817 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21eee94040d833679d76e75554e9ff04.mp4 7adba0e067f043afb57b257e618e315a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5229bb5a1241ff46e0afd36a314a3a0b.pdf 72d7a95f8bea8e5af44519f561ca7bb0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Officer in U. S. Navy Cathy Seifert Length of interview - 02:40:51;02 (00:06) JS: We’re talking today with Cathy Seifert of Kapolei, Hawaii, and you served as an officer in the U.S. Navy for about twenty years here, so why don’t we begin, sort of at the beginning. Where were you born and when? CS: I was born in Os…well, you know, that’s not true. My mother would despair of this but I can never remember whether I was born in St. Mary’s or Blodgett. In Grand Rapids. JS: Grand Rapids, Michigan, then. CS: Grand Rapids. December, 1952. JS: Okay. And what did your family do? CS: My father was in the Army, actually. My mom was a typical ‘50s stay at home wife, at least for about the first seven or eight years of my life. JS: Now did your family move around a lot because your father was in the Army? CS: When I was small. That I can remember, when I was small, we lived in Indiana. Fort Benjamin Harris for a while. One of my brothers was born there. And we lived in Germany. The other brother, the one that’s next to me in age, was born in Germany. But after the Indiana tour, my father moved us to live with my grandparents. My mother’s parents in Alaska, over in Caledonia township. JS: So Alaska Michigan, as opposed to Alaska, Alaska? (01:25) CS: Yes. And then he went on to detached duty at his next duty station and my parents divorced after that. So. We stayed where Mom was from, basically. Moved within a twenty mile radius for quite a while. JS: All right. Now where did you go to high school? CS: I went to high school in Wayland. We moved from my grandparents locality in Caledonia Township to Allegan county when I was in between fourth and fifth grade. JS: Okay. And then, once you graduated from high school, what did you do next? �(01:59) CS: I went to Hope College. For four years, of course. And after I left college, I was kind of at a loose end. I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to do. I’d taken a couple of examinations, Civil Service examination, Foreign Service examinations. Some of them don’t even exist anymore, in that form. And I was up, called up for interviews, a couple of times. The Social Security Administration skimmed the top one percent off the top of the [PACE] list back then. And, while I was waiting, I worked in a family owned business, over in Barry county, which most people around here probably know. Middlevilla. Worked for the family for a couple of years and lived with my grandparents. In Alaska, Michigan. And I got tired, of just waiting, for something to happen. And the next time I was called for an interview, from the PACE examination, for civil service, it was for the Army. At TARCOM, in Detroit. Warren, technically. And I was hired off that interview. That was in late 1976. And I went there, and I came home on weekends. To my grandparents. And still worked at the same place for extra money. Because basic civil service entry level didn’t really pay very much. (03:26) JS: So what kind of work were you doing at that point? CS: I was a supply cataloger. And the work was okay. It wasn’t particularly interesting, after about the first six months. (laughs) There was no mental challenge left. And TARCOM is an unusual installation in military terms, because at the time, in an installation of about 5000 people, because TARCOM was linked to RADCOM, which was the research division side. There were only about 80 military personnel. Everyone else was civil search. And it represented the amalgamations of functions across several different areas in the country. For instance, the supply cataloging function. Which was quite small. Represented the amalgamation of a group in Ohio. And a group in Detroit. And a group from somewhere else. There were people…there were older guys who commuted to Ohio from there. JS: So was the military basically contracting at this point? Sort of post-Vietnam, and… CS: Yes. And the interesting part of it was, it had been so long that they’d hired civil servants, at this particular installation, everybody had been there for a long time. That the contracts were Vietnam-era contracts. So they were written in such a way that if you were drafted it wasn’t breach of contract. But it didn’t say drafted. It said if you went into, if you were in military service, it did not constitute a breach of contract. And they had to hold your job open for you, for five years. Because of that. Well, I wasn’t particularly happy in Detroit. You know. I didn’t grow up in a major urban area. I grew up outside town. And Detroit was a fairly miserable place, unless you have a lot of money and can live in a good area. And a basic entry level civil servant can’t do that. So I started poking around and I found out this little loophole in the contract and I went down and I talked to a Navy recruiter. Never even considered the Army, because I had bad associations with my father’s military service. But I’d always felt safe in a military environment. Living on post, and that kind of thing. I was just old enough that I could remember that. (05:41) JS: Right. �CS: Last time. So I talked to the Navy recruiter. I considered the Air Force. And I was looking at recruiting materials. And at the time, it was in 1977, and my grandfather had died in January, as the result of an accident. Had the accident and went in the hospital. And then had the heart attack while he was in the hospital. And so my grandmother was by herself. She was not happy with the fact that I was considering military service. She did not say “oh, you shouldn’t do that.” She didn’t lecture. The only thing she said to me was “you know you’re not going to be entirely happy if you do this, because if you start moving around, you’re never going to be able to have anything that’s nice.” (laughs) Everything gets battered in moving. So I put it off for a while because I knew she didn’t like it. And then I looked at it again. Went and talked to a recruiter. Basically went through all of the interview process that was done at the recruiting station, for officer personnel. And, I was accepted…I found out that I was accepted about three weeks after my grandmother died. So I never had to tell her. (pause) I was sworn in in February of 1978 But I didn’t have a class date, for Officer school, which was in Newport, Rhode Island. For most people… (07:10) CS: In those days, officer school was split between Rode Island and Pensacola, Florida. The folks who went through Pensacola, were aviation candidates. And selected officer specialty groupings that did a lot of work directly with the aviation community. So, like the intelligence community. Those people went through aviation officer school. Which is what you saw in “Officer and Gentleman,” with the drill instructors that yelled at you. And the dunker tank and all of that. That’s aviation officer candidate school. Officer candidate school in Newport did not have Marine Corp drill instructors. I went in March. I reported on St. Patrick’s Day in March. And they deliberately do not tell you what is going to happen to you. Because they don’t want you to know that there’s actually a set time frame during which they’re going to treat you…I don’t want to say badly, but in a way that people would interpret as badly. (08:17) JS: Now when you’re going out there, are you starting, is there a whole group of you starting at the same time? CS: Yes. JS: All right. CS: Um. And at that time, there were several different ways to do that. In Newport, Rhode island, you had the entire range of military personnel. In those days, there were still four destroyers. In Newport. So you actually still had some active forces there. You also had the Naval War College, so you had very senior officer personnel who were going through classes there. You had Surface Office Warfare School, which was a post-commissioning school that in those days only young men went to, before they were allowed to go to sea. It basically taught them more than you learned in Officer candidate school about rules of the road. And what you were allowed to do. And more of the technical things you needed to know in order to be a ship driver. And then you also had Officer candidate. You also had “navsters,” which were a precommissioning level at the high school level. In the summer, they would be in there. For �several weeks. And you had what we would refer to as “oysters,” Officer Instruction School. Officer Instruction School was for people who already had medical qualifications. Who were direct commissions. They did not have to go through officer candidate school. But they did need instruction on how to wear their uniform and what the hair regulations were, and some sort of minor physical training. (laughs) Officer School, the normal officer candidate school, could run anywhere from 200 people to a thousand, at any one time. (10:05) JS: How many started with you? CS: We were quite small. And the reason was rather unique. The 200th candidate school class went through just before us, so they were still there. When we got there. And there was a class ahead of them that was being commissioned. The 200’s were commissioned in June, and they deliberately left a gap. So that there would be a four week period where there would only be one class on board. Not something they usually did. That was because, traditionally up until that point, the were two classes…two companies…the classes were divided into companies… JS: Right. CS: Quote, military companies. That were associated with each other all the time. Two of the companies were all female. The rest of the companies were all male. During the four week period when we were the only class on board, they integrated the companies. They scrambled all the people. And put…integrated them in teaching sections. They were divided in half so that these…four of the companies usually had the same classes together and the other four companies had classes together. So they took a women’s company in each group and they inserted men into it and took women out of it and out them in other companies, and taught us what the men had been taught up until that point. Which was how to carry weapons properly. And do the manual of arms. For parades and that kind of thing. (11:35) JS: Now what proportion of your class was female? CS: Approximately, one quarter. JS: Okay. Now, is it your understanding that prior to this integration that there were a lot of things that they taught the men that they did not teach the women, or… how did that work? CS: It may have been that women were doing things that women had never been expected to do. In a full duty status. That involved, mainly, handling of weapons. Okay. The real split was after you were commissioned. Because you did not go to warfare qualification schools. You only went to a more limited range of duty assignments. They were planning to change that. That was one of the reasons that they made the shift at that point. They were already planning to integrate the military academies at that point, but they had not done so. JS: Right. �CS: The class before us, the women had had to sign paperwork that indicated that they knew that it was possible in the future they could be assigned to sea duty. We did not. They limited the numbers for a while. Because they knew it would be difficult. They would have to do it in very small numbers. Initially. So they said, okay, it’s not going to be necessary for this class or the next class. We’ve already got enough women in the previous class that we’ll have enough people to experiment with, basically. (12:59) JS: Now how long was the Officer candidate school session? CS: When I went through, it was sixteen weeks. It changes over time. It’s ranged, to my knowledge, while I was in, any place between twelve and sixteen weeks. JS: Do you have a sense of how long they had been admitting women into Officer Training School by the time you got there? CS: Not a really good one. I had a supervisor later who had been in the first group of women that they had sent through to the more remote duty stations. And they did it the same way they did ship integration later. They sent pairs. And they sent the officers first. Before they started amalgamating enlisted women. Mostly because it’s easier to change officer quarter accommodations than it is to change enlisted accommodations. So that you have isolated bathrooms and that kind of thing. JS: Right. You’re not packing large numbers of officers together in a barracks or something like that. (13:59) CS: Right. Right. You might have two. You might have four, that have to share. Depending on where you are. And you can…whether or not, it’s an accurate summation, it was, it was believe there was less of a problem to have them using the same bathroom if they were officers. JS: Okay. CS: A bit silly. But I know it was pre-1972. I’m not sure how long before that it was. JS: Now, in general, when you’re in officer candidate school, how well did they seem to deal with having women candidates? Was it something they were used to? Did things flow pretty naturally? CS: They were fairly used to it. Some of the instructors were female. The company officers, the officer that was in charge, taking care of problems or informational needs, in each of the companies, for the female companies, the company officers were also female. As a matter of fact, they were combined forces because we had two British officers, who were company officers. One male and one female. And so we had comparative information on how other countries handled their service integration. �(15:15) JS: And what do you think morale was like, with the students? Were they looking forward to this? Were they excited about it, or… CS: Mostly. They found it interesting. You know, it was an all-volunteer force. It was enough post-Vietnam that nobody was worried about that kind of thing. Um, some people were more nervous than others. Some people were just miserable at school and wanted it to be over. I remember, during the timeframe when I went through, um, you basically had your classes. And your PT, and everything during the week. And you also stood duty. They taught you that as part of your schooling. So they had watches that you had to stand, so that you learned how you were supposed to handle those and what the penalties were if you didn’t do it properly. We… at that time, we were allowed Saturday and Sunday off. And you had permission to leave the base. And you did not have to wear a uniform, if you were an officer candidate. Unlike enlisted personnel, who when they finally received permission to leave the base while their still in basic schooling, still had to wear their uniforms. And, allowed without supervision. And that was okay. That gave you a break. You could go to MacDonald’s or something like that. And just not worry. If you wanted to, you could get a room in a local hotel and trash the place out instead of keeping it neat. The way you did. You were subject to inspection at any time. There were restrictions on it. But you were told what those were. One of the interesting things that I found about it, and when you first reported, they made sure that on every desk, and in every room, there was a notebook that had a piece of paper in it already, that said “priorities.” And, so that you understood that if you were ill, a medical priority came before anything you had to do as part of Officer Candidate School. They didn’t want people pretending to be tough. And making a situation worse. Sometimes it was a little hard to remember. (17:33) CS: So you had regular classes. Taught you things like celestial navigation that no one ever uses unless they go to sea. And none of the instruments work. Um, basic engineering concepts. Just things that had to do with Navy administration, how the paperwork works. How ranks and so forth are structured. You had regular PT. You had things that changed intermittently, you know… JS: PT is physical training? CS: (shakes head yes). Um hmm. Because you had to be able to pass what in those days were referred to as “JFKs.” Because he was the one that instituted the standard of fitness. If you remember. Everyone should be able to do certain things. So they had a similar set of things for the military and you had to be able to pass your “JFKs.” So it was a mile and… actually that was one of the differences between men and women at that timeframe. Is the number of things you had to do was different. For instance, you had x amount of time to run a particular distance. For men, it was a mile and a half. For women, it was 1.35, in the same amount of time. (18:42) JS: Okay. �CS: So I was always very proud of myself, I was never terribly physically fit, but I managed to do the men’s distance and a little more, in the time we were allotted. We also had mandatory swim training. This was the Navy. JS: Right. CS: So, that’s where I learned to swim. (laughs) And as part of your swim training, you also had particular sessions where you had, they had you jump off from a high level, in uniform. And basically, to be able to take your clothes off to inflate them so they were floatable, in case you didn’t have something like that. And you also had drown-proofing, which was how not to expend energy in the water. So it was to teach you to float upright, without treading water, any more than absolutely necessary. So that you didn’t expend energy doing that. It was interesting. (19:44) JS: So how well did you hold up under all of this kind of training and stuff? CS: I had no problems with classes. I was fairly miserable about some of the specific aspects. I remember actually giving up and calling my mother at one point, just to tell her I was miserable. (laughs) It’ll be over soon. It can’t be over soon enough. I had a compatible person that I shared the room with, fortunately. She and I were the odd balls in the bunch. At that time frame, commissioning programs tended to attract, at least for the women, people from very stable, traditional backgrounds. So two parent families, who’d never had any hardship. Um, that did not apply to me, coming from a divorced family. And after they divorced, my mother worked in a factory. It also didn’t apply to my roommate. She had been married, before she came into the program. And divorced. And she smoked, oh, absolutely unacceptable. Which did not bother me because my mother smoked. So…we were okay when we were together. (20:59) JS: Now were you allowed to smoke in the room? CS: Yes. You were. Back in those days. The buildings didn’t go non-smoking for a very long time. JS: Were the people in your class from all over the country? Did they tend to come from certain areas, or… CS: No. They were from all over the country. JS: And were a lot of them from the Navy families? CS: No, actually. Amazingly enough. Most of the ones from Navy families didn’t happen to go through in my group. Now most of the ones from Navy families, or other military families, did go through officer training candidate school, cause you couldn’t get into the academy. JS: Right. �(21:39) CS: They had all looked at that. Now one of, not my classmates, but the class before me, and she wound up being with me in my first duty station, was from a Navy family, a military family. Her father was a Marine corp colonel, her mother was an Army corp nurse, and her brother went to the Navy academy and was a Navy colonel. So she’s still in. She’s a captain. She’s had command twice. JS: All right. Now, um, what did you do then after you completed officer training school? CS: There’s a selection process that’s run by detailing personnel, assignments personnel, if you’re in the Army. That figure out what to do with groups of people, by their rank. They know what the requirements are, at the very basic level. They might take a minor look at your background, but the assumption is that you know whatever it is that you learned in officer candidate school. A lot of the men, out of my officer candidate school, were assigned to do surface warfare training, because they were going into the surface fleet. There were specialists that went through, I think there was one guy in my class, who had a different…officer designator tells you what subject community you’re in, and there are different communities. So there are warfare communities. There are surface warfare communities. The aviation warfare community. There are special subsets of that. So the special forces guys fall into that group. And then there’s restricted line, as opposed to unrestricted line. (23:14) CS: Restricted line people did things like civil affairs and oceanography and intelligence. A number of things. And then there were staff officers, who were supply corp officers. And people who went into the medical community. Specialists like that. Medical community was handled separately, because they weren’t commissioned as ensigns. They were commissioned at a higher pay grade. But everyone else went through this process where their detailing community, which was in Washington at the time. It’s in Tennessee now, would look at them and say, okay, I have requirements for, in these areas, with these kinds of backgrounds. And they would…you were allowed to fill out a sheet that said where you would be interested in going or what you would be interested in doing, and they would try to take that into account, but then the Navy came first. You got assigned wherever. So in my case, the assignments list was posted and I was going to be going to Naval Facility, Guam. (24:19) CS: Now I’m sitting there and scratching my head, and one of my classmates was a SEAL, prior enlisted who was being commissioned, and he knew what it involved. And he said well, they won’t be able to tell you anything about it because what they do is classified. But you’ll enjoy it. And he was right. I enjoyed the work very much. So much so that I basically stayed in that subset of the community for about twelve years before I did anything else. JS: Okay, now how did they get you up to Guam? CS: Oh, they issue you a plane ticket? JS: Did you fly a commercial plane or fly military aircraft? �CS: That particular case, it was a charter flight. I mean, they flew me from Baltimore. Well, from Newport to Baltimore to the west coast. And then picked up a charter flight that went out to Guam. From there. (25:12) JS: And how did Guam strike you when you got there? What did it look like to you? CS: (smiles) It was fascinating. You know, being from Michigan, here you are on a tropical island for the first time. It was actually kind of a good way to do a non-mainland first duty station. Because you didn’t have to adjust language. You didn’t have to adjust money. But it was still a long long ways from home. It was a totally different climate. I discovered that I adored tropical islands. (laughs) The only thing that truly truly annoyed me about it is that it had nothing but the most wretched bookstore you’ve ever seen in your life. (Laughter) And they didn’t even do much in the way of ordering for you. But back in those days, the Navy exchange system was still associated with a bookstore chain called Stars and Stripes, that didn’t belong to the exchange but that was what they did. They brought books into overseas installations. So, you had some choice there, even though you still couldn’t order. It was a very small installation that I was at. There were only 100 people where I was at. I did enjoy the work. I didn’t particularly respect my boss. Not my immediate boss, but the commanding officer. He was an early select for command. An aviator. Who really wasn’t interested in what we did for a living. He had flown in an electronic collections bird, and that was what he was really interested in. even the junior enlisted folks noticed. I remember that one once said something to their section officer, who was the Navy family officer I mentioned earlier. And she told me about it afterward. She said, Seaman so-and-so looked at me and said, why doesn’t the skipper care about anything we do? (27:12) CS: Now the XO did. He was from a more diverse background in terms of his assignments. And he was actually senior to the CO, and he did care about what was going on. And he didn’t really care about the format you had for giving it to him. He was more interested in whether you knew what was going on and could just tell him. JS: Can you describe what it was that you were doing? CS: To a much greater extent than I used to be able to. They just, in the early ‘90s, they decided to declassify the basic mission statement. So what we did was, when I first went in it was referred to by the acronym SoSys, the Sound Surveillance System. And became the IUSS, the Integrated under Surveillance System, when they added different sensors to it. But basically what it amounted to was passive anti-submarine warfare. So we had sensors in the water that were permanently there. And we listened. Back in those days, “listening” was an accurate verb more so than it became later. Because in the first generation systems, you could still plug a set of sound powered headphones into the machinery and actually listen to the microphones that were in the ocean. But they lost that capability later as the machinery that supported it and displayed the signal in a visual format, so that you could look at it and make a determination of whether you were seeing submarines or something else. It became more computerized. It �passed through more paths. In order to be processed. And you lost the ability to listen to the microphones. (29:02) JS: Now, did you detect much of anything? Could you… CS: Oh, yes. Yes. JS: Could you tell a submarine from a whale and things like that? CS: They taught you how to do that. After I left Officer Candidate School, because of where I was going, I was sent first to a school in Norfolk, which was why I was flying out of Baltimore, to go there. And it was basically the same information they taught to the enlisted personnel, in the school that they went to. Anti-submarine warfare was big business, from…shortly before that point. About five, six years before that point, well, a little longer than that. It existed, they started putting in the sound surveillance system in the early ‘50s. that’s when they started snatching land from people that didn’t want to give it up. And putting the stations there. Running the cables out to sea, with the microphones, with the cable layers. And listening. But it became…there was a lot more emphasis on it from about the mid ‘70s until the early ‘90s. and once the Soviet threat went away, as far as blue water capability, they de-emphasized it extremely rapidly. It was part of the amalgamation of forces as part of the drawdown. (30:23) CS: But we saw a fair amount of activity. Not a lot where we were. The way we pointed wasn’t toward major Soviet activity, although we picked it up in certain areas. What was important was that there were stations in different locations and because you were a passive system rather than an active system, the way that you located things was crosshairs. Between, you know. And it was still a probability area. It was still some place in this area between this area, there is a probability that there is a submarine of this kind because it’s making this kind of noise. (31:06) JS: Now, do you have a sense of what the larger purpose of all of this was? What good did the data actually do us? CS: Actually, we were fairly well informed for junior people, that way. Because at a very junior level, not my first duty station but my second, because I was on Guam for seventeen months and from there I went to Norfolk to the processing center. The next level up. Where they got the information from all their stations in their basin, looked at the data and made a determination as to where they thought submarines were. So you got to watch the reporting process and who it was reported to, and they made sure that it was pounded into your head, with a mallet if necessary, that if you make a decision that says the center of the probability area for what you believe to be a submarine is outside this particular area, if it’s any closer to the U.S. mainland, you are going to push a button to release a message that’s going to cost the United States government a million dollars. Be sure that you know what you’re doing. JS: Okay. �(01:32:18) CS: Because if we pushed that button and said the submarine was this much closer, they would move the entire East Coast strategic bombing force back, away from the East coast farther. So, yeah, their information got used. JS: Did that kind of thing happen? CS: Oh, absolutely. It was always a big deal. You had to call and tell the chain of command, when you were moving, when I say outside a certain area, it was normal for Soviet submarines to patrol within a predictable big ocean area. If they came closer than that, then they were violating their own normal patterns, then, potentially, and there could be a reason to be concerned. JS: How regular a thing was that? CS: Not regular. It might happen once every couple of years. I can remember it happening twice, while I was in Norfolk. JS: And how long did they have you in Norfolk, that first time? (01:33:23) CS: That was twenty seven months. It was an odd length of tour, because it those days…it went up and down. Sometimes it was, you were automatically looked at for accession from the Naval Reserve, which is what you were commissioned in, to the regular Navy, and sometimes you had to apply. At a certain point in your career. And it was between when you were an 02 and an 03, that you did that. Well, because you didn’t have a commitment beyond your original four year commitment, usually, it made your tours a bit odd in length. The second time around. Normal tours aren’t like that, unless you’re extended for some Navy reason. You get assigned somewhere for a year, or twenty four months or thirty six months, especially if you’re married. Or it’s an especially good duty station. Like Pearl. JS: What sort of duty station is Norfolk? It’s a lot of Navy there. CS: The Navy defines things as, in two different parameters. In two different axes. One is inconus/outconus. And the other is preferred/non-preferred. Okay. And within preferred/nonpreferred, there’s preferred shore/non-preferred shore, and preferred sea/non preferred sea. At different times. This changes from time to time, the way they define it. And things drop in and out of it, with categories, so. I’m not in touch with what’s going on with it right now. I haven’t been for a while. But Norfolk was considered preferred shore. Because it was a fairly developed area. It was, there were a lot of different things that you could select from, and stay in the area, if that met the needs of the Navy. Unlike the Air Force, which allowed you to homestead. The Navy discouraged that. (01:35:24) CS: The Air Force allowed it. You simply had to accept the fact that if you were going to homestead at a place where there wasn’t a slot at the next promotion level, for you to be �promoted into, you weren’t going to be promoted, as long as you stayed there. The Navy was transitioning in the early ‘80s out of the mindset that you see in a lot of the old movies, where you had the old salt who was still very junior in terms of responsibility, had been in the Navy for a long time and was the “sea daddy” for the young guys coming in, to make sure they knew what was going on and the way things worked. They were trying to discourage that. They wanted, they wanted progression and skills. And “up or out” for them. So there was a lot of legislation, which also affected the officer community in the early ‘80s. There was an act called DOPMA (The Defense Officer Personnel Management Act of 1980) and it changed the rules. The rules up until that point had been, if you came into the service, in a commissioned status, and you went regular, once you went regular, you didn’t have any time limit on your contract, your first set of four years commitment. Then you had to ask to leave. You were, you were considered at certain points for promotion. But if you made it to 04, you were safe. (01:37:06) JS: Now, what do 03, 04 refer to specifically? CS: The pay grades. It’s easier when you’re talking multi-service type things to use pay grades when you’re talking rather than use ranks because of course the Air Force and Marine Corps and the Army all use a set of ranks that are similar to each other, in the way that they’re verbalized and the Navy’s is different. JS: Yeah. To be a Captain in the Navy is quite different from being a Captain in the Army or the Marines. CS: Oh, absolutely. So, an 01 in the Navy is an ensign. 01 in the other services is a 2nd Lietenant. Of course, if you want to get really screwed up, you started throwing the British Navy in there. (laughs) But, 04, which is a Major in the other services, is a Lt. Commander. If you made it as far as that, then they had to let you stay as far as 20. Once you were, accepted a promotion under the DOPMA Act, if you didn’t hit a gate and you were selected after two opportunities for selection, they could force you out. (01:38:19) JS: Hit a gate? What does that mean? CS: Ah, meet a certain…make it to the time frame where you were going to be considered for promotion to the next rank. I tend to use that term, even though it really isn’t used that much in the U.S. military. It’s a British term. But it amounts to the same thing. You’re considered for promotion at particular lengths of service. Basically, it stays the same but it varies a little bit on a curve, depending on the size of the grouping available at any given time for a consideration. As an example. In 1978 when I was commissioned, the maximum age for commissioning, you had to be before commissioning, before your twenty-sixth birthday. That was the last year, by the way. I was 26 that year. Not until winter. But in ’79, ’80, and I think ’81, they raised the maximum commissioning age to 30, or … I think it was thirty, before, for some of the limited type duty assignments. And one of my friends, who is my age, came in a year later, because they had changed that. Well, that has an effect on how many people you have available in what’s called a ‘year group,” all of the people that were commissioned that fiscal year. So year group �’79 was much larger than year group ’78. So they didn’t consider all of them at the same time, when you start getting into the higher ranks, it hasn’t thinned out as much, so you have more people for consideration. So they may choose to split that group and consider part of them in this year (gestures with hands) and part of them in this year (gestures with hands). For promotion, to the next pay grade. (01:40:38) CS: In my case, it’s almost automatic to make 02, Lt. Junior Grade. It’s two years from your commissioning date. JS: Right. CS: And, when I went through, 3% of the people didn’t make it. Whether it was for some specific reason, medical, performance, very bad performance, not to make 02. Guys in those days would actually react, “my god, I knew a three percent-er.” (laughs) Cause nobody knew somebody that didn’t make it. And, it was almost that high, for promotion to 03. Then they started cutting, because at 03, then people could get out. They didn’t normally, they didn’t have to go over and become regular Navy. So you’d lose a group of people that way, who didn’t go beyond their original commitment. And, but that wasn’t enough people for the number of people, which they’d make a determination based on the number of slots the Navy had at that grade. And in those communities they needed to promote. How many aviators do I need to promote, how many surface warfare guys do I need to promote to 04. And so they had boards, in those days, in Washington, and in Tennessee, now. Who look at your performance. And they rank everybody. Who was eligible. And they’d put everybody in three piles. I never sat on a one but I know people who have and they do it the same way all of the time. These obviously make it. These obviously don’t make it. Okay, let’s talk about these guys, which is the huge amount in the middle. (01:42:00) JS: Now, if you don’t make it, can you still stay in at your current rank? I mean, can you still stay on indefinitely or do they try to push you out? CS: Not indefinitely. That was the change that was made under DOPMA. You could stay, before DOPMA. You could stay after the first look, even after DOPMA. Cause you got two primary looks. When you were actually considered to be in the zone. And they actually looked at you sometimes below the zone, the year before that, and above the zone, the year after that, pre-DOPMA, but once you hit the second look after DOPMA went into effect, they could force you out within six months. (01:42:41) JS: And did you know people who had that happen to them? CS: It happened to me. I was in the general unrestricted aligned community. A lot of the women who were commissioned, most of them as a matter of fact, who weren’t in specialty groups, couldn’t go into warfare community units at that point. You couldn’t become a surface warfare officer or an aviation officer or a submarine officer. But you were still an unrestricted �line officer, meaning you were in the line of secession to command. If there were catastrophes going on. So they would send you to support positions that were defined as needing any unrestricted line officer, because some of the jobs were defined that way. And that’s how you got into integrated undersea warfare, and training commands, and administrative duties, of various kinds. And communications. Because communications officers were not a specialty at that point. And eventually, as we progress and there are more people, more women are being allowed into the academies. They reached a point where they said, okay, we now have a viable pipe that goes into the warfare communities. So do we actually need unrestricted, general unrestricted line officers anymore? And the answer was, well, maybe not. Let’s look. What functions do they perform that are vital to what we are doing. And that’s the way they came out in four groupings. (01:44:20) CS: There was administration, communications, and specialty services, like anti-submarine warfare, and we, on the technical side, anti-submarine warfare and communications, were much smaller than this big group of people who did administrative things. JS: Right. CS: And they said, okay, these are viable, but we need to figure out whether we’re going to change the community to be something else. What size does it need to be. How many people do we need in it, and at what levels. And that’s going to take us a couple of years, cause we have to do it as a study. Cause they talked to the Chief of Communications and Admiral [Kelso] said, okay. This was in the early ‘90s, when the drawdown was happening. (01:45:01) JS: Right. CS: After the (Berlin) Wall fell down. And the Navy, the…all the services were cutting and everybody did it differently. The Air Force just went “Whack,” and got rid of a whole bunch of pilots, all at once. They didn’t let people who were going through [ROTCI], which is one of their training programs, they just didn’t let them go into pilot programs, unless they were superb at what they did. The Marine Corp did it, it all fell at different points, depending on what part of the service you implemented. The Navy did it in very measured fashion, with cuts over five years. But the community I was in had an exemption, because they were trying to figure out what size it was going to be. And what they were going to call it. Eventually, they decided to call it Fleet Support, and it, instead of being a designator for a number for a unit…Surface warfare officers were an 1110. General and restricted line officers were 1100. They were going to transition us to a restricted line community, 1700. And they did that so that the last three or four years I was in, I was a 1700, but they switched it back after I retired, because it didn’t work well, and are doing it differently now. But, at the point that the five years ran out, it was the last year that the Navy was going to make any cuts. And they looked at it and they said, okay…I was already an 05 by then, so retirement eligible, the whole works, they said we’re going to need to cut, I think it was thirty three 05s, and half a dozen 04s, this year, that’s our share for the Navy. So that’s the way things stood, without retirement papers being in. So a whole bunch of �retirement papers went in. And I was in the zone that year. For selection to 06. And I was also in the zone for cutting. JS: Right. (01:47:10) CS: So if I had made 06, on the first look, I would have still been in for another, whatever I decided to stay, three, four years. But I didn’t. And the boards met at the same time, that year. The 06 board and the selective early retirement board. JS: So you got downsized. CS: I got downsized. JS: Okay. Well, let’s back up a bit, off of the bureaucratic angle quite so much. You were based, you go to Guam, you go to Norfolk. Where do you go after that? CS: Japan. JS: All right. And where do they send you in Japan? CS: I was, I worked out of the Naval base in Yokosuka. And I worked with a special operations detachment that was part of the staff. It was really very interesting in a physical environment sense because it was before a lot fo the new structures were built. You got to watch the way the relationship worked between the Japanese forces and the U.S. forces, and the two governments, about which had permission to do. Because the base officially belongs to Japan and they own all the buildings and so they have to agree with what you do with the buildings. I worked with the rest of the operations department…most of the headquarters staff worked in a building, maybe a quarter of a mile inside the front gate. Including the Admiral. But the Operations department worked across the parking lot. In a cave. With the construction on the inside. And it was one of the caves that the Japanese used to protect forces from bombing during World War II. There were lower level of the cave. I think there actually used to be a hospital facility there. That were flooded. And the Command Master Chief, the most senior enlisted person on the staff, had permission to take small groups down, a couple of times a year. If you wanted, he’d take you below on a little tour. So you could see the scorpions in the water. (laughs) Or whatever. (01:49:11) CS: So, I worked for a commander who was a surface warfare qualified gentleman, who had been in Vietnam who had been [Rivereen] forces. Mostly, there were four officers who worked for him. Two women, two men. We traded duties with each other because we had to go TDY on a regular basis. Temporary Duty in another location. So one of us would be there, of each group, and the other one would be away, doing other things. JS: And were you doing similar kinds of work as before? Listening? CS: Yes. �JS: And what was the environment like just to live in, in Japan, at that point? (01:49:53) CS: Fascinating. It really was. I had the best of both worlds because if you were in Yokosuka, you had quarters. Bachelors quarters. And you kept those, while you were gone. So your stuff was there. And while you were away, you actually lived on the Japanese economy. So I lived in what would have been a residence big enough for three or four people, a family, a small family in Japan. But it (looking around), it would fit in this room. The entire thing. So, so I had to live with what was typical Japanese country plumbing at the time. I had a wonderful bath. I had an ofuros, which was kind of cross between a bathtub and a hot tub, the way we understand. It didn’t work the same way. You would fill it up with water and then it had a gas supplied heat to the piping underneath, so it was incredibly hot. And you left that on the whole time so it stayed hot. So it was a soaking tub. And you had a shower head in the wall besides that. Because you cleaned off before you got in the tub. I learned how to do public bathing in Japan because, you can. And it’s isolated by sex, so it’s not expected to be a problem. However the toilet facilities were interesting. Basically, an indoor outhouse. So it was a little addition on the exterior of the building and you accessed it from inside. But it was separate enough that it wasn’t an issue. It was a standard fixture, but it didn’t have plumbing attached. JS: Okay. (01:51:54) CS: It worked just like an outhouse and someone would come in once a year, the landlord had someone come in and pump the thing out. (laughs) So, it was interesting. I had to learn enough Japanese so that I could buy groceries locally. It was very frustrating. You couldn’t buy anything to read. Everything of course was in kanji. Usually traveled by the national line trains, when you could. Except for places where you knew where you were going. Because there are the publicly owned national lines. And then there are lines that are privately owned. They’re in competition. Well, the public lines, because they are publicly owned, nationally owned, have to have the characters that identify the station in both Japanese characters and in English language characters, in romaji. So you could read the station name. JS: Right. (01:52:53) CS: so where the private lines share the station, it’s not an issue. But there were a few stations that were only on that private line, and if you didn’t know where you were, you wouldn’t know where you were or how to get off. The base trained you in how to get around. It was part of intercultural training. It was interesting. They would, they had you for three days when you first reported and they would expose you to various things that you could expect and tell you what not to do. You know, the standard gesture you make with babies. You know, I’ve got your nose (illustrates this). Don’t ever do that in Japan. JS: Okay. �CS: Never never never do that in Japan. It’s obscene. Some mother will lose her cool and call for assistance rather than whack you over the head, like an American mother would with her purse, for doing that to her child. They taught you the difference in physical characteristics. Body language is different in Japan. (Illustrates by pointing back and forth) This is me and you, talking. In the U.S. if you wanted someone to come to you, you would do this. In Japan, that’s only for animals and small children. JS: Okay. (01:54:07) CS: This is for grownups. This is not bye-bye. This is come. (can not see hand motions on video.) JS: In general, how well did the Americans on your base seem to get along with the Japanese? CS: Fairly well. Most of the guys were assigned to ships that came in and out of Yokosuka. They liked the fact that they could out on the town on the [Hunch], which was the main street that had small restaurants and bars on it. Just to have a good time. But most of them adjusted quite well. The stuff that you see in the news occasionally, is, as shocking as it is, is that shocking because it’s so unusual. JS: You mean, like attacks on girls or things like that. CS: (nods head) Yes. The neat thing about Japan in those days, one of the common things that was discussed was, and they’d even tell you in intercultural relations, that a lot of Japanese society in the early ‘80s, cause I got there in ’82, and I left in ’84, were still like the ‘50s, in the United States. One of the things they taught you, and I don’t remember it anymore, was the phrase to yell if anybody bothered you. Because every man in the area would converge and shoo him away. (01:55:25) JS: Now, how long were you based there? CS: A little over two years. I was actually due to rotate in July in ’84 and stayed until November so that they could have an overlap with the person coming behind me. No gap. Interesting. JS: Okay. And where did you go after that? CS: Back to Norfolk, to the exact same place I had left. But to a different job in the organization. So I was doing similar things. And I was there for a little over two years. And then I transferred to Pearl Harbor. JS: Okay. And what was working in Pearl Harbor like? �CS: Oh. Pearl was great. It deteriorated in terms of being a tropical island environment since then. Because urban area, ten lanes of traffic on the freeway. Most people don’t associated that with Oahu, but it wasn’t like that then. The freeway was only four lanes in its busiest location. I lived a ways outside town. (01:56:30) CS: There’s all of the history associated with Pearl. I mean, when I was first stationed there, the Missouri wasn’t there yet. But, because she was still running around…because they’d recommissioned that battleships during that time frame. But you know, got to go look at the Arizona, and climb Diamond Head, and look at the emplacements up there, where the guns were. The bullet holes are still in the building, that Pacific Headquarters is in on the Air Force base. And you can look at them. One of my friends who lives there, Connie, was born there and spent a large amount of her youth there. Her father was an Air Force chaplain. And she ran the local USO facility, for a while, at the airport, and has all these old post cards of where the old facilities are, and World War II pictures of different things that used to happen then. (01:57:28) CS: It was Guam, only it was much better. It smelled a little better. It had a greater variety of vegetation. It had gorgeous beaches everywhere. The traffic was not bad. Then. JS: Better bookstores? CS: Oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, when I was living in Japan, one of the guys who was on the staff, but not in Operations. He was in Intelligence. He used to come to Hawaii four times a year to go to the bookstore at Pearl Ridge Mall. (Laughter) He would buy like five boxes of books and they’d mail them all to him. But yes, definitely better bookstores. (01:58:06) JS: And were you continuing to do the same kind of work that you had been doing? CS: No, actually. I was assigned to the PAC Fleet staff. So the senior operational Navy officer on the island, he was a 4 star…there was another Navy 4 star on the island but he was in charge of the joint command up at Camp Smith, and had Army and Air Force and whatever working for him, and was in charge of a geographical area at the time, as opposed to being in charge of all of the fleet forces in the Pacific Ocean. So I was on his staff. But I was in intelligence. I wasn’t in operations. I had asked for… I tried to figure out a way to describe what I wanted on my duty preference sheet, and I described it as technical intelligence. So my literal minded detail went through and hit on something that was defined as something that was label “technical intelligence” on the Fleet staff. So I wound up there, on a job where I eventually handled the control of what intelligence was disseminated to fleet units, afloat. You know, if you wanted to be added to a message distribution for something, you came in with a message and said...dah dah dah dah. And I would say, okay, or, no, you’re not supposed to have that by policy. And if I said yes, I would just send a message saying okay, and send it to the right people. And the person who had release authority would sign it. That was my Navy 06 that I worked for. (01:59:41) �CS: And, if I said no, I had to add justification paperwork to it. And get the Admiral to sign it. Because you weren’t allowed to say no. Without permission. You had to have a very good reason. So I did that. I handled Intelligence Exchange Conferences, the coordination of them. So any foreign arrangements we had with foreign Navies to share information, usually involved having a conference once or twice a year, to talk about common concerns. JS: Right. (02:00:15) CS: And I would handle those up, for the 06. JS: What countries were involved in that? CS: We, ah, we had formal relationships with Japan, of course. And with Korea. We have mutual defense treaties with both of them. As a matter of fact, five of the seven standing mutual defense treaties that the United States has are in the Pacific. And those are two of them. We also had a regular meeting with Thailand, one of the other formal defense arrangements. And a regular meeting with our Four-eyes allies. Canada, Great Britain and Australia. That was the fun one. (laughs) Everyone spoke English and got into all kinds of mischief. (02:01:05) JS: Was it generally interesting work, relative to what you had been doing, or… CS: I found parts of it more interesting than others. There were things about setting up Intelligence Exchange Conferences that were vastly boring and were basically secretarial work. But you had also had to make the decisions that went with them, which secretaries weren’t allowed to do. Some of it was… I enjoyed the exposure to the Intelligence community. Enough so that I…and because I was in this job, I… the secondary, technical skill that you earned with what I did in passive anti-submarine warfare was also intelligence related, it gave me what was called a sub-specialty, in intelligence. Two of them, one for joint intelligence and one for technical. So I was allowed to list intelligence in a section on my duty preference sheet for things that I would like to do in the future. And I kept myself on that list for a long time and it wound up affecting my final duty assignment, too. (02:02:12) JS: Okay. Now how long were you in Pearl Harbor? CS: Longer than I was supposed to be. We ended up going through a time frame while I was there when they were doing fiddly weird things with the budget and they wound up extending everybody in the Navy where they were for an additional two months, and then there was an additional two months besides that that got added on to me, so I was actually there, instead of thirty six months, I was there almost forty. I was there for thirty nine. I enjoyed myself. JS: So when did you leave there then? CS: I left at the end of April in 1990, and went to California. �JS: And where did they base you there? CS: Naval Facility, Centerville Beach. Which is the same type of duty that I had been doing, but I was an Operations officer rather than someone who was directing the watch. And that base…well, it’s silly to say it’s not there anymore, but it’s not there anymore. Physically, it’s still there but it was decommissioned as a base shortly after I left, three years later. (02:03:12) JS: All right. And as a place to live, did you like it better than Hawaii, or Norfolk, or wherever? CS: I liked it better than Norfolk. Far less than Hawaii. I thought I was going to freeze to death. After I’d been in Hawaii for three years, I’d lost all of my resistance to any kind of cold. Well, believe it or not, the area that I was in was 250 miles north of San Francisco and on the coast. And if it got up to 75 in the summer, it was considered quite warm. I remember in desperation a couple of times just getting in my car and driving inland, or somewhere south for an hour, to warm up. (laughs) JS: Right. CS: It was fairly isolated as a location, for California. Not what you think of as being California at all, because of where it was. It’s up by, uh, I actually lived in Eureka, so Eureka was about half way between Humboldt State and Arcada, and the base was outside a little tourist trap Victorian style town. So I lived in a town that was the biggest thing for a hundred miles around, basically. It was 20,000 people. (laughs) So, and it actually had a mall. It’d had a mall for five years, by the time I got there. A little one, about the size of one wing of Woodland (Mall, in Grand Rapids, Michigan). So it was okay. I had enough shopping there. (02:04:43) CS: I liked the physical environment. We could, we were by Trinity Alps and the state parks all through there. And Redwood National Forest, and the California state parks that are redwoods oriented. We were surrounded by all of this. So it was nice in that respect. It was very difficult for me to swim, which was what I did for my physical training testing every year, that I’d taken up in Hawaii, when it became legal to do that instead of only running. I had to do it at the local community college, which had very limited hours. So, I… it was okay. It wasn’t special. There were things I disliked about the environment a lot. Not about California itself. I wouldn’t go back there. There are things… JS: What… CS: a couple of things that I have bad associations with there. My mother died while I was there, for one thing. JS: And then, from there, where’d you go after that? (02:05:56) �CS: War College. Newport. JS: Back to Newport? CS: Back to Newport. Which granted me my Masters degree. The Navy War College is a degree granting institution. Because, at the time, I don’t know if they still are or not, they kept the same guy in charge there on for quite a while longer than they normally did, until they came up with another Admiral who had a PhD. Who therefore met the requirements to keep the degree granting status. So, I was there for ten months, for school. And had a wonderful time being with classmates, who were, basically, my peers. And from there, I went to Portugal. (02:06:36) JS: All right. And what did they have you doing there? CS: I was the officer in charge of the U.S. unit that supported personnel attached to a native staff. So it was a NATO staff in Lajes, Portugal. Cinciberlant. And the 3 star in charge of Cinciberlant is Portuguese. The deputy, 2 star, is American. And operations officer, a one star, is a Brit. And we also had a couple of German officers on staff. And a couple of Spanish liaison officers. We technically had a French liaison officer, but he was never there, cause it was in an additional duty for him. He was actually an attache’ at the French embassy. JS: Right. (02:07:12) CS: And he was in Lisbon most of the time. That was…that was fun. The unattached people my age, who were sort of my peers, were Brit. So I wound up hanging out with the unattached Brit officers on the staff. One of them is still a friend. She was the nursing sister in charge of the, who worked in the medical support unit. The Americans owned the dentist. The Brits owned the doctor. And nurse. So we were all treated by each other’s medical people. And she retired about five years after that, after she got back to England. And lives in Bath and I’ve visited her a couple of times. JS: Now what kind of work were you doing there? CS: Basic administrative work. Um, I owned the postal clerk, who was a subset of the Air Force Post Office that ran out of the embassy. I owned a small detachment of people that actually belonged to Rota, Spain, one of who was a personnel specialist and two of whom were dispersing people, who made sure we got paid, and who had money so that we could change U.S. money into Portuguese money, rather than keep local bank accounts. In Portuguese money. And lose money all the time. (laughs) (02:08:32) CS: I also owned a couple administrative personnel. A yeoman, a yeoman seaman who kept records. Cut orders, if I needed to send people for specialized medical treatment. To Spain. Where the hospital was. And I owned the dentist and the dental technician. I also had two civilians who worked for me, who were technically Portuguese national, one of them was �actually Scottish, who was married to a Portuguese national. One of them was a housing specialist. She did two things. She ran the Admiral’s quarters. Which we rented for him. And took care of dealing with any maintenance issues, and dealing with the landlord. And she also helped U.S. people coming in find places to live. Because we didn’t have military housing. Everybody lived on the economy and had a special allowance for it. (02:09:26) CS: The other civilian helped with logistics, transporting people’s property in and out. So, and she was, she had worked for the embassy. In South Africa, for a long time. The U.S. embassy. Moved home. Technically, both of my civilians worked for the embassy system. Because the entire group of U.S. support people that were there originally started out as an extension of the embassy staff. Attached to the attache’. And then when they put a NATO staff there, they took the flag billet away. Put it there and some of the people went there. And so they still technically owned my civilians. We didn’t have hiring ability locally. It was a confusing situation because the person who had all the oversight over me was the Deputy, the U.S. 2 star. But technically, I worked for the Admiral in London. For the CINCUSNAV Europe. (02:10:25) JS: Now was it a group who worked together pretty well? CS: Pretty much so. It was interesting when you did Hispanic Heritage while I was there because at one point, my postal clerk’s wife was Mexican. My yeoman was second generation Mexican. So was his wife, high school sweetheart. My personnel-man was Spanish. My DK chief, my dispersing chief, was a Hispanic extraction Pilipino. And my dental clerk’s husband was Portuguese. JS: And could they all talk to each other? CS: Oh, yes. Yes. It was fascinating. Belinda, who was the yeoman’s wife, used to whack him over the head occasionally. His first name was Fidel, by the way. And he had a goony sense of humor so he took advantage of it. Um, he would chatter away and think he was speaking more Portuguese than he was, and she would just go, “you’re not speaking Portuguese, Fidel. You’re speaking in Spanish.” She was learning more of it. As they went along. (02:11:39) CS: And I had radio yeomen who were on the NATO part of the staff, I supported, one who was from South America some place, one who was from Puerto Rico. (laughs) It was very interesting doing Hispanic Heritage day with all those guys there. JS: Right. Okay. Now where did you go after that? CS: I had orders out of there to the Defense Intelligence Agency in Washington. JS: Was that your last assignment? �CS: That was my last assignment. I did not work at DI proper. I worked in the Pentagon in the section that belonged to the joint staff. DI provides all of the intelligence personnel who are part of the joint staff J2. So they don’t count against the limitation on the number of people you can have on the joint staff. The legal limitation. And I worked with those people. So I worked in the Pentagon the whole time. (02:12:27) JS: And what kind of work were you doing there? CS: I did two different things. The first two years I was there, I was the Deputy Division Chief of the group of people who were, oh about, 60/40, sixty percent civilian, forty percent military, who handled response to crisis in intelligence issues, in support of the joint staff. The last year that I was there, I swapped out with one of my Marine Corp compatriots and went from one division to another division. And went to the group that stood watches and directly supported the General on the Operations side, who was also standing watch for crisis situations. So I handled the team of people that had area specialists and subject matter specialists, like guys who belonged to the National Security Agency, who were electronic intelligence emissions specialists. A CIA guy. Service desk officers, who I had a Navy desk officer, and then I had a guy who handled Eur-Asia, and a guy who handled the Pacific area, and a guy who handled Latin America. Specialists, and about a dozen people in a team. (02:13:38) JS: Okay. Then, did you have crises to respond to? CS: Oh, absolutely. During that time frame, there was always a bunch of nasty stuff going on in Africa, that you were keeping track of. You were also…it was post-Desert (Storm), but we were still flying watch over southern and northern… JS: Iraq, right? CS: Right. So there were things that you had to watch about what was going on with the flights. Reasons that you would have to call the J2, or notify the General who was standing the watch on the other side of the wall. There were things to do with monitoring missile launches. Either announced or unannounced. That you had to deal with. And you had drills, about what to do if it were the real thing. Those were interesting. (02:14:30) JS: In general were the people from the different branches of the military, and the civilians, did they work together effectively in these units? CS: Yes. In an environment that joint, they did. When you go back to Navy culture, you are exposed to someone who’s in a part of the Navy that has a lot of community prestige. Say the naval Aviation community. You’ll find guys that had a joint tour that just hated their joint tour. But there was legislation in the late ‘80s, about joint experience being a requirement for promotion to levels beyond a certain point. So they all have to do it, if they want to be promoted. �(02:15:13) JS: Then, over the course of your time in the Navy, did the atmosphere sort of change at all, for what it was like to be a woman in this service there? I mean, did it get easier or did attitudes stay about the same? CS: I don’t know that you would describe it as being easier. There are differences. The ability to go to different types of duty assignments changed. Increased. I remember my first duty station when they were going, on Guam, was when they were first looking at sending women to flight school. And they were taking applicants from active service, also. My commanding officer at the time asked me if I was going to apply. Well, I have corrected eyesight. And I hadn’t been wearing glasses for very long at that point. I didn’t start wearing them until about a year before I went in the service. And he didn’t realize because I was always wearing tinted glasses and my glasses were in fact prescription. And they weren’t taking anybody with eyesight that wasn’t corrected. So that was one thing. Um, I watched as they expanded the number of types of float units that women could be assigned to. Both officers and enlisted. The friend that I mentioned that was one of the first people that I knew that was from a Navy family, who had command twice, she went from our first duty station on Guam to an assignment on a submarine tender. On the east coast. And stayed surface Navy after that. And all of her commands have been in that community. Different types of ships, both times. (02:16:53) CS: Um, it’s far less restrictive than it was, in terms of duty assignments. Attitudes. It was bumpy, for a while. Because of course, no one really expected to have to take in to account what they should of expected to take into account. Which was how do you deal with a force that’s getting pregnant? (laughs) So, they’ve learned to cope with that. And there were some very negative vibes about that. For a while. They had to change all the rules, at one point, about pregnancy discharge. Because at one point, the only time in fact that you could get a pregnancy discharge was if you were pregnant. And then later it became not a cause for discharge. Voluntary or involunatary. (02:17:45) CS: I remember when I was stationed in Pearl, a guy in a restaurant, I had gone some place for lunch in uniform, asking me…there weren’t very many customers in at the time so he was idle, whether I had any problems with authority. And you say, no, if there are people with authority issues, they’ve mostly weeded them out, by the time you have to start dealing with them, except as a very junior officer. But, I noticed a major difference when I took the uniform off. (02:18:25) JS: What do you mean? CS: Much much harder to get things done. Because, eventually, it sank into the culture enough that they didn’t look at the person. They only looked at the uniform. And the rank. So, yes, it made a difference because you had different physical requirements. But it didn’t make the kind of difference it did when I first came in. There were still restrictions, still restrictions. Places you can’t go. There are no women in submarines. And that was really the only thing I would �have been interested in, personally. Would be duty at submarines. Aviation didn’t interested me. Neither did surface warfare. (02:18:59) JS: Now did you have a sense that there were Naval officers, especially when you came in, men, that didn’t really think that women should be there in the first place? CS: In the combat forces? Oh, yeah. It’s still a problem. I think. Some places in the Army. And it’s very hard, to deal with, on a public relations basis. When you have people under attack that is in fact related to the fact that they are women. In areas like the desert. JS: And were you aware of problems like this, sexual harassment and things like that going on? (02:19:30) CS: Yeah. We would talk about it. It was a subject of discussion. Have you ever been sexually harassed? I was surveyed a lot of times, mostly because I respond to them, when they send them to me. And…I never personally felt sexually harassed. But I knew people who did. I just was luckier. JS: Now you were based in California during the point that the Tailhook scandal came out? CS: Um hmm. JS: Now what sort of response was there, on your base, or how did they deal with that? (02:20:12) CS: Oh, that was interesting. Um, we had a junior officer that was a lieutenant, an 03, she had just made it. And she had come from an Aviation unit, even though she was not an aviator. So she had gone to Tailhook one year. And she actually knew the woman who was the prime point of contention. During what was going on. She said very privately, in discussions, that she probably brought it on herself. To a limited extent. No should have still have been no. but her behavior tended to be a bit wild and it led to things it didn’t need to lead to. Also my assistant operations officer…because in California, I was the Operations officer for the base, was a Navy aviator, who was a lieutenant, who had been to Tailhook in the past but had not been to that one. So you would have discussions about what people went into Tailhook expecting. And your basic response from most people who weren;t involved in the actual Tailhook convention, where the problem occurred, was Tailhook started out as a professional association where there were no seniority rules. Okay? (02:21:37) CS: Anybody could say anything to whoever was there. So if you were an 02, a lieutenant AG, you could tell it the way you saw it to the 06 aviators, who were there, who could influence the community. You had…one of the organizers were responsible for the getting of the venue and the details and setting up the professional seminars. Because they had very very good professional seminars associated with Tailhook. And the other thing that you went in expecting was a lot of drinking. Okay. You expected that. You didn’t necessarily expect misbehavior. �You did expect a lot of drinking. I had to certify that none of my subordinates had been in attendance at Tailhook. In writing. To the Navy. So that was… and that went into their records, that said they were not there. There was a service record entry on it. Later, when I was at War College, one of my classmates, who was also not just a classmate of the larger class, but was also in my seminar, was the guy who organized that Tailhook. He told us right up front that that’s who he was. At the meeting. (02:23:04) CS: At the time, he had been on a fast track for flag officer. He had assignment as a CEG. The person who runs all of the aviators afloat on a carrier. That he was about to go to, after this was over with. And, there was an inkling that there was an occurrence. At the conference. Which he knew about, only from having been told. It wasn’t something he witnessed. He had his wife at the conference. A lot of the guys brought their wives to the conference. And I met her, and she said the most serious thing that she endured while she was there was being pinched. And she just turned around and whacked whoever it was. But, um, he went ahead and he’d asked his chain of command if they thought that there’d be a problem if he went ahead, he was supposed to deploy. And they said, no no, go ahead. And he deployed. And then it started. Constant constant interaction with legal. They wound up having to fly him back from sea, assign him to a shore staff. He was never going to make it beyond the level that he was. And it was a terrible burden to them emotionally. To go through this over and over and over, at each level of the investigation. (02:24:26) CS: And I remember running into her, I’d gone into the uniform shop for something. And she was there getting out the car, probably picking something up for him, and I looked at her and she had the funniest look on her face. And I went over to her and said, “Are you all right?” And she said, “yes, it’s over. It’s finally over.” And she just bawled, for half an hour. It was bad that it had that kind of effect on somebody who did nothing wrong. (Wipes away tears. Shakes head) (02:25:07) JS: Something that seemed to kind of have a fallout beyond that in the Navy, were there policy changes or directives coming in, that… CS: Oh, yeah. There was. There was, of course, a much greater emphasis on harassment training. They revamped the program, re-did all of the standard training. Um, I think that the training itself became more effective, um, in that it was pointed…it was slightly modernized. They did a lot of work to try to make it more readily understandable. Pertinent to a different age group coming in. It had negative effects too. Tailhook was a very, a very valuable forum. The aviation community has a couple of things going for it in the Navy. (02:26:09) CS: One of them was the fact that it had this professional consortium where people could learn things together. It was a very, um, I don’t want to call it a bonding experience, it sounds so touchy-feely. But it didn’t make them tighter as a community and better able to trust each other as far as professional judgment, to what they’d been exposed to. It also exposes structural and functional problems to the entire chain of command, from a junior point of view. That was one �of the reasons it was a safe location. Nothing…nothing went out of there. I mean, you could be disrespectful to whoever you wanted to. And have it handled the way it was supposed to be. It was similar to, in a way, the way that the Naval Aviation community handled safety incidents. There’s no blame. You tell everything. So that they can make safety determinations properly on the equipment. That became much more limited, in terms of trust. (02:23:22) JS: Now, from where you were, did you kind of have the impression to the certain degree that there was excess, whatever, that it was in part kind of characteristic of the Aviation community as opposed to the rest of you. Uh, pilots are different people… CS: Pilots are a different bunch of people. You have to have a totally different kind of personality to operate successfully as a pilot. You put pilots in a group and pilots tend to behave like herd animals. JS: Yeah. CS: Submariners tend to be loners. They have to be. You’re in an extremely isolated situation where if you can’t make your own privacy around you, you can’t function for long periods of time underwater or deployed. Aviators also tend to be of an age group. (02:28:18) CS: Young. I had a friend who was an academy grad, who was a surface warfare officer. And in the academy, because your there for four years, in the summer they give you exposure to the different warfare communities, so you can see where you might have aptitude. They really wanted him to go into aviation. He had the reflexes for it, you see. But he didn’t care for the environment. He was not a herd animal. And when he was out, deployed at different points, he always had a plan for when they were going to be in port, for something that he was going to do. And the junior aviators, that was never the case. It was always, well, what’s the group going to do? Well, I’m not going to wait for the group to decide what to do. I’m going to have a plan to see something that I want, that I want to see in this strange area. Or that I want to experience. And if you want to go with me, that’s fine. (laughs) (02:29:24) CS: So, yes. Aviators are different. They tend to be extrovert personalities. In the very clichéd sense of the word. Needing the other people around for interaction. They can function on their own. They have to be able to function on their own, especially if they’re fighter pilots. That’s not how they socialize. When I was a lieutenant, JJ, I think his name was, the first time I was in Norfolk. I went to a class that was developed for the entire Navy in, for junior officers in leadership. Education and leadership training. Well, in Norfolk, it was a combined class of the version for Aviation and the version for everyone else. Cause there were slight differences. But they didn’t have enough people to handle it separately. So they combined the instructors. So I went through, I think at Naval Amphib base, but we had a lot of aviators in that particular class. So at lunch time one day, they put on a tape that was by a flight surgeon, who had been searching the topic for several years. And he had produced this instructional video that was kind of �controversial as far as the aviators were concerned. And these guys, this was their first opportunity to see it. (02:30:52) CS: Well, he had developed a theory that you could predict stress problems, in aviators, soon enough to be able to catch them in a safety related sense, if you watched their behavior patterns. And they, the behavior patterns, varied on a scale, he used 1 to 10. Rated from 0 to 10, but the P3 guys objected to being a zero (laughs) so, he had to change it. But the example he used was P3 guys, you judge a party, excellence, by the quality of the food and wine served, at the party. And he went up a level. And these guys, they judge a party’s excellence by the amount, the quantity of money that was consumed, spent on the party. And then you get to the fighter guys, just short of fighter pilots, the next level up, and that’s by the size of the bar bill. And then you get to the fighter pilots and they judge a party by the size of the damages to the bar. (Laughter) And then he said you get to helicopter pilots and they don’t have parties. (Laughs) So the level of stress goes up throughout. (02:32:20) CS: Really, it’s true. Because pilots have to be able to compartmentalize. And that’s what he was using to predict stress. To fly my plane, is the compartment in the middle. It’s the last one to go. So if you want to predict a safety problem from somebody, you have to look at the other compartments. Are they having family problems? Are they having stress problems in this area? Are they having other problems in their work? What going on with this and this and this… He said, now I’ve had a lot of guys ask me, thinking it would be a good idea if their spouse’s saw this particular film. I want you, before you ask that, to consider if you really want your wife to know that she lives only in a compartment of your life. (02:33:10) JS: You have your twenty-odd years in the Navy and then you eventually get downsized. Where do you go from there? CS: The only place that I ever cried when I left was Pearl Harbor. Every place was interesting but that was the only place that mattered that much to me, and I wanted to try living in Hawaii. It’s very expensive. It’s not easy to do on retired pay. So, it’s not really even possible to do it in any comfortable sense on retired pay plus working at some service job. You know, like McDonald’s or a bookstore, or something. So I knew that I would have to have another income. I have a lot of friends that are still in Hawaii, so I went out and stayed with one of them for six weeks, then moved into an efficiency and applied for positions. And I had figured out that I had enough money at I could stay there for about ten months. And if by then I did not have a job that could pay enough that I could stay, that I could ship my express shipment back to the mainland. I put everything else in storage. (02:34:15) JS: Right. CS: In the D.C. area. I had my car and about 800 pounds of express stuff, clothes and records and books, whatever, and I managed that. I applied for a civil service position in September, and �I got there in July. And the position closed. They called me for an interview in December. Told me in January that if I cleared, I had the job. I cleared in March and went to work for them in April. I had been working for the Census Bureau. That was census year. (02:34:50) CS: A little extra income coming in. And I work in intelligence. JS: So, now you do that as a civilian rather than… CS: (nods head yes.) Um hmm. JS: Now how do ou think your, ah, time in the service wound up affecting you as a person? Or how do you view the world of things? CS: It is very different. You have to learn to think in much wider terms. Both geographically. Issue-wise. In terms of…just in time zones. I mean, that’s one thing that being stationed in the Pacific does for you. If you can’t think in time zones, you can’t figure anything out. Cause you have to talk to D.C. in the morning and Japan in the afternoon. JS: Right. (02:35:28) CS: Um, we change very gradually. You notice at first that it changes what you eat. What you find acceptable. And then you notice that the things that you pay attention to, in the terms of the news, are not the same things that everybody else pays attention to. At home. I cannot talk to my brother about anything but family. I have no relationship to anything in local politics. And I still haven’t developed much of one, though it’s coming back. After being in Hawaii since 2000, so, almost, over eight years now. You pay attention to national elections, you pay attention to what your senator says. What your representative says in terms of international things. (02:36:30) CS: General domestic policy things on tax. You don’t pay attention to anything local, road systems, construction. Whatever. If your single. Now if your married, to tend to be able to take that skill set out and plug it in in a different location because it’s going to affect your children. JS: Right. CS: That stuff to do with the school systems and transportation and that kind of thing. You have different concerns. Portability of skills for your spouse. What’s a new area going to be like that way. So your much more aware of the differences in geographic areas, in terms of what the housing market looks like. In terms of what the job market looks like. (02:37:19) CS: Um. Especially the housing market. Even if your single. Somethings to do with the transportation pattern but not the transportation infrastructure, usually. Costs. I had a guy I was talking to in Hawaii when I was stationed there. I said, “where do you want to go when you �transfer, Ed?” He said, “Norfolk.” I said, why Norfolk? He said, because of the five or six big places that I could be stationed as an intelligence officer, which is what he was, that’s the only one where I can afford to buy a house. (02:37:52) CS: Cause all of the other areas were high cost areas. And he had a family, couple of little kids. You pay attention to different things in the weather. I mean, you start looking at patterns that affect much farther out. Then local weather reporting, it’s much different than when I first went in. You do see things in the satellite patterns in the local area, in regionally. And if you watch the weather channel, you see it. It’s become a skill that the civilian community also has, looking at weather in terms of travel. (02:38:36) JS: Um hmm. CS: But you develop that really quickly in the military, moving around, having to check things like that. The availability…you get very inventive about being able to get things that you can’t find, wherever you are. For a long time, every once in a while I would just go absolutely bonkers. And I would call my sister and say I need you to go to the grocery store and buy me two rings of bologna, freeze them solid for two weeks. Call Federal Express. Find out when the shipment goes out. Put it in a box and deliver it to Federal Express abot an hour before the shipment is going to go out, so they can pack it in dry ice and they can send it to wherever I am and it’ll thaw out just about the time it gets here. (Laughter.) (02:39:20) CS: it’s just like that silly episode of MASH, where they went crazy trying to get some food that they could only get in Chicago. Yes. You could figure out strange things like that, eventually. Of course, if you’re in Aviation and you know someone whose flying from one point to another, that helps. But I’ve never been able to take advantage of that sort of thing. You learn flight patterns. You pick up the habit of having the airline mileage accounts much earlier than most people do, so that you can do something with it. You have the time zone map in your head. I never have succeeded in telling anyone in my family, having anyone learning what time it is, where I am. And that implies, that also includes when I was stationed in Virginia, both in Norfolk and at the Pentagon. And I was in the same time zone as they were. They still could not remember where I was and where they were. (laughs) (02:40:21) CS: My cousin would call me. What time is it? Three o’clock in the morning, Charlie. (Shakes head.) But yes, it does, it changes your priorities too, because you can see wider patterns internationally, than a lot of people who don’t do a lot of traveling, can see. So you worry about different things. JS: Well, it makes for a pretty remarkable story. And thank you for taking the time to tell it to us. CS: Thank you. �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeifertC Title A name given to the resource Seifert, Cathy (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seifert, Cathy Description An account of the resource Cathy Seifert was born in Grand Rapids, MI in 1952. After graduating from Hope College, she entered the civil service in 1976, and then went to the Naval War College for officer training in 1978. She then served as a naval officer in various capacities until retiring in 1999. She served in Hawaii, Guam, Japan, Portugal, Norfolk, and finally at the Pentagon, serving with the Defense Intelligence Agency. She describes her different assignments in detail, and also says a good deal about life in the Navy and issues confronted by women officers during the period in which she served. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-13 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df50b30af2668fb9ce8bde368d2f15bf.mp4 0c639a377775bd52b68f75c64fe1d933 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f4031b0f84ca51404819b73ba46c03b7.pdf a00b8df3317aba2fc5e5b1c13056e5a2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 24:18 Ronald James Seigel United States Air Force; 1979 - ? Air Force Security Specialist (0:00) Personal information • Born in Greenville, MI in 1961 • Joined Air Force in 1979 at age of 18 • Basic training in San Antonio, TX then sent to Kelly Air Force Base, TX for service (1:05) Why joined the service • Seemed like a good idea • Nothing else going on in life • Job as Air Force Security (2:06) Typical day • Would work 3 second shifts and then 24 hours off; then would work 3 third shifts and have 3 days off • Kind of like a civilian job but under military control • Air Force Security o Physical security of different buildings, aircraft, and personnel o Keep people from unauthorized areas, etc. o Carried automatic weapons like M-16s and pistols o Authorized to shoot people if necessary (3:55) Training • Training in weapons • Advanced training which dealt with exotic weapons • Went to an air base defense school where learned how to handle the “big” weapons and tactics (4:27) Most memorable moments (story 1) • Nearby auxiliary base • Provided physical security for a squadron that listened to Latin American radio traffic for intelligence purposes o Cuba, other socialist countries • Down the road there was a nuclear weapon storage facility • He was on duty during the third shift. At 3 am, he and other Air Force Security policemen were in the guard house when heard a huge explosion. Everybody hit the floor; the sound came from by the nuclear facility o Explosion was loud enough to “stunt you out of 20 years growth!” • Turns out, somebody had set off a detonator by accident • Luckily, the detonators and warheads are stored in two separate units (6:06) Most memorable moment (story 2) �• • Doing a walk-around a B-52 airplane B-52 landed on base o Kelly Air Base was a linguistics base, meaning that repaired avionic equipment for all types of military planes o Many planes flew in from all over • This B-52 was uploaded with bombs and weapons and thus Air Force Security was required to walk around the plane continuously while it was on the base • In the middle of the night, Seigel was circling the plane and heard a ticking noise; looked up and saw 4 – 50 caliber machine guns following his movement • Someone had accidentally left the tracking system on in the plane and the guns were tracking Seigel's metal in his gun • The four 50 caliber machine guns were not loaded but still a bit unsettling • Radioed somebody; a cornel came and shut off tracking system • Seigel got to go inside and have a look around! (8:04) Iran hostage incident • Served during peacetime, however, in service when Iran hostage incident occurred • 1982 and the ex-Shah of Iran had cancer; ex-Shah was flown to the US for treatment; landed at Seigel’s base – Kelley Air Force Base, TX • Lots of demonstrations around the base • Everyone was on high alert • Seigel and other men in his unit were authorized to shoot to kill (9:16) If had to go to battle • Felt ready • Did so many exercises that wasn’t nervous • Air Force Security Specialists o They are like the ground troops of the Air Force o Defend the air bases o In Vietnam, never lost an air base because of security specialists ƒ “air police” (10:20) Life in the Air Force • Got a little homesick • Went on leave 2-3 times per year • Food was awesome • Barracks were a lot like college dorm rooms o 2 per room o Community bathroom or suite style living (11:52) Hardest part of training • Mental stress because never knew exactly what was going on until half way through • On the run, not a lot of sleep • Training was geared toward seeing how much pressure/ stress someone could take before breaking • Motivation = patriotism • Protect country �• No regrets about enlisting • Favorite part about experience was the people he met (14:15) Most influential person on the base • Staff Sergeant Hubner o Their squad commander • Good guy, a little nutty o Would go dumpster diving to collect cans for money from the recycling plant (15:30) Relaxation • Stereo wars • One guy would turn up stereo a little bit and then another person would turn up theirs a little bit until the barracks area sounded like a war zone because it was so loud (17:00) Rank • Air? – first class o In army comparison, he was like a corporal (17:29) Impact on life • Before the Air Force, felt like the king of the mountain • Service made him stop and think (18:01) Political stance • Middle of the Cold War when served • Early 1980s, things were tense • Needed to put up a tough front for the rest of the world (18:50) After the service • Got married • Career • Had kids (21:00) Final stories • While in the service, got to see extraordinary planes o F-15, Navy fighter plane o Went at super ballistic speed down runway o Once wheels left the group, pilot tilted it straight up like a rocket and it shot up out of sight • Used to stand on top of the buildings at night and watch planes take off (22:50) Steps to achieve rank • Rank is based on time in service • Promotion depended on 2 things o 1. proficiency (done through testing) o 2. positions available � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeigelR Title A name given to the resource Seigel, Ronald James (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seigel, Ronald James Description An account of the resource Ronald Seigel served in the United States Air Force as an Air Force Security Specialist at the Kelley Air Force Base in Texas starting in 1979. Although technically serving during peacetime, his personal account of his time in the service is very interesting. In this interview, Seigel shares stories from the third shift like hearing a nuclear detonator explode at nearby facility and getting accidentally tracked by a B-52's four 50 caliber machine guns. Also, while at Kelley Air Base, Seigel talks about how he witnessed the arrival of the ex-Shah of Iran who was flown to the base to begin cancer treatment at an area hospital. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carey, Lynda (Interviewer) Belaya, Elena (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military United States. Air Force Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-05-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca02ef3519352edbad4b7448fb6cf672.mp4 ca133a071577631a5c455c213046bc28 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ac26916e5452a6df9974cdda710077f.pdf c7b68142c3bbe73a8de3036cc322b9dd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Peter Senft 1:13:00 Introduction (00:23)         Peter was born on August 27, 1948 in Dallas, Texas. He only lived there a year or two before his family relocated to northern New Jersey. After some additional cross-country travel, the family finally settled in Ridgewood, New Jersey. His father was a textbook publishing executive who traveled a lot for his job. Peter graduated from high school in June 1967. After high school, he attended Marsh Army College in Charleston, South Carolina for one year. He majored in drinking and chasing women. His father brought him home and made him go to Fairleigh Dickinson University in Wayne, New Jersey for another year. His father told him he had to get all A‟s for him to continue to pay for his school and Peter got a B+ average. He then went down to the Army recruiting station and eventually enlisted for a career in intelligence. Peter enlisted in the United States Army in March 1969. He had been paying attention to the conflict in Vietnam so he knew where he was going once he got in the service. (02:45) To get into the intelligence field, he had to take a test prior to going in to see if he qualified for the MOS, which he did. When he enlisted, he was given 90 days before he had to ship out. Military Training (03:09)         Peter went to basic training in June 1969 at Fort Dix, New Jersey. Everything in basic training was geared for Vietnam such as a 20 mile hike that they would do in Vietnam and to shoot their rifle because it would save their life in Vietnam. All of his instructors were Vietnam vets, and most of them were E-6 or above. Adjusting to military life was easy for Peter because his father was a very strict disciplinarian growing up who fought in World War II and emulated General George Patton. (04:56) About 60% of his training company were draftees that just wanted to stay alive in Vietnam so they learned as much as they could. During basic, they never left the base, but once towards the end of training they were able to have visitors on base. Basic training lasted for eight weeks. after basic training Peter was sent to Fort Holabird, Maryland to begin his intelligence training. (06:23) The atmosphere was much more relaxed at this school. It had very little weapons and survival training but more emphasis on his job which was a combat order battle intelligence analyst. �         His job was to analyze the enemy on the battlefield and present that information to the commanding officer. The instructors for this course came from all branches and a Marine captain stood out to Peter as a great guy. They lived in a barracks and went through the normal military protocol such as inspections, but it was much more relaxed. The work was largely classroom, and the course lasted 8-12 weeks. Peter was then volunteered to become a Shake & Bake NCO. Since Peter was second or third in his class, he was told that after the program he would come out as an E-5. They could also be sent all over the world wherever they were needed. All of them were sent to Vietnam. (08:47) The NCO training was very interesting to Peter, because they were able to do things that most soldiers don‟t normally get to do. They had to infiltrate an island that was set up like Vietnam and they had to swim to the island and work out things once there. This program was 16 weeks. His training was completed in May 1970. Along the way, he took some weekend trips home by train while he was still stationed in New Jersey. Peter‟s next stop was Vietnam. Vietnam (10:21)         Prior to being sent to Vietnam, Peter was given a 30 day leave to go home. After his leave, he reported to McChord Air Force Base and boarded a World Airways DC-10 and flew to Alaska, Japan and finally to Bien Hoa, Vietnam. His first impression of Vietnam was that it smelled horrible, it was hot and wet. They landed during the night because he remembers seeing flashes in the clouds and wondering if it was thunder or artillery. The men were put in a hooch and had to wait for two days before they were given their orders. Peter was assigned to S-2, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. (S-2 is the intelligence office of the unit) He was then flown in to Phu Bai and then trucked up to Camp Evans. Once he arrived at Camp Evans, he went through SERTS (Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School) which helped the replacements learn the basics they needed to survive in country. This school lasted for five days. (12:40) During the school they learned how to rappel and they also dealt a little bit with dealing with the locals. The first task that Peter was asked to do was to complete a combat order battle intelligence report. This consisted of several reports that he had to combine into one. When Peter got to his unit, he was the only trained intelligence person in the brigade; he had two E-7‟s above him, a captain and then his CO, Major Andre. (14:12) Ripcord (14:24)  When he was looking over the data and maps, he realized that Firebase Ripcord, which was being held by the 101st Airborne, was surrounded by two fresh NVA divisions at 110 �             to 120% strength. In addition to the two divisions, they also had an artillery regiment and a reinforced sapper unit; which made the enemy numbers around 20,000 men, against a battalion that was at about 60-75% strength. That American unit was the 2/506th, 101st Airborne. In June, Peter started working a 12 hour shift at the brigade operation center manning the S-2 radio. He would call in the requested air support and anything else the men in the field needed. (16:30) The mood in the headquarters was very business like, even when things were bad in the field. On one occasion, Generals Westmoreland and Abrams came in to see how things were going and Peter had to give them an intelligence briefing. Peter also had to brief the Division commander. (18:55) The first week he was in country, he had to go up in a Nighthawk helicopter at night that flew around the wire. That night they saw something in the wire, and the door gunner opened fire with the mini-gun mounted on the chopper. It jammed, and the gunner yelled for Peter‟s M-16 rifle. The gunner lost his balance on a tight bank and he lost the M-16 out the open door and it landed outside the wire. The next day a patrol was sent out and retrieved it for him. (21:28) A week before Ripcord was evacuated, Alpha Company found a Hungarian folding stock AKM modified rifle. Major Andre came in and told Peter that he was going out to Ripcord to pick it up. He flew there on a supply chopper and when it landed at Ripcord he jumped off and ran into the operations center and then run back to the chopper. Only when he returned with the weapon, they helicopter was gone and he had to stay there for a day or two. (22:30) Being on Ripcord sometime around the 15th to the 18th of July, Peter was scared to death and he stayed in the operation center the whole time. It was cramped and hot, but he slept down there and worked the radio a bit; he was brought back the next day. They received 40-50 incoming rounds of mortar fire each day. The impression that he got from the men stationed on Ripcord was that they were going to get the job done. (24:08) There was a lot of drug use, but Peter did not do it because he always wanted to be able to react on a moments notice. He did drink a fair amount when he was not on duty, but it never interfered with his job. (26:25) Peter knows that the drugs and things were around, but he never recalls seeing it. Peter was in country for almost a year, around 40 days shy of the full year. While there he would do briefings, accumulate information from various sources and he worked with the RNS platoon (Reconnaissance Surveillance) going out into the field and showing them what he was looking for intelligence wise with things that they would encounter, such as bunker complexes. (30:43) When the order to evacuate Ripcord came through, Peter thought the political situation dictated the order. Peter‟s impression of General Berry [assistant commander of the division], was a by the book leader who was not well liked. (34:51) General Smith however, understood the different situations that the men would encounter in the field and he usually did the right thing instead of going by the book. (36:06) �               During interrogations of enemy POW‟s, Peter learned that they were a good source of credible information and no torture or mistreatment of any prisoners were done that he witnessed. At the Division level, if they could not get any answers from the prisoners they would go for a cup of coffee and come back fifteen minutes later. The prisoner would then tell them anything they wanted to know. This was probably because of the ARVN soldiers that did something to the prisoners while the Americans were away. Prisoners were usually just ordinary Viet Cong or NVA soldiers. Ripcord was evacuated on the 22-23 of July. After that, Peter worked at Firebase Nancy. It was on the road, nine clicks south of the DMZ. They shared the base with the ARVN‟s that did not go into Laos. (38:38) He was there in spring 1971. Another job that he did was to provide targets for Arc Lights B-52 strikes, flame drops and other aircraft strikes. On one of these flame drops, Peter knew that Americans were in the area and he radioed the unit and instructed them to pop a smoke. Peter saw the smoke and called out that he saw “Goofy Grape” (purple) but the soldier on the ground said that he had popped “Banana” (yellow) so they dropped their explosives on the goofy grape position and killed four or five enemy soldiers. (40:58) During Lam Son 719, they lost a lot of aircraft, most of which were attached through the ARVN units. Peter knew very little about the campaign because they were not that involved in it. While on Firebase Nancy, they brought in 8in SP (Self Propelled) Guns to support Lam Son. They shook the whole base and when they would fire, rats would fall dead from the rafters just from the concussion. (44:05) They would often eat what they called „mystery meat‟ which Peter believes to be water buffalo that were taken with mortars from the base. It was far better than c-rations. About once or twice a year he wakes up having screaming nightmares. He can usually suppress most bad memories and he likes to remember the good times. (47:31) When he had five days left in country, he was so short that he could sit on the edge of a dime and his feet wouldn‟t touch the ground. The only obligation that he had was to be at the 5 o‟clock briefing. He was ordered to go out and get some pigs that Colonel David Grange had shot outside of a firebase. Peter told him that he only had five days left and he didn‟t want to go back out in the field. Colonel Grange ordered him to go out and gave him his helmet, flak jacket and Remington 870 shotgun. He went out and found the three pigs and brought them back and had a great party afterwards. (50:15) On another occasion, they shot a Vietnamese elk and brought it back to base tied underneath the chopper. Peter took his R&R in the spring in Bangkok. After Ripcord, not much happened in country. Peter also came back to the states for a two week leave and he landed on December 26 back home. He had a lot of fun that two weeks and has many stories to tell. It was okay for him to go back to Vietnam afterwards because he looked at it as an incomplete job. (52:39) � He saw very little of the civilian population, but he was also ordered not to have contact with the locals out of Camp Evans. He did do some work with local officials, but not much. Back in the States (53:56)           Peter came home in mid May 1971. He was given a month leave and then returned to Fort Holabird and was assigned to United States Army Intelligence Command. He worked in the security clearance adjudication center. Peter also applied to become a special agent for the United States Army Intelligence, and was accepted. He was sent to Fort Huachuca Arizona for training and was trained as a special agent. He learned about counter-intelligence and how to collect intelligence, conducting interviews both friendly and hostile, how to investigate and pursue different crimes such as sedition or sabotage. After he completed the training, he was assigned to Garden City, Long Island to run background investigations. (55:37) Peter got to Garden City around June and was there for six months when they closed his office in October. He was reassigned to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, New York. When he reported in, he was told that they had too many agents and to go home and they would call him when he was needed. In December, he was called and asked if he would like to learn how to pick locks (DAME; Defense Against Methods of Entry) back at Fort Huachuca in January. He agreed and was sent. After that, he still did not have an assignment so he stayed for another course before being sent to Fort Riley, Kansas where he did some background investigations. Because of his DAME training, he was selected to conduct penetration inspections. For this, he would dress up and try to gain access to restricted areas to test their security. (57:56) One such inspection was at the G2 of the 1st Infantry Division. He was eventually found and detained. While being detained he had to lie face down on the ground spread eagle with a cocked .45 pistol at the back of his head for ten minutes before they verified who he was. For a month, Peter was sent Anacostia Naval Air Station to learn computer security. His instructor there was Grace Hopper, who coined the term „bug‟ for things that go wrong with computers. (59:44) Peter was then transferred to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri where he was involved in an organized crime investigation. The investigation led him to Springfield, Missouri about several organized crime groups fighting over the Fort Leonard Wood area. (1:03:30) After giving his report to the state attorney general‟s office, he kept a copy for himself and it was later discovered, which is a huge breach in military conduct. He was given an Article 15 and he decided to get out of the service. (1:05:10) When he got out of agent school, he extended for six months. He had given it thought about staying in for a career. Civilian Life (1:06:14)  When he got out of the army, Peter got into the publishing business. His father sold textbooks, but Peter got into the advertising and marketing side of the business. He retired about five years ago. �     Now he runs a small antique business that sets up a booth at a flea market twice a week. Looking back at his military service, it reinforced the discipline that he had when he was growing up. Having a plan and staying organized was also a benefit. His service also gave him the survivor mentality that he applied to the jobs that he had when he got out, he always had an out and nothing that his bosses could do to him was as bad as what he already went through in Vietnam. (1:09:44) He doesn‟t have many psychological problems, except for some survivor‟s guilt. In Vietnam, he lost two very good friends, but he hasn‟t been to the memorial wall. After he got home, he began living his life and buried everything about Vietnam. Now, he is very active with his chapter of Vietnam Veterans and is proud of the men he served with. (1:12:45) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SenftP1550V Title A name given to the resource Senft, Peter (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Senft, Peter Description An account of the resource Peter was born August 27, 1948 in Dallas, Texas. He graduated from high school in 1967 and after trying a couple of colleges he eventually went to the United States Army recruiting station and enlisted. He signed up for intelligence and after basic training he went to intelligence school where he learned how to become a combat order battle intelligence analyst. Peter was sent to Vietnam in 1970 and was assigned to S-2, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division. He spent time on Firebase Ripcord and made it home in May 1971. After returning from Vietnam, Peter became a special agent with the United States Army Intelligence before being discharged. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-10 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5efeab1d4c059ad954c6fc3fc808691.mp4 28c198443a28e90d5a1ca9fd2ed93990 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5df9fc3d8cb089a875b32137e66b1c7.pdf 08a687c24f0f46a4a0d057bdb1693714 PDF Text Text Senior, Alan Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Alan Senior Length of Interview: (50:53) Interviewed by: Tony Lupo Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “Here with Alan Senior, February 20, 2003. Served in World War II, Sergeant in the U.S. Army Air Corps, and he was a waist gunner on a B-24. Could you describe when you heard about Pearl Harbor and what effect did it have on you and your family?” I remember very distinctly what I was doing on December 7, 1941. I was riding in a girlfriend’s car. I was sitting in the middle next to her and there was another girl on the other side, and we were just driving around visiting some friends. The announcement came over the radio about the attack and the reaction, as you can imagine, to some juniors in high school was wondering what’s going to happen. What’s going to happen to us as we were of the military age, coming up. It wasn’t any great feeling of despair, shock, and worry. We just knew that we were going to be at war and we were going to win it. It never occurred that anything else could be the outcome. (1:36). Interviewer: “Were you drafted or did you enlist?” I came close to being drafted but I did enlist in the Voluntary Induction Program. I wanted to be a flyer and the only way you could assume that you were going to be in the Air Force was to join the Air Cadets. So I proceeded to take the exams and did that all. I even had my service record with me except— the one part that wasn’t accepted and completed was the weight and the physical. Being a skinny kid at 17 at the time, I only weighed 121 pounds and I had to weigh 128 to get in. Here I was, with the countdown to my 18th birthday coming in May and I couldn’t gain any weight. So, we worked around that. A friend of mine told me about drinking a gallon of water because of “the pint a pound the world around.” We got in my dad’s car, drove to the post office in Buffalo. New York and parked outside on the street— early morning— and I proceeded to drink as much of that gallon of water as I could except for maybe an inch or two on the bottom. I just couldn't hold anymore and told my friend, “Let’s go.” He steered me across the street up to the fourth floor of the federal building and when I got up there— I had been up there several times before trying to get weighed to pass. There was a line stretching down the hall around the corner and I said to my friend that I’ll never make it if I have to stay at the bottom of �that line. So I went up to the Sergeant who knew me by sight— by that time— and he said, “Senior, what are you doing here?” I said, “Sir, I want to get weighed.” He said okay, so he stopped the line, I stepped on the scales, and he asked me how much I was supposed to weigh. I said, “128.” He said, “You just made it. Now get the heck out of here.” You can imagine how happy I was at the time and I have to say, we never passed a gas station on the 14 mile ride home. (4:18). Interviewer: “Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?” Oh. I always wanted to fly. I wanted to be a pilot and I just couldn’t imagine being in the Navy or the Army, I just had to do that. I would not have— I can’t imagine what life would have been if I hadn’t been to the Air Force. Interviewer: “Do you recall your first days in the service and what did it feel like?” There were two of us from— that were going into the Air Force. I was living in a small town of under 6,000 people outside of Buffalo, New York. So my two friends would board the train at night, going to Greensboro, North Carolina where we had basic. That was the last I saw my two friends. They went their way and I went mine. They both became— I think— navigators, and I didn’t quite make it through the Air Cadet program. I became your aerial gunner. So basic training was in June in North Carolina— wasn’t any great hardship. It was quite a change of life for me. I was the only child and there’s not too many accommodations you have to make. The biggest one I had to make in the service was eating the army food because it wasn’t all good, in my opinion. (6:12). Interviewer: “After boot camp and gunnery training where exactly were you stationed? What unit were you attached to?” Well the basic training, and then I went to a couple training schools, and then after that I made it to Laredo, Texas for gunnery. Like the Army does things, I attended the winter in Vermont and the gunnery school in Texas [for] June, July, and August. And it was hot. In fact, I have the clipping that was taken out of the base paper that said, “The mercury skids to refreshing 113.” Talk about gaining weight, I lost what little weight I had then and when I left I weighed 115. It got so hot that we couldn’t fly the airplanes because they couldn’t be serviced. Physical training was canceled, which the Army never does, but it just was miserable. That’s where I learned how to drink iced tea. We were out on the gunnery range and they had a big wash-tub there and they’d throw 100 pound cakes of ice in there and then throw the tea in there. Then you— at break time— you took a canteen cup and elbowed your way up to the wash-tub to get yourself a cold drink. �Interviewer: “What unit were you ultimately attached to?” At that time we were still in the training mode so it wasn't a unit so much. From there we went to Lincoln, Nebraska where we became assigned to a crew. There was a pilot, a co-pilot, and all the other elements and jobs assigned. The way it turned out, I’ve been trained as a nose gunner. Come to find out they had two nose gunners, so they didn’t have any turret guns. [With] my enthusiasm I said, “Well I’ll do that.” I didn’t realize that was going to mean considerably more hours training to use the ball turrets. It’s not claustrophobic for me, it was just the idea of being isolated that bothered me a little bit, but all my work and worry was mitigated when we went to England because the Second Air Division had decided to take out the ball turrets. So, I became a waist gunner which was much better. I knew what was going on as a waist gunner because I could see more than the pilot or anyone else. Although, statistically the waist gunners suffered the highest casualty rate of any position on the airplane, which I didn’t learn until later. It wouldn’t have much difference because you’re there. You’re either going to make it or break it. (9:27). Interviewer: “Do you remember arriving at your base in England and where was this base located?” Well first let me say that we flew overseas. We picked up a brand new B-24 and flew— we picked it up at Topeka, Kansas and flew it to Grenier Field, New Hampshire. Then on our way overseas we flew to Goose Bay, Labrador [and] Bluey Islet, Newfoundland. Then, from there to Iceland— and because of the weather we spent two glorious weeks in Iceland— and flew onto Wales. From Wales we left our airplane, were picked up by transport, and taken to another supply base for a few days. We were assigned to the 446 Bomb Group in Bungie, Norwich which is [in] East Anglia, sort of northeast from London. Interviewer: “Could you describe your living conditions at your base?” It was the usual barracks with the cots. What was different from the barracks in the states was they had three little charcoal stoves and the mattresses, instead of being all one piece, there were three different separate pieces— they were called biscuits and they were always separating while you slept, and you sagged down in between the biscuits. But, it was fine. It wasn’t a hardship at all. I didn’t feel that it was bad. (11:22). Interviewer: “How many missions did you fly, and over what period of time?” We arrived in England in January and we started flying, I suppose, in March. We only flew ten missions and the war ended. I flew— the last mission that the 8th Air Force flew on April 25, 1945 to Salzburg, Germany. It was my second trip— or our second trip to Salzburg, which is in �Southern Germany bordering the Alps. So we flew ten missions from March, no maybe it was February to April 25. We were flying quite regularly, so we would have had our 30 missions in pretty soon if the war had not ended. Interviewer: “Do you remember or could you list specific or typical mission targets or objectives?” Well as the war was winding down, the Air Force was asked to concentrate on transportation; which would be the trains, the synthetic gasoline, and airfields. Really, the way it turned out afterwards, if the United States–– or the Allies–– had concentrated on those targets the war might have ended earlier because the railroads were rebuilt over the next few days and were in operation at night; but the bridges, the airfields, and particularly the oil and the ersatz gasoline. They couldn’t move without the oil, and they produced just as many airplanes when the war was ending as they did at the start of the war–– some 8,000 units–– but they didn’t have enough fuel or enough pilots to fly them. They couldn’t practice, they couldn’t teach anybody to fly the Me262, which was a wonderful airplane–– 100 miles faster than the P-51–– and it was fortunate for us that they didn’t because it would have devastated the bomber train. (14:17). Interviewer: “Could you describe your duties during the mission? For example, what tasks did you perform, what were the problems encountered, and how do you feel your job contributed to your bomb group’s success?” I was trained as an armorer and I was an armored gunner for the group for the crew. A lot of the training for armor was taken over by the ground crew, so my duties didn’t involve the installation of the guns or anything with the gun barrels because the ground crew did that. I did the distributing of the escape packets and the rations that we would use if we had to bail out. Primarily, my biggest job–– the most responsible job–– was arming the bombs, which was the method of putting in arming wires attached to the bomb racks and taking out the cotter pins. In the tail fuse they had a propeller [which] was held in place by a cotter pin. My job was to collect all the cotter pins so I could show the pilot afterwards that I had–– that the bombs were armed when they left the airplane–– then [to] insert the wires. In one particular mission–– the weather was always bad and in this mission it was bad. As we approached 10,000 feet–– we had to go on oxygen at 11,000 [feet]–– I was told to go ahead and arm the bombs, which I did. I [had] just sat down and in about 15 minutes the pilot said, “The mission is off, go put the cotter pins back in.” By that time we’re passing towards 11,000 feet–– it gets a little bit cold and you can’t take the cotter pins out with your gloves on, and you can’t have an oxygen mask there. I was one of those people who–– I required my oxygen before 11,000 feet–– I felt better with that. I put the cotter pins back in, took out the arming wires, and put the carbons back in. Then went back to the waist and sat down and in ten minutes I was told the mission was on again, take the cotter pins out, put the arming wires in. This time it’s close to 11,000 feet and it’s getting colder because this was �still in the wintertime or springtime. I did that, collected my cotter pins and sat down again and it wasn’t ten minutes more and I was told to put the cotter pins back in. By that time the cotter pins looked like a snake–– they were bent out of shape, I couldn't get them in the holes, it was getting cold, and you had to be careful because desperation started to take over and you couldn’t let the crew down. I said, “I’ve got to do this,” and the cotter pins kept dropping on the bomb bay and then I’d have to move over and I couldn’t reach it with one hand, so I’d have to reach it with two and that means propellers start turning. Just by force of will I was able to get those bent cotter pins for the third time back in the tail fuse. What made it difficult was they were having a sort of cluster bombs–– they weren’t large bombs. It might have been 250 pounds or not over 500 pounds and they had the tail fins, and they’re sharp and you have to get your hand down and around. You know, you just say, “I’ve got to do this. There’s no substitution for failure. You gotta do it.” I can’t call up the pilot and say, “Hey, I can’t do this.” You would never think of doing that. It was done and I went back and sat down and at that moment I would have given up a week’s, or better yet, a month’s pay for a pair of three dollar Sears pliers to straighten those things up. We proceeded to turn around and come back to base, and the worst part about it is we didn’t get any mission credit for all that. We just had another nice long airplane ride. (19:33). Interviewer: “Could you tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences of your missions flown over Europe?” Well the one I just described was the main one. There never were any real scary situations. We did lose an engine over a target. We came back on three engines–– I think that was more due to engine malfunction than through enemy action–– and we had to pull out and fly alongside the bomber stream. On our way back it was uneventful. The fighters came over and let us know that they were watching us and taking care of us. Then another time we had a bomb rack for some cluster bombs hit our wing and it was embedded in the wing, so it caused a little drag but didn’t, fortunately, hit an engine so we were alright there. We didn’t have to fall out of the formation there. Looking at the other airplanes and seeing the flak that someone had to go through–– we really were fortunate. The anti-aircraft guns couldn’t fire at everybody, so they’d either pick your group or the group behind you [or] the group ahead of you. The same is true of fighter interceptions. We’d get an alert, the pilots would say, “Okay. Gunners be on alert, the group ahead of us is experiencing fighter attacks.” We’d get all ready and there wouldn’t be any–– they’d hit the group behind us. There were a lot of groups or planes that weren’t so fortunate. I remember seeing the battery of four anti-aircraft guns tracking a B-17 group, I believe it was, about maybe half to three-quarters of a mile flying alongside of us. The last plane in the formation–– there’s this burst of four, fire would be a little closer each time and then we turned for our initial point to make our bomb run, so I never did learn to see what happened–– it didn’t look good because there was the flak which was very heavy. It was more of a danger than fighters were at that time because of the Luftwaffe was beaten except for the Me-262 attacks. A crew member and a bunk member–– not a member of our crew, but another gunner–– he did get �credit for shooting one down that flew in his formation. I wasn’t on that mission but it was one or two days before or after mine. (23:06). Interviewer: “Was there something special you did for good luck?” No. I really don’t believe in those things, but we always went to mass for the Chaplin. It didn’t make any difference to me whether it was Catholic or Protestant. We went and you just tried to be alert and do the best you can. I don’t think luck has something to do with after the event, but in getting ready for it luck plays no part of it. Interviewer: “Were you awarded any medals or citations and if so, how did you get them?” My service time was pretty uneventful. Like many others we got the Air Medal and that was the extent of it. We had it very easy compared to the men who went over in 43 and 42. They were writing the book because they went along there. Our group went over in 40 through 43 and had one of the best safety records of any group. That was partly due to the tight formations we flew and as a tribute to that our group was chosen to lead the Eighth Air Force on D-Day because of bombing accuracy and known for our on-time performances which means that we were formed and ready to go with the proper time and reached the rendezvous point at the proper time. It’s a tribute to the crews, at that time, that we did that. (25:26). Interviewer: “During downtime how often did you or were you able to stay in touch with your family?” Five letters, that was all. Fortunately, I didn’t have any girlfriends and I wasn’t married, and I wasn’t even close to being married, so I didn’t have any girl problems about not hearing from them or any “Dear John” letters. I was just a young boy having a great adventure and I can talk about it and I’m proud of the service–– a lot of it–– and of course it is because I was not hurt. I didn’t suffer, I know some other people did. They don’t want to talk about it and I understand that, but it was a significant part of my life that I remember. I didn’t win the war by any stretch of imagination but–– Interviewer: “What did you think of officers or the fellow soldiers that you served with?” I’d say the Air Force officers were good. One part about it, they were highly trained and therefore well educated and did their jobs well. Not everybody in the crew was a bosom pal of mine. Seems like we were all from different states, but the pilot and I got along very well. We had a relationship after the war until he passed on. One interesting factor about that [is] his grandson never knew his grandfather, so he wanted to learn more about what his grandfather did in the war and he was smart enough to figure out how to do that. He went ahead and on an �internet site, got an email address, and this is luck. He went ahead and emailed this individual over there and wanted to know, “Do you know Alan Senior? He was with Bob Drake’s crew.” And he–– out of all the people he could have had to see his email, was an English man who I’d met in England and he and his wife had come over and visited our house here. He wrote back and he said, “Of course I know Alan Senior. Here’s his address, his telephone number,” and that young man–– Michael Anthony–– I’m his surrogate grandfather. I just recently came back from attending his wedding at Jekyll Island, Georgia and he and the family just treated Joyce and myself like family. He is a wonderful young man, just wonderful. He’s a former Eagle Scout, graduated from Valdosta College in Georgia. The whole family is, you know, they wanted me to tell them about their father. There’s a son and two daughters, so at Jekyll Island–– I’ve previously sent them quite a few pictures–– but it just made me feel good that I could help them connect. (29:36). Interviewer: “How would you perceive the American attitude towards the local civilian population?” In England it was just wonderful. The local people were somewhat standoffish because they’re more conservative than we are, but after a while they liked us. We shared some of our rations with them–– some good times with them. If I’ve got time I’d like to just tell you a story, and it’s another coincidence. When I was in about the tenth grade, the English teacher said we needed to get pen pals. I got a pen pal from a girl from England. So, we corresponded back and forth and I told her that with the war, I might come over to England, you know. I might be over there in the Air Force and the way it came about, I did–– I went to meet her. She lived in Todmorden which is up near Manchester in the industrial section. Her name was Florence Britain, if you can believe that, and we just had a wonderful weekend. I took one of my crew members–– the other waist gunner–– with me and I had somehow gotten a box of Whitman’s chocolate, some lipsticks, and some stockings and took them up there and met Florence and her mother and her father and sister. We had a candlelight dinner because of the blackout and Mrs. Britain the next morning–– we stayed in a pub–– so after breakfast she came by and picked us up and walked us down to the market holding my arm. She introduced us and she said, “This is Florence’s friend from America, Alan.” It was just a wonderful experience. Who would have ever thought that that would have happened, you know. That’s like the lottery odds are now. But, that was another nice experience that I had and I corresponded with them when I got back to the States and then we’d started drifting apart. (32:17). Interviewer: “In general, with your interactions with other British civilians, how did you perceive their attitude towards you and your crewmates?” There was some rivalry there and it was partly our fault. We had, you know, the old expression. We were overpaid, over sexed, over there, that was part of it. A lot of it probably was accidental, �I don’t think any of us tried to do that. I know my friends didn’t. On one of our one or two or three day passes we had in London, you’d go into a pub and there’d always be somebody there wanting to challenge you somewhat. In fact, I got in a taxi–– another crew member and myself–– and there were two Americans in there and they got after us. They said, “You damn guys bombed us,” and named some city and I said, “Well, it’s really hard to tell at 20,000 feet who’s down there and your leaders–– your officers–– should have been in touch with the Allies to tell them ‘Don’t bomb here.’ You folks did a great job, you moved so fast, and we had our orders. We dropped the bombs there as ordered.” Needless to say we were dying to get out of that taxi. I don’t think they really bought my story very well but that’s understandable as well. (34:07). Interviewer: “In addition to some of the stories you’ve told us, could you describe any more memorable stories of events in England during the war?” No. I think that covers it. We were all very happy, of course, when the war ended and then we started to think about going back to the States to be trained as B-29 crewmen to go to the Pacific. Which–– you know–– that’s the way the war is. As we went from–– we got a three day furlough then we reported to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for reassignment. While we were there, of course, they dropped the two atomic bombs, the war ended, and we were dispersed all over the United States. I went to Marshfield, California and had some little job. I was a part of another group–– we safety wired a part on a B-29 engine, you know. It was just a make-work type of thing. Then the point system came along and I argued a little bit and they agreed that I had enough points to get out, so I got out in December. I remember walking–– I had my barracks bag and headed down towards the train station–– and I walked past a restaurant and they were playing “I’ll Be Home for Christmas” and sure enough, I was. (35:49). Interviewer: “Do you recall where you were when–– exactly where you were–– when the war ended?” Do you mean when the bombs were dropped or–– Interviewer: “Yes. Or both if you recall.” [When] the bombs were dropped, I was in Sioux Falls, South Dakota waiting for reassignment. That’s when the war ended but the surrender documents were not assigned until September, I believe. Interviewer: “How about V-E Day?” An interesting sidelight to that–– the war ended on, I think, May 8. May 9 we were allowed to make a tourist flight, I guess you would say, to Germany in some of the bombed out cities at �maybe 1,000 feet. We flew down the Rhine River and I could look out my waist window and I didn’t see any sky, I just saw the bank of the Rhine River–– we were that low. It was so interesting, I just wish I’d had a video camera or could’ve taken some pictures because there’s so much you’re seeing that you can assimilate at all, but it was wonderful. We saw planes that had been forced landed, we saw where there had been tracks of big tank fights, trenches. The devastation of the German cities was terrible, just terrible. (37:34). Interviewer: “Did you work or go back to school after the war?” I came back and started immediately to go to school and everybody had to have a part-time job doing something. I did that, went to school three days a week, and then I got married somewhere along the line, and got my degree–– I’m trying to think of the year. It was probably 1950. Interviewer: “Did you receive the benefits from the GI Bill and go out to school?” Yes, and that was a great benefit. I think also for our country because it raised the educational level of the average man/woman in the street several notches over what it would’ve been. I was the first part of my family to go to college and graduate. My dad went to the ninth grade, my mother finished high school and was a rural teacher for one semester I think. I think that was one of the great things that happened, the GI Bill. (39:05). Interviewer: “Did your participation in the war contribute to your making this decision beyond the GI Bill? Did it motivate you to want to go back to school in any way?” Oh, yes. [When] I was in high school I had been a very poor student and I wanted an opportunity to do better. I realized that I needed it to go on and do all these grandiose things that 20/21-yearold people have. Interviewer: “What did you go on to do as a career, after the war?” Well, with a degree in Psychology–– which was a waste of time–– I went into the property casualty insurance business and stayed in it all of my adult life. Interviewer: “Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or the Military in general?” Well it would have too. If you had any sensibilities at all, it gives me an appreciation for the people who are in the Military–– even today, particularly today. Nothing was more saddening to me than what the Vietnam boys went through. The American people should be ashamed of themselves for what they did to those veterans. �Interviewer: “What are the experiences that stand out after all this time, that you’re most proud of?” (40:56). My perseverance to get into the Army–– the Air Force. If you want something badly enough and [you] make a commitment, it can happen. Although I didn’t go on to be the pilot that I wanted to be, I did the next best thing [which] is being a crew member. So I made my donation or participation. I think that, to me, is personally what I am proud of. That I did my job the best I could. Interviewer: “Is there anything you’d like to add that we have not covered in this interview?” I think we’ve covered quite a lot. It’s just that’s the most significant part of my life. I’m proud of what I did, I’m not bragging about it, but I’m proud that I opted to do what I had to do. (42:57). Interviewer: “We’ll conclude this interview, Alan. I’d just like to state, before we kill the camera, that Ryan and I would like to thank you for taking the time for the interview and we appreciate everything you’ve done in this country and because you were actually in World War II, we enjoy the freedoms from the fruits of your labor. Thank you very much sir.” You’re welcome. I think at my age I realized that and how times have changed so much, and that our great country is not being–– its virtues are not being taught, explained, expounded and it just saddens me to think how this country is being destroyed from within. Weakened. Interviewer: “You know, what amazes me is [that] I can only pretend to know what life was like in 1943 because I wasn’t there, but I know it was a lot different from what I’ve read and heard. I think about you being a young man back in 1943 and being thrust into this great conflict, and going through all the things you went through and everything you experienced. One thing that I’m always shocked at is how were you guys able to settle back into civilian life after experiencing all that? I mean, you were flying in B-24s across Europe in part of the strategic Air Force. How? It always amazed me that how could you come back and settle in after such–– having to participate in something like that? Was it difficult for you or did you just take right to it?” (44:54). I never even thought about it. You just did it. I think growing up in the 40s was probably the greatest experience that anybody could have. Life in the 40s, in a small town, I am so thankful for that. We had one high school, a little town, and friendships. The friendships we keep today. We’re having our 60th high school [reunion], if you believe that. 60th high school reunion. I �can’t believe I’m that old until I look in the mirror every morning. But it’s–– I’m not much at conventions/reunions and all that. We never had a high school reunion till 1993 which would be 50 years. So I agonized about that, over going. I went and did you know that some of the people that were my friends–– because we had a small school–– after 15/20 minutes it was like I never went away. One of the folks came up and he said, “You know, watching you and Hank talk over there, it’s like you had never been away.” And I hadn’t seen him for 50 years. But those values–– and you know, that’s multiplied around the United States I’m sure–– but the things we did in the fun. In fact, I’m going to–– in the last week of March–– I’ve got a condo that we’ve rented in Hilton Head, South Carolina and three couples are going to be there. (47:10). Interviewer: “That’s great.” One was in the Army, one was in the Navy, and the other one is my cousin. He wasn’t in anything. He was in the service but he didn’t get any combat or anything. It was just a great time in the 40s. In fact, I’ve been asked to work-up a program for the museum. Fort Bend County Museum on life in the 40s. I’ve been a little hesitant to do all that. I’ve got the research done, now I just have to write it. One of the things that we did participate in as a member of the Confederate Air Force [was] Texas Southern University here had an aviation program for four years, I believe, and we were asked to provide speakers and I spoke on the development of air power from World War I through World War II. That was interesting. I had to do some research on that myself and it’s usually the case that the speaker learns more than the students do from listening. I did that until the program was–– they lost their funding for it. But, that was good and some of those young people could care less but one or two of them, I think, were really interested, which is about average. I try to teach my son about the importance of being responsible for your own behavior and your decisions. You make a bad decision, you work like hell to correct it or learn from it. His son–– I’ve got videos of the war and books. I said, “When Corey gets to the age of being a junior in high school, I want you to play these things and talk it over with him because he’s not going to get it in the school books.” He’ll think World War II might be a paragraph like it is now. (49:32). Interviewer: “That’s true. It’s interesting you mentioned that. One of the primary motivating factors for me to get involved and try to record and archive living history, you know, was the birth of my two sons and hoping that at least one of them will appreciate history and the lessons we must learn from it–– as much as I do. I was thinking the same thing that you were thinking. It’s like, what can I show them? What resources can I direct them towards? I’m hoping that someday if he really wants to learn the real deal, as they say, he can access information like this at the Library of Congress and get a more meaningful picture of the real people who participated in World War II and in other foreign wars. �Don’t overlook the fact that there are some good videos that he can look at, and some good books that will direct the thinking. I must have 200 books out there and I told my son, “If you ever place any of those in the garage sale for 25 or 50 cents, I’m going to come back and slap the hell out of you.” Interviewer: “You’re going to haunt him.” (50:53). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeniorA2363V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Senior, Alan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-02 Title A name given to the resource Senior, Alan (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Alan Senior was born May 19, 1925 and grew up in a small town outside of Buffalo, New York. Senior was just a junior in high school when the bomb was dropped at Pearl Harbor, leading to questions about what was going to happen to him as he approached military age. Around the time Senior turned 18, he enlisted in the Voluntary Induction Program due to his dreams of becoming a flyer, therefore, joining the Air Cadets to guarantee his spot with the Air Force. Senior attended basic training in Greensboro, North Carolina where he didn’t quite make it through the Air Cadets program. Instead, Senior became an aerial gunner. This is when Senior went down to Laredo, Texas for gunnery school. Finally, after months of training Senior and his crew headed overseas to England where they were stationed. During their time in England, Senior and his crew were only able to fly ten missions before the war ended. Due to his time with the Air Force, Senior received the Air Medal and his crew was recognized for their particularly strong safety record. After being sent home from England, Senior went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for reassignment. However, this is when the final bombs were dropped and the war thus “ended.” Eventually, after Senior was discharged from the service he went back to school and pursued a degree in Psychology. He then worked in the property casualty insurance business and stayed there for his entire adult life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lupo, Tony (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75f28afb70a9f50ee0b4fc5e7bf87436.m4v 80ce4cb4cddda57ab8633fcda6c85c56 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a662b20ecfc4c8e12f156ff9b880ac7b.pdf 1a9d8ad4884230cf3d8e330ea64f10b7 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW EDWARD J. SERAFINO Born: January 16, 1948 Resides: Interviewed by: Terry Wainwright, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 24, 2014 Interviewer: Today is November 9. 2009 and we’re at Lake Michigan College in Benton Harbor, Michigan and we’re talking to Edward J. Serafino. We are interviewing for the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and my name is Terry Wainwright, lest we forget. Let’s just start at the beginning. What is the year of your birth? I was born on January 16th 1948. Interviewer: What branch of service were you in? I was in the Marines. Interviewer: What was the highest rank that you reached? I was an E4 when I got out. Interviewer: Could you tell us a little bit about your family and your original background before. Well, I was born and raised in a small town just west of Chicago and I had three younger sisters and my father worked in construction. My mother was just a house woman, a housewife. 1:10 Interviewer: What high school did you go to? I went to Morton West in Berwyn. Interviewer: When did you join the military? 1 �I joined on a hundred and twenty delayed program they had going, so I signed up in May and I went in right out of high school in August. Interviewer: What made you chose the Marines? I wanted to be a draft dodger, so I joined the Marines, and I knew I was going to Vietnam and I wanted the best training I could have, so I could come home. Interviewer: Could you pick what work you had in the military? I was an 18-33. It’s an amphibious assault vehicle called an Amtrac. It’s roughly thirty feet long, ten feet high, and ten feet wide. 2:05 And has a top speed of about ten miles an hour on hard packed, and about two miles an hour in the water, and it floats. Interviewer: Do you remember the first few days in the Marines, what was it like and what was it like during basic training? Well, I remember going down town and they put you in this big room and you stand around and wait. They took us on a bus and took us to O’Hare Airport and it was the first time I was ever on a plane. Our next stop was San Diego. We got off the plane and there were two drill instructors standing there, very nice gentlemen, and they talked real nice to us until we got in the bus. We got in the bus and the good times ended. 3:02 We got to MC area D, stood on the yellow footprints and went in there and got a haircut. All twenty of us walked through the barber shop in about ten minutes. Then they walked you into different rooms, they give you a yellow T-shirt, a pair of pants that almost fit, shoes and socks, skivvies, they marched all twenty of us into the shower. You came out of the shower and put all of your civilian clothes in a box, put this other stuff on, they gave you a blanket, sheets, pillowcase, and then you finally went to bed about four in the morning. You get up at six and you start over again. 2 �Interviewer: What was boot camp like? I was in pretty good shape when I went to boot camp, because I played sports in high school, and it was rough. 4:03 A lot of calisthenics, a lot of classrooms you go to, different things you learn, how to shoot a rifle, how to march, how to pay attention, how to just grow up. Interviewer: How long did that last? Nine weeks, and then right out of boot camp they give you what you’re going to do in the service and then yo go to ITR, which was two weeks and then yo went home on leave for twenty days. Then I went back to California, learned what an Amtrac was , how to drive it, graduated from that in thirty days, went to staging, and then I went to Vietnam. Interviewer: Do you remember anything about your trip to Vietnam? 5:00 They took us on school busses to El Toro Air Force Base. We got there in the afternoon and we all went to the theater and the movie we went to see was Born Free. The next morning we got up, they had a civilian airplane and took us to Okinawa. In Okinawa we got our shots, we gave blood, collected our uniforms there and then went to Da Nang and from Da Nang you just went to your unit you were with. Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam, what did you think? It was like a town that was a hundred years old. You didn’t see any street lights; there was no electricity where we were at, no ice, no anything. 6:10 Interviewer: You said you went from there, further north, and where did you go from there? 3 �From Da Nang I went to Dong Ha where I was stationed with a four deuce [4.2-inch] mortar battery for a while, because they needed more people there than they did in amtracs. From there I went to Camp Carroll. Interviewer: Stepping back a little bit, what was your job in Dong Ha? In Dong Ha it was in a four deuce mortar battery where I worked with a supply person for two weeks and then they had an outpost with about, I believe it was, ten 4.2 mortars, and I ended up out there with them. 7:00 We’d just shoot the mortar at different areas they’d have a shootout at night. I don’t remember where the base was at, the only way in was by Huey gunship, you’d go to an airport and they’d put you on a Huey gunship, they’d take you in and drop you off and you’d just do that, and then you’d have to stand security at night during the monsoons where it was so dark you couldn’t see anything. Interviewer: How many people would be at this outpost? There would be three of us in there, two would be awake and one would be sleeping. Interviewer: How long did you stay there? All night, and you’d do that, maybe, one or two days a week, and different people would just rotate with you. 8:01 If you were not doing that then you’d be on gun watch all night, or if a fire mission came in you’d have to drop the rounds into the tube and shoot them. Interviewer: You said you went to Camp Carroll, what did you do there? Well, they needed bodies up there, so they had us digging foxholes, bunkers and filling sandbags—moving sandbags and then we’d stand security at night in there, also. That was the first time we ever got hit—mortars and rockets, it’s like a beautiful 4th of July 4 �coming in. You see nothing but red and blue and silver sparkling things going over your head at night. Interviewer: Were there a lot of casualties? There were quite a few up there, but not a lot. 9:00 Interviewer: You still hadn’t had a chance to use your specialty? No, then from there we went to Quang Tri. They got over run, so they put more marines over there to stand security with the ARVNS, and then finally I got in the amtracs. They took us down by an LST to Cocoa Beach down by Phu Bai/Hue, and from there we went five miles over the river to a cemetery between three villages. We stayed there for about a month and a half as security. Interviewer: What was it like there? It was very boring, you would just stand security. We made a couple trips with the Amtracs and on one of these trips we were starting to get mortared. 10:03 With the AmTracs not moving too fast we had to call in for an air strike and they brought two jets in. They came in so fast and so low, dropping napalm that nobody knew where they were coming from, or how they got there. But when you go over the top of the Amtrac and you see those silver canisters come rolling out from the bottom, you know they’re close. Then they come back on the radios and tell you, “you better duck, here we come again”, and they did. Interviewer: I see where you actually lived in an active cemetery? Yes, one day—one Sunday every month, the Vietnamese, they were allowed to come on our base and bring food for the dead. 11:05 They would set up a little blanket on the grave and put vegetables and fruit on the grave, so the person that passed could eat. We 5 �always helped them out with that and made sure they ate good. From there, that platoon was the third platoon, they were going back to Okinawa and since I didn’t have enough time to go back to Okinawa with them, they transferred me to the fourth platoon. From the fourth platoon I went back to Cua Viet again and from there we went to Cam Lo, parked in another cemetery for a month, and from there we went to Con Thien. 12:00 We’re up in Con Thien to haul supplies, because it was so muddy up there you couldn’t get trucks to move, so we had to haul ammunition, water and food, and take the water tank down to the creek and fill that up and bring that back every day. One day up in Con Thien they had a bunch of infantrymen who got shot up real bad. They had ten, or fifteen wounded, ten, or fifteen, dead and they called in for helicopters to medevac them out, they tried and they couldn’t get them out because they were getting shot at, so we had to put three doctors, the corpsman and a preacher inside the amtrac and take them out, and pick-up the wounded and dead. That was the day we were driving through the high elephant grass. 13:03 I was driving and you sit up in the front corner, and I looked down and I ran over one of our bombs that didn’t go off and for some reason it did not blow again. A few minutes later there was a Vietcong lying in the grass with a gun, I saw him at the last minute and ran over him, I couldn’t avoid him. Interviewer: That was the only one in that area that you knew of? The only one that we knew of, yes, and then we went up there and found out where they were at and we started loading up the wounded and the dead. I was helping them carry the wounded on stretchers back to the amtrac. Went back to Con Thien, the helicopter’s there waiting for us and they took them from us. 14:00 Interviewer: Were you under fire at that time, or was the squad at that time? 6 �We were under a lot of fire at that time. Interviewer: During that whole period? Yes, and months later I was ready to come home and I was in Da Nang, and this fellow Marine comes up and grabs my hand and shakes my hand and he says, “Thank you”, and I said, “I don’t know you”, and he said, “Yes you do, I was one of the wounded you carried. I told myself I’d never forget your face”. Interviewer: You were telling me about a priest that was with you? The priest that was at Con Thien with us his name was Father Lyons and we had our amtracs parked right next to their makeshift hospital up there, and Father Lyons used to come into the amtrac with us and talk to us at night and enjoy having C rations with us. 15:07 I was explaining to them that I was born and raised in a town in Illinois called Lyons, and he looks at me and he says, “I used to be the preacher in the church in Riverside”, which was three or four miles from my house. Interviewer: How long were you in Con Thien? I believe I was there for about a month and a half. We were there for the Marine Corps birthday and they did us a favor, they brought in real food for us that day, but the weather was so bad they couldn’t get the helicopters in right away and all the food went bad and we all got sick up there. 16:03 They had to fly in medication for us, so we could still operate. We also spent Thanksgiving up there too. Interviewer: What was Thanksgiving like? They brought fresh food in for us again too, but I don’t think any of us ate it. Nothing against the cooks, but the C rations were much better. Interviewer: Was that what the food was normally? 7 �Yes, we carried a lot of C rations, and we did not have mess halls too often, because we were out in different locations with the amtracs. Interviewer: What did you think of the food in the C rations? You got your favorites and your ham and lima beans were one of the best. You took the ham out very gently and you threw it as far as you could. 17:02 You took the lima beans and you mixed them up with a little hot sauce, cheese and crackers, heated them up and they were good. The apricots, you never ate. Interviewer: So you get to be a real cook there. Yes you do, and you learn what’s good and what’s not. Interviewer: Did you have much contact with the local people? Most of the time no--because anybody that came near the fence knew the wires were free game to shoot, and when we were in the cemetery that was time when people could come through us and that was about it. Interviewer: So, were you pretty much stationary? Did you go out with your AmTrac on any missions? We would take the amtracs out every third day. 18:01 One day we would drive a patrol and the next day we would walk the patrol and the third day we would work on the AmTracs. If we drove, we’d take the other people from our platoon and we’d drop them off at one side of a village and we would drive to the other side of the village and sit there and wait for them to come to us. If anybody came out we’d have to check their ID cards to see if they were north or South Vietnamese. If they didn’t have an ID card, they were north and we took them back to the base. Interviewer: How many would go on a mission? 8 �There would be about twenty of us. Interviewer: What is the capacity of the amtrac? I believe it would hold thirty on the inside, but you never rode on the inside, you always rode on the top, because on the bottom of the AmTrac was all the fuel. 19:05 It held almost four hundred gallons of fuel, of gas, so if you hit a bomb it would just explode and burn everything up inside. Interviewer: How safe was it when you were in the amtrac then? One .762 a round would go through the side of it, so they weren’t that safe. Interviewer: Did one ever do that? We had quite a few that sunk and burned, and got blown up by different mines and bombs. If you were lucky and hit a small bomb, you’d just blow the track off of it. Interviewer: What weapons did the amtrac have? What did it have to fight back? We had one thirty caliber machine gun that would be mounted on the front and it had a three man crew. 20:04 You had a driver, a machine gunner and a crew chief. Interviewer: So where did you go after Con Thien? From Can Tien we went back to Cau Viet for the first of the year, January of 1968, and then we went aboard a ship. We were part of a BLT battalion landing troop. They loaded us up on the Cleveland, which was an LPD. We were supposed to take the amtracs and swim them out to the ship, but the waves were so high they had to bring mike boats in. They put the amtrac on the boat, took that out to the ship, unloaded it, and came back. 21:00 I was the crew chief of four zero, so that meant that I was the first on off the ship, the last one on. We finally got on the ship, got the amtrac tied down with the dogs and this officer comes up to me and said, “How did you like the Navy food?” I 9 �said, “I don’t know sir, we just got on here and we’re ready to go back to the amtrac and have some more C rations for supper”. He said, “No you’re not”, and he took us to the officers’ mess and fed us that night. That was the first time in months that we had milk that was cold and not powdered. From there we went to the Philippine Islands, we were supposed to be there for a month with the battalion landing troop and that ended up to be about four or five days. 22:00 Then they had us load back up and go back and made a landing in Cau Viet when the Tet started. We stayed on the beach for another couple weeks, the ship came in, and my Lieutenant knew I was getting short, so he had me get back on the ship to go back to Da Nang and back home. Interviewer: You said you were in country in early 1968. Were you there during Tet? Just the start of it Interviewer: What was that like? There were a lot more mortars and rockets that came into our base. Interviewer: It was more active? Yes, and we always listened to Hanoi Hannah and she said, “I will have New Year’s dinner in your mess hall”, but she didn’t. 23:00 Interviewer: What other kind of entertainment did you have? I saw one USO show. On the night before I was ready to leave for Da Nang--that was the USO show we saw. We were so far north that Bob Hope wouldn’t even send us a card. We didn’t have any up there, we didn’t have week-ends, and it was just another day to work. Interviewer: You mentioned about Bob Hope. 10 �When I got out of the service, I went back to the night club I use to work at in my small town, and I was in there working one night and Bob Hope and a couple of his friends walked in there. The waiter knew I was back from Vietnam and he told Bob Hope. 24:01 Bob Hope called me over by him to say “hello” and he asked me how great his shows were and I told him, “I don’t know, you wouldn’t even send us a card”. He shook my hand and laughed. Interviewer: Any other things that were memorable in the usual happenings that comes to mind? Well, the worst thing that happened to me when I left Vietnam, I was in one of their local watering holes in my home town and the police were looking for me that night. So, when I went back home I went to the police station and they informed me that my driver got killed right after I left Nam. 25:02 His parents wanted me to come up and see him, they were up in Palmyra, Wisconsin and his name was Chuck Duel. Interviewer: What was the best experience you had with regards to Vietnam and your military service? When we left the Philippine Islands with the amtracs--we had them—the ship was parked out, maybe, a quarter mile in the bay and we had to take our amtracs and swim them out to the ship. If anybody went to the Philippine Islands, especially Subic Bay, you know what’s there. There are a lot of taverns and a lot of loose women. 26:00 We wanted to see who could buy the most women’s skivvies to hang on the antennas when we went back to the ship. That was great—one of the Colonels or Generals from Subic Bay wanted to have his wife and daughters watch the amtracs go back to the ship. He did not 11 �care for our flags that were flying off the antennas and we ended up with no liberty for thirty days off the ship. Interviewer: While you were in Vietnam, how did you keep in touch with your family back home? We would just write letters, and what was nice about Vietnam, you never had stamps. 27:01 We use to just write across the top where a stamp would go, “free’. That was— and being away from our base most of the time, sometimes it would take a month before we got a letter, and then you’d get a whole stack of them. Interviewer: Were you awarded any medals, or citations? No, not that I can think of Interviewer: Tell me about your trip home from Vietnam, what was it like? What kind of experience did you have? We went back to Okinawa. We ended up landing there—well, first when we were aboard the ship, the Cleveland, they got my records and then they said, “Okay, we’re not going to Da Nang”, so I flew on a small helicopter from the Cleveland to Iwo Jima. 28:11 Before we got on you’re standing there with an envelope with you papers in it. They tell you that if you lose your papers you’re not going home. So, you’re sitting on this airplane, this helicopter, with no doors on it and they fly you from one ship to the other. Then we went on to Iwo Jima, from that they went on to Da Nang. They took all of our paperwork and put it on a small boat and said, “Okay, climb down the rope ladder to the other boat”, and they’re going up and down. When they say, “jump”, jump. 29:02 then we got into Da Nang and they said, “Your plane is not leaving for a day and a half”. That was the night we saw the USO show and they played the Marine Corps. Hymn and 12 �everybody stood up. We went back to the airport, sat on wooden benches and left Da Nang. We got to Okinawa and we were there for six hours, got our sea bags, got on a civilian plane and went back to El Toro. We landed in El Toro and we had a big party waiting for us, maybe five people. 30:03 We walked in this building, sat down, they signed our orders and they said, “If you go to the airport be careful and stay in groups”. We piled in a cab to the airport and we stayed in a group watching people and walking us to different gates. It was three o’clock in the morning and I was by myself, everybody else was gone. I went to the washroom and the next thing I know two guys are trying to push me through the wall, and all of a sudden they were gone. Two guys walked in and started thumping on those two. I said, “Can I stay and help?” They said, “No, get out”, so they threw me out of the washroom. 31:00 I see these guys a half hour later, they were both in the navy and that was their job, to stay at the airport and protect military people. Interviewer: Where did you go from there? From there I went back to Chicago. I stayed home for thirty days, for thirty five days, because I had to get a five day extension to go to my driver funeral. His parents wanted me to be a pallbearer, in uniform, which I did. I came home, drove out to California and I was stationed working in the brick, in Camp Pendleton. From there, I was discharged out of there, and I went back home. 32:00 Interviewer: After leaving the military did you keep in touch with the guys? No, I didn’t, except we had a reunion eleven years ago in a big town called New Town, North Dakota. They have one casino there, it’s Four Bears, and one of the marines that was in our platoon, he was from that tribe and he wanted to have a reunion at the casino. 13 �He said, he was talking to some of us and he said, “When we come home from the war, we meet at this arena”. There is a big hall there and they go there and everybody from the village and the tribe, they come back and they welcome you home. 33:06 He said, “Sometimes it takes two, or three, days before all the food and booze is gone”, so that was it, so he wanted to have the reunion there. So, we had the reunion there, we had a good time and that was the same week they had a Pow Wow, and there had to be over a thousand Indians there. He had it arranged so the thirty of us would carry the colors in for the opening ceremony. So, I tried to get at the end of the line, which I did, we carry the colors in and set them up and as we’re marching in the Indians are coming in behind us in full dress. 34:00 We made a big circle and they were still coming in, so we get out there and all set up and he gets up there and he does his prayers and everything, and he says, “When we were aboard ship we were talking, what happens when these people come home, the bartender might buy them a drink if they’re lucky”. He said, “You will be welcomed home today”, so he excused all the Indians and he said, “Okay, welcome them home”. They start off by having all the old women come up to you, they give you a hug and a kiss and a squeeze and say a couple nice word to you. Then you get the ones that come up and give you a hug and a kiss and a squeeze and say, ”I’m happy you made it home, I wish my son, or husband, would have made it him too”. 35:02 Now you have thirty marines up there with tears running down, and everybody came up and welcomed you home. Indians in full dress, the kids, everybody and it’s one thing I’ll never forget. Interviewer: Did you use the GI Bill at all? 14 �A few months after I got out of the service, I went to work for the telephone company and I used my GI Bill for on the job training, which wasn’t too much, but it helped out back then. Interviewer: So, what kind of an impact do you think being in the marines had on your life? 36:00 I believe they should activate the draft and have everybody join the service. We were sitting in a restaurant one night when--one Sunday morning, me and my wife, on two busy streets and the restaurant was packed. I saw this young girl sitting in a car, this guy jumped off the sidewalk, tried to get in her car and she was smart enough to lock her doors, and then he went and sat on her hood, so she couldn’t move. Nobody from the restaurant would do anything about it, so I just walked out and asked him very nicely to leave and he did. 37:00 I walked back in the restaurant and five or six people came up to me and asked me what I said to him. I said, “If you wanted to know, you would have walked out there too”. Being in the military you’ve got to look out for other people and that’s why I feel I did it. Interviewer: Anything else you would like to say? This is a lot harder than you think it is, being on this side of the chair and I thank you very much, you did a great job. 37:40 15 �16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SerafinoE Title A name given to the resource Serafino, Edward (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Serafino, Edward Description An account of the resource Edward Serafino was born in Illinois in 1948 and enlisted in the Marines Corps right after graduating from high school. They were sent to San Diego for basic training for 9 weeks, which was very rough on him even though he had played many sports in high school. Edward then trained with amphibious vehicles called Amtraks for another 30 days before being shipped to Vietnam. While in Vietnam Edward worked for a while on supplies, guard duty, and then spent most of his time traveling along water ways in the Amtraks. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wainright, Terry (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87c348e90aae68e67fc3ac26eec96502.pdf 0722b1e31286c9fae17d5dcc81af3208 PDF Text Text �� https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ac7b787b0a8c03af09d92e9797df502.pdf 3e6e358c45c05827d8225ee303600fa0 PDF Text Text [Page 1] Washington Jan.1. 1840 Dear Sir, Your favor of the 30th was received last evening. I have not seen Mr. Wise since, and may not see him ‘till Friday, the day the House stands adjourned to. I will avail myself, however, of the earliest opportunity to recommend you to him, in case there should be a committee. It seems to me that Genl. Harrison will be a more formidable antagonist to Mr. Van Buren, than any other the convention could have selected. There is not a murmur [?] in the Whig ranks, which proves very clearly the strength of their attachment to their principles and their cause. I wish you a happy New Year. Yr. truly John sergeant N. Sargent Esq. �[Cover] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-44_NS1-15491 Title A name given to the resource Nathan Sargent from John Sergeant, January 1, 1840 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1840-01-01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sergeant, John, 1779-1852 Description An account of the resource Letter informing Sargent that it may be possible to recommend him to a committee. Sergeant also expresses his opinion that William Henry Harrison will be the best opponent for Martin Van Buren in the Presidential election. Subject The topic of the resource Sargent, Nathan, 1794-1875 Whig Party (U.S.) United States--Politics and government--19th century United States--Officials and employees Petitions Pennsylvania Washington (D.C.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent papers, (RHC-44)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e564817de113dd011c6cea427dbe492.pdf b747cc4b731fa1661298d107d51e910d PDF Text Text �� https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/96c3ae71955caf694bd417e966f146b9.pdf e0db65517caf38789139a7affccc985f PDF Text Text [Page 1] Washington, Feb. 20. 1841 Dear Sir, I have received your letter of the 18th, and have only time to say in reply, that you may be assured of my desire to serve you, to the extent that may be in my power. Yr. truly John sergeant N. Sargent Esq. �[Cover] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-44_NS1-15492 Title A name given to the resource Nathan Sargent from John Sergeant, February 20, 1841 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1841-02-20 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sergeant, John, 1779-1852 Description An account of the resource Letter expressing Sergeant's desire to serve Sargent. Subject The topic of the resource Sargent, Nathan, 1794-1875 Whig Party (U.S.) United States--Politics and government--19th century United States--Officials and employees Petitions Pennsylvania Washington (D.C.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent papers, (RHC-44)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3759c082fb95b408f14ad4377331109.pdf b8a72c2bf8092f2d6e9d67d7b58432a9 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jordan Serla Interviewers: Julie Doescher, DeVonte Jones and Krysten Velderman Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/15/2011 Runtime: 01:05:44 Biography and Description Jordan Serla discusses growing up gay in a small town. Transcript Julie: How old are you? Jordan: I’m 18 Julie: And, what is your gender? Jordan: Uhm… male (laughs loudly). Julie: What is your sexual orientation? Jordan: I’m gay (laughs). Julie: If you could describe yourself, uhm, how would you like, identify yourself? Using anything you can think of by using 3 or 4 words. Jordan: Definitely diva, uh, I can be a bitch (everyone laughs). Uhm, I’m a riot. I’ve never had someone hang out with me that didn’t want to hang out with me afterwards (laughs). Uh, you can ask Rachel I’m a riot (laughs). And, I’m crazy. Julie:(laughs) Okay. (all laugh). Julie: Tell me a little about your childhood, what it was like growing up. Jordan: Uhm, I grew up like, like, if you saw me now, you would not even dare to think that I grew up the way that I did. Uhm, I grew up in, well I started out in Saginaw Township, which was a nice little town, I mean if you get to the wrong side of Saginaw it’s a little bit iffy there, but (laughs) I grew up in the Township area, I went to school there blah, blah, blah. Had an awesome childhood in, for the most part, but I mean uhm, and then I moved to Decatur, do you want all of the childhood details? (laughs) Page 1 �Julie: Yeah, definitely! Jordan: Okay (laughs). Because uhm, I mean, when I was little I, in probably 2nd grade, I filed child abuse on my dad, my step dad because he was very, very like, aggressive. Julie: It was your step dad? Jordan: Yeah Julie: Okay Jordan: Like, I mean there were lots of times, where he would just like. I remember one time I left my coat on the floor downstairs, and he just picked me up and whipped me down the stairs and I smacked my head on the back, on the table that was down there. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Yeah, it was bad. Like, any time he came around me, like one time he chased me down the stairs and picked me up, and I just pissed my pants because I was so scared (he laughs). Julie: All gasp, oh my gosh. Jordan: I was pissed cause I loved those jeans (laughs) (Everyone laughs loudly.) Jordan: But uhm. Julie: And was your mom and real dad present or? Jordan: Uhm, my mom and real dad separated when I was one. So, my step dad came into my life when I was 3, married my mom when I was 5, uhm, around 6 is when he started getting like, aggressive, and violent towards me and my brother. And uhm, like uh, it was just… I knew it was wrong and my brother just like, never did anything about it. Like, any time child protective services would try to help, he would deny it and then like, my mom would go in and tell them I was crazy. (laughs) Julie: Is your brother older or younger? Jordan: Yeah, he’s 21. Julie: Okay Jordan: Yup Julie: But, uh. Julie: So your mom didn’t do anything or? Jordan: Nope, she denies it to this day. Julie: And your dad, does he know anything? Page 2 �Jordan: Yep, yep he knew about a lot of it, he tried to do what he could, but uhm, I mean when you’re, he’s a cop, so you can’t really do anything. Julie: Yeah.. okay. Jordan: And uhm, so that’s how that went. Uhm, it continued for a long time until I started getting older and he started calming down. Stopped doing it as much, like, stopped all that. Uhm, like, it happened a few times when I was in, like 7th and 8th grade. That kind of stuff, that was after we moved to Decatur. Julie: Okay Jordan: I went from like, a normal suburb life to like, hick town in the country (groans) (All laugh quietly) (He laughs.) (We all laugh.) Jordan: Uhm, that was kind of an interesting place. It just, like I think that’s the place that made me strong. Uhm, Julie: And why is that? Jordan: Uhm, just because like, being the way I was, like I mean, I wasn’t open. But, I still, you could kinda tell. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I wore fashionable clothes, and, like, my hair was always done up and stuff like that, you could tell but I still reached my way to the top of the popularity pyramid at a hick town. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, high school. Like, if I can do that, then what can’t I do. Julie: Is your, do you talk to your step dad? Jordan: Uhm, Julie: Like, right now or? Jordan: Uhm, if I go over there I’ll say high and that’s it. I don’t talk to him unless I need him. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: For various cop stuff, (laughs) Julie: And, would you say that your family is close? Or your you know, with your brother, you only have one brother? Page 3 �Jordan: I have 6 siblings. Julie: Oh wow. Okay Jordan: Eh, yeah. Jordan: And the thing is, my dad, uhm, he had my older sister. She’s 26. She’s heavily into meth (laughs). Julie: Okay. Jordan: Everyone’s got their problems. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: Uhm, she, she does, yeah we don’t really talk to her right now, because of all that, but yeah, uhm. And then I have two half brothers from there I have a step brother that’s from my dad’s new wife, uhm, and then I have two little sisters that my mom and step dad had, uhm, like, when I was 7. My little sister was born when I was 7, yeah. And then the other one when I was 10. Julie: Okay. And then are you close with them, or Jordan: Not really. Julie: Okay Jordan: I mean I was really close to my sister, she was my idol, and like, growing up it was like Shawna… she was there. She was the coolest sister ever, but now it’s like… Julie: Oh. The one that Jordan: Yeah… that one. Uhm, yeah now it’s like, I can’t believe what you turned into because you had so much potential. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And that kind of thing, but uhm, my brother is the one that I’m closest with. Julie: Okay Jordan: Uhm, he’s actually, like, cause we grew up every day together. Like, he was my only, he’s my only full blood brother. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like all my other siblings are half siblings, and uhm, well… yeah so that’s the ones I’m close with. As far as my other family goes, I’m not really a family person. I’ve always felt closer with my friends than I ever have with my family. Uhm, my mom even though all the stuff with my childhood I try to move on with it because, when no one else was around, me and my mom had a bond that was like no other. Page 4 �Like, we just get each other we have the same sense of humor, like, just do the same things. Like, both hard core bitches (all laugh). Julie: And your dad? Jordan: Uhm, my dad. I got a pretty good relationship with my dad. Uhm, I just saw him a couple of days ago. Like I mean, I’ve been around my dad, when I was… uhm sophomore year, my whole life, ever since, probably like 8th grade I’ve gone down to Saint Joe, and, uhm, stayed with my aunt and uncle, like all summer, and like the weekends and stuff like that. Like the weekends after I got my car and I could drive down there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: But, I would go and stay the whole summers, and they gave me a job so I could make money, uhm, they put me in a good environment, uhm around kids where I could learn and like, they just taught me a bunch of stuff that, you know, like your parents, my parents didn’t give a shit enough to tell me, and my dad couldn’t be there for me, so, Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Uhm, there was that. So that’s how I ended up in Saint Joe. Uhm, how I moved, I moved junior year to Plainwell, and that was pretty much the breaking point of that was going to Saint Joe and seeing my uncle and living with them for the summers and weekends was like what kept me going in life. It was just, it kept me motivated. And uhm, let me know what I wanted in life. And, uhm, my step dad uhm, didn’t like that, and we were seeing a therapist, a family therapist at the time. Because… they thought I was crazy (laughs nervously). But, uhm, and then the therapist said that he needs to spend more time with his family, and that’s the last thing I wanted to because I hated them. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, so, I told my dad that they weren’t going to let me go over to my aunt’s house anymore, and, he’s like, well that’s it and he told my step mom, and my step mom’s like okay, you can move in with us next year. Start school over here, and uhm, that’s what I did. I moved to Plainwell, bigger school. More opportunities, loved it. Graduated early, I haven’t been in school (gasps) for like 9 months now, (laughs). (All laugh) Jordan: It’s been awesome. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: I start school in December though, but it’s a school that I actually like. Julie: Okay. And, uhm, what would you say your hobbies are, what do you like to do? Jordan: I like to draw (quietly laughs) Looks around because there are paintings up on his walls of his artwork. Page 5 �(All quietly laugh). Jordan: I like to paint. Julie: Uh-huh (laughs) Obviously. Jordan: I love to shop, and I love to spend money. (All laugh again). Julie: that be something… painting… that be something that maybe would be a possible career choice? Jordan: Uhm, the arts is a career that I’m going into. Julie: Okay Jordan: If, like, you look at the artistic point of view, I’m going into cosmetology. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, my dad’s best friends daughter is a runway model out in L.A. Julie: Wow. Jordan: So, as soon as I finish school, I’m gonna go to Chicago next year, get some experience, like learn how to do what I need to do, and then I’m goin straight out to L.A. and work my way to the top.. A-List, here I come! Julie: (All laugh) Awesome, so what would you want to do as your career, like, be a hair stylist in L.A.? Jordan: Yeah, for celebrities. I’m gonna be a platform artist I never wanna work in a salon, after I get my experience because I’ve worked in a salon as a receptionist and I’ve seen how evil those bitches are. And I do not want to live a life where I have to go to that every day, and deal with that, and just, the petty, stupidity. So I’m gonna be a platform artist, and do my own stuff. I’m gonna do hair shows, celebrities, that kind of thing. Runways, all that stuff. Julie: Okay, awesome. Jordan: That’s the stuff that I like. I don’t want to be tied down (half laughs). Julie: Uhm, so you said that, uhm you were really close with a lot of your friends, as oppose to family, uhm, so what kind of people did you hang out with? Has it changed from who you hang out with now in high school, or? Jordan: Uhm, I’ve always been really good at finding like, legit friends. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 6 �Jordan: Like, uhm, I’ve had the same, I’ve always like, because I am gay, I’ve always needed a guy best friend and a girl best friend. My guy best friend I found when I was in 6th grade. We’re still friends to this day, like, talk to him all the time. Julie: Wow Jordan: Uhm… so, it’s been a long time (laughs) Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: So, but I’ve always switched girl best friends because I’ve never found the right fit. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, but when I do pick em, I pick them really good. Like, all my best friends that I have had, I still talk to em. Like, I still talk to them and I’m still close with them it’s just there not.. there. Right now I’ve I’ve found the one. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, it’s Tara (laughs). She’s my best friend. Like I could talk to that girl about anything, so comfortable around her. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, we do the most stupid shit ever (all laugh). We just sit there and laugh. (Laugh again). Jordan: Uhm, so like as far as friends go, like, I mean, the kind of friends that I hang out, have all varied, uhm, I’ve figured out that, although I listen to pop music, and I love country, and like, all that bubbly like, like (laughs) dancin music, uhm.. I love all that. And all, my two closest friends are all like into die hard death metal screamo, like nasty like I feel like Satan’s gonna come out of my radio (all laugh again). Uhm, so there like, there kinda rocker-ish. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: So they’re different from you? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: You like that? Jordan: Yeah, they’re like opposite of me. Uhm. Like I don’t get how I can become such good friends with people like that. But, it just happens (laughs). Julie: Yeah Page 7 �Jordan: Love it Julie: Uhm, are you religious? Jordan: Uhm, I’m not really religious. Julie: Okay, have you ever been or are your parents? Jordan: Parents, definitely. My mom always told me that gayness was devil spirits in your brain possessing you. Which now, just sounds crazy to me. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Uhm, I don’t believe in the Bible. I believe that uhm, if you look it up; the opposite of godly is religion. And uhm, so I’ve just I kind of believe what I believe. I believe that there’s a greater thing up there. Cause, like I mean, when I’ve been in shitty situations I pray, and, everything gets resolved so, it makes me feel like there’s something up there, and just the thought of it makes me feel more comfortable. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Knowing that, there is something. But as far as like, the Bible goes, and sinning. I don’t believe in sinning, that’s crazy. How can, how could you just be put on this earth, and, then given, how is a man supposed to die for your sins and, like, now like, you can sin and be forgiven? Like, I don’t believe there are sins, I believe that there is choices that you make, and there’s right and wrong choices, of course, but as far as sins go, and there’s something wrong, and like, God’s just frowning down on you for doing that, like, that’s just crazy. (Laughs). I just don’t believe in that, and if you do, that’s fine. But, that’s just not something I believe in. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I mean, I believe Jesus is there. I believe God ‘s there, but, as far as like, God doesn’t like that, that you did that, like, I don’t like that. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: I mean I do believe in karma, what goes around comes around. And, I mean I’ve definitely had my fair share of bad karma, and I’ve had my fair share of good karma (a horn beeping goes off from his cell phone) and I’m at that point in my life where I realize, doing stupid things like stealing from people, like that (points to a gnome he stole) brings bad karma. Like, I mean, that’s not something I want in my life, and you know, I’ve gotten a couple doses of good karma in my life and I like it too much to give it up (we laugh) (he laughs), so ha. Julie: And when your mom did tell you that uhm, she didn’t, you know, uh, did you believe that at the time? Were you young? Or, like does she still think that, tell you that? Or has she changed? Jordan: (Laughs) Uhm, she won’t tell me that now because I’m pretty sure she has an idea (we laugh). She’s always asking my brother, and my brother’s like “Uh I don’t know ha ha” Page 8 �(We laugh). Jordan: He’s like, it’s not my decision to tell her. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Cause it’s not, but uhm. (Laughs). Well, uhm… like I mean it was always in the back of my mind growing up. Like, just like, uhm. I was actually home schooled for two years. I missed that part in my schooling debate that I was telling you about. (All laugh). Jordan: Uhm, 7th and 8th grade I was home schooled which I look back, and am so thankful I was because that’s like your awkward stage where you have time to grow, and I was like, the, I was the, really big like loser, like dirty kid, like uhm. I just, like, the bad kid that’s always gettin into trouble at school. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, like, 5th and 6th grade, and then 7th and 8th grade I had time to grow and like find myself without all these other kids around me judging me all the time, ya know, that kind of thing, I got a chance to kind of like, figure it out, and what I was doing, and like, stuff like that, so. When I went back to high school my freshman year, I was, uhm, it was like my year of adjustment like getting back into everything, and ya know, I was, I made a lot of other friends, and like, some of the people I grew up in 5th and 6th grade like, like, they were a lot different towards me now, and somehow I worked my way up from the chain, and everybody loved me now. Like I can still go back, like I can go to a football game, and they’ll all be there. And I’ll walk through, and they’ll be like AHHHH, (laughs), like they’ll still be all like crazy towards me. Julie: (All laugh). That’s awesome. Jordan: Like they’ll still be all crazy towards me. Julie: Uhm, when did you first know, was there a point? Jordan: I’ve always known. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Always. Julie: So like, really young? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: And what, why happened? Was there any significant moment, or no? Jordan: Uhm, I don’t know you know you can tell that I’m really girly. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 9 �Jordan: Like, I’ve just always been that way. Like when I was little, I used to dress up like a girl. Like I mean I know that’s really weird, but yeah I totally did. And all the time so. My whole family just thought it was weird, but they thought maybe we just have a weird kid. Like, so I’ve always known. Uhm, I don’t know I remember watching tv and like, stuff was getting more sexual and there were guys on the tv that were shirtless and I was like, damnn (laughs). (All laugh loudly). Jordan: So, like I mean I just kind of, like girls, like when you, when you start liking boys you don’t like boys when you’re little, you know, you just don’t. But I remember being little and like being in love with Nick Carter from Backstreet Boys. (All laugh). Julie: Uhm, so, do…have you told your, have you, you’ve told your parents? Or no? Or do they just have some kind of clue? Have you told your brothers and sisters? Jordan: My mom is on to me (laughs). My brother, he, I have like, when I was 15, well since I was 15 I’ve had like an iPod Touch, and I always have these gay apps where I was able to talk to people, and stuff like that, so one time, and I always kept my iPod locked, and then one time I let my brother into it, and he found it, and like with my friend Holly, who lives with me right now, (laughs), so, well she doesn’t live with me right now but she lives like over there in the same apartment complex, but, uhm, but, uhm… oh snap what was I saying. I hate that I get sidetracked, stoner mind. Julie: About Holly, and… Jordan: Oh, well they found that, and like two years went by. And never, never said anything to my brother, even though I knew he knew, because Holly told me of course, and uhm like, him and Holly dated for a while, and like had a little thing, but never really dated, but that’s how I know her and now we’re like tight. She comes over here every night after work and we have girl talk. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, she’ll come over here tonight. Uhm, but… my brother and me, I don’t even remember exactly how it went down. I think he said something and I was just like whatever, because my junior year of high school, I moved to a new school. The way I looked at it is, like Decatur, I already ran that school. Like I already know what it’s like to be the most popular kid in school. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And like, I knew what it was like to be that, you know when I moved to Plainwell, I just wanted real friends. You know? Like, I didn’t, I didn’t want all the showboaty every time I walked down the hallway. Like, I didn’t care about that anymore. I just wanted to have a good high school experience for the time that was left there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 10 �Jordan: Uhm, so when I got there, I didn’t like seek anything out. I still became pretty popular there just on my own, but I didn’t like, I didn’t like go to all the parties that they went to or stuff like that. Uhm, I didn’t like go to the football games or anything, I just hung out with my friends. And like, I had a really close group of friends. Like, one of my closest friends that I used to sit with at lunch every day, every time like, we had trimesters, and we’d always switch lunches and stuff like that, and somehow he always ended up in my lunch, but Drake Black goes to uhm GVSU, and we went to high school together. Uhm, but yeah, he was one of my close friends. I just had this close circle, like, if we hung out after school we’d all hang out, like a bunch of stoners. (All laugh). Jordan: But, like we’d just hang out and do our thing, and uhm, but it was a lot of fun. I found a lot more enjoyment with life by just enjoying it, instead of seeking it out and throughout my high school years when I was living with my mom I was so angry all the time, like, I was such a bitch. That’s how I got to popular, because there were like these girls that would like, think they were all that, and I would just go up and say it to their face, you’re fat and you’re nasty and you’re a piece of shit get the heck out of here. Ya know, I’d just like, I would just give it to them and everyone loved that. Like, they loved having that person who would just say it to their face because no one else would. Ya know, you’d be like “Oh my god I hate that girl, she’s so stupid. I wish someone would just go up and tell her”, and I would be like, I’ll do it. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: It was just all my anger, and I’ve always been ruthless like that. (Laughter again). Julie: And did your friends, and your friends knew. Did you ever talk to them about it? Or they just knew? Jordan: Uhm, my friends at Decatur didn’t know. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Like, I mean I’m sure they had their suspicions. Julie: And you never talked about it? Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Now they know. I mean, if you saw the outfit that I showed up in for graduation there, like I went back and watched all my friends walk, of course. Uhm, but if you saw what I wore, it was pretty obvious. And like, I just, once I moved to Plainwell I stopped caring what people thought, and so I just kinda like, if people asked if I was gay I would be like, yeah (laughs) I am. Julie: But, before uhm, you moved there, you said you would say no? Or would you deny it? Jordan: Yeah, I would totally deny it. Page 11 �Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: I wasn’t comfortable there. And plus it was like a total hick town, but, the thing is like I’ve gone back totally openly gay, and like, when I wear shorts, I wear short shorts. Like, ya know and like, in the summer, I’m totally dressed like a slut, but. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: Like I went back there, and like, they all still like, treat me the same. Which just goes to show ya, like the people that lived there. They were good people. Julie: Yeah, definitely. Julie: Uhm, so, who was the hardest person to tell in your life, or, Jordan: Is going to be? Julie: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Jordan: Uhm, probably my dad because he is so oblivious. Julie: Really? Jordan: Yes, like. I, I’m the biggest girl in the world. He likes to hunt, and like do all this stuff. Like don’t get me wrong, I can shoot a gun like no other. I was down, I went shooting down with Greg at the shooting range, like when you shoot the clay pigeons, well, I went down there and there’s just like all these manly men with their guns and I’m like walkin up in some tight ass jeans with Ugg boots and my hair and a scarf. And like, they’re just looking at me like, what the fuck is this kid doing here? (Laughter) Jordan: I get out there with my gun, just, bam bam bam! (Laughter again) Jordan: And they’re just like, (mouth open). Cause I shot better than like most of them. Like my dad’s always taken me shooting and stuff like that. He tried to get me into hunting but, my first time deer hunting I swear to God I just sat there, I was just like (crosses his legs and looks up in the air and sighs many times). Jordan: (All laugh). Really? I’m goin back, I’m gonna eat (he laughs). Sat out there for maybe an hour (we laugh). And then I was like, this is stupid. Julie: But you don’t think that your dad knows? Jordan: Umm, like, my, my step mom has like said things to my siblings, and my siblings have said things to me about her saying things to them about it, and like, my dad is just so oblivious to it. And it’s like so weird, like because, any time he wants to do something. Like, he likes to garden and I’m like ew dad, no. I don’t like dirt; it gets underneath my fingernails (we laugh). It dries out my hands, and it’s disgusting! Page 12 �(All laugh again). Jordan: And, uh, it’s just so bad because he’s seriously like, sooo straight. It’s ridiculous. Like my dad’s a whore. Well, like not right now but he was. (Laughter). He’s just like, pussy pussy pussy. And he’s always talking about it still, still to this day. And I’m just like, ew. (All laugh again loudly). Julie: Uhm, who would be the easiest person to tell and why? Jordan: Like, that I haven’t already told? Julie: Yeah. Julie: Or who was the easiest person, that you just knew from the minute that you were gonna tell them, it was gonna be okay? Jordan: The easiest person to tell was probably my best friend in Plainwell High School. Her name was Kelly. Have you met Kelly? (Looks over at his friend). Ginger, long hair. Red hair, she’s like the prettiest ginger you’ll ever see, because a pretty one doesn’t come around that often. Uhm, but yeah, she’s probably the easiest just because like, as I said, when I moved to Plainwell I just didn’t care anymore. Like I just wanted to be liked for me. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like.. Julie: And what happened, how did she react? Jordan: She loved it. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, have you ever met a girl who doesn’t want a girl best friend? Julie: (Everyone shakes head, agrees) I know, what? (Everyone laughs) Jordan: Like I.. Julie: So true. Jordan: Like, when I was in high school I’d get all these girls that would like, wanted to go shopping with me, blah blah blah, and stuff like that, and to me, like, that’s not what makes a friend. Like my best friend Kelly, like that, we were best friends through high school, we were still just talking today, she texted me but I ignored it today because I was out, but, uhm, like we still talk all the time that’s where I got the cat from. And like, we’ve been shopping together once. And it didn’t happen until two years after we were best friends. (All laugh). Page 13 �Jordan: Like, that just goes to show you all these girls come up and go, let’s go shopping blah blah blah, it’s just like, I’m lookin for real friends, not these girls that just want me to go shopping with them just because they think I have good taste. Like, you can just tell, everyone wants a best gay friend. Julie: Okay, uhm, are you involved in anything like, community outreach, or something like that? Or were you in high school? Jordan: Uhm, I did not do anything in high school. Extra curricular was not my thing. I hated high school with a passion that burned like the sun. I loved friends, I loved going in there every day like and, seriously throughout entire high school I didn’t care where I was, never wore sweatpants to school. Always in jeans, always dressed up, always did my hair, like a bad hair day happened.. twice in my entire 4 years. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Yeah, like I never just put it up in a clip or something. Like I always, I always did it. So it was just like always perfect there. And like, uhm, I just, I went for the friends. I hated high school and I didn’t want to help out my school at all. I didn’t do any of that. Depending on the job that I get when I’m up here, because of what I’m looking into, uhm (chuckles), it will determine. Because I thought, maybe getting into some charities, for uhm, people who have had siblings or something that are involved in meth, or helping a little bit in the gay community, but I believe that the gays are fine they’re just big drama queens. (All laugh). Julie: Uhm, how did you feel after you told people, uh, did you think it was a mistake? Do you have any doubts, or? Jordan: Uhm, the first person I ever told was my best friend Matt. Julie: And, how old were you? Jordan: I was, in 7th grade. Wait no, probably 8th grade. Because we were friends all throughout 6th, and like what not, and like we were just best friends so I mean, I knew I had to tell him. So basically I just started toying around with him, because I was always, always very “toyative” with people. Uhm, I don’t even know if that’s a real world. (We all laugh). Jordan: But it described and uhm. Like that’s what, I uh, kind of toyed around with the idea. He thought I was just joking at first, and then I told him and he took it really well so eventually he kinda just found out that for, legit I was and he took it just fine, so after that, I mean I still went through high school with an indicator like, trying to like, just keep my rep the way it was. Keep myself at the top, cause in a school like that you don’t want to fall down to the bottom. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 14 �Jordan: And uhm, (laughs), yeah. Julie: Uhm, have you dated anyone, like, for a long time, or recently? Jordan: It’s funny that you, brought that up because, 3 days ago was my anniversary for being single for 3 years. (Laughs) So way to bring that up! Julie: (All laugh), sorry! Jordan: No, the way I look at it is, the only thing that I’ve ever had is a one night stand, which, I mean, that’s just the kind of person I am. Julie: And, do you like that? Is that, would you want a relationship? Jordan: Eventually. But where I’m going in life, I don’t want anything gettin in the way of that. Like I see all my girlfriends that like, go out and they date these guys and then they feel like shit afterwards and then like, they fuck with them and it’s just so much boy drama… I don’t want any of that. Like, right now Julie: You just want to have fun. Jordan: I just want to have fun. Honestly there’s nothin wrong with me being the way that I am I don’t think. Like, I’ve never really felt the urge to, like I mean I went on a date today, but, like, just out to lunch, but. Julie: But you do date people? Jordan: I mean, it depends. Like, I’m waitin for the right one. I’m very picky. I mean I’ve gone out with people, but I’ve never dated them dated them. Like, this is my boyfriend. (Ha). Like I’ve never had that, I mean, basically when I get a little bit tipsy I get a little slutty, and one thing leads to another, and I have a night of fun and that’s it. And then I’m content for awhile. Krysten: How do you meet these people? Jordan: I’ll meet them at a party, online, whatever. Like, don’t worry, online I’m very careful. (He laughs). I’m not like, okay let’s meet right now! You can come over no one’s here. (All laugh). Jordan: No, it’s like, I’m very careful. I make them send me like multiple pictures, and if any of them look photo edited, or like, like, like, you just went to Google and googled someone hot, and like put them on there. Hell no, you’re not comin anywhere near me. Like I’m very careful about it, but cause like I might be a blonde, and I might be a little bit ditzy, and I mean, but I got a brain on me. (Laughs) Krysten: That’s good. Jordan: Not gonna lie about it (he laughs). Julie: Uhm, what is your definition of discrimination? Page 15 �Jordan: Like, what do you mean? Julie: Just, whatever you feel like, if… if anyone’s ever discriminated against you, and what you think? Jordan: I’ve never been offended by much. As I said, I feel like the gay community’s just a bunch of drama queens and they just need to chill out. Like, I went to hick town high school and I was just fine there. Like, if I can make it through that then.. they can make it through crap. I mean, the word “faggot” pisses me off, only if it’s said multiple times. Like, but that’s a fightin word. If someone called you a faggot wouldn’t you like, get ready to beat their ass? (We laugh). Jordan: Yeah, if someone came up and was just like, faggot, like, no one likes that word. But, that’s probably the only word like, gay discriminative that I don’t like. But if like someone just says it to me when I’m walking past them, then I’m just like, whatever. But, no one has ever really discriminated against me in a way that’s really upset me. Julie: Okay. DeVonte: Have you ever been mistreated, like after you came out? Jordan: Uhm, I mean, like when I went, in high school at Plainwell, I had this like, class, and it was just like, oh my God it was wretched. It was a math class, and of course I got stuck with, and it was the only class that I’ve ever had to take for an entire year at Plainwell. Uhm, because we run on trimesters so every twelve weeks we get new classes, new schedules, new teachers, new everything. Which I loved that about it, because it was more collegy. Like, less prisoney. (Laughs). Jordan: And uhm, these, this class of people was the one that I got stuck with for 3 trimesters because it was, uhm, a 1.5 credit class and uhm, which is just awesome that I got an extra credit for doing stuff that people would only get one credit from, but, like, there was me, and then there was this weird girl that sat above me, in front of me, or no it was this kid, and then this weird girl, and then there was just weird people. Ya know, like just those nerdy kids that no one talks to. (Laughs). Well they all sat around me and I kind of sat in the back of them, and there was like the punk ass kids that thought they were too cool, in a little L, and there was probably 4 of them. And then on the other side they would all move their desks to the other side, it was like, oh my god, it was like, the trailer park, like, nasty, like redneck hillbillies, oh my god, they were completely wretched (laughter). And they would sit there and make derogatory comments about everything and about everybody, and the stuff that came out of their mouth, you could tell they were just so uneducated, and like, like, half of them failed the class. It was just really, really dumb. Like, I mean, and, they’d sit there and some of them would bash on me, and like, I’d just smile, and be like “stupid idiots”. Because I got the highest grade in the class. I passed Algebra II with a fucking 98, beat that (laughs). Page 16 �Jordan: Uhm, like I’d always wear Uggs, and they used to like say, “girl boots”, and like, like, just like, say something, like, crap what would they say. Something about I’ll whoop your ass in your girl boots, or whatever, but then I just think to myself and say, why the fuck do you even care? Julie: Mhm-hm. Julie: And what did people around you say, like what did they think or did they do anything or did they just like? Jordan: I have like, like Tara, when she sees people look at me bad, like she goes full force, like bitch on them. Like we were sittin at Cedar Point, and there were these two little girls and they were (laughs) 9 or 10, (all laugh) and they like look back at me, and the one goes up to the other one and goes, “he’s gay”. Tara’s like, “YES, he is”. (Everyone laughs loudly). Jordan: And then they’d like, keep looking back, and then Tara would just be like “What bitch”? Her parents are right there and they kind of look back, and I’d like look at them like, “what, do something bitch”? Like, she fires me up about it. I don’t usually notice anymore, cause like I just live my life and focus on what I’m doing, and like, that’s just how I am but she’ll point it out to me and be like, “that bitch over there just gave you a dirty look” and then I’ll be like (covers his mouth) Oh my god (all laugh). And just stare her down, and make them feel so comfortable that they have to leave. You’re pathetic (laughs). I win. (we all laugh). DeVonte: Do you think you have like, influenced other people to come out? Jordan: No. Julie: Do you have any friends..? Jordan: Uhm, my friend Drake that I was telling you about that goes to GVSU, he’s probably my only gay friend. Uhm, the thing is, like, have you noticed that girls hang out with girls, and guys hang out with guys. Well, I’ve always been like a girl so, I’ve always hung out with the girls, so when it comes to gay friends, it’s like I don’t really have any because I don’t really hang out with boys. And like, the, extremely flamboyant like, gay people, like I just don’t like them very much because I feel like, I feel like they’re kind of annoying, (laughs) just a little bit. And I know I’m annoying to some people, because they can’t, they don’t like seeing that, but ya know, I feel like they’re always out for drama and like, always out to see who did this, who did that, and like, they’re attention seekers like no other, and it annoys me. So, I don’t have a lot of gay friends. Julie: Is your friend Drake, uhm, did he come out before you, after you? Jordan: Before I think? Julie: Okay, so you knew him. Jordan: But, I give him props for that because he was at that school his entire life and he did it. Page 17 �Julie: Wow. Jordan: Where, I moved schools, and then did it. Which, moving schools is scary, but, the people you grew up with, having to tell them that, like after, like hiding it for so long. And he’s not the kind of gay kid that you can tell is gay. Like, he’d have to tell you. Like, and those are the kind I like. I just like real people. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: You do what you do. DeVonte: So, when you came out, how was it? Were you relieved, or like? Jordan: It kind of just happened (laughs). Julie: It’s just kind of new still? Jordan: No, it’s just a part of who I am, I mean like, you don’t go up to someone and like, I would never go up to someone and say, “Hi I’m Jordan, I’m gay”. (All agree). Jordan: Just like you wouldn’t go up to someone and say “Hi I’m Rachel, I’m straight”. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, you just don’t do it. Like, it’s just a part of who I am. Like I mean, if you want to know, I’ll tell ya. Like, it didn’t really change a lot in my life, other than the fact that I didn’t feel like I had to hide it anymore. I was able to become more myself than I ever was. And like, my friend Holly, she knew me before and after. And like, she sees me after, and she’s like, “I’m so glad, cause it’s not like you weren’t fun before, but you’re like ten times more fun now just because you let go, you let loose”. Uhm, so I’ve always been kind of like a loose canyon, just letting it go, and doing what I want to do. I don’t care what people think. Uhm, except old people. I don’t like to be around old people. (Laughter) Jordan: Like, I feel like there always lookin at me. (Laughter again). There always sittin there and watchin me, and those are the kind of people that I mind being judged by (he laughs). It’s like oh god! So, I, will never work at nursing home, or like Julie: You would never do their hair? Jordan: No! I just don’t like old people. Like, and that’s another reason why I would never wanna work in a salon. Like, old people come get their hair permed, and stuff like that. And then like, the last when I was working reception at Rivé, I got Connie’s client Wilma come in there, and she was tryin to convert me to born again Christian, and I was like, lady I’ve been through all of that (laughs), and she was like “Well you just give me a call when you go to church” and I’m all like well I’m gonna be busy the next couple of weeks. (All laugh). And she’s like, “well the Lord is, you don’t make time for the Lord he’s Page 18 �gonna come get chu”. Or something like that, and then like, like, it was just crazy and I never called her. And then like, last time I went into Rivé I brought my friend Haley lunch cause we were really tight when we worked there; she does hair there and uhm I brought her lunch, and I like call her and I’m like, fuck it’s Thursday, is Wilma comin in? (All laugh). Cause I mean, I still remember like, the, weeklys, like the people who come in and I’m like, oh crap it’s Thursday. Aww, she comes in to get her hair done on Thursday and I just had to call and make sure she wasn’t comin in cause I didn’t wanna run into her. “You never called me, the Lord shouldn’t have to wait for you”. (All laugh again). And like, it was just too much, it’s just like, I live my life the way I wanna live it. That’s another example of my, religious beliefs (laughs), so. DeVonte: Do you think your parents would like, accept the fact that you are a homosexual? Jordan: Yeah, I just don’t want to deal with it right now. Like it’s just not something that I want to do right now. Right now I’m very content keeping them out of my life, like I don’t expect them to like, like if one day I get married, I don’t want them there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, that kind of thing. It’s just weird I don’t want them there. Julie: Why though? Jordan: I don’t know, like, I shouldn’t really care because, I mean I don’t care what people think, but I believe that gayness is passed down, uhm. I believe it’s genetic. I don’t know how it started spreading so fast lately, I think it’s because everyone’s just like not scared anymore, but I feel like it’s always been there. Uhm, because my grandpa, who is dead (laughs) now, he was gay. And uhm, he grew up back when that wasn’t okay, so, he married my grandma and everything like that and they were married their whole lives cause they were very strict Catholics. Uhm, but, she used to own a store in Grosse Point, where they sold baskets, flowers, and stuff like that. I don’t know, they just did it cause they liked it they were already like multi-millionaires and like, lost it all because they were stupid. (All laugh). Jordan: It’s cause they were selfish, they gave us like 15 bucks for Christmas every year, I was like fuck you bastards. You have a $20 million dollar house and you’re giving us 15 bucks for Christmas. (Laughter). Jordan: But uhm, Julie: And when did he come out? Did you know? Jordan: He didn’t. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, my grandma caught him with a man. At Grosse Point, made him pick everything up and that’s how they ended up in Harbor Springs. Page 19 �Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Which is where my grandma still is. Julie: And they didn’t stay, they stayed together? Jordan: Yep, Catholics… crazy. Julie: Did you know him? Jordan: Yeah, oh yeah. He just died last year. Julie: Okay. Jordan: But (laughs), sorry his funeral was hilarious. (All laugh and are confused). Jordan: I know that’s like sick sounding, but, oh my god it was just funny. Like I was sittin there just holding the coffin, and like, the priest or whatever comes up and there are like little boys in white robes and he like rubs his face and sprinkles the holy water at my grandfather’s coffin, and he turns over and rubs the other little boy’s face and sprinkles more on their with his little thing and I’m just like sitting there holding my dead grandpa’s coffin, and I’m like (starts cracking up). I had soars on the inside of my mouth that day from holding my laughter in. (All laugh). Cause like, and they would change like, “bless the father, bless the mother” all together and I was like, what the hell? Then they’d be talking some jibberish and it was like, scary, it was like what the hell is going on? I’m like, I had my nails painted and everything for that one, so I’m goin up to take communion and I like took the bread, and I’m like this bread is gonna be like dry as fuck I’m gonna wait until I get to the wine to eat it. And then he like stops me and is like “No! You eat it here!” And he looked right at my nails and he was like, like, I should’ve just been like, yep that’s right! (laughs). It was just like, that thing. But my Uncle, uhm, which is my dad’s brother. He lives over in Detroit, he’s also gay. So far it’s hit every generation for the last 3, so I told my brother, you’re gettin gay kids (laughs). Ha Ha! Julie: Are you close with your Uncle? Jordan: No, no he’s, he kind of lives in his own little world. Which is what I want someday. Like, I mean they get together for thanksgiving and Christmas, and his partner comes with him. He’s got a partner, and his partner’s kind of a bitch, but he’s really funny. But uhm, like that’s just what they do. They show up for important events. And that’s what I’ll plan on doing some day. But, as far as having my family live next door and see them all the time, and have them come play with the grandkids, like that kind of stuff, like that’s not happening. That is not happening; I’m livin my own life and I don’t want you guys all over in it (laughs). Julie: Do you want to get married? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: So you see yourself getting married and having kids? Page 20 �Jordan: Yeah, I have my fantasy planned out like every teenage girl does. Julie: Would you mind sharing? (All laugh). Jordan: Uhm, I, I mean, when, when I am where I fully wanna be, uhm. Actually I had a dream the other day, and it was really scary because I ended up getting killed in it. But it was like everything I’ve ever wanted and then my husband tried to kill me and then he eventually did but. And then for some reason I, okay no I can’t get into the details of everything (All laugh again). Jordan: But uhm, not sexually (laughter), but it goes on forever there’s so many details. But uhm… uhm.. what I want someday is, like.. just like the perfect family for me. Like, I want two kids, boys cause I hate little girls. Like I mean if I could just skip like, if they could start out as a baby, and then like, skip like 4-14 with a girl, I’d take a daughter but like you can’t skip those ages and I absolutely hate them through those ages, like, I mean I didn’t even like Charlie (looks to his friend). Like I really didn’t like Charlie and the only reason I could tolerate Morgan was cause she was so dumb (everyone laughs). But uhm, yeah, so I want two sons that’s it. Uhm, I already have them named. But uhm, and then I wanna wake up in the morning, and just, get up, get my kids ready, take them to school, go do some celebrities hair, like go work out and run some errands, go pick up my kids, and then just spend the rest of the day with them. Like, cook dinner, wait for the hubby to get home, like that kind of thing. Julie: But you want like, a kind of more traditional, it sounds like you want more of a traditional, like go cook dinner for your husband, take care of the kids.. Jordan: Yeah, I mean, that’s how I feel it should be. Julie: Okay, is that how your family was or? Jordan: In a way yeah. I mean my mom and step mom have always cooked for my dad and stuff like that, but I mean I want to be able, like my mom was very neglecting. Like I don’t think she liked to be around very much, especially when I was home schooled she was never really around. Which was weird because she was supposed to be home schooling me (laughs). Uhm, like she was never around and like, I mean I feel like that’s, that’s why I was so, like fucked up for awhile. And like seriously, I, I had a drug addiction when I was like 16 that I got myself out of. Like I was snortin adderal up the nose, every day, all day, 3 times a day, never slept, never ate, and then in between adderals I was taking vicadin up the nose. I was just, totally crazy and people would see it, and like, eventually someone told me, but I don’t want my kids to ever have to do that and like, I’ve hidden my whole life from my parents. Like what they see is just, my bedroom and like, and what I go out in, which sometimes I would have to change in the car because I was not going to dress like that when I went out, and like that kind of thing so, like I mean I know, like I started wearing short shorts around my dad, which is kind of weird but I keep them at a decent length. Like up here (points to the middle of his thigh) instead of like right there (moves his hand slightly up). I have changed in my car, like after I left my house so they didn’t ask or anything, and like, say something about what I was wearing. That kind of thing. Uhm, but I have had to hide my life Page 21 �from them and I don’t want to do that with my kids. Like I want them to tell me everything if they’re going to go drop acid with their friends I want them to tell me. Like, (laughs), like I mean… and I just want that, that, nice bond. Like that’s more of my traditional views on that. DeVonte: Uhm, would you ever consider getting an operation done? Jordan: No. Julie: Why? Jordan: When I was in my mom’s stomach she got an ultrasound done. Sorry, I’m gonna open a window I’m hot. (Opens window and talks about it locking). Jordan: But uhm, I would never get that done cause I feel like I was made this way. When I was in my mom’s stomach she got an ultrasound done and I was supposed to be a girl and I came out a boy, like, Julie: Oh really? Jordan: Yeah.. that goes to tell you something. And, I feel like I mean if you’re gonna go get an operation that’s your business, but I feel like you were put on the earth the way you are for a reason, to fit someone’s puzzle. Ya know? Like I mean I feel like everyone’s a puzzle piece just waiting to fill up someone’s puzzle. Like ya know? And that’s what I’m waiting for that’s why I don’t really date. (Laughs). Cause I haven’t found the right one. Julie: Mhm-hm. DeVonte: Do you think it was more of a friendly environment in Plainwell than it was in Decatur? Jordan: Uhm…. Yes and no. I felt like in high school there were more assholes at Plainwell, but uhm, I just did my own thing. So I didn’t pay attention to them. Like, I mean I just, like I got bothered less, just because I didn’t pay attention to them, but. I mean after my brother’s class, my brother was in high school, he was a senior when I was a freshman and we were in the same school and after he graduated, like all those like assholes left, and then I was fine. So, I mean… they were, they were probably equal, like I never really got bothered that much. My dad’s a cop, everyone knew it. You don’t fuck with the cop’s kid. (Everyone laughs). DeVonte: Do you currently have a job right now? Jordan: Uhm, I don’t. I’m really workin on it. What I’m getting into is, webcaming. Uhm, I know that sounds like, bad, but like, for the money I’m gonna be making from it, it’s not that bad and uhm, basically what’s gonna happen is I’ll sit there and talk to people, and if they want to take me into private they’ll have to pay $8 a minute. Like 8 something a minute, and basically they can see what they want, but. And then they can call me anytime, uhm, they just call an 800 number and uhm, it’ll be directed towards my phone number so it’s kept completely private. Page 22 �Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And it’s 3-4 dollars a minute for every minute that they talk to me on the phone. So, uhm. Julie: Wow. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: Where did you think of this idea? Jordan: Dr. Phil (everyone laughs). Julie: And are you like, gonna start it up soon or have you been thinking about it for awhile? Jordan: Well, I just sent in my papers yesterday. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, for them to prove that I’m 18. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: So I can start doing that. Checks come in the mail every Tuesday. And, like, seriously you work whenever you want, you just go into your bedroom, turn on the webcam, and at the end of it you walk away with $300 and some bucks. I, I mean, there’s people that sit on that for 3 hours, and they make just under a grand. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Could you imagine working for 3 hours and making that much money? Julie: That’s crazy. Jordan: That’s why I’m gettin into it. I mean, I knew I was gonna end up doin something dirty. I’ve checked out stripping, but, I mean it’s just I’d rather have the privacy of my own home. And, choose who gets to come into my sanctuary (he laughs). (We all laugh). Jordan: Uhm, even though stripping is something that like sounds really fun, the thing about me is that, like, I was a die hard partier. Like I was 16, just got my car, ya know, just escaped my mom. I was die hard partier. Partying every night. Like, just, that was when I had my problem (laughs). Uhm, so like I’ve always been a partier, I’ve always been a little bit crazy. Uhm, I have one-night stands so, it’s like, I’m clearly not that conservative about those kind of things. Like, I feel like that does come a little bit with the gayness, but at the same time, not everybody’s like that. So I don’t know, I think it’s just my personality, I mean, I, I don’t think of myself any less for it. Jordan: (He laughs). You all shook your head at the same time, that was really funny. Jordan: Haha yeah that was weird. Page 23 �Krysten: How did you move up to Grand Rapids? Jordan: Uhm, I moved up here for school. Uhm, Aveda Institute is right downtown it’s where I’m going. Krysten: Oh, I’ve been there it’s nice. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: It’s so nice. Jordan: Yeah when I saw it, I fell in love with it. Uhm, come get your hair done by me. (He laughs). Jordan: Cause then, when I become famous you can be like, “he did my hair”. (We all laugh). Krysten: It’s pricey. Jordan: Yeah, it will be pricey someday; it won’t be when I’m in school. Krysten: Well, for me to go in and get it done it’s still pretty pricey. Jordan: Oh, yeah, (laughs). I mean, I’ve got a bunch of fake hair glued to my head so, yeah (laughs). My salon bill’s not very nice either. (We all laugh). DeVonte: Are there any books or movies that you feel are most connected with? Jordan: Uhm, (looks confused), no Brokeback Mountain! Just kidding. (We all laugh). Jordan: As far as movies go… I’d have to say my favorite is Easy A. (The girls agree). Julie and Krysten: That is a good movie. Jordan: She is so like.. like I feel like that sums up a little bit of who I am. Like, minus the fact that of like, like, how conservative she actually was. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I’m the kind of person who could do that. Like, I mean, I just don’t have that emotion. Like that, that, guilt factor. Ya know? I just loved her in that movie, like I felt like, that was just, wow! (Laughs). As far as books go, I don’t read. Ever (laughs again). No, scratch that. I have read a series it’s called Pen Dragon but it didn’t really relate to me at all. It was just really cool ha. Like it put Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings to shame (we all laugh again). Page 24 �DeVonte: Uhm, when you go to the restroom do you go to the male or female? Jordan: I do go to the girls, and that is strictly for comfort reasons. I am ten times more comfortable peeing in a woman’s bathroom than a men’s. Uhm, depending on my level of intoxication, is whether or not I stand up or sit down. (Everyone laughs). And, what I feel like, it’s basically what I feel like. If I go in there, and it’s a bunch of girls in there I’ll sit down so they don’t question because… ya know if you see the feet pointing the other way you’re gonna be like, what the hell? Julie: Yeah. Jordan: But uhm, yeah, so that’s basically that. Just out of comfort. Julie: Do you ever go into the men’s, or did you ever? Jordan: When I’m with my dad I’ll go into the men’s. DeVonte: And does it feel awkward going into the men’s? Jordan: Oh yeah. I see urinals and I’m like what the hell? Julie: Do people look at you differently or? Jordan: No, but when I’m with my dad I usually tone it down. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Yeah (laughs). Julie: By the way you dress, and so on. Jordan: Yep. Julie: Okay. Julie: So, what do you hope, or what do you feel like politics, and gay marriage and everything that’s going on right now. Do you ever watch the news? Do you think it interests you? Jordan: I feel like the news to me is one of the biggest wastes of time. Because me being the single person that I am, there’s nothing I can do. Like I’ve watched my whole entire life my dad, and my step mom, and everybody watch the news, and get pissed off as hell. Like, just pissed, and like, stressed out over it, but you know what? At the end of the day you can’t do anything, so why worry yourself with it. So like, I don’t watch the news. I don’t pay attention to politics. As far as gay marriage goes, uhm, I feel like, there needs to be something. I mean, maybe if you think that marriage is between a man and a woman, it’s that. Maybe you should come up with something new for the gays, I don’t know. I don’t care. It’s just when it comes down to it I want something like.. like that, says, listen this is my man, and if he leaves me I’m gettin half his shit. (All laugh and agree). Page 25 �Jordan: If you cheat on me I’m gettin it all. (Laughter again). Jordan: I also have a very unique cheating possibility if you want to hear that. Julie: Yeah, definitely. Krysten: Sure. Jordan: Okay. Uhm, when it comes to that, I feel like, like after awhile human beings are very sexual beings, considering that humans and dolphins are the only like, things that have sex for pleasure. Krysten: I’ve heard that. Jordan: Yeah, so I feel like humans are really sexual beings, and I feel like your first five years of marriage should be completely special and you should be completely loyal to your partner, uhm, but after that, if you feel the need to cheat, or like go sleep with someone else, like you just can’t get it out of your head and it’s all you think about, stuff like that. Uhm, I feel like, you should be able to do it. But, rule 1, you’re not gonna spend the night over there. You’re not gonna sleep in their bed with them. It’s gonna be sex strictly and you’re gonna come home and look me in the eyes and you’re gonna tell me exactly what happened and if you can’t do that, then it’s obviously not that important to you. Like you know.. like that’s just how I feel about it cause like I’d rather have someone, like, tell me it’s gonna happen and like, I need to do this, I need to do this to get over it, and if you can look me in the eye and do it, then obviously it was at that point, but I don’t feel, I feel like the divorce rate is so high because of that. Because people can’t realize how much of a sexual being humans are and the needs that they have. The needs, the desires, like, civilizations have fallen from peoples desires and wants. Like, I mean, just give them a little space, give them a little wiggle room (laughs). Julie: Uhm, but, so, do you, you don’t really care if there was gay marriage legalized nationwide? Jordan: Everywhere where I wanna live it’s legal (laughs). Julie: Yeah. Jordan: New York, L.A. Jordan: Like, I mean I’m good with that. If they wanna call it something else, go for it and make the little Christian people happy, but, Jordan: As you’re wearing a what would Jesus do bracelet (he laughs). (We all laugh). Jordan: Yeah, it’s no big deal I’m just messin with you. (Laughter again). Page 26 �Jordan: I’m sorry, but uhm, I mean I think that’s the biggest thing, with the gays right now. Like I mean, marriage. Like, I don’t think it’s a big deal. Like I mean, and as I said, gays are drama queens. Like, just get over it. I mean, I do think they need to fight for the right to be bound together, but, I mean call it somethin else, make it somethin else, cause, initially marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. And I do, believe that. But I mean, will I get married someday? Hell yeah. But. Julie: What advice do you have to anyone, for someone, that is coming out? If you have any? Jordan: Just do it. Do it on your own terms, do what feels right. Suck it up and just do it. Like, cause honestly it’s who you are and if you can’t live as who you are you’re not livin. Julie: Yup. Julie: Uhm, do you have any regrets about coming out, or telling people, or what their reactions or anything like that or no? Jordan: No, I’ve never had any regrets. I mean, I am who I am. And like I’ve gotten to that point where uhm, just the way I grew up, with the childhood, moving around, like all that stuff that I’ve grown into. That’s a lot. That’s a lot than what most like people, go through, as like, growing up. Uhm, like, just the way that my life has been set up, I’ve lived a lot more than most people would. So I’ve had more experience, I have that knowledge so I know that I just don’t live with regrets. Like I’m completely happy, living like this. I don’t know, I think I got kind of sidetracked in this. Julie: (Laughs). No that’s good. Jordan: Okay. Julie: Do you have any other comments that you want to say? Jordan: What’s it like to be straight? No (everyone laughs). Julie: I know now you’re going to ask us questions. (Laughter continues). Jordan: No, I’m just kidding I know what it’s like to be that. Uhm…. Julie: Have you ever been with a girl? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: And, did enjoy it or? Jordan: I mean.. Rachel: (Jordan's friend) Do you remember how you told me? Jordan: About what? Page 27 �Rachel: Like when you were with a female rather than a male, ya know like the feeling or whatever. Like that feeling you get. Jordan: Yeah, I mean it still feels good, it’s a vagina. Rachel: No, I mean remember you told me, like you said like, you know how like, when you’re with someone, and you get like, not like the feeling of like, sex, or whatever, but like that connection or whatever? How you said that you didn’t get with a girl. Jordan: No, yeah you just don’t get it. Like when I see a hot guy I’m like holy shit. Like you know when you go out with someone for the first time and you’re like really into him, and like, you get those butterflies and you feel crazy, stuff like that. You don’t get that. You don’t get that sexual build-up, the sexual tension, just being like, just, ah. Basically, you don’t get that. And that just goes to show that it’s not a choice because like I mean I’ve tried. Like, who hasn’t tried? Honestly? And, you know what, that’s probably the one thing that I regret… is hiding myself for so long. Julie: And trying to feel, were you trying to like the person that you were with or something? Jordan: Yeah, I mean like I liked them, and then like there were times when I like, I was like, I want to date this person. But the more I thought about it, is like, I mean, after about a month I’m gonna lose interest in them and not want to go any farther with this person and it’s not fair to them, so yeah. That’s another reason why I haven’t dated because after awhile I’ll just lose interest and not even want too. END OF INTERVIEW Page 28 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b0f462f9fa755005c9fdebd71401a7fd.mp3 3addb888916f0006ef1c95fe22975e35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Serla_Jordan Title A name given to the resource Jordan Serla audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Serla, Jordan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Doescher, Julie Jones, DeVonte Velderman, Krysten Description An account of the resource Jordan Serla discusses growing up gay in a small town. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e46dd42913fa39e0d89e017fac03a01.pdf 6ff3ff948c0b4a00420d87ec0243a107 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vitae XII Caesarum [folium 174] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_174Seutonius1493 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seutonius Tranquillus Description An account of the resource One leaf from Vitae XII Caesarum by Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus. Printed in Bologna by Benedictus Hectoris on April 5, 1493. [GW M44198; ISTC is00825000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Bologna: Benedictus Hectoris Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1493 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/663324587731c379dc61eef043e88d5d.pdf d3183aff46b7b3d57b962e959735aa43 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4379 Title A name given to the resource Letter from William Henry Seward to Richard M. Blatchford Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1863 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seward, William Henry, 1801-1872 Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Seward, William Henry, 1801-1872 United States. Department of State Blatchford, Richard Milford, 1798-1875 Description An account of the resource Letter from William Henry Seward, Sec. of State under Abraham Lincoln, to the Hon. R.M. Blatchford Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81100e2a8e4baed52130447ea43e8744.mp4 b20525354c75a0f82ffd9e341180cba3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5dba19c8fde8253c535f853153e5fa0.pdf 020168dcd62294edf50b3010c7f72eb2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: If we could begin, Ambassador, with your background before you entered the Military? KONSIN SHAH: When Japan invaded China, I was in college studying electronic engineering. And I was in Shanghai. And then Japan bombed and I thought terrible holocaust in my people and so, I wanted to join the Air Force. But then, I was the only son of a widow, the Military thought they could exempt me but then I got my mother's consent to join. And then I left Shanghai by way of Hong Kong, Hanoi, and then to go to the Aviation School. But then the Aviation school did not fly me because the Aviation school had provisions that only sons do not fly. And so I joined the Army. The Army had no prescriptions. And I was trained in pack. But after the battle of Kwin Kwan [?], then the Air Force changed, their personnel, their regulation and they said that only sons could fly, but only with parental condoned. And my mother wrote to the Chief of the Air Force that she allowed me to fly. When I was in Yunnanyi, we had, Yunnanyi was attacked by the Japanese bombers and the pursuit planes stationed in Thailand and our airplanes were burnt. We were without airplane and without gasoline. And we flew maybe 2 hours of 3 hours a week and down to 20 minutes a week. We could have been trained as pilots in a year or more, but it took 3 �years. But then as I was graduating, the American Lend Lease came into effect. And I was the third group to leave for America. And I thought the American volunteer group landed in Mitna [?], in Yunnanyi. And I was the supervisor of daily Routine and we welcomed them to a feast. Then we were on our way to India and flew to the United States. But I was kept as an instructor, teaching mainly Chinese cadets and sort of American cadets, because at that time I had the instrument instructor’s qualification. Then the American pilots which the American pilots does not have, I checked out the Chinese and American students to fly an instrument toward the last year I thought that the war was going ahead very well. We were terribly afraid that we could not join combat. We will be skipping combat. FRANK BORING: If you would, I realize this is somewhat painful for you, but if you could recall your personal recollection of the bombing of Shanghai, anytime you're ready. FRANK BORING: If you could recall the first bombings of Shanghai? KONSIN SHAH: I think it was on August 13 and the Japanese bombers came from aircraft carrier or they had come from Taiwan. And they indiscriminately bombed the housing. And Shanghai is a very densely populated area and one bomb claimed hundreds or teams of hundreds of lives, and so the terror created in the population is vast. And they think the terror could make us surrender, but no, the leaders of the nation were determined to fight to the end. FRANK BORING: Did you walk through the city after the bombing itself? KONSIN SHAH: Sure. FRANK BORING: What did you see? �KONSIN SHAH: I, at first, I thought the Shanghai people instituted fight the aggression team, and I was a student. I, at the age of 17, I was able to drive and one fellow student and I drove toward dusk from the international quarters, then we delivered the Shanghai people called the comforting goods, food, clothing and particularly this was in September and October, they, the vest that keep the soldiers warm before daybreak, bring back the wounded soldiers, into the international area. And then we would be able to [?] that the people's homes and that they are indiscriminately bombed. This was behind the front line. Because the line is in the bund but after the bund the Japanese bombers, got too terrible, terrible, for me. I saw this day to day. And then I decided to join the Air Force regardless, they take me or not. FRANK BORING: As an eye witness, any of your memories of the bombing itself, your own personal, one of the things that somebody said, this feeling of watching the bombs drop, and the explosion, if you could describe in your own words, eye witness to this? KONSIN SHAH: When in Shanghai, we travelled at night, to the war zones and the bombing we escaped, but in the interior, 1927, 1928, I saw a great deal of bombing, particularly in Hong Yau [?], I was in the railway station, waiting for a train, then the Jing bow sounded, and I ran only a hundred yards or two hundred yards before the bombs exploded. Right in the railway yard, but then after several hours of repairs, the train pulled though, where I saw the corpse even laid beheaded. There was too much damage done. And they take time to clean the past. FRANK BORING: What was your personal reaction to witnessing all of this? As a Chinese person, what was your reaction? KONSIN SHAH: The hatred is never, never retired. �FRANK BORING: Did you feel that you had some outlet that you could do something about it? How did you think you were going to write this wrong? KONSIN SHAH: By joining the Air Force. The Air Force had rejected me at that time, 1927, 1928. And I was in army training for the tanks. But through our, the Army had trained the tank crew at their mechanized forces school and we travelled through Way Ning [?] and Diluto [?] and through that way I suffered a lot of bombing. This is the rail head and we suffered very much bombing. But I luckily escaped and each time if I had time, I joined the rescue crew but the train was waiting and got through and I had to take the train because I was under military orders. FRANK BORING: Could you describe your experience in the Army. KONSIN SHAH: Yes, in Nu Do, our buildings were scattered along the hillside and the bombing was rather difficult and we suffered the bombing very scarcely until the President [?] came to a conference and we students stood guard. And then the bombing, they had intelligence, and the bombing was suddenly through the vicinity. And our mechanized school students suffered 2 casualties. 2 deaths and a number of people wounded but I then called the Generalissimo to see. FRANK BORING: As a cadet, you were training in a war zone. KONSIN SHAH: Yes. FRANK BORING: If you could explain that please. KONSIN SHAH: When we were trained as an Army officer or an Air Force officer, we were trained in the war zone. We were in the thick of it. �FRANK BORING: What was your first encounter in the Army, what was your first encounter with the Japanese in battle? KONSIN SHAH: Kun Yin Guam [?] in the summer of 1940, I was a probation officer and we were taken to the two hundredth division, a mechanized division. And we were probation officers, we could look but couldn't fight. And then the Japanese were cut off from their supplies and then the Japanese conquered territories were recovered. We saw the prisoners taken and then we saw one prisoner who, when the Army cook, the prisoner was tied up, and the Army cook was going to look after him. And then the soldiers will take other prisoners. And on their way back the cook killed the man. And then he was court marshalled but then the hatred was tremendous. They would risk their lives by killing the Japanese. The officers had better sense but the men, they were deeply in hatred of the Japanese. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 1 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah describes his background before becoming involved with the American Volunteer Group (AVG) and his experiences in Shanghai during the time of the bombings. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a62d5c93f06e050f76ec1809d7f26cdd.mp4 ffb1ea4dc69c0f426c3927d45a56ff32 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3052db131b7a0c4d2a2d1dbb4887190.pdf d0e1ef1263b6731b9959d78f0536bc76 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: At this point, I would like to get some more detail… KONSIN SHAH: In Kum Quan [?], the Japanese Air Force had little interference, I don't know why, the 1940, they could have sailed south, but their aircraft carriers could have easily taken off and bombed the vicinity but the Japanese Air Force was scarcely interfering. So our Army had to take them. FRANK BORING: What was it like to be a soldier in the Chinese Army? KONSIN SHAH: We started as private to 2nd class in the military academy and then the, our salary was $9.60., which at the exchange rate of the early part of the war was 3 to 1 and $3.00 to American money. But then the inflation got off and in the Army we were… we find it difficult to eat rice. This was in the southern provinces where people eat rice. We would be content if we eat rice, and so in our grand maneuver, the cars and the tanks moved to the country and then we had to buy the rice and then we had no money. I personally raised money for the squadron. And so, afterwards, this was interest free, and afterwards I paid back and the China chemical works had a branch in Nu Do and I was - we had family interest and I had to ask for money and then we paid it and so getting to eat the rice is very difficult to eat the rice. �FRANK BORING: You mentioned the grand maneuver, what was that? KONSIN SHAH: We had , in each graduation, would join the maneuver, twenty or more tanks, coupled, maybe 100 cars going to the country side and the maneuver and since we were in the countryside, we could buy rice in the country and then against buying in Tong. FRANK BORING: What was a tank battle like with the Japanese? KONSIN SHAH: But then the tanks we used were T-9, the Soviets tanks, they were 9-ton tanks and then before that, we had the 6 ton tanks from the Victors The highway built, the bridge the maximum load is 20 tons and so the armor must be lighter than that and then from the T-9 tanks in the battle of Kum Yan Quan [?], then the Japanese had run out of heavy caliber guns and they were using machine guns and rifles, but they kind of heard us, and so we persevered. FRANK BORING: Why did you want to join the Air Force? KONSIN SHAH: I was a student in the engineering course and then in that day all of China had 40,000 or 50,000 college students and college students weren't very many and then engineering students came in few. So I realized that my knowledge to the mechanics and the mathematics was helpful in the Air Force and so I graduated smoothly. FRANK BORING: Did you have a desire to fly or is there a particular reason why the Air Force was a challenge to you or… KONSIN SHAH: Yes, it is a challenge. Because I have altophobia. When I mounted on a building that was 30 stories high, I was afraid. My sense kept me going forth. But, physically, I was afraid. �FRANK BORING: I guess, I have to know, why airplanes, why would you plan to get into an airplane? KONSIN SHAH: But the airplane is a good machine to fight, because I stated because my engineering training, my mathematics could help. And later, as I was flying President Chiang Kai-shek out of Kunming to Taipei, we were flying at 9,000 feet and the top cover and lower cover and the beacons were torn away and then the navigation was extremely difficult. 1400 and some miles, 7 hours and 20 minutes flight and there was no check point and the nearest broadcast station is from Hong Kong.350 miles away, there's no use, and so I did a perfect navigation job. And so my mathematical and engineering senses gave me the result. FRANK BORING: Can you describe for us the beginning stages of your entry into the Air Force, in other words the transition from the army into the Air Force. KONSIN SHAH: Yes, I graduated from the Army and I joined the Air Force as a student and then like all students, we had time for ground school and the drill and then the little time for flying. I was in Yunnanyi and then the new airplanes did not arrive because our old airplanes were shot up by Japanese bombers, and for less than 6 months, we had very little flying and afterwards, after the AVG groups came in, I was, we had 60 hours in 1 year. And then we moved it to Kunming. We had then, then Kunming had a little more gasoline. But then we were on orders to go to the United States and we stopped flying because the training could be done to the others and we waited for a few months. In 1941, no in 1942, by February, we went to India and on to the United States. But the training was doubtful every day. If one week you had some gasoline and the other week you don't have, they you stop. And that was before the Lend Lease came to China. Because before the Lend Lease came to China, Japan had, they had the purchase �of American engines, American, not really war planes, American engines and American ammunition and they could haul it on their own boats. But the Japanese Navy controlled the Pacific Ocean, we couldn't. FRANK BORING: Could you describe for us your first flight, the first time you actually got into an airplane and was able to fly? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, because at the age of 17, I drove a car, and the airplanes were not very much faster. The airplanes we used, elementary flying, was no faster than the car, and I sort of, it was sort of easy for me. But then most of the cadets, they couldn't come near a car, they find it difficult. But then faster airplanes, in my training, I took care of every lecture and every document that I could get hold of and then my training is very smooth. I did not have ground loops, accidents in the training, but in war it's different. FRANK BORING: How were the other Chinese pilots, Chinese cadets, what the training like, did you have strong enthusiasm or were there people that got discouraged after a little while? KONSIN SHAH: No, No. The Chinese cadets were always ready except one or two that they didn't care too much. Every person is very eager. It was our national shame to be invaded by a people rather small to our, in our population standards. We are very eager to get this right. FRANK BORING: One of the things that we found in our other interviews, with some of the Tigers, the pilots is that there is a certain sense of wanting to fly, there's something about this as opposed to being a Navy man or Army man, or whatever. In your conversations with the other cadets, or just in your conversations, was there different reasons for them to want to fly, was there a sense of being aviators, which was something new to China, did you find that there was a spirit, that you �were aviators, and not Army or Navy, or anything along that line? KONSIN SHAH: In our war lasted eight years, but toward the other part the later four years of the war things could be stated as an air force coming into being. And then, the air attraction were prevalent. The early stages of war, the Army, Navy and Air Force were sort of equal, they were poorly equipped and they were poorly staffed and so the wish to revenge is the same but the Army and the Navy and Air Force are sort of equal and then toward the end of the war, the aviator they were, contributed very much. The Army could do less. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 2 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah discusses his transition from serving in the Chinese Army to joining the Air Force and his recollection of his first flight. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d15006935cdf92eb8ef791cbeef8cbca.mp4 c827ff8e7b5a92ece0ae2427510424f2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fce6d4a55e4ff592653472b2c74fa14.pdf 68c7b7bf67e4e155c58c7216ee029000 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: During the period of the late 1930's, 37, 38, there were different training groups that came into China, were you involved with any of these training groups, or did you have, who were you trained by? KONSIN SHAH: At that time, in 1938, the training was entirely American advisors. Only in the 1928 or 29 the Soviets came in to aid the C-15's and the C-16's. That was to the far end of the China's Sing Camp (Sinkiang [?]). FRANK BORING: Excuse me, is it 1929 or 38, 39? KONSIN SHAH: 1928, 29. FRANK BORING: Ok. My apologies. Please continue. KONSIN SHAH: And in 1928 or 1929, the Soviets came in with the C15's and the C16's and the training was at the far end of our country, in Sinkiang [?]. And I had no contact with them. And then when I returned to the United States, when I returned from the United States in 1944, the Soviets are long gone, because the Soviets got home in 1941. �FRANK BORING: Did you have any contact with or hear of your fellow pilots that trained either with the Italians or Russians, or any of that group? Did you have any contact with people that were trained? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, we are the 13th class. And I was graduated from the 14th class because I was chased away and then came back and the 12th class had more people trained in the Soviet airplanes. And I think they're all gone. Because the Soviet airplanes are very short range. And then the accidental rate is very high and down to 1940, there is no Soviet airplanes in operation. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear about the AVG? KONSIN SHAH: I heard that a few months before I actually encountered the unit, a few months, and in the Air Force, I was the only person who subscribed to the Times. And the Times said that American Lend Lease to Britain will be turned to China. And so and so forth, that the training of the airmen and so forth, but not the AVG. and then through our officers, we heard the AVG. And in months, they came into being. FRANK BORING: What was your first reaction to seeing the shark’s teeth and the airplanes arriving, and where were you too? KONSIN SHAH: But I was in the Yunnanyi and we think that the squadron leader is Olson and I was one of the few cadets that spoke English and then I was sort of interpreting, and then so in the beginning I thought that if we had the same airplanes, we could easily fly. And then, in 1954, I was able to command the reconnaissance units. And I had F-86 Sabre jet. We had no training. We had no two-seat trainers. And only we read the book and taxied around and flew off. FRANK BORING: Could you, that's incredible. �KONSIN SHAH: The Chinese pilot and the American pilot are the same. But the shock of sufficient knowledge, or had been unable to read English, that's very difficult. FRANK BORING: If you could repeat? KONSIN SHAH: With our engineering and the mathematical training, I think a Chinese pilot is equal to the American pilot that could fly an airplane. But short of this, in especially, the Chinese pilot does not read English, that's a wholly different, mi-handicap. FRANK BORING: Could you describe the American training program in China, the training program that you were under to fly, what were the different stages, and how well did you get along with the instructors? KONSIN SHAH: In our, in the Chinese part of my training, there were only American jet pilots. Our pilots, our Chinese pilots served as an instructor and then the check pilots. I had the knowledge of English and Chinese and so I passed it. They're easy. But then the students who did not understand the English, found it reasonably difficult. And then the, our gasoline and our airplanes, they don't seem to get ready at any time. But then our training could not go off on schedule. Then in American training, everything went off on schedule. That's a totally different scene. FRANK BORING: Why was there a difference between the two? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, if we flew at least one hour a day, compared to the Chinese flight, 20 minutes or 40 minutes a week, you think some experience gotten is forgotten. Some experience gotten is forgotten. FRANK BORING: How important? What is a check pilot? We need to know what a check pilot is. �KONSIN SHAH: Yes, a check pilot is, they, our Chinese instructors get us the training, but the check pilot’s opinion is for how much our capability matches the least of American standards. FRANK BORING: What is a check pilot? KONSIN SHAH: They take us to flight. FRANK BORING: A check pilot is..... I need you to say..... KONSIN SHAH: A check pilot is a pilot who takes the Chinese students to flight and then tells what his capability is by the minimum American standard. FRANK BORING: Very good. How important was knowing English to your training and how much more difficult for the Chinese pilots who could not speak English? KONSIN SHAH: In the United States, the difference is pronounced. Each flight like I, I will assist the instructor to explain to the other Chinese cadets and then if I flew a multi-engine plane, my instructor could leave me with other students and we never got on the same airplane, except for check rights. Because the two airplanes are information and we need the English speaking students to ride the other airplanes. Just to for safety. FRANK BORING: I realize my question may seem ignorant, but what I'm trying to get at for the film is the difficulty that the Chinese pilots had in learning some of the techniques because they were, all the training was in English. And if you couldn't speak English, it made the job even harder. KONSIN SHAH: Oh yes. �FRANK BORING: So this is what I need from you so that the audience can then understand that learning English made it easier for you to do it but the Chinese pilots that couldn't speak English or read English, it was very difficult for them. If you could talk about the added difficulty to your already difficult training, you see, as I see it, and the lack of gasoline and everything else, but the fact that the English part also made it even more difficult. KONSIN SHAH: In China, the American jet pilots, they had a ride with the Chinese with the Chinese students and then they couldn't make the Chinese students understand. And so they fell into difficulties, but in America, the explanation is done by American instructors. When and if I am among this student group, I explain and I have been a sort of a cold teacher. In our middle school, in Chinese middle school, and then I had the patience of explaining to the Chinese students but if I weren't there I think the difficulty is by far more significant. FRANK BORING: We're going to ask of you now, is that, first of all, after you trained, as a pilot, and were ready to go into battle, what was your experience, or you r knowledge of, the Chinese air pilots that had already been fighting the Japanese before AVG. What was their ability and what was their experience? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, when I went to, I came back from United States and going into combat in China, I was a, when I came back from the United States into China to combat, I was in Chinese American composite wings and the Chinese pilots were mixed with American pilots and then I was flying the B-25's. The B-25's were crude by Chinese and American pilots. And so our tactical behavior followed the American Air Force group - that was of my first impression. And then we fellow officers, we could contribute a little more, because then our… the fellow officers, had been mostly trained, in the United States, 12, 13, 14th class, and then we could position the maps and the [?] and came into detailed intelligence and then �we showed the American pilots that we could do a little more. And then the 4th bomb squadron, the American pilots immediately they held our briefing in our operation room because our maps are more in detail and translated into English and so we could do a little more, but then in United States we could visit the intelligence library. We allied officers could visit the intelligence library and from the reading I got a lot of experience prior to my joining the Chinese Air Force, the staff school and so forth, and so the reading helped me to gain the knowledge of commanding. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 3 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah discusses when he first heard of the American Volunteer Group, the American training program in China, and his knowledge of the Chinese air pilots that fought the Japanese before the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b2bc054ee7d4ce14a690c8146e11e7a6.mp4 59dddff1ef195d57d8609dceeedc7594 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e1d547da1469a160ff482a9eca152082.pdf 3e09aee6600b91c8d1648e1900e26e84 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: If you could describe for us the differences and the problems between the Japanese Air Force and the Chinese Air Force before Pearl Harbor? KONSIN SHAH: Before the Americans came in, our Chinese Air Force vs. the Japanese Air Force, it's a lot of sacrifice. It is certain death to join the air force. Before my joining the Air Force, I had a chance to help a professor to Cambridge. Financing him. And I sent him off on the mission connecting Kunming and Hanoi. And he said I will finish my course in 2 years and come back to you. I said I will be an ash. The Japanese Air Force is so organized, so strong and the Morgan [?] airplanes to join the Air Force is quoting certain death and in my class I think the 13th and the 14th class, half of the members are wiped off in the Japanese war. The other half, the remnants suffered casualties in the anti-Communist war. FRANK BORING: The earlier classes before yours, did you hear of or did you hear stories of… KONSIN SHAH: Yes, but now, in our earlier classes these are my instructors. And so, in the 20th of this month we saw the funeral. We went to the funeral of a Gen. Yu Willow, Gen. Yu is the pilot who flew in August 14 and he bombed the Dismitsu [?]. �Anchored near the Shanghai and he was wounded and he was one of the old heroes who survived and so he's 80. And so we go to the funeral and pay respect to him. And he was, I think he was maybe not the lone member but he is a number of pilots who is very few who survived the war. FRANK BORING: Why was it so dangerous for the Chinese Air Force pilot to go into battle against the Japanese? KONSIN SHAH: We had inferior equipment. We were outnumbered. We didn't have the ground Morgan [?] equipment and we had no instrument flying technique. And lots of combat after the combat, a lot of airplanes were lost due to bad weather. Because in America the instrument flying instructor school started in 1943 and I was the first Chinese student to attend it. FRANK BORING: Why was it so dangerous for Chinese Air Force pilots to go up against the Japanese? KONSIN SHAH: The Chinese Air Force pilots, in the old days were leading a very dangerous life. They had inferior equipment, they were outnumbered and they didn't have the Morgan ground support and then they lacked the instrument flying. So many of the pilots after combat, they were lost to bad weather. And the American training, the instrument flying instructor school were started in 1943 and I was the first pilot to join the training. I was the 5th class. 3 of us we participated. And later on, I was head of our instrument training group. FRANK BORING: If we could go back to that day in which you saw the arrival of the AVG, could you tell us in detail your personal recollections and your personal feelings upon watching the airplanes arrive and you're going out to greet them and the banquet, the food that you ate? �KONSIN SHAH: When the AVG first arrived in Yunnanyi, I think they were peculiarly dragged in street clothes and because they took off from Burma, it's a very hot country, and landed in Yunnanyi, and not very warm and not very cool country and they came in a shirt. And so we greeted the pilots, we looked at, they came in a shirt. And so we welcomed them all the same. All the same. It was a great lift to our morale. If these pilots could fly, we could fly, but only if we got the airplanes. And then the… some of our students could think differently, because they didn't know English. For me, this was all the same. And then, later on, they were convinced that they were equal. FRANK BORING: Could you describe the events itself, and the meeting of these people and since you spoke English, you got a chance to talk to them, and then you said there was something that happened later, involving food, or you're getting together? KONSIN SHAH: Yes, we welcomed them all the same and then we, I had, I was a supervisor of daily rations. And then, I got hold of a truck. I burned my own gasoline and we go to a Shaquen [?], Shaquen [?] is to the west, it is 2 proven kilometers to the west and bought the rations and bought the expensive food and brought them back. In Ying? Yang Yee, my cousin was a contractor. He was the head of the contractor. And he had the trucks, and I borrowed the trucks and went off to Shaquen [?] and brought back expensive food and then one thing, we had , the AVG had never eaten black pears, black pears. Because the pears were so conserved. They looked back. If peeled, they were equally fresh. And they had black pears. FRANK BORING: What was the dinner like? What was the arrangement like? And what was the interplay between the Americans and the Chinese? KONSIN SHAH: We had difficulty to acquire forks and knives. And the wartime service call would come in and they had a hard time �acquiring the knives and forks and then we had no problem in China, so the dinner went off very well. Only, then I had the knowledge of eating Western food in Shanghai. I had the knowledge of the kind of food which attracts American pilots. Not the shark's fin. Not the shark's fin, tonight you will have the shark's fin. You're, by this time in '91 you were all accustomed to Chinese food, but then this was 1941. And the American pilots wouldn't eat shark's fin and so I shunted them. FRANK BORING: I know you've become very close friends with this group to this day, what were your first impressions of these men? One of the things we found particularly, it seems, is that you're telling me about the shirts, it surprised you. Tell us more about that please. KONSIN SHAH: But then, after the first victory, the prestige of American pilots zoomed. Because I think the Japanese and American pilots would fight equally and at a par. But then, the Japanese pilots, by then, we found that the Japanese pilots are their incentive, their discipline was to follow the leaders. But they had no personal quality. Suppose they had personal quality, this is subdued and but the American pilots, overhauled, the Japanese pilots. FRANK BORING: At this first meeting, when you were having your dinner and whatnot, having a chance to talk to them, you spoken with them, what were your first impressions of these men? KONSIN SHAH: I think they came from Navy, from Army and from the civilian and so at first, we thought this was a conglomerate of pilots , they were after the glory of the thing but this glory we considered fighting for democracy. And fighting for the independence of China. So I wrote to pilots this date, you helped us to maintain our independence. �FRANK BORING: Were there any particular Tigers that stuck out at that first meeting you had? Was there any particular one that you remember or any story that you can recall about that dinner? KONSIN SHAH: No because this was before my visit to the United States and I understood the United States a great deal less. A great deal less. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 4 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah describes the differences and problems between the Chinese Air Force and the Japanese Air Force before Pearl Harbor, in addition to the arrival of the AVG and his first impressions of the Flying Tigers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a4e5a48f56b44510e8fb8e5c2d6674b8.mp4 9b4dc8aedb96b661fbfef5b433fd906f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3bad5cc992b6bb0ab8197cd73f7317c6.pdf 1ad26d3adc1dd9eefb5190276f626f15 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: Yunnanyi and Kunming? KONSIN SHAH: Yunnanyi. Yes, in 1941. 1941 the one squadron landed in Yunnanyi and one squadron landed in Kunming. FRANK BORING: And one squadron flew into Yunnanyi. So that way we have that clarified through history. KONSIN SHAH: When the AVG first came to Yunnan one squadron flew to Kunming, and one squadron flew to Yunnanyi, which is 120 miles west of Kunming and later on, whether these two groups merged or something, then I don't know. In a few months, I flew to the United States. FRANK BORING: Do you recall the first flight of the AVG, the first battle? KONSIN SHAH: Yes. FRANK BORING: Make sure you state the first battle of the AVG. KONSIN SHAH: The first battle of the AVG took place in November just after their arrival. But the siren sounded and we took the planes off the… our trainer planes got off to the west, and then we returned, the bombs never came, the bombs never came. And �then on the morrow, I heard the big bang, because Yunnanyi is separate from Kunming, and the news came later. And then I heard that 6 airplanes were found. There were 6. Japanese airplanes were found. When Japanese Air Force bombed the Kunming, a few months before, my mother who was living in Kunming, got off to the eastern gate and she had only existed the gate not too far when the bombs fell. And her body was covered by tons of soil, but then the soil was moved and she was unhurt. And then in a few months, my mother, she run from Kunming to the north gate, and then the bombs never came, so Kunming got the news that a victory was held and then in Yunnanyi, we got the news tomorrow. And so we celebrated with the AVG boys. FRANK BORING: What was your personal reaction when you heard the news that Kunming was bombed? KONSIN SHAH: I think the first reaction was the American prestige of the airmen was very high. And secondly, our hopes to win the war is relatively certain because at that time the Americans state didn't declare was against Japan, this was in November. But then after the November 7th, we, I was very studious in Geography and History. And I knew that the American, the Japanese force, when entangled with American power, they could never win. No. In 1940, the Japanese press, they called their steel industry was producing eight million tons a year, eight million tons a year, but when the United states mobilized, this was 30 million a year. By the end of the war it was a hundred million a year. We students of geography could predict that Japan went and tangled when American power could never win. FRANK BORING: What do you think the AVG's first victory meant to the Chinese people? �KONSIN SHAH: The AVG's first victory sounded much more important in Kunming than in [?]. But then after a few months, they were stationed in [?]. They wiped off a Japanese bombers time after time. Then the whole country, is the morale, was lifted. They saw hopes that if we are determined, we could win the war. They a few days sooner, or a few days later. FRANK BORING: Where do you think the AVG lies in terms of Chinese history, where do they fit into this period of Chinese history? KONSIN SHAH: The AVG's story could be revived in Chinese mainland. Because AVG's story is little known in Taiwan. Taiwan is then a Japanese colony. But the Korean War kept United States and China sort of a, incommunicable. If we, if China is reunited in a democratic way, the AVG's story could be widely published and those who survived being the age of 55 and on up, in Kunming, in Chengdu, in Chungking, they could remember. But then inferior to that age group, there is little known, there is very little known. FRANK BORING: From your perspective, you have done many things in your life, you have accomplished a great deal. You also have been a student of Chinese history. I'm looking at the whole spectrum, I guess that I'm looking for is that very brief moment of one year, in both American and Chinese history, is very unique, I'm wondering from your very personal perspective, where do you think AVG fits in the whole spectrum of Chinese history? KONSIN SHAH: China's war of independence largely is to trade space for time. But, Japanese Air Force could before they take the space, exercises bombing to our deepest or greatest terror, but then the AVG came and stopped the bombing. That held the determination of our people and of our leaders. Our leadership does not hesitate but our people said that the bombing of cities, day after day, day after day, we couldn't �tolerate but then the AVG came in and stopped the bombing. That was a change of the opinion from the leadership to the population that this war could be won. FRANK BORING: From your own, you didn't know Chennault at all at this time, is that correct? KONSIN SHAH: No, I came into a Chinese-American composite wing and I knew Chennault. And only briefly. Only briefly, but then within a year, I was stationed to. FRANK BORING: Of Madame Chiang Kai-shek's involvement in the AVG, do you know it? Could you explain a little bit more about that? What was her role at the AVG? KONSIN SHAH: Madame Chiang Kai-shek's official title was the secretary general to the Aviation Council. And she took care of the acquisition of airplanes and training of pilots where the Generalissimo didn't have time. And then, Madame Chiang spoke very much more English, then the Generalissimo. And she had a, not a free hand, but she had mostly counseling of the aviation matter in Generalissimo day to day work. And then the AVG boys came in and from the start, she was informed of the story because President Roosevelt gave a Lend Lease Plan to China. And then the AVG group and so from the very start she was very close to General Chennault, and to the staff. And if by Chinese saying, she was the Foster Mother of the AVG group. FRANK BORING: This particular question, I think is very important to this project because there have been too many misconceptions and too many things said about Chiang Kai-shek and the Western Press and the Western, this is an opportunity to set the records straight. One thing that I have seen in my research is that he had a task that is very difficult for anyone in any time. If you could describe the different problems that he had to deal with �from the invasion of the Japanese, the land of having to give up space for time, the equipment, the fact that the Burma Road was not a super highway, but you didn't have airplanes, I realize that this is a very large question, but if you could address the difficulties that Generalissimo and Chiang Kaishek had, in the Sino-Japanese war? And also the internal problems also, the Communist, there was a time when the warlords were still somewhat powerful, I realize it is a very large questions, but if you could address this. KONSIN SHAH: When Japan invaded China in 1937, this was after their invasion of the North Eastern Provinces in 1931. The Japanese had the 2nd largest Army. The 2nd largest Air Force. And their Navy, they stealthily constructed so many dread knots and aircraft carriers, which the United States didn't know. And then, we, in our revolution of Dr. Sun Yatsen, we started in 1930 -- 1924 and in 1925 with 3,000 rifles bearing to the north. And in 1927, they conquered Nanking. And then they went to the north. China is subordinated to many, many warlords. Each of them backed by the foreign power that had primary interest in it. In Yunnan, they had the French equipment. In the Northeastern countries, they had the Japanese equipment, and the central provinces they had English, and so in collecting the Chinese Army, we didn't have an Army to a sort of unified in equipment. So in 1937, the Chinese Army had 8 divisions trained from German advisors. From German advisors, and that 8th division was mostly used in defense of Shanghai. And then the warlords could be persuaded to fight the Japanese. And then there is Communist. The Communist are determined to conquer China. The Communist's combined forces with the Nationalist government and they didn't do much fighting. After the Chinese Army was routed by Japanese Army, they would collect the guns. They would collect the guns. And so, the Chiang Kai-shek had the internal problem, plus the Chinese Communists. And so in 1931, when Japan took the �Northeastern provinces, Chiang Kai-shek had the determination that to defend the outer invasion must be after the pacification of the interior. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 5 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah describes the first battle of the American Volunteer Group, the bombing of Kunming, and his perspective on the AVG's place in Chinese history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14b9c85944e31c97ea3e17c1283df31f.mp4 cdfcb3036daffb2030e2454862f1c10f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30b0207e9483f32b8103ed85cf9c195e.pdf 32964974e907e1fbd8c721d1412262e6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Konsin C. Shah Date of Interview: 03-24-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] KONSIN SHAH: During the war against the Japanese in 1937, the Governor of Shangtu [?] betrayed the Republic. And then the Army leader of Su Tran [?] betrayed the public. The Republic. Short of the Communist making troubles, the Communist started to occupy north of Shanghai. North of Shanghai. This is the route of the Nanking government. The Nanking government started to gain power before 1934 - in Nanking, Shanghai and Shangtu [?] - a very small triangle that was the rich country. And then the Chinese Communists were in 1939, 1940, they would encroach in the northern province of Kim Su [?], a hundred miles from Shanghai. And so, the difficulty is tremendous. We lost the industrial quarters. And in Chungking, we didn't see fit to manufacture a toothpaste. Such difficulty. And then, the western correspondence, like Mrs. Strong, and his and her cohorts, they were clearly Communist. And so they were propagating that China would not fight. With what? But then, the Air Force took the equipment, the Navy never got the day going. The Army came late, because the Army came from Burma, came from India in the Burma, this was too late. And the Air Force got some equipment, the Air Force by the help of American Air Force stopped the Japanese invasion somehow. They, we say the government the Chinese government, they had the determination to fight the Chinese Communists up to the end. �When Chunking was endangered toward the winter of 1944, Chi Kung [?] to the west of Chunking, was prepared for the capital. If Chunking was lost, then Chi Kung [?] would be the capital. We fight to the end. FRANK BORING: One last thing, if that's a… (break) KONSIN SHAH: The war was won, because then afterwards the difficulty is unsurmountable. FRANK BORING: But then 1937 wasn't that difficult as well? He had the Communist on one part, he had the Japanese invading, he had lack of equipment, lack of supplies, he had, this is what we're looking to try and give a western audience a better grasp of... (break) KONSIN SHAH: Chiang Kai-shek's dilemma, at the time of Japanese invasion in July 1937, he had a speech in Nan Tung [?], where there is no hope of a peaceful solution, then we will talk of sacrifice. Because there is no equipment, there is no organization, there is no internal organization, there is a Russian part of an indirect invasion from the Communist. So where there is no hope of a peaceful solution, then we will talk about sacrifice. This is his dilemma. FRANK BORING: Is that possible to, you're looking down, could you just start from the beginning? KONSIN SHAH: At the time of the Japanese invasion, in 1937, in July, Generalissimo, Chiang Kai-shek, made a speech in Cansee Province [?], in Lu Shang [?], up at the summer resort. His statement was where there is no hope of a peaceful solution then we will talk about sacrifice because we lack equipment, we lack internal organization, plus some of Russia had a �Communist part to play in the internal problem. And we couldn't wage a fight, but there is no peaceful solution - let's talk about sacrifice. FRANK BORING: Thank you very much. I appreciate you're going through all of this. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shah_Konsin_1991-03-24_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shah, Konsin C. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-24 Title A name given to the resource Konsin Shah interview (video and transcript, 6 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Chinese Ambassador Konsin Shah by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Ambassador Shah served as a Chinese aviator during World War II and later as President Chiang Kai-shek's pilot and aide de camp. In this tape, Konsin Shah discusses the great dilemma of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek at the time of Japanese invasion in July 1937 and the lack of hope for a peaceful solution in China. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/704b01ac9e06e892a86a21db6571cd74.mp4 c6cf01e536acce91745764f8d47e77f1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d4f6197f3f6650cd22f12dbd2bf322d.pdf 55ec58af287c4ad41f4c8ea22174738f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project James Shannon (02:04:00) (00:05) Background Information • James was born in Galveston, TX in 1928 • His family owned a dairy farm • He graduated high school and went to college for electrical engineering • At night he worked as a fireman • James enlisted in the Merchant Marines (06:09) Training • He went to boot camp in Catalina, CA • There were 30 people that he trained with • Boot camp lasted for 6 weeks and then he signed up for radio school • He was assigned to Hoffman Island, NY [Merchant Marine radio school] and it took him six days to get there • They got off the train and got on the subway at Grand Central Station and took a boat across to the island • They learned Morse code and had to get 16 wpm to pass the requirements to get their 2nd class radio telegraph license • Monday through Friday they had 4 hours of theory and 4 hours of code training • On the weekends they were able to go to New York City • James went to Times Square and did a bicycle tour of Manhattan • Radio school lasted 20 weeks including the Navy training part • He stayed at the island to get his first class license and he heard that Japan had surrendered • After receiving his license he was released �(36:39) T2 Tanker • James was assigned to a 500 foot T2 tanker with a crew of 42 men • He was the only radio officer • His first message diverted him to Pearl Harbor and then to San Pedro • James received his purser’s license and was sent back to San Francisco • He went to NY to try and find another assignment • While he was in NY he found out he was going to be drafted, so he appealed to a General • The General said he would get him out of it and on a boat (43:40) Cargo Ships • James went to Norfolk, VA and boarded a Liberty Ship to the NW coast of Africa • They unloaded half of their coal and went to the Cape Verde Islands of Portugal to unload the other half • Then they went to the bulge of Africa and picked up troops that cleaned the ship • Their next place to load was Cameroon and they picked up cocoa beans • After that they went to the French coast to load logs • They took the cargo back to the US • Every time they came back they had to sign another contract • The Merchant Marines had the highest death rate • In 1946 James went home for leave on a DC-3 (01:00:07) North Sea • On his next mission he went across the North Sea • He went to Denmark and France • The North Sea still had mines in it so they had to follow a specific route • After picking up wheat in Scotland they went down the St Lawrence River and unloaded it in Montreal �• When they went back out to sea it was winter and there were some storms • They went around Florida and into the gulf to load grain in Galveston, TX • The next stop was Trinidad and then Cape Town, South Africa • In Cape Town the captain went to town, had a stroke and died • A new captain came aboard and they went to Mombasa, Kenya • Then they crossed the Indian Ocean to go to Malaysia, but they didn’t want the grain • One of the oilers on the ship was an alcoholic and was going through withdrawal on the ship; he later died of alcoholism (01:21:25) Back to School • James got back to the US and went back to school to work on his engineering degree • On summer break he got on a ship loaded with grain that was headed for Europe • They went down the Weser River to Bremen to unload • Bremen had a lot of rubble and they were told not to buy from the German stores because they didn’t have much, but they could get stuff from the Army • In the fall of 1948 he went back to school and the next summer he got on another boat to Italy • For Christmas break of 1949 James went to Hamburg, Germany • He went to college for one more semester and got married in 1950 (01:48:06) Korean War • James went up to Seattle, WA and was escorted through processing because they were in need of radio operators • He was assigned to a C4 troop transport ship in San Francisco • They loaded 3,000 troops and set off for Yokohama, Japan • The boat broke down at sea and James had to help the chief electrician fix one of the evaporators • James visited Yokohama and Tokyo • They loaded people that were going back to the US and headed to Seattle �• His wife was going to school in Ann Arbor, MI and he went to visit her • James then finished school and got a job as a field development engineer in Key West, Florida for General Electric • He worked for 20 years in anti sub warfare for GE � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShannonJ Title A name given to the resource Shannon, James (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shannon, James Description An account of the resource James Shannon was born in Galveston, Texas in 1928. He enlisted in the Merchant Marines while in his first year of college. He had boot camp in Catalina, California and went to radio school on Hoffman Island in the New York Harbor. He completed his training just as the war ended, and served on merchant ships carrying relief supplies and other cargoes to Europe, Africa, and Asia, alternating voyages with terms in college. During the Korean War, he served on a troop transport ship. He eventually completed his degree in electrical engineering, stopped sailing and worked as an engineer designing anti-submarine warfare systems. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Merchant marine--United States World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8c82fbb79cf1ae996a22e38b218f7ee3.mp4 27d59c9aa8551e9ce631d8f552f6196b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fd994e0e5e1f73ed51f0e4fc1e35a40.pdf 761cce097de9fd063095a5cc2b833f2d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Charles Shapin (01:11:27) Childhood (00:10:18) born in Brooklyn, raised in the Syosset Bay neighborhood near the ocean (00:26:10) his father was in the wholesale fish business, his mother was a housewife; both parents were born in the United States Pre-war Atmosphere (00:51:15) on Sunday morning, December 7, 1941, he came home from a handball game to listen to the Brooklyn Dodgers play the Giants; they were listening to the game when the news broke: Japanese were bombing Pearl Harbor (00:56:20) the atmosphere changed � British battleship Prince of Wales and British battlecruiser Repulse sunk � the Japanese invaded the Philippines � his darkest moment was when Singapore fell; Singapore had been the “fortress of fortresses” � his parents sent him out that night to a delicatessen and he realized the world had changed � the atmosphere, the idea of the war, it was “very bad” (02:20:29) when he was 13 or 14 years old, Chamberlain made "peace" with Hitler: “we knew it was temporary, you can’t make peace with a dictator” (02:56:14) he knew about Nazis, the concentration camps—but not death camps—the persecution of Jews, Gypsies (03:17:27) they had some German refugees—Jewish kids—coming into his school and neighborhood (03:54:23) Roosevelt speech: “your sons will not be sent overseas to fight in a foreign war while we are being shelled” � Lend Lease was going on, Selective Service and National Guard had been established � Gerald Pershing: 50 destroyers for naval bases � “convoying ships is an act of war” The United States and Mr. Shapin enter World War Two. (05:10:00) Germany declared war on US 2 days after Pearl Harbor � "one of Hitler's biggest mistakes" � he passed by a newsstand on his way home and saw the news; “it was a shock” (06:15:01) graduated from high school at age of 17 and half, started college a couple months later; finished a year of college (07:01:10) he went to the draft board: a bunch of people there wanted to get deferment, while he wanted to sign a waiver to get in, and he did (07:47:05) a fellow he had been in many classes with at high school went into the �army with him on the same day and they came out on the same � he still communicates with Ken, Kenny (as of the time of filming) Mr. Shapin’s Military training and experience prior to entering the European war theater. (08:33:15) spent 4-5 days at Camp Upton on Long Island before receiving his shipping orders (08:56:24) put on the Long Island Railroad, a local commuter train to Penn Station; at Penn Station a troop train was waiting; the train headed south through Baltimore, Washington DC, Richmond, and the next afternoon it ended up in field; the train went off on a siding at Fort Bragg, NC (10:21:14) he had passed the physical at Camp Upton: he had a perforated ear drum, and the doctor called over a second doctor who blew on it—it moved, and therefore, it was OK (10:57:27) he was designated “special assignment” and put into field artillery using the 240mm howitzer—the biggest gun in the field artillery (12:20:03) there was drilling and field exercises, he was in the survey section; one of the exercises was “taping”: � a 100-foot steel tape was handled by a team of two, with the second guy winding up the guy in front: metal pins, each with a hole or loop in it, were dropped and the tape was passed through the loops; the second guy was supposed to count the pins � the purpose of surveying was to locate on a map targets, observation points, and gun positions—all part of gunfire control � the army had grid maps of all of Europe: “grid north,” not the magnetic north was used (16:08:10) his first unit mainly from New York, average people, some “characters” � in basic training they learned military courtesy and also about gas masks (17:53:04 ) he was at Fort Bragg until Nov 1943; he had applied with his buddy for “ASTP”, the Army Specialized Training Program and they went to John B. Stetson University in Florida; next, they were sent to Rollins College for basic engineering training, and then to CCNY in New York � the program folded in five weeks, there were so many casualties in Africa � he was put into the infantry (19:55:06) sent to Fort Polk in Louisiana, where they faced wild pigs and ticks � they would take their clothes off and remove each others ticks using matches: they held the matches to the ticks derrieres � he has tick scars (21:31:24) opposing them was the 92nd infantry division, an all Black division that shot blanks at them when they would cross the Sabine River in assault boats (21:50:16) he got himself back into artillery; they returned to Camp Refuge in Kentucky, and he was interviewed by the warrant officer, Mr. Tucker; volunteered for overseas service and the orders came through � given furlough that night, he hadn't qualified with the .45 pistol � he had to fire one before he could go on furlough—his ears rung until he got home to New York �� you have to be in the outfit six weeks before they can send you overseas, so he had to return to camp from New York, after furlough The War in Europe (24:07:25) in November of 1944, he went overseas with the 75th infantry division � his first “outfit” was the 551st Field Artillery Battalion � he had transferred to artillery, but he had ten months infantry experience as a rifleman, and he was put back into the survey section (25:23:15) crossing the Atlantic Ocean in November of 1944 � it was as “smooth as glass” � they went over unescorted on the HMS Aquitania � he remarked on how the Englishmen "destroy any food," and “guys were complaining” • the general of the division, “followed by an army of flunkies,” walked down the second row and stopped, asked a soldier how the food was and was he getting enough to eat; to the dismay of the others, that soldier answered "Oh yes sir." (28:40:00) they were worried about U-Boats but made it to Scotland safely, to Greenock in the north near Glasgow; he was put on an LST ship and sent to Cardiff, in Wales, for a couple of weeks; Cardiff had “the worst climate in the world”—it rained every day (29:40:10) his impressions of Britain: they got passes and took taxis around London; once they even saw Churchill getting into a car as they passed a gate on Downing Street (30:36:23) one day at Paddington Station � he met a “very pretty girl” he described as an English WAC, the equivalent to an American WAC � MPs asked where his pass was, and he was taken to MP headquarters; he apparently didn't have the right kind of pass, it wasn’t supposed to mention his outfit � the girl’s name was Molly Fletcher—he remembers her name “to this day” (31:27:28) in early December of ’44, he rode the train to Southampton, where he was put on an LST ship again, and he met a sailor who was a neighbor of his; they were on the LST for three days, riding around in the [English] Channel (33:26:14) riding through France, near the Belgian border � people were waving, cheering, giving them flowers as they rode through France � “the [Battle of the] Bulge” broke out on the 15th,” but they didn’t know that � he manned a machine gun in the truck—he had been sent to machine gun school at Fort Fisher, in NC � the weather was sunny for a couple of days and then cold; the clouds broke, B17s came over and he saw them being shot down � finally they were told about “the Bulge,” and they would be opposing the 1st SS Panzer division that had “massacred a bunch of [Allied] soldiers at Malmedy” (39:00:08) one of his favorites in Belgium was the “grease gun,” a submachine gun �(40:04:02) the artillery was used immediately, “you don’t keep artillery in reserve, you keep infantry in reserve” � they had to “register” the battery: they would fire, and if the shell landed where they hoped it would, “you’ve registered the battery” � they had what was called a “K,” a correction: if they thought they had to aim “here” but the shell wasn’t landing “here,” maybe off by five degrees, they were given a “K” � their captain “registered” the battalion, “I think it took him God knows how many rounds” (40:51:28) it got bitterly cold and the snow cracked under their feet; they slept in houses or barns; the battalion commander was “very solicitous” and always tried to get them houses; the gun crews had to sleep in tents near the guns (42:23:21) his duty was in the survey section and he went out with a survey party, after the guns were set up � the other guys were jealous because they would go out on the first day and take the best house; they would choose the kitchen among the rooms if they could, because they could cook � when the survey was done, they would hide, or they were put on guard duty until the guns were moved again; how often the guns were moved varied (45:55:01) Shapin read “later” that Patton wanted to attack the flanks of “the Bulge” but Eisenhower wanted “a head-on assault,” and there were a “lot of casualties” � the Germans fought them house to house back to the German border (46:39:20) he was then sent to Holland, a "quiet sector" then moved out to the Rhine under Montgomery’s control � there were 56 battalions of field artillery running through their fire direction � the next morning 600 guns opened fire; they did “such a good job” that two days later they ran short of shells Race Relations in the military and in civilian life. (48:46:09) the Dutch had very rarely seen black soldiers; Shapin described how, in one town, black soldiers driving trucks noticed that the native people were “very curious, and they gunned the engines to make them backfire; the people asked, regarding the black soldiers, “What are those?” and the Americans explained that they were black soldiers; then the Dutch asked what the black soldiers were “good for” (49:28:20) his parents had visited him in Fort Bragg, NC: his mother had relatives in the South and had been in the South, but his father was “amazed” by “colored” waiting rooms, fountains, etc. (49:58:24) on a public bus once, they were not on duty, and a black soldier got on and sat in the back; a bunch of soldiers, mostly from New York, asked why he had to sit in the back, he wore the same uniform as they did (50:26:28) at Camp Refuge, black soldiers were not allowed to guard the nurses quarters because the nurses were white; three white privates had to guard the nurses, and he was one of them �(52:04:00) it was culture shock for northern whites, and southern Blacks as well; most training camps were in the South Impressions of Germany and Germans (53:05:04)crossing into Germany in the spring of 1945: � it was richer, their houses were much nicer � bedsheets representing white flags of surrender were hung out � according to Shapin, referring to the Germans, “you never met one who was a Nazi”; they were all “nicht Nazis”; there was a “no fraternization” rule (53:56:00) he mentioned guarding some hostels, after the fighting ended, that were full of German wounded; he had very little contact with Germans after the war though they would ask questions sometimes (56:02:20) they [Germans] were digging in garbage cans, they were in “bad shape” The war ends. (56:24:02) “we didn't know about the concentration camps”: � while in France waiting to go to Japan, Eisenhower ordered everyone to watch films about the camps � German prisoners there who watched the films believed that it was “Allied propaganda” (57:01:00) he was in Germany until late spring, until VE day in May, and not long after that they were sent to France to a redeployment camp � he had a three-day pass to Paris—a couple of times he had passes to Paris (58:01:28) he was offered an all-expense-paid, seven-day trip to Switzerland, on furlough, and he was on a train to Switzerland when Japan surrendered on VJ day � the trip to Switzerland was very nice; he stayed in a nice hotel in Lucerne, where they were asked if they wanted to various other hotels, and next time they ended up in Hotel Stocken, a “very fancy” hotel in St. Gallen,; later, he went to a hotel on Lake Geneva A Choice between school and a resort. (01:00:55:02) in September of 1945 they had an offer, if they had been in college before, of choosing between two “colleges” the army ran, where they could earn credit while waiting to go home � he and his buddy, Kenny, both had this option, and they decided in favor of Shriffen in England, because “the French don’t like Americans”; he found out that the other school, Biarritz, in France, was a resort; they had passes to London on the weekends Returning to the US. (01:02:15:08) they were supposed to go home on the aircraft carrier Wasp � Wasp got damaged in a storm, and the Lake Champlain was sent to them � they “hit five storms in ten days”; this was in January of 1946; sailors were vomiting � they landed in Staten Island; his parents and Ken's parents had passes to �meet them at the ship (01:03:17:25) they had to go to Fort Dix “to get out”; the army lost their papers (Shapin’s and Ken’s) and they had to spend seven days in Fort Dix instead of two; (01:04:55:22) there were German prisoners in Fort Dix Reflections on Europe. (01:07:03:14) “soldiers like to loot,” looting was “a problem” (01:07:11:16) the Germans gave "mutter medals": Americans would try to bring these home if they could find them in the Germans’ houses; Shapin himself “looked and looked” for one of these (01:08:29:25) in England the prostitutes were everywhere; in Paris they [prostitutes] were everywhere Reflecting on the war. (01:10:03:06) it gave him a view: he is conservative, pro-military (01:10:13:08) he can understand opposition to war and the Iraq war, but regarding the attacks on recruiting stations during the Iraq War: “it’s treason” (01:11:27:15) his feeling is that is that there are people who hate this country [United States]; he loves it: "my fellow Jews aren't persecuted here" � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShapinC Title A name given to the resource Shapin, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shapin, Charles Description An account of the resource Charles Shapin served in the US Army during World War II. He trained both as an artillerist and an infantryman, and eventually shipped over to Europe with an artillery battalion attached to the 75th Division. He saw action in the Battle of the Bulge in Belgium, and later in the Netherlands and Germany. He provides detailed discussions of training and army life, as well as of his experiences in Europe, both in and out of combat. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-04-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b4657e3a1d94b953ab162f3c648c6b7e.jpg 9a8748f03ca69d86acc36eccd4c677da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001037 Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley's Stage 3 theater Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sharpe, W. C. Description An account of the resource Grand Valley's Stage 3 theater in the former Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Grand Rapids. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5eb9a8f43d0c1382a8ef01aa4b029187.mp4 3ee1aa05cc6b0b71512d89b8e91cc71d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b9bf97a8f22d4b8f0d63571fe0fdbcd.pdf 829e87db835168f2f7a3c6797ea056ee PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee: Richard Shaull Length of Interview: 00:53:12 Background               He was born May 16th, 1921 in Lansing, Michigan. His father was a cabinet maker. He owned his own store and during the 20’s and 30’s, his cabinets would fill 2/3 of the stores in Lansing. With some difficulty, they did make it through the depression, but lost their home in the process. He would live with his grandparents until they were able to get on their feet again. Richard was born a twin but his twin died as an infant. He did have a sister too, but she died several years ago. He would graduate from Central High School in Lansing in 1939. After he graduated, he would attend Lansing Community College, which is now Davenport. He would go for business administration. It would be while he was in college when the war started and he would enlist into the Army Air Force. He was always interested in what was happening in the world and knew about was what going on in the war before Pearl Harbor. He knew that he would be a part of it and was surprised that it took as long as it did. He had heard about Pearl Harbor when he was out visiting a friend. He knew then that that was it. His dad was in the Air Corps during WWI and he knew right away that he wanted to serve in the air force. While he wanted to be a fighter pilot, his dad served as a ground crew. He had experience in an airplane before he joined. He took a ride in an open cockpit in Lansing, where they were giving rides. He went to Kalamazoo to enlist on October 31, 1942. Once he was enlisted, he had to take a physical and mental exam. The mental exam he would pass with flying colors. His physical did not go so well. He had glasses and an overbite. The doctors told him that he would never be a pilot, but suggested artillery spotting. Training (6:00)   He would take training for this at Hoosier Field, Indiana, near Indianapolis. There he would learn how to fly a Piper Cub. In that training, he had to do ground flying. He had to fly over haystacks, barns and had to stay as close to the ground as possible. During combat, the lower to the ground you were, the safer you would be, as you were not such an easy target. �      He learned out to fly it over the 500 racetrack [Indianapolis Brickyard]. He would also learn how to fly a plane in a winter storm. He would get conventional basic training after he completed the Piper Cub training. He would go to the Jefferson Barracks in St. Louis, Missouri to get his basic training. They would give you exam there to see what you would do best. He ended up going to radio mechanic school in Madison, Wisconsin. He stopped the training in the Piper Cub training because there were too many people. From there he would be transferred back into the regular air force and then to radio school. While at radio school, he would learn the radio system on a B-17. He graduated from that and sent to Europe. Europe (8:45)  He was put on the Louis Pasteur in the NY/NJ area.  It was a French ship and was very interesting. There was a great big opening that they would use to get to their quarters and the next three days were horrible.  Many of them had never been on a big boat and the ocean. Seasickness really took over and it was a mess. The weather wasn’t bad, but the swells were enough for most of them.  The ship itself was converted in order to carry its passengers. The officers and higher up would stay in state rooms, while anyone lower would stay in big rooms below.  In one room, there were probably 100 men. There was about 3000 on the boat total.  They would travel by themselves on the ocean. It was a late model French ship that was quite speedy.  He arrived in England about 8 days later.  They would go up to the northern part of Ireland and came down by the Isle of Man and landed at Liverpool.  Along the way there were not U-boat scares.  He landed in England around March 1944.  When he got there he was assigned to a general air force unit, in a small town near Bristol in Wales.  From there they would give different assignments throughout the Air Force.  It would be then that he would find out that they had too many radio mechanics, but they did need a typist in a photo intelligence detachment. He certainly did not mind as he was a decent typist. So he was assigned to the 20th Air Force Intelligence Detachment.  He would go by Stonehenge on his way to London for his new position. (12:30)  He was quartered just outside of London. His office was at Cromwell’s headquartering in London.  There he was a chief clerk of the outfit and he had to do the morning reports and all that office work. He would also learn what they were going to do once people got over to Europe.  He would be taking bombing pictures and see if they had to bomb again.  He would also help in creating a mosaic of the coast from Norway down to France. This would help them in determining where they were going to send troops into Europe. It would also be used in helping identify bombing targets along the coast as well. �            He was working in his office and all of a sudden the intercom when off and told them all to go outside and look at the sky. He did and they sky was covered with planes, gliders and dirigibles. You couldn’t see the sky at all. It was awe inspiring. (14:25) He did not get a lot of information in the office that he worked in. He would also move around a lot too. He spent 7 months in England, 7 months in France, 7 months in Belgium and 3 months in Germany. While he was in England, he would meet a nice lady at the USO office. She would often invite him to her house to visit with her husband and son. This is what he would do most of his spare time while he was in England. During that time, there would be many buzz bombs that would fly over England. If you heard a buzz bomb motor stop, you had to take cover. One night, he was on the way to the house for dinner with the family, when he heard a motor stop. He did not know what to do and took cover behind a bus. He remembers there was broken glass all around him and he was knocked down. He suffered no injury. He would continue on to the home, where he would find the wife under a large, heavy table, and the rest of the family in a bomb shelter. She had claustrophobia. He has a lot of nice memories of the time he spent with that family. The family would migrate to California after the war and he would see them a couple times after that. One evening on leave, he and a couple of soldiers got a hotel for the night. Suddenly the sirens started going off and they did not know what to do, so they stayed in bed while bombs went off all around them. Fortunately, none hit their hotel. All the big cities in England would have dirigibles [barrage balloons] outside the city that would have mesh lining hanging down in order to catch and stop the buzz bombs from entering the city. Some of them were higher than the dirigibles, so some got through, but it did stop most of them. At the time he was doing his normal office work. It would be later that he would get his training for bomb assessment. He would then head to France 7 months after he was in England. France (19:15)  He flew on a B-24. That was the first time he had a gun issued to him and he didn’t know how to use it.  He was flown to Chartres, France.  He would sit at the cathedral nearby and watch the people. It was there that he decided that he wanted to learn French. By the time he got back to the US, he could speak it fairly fluently.  He was based at Chartres for only a short time. He would then be transferred to Reims. Just as soon as they would capture the places, they would be about 35 miles behind the lines.  His father had been stationed in Reims while serving in WWI. At a souvenir shop there he would purchase a drawing of a cathedral, because his dad bought one during WWI. He grew up looking at that picture and wanted one of his own.  He would begin doing his bombing assessment work here. �                      A P-38 Lightning that had camera in the nose of it would go with the bombers on their mission. Sometimes during, and always after, they would take pictures of the bombing that had taken place. It would be determined by the pictures if they needed to go back and bomb again. His job would be to type of the negative that went with the photos. He would not do any of the interpreting. Instead, he would take the data and type it up. There were about 8 enlisted men and about 10 officers working at the office. Major Porter was the CO of the office. His rank at the time was Staff Sergeant. All the people working there had special skills and were of a higher rank. The buildings he would stay in had decent living conditions and he would have time, especially in Reims to wander the town. He would become acquainted with a French man who was in the French Air Force at the USO. The man would invite him to meet his family as well. He would go there a lot for dinners during his stay in France. He would be able to practice his French there. Reims was in fairly good condition, not a lot of damage done, unlike England. While he was there, he would write home every other day or so. And once in a while his mother would send him a can of spice cake. (24:30) Before he went over, he set up a code so they would know where he was. He would use family names to let him know where they were. For example, Aunt Daisy was England. He was never caught. He would only have names for bigger towns. He did get to go to Paris. While he was in Reims, he took an R&R down to Nice and he would go through Paris by truck. On his way back, he would stop in Paris. He loved it so much he would ask his CO if he could spend a week there. He was allowed. They had hotels where he could stay. He would go through the Red Cross, who would assign him to a hotel. While he was there he would see the Eiffel Tower, Napoleon’s grave, and all the sights. He would also go to a brothel while he was there too. It was something very new for him. He was pretty good at staying out of trouble. He did not drink, smoke or sleep with the prostitutes. There were no discipline issues in the office that he worked in. His CO had actually attended college in Paris. That was one reason he was allowed to stay for a week in Paris. He enjoyed his work very much and does not regret not going into a combat assignment. After places were captured he would be part of a group that would go and inspect the area. One of them was the Maginot Line. After that area had been bombed, he took his CO out to the nearest pill box. While they went out there, there were signs saying “MINES” “DANGER” and there were dead cattle all over. He CO got a long branch and waved it along the front of the jeep while they headed toward the pill box. Richard did not want to go in when he had gotten there. His CO would go in and inspect the place until he was satisfied that the reports he got were correct. �   The officers would also inspect things like railroad facilities and bridges. He would go out on some of these missions, but not all of them. While he spent time in France, he would constantly be moving while the line moved. He would spend the longest in Namur, Belgium. Belgium (30:50)      There he was stationed in a vacated German office building. There, one day he was out on a path, taking in the sites he came across a young Belgium man near the railroad tracks. He did not know if the man spoke English, so he asked him if French where a particular tourist site was. The man, who eventually pointed him in the right direction, was so happy that Richard spoke French that he invited him back to his house to meet his mother and sister. He would go there all his spare time. He would have a room of his own all weekend and the mother would press his uniform and polish his shoes for him every night. They treated him like a king. He would also meet the son of Belgium’s peacetime Minister of War. He was killed during a battle while he was serving in his tank. Battle of the Bulge and Germany (33:15)            He remembers he was stationed in Reims during the Battle of the Bulge. He remembers they were dropping barrels of gasoline that exploded on impact, so they had to hide in the shelters. It was very scary. He spent Christmas in Reims, during the Battle of the Bulge. They tried to have a nice dinner, but had no spices. But they did have the turkey, mashed potatoes and gravy. The unit he was with always flew combat. They would mainly focus on bombing factories and bridges and things. When he went into Germany, he would stay in huts with a mesh fence all around the camp. The local population would line up with empty pans to take any leftover food that the soldiers had. He thinks that the mess hall was put near the fence on purpose for this reason. He can’t remember where he was stationed in Germany, but the war was still going on when he got there. It was highly advised not to leave camp and wander around. He did have orders not to fraternize with the locals. He remembers now he was mistaken. He was still in Belgium when the Germans officially surrendered. So all of the warnings that he got were after the German surrender. While he was still in Belgium, he had accumulated enough points to go home. He was transferred to an Air Force weapons unit to go home. He was sent to Germany to meet up with them. From there he traveled from Germany by cattle car. It was a terrible smell. They were in the cart three days before arriving in Cherbourg, France. It was there he was shipped out. �Back to the US (39:05)        He was shipped out in the Fall. He arrived home just after Thanksgiving. They put them on an old Greek ship manned by French sailors. It was so old, that three days into the trip, it had sprung a leak. He watched them fix the leak by building a form around the leak and pouring instant concrete into it. About three more days, in about mid-Atlantic and the motors went out. They turned edgewise, toward the waves, which was dangerous. They went up to the deck to get onto the life rafts, but they were all washed off. They finally got a motor started and they took them home to NYC. When they passed the Statue of Liberty, there was not a dry eye on the whole boat. None of them thought they were going to get there. The next voyage the ship went through, it was scrapped. He was sent to Camp Atterbury where he would spend almost 20 hours a day processing discharge papers. He ended up staying longer than a lot of them. After getting all the work done, he was sent home by train. Post Duty (42:40)              On the way back to Lansing, he ended up wandering up to the first class observational car and meeting a nice businessman, who then asked him to stay. He was there for the rest of the trip, and it was very nice. Once he got home, his parents met him at the station and took him home. He started working with his father and was in the line of work for about two years. He went skiing in Cadillac and met up with a set of twins. After a bit of talking, they invited him to church, and he went the following Sunday. He met their sister there. He went up there every weekend for a month and it got to be too much. So he asked her to marry him. Four months later they were married in Cadillac. He’s been married now for 63 years. After they got married, she worked for the civil state department and discovered an opening for a clerk in the agriculture department. So he applied and got the job. He worked there for a while and then applied for a position of office manager at the labor mediation board. He got that as well. Then came an offer as an office manager in the highway department, which he took. In the highway department, he handled all the paperwork and the interviews. He believes that the job he had in the photo intelligence department in the army helped him learn how to be organized and helped him to learn how to work with people. Along with the interview, he is giving some documents as well. (47:15) He tells a story of his father while in WWI. Looking back, he feels that the service gave him a lot more confidence. He learned that he liked being around people. And he also found out that he liked to do office work. He remembers when he was taking training in St. Louis, there was a parade for President Roosevelt. It was hot, and they were wearing wool. A few of them fainted, including himself, right in front of the president. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShaullR Title A name given to the resource Shaull, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shaull, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Shaull was born in Lansing, Michigan, in 1921, and enlisted in the army in 1942. He wanted to become a pilot, but his vision was not good enough for the Army Air Corps, and he enrolled in a course for artillery observation pilots, but was then sent to radio repair school instead. When he arrived in England in the spring of 1944, he was again reassigned, this time to an office in London where he worked with aerial reconnaisance photographs. After the Normandy campaign, his unit moved first to Chartres, then to Reims, France, and then to Namur, Belgium, and finally into Germany after the war ended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d56aecb34b893abab981f74141472758.mp4 9eeeda9df26ff184183da612c5f9407f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3cb7b64c53fa1619e39faf95b40e0745.pdf 4ca856b8148c5376bf3d08c7cf5219c9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Glenn Sheathelm Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We’re talking today with Glenn Sheathelm of Muskegon, Michigan. And the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, to begin with Glenn, give us some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born here in Muskegon, Michigan. My dad was actually born in Lansing. Mom, here in Muskegon. They met playing tennis out at Pioneer Park, when they had a tennis court up there. My dad and mom both had brothers that served during World War 2. My heroes were quite frequently World War 2 vets. There were several that lived in the neighborhood and of course, I am named after an uncle that was killed during World War 2, also a Glenn H. Sheathelm who was killed between Remagen and Cologne in March of 1945. Interviewer: Alright. And what year were you born? Veteran: I was born in 1946. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and what did your family do for a living when you were a kid? Veteran: My dad was a school teacher at Muskegon Public Schools. He had taught at a couple other schools before then in a place called Delton down near Hastings. And he came to Muskegon initially with—because of Walt Mosner. Walt Mosner was the director of Camp �Pendalouan. He had been youth director at the Lansing YMCA and my dad knew him real well from there and Mosner asked my dad to come as a junior counselor to Pendalouan so that’s what brought my dad initially to Muskegon. And he liked the area. Later on, moved up to counselor and then assistant camp director during the summer. And that included part time while he was teaching. Now, during World War 2, in addition to teaching, he worked at Bennett Pumps. He and another printing teacher, I believe at Muskegon Heights High School, split a job: printing instructions for Bennett Pumps products that were going to the military all over the world. So, he figured that that was some way he could contribute to the war effort. He was actually on the borderline for being too old but my parents decided not to have children until the war was over and they knew really what the future had. (00:02:54) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, that’s why I was born in ’46 and like I said, my uncle was killed in ’45. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: And another one on my dad’s side was wounded while he was a Marine in the Pacific. And on my mom’s side, I had a couple that served in Europe. One, a troop carrier command, that he had nightmares about Market Garden because he had put together crews of several planes that went down during that. And the other one was a photographer for the Army. And he had some beautiful photographs that unfortunately for history, his daughter has not written back to me. You know, I said, “Those belong in a university library or, you know, a library of congress because he had beautiful black and white 8x10 photographs of things in World War 2 that you don’t see in books.” And then, you know, it’s a big wood bound volume. Interviewer: Alright. �Veteran: So, it was—it was one of those things that I am really sorry didn’t get…Didn’t get out there some place. I have always had an interest in history. Like I said, my heroes were guys that had served in World War 2. I started reading about the Civil War. I, you know, read Bruce Catton and everything he wrote. He was a Michigan author, incidentally. And I tried to expose students to history. You know, reading sections of, like, This Hallowed Ground to show them how beautifully the English language comes together and explains some of the stuff really clearly. So, I’ve—I’ve tried spreading history around ever since. Interviewer: Okay. (00:04:59) Veteran: Now, where did you want to jump to? Interviewer: Well, we are going to go back here. So, okay now, did you go to high school in Muskegon? Veteran: I went to Glenside School for grade school. One of the teachers I had was Isabelle Herbert who is still alive and I still go over and visit her at her nursing home about every 3 weeks. She was one that kind of encouraged me to go ahead and pursue just about anything I wanted to. You know, if I got done with my assignment early and got up and got out of my seat, went back and grabbed an encyclopedia, that’s fine I wasn’t bothering anybody—let Glenn do that. So, I probably read the section on World War 2 in the encyclopedia multiple times while I was in her class. And she also taught me a lot about science and nature, which I have enjoyed throughout my lifetime. And junior high, I went to Bunker. While I was at Bunker, I got involved in the band. I got to know people like William Stewart, Fred Royce. Fred Royce was a World War 2 vet who was also a POW. Unfortunately, he’s passed away because his story was amazing. He was captured during the Battle of the Bulge. Spent some time as a POW. One of the �guys in his unit was Jewish and you know, his story about that whole thing was really very impressive. I also found out from talking to him that, you know, being in combat was going to change people forever. (00:06:41) Veteran: And they didn’t call it PTSD at the time but after I got back from Vietnam, he and I had some long discussions on that particular topic. And…But he was actually the high school band director until Carl Beauregard came in. Now, Carl Beauregard has been very active not only there but at Western Michigan University with the West Michigan Wind Ensemble. And then as an instructor at Blue Lakes Fine Arts Camp. I was in the drum section in both Bunker and Muskegon High. I played with Jerry Royce in the drum section. Jory was later in the Air Force Band. Also, knowing Jerry Royce, I got down to the basement of their house and I again got exposed to a little bit of post-traumatic stress disorder. I went down to the basement and I had never seen great big wooden cases of 30-06 ammunition before. And I mean, we are talking big wooden cases with handles so somebody can grab ahold of each end and carry them around. They are loaded with boxes of ammo inside. And anyway, I found out that this did have some connection to a repeating nightmare that Fred had had about the Germans coming down this hallway at him and he’d shoot them and there were always more Germans. I’m thinking okay, that makes sense that he might have about 5 or 6000 rounds of 30-06 ammunition down in the basement. But he unfortunately, like I said, has passed away so we haven’t got his stories anymore. (00:08:31) Veteran: After—now, I mentioned that my heroes were World War 2 vets. Many of them were pilots. I decided I wanted to be a pilot. I applied for the Air Force Academy as well as Michigan Tech. At—I had been accepted to Michigan Tech and I was also accepted for—I got a nomination for Air Force Academy but when I went to take the physical, I failed the physical �because of a fractured left leg from skiing that had not healed properly. And I had taken a fall— baseball tip right across the eyebrow and I had a fracture there that apparently, somewhere along the line, damaged some muscle. So that—I didn’t focus well, even with glasses. So, I was you know, not allowed to go to the Air Force Academy. Well, at Michigan Tech I thought well, what am I going to change to since I can’t fly for the Air Force. And I thought hmmm…Smokey the Bear Forest Ranger sounds good. I could see myself as one of the historical guides at Gettysburg or Yosemite or Yellowstone. That sounded real good to me. Except as I got along there, I found out that they were more interested in having their forestry students work for papermills and cruise timber. So, they could make lots of money for the lumber companies. And I thought I have grown up right near a papermill, you know, lakeside area. Don’t want anything to do with papermills. So, I grabbed— Interviewer: Okay, just to back up a little moment here. When did you finish high school? (00:10:13) Veteran: I graduated in 1964. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: ’64, ’65 I was up at Michigan Tech. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I started ski patrolling up there. I got involved in search and rescue up there. Was actually living where history took place because it was the copper country. I mean, I used to explore old abandoned towns and illegally explore some old abandoned mine shafts. A good friend of mine was a geology major and we got into places we shouldn’t have been. One time when I wasn’t with him, all the climbing ropes were in my locker down in the sportsman’s den. �Now at that time at Michigan Tech, if you were a hunter, they had a place called The Sportsman’s Den where you could keep your firearms locked up in there and you know, when you want to go out hunting, you’d come down, sign the little card and put the card on the thing in the, you know, in the dorm there and then you could take your firearm out hunting. Well, I also had climbing ropes in there. And the particular day that they went out and decided to explore some mine shafts, I was ski patrolling at another area. And they didn’t ask my roommate for the key for my locker. And one of them slipped and fell and went about 150 feet down in one of the mine shafts on the ice. Well, they had to write a very apologetic letter in not only the school newspaper but the local newspaper for being there because the county had to actually plow a road to the top of this mine shaft and the Calumet Hecla Mine Rescue Team had to get two of them out. Now, one guy had gone down to help the one that had fallen and gotten hurt but he couldn’t get himself back up. And the other guy had gone for help. And so, you know, some of those—some of those stories do abound and one of the guys that was helping on that was—the guy that went for help was the guy who’s dad had been a conservation officer as well as, you know, an Air Force retiree. So, he was an interesting guy to be around. Interviewer: Yeah. (00:12:51) Veteran: Now, when I dropped out of Michigan Tech— Interviewer: So, when did you leave Michigan Tech? Veteran: That would have been 1965. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was just there one year. I had gotten very involved in ski patrol and search and rescue and stuff like that. And I liked that type of thing. But I thought well, I worked for a while at �Quality Beverage here in Muskegon for a little while. And during that time, I realized the Army is kind of breathing down my neck and I probably ought to decide how I am going to deal with this military thing. And I thought well, I want to be in a good unit. So, I went ahead and signed up for airborne artillery, which really pleased the recruiter because everybody wanted to sign up to be computer operators or something like that. You know? No, I didn’t. Don’t want to take the chance on getting in Vietnam and then some messy job but I thought well, if I end up in Vietnam, I’ll at least be with a good unit. So, I enlisted for airborne artillery. Interviewer: Now, why did you select artillery as opposed to just— (00:14:07) Veteran: Well, actually the artillery probably goes back…that was what my uncle was in that was killed in World War 2. And one of the earliest pictures of me, my dad plunked me down where I am sitting straddling the barrel of one of these 75-millimeter guns down here at the Veterans Memorial Park. You know, I am actually sitting there on top of the barrel of the firearm. I don’t know if it was predestined I’d end up in artillery. But you know, that sort of ended up—ended up that way. And also, I figured that with all the mathematics experience I had had at Michigan Tech since it is primarily an engineering school, that you know, it was not going to be hard learning any of the artillery jobs. So— Interviewer: Okay. (00:15:00) Veteran: So, I signed up for airborne artillery and during basic training, they gave us a whole battery of tests. I really was too tired to do well on that but I did surprisingly well. And they said, “Well, you can go to any school other than foreign language school. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Somehow, I got through high school without taking any foreign language. �Interviewer: Now, we are going to back up a little bit. So, when do you actually sign up then? When do you enlist? Veteran: I enlisted in May of 1965. Interviewer: Okay. And then had you had a draft physical already? Or do you go for a physical after you enlist? Veteran: I went to Fort Wayne, down near Detroit. They did the physical and from there, they loaded us directly onto buses and we went down to Fort Knox, Kentucky. Interviewer: Now, when they did the physical, did you tell them about your Air Force issues? Or…? Veteran: No, I did not. I did not tell them I had anything wrong physically. You know, check, check, check on everything. I wanted to go into airborne and I figured, you know, if they decide there is something wrong with me, they won’t let me do that. So, I sort of neglected to mention that. Now, that caught me a little later on. Interviewer: Okay. (00:16:21) Veteran: Because in basic training, I had scored real well on doing just about anything I wanted. And they decided I would make a good officer. Well, in order to become an officer, you got to get a secret clearance. One of the things the secret clearance turned up was the fact that I had been rejected for Air Force Academy for physical reasons. Which I got grilled on quite heavily on that, on why I lied on my enlistment papers down at…You know, and I said, “Well, I really wanted to serve my country. And I really wanted to serve in a good unit.” And they said, “Well, unfortunately, we are putting you down as not qualified for artillery because—or for airborne, �because of the leg injury.” They said, “We will still get you into artillery.” And they said that “we might even, you know, get you an OCS after a while.” Well, I went to—through basic training. Interviewer: Okay. Now, but—let’s talk about basic training. What was that experience like? Veteran: Ah, what? Interviewer: Basic training. Veteran: Well, okay. Basic training I found was more hard psychologically than it was physically. I ran cross country in high school. The physical stuff didn’t really bother me. They made me acting sergeant for a while. And they gave me one guy by the name of Wing who was a lot like in the movie Full Metal Jacket. You know, overweight, very much out of shape. And they said, “You know, it’s your responsibility, make—your responsibility to make sure this guy eventually passes the PT test.” Well, Wing and I would go out every night after supper with his pet log that [raises his arms as if he were carrying a log in front of his chest] he would hold like this. And we would go jogging around the parade grounds. Well, when Wing got ready for the PT test at the end of the session, he could take his elbows like this and stick them down inside the pair of pants that he had been issued, you know, when he first got to basic training. Well, he passed the PT test. I got congratulated for getting him through. (00:18:48) Veteran: And you know, we did a bunch of marching. We were actually trained with the M14 rifle because that had just fairly recently replaced the M1 Garand as the Army’s general rifle. And you know, I did fairly well with that but I never felt real comfortable with it because I had a lot of jams and stuff. Well, part of the reason was because sometimes I had duty at the sawdust �pit, just before we would beat each other around with the rifles and you know, they got awfully dirty. And you know, I had rifles blow up on me, I had just all kinds of stuff. So, I never really developed any particular confidence in the M14. And anyway, I got through basic training. My parents came down along with my sister to visit me. When I got out, we did a tour of the Smoky Mountains. Now one of the things: I had practically grown up sort of like a water baby, here in the Great Lakes. My dad was a real good swimmer. Matter of fact, he had rescued a girl that would have drowned in Duck Lake if he had not jumped in and pulled her out. So, he had me real comfortable with the Great Lakes and swimming. Well, anyway, we were at a swimming pool. My sister, who was 3 years younger than I was, and I swam in the pool and that—you know, they said, “Well, you can’t swim because haven’t got a life guard on duty.” And after they watched us swim for a while, “I guess you’re probably okay.” So, they let us—they let us enjoy the pool there at the motel without an adult supervising. And we enjoyed that quite a bit. Interviewer: Okay. So, from basic where do you go next? (00:20:50) Veteran: Next one was Fort Sill, Oklahoma which is home of the artillery. There I was trained primarily to work on gun sections, which would be the crew of an artillery piece. They trained us on the 105-millimeter, it was called the M101. It was a split trailed 105-millimeter that was very common both in World War 2 and Korea. It was a fairly old, old piece of artillery. But it—it was relatively accurate and the Army had lots of them. So, anyway, we did advanced artillery training at Fort Sill. I did first aid there on a couple accidents where people had gotten hurt. The worst one was at night. We were firing and one of the guys thought his particular artillery piece had already fired. And he stuck his arm up to catch the empty cases and eject it. It had not fired yet. It recoiled and you know, we’re talking a major open fracture. I heard that he got a medical discharge out of the service because you know, the arm was never going to work right after that. �But you know, I was the first one there to start first aid on him. They eventually got a medic. They, you know, had an ambulance there and took him away. But he never came back to our advanced individual training unit. Like I said, I understood he was— Interviewer: Right. Now, how long—yeah. (00:22:30) Veteran: --given a medical discharge. Interviewer: Now, how long did these—how long was basic training and how long was the AIT? Veteran: Basic was 8 weeks. AIT was also 8 weeks. And you know, we would go out and fire the artillery pieces. And now, on the gun crew, we didn’t do any of the slide rule stuff that was done by fire direction control. But we were given the data to put on the guns and tell us how many mills we had to be up, what the azimuth was to our aiming stakes, and we would go ahead and set those off and the guns, level their bubbles, everything. And the round would go 10 or 15 yards of where it was supposed to. You know, some place about 5 miles away. Interviewer: Now, with the 105, can you adjust the charge on the— (00:23:17) Veteran: Yes. The 105 was what was called a semi-fixed artillery piece. Now, that meant that the—it had the projectile and the case. And in the case, there were 7 bags and they were fastened together with the string. For instance, they might say “charge 5.” Well, we would pull bags 6 and 7 out, drape them over the side. The section chief of the gun section would look to verify that we had, you know, charge 5 and 6 and 7 were hanging on the outside and that it, you know, goes to command. Round approved, would push the thing down so it would cut the string and pass it on to a guy that would then go ahead and load the thing into the breech of the 105-millimeter howitzer. Now, the 105-millimeter howitzer had a breech block that went side to side. And you �would put it in and the breech block would slam shut. Now, other artillery pieces, like the one I worked on in Germany, that was what was called separate loading. That had separate—a separate bag that had bags of powder that would be put in the breech after you wiped it down with a watery mop so that sparks wouldn’t set the stuff off because if you had sparks in there when you put the powder bag in there, there was going to be this maybe 2000 degree flame thrower that was going to go ahead and basically cook anybody’s arm that was behind it. So, you know, you had to wipe the breech down after each round. And it had a primer that went in the back of the breech block. Looked about like a 38-special shell. And that was what started the thing that—the lightest bag had a red pad on it. It was actually loaded with black powder that ignited real quick and that would set the whole bunch of other bags off. (00:25:23) Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But anyway, anything else you wanted to ask about AIT? Interviewer: Yeah. How was AIT different from basic just in terms of how you were treated or how you used your time? Veteran: Actually, there was less of the emotional harassment and a lot more training time towards what we were actually going to be doing. Now, advanced individual training would vary, depending on what job you were going into. They were training me to work on gun crew. If I was being trained to fire direction control, they would have trained me on doing the slide roll type of thing. And those—and, or survey, which were the 3 major artillery skills that were taught. And then if you were a medic, they would of course give you training in that particular field. Now, you know, your first infantry division thing—there’s a book that I am reading now called Blood Trails, where the guy talks about you know, his experience in basic training after he �finished…You know, he said, “Well they went down the line. You first 9 guys are going to be medics.” And he said this did not make him feel real good because these guys, you know, could have been trained as mechanics or whatever and they are going to be putting somebody’s body back together. But he was with the first infantry division. The first cavalry seemed to have people generally that, you know, were trained in that job. (00:27:05) Interviewer: Okay. Well, normally in order to be a medic, they would send you for training. You didn’t just magically become a medic. Veteran: Well, he describes the situation in the First Cav that—or the first infantry division—that some of the guys were assigned jobs as medic were not actually trained in AIT as medics. Interviewer: Oh, so they arrive with the unit and then the unit just tosses them— Veteran: Yeah, and then unit went ahead and assigned them to someplace else. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Like in Germany, we had one guy that was a—he had been a multi engine pilot. You know, had the license for multi engine, and they assigned him to a gun crew. You know, a 105millimeter howitzer. You know? It’s like okay. Interviewer: Now, to go back to your story, I guess. Now, while you were in AIT, I mean, could you go off base when you were off duty? Or…? Veteran: Yeah, I actually have more stories about Fort Sill, Oklahoma when I came back through there one time later on. We will get to that. But I—yeah, I did do a little bit off base. Got into Lawton a couple times. But also, I played drums for the battalion when the battalion marched anywhere so if the battalion or company was doing something that Saturday morning, or you �know, I ended up playing drums for them to march them from. And our battalion commander was real pleased with that because we had a drummer that actually knew what he was doing. And…So, yeah, I didn’t get out and do a whole lot when I was in the AIT. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so after AIT, what happens next? (00:28:52) Veteran: Then I came home for about a 2 week leave and then went to Fort Dix, New Jersey. They decided to send me to Europe instead of Vietnam. Got on a plane, flew to Frankfurt—the Rhein-Main Air Force Base to Frankfurt, and then they gave me a train ticket to Nuremberg. And took the train down to Nuremberg and I also had a little card and a phone number I was supposed to call when I got to the train station. And I remember the train station. It would just really impress me by the size of it in Nuremberg. Well, there was a deuce and a half truck that picked me up after I made the phone call. And then things got real strange. The deuce and a half took me to the south side of town. And there was a guy at the gate, you know, with a rifle and a guard post. And we went into this complex that looked more like a castle than an Army barracks. I mean, I was used to the Army barracks at Fort Knox, Kentucky and Fort Sill, which were leftover ones that they built during World War 2 that were made out of wood and were probably built to last 10 years at most and they were going to knock them down. But we are still using those. Well, here’s this huge archway that we drove into. (00:30:32) Veteran: And the deuce and a half stopped. And he says, “Well, this is where you get out.” He said, “You go out firstly out of this archway and then you turn left.” And he said, “There will be two quadrangles.” And I said, “Are they painted on the ground?” He says, “No, quadrangle buildings.” And I mean, these were areas that had about a block and a half square inside this inside quadrangle. And the building is about 5-stories high. And stone. And the archway that I am standing in…I look up and lo and behold, there’s all this inlaid stone all in the ceiling in these �big huge lights like you see in the inside of a church. And I am thinking this sure doesn’t look like any Army barracks I have ever been to before. And, you know, I am just kind of turning my head around like this, looking at it thinking well, this is really kind of bizarre. But I grabbed my duffel bag and started walking out of this archway. And as I got out of the archway, there was a big balcony overhead. And I couldn’t see all of the balcony, I was just looking at the bottom of it first. And I walked out to where the parade ground started because that’s where the road was, right along the edge of the parade ground. And I turned around and looked back and all of a sudden, the hair stood up on the back of my neck. I’d seen this place before. Matter of fact, I had seen it watching Walter Cronkite and the program 20th Century. Except in—while Walter Cronkite was talking, Adolf Hitler was standing on that balcony like this and there were half trucks full of SS troops running underneath it. You know, through this same road that I walked out to this left-hand turn road. And I thought oh my goodness. I am now at a big SS barracks. (00:32:43) Veteran: And I am thinking okay, that is beginning to make a little sense now because I can see pockmarks in the stone. Okay yeah, this was here during World War 2. And then it was shot at and bombed some. And anyway, I followed instructions and walked up to the third floor where Charlie Battery was because I was being assigned to Charlie Battery, 2nd of the 34th Artillery [Regiment]. And when I got to—when I got up there, I set down my orders and introduced myself. And the person in charge said, “Okay. You’re going to be assigned to…” I think it was the 5th section, but anyway he said, “You can go ahead. There’s, you know, bunks down there and a wall of lockers.” And he said, “You know, you can get a key for the wall locker and everything tomorrow.” So, I walked down there and I thought yep, this is really strange for a barracks because the hall I was walking through was about the width of a two-lane highway. And �it’s polished stone floor. I am thinking I can see why these SS guys got the idea they could conquer the world because you can imagine people goose stepping down these hallways with a clack, clack, clack. And I thought yeah, this place was all built for the psychological effect too. And there were racks built into the wall where they used to keep firearms at one time. They didn’t then because, you know, that was from the old German days. And I walked into the— walked into the room that I was assigned to and you know, I was—I walked through the room. Yeah, the walls are about this thick going from the hallway to the room. (00:34:54) Veteran: And I got in the room and looked out the window and yeah, these walls are just about 3 feet thick stone. And you know…wow. And anyway, I slept the first night there. And I immediately started…what can I find out about this place? And they wouldn’t let us off base for the first 3 weeks. We had to go through what was Soviet Military Liaison Mission Training. Now, Soviet Military Liaison was a semi-legal organized Russian spy group that was supposed to drive certain cars with certain types of license plates that could go around and visit our military post but there were areas that they could not get into and if they tried to get into them, they were supposed to be stopped and arrested and so forth. And also, they told us about, you know, talking to people and you know, civilians outside. About not saying anything about our unit because the Cold War was on and we didn’t want the other side to know that our unit was only at about half strength. And I mean, we went through great pains to make it look like we had more people and more rank than we really did. Like later—well, when I was driving when we went out on alerts outside military areas, I wore corporal stripes even though I was only a PFC at the time, driving this 27-ton armored vehicle. (00:36:49) Veteran: I’d done real well on the driver’s test. They decided okay, we’ll start you in that job. And there was a guy that was really a spec 4 that was wearing E-6 striped that was standing in �the top of the turret of this thing. Now, this 155 self-propelled that looks like a tank but it’s got a bigger gun on it and it doesn’t have as much armor on it. Like a 50-caliber piercing round is going to come through that aluminum alloy armor and rattle around the inside for a while. But anyway, that is except if it’s in the front slope. And I thought well, this is kind of nice because you know as a driver, I am sort of behind the front slope. And anyway, it was one of those big, huge things that you’d think could go just about anywhere but you know, they tend to slide and stuff in the mud. And even worse was when winter came. We got ice on the cobblestones. Sometimes, it got so bad you were sitting in a 27-ton hockey puck. And like the 2nd and 17th, it had 8-inch self-propelled. One time there was a little Volkswagen parked on the corner. And by the time the battery had gone over it, it looked like a bale of scrap metal. You know? It just… There wasn’t much left of it except that sort of rectangular hunk of scrap that was ground clearance on it, on the 8-inch howitzers. (00:38:31) Veteran: But like I said, I tried learning as much as I could about the barracks. I had probably only been there about 3 days when I asked one of the other guys who had been there for a while. He said that—I asked him, I said, “What’s the castle like?” And he says, “The castle?” I said, “yeah, the castle on the other side of town.” He said, “You haven’t been off base yet. How do you know about the castle?” And I said, “Well, you can see it from the roof.” And this guy—you know, eyes got about this big. “The roof? How did you get up on the roof?” And I managed to find a way I could get myself up on the roof. And I could see all across Nuremberg from up there. And also, off on the—as I was looking towards the castle, off on the right, is this big horseshoe shaped building, which officially was known as Osterlings Rundgebau. Well, or Osterling’s Round Building. If you read the Nazi stuff on, you know, that time period, it’s called Kongresshalle and it's where Hitler planned on having the puppet rulers of the different �countries. And he was going to stand at his little podium in the middle and give the office—the orders of the day to all of these people. Well it’s—the building is still there. There were still some places where there was bomb damage in the roof. But I found out later on that some of it was being used as storage and some of it was being used as practice rooms for the Nuremberg Symphony Orchestra where these masters would have other kids from the high schools and stuff and would teach violin lessons and clarinet lessons and so forth inside of that building. So, it was still being used for something and it…But I found out what its original intent was. (00:40:35) Veteran: Well, I could see part of a building beyond that. It was a long stadium type building with columns sticking up. And I couldn’t see the center section of it real well but I thought could that be Zeppelinwiese? Well, after I was able to get a pass to go out there, I found out yeah, it was Zeppelinwiese, which is where Hitler would also stand there with the—everybody, all the troops, out in front, tanks out in front and so forth. And I’d also seen that on newsreels when it was totally intact. And I had also seen newsreels when Patton’s Third Army got there. Because what they did—there was a big swastika surrounded by a wreath up on the top. And Patton had his demolition people from the Third Army go ahead and blow that off. And of course, the newsreels took pictures of this big swastika and wreath tumbling off the roof of this building. Okay, that one is kind of interesting too. And after I had been there a while, I got a chance to actually go out to the castle and so forth. And I enjoyed taking pictures. And I signed up for a photography class in the post. Well, the photography instructor had been a photography instructor—or, he had been a photographer for Signal, which was the German Army’s magazine during World War 2. He had made documentaries showing the German people that the American bombing really wasn’t doing any real damage. He had pictures of a park that everybody knew in Berlin with German people having a picnic in this park. Of course, what you didn’t know was �that they had to have about a battalion of German soldiers moving in trees that actually had branches on them and planting them so that that’s all you saw in the background and you didn’t see the ruined buildings and so forth. (00:42:50) Veteran: And he told me how they had made the thing and he says, “Yes, you can make photographs lie.” And I used some of those techniques a little bit later on. Like, I had pictures of various historic buildings, including Fayette which is a state park in the Upper Peninsula, when I was teaching school. And kids said, “Do you ever go to anyplace that other people go to too?” Because they never saw other tourists in my pictures. And I said, “Well, you see that old wooden wall with the handle and the trough?” I said, “You notice I got it at a fairly low angle.” I said, “That trough is hiding a school bus.” And you know…So, I used some of those angle things later on. But an interesting thing about him was that he had also done some movies and so forth in Nuremberg during the Nazi Party rallies as well as stole pictures. And he gave me some of those stole pictures and stuff later on. And I mentioned to him, I said, “You know, our parade ground is cobblestone.” I said, “One side of it seems to develop frost and the other side of it doesn’t early in the winter.” And I said, “Any reason for that?” And he wrote out a note in German and gave it to me. And he said, “You know where the boiler works is?” And I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “Go down to the boiler works.” And he says, “It’s got the name of a guy on the top. And he’ll show you.” So, I went down to the boiler works. I couldn’t speak much German. And this German guy goes and meets me at the door and has a steel beam lighter and he motions for me to follow him. (00:44:50) Veteran: And we go through the boiler plant and there’s a tunnel that goes out. And I figure yeah, this is pretty close to where the parade ground is. And I looked and from this catwalk we were on, you could see the tails of ME 262 jets sticking out of the water. During World War 2, �we damaged their storm sewer systems such that water got into a section of what had once been an aircraft assembly plant underneath their parade ground. And the Americans had tried to go ahead and get the water out of there except the Germans had left booby traps. After they lost several demolitions experts, they decided to leave the storm sewer water down in there. So, there’s a whole bunch of highly—what were at one time—highly valuable, historical ME 262 jets rusting away down underneath their parade ground. And he also showed me a couple other places where I could get underneath the buildings and there were half trucks like that too, in underground storage areas that were partially underwater. (00:46:13) Veteran: And our barracks area was actually some places 3, some places 4 stories deep below ground. And we had special weapons things there where we had classes on nukes and nerve gases and so forth. But they had classrooms down there and I was involved in a bunch of those because I did have a secret clearance. But one way to get the German taxi cab drivers a little angry, if you were coming back into town, was to say, “SS Caserne.” And they didn’t like to be reminded that that barracks had once been an SS barracks. (00:47:00) Interviewer: Okay. Now, you mentioned getting a security clearance. What did you need that for? Veteran: Well, the thing is, they did that because I had—they were going to send me to OCS at one time. And also, once I had the security clearance, they went ahead and upgraded things all the time so I could go to the special weapons classes and learn how to put together the detonating devices and nuclear warheads. Which, you know, you think you mean the military actually turned loose this technology to 19 and 20-year olds? Yes, they did. You know, we had way too much responsibility for, you know, what our job classifications were. And then now, to get into the particular area where these nuclear warheads were, you know, there had to be an officer that �had to open the thing up. But they made sure that they had one person out of every 2 gun sections that knew how to actually arm the warheads after they were in our vehicle if they got into World War 3. And they had a place they referred to as the Fulda Gap where they figured they—the East Germans and Russians would come through with large amounts of tanks and stuff. And we had—we had some pre-planned targets on bridges and so forth there. And that was basically to slow them down until the family members of the troops and so forth, all the civilians, could get to ports and get out of there because you know, it was like—you know, you’re just being sacrificed to hold them up for a couple, 3 weeks, you know. And your nukes and your artillery rounds, which I started doing the checking on and I thought now, according to the figures, we wont quite glow in the dark after we fire these things because the range, even with the rocket assisted projectiles, which you know gave it more oomph, then the charge 7, which was normal maximum load that they called a wrap-around—or a rocket assisted projectile—and that would kick it out farther. But it, you know, we were still going to get some radiation from these things. (00:49:38) Interviewer: Not to mention whatever radiation you got from whatever came your way. Veteran: Yeah, whatever was coming our way too. But yeah, it was—it was one of those glowin-the-dark type of prospects if something went. And there were a couple incidents where things got pretty iffy. There was an American Major that was killed that was part of the American liaison group that was shot by the Russians. And that caused an incident. The only incident that I was involved in got quieted down pretty quick. That was one where we were near the Czechoslovakian border. We were on a training exercise. We were, you know, out there with our 155 self-propels, jeeps and trucks and so forth. And we got a call for help from one of the guard posts along the Czechoslovakian border. There were some people that were coming from east to �west that had been shot at by the East Germans or Czechoslovakians, you know, in one of the towers. And there were some of them that were dead. There were some of them that were wounded. An American had gone out there and tried rescuing them. He had been shot and wounded and these guys were asking for help. (00:51:07) Veteran: The battery executive officer, you know, picked two vehicles, mine being one of them. And you know, said, “Follow me.” We went to the border and he immediately started yelling commands. You know, like “target that tower!” And we unhooked the travel locks and opened the breech box and cranked the barrel around. I said, “Sir, we haven’t got any live ammunition for the main gun.” And he said, “They don’t know that.” And so, we cranked the main gun around on the thing and you never saw some people abandon their tower so fast in your life as those guys did. You know, coming down when they saw this huge barrel swinging around on them. But that was the only one of the border incidents that I was involved in. Like I said, the guys abandoned the tower. An armored personnel carrier went out along with the other vehicle that I was with and you know, since they had armored plates that at least had small arms on, the 155-SP. And they went out there and picked up the people that had come across the border. And after about an hour and a half, two hours, some generals somewhere had gotten together and decided okay, everybody be cool about this. We went back but… Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did you spend in Germany? (00:52:48) Veteran: I spent just about 11 months there. Now, while I was in Germany, I also had a chance to do some things that were pretty unusual. One day I was in the NCO club and I was playing the piano and pretty quick, I am surrounded by about a half dozen beautiful women who were singing Broadway show tunes as I am playing the piano. And everybody is kind of looking at me: how did he do that? Well, it turned out that USO had sent these Miss America also rans who �were singers to do a variety show at various places around Europe. And that—these women had showed up a little bit earlier and they heard me playing Broadway show tunes and they, you know, they started singing them. Well, they passed the word on to somebody else who later on, you know, mentioned that I knew how to play the piano. And the service club program got ahold of me and said, “We would you like to play piano with the variety group the month of November, 1965 in southern Germany?” So, for a whole month, I played piano with a jazz trio and variety group that went around the various military bases in southern Germany, which was a real, you know, real step aside for—you know, a guy that’s used to working at a gun cruiser with big guns and big noises. (00:54:30) Veteran: And they asked about, you know, we can get your orders cut where you stay here and do this type of thing? And I said, “No. I signed up for artillery. I am going to go back to artillery. I had a nice break; I enjoyed this but, you know, I’ll go back to my artillery unit.” Well, I did and then we got some replacements in. Now these guys—there’s a 34th Artillery in Germany—2nd of the 34th Artillery, which I was in. except there was also a 34th Signal Corps in Germany. Somebody did the wrong thing on a typewriter. There were about 40 guys that were supposed to go to 34th Signal to repair telephone lines and they showed up at 34th Artillery. Now, like I mentioned, we were about half strength at that time. Our battalion commander was not about to let anybody know they’d goofed. So, these guys end up getting moved into 34th Artillery. And in the section bay that I was in, there were two guys that were from this 34th Signal. And they came in and started asking about “Well, where do we go to fix the lines?” And I said, “What are you talking about?” And they said, “Well, we are phoneline men.” I said, “This is an artillery unit.” And they said, “Well, what are we going to do here?” And I said, “You have just been assigned to a gun section.” And they said, “A gun section? What do you mean a gun section?” I said, �“Well, we have this thing called a track.” And they said, “You mean like railroad tracks?” “No, this is a 27-ton armored vehicle that’s tracked like a tank and it has this big cannon on it.” And they’re totally aghast at this and can’t figure anything out. You know, like “Well, what do they really look like? What is it like inside? What do you do in those?” (00:56:36) Veteran: And I finally gave up but I went down and asked the first sergeant, I said, “I’ve got these guys asking me all kinds of questions. And since I have been answering the questions, they keep asking more.” And I said, “It would help if I could just show them what the thing looked like.” So, he calls down to the guardhouse and tells them that I am bringing yea number of people down there. And I took one of the guys as a ground guide for me. And we went down there and I, you know, had the key, opened up the back of the thing, swung the doors open. And shined the flashlight around, explained what all the different stuff was and you know, about the pentacycles. I go in order and they said, “Well, what’s it like when it moves?” And I said, “I’ll tell you what: I’ll just let three of you guys get in and I’ll have somebody as a ground guide. And I’ll drive it around the motor pool.” So, the rest of them watched as I went ahead and of course, this was all—this was winter months. You know, winter was just getting over at that time and so I had to go ahead and turn on pre-heater and stuff. We are talking about a great big, huge diesel engine. And I went ahead and fired the thing up and it blew the white smoke for a while and then eventually it turned to black and I went ahead and checked with the ground guide and, you know, that I was clear to pull forward. I pulled forward, went around the motor pool and came back in. The guys had been, you know, shaking around a bit on the inside. But they thought this was really cool. This was a whole lot better than putting phonelines together. They thought this was neat. So, about two days after that, our battalion commander says, “Okay, we are going to train �all of these guys as artillerymen. Now, these guys have not been through artillery AIT, they had been through common AIT to fix phonelines.” (00:58:44) Veteran: And so, he assigned me to the training group that would go ahead and teach these guys the skills of artillery. So, I taught them how to cut charges and you know, the loading procedure for getting the rounds into the vehicle and what different jobs that they would do. We didn’t put them on the gunner’s slot or assistant gunner’s slot, or the driver’s slot at the time because those were kind of important. We wanted people that really knew what they were doing there. But we used them and, you know, to go ahead and cut charges. I showed them how to put a, you know, cut the time fuses and stuff like that. And to, you know, make sure everything was right there. And anyway, about 3 or 4 weeks later, somebody found out that these guys had been shipped to the wrong place. And most of them decided they wanted to stay with us instead of go to the 34th Signal because this was a whole lot more interesting. And you know, the idea that at 0 dark 30 in the morning, we might go out on an alert some place in this big armored vehicle and go whaling down this gravel road out in the middle of nowhere and pull up and then you’d watch daylight come and you’re overlooking this field of hops and stuff for, you know, making beer and so forth. Then you know, they’ve got all the data set on the guns and yep, if this had actually turned into World War 3, we would be firing right now. And you know, we would have those types of alerts and they—they were kind of fascinated by that. (01:00:30) Veteran: And then I went to a place called Grafenwöhr. Grafenwöhr was filtrating area. That is, the Germans had fired artillery back there in the 1800s. So, there’s a bunch of duds laying around, a bunch of smashed up stuff laying all over the place. And also, there was a saying about Grafenwöhr that Grafenwöhr is the only place that you could run into so much dust that you won’t see the mud hole that’s going to swallow your vehicle. And it was just about that bad. You �know like I said, it was all chewed up by artillery fire and armored vehicles just charging all over it for years and years and years. Well, they got a chance to actually fire the artillery pieces at Grafenwöhr. One time there was a—what they called a target acquisition battery. And the target acquisition battery was one that uses radar to figure out where the enemy shells are coming from. (01:01:34) Interviewer: Okay. Alright, we are back for hour number 2 with Glenn Sheathelm. So… Veteran: Okay. My—this was actually my third trip to Grafenwöhr, when we were training these new guys. The first trip was during mid-winter and when you’re dealing with 27-ton armored vehicles, you quickly learn you don’t grab anything without mittens on because your skin is going to peel right off. We had tents that we actually slept in that were on concrete slabs. They were heated by coal stoves. And sometimes the coal stoves didn’t burn real well. Well, we found that a little bit of diesel fuel would blow the soot out so that they would breathe a little better and that worked pretty good. Except one day, one of the guys went to the wrong 55-gallon drum to fill up his coffee can with whatever he thought was diesel fuel. It was aviation gas. And he came back to the coal stove, started pouring it in. Flames jumped up to the coffee can he was holding. Of course, he let go of that which then hit the floor. And so, we got burning gas all over the floor of the inside of this GP medium tent. We are talking about a tent maybe 16 or 18 feet wide by maybe 30 feet long. (01:03:16) Veteran: And anyway, we got flames. And of course, there was one of the guys that was real anxious to get out of his sleeping bag and he—the zipper ripped and he jumped out of it and then his sleeping bag caught fire and just kind of exploded into this little bunch of sparklers. Everybody was real anxious to get out of their sleeping bags and out. And I remember, you know, exiting underneath the sidewall of the tent and scraping myself all up as I crawled on the �concrete because the smoke was so bad, I couldn’t really see exactly where the end of the tent was. Now, this GP medium tent has two tent poles in it—one part way down towards each end. They were probably, oh, about that big. And one of the guys in the process heading for the doorway, ran smack dab into one of those—one of those tent poles. And he knocked himself out and I found out that, you know, that they had thought he had run into a tent pole. I got down low, grabbed ahold of him, pulled him the rest of the way out. He was really scraped up bad after I dragged him across the concrete. But anyway, that was one of our excitements during that winter there. (01:04:46) Veteran: The other time we had gone there and fired 105-millimeter howitzers because this target acquisition unit used radar to track the rounds, they had ordered the wrong kind of ammunition for us. And I knew how to run a 105 as well as a 155 so I got picked to be part of the crew on that. And we went out and shot the 155 so they could figure out where we were shooting from and track the thing back. So, I had been at Grafenwöhr several times. And it was exciting but always dusty and dirty. I mentioned about having pictures, I got one picture where I looked like a Mexican bandit—you got, you know, here and goggles and nothing but just covered with dust. And then standing up next to the driver, you know, in the driver’s compartment and you know, gives people an idea of how bad the dust really was out there. And we also, like I said, ran some field problems where we are actually out in the Germany countryside. While we— Interviewer: Okay, just to go back to the Grafenwöhr for a minute. You mentioned there was a lot of unexplored ordinance out there. Were you driving right over it? (01:06:04) Veteran: They usually had little red flags. Now, sometimes we drove over stuff without realizing we were going over it. But when they found the stuff, they would put little red flags and we �would go around it until we had an EOD team come blow it up. But we undoubtedly ran over some old stuff somewhere along the line. Interviewer: Okay. But as far as you know, there weren’t any incidents where anything blew up? Veteran: No, I can’t actually say that. Because there were—there were incidents where people were injured, you know, going ahead and digging out an old mortar round with a trenching tool to dig a foxhole. And yeah, there were people injured. Now, there was one incident too. It was what we call an artillery incident and it involved an investigation. Didn’t involve our unit. And anyway, either on the receiving end or the sending end, but there was a thing called an aiming circle and it looks sort of like a surveyor’s transit. But it can be set up 3200 mills out or 180 degrees wrong. So, the lieutenant who sets this up, or chief of smoke which is the chief of the firing battery, is responsible for checking to make sure which direction he’s actually got this thing oriented. Well, it turned out that there was some first lieutenant somewhere who hadn’t done that. And the 8-inch were set up to fire the wrong way. The lanyard was jerked and there were immediate radio calls that, you know, Grafenwöhr niner niner, cease fire immediately. So, in other words, anybody firing anything at a whole post to Grafenwöhr. You know, niner niner means everybody stop shooting. And then they figured out what had happened. And I have never seen so much brass investigating an artillery incident as that one. Because an 8-inch round is, you know, almost 200-pounds of steel and explosive. And it landed in a mess hall. Fortunately, there was nobody in there other than a couple KPs and a cook at the time. (01:08:33) Veteran: You know, and it would have been a major disaster if the unit had been in there for lunch or something at the time. But yeah there was lots of brass surrounding investigating that. And later—well, when I got to Vietnam, there was an officer that was a full observer that had �been safety officer for another unit earlier and I never ran into anybody so cautious about what he was doing. And but it—like I said, we were at Grafenwöhr several times. Now, one of the few problems we’d get in the countryside…Our battery was set up and they sent me out with the sergeant and one other guy who was the radio operator for the group. And we were supposed to do a recon on some road junctions that were a distance away. Well, it turns out that the aggressor, who was actually the Third Infantry Division, that’s the same one that Audie Murphy was in during World War 2. They had blue and white stripes on their vehicles. And anyway, they chased our battery away. So, here I am—I haven’t got radio communication with anybody because they’re too far away. And I don’t know where we are supposed to go and the sergeant doesn’t know where we are supposed to go either. We are outside of a little town called Fürth which is outside of Nuremberg. And from the map I knew, you know, where we were and everything and what road we were on. but I couldn’t tell anybody because I couldn’t reach anybody that was on our side on the radio. So, we sat there for a while and eventually there’s this jeep that comes down the road underneath this overpass. And just as he gets out of the overpass, he stops. (01:10:41) Veteran: And there’s this lieutenant in the front seat; he’s looking at his map. I thought, hmm. They’re the bad guys in this field problem. I whispered to the sergeant, “Why don’t we just capture them and their jeep?” We did. And now what do we do? Well, we don’t really know what exactly we are going to do but we know where we are. So, you know, they had me navigate us back to where our barracks was in Nuremberg where we turned these 3 guys over and we missed the last two days of the field problem because they’re….we are in Nuremberg with these guys that we captured, you know. And so, the field problem ended right there. Now, while that field problem was going on, a guy by the name of Johnny Rogers who had been my section chief �and I had worked with him as far as getting ready for the 7th Army gunnery test, which you know was one of the things that identifies some of the top people in gunnery in the whole 7th Army. And he did very, very well on that. Like I said, I had worked with him with the test target and stuff, so he was doing a lot of stuff real fast including laying the battery. And you know, sometime—sometimes we would use my artillery piece, sometimes I’d just use, you know, wooden stakes and mark them where the site was and you’d go ahead and lay the stuff from there. But anyway, he got a lot of practice and did real well on the test. Johnny Rogers was an E6. We had two E-7s and an E-8 in our battery. (01:12:29) Veteran: Johnny Rogers got appointed chief of smoke or chief of firing battery, which is the most important job in a firing battery. You know, the lieutenants and captains may think they run the show, but it’s the chief of smoke that you know, if he’s good, he can run the whole show by himself. Well, it turns out that one of these guys that outranked him and also had more log time and grade was very anti-black. Johnny Rogers was black. I don’t know whether he was a member of the Klu Klux Klan or just knew where there was a Klu Klux Klan cell in 2nd Armored Cavalry regiment which was also stationed at Nurem… barracks in Nuremberg. But anyway, I was out running around the parade field one night and I noticed 8 guys grabbed ahold of a vehicle and flipped it over outside of the NCO club. And I ran after them and yelled for the guard as I was doing so. And they broke up because they knew I couldn’t chase all of them, you know, at one time. And one of the guys ran into one of the barracks areas that I knew pretty well. He didn’t—apparently didn’t know it real well and didn’t realize that he was going to run into a dead end and was going to have to come back to the stairway. Well, he came back towards the stairway and I tackled him just as he was starting up. And both of us went down and he came out with a switchblade. And I was about ready to put a foot in the side of his head and I hear this �she-shunk—an M-14 bolt closing behind me. Everybody be nice. So, I stopped and the guard asked me what was going on and I mentioned about this vehicle being flipped over and he says, “Yeah, I am aware of that.” And I said, “This guy was one of the guys flipping it over.” I said, “I wasn’t able to chase down the other guys but this guy was definitely one of them.” (01:14:42) Veteran: So, anyway they took him away and a little bit later on, there was an officer from second enlisted student battery—or I mean second armored cav, that tried to get me to change my story. And I said, “No.” Well, about that time, I found out that the vehicle also belonged to Johnny Rogers. And Johnny Rogers had his wife and two kids in Germany. And he didn’t want to make a real big fuss because he was worried about the Klan coming after his family. I had a couple Klansmen try to get—try to get to me. Like I said, this was after we had come back from field problem. Once I was down at the wash rack and I had taken the 155s and howitzer down there. And you know, used the hose and was spraying it off and getting the mud and stuff off of it. And I saw these two guys coming towards me; they looked like they were up to no good. And so, I went to the back of the vehicle, reached in and grabbed a pick axe handle. Well, one of these guys came at me with his switchblade out. I promptly broke his wrist and the other guy ran away. Well, there was some concern that I was sort of a loose cannon around the area and so I got shipped back to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. I thought I was going to go to gunnery instructor’s school. (01:16:30) Interviewer: So, when was this that you go to Fort Sill now? Veteran: This was in the late summer of 1966. And anyway, I was sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. And thinking I was going to go to gunnery instructor’s school because I had applied for that. And I’d cancelled my application for officer candidate school because this time, if I had gone to officer candidate school, it would have meant another year in the service. I thought no, you �know. Without a college degree, it’s not really a good job to go to OCS because you know, you’re going to make maybe captain before they rift you out, if you survive that long. And I thought well, you know, if I am going to become an officer, I might make a career out of it. Well, I thought well, I got to get the college degree first so I told them no, I didn’t want to go to OCS. They said, “Well, if you don’t go to OCS, you’re going to go to Vietnam.” I said, “Okay, your point is since all these crispy new second lieutenants are going to go to Vietnam as artillery forward observers? I’ll take my chances.” So, they sent me to a place called second enlistment’s student battery, which was on the main post. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I do want to pause here and back up a little bit… (01:17:51) Veteran: Okay. Interviewer: There are some other aspects of Germany. Part of it is, while you were in Germany, did you pay much attention to what was happening in Vietnam or anything like that? Or were you just focused on— Veteran: Yeah, I did pay some attention on it and on a Stars and Stripes magazine, I saw a picture of a guy by the last name of Scanlon standing on top of an enemy bunker with a captured weapon. He had been in basic training with me. And but my view of Vietnam at that time was you know, if we want to fight communism, we could have gone a short distance off of our coast and gone to Cuba. You know, why—why this big fuss about communism halfway around the world? You know, it was like I am not sure this is really a logical war to be involved in because of the distance and supply problems. You know, it’s halfway around the world. Most of the people in the United States didn’t even know where Vietnam was; they knew where Cuba was because it was just off the coast of Florida. I mean, it seemed like, you know why the big fuss �about—why do we have to go to Vietnam? I had read some about Vietnam when I was in Germany but not a lot. I did most of my reading about Vietnam when I was at Fort Sill, at second enlistment student battery. Interviewer: Alright. And then the other thing about Germany is: how did the German civilians seem to view the American soldiers? (01:19:21) Veteran: Generally, pretty good except for the ones where American soldiers had gone to bars and gotten in fights and so forth. But I found Germans quite willing to show me around in Germany to some of the churches. One night, in the Nazi Party rally area, I had gone into one of these places, entrance “verboten” or “forbidden.” It was a big tower. There were a whole bunch of big towers. They surrounded an area about ¾ of a mile on a side called Marsfeld and you know, which stands for marching field, really. But it was supposed to be a place where Hitler was going to raise the next master race, complete with big beams over the top. This would have dwarfed the super bowl type of buildings, you know. But the building never got completed. You know, there was bomb damage to it. Hitler had other things to do with any manpower, including slave manpower, that he’d use for that. Well, one of these towers—it was pretty close to completed—was being used for a rotating beacon for the airport for the military, which was actually inside of this Marsfeld area. They didn’t have big planes in there; they had, you know, Beavers and Otters and some helicopters. You know, they were basically light observation planes and you know, hacks and stuff for Army officers. (01:21:13) Veteran: There was a, you know, the equivalent of a Beech 18 that was there, which was a twinengine thing. But I think the largest plane I ever saw inside of there was a C-7 Caribou, which is a short take-off and landing cargo plane that was used quite a bit in Vietnam. But anyway, I was in the tower right next to that and I had gone up to the top and I was just sitting there, admiring �the scenery. And I heard this bunch of footsteps on the—or, a set of footsteps on the stairways and stuff coming around the inside of this tower. And I thought I sure hope it’s not a policeman. It was his dog. And I thought how am I going to explain this? And I thought well, I can always play super dumb. And so anyway, the guy comes out: it’s not a policeman. It’s a guy that’s a…what do they call them? Youth hosteling—college student around Germany. And he’s got his guitar with him. And he opens up his guitar case and he’s sitting up there and I am looking at him. And in the background is this Zeppelinwiese, this place where Hitler one time had all of his troops lined up and…Oh, that’s probably a mile, mile and a quarter away but I can see it off there in the distance because it was just a huge building. And he gets out his guitar and he’s singing this song: where have all the flowers gone, long time passing, young girls picked from everyone, young girls gone to young men everyone, where have all the young men gone, gone to soldiers everyone. You know? And anyway, he’s singing this song up there on the top of this big tower. I am thinking, how appropriate. You know, here’s this anti-war Peter, Paul and Mary I believe, song that he’s singing on top of this. And you know, he’s singing it in German. (01:23:25) Veteran: And I thought gee, this is kind of weird. And you know, I listened to him for a while and then it was getting close to sunset so I went over and shook hands with him and said, “Guten Abend” or “good evening.” And walked down. But you know, that was one of those encounters with one of the German civilians. Now there were occasionally some that were really kind of uptight about getting their pictures taken. They possibly might have been involved with the SS at some time during World War 2 and figured that I might have been with the Mossad, which was the Israeli Secret Police that you know, sometimes you know, wrapped people in blankets and flew them to Israel. But yeah, there were some Germans that were kind of fearful of that. I �remember one time coming back on the streetcar, I got a picture of a young girl. She’s, you know, standing by the front of the streetcar, she’s got a balloon—she has been to a friend’s birthday someplace and…But it was—so, I got some neat pictures of some civilians but I generally avoided taking pictures of civilians as much as possible because I knew some were kind of uptight about it. You know and…But we didn’t—didn’t seem to have any real hostility. And some of them were very appreciative of the American soldiers because some of them remembered the Berlin airlift. And you know, so they were real positive about some things like that too. (01:25:22) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Okay, yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Now, we can take you back to Fort Sill where you have gone in now, having been sent back from Germany. So, pick up the story there. Veteran: Yeah. Okay, anyway they said, “Well, you sure you don’t want to go to OCS?” I said, “No.” So, they sent me to a place called second enlistment student battery. That was on the main post. Second enlistment student battery was several stories high. It had balconies on the back that overlooked the parking lot. My job there was to pull CQ, or charge of quarters, every other night, which meant I was sort of like the babysitter for roughly 200 guys. You know, making sure they got tucked into bed, signing for guys the MPs brought back and you know, taking all the paperwork and putting it in the right file cabinet in the right drawer for the first sergeant to deal with in the morning. You know, when he got back in. So, that was my job. Now, that—that was only an every other night thing. The rest of my time was free. Well, I went ahead and went over to the pistol range and shot every day, usually twice. I spent a lot of time in the library, figuring I �am going to Vietnam—I better learn a whole bunch about that. So, I started reading everything I could on Vietnam. I started reading, sometimes, some confidential reports, that you know, since I had a secret clearance. They let me back in that room and let me read some of these reports of earlier battles that were, you know, still appropriately stamped. And anyway, the time came for me to go to Vietnam. And I got another couple weeks leave back home and reported to Oakland Army Terminal. Interviewer: Okay. You had mentioned before when you talked about Fort Sill and I asked about going off base and things like that, and you said, “We’ll have a story for that later on.” (01:27:26) Veteran: Okay. The thing is, I didn’t spend a lot of time off base. But there was one guy from second enlist—second enlisted student battery. It was also known as OCS casual. Now, these guys in OCS casual were guys that had been in OCS for anywhere between 3 weeks and about 4 months. The Army said, “Can’t make you into an officer.” And they turned them loose. Now, you have to remember, OCS beats you down to absolutely nothing. I mean, you know like that in the movie Lord of the Snake Shit type of thing. (01:28:08) Veteran: And anyway, these guys had never been built up to where they really had any selfconfidence or self-worth at all. There were guys that walked out in front of trucks on purpose to get killed. There was one guy that I heard the stuff on the loud speaker system: there was an incident going on up, you know. Talk about privacy. I mean they—in the Army you don’t have that. I mean, I could flip to different bays and listen in on what was going on all over second enlisted. And I heard the confusion up in one bay and I got on the PA and I said, “What’s going on?” They said, “Well, we got a guy from the OCS casuals that’s got a bayonet that he got from some place and he’s threatening to jump off the balcony, into the parking lot.” So, I grab one guy �that was playing pool in the room next door. I said, “Come on with me.” And we ran upstairs to where this room was. And lo and behold, the guy was out there on the balcony. And he was threatening to jump off. And he says, “I’ll kill anybody that tries to stop me.” I grabbed an Army blanket off one of the bunks and went at him like a bull fighter. Got his bayonet folded up in that and three of us jumped on him and held him until the MPs, the guys with the straight jacket, came to take him away. And they actually did. Now, this was not an American bayonet. It was one that he got at some surplus store in town. And that’s how he happened to come upon that…that bayonet that, you know, we caught him with upstairs threatening to jump off into the parking lot. And it was a few days after that that I got orders that I was going to go home and then report to Oakland. (01:30:17) Interviewer: Right. Now, were any of these OCS casuals people who maybe had flunked out of OCS intentionally? Or stalled? Veteran: Some of them may have, yep. Now, there was on guy that came out of OCS…He had only been there two days. The guy had a degree in geological engineering. He worked for some local oil company prior to getting drafted. And he saw what was going on with this breaking everybody down to nothing in OCS. And he said, “I spent too much money on my brain. They’re not going to screw with me.” So, he purposely started screwing with them. Purposely doing everything wrong. Like you know, when an upperclassman told him, you know, you don’t do anything until I tell you to. Well, this upperclassman gets caught by another upper classman and this guy went ahead and marched his troops right through the floor garden and smack into the side of the building. And you know, he kept doing things like that and after about three days, he basically told one of the officers, he said, “You know, you try screwing with my mind, I am going to screw with your program.” And they let him go. And he was somebody I could talk to �pretty well over the OCS casual thing. But there were some of those guys that were mentally gone. They should have—they should have had some real severe psychological counseling before they got turned loose. I can’t—you know, some of those guys, I can’t imagine they ever did anything productive in their lives afterwards. But… (01:32:06) Interviewer: Alright. So, a rather digression there. So, you’re going back now. So, you have gone—you are now headed to Vietnam. We have gotten you as far as Oakland with the— was that the depot you flew out of? Veteran: Yep. Yep. Now, at Oakland, one of the things that we did there: we went to donate blood for the city of San Francisco because once we started taking the anti-malarial meds, they couldn’t take our blood at the blood collection center. Well, it was my first real encounter with anti-war. They were throwing stuff at us. We were baby killers and all this other stuff and I am thinking hey, we are donating blood to your city and to people who need blood in your city. And we are the bad guys? You know, there’s something wrong with this whole picture. Well, my picture of California hasn’t much improved, you know, over the years. It’s like there’s an awful lot of people that maybe if the next earthquake dropped California off into the Pacific Ocean, we might be better off. You know? But because we encountered the same thing when we came back after Vietnam. And— Interviewer: Now, this time when you were at Oakland—so where did you encounter the protesters? Was it at the— (01:33:31) Veteran: That was right downtown San Francisco, at the blood collection center. Interviewer: Right. So, they knew you were going to be there? �Veteran: Oh, yeah. They knew—they knew that, you know, like the Army was brining guys in and that was—it was probably 3 or 4 busloads a day that the Army brought over there to donate blood. And you know, the Army buses rolled up and they were already angry with us. And throwing things at us and you know, the baby killer signs and the whole bit. And I am thinking, why? I mean we are doing—we are trying to do something for your community. And we are the bad guys? You know. But did you want to go from there to the flight over or where do you want to go next? Interviewer: I mean yeah, that’s—I think we’ve… Veteran: Okay. Interviewer: I guess how long did you spend at Oakland do you think? (01:34:32) Veteran: I was there probably about 5 days. Interviewer: Okay. And aside from doing—going and giving blood—how did you spend your time? Veteran: They had us walking around the post. You know, if you can pick it up. You know, please call kind of stuff. If you can’t pick it up, paint it white. You know, types of—types of things. And a lot of times we, you know, spent time reading or just sitting in our bunks. And then they had the thing where we had flight calls and they called my name off and we went out to the Air Force terminal. And we slept in a big hangar in bunks. You know, they didn’t have any bedding or anything on them. We just laid there on the bunks. I didn’t sleep real well that night because I knew where I was going was—I knew I would probably go to a gun crew some place. I’d read about artillery firebases being attacked and the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong coming through the wire. And those types of thoughts were in mind so I just didn’t sleep real well. And I �got out and was standing in a kind of like a porch area outside the side of the hangar. And I am looking and there’s this tractor coming down the taxi way. And the tractor is pulling these wagons that are loaded with coffins. I am kind of…They are sneaking all of these dead Americans back in the middle of the night. Does anybody know that this is going on? And that there are this many Americans coming back every night? Because I had heard the tractors go by but had never paid much attention to it until I went out that one time at…Yeah. There were wagons full of coffins coming back from Vietnam. And so, you know I was thinking yeah, this is…this is going to be a pretty tough year. So… Interviewer: So, when is this now, chronologically? (01:36:49) Veteran: That would be the fall of’66. Oh, probably two weeks before Thanksgiving. We had had a—actually, combination Christmas and Thanksgiving at my parents’ house the week before I reported to Oakland because they wanted me to get a chance to see the relatives before I went. So, my mom had basically everybody over from, you know, for the relatives. We had a Thanksgiving dinner a couple weeks early. So, I finally got a call for a flight and so forth. And we stopped at Hawaii but I—you know, I can’t say I saw anything of Hawaii. Because we got off the airplane and walked around in this fenced enclosure and they wouldn’t let us go anywhere. We got a chance to stretch our legs but that was about it. Got back on the plane and then flew to the island of Guam where planes were taking off to bomb Vietnam already from there. We saw B-52s, we saw B-47s, some of them we could see bombs hanging from the bottoms. (01:38:10) Veteran: We knew they were probably not heading towards Vietnam empty. And anyway, they got us back on the plane and we were supposed to land at Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Vietnam, which is right near Saigon. And the pilot says, “We will have a slight delay before we land.” He said, “There’s a fire fight going on on one side of Tan Son Nhut and the artillery battery is on the �other.” And he says, “I don’t like sharing airspace with artillery rounds so we are going to wait a while until they are done shooting.” And I am looking down at the Saigon River and the mud and the little boats in the river. I am thinking…awfully long year. You know? Well, we landed at— landed at Tan Son Nhut and they put us in some barracks that were right there at the Air Base for that first night. Now, these had mosquito nets on them but they didn’t have any mattresses on them. So, the mosquitoes come up from the bottom and anyway, we were still in our class B uniforms, khaki at the time. And then the next day, they out us on a bus and I noticed okay, the bus has got screens on the windows, heavy screens, and somebody asked the bus driver, “Why are the screens on them?” “Oh, that’s so the Viet Cong doesn’t throw a hand grenade into the bus.” Okay, I am not even to a base yet, I haven’t been issued a weapon yet, and they’re already talking about how the Viet Cong can do me in. and I thought not good. And I also saw a lot of refugees along the road. Now, some of these refugees were sleeping in the wax coated cardboard shipping boxes. That was their house, you know. A family was living in a…in a box a little smaller than the bathroom down the hall here. (01:40:27) Veteran: And sometimes there were people who had died that were just laying along the road that other people were walking around. And that was, you know, a different world than I had ever been exposed to before. From there we went to a place called Long Binh, which was where 90th Replacement Depot was located. Now, at 90th Replacement Depot, I got there just—I had been assigned to Vietnam but no particular unit yet. And 90th Replacement Depot was where they assigned me to a unit. I fully expected to go to the first infantry division because they had 155 self-propels and I was—I had, you know, all my records showed I was an expert gunner on the 155 sp. It only seemed like they would put me in the job that I was probably best trained at. And after a few days, they called my—now, 90th Replacement Depot I noticed they had the �wooden boxes that said poison on the outside. They were yellow boxes, probably ¾ of an inch thick wood on the side. And I found out that they were rat trap—rat poison—boxes. The rats would get the rat poison out of there. And I noticed there was some kind of scummy water around. And I also notice that there was some Vietnamese—they were using like a big hand drill to drill holes for bolts to build a barracks. You know, because some places they had barracks, some places the replacements were still in tents. And 90th Replacement continued getting bigger and bigger as things got on. (01:42:21) Veteran: Well, they eventually called my name and that I was supposed to go to the first cavalry division. And I went to the office and I said, “You sure that isn’t first infantry division?” I said, “First Cavalry Division doesn’t have any 155 self-propels.” And they said, “No, but we have looked at your scores and they want somebody with your capability. You’ll be trained up there.” And I thought oh jeez. I had seen, just before I went to Oakland, I had seen a program called Saga of Western Man on television. And they had a program on that called I Am a Soldier. And it dealt with the A company, First Battalion, 8th cavalry. And a company commander by the name of Ted Danielsen. And I watched those and I thought hmm, well I…at least, you know, if I am going to the first cavalry division, I could end up like a unit like that, which is a real straight unit. I mean, it’s not what I have been trained for but that’s a real straight unit. And I kind of filed that, you know, in the back of my mind. And also, during that time period, I read a 1965 National Geographic article on the use of special forces in Vietnam. And they had quite a bit about a Major Vernon Gillespie who—well actually, at that time he was a captain. (01:44:12) Veteran: But this Vernon Gillespie was quite influential in ending the 1964 Montagnard Revolt. They had a lot of pictures of him in National Geographic. He had been photographed in several other places. Well, I didn’t know that this Ted Danielsen thing and Vernon Gillespie were people �I was going to cross paths with later on. And along with some of the other guys it showed with Ted Danielsen from his A company, the 1st of the 8th. But again, you know, this was kind of at the back of my mind. And I thought well, you know, it might not be a bad assignment anyway. So, they put me on a C-130 and flew my up to An Khê, which was the headquarters of the 1st Cavalry Division at that time. Now, 1st Cavalry Division had gone over there in 1965. They had been there a year already when I got there. The commander of the first cavalry division when they went over was Harry W. Kinnard. Harry W. Kinnard was well known in some of my former reading, particularly about the Battle of the Bulge. Harry W. Kinnard was the operations officer for McAuliffe of the 101st Airborne Division. So, I was familiar with the name Harry W. Kinnard and so forth. And there also, during that first year, they had some rather unusual battalion commanders that went over there. One was a guy by the name of John Stockton. John Stockton later on wrote a book called A Cavalryman’s Life. Actually, his wife finished it up after he died at McGill University Hospital in Toronto, Canada. And anyway, John Stockton had been a young lieutenant during World War 2. He had been involved in, you know, the final few months before Germany fell and he mentions a number of incidents in his book, The Cavalryman’s Trade, about you know, his time in that. (01:46:51) Veteran: But he commanded the 1st of the 9th. Now, Stockton was a rather unusual personality. While they were at Fort Benning, Georgia, he went ahead and bought a mule and decided the mule was going to be their mascot for the 1st of the 9th. And it was going to go to Vietnam with them. Well, it was put on the boat. The Navy threatened to stamp it property—brand it, property of the United States Navy. So, he had a guard put on it. And they went to Vietnam like that. Stockton was not too aware of how they were going to land in Vietnam. He had heard they’d make a beach landing. And so, he went to the captain and asked to see, you know, their landing �nets. He wanted to ahead and inspect everything. Captain had not even been informed where he was going at the time. He’s getting this story about landing nets and people going over the side of his boat in landing nets. And a lot of confusion here. Well, eventually they get to Vietnam and it turns out that there are civilians as well as officers greeting them as the boats pull into Vietnam, a place called Qui Nhon along the central coastline. (01:48:23) Veteran: It had been used as a base by the Japanese during World War 2. And you know, it had a nice harbor and stuff. Well, they unloaded there. John Stockton’s mule was taken off but he gets this letter from Kinnard, or notice from Kinnard, the mule is not to set foot on the ramp of one of the helicopters. Kinnard wants this mule to basically stay in Qui Nhon and doesn’t go to base camp at An Khê. Well, general—a brigadier general knows—points up, taps Kinnard on the shoulder. And here is this mule—it’s in a sling underneath the helicopter. And going by. Of course, Kinnard was kind of irked at the situation. Stockton got to Vietnam. The first raid that they had when they got to Qui Nhon, Stockton has got his mule out. Stockton is wearing his black cavalry hat and a saber and leading this mule, it’s got a pack on the back with two 12 load batteries powering this rotating beacon that’s supposed to be on the back of a helicopter. Kinnard is not at all pleased with, you know, Stockton’s behavior on all this stuff. And Stockton was one of the two guys that if you saw the movie Apocalypse Now, the crazy colonel there played by Robert Duvall? Well, Stockton was one of the two guys they actually used for the model for that character. The other one was James [Jack] Smith who was also later on brigade commander. But he was—General Smith had a photographic memory. But Smith used to go down in his helicopter and shoot up at snipers in the trees. You know, he was that—that type of person. (01:50:37) �Veteran: They also sometimes referred to him as Sniper Smith because when he was battalion commander and then he was in the command helicopter, which was a Huey, he carried an M1 Garand. And if there was Viet Cong running down there all alone, he had the helicopter get to a position and you know, hold it as still as he could and he’d plink the guy with his M1 Garand out of the helicopter. So, some of the guys referred to him as Sniper Smith. Other ones referred to him as Crazy James. But he was a good, straight officer. Now, Stockton, in—you see in the movie We Were Soldiers actually, that was a couple later battles. There were a few battles that actually took place before that. One was called the Mure River, the Tay River, Hospital Complex, and LZ Mary. All four of those were not as big as the ones that showed in the movie, We Were Soldiers. But they were still some fairly significant battles. Stockton played a part in the one at LZ Mary because it was his battalion from—that had the company the 1st and the 9th, that attacked what they thought was a North Vietnamese platoon. It turned out to be the lead element of the North Vietnamese battalion, which probably came chasing after Stockton’s platoon which assembled with the rest of the guys from the company on a small hilltop that got the name LZ Mary. (01:52:26) Veteran: And Stockton went ahead and decided that he was going to reinforce LZ Mary at night, which had never been done by helicopter before. And on the middle of the battle, reinforcing the things at night. But he went ahead and made plans for this. The unit that was split, the reaction force was A Company 1st of the 8th, which is the one commanded by this Ted Danielsen. And they went in by helicopter at night since the landing lights or the normal navigation lights made the helicopters too much of a target, they had infantrymen put the angle head flashlights down on the deck so that they could only be seen by helicopters at the same altitude. And they managed to go in without tangling blades together and dropping off A company 1st of the 8th. One of them �was a guy by the name of John Handlin who I met later on again. But he was shot in the spine and paralyzed. His platoon sergeant was a guy by the name of Ken Revere who took over the platoon. And they managed to hold the thing during the night. Some other guys were like Earl Waters and so forth that there were guys at that time that I got to know later on real well that were in on that. And Earl Waters—if you have ever seen the documentary Shadow of the Blade, about this helicopter that was fixed up and they went and visited Vietnam vets before it went to the Smithsonian in Washington D.C. But it’s last stop on the flight was Agent Fire, New Mexico where they have that chapel that is now actually a state historical park, run by the state of New Mexico. (01:54:40) Veteran: But anyway, the—these guys went ahead and fought the battle and the North Vietnamese backed off because they realized once daylight came, there were going to be lots of helicopters coming in, lots of air and rocket artillery. So, they backed away from this thing. Now, Ted Danielsen said until I wrote the chapter on the 1st of the 8th cavalry for the book 50th Anniversary of Airborne which was put out by Turner Publications, I wrote—Ken Myrtle who was the battalion commander, asked me to write the chapter on 1st of the 8th, which I did. And up until that point, he had refused—Danielsen had referred to the LZ as LZ Spiderweb because of all the tracers going across it at night. He didn’t know it really had another name for the LZ. And he you know, he and I got to be pretty good friends later on. But there were those battles that went on. Now earlier, the hospital flight complex—there was a guy by the name Bill Mosey who was a company commander of Charlie company that actually captured a North Vietnamese weapon that Colonel Myrtle wanted. And after capturing the guy, you know, he sent the weapon back along with the—along with the wounded North Vietnamese. (01:56:15) �Veteran: And Myrtle called him back on the radio and said, “You know, I didn’t know you were going to send the guy that was attached to that rifle back too.” And anyway, you know that became kind of a standard joke. Ken Myrtle was actually offered the job as head of what they called S3 Air and Jet, sort of in charge of the helicopters for air assaults for the 1st cavalry division. Kinnard had offered him that position. Myrtle decided he wanted to command one of the airborne battalions instead. Now, 1st brigade was airborne. I was 1st of the 8th, 2nd of the 8th. And 1st of the 12th plus the 2nd of the 19th artillery. So, those units were airborne when I went over there. And Ken Myrtle was in charge of one of those infantry battalions and he was the one that asked me to do some of this writing. And of course, later on, he put me in a job as the publicity officer for the Charming Mustangs, which was a—the guys that served in Vietnam together, we started with 23, we got about 600 guys contacted right now. But anyway, the Sergeant Major McAuliffe also had a real good choice of NCOs that he picked so we had some real good NCOs over there. Now, one of the other first battalion commanders was a guy from 1st of the 7th, which was Harold G. Moore who was co-author of the book We Were Soldiers Once and Young. Now, I think that is probably one of the best books on the early time in Vietnam. (01:58:17) Veteran: It captures the mood of the American people: the idea that, you know, we thought we could defeat any foe, defend any friend as Kennedy had said. You know, we firmly believed in that and a lot of guys enlisted under that concept. And Moore’s book does a good job of explaining that. And also, it does an excellent—now, I mentioned these earlier battles. Those took place in October and the first part of November. The 10th of November, the 3rd brigade took over. And 3rd brigade was the unit that Hal Moore was with—1st of 7th, 2nd of 7th. And 1st of the 5th. And that made up 2nd brigade—or 3rd brigade. And Hal Moore was commander of one of �those battalions. McDade was commander of 2nd of the 7th. Now the book—I am not going to get too much into the book but it’s very accurately done. The movie is very accurately done except for the last 10 minutes. It shows Elmore going out and chasing the North Vietnamese out of their headquarters and took the Chu Pong Massif. They were, number one, Hal Moore fought for two and a half days. His troops were beat. He went out far enough to account for all of his dead and wounded and pulled them back in. Now, when McDade lost so many guys, a number of people say that McDade had a nervous breakdown during the battle and basically lost control over everything. Hal Moore doesn’t say that in his book but a lot of the other people who were there say that. (02:00:06) Veteran: Now, Hal Moore probably didn’t say it because he was a fellow West Point graduate. But, you know, he didn’t want to put him down. But it was actually Elmore that went out and accounted for the 3 missing guys that, you know, McDade had left behind after that battle in which they’d lost 155. Hal Moore lost 79 during his battle plus one Air Force officer who was flying an A-1 Skyraider that went down. And..but you know in the movie, Hal Moore talks about I will leave no one behind. He, you know, that part is played by Mel Gibson and I think Mel Gibson does a pretty good job of portraying war up until that last 10 minutes. (02:01:02) Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, and… Veteran: Did you want to stop there? Or did you— Interviewer: Well, I mean you are kind of talking a lot about people. Now, which of these different characters were still with the division when you got there? Veteran: Okay. There were guys from Hal Moore’s unit that had come back for a 2nd tour, some of them that were still there. So, I had a chance to interview some of them. Now, when I first got �to 2nd 19th artillery, I got there—by the time I got there, it was getting dark. There was a light on the sign that said “2nd 19th artillery on the way, airborne.” I thought hey, I originally wanted to go to an airborne unit. I am going to an airborne unit now. And I was introduced to them and one of the first things that they did was—I had a secret clearance, so they assigned me as a courier to fly in a helicopter over Pleiku, where I dropped off some secret documents there. Flying over Pleiku was an interesting experience because we flew across what’s called the Mang Yang Pass. Mang Yang Pass is the pass between those two towns. It’s where Group Mobile 100 was pretty much wiped out during the Vietnam War with the French. And you see that at the beginning of the movie We Were Soldiers. (02:02:29) Interviewer: Yeah. But that’s a case where they didn’t do a very good job. It looked nothing like that. Veteran: Yeah. And as I flew over it, I noticed that it looked like a Chinese checker board; there were all kinds of dents on the ground in nice, neat order and nice, neat pattern. And I asked the pilot, I said, “Why does the ground look like that? They are too close together to be foxholes.” And he says, “Well, that’s where all the Frenchmen are buried.” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “Well, the Viet Minh, after they won the battle, they’d go and put two of these Frenchmen in each hole in standing position and they’d use a—like a large post hole digger to dig a hole and they were all facing back towards France. And the saying was that France was where they should have stayed. They should have never come over there.” So, as the bodies decayed, these left little depressions that looked like a Chinese checkerboard all across this hillside. And so, that was kind of a different introduction to Vietnam and the country we were in. Interviewer: Okay. (02:03:40) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SheathelmG2270V1 Title A name given to the resource Sheathelm, Glenn (1 of 3, Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-08 Description An account of the resource Glenn Sheathelm was born in Muskegon, Michigan, in 1946. Enlisting in the Army in 1965, he joins the Army Artillery and undergoes Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and AIT at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before being deployed to Nuremberg, Germany. He is then redeployed to Vietnam where he served with the Fire Direction Control and S2 Military Intelligence sections of the First Cavalry Division until after the Tet Offensive in January of 1968. He sees combat while on patrol, during rescue missions, during Air Assaults, and during the Second Battle of Tam Quan when he receives several minor wounds and is sent to the rear for treatment in the final days of his deployment. He then returns to the United States in February of 1968 where he attends the Western Michigan and Grand Valley State Universities for masters' degrees in library sciences, literary media, and history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheathelm, Glenn H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3b57d865e327ed5ddce09ca37d47449.mp4 70e05d055300e3f57e295d399d63eec2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b38252c413adf56faff109a25c3b223.pdf 6e1d4cef5acbc45b503f9bea765fd390 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Glenn Sheathelm Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: Alright, this is part 3 [hour 3—this is the second interview session] of our interview with Glenn Sheathelm. Glenn, okay: we had gotten you in your story to late 1966. You had made it as far as Vietnam, you were assigned to the First Cavalry division at An Khê, you had already gone up I guess as a courier, fly up to Pleiku. And now— Veteran: That was actually across to Pleiku. That would be west on highway 19, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And it wasn’t really much north, it was mostly west. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And…which was where they, you know, they staged out of for the whole Ia Drang campaign and so forth. Okay and on the way back from Pleiku, we had a little bit of excitement. But it wasn’t any major thing and I got back and they said, “You haven’t been to the welcome camp yet.” And I said, “Welcome camp?” And they said, “Yes, First Cav’s training school or training academy or something like that.” And they said, “We’ll pick you up tomorrow with the deuce and a half.” And I said, “Well, what do I have to take?” They said, “Well, due to the fact that part of this is to get an infantry run camp acclimated but also to get anybody that was working closely with the infantry acclimated to life of infantrymen so you can understand it.” So, �they said, “You’ll be gone five days. You just take your normal field gear and your M-16.” I said, “Well, I haven’t shot the M-16 yet.” And they said, “Yeah, no problem. You’ll go ahead and zero it and get a chance to shoot it at this welcome camp.” So, I jumped onto the deuce and a half and we got to where the welcome camp was and they had some classrooms there that were kind of sandbagged outlines. And they had general purpose tents over the top. They had generators outside some of them that kind of clattered away. And they a piece of fairly new equipment at that time which was an overhead projector. Now, any teacher in the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s wouldn’t have been able to survive, I don’t think, without an overhead projector. They had those there and they had oversized slides and as we got started in the camp, I noticed that there were a couple names that popped up, one being familiar. (00:02:38) Veteran: One of them being Captain Ted Danielsen, who was the guy I had seen in this television program prior to going there. And the other one was a guy by the name of Roy Martin. Both of them were infantry captains. And I thought hey, that’s kind of cool, you know? I thought Danielsen’s company was real well run and he’s—and he and Roy Martin apparently had some input in putting this whole welcome camp program together. And they had been infantry officers and they’d served combat time. So anyway, I was pretty receptive to that and one of the things they had was…One of the instructors came in and proceeded to give us a very gruesome lecture about all the various types of venereal diseases that were around Vietnam. And I think probably everybody in Vietnam at every welcome camp probably got those. And they also happened to mention that if you signed out, you know, at a base camp there were boxes of condoms there. You were supposed to take a couple with you when you signed out that you were going off post anywhere. So, that was—that was part of the classroom education. They also showed us pictures of various types of booby traps and the wounds from various types of booby traps. We got some �more introduction to first aid, dealing with gunshot wounds. We practiced bandaging each other up, throwing different types of splints on. And it was probably about the third day, they took us out to the range with our M-16s and any other weapons we were assigned. Well, I at the time was just assigned the M-16 and of course .45 that I would just carry when I was a courier. (00:04:40) Veteran: And I shot the .45 and didn’t do very well. I never mastered the .45 during the time I was in the service. The M-16 was a little different. They had some wooden, or dark black squares, about like that that had a notch out of the bottom. And those were set out at 25-yards, which they called their thousand-inch range. And we were supposed to go ahead and line up different sights that came up to the bottom of that little cut out, hallowed out square and go ahead and fire three shots and see where they went and we would make the sight adjustment until we had in this area the size of a quarter that had a circle around it and was right below. Well, I did that and I was kind of enjoying shooting the M-16. Didn’t kick bad, seemed to be pretty accurate. And I’d heard some strange stories about it that yeah, it was so deadly because the bullets came out of the barrel flipping end over end, which I immediately knew was just a jungle story. Had absolutely nothing to do with reality because I knew firearms pretty well prior to going over there and no, that would not work if it actually flipped the bullet end over end. It would be terribly inaccurate and I noticed they all made nice clean bullet holes, not only in my target, but every other one that I looked at up and down the line. Well, I kept shooting two that I knew were going to be in. And I would shoot one a little bit off to the side and there was a sergeant there by the name of Carlo. And he says, “Okay, you go ahead and get off the range. They’re not all three in but,” he says, “you’ve done this five times in a row now where you have managed to pull it off. You just want to burn ammo.” (00:06:34) �Veteran: And I said, “Okay.” And he said that—I, you know, heard his name was Carlo and I said, “You have a brother that served in Germany?” And he said, “Yes.” And I said, “Did he get some burns while he was in Germany?” “Yeah.” Well, this was the same guy that dumped the aviation gas, you know, it was his brother that dumped the aviation gas in Germany and that caused the fire in our tent there. And he was, you know, glad I knew his brother but not real pleased that I knew the situation about that. And anyway, we finished sighting in the rifles and he didn’t let me play around a whole lot more that afternoon with the AR-15—or, M-16, he decided that I had it pretty well zeroed. Now, the M-16 was—the First Cav was the first unit to actually go to Vietnam and have that as the issued weapon. You know, there were some special forces troops that had them earlier but a regular Army unit? The First Cav was the first one that went over with it. And it was kind of nice because it only weighed about 7 pounds. That was 2 ½ pounds lighter than the M-14 and the ammunition was only a little over half the weight of what the M-14 ammo, which fired a 762 round, which is also known as the 308 Winchester in American terms. But it had a plastic stock on it, it had a plastic handguard and gas tube that came up underneath the front sight and one underneath that stock and went into a gas impingement system that went down to three little…Well, I guess cylinder rings that sealed it and then the thing worked. (00:08:42) Veteran: Now, it sounded kind of strange because when it fired, both the bolt and bolt carrier came back as one piece and went whipping by your ear where there’s a spring inside of the stock. So, every time you fired it, if there weren’t a lot of other people firing where you had, you know, disturbances from noise, it sounded like a kid just jumped by your ear on a pogo stick. So, you know, you would hear that spring go back and forth. And so, it was a different type of rifle. I liked it. We had at that time—we were only getting the ammo that was made by Remington �Arms and it used the original powder that gun was tested with. So, we didn’t—First Cav didn’t have a real problem with those to begin with. Now later on, they had a different powder thing that caused some calcite build up and they got a little bit less reliable. And you had to clean them pretty carefully because around helicopters, there’s all kinds of dust and crap that was getting blown into them. Well, after the—after the rifle range— (00:10:00) Interviewer: Before you go on with that, just with the M-16: the rap on the M-16 on the main one that I have run across and people have told me about was that they tended to jam a lot and particularly, if you had a full magazine of 20 rounds in it, the standard thing that a lot of them were doing, say by 1969-70— Veteran: Was putting .18 rounds in it and you know, with some of the magazines that seemed to be true. We had Colt magazines. They had some made by companies that made metal toys and you know other things like…there was even the joke that the M-16 was made by Mattel. I saw M-16s made by hydramatic division of General Motors but I never saw anything made by Mattel, in spite of all the jokes. And again, most of them were made by Colt. And anyway, after getting familiar with the M-16, they went ahead and took us out to an area where they had a training center that had a tower in it. And at this tower, there were helicopter skids attached probably 40 feet off the ground. And we would climb up a ladder, get on the top of this tower and they would show us how to hook on to the rope with a thing called a carabiner. Now, you just didn’t hold on to the rope, you put on what they called a Swiss seat which was made of larger diameter but a little bit softer rope. And they issued us one of those and that was something that most of us carried through Vietnam. We’d have them hooked on to our web gear. And now, this Swiss seat—it’d start with a loop around your waist and it would cross in the center and then it would drop between your legs, come up over around your buttocks, loop over �the rope again and then go around and tie off. It also got the nickname the Nutcracker but you know, the real thing was the Swiss seat. (00:12:07) Veteran: And you would tie that on while you were squatting down so there wasn’t any slack because if you didn’t have slack in there, there was less chance of the sudden jolt and some discomfort of this Swiss seat. So anyway, they taught us how to get into the, you know, get those on and we would stand on the top of the tower, hook our carabiner to that where it had a loop over the top. And then we would step onto the skid. Now, when you stepped onto the skid, they would have you lean back and tell you that when you first jumped to go ahead and let out 6 feet of rope. Now, there was a reason why you didn’t let out 2 or 3 feet of rope because if you let out 2 or 3 feet of rope, you were going to come right back into the skid with your forehead just about at the base of your helmet. So, you wanted to make sure that you let out enough rope so you’d actually swing underneath this platform a little bit. And when we actually did it out of the helicopters, we would actually swing underneath the helicopter for the first swing then let go, you know, 4 or 5 times and we’d be down to the ground. Now, there was one video of the First Cav where it shows the helicopter having a problem and coming down very quickly, right after the guy hit the ground with his—with his seat. And you could see this soldier looking very disgustedly at the helicopter and that whole military video. But anyway, we did that several times, just with our web gear on first and then with our packs on because your balance was a little different—you had to hold the rope on the front a little bit different so you didn’t tip over. Now, the first two times, they had a safety guide down at the bottom so if you panicked and let go of the rope, he was going to—you know, there were actually two ropes going through it, he was going to pull one, the thing would jam up on the carabiner. You may be hanging upside down but you were not coming all the way to the ground until he released pressure on that rope �so that you would slide down. So, they had some safety procedures involved in the training with this. The other thing that we did was learn how to survive around helicopters. (00:14:33) Veteran: You know, watching tail rotor blades, approaching from the side not the front where the pilot or copilot can see you all the time, and you know, not all of a sudden little pitch, you lean forward and take your head off or do a pedal turn where you were back there by the tail rotors some place and you know, all of a sudden you’re going to walk into this big fan. Which did occasionally happen in the First Cav, you know you…I think incidents like that generally happened in the Army because you know, you get a bunch of 19 year old kids doing things they have never done before and you’ve got all these dangerous machines around. There was a good friend of mine that never made it to Vietnam because he was moving onto a train car and a bulldozer kind of goofed and he caught a bulldozer blade at the knee. And you know, okay, medical discharge and he’s out. And so, those types of things happened. There were guys that got hands caught in a breech box in Germany. Guys that ran over—you know, got their feet run over by a tank or you know. Things like that happened when you’re around that much equipment. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you are talking about going out off of this platform. A lot of people talk about training. They talk about repelling and learning to do that. (00:16:01) Veteran: Yeah, and that’s what we did. We repelled down. Interviewer: Okay. But then they say that they never actually did that in the field. Did you actually use— Veteran: We actually repelled in twice during my time that I was there. It wasn’t something that we did all the time. But another thing that we trained for was how to get into a CH-47—it’s the �big twin rotor helicopter—if they couldn’t land. now, there—they did have a hoist on them where they could bring you up by hoist into a CH-47 but you didn’t want to do that because if that happened, you were probably going up because you were wounded. And you know, where they would hoist you up on a Stokes Ladder. But the normal way of getting up into those was to climb a ladder somewhat like the Navy used to use getting troops off ships and stuff. Well, with the ship, you’ve got something that ladder hangs up against. Climbing up into a Chinook [CH47] on a ladder that is swinging like this, especially if you were the last person on the ladder because there was nobody hanging on, helping to hold that thing still. And you know, you are kind of falling, trying to grab rungs of the ladder and trying to get your feet on the rugs of the ladder which is constantly moving. That scared me a whole lot worse than repelling out of helicopters, you know. It was just one super frightening experience for me. and I hoped I was never going to have to do one of those in combat and fortunately I did not. Now, they had another thing where they showed us how we might possibly get picked up and it was called the McGuire rig. Now, that was one that not only had the seat down here but it had a shoulder harness attached to it. They were used primarily to get recon teams out. And you know you had carabiners on both sides and this McGuire rig actually hooked onto the carabiners and it would fly you out hanging underneath this helicopter, bouncing through branches until they got to a safe area where they could land on and then you climbed on it normally. (00:18:18) Veteran: Now, this is basically being swung around like a sinker on the end of a fish line. Not really a fun situation. But it didn’t scare me near as much as climbing up the ladder. Now, I didn’t have to use the McGuire rig other than one time in Vietnam. But anyway, that McGuire rig was there and I thought it was in a way kind of cool. It also gave me a sense of understanding special forces and recon teams—what they needed and, you know, so forth. Then they took us �out on a couple patrols where we actually first time went through a village that was all in our safe area. But it had dummy booby traps in it so we could see what it was actually like going through that type of situation. And then we went out and actually did it for real. We went probably a mile and a half outside of the perimeter and did a patrol out there. Pretty much like they normally did around base camp. You know, infantry platoons would be sent out. They would primarily encounter mortar ambushes. You know, the idea was to catch the bad guys setting up the mortar out there to fire mortar rounds at the base camp at An Khê. The targets were that they took were occasionally in troop areas but more frequently it was a big area which they called the golf course. And it wasn’t really a golf course but Harry W. Kinnard says, “You know, that area is where the helicopters are going to come in. We are not going to chew it up with bulldozers. You are going to go out there with shovels and machetes and,” he said, “when you get done, it’s going to look like a golf course because don’t want all kinds of debris messing up our helicopters.” Now, the helicopter—like I said, the First Cavalry Division had more helicopters than anybody else in Vietnam and more than the whole Marine Corps did. (00:20:27) Veteran: So, helicopters were going to be an important part of our life. Well, I got through this— this training thing and got back to the battery area and there was a guy by the name of Henry Stiller who definitely talked like he was from Tennessee but he may not have been. You know, might have been from the Carolinas but anyway he said, “Well, you know, you got your clothes all dirty,” because during that 5-day thing, they didn’t let us take a shower, they didn’t let us change clothes. It’s okay, we want you to understand these infantrymen that you’re going to be supporting, you know. It’s—the only advantage was the first three days we got to sleep on cots in a tent but the last two days, we slept on the ground. You know, like infantrymen would. And the one night we did 9 am bush practice, we actually dug in. So, you know, we said, “Well, we �will go to the laundry in An Khê where you know, the women would wash them in a stream and stuff. And anyway, Stiller decided he wanted to enjoy the features of a young lady that lived in this laundromat area. And he said, “Well, just kind of watch the jeep.” So, I am sitting there out in the jeep with my M-16, wondering where the first grenade is coming from. I’m kind of new to the country and a little bit jumpy at this time. So, I mean, my head is on a swivel continuously this whole time. Now, the jeep actually was not a problem as far as some kid dropping a grenade down the gas spout because number one, it was too narrow and it had the bend in it where it was going to hang up before it went down in there. But the story was with the deuce and a half trucks, that somebody would take a grenade with a rubber band wrapped around it after the pin had been pulled, drop it in there and as the grenade jostled around and the rubber band got weaker because the attack of the fuels on it, the grenade would go off and you know, this truck would go up in a ball of flame. (00:22:46) Veteran: I don’t know how often that happened but you know I had always heard the stories about it and I had some concerns about that type of thing. Well, I also had my First Cav patches with me and they sewed those on at this laundry thing because there was a seamstress right there so you know, I had my patches and all of a sudden I looked not like a new guy but I looked like somebody that actually belonged with the First Cav after that. And Henry told me, “You know, you got to get a flappy hat too.” And I said, “We are not allowed to wear floppy hats.” And he said, “Well, when you get out in the field, you’ll be able to get away with them sometimes.” And I thought okay. So, I went ahead and got one of the floppy hats in town at one of the stores that sold them. And we referred to them as “go to hell hats” because when the majors and generals put their helicopters to bed for the night, that was sort of a comment about generals and spit and polish officers that might be around, you know, that the guys would wear them some at night. �And we wore those on colored teams later on when I got out with the foreign observer team. But didn’t wear that much, you know, when I was with the 2nd and 19th but I did have it. (00:24:15) Veteran: Well, my—we got back in and about two days after that, we got a warning order that we were going to be moved on highway 19 across the An Khê Pass. That’s the one between An Khê and the coastal town of Pleiku. And—or, the coastal town of Qui Nhơn, which was on the South China Sea. And then there would be helicopters to pick us up. Well, I got in the back of this deuce and a half truck and there was a guy by the name of Rufus Bedford. He was from the Detroit area. And he had a hatchet with him, which he set on the top of this stuff we had covered with tarp in the back of the truck. And I made a comment to one of the other guys about the hatchet. And I said, “Is that to help clear the underbrush when we get down?” He says, “No. Not last time we were out but two times ago, there was a Viet Cong that came up the side of the truck and was going to throw a satchel charge into the truck.” And he says, “Rufus took him down with a hatchet.” I am thinking oh, okay. This supposedly, you know, semi-rear job working with artillery FDC may not be as quiet as I thought it was going to be. And so anyway, I kind of thought well, I will keep that in mind about Rufus Bedford being pretty good with a hatchet and you know, being kind of an aggressive guy in the field should I ever want to know who to kind of follow along behind. So, anyway, they took us to this area over the main—over the An Khê Pass. (00:26:09) Veteran: Now, the An Khê Pass by this time had a fuel line that went up alongside the road. And everyone once in a while, they’d have guard posts there that had, you know, like big things where they’d turn the fuel off because the Viet Cong would occasionally find one of these places that they didn’t think was guarded adequately, put some explosives on it and then blow the fuel line. Now, that brought helicopter fuel from Qui Nhơn, where the big, big boats came in, tankers. �They had tank farms and everything there up to An Khê. Now, at An Khê we had fuel, not in big tanks but in things called blivets. They were big rubber things. Interviewer: Kind of like balloons. Veteran: Fuel ones were actually a little bit larger than this room. And they had those, you know, various places. They’d be filled with helicopter fuel and they had little gasoline pumps that would move them from there to the helicopters when they came in to land. So, you know, a good way to stop the First Cavalry division would be to stop the fuel supply. The Viet Cong knew that so there were these checkpoints where they’d close it off and you know, immediately there would be somebody that would be sent out. The engineering thing and get a—you know, pull a bulldozer down because they usually had bulldozers parked at most of these checkpoints so they could get a bulldozer and some engineers. The engineers wouldn’t necessarily stay at the checkpoint but there would be one flown out by helicopter to drive this bulldozer and you know, cover up the dirt holes and craters and so forth. And they’d go ahead and fix this pipeline and the First Cav would continue getting fuel. (00:28:05) Veteran: Well, we had seen those along the An Khê Pass and then we got to this area that looked like a sort of a truck pull over and stop thing and we pulled in there and there were Ch-47 helicopters that landed. Now, this was my first time going into, you know, what I figured could be a combat situation. I thought well, I am apparently not going on the first lift because I am climbing onto a Chinook helicopter. First lift would be Huey helicopters. And so anyway, I climbed in there and they drove a jeep with a combo trailer behind it. And they flew us to a place called Landing Zone Pony. Now, Landing Zone Pony from the town of Bong Son is southwest of there, not too far from a place called LZ Bird, which you know is going to be of significance a little bit later on. But anyway, they dropped us off at LZ Pony with these helicopters. And there �was barely enough room to run things like the combo jeeps around, you know. But we started hacking away at the underbrush and we dug holes and from the hole that I slept in to the jungle, it was about the distance you and I are apart. You know, those first couple weeks. So, we were pretty close to things back there. And we also set up our fire direction center. And the fire direction center was a matter of filling a whole bunch of sandbags and then a, you know, GP medium tent over the top. And you know, the plotting boards in there, the radio was in there, and we had two generators because when you are in a battalion fire direction center for an artillery unit like 2nd and 19th was, now artillery is supposed to move, shoot, communicate. And communicate was a big thing because artillery landing zones were kind of like forts in the far west. (00:30:18) Veteran: You know, where you had the fort with the cavalrymen at it and you had this big open area with nothing around it. Eventually, you’d come to another fort. Well, the idea was to try building these firebases to where one firebase could fire artillery to help support another one. And we could support LZ Bird. They could support both Bird and Pony from LZ Hammond with the 175-millimeter guns but we were out of range of the 8-inches from there. Now, the 8-inches and 155s could both support us from a little bit farther up, towards…Bong Son. But…and of course, Bird and Pony can each support each other. So, anyway we proceeded to go ahead and hack away at stuff with machetes and shovels and after about a week, they brought in a bulldozer in pieces. And the thing was assembled. And that started plowing the whole top of this little hill top that we were on. And, which was cool until monsoon season came a little bit later in December, because it turned it into a total sea of mud. I mean, this is boot-top deep mud because when your drive—well, at that time they also during the monsoon season, they brought in a 3rd of the 18th artillery. Now, the 2nd of 17th artillery, which was an old-fashioned 105 unit. But 3rd of �the 18th had 8-inch and 175 self-propelled guns. To even get those in there across the mucky rice paddies we had to go out with det cord and wrap it around palm trees and blow them in half and lay down a quarter of the road to even get these artillery pieces up to LZ Pony because they had to come across this muddy rice paddy. Interviewer: Okay. Now, were your own guns there at this point? Or were they still— (00:32:31) Veteran: 2nd of the 19th at that time did not have any artillery pieces on Pony. We did on LZ Bird, we did on a couple of the other nearby LZs, like B battery 2nd of the 19th was on LZ Bird. We had 2nd of 17th, which had the old-fashioned 105s on Pony. And these big 8-inches of 175s came in and also at the end of 1966, first brigade First Cav went off airborne status. They wanted to have a last hurrah so they laid on this big mission with C-130s flying over and big pallets of 8inch 175 ammo dropped by parachutes. And they said they wanted us to all make sure we were in our tents or our sleeping quarters in case one of the parachutes failed. I am thinking okay, this canvas tent is going to be a whole lot of protection from this thing that weighs about as much as a car that’s coming down with this parachute. You know, if it doesn’t land out there in the rice paddy, it lands on the LZ right where we are. Well, they dropped the stuff down. And we went out and picked it up by helicopter. Now, remember this is rainy season so the rotor blades on the Hueys did a lot of static building in the rain in, you know, the very dense atmosphere. (00:34:05) Veteran: We quick like learned that when you unhooked one of these parachutes and rolled it up and got ready to hook it on to a helicopter, that the helicopter would come down. You know, you would be looking at the hook probably about that much over your head and you would have this bunch of straps that went to this thing that you know was kind of an eye hook with a bolt through it—a big bolt through it. And you’d go up like this and sort of throw it onto that hook. Because if �you were still hanging on to that metal thing, it—the, you know, as it hit the helicopter, you were going to get a jolt that was going to throw you right off that pallet of ammunition back into the rice paddy with a very noticeable “hey stupid.” But so anyway, we hooked up the stuff and had it flown back in the 3rd of the 18th which was on LZ Pony. And some of the times, the Viet Cong got a little bit bored and we would get some sniper fire while we were out there but generally, you know, there was no real heavy fire that we got during that time period. (00:35:18) Interviewer: So, if your guns aren’t there, why are you on LZ Pony? Veteran: Because at headquarters 2nd of the 19th, we controlled where every gun and force brigade was going to shoot. So, in other words, we controlled what—where 2nd of the 19th shot, where 2nd of the 17th shot, where 3rd of the 18th shot, where 6th of the 16th, which is 155 unit, shot. And of course, any batteries attached to us or any of those other units. So, there were a whole bunch of people that were in an artillery fire mission would call in to us by radio and give the location—grid location—nature of target, and where the nearest friendlies were and we would go ahead and look on our chart, figure out which battery could most safely fire this particular mission, pick the unit and say, “Decent Speech 33, this is Tiger to India,” you know, which is the call sign I used working in intelligence and operations, “this is Tiger to India. Your grid is clear. Go to Fox 13,” which was code for radio channel they would flip to and then they would talk to 1st of the 30th. (00:36:50) Veteran: And we would also put a radio on 1st of the 30th’s fire control frequency because we would check their original data. In other words, they would figure out where, you know, from where they were and where the target was, they’d give the distance in number of meters, the elevation that they had to have on the guns, and we would check that with our slide roll and our �plotting board in headquarters 2nd of the 19th. And then would say, “The grid is clear. The grid is safe.” You know, and 1st of the 30th, they had permission to fire it. (00:37:28) Interviewer: Alright. So, you are doing fire direction control… Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But you had not trained? Back in the states? Veteran: Yeah, that was an the job training thing where they taught me how to use the plotting board and how to use the slide rule. I’ve got a 155 slide rule still sitting in my attic at home. But you know, it’s—and it’s one of those…Well, later on, there was a girl here in Muskegon. She was a 3rd grader at Marquette School. And she was going to do a project on how artillery uses mathematics. Her teacher was a Carol Vance, over at Marquette School. And Carol knew that I had been in artillery in Vietnam so she had this girl come over to Steel School and talk to me about whether I would be willing to help her do her project. Well, she really got into this. I mean, really, really got into this learning fire direction control. And we went ahead and actually made a plotting board. (00:38:47) Veteran: We made a deflection fan out of wood. Not a nice, you know, super cut one with aluminum and stuff but we made the thing out so that she could go ahead and figure distance, direction and look on a map. And we had Steele School, Marquette School, you know, with the difference in elevation. The whole thing plotted out on this map. And she wanted to learn how to use the slide roll so I taught her how to use the artillery slide roll. And she said, “Can we go shoot artillery?” And I said, “Excuse me but these bullets are real big.” And we went down to a place called Foxhole down in Holland that was run by a World War 2 vet. I showed her what artillery rounds looked like. And she said, “You can’t shoot those at your rifle range?” And I �said, “No.” And they said—and she said, “Well, do you know the Reserve units and the National Guard units, where do they shoot?” I said, “Up at Camp Griffin.” “Can we go to Camp Griffin?” “No, we are not going to Camp Griffin.” And I finally worked out a deal where we could go over near Lansing. They had a small field training area where they didn’t actually shoot but where they went through the motions. And there was a chief of firing battery there that was an old guy. And he thought it was the neatest thing he had ever done in his life was teach this little girl, who is standing on top of a couple ammo boxes, how to run the aiming circle and lay the battery. I mean you know, here is this little girl standing up there on these ammo boxes and calling commands to the guns on—to make sure they are all pointed the same way. (00:40:35) Veteran: Now, they didn’t actually load any rounds and tear up anybody’s farm outside of Lansing but you know, they went through the motions. And this girl really, really loved that experience. And I know the chief of smoke did too. He thought that was the coolest thing in the world. So, anyway, back to fire direction control and you know, kind of learning this as on the job training. And captain decided that, you know, I seemed to be pretty comfortable out in the woods, I had hunted and stuff, and he said, “You know, here’s some stuff to make some maps.” And he said, “We want information on where there are any foxholes and spider holes outside of LZ Pony.” And he said, “Go ahead and get three guys to go with you and go ahead and start running, you know, putting together maps on what the terrain outside of LZ Pony looks like.” Well, one of the guys I picked was Rufus Bedford. And one of the times when we were out doing that, we came across this skull. Rufus decided he wanted the skull. Well, I did some checking, made sure it wasn’t booby trapped. And we picked it up and carried it the rest of our patrol. And we got to going back in the perimeter and Rufus Bedford has got his elbow crooked like that and he’s got the skull underneath his elbow, and he’s petting the top of the skull like you �would a little dog or kitty cat or something like that. And of course, the guys on the perimeter, they see him coming in like that and they’re just “Oh, gross!” You know? (00:42:23) Veteran: And we got it back in and I said—you know, he said, “Well, here’s the skull.” And I said, “Rufus, I don’t want the skull.” And he said, “Well, you can put it on top of your radio on the talk.” And I said, “No, I get along pretty well with some of the officers right now. I am not going to put that skull on top of my radio in the technical operations center,” which is this tent surrounded by sandbags. And he said, “Well, nobody sees it real well by where I am.” And he says, “We ought to show it off.” And he says, “You’re—by the way, most of the guys walk along that side of the perimeter to go to the mess tent.” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “How about if we put it on the sandbags by your tent?” And I said, “Well, yeah. Well, okay.” So, I got it put there. About two days later, there’s a guy that walks by and he sees the skull there. And when he caught me at the tent, he said, “Could I by any chance have that skull?” And I said, “What in the world would you want that skull for?” And he sat down on the sandbags with me and pulls out this Dear John letter that he had received. And it’s getting—you know, we are starting into December. And he says, “I want to send it back to the girl that sent me this letter.” And I thought oh, well, that will get rid of the skull and probably get the point across quite clearly to this girl that, you know, this guy was very disappointed in getting the Dear John letter. So, I asked Rufus and Rufus says, “Sounds like a good idea.” So, this guy packed up the skull. We didn’t hear the screams all the way to Vietnam but they probably heard it for quite a while quite the distance around her house when she opened that thing up. (00:44:34) Veteran: And a little bit after that, there was a guy that walked into fire direction control and I looked up real quick and I thought that’s Vernon Gillespie. Now, he’s this guy that had been in special forces. I mentioned that they had had the article written about him in National �Geographic. And I looked and he had a Browning high power that I recognized on his hip. Now, this is not a standard issued weapon. Most other countries in the world used it but the United States did not. And I commented, “Hey, nice looking high power, sir.” And he says, “You recognize that?” I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “What do you know about it?” I said, “Well, Canadian government uses them, Belgian government uses it, most other NATO countries use it.” And he said, “Do you know how to field strip one?” “Oh yes, sir.” And he goes ahead and flaps his Browning high power down in front of me on the radio table and you know, I got a bank of radios in front of me. Go ahead and pull the thing apart and, you know, check to make sure the magazine safety works and then put it back together for him and he said, “Do you know much about foreign weapons?” And I said, “Yeah, I have studied them but,” I said, “I haven’t really had a chance to get to actually handle one of them.” But I said, “I spent a lot of times with Smith’s small arms.” Orel Smith was the curator of the firearms museum at West—at Smithsonian. And he said, “Do you know how to take an AK-47 apart?” And I said, “Yes sir.” And said, “How about an SAS?” “Yes sir.” And then he said, “Next time I come in,” he says, “I’ve got access to an AK-47.” Well anyway, we talked a little bit and he said, “You seem to know your way around pretty well for somebody that has been out of—been over here less than a month.” And I said, “Well I studied it pretty carefully before I came over.” And he decided that yeah, I probably ought to be in the S-2 section and forget this plotting board stuff. So— Interviewer: Okay, and then for the benefit of those who don’t know what S-2 is— (00:46:59) Veteran: Yeah. And you know I was going to be able to help him figure out some information in advance. So— Interviewer: Right. So, you go over to intelligence from fire direction? �Veteran: Yeah. And so that—which was the other half of this GP medium tent. Now, during monsoon season, we actually dug a trench through the middle of it because the water piled up too fast against the sandbags so we had to drain some right through the middle. And we actually built a bridge across which we christened and since Rufus and I were two from the same state, it got christened the Mackinac Bridge across this stream that on rainy days the monsoon had about that much water in it. And you know, just ran right through underneath the sandbags. And so anyway, I got, you know, Gillespie was at that point sort of entering a big part of my life as far as decisions that I made and where I got moved to. And he asked me about Landing Zone Bird and Landing Zone Pony. And I said, “Well, you know, that the Christmas truce—” he said, “What do you got for data on where the North Vietnamese are?” And I showed him on the map, you know, the locations where they had been spotted. (00:48:22) Veteran: And he said, “Who do you think is going to get hit?” And I said, “Probably Pony, sir.” And he said, “Okay, what is your reason for Pony?” I said—or not Pony, but Bird. And he said, “How come Bird?” And I said, “Well, you know we have only been here at Pony for a short period of time.” And I said that, “The North Vietnamese are usually pretty good about putting together sand tables and planning their attacks real careful with these three dimensional sand table types of things.” And I said, “They don’t know that much about LZ Pony yet.” And I said, “We’ve intercepted one of their recon teams on one of these things I had been out with Rufus Bedford and downed several of their North Vietnamese guys that, you know, they had—they had paper and they had already started a map at that point.” And I said, “You know, we may have interrupted them but,” I said, “I really don’t think they know much about Pony yet.” And he said, “Well, I am thinking the same thing because Bird has been there a couple 3 months. And you know, whereas we have only been here a few weeks.” So, he said he was going to explain that to �Lieutenant-Colonel Culp. And Lieutenant-Colonel Culp flew over to LZ Bird and told the company command—or battery commander—and the officers about this beehive round, which is the one that fires all these flechettes out of the 105-millimeter. (00:50:03) Interviewer: So, like a giant shotgun at face— Veteran: Yeah, like a giant shotgun except instead of shotgun pellets, there are nails about that long with fins on the back of them. And anyway, Colonel Culp explained about the flechettes and said that, “Okay, this is the way to warn everybody: you are going to fire beehive rounds and we want at least 6 beehive rounds in every one of the gun pits for the 105s.” So, that was all properly arranged, you know, Colonel Culp got everybody prepared and also had beehive rounds put to the 2nd of the 17th. Now, the thing is the 2nd of 17th was not familiar with beehive but they were, you know, told how to use one. Unfortunately, 2nd of the 17th was not really in a position where it could fire much support except for about one quarter of the LZ with beehive rounds. LZ Bird was a little bit better set up for using beehive rounds, even back into their own perimeter which turned out they did have to do. And anyway, as we are kind of looking at what is going to happen over the Christmas truce, day before there was another one of these recon teams of either Viet Cong or North Vietnamese that slid into a gulley just outside of LZ Pony, between where the brigade headquarters was and where, you know, we were with 2nd of the 19th. We had to be fairly close together because we actually used landlines to communicate. So, there was an area where they had a helipad and all the lines went down the helipad and the perimeter was there. There was this injun country area probably about 75 yards in between. Well, that’s where the bad guys got. And there was firing back and forth at each other between the guys near the helipad and the guys on our side of the perimeter. And even worse, the 3rd of the 18th had just come in and really didn’t know much about this area yet. (00:52:17) �Veteran: And they proceeded to cut loose with 50 caliber machine guns off the top of their armored personnel carriers. Well, I mentioned the antenna farm; we lost two antennas that night as they’re cranking across our own perimeter with 50 caliber. And they also destroyed one of our own helicopters in this little thing. And it turned out to really be nothing except a couple, you know, Viet Cong or North Vietnamese that got in between, fired a couple shots to see what sort of trouble they could stir up and then you know…There were yells to cease fire. And the next morning, I went out and walked the perimeter and was talking to different guys about what they actually saw. Well, except for the incident in this gulley, nobody else had seen any other action around the perimeter. One of the guys I talked to was a machine gunner. Had the name of Thomas Duggar. And some of his gun crew were in getting breakfast at the time so Duggar was the one I talked to. He said now he saw really nothing out in his area. And that evening, this is just a little bit before the truce started, Duggar and his machine gun squad were going out for an ambush and I took a picture of the three of them walking through the mud on LZ Pony, just as they were leaving the perimeter which there’s a copy of that print down at the infantry museum at Fort Benning. It also became the cover print for one of the vet centers annual reports here and it was also used as the cover of a book, Breaking Squelch by a guy by the name of Steve Saunders, which is an excellent book. He wrote that for his children, you know, who were asking the question what did you do in the war, daddy? (00:54:24) Veteran: And it is not loaded with profanities but it’s a very, very accurate picture of what life as an infantryman was at…And I purchased copies for a lot of the libraries around Muskegon. But the cover photograph on there is the one that I took and it show Tom Duggar leading his gun squad. The second guy in the middle was Steve Saunders. Now, Steve Saunders found out about that picture in 1990. He came to the 50th anniversary of airborne. Now, 2nd of the 8th was not near �as well organized as 1st of the 8th was because we’d started getting together in 1986. So, this was reunion number 5 for us. And he came over and says, “Well, I probably don’t know any of you guys because I was with 2nd of the 8th.” I said, “Well, I got a picture of some guys from Charlie company, 2nd of the 8th walking off of LZ Pony, back in December of ’66.” I said, “I don’t know who the guys are.” I said, “One of them…the last—first name was Tom, last name started with a D.” I said, “It was not Dare because I knew a Tom Dare.” And I said, “I can’t remember exactly what it was.” He said, “You got the picture?” I said, “Yeah.” I pulled open my briefcase that I had next to me because I was up at the registration table. And he looked at it and quickly grabbed ahold of chairs, the arms of a chair, and sat down. And he says, “That’s me.” And he points to the middle guy. And he says, “That’s Tom Duggar. He died two months later; was shot in the head.” And he said, “Could you have a copy of that print made?” Well, this happened to be an 8x10. So, I gave him the copy of the 8x10 and I said, “I’ve got a slide. I can make other pictures.” (00:56:22) Veteran: Well, from that point until he closed down his law office, the picture of his family and the picture of him in Vietnam, you know, in that mud, were the two pictures that he had on display at his law office. And he said those were the two most important things in my life, were my Vietnam tour and raising a family. And so anyway, you know that incident turned out to be a picture that is showed up various places. Well, anyway, the Christmas truce came along. We knew where some of the North Vietnamese were and they were close enough they could have attacked either Bird or Pony. But you know, the consensus with some of us was that it was going to be Bird and there were other people that thought it was going to be Pony because we didn’t have any wire out yet. And there was, you know, practically no field to fire for us yet. But �anyway, they hit LZ Pony. SLA Marshall wrote a pretty good book on it called Bird: The Christmastide Battle. Interviewer: Wait, you just said they hit Pony. Veteran: What? Interviewer: You just said they hit Pony. (00:57:45) Veteran: No, they hit Bird. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. They hit LZ Bird but they hit Bird the Christmastide Battle. And—but I was on Pony in, you know, roughly 5 kilometers away. And we fired a lot of support for that. One of the missions that I controlled was the 175 unit that was firing off of LZ Hammond and I could talk to them because we had the long antennas and I was talking to a guy that was on outpost from actually 1st of the 8th cav. And he could see where the mortars were firing on LZ Bird. And I thought well, 175s at that distance are not terribly accurate. I don’t want to use them on LZ Bird because I might hit somebody. But mortar rounds—mortar tubes—sounded like a good target. So, I—he couldn’t give me a grid location but I said, “Well, pull out your M2 compass.” (00:58:46) Veteran: And I said, “Put it under your poncho and charge it with the light and then go ahead and give me an azimuth and approximate distance.” So, he did. And I said, “Is there a hill on the right-hand side?” And he said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Is there another little ridge before you get to the big hill?” “Yeah.” “Okay, where are they in reference to the ridge?” And he says, “Well, they are near the left-hand end of the ridge.” I said, “Okay, good. I think I got it.” So, I went ahead �and started having them shoot 175 rounds. Well, Captain Webber, who was the S-2 officer, had taken off to try to put some mortar because by this time, the 2nd of the 19th artillery’s fire direction control for B battery had actually abandoned their thing and shot up the radios because the North Vietnamese were just outside the tent. And they’d retreated back to where the guns were. So, we really had no real radio communication with the guys inside. Well, Captain Webber took off in an old H-13 helicopter, had a pilot go out fly the thing. And he’s out there, you know, directing artillery fire and then of course the other fire is being directed direct fire by Lieutenant Piper and Captain Leonard Schlenker. Schlenker was B battery’s battery commander and Leonard Schlenker was one of his lieutenant officers. And they were the ones that were primarily running the artillery fire that was shooting at the North Vietnamese, you know, coming at them. Well anyway, Captain Webber made some passes. And he turned around and noticed that there were artillery rounds going off where he wasn’t expecting artillery rounds. Well, he called up on the radio and wanted to know why he saw these big long linear type explosions like 175s. (01:00:52) Veteran: And I said, “Well, I am running those off of LZ Hammond.” And he said to the pilot, you know, “Did you get your advisory on that?” “Well, I don’t know. It was kind of confusing when we took off.” So anyway, Captain Webber is out there circling in this darkness and you know, coming back for another pass on LZ Bird, not realizing this safe area of darkness was also the same one these 175 rounds are going through. So, he changed where his circle pattern was after that. And he continued calling in fire. They then later on sent 1st of the 9th out there to help the guys on LZ Bird. They fired beehive rounds at the North Vietnamese that were trying to turn some of the guns around, like all those Charlie 6 of the, 16th. Guns had been captured. There was a guy from Hudsonville by the name of Gary Peasley who was killed at LZ Bird. He was �awarded a Silver Star. He stood—well, he actually stayed on top of one of the bunkers with his M-60 machine gun and kept pouring fire into these hordes of North Vietnamese. (01:02:16) Interviewer: Okay. Here we are on part 4 of Glenn Sheathelm’s interview. We had been talking about the Christmas fight at LZ Bird and gotten to the point where a soldier from Hudsonville, Michigan had been killed. And so, why don’t you kind of wind up that and move us on from there? Veteran: Okay. Anyway, 1st of the 12th did have some heavy fights and stuff in there. And some of it was—well, when they got to the 6th of the 16th artillery, it was to the point where it got to hand to hand combat in the gun pits around their 155 guns. And some of the North Vietnamese found out that their funny karate things didn’t necessarily work too well when there were some American who was willing to go ahead and grab them between both legs and take their head and turn it around. And then throw the body back over the—back over the side of the fire pit, which did actually happen a couple times there. But that—and you know, some of the North Vietnamese got beaten to death with rammer staffs and so forth as they came in. And you know, when the guys ran out of ammunition, didn’t have enough ammunition with them with their 16s, maybe they had it in a sleeping quarters that was not right by the guns or something at the time, but anyways, you know, there were a number of people that ran out of the small arms ammo. Well, most of the guys as the North Vietnamese took over the artillery pieces, they’d retreat into three guns of Bravo 2nd of the 19th. And there was a Lieutenant by the name of Piper and Captain Schlenker that I already mentioned and they went ahead and were supposed to fire 5-star cluster prior to firing beehive. Well, in the confusion, they couldn’t find the 5-star cluster so they just went ahead and sufficed with, you know, just yelling beehive. And people got down and the North Vietnamese were trying to turn around an artillery piece and fire at the Americans, were �yelling and screaming about, you know, all the things they were doing. “Americans, you die!” all this other stuff and they are trying to turn around the guns and they fired two beehive rounds. (01:04:43) Veteran: You know, the first one was fired and I think it was Piper that said, “traverse left” and they traversed about…Oh, maybe 5 or 6 degrees and fired the second round. And there were, you know, just huge hunks torn in the North Vietnamese line. And that was followed by a rather stunned silence from the North Vietnamese. Like jeez, you know, we just lost about 60 guys in 2 shots from those guns. And so that kind of slowed things down as far as the North Vietnamese. And their attack eventually bogged down. 1st of the 9th was flown in on a sandbar quite near there and a gentle slope that came down to the river and out. LZ Bird got its name because it’s the river’s streams came together and almost looked like a bird from the air, from a helicopter. And anyway, they dropped off 1st of the 9th near there. They managed to go ahead and they hi the back of one of the North Vietnamese units. The North Vietnamese backed away. Now, there was a…Lieutenant Piper had been injured during this. He had a lot of shrapnel and stuff from grenades in his legs. Colonel Culp, who was our battalion commander, got into the other H-13 that we had available at Pony and flew over to LZ Bird. And he got dropped off and he took command of LZ Bird from that point on. Schlenker had been injured, Piper had been injured. And they told—you know, Lieutenant Piper didn’t want to give up, he wanted to stay there at LZ Bird. (01:06:37) Veteran: And Lieutenant Colonel James Culp insisted that he go back to brief Major Hay, who was the S-3 officer, back at LZ Pony, that Major Hay had to be briefed. Well, actually that was not the case. It was a trick to get Piper to get on the helicopter. And he had the helicopter pilot put the word out to me that, you know, when Piper arrived, I was to take him directly to Captain �Risa. who was the battalion surgeon. And so, as this battle is winding down, I walk over to the helipad. And you know, directed the helicopter in when it came in. You know, I could see it, I had a pair of C-25 that I had put in my bag so I could communicate with him as he was coming in. And anyway, I had another medic, you know, form 2nd of the 19th with me. And he had a stretcher because I heard that Piper had lots of leg wounds. And I figured well, we might have to carry. So, we had a stretcher. The two of us would carry Piper down to Captain Risa. Piper was going to have absolutely nothing to do with that stretcher. He had to go talk to Major Hay. It was important that he talked to Major Hay to debrief him. So anyway, I realized there was no way I was going to get him to go down to see Captain Risa so I told the guy with the stretcher to go back down, get Captain Risa and have Captain Risa come up to the tactical operations center. (01:08:20) Veteran: Well, I walked Lieutenant Piper over there and he’s sitting in this folding metal chair on this dirt floor with a GP medium tent and a couple bare bulbs for light, which is what we had in the operations end of the thing. And anyway, he’s really pretty animated. I don’t think I have ever seen anybody so high on adrenaline as Lieutenant Piper was at that time. I mean, he was chattering away continuously to Major Hay. Meanwhile, Captain Risa is digging hunks of shrapnel out of his legs and he’s sitting there on the metal chair. And I am looking back over my shoulder at this going on. I thought boy, that guy is really high. You know, it’s got to be adrenaline because Piper was not one that would have had any drugs at that time anyway. And I thought wow. You know, it was just totally—totally amazed at how wound he was. And I kept doing my job, you know like taking calls on what, you know, they really wanted. Helicopters, if somebody had a target that we could fire towards where the retreating enemy were with artillery. And if I got the call, I would figure out what battery would shoot it and pass it on to the guys �who would do all the data checks with the plotting board on the other side. You know, I could just, you know, from one end of the tent to the other. So, that went on. The battle ended. I had…I think where I went out to wash clothes and wash my body once where I had a guy by the name of Scott with me. And we thought it was going to be perfectly quiet out there. We had a brief fire fight with two Viet Cong. They weren’t North Vietnamese regulars; they were not real well equipped. (01:10:22) Veteran: One of them had an M-1 carbine, the other one only had 2 grenades. And we both had M-16s but you know we were busy washing up at the time so we didn’t see them at first. And when I first saw them, I thought oh jeez, you know. There’s a—you know, Viet Cong or at least, you know, a Vietnamese civilian and he’s got a gun and he’s looking at me kind of evilly and he’s starting to fidget with that gun, getting it pointed towards me. So, I yelled at Scott. Scott got down. And then I noticed some movement off to my left-hand side and there was another Viet Cong that was coming at me and he had his arm back like this. Had a grenade. And you know, they talk about, you know, careful sight picture and everything. There was no careful sight picture on my part. Matter of fact, I think I figured that, you know, I could keep him father away if I stuck my rifle out farther. It wasn’t even on my shoulder at the time. And I got off a couple rounds with semi-automatic. And he started pitching forward. And anyway, it—later on, he started falling and I saw the grenade come out of his hand but it didn’t have any distance to it, you know. He apparently was already dying at that point. But anyway, just came a few feet away from his head and it went off. And you know, I yelled grenade to Scott and Scott got down. And then when he came back up, he didn’t have a good look at the guy with the M-1 carbine either but he fired some shots at the guy with the M-1 carbine. And we did find a blood trail but did not chase it down because there were only two of us out there and we were just out there to wash �clothes and wash our bodies. We were not, you know, we are not going out there for a hunt you know? It’s—that’s just the way it was. Well, this one Viet Cong that I had hit—I hit 3 times in the chest and then once kind of on an angle up through the shoulder as he was apparently falling. (01:12:42) Veteran: And he also had lots of shrapnel wounds on his head and shoulder from the grenade going off. So, I don’t know whether I killed him or whether the grenade going off close to his head killed him. But it turned out to be one dead Viet Cong. Well, we got back in and I reported it. Gillespie was real pleased that, you know, we had gotten the kill out there. Captain Graningham was not so pleased because we hadn’t cleared it with him that we were going outside of the perimeter to begin with. He was the battery command—battery commander for headquarters battery. Well, I was fortunate by this time I was getting along real well with Gillespie and Webber and they basically covered my ass for me on this little incident about being out and not letting his people know. Well, a little bit later we had been out and came back in actually after dark and we found the trip wires that our guys had set out and found them real easily. And I told Captain Canetto and Captain—or Captain Webber and he went over and talked to Graningham, said “Well, you know, I had a guy that just came through the perimeter in darkness,” and he says, “perimeter is not secure.” And Graningham was insisting everything was right. Well, then Gillespie got into it. They went out and found that yeah, it was probably not real well secure because some of Graningham’s infantry—Graningham’s rear guys from 2nd of the 19th work com put lines and stuff up like that. (01:14:32) Veteran: It didn’t occur to them if they wrapped white adhesive tape around these trip flares, they would show up even a little at night. So, anyway Graningham got kind of chewed out a bit on that for not checking the perimeter properly. And so, I am like oh I am in trouble with �Grenningham now. And it…he and I never really struck it off real well the whole time I was…or that he was with 2nd, headquarters 2nd of the 19th. But I got along well with Webber and with Gillespie and with Culp. So, you know, I had some officers covering for me. Now, Captain Webber came to me one day and he says, “We got a correspondent that’s flying in today. She’s a French woman. Her name is Michelle Ray.” And he says, “I’ve heard from some other officers that she’s a bit of a leftist. Now, she wants to come in and look at maps so make sure you have all of the overlays off of them when she comes in because she will just see terrain then and nothing about what we knew about the enemy or what, you know, where our units were.” So, when she got there I had that done and listening to the conversation I thought dumb broad, you’re going to drive your Renault up highway one and normally the only people who figure they are safe driving up highway one are the ones in convoy with a 40-millimeter duster and you know, all this other stuff in line. But you know, she’s going to drive her Renault up highway one. And I explained to her about the, you know, Viet Cong sometimes when there weren’t Americans there’s South Vietnamese regulars around. They had road blocks. (01:16:28) Veteran: And they were—they would collect ransom, you know, taxes, from anybody that was on the road. And I said, “Also, you know, you being a woman and a French woman, you know they might decide to collect you for taxes and ransom you off to your newspaper.” And that is exactly what they did. They caught her and I am thinking well, I told you you were being pretty dumb about that thing. And she wrote a book. I think it’s called Two Shores of Hell. And they’ve got a copy of that book down at the Hackley Library which I donated to but I met Michelle Ray that way. Now, the other correspondent that I saw at LZ Pony was SLA Marshall. Did I tell you about SLA Marshall? Or did I tell you— �Interviewer: You talked about him in terms of background earlier but not about this… (01:17:23) Veteran: Oh, okay. Interviewer: What you are seeing him for at this point. Veteran: Yeah. Well, SLA Marshall I mentioned the book—the battle of LZ Bird had taken place. Well, he was collecting material to write the book Bird: The Christmastide Battle. And I didn’t know that he was coming at the time. All of a sudden, there’s this kind of paunchy, graying haired guy that walks in. he’s got a name tag that says Marshall on it but no rank. And I quickly grabbed ahold of the guy and escorted him back out because all of these maps have the overlays on them, everything is, you know, secret and stuff that’s on there. And I walked him back out and I said, “Well, sir, you’re not allowed in there because it’s all classified.” And he said, “Well, I’ll be back a little later.” (01:18:12) Veteran: Well, lo and behold he comes back in with Captain Webber who introduces him as retired General SLA Marshall, who has written Pork Chop Hill, and I apologized to him but you know. He said, “No problem. You know, you did your job. You didn’t know who I was and you immediately got me out when I walked through that canvas door at the end of the tent.” And so, that was my one and only meeting with SLA Marshall in Vietnam, was at LZ Pony. During—it got close to Tet, 1967. And Tet was not a big battle in 1967 in Vietnam like it was in 1968. Well, about that time we moved to a place called Landing Zone English. Landing Zone English was near Bong Son. It was bigger than LZ Pony was. Matter of fact, they were in the process of expanding the length of the—what they called the PSP, or perforated steel plank, runway so that they could handle C-130s on it. Now, they had been running Caribous in there for quite a period �of time. And at LZ English, we had to start all over again with, you know, a tent with sand bags around it. Put up a new headquarters thing and start building our little individual bunkers that we were going to sleep in. And there at LZ English, they actually had enough generators around there where they were able to run a generator and run movies that they showed on a sheet at headquarters 2nd of the 19th. So, every once in a while, I got a chance to see a movie. Now, one of them was called The Last Centurions. And—or The Last Centurion possibly. But it was about this French officer during the Vietnam war when France was there. And then later on after that was over with, he ended up fighting in the Civil War in Siberia. He was a French Foreign Legion officer. Well, I managed to see the movie later on and see all of it without the clatter of the generator going outside. (01:20:35) Veteran: But I thought that was kind of neat. And they—but primarily, they showed old western movies and so forth, which seemed to be relatively popular. And it was a diversion from the rest of things that were going on. Now at LZ English, we used to get mortared occasionally. And one of the things I did fairly early on was I started putting together a sick call program where we’d go to the villages around LZ English. And actually, started that on LZ Pony. Graningham didn’t like that at all. Gillespie and Webber initially weren’t sure about it until we started bringing back some good intelligence information, you know. That’s when we started patching up the kids. Some of the parents started talking to us. “Oh yeah, yesterday afternoon, there were 20 Viet Cong that were on the far side of that rice paddy out there and they were going which direction.” You know, so they started giving us information. Captain Webber decided that, you know, okay we will start supporting these things. Interviewer: Okay, so to back up a little bit. Explain how you wound up doing this and what your inspiration for it was. (01:21:57) �Veteran: Okay, the inspiration on it was, like I said, I had been a ski patrolman before. I had been involved in first aid. I thought, you know, these poor little kids are caught up in the middle of this battle. They got infected sores primarily on their feet because, you know, if you got a war going on, you got all kinds of artillery shrapnel laying on the ground. You got—the kids were always stumbling over that. They had cut up feet and, you know, infections. Sometimes they had shrapnel in them. (01:22:27) Veteran: And eventually, we got a medic that went out with us and helped with that. A regular, trained medic. And eventually Captain Risa started going out with us some when we were at LZ English. Now, we got started on that right away and everything seemed to go pretty well. One time we went out and there was Viet Cong that were in the village already. They had basically told people to stay in their huts because they were going to ambush the village sick call program. At the time I was in charge of security for the thing. I was not doing much in the way of bandaging things anymore because Captain Risa went along and a couple of his regular medics. Now, initially I had been doing more stuff: cleaning up stuff with phisohex, pulling out little pieces of shrapnel, cleaning the stuff up, debriding the wounds and bandaging things up. We used an awful lot of a thing called zinc bacitracin which now you can get without prescription here in the United States. But we must have used that up by the gallon, you know. And also, I told some people in the church that I was doing this. Well, there were some people that worked for…drug stores and stuff like Runsel Drugs over here. His daughter was dating John Mixer and…not—no, Runsel’s wasn’t. Russell’s daughter was dating John Mixer. Anyway, through the church Runsel’s found out, you know, there were certain things that they had that were outdated. You know, they couldn’t keep the bandages on the shelf anymore so he wrote them off that they �were being sent to Vietnam, boxed them up and sent them off. So, we got some extra stuff like that that could be used. (01:24:36) Veteran: And one of the things was that there was a Girl Scout Troop from Ravenna who had decided to adopt me as big brother in Vietnam. They started, you know, at Christmas time they sent me Christmas cards. That was the start of the thing. And then they’d send letters and every once in a while, I would send a letter back to them. And I mentioned about the poor condition the kids clothing was in. Well anyway, this Girl Scout Troop did a knitting project; they knitted up a whole bunch of red mittens. Obviously, no use for red mittens in Vietnam but we got a big box of them and I explained well you know, it doesn’t get cold enough they really need mittens in Vietnam, you know. Mid-winter it gets down to about 60 degrees and raining which you know, if you’re cold and wet means shivering time but not any danger of frostbite or anything like that. And…but the kids thought the mittens were kind of neat because the color red is considered a sign of good luck. So, they had gone ahead and hung those on their fruit trees around their village. That was supposed to keep away the bugs, or at least they thought so. I don’t know whether it did or not but anyhow that, you know, the mittens ended up hanging on trees and bushes. (01:26:06) Interviewer: Okay. Let’s wind back around to your story. You said you were with one of these patrols heading into a village when the Viet Cong were there. Veteran: Okay. Yeah. Now, at that one there was a girl that ran from around the hut and she started screaming, “You look, no VC!” which meant many VC. And as she was running at me, I noticed that there was a Viet Cong that had just appeared from around the back of the same hut she had come around and he had an AK-47 in hand. And I had the M-60 machine gun at the time, not the M-16 but I actually had an M-60 with me. And normally around the LZ we would �have about 12 or 18 starter strip in it, then they had that ply—or, paper box that had another 100 rounds in it and you’d clip the end of that to the end and it would pull it out of this box but you’d try to keep the box closed so that ammo didn’t get dirty. You just had to keep wiping down these 18 rounds out front. Well, this Viet Cong came around the hut, pointed his AK at this girl that was running and I got on the M-60 and fired. And I remember seeing his Ak-47, firing full auto mind you, and now in this movie Saving Private Ryan that bothered me at the one incident where it shows the troops in the surf and you can see somebody screaming, there’s all the bullets coming in, but there’s silence—nothing going on. You just see this stuff happening, you can’t hear anything. Well, that’s where my mind went. You know, I can see this thing and it was almost in slow motion, just like on the movie Saving Private Ryan. I distinctly remember seeing a couple of those AK-47 cases coming out like this and tumbling in the air with a stream of smoke out of the front of the case. And they flipped off to the side. I am thinking bullets get there faster. I was on the M-60. Well, as the girl got closer to me, I somehow managed to hold that M60 up with just one arm which normally is not something that you can do. (01:28:36) Veteran: I don’t know, maybe the adrenaline was running too high for me right then. But I didn’t drop the thing down. It seemed to stay right where it was even though I was only firing with one hand and I reached over and knocked this girl down so that she was by this dead palm tree, or downed palm tree I should say and was probably, you know, destroyed by something during the war. But anyway, she was laying behind this palm tree and I flopped down to a prone position and this Viet Cong had gone down. He had just kind of gone backwards, slammed up against the wall of this hut and I remember his AK had a death grip on it. He was still firing the thing. And the AK rounds were going up into the thatch roof. And I remember thinking just like snow is this, you know, because it’s winter time and I am thinking about this little back home type of �thing. And they had this stuff was falling down on him. And you know, some of the other guys who were a little bit less savvy at fire fights…You know, they hadn’t started shooting yet and I said, “Shoot the Viet Cong!” And that, you know, finally—you know, a couple of the other guys starting shooting because about this point, the Viet Cong out of frustration starting shooting the civilians. And there were two women that were standing in front of the hut. I saw one of them get shot by this Viet Cong that was behind a well, a stone well. And anyway, I fired a couple rounds at him and a little bit later, he got up and ran towards the hut where he had shot this one woman. (01:30:30) Veteran: And I went ahead and swung at him with the M-60 machine gun and pulled the trigger and it went shunk! It was empty. I had not…Forgotten to hook the big strip onto it, you know, so I could just fire this 12 to 18 round starter strip. And so, I quickly flipped the switch on the righthand side so I could pull the feed cover up, pull the thing back, drop the new belt in, got it lined up, closed the feed cover, and swung back on this guy. Well, he was by this time just about inside of the hut. He was right by the doorway. And I fired and I hit him through the guts and through the hip. But what I didn’t notice, there was a young boy inside of the hut that I couldn’t see because it was dark, you know, this Viet Cong was out in the open. The boy was in the darkness, there was no window on that side behind him. And anyway, one of my rounds went in and hit this kid at the elbow. And after this fight was over, I went in there because I could hear the screaming and, you know, this kid’s elbow was just totally mangled. And that kind of really bothered me because I basically turned this kid into a cripple. You know, just smashed his elbow up with that 308 round. And I had, you know, nightmares about that after I came back. And I used to go down to Lake Michigan and draw it out on the sand when I after a while realized that �with the angle I was at, I—you know, even if there had been a window, I might not have been able to see him in there. (01:32:23) Veteran: This was one of those things that yeah, you know, you’re supposed to make sure of your target and what’s behind it from the hunter’s safety class. But this was not a hunter’s safety class, this was a gun fight. I was shooting at the bad guy. I couldn’t see what was in the darkness anyway. And I had hit the kid. Well the kid was medevaced out to a civilian hospital down in Qui Nhơn. I don’t know what their final result was but I am assuming they probably just cut his arm off. And…But anyway, we sorted out the bad guys. We had not gotten all of the bad guys. We did get a bunch of them. There was a group from another one of the units that heard the gun fire and came running down. They put a quick reaction team together and they followed blood trails and did catch up with a couple more of the Viet Cong later on but most of them, or at least the ones we hadn’t shot in that first fight managed to escape. But you know, it was a thing that once I got the other guys shooting, things kind of went our way. It’s just that there were some poor ones—you know, poor civilians that also got messed up, including this one that I knew I was the guy that did that. And so, that was the only time that we went out on the village sick call that I remember having a problem. Now, there was an Australian correspondent. Came to LZ English. Her name was Kate Webb. And there’s been articles written about her. She’s—you know, you can find her on the computer with no problem. But it doesn’t have, you know, all of her articles that she wrote. Maybe if you were on the internet in Australia, you could find those. But one of the articles that she wrote was More Than Big Guns and it was about our village sick call program. (01:34:32) Veteran: Now, Kate Webb was really only there for one full day. And she, you know, went to other First Cav units, I don’t know which ones that she visited. But she was real popular with us. �She got the nickname little sister. And she looked like somebody had taken this 9th grade girl and said, “No, you don’t go to high school, you go directly to Vietnam and here’s a clipboard,” you know, “and a camera.” And anyway, you know, the press corps down in Saigon had quite a time with her because they just didn’t believe this was a bonified reporter that had had a year of college as well as, you know, a high school graduate and had been sent by one of the Australian newspapers. Now, she actually was born in New Zealand I understand. But like Joe Galloway, she kept following wars for the rest of her life. She went and did a lot of stuff with the Marine Corps later on during the war. I don’t know how much time she spent with the 1st Cav but one of the—one of the stories involved her. The company she was with had stopped because they were just starting to clear a path through a minefield. And this officer, either a major or a lieutenant colonel, showed up, you know, all spit and polish and really looking sharp except he’s huge. You know, he’s maybe 6’4” and just has this, you know, Dan Blocker type of character. And supposedly, he had been a professional football player and had been in the Marine Corps reserve and decided that he was going to do his time over there. (01:36:33) Veteran: Well, I am not sure but there’s an article about the battle of Huế that talks about a guy that commanded one of the units in the 5th Marines that had been a lineman for one of the pro football teams and was over there in Vietnam and was considered a pretty good leader. Well, the story on Kate Webb was that she was sitting there and this guy goes out, he’s ready to walk out into the minefield. And she runs out in front of him and puts her arms out and, you know, like what’s this young woman trying to do, telling me where I can’t go and where I can go? And he goes ahead and brushes her aside and she gets back up off the ground and, you know, he’s by this time headed further into the minefield. And she runs out and grabs ahold of him. She’s wrapped around his neck on his back. And he goes ahead and brushes her off and she falls down �off to the side and about that time, the infantrymen get it across to him that he’s standing in the middle of a minefield and she’s laying in the middle of a minefield that they were just starting to clear. And they had to spend about the next 20 minutes getting the two of them extricated from where they had walked into. But yeah, that’s one of the stories about Kate Webb. And also, in Afghanistan, she spent about two hours perched out on a…the drainage pipe, outside of the window with the bad guys looking for her inside. And it’s cold, you know, this particular time in Afghanistan, and she’s standing up there on the third or fourth floor outside the building, you know, hanging on for dear life to a water pipe or something. And you know, she continued to do that sort of thing and she eventually died of cancer just a couple years ago. But she was somebody that we kind of thought quite a bit about because she was willing to go out and do the different things. Well, stuff continued on LZ Pony. Interviewer: Pony? Or, I thought we were on English now. (01:38:55) Veteran: I mean, not Pony but LZ English. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And the Gillespie, who by this time had moved up to battalion commander and you know, decided that yeah, we probably ought to have an underground bunker at LZ English because he thought we would be a pretty good target. So, somebody from the engineers came with a bulldozer and plowed this trench. And Captain Graningham was sent to go ahead and be in charge of the bunch that went to get some stuff to build this. And we flew on a CH-47 down to Qui Nhơn. And at Qui Nhơn, they had a big storage depot. You know, there’s this area about the size of maybe 6 tennis courts that says—you know, they are stacked probably 10-12 feet high. Toilet type one flush. And we are saying wait a minute…Now, at LZ English, we don’t have any �flush toilets anywhere that we know of. I mean, we have got these tubes that the powder for the 8-inch rounds came in stuck into the ground. The—you know, we call piss tubes. And then for the other job, they had a place where they had 55-gallon oil drums cut in half and you would go into those. There was like an outhouse type of situation. (01:40:24) Veteran: And every once in a while, somebody would be designated to pull that out. Now, there were usually guys that had worked in the field that weren’t very smart and really shouldn’t have been out there anyway and many of them were project 100,000. Now, that was LBJ’s thing where they were going to, you know, turn these guys that were unemployable skills like in World War 2, they had done a really good job at training people that didn’t have a whole lot of skills to do, you know, some fairly important stuff. Well, these guys with project 100,000 were really, really slow and if they got assigned to an infantry unit, the infantry company commander platoon sergeant said you know, this guy is going to do nothing but get people killed. You know, send them back to the rear. And they basically sent them back to the rear where they were turned into what’s known as shit burners. And that’s what they did, you know. A couple times a day they would go out and pull these barrels out and pit some diesel fuel in there, stir it up with a metal rod and set fire to the thing. And I mean some of these guys were so…so dumb that one of the guys was told to go burn—to go out and burn the officers’ shithouse. Well, he didn’t even take the barrels out from underneath the thing when he set fire to it and burned the whole building down. And so, you know, there were some of those guys from 100,000 that made everybody else look bad because so many of them got less than honorable discharges and, you know, or eventually were section eighted out that you know, unable to adapt to military life. And you know, so you saw a lot of the other than honorable discharges out of that. But most of them actually came from LBJ’s, you know, project 100,000. (01:42:26) �Veteran: Well, we would occasionally get mortared at LZ English. Since we were a good stopping point on highway one, they would go ahead and stop with the dusters and convoys there rather than running the bridges through Injun country to the north of us on highway one. During the nighttime, they would pull up and circle the wagons. And there was a guy from here in Muskegon that was on one of the dusters that I will get you his address and phone number later on. But he was one of those guys that spent time in LZ English and he knew where I was. He recognized several of the places and recognized several of the incidents later on. But LZ English, since it was brigade forward, also meant it had a huge ammo dump that provided ammo for all the artillery pieces all over the Bong Son plain and the Sui-Ca Valley and everything near there. And during that time period, 1st Brigade was sent to clear the An Lo River Valley. Now, there’s a book called Brennan’s War that talks about the An Lo River Valley and the Tiger mountains. The Tiger mountains are actually what really is called the Cai Gat mountains just south of Bong Son and then the south China sea coast. But the An Lo River Valley was one of those places that if you went outside any firebase that was there, within 500 yards you could find a fight, you know, any time day or night. And anyway, they decided to move all of the civilians out of there and turn it into a free fire zone. So, all the civilians were moved out. Well, during the process of moving everybody else out, they found some water buffalo. Some—not water buffalo but elephants. (01:44:30) Veteran: And some of those had been shot and were dead, you know, by passing helicopters. And, you know, you put enough 308 bullets, even an elephant will die from it. And a guy by the name of James Kenaffel who was in 1st of the 8th mentions that they had to wait and secure this dead water—or, dead elephant until somebody could come out with a chainsaw and harvest tusks off of him. Well, there was some officer that was crazy enough about elephants that he figured �they had to bring them back to LZ English. They brought them back and put them into a POW compound at LZ English. Now, according to Major Polk who was—took over from Hay, you know, the official report was an intruder had started the fire at the ammo dump at LZ English. Major Hay said no, that wasn’t it. That the barbed wire didn’t really stop the elephants and they stampeded and went into the ammo dump and there was some border ammunition that was already sling loaded, ready to go out to some infantry company the next morning. And there was one infantryman guarding the ammo dump that sort of panicked and he takes his M-79, touches off, misses the elephant but hits this pallet of 81-millimeter mortar ammunition which actually started the whole thing. But, you know, Westmoreland probably did not hear that this had anything to do with elephants. And the press didn’t either. But Major Polk, who was a black major who took over from Hay, said yeah that was the stampede of elephants where the guy cut loose the mortar round. But anyway, that was at, like I said, at night and I saw the explosions going off there and I thought oh jeez. You know? That means we are going to be very short of ammo. (01:46:35) Veteran: So, I quickly went down inside of the fire direction control bunker and said put on an entire niner-niner to check fire except for troops in contact, no interdictions. And then I went over and woke up Major Gillespie. And I told him, I said, “Sir, the ammo dump is on fire.” And the next thing he told me was, “Go ahead, go on the dock and tell them to check fire on any interdictions because,” he said, “all they are going to have there for the next day or two is what they got on the firebases.” I said, “I have already done that, sir.” And I was—he said, “Well, thank you.” You know. “Go ahead and continue on with what you were doing.” So, I ran back over to the fire direction control center, which by this time was underground because of the fact that this little trip with Graningham had been very productive. When we got to Qui Nhơn, we �found out that they had all kinds of stuff there: big timbers to keep things from shifting onboard the boats. So—oh, good timbers to hold up the side walls and all the sandbags that hold up the roof. And we had permission to get those because there was a civilian in charge of that. And he said, “Oh yeah, you can take all the timbers you want. They are just trash over here. They were used to keep tanks from sliding around and other things, you know, when they were coming over here.” (01:48:15) Veteran: But they also had some other vehicles there. They had a front loader there and Captain Graningham was looking at this load of a bunch of—several big bundles of PSP, that was perforated steel plank. He said, “I sure wish we could get those back to LZ English. It would be real good to put across our beams and put sandbags on top of them for good overhead protection.” And I said, “Well, I remember that when the civilian left to go to his air-conditioned hotel room, that there’s a board with keys on it.” And he said, “Really?” I said, “Yeah. I know how to run a front—a forklift.” And he said, “Go ahead and see if you can find keys for the forklift.” And he says, “Go ahead and take two of those bundles outside and, you know, put them in a sling.” And I said, “Two bundles might be a little bit much for that sling, sir. And he says, Well, we will have—we will tell the pilot to take it easy when we go back. But,” he says, “I want both bundles.” So, we went ahead and put the bundles out there on the sling and this guy didn’t come to work until probably 10 o’clock. And we were going to leave earlier of course. One of the other things that I probably ought to digress on: Graningham told me—he said, “Go find their artillery fire direction control center here and, you know, and find out what frequencies and what batteries we can call for if we need artillery fire out here.” Well, I couldn’t find the real fire direction center but I did find a place with a couple antennas and it said ‘officer of the day.’ So, I tapped on it and introduced myself. And I said, “Captain Graningham wants me to get the �instructions for where we can call in artillery fire from and the radio frequencies.” And he—this lieutenant looked at me and he says, “No, you don’t get any frequencies.” And I said, “But Captain Graningham told me.” He says, “Nobody shoots around here. You’re not about to start that.” (01:50:38) Veteran: And I said, “Well, can you sign a note that you’re refusing to give me frequencies and firing batteries?” So, he did. And I went and caught up to the other guys that were going to an engineer mess hall. And I went in there and I noticed that they were awfully quiet and everybody is kind of looking at us like who brought the elephant into the room? And they’ve got—you know, it looks like a mess hall back stateside with metal trays and the whole bit. And of course, we got helmets on, we are all wearing all our gear. And there wasn’t room for all of us to sit at one table so I went to a table nearby where there was some engineers. And I said, “Mind if I join you?” “Oh, that’s okay.” And I went ahead and put my knee on the chair while I went ahead and slid my helmet underneath and then hung my web gear over the back and held onto the chair so I could sit down because if I just had my web gear on, it was going to flip that chair over with. And so anyway, I sat down and he’s looking at me and he says, “You got a magazine in that rifle?” And I said, “Yeah. In 1st Cav, if you go anywhere, even to the outhouse, you better have your weapon with at least one magazine with you at all times.” And I said, “Otherwise, you can get you can get an article 15.” And he said, “But you got all that gear.” And I said, “Well, I carry that to work with me every day from the bunker I sleep in to fire direction control. Hang it on, you know, hang it on the post there.” (01:52:21) Veteran: And he says, “Are those real grenades?” I said, “I wouldn’t be carrying them if they weren’t real grenades.” I am looking across to him and I said, “Where’s your rifle?” And the guy goes ahead and pulls out his billfold and he’s got a number on there that says someplace in Qui �Nhơn there’s a rifle that if they ever get hit, he can go ahead and sign that rifle out. I’m kind of shaking my head like this. A little different world in Qui Nhơn than what we’ve got at LZ English and the head of LZ Pony. So anyway, we go out the next morning and a helicopter comes in and we climb aboard and have somebody who’s sympathetic to our cause go ahead and hook this sling of PSP to the bottom. And we take off and I remember flying back to LZ English at Bong Son. And all of a sudden, this helicopter lurches upward real quickly. I’m thinking oh no. And the door gunner on the front of the helicopter is looking over the side and then I hear him yell to the pilot that we just lost our sling load. Well, apparently there was too much stuff for the sling load. And I quickly ran up to the front and I said, “Can you give me the grid location of where that PSP went down?” And he did and Captain Graningham said, “You get the location?” I said, “Yes sir.” And he said, “Well, we will send people out with two more slings and we’ll see if we can recover that.” Well, they did. I mean, there were some kind of bent up corners and stuff, you know, where this stuff had crashed into somebody’s rice paddy down there. But anyway, we recovered that and used a sledge hammer to kind of, you know, square out the corners a little bit and used it for the roof of our bunker. Now, the motto of 2nd of the 19th artillery was on the way. (01:54:36) Veteran: And Gillespie was, you know, a fairly gung-ho type of officer. He was battalion commander. And he had us paint sandbags that said ‘on the way.’ And we laid those on top of our bunkers so any passing officer would know where the top of 2nd of the 19th was. And so, when our bunker was done, it had ‘on the way’ on it and all kinds of stuff. Well, as the tour went on, I came to a point where I was going to go on R and R. R and R was rest and recreation. Married guys got to go to Hawaii because their wives could meet them there. There were other places like down in Hong Kong where people went. I picked Japan because I thought I will never �get another chance to see Japan. So anyway, from there I went from LZ English to Cam Ranh Bay. And I noticed the guys had air-conditioned movie theaters there. They had outhouses and they slept in dry places. Now, at LZ English it was rainy season and we sometimes had to share our bunker with snakes and that was not good because some of the snakes over there, although they were only about that long, they were related to the coral snake, which we have in the United States. You know, you have to get ahold of a finger or something to gnaw on but the poison was deadly. I mean, they referred to them as two-step snakes. I don’t know if it was really that bad or not. But so anyway, went through Qui Nhơn, went to Japan. (01:56:22) Veteran: When I was in Japan, I spent several days at Camp Zama. Camp Zama is where they had the big house built for the guys who had been wounded. I would go over there every evening and play the piano for the guys that were hospitalized. And during the day I would travel around Japan. I didn’t spend much time with the Ginza or any of those places. But I went to a couple PXs and did my Christmas shopping there because we were headed—I mean this was October of ’67 so I thought it’s a good time to get Christmas presents. So, I got stuff for my sister and all those—all the other relatives and stuff and the girl that I was dating at the time. And sent all the presents back from there. I went to see Odawara Castle. Got some good pictures of that and also, I went to Koni National Park, which is their equivalent of a Yellowstone. And just a beautiful mountain area. Got a chance to go to Mount Fuji. And I ate some good Japanese food there, sitting cross-legged on the floor on a bamboo mat and the whole bit. You know, I had a chance to do all those neat things. And one of the guys that used to meet me on some of the things. And you know, we talked quite a bit. I kind of picked up that he was a helicopter pilot with 22, 9th. But we talked mostly about family, places we had been stateside and the things we were seeing that day and you know, what each of us had learned. He was rather surprised when we got back �on the airplane to go back to see that I was only an E-5. He assumed I was an officer and he says, “You talk like an officer.” And I said, “I live in officer country.” I said, “I didn’t mean to deceive you or anything but yeah I really am just an E-5 who works in S-2.” And he said, “Well, you probably ought to be an officer because you seem to know your way around officer country real well and have a grasp on what’s going on.” (01:58:44) Veteran: Well, a little bit after that I had another incident with a Chinook helicopter At LZ English. I had gone over to get some supplies from the brigade supply area to bring them back, you know, where the, you know, papers and clipboards and scissors and whatever else. But— maybe some typewriter ribbons for the guys that typed on these old-fashioned manual typewriters that, you know, put my notes together. But on the way back, I saw this Chinook come down and it wasn’t right near the helipad but I saw there were a couple of ambulances waiting. And I thought okay, I’ll go—I am a first aider, I can help move some of the guys off the helicopter. And I ran towards the helicopter, hit the rear ramp and fell down because it was all covered with blood—it was slippery and slimy. And I went in the helicopter and most of the guys were dead. I helped carry them out and, you know, I was really, really kind of upset about the whole situation. You know, like who let this happen that so many Americans got killed in such a short period of time? And how did it happen? And as—we were getting—this helicopter was getting ready to leave. I went up and the door gunner was kind of slumped over the M-60 machine gun. (02:00:38) Veteran: And I thought he had just been vomiting over the side. And I went up to him and I said, “It’s alright, you know. They’re all gone.” And he fell back. And he’d taken a 50 round—or, a 50 caliber round had gone right through his chicken plate armor and killed him. And anyway, it seemed like that length of that helicopter seemed like it was forever as I was trying to run in the �blood and stuff and tell the guys, you know, we’ve got another one inside. And as they came back up with me, I took the guy’s helmet off and the, you know, helicopter was already starting to crank up and the thing started lifting off and I was like well, if I go back to where this battle was then I am going to take revenge on somebody for what I have just seen. And you know, I was probably a little crazy at that time. And maybe even a little bit more than a little crazy. But, you know, I wanted to see somebody on the other side die for what I had just seen inside of this helicopter. Well, he flew maybe 100-150 yards and landed at the place where the helicopter was normally supposed to be parked. And I, you know, went to the—where the pilots’ section was at the front. You know, just walked through that open hallway and he recognized I was not his normal door gunner on that side. And he said, “Where is so-and-so?” and he gave the guy’s name. I said, “If you mean the door gunner, he’s dead.” And he threw the logbook at me that he had, you know, next to his seat. (02:02:29) Veteran: And you know, I kind of backed up a little bit because he was obviously really ticked too. And we went outside the helicopter and sat and cried for a while on the sandbags around us where it happened. And I went back to headquarters 2nd of the 19th and I walked back over because I told the jeep driver to drive back when I, you know, went to help with the helicopter. And anyway, they are in there talking about the report going back to MACV that, you know, this particular unit had suffered moderate casualties in the on lo. And I mentally came unglued at that point, you know. I started yelling and screaming like mad. When I woke up the next day, the Captain Risa or one of the medics, somebody had come up and sedated me. And I had been moved to my normal sleeping quarters. And the other guy that worked in the S-2 section under Captain Webber came over and saw me the next morning. He says, “You started yelling and screaming, acted like a straight crazy man last night.” And then I told him what I had seen and he �told me what had happened. And apparently, this unit in the Li River Valley had seen two Viet Cong coming down the path in front of them and went to ambush these two guys. What they didn’t know was that a North Vietnamese company had come down the hill behind them. Stop there? (02:04:18) Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SheathelmG2270V2 Title A name given to the resource Sheathelm, Glenn (2 of 3, Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-08 Description An account of the resource Glenn Sheathelm was born in Muskegon, Michigan, in 1946. Enlisting in the Army in 1965, he joins the Army Artillery and undergoes Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and AIT at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before being deployed to Nuremberg, Germany. He is then redeployed to Vietnam where he served with the Fire Direction Control and S2 Military Intelligence sections of the First Cavalry Division until after the Tet Offensive in January of 1968. He sees combat while on patrol, during rescue missions, during Air Assaults, and during the Second Battle of Tam Quan when he receives several minor wounds and is sent to the rear for treatment in the final days of his deployment. He then returns to the United States in February of 1968 where he attends the Western Michigan and Grand Valley State Universities for masters' degrees in library sciences, literary media, and history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheathelm, Glenn H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c98193bd879105585881368ec342e33f.mp4 59cf50917e16f5e0bc7ee8835a057947 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d49d2619ac6dd4403d27bf0ee237fba8.pdf ccbe31dfc9c4589a2504e1677c9327c9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Glenn Sheathelm Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: Okay, we are on session number 3, hour number 5 with Glenn Sheathelm who is still 5 or 6 hours away from a record here for an interview. But we have at this point gotten most of the way through his Vietnam tour but we have the last phase of it yet to cover. So, you can kind of pick up here wherever. Veteran: Okay, after 11 months in Vietnam, you know, it was a 12-month tour. I’d seen some of the things that had gone on out in the field where infantry units had had some real problems because the officers didn’t have much experience, they didn’t know much about the North Vietnamese or Viet Cong. And sometimes the lieutenant type forward observers were not too sharp on reading the maps. You know, there were ROTC officers that figured that you know, this is just a class I am going to; my life and death is not going to depend on it. They found out later on that it did. Well anyway, I decided that I could go out as an artillery recon sergeant, which was the NCO version of a forward observer. After a unit had been pretty badly mauled in the An Lo River Valley, they did—you know, inexperienced new officer who, you know, basically had to spend the rest of his life in a mental institution after he got back. Interviewer: Right. Because in the previous— Veteran: Because of the losses that he had. �Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And also, you know, they didn’t have a forward observer with them at the time. So, I said—I told our battalion commander, I said, “I will extend if you get me a job as an artillery recon sergeant.” I said, “I would prefer 1st of the 8th Cav because this was the unit that I had heard so much about, I had seen stuff about them, and they seem to be one of the better units in the 1st brigade.” And he said, “Well, you sure you don’t want to stay and work in intelligence operations?” Because I was doing a real good job for him—this was Vernon Gillespie. And I said, “No, I am only going to extend if I get an artillery recon sergeant job.” (00:02:18) Interviewer: Okay. Now, I think at the end of our previous section, you were talking about your response to that unit being mauled in the An Lo River Valley. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Where you had kind of lost it there for a bit and they had to kind of take you aside and— Veteran: Oh, yeah. Interviewer: And pull together. So—but after that, basically…So, you—so you kind of just pulled yourself together after that and— Veteran: Oh yeah, I—the next morning, I was able to function normally again. But they had to kind of send me to la la land for a few hours because, you know, they are talking about moderate casualties. Well, that was true: moderate when you’re comparing with the whole 1st Cavalry Division. But I had just seen the dead and wounded, mostly dead, from this unit and there was nothing moderate about what I had seen in that helicopter. And you know, the—I wasn’t looking �at the big picture like, you know, I had been trained to do at that time. I was emotional. And I got too emotional in the talk and they decided, you know, they probably would be better off sedating me and having somebody else run the radio rack and so forth until the next day, which was what they did. And after that I came back but, you know, there was still a lot of guilt that, you know, if these guys had a good forward observer with them and some experience with them, they might not have made the mistake. They might not have been hit with this North Vietnamese company from the back. They may not have focused just on the 3 Viet Cong that walked into their ambush. But I figured, you know, I can do a good job out there for them. (00:04:02) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: So, that entered—you know, guilt entered a little into my thing. You know like, I had been over here almost a year, I know the job, I know the Viet Cong. I can do a lot better job than a crispy new second lieutenant. So anyway, I asked for the job artillery recon sergeant, which you know was a bit more hazardous than what I had been doing prior to that. And of course, I— when I extended, I told my mom kind of a fib that, you know, their Army decided they needed me for another 3 months. I didn’t put that I had volunteered for this and also what I had volunteered to do. I mean, you know, after that I just started telling her about sunsets and asking questions about family back home and, you know, I remembered the Christmas with and Easter and…You know, those types of things. They got very, very whitewashed as far as the letters that went home. There was one person that did get a little bit more accurate picture but—and that was Lisa Medendorp who worked for the Muskegon Chronicle. My mom referred to her as “Glenn’s hippie friend” but she didn’t really talk to her at all and I knew the fact that, you know, my mom was not going to even think about asking Lisa if she got any letters from me. So, she was the only one that had even the vaguest idea of what I was doing towards that tail end. �Interviewer: Now, this is now late in 1966 that you are doing this? Veteran: 1967. Interviewer: 1967. Veteran: Yeah, because I got over there in November of ’66 so this is starting the beginning of November of ’67. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And my first day out in the field, they—the company had been back, you know, at LZ English but they had already gone back out again and were doing some patrolling in a bunch of mountains called the Cai Gaps. And there wasn’t really a placed where they could drop me off right where they were so they dropped me off where I could go ahead and go up the side of the mountain and basically intercept them. And you know, being a map reader and stuff, I knew I could hit the right place and I did. (00:06:33) Veteran: And I didn’t really get to know any of the guys during that first half day I was with them because they were on the move and basically hacking their way through the jungle. But I did know that they were later on going to quiet down and sneak in behind this village where they thought supplies were being brought in from the South China Sea in Saipan up the river to supply the Viet Cong. So, we were supposed to sneak in behind this particular village at night and watch for them to do that type of thing. I didn’t really get a chance to talk to many of the guys like I said but I did call some artillery fire in that night, tried to make it look like it was just interdictions because I didn’t want them to figure out that we were already up there. So, I just fired a few rounds and it turned out later on that at least one of those rounds had been in their vicinity because we found some bloody bandages there and later found some more bloody �bandages in a hut, oh probably 7-800 yards from there. So, you know, I had had some effect but that—the following morning, like I said, we are on a hillside behind this village and we were supposed to get resupplied. They didn’t re-supply us the night before because the, you know, helicopters coming in would have given away our position. So, in the morning helicopters came in dropped off some C ration things. The helicopter came in on a hillside and of course the rotor blade goes across like this. We had a guy that, by the name of Walter Bentley. (00:08:26) Veteran: I had actually briefly met him the day before. And he’d been doing point man part of the time and was hacking through the jungle. He was a little bit overtired. He carried a C ration case away from the helicopter and then decided he was going to go back and mail a letter. Well, he ran back towards the helicopter from the uphill side and went right into the rotor blade. The guy’s name was Walter Bentley. And his—you know, it—the officer’s daily staff journal says, “EM while running to the helicopter from uphill side; hit main rotor blade, decapitated head.” And that’s what it said in the daily staff journal. Well, Bentley’s mom sent some angry letters to Captain Canetto: why did you set up there? You know. My son got killed. You know. Well, Canetto actually felt pretty guilty about that for a while and it wasn’t until one of our reunions when I explained it to him. I said, “You know, we were supposed to be parked on that hillside. We were supposed to be behind that village. And I said that, “You didn’t—you weren’t the one that decided exactly where that helicopter was going to set down.” I said, “Sergeant Gary Wilson was the one that actually brought that helicopter in.” And he brought it in on the side of the hill, close to where all the stuff was going to be distributed. And you know, rather than guys carrying it up the hill. And I said, “That decision was made by Gary Wilson. It wasn’t made by you.” And I said, “You know, you didn’t even see this guy when he walked into the rotor blade. There were some other guys that saw him and screamed at him.” And…But, you know, Canetto wasn’t close �enough to actually see the thing happen. But, you know, ran over there after he heard what happened and they had him wrapped up in a poncho and the boots sticking out. And, you know… (00:10:41) Interviewer: And that’s the kind of thing where people in the air normally are supposed to know basic safety procedures around helicopters. Veteran: Yeah. That you never approach from the uphill side. And although you do approach from the side, normally you don’t do it on the uphill side. You come at it from the downhill side or straight from the front where the helicopter pilot can see you and you know he will give you hand signals if you got to be down lower. But in this case, the guy was running to the helicopter, a little overtired from the day before and didn’t stop to think about what he was doing and went right into the main rotor. And like I said, you know, it was one of those things that I was outside of the perimeter looking at the blood trail from the artillery fire mission that was going in at the time it happened. And I heard “Bentley is dead” and I am thinking I didn’t hear any gunfire. You know, how is Bentley dead? And then they told me and I thought you know, there’s a whole lot of ways you can get killed out here and, you know, it was kind of striking me that this could be a very long 4 months. And—but you know, it was kind of a hard realization but I can’t say that it really bothered me for any long period of time. I still remember exactly the situation and, you know, I had not seen Bentley when he got hit with the rotor blade but seeing him after he had already been wrapped up in the poncho with the blood running out of it, I remembered seeing that extent of Bentley but I didn’t see the incident actually happen. Some of the guys that actually saw it happen, it would have been harder on them mentally for a period of time, especially if they had yelled at him or warned him. (00:12:43) �Veteran: And…But anyway, we went from there and several other missions. One of them that I remember the most distinctly is in November. It was the one that I wrote about with the helicopter going down in front of us and you saw the 5-page thing I wrote on it. And that one was tough on me too because I had seen the helicopter come in the first time and almost stall when it pulled out. I thought either the pilot is trying to fly beyond what his ability is or there is something wrong with that helicopter that it’s not performing quite as well as it should. And I was worried about that helicopter stalling out. And the second pass, it did. It fell back into the trees. And we ended up charging across the rice paddy to rescue the crew. And of course, that meant I had to move artillery fire a little bit farther away because I didn’t know where the crew had taken cover if they had even gotten out of it because you know when it dropped down into the bushes, I couldn’t really see whether anybody, you know, got down on their knees and ran away from it. I could just see all this smoke and stuff coming out. (00:14:08) Interviewer: Now, what was the context of this? Veteran: Okay, the context of that. Yeah, that’s true that they haven’t read the story but the context was that we’d gone in, we’d surrounded a village, we’d done a cordon mission. We’d had a couple firefights early—earlier on in the, you know, that day and two days before. But we were just walking along this gravel road. It was the middle part of the day. The sun was coming down; I remember it was pretty hot at the time. 3rd platoon was in the lead. They’d gone past these two rice paddies and were starting to enter the pine trees. And about that time, there were some Viet Cong who fired from the village that was across the rice paddy on our left-hand side. Fire seemed to mostly be directed at the headquarters group because there were more antennas sticking up from the RTOs there. There were probably only two of us in the 1st platoon that had antennas: me, because I was artillery recon sergeant, and Lieutenant Reed’s radio operator. But �anyway, the fire came into the company’s CP area and we initially took fire, or took cover, behind the side of the road which was raised up above the rice paddy a couple feet. And we were, you know, away from where the fire was coming from and setting up a, you know, where we could have a base of fire. And Captain Canetto was going to do a normal firing maneuver and he figured his—whatever unit probably ought to be 3rd platoon because they had the cover of some trees since they had already gone past the rice paddy. So, he ordered them to start moving forward there and we were going to put down a base of fire. He had me call in artillery fire on the edge of the village and also on the left-hand side, which I did. And then this aerial rocket artillery unit showed up. Now, they are the ones with 24 rockets on the side for—so, we are talking 48 rockets. (00:16:30) Veteran: They—these were the C models before they had the Cobras. So, they had 48 rockets on the—or 24 rockets on a side, total of 48. And they, you know, put down a lot of rockets. And anyway, they made the first pass and I would, you know, I kind of yelled out the warning to the ARA, which is aerial rocket artillery section leader because that’s the one I could talk to. Told him, I said, “You know, the second ship almost stalled out that last time. I don’t think you ought to make another run.” Well, I couldn’t hear the helicopter to helicopter talk but I imagine that was probably something like, “No, I am just fine. Don’t listen to that dumb infantryman. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about” kind of thing that was going on between the second helicopter pilot and the section leader. Well, the second one came in and stalled out and crashed into the trees. Well, Captain Canetto thought well, so much for our nice laid out plan of fire and movement. You know, we got to get over there and rescue the crewmen if they are still alive. So, basically what he ordered was a charge across the rice paddies that would have included his CP group plus the platoon that was next to them plus the 1st platoon which was the bunch that I was �with towards the left-hand end. And we went ahead and charged across through muddy rice paddies about knee deep. And it’s really kind of hard to run that way. And it doesn’t do much for your pulse and blood pressure and all that other stuff when you’re running and getting shot at. And there was one Viet Cong that was over in the trees on the left-hand side and he’s going from tree to tree and occasionally taking a pock shot at us. (00:18:38) Veteran: Well, I fired three rounds. I think all three of them were misses because my heart was beating so bad at the time. But anyway, he apparently decided they were close enough that he had better find something else to be doing and I didn’t remember seeing him after that. Also, I put some artillery over there to give him another concern. But—because on the left-hand side, I could fire but I couldn’t fire near the edge of the village right straight ahead because we didn’t know where the crew had gone. Well, we were getting across there and I had put in fire on one of the bunkers that we had gotten fire from and it had collapsed the bunker and there was a wounded Viet Cong that was trying to climb out of the bunker and the guy that was with me, a guy by the name of Hillary Craig, took a shotgun and basically finished the guy off. And I went to grab the pack and weapon and he says, “Leave the stuff alone. We’ve got, you know, we are too much in a hurry.” And I thought yeah, he’s right. You know, gathering intelligence is not what I am supposed to be doing right now. We are still looking for the two guys or three guys that might have gotten out of the helicopter. So anyway, we moved on. They had found one of the other guys, one of the other platoons had found him. I think actually Canetto was with them. And then we found the co-pilot and he was down on his knees. He was pretty smoke blackened and stuff. And he’d been vomiting and stuff and, you know, we sort of got him calmed down. He wasn’t seriously injured but he was definitely suffering from smoke inhalation and possibly a compression fracture of the back. (00:20:40) �Veteran: He also had a broken wrist. But so anyway, Doc Adkins real—you know, splinted him up. And they said something about the crew chief. And we started looking around and one of the infantrymen saw some legs sticking out from underneath the helicopter. And he ran over there and says, “We got another guy underneath the helicopter. Come on and we will roll it off of him and pull him out.” So, a bunch of infantrymen are leaning up against this helicopter, which is smoking, it’s still got some live rockets and explosives onboard. And everybody is putting their shoulders into this thing, rolling the helicopter off. And anyway, we got it rolled up enough so that Doc Adkins and one of the other guys were able to pull the crew chief out from underneath there. And they dragged him, you know, a little roughly probably. You know, a long-axis drag like you’re supposed to. But, you know, kind of quickly. And they moved probably 30 yards maybe away from the helicopter. And I thought, you know, why did they take him so far from the helicopter? I am thinking yeah, it’s got all of those smoking explosives on the side yet. So, it started to make sense. And when they got him laid down, Doc Adkins says—said to me, he said, “221, can you help me get his helmet off?” And I grabbed the sides of the helmet and pulled it open a little bit and rotated the helmet off in case he had a neck injury. (00:22:22) Veteran: But…and underneath the helmet, his skin looked pretty normal. Underneath his nomex gloves, his skin looked pretty normal. But he looked sort of like an overdone steak on the face because all of the burning fumes from the helicopter fuel. And Doc Adkins went ahead and tried doing mouth to mouth on him and got nothing but, you know, charred flesh and pieces of flesh and he realized it wasn’t going to—nothing was going to really work. And I remember him being on his knees, kind of looking up at the sky with, you know, God please give me somebody that I can at least do something for. You know? But he had this, you know, kind of lost look on his face. And I was in the process thinking, you know, he probably needs a hug and the tendency �was to go over there and give him a hug. And I, you know, there were tears coming down my face too because when I pulled the guy’s helmet off, he had a picture of a girl in there, a darkhaired girl named Carol. Don’t know whether it was his wife or his girlfriend. And a short-timers calendar. This guy just had a couple weeks to go before his tour was going to be up. And you know, I felt really kind of frustrated by the situation. And so, I thought well, I will open my camera. One of the guys says, “No, you don’t take pictures of the dead guys.” And I said, “No, I am not going to.” And I walked over and took a picture of the helicopter and I still do have a picture of the wreckage of the helicopter. (00:24:12) Veteran: But you know, I just had to sort of get away from this thing, let the tears come down behind my camera and focus as best as I could and get the picture of the helicopter. And I did and as I got a little bit more composed, I heard—noticed some more gunfire farther back in the village. Now, what had happened was that Thomas Caulkins from 3rd platoon had gone through the trees on the right hand-side and actually gotten behind the Viet Cong and he was shooting towards them. Well, some of his rounds were coming towards us and of course, we had guys shooting that way too. And so, Caulkins ended up having to, you know, hit the ground so he didn’t get shot by our own guys because, you know, bullets whizzing both ways across where the Viet Cong were. And Caulkins was on the other side, you know, sort of as a backstop for things. And so anyway, he hit the ground and we got over into that area and there was a bunker between several of the huts, it was kind of a rounded top thing. And I got up against the bunker and was initially going to just toss a grenade into it and I thought yeah, but there might be some civilians in here too. So, I flopped down against the top of the bunker, pulled the pin out of the grenade, held the grenade so it could be seen from inside right over the doorway, and yelled “lai dai” and anyway, to get them to come out. And eventually, there was some movement down in there and �an old man came out, followed by a bunch of civilians. And the interpreter asked if there were any more Viet Cong or any more people down there and the older guy said, “no.” So, I pitched the grenade in, you know, just to make sure and…that there were no bad guys that were still hiding in there. And anyway, the old guy it turned out had fought during the time the French were fighting over there. (00:26:36) Veteran: And, you know, was sort of a village elder in this group of people. And after the fight got over, a helicopter came and picked up the wreckage of this ARA helicopter and we moved on. A day or two later, we went back to LZ English and showered. But that was one of the fights that I remembered distinctly in November. Now, air assaults were hit and miss things. Sometimes the bad guys were there, sometimes they weren’t. But about 5 minutes before the infantry went in on an air assault, there would be artillery that would fire on this field or hilltop or wherever we were going. And the artillery would come—would be coming in and the last round that each artillery battery fired was supposed to be a white phosphorus round. So, if there were two batteries firing, there was supposed to be able to see two white phosphorus rounds hitting the LZ, which would indicate we were all done shooting because helicopters didn’t want to go in and land and unload troops when there are still artillery rounds en route. And it sometimes, you know, if there weren’t, I wouldn’t see enough white phosphorus rounds and I would be standing on the skid alongside of the helicopter and reach over with my M-16, slap the pilot up the side of the head, you know, because he’s wearing a helmet and he’d turn around and look at me and I’d wave go around and, you know, okay. You know, there is something that I know about that LZ that says he’s, you know, supposed to make a circuit before he drops us off. But most of the time, there were the right number of artillery rounds there and we would jump off onto the ground. (00:28:36) �Veteran: The door gunners, the helicopters that we rode were called Slicks. They look a lot like the Huey that’s sitting on the pedestal down there by Mona Lake, except they had an M-60 machine gun hanging on each side. And those were the types of helicopters that our first lifts would go in on. Subsequent lifts would sometimes come in on Hueys, sometimes on CH-47s, which were the twin rotored helicopters. Now, when the CH-47 ran a daily trip around the artillery bases, we referred to that as the school bus. And for guys that weren’t familiar with a CH-47, they quick like got familiar with the fact that if the thing is landing somewhere near there, you’d better hang onto your helmet too because the wind blast from the thing is bad enough, it would lift the helmet off your head and send it flying. I mean, it would pick up water cans and bounce those around. I’ve got a picture of that happening too. But like I said, mostly we went out out of regular Hueys. Now let’s see…The next big fight for 1st of the 8th actually we gained information on it. We made an air assault into the mountains between the Bong Son plain and the An Lo River Valley. This was 1st platoon of Delta company and Bob Reed was in charge. (00:30:16) Veteran: And we had a prisoner that had been picked up that was going with us and, you know, he knew where there was a place where the Viet Cong quite frequently stopped and also the North Vietnamese stopped and would meet with the Viet Cong. Well, we got fairly close to there and we were talking to some villagers who said, “Yeah, there was some North Vietnamese that went up that way last night.” Well, while this conversation was going on, one of the infantrymen was looking with my binoculars into this ridge and he says, “Yeah, they got 3 or 4 people up there.” And he says, “Apparently one of them has got some type of a mess kit and,” he said, “they seem to be set up and not too worried about us.” Bob Reed says, “Well, let’s make it look like we are going away from there.” So, we got on a path and made it look like we were walking �away from that particular ridge. Then he had us drop down into a stream that had bamboo growing along the side. Well, we got down into the stream, we are about waist deep in the stream which was relatively clear water because it came down from the mountainside. There was actually a waterfall up on the mountainside above that. And anyway, we followed the stream and it got us up close to the base of this ridge and he had us deploy into a skirmish line and he said, “22-I, I want you to go with the bunch on the left-hand side.” He says, “it will put you on higher ground first but,” he said, “I want you to put artillery fire up where, you know, they saw the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese.” And he said, “Keep it going until we get up real close to them.” He says, “Since you’re going to be up on a little higher ground, you might be able to see some of us in spite of the heavy underbrush between the rocks.” So, I went up there and there were some North Vietnamese and Viet Cong that were having a meeting. (00:32:23) Veteran: It was actually a planning meeting so that the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong were going to attack the town of Tam Quan and hold it over the Christmas truce. Well, we didn’t know exactly what they were doing there when we went up. But as they overtook the area, there were primarily rear North Vietnamese troops which were sort of an easy battle for a line infantry platoon like Bob Reed’s, which was a real sharp infantry unit. And it was a kind of a one-sided fire fight. And Bob Reed says, “Well, we have what we think was their CP under control right now.” He said, “Go ahead and start bringing in the left flank.” And as I was coming in, there was a North Vietnamese that sort of popped up in front of me. And I didn’t think there was, you know, I was wondering how he got there so suddenly because I didn’t see him walk in there. Well, I fired a shot at him as he ran off and I caught him across the ass cheek. And another one of the guys had a better shot at him and killed him. But I went to where this North Vietnamese had first appeared and I thought okay, how did he get here without me seeing him. I thought I �wonder if there is maybe a cave entrance around here. So, I started poking around the bushes near the base of kind of a rock wall. Lo and behold, there’s the entrance to a cave. And I pull my flashlight and shine it down inside. I can see the edge of a great big, you know, metal box—like, you know, milk boxes they used to have on your back porch years ago. They were a metal mound and they had some insulation inside. So, I told one of the other guys, I said, “Come with me and give me your 45, I am going to check it out.” And I dropped down into the entrance of this cave and, you know, here’s some North Vietnamese web gear hanging on the side. Of course, that sort of runs up the blood pressure and pulse rate real fast because okay, where’s the guy that belongs to that. (00:34:46) Veteran: You know, I have just dropped into his cave—he knows where everything is; I don’t know where anything is. And it turned out that he wasn’t there. He’d gotten out of the cave and my artillery fire had kept him from getting back there to pick up his web gear. Well, I checked these metal boxes and checked around for booby traps and they were okay. And I thought well gee, I wonder what’s in these? And I lifted up the top and in the top of one of them there’s some North Vietnamese guidons. You know, they are triangular flags like you see Custer and the cavalry coming to the rescue with in the old-fashioned movies with the cowboys and Indians. Well anyway, I found one of these—actually, there were two guidons and a North Vietnamese national flag in there. And I grabbed the top guidon which said roughly ‘resolve to advance’ which was the motto of the 8th Battalion, 22nd Regiment. And I wrote it down on a piece of paper, put the piece of paper in there, for intelligence information, everything that was written on the flag. And do a real quick sketch of what it looked like and set the flag inside of my shirt— this is going to be my war trophy. Well, I mail it back to my sister and I labeled it ‘scarf.’ She was going to Western Michigan University at the time. And you know, for some guy to send his �sister a scarf seemed reasonable. I figured if I labeled it ‘North Vietnamese flag’ some rear guy was going to pick it up and so much for my war trophy. (00:36:22) Veteran: Well, it got back to my sister and she kept it and then I put it on my wall at home. And after a number of years, I stopped at West Point, noticed they didn’t have a whole lot of North Vietnamese stuff like that there. And I said, “Would you like a North Vietnamese guidon?” He said, “Well, there weren’t any of those that made it back.” And I said, “Would you like a North Vietnamese guidon?” And he says, “You’ve got one?” And I said, “Yes.” He immediately went up and got a registered mail box and so it was sent to West Point. It’s on a rotating display there right now. But so that flag did make it back, along with the web gear. I took the Browning 9millimeter out of it. It was made by Ingalls Company in Canada. And it’s too bad that pistol couldn’t talk because it would have had a lot of stories. Like I said, it was made by Ingalls Company in Canada for the nationalist Chinese back in…I think 1942. And so, it had been used by them when the communist Chinese took over. It probably was on some communist Chinese officer’s web belt for a while. And then when the Chinese started making their own pistols, it got passed down to the North Vietnamese. And I understand the last person that it belonged to before I liberated was the pay officer for the 8th Battalion, 22nd Regiment. But anyway, I carried that the rest of my tour in Vietnam. Was not able to bring it back stateside because I couldn’t get back to rear in time to get the paperwork processed. And we are talking a semi-automatic pistol. And— (00:38:17) Interviewer: But did this raid succeed? Did you capture some of these people who were at the meeting? �Veteran: Yes, we did. It included not the pay officer. We understand that he had a pack full of money and we never found him. Now if we had, the money probably would have been used by guys in 1st of the 8th for getting their laundry done and stuff like that which probably wouldn’t have turned it in. I mean, Bob Reed was known as Lieutenant Reed and his Bandits for Good Cause. He had a real problem with the operations sergeant, a guy by the name of Dave Wright. And I’ve got a picture of the two of them. Both of them are smiling and one of the other guys said, “Seeing Dave Wright and Bob Reed both smiling in the same picture is practically unbelievable.” You know, because they were almost at each other’s throats most of the time. I remember Bob Reed had, you know, his platoon was back in the rear and some of the guys had gotten a little bit feisty back at the rear and he had me go out with him and pull his guys out before the MPs came to get them. And you know, I was sober and I was in the platoon CP at the time and he got the word that some of the guys got in a fight in one of the NCO clubs some place so we went and dragged those guys back before the MPs dragged them back. And of course, they would have delivered them to Sergeant First Class Wright who would have probably made sure they were written up for various charges of one type or another. And Reed wanted to keep his guys out of trouble. We went and got them first. But Bob—or, Sergeant Wright still at reunion time referred to Lieutenant Reed and his Crazy Bandits. And he didn’t think Lieutenant Reed was much tighter wrapped than most of the guys that he ran with and they had the…When the platoon was out on an ambush, they used the call sign ‘Chinese Bandits’ and Reed thought that was a very appropriate call sign for Reed’s bunch. (00:40:45) Veteran: And that name had actually come from a long-range recon group, which we had several guys that were put in Reed’s platoon. And, you know, they were some real aggressive soldiers. But probably not too much to have in the rear area. One of them was a guy by the name of Joe �Musial. And Joe was actually from down in Daggett, Michigan. He hosted one of our company reunions. I went down and helped him with that. And one of his squad leaders later on became a prosecutor down in Louisiana. And he’s the one that did the eulogy for Joe Musial. And I remember in one of the closing comments, he says, “Joe was a fantastic soldier. He was not the type of soldier that you would pull out if you wanted to have a parade or something. He was one of those types of soldiers that you would like to mount on a wall with a sign up above: ‘in case of war, break glass.’ And you know, that’s the type of guy Joe Musial was. You know, he was a bit different. And one of his earlier exploits with the company, this was before Canetto was even company commander, the battalion S-3. This was prior to Major Burba. But he was—battalion S-3 flew in. He said to the company commander, he said, “You know, you’ve got troops down there bathing with no clothes on down in the river.” (00:42:40) Veteran: And the company commander said, “No, I don’t.” He says, “I know where all my troops are and there’s nobody downstream.” And anyway, this S-3 officer said, ‘Well, you hop in the helicopter with me; I will show you.” And they went ahead and flew over and lo and behold there’s these naked bodies laying on the rocks down in the river. And company commander said, “Could you take us a little lower?” He says, “Those aren’t Americans, those are Vietnamese.” And of course, the S-3 officer said, “Why are they naked and why are they laying out in the middle of the river on the rocks?” And of course, the company commander didn’t really want to say too much about what his suspicions were but the previous day, Joe Musial had an ambush out near there. And they caught some North Vietnamese who were crossing the river and were coming out. Well, Musial’s platoon went ahead and gunned them, stripped all these North Vietnamese down, folded up their uniforms like they were going to be washed and stuff, you know, and laid them along the side of the—laid them alongside of the path and then put all these �bodies out on the rocks. Well, the S-3 officer said, “I want those bodies buried.” And you know, whoever was responsible for it, they are going to go down there and dig graves for these guys. Well, Joe Musial took his platoon down. They did dig some graves right behind these nicely folded uniforms, and then they put ‘death from above cards’ on every one of the uniforms and left them right there alongside of the path that came out of the river. It was like a warning for a Viet Cong, you know, look out: we are here. (00:44:38) Veteran: But they did have ‘death from above’ cards. And Joe Musial carried a whole bunch of those. I remember several other guys that carried large stacks of them. I think I only had 3 and I’ve got one that is still in my collection at home with the photographs. But you know, I was not too much into that. And we were told not to use those because CBS News had had a camera crew over there and the camera crew had taken a picture of a—one of the guys putting a ‘death from above card’ in this Viet Cong’s mouth and taking his boot and pushing the guy’s teeth shut, you know, around it and apparently, this was seen back stateside as you know very, very unfavorable. So, officially we were not supposed to use the ‘death from above’ cards. But they were still occasionally used. We had, like I said, a few guys carried whole bunches of them. But you know they had actually been started by Captain Bill Mosey from Charlie company, 1st of the 8th. He lives in the Duluth, Minnesota area. And he and I still correspond back and forth. But his war platoon leader came up with the idea and Bill Mosey went to Barnes and Bigelow and had a whole bunch of them printed up. (00:46:18) Veteran: And then they showed up at 1st of the 8th and for a while they were okay and then of course after this CBS News report, the word went out you know: unofficially, we were not supposed to use those anymore, so their use declined but they were still used occasionally. �Interviewer: Might have worked in an earlier war but not one on television. Veteran: Yeah. It—and that was that, you know. To go ahead and take a pin or fasten it to the top button of some Viet Cong’s uniform, you know, the ‘death from above’ card. It’s…You know… Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: What we frequently did: we’d make a little slit in the card so we would slip it in the button. Interviewer: Okay. So, how long did you actually spend doing this forward observer— Veteran: I did that the last 4 months. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I was involved in the second battle of Tam Quan. And then come January of 1968, we got Agent Orange once in the An Lo River Valley real bad. Number of guys were real sick and were actually taken out of the field that same day. Also, that day we were being led by a 4th platoon leader that none of us can remember his name. I just refer to him as Lieutenant Lost because he couldn’t read a map. And that particular day, he’d been lost most of the day. The engineers were dropped off where we weren’t and he said, “Oh yeah, we got the LZ secured.” I said, “But sir, we are nowhere near that mountain.” And he said, “Don’t worry about it, they’ll be okay.” I watched this helicopter, you know, it’s probably 1500 yards away, drop these guys off on another mountain. (00:48:11) Veteran: And you know, like these guys have got a whole bunch of explosives, a couple M-16s, and 45s. They are supposed to blow up this whole North Vietnamese underground hospital �complex. And of course, they think they’re—that we are right around them, that we got them secured. Well, they look around and like no, they’re out in injun country all by themselves for about 40 minutes until I got over there with the squad and said, “Okay, just follow us. We will meet up with the rest of the platoon.” Well, it was late that day and we were supposed to meet up with the rest of the company and the lieutenant says, “Well, we won’t have a problem getting there because we will just go back on the same trail we did getting out of here because we know where we left the company. And then just go follow their trail back up to where they are.” And I am thinking okay, that’s an awful long way around and it’s going to be dark before we catch up with them. Some of the infantrymen figured that out too. They said, “22-I, is there a shorter way we can get back to the company?” And I said, “Yeah, there is.” And they said, “We would kind of like you to lead the way because we don’t want to follow that lieutenant the rest of the day, especially after it gets dark.” And it was practically a mutiny but it—we were kind of late when we got back to the company area. And all of this time, Captain Canetto was getting chewed out by Lieutenant Colonel Dubea who was the battalion commander, about “Why haven’t your guys got this hospital complex blown? Why did they not have the area secured where the engineers were?” And of course, Captain Canetto can’t do anything about it because he was several kilometers away from where 4th platoon was most of the day. So anyway, one—the lieutenant says, “Well, it was all a guy by the name of Barrett’s fault. And—or Barrett’s fault.” And anyway, Barrett was a black guy. And Captain Canetto, after hearing Barrett’s story, says “Barrett is saying that the lieutenant is a racist.” (00:50:38) Veteran: And he called me in, he says, “You think the lieutenant is a racist?” And he—and I said, “No. Why?” And he said, “Well, Barrett is filing a racism charge against him.” He says, “I’d rather not deal with one of those.” And he said, “What really went on today?” I told him �what had happened, about this lieutenant getting lost and that he wasn’t where he was supposed to be. And I said, “That’s what really slowed us down.” And he said, “Well, what about Barrett taking off after some Viet Cong without permission? And getting called back and not coming back?” And I said, “Well, I was with Barrett and,” I said that, “there were two Viet Cong that crossed in front of us and we took off after them. And Barrett wanted to keep going after them and I said ‘No, we can’t do that because the lieutenant has called in a location that might not be right and they might not clear my artillery fire mission because they’re so far away from each other.’ And he says, ‘You mean we might not be able to get artillery fire?’ And I said, ‘Yeah, that’s right Barrett.’ And he says, ‘Well, I guess we better turn around then.’ So anyway, we turned around and went back and the lieutenant had stopped on the path and he had the rest of his platoon stacked up behind him and they’re just basically sitting there doing nothing. And you know, Barrett and I and Barrett’s fire team came back and we got in line. And shortly after that, we got sprayed by Agent Orange and the—you know, because we were in the wrong place.” And then he said, “Well, sounds like lieutenant Reed made quite a few map reading errors.” And I said, “Yes, sir.” And he said, “Well, I remember when we went back to An Khê at Christmastime where he said he was in a certain location and I remembered having to straighten him out.” (00:52:34) Veteran: You know, and he said that, you know, Canetto had called him up and said, “Well, if that’s where you are, you ought to be able to see the green line from there.” He said, “Also, if that’s where you are, you are standing in an old French minefield.” And he had the lieutenant pop smokes so somebody could go find him and bring him back to where the company was. But anyway, towards the end of this conversation with Captain Canetto he said, “Well, if you don’t think he’s a racist, do you think he’s incompetent?” And I said, “Well, yes sir.” And he said, �“Well, this guy has been out a month and a half. He’s not learning his job and he’s still making some of the same mistakes.” And he said, “I think he is incompetent too. I am going to have him replaced.” Well so a little bit later he calls the lieutenant up and, you know, the lieutenant comes to his CP. And he says, “Lieutenant, I am sending you back to the rear.” He said, “You make too many mistakes to be a platoon leader in my company.” And this lieutenant said, “Well, I can read a map at 30 miles per hour out of the turret of a tank.” This guy had been an armor officer someplace. And Captain Canetto said, “Well, that may be true but out here there are no road signs.” And he said, “You’re going back to rear.” And that was the last that we saw of Lieutenant Lost. (00:54:02) Veteran: The story was that he was given the job of brigade sanitation engineer, which was basically the officer in charge of, you know, making sure the garbage was properly disposed of and the shit was burned properly. But I don’t really know if there is any truth to that but I heard that from one of the other infantrymen. But so, Canetto was not above getting rid of incompetents if he had them. And he did get rid of that lieutenant. And the rest of the officers we had were all pretty good. Now, Captain Canetto thought Reed was probably the best in his—he thought Lieutenant Barrick was good too but Barrick was wounded. And his replacement wasn’t quite as sharp as Barrick was. So, his second choice after that was Nelson DeMille. Nelson DeMille was a very famous mystery book author. One of them was turned into a movie called The General’s Daughter. But anyway, he did Nightfall and a whole bunch of things. Mystery authors are quite frequently familiar with Nelson Demille. He’s written a lot of mysteries. Usually one of his main characters is a Vietnam vet and sometimes the Vietnam vet is based on the composites of several guys that were with our unit. For instance, in Up Country, he mentions the fight between a Viet Cong who had a machete and an American troop who had an �entrenching tool. And the American with the entrenching tool wins the fight. Well, Hillary Craig had actually killed a North Vietnamese with an entrenching tool while I was with them and I said, “Hillary, what did you do that for?” And he said, “Never killed anybody with an e tool before.” And Hillary Craig was one of those guys who was a very aggressive soldier. I never saw him abuse a civilian at any time. You know, he was good there but he loved being in battle. (00:56:25) Veteran: He was very good at it. And he later on went—you know, had difficulty adjusting to civilian life for a while so he was a guide up in the Yukon area for a number of years. And eventually was building sets and huts up there for the National Film Board of Canada. And one of them discovered that, you know, he was also a very good cook and went back home to open a restaurant in the state of Washington. Which he did, which is called Alligator Soul. And later on, his second wife was from Atlanta, Georgia and they also opened an Alligator Soul in a historic district of Atlanta, Georgia. And the story behind Alligator Soul is, you know, an alligator is an ugly creature but it’s still got a soul and personality that, you know, we ought to pay attention to. And that was why the Alligator Soul. And you know…But he died—well, let’s see: he was awarded the Silver Star for fighting in the A Shau after I left. He knocked out a tank with an M72, a light anti-tank weapon from the side. And you know, captured a lot of North Vietnamese equipment. Matter of fact, there’s a television thing where it shows the American troops coming back with a bunch of Russian trucks they captured in the A Shau and Hillary Craig is the one standing in the back of the first truck with his M-16 in hand and this big smile on his face, a scarf blowing in the wind. (00:58:19) Veteran: But like I said, he was a real aggressive soldier but real good at what he did. �Interviewer: Okay. Now, was the event with Lieutenant Lost, was that one of the last things you did in the field? Or…? Veteran: Actually, that—we fought the second battle of Tam Phon. There weren’t too many of us there because most of Delta company was kept to look for the 18th North Vietnamese regiment. There was one battalion that hadn’t arrived and the idea was that 1st of the 8th would find them first and put artillery fire on them. So, I really only spent one night in the second battle of Tam Phon. Now, during that time I picked up a compression fracture of the spine, some burns on one hand, and also some lacerations from a bullet that bounced off the APC. None of this stuff was serious but the fact that I was limping, somebody thought I was more serious and they sent me back to the hospital at LZ English. And from there, I was supposed to go to Qui Nhơn where they would get a better look at the back and determine how bad it was and whether I ought to be in a back brace and ought to be back in the rear or whether I could go back out to the infantry company. Well, I wanted to go back out with the infantry company even though I still hurt, so I put my backpack frame on and it felt better with the backpack frame and the radio. So, I went out to my company but I forgot to make sure everybody knew that. And for a while, I was listed as missing in action. They were looking for me at hospitals and they eventually got it straightened out but I didn’t get paid for my last two months in Vietnam. (01:00:15) Veteran: You know, December—well, actually December, January, and February I didn’t get paid for those until I got back stateside so I couldn’t buy another camera after the one got ruined during the battle of Tam Phon. Interviewer: Okay, so what actually happened to you at Tam Phog? �Veteran: Actually, the compression fracture of the spine—there was a .50 caliber machine gun that was on this burning armored personnel carrier. And there were a—you know, we are getting shot at. This armored personnel carrier was burning because it got hit by a recoilless rifle. And there were other guys—one guy that was put in for a Silver Star there actually climbed into the burning vehicle and amputated a guy’s leg at the knee that was trapped in there. And of course, I had some blood from him on because I helped, you know, bandage and put the tourniquet on the guy’s leg. Well, people saw all the blood on me and thought I was a whole lot worse than I thought I was because I knew I had a sprained ankle, I knew I tore my back because I jumped off this armored personnel carrier with a .50 caliber machine gun across my arms. This is a heavy load of steel, you know. Not really good to be jumping 7 feet and carrying this so that was probably my first compression fracture with the spine. And I’ve done several since then with various things that I have done. But Lottie is not pleased with what my spine looks like right now. Interviewer: Alright. This is now hour 6 of the Glenn Sheathelm interview. We had now kind of made it sort of to late 1967 and you’re getting in the last couple of months now of your Vietnam tour. And now you get a change of scenery. (01:02:16) Veteran: Okay, after December of 1967, we did a little bit of patrolling in the An Lo River Valley in early ’68. Now, I mentioned about lieutenant; he was replaced probably a little bit before the middle of January of ’68. And it was a week or two after that, we got word that we were going to go up to the de-militarized zone and help the Marines at Khe Sanh. We boarded a C-130 at LZ English. When we boarded the C-130, one of the infantrymen decided to pull a typical infantrymen’s thing and he had a hand grenade pin in his helmet and he pulled it out and he says, “Anybody know where the rest of my hand grenade is?” And of course, the load master �on the C-130 turns white as a sheet. And you know, then he realized that he had been joked, you know, on this thing. But you know, there was some real concern that someplace there was a hand grenade minus the pin rolling around inside that C-130. And but, it took our whole company on board the C-130 and of course, the story from the C-130 load master had told us that you know, we couldn’t carry hand grenades. Well, Captain Canetto told us to go behind the conexes and he said that, “I don’t want to see a hand grenade outside of your packs, you know, when we get back onboard the helicopters.” Or onboard the C-130. So, we hid all of our stuff in there but Captain Canetto was not going to leave any stuff behind. He knew that maybe when we got up there that they might not have enough ammo or grenades or anything like that and he was going to be combat ready. You know, it’s like 5 minutes after we walked off that C-130, we were going to be ready to go into the field, which basically was what he was set up for. So anyway, we took the C-130 and landed it the Hue/Phu Bai, which is the airport at Huế. And they loaded us on C130s and flew us up to near the de-militarized zone. (01:04:30) Veteran: A place—well, Quang Tri is the last big town before you get to the de-militarized zone. There’s small villages like Qua Viet and Con Thien and so forth north of that. But Con Thien got the name— Interviewer: Could you land a C-130 on Quang Tri? Or did you take trucks up there? Veteran: We took C-47s. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: The CH-47— Interviewer: Helicopters. �Veteran: --helicopters up to there. And they dropped us off but yeah, at Quang Tri at the time, there was not a place where they could land a C-130 there. Later on, there was. Now, the Marine Corps had this attitude towards the 1st cav coming up there that we had so many helicopters, you know, it was just like mosquitoes swarming around. And our helicopters also were better armed than theirs were. And the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese learned that pretty quick, that you know, you can’t just expect one or two passes from a gun ship but you can expect these ARL helicopters to come back, you know, six or seven times and fire rockets at you. So, you know, the North Vietnamese found out some different things about the first cav. Also, we could move a lot of troops a whole lot faster with the number of helicopters that we had. Now, one of the places that we worked off of was LZ Ann, which was a mountaintop landing zone. The artillery battery was on the very top. The infantry was down on a kind of a ledge partway down. And while we were on that ledge, we had a mortar round come in one night that…Oh, probably hit about from me to the copy machine over there from me. And I was laying in my hole, you know, it was at night. (01:06:27) Veteran: And I had a couple layers of sandbags. Well, I—when I heard what sounded like a mortar round coming in and the pop, I didn’t get up or do anything, I just laid there in the hole. The mortar round went off. Now, Lieutenant Carney was laying in a hole probably about the size of that table over there. And it had one row of sandbags around it and his pack was leaning up against the outside of the sandbags. That mortar round came down right on the pack. And he had shrapnel from his ankles all the way up to the back of his neck. There were two other guys that were wounded. One of them got hit in the neck but Carney and the one guy that got hit in the neck with shrapnel were medevaced. I was mostly covered with dirt and gravel, you know. No serious injuries of any type. But anyway, Lieutenant Carney was flown out. He was the �lieutenant-type forward observer. Not real popular with the infantrymen because he made a couple mistakes. One time, he’d called in white phosphorus. White phosphorus doesn’t fly as far as HE does. And he should have given, you know, an add 75 to it. And instead, he gave a drop 75. And the white phosphorus came down right on the perimeter and a guy lost his leg because of it. So, like I said, he was not real popular with the infantrymen. Sometimes they would say, you know, Lieutenant Carney is calling in interdictions around the perimeter and you’d see the infantrymen heading for their holes—about like rabbits. And so, some of the infantrymen were not real sad to see Lieutenant Carney go, you know. (01:08:26) Veteran: Well, it’s kind of bad that somebody got wounded but they were kind of glad that he was gone and that also meant that I was running the forward observer team. There was no lieutenant that was sent in to replace him for a long period of time. And anyway, the next morning Captain Robbins, who was in charge of A battery, 2nd of the 19th which was the unit on the hill, he said, “Have you got Lieutenant Carney’s binoculars?” And I said, “No, sir.” And he said, “Well, are they a combat loss?” And I said, “Yes sir, the round hit right on his pack and his binoculars were attached to the pack.” He said, “Well, we need the serial number.” And I am sort of trying to sort through the various bits of shrapnel laying around for a green painted piece of metal that’s got a serial number on it. And I said, “Well, this is 3 digits of it.” You know, and I called that in and he considered that good enough. He marked off, you know, Lieutenant Carney’s binoculars as far as being lost in battle. And I said, “You know, you’ll have to mark the compass the same way.” And he said, “Well, for some reason or another they didn’t ask for the serial number of the compass, so I’ll just, you know, go ahead and say yeah you know, that was destroyed when Lieutenant Carney was wounded.” Anyway, we ran some patrols off there and one of the units called in that they’d shot a Viet Cong elephant. And one of the guys farther up �the line says, “Well, how do you know it’s a Viet Cong elephant?” And I said, came back on the radio when I said, “They said it was dead so it’s got to be a Viet Cong elephant.” (01:10:22) Veteran: It—you didn’t say well, we had killed some dead civilians or something like that. They were either Viet Cong or Viet Cong sympathizers, you know. So, things were run that way most of the time. Occasionally, we did report, you know, civilians and stuff. I kind of remember one time we were on a patrol and we came to a place where there was a village that the Viet Cong had taken the civilians out and were using them like porters to carry supplies. And there was an old woman and a young girl. The young girl had been, apparently, was put by a fire in a blanket. The blanket caught fire and she was badly burned. And the old woman, who I am assuming was her grandmother, was staying with her while pretty much everyone else in the village there were moved out. Well, a little bit later when the company was getting ready to come into the perimeter at a different location, I said, “You know, about that girl that we passed up,” I said, “Would it be possible that we go back and pick her up and then take her into LZ English and have her flown to a hospital?” And Lieutenant Reed says, “Well, we’ve got the rest of this patrol to finish but,” he said, “if you can find some volunteers who want to go with you, you can go back and pick her up.” So, I asked and I immediately had volunteers. And we went back and picked her up. And I remember we brought her into the artillery fire base. And she had been badly burned. The medic from the artillery came over there because the medic with first platoon was still out with them at the time. And I remember making chicken noodle soup out of, you know, a chicken noddle C ration thing. And I added some water to it and made a broth, you know, with a canteen up because she was dehydrated from the burns so I could tell that. (01:12:39) Veteran: And we propped her up on a backpack and she was eventually flown out with the grandmother to a hospital down at Qui Nhơn. How she fared after that, I have no idea. But you �know, we’d—sometimes, were in situations where we would go out of our way to, you know, help civilians out. And that was one of them that I remember because I was personally involved in it. But anyway, when we were up there near Quang Tri, we worked off of LZ Ann and LZ Betty and you know, there were several other ones we worked off of. And then they had us go ahead and do some recon of the area between Quang Tri on the south side of highway 9 where we could put artillery batteries and kind of hitch hop over to help the Marines at Khe Sanh. Well, that was when the Tet Offensive broke, while we were doing that. So that mission didn’t actually take place until after Tet and I had left by that time. I had actually pulled off. But they had actually did use two of the firebases that I had reconned and said what had to be done. And you know, there would be suitable places where they could, you know put some infantrymen on there and det cord blow the trees down and you know, then bring artillery pieces in with CH-47 Chinooks and go to work. (01:14:22) Veteran: So anyway, when the—just before the Tet Offensive, we had some heavy engines. We had 5 man—what they called a Killer Team—that was out along the river. We were having Claymores set up. Supposedly, the Viet Cong were bringing rockets down to fire on Quang Tri by raft on the Dong Ha River. Now, the Dong Ha River is the one that if you see the movie Bat 21, that’s what it’s based on is the Dong Ha River. Where he got picked up, it’s just south of the de-militarized zone. And the North Vietnamese took over that area during the ’72 invasion and also they basically held most of it during the Tet ’68, except where there happened to be some Americans standing on that ground. But they had basically—did control that area. And so anyway, we had this bunch of heavy vehicle engines and I called on the radio, I said, “Are you sure there’s not any South Vietnamese unit out here with tanks because I am pretty sure what I am hearing is tanks.” And they said, “No.” And anyway, I had one of the guys climb up to a little �ridge with a starlight scope and I said, “You want to take a look and see what you see out there?” And he says, “Oh yeah, they are definitely tanks and there’s infantry with them.” I thought okay, we haven’t got any good guys out there. They have got to be the bad guys. Well, we didn’t want to get cut off from our company so we quick like picked up all of our Claymores and got away from the river and zig zagged, you know, a path. We did not encounter these guys on the way out. So, by sound I ran an artillery fire mission on them. And I apparently damaged one because we found the following day that they had had to stop to repair one of the vehicles but they had moved it to where it was better cover by the time daylight got there. (01:16:36) Veteran: I reported them as Russian PT-76 tanks. This is before the Tet Offensive. And military policy was from Westmoreland’s office because he was military assistant command in Vietnam, that information on North Vietnamese build-up in the two northern provinces was politically unacceptable at the present time. And apparently, CBS News might have had a copy of that because Westmoreland was going to sue CBS for defamation of character when they said that he had, you know, not been prepared for the Tet Offensive. And so, they knew there had been some lies that were purposely spread around because of his office so I am assuming somebody had a copy of that even though it was stamped secret and I didn’t see it until a bit later on. But nobody was informed the fact that there was a Russian built jet shot down in South Vietnam or that there were Russian built tanks in South Vietnam. Now, these tanks apparently were supposed to have been used for the Tet Offensive towards Quang Tri but their commander apparently saw the fact that the Marines had M-48 tanks with 90-millimeter recoilless guns. He was basically outgunned so they turned around and looked for a softer target. And there’s a book called Tanks in the Wire which is about a special forces camp that got hit by some PT-76 tanks roughly two days after we had seen them. And I am thinking that it could have been some of the same tanks. (01:18:27) �Interviewer: Depends on how long would it have taken the tanks to get there. Veteran: Yeah, you know, it would have been possible for them to get there in two days but that’s assuming they were able to run, you know, at a normal cruising speed at night when they didn’t have to, you know…That they’d have lights out. But anyway, the Tet Offensive broke and most of the Americans were pulled back to guard the cities like Quang Tri. Our battalion commander Donald Rattan, also known as Snapper Rattan. There was an LZ Snapper named after him when they finally pulled that thing at Quang Tri. But that was his nickname from West Point. And he decided that since we had some people that were real good at calling in artillery fire, and some good platoon leaders—we had some leading these guys that had come from recon platoon and myself—he figured, you know, we will leave you guys out there because the North Vietnamese coming south to go after the cities might be a little sloppy because they figure they basically control that area out there—it’s Indian country. Well, one night we did catch a battalion of them that were getting supplies from underground caches and they were using flashlights to sort supplies out. We were about 600 yards away, the platoon that I was with anyway. And I got 4 artillery batteries to p0und them. And the North Vietnamese lost very heavily that night. (01:20:10) Veteran: Sort of like the North Vietnamese were probably ‘Chicken Little, the sky is really falling.’ You know? Because 4 batteries of artillery—they just pounded them for about 10 or 15 minutes, starting with the time on the target wall to when the first rounds came in at the same time. And the infantrymen just, you know, get some 22 like…you know, they’re watching through binoculars as this stuff was crashing in on them. With the flash of the artillery, they could see these North Vietnamese just get torn apart by their artillery fire and they thought that was really cool and I am thinking you know, this is kind of strange: I’ve got a cheering section �for killing people. And come to find out, I eventually got a Bronze Star for that too. And my sister said, “But you’re a hero! You got a Bronze Star.” And I said, “No, that’s just for being very good at my job, which was making the other side die faster than we did.” And I told her about that particular fire mission and I said that that probably played a big part in that Bronze Star because it was for January/February ’68. Well, the Tet Offensive—we continued to do well against the North Vietnamese. Towards the end of the Tet Offensive, there was one of these— actually, a couple of these North Vietnamese units that had been so badly hit they were broken down and put into one company. And it said there was a Viet Cong platoon guarding this bunch of Viet Cong cadre and this was right after I left. They went and got involved in a battle with them. There were several of the guys that I knew pretty well from 1st of the 8th that were killed in that battle. We had a new forward observer there at the time and there was—the guy that they sent out as artillery recon sergeant was not real competent. (01:22:19) Veteran: The lieutenant-type would have been but he was overly cautious because he’d been safety officer for 1st of the 30th Artillery before that so obviously he did not want his name on an artillery incident thing where some people got killed by friendly fire because he goofed up. He was real careful about that, which made him a little slow getting the first rounds in. But there was a guy by the name Gary Nelson Frey that ran the artillery fire for A Company, 1st of the 8th during that battle that actually kept one of his platoons alive because of the artillery fire he put in. And there’s a guy by the name of Tom McAndrews who was company commander for A company, 1st of the 8th that was really praise worthy of this Gary Nelson Frey who was later on killed in the A Shau. But yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Now, I want to steer back here to your story. Now you get pulled out? �Veteran: Yeah. Now, I mentioned about running the artillery stuff and I did that throughout the Tet Offensive. And the—there was one night where some North Vietnamese had walked through one of our ambushes and they didn’t spring the ambush. And I put some artillery fire where I thought those guys wanted—you know, it did cause some casualties. And I didn’t know the North Vietnamese had already pre-planned positions, had already dug their so it didn’t do as much damage to the North Vietnamese as it would have if they had been troops in the open. (01:24:10) Veteran: During that day, the medic—a guy by the name of Adkins—knew that I was having trouble keeping up. I had dysentery, I had blood poisoning, I had all kinds of infections. I was basically a rotting piece of meat. I’d—when I went to Vietnam, I weighed 195 pounds. At this time, I probably weighed about 130 and was, you know, not really in great shape. And Adkins and Lieutenant Reed came to me and said, “You know, you’re going to take that med-evacc there back to Quang Tri. You’re so sick,” well Adkins said, “You’re so sick that within the next day or two, you’re going to fall over and people are going to have to carry you.” And he said, “You also might make mistakes because you’re not thinking as clearly as you should.” And he said, “It’s about time you took the medevac out.” So, they flew me back to Quang Tri. And the next day, you know, Adkins was right: I couldn’t even climb up from the floor into this wooden bunk that I was supposed to sleep in. And this was about a week and a half before I was supposed to leave country anyway. So, that first week I spent basically under the care of Dr. Risaand, you know, they loaded me up with all kinds of antibiotics and cement pills to stop me up so I didn’t have diarrhea. And you know, I started putting on weight and I could actually walk by myself before Captain Risaturned me loose and said, “Okay, you go ahead and take a C-130 back to An Khê. You know they’ll—I’ll process you and you’ll be going back home.” And he says, “By the time �you get there, you’ll be under 90 days so you’ll get an early out.” And when I got back to Fort Lewis, Washington they said, “Well, you can stay here another month. We will see what we can do about curing the jungle rot and the other stuff you got wrong or we’ll just write out a prescription and you’ll get it filled back home and you know, that’ll—that should take care of you. If not, you got a VA hospital in Grand Rapids.” (01:26:36) Veteran: So, I did that. I took my early out and figured no, I don’t want to be treated here at Fort Lewis, Washington. You get assigned little duties that don’t mean anything, like go out and shine the sidewalk or—you know, whatever sort of nonsense that they might come up with. So, I took an early out from there. I flew from Fort Lewis, Washington on a Northwest Airlines conveyor twin engine prop plane because I wanted to see some of the country at at least a lower altitude than I would from a big jet that would fly me directly from SeaTac near Fort Lewis to Chicago and from there to Muskegon. So, I must have stopped about 5 or 6 times, you know, in North Dakota, South Dakota, or wherever. And Billings, Montana and…So, I made several stops on the way back. And it took me a whole day to get back on that. Interviewer: Now, did you fly in uniform? Veteran: I did because I flew out from a smaller airport near Seattle. And some of the guys didn’t because there were not there but if you flew out of Oakland, there were people throwing rotten fruits and vegetables at you already. You know, it’s ’68. So, I did fly back in a uniform and I stepped off the plane in Muskegon in uniform. Some of the guys, you know, figured that they’d get rid of their uniforms in Chicago and come back in civilian clothes. (01:28:30) Veteran: I didn’t—I actually walked off the plane with the uniform on. And of course, since that was March—or actually at the tail end of February, I had a khaki uniform on and a field jacket �over the top because it was cold here. I mean, when we flew into SeaTac, it was cold and rainy too. So… Interviewer: Okay. Now, I want to back up a little bit and talk about a few different themes that tend to come up a lot when people think about Vietnam. One of the stereotypes that has to do with drug use, for instance. Was there much of that— Veteran: Any what? Interviewer: Drug use. I mean, were there people smoking marijuana or things worse than that? Or…? Veteran: Occasionally there was someone that smoked marijuana but it was always back in the rear and the thing was that the guys figured that they couldn’t get any ice for a mixed drink or something like that so they smoked a little marijuana, got out a little happy. Nobody ever smoked in the field in my unit—either 2nd of the 19th Artillery, which I was in earlier, or 1st of the 8th. Now, there was one guy in the commo section in 2nd of the 19th that I heard smoked marijuana, didn’t actually see it. Interviewer: Okay, so it’s not been a major part of your experience. Veteran: No, it wasn’t. Now, later on during the Vietnam War, it was a bigger part. And I understand that was true even in good units like the 1st Cav and 101st Airborne. A great pointer who was a first sergeant in the 1st Cav was later 1st sergeant with 101st Airborne, I think ‘69/’70, and he talked about—you know, the fragging of NCOs and they had officers and the drugs and the drug problems but I didn’t see it during the time I was there. (01:30:40) �Interviewer: Okay. And then another one you touched on a little bit has to do with the question of race. I mean, you had the one issue there with the person accusing Lieutenant Lost of racism. Did you notice much by way of racial tension? I mean, you did when you were in Germany. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: There was a sergeant that— Veteran: Yeah. And that seemed to be mainly true of rear infantry groups. You know, when you were out in the field, you relied on this other guy with a rifle or machine gun to help you stay alive. Didn’t make any difference if he was black, white, or purple: as long as he was wearing our uniform, you know, you could depend on him. And you know, I saw white guys going out and grabbing wounded black guys and hauling them back and the other way around with white guys wounded, black guys putting their lives on the line to go out and drag them back. You know, we didn’t see that out in the field. Now, I don’t know whether I mentioned Ling? He had been—he was Vietnamese and for a while he had been my interpreter when I was in 2nd of the 19th. He was a South Vietnamese that could speak English and he was an interpreter for headquarters—actually, the S-2 for 2nd of the 19th. And he used to go out on these village sick calls with us and short-range patrols. And I said, “Ling, you only carry two magazines.” You know, they are generally clipped together where—the bottoms weren’t taped together. You know, two 20 round magazines. “You never carry web gear. How come?” And he says, “Sergeant Sheathelm, if it takes more than two magazines we ought to be running, not fighting.” (01:32:35) �Veteran: And I found that true of the South Vietnamese: they realized that they were in this war basically for their lifetime and, you know, if you have a chance of determining what this fight is going to look like from the very beginning, you know, you pick your fights so you got a good chance of winning. And we tried to do that too but the Viet—South Vietnamese or the ARVN were definitely more into that, you know. Well, if you think we can win this, you know, we will go ahead and attack or…You know, like let’s see: there is 8 of them or 8 of us and 45 of them…Let’s just slide off and find a fight with them some other day, you know. So, I did find some differences in South Vietnamese troops. Some of them were very bold and brave; some of them…so-so. But one of my cousins who worked with the Cambodian mercenaries against the Viet Cong really thought a whole bunch of them. Gillespie thought a whole bunch of the Montagnards that fought on our side during the Vietnam War as far as being very brave. There’s a book called Abandon Hell that was written about a battle in 1970 where the Americans were already looking at, you know, were pulling out of this war and they didn’t send the re-supplies and ammo that they should have to help out this bunch of Cambodians. (01:34:23) Veteran: But they, with a couple American advisors, they did manage to fight their way clear of this Firebase Kate, which was right along the Cambodian border. And that was a pretty good book about that time of the war and the fact that, you know, where a lot of Americans were beginning to look at, you know, not really too sure about being the last guy to die in this war that we are going to give up on anyway. Whereas there was more gung-ho during the time I was there, you know, in ’66, ’67, early ’68. Interviewer: Yep. �Veteran: Now, after the Tet Offensive was when most of the guys said that things started going downhill. Walter Cronkite had come out on the news and said, “This is a war that no sense being there anymore because we are going to lose in the long run.” Interviewer: Well, he didn’t actually say that. Veteran: Well yeah, some of the— Interviewer: He declared it a stalemate. That was as far as he went. If you look—but that, so— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But basically, it was still—as far as Lyndon Johnson was concerned, he had lost Walter Cronkite. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And so, yeah. Veteran: Yeah, and…But yeah, Walter Cronkite had looked at it, you know, this war is being mismanaged—it’s probably not going to come out well. And the American people saw that and of course, they saw the Tet Offensive with the Viet Cong getting into our embassy. Of course, the Viet Cong all died that got into our embassy and a large number of them died at Huế and they died at Quang Tri and probably the biggest example of North Vietnamese dying was at Khe Sanh. You know, they had the Marines surrounded and pounded the Marines and caused Marine casualties. But there was—there were more bombs dropped on the area around Khe Sanh than were dropped on any Germany city during World War 2. I mean, the North Vietnamese admitted �to losing just under 200,000 troops, you know, that were supposed to be taking over Khe Sanh. (01:36:41) Interviewer: They didn’t—that’s not. Okay, that’s a different issue. But they lost a lot. Veteran: Yeah. The North Vietnamese—you know, there was one general that admitted that that cost them close to 200,000. And you know, they were just chewed up by B-52s, you know. This was not artillery fire from the Americans but just, you know, their trenches, their battalions coming south to reinforce the North Vietnamese. You know, B-52s strike and 400-some men was reduced to 18, you know. Interviewer: Yeah. Alright, I guess now the—another good question: how did the men in your unit, as you observed them, how did they seem to view the South Vietnamese civilians? Veteran: They were actually pretty good about the South Vietnamese civilians. They recognized the fact that, you know, we were going to be there a short period of time and maybe the Viet Cong were going to take over at night so that, you know, made them understand that the South Vietnamese didn’t always get as free as they’d like to be about giving us information. Sometimes the, you know, we felt pretty good because the civilians did give us good information. Sometimes they just didn’t say much of anything. But you know, we realized they were in a tough place. And I think most of the infantrymen felt that way. Like when we pulled into a village—the village cordon—the American troops generally would share their rations with the Vietnamese civilians, particularly the kids. And you know, they would gather around and share a peanut butter jelly sandwich made with bread canned in 1943 and peanut butter before it was homogenized—looked like desert salt flats with a little peanut oil on top. (01:38:36) �Veteran: Yeah and we only—I only remember one guy that was down on the civilians. He was our first sergeant. And one time he threw a concussion hand grenade back on the kids that were picking up the supplies we had left behind. And one of the infantrymen threatened that this first sergeant might have an accident in the next fire fight. And the first sergeant said, “You heard that. He threatened me.” “Heard what, sir?” Just, you know, just playing dumb but I knew what was going on and I knew why, you know, this guy was a bully. He was doing stuff wrong. We had a—one guy that actually later on became a probation officer in the Denver area who actually got ticked off; this first sergeant punched him out one time. And he, naturally, got busted for doing so and even Captain Canetto said, “I hope you hit him hard because,” he says, “that guy was totally worthless.” And you know, he knew that this first sergeant was not one of our sterling characters. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Okay, go ahead with your next question. Interviewer: Another piece of your story I wanted to go back to a little bit. You mentioned at a certain point in your tour you had a job going around and talking to people after firefights or actions and finding—getting their different accounts of what happened. So, you were essentially interviewing people— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: --LZ Pony I think was where that was. �Veteran: Now, that was early on. I interviewed some of the people that had been involved in earlier battles to write up lessons learned for artillery on what we could do better with artillery fire to support the infantry. (01:40:41) Veteran: And of course, the la Drang battles were a part of that and then the May 21st-22nd battle which SLA Marshall wrote up in his book, Bird: The Christmastide Battle. And SLA Marshall also wrote up David Dolby’s Congressional Medal of Honor thing and he had some errors or exaggerations in there. And I knew that because I knew that the artillery fire that they got there was primarily illumination. Later on—or, the one artillery fire mission run by Charlie company’s FO early on drove the North Vietnamese out of some bunkers. But once the battle got started, the Americans and the North Vietnamese were too closely mixed up to effectively use artillery fire. And David told me he didn’t do that, in spite of SLA Marshall’s praises for his good artillery fire and ARA and so forth during that battle. He told me he didn’t do that. He was a brave soldier that put down one of the North Vietnamese machine guns that had some guys pinned down. He took his lieutenant and hid the lieutenant’s body where the North Vietnamese wouldn’t find it and helped get some wounded guys down to the streambed where…First name was Bill but anyway, one of the 3rd platoon leaders from Bill Mosey’s—not 3rd platoon but 2nd platoon made it from Bill Mosey’s company came up and helped get the wounded back from Roy Martin’s platoon that had walked right in front of the bunkers and been hit right at the start of the battle, which resulted in David Dolby’s lieutenant getting badly wounded then eventually killed during that battle . (01:42:49) Veteran: And there were a couple other guys that were hidden in the rocks and then not pulled back to the streambed the next morning when Bill Mosey took his company there because his company was up to strength. They picked up those other two bodies but there were two of them �that were actually left out in no man’s land that first night. And one of the stories that got passed off that it was, you know, Roy Martin was a chicken for not being sure that those two bodies were policed up. Well, he got information verified that those two guys were dead and, you know, the area was controlled by the enemy. It had turned dark. Roy Martin’s platoon, or company, had—they had taken some heavy casualties. And the decision was made that B company would pull up to the side of the valley where Captain Bill Mosey had his company set up. And the next morning, they brought in chainsaws and lowered them down from, you know, helicopters and the guys went ahead and cleared some trees so that medevac helicopters could pick up the wounded that had been laying in Mosey’s perimeter all night. (01:44:19) Veteran: And so…You know, that’s how it went there. Interviewer: Yeah. When you were doing these sorts of inquiries, were you talking to both officers and enlisted men? Veteran: Yes, talking to both officers and enlisted men. Also, I had access to a lot of the secret documents and so forth concerning those fights which is why I knew that there was information out on that second battle in the la Drang, the one at LZ Albany. But it was basically kept quiet for the first 14 years after the battle took place and I knew it had been released in 1979 which would have been 14 years for the secret classification to be removed from that, unless somebody had upgraded it to top secret. So, at Grand Valley I knew that there was going ton be information out there to write the report, The la Drang: Almost Forgotten, which Grand Valley still has a copy of it. And it apparently is available out there on the internet or somehow on the internet, they know it’s available because Hal Moore used it and JD Coleman used it in writing their books. So… �Interviewer: Yeah. And when you were talking to people, did you have—were they pretty forthcoming or did you have the sense that people were holding stuff back? Veteran: They were very forthcoming because they knew that this was going to help some other people out in the future and anything that was going to help other people from going through the same type of hell they did, then some of these battles was worthwhile. (01:46:16) Veteran: So yeah, they were pretty open. And the guys I talked to—I mean, Rick Rescorla would be one and he, you know, there were several people. And Rick Rescorla reminded me a little bit like that’s probably what Winston Churchill was like as a young man. Rescorla was a Welsh immigrant. He fought in the British Army prior to coming to the United States, joined the United States Army, went to OCS, got a lieutenant’s commission, and led an infantry platoon during that second battle in the la Drang, which was the one we called LZ Albany. And now, he was killed during the World Trade Center bombing. He was the head of security for Morgan Stanley. Interviewer: Oh. Veteran: And he had been down in the basement. He had seen the van that had blown up down there and said, “You know, this building is still a target.” And he said, “Next time, it could be an airliner.” He says, “We are going to have a—have fire drills.” Well, the big mucky mucks at Morgan Stanley said, “No, no, no, you’re just a crazy, paranoid Vietnam vet.” You know? And he climbed on the table and unfastened his belt and he says, “I’m going to moon everybody until you listen to me.” And they thought this guy is probably serious so they said, “Okay Rick, you calm down. Sit down—tell us what you think we ought to do.” And he told them that they would take the computer, clear everything—you know, have everybody that was there for Morgan Stanley check in and check out so they knew who was there in the building. And he said that, �you know, different floors had different places they were supposed to go to. And there would be security people that would check, you know with a clipboard, they’d take the thing off every half hour. And so, Morgan Stanley actually did practice that once where they went to other locations. The rest of the time, they’d just go to the doorways they were supposed to exit from. And you know, the security people would take charge so Morgan Stanley didn’t shut down for real long periods of time other than that one fire drill. (01:48:38) Veteran: And anyway, when the plane hit the World Trade Center, the port authorities said, “Everybody, stay put. The fire department will tell which floor to evacuate and, you know, they will do a nice, orderly evacuation.” And Rescorla says, “No. this building is coming down. Everybody head for the stairwells. And you know, go to the fire drill procedure.” And it saved close to 2800 guys—or, 2800 people from Morgan Stanley. And— Interviewer: But he stayed behind? Veteran: He stayed behind. The last that anybody saw him that escaped, he was standing in a stairwell with his bullhorn, singing rather risqué Irish drinking songs as well as some patriotic songs like God Bless America over his bullhorn and telling everybody to keep moving. And they don’t know for sure exactly where he was when the building came down but he didn’t survive that. He was later put on for—put in for the Presidential Medal of Freedom. A couple guys that actually circulated petitions. One of them was General Hal Moore and another one was the guy that played Hal Moore during the movie, We Were Soldiers, Mel Gibson. (01:50:12) Veteran: And everybody thought that maybe he might get the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Well, anyway port authority, among others, kind of tried putting a monkey wrench in everything because he had been right when port authority and the Department of Home Defense had been �wrong and that, you know, yeah next time it will probably be an airplane and you know, we got to have an evacuation plan in order. Well, Morgan Stanley was the only one that really did and he saved most of the employees of Morgan Stanley but the fact that he had been right and they had been wrong…They started a campaign against that and I understand he never did get the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Interviewer: Alright. We’ve got about 12 minutes left of this tape and I would like to have— Veteran: Okay, you go ahead and take other questions, right? Interviewer: Yeah. Basically, once you got home, what did you do? Veteran: First thing I did was I wanted to do something that was positive so I kind of thought a little bit about going back over there as a pacification officer but I immediately got back into ski patrol, which was a search and rescue type of thing. And actually, got in my 12-day minimum during 1968 in March. And so, I was credited with that year and then I had to take a review first aid class in spite of the fact I had been doing medic stuff but some of the stuff there didn’t fit the, you know, the rules on what first aiders were allowed to do. So anyway, I got upgraded on first aid and did that. I spent some volunteer time with [?] County search and rescue and [?] County search and rescue on some rescue things there. I took up mountain climbing and backpacking in the mountains because of the sense of adventure, you know. You got to have some things that kind of put your mind on edge but they have to be politically acceptable and hopefully something that is not going to get you killed. Now, that’s part of the reason that some of the Vietnam vets got these high-powered helicopters or high-powered motorcycles and died shortly after they got �back from Vietnam. They tried getting this sense of adventure out of this and died as a result. (01:52:49) Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And… Interviewer: Did you wind up going to college? Veteran: I did go to college. I did some time in community college here then went to Western Michigan University where I got my Bachelor’s degree. Then got a Master’s degree in library science and AV media. That was mostly through Western Michigan and University of Michigan extension office in Grand Rapids. And then after I got the Master’s degree there, I started working on a Master’s degree in history and I took some classes from Western and some from Grand Valley State University, which resulted in that paper that I mentioned: The la Drang: Almost Forgotten. That was a paper I wrote for one of those classes. And the battalion commander—or, the instructor said, “You can’t find enough information to write a paper on that.” I knew the stuff had just been de-classified, I just had to find out where it was and I’d, you know, start it from there. Some of it I got the papers, some of it, you know, I was still waiting for it from National Archives from the time I finally wrote the paper. And then that information got passed on to Hal Moore and JD Coleman. They both wrote books dealing with the la Drang campaign. So… (01:54:19) Interviewer: Now, you are taking these to Greece. Do you have a job at this point? Or…? Veteran: Yeah, I taught for Muskegon Public Schools starting in 1972. And taught for them for 35 years. Part of the time I taught 5th and 6th grade. I was in elementary libraries for a while and �the last 20 years as head of libraries and the media center at Steele School where I did actually get a chance to create a video on a project the school was doing on environmental improvement of the creek that was behind Steele School. That was the—one of the two things that I—well actually, the only thing I did—with video that was actually part of my AV media Master’s degree. I did a slide tape dissolve program on commercial fishing in the Great Lakes which won some awards. Frank Friel turned it in at Western Michigan University for me. And it did pick up a couple awards for outstanding slide tape dissolve program for AV program. And it only got used a few times for Muskegon Public Schools and then something happened to their spindle soft page dissolve control and there was no longer the equipment that it took to run it. But…so…. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had also gotten yourself involved with veterans’ groups of different sorts. Veteran: Yeah. Let’s see, in—oh, it must have been about 1982, I started helping psychiatrists and psychologists with the rat groups. (01:56:25) Veteran: You know, I would turn Vietnam speak into something they can understand. And you know, so I did that quite a bit. I actually probably did it for somewhere around 10 years and I got to know a lot of the vets around Muskegon county. With that, I get thank yous from some of them and some will come up and ask me questions. You know, even years afterwards, I had one that was out for dinner just a week or two ago. And he was one that used to walk around the house at night with a loaded AR-15. But he doesn’t do that anymore according to his wife but he’s still more than a wee bit paranoid. And you can see it in his eyes. But he has not done anything thoroughly bizarre. He’s functioning, still feeling kind of bitter about some stuff but he’s getting by okay, which one of the things was that I had when I was helping run Grant’s �group was this sign on the wall: ‘Vietnam changed me but I don’t live there anymore.’ And that was…Yep. Vietnam War changed our perspective on outlooks, on what life was going to be afterwards. But you know, you can’t carry on like you still live there because it’s totally unacceptable. Hal Mooreat least told a story about that. He was a psychiatrist who had been in World War 2. And he said, “Yeah, you know when you are invited for a dinner?” He says, “That’s not the time to talk about…You know, in the Ardennes when you’ve been walking pretty hard and you were tired, looking for places to sit down.” He says, “That’s not—you know at the dinner party, that’s not the time to be talking about stacking up these 3 German bodies and sitting on them and opening up your rations to eat.” He says, “That’s the last time you’ll be invited to a dinner party at that house.” He said, “There are certain things that you just have to be careful of. The rest of the world doesn’t understand what we did in Vietnam.” (01:58:52) Veteran: Or anybody did in any war. And he said, “You have to kind of pick things that you say and do that are socially acceptable.” And you know, that’s what I talked to the other vets too. Interviewer: Did you have to learn that yourself? Veteran: Well actually, I had been told some of those things by Fred Rice who had been a World War 2 vet. And you know, it was one of those things that a couple times when I was starting to get really hostile and mad, I’d cool it—you can’t do that kind of stuff now. And a couple times, had first aid situations. Okay, that’s considered practicing medicine without a license. You know, you could get sued for that. Do not do that for the first aid thing. And you know, there were times I had to kind of restrain what I was doing. You know, like…You know, student has got a gun. Well yeah, but you can’t go ahead and grab him by the throat and kill him right there. You know, that’s…And I did have one billing principal that there was guy that had actually been �kicked out of the Heights and the principal and I had walked him down. He was threatening to kill some student at the school. (02:00:26) Veteran: We walked him into the office and I let go of him. And this guy pushed me from the back, right into the corner of a file cabinet. And it broke two ribs. But I mean I kind of put the pain of ribs out of my mind and both hands went around his neck and lifted him up off the floor. And the billing principal said, “Glenn, you’ve got to let go of him.” And you know, it was yeah okay. Interviewer: So, you had some conditioned responses that still worked. Veteran: Yeah. There were some things that, you know, if I saw my life or a threat to my health by somebody, you know, it was—yeah, I’d go ahead and grabbed the guy around the neck. And then there was another time a kid came in and started hitting me in the chest and I had the idea about reaching out throwing him to the floor and falling on him was there but I knew I couldn’t do that, you know. I was going to get in trouble for, you know, what if I dropped on him with both knees in the middle of his chest, it’d probably break a whole bunch of ribs and maybe puncture a lung and put him in bad shape and that was not really what I could do in spite of the fact the guy is slamming the heels of his hands into my chest saying, “Old man, I am going to make you have a heart attack.” And you know…But yeah, there were some things you had to just kind of put back. You know, no I cannot let emotions and anger take charge right now. I’ve got to handle this as a totally rational school teacher or whatever I happened to be doing at the time. (02:02:12) Interviewer: Alright. �Veteran: And… Interviewer: This tape is now about done. I think I will close out here and say you’ve got really a remarkable memory for this stuff and you reflect on it in ways I think people are really going to appreciate as they watch the story. So, thank you very much for sharing the story. Veteran: Well, thank you. And like I said, I am still trying to work a little bit with vets, including this one that mentioned about having the anger problems. And I said, “We will get together with salmon chowder at a park and have supper out there and talk about it sometime, you know, when there’s not other people around. So… Interviewer: Alright. Very good. (02:02:50) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SheathelmG2270V3 Title A name given to the resource Sheathelm, Glenn (3 of 3, Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-08-08 Description An account of the resource Glenn Sheathelm was born in Muskegon, Michigan, in 1946. Enlisting in the Army in 1965, he joins the Army Artillery and undergoes Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and AIT at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before being deployed to Nuremberg, Germany. He is then redeployed to Vietnam where he served with the Fire Direction Control and S2 Military Intelligence sections of the First Cavalry Division until after the Tet Offensive in January of 1968. He sees combat while on patrol, during rescue missions, during Air Assaults, and during the Second Battle of Tam Quan when he receives several minor wounds and is sent to the rear for treatment in the final days of his deployment. He then returns to the United States in February of 1968 where he attends the Western Michigan and Grand Valley State Universities for masters' degrees in library sciences, literary media, and history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheathelm, Glenn H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/50d68415c30a8b24a6603493eb883684.pdf d43d5e882eb8d73cd837cfaf35e6b56f PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. George Shelby Interviewed on September 14, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tapes #3, 4 Biographical Information George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 5 December 1878, the son of William Read Shelby and Mary Kennedy Cass. In 1903 George was married to Ann Miller about 1903. George died 31 August 1975 in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids at the age of 96. Ann Miller was born in November 1882 in Grand Rapids. She was the daughter of John Miller and Martha Nicholson. Ann died 26 April 1941 in Grand Rapids and both George and Ann are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. The father, William Read Shelby was born 4 December 1842 in Lincoln County, Kentucky and died at his home at 65 Lafayette NE 14 November 1930. The mother of George was Mary Kennedy Cass, born in Brownsville, Pennsylvania on 22 March 1847. She married William Shelby on 16 June 1869 in St. Stephen’s Church, Sewickley, Pennsylvania. Mary died in Grand Rapids on 3 May 1936. _____________ Interviewer: How long have you lived in Grand Rapids, Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Well, with the exception of about twenty years in California, I was near Fresno where I had an orange grove with oranges, figs and so forth. I had money saved up and there was an enterprise in Santa Fe for officers preparing for the retirement days, don’t you know. I had the several thousand dollars on hand and I bought the land, and there was a colony [Annandale?], that was named after my wife, and so I moved to California in about, between nineteen….I can’t remember the exact date either, I lived out there about twenty-five years, and left there about nineteen forty, came back to Grand Rapids and sold the ranch, and put my wife in a sanitarium, because the nurses were so kind. Twenty years before she might have died, in nineteen forty. Interviewer: So before nineteen… you were in California for about twenty-five years, so that means you left Grand Rapids somewhere around nineteen fifteen. Mr. Shelby: Well, a little later, nineteen twenty-four I think I left then, so the period would be from about nineteen five to nineteen twenty-four. I was trying to develop this orange grove, Allendale colony. Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: Yes, yes, I was born on Fountain Street, the house up on the hill, you know. �2 Interviewer: What’s the address of that house, do you know? Is that house still standing? Mr. Shelby: Yes, oh yes it is. Last occupied by Mrs. Booth. Elizabeth Booth. Because it had many owners in the meantime after we sold it and we moved along to Lafayette—sixty-five North Lafayette. Interviewer: Was your father William Shelby? Mr. Shelby: William R. Shelby, yeah. Interviewer: He was involved in railroads, wasn’t he? Mr. Shelby: He was the vice-president-treasurer of the Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad Interviewer: What was the Grand Rapids-Indiana railroad ? Mr. Shelby: It was part of the Michigan Lines of the Pennsylvania Railroad, extending from Richmond, Indiana to Mackinac Island, about six hundred miles. Interviewer: Did your father, how did your father happen to come to Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: Well, he moved from Kentucky up to Pittsburgh and then married my mother in Sewickley, Pennsylvania. My grandfather George W. Cass, who was vice president of the lines west of Pittsburg, sent him out here to be the head of the G.R. and I Railway, that’s Grand Rapids-Indiana. And as a boy I was sent out to St. Paul’s which I just went out to this reunion, my seventy-fifth reunion, and I was leading the procession there. Interviewer: Are you the only one left from that class? Mr. Shelby: No, there are two others, but they are incapacitated. Interviewer: That’s quite a photo. Mr. Shelby: Well, here’s a little bit better one. This came the other day, yes. Interviewer: Oh, yes, class from ninety-six—eighteen ninety-six. Grand Rapids go away to school? Did many young men in Mr. Shelby: No, it was rather unusual. Let’s see there, well, there were three or four other Grand Rapids boys sent to that school: Fred Gorham and Edward Boise, Dr. Boise’s son, he attended it, too, St. Paul’s in Concord, New Hampshire. It’s a very famous Episcopal school, a hundred and fifteen years old this year. Interviewer: Did your family build what is known as the Booth house? �3 Mr. Shelby: Yes, my grandfather bought those three lots; one on Fountain, and one on the corner of Lafayette and Fountain and next to it, the three of them. We moved from that one on Fountain Street to Lafayette see. Interviewer: Was that your Grandfather Cass? Mr. Shelby: Yes, my Grandfather George W. Cass, yes. Interviewer: Was he any relation to Lewis Cass? Mr. Shelby: Yes, cousin, I think. Interviewer: What was it like growing up in Grand Rapids, when you grew up here? Mr. Shelby: Well, it was, it was really interesting in politics in those days. The cities used to have those torch-light processions that formed, you know, people turned their coats inside out and marched under a banner, you know, screaming out the candidates’ names, and they used to circulate around the neighborhood leading this torch-light procession yelling out ”Uhl, Uhl, Uhl, E.F. Uhl [Edward F. Uhl]; Shelby, Shelby, W.R. Shelby:” And we youngsters all marched in those processions; the banner and then the torch-light processions were quite characteristic of politics in those days. Interviewer: Where would the processions take place? Mr. Shelby: Well, in the residential districts. The candidates, like Mr. Ford, there was a fellow named [Melborne] Ford at that time, was the candidate for Congress I guess or something of that sort. There was quite a high feeling amongst the Democrats. We were Democrats in those days, whatever they stood for. Interviewer: There weren’t many of those around, were there? Mr.Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: There weren’t very many of those around here, were there, Democrats? Mr. Shelby: Yes, they was pretty active here. And in the winter time, of course, Fountain Street was a great street for sliding. Every night in the winter why, it was black with people just sliding down the hill. Bobs [bobsleds] thirty feet long, you know, and single sleds was riding right along right in front of us. Naturally I was amongst all the other youths that enjoyed that pleasure. The only trouble was we were, was for the hacks [cabs] that we used to get in our way a little. Interviewer: Wouldn’t [they] close the hill off for traffic then? Mr. Shelby: Yes, and on holidays especially. On Christmas and New Years, Bridge Street was the steepest street, that was closed off, policed. The city was young, you know, compared to what it is now, and very compact. I think the city, you might say, as far as residents were �4 concerned, ended about Union Avenue, Union Street, you know. Beyond that began the scattered homes and so on -- the country. Grand Rapids at that time was about sixty thousand people, and you were really outside of the town then after six or seven blocks going east from Lafayette, you began to get into country, don’t you know. Interviewer: What was out there? Mr. Shelby: Oh, just occasional farms, and residences, things of that sort, brickworks. The brickyard used to be quite a notable setting out there around Bridge Street and Fountain Street. That was one of the big brick yards of the city. Interviewer: Were there many brickyards in the city at that time? Mr. Shelby: Oh, just two or three. Interviewer: That brickyard was out on Fountain Street, beyond Union. Mr. Shelby: Well, Bridge Street. Interviewer: Now, that would be on the west side of town then? Mr. Shelby: No, it would be east side of town. Interviewer: The only Bridge Street that I know in town is the one on west side, was there another one? Mr. Shelby: Well, there’s East Bridge and West Bridge, of course, the river divides the thing. Interviewer: Then that would be where Michigan Street is today? Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right, that’s right. Interviewer: What were the neighborhoods like at that time in terms of social relationships? Mr. Shelby: Well, there was pretty much the center, the finest part of the town I’d call it that, the Hill District. Interviewer: Did the families have a lot of interactions together? Mr. Shelby: Oh, to a certain degree, they were members of the same club, like the President’s Club, you know or one thing, the Kent Country Club, and we were owners of that, stock in that, you know, that was the, you know where it is now, the Kent Country Club. It was a private club, membership club. We had interest in stock, interest in it at that time, don’t you know, used to entertain out there a good deal. Interviewer: That’s where most of the socializing went on then? �5 Mr. Shelby: Well, a large, largely although there was frequently amongst St. Mark’s church was a center of many occasions at our home. my father was a vestryman in St. Mark’s church, during those many years and quite a few occasions were held in our home, don’t you know gatherings two or three hundred people. Interviewer: Two or three hundred? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, Jandorf used to do all the catering in town, you know. Interviewer: What was the name of the company? Mr. Shelby: Jandorf, he was a caterer, you know, provided the food. He took and moved into a home with his staff and prepared all the food for the groups. Interviewer: Using your kitchen then? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes. Interviewer: How long would he stay? Mr.Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: How long would he stay? Mr. Shelby: How long what? Interviewer:How long would Jandorf stay? He moved into the home? Mr. Shelby: Well, his location on Monroe Street, but he would just move in for those occasions, and provide all the food for the house he took over, don’t you know. It would be too much for a hired cook and others. Interviewer: How many people would he have on hand for an occasion like that? Mr. Shelby: Well, he had maybe ten or twelve people, cooks and waitresses for the meals, and then they help with everything else. Interviewer: Was there any dancing at those affairs? Mr. Shelby: Not particularly, I don’t know, no there wasn’t any dancing. Interviewer: Not at the church affairs? Mr. Shelby: No, it wasn’t frowned upon, but there wasn’t any occasion for it, mostly chattering and visiting. Interviewer: What affect did the automobile have on society, when the automobile came out? �6 Mr. Shelby: Very pronounced, very pronounced, I think it scattered people for one thing. They began to have homes and places other than, you know, cottages to go to, homes at the lake, resorts. It had a very pronounced affect. Not everybody owned cars, you know. Interviewer: Do you remember when you saw your first car? Mr. Shelby: Well, it started during that period and, say nineteen fifteen, twenty, around that, and then it kept growing in numbers when people bought cars, you know. It had a very pronounced effect in every way. People circulated a lot more than they did by streetcar. That’s all they had was streetcars then, in those days. They ended it pretty much ended at the, well going north, ended at Sweet Street and then took a dummy from that point and, you go out on the streetcar to Sweet Street and then the dummy carried you to North Park where the street railway had a building, you know, resort for dancing and parties, and everything else. It was the same way at Reed’s Lake. You took— on Eastern Avenue, you went to this corral and got aboard the dummy, and you went two miles out to Reed’s Lake. That time they had a lot of the pavilions you know and entertainment, picnics, very simple compared with the way it is now. Beer gardens also, which they frowned upon. Interviewer: Why? Mr. Shelby: Well, personally I never liked beer, I liked wine. But anyways we suppose to be, it was supposed to be looked as a scandal, to be seen over in that beer garden. Interviewer: The one at Ramona Park? Mr.Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: The one at Ramona Park? Mr. Shelby: Yes, that was quite a big one in those days. The more sportier elements in the town patronized that. But that was a swamp, the entertainment was largely professional at Reed’s Lake, don’t you know the troupes were brought in and entertainers. So, if you had the time and the leisure, the desire, well you went to Reed’s Lake. It played a very important part in the life of the town, and for leisure moments, you know. Interviewer: The people that lived up on Lafayette and Fountain and that area around where your family lived were they mostly professional men? Mr. Shelby: Well, they were largely heads of businesses. There was Mr. Perkins, Gaius Perkins, the head of the School Furniture Company, they called it at that time. He was living on the corner of Fountain and Lafayette and then they were all prominent people, prominent in the city, lawyers, and doctors and railroad officials. It was fairly compact you might say. So we might say that it set it apart from the balance of the city. That was the fine homes were built within that area. Interviewer: Do you remember the construction of your home on Fountain Street? �7 Mr. Shelby: Well, just dimly, but I remember playing around it, yes. Interviewer: built better? How about the home, perhaps you could remember the home on Lafayette you Mr. Shelby: The what? Interviewer: The home on Lafayette. Mr. Shelby: Sixty-five Lafayette? Interviewer: Could you tell me a little about, how were homes constructed in those days? Mr. Shelby: Well, bricklayers were the great builders of homes in those days. Large, all brick homes, they’re very spacious and space, space was some families were fairly large with five or six children, don’t you know, and they wanted big homes, which they had. Lafayette Avenue is three stories and an attic, which children used to play on that, fourteen feet high, the attic you know, until it was finished off and then we’d made it into entertainment for dancing, you know, and you give parties. Of course at that time there were about two professional dancing schools, which we children were sent to, you know, Gage and Benedict, as I remember the names. I learned to dance at those places, along with the other bluebloods. Interviewer: What kind of dancing was there? Mr. Shelby: Waltz and waltzes and round dancing, do-si-do and you know, those figures I would think in color. When you, Mr. Gage and Mrs. Benedict were the two teachers, one was a little runt and the other was a tall woman and they wore costumes. And that, I think Saturday as a rule was the weekend was the occasion for going to the dancing school, you know. Interviewer: Saturday afternoon? Mr. Shelby: Yes, Saturday afternoon. Interviewer: Did most of the children of the prominent people living in the area go to the school? Mr. Shelby: That’s right. That’s right. Interviewer: Was the business, you’ve been involved in the business community all your life, is the business of that time, the pace of business and the…. Mr. Shelby: Well, furniture, furniture and railroads I think were the key main activities, so we had a half dozen of these very large factories making furniture, you know. Nelson-Matter was very famous throughout the country for fine furniture, and Century and Phoenix and half a dozen of them. School Furniture, the one I mentioned, you know Mr. Perkins is head of that. So that was one of the things that kept Grand Rapids growing at that time, the name Furniture City. We �8 had the skilled designers here, through those years, you know, and then we had the annual exhibitions, those people come later on from all over the United States and that was once a year. We were very much on the map. Interviewer: Have you seen any differences in the way businesses operated in that period compared to today? Mr. Shelby: Well, there’s more or less corporations now, the giant corporations. As a rule though they pretty much, there was the single city in making the furniture, and nothing but furniture. So we didn’t have very many metal plants here, I remember that, the metal business, there wasn’t much of that. Mostly furniture, wooden furniture, and we slaughtered all the timber from here to Mackinac over the years, you know. We wanted a freight with larger furniture. Heavy wood, you know. Grand Rapids was the furniture capitol of the United States at that time and later on, of course, Chicago took the wind out of our sails and built the buildings over there and then people instead of coming here, they went to Chicago. Interviewer: Do you think that one of the reasons for the furniture industry here was the accessibility of lumber? Mr. Shelby: The scarcity of lumber, well it gradually gave out. Interviewer: I mean, one of the reasons why the furniture industry developed here; was it because of the availability of lumber? Mr. Shelby: That would be the main reason, and then we had a large population of Dutch here that worked in the factories, you know mainly Dutch at those times; and they were skilled men and they were, that was their activity. We had almost, we had national fame, as well as you might say abroad, as the Furniture Capitol; the design and execution, production. Interviewer: Who were some of the lumber men? Mr. Shelby: Well, Gay was one, Widdicombe, John Widdicombe and Nelson-Matter they called them. They were very prominent, and later on other men came into Grand Rapids that weren’t necessarily Grand Rapids people, don’t you know. But it was the main industry for the town for many, many years. Interviewer: Did they ever bring logs down to the Grand River? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, there were log jams there at Leonard Street, and Bridge Street, that’s where a number of them. Baxter’s [history] will show that. Interviewer: Do you remember seeing any of them? Mr. Shelby: Yes, I do; they were very visible. Interviewer: What was it like? �9 Mr. Shelby: The river was just jammed with logs, and they spilled over the dams, you know. And, it was almost an annual affair, in the Grand River. Interviewer: Where would they take the logs out? Mr. Shelby: Well, up there where the Rowe Hotel is, there’d be, you know where that is. There was a big dam there, you know. You could see it from the top of our house, the whole river in front and everywhere, you know. West side was often under water, good share of the west side of the city. Interviewer: It was quite frequent then? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, I mean once a year, in the springtime. Interviewer: What could you see from the top of your house? How much of the city could you see? Mr. Shelby: Well, you couldn’t see too much to the east, but you could pretty well to the (wood pile?), I used to try and sneak and see Lake Michigan, but it wasn’t high enough, you know, you could look ten or fifteen miles. Oh yes. Interviewer: Do you think that a project like this is important; do you think it is valuable to go around and interview people that can remember those past days? Mr. Shelby: Well, I think that is a very interesting page in the history of the growth of the city, what causes it, what prevents it and where it reaches its summit, and then it sort of stagnates or goes downhill, you might say. Other types of this business come in like the metal, we didn’t have many metal industries as I remember, they decided to change over from wood to metal was gradual and persistent, and so we do have metal industries here of sizable proportion which we didn’t have in those days. Interviewer: Did many of the lumber barons and so on live in the Hill District? Mr. Shelby: Many of them? Most of them yes, yes, there was well along Fulton street and a where Mr. Blodgett lived on Cherry Street, yes, Cherry Street, Cherry and Madison, you know, and Widdicombe’s lived all along up on Fountain Street, just two blocks above us, you know. Interviewer: How did the lumber people, the lumber men, how did they manage to build their businesses? Mr. Shelby: Well, I’d say the distribution of the furniture you mean? Interviewer: No, how did they manage to get started and get concessions, for example, on land, for cutting timber? Mr. Shelby: I don’t remember other than, I couldn’t exactly describe how those started, except that the lumber was here, and building skill was here, the designers were here, and the money �10 was here, and so it became, it was a growth over the years, you know. It was the predominating industry of the city Interviewer: Why did the Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad come into being? Why would they have tracks extending from Richmond, Indiana, to the top of Michigan? Mr. Shelby: Well, that was because there was business to be carried, The Pennsylvania Railroad felt it thought that there were opportunities to develop and get bigger, incentive in itself, but they were here because it was a natural location for them, nature furnished that, and so they centered here, don’t you see, and until later on, of course, and then part of their tonnage was agriculture, as a farm produced different crops, lumber was the principle commodity for many years, heavy commodity, don’t you know. I think the railroad has pretty well dominated the city for many years, with furniture, what they carried. Interviewer: Then your father must have been quite an important man? Mr. Shelby: He was.-About the head of everything you could think of. He took a great interest in the development of the city, he was a member of the board of Public Works, and he used to ride around in a hack, asking questions you know, seeing how things were going, that was a month or twice a month, that would occur don’t you know in the summer’s duration. Undoubtedly, his activities were important to the city in that time. He was a director of the Old National Bank, the old hostel, well, I guess we were the biggest customer there at the bank, the National Bank, became the [Old] Kent later on. I have a very good copy of the paper of my father’s and mother’s, and so on and so forth, grandfather, up to the house. Haven’t got it here, but I don’t know whether that would be interesting or not, Grant Schultz takes care of it. Interviewer: I’d like to see it sometime. Mr. Shelby: Yes, well, it’s right there. Interviewer: Did you go away to college? Did you go away to school, to college? Mr. Shelby: Yes, I went to St. Paul’s School, it’s Prep School in Yale. Interviewer: Did some of the other families send their young men off to school? Mr. Shelby: Yes, they did. Interviewer: Where did they go to college? Mr. Shelby: Well, some to Ann Arbor. I had one brother that went to Ann Arbor, one brother’s at Lehigh, because he was an engineer, and I went to Yale, I was of no particular bent, myself, just classics and languages and general education, you know. Interviewer: Did you return to Grand Rapids after college? Mr. Shelby: I came back here, yes, �11 Interviewer: What business did you go into then? Mr. Shelby: In the railroad. I worked in the treasury department. I was made assistant treasurer, assistant to the treasurer or whatever you want to call it. I found the work in subsequent years a little tedious and I got interested in California. I had the money, and I needed the break. [Side 2] Interviewer: What was this investment house in town? That you worked for, was that located, did it have an office here in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: The what? Interviewer: That investment house? Mr. Shelby: Oh, no, they was national in Boston, New York, Chicago, those are the most prominent things… Interviewer: Well, where were you located with that company? Mr. Shelby: Here. Interviewer: In Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: Right. Interviewer: What happened to the company? Mr. Shelby: Well, I told you, Ivar Kreuger ruined the company by match-scandals… Interviewer: Could you tell me a little about that? What happened, and how it happened? Mr. Shelby: Well, it’s something, he committed suicide. He dealt on the New York-Chicago when this happened, there was panic in Chicago. I happened to go there that very night and there was panic throughout the exchanges when that occurred. Interviewer: What year was that? Mr. Shelby: It was in, I can’t be accurate about that, now. I’d have to look it up. Interviewer: Was panic the… Mr. Shelby: It was the stock exchange. It was, you know Ivar Kreuger. We’ve got plenty of sources that have written into that. Interviewer: What did, did that have an effect on Grand Rapids? �12 Mr. Shelby: Well, not exactly, no, I wouldn’t say that, although it did have an affect all over the United States, in the financial world. Quite a great affect. He was known as the Swedish match king. Interviewer: I’ve heard of him. Mr. Shelby: No, you don’t hear of them now, you know. I think ,as a matter of fact, I think one of his activities was making these, what do you call them, these university out east, you know, varsity-like these big football places and baseball places, you know. Interviewer: What do you mean stadiums? Mr. Shelby: Stadiums, yes. He was a brilliant, brilliant man in his day. That disaster ended him. It shattered a lot of people at that time. I was selling insurance stocks; someone came to me and thought I was a good material to sell insurance stocks, which I did. And then later when the Henry Higginson for Mr. Whitmer, was a prominent man in those days. You know I was associated with him and represented Henry Higginson. I made sales and often I would score in New York and so forth. Interviewer: What are some of the more memorable experiences of your youth in Grand Rapids? What are some of the things you remember most clearly? Mr. Shelby: Well, going to the circus was one of the things as a child, and the kind of got the city grew must have had one occasion when the city determined to pave Canal Street. Which was then nothing but dirt, you know. So Canal Street was paved, as a single operation, brand new to the city, don’t you know, and the whole town turned out at that time and went down and danced on Monroe Street, along Canal Street, they called it. Interviewer: What was it paved with? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: What was it paved with? Mr. Shelby: Pavement, you know, concrete. That was the first time that it ever had happened to the city? We had wooden sidewalks, you know on Monroe Street, wooden sidewalks. Concrete was just coming in, so they were gradually replaced. You know, right ahead on Monroe Street there was wooden sidewalks and one place I remember in particular the dairy there the milk was spilled over the sidewalks and the sun would make it stink, you know. Pretty loud smelling, so that, as the years went on that was the place for concrete. Interviewer: Why was the circus memorable? Mr. Shelby: Well, that was the chief public entertainment. Barnum & Bailey, and the half of a dozen of those, some local, but Barnum & Bailey was the big organization and that was that. We �13 also made a big deal over the Fourth of July that, we saved up our money and bought firecrackers and bombs, and pretty well turned the town upside down on the Fourth of July. Interviewer: How would the circus come to town in those days? Mr. Shelby: Well, they had their own wagons, the railroads transported them; they had them these big lots. There were several lots devoted to holding the circus, and of course in the morning what they would do is have a parade through the downtown section. Interviewer: Was that quite a big event? Mr. Shelby: Was for us; that was enormous. Interviewer: Circus Wagons… Mr. Shelby: Sounds rather primitive now to you, I guess, but it was for me entertainment then, for youngsters, you know, otherwise we made our own fun. Walking on stilts - I used to have stilts, with blocks that high, you know. The gang would go over on Saturday afternoon [and maybe along the D and M tracks,] go out and kill frogs; that was a big pursuit is frog legs. You see, it was all very simple. Interviewer: That sounds different to me, different age… Mr. Shelby: Sure. Interviewer: Do you think there was any one particular event that kind of ended that age? Mr. Shelby: No, it was gradual. I think one, I think later on the success of the movies they had a pronounced effect on people’s habits and thoughts and interests. Interviewer: How so? Mr. Shelby: Well, it was a new idea, don’t you know, in entertainment. Then theatres begun to be built, and people formed the habit of going to see these clever actors. The theatre was, the Powers’ Theatre of course was the fore runner of that and most prominent actors would come to Grand Rapids during the season and this is, we were all interested in that— good plays. That would be a cultural thing, I presume, you could call it that, entertainment. And then later on the movies, of course, was the enormous influence on people’s habits, because they were perfected and more enjoyable. Interviewer: Was opening night at the Powers’ Theatre, when a new act would come to town a big event? The opening night? Mr. Shelby: Well, I imagine yes, the actors did have an unusual prominence in those days in the entertainment field. It just wasn’t very much other than as a competitor, don’t you know? There was people interested in plays and their presentation and their skill and ability and entertainment �14 ability of the actors was very succeeding and greatness to be up there and play: All of us, if there was any interest at all. Interviewer: Did any actors come and visit you at your house? Mr. Shelby: No, no, we never had any. No, I wasn’t that intimate with them, but we were exceedingly interested in their playing and their ability. Interviewer: That’s a little different from today; almost everything in that way in entertainment is the movies? Mr. Shelby: Yes, it is vastly different. It was more of course, it was the only people in the upper brackets would sustain the theatre in those days, compared with today. It used to cost money to go to the theatre, don’t you know? And Powers’ Opera House was the very center, and they had a second-grade Redmond’s Grand Opera House on the corner of Monroe, and they were cheaper things, you know, these opera companies, they called themselves, just singing and acting, and that was during the summer, that was quite a feature of the city. And we had a very low-down place as you were, you weren’t supposed to look at… Interviewer: Where was that? Mr. Shelby: Smith’s, that was a block off of Monroe…you weren’t even supposed to glance that way. That was a, you know… Interviewer: Did you ever go there? Mr. Shelby: No. Interviewer: You never did? Mr. Shelby: No, I didn’t have the occasion to be ruined; never more than looked at it, I guess. Moving shipees they called them then. Of course the morals of the town then were pretty open, they were, oh, whole districts of houses you know, there was a, oh, lower part of the town now along the river, you know. Interviewer: Is that right? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, houses, public houses of prostitution. Interviewer: Were they tolerated by the police? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, there were a number of them, you know, yup, that’s where they got rid of their excess energy. Interviewer: That’s interesting. �15 Mr. Shelby: It was unmentionable part of the town, don’t you know? The characteristic of all the countries at that time. Interviewer: You know, you never read that in history books? Mr. Shelby: No, you…. Interviewer: Baxter never mentioned it. Mr. Shelby: No, no I guess that’s one of the things they ignore. As refinement came about that was put to one side. Interviewer: How do you mean refinement? Mr. Shelby: Well. I mean refinement in place, in the public; rough and ready stuff was all out; people became more cultured, more choosy. They weren’t necessarily aristocrats, but they were supposed to be a cut above the common herd. Interviewer: What caused that, what would cause the change in…? Mr. Shelby: Attitude of the public? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: Oh, I don’t know, just a gradual interest in better things of life, more enduring things, less animalism, more intellectual pleasures, so on and so forth. Things that wouldn’t interest you anymore because they were too rough and ready, and too crude. It was the growth of refinement, which was common in America. It was changing; things that were once very popular gradually lose their force. Other things were adopted, people generally had broader life. They began to circulate more and form more interest in sports, you might say, tennis, and golf later. I remember the whole growth of golf, when it first came here I remember Yale, a very famous Scotsman came over and we watched his performance and then on why the growth of golf kept growing and growing. I never took it up, I don’t care for it myself, I liked tennis. But it did, it became a sport that was adopted from Scotland, wasn’t it? But baseball of course was and it still is the chief passion of American sport’s world. Baseball, football. Interviewer: Was there any tennis clubs here in town where you could play? Mr. Shelby: Yes, quite a number of them. Interviewer: Were there? Mr. Shelby: There was a Cardinal Mark with a basketball. Interviewer: Where was some of those Clubs located? �16 Mr. Shelby: Well, let’s see there, up there around the Hollister family had several courts up there they allowed you to used by those who played tennis and elsewhere, like the Kent Country Club offered them. Other Clubs…. Interviewer: Where did the Hollisters live? Mr. Shelby: Where did the Hollisters live? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: Up on, between Fountain and Fulton, they were very prominent people here. Head of the bank, head of the Old National Bank, and leaders in Grand Rapids, the Hollister family. Interviewer: Well, I think that’s enough. If I think of anything else I’ll come down and talk to you again alright? Mr. Shelby: Alright [PAUSES THEN CONTINUES] Mr. Shelby: But I was born in the Booth house on Fountain Street, that’s where I was born, well, that was my grandpa that bought these three lots and then my father built the one on Lafayette and Mr. Wallen, my uncle built the one on Fountain and Lafayette. The Booth house it was later occupied by a number of different people over the years, five or six, would you believe. In fact it was the Saints Rest Club that one time when bachelors, five or six prominent men lived there in the house on Fountain Street, many years after we sold it. It had a ballroom, you know, a beautiful ballroom upstairs, it’s just as substantial as the day it was built. Interviewer: That’s the house on Lafayette? Mr. Shelby: All of them Interviewer: All three. Mr. Shelby: The same characteristics. Interviewer: Why did you sell the homes? Mr. Shelby: Why did I sell them? I had to settle the estate. Unfortunately, there was no price for real estate at that time. I only got five thousand dollars and I was asking seventy thousand for it. Interviewer: When was it that you had settled the estate? Mr. Shelby: Oh, gosh, I don’t know, I’d have to look it up. Interviewer: One of those houses has three apartments out of your one bedroom? You got it partitioned into three different rooms? �17 Mr. Shelby: No, it was one room, my bedroom. Interviewer: And what’s it like today? Mr. Shelby: What? Interviewer: What’s it like today? They partitioned your bedroom? Mr. Shelby: Yes Interviewer: They made three rooms out of your one room. Mr. Shelby: That’s right, well three pretty big rooms though. Well, for instance, from the end of the dining room to the end of the library was about eighty feet, down on the first floor cause the dining room was about thirty-five feet long, the library, the living room was equal with that, then the hall there in front was very big, that; then the maid’s room off of that, the dining room. A big house; big. Mr. Shelby: Where did you want to put this stuff? Interviewer: Well, what we’re thinking of… [END OF TAPE] INDEX B G Barnum & Bailey · 12 Benedict, Mrs. · 7 Blodgett, Mr. · 9 Boise, Dr. · 2 Boise, Edward · 2 Booth · 2 Booth, Mrs. · 2 Gage and Benedict · 7 Gage, Mr. · 7 Gay, Mr. · 8 Gorham, Fred · 2 Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad · 2, 10 H C Hollister family · 16 Cass, George W. · 2, 3 Cass, Lewis · 3 Century Furniture Company · 7 J Jandorf · 5 F Ford, Melborne · 3 K Kent Country Club · 4, 16 �18 Kreuger, Ivar · 11 N Redmond’s Grand Opera House · 14 Rowe Hotel · 9 S Nelson-Matter · 7, 8 Old Kent Bank · 10 Old National Bank · 10, 16 Saints Rest Club · 16 School Furniture Company · 6, 7 Schultz, Grant · 10 Shelby, W.R. · 3 Shelby, William R. · 2 St. Mark’s church · 5 P U Pennsylvania Railroad · 2, 10 Perkins, Gaius · 6 Perkins, Mr. · 7 Phoenix Furniture Company · 7 Powers’ Opera House · 14 Powers’ Theatre · 13 President’s Club · 4 Uhl, Edward F. · 3 O R Ramona Park · 6 W Wallen, Mr. · 16 Whitmer, Mr. · 12 Widdicombe family · 9 Widdicombe, John · 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ff6713a3f6b8a6e44bb3fe13f1fd634c.mp3 27dd93a856f48df8c36d29ea00efebca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_3-4Shelby Title A name given to the resource Shelby, George (1 of 2) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shelby, George Description An account of the resource George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on December 5, 1878. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives