816 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6280f583b738fae1230bb313ff130d2d.mp4 418d3fc5143c4d79fd384dc7372bc2fe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d50d2157826ec344fab44e14ae72f0bb.pdf fc8fb0ffd1e889c8048f5a4c341a77d5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II, Korean War, Lebanese Conflict, Vietnam War William Schrader Length of interview: (01:58:00) Background Information: (00:00:33)  Born in Alpena, Michigan, on October 19, 1929  Moved to Chelsea, Michigan where he grew up  Father worked in a factory  Went in the army and got a GED in the army  Followed the war news o Was waiting in line for a movie when he heard about Pearl Harbor (00:01:59) o Remembers a sign that had all the names of those who went into the service and those who perished had a star behind their name (00:03:02)  During the war, his mother worked in a factory  At the time (12 years) he did not believe the war would go on long enough for him to serve  Entered the Army July 31, 1948 o Wanted to join the Navy, but the Navy would not take him because his teeth were too bad. The Army did take him, and provided him with dental work (00:04:36) Training: (00:05:00)  Underwent basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky o Very warm weather o Basic training was “a wake-up call”  A lot of fear was used by the leadership o Very structured, and learned very fast because “you did not make the same mistake twice” o Remembers going to the Mammoth Cave o Adjusted very well to military life  It was educational to meet so many new people  Wanted initially to just get off the family farm  Did not have too much trouble with the physical aspect of training  Trained with weapons at this time as well o Training lasted around 8-12 weeks  planned to go to engineer school  was sent to Germany straight out of basic training  went home on leave before being sent to Germany  Went to New York, took 13 days to get to Germany o Slept in the hold of the ship o Got to be on deck a few hours in the morning and evening o The weather was wet and rainy during November, but the seas were not rough o Integration of the army happened before Schrader went to Germany �Germany: (00:10:50)  Arrived in Germany and was assigned to the 26th Infantry Regiment stationed in Bamberg, Germany o Commander was Colonel Samuel T. Williams, “Hanging Sam”  The regiment was in charge at the Nuremburg Trials of hanging the criminals o Was in a rifle company in a rifle squad o Describes the living conditions in Germany (00:12:05)  The buildings were bombed out  The people were desperate  not many middle aged men, mostly women, children and the elderly  Remembers that the leaders were veteran, very well trained men who had fought in North Africa and with the Big Red One in Normandy o The new recruits were trained very well as to not make mistakes that could kill your comrades  Everything was still under martial law in Germany (00:15:55)  Schrader was still in Germany at the beginning of the Korean War. o Rumors about the 1st Infantry Division being airlifted to Korea because they were the best trained division at that time o Instead, were split into A and B groups, one would be sent over, the other would be sent back to the United States to train a new division  Remembers a lot of promotions being made at the time  There were concerns about the Russians during these early stages of the Cold War  Remembers that the division was very strict o Tardiness did not happen, no slack was given to anyone  Schrader decided with a few of his friends after his service was extended by President Truman to re-enlist and volunteer to go to Korea “where the action was” (00:20:00) o 90 days later, Schrader is in Korea Korean War: (00:20:59)  Went to Korea in 1952 o Went home on leave for 60 days, then reported to a base in California was processed there and shipped off to Japan en route to Korea o Arrived in Inchon, Korea  Remembers Seoul being bombed out o Was with the 9th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division  There was no core of members, there was a constant turnover of soldiers o Was a Sergeant 1st class at the time, made Master Sergeant very quickly o Was in command of a rifle platoon of 30-35 people o The turnover was near constant  Describes an “Abraham Lincoln” bunker (00:25:12) o had logs on top  Remembers much of war had dissolved into trench warfare  Talks about ambush tactics in a story (00:28:25) o evolves into a story about the worst battle he was in o was awarded the silver star �       o was hit by shrapnel, a very minor wound When the armistice was signed he was back home Was wounded twice while in Korea (00:39:22) o Both times were by shrapnel, both were minor wounds He was always on the front lines during the Korean War R&R was spent in Japan (00:41:21) Recalls a man who committed suicide o shot himself with a pistol outside the bunker o the constant turnover meant he never got to know anyone really well In Korea the units did not stay together as they had in WWII o Schrader remembers having different men switching in and out of the units as being disastrous. o Was thankful that he was trained by WWII soldiers Talks about how much care packages and letters from home meant to the soldiers (00:48:12) After Korea: (00:49:00)  When Schrader came back from Korea, he was assigned to the 44th Infantry Division at Fort Lewis. (00:49:09) o He went to Alaska and underwent cold-weather training and maneuvers. o This was during the Cold War, he was a 1st Sergeant at age 23, but was unhappy o Went to school down in Georgia, to become an officer, and found out about the Airborne. Went to Kentucky for jump school o After Jump school in Kentucky, Schrader went back to Germany, but got married before he left for Germany Germany and Lebanon: (00:51:02)  Went to Germany on a troop ship with his wife. o The wives went on a train separate from their husbands to live in government housing o Stayed in Germany for about 3 years o 11th Airborne division  During the Lebanese Crisis, they were called in on alert—and left for Lebanon, saying that he would be back in a day or two, but were there 113 days, never losing a man in a firefight. o The men they lost were to the undertow in the ocean.  Schrader’s unit was originally supposed to defend Lebanese borders. o The military looked after the families left behind in Germany a little, but the women mainly depended on each other in case of the Cold War breaking into total war. (00:57:18)  Besides Lebanon, his unit jumped into France a few times.  Remembers being treated well by the Germans, and felt appreciated by the citizens.  Schrader remembers wanting to change his branch and joined the Special Forces o went through training in guerilla warfare and counter-insurgency, etc. (01:02:10) �        o 12 men on the Special Forces teams o Had 13 years when he joined the Special Forces in 1961. (01:03:30) Around the time of Bay of Pigs the Green Beret was authorized by President Kennedy Schrader’s unit went to Laos in 1961-62 before the beginning of the Vietnam War in 1965 (01:04:30) Talks about creating a military force out of Laotian villagers to defend themselves against the communists Remembers the culture and a pair of British missionaries in Laos (01:10:12) Left Laos in 1962 or 1963, and went to Iran before going to Vietnam in 1965 In Iran, the Shah wanted forces trained like the Laotians. (01:16:45) o Talks about the terrain of Iran, how they received water and food o Talks about being captured by the Iranian army while training recruits for the Shah’s forces. o Had contact with the Kurds, although not very often (01:22:18) After Iran, Schrader returned to the United States until the Vietnam War began Schrader remembers that he was going through Special Forces training when President Kennedy was assassinated. o The assassination news did not interrupt the training, but there was a lot of silence on their part because he created the Green Berets and endorsed the special forces. (01:27:08) Vietnam War: (01:28:00)  Went in as Special Ops and performed cross-border operations o Discusses exactly what these entailed (01:28:33) o Was not operating under uniform, but flied a lot of helicopters  Stayed at arm’s length so that they could not be associated with any war-crimes the South Vietnamese committed with the information Special Forces provided to them  They did none of the recruiting, the recruits were sent to them o Spent a year in Vietnam with that program. (01:35:10) o Went home to the United States  Returned to Vietnam in 1969 o To advise a Vietnamese rifle squad o PRU was a unit similar to what he did in Laos, and was recommended to join, so he did (01:36:45) o Trained guerrillas; did not go on all of the operations with the guerillas.  Describes the people he helped train (01:42:30) o Shared some time with the people, got to know them a little o The soldiers were very well trained, some used to serve the North Vietnamese  Shares a story about some of the soldiers (01:44:28)  Between his two tours, Schrader went to Iran and spent time advising the Michigan National Guard o Schrader remembers the trouble made about him being in the military while being in Grand Rapids. o Was in Michigan for about a year. o Describes his casualty reporting duties while in Michigan  Talks about the progress and balance of power while he was in Vietnam (01:52:11) �o Talks about Vietnam in relation to the current Afghanistan and Iraq war.\  Interview ends (01:58:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchraderW Title A name given to the resource Schrader, William (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schrader, William Description An account of the resource William Schrader was born in Alpena, Michigan on October 19, 1929. He entered the Army on July 31, 1948, and served in Germany near the end of World War II. After WWII, Schrader went to Korea and served in the Korean War. After Korea, Schrader switched from Infantry to Airborne. After joining the Airborne, Schrader married and he and his wife went back to Germany. Schrader spent 113 days in Lebanon during the Lebanese Crisis, and afterwards, went back to the United States and joined the Special Forces, eventually becoming a Green Beret. In 1962, Schrader left and trained guerillas in both Laos and Iran before going to Vietnam in 1965. Schrader left Vietnam and served in the United States for several years before returning to Vietnam in 1969, where he again trained Vietnamese forces. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a0588aa01253fbd825b80a8a4dfabde.pdf 3f2b92911f46104083d34ba98c1503ed PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-9692-8 Title A name given to the resource Faust. Photograph of Pvt. Daniel Faust Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1864 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schriver & Kibler Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 United States. Army United States. Army. Pennsylvania Infantry Regiment, 95th (1861-1865) Harrisburg (Pa.) Description An account of the resource Cabinet photo of Pvt. Daniel Faust. Faust was an infantryman in Pennsylvania's 95th and 96th Infantry regiments. Family correspondence in separate record. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab478d74cdae44e3f6dbba91983740d8.mp4 d223c4dccfdc9712df8682f93d9c8b43 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5c9988c8dab999e3f6f2bbca00592cac.pdf b398c2295b56c4cdaa4dd03263afe612 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project John Schrouder World War II 45 minutes 30 seconds (00:00:15) Early Life -Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Had an older sister and a younger brother -Had a simple childhood -Lived in Burton Heights -Normal neighborhood -Would play "kick the can" and have rubberband gun fights -Father was a pharmacist -When he was fifteen years old he would work at his father's store as a soda-jerk -Made soda floats for his girlfriend at the time -Remembers that a pack of cigarettes cost only 10¢ -His first car was a 1928 Roadster Coupe -Saved up money from a paper route to buy it -Bought it for only $9 -Father worked at a Loveland Drug Store -Eventually bought his own on the corner of Fulton Street and Diamond Avenue -Named it Schrouder Drugs -Went to Burton Junior High School and then Davis Tech -Would go rollerskating at Ramona Gardens -Quit high school, but kept busy by working (00:04:39) Enlisting in the Navy -War was on and he knew that he'd eventually get drafted -Didn't want to get into the Army because he didn't want to wind up an infantryman -Went to the Reed's Lake Navy Recruiting Center in East Grand Rapids -Wound up getting drafted and reporting to Detroit for a draft physical -Got drafted into the Navy anyway -Got to Detroit by bus -Went home on leave to say good bye to his family (00:06:23) Basic Training -Got sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training -A lot of drilling -Enjoyed singing, so he joined the Navy Choir -Had no problem adjusting to the Navy, or the discipline -Took an aptitude test at the end of basic training and was assigned to Diesel School (00:07:11) Diesel School -Got sent to Diesel School after thirty days of leave -Returned to Great Lakes Naval Station and was sent to Navy Pier in Chicago for Diesel School �-Learned how to repair diesel engines -Lasted eight to ten weeks -Lived on the base at Navy Pier -Learning how to repair the engines that were used on ships -Felt that it was a good fit for him -Able to explore Chicago -Found a rollerskating rink -Servicemen and servicewomen were treated well in Chicago -While in Diesel School some submarine recruiters came to the base -It sounded like a good deal -He and six, or seven, other men signed up for submarine duty (00:10:00) Submarine Training -Sent to New London, Connecticut -Had to clean the barracks on the base -When submarines came back in from a patrol he could go aboard the ships and explore them -Made the decision that he didn't want to be a submariner -Deliberately flunked out of the submarine program to get out of the training (00:11:10) Assignment to LST 618 and Deployment to Pacific Theatre -Went to Pier 92 in New York City to get reassigned -Sent to Camp Bradford, Virginia and was assigned to LST 618 -First island they went to was an island near New Guinea -Slept in bunks on the ship -Had four hours of watch, and eight hours off -His station was in the auxillary engine room maintaining the three generators -Remembers one of the generators exploding when they were at sea -Took the ship from North Carolina to New Guinea -Sailed through the Panama Canal -Interesting experience getting to see a battleship go through the Canal -Sailed into the Pacific Theatre alone -There were over one hundred sailors on the ship -Note: There were 163 sailors on LST 618 -Got assigned to a larger unit -Thier duty was to carry ammunition for the fleet -During a battle they would stay away from the fighting -Destroyers and cruisers would then go to them to get more ammunition -They knew they were in danger, but it was part of the job and they got used to it (00:16:43) Important Dates -Born May 26, 1925 -Joined the Navy on September 1, 1943 -Got to the Pacific Theatre sometime in 1944 -Most likely late summer 1944 (00:17:02) Liberation of the Philippines -Got three battle stars for three major campaigns in the Philippines �-First major invasion was the island of Leyte -Lasted from October 23, 1944 to November 18, 1944 -Following the invasion of Leyte they were separated from the fleet and got sent to Samar -Japanese would still come in at night and bomb the ships -One of the men on the LST 618 was able to shoot down a Japanese fighter -Hadn't been ashore in a month or more -Went to this small, white beach with beer and Coca Cola -Ordered to return to the LST -Found a path that led to a primitive village -Noticed that there were only men in the villages and they were armed -Went back to the beach and got brought back to the ship -Skipper got in trouble for allowing them to go to that place -Learned that the village was inhabited by Moro people -Indigenous Filipino Muslims that were militant and anti-white -Took part in the invasion of Luzon at Lingayen Gulf from January 4, 1945 to January 17, 1945 -Third invasion was at Mindanao from March 1, 1945 to March 2, 1945 -Feels that all three campaigns were overwhelming Allied victories -Heard about a Japanese fleet being intercepted and destroyed by an American fleet -Either the Battle of Leyte Gulf or the Battle off Samar (00:24:34) End of War & Post-War Service -After Japan surrendered on August 15, 1945 they were sent to China -Moving Nationalist Chinese troops around -Getting Nationalist Chinese troops into positions to fight Communist troops -Heard about the Japanese surrender when they were at sea -There was a big celebration with 102 proof grain alcohol -Got the alcohol after the battery reservoirs were accidentally filled with that -He didn't drink, but was happy that the war was over -No one was belligerent -Got to see Hong Kong, Shanghai, Tianjin, and Tsingtao (now Qingdao) -Got to see the sampans -Chinese children would ask for food, many of them homeless orphans -Mission was ferrying troops from mainland China to Formosa (now Taiwan) -Had a monkey on the ship that was a lot of fun -Had to spray DDT mist on the Chinese troops to kill the lice they had -Monkey ingested some of the DDT and died (00:32:38) Morale, Relationship with Fellow Sailors, Contact with Family, & Downtime -Morale was good on the ship -Officers kept to themselves, but were fair -Did a lot of sleeping because there wasn't much else to do -His battlestation on the ship was to operate the smoke machine to create a smokescreen -No casualties on the ship �-Wrote home quite a bit -Got mail whenever they were in harbor -Heard from parents and his girlfriend -Saw USO Shows -Saw Bob Hope and a famous actress at the time -Traded movies with the other ships to get new movies (00:35:40) Coming Home & End of Service -Got discharged on February 28, 1946 -Could hardly wait to see the shore and sailed under the Golden Gate Bridge -Sailed back to the United States on a Liberty Ship -Greeted by bands playing in San Francisco -People on the dock were shaking their hands -First thing he bought was a bag of popcorn -Sent by train back to Chicago and got discharged there -Took a train from Chicago to Grand Rapids -Family didn't know that he was coming home -Surprised his brother and his mother (00:38:35) Life after the War -Used the GI Bill for flying lessons -Bought surplus aircraft from the military -Could buy a P-38 or a P-51 fighter plane for only $800 -Got a job at Reynolds Metals as a heat treatment operator -Met his wife after the war -Got involved with the local schools -Hired on as the boiler operator for Grandville Public Schools -Worked in the Grandville Public Schools for twenty three years (00:40:51) Reflections on Service -Biggest impact was learning about diesel engines -Enjoyed the experience -Only time he was afraid was when the ship sailed through a typhoon -Had to be strapped into your bunk so you wouldn't fall out -Went on the bridge and saw a massive, two hundred foot wave -Storm went on for hours -Had to keep the ship sailing straight or it would've been rolled over -Best time was after the war and being on the sea and seeing a beautiful rainbow � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SchrouderJ1780V Title A name given to the resource Schrouder, John Althen (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-06-15 Description An account of the resource John Schrouder was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on May 26, 1925. He joined the Navy on September 1, 1943 and was sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for basic training. Upon completion of basic training he was sent to Navy Pier in Chicago, Illinois for Diesel School and after graduating from that he was sent to New London, Connecticut to train with submarines. After deciding to get out of the submarine program he was reassigned to LST 618 and deployed to the Pacific Theatre in late summer 1944. He participated in three major campaigns: the invasion of Leyte (in the Philippines), the invasion of Luzon at Lingayen Gulf (in the Philippines), and the invasion of Mindanao (in the Philippines). After the war, LST 618 ferried Nationalist Chinese troops to various Chinese ports until sailing back to the United States. He was sent back to Chicago and was discharged on February 28, 1946. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schrouder, John Althen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Deb (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f04d59e1b62f207cb46df6111b3fa439.mp3 8185d40d0c4fc8bd99afb8c0af7e8556 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33e8decc2c136aa5f2ad0605f703da01.pdf 3ad76f039557c82997f51a7c21f04af6 PDF Text Text Howard Shultz- Interview by Eric Gollaneck and Megan Stevens October 4, 2018 0:03 EG: Hello. This is Eric Gollaneck 0:05 MS: And Megan Stevens 0:06 EG: And I’m here today with 0:08 HS: Howard Schultz 0:10 EG: At the old school house in Douglas, Michigan, on October the 4th 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us today. We’re interested in a little more about your family’s history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck/Douglas areas. Can you tell us your name again and spell it for us? 0:37 HS: Howard Schultz. H-O-W-A-R-D. initial E. Schultz. S-C-H-U-L-T-Z 0:45 EG: Thanks so much, Howard. Uh, so let’s start out, just give us a little bit of background. I know you’ve been interviewed before in connection with the fuel school house project several years ago. Uh, tell us a little about where you grew up. Some of your background. 1:00 HS: I was born in the Kirby house in Douglas in 1935 on January 16th. I spent the first five years of my life in downtown Douglas. I lived in what had been the old Fenville, the old phone exchange building next to the Norton Drug Store. [clears throat] 1:22 EG: All right 1:23 HS: None of which exists anymore 1:24 EG: [Laugh] 1:25 HS: Uh, the first five years of my life were on the streets of Douglas. 1:28 EG: [laugh] 1:28 MS: [laugh] 1:29 HS: There was a hotel on the corner. There were people coming and going. There was, oh, a party type store in the middle. 1:38 EG: Yeah �1:39 HS: There was a restaurant across the street, a hotel, as I said, right on the corner, and a young girl about my age, so I could go beat on her once in a while. 1:47 EG: [laugh] 1:48 HS: so, uh, it was pretty eventful for the first five years, but I don’t remember it at all, of course. 1:53 EG: Right 1:55 HS: We moved to a house up on the hill in Douglas, which was on what we called River Road in those days. Going east towards Fennville and Allegan. [clear throat] And that was in 1940. And my first recollection of that move was I could just barely reach the door handle. 2:12 EG: [laugh] 2:13 HS: Which is, so I was upright at least. 2:15 MS: Yeah. [laugh] 2:15 EG: Right. Right. So in early childhood. Did you live in that house for a number of years? 2:19 HS: We lived in that years, I stayed in that house, grew out of that house till 1953 when I graduated from high school and went away to college in Indiana. 2:30 EG: All right. Where-where did you go to coll— what school specifically? 2:33 HS: Indiana Technical College 2:34 EG: Oh, ok. 2:35 HS: In Fort Wayne, Indiana. 2:37 EG: What’d you study there? 2:38 HS: I studied mechanical engineering. 2:40 EG: All right. Very interesting. 2:43 HS: Yeah. Do you want anything in between? 2:44 EG: [laugh] �2:44 MS: [laugh] 2:45 EG: We’ll, we’ll circle back on a couple of things here. So, but just to lay it out I know you’ve got, uh, deep family connections in the area here, but tell us a little bit about your, your family, about your parents, their names, and siblings you had. 3:01 HS: [clear throat], well my father was the, at the time when I was born worked for the, what was the state highway department. 3:09 EG: Mm 3:09 HS: At the time. And their garage is right across the street from the Kirby House, which is the ex-garage and, and a bunch of other things. He worked there, and, in 1940, of course, World War Two was just going into swing. And a lot of the boys were being pulled away, and my dad ended up working for the village of Douglas. He was village clerk already, from 1932 on, he’d been village clerk, and he ended up being the street commissioner, for, for the town, and the treasurer at one time. And he was on the school board. 3:48 EG: [laugh] 3:48 HS: several years. And he was, uh, uh, with the Masonic temple. He was past master several times. So he was a pretty major player in town for a while. 3:58 EG: Right 3:58 MS: Yeah 3:58 HS: There weren’t many people in those days. The town had about five hundred people, and we probably had close to three hundred going off someplace. 4:08 EG: Right 4:08 HS: You know, that could, able bodied people. A lot of people went away to the war, either in the war directly 4:14 EG: Mhm 4:14 HS: Or the war effort. 4:15 EG: Absolutely. What, how old was he in 1940? What year was he born? 4:20 HS: He was born in, I think 1905. 4:24 EG: Ok. Yeah. �4:26 HS: and, uh, [clear throat] My mother is a, she was a Chase family. And Chase family was north of, north of town. South of town, on what is now Blue Star Highway. It was US 31 aft-afterwards. But the road, there’s an old map in our system that called it the Chase Road. 4:44 EG: Ok. 4:44 HS: Because the highway, actually, the main highway was out on the lakeshore. And they came through and went across the highway went across Saugatuck to the car ferry. 4:55 EG: Mhm 4:56 HS: That was the only place they could cross to Kalamazoo down here [clear throat] until they built the Douglas bridge, which goes way back into the 1800’s 5:03 EG: hmm 5:04 HS: But my mother went to, um, Saugatuck High School as I did. She graduated in 1922. 5:10 EG: hm 5:11 HS: Um, curiously the, the school burned. She was in class at Saugatuck High School, and it also burned when I went to Saugatuck High School 5:19 EG: [laugh] 5:19 MS: [laugh] 5:23 EG: You haven’t, you don’t have any grandkids that are in Saugatuck, that are in Saugatuck High School do you? That we should, uh 5:25 MS: [laugh] 5:28 HS: I have no idea, uh, what caused either of them. Um, I don’t know the details of my mother’s except that she said that it burned. I don’t know anything about that. But our’s, it burned everything but the, um, gymnasium. 5:42 MS: Oh wow. 5:42 HS: We, we were able to keep going. We portioned the gymnasium in half, we could still have half room classes with the portable walls. We still had a few classrooms there. And some of the classes were in one of the churches. I can’t, I don’t have any detail about any of that, but it was the younger classes they went to high school. High school was at the, um, still at the building, at the location. On top of the hill. That’s the high school that was on top of the hill. �6:09 EG: hm. 6:09 HS: Right now there’s nothing but condos up there. 6:12 EG: Hm 6:14 HS: And that’s where we graduated. We were back into a new building my senior year, uh, that was my sophomore year I think when it burned. Took them a couple of years they, they were talking about building a high school, not building a high school. And we even had a parade when the council was voting on whether to bond to build a new school. 6:38 EG: mm hm 6:38 MS: mm hm 6:38 HS: Or not, and we had a parade and said “Your children do not want to wear wooden shoes. 6:43 EG: [laugh] 6:43 HS: Because the plan was either to amend our system with Holland’s or Fennville 6:50 MS: Oh 6:50 HS: And a quite a few of our kids already, because freedom of choice, school of choice, freedom 6:56 EG: mm. yeah 6:56 MS: mm hm 6:57 HS: Had just kicked in, and some of our kids right out of town, Douglas went to Fennville. 7:02 EG: right 7:02 HS: Which Fennville didn’t have a good reputation in those days 7:05 EG: hm 7:06 HS: And Saugatuck was, we were down to, well my class, in my time frame it was like fifty students for the whole school �7:12 MS: Oh wow 7:13 HS: [clear throat] 7:14 EG: yeah. 7:14 HS: And there wasn’t that big build up that you have now in Saugatuck Township around, between here and Holland. 7:20 EG: mm 7:22 HS: And that’s brought a lot of the kids in from rather than go to Holland, they came to Saugatuck. And so, that’s why that got divided up. Uh, I don’t know how long that school lasted, uh, but I was surprised to come home, we were overseas for a while with my job right after I got out of college 7:38 EG: mm 7:38 HS: And I came back home, and they had torn that school down and turned it into a condo and rebuilt the one that they have now up on the hill which you probably know where that is. 7:47 EG: mm hm. Yeah. We’ve been there with the Contemporary Stories 7:50 MS: Yeah 7:51 EG: of Saugatuck Project 7:52 HS: that [clear throat] was a major, major issue for this city 7:57 EG: yeah 7:58 HS: to build that major, major school 8:00 MS: Yeah 8:00 HS: In the face of the type of the population we must have had in those days. No major bondage in other words 8:06 EG: Right. 8:08 HS: And anyway, they ended up with a nice point up there. 8:09 EG: Tell, tell us more about that parade. Where you involved �8:11 HS: Oh yeah, sure. 8:11 EG: in that at all? 8:14 HS: We made signs and carried them. Marched up and down the street. 8:16 MS: [laugh] 8:16 HS: Talking about we don’t wear, and, and, the cheerleaders’ head cheerleader, I assumed it was head cheerleader 8:25 EG: [laugh] 8:26 HS: She and, and I probably were the leaders because I was in basketball at that time. 8:30 EG: Ok 8:33 HS: And uh, put that parade together and marched up and down the street the night the council was meeting 8:36 EG: Yeah 8:37 HS: Her dad was president of the council 8:39 EG: Oh, wow. 8:39 HS: He was another of the major fathers who were around. 8:42 EG: yeah 8:42 MS: Mm hm 8:42 HS: So the vote went, “We’re gonna build” 8:45 EG: What, do you remember what year that was? 8:49 HS: Probably about 1950 8:50 EG: mm. Ok. 8:52 HS: 51, at at the most. I don’t know for sure. 8:54 EG: Yeah. Community schools. That’s still a, still a powerful issue, right? �9:00 HS: Yeah. 9:00 EG: Lots of strong feelings about it. 9:02 HS: So that was, uh, and that was a nice thing to happen. They built a very nice school out of it. We were in the process, my senior class, our shop class was building, was building a new shop. 9:15 Unkown: You taping? 9:16 MS: Yeah sorry 9:18 EG: Mmhm yeah 9:20 HS: My shop class was building new racks and things for the shop 9:24 EG: Ok 9:25 HS: Which we hadn’t had a shop before 9:26 EG: Ok. Yeah. So this was new. 9:28 HS: Yeah. It was a new thing. 9:30 EG: Was it woodworking, wood working shop? Metal working? 9:32 HS: Uh, mostly wood working 9:34 EG: Yeah. 9:34 HS: I don’t recall much metal working stuff. Might of had couple of pieces 9:39 EG: yeah. 9:39 HS: But no welders or stuff like that 9:41 EG: Some brakes or something like that. Sure. 9:41 HS: Mm 9:45 EG: Yeah 9:45 HS: It was nice, it was going to be a nice school for a couple of students �9:49 EG: right 9:49 HS: But I didn’t get to see it much, yeah. 9:50 EG: You were put to work. 9:52 HS: I was working elsewhere. 9:53 EG: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So we’ve had, we’ve interviewed you about the Douglas school, the Union school building we’re sitting in right now. Uh, anything in particular you want to share about that? Uh, about your, your youth in Douglas? 10:09 HS: Well 10:09 EG: Or kind of pre-high school years or middle school 10:11 HS: At various, at various times I’ve helped out, Jim Smeeken and uh, uh, (pause) uh, what’s his name with the, with the photos? Haven’t seen him in quite a while now. Jack! 10:29 EG: Oh, Jack Sheridan 10:30 HS: Jack Sheridan 10:31 EG: Yeah 10:31 HS: Um, I try to, try to help them out with photographs, they were hanging photographs. And I have quite a few and I turned them in down at the basement. 10: 39 EG: Right 10:40 HS: Storage for various things 10:42 EG: yeah 10:43 HS: And uh, but I’ve said, and I just said it to Nathan, not too long ago, I can identify a lot of the names on those picutres for class attendees 10:51 EG: m hm. Yeah. 10:53 HS: for various ones we have for graduation classes, and, or other sub graduating, several classes Not graduates, but just class 10:58 EG: right �11:00 HS: Photos 11:00 EG: Yeah 11:01 HS: which was a common thing. We used to we used take because there weren’t that many people 11:04 EG: Yeah 11:04 HS: Class photos every, every year for a while. Some have, maybe not been taken or some haven’t surfaced, but everyone that I’ve ever seen I made sure they’ve got copies here. 11:15 EG: Right. Yeah. No. That- that’s 11:17 HS: My sister, my sister also and she had several classes that, you know, where beyond me, behind me. She was five years younger than I. 11:24 EG: Yeah. tell me a little bit about your siblings. We’ve asked about that, and we, come back to that for a second. Tell me about your siblings 11:31 HS: Well, I had one daughter. Sister, I mean. One sister, and my folks had twins. 11:37 EG: Hm. 11:37 HS: And the one daughter did not survive. So I had one sister that survived. 11:42 EG: And what was your sister, what’s your sister’s name? 11:45 HS: Her name was Judy. Judith Anne. And she married a Lovejoy, finally 11:50 EG: [laugh] 11:51 HS: After, uh, a period of time in school and, uh, working in Saugatuck. So, she was kind of at home, helping my dad with book work a lot. She took bookkeeping at MSU, and so she stayed there until her, um, husband-to-be was in the Navy. 12:08 EG: Mm hm 12:10 HS: Until he had the chance to get out, and you know, got reassigned to locations someplace. 12:15 EG: Right. Right. They moved away. Did they come back? �12:17 HS: They moved. They were in Jacksonville, Florida, for a while. 12:21 EG: Hm. 12:22 HS: And he’d been in Green, Greenland for years. Frank Lovejoy 12:26 EG: Hmm 12:27 HS: He’d been there for a few years. And, uh, his career was photographic for the, for the military. 12:31 EG: Ok. 12:32 HS: So, uh, he had a good chance at a career, but he gave up on that. He came back to Saugatuck and worked here. There were factories here. There was Crampton’s out here, which is, uh, whatever the factory is now that’s about three, three generations beyond the last 12:49 EG: mhm 12:50 HS: at that, at that property, during the war there was a lot of factory jobs. Jobs going everywhere that people could work at. 12:57 EG: Right 12:59 HS: So anyway we, uh, the town was, I feel very uh, fortunate, uh, at one time we had a memory board, uh, military board at the corner of the park down there. Berry field? 13:14 EG: Yes 13:15 HS: And it had a list of people and no one got, of the town people got directly killed in the war. 13:24 EG: hmm 13:24 HS: They all came back 13:26 EG: Ok 13:26 HS: They all came back. There were a couple of losses later 13:31 EG: Yeah 13:31 HS: Neighbor, neighboring areas �13:35 EG: mm hm 13:35 HS: That I knew about personally. Where a couple of guys got, got killed but, 13:39 EG: Yeah 13:40 HS: One was on a, he come back and was flying a, uh, crop dusting planes, 13:47 EG: hmm 13:47 HS: Because in the military, they’d learned to fly some of them 13:50 EG: Right. Yeah. 13:51 HS: And uh, that was one of the interesting stories. I started to talk to Mary last night 13:57 EG: About the airport? 13:57 HS: About the airport 13:58 EG: Yeah 13:59 HS: Because, um, the Crane family who are still in Fennville with the apple orchards 14:03 EG: Right 14:03 HS: Um, among other things, are, um. The Cranes didn’t have hillsides or room to build an airport. One of their sons had wanted to fly. So the Cranes built an airport right down here, which is now on Blue Star right at the exit, at the the interchange, the expressway 14:22 EG: Oh really? 14:24 HS: Yes. That was an airport down there. 14:25 EG: All right. 14:26 HS: And uh, he built a T-shaped airport. Across- cross 14:30 EG: mm hm 14:30 HS: Uh, east west, and north south. And their planes were coming right over our house on Douglas 14:38 EG: [laugh] �14:38 HS: On Water Street 14:39 EG: Yeah. 14:39 HS: As a youngster, so I had, that was right after the war, so that would have been like 49, 50 14:43 EG: mm hm 14:44 HS: Right, my years of being interested in planes 14:46 EG: Yeah 14:47 HS: So we got into model airplanes. There was a big model airplane contingent around here at that time too 14:50 EG: [laugh] 14:52 HS: And, uh, I met a guy that got me involved and interested in going to the school in Indiana, this technical college 14:59 EG: Ok. 15:00 HS: So it was aero and mechanical, and a lot of the school was for returning vets 15:04 EG: Sure 15:05 HS: Who could go to school on the GI 15:07 EG: Right 15:07 HS: You know, there were kids, there were people, I just met a guy the other day that actually got pulled out of school because he was in the military. He’d been in the military, whatever they call it. ROTC or-15:18 EG: mm hm 15:18 HS: something. And had been training in pilot, pilot, as a pilot. He was already trained pilot 15:22 EG: Yeah 15:23 HS: In high school. He got pulled out before he graduated from high school �15:27 EG: Wow 15:28 HS: Ended up flying B-51’s in the, the, uh Korea when Korean War started 15:33 EG: Oh wow 15:34 HS: In the 50’s 15:36 EG: Yeah 15:36 HS: I just missed, I just missed that because I went to engineering school 15:39 EG: Right 15:39 HS: On, on a, uh, deferment, deferment. Because I was going for engineering school 15:47 EG: mm hm 15:47 HS: And they wanted engineers, so 15:49 EG: Right. You’re kind of between, between those two, those two windows of time in some ways. Between World War Two, and you’re much too young for World War Two, but 16:00 HS: We were still on the draft for the Korean War 16:03 EG: Right. Yeah. 16:05 HS:.A lot of the late guys did, and some of them already went. A lot of my, a lot of my friends that didn’t go to school 16:11 EG: Right 16:11 HS: Went right into the, within in a year were in the, in the war 16:14 EG: Right. Yeah. Talk a little about that, that time period. It sounds like you had had, you had memories of the second world war 16:25 HS: um 16:26 EG: or, or not much? 16:26 HS: Not much. We couldn’t do that, like it is now, at all. The only way we could find out was, everything was censored. �16:35 EG: Mmhm 16:35 HS: Uh, we have a bunch of letters in our, from our relatives. 16:39 EG: mm hm 16:40 HS: And, uh, they can’t say anything. They’re all military 16:43 EG: mm hm 16:44 HS: Foreign military setup 16:45 EG: Right. That- that V Mail. 16:47 HS: Yeah. 16:48 EG: That was vimeographed 16:49 HS: vimeographed and 16:50 EG: and edited 16:50 HS: and reduced and redacted and all that. Yeah that. We got some of that. So they couldn’t say anything by mail. And the only thing that could come out was that every Saturday we could go to Fennville. Fennville had a little movie theater. 17:01 EG: mm hm 17:02 HS: And we could go over there, and you could get that, what five minute news reel? 17:06 EG: mm hm 17:06 HS: Or something. Propaganda type news reel 17:08 EG: Right. 17:08 HS: With the boys are here and the boys are there 17:10 EG: mmhm 17:10 HS: and we’re winning this. We’re winning that. 17:12 EG: Yeah �17:12 HS: And we need more money. 17:13 EG: Yeah. 17:13 HS: Everything was about money. You know? We were--I still have some ration, uh, stickers for, for gasoline 17:20 EG: Right 17:22 HS: uh, my dad was getting ration stickers for my daughter, my sis, his daughter, my sister [laugh] 17:29 EG: Yeah. 17:29 HS: When she was twelve years 17:31 EG: Right 17:32 HS: so I mean they, they were because he wanted to go deer hunting and that, he had to use up a lot of his stickers to go up north to go deer hunting, and 17:38 EG: For sure. Yeah 17:39 HS: He never, he never missed a year of deer hunting. 17:41EG: Ok. Had to plan ahead for that one 17:42 HS: Yeah 17:43 EG: For sure 17:45 HS: So, yeah, that was about the only thing we could find out 17: 47 EG: Yeah 17:48 HS: My uncle [clear throat] one of my uncles had been in World War One that was regular family. He was the um, postmaster in downtown Douglas. His name was Jean Campbell 17:58 EG: Ok. 17:59 HS: And, uh, he used to come over to be at my folks’ house. My folks never anywhere. And he’d come over to the house, and he’d want to listen to the Walter Winchell Show. Radio show, at night. �18:08 EG: mm hm 18:09 HS: And he was embedded and talking 18:12 EG: mm hm 18:13 HS: Street’s talk, so 18:14 EG: yeah 18:15 HS: That’s what we’d find out from what was going on 18:17 EG: yeah 18:18 HS: But it was a big, big pressure on everybody’s just to live, you know? What was going on 18:24 EG: Right 18:25 HS: My aunt went to Detroit and ended up in the war effort in a factory 18:28 EG: mhm 18:29 HS: Don’t know what, never got any details 18:31 EG: [laugh] 18:31 HS: I always thought she was putting B-29’s together 18:33 EG: [laugh] 18:34 HS: Or B-24’s together 18:35 EG: Right 18:36 HS: Um 18:37 EG: How old were you in 1945? 18:39 HS: 10 18:40 EG: Ok. Do you have memories of the end of the war? 18:43 HS: Yes. Everybody was very happy �18:44 EG: [laugh] 18:45 HS: Very, very happy. I don’t remember the big scare about the Japanese much until afterwards, but the Japanse were in the Aleutians 18:54 EG: mmhm 18:55 HS: And they were finding floating bombs, you know from 18:57 EG: mmhm 18:59 HS: from the 18:58 EG: yeah 18:58 HS: What do you call it, the currents? 18:59 EG: The balloon bombs 19:00 HS: balloon bombs? 19:01 EG: That they dropped yeah. 19:02 HS: yeah. Uh. Never heard much about that till afterwards. 19:06 EG: Yeah 19:07 HS: I’ve been very interested in history. War history, 19:08 EG: yeah 19:08 HS: ever since. I watch everything I can watch on TV about it 19:12 EG: hm 19:12 HS: Cause there’s this new footage coming out of Japan and Germany yet 19:15 EG: hm 19:15 HS: Both of them. So, a lot of, lot of stuff’s still coming out. Keep track of 19:20 EG: Do you remember anything on, uh, you know, the uh, VE-- VJ Day or you know �19:26 HS: oh yeah 19:26 EG: the signing of, you know the end of the war 19:29 HS: Oh yeah 19:29 EG: Here in Douglas or in Saugatuck? 19:31 HS: Oh I don’t remember any, uh, formal celebrations, but there were a lot of gunshots in the neighborhood 19:37 EG: [laugh] Lots of people letting off 19:40 HS: Letting off steam 19:41 EG: Letting off steam, and uh, 19:43 HS: little pressure 19:43 EG: the end of the 19:44 HS: a box of shells was precious in those days too. 19:47 EG: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. So, uh, let’s talk a little bit more about, uh, the airport. Just to kind of clarify that some. So you mentioned the Crane brothers 19:58 HS: They built and 19:59 EG: and family 19:59 HS: and I spent some time, I worked at the Fennville Rod and Gun Club Pancake Breakfasts 20:04 EG: mmhm 20:04 HS: And I take money there and Mr. Crane, the last still surviving of the original family, used to come in and wait for his family. They’d get together for breakfast. He, several times, was ahead, and he’d sit down with me and talk. And I consider those my most precious times 20:20 EG: [laugh] 20:20 HS: Cause I could talk to him about the airport. 20:24 EG: yeah. �20:24 HS: Because I was flying model airplanes. By that time, I was with a gang of guys, you know, we used to start with little ones and pretty soon bigger and bigger. 20:30 EG: yeah 20:31 HS: And one of the fellows was a son of the Wimple Grocery store that was mentioned last night 20:37 EG: Yeah 20:38 HS: But from Saugatuck and he was older, he was quite a bit older than I, but he was well entrenched in model airplanes 20:45 EG: [laugh] 20:45 HS: so he kind of led the pack 20:47 EG: yeah 20:47 HS: and that’s how I met another fellow through him that I ended up in school with 20:50 EG: yeah 20:51 HS: But, uh, Bud had gotten married and went to Western. Western had a air, air course, uh system then. So I was kind of working with these guys, thinking that’s the way I’m going to go 21:01 EG: right 21:02 HS: and so I was talking to Mr. Crane, and he said that was really a tight little airport. He said, but we had now choice because we couldn’t put one over on our property 21:11 EG: hm 21:11 HS: He says the only thing that ever happened bad was one of the guys took out the pipe, the lines one time, took out the electric lines 21:17 EG: Oh 21:17 HS: Because they were set up east/west. They didn’t get a lot of property east west. 21:23 EG: Ok �21:23 HS: But east end, ended in woods. 21:27 EG: yeah 21:27 HS: So they had to start from there and go west and come up over the, the, the building is still there. The little light house, uh, restaurant property is there. 21:36 EG: Oh. Ok. Sure. 21:38 HS: And he said they had to come up over that well the wires where, you know well the wires are 21:43 EG: right 21:44 HS: They’re still there. 21:45 EG: Yeah 21:45 HS: He said they’d take them out one time. One of their planes 21:47 EG: Wow 21:48 HS: All they had was those, um, Piper Clubs and uh, 21:49 EG: mmhm 21:50 HS: Maybe a Taylor Craft or two. Little, light weight 21:52 EG: Right 21:52 HS: Little planes 21:53 EG: single engine 21:55 HS: And, uh, they’d come, if there was wind out of the Northwest, which it was a lot, 21:58 EG: mm hm 21:58 HS: they could come straight north out of the runway. Came right out over East Douglas. 22:05 EG: mm hm 22:05 HS: Which was 294 Water Street was our house [laugh] �22:09 EG: [laugh] 22:09 HS: They’d come over real low, so I’d always be watching them too. Uh, as they’d be going over and 22:17 EG: yeah 22:17 HS: I had model planes of them, and I flew uh, radio control, not radio control but string control hand control 22:26 EG: Ok 22:26 HS: I never got quite to radio control. I was building one, then I decided I’ve got save my money for college, so 22:31 EG: right. Yeah. It’s probably a relatively expensive hobby. 22:35 HS: Well I was in those days yeah. 22:36 EG: Not the same technology 22:39 HS: Well It still is expensive 22:40 EG: yeah 22:40 HS: It hasn’t got 22:41 EG: [laugh] 22:41 HS: That hasn’t gone away. It’s gotten a lot more complicated, though. 22:44 EG: right for sure. 22:45 HS: So anyway, uh, that was fun, Mr, uh, Mr. Crane telling me about that. But other than that, they didn’t have much trouble at, later. Somewhere along the line, they sold off a corner of it. The back corner of that airport, or, leased it off 23:05 EG: mhm 23:06 HS: To, um a track, ra- race track. So 23:08 EG: right 23:09 HS: That’s where Douglas Race Track became �23:10 EG: Right 23:11 HS: I think it was about a quarter mile, maybe three eighths mile dirt 23:14 EG: hm 23:14 HS: track, a small little dirt track. 23:16EG: Yeah. 23:16 HS: The confines of the corner 23:17 EG: Within the airport itself. Yeah. 23:20 HS: And, uh, I ended up, uh, when I was in college, (pause), uh, first year I had a car. I had an old car that needed some work. And I ended up, my dad, my dad, I got to work for my dad on the county, he also was county road supervisor 23:37 EG: mm hm 23:37 HS: after he left Douglas part of it, but the county high way split. 23:41 EG: mm hm 23:43 HS: In 1960 about, no it was earlier than that. 23:46 EG: mm hm 23:46 HS: They split up (pause) and they, the county, uh, garage was up behind our house. And the state highway garage was still down on Blue Star here, which was still 31. But anyway, I used to fly model airplanes that were the same as what 24:05 EG: [laugh] 24:05 HS: what they were flying, and I, I lost one. We’d go down on 31, and my buddy, this was uh, Bud Wimple, he had had electric, uh, power, electric control planes 24:17 EG: Hm 24:18 HS: Remote control. And he lost one, one time, and the big trucks that were going down 31. I remember the plane going “mrow” and he lost control of it. It could only go about a quarter of a mile, you know. �24:28 EG: mhm 24:28 HS: Blew, the thing was doing loop de loos 24:31 EG: Yeah 24:31 HS: and right between the big trucks going down the highway. 24:35 EG: [laugh] Did, did he get it back, or 24:38 HS: Yeah, I got it back, he was a little crippled, and, 24:40 EG: Ok 24:40 HS: uh, I don’t know if he got that in the war or but he was, 24:45 EG: yeah 24:45 HS: one leg was bad. I was able to run it down for him. It was way out in the dunes over 24:49 EG: oh wow 24:49 HS: towards the lake. 24:50 EG: Ok 24:50 HS: And I lost a plane my own self out that way one time 24:53 EG: yeah. 24:53 HS: Cause I was flying a free flight, and I just put so much gas in, it was the only way you can turn ‘em off. 24:59 EG: right 25: HS: And uh, it was, it went way the heck out. I was eating dinner one night, a couple months later. My dad gets a phone call. And he says “No, that’s not me. That’s my son.” Some guy had found it on his farm way out back there some place. 25:12 EG: Ok 25:13 HS: [laugh] 25:15 EG: [laugh] �25:15 HS: so we had some fun with model airplanes, but we, with model airplanes we did a lot, uh, we did speed racing 25:21 EG: mhm 25:22 HS: We did ca-, uh, what’d we call them? Fights, fights, uh, dog fights 25:26 EG: ah 25:27 HS: With model airplanes, all on the Douglas ball diamond there. 25:31 EG: yeah 25:31 HS: And, uh, on a Sunday afternoon, we could get cars parked all the way around that ball diamond. Just like a softball game. 25:39 EG: Wow. Watching that 25:40 HS: Watching 25:41 EG: Watching the airshow 25:41 HS: those model planes 25:42 EG: air show. Yeah. 25:43 HS: those guys with the planes 25:44 EG: no kidding 25:45 HS: It was very popular in those days. 25:47 EG: Were those planes you built, were they built out of kits or were they things you made up out of parts yourself? 25:51 HS: Mine was pretty much a kit 25:53 EG: mm hm 25:54 HS: You could get planes in several magazines 25:56 EG: mm hm �25:56 HS: and make them yourself out of those planes 25:59 EG: Right 25:59 HS: like the ones that I made for racing 26:02 EG: mm hm 26:02 HS: we started the speed, speed kit. You just got a kit in the mail easy. 26:05 EG: mm hm 26:06 HS: Or you got a picture of a kit in a magazine. You’d put your own idea in it and you’d do it your own way if you had the right tools. You’d cut them out of balsa wood and 26:13 EG: right 26:14 HS: glued them together 26:16 EG: yeah 26:16 HS: Yeah, I had a near record, record speedster at one time. 26:21 EG: [laugh] 26:21 HS: I never got it proved, but Grand Rapids used to have, in those days it was called AMA, American Modelist Association, Meets in Grand Rapids. It was one of the stops. 26:32 EG: hm. Yeah. 26:32 HS: but I never went up to Grand Rapids and tried to run. You know, that’s where the big boy’s meet 26:38 EG: Right. [laugh] 26:39 HS: I was just a little boy. 26:40 EG: right 26:42 HS: but I made one, one in one of their classes 26:44 EG: yeah 26:45 HS: I just didn’t have an engine suitable to �26:47 EG: mm hm 26:47 HS: But I still got speed real close to what they were getting. 26:49 EG: right. Oh, that’s fascinating. Yeah, we hadn’t heard much about that. So that’s a really interesting story 26:49 HS: There was a hard ware store. Came into Douglas, downtown Douglas. Called Tate’s. Uh, in those days there was an outfit called Tate and Burr’s. The guys were partners. I don’t know if they were married to the same wives, I mean different wives. They were friends. 27:11 EG: Yeah [laugh] 27:12 HS: They’d come into town and each time, Burn’s took over Vansickle’s store, you heard it 27:18 EG: yeah 27:19 HS: Or grocery store. You heard of that? 27:20 EG: Yeah. Yeah. 27:22 HS: Ok. Well the grocery store was had been Burn, had been ,uh, been uh, Vansickle’s, and uh, they sold out and as he got older. Burns took that over and Tate started a hardware store in a place, now there’s another gift shop some kind down there. 27:41 EG: mm hm 27:41 HS: And the building’s still there. Right in the main stretch, but on the west end of the main stretch on the north side of the road. And he wanted to be a good model airplane, uh, dispensary for 27:53 EG: hm 27:53 HS: for all kids coming over. That was one of the things. He was a good hardware store owner, in the timeframe that it needed because everybody was building rebuilding old houses and 28:02 EG: mm hm 28:03 HS: A lot of stuff going on. I was surprised to see it didn’t carry on, but 28:08 EG: mm hm �28:08 HS: it couldn’t. But anyway, he uh, he commissioned me to make some display models for him. So I had old display models hanging up in the, uh, store at the time. And I flew one, one time and, it wasn’t a good flyer, but it looked pretty and that’s what he wanted. 28:23 EG: [laugh] 28:24 HS: So that was always kind of fun 28:26 EG: yeah. 28:27 HS: again, those are all my years probably up to sixteen, maybe seventeen. 28:30 EG: mm hm. Yeah. Moved on to other things. Did you play basketball 28:36 HS: I played basketball at Saugatuck 28:36 EG: at Saugatuck high school? 28:38 HS: That’s one of the main reasons I went over there is because they had the junior team at one point 28:42 EG: mm 28:43 HS: And the year I went they didn’t have a junior team. But I still, I didn’t know how to play basketball. I just knew about it. 28:49 EG: ok. 28:50 HS: But, uh, I liked to play it. Worked hard at it. Practiced for a whole year, and then finally. I couldn’t play the first year. I uh, had a heart condition that wouldn’t allow me to play according to their doctor assessment. 29:02 EG: Ok. Hm. 29:03 HS: After they, they decided later, you know, I played scrimmages and worked out hard myself the whole year. 29:09 EG: yeah 29:10 HS: And I was still there. 29:11 EG: yeah �29:12 HS: So they decided to let me play 29:14 EG: [laugh] 29:14 HS: And, uh, so I was in the last three years, 10, 11, and 12th grade 29:17 EG: yeah 29:18 HS: And, uh, got MVP the final, the senior year. 29:22 EG: [laugh] 29:24 HS: But, uh, that was, that was fun. We didn’t make it to the, we didn’t make it past the district, so. 29:30 EG: Right. (pause) Say a little bit about games and, uh, you know, kind of what that, what that was like, what, what home games were like at the high school 29:41 HS: Oh 29:42 EG: and who came out and 29:43 HS: Well, high, high school was not much to be honest. It had a baseball team for years. Right. I got two letter, you know sweater. I played baseball too. But the big thing for me was Saugatuck was Douglas Athletic club. Which was this building over here at the time. 30:00 EG: Right. 30:02 HS: And those guys went to the war. Most of them young guys. 30:04 EG: Yeah 30:05 HS: And they came back and started trying to play ball. They had been softball players before they went, a lot of them. 30:11 EG: mm hmm 30:12 HS: And um, while they were gone, we had a junior AC. We were high school kids 30:19 EG: hm 30:19 HS: at the time. And that was, that was fun. We, uh, we played, uh, we started out at one time before the war, or just right around the war time, there had been a girls’ team, and a �boys’ team. They went, women had gotten a team together. Some company had sponsored them and bought them uniforms 30:38 EG: mm hmm 30:40 HS: and got them started. There were women, women playing softball here. 30:42 EG: Yeah 30:42 HS: And the men’s, men’s team was all right at the range that they’d be going to the war. So, uh, it didn’t the girls’ team didn’t last long, and most of the men’s team folded up. I got in. I started off as batboy of the men’s team 30:54 EG: hm 30:55 HS: But I don’t know if that was 1939, or not, but I’ve got a picture some place to show. But I was batboy at the age of fourteen or there abouts. 31:04 EG: yeah 31:04 HS: Because I was tall they’d stick me in when they were short of players, and I’d play second base or right field 31:08 EG: [laugh] 31:08 MS: [laugh] 31:08 HS: or wherever I could play. 31:10 EG: Yeah. 31:11 HS: And all of a sudden there were two, three, more of us guyys that were playing with the men’s team. 31:15 EG: Yeah. 31:15 HS: And pretty soon we were the men’s team. 31:17 EG: Yeah. 31:17 MS: [laugh] 31:18 HS: You know, just quickly because of the war thing �31:19 EG: Yeah. 31:20 HS: The women’s team folded up, but get started to be the men’s team we ended up being the junior AC’s. They called us for a while. We had these red uniforms, but they all zipped on the side (pause) 31:34 EG: Ok 31:34 MS: Sure 31:35 HS: Where this is going? 31:35 EG: [laugh] Yeah. Yeah. 31:35 MS: [laugh] 31:37 HS: So we became the Douglas Squatters 31:40 EG: [laugh] yeah. Hm. 31:40 MS: Oh. [laugh] 31:45 HS: So anyway, that lasted a couple of years. Some guy in Saugatuck came up with that name. I don’t take credit for it 31:51 MS: [laugh] 31:51 EG: [laugh] 31:51 HS: He called us, and after the red team folded quickly, because the men were gone we became the AC’s. we were 31:59 EG: yeah 32:00 HS: In high school a couple three of us. We practiced and were working hard and uh, 32:04 EG: Yeah. 32:05 HS: Three or four guys could pitch, and several times we were short of people too. And we were, not that many guys were all that athletic at school. There were a bunch of guys that didn’t even play basketball or anything 32:17 EG: yeah �32:17 HS: with the school. And the same with the town. So we had some helpers. We got some people in from Fennville, and some people came along. We used to have a rivalry between the lakeshore. 32:26 EG: mm 32:27 HS: There was a whole gang of guys at the lake shore level. They got a ball game team together. And we’d get together, and play scrimmages, sort of. Pretty soon it was a real rivalry. Games went on between the lakeshore and the Douglas ACs 32:41 EG: Wow 32:42 HS: And that’s still coming back because my daughter has a place on the lakeshore 32:46 EG: Yeah 32:47 HS: And she’s met people out there that have kids, second generation that remember the Douglas AC’s and the Lakeshore team 32:53 EG: Right 32:53 HS: fighting and playing and couple of people remember me, because I’m still around, but um, yeah that was fun. That was a good, good time. 33:01 EG: Tell us a little bit more. We’ve heard, and this has come up, lots of baseball. Lots of people playing baseball in summer long growing up here in Douglas. And stories about the athletic club. Tell us a little bit about, about the athletic club specifically. Like, what was that place like? 33:17 HS: Well, the athletic club when I, when I was in it, when I was first able to get in it was as, uh, scouts. We were the boy scouts. And, uh, at that time there was a deal with little cars, little powered cars. Tether cars, they called them, were being raced, and we could race cars. Not to track cars, was the next phase of the hobby. They were track cars, and they were on a little tether. And you’d wind up the motor 33:45 EG: Ok. 33:45 HS: Or start a motor. They were just starting to build little teeny, teeny motors. And I got into that phase, anything with mechanics that I could afford I was in 33:55 EG: [laugh] You wanted it 33:58 HS: I wanted it. I was a gear head. But um, I got a head, a side track there, towards the um, towards the high school days. I used to mow lawns. I started off mowing jobs here in �Douglas. I took a couple of couple of lawn jobs in Saugatuck and it quickly blossomed, and, uh, the bank president saw me one day, mowing lawn, in his neighborhood. He called my dad who was, you know, the village clerk at the time or treasurer, and he always had bank business. And um, asked him if I could, would consider working in the bank. My dad said “Hell, yes.” 34:47 EG: [laugh] 34:47 MS: [laugh] 34:38 HS: So I ended up working in the bank, summers, and part time during the rest of the year. On statement days and on weekends. 34:45 EG: yeah. 34:46 HS: So that’s how I got doing that, I was doing that 34:47 EG: Who, who, who was your, who was your 34:48 HS: from about 16. 34:50 EG: Who was the owner of the bank? 34:53 HS: Lim Brady. He was the manager of the Saugatuck branch. There was also one in, in um, Fennville. And, up in Fennville, I think it was Al Hutchets, and he became a senator. I think he was a senator. I’m not sure how the bank, per se, got started. Somebody, obviously with money 35:13 EG: Right [laugh] 35:13 MS: [laugh] 35:13 HS: And it was called Fruit Grower’s State Bank. 35:15 EG: Right 35:17 HS: Which this is the fruit grower’s country big time in those days 35:20 EG: mm hm. W—ah, What do think attracted his attention? What do you think is about you that he called your dad to ask him to hire you, to do that? 35:27 HS: I must have been working hard 35:28 EG: yeah. �35:28 MS [laugh] 35:29 HS: And cheap 35:31 EG: You had your act together right? Industrious and 35:34 HS: Well, well I did do, I did paper route in Douglas, out of Douglas, uh, I could do that in the mornings because paper route was in the afternoon. I used to be able to spend time with the kids out on the lakeshore. I played some golf with the kids on the lakeshore for a while, when the weather was nice. I worked at the golf course 35:55 EG: mm hm 35:56 HS: uh, he asked us to help clean up places a few times and, most of the time, caddy. That was the only thing I ever did. I didn’t enjoy that too much, because that was a lot of work for the money, uh, I don’t know, anyway. There was a lot of little things we could be to make money, but the bank approach kind of stabilized some income. 36:15 EG: Yeah. 36:16 HS: And you didn’t go to work till 9, which I could still go hunting in the morning in the fall. Which is what we did at school. We used to go hunting before we could, duck hunting or something before. 36:27 EG: Yeah. 36:27 HS: [clear throat] so we had, we had a lot of opportunities if you wanted to work. The kids were, as it is now work, you can work at various entities. There was an entertainment center down on the water front, and on the weekends part now um (pause) um, the paddleboat was built down there, Dick Hoffen built the paddle boat original paddle boat for Saugatuck. He started that business. 36:51 EG: This was the Island Queen? 36:53 HS: Island Queen 36: 54 EG: Uh huh 36:55 HS: Queen One. Yup. 36:55 EG: Yeah. [laugh] 36:57 HS: So yeah. We had a lot of the things. There was kids that worked down there. An interesting thing came when I got into college, um, my dad could get me on the summer time �job routine after I quit the bank at 18. He could get me into the jobs in Douglas, Douglas Garage because the county, the county had a program for student replacement of regulars so the regulars could go on vacation. 37:24 EG: Yeah. 37: 24 HS: Because they had a hard, hard winter, you know? 37: 25 EG: Right 37: 27 HS: The regulars could go on vacation. They had a limit on how much money you could make, and, um, uh, I ended up working for my dad for couple summers for the county from as soon as I could get out in May to uh 37: 40 EG: yeah 37: 41 HS: End of September or early August. Then I had other jobs lined up. I could work the, work the farm with my dad. I picked fruit a lot of summers, even from a teenaged level. Cherries and apples and stuff. And, uh, I worked at a gas station out here which was Ray Owzakaski’s (?) gas station. There used to be a mobile station where the buses are, bus barn is. There was a big mobile station which crashed a couple of years. It finally went up and folded in and they condemned the building and took it all down. It was a school bus barn building. 38: 12 EG: yeah. 38:13 HS: That’d been a mobile gas station. 38:15 EG: Ok 38: 15 HS: And I worked there sum, uh, uh, summers. Part time. You know, a lot of weekends and whenever they needed me. And my dad could call me for the county because we’d have Rick’s on 31. Big Rick’s had picked up 38:27 EG: Yeah. 38:27 HS: Steel trucks and campers and whatever else, and he’d have to have somebody get to tow it away 38:33 EG: Right 38:34 HS: To get the road cleaned up again. 38:36 EG: What, what kind of work, say a little bit more about the work you did at the road commission working with your dad. �38:45 HS: Well with a truck the first year I came home, we’d had the tornado that came through and wiped out the Oval. And it went up through the dunes. It took out the lighthouse 38:58 EG: Right 38:58 HS: The original light house, and went over the dunes and out into Laketown Township. And it wiped out a family (pause) I’d have to think about that a little bit. It wiped out a family’s home out there and a baby was involved. And the baby they were looking for the baby and we, there was a lot of trouble there, you know. For a while, I was still in school. It was in early May. As soon as I got out of school I came home and the first thing that we did was got on tree crew, tree crew to clean up tree stuff and to help fix up those roads that way. So I’m driving trucks. 39:34 EG: Yeah 39:35 HS: Stuff I’ve never done before. Chainsaws 39:36 EG: yeah. 39:37 HS: Yeah. Two hand chainsaws and 39:39 EG: Right 39:39 HS: Stuff I never did before. Go do it anyway. So that was part of it. Then haul dirt, haul brush, haul loads. We used to use a lot of gravel from gravel pits in Allegan, to bring them out and fill gravel roads and fill potholes and fix things. One year, the second year, the bank and caved out on the lakeshore. Uh, it’s been repaired since. You know where the bank cave in is now? Where the road runs on the lakeshore? 40:06 EG: yeah. 40:06 HS: Do you know that? 40:08 EG: mmhmm 40:08 HS: Well before you get there, there was another spot that it caved in. Big time. 40:12 EG: Ok 40:13 HS: If you, um, just before 130, just north of 130th. Where that high spot is? That whole spot had caved away right to the front yard of those houses. And at that time, somebody got together and the ideas together to stabilize the bank. And we dumped everything we could dump down there. Rebuild that. So yeah, I did a lot of truck driving, that’s probably be a big thing. �40:38 EG: Right. 40:38 HS: I did that at the beach, and I did a whole lot of other things. 40:41 EG: Right yeah. 40:41 HS: Road side, road side pickup. That’s interesting. Road side pickup included the parks that ran on the side of the high way, the junk that now us groups do. 40:52 EG: yeah. 40:52 HS: Well anyway, we’d go along either shotgun or drive. We’d take turns. One guy sit on the bumper with a pitchfork. Really 41:04 EG: Right 41:04 HS: And you’d have the tarp and you’d hook it into the back of the truck. 41:07 EG: Right 41:07 HS: That was one of the things. Then you’d empty the barrels when you’d get to one of the road side parks. In the town here there’s one, and you know, township park and we’d hit the park system along the lakeshore. And we’d patch roads. That was another big job was patching, walk behind the truck and patch the little hole. So lot of, lot of stuff, but yeah, that was very interesting. Um, I ended up when I got back and I got to work at the club. Now this other side, but I worked at the club we had a road side pickup 41:39 EG: At the Rod and gun club? Yeah. 41:42 HS: We ended up when I was working when I joined the club, one on of the things they did was road side pickup. So I said “Oh I can help out because that’s my area. That’s the area I live in.” And, uh, so pretty soon the guy retired that was doing it, and I ended up doing it. So I’ve been coordinating that effort for the club for years now. But, it’s been twelve years. 42:03 EG: Old experiences come in handy 42:05 HS: Old, experiences picking up garbage 42:08 EG: Aside from working at the road commission when you were back in the summers from college, what where some of the others things that you got up to? 42:15 HS: I worked at the gas station. �42:18 EG: Yeah 42:19 HS: Yep, put me out there because Ray Orzawoski was a racer, and the Douglas race track he raced at. There were several local guys that thought they could race and there was a $25 night for it they could make it to the showing 42:34 EG: Say that name of the garage owner again 42:37 HS: Ray Orzawoski was co owner 42:40 EG: ok 42:40 HS: with Ross Jennings 42:41 EG: Or- or 42:42 HS: It was Jennings garage it was 42:42 EG: Ok. Gotcha. All right. 42:45 HS: And Ray was the mechanic, engine mechanic 42:47 EG: Got it. 42:47 HS: And he’d take engines out of cars he’d wreck one week and put them in another one and be ready to go the next week. 42:52 EG: Right 42:52 HS: And he was c, called the flying Polack because he had a pension for flying off the top end with no guard rails on the track. With no safety. And he’d fly off the top end and wind up in the woods out there. And, of course, that wrecked his car, so he had to find another one. So 34, 34 Ford Coups were piled up behind the place there. 43:15 EG: [laugh] that was the car of choice 43:15 MS: [laugh] 43:16 HS: yeah. 43:16 EG: Was that for him, or for most people? Was that common car? 43:19 HS: Well it was very �43:21 EG: common? 43:22 HS: Very common race car in those days 43:23 EG: Yeah 43:24 HS: But, um, but the situation was, Boss Jennings, the senior, and I can’t remember Floyd, Floyd Jennings had uh, had uh, retired. He had a hip problem, and he had retired to Arizona and stuff. So he, um, [clear throat] he gave it to his brother and Ray bought fifty/fifty of that station. His brother was, boss was uh, what was his name? I can’t remember his name, but they called him boss. And he was P. O.’d because Ray spent all his time working on the cars. And in those days they still serviced cars. 43:59 EG: Right 44:00 HS: So you went and pumped gas and cleaned the windshield and checked the oil and all that stuff. So I did that changed oils and made wrecker runs and stuff like that, just basically. But I got called away by my dad several times because a big wreck house trailer got smashed up here by Holland and pieces all over the road, the road blocked and that kind of thing. 44:22 EG: yeah 44:23 HS: Big steel truck in the south somehow got jack knifed and scattered steel, steel I remember that. I still got pieces of that around in the house. Little pieces, squares of steel. 44:37 EG: yeah. 44:37 HS: And they were laying all over place out there. And you had to, to pick the up, you couldn’t use gloves. You had to pick them up with your bare hands and pull them out of the road. 44:45 EG: wow 44:46 HS: And uh, anyway nice little welding 44:49 EG: Right. Good project pieces, right? 44:50 HS: good project pieces, right. 44:51 EG: [laugh] 44:54 HS: so anyway, that was, you know, I got called in to help that out so I could get paid on overtime, my dad could get the overtime, I mean, I could get the overtime. �45:01 EG: Yeah. 45:01 HS: And I gave him all the money so that whatever, uh, I needed for, 45:06 EG: For college 45:08 HS: college was 45:08 EG: yeah. 45:09 HS: was there 45:10 EG: All taken care of, yeah. Did you ever race any cars? Did you go to races? 45:13 HS: Well yeah, but that was a lot later. That was after I got out of college. 45:16 EG: ok 45:17 HS: That wasn’t here. That was after I got with Ford 45:19 EG: Ok. Gotcha. Uh, more, more about summer. I heard somewhere along the way you had worked at the Dock. 45:26 HS: yeah, I worked at the Dock, that was, that was one of those had three jobs going counting, counting the summer jobs. I ended up with the county one time, and I worked the gas station on certain weekends at night. That was only 8-5 or so. 45:43 EG: Ok 45:43 HS: In evenings I could for the Dock. And I had a good family member, some family member I would say, secondary family member 45:52 EG: yeah. 45:53 HS: Uh, in the bar. And I was only 18 or 19, I’m not sure which. I could do setups and stock the bar and all that sort of thing, had me checking age. And that was, that was ok, except, you know, here I kind of looked pretty young at the time. And you meet some guys that were half drunk trying to get into the Dock. 46:13 EG: mmhm 46:13 MS: yeah. �46:16 HS: And I had some, tough arguments a couple, three times. And the boss would send me, the boss was a chicken. 46:24 EG: [laugh] put you in the line of fire so 46:26 HS: put me in the line of fire. I’m out there doing that. 46:29 EG: Yeah. What, just describe a little bit what the Dock was like uh, 46:34 HS: It was a very good restaurant. Good steaks. Good prime ribs and stuff. And it was at the dock level where the boats where you’d walk and the windows, well the windows weren’t all open but there was a couple of them. The boats could come in, but basically that was under control, but the interesting part was that, some of the boats, well, those were party days. Some of the boats would hire the band. And there was a boat that I always wanted to get on. And the job business kind of got me out of right there. There, do you know what a PT boat is? 47:09 EG: mmhm. Yeah. From world war two 47:10 HS: From World War Two 47:11 EG: The Mosquito Boats 47:12 HS: There was a World War Two PT boat coming in from Wisconsin. The owner was supposedly Slits Brewry (?). And he was coming in, had a jeep on back, on the back, and he had a plane on the back with, with a davit, so he could drop the jeep on the dock and the jeep would come up the dock to buy groceries, there were a lot of little grocery stores in those days 47:34 EG: Yeah. 47:34 HS: And a beautiful blonde with a monkey, a real monkey on the windshield of his jeep, a purple jeep 47:43 EG: [laugh] 47: 43 MS: [laugh] 47:44 HS: Or pink. Not sure purple 47:46 EG: Yeah 47:49 HS: And this blonde was a knock out. And, uh, she was a good passenger. And everybody knew about her. 47:50 EG: Toured around in this jeep. �47:57 HS: Too bad there weren’t more cameras in town in those days. Nobody had any but the little brownie box cameras, you know? 48:02 EG: Yeah, I’ve never seen a photo of this before. It sounds pretty entertaining. 48:05 HS: Very entertaining. She’d come up and, you know, wave at people 48:09 EG: They’d come up with some frequency then? From across the lake? 48:12 HS: They were, they’d come once, and I’m not sure about years even. But one year they came a couple of times. They’d stay for a period of time. I’m not sure if they were dock limited or if they were just limited, because one time I saw them, I saw him put the, uh, (?) in water, you know like a piper cub 48:30 EG: Mmhm. Yeah 48:31 HS: And it, it had a little bit more power. It had the big the big floats on it. 48:35 EG: Yeah. 48:36 HS: He’d put that in the water with the davit, he’d hook it on up to the 48:38 EG: mmhm. Yeah. 48:39 HS: Put it in the water. And he’d go putzing up the river, pick it up, uh, way up above the bridge and try to get up in the air and take off to stay away from the town because he took forever to get in the air. 48:52 EG: Yeah. That’s a lot of drag. 48:54 HS: yeah. Do you remember, do you remember the Eddy Deveter(?) story with CV? Do you remember that story? 49:00 EG: I’m not sure of that one. 49:03 HS: Well, at that time, you showed the other night, that, uh, hotel on the side of the lake? 49:11 EG: yeah. 49:15 HS: With the story with the party? What was it? Blue Moon? 49:20 EG: The Blue Tempo? �49:20 MS: Blue Tempo 49:21 HS: Blue Tempo? 49:21 EG: Yeah. The Blue Tempo Bar? 49:22 HS: The Blue Tempo was originally owned by Eddy Deveter (?) It was the Ed, was the Ed Mar Hotel 49:28 EG: Ok. Right. Ok. 49:29 HS: That was the Ed mar Hotel (?) 49:30 EG: Right. 49:30 HS: Well Eddy, Deveter (?) his name was, 49:33 EG: yeah. 49:33 HS: Ended up building the place over on the other side, after they sold that. But, over on the other side meaning Park Street. Off of Park Street. But it burned immediately. Anyway, um, the um, I had a CB, they’re a pusher, plane 49:52 EG: Ok. Yeah. 49:53 HS: You can look that up 49:54 EG: I’ve seen that. 49:55 HS: look that up. 49:55 EG: No, I know what you’re talking about. 49:56 HS: Ok. 49:57 EG: Exactly. Yeah. 49:58 HS: It was a pusher. 49:59 EG: Yeah. �49:59 HS: And it flown like a rock. Cause it took forever to get that thing going. And I used to fish, periodically, out there on the, when I had time. This was not, uh, concurrent, you know, let’s say with working 50:11 EG: Right 50:12 HS: Ok 50:13 EG: Yeah, yeah [throat clear] 50:16 HS: In probably the earlier years he was there, well it had been it the earlier forties he came back from the war. He was a war vet. And he’d fly up the river and take off, and then he’d come down and he’d come roaring through under the bridge, which was a short wind rock. And to get the thing into the air when we’d have north west winds over bald head and in that area. He had to rip his tail off for it. He had such a horrible roar all through the valley here getting that thing up in the air. He flew that a lot, and Jack’s got some good pictures some good memories of that. Cause he was around and saw some of that. I don’t remember all of the years now. 50:57 EG: Ok 50:57 HS: He was around for two or three years, and he sold that hotel, and I never did know about that. I knew the guy that owned it. Blue Tempo was owned by Toad Davis 51:08 EG: yeah. 51:09 HS: [clear throat] 51:11 EG: Yeah. Have a drink of water there. Have a drink 51:13 HS: yeah. Uh. Toad Davis ended up living right behind me. He had a 51:19 EG: Ok 51:20 HS: His mother built a house, his mother, his mother built her house up on Water Street 51:23 EG: Ok. 51:24 sounds of water pouring 51:30 EG: Toad’s come up in a few interviews 51:32 MS: Yeah 51:33 EG: Uh, kind of talk about the jazz scene here in Saugatuck �51:38 HS: Well there was uh, 51:39 EG: Acts he had in there 51:40 HS: Yeah. There were a lot of bi- bi- genders around here in those days. A lot of them. 51:47 EG: Yeah 51:47 HS: And it was not coming out like it was recently you know, it wasn’t so obvious. 51:54 EG: hmm 51:55 HS: Era that we’re in now. There is, you know 51:57 EG: more openness 51:57 MS: Yeah 51:58 EG: more openness about 52:00 HS: openness 52:00 EG: gay people 52:01 HS: yeah. So that was, there were, um, and there was a lot of entertainment needed, you know, they were willing to do it. Toad, Toad Davis was, like I say, nicest guy. He wanted, I knew him, but he was older than I was. He was a war vet too that came back, Korean War, probably talking most the 52:21 EG: Ok. 52:22 HS: guys that I knew of 52:24 EG: yea 52:24 HS: They were older than I, but, you know, not that far. 52:28 EG: Similar age grouping 52:29 HS: You know back when we were in high school, there were guys that, you know, my, my um, I called him my mentor for basketball. I just copied his style and ended up with his shirt number. He was a tall, lanky guy. He and I are still in touch with the Facebook. Um, long, lanky �guy. Ran kind of awkwardly like I think I do (laugh), and you know, same kind of style baskets and, I had a secret hook that I learned from watching him. 53:05 EG: uh huh. Yeah. 53:06 HS: And anyway, it was, it was fun to, uh, to see some of those guys came back and talked to us while we were still in school and gave clues, you know. They’d been in and out. 53:15 EG: yeah 53:16 HS: of the army. They’d got their three years in and were out. 53:18 EG: Yeah. 53:20 HS: So it was fun to hear those stories. (?) a couple of those guys. 53:23 EG: Yeah. Yeah. So. Um, yeah. Kind of thinking back to the dock. You mentioned, that’s a great story about the PT boat and 53:34 HS: Well the PT boat ended up coming and going, and one night, see this was all toward the end of summer on the day was a big shoot out. Fourth of July was one. 53:47 EG: mmhmm 53:47 HS: Labor Day was too 53: 49 EG: yeah. 53:49 HS: Uh, those boats would get together and have big parties and everything going and um, they were going to have the band, after we closed, go on the boat out 54:02 EG: mmhm. Yeah. Out, out into the, out into Kalamazoo Lake? 54:05 HS: out in the river 54:05 EG: out in the river? Out to Lake Michigan? 54:06 HS: Out to Lake Michigan 54:08 EG: yeah 54:09 HS: And this was starting at like two, three o’clock in the morning because my job ended up right about then after clean up. And then I had to go to work at, I think it was seven or eight in the morning. I don’t remember now. At the gas station �54:22 EG: yeah. 54:23 HS: Uh, and I was whipped after two, three weeks of this kind of schedule 54:27 EG: yeah. 54:27 HS: And, uh, so I didn’t go 54:29 EG: did, didn’t go out on the boat. 54:30 HS: Didn’t go out in that boat. 54:33 EG: [laugh] hard, hard to hold responsibility you had there. Sounds like. 54:37 HS: Well it was a tough choice. That was one of my toughest choices in those days. 54:42 EG: [laugh] prob, probably not easy to tell your dad you’re not going to go to work the next day or 54:48 HS: Well it wasn’t it wasn’t Sunday night. It was a Saturday night. 54:52 EG: yeah. Ok. 54:53 HS: So my weekends were I worked on the gas station. 54:54 EG: Ok 54:55 HS: Saturday and Sunday 54:56 EG: yeah. 54:56 HS: the daylight hours 54:58 EG: yeah. Right. What, uh, what were I mean, what were some of the things you saw, or in what were parties like or what 55:07 HS: Well, one of the things that was in the dock that, that was pretty common was a lot of drunkeness, and a lot of semisexual activity. 55:15 EG: Ok. 55:16 MS: [laugh] �55:18 HS: I mean they weren’t, uh, weren’t shy. People weren’t shy in those days. 55:20 EG: Right. 55:21 HS: If some guy was putting the make on this girl and had her pretty well ready for, uh, operation, little, uh, 55:28 EG: Ok 55:29 HS: And the boss saw me and “Show some— got get him” 55:35 slapping noises against hard surface (table?) 55:36 HS: And I got over there and take him apart 55:39 MS: [laugh] 55:39 EG: yeah. Tough job as 18, 19 year old, right? You know, “Excuse me, sir” 55:45 HS: yeah. 55:46 EG: Did you throw them out or did you just tell them act more appropriate or? 55:49 HS: I, I, I said that’s not appropriate or something to that effect. And I got him to back off and take her out of there. 55:59 EG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of, kind of wild times. What were, uh, at the, oh, at the Docks specifically? What did people drink in those days? 56:09 HS: Seven and Seven was big. Switz beer was big and so was Stroll’s 56:16 EG: These were on draft or bottles? 56:18 HS: bottles. We didn’t do draft. 56:19 EG: yeah. 56:21 HS: But I, I could mix the seven and sevens. Gin buck was good. Do you know what a gin buck is? Gin 56:25 EG: I don’t 56: 26 HS: Gin and tonic �56:27 EG: Ok. All right. 56:27 MS: [laugh] 56:28 HS: Gin buck, uh, were common. Yeah. I could do the mix ups 56:32 EG: yeah. 56:34 HS: But not put the liquor in. 56:34 MS: Ah 56:35 EG: Got cha. Got cha. 56:36 HS: And serve the people. So whenever I was not stocking and getting empty beer bottles, I was putting cold ones in. 56:42 EG: Right 56:44 HS: Uh, doing everything. 56:45 EG: Yeah. Where were folks from that were, that were in there summer time? 56:48 HS: There were a lot of people from Illinois. Uh, it was rare to find people from Chic, from the east side of the state. But one of the girls I met was from Dearborn. 57:00 EG: Ok. Yeah. 57:02 HS: But not very many. Not very many. A lot of them out of Allegan, Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, and Chicago, obviously, Chicago, oh and Indiana. That was big. And those motorcycles they talked about [throat clear]. All I remember is my wife’s from Detroit, but she came over here with me a lot in our early years, and she remembers seeing a lot of motorcycles in the sixties and seventies too. We got married in fifty-eight or so, fifty-nine (pause). But I was thinking. We used to run into, when I was motorcycle riding, we used to run into these Bless the Motorcycle rallies. These guys get together by the hundreds, these, clubs. They’d go to party some places. And it just depended on where they decided to party. You know, it’s like, they’d do a preview, and I’d run into them a couple of times up north. More, more than, probably three times at least up north. I know they used to come to Saugatuck once in a while. 58:02 EG: yeah 58:02 HS: you could get a big, big gang 58:03 EG: right �58:04 HS: Otherwise they were all impromptu. Uh, used to work came over on his own, so you know, the guys that rode the motorcycles were here by the fifties, sixties was the magnet. 58:17 EG: Hm, that was, yeah, we heard that from a few people that that was the big motorcycle place there or destination. 58:24 HS: yeah. 58: 25 EG: yeah. For sure. Were there other places like, sounds like once you were older that you went out to aside from working at the dock that you go to and see friends or have drinks and listen to music? 58:35 HS: Well, as soon as, um, I dated a couple of couple of different gals, and there was a dancehall down by Paw Paw. 58:45 EG: Ok. 58:47 HS: That was a nice thing. There was another one up at um, Spring Lake. Dancehalls. These were World Wars two ex- bands and/ or new/ old bands. Kind of rejuvenating. 59:00 EG: yeah. 59:01 HS: And those dance halls were, were fun to go to. At least I didn’t dance much but 59:05 EG: Yeah. That was through (?) music 59:09 HS: I, I liked the music yeah. I was very much in favor of the music. Still am. 59:14 EG: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Uh, what about some of the musical acts you had? You mentioned the band going out on the boat at two o’clock in the morning at the dock. What were some of the acts you had there at the dock? 59:25 HS: uh 59:25 EG: Or kinds of music you had? What were they playing? 59:29 HS: I couldn’t tell you. You know? It, it, it was more or less popular. And a lot of it was World War Two based. 59:35 EG: Ok 59:36 HS: And these bands at least, at least one of the people I know, um, was a piano player and he stayed there full time. Lived, lived here in Saugatuck afterwards �59:48 EG: Ok 59:48 HS: He, he bought a place, the other place was 59:50 EG: Do you remember his name or act was? 59:52 HS: His name was Bill Johnson 59:54 EG: Ok. 59:54 MS: Ok. 59:55 HS: His name was Johnson, yeah. He’s long gone, but he bought a place out in the woods by us, and I knew him. We got permission to go, to go and hunt out on his property because he had nice property out there. In fact I got a deer out on his property 1:00:07 EG: Wow. [laugh] 1:00:08 HS: Oh yeah. That um, that was kind of nice and then, I don’t know if you hear this but there was a group of band players [clear throat] who used to stop on their way back to Chicago, or, specifically, came to play at the What Not Inn 1:00:27 EG: Ok. 1:00:28 HS: And one of the band players was an orchestra pit band player. These aren’t top names all the time. 1:00:34 EG: Sure. 1:00:35 HS: But she always would play with her back to the orchestra-to the, the audience. 1:00:40 EG: didn’t want that, wasn’t used to all that action. 1:00:45 HS: She had her friends, partners, they were, uh L, uh, anyways she was down here for quite a few years. 1:00:52 EG: Ok. And what years was this? 1:00:54 HS: hmm? 1:00:56 EG: What years would that have been roughly? (pause) 1:01:02 HS: Would have been into the sixties. �1:01:03 EG: Ok. 1:01:04 HS: Could have been sixties. My, my, a lot of my experience here left me in sixty-five ‘cause we went out of the country for a few years. 1:01:12 EG: yeah. 1:01:12 HS: That’s a big hole in my history around this town. 1:01:16 EG: Gotcha. So I have to clarify just some stuff. So you graduated here in 53 and went to Indiana and went off to school or back, back and forth in the summers? 1:01:25 HS: Yep 1:01:25 EG: Stories with that, uh, graduated with, moved back to this area, or, what, what happened? 1:01:32HS: No, I went to work for Ford Motor Company in Dearborn. 1:01:36 EG: Oh, o. 1:01:37 HS: Dearborn Engineering. 1:01:39 EG: Ok. At the headquarters there, or? 1:01:40 HS: Well it was the engineering center 1:01:42 EG: Ok. Yeah. 1:01:44 HS: I wasn’t at headquarters till later years. 1:01:47 EG: Ok. Gotcha. And then uh, so you were travelling coming back here to spend time with family and spend time here. 1:01:53 HS: yeah, yeah. We had a lot of family around here and they were, they were in their senior years of course. 1:02:00 EG: Ok. 1:02:00 HS: We were losing them. 1:02:02 EG: how, how often did you make the trip from Dearborn to here, like to the west side of the state? �1:02:07 HS: I’d do that every two weeks if I could 1:02:10 EG: Yeah. 1:02:10 HS: We had other friends to visit. My wife’s family was a large family, so we had a lot of things to do over there. 1:02:18 EG: Yeah. And they were from Dearborn? That area? Detroit area? 1:02:21 HS: Uh, yeah, Lincoln Park or wester Dearborn area. And they were a close knit family. Big family. So we had, we had a lot of places to go and do things. When we went out of the country for a while, that was, we were gone four years. Um, the kids were getting to the point to see Grandpa and Grandma, and I said I think it’s time to get back home, so. I cut my overseas potential overseas stay and down 1:02:50 EG: Where, where were you now? 1:02:52 HS: I was in Venezuela. But I was being asked to go to Ecuador, and uh, 1:02:57 EG: yeah 1:02:58 HS: Chile 1:02:59 EG: All right. 1:02:59 HS: And I think in Argentina. In that time it was, it was sort of stable but it was starting to get into that big hiccup with, with the economy. 1:03:09 EG: mmhm. Yeah. For sure. So you’d come over here ever couple, once or twice a month you’d make the drive over. And then, uh, did you spend extended time here during the summer or, you know? Vacations? 1:03:21 HS: No. no. When I was travelling I could bring my wife and kids over, and they’d stay with my folks. And then they could do that, and I could fly out of Grand Rapids and go to Arizona or wherever I had to go. California. But, uh, I was in testing. So that meant working with the vehicles, you know, wherever I needed to be used. 1:03:42 EG: Right. 1:03:43 HS: How I needed to be used. 1:03:44 EG: Right. Yeah. Very interesting. Tell us a little bit about your wife and your children. �1:03:51 HS: Well my wife was, I met her at Ford. She was a secretary in the Berkley division which I hired into initially. And uh, we all, had a big party, a lot of fun went on for years there. Skiing, actually. And uh, snow skiing that is. And, uh, she had been coming over to here and going to Florida and doing some of the things that some of my friends had, so. It was really natural. And we had, um, three girls. And they all grew up coming over here regularly. They used to call the original drug store here in Douglas the candy store. It was Jack and Eva Tyler, took over from Norton when Norton’s, did you ever hear Norton name before? 1:04:41 EG: Heard that name 1:04:43 HS: Norton had the, the drug store. Big two story, on the corner. Right down the block here. Just, just right down the block. Just, the post office is past here. And then the next street is the, I don’t even know what that store is, that building on the left is now, but that building was the new drug store. The old drug store was the next two story. And 1:05:14 MS: Ok. 1:05:14 HS: And, and Mr. Norton’s drug store used to have a soda bar and everything. But there was something in half of it that I don’t remember what it was. But when he died, the store, they sold it. And I think the Catholic Church bought it and put it into a Catholic School. I think that’s the order of things. And Jack and Eva Tyler bought the drug store part, rights, and they built the building next door. And that became the candy store. All it was, was candy and papers, and that’s where I worked out of, the drug, bring those papers and stuff. 1:05:56 EG: Ok 1:05:56 MS: Oh. 1:05:57 HS: But I remember, when I was in my downtown years, uh, sitting up at the counter and getting a chocolate sundae at the Norton’s drug store there. 1:06:07 EG: Yeah. 1:06:08 HS: Like a (?) drug. And finally the Saugatuck drugstore duplicated that system years later when they built the, rebuilt the back of the store. They put a counter in there. You ever, I don’t know if they still do that or not. 1:06:26 EG: I don’t know. I haven’t been there to see it yet. 1:06:27 HS: They put, they put an old fashioned drug store counter in there. 1:06:31 MS: That’s awesome 1:06:32 EG: yeah. �1:06:32 HS: So it isn’t, you know. Ice cream sundaes and ice cream (?) stuff. So anyway we, the kids know that, and we took them, we used to go to Gosemer Lake swimming because that was semi, well. It was not public. It was private. And they started charging ten cents for a person to go in there. And you could go swimming there, and it was calm, and the water was warm 1:07:01EG: Mmhm. Yeah. Yeah. That seems like it was quite the destination those years. Gosemer Lake resort. Yeah. 1:07:10 HS: Mhm. It was very popular. 1:07:11 EG: What, uh, what was your wife’s name? What was her 1:07:14 HS: Paula 1:07:14 EG: Paula. And her maiden name? 1:07:16 HS: Martin 1:07:17 EG: Martin. 1:07:18 HS: Mmhm 1:07:19 EG: And then your daughters, you said you had two daughters 1:07:20 HS: Three 1:07:20 EG: Three. Three daughters. And what are there names? 1:07:23 HS: Sandra, Julie, and Christine. 1:07:28 EG: Are they, are they on the east side of the state still, or did they settle in other places? 1:07:30 HS: Well they, uh, Sandra, the oldest, she lives in the Detroit area now. She’s in northern Detroit. 1:07:35 EG: Ok. 1:07:36 HS: Uh by Wayne county, Wayne, uh, Wayne uh, State University. 1:07:41 EG: Oh, ok. 1:07:42 HS: And she’s had a lot of career choices and moved around quite a bit. �1:07:48 EG: Right. 1:07:49 HS: She’s still not married. And the middle one, Julie, she has a place out here in Douglas, on the Douglas lakeshore. 1:07:56 EG: Oh. 1:07:57 HS: And she brings all, the whole family together when she’s here. And then Christina’s in Florida, Gainesville. And she has a place, uh, in Saint Augustine, so when we go to Florida we, uh, have them making a big loop down there with our friends and family. Sandy was in Saint Aug, Saint Augustine also. 1:08:17 EG: yeah 1:08:17 HS: And then she was in, uh, Fort Lauderdale for quite a while too. 1:08:22 EG: mmhm. 1:08:22 HS: And that was a nice, nice area to go visit in the winter time. We’ve been managing to make a tour for years and, we’ve kind of slowed things down the way things are going now. 1:08:32 EG: right. Yeah. For sure 1:08:34 HS: Grandkids and college, that changed our timetable entirely. Couldn’t just go on Spring Break anymore. There was no such thing as a spring break. They’re all on spring break all the time it seems like. 1:08:46 EG: right. Different schedules I know where you’re at. For sure. 1:08:50 HS: you, you agree 1:08:51 MS: Oh yeah 1:08:51 EG: mmhm 1:08:53 HS: It’s weird, trying to, trying to Spring Break time. 1:08:57 MS: No, every place does it at a different time so. Yeah. Few different schools here, and it feels like it’s constantly spring break 1:09:03 HS: yeah. 1:09:04 MS: For different schools. [laugh] �1:09:06 HS: So that um, pretty much covers uh, those years. Ford years are a whole thing that I don’t intend to get into. 1:09:15 EG: Maybe for, maybe for another interview we could sit down and talk about that. Uh, thinking about summers. Thinking about change over time. We touched on it a little bit. You mentioned, um, you mentioned, um, the sort of LGBT population and gay folks 1:09:35 HS: more forward 1:09:35 EG: in the community and, more, more out in the open. Do you remember much, you talked about, uh, Toad Davis’ place the Blue Tempo and that, what was, what was kind of the community reactions to that, or were there really none? 1:09:49 HS: Just none, yeah really that I’m aware of, let’s put it that way. 1:09:53 EG: yeah. 1:09:54 HS: There may have been a few people offended but, you know, we saw a lot of them, uh in our younger days. Palling around here. Um, I never saw anything that was obsessively, um, outward let’s say. The only thing you might want to find out about, have you ever seen any pictures of the conglomeration of little tents down by the Oval? 1:10:20 EG: I’ve not. 1:10:23 MS: No 1:10:23 EG: I’m not sure what you’re, not sure what you mean there. 1:10:25 HS: Gosh I wish I had a picture. North of the Oval, while it was still Dennyson property 1:10:31 EG: Right 1:10:33 HS: They had to block off the whole area. They had a gate because those guys would take off and put their little tents up 1:10:39 EG: Is this, like a nude bathing area? 1:10:41 HS: Nude bathing area 1:10:42 EG: yeah 1:10:43 HS: big section all the way down to what now is part of Saugatuck. That whole area. �1:10:48 EG: yeah 1:10:49 HS: And the dunes were covered with them. 1:10:50 EG: Ok 1:10:50 HS: With these little tents 1:10:52EG: Yeah 1:10:54 HS: Little two man tents 1:10:55 EG: Right 1:10:56 HS: And they were in the water without suits. Hugging and kissing and the whole works. Quite a bunch of them. 1:11:03 EG: Right 1:11:03 HS: And it was a little bit upsetting to me because we were boaters at that time. 1:11:07 EG: yeah 1:11:08 HS: And, uh, but they stayed together. They were to themselves. They didn’t seem to, that I know of 1:11:15 EG: yeah 1:11:15 HS: Cause any issues. But um, we, uh, had our kids out there. You know, three girls are kind of interested in what was going on in those days. So the binoculars 1:11:27 EG: Right [laugh] One more challenge from the water with kids is, hard to answer questions 1:11:34 HS: Yeah, I don’t know how we explained it. You know. Kids, kids got to expect it. Cause we went once and then we, you know, every weekend we could we’d get out on the lake and go for a ride 1:11:46 EG: And this would have been in the early 1960’s? Late 1950’s? 1:11:48 HS: Well 1:11:48 EG: What kind of time period �1:11:49 HS: Well Sandy was born in 59, it would have been late 60’s 1:11:54 EG: yeah 1:11:54 HS: Oh not, excuse me, it couldn’t we were out of town. Out of the country. Late (pause), early seventies probably would have been the latest we would have seen that. Cause when we came back from Venezuela, uh, I got a boat. We had a house trailer before then. I sold it, and we got a boat, and, um we took some travel things, and we got in the boat about 70. So early 70’s. And um, that’s when we were out there. And the kids were bigger then. A lot bigger. 1:12:29 EG: Yeah. 1:12:29 HS: you know, teenagers 1:12:30 EG: right 1:12:30 HS: Getting to be, the oldest one was 1:12:34 EG: yeah 1:12:34HS: You know and just about the second was. So we had that boat for a little while and then soon they were in college. And I couldn’t afford boats and cars and colleges and 1:12:41 EG: Sure 1:12:31 MS: Yeah. That makes sense 1:12:46 EG: That, that happens. Do you remember, was there talk about that in town, the, the nude 1:12:51 HS: you know, I can’t say that we were in town 1:12:54EG: yeah 1:12:54 HS: because we were out of town in the 60’s. 1:12:56 EG: Right 1:12:57 HS: And then in the 70’s and 80’s we were family. The only time we came over was to stay at my folks place and 1:13:02 EG: Right 1:13:03 HS: And they were still alive then. �1:13:05 EG: yeah. 1:13:05 HS: My dad died in 72, so we were through the 70’s pretty much at that house up on the hill, and we ended up selling it in the 80’s. 1:13:16 EG: yeah. Very interesting. Wealth of, wealth of information. Did you have any questions that you wanted to ask? Was there anything? 1:13:24 MS: Um 1:13:25 EG: We talked about a lot of different things here today 1:13:28 MS: Yeah. Yeah. 1:13:30 HS: Well I, um, got a little out of line with some of them, but thinking 1:13:34 EG: Not at all 1:13:34 HS: the sequence of events 1:13:35 EG: Not at all. 1:13:37HS: But, um, you know we used to have a lot of interesting, interesting things going on in Douglas. We used to have dancing. That was fun. 1:13:43 MS: Oh really? 1:13:44 HS: I remember bringing my first girlfriend over to show to my folks, go square dancing. 1:13:53 EG: Where was that? Where did that happen? 1:13:54 HS: On the tennis courts down there. 1:13:55 EG: Ok. Just right on the, right out in town 1:13:57 HS: Yeah, I don’t even think they’ve got tennis now anymore. Or maybe they do 1:13:58 MS: Don’t think so? 1:14:01 HS: I think they tore that one out too 1:14:02 MS: yeah. �1:14:02 EG: I think so 1:14:04 HS: Geez! 1:14:05 EG: yeah. Changes. Yeah. 1:14:06 MS: Yeah. 1:14:07 HS: they really, I don’t approve of what they did to the park to be honest with you. It’s playground now. I don’t know if that’s what it was meant to be or not, but that’s what they wanted (pause) my kids liked tennis! They all got into tennis. They learned at Douglas Park out if you, have you ever been out to Douglas Park? 1:14:28 MS: mm, I think I’ve gone by it, but I haven’t, like driven past it. 1:14:32 HS: Now it’s going to, now it’s got, what do you call it? Wiffle--- pickle ball. 1:14:36 EG: Oh right! 1:14:36 HS: They got pickle ball courts out there. They switched to pickle ball. I guess somebody donated a lot of money to convert the tennis courts. 1:14:42 EG: It’s a popular sport, it’s really taken off 1:14:45 MS: yeah. 1:14: 45 HS: It’s popular, and the courts were not well done to begin with. So I agreed with that. At one point I was going to try to help out, try to get it straightened out for them but it didn’t seem like they wanted to do it. 1:15:00EG: Um, well one of the questions I like as we’re wrapping up, uh, this interview today is thinking about, we’ve talked so much about the past, but thinking about the future. So, we will be saving these interviews for a long time. Imagine someone listening to this fifty or more years from now. What are some things you’d like them to know about your life and about the community right now? 1:15:24 HS: hmm. Well, I wouldn’t mind somebody remembering I was here, but I know that won’t happen. 1:15:35 EG: Anything in particular that you might imagine someone in the future would want to know or, you know about life in the, life in this place 1:15:46 HS: Well, I guess I want to have them respect their heritage that they inherited, you know? The town that it was, and the hard life that people had to have to get here, to make this �place happen. I mean, these people were all pioneers the people that started this town Douglas in 18, I have a picture in my stuff that my dad, it was 1860 that the town was incorporated. My dad is holding the original incorporation books. 1:16:11 EG: yeah 1:16:12 MS: wow 1:16:12 HS: My dad held that, and they had a centennial, centennial, uh, ceremony right in Douglas. 1:16:17 EG: Right 1:16:17 MS: Oh yeah 1:16: 18 HS: at the time and Tid Lane (?) wrote a lot about about that in one of her books. And, uh, but there was Schulz boys, picture of the Schulz boys. Well there were my dad’s uncles. I know all, knew all of them. I saw all of them. 1:16:36 EG: yeah. 1:16:36 HS: At various times. There were a lot of Schulz’s around. And I wouldn’t mind being one of them. Some of those guys were, were working hard. Schulz was a big name in this area a long time ago. There’s still a bunch of them here. It’s really hard sorting it out. My daughter is doing a, um, has started doing a, what do you call it? The family 1:17:00 MS: genealogy 1:17:00 EG: family tree 1:17:00 HS: genealogy study. And we’ve gone to cemeteries and tried to sort it out. It, it’s very difficult to uh, keep it going. I’ve recently found a book that my dad kept records of for the village of Douglas while he was clerk. And I’ve talked to Mary about that last night. Uh, I’m going to keep the book. It’s part of our family, but it’s got stuff the village of Douglas should be interested in. 1:17:24 MS: Oh nice 1:17:24 EG: mmhm 1:17:26 HS: And I’ve talked to the village of Douglas and they don’t have any interest in keeping court records like that. 1:17:32 EG: right �1:17:32 MS: interesting 1:17:33 HS: So, you guys are it 1:17:34 EG: That’d be something interesting to have a look at to consider scanning or just making notes about what it is 1:17:39 HS: Oh that’s what Mary said, so I’m going to make an appointment with Mary here as soon as I can. 1:17:44 EG: That’d be great. 1:17:44 HS: And, uh, loan it to her for whatever they take, but it’s, it’s uh, it’s like a little diary, you know, like. I was surprised to find it. It had been in our stuff for years, but my brother in law had taken over the old house, and cleaned out the old house, he and my sister. And my sister died not that long after that. She was the family historian. And when she died, he, I don’t know. He pulled switches with the houses. I don’t know, but he switched with his, his mother had died about the same time. And they switched houses with his mother’s kids, kids’ in Grand Rapids, his, you know, nephew. But he switched house, because they were living in Grand Rapids, and in the process all this got stored somewhere. And one of the places was a storage bin. So they had to clear the storage bin out and that’s where this stuff came from. 1:18:45 EG: Ok 1:18:45 HS: A couple of years ago. 1:18:48 EG: yeah 1:18:48 HS: but there’s still some major Schulz background stuff that is missing. My dad, we had a special book with all that stuff. 1:18:54 MS: Oh 1:18:55 EG: right 1:18:56 HS: Because my sister was the historian, I said you keep it. That disappeared. 1:19:00 EG: Hasn’t turned up yet. 1:19:02 HS: yup 1:19:03 EG: yeah that’s always challenging, for sure. �1:19:06 HS: I’ve got pieces of stuff because there were other family members and I’ve got bits and pieces. And somebody turned in some stuff here that I didn’t have. Somebody else did, and I don’t know where it came from. And that was Uncle Jack’s tavern up here. He had a tavern, and you know I mentioned my aunt went to the war effort? 1:19:23 EG: mmhmm 1:19:23 MS: mmhmm 1:19:23 HS: Well after the war she came back, here, and in 46 they bought Bill Schulz’s restaurant, and they couldn’t get a liquor license because it was too small. So he built a place and got his liquor license across the street. And that became Douglas Tavern. Which became Annie’s Woodshed years later when he died. 1:19:44 MS: I see 1:19:45 HS: And, uh, anyway 46, and you know, there’s a lot of that stuff she brought him back, you know from the war effort. She got him some place. 1:19:53 EG: Very interesting 1:19:54 MS: Yeah 1:19:55 EG: Lots of, lots of change over time. Kind of a final question—biggest changes you’ve seen in the community, and maybe things that have just remained consistent. What have you seen that’s changed since you were a child here? 1:20:11HS: Oh, everything. The town was a ghost town in a lot of ways. Buildings were all old, and the whole area in general, I would say has profited from the LGBT movement to some extent. Because what’s happened, all these old forty acre farms, several of them have been split up and sold and what have you, and to my knowledge a lot of them are being taken over by these mixed, mixed couples, pairs. 1:20:42 EG: mmhmm, right. 1:20:42 HS: Not necessarily mixed, I don’t think. They can be mixed in that one can call it a main residence, and the other one can call it not be a main residence. 1:20:53 MS: Ok 1:20:54 HS: And the pairs make money, and they (?) and old forty acre farm 1:21:03 EG: yeah. �1:21:03 HS: And it’s nice and robust again, and they’re not making any money necessarily, but they’re making money elsewhere. I, we met a lot, a couple of them, pilots for example, and guys that are making some pretty good money. Lawyers. Two guys have bought my cottage. One was a dentist, and I don’t remember what the other one was now, but they were professionals. And, uh, they bought our cottage, you know, so they can have it on this tax roll thing. You guys have probably hear of it, haven’t you? That the locals, second house, you pay full tax on it? 1:21:34 EG: homestead tax. Homestead tax. 1:21:38 HS: The homestead tax, there’s only good for the homestead. So you can declare, one guy declares it his homestead. And then the other does in the other place. It’s kind of common in a lot of places now 1:21:50 EG: Interesting. 1:21:52 HS: So that gets them different, you know, a farm a forty-acre farm is big money for a lot of people. In my grandparents’ days, a lot of people, and they could make a living off of it. Fruit and what have you. Not so anymore. 1:22:08 EG: What, what remains, what’s something that’s consistent that you see that’s really that remains much the same about this place? When you grew up and came here in the 1950’s and 60’s and 70’s 1:22:22 HS: I think it’s still the same in, the uh, intent to entertain. Beach is, of course, our big entertainment. Uh, I’m sorry to see things like the Big Pavilion never go rejuvenated because that was a major, uh, maybe the town couldn’t have handled it. I don’t know. South Haven had one. It burned. Uh, there’s been Pavilions like this in other towns up the street. Uh, that’s not a form of entertainment anymore, but could be. I don’t know. You know, when I was a kid, I went to go to those jam sessions, I saw Louis Armstrong a few times, well a couple times, and other band, big bands. And that was fun too you know, and kids go to band places like that now. Even bigger crowds now. So, is that what we want? Apparently the town didn’t want that because we had the big jam sessions here. Do you remember the Newport Jazz Festivals? In the old days? Did you ever hear of that? 1:23:29 EG: Read about them, sure. Yeah. 1:23:30 HS: Well, ok. I read about them because, because Playboy was always writing about those and all the musicians that went to those festivals. And Saugatuck was trying to to do the same thing. And they threw them out of town. You’ve probably gotten into the history enough to see that. 1:23:48 EG: Oh sure. Yeah. The Great Jazz Festivals around 1960. �1:23:54 HS: We were, our house was in Douglas, up to the East as I said here. Up on the hill kind of where the river, Kalamazoo river homes are, and, um, we could hear the jazz festival that was out at the airport. I never heard about the one that was in Saugatuck that was at Gosemer Lake 1:24:09 EG: Right that was later. 1:24:12HS: Yeah, that was, I don’t know about that. 1:24:13 EG: Late 1960’s 1:24:14 HS: Must have been when I was out of town or something. And I traveled a lot in the summer months. July and August, June, July, and September were key months for me to be on the job going someplace else. Wondered why my wife didn’t divorce me as a matter of fact, but she had her family and sisters and baby sitters. A couple of her sisters were able to babysit, and she had things to do, so. And a couple of buddies that were lucky. 1:24:47 EG: mmhm. Yeah. 1:24:47 HS: And you get into racing. You know, I was really into racing at Ford so that was real tough to back out of that. Cause I’m still in racing now, just watching it. 1:24:56 EG: [laugh] Wonderful. Is there anything else that we haven’t asked you about that you would like to share as we conclude our interview for today? 1:25:10 HS: No, but I had friends in the auto industry that I get together with, and boy a lot of stuff comes up sometimes. One of my friends was in Chrysler. He worked at Chrysler during the racing days against Ford. 1:25:21 EG: Ok. 1:25:22 HS: We, uh, I don’t know any jam guys anymore, but it’s fun to get together to discuss things that we have common interest in. And I love to see these shows, these history shows that go back and dig into these kind of things. 1:25:37 EG: Yeah. We were at the Henry Ford Museum not too long ago, and they had a great exhibit of course on Ford racing. That was um, that was really really interesting. 1:25:49 HS: Yeah, well, we were out of the country when Ford racing. Some of my buddies were involved in building race cars that went to Le Mont. And Ford was rejected by Ferrari, they wanted to buy Ferrari was kind of down on the outs, and Henry Ford was rejected, his offer to buy Ferrari. 1:26:09 EG: What year, what year was that? �1:26:11 HS: About 1964 or so 1:26:13 EG: Ok. 1:26:14 HS: He said we’re going to beat you anyway. We’re going to beat you big time. And he did. Ford was founded on racing. That’s how Ford Motor company got its start was by Henry Ford the Oneth out racing the guy that became the head of Chevrolet. He got the money, got his backing to build a company. So that’s why I was always kind of, I was always pro Ford, even though everyone else around here was Chevrolet. I had a couple Chevies. I had 1:26:50 EG: Was a Chevy town. 1:26:52 HS: Huh? 1:26:53 EG: It was a Chevy town 1:26:53 HS: It was a Chevy town. The closest Chevy factory. There was one in Grand Rapids and one in Kalamazoo. Chevy factories, GM factories. And that, besides whatever I don’t know, all chevies around here, pretty much, although model a was a pretty close second in some categories. Like truck for example. I try to picture my dad’s, he had an old model a truck, and they were hauling on the farm, and they were hauling loads of fruit, I’m not sure what it was. They were, they were a pear farmer. Pears are, do you know what pears are, the types of pears? Do you ever in the market at all? There’s only certain kinds that will be in a market, because they’re firm. The good pears go so soft so fast you can’t hardly ship them. And if you cut, pick them too early, you know, you’re not even getting them to market. So they’re really tricky. Well they were a pear farmer. And peaches. Peaches were big around here. There was Peach Belt School out our way. Anyway, they had a Chase School. That was my mother’s family name, Chase. 1:28:08 EG: Right 1:28:08 HS: And, so anyway, they were taking Pier Cove at it. Pier, and they were taking this old truck loaded with fruit out to the cove and getting it onto the ships to Chicago and wherever else on the Great Lakes. Milwaukee of course is straight across. That’s even closer than Chicago. But I think most of them went to Chicago market. Then there were years they did truck driving. After the boats were not so popular, because you can’t do it in the winter, at only certain times are they viable. And trucks, they were able to take, one of the guys here on the farm was still taking to the Chicago fruit market not too many years ago, because they still have fruit in some of the areas of south. Blueberries of course are the popular thing over here. They’ve all discovered blueberries as a thing. Pretty nice thing to handle. And of course cherries up the coast, you know, Traverse City way. All this fruit farming is still being used. It’s just different in that way. �1:29:10 MS: mmhmm. 1:29:11 HS: All these little farms folded that were trying to make money on that. You know my grandpa’s was forty-acres. Any number of forty-acre places around my place that you can see. Some of them split up the place and turned it into a house and thirty-nine acres or whatever. It’s good to see the buildings not getting ripped up too bad, the stores. There’s some nice architecture out there. There’s a guy next to, two guys next to me that have restore these old home sites. One of them has go a lot farm. My property was on a big farm. And we got 14 acres, but they split it all up in fives and tens, and uh, that one, so the apple trees that are there are probably that big around, you know. But the Cranes are surviving. They are the survivors. They’ve learned, you know, how to do it. 1:30: 13 EG: yeah. Well, that’s those are some great stories. I’m glad we connected with you. Thank you so much for your time. I’m going to go ahead and stop the recording at this point and conclude our formal interview. Interview ends 1:30:28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-SchultzH-20181004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schultz, Howard Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-04 Title A name given to the resource Howard Schultz (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Howard Schultz was born in Douglas, Michigan in 1935. Howard recalls growing up during wartime on the lakeshore. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Stevens, Meghann (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/57e59e5098ace1d4ef7dc08c21022c16.mp4 e5d547d1c05900bdb44e033b84d7669d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3af6f8cce020b96a06377bcda02d10b0.pdf e846c022b14644fd1870c5aac201416f PDF Text Text James Schultz (1:27:47) (00:11) Background Information • James was born on August 2, 1964 in Chicago, Illinois • His father was in the Canadian Royal Air Force • They moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1975 • He graduated from Grand Rapids Baptist Academy high school in 1983 • James took one semester at Grand Rapids Community College • Then he enlisted in the Army and was sent to Detroit • He had worked at Moulder Concrete before enlisting • James signed up to be an Airborne Medical Specialist (6:30) Training • He was first sent to Fort Dix, NJ • James then went to jump school at Fort Benning, Georgia • Jump school lasted from 14 to 16 weeks and he learned history, uniform, marching and weapons • He was sent to advanced individual training in medical for 4 months at Fort Sam Houston • James learned how to treat injuries and give IVs • He was at Fort Benning for 4 months • They had long hours and learned all about parachuting • Every day the line up got smaller because people were washing out (27:11) Fort Bragg • James then went to Fort Bragg, NC and was assigned to the 82nd airborne and worked for the HQ company • He was there for about 2 years and did a lot of jumping at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina • James was assigned to a medical personnel company �• The rucksack he had to carry weighed about 65 pounds • They fired weapons about every 2 to 3 months which was more than most of the Military • He did patrols at night • James crossed trained with repelling and mortars • For Christmas James went home for 2 weeks, but it wasn’t until he had been in the Army for a year and a half • He did 43 jumps total • When he was in the field He had to help a guy that broke his back on a jump • Another time a machine gun jammed and the bullet burst in a man’s face, so James had to treat him for burns • While sleeping in a field another guy got ran over by a medic car and he had to be treated for a broken jaw • James became a senior line medic • He had cold weather training at Fort McCoy, Wisconsin • James then went through jungle training at Fort Sherman, Panama • His rucksack weighed 85 pounds for the cold weather training • He was in Panama for 6 to 8 weeks and it was very hot with rain just about every day • James learned about a lot of the predators, large bugs, and plants in the jungle • They also had water training on rubber boats • He could go snorkeling on his free time • James was there in February of 1987 (1:07:08) Back to the US • He got back to the states and received hospital training at Womack Army Hospital • James worked in post operation surgery, the cardiac ward, and the psyche ward • He didn’t re-enlist so they didn’t send him on to desert training �• James went back home to Grand Rapids • He went back to working construction and went to college to be a paramedic • His GI Bill money helped him get a house • The busy lifestyle of the Army made him restless when he got home • He got an associate’s degree in art in 2001 • James now works as a custodian at Grand Rapids Community College � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchultzJ Title A name given to the resource Schultz, James (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schultz, James Description An account of the resource James Schultz was born in Chicago, Illinois on August 2, 1964 and then moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1975. He enlisted in the Army after a year of college and signed up to be an airborne medical specialist. James then went to boot camp and jump school. After that he had medical training at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. James was stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina with the 82nd Airborne and worked for the HQ Company. His field training at Fort Bragg included a lot of jumps. James then received cold weather training in Wisconsin and jungle training in Panama. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Natte, Jeremiah (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-28 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b861a2c1d9aec50c02c08fdbfa8379e.pdf 4b747c8c0a824e81890f1d0b7b2dbf4d PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Mildred Schulz Interviewed in Fall 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #53 (30:19) Biographical Information Mildred Schulz was born in Sturgis, St. Joseph County, Michigan on 15 November 1890. She died in Grand Rapids on 6 January 1985 at the age of 94 and is buried in Greenwood Cemetery, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Miss Schulz never married. She was the daughter of William J. Schulz and Mary L. Peters. William Schulz was born in Germany in May 1860 and immigrated to the USA in 1864 according to census records. He was a wood carver. Mary Peters was born Aug 1860 in Germany and immigrated to the USA in 1871 according to census records. William and Mary were married in Chicago, Illinois on 1 June 1889. Mildred had a sister named Marie who was born in Illinois in September, 1894. The family name is spelled consistently as SCHULZ in the city directory, census, birth and marriage records that were located. The name is found spelled SCHULTZ in Mildred‟s obituary. ___________ Mildred: …and not a word, you had been there said that I had been there either one or one and a half years and I thought you said that he started when it was in nineteen…..let‟s see nineteen sixteen, I think he said. Near as he could remember he couldn‟t just remember either and the other girl that worked there was a bookkeeper and I didn‟t know her too well, but she worked downstairs and I know about two and a half to three years ago, my sister died, she lived with me here and he, this girl sent a bouquet of flowers and I thanked her for it and everything, but since that time I cannot find out where she is. Interviewer: Was this before the first World War that you started to work for them or after the first World War? Mildred: It was after. Interviewer: Mildred: After. Sometime in the twenties, maybe? I don‟t know, yes, I imagine so. Interviewer: But Mr. Voigt was still alive? �2 Mildred: Yes, all three of them. All three of them were still alive. Interviewer: And Papa was a big fat man? Mildred: The Papa was what? Interviewer: That he was a pretty big man. Mildred: Yes. You mean their father? Interviewer: Yes, their father. Was he alive when you started to work there? Mildred: Oh, no, I never saw him. Interviewer: Oh, you never saw him? Mildred: No. The brothers were the boss then. Interviewer: I see. Who was the boss? Was it Carl that was the boss? Mildred: No, Frank. He was the boss. That is, he was the older one, I don‟t know whether he was the boss or not but. The rest of them wouldn‟t have it that he was boss when I‟m around, I guess. Interviewer: worked? I was wondering, how many hours a week, do you remember how long you Mildred: How many hours? Interviewer: Mildred: Did you work Saturday, you worked Saturdays? No, we never worked on Saturdays. Interviewer: Never worked on Saturdays? Mildred: I think, once in a while on Saturday morning that we would come down you know and I believe it‟s every third or fourth Saturday morning. And finally I said the man I work for I said what‟s the use of coming down here on Saturday? I said you don‟t come down here until twelve o‟clock. I said and that means I got to sit around all afternoon, you know just waiting for your two or three letters. He said “well that‟s silly” he says I, he was kind of German, he talked kind of German he said “that„s silly,” he said, “well, we won‟t come down anymore on Saturday.” Interviewer: Oh, that was kind of nice for you, gave you a day off, extra day off. Mildred: Yes, and we quit at five o‟clock and as far as … �3 Interviewer: What time did you go to work in the morning? Mildred: Well, he said we could come anytime we wanted to; didn‟t make any difference to them. As long as I had my, get my work finished, you know. And Carl was real nice too. I did quite a lot of work for him. Interviewer: Did you? Mildred: He had more letters than anyone else. Interviewer: Yes, was that because he did more like sales work for the…? Mildred: Yes, you see Frank Voigt, I don‟t know, he never got around in time. I don‟t know he slept too late or …what was the matter with him. But the younger Voigt, he was there on time. I never took his work very much, some way or other. Interviewer: Well, do you, were you conscience of their dividing up the responsibility like one say was in charge of production and one in charge of sales. Or was it more or less formal than that? Mildred: No, it was kinds all the same, you know. Course they all had different jobs. The older man that I worked for he just had a few letters a day and they were mostly personal. And the middle one would handle most of the letters and things. Then I had charge of the all the bookings of the flour. Like we sent flour to Australia and every place like that. Interviewer: Oh, did you? Mildred: Quite a few places and they would book maybe fifty cars or a hundred cars of flour on certain date and then they would order it out. You know just as they needed it. They had the various sizes. There were eighths and halves and all the different grades of flour. Interviewer: I see. Mildred: That was kind of a… Interviewer: An eighth or half would be eighth of a car load or half a car load? Mildred: No, there would be in eighths that would be like a eight pound sack or in it would be half sacks you know and eight sacks like that. Interviewer: I see. Mildred: Crescent was our main grade of flour. Interviewer: Was the difference between Crescent Star a difference in quality? I mean one was better flour than the other? �4 Mildred: No, the Crescent was a general flour used by almost all housewives and then their Columbian flour was a spring wheat flour that was just that was just for bread. Suppose to just for bread although you could make bread out of Crescent too. But it was more springy like, you know, it was nice flour. The cake flour was that was what they called Royal Cake Flour that was handled by all the fancy restaurants here in town. Interviewer: Mildred: The pastry cooks. It was a beautiful flour. Interviewer: Yes, that was really finely milled bleached flour, I suspect. Mildred: Yes, You know they would never, would put their cake flour in the little cartons like you see it now days, you know and I used to say to them you know you‟d sell a lot more cake flour I said if you put it in those fancy little cartons, you know. No, we don‟t want to do that. They would never take advice from anyone. But see then the other people got all the flour orders here in town – the cake flour orders - and they didn‟t. He says funny we don‟t sell more cake flour. I said well I told you why. But he wouldn‟t take it that way. Interviewer: Oh, that‟s funny. And they sold it as far away as Australia? Mildred: Yes, Australia and I think it was Australia, foreign countries. They had several where they would book maybe a hundred carloads of flour or something like that and then order it out you know. They‟d try to book it, we had a little book where we translated how many barrels and how many tons that they would book, you know. It was an interesting place to work and I don‟t know why I stayed so long. Everybody said why don‟t you get out and get more money someplace else maybe. I said, well I can walk back and forth from there. You know where the mills were? Interviewer: Yes, down along the river, down here, weren‟t they? Mildred: One was there and the other was the river at Pearl Street. Interviewer: Yes, and that really you were within easy walking distance of your job. Mildred: Yes, I was, you know, I could come home at noon and I don‟t know I kind of liked it there, you know. Interviewer: Did that really pay less than other places in town? Mildred: They did at that time. I thought. Of course nobody got what they get now, I guess Interviewer: No, course I hope the prices aren‟t what they get now either. My goodness. �5 Mildred: Well, it was a very nice place to work as far as that goes. That was the only thing I never thought they paid quite as much as they should have and I know when I went to work for the lawyer I‟d get quite a bit more money just to start and I didn‟t know a thing about law. Interviewer: Do you remember how much they paid you when you quit? At the time you quit. How much were you making? Mildred: Well, what? Interviewer: The time you quit working then how much were you making a week? How much money did they pay you a week? I don‟t even know what wage scales were like then you know? Mildred: Well, I don‟t remember it was pretty close to I think, it was pretty close to fifty dollars. Maybe it was fifty, I don‟t know, I can‟t remember exactly how much it was. But I know I got more at the lawyer‟s offices, but I didn‟t like it there. You know I didn‟t, after you learn law, did you know much about law? Interviewer: Not a great deal. Mildred: After you learn law, why then it is very easy. Interviewer: Yes, oh, we are working fine (referring to the tape recorder). Mildred: The same thing all the time. Interviewer: Probably monotonous, after you‟ve been in the mills. Mildred: I imagine it would be, I was there five years and that was enough for me. I didn‟t like the people I worked for too well. Interviewer: That makes a difference. If the Voigt‟s were easy going, easy people to get along with, was that true of all three brothers? That they were pretty easy to get along with? Mildred: Yes Interviewer: Or didn‟t you have much contact? Mildred: Not among themselves, they fought like the dickens among themselves, just like brothers do now days, you know, little kids as well as older ones. I don‟t know, they were always nice to us. I like it, I think when I quit, well they all quit because they went out of business, you see. Interviewer: Yes, that was in the fifties sometime, was it? Mildred: I don‟t remember the years they went out of business. Interviewer: Yes. �6 Mildred: They didn‟t like it because the men all went on strike, two different strikes. And they weren‟t going to. I know, Ralph went out and said, if you fellows get cold out there, come on down in the basement here, it will be warmer for you. Interviewer: This is when they were on strike? Mildred: This is when they were on strike, you know. Interviewer: It was nice in those days, people knew you by name, when you worked for somebody. Mildred: You‟re always nice to the men, too. But, see they didn‟t get enough money, either. Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: That was the reason they went on strike you know. Interviewer: Is, was the milling business, did they have somehow have a way for storing that wheat up and stretching the milling season, or was it pretty seasonal business? Were you rushed at some times of the year and no business at other? Mildred: Sometimes in the year when they had new crops came on, why they have a spurt in the business, but they did a real good business. Ralph says the reason we didn‟t lose any money in our mill, that was the oldest one, I mean the younger one. I called on him when he was sick, the reason we didn‟t have any great losses they way the firms do now a days and go out of business is because we had it up here. Interviewer: Bright boy. Mildred: Yes. Interviewer: Well, they didn‟t have labor unions to contend with and didn‟t have a lot of other things I guess. They moved. They lived over on the West side, here for a long time. Mildred: One time, on Mt. Vernon…. Interviewer: And then they moved over. Mildred: It must have been a long time, before I went to work there. Interviewer: I am sure it was. Mildred: I can remember after that it was purchased by, let‟s see who was that, who did buy that now? A home for people you came to town here that didn‟t have any work, you know. Interviewer: Oh, Yes. �7 Mildred: Until they could get work, they could stay there, you know. Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: What do they call that place? It is… they have a place now on College. Interviewer: Is it Evangeline Booth? Mildred: No, Interviewer: No, I don‟t know what it is. Mildred: It is real nice. I know a girl who lived there, she was trying to get a job and she finally landed a job at the Voigt Milling Company. Then, they‟re supposed to get out and find a place to live, you see. Interviewer: How many of you worked in the office there? Mildred: There were three of us up at the, that worked upstairs and I think there were eight who worked downstairs. Interviewer: Yes, you did secretary work but you also did booking, order booking. Mildred: Yes, Interviewer: It was probably a little more fun to have more variety. Mildred: Yes, Interviewer: Mr. Radke, that one that mentioned that is still living, was he in the office with there you? A bookkeeper or something? Mildred: He wasn‟t a bookkeeper. He did drive a truck for a long time. I don‟t know what he did towards the last. He guess he acted like a salesman, too. Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: They wanted him to stay at the Voigt house; he and his wife stay there while after all until they got the thing settled where they were going to go and what they were going to do. But he said I don‟t want to be tied down there. Interviewer: You went to see Ralph when he was sick? Just a few years ago? Mildred: Yes, in the hospital and then he fell and broke his, I don‟t know his leg or just injured it, I guess. And we went to the hospital to see him, my sister and I. And then we went to his home several times to see him. �8 Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: And he said he appreciated it so much. Interviewer: Have you been in the house, since they have made a museum out of it? Mildred: What‟s that? Interviewer: Have you been over in the house since they made a museum out of it? Mildred: No, a friend of mine that wanted me to go there with her. They advertise in the paper to come look at the house, and I said I have been in that house so many different times, why should I pay money to go see it. Interviewer: Yes, was he in the downstairs bedroom, when you went over, was he using the downstairs bedroom? Mildred: I don‟t know if it was a downstairs bedroom or something they made into a bedroom. Interviewer: Actually it was bedroom because there is a bathroom right beside it. Mildred: Is that right? Interviewer: It was Mr. and Mrs. Voigt‟s bedroom, at one time. And then the kids were all upstairs. Mildred: Is the third floor still there? Interviewer: The third floor is, was a ballroom, I guess. Now, it is just full of storage. They have an awful lot of stuff stored up there. Mildred: Oh. I imagine so. Interviewer: Because… Mildred: Because the last time I went there, no it was another time that I went there, and he had all kinds of fancy little vases you know, awful pretty things and so I said, “What are you going to do with all these vases?” I thought maybe he would give me one seeing how I worked for him for so many years. He said, “Nobody is going to get anything around here until after I‟m gone.” Interviewer: He was pretty generous to leave that house to the city. Mildred: He didn‟t know what to do with it, you see. He was the last one, he had a niece that wanted, but she had a home of her own, too. But he was always so crazy about her. The first time I met her I couldn‟t see her for dust, I don‟t know. She was kind of rough and tall. Interviewer: Was that Mrs. Perkins‟ daughter? �9 Mildred: Yes, Mrs. Perkins‟ daughter. Mrs. Perkins was so nice. The sisters were real nice. Did you know Mrs. Hake? Interviewer: I‟ve never known any of them because I have just been in town for three or four years. I Mrs. Perkins and Mrs. Hake were both very nice people, weren‟t they? Mildred: Yes, Dr. Hake use to be my father‟s doctor. Interviewer: Oh, did he? Mildred: He was a very good doctor, but he was kind of rough talking too, you know? But he got the people cured, I guess. Interviewer: Well, that‟s the main thing, I guess. Miss Emma Voigt, the one who always stayed at home, didn‟t marry. We hear less about her, than we do about the others. Mildred: She was real nice. Interviewer: Oh, was she? You probably remember her? Mildred: I never knew her too well, but she would come down to the mill once in a while. She would come in and shake hands with us, she was friendly. Interviewer: Yes, one of the people who came through, used, came through on one of the days we had the house open, worked at the house one time. And she was telling us that….. Mildred: What was her name? Dort something Interviewer: Mrs. Dorr, and I don‟t know what her first name was. Mildred: What was her name? Interviewer: Dorr, I think it was. Mildred: Oh, I remember she was there when Carl was sick. I guess with the last sickness he had, she took care of him. Interviewer: Oh, he was married at one time too, wasn‟t he? I heard from someone that she was a very pretty woman. She must have died? Mildred: You mean Carl‟s wife? I never met her or anything. But I know he always called himself a bachelor. Interviewer: Oh, Mildred: So, I said to the people at work, “hasn‟t he ever been married?” They said, “oh yes, he is no bachelor.” He wanted me to think, he was a bachelor. �10 Interviewer: A gay blade! Mildred: He married, I understand some woman that lived in Chicago and she had a job in one of the big stores there, Marshall Fields, or some big store. She worked there. Interviewer: Oh. Mildred: They said. I don‟t know, I never met her. He went to Chicago at different times. They were a peculiar family in regards to a car; nobody could have any car, only the Voigt car. Interviewer: Just one? Mildred: And whenever they went any place they had to go together. Interviewer: Oh, my, that‟s not very modern. Mildred: I couldn‟t understand it. Interviewer: You mean each one of those brothers, didn‟t have a car of his own? Mildred: No. Interviewer: Just the Voigt car? Mildred: Just the Voigt car. Interviewer: That must have led to a lot of fights, I would think. Mildred: I think so too. They seemed perfectly happy over it. Interviewer: Did they have a chauffeur, or did they drive it themselves? Mildred: Ralph drove it. Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: Ralph always drove it. Interviewer: Was it a big car? They go for a pretty big drive? Mildred: The older brother never went with them on these trips, as far as I know. Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: He would fight with them all the time, I guess. Well, we had a lot of fun in that place though, awful lot of fun. Interviewer: Oh, that‟s good. I think that matters almost as much as being paid. You know you can stand to be paid a little less if you are having a good time when you work. You found that �11 out when you went to work for the lawyers, I guess, didn‟t you. There is more to life than money. Mildred: Oh, dear, I don‟t know. The older of the lawyer fellows was very brilliant. He was one of these big fat fellows that we always called him “five-five”. I don‟t know people came and called from all over for his advice. Interviewer: Yes, Mildred: So. I guess he must have been very brilliant. And the middle one, I went to court one day for a trial. In the court, he keeled over, and had a stroke or something. I think it was a stroke. They took him to the hospital and he only lived a few days. Just before that, he had called me up. I was on a jury case. He called me up and said this girl was going on a vacation. That was after I had quit you see. Would I take over and come and work for him? I said sure I would be glad to. I worked for him mostly anyway there. Then somebody said he keeled over in court, you know, I couldn‟t imagine. Interviewer: That‟s really bad. Mildred: His wife always said she had a hard time trying to calming him down, he always got excited about every case he had, you know. Interviewer: Probably had high blood pressure, nobody knew it in those days. Mildred: I am have too, mine‟s two hundred and ten. Interviewer: Oh, really? Mildred: The time before I last went to the doctor and the last time I went to the doctor, it was down about thirty-five degrees. Interviewer: You‟ve improved. You‟re not ever going to let it that high… Mildred: I don‟t know why it would be so high; here I am all by myself… Interviewer: You don‟t feel like you get excited that much, huh? Say, one story you could probably check out for us is somebody told us, you know we are always picking up rumors. You know when we go to check them out, not all of them turn out to be true. One of the things we had told to us was when you worked in the office down there, they were very stingy about electric lights and you had to cluster the desks together, so you could all work off one light bulb. Was that true? Mildred: I didn‟t understand just what you said, about the windows? �12 Interviewer: No, the light bulbs, that they didn‟t use, that somebody told us you had to put the desks together so you could all use the same light bulb in the office, that they didn‟t want to have two or three lights burning, that‟s not true. Mildred: We ran the thing, we were in an office by ourselves, and they had their offices, we had our toilet, and they had their toilet. But they were always using ours. I don‟t know why, but…. Interviewer: Maybe they like it better. Did the brothers have a private office of their own or did they share an office? Mildred: Ralph‟s office was downstairs, that‟s the younger one; he had just a desk downstairs. And the other two had the other two rooms upstairs. Interviewer: So they each had an office and he didn‟t rate an office by himself? Mildred: It didn‟t have anything to do with the lights; we ran the thing to suit ourselves. Interviewer: Oh, you did. Mildred: And the heat and everything, we ran by ourselves. Interviewer: They didn‟t tell you, you couldn‟t have enough heat. Mildred: No. Interviewer: You know these rumors get started, one of the rumors that we had heard… Mildred: How did you happen to get my name? Interviewer: Now, I‟ll have to look. Mildred: I know there is a place here in town that handles all the stuff from the homes like that. Interviewer: Hmmm. Now, I don‟t know how we got your name. I, all the women who worked down there put down on cards the names of anybody they had heard that was connected with the family or the business and I‟m suppose to check them out and sometimes I don‟t even know how the name came. Now there‟s a Mrs. Balser, who worked for the Voigts. Here is Radke Mildred: Radke. Interviewer: Radke. On the west side, lives at Tamarack, it says here. Mildred: He did live there for awhile. Interviewer: He‟s on Ninth Street. �13 Mildred: His wife died and he got married again and I imagine he bought this house on Ninth because I called him up the other night. Interviewer: He‟s mentioned and I haven‟t been to see him yet, and there is another one here Mr. Ralph Zacharias. Mildred: Mr.who? Interviewer: Ralph Zacharias. Mildred: No, I never knew him. Interviewer: It says he worked for the Voigt Mills eight eighty-one Sixty-first Street, southeast. That would be way southeast. Well, you know sometimes I‟ve checked out a couple of these names and it turns out they haven‟t been, they haven‟t known the Voigt‟s Mildred: They may have worked in the mill, you know storing and packing of flour. Interviewer: Yes, and that flour was really well known, wasn‟t it as far as all over the Midwest. Mildred: It was very good flour and they had a very good business, they always did have. I don‟t know what happened; they didn‟t want to give the fellows any more money. They wanted to hang on to their money. Interviewer: It was hard because they felt like their father had built up the business. Mildred: Yes. It used to be the Voigt Herpolsheimer Company. Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: Of course, I didn‟t know that. Interviewer: That was before your time, then. Mildred: Yes, that was the old man, their father. Interviewer: Did they ever speak of him very much? Mildred: Once in a great while. No, I never heard. I never did hear them talk about him. I asked Ralph one time, How come you never got married, I said to Ralph you know and he said “My goodness, I have too much to take care of here. How can I take care of all that? I couldn‟t keep a house and do that too.” I said “your father did” and I think he had seven or eight or nine children. “He was married and had all those kids.” And he said “times were different then.” Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: I know he went with a woman a long time. �14 Interviewer: Didn‟t get married? Mildred: Didn‟t get married. As far as I know anyway. Interviewer: The sisters never did come to the business, except occasionally. Mildred: They had an interest in the buildings I guess when they first bought those two mills; then the sisters had part of it. I know when they sold the mills, the sister Emma got a certain portion of it. Interviewer: Yes. Mildred: Mrs…..The other one, what is her name now, the younger one? Interviewer: Mrs. Perkins. Mildred: Perkins, Mrs. Perkins, she was gone then but her daughter and son got the mother‟s share. Interviewer: Her son was Voigt Perkins, right? Mildred: Right, Voigt Perkins. Interviewer: Then her daughter married a man named DuBay [Dubee], and they have got one son. Mildred: None of them liked [Arend V.] Dubee. I don‟t know why, he used to work at Michigan Trust Co. and I used to know a girl that worked there and she didn‟t like him either. She said he never did anything to me. Interviewer: Their son, Charles Dubee has just been in the hospital with a heart attack for. He is such a young man, too, just in his forties. He‟s had a very severe coronary…. Mildred: I saw him at Ralph‟s funeral, I think. He was there. I thought he was Voigt Perkins because he looked so much like him. Interviewer: Yes. Did they all run to be heavy people? Mildred: Were they what? Interviewer: Were they all pretty heavy people? Mildred: No, just the older fellow, Frank .He was the only one that was heavy, the rest of them were just medium. Interviewer: Yes. �15 Mildred: Well, Ralph inclined to be that way a little bit too. Interviewer: Not spectacularly, this young Dubee guy is really heavy. Mildred: Nice looking man, like my sister said when we went there the first time and she said look he‟s still stylish looking. He was an old man then but you couldn‟t help but realize that he was like he was kind of almost nobility, you might say. Interviewer: That‟s good to know. Mildred: He wanted everybody to think that he was a little better than the rest of them. I don‟t know why, I just had that opinion. Carl never paid any attention and Frank didn‟t either. Interviewer: Neither of them went east to school. Now Ralph went east to college, didn‟t he? He went to Yale. The other brothers didn‟t, did they? Mildred: I don‟t know whether the older one ever went, but the second one, no, he couldn‟t even get through school he said his dad had to take him out of school and put him in Howe University. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Mildred: Someplace in Ohio I guess. So they said they had to do that with him. I said how come Ralph went to Yale, because I didn‟t he was quite as brilliant as the rest of them. Well, He said my father put him through Yale. I said well that‟s it then, it‟s the money isn‟t it? And Ralph heard me say that but he said it no wasn‟t the money he would not have that way. Carl said to Ralph you know she is right don‟t you. Interviewer: You talk to me like you had a pretty free life there? Mildred: We did, we had a nice… Interviewer: Well, that‟s good, are you alone here? Do you live alone now? Mildred: My sister died two and a half years ago. Interviewer: This is pretty good that you are able to stay on and take care of the house, be here by yourself. Mildred: Everybody says I‟m real brave, but my sister‟s bedroom was there and I can‟t even clean in there, I go all to pieces. Interviewer: Yes, well it is hard when you lived with someone for awhile. Mildred: I had her right in my arms. I was lifting her from her chair. I was going to put her in bed. I had right a hold of her. She just grunted three times and fell over and then I couldn‟t hang on to her. I tried to call a neighbor that was around over there mowing the lawn. He was gone I �16 couldn‟t get him. I finally got my sister‟s sister-in-law and her husband; they just got in the house. They got here within ten or fifteen minutes. She was gone. I knew she was gone then. I thought so anyway. Interviewer: Yes, oh, dear. How long have you been retired? Mildred: Let‟s see, about ten years, I guess. I retired when I was sixty-eight, you see. Interviewer: Hmmm. Sort of nice these days, nowadays they make you retire. Mildred: … about twelve years Mildred: Well, I have a woman staying upstairs. She works at American Laundry, and her husband died just before she came here. She didn‟t want to stay in the house anymore where she lived. She wanted to stay on this side of the river. I don‟t know why she lived here, because her place of work is on the other side of the river. I couldn‟t understand it, you know. INDEX B P Balser, Mrs. · 13 Perkins Family · 9, 14, 15 D R Dubee Family · 14, 15 Radke, Mr. · 7 H V Hake Family · 9 Voigt Family · 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15 Voigt Milling Company · 7 Voigt, Ralph · 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b90928beade4c1cf2ee13d5d0aa4d404.mp3 f406e3a71f01d19205ee98cfa3e65381 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_53Schulz Title A name given to the resource Schulz, Mildred Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schulz, Mildred Description An account of the resource Mildred Schulz was born in 1890. She worked for Voigt Milling Company as a secretary and bookkeeper for Frank Voigt. She died on January 6, 1985 at the age of 94. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6029e2987a027aa3f11e1ccb3041a954.mp4 1532bea040a4a04bde30fd66e9d713d9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/96284aeebf5579f4c2aab45351894c9f.pdf d4f56d6f1b700205b3748beaf30b0241 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Alfred Schumacher World War II 1 hour 42 minutes 30 seconds (00:00:19) Early Life -Born in Blue Island, Illinois -Grew up there -Went to Thornton Township High School Had an older sister and a younger sister -Younger sister died of polio at the age of eight (or nine) -Had an older brother that had died before Alfred was born -Father worked multiple jobs -Drove truck -Worked on the railroad -Did any odd jobs that were available -This was all during the Great Depression -Birthday is December 14, 1924 -Graduated from high school in 1942 (00:02:40) Start of the War -Pearl Harbor was bombed in December 1941 in the winter of his senior year -Assumed that he was going to be drafted with the outbreak of war (00:03:09) Getting Drafted -Got drafted in July 1943 -Worked at a paper warehouse from summer 1942 to summer 1943 -Could have worked at a war factory and been granted a deferrment -Didn't want that because he felt it was his duty to serve when called -Wanted to fly, specifically be a pilot -When he was inducted and processed, he and a group of men were pulled aside -Asked if they wanted to go into the Army Air Force -He volunteered immediately (00:04:59) Basic Training -Sent to basic training at Miami Beach, Florida -Most likely the Miami Beach Training Center -Remembers that it was hot and rainy in Florida in the summer -Got through basic training and the entire class was washed out of pilot training (00:05:46) Gunnery and Armorer Training -He was sent to Buckley Field, Colorado for Armorer and Gunnery Training -Taught how to take apart a .50 caliber machine gun and put it back together -Was so good that he was able to do that with a blindfold on -Taught how to shoot at moving targets -Rode on the back of a pick up truck and shot at targets -Similar to shooting at targets in a moving plane -Training lasted several months �-Sent to a decompression chamber and was taught how to put on an oxygen mask -If you showed any signs of discomfort you were assigned to ground crew -80% of the men in his class were washed out and placed on ground crew -He went into the decompression chamber ten (or twelve) times -Never felt any adverse effects from being in there -At the end of training he assumed he'd be assigned to a B-24 or a similar bomber (00:09:24) B-24 Liberator -The B-24s had no insulation -Sat on iron seats, or had to stand behind the gun for the missions -Became a tight knit group with his other crewmembers -There was no heat on the plane -Wore long underwear, two pairs of socks, electrically heated suit, and silk gloves -The silk gloves would whick away moisture -The electric suit would be plugged into a twenty four volt generator -Usually didn't work -Flew at altitudes where the temperature could be -20ºF - -60°F (00:12:46) Armorer Duty on the B-24 -If a bomb didn't drop he would have to go into the bomb bay to get the bomb loose -Had to go out on an eight inch wide catwalk with no parachute -Bomb bay doors were open and they were still being shot at -Had to use a screwdriver to get the bomb loose -Didn't know when the bomb would release -Always prayed that it just hit an empty field -Men did slip and fall to their death doing this job -He slipped once, but caught himself -Only connected to the bomber with an oxygen tube (00:17:30) Advanced Training -Basic training lasted longer than usual because they were also receiving pilot training -Meant that it lasted three (or four) months -From Buckley Field he was sent to Tyndall Air Force Base near Panama City, Florida -Received tow target training over the Gulf of Mexico -Tow target training: Shooting at targets towed by a plane -Straffed targets set up on the water -Went to a field out west where they learned how to fly bombing missions -Bombardier would drop dummy bombs filled with sand and flour -Sand for weight, flour to mark accuracy -His first duty was to be the armorer and take care of the bombs -His second duty was to be a gunner -Went to Westover Field near Springfield, Massachusetts -Went on a flight to train with their crew's navigator -The best navigator that he'd ever seen -There were nine men in his crew -If they were the lead bomber, or deputy lead, they would have two extra crewmen (00:23:02) Deployment -Before being deployed he was given a ten day leave �-Visited his parents in Illinois -Parents had plans to move to Michigan and by a farm -Mother hoped that he would be discharged to help the family work on the farm -Gently explained to her that the Army had invested too much to let him go -Father would talk to him about training and about being deployed -Mother didn't want to hear him talk about his service -Went to an amusement park in Chicago with his sister -Church members and family threw him a going away party -Took a train back to Springfield and received flying orders at Westover -First stop was Newfoundland, Canada (00:25:34) Flying Missions Pt. 1 -Flew from Canada to Greenland, to Iceland, to Scotland, then down to England -Destination was a 44th Bombardment Group base -Flew seven (or eight) missions out of that base -The 392nd Bomb Group was almost entirely wiped out and needed replacements -They were transferred to that unit as a result -Most likely at RAF Wendling, England -Flew missions into Germany and other parts of occupied Europe -Participated in the final bombing raid of the war in Europe -Against Skoda Works at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia and rail complexes near Berchtesgaden -Antiaircraft fire was so heavy that they couldn't see the plane next to them -Twelve bombers would launch, and then another twelve, etc. until all bombers had launched -During one mission there were 2,000 bombers in the air -B-17s would take off first because they were slower then the B-24s would follow -B-24 could carry four tons of bombs -Number of bombs then depended on the size of the bombs (00:29:26) Ground Crews -Remembers that ground crews wrote vulgar messages to Hitler on the bombs they loaded -Alfred told the ground crewmen that those bombs hit their targets every time -Not always true, but it was a morale boost that the ground crew deserved -Feels that the ground crews received no credit for their part in the war -He didn't smoke, so he gave his cigarettes rations to the ground crewmen (00:31:16) Post Mission -After landing they would remove the guns from bomber for service -Turn in their parachutes and change into regular uniforms -Went to debriefing where they would recount everything they remembered about the mission -Also turned in any pictures that they took during each mission -There were cameras on board and the crewmen were encouraged to take pictures -Somtimes brought a cameraman with them on missions �-The pictures they took were valuable for intelligence purposes (00:32:52) Crew -Odds said that 3 would be killed/wounded/psychologically broken, 3 captured, 3 survive -His entire crew made it through unscathed -If shot down told to evade capture for as long as possible and by any means possible -Before the first mission the pilot called them together -Told the crew to call him Bill instead of 'sir' -Only had to salute or call him 'sir' if one of his superiors was around -The two other officers on board requested that the enlisted men do the same (00:35:11) Living Conditions -Lived in Quonset huts -Shared the hut with a few other crews -It was crowded -Had a coal stove to keep the Quonset hut warm -Only allowed one bushel of coal per week to keep them warm -Would raid coal dumps on foggy nights for extra coal (00:36:37) Flying Missions Pt. 2 -Flew missions during the day -British thought that they were crazy to fly during the day since they always flew at night -Targets were oil refineries and rail yards -Had bombs with delayed fuses that they used against rail yards -Those bombs would get buried in the ground -Regular bombs would blow up the train tracks -As soon as the tracks were repaired, the fuse bomb would explode -Goal in attacking refineries was to chip away at German fuel production -Pretty soon they weren't able to produce any fuel -Germans got so desperate they would drain fuel from abandoned vehicles -Along with the ground troops they bled the Germans dry -Tanks would run out of fueld and become sitting ducks -Flew thirty combat missions during the war -Would also have to fly missions to break in new engines, or break in a new crew -Flew at least seventy non-combat missions (00:40:42) End of the War Pt. 1 -Germany surrenders on May 8, 1945 -There was rejoicing, then they realized that the Japanese hadn't surrendered yet -The atomic bombs were dropped and their fears of redeployment were negated -He was still in England in August when Japan surrendered (00:41:35) Landing in England -Coming back from a mission their might be heavy fog over England -Mortars would fire red flares at the end of the runway -Men would stand at the other end of the runway with flare guns (00:43:00) Crash Landing in Europe -On one mission they were closer to the Russian lines than Allied lines -Read: deep in German controlled territory �-One of their engines took a direct hit and they had to drop their bombs and turn back -Engineer started pumping gas to the other three engines -Started losing altitude near the Allied/German frontline -Got so low that Germans were shooting at them with rifles -Ran out of fuel and crash landed in a field in France near the frontline -Army had just secured the field -Entire crew was able to walk away from the crash without injuries -Retreated to a nearby wooded area -A Piper Cub artillery spotter plane landed near them -Pilot told them to get out their pistols and be ready to fight if the Germans came -Told them to wait until a truck came to collect them (00:48:28) Returning to Base -A truck was sent out later that night to get them -They were very hungry and thirsty since they hadn't eaten since breakfast -The next day at noon a truck with a trailer was sent to transport them further -He rode on the canvas covered trailer -Once they were dropped off the navigator helped them walk the rest of the way -In the trailer came to the realization that the canvas was covering dead soldiers -The mess kits they were given had been from those dead soldiers -Came to a bombed out town and started looking for shelter -Started taking fire and didn't have any helmets or body armor -Took cover in a building -Turned out that it was an American rescue party that mistook them for Germans -They were taken to another base and the radioman was able to contact RAF Wendling -They were told that the radioman was at dinner and unavailable -The radioman colorfully demanded to speak with the commander -Commander told them to go to Paris where a plane was waiting for them -Took ten days to reach Paris by walking and hitchhiking -They were all excited to see Paris and the pilot had some black market connections in Paris -Able to get them money and told them to stick together and keep their pistols shown -Got to see Paris and buy mementos for a day -Finally got back to base and got debriefed -Learned that they were scheduled to fly a mission the next morning, which they did -After that mission they were given a week of rest leave -Got to go horseback riding in the country via the Red Cross -Week went by really fast -The crash happened in January 1945 -Still had about four months before the war ended in Europe (00:59:09) Downtime and Contact with Home -Whenever they weren't flying missions they basically had downtime and could visit nearby towns -Did target practice with their .45 caliber pistol -It was practical as well as recreation �-There were always card games going on -Didn't play because he didn't really know how to play -There were USO Shows once in a while -Didn't get a lot of shows because their base was a smaller base -Got letters from home pretty regularly -Mother never asked about the flying or the missions -After the war learned that his father was able to keep an accurate calendar of his missions -Still has no idea how his father was able to do that -Had a lot of fun with his fellow crewmembers -The enlisted men were all nineteen or twenty, and the officers were a little older -A lot of men drank and smoked cigarettes -Supposed to stop drinking after a certain time so as to be sober for missions -A tailgunner drank a lot and needed someone to escort him -Alfred would help him get back to base from town (01:07:15) Life after the War Pt. 1 -When he got home he started looking for work -Parents were living near Holland, Michigan and would go to church in a one room school -Met his wife-to-be at the church -Her father didn't like that Alfred had German heritage -He also told her that once she graduated from high school she had two options -Leave, or take care of her mother and father -She graduated from high school and two weeks later they got married -Were married for nearly sixty five years (01:10:47) Battle of the Bulge -During the Battle of the Bulge they flew an important bombing mission -The Germans had massed a force that threatened to break through the Allied lines -His bomber dropped a 500 pound bomb, one incendiary bomb, and fragmentation bombs -Results were absolutely devestating -When the ground forces got to the staging area said there was more iron than wood -Intelligence for missions like this was supplied by resistance groups around Europe -Also there to rescue downed airmen (01:14:12) News of the War and General Patton -Followed the news of the war pretty closely -Knew that people respected Patton's tactics, but a lot of people didn't like him as a person -He didn't have an opinion about the man since he wasn't on the ground (01:15:33) End of the War Pt. 2 -In his barracks listening to the radio when he heard that Japan had surrendered -There was a lot of celebrating -He had more than enough points to go home �-Points: awarded based on length of service, rank, dependents, and combat seen -He was one of the first men to go home (01:16:20) End of Service -Flew back to the United States -Meant that they weren't greeted by crowds or bands -Flew back to Westover Field, Massachusetts -Given a three day leave -He was sent to Sioux Falls, South Dakota to wait to be discharged -Waited around for a few days doing nothing -There was a need for day labor in the area so he did that to pass the time -Got cooked a home cooked dinner by a farmer's family -Remembers that it was great after eating Army food -Worked for about a week until he was discharged -His pilot, Bill, was there with him -Went AWOL and got married, no one knew about it (01:20:13) Coming Home -Took a Greyhound Bus to Chicago, then got on another bus to Saugatuck, Michigan -Saugatuck was across the river from Douglas (where his parents lived) -Bus driver dropped him off in Douglas even though it was not on the bus route -He had a few miles to go to get to his parents' house -A couple driving by picked him up and took him to his parents' house -They weren't going that way, but did it for him anyway (01:22:32) Life after the War Pt. 2 -Parents' farm wasn't producing very well -Enrolled in Michigan's 52/20 Club -Soldiers were given $20 a week for fifty two weeks -Started looking for work -Got a job at a factory and didn't enjoy it -Worked odd jobs after he got married -Heard that General Motors in Grand Rapids, Michigan was hiring -Went in to apply for a job and was hired in the same day -Got promoted to supervisor and moved to Grand Rapids with his wife -Hasn't joined any veterans' organizations -Didn't want to be around a lot of drinking and smoking -Has talked at his granddaughter's school about his time in the war -Still has his escape maps from if he was ever shot down and got separated from his crew (01:29:27) Reflections on Service -For years after the war he would have nightmares about what he experienced during the war -Didn't talk about his experiences -Felt that it was something that he had to work through on his own -It made him mature quickly, especially considering that he had to make life or death decisions -Example: If an American fighter plane was shot down the Germans would rebuild it -They would then infiltrate a bomber group and shoot down American �planes -Gunners would instructed to shoot down fighter planes acting suspicious -E.g. Flying at a bomber with its guns aimed at the bomber -A fighter plane charged his bomber and he fired a warning shot -Afterwards he was called into headquarters and was asked about the incident -Pilot was chastised for flying at a bomber like that -Alfred was praised for firing a warning shot, not downing the plane (01:36:13) Service Details -Served from July 9, 1943 to October 27, 1945 -Highest rank was staff sergeant -Part of the 577th Squadron of the 392nd Bomb Group of the 8th Air Force -Received an Air Medal with three oak leaf clusters for the thirty missions that he flew -Has received several combat ribbons -Awarded the armorer/gunner pin -That is the only one that he still wears (01:37:27) Reunions -Only he and the navigator are left as of 2015 -Had reunions with his old crew after the war -Pilot became a millionaire -Took the crew to a country club in Florida -The other country club members were shocked to hear the crew calling the pilot Bill -Bill told the other members that his crew had earned the right to call him that -Wives were allowed to attend too -At their first reunion every one was there except for one crewman that had died young -Learned that every man was in a position of management -Believes that that was because of their leadership skills they learned in the Army (01:42:06) Honor Flight -Participated in the Spirit of Grand Rapids Honor Flight to Washington D.C. in May 2015 -Described it as being the trip of a lifetime � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SchumacherA1769V Title A name given to the resource Schumacher, Alfred Harold (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-18 Description An account of the resource Alfred Schumacher was born in Blue Island, Illinois on December 14, 1924. He grew up there and was drafted in July 1943. He volunteered for Army Air Force training and was sent to Miami Beach Training Center, Florida for basic training. After getting washed out of pilot training he was sent to Buckley Field, Colorado for armorer/gunnery training, and from there was sent to Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida. He received more training with his crew out west before being sent to Westover Field, Massachusetts. They flew overseas to England as a B-24 bomb crew assigned to the 44th Bombardment Group, later reassigned to the 577th Squadron of the 392nd Bomb Group of the 8th AIr Force at RAF Wendling. He flew thirty combat missions (including one during the Battle of the Bulge, the last bombing run in the European Theatre, and crash landed near the frontline in France). He and his crew returned to the United States in late summer 1945 and he was sent to Sioux Falls, South Dakota where he was discharged on October 27, 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schumacher, Alfred Harold Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Deb (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/481d784851f7c7925fc930b1d1043364.mp3 34f27dc4f6a627a10586d9cfa2f5e11b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1587e72639c7ac24dd16d0b25be0e6e3.mp3 44e728850d2c14d72058373419d97ec4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a25118bf856728ccbf69790469557b76.pdf 715149acd88b59a632fed9cf24d527ab PDF Text Text Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 Part 1 Eric Gollannek: This is, this is Eric Gollanneck. Meghann Stevens: And Meghann Stevens. EG: And I’m here today with… Dawn Schumann: Dawn Schumann. EG: At the Douglas, uh, Saugatuck Douglas History Center, the old school house in Douglas Michigan on July 21st, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. DS: Oh, I didn’t know that. EG: Thank you for taking the time to talk with us today. Um, we’re interested in learning more about your family history in particular experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Focusing on summer. Uh, can you please say your full name and spell it for us. DS: My full name. EG: Yes. DS: Dawn D A W N, Schwartz S C H W A R T Z, Follet F O L L E T T Goshorn G O S H O R N, Schuman S C H U M A N N. EG: There we go. DS: That enough? EG: For the record, wonderful, thank you. So, kind of jumping right in, tell us a little bit about your earliest experiences, memories coming to Saugatuck Douglas area. DS: Well, I'm not sure I remember it too well. [00:01:26] Part 2 Eric Gollannek: This is, this is Eric Gollanneck. Meghann Stevens: And Meghann Stevens. EG: And I’m here today with… Dawn Schumann: Dawn Schumann. 1 �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 2 EG: Uh, at the Saugatuck Douglas History Center in Douglas Michigan on July 21st, 2018. Uh, continuing our oral history from part one, um previously. Um, so you were speaking a little bit about uh, the, the Bible Camp, family camp… DS: Oh. EG: …and… DS: Yeah, uh, Frank Bible, I would, came to the camp with Frank and Muriel Bible and because her daughter, their daughter was my best friend. We were, oh it was probably 1945? 46? And uh, they had great history with the camp. Uh, Louise's grandfather had been head of the far east Presbyterian, and um, had Frank had been born in China. When they had to leave the country because of all of the warring factions, etcetera. They came directly to the church camp. Where Frank Bible’s father basically ran the show and worked with Jane Adams worked with all the others just start setting up the format of the camp. So, he, Frank was a young boy and he was the lifeguard and at the nearby Oxbow, was this very lovely Muriel whose father was a famous artist. And they met around the camp fire and this was very much the way of life in the church camp because the camp fires were really big part of our lives. In the process of being allowed the freedom to run in the woods and to run the whole area. We made our way, at one particular time over as far as the Kalamazoo River, the new entrance to the Kalamazoo. EG: [Laughs] Right. DS: It was put in, begun in 1904, but at that point it was still called the new entrance. MS: [Laughs] EG: Right. DS: The new channel, and we were messing around and playing in um, uh, the area right opposite Singapore. We ran into one time, we ran into um, blue flow shards, a blue flow China. And another time, Indian arrowheads, when we were working in another part, or, not working but playing in another part. We took the back to the church camp because we wanted to, this was exciting stuff. MS: Yeah. EG: Mhm. DS: And um, they were, there were people there that had been in that camp since the teens. Okay? And they had, they were thrilled to see this, they never seen this, this kind of a [inaudible]. So they put it in a little museum that we had, along with, with a lot of other history. The museum is now been destroyed, to make a way for [sighs] MS: Yeah. DS: Housing development, and so life goes on. But, Louise and I in the early 50s went on to wait tables, for three dollars a month. [all laugh] �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 3 DS: And all you could eat, and they did houses. In the dormitory that we were housed in was up at the top of a dune that was almost as high as um, Mount Baldy. EG: Mhm. DS: So you can you can picture running up, and down. MS: Oh gosh. [Laughs] DS: Well… EG: You’d be in good shape. MS: Yeah. DS: Be in very good shape. [All laugh] DS: Well the pavilion was still going strong, and that time and we got taken by the couple of the boys from camp to go over to the pavilion dancing, and I have to tell you that was thrill. EG: I’ll bet. DS: I mean they no longer have the big orchestras and it was probably not as, as elegant as it has been when my grandparents were there. EG: Mhm. DS: In 1911 and 12 and 13, they’d just take the steamer over. EG: Right. DS: Anyway, so that was great fun to be able to actually dance there and see what it was like, and of course cry when it burned down… EG and MS: Yeah. DS: …Just a few years later. One time Louise and I were [coughs] interested in getting a pineapple soda. [All laugh] DS: …So we made our way to the ferry, now the ferry was not the ferry that you know today. EG: The chain ferry? DS: The chain ferry. EG: Right. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 4 DS: Well but it wasn’t the chain ferry then. EG: Okay. DS: It was a two sided rowboat. EG: Okay. MS: Oh. DS: The chain was down there. EG: Right. DS: But, the, the big huge um, oh gosh what do you call it? Took the people across it was a large flat boat. EG: Like a barge. [00:05:01] MS: Yeah. DS: A barge, that’s the word. A large, flat barge that could take um, horses and carriages and famers wagons and what have you across that was no longer there. It was just two sided rowboat, and let me tell you the problem was that the guy, the ferry man, Tim the ferry man was a tippler… MS: Oh. EG: Okay. DS: …and so we explained to him that we had to be back at camp in 45 minutes. So we had half an hour to go, get our soda’s and then we come back right away, and please be ready to take us back so we were weren’t late. EG: Mhm. DS: We got back, no Tim in sight. We went, we ran as fast as we could do it every bar town and there were a few. EG: Right. DS: And he wasn’t anywhere we could find, he wasn’t in back at the boat, so we had to swim. The river. EG: Wow! DS: And this was in August and it had been a very rainy July, like it is today. So there was a current. EG: Yeah. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 5 DS: Well we were both very strong swimmers, we had been swimming in Lake Michigan… EG: Mhm. DS: …since we were children and in High School we were both on the swim team and doing, uh, water ballet. So we were pretty strong swimmers. Well, we got aw, out, we made it across with a lot of, I mean it was really tough. But we got across up somewhere around the um, where the museum is now. MS and EG: Mhm. DS: The pump house. EG: Yeah. MS: Yeah. DS: And when we got out, we were covered in, tan sticky, gunk. MS and EG: Oh! DS: I mean in our hair, and every part of oh our, oh, it was awful and it smelled. I mean it smelled really bad. Well, we went running back to camp because we were really late. MS: Yeah. DS: And there's something, you know Perryman goes along to the Oval, well running parallel is something called the um, the ministers walk and so we didn't want to be seen because we were such a mess. And so we ran through the, the path that was through the woods that was the ministers walk. We got to camp, ran up the top of the dune, did our bathing and um, tried hard to get to get off this, sticky, oily, gunky, smelly stuff. EG: Yeah. DS: We did the best we could, we get down there to serve lunch and Papa T took one look at us and smelled us, and said what have you been doing? And we just said, oh, well we had to run to town and we just got back. Okay but you really smell bad. Well I'm sorry we did the best we could. We didn't tell him that we had [laughs] because that was forbidden. EG: Sure. MS: Oh. DS: Because people have thrown doing that. EG: Sure. MS: Oh. DS: So, oh yeah. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 6 MS: Couldn’t even tell him. DS: So there we were. Anyway, it was a beautiful camp and seeing that I'm amazed me was is that, when you sat in person, certain places in that camp, it was if there was, and I’ll use a term that I learned in Sedona, you felt like there was something in the air, the atmosphere the feel, that uplifted you and you were just [deep breath] And the second part of the camp was a circular area that had been in encampment for the Indians for generations. I mean, probably a thousand years? MS and EG: Mhm. DS: And um, it's about five to six acres, circle, almost a perfect circle. MS: Mhm. DS: No trees growing in there. The grass stays short. It's the most amazing place you've ever seen. So the camp had path that wound through it. Certainly through this meadow. Some, what we called the meadow, and along the paths there would be a written stakes, things from Theroux, and [clears throat] MS and EG: Mhm. DS: Just different writers, of that period that were just thought provoking and you could sit down on benches along the path or you could just keep running. The path ran from Shorewood all the way to the ferry. Most people don't know that, but sitting talking to some of the older folk, and there actually was an agreement between the city and the camp that path would be open to the public. [00:10:11] MS: Oh. DS: As long as the uh, the camp gave the, the road, the camp owned the land that the road was on. \ MS: Yeah. DS: And I saw this when Jim Schimiechen and I were doing the historic survey at the Burnham Library. There was the agreement, and when we were, we were uh, trying to forestall the the purchase of the church camp… EG: Mhm. DS: For a mega million dollar development, um, I went back to get it, to get a copy of this. EG: Mhm. DS: Because that would be germane. MS: Mhm. DS: It was gone. It had been taken from the library. MS and EG: Oh. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 7 DS: So we couldn't prove it. MS: Yeah. DS: Which is really a shame, but anyway that's, that’s the story. EG: Wow. DS: And um, I’ve gone back to the church camp until of course it was closed and I gave a, a lecture to a whole host of people. This, a Historical Society event and I just stood there where they had a cross and a bunch of benches looking out at the lake and I just stood there and I looked at people and I said what do you feel? Stop and think a minute and feel it, and they could. When, once you stop and you think about it. What you are feeling? You’re feeling really great. It’s good to be there, it’s a happy place. And that’s what the dunes are, just exactly that. So when we couldn’t find a house and the interesting thing, I was very involved with the Frank Lloyd Wright studio in Oak Park Illinois, and in 1975 we decided we wanted to rent something on the Lakeshore, if we could, and we had a sailboat. It was an Islander 29 and it got us all around the lake and we had a wonderful time with the kids. But we all wanted to put our buckets in the sand. [EG laughs] DS: We missed being in Saugatuck. There was something wrong we weren’t in Saugatuck. EG: Yeah. MS: Yeah. EG: Sure. DS: And uh, so… MS: [Whispering] Oh, sorry, sorry DS: So um, [whispering] where was I? Oh. Oh. EG: Coming back to Saugatuck. MS: Yeah. DS: So, I called a friend of ours from Oak Park that I had gone to High School who was realtor up here and I said is there anything that’s available to rent on the lakeshore? She said, oh my god Dawn, get your husband out of work, the kids out of uh, school and get up here right now. I just signed a contract to rent a cottage that has your name over all it and I said why, and she said it was designed by a student and Frank Lloyd Wright’s. EG: Okay. DS: So my husband left work the kids pulled out of school MS: [Laughing] �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 DS: I mean, that was it. EG: What, what time of year was this? DS: This was in, um early June. EG: Okay. DS: I mean they were just finishing. MS and EG: Mhm. DS: So it was possible to do that. EG: Right. MS: Yeah. DS: We came up, we walked in the front door, we got to uh, there's a, trip, typical of the style… EG: Mhm. DS: ….you go through a long narrow, uh, entryway… MS: Yeah. DS: …compressed and then, boom, out into space and we got into the kitchen which was the beginning of that open space. EG: Yeah. DS: We didn't go any further, just turned to her and said, we’ll take it. [All laugh] DS: So we took it for the month of August and, and it turned out that the woman that had, the people immediately next door had built it. Because they wanted to be there year round, and they discovered winners are a little harsh. EG: Mhm. MS: Yeah. DS: And so he loved to gamble and went to Las Vegas instead. [MS and EG laugh] DS: They kept the cottage, but they… MS: Yeah. 8 �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 9 DS: Winters were, are, you know, winters were in Las Vegas. EG: Wow. DS: So, um, we sold the boat and we took a second mortgage from the people next door, who loved us because my dog would go over and keep him company while he watched, [pause] the market. MS: Yeah. EG: Right. [MS and EG laugh] DS: But anyway so we've got the cottage and have been here since 1975. EG: Wow. DS: And watched a lot of things go on. Big, big part of the Historical Society and uh, I was the first Cochair of the Heritage Preservation Committee and we did the historic survey of Saugatuck and Douglas and Jim Schimiechen worked with us. [00:15:18] EG: Mhm. DS: And uh, did his wonderful book. MS: Yeah. DS: And so, I don't know what else do you want me to tell you? EG: Well that, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a tantalizing account. MS: Yeah. DS: Good! [MS laughs] EG: Of summer on the lakeshore. Um, any observations you’ve had having been here, it’s been really your whole life here, summers over your whole life time. DS: Right. EG: The last forty years or so. Um, changes that you’ve seen in the community? Uh? DS: You know, it's been a period of accessing historic of properties that have been change time over and that change over time has not been negative. When I look at, out the window at the, at the um, what was originally Methodist Church, now a library. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 10 EG: Right. DS: Change over time. EG: Mhm. DS: A different usage. Um, when we first started coming you could a bowling ball down Center Street which is our main street. MS: Mhm. DS: And a couple of gentleman, took, purchased one of the uh, uh buildings and he restored it and all of a sudden people begin looking at Douglas. EG: Mhm. DS: Today, you walk up and down the street and yes there is some intrusive properties into what it would have been a very perfect, typical, um, 18, civil war era town. EG: Yeah. DS: But, on the whole, it's retained his character, and, so much so that you've got people who are moving historic houses in to be around the park. Uh, the old Gerber mansion, Gerber baby food was really begun here with, the Gerber’s a little boy that had digestive problems, a baby this and so she took some peaches from their Orchard, and another things and ground them up. MS: Oh, wow. DS: And thus began Gerber baby food. [EG laughs] DS: But, um, yeah. It’s, there’ve been still changes. Um, but we at the same time there've been changes, people are now turning around and taking a look at our history. And, and wanting to be a part of it. MS: Yeah. DS: Uh, that’s a wonderful, wonderful legacy. MS: Yeah, that really is. DS: Yeah, for example, we just had, we had a 1837 coach stop that had fallen into monumental disrepair and the City of Saugatuck was trying to help keep it up by painting of the outside, keeping the grounds moderately [laughs] mowed down. MS: Yeah. DS: And, um in comes the gentleman from Chicago who is a preservationist is from top to bottom. He has put millions into restoring it, and it’s now open, it’s a bed and breakfast. And that place is as, as really beautiful. Change over time. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 11 EG: Mhm. DS: But he has kept the entire feel of the interior to what would have been there in the 1850’s. So that's good change over time. EG: Right. Absolutely, yeah. Um, part of our, um, part part of the mission with this project, the Stories of Summer projects is also about uh, the gay community in Saugatuck and Douglas, and kind of looking the history of that, that population. Those residence in, have shaping Saugatuck and Douglas into what they are, if you have any? Reflections on that? DS: I rented, I rented the cottage to the first gay couple to uh, come to the lakeshore. And, they are wonderful people, we're still friends today. Douglas would not be Douglas without the gay community. Absolutely no question. Yes. The rest of us have done our part here and there [All laugh] But nothing, nothing like the gay community. It, it’s interesting because when we in talking to the library who's trying to build a new building. EG: Mhm, yeah. DS: I was in there, my husband and I were in there with several gentleman who were gay and the one point we made was the, what they had designed was the building that really didn't fit in with the historic architecture of the community, and they had invested, heavily in making sure that this town. Although we do not have any ordinance, we couldn’t get that through because we had some realtors who really muddied the water for us when we tried to get it… [00:20:25] EG: Into the preservation ordinance? MS: Yeah, okay. EG: Right, yeah. DS: Preservation ordinance, uh but, it's, it’s been restored in spite of that and I have to say. It is 90% thanks to the gay community. I sat at lunch today and there we were in a restaurant and there were as many gay folks is there were families. Nobody thought a thing of it. EG: Any, any experiences that you’d share good or good or more challenging stories about how thats changed over time? About uh, how, how welcoming, I mean your sense of how welcoming Douglas and, and uh Saugatuck have been to? DS: Certainly better than they were to the Jews. There was sign. EG: I’ve seen the photo of that, yeah. MS: Yeah DS: There was a sign, Jews not welcome. That never happened for the gay community. The way they came in and they became a responsible part of the community such as the two lads restoring um, that first building. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 12 EG: Yeah. DS: Uh, began an awareness among the rest of us that had lived here. That, hey there were some really nice people… [MS and EG laugh] DS: …who happen to love the same things we love, and they were here because they did, and hey welcome. EG: Yeah. DS: And, and that's my perspective, now others may have a different perspective. MS: Mhm. DS: But clearly, I'm not, I’m not, uh part of a group that would be anti- because I rented my home. EG: Right. MS: Yeah. EG: For sure. DS: To, to gays. MS: Yeah. DS: And I'll tell you, what Carl and Larry did to the gardens, and to the inside the house it’s never looked so good. [MS and EG laugh] DS: So. EG: That’s wonderful, yeah that’s a, that’s a great story. I'm just curious if you have any insights, uh, thinking about this the kind of magic of this place. What do you think it was sort of attracted visitors and particularly, kind of gay visitors and people to settle here. Do you have a sense historically? DS: Well, I think it’s, it was probably that they were treated as people, not gay people. Just treated as people. EG: An inclusive atmosphere. DS: It, I think, to, in my experience it's always been inclusive, there may be incidents that other people had differently but frankly um, I don't think anybody ever worried about it, and so you had a beautiful community, beautiful climate, historic fabric that I think the gays that came particularly respected and um it just was, it just worked. I would say we're probably at this point equal number of gays and straights. My grandson is gay, and it came to me and he said Grandma I have to talk to you and I said �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 13 okay and he said, took my hands, and I said so, what do you want to tell me, he said, Grandma, I’m gay, and I looked at him and I said, Seth I'm straight. [MS and EG laugh] DS: And that kind of the way a community is. MS: Mhm. DS: You are what you are. I am what I am, so what? Your, I like you. You’re a person. Uh, I think certainly the particular people such as Ken Carlson, Jim Schimiechen who were so interested and welcoming and part and really helping to make it a vibrant community, made a big difference. That’s part of what I like talk about coming in and helping us being responsible for the maintaining of this community. Because it's never look better in my life. EG: Well, that’s a great… MS: Yeah. EG: Great, optimistic uh, message there. DS: Good. EG: In your reflection. MS: Yeah. EG: I appreciate that. I want to be respectful of your time. DS: Thank you. EG: Because were probably getting, getting to our point to wrap up. MS: Yep. EG: Uh, thinking, think, taking the long view looking ahead. You can think about, you know, fifty years from now. Right there maybe someone listening to this recording uh, is there any message you would like to share, kind of looking ahead to that that future audience? Listening to this, what you’d like them to know about… [00:25:08] DS: Well they’ll probably… EG: The community now? DS: They’ll probably be some of my family, because I was a Goshorn, Goshorn Lake, Goshorn creek? My daughter is Laurie Goshorn and my Pete, son is Peter Goshorn and they will live here, uh in retirement because they own property. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 14 EG: Yeah. DS: And uh, I wouldn't want them to remember how hard day they helped work to help make this community what it is because my kids always pitched in and um, I would hope that um, in the future people who would continue to respect the value system and the culture of this town because the culture is what makes it. The biggest problem we have right now is that so many people rent their homes that it’s hard to maintain continuity of people that have that we have had in the past. Because you got people here that have come for the summers their whole lives, and spend the whole summer. EG: Right. MS: Yeah. DS: Because they’ve been teachers or whatever and that's changed. I, I, that's my biggest fear is that that will change things um, but I, what we have is unique. We really have a unique environment both in terms of historic architecture and things of that sort. The climate of openness and welcome. I would hope if it goes beyond the diversity of sexuality and that there are other people would, you know other, other uh, ethnic groups would be welcome. I do see more of that um, but I feel, I, you know I've worked hard for open occupancy in Oak Park. EG: Mhm. MS: Yeah. DS: So, what am I, you know? EG: Yeah. DS: I see a need for many different racial groups to be here as well. Um, we have a value system, we have a culture, we have landscape, we have a history, we’ve got it all. [MS and EG laugh] DS: And a good education system, our schools are very good. MS: Yeah. DS: If I were starving over and raising my kids, I would love to raise them in this town where they can hop on their bikes and be wherever they want be and there's a defined area that’s your… EG: Right. DS: Of the town and um… EG: Yep. DS: You've got everything you need within it. EG: Very good, alright. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 15 DS: Enough? EG: Anything you want, questions that you have? MS: Um, nope not at the moment. EG: yeah, I feel like you had like a self-guided, kind of, it took you through your story. MS: Yeah. [Laughing]. EG: Didn’t have to do too much here. With that we'll wrap things up. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your stories here today and this concludes our interview. [00:28:18] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-SchumannD-20180721 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schumann, Dawn Schwartz Follett Goshorn Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-21 Title A name given to the resource Dawn Schumann (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource In this interview, Dawn Schumann reflects on the changes in Saugatuck-Douglas from when her parents and grandparents arrived to the area through her time working with the Historical Society. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Stevens, Meghann (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Religious camps Ferries Gay men Sexual minorities Historic preservation Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/150383f100576025a633f4640e78824a.mp4 da3f389b9767aedc002c223b4c934286 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/70806a3a7b4ef44434463e237a8e4eb0.pdf c80ca1f23be2b1766f9f2534569ea5da PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 23:38 George Schuster WWII Veteran United State Navy; 1941 to 1945/46 Introduction (0:17) • Was born in St. Claire Shores. Entry into service (1:07) • Lied about his age to enlist in the Navy at 17 in 1941. Schuster was worried his mother would be very upset since his brother had already enlisted. Training (2:06) • Schuster did basic training in Farragut, ID, which he described as “Hell on Earth.” Schuster then went to Great Lakes, then to San Diego. Service (3:12) • Was assigned to the “black gang” which worked in the engine room on boilers and auxiliary equipment. • Schuster describes men getting seasick and eating well as many didn’t want their food. Went from San Diego to Pearl Harbor. First mission was picking up wounded men from islands and bringing them back to Pearl Harbor, which took about 15 days. (3:57) • Schuster describes the LSV and more missions ferrying troops, as well as some of the islands the ship went to. After the war, the ship carried marines to islands to search for Japanese, which they killed. (5:37) • Was most worried about submarines as the ship mostly did convoy duty. The ship had three aircraft silhouettes painted on the bridge to represent planes shot down. (7:44) • Evaporator rooms on the ship made fresh drinking water for drinking and showering. Men from other ships would come aboard to take showers (9:00) • Schuster recalls the LSV being a good ship able to ride out typhoons. Only 5 were constructed, 2 of which served in the war zone. (9:48) �• Schuster talks about going ashore on islands where they would have shore parties, drinking beer and playing baseball. Mentions that they were in a convoy preparing to participate in the invasion of Japan when Japan surrendered, and they turned around and came back. On Leyte, they stuck close by the ship or risked being shot. (10:40) • Recalls Manilla being all shot up. The Filipinos had buried their taxi cabs, then dug them up with horses. (12:10) • Schuster talks about Navy prisoners having their sentences reduced drastically if they would agree to go out to sea as replacements for crew killed. (13:18) • There was plenty of food aboard ship, with three large freezers down below. Only milk had to be used up quickly. Cigarettes would also go stale and were often given to natives. (14:30) • Ship served as a hospital ship. Ship had a new sickbay but no doctor onboard, instead using military medics. One nurse on board who, as the only woman, had her own quarters. (16:16) • Made three trips to Pearl Harbor, where they often had liberty. According to Schuster everyone there had guns. The ship wouldn’t stay at Pearl Harbor long, usually long enough to fuel up, then leave. (17:22) After the War (18:29) • Discharged in 1945 or ’46. Took his discharge in California and was given money and a train ticket back to Michigan. During the trip was burned and sent to Great Lakes hospital. • Worked for his brother-in-law at a dry cleaners. Worked for years at a vending machine company from which he retired. • Shuster was glad to get out. Considered staying in for 20 years, but couldn’t get better pay and leave. Doesn’t regret at all, saw a lot of places and got to know a lot of people. (20:50) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchusterG Title A name given to the resource Schuster, George (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schuster, George Description An account of the resource George Schuster served in the Navy during WW II aboard a Logistics Support Vessel (LSV), of which only 5 were used during the war. During this interview Schuster talks about serving in the engine room of the LSV, and trips between various islands and Pearl Harbor ferrying wounded personnel. Schuster also describes Manila after it's liberation from the Japanese, and about Navy prisoners having their sentences reduced if they went to sea. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3af297d6656e1ec5799b8155803a5ab.m4v bc4961b89ac80898face9271431dcd62 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09895581cdd2c5c1bc7d6749492543ad.pdf 90117e172877c76f4e26073f9d364f37 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Californialvin Schutte Korean War Total Time: 1:21:35 Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:06)       Born in 1924 on a farm in Michigan. He lived there until for most of his early life, except for a short period of time in which he worked in a General Motors factory. His father farmed He had 2 brothers and 3 sisters. He attended school with other farm kids. (0:10:22) He worked in Grand Rapids, MI after he left home. He ended up working for Spartan Stores in the meat department. He and his wife lived in the country and drove to work. He was drafted into the Army in April, 1951. Training and Active Duty (0:19:40)             Took basic training at Californiamp Roberts, California (0:20:07) Was sent to Fort Ord, California. From there, they were put on ships and sent to Korea. They passed under the Golden Gate Bridge on the way out of San Francisco Harbor. (0:24:40) They arrived in Okinawa and were split into smaller groups. They were again divided in Japan, where he was sent on to Korea. (0:25:15) They were then told to get onto a railroad car when he got to Korea. During the trip they witnessed fires being kept along the railroad tracks by the civilians in the area. (0:27:10) They were sent to the island of Koji-do where they guarded prisoners of war for 2 weeks. (0:28:40) Was then sent to an area Called the Punch Bowl where he fought in combat for the first time. They had to use helicopters to transport the wounded out. (0:30:45) He was then sent to Heartbreak Ridge. They arrived in late March and stabilized their positions by June because there were peace negotiations taking place. They were in these positions until he left. (0:34:10) He arrived in Korea in December 1951. (0:34:51) He was in the 25th Infantry “Wolfhound” Division. (0:35:05) He lost over half of his hearing during his time in the Army. The trees on Heartbreak Ridge, he remembers, were destroyed and looked like matchsticks. (0:40:17) He was in Korea for 11 months. He went over on the ship Nelson Walker and came back on the Marine Adder. Hey left from San Francisco, California and returned to Seattle, Washington. �        (0:44:08) They treated their POWs well when they were guarding the camp. (0:46:01) He was the squad leader when he first got to the front lines. He was then promoted the Sergeant and section leader. (0:48:11) He was in charge of 12 men as squad leader and 28 as a section leader. (0:49:57) He was given a desk job when he got back to Fort Custer, Michigan, before he was released from the Army. (0:53:38) Early on, his unit was re-organized and they spent time guarding prisoners. He observed poverty among many of the Korean civilians while he was there. (0:56:50) He found many of the Korean people to be very grateful for his service. (1:05:10) They were met in the harbor by victory ships, which sprayed them with water as they entered the harbor. There were also bands in attendance. Post-Service (1:10:27)   He returned home and went back to his job at General Motors, and then drove trucks and farmed. He met his wife shortly after he returned from Korea. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchutteC Title A name given to the resource Schutte, Calvin (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schutte, Calvin Description An account of the resource Calvin Schutte was born in Michigan and served in the Army during the Korean War. He arrived in Korea in December, 1951 after having been drafted into the service. He attained the rank of Sergeant and Squad Leader, and served in several capacities including general infantry duty and guarding prisoners on Koji-do Island. He spent much of his service on Heartbreak Ridge serving with the 25th Infantry Division. He returned to the United States and worked as a farmer and for General Motors. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gunneson-Paling, Ruth (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-02 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/11859ce0b49eee511820dfc1767825e5.pdf 2006e304e043d1a338bb329c91d3af25 PDF Text Text •, Ber 6 en( rn )16-4-J.::;172 1 ie v e 1 ui d J e s , Het zat nutuurJ.ij~ aJ.J.ang 1n ue ~en , dat l~ zou scnrijven , mru.r er 6 ebeurde in het iQe'--in vEn d~ze ctl~c;10 zo veel . Greet is geweest _plus Peter Jr .; Honny neçft OiJ ~e 6 elo geerd é~we neuoe~ de fGniJ.ie réuaie denaa . ~us aeze ~eer een heleooel stof! 1111a8r la2t ili: oe~it11e1 met de 01tV8.llt:,..,t oev.;..,t1 6 it1 5 van je orief o:nstree&s i•1oet er ' s ver Jaarda.; e.1 de it1 6 eGJ.oten $ 5, ~ Voor Moeder zal in: - la -.:n 11iet - ee,1 aoosJe J2J1aica rumoo~en. Ko_pen, dat vi1dt ze wel leKKer en het geoeurt wel eenf dat ze (als ze ze toevalJ.ig in huis neeft)een J.i,teuroonoon als 11 slaa_p.nia0.e l 11 6 eo1 uLrt . Voor .i?iet 's lloeder zal iK - nacr oehoefte - fruit en/of vers~a~eringen &ee nemen . Het is - alhoewel dat natuurJ.iJ~ veeJ. leu&er ~even is - g( goed idee b . v . ee·1 fruitoa .... Je te laten o_pmaa<:en. De ineeste vrucht en JJaó ze ,1iet tle IJ Jen ( zorJ.s pere •1/ oa,1a:1en-bliiej es) en d2~ mar~t ze zich zor~en over oeaerf of snel verdwiJ nen . Met Cor en Dori neo i& afjes_pro~en dat i~ wat suiKer vrije fli~~en - een oJ.i~Je coc~teilworstJes e . a . per Keer ~ee zal orengen. vawniana~ on iK ~eweest , maar ze was ii n orde, lat; in oeCJ. en had de af 0 elo.Jeil da6en .rrnortsaa11va H€t is inQ.ercJ2 °r triest en uitzicntsloc;s . d 6 eha~ )an ÁWam Greet op Goede VriJdag voor een wee,.;:Je HoJ.J.and . IK ben ha2r van scnipnol daL1 halen . MaatJe was natuurliJ erg olij en heeft de nu al traditioneJ.e ÁOOÁ)artiJ verzorgd op zaterdag . Greet ~ P Jr .1 0 6 eeraen biJ wij. Zonda.6 ( le Paasdag) zijn we tnuis 0 e oJ.even ; 2de Paasdag naa r .• · A:10.iJK ir1 een poginJ; tot voorouaer-v ererin~ op G-reet ' s verzoeÁ. ze was wel wat oectuusd - i~ oo~ wei, illaar 1 Á ÁOn er eerder de huillor van zie~ . Het KerKJe oij de diJK is nu een soort " supertna r..ret" 5 eworaen met Dora Jes aan de muur en overal in o e li Jn ven " A.ns te..L oier" "cocacola" "Dash" etc . Het Ker.n:hof was verdwenen. Het was bitter Koud, storm, zodat we biJnr van de dijK waaiden. Maandag avJiia n:waJ.11 Hou e_1 we heobe'1 d i nsdag met rvraatJe; Greet etc 1 een tocht Je c!;e.naa,d la:1gs de oe 6 innende bloembollenvelden en een bezoeÁJe aan Ta1te GrietJe(l A~riJ. Jarig 5 eweest ). Dat viel erg in de su1aaÁ . ' s avonds too11de Hoü nj nieuwe Israel dia ' s voor o.a. Ilev r . .lay ooer e11 naar zus tu MsetJe ~ing wat vroe 6 er naar huis , want derdeJ.iJÁe uits;,attin6en ver"°oeie_1 .tu:.o.r toen we J. en ooveüt..le 1 was 11evr. Q. weer zioÁ in o~d . Donderdau reoen J tP wet Honny mee naar zeist(Hon illOest no 5 verder). Greet neeft dus ooK daor nog 2 dagen 5 elogeerd ea ~aterda~ 8/4 erachten a t H ha2r weer naar Schiphol . Het was a.1J.eJ18aJ. e 1 b ~ lig . ...______ Sn t o e ri 6 is t eren a e r é unie • Ja tn..n er dat J e er n ie t o i J ,m ziJ~ . Je waren met ca . 40 personen als vol~t : T8.n te Grietje - Anton .net vrouw - Jany Maatje - Jaap % G~ - i~ Heil: Tryntje % man(or 6 anisatore11)Ja:1y;Álaas('?) Schippe-rs: .Hm "t: vrou.w; Jat1y en Greet (geen ecntgenoten Hoocnourg : DirK t vr; ~laas t vr; Piet vr. mee) Jany ?c m; Stien ':c m; Jan '1: vr; Jaa_i:) <c vr . Sc.t1uunuan; JanyfzoL1der mo 1); Adriaan :i: vr . 1,.,.1ton ~ vr . Jan % vr. v . Delft ; Klaas (zonder vr . ); Alie 3n een ge~a~el! OnvoorsteJ.baar.Eerst ~ennis ma~en tijdens ,rnffie en al gauw zat iederee .1 "°et ouoe mee 0 eoracht foto I s h,~ rLrner ln'--'e,1 op te naJ.en; dr·áraa een oorrel t je of zo; toen een broodmaaltiJd en een borreltJC toe . we be~onnen om 3 uur en o~ ~wart voor tien cin~en we we met het voor'le~en het voJ.uend Jaar weer te dven . De aa'1. 6 etr ouwde nicnt e~/ .1e 11 e,1 r.:e 1de L{ 11auwe.1i J~s of niet en vaazelfspre~eüd troK i~ tocu weer op de Hodeno . aan. ~u �rJch neo i~ eea nJe.l JOOSJe illet Greet scnip~ers zitten 1raten . liet te ge.loven zeg - spre~end onze Cor!; ze.lfde ,c.leur/mode1- "hairdo"; ze.1fde illond e.i neus, ,naL.r vooral_ de oogops1-a 6 • Gé illaL~te ~eer o~ attent . Met Alaas v . D. schiJnt het niet 6 oed te ~aan . I~ ze~ dit sub rosa . Het genJ.c.ht t:Sin 6 dat hiJ aan ,ca1Mer .liJdt. Aanvanirnlij Lr was hij er 6 hiJteri~ illaar ctat dracicte biJ 1aJ ter . A1-ie gaat in Juni weer voor 6 we,cen naar ~anada . Fien was (weer)zlen. - aart . De anderen zu.l.leü oo~ wel hun zor6 en en i:noeiliJ .1Hieden heooen, lll8.8r we heooe11 toch ecnt geze.1.1i~ 6eoaooe.ld . Jan Hooaenourg moet oinnen,cort voor een ma~goperatie opJenornen worden. NoG dezelfde mal1-oot als alti Jd . Maat Je .g.eeft er erg vu1 óe r10t en en het had haar niet overmatid verilloeid , al was ze er vannacht toch no~ erg mee oezig geweest(vandaar miJn geda , htes~rong naar de lin.euroonoons!) Je orief (en oo~ een van Jeanne van Delft)werd voorselezen en met apJ.1aus beGroet . Dit moet dan in het ~ort n0t vers.la~ ziJn , miJn oluadJe is trouwens al weer vol. T . Z. t. 1ui Je;; Je een fot ocopie van al onze nandte~eningen. Nu weet Je (en v0or zover ik weet is Let c __p.Leet )wie er waren en ua.1 maar ui tzo Liefs -.- _ ---· 11 ~ ._ _.., .;,,t_ 11 OUVRIR ICI / , HIER OPENEN------=--=----' ~ .n/ r?/ ' , 1 y~~J' ~1JlJV -f_ ';'1 (' "N3)11nll839 "ZN3 ' aN ~ 1 d ' S1 39 3Z .lln1 S ' N3)1Qll .lSS3\I OII N339 i N3J.ln7SNI Sl.31N (Hi-1 )l :;:'.f)..l~r 's (? ~~BT~10~ 'tü rnnq • S • ~ ~ ll30N3Z~lf/'dn3110~dX3 1.SOdl.H:lnl "B3d / NOIA'v' "B'v'd · v-s ·n ~n~rv J VfTH~ UI ' SP1C'B}{ pUB.I{) ,- ~ ·1 aA1.1a auBT+Rar o,LT '+ 113U .IélJ; . l , • d 1 JNVnBG":1; '.)SP- ~ ".UJ,11 l .Iltl 1 aVlBJ.SOdl.H:)nl 3 WW Vtl 90tl 3V ... � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_COR_1972-04-16-Lijda-to-Termaats-439 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schuurman, Lijda Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1972-04-16 Title A name given to the resource Letter about Schuurman family reunion Description An account of the resource Letter by Lijda Schuurman to Pieter and Adriana Termaat about a famiy reunion in Bergen, Netherlands. In Dutch. Subject The topic of the resource Dutch Family reunions Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource nl Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7ab7be69b40504793abfb73185697c83.mp4 9d093871cc64ffe8eb045f4ebf4e1631 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3a255476a8676e48daeff6e796734c6.pdf 0dbd3630be5ed5efa775d7e047e2e31e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Eric Schwaller (56:52)Pre Enlistment Born Sept 19 1954 in WA Moved to Allison Park, PA Father was diesel salesman for 30 years, married 54 years Attended Birchfield Elementary, until moved to Plymouth, MI, HS class of 72 Has one sister, Anne, 48 years old. Lives in Veterans Home, Grand Rapids, MI (4:20) Military Involvement He worked various odd jobs. Before enlisting after graduation He attended Basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, MO He was trained as a Loader, Tank Platoon 1st/64th Armor acting as support for 1st/15th Infantry in Germany Tour in Germany was three years long. (12:05) Leaves Army, Joins Navy Business classes, gets 9 credit He joins navy due to Unemployment. Sent to Sub school, trained on finer points of submarine Gets orders to Hawaii, drives with yeoman to San Diego, flies from Miramar to Pearl Harbor (18:38) Submarine Experiences Confined spaces required certain affability. �He was required to learn every valve on the boat. Nuclear sub carrying nukes, operated out of Guam. Performed various onboard duties. Friend only thought of women, not submarine material. (24:35) Back to the Army Spent 18 months as civilian, then re-enlisted in Army. Had to wait for background check Was stationed at Fort Bliss, TX. MOS 16Romeo Vulcan Gunnery Crew Colonel picked him as driver and offered him membership into the 101st airborne He was re stationed to Germany, tested on various vehicles Visited Auschwitz and Eagle’s nest while in Germany ETS in Germany, came home, some paperwork was missing. (39:36) (Battery Change) Army, Again Wanted to become a NCO. Underwent Examination. Became 71 Gold, but didn’t make E5 (42:20) Air Reserve Finally became noncom. Went into the Air guard, went to Grayling, Selfridge, and Alpena. Didn’t like it very much 1st/238th Battalion, worked with Heuy’s Reminisces with interviewer? (52:50) Other Army Happy about his service. Learned how to make reports. �Dad is his best friend. (56:52) Post Army Sunoco hired him as an Inspector. Tells Anecdotal stories Worked at Meijer, worked briefly at a military base. Feel empathy for those troops overseas Resident at the Coit Street facility.   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchwallerE Title A name given to the resource Schwaller, Eric (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schwaller, Eric Description An account of the resource Eric Schwaller is a very unique veteran; he served in three branches of the armed forces between 1972 and 1998. He started as a tank crewman in Germany. He joined the Navy traveled undersea in a nuclear missile-bearing nuclear submarine and returned to the army and was a member of the 101st Airborne. He then enlisted in the Air Reserve, and then transferred to the Air National Guard. He now lives in the Coit Street VA facility in Grand Rapids. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army United States. Navy United States--National Guard Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-01-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c62be0427d4ffbf98144b8fea8b70cbd.m4v bdb12f9adc05b4d6124695ff22370222 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0362b2639aafbde9d92cdf8f4cdd7d90.pdf 0118ac57dbf6d8108049286c589e316c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Francis Scott Length of interview (02:02:07) Pre-Enlistment (00:17)        Working at AC Sparkplug in Flint, Michigan. (00:18) Lived with family in Mt. Morris. (00:22) Was a Job Setter, setting up machines to cut threads for aircraft sparkplugs. (00:25) Went to Mt. Morris High School (00:36) Lettered in baseball, track and football. (00:40) Was in class plays and operas. (00:50) Remembers Pearl Harbor o Was at his Grandma‟s house in Genesee eating dinner with his family (01:09) Enlistment (01:14)         Drafted in October of 1942 (01:19) Thinks he was sworn in on October 16th (01:24) Reported on October 30 to Fort Custer, Michigan (01:28) Took away his clothes at Fort Custer, gave him a tetanus shot and a large bag of clothes to carry (01:50) Took a train out west through the northern part of the country, down through the Columbia River Valley (02:04) Got off the train at Corvallis, Oregon, and joined a group called 381st Infantry Regiment (02:16) Took a test for aptitude as a radio operator, passed it and learned to use a radio using Morse Code (02:31) Passed with a high enough score to be sent to Washington State College in June of 1943 to March of 1944 (02:45) Training (02:52)  Did physical education late in the afternoon o Lieutenant‟s name was Craig o Captain‟s name was Francis Mandel, a third string quarterback at Notre Dame (03:15) o Played scrub football  It rained a lot in the winter, didn‟t freeze very much  When they fell out for formation, they had to wear a rifle belt with a raincoat folded over (03:41)  Began learning the alphabet at about three to four words per minute (03:48) � When the alphabet was mastered, the speed was moved up and he learned to copy code with a pencil—the infantry didn‟t carry a typewriter in combat (03:58) o At 14 words per minute, he was classified as a radio operator, also fired a rifle. o Scored „sharp-shooter‟, missed „expert‟ by one point (04:27)  Talks about firing 32 shots inside of a minute with Lieutenant Craig for fun—only missed a couple shots (04:51)  At that point he did not know he would be part of the invasion of Europe (05:02) o 381st Infantry was still fighting in the South Pacific o Remembers getting letters from home about his friends being shot and killed (05:23) o Did not know where he was going to go, but the 381st Infantry, part of the 86th division, went to the South Pacific and Philippines (05:41)  Turned 21, had to go to the captain to get a permission slip to go to a liquor store to buy a bottle of „booze‟ (05:57) o Talks about the celebration, dancing with the girls in Eugene, Oregon o Learned to eat salads, “because I was broke” (07:14)  Remembers not having a lot of money o Remembers a man who used to play banjo to get money for beer and cigarettes (07:43)  Remembers a friend named Elmer Reagan (08:30) o Remembers a “quizzical look on his face, like he wasn‟t the brightest bulb on the Christmas Tree” (08:35) o Remembers Elmer getting poison oak (11:23) o Talks about married men in the division. (12:47)  Began hiking, first six, then twelve miles (13:08) o At twenty-six miles, Elmer was dropping behind o Discovered Elmer had a heart problem and Elmer was discharged (13:26) o Lost contact with Elmer Fort Lewis, Washington (15:10)  Remembers “Rosie the Riveter” o A girl he took out to the movies who was named Rosie, she was a riveter at a shipyard (15:36)  Was called down to the army personnel office division headquarters, he was asked if he wanted to go to college o He was told the army was selecting people to learn engineering o He was eligible to go because he passed his “Army General Certification Test” high enough (16:27) o He accepted, he was told it was Idaho University—he was there for a week before being shipped to Washington State College (17:03) o Spent forty hours a week in class  Was determined to stay out of the infantry—Lieutenant Craig wanted him to be in Intelligence and Reconnaissance, there was a two-hundred percent casualty rate in the first month (18:06)  Remembers a very strict Captain (19:11) � Describes his dormitory o Eight men, with four double bunks and two desks (19:51) o Was a Cadet Lieutenant, marched his section of twenty men to and from classes  Describes his comrades (21:16)  In September of 1943, he returned home (22:05) o Describes the rationing of food and gas, cars weren‟t being made o Manufacturing plants made machine guns and tank parts instead o Liked to go back to AC Sparkplugs and flirt with the girls (23:18)  Remembers other soldiers from his high school (25:19) o “They did a good job turning civilians into soldiers” o Everyone knew someone in the war effort o Tells a story about “Dirty George” (28:40) o Tells a story about the romance of another friend (31:20) **break in the video** Washington State College (34:04)  “Future Officers” o Would end up doing civil engineering  In winter of 1944, there was a buildup in England about D-day (34:52) o The end of March, the program he was in would be terminated o A few were persuaded to go to medical school  “Field Expedience” is how you survive (36:05)  Tells about a roadblock he once helped set up (37:45) o Were testing Artillery Camp Cook (39:25)     Joined the Radio Division of Camp Cook, California Tells a story about his trip to Los Angeles (41:13) Was always very foggy Tells a story about driving friends home in very dense fog while stationed at Camp Cook (43:51)  Went on Furlough in June (44:40) o Fourteen days o “The smell of the foliage and the hay, it‟s different than California, you know you‟re home” (45:17) o Shortly after D-day o Visited his friends, no dates, was writing a girl already (46:57) o Did not have the self-confidence to court seriously o Tells about his sisters and their love interests (48:17)  Returns back and receives a letter telling him of his sisters‟ double wedding (49:37)  Takes a trip through San Francisco, Denver and the Rio Grande o Would do exercises when the train was stopped or delayed (50:28) � Went to New Jersey o There were German prisoners of war (50:51) o Regiment was marched out at night for a lesson on how sound will travel at night—learned to be cautious at night (52:27) o Left Brooklyn at night on the HMS Cimmeria (53:43) HMS Cimmeria (53:43)      Off the coast of Cape Cod there were ships as far as the eye could see (53:47) September 30, 1944 1one of the largest convoys to leave Didn‟t like smoked fish, so bought cookies and Ginger Ale (54:24) There were Baby Flattops, Destroyer Escorts, Destroyers (54:55) Had a sense of how the war was going in Europe o “We knew by then that they had busted through in St. Lo and they were in the eastern part of France.” (55:49)  Knew they had liberated Paris, knew about the casualties of D-Day (56:03)  Had to decide on career, relationships, so when the army took over, they felt free, postponing their decisions (56:54)  Arrived in England October 12th England (58:02)  Left December 9th or 20th  Remembers that Machine Guns and Sub Machine Guns were packed in a heavy grease, had to wash them off now that they would not be corroded by the salt in the air (59:12)  Remembers a Lieutenant whose jeep was so loaded with armor plate, “it was a wonder it could even move” (1:00:28)  The army called jeeps “peeps”  Remembers going to see Stonehenge, Salisbury, went to see Bath, talked to the girls in Bristol at the cigarette factories, danced the hokey-pokey with the English girls (1:01:01) **tape switches** Active Duty (1:01:24)  Well aware of the Germans being in disguise in American uniforms, they had found a weak point in the Allied lines in the Ardennes Forest (1:01:28)  Loaded up and drove to Weymouth, England (1:01:31)  Boarded an LST 510, sailed across the channel to Cherbourg Bay o Was down on the tank deck, when General Quarters Alarm sounded (1:02:27) o Before the alarm they heard a “horrible screeching, wrenching sound of metal on metal” (1:02:36) o Was high tide, and there was a sunken super-structure there which tore out some armor from the bottom of the boat (1:03:07) o The damage was near the engine room, compartments in the bottom of the ship �stopped the spread of water, but the lights went out and they were on auxiliary batteries (1:03:25) o They were ordered to the top deck, and told to go over the side of the ship, remembers that no one broke their leg on the long drop (1:04:59)  The Germans were concentrating on the Bulge, back in England they had worried about Buzz Bombs  There was another LST, which they boarded for the night. In the morning the 510 was next to them (1:06:05)  Drove off to a Gasoline dump, where they were told to stay until told otherwise (1:06:36) o Remembers being stationed near the farm house nearby o A large car comes up, with a woman and man in it who request to talk to the commander, remembers being told to help the man load gasoline into his car (1:07:32) o The man tells them he was in the Maquis (1:08:07)  Went to Paris, stayed the night in a small French city o Remembers being freezing (1:08:26) o Another soldier, Sparta, rigged a jeep for warmth (1:09:56)  Tells a story about two French men who share a drink with the soldiers (1:11:18)  Was in Paris the 22nd or 23rd of December, was going to help out the Americans in the Battle of the Bulge (1:12:39)  Celebrated Christmas in France  While staying in Belgian barracks, they persuaded other soldiers to give them extra blankets (1:14:32)  Went into a radio park, were monitoring the 4th Armored Division, had mortar shells dropped on them (1:15:29)  Remembers getting reports that the Germans were getting pushed back (1:15:47)  Was up in a pine tree for the night, they dug a trench and put rocks in the bottom, covered the rocks with dead branches and made a fire (1:16:38)  Was about 4-5 miles from the front at that point  Describes in great detail formation and their orders (1:18:01) o Were supposed to send and receive messages  Was in a 5 man crew, names the members of the group (1:19:53) o Describes his shift, from 12 am to 3 am o Never ran out of battery power or gas (1:21:04) o Had to be there in case a general needed something done  Describes the chain of communication with wires and radios (1:22:17)  Busiest day: (1:22:04) o In a valley, a butte nearby, enemy on the high side o Pulled tanks up and fired from where they couldn‟t be seen o Problems with communication, signal strength minimal (1:23:09) o Put up extra antennas, kept working on it for 3-4 hours  Describes wiring communications through a house (1:24:58)  Tells a story about his friend, Sparta o Sparta broke out a window of a house they found, put a lard can in the broken window (1:25:50) �o Rigged the stove, built a fire to make themselves more comfortable  January or February of 1945 (1:27:26) Route to the Battle of the Bulge (1:28:07)  Reads statistics about the Battle of the Bulge o Germans had 550 thousand troops, lost 120 thousand (1:28:30) o 50 thousand English, 50 thousand US troops; 19 thousand killed (1:29:19) o Movement of troops to Europe largest migration of humans in history  Went to a small town in Belgium for about 10 days  Didn‟t have hot water until 3-4 weeks in combat (1:30:57) o Didn‟t do anything on the radio for a week  Went to another small town o One soldier fixed up an old accordion (1:32:47)  Scott stands and begins pointing to a map (1:33:19) o In 6 days, went over 50 miles o Describes a Pontoon Bridge (1:34:31) o Describes going to a warehouse and getting wine  Normal Rations (1:36:00) o GI food o Breakfast: Cooked eggs, toast, coffee, sometimes powdered eggs, or French toast o Supper: various meals o Describes going through a usual supper routine (1:36:42)  Scott moves back to the map (1:37:17) o Captured about 10 thousand troops near where Scott points at o Points at Worms, captured 17 thousand there o Scott traces route further o Discovered “slave laborers” for the first time, but not surprised (1:39:00)  Worms: o One night a German convoy went alongside their position, Americans opened fire and killed them all. Took some supplies and traded them (1:40:33) o The supplies were traded to a baker; they received pies back, and the baker gave the bread made with the supplies to the starving German people Battle of the Bulge (1:41:09)  Would wake up early and start heading towards the area (1:42:01)  Sometimes would stop and wait for 2-3 days before intelligence decided where to go next, or for gasoline  Was shot at, got up in the turret of the halftrack, shot into the woods and told his comrades to go tell the commander what had taken place (1:43:33)  Later learned that a Red Cross worker had been shot and injured  Scott‟s gun jammed, picked up the driver‟s 45 and kept firing (1:44:30)  Started seeing dead bodies along the road, in civilian clothes, some were Jewish � Several days later, found emaciated people walking back down the road o So thin that when the wind blew “you could see the triangle of their femurs” (1:45:28)  Near an open field, there was counter intelligence and 13 German prisoners. o Saw a pile of bodies about 30 ft long and 3 to 4 ft high (1:45:19) o 3 “Political Prisoners” grabbed machine guns, marched by 6 to 9 Nazi soldiers to a gully and shot them(1:46:56) o “Death March” started out with around 50 thousand prisoners, many were killed  He was disgusted and angry (1:48:17)  Events took place in April, 1945  Tells another story about Sparta, and how he found ways to get a hot meal o Doesn‟t know what happened to him after the war (1:50:28) After the War (1:51:12)  Captured Linz, Austria: found two concentration camps (1:51:18) o German civilians were made to pick up the bodies in the concentration camp and bury them (1:52:06)  Was the furthest East of any unit  Contacted Russians in May  Scott‟s unit, 11th Armed Division, captured 79,299 prisoners  Tells about his “unique experience” with prisoners (1:53:14) o War was almost over, April 23rd o Scott changes the map o Outside of a small town o It was late in the afternoon, and he had stomach cramps, went to use the bathroom behind a bush. He spots 5 Hungarian soldiers coming over the ridge o They had 3 white flags, a Hungarian National Flag and a Regimental Flag (1:54:52) o Directs the soldiers back to his unit, and tells his commanding officers he believes they want to surrender o Decided to go back and get his shovel afterwards, his friends tell him he should have gotten the Hungarian‟s pistols, they sold for 100 dollars apiece (1:57:34)  Scott points out on the map, tells that the Hungarians surrendered 2000 men. Final Thoughts (1:58:48)  Believes there is not enough recognition of D-Day, Pearl Harbor, VE-day, Battle of the Bulge and other important events in World War II (1:59:03)  Believes these events should never be forgotten, and is proud of his division  Tells about a website for the 11th Armored Division (1:59:47) o Submits articles to them and keeps in touch � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ScottF Title A name given to the resource Scott, Francis (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scott, Francis Description An account of the resource Francis Scott was drafted in October of 1942. He was trained to be a radio operator and attended college at Washington State from June of 1943 to March of 1944. He was stationed in California for a short while before he was sent to Europe, where he served in England, the Battle of the Bulge and the invasion of Germany as a radio operator in the 11th Armored Division. At the end of the war he saw many refugees, helped liberate two concentration camps, and participated in the capture of 2,000 Hungarian soldiers in Austria. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Montagna, Douglas (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-11-16 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f623e9afbf90aecd7dd27044a813b380.mp4 6debabf88394325e029d81bef2767d6d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9636e672851f2982e3519aba2526833a.pdf 180fb1696b37008008b3bc22ccaa1af7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Joseph Scott Vietnam War Interview Length: (00:58:46:00) Training / National Guard (00:00:42:00)  When Scott first joined the military, he joined the Michigan National Guard and he was still a junior in high school (00:00:42:00) o Scott’s father thought it would be a good idea for Scott to join the National Guard as a way to get out of the draft (00:00:53:00)  The week after Scott’s graduation from high school, he began the active-duty requirement for his enlistment, which was supposed to last six months and include both basic training and Advanced Infantry Training (AIT) (00:01:04:00) o Once Scott began his active-duty portion, he took a train ride to Fort Jackson, Mississippi (00:01:23:00) o By the time Scott arrived at Fort Jackson, it was around four o’clock in the morning and he received his first taste of being in the military when he and the other recruits were ordered to get off the train and stand in a line (00:01:42:00) o Once off the train, Scott and the other recruits were marched onto buses, which then took them into Fort Jackson (00:01:55:00)  The recruits were allowed a couple of hours rest before being woken to receive their haircuts and uniforms (00:02:05:00)  Soon after, the recruits were split up to the specific bases where they would go through training; Scott ended up going to Fort Gordon, Georgia for his basic training (00:02:22:00) o Scott arrived at Fort Gordon in the middle of summer and during the summer of 1965, it was rather hot (00:02:32:00)  Scott and the other recruits had to line up every morning before breakfast for physical training, which consisted of calisthenics and a run, which was originally only a mile long but soon increased in length, eventually topping out at fourteen miles per day (00:02:43:00)  After the physical training, the recruits had breakfast, returned to their barracks, and went to the training sessions for the day, which ranged anywhere from firing weapons to marching to learning the do’s and don’ts of military life (00:03:12:00) o The training at Fort Gordon lasted for eight weeks, after which Scott traveled to Fort Ord, California (00:03:52:00)  When he first went to Fort Ord, Scott flew into San Francisco following a thirty-day leave and took a bus down to Fort Ord, which was situated on the Monterey Peninsula (00:04:11:00)  Fort Ord looked nothing like a traditional military facility; in Scott’s opinion, it was the nicest military facility he ever served at (00:04:20:00)  It was at Fort Ord that Scott and the other recruits learned about specific military tactics, as well as continued physical training (00:04:34:00) �  During their final physical proficiency test, Scott remembers that he and the other recruits had to get past a number of obstacles, including monkey bars and doing the low-crawl, all of which had to be done in a certain amount of time (00:04:46:00) o As well, the men also had to run a mile on a track that had been built on the side of a hill (00:05:12:00) o After he completed the AIT at Fort Ord, Scott was released from active-duty to join the Michigan National Guard (00:05:36:00) When Scott first joined his National Guard unit after training, he only had to go to the monthly meetings (00:05:49:00) o At the time, Scott’s National Guard was not a “ready reactive unit”, which meant they were not in the queue for deployment to Vietnam and did not have the most up-to-date and modern equipment (00:05:51:00)  Nevertheless, Scott and the other men in the unit still had to “play soldier”, which involved going to Camp Grayling to act as “aggressor forces” and train against those National Guard units who had been activated for deployment to Vietnam (00:06:03:00)  Scott remembers that one time, he ended up being captured; however, the soldiers who captured him and some of the other soldiers in his unit were not paying too much attention to them, so Scott hopped into the driver’s seat of the deuce-and-a-half truck they were in and took off down the road (00:06:32:00)  Another time, Scott and the other soldiers had regrouped and were told to do an assault during the night (00:07:02:00) o Scott and the soldiers were supposed to wait for the other unit to come through the area but ended up falling asleep and the other unit went right by the men (00:07:17:00) o In the morning, the men heard gunshots coming towards them, so they got up and one of the men in Scott’s squad made an improvised Molotov cocktail, which he then threw at the tank; as the tank burned, the men ran in the other direction, straight into the “enemy” unit that had snuck through during the night (00:07:34:00) o Even though they ran straight into the other unit, Scott and the other soldiers in his unit managed to capture all the soldiers in the other unit (00:08:01:00) o At the time, Scott had a job working in Grand Haven and was taking classes at the local community college (00:08:12:00)  However, it all seemed sort of a drag for Scott, so he thought about going onto active duty, if for nothing else than to receive the GI Bill; initially, Scott’s enlistment in the National Guard was supposed to last for six years, which was not too bad (00:08:25:00) o Nevertheless, Scott eventually made the decision to go onto active-duty in the regular Army (00:08:54:00)  Scott remembers that when he went to the local recruiting office to go in the regular Army, he had a couple of choices about what his job in the �    Army would be; of the choices, Scott remembers two specifically: microwave technician and aircraft engine repairman (00:08:57:00)  Although Scott had already been trained as an infantryman, he did not want to go into that (00:09:30:00)  Eventually, Scott chose aircraft engine repair, which was what he had scored highest in for his aptitude tests (00:09:34:00) Within a matter of weeks, Scott was off to Fort Knox, Kentucky and then on to Fort Eustis, Virginia for training (00:09:45:00) o Initially, Scott was “put back into the system”; he received his haircut and uniforms (00:09:56:00) o The reasons why Scott decided to go onto active duty were equal parts getting money to pay for his education and curiosity about what was happening in Vietnam (00:10:05:00) Prior to actually doing so, Scott had psychologically prepared himself to deploy to Vietnam; he had signed the paperwork and whatever came afterwards, he was going to accept it (00:10:25:00) o Scott’s first recollection of hearing about the Vietnam War was in 1963; although the nightly news occasionally showed videos of anti-war protestors, the coverage of the war had not yet grown to what it would eventually be (00:11:01:00)  In 1964, Scott recalls an incident happening in Vietnam where several Americans were killed and it was after that incident that Scott remembers actual American combat units being sent to Vietnam (00:11:37:00)  For the most part, Scott did not pay too much attention to news about Vietnam but he still knew about the conflict (00:12:02:00) o Scott’s uncle had died fighting in Korea during the Korean War and that hung in the back of his mind; in a way, Scott believed he should serve in the active duty to “bring back” the Scott family name (00:12:15:00)  Both Scott’s father and grandfather served in the Army, so there was a tradition of military service within Scott’s family (00:12:44:00) When Scott arrived at Fort Eustis, he went through all the training for aircraft engine repair, after which he and the other soldiers received their assignments, with Scott’s being to deploy to Vietnam (00:13:03:00) o When Scott was at Fort Knox, he was asked point-blank where he wanted to serve and he said “Vietnam” (00:13:23:00)  When the officer instead offered Scott an assignment in Belgium, Scott declined and said he wanted to deploy to Vietnam, which surprised the officer (00:13:28:00)  The officer tried to convince Scott to take the assignment in Belgium because Scott had relatives living in Belgium at the time, which would have been good PR for the Army (00:13:41:00) There was about a year-and-a-half between when Scott finished his National Guard training at Fort Ord and began his active-duty enlistment (00:14:06:00) o During that time, Scott was working and attempting to take classes; however, working twelve hours a day and trying to take even a single class was a tough proposition (00:14:23:00) �   Scott was working in the shipping department of a company, crating up refrigeration units for the PXs (Post Exchanges) on military bases in Vietnam; however, when Scott got over to Vietnam, he saw that apart from being used in the PXs, those refrigeration units were being used to store dead bodies for Graves Registration (00:14:33:00) After he training finished at Fort Eustis, Scott was told to report to Fort Lewis, Washington en-route to Vietnam (00:15:16:00) o After leaving Fort Lewis, Scott first flew to Fairbanks, Alaska, then to Tokyo, Japan and finally to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam (00:15:33:00)  Scott liked his brief stay in Tokyo so much that he ended up going back there later on an R&R (Rest and Recuperation) (00:15:51:00)  The flight(s) over to Vietnam were aboard a jetliner owned by an airliner named Braniff; Scott remembers the airliner’s name because they had chosen the oddest color to paint their jetliners, a “baby poop yellow” (00:16:03:00) o The flight landed at Cam Ranh Bay in the early morning hours and Scott remembers walking up to the doorway and feeling a huge blast of heat; to Scott, it was like walking next to a blast furnace (00:16:53:00) o Once they were off the jetliner, Scott and the other soldiers went through processing, updating their paperwork and checking their shot records; if someone lost their shot records, they had to go through all the shots again (00:17:10:00)  Once the soldiers were through processing, they received a small book that gave a brief history of Vietnam and information about the various locations the soldiers would be assigned to (00:17:35:00)  Scott had always been raised to treat people how he wanted to be treated, so he became friends with several Vietnamese who worked on the base where he was stationed (00:17:58:00) o Cam Ranh Bay was only a temporary stop for Scott to just go through processing and eventually, he and the other soldiers were broken down into battalions; once in battalions, the men were assigned to companies (00:18:25:00)  Scott ended up being assigned 34th Battalion, 14th Transportation Division, which was headquartered in the city of Nha Trang (00:18:44:00)  Once in Nha Trang, Scott was informed that he would be joining a unit stationed in Qui Nhơn, which meant he would either joined the 540th Transportation Company or the 79th Transportation Company; Scott ended up joined the 540th Transportation (00:18:56:00)  Apart from aircraft maintenance, the 540th also did General Support, which meant they could do anything up to completely rebuilding a destroyed aircraft (00:19:22:00) Scott was with the 540th Transportation for about a month before he was assigned to airfield security; the security force for the airfield where the company was stationed drew soldiers from all the units stationed on the airfield (00:19:34:00) o Scott and the other soldiers had always been taught that above all else, they were infantrymen; it did not matter if their assignment was to be a cook, or mechanic, or something else, they were infantrymen first (00:19:59:00) � o Although Scott did not want to be a spit-and-shine soldier, he would still keep his brass polished and his shoes shined in attempts to get out of having to go on guard duty for the night (00:20:16:00)  However, there were other soldiers in the security force who would go above and beyond, polishing their shoes until they could see their face in the reflection (00:20:37:00)  When the commander of the security force asked why Scott did not shine his shoes and do all the extra stuff, Scott explained that if something happened, he wanted to be out there (00:20:45:00) The area around Qui Nhơn was oddly shaped; it started out wide and then narrowed down into a peninsula into the South China Sea, with the airfield built near the base of the peninsula (00:21:19:00) o Beyond the airfield was a line of what Scott labeled as hills, although others labeled them as mountains (00:21:40:00) o In between the hills was what the soldiers had labeled “the Valley”, which was where the majority of the fighting in the area took place; the Valley was about three miles away from the airfield (00:21:55:00) o The Vietnamese people living in the area felt more secure near the American forces, so they built their houses right up to the security fences for the airfield (00:22:19:00)  Although having the houses close to the airfield made the Vietnamese feel safe, it did not allow for a killing zone for the security force (00:22:29:00)  One end of the airfield’s runway jutted up to the South China Sea with a road going around it while the other end was surrounded by the tin shanties and houses of the Vietnamese civilians (00:22:39:00)  One time, a C-130 transport coming in for a landing lost its brakes, slid off the end of the runway, and destroyed all of the shanties and houses built there (00:22:54:00)  The Vietnamese had a small bicycle-like device called a cyclo that they would use as a quasi-taxi and once, when Scott was assigned to a guard tower near the South China Sea, a cyclo was going past with a GI sitting inside (00:23:17:00)  A C-130 was reviving up for a takeover on the runway, so the GI quickly got out before the cyclo was blown down the road; the Vietnamese pedaling the cyclo never let go and went tumbling right along with it down the road (00:23:28:00) o Stationed in an area next to the airfield was a South Korean military unit (00:23:51:00) o Eventually, Scott was assigned to work in the guard tower for his company area, although he was still considered part of the airfield security force (00:24:14:00)  Around Christmas, a couple of Scott’s friends in the company, who knew he had been assigned to the guard tower, brought him dinner (00:24:22:00) o Scott trusted the local Vietnamese who he interacted with (00:24:41:00) �   However, there was one younger Vietnamese living in the area and the soldiers could tell that he was Viet Cong, just by reading his mannerism and the way he acted (00:24:47:00)  One night, when Scott was again assigned to the guard tower, he saw Vietnamese with rifles strapped on their backs riding bicycles out in the open and naturally assumed they were Viet Cong (00:25:21:00)  Scott called into the security force to report what he had seen and the ask if he had permission to fire on them; however, he was told not to fire until he was fired upon (00:25:39:00) o Although Scott acknowledged the order, he did not feel comfortable just letting what might have been Viet Cong just slip away because he knew they were going to cause some damage somewhere (00:25:57:00)  There was a detachment of U.S. Navy personnel also stationed on the airfield and the Viet Cong Scott had seen ended up attacking the area where Navy personnel were located (00:26:09:00) Once Scott completed his first assignment with airfield security, he was sent back to his original company (00:26:34:00) o At the time Scott rejoined it, the company had a large backlog of aircraft that either needed to be repaired or rebuilt (00:26:49:00)  In the cases where an aircraft was too badly damaged for the men to repair, they sent it back to Oakland, California for repair (00:26:55:00)  At the time, there was a “lull” in the fighting and the soldiers were rebuilding aircraft just so they would have something to do (00:27:03:00) o When Scott first joined his company in Vietnam, the company was working with old piston-driven helicopters; however, those were being phased out and replaced with newer helicopters, the ubiquitous Huey (00:27:15:00) o Apart from repairing and rebuilding aircraft, there was also a facility set up on the airfield to test repaired and rebuilt aircraft engines (00:27:32:00) o One day, after Scott had returned to the company, he was working during the second shift when all of a sudden, he and the other soldiers heard gunfire hitting the side of their hanger (00:27:39:00) o When Scott first arrived in Qui Nhơn, the company’s power came from a generator set-up in the company area (00:27:59:00)  However, the Viet Cong eventually snuck into the company area, threw a satchel charge under the generator, destroying the generator and knocking out the company’s power (00:28:07:00)  A couple of months later, the Navy sailed a ship into Qui Nhơn harbor and parked it next to the airfield; from the ship, the personnel on the airfield were able to draw a steady supply of power (00:28:13:00)  However, every once in a while, the Viet Cong would destroy the power lines leading from the ship to the airfield (00:28:39:00) In Scott’s opinion, if he or someone else did not have at least a little bit of fear in them, they were going to do something stupid; that was something his father had told him and it was something Scott followed for his entire tour (00:29:06:00) o Usually, Scott would write two letters a week to his parents (00:29:29:00) � At one point, Scott was sent to Tân Sơn Nhứt Air Base near Saigon gone to go through a training program, both as a refresher course and to update him on any new techniques that had been developed (00:29:43:00) o The first day Scott was at Tân Sơn Nhứt, the base came under the first major enemy mortar and rocket attack Scott had ever been in; according to what Scott heard later, the enemy launched one hundred and seventy-two rockets that night alone (00:30:21:00) o Tân Sơn Nhứt was just a stop-over for Scott; the actual school was located in a town named Vũng Tàu, which was supposedly a safe area manned by Australian and American soldiers (00:31:17:00)  The school at Vũng Tàu was a training facility for all Army aircraft personnel (00:31:31:00)  While Scott was waiting at Tân Sơn Nhứt for a helicopter to take him to Vũng Tàu, the rocket attack happened; as soon as the attack happened, Scott woke up, grabbed a corner of the mattress he had been sleeping on, and rolled onto the floor (00:31:41:00)  A lieutenant who was sleeping nearby asked what Scott was doing and Scott said if there was debris, it would have to go through that mattress first; the lieutenant then did the same thing (00:32:09:00) o The day after the enemy mortar and rocket attack, Scott and the other personnel could see where the incoming rounds had hit; luckily, nothing hit the building where Scott was sleeping, although they were close (00:32:21:00) o The whole time Scott was in the safe area at Vũng Tàu, he could not sleep because he was so used to a commotion happening during the night, such as the enemy sending up flares (00:32:49:00)  Scott finished the training at Vũng Tàu, returned to Qui Nhơn, and slept like a baby that first night (00:33:01:00) Tet Offensive / Misc. Stories (00:33:23:00)  By February 1968, Scott and the other personnel on the airfield had heard whispers about an offensive during the upcoming Tet holiday; although the airfield had already gone through one Tet offensive, it had not been too bad (00:33:23:00) o Tet was the start of the Vietnamese New Year’s celebration and during the first offensive, although the area around the airfield was hit, it was not bad and most of the fighting was confined to the Valley (00:33:37:00) o According to what the men had been hearing, the Tet offensive in 1968 was supposed to begin February 1st; however, Scott did not believe that and told a friend that he (Scott) thought the Viet Cong were going to attack them on February 22nd at two o’clock in the morning (00:34:01:00)  Just as Scott somehow predicted, the Viet Cong ended up attacking the airfield on February 22nd at two o’clock in the morning (00:34:17:00) o Once the attack on February 22nd happened, “all hell broke loose”; apart from lobbing mortar and rocket rounds onto the airfield, the Viet Cong were also trying to get through the various gates around the airfield, although the personnel manning the gates managed to stop them (00:34:20:00) � When the gates closed at night, the personnel defending the gates would pull spools of concertina razor wire across the entrance (00:35:17:00)  The security force for the airfield was unable to booby-trap outside the perimeter fence because the Vietnamese housing butted directly up to the fence (00:36:02:00)  Whenever a soldier was assigned to tower guard duty, he was given three flares; one flare was illumination, one flare was red to signal the tower was under attack, and one flare was green, although Scott cannot remember what it signaled (00:36:34:00)  When the Tet offensive began, one of the men in the security force was in a guard tower built on an area where the airfield’s perimeter suddenly jutted out and that was surrounded on three sides by Vietnamese houses (00:36:57:00) o As the Vietnamese started coming through the houses, the man in the tower tried to set off one of his flares; when one of the flares finally did go off, it nearly took the man’s helmet off, shot through the guard tower and floated into the airfield (00:37:08:00) o The man in the guard tower was lucky that there was a reactionary force that was able to come in and give him support (00:37:25:00) o By the time the Tet offensive began, Scott was back on guard duty, although he was on the other side of the airfield from where the incident with the flare occurred (00:37:35:00)  When Scott was on guard duty, officers would occasionally come by to check and make sure Scott and the other guards were alert (00:37:54:00)  Once, one of the officers making the rounds was wearing an Army raincoat; however, the way the lights were set up and the color of the raincoat made it hard to see the officer (00:38:01:00)  Scott “captured” the officer and held him until the sergeant-of-theguard came out to verify that who the officer was; because the officer was not wearing any symbols of his rank, Scott was within his right to hold the officer (00:38:28:00) o In the end, the airfield ended up being under siege for four days during the Tet Offensive (00:39:52:00)  The personnel on the airfield were told to hold the airfield for those four days and they would then be relieved by soldiers from the 1st Cavalry Division (00:39:56:00)  For the most part, the personnel were taking enemy fire and were not sending much back (00:40:11:00)  If the 1st Cavalry had not shown up, there was a ready-reactionary force on the airfield that was going to go into the town of Qui Nhơn itself and clear the town out house-to-house (00:40:24:00)  However, the soldiers in the ready-reactionary force had not been trained in fighting house-to-house and the houses in Qui Nhơn �     were especially treacherous because there were so many different nooks and crannies (00:40:38:00)  Scott was the only soldier on the ready-reactionary force who had any sort of infantry training; although all the personnel had gone through basic training, Scott was the only one who had gone through advanced infantry training (00:41:01:00)  Nevertheless, the 1st Cavalry did come in after four days and cleared the town out (00:41:15:00)  During the siege was the first time the personnel on the airfield had to eat C-Rations because the airfield’s cooks had been re-assigned to help guard the perimeter (00:41:28:00)  At one point during the siege, Scott was located in a bunker that took a direct hit from an enemy mortar round (00:41:38:00)  The “bunker” consisted of a metal shipping containers topped with three or four layers of sandbags and surrounded by another layer of sandbags; occasionally, two shipping containers were placed sideby-side to make the bunker bigger (00:41:53:00)  To this day, the low-end of Scott’s hearing is not normal as a result of the concussion from when mortar round impacted (00:42:25:00)  None of the soldiers in the bunker were wounded, although if the bunker had been hit by multiple mortar rounds, it might have been a different story (00:42:38:00) The personnel on the airfield had Mama-sans who would come onto the airfield to do the men’s laundry, with the men paying them each week; as well, there was also Vietnamese kitchen-help and carpenters who worked on the base (00:43:02:00) o One day, Scott came out of his hooch and saw one of the Vietnamese workers counting off steps (00:43:25:00)  Scott told his platoon sergeant what he had seen and when the Vietnamese worker left for the day, they stopped him at the gate and found he had marked down the distances for everything on the airfield (00:43:46:00) Scott eventually took an extension of his tour and part of the extension was a thirty-day leave, so Scott ended up coming home for Christmas (00:44:35:00) o Scott’s family had a space-heater in their house and Scott spent most of his time home sitting next to it; his body was so used to be being in 130°s and midsummer weather (00:44:56:00) During his tour, Scott knew he was witnessing history, which served as incentive for him to take as many pictures as he could of what he saw and to try to obtain as much materials as he could (00:45:27:00) Whenever he received a promotion, Scott had to fly from Qui Nhơn back to Tân Sơn Nhứt and during the flight, the helicopter would fly out over the ocean (00:46:07:00) At one point, Scott received an R&R to go to Japan, which was seven days being out of enemy gunfire and harm’s way (00:46:19:00) o Scott looked at the R&R partially as an educational opportunity, where he could learn about yet another culture (00:46:35:00)  Scott liked going to Japan, especially because the Japanese people were very friendly (00:46:41:00) �      o During the R&R, Scott ended up riding on a Japanese bullet train and hydrofoil, visiting the Olympic village in Tokyo, visiting a religious temple, and seeing Mt. Fuji from a distancing (00:46:47:00) o Scott ended up staying in a place labeled “the Japanese Riviera”, which was centered around the town of Atami (00:47:12:00) While working in his company, one of the jobs Scott really got involved in was ordering parts for the company’s engine shop; the personnel working in the engine shop always wanted spare parts on-hand so they never had to wait for parts to come in (00:47:25:00) o Over time, Scott impressed the others with how organized his work was in regards to making sure there were always spare parts (00:47:45:00)  At one point, a warrant officer in a Cobra attack helicopter unit came in looking for spare parts (00:47:52:00)  Scott asked what the warrant officer was looking for and when the officer told him, Scott gave him the parts; after the officer left, Scott’s platoon sergeant asked why Scott had given the officer the parts and Scott said it was a good thing if the other unit wanted to make the repairs (00:48:11:00)  A couple of days later, the warrant officer came back and asked if Scott would like to take a ride in one of the Cobras; Scott asked for just a minute so he could go and grab his camera (00:48:32:00) During one night, Scott was able to watch an attack by an Air Force gunship named “Puff, the Magic Dragon” (00:48:53:00) o The gunships consisted of three mini-guns all pointed out of one side of the aircraft; the aircraft would fly in a circle with that side pointed towards the ground and each mini-gun would fire in 30sec bursts (00:49:06:00) o The personnel who worked on the gunship told the other men that a single 30sec burst could cover every square inch of a football field (00:49:22:00) o Another time, Scott watched gun strafing runs made by F-4 Phantom jet fighters (00:49:43:00) Scott was only injured once during his tour, when he jumped out of a helicopter, twisted his ankle, and tore some of his ligaments (00:49:54:00) o Although the Army was willing to give him a Purple Heart for the injury, Scott declined (00:50:05:00) Scott spent the majority of his tour at Qui Nhơn, although couple of times he went into the Valley to help dispose of old sheet metal at a dumpsite (00:50:28:00) o When the soldiers got to the dumpsite, they were swarmed by Vietnamese; although the men were initially suspicious, they talked it over and decided to let the Vietnamese had the sheet metal to use in their homes (00:51:05:00) A couple of the tricks the Viet Cong used were booby-trapping left-over American supplies and wrapping a grenade in electrical tape and throwing it into the fuel reservoir of a downed aircraft; when the Americans came to pick up the aircraft, it was a readymade bomb (00:51:35:00) Given the location of the airfield, the personnel had access to a beach right on the South China Sea and Scott went there a couple of times (00:52:05:00) �    o At the time, there was a branch of the Army called Special Services and it was their job to take care of all recreational facilities for the soldiers, such as a the beach at Qui Nhơn (00:52:18:00) During his tour, Scott happened to run into a girl who he had gone to grade school with in Michigan and who was working as a nurse (00:52:56:00) From his experiences, Scott and the other soldiers kept the same attitude throughout their entire tour (00:53:15:00) o However, Scott did not realize how unpopular the war had become in the United States until he returned home (00:53:29:00)  On his way home, Scott had to go through Seattle-Tacoma International Airport and as he was walking through the airport, someone walked up to him, spit on him, and called him a “baby-killer” (00:53:44:00)  After the incident in the airport, Scott’s attitude changed and he became more resentful of the anti-war protestors (00:54:01:00) o Most of the soldiers Scott served with did a good job in their assignments but above all else, they just wanted to get home (00:54:30:00) Some of the other veterans Scott knows have mental problems as a result of their time in the service and when Scott himself came home, he had nightmares at first (00:54:56:00) o One night, Scott ran out of his house scream that they were under attack and he threw a punch at his father, who was already up and getting ready to go to work; Scott’s father replied by punching Scott and knocking him out before putting him back in his bed (00:55:28:00)  Scott’s father knew what Scott was going through, have served in combat himself (00:55:41:00) o When he started going to community college, Scott had a psychology professor and one night, Scott and the professor sat and just talked; it was the professor who suggested Scott talk about what he had gone through (00:56:00:00)  The professor rationalized Scott’s experiences in that he had been put into a situation where either Scott had to kill the enemy or the enemy was going to kill him (00:56:30:00)  Although the professor said Scott did not need to talk about everything that happened, he should at least bring out enough to ease the anxiety built up inside him (00:56:41:00) Scott has not really stayed in contact with the other men he served with; for the most part, once the men got home, it was just the fact that they had made it through and were happy to be home (00:56:52:00) o One of the constant things the men talked about was wanting to go home and what they were going to do when they got there; one of Scott’s biggest cravings was to have a McDonald’s hamburger (00:57:12:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ScottJ1477V Title A name given to the resource Scott, Joseph (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scott, Joseph Description An account of the resource In order to avoid the draft, while still a junior in high school, Joseph Scott elected to join the Michigan National Guard in 1965. After about a year and a half in the guard, he decided to go on active duty and trained as an aircraft mechanic at Fort Eustis, Virginia. He volunteered for Vietnam, and was assigned to the 540th Transportation Company, 34th Battalion, 14th Transportation Division stationed at an airfield in Qui Nhơn. While at the Qui Nhơn airfield, Scott split his time between working as a mechanic and as part of the base security force. He also spent some time Tan Son Nhut and Vung Tau. During Scott's tour, which he extended to a second year, he experienced the 1968 Tet offensive, during which the Viet Cong placed the Qui Nhơn airfield under a four-day siege. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Montagna, Douglas (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-01-22 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/708c52f62a0f4273633b405299ef5c20.mp4 32f9943c6fb5d3f394e4eb9220d22e37 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c4ac5150b2112f36d0f21bc64061935.pdf 548654c5b7c1b9cf041041dc9f47dc36 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Ken Scott (01:25:32) (00:01) Background Information • • • Ken was born in Alma, MI in 1937 His parents were teachers He went to Central Michigan University in 1955 and graduated in 1960 (01:06) Training • • • ROTC training was mandatory for the first 2 years of collage Ken went to Fort Eustis, VA as an obligated volunteer for 2 years after college His first duty was to go to Korea (06:50) Deployment • • • • • • • • • • Ken was sent to Camp Casey, Korea with the 7th infantry 17th transportation battalion and was assigned to the C Company, an armored carrier company He got on a 707 jet and flew from San Francisco to Hawaii, Wake Island, Japan, and then landed in Korea Korea smelt bad because of the open sewers and there were bullet holes in buildings Ken moved to Camp Casey and his duties were to do special assignment jobs and be the platoon leader They were some of the first troops to get the M-113 armored personnel carrier Their job was to support the battle groups Ken was there in from 1961 through 1962 The 1st Cavalry and the 7th Infantry divisions were still in Korea He was extended for 90 more days because of the assassination of JFK Ken was the company commander of C company (16:35) After Korea • • • • • • Ken went to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri He was put in charge of the motor pool as lieutenant Ken was then sent to Fort Carson, CO He was part of the 4th Squadron, 12th Cavalry Regiment in the 5th Mechanized Division Ken made senior first lieutenant They set up loading plans at Fort Carson from 1962 until 1964 �(18:40) Germany • • • • • • • Ken made captain and was sent to Mannheim, Germany with the 28th transportation battalion of the 37th transportation group He commanded a heavy truck company that carried tanks They moved tanks from the Nancy depot in France to the Mainz depot in Germany when Charles De Gaulle kicked the US out of France The GIs put French wine and bread in the tanks’ gun barrels so they could smuggle them through the border check The Germans didn’t want much truck traffic on the Autobahn so they had to get special permission to drive on it Ken was in charge of the company for a year In the fall of 1965 they pulled out of Germany (22:30) Training for Vietnam Ken was sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky He activated the 592nd transportation company They were at Fort Campbell from June 19, 1966 until March of 1967 Ken received new troops from South Carolina and found out that most of them were from New York City and didn’t know how to drive • They flew to Oakland, CA and boarded a ship to Vietnam • • • • (25:40) Vietnam • • • • • • • • • • • • • After 17 days at sea they landed at Okinawa, Japan There were 10 truck companies; Ken’s company had 188 men They went to Vung Tau and then to Cam Ranh Bay Cam Ranh was a very deep port Ken got on a LCU and went to shore He had 30 days to get the camp ready for the trucks that were coming in They built floors for the tents and sand bagged around the whole area for wind protection When they went out in a convoy they would occasionally get shot at by snipers Their camp was near a Vietnamese village and some of the village people worked in their camp There were a lot of geckoes around and some of the soldiers would feed them On one convoy they went almost all the way to Cambodia Most of the time they stayed on the beach Cam Ranh Bay was secured so they didn’t have any resistance at their camp �• • They never had to put armor plating on their trucks There wasn’t any support for the convoy (47:12) Back to the US • • • • • Ken went to Fort Riley, KS; the 9th and 1st divisions had gone to Vietnam He went to work with the 23rd forward air support command Ken made battalion commander and then major They had to get the camp ready for the ROTC summer camp Then he was sent to Fort Eustis, VA for an advanced course (48:50) Saigon • Ken was sent to Saigon in 1969 and 1970 • He was assigned to be a vessel movements officer and went to work for the first lieutenant • In Long Binh, a city east of Saigon, he had to move the 48th transport truck division to the 4th command • Ken became the highway operations commander • He was playing volleyball and injured his knee, so he had to go to Japan for surgery • Ken was at Camp Drake, Japan for 10 days after his surgery • He got sent to Valley Forge, PA for rehabilitation • His tour wasn’t completed in Vietnam and he wanted to go back to finish it • Ken went back to his unit and finished his tour • They sent him to Fort Eustis to work with a new heavy truck • He went to Japan with his family for 3 years and got to visit Hong Kong and Korea (58:24) Teaching • • • • • • • • • • Ken moved to Leavenworth, KS He then became a staff officer in Hawaii While in Hawaii he received his masters degree from Central Michigan University In 1980 he went to Western Illinois University to become their professor of Military Science His son went through the ROTC program and then went into the Army for 5 years Ken’s son and daughter both graduated from WIU He moved a total of 26 times while he was in the Military Ken got a job at Fort Sheridan, IL He put in for retirement and bought a house in Grand Rapids, MI Ken taught at Union and Creston for 8 years in Grand Rapids �• • • • • He spent 14 years in the ROTC program In 1999 he retired Ken is now a member of the VFW, the American Legion, the Vietnam Veterans Association, and the Army Navy Club of Grand Rapids Ken thinks the Army has changed a lot recently mostly because of technology In 1967 he was told by the head of graduate programs at Central Michigan University that he was not welcome on campus because he was in the Vietnam War �BIOGRAPHY KENNETH G. SCOTT LIEUTENANT COLONEL, UNITED STATES ARMY, RETIRED Born in Michigan in 1937, Colonel Scott graduated from Sheridan Rural Agricultural High School in 1955. He attended Central Michigan University where he enrolled in the Senior ROTC Program. He graduated in 1960 with a B.S. Degree and was commissioned a Second Lieutenant. Colonel Scott earned a M.A. Degree in Management from Central Michigan University in 1978. He attended the Transportation Officer Basic (1961) , Advanced (1969), courses and the United States Army Command and General Staff (1977). He has served stateside at Fort Eustis, Virginia, Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri; Fort Carson , Colorado; Fort Riley, Kansas; Fort Leavenworth, Kansas; Fort Campbell, Kentucky; and Fort Sheridan, Illinois. His overseas assignments include tours in Korea, Germany, Vietnam (2), Japan and Hawaii. Command assignments were in Korea as a Company commander of an Armored Carrier Company with the 7th Infantry Division, company Commander of a Heavy Truck Company in Germany, Company Commander of a Light Truck Company in Vietnam, and Battalion commander of a Transportation Battalion at Fort Riley, Kansas. Major Staff Assignments were S-3 Truck Transportation Battalion in Germany and Vietnam ; Highway Operations Officer Transportation Group in Vietnam; Project Officer Combat Development command; Staff Transportation Officer G-4 US Army Japan; Chief Transportation, Energy and Troop Support Division DCSLOG ,WESTCOM Hawaii; Director Industrial Operations, Fort Sheridan, Illinois. In 1980, he became the Professor of Military Science at Northern Illinois University. Colonel Scott retired from the United States Army in October 1985, from Fort Sheridan, Illinois, where he was the Director of Logistics . He joined the Grand Rapids Public Schools Junior ROTC Department as an instructor in 1985. He assumed the position of Facilitator of Army Instruction in August 1991. He retired from the Grand Rapids Public Schools on 31 July 1999. Decorations awarded to Colonel Scott include the Bronze Star Medal (1 OLC), Meritorious Service Medal (1 OLC), Army commendation Medal (2 OLC), Meritorious Unit Commendation (1 OLC), National Defense Service Medal, Republic of Korea Presidential Unit citation , Vietnam Service Medal, Vietnam Campaign Medal with 60 Device, Vietnam Cross of Gallantry with Palm, Army Service Ribbon , and Overseas service Ribbon with numeral 3 , Korea Defense Service Medal. He also was awarded the Outstanding Civilian Service Medal for his JROTC Service. Colonel Scott was inducted into the Central Michigan �University ROTC Hall of Fame in February 2000. Colonel Scott is a life member of The Military Officers Association of America , The Veterans of Foreign Wars , The American Legion And the Vietnam Veterans of America. He is also a member of the Army and Navy Club of Grand Rapids and Kiwanis Club of Grand Rapids North . Colonel Scott is married to the former Carol F. Jenks of Sheridan, Michigan . They have a son , Mark O. Scott who has q·children . He is an Emergency Room Doctor in Kansas City , Mo. They also have a daughter, Laura M. Hamacher, who is married to an attorney , has two children. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ScottK Title A name given to the resource Scott, Ken (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scott, Ken Description An account of the resource Ken Scott was born in Alma, Michigan in 1937. Ken graduated from Central Michigan University in 1960 and then went into the Army. His first duty was in Korea with the 7th infantry 17th transportation battalion as their platoon leader. In 1962 he came back to the US and then was sent to Germany from 1962 to 1964 where he commanded a heavy truck company. After Germany he activated a transportation company and went with them to Vietnam in March of 1967. He did one tour in Vietnam and then after being home for a short while did another. Ken then went to work as a professor of Military science working in Illinois and then Grand Rapids, Michigan until he retired in 1999. Personal account of military service is appended to interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/780e2eccb459665c5012571b0fffbcd0.pdf db330fcb9571579af6385f26ce8ab86d PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lectura in Johannem Duns Scotum super libro primo Sententiarum Petri Lombardi [folium 161] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_161Scriptor1498 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Scriptoris, Paulus, Approximately 1460-1550 Description An account of the resource One leaf from Lectura in Johannem Duns Scotum super libro primo Sententiarum Petri Lombardi by Paulus Scriptor. Printed in Tübingen by Johann Otmar on March 24, 1498. [GW M30260; ISTC ip00206000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Tübingen: Johann Otmar Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1498 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cfe0a675fb59828ccabe188f8581fb7a.m4v 05df1c9f6f83a66dba3c228ca844ecb1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da4f9671dac447a7bbc02cfe3e02b6df.pdf ce30d8d32341fd478dfea85f3f9f424c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project David Sebuck Kosovo War & Iraq War 52 minutes 51 seconds (00:00:05) Key Details -Born in May 1969 -Fought in the Kosovo War and the Iraq War -Served in the Marine Corps and reached the rank of lieutenant colonel (00:00:28) Enlisting in the Marines -Wanted to become a commercial airline pilot -One way would be to go into the military -Marines offered him the chance to get into Flight School (00:01:12) Training Pt. 1 -Went through Officer Candidate School while in college -After graduating he entered active duty with the Marines (00:01:20) Family Military Service -Father tried to serve in the Vietnam War, but was deemed unfit for service -His uncles served in World War II (00:01:38) Training Pt. 2 -Did six months of Officer Candidate School -Had to do four years of training before getting a deployment with the Fleet -Started out at Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida -Trained with the Beechcraft T-34 Mentor (prop-driven, single engined, military trainer) -Qualified to fly jets -Sent to Naval Air Station Meridian, Mississippi for Intermediate Training -Got selected to fly F/A-18 Hornet -Trained with them (00:02:36) Joining the Fleet -After four and a half years he got a Fleet assignment -Worked on being a Basic Wingman -Following the Flight Lead and learning how to become a Flight Lead -Flight Lead led missions (00:03:45) Adjusting to the Marines -Adjusted to taking orders and having a lack of choice in his deployments -Difficult moving his family around when he got a new assignment -Given only a matter of weeks to prepare for a deployment -Hard on him and his family (00:04:58) WESTPAC Deployment -Went on a WESTPAC (Western Pacific) Deployment -Assigned to Marine Aircraft Group 31 (MAG-31) -Operated out of Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort, South Carolina -Trained in Japan for six months and maintaining a presence in Southeast Asia (00:05:48) Kosovo War Pt. 1 -Joined the squadron and three months later was deployed to Aviano Air Base, Italy -Flew missions over Serbia -Maintaining peace in the region �-Knew that deployment was coming (00:06:20) Deployments Pt. 1 -The Iraq deployments came quick -Within two weeks he had to be ready to be deployed -On another deployment he was told on a Friday that he was being deployed -Only given ten days to get ready -The following Monday the Marines changed their mind -Emotional roller coaster -Deployments were hard on his younger children (00:07:54) Seeing the World -Got to see more of the worlds through the Marines -Saw Japan, Thailand, and South Korea as part of WESTPAC -Exposure to different cultures -Made him appreciate going home -Got to see the country and culture of Italy during the Kosovo War -Saw police with rifles at train stations -Bottled water was more prevalent than running water (00:09:38) Training Pt. 3 -As an F/A-18 pilot he had to train all the time -Evaluated after each training exercise -Went to Arizona to do tactical exercises and drop live munitions -Participated in Exercise Red Flag -Advanced aerial exercise out of Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada -Focused on preparing for specific missions -There was no air-air threats in Serbia and focused more on ground-air threats (Serbia and Iraq) -Learning how to fly with instruments and night vision goggles for night missions -Started off with the T-34 to learn how to fly -Flew the North American T-2 Buckeye -Intermediate training aircraft -Jet -Moved onto training with the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk -Single seat, subsonic carrier-capable attack aircraft -After training with the T-34, T-2, and the A-4 he finally began training with the F/A-18 Hornet -Most complex aircraft he had ever flown -Capable of air-air and air-ground missions (the 'A' F/A means attack) -Dual role aircraft -Could hit targets and defend itself -Has great capabilities as well as limitations (00:14:25) Kosovo War Pt. 2 -First combat mission was flown out of Taszar Air Base, Hungary in May 1999 -It was a night mission with four other Marine jets attacking Serbian targets -Took antiaircraft fire from Serbian forces -Flew at 20,000 feet and antiaircraft fire loses its potency at 10,000 feet -Serbs used SA-2 and SA-6 surface to air missiles -Remembers one getting close to his jet -Grew more confident and calm with each combat mission -First combat mission lasted 42 minutes -He held the rank of captain during the Kosovo War �(00:17:03) Service Between Wars -Promoted to the rank of major and served as a Flight Instructor in Pensacola, Florida -Rejoined the Fleet as an Assistant Maintenance Officer -Did six months of refresher training in the F/A-18 (00:17:35) Iraq War Pt. 1 -Deployed to Iraq and served on the ground as an air officer -Directed air support with seven other Marine officers -Coordinated with forward observers in the field -Started deployment at division headquarters -Reassigned to Regimental Combat Team 1 -Right after Blackwater USA contractors were attacked, killed, and burned on March 31, 2004 -Happened in Fallujah -Regimental Combat Team 1 needed help during the First Battle of Fallujah -Coordinated air support at night during the battle (00:19:27) Combat Missions Pt. 1 -Flew over 100 combat missions during his time in the Marines -Awarded a patch after his 100th mission and received nine air medals during his career -Eventually stopped thinking about combat missions -Probably flew around 150 combat missions during his career (00:20:04) Iraq War Pt. 2 -Another duty in Iraq was with the Operations Department -Made sure jets were flight ready, so the Marines could fly their missions -Worked with good, serious, and dedicated Marines -Controlled aircraft from a command post during the First Battle of Fallujah -Wanted to be in the city with the Marines, but had to his duty at the base -Insurgents attacked the base with rockets on a regular basis -Just did his job -Adjusted to getting attacked every day -Became a regular part of life -Decided he would either be fine, or he wouldn't -The attacks came at random, and thus death became random -As a pilot in Iraq he felt safe -Flew at 10,000 feet above the battlefield -Respected the helicopter pilots -They took a lot of fire and were the workhorse of the Marines -Remembers a Cobra gunship crashing inside the base during the First Battle of Fallujah -Fortunately, the pilot survived the crash -Had been friends with the pilot since David enlisted in the Marines (00:25:06) Friendships in the Marines Pt. 1 -Had friends in the Marines since he enlisted in the Marines -Made lifelong friends in the Marines -Bonded during their service -Maintains contact with many of the Marines he served with -Children are graduating together (00:26:20) Contact with Family & Downtime -During the WESTPAC deployment computers and email were relatively new -Mostly relied on telephones and used phone cards to call home -Some Marines had laptops that were incredibly costly at the time -Usually only had ten minutes of phone time �-During his first deployment in Iraq he read a lot -Younger Marines had portable DVD players -Had internet centers for the Marines in Iraq -Able to email family and do a primitive version of video chatting (like Skype) -Mail was still a common, and popular way for Marines to communicate in Iraq -His children sent him hand-drawn pictures -Got care packages from his family -Email was the most popular way of communicating with family -Getting actual mail provided more of a morale boost though -During WESTPAC he and his friends spent nights together -A lot of Marines took classes -Went sightseeing in the Asian countries -On his first Iraq deployment he didn't have a lot of downtime -Long days -Worked 16 to 18 hours -Worked and slept -During his second Iraq deployment he had shorter work days -Less Insurgent activity and hitting specific targets rather than full scale air campaigns -Worked 12 to 14 hours each day -Studied tactics -Did a lot of reading on his second deployment -Had no cable television in Iraq -Family sent seasons of TV shows to the Marines so they could catch up -Officers taught a variety of classes to the younger Marines -One officer taught a guitar course (00:31:34) Combat Missions Pt. 2 -Nothing that happened on combat missions ever surprised him -Always knew what to expect during a mission thanks to good intelligence (00:32:08) Different Cultures -Learned about different cultures on his deployments -Different priorities depending on different cultures -Even “western” countries differed from the United States in significant ways -Remembers talking to some Iraqis -Just wanted to be left alone and live their lives in peace -During the Kosovo War he and the other officers tried to study the conflict -Learned that it was caused by centuries of religious and ethnic tension -Strange to an American (00:34:03) Combat Missions Pt. 3 -Most memorable operations were combat missions -Saw the results of his missions -Made him appreciate life more -Wishes more Americans appreciated life or would take take action things they don't like (00:36:00) Deployments Pt. 2 -Spent three and a half years overseas during a 22 year career in the Marines -Did shorter deployments inside the United States -Training missions out west -First Iraq deployment lasted seven months, and second deployment lasted 12 months -Longer deployments were harder on his family -On the Iraq deployments he left in the fall and returned in the spring �-Missed Thanksgiving, Christmas, and birthdays -Fortunately, he got back for the births of his children (00:38:36) Life after Service -Teaches aviation now -Had enjoyed being a Flight Instructor in the Marines -Good feeling seeing Marines understand what he taught them -Had planned on retiring from the Marines, then the September 11th Attacks happened -Airlines weren't hiring and he decided to stay in the Marines -Got a master's degree in education before retiring from the Marines -Got a job at the West Michigan Aviation Academy as an instructor -Hard to adapt to being a civilian -Not as regimented -Fewer expectations and a looser schedule -Sets high expectations as a teacher and the students meet those expectations (00:43:10) Friendships in the Marines Pt. 2 -Maintains contact with his friends from the Marines -Some of them got jobs with airlines and offered him jobs as a commercial pilot -He declined, because he doesn't want to be away from his family for long times -One friend lives close to him (00:44:29) Veterans' Organizations -Not currently part of any veterans' organizations -Too busy with life at the moment -Interested in joining one, and might do it when he's older -Part of the Marine Officers Association (00:45:24) Reflections on Service -Taught him that you can do whatever you want if you set your mind to it -Taught him focus and discipline -Learned about teamwork, organization skills, and leadership skills -Marines taught him self-improvement and how to make himself a valuable part of an organization -Make plans and set goals for yourself -Shaped him as a person -Marines were a valuable part of his life -Never wanted to let down the people that depended on him -Taught him to try, and even if you don't succeed at least you tried -People want instant gratification without putting in effort -Set short term and adaptable goals for yourself -If one opportunity is lost then look for another one -People are willing to help you if you look, and ask, for it -Wouldn't change any part of his career in the Marines -Made some lifelong friends and it was a defining part of his life � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SebuckD1836V Title A name given to the resource Sebuck, David J (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-17 Description An account of the resource David Sebuck was born in May 1969. He enlisted in the Marines during college (c. 1987) and completed Officer Candidate School while in college. After graduating from college he entered active duty with the Marines. He completed four and a half years of Flight Training at Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida and at Naval Air Station Meridian, Mississippi. He joined the Fleet as an F/A-18 Hornet pilot and went on a WESTPAC (Western Pacific) training deployment and flew combat missions during the Kosovo War (c. 1999). He also did training missions inside the United States. He did two deployments during the Iraq War, serving on the ground helping coordinate air support during the First Battle of Fallujah on his first deployment and flew combat missions on his second deployment. After 22 years in the Marines he retired (c. 2009). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sebuck, David J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nurenburg, Garrett (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9776c2ad66b962a9e30048940cd6a19.pdf 62169714d67f5ca04094e334174c918d PDF Text Text Grace Secontine COVID-19 Journaling Project Date: March 18-now Human touch. Our first form of communication. It connects us when we are happy, bolsters us in times of fear, excites us in times of passion ... and love, we need that touch from the ones we love almost as much as we need air to breath. I always understood the importance of touch during normal times, but now since the COVID-19 pandemic is happening, now I cannot understand the importance of touch... Until it got stolen from all of us…. Including me. The pandemic has changed my life in so many ways. For example, for my 22nd birthday, my original plan before the pandemic happened was, I was supposed to have the day off from work and go out to dinner with my friends, but instead, I celebrated my 22nd birthday in quarantine. Before my dad got sick on March 18th, he said, “I am going to someone’s house for a gathering.” I said, “ok, see you tomorrow.” On March 19th, he came home not feeling well and he went to urgent care and when he came home he said, “Gracie, I tested positive for COVID, but the doctor told me that I have mild symptoms.” I called my mom about it and she said, “Grace, I want you to quarantine at dad’s till he feels better. I love you very much and I will see you soon.” I was the only one who had to take care of my dad. I was also finishing my junior year of college as well. My mental state during quarantine was not too good. I had nightmares that my dad was at Beaumont Hospital on a ventilator and not breathing. Some nights I had breakdowns because I missed my mom so much. I spent 3 ½ months at my dads and my mental health took a toll by not seeing my friends but instead zooming them on a computer. I was scared that my friends were going to get sick and die. I had hallucinations during quarantine that one of my best friends was in the hospital and the nurse telling me that he is going to die the next day and I remember screaming and crying while I was in my room. How does it really feel preparing to go back to a college campus during a pandemic? It is unsafe and risky. The week before Grand Valley’s classes started, I decided to stay home and do online classes because I didn’t feel safe going back to a college campus. If I were on campus and got COVID, who would take care of me? Also, I would share a bathroom with my roommate, which I think is unsanitary because I do not want her germs to be in contact with mine. My parents and friends told me that I made the smart decision by not going on campus this semester. I plan to go �Grace Secontine COVID-19 Journaling Project Date: March 18-now on campus in January once hopefully COVID is under control. Young people especially college students are putting their own lives at risk by being around people that are from different states across the U.S. and who knows if they were in any type of large gathering over the summer and exposed to someone who was sick with COVID. This school year is different because of fall sports being cancelled due to COVID-19 and not a single fraternity party on a weekend. I was unemployed during the pandemic until June 9th. When I went back to work in June, I thought to myself, “I am putting my own health at risk by being around customers.” I was also nervous to wear a face mask because I did not know what people would say to me. My friend Michael McInerney told me that I am brave that I went back to work and he said, “I wish I could hug you, but I can’t.” I said, “I know.” It almost brought tears to my eyes that I could not even hug my friend. When my friend Jack Reinhart came in, he recognized me, and he could tell that I was smiling beneath my face mask. I said to him, “I didn’t want any guy from Seaholm to see me. You know, me wearing a face mask, I think it’s not cute.” I told him that I did not want them to ask me why I must wear one. He said, “I think it's cute!” Throughout the whole summer, I bonded with a lot of my co-workers including Amelia, Ellen, TC, Bre, Chase, Selena, Jalen, Sophie, and Trent. They know what I have been going through lately, and they understand. Whenever I am feeling down, Trent, TC, and Chase always make me laugh (a lot) until my face is beat red. Trent and I got really close until he had to transfer to another location, and we are still close. They made my summer memorable despite COVID. One day after work, I hung out with my friend Jack Reinhart. We both wore masks when we walked around Downtown Birmingham. After we ate dinner, we went back to his house and we talked. He told me something funny that happened at his internship office today and I started smiling. He said, “there’s that smile. God your beautiful and brave. I wish I could touch you.” I said, “like giving me a hug?” He said, “yes.” I told him that everyone lost that human touch like hugging their friends. My co-workers and I hung out on weekends and sometimes one weekday after work, we went out to get food, despite being six feet apart and not hugging them. I have been separating myself from large crowds of people so I can live. And I want to live. I wake up every morning thinking to myself, “how am I surviving this pandemic?” After all COVID-19 has stolen from us, I do not mind taking something back. 1 foot. (I am talking about the 6 feet �Grace Secontine COVID-19 Journaling Project Date: March 18-now apart rule). The one thing I learned from this pandemic is get close to the people you love and the people you work with. The COVID-19 pandemic has likely brought many changes to how you live your life, and with it uncertainty, altered daily routines, financial pressures and social isolation. You may worry about getting sick, how long the pandemic will last, whether you'll lose your job, and what the future will bring. Information overload, rumors and misinformation can make your life feel out of control and make it unclear what to do. During the COVID-19 pandemic, you may experience stress, anxiety, fear, sadness and loneliness. And mental health disorders, including anxiety and depression, can worsen. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-10-27_SecontineGrace Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Secontine, Grace Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-10-27 Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journaling Project Description An account of the resource Journal of GVSU student Grace Secontine's experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic. Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59a7ce8c5b9fb12e59062caaa9e81de0.mp4 e7dc78261994939ff73232b9e3cd1922 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46446413df1352a1e74cd86bbe6684f1.pdf 2306a2e5478678b186623fe5331710f7 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW BETH SEFTON Born: May 30, 1921 in Sioux City, Iowa Resides: Interviewed by: Frank , Michigan Military Museum Transcribed by: Claire Herhold, January 29, 2013 Interviewer: Beth, let’s begin with the most basic of things. Where and when were you born? 1:02:25 I was born in Sioux City, Iowa, May 30th, 1921, so I’m now eighty two years old. Interviewer: What was your home town like? What was Sioux City like during that time? Sioux City was a typical Midwestern, all-white, town and so my family was a little bit of an oddity because my father was Chinese and my mother was English and German and therefore we were like a black would be to the South in those years. 1:03:22 Except that I think it was more noticeable because of the fact that we were conscious of it. Interviewer: Where did you go to school? First off, not high school or anything, but where did you first go to school? I first went to school at Irving School. It was just about five blocks from my house and it was a typical public school. My teachers were wonderful and I had lots of friends. 1:04:00 Interviewer: So you didn’t experience any real problems with the fact that your father was Chinese at this point? No, I think a lot of the prejudice was in family stuff, at least until I got into high school. Interviewer: Well, tell us about what was your high school experience like? Well, the only problems I had with prejudice there was the fact that some of the mothers were not happy with the fact that their sons liked me. In fact, one mother kept her son out of school a half a year so that he would not graduate with us. �Interviewer: Did you actually personally feel any kind of animosity or did you actually feel like there was some reason why you were different than the other kids? 1:05:01 No, not with the rest of the population. In fact, I think we were, both my brother and I were very intelligent, smart kids and so if anything we got preferential treatment. Interviewer: Did your parents ever sit you down at any time that you can remember and say that, you know, people out there might treat you differently? Oh, I think my mother was the cause of that. Interviewer: Because, you know, it’s very strange to say this but I’m half Russian and when I first came to America as a child, and of course the Cold War was going on, my mother sat me down and made sure to say, you know, don’t ever tell anybody you’re Russian because there might be problems, you know, so I kind of relate to what you’re saying. In high school then…you graduated from high school. Did you have any idea of what you wanted to do after high school? 1:06:00 Well, this was the middle of the Depression and our money was limited so it was, and the careers for women were limited also, so it was either a matter of college or nursing, and nursing was much more reasonable and much more accessible so I chose nursing. Interviewer: You know, I think a lot of people today wouldn’t quite understand because they don’t understand really what a depression is and in a depression your options are so limited in terms of what you can do. Did nursing cost anything or did you get a scholarship? How did you actually get the chance to become a nurse? 1:07:00 Well, my, let’s see, it was my brother’s wife had a baby in St. Vincent’s Hospital and I was impressed with the hospital itself and I know my brother had said to me, “Babe, you better decide what you want to do.” And so, I looked at the difference, and as far as cost it was very �reasonable because it was a school of nursing. They did not have colleges at the time that taught nursing, and so I had to pay, oh I think it was like a hundred dollars for uniforms and things like that, but most of it was that we worked for our, like what would be tuition, was what we worked. 1:08:21 We worked in the hospital from the time that we were “probies.” We first went in two hours and then four hours and so that we actually formed the staff of the hospital, and because in St. Vincent’s there were no interns we really had an excellent education and we still managed to get all of the subjects in that were taught by doctors and by nurses and by the Briar Cliff College also. 1:09:01 But it was a do-it-yourself more than now if you want to be a nurse, you have to go to college. Interviewer: Two things: what’s a “probie?” A “probie” is a probationer. Just a short name for a probationer when you start out. Interviewer: Now you had mentioned there was a college involved. Were you actually taking classes at any time during the day? Oh yes, we took classes in the day and in the evenings so beside our work we also had two to four hours of classes along with it. Interviewer: Are we picking up that sound? There’s a blower going on? Okay, good. 1:10:00 So what was this experience? Did you enjoy this experience? What was this experience like of working as a “probie,” if you will? Oh, you were not a “probie” long. It was about like a there month period, you see. But I loved nursing. I loved it from the very start, and I loved the people. I loved the work. I loved everything about it. Interviewer: What kind of nursing were you doing at this time? �Oh, the kind of nursing that we did was the entire range of things. We did the wards and private patients, but every kind of disease that they deal with in the hospitals is what we did. 1:11:03 We had gallbladders and appendixes and fractures, all those injuries plus a lot of people that had age diseases. I can remember we had a ward of old men there that had some of the old diseases that you don’t even see anymore with these ascites and the big abdomens and things that don’t happen as much now. Interviewer: I have a notice here, “Beatrice, loving watchful eye?” What is that? Oh, Sister Beatrice. I was, St. Vincent’s was ran by the nuns, and Sister Beatrice was the, actually my first paying job outside of the hospital. 1:12:04 We were in training for three years and they were, the nuns were very meticulous and they watched you, all of the nuns did, but Sister Beatrice was my first operating room supervisor outside of the hospital. Interviewer: In December of 1941, American was shocked at the attack on Pearl Harbor. Do you remember that day? Oh, I remember the attack on Pearl Harbor because I was doing my public health nursing. You went through the entire phases. 1:13:03 Psychiatric nursing, public health nursing, surgeries, obstetrics, everything. But I was on one of my last rotations and this was public health and I was in the car with the public health nurse and we heard it on the radio. And we were really shocked and it’s something just like the death of President Kennedy that you will never forget when we realized when we’d been attacked. Interviewer: What was your immediate reaction to that? What I’m trying to get at, is that you’re a nurse, we’re now at war. Was there any reaction in terms of …some of the pilots that I’ve talked to in the past always said, “I’m going to join up, I’m going to go, and go fight.” 1:14:05 What was your reaction? �My reaction to whether I should join the service was, I couldn’t at the moment because I wasn’t out of training. My brother was already in the war. He had joined up ahead because that also was an out when we were in this depression and you couldn’t get jobs anywhere and so he joined the service. And so he was up in Camp Grant, Illinois and of course he said, “Don’t join.” And I wasn’t really qualified yet because I didn’t graduate until 1942, which was, May of 1942. 1:15:07 And then I felt that I needed to have a little outside experience outside of that hospital before I ever would think of that. However, the real crux of the matter is that the longer we were in the war, the more you felt the pressure of having to, wanting to join, wanting to be a part of it, and the need to be. We were tremendously busy at the hospital where I worked. We were on call every other day and we just were very, very busy and so they kept saying, “Join.” And so everyone that was a young nurse at our hospital was already thinking of joining. 1:16:04 Two of the girls that I worked with became Navy nurses and another one an Army nurse. So we were all on limited time in our jobs it seemed like, and it was like, they pointed a finger at you, “We want you,” like that poster. And you really felt that you were obligated to, you wanted to really be part of it. I think that World War II was probably the most patriotic of all wars and certainly the most fervent, complete, the whole country was behind it so that you just felt that you had to be part of it. Interviewer: So in March of 1943, you were talking about like the radios and news venues were clamoring, but at this point they were clamoring for nurses, or at least that came to your attention, is that right? 1:17:10 I felt like the radio announcements and the, all of the news media was clamoring for nurses, and of course, like everything, like even now, they’re always clamoring for nurses to join or so. But it was also an altruistic feeling of wanting to, not necessarily having to, but wanting to. �Interviewer: What did you do in reaction to that? Well, in reaction to the feelings that I had and how the country was going, I…of course, I had to consider my mother who didn’t want me to join, of course. 1:18:16 There were only the two of us. But I really felt it was necessary, and so I, I was already a Red Cross nurse because as we graduated from nursing school we joined the Red Cross. And all of the nurses of that era went to the army through the Red Cross. We were not considered Army nurses as much as we were Red Cross Nurses. And so you had to have that backing before you were allowed to join the Army. 1:19:05 Actually, we did not become part of the regular Army until a while after that I was in it, and I didn’t even realize that. I thought I was an Army nurse right from the beginning. But then about, oh I forget how many months in, they had us sign something that made us really Army nurses and not just Red Cross nurses. Interviewer: For those people who do not have any background in this, why couldn’t, I mean, American males could join the Navy or join the Army or join the Marines. Did you have an option? No, there was no option to join the services that way. In fact, it was considered separate. The nurses were not considered a part of the Army at first. 1:20:00 Thank God I didn’t know that at the time because I don’t think any of us realized that we were not an integral part of the Army itself until afterwards. And then of course when the WACs and the WAVES, Women’s Auxiliary Corps and all of this, came in afterwards we were a little resentful because they got in so much easier than we did with so much less training. Interviewer: So you join up in the Army Nurse Corps. Where were you stationed and what was your experience? What did you learn there? �When I joined the service my first station was Schick General Hospital in Clinton, Iowa and it was a big general hospital. 1:21:03 It had the famous neurosurgeons and it was, I found out later that it had not been established as long as I thought it had, but it was an entire campus of…and there were training units, medical units, on the hill. All of them training to go overseas, but this general hospital did all types of surgery, and of course I was an operating room nurse and I was in on all of these new ideas and all the new metals that they were using, titanium and all of this stuff that was brand new. 1:22:01 Now you must remember that at this time there was just the beginning of penicillin and sulfa was just first being used. There were so many new innovations that were just beginning at this time. Interviewer: Now let me understand this. You’re now at Schick General Hospital. You’re training in these neurosurgical techniques, but you’re in the military. Don’t you have to go through basic training or anything like that? Oh, we had basic training at Schick General Hospital. In fact, one of the…we had marches, we had calisthenics. We also had gas masks where we had to go through a tent and learn how to put the gas mask on. 1:23:00 And we had, I don’t know what they had in it, but they did have some sort of gas that was very strong and we really had a tremendous basic training. Interviewer: Well, give us an idea of what a typical day would be like. I mean, we’ve interviewed your husband, we’ve interviewed other vets. You know, they’d get up in the morning, they’d have to do this. But you’re a nurse, so what was sort of a typical day like during this very first part of your training? It’s hard to remember exactly… Interviewer: That’s all right. �…what a typical day was but I don’t remember whether we did it in different days that they took you out to do that or whether it was part of a daily thing. But what we did is, I know that we had surgeries all day long and we an eight hour duty period. 1:24:09 But there must have been time out when we would have these marches and all of the training scheduled but I just don’t recall exactly how it was. Interviewer: That’s okay. In November of ’43 you made a big decision that literally affected the rest of your life. Instead of staying in the safety of Schick, I understand you volunteered. I volunteered to go overseas in November of ’43. This was very tempting to want to stay in this absolutely wonderful surgery place, but I also felt that what I joined the Army for was to help the soldiers that were going to be in this fight and so of course there I had to be overseas and not in the safety of the big general hospital here. 1:25:28 Interviewer: Now your mom was not happy when you joined the army to begin with, but she must have really wondered about this. What was your mom’s reaction to your wanting to go overseas? I think she felt, after I joined the Army, it was completely out of her hands. My mother was always concerned with the fact that we were in harm’s way. 1:26:00 But she knew that, she knew that I was going to make my own decisions. Interviewer: So once you volunteered for overseas duty, what happened next? Well, after I volunteered for overseas duty I was sent on a train to Camp Rucker, Alabama. We were in long wooden barracks. There were thirteen, about thirty people to a barracks, all in one room. And there were like two toilets at the end of the room where you could face each other �almost. So there was much less privacy and you learned more and more to be buddies with everybody. 1:27:05 [Long pause as phone rings and crew members shuffle] I’ve forgotten what we were talking about. Interviewer: Yeah, me too. I was going to Camp Rucker. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. So you’re at Camp Rucker now. I had a question though. This is in Alabama. Oh yes, Camp Rucker, Alabama. Interviewer: Was there any… we had heard earlier on to your being half Chinese…did you experience any problem there about this or was this not even an issue? 1:28:02 There was no issue at all with my ancestry after I got in the Army. However, Camp Rucker, Alabama was in the deep South and so I was shocked to find out how much there was still the separation of the two, the blacks and the whites, in the South. I can remember feeling outraged that the blacks would step off the pavement so the whites could walk by and there was still that black back of the bus where…and being from the North, I was really outraged at the acceptance and the difference it was in the South. 1:29:04 However, it all seemed to be done quite amiably between both races, and there was not the animosity that it would have engendered up North, but it was very apparent. We went through Montgomery, Alabama where they still had the flags of the South up and you would have thought Jefferson [Davis] won the war. Interviewer: Now, once you went through your training there at Camp Rucker, what was your next assignment? �Actually at Camp Rucker we didn’t have any training. What we did was we gathered our equipment and our… 1:30:04 I can remember that we had our barracks bags laid out and our bedrolls and all our canteens and we were supplied with everything that we needed. And we also met the unit that we were going to go overseas with. That was the 313th Station Hospital. We did meet the officers there and learn a little more about the bonding together of a unit at this time. Interviewer: You just mentioned officers. Did you have a rank at this time? Oh I was brought into the Army as a second lieutenant and there I stayed for a long, long time because of the fact that when we did get overseas our promotions were frozen. 1:31:14 But I think most all of the nurses that came into the service came in as second lieutenants and probably the older ones, the ones that were in charge of you were made captain and the ones that were…or first lieutenants. Those were the ones that did the paperwork and kept the nurses in line. Interviewer: From there where did you move on to, because now you’re about to… where did you go overseas and how did you get there? 1:32:00 We were sent from Camp Rucker, Alabama to Camp Kilmer, New Jersey and from there we were sent overseas. We had our final inspections and our footlockers were banded and everything was stenciled and then we boarded the, quite a large ship, and it was called the Brazil it was. I was seasick, always seasick. I couldn’t believe that I could get seasick because I was always so healthy and so strong, but ships are not my forte. So I spent my whole ten days going overseas on the top deck because I found out that I was perfectly all right as long as I was out in that fresh air but perfectly terrible like a leaden head when I was down where I could hear the machinery and smell the oil that came from the ship. 1:33:15 Interviewer: So I take it this was not a luxury liner you went over on? �Well, I think all ships are terrible. I don’t think there’s any luxury liner that could ever get me to get on a ship that I did not have to be on. Interviewer: Thank goodness you finally arrive, and where did you arrive? We arrived, well, we went in convoy across the ...and they had a smoking lamp that they would put out when the skies got gray and dark. You could see the whole mass of ships that were in this convoy and we zig-zagged a little bit. 1:34:07 Of course, I thought all this was not really necessary but I guess it was at the time. I just didn’t realize the dangers, but we landed in Scotland and that was I think in December of 1943, somewhere along there. Interviewer: Okay, let’s hold off just for a moment here. You’re getting real close to touching your microphone so be careful of that. And can we check on …are you all right? Okay. Is everything okay? All right, good. So this is the first time you’ve arrived in a foreign country even though it’s an English speaking country. 1:35:03 What was your first reaction to…? In other words, you get there…Was this the first time you met Scottish people or British people? We arrived in Scotland I think in the middle of the night, so and we were in Class A uniforms which means that we had short skirts, fairly short for that time, and not much protection so we were freezing. We got on a train there. I met no Scottish people, and it was dark so we’d peer out the window to see what kind of, what we could see because of course we loved the idea of being in a foreign country and wanted to see and do and experience everything that there was to experience. 1:36:02 We got on this train and tried to sleep and went all the way down, all the way from the top of Scotland clear down to the bottom of England which was, we landed in North Devon is what we did. But this was a long, long trip. I can remember the one time that we did stop they had coffee with cream in it. I never drank coffee in my life before but it was �nice and hot, so that was my first experience drinking coffee. We stayed on this cold, cold train clear down to Devon and it was rainy in Devon too. 1:37:08 But England will always be my first love because I spent fifteen months there. It was a beautiful, beautiful country and lovely people. The wonderful thing that I think I learned about the English was their resilience, their ability to make do with little. They had large buses and they were very patient in queuing up for them. But the most, the thing that I treasure most was the fact that even the old people rode bicycles to save the gas. There was a lot of bicycle riding. 1:38:02 Interviewer: What were you doing during this fifteen months? I was at the 313th Station Hospital and we were in Barnstaple, North Devon, England. That’s just almost as far south as you can get, and it was beautiful country. But we set up our hospital unit there. We were quartered at first in a manor house in Fremington and we learned, of course, all the things about English living, that they had no central heating, and we had to learn to start our own fires. 1:39:01 Interviewer: I think people may not realize what a manor house is. This is a huge, almost castle-like structure with lots of rooms so they would be perfect for housing a whole group of people. Well, the manor only housed about the nurses first and then the officers afterwards. And it was a huge, lovely house. It had a ballroom, which we turned into our dining room, and it had tremendous…actually one of the things I remember most was the tub that they had there and it was a built-in and it was so deep that it was amazing. But it was a beautiful, beautiful place. 1:40:01 Polished wood. There might have even been a ghost there sometimes. But we had in the one large room where some of our nurses were they had put eight beds in this one room, eight cots, where we slept on cots. And then of course at that time the officers and the enlisted �persons were out in what they call Nissen huts, which were sort of prefabricated huts that were long and, I don’t know how they were made. Interviewer: Like a barracks maybe? Yeah, kind of like a barracks. And they had potbellied stoves in them. These were the ones that eventually the nurses got these and we had to keep our fuel going, and we only had so much fuel. 1:41:11 Interviewer: Well, you know, that leads to another question. The war is going on. Did you have any experience…I mean, I know they weren’t bombing you, but did you have any experience with perhaps the deprivations of the war or any experience that the war was going on? There were…we had many experiences about the deprivation that was going on in England because we were not allowed to have any milk or any eggs or any things that would be taking away from the British population. In fact, I learned to drink powdered milk because I loved milk and powdered eggs. Actually, the United States Army I think ate quite well. 1:42:08 And we all had bicycles too. We bought them so we could travel without using extra gas. And then of course, at that time we set up our operating room and our different wards and the hospital things that we did were for our own unit or, once in a while, we had the airplanes that flew over from the RAF and the Royal Canadian Air Force. 1:43:08 And they had an airfield that was directly across the river from where our unit was stationed, and I know that there were several times when they had crashes, were brought in to our surgery and we took care of them. Interviewer: So at this point you’re not treating war, direct war casualties. You’re dealing with accidents and the general kind of…I guess, who were treating and what were treating at this time, besides the RAF and the Canadians you’re talking about? �Well, we were treating mostly our own personnel and living in expectation of what was to come. 1:44:13 Rather than treating anybody we were set up and ready, but not really functioning as a war unit. Actually, it was before we had D-day and so…Although I didn’t realize, I figured I was in the war because I was over there, but I didn’t realize that our Americans were not yet in the war and I couldn’t understand why we were sort of stagnated and not doing what I thought I had been sent over for. 1:45:01 Interviewer: Did you have any opportunity to either go into London or any of those areas that the war could actually be viewed, could be seen? I did go many places while in England. London was one of them, that was one of the really scary times because they were having the buzz bombs that came over, these were the unmanned bombs that Hitler sent over and you could hear the noise from them and when the noise stopped then you had to look out because that’s when the bomb was going to drop. Interviewer: Why were you in London? I went up on a pass to see one of my nurse friends and I was so frightened when there was all these air raid sirens and it got so black out and I didn’t know where I was. 1:46:10 And we were going in the subway and when I got off and they said, some British person said, “Oh yes, this hospital is right in the next block.” So I went up to the hospital and I asked for the, not for the person that I was coming to see but somebody that had been back in my unit because I was really frightened. And my nurse friend who was based in London was so calm and so matter of fact and everybody was going into the subways to escape the bomb scare. But she stayed up there and we watched through the window and saw all these flares and it was lit up and you could see the fires and everything. 1:47:09 I know, afterwards, when I was trying to get back to, go back to my own station, I can remember there were all these hoses that were strung across and the �British people, not just the men but the women were all working industriously to put out the fires and it was a real revelation of how efficient these British were. I was impressed. 1:48:02 But I was glad I was not based in London. Interviewer: I can imagine it also was a real wake-up in terms of the devastation of war and the kind of enemy you were up against. You really realized how devastating it was, because there was also all the rubble and the buildings that were downed and the people that were injured. It brought war very, very close. Interviewer: So once you made it back to your base, where did you go from there? I think it was about June of forty…I can’t remember… 1:49:01 Interviewer: Don’t worry. That’s okay. But we were not functioning efficiently as a unit and so the nurses were sent out on temporary duty to other hospitals. So I was sent up to Exeter and Taunton to, I think it was the 101st General Hospital. And I always felt a little like if I was the outcast, you know, not really belonging because you learn to identify so completely with your own personnel and your unit and so to be sent to a strange place, it was hard to adapt to different areas. 1:50:01 But we were sent to this big general hospital and I can remember living in another, presumably, manor house or something in the attic. I can’t even remember what we did there. Interviewer: This isn’t where you were doing similar MASH-type of… No, this was earlier on. That was when we were in… Interviewer: Malvern? But when I was in this area where we were transferred then instead of being on temporary duty any more, we were assigned to another unit. This one was the 123rd Station Hospital. And this was when were sent up to Malvern, England. 1:51:03 That’s probably in the north of England, �and they had the fifty, I think it was the 55th or 53rd General Hospital there. And there is where is where I was in the surgeries where they did two surgeries. They had a, it was a standing, it was not tents. It was a standing unit. But they had actually two surgeries going on at the same time and I participated in that area. And it was almost like what you see on the MASH unit that Alan Alda portrays there. I did not like the original M*A*S*H because I thought it was not only exaggerated, that it was gross almost, but… 1:52:02 Interviewer: All right, so from there I understand you went to France. From Malvern we were sent over to Wales, and there we met a different set of officers and went from there to France. So we arrived in France, I think about in January or February of 19, what is it, 45, I think. Interviewer: Well this must have been exciting. Now you’re going from England, now you’re going to another foreign country. And France, of course, has a lot of mystique and romance about it. What was your reaction to arriving in France and where did you stay? I arrived in France, I think at Le Havre, and then we stayed at a monastery, I think it was, that had, I know it had the chapel and we stayed so that we could go to mass every morning if we wanted to. 1:53:20 Interviewer: So you were in the monastery? There was a chateau there as well? It was, I guess it was a chateau, but it had that chapel at the side. And we were all in a long wooden area or so with canvas cots and we managed to press our uniforms by putting them between the cot and our bed roll and so that’s how we pressed our clothes. And it was a place where we, I know we had our mess kits with the great big tubs that were out there and we wore fatigues all the time. 1:54:14 That was a blessing because there was mud everywhere. We got to �know the French people. In fact, I tried to learn a little bit of French. I never was very good at it though. Interviewer: So let’s say for example, you’re now going out to eat and of course you’ve got candlelight settings with plates and silverware… Huh? We did not have, although the mystique of France was there, we were not given the candlelight dinners and things. 1:55:01 What we did see was the long French bread that they had, but they didn’t even put it in wrappers. They carried it on the street just as is with no wrappers or anything. And the French family that I learned about was when I went on a temporary duty to Dieppe and they had an evacuation, a field hospital there. And this French sixteen year old boy came up and he said, “Oh don’t step off the sidewalk,” he says, “because there are bombs and mines on the side so you have to stay on the walks.” 1:56:07 So he offered to take me up to see a castle that was really just the ruins of a castle that was there, and then he invited me home to see his mother. Although she couldn’t speak English and I can’t speak French we managed to connect with sign language and smiles and whatever. I have kept him as a friend ever since and I still correspond with him, and his mother has since died but we did go back in 1978 and visited her. 1:57:00 She had the Caduceus emblem that I had sent her and she gave me a little pair of earrings that, I don’t wear earrings, but anyhow. It just was a beautiful friendship, and he was a diplomat in the European common market. In fact, when we went back to visit we ended up having to go through security to get to where he was. He’d also been a French paratrooper. Interviewer: So where did you go from there? Because we’re not in the Pacific yet, we’re still in Europe. �Oh yes, we went from that staging area which was where the chateau was, and from that area we went to Reims, which was where we were again on temporary duty to a large general hospital. 1:58:09 It was I believe the 178th General Hospital. There’s where I was on night duty where there were, I was in charge of five different wards at the same time and they were all miles apart or so I can remember travelling down those wooden staircases and going to each ward. There were many casualties, there. This was orthopedic wards that I was in there. Interviewer: So what were you actually doing? I mean, these are war casualties. Give us an idea of what you’re actually doing to treat these soldiers. 1:59:04 There was a doctor there, the surgeon was there? In all general hospitals there’s a doctor and there’s actually the regular set-up that you would see in one of our civilian hospitals with the doctors and the nurses and the many patients. But of course, instead of being just single rooms they were in large wards. And the patients were pretty wonderful because they still maintained most of their sense of humor and they were young so they had the resiliency and the hope of the future there. Interviewer: What nationality? Were these British, Canadians, Americans? These were Americans. 2:00:00 This was an American hospital, and this was, of course, after the Americans had gotten into the war because this is ’45, early ’45. Interviewer: So these were the casualties of the war around there and they would come to either field hospitals and then eventually be transferred to where you were? To the generals, yes. These were the soldiers that were not sufficiently injured to have to be sent back immediately to the states, but they convalesced either in these large general hospitals or so. Interviewer: Was there any indication of the actual war beyond the casualties? Were there any bombings or any kind of things going on like that while you were there? �I did not experience any of the front line bombings. 2:01:04 We were always back far enough so that I always felt quite safe. I don’t know how safe I was, but I felt safe. We had all of these, actually we had paratroopers and we had aviators both as patients and in the vicinity. We had gone from Reims to this little suburb, it was called Mourmelon and there was a whole group of hospital units there. They would transport us in to the 178th General in Reims. 2:02:03 Interviewer: So from Reims, where did you go from there? I understand there was a French cavalry officers’ barracks? That was at, the French cavalry barracks that we were situated in was a beautiful place. It was stone and had outside staircases. It might have not seemed beautiful but it was beautiful to us. We’d go up the spiral staircase into a large room that had little rooms off of it like spokes on a wheel. And this is where I met Bill, when I was stationed at this area and we were in between our own units staging. 2:03:08 The 123rd was staging to go to the Pacific and to Japan, so we were in between doing our own sewing and getting all of the equipment together for having a hospital unit that would function in Japan. In between doing that we were also doing duty at the 178th General, so we were scattered in what we had to do, so we did our own thing in between times and then they would have us over so we could do the actual patients. 2:04:04 Interviewer: There’s two parts to this. Number one is, were you actually informed formally that you were going overseas or did you volunteer to go overseas? Oh, when the war was over, V-E Day, Victory in Europe, they came around and they asked us whether we wanted to be sent back to the states or whether we would volunteer to go on to Japan. Well, my brother had been over in the South Pacific for all his years and I was anxious also to go so I volunteered to go on. 2:05:00 I figured, as long as…you see, as nurses we were in for the duration of the war. That meant until the end of the war, regardless. It’s not like today �where you can be in for a certain length of time and then you kind of have to re-up or so. But for us, we were in until it was all over and so either we went on or we stayed in Europe, and those that didn’t volunteer stayed in Europe. My best buddy did not volunteer to go on because her husband did not want her to, and so as it was she stayed in Europe and she took care of German prisoners of war and also some of the army personnel that was left there. 2:06:11 Interviewer: This is where it gets interesting, as this young, dashing paratrooper shows up in your life. How did that come about? I met Bill in quite an interesting way. I had a friend that had been like a big brother to me in the 506th parachute unit and he had been sent up to the front and I hadn’t heard from him for some time and he’d brought me back a camera and a Nazi flag and had just left them and gone on. I hadn’t seen him, so I was expecting to hear something of this paratrooper when I got called down to meet someone downstairs. 2:07:20 I was upstairs writing letters and I was being a very good girl because I had had two proposals and I couldn’t make up my mind who I really liked and so I was staying home and being really picky about not going out with anybody. And so I thought this must be from Joe Reed. And so I came down to the unit and there were three gallant paratroopers there, two that seemed a little older and then this one fairly young, harmless looking person. 2:08:01 And so we talked and I kept thinking, why isn’t he saying there’s a message from Joe Reed? And it didn’t come out. Finally, I discovered that the only reason they were here was because they were looking for dates for a dance that was that evening or the next evening, and so my two nurse friends were conferring whether they were going to go out. I said, “I’ll go out with them if I can have the harmless looking one.” So there’s how I met Bill. It turned out later that he had asked somebody earlier who’d just gotten married, she was quite an exotic looking beauty, and he’d asked if there was anyone that was like her. 2:09:09 I had �always been considered her little sister because I had the same complexion and looks more or less. I seen her too recently at our 501 reunion in Pennsylvania, and she still is a lovely, lovely woman. Interviewer: Once you met Bill, though, did you have a chance to spend time with him? Or were you shipped off to the Pacific? Give us an idea of what was going on during that period. I met Bill the day after the war ended in Europe. That was the ninth of May, and I was staging to go to the Pacific so I only saw him for nine days at Mourmelon before he left. 2:10:13 And I went from Mourmelon, which is near Reims, down to Marseilles, and there we were waiting for a ship to go to the Pacific. And incidentally we had a time where we spent on leave in the Riviera, not with Bill, with my girlfriend or so. So we got to experience a little of that luxury that you saw of France where we got really sunbaked in the Riviera. 2:11:06 Enough to, I can remember using the paddleboats that they had there, and we paddled out so far not thinking how dangerous it might have been, we went way out. And I’ve often thought later on in my life, I’ve wondered how I could ever have been so oblivious to the danger we were in, but anyhow that was my…And we saw Bob Hope while we were in the Marseilles area and the beautiful Notre Dame cathedral. Not the one that’s in Paris, but the one that’s down there, called Notre Dame de la Garde. 2:12:01 And learned a little bit about the French people there too. They had that, what is it, not the Guy Fawkes day, but the day for the French Revolution, I forget what it’s called. Mary Beth celebrates it all the time. Interviewer: So from there, you’re now being sent to the Pacific. Wasn’t there something to do with the Russian soldiers? Was this before or after? �Oh, while I was still in Mourmelon. I was sent to a ward, it was a neuro ward and it was kind of primitive, really. I know we had our sterile water made and heated on a fire and there was…we had Russian soldiers there and one of the taught me a few words of Russian or so. 2:13:07 That’s where we had POWs, prisoners of war, that were German and we also had some very sad cases on this neuro ward, and one of them was a Russian that I talked to again with sign language. Interviewer: So these were serious war injuries, then? This is legs and arms? This was head, head injuries too. Interviewer: All right, so now you receive, in France, I believe you get a promotion. Is that correct? I was finally promoted to first lieutenant. 2:14:02 Actually, it was on my birthday almost. I think it was the 30th of May or so, promoted to first lieutenant. They finally unfroze our promotions. Interviewer: Besides a pay raise, what did that actually incur? Did you have additional responsibilities or are you doing basically the same thing? Nothing. Same thing, it’s just like after you’ve worked so hard, they finally say, “Oh well, we’ll give you a little more title or so,” but it didn’t change what you were doing. Interviewer: Let’s talk now about going to the CBI, which is the China, Burma, Indian theater. We left France to go to the Pacific, the China, Burma, India theater in July of 1945, knowing full well that we were going to encounter the Japanese and really some horrendous problems. 2:15:21 Interviewer: Well, let’s elaborate on that. What do you mean by that? �Well, we realized that the Japanese were a little more fanatic, well the Germans were bad enough, but the Japanese were not going to be conquered. Interviewer: So you’d heard through the news reels about some of the atrocities? I’d heard not only through the news reels but my brother had spent, he was a liaison pilot with the field artillery, and he’d, his plane had crashed several times or so. 2:16:07 And he really had experiences that were horrendous and he had suffered malaria and jungle rot and hepatitis, because he was in from the very beginning when they didn’t have any of the safety precautions that were in place later in the war, so he really was a casualty in his health as far as the war was concerned. Interviewer: So without going into the details of the travel, you went by a ship, right, across. Where did you first arrive and what was your first reaction to coming to a totally different environment? 2:17:01 On our trip over to the Philippines, we landed at Manila, but actually before we got over there is when there was V-J Day while we were still on the ocean, and we didn’t know for sure whether they were going to send us back to the states or whether they were going to send us on. There was great elation that the war was over, but it was still in a state of flux. I know that there’s been an awful lot of discussion about whether the atomic bomb was something that should have been done but I do know that it certainly saved my life and the life of those thousands and thousands of soldiers that were on their way to death and destruction. 2:18:17 And if they hadn’t dropped the bomb the war would have gone on for, I think probably many years, many years longer. So although the decision wasn’t our individual person’s, either our decision or our liking probably, it certainly was the answer to our prayers. So when they debate now whether that was the proper thing to do I just know for us who were alive and who were going to it, it was the proper thing. �2:19:04 Bill has often said that he thought it would have been smart of them if they’d have bombed the holy mountain instead, but whatever. I’m glad they dropped it for our sakes. Interviewer: All right, so you’ve arrived now in the Philippines. The war is over. What are your options now? What are you supposed to be doing? There were still casualties in the Pacific area and we still had wards. We had, actually, there were tents. The soldiers that were still casualties were in tents and I can remember giving shots in the tents. 2:20:07 And I also was elevated to being a chief nurse in the surgery, although the surgeries were not as many. They had actually a very beautiful facility set up in this one area in San Fernando and we did get to, we did do surgeries and there was a, I can remember the season was monsoon season, so there was rains and rains and rains… Interviewer: I guess that’s a good thing to talk about. You’ve been, of course, in the weather of the United States where you grew up, then you went to several other places, then you went to England, you went to France. 2:21:06 What was your first impression of the atmosphere, the environment, the weather of the Pacific? The weather in the Pacific was, I can think of two things. It had beautiful sunrises, beautiful sunsets, and the rest of it was pretty blah. It was barren otherwise, but it the most beautiful painted sunsets and you could see the natives, the Filipinos in their conical hats fishing in there. We had actually right outside of our campsite, we were right on the ocean, and we had the wreck of a, I don’t know whether it was a sub or what it was, but it was right out there on our area. 2:22:19 Interviewer: So you’re treating pretty much the residual casualties of the end of the war and I imagine they’re just as serious as they were during the war. I mean, these are the �ones that were fighting, when they were hurt it was still war time. But was there any sense that there were less and less of them coming through over a period of time? You didn’t really notice that. The wards were full. But you had a sense that they were trying to evacuate as many people as possible because this was the end, presumably the end of the hostilities. 2:23:09 I do know that the Philippines, the Filipinos were still very, and whoever else was out there, was really hostile because they would not let the nurses leave this encampment without having an officer with an armed gun on him. What I usually did was make the officer give me the gun. I don’t think I’d have known how to use it but I liked to have the control of it. 2:24:01 But we did get to see several things in the Philippines. We saw the place where the treaty, the Japanese treaty either had been signed or they had met to consult on it, in these quarters. It was near Baguio. Baguio was the resort area of the Philippines and it was a gorgeous spot. Down where we were was like the arid, dry spot and up there in the hills was this beautiful area. And they had the nuns up there and they had the silver filigree necklaces and things that they made. It’s one of the beautiful things I remember about it. 2:25:00 Interviewer: So when did things, not when in terms of an exact date or something like that, but give us an idea of when things started to wind down and what were your orders at that point? Were you going to go back to the states? Were you going to go back to Europe? What were your options and what…were you ordered to go somewhere? We had the option of going on anyway to Japan to be part of the army of occupation or we could return to the states, and I thought, the war is over, I’m leaving. I’m not going on to Japan. My mother had suffered long enough. And my brother had been sent back to the states, so we were all eager to go home so that we could start our real lives again. Naturally, I did not volunteer to go on to Japan. 2:26:03 Some of my nurse friends did, but not me. �Interviewer: Well, during this period of time, were you corresponding with Bill? Was there any decision making involving him in this thing too or where were you at this stage in terms of your relationship? We had corresponded almost daily. Of course, there were a lot of letters that were not received, so you’d get them in batches, you know. In fact there was a number of letters that came after I got back to my home. But I think that I learned to love Bill through the letters, through understanding…if he had not been a good communicator I don’t think I would have learned how much he meant and what a strong and wonderful character, person he was if it had not been for the letters. 2:27:13 In fact, I have, I made a book called “So Long Lives This” out of all the letters that I wrote and he wrote. He kept his and I kept mine, so they intersperse through this book. It’s long, but it’s not been published because not only is it personal, it’s too long and too expensive to publish. Interviewer: Well, I will agree with you that he is a character, since I’ve known him. I’m very, very pleased that you’ve kept those. I think it’s very important that your family have that for the future. So you’ve made the decision. You’re coming back. What was the process, if you will, of getting out of the military? 2:28:04 Or did you return home still in the military? When I left the Philippines, I left as chief nurse of my 123rd unit, guarding all of these strays that had not previously left or were not going on to Japan and really not knowing what a chief nurse did. In fact, it wasn’t until I got back and read all the papers that the chief nurse had written where she told every place I’d been and how many inoculations I had that I realized that I was glad that I’d never been a chief nurse because it was the paperwork. In fact, I did have a wonderful chief nurse who I, her name was Mildred Earhart and she, I don’t know where she is �now, but I did see her several times after the war. 2:29:08 So anyhow, I took this group in three truckloads to Manila and there was devastation there, great devastation and dusty roads and rioting and things that, because we were kept on this isolated base, we had not seen. A lot more danger than I was aware of. Incidentally, we were not the last people to leave this encampment. There were still people there and I don’t know what happened to them. But anyhow, in November we were put on the marine jumper that jumped all the way through the water back. 2:30:07 Another ship that I don’t care to have. We came back and landed in Camp Anza, California which is somewhere near the Golden Gate, and we landed on Thanksgiving Day. From there, we were shipped back to the base nearest where we had enlisted or joined the Army and mine I think was in Des Moines or somewhere near, somewhere in Iowa. And we signed all the papers and were put on terminal leave. 2:31:05 They had these big, what do you call it, debriefing centers set up to handle the massive number of people that were leaving. And of course, we could be put in the reserve, and so we were put in the reserve in case anything else happened. Interviewer: Were you intending to stay in the military? No, no. I was only in the military for the duration. Interviewer: So once you were put into the reserve then, I assume you went back home at this point. I went back home and, actually found out that my mother had moved. 2:32:01 I didn’t know where they were, which was kind of an unhappy situation. I will say one thing, travelling back from California to Iowa, I was first amazed at the lights and the beauty of the states that, you know, everything had been dark in all these places and to find that life had gone on very comfortably. The other thing that I didn’t like was the fact that having spent enough time being �gone that the war was old news, that the civilian populace were not happy with the returning nurses and returning people, that, you know, from respect you got not very much. 2:33:21 So I was really unhappy with the way people treated the military. It goes from great love of the military while they’re working to great disrespect when they don’t need them anymore. Interviewer: Did you experience that when you went to a hospital to apply for a job or something and there was already people there? No, no. I’m talking about the general feeling as we rolled across the country in these troop trains. 2:34:06 And it wasn’t until we got into actually Iowa where you got a welcome or so. Interviewer: So it was the hometown crowd that really gave you the welcome back. Yeah, more or less. But I mean, it just seemed like a very cold atmosphere, and you realized how much less the civilian population had had to suffer and how little they appreciated it. Interviewer: So when you arrived home, you’re of course, thank goodness, you’re greeted by your mother. Well, you found the house? I guess that’s the first thing, how’d you find the house? Actually, I phoned and they said, “Oh, she isn’t here anymore.” And she hadn’t a phone where she moved because there was a priority and you had to have a real reason to have a phone or else you couldn’t get one. 2:35:07 That’s another thing, the neighbors that, she was not very nice about letting her come to the phone. So a lot of things ticked me off when I got back. I guess I was ready to be ticked off. Interviewer: So how did you eventually find your mom? Well, I got her on the phone finally, on the neighbor’s phone, and found out the address and things, but all of these things had happened while the letters were not going back and forth, so I didn’t know that they’d bought a house and I didn’t know where I lived anymore. And she �didn’t know because the first thing she said to me was, “Who is Bill?” She said that I was fickle because I couldn’t make up my mind between which person I was going to marry, and she said, “Don’t tell me any more about your romances.” 2:36:11 And so I didn’t tell her. Interviewer: So your brother shows up too? Was he there? Yes, my brother was in hospitals from the time that he got back because the last times that he had been in the Pacific when they were having those last flights and he would take the flight of the person that was supposed to take it so that the guy wouldn’t die because he felt like he would make it back better than they. 2:37:02 In the end they had to lift him up to get him in the plane. Once he was in the plane he was fine, but his legs would get paralyzed from…so he had… Interviewer: So he was in the hospital, so you went to visit him in the hospital there … or he already got home? No, he was out by that time. And he demobilized and then he went back in again. Interviewer: Let’s cover now how Bill comes into this story again. Did he come to visit you there or did you go to visit him or what happened next? Well, we both arrived on different sides of the continent on Thanksgiving Day, and there was a letter for me when I came back that my mother had. 2:38:08 I guess he must have called or so because he called me on the telephone and then he came up to visit his father who was also an Air Force colonel in Grand Island, Nebraska which is next door neighbor to where Sioux City is. And so he’d visit his father on the weekend and then he’d come up to see me. Interviewer: So is that when he proposed? He proposed on Christmas Eve of 1945. Interviewer: And you said? 2:39:00 �What he said, and he still says he didn’t say it, but he said, “I take it for granted you’ll marry me,” and of course I did. That’s when we got engaged. Interviewer: So you got married and tell us just a brief… I got married and I’ve had ten children and now we have thirty seven grandchildren and four great-grandkids and we’ve had a wonderful life. Interviewer: That’s wonderful. One last question, and I ask this of everyone that I interview. What do you feel you accomplished during that period of time, that period of time that you went over there, went into danger? 2:40:01 What effect did that have on the rest of your life in terms of the person you became? Some people talk about how they grew up very quickly while they were out there, but what effect did the wartime experience have on you as a person for the rest of your life? The effect that the war had on me is it did mature me. I think I got more self confidence in myself and a broader view of people. More or less, it made me an adult and I could also see through my own eyes rather than through my mother’s eyes or through my childish ideas. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeftonE0737V Title A name given to the resource Sefton, Elizabeth (Interview transcript and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sefton, Elizabeth Description An account of the resource Beth Sefton was an Army nurse during World War II. She volunteered for duty in 1942 and continued to serve until after VJ Day. She served in England, France, and the China Burma India Theatre working with surgeons and American, German, Russian and English casualties. She left the service as the Head Nurse and a 1st Lieutenant in the Army. Beth met her husband Bill while serving in the war and came home to marry him. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army. Women's Army Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f148226b715287318d3661ff7bfd6e56.mp4 81a9fda67a9ae607d5acae1c54b7d2ab https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e851eb8043fef0e62120c0f23edf7aa.pdf 341cacd2f1ee25467393fa83b1b383df PDF Text Text Bill Sefton Interview Michigan Military History Museum 9/18/2003 Interview By: Frank Boring Part 1: 1 hour 53 minutes 29 seconds (length) (the time code will read as „1‟ not „0‟, then „2‟ not „1‟) (1:00:44) Bill I would like to start off by just asking where were you born and when were you born? I was born in Anderson Indiana on March 5, 1922. My parents were…my father had been a infantry company commander in WWI. The biggest day of the year for me was the opening day of quail season when I got to go hunting with my father, grandfather, the dogs and what have you and pretty much grew up in an aura, if you will, of outdoor sports and the love of the country side. (1:01:23) The fact that your father was in the military, did that have an impact on you? Well it certainly did. I thought that I had a tremendous admiration and affection for him Even though he was rather an austere figure back in the days of the depression. My mother was smart enough to have us four kids in bed before he got home (laughing)…before he closed up the furniture store and got home so……..except things like hunting trips, I didn‟t really see near as much of him as I did my mother. (1:01:55) At the point of schooling, what kind of schooling did you have? Well I went through a catholic parochial school through the 8th grade and through high school…and then after the war, I mean after school, I didn‟t have enough money to go to college right away so I worked a year and then I started taking classes at Ball State Teacher‟s College in Muncie, IN, 30 miles away, driving over…At that time I was working seven nights a week in Delco-Remy doing defense work so I would go to work at 11 get off at 7, drive down to Muncie and take 3 classes. I took English, Chemistry…Typing, English and Chemistry because those were the only three I could get in a row...(laughing) (1:02:44) So at this particular point in time was there any intention of getting involved in the military at all. Well actually…when the National Guard was mobilized. They formed in Indiana State Guard which is really a militia and my father was the company commander and a close buddy of mine, of course we both joined, and my dad said, one thing, “you‟re welcome to come in son, but you got to realize one thing, I can never promote ya.” (laughing) A year later, his executive officer said, “Pete, he‟s the best drill instructor and bayonet instructor we got, you gotta promote him (laughing) so he did promote me to corporal. But that did turn out to be a tremendous advantage and I actually got in the Army. �(1:03:30) Well let‟s talk about that part. How did you actually get into the Army? Well, the war broke out and I was determined to go and my parents at that time you had to be 21 to join without your parents‟ consent and they were saying,”look why don‟t you just finish out the year at Ball State so at least you gotta…running…leg up on college. And my closest friend had taken a job out in San Diego at Consolidated Aircraft and so we agreed that during the course of break that…I said, “I wanna go out and visit with him.” They agree, ok, but they did sign my papers before I left…(laughing…so nobody was really fooling anybody) They knew as well as I did that I wasn‟t going to be coming back….(laughing)….. (1:04:27) Well let me ask you this, why the Army, why not the Navy or the Marines? Well, two reasons I suppose. Mainly because my father had been in the Army and the other thing I had read about the new branch of military, headed up by the army, the paratroopers and that intrigued me enough that early on I had gone down to Indianapolis at the reception center there and asked them about how do you get in this. I still remember there were these two sergeants sitting there, one of them turned to the other one and says, “hey, here is a guy that wants to jump!” They looked at each other and then the guy said, “you got to understand, we‟ve only have thirty openings a month, of course there‟s still twenty-nine open.” But anyhow, I guess the main reason was I knew that my dad had…I thoroughly admire that…he had been a commanding infantry company in the trenches and I figured if you got in the paratroopers you‟re probably going to get into the fight and not be shunted off to something else. And that was the main reason I joined. (1:05:35) Well, what did you know about paratroopers at that time? Only what the Army was putting out. That you had to be able to fight independently, on your own at night, etc. and you had to be highly trained and that was uh…ya know they polished it up pretty good. (laughing) (1:05:52) Yea but Bill, what I guess what beats me, here‟s this sergeant telling you that there‟s 29 out of 30 opening, okay and they‟re telling you about flying at night and all this kinds of stuff …this appealed to you, or this is something you found…? Oh, it appealed very much to me. I wanted to be at least as good as my dad was and I figured that was one that I could do….there would be no doubt that at least I tried. (1:06:19) So you arrive in San Diego….is that right? Yup…I got to San Diego (1:06:24) So, what happens when you arrive in San Diego? �Well, I went out to the recruiting office and enlisted and they sent me out to Ft. Rosecrans which is a coast artillery post and they gave, started giving me these, these physicals and I had as it turned out what I didn‟t know anything about at that time was called a “low threshold”. With a low threshold I could drink a chocolate malted and flunk any urine analysis in the world…(laughing) and I had been drinking a lot of chocolate malteds. He said your sample was 4+ sugar, but we‟ll give you four more tries. So I started drinking water and eating nothing but sweets and by the time I got to the fourth one, not a trace of sugar. But I had drank so much water…..the specific gravity was too low (laughing) and then the fifth…just a trace of sugar showed up and they said, “sorry, we can‟t use ya.” I said, “well you‟re losing a damn good man to Arizona!”…I hitchhiked to Tucson and went to the recruiting office as soon as they opened up. The physical there consisted of counting my eyes, listening to me breath and saying, “raise your right hand!” (laughing..) (1:07:49) So …now you‟re in Arizona…. I am in Arizona and I apply again for airborne and I am sent to Ft. Bliss, TX. And we go through a whole bunch of psychological tests and what have you and this corporal said “you don't want to go into the airborne infantry, there are a lot of jobs where we can use you better..you know and so forth…..so I said airborne infantry…put it down there……so he did. (laughing)….there‟s a sideline here I got to tell you…in the perennial tent we had two Mexican kids who could barely speak English and one of them had just come back from going through a test and I said to him, well what happened…..he says…I go through zee test, I come back…talk to this little man behind zee desk …he said do you like to go for walks, I said yes. Do you like to be in the woods….I said yes….he says……”Good, you‟re in the infantry!” (laughing) But the infantry historically…had always gotten that kind of cannon fodder. (1:08:55) Let me ask you this, your first attempts to get in, you drank too many chocolate milks or chocolate shakes, the second time and then finally you had to go to Arizona. Was there a sense of frustration there, or is it just you‟re going to do this and you‟re going to do this no matter what? I had no doubt that I would get in……(laughing…) none whatsoever. (1:09:16) Bill, just hypothetically, what would have happened if you couldn‟t get in in Arizona? I would have gone somewhere else (laughing) doctors or something……. (laughing)…I suppose…I would have hired my own (1:09:29) So now you‟re actually joined up, you have gone through the psychological tests, what were those like. I realized it was a long time ago but what basically were they trying to find out? They were mostly measuring IQ and measuring aptitudes and things of that nature, that is primarily what they were. I don‟t remember what all they were. I do remember when we got to Camp Roberts for basic training, when they called me up, the psychologist to go over the �interview with him, he just asked me questions like, “what do you call a hill.” I said, terrain feature…(laughing)…and never told me why I was there…and the next day they called me the “platoon idiot” (laughing)……apparently I had the high IQ and whatever the reason for it I don‟t know…I just know that they called me in in the next day or two they called him and that was all they ever called out of our platoon. (1:10:38) So let‟s talk about, first of all…basic training, but I also want you to talk and give us a sense of what it looked like, the area…Camp Robertson, you said…look liked Camp Robertson [Roberts] California…when I first went there the vast drill field was covered with vehicles primarily because they were still afraid of Japanese air attacks …landings and the cadre formed a task forces…we had to fight but it didn‟t last very long. It wasn‟t long after that we were using it just for a drill field. But that was out in near San Luis Obispo…it was dry and pretty much dessert. You lips would split, chap and split. We started in February and were there through April. (1:11:32) What were your buildings like in billeting? They were World War II vintage barracks. They were all built…the whole camp was built. They certainly never had that capacity before and they had artillery and infantry there. (1:11:47) So just so that those of us who don‟t know or fully understand, you‟re not technically in the paratroopers…yet…right? Oh no…no…no! (laughing) (1:12:04) What was the daily routine of basic training? Well, the daily routine was (laughing) the basic rudiments of infantry…..you went from close order drill, you went into weapons training with all the weapons that the infantry had at that time and then you had maneuvers…not really maneuvers but you had tactical exercises. Basically their job was in that thirteen weeks to prepare you for going on to unit training and everything else. So it was nothing like going through Marine boot camp, but it was rigorous. They kept you very busy and it was pretty interesting. (1:12:50) I was going to asked you, “you wanted to be a paratrooper?” Yup! You have to get through basic training even to get to that point…… Oh yes…yes indeed! So did you feel…..I guess what I am trying to get from you is….you‟re with a whole group of people who really don‟t know where they are going to go, including yourself, you may �not make it to paratroopers…you may end up in somewheres else, were there other people there that was specifically knew what they wanted like you did. Oddly enough the whole third platoon of our training company, almost the whole, were all the guys that had asked for airborne so they were all “gung ho” to go….not every man but I would say at least 75% of them were. They were there for that reason. They wanted to go airborne and they were mostly from the southwest. Course I enlisted in the southwest, in fact, I was the only one from north of the Mason Dixon line in our platoon so my nickname became “Indiana”…(laughing) (1:13:57) So during the off hours from basic, what did…. especially the guys who wanted to be in the paratroopers…..what were you guys talking about? What were your bull sessions and stuff? Just about how we intended to make it someway or other. You know, that‟s what we what we wanted and we were determined to get. (1:14:16) What age were you around this time? Well, I was 19 at that time and I turned 20 in March of that year. (1:14:25) Was that pretty much the age of the people you were with then? Pretty much because they weren‟t drafting 18 year old kids yet. So I was probably one of the younger ones actually. (1:14:37) What did you know about the war? How were you learning about it and what did you know? Only what we got to read in the newspapers and the radio. You know…. about Pearl Harbor, we knew about that before and we did not really know…there wasn‟t a lot to know at that time….Baton still hadn‟t fallen if I remember correctly. It was getting pretty close. We knew that was trouble there, but we were mostly concerned with learning the trade so to speak. (1:15:11) So you get through basic training, what is the next step? Well, they also at that time had decided, the Army had, that graduates from basic training could apply for officer candidate school, and they put the notice up on the bulletin board and I guess they had thirty, forty guys fall out. The other three…two platoons incidentally were all from Pittsburgh. A lot of them were just like the dead end kids….you know (laughing). One of these Pittsburghers came by and saw all his buddies in line you know and he started laughing. He said, “you idiots!” “Only guys going to make it and that is Sefton!” and to this I don‟t know why he thought that…and actually three of us from our platoon…the company commander was the first hurdle, and I think the First Sergeant he probably had something to say about it too. Then the battalion commander and the regimental commander they were rubber stamps. If the �company commander said, “this man is qualified.” They would automatically….then you went before a board, infantry board, and there would be a Major, a couple Captains, and a couple of Lieutenants and they would fire these questions at you. The first one they fired at me was, “Sefton, what makes you think you want to be an infantry officer?” And I thought to myself, who said there is no God! (laughing)…..I said “Gentleman, my father was an infantry company commander in WWI and I always thought that was a thing a man should do…when the defense of the country‟s at stake.” Later on they said, “What do you do for a stoppage of a third position with BAR, Browning Automatic Rifle? Well just by happenstance, I had been reading the thing again the night before and I rattled off the immediate action with every comma in place (laughing) and they all looked at each other and said “my what soldiers we‟re training here.” (laughing). He said that will be all Sefton, your company commander will let you know. So I am walking back and I am thinking, “oh, my God, I gave him the immediate action for the wrong position….” (laughing)of stoppage…and not a one of them knew the difference (laughing)…… Anyhow the three of us, two of us did go and we had both requested Airborne. (1:17:49) I know this is really difficult since it was such a long time ago, but how were you actually notified that you the officer‟s…that you were gonna be an officer? The First Sergeant said…….the company commander called us up and congratulated us. But the thing I remember most about that was when the two of us were now leaving the post to go and this gray hair World War I age, “potbellied” First Sergeant who was so rough everybody was afraid of him. He came right over to me, picked up our duffle bags, carried them across the road to where the busses were going to pick us up and he said, “You men are going to become officers and gentlemen. I have only one request. Don‟t ever forget the enlisted man‟s point of view.” ….and I never did (laughing). But I can still see the expression on his face. I can still see that day so clearly. (1:18:48) So you board a bus….. Oh yeah… (1:18:52) Where you going? I was going to a railroad station and then they took us on the land grant railroads up through Utah, I think it was about a three day ride to get there and some bridges were out, so we got there actually a little late to start class 74. But they created a new class 74A for those that came late. And O.C.S. was a, oddly enough, in our class there was really three major parts. The ones that were just out of basic training, there were others that were already non-coms with two, three, four years of experience and then there were the VOCs. The VOCs were volunteer officer candidates and they were people with college degrees. Most of them were up in their thirties or so and were successful in some field or other and they could volunteer for this and they would �take basic training first until they flunked out of O.C.S. you were free to go back to civilian life and take your chances on being drafted. So it was about a third and a third and a third the way it was split up. The training was very intensive, you were learning the tactics, you were learning terrains, you were learning all this sort of stuff and you have a lot of not only the lecture instruction, but also hands on instruction and I remember one instructor, we went out and he said, “I can always tell the O.C.S. class from a basic officer class.” “The Basic Officer Class, were once with R.O.T.C. commissions coming in. He said, “When I say good morning to the Basic Officer Class, they all say….Good morning!….When I say it to an O.C.S. class, they write it down.”……(laughing) Getting that little gold bar put tremendous pressure on everybody in there and the worst part of it was that at the end of each month you had to rate every man on your floor of the barracks from one thru twenty, or the first twenty four or whatever it was. And the first five, you had to tell why they were in the first five and the last five, you had to tell why they were in the last five. And that was really tough to do. It was the worst thing about it, but when we finally got through the course and they call us out for the last time as enlisted men and they read of six or eight names, and said you men will report to the variety room and we went off on this victory march….no packs…no weapons…singing …(laughing) When the Saints Come Marching in!…..(laughing) Head back and those guys were gone, their bunks were gone, the other bunks were neatly spaced as if they never existed. Like they had never been there. I forever residing memories of that I took from there [?]. (1:22:03) This may seem like a stupid question, but you know you‟re going to war…don‟t you, what was the mood now you are now becoming and officer which means you are going to be responsible for other people. Were you too young to really realize this? Did this weigh on your mind at all? I think this is just what you gotta do…it is what you are supposed to do…you‟re going to defend your country and you do as well as you could. As soon as I got the officer position I applied again for the airborne and so did my buddy. The cadre company commander went on leave and neither applications were forwarded. I ended up guarding the locks at Sault Saint Marie with the 131 Infantry Regiment and barrage, balloons, aircraft weapons…(laughing……)…we never saw each other again…course as soon as I got to Sault Saint Marie, I put in my application for airborne again (laughing) within a month it came or two months it came through I went to Toccoa, Georgia, and joined the 501. (1:23:18) Was there any knowledge of where you were going …like you say to join the 501. Did you really know what that meant or did you just sort of went and then you found out? Well, we knew it was a parachute unit, we knew we were going to go to parachute school eventually and that the paratroopers were going to be the highly trained infantry and in all probability going to be used. (1:23:45) So you are on your way there now and you travel by what……train……okay? I had a 10 day delay on route which happened to coincided with Christmas time and went right through my home town so that….my father was already overseas so my mother was delighted to see me (laughing)… �(1:24:00) Tell us about that. That must have been an amazing moment coming back for Christmas, you‟re now and officer and your dad greets you? Oh he wasn‟t there….he was already overseas. It was just my mother, my brother and sisters were there. (1:24:19) So that must have been a high point for you? Yes, I was just glad to be there but then the ten days went up pretty quick…(laughing) and I was on my way to 501 at Camp Toccoa, Georgia. (1:24:40) Let us get as much detail as possible, describe your arrival at what has been something you‟ve worked so hard to do coming to parachute school. Well, as I recall I got there and immediately interviewed by the Regimental Commander and assigned to Easy Company and that night I was going to get into the shower and I had my towel over my shoulder and it was already not quite dark but awful close. The Regimental Commander came bye and said, “Hello, Sefton”….that guy had that kind of memory for names. I was not the only officer that had come in that day. They were streaming in …(laughing)….and it really impressed me that he paid that much attention to the people he got and where he was assigning them. Well, actually I had been in “E” Company one day and they switched me to “F,” They were filling these companies up with draftees and this Colonel Johnson, the Regimental Commander had this policy, they got off the troop train, they were marched down to the mock tower which is a structure up 40‟ high which you got up and put on a parachute harness and you jumped out the door and you were held by a cable so you only dropped about 20‟ and then you went sliding down this long cable….anybody that did not jump got right back on the troop train….right then and there…(laughing) and I remember we had one first lieutenant that he looked like a very experienced first lieutenant …his face was hard…you know this guy had been through a lot….he could not make himself jump out of that tower, and he was shipped out immediately. In fact there was an old story supposedly true, but probably not, that they got this new recruit in on a Sunday and they said all you have to do is to jump out that 40‟ tower over there. The recruit said, “Hell, I can do that!” so he jumped, no chute….(laughing)…broke his leg….(laughing)….you didn‟t have to be all that bright to be a paratrooper (laughing)…. (1:27:22) What was the routine? You told us about the routine in basic training now what was the routine here at the school? Well, now the routine is, as an officer you were working with the new recruits in basic training so we are going back to a thirteen week cycle training them in weapons and all the way up through squad tactics and that was about the size of it. But it was pretty intensive you know and we also had great ideas like the company commander would say, Okay, we are going to do a 15 mile march in three hours…..(laughing). We had jeeps parked along the side passing out chocolate bars as you were double timing by.... and the thing I remember about it was that �battalion headquarters, S-3 and/or commander got us lost and at the end of the three (3) hours we were still twelve miles from camp…(laughing) and I remember yet, the company commander was determined we would get back across the line and the guys were falling out and we tried to help them….the first sergeant started yelling up to the head to the company commander, lieutenant….the are strung out from Hell to breakfast…….. (laughing) I was carrying two men‟s weapons besides my own and this one guy, all he had was a carbine….he was dragging and dragging and I said, “soldier, if you can‟t keep up, give me your weapon!”…and he handed it to me…(laughing)….. I had three in my platoon to say lieutenant, “you gotta let us set our own pace our feet are bleeding, we just can‟t do this!” I said, “Alright!….you set your own pace, but I‟ll be at the finish line and you‟d better be there too!” (laughing) About twenty or thirty minutes later, one of the guys that‟s marching beside you just past out….just boom! Right face down on the highway and I splashed water in his face and it took me about five minutes to get him to come to and just then this big old car came down the road an old Hudson I think it was….a farmer driving….coming toward camp from behind us. So I stepped out and stopped him you know. I said, I got a man here that has got to be dropped off at the camp dispensary and you‟re going to drop him off. So I yanked open his back door and here on the floor sat my three little Geronimos (laughing) let me tell you they led the platoon the rest of the way, but that was the kind of stuff you had to go through. I hadn‟t gotten to parachute school yet, but that is the kind of stuff I had in training. (1:30:16) You know that brings up an interesting question, if you can‟t answer don‟t, how do you compare your training to the training you guys put into effect? The training you actually went through in basic training and then the training you actually…… I think we were more “gung ho”. I think we thought….you‟re something special…you‟re not just infantry…you‟re parachute infantry you know and I think that imbued the instruction and we had a lot more physical instruction. We had a lot more pushups and gorilla stomps and runs….we ran everywhere we went virtually. A five mile run before or immediately after breakfast. Physical training we were in really good shape by the time we had finished, that was the biggest difference of all. (1:31:05) So the training ends and how were the people notified whether they…… Oh everybody went to jump school. Nobody flunked out of the training. But actually about half of the officers had already been to the jump school, the other half of us hadn‟t. And the 75 promotions that came through in that cycle they were many of the officers that had already been through jump school already and they were riding us that hadn‟t all the time….”you guys may make it”….you know….so if anybody was determined to make that first jump, it was those of us that had been taking all that ribbing all that time. But at jump school we were in such good physical...jump school is divided into four phases. The first was physical conditioning…and we were in such good condition, we skipped that and the regiment and then you went into “B” stage and that was jumping out of a fuselage sitting on the ground and jumping off a twelve foot platform and sliding down it and I believe there was an instruction coming behind that would trip the thing and whatever you did, you‟re supposed to hit the ground and go either into a right front role or a left front role landing technique. The third stage was off the towers. You were going �up these 250” towers, release and actually landing. The fourth stage was the jumps. You make five jumps and that first jump I made was the easiest jump I ever made….it was nothing that was going to keep me in that plane……(Laughing)….I was going to go out regardless and that first jump, you‟re supposed to count when you go…1000….2000….3000…if you get beyond 3000 it means your chute hasn‟t opened, but the opening shock will tell you that your chute is open….that comes just about the time you get to 3000 and it does rattle your molars and that puts what we called strawberries, if you happen to go out upside down you end up with bruises, we called strawberries on your shoulders and you‟d crack like a whip at the end. Theoretically, you crouch in the door. We would practice that all the time. You would put your left to the front and you kick straight out with your right leg. Theoretically the wind would give you a quarter turn and the chute would open slowly…..(laughing)…I never heard about it from anybody…but it never worked for me (laughing)… then when it did open and you look up and see that beautiful canopy up there and the silence and drifting down and the other guys are coming down and chattering …you know…and you hear the birds chirping on the ground. There is no other sensation quite like it. (1:33:58) So what is the sensation of landing like? It all depends on the technique. The best technique in landing is you climb your two front risers…each one goes to a suspension line. If you climb them it tilts the chute. You go a little faster but stop that oscillation if you‟re oscillating and happen to hit the ground on the back swing, you get some very serious injuries…broken backs….cricked necks, whatever. So you learn to glide and if you see that you got a woods over here, you grab the two left risers and pull them down and you‟ll glide off that way because the air has filled out on the other side of the chute and that puts you into the glide. (1:34:53) How much does fear factor enter into this? How much is fear? In jumping….? Oh….there is probably in some cases…never. You‟re always edgy….you‟re always..what am I doing here?…..you know. If you made enough, you go out and do it for fun so….laughing….it takes a while acclimate you on that. I don‟t think you ever get an all overall fear in fact the second jump was probably the hardness because I knew all the things that could have gone wrong on the first one….(laughing)…also we‟d waited in line for three hours because President Roosevelt was coming through and I always got the impression that we were waiting in line, and it felt like somebody had opened the pit cocks on your energy vats…..and were slowly running out. So that was the hardest. (1:35:50) Well tell us more, that‟s out of the blue, I didn‟t even know about this, tell me about this….Roosevelt came to your camp. Yes and we stood in line with our chutes on and the backpack reserve chutes in line for him to go through and he was late, of course…as usual, and we stood out in that Georgia sun, it was May at the time. It was warm in Georgia….for three hours waiting until it was okay to go back and get ready to jump. (1:36:17) So did you see him? �Oh…yeah we say him sitting in the car that drove by….had to be him….(laughing) (1:36:29) Lets go on then to your first jump, your second jumps, how many jumps do you…. Five jumps to qualify. (1:36:37) Okay And then, if you were an officer, you had a jump mastering thing…where, you didn‟t jump, you threw bundles out. We were the jump masters you know…there was a sixth flight and it was training to see if you‟d be able to see your DZ and if you were dropping…didn‟t make any difference, that was only a very short course……… (1:36:59) I‟ve lost you, I have no idea what you mean in terms of the sixth jump, you‟re throwing stuff out the …….. Your equipment bundles. The jumpmaster is the guy who gives the orders to jump. He may lead the jump. He may follow the jump or if he‟s the training jump master like in parachute school, he didn‟t jump at all. He just saw that everyone else jumped and rated you on your exit. You could do that too. Man had a weak exit, all of the sudden he isn‟t going to graduate. But the jumpmaster is the guy that calls the shots of when to go and what have you and it was training for officers if they were on a supply mission or if they were to…what else. How to spot the DZ or that kind of thing. (1:37:48) Okay, so you have done your five jumps, you‟ve done the jump master…what‟s next? Then we went to Camp McCall a new camp, still being built, and there we took up unit training. (1:38:00) Where is Camp McCall? It is in North Carolina not far from Fort Bragg. Not far from Charlotte, but anyhow that was unit training right up to maneuvers in Tennessee and that was the end of training. That was also of course continuous weapon training, continuous physical training, and continuous discipline all the way through. (1:38:29) What do you mean by maneuvering training? Maneuver is a large scale…that is where you talking at division level regiments. That is really training primarily for the staffs. Before that the first one they had was in Louisiana maneuvers. That was before the war that everyone still talks about (laughing)…you would have a…the weekends were administrative bivouacs…you had the pup tents. But from then on it was tactical bivouacs…if you had pup tents at all, they were camouflaged, you were undercover or sleeping on the ground in a foxhole or whatever. And those would probably last anywhere from three to �five days and then you would move to another area by convoy and you would prepare for the next one. Our last one was to be a parachute jump and the weather cancelled that…the very last one of the six weeks we were on maneuvers. (1:39:29) All right…so you got through that…where did you go next? We went to the staging area to go overseas. (1:39:40) For those of us who don‟t know what a staging area is. Well, it‟s a port when you get on the ships. You have barracks there and everything, and they wouldn‟t let us un-blouse our pant legs so they couldn‟t see that we were parachute troops…you know….no insignia…no helmet. (1:39:58) Now I don‟t understand any of this, why would they do that? Because those German spies might say….ahhh!!! (laughing) so we gotta get on the boats…and there stands our regimental commander, with jump boots, jump uniform, even the cup of his jump helmet is hanging down. (1:40:21) So at this point Bill, were you aware where you were going? We knew we were going to England. We knew that, yes. (1:40:28) How were you told or just explain to us….. Well, in the first place, we were on the east coast (laughing) that was the first clue. No, they told us that we were going to England. (1:40:39) Then beyond that….? Well, when we got to England we found out that we were going to be attached to the 101 st Division and I imagine the top commander and the top staff knew it. He probably knew that too and I was the battalion S2 and nobody told me (laughing) …. (1:40:58) Well, first of all, where did you arrive in England and two, what were your accommodations? Well, we arrived in Scotland actually, and then they put us on the train down to England and we were near the town of Newberry. It was actually called the Craven Estate...Lady Craven and it was also known as Hampstead Marshall...Which now incidentally has been turned into Hampstead Park and, they yesterday, if I hear it right, they unveiled a monument to the 501. �Some guy up there had become interested and is going to send me some pictures of it. He was using our regimental newsletter. (1:41:40) So this is what I am in visioning this to be like an English Estate or manor kind of thing? Yea, but we lived in tents. (1:41:47) Okay? We got in trouble for poaching trout with grenades…(laughing) and my S2 section never did get caught shooting pheasants down out of roosting trees with darts at night (laughing) (1:42:06) So beyond the training there was a few extracurricular activities that were going on…..well…that brings up a good point, beside the stuff you could get by…at night and in the streams, what kind of food were you eating? Oh mostly food, it wasn‟t “K” rations. It was garrison rations, the cooks got beef, potatoes, everything else and they cooked it and we would eat in the mess hall. (1:42:33) So it wasn‟t like can food it was actually like a buffet type that they would slop stuff onto a tray. Oh yeah….you‟d go through the line and you‟d get gravy, potatoes or whatever..(laughing) (1:42:47) So what was the mood of your group knowing that you were pretty close to putting this training into action pretty soon? I‟d say pretty up beat…very upbeat. There was a lot of kidding going around, but you know, but this is what we had been training for two years. It was like what we…….you got to understand, one thing I didn‟t mention, when you went through the parachute school, they somehow made you feel like were some kind of superman by the time you got out. The smallest enlisted man could whip any two armored men or five MPs all by himself (laughing)…..and some of us went over to Calumet City there and would try to prove it and come back with less three teeth…….but they did. You came out of that training feeling you had accomplished something that most guys wouldn‟t even try to accomplish and that spirit kind of stuck with you…all the way. (1:43:58) What was your first indication that you were out of training and all the training is over with and now you‟re going to be doing what you are sent out there to do? Well we came…they started biggeting people, that meant if you were biggeted you were “top secret” now. That filtered down from Eisenhower‟s staff which if…it started back in about 1943, early down to the battalion level where I was biggeted, before even the company commanders were that was so I could take the aerial photograph maps and start teaching my S2 crew without saying where it is. See this barn here we gotta know if that‟s being held. And they had a terrain map also, the last thing, in color, every farm house, every tree, every bomb crater, �every dirt road and I thought the engineers had done that …you know and that is one of the things I mentioned in my memoirs. It was just a couple of years ago when the guys had come to this first one or second one and bought my book and read it. He said, “I‟ve read all the books about going with the MU, the first time they ever mentioned those things and I was one of the guys that helped make them. We were detached from division and sent down to make those things.” They weren‟t made by engineers, they were made by people with art talent I guess in the division, but they were absolutely fabulous, and I assumed they made them for the entire coast of Europe. Bu they were…and they were right on the money! Of course you had to land on the money to mean anything (laughing). (1:45:51) OK, so I guess one of the points that I need clarification on, there were people higher in rank than you that did not have access to these things as you did? Only at the battalion level, the company commander…you know were theoretically all captains and they always would say, “Bill, where‟s it going to be?”….(laughing)…..and they were always biggeted a couple of days later…you know…but for a while I was a junior officers….only one who knew where we were going (laughing). (1:46:20) That brings up another point. Do you know…You were training your guys. You called them S2? That was intelligence, the intelligence section. The army is broken down into these…first of all you have the commanding officer, the executive officer, and then the G1 or Division or the S1 for regiment, that is personnel. S2, G2 is intelligence. S3 or G3 that‟s operations and S4 or G4 is administrative supply. That breaks it down about as close as you can. (1:46:55) So you are going over these maps, they don‟t really know where the locations are, but did you know where it was? Did you know where you were going? I knew it was going to be the coast of Normandy, but I didn‟t know beyond that. (1:47:22) What were the preparations for….see this is where it gets difficult for me to ask you questions because I want details at the same time, I don‟t want you to get too far ahead of yourself. Your studying the maps…are there briefings going on in terms of the operations started already? Not yet. Not for the troops. Not for the troops at all. They didn‟t get that until we got to the marshalling area. We moved out to the marshalling area and the marshalling area was behind barbed wires and guarded by MPs and our tents were in there and so forth. There was no communication with anybody. No letters going out…nothing while you were in there. And that‟s when the troops were then briefed and the missions. The troops themselves really only had to be briefed by their commanders. Our mission is our company is going to do this, you know they didn‟t have the overall picture. While we were there, all of the sudden our drop zones were changed shortly before we were there I guess, actually. We were supposed to jump at Sainte-Mère-Église where the 82nd changed, but the Army intelligence had learned that the Germans had moved a whole another division in that area and that‟s why they condensed the �drop zones and put the 82nd and put the 101st down to capture the causeways off of Utah beach and take Omaha and the locks at La Barquette…etc. (1:48:56) You are at the marshalling area and now everybody is being briefed in terms of what you are going to do, what was your next….what was your responsibilities, I guess, at this point. What were you supposed to be doing? Just keep rehearsing with my S2 section what they were going to do. What are we going to do with these two folding bicycles we got from the British. They were going to be thrown out with their own shoots….(laughing) and someone was going to get on this bike and ride down to that corner and see if that tree branch really got machine gunned there or not…(laughing) and this here other strolling bike and we threw them out and never saw them again (laughing) some French farmer probably still has them in his hayloft (laughing). (1:49:41) So gives us some other examples of things like the bicycles and what not. What other types of things were you practicing about? While there were, you know…everybody had the cricket…the well-known cricket. This was General Taylor‟s idea. The night jump…they jumped at night in Sicily and at Anzio and utter chaos…especially identifying them to friends so he thought that ….the British make them…these dime store crickets…. You would click…click…click….. click …click…and everyone had one hanging around their neck and that was supposed to click it and the other guy would then say “flash” and the other guy is supposed to click it back twice and say “thunder!” and then you say….”welcome!” because the German‟s couldn‟t say “Welcome”…they would say “Velcome” ….(laughing) that was our sequence. But that was the identification at night. It worked pretty well really. (1:50:48) All right, so now are we at the point now where you are actually going to the staging area or marshalling area? Yeah…the staging area is for shipment overseas. Marshaling area was getting ready to jump. (1:51:04) So what happened next then? Okay….of course we were supposed to jump on the 5th and the weather called it off, so you are told to relax (laughing) and the next day we went through again and get the word that it was going to be on and we were blackening our faces with burnt cork or whatever and getting all of our gear on ……you know…you start out weighing about 150 lbs. More than you did by the time you get it all back on. (1:51:38) That‟s what I want to get into…tell us about the gear. Alright. First place, now this is from head to toe. You have your steel pot helmet with liner and sometimes you have a first aid pouch tied to it or not. You had your main chute on your back. You had a musette bag which you flipped over and let it hang below the reserve chute. The �musette bag was all full of your extra odds and ends, the clothing and what-have-you, and so it is actually now resting below the reserve chute which you have on here over that you have a “Mae West” life preserver in case you land in the water. Hanging from there you have a roll of what looked like clothesline rope, rolled up and hanging there; that was in case you landed in a tree. A little pocket up here, you had a jump knife, the first switchblade knife; that was so you could cut yourself free. Working on down, you had your belt on and you had a canteen and you had a trenching tool and you had ammunition and you had, if you were an officer, you had binoculars, some guys had wire cutters and ammunition pouches and a “D” ration which was a sealed chocolate and the chocolate being back to World War I, to be “opened only under order of an officer”…..supposedly (laughing). In your side pockets you had three “K” rations and a Hawkins landmine which is about like a small cigar box and three grenades, and you had bandoliers of ammunition hung on you according to what your weapon was, and if you carried an M-1 rifle, it was broken down into three components and put in what we called a “Griswold Container” which is a flat, canvas bag, that you stuck through your webbing. The only problem with that was, you stuck it through on and angle and when the opening shock opened, it squared up under your chin, and if your knees hit the ground you could lose teeth and so, not everybody used them after that and the crew served weapons they had, like the machine gun, they have in a leg bag that was attached with like a 20‟ rope so the guy could release it before he hit the ground, and that weight would be taken off before he hit the ground. You also, of course, had equipment bundles. You had them under the plane and you hand them inside the plane and the ones under the plane were supposedly tripped by the pilot. He released those. (1:54:19) But you were really ….waddled out (laughing) to the airport. A lot of guys had to be helped into the plane. You just couldn‟t climb those steps with that much weight on depending on what their jobs was especially the guys that got the “SR-3” radio…you know. So we actually marched out eventually about a quarter to a half-mile from the tents to the airfield and these planes with their black and white stripes were dispersed all around it, and you knew what your number was and what “stick” you were. And when you got near the field, you started breaking off into these “sticks” going around the eighteen men to the plane. And at one point that road dipped just enough and the battalion ahead of us wasn‟t really splitting off into their own planes and that entire airfield was full of mustard weed in bloom. Just pure gold. And when you got it at eye level it looked like little sticks of black ants walking across an ocean sea….you know….That‟s still a vivid memory for me. You got over there and you found your plane and you sat there with your plane, now it is still broad daylight at this time, and finally you get the order to load and the planes start lining up and they are going down that fairway just perched on each other‟s tails and since I was going to jumpmaster this rifle squad I was going in with, I can stand in the doorway and look back out and it looked like a sea of black and white, river of black and white stripes coming up and I had this feeling like someone had pulled the handle on some gigantic machine and nothing was going to stop it….it was just that impressive to me. But then of course we had to rendezvous. It took about an hour just to rendezvous and get everybody in line before we actually took off for Normandy. We were headed for Normandy straight across, and we flew across and around the peninsula and the beaches a lot. We came in from the other side and flying back towards the English Channel. Our orders, at least in our battalion and our regiment were to just stand up and hook up five thousand yards (5000 yards) off shore. This “red” light comes on �and you stand up and hook-up in case there‟s any anti-aircraft weapons down there. You might have a chance to get out if the plane is hit. And then you‟re gonna to go down to the…we had eight minutes flying time to our drop zone and I knew all this from all this briefing, and I still remember that watching that black coast of France slide in from under the left wing, you know, and I am watching for muzzle flashes and watching for any strikeable match….not a thing……just perfectly black. Only trouble was, right after we crossed the coast, we hit low cloud levels, and they only had …these planes flew in groups of three, so the only navigator was in the lead one, and they all start spreading out so they won‟t crash into each other, and by the time they came out, some of them couldn‟t even see another plane, and so they are virtually on their own. Of course you got to remember, they were as green as we were. This was their first combat mission too. You‟re flying down the Douve River, and I‟m looking out the door of the plane and I could see fires burning on the ground, and I yell to the troops….now they had been standing up now for the better part of ten minutes, and I yelled, “We are in great shape!” “The air corps has bombed a lot of things!” I said there are all kinds of houses burning down ahead. I didn‟t know until later that those weren‟t houses, those were planes from the serial just ahead of us. I knew we were approaching our drop zone. I knew we didn‟t have very long to go, and I also knew we only had four minutes of flying time from the drop zone back to the channel. (1:58:36) We had this bundle right in the middle of the floor which had go out first, and we were jockeying it around to get it into the doorway and I became aware that something was happening different outside….I sensed it more than anything else, so I stood up and looked out of the doorway and my thought was that you did not need my chute. You can walk down any one of these streams of tracers coming up your “ass” (laughing…) it was like the 4th of July out there (laughing) and I instinctively ducked aside from the door, and immediately realized it was a bad troop leader move because the guys are starting to crouch and if the crouch, that is going to start pulling the static lines which are laced a crossed their backs held by rubber bands ..off. So I stood in the doorway and looked out again like I knew what I was doing, and yelled, “it‟s okay, they can‟t hit us!” ….(laughing) at that point a burst of what I assume was either 20mm, it sounded too big to be .50 caliber….sounded like someone pounded on the plane with a sledge hammer, went through. Now I am looking for the “green” light, you know? I can see our drop zone flowing by, you know…going this way…I recognized it. I was on the cross roads…I saw the barns I had studied and I still got a “red” light, and finally I started see these dark puffs in the air beside me and I realized that everybody else had jumped in the camouflage chutes and so I yelled “let‟s go!!” and we shoved the equipment bundle and it got halfway out the door and it caught the slip stream and it jammed. I don‟t know how long it took to get out. It might have taken all but three seconds. It only seemed like a quarter of an hour (laughing). (2:00:23) We got it out and the first five men when out of there practically riding each other‟s backs they were so desperate to get out of that plane….just blurttttt!! And the five were gone. Number six man, the plane yawed wildly and it was starting to do that. He had his carbine stuck to his webbing and he fell against the door and the barrel of the carbine broke through the paper tape that separated the two thicknesses, and he was hung up. I don‟t think he was hung up for more �than a split second. They piled up behind on the end, but he was gone like somebody squeezed a grape. He was out of there! The number twelve man was just approaching now, and the plane turned up on its left wing, and he didn‟t have to jump; it threw him out. By the time he got there, it was up on its left wing and he was gone, and the following four were then thrown off their feet, and at the split second looking down, I see the moon reflecting in the water and I could see what I took to be “white caps” waving….waves. The plane rolled back up again…and its going...they were supposed to slow down to ninety miles an hour. This guy couldn‟t have gotten a half a mile more out of that plane, and I tried to stop the next four guys. “Stop we‟re over the ocean.” I don‟t think they even knew I was there. I bounced off the door to the “head” four times, and all of a sudden, it was the emptiest cabin I had ever saw on a plane. Even the crew chief was gone. I don‟t know what happened to him. He had been right there helping put the equipment bundle out. I said I thought briefly of going up and tapping the pilot on the soft shoulder and saying, “Mac, do you mind making one more pass in the field, because I didn‟t have a chance to jump.” (laughing) The way that plane was flying. If he was alive, or not wounded. We had been told you could stand landing in the Channel for four hours before hyperthermia really got real testy. I had this “Mae West” and the other thing they told us that whatever happens, do not come back unwounded on the plane. And so, I think about my father in Italy and I think about my family and I am not about to go back and be court martialed. I don‟t think there really would have been a firing squad, but it sure would have been imprisonment. So I stood in the door, not like I am supposed to….not crouched …just like a plain log and fell out. I did every battle cry and supposedly, Bill Lee….that was General Bill Lee, we were supposed to yell that instead of “Geronimo.” I didn‟t yell “Bill Lee,” I yelled a full throated expletive (laughing)…at the same time I felt the opening shock, and I no more than looked up, which you always do to make sure it was open, and I hit soft ground. I thought, “My God, I am on a channel in the island!” [an island in the channel] What had actually happened was, they had taken aerial photos twenty hours before the entire mission and not a single photo interpreter realized, he was looking at was in effect an eighteen mile long lake. The “Krauts” had closed the docks on the Douve River and it allowed it or actually it opened it and allowed the tide come in and then closed them. The Douve River was way out of its banks and all across this bottom land was water and tall grasses sticking up and the waves and the winds were like wave tops and that is what I had seen. I later figured out I had landed just about a mile behind Utah Beach and hit the ground and found that it was almost impossible, it seemed like …getting out of that chute because all that weight and the speed at which we had jumped had tightened the straps so much, you couldn‟t get at them with your thumbs. We didn‟t have a quick release that we had when we jumped in Holland. You would just slap the thing like that and you were out. So I am cutting my way out, and this one kid comes running up and skids to a stop. I remember he had no helmet, no weapon, and he said, “Are you all right?” I said, “Yeah, I am all right.” He took off running again. I never knew where he went…(laughing)…or if he is still running across Europe (laughing). Another kid is about twenty feet from me, and he can‟t get out of his so I went over and started cutting him out. I identified myself as Lieutenant Sefton, and he says, “what‟s your plan?”…(laughing) “follow me!” We went about another, maybe fifty yards, and we found three guys who had gotten out of the chutes trying to cross a deep ditch…using “clicking” each other you know, and I identified myself as Lieutenant Sefton, “what‟s your plan?”….(laughing) It took me three hours to get to where we were assembling at, and in the field, they didn‟t have hedge rows, they had ditches, and they were all flooded. They had been under 8” to a foot of �water to the tops of them, and the bottoms of them could be anywhere from six to eight deep and you either jumped them or you stepped in them (laughing) and someone had to help pull you out. All the way a crossed then, I kept picking up guys that were scattered that far in that thing, and I must have had sixty, but anyway, when I run into a group of them out there, I am challenged by the voice, and I answers the challenge and says, “this is lieutenant Sefton.” Well, it was our regimental plans and operations officer, and he had a question, “Sefton, what‟s your plan?” (laughing) I said, “the last thing they told us if everything gets all screwed up, head for the fighting, and they certainly seemed to be all screwed up and the fighting‟s up on that hill there and that‟s where I am taking these people.” ”Good plan Sefton!” “You take the point, and I‟ll bring the main body.” So I started out with twelve guys. We come to the grand dad of all ditches….I mean the “great” grand dad. It was a good twenty feet across, and had a telephone pole laying a crossed it, so I led my point across there but the last thing I said to this Major, “you see that bunch of little trees out there about half way to the high ground?” he said, “yeah.” I said, “when I get there, I want to stop and we‟ll regroup and plan this thing.” “Good idea!” I get my twelve men across that log and look back and the main body makes a column left…(laughing) they march down out of the picture. I kept picking up more men. Now I‟ve got about another forty, and I got two lieutenants, and we‟re getting pretty close now. There is no more sound distance between the time you see the tracers and hear the guns go off. (2:07:22) Were any of the guys that you picked up were actually ones that were in your plane when you jumped? I am assuming some of them might have been. I didn‟t know the men. They were a rifle squad from Dog Company, and the battalion commander had split his staff up so they would[n't] all go down in the same plane. So I didn‟t really know any of them by name, but I am assuming since I went back in the direction we‟d come, that some of the rolled up could have been on that, but it couldn‟t have been all of them, there were others that had also landed in that part of the field …. (2:08:07) Okay….now we are going to head into the battle. (2:08:16) So, Bill you are now out in the middle of nowhere basically….it‟s dark. One of the things I was going to ask you was I wanted to go back a little bit, you had mentioned about your training in jumping out of an airplane as a parachutist. I don‟t mean the jumping from the static tower, but I mean actually from the airplane. Were those landings pretty much in the daytime or did you do nighttime as well? We jumped at night as well. We had night jumps. (2:08:44) But the areas you were jumping into in training, you pretty knew where you were jumping in to and……. Oh yeah. We always knew where we were and where we were supposed to go and of course the pilots weren‟t under fire…….(laughing) they usually got us there. �(2:08:59) But when you jumped out on D-Day that wasn‟t the same thing…so I guess what I was going to asked you was one of the things that we didn‟t cover was when you landed…actually landed…where did you land and what actually happened immediately. You talk about it in the book, but you didn‟t mention it this time. Well, I mentioned that in the first place I was trying to get out of my chute. And I dropped right outside a French farm house. I dropped right beside it. It was soft ground. It was not flooded there, and I figured later it was about a mile behind Utah beach. George Koskimaki who has written three books. He was General Taylor‟s radio operator. He had gone back and said “Bill I can‟t find that house” and I thought later, you know…the heavy bombers about a hour before dawn was to fly along the beaches and blast a lot of craters for the guys to use for protection. They were actually a mile behind so maybe that house wasn‟t there anymore. (laughing). That could well have been. (2:10:07) I understand though that you also had an encounter with a non-human. Oh I forgot and left that out. When I was cutting myself out of my chute. Remember I had just hit the ground now, and I could hear hobnail boots pounding the ground and out of the corner of my eye I could see moonlight shining on bayonets. I am clawing for my equipment and couldn‟t get it. In fact, I had my father‟s WWI 45s but they were held with baling wire so I wouldn‟t lose it on my jump. I finally rolled over to see who was going to kill me or capture me, and this herd of cows skidded to a halt. The nose of the first one was so far from my face, and their hoofs were the hobnail boots, and the bayonets were their horns the moon was shining on. The cow got away before I could kiss her, but she did say, “Mooooooo!” (laughing). That was not an uncommon occurrence, I remember our regimental sergeant, he landed on a few of the cows and he just walked along with them because he figured there wouldn‟t be any land mines or you wouldn‟t have any cows (laughing). (2:11:27) Okay…now you‟ve gathered together all those groups of people. They are all coming together under, not necessarily under your voluntary leadership, but they keep asking you the same question over and over again……. They were very content to follow. One thing each officer had been issued was a big round luminous button to theoretically stick in his collar so that the troops could follow him. As far as I know, I may have been the only officer in the division to actually use one of them (laughing). But I gathered again about forty men and two officers and we were getting real close now. I said we had better just have a counsel of war. So we sat down and I sent one man out in front and one man to the right and one man to the left and one behind…to challenge anybody. Then I said, here is what we‟re going to do. I am going to take the point. I am going to take twelve guys, two scouts and ten others, and I am going to move out in front, and you guys split the rest of the group between you, and you follow and if I get something like that go through, you flank it and you flank it real quick. They said…okay. I have to go to a flash forward now because this is such a good story…… �So we made the plan. So I said, “Okay, move out.” I picked up the guards out there. “Let‟s go!” and now we are back in England and there are some lightly wounded men coming back from the hospitals, and I am down there just watching them de-truck you know, and all of a sudden there is this little guy standing beside me, red faced…he says, “Lieutenant! you remember me on D-Day night?” I says, “Sorry trooper, I don‟t have the foggiest recollection of you on D-Day night.” He said, “Well, you damn well should have!” “You put me behind a bush and left me there all night!” (laughing) He had a right to be ticked off you know…(laughing) in combat when you are given an order that has to be fulfilled…everything…. Anyhow, we got really pretty close. (2:13:45) Okay, I am going to stop you once again. I know this is going to sound like a really stupid question, but you keep saying that you‟re getting closer …how did you actually know that you were “getting close”? You know it by the…you can see the flashes. You could see the tracers. You could see the grenades going off, and when we first hit the ground, you could see them and eight seconds later…you‟d hear the sound, and so you knew you were nowhere close yet (laughing). But by this time, the tracers were like going overhead and the firefight was actually maybe a matter of 100 yards ahead or so and that‟s when I told my point, the twelve guys to drop their packs, fix your bayonets, we‟re going to assault this. I just started to move out and I ran a crossed a guy on the ground. It was my S2 section sergeant. I called him “pop” because he was 29 years old. And he was giggling. And this was the reaction that was wildly shared. He was giggling, they tried to kill me….they tried to kill “old pop”…it was the sensation that, and I felt the same thing when I looked at the tracers…there were guys down there that I hadn‟t even been introduced to me. They‟re trying to end my military career…(laughing) and that was a very calming sensation. “My God somebody is trying to kill me!” I guess he had bummed up his ankles and couldn‟t walk, and I said “Pop, I am going into the assault.” “Here, you take this carbine, and give me your “Tommy” gun.” (laughing). So he said, well, Colonel Ballard is right over there by that hedgerow. That was our battalion commander. I was about to assault our battalion assembly area…(laughing) and I had more men than he did when I got there. In fact, only twenty percent of the battalion was assembled, and it was at dawn that he said, “Sefton, take a couple of scouts and go see if you can find the first battalion,” because they were supposed to share that drop zone with us. It turned out that the first battalion was in the serial “A” that was possibly being shot up, but also, you pilot [the pilots] had scattered them over a sixty square mile area. Some of them never did get back on course. Some got in new groups …a lot were captured, but there were also several cases where pilots did not give the “red” light, did not give the “green” light and dropped their troops in the channel and of course all the equipment those guys had on, it was a miracle if they could use a “Mae West”. I mean they just went right down, you know…..no way that the “Mae West” was going to help them unless they could shed all their equipment first which was nearly impossible. �At any rate, Colonel Ballard was there, and I was helping find more men, and we looked across the hedge row and here is the “Geronimos”...course our regiment was the ”Geronimo regiment”…you know on our flag and so….among ourselves we referred to each other as “Geronimos”…and here‟s this one sitting on big clod of dirt. This huge clod…beside a bomb crater…it had blown up out there. He is sitting there on this with his rifle a crossed his lap, and by that time the moon had gotten a little brighter and the Colonel said, “What unit solder?” …He said, D company!” He said, “Well, I am your battalion commander!” “Come on over here and help us!” “Sure like to Colonel, but I got a broken leg.” And he is sitting there with his rifle a crossed his lap waiting for somebody with a coalscuttle helmet to come by so he could shoot him…..(laughing) That was some of the kind of guys that we had. It was the degree that would save them trained and the degree to which they had been instilled with this fervor. (2:17:32) Bill, not going into a lot of detail, what was the actual strategy that you were supposed to follow. Me personally? (2:17:42) Well you and your group. What theoretically was supposed to happen? Well, our battalion had two primary missions. One was to seize the town of Saint-Côme-duMont, the other was to seize the locks at La Barquette that controled that flooding, and a couple of the small bridges over the Douve River. Those were our objectives. The regimental commander just by happenstance landed on the locks, because his plane dropped him there (laughing) and the locks were captured right away. The first place, they weren‟t defended….so you were pretty sure ..(laughing), but they were under fire from the heights of Carentan across the river. Our battalion, like I said, was supposed to attach Saint-Côme-duMont. Well, the first thing the battalion commander wanted to know was where the first battalion that was supposed to share this place with us, and he says, “Sefton, go see if you can find the first battalion.” Now that has been repeated in the night drop by S.L.A. Marshall that he sent me to find the regimental commander. No he hadn‟t. He was more concerned who was going to help us (laughing) So I took this patrol now…it was just breaking dawn and the battalion was against the first hedge row I had seen because I had come down from the bottoms and up and there were hedgerows up in that area. So I took four scouts with me and there is a long hedgerow coming up from down the bottom lands where I have been. I had just never gotten that far toward it. So we start down that and walking along and all of a sudden bullets are snapping past our helmets from the other direction and we hit the ground. I will never forget, suddenly realizing after laying there flat on the ground for like maybe ten seconds…I don‟t know….”Hey!…I am allowed to shoot back”…(laughing)…. Oddly as it may seem, sometimes it took that kind of time before you realize that. So I was still carrying the “Tommy” gun and where I thought the shots came from was a chateau a good 200 yards ..or 250 yards away, maybe further than that. I saw something like stirring in the bushes in front so I took the rifle from the guy behind me…an M1 rifle and emptied a clip into that it might have been chickens or it might have been anything. The chances of being a machine gun nest…at that range…were remote as hell…but at least no more were coming that way. �We went down that hedgerow ended and just beyond, another one came from the other side but did not quite intersect. There was a ditch or pond where the intersection would have been. And just on the far side of that little pond it looked like a muskrat‟s nest..it was that type of debris, and a guy laying beside, behind it yelling, “go back!….go back!….go back…!” Well, I was on a mission. I was an officer and there was a guy who had lost his nerve. I wasn‟t going to worry about that. So I told my first scout to leave the end of our hedgerow, run along the side of that pond, where it narrows down and jump behind the shelter of that hedgerow. So I sent him a crossed and meanwhile I guess I am still shooting at that other thing about that time. I looked up and he is over there. I then send the second man, and it seemed to take longer but all of a sudden now, he is over there…so I take the “Tommy” gun back, and tell the guy to cover me while I get over there. So I am really trying to maneuver crouch…that is what we called it…you are kind of hunched over and crowding….then some machine gun bullets come from my rear right where I had been shooting and it almost took off my nose…I mean it was right a crossed in front of my face, and instinctively I jumped into the pond which turned out to be about 8‟ deep. It was a shelf that had sidewalls because it was a combination of ditches. I am sitting there now on the bottom and the sun is shining down on the golden green shafts, and I am sitting there and this is the first time I have this experience where this little voice is talking in my ear. It happened many times in combat after that. “Sefton…you‟re sitting down here. It is a hell of a way to fight a war…..and one thing…you don‟t have much air in your lungs….you had better go up and get a breath of air.” Well, I had done a lot of “skinny dipping” when I was a kid in gravel pits and that. I was not afraid of being under water. So I got my feet out from under me, I lunged up and I just happened to get some air and here comes these machine guns right down there and I went right straight down and I am sitting there and this little voice is saying…“well, stupid, if you…….you still haven‟t got enough air…..you got to go up once more and get some...” So I went up once more and this time, the guy behind the hedgerow told the other ones he had just killed a lieutenant...(laughing) it had gone right across the top of my helmet without denting it……so now I am sitting there thinking, he has had three cracks at me…I mean two cracks at me and he is not going to miss again, so I crawled over to the far bank…the one nearest him, and I felt the “Tommy” gun ammunition break off of my web belt, and this is one of the points that illustrates that when I later became convinced, that in the first six days, I went right by the book. I didn‟t feel much emotion. I didn‟t feel any fear. I didn‟t feel any uncertainty. I was going by what the manual said to do, and the manual said….(laughing) supply economy…so I turn around…I groped around but now I was getting pretty muddy because of the bottom...I unhooked my belt and crawled over the bank and I got my hands on top but they are still under six or eight inches of water, because of the shell down in the field, and on top was this green scum…when we were kids, we called it “frog shit”….(laughing) and I eased my nose up through that stuff and thanking God for the first time for my generous proboscis ….it smelled so sweet..(laughing)…I must have waited, I don‟t know….three or four minutes…and finally the one kid that I knew there…his name was Joe Newman and I got lips out too…they were covered in scum and I said, “Joe…Joe Newman!” There was dead silence….and I said, “Joe…Joe Newman!” and this very hesitant voice says, “Lieutenant?” (laughing) I said, “Hell yes!….it is me!…..can you see me? He said, “Lieutenant, your own mother couldn‟t see you…” (laughing) So I had to work my way down…very slowly without making any ripple or any kind until I got across to him where the ditch had narrowed down. What I didn‟t know was that the second guy �that I had sent across had gotten in there and Joe had gotten him out. At this time the water was so cold that my legs are cramped and my arms are getting cramped and I said, “Joe I‟ve got cramps and I am not sure I will get out of here.” …He steps out from behind the hedge row like it was a Sunday afternoon in the park, and he tosses the rope across, and I am trying to catch it under water…..I didn‟t want the machine gunners to see me….(laughing) It slipped off my fingers and he came back, wound it up again and this time threw it further and I got it. I wrapped it around and around the Tommy gun handle because I knew I couldn‟t tie a knot in because my hands were too numb…so I says, “Joe when I count to three I am going to go let go, and I will go to the bottom and you start pulling that rope…so at the count of three I let go, the rope went tight and went a crossed that bottom ditch, hit the far side and I am going up like this with the Tommy gun, my head and shoulders broke through and the Tommy gun jammed in the roots of the brush. I swear to God, it felt like my back was getting a yard wider by the second, and Joe throws down the end of the rope and he wanders out…he doesn‟t weigh more than 125 pounds. He gets down, gets a hold of my uniform and yanks me out of there and not a shot was fired at that time…..(that was the closest call…I had ever had in combat….laughing) (2:26:08) So, you really don‟t know what happened to that machine gunner. He just stopped shooting? He thought he had gotten his target. He switched to some other target. He thought I was a goner. He wasn‟t paying me any more attention because the other two guys had gone behind the hedgerow. Anyhow, we go a little further up and now we‟re going up this intersecting hedgerow and it goes right in back of that chateau I was shooting at. We are going up that and I still had seen anybody from the first battalion and we pick up a guy that had had his finger shot off, and we see some guys out in the flat out there, and I said, “Joe…because the other guy and myself couldn‟t walk.”….we laid on top of each other for a while just to get warm. We were so chilled through. We were walking now but not all that well. I said, “Joe go see if those guys are from the first battalion.” Well, he gets out about fifty yards beyond the hedgerow and all of a sudden there is small arm fire coming from the chateau overhead and it had kicked up all around him and the guy with him is rolling all over the ground and Joe says, “hey, lieutenant, this poor son-of-abitch…has been hit again!” The guy head been shot again through the calf of his leg this time. Anyhow…the barn at that place had caught on fire, that chateau where they‟d been shooting from I guess. Mortar rounds or something and all of a sudden these four Germans are running out right across the front in that heavy smoke. I was the only one who could see them, and the Tommy gun wouldn‟t work. It had been under water and I whipped out my dad‟s 45….I yelled, “get…them! ….get them!...but they still don‟t see them. I whipped up that 45 and I blast off a round, and a cow about this thing overhear, ran around in a circle…….I‟ve always said a 45 was good for a paper weight, that‟s about it (laughing)….. anyhow…… �We went over to this village, it was called Basse Addeville….we pronounce it Bayzattyville and here was a major I had seen the night before and our Catholic chaplain, Father Sam was wounded in there. It was right across now…we had gone beyond that in the chateau to this little village. Everybody was kind of laying and remember now everybody had has no sleep since the day before, you know…I remember, I stretched out in the grass and must have slept 2 hours…just oblivious to everything all around. (2:28:42) What about eating during this period. You didn‟t eat anything, right? Oh we had “K” rations. I don‟t remember …I think I ate my first one there. (2:28:48) Okay…so no sleep…and no eating. One of the other things that the gentlemen you met the other day, Harold Folkema, he was infantry. He said that one of the things he remembered was that there was always noise….there was always sounds of guns going off. Do you remember silence at all during the period or was there………. Mostly silence…except early that morning and a few machine gun bursts. And the odd thing about it, once you got inside the hedgerows you could be three hedge rows away from a firefight and never hardly hear it. They were sound absorbing…you know. There was noise when you were under artillery fire, but at that time the Germans did [not] have that much artillery registered….it was sporadic…yes…but I am sure on the beach there was always noise…yeah we weren‟t on the beach, thank God. Anyhow, we get up and finally after we had rest a while, I thought, we ought to find the front line. They said it is right out there. I thought we ought to go out and see about how well it‟s held, so I took one scout with me and we went out looking, didn‟t see anybody…didn‟t see anybody…didn‟t see anybody. The house just up in front of me….all of a sudden, here are four Germans…rise up out of the ground and are running and assaulting that house…shooting at it and assaulting it. I didn‟t know my closest friend was in the house with a ruptured machine gun that he had been fighting there for the last hour. His platoon sergeant had been killed, and these guys shot the front door open and it opened and they threw in a potato masher grenade and he was savvy enough to open up his mouth so the concussion wouldn‟t blow his ear drums and the door blew closed again and opened and here were these four guys running right at him….and I am at his flank…..and I blast away with my carbine…two of them went down and the other two dragged them back….we always use to (laughing) argue over who really got them…and I know damn well I got them, it was like shooting ducks in a shooting gallery…all spaced and running...you know to the left and right, but we never did get that argument settled. (2:31:01) Okay, so you got the two Germans, somebody did, the other two run away. Did you go in, is that is when you found out that your best friend was in there? No…I didn‟t know that. I just figured that I was out there all by myself with one man and if they got four they got more…(laughing)…so I pulled back and while I was there, Major Allen says….”Sefton, take some men then and go take that chateau over there…that building.” And so I got a machine gun team and I think I had a total of four others…or six. So we go over there �without any difficulty. We did get shot at just as we were getting there, but we shot the lock off the back door. We sat the machine gun up behind the picket fence because the road out of Basse Addeville came like this and right in front of that driveway, up this hill ..the Germans were holding and the machine gunner would lay there and try to pick them off as the came across the road (laughing) So Joe Newman and I went in the house and we were going to search it…it‟s a three story thing you know and it‟s big...we would kick open the door and jump in like this..and both of us finally became so silly…we got to the top floor, I says, “Joe, you go that way and I go this way.” …jumping into empty rooms and obviously by that time if there had been any Germans there, they would have been shooting at us. All of a sudden, Joe is down to the far end and I hear this babble of voices and he says, “lieutenant, come hear a minute!” and here was the whole family in one bedroom saying… “me so bio!”… “me sa beo!” …..you know….all huddled up in that one bedroom. The only one that came downstairs with us was the grandmother and she came down and sat in the kitchen and made tea for us (laughing)…….we were only in there about hour and some of the people upstairs had come down and some that came down and said, Newman‟s been shot. Well…Joe had leaned out a window. I don‟t know whether it was one of our people who had shot him or one of the German‟s did. He came down and had been hit through the shoulder. It had taken a big chuck out of his shoulder blade…bleeding like a stuck pig, and so we got him down and I managed to get his own first aid kit on him. Now I got morphine…you know and I am squeezing it and squeezing it…and he looks at me….and says, “Lieutenant, did your break the seal?” …(laughing)…which of course I had, so I broke the seal but I had also sent a runner across to get an aid man…there was a wounded man over here. And the runner comes back across and they didn‟t use the ditch we did, they just ran across that and just as they got to the out building right next to the drive way….the officer, had chips of that building flying but they got in and then the one guy happened to have a Tommy gun and he jumps out of a ditch by the house and starts shooting at the Germans with fast fire. The surgeon goes flat in the middle of the ground in the driveway (laughing)….. But they both got out and they both got back. They put a bandage on him but left him there. They didn‟t have a place to put him over there. (2:34:20) Bill, just quickly…we had talked a little earlier about the strategy of what you were supposed to take…you‟re supposed to take the lock…you were supposed to take…was there any talk about your objectives at that time or… Yeah…because La Barquette was right above that lock and Colonel Johnson had already been down and taken it. In fact he came up there and ordered Allen to bring the men down. Allen says, “you know, if the German thinks this high ground is looking down your throat…as long as we‟re here, the locks are safer since we are down there. But Johnson still ordered him to come to the locks. In the meantime, Ballard had ordered or battalion commander to bring the battalion over. Instead of attacking Saint-Côme-du-Mont…..Ballard, his troops had seen Germans behind him you know short of Saint-Côme-du-Mont, and he didn‟t really feel…that with twenty percent of the battalion he could attack Saint-Côme-du-Mont, which was a pretty sizeable town and leave his rear open. So he was trying to wipe out Angoville-au-Plain and he was pretty heavily engaged when Johnson wants him to come down there and he said I am heavily engaged. Well, �Johnson got pretty ticked off with the battalion commander refusing his orders so Ballard did send him a tool to find him a way. They took the same route I had….and came back and (laughing) said you can‟t do that. You can‟t take a battalion through there (laughing)…but there was bad feelings between Johnson and Ballard until Johnson finally got killed in Holland. But Ballard was dead right, he was doing the only thing that he could do. But the locks at La Barquette were taken, but the two foot bridges beyond it, we couldn‟t, were too tightly held. We knew they were supposed to be taken, but we couldn‟t get down to them there. (2:36:07) You see I guess what I am trying to get across is that when you talk about it from moment to moment….you don‟t get the sense of the strategy but you were actually attempting to accomplish the original strategy of why you were there. Well, a whole lot of the quote strategy unquote from “H” hour of D-Day…you know, the day we jumped until dawn, we just tried to find each other. That was the division commander, General Taylor….It was about twenty minutes before he found a single man…when they were scattered that far apart, “hell” your strategy….there was no strategy…lets gets some friends together for this party (laughing) The battalion commander knew what the strategy was but he knew he had to attack the ones from the rear before he could attack that and Colonel Johnson was the only one that knew we had to have the locks and then the rest of the force…which was supposed to be down there. The First Battalion was supposed to be down to help him to go take those two bridges and across the Douve River so the Germans couldn‟t come a crossed and use them against us. But on the part of the troops, there is hardly ever any grand strategy (laughing)…..what the guys are going to do…that is your objective and that is the strategy to take that objective. (2:37:29) So now…this is what period of time of day was it? Is it reaching night fall… It is getting toward sundown and I am over in that château with the wounded man and a runner comes across and says that “Major Allen said we are pulling back to the locks at La Barquette. Pull out.” Well, I guess the doctor was still working on my man, and I said to the runner, go back and tell him to give me some time. I got to get this wounded man out of here. Well, it might have been a half hour later, I looked through my binoculars that were on the floor and nobody was in that village, and furthermore the Germans should be coming down the hill. So I had the machine gun and all the guys, there‟s this little stone house…the stone wall around the house and told them to get up there and “open up with everything you got”….and then we tried to put Joe on a blanket and he broke right through it and lands on the ground (laughing)…we tried a fireman‟s carry and that didn‟t work….(laughing)…I still had a lead man with me. Finally I through him over my shoulder, the “A” man went along with me holding the plasma bottle…and that is how we got out of there, went straight back, got behind that same hedgerow that we had been behind, we got into the town, and I sent a scout up and said “see what was up there.” He went up and came back and said that “Father Sam was up there with a bunch of wounded men but the Germans are coming in the other edge of town.” I said, “Joe, I don‟t know where the regiment has gone, and we got to find them.” I said, “we will take you with us if you want or you �can stay here.” We had a blanket wrapped around him. He was already in semi-shock so he said, “I‟ll stay here.” So he went up and joined Father Sam and we follow the regiment by the gas masks and other stuff they had thrown away down to the locks….(laughing). A blind man could have almost followed them by stepping (laughing) on them. (2:39:28) Almost like Hansel and Gretel kind of thing….. Oh yeah …all the way down and by the time we had got there it was pitch dark and I almost stumbled into the foxhole and…guess who??? My buddy McNulty that had been in that house…so I share his foxhole with him. (2:39:43) Is that when you found out about the incident at the château….you talked about it right there. Yeah…yeah...the incident about the house…..with the Germans…yeah because I hadn‟t seen that before that. He had come back in. He had gotten out of there. Apparently he had followed me back in to where I had come from in Basse Addeville, about the time Allen sent me over to that Château so we never made any connection at all during the daylight. (2:40:08) So night falls…what happens? Okay…we‟re down in the locks…that is where I am. The battalion is getting dug in for the night and getting ready for the assault with the 506 in front of 327 on Saint-Côme-du-Mont the next day. On D+2 actually, it was two days later, but Joe Newman did have an experience…..see Father Sam had fourteen wounded men, two of them had head wounds and were out of their heads so he put them in a separate place and the other twelve men laid across. Two young Germans came to the door with schmeissers and burp guns (MP-40), and he‟s pointing to his cross and saying, “priestie…priestie”…you know….they just shoved him aside and Joe was laying on the ground and he said, they came in and they cocked those schmeissers and all I could think was…which end are they going to start at….He said, I was right in the middle (laughing)……it didn‟t make any difference, but….and a German sergeant came up and kicked them out of there. And the next day when they did counter-attack, the only part of that building that caved was the place with the two guys with the head wounds and the rest of them all survived. I understand they got a Distinguished Service Cross for that. He was one “hell of a soldier!”…I tell you. He really was. (2:41:39) So, we are down by the locks and it is night…right? Yeah…and at dawn we had parapet throw up, you know and…….20mm shells bouncing off of it from over near the causeway where it comes to Carentan…..Max stuck his head up…pulled it back and said, “Bill, this La Belle France is not so bleeping lovely…(laughing)” �The really interesting thing about that being there…we had a couple of hundred men there, and you know that I was on this side of thing and Carentan was above the high ground over here and they see a whole bunch of people coming up through the low lands, and they couldn‟t tell from a distance whether they were friend or foe…you know. Finally they determined they were a battalion of German paratroopers who had come off the beach and were now trying to get…by the high ground…and get up to Carentan, and so Johnson heavily reinforced that side, and kept everybody down and McNulty and I were on the other side you know. He didn‟t dare take everybody from everywhere, and they blundered right into us. We ended up killing about 150 and capturing 350…you know. We told them they were surrounded, you know…. You could hear some of those guys yelling, “kamerad!” and the battalion commander realized that …(laughing) that we were outnumbered …and almost out of ammunition…(laughing). The German battalion commander was too late and some of the German artillery apparently mistook them for some of us and they shelled and killed our regimental adjudicate and a bunch of other people. Mostly they killed their own troops. (2:43:26) Where were these troops now…. These were people your age or older The Germans? The German paratroopers in particular were also elite troops. Now later on we ran into old men and boys and the Germans break divisions according to missions. The Germans that were defending Omaha Beach itself, in the fortifications were mostly older people and a lot of them were Russians or people that had opted for the German Army. Then they had the assault divisions and those were their SS Divisions so they were mostly young and very aggressive. Then of course they had their Panzer Divisions and they were always aggressive. Their tankers were almost always aggressive. The regular Army were Wehrmacht themselves. Compared to the SS, were gentlemen. I mean they pretty well obeyed the Geneva Rules of conduct, whereas the SS were “no holds barred”. So what we were up against there with the fighting the German paratroopers, they weren‟t much older than we were. The SS we fought that the men were young, but the others we captured a lot of them. They were just sick and tired of the war there. They were in their fifties or something….(laughing). (2:44:43) Alright. So the German fire is coming in and it is killing a lot of their own troops as well as some of ours? Yes this was the artillery fire from Carentan now because they have observations there on the high ground and they can see us, they can see all these people milling around and they can‟t distinguish either, but that fire did kill the Captain McReynolds that was herding these people together and some of our other men. But by the time two days later, we still hadn‟t taken the footbridges down there, but we were sent back. They didn‟t need anyone to guard the locks anymore, that was taken care of so they sent back to…I had talked to my battalion commander on the radio that first day, D+1, the second day we were there and asked him how…..because he had orders to come over there at that time….and I said, “how long to you estimate?” “Estimate two hours he says” (laughing) . But I knew he was there and he was coming so there was place else for me to go except wait it out. But then on that D+3 we rejoined the second battalion and �they were going to be marched back into reserve into that little village, and McNulty‟s platoon was leading the column and I was up there walking with him. We spent the time yacking and trading memories. We walked right by the road we were supposed to turn right, and ended up at “dead man‟s” corner. “Dead man‟s Corner was a highway that went down the main causeway across to Carentan. It was called “dead man‟s corner” because there was a light American tank there with a hole blown through it, and the commander still sticking out of the turret, and it was a very hot spot. It was very hot fighting on D+3. So meanwhile the battalion commander had reached a turning point and had sent a runner up, said you guys missed it and wanted us to turnaround and come back, but “Mac” and I were sitting in this ditch on this side of the road and the Germans are way up there and all of a sudden a bunch of skirmishing down the flat below us with the Germans. A little fire-fighting going on. We just slumped down the ditches, we all see leaned back like this you know. A round, not a spit round, a named round had buried itself right between our heads (laughing) obviously …well laid. We slumped down and the Sergeant goes across the road and lays on the other embankment and he studies things with is field glasses. He says, “I see him!”….”I see him!”…he is in that house down there. The ones that the guys were attacking. “He is in the window on the second floor!” So I picked up an „03 rifle, a Springfield, which are much more accurate than the M1, and so I went over and looked to be about 500 yards so I set the sight. I can hardly see the “damn” window you know, but I take a bead on it. I said, “let me know when he is up there again!” He says, “there he is!” so I squeeze off a round. He says, “you got him!!….you got him!!” I might‟ve hit him, I don‟t know (laughing) ….but that would‟ve been a phenomenal shot with a rifle you never zero‟d in, (laughing) but the troops were all cheering then and who was I (laughing) not to let them enjoy what they thought was a moment of victory (laughing)…….. (2:48:08) So we did go back into reserve after that, and then we did on D+6 attack Carentan and that was another one of my exciting experiences because our battalion was supposed to start the attack a crossed the flood bottom, and we even had rubber boats to do it in, and mortar shells were sticking up big plumes and stuff like this. We were getting wounded, and I was with the battalion commander and the command group about 100 yards behind and Carentan is on my left…only a couple of yards away, and I thought the least I could do is go make sure there are no enemy over there to have us enfiladed on the flank so I took my little three or four guys and found that there was a bridge that was blown, but it was across this canal and if you could jump six feet, you could jump one portion of the other …easy…not even that…maybe four feet and it sloped down toward each other. So we went a crossed and we went into the town and we went down to the railroad stations and threw some grenades into a bunch of wires (laughing) thinking that might‟ve done some good and now we are going down the main streets looking for snipers….getting further away from the battalion. We are going down like this and all of a sudden the side ground floor level window opens, and I whip around to shoot and out comes this young French mother with a snotty nosed two year old baby . (laughing..) holds him up to kiss me on the cheek (laughing)……and behind us suddenly this peg legged, WWI vintage Frenchmen, stomping along and singing in a broke voice, “It is a long way to Tipperary!” (laughing)….and drunker by the minute. We came around the corner then and there was the 506. They had come in from the other way. So I went back and wondered if the battalion was still pinned down and I flopped down by the battalion commander…..now this shows how stupid a �“green” lieutenant and all of us were green…and I flopped down and said, “hey you know colonel! …there is a bridge right over there we could cross.” He says, “why don‟t you show me where it is then.”…(.laughing) and all the battalion got up and leaped a crossed that bridge and went over to attack the high ground, and took la Billonnerie, a part of Carentan but a village called la Billonnerie and that‟s where we ended up for quite a while. We beat off a very heavy attack by German SS groups that came in like there were going to surrender and then dropped to the ground and started firing, and that is pretty much…..well…we held that for about ……we held that position until the 2nd Armor broke through and then we followed them for another three miles. Dug into one end of a valley and the Germans had the other. That was just purely static defense. We sent out patrols. They did have one house that stuck up …it was a two-story house…between us and I told the battalion commander that I wanted to take a patrol out and see if we could chase any of the Germans out of it. He says, “sure! Ask…get some volunteers!” and I did. I says, “who wants to go.” I had about twenty five geranimos just like that…(laughing) so we go over there and there aren‟t any Germans there. They evaporated when they saw us coming. But all the entrances into that house…all the doors and windows were on the German side. We were looking to one side and the backend and there was no way of getting in. And if you went around and got in, and if they decided to retake it. There would be no way of getting out. So I sent back for a demolition crew, and down comes Jesse Tidwell…the regimental crew that was assigned to the battalion carrying a footlocker. I says, “what do you want?” I said, “I want a mouse hole blown in the back of that little wall there so that we can crawl in and out.” “okay!”…he drops the footlocker up against it. I says,“What is that Jesse?” He says, “This is my charge!”…..I says, “It‟s kind of heavy isn‟t it?” He says, “Well, it is a brick house.” He pulled a wire and a little wisp of smoke started going up and Jesse and his people take off like a bunch of rabbits going over the hedgerow (laughing) and I look up and there was patrols strung all around that. And I was lying about fifty yards away watching it. All of a sudden there is this blast, this flash…and I am looking up and there is timbers…you know…going up and up and up….(laughing)…and I‟m thinking, they‟re going to come down and down and down….(laughing) fortunately, nobody got hit with anything bigger than maybe a walnut. The entire back of the house was gone. The two sides only came halfway back to where it was and the front was pretty well intact. When I drove by there in 1978 they had even torn that down (laughing) the last real combat episode The battalion commander thought I had found a booby-trapped German ammunition dump from where he was (laughing)… …and you only wanted a mouse hole….(laughing). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SeftonG0738V1 Title A name given to the resource Sefton, George William (Interview transcript and video, 1 of 2), 2003 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-09-18 Description An account of the resource George William "Bill" Sefton was born in 1922 in Anderson, Indiana. Prior to the war he was taking classes at Ball State Teacher's College. He enlisted in the Army shortly after the war started, trained as an officer and served briefly with the 131st Infantry Regiment guarding the Soo Locks in northern Michigan before being accepted for paratrooper training. He went to Camp Taccoa, Georgia and began training with the 501st Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. He went with his unit to England and jumped into Normandy on D-Day. He served with his unit in Normandy until they withdrew to prepare for Operation Marked Garden. He made his second jump as part of that operation in September, and served with his unit in the Netherlands until they were withdrawn in Novermber, and then went to Bastogne, Belgium in December 1944 to fight back against the German advance during the Battle of the Bulge. After the fighting at Bastogne, his unit moved to the Alsace-Lorraine region and on into Germany. With the war over he was transferred to the 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division where he served with them in France as the athletics officer and club officer (in charge of athletic supplies, and officers' club supplies) for his unit. At the end of the war he met his wife who was an Army nurse at the time. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sefton, George William Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/747cbbee0058a38afc97c0a0d9b6b380.mp4 68dc50e551c6130c92b8f3f3ece34651 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/76e297ca2ee85b67950a6313836a5ae8.pdf d14ce15937d4f3c67e58bdb54365dbb7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project George William “Bill” Sefton World War II Part 2 Interview length: 55 minutes 36 seconds Tape length 1 hour 57 minutes 26 seconds Interview repeats after the 00:55:36 mark (00:00:09) End of Operation Market Garden -He and the rest of his unit served under British General Montgomery for seventy two days -It was supposed to be a three day mission in Holland -The unit returned to Mourmelon, France to regroup and get replacements -They had lost thirty percent of their unit’s forces in Holland -After returning troops started getting to go to Paris for R&R in December 1944 -They got back to France in November 1944 -Spent three weeks in Mourmelon (00:01:38) Beginning of Action in Bastogne -In December 1944 the unit was alerted to go to Bastogne, Belgium -They had been told they wouldn’t see action until they crossed the Rhine -He had no idea where Bastogne even was -He was loaded onto a cattle truck with fifty nine other soldiers -Even the regiment’s band insisted that they be placed in combat roles -They arrived at Bastogne at 3 AM -He got two hours of sleep, sleeping in the mud -They were short on supplies -The one saving grace was that the weather was still mild -His unit crossed the line of departure (LD) at 6 AM -Their mission was to go into Bastogne and join the 9th Armored Division -They were trapped in a valley by Germans and needed help out -When they arrived in Bastogne 1st Battalion Headquarters was pulling out -They wound up running into an advancing Panzer Division -They engaged the Germans at the villages of Neffe and Bizory near Bastogne -His company, D Company, was third in line in the attack -They were able to eventually push the Germans back and retake the area (00:07:58) Promotion and Continuing Action in Bastogne -After his unit’s executive officer (XO) was wounded he was made the new executive officer -The next day their medical unit was captured which only hampered things further -The old XO was able to be evacuated to the U.S. and survived -The colonel of the 9th Armored Division arrived with an entourage of armored vehicles -He, Bill, directed him to go to into the town of Bastogne -The armored vehicles were too large of a target and compromised their position -The next move was for him to take a squad out and to lay down landmines -As they began to move out they received fire from a German railroad gun -Long distance, high powered artillery piece situated on railroads -One man was wounded, but was able to make his way back to their lines �-Dawn began to break and they were forced to abandon the mission and go back -As they approached their company’s line an American machine gun began firing -Bill identified that they were Americans and the firing stopped (00:15:22) Aiding the 506th Infantry Regiment -The 506th was on their left and had been hit pretty hard by the Germans in Noville -The next move then was to help take the pressure off of the 506th -D Company was ordered to pull back three miles and join A Company -The next move was to attack a German position in a pine grove -At dawn they sent out a reconnaissance patrol to find the railroad tracks and look for Germans -The recon patrol found the wrong set of tracks and said the area was clear -They started down a road and got to a nearby railroad station which was their destination -They saw unknown contacts in the distance and another patrol was sent out -Upon arriving at the train station a German opened fire on them -They moved to a better position and returned fire on him, wounding him in the process -The German soldier was captured and looked to be only sixteen years old -From their new position they could see another German soldier digging a foxhole -The German soldier looked old and weary -Bill decided not to shoot him, because he didn’t want to -They created a machine gun position and held it until they were ordered to take Jack’s Woods -Over the next few days they would routinely take artillery fire at dawn -Subsisted on two meals a day -A pancake in the morning and stew in the evening (00:23:23) Pushing the Germans away from Bastogne -They held their machine gun position until General Patton’s forces arrived -As they mounted the offensive they worked with local farmers for various tasks -As more of Patton’s troops arrived the Germans began to fight more tenaciously -Once Patton’s troops arrived they began to move into Jack’s Wood outside of Bastogne -They had to move through the woods on foot -No visibility due to heavy fog -Once they were well into the woods German tanks attacked them on the flank -On top of that they began to receive mortar fire as well -Due to perfect timing he was able to escape the barrage unscathed -Another soldier fell on top of him and both of them escaped injury -At the end of the fighting in Jack’s Wood two U.S. soldiers were killed -One German soldier was wounded in the woods -A U.S. soldier killed him and put him out of his misery -When they moved into Bastogne they were surrounded by Germans -This was no issue for the paratroopers since they were accustomed to being surrounded -At the end of the fighting he only had nineteen men (out of forty) left in his command (00:30:51) Moving into Alsace-Lorraine -After Bastogne, D Company was moved to Alsace-Lorraine to stop Himmler’s advance -Himmler was the commander for all of the German SS soldiers -When they arrived the 42nd Division was already pushing across the Moder River -He remembers arriving at night and going into a barn to sleep -Tucked himself into his sleeping bag and fell asleep in a pile of hay -They would go to the frontline for six days, and then return to a nearby town for three days �-At some point the snow started to melt which filled their foxholes with melted snow -This meant that they had to dig into frozen ground to establish new defensive positions -They had had to dig all night to create a substantial enough foxhole -Used bundles of wood and local rutabagas to help fortify their position -At noon the next day the Germans brought up a self-propelled artillery piece and began firing -A self-propelled artillery piece is similar to a tank, but with an artillery cannon instead -Their position took twelve hits and on the thirteenth hit a paratrooper was hit -By the time they reached him he had already died -He had been killed by the last shot that the Germans fired on their position -This was the last major action that they saw (00:38:02) Returning to France -With the Battle of the Bulge finally over his unit returned again to Mourmelon, France -Their next missions were scheduled to be drops into prisoner of war camps to liberate them -This was in the event that SS forces began to slaughter Allied prisoners of war (00:38:35) Communication in the War -His job as a superior officer was to censor outgoing mail -He had to look for any sensitive information that might be in letters -This included their location, their strength, and where they were going next -It was an unenjoyable task for officers -Either had to black out portions of text, or physically cut out the text (00:40:33) End of the War -Word came down through their radio network that Germany had surrendered -There were no major celebrations on Victory in Europe Day (May 8, 1945) -They all knew that they were most likely going to wind up in the Pacific -Japan was still fighting and they knew an invasion would likely involve them -They moved onto Berchtesgaden, Germany -Location of Hitler’s “Eagle’s Nest” -They stayed there for about one week -From Germany they moved down to Austria -They were right across from the Russian lines -Men started to get sent home because they had enough “points” -Combat experience and length of service equaled a certain amount of “points” -You needed 85 points if enlisted, 80 points if an officer (00:42:13) Transfer to the 506th Infantry Regiment -He was transferred to the 506th Infantry Regiment after Austria -“Band of Brothers” (HBO miniseries) is centered on E Company of the 506th -Upon transfer to the 506th he was made the athletics officer and the club officer for his unit -This meant he was in charge of athletic supplies and officers’ club supplies -Attached to him was their unit’s French interpreter, George, who became their bartender -Bill eventually helped George immigrate to the United States -At one point they needed softball supplies, so they “acquired” them from the Air Force -While he was in France he met his wife who was a nurse -She was later transferred to the Philippines, so they communicated through letters -Having one of her letters on hand helped carry out a ruse to “acquire” those supplies -At one point Colonel Sink came to inspect the supplies that they had -He was astounded, and concerned, at the amount of athletic supplies they had �-Bill reassured him that the truck he used had been covered in mud -Thus, it was completely untraceable -Later on they needed more officers’ club supplies, specifically alcohol -George took him to Brussels to talk to a black-market liquor supplier -They were eventually able to negotiate an alcohol supply (00:50:18) Going Home -He eventually got orders to go home -George set out to help throw Bill a going away party -In exchange for George’s help he took George to the American Embassy in Paris -The plan was to get him a travel visa so that George could immigrate to the U.S. -When they arrived there was a swarm of French civilians looking to get visas as well -Bill took George directly to the ambassador and got George his papers -For Bill’s party George got nine trucks filled with civilians, and plenty of girls -On top of the guests George also provided a massive amount of clams and alcohol -After the party the city of Paris requested that U.S. soldiers rent hotel rooms next time -The troops and French girls had occupied flowerbeds instead of hotel rooms -When he returned to his hometown of Anderson, Indiana he went to an immigration center -Insured that George would be able to make it easily into the United States � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SeftonG0738V2 Title A name given to the resource Sefton, George William (Interview outline and video, 2 of 2), 2003 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003 Description An account of the resource George William "Bill" Sefton was born in 1922 in Anderson, Indiana. Prior to the war he was taking classes at Ball State Teacher's College. He enlisted in the Army shortly after the war started, trained as an officer and served briefly with the 131st Infantry Regiment guarding the Soo Locks in northern Michigan before being accepted for paratrooper training. He went to Camp Taccoa, Georgia and began training with the 501st Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. He went with his unit to England and jumped into Normandy on D-Day. He served with his unit in Normandy until they withdrew to prepare for Operation Marked Garden. He made his second jump as part of that operation in September, and served with his unit in the Netherlands until they were withdrawn in Novermber, and then went to Bastogne, Belgium in December 1944 to fight back against the German advance during the Battle of the Bulge. After the fighting at Bastogne, his unit moved to the Alsace-Lorraine region and on into Germany. With the war over he was transferred to the 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division where he served with them in France as the athletics officer and club officer (in charge of athletic supplies, and officers' club supplies) for his unit. At the end of the war he met his wife who was an Army nurse at the time. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sefton, George William Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b2ac3e2f58429dd65249f83f7650bc3.m4v d0c4b5e47a89528cb51102695efe1b94 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ea8dd117f5287f4588fb47968a81c2ba.pdf 3bbd3c657a0d85c0c68e939b94e001ce PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans‟ History Project Interviewee‟s Name: Mary B. Sefton Name of War: Vietnam War Length of Interview: (01:28:10) (00:01) “Let‟s begin with your name, where and when were you born?” (00:03) “My name is Mary Beth Sefton. I was born May 3rd, 1947 in Anderson, Indiana.” (00:04) “What was your early schooling like?” (00:05) “Very Catholic. St. Thomas Church. Thomas the Apostle Church and School, Grand Rapids, Michigan and it was not the traditional scary nuns. Or maybe I just didn‟t get the scary ones.” (00:21) ”I had the scary nuns!” (00:23) “You got my share then. I got a very good grounding in things that aren‟t taught in schools today like diagramming sentences so that you recognize when there are words hanging off the ends of things. ” (00:36) “Wow! Early on, through catholic school. Did you then go into catholic high school?” (00:44) “I went to a catholic convent boarding school. St. Mary‟s in South Bend, IN, which is now defunct. But it‟s not, as my daughter thought for quite a number of years, a convict boarding school.” (00:58) “What was that experience like?” (00:01:02) That was very interesting. I wouldn‟t trade it for anything….there are a lot of things in my life that I would not trade for anything. That is one of them. I don‟t know that I would send my daughter there but she‟s an entirely different person than I am.” (00:01:14) “Now, you were the first of what would eventually be ten children in this family.” (00:01:19) “Yes.” �(00:01:20) “During this period of time, were you the only child, or did another child come along fairly quickly?” (00:01:27) “I had about eighteen months.” (00:01:28) “Okay. Eighteen months of being the only child.” (00:01:30) “Something like that!” (00:01:35) “The high school experience and the boarding school, was there any thinking on your part during that time that you would want to get into the military, or be involved in the military at all?” (00:01:47) ”The military had always been part of the family, part of the history. Both of my parents were involved in World War II, Dad as a paratrooper, Mom as a nurse, so I had a lot of advantages in that I never thought of the military as a big, green machine that would eat me alive. It was something that my parents had done and had survived and had pretty positive memories of that they met in France. From then on, the war was a great rosy glow.” (00:02:22) “I obviously know the story, but I‟m trying to get to though is that, I know of my own experience in high school that I had little if any understanding what my father did during World War II and I had some inkling of what my mother was doing. Were you aware, I‟ve been to your parents‟ house, so I know you are surrounded by the memorabilia and pictures. Were you aware through high school of what they had done? Your dad was a paramedic trooper or any of that?” (00:02:53) “Pretty much so. My first contact with military memorabilia was stepping on my mother‟s nurse‟s pin. In fact I learned about a lot then, I learned about tetanus, but it was only that they met in 1945, they were married in 1946, I was born in 1947. This was two years and only about a year after they came back, I was born so it wasn‟t really memorabilia, it was still stuff that they had. So they had the uniforms. I remember them stretching them out on the clothesline to air them out, but there weren‟t – when you say memorabilia, I think of the shadow boxes with the medals and things. They weren‟t in medals, they were in the drawer that they‟d brought „em back in and we also had a long stream of friends who would drop by. Friends of Dad‟s who would happen to be in town, my mother‟s friend Barbie would turn up. They were pretty much in constant contact, so it was not; it wasn‟t something that happened „out there,‟ this was part of what they had done. So it was never separate.” �(00:04:17) “Yeah, that makes sense to me because I grew up in an airlines atmosphere, so pilots were coming over and people like that so, even as a child, you can kind of grasp, „oh, that‟s what they do.‟ „These are their friends and whatnot.‟ When was it that you thought about getting in to the military? Or did nursing come first and then military or how did that evolve?” (00:04:40) “It was pretty casual, actually. I had happened to…Dad was talking about doing something, his advertising agency was talking about doing something overseas, looking at languages and I‟d had French and Spanish and Latin and he had such high hopes for that but somehow I drifted into nursing. I‟d been to one year to Aquinas College here in Grand Rapids and then I was just, I can‟t say that there was any burning vocational „I will be a nurse or I will curl up in a ball and die.‟ It was just kind of a pull. So I went to school in Sioux City, Iowa and I‟d started the paperwork to get into the Army while I was here in Michigan and I finished the paperwork and was sworn in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.” (00:05:41) “I don‟t want to get ahead of ourselves.” (00:05:43) “Okay.” (00:05:45) “The Vietnam war was already going on by this time?” (00:05:47) “Yes.” (00:05:50) “I don‟t want to ask a dumb question, but were you aware that there was a war going on?” (00:05:55) “Yes. I was quite aware that there was a war on.” (00:05:57) ”Okay.” (00:05:59) “But again, I had never, I didn‟t have the scary concept of war that everybody who goes to war will die since both of my parents had made it through quite nicely. It was something that I can articulate it a little bit better now than I could then. That I had been given so much that it would be nice to give a little bit back.” (00:06:28) “In terms of the country?” (00:06:30) “In terms of the country, family, and it seemed like a nice way to do it.” �(00:06:38) “You know I have been honored to be a guest at your parents‟ home during Thanksgiving and granted there was a different atmosphere then because you didn‟t have all the kids and grandkids and everything else all together in one place.” (00:06:52) “Not too much!” (00:06:54) “Okay. There is a sense of the environment itself. It‟s very caring. It‟s very giving and so when you say, „giving back to family, giving back to country‟ as soon as you said that, it clicked.” (00:07:07) “Well, it‟s like in appreciation of everything my parents have given me and appreciation of how much I get from my family and how much support I‟ve gotten all my life.” (00:07:24) ”This is a little more trickier question. Did you have any opinions and keep in mind that I remember when I was eighteen years old and did you have any opinions about Vietnam at that time? Because you are getting inundated with newspapers stuff and radio and TV and all that. Was there any…focused on the nursing part and if it happened to be in Vietnam, you‟d go, it doesn‟t matter? If you were stationed in Germany, that would be okay, too. Or was there any kind of view at that early age of what was going on in Vietnam?” (00:07:59) “I figured war was war and they‟d need nurses. I didn‟t, as far as political…” (00:08:07) “Yeah. Just overall as a teenager, you know, what was your impression?” (00:08:10) “I was an old teenager.” (00:08:13) ”What does that mean?” (00:08:18) “I just felt older than most of the people my age, partly because being the oldest of ten kids you see things a little bit differently and you‟re…responsibility comes into it a lot.” (00:08:34) “Are you telling me that they actually relied upon you to help out? I thought she kind of controlled the whole thing by herself.” (00:08:40) “Very well, too. But when she said, „Take care of the kids,‟ you take care of the kids.” �(00:08:48) “I know, she‟s told me to do things and for some reason, I do it automatically.” (00:08:52) “This is a good move. Always a good move.” (00:08:56) “Let‟s keep in this period here, where you are making a decision about going into the military. Did you come to this decision, you said kind of gradually, kind of moved towards that. Was there any discussion with Mom and Dad about what you wanted to do?” (00:09:13) “There was discussion. They were very careful not to push me into…their attitude was pretty much „find something that you really like and go ahead and do it.‟ There was no „This is a good thing. There‟s Army and there‟s Navy and there‟s this.‟ It was pretty much my decision, but again, I had the positive role models, so it wasn‟t a tough you know, going against the family business, sort of decision.” (00:09:50) “With Beth being not only an experienced nurse, but a nurse who was literally treating battle casualties, was there any discussion with her? Did she take you aside privately and say, „Now. Mary Beth, this is what you‟ll have to do.‟” (00:10:06) “No, but it was never a secret that she‟d been in the O.R. and in fact, I remember sitting in the bathtub when I was six or eight, something like that and I‟d skinned my knee and she was explaining to me, how, „Well, sweetie, this will heal up nicely, but if they had to take your, you know, if something really bad had happened to your knee and they would have to take your whole leg off, this is where the little flap would go and then the skin would cover up and they would stitch it there and it would be nice and smooth.‟ That‟s cool.” (00:10:43) “Lessons I learned in my bathtub at six.” (00:10:48) “Serve you well all your life. You know perfectly well that a skinned knee is not so bad. You can fix it and my mom knows how to make it smooth so it would work.” (00:10:58) “So, once the decision was made, why Army?” (00:11:06) “Grandad was Army, Dad was Army, Mom was Army, my brother was Army. It seemed familiar. Ugliest uniforms. The shortest commitment was two years. I thought that it doesn‟t matter what I do for the next two years, those years are still going to go by. I wanted to get out. I wanted to see what was going on in the world. I did not necessarily want to do it solo. The Army looked like a nice framework. As I said, I had never gotten the impression that �the Army was a giant machine that would eat me alive. So it seemed like I could do that.” (00:11:47) “So what was the, first of all, what was the date?” (00:11:52) “1968.” (00:11:53) “Now, ‟68 in this country was a turbulent time. There‟s everything from Woodstock going on to the man on the moon and once again, I realize that you are a teenager, albeit an older teenager.” (00:12:11) “I was in Sioux City, Iowa. Not quite so turbulent.” (00:12:14) “Okay. But the newspapers, the T.V.” (00:12:18) ”We had those in Iowa.” (00:12:21) “I was in Taiwan, okay?” (00:12:23) “A little rougher for you. A little more turbulent.” (00:12:26) “I still got the album of Woodstock and I knew that there was anti-war. There was all kinds of things going on. We had an r & r station, so I was actually meeting G.I.s who were like two years older than I was. I didn‟t really grasp it all. I‟m just wondering if you had any kind of idea what you were about to get into if you did have to go to Vietnam.” (00:12:49) “I was expecting it to be…you know, I‟d seen the news reels every night, seen the jungle in black and white and the dramatic stuff, but again I had the backlog of the stories my mom and dad would tell me and I could see that yes, this is a very flashy piece of news, but I could also understand that there was a lot of slack time behind that and that we weren‟t getting to see the slack time, the down time. I did not get into the „should we be there? Should we not be there? What are we going to do?‟ That part of the political history or convolutions. I could track it up to a point and then thought, „eh.‟” (00:13:49) “Yeah. What was the process then once you enlisted?” (00:13:56) “I was an E-1 or E-2.” (00:13:58) “What was the actual process? You were in civilian clothes. You walk into a door. What happens? You go and say, „Hi. I want to sign up?‟” �(00:14:05) “Actually, you have to go to Detroit for that and you fill out bunches and bunches of papers.” (00:14:10) ”Okay. Did you go by yourself?” (00:14:13) “No. My sister Lori came with me. And we had to be there at 8:00, which meant we had to leave Grand Rapids about 5:00 which meant we had to be up very early. It was very foggy.” (00:14:25) “Without getting into real details though, the driving trip up with Lori, what did you talk about?” (00:14:30) ”I think we laughed most of the way. There was never the doomand-gloom what are you getting into? It was just kind of a „This is what I happen to be doing now.‟ And she was there to keep me company. It was pretty cool. Let‟s drive to Detroit. We didn‟t do that much.” (00:14:50) “Right. So you arrived there. Was there like crowds of people?” (00:14:58) ”There weren‟t a lot of females lining up so I was always a little bit separate. And it was mostly paperwork then and the swearing in….of course, I couldn‟t be sworn in to the Army Nurse Corps until I actually became a nurse, which would be after I graduated and took my state boards. They‟re picky about that sort of thing. But the entry level was an r.n. at that point. From then on, it was waiting until I graduated and I was actually sworn in in Sioux Falls, South Dakota in a blizzard. Another great drive. And I‟d gone to Sioux Falls for my physical, also, and that was tricky because I was the only female so I got a little folding screen to carry around with me and it‟s all very fascinating.” (00:15:55) “The part I‟m….I know the policy of being a nurse first, so were you in a school of nursing?” (00:16:01) “Right. St. Vincent‟s School of Nursing.” (00:16:03) “Okay.” (00:16:05) “The same one my mom went to.” (00:16:08) “Oh, really?” (00:16:11) “Yes. Didn‟t know that, did you?” �(00:16:13) “No. That sends chills down my spine.” (00:16:14) “Surprise, surprise! Well it was one of the things that made the decision a little bit easier for nursing since... Actually, I can‟t say it was legacied into anything, but my convent school was chosen because of my father‟s sister, Mary Kay, who was an absolutely delightful lady. She had gone there and Dad figured she turned out pretty well and maybe some of it would rub off on me. And then from St. Mary‟s I went to a year to Aquinas and then out to Sioux City, St. Vincent‟s where Mom had graduated. That‟s where she was from.” (00:17:01) “So you were now, the first time you were away from home, living away from home?” (00:17:06) ”Well, I lived away from home in high school.” (00:17:10) “Right. Yeah. But I mean in terms of on your own.” (00:17:12) “Right. Well, you‟re stuck in a dorm with all the rest of the students, so it‟s not quite living on your own. There was a tunnel to the hospital so that we could fill in in bad weather when no one else could get there. But, no, it was not all females. We had seven men in our class when not very many people had even one man in their class. One of them went to Vietnam and I ran into him there. We‟ll talk about that later. Leaping ahead.” (00:17:40) “How did you find nursing? In the very beginning. I mean, here you are, your mother‟s profession and obviously there‟s a lot of admiration for that. How did you find nursing? Was it enjoyable?” (00:17:51) “Handy.” (00:17:52) “What?” (00:17:52) “Handy.” (00:17:53) “Handy?” (00:17:58) “Yes. I learned a lot of things. I learned a lot from my mom that came in handy there. Pretty much everything I learned, I figured I could use all my life.” (00:18:09) “As a mother yourself?” (00:18:11) “Yes; or even on my own. It‟s nice to know that…how things work and when to go running for the doctor and when to think, „That‟s not much.‟” �(00:18:24) “So once you got through nursing then, did you find it difficult? I talk to a lot of vets and I ask that question and they kind of look at me funny but some people take on a particular task and it‟s very difficult for them. Others seem to just take to it. How did you find nursing?” (00:18:42) “I liked it. There were so many different areas in nursing. Mom worked operating room and loved it. I was very good at O.B. There was a lot of different things about it. You‟re not stuck in a rut doing just one thing. If you find an area you don‟t like, you have a really wide range that you can choose from.” (00:19:14) “Was it still challenging to you?” (00:19:16) “Oh, yes.” (00:19:19) “Okay. So there‟s…” (00:19:20) “It wasn‟t a piece of cake. I had to work at this stuff. But, I never got the feeling that I was learning something that I would never use again or something useless.” (00:19:33) ”Once you graduated from nursing school, was there a formal kind of…” (00:19:41) “Complete with the lamp. Florence Nightingale. Ducks in a row and carrying candles.” (00:19:45) “Dramatic.” (00:19:47) “Okay, dramatic.” (00:19:49) “I like drama. Candles and all that kind of stuff. Had you been issued a military uniform up to this point?” (00:19:58) “I was given an envelope when I was sworn in in Sioux Falls. I was given the envelope, a big manila envelope and they said, „You won‟t be needing any of this until after graduation.‟ So I thought, „Okay, I won‟t need any of this until after graduation and I tucked it away. I did wonder why my classmate who was also going into the Army had a nice little nurses pin that he wore but I figured that would have just been an oversight. When I opened the envelope after graduation, I found out possibly I should have opened it a little bit sooner yes, there was my little nurse‟s pin, but there was also the rules which you will �follow in nursing school one of which was „You will not go more than fifty miles outside of this nursing school without telling somebody.‟ I was sworn in maybe on a Friday in December and the following Monday I drove to Michigan. So I suppose, technically I was A.W.O.L. but no one ever came after me for it so I think I‟ve either been forgiven or…” (00:21:05) …”Well, apparently, nobody also questioned you about your pin, either.” (00:21:08) “Well, this was in the nursing school. It wouldn‟t have mattered. It was an Army pin.” (00:21:14) ”Right. Did you ever attend boot camp?” (00:21:17) “No.” (00:21:19) “So, you graduate. The Florence Nightingale, the candle, the whole bit.” (00:21:24) “It was a fake lamp, but it was a real candle.” (00:21:25) “Where did you go next?” (00:21:27) ”I went home to study for my state boards and I took my state boards in Michigan.” (00:21:31) ”You went back home as in Bill and Beth Sefton‟s house?” (00:21:34) “Yep. Grand Rapids. I was done at school. They didn‟t want me there. Once you graduate, they tend to kind of want to send you home.” (00:21:44) “What was your mom‟s reaction to your arrival after going through all of this? Was there a sense, did you feel a sense of pride on her part or was she mother henning you, saying, „Did you do this? Did you do that?‟ (00:21:57) “That came later. I don‟t want to jump ahead.” (00:22:01) “She‟s going to get mad at me for bringing this up. So you arrive back and you‟ve got the state boards. This is work now. This is study time. You‟ve got to really cram to get this stuff right otherwise if you don‟t pass…” �(00:22:13) “Actually I went to a pretty good nursing school and the state boards were not that tricky. I passed them on the first try. And apparently the Army gets word on the state boards before anyone else does because I got my phone call and the nice recruiting person in Detroit said, “Is this Lieutenant Sefton?‟ I was thinking, „Well, no‟ and then I thought „Yes, I passed.‟ Mom was very pleased. (00:22:44) “So where did you go from Michigan? Now you‟re going into the Army?” (00:22:51) “The serious Army. Although it‟s the Army Nurse Corps.” (00:22:53) “Yes. But still…” (00:22:55) “We‟re the medical corps, so it‟s not quite boot camp. Have you ever seen doctors march?” (00:22:59) “No.” (00:23:03) “Oh, it‟s priceless.” (00:23:05) “Is this a movie?” (00:23:05) “No, no, no. Doctors marching. And nurses marching. Learning to march.” (00:23:15) “No. Are they in nurses‟ uniforms when they‟re marching?” (00:23:18) “No. We got real uniforms.” (00:23:20) ”Before you get too far… you‟re in civvy clothes, you arrive where?” (00:23:28) “San Antonio. Fort Sam Houston.” (00:23:31) “This is a boot camp?” (00:23:32) “This is a basic training camp.” (00:23:36) ”Is this a big place?” (00:23:37) “It‟s a big place. It‟s Texas. It‟s a big place.” �(00:23:44) “Parade grounds. Barracks. Mess hall. Big American flag somewhere.” (00:23:45) “All that stuff.” (00:23:46) “Are there soldiers there as well as medical?” (00:23:48) “Sure, oh yeah.” (00:23:53) “So they‟re training soldiers there as well?” (00:23:55) “Yes. That‟s how I can tell which are the soldiers and which are the doctors marching.” (00:24:00) “So you arrive by bus?” (00:24:02) “Plane. Separately. Everybody trundles in and we go into a huge auditorium. Of course everybody knows in the military, short hair but being a bit of a procrastinator, I liked my hair long. I didn‟t want to chop it off yet and the nice officer who stood up there, a very lovely lady, said, „Now a lot of you have heard a lot of different things about the Army, I want you to know it‟s not all the scary stuff that you‟ve heard. For instance, don‟t cut your hair. If your hair is long, don‟t cut your hair.‟ You should have heard the screams of all the girls who‟d gone out and cut their hair the night before because they wanted some control over what it was going to look like. So, procrastiny did pay off and I got to keep my hair long. She did mention that ninety some percent of us would be going to Vietnam.” (00:25:04) “Wow.” (00:25:05) “Of course, nobody believed it. There were some who‟d volunteered to go and they went to, I want to say Fort Campbell, Kentucky, but I didn‟t go there. But it was just, „Okay.‟ And I had told my parents, as I recall, I promised I wouldn‟t volunteer for Vietnam but I figured if I got orders…” (00:25:26) “True. You‟re still not in uniform yet.” (00:25:30) “No. We get lined up.” (00:25:33) “That‟s what I want to hear about. That‟s what I want to hear about. They‟ve got a tailor from New York, right? He‟s measuring you out.” �(00:25:38) “Definitely. The wrist, the ankles, the inseam, the boots. Elegant, elegant.” (00:25:47) “All right. What happened?” (00:25:49) “We lined up like ducks in a row and trundled in and the people behind the stacks of uniforms would say, „What size are you?‟ „Roughly ten, twelve, whatever.‟ „Okay. This.‟ And we ended up with forty pounds of clothes. Now, as nurses, we were officers so we had to pay for our stuff as opposed to being issued the stuff. We got our dress uniforms and actually my dress blues came from Anna Mae Hayes who was one of the first, if not the first, female generals because she had apparently used up these dress blues and she‟d gotten a new set and it did fit as if it were tailored especially for me.” (00:26:42) “Was it recycled?” (00:26:45) “Well, hers were. It was just one of the announcements made. They said, „Would anyone be interested?‟ and people who would think, „no, no, no, I want a brand new one all my own,‟ went and bought a uniform. And I said, „How much?‟ And I don‟t remember how much, but it was a lot less and it fit beautifully and was nicely cared for. „Thank you, General.‟ And I wore it quite cheerfully.” (00:27:05) “All right so now, you‟ve got your uniforms. Where do you go from there? You‟re assigned to a barracks or what was that?” (0027:17) “Well, there were an awful lot of nurses in that particular basic training camp.” (00:27:23)“All first lieutenants?” (00:27:25) “Second. Second lieutenants, as low as you could possibly get and still be a nurse. And it was pretty crowded and back then you could not have coed barracks, even if they had room in one of the men‟s barracks. You couldn‟t put nurses, female nurses in there. So, they told us „I‟m sorry. There‟s no room for you here. You‟ll have to stay in the Sheraton in San Antonio.‟ A true heart breaker. My room had sliding glass doors. Six steps out was a small pool. Not Olympic size, just pool enough to hop out, swim around in, hop back in. The big Olympic pool was a couple hundred yards down. Hardship. Hardship tour.” (00:28:21) ”So, from there, you billeted there, then you would just go back onto base, back and forth.” (00:28:28) “The bus would come at o‟dark thirty.” �(00:28:31) “All right. What is „o‟dark thirty?‟” (00:28:33) “Very early. One of the things Dad said to me was if I was going to be in the Army, I would get to see a lot of beautiful sunrises and he was right. A lot of beautiful sunrises. Sunrises. Sunsets. All that stuff. But the bus would pick us up at o‟dark thirty and we would trundle back to Fort Sam and get in line for chow. Mess. Whatever. I did not know that you could serve fried apples for breakfast. They looked like potatoes but they were apples. You learn a whole different set of food in the Army.” (00:29:08) “And you got to eat what‟s on your plate.” (00:29:15) “Sometimes. Unless you could work a deal.” (00:29:18) “Just overall. How was the food? Was it tolerable? Was it actually good?” (00:29:24) “It was delicious.” (00:29:25) “Really?” (00:29:25) “Yes. Except for the soup. We‟ll get into that later.” (00:29:35) “What was the daily routine in the early days, I don‟t mean toward graduation, in the very early days? What was the daily routine like?” (00:29:41) “Trying to get us desperately organized. These are women, girls, from all over, different sizes, different shapes. Trying to teach them how to line up, how to wear the uniform. Just getting us lined up in a straight line was a little bit tricky.” (00:30:01) “You know in the movies, T.V. shows and all that and certainly in the number of interviews I‟ve done with veterans, the male veterans, you get the idea of boot camp sergeants screaming into your face and calling you a maggot. What was the person, the person that was in charge of you? What was their behavior?” (00:30:20) “We didn‟t have that person. Our person, if we were just upright and dressed and walking the same direction, that was pretty good. And we were neat and tidy.” (00:30:28) “Male or female?” �(00:30:30) “Both. We didn‟t have…now, I don‟t know what it was like on base, but for those of us who were bussed in from the swing area, as it were, we would go through the whole drill through the day and there were a lot of classes. You had to learn what the paperwork looked like, how to fill out the paperwork. Surprise! Surprise! What to expect….this is not just people headed for Vietnam.” (00:31:00) “Across the board.” “This is everybody, the whole Army medical everything. How to recognize the paperwork. What‟s important, how the charts go together. Where the patients come from. There was a lot of reviewing and when we got, we also got military classes like how to shoot a back azimuth we did a lot of map reading courses in the rain. I believe we had the distinction of being the last or second to last crew back but we did get back without having to bring the truck. Because the truck was stuck in the mud, but….” (00:31:37) “You know, very often the Army is criticized for its paperwork and there‟s always when you talk to people, „the paperwork‟ but in terms of medical profession it is important to recognize this piece of paper from that piece of paper. It could mean somebody‟s life that you‟re talking about.” (00:31:53) ”Yeah. They‟re touchy about that.” (00:31:56) “So this was, might be considered tedious, but at the same time, you recognized that this was important?” (00:31:57) “Yes. It might seem tedious at this point, but at some point this could be very serious.” (00:32:10) “Now, during this period of time, especially with the boot camp, whether it‟s World War II, Korea, Vietnam or whatnot, they‟re constantly at you from the morning until night. Was there down time? Was there any, obviously you went back to a hotel. I mean, was there a social life during this period of time? Or are you just so focused on what you had to do or so much homework and things like that?” (00:32:35) “There was a fair amount of social life. There was a lot of studying, but it wasn‟t harder than nursing school. It was different, it was difficult in that it was different.” (00:32:50) “Okay.” �(00:32:52) “Like stepping into a different world; trying to learn the language of that world because up to that point, we didn‟t know that military jargon. Some of us knew some of it but it was learning the new terms, learning what to call things and what not to call things.” (00:33:12) “Yes, the Army‟s notorious CINCOMPAC it‟s something, something, something and it‟s just this whole language in itself. I‟m not trying to dig here for any kind of dirt or anything like that, but were you discouraged from fraternizing with the Army males? Not just within the nurse department. Was there a statement like „You cannot go to a bar and hangout with these guys? Or go to this club?” (00:33:40) “If there was, I missed it completely.” (00:33:43) “So there was kind a camaraderie amongst your group?” (00:33:46) “Very much so and this was not only the Vietnam era, this was also the hippie era. So you had a loosening a lot of the attitudes. It was interesting, we were talking about uniforms. Once you got used to the uniform and hair pinned up, neat and tidy – uniform being a uniform length et cetera, et cetera. You looked at people not in uniform and they started to look kind of sloppy. „That‟s pretty crummy. Why don‟t you wear that with that? Straighten up a little bit. Comb that hair.‟” (00:34:33) “What kind of music were you listening to?” (00:34:35) ”Pretty much what anyone else was listening to.” (00:34:41) “Okay. This is like the rock-n-roll era.” (00:34:44) “Credence Clearwater Revival, any band that happened to be at the club, just whatever happened to be there at the time.” (00:34:52) “That‟s the same music I was listening to.” (00:34:54) “It‟s scary how universal that can me.” (00:35:00) “During the period of time, I‟m not trying to belabor this, but the news was coming back about what was going on in Vietnam. you know you can have an opinion one way or the other about how the media was skewered one way or another. You knew you were going to Vietnam at some point.” �(00:35:19) “I didn‟t know for sure because we were given choices where we wanted to go.” (00:35:25) ”Really?” (00:35:26) “Well, „Here. Write down where you want to go.‟ and then the Army would decide where you were going to go but this was the illusion of choice here. I thought, „Well, let‟s see. I‟ve never been to Colorado. I‟ve never been to California, never been to Massachusetts.‟ Sounded good to me. So I put them down. Some people, as I said, volunteered to go to Vietnam. Some people wanted to be stationed somewhere near their home. Some people wanted to be stationed anywhere but anywhere near their home.” (00:36:02) “Right. That‟s an interesting insight right there.” (00:36:03) “What?” (00:36:04) “Well, that people would choose to be closer to home or as far away from home as possible. I found that in college. What eventually happened? In terms of these choices. You wrote down these choices; what eventually happened?” (00:36:19) “Which was, I went to Fort Devens, Massachusetts, which was where the Green Berets were doing part of their winter training. You know the image of an Army nurse, usually in the orthopedic ward? There‟s some guy with his leg up in traction and the lovely young nurse bending over him, offering him sips of water. Or you sight down the ward and the nurse is there with all these young guys in various stages of brokenness? I worked obstetrics at Fort Devens. The only G.I.s, the only soldiers I saw while I was working were the husbands coming in. I‟m hoping they wouldn‟t fall over on the floor on me. But, it was, I loved working o.b. This was fine, as far as I was concerned. “ (00:37:22) “When did you find out you were going to go somewhere else?” (00:37:23) “When did I find out?” (00:37:24) “Yes.” (00:37:26) “About six or eight weeks after everyone else in Fort Devens knew it. My commanding officer, not commanding officer, chief nurse, head nurse of the o.b. unit was retiring. Captain Carpenter was moving on and me, with about a year in the Army, just under a year was now going to be the senior person in �o.b. I was good at it and didn‟t want, maybe…. Fort Devens was considered a safe place to be because no one had been sent to Vietnam from Fort Devens. At least this was the myth that they‟d tell us. Now, to me, that sounds like your number is coming up pretty fast, but I was perfectly willing to go along with it. So, I had had orders for Vietnam for about six weeks before word came back to me. All of the WACs that worked back there with me, they knew but they were very good about not telling me. I think about five nurses got orders at the same time. Some of them were very, very, very upset. One of them had gotten a deferment because she was so not thrilled with it. It was like a six-month deferment and by the time she was eligible again, she‟d only have six months left and that‟s too short a time to send you over. One of them who was married turned up pregnant so she can‟t go. And I want to say there was one other and I don‟t remember what it was, but all of the sudden I was sort of the, I hesitate to use the term „bottom of the barrel‟ but, yes, there was a definite scraping sound. So, whoever in Washington, Major Golden, or whatever said, „Yes. I know that you‟d love to have her there, but we‟re moving her.‟ And I was moving, I had been living on-post at Fort Devens and I‟d moved off to a little place called Littleton, a little winterized cottage near a lake and the owner wanted to sell, so I was moving from that cottage to a place fifteen miles on the other side of Fort Devens in Pepperell and I would load up my little Volkswagen at night and I would drive in in the daytime at Fort Devens and I‟d go to the other place and unload it and I got a phone call one morning and I was standing and looking across the ward and seeing the broom handles sticking out of my little car and this voice said, „Mary Beth?‟ Actually, what she said was, „Lieutenant Sefton. This is Colonel Quinn. I have news for you.‟ „What kind of news?‟ She said, „Vietnam.‟ My first thought was, „What‟s going on in Vietnam?‟ and „Why are you calling me?‟ „Oh, Vietnam!‟ „Oh, orders!‟ “Me.‟ Oh, suddenly all I could think was „Well, it‟s a good thing I signed the military‟ (any place around military base they have the clause in the contract, if you get orders then no penalty for breaking the lease.) So, I said, „Vietnam, when?‟ She said, „Two weeks.‟ And I thought, „Okay. That takes care of things. I don‟t have to move anything!‟ I finished out the day and I figured I would call my mom, call my parents, let „em know. This seemed worth a phone call.” (00:41:05) “Yeah.” (00:41:06) “And I called home and I got my mom on the phone and she said, as soon as she heard my voice, she said, „Oh. I have this great deal.‟ And I said, „What is that?‟ And she said (and I can‟t remember the product), „If you save up these box tops,‟ save enough of them, little coupons, „then you send them in and you get another coupon and if you get two or three (whatever it was) then you get an electric scissors.‟ And she was really pleased with this.” (00:41:36) “I can picture Beth doing this.” �(00:41:38) “No. She did. And she was really delighted with it and she already had one and so the other kids were getting, too. And it works really, really well. And I said, „Mom, how long does this take?‟ Now, Mom may have been excited about the electric scissors, but she is a smart cookie. Immediately, she said, „Why? Do you have orders? Are you going somewhere?‟” (00:41:58) “I said, „Yes. I got orders.‟ And she said, „Where are you going?‟ My throat closed up and I squeaked, „Vietnam.‟ And she said, „Oh, Mary! How wonderful!‟ I said, „Huh?‟ And she was talking about the experience, the friends I would make, how lovely it would be, how much she had enjoyed her term. She was in France and she was also in the Philippines. So, this was the best thing in the world as far as she could tell. And I‟m thinking, „Ah, Mom? Mom? Do you remember me, your first-born daughter? You looked at me and you thought I looked just like a little rose and you thought, „I‟ll never be lonely again. First born. Real bullets, Mom. They‟re shooting at people. Real bullets. And eventually she got the impression, it kind of came to her. Maybe I wasn‟t totally on the same page with her and leaping immediately and she didn‟t want me to feel bad about it so she said, „You know, your Dad, he was with a tank unit and he said they were activated but they were never sent. They didn‟t get orders. They were never sent over. And your brother Mike, he only has about six months left, or two months left (whatever it was at the time) and Billy and David, my younger brothers who are ten or twelve years younger than I am, this is pretty much going to be over by the time they‟re old enough to be in the military. You are the only one in the family that‟s going to get to go to Vietnam.‟ This is good comfort to me. So I cheered right up and said, „Okay, Mom.‟ And it wasn‟t until I came back from Vietnam that I learned that there was Vietnam training involved. When you‟re sent over, you get a few weeks focused training for Vietnam but because my orders had been held up, they decided, „She‟ll be fine.‟” (00:44:26) “Did you get a chance to talk to your dad during that phone conversation with your mom?” (00:44:31) “Can you believe….? He was working late. I assumed she told him. I never asked him. At some point, she would have mentioned it to him.” (00:44:39) “So. Those two weeks then? You were basically just packing, getting ready to go?” (00:44:42) “Packing, getting ready to go, making sure all the charts were signed. And going around and processing myself out of Fort Devens. I got a lot of really good advice, after the fact. When I told my brother that I had spent �like two days hitting like all the little places that you have to go to collect your paperwork, he said, „Why didn‟t you just give some enlisted guy five bucks to do it for you? They could have pencil whipped it in twenty minutes.‟ I said, „Well, I didn‟t know that.” (00:45:21) “Where did you go to leave to go to Vietnam? How did you get to Vietnam? I don‟t want to get too far into Vietnam yet because there‟s a question I have about your arrival that I want to get back to, but what was the process of getting from point A to point B?” (00:45:38) “From Devens, everything had been packed up and stored wherever I was taking with me, whatever, I was put on an airplane and came back and when the stewardess – we had stewardesses back then. It was a long time ago. Do you remember stewardesses?” (00:45:51) “I do.“ (00:45:56) “Good. Anyway, when she heard that I was going to Vietnam, she moved me from coach up to First Class. The first time and only time that I‟ve ever been in first class. Which I thought was…” (00:46:06) “Yeah.” (00:46:07) “….pretty nice. And I came back home and I started packing and sorting and I had a kind of list what to bring to camp. And one of them suggested that you bring a little 30 watt bulb to keep the mildew out of whatever and I was thinking, „Electricity! They‟ve got electricity.‟ Because when we were at Fort Sam, we went through this little mock up Vietnamese village. There was no running water, it was all little hooches and thatched whatever and the trench with the toilet paper sticking up on a stick next to it. This was what I was expecting when I got to Vietnam. Since the newsreels didn‟t show you running water. They showed you jungle and grubbie and mud. And I was going through my list of things and Mom would come in every so often and, „Do you think you‟ll need…I have part of my gas mask you could take with you.‟ I don‟t remember whether she ever found her musette bag or what, but it was….and I got the feeling that had it not been for, say, the other nine kids at home and my dad and the fact that she had a life, it would not have broken her heart to find herself packing her duffel bag and going back with me. But, she told me „Sunsets are beautiful. You‟ll see a lot of sunrises and sunsets.‟ She just gave me a lot of – I guess technically it‟s a lot of positive feedback. It was kind of a not a yearning, a little bit of nostalgia, but kind of a re-living of. I got the feeling from her that I was headed off to someplace positive, which didn‟t hurt at all.” �(00:48:16) “What about your dad? During that period of time, what was his reaction to your going off?” (00:48:23) “I got the hug. The „Good luck.‟ The speech about sunrises again. The, „Be careful and keep your mouth shut.‟ But there was no warnings about, you know, „Watch out for this. Be careful of this.‟ It was kind of like sending one of those little friction toys off…you just give them the best start that you can and then you turn them loose.” (00:48:59) “Yes.” (00:49:01) “…And they said they‟d pray for me. This was good, too.” (00:49:07) “Then you board another airplane and headed off to where?‟ (00:49:13) “I want to say San Francisco. I was thinking about that and the plane was delayed twice. I was supposed to be in San Francisco just a few hours but one of those mysterious whatevers had come up.” (00:49:25) “Now, you‟re traveling by yourself or were there other nurses?” (00:49:27) “Well, I was traveling by myself. There may have been another group of nurses at some point but literally during the time that I was packing my duffel bag, my grandmother had died so my mother‟s mother who lived us for twenty years so we got extended another couple days extra days because of the funeral. So if I was supposed to meet up with this little clump of nurses who were traveling, I missed the boat.” (00:49:56) “Right.” (00:49:57) “So I did San Francisco alone and then over to Vietnam. A long flight. Very long. We stopped in Guam. We stopped in Hawaii.” (00:50:13) “As you know, I grew up in Asia and I‟ve talked to a lot of people who‟ve never been to Asia of any kind. They get off the airplane and I assume you got off the airplane in….” (00:50:23) “I got off the airplane.” (00:50:25) “….okay. What happened?” �(00:50:28) “That‟s what happened. I was expecting, „Boom!‟ No running water. I was expecting mud. I was expecting tents, hooches. When I stepped off, I was expecting heat. When I stepped off the very air conditioned plane, and the heat, it was a lot like walking into a steam bath. It was incredibly hot and over the P.A. system, the loud speaker was Credence Clearwater Revival singing, „Willie and the Poor Boy.‟ And I thought, „Not quite what I expected.‟ And, to this day, whenever I hear that song, bam! Coming down the plane in Benwa. Orange juice cans.” (00:51:22) “Really?” (00:51:23) “No, that was Thailand.” (00:51:25) “Okay. I was just going to say. Because Asia smells differently than anywhere else you‟re ever going to go. There‟s such a mixture of everything. You just don‟t get here in America. I mean, Americans are westerners, if you want to put it that way. You can explain it as much as you can to somebody but they won‟t grasp it until they actually walk into it and you‟re suddenly…every sense in your body is in a foreign…” (00:51:48) “What was that?” (00:51:50) “Yeah.” (00:51:52) “It‟s like trying to explain to people who don‟t have kids, what it‟s like to have kids. Save your breath. You can never convey it and you‟re just going to sound like an idiot and preserve dignity at all costs. There was this smell. There was just acres and acres of concrete.” (00:52:09) “Where did you actually arrive? What was the airport?” (00:52:12) “Benwa.” (00:52:14) “Okay, Benwa airport. And this is a major staging area for…” (00:52:17) “I think Benwa. It could have been Longbin, but I think Benwa. I know we had to go on a bus from one to the other. Wherever the replacement was…..and again, I was not expecting running water. We were put in a little actually, we were put in a large tent and they made a lot of speeches about what to expect and this wasn‟t just nurses, it was all the incoming people. I met a lot of nice people there. We were waiting for our assignments to come in. Theoretically, all the paperwork was out there someplace but, as I said, talk �about running water, I was very surprised that there was running water and concrete bathroom and little geckos climbing all over. A touch I hadn‟t thought of. And I turned on the water – nice, potable water. You could actually drink it – the water runs into the sink, but there‟s nothing connecting the sink to anything, it just runs directly onto the floor and then there‟s a main drain. So it was at least kind of a step down from what I was….or a step up, whatever. The water was running. It was good.” (00:53:38) “Where did you go from the airport then? Were you immediately put to a base?” (00:53:45) ””The replacement depot, where people…it‟s sort of like. This is like, as I recall, some bazillion years later, hooches that were just wooden, with lots of screens and you would go to the boards or something there were a couple of postings or listings, to check and see if your name was on the listing and when you were supposed to leave for wherever it was.” (00:54:24) “All right.” (00:54:26) “And, since I didn‟t have orders because my first orders had been invalidated because I wasn‟t there, they were looking for a spot for me and they said, „Where would you like to go?‟ Well, this is like, I‟m deciding what to do…my future is hanging….where do I want to go? Give me a map and a dart.” (00:54:47) “There‟s some temples I‟ve always wanted to see.” (00:54:49) “I didn‟t even know about the temples. But I knew that my friend Judy Tripler was in Plaku, and I‟d heard of Saigon. I‟d heard of Cameron Bay and they‟d offered me several places and when they mentioned Plaku, I thought, „Ah. Tripler‟s in Plaku. Plaku would be good.‟ So I said Plaku and they looked at me like „Okay‟ I thought „Oh, oh.‟ So I went up to Plaku. It took a little while for me to get up there.” (00:55:23) “This is still 1969 there?” (00:55:26) “Yes.” (00:55:27) “Okay.” (00:55:29) “And there was still a war on. So I was trundled up to Plaku with all my worldly possessions in a duffel bag. And Tripler was not there. She was back in the states because her dad had died. So I wrote her a letter that said, „I‟m here. Where are you?‟ Plaku is probably the best kept secret of the war. It was central highlands. It was not as humid. It was known as rocket city, for �obvious reasons but it was…there were Montagnards there, the mountain people. They were more primitive than the Vietnamese.” (00:56:16) “We‟d call them aborigines. Would that be correct? They kind of had their own little culture. Mountain people.”\ (00:56:25) “Yeah. I found them absolutely lovely. I didn‟t speak enough anything but apparently they either understood….there were some missionaries in the area who spoke Montagnard but it was a little bit different than the rest of Vietnam.” (00:56:51) “Okay. What was the base? Was it a base? I mean, give us an idea visually of when you arrived in…” (00:56:59) ”Visually? Okay. You‟re coming in and you see this big chain link fence and there‟s a dividing line and there‟s the usual Army looking complex. Actually, there were some stucco building areas there that were left over from the French. And there‟s this dividing line, helipad, and the dividing line. On this side it‟s kind of mud, grey, reddish mud. On the other side, there‟s sidewalks and grass and concrete structures with roofs on them, little gardens little concrete stairs going….Air Force. Army. And I will leave it up to you to sort out which is which. They could grow grass!” (00:57:53) “Oh.” (00:57:54) ”You were talking about the smell, the scent. Marigolds, too. I always think of marigolds as little things that edge the garden.” (00:57:59) “Sure.” (00:58:00) “Marigold bushes higher than this table, just huge ones. I thought, „It looks like marigolds. Smells like marigolds. Who knew they would grow like that?‟” (00:58:16) “Where were you assigned in this group. I mean were you in a tent or in a building or what?” (00:58:20) ”I was in a concrete building, amazingly enough.” (00:58:25) “Bunk beds, or…?” (00:58:26) “Single room.” (00:58:27) “Really?” �(00:58:30) “Yes. I was a nurse. An officer. A female. Outrank almost anybody I can see.” (00:58:39) “Wow! What was your immediate, your first day on the job, let‟s put it that way. What did you do? Did you walk into a room and there‟s a hospital here?” (00:58:49) “You were supposed to get the first aid tour you all through everything and they tell you things like…there‟s this paperwork and they look at your clearance and I accidentally had higher clearance than generic, normal nurses did because once upon a time in Fort Devens, some secret squirrel had been in some kind of a bad accident and they wanted to take him into surgery and they wanted to recover him somewhere, but not in a ward where possibly the baddies would hear him say secret squirrel stuff he wasn‟t supposed to say. So they thought, „Where should we put him where he isn‟t likely to be in the mix? O.B. department, that would be good. No one will think of that.‟” (00:59:40) “Well, sure.” (00:59:41) ”You have to have someone with a higher, not top secret, but higher to recover him in case he divulges this stuff.” (00:59:50) “Where‟s the bomb, or something.” (00:59:55) “Mostly, he wanted to know where his mom was. That was pretty typical. But, this was just before I went to Vietnam so they changed the clearance, but if they changed it back, the paperwork never caught up.” (01:00:06) “All right.” (01:00:08) ”It never caught up until I was coming back. So, they‟d look at the paperwork and say, „Oh.‟ Of course, you can‟t ask. If someone has a higher clearance than you, you can‟t ask. You can‟t say, „Why is this?‟ because the response tends to be, „Do you need to know this?‟” (01:00:21) “Right. Right.” (01:00:22) “So what they would tell me was, „Okay. Now this is headquarters. See that file cabinet? See that little button on top? If we‟re overrun, you come and pound that button and acid will destroy all the files.‟ If we‟re overrun, possibly, I‟m going to be taking care of my patients and the last thing on my mind will be racing over there and hitting something that‟s going to make acid fall all over. I thought, „They‟ve got to be kidding.‟ And I‟ve never actually �researched it to find out if they were kidding or not. This could be just the stuff they tell you when you come in-country. There‟s a lot of stories that you tell you when you come in-country.” (01:01:05) ”Let‟s get an idea about a typical day the first week that you were there. What was the first week like?” (01:01:14) “It was getting used to the people, trying to remember who was who.” (01:01:17) ”How many people were you surrounded by? What was your… I‟m trying to get an idea of how big or small this hospital staff was? Or this medical staff.” (01:01:27) ”You‟re talking ancient memories here. We had a sixty bed, sixty bed unit. I was on a surgical unit and we had not just the G.I.s, we had Vietnamese, we had Montagnards, we had little kids that had come in for surgery. It was fairly quiet. We would have two, sometimes two or three, of course I was training or orienting under another nurse but usually there‟d be one nurse, there‟d be two nurses assigned who worked twelve hour shifts, but if it was quiet, you could do eight hours and overlap in the middle and eight hours. Each one of you would do eight hours and overlap. It depended upon how busy you were. I got part of, part of the difficulty in not getting the focused Vietnam training was the corpsmen would always tell me I‟m corpsmen‟s work because one of the things you had to chart on was the conditions of the wounds. And if I wasn‟t to write that the wound is clean and granulated and healing, I really needed to see that wound and make sure that what I‟m saying is true. In order to see it, you have to take the dressing off and look at it. As long as you have the dressing off, you might as well clean it and put it back together.” (01:02:52) “And that‟s not your job…” (01:02:54) “Actually, it was my job, but the corpsmen did a lot of that. Our corpsmen were ninety-one Charlies. 91 C-3, whatever. It‟s the designation, more official military terms. But these are the guys who are essentially combat medics. A, B and C. A is very low-level. But, my corpsmen were perfectly qualified to be medics on the field. They would be six months in the field, six months rotate through. Sometimes, they‟d stay in one spot. But, they can probably start IVs better than I can, depending upon where they are. But then you get a little territorial with the nurses so, can they take blood pressures, or not? I think so. Can they give injections? Sure they can. What‟s magic about this? And, there were a lot of G.I.s who‟d really rather not bare their hip to a nurse and to have some other guy come and stick them with a needle? That‟s fine. When I came back, I found what the division was. I always thought the �corpsman was supposed to be opening the dressings and then I run over and look at it. That seemed kind of useless.” (01:04:13) ”I got back to this one question about how big it was? I‟m trying to get an idea of how big it was? Sixty beds, sixty beds but I‟m not looking for exact numbers. What I‟m trying to do, Mary Beth, is get a visualization of the environment you are working in. Are we talking about…?” (01:04:30) “It was really small. It was small and it eventually downsized to an aid station but it was…Saigon would be the big field hospitals. Big hospitals in Da Nang and in Saigon. Cameron Bay was big. Plaku was small.” (01:04:51) “Would you say that this was a, and I‟m unfamiliar with the terminology, a staging area where you kind of settled, get somebody ready to go to a major hospital, or…?” (01:05:04) “We were sort of an evac hospital. We would get the guys coming in from the field that come into R. and E. R. and E.? R. and D. Receiving and disposition, whatever. We had a search crew unit there, we had a burn unit there, we had medical units there for the guys with malaria and whatever other ugly bugs had gotten to them. We had several surgical units, so it was big enough to be a…when I say hospital, the units are all laid out separately. It‟s not like it‟s one big building. It‟s small.” (01:05:45) “Okay. The burn unit is here…” (01:05:46) “Well, there‟s a big concrete, the main part, the burn unit and the intensive care section were together, but there were other. I think that‟s right. Each unit was kind of a separate, functioning area.” (01:06:17) “Let‟s take as an example, somewhere nearby, a battle goes on, a G.I. or several G.I.s get hurt. They get helicoptered, right…?” (01:06:22) “Yes.” (01:06:24) “…by helicopter. Did you have a helicopter pad there?” (01:06:25) “Down by Army.” (01:06:27) “So, you‟re getting, right fresh from the battle, wounded people who medics have patched together to the best of their ability. Which, as I understand it…” �(01:06:35) “And they did a nice job.” (01:06:35) “That‟s what I was going to say. Yeah. So now they arrive, and almost like that MASH, guys are running up to meet the helicopter and they bring somebody to your unit. What happens? Here‟s a guy with burns and he‟s had his leg damaged. What happens?” (01:06:53) “They are triaged as soon as the come in.” (01:06:56) “Which means…” (01:06:58) “We know what triage is. But who knows how long…” (01:07:00) “I‟ve watched MASH. I‟ve seen…” (01:07:02) “MASH was very understated. They‟re sorted out. If they need absolute, immediate treatment in order to stay alive…” (01:07:12) “So there are doctors…” (01:07:14) “Not just doctors. Everybody‟s there.” (01:07:18) “Saying, „Okay. This is a guy that can wait five minutes. This guy‟s gotta go in now.” (01:07:20) “Yes. „Arterial bleeding, take him in.‟” (01:07:21) “All right.“ (01:07:23) “And then they‟re sorted out into where they‟re going.” (01:07:27) “Before this experience here, we‟re talking about here, had you had any experience before…you‟d had experience with broken legs, you‟d had experience with…had you ever had the experience where, „There‟s a guy who‟s leg was just blown off.‟” (01:07:44) “We‟d had paper experience with it. That was one of the things we‟d had at Fort Sam was learning triage and you had to go through, there‟s pretty specific things you watch for in triage. No. Not, up that point. Very few people I knew had had their legs blown off.” (01:08:03) What was your first experience? I know that this was a long time ago and I‟m not trying to get the down and dirty details, �but…incoming. I don‟t know what the terminology is, but here comes the wounded. (01:08:15) “What sticks in my mind?” (01:08:16) ‟‟Yes.” (01:08:18) “What sticks in my mind is not necessarily coming in as Army, but could be an emergency. R & D is research and development.” (01:08:23) “Okay.” (01:08:24) “On my unit, taking off this huge dressing. D.P.C., delayed primary closure. Somewhere along the line, someone decided that if you have an open wound and you sew it up real quick, then you‟re sewing in a lot of bugs in there. If you leave it open and you clean it every four, six, eight, twelve hours, then it will heal faster. Of course, this means that you have this gaping wound for a while, but they heal must cleaner and you get a much higher survival rate, which is good. Well the Montagnard man who was sitting on the bed and he looked a like Omar Sharif. And I took the dressing off his arm, it was a big, fat, fluffy dressing. Took it off his arm and now I‟m looking through his arm. There‟s a bone coming up here and there‟s nothing in between and there‟s the little skinny bone over there. And I was thinking, „Okay.‟ But he seemed perfectly confident that I could handle this and I figured, „Well, I can handle this.‟ We had been through the goat lab at Fort Sam where you learned to deal with wounds. They have these shot goats so you learn how to deal with a gunshot wound. The burns I think were worse than bleeding. Bleeding wounds have never really gotten to me, except for Maxillofacial. Face wounds and only because all of the sudden you can identify something. It looks like a plate of hamburger, unidentifiable and all of the sudden an eye will open in the middle of it and you think, „Woah! Hello!‟ It wasn‟t, I don‟t want to say it wasn‟t horribly traumatic, but it was, because I‟d worked in the operating room before and working O.B. is not always neat and pretty.” (01:10:36) This is really the point that I think that it amazes me. It was your training. This military training, to an outsider like myself who confronts that kind of horror, I‟m thinking horror. But you‟ve been trained to take care of that. So, yeah, you may sit back later and say, „Well that was a horrible thing and I hope the guy doesn‟t die‟ or whatever, but if you panic, you‟re reacting like I might react and you‟re not doing your job.” �(01:11:04) “Well, it‟s like an auto mechanic. When his car goes „ticket-a-ticketa-ticketa and smoke starts pouring out, he thinks, „Danged head gasket.‟ I think, „I‟m going to die.‟ or „How much is this going to cost?‟ It‟s the training. It‟s what you‟re familiar with and if you‟re, I won‟t say comfortable with it, but if you know what to do. It‟s like any kind of emergency preparedness, if you know what to do, if you have some clue what you‟re supposed to be doing, then you can go ahead and do that and by the time you‟re done with it, you can think, „Oh. I guess it‟s a little late to start screaming and panicking now.‟” (01:11:42) “You know, I think that‟s one of the things that‟s been fascinating to me, interviewing vets that have gone through very traumatic experiences and looking back on it from a different generation or from a different perspective of never having gone through that, you wonder how could they have done that but that‟s the point, you trained to do it and you did it because somebody‟s life depended upon that.” (01:12:03) “Scott O‟Grady, the pilot who was shot down first during the Persian War. He was stuck in one spot, the other guys all around him and he made it out, called in the company. And when they asked later, they were trying to make him a major hero, he said, essentially, „I was just a scared little bunny rabbit, but I‟d had the training and I did exactly what I was supposed to do and it worked. Of course, some people do exactly what they‟re supposed to do and it doesn‟t work.” (01:12:45) “The movie MASH, the TV series MASH, gives the impression of kind of an orchestrated chaos. Of course, that‟s what a director does, it was not actually….but did you have a sense of all these things are going on around you, but every piece is being dealt with. How would you describe, the helicopters come in. There‟s a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be done. Give us an idea of what‟s going on.” (01:13:21) “It‟s kind of hard to give an idea but everybody does their job and keeps working and nobody looks up and says, „Oh. There‟s thousands of people out there.‟ You know there‟s more people coming in. You do what you do as efficiently as you can and then you go to the next on and you deal with that and you trust that the people around you are doing their part so that when you finish there‟s not going to be someone left over who has not been treated. Everybody does what they‟ve been trained to do. It is not as hectic MASH, ER. There has to be a certain amount of drama in it, otherwise it‟s bad television and we wouldn‟t want that. But the training you have and the stuff that you do, you‟re comfortable with it and you can do it, I don‟t want to say with your eyes closed, but you‟re used to it. You‟ve practiced it over and over again and it‟s just like doing any kind of a drill.” �(01:14:28) “I‟ve spoken to many different vets who worked together whether it‟s in combat or not in combat, but under great stress like that. How are relationships formed or not formed with your fellow people? Is there a sense of I want to distance myself from them or am I part of this group and there‟s a real strong sense of camaraderie? What is the interaction between the nurses, the doctors, the corpsmen?” (01:14:52) “You work very closely with the corpsmen. Most of the time there‟ll be a nurse with maybe three corpsmen. So you work really more closely with the corpsmen than you do with the other nurses because nurses are very rare. The doctors come through, you get a….of course, it depends on what unit you‟re on, too. You work more closely than you would in a civilian hospital with the people. You are also living with them. It‟s not like they come in on the bus. I learned a lot from my corpsmen. I learned a lot from pretty much everybody I met but I learned a lot from my corpsmen. Some of them were old beyond their years and some of them were just incredibly young. There are bonds that were – forged is a good word – that were completely, will last forever, unbreakable. I may never see any of them again, and their names may slip around a bit, but pop up the face and the name is, yes!” (01:16:10) It really amazes me and I‟d have the same experience if I interviewed your mom, is it, you may not be thinking about it but now we‟re sitting back here in this comfortable studio, talking without thinking any given moment that you‟re dealing with somebody‟s life and it may be gone and it‟s your job to make sure that doesn‟t happen. And it just amazes me. You don‟t think about that while you‟re doing it though, right? You‟re just doing it.” (01:16:38) “Exactly. You know you say a lot of prayers while you‟re doing it, too. It‟s something that you do. It‟s not something that you ever get bored with or blasé about, or you‟re not interest in anymore because that‟s too important. You hear a lot about burnout. You can get stressed, you can get burnt out but for the most part the people who get that stressed, some will recognize it and say, „You are cranky. Go away.‟ And then they‟ll bring someone – because I worked on the surgical unit and not the intensive care unit all the time – if they needed, if somebody needed a break, I would go in occasionally and fill in just so that somebody else could come out and take a deep breath, get themselves grounded again, then go back in.” (01:17:27) “Let‟s just do that. What is the experience of getting to that point and did it ever happen to you? Where you just fell apart. I need to go take a break.” �(01:17:39) “I was having a good time.” (01:17:43) “Okay. Let‟s look at it from a different perspective. Let‟s look at a particularly difficult period where, either you‟re working at night, you‟re keeping these guys alive, well, everything‟s been settled. Everything‟s now under control. What‟s the feeling as you walk out and you sit down and you know that all is well, for that moment anyway?” (01:18:08) “Finishing the night should then, once you walk out of the unit, go back to your hootch, then you realize what else is going on around you. I was never, I‟d count the helicopters. The helicopters would go out for the first light flights and I‟d try not to, but I could lie in my hootch, the screen windows were about this high, actually and see the choppers going out and I‟d try not to count them, but I counted to twenty-seven, thirteen, whatever it was. And, about the time it was for me to get up and go back to work again, they‟re coming back in. I‟m trying not to count them because if there‟s only twenty-six or twenty…..I don‟t want to hear about it. But when you‟re off, you get to talk to the other people if they happen to be off at the same time. You find yourself fraternizing with people working your same shift, my friend Tripler who was there, she was in the hootch right across from me but she worked a different unit.” (01:19:26) “So she can‟t…” (01:19:28) “Yes she can. We had a fine time and yes, I ran into her after Vietnam and she‟s in New Jersey. She‟s a midwife. Very good.” (01:19:38) “We‟re going to wind this down now, but as was with your dad, we‟re going to have to do this again. There‟s a lot more to do with your experiences. So in the last ten or so minutes, I‟m going to ask you some direct questions that have to do with your experiences but the next time we get together, I‟m going to get much more into, not only experiences while you were there, but then you moved on to another location, is that right?” (01:20:04) “Yes. In Vietnam with the 85th.” (01:20:07) “Then of course there‟s the trip home and there‟s a whole bunch of things we need to get into. But, you come from a family of both mother and father being experienced veterans. In the case of your father, as a paratrooper, very proud of what he accomplished and of course, very thankful that he got out without a scratch. And your mom saw as many as if not, well as many of the horrors that you‟ve �experienced. When you got back, a lot of the Vietnam veterans that I‟ve spoken to, and it‟s not limited to Vietnam, World War II guys that got back, they didn‟t talk about it. They just,‟Get on with my life. I went out and saved my country. Now it‟s time to start a family, get on with my life.‟ Because of the uniqueness of your mother and father‟s background did they, were they curious or were you anxious to talk to them about your experience? What happened when you got back? Not just immediately after you got back, but was there discussion about your experience compared with your mother‟s experience?” (01:21:21) “We never really sat down and debriefed about it. It was the same as with Dad. If we were talking about something and it came up in the conversation, it was never a forbidden topic but it was part of my life and if they asked a question, it was not a secret. You talk about that there was a lot of hostility, animosity, whatever towards Vietnam vets coming back, but bear in mind, I was invisible as a Vietnam vet coming back. As soon as the uniform is off, I don‟t look like a vet any more. So, I did not get that really hostile or the hatred or whatever focused. I saw it on, everybody else was getting it, but when maybe 1975, sorry ‟85, I was accidentally in Detroit and they had the DVA convention and someone asked me when I first admitted that I was a Vietnam vet. Well, let‟s see. I got out in ‟72, probably April of ‟72 that I started admitting that. So it was never a secret. I try not to brag about it.” (01:22:53) “We were talking earlier when I was looking at your Library of Congress Veteran‟s History Project bio sheet the thing that struck me was that you got out on April 18th, 1972 and April 11th, 1972, I was walking into the draft board to register for the draft to go to Vietnam and I was told, basically, „It‟s over, kid. Go home.‟ “ (01:23:18) “So you didn‟t get to go, either?” (01:23:20) “I didn‟t get to go.” (01:23:23) “Dang! Well, I went for you.” (01:23:24) “Well, I‟ll tell you a lot of you did.” (01:23:26) “I actually saw something, years ago. A nurse who was being interviewed for an oral history project. But she said something that‟s always struck me and the gist of it was that we were there in your place, in place of the mothers, the sisters, the wives who couldn‟t be there and she said that she just wanted people to know, we did our best. We tried to take care of people, we treated everyone the way we would treat a father, a brother, a husband. We were really doing our best to take care of them and nobody was just a number. �He was just a leg, or. I‟ve forgotten all the names, for the most part but nobody was just something to be scooted along. I know it‟s popular in stories or media or whatever to make everybody pretty much faceless, but they were all distinct. You were always aware of the people that were there.” (01:24:37) “I want to thank you very much for taking the time out to do this. I want to ask you one more question. Of course, that‟s with the understanding that I‟m going to ask you a lot more questions later and tomorrow night I‟m looking forward to having you and your mother on stage at the Ford Museum and we‟re going to talk about a lot of these things. How do you feel your military experience shaped you as the person that you are today.” (01:25:02) “It made me totally intolerant. I appreciate, actually, I appreciate pretty much everything. I am so aware that everything I have is a gift. And, I appreciate people who do their jobs well and it doesn‟t matter what the job is. It‟s a delight to me to find somebody who likes what they do and does it. I like the feeling that, things were very simple in Vietnam. It was do your job and stay alive. I didn‟t have to, no concern at all about car payments. rent, groceries, anything like that. It was very, very simplified. And sometimes you get layers and layers and layers of complications, convolutions. But, everything was very simple, and very basic and it really felt like you were doing something for a purpose and once you had that feeling, there was a reason that you do stuff, it gives you a strength, it gives you something to draw on. It makes you; it gives you an idea of your own worth. That‟s very, very hard to; you can‟t give it to someone. It has to come from inside. That forging, that bond that the experience when you come back to the states, you have that feeling that I have done something. Essentially, this is worth it. And it‟s kind of a standard you get to measure whatever else you‟re doing. I wouldn‟t trade it for anything.” (01:27:02) “Thank you very much.” (01:27:03) “Anytime. My pleasure.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeftonM Title A name given to the resource Sefton, Mary B. (Interview transcript and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sefton, Mary B. Description An account of the resource Mary Sefton is a Vietnam War veteran who served in the U.S. Army from 1968 to April 1972. In her interview transcript she goes into a detailed account of the events surrounding her pre-enlistment, enlistment and training; her tours in Vietnam, and life after the Vietnam War. Besides this, she offers a unique perspective as a nurse of what the fighting meant in the hospitals of Vietnam as well as what the ground fighting was like for U.S. troops. In addition, she shares what U.S. civilians thought of returning veterans and finally her thoughts on her service experience. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-02-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94599a5c1500f05223ff9ddca2dc4845.pdf c7a8e305c0b04edab163e0a90eca2014 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Colette Seguin Beighley Interviewers: John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet and Leah Anderson. Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/16/2012 Biography and Description Colette Seguin Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center. Transcript VANPORTFLIET: Ok, why don’t we go around and say our names of the group first. I’m John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet, and Leah Anderson. Ok so the date today is March 16th its 12 o’clock noon, at Grand Valley State University, in Allendale, in Michigan. were here today to talk about the subject of Civil rights here in West Michigan. Can you please state your name for the recorder? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Colette Seguin Beighley VANPORTFLIET: Thank you, Ok so where you born? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I was born in Oakland, California. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, and then so what was life like, Life growing up in California. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, I was born in the projects, which people are usually surprised about. I think that when you’re in such a privileged spot like the university people always think that you come from that type of space, but I did not. I had the great opportunity of being in the bay area during a time in which there was so much civil rights work going on. It started with the free speech movement at Berkley, and then it went to the Civil rights movement, the women’s movement, Indians of all tribes, occupy Alcatraz, the gay rights movement, all that was happening in that space that I grew up in, so that was very influential. VANPORTFLIET: O yea I bet, so did you go to college? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes, Page 1 �VANPORTFLIET: Ok where did you go? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I went to California State University, Haworth. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so what was life like there? Like what was the kind of atmosphere at the college because you already referenced some of the big civil rights movements going on there, so what kind of atmosphere like with a bunch of that kinda going on? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yea there was a lot happening in Central America, and there was a lot happening with apartheid in South Africa during that time, so a lot of that stuff was really on the radar, but that particular campus was not as much of an activist campus as Berkley was. but still we had education around those issues and they were on the radar. VANPORTFLIET: Did you have any personal involvement during your college years? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: In college? VANPORTFLIET: Yeah. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No not really, when I was in high school I was involved in a few things against nuclear power plants, but that was about it. VANPORTFLIET: Ok and after college, what was your life kinda like, just a quick background? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I got a masters degree in counseling and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in both California and Michigan. So I had 25 years of private practice experience before I started this new chapter of my life, so that was very much what I did. I did a lot of advocating for youth in particular; I worked with beyond control youth, run away youth, homeless youth. And so I had some experience with that and those were all great experiences that lead me to this point. And I think that having a degree in counseling is really great preparation for doing student services work. VANPORTFLIET: Right, so you already referenced your daughter, who I know, but what is your family like? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: What is my family like? Hahaha well I have some great kids, I have 2 stepsons from my former marriage, and they both live in Grand Haven. One of them is married to my daughter in law of course, who is a very good friend of mine. The other one just got engaged, and then I have a biological son Ari who is currently living in Amherst, Massachusetts, and then my daughter Chloe who is a junior here and is just a Princess after three boys. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so does anyone else have any questions before I keep going? NIEMIEC: I was just wondering, when you were growing up like with your family, what was your family like when you were a child, were you very religious, were your parents strict at all? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, my mom had been married before so there were two siblings but they didn’t grow up with me they lived with their dad, so I was really an only child. I remember when we were living in the projects and it was really rough, what’s always below the surface is your safety. We Page 2 �moved out of there when I was eight years old, but that’s definitely that way that I learned to navigate the world. And I remember being really afraid, like terrified, you know a couple of bad things happened so that was kinda a rough way to enter the world. But my mom was super, super, super loving and supportive and my dad was fairly absent, alcoholic. That’s probably too much information hahaha. Then when I was eight we moved to a suburb of the east bay, Dublin. And it was, it went from a very diverse living situation to really an all white neighborhood. And I went to elementary, middle school, and high school in that environment. It was fine but you know as I really appreciate diversity, so I was kind of sad that I lost that but my family valued diversity and always looked at people who were different them ourselves as an opportunity to step back and learn more about the world. I think they did some things wrong, I can remember some things that were probably pretty offensive to especially African American people, but it was not, it was just out of their own ignorance. But we weren’t even talking about things like White privilege at the time so people would step all over their whiteness without even knowing it. But we had friends who were from the deaf community; we had friends that were from the gay and lesbian community. And every time my parent would prepare me for ‘were going to meet this family and this is what their like, you may have questions and we will talk about it afterwards’, really open in that way. And I was raised catholic, but I won’t say that it was a very religious family, my parents, because my mom was divorced before my mom could never really become catholic but they had this idea that, that is what they should raise me as. I went to church with a lot of different family, and did first communion and catechism and all that. It provides a sort of structure well your growing up so I appreciated that. VANPORTFLIET: So what kind of drew you to initially counseling, you said you graduated with a masters in family counseling, what initially drew you to that? Was it your diversity in your childhood? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No, no my family is very crazy hahaha and I just wanted to figure out, what the heck happened here? And how can I possibly go on and create a healthy family. And I cant do that unless I know, how do you do a healthy family and what the hell happened here? And that was really it, in fact I even went on to a year of my PHD program and then I sort of came to terms, actually trough my work there that I was kinda done. I just wanted to figure out a few things and I had figured it out. Now I wished I had finished hahaha just my desire to get into counseling was just to figure out the world, to get some of what I didn’t get growing up. A skill set to go out. VANPORTFLIET: So how long did you do the counseling? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: For about 25 years. VANPORTFLIET: Wow, so was that in California? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No I was in California for only about 3 years, the rest was in Michigan. VANPORTFLIET: So you moved to Michigan for your Job? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Nope, I moved to Michigan because my then husband’s family was from Michigan and we thought it would be a good environment to raise kids because the cousins were here. And it is a good place to raise kids, unless one of your kids turns out to be gay then maybe not so much, which we found out. Page 3 �VANPORTFLIET: So you said Ari, who is gay, who I know. He is actually a good friend, I am sad he moved away, but what was it like raising Ari or maybe you can broaden the spectrum a little bit like raising a gay or lesbian son in west Michigan? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Ari was really set apart from all the other kids because he was profoundly gifted. He got into a Johns Hoppkins program when he was in 8th grade that was reserved for students in the United States for students who scored the top half of one percent in the nation. So that was really a challenge, it was always a challenge for him. To keep him stimulated, to have his needs meet, to keep him grounded. And that always made him different, from any of the other kids, different in the way he related; but he was always different from the other kids. He was extremely demonstrative and that worked till he was about 6 then his male relatives wanted him to man up a bit. He never really did, he’s just who he is. And I didn’t raise him thinking that he was gay, I raised him thinking that he was a unique individual who didn’t really fit, kinda a square peg in a round hole. But I do remember when he was maybe 2 and a half. I was sitting on his bedroom floor he was playing, playing dress up and he dressed up and he was like spinning around and he was working it. And I remember thinking, ‘oh this kid might be gay, I wonder if I’m going to be returning to this conversation in 10 years or so’ and then I put it out of my head. Until he was about 13 or 14. By the time he was about 14, he was really questioning and I was really questioning him too. Then he eventually came out when he was 16. VANPORTFLIET: From your perspective, what was that like for him? You said he was always so different, always set apart what was that like for him, like at school? Because at 16 that is such a rough time for everyone, having that kind of revelation and kind of life change. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I think it was incredible rough, he was not getting along with his sister, and his sister is his best friend in the whole world! He was just irascible and when he did come out, we ended up doing this retreat together as a family. Six of us got on a plane and went to Santé Fe and did this. The experience coming out powerfully, and at this retreat like all retreats, you have to write a letter. And then they make you read the letter. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It lame but whatever. He read the letter and he read it to his dad and I. And he said, you know, mom and dad you are such good parents. And I’m thinking, okay there’s something; let’s cut to the chase here. . And then he said but there’s something I have to tell you. And then it was so tremendous moment. My adrenaline just shot to my head. And I remember just going through the rolodex like in split seconds of how did I screw up? How did I not protect him from getting hurt? And then he talked about how when he was in middle school, he had been……well a few boys had thought he was gay. And they targeted him. And they would wait for him in the stairwell of the school and beat him up every day. But they wouldn’t beat him on his face or on his arms, only on the lower body. But they would beat him until the point that he would vomit blood. And I hyperventilated when he said that. I never hyperventilated in my life, but it was just so awful. It was so awful to know that he had been going through that and we had no idea. And you know, two therapists as parents you’d think we would have a clue, but we didn’t have any idea. So I just felt so awful that he had to go through that alone. And it Page 4 �really it explained so much about how he was irascible during those years and just so difficult to live with. and also how he was so much freer and comfortable with himself after he came out. VANPORTFLIET: Right. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah. VANPORTFLIET: Do you guys have anything questions? (Looking at group) DEORK: Have you always had a good relationship with him? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. Not that I don’t drive him crazy. I do of course. But yes. (Laughter) ANDERSON: Do you think that has helped him in this experience with this? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: . I don’t know. I would think so but I’m the last person to…you should talk to him. Call him up. (Laughter) SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: ask him what he thinks. I’m sure at times it’s been annoying as how to have a mom that is so out there. You know. (Laughter) SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It’s like, can you please tone it down a bit? You know. But he’s never said that. He’s always a big cheerleader too, so. VANPORTFLIET: . So, what is your title here at the college? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I am director of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender resource center. LGBT resource center. VANPORTFLIET: Right. and then kind of take us through like what is your job description. Like, what kind of things do you do as the director of the LGBT center? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Okay well, let me tell you about the LGBT resource center then ill break it down. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah of course. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So, our mission is to empower students to lead …if I didn’t have a cold. (Laughter) (Pause) Okay, to empower students to lead authentic lives to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to work for social justice. So, we look to our center as serving 25,000 members of the community, not just the LGBTQ community. Because all of our students live in a world with gross inequality and part of their education needs to be coming to terms with their place in that world. Understanding what’s happening Page 5 �with marginalized communities. And then what, how does that fit with their lives and with what they are going to do. so we, we serve the entire student body and then specifically we serve LGBTQ students. So we have our Freshmen Queer Alliance which is for first year students and it really is to operate a safety net for them. A place to connect, many students don’t come out until they get to college when they can finally separate from their families of origin and trying a new identity. it’s a social group but we also take them on bus trips so that they can learn the bus system and go downtown a bit, and learn where the food places are on campus, and where resources are if they need help with writing or something like that. and then they do fun things like bowling and watch movies and that sort of things. So our Freshmen Queer Alliance is really to just give them a place to be here on campus. And then we also have our Pipeline Leadership Group which is for second year students and above. And that’s a yearlong leadership program that really focuses on advocacy and activism. And it is also open to our allies as well. This year we have our first ally student in the leadership group and it really has been a lot of fun. And then we have our LGBT ambassadors. And they help us out in many ways; whether it is at a social event, our ice cream social at the beginning of the year. They come in their rainbow, GVSU shirts. And look for those students who may be sitting alone or may be trying to find out, find a way to get connected. And they also go into classrooms and do presentations. For our allies and advocate training they tell their stories of coming out, and just wherever we need help our LGBT ambassadors are right there. We also have our monthly on-going LGBT conference, which looks at LGBT and leadership, gender, culture, race, spirituality, and one other thing. (Laughter) And that’s a monthly event that’s LIB100 approved and US201 approved. That really introduces LGBT issues and ideas on campus. We have our lavender graduation; this will be our sixth year. For lavender graduation, it is actually older than the center. This is the fourth year for the center. And it is a time to celebrate the scholastic achievements of our LBGT and ally students. And it is a lot of fun. It’s a big deal. So, we really, really put a lot of effort into lavender graduation. We also have open door discussions where students can come up with their own topic and do their own program in the center. And that is really fascinating to see what kind of things students come up with. We just had one on gay stereotypes. and what else do we do? Oh we have our change and training for social justice, which is semester long program that’s grant funded. And it looks at systems, intersecting systems, of oppression, racism sexism, homophobia, and how they are interdependent and need one another to survive. And we have a 1.0 and a 2.0. And so our students learn the framework in the 1.0 and then they really dig into strategies and tactics for activism in the second one. So, that’s really a very dynamic program. So just to give you, and then our allies and advocate training we do that for the Greek community and then we do it for the general community as well. So I’m not sure if I hit all of our programs but that the smorgasbord of what we do. VANPORTFLIET: That is a lot of involvement. ANDERSON: Yeah, that’s a lot. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. So then my role is to work with the students to develop that program that meets their needs. To really help cast a vision for the center. And to be involved in the greater LGBT Page 6 �community, to keep us tied to current events. So I’m on the board of our state wide Antiviolence and Advocacy Organization Equality Michigan. And I work with the national consourcion of LGBT resource professionals in higher education. And I go to the national gay and lesbian test force conference on creating change every year. And I present at conferences on specifically of expanding the circle which is LGBTQ’s studies and services in higher education. So it’s the only conference that’s really devoted specifically to the issues that we serve. And I’m presenting at two workshops this summer at that conference. So all of that helps me to have a broad sense of the movement. And being able to connect our students to what’s happening in the community and understand nationally. I just like the first week I was here when I was assistant director, I remember a student getting fired. And I remember him saying, “You can’t fire me. I have my rights.” That’s what he said, he was going to say it to the person who fired him. And no you can be fired for being gay in Michigan. There are no protections; there are absolutely no protections in Michigan. Sexual orientation and gender identity is not included in Elliot Larson’s Civil Rights Act. It’s not included in our hate crimes on law. We don’t have second parent adoption. We just recently, after ten years of work, finally passed an anti-bullying bill. But it’s completely toothless and ineffective. There were only two states in the nation left who hadn’t passed an anti-bullying bill and Michigan was one of them. We did it because we were ashamed into it, but it is completely not powerful. And then, our constitution rewritten inequality into our constitution by saying that marriage is between one man and one woman. So it’s rough here. And our students need to understand, yet I don’t want to paint a black picture of their future for them. But I really want to help them to build allies and collisions to go out and change the inequity that excess; not only for the LGBT community, but the immigrant community as a target. A huge islamophobia around the country now. So, all those issues are important and they all impact LGBT lives as well, because our community goes throughout. We have Muslim LGBT people; we have LGBT people who are immigrants. So all those issues are our issues as well. So back to being director. I do all those things and help the programming move forward, to cast division for the center, to keep connected with local state and national movement s. And then also to work within the university to move us forward in being more equitable. In the summer of 2008, we added gender identity and expression to our antidiscrimination policy. But yet, four years later, we do not have policies in place for a staff or faculty member who is looking to transition. So if somebody is identifying as transgender and wants to start transitioning, they want to see a policy in place. They don’t want to have to go into human resources and be the first person to do that. So the vice president of inclusion and equity, Gene Arnold, has formed the Gender Identity and Expression Committee. And I serve on that committee. And we are looking at policies throughout the university, whether it’s developing gender neutral locker room space. Creating health, or adding healthcare coverage that is trans inclusive. Working with banner, we’re going to be an experimental university to work with banner so that they can, students, can choose a preferred name, and not, if somebody is transitioning and they are going by Jane, but their banner says John and their professor outs them in class it’s public safety issue to them. You know? And it’s also so difficult for them to go to every single professor before class begins and tell the story and see if they can get you know they can get by in, and most of the time the professors want to do the right thing but certainly there have been professors who have refused to call them by their preferred name. So then when that happens we get involved, and also I’m on the university’s team against bias, so I’ve worked with bias incidents on campus along with other members of the team, so working with policy and our campus climate is really an important piece of the work we Page 7 �do cause we want all students to feel safe and we want to retain our students once they come here, all students, not just LGBT students but all students. That’s a very long answer. VANPORTFLIET: Aw, that’s okay. so how do you feel that Grand Valley is compared to other schools maybe in Michigan, cause it’s here in West Michigan thats traditionally very religious a religious part of the state, very conservative, so but my opinion I feel like with this center we’re making good steps toward being very proactive, but what’s your opinion? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I think compared to other public universities we’re doing really well. We have a 4.5 out of 5 star rating on the campus LGBT friendly campus climate index, and that’s the highest any school has. At one point the University of Michigan had a 5, but they have moved down to a 4.5 because they have raised the bar a bit to meet the needs of transgender students – VANPORTFLIET: Mmhm SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: More thoroughly, and lets see there are 4 universities, one, two, three, four, five, lets see, maybe not, theres University of Michigan, MSU, Eastern, Tech, Grand Valley, all have 4.5 ratings, so we feel good about that but University of Michigan had the first LGBT resource center in the country but it was four decades before we got ours at Grand Valley. And that said only 7% of campuses in the United States have LGBT resource centers. So we are still ahead of the curve there. And with our implementation of gender neutral housing this past fall we’ve moved even further ahead because I think that after the loss of Tyler Clementi at Rutgers last fall, universities are understanding that they need to listen to the housing needs of their LGBT students more closely. And right after that tragedy Rutgers implemented gender neutral housing. So other universities want to be pro-active so that they are not responding to a negative event, but really doing you know, being ahead of that. so I think that Grand Valley has a long way to go, there are lots of ways we do not meet the needs of our LGBTQ students, faculty, and staff. But we have also come a long way, and we have a tremendous amount of support here, so, I give us high marks. VANPORTFLIET: So, what is, what is maybe the biggest thing here at Grand Valley that we could do to improve, like the, whats the next step that would be like huge in your opinion? For the LGBT center or for the women’s center anything like that? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So like a wish list? VANPORTFLIET: Yeah! SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well a big wish list would be if I could wish away, I would say that I wish we would have a social justice center and our other centers were under it, including disabilities support services which is not under the brella right now, there, in a different unit, but, the purpose of the social justice center would be to not look at just one ‘ism’,not just look at racism, but look at sexism and to see, to educate our students about the dependency of these dynamics on one another to move forward. And also to, we have students who are mostly white and mostly come from at least a middle class background, so they come with lots of privilege and I would really love to educate the entire student body about that privilege so that they can look at other people more realistically. And also understand Page 8 �that with privilege comes responsibility. so that would be my big view. But then specifically for our center, bigger budget, more staff, *laughing* that’s my Christmas wish list. so that we could do all the things that we want to do. VANPORTFLIET: okay, so we talked about proposition 8 in our class, so how, it was passed and then overturned, and brought back, so how do you think Michigan did on that, I think, I think you already touched on, it just wasn’t there, it kinda dropped the ball, and what do you think, can happen to kind of help push that along, you know? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Mmhm, Well marriage equality certainly is, at the top of the list of items that the LGBT, what we call Gay Inc. which is the human rights campaign, and the national gay and lesbian task force what they are moving forward, and I have some problems with that, so I’ll say that and then I’ll go back to it, but as far as marriage, yes, Michigan was an epic fail. It passed, we passed a constitutional amendment to ban marriage equality in our state. I’m happy to say I didn’t vote for it even before I was so out. and I think there are over 30 states that have those kinds of constitutional amendments, but we are seeing state by state, it’s flipping, so that’s helpful. There are 8 states and the District Colombia right now that marriage equality, I just can’t wait for 2 more flip and I can say 20% of the states in the nation have marriage equality, so, and that doesn’t count states that allow civil unions, so and let me just clarify that that’s still separate but not equal because even our own household member benefits on our university, our unmarried partners get the same health coverage, but they don’t pay the same for it, because they have to pay for their coverage with post-tax dollars. Where as married couples pay with pre-tax dollars so they actually end up spending about 25% less if you’re married. So if Michigan were to flip marriage equality it would still be inequitable for gay and lesbian couples because at the federal level we have the defensive marriage act, which Obama currently is not enforcing, but it’s, thats a federal mandate, it’s not something that Grand Valley can control at all. The 1,138 benefits that come with marriage still do not, are not enjoyed by the LGBTQ community. Even in states where marriage equality has passed. VANPORTFLIET: Do you think that, that marriage equality, is like the nber one thing that we should be pushing for, like or, theres another issue we kind of touched on in class, with gays being able to adopt and having that two parent adoption, and that was, especially powerful for me because one of my friends has two lesbian Moms, and so I’m kinda close to that and we watched a video on it and the person who was kind of thrown into that situation, was totally against it and was very close-minded I thought. and they, they even showed her with different situations with kids and adoption centers and rundown with really no place to go and then they showed this happy family with two dads, and she was still like no, that’s not right. And so I was just wondering which is that the nber one, er like what’s the nber one thing that if you again had like a wish, that you would pass. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I mean realistically, as we did strategic planning for the state wide organization we did focus groups all around the state to see what constitutions wanted and they all wanted marriage equality. But that can’t be the first thing that you go for, especially in this state so getting the antibullying bill passed had to be the first thing, so we got that passed, and it was not as we liked it but, but we got it passed. and part of the reason that it did pass was because it served Michigan well not to be the leftover state that is not passing it. So, right now we’re working on our Elliot Larson civil rights act to Page 9 �see if we can expand that. And that will give immediate relief to families, and that will directly translate to the lived experience of LGBT people to have protections and housing and on the job. And for straight people as well because you can be fired for being perceived as being gay, right. So, so working on that so as far as second parent adoption will probably be next after that, because those are some of the things that people can relate to, research shows that the happiest healthiest kids grow up with two Moms. You know, what can you say, you have two Moms your doing pretty well, and research backs it up, so I think that on the road to marriage equality there are these other markers that can really impact quality of life for LGBT people are also more obtainable and that’s how we are working it in the state. Justin to group: Okay, and questions? NIEMIEC: Not really, it was more focused on like your son but I mean, we were talking about something different. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I am happy to go back to that. Do you have anything in particular. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah, go ahead and ask it! NIEMIEC: Okay I was just wondering when you said that he was bullied in school and like when he came out to you, did you feel you guys got closer or did he like kind of back away, or like went kind of went on with that, did your relationship grow? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah, I really feel, I don’t feel like we got closer, because he’s also you know 16 years old and a guy and was needing to be like separating from his Mom a bit too. I think we’ve always been close certainly he became closer with his sister and his sister-in-law who’s like a sister to him, yeah, but it didn’t impact our relationship negatively in any way. NIEMIEC: Okay, and like did your other, like your parents or like any other family members, did, how did they react, or did they see it all along, like, like how you did, did they see the signs, or, you know? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: That was a disaster... NIEMIEC: It was? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well my Mom had passed away a few years earlier, which was for me sort of a cosmic crisis like, like why isn’t she here? Because she would have just not missed a beat and she and Ari were just like this. but on the paternal side that family is very, very, very religious and so that’s their lens of seeing the world and they did not have any space for Ari being gay…Period. So, it was a difficult time. We actually wrote them a letter so that they could sort of process, not in the moment with us, but just sort of like reorganize and then come to us and have a conversation, and try to like do damage control a bit. And, we said we know you have this way of understanding it, but there is other information too, we really want to go on this journey with you duh-duh-duh-duh-dah. And I thought for sure that you know I was keeping the living room clean thinking that they were gonna be showing up to have the conversation. 8 months of silence. And then at the end of 8 months, Ari’s grandpa sent a letter that was so scathing. Saying that Ari’s being gay was the biggest disappointment of his entire life. And he copied everyone in the family. And so that just gave, opened the flood gates for the other people to Page 10 �send their own letters, and I got 7 page, single spaced, margin-less typed letters from the family saying that we had turned our children over to Satan, and that, you know all of this really extreme, extreme stuff. So, its pretty hard to heal from that. You know, it’s pretty hard to move forward from that. I feel like, and this is a mom genetic coding thing, I feel like I can never get passed that. That that was so hurtful and so unnecessary. That I just really can’t get passed that. But Ari is more generous, and he has a relationship with those family members now. you know he could not bring his partner to their house but I think some of them have even started asking him if he has a boyfriend. I know that his grandma has started asking him. His grandfather never will. So, you know it has been, 7 years now, so. VANPORTFLIET: It’s a work in progress… SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah. NIEMIEC: Is there still tension between you and the… SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I am divorced now (laughter). But you know between my in-laws, no. (She paused) I know that they still love Ari. And I know that in their worldview they were doing the best they can. I still think that it was unnecessary and hearts that will never heal so I just have a really hard time understanding why someone would put that thing in writing and then send it to everybody else. But I know also that they feel the same way about the work that I have done. That my being public about Ari’s coming out has injured them in the same ways. That they have felt like I have publicly shamed the family in doing that. So it depends on which lens you work through. There were times when I felt like I was losing my mind, that I would actually drive to Detroit to Triangle Foundation which was a State-wide organization at the time now it’s Equality Michigan. And just say, I know I am doing the right thing, but I’ve got nothing here. I’ve got no support. I just need to hear that I’m doing the right thing. Supporting my son, you know, how crazy is that. But yeah, I think I’m hopeful that the cousins, some of the cousins, some of the cousins that my children will be able to have relationships with them. Some of them they won’t I know because they also are really pulling this hard line. VANPORTFLIET: What do you think the big problem is between the religious community, and the LGBT center? Because, I am religious but I don’t see it so cut and dry as some other like obviously some of those people who wrote those letters. I don’t believe that at all. So what do you think? Do you think that they are exclusive? Like in some parts or like I believe that they don’t have to be, but what’s kinda your take on that. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I left out the part where my ex-husband was a minister and he lost his minister license because he supported Ari. But you know, I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. And I think that people build their self-esteem based on their religious beliefs that for a lot of people it’s a journey, like I said my journey out of a difficult situation was really education. To try to figure out, oh my, gosh, how does this work? But for some people its finding religion and building a whole identity around that. And that’s how they are okay in the world. So when you start to mess with that, it becomes a situation where there’s a lot at stake. And if you pull this brick out of the wall, that’s a big brick. Because if they are feeling that homosexuality is a sin, which is their bi-line you know. Then if you pull that brick out of the wall and they change that, what else do they have to question? That’s a lot of work and that’s scary. Page 11 �So I came to understand, this is my way that I made sense of it, is that Ari’s coming out, and then my being so vocal about inequality, created a lot on anxiety in people especially in who held these fundamental beliefs. And they wanted me to not make them anxious. And if I did not stop making them anxious, then there was a consequence to that. So I understand the anxiety and the organization of a personality. In that kind of way where there’s just a lot at stake, in their being okay. And I’m sure other people see it differently and disagree with me on that. VANPORTFLIET: Well we are almost done with the hour so is there one thing you wanna leave with, it could be about the LGBT community or something you think is a big problem that we still need to overcome, maybe something we haven’t touched on yet? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I talked about how I would love for all students to be able to have a chance to examine their own privilege and to be able to come to terms with that. So that they could understand how they could leverage that in the future to create change. And so, and that just reminds me of this quote by Anias Nin and it says, we see the world not as it is, but as we are. We see people not as they are but as we are. I think I probably just butchered that but the point being that we, unless we do work to make it explicit, we only see through our own lens. And it takes some discomfort and some really being intentional to be able to see things from a point of view from a marginalized community. Or from the very complex identities that some of our students carry, like being black, disabled, and lesbian. Being able to see through that lens. And I would hope that we would focus on giving students an opportunity to challenge themselves in that way. VANPORTFLIET: Well thank you very much. I know for me it’s been very enlightening and it’s been very nice to talk to you. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a049e8e9144046e155a8d3276b6dc17e.mp3 bfa891d04f60aacf97e21248be6169d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette Title A name given to the resource Colette Seguin Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seguin Beighley, Colette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Deork, John Niemiec, Kaylee Vanportfliet, Justin Anderson, Leah Description An account of the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b46579ea044f2e0b721591fee6c367e9.pdf 862b72d3d1660f926977ac83efe112fe PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Sequin-Beighley, Colette Interviewers: James Smith, martin Feenstra and Jacob Bouwman Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/12/2011 Runtime: 00:32:29 Biography and Description Colette Seguin-Beighley is director of the LGBT resource center at Grand Valley State University. She compares her experiences growing up in San Francisco during the civil rights movement with her experiences in West Michigan. Transcript J: My name is Jacob Bouwman, and I’m here today, Tuesday the 29th at 2 p.m. with Colette at the LGBT center in Allendale Michigan, and we are here today to talk about her experience with civil rights in West Michigan. Could you give some basic information about yourself, like your name, date of birth, religion, life partner, child, children? C: (Laughter), wow, date of birth! All right, (Laughter). Colette Seguin Beighley, April 10th 1957, long before you guys were even thought of! I currently do not have a life partner, although that’s up for debate, that could be conversation, negotiating that, I have two biological children, two stepchildren and a daughter-in law, and my oldest biological child is my son Arie, and he is gay. J: And then where did you grow up? C: I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area, Berkeley, in the 60’s, so that was a very tumultuous time when lots of civil rights movements were being born, beginning with the free speech movement on the Campus of UC Berkley and going onto the civil rights movement, the black panther party in Oakland was developed and very much in the forefront during that time, and then Indians of all tribes, which is how they wanted to be named, occupied Alcatraz and demanded civil rights federally and then also during that time there was the gay rights movement in San Francisco and the women’s movement happened during that time as well, and then in my early adulthood I was living in the San Francisco bay area when AIDS hit so there was a lot going on during my growing up years. J: Yeah, that’s pretty much a discussion of what it was like growing up, but obviously it was pretty crazy. Page 1 �C: Yeah, I feel like I have that, those civil rights movements are really sort of imprinted in my DNA, and looking at the world through the lens of marginalized communities as well, questioning the status quo, and making sure not to be a guardian of the status quo is also part of what I was left with. J: Then how did you get to West Michigan, what brought you to West Michigan? C: Let’s see, when I was married to Arie and Chloe’s dad, he was from Muskegon, and so we thought this would be a great place to raise a family, and it probably is, unless you have a gay kid, then not so much. J: Then how did that make you feel about being in West Michigan? C: I was really in culture shock; obviously I didn’t do my homework to know that there were places that were so different from the San Francisco Bay area. The first thing that I noticed was that I felt as though the women’s movement had never come here. So I moved in 1989 and the way that men talked about their partners was just so patriarchal, so misogynistic, and also I saw a lot of bigotry and just tremendous homophobia, so it was a really difficult move for me and I handled that by sort of going underground, and my friends, we would always say, “we’re not from around here,” and it was people like from a different country or a different state, who had also relocated to West Michigan who brought through difference, and a different world view and I just sort of was under the radar until Arie came out and that was really a turning point for me, and I felt like I had to give voice, I couldn’t be silent anymore. Ji: Do you have any specific experiences, or like crazy examples of how you found out that this area was really homophobic and stuff like that, do you have an examples? C: Well, I remember some friends of ours who were really our best friends, we thought lets go to Saugatuck for the weekend, you know, lets just go hang out, a great little town on the lake, fun little cottagey sort of town, and they were like, noooooo! We cannot go down there; there are queers down there! And then I was like *incredulous face*. At that point I had, had many dear friends whom I loved so much die of AIDS, so that was not only so offensive, it was just shocking, it was really like water being thrown in my face, and then also, I had seen probably three or four families have family members who had come out, and they were never integrated into the family, it was always problematic, and they were ejected, they never stayed around in the area. This was on the lakeshore now, I was living in the Spring Lake, Grand Haven area, so that was my experience before Arie came out. I knew that was the culture that I was living in. And plus, this is very personal, but my ex-husband was also a minister in the Wesleyan Church, and he has a PhD in marriage and family therapy, so he had a private practice, but he worked within that denomination, so I’m not really a church person, I wasn’t, I didn’t grow up in that world but you know, I would go, and until the homophobia from the pulpit became so much that I would blow out of there, and I think we landed in 3 different churches and I remember one time him saying to me you make it very hard for me to be a pastor. I am like this so it is very hard for me to hear this kind of hate I can’t sit there through that! So yeah, there was a lot of dissonance. J: And then you said that was your husband? C: Yes Page 2 �J: Were there any books or films or speeches or newspapers that influenced your thinking about gender relations at all? C: Well, gender relations, that’s an interesting way of to put it. Ok, so let me go down that very sort of generic gender relations thing. So in the early 80’s when I met my soon to be husband, I was coming from a place where the world, in the world that I lived in, people didn’t really feel the need to get married, they were really challenging that institution and saying that it was based on patriarchy and was institutionally oppressive, so I knew lots of families where the kids had two last names, and they were never married but they were happy families who were growing up together, so then I began a relationship with someone from the Midwest who had a very traditional upbringing, very church-based as well and that was not something he could really tolerate, so what he could tolerate was getting married and so I went down that road, so that challenged me in lots of ways, you know I think that initially I did not believe in the institution, then I bought into the institution, and not in any way to villainify my ex-husband because I have a great relationship with him, but the institution I think, is founded on a wrong premise and I just don’t see that its necessary, it’s the state valuing some relationships over other relationships and we get lots of benefits if we buy into that right? We get 1138 federal benefits that come with marriage, that unmarried partners do not have so why does the state get to say which relationships are valid and which aren’t? J: And then, you answered the next question kind of, but it was do you remember any family friends or individuals in the community that were discriminated against either formally or informally, but were there any examples in education or in employment, and you said socially, made one, but like in education or employment at all, did you see any discrimination at all? C: In California when I was growing up or here? J: Either one. C: Ok, well, I moved to, I grew up in the projects, and then when I was in 2nd grade we moved to a suburban neighborhood, a low income neighborhood, but it was a suburban neighborhood out of the projects and the first kid I met his name was Bruce, so im in 2nd grade at this point, and we grew up together, and he was sort of small in stature and he had the misfortune of the fact that his mom had remarried. He was a child from her previous marriage so his stepdad was also a retired marine and Bruce was not his biological child so Bruce was fairly effeminate and there was tremendous gender policing that went on with his dad and his dad would beat him. It was so traumatizing. He would just yank him out of the room and just start beating him. So I’d maybe be 10 feet away, just a wall separating us and I can still just hear blood-curdling screams in my head. It was so awful. It was so awful. So then my relationship with Bruce of course continued and we would walk to school together and he was often the victim of bullies, and I was like painfully shy when I was growing up so I wasn’t someone who would like jump in and break things up because I was just overwhelmed by the whole experience, and I remember one time he actually even had a broken leg, and just always being bullied, but just him looking up from the ground at me and saying Colette go for help. And there is something about that that has become sort of a life mission for me like I’m still trying to go for help for Bruce and then to bring that to your question of education, the principal would always blame Bruce for the fact Page 3 �that he was getting bullied. “Well if you’d just man up, if you would just you know act more like you’re supposed to then this wouldn’t be happening to you” so Bruce dropped out of school when we were, before our junior year in high school and he was the very first, and he lived on the street, totally on the street in San Francisco, just you know how survival, just trying to survive, he was the first person I ever knew who died of AIDS, it was at a time when the disease was very, very new and we were actually whispering it, you would not even talk about it, you’d just whisper it, it was so scary and so much shame was around it, just a horrible horrible, horrible time, so I feel like that really was my experience of knowing Bruce has impacted me in many ways. Ji: And then, what about like education and your employment here? I assume that it’s not as bad obviously, but are there any examples that influenced you more? C: Discrimination at Grand Valley specifically you’re talking about? Yeah, there are certainly examples of discrimination at Grand Valley that are part of Grand Valley’s history. Grand Valley has quite a history, I’m going to give you a DVD of the history, there’s one chapter in there about Grand Valley, I think we have finally come to a place where we are on the road to being great allies to the LGBT community, but still trying to figure out what that means. But the university has had a lot of bumps along the way and a lot of people have been hurt. It’s been a long process. Now the university is very committed to the community and we’re always trying to figure out more what that means. J: I definitely feel like if anybody here like talked about saying queer or saying anything bad like automatically I know a lot of people from Grand Valley are against like they view that they’re against them like it’s so out of the ordinary not to be ok with it, like I’m kind of happy that Grand Valley’s that ways now, like I don’t know it’s just like in high school, you saw, I always saw like bullying and stuff like that, but here if anybody were to say something, it would be like you can’t say that here. That’s why I’m kind of happy to be at a place like this, because people know that it’s not right and like they’re the ones that are shunned, not the ones that are coming out that are gay or bi or anything. C: That’s good to hear. You’re a member of the Greek community right? J: Yeah. C: Yeah, my daughter Chloe, she’s… J: Oh yeah! C: Are you a member of the Greek community? Ji: No I am not. C: Well a couple years ago the Greek community came to us and asked if we would do Greek ally training, so we’ve been doing Greek allies and advocates now, and we have nearly 300 Greeks who are trained to be allies and that’s so different from other college campuses where the Greek community is not friendly to the LGBT communities so I think that’s a wonderful thing about Grand Valley. Page 4 �J: I mean, I can’t get too involved just because of like rowing and everything, but I mean, I know a lot of Greeks are trying to work toward that too. But anyways, who are your civil rights heroes locally? C: Locally? You know, ok, I do have a hero locally. Doug VanDoren, who is the pastor of Plymouth Congregational United Church of Christ, is a wonderful civil rights leader in our area. He is a great champion of marginalized communities whether its refugees whether its women and he was one of the first people to come out for the LGBT community and that’s in this DVD that I just gave you as well. He’s in there. But he talks about how there was a Byron Center teacher who was outed. There’s a whole chapter about Jerry Crane, and that’s the name of the instructor, the Byron Center teacher, he was outed, and it created this firestorm throughout Byron Center, there was a school board meeting where 800 people attended and pretty much Jerry Crane was on trial, he’d had a commitment ceremony, and his students got wind of it, and then it got to the parents, and then the American Family Society stepped in, and started handing out letters and videos to every mailbox of parents and they were just really sensationalized videos of like gay pride parades and they take the most extreme pictures and it was really horrible experience so they did not fire Jerry because the risk of litigation was too high, but he did quit at the end of the year. That next year he died of a stress related heart attack at 32 years old. So during that time when there was this pastor who you’ll see in this video because that story made 20-20 so there’s a clip of the 20-20 story on this DVD. This pastor from Byron Center was just so hateful toward the gay community, so Doug VanDoren stepped up and stood in solidarity with Jerry Crane’s pastor who was supportive of him and got other pastors on board so they had like, I don’t know, 50 or 100 pastors who had signed on in support of Jerry Crane and his church so you know Doug just came out of nowhere and did this organizing, and then around prop 2 which said, which is our anti-marriage equality constitutional amendment here in Michigan, he also organized a group called the “Concerned Clergy” which is, you know, local pastors who did not want discrimination written into our constitution. So he’s a great organizer, he’s a wonderful speaker, he’s very very very articulate and just has this great heart, and his congregation is extremely welcoming and affirming of the LGBT community. J: What about nationally? C: Nationally, well let’s see. I’m going to try to think of one that isn’t just the basic one. Hmmm. Currently I just really admire the work of Incite! Its women of color who are doing organizing work around police brutality and they’re doing it outside of the non-profit world. They’re doing grassroots organizing that isn’t tied to professionalizing their work by becoming non-profit. It’s not tied to funders in any way. They can speak their truth and not worry about losing funding and they’re really amazing heroes. I’ve recently this year been reading feminist literature by women of color so Angela Davis, Belle Hookes, reading those works, and I think they’re amazing heroes of mine. It’s the women’s movement was erroneously framed from a white perspective. White middle class perspective and it left out women of color, women of lower socio-economic classes and so these women developed their own voices and that’s been really instructional for me this year. Of course all the basics, you know, MLK, but I’m trying to talk about some other voices as well. J: You kind of talked about how, like how did your thinking about your identity change growing up? You said your son was a big factor, but was there anything else? Was there any other major factors or experiences or anything? Page 5 �C: *pause* hmmm…Interesting question. I’m a first generation college student from my family and as I said, grew up in the projects, so come from a background where going to college was just frowned upon because it would make you snooty, and so then I went on the get an advanced degree which is even more sort of an act of betrayal actually and I think that growing up in those roots has been impactful because I don’t have an elite upbringing. People never think I grew up in the projects. They always think I had a privileged upbringing. I don’t know why but that’s what they think and so I’m happy that I have had that experience even though at times it was harrowing, it just widens my view of the world a little bit more. J: What kind of work do you do now? C: Well I’m the director of the LGBT Resource Center. I also sit on the board for Equality Michigan, which is our state anti-violence and advocacy organization serving the LGBT community. I also am involved with the National Consortium of Higher Education Resource Center Professionals. Way to long in name, I know *laughs* but it’s all the LGBT campus resource centers and a regional representative with that, and what else? Read the question again. J: It was just what do you do? What is your work that you do? C: So now my work changes every day. The mission of the LGBT resource center is to educate and empower students to lead authentic lives, to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to work for social justice, so all our work is framed around that, and I always think of that in terms of pushing out a space to create the greater visibility for the LGBT community, but also to mainstream their issues. I think of our office as serving 25,000 students on campus, not just the LGBT community because these students who are from the dominant group live in a society where a whole group of people don’t have their rights so that is their issue as well, this is not just an LGBT issue, this is everybody’s issue. So we work with students and help them along their developmental journey. We work with faculty and staff as well, we support them, we work with the institution to make sure our policies and practices are supportive of the community, we work in the community, probably more so than other offices, because our students, faculty, staff, alums all go out into the community to work and live and that’s a community where they don’t have their rights so our work expands in that direction as well. J: And then, it asks if you could tell like a story, about how like, one of the specific ways the organizations that you’re part of, is there a story you can just tell about one of them, just anything like that? C: Well I’ll tell you a couple different student experiences, I don’t know if these are going to fit, but we had one student bounce into campus at 9 o’clock move-in morning, and he had moved in at 8 o’clock and then had made a beeline for the LGBT resource center, and he walked in and was just like exploding, so happy, and I went “Hi, I’m Colette” and he goes “I know, I know all of your names because I’ve been studying the website, I’m just so happy to be here” and I was just like “wow this is so great, you know”. The next day I get into work, and Carrie tells me that student is here, he’s very, very, very distressed, he’s out in Kirkhof somewhere, and I’m like oh my gosh did something happen to him. I find him and he says “I’ve made a terrible mistake, I should never have come here, this is not a safe place, and I just need Page 6 �to leave.” I go “Oh my gosh did something happen?” “No I just know this is not a safe place. Inside your office is safe, but not out here” I go “So nothing happened?” “No.” “I don’t think you’ve had any experience of being safe in different places. Why don’t you just come into the center and hang out with us today and do some work for us?” So he happily stuffed envelopes for faculty members with our programming in it and was happy as a clam, but it was interesting because at that time we had our little barrier up here to create a cubby space and it felt like we just placed him inside a cocoon for about 4 hours and he just stuffed his envelopes and we were chatting and doing our stuff and students were coming in and out and he was a part of that too. After 4 hours the student that I met the first day, came to my door and just said “I’m completely over it, I don’t know what happened. I have my feet back on the ground; I’m ready to go out again, thank you for letting me stay here.” I think that’s a good example of the resource center, you know, from that perspective of being a safety net for students who have high risk, we’ve had students walk into our center who’ve had bandaged wrists from attempted suicide. We have students who have to walk over to the counseling center because they’re in such distress. Another story is, we had a freshmen come in. On our balcony there’s a big 16 foot banner during the first weeks of school that says “The LGBT resource center welcomes you to campus.” Then it says “Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender” because so many students don’t know what LGBT is. So he came in and said “I saw the banner and I stopped and I took a picture of it, and I couldn’t believe that I was in a place that had that kind of banner” So it was very sweet. And then we had a straight student come in at the beginning of the school year and she said “I came here because of this center, and I don’t identify as being a member of the community, but when I came on my campus tour, and I saw that Grand Valley had an LGBT resource center, I thought this is the kind of place I want to go to school at. It was just really a sweet story, also again of how our presence is educational to all the student body not just, it sends a clear message, that no matter where straight students are on their journey of being an ally or not being an ally, the message is clear that Grand Valley supports this community. There are a few stories. Ji: Can you describe exactly what an ally is when you describe that? I’m not really sure what that is. C: An ally is someone who is supportive of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer community and that is on the continuum, right, so it’s not just, you’ve passed over the threshold, now you’re an ally. It’s a developmental journey, that you’re really always on, so it could be that the journey started like this: You used to tell homophobic jokes, but now you don’t tell homophobic jokes anymore, because you’re moving along the journey, so now, you don’t say anything though when the homophobic jokes go on, so then you’re moving along in the journey, and now maybe you feel like, I’m just not ok with that anymore, I’m going to say something, and then maybe you move along farther and you start to incorporate friendships with people from the community. Then move along a little farther, and you include language that does not exclude the community in the way you live your life, like maybe you start saying partner instead of husband or wife because you’re aware that not everybody is heterosexual, but we live in a heterosexist society, so we’re taught to think that way, and then just to being an all-out radical ally at the other end of the continuum who is advocating for LGBT rights on campus, off campus, you know, making the commitment to the community as really part of your life. Make sense? Ji: Yeah, that makes sense Page 7 �C: So it’s not just like… and then as, I think that as you’re going on, you can’t ever say that you’ve really arrived, because you’re always becoming more and more aware of the ways that people are oppressed, you know once you’re an ally to one community it opens your eyes to the ways that other communities experience discrimination. J: What, are there any specific ways that you think Grand Valley needs to improve? C: You’re going to make me say it on tape huh? *laughs* J: *laughs* Have they improved? C: I think Grand Valley has improved tremendously, and I think Grand Valley wants to continue to improve and the intent is to make the needs of students, not just LGBT students, but straight students in educating them to be critical thinkers who can address injustice and create change and I think that is what a liberal education is about, so I think that Grand Valley is very committed to the process, it doesn’t mean that we’re perfect, it doesn’t mean that we’re there. There’s always, always more work to be done. J: Yeah. Were you involved… you said you went to college and further than that. Were you involved in any organizations in college at all? I don’t remember if you ever said. C: No, I really didn’t become an advocate until after college. I had lots of friends who were involved in Central American politics. Lots of friends who were involved in pro-choice efforts, but I think my son coming out and learning about the violence that he suffered before he came out really radicalized me. Ji: I think we learned a lot. Thank you so much. END OF INTERVIEW Page 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59d568b21439bc197183beab094f0fdb.mp3 fd5212fe749809ca0e65f17d61748bb6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette_1 Title A name given to the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seguin-Beighley, Colette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, James Feenstra, Martin Bouwman, Jacob Description An account of the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley is director of the LGBT resource center at Grand Valley State University. She compares her experiences growing up in San Francisco during the civil rights movement with her experiences in West Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives