He received a Masters Degree in Business Administration and was drafted shortly after. Miller was assigned to the Air Corps and became an officer in Florida. He then graduated from Harvard University's new Statistical Officer School. Miller was assigned to heavy bombers and did flight reports at a few air fields before being sent overseas. His job in England was to write a report after each mission regarding injuries, deaths, fuel consumption, how many planes were lost, and then send the reports to HQ. After the war Miller was moved to Eisenhower's HQ and had to figure out dollar amounts for the lend-lease program with France and Britain. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army. Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives