810 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/612f06b4053895de77cada624baa1853.mp4 002e39c10f8fd4bd1c376a9594793f78 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7a122a652de439360ed11eb8a0f10363.pdf 1b3ae003246b07bff37cdbd6dc104be9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Richard “Dick” Rossi Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: Dick, we'd like to start off with this: what were you doing prior to your first contact with the AVG? DICK ROSSI: I was instructing in the Navy in Pensacola and I was instructing in a primary squadron, and I'd been doing that for almost a year when the recruiters came around, and of course, there was an opportunity to get away. One of the things that the people are like when you're first learning to fly, you keep going through more and more advance airplanes, and when you finally get your wings, you've flown, as they call them, service type planes, now you want to get out into the fleet so you can fly nothing but the heavy equipment and the powerful equipment. When you get assigned back as an instructor, to teaching, again you're back into the ones you started with instead of getting to fly that, and so I think there were a bunch of us in that category, we were really eager to get out and do something that was a little more interesting. FRANK BORING: What were you doing prior to your first contact with the AVG? DICK ROSSI: When I first heard about the AVG, that they were recruiting pilots for China, I was instructing primary training down in Pensacola and I'd been doing that for about a year. Naturally, I was anxious to get out into the fleet to fly service planes and do more combat type training than instructing in primary, and so this was a good �opportunity to do something like that, and I think there were quite a few in our group down there in Pensacola at the time that kind of the same feeling that they wanted to get out and do something that was just a little more challenging. FRANK BORING: How did you first hear about the opportunity in China? DICK ROSSI: It was kind of a long-winded thing. I had heard that the Dutch were hiring people to train their air force down in the Netherlands – I mean the East Indies, and so I wrote to the Dutch Consul and tried to get information on it, and he advised me that they had all they wanted and they appreciated the interest, but there weren't any openings at the time, because they had had quite a few of the navy pilots who were trained in flying boats. So some of the people that knew I was interested in this, pointed out an article, I think it was in Life Magazine, a very small article that said that pilots were being recruited to go to China. It didn't give much information. You gonna get the telephone? FRANK BORING: Let's have the second part again. DICK ROSSI: Where were we? FRANK BORING: We'll start right from top. Basically what we want to know is, how did you hear about the AVG and what happened after that? DICK ROSSI: He showed me this article in Life Magazine and it said that they were recruiting pilots in the services, and mentioned the army and the navy, so this friend of mine, he was from California also, Rickets, we sent in a letter to the Bureau of Naval Operations saying that we would like to be involved in this, said that we'd like get in on it, and the way the things runs in the navy, when you have a request or a letter to go to Washington, it has to go through your squadron and your Base Commander and all this stuff. We got okayed from our squadron personnel leader, and when it got down to the base, we got called up on the carpet and told them that �there was no such thing, the navy didn't do this type of thing, and whereas they have to forward your letter, if they want to, they can write "Disapproved" on it but they still have to forward it. But they advised us to tear it up, which, being new ensigns, we did. But in the meantime, the same weekend, the executive in my squadron, had a father who was an admiral, and he was going up that weekend in Washington to visit his dad. He knew I'd put this letter through, he was the one that had to sign it, and so when he came back he told me that, yes, this was going on. He said, "I think you're crazy to go but I'll put in a good word for you," and I said – in the meantime, they called us down to the Commandant and told us to tear the letters up, so he said, "Okay, that's navy procedure," Later, because of our interest in it, somebody told us that this wasn't being done to the service it was being done to a private organization, and they had the address which was Intercontinental Aviation in New York, and that was Bill Pawley's organization. So then Rick and I both wrote to Intercontinental and told them that we were interested in it, and we got a letter back from them saying they were going to have recruiters at Pensacola in a few weeks, and that they would look us up when they got there, so when they arrived down at Pensacola, they had authorization to come on the base, post notices of the different squadrons, and they scheduled a meeting for a Sunday afternoon downtown at the San Carlos Hotel. So Rick and I of course, went down there. There was a whole flock of other pilots, we had a whole roomful, we must have had 50 or 60 pilots down there. They had already put my name and Rick's name down on their list and we were the first two on the list. During the course of explaining what it was all about, we were told it was go out and protect the Burma Road, that Roosevelt had okayed it, but because of the neutrality laws that we had to resign our commission and go out, but we would be allowed to go out, that we would be allowed to come back in without any loss of seniority when our year's contract was up, and they signed up 36 pilots that day. But unfortunately they didn't all get to go. Our Commandant at that weekend was out in the North Atlantic with Churchill where they had their meeting out in the North Atlantic, �and we signed off that weekend, we got our discharges and our resignations approved and turned in our flight gear, and when he got back on Sunday night, Monday morning and heard about this, he cancelled everything before we could get away. So he had quite a bit of clout, he was – Captain Read he was the first guy to fly the ocean in the NC4 and he had quite a bit of clout, so he cancelled everything, the wires and the telephone calls started going back and forth between us and Intercontinental Corporation in New York and they started getting hold of Washington, and the next thing you know, they worked out a compromise. They said, out of 36 you'll have to leave half of them, 18 can go and 18 can't. So they just cut off the last 18 guys that signed up and since Rick and I had our name at the top, we were right on the list and they just took 'em in order the order they'd signed up, and so the rest of us got to go. FRANK BORING: (Inaudible) DICK ROSSI: I don't know if you remember but there was a big pre-war meeting between Roosevelt and Churchill out in the North Atlantic and our Commandant was one of the aides with Roosevelt on that, and while he was out there, was the same weekend that we signed up to go to China and we turned in our equipment and our flight gear and filled out our resignation certificates. By the time that he got back on Sunday night and hear about this, he cancelled everything and they got on the phone between some of our group and the company in New York and Washington, so they finally settled on a compromise, and agreed to let half of us go and the other half were denied the right to go out. It was similar I guess they had some sort of a problem similar to that when Arnold told that they were gonna take a hundred pilots, because originally they were talking about getting them all out of the air corps because the air corps were the only ones that had people who flew the P-40's and Arnold made the remark that if he lost a hundred pilots it would ruin his whole air force, and he was told by the President that if a hundred pilots would ruin his air force, he didn't have an air force. So, I guess �they were in that same category. Because they were expanding as you know – in '41 the expansion program was already on, so they didn't want to lose instructors because they were building up the number of cadets and everything, but I don't think our small group made that much difference. FRANK BORING: Did you have any idea what you were getting into, what did you expect of them, what made you decide to go? DICK ROSSI: When they gave their spiel pitch on what we were supposed to do, it was to defend the Burma Road which was the last supply line or supply rock open to China. So we were sort of given the impression that the Japanese would be sending bombers over there and that it was up to us to chase them away and see that they didn't close the Burma Road. Some people may have different deals. They talked about this $500 bonus, I don't even remember them mentioning this in the beginning. It wasn't in anything that we signed in our contract with them, and ostensibly because we weren't supposed to be going to war or anything in that category, we were just signing up to work for the airplane factory. Now this company in New York built Pawley's, had built and operated a small aircraft factory out in southwest China and it was called Central Aviation Manufacturing Company. Now that's where we were assigned, they paid our salary, we just called them CAMCO which was their initials. Our contracts were with CAMCO, our pay came from CAMCO. Indirectly though, I guess our pay was financed by the US Government Lend Lease Program because it was just about that time that they were making more aid available to China because the Japs were causing some trouble elsewhere out there, that the government began to worry about letting them get too strong and figured there should be some kind of force, something to blow 'em down. So I think everybody went out there with pretty much of an idea that we would be going against Japanese bombers mostly and of course, we didn't think we were going to be out there to be World War II either. �FRANK BORING: What made you decide to go? DICK ROSSI: I don't know, I'd been out in the Orient before, it interested me. I think one of my main reasons for going was to get a different experience than I was having in the navy at Pensacola, and I also thought that if I have to go out there and put a year in duty out there, that when I come back to the navy I would have an advantage over having not gone out there and it would put me a little bit ahead and a little bit more of a better position as far as the navy went. FRANK BORING: What was the process in your leaving Pensacola and then going to China, the actual process? DICK ROSSI: They okayed our resignation and we severed our relationship by we had our travel pay home and then we were ordered to report to San Francisco within a certain time, because this particular group was almost all coming out of Pensacola as I was being. There were a few others that weren't. We all had orders to report to San Francisco, my home was in San Francisco so I just went out to my house, my parent's house, and Ricketts who came from the bay area too, we'd been at the University of California in Berkeley, he went to his home. All the rest of the group went to a hotel in downtown San Francisco and we had, I don't know, how many days there before the ship sailed, but they kept in contact with us and gave us updates on the sailing and this sort of thing. But most of the guys who were out there and were away from home, spent most of their time in the local bar down there. I guess a few shiploads before them had done the same so they were pretty well known at this bar downtown. FRANK BORING: The next step was, you got onto the ship, what was the trip like? DICK ROSSI: We boarded this Dutch ship, we were on the Boschfontein, and I think that in our group there were maybe 30 or 32 people together. �Some air force pilots were on it a few that had come from Pensacola, we had a few ground personnel, and we had a couple of Chinese personnel and it was kind of a typical combination passenger freighter ship. We left San Francisco and headed out. Of course, it wasn't really new to me. I hadn't been on a ship in the navy but I'd spent five years in the merchant marine, so I was familiar with being at sea, and since Ricketts and my name were on the top of the lists, by some lucky coincidence, we got a nice cabin topside, instead of one of the ones down below. So we had really nice quarters on board, the food was great. The only other passengers were some missionaries and a few Chinese, and it was one of those deals where you don't have much to do. The guys were – not much to do except lay in the sun or swim or go to the bar and the first few days there the weather wasn't all that great that you wanted to go to the pool, so I guess the bar did a pretty good business. When we got to Honolulu, our first stop, we were there just during the day, I took the opportunity to go and visit one or two of the friends that I had there during the days of my merchant ship days, and some of us went to a barber's ship and got our hair clipped real short and it turned out like most, a big part of them did, and most of the others when they come back on board, had the ship's barber give them a short haircut, and we had one marine with us, Curt Smith, who was a Captain, he was the highest rank of anyone who signed up in our group, so he was put in charge of the group, and he refused to get a haircut, get his hair cut down, and so one night we all got a hold of him, pinned him down and cut it for him. It looked like a bunch of mice had been in there. Of course, he had a few band aids around here and there where while he was struggling, the scissors slipped a few times. When we got down to – usually when you cross the Equator, they have an initiation ceremony when they turn the pollywogs into shell backs and those who have cross the Equator already are the ones who do the initiation. There were only three of us who had crossed the Equator before, myself, Charlie Bond and Lou Bishop. So we needed a couple more guys to help us out on this, so we took the two biggest guys we had, Tex Hurst and Gunvordahl, old Zipper �Gunvordahl, and made them act as the policemen. We had a pretty good ceremony – the missionaries stayed out of sight pretty much that day. Another thing, while were on board the ship, we also used to stand watches of the crow's nest. We'd line up the schedule for the day and we'd each take a two hour shift during the daylight hours and go up in the crow's nest for an anti-submarine watch because the Japs did have submarines and the Germans actually had submarines sometimes out there. We did have a submarine deal and we were blacked out at night. You couldn't smoke a cigarette on deck or anything like that. All the portholes were blacked out and the doors were doubled with curtains so you couldn't open the door and let light get out. Other than that, it was kind of a pleasant trip, because we stayed in Surabaya for seven days, two weeks excuse me. We were in Java for two weeks and we were between Surabaya and Batavia, because they had a lot of cargo to load and unload, and the ships, even though they're passenger ships, they're primarily freighters and that category. While we were there we ran into a bunch of our friends from the navy who were there instructing the Dutch, because at that time was under Dutch control, and we had a chance to go over to Bali and visit the island of Bali. These were all nice interludes and then we were at Singapore and we spent time at Singapore several days and had a chance to go round and see all the sights in Singapore. A handful of us got an invitation to go out and visit the Sultan of Johor in his palace. We were in the Raffles Hotel one day and I saw him come in with a group, and I recognized him from a previous trip I had out there in the merchant marines and so I sent him a note telling him we were American pilots, we were going out to China and we'd like to be able to go and visit his palace. So he came over and bought us all drinks, and one of the boys came in there about the time he'd finished and he said, "What are you going to have to drink?" and he said, "No thanks, I'm not drinking," He all of a sudden looked at him and said, "The last guy that didn't take a drink I offered him, his head was floating down the river. He said, "Okay, I'll have a drink." Anyway, he gave me a nice hand written letter to take out to his sentry on duty, and he said to me, �"You'll be wanting to keep this letter as a souvenir, but it has instructions that the officer on duty is supposed to take it away from you." Unfortunately, we didn't have copy machines in those days, or I'd have had a copy of it. But we did go out there and he… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rossi_Dick_1991-02-06_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rossi, John Richard "Dick" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Dick Rossi interview (video and transcript, 1 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of John Richard "Dick" Rossi by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Dick Rossi served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader for the 1st Squadron, "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after being discharged from service in the US Navy, where he had been assigned as a flight instructor at Pensacola Naval Air Station. He arrived in Burma in November 1941 and began training on the P-40 airplanes, but had not yet completed his training when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Though officially attached to the 1st Squadron, he was also temporarily assigned to both the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons. In this tape, Rossi discusses his time instructing in the Navy prior to being recruited with the American Volunteer Group, in addition to their journey overseas from San Francisco aboard the Boschfontein. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ea192ff72fc0a44e2c309dd1bd3a563b.mp4 780219a890680c30a589002bccf0f84f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b0d52e6751925d52215eca1996d3acf.pdf 3a84989b8043a0a75cbcee2913a1daec PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Richard “Dick” Rossi Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] DICK ROSSI: Our crews out there were pretty interesting crews. We went on board the ship, we were all supposed to be sort of incognito and around San Francisco, we didn't go out there as pilots, we went out there as a whole bunch of different things. Boyington was a missionary, I was a skilled laborer, we had farmers, and we had a little bit of everything on the list. Nobody was really paying that much attention to us, I guess, except possibly one bar in San Francisco and the people on board the ship weren't exactly sure who we were at first, but I think after a week or so watching us, they decided we weren't missionaries, though I believe they had made the mistake once of offering Boyington conduct services, and he got out of that one all right. But it didn't take them too long to – they started to stay a little bit to themselves, but there were a few that got a little friendly, and were telling us somewhat about the Orient, most of them had been out there before. There were also amongst them a couple of navy pilots who were still on their way to Surabaya, so we had kind of a different kind of group there and nobody really questioned us very much. I guess the Japs probably heard and knew we were on the way, I don't know, they had enough spies going around, but it didn't seem to be much of a deal. We were told naturally, not to discuss this and tell anybody where we were or why we were going there. I don't know just how much curiosity evoked from other people. �FRANK BORING: What were your first recollections of your arrival? You arrived in Toungoo first, is that right? Or Rangoon? DICK ROSSI: Rangoon. After we left Singapore, the ship went up to Rangoon and we pulled in at Rangoon, and then we had to go through the customs clearance and all this stuff and we were met by some members from the group and we were gathered and put on a train to ride up to Toungoo which was maybe 180 miles or so north from Rangoon. Somewhere along the way – I didn't take part in looking around town or anything like that because when I arrived I already had a telegram that my dad had passed away while I was on the ship. So I was feeling too much to go out and celebrate and look around much, so I just waited and got my baggage and boarded the train with the rest of us, and we arrived up in Toungoo in the evening. FRANK BOSSI: If you could go over again the first AVG, second AVG, the third AVG and what happened in Cherlamar [?]. DICK ROSSI: When we were recruited amongst some of the information that we were told was that – we signed up as the first American Volunteer Group and we were a fighter group. We were told the second American Volunteer Group would be a bomber group, and that the third group – all three were authorized would be another fighter group and they would be following us out there. Part of the deal that we understood was that they had planned to do some bombing against the Japanese, naturally not as Americans, or not as American Air Force, but this information was generally known throughout our group and Charlie Mott was told by General Chennault that he would be put in charge of the bomber group when they arrived. They were on the high seas on their way out when Pearl Harbor happened so they were diverted to Australia and put back in the air force. I don't know if they were all army or not in that group. �FRANK BORING: Who were the first people, the official representatives from the AVG that you met when you first got there? Was it Chennault right away or…? DICK ROSSI: I didn't see Chennault right away, he wasn't there at the time when we arrived. He'd been up in China and we were met by some of the members who had come down, some of the squadron leaders, and some of the people from CAMCO. At that time, CAMCO was pretty active in looking after the people, seeing that they arrived and were sent up to Toungoo, that they were paid or whatever they needed. Almost everybody ran short of money by the time they got there. We didn't start out with too much in our pockets, and then during stays over in Singapore and Java, we spent more than we had, and so everybody was a little hard pressed for money and CAMCO had someone down there to take care of that so that we got advances and whatever. They sent us on up to Toungoo and when we arrived at Toungoo it was late in the evening and everybody, most everybody had someone there they knew because they were either class mates or squadron mates or something like that. So you'd run into somebody you knew and you didn't even know that they had gone to Burma. Like I'd run into a class mate, I'd been with him in Pensacola but then he'd gone to the fleet and I didn't know he'd signed up. Everybody it seemed ran into somebody that they'd known previously in the service. FRANK BOSSI: What were your first impressions when you arrived in Toungoo? What were the first things that were going through your mind? DICK ROSSI: We were all a little bit surprised that we were gonna be in Toungoo, because we all thought we were going directly to China. China was supposed to have everything set up for us, our quarters and living accommodations, and they were behind schedule on all this stuff and a lot of people were arriving, they didn't have their living accommodations ready, and they made an arrangement with the British that we could borrow and use this field in Burma for training purposes, and as kind of a waiting place also until our �quarters and accommodations in China were prepared. So we were all surprised at that, but we were lucky because we got there late in November and we weren't there much over a month. Some of the boys had been in that area since the beginning of the summer, and accommodations were fairly primitive and GI style. We were living in one big, long barracks, the whole squadron, our squadron was all in one long open barracks, but it wasn't much worse than we had as cadets I guess, other than the mosquitoes and the bugs and the scorpions and stuff, but it wasn't all that different and we weren't all that old that we were worried about it. A few were, there were guys who turned around and went home as soon as they saw the place. I think most of us were curious to see what the future held, what was going happen later, what it would be like in China. Because we'd heard some real favorable stories about our accommodations in China that we were gonna have, quarters that were built down along the lake, and we'd have real pleasant housing and that there'd be cabaret girls up there for dancing and parties, that would be up from Shanghai and Hong Kong. A lot of this, of course, didn't materialize and they ended up converting a university into one of the hostels and the other one was a small hostel that was out near the field, it was a whole series of small adobe buildings, but they were new, they had just been repaired for something like this, I don't know exactly what it was. The Chinese they took care of all our accommodations and food and housing in China. They had a group called the War Service Area Corps and they handled all that part of it. But when we were down in Toungoo it was a little more complicated, I don't know exactly how it was done originally because I guess CAMCO was responsible for the food, the British were supplying the field and the housing, and when later we went down to Rangoon to help the British, they also supplied the housing and the food down there. FRANK BOSSI: How was the relationship between the AVG and the British? DICK ROSSI: With the British pilots and the British RAF personnel, we got along pretty well. We didn't do too well with the higher up British �or the colonials, as we called them, the Colonel Blimps. These guys were guys who were mostly cast-offs that couldn't make it in the service and they'd farm them out into the empire. They were the ones in charge and as everyone saw later, how woefully inadequate they were, and they were the dregs really. But the actual RAF people that we worked with in Burma, we got along very well with them. A lot of them had been in the Battle of Britain already and had combat experience and some pretty rough times. The pilots that we were associated with came from everywhere. There were Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, English, they were from all over. We got along very well with them. The ground personnel, the enlisted personnel were British, they were very good to get along with because they – we treated them a lot better I think than they were used to and they became very friendly with us, and they just wanted to work for us – be assigned to us. FRANK BOSSI: When you first arrived there, a lot of you did not have the training experience, specifically before you experienced – what did you talk about – Chennault taught kindergarten I guess. If you could begin by saying when you first met Chennault and then go into perhaps an explanation of what it was like to train under Chennault. DICK ROSSI: I don't have that much background as many of them did because we arrived there very close to the middle of November, and as you know, Pearl Harbor came along the 8th December up there. When Chennault came – when we first met him and he was introduced to us, I think everybody was impressed by him. He was sort of commanding man. He seemed to know what he was talking about, he had a nice attitude. He could make you want to do your most, your best for him. The training that we had, of course, because of our late arrival, and originally Chennault had talked about running a kindergarten. It turned out that very few of the pilots who were signed up and went out there had every flown a P-40. As a matter of fact many of us had never even seen a P-40. The navy didn't �have any and I didn't see any, and I don't know how many of the army pilots had flown them, but it was very few. So they had to get used to it, and amongst that group we had pilots from everything. We had B17 pilots, we had patrol boat pilots, we had sea plane pilots, we had dive bomber pilots, and we had a minimum really of fighter pilots. The ones who were most likely in our group, or the navy group, to be fighter pilots were the ones who had come out of the marine corps but then as it turned out the majority of the pilots there were from the navy and the marine corps. So that wasn't that much army background. On the other hand, the only terminology that we had about the airplane was from the army boys, so we immediately were calling it P-40 most of the time, and when we were in Rangoon it was frequently called the Tomahawk because that's what the RAF and British pilots called it. It was a matter of getting used to the airplane, and since it's a single seater, you have to go up and make your first flight by yourself. We had quite a lot of them, not so much when I was there but the group that had been there already had smashed an awful lot of airplanes in proportion, figuring that we were already trained pilots and had already had their wings, that they didn't break up a large percentage in the training program. When one of the group in our last shipment broke up an airplane, the old man come out and said nobody could ride in the P-40 until they took up advanced training and had a few hops in the advanced trainer, which was a two seater type, like the AT6 or the SNJ, and so that slowed things down a little bit, because when that was out of commission, you couldn't get a ride in it. At any rate, they worked it out that we all took some hops in that, which was a good idea because it got you back. We'd been out to sea for six or seven weeks and the guys hadn't flown for several months, and a lot of us weren't familiar with that airplane. That airplane flew along real nicely, but when you chopped the throttle on it, the nose just fell right up. They aimed for the ground immediately. Some of us that had been stuck in the primary, you could stop the engine, it didn't make any difference. You'd just float it right along the same as before. But in that P-40, when you cut the power off, that nose just when right for the ground. You �had to be ready for it. It took a little time, but then too they explained that all to you before you'd get in the airplane and go. We didn't do too badly in our group in checking out. FRANK BOSSI: You were trained also in who you were going to be fighting, the Japanese Zero itself in that war, or the airmen you were going to be fighting. Chennault was, as I understand it, rather specific as to what you were gonna be up against. DICK ROSSI: Chennault had been giving flight instruction ever since the summer, and of course a lot of people had heard all these lectures and all. Our lectures were pretty limited because we only had a few weeks, and then a lot of them hadn't even checked out and gotten around to flying the P-40 in our group, when Pearl Harbor hit. I'd only been in it a few times myself when it hit. We hadn't had time to do formation flying or gunnery flying or any of that stuff. Of course, our course of instruction was very limited compared to the ones that arrived out there early in the summer. FRANK BORING: Did you feel prepared when you first got out there to go to fight, did you feel prepared? DICK ROSSI: Not really. I'd only fired the guns about once or twice on the airplane before. About the third time I fired the gun on the P-40 I was firing at a Japanese airplane. Some of the training – even at the end of January, some of the people hadn't even been checked out in a P-40 of our group. As a matter of fact, that's why some of them left and went home. They were at war and they wanted to get in it, so they went back to the navy or wherever they were from. FRANK BORING: On November, I guess it was the 8th where you were, you were in Rangoon at that time, when Pearl Harbor happened? DICK ROSSI: In Toungoo FRANK BORING: Toungoo, okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rossi_Dick_1991-02-06_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rossi, John Richard "Dick" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Dick Rossi interview (video and transcript, 2 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of John Richard "Dick" Rossi by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Dick Rossi served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader for the 1st Squadron, "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after being discharged from service in the US Navy, where he had been assigned as a flight instructor at Pensacola Naval Air Station. He arrived in Burma in November 1941 and began training on the P-40 airplanes, but had not yet completed his training when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Though officially attached to the 1st Squadron, he was also temporarily assigned to both the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons. In this tape, Rossi describes his first recollections of the AVG's arrival in Rangoon and later in Toungoo by train, in addition to his first meeting with CAMCO and General Chennault. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33346dd391a7e72530d113817d91b00b.mp4 959467a9c2d5d7d0cdcc8ba45bd4deae https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b6f2af6dee38d032e46c81c1f1dda00e.pdf bfccfa212b554939b20d48827520aaf1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Richard “Dick” Rossi Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: The P-40 itself, the actual details of turning the thing on and having to pull this and push that, it was pretty complicated wasn't it? Just to start the engine and get it off the ground? DICK ROSSI: Not any more I think than the dive bomber or another service plane. FRANK BORING: In December, when you heard about Pearl Harbor, what was your reaction? DICK ROSSI: When we got up - we were up and had breakfast, were down at the field as was our routine because, out there, it was a Monday and we'd had the weekend off. We went down Monday for our routine stuff, and someone that early morning – one of the guys came down and told us that we were at war, the Japs had bombed Pearl Harbor. Of course, we were all waiting for the gag line, we thought it was a joke of some kind. By that time, the guy who printed our old bulletin, we had a little bulletin that we put out there that came down with all the scoop and the radio broadcast. Now everybody began to believe it, everyone was getting excited. They started to issue gas masks and steel helmets, and one had a couple of planes up in the air on alert because we had been observed a few times by high flying Japanese observation planes in Toungoo, because they had taken part of Thailand and some of the places over there and �they had a field not too far away. A couple of times we saw one of their observation planes flying overhead. So we thought that the first thing they'd do was come over there and try to wipe us out. They had two planes in the air all day and they never ever did come over. FRANK BORING: So now you were on alert. What were the next few days like? DICK ROSSI: Everything was a little chaotic. They were – we had been prepared to move to Kunming anyway, and now, of course, they wanted to speed the move to Kunming, convoys were being prepared to go up the road and haul all the material up that they could, and the airplanes were being prepared to fly up and the British wanted us to go down to Rangoon and, of course, the higher authority was deciding what was gonna happen in that case. Everything was kind of on a– immediately went to a, you might say, restricted type of operation. You couldn't just take off and go to town if it was your day off; you had to get permission from the squadron. It was just being prepared that we were in a war and we'd got to be watching it if we weren't gonna get caught with our pants down. We fully expected that they'd be over and try to put our planes out of commission. FRANK BORING: But it wasn't until the 20th, from the 7th to the 20th, that they actually did come over. DICK ROSSI: They didn't come over Toungoo, they came over Kunming. But they had been coming over Kunming – they were over Kunming, I believe, on the 18th and that was the day we went up there. We flew up – the 1st and 2nd squadron went to Kunming on the 18th. In the meantime, before this, the 3rd squadron had been sent down to Rangoon to work with the RAF and our convoys were going up the road – as a matter of fact, some of the convoys had already departed before Pearl Harbor and before we heard about it, because the bulk of our ammunition was on trucks going up the road. We were a little short of ammunition in that early phase. Fortunately �we didn't get into any action or need it. But the bulk of it was on the trucks going up the road. Our group, we got up there on the 18th and there was quite a bit of damage in Kunming that had bombed that day, and then nothing happened on the 19th, and then on the 20th, they came over. And that was the first contact we had with them, and then they didn't come over to Kunming again for more than a year. I don't know when they came back again. In the meantime, a few more days went by, then the action really started heavy in Rangoon. I think on the 23rd it started. FRANK BOSSI: What was your first battle? What was your first actual confrontation with the Japanese? DICK ROSSI: Our squadron was up in Kunming when we had the first deal, but it was my day off so I didn't get in that one. Then the 3rd squadron was in very heavy action on the 23rd and the 25 of December, so Chennault decided to replace them right around the first of the year, and the 2nd squadron went to Rangoon to replace the 3rd, and they were down there for about a week and the action was picking up pretty good, so they said they would like some more help. So Chennault said he'd send eight members from our squadron down there to help out with them. So I was in that eight that was going down there. Bob Neale was taking us down there and we went down to Rangoon, and we were there for a while and we got a call one morning that they wanted two P-40's to escort some British bombers over to the Moulmein area. They had two Brewster Buffaloes, the RAF, two of our P-40's and we were supposed to escort, I thought, three Blenheim's, and we were over there to evacuate a field called Tavoy, which was south of Moulmein. We were going over to evacuate some British personnel. As it turned out there were actually six bombers, the other three joined later and I didn't hear anything in the briefing. We didn't get much briefing, they just said follow the RAF boys, and I was flying on a Brewster and the other fellow, Frank Raleigh was flying on one, and we started to cross, escorting these three Blenheim's. The three others joined us down below, I never even �saw them and we ran into a heavy fog bank, and we lost each other. So I just moved in closer to the Britisher, I figured he had the full briefing, he knew where we were going, and I stayed very close to him, and in the fog you've got to stay pretty close to not get lost. When we came out along the coast across the Gulf of Martaban and come along the coast there at Tavoy? Where we were supposed to ask. We were just supposed to stay there and fly cover on them while they picked up these people, evacuated them and go back to Rangoon. When we come out there, it was clear and sunny, the fog ended right at the water line, but there was nobody around but myself and the other Buffalo, the RAF pilot. So we just started circling the field and we hadn't climbed up very high, so we just went down to around 1,000 ft. and we were circling the field. What we didn't know was that Japanese had captured it in the meantime. So when we were circling around, he was one side of the field, I was on the other. We were just going around in circles, kind of keeping an eye on each other. I happened to be heading towards the sea side where there were some more mountains on the north side of the bay there, I saw three planes come over the horizon, over the trees there at that hill, and I thought they were Japanese. It turned out they were the Blenheim's, the British planes. I thought they were Japanese and I flew immediately across the field to motion to the RAF pilot what was going on so he'd turn around and look because he was flying with his back toward them at the time. I started out in that direction and about then I saw some Japanese fighters diving on these planes and I saw three more appear over the hill, so there were six of the Blenheim's and the Jap fighters were diving on them, so they hurriedly dived and took off, went back into the fog and the fighters came over towards the field and so that's where we ran into them. I started making head on passes at one, or he started at me and I started at him and that was my first time in combat. We made about four head on passes at each other and neither one being able to get the nose up high enough to get him because of the bullets falling short, he kept diving underneath me and I couldn't get my nose far enough to put a lead in front of him to lead him enough, and then as soon as he �got behind me, he'd immediately roll right up and turn over [?] to get on my tail, but we were much faster than they were and I'd be far enough away that I could go out a little bit and turn around again and about the third time I thought I was gonna really get him this time, I'll put the nose down and start firing about twice as early as I should so he'd have to fly through my line of fire to go underneath me, and when he made that last pass at me and I pulled up – I was getting ready to pull up and turn around and see what happened to him, when I had run right into a nest of them. They'd seen us making these deals and three of them were there waiting for me to make my turn. I saw all these tracers flying around so I forgot all about that other airplane. I put the nose down and went heading out for the fog bank. I went out in it and climbed up until I could get the high altitude and headed up north because I didn't have enough gas by then. You use quite a bit of gas when you're into that type of thing, because you've got your throttle pretty far open. I didn't have enough to get back to Rangoon so I knew we had this field up north at Moulmein so I went up there – figured I could get some refueling up there. Before I got there I climbed up to 12,000 ft. and just got over the field, getting ready to let down – I had the field in site, I wasn't quite over it – when I saw some more fighters up there and I thought, oh, no, here I am out of gas. It turned out they were P-40's going on a mission somewhere into one of the fields in Thailand, so I landed there. The other British pilot, not the one that was with me but the other one, was also there. He'd got some holes in his oil tank and he was already on the ground refueling and patching up his oil tank. When I got on the ground I saw I had a hole in my propeller, but it turned out I had fired – it was my own bullet from 50 calibers shot right through the propeller, got out of synchronization. We refueled but it took a while to refuel – you had to take it out of 50 gallon drums, strain it through a chamois, into your tank, and by the time you'd do that and fill up your tanks, quite a lot of time goes by. So we finally got our gasoline replaced and were heading up for – were gonna go back but he had this hole in his oil tank again. He was afraid that if the thing came apart and he lost all his oil, he'd have to put it down �somewhere. So instead of flying across the bay or the gulf, he said, "I'd like to fly along the shoreline and have you follow me. If I go down you can tell them where I am", which I did because we'd patched his oil tank by just putting a plug of wood in and tying a rag round it. He made it all the way back and I made it, but we were about two and a half, three hours long overdue past our fuel range, and they were already dividing our stuff, you know, because they figured they'd had us already. FRANK BORING: If you could describe, when you're up in the air with your squadron with a bunch of the other guys – you didn't have radios. DICK ROSSI: Yeah, we had them, they didn't always work. FRANK BORING: Could you talk a little about that – how you communicated with each other. DICK ROSSI: In those days, radio was just kind of new to us to a certain extent and you'd been trained to do a lot of your stuff with signals, especially if you're fly in formation in smaller airplanes, single engine airplanes. But we did have radio, they just didn't work half the time. If the radio didn't work we'd just go back to hand signals. If the radios worked, then we'd use 'em. Sometimes you'd be talking to somebody and realize nobody's hearing me, my transmitter's out or something. You don't realize it for a while. It was a kind of hit or miss type of thing. A lot of the radios weren't military radios, they were like radios that should have been in a cub or something like that, like small, light commercial planes. They just used whatever they could get their hands on. FRANK BORING: How about the gun sights? As I understand the gun sights weren't exactly conventional either. DICK ROSSI: The gun sights were a little bit primitive. We had some that were electric gun sights and some that were the sights like you have on a rifle with a cross hair and the little one out in front which are – I �forget the name of it – on the tip of a rifle. You just had one up on the far end of your engine and one up close and you lined the cross hairs up on that other, but then we had those sort of calibrated to where they were supposed to hit at about 600 ft. If you were about 600 ft., you'd make a direct aim otherwise you had to allow a little bit to raise it or lower it. But of course, as you got closer, it still would bear in, and every 3rd or 4th round, whatever it was, we had an incendiary bullet, so you could see the smoke. So you knew pretty much where your firing was going, it was kind of like aiming a hose of water or something. You can see where it's going. With incendiary bullets, tracers as we called them, you could see where your firing was going, so you had a pretty good clue as to when it was falling short or going over them, or whatever. FRANK BORING: What was your fiercest battle, where was the one you think out of all the ones that you had was really a… (break) DICK ROSSI: ……………… a light fragile sight to a certain extent, and they had a speed limitation. If they tried to dive too fast… FRANK BORING: Go ahead, talk about the P-40 and the Zeros. DICK ROSSI: One of our advantages in the P-40 was the speed we had. We had pretty good flat speed, but we had exceptional diving speed, and what we would like to essentially was to try to get above them. When we came down on top of them we'd be going so much faster that even if they turned to try to follow us, they were just too late, we were gone. The Japanese Zero had kind of a restriction on their diving speed. If they dived too fast, they got to a point where they lost the control of [?]. They were like frozen, and they lost their maneuverability, and so they could only dive and their planes were much more fragile and not as tough. They couldn't take the beating that our planes could take. Our planes could take a real heavy beating and still be structurally sound whereas they would come apart a lot easier when they got hit in a vital spot. We came up �against a lot of their 97's which was a fixed gear type of plane and it was even more so, slower and more fragile, but on the other hand, was maneuverable, they could turn inside of a dime. They could really just maneuver those things, they could just pull up and get behind you so quickly, you wouldn't believe it. FRANK BORING: This was one of the innovations that Chennault came up with and he taught you, as I understand it, not to take on the Japanese one on one, that there was a certain pattern, there's a certain thing that you should do. What was that, what was the training that he gave you in terms of fighting the Japanese Zero? DICK ROSSI: One of the first things that we heard when we were there was that we couldn't maneuver with them, that we couldn't maneuver, we couldn't maneuver sometimes say like a Brewster Buffalo hardly. That was one of the first things that we hear people talking about. Like I say, our group, the group I went out with got there late, we missed a good part of that, but when we got down to Rangoon, we're talking to the guys who'd already been up in a half a dozen or more fights, and after every fight, we sat around and talked about it, and everybody's giving some ideas, and you pick up a lot of things that help guys get out of trouble, and it starts building up. You just build up a background in that. FRANK BORING: What kind of things came up in these conversations? DICK ROSSI: The main thing was like, the guys who bailed out, got shot at on the way down. "When you bale out, don't pull the rip cord too soon. Try to maneuver things so you're moving. You're not just hanging there, a dead target. You wanna yank on your rip cord's and keep that thing swinging, so that it's harder for them to strafe you and if you see anybody in a parachute going down, get over right away so that somebody can't come in, so you can help them or save them, protect them. Things like that would come out of all the bull sessions after each fight, and course, guys would tell about the mistakes they'd made, firing too soon or whatever. A lot of �things happened – dive to get away but dive too much, instead of diving down about 3,000 ft., they'd dive about 10,000. You learned quite a lot just in the bull sessions after each engagement. When our squadron was down there, especially in the last weeks, they were coming over so often, that everything was getting chaotic. It was hard to remember from morning to night what the heck happened. Was that today or yesterday? They were just going up – we were getting three or four alerts a day. It was really hard to remember to recall a lot of that stuff. You start thinking and trying to recall back of certain things that happened to you and it's hard to pin it down to this – was it the afternoon or was it the morning? One flight we were on with Bob Neale, we had planned a mission over to Moulmein, because by this time it had been taken by the Japanese, and we were gonna take eight airplanes and go over there see what we could find, see if we could strafe them, see if we could catch any. About the time we were getting ready to go, we get an alert that the Japs were coming in and we took off. Our group went up, one of them had an engine problem and had to go back, but the rest of us went up. So by the time we climbed up to altitude and we usually start out to the east if we feel we got enough warning because that's where they come from. If we feel we don't have enough warning we'd fly out to the west and climb to get our altitude before they got a chance to get above us. This time we were flying out in that direction and by the time we got up there, they said it's a false alarm. Nobody coming. So Bob Neale says, "We might as well go and finish our mission then, we'll go on our mission." So we did. We went across to Moulmein and got near the water and came down, and there was a little field over the hill from Moulmein south of it which was just an auxiliary field. FRANK BORING: Stop there. (Inaudible) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rossi_Dick_1991-02-06_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rossi, John Richard "Dick" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Dick Rossi interview (video and transcript, 3 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of John Richard "Dick" Rossi by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Dick Rossi served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader for the 1st Squadron, "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after being discharged from service in the US Navy, where he had been assigned as a flight instructor at Pensacola Naval Air Station. He arrived in Burma in November 1941 and began training on the P-40 airplanes, but had not yet completed his training when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Though officially attached to the 1st Squadron, he was also temporarily assigned to both the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons. In this tape, Rossi discusses his reaction to the news of Pearl Harbor and the following days being on alert. He also goes into detail on his first battle with the Japanese and how Chennault's training was put into practice. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46f8d91f9fe47368df9c8f656628ed21.mp4 ed1f9063c42c1aeb0f7978d2444b3217 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/90548cf2f5d8815a97f91cc193b8319d.pdf 157336cacd7a6f32bf3e829d5f58e54b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Richard “Dick” Rossi Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] DICK ROSSI: Bob Neale brought us in south over this little auxiliary field and – there were seven of us – and there were two airplanes on the ground, so we all went screaming down in single file to get a little strafe shot at them and set those on fire, and then he let us up over the hill, which was only about ten miles away to their main airport in Moulmein. I was flying on his wing and then George Burgard was flying on me, he didn't have a wing man because he was the one who had turned back and the rest were following us. I was flying on Bob Neale's right side, and Burgard has just moved up to my right side, because whenever you didn't have a wing man you'd usually just join up with somebody else, so Bob Neale came over the field and looked down and there were three airplanes had just taken off and three more were rolling down the runway. Bob started diving to the field and I was following him and George was following me. Normally, if you're flying and your wing man's on your right side, you'll pick out the plane on the left. I don't know, for some unexplainable reason, Bob Neale fired at the plane on the right, so I slid underneath him and took the one on the left. Burgard came in from somewhere, I don't know where he went, but we got two of the planes out of that flight, the three that had just gotten airborne. By the time that we got down there on top of them, they were just only, probably less than a hundred feet in the air. Then we turned around because some others had already taken off. One of them was coming right at me, I thought he was trying �to ram me, so I put the nose down and it brought me right over the little bay there of the town and we were at low altitude to start with so when I pulled up the nose I was only 25, 30 ft. off the ground or off the water, because I was going across the bay and then right in front of me was a ferry boat full of Japanese soldiers. It was right in my sight so I pulled the trigger, had all six guns flying there. I could see them diving all over the place and glass shattering on the boat, then pulled up over the top of it on the other side and came back around towards the field. Then I saw one plane chase them for five minutes and it turned out to be an RAF plane. I don't know where he was going but he wasted all that time, and by the time he got back, the action's practically all over and all gone again, so then we joined up and went back to Rangoon. While we were in Rangoon, most of those alerts we got, when they did materialize, were always in very large numbers. Bombers would be coming up in flights of anywhere from 18 to 30 or 40 or even 50 and they'd have a fighter escort of anywhere up to 40 airplanes and the fighters would fly in some real weird – the first time I saw them I couldn't believe it. It looked like a bunch of bees swarming around. They were at all altitudes, just weaving in and out, back and forth. I don't know exactly what the strategy was on that, figuring that there'd be someone from any place they could, and they were behind the bombers. So we'd usually hit the bombers first and then some guys would go off towards the fighters, some would stay on the bombers. When they were in this, beehive we used to call it, about all you could do was to kind of get up and get a little bit above them and then dive right through them and just pick out one that was the most likely to be able to do it, because they maneuver so fast, you picked one out too soon he wouldn't be there by the time you could close in. Because they were just flying around, just like a swarm of bees. So we'd dive through them. A lot of times you'd dive through and you might have one or a second picked out and by the time you get there, you might just be going through and not even get a shot at anybody, pull up the other side and come again, and do it again but were gone. When they got into that they was none of this two plane formation because if you did, you'd be �wasting half your airplanes. There wasn't much that you could do if you flew watching the other guy and not watching the enemy, because there's no way you're really gonna protect him, unless some guy's pretty far behind him because if you're right on him, you're semi flying formation and you can't watch all that stuff. It's not like when you're doing so much long range and like today's fighters that take some six and seven miles to make a turn because of the speed they're going, but we could make turns pretty sharply and of course they could make them about five times as sharply. So there's a lot of milling around goes on up there. The bombers always stayed pretty much in formation if they were able to. If they got an engine shot out and had to drop back they might do it but then they were usually gone, that was probably their swan song. But they generally kept their really good formation; if any of them were shot down they'd move right up and just keep filling the formation, tightening up. One guy went down, another guy would move into his place, they kept pretty good formations. FRANK BORING: When you engaged the enemy, just generally, how many AVG planes would be up there to take on these groups that you're talking about? DICK ROSSI: That would vary quite a bit and some of our days in Rangoon especially when it really started getting bad when we were having several alerts during the day, we might start out in the morning with as many as 14 airplanes and maybe only have four, five or six ready to be able to go up on a last alert. Then of course, there were always a few of the British that were going up there also. It varied quite a bit. Then overnight, we'd try to get all the planes back in commission, so usually in the morning, we had the most airplanes available, and we were only putting together maybe 16 airplanes maximum in one of those deals. But it was kind of hard to have all 16 of them flying. �FRANK BORING: You started to describe this daily routine of two or three alerts a day. How often was this going on? How did you get to sleep? What was your routine like during that period? DICK ROSSI: One of the things that we began to appreciate down there was cloudy nights, because usually on cloudy nights, they didn't come over, and they didn't come over much on really dark nights. But on the moonlit nights, they always had some planes come over, but they'd only send maybe three at a time in a formation. But they'd send them over two or three times a night, just enough to ruin your sleep. But they didn't come over all the time. Maybe we'd go two or three days, or even maybe just two days with some pretty heavy alerts and some pretty good scores, they might not come back for about a week or five or six days, so if about two days would go by with nothing happening, then we'd go over and kind of flush them out, or see what was going on, because we figured they'd got a build-up on somewhere. So we would usually send out some flights to go over to the closer airports that we knew they had, and see what they had on the ground, and of course, every time we did that, they'd be over the next day. And every time we'd go over to – or even if we went early in the morning, they might even be over in the afternoon, but almost inevitably every time we ran one of these missions over there, they would retaliate. FRANK BORING: One of the last major battles of the AVG was at Salween Bridge and we have very sketchy information regarding that. Were you involved in that? DICK ROSSI: No, I was on a ferry trip at that time, I missed that whole thing. Charlie Bond was in that heavily and Bob Neale. FRANK BORING: What would you say was your most ferocious battle? What was the one that sticks out in your mind? DICK ROSSI: I don't know, it's kind of hard to say. I'm not even sure the most ferocious sticks out the most. Actually my first one sticks out more �because a week after that battle over there, I picked up a hitchhiking British officer and was talking to him. Of course they all knew our group and was talking to him about that fight over Tavoy. And he said he was on the ground at that time, that the Japs had taken the field and they were hiding out in the jungle, and they had to walk quite a distance before they could get out. He was there and witnessed my fight and he told me that that plane on my last pass that I hit him and he crashed into the hangar there, but unfortunately that was long after the combat report went in. Now that one stands out. The ones in the last days – the ones that were really the worst, they're like blur's to a certain amount, because there was so much going on in one day and they were so busy when you were there, they got to be blur's. It's hard to remember them. I think it's easier to remember the ones that were a little less hectic, like when we went to Kweilin and they bombed Kweilin just before we got up there. We sneaked in in the evening and then we were up in the morning early. We expected they'd send an observation plane over, which they always did. So we said, "When they send that over, as soon as he goes home we'll send some and we'll be up." Then we decided, "Let's not wait." So we went up in the air, and sure enough they come over and we were already up in the air, and they come over with the bombers and the fighters, and this got really interesting, even though it wasn't that big an engagement, they had a fair amount of bombers and they sent some twin engine fighters that we weren't familiar with. Most of the guys that were up fighting them mistook them for bombers. They thought they were just small, light bombers. They were twinengined fighters, and I remember Joe Rosbert – he was ordered not to get behind the bombers and get in their rear gunner's view. He was making head on passes at them, and then when he shot a couple of them down, they had canons in the nose, and he was making head on passes at canons, so it wasn't all that good strategy as it turns out, but we were pretty lucky that day. Two planes I guess got hurt. I think Charlie Bond might have had to bail out that day and Al Wright got hit and he crashed, he tried to land but he come up a little short and he busted up the airplane just at the end �of the runway. But the fight took place right over the field. It was smaller and there were fewer airplanes involved but it was interesting and they got anywhere from ground level up to about 18,000 ft. because they ended up finally around Kweilin. I think you've probably seen terrain pictures at Kweilin with these cones where they were chasing each other round the cones, around these little mountain type cones, and down there all our stuff was in operations, our stuff was in caves because most of these cones or these mountains had caves in them. They were just like they were air-conditioned there. Chennault had his headquarters in one of the caves in the field. It was pretty interesting then. FRANK BORING: In terms of the last few days, it was a lot of hectic fighting. It was heard I believe that AVG was going to disband and Bissell arrives on the scene, if you could just explain about that particular period of time. DICK ROSSI: The rumors started as far back as January and February that we were going to be pulled back into the service and nobody really knew for sure what was gonna happen and somewhere along in that area Chennault was given his commission in the air corps and was still of course in charge of us, but he actually was in the army, and we kept wondering what are they gonna do. We kept hoping they'd keep us a unit and let us continue that way for a while, but everybody I guess had mixed emotions it, then when this induction board finally arrived, they were very undiplomatic. They were colonels that had overblown egos I guess, like Colonel Bissell and they didn't really come out and request you join, they threatened with what would happen if you didn't join. Now there's a lot of stories about it and they stories vary a little bit for the simple reason that they were recruiting or doing this induction in several different places. They had some that took place in Kunming, some that took place in Chung King and I was down in Kweilin when they came down to Kweilin and asked for them, because our group went up to Chung King, but we were only there about two days, our squadron, and then we were sent to Kweilin, so we were down �at Kweilin, and like I say, we had action right away when we got there. They had already bombed the city before, then we got there and had this battle over the city and capturing Japanese airmen and shot down a bunch, so the town really threw a big party for us and everything, the city was really great, they had these school kids singing songs for us, they took up collections and they had fruit and all kinds of stuff, they gave a party for us, gave us leaflets, "Our heroes" and that sort of thing. It wasn't very long after though than they were heading for Hengyang and Ling Ling which were two more bases along that same line, so one day they told – in the meantime some B-25's from the army air corps arrived, and they were gonna go on a mission. Chennault wanted them to go down to Hankow and hit some of these Japanese airplanes there, so they wanted some of us to go up and escort them on a mission. They were gonna take off from Hengyang and go to Hankow, so they sent about half a dozen of us up there. He said, "Go up to Hengyang, escort the bombers over and then come back. So we took off, went to Hengyang, the weather turned out that we couldn't have the mission, so we landed and I was there with no baggage, ten days in the same clothes, very uncomfortable living and conditions, the food was pretty bad. Fortunately I always carried my toothbrush in my shirt pocket because I never knew where I was gonna end up. But all I had was the toothbrush and nothing else. It rained in for ten days, and there were a few breaks in the clouds at night, and the funny thing was they'd come over and bomb at night, but just one or two or three airplanes. So you'd miss your sleep, because I remember running out of that house one night and seeing this little tiny hole there, and Bus Loane and I were both running for it and there was no way it was big enough for two people, but some way or other we both got in it. We were close enough to that string of bombs that the mud splattered and the mud hit us, where the bombs hit the ground. We were splattered with mud from the concussion. I'll tell you though, the biggest relief you can have is when you hear bombs coming closer and closer and the next one's passed you. That is one of the greatest sounds you ever heard, they've passed us! �FRANK BOSSI: When Bissell arrived, what did you do, they called you together into a room or…? DICK ROSSI: I can't remember the speech. I was at Kweilin and they were just trying to get different guys, whoever weren't doing anything, between mechanics between their working on the airplanes and the pilots that weren't standing on alert by the airplane, one guy would relieve another guy and go up there and I think one of the hardest things that we had was to say no to the old man. None of us minded no to Bissell, but the hardest thing was saying no to the old man, because everybody respected the old man and they hated to see him stuck there with nobody staying, I think that was the hardest part. But it turned out only five pilots really stayed and I know Tex Hill and Rector didn't plan to stay, they just didn't have the heart to leave the old man there. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rossi_Dick_1991-02-06_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rossi, John Richard "Dick" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Dick Rossi interview (video and transcript, 4 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of John Richard "Dick" Rossi by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Dick Rossi served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader for the 1st Squadron, "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after being discharged from service in the US Navy, where he had been assigned as a flight instructor at Pensacola Naval Air Station. He arrived in Burma in November 1941 and began training on the P-40 airplanes, but had not yet completed his training when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Though officially attached to the 1st Squadron, he was also temporarily assigned to both the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons. In this tape, Rossi describes the conditions in the air when the AVG pilots were engaging with the enemy, in addition to the hectic fighting that was taking place during the final days of the AVG and around the time of General Bissell's arrival. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4329cfe26f728c0017471d1616f09772.mp4 92f7c86e346f0be114253f51a69021ba https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/41227cd27e4581da9d4a0e000034c611.pdf dd88f29f17c86981ebe90a867d3800a2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Richard “Dick” Rossi Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BOSSI: If you could just, in your own words and in your own feelings of why you were ready to go at the end, because the world was at war and you were aware of that. There were reasons why you guys were all fed up and ready to go home. I know a lot of the guys just wanted to take a vacation and come back, but if you could talk about that aspect of it. DICK ROSSI: When July 4th rolled around – actually the group of us that got out later, our contracts weren't even nearly up, we would have to stay up until November, but because the bulk of them that came out early, they were ended, they figured there was no practical way they could phase them out a few at a time. So they just said that at this time they'd cancel all the contracts as of the 4th of July. As it turned out the air corps didn't have anybody there so a bunch had to stay an extra two weeks to make the transition. The main reason I think that they got such a little turn out other than the attitude that Bissell and some of these had is that they didn't want to give anybody any rotation or any leave. Some of the guys like myself and Bob Neale, we'd gone down to Rangoon in early January and now it was 4th of July, and when the first squadron left Burma, I went back down with the 3rd squadron, so all this time we'd been in action. It was a certain amount of stress and nervousness. Bob Neale, because he had more responsibility being a squadron leader and in charge of so many stations, he was practically a nervous �wreck. He lost a lot of weight, he was jumpy. He was just kind of a physical thing. I think the stress was building up on the majority of people, or a bunch of them. Of course, a lot of them were really anxious to get home to see their families and this sort of thing. I think that if they had said we'll let X number go off for a week or two over to Calcutta and come back and rotated them, they'd have probably got a bunch more, but then at that time I thought, I think I'll go back in the navy, I had decided I'd go back in the navy. But that didn't really affect it that much because Chennault had been authorized to give us a navy rank and some people keep saying that we were promised this and it wasn't given to us, but that wasn't my case because I left the navy as an ensign and Chennault was authorized to give commissions in the air corps as high as Majors and in the navy as high as Lieutenant which was a two-striper, so if I would have gone in the navy, which was a two-striper, so if I would have gone in the navy, he would have given me a full Lieutenant's two bars, which would have been the equivalent of Captain. That would have been better than if I'd have – I'm pretty sure better than my class mates had and I was really thinking very seriously about it, that if I did stay I would go in the navy. He was authorized even to give Bob Neale a Lieutenant Colonel, because Bob had been doing quite a lot of the work and was the squadron commander that had been in more action than most, than the others. So he was authorized to give him a Lieutenant Colonel, and for the extra two weeks that he stayed out there, he was a Commanding Officer of the army group, which was a little unusual to have a civilian as the Commanding Officer but Bob Neale stayed on for two weeks to help out, he was the CO of the group down there and Kweilin. Then when I started to come out of there, I don't think any of us thought the war was going to last 'til 1945. We all still had the idea we were gonna beat them a lot sooner than that and then when I got over to Din Jan and some of the guys had already stopped, they were flying the Hump, and actually before I joined the navy I was trying to get on to Pan Am working as a steward on their flying boats across the Pacific and I had a call to report the same time as I got a call to report for flight training so I �figured I'm not going to go work as a steward if I can go back as a pilot. So I went in the navy and I still had it in my mind that somewhere along the line when this war's over and I do my hitch in the navy I'm gonna work for Pan Am. When you live in San Francisco the flying boats on the Pacific were a pretty big thing there and so when we got over to Din Jan on our way out, they wanted to put us to work right then and there, flying the Hump, and a bunch of our guys did it, they stayed right on there and flew the Hump, but I said I want to go home first and then come back. FRANK BORING: How difficult was it to get home, to get your [?] back? DICK ROSSI: It got a little tough getting home because the word came out not to help anybody get home and the poor guys that stayed the extra two weeks had the worst of it. You would think they would have got the best of it for volunteering to stay two weeks, but they got the worst of it. They were completely cut off. The ones that left a little early, they got by before the word got out. By the time I reached Karachi which was the jumping off place, I was with two other AVG guys, Hennessy and Cavanagh, and we had all been talking to CNAC, and we had all said, "Yeah, I'd come back." "But," we said, "We’re gonna home now." So they said, "Okay, when you get to New York, report in to Pan Am," and they gave us a letter of introduction to Pan Am. So when we got to Karachi, there was a Colonel and a Major there that were out at the airport. They were sort of controlling the traffic, and when we got there, word had already come out from Chennault and Stillwell, and Bissell saying don't give AVG people any passage home. But too I had been over there earlier to pick up some P-43's for the Chinese Air Force and I'd met these Colonels and the Major in charge, and we had these letters from CNAC on Pan Am stationery, so he let us go through as Pan Am ferry pilots, as kind of a favor. We didn't appear as AVG, we appeared as Pan Am ferry pilots, because Pan Am was ferrying airplanes out there. So he gave us permission to buy a ticket on Pan Am. So we got on Pan Am and when we showed Pan Am these letters, they didn't even charge us for the ticket and once �we left Karachi we were okay. We hedge-hopped all the way across there on different planes 'til we got out to the west coast of Africa where we had to cross the Atlantic. A stratocruiser was going back to South America by way of Ascension Island, and so we got permission from Pan Am to ride on that. When we got out to Ascension Island, the plane broke down, – lost an engine. They were going to have to fly one in, and we spent the night in Ascension Island and they talked to the guy who was in charge of it – we got a tour of the island. Next morning there was a B24 came through from England and they were bringing some ferry pilots home so they could bring over some more B-24's and they had empty seats on there so they asked us if we wanted to ride to South America with them, so we said fine. We got on that and when we got to South America to the hotel, we went into the Pan Am office and said, "We were on the stratocruiser out there and so save our seats, we just came in on the B24 as we're heading for Miami." "Here we've got a plane in from Miami right now. You wanna get on it?" So we went and got on that and some navy pilot that I knew from before was flying it so we got up to Miami on that without even paying, so the three of us lucked out pretty well on that deal. FRANK BORING: How did you feel about having to go to all those lengths to get back? DICK ROSSI: I don't know. I didn't really give it that much thought as long as it was working, because the majority of people waited around Karachi until they saw it was hopeless, then I guess on the advice of the American Consul there, they went down to Bombay, where they a troop ship was going back, and one of the Matson liners had been converted, so they all got passage home on that ship out of Bombay. So we had quite a group on that one ship. FRANK BORING: But you felt no resentment after this year of combat and volunteering to be cut loose and told (inaudible)…? �DICK ROSSI: I guess we weren't that happy about it, that's for use. I think at that time, for a short period, there was a little period in there when there was a certain amount of resentment built up against Chennault. After he got to be a General, some of the guys got to thinking he's getting a little over eager, sending these damaged and patched up airplanes over enemy territory for no purpose. Not to catch anything but only as morale builders. You were over enemy territory, if the engine quits, you were down. If you were flying down to 1,000 ft. over the troops to build their morale, but anybody down there could take a rifle and take a shot at you. I think there was a certain feeling that he's pushing harder than he ever did. Of course, the airplanes were getting in worse shape, the guys were getting a little physically run down, so I guess it was kind of a culmination of all this, and then when over in Karachi they told us that the word came from Stillwell and Chennault that we weren't supposed to get rides home, not to help us, that didn't make anybody feel very good either. FRANK BORING: Looking back now, you'd think at least you could have got a ride home. DICK ROSSI: Bissell outranked Chennault just be an hour you might say. They both were given their promotion to Brigadier General but they definitely saw to it that Bissell got his ahead of Chennault, and when they had been in the service before, Chennault was senior to Bissell. So I got a feeling that it pretty much originated with Bissell because he was teed off that his message – he told the guys that if you don't stay out here, if you do go home, that we'll have the draught board waiting for you when you step ashore in the States, and you'll be in the walking army and this sort of thing. I think he was chagrined that he got such a small response is probably what caused it because, it wouldn't have hurt him to give 'em rides home. All their stuff was going home empty, they were bringing stuff out and going home empty so to speak. I rode in one C47 across one part of Africa that had nothing in it but a bunch of mattresses they were sending to some barracks somewhere. Of �course, we had it easy, we just went in the back, laid down on mattresses, although the cabin was full of iron mattresses! FRANK BORING: Looking back on it now, Dick, what do you feel about those days? What has remained, no so much the memories, but just what kind of feelings do you have looking back on that time? DICK ROSSI: Having gotten home from it okay, I'm certainly glad that I was there. I think that it was probably one of the major experiences and challenges in my life. It was something that was interesting, it was something that I felt was worthwhile. If I had foreseen probably that the war would have lasted this long, I would have probably stayed there and gone in the navy because that was another thing, I knew if I'd gone in the navy there, that they wouldn't let me there too long, that I would get to go home probably by the end of the year at least. But you can't foresee what's gonna happen tomorrow. No, I don't regret having gone out there at all. I think all of the stuff – there's a certain amount of things you tend to put up with and when a war comes along, you know you're gonna have to put up with a lot more things because – when we were in Magwe, conditions there were really primitive. It was kind of an unusual area, it was a desert area type, whereas the other parts were in Toungoo and Rangoon, they were more jungle type, lush greenery. Here in Magwe it was like a desert. We had sandstorms there that blew our tents away, we only had a couple or three tents out in the field. We were all living in one house. It was kind of rugged, yet when a war is on, you figure, this is it. What else can you do? Nobody's going to come out here and build a barracks. You just learn that this is how it is. All in all, I'm glad I went. FRANK BORING: What do you feel personally about what you did there in terms of your accomplishments there? What do you feel you did? DICK ROSSI: I don't know, I just felt that I went along and did my part, contributed to the group as much as I had the opportunity to and �was able to. When it came time to do anything, I was sent anywhere, I went. FRANK BORING: What do you feel about the AVG itself, what they did for that particular period of time? What sets them out from everything else that was going on in the war? DICK ROSSI: I think one of the things was that they were there when it started, and they were off of U.S. territory. They weren't, say, in Manilla where we in control, or in Hawaii, we were in a foreign country and we were there. One of the things that gets to be like a misconception, they have a tendency to say it was like a pick-up group. Actually every pilot out there came out of the service, was in the service in 1941 and was a trained military pilot. It wasn't like the Eagle Squadron was made up of people who couldn't make it in the military, or wanted to learn to fly or, maybe had never had – most of them probably had never had military training or weren't able to complete it. Everyone out there had been a military pilot in one phase or another, they weren't all in fighters, but adapting to that wasn't all that difficult because, when you were a cadet, you went through the different phases, so if they wanted you to be a patrol pilot, they put you in a patrol plane, if they wanted you to be a sea plane pilot, they put you in a sea plane, if they wanted you to be a carrier pilot, they put you in a carrier type plane. Of course, the carrier types weren't all fighters because they had the dive bombers and the scout planes. It wasn't just a pick-up group, everybody out there had been to military training and had put a certain amount of time in the service. FRANK BORING: There are not too many people that you could say that – what you did is in the history books and will probably always be in the history books. It was certainly in the minds and in the souls of the Chinese people, and as a major aspect of our own history, American history. How do you feel though personally, how do you feel the AVG fits into the scheme of things, so to speak? �DICK ROSSI: I don't know. If think if we had been a military outfit – say for example, if we had been a military unit out there, I don't know that it would have been all that different. If we'd had the same equipment, the same deal, and we'd been a military unit instead of a civilian unit, I don't know if there'd have been that much difference. We worked side by side with the RAF, and they didn't act like we were civilians instead of military pilots at all. We happened to be out at a time when two major – good news came to the States during a real idyllic time and that was Doolittle coming through and our group out there was some of the only good news they had from the Orient during that early months of the war. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rossi_Dick_1991-02-06_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rossi, John Richard "Dick" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Dick Rossi interview (video and transcript, 5 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of John Richard "Dick" Rossi by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Dick Rossi served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader for the 1st Squadron, "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after being discharged from service in the US Navy, where he had been assigned as a flight instructor at Pensacola Naval Air Station. He arrived in Burma in November 1941 and began training on the P-40 airplanes, but had not yet completed his training when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Though officially attached to the 1st Squadron, he was also temporarily assigned to both the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons. In this tape, Rossi describes his own feelings in the final days of the AVG and their difficulties in returning to the United States, in addition to his overall thoughts on the group's success and place in history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a774ff9886c510b9a0dbe9b9476c26b8.mp4 f8ac1d1c2db269ba5a57fb62d400c401 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b03434cb918665a18e27a5d63414a1d0.pdf f4704e59be9639b01f950b1a7fdff31c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Richard “Dick” Rossi Date of Interview: 02-06-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] FRANK BORING: When you first joined the AVG, what was your main motivation? Did you think in terms of defending China or fighting Japan? DICK ROSSI: When I joined the AVG, I didn't really think the Japanese would dare to attack us to tell you the truth. People talked about war as being inevitable, but I really didn't think that they were gonna attack us from all the way out there, I figured any conquering they did would be in Asia. I wasn't really all that familiar with China as a country or the people as a whole. To me it was more of a challenge, and I really thought it was something that would further my navy career, if I would have put in that year out there. There was one thing that did impress me from that whole experience in China was the appreciation that our unit, our group got from the Chinese people, and even to this day, they carry it on. They still appreciate and thank us for being out there and stopping the bombing of their cities. Before I went out there, the only thing I saw about that was the newsreels. When they had the newsreels at the movies and showed Chungking be bombed and Shanghai being bombed, and Nanking. But it was kind of long range at that time; you're sitting in a comfortable theater seeing it. But when we got out there, bombing of Chungking stopped, the bombing of Kunming stopped, and when we got down to Kweilin, we slowed down the bombing down there so, those people were very appreciative. We didn't really have that close a contact with them �while we were there because – I spent a lot of my time even in Burma. But even when we were in China, we didn't really have that much contact with them. We were living in our hostel out by the airport, we got to town to go to the stores, but you weren't meeting people personally, you were going into a restaurant or shop and seeing a shopkeeper, we didn't have that close a contact so much. Especially the ones in the lower echelons. Naturally, Chennault and the others, they were in constant contact with the Chinese and the ones who were in authority there, but the average person in our group wasn't really that close. But at the different places, like in Kunming and Chungking and Kweilin, these people would come out and give these parties and express their appreciation and I thought that part made it feel a little more worthwhile too. FRANK BORING: Did you know P.Y. Shu or Tiger Wong at that time? DICK ROSSI: Didn't know Tiger Wong at that time, I just knew of him. He was Colonel Wong at that time, but I just knew that he was in the higher command of the CAF, but P.Y. Shu was with Chennault all the time that he was in the office, so anytime you saw Chennault, P.Y. Shu wasn't far away, so I got to see P.Y. quite a lot more. FRANK BORING: How was his relationship with the Tigers? Did he get along with you guys? DICK ROSSI: There again, we didn't have that much direct contact with him. He was Chennault's interpreter and translator, and he was with Chennault and all, but he didn't come to our squadron or to our quarters or anything like that. Mostly we would see him when he was with the old man, driving around somewhere, coming into the field or whatever. FRANK BORING: What was Greg Boyington like? �DICK ROSSI: He was a hell raiser! We were instructors together down at Pensacola, so I knew Greg from before. We signed up together, went out on the same ship together. He had a drinking problem which we all knew about. Some of us who were down at Pensacola probably realized it a little more. From a personal point of view on board the ship with him and the squadron, I had no problem with him. When he got a little obnoxious with his drinking, I just stayed out of way, because when he got really well along, he would want to take on anybody. He could pick an argument with anybody once he got drunk. But when he wasn't drunk, he just was not much different from anybody else out there, from my point of view, and as I say, I'd known him for a couple of years before, so I wasn't surprised by anything he did. FRANK BORING: In terms of his flying though, he was considered one of the better fighters or pilots, but how did he treat his airplanes and how was that relationship with – if he flew a plane then the next day someone else would have to get in that plane. What kind of things happened regarding that? DICK ROSSI: I think that was pretty much like everybody else. I know one time in Toungoo during the early period when they were checking out. Being a marine, he had fighter training, so he was a little bit ahead of us who didn't, and I think he had – so much power you were supposed to put in those airplanes, you could put more on but you didn't know what the results would be, they weren't built for it, and I know that one day he had some kind of a problem and had to go around and put the throttle on way past the limits, and I think the next someone flew that airplane and the engine quit on them, but he wasn't the only who did that, that's for sure. FRANK BORING: Why did he leave the Tigers? DICK ROSSI: That's a good question. Pappy was a little bit – he didn't like authority very much for one thing, and why he decided to go home and leave the group I really don't know. He just suddenly up – �because he had a position of responsibility in the squadron and he didn't because of his drinking, he would let that responsibility slide pretty much, he didn't get along very well with Bob Neale, because that reflected on Bob, so they had a lot of friction at times between them, although by the same token, Bob Neale had recommended him and he was given promotion to a Vice Squadron Commander, and that wasn't too long before he took off and left, and a lot of people say that he was fired, but he wasn't really fired, he just quit, he just said, "I'm going home." and he went. FRANK BORING: I know you became very close with the guys when you were in training and also when you fought and everything, what was your reaction to the first death in the AVG, the first one that didn't come back or was even shot down. DICK ROSSI: We started having deaths before anything ever happened, just in the original training, but was before I was there. I didn't know any of the people that were involved. When the first two pilots were killed in Rangoon, I didn't know either of them. Because operated in separate squadrons, living in different quarters we didn't even see some of these guys. I didn't even meet Arvid Olson who commanded the 3rd squadron until I went down to work for him in Burma and it's when, I think, somebody that you know more closely. When somebody in our squadron started getting it, you feel it a little bit more. When Hoffman and Christman who we knew pretty well because of working with the 2nd squadron, when they got it of course, you're down there on the scene at the same time. Then Sandell got it and then it hits a little bit more, but I guess in wartime you sort of expect it. FRANK BORING: The last time we talked you were rather descriptive about the fall of Rangoon. I just wondered if you could go over that again, there were a lot of stories that came out of that one. DICK ROSSI: The last days that came out of Rangoon were pretty chaotic. We kept getting all kinds of rumors. We'd have rumors that the Japs �had announced they were dropping paratroopers, we had rumors that the British were sending in a whole brigade of tank corps and they were gonna drive the Japs back, we had all kinds of rumors that were frightening and encouraging, and none of them really seemed to materialize. I don't know where they started, but I guess even when they were having some of their conferences, and they would demand that the British would do something to hold Rangoon, they'd say, "Yes we will," and we'd get a big rumor but no action took place. And we even heard one time when the ships were already out there with these people, we would put up two planes to go over and make sure when they got to the dock, that they wouldn't be jumped or anything. They never came over and the last few days, so much of the population had left, storekeepers had left, administrators had left, families had left, houses were abandoned, we were living with families at that time, and the families, or the owners of the families would take off and just leave you with the house. At the same time, stores were boarded up or abandoned, you could just go in and help yourself and go down to the docks that were loaded with all kinds of equipment, durable, commercial and more stuff, you could go in there and load a truck full of anything you wanted. And you could go and get the truck too, and that's what we were going quite a lot, we were scrounging a lot, we were lining up trucks and material. I remember one truck came back loaded with nothing but sherry and wine. Another truck we loaded with gabardine, we were all going to have gabardine uniforms made. We would take these big six by [?] of the army military and take two jeeps and stand them up on their back end, so that one guy could drive three pieces of equipment up towards China so we'd have wheels. There was a lot of that going on. It got to the point where we didn't have any food supply, regular food supply because we'd be living in an abandoned home or something like that, and we'd just send a couple of mechanics down town with tommy guns and a truck and just scrounge around the warehouses and come back with whatever food – I remember one day all they came back with was cases of canned peaches.so we ate canned peaches for two meals. Everything was chaotic, they let all the �people out of jails, they let them out of insane asylums, they were closing down the hospitals, the sick were on their own. So things got real chaotic. Then all of a sudden, the word comes out, "We're gonna hold at all costs." Then the next day, that would disappear somewhere. The last day that we did any action in Rangoon, that night we took all the airplanes out and dispersed them, out at these little fields around the area, so that they wouldn't be there for the night bombing. Except we had one airplane still there that the mechanics were gonna work on. And somewhere in the early morning, Bob Neale came around and told us, "We've got to get the heck out of here because the British have left, and the direction finders have all gone." He had a station wagon and he took me down to the – our mechanic said that that plane was ready to go, Bob drove me down there to pick up that last P-40, I think it was number 89 or something, I don't remember, but he got down there and it was like a Hindu sitting straddled on the fuselage of that airplane, kind of leaning against the vertical stabilizer, and he was sort of covered with blood. First I started thinking, sabotage, because there were a lot of Japanese agents in there, but this guy was like he was shell-shocked, and I never did figure out what the heck happened to him, whether he was one of the guys from the insane asylum, got hit by some shrapnel or something because they had bombed during the night, or what, or whether he was okay to start with and maybe he was shell-shocked from the concussion, but we got him off the airplane and he just mumbled and didn't want to fight or anything, he just left, so we took a pretty good examination of the airplane and except for a few shrapnel holes in it, it seemed to be okay, so I took it off and flew it off to one of the other fields where I was gonna had some more gas to it and then we were gonna fly up to Magwe to get out of there and by the time we got out this other field and got rid of the gas, we got another alert and the bombers were back over and we just still had some ack ack going, it was about eighteen miles out of town, so they could aim it up over as these planes circled away, so he said, "Get the heck out of here and head for Magwe," so we jumped in the airplanes, I was sure low on gas by then, anyway, we took off with �the British ack ack, we didn't know whether they were firing at us or who, we were flying through their forest of ack ack out there and took off – that was another kind of a chaotic deal. We had left one guy there who had disappeared a day or so before, Ed Leibolt, we were still worried about whether he might still be alive or whether we were abandoning him or not, but he was never seen again. FRANK BORING: Did you ever meet Chiang Kai-shek or Madam Chiang Kai-shek? DICK ROSSI: Yeah, I met them, when I say met them, I didn't have any conversation with him, he didn't speak English. One day, Michelson and I picked up Madam at the airport and took her down to the hostel to serve her tea or have the houseboy serve her tea, but we didn't realize at the time, she was the Madam, we just thought she was a good looking gal! We asked her if she'd like to go down and have tea, she said yes, and went with us. When we found out when we got back and there were all these secret service types of the Chinese fuming around the place and everything, we found out what we'd done. FRANK BORING: What was your impression of her? DICK ROSSI: She was very charming, good looking gal and she spoke English with a Georgia accent. I didn't have any communication or anything with her other than say that one occasion there when she came down for tea. But as a politician or leader I never had any contact with her. At the two parties they gave for us, I was out somewhere with the squadron when they both took place so I didn't get to those. FRANK BORING: Can you describe the attitudes about the Japanese as pilots before you actually went up against them and heard what Chennault said about them, and then after you actually had contact with the Japanese as fighters. �DICK ROSSI: I always heard the old prototype stories that they all wear thick glasses and have spiked haircuts or something, but naturally none of these things ever hold up. I think they were just like anybody else, they had a lot of good ones, and a lot of them that weren't that good, and they had some that were very experienced, and some that were really inexperienced and I think we came across all kinds of them. Because sometimes you'd come up against one by surprise and he'd look as shocked as you would if it happened to you. I tried to shoot one down over Kweilin one day. I was tearing down on him and I figured I'm not gonna shoot him until I get so close that it's gonna break up the airplane. When I got that close and pulled the trigger, every gun jammed. Not a bullet came out of any one of six guns, and I had picked up so much speed that I went right passed him, pulled up right alongside of his wing to turn away from him so I could go out and charge my guns but I was close enough to look in the cockpit and I saw that look of surprise on his face, he didn't know I was there at all. His eyes were as big as saucers almost you might say. There was a shocked look on his face, and of course, he peeled off immediately to the left and I peeled off to the right so I could get out. I kept going fast because I figured if he turned after me, he'd get a good shot at me, so I wanted to get away from him as soon as I could and as far enough to charge my guns and come back instead of him coming after me, he peeled off the other way, and by the time I got out and charged my guns and came back, I couldn't find him, I'd lost him, and that broke my heart because I was right over the field and Chennault was down there, I could have dropped one in his lap. FRANK BORING: Wasn't there a fantasy that these Japanese really couldn't carry on the war, they couldn't fight. DICK ROSSI: There was a certain amount of that conversation about them that they would do everything by the book and they wouldn't do this and that, but they didn't all follow that. They had some pretty sharp guys too. When you stop and think about it, you can't hardly figure any way than they had some sharp guys. �FRANK BORING: ………………… of the Flying Tigers DICK ROSSI: Talk about the image, I think it depends on whose eyes you're looking through because a lot of people like to write it up as a bunch of mercenaries and drunks, and other people like to write it up as a really fine-honed fighting group and some are in between. It was just, I'd say, an average group. If you could put brought them up against an equal sized group in any of our own services, they'd have probably been darn near the same. FRANK BORING: The one on one battle you had, the most vivid kill. DICK ROSSI: I still have to go back to the most vivid one was my first one because they were head on passes, I mean, you're just looking at one guy shooting straight at you and you're shooting at him. The others, like when you jump somebody from behind, they don't see you and you don't see them or maybe they know you're there, but there's nothing they can do about it. Usually, if there are a lot of airplanes the activity is a lot more chaotic. There was a deal where for a certain number of minutes, there were just two of us together, and this continually coming back and trying to get the other guy and I think that's more vivid just because it was strictly one on one for enough time until I finally got jumped by his buddies and got out of there. I think that always seems to be more memorable. You're looking down that guy's guns a few times in a row and you keep wondering who's gonna hit first, and that makes it a little more vivid than when you're in a melee of some kind with everybody going in all directions. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rossi_Dick_1991-02-06_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rossi, John Richard "Dick" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-06 Title A name given to the resource Dick Rossi interview (video and transcript, 6 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of John Richard "Dick" Rossi by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Dick Rossi served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader for the 1st Squadron, "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after being discharged from service in the US Navy, where he had been assigned as a flight instructor at Pensacola Naval Air Station. He arrived in Burma in November 1941 and began training on the P-40 airplanes, but had not yet completed his training when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Though officially attached to the 1st Squadron, he was also temporarily assigned to both the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons. In this tape, Rossi describes his main motivation for joining the American Volunteer Group and his reaction to experiencing loss among the group. He also goes into detail on the fall of Rangoon and the attitudes of the Japanese as pilots. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce5eeead1e77aafca7bd154f81d1a645.pdf 4f6a3df8ef61da2cfecbb8d72fc23da3 PDF Text Text _ _ _ _ _ THE PEOPLES OF AMERICA _ _ _ __ Second in a series on the ethnic minorities who make up what President John F. Kennedy called "This nation of immigrants." TheJews Among Us Their manifold contributions to the country's vitality and inventiveness constitute a sparkling chapter in American history BY LEO ROSTEN W E CROSSED Liberty ; and my mother carried me down the gangplank to Ellis Island , the magic portal to the new, free world. We waited in large, caged rooms for five endless days to hear our name called. The place was packed with wrinkled Russian women in babushkas , Greeks in funny hats , gypsies who gave me candy, and gentle Jews who prayed three times a day . When at last the $25 my father had saved and sent from Chicago arrived, my mother led me on the ferry to the mainland , whose twinkling lights we had marveled at each PHOTO : ERICH FRE AKING 153 the Polish border at Cz~stochowa, and my mother clutched my hand. We shivered in the train to Berlin, where we were "deloused," even though my mother was cleaner than the scary , smelly guards ; and then somehow she found a train to Hamburg , from which we sailed. She was only 22; I was three. Ten people were jammed into our suffocating cabin , far below deck, and the sea was very rough. On the 14th day, I was held up above the throng on deck to see the Statue of �THE JEWS AMONG US night. I sensed that a miracle had nancial assistance throughout ' the come to pass. _ long years of the rebellion came Pushing the Frontier. My parents from Jews like Haym Salomon of and I were but three of the millions Philadelphia. Indeed , James Madiof Jews who have sought freedom in son recorded his profound indebtthe United States. The first to come edness to Salomon, who refused were 23 Portuguese Jews who fled to take a promissory note, or to the Inquisition in Brazil to New Am- charge interest , for successive loans , sterdam in 1654. Jews were accepted and who "obstinately rejects all in America , especially by the Puri- recompense." tans, who appreciated the Hebraic The Jews who arrived after 1820 foundation of Christianity . · were artisans and· small traders . The Founding Fathers greatly re- Many were peddlers , their knapspected the Jews . John Adams said, sacks stuffed with pins , needles, "They are the most glorious nation thread , buttons , cloth. These Jews that ever inhabited this earth." Ben- walked the land and slept in barns jamin Franklin and Thomas Jeffer- and open fields. In time, they bought son proposed as the great seal for the wagons, and added pots, pans , ketnew republic a depiction of the He- tles , bedsteads to their wares. The brews crossing the Red Sea, crowned Jewish peddler became a welcome by this legend: " Rebellion to Ty- figure in America's rural areas and rants Is Obedience to God . ~ And the helped push the frontier westward. Jews never forgot George as fi mg- Some opened trading posts or dryton's letter to their congregation m goods stores. They moved into newNewport, R . I.: " [Our governmentl ly opened territories, across the gives to bigotry no sanction , to per- Mississippi , over the Rockies, to the West Coast. secution no assistance ." Some of these resourceful men From 1654 to 1800, some 3000 Jews had immigrated to America, a laid the foundations for great departminuscule group compared with the ment stores and retail chains : GimEnglish, Scots, Irish or Germans. bel, Saks, Altman, Straus (Macy's) Often they settled in the flourishing of New York City; May of Los Anseaport cities of Charleston, New geles; Magnin , Strauss and Haas of York and Philadelphia, where trade San Francisco; Neiman and Marcus was spurred by already established of Texas. Perhaps the most famous Jewish merchants. was Levi Strauss. He created an inConsidering their small numbers, ternational phenomenon called blue Jews played a significant role in the jeans, for California gold miners American Revolution. Thomas Jef- who wanted trousers of the utmost ferson used David Franks, a Jew , as durability. Levi had only very tough his diplomatic courier. Critical fi- tent canvas; he used copper rivets to strengthen pockets crammed with LEO ROSTEN , PH.D. , politic a l sc ienti s t , tools or nuggets. To his surprise, screenwrit er , humori st , is author of 31 books, miners poured into his shop, asking including Th e Joys of Yiddish , Treasury ofJ ewish for " them pants of Levi 's ." Quotations, Captain N ewman, M .D . a nd Th e Edu cation 0J'Hy111w1 Kap/an . Jewish pioneers scattered all over 1 54 �THE JEWS AMONG US the expanding nation and live on in dozens of American place names: towns like Castroville and Kaufman, Texas ; Solomonsville, Ariz.; Levy, Ark. ; Mayersville, Miss. A Jew named Sigmund Schlesinger was a famous Indian fighter and hero of the Battle of Beecher Island in Kansas. Philo Jacoby founded a Jewish newspaper in San Francisco, and became the champion rifle shot of the world. San Francisco's pioneers included the Fleishhackers, Koshlands , Schwabackers , Hellmans. In Cincinnati, the Freibergs , Fleischmanns and Friedlanders stamped the city with German-Jewish influences, as did the Baers and Stixes in St. Louis, and the Lazaruses in Columbus . Lovers of tantalizing trivia will relish the fact that one of the Old West's legendary figures , Wyatt Earp, is buried in the Jewish cemetery of Colma, Calif. Earp married Josephine ("Sadie") Marcus of San Francisco, an actress, after the famous shoot-out at the O.K. Corral, and the two spent the next 48 years prospecting for gold , gambling, and running saloons in Colorado , Texas , Mexico and Alaska. A Sacred Commandment. While American Jews prospered, Jews in Eastern Europe suffered. Pogroms, wholesale massacres organized by Czarist regimes, brutalized Russian Jews . In Germany and Austria, restrictions had forbidden Jews to own land, vote , enter colleges or professions, even to travel or marry freely . New waves of refugees fled to "golden" America and sent New York's Jewish population soaringfrom 500 in 1825 to 60,000 in 1880. In 1881 another explosion of pogroms in Poland and the Ukraine drove thousands more westward. At one point, 100,000 Jews a year were arriving on our shores. By 1930 one of four New Yorkers was Jewish. The newcomers had little in common with older Jewish settlers. Jews whose ancestors had come from Germany, Spain or Holland could not easily communicate with Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazim from Eastern Europe . Older settlers were now thoroughly acculturated , and they feared that the bearded , "medieval" refugees would offend American sensibilities and ignite anti-Semitism. Nonetheless , New York's Jews organized to help "our poor cousins. " A Jew does not "give" to "charity." (Indeed, there is no word for "charity" in Hebrew or Yiddish.) He fulfills a sacred commandment to care for his fellow mortals . Certainly one reason the newcomers succeeded was because the Jewish community was so energetic in caring for its people. New York's Jews helped immigrants get jobs , open stores, start businesses. German Jews supported free night schools that offered courses on citizenship, English , hygiene and medical care . The Ashkenazim also helped themselves. "The Jews had their own values," notes economist Thomas Sowell in Ethnic America. "And they took those values into and out of the slums." By religious precept, Jewish respect for the law and the closeness of Jewish family life set strong boundaries for moral behavior. Generally , the crime rate among Jews was low , and their children had lower truancy and juven- 157 �1HE JEWS AMONG US ile-delinquency rates than others. Jewish families were child-centered and moved heaven and earth to get their children a good education. Upon arriving in New York's slums, a Jewish mother would hasten to the public library, where she would hold up one, two, three fingers-the number of children for library cards . Returning from their first day at school, many Jewish youngsters would find cookies baked in the form of letters of the alphabet. Jewish immigrants planned to settle permanently; they did not want their children to suffer the poverty, terrors and humiliations they had known. And they became Americanized fast. Tyranny of Quotas. By the turn of the century, however, the paradoxes of America's competitive system produced social tensions and fanned old hatreds carried from Europe. Industry flourished , but depression and unemployment periodically recurred. The sheer speed of social change sparked blind hostilities: in the West against Chinese; in steel towns against Poles; in many places against Catholics . And now the Jews often encountered the dreadful bacillus of anti-Semitism. Housing covenants forbade the sale of homes to Jews in many places; "gentlemen's agreements" kept them out of banking, shipping, the better clubs. Many a country club sprouted such signs as: NO JEWS OR DOGS ALLOWED. In the early 1920s prestigious private universities attempted to limit Jewish enrollment. Many graduate schools discriminated against Jews. At the University of Chicago I was advised 158 by a friendly dean not to enter graduate work in English, history or philosophy: "Jews can't get teaching posts in those fields." I had begun to feel the lash of prejudice as a child in Chicago. Our neighborhood was periodically invaded by Irish or Polish hoodlums, who tore the beards of elders and smashed store windows. Frequently, I was taunted, chased or stoned. I was called a "kike," a "sheeny." World War I and the Great Depression fueled the fires of prejudice. Harshly restrictive immigration laws were passed in 1924. When Hitler came to power, Jews sought to flee to the United States, but a stringent quota system was in effect. In all the 1930s, only about 200 ,000 Jews got into the United States-but among them were people who transformed American science. A handful of refugees from NazismEinstein, Teller, von Neumann and Franck-led America into the nuclear age. The democratizing experience of an immense army and work force, united to fight racist dictators during World War II, made prejudice go out of favor. Racist theories, allegedly "scientific," were exposed as silly. The basic incompatibility of democracy with discrimination became indisputable. In the past 40 years, new Jewish immigration has shrunk to a trickle. Today there are about 5,700,000 Jews in the United States, around 2.5 percent of our population. Judaism in America is split into three branches: Orthodox (about a tenth), Conservative (about a third), Reform (about a quarter). But the connection of many to a synagogue �THE JEWS AMONG US or temple is so tenuous that perhaps 50 percent of American Jews are "secular." Only a small minority observe kosher laws. Roughly 35 percent of the Jews who get married today marry non-Jewish partners . "Jews have become more American than Jewish," says Rabbi Marc Tannenbaum of the American Jewish Committee. "And this has caused a great ambivalence. They want to be a part of the mainstream, but they also ask themselves what price they will pay for this in their survival as a people." Yet even the self-described agnostics or skeptics have a strong identification with Jewish history and values. Above all they feel the moral-ethical obligations of the Jewish tradition. The ethos of Judaism rests in part on the idea of study, which is sacred. Every synagogue had a "house of study" attached, open day and night for discussion and argument. Certainly the Jewish population has made spectacular contributions to human knowledge and welfare. More than 28 percent of the Nobel Prizes awarded to Americans have been given to Jews. Jews today are also significantly "over-represented" in ·medicine, mathematics and law . Faith and Reason. Jewish talent is just as conspicuous in the arts. Playwrights include George Kaufman, Moss Hart, Ben Hecht, Lillian Hellman, Arthur Miller, Neil Simon. Music and musical comedy were transformed by George Gershwin, Irving Berlin, Jerome Kern, Leon-, ard Bernstein, Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein. With brilliant contributions by Jack Benny, George Burns, the Marx brothers, Woody Allen and Mel Brooks, the liberating lunacy of Jewish wit revolutionized American humor. Movies were pioneered by men named Zukor, Lasky, Mayer, Fox, Goldwyn, Warner, Selznick. But the vast majority of Jews in America are not intellectuals, scientists or artists. They are ordinary people, burdened by everyday problems . A favorite saying among Jews is, "Only in America." No more is said, because no more need be said. Human history has never before seen so astonishing a phenomenon as this nation's creative hodgepodge of races, religions, cultures, creeds . And since this "melting pot" does not entirely melt, what our republic has created is a politically open society in which variety can flower in unprecedented richness. The Americanization of the Jews, and their manifold contributions to our health and education, to our economic vitality and inventiveness, to all the sciences, art, entertainment, constitutes but one sparkling chapter in the story of American civilization. For information on reprints -'~c "' of this article, see page 235 ""··· .•. ,!.-',..._ <WHEN my son turned 16, he took his driver's test. Afterward, I asked him if he had been nervous. "I was while waiting to drive," he replied . "But once the examiner got in the car, I just pretended he was Dad and ignored him." -Contributed by Rose Marie Price 160 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_NWS_1985-03-Jews-Among-Us-317 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosten, Leo Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-03 Title A name given to the resource The Jews Among Us Description An account of the resource Second article from "The Peoples of America" series on the ethnic minorities of the United States of America. Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c63760dccddd53c92139175a068b1c4c.mp4 2e7f2c36758c3c15a7f416dda810c60f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/28b86d47c5fbbbea9ea4cb1193a8404c.pdf 32ab34353e432c0eda7e5057f9c03922 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Alfred Roth (1:05:55) (00:25) Background Information • Alfred was the only boy in his small sixth grade class in Ionia County • He went to high school in Lowell • Alfred worked on his parents farm throughout his years in school • He dropped out of school in 11th grade to help his father out with the farm, but was able to get diploma equivalent in 1937 • Alfred worked for a while at the McQueen Motor Company and traveled to many states doing odd jobs • He stayed the longest in Alaska mining for gold (7:25) Pearl Harbor • At the time, Alfred had been taking government-funded classes in Seattle • He was working with sheet metal making B-17 bombers and other aircraft (8:25) Drafted into the Army • Alfred was sent to Jefferson Barracks in Fort Lewis, Washington • He then went to Missouri for basic training • Alfred went to Madison, Wisconsin for Radio Operator Training as a noncombatant • He was also sent to Houston, Texas for training and communicating with GIs in Central America • Alfred had rifle training at McClellan Field in Sacramento (11:10) Overseas • Alfred boarded a ship to Australia, but they had to take a detour and stop in New Guinea for a while to avoid Japanese submarines • He was listening and sending code; working for six hours, six hours off, and so on • Their communication was constantly interfered with by the Japanese (14:15) Alfred is Transferred to the Philippines • He was working in a radio station near the mountains in the jungle • Alfred was working with a radio mechanic, a cryptographer, and a direction finder • They were constantly harassed by the Japanese and they always slept with their rifles in their bunks (19:05) New Guinea • Alfred was working in a radio shack near the air strip • The atomic bomb was dropped on Japan shortly after he arrived • He then had enough points to go back to the US �• • He had to leave from Manila on a freighter with many other outfits It took them 30 days to reach San Francisco (23:30) Back on a Farm in Michigan • Alfred’s brothers had taken over their parents farm and he went back to working at the McQueen Motor Company • He then got a job dealing with farm milk products and spent 33 years in the area until he retired (25:30) Family • Alfred has 3 children and 6 grandchildren • He met his wife at a dance at the YWCA and was married in 1948 (27:00) Awards • Alfred has received the following awards: Asiatic Pacific Theater Medal, 2 Bronze Metal Stars, American Theater Ribbon, Philippine Liberation Ribbon, 2 Overseas Service Bars, 1 Service Stripe, Good Conduct Medal, Meritorious Unit Award (28:00) Life After Retirement • Alfred has been a life member of the VFW • He has been a member of the American Legion for 60 years • He is also a member of the Methodist Church • His military experience has been very beneficial (29:20) Alaska 1939 • There was no highway and there were vicious mosquitoes everywhere • He was staying in Seward Alaska, 70 miles away from the mining camp • They dealt with dynamite, constantly blasting and breaking up rocks • Alfred made 10 times as much mining in Alaska as he did farming in Michigan � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RothA Title A name given to the resource Roth, Alfred E. (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roth, Alfred E. Description An account of the resource Alfred Roth was born in Ionia County, Michigan. After school, Alfred traveled to many places around the United States doing odd jobs before he was drafted into the Army. Before his time in the service, some of his jobs included mining for gold in Alaska and building B-17 bombers for the government in Washington. Alfred was trained as a radio operator during World War II, working in the Philippines and New Guinea. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hanks, Robert (Interviewer) Lowell Area Historical Museum (Lowell, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Air Force World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-05-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/920d53d619eb4441d5de63866960116b.mp4 aa97fbd7bb28aa1ce3dfe0ed901ce2f7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74964602f277700bd23d0182b9f54116.pdf 659a7ab980a63a69a921ebb29fbc3bda PDF Text Text Rowe, Burt Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: Bert Rowe Length of Interview: (1:19:36) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Burt Rowe of Niles, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Burt start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born on April of 1930. Interviewer: “Okay and where were you born?” (00:32) Where I was born was Saginaw– Or, no– Off camera voice: “Saginaw, Michigan.” Yeah, it was Saginaw. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you grow up there or did you move around when you were a kid?” I grew up in– I followed my mother, she divorced my dad, and I followed her into Muskegon Heights and we joined the Marine Corps in Muskegon Heights and I flew a number of airplanes. Interviewer: “Okay, now I want to back up a little bit and fill in some more of the background. So how old were you when you moved to Muskegon Heights?” �Rowe, Burt Probably I was– Well I was a teenager. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you were still living in Saginaw then kind of through the 1930s?” Through the 1930s yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and what was your family doing for a living in the 30s? What kind of job did your dad have?” My dad had a job in the Navy he was a– Let’s see I think he was a– Seems to me that he was a television– Or a color– Interviewer: “Like a teletype operator or a radio operator?” (2:53) He was a communications operator. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and–” And he was that in the Hawaiian islands and he remained that a communications officer. Interviewer: “So he was off in Hawaii and your family was back in Michigan?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did your mother work outside of the home?” Yes, she taught. She taught grade school and also she taught primary education and she was a very good teacher. She taught me, I was one of the lucky ones that I had her for three or four years. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, now you were kind of young then but do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” Well I heard Pearl Harbor, the nasty Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and they included the city of Honolulu and Pearl Harbor and they came out of the north and they seemed to migrate southwards and they bombed Pearl Harbor and they also bombed the famous– Yeah just trying to think of what the famous– Interviewer: “Well they bombed the Army base which was Schofield Barracks and then the movie From Here to Eternity shows a scene of them doing that, they bombed the air fields and so forth too. Now was your father in Hawaii when Pearl Harbor happened?” No, he went later. Interviewer: “Okay, alright just gonna go back then to sort of your main story, so you graduated from high school in ‘48 and then a little– About a year later you decided to join the Marine Corps. Why did you join the Marine Corps?” (6:55) Because they were begging for– I wanted to bring the Marine Corps home, I probably did that as I’ve mentioned before I’ve flown a number of airplanes, aircraft, Sinclair aircraft. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were doing this before you joined the Marine Corps?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, so you took– Did you take flying lessons then?” Yes, I took flying lessons and I also– I flew airplanes during the war. Interviewer: “You mean during the Korean war?” �Rowe, Burt Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright.” The Korean war and I flew aircraft up to the time I joined the Marine Corps and I quickly— I didn’t fly during the combat. I flew airplanes and that– Moved a lot of aircraft and we also flew airplanes. I always wanted to take off on a corsair, I had one incident that I flew an airplane and I got the tail up and it was snowy and it was cold and I flew with the tail in the air and I crashed into a fence and I managed to finish the Spanish– Not Spanish, but I had the tail in the air and I managed to– Interviewer: “Well you hit a fence.” Demolition of a land house and nothing happened to me, nothing happened materially, it scared the hell out of– Interviewer: “Now I kind of want to back up again here and try to kind of put your story together in order if we can. So you enlist in the Marine Corps in about 1949, I think that was what you figured you did, and you did that voluntarily you weren’t drafted. They were looking for volunteers, now when you enlisted did you hope to be a pilot or did they tell you you couldn’t be a pilot?” (12:15) No, I didn’t hope to be a pilot, I wanted the ground troops and I kept pretty much the air wing, I was air wing for– Oh, probably two or three years. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you first– Now after you enlist, first thing you do would be to go to boot camp right?” Yeah. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay where did you go to boot camp?” I went to Parris Island. Interviewer: “Okay so you go to South Carolina.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, now what kind of reception did you get? When you arrived at Parris Island what did they do first?” Well we rode a train into Parris Island and I had control of some of the– I had control of a certain number of people. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were keeping an eye on some of the recruits or keeping them together?” (13:50) Yeah and I– had a major that was pretty salty and he gauged my confidence and he knew I flew on airplanes and so he kind of cheated a little bit, don’t ever– I won’t even mention his name but he made sure I flew a little bit. Interviewer: “Okay, well on Parris Island they weren’t flying though.” No. Interviewer: “Parris Island– That’s what I was kind of asking about was what was the experience at Parris Island like?” Oh it was rough, it was– Probably made a man out of me a lot quicker and I was stationed at Jacksonville and I also flew unofficially. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Now when you said Jacksonville, do you mean Jacksonville, Florida?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, because there’s also a Jacksonville, North Carolina that’s close to Camp Lejeune so– But you were at a naval air station at Jacksonville.” Jacksonville, Florida. Interviewer: “Right, okay.” And we had two or three guys that belonged to the same group and they also work for Michigan, Mint Michigan, and we had a jolly good time and we kind of mixed it up and we had a good time in service and I was still a sergeant and I had a crew that maintained, I think three planes. Interviewer: “Now was this at Jacksonville or in Korea or?” (17:45) That spread over to Korea. Interviewer: “Alright, now what kind of aircraft did your men work on?” They worked on Corsairs and the AU-1s, not the old fighter but we maintain AU-1s and they were pretty much a bomber– Interviewer: “Right, so ground attack aircraft rather than fighters, yeah because they used a lot of those for ground support in Korea.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so about how many men did you have in your crew?” �Rowe, Burt I had three men. Interviewer: “Okay so three men, but they would take care of three aircraft?” Yeah, they would take care of one another’s aircraft. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did they train you as a mechanic in Jacksonville or as you– You had boot camp at Parris Island and then if you’re gonna learn how to work on aircraft you need to be on an airbase.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So was it in Jacksonville where you kind of started to actually work on planes?” (19:15) Yeah I was at an aircraft base during most of the war and I maintained– Under a staff sergeant I maintained a– Three planes. Interviewer: “And then you mentioned you also got to fly them some of the time. So was that taking them from like one base to another or just to check them out to make sure they flew properly?” They allowed me, thanks to flying experience that I would move airplanes around the base. Around the base and pretty much– Flew planes occasionally, that when I could steal a ride and I would find some combat but not trained combat but higher– We had a couple of bricks– Or planes and they would act as taxi pilots and then they would do more flying than I would and I would clear the runway cause it would snow and it was pretty much land planes and corsairs. Interviewer: “Okay, now the snow– Was there snow in Korea?” Yes. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, I don’t think they have a lot of snow in Jacksonville, Florida all that often. Okay now do you remember where you were when the Korean war started? Were you in Jacksonville at that time?” I was in Jacksonville. Interviewer: “Okay, and then after it started about how long was it before you got sent over to Korea, because the war starts in about June of 1950 and how long then after that did you go to Korea?” Oh I probably spent maybe two years– One year, I probably spent one year in Korea– Excuse me. Interviewer: “So after the war started you stayed on in Jacksonville for a while before they sent you to Korea, you didn’t go right away.” (23:50) Partly. Interviewer: “So you didn’t go to Korea right away after the war started?” No. Interviewer: “Okay it took a little while and then when you did go did your– Did the whole unit go or just your group of guys who were mechanics go? Did all the pilots and the aircraft all go together or was it just a smaller–” Yeah they went by train and sent us over by train, managed to fly a little bit probably 10-20 hours– Excuse me Off camera voice: “Here. Would you like one?” �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Oh no thank you.” Off camera voice: “I beg your pardon I should’ve asked you first.” Interviewer: “I don’t drink and interview. So now you’re– To get you— Now did you go to the west coast and then go to Korea from there? So you’re talking about taking trains, do you take a train to the west coast or did you fly the planes over?” No I didn’t, I didn’t come into the west coast until I came back. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you went over to Korea then where did you ship out– Or did you fly over or are you in transport planes or did you–” I went– Transport boats. Interviewer: “Okay so you went by sea, so where did you ship out from?” (25:55) We shipped out– Hmm. Interviewer: “It could have been Jacksonville.” What? Interviewer: “It could have been Jacksonville, it could have been, you know–” No, it was San Francisco. Interviewer: “Okay well that is the west coast.” Yeah. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “So how did you get to San Francisco?” By train. Interviewer: “Okay so you did– So you take the train cross country, get on a boat in San Francisco and what do you remember about the voyage from San Francisco to Korea?” Oh it was– It was a humdinger. It was a passenger boat and it had– It had– Oh my. Interviewer: “Did they still have cabins or rooms that they put a bunch of guys in?” Yeah, they had them down underneath in fact they– I had a rude awakening one morning and the six inch cannon fired outside of Japan. It fired several rounds of ammunition and it scared the hell out of me, I was abruptly awake and it was mostly Marine Corps, it was a mixture of airmen and– Interviewer: “Ground troops?” (28:50) Ground troops and it scared the crap out of us, it was– Interviewer: “So you had the cannon firing which was bad enough, was it– Were the seas rough did people get sick?” Yes they were rough, in fact I think I went over on– I was thinking most the time we were on– I was trying to think of the name of it and I lost that. Interviewer: “Okay, but you said it was a converted passenger ship?” Yeah. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get to spend a lot of time on deck or do they make you stay below?” Well we spent a lot of time on deck and it was because of storms and they would let us into Japan. Off camera voice: “You had a hurricane or something didn’t you?” Yeah we had a hurricane and it was– What the heck I can’t remember the name of it, it was– Seems like it was the Ward and it was a– It was a boat– Or passenger boat and it was splashing and it was diving and– Interviewer: “Did you think you were going to sink?” (31:55) I thought we were a couple times and it was a– It was– I was trying to think also what port we went into and I just forgot it. Interviewer: “Well it can be a lot went to Yokohama some went to Sasebo or Osaka, there’s different bases you could’ve gone to but you think you were in Tokyo Bay somewhere or Yokosuka or– Anyway, now when you got to Japan did they let you get off the ship?” Under guard, under guard and there was quite a few– There was quite a few civilians that were on board and they also got off from that ship cause it wasn’t very comfortable. It got us with the hurricane and they wouldn’t let us go in shore, it was a hurricane so we stuck around if you can imagine and I know I got sick. Interviewer: “So they kind of had to clean the ship before you got back on it.” Yeah. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Alright, now how long did you stay in Japan? Were you just there a few hours or a few days or?” I was there a few days and– Interviewer: “Okay, alright so we were talking about– Okay you were kind of briefly in Japan and then do they put you back on the same ship to go to Korea or do you get on a different one or?” No, we flew. Interviewer: “Oh you get to fly now, okay.” We flew over to Korea in a passenger plane. Off camera voice: “From where?” From Japan, Atami– Atami, Japan. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then–” (35:16) That was an air force base. Interviewer: “Right and then where did you land in Korea?” I ended up on– Well it was pretty tough but we ended up on a flight of trainers and I fell asleep and above the mountains and I’d fallen asleep and all of a sudden I got a change of pitch in the airplane. It was a fallen– It lost its power on the engine and it kind of startled me out of my sleep and I said I’d never jump from an airline and I did, I was probably about half way down the plane and I proceeded to say “I’m gonna jump.” I thought the airplane had changed pitch and it did and it kind of scared the hell out of me. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, but they got the power back though?” Yeah, oh yeah they got the power back cause I was halfway to the rear to jump out the tail end of the plane but I suddenly, red face and all, and afterwards I– Off camera voice: “I don’t know how much time he had but it’s been about an hour do you want to go on or do you want to– Because–” Interviewer: “Well, my time is actually pretty flexible.” Off camera voice: “What?” Interviewer: “I’m pretty flexible I mean were here probably like to just finish–” Off camera voice: “Okay, I was just trying to make it go a little faster–” Interviewer: “No, no we’re okay it sort of– It takes however long it takes. Okay, so the flight to Korea was interesting. Alright but you land safely in Korea, now where did they– What base were you at in Korea, so where were you working?” (39:10) I was appointed sergeant working for staff sergeant and I was– I had control of two fighter planes– Three flight planes and the crew that I had was– Interviewer: “These are the same guys you had in Jacksonville?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now where were you based, what air base were you on?” Ata– I think it was Atami. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “But that’s Japan.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay but in Korea though you were on a base?” Yeah, I was on a base in Korea. Interviewer: “But you don’t know which one?” No it was– Interviewer: “Were there any towns nearby that you can remember or?” No, it was– We had a Japanese– Some teenager and they– Off camera voice: “Didn’t they work for you?” (40:47) Yeah, they worked for us. Interviewer: “Were these Japanese or Koreans? You’re in Korea, you'd have Koreans.” It was Koreans. Interviewer: “Right, okay.” Yeah, it was Koreans they were washing planes and they weren’t mechanically involved in the planes, that was our job but we had a few Koreans that were– They were probably farmers, most of them were farmers and they also carried bazookas and they were– We kept an eye on them and killed a few of them but we got along with them mostly. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, you said you killed a few of them?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Were there people who were attacking your base or trying to steal things or?” They were stealing and they– A few of them were pretty reliable and they would be– Sometimes they would be caught out in the field and they would have firearms and they were actually farmers and this was in– This was in Japan. Interviewer: “In Japan rather than Korea?” Yeah. Interviewer: “So they were Japanese farmers carrying weapons around?” (43:57) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay…now but I guess– I’m trying to sort out here but basically your time overseas, did you spend a lot of time on a base in Japan or were you really just in Korea?” I went to Korea. Interviewer: “Okay, so you shouldn’t have been seeing a whole lot of Japanese farmers.” No. Interviewer: “If you’re in Korea. Okay so the guys carrying the guns would have been in Korea?” �Rowe, Burt Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, I’m just trying to keep that straight for the benefit of the audience here, okay alright.” Yeah that is correct. Interviewer: “Okay, now the base that you were on was this just Marine aircraft there or were there Air Force planes too or just your guys?” There were some Air Force planes, there are some fighter groups that were on ground. Interviewer: “Alright, now who provided security for your base? Did you have Army or Marines or?” (45:05) I don’t know, I don’t really know. Interviewer: “So it wasn’t you?” No, no but we had a sergeant of the guard and they were Marines and they furnished most of security around the base. Interviewer: “Now did you have any trouble with anyone ever trying to attack the base whether air attacks or artillery or anything?” No, there was nothing like that and there was one incident where we had to shoot the Japanese out of the air and that was– They were some bombers that would bomb the Koreans that were active against us. They would bomb outside of– Geez, trying to remember. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “So they were attacking whatever stuff closer to the front lines or would they attack your base as well?” Well they would attack the base, they were Japanese. Interviewer: “Or Chinese maybe, the Japanese weren’t fighting in this war. There were Koreans and you had– Let’s see the North Koreans and there was Chinese who were fighting you.” They were Chinese or Jap– They weren’t Japan but– Interviewer: “They were the bad guys.” (48:10) Yeah. Off camera voice: “You want a kleenex?” Yeah, they were– Interviewer: “Now would they send just a few bombers at you or a lot of them?” They would send fighter bombers and there would be patrols throughout the day. Interviewer: “Now were these– The fighter bombers were those the Chinese or Korean ones that were attacking you or are those the ones that you sent after them?” They were ones that we sent after them. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and so was it your aircraft that shot down the enemy bomber or was it anti aircraft guns? Cause you said you shot one down.” �Rowe, Burt Yeah we shot– We shot our share of them. Interviewer: “Okay, but was it your aircraft that shot the enemy aircraft down or did you have anti aircraft guns that were shooting?” We had guns that would– We would shoot and also we played baseball against– Interviewer: “Some of the Koreans?” Some of the– No the G.I’s, the G.Is and they would– I played first base and hard ball and I– We had Marines shooting at hurricanes and some of these cases we fired on Korean fighters and they– And sometimes they would happen during the ball games and there’d be strafing, that type. Interviewer: “Okay, so a little bit of seventh inning stretch at the wrong time. Okay, now most of the time was it pretty safe on your base?” (51:22) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, now what kind of living quarters did you have? Did you sleep in tents or in barracks?” We slept in tents. Interviewer: “Okay, how big were the tents? Were they two men or six men or?” They were probably about six men tents and we’d get shot at once in a while and fact is in Korea I had a sergeant try to clean my clock and he tried to– Tried to impose his ugly body and I ended up trying to run through the door, you know it was– There was a little hand to hand combat. Interviewer: “Okay, now see, were you there– So you were there at least a full year, so were you there during the winter in Korea?” �Rowe, Burt Yes. Interviewer: “And what was winter in Korea like?” It was cold, it was cold and snow. Interviewer: “Did you have any kind of heater inside the tent or did you just have sleeping bags?” We had sleeping bags and cots. Interviewer: “But was there a stove or anything like that or?” Yeah there was heat and they were either kerosine heat and it was– Fact is I crashed through a door trying to get out the tent and we had a little bit of tent and quonset huts and we had fire pits outside, it– Pretty shaky sometimes. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you ever get to go into Seoul or into any of the larger cities or towns?” (54:40) Yeah, I got into Seoul and we didn’t really get anything in Japan. Fact is we got along with the Japanese probably as well as could be and we didn’t really have any hand to hand combat with the Japanese. Interviewer: “Of course you weren’t in Japan, but with the Koreans either though, I mean you didn’t have trouble with the Korean civilians.” No, no we didn’t have any combat with the– Not any known combat with the Koreans because we were– I like to think that we were too good for, but that wasn’t the case. We had some aircraft skirmishes but it didn’t– It wasn’t that much combat. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, so the planes that you were working on, would they come back with bullet holes or battle damage?” Oh yeah, yeah we would repair our aircraft and it had bullet holes. Off camera voice: “Didn’t you have some night time visitors?” Oh yeah, we had night time fighters that would– They would attack during the night time and they would share a good part of the combat. Interviewer: “And would they just send one or two of those at a time to kind of keep you awake or bother you?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, the bed check Charlie thing, yeah.” (58:25) Yeah, the bed check, accurately portrayed. Interviewer: “Now when they came at night, I mean did you have any aircraft that would fly at night to chase them off or did you just have the anti-aircraft guns? When the enemy attacks at night would you fight back or just let them go?” They would occasionally have night time fighters and they would try to– They would, the Koreans would, try to fight them off but they never completed any casualties but they– There wasn’t too much, there wasn’t probably too much combat between fighters. Interviewer: “Now if you think about the time that you spent in Korea, are there other kinds of memories you have of that, that you haven’t talked about yet?” �Rowe, Burt Yeah. Interviewer: “So what other stories could you bring in here?” Not to tell stories but there probably weren’t too many– Too many of approaches by women but they always get in the picture. Interviewer: “Okay, so there were women around looking for business.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah that was part of life in then, now were there– Would they be off of the base and men would go find them or would they come onto the base?” (1:01:25) Well sometimes they come onto base but they didn’t have too many. Interviewer: “Well there wasn’t a big town close by or anything.” No. Interviewer: “You were kind of out in the country some place, so lost a whole lot of business.” Yeah, we were probably– It was probably combat free if you figure out what I mean, they were non-combatant. Interviewer: “Alright well we were talking about just sort of what life in Korea was like and that kind of thing and you would talk some about encountering locals of different sorts. You had business women, if you will, who were around the base and so forth but you also had Koreans who worked for you on the base, they cleaned the planes. Did you have people who cleaned–” �Rowe, Burt The clothes? Interviewer: “Yeah the clothes and that kind of thing for you.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay alright now while you were in Korea did you pretty much stay with the same group of guys the whole time? So you came in with your crew and then stayed with them?” Well you pretty much– You pretty much stayed with them. Interviewer: “Right, because it wasn’t like you had– Sometimes you had people who rotated in and out of units and would kind of come and go but your guys all pretty much were with you the whole time?” (1:03:27) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you leave Korea before the fighting officially ended? So there’s an armistice in 1953.” Yeah, well I would say the armistice of ‘53 was probably– Did I serve in Miami? Off camera voice: “Did you what?” Did I serve in Miami? I can’t remember well. Interviewer: “Well when you enlisted did you enlist for three years or for four years?” Three years. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, and if you went in ‘49 that would take you to ‘52, but you might have come back from Korea, had some time left on your enlistment and then they gotta put you somewhere. So you think you went to Miami then?” I went to Miami, yeah. Interviewer: “Now do you remember anything about the trip from Korea back to the U.S? How did they get you home from Korea?” Boat. Interviewer: “Okay and was that ride any better than the other one?” Yeah, it was a lot more peaceful and that was also a lot more wind and so we had the factor of wind. (1:05:20) Off camera voice: “And then he had to stay offshore.” Yeah, we had to stay offshore pretty much in place and it was– Interviewer: “Now was that when you were waiting to land in the U.S you had to stay offshore?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so kind of like when you went to Japan you had to stay offshore, but this time there was no typhoon.” No, there was some wind but nothing like what was going over. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did you land in the states?” San Francisco. Interviewer: “Okay, now did they give you a leave to go home or?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then after that you went to Miami?” Yup. Interviewer: “Okay, now was it your same group now at Miami or or did they put you in a different unit?” (1:06:32) Different unit. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what were you doing in Miami?” I was doing the same thing except I had civilian– Or not civilian but it was a lot quieter, we didn’t have any Japanese or Koreans or anything like that but we found our own contact sometimes with officers. Interviewer: “Okay, so when you’re off duty you’re out there having a good time and sometimes too good a time.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now were you still working on corsairs or did you have different aircraft?” �Rowe, Burt We had, probably different aircraft cause we had a lot of– Particularly in california and we had a lot of characters. I still say I lose it, the term, they– We had our skirmishes but we didn’t have any bullets coming back. Interviewer: “Alright, I was asking about the aircraft you were working on, what kind of planes did you have in Miami?” Seems like they had– They had more jets. Interviewer: “Okay, yeah cause jets had come in in a big way.” They had more jets protecting either practice missions or regular, a lot of that. Interviewer: “Okay, so did you get to work on the jets?” Yes, I did. I worked on jets and I didn’t fly any but– Cause we had foreign, well we didn't have foreign but we had– We had [unintelligible] and it didn’t amount to much of anything but there were a few fighters and most of them were– Most of them were flown by– (1:11:00) Interviewer: “Well you have Navy pilots or Marine pilots.” No, they were down in Southern Korea, most of them were corsairs. Interviewer: “Yeah, okay I guess we’ve been talking about– We kind of finished what we were talking about so the last part of your enlistment when you were in Florida and when you’re there you have jet aircraft and so forth to work on.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and that kind of thing. Okay, and then so basically– Now was that the last duty station you had?” �Rowe, Burt Yes. Interviewer: “So you finish that, okay.” Well I had– Interviewer: “Did you have any time in California or just in and out?” I was in and out of California and I probably– Maybe I have more liberty but we didn’t have the combat planes we had before cause most of them were has beens. Interviewer: “So you had older aircraft?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so now as you were getting to the end of your enlistment did the Marine Corps people encourage you to stay in? Did they want you to reenlist?” (1:13:23) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did they offer you?” They– I think that’s probably when I made sergeant. Interviewer: “Well, haven't you been sergeant already?” No, I was probably sergeant working under a staff sergeant. Interviewer: “Okay, but they offered you a promotion to staff sergeant?” �Rowe, Burt No, they didn’t– They didn’t combat or they just left us alone. Interviewer: “Okay, so they didn’t really try that hard to get you to reenlist?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so then when you left– So when do you leave the Marine Corps then? Is that ‘52 after three years?” Three years. Interviewer: “Okay, so ‘52 and what did you do after you got out? Did you go back to Michigan?” I bragged about the Marine Corps. No, I came back to Michigan and it was pretty calm. (1:15:00) Off camera voice: “And he married me.” Interviewer: “You got married, okay what year did you get married?” Oh I’d say– Off camera voice: “Go ahead, tell him.” Interviewer: “This is a test.” Off camera voice: “Tell him. What year did we get married?” I got married I think– I don’t know, I can't remember when we got married. �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Oh that’s not good, okay. Okay but did you meet after he got back from Korea?” Off camera voice: “Yes.” Yeah, I got married back in, well I think it was back in Miami wasn’t it? Off camera voice: “Mhmm. Well we actually got married in Benton Harbor.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so you knew him while he was still in the Marine Corps? Okay, alright we’re sorting that part out. Okay and then what kind of work did you go into? What kind of job did you have?” Well I think I turned down a job of– Didn’t I? Off camera voice: “Well he went to work for Clark Equipment Company.” Yeah, that’s the most work that I did as a civilian. Interviewer: “Alright, and what did you do for them? Was it manufacturing or sales or repairs?” (1:16:40) I had a division– Or not a division but I had a– I can’t– Koreans? Off camera voice: “Nothing to do with Korea, he said what kind of work did you do for Clark Equipment Company?” Yeah, I ran the– What the hell was it? �Rowe, Burt Interviewer: “Well you’re operating a machine or were you leading a group of people?” No, I don’t– Leading, I was leading people. Interviewer: “Okay, so like a foreman?” Yup, general foreman. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you think back about the time you spent in the Marine Corps how do you think that affected you or did you learn anything from it?” Well I bragged about the Marine Corps, other than that I probably, I went to school I finished out the– Off camera voice: “Well you got your college degree.” Yeah my college degree. (1:18:43) Interviewer: “Okay, so you got G.I benefits from it.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now do you think you also grew up a little while you were in there?” Yeah, I didn’t brag quite so much. Interviewer: “Very good, alright well you’re not the only person to be proud of having been in the Marine Corps. So let’s close this out by thanking you for taking the time to talk to me today.” �Rowe, Burt Off camera voice: “We are here and there’s a lady that works here at this place and she brought her three sons up to meet him since we’ve been here because her first son wants to be in the Marines. I thought that was, you know, very, very special that she would want him to meet a Marine.” �Rowe, Burt � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoweB2177V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowe, Bert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12 Title A name given to the resource Rowe, Bert (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Bert Rowe was born in April of 1930 in Saginaw, Michigan, and grew up with his mother in Muskegon Heights. Before graduating high school in 1948, Rowe attended civilian flight school. After graduating, he enlisted into the Marine Corps in 1949 with the expectation of being placed into the infantry. Rowe attended Boot Camp at Parris Island, South Carolina. After Boot Camp, he was stationed at a Naval Air Station in Jacksonville, Florida, where he began flying for the Corps. He was assigned to a crew of three other mechanics and worked with the Marine Corps’ Corsair ground attack aircraft. When the Korean War broke out in 1950, Rowe’s unit was eventually sent to San Francisco, California, before being shipped to Japan. From Japan, Rowe’s crew from Jacksonville was flown to an airbase in Korea where he was appointed as Sergeant overseeing the maintenance of three fighter planes. The airbase would occasionally come under attack by groups of North Korean or Chinese fighter bombers, which prompted the personnel on the base to launch patrol squadrons in pursuit. At night, the base lived under threat of being attacked by a few, sporadic nighttime fighter bombers. In their free time, Rowe and the other troops played baseball while living in six-person tents. During the winter months, the troops relied on their sleeping bags, tent stoves, and outdoor fire pits for warmth. Rowe also recalled briefly visiting Seoul where he and the troops got along well with Korean civilians. Overall, his unit experienced little combat and spent much of its time repairing battle worn aircraft. After being shipped back to the United States in 1952 toward the end of his three-year enlistment, Rowe spent some time in Miami, Florida, serving with a different crew. In Miami, his crew maintained jet fighter aircraft--a newly introduced technology to the U.S. Armed Forces. Once officially discharged from the Corps in 1952, Rowe returned to Michigan, got married, and went to work for Clark Equipment Company as a General Foreman. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Rowe was proud about having served in the Marine Corps and was grateful for the GI Bill for helping him complete his higher education. He also believed that the Marine Corps helped him mature as an individual. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74b523216e0bf2b7be6b741a18f21dd0.mp4 4a2faf2602c863e62d6c54b3c8d98cda https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9395fa6ee18cd2f695d2def9fa2d3141.pdf 5f52183825a2352835949600dcfc57d1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Everett "Cappy" Rowe (1:48:42) Background Information (00:15) • • • • • • • • • • • He believes he was born in Oklahoma City but was never told the exact location of his birth. (00:15) His father worked in oil fields and his mother died in a tent fire when Cappy was 1. (00:49) He was never told that his step mother was not his birth mother until he had exited the Air Force in 1971. (1:27) His family moved around to a series of states in the Northwest. (2:45) Cappy attended high school in Iowa in 1936. The graduating class of his school was 8 kids. (3:10) He attended the University of Iowa seeking a degree in chemical engineering. (4:13) His father was then moved to Oklahoma so Cappy transferred to the University of Oklahoma. He was in the ROTC. (8:49) On June 4th 1940 Cappy was commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant of Artillery. (9:55) Cappy wanted to be a pilot in the Air Corps. He joined the ROTC to peruse this dream, however he was denied the opportunity due to high blood pressure. (5:20) The ROTC had both motorized and horse drawn artillery. (6:21) There were 2 days between Cappy being commissioned and his service at Fort Sill. (7:42) Service at Fort Sill, Oklahoma (8:00) • • • • His first task was to take a basic artillery course. (8:22) Cappy took both the first class and the second class for artillery training. Most men took just the first class, or didn’t take them consecutively. (10:00) He was then sent to Louisiana in 1941. He hated his service here because of all the mosquitoes. (11:15) In late 1941 Cappy placed in his application to be in the Air Corps. 2 months later he was requested to resubmit his application because half of it was lost. (12:08) Pilots Training (14:20) • • • • • • • Cappy did receive and was awarded his wings. He was trained as a spotter aboard an aircraft to help guide artillery fire. (14:25) 4 months after being rewarded his wings, Cappy applied for pilot’s training. He was denied as he had just completed a special training. (15:15) Cappy did eventually complete his pilot's training in San Antonio, Texas. (16:25) In January of 1942 Cappy’s girlfriend who was a nurse received orders to go to the Philippians. Cappy married his girlfriend in order to keep her from going to the Philippians for service. (17:00) Cappy was sent to Colman, Texas for the flying component of his course. (19:20) He had a civilian instructor. (20:22) Men were rewarded with a silk scarf after completing so much solo fly time. (21:37) �• • • Cappy was sent to Fort Worth, Texas to train on B24s. (22:50) Cappy was given the choice to continue his training in Nevada or Los Angeles. He picked Marsh Field, Los Angeles, in 1943. There the men prepared rigorously to travel overseas. (25:45) Cappy picked his bombardier and navigator. (26:50) Deployment to the Pacific (27:10) • • • • • • • • • • • • When being sent to the Pacific, the men flew to Hawaii. During the trip, one engine blew. Repairs took 2 days. (27:20) Cappy went surfing while he waited for the men to fix the plane. (28:40) He turned himself in when the plane landed in Fiji due to a bad sunburn he received while in Hawaii. (30:39) As the aircraft landed in Guadalcanal, the men were shot at. This was fairly common. (30:30) Cappy was in Guadalcanal for 1.5 weeks and made one raid. (31:28) Cappy when was sent to a different base where the men went on an 18 hour mission. (34:05) Because of the range of the bombing raid, the enemy was not expecting of the raid. (35:41) A C-47 was assigned to Cappy’s group. The aircraft was used to send and pick up men who went to Australia on leave. (38:12) While Cappy was on leave, his crew was taken by another Major. One their first mission with the new Major, they were shot down and were killed. (39:00) Cappy went on a mission where they did not drop their load. On the way back home, Cappy saw a destroyer. Cappy bombed the destroyer and sunk it. (40:50) Cappy flew 25 missions all together. (45:16) Cappy was involved with the bombing of the Philippine Islands. (45:50) Life in the Air Corps (47:54) • • • • Living conditions were not very good while serving in the pacific. Cappy often stayed in a tent. At one point the men did have access to a navy base that had great food. (47:54) At some location, men had to put their tents up on platforms due to rain. (49:14) Bombers would often fly over at night. The men ran to their fox hole when they heard these sounds. (49:42) Men were ordered to put the flood lights on to the aircrafts when they came over for 5 seconds. Then they were ordered to shut the lights off. (51:23) Journey Back to the U.S. (53:50) • • • • • • • • 700 men were placed on a 300 man ship for transport. (53:51) While traveling, the men hit a typhoon. (55:00) Many aboard the ship got sick. The typhoon lasted 4 days. (56:00) One man got alcohol to drink. What he didn’t realize was that he had rubbing alcohol. (57:00) When he arrived in the U.S. he got orders to travel to Portland, Oregon. (58:06) When the men arrived, much of the men’s clothing and uniforms were either destroyed or dirty. (58:21) If the men were near their home, often they just went home rather than going to a base to be discharged. (59:24) His wife was staying in Oklahoma while he was in the service. (1:00:00) �• Cappy decided to stay in the Air Corps rather than being discharged. (1:00:42) Service in England (1:05:11) • • • • • • • Cappy was sent to Tennessee with all the other re-enlisted Corps men. (1:05:11) Cappy was sent to England. He was not happy about this and wished to go some place different. (1:03:24) Cappy flew a C-47 in England. He also had a biplane to fly. (1:04:40) He flew to Paris. It was difficult to get a chance to land in the air field as it was very busy. (1:06:53) Cappy was in London, England for approx. 9 months. (1:07:25) Capppy volunteered himself to go back to the states but unfortunately was not aloud and instead was sent to South Africa. (1:07:39) He spent much of his time there transporting men and supplies. (1:08:31) Service in South Africa (1:10:50) • • • • • • • • • • • • On the ship going down to South Africa, the men played deck tennis in order for the them to stayed entertained. A doctor that Cappy had befriended wrote him an I.O.U. for a free delivery of a child. (1:11:00) Cappy served in South Africa for 3 years. He went on 3 safaris each costing 5 dollars each. (1:13:51) He did a lot of hunting of exotic game. (1:14:20) Cappy also played for a base ball team. He was called the home run king of South Africa. (1:16:00) The I.O.U. was collected from the doctor. (1:18:10) Cappy was then sent to Austria where a unit was still occupying the area. (1:20:18) The soldiers were often kicked off of land while serving in Austria by angry civilians. (1:21:04) Cappy flew himself and a Colonel to England so that they could golf on a famous golf course. (1:23:02) Cappy served in Austria for 3 years (1953-1956). (1:24:05) Cappy was one of the first men to see a Soviet Mig 5. This caused great concern for him and other soldiers who had witnessed it. (1:24:39) Cappy served as an attaché in Austria after the occupation ended. (1:26:15) The Austrian civilians mostly just went along with what the U.S. told them. (1:27:40) Service in the U.S. (1:28:36) • • • • • Cappy was sent by boat from England to New York. He also brought back a car he had purchased while in Europe. (1:28:36) He received a message from Washington shortly after arriving in the U.S. assigning him to DCSI. But he was then reassigned to the General officer of Colorado air in Colorado Springs. (1:28:54) Cappy served with NAADC in Colorado Springs. (1:32:15) He served for 4 years in Colorado Springs. Approx 1955-1960. (1:33:24) He was transferred to DIA in 1960 where he was an executive officer of a Navy Officer. He was promoted to Colonel. (1:33:57) �Service in Hawaii (1:35:25) • • • • • • He was shortly stationed performing intelligence work in Hawaii. (1:35:27) There the men relayed instructions in on Vietnam. (1:36:33) For a short time he worked in an operations officer. He was irritated about how men were treating the returning Vietnam veterans. (1:38:47) He ordered the men who worked under him to greet the returning veterans when they returned to the states. (1:39:58) Cappy served as a supervisor over a wide range of assignments. (1:41:25) He retired in approx 1971. (1:43:37) Retirement (1:44:38) • • • First he lived on Marco Island after his retirement. (1:44:40) Cappy’s wife received a job in Congress. (1:46:40) He did not get a job after retiring. He simply enjoyed retirement. (1:47:38) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoweC1436V Title A name given to the resource Rowe, Everett (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowe, Everett Description An account of the resource Cappy Rowe served in the U.S. Air Force from 1941 to 1971. He enlisted in the Army prior to the start of the war, and trained initially as an artillerist, but eventually was accepted for pilot training. He served in the Pacific during the latter part of World War II, flying out of Guadalcanal and other islands. After the war, he had assignments in England, South Africa, Austria, Hawaii and the continental US, doing various types of intelligence work, and retired as a full colonel. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Air Corps United States. Air Force World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/10cc480b3da16c8694caa3d32f8d7a4e.mp4 b14e4d072e3b3687a78ac84fce11adbd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/211acd7f4349b845c602f54eb777f2de.pdf f4851130e1606f2955e81da2ad95e0cb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Gordon Rowe Length: 44:07 (00:15) Background Information      Gordon was born on May 23, 1925 in Detroit, Michigan He grew up in Highland Park and went to school in Ferndale Gordon’s father worked for Ford Motor Company and his mother was a house wife When he was about 7 years Gordon got very sick with whooping cough, scarlet fever, and a few other sicknesses that basically kept him quarantined in his house for 2 years Gordon played baseball in high school and later got a job working after school (5:10) Marines  There were many young men in Ferndale that wanted to enlist and their town had an unusually high percentage of Marines  Gordon had wanted to enlist after Pearl Harbor was attached, but had not yet graduated from high school and was told that he would at least need his diploma to enlist  That summer he went through summer classes so that he could finish high school early and was allowed to enlist when he was 17 years old  Gordon went through 8 weeks of basic training in San Diego, California, consisting of much physical activity that he enjoyed  He then went through 6 weeks of advanced training in intelligence and joined the 5th Marine Division, which was a new division that had just begun forming (13:55) Iwo Jima  Gordon’s division was sent to Hawaii in May of 1942[1944?] and they were told that they would serve as replacements in Saipan  Later his entire division was sent to Iwo Jima for the invasion  It took they two months to make it there because they were waiting for supplies and other ships in Hawaii  They landed and took an LST to shore where shells were flying all around them  There were many casualties on the landing and thousands of men were wounded  Gordon spent 36 days in Iwo Jima securing the island and then headed back to Hawaii  In Hawaii Gordon worked as a Marine swimming guard with men that were on R & R at the beach (23:45) End of War �    Once the war had ended Gordon was sent to Japan to work for 6 months and then to Palau for another 6 months There he continued working as a swimming guard, though he had though that he would be sent home after his time in Japan He later found that all the swimming areas in Palau contained many alligators There were still many Japanese soldiers hiding in the jungle that did not know that the war was over (27:25) Discharged  Gordon was sent back to San Diego in 1946 and had to remain in the barracks for another 19 days until all his time was up  He then had furlough in Michigan for 30 days and was later sent to Washington DC to be discharged  Gordon later met his wife at an ice cream shop and got married in 1950; they had 2 daughters and 1 son  He began working as an underwriter for an insurance company, where he worked for 10 years  Gordon later got a job at a hospital working as a purchasing agent and as office manager (38:10) Looking Back  Gordon feels that the Marine Corps did not provide enough academic training  There was a lot of physical work, discipline, and obedience, which did not help him later in his career  Gordon still has many good friends from the service that he goes to the local VFW with � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoweG Title A name given to the resource Rowe, Gordon (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowe, Gordon Description An account of the resource Gordon Rowe was born on May 23, 1925 in Detroit, Michigan. He had wanted to enlist in the Marines after Pearl Harbor was attacked, but was too young at the time. The following summer he spent all his time at summer school so that he could graduate early and enlist in the Marines. Gordon went through basic training in San Diego, California for 8 weeks and then was assigned to help form the new 5th Marine Division. Gordon was sent to Iwo Jima for the invasion and was there for 36 days securing the island. After the war ended he continued working in the Pacific for another year before he was discharged in 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-03-10 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7494ef5b62f3a0ad80fa2ceb1095e5af.mp4 682591fcd213c4fd6063b1d1332d9f72 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30c5acc55099a54d37ca7b7a4db2002c.pdf aa6a91fcf77978c3a3f1f2689f6b8076 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 15:38 Stephen Rowe Vietnam Veteran United States Air Force; 20 years in the service 7602 Air Intelligence Group (15:07) Stephen Rowe • Assistant principal at Forest Hills High School (15:27) Before the service • Went to school • College at University of Florida • ROTC o Prepares you to be officer in a given service (16:39) Why the Air Force • Dad was in the Air Force for 30 years in the field of intelligence • Like intelligence and liked the way the Air Force worked so joined (17:18) Service • Graduated from University of Florida and was commissioned • Dad went to Hawaii with the service • Rowe went to Hawaii with parents and entered the service there • First assignment was to Vietnam (18:42) Combat • Saw combat in the Republic of Vietnam 1969-1970 (19:01) Time in the Service • Signal Intelligence o Philippines o 2 years o Intercepted signals from the enemy o Target was China, Russia, and S.E. Asia • Defense Intelligence School in Washington, DC o Graduated with a diploma o Learned about all types of intelligence services o 1 year • Clandestine Service School o Learned about spying, how to handle spies, etc. o 9 months • Vietnam o 1 year o Team Chief of an Interrogation Team in Nha Trang o Interrogated POWs of Vietnam • Washington, DC o Short training �• • Assigned to CIA for 4 years in Seattle, Washington Fresno, CA o Taught Air Force ROTC at Fresno State • NSA (Fort Meade, Maryland) o 4 years o NSA Director’s Chief Briefer o Briefing about NSA to all visiting generals, military people • Fort Belvoir, VA to USAF Human Intelligence • Retired after 20 years in the service (23:06) Most memorable moment • Debriefing of our POWs who had been captured in Vietnam and held as POWs for 7 or 8 years • When war ended, POWs had to be debriefed • When in the CIA, assigned to certain places to do debriefing process o Went to a base by Riverside, CA o All debriefing was done at hospitals o Spent 2-4 weeks with the men while they told their story (24:35) Casualties • Not a lot in the part of the Air Force that he was in • His group would usually fly in after the battles were over to find the POWs or casualties (25:18) Fear • Yes. Fear that won’t return • Every time you fly, you didn’t know if you would get shot down • Fear of ambush • Fear that would not do the kind of job you wanted to do (26:14) Food • Sometimes good, sometimes just ok (27:04) Leisure • In Vietnam, stationed in a coastland city so would go to the beach sometimes • Sometimes drive around the city (27:45) Staying in contact with loved ones • MAIL! (28:15) Holidays • Not fun because not with family • Military didn’t go overboard with celebrations • Christmas was the loneliest time o Get drinks with the buddies and toast to wives and children o Never toasted to win the war but to get home soon • Entertainment groups would sometimes come through o Bob Hope (30:35) Skills learned • Gained a lot through the training • * DVD cut off here. Seems as though he had more to say � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoweS Title A name given to the resource Rowe, Stephen (Interview outline and video), 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowe, Stephen Description An account of the resource Stephen Rowe is a Vietnam veteran who served in the United States Air Force for 20 years in the field of intelligence. As a member of the 7602 Air Force Intelligence Group, Rowe went to Vietnam, the Philippines, and various bases throughout the United States. In this interview, Rowe gives an overview of his 20 years spent in the service and answers questions about food, free time, holidays, fear, and combat. One of his most memorable moments occurred just after Vietnam, when Rowe was assigned to the debriefing of one of the Vietnam POWs. Rowe spent 2-4 weeks in a hospital near Riverside, CA listening to the POWs story. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Koptik, Rachael (Interviewer) Tittle, Victoria (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-06-04 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9034b5f1c6e3d5633f917bbf867187e7.mp4 c0e15153b46a8cc6de240a16df923b96 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/77869612840f9882bb63369a9f81d1e3.pdf 6ad642aec9d470c4f6852947cc364648 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Stephen Rowe Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 2 [Barbara] Okay, whenever you feel comfortable, if you could just comment on that notion of students adapting to the college. [Rowe] Well, I think a theme that comes up again and again… perhaps the central theme of progressive education hinges on the distinction between the active and the passive mode. Now James' way of putting that was, I think, what he said in the talks to teachers that he gave in Boston which is really his only sustained statement about education. The center of that statement was something to the effect that in education there's one maxim, and that is no impression without expression. Now, the point is that education continuously runs the cycle of impression and expression and that the problem with most of education is not that it's wrong, but that it only runs half the cycle. In other words, it tests… it gives the students a certain set of impressions and then tests to see if they've gotten the impressions. Now, again, the point is not that that's entirely wrong, but that runs only half the cycle. From James' standpoint, and from the standpoint of progressive education generally, that is frequently called active as opposed to passive education, one for every unit of impression there has to be some expression. One has to do something with it. One has to do the kind of… engage in the kind of doing that enables the student to come into possession of the material. Not simply into the possession of the certificates that says that they have temporarily gotten the impression. And there are empirical studies and point out that that kind of learning, take the test, which certifies that you've gotten the proper impressions. That kind of learning disappears very, very fast. I mean the retention curve with that kind of learning, as compared to the more active learning, shows the initial retention higher, but the curve drops off very rapidly. Whereas in the more active mold, which is to say that impression has been followed by expiration – in this case in writing, or internship kind of work, or what we in the early days call project-oriented education – the retention initially is a little lower, but it remains far after the test material has been forgotten. So, with most of our students coming out of traditional high schools and colleges, they have come to us frequently with some notion about what they want at the college, but mostly habituated to this passive mode. And I think one of the basic events that we see over and over again with students is this kind of crucial moment of awakening to the more active mode. And so frequently – and especially entering students – there will be this very distinct process of engaging education in the more active that is initially perceived as frustrating and indeed it �seems to me that to enable someone to make the transition from the passive to the active mode, there is a certain amount of turbulence and frustration. In fact, a good curriculum should induce a kind of frustration that leads to crossing over this threshold. And it seems to me that the, quote, William James students – the ones who are sort of self-evidently reflective of the college at its best – are those who have made that transition and who are able to participate in this active mode of learning. And I perhaps should say that one of the reasons for the demise of the college was the difficulty, late in college, getting students to do that. The influence of career, careerism, as well as the conservatives and the culture, meant that more and more students were resistant to that process and more and more were willing to defer to authority and to wish to be told. And the more survival became the issue, and the more insecure people became, the more we saw real resistance on the part of students to cross that threshold and enter into the more active mode. But the point of contact, again, with William James was the central statement: "No impression without expression." And when we worked well, I think we continuously ran that whole cycle. [Barbara] Perfect! [Rowe] Good, good, good, good. Next question. [Barbara] Is this a useful question? I'm concerned… I'm sorry. Whenever you're ready to go. [Rowe] Okay, I think that James the person is difficult to understand, William James College was difficult to understand, and what both the college and the figure representative are difficult to understand. But I don't mean it is difficult to understand in the sense of being abstract, or many concepts, or it takes a great effort in the intellectual sense. The difficulty in understanding, it seems to me, is perceptual. It's a little bit like the faces and vases diagram that you get in Psychology 101. In other words, the diagram shows that as you look at it one way it's a vase and as you look at it another way it's two faces looking at each other. It's a gestalt, it's a question of perceptual angle. Now James, the figure, again I think is useful in understanding the college, James, another way to say what the opposition was… the two parts of the culture, neither one of which was sufficient, and the brilliance of the figure James… William James coming to a third orientation that was sufficient. James needed to do philosophy. He needed to make sense of things. He needed to understand life as one whole thing, and the schools of thought they were available to him were both insufficient. On the one side there was the German Idealism, which was precisely that theoretical detachment and ivory tower construction of brand theories that don't relate to anything real, on the one side. And on the other side, the reigning British Empiricism, which was enormously superficial, which literally stood around on street corners and counted things. Neither of those world views or perspectives �he found adequate. And one way to explain his genius is that he met that fundamental position, and move through it, and was able to construct a more adequate philosophy. And I think from this standpoint the- a way to articulate that is in terms of a statement he made its end of his career, when he said: "If this culture is to achieve health and vitality, once again, we must turnover, lie face down, and look into the thick of things." In other words, the traditional orientation represented by the German Idealism tended to understand life by taking a transcendent perspective out there. And that became very problematic in the twentieth century. Nietzsche's famous "God is dead" is the most dramatic and very confusing statement of that. That the way of understanding life through a transcendent principle that's out there seemed to no longer work, going to eclipse or be mysteriously absent, et cetera. The second orientation which we see throughout the twentieth century, which corresponds to the British Empiricism, more or less gives up on any larger sense of meaning or value and is happy to count things and expresses itself and materialism and consumerism, et cetera. Now this third orientation, which is not difficult to understand, again in the conceptual or intellectual form, it's a matter of what James called "angle of vision," of worldview, of perspective, of gestalt, involves an orientation to the depth of the present and to the in here, rather than the out there. And that, it seems to me, is the basic problem with understanding James the figure or James the college. It's a problem of world view. It's a problem from the mental perspective. It's a problem, not of rearranging concepts, but rather of stuff just ever so slightly to the side and seeing everything in a slightly different way. Now this is too complicated. [Barbara] No. [Rowe] No? [Barbara] But I'm going to stop and make sure we got it because… It's really whenever you feel comfortable starting, just talking about where William James College fits into the history of progressive education and/or the alternative education efflorescence. [Rowe] Okay, well I think in some ways, it's very important that the college was founded as it was in nineteen seventy-one to seventy-two, more or less on a cusp between two distinct movements. On the one side, the alternative or innovative education movement – roughly dating from, say, sixty-eight to seventy-one, seventy-two, on our campus – to the demise of Thomas Jefferson College, which was a fairly good example of that. And on the other hand, the career orientation, which began, I think, about seventy-four. So, we were fortunate at James to have had the experience really of some of the excesses and confusions of the innovative education movement, on the one hand, and to have done some serious thinking about vocation and career before the nation became obsessed �with careerism in higher education. Now, it had occurred to me that at one point, one way to understand William James College at its best was that we tried to integrate elements of three distinct educational movements. There's the traditional orientation, which in America came regarding critically by about sixtyeight. Then there's the innovative education movement, as I say, from sixty-eight to seventy-one, and then the career education movement. It seems to me that William James College, in some respects, can be understood as a synthesis of the best elements of each of those three movements. And for each of those movements there's a distinct coinage, or it's coin of the realm, or what passes between people. In the traditional movement, the coinage tended to be quantities of abstract knowledge and the innovative or alternative movement the coinage tended to be richness of personal experience. And in the career the coinage tended to be jobs and engagement with the world, primarily in terms of financial success and career. It occurred to me at one point, that if you take each of the three of those elements, the best of each of the three, you have a view of what we were doing at William James College. I think, fundamentally, we were trying to enable people to understand their commitments and to identify, develop, and interact with their most basic commitments. The identification, corresponding to the alternative innovative movement, where identifying what one is basically committed to requires some degree of self-awareness and some capacity to know what one's own experiences is. The development of one's commitment, with appropriate resources – academically, historically, et cetera – corresponds, it seems to me, to the best of the traditional education and the enactment of one's commitments corresponds to the best of the career orientation. So, the foundation of the college, as I say, on a cusp between the excesses of the innovative or alternative movement on one side, and the superficiality of careerism on the other, seems to me is very significant and fortunate fact about the history of our college. Now I think something else should be said about the ambitiousness of doing what we were trying to do. William James College, if nothing else, was enormously ambitious. I remember a day in the mid-seventies when I read in the "Chronicle of Higher Education," some private college in the east – Bennington, I believe, it doesn't really matter - was having to go because of financial difficulties from a student-faculty ratio eleven-to-one to fourteen-toone. At which point I practically expired of sheer exhaustion and realized the ambitiousness of what we were trying to do at a ratio of about twenty-three-point four-to-one. And in some ways, that fact, twenty-three-point-four-to-one is one of the fundamental significant facts about the college. To try to do small classes, individualized advising, internships, project-oriented education, all of that, at a ratio of twenty-three-point-four-to-one, is an enormously ambitious undertaking. And hence sustaining that for ten years is incredible. And we knew about burnout and related matters but the fact we were able to sustain that for a decade seems, to me, incredible. Now this isn't much about progressive education. [Barbara] Well, it's been a different answer. �[Rowe] Yeah. Yes, the college can be understood as a manifestation of the progressive education movement. I think I've already spoken to that in the previous… Is there another angle on that that you want? [Barbara] … comfortable. [?] [Rowe] Okay. Something needs to be said about this word "commitment." It seems to me that one of the most significant studies of higher education in the period of William James College was the famous William Perry book called "Forms of Moral and Intellectual Development of the College Years" and what he really pointed out, as a social scientist, is that higher education, when it works well, enables the student to move through nine stages of developmental process wherein they enter what he calls the commitment stage. Of the word itself, "commitments," has been in some respects a cliché of that period, so that there are understandings of the term "commitment" that are nearly clichéd. But Perry points in a simpler form of his statement that the deep curriculum of the college years involves the student moving through three stages: the absolutistic stage, where they think that there's one right answer, black and white, right and wrong. Secondly: the relativistic stage. Everything is relative in the sense of outer space. I mean everything can become anything else. Pure protein is in flux, and so forth. And if things go well, they emerge from that stage, and through that stage, into the commitment stage, where they are able to commit themselves, both in terms of beliefs about the cosmos or religion and philosophy, and in terms of particular people and projects. So that term "commitment," indicating the culmination of a crucial developmental process that Perry, and his successors, have argued was the deep curriculum of the college years. I think is the way that I want to understand that term and hence the significance… significance is a word I use too much… the necessity to identify what students are really committed to and provide them with the context and a curriculum through which to develop their commitment in terms of awareness, perspectives, what the academy can do at its best. And third: to at least have some experience with the enactment or embodiment or living of that commitment into the world as we find. [Barbara] What I just asked you about coping with the changes that happened… [Rowe] Okay, the future-oriented part of it, it seems to me, was in some ways a sham. Or a reflection of the society perceiving, I guess, the general term is rapid social change, so not a sham but a cliché. I think that at a deeper level there was significance to future-oriented and this is a quality that tends to be present in alternative education, generally. And that is the emphasis, the realization that education involves two elements. It involves a substance and a process. And another way to say what the problem with tradition, much of what traditional education is that it concentrates entirely on the substance and doesn't attend to �the process of learning. To emphasize the process of learning is to emphasize the importance of learning how to learn, quite independent of what the particular subject matter or substance is that the student is being required to master. So that many people in the present… in fact, many of the reports on higher education that we're seeing now – especially the Bell report, for example, and the American Association of Colleges report – emphasize the importance of a student learning how to learn as an essential part of the experience with higher education. So, it seems to me that at its best, what the future-oriented meant was attention to the process and to enabling the student to learn how to learn. At its worst it was a cliché… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_42_Rowe Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowe, Stephen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Stephen Rowe interview (1 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Stephen Rowe by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Stephen Rowe was a faculty member of William James College and a longtime philosophy professor at Grand Valley. In this interview, Stephen discusses how William James students adapted to the college, how the perception of the college was difficult for many to understand, and how William James College fit into the history of the alternative education movement. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Stephen Rowe. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2c998017ef75ab39833000f1ecc58b9e.mp4 cc8ff28dfbd512ff8231ad2055d8347a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3facaaaf8044d6072fba7dcfccd1346.pdf 17cea6ad179836c64aca9c38ff4f5093 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Stephen Rowe Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 2 [Barbara] Alright. I guess the one thing we should really start talking about is if you could – Oh, I would say, tell me one or two of the main thrusts of James's philosophy that were manifested in the college. [Rowe] Okay. I think in terms of the college, the most important thing about James, as tends to be the case with the other great figures in the twentieth century, is that he wound up taking on the central cultural problem, which for some people is a problem of ideal and actual. For other people, it's the problem – beginning with Descartes – of the separation of mind and body. For others, it's fact and value. And for James, it tended to be the problem of theory and practice. In other words, there's fairly widespread agreement among the great figures in the twentieth century that our culture is dichotomous or it had become unstuck in such a way that you get two elements that are not related. An extreme expression of that, of course, in our time is Heller's "Catch Twenty-Two.” Here's two choices, neither works, pick one. Gregory Bateson's “Double Bind” – same idea. But for James, the problem tended to be – or the manifestation of that deep problem tended to be – in terms of theory and practice. Such that, he observed, that without intervention, the situation would develop where your thinkers would drift to one end of the room and create grand theories that were related to nothing real. And your actors would drift to the other side and mindlessly act out whatever procedure or undertaking was going. So that, again, all things being equal, and there being no intervention, there tends to be this split between theory and practice, or ideal and actual. And with William James College, we tried to take that problem on. And hence the integration of theory and practice, stressing the importance of internships, and the consequences of what one is learning on one side, and the implications on the more technical side – or career-related side – at the same time. Now there's more to be said about James, but it seems to me that in an era of alternative education, many of the examples and instances of alternative education – perhaps even on our campus – failed because they lacked coherence or they failed to achieve sufficient intellectual discipline. And they simply became schools of doing your own thing, which is what happens over and over again with progressive education… a history for progressive education. And we were most fortunate with William James College then that we had really the discipline of a great thinker with whom we could be in dialogue. So, it seems to me that with William James College we have at least three things. It's an instance of alternative education, which in some ways is the same tradition as �progressive education, which as I say fails over and over again because it lacks discipline and coherence, and it devolves into a situation where people are merely doing their own thing. Secondly, the college was a manifestation of the human potential movement and, unfortunately, that movement in many respects suffered the same fate as has progressive education, which is to say that it failed to find sufficient articulation and hence in the worst forms became helter-skelter or nearly do your own thing. And to me, the history of the modern period, generally, I mean the whole of the modern period displays that problem, that there's some great idea about the dignity of the individual and a certain kind of relationship in which the individual can mature. But – and here I place most of the blame on intellectuals – we have had an enormous difficulty finding the articulation that can remind us and provide the appropriate forms of discipline for that intuition about being human and the relationship between being fully human and being in community. And as John Dewey, William James later colleague, points out in many respects our failure has been fundamentally intellectual in that philosophy has failed to serve its function of reminding us and pointing us to those experiences and moments in which we are being fully human. And unfortunately, so much of philosophy or thought generally became co-opted to the superficial, mechanical, laissez-faire notions of both the individual and community that they effectively were absent in terms of reminding us of the best. So, in my view, William James College – as an expression of a period, as well as an institution in itself – was an attempt to institutionalize the best of the modern period, which is to say, again, a view of the maturity and fullness of the human being that is not antithetical to community. That, in fact, depends on and leads to a certain quality of relationship that is very difficult to give voice to in the Cartesian mechanical, even hydraulic, modern vocabulary. Where the assumption tends to be that if I do something for myself, that's necessarily at someone else's expense. And if I do something for someone else that necessarily involves sacrifice. There is, it seems to me, at the root of the modern period a vision of individual and community related in something like what we these days call synergy. That, again, is very difficult to articulate in intellectualist either/or categories. And so, here with the human potential movement, and the college as an expression of that, was a surfacing of the attempt to embody that ideal. And it just happened that it was a fortunate circumstance in that the namesake provided help on that, rather than as with so many alternative projects – educational and otherwise – the intuition appeared, was healthy for a time, and then the failure of articulation began to take its toll in terms of people drifting off into who knows what. And so, it seems me the relationship and the really continuous dialogue with James the figure throughout the period was most deeply significant in terms of that issue of having discipline and a coherent view of what we were doing that tended to center around the problem of theory and practice and the integration of the two. But it really went deeper than that in terms of the capacity to affirm both the individual and the communal dimensions simultaneously and in a way where each is enhanced, rather than one being �enhanced at the expense of the other. [Barbara] I'm going to stop the tape for a second. [Rowe] Okay. Molly, get lost. Go lie down. [Barbara] No, don't tell… tell her not to do that. [Inaudible] how we managed to just attempt to engage in genuine conversation with James is just… what techniques were important, as versus just having him has a figurehead or something, you know? [Rowe] Well, I think dialogue or conversation with vision in two particular ways. One in the structure of the college itself, which hopefully on an ongoing basis with students is alive. And it seems to me that the central elements of structure were the organization of the curriculum not around the traditional disciplines, but around problems and issues in the world. And secondly, the organization of individual student work around individualized study plans and individualized advising. Such that the student – him or herself – had to take responsibility for their education. And a second kind of institutionalizing of dialogue was the synoptic lecture program, in which we tried to emphasize the significance of vision – James’ and others – and on an ongoing basis put the college in contact with figures who are genuinely visionary. And then a related element was that we saw the need to do some basic socialization with students in terms of an introductory course that went through many incarnations. I think the longest one was called “Living and Learning at William James College,” in which we studied James. But from the students’ standpoint what's even more important is what we enabled them to make the transition from a more passive orientation to education to a more active mode. And in the context of that dealt with a Jamesian vision. Hence got it into the college on an ongoing basis. [Barbara] Let me stop it again because I'd rather we talk about the questions than me just… Can you comment on the phenomenon we agree that we’ve both seen, that when students would come to the college they would have a real… there would be an adaption period before they were really functioning. And yet when they started to function within the college – function well – we always said there was a James student. "Oh, that's a real James student." It wasn't that we taught them how to behave, it’s like they recognized some process. They learned to trust it. Can you just talk about that? [Rowe] Yeah, I think perhaps best in James' own terms, James and his… [Barbara] There we go. See I wasn't talking nicely to him. Okay, now open wide, woah! [camera zooms out and refocuses on Rowe] Alright. Okay. There was similarity in backgrounds for a lot of us that came to the college and there was sort of an understanding between a lot of us, I think. Do you think that's the most important �aspect to what you refer to as activism within the history of the college? [Rowe] Yeah, I think that our faculty tended to share a history in common. Now there were all kinds of variations, but I think in the broad terms there was a common history that goes something like the following: we were committed in the sixties to social and political change within the system. At some point – sixty-eight, sixtynine, in that area – for most of us, there was a terrible realization and that is that quote "change within the system," or social and political change in and of itself does not get at the problem. For example, nineteen sixty-nine is when Pogo said: "We've met the enemy and they are us." Nineteen sixty-nine is also the time at which the Beatles sang: "You say you want a revolution; you better change your mind instead." Or, to put it another way: there's a point, historically – in our shared history – at which social and political change became impossible without cultural change. In other words, social and political change by itself is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, unless one can get to the deeper level of cultural change. And whether it was through the consciousness movement, the women's movement, the sensitivity movement, various ethnic-cultural movements, there was a shared sense, again, that the changes that need to occur need to occur at the level of transmission of cultural value. Deeper, underneath the social and political, at the level of the value transmitting institutions: religion, family, education. Hence, most of the faculty sharing that history came to education with an understanding that education – if it's to work – is not simply about enfranchising students that hadn't been enfranchised before, though that was important. The fact that we were teaching at a public state institution that was making education available to quote "the new student" – the student to whom education had not been available before. That was a significant social and political intention of the college. But at this deeper level, there tended to be this shared concern that education could develop and facilitate the emergence of the kind of value change that's necessary in order for the culture to heal. So, at that deeper level there was a concern with value in the faculty and hence in the college and value of a relatively specific sort. Now, there were times in the history of the college when there were conflicts over articulation of the value. I can remember intense conflict, for example, as between the feminists and the, say, new culture/ new consciousness types. That became most vividly present, I think, with the synoptic lecture with William Irwin Thompson. But the point is that, at some… that the agreement upon which the faculty and hence the college was founded, was an agreement deeper than the social and political level; it was an agreement about the need for change at the cultural level. And that agreement was not without its disagreements internal to it, but it seems to me significant that we have that shared history, the activist zeal, and a sort of a loose consensus about the need for cultural change. Good? [Barbara] Now can we pet the dog? �[Rowe] Oh Yeah! Hey Moll! Molly! Now the dog's asleep. Moll! Come on over here. Come over here. We're going to pet the dog. [Barbara] What's going on? It’s suspicious. I don't believe you! [Rowe] Okay, here's where the guy pets his dog. [Barbara] Sit down, the way you were dear. [Rowe] Sit, Moll. That's good, there’s a nice dog. [Barbara] I promise you I won't use it unless I have to because its corny. [Rowe] Yes, it is corny. That's a nice dog. [Barbara] Alright that's enough petting the dog. [Rowe] Good. Alright, as you were. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_43a_Rowe Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowe, Stephen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Stephen Rowe interview (2 of 2, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Stephen Rowe by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Stephen Rowe was a faculty member of William James College and a longtime philosophy professor at Grand Valley. In this interview, Stephen discusses how William James's philosophy manifested in the college and the unifying qualities of the faculty that were tied to a sense of activism within the history of the college, in addition to ending the interview with a brief interruption by his pet dog, Molly. This interview is part 2 of 2 for Stephen Rowe. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b8ca61e2277ec2f800f81b80960873b6.mp4 e0afa47767b31b737c875fe6e3efe75a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/880cdd8b49c339ad114bcc304cc3e9c0.pdf c96c1bdbe28d53cba05e28da45550a4e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Cold War/Vietnam Pete Rowe Total Time – (01:19:51) Background     He was born in Abilene, Texas in 1942 (00:17) His father was in the Pacific fighting during World War II o He flew B-24’s o His mother had family in the Texas area He grew up in many different places because his father was in the military for a long time (00:47) o When his father came back from the war, his family moved to London, England where he served as an Assistant Air Attaché (00:55) o His family spent two years in London before living in South Africa for two years o After South Africa, his family returned to Washington D.C. where they spent four years o They then moved to Salzburg, Austria for two years before living in Vienna for one year (01:11) o He eventually graduated from high school in Colorado Springs, Colorado (01:17) While he was in each location, he picked up cultural idioms and gained a different outlook on life (01:30) Training/Education/ROTC Training – (01:34)    After he finished high school he went to the University of Florida for four years where he majored in History (01:36) o He served in the Air Force ROTC (Reserved Officers’ Training Corps) at the University o The ROTC program allowed him to be commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant (01:44) He had decided to join the Air Force because he had been in many locations with his family He made the decision to become an Intelligence Officer before he had gone to college (02:20) �     o He chose the History major so that he could further his goal His father had done some intelligence work at some embassies Some of his experiences growing up helped familiarize him with the world (03:47) He graduated from the University of Florida in 1964 (03:53) In 1964, believed he could get similar jobs as his father (04:19) o He thought he assignments would be wonderful and he would get to travel Though the Vietnam conflict was escalating, the war had not “hit home yet” o He believed America was still more worried about China, the Soviets, and the Cold War (05:15) Active Duty – Philippines – (05:28)         He received his first assignment – it was a training assignment in San Angelo, Texas at Goodfellow Air Force Base (05:30) o He became a Signals Intelligence Officer  He wanted to be a Human Intelligence Officer o The signals intelligence course was nine months long  He learned cryptography, code breaking, etc. (05:56) The other trainees were standard officers (06:15) o They were from colleges across America The men he was going to be in charge of were a “step up” from the rest (06:27) o The men had to listen for hours a time, listening to communications of foreign countries, and transcribe the communications (06:41) o He had to be in charge of these men o The men had to let off a lot of steam after this kind of work o They were enlisted men (07:21) When he was in the Philippines, they had an AN/FLR-9 radio antenna (07:31) o All of the interceptions were directed to China and the Soviet Union o There were 75-100 men in a building that would listen and then report to their Non-commissioned Officers (NCO) who would then report the information to their commanders o The Americans could see where particular airplanes were flying according to the other countries (08:28) o He would have to decide if he wanted to report the information critically or not o The men worked in eight hour shifts The receiver takes in transmissions from across the world (09:52) o A lot of the information was chaos o After intercepting for a long time, NCOs knew what and when to report They relied heavily on experienced NCOs (11:13) He went to the Philippines in 1965-1967 (11:22) Over the course of the two years, the Vietnam conflict received a small percentage of their attention (11:55) �            o The Vietnamese did not have the same kind of communication equipment that would allow for interception (12:00)  They used a primitive form of communication He knows that the Americas were effective with their interceptions and decoding (12:44) Some of the intercept operators could tell who was sending the messages based on mistakes that had been previously made (13:04) At one point, one of the reports came in that the Chinese were standing down all military and commercial aircraft (14:21) o This was a red flag for him o They immediately went to a critical flash mode (14:40) o It turned out that the information was important but nothing too critical In the Philippines, the work was fairly routine (15:26) o The style of work is one of the reasons he prefers human intelligence work more than communications intelligence (15:32)  Most of the activities he became involved with were simply routine Clark Air Base, on Luzon Island, Philippines, was the largest US military base outside the continental United States (16:33) o It had all kinds of housing, an air field, and was virtually a town within itself o It was vulnerable for theft (16:56)  There were Philippine criminals that would show up and take things – One time someone stole a fire engine (17:12) o There were horse patrols and the base (17:27) o The Escape and Evasion Course was located on the base as well o One time the perimeter patrol was on duty and they came upon a five hundred foot section of a fence that was stolen (18:19) o The base was on extremely flat land o There were several off-duty clubs (19:05) o The base was extremely active during this time He was not anywhere near a major city while in the Philippines Angeles, Philippines was a city just north of the base (19:48) o Men could go there and find prostitutes, bars, the black market, etc. There was a golf course and 11-man tackle football program on the base o The morale of the men was high because of the many opportunities (20:51) By 1967, the men were happy to be where they were and not in Vietnam (21:28) The job performance of the men was excellent o The intercepting operators were extremely capable (21:45) He was forbidden to go to Hong Kong because of security clearances (22:26) o There were R&R (Rest and Relaxation) locations in the Philippines In 1967 he went from Clark Air Base to Washington D.C. (23:02) o He spent a year in a defense intelligence college at Anacostia Naval Air Station (23:07)  He learned the art of intelligence  The training prepared him to go to other assignments (23:38) � He then spent six months at the Clandestine Officer School (23:43) o He trained in trade craft of clandestine operations o The training prepared him for his next position Active Duty – Vietnam – (24:10)             In January of 1969 he was sent to Vietnam to serve as an Intelligence Interrogation Team Chief (24:15) o His unit was in Nha Trang, Vietnam (24:26) o There were units in each of the corps The teams function was to go to locations in each corps and interrogate captured prisoners o They were more like interviews because interrogation is difficult with the language barrier (25:04) o They were limited on what they could do to the prisoners in order to make them speak His team focused on gaining strategic intelligence (25:26) The time sensitivity of information that was needed was extremely critical Before he left for Vietnam, he received no kind of preparation (26:34) o They were given some hints about interrogation, but there was not specific training He had a team of five men (27:15) o They would be sent to the different areas of their core for interrogations Many of the interrogations took place in field hospitals (27:46) o They would be put in a separate ward where only military volunteers would service o All Vietnamese personnel and staff would be kept away from the interrogated individual (28:50) He flew to Vietnam on a commercial military flight o He boarded a plane on December 31, 1969 and landed in Saigon on January 2, 1970 (29:08) o He did not receive a special seat in the plane After they landed, he was funneled through various transitional stations until he was sent to meet up with his unit o He was taken in a “beat up, old Toyota car” (29:48) Because he was not receiving technical intelligence, he did not have to wear a uniform – he was able to wear civilian clothing (29:59) o The fact that they did not wear uniforms created some degree of enmity o He is not sure why they needed to always wear civilian clothing (30:42) When he landed in Vietnam, he was briefed by his authorities (31:39) o He was briefed on general operations He had Vietnamese interpreters for those that could not speak Vietnamese (32:16) o Some were extremely competent and others were not o There were Americans on his unit that spoke Vietnamese (32:33) �            They were most effective at getting information He was able to get to know his interpreter fairly well (33:21) o His interpreter decided that interpreting was not suited for him o The opportunities to become close with the interpreters were limited o Some interpreters were reassigned by the Vietnamese military (33:41) o Most of the contact was functional and operational (33:51) When he was in Nha Trang, he lived on a base o They had two villas  One was for sleeping quarters and the other was for radios, report writing, etc. (34:25) When he was transferred from his team to headquarters in Saigon, he lived off base In Nha Trang, the skill of the Air America pilots was very good (35:11) o He also remembers the compassion shown by those in the medical facilities with the enemy POW’s (36:58)  They were very dedicated to the medical profession  He believes that many of the prisoners were surprised at the treatment they received (37:28)  The entire time he was there, he talked to no one that had more than an eighth grade education (38:01)  They had all been recruited  Many of the POW’s would tell him anything he wanted to know  Most of the men did not provide them with much information (38:52) Many of the Vietnamese soldiers that were interrogated were sick, wounded, and were not motivated in the national defense of their country (39:44) When he went to headquarters in Saigon, he was made the Traffic Exploitation Officer (40:48) o He was in charge of all the reporting from all of the field teams  He would edit and clarify reports  It was not very exciting (41:08) o There was a sense that he made something worth while for those in higher locations – he took pride in making professional reports The working environment was extremely temporary (41:46) o There was nothing permanent He does not remember an NCO that did not deserve to be there (42:03) o There was no grumbling or complaining There was no fear of snipers (43:52) o There were weekly mortar attacks in Nha Trang City  The attacks were relatively brief (44:31) o It was creepy when they found out where the shots were coming from  They realized that being there was not just a “free pass” (45:00) He stayed in Vietnam for one year (45:08) o He left in December of 1969 Over the course of the year, he became glad that he was not an Army guy (45:23) o They were always in the wild �       Any time he had to go to locations that were not hospital bases, he felt badly for the military men (45:46) o They had little support When he was in the environment, he did not worry about the big picture o He has a job to do, and the point is to do the job well (46:38)  If you learn things, then great – as long as you do what you are supposed to do, everything is fine o He was hoping that things were going well and that he was contributing (47:06) There were times when he was eating dinner and relaxing in Saigon and could see the bombing in the distance o He was wondering what they were doing in Vietnam (47:40) He sometimes wondered if the war would ever turn around (47:58) The American soldiers were happy when the drawback began While he was in Vietnam, he only knew of the anti-war protests through the newspapers (48:52) o No one ever wrote him a bad letter and no one spat on him when he returned When he returned, he landed at Travis Air Force Base in Fairfield, California (49:23) o He then flew commercially to his home in Washington D.C. DCD/CIA – ROTC Instructor – (49:35)     He was then sent into the DCD (Domestic Contact Division) program (49:52) o It was a group of CIA agents and interviewers that were placed in major US cities to gain information from businessmen, educators, newspapermen, religious leaders, etc. o The unit he was in assigned him to the CIA field office in Seattle, Washington (50:33)  He was assigned in Washington because the Boeing headquarters were there and it complemented his Air Force background very well He was in Seattle, Washington for four years (50:56) There was only in-house training o He would go and talk to various officials in the agency that did role playing activities When he would go to a company, he would establish contact with the CEO and tell them that they need information about the Soviet Union (51:30) o They wanted to talk to the employees that would travel abroad to the Soviet Union and China o Once they received approval, they would set up appointments and interview the men (52:07) �       o Based on the interview, the information would be sent to CIA offices where they would generate more requirements that they wanted  They would have another appointment with the individual (54:23)  They would always carry a tape recorder with them He worked at various companies, not just Boeing He was responsible for the feeding and care of defectors (53:11) o It was similar to the Witness Protection Program (53:18) When he was dealing with the various employees, the majority of the men were cooperative (53:45) o There were some that did not want to reveal anything o Nearly 99% of the men wanted to cooperate (54:03) At one point, he became well acquainted with a veterinarian who was a hyperbaric chamber specialist (54:08) o He had a hyperbaric chamber in his offices o Through his contacts, he became acquainted with the deputy of oceanology in the Soviet Union (54:41)  They corresponded back and forth  This became interesting by the agency  Because of space travel, scientists were concerned about the role of gravity on the body (55:01) o He encouraged his contact to bring the Soviet to the United States  He came over, stayed with the veterinarian  The information they received was quite helpful (55:49) After four years, he was sent to be an Air Force ROTC Instructor and became an Assistant Professor of Aerospace Studies at California State University, Fresno (56:15) o He worked there for four years Before he went to be an Assistant Professor, he was assigned to interview and be a debriefing officer for many of the POW’s (56:42) It was called “Operation Homecoming” o Many of the men were prisoners for six years (57:04)  When they returned, they were behind six years  News information, magazines, and mass amounts of information were given to them to fill them in (57:16) o The interviews allowed the POW’s verbally process their experiences (57:50) o Each interviewer was assigned one POW  He had to talk and interview him  He was a bachelor (58:14)  When he got back, he became “very active” o The interviews took place at the March Air Reserve Base in Riverside County, California (58:35)  The POW that he interviewed was a young pilot, tried to get out of everything he could get out of, and managed to successfully evade the Escape and Evasion course that he was required to take �          When he went to Vietnam and was captured, he spent six years in captivity without the background that he should have had (59:42) o When the men were brought back, psychological help was given if they asked for it (01:00:00) o What was found out was that the pilots were far beyond what they were assumed to be  They were well educated, mature, organized, and had everything together in dealing with the enemy (01:00:20)  They formed a POW wing with assigned positions, chaplain, historical member, etc. while they were prisoners  Some of the men even took courses (01:00:55) o North Vietnam would capture pilots, treat them well, and then release them early in order to give the impression that everyone else would be treated well (01:01:20) Because the North Vietnamese did not release the names of POW’s, there was one man that remembered 300 of the POW names and reported them as soon as he came home (01:02:18) o It was extremely encouraging to many American families at home He then went to the ROTC program at California State University, Fresno He was fearful because he knew he would be facing protests (01:03:28) o However, they never faced any protests o Perhaps the war was over and out of their minds (01:03:43) They would sometimes go to campuses and recruit, but it was not the focus of the program (01:04:23) o The program was two years long The program had near one hundred people every year (01:05:23) o He worked with roughly seven others They would go to a summer encampment somewhere in the United States for six weeks for training (01:05:57) The recruits were at nearly the same level as those that he had previously worked with o There were some mature acting kids (01:06:55) The students he worked with were relatively the same as those he served with (01:07:16) There is a difference between the different branches of military in the types of jobs that are done o Yet, the level of students in his office was very strong (01:08:40) NSA – (01:08:44)  Once he finished his teaching in 1978, he was assigned at the headquarters of the NSA (National Security Agency) (01:08:50) o He served for a brief time at the Air Force Liaison Office (01:09:02) o He was then able to acquire an executive staff position as the Briefing Officer to the Director of the NSA (01:09:16) �        He briefed ambassadors, senators, generals, etc. about the NSA’s missions (01:09:20)  He was in this position for nearly three years One of the problems of briefing anyone at the NSA was that the security levels were often so high and tight that there were many things that he could not tell them (01:10:34) o Some people would become visibly upset o A Top Secret level of clearance at the NSA is nothing  “Even janitors have Top Secret clearance (01:11:00) He then went to Fort Belvoir, Virginia to serve in the Humint (human intelligence) unit (01:11:50) o He was Chief of Plans Resources and Personnel for the Air Force for four years He had a desk job that was in charge of hiring, budget, transportation, and units all across the world – he dealt with the support aspects (01:12:11) o He had to go to various units in the Pacific and Europe o He stayed very active (01:12:54) The changes in the political sphere did not greatly effect anything within the military o The military has a culture (01:14:03) o Everyone has a job to do o Complaints happen privately (01:14:27) It is easy to not think about the deeper thought processes, philosophy, or policies because you cannot do much to change them (01:14:39) There was no things, actions, or words that were said with those he worked with that judged whether policies were right or wrong When he was with the ROTC program after Vietnam, there were those that had priority over others o It became difficult to become a pilot (01:16:17) o The military becomes very picky with who they take in (01:16:37) After the Service – (01:17:00)      His experiences in the military helped him become more compassionate with those in certain situations, allowed him to “see the other side”, and be more understanding of others situations (01:17:12) By going and working with people in different cultures, he came to learn and accept differences more than a normal person (01:17:47) He retired in 1984 at the age of 42 After the service, he taught track and field at a high school in northern Michigan before going to Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids, Michigan where he coached track and field (01:18:27) Because the coaching position did not pay much, he received his second and third Master’s Degree from Grand Valley State University �o He received one in Public Administration and one in Educational Leadership o He took his education as a basis and got into the K-12 education world in the administrative level (01:18:54)  He served at Grandville High School o He attained a Principle Assistantship at Forest Hills Northern High School in Grand Rapids, Michigan o He retired in 2010 (01:19:36) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoweP1440V Title A name given to the resource Rowe, Stephen "Pete" (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowe, Stephen "Pete" Description An account of the resource Pete Rowe, born in Abilene Texas in 1942, served in the U.S. Air Force from 1964-1986 as an intelligence officer. Pete began his service in the ROTC program. After being commissioned, Pete was sent to the Philippines where he served over an intelligence team that intercepted signals from South and Southwest China. In 1968, Pete was sent to Vietnam where he worked interrogating captured North Vietnamese's soldiers during the Vietnam War. After leaving the country in 1969, Pete began working in the Domestic Contact Position (DCP) where he interviewed individuals who commonly interacted with and traveled outside of the country in order to gain intelligence. In 1974, he began working as an assistant professor of aerospace engineering at California State University Fresno in the ROTC program. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource James, Smither (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-09-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ade9e132fa36898888710358135d8629.mp4 fd90bd5780920385eb90fde8c63b63c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2eaba9a6760e2b094cf59d2ed0f5522.pdf a9172b9d8f95408ed38b1c237b1b205d PDF Text Text Rowland, Daniel Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Iraq War Interviewee’s Name: Daniel Rowland Length of Interview: (1:09:57) Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “I’m here with Daniel Rowland from Comstock Park and the interviewer is Koty Leroy Rollins of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Alright Daniel let’s just jump into this, when were you born and where at?” Well I was born in Grand Rapids in 1975, July time frame, at least that’s what my parents told me, they could be wrong I don’t know. Interviewer: “You never know. So what was your early life like? What–” (00:57) Ah pretty mundane, I mean pretty common, went to school, grew up, had an older brother who liked to, you know be an older brother we’ll just leave it at that. Nothing too exciting. Interviewer: “Alright, when did you enlist and what led you to that choice?” My brother had enlisted in the Marine Corps and I’m like “Oh that’s cool.” Then I– The sad fact was I actually applied for an ROTC scholarship and got a full ride to North Carolina State University and my lack of discipline led me to drop out and enlist. Interviewer: “Okay, so you enlisted after spending how much time in college?” Three semesters, cause apparently if you go to college on the government’s dime and don’t finish, you owe them money, or you enlist. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Sounds about right, did your brother like, tell you all these cool stories, did he prep you for boot camp or anything?” Nah, he only went in about a year and a half before me, I mean he told me things but in retrospect I think he was just messing with me. Interviewer: “What type of things did he tell you then?” Oh it’s not that hard, it’s fun and you know typical big brother taunting the little brother things as you follow his footsteps. That makes it not as enjoyable as one would think. Interviewer: “Okay, so what was boot camp like then were you prepared for it at all?” In general yeah I mean it’s not– Physically it wasn’t that hard but you know coming from three semesters in ROTC I kind of already knew the drill of stuff. (2:30) So this is gonna sound self aggrandizing to a certain extent but like I think it was about two weeks in they made me the guide for the platoon and I ended up doing that because I already knew a lot of the stuff like ranks and all that because like I said the three semester in ROTC kind of gave me a head start on everything that they teach you, common Marine Corps history, Navy ranks, Marine Corps ranks, how to march, of course that might of been nine years of marching band too but either way– I was a geek. Interviewer: “So you were pretty prepared.” For the general knowledge and physical aptitude but I’m sure as you know being a former Navy is– No matter how much you know being prepared is not as easy as it sounds especially when you’re the guide, somebody messes up you get punished. Interviewer: “And stepping back just a little bit one thing I forgot to ask, did you have any family history of military or were you and your brother like the first.” �Rowland, Daniel I had an uncle serve in Vietnam but he died there and I never knew him so I couldn’t say, and then my other uncle was in the Air Force for two years but he went to Germany, came home and he had some pretty weird stories but we won’t go there, Germans are weird apparently. Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was just you and your brother then for the most part?” Yeah from the immediate family, nobody– Yeah, nobody else I knew served, I know my dad tried but got 4Fed cause bad feet or something and then I know my grandpa tried and “We need you home!” World War II but nobody– Nobody seemed to be able to get in until me and my brother. Interviewer: “Fair enough, now when you say 4F you mean like medically.” Right, yeah between his eyes and his feet I guess they didn’t want him. Back then– They weren’t as accepting back then of medical– Of any little medical condition where nowadays anybody– Cause they can fix most things, here have some new shoes. (4:22) Interviewer: “So going back to the boot camp thing you said you were the guide, was that like the leader of the cadets or what was that?” Yeah, I don’t know what did they call it. Yeah it’s you’re the head recruit, I guess you could say “in charge” but you really weren’t, you were pretty much the top– You’re pretty much who the drill instructors told to get stuff done and who to delegate. Interviewer: “And you were the one that got in trouble when someone else messed up.” Oh yeah, there were mornings I would be up before the rest of the platoon getting thrashed because someone messed up during the night or something, I don’t know, I don’t remember. Interviewer: “When you say getting thrashed do you mean like PT or like–” �Rowland, Daniel Yeah, no they don’t– They were not allowed physical contact but they could make you run in place, do push ups, there were four exercises, funnel kicks, push ups, run in place, don’t remember the fourth one off the top of my head but basically you did it until your arms were jelly and you couldn’t do anything else. Interviewer: “And this was in ‘95?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay.” I’m sure they still kind of do– I mean it was the Marine Corps, you gotta be hard ass I guess would be the term nowadays. Interviewer: “So pretty much everything else other than that you were good at, you knew.” (5:35) I wouldn’t say “good at” but I knew enough to not have to, you know worry about it, how's that sound. Interviewer: “Did you have any issues with the other recruits, I know sometimes they don’t take–” Well being the guide yeah sometimes like you’d have the one they just couldn’t get anything right or was moving too slow and you either had to help them out or get trashed more, I was in pretty good shape when I got out of boot camp. Interviewer: “Alright so when– Once you graduated boot camp what did you move onto?” �Rowland, Daniel Marine combat training which is three weeks of just basic cause every Marine is a rifleman so we had to basically go somewhere and spend three weeks in the field and living in tents and walking through woods, nothing amazing. Interviewer: “Nothing fun happened there?” Well one time it rained so hard that we had to come back from out of the field, when we went back the next day finding all our gear in the mud was fun. Yeah it was out in California, oh joy oh joy.” Interviewer: “So it was out in California.” Yeah it was the one with flashlights, I think it was I don’t know. Interviewer: “So you– Where did you go to boot camp at?” (6:42) San Diego, I was a Hollywood Marine as they call it. Interviewer: “So you went all the way from Michigan to San Diego for boot camp?” Yep and I came home for ten days, went back out to Camp Pendleton for the combat training. Interviewer: “Alright, and where’d you go after that?” Went to North Carolina for my job training, which I was initially an administrative clerk, yay. I know right I got to learn how to type. Interviewer: “That’s fun.” And file things. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So nothing exciting happened there?” Well it was kind of fun, my brother was stationed at Camp Lejeune and when everybody else had to stay on the base when we got there I got to leave for the weekend and it really pissed people off because, you know reasons and then well I ended up meeting– I ended up getting married at a job training, I met a female Marine that was going to school as well, let’s just say that didn’t end well but I’ll just leave that at that. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” What if we’re gonna talk about it might as well just throw it all out there right? Interviewer: “Hey, it’s your story.” Then I drove cross country and went to Hawaii for three and a half years. (7:50) Interviewer: “Why did you have to drive cross country?” Well I bought– See that was one thing my brother was good for he was a tia– Traffic management office or whatever, he’s the guy that ships stuff around and when we graduated job training they’re like “You can only take like two sea bags with you.” And then I asked my brother and he’s like “Nah man you can ship whatever you want, car or whatever.” So I bought a car, drove across the country, had it shipped out of San Francisco and went to Hawaii cause I’m like– Cause you know how they are they want to tell all the new guys “Oh no you can’t do this or that.” I mean if I was gonna be there for three and a half years I’m gonna have some stuff. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” For some reason cars in Hawaii are way overpriced. Interviewer: “I can confirm that.” �Rowland, Daniel I assume it’s shipping costs. Interviewer: “That and just everything is expensive in Hawaii that’s just how it goes.” Oh yeah, it was expensive 20 years ago when I was there I can only imagine today. Interviewer: “So, where’d you get stationed at in Hawaii?” Camp Smith, it’s a little ho dunk base right above Pearl Harbor in a residential area, nice view though I’ll give them that. When you look down you can see Pearl Harbor Hickam Air Force Base which is right in the middle of Pearl Harbor, it’s pretty nice. There was like– It only had four barracks on the base and like ten houses, it was commander in chief’s Pacific headquarters and Marine force Pacific headquarters, it might have been 4 or 500 people stationed there. It was interesting and small, I don’t know it wasn’t too bad. (9:20) Interviewer: “And you did what there?” I was an administrative clerk, I worked in the force adjutant when I first got there doing– But before everything was electronic we got to actually file all the orders and stuff. So ooh that was fun, and then I worked down in the classified vault for a couple of years, then ended up in the security manager’s office doing background checks and all that fun stuff, cause you know somebody’s gotta do it. So a nice wide array of things, went to Korea a couple times for exercises, got to go to Seoul and Joseon and, you know, see other countries and have some fun. Interviewer: “And what time frame did you go to Korea?” ‘96, ‘97, they were only for like a month or two each time, it wasn’t– Just some little exercises to annoy the North Koreans I guess. Interviewer: “Were you on like ships there or were you–” �Rowland, Daniel No we’d fly over and then work in some office, in some base, I don’t remember. The one time we were in the Korean Marine Corps Base living in GP tents on their dirt soccer field in the middle of summer and it gets hot over there and to boot the plumbing doesn't take toilet paper well, yeah you’ve never been to Korea have you? Interviewer: “I’ve been but–” And when you wipe you throw it in the trash can next to the toilet and then they would take it out and burn it. Well we were right downwind from the burn pit, so needless to say that one of my times in Korea was not the most fun. Interviewer: “So were you feeling some animosity from the South Koreans or was this just all by…” No, that's just the way they did it, I mean they had space– Because their little headquarters was like on a hill so any flat land you could get was amazing, so we just happened to be right downwind from the burn pit. (11:07) Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” Oh yeah cause we had to walk through the bulk of it on our way to chow so by the time you got there– It was a great dieting technique I guess, you didn’t have to feel the urge to eat. Interviewer: “So were you working like hand in hand with the South Koreans?” They were just joint exercises, I mean we were the command element so we didn’t actually go out and do stuff we were just doing like the fake information would come in and then we would process it and then disseminate down to lower command of guys actually doing stuff, so nothing amazing. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “And were you like sitting with generals and doing all this or were you just like sitting in a little tent typing on a thing.” Well I was representing the security manager so I basically was the guy running around shredding classified material, nothing too pressing. Yeah my job was not– It sounds all nice but it’s not as glamorous as one might think. Interviewer: “Were you like– Did you not enjoy this job? I’m assuming you didn’t sign up with the Marines to be a clerk.” When I signed up they gave me one of those job option packages that was air field service support, so like air traffic control or something, it was legal clerk or administrative clerk. So I’m like– I was fine with two of them but not the third and I’m sure you can guess which one I got because I’m like “Woah, hey legal clerk and air traffic controller that sounds kind of fun.” And based on my scores I’m like– Admin is like, out of three, the dumbest people go to admin and I don’t know why but whatever, I’m not gonna complain, needs of the Marine Corps. (12:43) Interviewer: “Fair enough.” So I got stuck there. Interviewer: “So your time in Hawaii was pretty uneventful?” Yeah for the most part, I went to school, I was there because, you know– Of course when I dropped out of college the first time you know my dad’s like “Oh you’re never gonna finish now!” So I had to prove him wrong cause I’m just that stubborn. Interviewer: “What did you get your degree in?” Associate’s in business and a bachelor’s in social work and then spent my last year, got divorced while I was there too, let’s just say as a single guy with a year left on the island I had some fun �Rowland, Daniel but we won’t go into that because this is a family program apparently and then I got out in– Went on a terminal leave in ‘98 and came home and got out, went to the IRR, individual ready reserve and hung out for a while. Interviewer: “Okay, and–” I’m just gonna roll into the next part I assume. Interviewer: “Yeah.” So employment was like I was trying to– I guess I think of that time that’s when they actually changed– In Michigan it was weird, you only needed a bachelor’s of social work to work in the field and then they changed it master’s degree and all that stuff so I’m like– Needless to say trying to get a job in the field I wanted wasn’t that great so during that time as a reserve Marine I could volunteer to do active duty every now and then. (14:05) I went a couple places just for like oh we need somebody here for a month or a month there so I dabbled around and then in 2001 there was an opportunity to go down to North Carolina for six months and I’m like “Okay, I’ll go down there.” So I signed up and they flew me down and needless to say you know in September stuff happened and at that time then we went over to– Well I didn’t go but the military went to Afghanistan and since I was there it was– I volunteered for six months and then since I was there when 9/11 happened they started calling up all the reserves like “Well while you’re here, here’s some orders to stay another year.” And then I was officially involuntarily recalled and for the next– Till 2004, every year I would get additional orders to stay another year, so I was basically involuntarily activated for two years. Interviewer: “And how did you feel about that, were you upset?” I was fine, it’s not like I had a job back home I’m like “Well hey” and yeah when I got there I was working at– I was originally working for the Marine reserve unit out of Lejeune and then I got moved up to the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Command Element cause a guy I worked with in Hawaii he’s a colonel now and he’s like “Oh you’re here.” I’m like “Oh, how are you �Rowland, Daniel doing?” Cause as you know the military’s actually kind of small, especially the Marine Corps, so having worked in the security manager’s office in Hawaii he stuck me in the security manager’s office in Lejeune so– Because they were just starting the office so I’m like “Okay” and by that time I was a corporal and I basically got to set that up. So that was fun, learning– Basically doing my old job again which was kind of weird because as an administrative clerk you can work in pretty much any– You can work with any unit, every unit rated an administrative clerk, you know they say you do 30 years you don’t do the same job twice so but apparently I got stuck in the same job again, but you know it pays off in the end. Interviewer: “So when you were recalled– Or not recalled but when you went down to North Carolina for the six months was the to do administrative work or were you doing something else?” Well yeah I was– They were– They were just, from my understanding I don’t know for sure, they were– What was it called it was like the Marine augmentation command element, basically it’s where a bunch of reserve guys, like older higher ranking guys that are retired and were still reserve. (16:37) It’s like if the command element ever went to war these guys would get called up to fill in key positions back in the rear. So they were just setting up and they just needed people to come down and help them set up their infrastructure and stuff so I’m like “Oh, okay.” Six months, I’d be doing admin stuff no big deal, I needed a job, they needed Marines, I’ll just go and then like I said 9/11 happened and stuff just got real and you know I was cheap to call up because I was already there. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” And so, then what happened? I don’t know, that was 2001, 2002, then I was dumb and got married again in 2003. Yeah I got married in February of 2003, they’d just gone over to invade Iraq in December and my office sent a Marine who apparently doesn’t know how to jump, got injured getting off a helicopter and they’re like “Oh hey, you’re going over to replace him in deployment.” I’m like “Okay.” So after being married three weeks I got whisked away to Iraq for 2003 and I worked with the– Well I guess it’d be more commonly called Task Force Tarawa the �Rowland, Daniel 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade and when I got to them in March it was the Battle of Nasiriyah and I was tasked as the assistant security manager of the– Basically the tent where the general and all his command stuff were and to got over sea this little security element we had and all this other fun stuff– Oh yeah I was a sergeant by then too, and I would stay there for the next seven years, we’ll get into that later. Interviewer: “When you say stay there you mean stay a sergeant, not stay.” Right, yeah. Yeah not in Iraq, though I was there enough I should’ve bought a summer home. So yeah just to gloss my own ego more I was a meritorious sergeant yeah. Interviewer: “Oh okay.” That’s for the record, because I was such an outstanding jarhead. Interviewer: “Not astounding enough to be an E6 but–” (18:37) Oh no but they give E5 and unders away as like candy, like “Oh here, get promoted.” So I was over there and got in some– Because we were responsible for the bulk of the forces, the Army, and the 1st Marine Division, went up through Saudi and went north– West and then swung around to Baghdad, we were supposedly tasked with mop up operations, heading in right south of Baghdad and then swinging east. So we had all these little small towns and crap but Nasiriyah was the worst fighting of the invasion. I was not actually in the fight but we were right behind them, you know command element we basically tell everyone what to do and you could see all the crap coming back and all the casualties,this, that. I mean it’s not– Nowhere near like a World War II or Vietnam scenario I think our casualties were only like 100 or less if you do MIAK– Or wounded and killed so the WAK, I don’t know we gotta work on our acronyms, there’s so many of them I don’t know. Interviewer: “So you never saw any of the actual fighting, no one ever attacked the command element?” �Rowland, Daniel Well you could hear and when you went outside you could see cause a lot of it was at night you could see the, like the artillery, the LAV, the tanks. So the fire fights and stuff because we were just on the other side of– There’s a river that runs by the bridges and we were on the back end of it and we could kind of see down you could like see it all going on. So not the same as being obviously in it so I can’t make any grandiose claims like that but anyway after that then we moved on. We ended up in some old Iraqi air base by Al Kut, hung out there for a couple months after the invasion ended, sweat a lot because the desert’s hot in the summer. Interviewer: “I had no idea.” Really? You learn something new everyday. Interviewer: “Exactly.” And then came home. (20:33) Interviewer: “So during the actual fighting I’m assuming you weren’t working on security clearances and that sort of thing.” No I mean most of it there, most of my job at the end of the day was just making sure the area was secure, people that came and went had clearances, we didn’t actually process– clearances were for the rear, you showed up you either had it or you didn’t so it’s nothing amazing. Though I did get to see how things happened at a command level, you know it was like the fly on the wall I just like walk in the tent and see everybody doing their jobs like the three shop who is operations and then all the other guys are like “Oh we need this, we need that, tell them to do this.” You know like you see war movies and you just see the soldiers are out fighting but you know actually seeing the puppet masters I guess you’d call them, cause you know if you’re the down on the front line fighting, you know you just go where you’re told, but seeing how they make those decisions at the higher level I guess was pretty good for an experience level. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Did you ever have any issues with officers?” Who doesn’t? No, no not at that time really it was actually– Again the Marine Corps would end up being small again later on in my career but no at the time no. Well everybody’s so focused on the job at hand which is, you know war which is kind of why we exist then, you know personal animosities between each other. Though there was one captain, he was the general’s aide to camp and he was kind of a douchebag. Interviewer: “What did he do?” No he was just a dick. Interviewer: “Oh, fair enough.” Well because you know here’s the general making all the decisions and this is basically his lackey, carry my briefcase and crap. (22:05) So he had nothing else to do but harass us, there was me, the general’s terp and his driver and we assumed he was crap for no reason. He’s like “Oh, you know you need a haircut.” And I’m like– Right, right. Interviewer: “We are at war.” There are some people, no matter what you’re doing, that want to stick to military protocol like it’s gonna be the end of the world if you don’t. Interviewer: “Got it.” I mean we’re talking about a guy– So like we’re in a town trying to take it over and stuff and he would find some Iraqi out in town to like, press his camis and pay them like a couple bucks. Interviewer: “Wow.” �Rowland, Daniel Yeah, this– Don’t get me started on it there’s just some people that are like, what? I mean we were in MOP gear for like over a month, the– I forgot the actual acronym, the biological weapon cause we were still “Oh he’s got a WMD.” You know so we had on this mop gear for over 30 days, no– I mean we were invading, no showers no– You know baby wipes became our friends. So we were pretty nasty so like I didn’t get a haircut, really? But anyway that’s– He annoyed me but that was about it. Interviewer: “So when you were over in Iraq, other than the administrative work, you know what did you do after the invasion?” We sat around for– Cause the invasion was late March, early April and we were there till like the beginning of July, end of June and we just sat there, that was it. I mean you’re not– I mean because they’re still having to figure out what they’re gonna do with the country and we’re just like– We’re hanging out and doing nothing, played lots of spades. (23:48) Interviewer: “After that what happened, when did you leave?” We got back on the ships– See they went over in December on the ships and then I, like I said, I flew over mid deployment and then we had to take the ships back so that was fun, but I got on the boat and took the longest shower of my life, maybe, but it was nice and then we got to float home. Yeah, stopped in Lisbon on the way, that was fun. Interviewer: “What ship were you on?” The– Was it the Nassau? Yeah I think it was the Nassau, we had the Nassau, the Kearsarge, and I forget the third ship in our little fleet but it was a hootenanny. Got to go through the Suez canal and man the guns, hey we’re jarheads what else we got to do right? Interviewer: “I’m assuming nothing tried to attack you.” �Rowland, Daniel No, that’s standard protocol when you’re going through the canals and the stuff is to man the guns on the side. So whatever but got to go past the rocket gibraltar, that was fun looking, I guess that you– There’s– I mean you know you’re Navy, all the little weird things like the shell back or if you cross the equator and this, we got one for going through the city waters and ooh. Interviewer: “So the military traditions where they kind of haze you and you get a little reward afterwards.” Not for that one, you just got it for going through the Suez and the Med, yeah I’ve heard of some of the things they do and sea bats and all that, we’ll leave that for you to explain for the people to hear. Interviewer: “Shell backs a whole different beast.” No you never heard of the– “Hey we got a sea bat under that container.” And then you go– Never mind. (25:24) Interviewer: “Yeah the old, the hazing techniques to make you go just waste your time.” [overlapping chatter] Hundred yards of flight line I got. Interviewer: “Go wait for the mail buey, that sort of thing.” Hey, get me some blinker fluid. No? Okay, keys in the humvee. Interviewer: “So the Navy was kind of messing with you guys a little bit.” Well– But that was it though and man I tell you what the Navy cooks are actually pretty good, I don’t know. Well compared to eating MREs for three months I guess anything was good. Interviewer: “So after–” �Rowland, Daniel And so I get back and, you know that’s it for– So by then I’m married, got a kid on the way, and I’m still on involuntary order so I’m like “Well, I should probably go.” Cause by this time I had almost seven years and I’m like “Oh maybe I should go back to active duty.” and that took a year cause recruiters suck. Interviewer: “So where were you at for this year? Were you just–” I was– No I was still recalled reservist back at my old job at Camp Lejeune and that’s when I got my Navy achievement medal and all the other crap for a job I didn’t even know what I did and they give them out like candy so like “Oh hey everybody gets one” unless you’re infantry, then you don’t get anything. So then I try to come back in, takes them a year, I tried going officer too, that didn’t pan out I don’t know. So apparently– Well whatever, so then I go back then they let me back in in June of 2004 and I tried going back in as an intelligence analyst because I’m like I’ve already got the clearance. (26:57) I mean I kinda needed high clearance for my old job and then I figured– They made me retake the ASVAB and scored perfect and I’m like “Oh okay, I can get in, this is no problem.” They’re like “Oh, we want you back in but only as infantry.” I’m like “What?” “It’s the only thing we have open.” So of course I took it cause I got a kid on the way, I’m marrying, and I gotta provide for my family and then I come to find out later there was still like openings for the intelligence. Apparently recruiters even treat Marines like 17 year olds and just meet their quotas, I don’t know but I’m still a little bitter about that. Interviewer: “That’s understandable. So when–” I had two college degrees and a 99 on the ASVAB and a top secret clearance, I was like “Why couldn’t I get the job?” Anyway. Interviewer: “That is a bit on the ridiculous side.” So I guess I went in as one of the smaller grunts, that was– Yeah June of 2004, I got to my unit in August of 2004 2nd Battalion, 6th Marines, 2nd Marine division blah blah and then they stuck �Rowland, Daniel me in weapons company. I was going to become an anti armor assault man, 0352 basically we shoot rockets at tank and at that time they told me “Oh they just got rid of on the job training.” Which means you could like work work with a unit for six months and get your new job designation. “So you have to go back to training.” So I’m a sergeant with seven years in and they sent me to basically back to combat training with a fricken 18 and 18 year old privates. Interviewer: “That sounds fun.” Oh it was hootenanny, it wasn’t really that bad there were two corporals over there too and the instructors pretty much let us like not do all the dumb crap. Interviewer: “They knew you knew essentially.” Well considering I outanked most of my instructors I was like, okay you know– Like you know like no cell phones or no smoking for the privates but then we go hang out with the instructors behind the buildings and call our wives and smoke cigarettes cause if it wasn’t anything essential, like especially the first three weeks were basically a rehash of combat training and then the last four weeks you break up into your specific jobs, they train all the infantry there. (29:05) So we just went to class and then graduated and went back to our units, it was still fun though, and that’s when I found out I lost all my time in grade as a sergeant. Yeah I was promoted June 2003 to sergeant, was it? No, 2002 and then when I came back to active duty they reset my date of rank, which being in the military one of the important parts of getting promoted was time in grade. So you have to be a certain rank so long before you’re even eligible for the next rank, so I lost like two and half years' time in grade, that was fun. Interviewer: “And you couldn’t fight that at all?” No, even though I was involuntarily activated, that comes in later, this is a big whine fest I think. So I graduate in October ‘04, go to my unit and then the next– What was it? Yeah it was the next October, October ‘05 but in that time they send me to sergeants course, some counter terroism course, all these frickin courses cause apparently they thought I was smart or something, and �Rowland, Daniel then October ‘05 we head over to Fallujah, Iraq this was after the push through I think it was Phantom Fury is what is was called. We’re the first unit to take over the area after the push through, and at the time I’m like “Oh, I’m gonna be a platoon sergeant.” Because you know I’m a sergeant and then they’re like “Nope, you’re going to headquarters company.” “What?” And then they stick me in an entry control point in the middle of Fallujah, basically the city was– I don’t want to say quarantined or blockade, but to get in the city you had to go through one of six checkpoints, you know they had to search you, we had a little vehicle. All these, you know kind of like the TSA but you know not as stupid, so I got stuck there for the deployment. Nothing too exciting, I had a little satellite outpost where we did commercial traffic, semis and crap, we got into a fire fight a couple of times because we’re like right on the main highway and right behind us was like this big gully, I don’t even know. So somebody could just like walk into the city through it if they were somewhat evasive and they’d walk up and take pot shots at us and that was not as exciting as it sounds cause you’re on– We did 24 on, 24 off so you’d be bored most of the time “Ooh search the– Search the big truck full of stones!” We had the long like rebars we had to stick in their and we’re looking for bombs or something, I don’t know, and then pretty quiet till March of ‘06. (31:37) Then our main checkpoint got blown up from one of those orange dump trucks, google it you’ll see them, and somebody decided to blow it up and we only lost one Marine and a couple of Iraqi guys because we had the Iraqi army and police working with us too, about 30 wounded because the concrete barriers they like to use like to turn into microscopic shrapnel, once you have you know a couple thousands of pounds of explosives go off next to it. So then a couple days all the guys would have the fragments in them from the explosion, started becoming sick their body was rejecting it, but since I was at the little satellite outposts I went over– Cause the explosion was– So we were 600 yards from them and it knocked me on my ass, that’s how big the explosion was and then I got to go over there with some of the Iraqi guys and it was just like the little building, everything was just knocked the hell down but most of the– And I don’t– Did they over teach you OPSEC? I assume they teach you OPSEC when you’re in, you know like if you travel change your routes and stuff. Well our brilliant bosses every day at the same time was the changeover, when the one team would come out and go off so after six months of doing the same thing every day they knew when to hit us. So needless to say it was kind of– And I pointed this out months before but you know I was just an E5 what did I know? It’s not like seven years being in a security office going to, you know, the naval criminal �Rowland, Daniel investigation security managers course, the DSS security managers course, I got certificates a mile long but no, I didn’t know nothing. Being a security manager for the invasion for a general, no what did I know cause– I’m gonna try, you know those clover leaves when you get on the highway, they like wrap around, we were like right in the middle of one so when somebody hits the on ramp they can look down and it was just– This is something a frickin moron should be able to look at and be like “That doesn’t seem that secure with the on ramp open.” So whatever, so I started building an animosity towards officers, more so after that because you know when they don’t listen it’s like “Really?” But anyways that’s besides the point, and that was the first time I lost somebody under my command so– Cause technically I was second in charge of that unit, I had an E7 and then me and then we had like 15 guys under us or whatever so still a little haunted by that, anyway [unintelligible] Interviewer: “So stepping back a little bit when it comes to working with the Iraqi police and–” Yeah they were pretty good, nothing weird about them just dudes trying to make a living. Interviewer: “You didn’t worry at all that they might be with any of these groups?” (34:28) Not at that time, cause we’re talking a couple years after– They, I guess the local government they had a pretty good way of vetting you know I mean I never had a problem with them. Hell usually when we closed down the post we’d go– Cause we had a little trailer and these guys, I don’t know if you ever saw the big shipping containers, they would basically– They built bunk beds and stuff in there for them because those guys were out there for like a month, they weren’t– Like after 24 hours we go back to our little base, have our nice little beds and these poor guys are out there but we’d go in there and we’d smoke hookahs with them and have some tea, play cards, whatever you know just dudes. They were some– Well let’s just say they loved cellphones too because they would show some nasty– They’re just red blooded dudes like anybody else man, they were just trying to make a living to support their families. So for the most part, no I never had to worry about them, plus yeah I’d also gone through an Arabic course �Rowland, Daniel I can even speak the conversational toddler so that was fun too. That’s the way I look at it, I was never that great at it. Interviewer: “Did any of the guys under your command have any issues with them like pick fights with them or anything?” No, I think initially some guys were worried but after a month or two you find out they’re just regular guys and there’s nothing bad about them. Which is I guess counterintuitive from what people have been told but like a lot of guys that would even put the bombs on the side of the road it’s not like they were fundamentalist terrorists, someone’s like “Hey, here’s a couple hundred dollars go put this–” But this is the point where they were stop setting them off themselves, it was the ones where, well the full term would be victim actuated improvised explosive devices, pretty much like imagine a pressure plate and when you drove over it it would complete the circuit and blow up. So some of these guys would go and just set them up and the ones that we would caught they’re not terrorist or anything they’re just like “Oh hey someone paid me X amount of dollars to do this.” (36:22) Interviewer: “And what would– Did you ever catch any of these guys yourself?” Well I mean we didn’t other like units, we were pretty stationary so we weren’t even mobile but from what I heard a lot of the ones they did catch in the act they were just doing it cause they were paid, because you know that– During that period of time you know that was before the full rebuilding effort, it was hard man I could imagine a guy “Hey I need to get food for my family.” Here a dude “Here’s some money man go put this over by the road.” “Okay.” So it’s– I wish it was as clean cut as that, oh here’s a bad guy shoot him, but is he a bad guy or just someone down on his luck, I don’t know. It’s very– It’s always a lot more complicated than people make it out to be in the media, but anyway but at the end of that then we came home in April of ‘06 and we did what Marines do, you know run a lot, train a lot, and get ready to go back over the next year so then we went back in October– I’m sorry April of ‘07. That was the standard fair, go for seven, eight months, come home for eight or nine and then go back over but eight or nine at �Rowland, Daniel home wasn’t– You weren’t home, we had to go to California for a month or two, then we had to go to Virginia, all this training, go in the field every other week it seemed like, train train train. Interviewer: “Now going back to the orange dump truck, did you guys– Did that at least spark some change?” Not really. Interviewer: “Like did you guys move the security point at that point, better off site?” No they had it rebuilt within 24 hours, they closed the on ramp, that was it. We were gone within a month so nobody seemed to care. Interviewer: “Okay, and–” The prevailing attitude is if you’re a lower rank you’re expendable, I mean that’s the– (38:08) Let’s call it what it is, your job is to die for the cause and if you do they’ll just “Hey, we got guys back at the base we’ll just fill in the roster.” Cause that’s all they did, when everybody got his I think four or five of us out of 30 people between the two crews, like three or four of us stayed out there and they just replaced them with a bunch of other dudes, it was like we didn’t miss a beat, you know can’t stop operations man, mission accomplishment and all that crap. So yeah they closed down the ramp, engineers rebuilt the place in like a couple of hours and hey we’re up and running again. Military efficiency, whooo! I mean that’s just the way it works man, which I understand but then it seems like the lack of– I understand that you have to do what you have to do, I get that but then it seems like even afterwards when you do have time to breathe, no one else really seems to give a crap, is that? Now obviously in old school conventional wars when you had to push through, push through yeah you didn’t have time and I get that but like what we were doing, out of seven months you know six and a half of it was pretty damn boring. So needless to say we– You know but there’s always downtime especially when we’re home within a month it’s like, okay thanks for not giving a shit. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So, you went home, you did your year of training.” Yeah and then we went back, this time I actually was a platoon sergeant and I got my own 24 guys, six we were a mobile assault platoon, five gun trucks in a high back, basically a pickup truck with big walls and we got to travel around and try to find interesting people and shoot them. So that was a hoot but things are really quieted down by that compared to the last time, I think the first time I was in Fallujah everything was blowing up and there were roadside bombs like every five feet it seemed like but the second time it was actually pretty quiet. Interviewer: “Were you again near Fallujah?” We were in the same exact spot. Interviewer: “Same on ramp and everything?” (40:10) Well no that was entry control point, this time I was actually with the weapons company with an actual mobile assault platoon but I mean we were on the same forward operating base, some of us were sleeping in the same beds we were a year before. We were exactly back, the only difference was the first time we were there the city was like divided up into three areas and all these different units had a different area of responsibility. When we went back we had the whole city to ourselves, it had calmed down that much, so we’re like “Okay” and for the most part, like I think the first time we were there we lost ten or 12 guys maybe, there was actually a sniper out there in January too when we were there, he killed a couple guys, mostly Iraqi police, Iraqi army. I think we lost a couple guys and so we had– So we lost about ten to 15 guys and I think we had about 20 wounded, the second time we were there I think we lost two, maybe three, but one of them was a– We were there like not even a week and some engineer that had been attached to our unit, new guy, went to a porta chuter and offed himself. Interviewer: “Jeez.” �Rowland, Daniel Not– And then another one some dude was driving down the road really fast and his humvee hit a dune and the guy got thrown out the back and killed, so two of our KIAs were through accidents or self-inflicted injuries. So I guess you don’t count those when you’re talking killed in action which is normally enemies but this time no. Interviewer: “I mean it’s still people dying.” I understand the sympathy from regular but when you’re in that scenario it’s like– Well one died cause they were stupid like don’t speed in your humvee down the road, you know so he was a casualty of stupid and the other was, you know I guess he got there and he couldn’t hack it, we had only been there a week. So is it sad? Yes but can I feel sympathy towards him? Not really, I mean if you don’t want to go I understand that but like we had guys that were more creative, they were like self inflicting injuries before we left like dropping weights on their feet and breaking their feet. Oh that’s fine, then you get charged for malingering but still you don’t have to go. Interviewer: “I mean–” (42:22) I’m just saying if you don’t want to go to Iraq there’s things you can do before we even leave where you’re not offing yourself, I’m just saying callous but when you’ve been over the multiple times and you’ve seen your friends die from enemy action and crap, it’s hard to feel sympathy for other people, like you knew what you were getting into when you signed up especially in 2007, 2008 I mean we’d already been at war for like six, seven years it’s like if you signed the dotted line and didn’t think you were going why’d you sing up? It’s not like they were drafted it was still all volunteer force, it sounds cold but given the circumstances you probably know what you’re getting into, and besides he was like a– He was a motor team mechanic or an engineer it’s not like they ever left the base, again not trying to be a dick but you know from my perspective it’s like oh I gotta go out into town two, three times a day and potentially get shot at and you’re sitting here, you know on the base really not doing anything, and by then we had a nice chow hall, I mean like salad bar, sandwich bar nice even brought in the guys from Indy to work it for us, it was pretty swank. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So when you were going out and, you know as you said it, searching for interesting people to meet and shoot did you have a lot of action?” Not as much as one would think but it seemed the other units–Or the other platoons always got the fun stuff, hell it was our first week, we got there and then we ripped with the unit we were replacing which is like ride along, riding along, basically like they go out and then like your leaders will ride with them and then you’ll slowly phase in your guys and replace theirs. I think it was about the second week we’re driving down the road and we get called to go to an incident and somebody had been driving on the road, some idiot and I use these terms with endearment, had an accident in the convoy and wandered off onto a dirt road and gotten belly shotted. By this time the insurgent tactics had moved to burying IEDs in the road so, you know general protocol was don’t drive down dirt roads. Well somebody did and belly shotted a humvee and we got to go clean it up. Interviewer: “By that you mean they drove over it and the bomb went off under?” (44:47) Yeah the– If I was– Me standing in the blast like my head stuck up, I don’t know if they buried it that deep or it was the explosion cause I mean I don’t even know what ammunition they used we were just there for clean up. So most time you think the 155 shells or whatever, you know where the charge could blow up but this could’ve been one the blew up and down and made the hole deeper, I don’t know, but yeah we got to pick up a couple guys in ziploc bags, take them to the main base morgue, and I think half of our guys were like new, so we kind of like left them over the road while we collected things and them brought them back but like it was– It was just sloppy, it always seemed– Cause as a mobile assault platoon we were more– We were too fast for like them to just sit down and ambushes, that’d be more for like the foot patrols. We were more reactionary so we always showed up when things were going on or just finished that was kind of our job, or to project a military presence. Interviewer: “Basically you would go around.” �Rowland, Daniel Is that the correct term that they use, or projecting force, I don’t know. So and then another time, this one’s funny, we had a– There was a big intersection of Fallujah and the Iraqi police, I don’t even like know stoplights, they made like this little plywood– I’m trying to think of what you– You know just imagine like a little plywood like tool booth if you would, a little bigger with a roof on it and surrounded by sandbags and you know they’re out there directing traffic or whatever and somebody takes– I guess sidestep, our commander, the battalion commander, they basically more effectively cinched off the city to prevent you know ammunition and bombs coming in. So– And it worked because eventually the insurgents in the city started making their own, it was some yellow powder I don’t remember, but anyway this little bongo truck– It looks like a roller skate, just google bongo truck and you’ll see they’re ridiculously small, this thing was loaded with barrels of this explosive and he’s rolling down the road, runs into this Iraqi police post and detonates. Now the one thing apparently insurgents can’t do is make their own explosives, so the stuff in the cab went off, nothing else did. So he hits this little post of these guys, I think one dude ended up breaking his leg just from the force of the impact but that was it. (47:23) We get called up and we gotta cordon off the area and secure it, cause you know it’s still explosive, so we’re just sitting there looking at this little blue bongo truck and inside the cab it’s just messy because the guy managed to blow himself up and it’s just, you know guts and gore over the– All over the windows and of course we found it hilarious, it’s like if you’re gonna die for the cause fine but you know i expect you want to take more than just yourself with you. Of course the downside is all this stuff spilled over the road, we had to wait for explosives ordnance guys to come out and clean it up and I think we spent like 12 hours out there it was so boring. One time like a dog runs by and runs away with a guy’s hand and yeah go ahead and laugh it was– Now at this point you’re in country a few months, you’re just bored, you’re just laughing so hard cause they open the door to try to, you know check the detonation device and all that other stuff and it’s– So yeah we had fun too. Interviewer: “Were you still on pretty good terms with the Iraqi police and military there?” Yeah I mean they were– Well I mean the police are from the area, the Iraqi army would normally be from a different part of the country cause I guess you’d look at it like– If you think back to the �Rowland, Daniel Civil War they’d have like, you know the Michigan whatever unit, they’re all from the same town wherever, and that’s the way the Iraqi army was. So– And they would bring in guys from a different part of the country because they didn’t know anyone locally but the Iraqi police were local. Yeah they were pretty good guys, no problems there I mean– Interviewer: “What about the civilians?” You know what they’re just people trying to live their lives man, for the most part they just did what they did and we just went around. I mean it comes to this, if you weren’t dicks to them or you weren’t, you know if you weren’t overly– If you just treat them like people you got along fine, you know there’s a lot of– I’m sure we’ve all heard stories of the military that were over there and like being over dickish, I don’t know if it was just because the Middle Easterners in general were dehumanized or because they were just– I mean I don’t know but no they were just regular people. Hell we would normally stop for– Grab lunch from a little place down on– I mean we name the streets after like– I mean you can’t pronounce Iraqi but like north to south– Yeah north to south had female names and east to west had male names but like the main drag was called [sounds like “Frayen”] and there’s a little guy running a kebab shop there and we’d pop in and get some lunch every couple of days whenever we’re around. (50:03) He was a nice guy, give him money, we get food and it was pretty good food, jeez wonder if there’s any good kebab shops around here, anyway– Hey man. Interviewer: “Now you’ve got me wanting kebabs.” I know right cause, you know what cause the stuff was fresh like right next door was an actual butcher’s shop. I mean all our stuff is processed as hell, and here you are, you know you pull up to the kebab shop, you hear the cows and goats mooing next door like okay I guess it’s fresh. Interviewer: “So you didn’t ever really worry that one of these guys is gonna attack you or anything?” �Rowland, Daniel It comes down to two mindsets, you can either– If you’re gonna worry about it you’re gonna worry all the time and you’re just gonna go crazy or you’re gonna be so hyper tense all the time you’ll snap, or you’re just like if it happens it happens, you know if you’re comfortable in your training– I mean they call it muscle memory when you do something enough but it also applies to other things like if you hear a gunshot or you hear an explosion you should instinctively know how to react and if you trust that training, then you just don’t worry about it. I mean you’re worried but you’re not– You know, otherwise you’re that paranoid guy who thinks the FBI is listening to his thoughts through the, you know dentures in his mouth and that’s not a good way to go or you’re– It’s gonna be a long ass seven months, he just eventually if it happens it happens. Interviewer: “Were you guys ever ambushed?” Directly no, I mean we had a couple IEDs once, nothing huge like I hit one and blew out the tire I think was unconscious a couple minutes but by then we had the new humvees like the doors were like thicker and all this crap. So it like scratched the paint cause it was– Because it was where we were driving on the main street and we would like go down to one end of the city and come back, it really wasn’t that big but we went down and by the time we came back apparently somebody put it there. (52:00) I mean it wasn’t like hey cause we drove and then we turned around and came back driving the same path that we did and then drove over it and it blew. So it’s like somebody– It’s like when you’re watching T.V and somebody throws out those little spike strips that the cops do, that’s how quick he must have done it because it was right next to an open field. So the guy must have sprinted out– After we drove by the first time must have sprinted out, dropped it, ran back, I don’t know it was weird. Interviewer: “And no one got injured in that cause of the–” No, we blew like two or three tires on the humvee but we just pulled into one of our little bases, swapped them out, and on our way again. Nice and quick, nice and painless, that deployment was actually pretty laid back except for, you know stupid lieutenants but, you know. Oh my lieutenant was an idiot, oh I know I have to explain it. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Yeah– I mean you don’t have to but–” He’s the kind of guy– Like we go out and do two or three patrols a day, and he would “Okay” show up 45 minutes early to our staging area and then he pulled out the map and he’d be pointing “This is the route–” We would get objectives, like “Oh, we want you to check this spot, this spot, this spot by the command– By the head shed.” And then he would map out all the directions and we’re like “Why don’t we just go as long as we make all our checkpoint?” And he started like “Oh let’s drive down this road, this road.” “Those are dirt roads.” You know hey didn’t we first learn this lesson when we got in the country, and then– So I was the kind of guy I would tell my lead truck guy like– Cause all of my vehicle commanders had been there before, this like I said this is their second time in Fallujah and I’m like “Yeah just as long as we’re making the checkpoints drive however you want to get there.” That created a lot of tension between me and the lieutenant, I didn’t give a crap because I don’t want to get belly shotted. We saw how this works, so screw him, and he was one of the pretentious assholes, pardon my language. Interviewer: “Did he try to get back at you for this?” (53:57) Oh yeah I mean they always do that, you know you get in trouble for– I don’t know about this, you get in trouble or you do something they don’t agree with but it’s not against the rules so then they make up some shit to get back at you later. I mean nothing bad like I didn’t get a bad fitness report or anything but yeah he was one of those guys. He graduated from one of those prestigious schools and he didn’t– Whatever, I don’t care, he was a dick. So he– Yeah that created a lot of crap between me and him but I didn’t care, all my guys made it home, I mean I think the worst thing to happen to one of our guys is he got appendicitis, whoop-dee-doo, but then you always have the commanders and like we had a 1st sergeant that was really bored. I love this rule, so we lived in this old– It’s called Camp Baharia, it was an old bath party luxury resort it had like man made lakes in it and stuff. Apparently Saddam used to have like race boat– Or speed boat races and crap so all these little huts and stuff and you know after the war all the Iraqi siblings came and like stole it all like the plumbing, the windows, all this crap. So we just have these shells of �Rowland, Daniel buildings and they have the porta crappers across the road from where we live and our 1st sergeant’s like “Don’t leave your little house unless you’re at least in PT gear!” So one day one of my guys he woke up, goes to the bathroom, he's just in his shorts, and he got a page 11 for doing that. Interviewer: “Page 11 is?” Basically a reprimand in your file, so yeah cause he woke up and had to pee he got in trouble for not putting a shirt on to go across the street in the middle of summer, in 130 degree weather, yeah I know right. Interviewer: “Seems legit.” These are people that, again goes back to the kind of person, I got– Cause everything we did was at a platoon level or lower so the company staff, they got really bored and they would do stuff like enforce stupid ass rules. Alright maybe not– It– Whatever I think they’re stupid “Hey we’re in a war zone! Don’t forget to put your shirt on.” Cause you gotta go to the bathroom (56:15) Interviewer: “So pretty much nothing really that eventful happened at that point.” Nothing, nothing exciting, or at least not to us I mean other of our platoons they’ll get into firefights. I guess one time they were driving– One guy– One unit was driving down a road and they have a– Fallujah’s got like a little industrial section in the southeast like all warehouses and stuff, they were driving down there some guys come out of a building wearing suicide vests and they were looking at each other and then our guys just turned their guns and started shooting at them, see we missed all the fun stuff, I don’t know. Interviewer: “That’s–” Alright it’s not fun in general but when you’re in an armored vehicle and somebody’s shooting at you with AK-47s and is still far enough where the suicide vests won’t actually do anyhting and �Rowland, Daniel all you have to do is rotate your 50 caliber machine gun down the alley and fire. I mean 50 caliber bullets are pretty– They’re lethal for like, you know small armored vehicles let alone people, there’s not much left of you. So you always hear those stories and you’re like “Why wasn’t I there?” Interviewer: “So when did you leave?” We left October of ‘07, got back and then that was pretty much the highlight of my career. I reenlisted a couple months later and my choices were I could stay with the unit and get a $20,000 bonus or I could pick my own duty station. Well my dumbass picked the– My own duty station cause who needs 20 grand? Well also the mentality of I’ve been over three times and managed to still be alive, I don’t want to push my luck. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” Plus at that point my son was about four or five and I basically missed half his life, like when we got back my third time I went to pick him up and he was crying because he didn’t know who the hell I was, that’s depressing. (58:07) So I’m like “Yeah I’ll stay stateside for a while.” And then I ended up being– Where the hell was it? Camp Johnson which is kind of a weird cyclical thing, that was the base I went to originally to learn to be an administrative clerk. Interviewer: “Where was that at?” It’s like right next to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, there’s like Camp Lejeune and then there’s Camp Johnson, Camp Geiger, the air station. Camp Geiger is where they train the infantry, Camp Johnson’s where they teach the mechanics, the administrative clerks, the financial clerks, and the box kickers– Warehouse guys, their school’s two week it’s like “Why are you even here?” So I basically ended back up where I started and the only jobs there for grunts were sergeant of the guard, basically before a Marine goes into job training if there’s not a class starting they stick them in a barracks and make them little crap jobs like, you know like “Oh hey go help the maintenance guys.” Or go to– Well we got 40 guys to stand around and tell �Rowland, Daniel the Marines their shirts are tucked in, it was pretty mindless but I was fine with that because I didn’t– I wanted mindless I wanted to be home and, pretty much not that exciting, I just sat around with a bunch of other– Of course the problem was is the mentality, there were like seven of us there, there were guys from 1st Battalion 6th Marines, 3rd Battalion and me and we’d all– We’d actually all been in Iraq together, all of our units around, so our mentality was different than a bunch of guys learning to be, you know accountants. So needless to say there were multiple classes, though my first year there was probably my greatest year in the Marine Corps. My immediate– My commanding officer was a guy I had served with during the invasion, so again back to the small world. So yeah I got to basically get away with murder and I’m not saying I did anything wrong but we had pretty lax guidelines at this point. When guys you had served with in combat are your bosses, but it was all– Our sergeant major was about the top enlisted guy, was actually with 3-6, he was like 5”1, his actual last name was Meanie, he was single and he rode a Harley. Yes, everything you can imagine, he would have like an NCO call for all the corporals and sergeants and he would be like “Well first two kegs are on me.” You know the kind of senior enlisted guy that you only hear of in like fantasies and like I think he was within six months. We were at a physical training thing and some 1st sergeant pissed him off so he laid him out. (1:00:52) Interviewer: “Like hit him?” Yeah, from what I hear, and then he got transferred to a deploying unit which I think in hindsight is what he wanted, I mean he was those kind of guy he could– You could like just drop him off in Iraq and he would live there because he’s that kind of guy, but yeah but once those guys started leaving then we got the pricks and that’s essentially where my career ended because I couldn’t get promoted to staff sergeant. In the Marine Corps if you don’t make E6 by 13 you’re out so. Interviewer: “Okay so you were forcibly discharged.” I was– I was unable to reenlist, but and then that goes back to when they took my two and half, three years time in grade because as an infantry Marine you normally had to be in a sergeant for �Rowland, Daniel two or three years before you’re even eligible for promotion and by the time– So that was ‘04 so I was, I think it was in the– In the Marine Corps you have Marines in the zone, below zone and above zone so like they need a hundred dudes, they’ll put 200 guys in the zone, and that’s all based on how long you’ve been and E5 and I think my first year I was in the below zone. That’s basically like “Oh we can’t find enough good guys we’ll go down here and look.” So by the time I was– And that just happened to coincide with the downsizing, they were gonna cut 20 or 30,000 Marines. They were promoting 400 Marines in my job a year, the year I was finally eligible they cut it down to 90, it was like– So that along with my lost time in grade, you know I should’ve been eligible for promotion two years earlier but now it was like, it was just a cluster fudge and it kind of– Came to and end, which I was fine with because I was unable to reenlist through no fault of my own, they gave me a nice severance package which was fun. I mean if you’re gonna get out– Interviewer: “You might as well get a severance from it right?” Yeah but at the end of the day I, at that point I think I had 15 years in, a year and half later they offered 15 year retirements. Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” (1:02:55) Oh I know right, but anyway that was pretty much the bulk of it. Interviewer: “So that was your last duty station then you separated? What’d you do after?” Farted around a while, I bought a house in Jacksonville where Camp Lejeune is and of course in 2010, guess what happened in 2008. I went with downsizing, the housing market was just– So I couldn’t leave, it was so sad because living in a military town when you’re no longer in the military is like ehhh. Bummed around a while and then I finished my first master’s degree, I’d started when I was in Iraq the third time, I was bored and like “I’m going to school.” And then I don’t know, stuff just happened, I got sick of living there and then you learn the whole “It’s who �Rowland, Daniel you know” adage, like I would try to apply for the jobs on base and never seem to get them, but now it’s just me whining. Interviewer: “I mean the transition from civilian– Or military to civilian is hard.” Well in a military town like that the jobs paid crap because there’s always an overabundance of workers, military spouses and stuff so they can pay you less money because if you quit or you get fired they got ten more lined up in the back. So the jobs just sucks and any good jobs on base it’s who you knew, like one time there was an educational counselor job open at the base education center, you know I had a bachelor’s in counseling and a master’s in education, I didn’t get an interview. Things like that you know and after that I just gave up and eventually “Well let’s just pack it in and move.” So when my marriage started going south, my second one, I just grabbed my kid and moved back here to Michigan and said “Hey let’s go back to school again.” Cause they gave me an extra year free, G.I bill so nothing amazing. Interviewer: “And that’s what you’re doing now?” Yeah I’m going to school and running into people like you who ask me to do things like this, which isn’t bad I guess, taking worthless English classes. (1:04:50) Interviewer: “So nothing– The military didn’t really prepare you for the civilian life?” I’m– In the general context they do not, for me it– I mean this is gonna sound egotistical again but I didn’t need them too because I’d done four years and gotten out the first time, then I went back in, then when I got out the next time, you know– I think the best thing that prepared me for transition was still living in a military town and knowing how it is, and then by the time I get back up here it’s a totally different community like for one you know people around here actually like veterans. Well when you’re in a military town they’re like “Who cares you’re a veteran get the hell out of my face.” So no they put you through like a three day class when you get out “Here’s how you do a resume, this is how you do this, this is how–” You know there’s no– They give you information that you can find on your own they don’t actually– It’s like �Rowland, Daniel coming back from combat, they’re like “hey don’t beat your family members.” You know they don’t actually transition you from a combat scenario back to, you know peacetime or back to life back in the states, it’s done really poorly. Interviewer: “Was that hard for you?” Not for me but for everyone cause I mean having the– I think it was easier for me because my first time in Iraq I didn’t really see combat but I got enough of it to know what was going on so when I went back the second time I knew what to expect plus having, you know the self– Cause having like the degree in social work I already knew the generic psychological aspects, all this and that so I could help prep myself but it was just one of those weird things where what I already knew just happened to fit what I was going to do. It’s really weird how it all came together but I could also see at the same time that for the regular guys coming back that it wasn’t anything special, it wasn’t anything– It was one of those dichotomies it’s like you know come back if you’re feeling sad or whatever talk to somebody but yet at that time if you went and like saw a shrink your career is pretty much over. They’ve destigmatized a lot in the last five, ten years but at that time they’re telling you to do but everybody else knew if you did you’re pretty much done. (1:07:18) So, I don’t know, that’s where you see the transition of what it was like to what it is and I know– To my understanding it’s still not that great now but yeah from military to civilian life good luck with that. I mean they don’t really– They tell you a lot of things but they don’t actually tell you– Help you– Having the information and using that information in a meaningful manner are two different things, so it’s like you know you come back “Here, have a book. Get the hell out.” You know it’s like it’s not the same thing as actually helping someone transition. So once you get those discharge papers, you know go away, I don’t care anymore you are no longer under my command, get the F out I don’t care. So now you’re out there alone you’re like “Who do I go to?” You have to find out all this on your own, like nobody tells you that there’s veterans service officers, that you can go to the American legion, the VFW, the DAV and all these other accessible things. They may mention them in passing but they don’t actually tell you what they do, what they can offer, all this other stuff but whatever hey that’s just the military. Once you’re no longer able to die for your country they don’t give a crap. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So are you– Would you recommend the military to someone?” It depends on the person, what you want and what you’re willing to do. Interviewer: “How would you feel about your son joining the military?” I’d tell him to join the Air Force. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” If he joined the Marine Corps I’d smack him upside the head, like I was stupid you don’t need to be stupid, or if you could do it in a capacity which you can maximize your benefits but minimize your risks, I mean again that sounds kind of selfish or something but at the end of the day, you know I don’t want my kid signing up and going off to die, I mean I don’t think anybody does, but if he wants to join, get some job experience, some military expereince, and some money for college well that’s great but if that’s all you want out of it– Like don’t join and enlist in the Army as a soldier you know as an infantry. That’s the dumbest thing but some people like that and again that’s why I’m saying it depends on the person. (1:09:30) If somebody’s all gung ho I want to serve my nation and go to war well hot damn sign up, become infantry if that’s what you want but some people– And it’s the aptitude as well, some people just they could be the smartest person in the room but if they’re unable to listen to authority and keep their mouth shut, not a good choice but that’s just me. Interviewer: “Alright, that just about wraps us up, was there anything else you wanted to say?” No, I’m good. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RowlandD2291V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowland, Daniel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-12 Title A name given to the resource Rowland, Daniel (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Daniel Rowland was born in 1975 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and decided to enroll in the Marine Corps after his third semester in college. In 1995 Rowland attended boot camp in San Diego, California where he acted as the guide to recruits, After basic training, Rowland was sent to Camp Pendleton to complete Marine combat training. After completing Marine combat training, Rowland was sent to job training in North Carolina where he received training to become an administrative clerk. Rowland then spent three and a half years stationed in Hawaii at Camp Smith working as an administrative clerk. During this time, Rowland would be sent for occasional brief missions in South Korea. While he was stationed in Hawaii, Rowland also received his associate’s degree in business and bachelor’s degree in social work. In 1998 Rowland returned home and left active duty, joining the individual ready reserves where he did occasional active duty. One of these active-duty missions was a mission to go to North Carolina in 200. Due to the events of 9/11, this resulted in Rowland being involuntarily activated for two years during which he worked in a security manager’s office as an administrative clerk. In 2003 Rowland was deployed to Iraq as part of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade as the assistant security manager. After returning from Iraq to the United States by boat, Rowland decided to return to active duty as an infantryman in 2004. In 2005 Rowland’s unit was sent to Fallujah, Iraq working in headquarters company, and in 2006 Rowland came home for a year before being sent back to Fallujah, Iraq for a third time. Rowland returned home to the United States in 2007 and was stationed at Camp Johnson as a sergeant of the guard before being forcibly discharged and going on to return to school and resume civilian life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c1c4311f80fd91c87c8f6df7c4fe518e.mp4 fd90bd5780920385eb90fde8c63b63c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a832471d08964179a01a9da0de3e357d.pdf a9172b9d8f95408ed38b1c237b1b205d PDF Text Text Rowland, Daniel Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Iraq War Interviewee’s Name: Daniel Rowland Length of Interview: (1:09:57) Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “I’m here with Daniel Rowland from Comstock Park and the interviewer is Koty Leroy Rollins of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Alright Daniel let’s just jump into this, when were you born and where at?” Well I was born in Grand Rapids in 1975, July time frame, at least that’s what my parents told me, they could be wrong I don’t know. Interviewer: “You never know. So what was your early life like? What–” (00:57) Ah pretty mundane, I mean pretty common, went to school, grew up, had an older brother who liked to, you know be an older brother we’ll just leave it at that. Nothing too exciting. Interviewer: “Alright, when did you enlist and what led you to that choice?” My brother had enlisted in the Marine Corps and I’m like “Oh that’s cool.” Then I– The sad fact was I actually applied for an ROTC scholarship and got a full ride to North Carolina State University and my lack of discipline led me to drop out and enlist. Interviewer: “Okay, so you enlisted after spending how much time in college?” Three semesters, cause apparently if you go to college on the government’s dime and don’t finish, you owe them money, or you enlist. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Sounds about right, did your brother like, tell you all these cool stories, did he prep you for boot camp or anything?” Nah, he only went in about a year and a half before me, I mean he told me things but in retrospect I think he was just messing with me. Interviewer: “What type of things did he tell you then?” Oh it’s not that hard, it’s fun and you know typical big brother taunting the little brother things as you follow his footsteps. That makes it not as enjoyable as one would think. Interviewer: “Okay, so what was boot camp like then were you prepared for it at all?” In general yeah I mean it’s not– Physically it wasn’t that hard but you know coming from three semesters in ROTC I kind of already knew the drill of stuff. (2:30) So this is gonna sound self aggrandizing to a certain extent but like I think it was about two weeks in they made me the guide for the platoon and I ended up doing that because I already knew a lot of the stuff like ranks and all that because like I said the three semester in ROTC kind of gave me a head start on everything that they teach you, common Marine Corps history, Navy ranks, Marine Corps ranks, how to march, of course that might of been nine years of marching band too but either way– I was a geek. Interviewer: “So you were pretty prepared.” For the general knowledge and physical aptitude but I’m sure as you know being a former Navy is– No matter how much you know being prepared is not as easy as it sounds especially when you’re the guide, somebody messes up you get punished. Interviewer: “And stepping back just a little bit one thing I forgot to ask, did you have any family history of military or were you and your brother like the first.” �Rowland, Daniel I had an uncle serve in Vietnam but he died there and I never knew him so I couldn’t say, and then my other uncle was in the Air Force for two years but he went to Germany, came home and he had some pretty weird stories but we won’t go there, Germans are weird apparently. Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was just you and your brother then for the most part?” Yeah from the immediate family, nobody– Yeah, nobody else I knew served, I know my dad tried but got 4Fed cause bad feet or something and then I know my grandpa tried and “We need you home!” World War II but nobody– Nobody seemed to be able to get in until me and my brother. Interviewer: “Fair enough, now when you say 4F you mean like medically.” Right, yeah between his eyes and his feet I guess they didn’t want him. Back then– They weren’t as accepting back then of medical– Of any little medical condition where nowadays anybody– Cause they can fix most things, here have some new shoes. (4:22) Interviewer: “So going back to the boot camp thing you said you were the guide, was that like the leader of the cadets or what was that?” Yeah, I don’t know what did they call it. Yeah it’s you’re the head recruit, I guess you could say “in charge” but you really weren’t, you were pretty much the top– You’re pretty much who the drill instructors told to get stuff done and who to delegate. Interviewer: “And you were the one that got in trouble when someone else messed up.” Oh yeah, there were mornings I would be up before the rest of the platoon getting thrashed because someone messed up during the night or something, I don’t know, I don’t remember. Interviewer: “When you say getting thrashed do you mean like PT or like–” �Rowland, Daniel Yeah, no they don’t– They were not allowed physical contact but they could make you run in place, do push ups, there were four exercises, funnel kicks, push ups, run in place, don’t remember the fourth one off the top of my head but basically you did it until your arms were jelly and you couldn’t do anything else. Interviewer: “And this was in ‘95?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay.” I’m sure they still kind of do– I mean it was the Marine Corps, you gotta be hard ass I guess would be the term nowadays. Interviewer: “So pretty much everything else other than that you were good at, you knew.” (5:35) I wouldn’t say “good at” but I knew enough to not have to, you know worry about it, how's that sound. Interviewer: “Did you have any issues with the other recruits, I know sometimes they don’t take–” Well being the guide yeah sometimes like you’d have the one they just couldn’t get anything right or was moving too slow and you either had to help them out or get trashed more, I was in pretty good shape when I got out of boot camp. Interviewer: “Alright so when– Once you graduated boot camp what did you move onto?” �Rowland, Daniel Marine combat training which is three weeks of just basic cause every Marine is a rifleman so we had to basically go somewhere and spend three weeks in the field and living in tents and walking through woods, nothing amazing. Interviewer: “Nothing fun happened there?” Well one time it rained so hard that we had to come back from out of the field, when we went back the next day finding all our gear in the mud was fun. Yeah it was out in California, oh joy oh joy.” Interviewer: “So it was out in California.” Yeah it was the one with flashlights, I think it was I don’t know. Interviewer: “So you– Where did you go to boot camp at?” (6:42) San Diego, I was a Hollywood Marine as they call it. Interviewer: “So you went all the way from Michigan to San Diego for boot camp?” Yep and I came home for ten days, went back out to Camp Pendleton for the combat training. Interviewer: “Alright, and where’d you go after that?” Went to North Carolina for my job training, which I was initially an administrative clerk, yay. I know right I got to learn how to type. Interviewer: “That’s fun.” And file things. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So nothing exciting happened there?” Well it was kind of fun, my brother was stationed at Camp Lejeune and when everybody else had to stay on the base when we got there I got to leave for the weekend and it really pissed people off because, you know reasons and then well I ended up meeting– I ended up getting married at a job training, I met a female Marine that was going to school as well, let’s just say that didn’t end well but I’ll just leave that at that. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” What if we’re gonna talk about it might as well just throw it all out there right? Interviewer: “Hey, it’s your story.” Then I drove cross country and went to Hawaii for three and a half years. (7:50) Interviewer: “Why did you have to drive cross country?” Well I bought– See that was one thing my brother was good for he was a tia– Traffic management office or whatever, he’s the guy that ships stuff around and when we graduated job training they’re like “You can only take like two sea bags with you.” And then I asked my brother and he’s like “Nah man you can ship whatever you want, car or whatever.” So I bought a car, drove across the country, had it shipped out of San Francisco and went to Hawaii cause I’m like– Cause you know how they are they want to tell all the new guys “Oh no you can’t do this or that.” I mean if I was gonna be there for three and a half years I’m gonna have some stuff. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” For some reason cars in Hawaii are way overpriced. Interviewer: “I can confirm that.” �Rowland, Daniel I assume it’s shipping costs. Interviewer: “That and just everything is expensive in Hawaii that’s just how it goes.” Oh yeah, it was expensive 20 years ago when I was there I can only imagine today. Interviewer: “So, where’d you get stationed at in Hawaii?” Camp Smith, it’s a little ho dunk base right above Pearl Harbor in a residential area, nice view though I’ll give them that. When you look down you can see Pearl Harbor Hickam Air Force Base which is right in the middle of Pearl Harbor, it’s pretty nice. There was like– It only had four barracks on the base and like ten houses, it was commander in chief’s Pacific headquarters and Marine force Pacific headquarters, it might have been 4 or 500 people stationed there. It was interesting and small, I don’t know it wasn’t too bad. (9:20) Interviewer: “And you did what there?” I was an administrative clerk, I worked in the force adjutant when I first got there doing– But before everything was electronic we got to actually file all the orders and stuff. So ooh that was fun, and then I worked down in the classified vault for a couple of years, then ended up in the security manager’s office doing background checks and all that fun stuff, cause you know somebody’s gotta do it. So a nice wide array of things, went to Korea a couple times for exercises, got to go to Seoul and Joseon and, you know, see other countries and have some fun. Interviewer: “And what time frame did you go to Korea?” ‘96, ‘97, they were only for like a month or two each time, it wasn’t– Just some little exercises to annoy the North Koreans I guess. Interviewer: “Were you on like ships there or were you–” �Rowland, Daniel No we’d fly over and then work in some office, in some base, I don’t remember. The one time we were in the Korean Marine Corps Base living in GP tents on their dirt soccer field in the middle of summer and it gets hot over there and to boot the plumbing doesn't take toilet paper well, yeah you’ve never been to Korea have you? Interviewer: “I’ve been but–” And when you wipe you throw it in the trash can next to the toilet and then they would take it out and burn it. Well we were right downwind from the burn pit, so needless to say that one of my times in Korea was not the most fun. Interviewer: “So were you feeling some animosity from the South Koreans or was this just all by…” No, that's just the way they did it, I mean they had space– Because their little headquarters was like on a hill so any flat land you could get was amazing, so we just happened to be right downwind from the burn pit. (11:07) Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” Oh yeah cause we had to walk through the bulk of it on our way to chow so by the time you got there– It was a great dieting technique I guess, you didn’t have to feel the urge to eat. Interviewer: “So were you working like hand in hand with the South Koreans?” They were just joint exercises, I mean we were the command element so we didn’t actually go out and do stuff we were just doing like the fake information would come in and then we would process it and then disseminate down to lower command of guys actually doing stuff, so nothing amazing. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “And were you like sitting with generals and doing all this or were you just like sitting in a little tent typing on a thing.” Well I was representing the security manager so I basically was the guy running around shredding classified material, nothing too pressing. Yeah my job was not– It sounds all nice but it’s not as glamorous as one might think. Interviewer: “Were you like– Did you not enjoy this job? I’m assuming you didn’t sign up with the Marines to be a clerk.” When I signed up they gave me one of those job option packages that was air field service support, so like air traffic control or something, it was legal clerk or administrative clerk. So I’m like– I was fine with two of them but not the third and I’m sure you can guess which one I got because I’m like “Woah, hey legal clerk and air traffic controller that sounds kind of fun.” And based on my scores I’m like– Admin is like, out of three, the dumbest people go to admin and I don’t know why but whatever, I’m not gonna complain, needs of the Marine Corps. (12:43) Interviewer: “Fair enough.” So I got stuck there. Interviewer: “So your time in Hawaii was pretty uneventful?” Yeah for the most part, I went to school, I was there because, you know– Of course when I dropped out of college the first time you know my dad’s like “Oh you’re never gonna finish now!” So I had to prove him wrong cause I’m just that stubborn. Interviewer: “What did you get your degree in?” Associate’s in business and a bachelor’s in social work and then spent my last year, got divorced while I was there too, let’s just say as a single guy with a year left on the island I had some fun �Rowland, Daniel but we won’t go into that because this is a family program apparently and then I got out in– Went on a terminal leave in ‘98 and came home and got out, went to the IRR, individual ready reserve and hung out for a while. Interviewer: “Okay, and–” I’m just gonna roll into the next part I assume. Interviewer: “Yeah.” So employment was like I was trying to– I guess I think of that time that’s when they actually changed– In Michigan it was weird, you only needed a bachelor’s of social work to work in the field and then they changed it master’s degree and all that stuff so I’m like– Needless to say trying to get a job in the field I wanted wasn’t that great so during that time as a reserve Marine I could volunteer to do active duty every now and then. (14:05) I went a couple places just for like oh we need somebody here for a month or a month there so I dabbled around and then in 2001 there was an opportunity to go down to North Carolina for six months and I’m like “Okay, I’ll go down there.” So I signed up and they flew me down and needless to say you know in September stuff happened and at that time then we went over to– Well I didn’t go but the military went to Afghanistan and since I was there it was– I volunteered for six months and then since I was there when 9/11 happened they started calling up all the reserves like “Well while you’re here, here’s some orders to stay another year.” And then I was officially involuntarily recalled and for the next– Till 2004, every year I would get additional orders to stay another year, so I was basically involuntarily activated for two years. Interviewer: “And how did you feel about that, were you upset?” I was fine, it’s not like I had a job back home I’m like “Well hey” and yeah when I got there I was working at– I was originally working for the Marine reserve unit out of Lejeune and then I got moved up to the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Command Element cause a guy I worked with in Hawaii he’s a colonel now and he’s like “Oh you’re here.” I’m like “Oh, how are you �Rowland, Daniel doing?” Cause as you know the military’s actually kind of small, especially the Marine Corps, so having worked in the security manager’s office in Hawaii he stuck me in the security manager’s office in Lejeune so– Because they were just starting the office so I’m like “Okay” and by that time I was a corporal and I basically got to set that up. So that was fun, learning– Basically doing my old job again which was kind of weird because as an administrative clerk you can work in pretty much any– You can work with any unit, every unit rated an administrative clerk, you know they say you do 30 years you don’t do the same job twice so but apparently I got stuck in the same job again, but you know it pays off in the end. Interviewer: “So when you were recalled– Or not recalled but when you went down to North Carolina for the six months was the to do administrative work or were you doing something else?” Well yeah I was– They were– They were just, from my understanding I don’t know for sure, they were– What was it called it was like the Marine augmentation command element, basically it’s where a bunch of reserve guys, like older higher ranking guys that are retired and were still reserve. (16:37) It’s like if the command element ever went to war these guys would get called up to fill in key positions back in the rear. So they were just setting up and they just needed people to come down and help them set up their infrastructure and stuff so I’m like “Oh, okay.” Six months, I’d be doing admin stuff no big deal, I needed a job, they needed Marines, I’ll just go and then like I said 9/11 happened and stuff just got real and you know I was cheap to call up because I was already there. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” And so, then what happened? I don’t know, that was 2001, 2002, then I was dumb and got married again in 2003. Yeah I got married in February of 2003, they’d just gone over to invade Iraq in December and my office sent a Marine who apparently doesn’t know how to jump, got injured getting off a helicopter and they’re like “Oh hey, you’re going over to replace him in deployment.” I’m like “Okay.” So after being married three weeks I got whisked away to Iraq for 2003 and I worked with the– Well I guess it’d be more commonly called Task Force Tarawa the �Rowland, Daniel 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade and when I got to them in March it was the Battle of Nasiriyah and I was tasked as the assistant security manager of the– Basically the tent where the general and all his command stuff were and to got over sea this little security element we had and all this other fun stuff– Oh yeah I was a sergeant by then too, and I would stay there for the next seven years, we’ll get into that later. Interviewer: “When you say stay there you mean stay a sergeant, not stay.” Right, yeah. Yeah not in Iraq, though I was there enough I should’ve bought a summer home. So yeah just to gloss my own ego more I was a meritorious sergeant yeah. Interviewer: “Oh okay.” That’s for the record, because I was such an outstanding jarhead. Interviewer: “Not astounding enough to be an E6 but–” (18:37) Oh no but they give E5 and unders away as like candy, like “Oh here, get promoted.” So I was over there and got in some– Because we were responsible for the bulk of the forces, the Army, and the 1st Marine Division, went up through Saudi and went north– West and then swung around to Baghdad, we were supposedly tasked with mop up operations, heading in right south of Baghdad and then swinging east. So we had all these little small towns and crap but Nasiriyah was the worst fighting of the invasion. I was not actually in the fight but we were right behind them, you know command element we basically tell everyone what to do and you could see all the crap coming back and all the casualties,this, that. I mean it’s not– Nowhere near like a World War II or Vietnam scenario I think our casualties were only like 100 or less if you do MIAK– Or wounded and killed so the WAK, I don’t know we gotta work on our acronyms, there’s so many of them I don’t know. Interviewer: “So you never saw any of the actual fighting, no one ever attacked the command element?” �Rowland, Daniel Well you could hear and when you went outside you could see cause a lot of it was at night you could see the, like the artillery, the LAV, the tanks. So the fire fights and stuff because we were just on the other side of– There’s a river that runs by the bridges and we were on the back end of it and we could kind of see down you could like see it all going on. So not the same as being obviously in it so I can’t make any grandiose claims like that but anyway after that then we moved on. We ended up in some old Iraqi air base by Al Kut, hung out there for a couple months after the invasion ended, sweat a lot because the desert’s hot in the summer. Interviewer: “I had no idea.” Really? You learn something new everyday. Interviewer: “Exactly.” And then came home. (20:33) Interviewer: “So during the actual fighting I’m assuming you weren’t working on security clearances and that sort of thing.” No I mean most of it there, most of my job at the end of the day was just making sure the area was secure, people that came and went had clearances, we didn’t actually process– clearances were for the rear, you showed up you either had it or you didn’t so it’s nothing amazing. Though I did get to see how things happened at a command level, you know it was like the fly on the wall I just like walk in the tent and see everybody doing their jobs like the three shop who is operations and then all the other guys are like “Oh we need this, we need that, tell them to do this.” You know like you see war movies and you just see the soldiers are out fighting but you know actually seeing the puppet masters I guess you’d call them, cause you know if you’re the down on the front line fighting, you know you just go where you’re told, but seeing how they make those decisions at the higher level I guess was pretty good for an experience level. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Did you ever have any issues with officers?” Who doesn’t? No, no not at that time really it was actually– Again the Marine Corps would end up being small again later on in my career but no at the time no. Well everybody’s so focused on the job at hand which is, you know war which is kind of why we exist then, you know personal animosities between each other. Though there was one captain, he was the general’s aide to camp and he was kind of a douchebag. Interviewer: “What did he do?” No he was just a dick. Interviewer: “Oh, fair enough.” Well because you know here’s the general making all the decisions and this is basically his lackey, carry my briefcase and crap. (22:05) So he had nothing else to do but harass us, there was me, the general’s terp and his driver and we assumed he was crap for no reason. He’s like “Oh, you know you need a haircut.” And I’m like– Right, right. Interviewer: “We are at war.” There are some people, no matter what you’re doing, that want to stick to military protocol like it’s gonna be the end of the world if you don’t. Interviewer: “Got it.” I mean we’re talking about a guy– So like we’re in a town trying to take it over and stuff and he would find some Iraqi out in town to like, press his camis and pay them like a couple bucks. Interviewer: “Wow.” �Rowland, Daniel Yeah, this– Don’t get me started on it there’s just some people that are like, what? I mean we were in MOP gear for like over a month, the– I forgot the actual acronym, the biological weapon cause we were still “Oh he’s got a WMD.” You know so we had on this mop gear for over 30 days, no– I mean we were invading, no showers no– You know baby wipes became our friends. So we were pretty nasty so like I didn’t get a haircut, really? But anyway that’s– He annoyed me but that was about it. Interviewer: “So when you were over in Iraq, other than the administrative work, you know what did you do after the invasion?” We sat around for– Cause the invasion was late March, early April and we were there till like the beginning of July, end of June and we just sat there, that was it. I mean you’re not– I mean because they’re still having to figure out what they’re gonna do with the country and we’re just like– We’re hanging out and doing nothing, played lots of spades. (23:48) Interviewer: “After that what happened, when did you leave?” We got back on the ships– See they went over in December on the ships and then I, like I said, I flew over mid deployment and then we had to take the ships back so that was fun, but I got on the boat and took the longest shower of my life, maybe, but it was nice and then we got to float home. Yeah, stopped in Lisbon on the way, that was fun. Interviewer: “What ship were you on?” The– Was it the Nassau? Yeah I think it was the Nassau, we had the Nassau, the Kearsarge, and I forget the third ship in our little fleet but it was a hootenanny. Got to go through the Suez canal and man the guns, hey we’re jarheads what else we got to do right? Interviewer: “I’m assuming nothing tried to attack you.” �Rowland, Daniel No, that’s standard protocol when you’re going through the canals and the stuff is to man the guns on the side. So whatever but got to go past the rocket gibraltar, that was fun looking, I guess that you– There’s– I mean you know you’re Navy, all the little weird things like the shell back or if you cross the equator and this, we got one for going through the city waters and ooh. Interviewer: “So the military traditions where they kind of haze you and you get a little reward afterwards.” Not for that one, you just got it for going through the Suez and the Med, yeah I’ve heard of some of the things they do and sea bats and all that, we’ll leave that for you to explain for the people to hear. Interviewer: “Shell backs a whole different beast.” No you never heard of the– “Hey we got a sea bat under that container.” And then you go– Never mind. (25:24) Interviewer: “Yeah the old, the hazing techniques to make you go just waste your time.” [overlapping chatter] Hundred yards of flight line I got. Interviewer: “Go wait for the mail buey, that sort of thing.” Hey, get me some blinker fluid. No? Okay, keys in the humvee. Interviewer: “So the Navy was kind of messing with you guys a little bit.” Well– But that was it though and man I tell you what the Navy cooks are actually pretty good, I don’t know. Well compared to eating MREs for three months I guess anything was good. Interviewer: “So after–” �Rowland, Daniel And so I get back and, you know that’s it for– So by then I’m married, got a kid on the way, and I’m still on involuntary order so I’m like “Well, I should probably go.” Cause by this time I had almost seven years and I’m like “Oh maybe I should go back to active duty.” and that took a year cause recruiters suck. Interviewer: “So where were you at for this year? Were you just–” I was– No I was still recalled reservist back at my old job at Camp Lejeune and that’s when I got my Navy achievement medal and all the other crap for a job I didn’t even know what I did and they give them out like candy so like “Oh hey everybody gets one” unless you’re infantry, then you don’t get anything. So then I try to come back in, takes them a year, I tried going officer too, that didn’t pan out I don’t know. So apparently– Well whatever, so then I go back then they let me back in in June of 2004 and I tried going back in as an intelligence analyst because I’m like I’ve already got the clearance. (26:57) I mean I kinda needed high clearance for my old job and then I figured– They made me retake the ASVAB and scored perfect and I’m like “Oh okay, I can get in, this is no problem.” They’re like “Oh, we want you back in but only as infantry.” I’m like “What?” “It’s the only thing we have open.” So of course I took it cause I got a kid on the way, I’m marrying, and I gotta provide for my family and then I come to find out later there was still like openings for the intelligence. Apparently recruiters even treat Marines like 17 year olds and just meet their quotas, I don’t know but I’m still a little bitter about that. Interviewer: “That’s understandable. So when–” I had two college degrees and a 99 on the ASVAB and a top secret clearance, I was like “Why couldn’t I get the job?” Anyway. Interviewer: “That is a bit on the ridiculous side.” So I guess I went in as one of the smaller grunts, that was– Yeah June of 2004, I got to my unit in August of 2004 2nd Battalion, 6th Marines, 2nd Marine division blah blah and then they stuck �Rowland, Daniel me in weapons company. I was going to become an anti armor assault man, 0352 basically we shoot rockets at tank and at that time they told me “Oh they just got rid of on the job training.” Which means you could like work work with a unit for six months and get your new job designation. “So you have to go back to training.” So I’m a sergeant with seven years in and they sent me to basically back to combat training with a fricken 18 and 18 year old privates. Interviewer: “That sounds fun.” Oh it was hootenanny, it wasn’t really that bad there were two corporals over there too and the instructors pretty much let us like not do all the dumb crap. Interviewer: “They knew you knew essentially.” Well considering I outanked most of my instructors I was like, okay you know– Like you know like no cell phones or no smoking for the privates but then we go hang out with the instructors behind the buildings and call our wives and smoke cigarettes cause if it wasn’t anything essential, like especially the first three weeks were basically a rehash of combat training and then the last four weeks you break up into your specific jobs, they train all the infantry there. (29:05) So we just went to class and then graduated and went back to our units, it was still fun though, and that’s when I found out I lost all my time in grade as a sergeant. Yeah I was promoted June 2003 to sergeant, was it? No, 2002 and then when I came back to active duty they reset my date of rank, which being in the military one of the important parts of getting promoted was time in grade. So you have to be a certain rank so long before you’re even eligible for the next rank, so I lost like two and half years' time in grade, that was fun. Interviewer: “And you couldn’t fight that at all?” No, even though I was involuntarily activated, that comes in later, this is a big whine fest I think. So I graduate in October ‘04, go to my unit and then the next– What was it? Yeah it was the next October, October ‘05 but in that time they send me to sergeants course, some counter terroism course, all these frickin courses cause apparently they thought I was smart or something, and �Rowland, Daniel then October ‘05 we head over to Fallujah, Iraq this was after the push through I think it was Phantom Fury is what is was called. We’re the first unit to take over the area after the push through, and at the time I’m like “Oh, I’m gonna be a platoon sergeant.” Because you know I’m a sergeant and then they’re like “Nope, you’re going to headquarters company.” “What?” And then they stick me in an entry control point in the middle of Fallujah, basically the city was– I don’t want to say quarantined or blockade, but to get in the city you had to go through one of six checkpoints, you know they had to search you, we had a little vehicle. All these, you know kind of like the TSA but you know not as stupid, so I got stuck there for the deployment. Nothing too exciting, I had a little satellite outpost where we did commercial traffic, semis and crap, we got into a fire fight a couple of times because we’re like right on the main highway and right behind us was like this big gully, I don’t even know. So somebody could just like walk into the city through it if they were somewhat evasive and they’d walk up and take pot shots at us and that was not as exciting as it sounds cause you’re on– We did 24 on, 24 off so you’d be bored most of the time “Ooh search the– Search the big truck full of stones!” We had the long like rebars we had to stick in their and we’re looking for bombs or something, I don’t know, and then pretty quiet till March of ‘06. (31:37) Then our main checkpoint got blown up from one of those orange dump trucks, google it you’ll see them, and somebody decided to blow it up and we only lost one Marine and a couple of Iraqi guys because we had the Iraqi army and police working with us too, about 30 wounded because the concrete barriers they like to use like to turn into microscopic shrapnel, once you have you know a couple thousands of pounds of explosives go off next to it. So then a couple days all the guys would have the fragments in them from the explosion, started becoming sick their body was rejecting it, but since I was at the little satellite outposts I went over– Cause the explosion was– So we were 600 yards from them and it knocked me on my ass, that’s how big the explosion was and then I got to go over there with some of the Iraqi guys and it was just like the little building, everything was just knocked the hell down but most of the– And I don’t– Did they over teach you OPSEC? I assume they teach you OPSEC when you’re in, you know like if you travel change your routes and stuff. Well our brilliant bosses every day at the same time was the changeover, when the one team would come out and go off so after six months of doing the same thing every day they knew when to hit us. So needless to say it was kind of– And I pointed this out months before but you know I was just an E5 what did I know? It’s not like seven years being in a security office going to, you know, the naval criminal �Rowland, Daniel investigation security managers course, the DSS security managers course, I got certificates a mile long but no, I didn’t know nothing. Being a security manager for the invasion for a general, no what did I know cause– I’m gonna try, you know those clover leaves when you get on the highway, they like wrap around, we were like right in the middle of one so when somebody hits the on ramp they can look down and it was just– This is something a frickin moron should be able to look at and be like “That doesn’t seem that secure with the on ramp open.” So whatever, so I started building an animosity towards officers, more so after that because you know when they don’t listen it’s like “Really?” But anyways that’s besides the point, and that was the first time I lost somebody under my command so– Cause technically I was second in charge of that unit, I had an E7 and then me and then we had like 15 guys under us or whatever so still a little haunted by that, anyway [unintelligible] Interviewer: “So stepping back a little bit when it comes to working with the Iraqi police and–” Yeah they were pretty good, nothing weird about them just dudes trying to make a living. Interviewer: “You didn’t worry at all that they might be with any of these groups?” (34:28) Not at that time, cause we’re talking a couple years after– They, I guess the local government they had a pretty good way of vetting you know I mean I never had a problem with them. Hell usually when we closed down the post we’d go– Cause we had a little trailer and these guys, I don’t know if you ever saw the big shipping containers, they would basically– They built bunk beds and stuff in there for them because those guys were out there for like a month, they weren’t– Like after 24 hours we go back to our little base, have our nice little beds and these poor guys are out there but we’d go in there and we’d smoke hookahs with them and have some tea, play cards, whatever you know just dudes. They were some– Well let’s just say they loved cellphones too because they would show some nasty– They’re just red blooded dudes like anybody else man, they were just trying to make a living to support their families. So for the most part, no I never had to worry about them, plus yeah I’d also gone through an Arabic course �Rowland, Daniel I can even speak the conversational toddler so that was fun too. That’s the way I look at it, I was never that great at it. Interviewer: “Did any of the guys under your command have any issues with them like pick fights with them or anything?” No, I think initially some guys were worried but after a month or two you find out they’re just regular guys and there’s nothing bad about them. Which is I guess counterintuitive from what people have been told but like a lot of guys that would even put the bombs on the side of the road it’s not like they were fundamentalist terrorists, someone’s like “Hey, here’s a couple hundred dollars go put this–” But this is the point where they were stop setting them off themselves, it was the ones where, well the full term would be victim actuated improvised explosive devices, pretty much like imagine a pressure plate and when you drove over it it would complete the circuit and blow up. So some of these guys would go and just set them up and the ones that we would caught they’re not terrorist or anything they’re just like “Oh hey someone paid me X amount of dollars to do this.” (36:22) Interviewer: “And what would– Did you ever catch any of these guys yourself?” Well I mean we didn’t other like units, we were pretty stationary so we weren’t even mobile but from what I heard a lot of the ones they did catch in the act they were just doing it cause they were paid, because you know that– During that period of time you know that was before the full rebuilding effort, it was hard man I could imagine a guy “Hey I need to get food for my family.” Here a dude “Here’s some money man go put this over by the road.” “Okay.” So it’s– I wish it was as clean cut as that, oh here’s a bad guy shoot him, but is he a bad guy or just someone down on his luck, I don’t know. It’s very– It’s always a lot more complicated than people make it out to be in the media, but anyway but at the end of that then we came home in April of ‘06 and we did what Marines do, you know run a lot, train a lot, and get ready to go back over the next year so then we went back in October– I’m sorry April of ‘07. That was the standard fair, go for seven, eight months, come home for eight or nine and then go back over but eight or nine at �Rowland, Daniel home wasn’t– You weren’t home, we had to go to California for a month or two, then we had to go to Virginia, all this training, go in the field every other week it seemed like, train train train. Interviewer: “Now going back to the orange dump truck, did you guys– Did that at least spark some change?” Not really. Interviewer: “Like did you guys move the security point at that point, better off site?” No they had it rebuilt within 24 hours, they closed the on ramp, that was it. We were gone within a month so nobody seemed to care. Interviewer: “Okay, and–” The prevailing attitude is if you’re a lower rank you’re expendable, I mean that’s the– (38:08) Let’s call it what it is, your job is to die for the cause and if you do they’ll just “Hey, we got guys back at the base we’ll just fill in the roster.” Cause that’s all they did, when everybody got his I think four or five of us out of 30 people between the two crews, like three or four of us stayed out there and they just replaced them with a bunch of other dudes, it was like we didn’t miss a beat, you know can’t stop operations man, mission accomplishment and all that crap. So yeah they closed down the ramp, engineers rebuilt the place in like a couple of hours and hey we’re up and running again. Military efficiency, whooo! I mean that’s just the way it works man, which I understand but then it seems like the lack of– I understand that you have to do what you have to do, I get that but then it seems like even afterwards when you do have time to breathe, no one else really seems to give a crap, is that? Now obviously in old school conventional wars when you had to push through, push through yeah you didn’t have time and I get that but like what we were doing, out of seven months you know six and a half of it was pretty damn boring. So needless to say we– You know but there’s always downtime especially when we’re home within a month it’s like, okay thanks for not giving a shit. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So, you went home, you did your year of training.” Yeah and then we went back, this time I actually was a platoon sergeant and I got my own 24 guys, six we were a mobile assault platoon, five gun trucks in a high back, basically a pickup truck with big walls and we got to travel around and try to find interesting people and shoot them. So that was a hoot but things are really quieted down by that compared to the last time, I think the first time I was in Fallujah everything was blowing up and there were roadside bombs like every five feet it seemed like but the second time it was actually pretty quiet. Interviewer: “Were you again near Fallujah?” We were in the same exact spot. Interviewer: “Same on ramp and everything?” (40:10) Well no that was entry control point, this time I was actually with the weapons company with an actual mobile assault platoon but I mean we were on the same forward operating base, some of us were sleeping in the same beds we were a year before. We were exactly back, the only difference was the first time we were there the city was like divided up into three areas and all these different units had a different area of responsibility. When we went back we had the whole city to ourselves, it had calmed down that much, so we’re like “Okay” and for the most part, like I think the first time we were there we lost ten or 12 guys maybe, there was actually a sniper out there in January too when we were there, he killed a couple guys, mostly Iraqi police, Iraqi army. I think we lost a couple guys and so we had– So we lost about ten to 15 guys and I think we had about 20 wounded, the second time we were there I think we lost two, maybe three, but one of them was a– We were there like not even a week and some engineer that had been attached to our unit, new guy, went to a porta chuter and offed himself. Interviewer: “Jeez.” �Rowland, Daniel Not– And then another one some dude was driving down the road really fast and his humvee hit a dune and the guy got thrown out the back and killed, so two of our KIAs were through accidents or self-inflicted injuries. So I guess you don’t count those when you’re talking killed in action which is normally enemies but this time no. Interviewer: “I mean it’s still people dying.” I understand the sympathy from regular but when you’re in that scenario it’s like– Well one died cause they were stupid like don’t speed in your humvee down the road, you know so he was a casualty of stupid and the other was, you know I guess he got there and he couldn’t hack it, we had only been there a week. So is it sad? Yes but can I feel sympathy towards him? Not really, I mean if you don’t want to go I understand that but like we had guys that were more creative, they were like self inflicting injuries before we left like dropping weights on their feet and breaking their feet. Oh that’s fine, then you get charged for malingering but still you don’t have to go. Interviewer: “I mean–” (42:22) I’m just saying if you don’t want to go to Iraq there’s things you can do before we even leave where you’re not offing yourself, I’m just saying callous but when you’ve been over the multiple times and you’ve seen your friends die from enemy action and crap, it’s hard to feel sympathy for other people, like you knew what you were getting into when you signed up especially in 2007, 2008 I mean we’d already been at war for like six, seven years it’s like if you signed the dotted line and didn’t think you were going why’d you sing up? It’s not like they were drafted it was still all volunteer force, it sounds cold but given the circumstances you probably know what you’re getting into, and besides he was like a– He was a motor team mechanic or an engineer it’s not like they ever left the base, again not trying to be a dick but you know from my perspective it’s like oh I gotta go out into town two, three times a day and potentially get shot at and you’re sitting here, you know on the base really not doing anything, and by then we had a nice chow hall, I mean like salad bar, sandwich bar nice even brought in the guys from Indy to work it for us, it was pretty swank. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So when you were going out and, you know as you said it, searching for interesting people to meet and shoot did you have a lot of action?” Not as much as one would think but it seemed the other units–Or the other platoons always got the fun stuff, hell it was our first week, we got there and then we ripped with the unit we were replacing which is like ride along, riding along, basically like they go out and then like your leaders will ride with them and then you’ll slowly phase in your guys and replace theirs. I think it was about the second week we’re driving down the road and we get called to go to an incident and somebody had been driving on the road, some idiot and I use these terms with endearment, had an accident in the convoy and wandered off onto a dirt road and gotten belly shotted. By this time the insurgent tactics had moved to burying IEDs in the road so, you know general protocol was don’t drive down dirt roads. Well somebody did and belly shotted a humvee and we got to go clean it up. Interviewer: “By that you mean they drove over it and the bomb went off under?” (44:47) Yeah the– If I was– Me standing in the blast like my head stuck up, I don’t know if they buried it that deep or it was the explosion cause I mean I don’t even know what ammunition they used we were just there for clean up. So most time you think the 155 shells or whatever, you know where the charge could blow up but this could’ve been one the blew up and down and made the hole deeper, I don’t know, but yeah we got to pick up a couple guys in ziploc bags, take them to the main base morgue, and I think half of our guys were like new, so we kind of like left them over the road while we collected things and them brought them back but like it was– It was just sloppy, it always seemed– Cause as a mobile assault platoon we were more– We were too fast for like them to just sit down and ambushes, that’d be more for like the foot patrols. We were more reactionary so we always showed up when things were going on or just finished that was kind of our job, or to project a military presence. Interviewer: “Basically you would go around.” �Rowland, Daniel Is that the correct term that they use, or projecting force, I don’t know. So and then another time, this one’s funny, we had a– There was a big intersection of Fallujah and the Iraqi police, I don’t even like know stoplights, they made like this little plywood– I’m trying to think of what you– You know just imagine like a little plywood like tool booth if you would, a little bigger with a roof on it and surrounded by sandbags and you know they’re out there directing traffic or whatever and somebody takes– I guess sidestep, our commander, the battalion commander, they basically more effectively cinched off the city to prevent you know ammunition and bombs coming in. So– And it worked because eventually the insurgents in the city started making their own, it was some yellow powder I don’t remember, but anyway this little bongo truck– It looks like a roller skate, just google bongo truck and you’ll see they’re ridiculously small, this thing was loaded with barrels of this explosive and he’s rolling down the road, runs into this Iraqi police post and detonates. Now the one thing apparently insurgents can’t do is make their own explosives, so the stuff in the cab went off, nothing else did. So he hits this little post of these guys, I think one dude ended up breaking his leg just from the force of the impact but that was it. (47:23) We get called up and we gotta cordon off the area and secure it, cause you know it’s still explosive, so we’re just sitting there looking at this little blue bongo truck and inside the cab it’s just messy because the guy managed to blow himself up and it’s just, you know guts and gore over the– All over the windows and of course we found it hilarious, it’s like if you’re gonna die for the cause fine but you know i expect you want to take more than just yourself with you. Of course the downside is all this stuff spilled over the road, we had to wait for explosives ordnance guys to come out and clean it up and I think we spent like 12 hours out there it was so boring. One time like a dog runs by and runs away with a guy’s hand and yeah go ahead and laugh it was– Now at this point you’re in country a few months, you’re just bored, you’re just laughing so hard cause they open the door to try to, you know check the detonation device and all that other stuff and it’s– So yeah we had fun too. Interviewer: “Were you still on pretty good terms with the Iraqi police and military there?” Yeah I mean they were– Well I mean the police are from the area, the Iraqi army would normally be from a different part of the country cause I guess you’d look at it like– If you think back to the �Rowland, Daniel Civil War they’d have like, you know the Michigan whatever unit, they’re all from the same town wherever, and that’s the way the Iraqi army was. So– And they would bring in guys from a different part of the country because they didn’t know anyone locally but the Iraqi police were local. Yeah they were pretty good guys, no problems there I mean– Interviewer: “What about the civilians?” You know what they’re just people trying to live their lives man, for the most part they just did what they did and we just went around. I mean it comes to this, if you weren’t dicks to them or you weren’t, you know if you weren’t overly– If you just treat them like people you got along fine, you know there’s a lot of– I’m sure we’ve all heard stories of the military that were over there and like being over dickish, I don’t know if it was just because the Middle Easterners in general were dehumanized or because they were just– I mean I don’t know but no they were just regular people. Hell we would normally stop for– Grab lunch from a little place down on– I mean we name the streets after like– I mean you can’t pronounce Iraqi but like north to south– Yeah north to south had female names and east to west had male names but like the main drag was called [sounds like “Frayen”] and there’s a little guy running a kebab shop there and we’d pop in and get some lunch every couple of days whenever we’re around. (50:03) He was a nice guy, give him money, we get food and it was pretty good food, jeez wonder if there’s any good kebab shops around here, anyway– Hey man. Interviewer: “Now you’ve got me wanting kebabs.” I know right cause, you know what cause the stuff was fresh like right next door was an actual butcher’s shop. I mean all our stuff is processed as hell, and here you are, you know you pull up to the kebab shop, you hear the cows and goats mooing next door like okay I guess it’s fresh. Interviewer: “So you didn’t ever really worry that one of these guys is gonna attack you or anything?” �Rowland, Daniel It comes down to two mindsets, you can either– If you’re gonna worry about it you’re gonna worry all the time and you’re just gonna go crazy or you’re gonna be so hyper tense all the time you’ll snap, or you’re just like if it happens it happens, you know if you’re comfortable in your training– I mean they call it muscle memory when you do something enough but it also applies to other things like if you hear a gunshot or you hear an explosion you should instinctively know how to react and if you trust that training, then you just don’t worry about it. I mean you’re worried but you’re not– You know, otherwise you’re that paranoid guy who thinks the FBI is listening to his thoughts through the, you know dentures in his mouth and that’s not a good way to go or you’re– It’s gonna be a long ass seven months, he just eventually if it happens it happens. Interviewer: “Were you guys ever ambushed?” Directly no, I mean we had a couple IEDs once, nothing huge like I hit one and blew out the tire I think was unconscious a couple minutes but by then we had the new humvees like the doors were like thicker and all this crap. So it like scratched the paint cause it was– Because it was where we were driving on the main street and we would like go down to one end of the city and come back, it really wasn’t that big but we went down and by the time we came back apparently somebody put it there. (52:00) I mean it wasn’t like hey cause we drove and then we turned around and came back driving the same path that we did and then drove over it and it blew. So it’s like somebody– It’s like when you’re watching T.V and somebody throws out those little spike strips that the cops do, that’s how quick he must have done it because it was right next to an open field. So the guy must have sprinted out– After we drove by the first time must have sprinted out, dropped it, ran back, I don’t know it was weird. Interviewer: “And no one got injured in that cause of the–” No, we blew like two or three tires on the humvee but we just pulled into one of our little bases, swapped them out, and on our way again. Nice and quick, nice and painless, that deployment was actually pretty laid back except for, you know stupid lieutenants but, you know. Oh my lieutenant was an idiot, oh I know I have to explain it. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “Yeah– I mean you don’t have to but–” He’s the kind of guy– Like we go out and do two or three patrols a day, and he would “Okay” show up 45 minutes early to our staging area and then he pulled out the map and he’d be pointing “This is the route–” We would get objectives, like “Oh, we want you to check this spot, this spot, this spot by the command– By the head shed.” And then he would map out all the directions and we’re like “Why don’t we just go as long as we make all our checkpoint?” And he started like “Oh let’s drive down this road, this road.” “Those are dirt roads.” You know hey didn’t we first learn this lesson when we got in the country, and then– So I was the kind of guy I would tell my lead truck guy like– Cause all of my vehicle commanders had been there before, this like I said this is their second time in Fallujah and I’m like “Yeah just as long as we’re making the checkpoints drive however you want to get there.” That created a lot of tension between me and the lieutenant, I didn’t give a crap because I don’t want to get belly shotted. We saw how this works, so screw him, and he was one of the pretentious assholes, pardon my language. Interviewer: “Did he try to get back at you for this?” (53:57) Oh yeah I mean they always do that, you know you get in trouble for– I don’t know about this, you get in trouble or you do something they don’t agree with but it’s not against the rules so then they make up some shit to get back at you later. I mean nothing bad like I didn’t get a bad fitness report or anything but yeah he was one of those guys. He graduated from one of those prestigious schools and he didn’t– Whatever, I don’t care, he was a dick. So he– Yeah that created a lot of crap between me and him but I didn’t care, all my guys made it home, I mean I think the worst thing to happen to one of our guys is he got appendicitis, whoop-dee-doo, but then you always have the commanders and like we had a 1st sergeant that was really bored. I love this rule, so we lived in this old– It’s called Camp Baharia, it was an old bath party luxury resort it had like man made lakes in it and stuff. Apparently Saddam used to have like race boat– Or speed boat races and crap so all these little huts and stuff and you know after the war all the Iraqi siblings came and like stole it all like the plumbing, the windows, all this crap. So we just have these shells of �Rowland, Daniel buildings and they have the porta crappers across the road from where we live and our 1st sergeant’s like “Don’t leave your little house unless you’re at least in PT gear!” So one day one of my guys he woke up, goes to the bathroom, he's just in his shorts, and he got a page 11 for doing that. Interviewer: “Page 11 is?” Basically a reprimand in your file, so yeah cause he woke up and had to pee he got in trouble for not putting a shirt on to go across the street in the middle of summer, in 130 degree weather, yeah I know right. Interviewer: “Seems legit.” These are people that, again goes back to the kind of person, I got– Cause everything we did was at a platoon level or lower so the company staff, they got really bored and they would do stuff like enforce stupid ass rules. Alright maybe not– It– Whatever I think they’re stupid “Hey we’re in a war zone! Don’t forget to put your shirt on.” Cause you gotta go to the bathroom (56:15) Interviewer: “So pretty much nothing really that eventful happened at that point.” Nothing, nothing exciting, or at least not to us I mean other of our platoons they’ll get into firefights. I guess one time they were driving– One guy– One unit was driving down a road and they have a– Fallujah’s got like a little industrial section in the southeast like all warehouses and stuff, they were driving down there some guys come out of a building wearing suicide vests and they were looking at each other and then our guys just turned their guns and started shooting at them, see we missed all the fun stuff, I don’t know. Interviewer: “That’s–” Alright it’s not fun in general but when you’re in an armored vehicle and somebody’s shooting at you with AK-47s and is still far enough where the suicide vests won’t actually do anyhting and �Rowland, Daniel all you have to do is rotate your 50 caliber machine gun down the alley and fire. I mean 50 caliber bullets are pretty– They’re lethal for like, you know small armored vehicles let alone people, there’s not much left of you. So you always hear those stories and you’re like “Why wasn’t I there?” Interviewer: “So when did you leave?” We left October of ‘07, got back and then that was pretty much the highlight of my career. I reenlisted a couple months later and my choices were I could stay with the unit and get a $20,000 bonus or I could pick my own duty station. Well my dumbass picked the– My own duty station cause who needs 20 grand? Well also the mentality of I’ve been over three times and managed to still be alive, I don’t want to push my luck. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” Plus at that point my son was about four or five and I basically missed half his life, like when we got back my third time I went to pick him up and he was crying because he didn’t know who the hell I was, that’s depressing. (58:07) So I’m like “Yeah I’ll stay stateside for a while.” And then I ended up being– Where the hell was it? Camp Johnson which is kind of a weird cyclical thing, that was the base I went to originally to learn to be an administrative clerk. Interviewer: “Where was that at?” It’s like right next to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, there’s like Camp Lejeune and then there’s Camp Johnson, Camp Geiger, the air station. Camp Geiger is where they train the infantry, Camp Johnson’s where they teach the mechanics, the administrative clerks, the financial clerks, and the box kickers– Warehouse guys, their school’s two week it’s like “Why are you even here?” So I basically ended back up where I started and the only jobs there for grunts were sergeant of the guard, basically before a Marine goes into job training if there’s not a class starting they stick them in a barracks and make them little crap jobs like, you know like “Oh hey go help the maintenance guys.” Or go to– Well we got 40 guys to stand around and tell �Rowland, Daniel the Marines their shirts are tucked in, it was pretty mindless but I was fine with that because I didn’t– I wanted mindless I wanted to be home and, pretty much not that exciting, I just sat around with a bunch of other– Of course the problem was is the mentality, there were like seven of us there, there were guys from 1st Battalion 6th Marines, 3rd Battalion and me and we’d all– We’d actually all been in Iraq together, all of our units around, so our mentality was different than a bunch of guys learning to be, you know accountants. So needless to say there were multiple classes, though my first year there was probably my greatest year in the Marine Corps. My immediate– My commanding officer was a guy I had served with during the invasion, so again back to the small world. So yeah I got to basically get away with murder and I’m not saying I did anything wrong but we had pretty lax guidelines at this point. When guys you had served with in combat are your bosses, but it was all– Our sergeant major was about the top enlisted guy, was actually with 3-6, he was like 5”1, his actual last name was Meanie, he was single and he rode a Harley. Yes, everything you can imagine, he would have like an NCO call for all the corporals and sergeants and he would be like “Well first two kegs are on me.” You know the kind of senior enlisted guy that you only hear of in like fantasies and like I think he was within six months. We were at a physical training thing and some 1st sergeant pissed him off so he laid him out. (1:00:52) Interviewer: “Like hit him?” Yeah, from what I hear, and then he got transferred to a deploying unit which I think in hindsight is what he wanted, I mean he was those kind of guy he could– You could like just drop him off in Iraq and he would live there because he’s that kind of guy, but yeah but once those guys started leaving then we got the pricks and that’s essentially where my career ended because I couldn’t get promoted to staff sergeant. In the Marine Corps if you don’t make E6 by 13 you’re out so. Interviewer: “Okay so you were forcibly discharged.” I was– I was unable to reenlist, but and then that goes back to when they took my two and half, three years time in grade because as an infantry Marine you normally had to be in a sergeant for �Rowland, Daniel two or three years before you’re even eligible for promotion and by the time– So that was ‘04 so I was, I think it was in the– In the Marine Corps you have Marines in the zone, below zone and above zone so like they need a hundred dudes, they’ll put 200 guys in the zone, and that’s all based on how long you’ve been and E5 and I think my first year I was in the below zone. That’s basically like “Oh we can’t find enough good guys we’ll go down here and look.” So by the time I was– And that just happened to coincide with the downsizing, they were gonna cut 20 or 30,000 Marines. They were promoting 400 Marines in my job a year, the year I was finally eligible they cut it down to 90, it was like– So that along with my lost time in grade, you know I should’ve been eligible for promotion two years earlier but now it was like, it was just a cluster fudge and it kind of– Came to and end, which I was fine with because I was unable to reenlist through no fault of my own, they gave me a nice severance package which was fun. I mean if you’re gonna get out– Interviewer: “You might as well get a severance from it right?” Yeah but at the end of the day I, at that point I think I had 15 years in, a year and half later they offered 15 year retirements. Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” (1:02:55) Oh I know right, but anyway that was pretty much the bulk of it. Interviewer: “So that was your last duty station then you separated? What’d you do after?” Farted around a while, I bought a house in Jacksonville where Camp Lejeune is and of course in 2010, guess what happened in 2008. I went with downsizing, the housing market was just– So I couldn’t leave, it was so sad because living in a military town when you’re no longer in the military is like ehhh. Bummed around a while and then I finished my first master’s degree, I’d started when I was in Iraq the third time, I was bored and like “I’m going to school.” And then I don’t know, stuff just happened, I got sick of living there and then you learn the whole “It’s who �Rowland, Daniel you know” adage, like I would try to apply for the jobs on base and never seem to get them, but now it’s just me whining. Interviewer: “I mean the transition from civilian– Or military to civilian is hard.” Well in a military town like that the jobs paid crap because there’s always an overabundance of workers, military spouses and stuff so they can pay you less money because if you quit or you get fired they got ten more lined up in the back. So the jobs just sucks and any good jobs on base it’s who you knew, like one time there was an educational counselor job open at the base education center, you know I had a bachelor’s in counseling and a master’s in education, I didn’t get an interview. Things like that you know and after that I just gave up and eventually “Well let’s just pack it in and move.” So when my marriage started going south, my second one, I just grabbed my kid and moved back here to Michigan and said “Hey let’s go back to school again.” Cause they gave me an extra year free, G.I bill so nothing amazing. Interviewer: “And that’s what you’re doing now?” Yeah I’m going to school and running into people like you who ask me to do things like this, which isn’t bad I guess, taking worthless English classes. (1:04:50) Interviewer: “So nothing– The military didn’t really prepare you for the civilian life?” I’m– In the general context they do not, for me it– I mean this is gonna sound egotistical again but I didn’t need them too because I’d done four years and gotten out the first time, then I went back in, then when I got out the next time, you know– I think the best thing that prepared me for transition was still living in a military town and knowing how it is, and then by the time I get back up here it’s a totally different community like for one you know people around here actually like veterans. Well when you’re in a military town they’re like “Who cares you’re a veteran get the hell out of my face.” So no they put you through like a three day class when you get out “Here’s how you do a resume, this is how you do this, this is how–” You know there’s no– They give you information that you can find on your own they don’t actually– It’s like �Rowland, Daniel coming back from combat, they’re like “hey don’t beat your family members.” You know they don’t actually transition you from a combat scenario back to, you know peacetime or back to life back in the states, it’s done really poorly. Interviewer: “Was that hard for you?” Not for me but for everyone cause I mean having the– I think it was easier for me because my first time in Iraq I didn’t really see combat but I got enough of it to know what was going on so when I went back the second time I knew what to expect plus having, you know the self– Cause having like the degree in social work I already knew the generic psychological aspects, all this and that so I could help prep myself but it was just one of those weird things where what I already knew just happened to fit what I was going to do. It’s really weird how it all came together but I could also see at the same time that for the regular guys coming back that it wasn’t anything special, it wasn’t anything– It was one of those dichotomies it’s like you know come back if you’re feeling sad or whatever talk to somebody but yet at that time if you went and like saw a shrink your career is pretty much over. They’ve destigmatized a lot in the last five, ten years but at that time they’re telling you to do but everybody else knew if you did you’re pretty much done. (1:07:18) So, I don’t know, that’s where you see the transition of what it was like to what it is and I know– To my understanding it’s still not that great now but yeah from military to civilian life good luck with that. I mean they don’t really– They tell you a lot of things but they don’t actually tell you– Help you– Having the information and using that information in a meaningful manner are two different things, so it’s like you know you come back “Here, have a book. Get the hell out.” You know it’s like it’s not the same thing as actually helping someone transition. So once you get those discharge papers, you know go away, I don’t care anymore you are no longer under my command, get the F out I don’t care. So now you’re out there alone you’re like “Who do I go to?” You have to find out all this on your own, like nobody tells you that there’s veterans service officers, that you can go to the American legion, the VFW, the DAV and all these other accessible things. They may mention them in passing but they don’t actually tell you what they do, what they can offer, all this other stuff but whatever hey that’s just the military. Once you’re no longer able to die for your country they don’t give a crap. �Rowland, Daniel Interviewer: “So are you– Would you recommend the military to someone?” It depends on the person, what you want and what you’re willing to do. Interviewer: “How would you feel about your son joining the military?” I’d tell him to join the Air Force. Interviewer: “Fair enough.” If he joined the Marine Corps I’d smack him upside the head, like I was stupid you don’t need to be stupid, or if you could do it in a capacity which you can maximize your benefits but minimize your risks, I mean again that sounds kind of selfish or something but at the end of the day, you know I don’t want my kid signing up and going off to die, I mean I don’t think anybody does, but if he wants to join, get some job experience, some military expereince, and some money for college well that’s great but if that’s all you want out of it– Like don’t join and enlist in the Army as a soldier you know as an infantry. That’s the dumbest thing but some people like that and again that’s why I’m saying it depends on the person. (1:09:30) If somebody’s all gung ho I want to serve my nation and go to war well hot damn sign up, become infantry if that’s what you want but some people– And it’s the aptitude as well, some people just they could be the smartest person in the room but if they’re unable to listen to authority and keep their mouth shut, not a good choice but that’s just me. Interviewer: “Alright, that just about wraps us up, was there anything else you wanted to say?” No, I’m good. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RowlandD2291V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rowland, Daniel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-12 Title A name given to the resource Rowland, Daniel (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Daniel Rowland was born in 1975 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and decided to enroll in the Marine Corps after his third semester in college. In 1995 Rowland attended boot camp in San Diego, California where he acted as the guide to recruits, After basic training, Rowland was sent to Camp Pendleton to complete Marine combat training. After completing Marine combat training, Rowland was sent to job training in North Carolina where he received training to become an administrative clerk. Rowland then spent three and a half years stationed in Hawaii at Camp Smith working as an administrative clerk. During this time, Rowland would be sent for occasional brief missions in South Korea. While he was stationed in Hawaii, Rowland also received his associate’s degree in business and bachelor’s degree in social work. In 1998 Rowland returned home and left active duty, joining the individual ready reserves where he did occasional active duty. One of these active-duty missions was a mission to go to North Carolina in 200. Due to the events of 9/11, this resulted in Rowland being involuntarily activated for two years during which he worked in a security manager’s office as an administrative clerk. In 2003 Rowland was deployed to Iraq as part of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade as the assistant security manager. After returning from Iraq to the United States by boat, Rowland decided to return to active duty as an infantryman in 2004. In 2005 Rowland’s unit was sent to Fallujah, Iraq working in headquarters company, and in 2006 Rowland came home for a year before being sent back to Fallujah, Iraq for a third time. Rowland returned home to the United States in 2007 and was stationed at Camp Johnson as a sergeant of the guard before being forcibly discharged and going on to return to school and resume civilian life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3fb9dc861b208c21d8e159d5ae6dfde.mp4 1ff31cef629af557169d342c17ac568c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/89d7b7417ba408e4c3f66878ba638984.pdf b80bba299c885cf7ec9fb644535eb817 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Manager of Veterans Affairs, Kent County, MI Interviewee: Carrie Roy Length of Interview: 00:58:48 Background (1:07)           From Deer Lodge, Montana. Grew up there most of her life. Father worked at the state prison in the area. Her mother was a nurse at Warm Springs, a halfway house for the mentally impaired. While in high school, she ended up getting pregnant and having twin daughters. She still graduated with good marks. She got married straight out of high school; however this would not work out. She ended up being a single parent. After a while, she decided that Deer Lodge was just too small of a town for her, so she moved to Sheridan, Wyoming. She went to community college there, but was struggling to keep everything balanced. So she decided that the military would be a good option for her. She did not know much about the military except for what she saw in movies. She was always very athletic and thought she would be a good fit for military life. At first she wanted to be in the Marines. After discovering that she would have virtually no choice in the type of job she would receive, she then went to the Army recruiter next door. She took her ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery), a military aptitude test. The higher the score, the more job opportunities were available to you. She did pretty well and had about 30 jobs to choose from. She ended up choosing 63 Bravo, which was light wheel vehicle mechanic. She did not know anything about it, but being a single mom, she thought the training would come in handy later. Training (4:50)       Her first session of basic training was in Fort Jackson, South Carolina. She loved basic training. While she was in “reception”, when they do all the physicals, you get your clothes, etc. she and the others there were there for about two weeks, instead of the usual two days. So it got a little boring. She got a taste of how mean and aggressive the drill sergeants would be. When they were done with the reception, they were assigned to their training units. The physical aspect of the training started right away. When they got off the bus, they had their duffle bags, which weighed 40-50 lbs. and they had to carry them everywhere on their first day. �                She knew that they were going to break her down psychologically and felt she had a leg up compared to most of the others in the unit who were mostly 18-19, whereas she was 23. The gender balance to the group was about half and half. It was under President Clinton that integrated training was allowed, and she had joined in 1998. She thinks that they did this on purpose, because of the fact that basic training is for combat training, so it has people from all sorts of skills there: cooks, military intelligence, mechanics, etc. They were organized in training companies. She was in Charlie Company. The barracks were separated by gender, women on one side and men on the other. She learned right away that everything in the barracks had its place and that everything had to be in its place. It was very structured. Some people adjusted very well as they had planned on doing it for a long time. Others were not so prepared for joining the military. Once you are there, leaving was not an option. Wherever you go you had to have a “battle buddy” for safety reasons and accountability. For those who wanted out, they would have to do something to get them kicked out, or suffer from an injury, or even fake an injury. She remembers that there was one girl who had to leave, but all the others made it through the training. Fort Jackson is located near Columbia in South Carolina. The climate was very humid compared to Montana, but the hardest thing to get used to was the fire ants. They would get everywhere. She would also deal with cockroaches. She had never seen one in her life. Her basic training lasted 8 weeks. Each week you were learning a new combat skill. She learned map reading, weapons training, which was really fun, battle tactics, combat fighting. She was a hunter back in Montana, so it was not difficult adjusting to the M-16 rifle. When she finished her basic training she came out with as an expert on weapons training. She was proud of that accomplishment. While they trained, they would always train with their battle buddy. Her buddy was a 6’2” woman who was rather bulky, but Carrie was bound and determined. Unlike most, she really described training as fun. She said it brought to her a confidence she did not know she had and she learned how far she really could push herself. Advanced Training: (14:35)     She stayed in Fort Jackson for her AIT training, where she learned how to become a mechanic. She was there for 13 weeks. She excelled at her training there. She was called a “high speed” soldier and one of her drill sergeants in AIT suggested that she go to jump school, because that is what all good soldiers do. In AIT training, they started with very basic stuff. The first thing she trained with was a lawn mower engine, learning how engines work. She would eventually work on Humvees in the military. �     She would achieve the echelon level 2 of training, which was mid-level. They did not get into deep engine functions. She learned how to replace parts, trouble shoot if something goes wrong and other such things. She also learned how to read flow charts, as the military loves flow charts. She also did some “boom” training, which was taking vehicles that had been stuck in the mud and using a boom truck to get them out. It was really disgusting. During AIT, if you pass the second phase of training and you do really well, you can get a weekend pass. She got a hotel room with a group of her friends and got some beer and partied. Others did more than that but she stayed away from them because she did not want to get kicked out of the military because she liked it. It helped being the oldest because she was the only one who could buy beer. It also helped being older because others would come to her for advice. It gave her a kind of motherly instinct. Jump School: (20:05)  When she was finished with AIT, she was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia for jump school.  It was three weeks long, each consisting of its own lessons. First ground week, then tower week and then jump week.  The first week was great. You have to run everywhere, until 5pm.  Jump school is a specialty school so people were there from all parts of the US military system, with all sorts of different ranks and it did not matter.  Tower week was when she got injured. While she was on the swing line trainer, a 12ft high platform, she was practicing her PLF’s and she did not land correctly and fractured her right femur.  She does not know what happened because she had her PLF’s down by that point. At first she did not realize that anything was fractured or broken, she was going to walk it off.  After a day, she could not walk off the pain so she went to see somebody and they diagnosed her with tendonitis. So they put her on two-day profile, which means she was restricted from doing any physical activity.  After two days of not healing she went back to sick call. Finally after going through doctors they did take x-rays and did find out that she had a bone fracture.  That was the end of her jump school days and she was really bummed because she was one day away from jumping out of a real airplane and it never happened.  Her doctor wanted her to go home and recover for 30 days, but her sergeant would have none of it. Instead she was transferred from Bravo Company to Delta Company, where they sent all the injured and others who couldn’t hack it.  While she was there, she was told to clean the cracks in the sidewalk with a coat hanger. It was humiliating, but she had to do it anyway.  She would get to paint the silver wings new logo on their wall and she thought that was cool.  She was in Delta Company for 6 or 7 weeks, until her permanent duty station came in. Fort Hood, Texas (28:10) �          She was disappointed to find that she was stationed at Fort Hood, Texas. She had heard that it was one of the less desirable places to go in the military. Fort Hood is in central Texas, not really close to anything important. Before she was sent to Fort Hood, she went home for 10 days. She still wasn’t healed and was on crutches. She did not want to show up on crutches on her first day at Fort Hood, because people there would think she was weak. She probably did more damage than good by leaving her crutches behind. She thought she would heal while sleeping, but it did not work out so much. She ended up going to sick call 2 weeks after she got there and got crutches and another profile. Her motor pool sergeant was really cool, though not very happy about her injury. She could still do everything, just not to the extent that the others could, like lifting heavy objects. Her sergeant was willing to work with her through her injury and one day he let her work in the office and do clerical kinds of things. That’s what she did for the last few months she was there. After about a year at Fort Hood, and going back to the doctor’s to find out her fracture was not healing, they gave her a choice: they could either put pins in her hip and she could stay in the military, or she could leave. Post Duty (32:30)             Given that there was no war going on, she decided to leave. This was in 2000. When she was discharged, she was a little bummed because she loved the military. When she was in Fort Hood, she met her current husband. They had met, fell in love, some stuff happened and they broke up. While she was being discharged, he was sent to Korea. She went home to Montana and started a daycare center with a friend, but it was not really working out. For the year while she was in Montana after she got out, she never really forgot about him and had been keeping in touch with his mother. One day, she asked his mother to somehow help her get in touch with him. Coincidentally, he had returned from Korea the day before. They talked on the phone and he invited her to MI. Sparks flew! Eventually he would return to Fort Hood, stopping by Montana on the way and asked her to marry him. She said yes. After getting back to Fort Hood, he prepared a place for them, and two months later she was married. After he got out of the military, they all moved back to Michigan because that is where he was from. He got out January 2001. While in Michigan, she would work in voc rehab. And after taking another aptitude test, she enrolled at Cornerstone University got her degree in psychology. Everything that she needed for school was paid for by the government. �                 She would then do an internship at the Vet Center in Grand Rapids. It’s part of the VA that deals with veterans who have post-traumatic stress disorder. She interned for 6 months counseling for PTSD and group therapy. She did not have a master’s degree, so she could not work there permanently. While she did work there, she made connections with other people in the community, other veterans. She would meet Luke Carter who was the manager for the Good Will's Homeless Veteran Reintegration Program. They had a position open for a peer counselor and a housing coordinator. She left the Vet Center and worked at this place, making money, for about a year. It was one of her favorite jobs. She like the counseling aspect of it, but it did not pay very well. She would make connections with people at the Kent County Community Development and Housing Commission. She would apply for the job and would work with her connections to get the job. (39:30) She worked there for about 2 and half years. She learned a lot. When her current job became available, it would fit her like a glove. She applied and got the job. In her current job, she advises veterans and their widows on how to apply for and receive things like service connection pension, death pensions, VA benefits, answer questions, emergency needs assistance for veterans, etc. The biggest aspect of her job is to help veterans apply for their military benefits. There is no specific demographic. They are all ages, all races. Because of their training in boot camp it is really difficult for veterans to ask for help, but the environment that they have created lets them know it is ok to ask for help. She is relatively new to the job. She is in the process of growing the department to making it a one-stop shop for veterans. PTSD and traumatic brain injury are big things that she sees for people just coming out of the military. She would love to do this long term and believes that there is a lot that the public could learn about homeless veterans. Many of them are living with friends, and not necessarily under a bridge. Some are well educated, including one she met while working at the Vet Center, who had a Ph.D. They hit hard times, and need help to build them back up. For vets who aren’t homeless, people think they are very “drill sergeant” like. But they are just people, like the rest of us. All of the funding for the program she works at now comes out of county general funds. (50:30) She worries at the condition of the state and how that will impact the program she works at. But she thinks it’s one of those things that go in cycles. She hopes that the economy will improve. Her advice: don’t let fear hold you back for the opportunities that the military brings. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoyC0708V Title A name given to the resource Roy, Carrie (Interview outline and video) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roy, Carrie Description An account of the resource Carrie Roy was born in Montana in 1975. She joined the Army in 1998, looking to open up new opportunities for herself. She selected light vehicle maintenance as her specialization, and was sent to Fort Jackson, South Carolina, for training. She did very well in basic training and in her advanced training, and was offered a chance to go to jump school at Fort Benning, Georgia. While there, she broke her leg, but the injury was not diagnosed or treated very well, and was still causing problems for her when she was sent to her active duty assignment at Fort Hood, Texas, and she eventually left the service because of the injury. She then got married, moved to Michigan, and completed a degree in psychology, and quickly began working with veterans, and is currently Director of Veterans Affairs in Kent County, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f6917a984cc294fac31082834fc36cc.m4v 85be408bbc9ddf17c85dda0a4fb86201 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ffbdfdaa7ddf915552af81c51c3b9422.pdf fc1bde946499dcfbf38cde9dd0474c9a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Era Jan Roy (57:10) Introduction (00:23:26)    Jan was born in Holland, Michigan in 1941. After she graduated from high school at Holland Christian High School, she began working at the Holland Furnace Company for four years, before it went out of business. Her father was a machinist and her mother was a stay at home mom. Jan had three siblings, of which she is the oldest (01:03:23). Joining the Navy (01:25:26)    Jan wanted to join the Navy, so she went to Detroit for her physical and was told she was ten pounds over weight. She was sent home and a year later was finally received. She was inspired to join by her cousin, who served as a chaplain and was killed in a plane crash on his way to Washington D.C. to receive the Chaplain of the Year award (02:15:00). She was 22 years old and wanted to leave Holland. Training (02:42:15)     Jan was sent to Bainbridge, Maryland for boot camp. The training lasted ten weeks. The base was about an hour from New York City, and was not near any water (03:12:27). This was a women only training facility, and also hosted several different schools. Boot Camp (04:07:07)  Jan was older than most of the others in her company, so she adjusted well.  She completed boot camp without getting any demerits, which she attributes to one of her instructors that was from Detroit  She started basic training in 1963. (04:46:10)  Jan had around thirty women in her training company.  Her training consisted of education (military, Navy history), physical, drill and marching and swimming.  The physical portion was easy for her as well as the military discipline aspect (06:22:25). �   She had a mild recruit petty officer, E-6, and she was fortunate for an easy instructor. Most of the people who started the training, completed it. After finishing boot camp, Jan stayed at Bainbridge and began Yeoman A school, which was a clerical school (08:29:16). A – School (08:29:18)      Having worked for four years prior to joining the Navy, Jan had typing skills and decided to pursue that in the military. This school lasted between six to seven weeks, and included basic clerical and typing skills. During this training phase, she was granted liberty and had access to the local clubs and bars because she was over twenty one years of age. A-School was a pleasant experience for her (09:37:04) She met a radioman during this time that she still keeps in contact with today. First Duty Station (10:02:00)       Jan was stationed at Naval Station Newport, Rhode Island. She started out in the personnel office, but was borrowed by the legal office around 1964 to help type wills for the men going overseas to Vietnam (10:37:15). Jan did not have a car, so she took a bus into town. She enjoyed seeing the ocean, and made friends with a woman who lived in Cape Cod and went there during her liberty. Newport was a small town, but busy with activity because it was a home port for the Navy (12:41:09). Her job normally lasted from 0800 to 1600 (8am- 4pm) everyday; she was bored with her job and was glad to switch to legal, which required her to attend Naval Justice School at Naval Station Newport (13:48:06). Justice School (14:12:19)     Jan’s class had 72 people, many of which were senior to her in rank and they thought she was not ready for the challenge. She graduated 6th in her class. She was then a certified closed microphone court reporter, who records court hearings and trials and then later transcribes them on paper. The class taught the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Around 1965-66, she was working as a legal aide and dealt with illegal movements from ships, unauthorized absence, and reported at their court martials (16:57:23). Working as a Courtroom Reporter (17:01:26)  One case she remembers well, involved a conscientious objector, who was holed up in a church basement, which required the F.B.I to go in and get him out. He was sentenced to �       three months confinement and busted down in rank to E-1 and had forfeiture of pay for three months (17:47:01). The same man later was given a bad conduct discharge, the trial lasted five days, and took her thirteen days to transcribe the court hearings (19:07:14). Jan often had difficulties in the hearings for unauthorized absence, especially the ones that involved men from the Philippine’s or African Americans, because she could not understand them, which caused her to interrupt the court and asked for them to speak more clearly (20:38:01). During these hearings, she learned a lot about the people and their backgrounds. Most of these people were enlisted and not drafted to her knowledge. Many people attempted to defend themselves, which in one case resulted in a mistrial and the proceeding had to be redone (22:59:04). Other cases that Jan dealt with were assaults, admin discharge hearings (one of which involved three black men involved in a drive-by shooting, where one of the men was sentenced to ten years or more and was given an undesirable discharge) (24:55:29). Admin Discharge – were cases that were generally not militarily related, but against society, such as homosexual cases. Jan knew one girl who was a homosexual that received an UD (undesirable discharge) who later appealed all the way to the President of the United States, but was denied (26:17:11). Homosexuality was a problem back then because it often times was followed by violence, such as beatings in the barracks and harassment (28:09:26). Civilian Life (29:00:00)     Many women who joined the Navy in those days did so because of patriotism but also because of the training, which opened jobs in the civilian world. Jan’s initial tour of duty was three years, but lasted four years. (29:17:06) Vietnam caused her enlistment to be extended After her enlistment ended in 1967, she returned to Holland and later joined the reserves in 1971 (30:50:20). Every year she was sent to a two week active duty assignment where she was sent back to Rhode Island. Recalled to Active Duty (31:34:23)   In 1975, Jan committed to a two year active duty recall and was stationed in New Orleans. She was working for the Naval Reserve Chief in the JAG.  She had a totally different job, which included legal documents and legal assistance; she did not do any reporting.  Jan lived away from base and was forced to take a boat to the base area. Wearing high heels and a skirt, once she almost fell in the water, and was saved by a Marine (33:10:05)  While there, Jan did not care for the job, but enjoyed being there. She also met her second husband while in New Orleans (34:16:05). After her two years, she believes she returned to Rhode Island. �U.S. Forces Azores (35:26:11)      She describes the area as ‘backwards’. Jan remembers farmers with donkeys and the local taxi cabs being Mercedes. The base was operated by the Portuguese Air Force. There she served as the legalman for the base. Mostly small legal matters. She only stayed for two weeks at a time. The local population depended highly on the military to support the island (37:38:06). The climate was cool and damp, not sun bathing weather. She was there in the March to April time frame. Back to Civilian Life (39:43:00)     1977, Jan finished her second tour of active duty and remained with the reserves but returned to Michigan. She worked for several different law firms during this time. In 1991, she moved to Grand Rapids and got a job working for the city, she retained this job for twenty years. Jan retired from the reserves in 1997 (40:23:03) Looking Back to last duty assignment (40:24:00)        Jan served as the legal officer for the Seabees, serving between Grand Rapids and Detroit. As the only legal person in the unit, she was also the only female chief in the battalion (41:22:27) Only once was she stationed on a ship during her active duty tours, the Nicholson (43:19:18). She was a chief at the time, and was the legal expert on the ship after the other woman legal aid left on leave. Jan also had difficulties navigating the destroyer escort ship that was out of Norfolk, Virginia, often getting lost. She was also worried about going out to sea because she gets seasick (44:46:00) Luckily, the ship stayed tied to the pier during her time there. Veterans Organizations (45:40:18)      Jan was first involved with the Furniture City Post of the American Legion, which is a sea service only post only open to Navy, Coast Guard and Marine veterans. There, she was the first female commander. She is also the Judge Advocate of the post (46:27:09) The Judge Advocate ensures that the protocol and bylaws are followed by the post. Later she moved up to become the commander of the 5th District, and has held several different positions in many different areas. �             Even though it is considered an all boys club, Jan has held many different roles, but is unable to go higher than the district commander because she is a female. (48:09:25) She is also a life member of Amvets. Waves National, is a sea service women’s organization, and she has been involved all the way to the national level. Jan is the Regional Officer, but the organization is slowly going away, because most of the members are World War II veterans and are getting old and unable or unwilling to get things done. (49:25:26) Every other year, she attends conventions, which is sometimes held on a cruise ship. The designation has wanted to change names, but the price of changing names would be too high, and Jan wanted to see better promotion of the organization. It is open to any women who served in a sea service capacity. She believes that she has earned the respect from the men in these veterans’ organizations by taking on many different tasks, and completing them well. She has also recently retired from the local honor guard, which is also heavily dominated by men (52:33:05) Most of the men in these organizations are Vietnam Era or younger, which give her more respect than the die hard World War II or Korean vets. On the honor guard, she would usually serve as one of the riflemen who fire the twenty one gun salute at funerals, and had to get training on the proper way to handle the rifle and how it operated. (53:43:07) Each funeral takes a commitment of about two and half hours. She finds the experience very rewarding. Most people don’t understand the military and what it means to serve, even her family. Jan was awarded Kent County Veteran of the Year, the second woman to receive that honor. (56:51:25) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoyJ1479V Title A name given to the resource Roy, Janice (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roy, Janice Description An account of the resource Jan Roy was born in Holland, Michigan in 1941. She joined the United States Navy in 1963, and served as a court reporter and legalman both on active duty until 1977 and in the Naval Reserve until 1997. She was stationed in New Orleans, Newport, Grand Rapids, the Azores and aboard on the destroyer escort Nickelson. Jan remains active with the local veterans organizations such as the American Legion, Amvets and Waves National. She has attained the positions of commander and judge advocate for the American Legion and was named the Kent County Veteran of the Year. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-02-07 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec0c5fbb256c0e23fd87c5bab31288fe.pdf 8524dadbc13112b315957172fa1a37f5 PDF Text Text 1945 - 1.9 85 40th Anniversary Liberation of The Netherlands COMMEMORATION WASHINGTON, D.C. May 4 and 5, 1985 �-2- BOOKLET PRESENTED BY THE ROYAL NETHERLANDS EMBASSY REGARDING THE COMMEMORATION OF THE 40TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE LIBERATION OF THE NETHERLANDS ON WHICH OCCASION SOME EVENTS WERE HELD ON MAY 4 AND 5, 1985 IN WASHINGTON, D, C. �-3- CONTENT I INTRODUCTION BY HIS EXCELLENCY AMBASSADOR RICHARD H, FEIN II PICTURES (COPYRIGHT MARY JOYCE HARDEY) Page 4 - WREATH LAYING CEREMONY AT ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY, VIRGINIA 6 - CEREMONY AT THE NETHERLANDS CARILLON IN ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA 7 - COMMEMORATION OF THE LIBERATION OF THE NETHERLANDS HELD AT THE CHANCERY OF THE ROYAL NETHERLANDS EMBASSY 8 - WELCOME OF THE GUEST SPEAKERS BY AMBASSADOR RICHARD H. FEIN 9 - CONCERT G1VEN BY MRS ELLY AMELING AND MR RUDOLF JANSEN 10 III ADDRESS OF THE NETHERLANDS AMBASSADOR, RICHARD H, FEIN AT THE NETHERLANDS CARILLON, ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA, MAY 4, 1985 11 IV WELCOMING REMARKS BY AMBASSADOR RICHARD H. FEIN AT THE CHANCERY 12 OF THE NETHERLANDS EMBASSY ON MAY 5, 1985 V ST , EUSTATIUS AND BASTOGNE, THE PAST THAT BROUGHT US TO THIS DAY - MAY 5, 1985 BY MRS BARBARA W, TUCHMAN 14 VI THE AMERICAN CONTRIBUTION TO THE LIBERATION OF THE NETHERLANDS BY DR LOUIS DE JONG 24 VII ON THE SPOT, PERSONAL EXPERIENCES IN WW II NETHERLANDS BY BRIG ,-GEN , NICHOLAS E. ALLEN (RET , ) USAF 29 VIII MUSIC PROGRAM TO COMMEMORATE THE 40TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE LIBERATION OF THE NETHERLANDS ELLY AMELING, SOPRANO RUDOLF JANSEN, PIANO 31 �-4- INTRODUCTION This year, 1985, The Netherlands, as many other countries, celebrated the 40th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. In a sense, this fourtieth anniversary had a ~pecial character, since it represented what could be called a watershed. The generation that had actually lived through the events of World War II in their early youth was being overtaken gradually by a generation for whom those events were past history, Thus, for some this anniversary represented an occasion, perhaps the last one, to look back and to remember in sorrow. For others it represented a victory and a beginning of what now is. Now it so happens that in The Netherlands the end of World War II is traditionally commemorated each year on two different days: on May fourth we remember the dead and on May fifth we celebrate the victory , This distinction became, as explained, especially relevant on this fourtieth anniversary , Also in Washington D.C , this distinction ·was respected. Another distinction that should be born in •mind is that The Netherlands was liberated by two different efforts: those of our allies and especially the Americans and those of our own, Dutch forces, both military and of the resistance, A third distinction I should wish to make on this anniversary, is that the liberation of The Netherlands was achieved by two different efforts: by force of arms based on political and philosophical concepts, and by spiritual force, rooted in our culture ,· This too we tried to reflect in our commemorative celebrations here in Washington . Thus, rendering homage to · the elements I mentioned, on May fourth, first of all, in an impressive ceremony performed by the US military forces, we layed a wreath on the Tomb of the American Unknown Soldier at Arlington National Cemetry. Immediately thereafter we went to the nearby Netherlands Carillon, a gift of the Dutch people to the American people, and some Dutch music was played and a few speeches were made in honor of the Dutch resistance and military forces and the many civilians who gave their lives. The next day, May fifth, there were also two events. In the afternoon, at the Chancery, there was a gathering and speeches on the political perspectives of the liberation were made by American·historian Barbara Tuchman, Dutch historian Lou de Jong and Brigadier-General Nicholas E, Allen USAF (ret,) who was a member of the 82nd Airborne Division, In the evening, at the Embassy Residence, a concert was presented by Dutch soprano Elly Ameling and pianist Rudolf Jansen, both outstanding representatives of to-day's Dutch culture, �-5- We ar e most grateful to all tho se who participated 1n these events . Apart from tho se already ment i oned I s hould like to thanK es peci all y the Commanding Genera l U.S, Army Mil i ta ry Disttic t of Wa shi ngto l"I , MaJot General John l , Ballantyne and the Superi ntendent of Ar l i ngton Nat iona l Cemetery Mr Ray J . Con sta nzo and als o Mr John Byrn e of the Nati onal Pa rk Serv ice and Deputy Ch i ef of Chapla i ns U. S. Army Bri gaai er Pau l O. Fo rs berg . A speci al wo r d of appr eci at i on goes to Mr Frank Laws who pl ayed the Nethe rl and ~ Ca rill on fo r many yea rs but unfort unatel y pa ss ed away the end of Ju ne , Th i s booklet i s offer ed i n tr i bute to the men and women , Ame r i can and Dut ch, who contributed to and made sa c.r ifi ces fo r the l ibera tio n of my coun try , We do so al so i n the hope that fut ur e gene r at i ons l ea r n f r om i t . The Amba ss ador Ric ha r d H. Fei n �-6- May 4, 1985 Commemoration of the victims of the Second World War Wreath laying ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery, Virginia Foreground left: Ambassador Richard H. Fein Foreground right: Major General John L. Ballantyne Commanding General U.S. Army· Military District of Washington, D.C. �-7- May 4s 1985 Commemoration of the victims of the Second World War at the Netherlands Carillon in Arlington, Vi r ginia FROM PEOPL E Of AMOS Speeches delivered · by Ambassador Richard H, Fein (center) and Brigadier-General Paul 0. Forsberg, Deputy Chief of Chaplains U,S, Army (left) On the right Mrs Richard H, Fein Afterwards music was played at· the Netherlands Carillon by Mr Frank Law �-8- May 5, 1985 Commemoration of the liberation of The Netherlands Speeches at the Chancery of th-e R-oya,l Netherlands Embassy From left to right: Dr Tuchman, Mrs Barbara Tuchman, Ambassador Richard H. Fein, Mrs Fein, Mrs Allen, Brig,-Gen, Nicholas E, Allen USAF ( ret). �-9- May 5, 1985 Commemoration of the liberation of The Netherlands A series of speeches was delivered at the Chancery of the Royal Netherlands Embassy From left to right: Ambassador Richard H. Fein, Mrs Barbara Tuchman, Dr Lou de Jong and Brigadier-General Nicholas E. Allen, USAF (ret) For their speeches see index . �-10- May 5, 1985 Commemoration of the liberation of The Netherlands Concert given by Dutch soprano Elly Ameling at the Residence of Ambassador and Mrs Richard H. Fein Mrs Ameling was accompanied at the piano by Mr Rudolf Jansen, also from The Netherlands �-11- Address of the Netherlands Ambassador~ Richard .H. Fein, at the Netherlands Carillon~ Arlington, Vi rginia, May 4, 1985 Today 40 yea r s ago the Nether lands was l i berated from the wo r st 5 yea r s in the hi story of our country . Those wer e years of great sufferi ng and i nhuman sacrifi ces. There was a great loss of life, both civilian and military . Ci vi l i ans by tens of thousands gave · their lives for their political or religious beliefs , Many Dutchmen gave their lives simply because they wanted their country to be free .· The Dutch armed forces, even after the country had been occupied, as was most of continental Europe, continued their military oper ations aga i nst the enemy from the·,British isles o They waged war in the air and at sea, and fina ll y again on land~ in the lowlands across the sea. We are grateful to England for providing our Queen and our government in exile and oar· armed · forces · the opportunity to continue the fight in those years when all seemed lost . And we have a debt of gratitude to the other allied forces, but especially to the United States of America for coming to our rescue and turning the scales of fortune of this cruel war and finally l i berating our country and restoring our freedom and ou r democracy, We are here today to r emember and hono r those who gave thei r l i ves in that struggle· for survival and liber ation of the Netherlands , We honor the Dutch civilians and -the resistance fighte r s and the military; not only the soldier s of our own · nation · but also those of our all i es who gave their l i ves fo r ou r freedom , In so doing · we are · resolved that those sacrifices wi ll not have been in va i n. Even-as the generations change and move along, we know that if we stand united·and strong we · can say to those who gave their lives 40 years ago, as we · can say to our children, that it wi ll never happen again , �-12- Richard H, Fein Netherlands Ambassador to the United States Chancery· of the Royal Netherlands Embassy May 5, 1985 As most of you know, in The Netherlands we commemorate the events of World War II on two different days, May the 4th and May the 5th , It was so decided almost 40 years ago for what might be called practical reasons'' . It was felt, even then~ that it would be appropriate to separate, on the one hand, the commemoration of the dead, of those who lost their lives · in •that terrible war, therefore a sad and sober occasion; and on the other hand the celebration of oar· final victory, our liberation and the restoration of our democracy ander ·our Queen, the old Queen Wilhelmina, of whom Churchill once said that she was the only man in Europe (but that was some· time earlier than -the ·war we are concerned with today) . 11 11 11 11 , 11 Therefore, as most of you know, yesterday, on the 4th of May, we went to the · military cemetery in Arlington and we did two things . First, most appropriately I think, we placed a wreath on the tomb of the American · unknown -soldier, · thereby rendering homage to the valiant American fighting men ·who·had · given their lives for us . Next, we went to The and listened to some freedom fighters and of·coarse, about our Netherlands · Carillon, nearby, and we said a few words music- in commemoration of the Dutch, both civilians, the mtlitary who died in that war, and we also spoke, allies. But today is the 5th of May and we are here, mainly, for a different purpose: to remember the positive events and to celebrate our liberation and to look forward ·with confidence · to our future . To do this we have been most fortunate in securing the cooperation of some friends who are eminently qualified · to speak to · us on this subject on this occasion, today . In the first place there is Barbara Tuchman, a historian whom I have always greatly admired and·whom I sometimes try to copy when I write my reports, not very successfully I 1 m afraid, Imitation, as you know, is the greatest compliment. Barbara Tuchman will speak to us about Sint Eustatius and Bastogne, the past that brought· us to this day, May 5, 1985 11 11 , She will, if I am not mistaken, pick up the American-Dutch military cooperation from· its historical conception~ way back, two hundred years ago, when the young American Republic was being born, a process in which the Dutch took an interest and gave a helping hand. We are looking forward to her words with great eagerness. �-13- Then we are also most grateful to Dr Lou de Jong who has come from Holland to · be with us this day. He will talk about our next encounter in history, when,·4o years ago the · United States repaid its modest debt · to The Netherlands -with a huge interest; he will talk about the U.S. contribution to our liberation . Finally, and we kept him to the last, we will hear from the personal experiences · of a man who did not· write history, but who made history, Brigadier General Nicholas E. Allen~ who actively participated in the American military operations in The Netherlands , �- 14~ St . Eustatius and Bastogne The past that brought us to this day - May 5, 1985 by Mrs Barbara W. Tuchman As we assemble here on the anniversary that we are al l thankfully celebrating. I would like to rec a 11 for you two epi sodes of our mutual hi story - without which there might be no free Netherl ands today and no independent United States, The two central figures in these episodes may be known to some of you, but I expect not so many . I would like to draw them out of the dim mis ts of history and present them so they may share in the honors of our celebration . The nearest in time was an American, Genera l Anthony Clement McAu li ffe, artillery commander of the 101st Air borne Division in World War II, who di ed last summer in Washington at the age of seventy seven. On the eve of D-day, June 6th. 1944, he parachuted his troops i nto Normandy and after seven months hard-fought progress northward found himself holding the Belgian village of Bastogne again st the thrust of the last great German offensive of the wa r , known to us as the Battle of the Bulge . The offensive, as you r emember, was intended to smash its way through to the coast, seizing Antwerp, divi din~ the British and American ground forces from each other and, had it succeeded, isolating the Netherl ands f~om he~ allies and cutting her off from access to the coast . American for ces in the Ardennes, trying to stem the German advance, were putti ng up a strong but outnumbered defense . Bastogne as the hub of several roads ma rked out for the advance of the German tanks, was a decisive po i nt , Surrounded by the enemy the First SS Panzer Division at odds of four to one, the Americans 1 numbering • Barbara W. Tuchman is a non-academic historian, and autho r of A D1S1ANT MIRROR, THE GUNS OF AUGUST, THE ZIMMERMAN TELEGRAM, STILWELL AND lHE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE IN CHINA, among other works . She received the Pu li tzer Price for general non-fiction in 1963 for THE GUNS OF AUGUST . Born In New York City in 1912, Mrs Tuchman graduated from Radcliffe Col l ege in 1933, and then served as a researcher for the Institute of Pacific Relattons9 including a yea r in Tokyo 1934-35 , She has worked for 1'The Nation"~ "The Satut'day Even i ng Po st" . The Washington Post", and wrote for a score of othe·r publications from all parts of tne world . �about 10~000 gripped the position through seven days of ceaseless battering at a cost. among others, of eighty-six Americans killed in what his tori ans of the war remember as · the··Ma lmedy massa cre. On December 17, 1944 members of a U.S; ·battalion were herded·together after their surrender to be shot down by pistols and machine guns . Today it is difficult to avoid reference to ·that other ceremony that had just taken place in Germany by our visiting chief of state whose gesture of reconciliation may not seem a· happy choice to families and· comrades of the victims of Malmedy . Five days after that episode, the defenders of Bastogne received an ul ti ma tum demanding their surrender from Genera 1 Heinrich von Luttwi t.z • commander of the SS Panzer Division, opposing them , The ultimatum required a decision within • two hours, failing which the Germans would destroy the defenders ~ the town and all the people in it, McAuliffe fa ced a military and moral decision of fearful import staking the lives of all his men and of the Belgian•civilians against the defense of a critical allied position . He did not weigh or ponder the values for to do so would have reduced him to paralysis. Instead, obeying his instant reacti on, he scrawled on a piece of paper a one word reply - "Nuts!" and handed it to a junior officer to deliver - Mt;Auliffe 1 s classic reply is no doubt known to all of you as it is known to all Americans, but the response of General von Luttwitz on receiving this curiously wo r ded message may be less familiaro "Does that mean Yes or No?" he asked, explaining through an aide that he did not understand the English expression . The American messenger was glad to oblige with a translation, "My commander's reply is "Nuts" he said, "It means go to hel'l - you can understand that, can 1 t you? 11 • Upon the defenders' refusal of surrender, the battle to dislodge them was pursued . For another week under the Panzer 1 s fearful hammering and systaining heavy casualties, McAuliffe 1 s troops held grimly to their position until, on the day after Christmas, the American 4th Armored Division from the south broke through to relieve them . Testifying to the intensity of the struggle, they found the batt1 eground 1ittered with the debris of two hundred German tanks , The prolonged American resistance at Bastogne, like the unexpected Belgian resistance to the German invasion of 1914, threw the German plan of offensive off schedule, and nothing is so intolerable to the Teuton i c mind as a disarranged schedule , After the relief of Bastogne their offensive lost energy and conviction, As it was by now overextended, Hitler 1 s generals advised withdrawal, advice which the F~hrer of course ignored o Allied counter=attacks now moved forward al1 along the line and by the end of March crossed the Rhine at Remagen br1 ng1ng the war onto German soil . On all the we~tern fronts in France, Austria and Italy advances were general while in the East Soviet forces penetrated the outskirts of Berlin , The rest you know, On the last day of April Hitler comm1tted suicide, leav i ng Admiral Doenitz as his successoro On May 4th Doenitz delivered to General Montgomery a proposal of surrender of the German forces in the northern zone including the Netherlands . At 8 a,m, the next morning. May 5th. 't0aay 1 s anniver sary, the surrender became effective , Three days later on May 8th, the British and Americans proclaimed VE Day, �-16- We must all want to draw a deep breath upon recalling the closing of that terrible five years ordeal . Then I should like to go back two hundred years to an action by the Netherlands, less dramatic but decisive for my own country. In the 1770's when the American colonies were in the midst of their revolution to overthrow the dominion of Btitain, their fortunes depended on obtaining arms and ammunition. St. Eustat1us, a small Dutch island of the Lesser Antilles or Leeward Islands ly1ng about 200 miles east of Puerto Rico at the northeast corner of the West Indian chain, proved to be the horn of plenty and primary transmission point of supply . A rocky, barren volcanic outcropping, barely seven square miles in area it was an unlikely place for a rendezvous with history, Its closest neighbor, eight miles distant was the British island of St. K1tts . Antigua~ Barbados, St . Croix and other British, French, Dan1sh and Spanish islands of the Lesser Antilles were ~cattered around . Set in the midst of the rich multi-national West Indies • St, Eustat1us had nothing but its location and the will and energy of a thriving mercant1le people to make it a hub of international trade and among the most prosperous of its neighbors. The indomitable will of the Dutch people had already carr1ed them through an eighty years war of rebellion to overthrow Spanish sovereignty and brought them through by their seafaring enterprise to overseas empire and to an equal role w1th the great powers. As such they were not now disposed to acquiesce readily to British dictation as to what their ships could or could not carry as contraband to the colonies or submit to search and seizure on command . 9 From the beginning, Dutch instinct for commerce had led their rulers to reject the system prevailing among other nations of attempting to monopolize the commerce of their colonies, and had adopted instead the principle of free colonial trade. As a free port, St , Eustatius had flourished as the focus, according to British complaint, of all clandestine traffic to the Colonies and a storehouse of the goods of all nations. Merchants and shippers reaped the proceeds and found a profitable opportunity in American offers to buy arms, food,clothing, meaical supplies and all the needed provisions to feed a hungry war, for which they pa1d high prices . The pressure of the merchant class, represented by the formidable Dutch West Inaia Company which held a monopoly over trade with America, and perhaps, too, the open sympathy of popular opinion with the cause of the colon1es induced the States General, governing body of the Netherlands, although favoring the British as fellow-rulers, to declare the Republic neutral in the war between the Brjtish crown and its colonies , According to the laws or doctrine of the time, a neutral had the theoretical right to pursue a normal trade with either belligerent so long as the goods provided did not operate to the mi 1 itary disadvantage of the other. At the same time the theory allowed a belligerent to prevent the subjects of the neutral state from supplying military supplies in aid of its enemy , Between these two assertions - the right of a neutral to trade and the right of the belligerent to interfere to stop the trade - there could be no reconciliation. Determined to take advantage of this opportunity, Dulch merchants and nav1gators, bra~ing the physical and financial risks, were soon making it pay richly . Wealth filled their warehouses. The American colonies sent the i r products, - tobacco, �-17- indigo~ 5ugar - to exchange for naval and military supplies and other goods from Europe" Their agents in Amsterdam arranged the purchases aod the delivery to St" Eustatius for trans-shipment some 1.400 miles across the Atlantic to the American coast where Cha,letton 1n So~tn Cafo11na was the nearest port. Vessels l oaded with 1,000 to 4,000 pound~ made tne,~ way to Amer1ca , To the rebels plagued by a shortage of gunpowder. St , Eus tati us made the difference ,. "A favorite way to take amm;_ioi on to the Americas"., reported a pro-British merchant to tn~ Br·iU:;h Amba; .s ado'(, "is to load for the coast of Africa but then go to St . Eustatius where the cargoes are instantly bought up by the American dgents ''The Br•tish ~igorously protested and in October 1774 proclaimed the e:x:po-rt. ot "wa1i1ke sto"'es" to the co:onies in America to be contraband. t, Unwilling to risk war with Britain, which nad at that t1me more than one hundred warships of sixty guns each compared to sixty-odd of the same type each for France and Spain and eleven for the Nethe~lands. the States General complied -with the protests ~ In March 1775 it announced to its subJects a s1x month~ prohibition of shipments of contraband and other stores, even clothing, under penalty of confiscation of the cargoes, and neavy t i nes. As an unbearable restraint on their lucrative tradei the order aro~sed wrathfu l ~esentrnent and was routinely disobeyed , I must put in a word here about conditions in the Netherland~ at tne time, The glories of the seventeenth century 1 s Golden Age had faded leav 1 11g an o1igarchy of ruling families governing in stiff conservatism under the f1fth Prince of Orange as hereditary stadtholder, with executr ,1e and legis1at ·h e power exercised through the States Gene·:-a·1 ,. As men of pr operty, the States Genera 1. fear fog the revolutionary tendency of the American rebels against estab11sned authority and the infection of·politica1 theories breeding in France, favored the British, a11 the more as their own pr1nces were closely connel ted w1th tne British Royal family, William III of Orange through Stuart aricestry ana ma,"r1age to Mary. daughter of tne overthrown King James II of Eng1and, nad oeen 1niited to assume the English crown in 1688 , As William III. he betame King of England and reigned together with his consort as William and Mary , The ruling stadtholder and Prince of Orange in the 1770 1 s was a cousi11 and naturally swam in tne o~bit of the British monarchy, al though the major1ty of his ~ubjects did not . l~ey supported the American cause mainly to show opposition to tne1r own ~u l ing cl 1ss , and for a more cogent reason , They anticipated that the free1ng of the Ame,,ic.an colonies from the grip of British mer cant1lism would weaken the British and open to the Dutch the possibil1ty of a vast commerce which was expected 1n the words of one enthusiast to, ''multiply like sand 1 ' . Exasperated by the defiance of Dutch shippers, the Br1t1sh augmented their guard of the island sea roads to check on ships heading across the Atlant1c. Ironically British vigilance threw West Indian commerce even more tnto the hands of neutral Netherlands and enriched the free port of St . Eustatius . lhe barren i ittle island was 11 d1fferent from all the others 11 sala Edmund Burke in a speec. n of 1781, when SL Eustatius was in the public eye " "It had no ptod1.1ce- . - no fon i f1cat 1 ons for its defence, no rnania1 spirit nor rnil ita-ty r egii"iation.s --" lts ut11H.y was its defence ., - . The universality of its use; the neijt~a11ty of its natuie was its security and its safeguard" Its proprietors in tne spir1t of commerce had made it an emporium for all the world .,, Its wealth was prodigious, arising from its industry and tne natute ot hs commerce" �-18- By a strange twist of history, this very wealth would become the factor that was to entrap the British in defeat , But that is getting ahead of eventi . Stil l i n 1775 , the States Gener~l fn response to inc reas i ng British 1nsistence that the traito~o ·s r ebels 1n the colonies must receive no aid or nouri shment from any friendly powe r , agreed to appoint a new governor of St . Eustatius to r eplace the incumoent who was regarded as too favo rab l e to the American cause and too lax restrain i ng the smuggling·of· contraband . I must now introduce to you the McAuiiffe of this situation . Although not a hero in the McAu l iffe sense he is yet a figure who played a determining role 1n the course·of ·events when the outcome wa s st111 uncertain and he dese rv es our r emembrance . His name, Johannes de Graaff, though litt l e known 1s, I am glad to say, now permanently preserved in St , Eustatius on a bronze plaque over the signatu re of Pr esident · Frank11n Roosevelt . De Graaff was appo i nted 1n mid-1776 as the new Gove r nor . Ac cording to compla i nts made about him by fellow residents of the island, he was a "r<ich man owing a numbe~ of farms and holding mortgages on many others, being thus in a position to hold many·people dependent on him, the more so as he put friends and relatives in administrative office so that he entirely controlled the five-man assembly or Counsil of St . Eustatius . Evidently autocrati c , he was complained of for acting arbitrarily . Such · ev1dence makes it quite cl ear that De Graaff was not a·nominal or absentee governor, but fully aware and in contr ol of the activities on hi s island , If he was expected to put guards on the port to suppress the smugg l ing trade, any such hope was disappointed c He proved to be even more of a parti san of the American cause ·than his predecessor , The port is "opened without rese r ve to American ships protested an English sea captain, while the American agent in St . Eustatius, Van Bibber of Maryland wrote home, I am on the best terms with H, L the Go·vernor· ... Our Flag flys current every day 1n the road , , , The Governor is daily expressing the greatest desire and intention to protect a trade with us her-e ; 11 The · nutch West India Company, which emp l oyed the Gove r no r , could hardly have been ignorant of these sentiments, and being eager to augment its revenues from the American trade, doubtless appointed him for that reason . 11 , 11 In that same summer when De Graaff took office, history lurched 1n a shake-up that changed the balance of the world when in July the united Ameri can Colonies proclaimed ·their Declaration of· Independence as f ree and sovereign states . Three months later the Congress authorized a navy to consist initially of four ships of ten guns each with two battalions of marines for manpower . When the infant arm was but nine days old, the Congress gave it an active function by announcing that British ships were open · to ·capture in retaliation for raids on American coastal towns " This was news that excited De Graaffi s bold sp i rit for-~ as we shall see, he acted upon it, or assisted its perforcmance, whether de 'l iberately or not we do not know , Before doing so, he committed the audacious, and from the Br i tish point of view, outrageous act for which he is known , On November 16, 1776 an American vessel of the new-born Navy, the Andrew Doria, bearing ·a commission from the colony of Maryland and flying the 13-stripe flag of the Continental Congressj entered the po~t of St . Eustat1us where it dropped �-19- anchor and fired an eleven gun salute in the tustomary ritual on entering a foreign po:rL To the astonishment of a·n, Fort Orange, the lone fort of St . Eustat l us, returned the salute with either nine o~ el even guns (the number is disputed) thus registering the first recognftfon in hi story of the American flag by a foreign nation . The date was almost a full year, eleven months to be exact 1 before the startling American victory at Saratoga in October 1777 showed that the raggle-taggle colonial troops were a substanti al force that might actually wfn , This was the event that decided France, Britain "s great enemy, to enter into overt alliance with the Colonies and by the addftion of her fighting force enable American indepenaence eventually to prevail, I do not pretend that De Graaff 1 s salute had a comparable impact on American fortunes, except indirectly by what it led to, as you shall hear , More than a mere routine ritual as De Graaff later pretended when under investigation, the salute was intentional and deliberate , In the subsequent furor, the commander of Fort Orange testified that he had been reluctant to fire Dut the Governor at his elbow had ordered it and the applause of the islana ' s lnhab1tants tells why , It confirmed to them that De Graaff was not going to enfor ce the prohibition of contraband or cut off the wealth it engendered . St. Eustatius rejoiced. After the salute, as the Maryland agent reported, the Captain of the Andrew Doria was 11 most grac.iously received by his Honour and all ranks of people , , . All American vesse1s here now wear the Congressional colors . . , and Toti es sneak. and shrink before the Americans her e , 11 Wrath in London, when informed of the salute by obsetve s of SL Kitts, was tremendous, and hardly mollified on learning that the Andrew Doria on depart i ng had taken on arms and ammunition fo( the Americans , Denouncing the salute as a 'iflag,.,ant insult" to His Majesty 1 s colors, the British informed the States General in the most peremptory terms that it must formally disavow the act, punish the culprit, and recall and dismiss the Governor of St , Eustatius . Further, unt111 satisfaction was received, they warned that, nH1s MaJesty will not delay one instant to take such measures as he will think due to the i nterests and dignity of his crown" . A storm of diplomatic missive~ descended on the Hague transmitting statements by the Governor of St. K'itts that the i nhabitants of St , Eustatius had "daily and openly" furnished supplies to the Americans, adding sorrowfully that it was a Dutch colony belonging to a friendly nation that had "ass 1 sted the Americans in their treason and hact become the protectors of their buccaneering '' , The reference to buccaneering referred to another outrage when De Gr·aaff, no doubt informed by the Captain of the Andrew Dor1a of the American claim as a full-fledged belligerent, to capture British snip-s. , had allowed an American privateer, the Baltimo,·-e Hero, to .sei ze a Btitish vessel within r ange of the guns of Fort Orange and return afterward, so the British said, to the roads of St. Eustatius, "apparently enjoying eve'('y p·r otection" . Moreover when given a chance to explain himself to the Gover"or of St , kitts, De Graaff nad refu5ed to enter 1n any discussion " �-20- meant that the Netherlands recognized the American par·~ in the struggle as an equal belligerent, not merely as rebels, Nevertheless the Dutch Republicg divided by the pro-American party of Amsterdam and the pro-British party loya "l to tne Prince of Orange, was unprepared to meet tne threat of war~ and ordered the recall of De Graaff and the post1ng of cruiser& off St, Eustatius to search Dutch ships for- arms and ammunition and other contraband , Pleading reasons of health and family responsibilities, and the burden of official duties, De Graaff tried to avoid going home, but was not excused , On his return in 1778 he was examined by a committee of the Wes t India Company. He maintained that the salute · to the Andrew Doria was a regulation courtesy to passing vessels with no regard for nationality and that it did not imply recognition. With regard to the trade with American vess-eh, he said St, Eustatius depended on outside sources for all its supplies and ne believed it was his duty to do· nothing to disturb its commerce , Outgoing cargoes were examined as strictly as possible, but there were always men who would vto1ate the rules. He denied the charge of equipping American vessels, exept to let them take on provisions and water for a period of six weeks and the charge of daily furnishing contraband. He demanded witnesses and asserted that it would violate his commission as governor to prosecute anyone without a plaintiff or condemn without evidence , Proudly 11 he insisted, '1 no one on earth" but his superiors was entitled to call him into account for acts of his administration. As for the· Baltimore Hero, he stated its action had taken place outs1de the range of his guns and he could no more have prevented it than if 1t had taken place off the coast of Africa. Taking the offensive, he charged that the Netherlands had more to complain of in British conduct than the other way around and reminded the Committee that two Dutch merchant ships had been seized for alleged contraband and·should be released with their cargoes and indemnity paid for costs and damages . ·Obviously pleased by this approach. the examining committee reported De Graaff 0 s defense to be perfectly satisfactory and recommended to the States General tnat he be returned to St, Eustatius as Governor, With more courage than bureaucracies normally exhibit, the States General~ refusing to bow to the British, accepted the verdict and sent De Graaff back to resume to governor ~htp in 1779 . Selfrespect for its sovereignty was no doubt one motive and the knowledge that De Graaff would keep open the gainful trade with the Colonies to the satisfaction of the merchant class was certainly another. In all this business of supplying the rebels, the primary Dutch interest was undeniably a profitable commerce rather than liberty, Commerce is generally considered a purpose and an act1vity on a lower level than · combat, but if judged by achievement of useful ends and in being less destructive and cruel, it should occupy a higher plane of respect than all that banging around amtd bloodshed that men so love . De Graaff resumed his post at St . Eustatius in 1779. His return was an insult to the Br1t1sh rather than the satisfaction London had demanded and they began to contemplate active reprisal . 9 The salute of the Andrew Doria and the incident of the Baltimore Hero seem to have given impetus to the shipping ventures of St. Eustatius , Es~ecially after De Graaff 1 s return as Governor, the trade of his island with the Americans visibly increased. �-2i- In thirteen months of 1778-79, according to the records of the Dutch admiral in command of convoys for merchant vesse1s~ 1,382 vessels sailed from the island, just about three a day . Although dest1nat1ons were of course unrecorded, an unusual number of heavily loaded ships reached Charleston and Philadelphia in this period . One vessel. sto pped and searched by the British, was found to be carryi ng 1,750 barrels of gunpowder and 750 stands of arms~ complete with bayonets and cartr1dge cases . Fo r- the a 1most empty American war cupboards, supplies 1i l<e these sustained them in action . In their turn the Americans shipped to St . Eustatius 12,000 hogsheads of tobacco and 1,5 mi lli on ounces of indi go in exchange for naval supplies, The governor-who presided over all this activity is memorable fo( rio act of heroism or heroic utterance like McAu11ffe :s» but rather for steady unwavering purpose effective l y pursued . The i mpo rtance of what he did to promote and encourage the prov isi oning to the Colonies' s~ruggle was recognized by contemporary Americans by the naming of two P"·ivateers for him and his wife, and by a selfdescribed "grateful American cit1zen 11 who in honor of the "fi r st sa ·! ute" commissioned De Graaff 1 s po rtrait. It now hangs i n the state house of New Hampshire . Mo r e notably. in December 1939 when the Netherlands lay 1n the path of German offensive Pres1dent Roosevelt. always proud of his Dutch ancestry and wishing, one can su:m1se, to express solidarity with the land of his fathers 1n this dark hour 1 delivered to St , Eustatius on board the training battleship Wyoming a p1 aque to be presented as the President's gift bea rin g the inscription, in commemoration of the salute to the flag of the Un ited States fired in this port November 16, 1776 by order of Johannes de Graaff i n reply to a national gun salute fired by the U,S , brigantine Andrew Doria , Here the sovereignty of tne United States was first acknow l edged to a national vessel by a fore i gn off1c1al 11 " Rooseve1t 1 s words confirm De Graaff salute as nolding a permanent place in Ame rican annals. British indignation at the unstopped flo~ that repeatedly rescued the rebe1s from the brink of empty arsenals reached a pitch in 1780 The government decided that no matter how drastic the method, the flow mu5t absolute l y be stopped, In December 1780 Britain decla r ed war on the Netherlands. and de ; patched the Admiral commanding West Indian waters~ Sir George Brydges Rodney, under secret orders, to seize St . Eustatius , At this point. the third significa~~ acto~ 1n my story takes the stage, not hero but ant i -hero . In naval service since the age of 14, a rea·r Adm iral at 40. Rodney had cornlll6nded the Leeward Islands station in the late war with France and had ca ptured Martinique, Grenada and other islands from the French . Like many British offi cers, h~ held a seat in the House of Commons where he was widely regarded as an opportunist who gave his support to whatever minister had favors to bestow, He has been described by one historian- as a "complete slave to women and gambling 11 and by another as ''the · most enterprising and irascible, able and bombastk, intolerant, in tolerable and successful British naval office r between Drake and Nel son . " His fatal weakness was money. or to be more preci se avaricej the sixtn dead l y sin , rle wa s re po rte d to have spent 30,000 Br itis h pounds to win hi s seat 1n Par li ament and had fallen so deeply in debt from his other expensive pu rsui ts that he f l ed to Paris to es ca pe his creditors, Recalled to serve in the Ameri can war, he was promoted to full Admiral and given the West Indian command in 1778 - �-22'.t Well knowing the wealth of St, Eustatius he himself had advised his government to undertake the capture for, as he wrote, the West Indies "Is the golden mine of the moment", where the most immediate reprisal might be made 11 wi th most effect, for it was SL Eustati us, Curac;;ao and other Dutch settlements, but, "above a 11 the former", that were the chief source of supply to the rebels , " Apprised of the Deel a ration of War and of his secret orders on January 27, 1781, he set sail on the 30tn and appeared before St , Eustatius on February 3rd to demand the instant surrender of the island and all it contained , With a garrison of only 50 or 60 men and a naval force in the roadstead of only one 38-gun frigate and five smal1er American vessels, there was no possibility of defense against Rodney 1 s 15 ships-of-the-line and 3,000 land troops . Given an hour to surrender unconditionally, De Graaff after firing two broadsides as a show of resistance to satisfy the nonor of the Dutch convoy commander in the harbor, surrendered, as did a large body of American sailors on the island who ·offered to fight but were cut off by the British from food, The taking of St. Eustatius was complete , He hoped, Rodney reported to the Admiralty, it would never be returned to the Dutch as 11 it has been more detrimental to England than all the forces of her enemies, and alone had contributed to the continuance of the American waro" That was a definitive tribute from the enemy, Rodney confirmed it e·ven more emphatically to his wife when he wrote, 11 Thi s rock, of only six mil es in 1ength and three in breadth, has done England more harm than all the arms of her most potent enemies, and alone supported the infamous American rebellion°" That an island so important to Dutch interests should have been left defenceless after the British declaration of war was a condition of the 18th Century , There was no means of communication to alert the governor much less of rapid deployment of reinforcements (none too reliable, one suspects, even today) , Rodney found loot on St , Eustatius like the treasure of Monte Cristo, beyond his expectations, enough to restore his fortunes, intoxicate his avarice and, in the end, betray his mission , "The riches of SL Eustatius are beyond all comprehens1on 11 he wrote his wife. Off shore 130 ships were taken with their cargoes valued at half a million pounds sterling . More than 50 American vessels loaded with tobacco were seized and hardly a night passed without an additional capture, All the houses on the island were filled with goods and even the beach covered with tobacco and sugar . The island according to Lord George Germain, British Secretary at War. was a "vast storehouse of military stores of all kinds 11 • The inhabitants of St . Eustatius had waxed so rich on trade, that the annual rent of its houses and warehouses amounted to the huge sum of a million sterling, and altogether the whole va1ue of the prize was estimated at more than three million sterling , So preoccupied was Rodney in counting his spoil and holding auctions of seized property (which rightfully belonged to the new sovereign power). that he could not bring himself to leave for duty on the high seas. The lure of the money gathered on St . Eustatius by the genius of Dutch commerce proved as decisive for the American Revolution as did the defense of Bastogne long afterward for tne liberation of the Netherlands , Rodney remained on the island for three months, more intent on wealth than on war, While he delayed, Admiral De Grasse, commander of the French West Indian fleet set sail, unwatched, with 3,000 French troopst across the Atlantic �-23- · for the ·meeting that would decide the fate of the New World. His destination was Chesapeake Bay, where in reply to a plan of General Washington he had promised .t o be· avatl able with his entire force for operations by midOctober : In that expectation, · Washington and his French ally, General Rochambeau were marching from Rhode Island to Virginia with 16,000 French and · American troops to take up battle against the British army under Lord Cornwallis at the coastal base he had established at Yorktown. Unmet and uncontested by Rodney's fleet, now holed up·at . St. Eustatius while its commander -stuffed his pockets, De Grasse passed by unseen and made good his ·promise, landin~ ·ahead of time . Arriving off Yorktown on August 30th, he set up a naval blockade of Cornwallis's position ·and sent his marines to reinforce · Lafayette in the sealing off of Cornwallis by land. At the same time he s·ent ships to ferry the bol k of Washington I s and Rochambeau I s troops from the · head of· the Chesapeake to the •rim of Yorktown . I shall not take up your time with the further course of that famous siege. With Cornwallis unable to break out, •it ' ended as the world knows, in his surrender and the· triumph·of the·American Revolution . The climax has no connection •with today• s· anniversary except in so far as the Netherlands, through · st ~ Eustatius and •its governor~ helped to bring about the conclusion at Yorktown ·; ·rn · memory of that share in American independence, ij gif~ in advance, so~to speak, in exchange fo~ America's share through McAuliffe and his men in ·· the liberation of the Netherlands, I am glad to recall for you a vital Dutch contribution· to my .country. �-24- The American Contribution to the Liberation of The Netherlands by Dr Louis de Jong* Attending yesterday the sober and m~ving ceremony on Arlington National Cemetery, I once again realized that oppression and liberation, mourning and joy form but one style entity like night and day. I was, as many of you, haunted by countless memories, in particular however of a visit I paid over twenty years ago to the remnants of the most typical expression of the essence of Nazi Germany: the concentration-camp of Auschwitz , Auschwitz I, the original camp, mostly consisting of the buildings of the Austrian garrison which had been located there. The 19th century was, I felt, too much of a contrast to what it had been at the time of the Holocaust: too well-preserved, too well-ordered, too placid - everything I saw: the tidy barracks, the splendid trees, the Museum even, imposing itself, the reality of the sixties covering, hiding so to speak, the reality of the forties, Auschwitz II, Birkenau, however, the huge camp that the German SS had had built in 1 41 and '42 at the cost of tens of thousands of human lives, was nearly bare. A gate building, a few drab sleeping barracks ( not much more than extended hovels), a railway track, remnants of a ramp, and where the chimneys of the gas-chambers, never flattened by Allied or Russian bombs, had risen into an indifferent sky, a few heaps of stones. Here free run was given to that human faculty which, I am confident my distinguished colleague Barbara Tuchman will agree, is essential for any historian: his creative but controlled imagination. Creative because he has to combine everything he is as a human being and everything he knows in order to recreate the past, controlled because he has to stay within the narrow bounds of what really happened, Standing there all alone, I had an overwhelming feeling of being right in the middle of a vanished world of suffering, infinitely distant from my own country. Silence was absolute, There was not a bird in the sky. There was a faint smell of a foul morass, There was an atmosphere of indescribable danger. I was at the edge of the universe, at the edge of life itself, facing, as so many had done, extinction , Germany's defeat has been the end of a nightmare . * Dr Lou de Jong, born in Amsterdam in 1914, studied history at the University of Amsterdam , In 1940 he escaped Nazi-occupied Netherlands, and worked until 1945 as a member of the broadcasting staff of the Government in exile in London , In 1950 Dr De Jong was appointed Director of the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation, a post held until 1979 , He was commissioned by the Netherlands Government to write the official history of The Kingdom of The Netherlands in The Second World War , Ten volumes have been published, with three to follow , �-25- Now I have been asked to say a few words on the American contribution to the liberation ~f the Netherlands rt seems a simple swbject but it is not. It is not because at that time the Netherlands, or rather: the Kingdom of the Netherlands, consisted of four parts: one, the Netherlands proper, that is: the Netherlands In Europe, two, Cura~ao and a few other islands on the fringe of the Caribbean, three, Surinam or Dutch Guyana, and four, those vast territories in Southeast Asia where the Dutch had made their first en try at the end of the sixteenth century: the Netherlands Indies whicn two generations ago were perhaps the richest colonial possession of any European power . It was the Kingdom of the Netherlands which on May 10, 1940, when Hitlerus armies suddenly started their invasion, declared war on Germany, it was that same Kingdom, which, the Netherlands proper having been occupied and the government of Queen Wilhelmina having settled in London, declared war on Japan the news had come in of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor and Manila and of the Japanese landings on the coast of British Malaya , There was no need to liberate either the Dutch territories in the Caribbean or Surinam because they were never occupied by our common enemies, but I would like to stress that both areas have made an important contribution to the Allied war-effort , Much of the aviation gasoline used by the British Royal Air Force was produced by the refineries of Cura~ao and Aruba and much of the bauxite necessary to build the hundreds of thousands of planes of the Air Forces of the American Army and Navy, was supplied by the bauxite mines of Surinam - indeed, that area was considered to be of su ch paramount importance for any American war-effort that a small American garrison was stationed there shortly before · the outbreak of war in the Pacific . The Netherlands proper were occupied by Germany and the Netherlands-Indies by Japan , No American forces were involved in the fighting in the Netherlands in May, 1940, but they did take part in the desperate defence of the NetneriandsIndies against the Japanese who, as is known, moved Southward in overwhelming forceo One American artillery battalion and fighters and bombers of the Army Air Forces helped defend Java and the American Navy fought gallantly in the waters of the Indonesian archipelago, the heavy cruiser 11 Houston", which was particularly dear to President Roosevelt, being its most important loss , In May 1 45 the last Germans in the Netherlands cap1tulated. We were able to build a new future of our own . It was as simple as that . Developments in the Netherlands-Indies however, were infinitely more complex . So was American policy " Generally speaking public opinion in this country favored the end of colonial rule·by European nationso Dutch rule in the Netherlands-Indies was, rightly, not · seen in the same unfavorable light as British rule In India, let alone French rule in Indo-China, still president Roosevelt found i t extremely difficult to make up his mind whether or not to support the return of the Netherlands-Indies under the Dutch crown" In the end he did, but with the important proviso · (it was never put on paper but it is clear from the events that it did determine American policy) that no American for-ces would be used to effecTThat return, Plans drawn up by general MacArthut to land on Java were cancelled by the American Joint Chiefs of Staff and on the day the Japanese Emperor announced·Japan's capitulation, August 15, 1945, responsibility for the �-26- entire area where the Netherlands-Indies were situated, was t~~ned over to the British, the Netherlands Government not having been consulted . Two days later Indone$1an nationalists on Jaifa procla1med the setting up of a new independent 5tate, the Indo~esian Republic. There isi therefore, no resemblance between the li beration of the Netherlands proper and that of the Netherlands-Indies . Indeed, what happened tnere seemed more l1ke a nightmare to the Important Dutch minority, some three hundred thousand people, who nad suffered horribly during the Japanese occupation, and deeply snacked mo~t of the people of the Netherlands whom it took over four years to accept a situation whicn had come as a complete and painful surprise . Happily we are now commemorating the end of the war not with Japan but with Germany . That was a triumph on which we can look back without any reservations, without any bitterness, indeed with unmixed feelings of pride and joy . I will come back to this " Now, when I w111 try to give you a pictu r e of what c.ontdbution the United States made to the liberation of the Netherlands In Europe, you might expect me to give details on the part Amer1can units took in that grand campaign that was led by general Eisenhower, as far as the fighting took place on Dutch soil . Some deta1ls I w1l I give, but l pfefer to put that campaign 1n a wider pers pective . lhe American contr1bution to the liberation of the Netherlands has many more aspects and 1 am tninking first of all of two . One: the fact tnat America was at war , Two; the American influence on the strdtegy that wa s followed to defeat Italy and Germany . In any war moral is an impo~tant factor, In May 8 40 I arr fv ed in Britain as a penniless refugee, having bee~, with my first wife, one of the very few people able to escape from the Nethe rl ands on the day our army surrendered. One of the first habits I resumed 1 n London (I had been a jo~rnalist in Amsterdam) was to read American papers" Most of them, at that t1meJ made highly depressing reading, one military analyst after the other pointing out that Brita1n had out ltttle chance to withstand future German attacks, let alone to defeat the Wehrmacht , Happ il y, President Roosevelt did not share this pessimism . Nor was 1t shared by tne people in the occupied Netherland~ , As eatly as the summer of 1940. indeed even Defo'(e tne Battle of Britain had been fought and won by tne Roya l Aii• Fo n e, mo -s t of them were convinced that Germany would be beaten. An occupjed nat~on lives on hope and this applies both to ordinary people who, faced with the ne cessity of stayjng alive, adapt themselves to the demands of a new situation, and to the courageous minority of resistance fighters who put their l1fe at stake, for instance in printing and distributing underground pape~s {we have had over one thousand), 1n collecttng intelligence, in helping Allied airmen escape, in carrying out sabotage and in giving aid to the vast groups wn1 ch hdd to hide within the folds of D~tch soc1ety, among them twenty fi~e thousand Jews and some three nundred thousand otner Dutchmen wnom the Germans interded to set to work in Germany . There were five years of occupation, but psyc hologically 1t wou l d be mo re correct to say: nearly two thousand days and n~ghts . Now, let me assure you tnat American support of Bf·itain in 1 40 and '41 had Deen d t,emendous encouragement to the DuUh nation and that, after tne United States had entered tne war, they were who11y con vi riced tna t the AYsefla1 of Democra c.y woU1 d pour out not only tne weapons but also the men needed to gdin v1cto1y . �-27- This has taken a long t1me. much too long, as peop )e felt . Hav1ng no 1dea of the 1mmen5ely complicated logistics of modern warfare, Hiey were deeply disappointed that the Al lied armies d1a not land i n Western Europe either in ' 42 or in i43 and that Pearl Harbo~ wa2 btit followed by O-day 1n Normandy after two-and-a-half years - nearly nine-hundred days and nights What was America 1 s influence on the strategy that wa s fo ll owed to defeat Italy and Germany? There is hardly a quest1on which can be so clearly answered, in thi s case on the basis not only of off1ctal British military h1sto~y out al;o of the magnifjcent series on the h1story of the US Army 1n World War II which was written in this country under the auspices of the Office of the Chief of Mi1ftary History . I do not intend even to give a brief summary of tne debates that took pl ace and the decisions that were taken at the Brit1;hAmerican top level conferences that 'I/ere he "id in WashF1gton. lfl Casablanca, in Quebec, in Cairo and on Malta, no r of the constant discussions which, subject only to the supervisio~ of President Roosevelt and Prime M1n1ster Churchill, tilled the many meetings of tnat body of or 1lliant m1litary leaders who led us to v1ctory: the Combined Chiefs of Staff . Wnat nas struck me in study~ng this hi ghly 1mportant aspect of World War II 1s that t1me and again agreement was born out of disagreement and that this disagreement had its deep roots in the differences between the hi story and the na t 1 ona l character of tne British and the American nation . There nas been a con5tant clash between British strategy which favoured attack s on the per1pnery of German-occupied Europe ta strategy which to a certain extent had been succe~sful i n Britainis struggle with Napoleon) and Amer-ican strategy wn tc h, true to tne maxims of Clausewitz never tailed to stress that, of the two ennem1es in Europe, the strongest one, Germany. should be attacked first - and attacked in an area which made mass-dep)oyment possible. that Is ; in the plains of Weste~n Europe , One of the many climaxes of this protracted Br1ti5h-American struggle took place in Algiers in January ' 44 when a landing on the Greek 1s1and of Rhodos was advocated by Churchill who, having been unable to convin,:e General Marsha l l. the Chief of Staff of the American Army~ finally declared with all tne solemnity he could muster; "His Majesty:' s Govern.rnsnt cannot accept the coi7sequences if we fail to make this operation", whereupon Marsnall 1nstantly rep'i1ed: No American 1s going to land on that goddamn is1and 11 " 9 i, British strategy has nad tne important pos1tive effect tnat American proposals to land in France 1n 1 42 (fasn proposals perhaps. but to be appreciated as tokens of that furious energy whi ch drove the American war-effort) were nipped in the bud - American strategy had had tne ,mportant po~Jtjve effect tnat, after all the delays and fr-ustrat10ns of the Mediterranean campaign, the maH1 battle when it was joined, took place where the American~, and they a·1 one, wanted 1t: in France, close to Germany . I have no doubt that t~e \iberat10~ of the Netherlands would have taken p·lac.e later (many days and nights later) 1f Briti":ri counsels had prevailed and for tnis reason I conclude that the contribution ot the American strategists had been no less important than that of the men who commanded the American armies In the field and the American A1~ Fofces tn the sky . The Netherlands lying on tne left flank of the Allied Armies break1ng out of the Normandy beachnead, tnere were more British and Canadian troops involved in the fighting on DJtc.h soi ·1 tnan Amerlcan Sl11 l the fi·fst r.wo towns in the Netherlands 9 �-28- to be liberated, were entered by American troops: Maastric,ht on September 14, 1944 by parts of the Ameri'can First Army, Nijmegen three days later by one of the most notorious of the American divisions, the 82nd Airborne , It is therefore fitting that many American men and boys who crossed the ocean only to be killed in battle, have found their last r esting place in an American War Cemetery on Dutch son, not far from the spot where the first Amer ican 1nfantry-men had crossed the Dutch frontier. thus confirming the promise of complete liberation . Forty years have passed but to many peopl e in the Netherlands and particularly to those who suffered most (I am thinking first of all of the prisoners in German concentration-camps, many of whom were liberated by American troops), it seems as if i t al l happened yesterday . The wartime years have been the central event in the life of many of us . Of course, there is a tendency nowadays to belittle the importance of Wor l d War IL People say: look at the world as it is to-day! Look at all the antagonisms between states, great and small, the local wars, the conditions of poverty on a major part of our globe, the pollution of our natural environment, the threat of mass-extinction by the atomic weapons that have been divised - look at the fact that democratic liberties as understood and rightly cherished by us, are suppressed in many parts of the world and denied to so many nations! Did World War II make sense? Was victory worth all those sacrifices? I for one do not hesitate to say: yes . lhe turmoils of the post-war and the present-day world do not offer a proper yardstick to measure the importance of the tremendous struggle that was brought to a victori ous conclusion . That proper yardstick c.an only be found when we try to i magine, be it for a brief moment, how Europe and how the world would have looked like if Hitler and his fellowcriminals had won the war " A11 who contributed to the i r defeat have helped save civilization as we understand it - a civilization·which we, Dutchmen, intend further to develop, to deepen and . to defend in close partnership with this great American nation o In many ways in the eighteenth century we may have assisted at its birth and even inspired its origin . Well, if the Americans who fought tne War of Independence felt they owed some gratitude to the Dutch Republic, then it can now be stated that in the twentieth century this debt has been paid to the Kingdom of the Netherlands . In full! �-29- On the Spot Personal Experiences in WW II Netherlands by Bri g. Gen . Ni chola s E. Al l en• ( ret) USAF Ambassador Fein, honored guests, and friends of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, I am honored, as a veteran of the 82nd Air borne Divisi on to part1cipate in this celebration of the final liberation of your country 40 years ago , At the outset, I want to pay tr i bute to all the thousands of Ameri can, Br itish , and Polish soldiers of the First Alli ed Airbo r ne Ar my and the men and women of your country who pa i d wi th their lives, back in September and October 1944 for the liberation of large areas of your country from the Belg i an border northward through the cities of Eindhoven and Nijmegen to the vicinity of Arnhem . As you have heard, the story of the First Allied Ai r borne Army ass ault on these areas of the Netherlands in September 1944, ha s been told by em i nent hfstorians , I shall not r epeat that story he r e except to poi nt out that thts was the l argest airborne assault i n hi sto ry, a fo rc e composed of some 35,000 ai r-bo r ne troops of the Br itis h Fi rst Airborne, and the U.S . 82nd and 101st Ai r bo~ne Divisi ons an d the First Polish Airborne Bri gade . Their mission was to seize and hold the canal and river crossings and clear the way for the XXX Corps of the Bri t is h armo r ed and i nfantry forces driving no r thward from Belg·ium, After seizing the bridges ove r the canals and the Maas and Waal Rivers, against strongly defended pos i t i ons, and after throwing back heavy enemy counterattacks all al ong their perimeter frontlines the American Div i sions were withdrawn l ate r to their base camps i n France . The Waal Rive r Bri dge by the way, was captured by simultaneous attac ks at both the north and south ends of the bri dge, troops of the 82nd ' s 504th Reg i ment having paddled across the river unde r heavy enemy fire, and then fighting the ir- way to the north end of the bri dge . One of your heroes , Jan van Hoof, pa rtici pated in that engagement and i s credited with saving tne bri dge against destructi on by hl mself destroy i ng the enemies ' demoliti on equ i pment befo re t ney cou l d use it aga i nst the bri dge . * Nic holas E. Allen 1 bo rn in Atlanta i n 1907, graduated f rom Princeton in 1929, and Harvard Law School i n 1932 . He was a member of the U.S. Army and U.S. Air Fo rce Reserve s fro m 1937 to 1967 in grades of 2nd Li eutenant to Bri gad ier Gene ral . He serv ed f ive yea rs as a U.S. Army Judge Advocate in World War II, including service as Staff Judge Advocate of the 82nd Airborne Divis ion, wh ic h took part in Operati on Ma rk et Ga r den in the Nethe~l ands in 1944 . �~30- Now for some recollections of my own . I believe two instances will suffice . Let me say first tnat my official assignment was staff judge aavoca te of the 82nd Airborne D1vislon , That means that I was the law officer fo~ the Dfvision Commander, General Jim Gavin, In that ass1gnment I directed the court martial system by which Army rules and d1sc1p11ne were enforced . Bearing in mind that all our officers and men, more than 12,000 of U5, wefe all volunteer paratroopers and gl1de ri sts, it is understandable that our discip l ine was tight and strictly enforced , The first i nstance~ I snall mention was a most unusual one . An off1ce~ of the division who had been entrusted with a copy of the 01v1 s1on ' s Order of Battle. the documents which spelled out the Divis,on 1 s batt 1e plan. ~1o l ated stric.t standing orders b_y carrying the document with him when ne went into action against the enemy . In the ensuing fire figrt the document ten into the hands of enemy so "l diers. But fortunately fo r us those 5-o'ld,ets were captured along with the battle pian before they could pass tt on to tne1r superiors , After the combat situation had stabilized suff1ciently tor 1 court mart1a l proceeding to be held the officer was charged w1th ai ding tne enemy by hi s negligence in tak ing the Order of Battle with him In to the fire f i ght . It is my reco ll ectfon that the Court acquitted hlm inasmuch as the document had been re capturea. without actual harm to the Divisi on . One other instance that may be of interest concerns the U. S. pres1dent1a1 el ection that was conducted in the fall of 1944 about the time of our campaign in Holland . Our Congr ess had dec r eed by special 1eg1":>lation that every American servicemen 21 years old or older wou l d have the right to vote in that el ect i on , Absentee ballots were pr in ted and sent out to all Command3, enough for every man in the American forces . 1 wa s put 1n cha r ge of vot1ng procedures for the men of our Division . The ba ll ots were delive red to me at our Dase headquarters in England, where I had to wait for the hi ghway torrider from tne Belg1an border to Nijmegen to be opened sufficiently for me to tran ; port the ballots up there . The moment we received word that I could get through l took off with my jeep load of ballots on our DC 3 airplane for Bru ss els . There [ off-loaded my jeep-load of ballots and made a dasn up the narrow highway cou i do r to our Division position in Nijmegen . Ther e, in a ha stil y a~ranged meeting. in an underground dug out, with officers from all of the 01v1 sl on 's units I distri buted the ballots and instructed them 1n the strict control proceau r es they were to follow. As it turned out, all of the ballots were accou nted for and returned to higher headqua r ters with just one exception . One vot i ng officer was cri tically wounded by enemy fire while making hi s way to r·eturn h1; ballot~. He was evacuated through medical channels andi so, his ballot s disappeared, and were lost for good . Ironically, the fact is that most of our Divis i on il s troops were too young to vote anyway . By actual count not more than 2 percent of tnem were o1ct enough to vote, In clos i ng, let me say in beha lf of our Divisi on Commander General Ga,ln, and all the other troopers of the 82nd Airborne Di visi on, we shall dlways remember the kindnesses the people of Nijmegen extended to u; while we wete there and also, and es pecially, the courageous and tremendous ass1stante the members of the Dutch unde r ground gave to the 82nd Airborne Div isi on in Cd rrying out our mission - the liberation of Ni jmegen and sur r ounding areds of your country . �-31- MUSIC PROGRAM TO COMMEMORATE THE 40th ANNIVERSARY OF THE LIBERATION OF THE NETHERLANDS E L L Y A ME L I N G SOPRANO Rudolf Jansen Piano PROGRAM Bede voor het Vaderland, from Valerius 1 11 Gedenck-Clanck 11 The Wakeful Nightingale, John W~ldon An die Musik, Franz Schubert Auf dem Wasser zu singen, Franz Schubert Wiegenlied im Sommer, Hugo Wolf Botschaft, Johannes Brahms Der Nussbaum, Robert Schumann Die junge Nonne, Franz Schubert IN TE RMI SS I ON La Rosa y el Sauce, Carlos - Guastavino Garota de Ipanema, Antonia Jobim Les Chemins de l Amour, Francis Poulenc Sophisticated lad i es, Duke Ellington By Strauss, George Gershwin Moeke, folksong 1 * * * * * * * It �-32- ELLY AMELING was born in Rotterdam, The Netheridnds , Her career started when she won a first pri ze at the Concours International de Musique i n Geneva . Miss Ameling has appeared th r oughout Europe, the Far Ea st and Austra li a and has per formed with every major orchestra unde r wo r ld renowned conductor s . Her Ameri can debut was i n Lincoln Center i n 1968 and s i nce then she has made annual tours of the Un i ted States and Canada , She was awarded most of the world ' s eagerly coveted hono r s, including the Grand Prix du Disque, the Ed i son Pri ze and the Stereo Preview Reco rd of the Year Awa r d" In June 1985 she r ecei ved a honorary docto r ate from Pr i nceton Un i vers ity , In her own country she has been kn i ghted i n the Orde van Or anje Nassau , Mi ss Ameling has made many r ecor dings, among other s, fo r; CBS Maste rwor ks, Phil i ps, RCA, London, Angel, Odeon, EMI Ha rmon i a Mund i ~ OGG, Peters, Inte r nat i ona1 Don emus, BASF , * * * * * * * * * RUDOLF JANSEN, born i n Ar nhem, The Nether l ands, studied as a young man at the Amsterdam Conser vatory , Upon t ri umphantly completi ng hi s t r ai ni ng i n 1966, he rece i ved the Pri x d' Excellence, and i n the same yea r was awa r ded t he prest1gious s il ver medal of the Amsterdam Con ce~tgebouw . Mr , Jansen is well rece i ved as a r ec i talist as well as an orchestral solo i sti although his special interest is the art of ac compan i ment . He i s conside red a completed, f i ni shed perfect Duo Pl ayer, rather than an ac compan is t, by the soloists wi th which he per forms , He has concerti zed th r oughout t he wor ld wi th many of today ' s most di sti nguished artists, i nc l ud i ng Ell y Ame l i ng, Tom Krause , Eve l yn Lear, Thomas Stewart, Bri gi t Fi nn il M, Ernst HM f lige r , I ri na Ar kh i pova, Agnes Gi evel, Jean-P i er r e Rampa l and Hans de Vr ies . A renowned teache r , he is al so much sought after fo r hi s maste rcl as ses , t o wh ic h he devotes a generous portion of hi s t i me, both at home and on hi s in t er national tours , Rudo l f Jansen is a featured artist on many chamber music record1ngs . Hi s di sks wi th Ell y Ameling incl ude : a dig i ta l r ecord i ng of Mendelssohn li ea€~ on CBS Masterwo r ks Hugo Wo l f 1 s Mi gnon Liede r on Etceter a, and two mi xed r ecita ls fo r Phonogram . * * * * * ** ~ * � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_DOC_1985-05-04-Commemoration-Liberation-Netherlands Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Royal Netherlands Embassy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985-05-04 Title A name given to the resource Liberation of the Netherlands, 40th Anniversary Commemoration Description An account of the resource Booklet commemorating the 40th anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands from Nazi occupation in World War II. Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands World War, 1939-1945 -- Netherlands Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ca763c84a468fa610f267c0ca13290d.mp4 3257907be81c0a8073fce5fe50a1c053 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21133cb256ea276ff4e21d1536953a56.pdf cce08689e5242d6e7e7d634dd0c3e75f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Jacob Rozema (00:58:22) (00:19) • Born in the Netherlands • Moved to the United States in 1930 during the Depression (00:45-01”15) • Explains the family income (01:33) • Did not follow the war in Europe much before American entry. (02:00) • Brother went back to the Netherlands to fight in the Dutch Army, and became a prisoner of war when the Nazis took over (02:28) • Did not want to join the army immediately after Pearl Harbor because he did not know what it was exactly • He enlisted after they realized the impact (02:55) • Rejected from the army due to flat feet and glasses • He was slightly disappointed (03:53) �• Joined up as a medic because he wanted to help people, and because he really did not want to kill people (04:07) • Trained in Illinois at Camp Grant for three months, basic training • Moved on to Fort Knox in Kentucky for medical training (04:52) • Trained to do anything that was necessary to do on the battlefield to ensure survival (05:08) • Always under the supervision of a doctor, they were not trained to do surgeries, but they did amputations and treated diseases and shell shock, etc. (05:34) • Went to California for more extensive training (06:00) • Went to Oakland to do training for duties over seas • Happy about it because it gave his training more of a purpose (06:20) • 1942-43 winter sent over seas with 18,000 soldiers to Australia • Received more training here (07:31) • Went to New Guinea • Received hot climate and tropical disease training here (08:09) �• Gave out a lot of aspirin and antibiotics for Malaria and such • Describes his duties to fight the tropical diseases, mumbles most of the names of medications (08:49) • Treated patients with shell shock and other mental issues • Not a lot of wounded or dying people involved in his beginning work (09:30) • Treated Malaria, kidney stones, etc • Mostly kept people for only 3 days (09:51) • Was with the 148th Station Hospital (09:56) • Evacuation hospital more for wounded people and a station hospital more for the people with shell shock and people coming down with the mental issues, giving them rest away from the killing mostly (10:48) • Met a few people from Holland (11:13) • Saw a lot of graveyards with the dog tags on the little makeshift posts for the dead soldiers, many unnamed (12:26) • (13:00) Was with the 148th station hospital for 14 months, which moved around a lot �• Describes New Guinea as hot • Used New Guinea natives to do most of the work because they were used to the heat (13:44) • Jacob doesn’t remember a lot of the details about natives, except the head hunters (14:24) • Became a ward master, sometimes supervised more then two wards at once (15:00) • Switched to an evacuation hospital, because he wanted to help people more and did not feel he was really helping people at the station hospital (15:23) • Evacuation hospital in New Guinea in 1944 (16:22) • People came to the evacuation hospital from different areas of the war in the Pacific (17:00) • Went into enemy territory with a unit as medics for the front (18:00) • Caught in the middle of a skirmish and his unit proclaimed dead, but they got out and survived (19:19) • (19:40) Philippine Islands is where the skirmish happened �• Trouble remembering about his experiences (20:12) • Went to Manila with the 71st regiment (??) • A lot of heavy fighting and work (20:32) • No set hospitals, medics just ran out into the battlefield and grabbed the people that could be saved and dragged them behind the lines (21:49) • Had little shops for the shell shock patients to keep them busy so they could recuperate and take their minds off of things (22:29) • Became a hospital chaplain • Played the organ and sang, and helped set up the churches for prayer services (23:40) • Had to search through dead bodies sometimes to get to people they could take back to the hospital area to save, saw countless dead bodies (24:16) • Treated Japanese soldiers too (24:27) • Took care of the Japanese patients, even though many other soldiers wanted them to be killed (24:55) • He was doing all this very close to the front lines in Manila �(26:59) • Was on the boats ready to invade mainland Japan on the island of Kyushu when he found out the war was over (27:50) • Did not believe that the war was over, then he heard about the bombs that were dropped (28:31) • Does not think that the bombs were a good idea to be dropped on all the civilians, but was happy that there was no need for a land invasion anymore (28:37) • Stayed in Japan for two months, found them to be very friendly (29:12) • Amazed at how the Japanese treated the P.O.W.s, but were still so nice and accommodating (30:00) • He was invited over to a Japanese family’s house for dinner • He stepped on their table, and was very upset that it was their dinner table (31:05) • Only treated soldiers while in Japan (32:11) • He commented on how the Filipino people were very happy to see the Americans even though they were all skin and bones, starving (34:47) �• Went swimming and the next day the place was swarming with sharks (37:14) • Japanese went for the medics in battle because they were believed to be as good as killing seven soldiers in one, which made the medics job harder and more dangerous (37:39) • Did not wear the red crosses in the Pacific portion of the war for that reason above (38:15) • While hiding in a fox hole during his mission that ended badly he hid in a fox hole that had about half a dozen decaying bodies of the Japanese (38:55) • He did not loot the bodies, but many people did loot bodies, for gold and stuff (40:05) • Got Malaria, they wouldn’t let him go, but he insisted that he wanted to be home for the 1945 Christmas (40:37) • Did not get compensation for his hearing loss due to the disease because he left (43:20) • Had a pet monkey but he had to leave it behind when he returned to the States (44:31) • Kept a detailed journal about what he was doing as a medic and his experiences, but he thinks someone stole it because he lost it before he returned to the States �(44:48) • The Japanese general Tojo was taken to the hospital that Jacob worked at, he was taken care of for stab wounds to the stomach which was characteristic of the suicide actions taken by the Japanese, but general Tojo failed in his attempt, after he recuperated he was hung for war crimes (46:08) • Mass graves in Manila, with civilians, Filipino women and children • He was disgusted by how the Japanese treated the people of the islands (48:27) • His belief in god kept him going and staying strong and sane because he knew it was his duty and mission to be there and help people (49:17) • Was not married before he left for the war (50:30) • Married in 1964 after they sold a retirement home he owned • Has a happy family (51:58) • Used to be jumpy with loud, sudden noises after he returned home (52:50) • War didn’t really change his outlook on life, he said, because he always wanted to help people and always did (53:50) �• Found his old medical notes and told stories about he was supposed to forget the details and such (55:13) • Hospital unit assigned to the 150th infantry regiment, there was some confusion in the interview about this �_....--~-----~.., xx :1 • ' ----- .......... .__ TIlE DUTY .\S CHAPLAIN IN THE ARMY OF THE U.3 •• PH>\sE !.!.:CVERSEAS IN. nIE ~ .W.PAOIFIC. WITH THE 71'st EVACUATION HOSPITAL, MARC::H.1944-­ NOVEMBER, 19~'· ... NEW-\lUINEA. MARCH. '4.4--J!ll•• ) ... ....-- ../ '4ft. was, The first atep of our overee8:S movement. nr eourse. our tra.in ride fro", Corv"g.1is,Oregon, to our staging area, O*aP JJtO~rftou~dct/,(t~~~JLJJBi ah &J>-.ciIIDld P1ttsburg,undoubtedly because of the large steel mU ':& in that vicini:l)·. We Were here about a Week or ten days to get ready for our oversea trlQvement. Each of us was giv:en his clothing allotment an" other gear. Minl­ -, mttm unit equipment was designated for our b>spit.al. And again each of .us . 'nad to paas a physical exam and be brought up-to-date with immunizations. All chaplains in t.he Tarious units in the sta.ging a.rea attend," a :br·iefil:Dgl·::,~· sc:ssion held in t.he st..Jll'anci,. lfotel in San Prancisco. In addition We "'ore talc to a depot at a S.P. ~.,here each chaplain dre, bis overseas equipment·,in­ cl~ding a portable field organ, a bOx ot hymn-books, an altar set: and even a Jeep. All th·1s would be placed for U8 on board our ship and to be claimed. by us when we would eventually disembark somewbere in the S.W.Pacl~ic. When the time came for our unit, togebher with several others, to board a Libert.y Ship which vas to take us to an unknown destination. this operation _came a :rather moving exp8f'lence. Each of us, carrying on his back a large duffel bag f\l1l 9f personal belongings, moved in a column under­ neAth an arch over which in large letters was the signlUThrough these P9rtals pass the best soldiers in the World·. And all of this was to the aCCoM98,ni­ ment o~ a military band playing martial musio. !hus, n5 we ascended the gang­ plank into the hold o~ the ship, we felt like we were starting out on our ~ble crusade. ' • Our destination,· even 1f it were known to t.he higher bran. was not revealed to us as we . .bar~. f"or obvious reasons. But eac.P of us was per­ mitted to phone his family and tell them that we were at the.point of leaving the ~bte&. Bu't of course, here too, it would have been foolha.rdy to have given the folkS baCk home any other information than 'just that. Whore -w.. ; were headed ~or was not to ld tIII.;1It. &.DIy time during \lt1e 1.'bJlg.\'mir.ell.banl-at Mb'.lIOnth voyage across the Pacific. 1Qward the end of the journey rumor had it that ' it'might be Australia. And then again it was. some islanp in the S.W~Piclflc, o~ whioh there was an untold number. Sb no one really knew, except a rew higher-ups. Actually,~~80meda'te early in·~l'4~ we lande~ at ~~f"e ~ which is at t.he extreme eastern tip at the island or NewGu1.nea~'1 can st.ill remember the ~irst night. after ws landod and had set up our tents under swaying palm trees. Tropical birds of every", dflscription chirped and ~hat.tered and made a racket all night. long. W. knew that we were in the trop~cs.too, because of the heat and the humidity. We' stayed at. this location for several weeks,perhaps even a month, during which time we gpt.\more 'fully equipped with what it would take to funotion as an Evacuation Hospital. While we waited . for orders to mv. on)we had ample time to play g&lIles)such as volley-ball and baseball,and to take hikes. ~jor Arthur Salguero,our unit medical adminis­ trative officer and I usually teamed up for 8uch exploratory hikes. Once on such a tramp we encountered a Datl~e l~bor-batt.alion cutting down underbrush under the watchful ~upervision at a",eel Australian lltO:diers. . ' . In early lul" '44,ve hed~-bopped to the WakdlL~sarmi area, not far from :f8.DxJu~ Hollandia,where General ~c1rthut had his huadqual"ters at that time. Here, through 0 bservation at an already funcUon!ng Evc.euation Hos­ pital, mema.ecrsl of our un! t learned how we lIIQuld b. ,",xpeCited to function at some later time. At that t1Jlle t.Ms area. was atill til t.he combat Zone. A few tim- wile here we had to ·hit·.~ur fox-boles when we received air-raid alarms and heard eXploaions as 'the Japs dropp.w~.bs. We learned afterwards that they were trying to hit an airfield wh!C1i" we had taken from them on a small island just off-sbore from where we were. We dug our foxboles large enough tor tlillD perlOU to &et. into. I still remember how I jumped into a fox-hole already occupied by another one of our off1cers, and how during such an air-raid I .- J �-,-r­ as our bodies touched, we could teel eachother tr8lllble. OUr snit WIlS e1tua'ted in au area adjacent to the veteran 1,& Re~meDtal Oombat Team--hariened soldiers who had already been in battle JIUlny times. &at one ni!ht, even they.alon,; with our own personnel, were 1!I)st. apprehensive, tor not taJ away we could hear shootin~ !pin~ on. There was fear that some J~ .ay have in­ filtrated into our area and that they were shootin! at U8. I can still re.em\er seeln~ 80me of these veteran intantrymen dressed in full combat par seated on th~ ed~e. of their bunks, alert anll ready, with loaded rines in hand and ready to 3U11 into action if' and when any order were pven. !ut soon the shoot1n~ stopped and everyone was more relaxed. The next 'IIOrnin~ we learned what had happenened. There had been no infiltration of Japs, but at m1dni~ht, durln~ the chanr;int; of our own ~ard, so.e of ollr own soldiers, \e11evin,; tha~ such infiltration va.s taklns plac~ had mistakenly shot at. e..chother. In this exohan&8 one of our own soldiers had bee killed. A trapc mistake, ot course. IMrins thi . . . .e hectio ni@;ht, in drenchin~ rain, Oaptain Bins,our gnit psychiatri.t,bad "een jiven an order by our cOlIII&ndln~ oftioer to tp to a certain location in our area to deliver a meB8a~. In tryinl to carry out hi • •i8s1on, as he slushed throu,;h deep wnid~, he slipped and fell into a partially filled foxhole. With 'this shootins r;olnl on nearby he dill not dare to tr to set out ancl stayed there until daybreak--an experience which he no doubt wou14 never forrt. This s. .e n1~t amther one of our lIIedical oN"1cer. went beserk,pre. sumably lteoa1lse he coul" Wt endure t.he ,tres. of illllinent danler. fte vas likely t victim 01' what 1s called battle tatl~e • Cons.quently he was 1IIOved to a lIOre qui area,ani we did not see him apin until some lIlOnths later,when we were ln the Mani area in the Philippines. And there we found that he was now fully recovered. and 1rJ charp of' a ward. 1n one at our m1litary bospi~le. The 158 eollkt 1'eaa bad only reoently been relieved f'or a rest after -: they had. been fghtinl a group ,,1' tall Japanese Inper1al aarines. Jape are u8_11,. short in stature, but these were all tall. 1b relieveithea, a certain regiment of the Sixth Divis10n had. \een pulle" in,who.e speolal as.isn-ent was~to capture a certain airfield still held by the Japs. !dt betbre the, were committed to \attIe, 1I_\ers ot the 158 Oo."at 'l'. ....-yeteran. 1n f'ightbl! .the Jap.--tr1ed to warn lIembe of this reliev1nc unit reprdint; the encirollng tao'tbs thaVthla Bit 01' the enemy otten used. But. offloers of" t.he Sixth DividoD icmrecl thi. advice,' with the reeul that the Ja,. ,layed t.he ..... trick and. ln1'liotea heaVy casualties on tho wh.n tb atteapted to take the airfield. It vas s.veral: days att.er the battle before per­ sonnel .on our side were able to set into the area where the ~att.le had race4 in order to recover the bodies 01' oar dead for burial. I"oan still remember seeins th reCO'very teaa brincinl ln IIOlIIe sixty corp.,. for burial in I. .akeehU't cemetery, The steneh was almost unltearable. "-e bad ·now .eeD..w1th our own eyes the cost. of . com\at. In a history 01' vart'are in the Paoifio.I" read that· the battle f'or the c.p' ture of' this ,articttlar airfield. held. Dy the .,lap. was.at a looation oalle4 Lone Tr· Mill. By the eveninl of 27 May, '44, the 15& aoaltat Teaa bad lost. ~OO 1dlled,.,;)IotMe, or evaototate" .as non-battle casl.lalt1es(such as h.at-exhaust1()n). The Sixth Infantry Divis1on, w~ich vent. in on reliet on 14 Jde, D1 the end of their operation lest 1, aenkUlecl, 8,0 .,unded and evaouate"(I1&:ny trolil s~1tn888,heat exhaU8tion and ,syche somatic di80rier8~. The Ja,s lost ,00 kill••. and ~:·wounded. The next jump f'0J' us in our 'hedge..tiop,inS'· was to &111lC) at the extreme west end 01' New Chin.a, in the so-called Dutch' ,.trt,tei a '8JIlall island in the Gel ... vinck Bay, lfoead'bor. A. few da,.. \efore we JIUlde ow aaphi1tious landinf there the 1~ Co••aT." '1'. . had already arrived by pa~h\lte ancl· .leo in an amph bious landinr;. Their, prt.ar;yobjeotive wad to takeanalrfield fro. ~he Jape f'rom which they bad been flyinl,.sortle. alainst ue. Ke~e, we wer~oJ'Clered 'to set up shop as a b;)spital and to z:eoelve aD4treat any oasualties of-i:tu!' trcto,. trolll this figbtinl. Fortunat' 1y, cas.~ltles were relatively ll~ht.. Neverheles.,t.h&re were enou~ to require us to set several pyramUal tents to care tor the 'ft)\lnded. Several Ja,s who bad fIt into'the jlUll[lfts, al80 wera brought in to us to b. treat". In addition _ny 1n40· nesians an~;~rmosans whom the .,la,s ware .sinl as laborere, and wbo were terribly .alnouri.sh" and diseasedJ ltecqe patients in bch,ltal. These and tbe Ja, pria­ onere wer.e kept. in separaT.e wards 1n our ho.p1".. aac! were of course unier conistan1 pr~., "Th"7 ~re, all terribly unkempt and emaclat..d,.,so th'tt th..~ ware cleaned UPI delous.d" ...~~ liven SOlle proper food. Our oper!!1tlo~n.lbemfoor bland were ao­ tually ~re extensive than 1 have deecrlbedabove. 1618"oan be seen from a p.,er whleb I r.cently discovered. in JIll _tUest 'ateel 1 'Jamaa~, 1945. ThiS docuaent was eent to our hospital by ftKADQ;t1ARTDS SIxTll ARMY, A1'O 442,GENlRAL ORDRI,lb.l,a ,art. of which read. as follow.. (sae next pa~e) -, 1­ a19"" tI, QUr �....- "::"' -57~­ ~A ~~ITORIOUS SSRVIO! UNIT PLAQUE is awarded by the Commandin~ General,Sixth Army to the follow1nl; unitJ I"at ivacl.l9.tlon Kosplta!<Sem). Jl'roW16 July to 1 Deee••er 1944 the 7"st Evacuation Hospital baRdl" all llIedical services and .u,~ly on Noemfoor Island, Dutch New GI.llnea. The hospital was operated at full, 400 lied oa,ulty within fOUT days atter arrival on I>-DIly plu8 six. A 'totlll of 2.~2 patienta, includ1nS 14, Japaneae prllOnera, were tTeated in three month's tillle with a mortality rate of only three-tenth. of one percent. The hospital ef­ ficiently maintained and operated a llIedieal sup~ly depot for the entire island. The organization al80 coBr.inated, adalai.ter"; and oparated evacuation facili­ ties, evacyatlng 1,011 patienta. Deapite the many o88tacl.s encountered, inelud­ in! enemy air raids, shorta~e of peracnUlel, lon& hours of lIOrk, and inclelllent weather, the orticers and llIen of this unit have displayed the most exemplary ini­ tiative,energy and devotion to duty. They have maintained the higheat standards of efficiency,discipline, and morale and have contribu~d greatly to the succe.s of this operation. By oo_ncl ot Lieutenan.t General JCRUEGs::R." In a few days afte., our JOD wit.h them wa.·tinl~n.4: ~hey. were -.t.aken ellewhere a. our prisoners and p08sibly used as labOrers, but of course always under ~ard. One day a soldier of the 158 Oombat Team who was a patient in our hos­ pit.al came to me in my chaplain tent-office with his problem. He had not been wounded. Nevertheless he had \een sent to our hospit.al ~ecau8e he had discover­ ed that the muscles of his arms and shol.llders had suddenly become tight. and rigid. preventing him f~m lifting his rifle. H1s commanding orricer, no dOUbt, believed that. this soldier was .al1ngerln~ and was perhaps dellierately rakln~ his ina\111­ ty to perform hi- duty as an infantryman. Our hospital medical offieer. dia~­ noeed his difficulty as what waa then called ·~attle fatigue". This means that that they believed he had developed a physical disability '.cause of fear of the poe.iil1lty of ~ettinl killed in COlllbat. 1bdey psychiatrists ~uld .ay that his was a ease of ·conversion hysteria." I Deliev. that. he c.... to llIe with hi. probl.m because he had come to suspect --and ri~h~lly 8O--that hi. problem had it. roots in the moral and re­ 11g10u. Deliefs he held. Me told llIe that this IO-call.d p~ralysia came on him suidenly ,after he had shot a Japanese soldier. MOreover, he said he knew that he had killed him because he saw him topple over. s.,ha.izing his beliet that all kll1in~ is murder, even when it takes place ln co.iat, he repeated the sixth Oom­ mandment t "Thou shalt not kill," and .aid he· felt. that abd ~uld hold him eter­ nally responsible fbr having .1Oken ~his commandmeat in killin! this Jap. I ask­ ed him next whether this was a recent .eU.t 0 f hiS, or whet.her, when he was ...­ in! called up into service, he already held this viev. His anewer w.s that he always ~elleved this. I then told him that if this vere so, why did he not de­ clar. himself aa a conschntioua o.jactor frolll the start, 80 that then th.y oould have placed him 1n a non-collliat unit rather than in the infantry. H11 answer to that was that he bad not done so .ecause he did not want to appear to 'e a Shirke-,­ or a cowarcl. 01ear1y he hael a ~llt complex "ca\&•• of what he had done. And noW his Dody was com1nC to hie asdstance 1n cau.lng that very part of his bod; ..­ apecially involved in lhooting to be incapacitat.d ~ conversion hy8teria. I IIlW wy duty elearlt to lte to t.ry, if at all po . . iile, to rid him of his ~llt co.­ plex. I also saw that at this Ita!e 1n hi. military career it would do no !ood for him to declare himselt to ie a conecientious 0 Itjector with the that havinr; done 80 he might. be transferred to lOme aon-comiat unit. MillMJot •.\ltb;)rit1ea 'C)uIel refuse to 40 80 anyway, ieUevin! that he waa only a mal1n!erer tryinr; to avoid hAzardous duty. !net 8Q this 18 the 1o!1c I \& •• 4 with hi.. I told him that to ie lure there i. alway. r;u.Ut conneot.d witn. the killinC of any bl.llll&n teinS. I alao told hi. that I a&r.ed with hia, of couree, that a Japan••• soldier 18 a h"'n ieinc. But I declared my.elf as tel levin! that the guilt of all such killin~ In armed com.at is to be \orne iy the n ationa Involvect in .\&c1'1 com_at, and not ~y the· individual 1IOlcUer. who do the kill1l'll. Th. 80141er is only the "agent" of the (00 nUnuecl, next pa~e) ha. ho,•• �-~­ r,overnaent. llnd it. 18 the &overnlllent. t.hat. _eare ~he responsl_iHty find ~1lt.. I told him thnt in 8hoo~in~ t.his part.icular Japanese soldier he was only C8r­ ryin~ out hie duty as a soldier. ~rthereore I told pim that. when this Japan­ eee soldier appearee .efore h1Jll it wes likely t.haV-ti;e~r t.h • .Ia, would \e killd. or \ath. HIs Jcl11in~ could rI,htly Ite aaid to haTe been clone 1n Maolf cietenae.· (The reader of my story oan lIeoide tor hiJIIself whether he considers my rea80nin~ in ~hi. ca •• to have ~.en sound, or whether 1t ... • erely a convenient rationalization to justlty war .n~ killinl that tak•• plac. 1n war). In any ca.e I looke' upon it as my duty to tree .y 5014i8r­ patient ot his ~11t complex, it at all posaible, SO t.hat h. al~t. •• reliev­ •• of hia hyateria and his aoeompanyins pby_leal incapacity. Wbether or not .y oounae1l1n, leuiona(for I ha4. more then one with him) really helped hi. I do not re.....r. But in tbe .eant.lme I ha4 con­ terencea "ith the aeaieal teu of our hospital. Inc~udin~ Cspt.Bin!, our unit ,sychiatrist, a~ut this 501111er. They acr." that wy lo~ic with thls soldier wae warrante•• and they fUrthermore .xpr•••• d themselves of the ltelier that atter a period of rest away troll the strell of co.ltat it would be ponltle to send this soldier .ack to hil unit. How the authorities in hi. ~nit interprete. our consolidate. report on this eol«l.r ... how they followe4 1t up I have no way of kno"in~1 ItLlt at least "'. had clone what we coul. with and for hia. Att.r the airfi.ld on Nbellfoor I.laD4 had .een eaptured and the Jape had ••en -appei up our en«ineerl l.n&tbene' ita runways 80 that they cou14 'e uncl Ity our 8-29 \oa.en to 1'11' .i"lone to hit the lti,; 011 installations which the Japs haa in !brneo, and th~. to orlpple thea 1n the where-withal to fi~ht. ~t when our :8-29_ were to take off fro_ the Nete.foor airt'1.a With their heavy ~mb loads there was ,;reat .an~.r. it they bad tl"Oultle pttin~ air~rae, that they Ili~ht crash into our ho.,ital area--for we were looatscl ri~bt 1n t.heir p..th. A.D« so whenever they were tp1n~ ~ 't,ake o'ft we were al ..rtecl ahead of t.ime, an4 .. mucb as Possible w. lIIO.e' to the 8ille of their fU~bt. ,ath. ~r­ t~at.11 noae of these planee ever .r•• ~ Oft take-off. I .till r ••••ber that I clicl;~(tlciate at tb. iurisl of a few infantrymen who •• re. .ln. we lald to rut ~n t.he tempou!'1 .ilitary celletery on ICoellf'oor Illan'. We were at thts looation fro. e.rly July. 1944 until early JanMary. 194,. when "e w.re destlne. to move to lO.e ,art of the Phili,pine I.landl. AB. aln•• it waa anticipat" that our landin! there woula ln all likelihood ~e an amphl\10u8 one, it wa. considere. illportant that while we were .till 1n N.w Gu1nea~-oulG \e ",.11 t.hat we should h.... a -trial r~n· for th1s type of laDd1n,. To ~t lI. rea.y fbI' lhh our unit,aptt..r with several oth.rs, .&tIe ...eh a ,ncUee lan.in~ on Japen I.laDd. ju. . .tt ~ coaat ot New Guinea, ane not rar tro. where we then wer.. '!'hie wa. to ,ive eYeryone in such an o,eration an 14ea or hew thlS wa. to \e dOlle 1n an effill ••t .anner. the navie-tora of' the LS'1'. were to l.arn how to _aeawer their cra1't, an.« .11 pereoftnel were to learn bow to eli•• down ro,. la.,den -t",n, over the elie or the veuel. with full pa.eks atr",pe. on our .boulier., an' how to wad. to .hor. throl.lt;h walat or sbololl.er-dee, water. So now we w.re read,. for the next cha,ter 1n our e. .palp in the S.W. Pacitle. We will t.ll that ator, ••• we r ••••ber it, 1n the next . ~,t«"... 8. Tim P!ILIPPINI LIBERATION O.ucPlIGlf--JANlJARl-AUGUST. 1945 , NOw a~aln, j",at like .e did not know our exact or eTen ,ro.a.te •••­ tiftatton when w. le1't SaD hanc!.aco. 80 h.r. a'81n we not know,enroute, Where we were .e.tlne' to mak. that u,hlltio~a lanainl for wblch we be. hac 0\0' ,racthe i,.i11. Ve offh.r. of the units on ~arcl 0\11' transport expertene­ e. the l",xl.lry of eatt.a, with' the fta"T ott1eer. ill th.ir •••• aDCl reHah•• the ••at 1'00. that w. hael he« tor eo•• U... W no .o ••t all p.reonn.1 \etter ,on ioarll ship than "e whU. atill 1n lev lAtinea. W. baci. now lisen at .ea tor eolle ia,s. W. knew when 'I. hili r ...oh" the PhUl"in• • • •n w. . . w our IIhtp mY1n,; ~.t".en 1011. of tbe naerO\lS idaM. tpt aake u, thh oountry. Our first. i"kline that .e were ."roac~ftI a po.. tlth kttle Cone wa. when we It.pD 1 J ..ein! 10•• ot our own ca.aar4 ship. whioh pre.... U" taali .e.ft 1n 110 . . . . nl '-7 Ii'" ha. fare. �remember that I was asked by acme mellibers of a Philippine Baptist church to conduct a service in their church. They were overflowin~ with exhuber&nce because of their liberation from the Japanese. Thr.r hailed us as heroes and 11 ber.tor.,.. I weIR. about my duties as a chaplain in our hospital vis1tin~ at the be.sides of lar&e numbers or the ~~nde~ and maimed that were sent to U8 from variou8 forwar4 COlllba.t unite. Besides trying to brin! them whatever . comfort 1 could by chattinl with them and offer1nl prayers for them where this was appropriate, I found that there was a. very practieal 8~rvlce I could render I18.ny of them. Some of these soldiers were 80 IIIllnt;ltd. and shot up the.\· they ware either psycholot;ically of physically unable to write to their loved ones Dack in the States to tell them what had happened to them. Menee. 8. they told their stories to me, I WOl.llcl talce notes,. They then invariably ber;­ ed. lI.e to write to tho hollS folks on their behalf. And of course I prolll1sed to do 80. Iobre orten than !'lOt before the day wa" over I had written those lotter. for them. A. touehin~ thln~ which I 0 b8erve~hat./if t.hey had been ~unded ratb~r badly, such as losins an 8ra or a leI, they then wanted. me to be sure not to exa!t;erate their condition in the me8Sat;eS which I was to write for thom. They did not want to shock a wife,_ parent or a sweetheart back home or cause them to worry about them. Such pllantryl When we were atill 1n the ~8ar1o & Damortl. area. &uards were po sted at ni~ht at the pe!limeters and throughout ol.lr bivouc areas to ap­ Frehand any Jape who might attempt to infiltrate. 10 detect whether anyone movin~ in the area was friend or foe the p... s-word was ehant;ed each nl~ht. There was a chaplain who belonged to one of the units who was hard of hearin&. One night when he IJPt up from his bunk to ~ to the latrine a t;U8.rd ehfll' lenged him to ,ive the pass-word. Evidently he did not hear the challenge, or at least he did not respond. As a result the guard let him have it. and he was shot to death. It is one thing to lOllS personnel at the hands of the enemy. but doUbly tragic when death Co~e! as the ~e8ult of' such an apparently unnecessary mistake. (now gp to pat;e to) , ... . �Jr. a liffiited wey I hurl e Lr-eady bCf.;un thi::; l<:tter ..Jdtinr; s e r-v Lc e \ihen ct Ll l in New Guinf1&. ~l.1t the period when I \'Ias to do this j n much i"rcat'3T vo Iune ~/a3 i...hen we received heavier c1i8W11ties fro~1 the fighting der", by the 37'th Di v Ls Io n and the 1 1 s t ~av'.lry Division in the re-tal.inG of t he city of'Vr.nila. That was in January,Fo:lcrunry e.nd ~1flrch -:;f 19'1';'. D..iring th·~t period, even t.bo ugh I '1ould write such letters from 11i)' notes until Lat,e ~nt0 the night, I sometimes fell two or three days behind roy schedule in get­ t i :J6 of'f rr:y letters f'or our wounded patients. I still have on file several t;,-.lchin;;- letters which r received from folks back home to who!!! I had writt.en 3u~h letters. There were also times when it was my sad juty to inform loved o ne s about th~ de e.t.h of a soldier-patient. In those cases 'tlhere I conducted a burl!:.l service for such men(and it was in ~race Parbl.!B.nila, that I held ffiany $uch services) I let the folks back home~~e Scriptures rod prayers I h~d used in such committal services. This brou~h~ from them letters of' th~nks. One such letter I still treasur.e because of it; d-eep felt expr es sdo n or gr9.H­ tude for the service I had rendered in this manner. But once while We Were st:ll stati~ned in ~~nila I was reprimanded, or at least cautio~ed. through channel s , to be careful not to be so prompt, in writing to the families of deceased soldiers. The reason given me wes: that in some instances my me3sage had reached the family before the offictal word had re&ched them from the \'!ar Department. Thereafter I did not -have to feel that I was remiss in T'JY duty in delaying getting off my messages to the home folks, even if I person­ ~l'y felt th~t I Was sometimes two or thre~ days behind my own schedule in do In; so. nut it gave me gref.lt d es l of satisfaction to 1:110\01 that in wh9.t othen-tide mig:ht be a rather impersonal world I could render this reo r-e personal 5ervice. It was the least that I could do. Our Amerie~n llber~ting army had now pretty well pushed any remaining Japanese troops into the hills where they would be mopped up and away from the main cobblestone highway which leads down to i-fanila. h noW the way was open for the major units that were to besiege V~ni1a from behind(i.e.,from the north !.tnd....east) to move on to their objective. 'l'he rOl:l.Q W&S now ja!lllued wi~h army vehicles of every description and troops steadilY.ll'lOvin!r down this corridor. One day &9 we were doing so word was sent on ahel:l.d to us th~t General ~~c Arthur himself and his staff ~ere not very far behind Ud, and that - we get off the road to both sides to fet him pass in his triurr.phe.l mer ch or ride into the city in fulfillment of the promise he hue made three years before, when he had left the Philippines, when he had said: "I \il) 1 return". '3:> here he came and r.is staff with him. He was seated in a command C!2.r ... hd c h na tur e l Iv had on it his stars of r ank and flying his General's flai;'. It and its e ccom­ p3ning vehicles moved past us so quickly, however, that I barely caught ti glil'!pse of him, corncob pipe in his mouth. and his jaw jutting out in ib usual d et.e rmi.ned manner. He was indeed returning, as he had seid he would do I As our party approached the outskirts of the city a. sco ut f ng pa r t.y from our unit had been sent on ahead to select ~ suitable pIece for U3 to set up our Evacuation Hospital. The site which was chosen was at the extr~me east­ ern outskirts of the city. There ~/as a beer brewery on one side 0 f the road and a tannery on the other side, but a bit up~ on a small knoll. The tan­ nery wag chosen as the place where we yhi~t up our hospital. Here were some b~ildings Which, after cleaning them up,were converted into the operating-rooms part of our hospital. But the wards for the recovering patients of our hospiysl ~Iould as usual be our large pyramidal tents with- cots to serve for patient's beds. >\fter all we were a semi-mobile unit. But at the very edge of our a r eu ~II:'S an artillery liost. Sever~l large 50 mm artillery guns had been set !-IP on thi3 bluff which were almost constantly lobbing their bi~ shells ilrto the heart of the city. For the Japs had barracaded th~mselves in the IHrge l:l.nd rror e sturdy stone and brick buildings there, 80 it was necessary for our artillery to ~ batter them down before the infantry could storm them and burn the Japs out with flame throwers and MOp up with rifle fire. I c&n still re­ W(; ;~ere �t;l~ tL\s bt13J' 3~} ";'jr...l.:>.:1..II::. ";o~ld not !·ut-L..i es o u r e s r d r-ums , ?ut ",,{:r. ~.:; ..''.; .o u Ld t,)' }-:t us from pcr:'orwing OlU' i.",,_j.Jiti.,l d.ut t e a , '\'e W~:l" 1':>0 which were brou.;ht to us not v(JIy ly It;.,:·ulttnc<,,,; ~.ut i r tt:tWlpilj~: [...,.i.~~ ~::ef;jp tr,,;,t.1",~ ~El:::uli.lties kinca 0 f'lIehtcles. :):Jr hospitlil operated at full capllcity in th1s bctiltion in Mar,i1~ d u r Inr: Dart of the month of J,\nuary, during all of' F~bruary and part of Y.arch, ., . " 194'". This was the busiest time for 1.18 in our overseas operations. ve knew !i.h~"lld o f time that we would be receiv1ng many more patients than we JttO; had ever had before beClluae we knew that the f'et8.king of the city of Manila would involv intense fighting. with neither aide taking prieonerl. We aleo knew that the wounds whieh our soldiers would suffer lIOuld. be vor •• tl;w.n we bAd needed to tre at any t1me previously. That is also why, during this period, a brain surgeon had bean hdded to our surgical staff, tor we anticipated that there would te m~ny severe head injuries. It was soon olear that it had been wise that we had this ~~L~ented staff. All medics 1nd surgeons and their helpers were ~ept ~u~y a ro und the clock for these weeks while the siege of' Manila went on. Aa a chaplain I certainly also knew what to do. It was here th9.t I Wii! busier with rr.y ministrations to the ~unded and the sick than at 'lny time while o ver aea s , '.'{hen the doctors and surgeons had done what they could with tLe wour.ded they were laid out on litters 1n an area between the operatin~ rooms ~n the wards the..t. were to r ec e Lve them. I wollid circulate !,'l.!lX)r.g these littets ,c;ivi:~g such cOl'!'fort as I could to allay there anxieties and fears. Uso r,was ?erdHed to of~er cold drinks from our hospital reefer(refrigerEttor) t.o non­ 3urgicll pati"nts, and perh8.ps light cigarettes for those who were perrr.Hted to have them, to help quiet their r.erves. Each litter was so ta~fed that I would ~no·.-J bow to CMI with the person on 11'.. Pbr those thl".t had been zo ved into eJU' hos?ital lisrus I not only tried to :>r1ng whatever cheer I could by mea ne o f' c~nvers~tion ~nd prayer. where it was p13usible, but here my 4etter ~riti~g to Lovec ones bacl<: in the States on behs If' of the more seriously wounded ... as ~,t H, peak. I remember needing to write these letters until lat~ into the ni~ht i~ order to keep up this service. Zarlier when I descr1b~d our Tarl~c op~ratio~s ".c1 went into some details regarding this service. U this time, too, !'t very active end efficient Red :r"5'~ Di r e c to r l'y the :1'.. me of .;l .. nc ey , WllS 'lttached to our ho"pit,'I. He lind T f'r e quer.t Ly :':J::.dt: tr1:)5 l.y veb i c Le to a Red Sross warehouse where we o b t a i r.e d 'i l s r-ge v a r i e t.y of' '"h,t ',;_·1"e c e Tl ed ncom~o:'t items" which we gave out '..0 o ur F ~ier.ts gr vt.Ls , To::., ~ften it he,e be zn sb.id th'it the Hed Oross only so Ld H,;:",!!:) to so Ld Le r s , I can Jay 'J,)1t pc s Lt Lve Iy t hc t, '1-.13 cel·t""inly was not th~ case in our op6re.ticn.3,)~.e c f" t l.-. tt1ingq we gave Ollt we r e s tooth brushes arid to,':'t~·It>,-,st·~,r·-"ors,~h,;i:'l~ c r e vm , l:'t~r-f:hl1..,e lotion,combl>J,cigsrettes, corn-cob jJij::r:!s( !;ti:r... L~t=d,n) ':o'Jt·t. by our cO:lm),n:':er 3en'1 ~~ttC Arthur's f.;rofile) s Io r.g ',~i'th s:""oldnf, tobP.CCO.0CCl:iS1.:'1, 'Illy J:.ne cig:.rs, end even plug'f;;j chewing tob::.cco, i:' » nyo ne wRnted it. T3Jt it ,",,0-11.:: :'01. hs v e been discreet for !Ue to h't"~ eiv'~n 'OIny 0" th"t OJ'I. t.o pctients in 0,,1' r.v~t'it1:Jl. Jn our previous overseas operations as a hospit&.l our:::;.:;. had r e Fu s e d tv h~v~ ,~eric':ln female nurses on cur staf"', Whatever his r e s so n was , i1ut no v , be e-rus e of the ~r,~at need for no r e nurses some Phillppioo nurses were t ake n en :0 ~'J~'.,jlement our staff. ~"e really needed them, and they were a g rea t help. Of co ur s e I held Protest13nt church services re!?;lJlarly, :it,tended bv member, of' o ur stJf: 'ino to.mb-..ll.:ltory patients. .\nd for our bedfast patients I" tad d evo t Io ns ut bed sd d e whe~ r e que s t ed or when it seemed fitting. Every mllit"l~Y chaplain is ;hi.l,rg~d wit. the responsibility of' making arrangements for r c l Lz Io us ministrlitio: r o r :'\.1 per sor.n(!l. Hence I contacted Oatrol1c chaplains from other units t:> hole: masses. Silt because JeWish chaplainl were very scaroe, several of the M.D. on our st'iff w~ were JeWish volunteered to take care of the needs of' t he J j\ ish personnel • . �-' " \ ..,~lii WIn 01': \of ,",. e:=::" ~ i~ When our trocps entered the city of 1·1anila one of the first r la c e s t.hey I i b.~nted was a place called Sant._ T)IOm' • • ~ re.ia 4q~Siat:B 1.... ~hi!l weq a University,.. 'PH • .\t any rate it waa in the building of this int-U­ t ~:;2; u llt • \of: f~ C tuBon that the Jape had held as prisoners ma.ny ,J,mericllns who hnd served in the 011 J.::i~ i?h11ippine8 as mls-slonaries,t.eachel"lI,doctorll and bUBlne8~men. ~'hen they ",ere ~:~~ liberatea it was found th~t they had been terribly ~bused and maltre~ted by I ';;=.~~ thei~ c ap tc r s , l'bst of them suffered from malnutrition and as a. result ... ere !:-!~ very emac Lat ed , and many of them suffered from a variety of disea:HHI. Hence ... ~. \of many ,:d' them B.' SO became patients in our hospital. ~ng them I remember es­ :;~ 0 pee'1ally a Rom~n Oatho lie priest who, ·....hen he had been resto red to a suffieient • u~ ~ measure of' hes l t.h helped to fill our need for Catholic chup l e t na by saying I~fJ~I mUSeS but also making bedside visits to our patients. I t'i :.1:( < W It is of course und er at andabl e that there were a number of.' death::3 I~~\of WIll among o ur p s t.Lent.s as well as those . . . ho were killed ip combat. In our area .~= Grace Park ,-cas the name of a Philippine ceMetery, a section of which was used \" __4.-c. ~..-4::J"o."I. to bury OUf lwerican dead. It was here that it became my sad duty, along witr; • ." It'\,&: .. .., • ...,~ other cba.plains, to read the last rites for several of the deceased. I also 'II~.C" , " ' t.&::WlIl S'" wrote letters of' oondolence .. ') the loved ones of tI-.ose who were thus laid to ,8~ ~ re~t here. In my letters I mentioned the Scriptures and prayers I used in t ne ee ••• 2 o~ 1.:;;4:i~.t- grave side rite,. :In the wl!I'.!ks following I received ma.ny touching letters t he t, ,~:::. thanked me for letting them know that the'military he d followed their loved ones , i II"CC to the very end. I still treasure some of thele letters. '"" s: 0 . • ~~:."~ Sometime in Vl8.rch, 1945, our work •• ,11 hospital ziear Manila came to an ~~:;:: end. And so we were ordered to pack up in preparation for our next lDOve. Since we had been so extremely busy Without a break for ncnth., higher authority de­ :::~::i~ cided we all needed a rest, before being given a new duty aSSignment. So, along t~;~ with other units we noved by convoy to the southwestern Up of the island of It o=t~ Luzon, to a quiet area near the city of Batangas. Just off' .hoTe f'rOl'll us was . : : . : I I . Tad island which had on it an active volcano and which in the past 'had erupted ~=;:IEt:.::; I:IlOre tha,p"QPce. (Sometime 1n the 1960'. or 70'. it erupted again). Here we 1'o~ pitohed OLU" tent9, as usual, as we had already done several times bef'ore;because I: ~t" after all we were a semi-mobile unit. There were no duties for us to perform r.l~~ here as e. hospital. And 90 for some three weeks or so we were able to relax u ~ and really luxuriat,e, 1= this del1p:;htful tropical climate. A.ll kinds 0 f tropical 'CI:~~ fruita were to be had. by us in abundance 80 that we ate our fill of th6m. Chickens ~1 ~3 • and ep;ga were also to be had. All this enabled US to unwind after the arduous ....... .; labore we had had in the previous ~nths. The Army was now reward ing us for .:1~ hav Ing been SO hard-worked 1n:t1. battle zone for such fi protracted period. B\lt '-'.I:Z; at the same time we knew that, .... re Jr:lt'Z'JD being prepered and fortified for another "II~ duty assignment \Ihich might come any day. As a chaplain I carried on my minis­ ..... '0. . . . .. 0 "" terisl lind counselling duties, not only for our own unit, but also 1'or some • A~'" , ._ .. ~ ne Lr hbo r Lng' units who did not have a chaplain of their own. S::lmehow, also , I S.J:. • !Ds,de th,. aCq..tai"ltance of some Phil1ppino Christi,l!'lS of' a Baptist church in =~~ii the nearby .man :town of Lemery XXXxXXXXXXXXXXXXX, and was asked to httld a rev! :. kJr serv1ce~ for them while we were in thia 1rea • .. ~a~~ ~~~ But toward the end of March we received orders to pack uo and hold O-.lT­ :~':_1: selves ready for our next move. And that came on ~nday, April 1, '45, ~Ihich &:;:: also happened to be Easter that year. Here again, for the fourth time since we ,~ .....~ had l~ft the States, we were not told whither we wer e bound. We learned l&.ter that it was on this same date that our American forces launched their ~assive assault on the island of Okinawa. Fortunately we were not fated to te a part of that campaign which turned out to be very costly in killed and wounded on both sides. I believe that our side suffered some 5,000 killed und many more wounded in thut battle on Okinawa. Ins~e~, along with other unita we proceeded hy con­ voy in a basically eastern direction, but slightly south a s ...ell ,p'iSsing through the s,.ln Bernardino straits which 1s between the islands of Luzon and 1.=indoro • .'\fter we had gone t9.r enough east we rounded the south-eastern tip 'oi' Lu~on', ..~ gradu~lly s~linging ~rth and a bit wset, a. we did so, until ~Ie came to Legaspi h ,.' harbor which was jU3t a.bove the city by that same name. It was here th~t we ~ Were to make our a~?hibious landing, just as we had already done at L1ngayen • ! IiJ! ~C = 0;.... .1I.:.a :f:a !ii L'" t eel (\",.. ~,,",n :+""'4t: ..... ..,..... _ .... ~ •• f't."~ 'I.,. t. .....a . , .... ""'"•• ~~ .... _ "'\a .... _ ... ,..,_~ _-' 1\.T~ .. 'f9l"'"' ..... 4Cl'a'P'\~ �we were to Ie 1n suppOrt,to~ether with 80me field hospital',ot the veteran 1~ Combat Team Infantry' ~.~tment. Our collective a•• i~ent waa to -mop up". as it was called, tho Japs who were still believed to be in the area. Many of th••e Japs, antic1patinl our al,ault. had fled into the hilla above the city. The perfectly shaped Mt. Mayan. somewhat inland, but 1n clear .1~t everywhere her. dominated this area. It ie an activ. ~loano, and all the ~1. . thAt .e wera here, whon not shrouded with cloudl. it- peak could be leen to be em1tt1n~ smoke and ~Ie•• Thia voleano,too,blew itl top alaiD eo••tt.. in the 1970's. It r~a a perrectly shaped do•• very much r ••••blin, ~.PUjl n.ar 1bkyoJapan~ Our oonvoy had nov arrhe4. 11\ Alhy la7. When we pull.' in, naval shi,. wor. already stream1ng their rock.t. aDd Ih.lll .horewari, tTJlng to dis­ lodS. any Japi "'ho mi~ht still ~. in th. plaln. or in the hill behind the har~ur and city. It "'., ind.ed a elramatie li,.ht to. watch our ~attleehip. sending up a ateady Itr.a. 01' fire .hoY.wari al v. had e.rli.r vitn..... 1n ,.. Linsayen Gult. Th. differ.nc. h.r., hOwev.r, va. that/the ship. that were used 1n this •• ,ault·ver. considerably ••al1.r tbaD tho •• ·.ne-co' in that pr••10u. ~attl •• Evid.ntly 1t was anticipat.' that tk, r ••latane. here ~ul4 not be •• Itiff a. it had ~.eD in the battle tor Manil•• AM· that proved. to b. tbe c••• too. Mer. asain, •• ~.t'or. on NO.atoor Illan' a~' Lln~y.n Qult v. were .l.t•• to make an aaphlbioul la~lnc.· a".th11.tl",wl ver. more or 1••• ~.t.r· an• •t this. The artill.ry an' inf.ntry ~• •1r••• J,'r••••' •• u.,of oourse.Ono. on lhore OW' unit and oth.r IU.PPOr't unit. w.r. or•• ,ed to Ita, in th. ~en.ra1 ar... where our artill.ry piec•• v.r. still io~b1DC .h.ll after .h.ll into ~1".,1 .1~y aM Int.o tb. hiU • •",rrotmdlna tht.. port in oreler to tlrive aack &ny J.p ....ho m1sbt .tlll ~. &rolUld. WhU, w.it1nl: tor further or'.r. to I!I)V• • ~it inland w. sot out our '0' ratlona ·an4at•. tb••·bu.dled tor protection ~.hind aJ:lY vaU. ot" ruined buil"1n~. still .t.~iftS.·· ;.-.{ . 9)lIl8t.1ae iii the .fternoon it _ . OODI14...." late .nough for UI to ie allow.' to v.nture IIOmewhat furth.r lnt4 tbe h1.in,.'city. We ",.,.. ordered. to tin" an are. wh.re wh.re w. mlsbt ~l~uao at'l,a.t·tor tbe fir.t nl!bt.Ther ...... rr:»t,," lO.alaroW14i. The Jap. had tle. up 1llto :the hUll an4 our intantr)" were at t~eir ~••U": IYen the Philippine native. ha.··.abiuldon•• the city an' prul,tlDably had Fn. into hid in~ in the ne.. r~,. COWltryIU•• - It ftl eoMwhat ••rie for lAS a. v• •xplol'H unmoleste" into hou.. , and other \a114inCs that hac ~'8Il abanConect only DoUrS hefor•• 'boe an« utin'.ls w.r. ~tlllaa kitch.n ta~le., hire. in th.ir o.ge., anel S02e flyin« aroun4, .ftd'c~t..·""fclO'1 .n' other 40llestic ani­ mal. w..ndered li.tle.. l)" .~ut. Th.r. were .all·.kiftit of l1,;nl or • hurrte. flight ~.for. our invading fIOre.s. In ~h. ~_.tot .11 the dev ••tation we mana­ ~ •.. tOI f1nel an are. that "'8 tor a • ..,. .Ih":. ~,tor. we .et up our ho.­ pit.al tor .it. \laRa! operation. .. '.~'~;; ~ r . ,'" ~. . . Bouu.•• onc. 1n a whUe Japan..., anUlerJ' .hell • •till zoomed throLl~h \ tao air a~cl "'ere exploding quite near .', ,·w., f'owu'. it discreet that tirst nl,bt totini wb.tever cover w. could. We lAve tbe~ft'.' :,orl&=1n, JeDfti•• to the•• Ja.p IIh.lls beu". . . . they fl.w throql\..th~. a!r,i.••, IOWld.. 11ke th,'whine 01' • ,hiSb-pitch•• ~~~. "010•• Aat••Uy it .... tOftu.ctte that "'. COIl14 hear tb•• CO.lll1nc 80 that .... covl. quickly take CO'YlJ''!lne.~whbl.... ·tb.a Oft the way. At. ""ch' ti... Ve ""'uld -80rall\)1, into .the oraW'l""oll, bderneath hou ... an. otber l:>ullcl1nC' i t h a t Ilisht still b• •tan«in,..·.... H"""'~"f ,~., . . 1: '..":: But1n· a few w, coul' h...1' t_.t..t. \"••,lnC ot' r;u.nl anli other eXplo'ionl v'I'. , ~r. 'iet.nt. !lavifts·folln4·.wtaat,w nIU.rei to ~e • ew.taile ar..... we p~o ..... ~ s.t ap our bo.plt&l ....! . l•• ia.··hnt••ot cour.e. Ana ZlOW w. ~.p.n·to' let. , ..tt-nts ••nt ~ac1c to '" .)" t'orv&1'4,. .41oal t ...ml. w. oparat_ ... ·Y.:..}aa•• don.c1n I,.ard oc..iI1on.. bltol'•• ,W••r "I " • • • 'th14 ho.pite.l, aM 'lftO,~b.,..l' not h.~. tb.ir,own oh.pl.lft~I<"r~•• ~th•••• ve11. One ••• ~1ng "e .• a' •• Us .soare whaD we .~d.n • • ri •...-'",aaiaC .lenny" b••••• our va)". An. ill'.d t.b• •h.n dtt laall .t the v.r,. .etiC.... t ... Ilfr,'-sp1t.al .r.... But lucky for UI, t.ll'.lbelluU.• ..,'-....104 •• It pre." to~e"'~'v.4~.!fa~ it be.1i aliT., vbo leDDv. Ybat. .• -.1cht h&....~ _ _ tne re.talt•. , ...:.I.... '.;, .... " .. ~ .'. . .. .1· bav. ,ictu•• 0 t t.h• •e••t~1'7 \~t.~ w&,.. l&1. out here ~y our encin.era a~ _lnt"lDeli. ~ our V.v•• r.cinl'atio.· . .n ...., .-.•t pr.vioul looation. both . ­ lli J_!'( ...OYJ,a'.: e.M in Manil. at w.• • ~~ ~ 4,"rtto,.",ft'Jt~\b. co.-1ttal "Or'. a. ;...-­ ··:'p.l(.~.'p~.1. the re.a. tJ~ t.hn.,. whA _ •• +".4~ H' • .,",el ( '.7' _" .- �-63~- E!:ct>.use once in a. while Japanese artillery shells still ZocmE:d thro:l.sh Wt:=re 6)'.ploding quite near us, we found it discreet that first ni;/,t to find whatever cover we could. We gave the name"screaming Jennies" to the~e Jap shells because as they flew through the air they BOunded like the whine or a high-pitched woman's voice. Actually it was fortunate that we could hesr them coming eo that we could quickly take cover when we heard them on the way. At such. ':.i::1~S we would 8cre.:nble lnto the crawl apaoe. undern.ath houses and other building that might still be standing. But in a fe'" days we could hear that the thudding of guns and other explosives was more distant. HaVing found what was considered to be a suitable area we proceeded to set up our hospital, again in tents,of course. And noW we began to get ~MS patients sent back to us by forward medical teams. ~e operated as we had done in several locat1ona before. Near us was a field hospital. and since they did not have their own chaplain I served ~em &8 well. One evening we had a big sc.aro w~en we again heard a 'screaming Jenny" headed our way. And indeed it did Land at the very edge of' our oospital area. But lucky for us, the shell did not explode. It proved to be a "dud". Had it been alive who know. what might have been the result. I have pictures of the cemetery that was laid out here by our engineers and maintained by our grave. rep,lstration service. As at previous locations both 1n New Juinea ~nd 1n }~nila it was my sad·duty to speak the committal words 8S we laid to rest the remains of those who gave their all 1n this "mopping up" campaign at Legaspi. In an earlier chapter when I deecribed the combat at Wakdl-Sarml in New Guinea, I mentioned that one of our medic<:il officers had gone "beserk" because he could not stand the potential danger we were in. This time here in"t."eg&spi it was our 0.0 •• 0010ne1 Ohdstian,hlmself'. who broke under the strain of being in a combat area. Some members of' our own medical staff first detected our C.O's psychotic behaviour and began to realize that hp. needed treatme~t. "But in order to make sure that they were making a correct diagnosis a psychiatric team from a higher headquarters was brou~ht in to observe his behaviour and make their in­ dependent tests. It was confirmed that his \o;as a case of "ba t t Le fatigue" or "s he L'l shock". At a.ny rate he was t'lken away to a safer area, and Col.Reynolds, o u r executive o~flcer took over the command of our hospital. But I can still r emember that Col.Christian called me into' his office when !lll this was ~olng on and pled with me to come to his defense. as his chaplain. and a.cted with dis­ appo Lnt.me nt, in me when he could see that I f'avored the decision of the medical team. He acted as if he felt that his ohaplain had let him down to permit the~ to take him aw~y. Tbi. eout-bealt.rn part ot the Pb111pplne. Va' an ar... wh.re the preabr­ teria.D ohl.luh had It••n •• peoieUy aoth. ln 1I1t11oDary lOJ1c. P.rh~,a for tbh . " 1101' *'u nathe. 1IO\l&ht _ out anet invited •• to oo~uot ohuroh servioe. for a •• r.bant ••nt.r. wh.r. the local Pr.. byter­ [ bea. N • .". . in the o1tr ot 1&11 obur.h b\llU 1n1 bad be.n tror" or at 1....t va. d__l_ ln COMbat. INt _ . . IJt the __.ra ot tb!. otMaroh a.Sc" that I n.Ylnb.1". bolel •• "10" tor tit. . AD« thl. W' 1.14. 1n th.ir "0 !!ow erat.ru1 th., weI" that w. bad co.e in a. t.tIiab ~he 3.i!" arid 11~erator.. Tbl. oaw-eh ba4 .-Mrahl, ot 1,0 coAt•• dftl •••~.r •• About th1. U ... ,toe, I i_I'll" • • ut .. r.Ullo~' conferenc. which va. to b. held ia a hl.torlo Manila otlLlreh. 'fbi. wa. toe 1n~lT' not ollly Dativ. Phil1­ ,pino" c1.rg . - la7 ,erIOD•• 1tut. . .!Dly ••"loe .en of ~.b extraotloft. !Il. ~ flap!.c1. Pr ••• r.port" th1f" pt.••rine 11' t.h••• lIOr•• 1 ·T1e. of OO_ft. r~ 11."'.Ii~ 1l• •kCNUD' aa4 raci.l extraotlon 'INQlht tocetMI" the larl,et. 11'0. of ~"'!4' ~l.r' ot ~ob cl•• oent .V.I" b.lieved to have met. in any theatre of W..W~,~ .;~ ......, '11_ at &1U.~oi-Malate oh'll'oh 1Jl ManUa on ~.12t '4,. A. llri:et·"~."'.ot t pTlftl .nlll by Ca,t.LeoDAr. De lbor.Oba,lalft, //0"-' 'a. . . . tII.•.• n.b Iltllloa R.t. 0""01&. TM .lell.r. join" Ma_11.. hoI ~ ~U.... ollW'ob 1. their "1'111., .."s.o••• Date of t.h. . . .tlne ..1".1...·"''',-.\ t)w,:'ua "In ot til. J .., •••• nllSncn'.' to .111"1' . . . . . t'" t.,".."••,. ... A" r o. 1'.· I I I' /0 ' �I had been ,laced on .,eolal ortior. to attend thi. conterence. The view from the plane a. v. t},ftV tro. th. airport. near the foot of Mt.Mayan to ManUa 1. Itill ill­ ,r1ntell on a.i:~~n•• Serpentine river. w!.nli1.n« throush lu.h and verli,ant valley. ane the 1rr.~ularlJ,.Aut neatly la1d out ,attern. of rioe ,attie. and otber cro,. "'a. the everch..n«!n« 'anor.... to '" leen tro. th. ,lane wln~w. Our phne vas to land at historio Olark ne14 ju.t out.lde ot ManUa. AI 1. well known, rl«ht atter 'earl !arbor, the Jape had al~ ~rprl.e. ue hire, oatchiD& .any plane. oD'the ero wnl betore t.b.a7 vere able to take ott. llenoe our &er1al red.tanco A' l"eduoed alllOlt to aero in the Philippine. at tbat t1ae. But bOW tha litu&tion at Olark rs.alll altor:ether diNerent. I.. ,l&ft. . . .oen4" toward Olark '101cl runway I oould .ea many' aircraft. with til. I r 18i q ND·. •rkinC' on tho• •trewn heltar .kal­ ter , all .hot UP. 1y1nl on the ttelel where oW" ait-fo rce bad oau~ht tho. ~atore they had a cbance to get off the groWld. 'lb1a tima 0\11' del. had ga1nltd contracl o t tha airway... Whil. atill at Leca.,i I vae glv.n a .peCl&l aa.l~ment which might •• colt.ldered b1 lOme to be III)mavhat out ot line for a chapl..in. O\,lr ho.pltal staft h bjgWl to notice that a certain amount ot our medical lupplies .ere mhainr;. 'lie bad be,un to '\,l.paot that parhap. 110m. of the Ph1l1pplno. wb>m .e ",ere ~e1nr; to help u in O\,lr ho.pital operation. were _tealln~ t?om us. And it that vere the ca.e. eoul it be tbat they were .alling the•• dr'll' anel lupp11e. to Philippino .e4iea1 doctor in near~y towns ..nel vlllage.? And 10 I deputi~ed, along "'ith a lergeant who would drive my jee,. to make ·trlendly· but dtacreet and yet alert vldt. to 10m. ot the medical clinicI, "hic' IIIOre otten than not tu.rn'" out to be the hom•• ot the•• physician •• 1 was to kee, my o;yel open t'or any ligna that har. 1, Where Bome of' our medical l\,lpp118s had Fne or could bo 1\llpected to have gene. And I va. to report my finding. to our medioal .taft. I do not remember whether I really dld d1 cover anything that wal .uspicious. But I do rem_bel' that ,lOnie of the.e PhiUpp111 doctor•• without ..ylng,1O outright, gave indications by tha1r behaviour that the su.pecteel that I wa, on lO.e kind of "ap7 mielion·. '!'bay allO ciealt with ... ln ar. in,ratlatlng fashion, IOlDetime. eyen having IDe over tar a ••al in ttidr home•• They acted to me ... it th.1 were trying to hood.wink me. Tbie lDiuion was not al­ to,etb,r pl....sfor . . tor another roallOn. At such meal_ tl18. invariably ttwaraect over the table 10 that. ,a .e"ant 'Oultl have to lttand benind your chair to .boo the tliel away with a k1n4 of ·d~.ter·. !ut this wal all to be endured 1.1 part ot the inYe.tl~tt~e WQrk. A. I write thl1 I ha~. ju.t noW red1scovered a little note­ book in which I bael jottd oerta1n Pb1l1pp1nol I wa. tol. to coJ:ltlLOt. in tb,,\,a 1nveltlcatloll. They .ere. th. Qoyernor of 'the Province, the Uayor all40h1tf' ~t , Po11ce of Lep.pi Oit.y,and to", 10c.. l PbUippino M.D. vb" were au..,.cted ~J"~." ing IOlIlehow illegally obtain" .edioal luppl1e •• Dr.AF and Dr.Go.ez. )\y.. ,.. ,J~* that for the molt part ~tb the m&roT &114 chief ot police mad. 8tat.Il.JIt-:::~ .' -17 oxonerat1n, the .eelical doctors. ' ' "" •. ,t '\,,~>:" . s,metime in MI'Ut.1~. 01.11' lOrk at Lega.pi bad co•• to an .na,' aDd. We were to '/Bake our••lve. r ....y tpr 01,11' Den DlOve. B\.It a\ thil atar-what .... thl to be? OLlr airforoa hd aDo'lt th1. till, ,llropp.d atomic ~lDb. on the tlO Japane •• eitie" UagataJei anel II1ro.b1IIa. In aclel1tion.to' 'that, tl.-l;ollllba had b~~t. \I~ ...et arue in alul aroun4 yo. . . . anel To~. As a, re.Lll t ILll'uad.r taral ~~ ~een ned by the Japane•• 1n 1b~ IaJ. lenoe a po"ibla .u1c1dal &ttao~ bY,!Urtbrc•• on tbe Japan••• holllel...&"J16,er. QOl.\lcl be avo t.eled. 'ltl- w~y v.. no~ ~r 1,1' to land 1n Japan al part of' . . oac~nlnr; armecl tbree., A:1d 10 the 11 .~,I~,b&'tlon "cepital was d. ••tined to, have a part in tbh t1nal pb..e ,of' W.W. I i i~;~)'aclt1e Ap1n by convoy ~ "are lIOon on QUI' ¥&y to TokyQ.!~Y•. ' We· arrlv" ~ll~-::~m th. early part of SeI't.ell.hr,194,. ' , w. II, V&. "NIl ;" '81,­ ,0'. ! . /J­ .. �I o. WITH THE OCOUPA'I'IoN FOROES IN' JAPAN. S!PT5:M!l!R-OO'1'O~ER. 19451 The ship we vel'e on, I.S part of .. convoy, atsamed into Tokyo !ay only a .attar of days after the Japanese government had _ilned tho articles of .u~render on the !attl.ship MlslOur1. ~ the end of my cays 1 .hall never tbrget what ve sav a. our ship snaked it. way &:ong the endless number of naval craft of all description. which lay at anchor here. One would almost think that all tho allied naval power in the ~rld va. concentrat.~ in thea. vaters. To. I.e mammoth battle.hips of OTOr" d•• crlpt~n,alrplano carrler.,cruisera and all tht rest ot this hug. armada, each vo, ••l flying its country'. color., and endlessly .trstched out in the.s w&tsrs in ever.y direction vas a spectacle which wo 'IIsre likely never again to vitneu. I &Ill sure that enoTlDOus ...tiefa.ction and justified ptlde mUlt have caus.d ou~ ch••ta to svell at loaet a little bit when we r.alized that ln 80m. samll mea'ure, ve too, had contributed our part toward ~­ tha r.al1ut.ion o~ this overvhelming viotory 1n the Pacific I The Jape knew tha.t they vere licked. And tH8y gave evitenee of it in the lar £e-lettered slp8 which they had painted on IlOmo 0 f the buildin,_ along the ~harve. which we vere nov app~aGning and wher. w. dt.embarked. I regret that I did ~t write down what 801130 of' the.. a1~s aaid. But ths ,eneral tone o~ them, .. I ~ clearly remember it, vas an a.ckno"ledp.nt Df' clefeat on their part and .. welCOlte to the incoming allied occupation torcee. W. first let toot on Japanere ~1l at YokDh&lDa, a.nd did 10 "lih mingled ro'11n,_ o~ caution and lurprhe. 'ft. 800n l.arned,bovover, that there were no ground. tor either of' these emot.ions. Their . .poror had taken care of th.at. He had. ordered his people to lay down all arms, to offer no resistance and to accept def.at. General Mao Arthur, haVing apent the major part of his life in the ortent, knew exactly how to deal vith the Japansee. Me ehowed that h. had a correct under.tanding of their peycholo~, and 80 inaha. of shoving their em­ peror a.ide, he found it userul, even if he was only a fi~r.head, to give or­ dera to tbe Japane.e nation throu~h their ~p.ror, detoated thoug~he was. Thus ve~ the occupying fore •• were saTed from any need to rtrut about 1n a proud and oondee~endin~ fa.hion. All Japane'e ~ere submi.sive-and co=p11a.nt, even though BOllia of them did look somewhat aulUm. , Our first. order of b*aine.s was of ce ur e e to find an area Where could ut. up our hospital. Thi. t1me,of courso, our operation ~a!J not to talco " ~re of \attle ca.su,a.ltio., but only to care for the sick and any VOO lIl&y ha.ve bad an injury or met with an accidont. !Ut ~. had como into Japan 1n the midst of a tnl:oon which was t1P1cal of this region a.nd "hich had been .v.. p1n~ ov.r the southea.stern part of Japan for 80mo day8 nc~. ·Wlnd and rain vere inco ••ant so that the eoil,thoroughly sa.turateli, va.a 11lee a quagmire. Henc. ~e had dif­ ficult;)' in pitching our tents beca\uo 'th. foree 0 t the 'Wind eateh1nl; in the caman :p~lled tentp!ns right out of the ground. Nevertbelus 'We did the beat wo coul~. eut soon ve were permitted to f!X)V. into a. primary school buildin, which W.I only partlally d.... ~ed., though everything for miles around had beeo burnt up and denetated from the fire bombin~ of Tokyo. r~~ ehiof exeit. .ent ~. had in tho tew iays ve wore in YOkOhama "as this: To jo ha.d .... 0 the Japanoao Pre.ler, the head o't tho VAr ~rty. -:;ith hie nation noY in H'~ae. for baTin& lost the war, tbo only bonora'ble thin!: for a Sa.1II&ur1 warrior ~La to co~lt harikari. And this is just what he had att~mpted--only un.ucee"~~lly. Me had only ~unded himself. And where was he taken tor treat­ ••nt.t ~:.lll.lr;ht kno~' Ol.lr 71 t s t iv&cuat1on a,apit&l. Kero he vila kept 1n iI01a.­ ticn 110 th1tt. I did not pouonally .e. hiJIl. !ut. I ca.n sUll remember the exci't.•­ !Dent whieh hh pre••ne e in our hospital ooeaeioned &mon~ our personnel. I haTe just nov red.iscover" a lIl0m0ra.ndUlll in Illy filu about 'this 'l'ojo incident ~eh giv •• Y1Yid details. It is .. a tollovs' Jbr a.neral Rol •••• J Kq .i1gtlL L~, A.PO San hanci.eo, li:1gth J..rty Hq., YokD ham., Japan • -Th. aan ~ flrst c1rcle4 on hi. deSk calendar tho infamous ~to.of Ooc.7. 19~1, ~ ... hp.etored at the 7,'et ivacua.t\\on lblpital 1n tho ovonin,; o f (continued on p.&'O ~f) w. ,-4" ------. --~. _.,~. ." .. �·\ -65t, Sopt.",194,. al 'Patient No.l0,694. s~1cid.·. •• Diag~'l.' SUn.hot WD~nd.,atteropte4 Suicide, but not 1n the mann.r of Japan••• militarists vho '.nar~' a.signaenta given thes. but with an "erlo&n )e.o.l.Colt auto.atic revolver. Tojo wa. oarried. trom htl boa. 1n To~ by U.S.Any medica and va. admitted to the 7,'at. a1t~a't.ecl in a l'okJohau. ,rllaar7 .01'1001 \~Ud1n&:. Thtl 18 the tirst t1me the hoaplt.al bal b••n under a root 81M. ooainl OV.l'.eas•• And the co_mi­ inc ofticer, Col.Riohard. Re)'nolcll ot Qad.no1.*... ,'lit it. 'out ot th. Dl.llh and into the hrick.· • 'lDjo tbe 100 tth patint to be a.cleltteti on the 11'th of' Septellb:r. Whih 1n '1bk)oo, 1n .erai-oon.otcu... condition, h. 4 to allow Japan.. ph)'.lolanl to attend hla after be va. abot, blAt was dooUe vhUe be1nC tr.ated by ~1. foraer enem1....nil atten.ed by V.S.Ar-1IlY nur •• l' It Lt. ,J'l&cb.l Sor.1i.t of Lone Gr••• I added tM. add.it~D&l note. '1'here are three nliU" 1n attendanoe upon 'Ib jo who ooae tro• • • pita1 ehlp. vhich lie ln folcoh. .a harbor. ' Ow- stay .in YokDhaaa,bowever. va. 1••• tha4 a week. C)"ar next. IIlOve wa. to be nearby '1'0 kyo ~ The .re.. betw••n the tltO citb. through which we had to travel valone vaat 1n'aArial are••. or at l ...t blLd. been lueh bef"ore our t1re­ bombin!. It had nov been re~cl!ld to e. valt .coronee! eanll .. tar IU the eye eould .ee--& sob.ring .i~t ind.ed. And when ve 0'" to !bKyo. at le.et Where we were told to try to ••t up our holp'ital. 1t was the ....e .tory ... we h&4 eont'ronted 1n Yokohama. on17 perhaps even IIOre truetrating. ),bat Japane.e houa8$ (oont1nue on 66) wa. 1'.',.... *.- ,&,,* •• The fullest and IIIlut graphio aocount that I bave •••n a~bere of' th1e attempted .u1cide of HIDEXI lfOJO. whe» WaB b~ht to our 71~ at Evacuatlcn lbspltel in Yokohama on September 1'.194,. 1e to be ~ound 1n the bock bl -Wll11e.J1 Craig, THE FALL OF Jj~!.J{, The D1d Pr.8•• !~.Y •• 1967. 1n C~!lpter 22. THE L\ST REOOUR3E (Pp.'1~-~21). 1 ha~e zeroxed these pagee and it may be leen ••• separate docwaent which I have appended ... .0 . . Autoblograph¥. . ( ,:;-'l ....~.-t-Yj .. ~I.. I~"""') L.D.~~. r / �-07­ :-,,'':1=:1 \.!-t-::t he r I ~o'tlld h-cv e f'\ jet:p tit my d1sjjo9>J.l t.o~~thl:r ~;i'lh ti. d r Lv e r , I tub. 1.1", ! I;IO"t Cdl't"inly co u I d , "Good", he lltt1d. "And ;;':{th,'r Burnl:i b.:I :.ll-o~~y t..;,1.: r.',1j iu~t w!.erl:1 your unit h loeatlt"', 90 1 '01111 fllp.nbge t o let to your ph~: .. t. 7 ~.m. 1.,):llr,)l"ro'w un.! I will l1erve liI.S your gUide 1.0 :r.ukc the r e.t he r long trip ;:.: '•.) 5".; K"g;'\~.:l.1I ,1.lid t.hat i:1 ex~ctly \IIhat. Wit did. T~.ro;l ·!".out the wa~' Kag'lwa had been an outspokcn critio and Or-paTient of' l,tH ....~ 11n~t the U.3. Ii re.ult he lind :.. number vi' his f,:,llowur8 had J 'f'",1. 1 il L .<0":'"' ?l·,,;,d uuc er ho ue e ."s arrest throl.lghout the cor.flict. But now th'\t the WEIr ....,;.~ 0 t er , he h'aJ agliin !.lpea;<:ing out and was currently much 1n the n",ws. 'tlha't. OJ. )l;-.:.l:lQn oplJOrtur.ity it was for me to bavo the privilege of an interview with th!;; '''0 do 'I~igurel :'bt only 'Was he perhaps the I'\'kj st t's.lIl';)\'I~ Japanese Christian . le~d~r, hut h~ was known also for his pacif1c1sm and the fact that he Was tho founder of the J~?~eneao Christian Cooperative movement and other Soc1al sor­ vic~~ edp~ci~lly to the poor. In fact he was knowf as the Walter Rauschonbush of Jl1plin. At th6 coor to graet me when we arrived was none other than Mrs. Kagawa She half bowed to me, in the ~sual d.~rent1al manner of her ~ountry. but ...t 0 rice al $() po 1nt.d to my shoes as if to indicate that I was to remove the~ before gplng farther. But then ·,he &110 ~ve me & pair of alippers to put on, Qnd thus she led the way through & room where I later learned several mem­ bers of the Press were already .eated,e&ch waiting hig turn to see Kagaw~ for a ncwpnp~r story. But since I already had an advance anpointment I was at once brcught to Kagawa, who 80180 gree't.ed lila corlS1~lly atter Og8:wa had introduced me. Og!l~:a blid suggested that it 'WOuld be uaet\tl it I would have a number of queations pr~?s~ed to ask Kagawa so tha't. a maximum ~ •• would be made or Kagawa's t1mo. Anci so the previous evening I had alroady prepared ~ questions. And 80 Arter a m1nut~ or :10 o~ getting mutually acquainted with eachother, w~ proceeded With. our conference. I kept my note-taking of his answers at a m~niml.lm, 80 as no't. to offend him, but immediately after the interView, seated in O~T jeep outside, I ~rote his answers out moro fully, for I realized th~t I had a very valuable document. When my conferenoo With Kagawa was over. and before we teft th~ ~r.a, OgaW& invited me allO to vi.it. ~~~ wa. called-triend.hip Hall",the social centor of hi' Presbyterian ehl.lrch, where I wa. given a n~ber of booklets and pamphlets wr1tt~n by",Y~wa and l1'terature about him &.nd his \olOrk. Here, also, I met a Mrs.Topping a long-time American m1.aionary in J&pan. It ~as here,too, that I had a supplemental interview ~lth a certain Mr.WatAnabt, whoae father was the pasto r o f a Baptist church· in Yokahama, and who tat.lght sce te logy in a .Baptist college in Yokohama. I asked him lOme ot the same ql.lutions I had already put t.:> Kag>!wa, and in TIly report which follows, 1 have wedgl)d 1n his knswer to SOlllO ~r these q~e$tion9. In this way the reader can got u doybl~ perspective. Here, then, are the questions I asked and the answers ! received from K~g~wa, excep't. wher$ I indicate that it is Watanabe speaking' ~ue st ion 11 to yOl.l look upon what has happened to Jf&pen 9.3 a. disaster or 88 an c ppo rtuni ty? And why? Answer, Both are true. It i9 a disaster becau.~ of ita magnitude. In all of Japan there were 2,200,000 homes de.troyed,10 million people are homeless in 77 big cities. In Tokyo alone, 770,000 are homeless and 25°,000 of these are living in dugoyts. On March 10,alone, in only one district of' Tol.cyo (eastern) 100,000 wure villed. But ye., it is an opportunity at the same time: As a mili­ ta.ry power Japan is done for good. The ,volee. of' those who were suppressed by ­ the military c~n now speak o~t again for a new Japan(including Kagawa,of cour~o). ~dtanab. 6nswered I' follows to this same questionl This 1s the dawn of a cew d~y 1n Japan. Wba't. we sball gain i . to time. what wo lost. #' . 9Hestlon 2$ Can the Japane.e who are atill 1n office in Jopan(under tho Supreme ) ,-11lied Commander) be counted on to work for the beat interests or Japan!. That ~ 1s, w111 they eo~n~rate to g1v~ Japan ~eedom or rel1gion, speech and press and equul1 tv nt' e~O • pportW1i't.y? Kagawa t. anewer was th1Sl Yes, tr.ose now in hera~lr! �-68­ power under the allied com~~nd~r w111 w~rk for theee things. Ho cited ~he f~et that the Premier hoci called a rooetir.g 0 r· clJrt"in lee.J.~rs and mad e e l ear to th",'-; tha.t it was for auc h objectives ~he:r $~\.ild rlOw 13.1:..01'. "('lt~.nabC:!ls nn!l\',er ~o this question was more specific, l folt. He said I !-~nJ 0:''' us r e f'er to GH~ as "the clec.r:ing cotllprmy". ~ far it. hna done well 1n ca:r:r1ng out its cl~an1ng prop;ram "Nith r e gu r d to one set of po ve r s I the militar; :::achL-,:iS which has been 90% clesned out, And th~t 1s £ood. But t~1s program ~~~t con­ tinue, for the bureauer~ts who are still i~ pOher must a.1so be c1eane: out. A."d 1:1 addition to th9.t, the C!1f italists(big bus i ne s s ) I::ust also be gi';,:n a tharo\.lsh cleaning. And we believe th",t !J~nerrll :-:9.0 Arthur \01111 not s~C? until h~ hag made a thorough house-cl~Qning in all three of these department!. And it 'dill be 'oiith our approval, yes, our hC!l.rty app ro vs I that he do so. 7"ds is exactly what Japan needs. The ~re tr~rou;hly he Goes so the better we shall like it. He went on to se.~r. I ask you, .... h·-it attitude do you find on t:.e par t, ~r the cot::~n people and the average Japanese soldier? ',','hat have you eXr~rience~ to be their attituda to\.;ard the o ccupat to n troops? It must be ac.:!littei that ~~ first there was fear, b9cause of 'trhat ./e had been ":.old tha.t A=.eric9.n t=-oops wc:..:l~ do to us. Eut now that we see that we have nothin; to fear, we h~ve ~~ u~ki .. c feclings to you. ~e wish to learn fro~ you all that we c~n_ Has any "~erican soldier been hurt by any Japanese? None. On the other hand , what is ::-.~ f!tti­ tude of the eereeo n people and th') aver age Jap soldier to their own military leaders? 1'0'11 that We know tho real nature of the Jspanese srmy,its ru~::'lessne5s and the atrocities it has COl::l!l!itted, \018 are even v1olcn~ly in op?OBit~n to the~. ~~at do you suppose every Japanese soldier is carrying on his back as you see them on the train' :iLnd on the streets? These ar e suppl iee and s to r e s \oihic:: they have t~ken(stolen) from the ~ilitary which h~d vast stores for tr.~~selvesJ and tr~s at the expense of hardships which had to be suffered by the ~~er~ge Japenese _ The Japanese military ~achine has deceived un and ni31e~ us. We now repu-:iiatc it and know that our sorry lot is onl:r due to their blu:".~ering. quostion roO ..... l'ls,ny Christians do you eatir.:'1te there are in J~panJto:=.y? And rJO~_l-h:;l~J churches? Kaga\ol s l s answer is: Thero are 400.000 Christi:J.ns i:'1. Jap&.l':, -250,000 Protest~fl.t...and 150,000 Ca.tholics. There wer e 16CO chcr cbe s , :>~ ',;hich there are 500 big churches th'Z.t were burned. In Toiqo, e lone, there aT'3 .3;0 Christian churches with 60,000 Christian3_ But ~bout 160 of these ch~rches in Tokyo were destroyed. 't ~Jestion 4: Are K~gaw~'s ans~er Christianity and Shintoisn cutu~lly exclusive? .tnd w~:? is as followst As a Christian! feel th~t I c~n still ~~ve re­ spect for shrines,sacred places and the Z~pGror. Whe~ I show such res~ect and r-ev er enc e I do so not a s an act o~ v,~r:::hip, 'blt I do So in the spirit of' vene!'a­ tion for those wr.o have gone on be~ore. But Shintois:n as a re11gbn i3 mt - co~p!ltible ....ith Ohdsti?nity. (And r.ow Kc.g~'.:a added eomethh1g wl".ich r::: f'or.ne~ teacher of Bible Ln both Hope CollcG;: and \"!e!d.ern S~=_~1n3.r:r. Dr •.\lber~u3 ?icte!"s. arid a long-tit:113 ::I19:3iona1'y in Ja.pan. ~!lid ,::lgs,\'1!t ":.lid because he t-ne.... th!lt I had originally been ~ minister in the Refor~~d Church in ~~erica. ~ne~ I made my report of my interview with K9.ea.... a to hb he said thlt Kagawa. had R=form~:' Cr.uTch M1s~i~nary ....e rk 1:'1 J"p~(n in Mind). t.tl~'.i~:"l. s~,1dl The earliest ~:)rI:l of Chri3ti'mitj"t;.. l".ich t he J~ps.ne3e came in cc nt e c t, ',;ith o.fter the Restoatbn in 1~6i\ ....0.::1 D..ltch C~~lvlr.ir.C':. Its em?h~sls uj'OI1 God 8S Cre~"tt.or and 3:lvereign. and its emphasis upon the e ne-nes e of G:>d(ro.ther tha.n upon the 'trin1tarhn eo~cept) appealed to the J:.panese. Ag a result, D...tch Cnl ... ir,lm:l contributed to a ~~reet. r(lv1vul, called U:e l~elji Fleror~9.tion, ...: hieh 1:icluded the r e s to r c t Io n of the po ve r e.nd place of l.h$ Emperor .(1n the .pIu c e o~ the numerous Sh:>euns). Thus Chr1sti~n1ty 1n the !'orrr, of Dutch Cll.lv1nb~ was o ne or the r.lOlst power!'ul in­ flu~nces in the building up or th,) E~p"Tor concept 11: J~p~ne8e lira_ In thh . I ,/sc:lse Chr1stihnit.y e nd p,:)l1tic,,-'l S~.1r:toi~;1!i are not l;Juiunlly e xe Luc i ve , but. Ci-.rl!'· I C i9.nHy has oven co n ' ributed to this co nc e p t , �-, . 4 , , U -'or'liue:r to VG the 'l'e~~te!'t :'i:,nl~ld ~robl,;rr. th.·t f",~es "\n"',:-? ,oeEJ.~.. it. be fa.ced'? Kll.~e..WfLtlf l.I.n~ur \11.\S: ScI: ~rF!lHy • , - no 0 ­ ~ l,J~r;r,~S:; :.f' co r ',Ili! I eo ns1d.iU' to b" 'the grlto:t,oet weaknee' of our peo p'le , P'\H 1.1-.1:-. 'J!-,d,.lti.mity with its toaching of purity is the only be pe , No help can be O,(I)'.:C:..::::;1 i'l'oru any o'ther religi.on which the Jllpanelle kmw. Instelil.d. t~e e t.he r r e-­ lL:ion:i o:",}y incre'1ge the problfttll. Kaga~& added thr.t he ilt behind It. new Life fnvernent", the driVing force of' which 11, through Christi6.nity, to fin Japan of ... his c;rl!.,tedt of' all evils. Wllt.'11'1ab1'. aplwer ~ U to this Clueat1lj,on \I&a ciifrer~nt. He expessed him.el~ as believing that the 8ex-mora~1ty ilsue i8 minor. Inltead, h~ said, JapAn .hou14 concern'it.elf ~th business morality. In this regard J~pan n~eds a new ph11olOphy.--a new 'Weltanschauung·. aa he 'called it. (~bte hi~ an~wor to que.tion 2, where' he zeroed in on the military,the buresu­ er'lts ... nd t.he ctlp1talists). , .. Question 6, What do you consider to' be the pro apects for Christian mhs1.ons 1n Jll.pal'l in the future, and What type of progrUl of Oh/istian mi ••1o_ ,do you think will be th~ best for Japan? Here Kaga.wa and Vatanab1 wore in perfect agreement I The prospects \~erl!l never brighter. Why! Beca.uu Ohiathnity is llgainst m1U­ t~rlsm, and militarism has been defeated once for all in Japan. They exprossed th~mselves as believing 'that tho prejudice. which tho peopl$ formerly had a~lnst Ohrl~t1nnity were now dying out, that is, the pro~udice~ they had beo~u.e it was Chr13t1~n .~erica that had bombed them to 8ubmi8sion. . But Japane •• Ohri.t1an1ty must be indigenous. If mia.ionariea will come 1n the spirit of aloofnes" and try to hand us something ready made, like a coat to put on, it will not -e rk­ Christ1.:.nity must be brought in tho s'pir1t of·-love,charity and unc.erstl:lnd1ng, and not in t.he spirit of haugh'ty 8uperioreb&nd1ng us something for our own !1POd. The right :>plrit has been shown in previous m1a:Jlon we rk. We crave .. OQft1..1nua­ tion 0 f' ve rk in th,h spirit. . •• I~ ~- i ..-pe.rt .. ··r,:.L,· ,. ; .." "6,.,,.1' Question 7' Wh~t 18 the most urgent message you ~lsh to have ~e bring to the Ohrl$ti~n peopl~ of America? Kagawa's an.wer. Please send us Bibies. This 1s the m~3t urgent need. Also aend us missionaries who will come'not only to preach ~nc te~ch, but who through the incarnation of 'the spirit of love and charity \lill tu 11 ving defloiltirations of 'the po\leJ" of Ohristinn1ty. They must be men and \<iomon who will exemplify the spirit of the third 0 rder of tha Franciscans I who preach Lv gpod work'. America's best girt and it~ best reprosentatives to Japan, J<ortN, )&nchur1a. and China w111 be such ~iSfl1ontl.r1es. Al::5o we want tTIOrd books, periodicals and ma.gazines in all branches. He emphasized medical books in Eng­ 11sh; lie \Yill do the tranSlating into Japanese. \'o'e tire hun cry to l~ar!1 whtlt l\mer1c~ has to contribute 1n all fields of Science. To this same quea't1on W~tan~hi's ~nswer was thisl My most urgent message is thisl Oontinue to clean r~use in J~pan. !b not be satisfied with tho destruction of J~panl8 military power to flg;bt. Get rid of' the buroaucrats and the c,·.pitaHsts.-big business. "'!'hej' art! thOl'oughly corrupt The only reasonat~e Ja.paa:MJe peo·ph hav e done so lit1le in ~~re than u month since host111ties~ave ceaded to b~11d houses Bnd to cl~ar away debris iSI beoauao the bureaucrats nnd big busine~s men do not release to thd people the mater1al.(l~ber) which ~.H.Q. haa made avail~ble for thi~ purpose. The bur.~ucrat. ~nd b~sineal men want 'to feather their own nest. before they us nndly 7t1cked out. W1th wint.er a tronth away, 1n Japo.n, where are the people going to live? How can they eont1nue to livo 1n their miserable galyan1zed lron shacks and in bom~sh.lter8 1n the ground? SuesHon 8 I . Wh!l.t ~ok or periodical wau.Id you recommend me to read to be 1n­ formed on the situation 1n Jnpan today1 I have only Kagawa's an.wer to this question' Give us the pap.T,and ve w111 print 8UC~ book. and periodicals. We just don't have anyt.h1ng 'to recommend, to ')"Ot.l along this line. turing the la~ two yeus not one Ohrietia.n IIlAg¥1ne OT paper has been printed 1n Japan. !:low.Ye~ on aece nd thought Kagawa did mention The History of Jfl.panen ~.ligiona by Anezak1. a professor in the Japan... Imflerhl Un1vers1ty(Harvard 'lecturea). / ......Th e l''1 he aaild, I personally expect in tim. to print a Christian nevllpa.,,.r •. r­ /Thus ended my interview with Kagawa, and tbe eubs1d1ary interview with Vatanab1. Littl. did I know .then ,that only a utter ot ... couple months later, that U io. Decemfer..~94"iL I WQ.uld. be Lldng .. report. or this interv1ev tU 'I1l1 Nr.t ohapel tal~ _n ~.tin6. 0011.,- wben I wa. 1nv1t,~ there te ~~ ~A_".~ ~. . ' ' A �-70­ D. / F:t;):;E:j3!~t}, TRAV:::r; BA:::K T0 ':':~E 3T.-\.TES, SE:PA.1HTIO~l TE:i:·;n:.;.L LZA.V::t 12 OCroBSR.194l:)..-25 J,U·IUAi\Y.1946: F;:O:~! ACTIV~ DUTY A."-n: :;.lcost. ev,::ry d9.y,now,somo !r.embers of our raoBF-ital received c r d e r s to beJ:in p ro c e s 'ing for the ret.urn home. ''''hat "eter~ined '~hen yo\.lr turn would come was the number of points you had a.ccumulated in Qversel:u ..rvt ce , My t urn came on October 12, '4~. The pla.c& in Jttpan whc.re this depzc c e e s Lng "as G~ne at le~dt for our area of Japan, was in a J~panese military ca~p near , Yokah9.!llfl., in \·,hr,t was called the West Po int of J:lpan It ,-a very n 1 co1ayou t f c.' !.L.iildl:igs. T'hi:3 of course involved a. gre·~t delll of' paper ~Iork,both for e ur se I» 'le;!,indi'vic!w:lly, but a190 for the offices. We \'1ere kept in the dark until almo.;t the la.st minute about whlit kind of' transport.ation we w,:,ulci have ::'or t he return voyage, whether it would bo by plane or ship. This We3 a lively t~pic of' :,r:-eculation 9.:~.o:'lg U3, some prefering one ID matT.s of return Etn~ others >!l.(s­ other. ~~t fortunately we had no c~olce 1n the matter. I considered myself Iucky that it w~s to be by ship, and especis.lly when it turned out to"t it .1.:l5 to be t.he hu:.:e 33 General '....eigel a passenger liner 0 r the ~us Pr e e Lden t Lines which was now being used by the government to transport r et.ur nt ng military. personnel. I can still remember that every meal w~s a veritable fea9t. In­ cluded were ste~k9, vegetables ~nd salads which we hud missed overseaa,except ~hen we h~d been on ~avy t.ransport.s. Milk ~aa to be had s~ much as we ~ant~ci, s nd ~,meh.:lw this is what! especiallv craved and a-ot n;y fill of. And hal' "cO: apFr,,~is.ted the leisure and relaxation this voytlge a.C:!"'03S th~ vl1de P&.cif'1c af­ forded UJI Ar.d to think ttat every day We were drawing nearer to a reunio~ witt our loved or.es. At first we were ~lated to land ut Seat~le,Washlngton. But n few d ay s r·61'o1"e we ..lould hit the west coast orders \-Iere chonged and He v e r e told that.le were n esc ed for the O::llden Ga.te. So $.;i.n Francl;;;co here we corne I A­ large mJb of e xhube rant, \oiive3,sweethe8.rts and other famil)' member,S of' r e t ur ne-s s wrc ~ived i~ the western Stutes wero at the dock to greet us 65 we dise~barked. '::hat :f-j'tibllant and tear-jerkirlg reunion that was! ':1"ose 0:" us .. ho ne e ded to travel f&.rthl':r inland to t~eet our fr..reiliea would h",,,e to ...:!it .;;. fe ... d s y s Io ngc r , but, ... we kne.,: t!';at our turn would be coming soon, too. But all of us would first have t.o go to Oamp Stoneman for a cey or t.v-c for d epro c e s s Lng , just as this had also _been the carr.? ,/r.er6 "'.any 0 f' U.3 hd been processed ab.1uthlO years before on our way t.o the 3.\·;.P&cific. Again there ;",5 th~ inevita.ble but necessary paper worka physical eX3.:!:s,rece1vir.g pay due U9, getting travel vo uche r s and finding out at which 09'lp or fort we would finally be demobilized. etc. ThIS pros and cons of taking out a reserve co m­ 11lission were carefully pointed out. to us. I Sll.W the advantages of accepting a reserve commission. All th~t it called for was attenciir.g a weekly p&id rnili­ t'J.ry drill with a local unit and two weeks of paid a.ctive duty each SU:QT~er "ith everit ue I retired pay if one had put in twenty years ty the ag~ of 60, after which one draws retired pay for the rest of his life. I signed up for this and h~ve never regretted doing so, in spite of the fact that. in 1961-'62, in th& Cub~n crisisJ along wit.h some 180,000 National Guard and Reserve personnel, and nt the ag8 of 59, I was called b~c~ to active duty with the ~2C'th Ordnance 8!lttsli o n and served for A year in !Port Ord,California. This last yea.r of' a ct Lve duty made me el:l.gible for prorootion to the rank of.' Lt.Col.,which !llso helped to in~re~8e r.y retired P9Y which I have been reeeiving since uec.l,19c2. Somehow,however, for final d&pro~.ssing my name \18.8 mist&kenl:r placed ­ on the Ft..Log~n(neer Denver) Hst. It should have been on the Pt..Sheridan (near Chicago) list, for t.his·was closer to ~here ~neva and the fl1mily had been living(rolland,r'~ichlglin)While I was overaeas. But that was Ii minor incon­ venience 91nceeveryone was fumished wIth travel vouchers to reach or,·~ls !-orne ; { station. In order to reo v e alJ tro:;)ps returning from the Pacific required the .1.--­ ;:;overnment to place Into service all the ro lHng stock they co u Ld lay the1 r ._~ hnr-ds on. As e. result some of the trains were rather old arid Lea t e n up, even ~f they could be mad e to serve the purpose. S::> if we b"d e xt.e c t e d t ... ","" .. Pullu.rnn e l e epe r e we had another gue!u en",1 "'_ "'. �p • :~~y ~ain -c~aches. s;:"'wifre- ­ Denver had! and they were of the vinbge who: the green colored Yariety that could be pushed back into only a slightly reclining position. But since ve knev that our trip would last a tew daye. we war veterans took things into our own hand. to chance theae aeats into at least se~1-s1eeper8. ~ renoving or loosening some bolta and screw. we managed to l~y these seats down flat SO that we could sleep ~alrly comfortably at night. Of' course t.here was food on the train :for us. '!ut every once in a while when the train stopped at a station, even it only for a few min~tes. some of us would da.sh out to buy 8upplemental snacks of t.hings We had missed having for a long time. We were in Port Logan,just outside ot Denver, tor only a rew days where some more paper work had to be donp, and then ve vere off' again, each in hie own direction, and on the last lap of our homeward trek, which for me was Ohicago and t.hereafter Holland,Michigan. It. was now Nov. 10, 1945. When my ~ra1n reached North Platt.,Nebrasbt, it was held up long enough, here,as w.re IIlOlItFroop trains. to change crewa and to take on fuel and water. Knowing that t.his was a regular pra.etice ot the.e trains, many WOlllen from North Platte and the sur~und1ng area were always ready in the tr9in statton with a bi~ spreat ot all kinds of fbod and othes ~odies to which w. returning yeterans were invit.d to help ourselves. Intact. H3rth Platt. became tllJlloUS t'or this. and I am sura it ia atill rememberad by many a aervice man all over t~o U.S. for what took place on these stop-overs. )breonr, 11 ttl. did I realize it at the time t.hat. in l.es thantw) months ~m then our family llOuld b. taking up r.d­ dence 1n N.braeka where w. have at ever aince. .--­ Even though JAY Army t.rmina leaye pay would continue until 25 January, 1946, of cours. I r.alized that I needed at once to Make moves to eecure a civ­ 111an pOsition. Getting back to 00l1.,e teaching wall of course my fervent hope. I did have a leave ot abaenc. trom Huron Col10&e, where I had taught bofore military service. 80 that I could have returned ther•• !ut i~poa~ibl. I wanted to g,o to a larg.r sohool. So a day or 80 in ChiO&&O, while waiting for Geneya to join me her. vas tailor mad. tor me. I .pent the better part of a day .xploring this possibilit.y with the American College Bureau where my papers w.re on file. Mrs. 'Goodell, the head of this teach.rs· agency,. was of course most sympsthetic and cooperat~et SO she wu genUinely sorry that there waa nothing open in my tield just then. Such positions ahe did .haYe would not begin until Septe.aber, 1946,and that was ten months away. I already had my hand on the knob of' the office door, ready to leave, when abe 8~ddenly called ~.back. ~er., ah. aaid, I have juet discov.red something which it ~ight be worth while to explore. The Pr.sident of !lastings Coll.g., Dr. William H. French, is looking 1'or SOlleone to teaoh both philosophy and 8Oc1010gy, "hlcb is your sP.cialty, but though the job would begin 1n September. he bas added .. note saying that it the right person should oomo alon~ he might. be llble to -.-tart this p,r80n in the middle ot' the academio year, that is, in Pebruary next. -Of course we were both delighted with this discovery, eo t.hat I at one. told her to-r.lay my int.rest in this position, and at t.he- same tim. I asked her to .end Dr.JPrenoh a set ot my ered.ntiah. And. of eeur se I al80 promiaeci h.r t.hat I woould write 4ir8ctly to Dr. French telling him of rrry intere.t in t.hi_ position as, soon as I ~~ci r.joinod my fusily in Iblland. Of courle immediately after-I arrived in Ohica~ I had already tele­ phoned Geneya to say that I had arrived. ~he aad. arranrlllents for the caro of our three chUaren so that ahe JIligbt. come to- Ohicago where w. would meet. It. was whUe ah.· wu on the vay that I bad- 'that intoniew- at tbe Amerioan 00 11o&e Burea.t. And· 80 wben· she arriYed on Nov. 12(her lil1rthdayl )tYG\l can bag!ne t.he warm .and tend.r reuniGn whicb took plac. atter our 221DOnth. of ..psrdionl And lIOW to top otf'-our celebration ve could.- -leo .bare- tbe· we100me exoitement occasioned .y the pro8pect ot' ~ posaible job opportunity. What a· doublyjeyous home-colll1ng that-was' Since August ot 194' the '8JIl1l)" had \een renting a c~t.e and con':' venlent. one-floor 1lJC)dern hou1le at 246 W.la'th str.....1n Jblland. But. a short tble be to re my' ret.ur n this heu.. vas so 1cl, 80 _tbat - It.· was . neoU8ary fo1' the talll11y t~..: :p?-"t rent an upstairs apartJllent at. 11' W.1' 'th Str••on a corner directly south ot the'! I;,.,L Third Betor.ed Ohurch. This was to 'b. our loq.atioll \lDtU a job vas certain, and ," 0f­ 4'-- ... - - "..If +,. ft. not lon~ in com1n~. . . . _ ... '" ._ ./ j . ., ~ ~ ~ � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RozemaJ Title A name given to the resource Rozema, Jacob (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rozema, Jacob Description An account of the resource Jacob Rozema was born in the Netherlands and moved with his family to Michigan in 1930. He enlisted in the medical corps and served in the 148th station hospital in New Guinea before transferring to an evacuation hospital in Manila. In the Philippines, he served with front line combat units at times as well. He served in Japan after the war and contrasts what he observed of Japanese brutality in the Philippines with their treatment of the soldiers in the occupation forces. Extensive personal narrative written prior to this interview concerning New Guinea, the Liberation Campaign, Occupation Forces in Japan, return to the US and separation from active duty is appended to this interview outline. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-12-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d466a6fb7980690e39bb60bc6004ee3c.pdf bff996b217d648f2b5fafd80ad8bf82d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: William Ruiz Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/7/2012 Biography and Description William “Ninja” Ruiz is the brother of Mildred Ruiz-Sapp of Universes and they grew up in New York City on the Lower East Side. He earned his B.A. in Theatre at Bard College where he also studied poetry. Today he makes his home in Santurce, Puerto Rico and is a leading member of the Universes Theatre Ensemble. Universes is a New York-based theatre group that fuses poetry, jazz, hip hop, politics, blues and Spanish boleros to create its own productions which are performed on and off Broadway, nationally and internationally. One of their most recent productions is “Party People” (2012) which is primarily about the Black Panther Party and the Young Lords. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Can you give me your name, (inaudible) --? WILLIAM RUIZ: My name is William Ruiz, a.k.a. Ninja. March 24, 1979. I was born in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. JJ: Okay. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, Ninja. If you can give me your name, where you were born, and what year. WR: All right. My name is William Ruiz, a.k.a. Ninja. I was born on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, March 24, 1979, Bellevue Hospital, and I was raised in the Jacob Riis Projects on FDR Drive and 10th Street, and my father was a janitor at Bellevue Hospital, where I was born, and my mother was a home attendant at Pedro Albizu Campos Plaza. JJ: What’s that? Home attendant, what is that? WR: She’s a home attendant. She used to take care [00:01:00] of an old lady and help her with her daily life. She used to feed her in the morning, make sure she was bathed. She would take her to her doctor’s appointments and all that and just make sure that, you know, the lady was taken care of. I went through the whole public school system. I dropped out in ninth grade and then got back into high school very next semester, so I dropped out for a summer, but I didn’t get a high school diploma. I got a high school equivalency diploma from Satellite Academy on Forsyth Street. And then after I finished that, I graduated and I went 1 �to college at Bard College, which is Upstate New York, and, there, I studied theatre. And then, the year after I graduated, I joined up with the theatre ensemble known as Universes, [00:02:00] and I’ve been touring with them -JJ: What year was that? WR: That was 2005. I got with them and I ran with them on that first show called Slanguage, which was about the evolution of slang in the hood and the way that we speak. Even though it wasn’t an accepted language by society, we accepted it as our way of communicating with each other. To us, it was the accepted language, was to use words that are metaphorically linked to ideas. And then, in 2008, we - Universes, the crew that I joined - were sent out as ambassadors of culture for the United States by the US State Department and Jazz at Lincoln Center, and they sent us to Morocco, Tunisia, Romania, Turkey, Amsterdam, and London, and we [00:03:00] basically went out and performed for predominantly Muslim communities in each of those countries. And then, in 2009, we premiered a play called Ameriville in Louisville, Kentucky, which was about the way America and Americans reacted to Hurricane Katrina, you know, and everybody had mixed reactions to that, and that’s what we documented in that play. And, just today, July 7 -- what is today? 2012, we premiered our new show called Party People, which is about the effects on today’s communities by the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party and the Rainbow Coalition. So, that premiered today, and we’re gonna have a good, long run of it here in Ashland, Oregon, and then, hopefully, it’ll tour [00:04:00] around the country ’cause it’s a message that everybody needs to hear. This is history that’s quickly falling by 2 �the wayside, and not much has changed in our society, so it’s stuff that we need to always know about where we’ve been. That way, we can know where we’re trying to go in the future. JJ: How many brothers and sisters did you have? WR: I grew up in a apartment with three siblings. I had my younger brother, [Emanuel?], my sister, [Jeanie?] -- both of my sisters are older than me. Jeanie and [Mildred?], and both of our parents who worked, and worked, and worked, and finally, two years ago, retired, and they moved back to Puerto Rico. JJ: What town were they from? WR: They were from Lares, Puerto Rico, right? Both of them were from the same barrios. My father was from Callejones. [00:05:00] I’m not really sure where my mother was, but close by, and they didn’t meet each other until -- you know, when their families moved to the Lower East Side. My mother was 12, or 13, or something like that. My father was 15, I think. And then, the Lower East Side, they met at Pitt Pool on Houston Street and Pitt, and they met there, and fell in love, and they’ve been together ever since. And then, they just retired. My father just retired and moved right back to his old town in Callejones, and that’s -we’re all real proud of that, you know, that we made it back. And then, I moved -- JJ: Where was -- I’m sorry. [Go ahead?]. WR: I moved back to Puerto Rico four years ago as a result of gentrification in the Lower East Side. I could no longer afford to live there because NYU is expanding, and Columbia is expanding, [00:06:00] so all those slums that we come from, which wasn’t a good way to live, but that was our home, that kinda 3 �got all -- it all got bought up by NYU, so, now, that’s, like, student housing and places for them to hang out, and it’s all gettin’ renovated so that they could have a place to be, but we are gettin’ pushed out farther and farther. So, I wound up, after I graduated from college, renting a tenement apartment in Brooklyn for 1,050 a month when, four years before that, they was goin’ for, like, 200, 600 dollars a month. Nothing changed. They’re still the slums. They just cost more now. So, I did that for a year. JJ: Now, was this area Spanish, or --? WR: That was Bed-Stuy. JJ: Okay. I’m not -- WR: Bedford-Stuyvesant. JJ: I’m not familiar with (inaudible). WR: Yeah. It’s mixed. It’s Black, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Mexican, and Black is general ’cause there’s Black Puerto Ricans, Black [00:07:00] Dominicans, and Black Mexicans, so, you know, it’s everybody that is fighting for a crumb from the pot but ain’t gettin’ nothin’. That’s what was living there. But we were paying top dollar to live in the slums, and I couldn’t do that anymore, so I moved to Puerto Rico, where I had heard all these stories from my parents while I was growing up, how great it was, how you never starve there. If you’re hungry, you just pick fruits from the trees. We got chickens and everything, and I went there with that mentality of Puerto Rico back in the ’50s, basically, and that’s not what I found there. What I found was hood that was worse than the hood I was from. It was more kill or be killed -- 4 �JJ: [This is where in?] Puerto Rico? WR: Santurce. JJ: Santurce. WR: I live in Santurce, home of the Cangrejeros. JJ: [Oh, the?] Cangrejeros. [Was it a crab?] -- WR: It was a crabbing community way back in the day. Now, you know, you can still eat crabs there, but that’s now what they’re known for. [00:08:00] Now, they’re known for their access to the tourism that goes on in Old San Juan. All the people who work in Old San Juan, can’t afford to live in Old San Juan, live in Santurce or surrounding areas. So, that’s where I’m living now, and life is actually a lot harder. Even though people think of Puerto Rico, they think of a paradise, that’s not necessarily the case for everybody. The income is much smaller than the income earned in the United States. You can get by on less. The apartment that I live in in Puerto Rico is twice the size of any apartment I’ve ever seen in New York. I live four blocks from the beach. It’s beautiful. There’s always foliage on the trees. It’s never winter, but, you know, it’s -- JJ: Why did you choose? What was the reason -- you said because of what your parents were telling you [00:09:00] about Puerto Rico? WR: Yeah. It’s every Nuyorican kid’s dream to go back to Puerto Rico, and the reason it’s our dream is because of the way that our parents talk about it, with the nostalgia, you know, remembering the good old days. They were children back in those days. Anybody who was a kid remembers their childhood days, no matter where you’re from, with nostalgia. My son was born in Puerto Rico, and, 5 �one day, he’s gonna want to move to New York, thinking of the New York that I left behind, and, if he does that, he’s gonna realize it’s not his home, and that’s how I’ve come to realize Puerto Rico is not my home. Even though I live there now, I’ve lived there for the past four years, it’s like growing a cactus in the jungle, man. It’s not right. There’s something not right about it. I don’t click. I don’t -JJ: So, your home -- WR: -- fit in there. JJ: Your home is New York? WR: Nah, man. New York is not my home no more. New York is not the place I [00:10:00] left behind. New York belongs to other people now. I am a vagabond. JJ: That’s because of gentrification? WR: I live all over the place now. JJ: [You mean?] gentrification? WR: It was gentrification. That’s what forced me to move out, and now, when I go back and I visit my old neighborhood, it’s not the same neighborhood I left behind. It’s a lot cleaner, and there’s a lot less of us there. JJ: Okay. Now, you got into play, and acting, and all that, and drama school, and all that -- WR: Well -- JJ: What was shaping your mind to get into that? WR: I didn’t know I was gonna wind up being a actor. I was always a poet and a rapper, but then, when I got to college, I realized -- 6 �JJ: How did you get into that? WR: Well, when I got to college, I realized that I didn’t have enough education to succeed in any of the departments, but I was always a class clown when I was in public school. So, when I got to college, the only way I could use that skill was in the theatre department. To be a class clown was acceptable in the [00:11:00] theatre department. It meant that I wasn’t afraid of gettin’ up, and voicing my opinions, and actin’ a fool in front of everybody. So, I did pretty good in the theatre department. And then, after I graduated, Mildred, and Steve, and Flaco, and Lemon, and Jamal had this thing going with Universes, where they were blending poetry, and theatre, and music and making shows out of that. And so, they asked me to audition, so I did, and they let me run with them, and it was -you know, I do theatre because it is what I’m capable of doing, not because it’s the path that I’ve chosen. JJ: So, you’re a clown in school, and then -- WR: And I couldn’t read. I couldn’t read. JJ: [You couldn’t read?]. WR: I couldn’t do math, and I got accepted into this college because I did a great interview. I impressed them. I was smart. Just because I couldn’t read and I couldn’t do math didn’t mean [00:12:00] I wasn’t smart. I could watch a nature show, and I absorbed it all quickly. I could hear stories and absorb things really fast, so I was able to contribute in conversations. But then, when I realized that I couldn’t do well in my tests in college, I couldn’t read analytically, I couldn’t break down a book -- you know, I would read a book and get stuck on, like, three words 7 �and wouldn’t be able to finish the book. So, then, the next day, when I would get to the class, and the class is discussing the book, I’ll hear what a student is saying, and I jump off of that, off of my own experience, like I had read the book. So, I was -JJ: (inaudible). WR: -- talkin’ like I knew, but I was -- JJ: But what was the reason? I mean, was it something internally, or -- I mean, [or was it?] --? WR: I was doing well in college not because of what I was reading and learning there. I was doing well in college because I had [00:13:00] absorbed so much growing up in New York, and I related that to my professors and to my peers. Peers is a funny word ’cause they weren’t my peers. They were just the same age as me. JJ: Tell me a little bit about New York. I know [you kinda stopped, and we’re gonna get back?]. WR: All right. JJ: What I’m trying to find out is what was it like? I mean, you said you were absorbing stuff. What was it like growing up there? WR: All right. In New York, what I noticed all the way from kindergarten to high school, all my teachers were Jewish. All the students were either Puerto Rican, Dominican, or Black of some sort, so the teachers never related to us and looked down on us. I never had a teacher that could speak Spanish. I never had a teacher that knew what -- JJ: You say they looked down on you. How? 8 �WR: They [00:14:00] didn’t expect us to do well. You know, it was a factory. School was a student factory. That’s what it was. They were just crankin’ us out, givin’ us whatever grades. It didn’t matter. They were just putting us through, saying, ”Okay. We’ve got this many students coming in this year. Get ’em all through.” So, I didn’t learn much. The way the public school system in New York was run wasn’t -- they weren’t trying to ensure that we learned everything we could learn. They were trying to make sure that the numbers were right. Test scores were, on an average, 65 to 75. That’s fine. And the teachers had 30 students. Twenty-five of them made it to the next grade, that’s fine. That’s all that mattered. The teachers weren’t connecting with us. They weren’t teaching us things that were useful to us. They weren’t teaching us how to use our money wisely. They weren’t teaching us how to start a career for ourselves. What they were teaching us [00:15:00] instead was how to work for people. They weren’t teaching us about credit cards, about how to not get into debt, or how to use a credit card and maintain a balanced budget. They weren’t teaching us things that were useful to us. They were teaching us things that kept us as a cog in a machine. You know, they were teaching us how to find a job. Oh, they encouraged us to get jobs in McDonald’s, which makes sense, right? Get a job in McDonald’s. JJ: [Literally, they told you?] -- WR: No. Why not teach a kid how to create something when they’re open --? JJ: They told you to get a job at McDonald’s? WR: Yeah. They told us to start with jobs at McDonald’s. Apply -- 9 �JJ: What was their reasoning? WR: The rationale is that you’re probably gonna get it. You’re probably gonna get the job. Basically, in doing that, they taught us not to aim too high, and that’s what I got out of the public school system. And then, when [00:16:00] you get out of the public school system, what you’re faced with are -- you know, there’s the gangs that you either click with or you don’t. The thing is -- JJ: (inaudible) [schools?]? WR: They were in the schools. They were the people that were all around us. The gangs were made of us. See, the Lower East Side was split into sections, then, depending on what projects you were in. There was the Jacob Riis Projects. Then was Lillian Wald. No, Lillian Wald was up in the hill. There was the Baruch -- I went to PS 34, which is in Jacob Riis Projects. So, that was my elementary school, and, while I was in elementary school, I wasn’t in a gang, but that was my neighborhood. That was from 13th Street to 6th Street, was Jacob Riis projects, and -- JJ: And what was the name of the gang? WR: Dime Street Mobsters -- JJ: (inaudible). WR: -- was 10th Street. That was DSM. JJ: What were some of the other gangs? WR: Well, [00:17:00] there was that gang. There were others all in throughout there, but there were so many gangs. There wasn’t big mob gangs, you know? The gangs consisted of, like, 30 to 50 people, and it was just kids, and it wasn’t even - 10 �- there wasn’t a job to do. It was just your friends. That’s all it was. And then, when I went to junior high school, I went to Junior High School 22, which was in the Baruch Projects, or Baruch, and, there, I clicked with my cousin’s gang, the Delancey Street Boys, and that was all from the seventh grade to the ninth grade. That’s the gang I was with. And then, I went to high school in Seward Park, which was in the hills -JJ: So, what did they do? Delancey Street Boys, what --? WR: What did we do? We smoked weed, and we hung out with our girlfriends, and we listened to music. And then, there was a new wave of a Dominican [00:18:00] migration into the Lower East Side, so the Delancey Street Boys was mostly Puerto Rican and Black, so we started having beef with the Dominicans. JJ: About what year was this? WR: 1993, ’94. Any fights that we was having was with Dominicans at that time because we didn’t understand each other. You know, they had a Caribbean lifestyle, and the Puerto Ricans from New York at that time had a New York lifestyle. We thought that the Dominicans dressed funny because they wore shorts and shoes with no socks, and they had Caribbean-style haircuts. They didn’t speak English. So, we discriminated on them for that, and we abused them. JJ: What do you mean? WR: We fought. You know? They were in the ESL program, which was the English as a second language, [00:19:00] so the school was divided. There was the regular Junior High School 22. Then, there was Vanguard High School, which 11 �was also in our school. It was, like, 15 students were in that high school. And then, there was the English as a second language, which was mostly the Dominicans or kids from the Caribbean. They could have been Puerto Ricans too, but, to us, they were Dominicans, and we didn’t relate. We were very different, and I felt like my neighborhood was being taken over by them, so that’s why I felt like I had to stand guard. I had to fight them. So, whenever Delancey Street Boys would get out into the back of the schoolyard, and then the English as a second language students, they would come out, we would bully them and make fun of them, and I remember, one time, this kid -- we were messin’ around with this kid’s little brother, and then he came out and defended his little brother, and then, [00:20:00] you know, he got hit, and then all the Dominican kids came out to his defense, and then we brawled. And, now, today, I feel bad about that, feel like it was stupid, but we didn’t know any better. We didn’t know to think, like, we should be united. I didn’t think like that back then. I thought of what made sense, and what made sense to me, what everybody was thinking, was we should be fighting them and make them scared enough that they got to leave our neighborhood ’cause we thought it was our neighborhood, when -JJ: (inaudible). WR: -- in fact, it wasn’t our neighborhood. It’s never been our neighborhood. It was just the place where we were. JJ: But, I mean, it was a Puerto Rican neighborhood [before, right?]? 12 �WR: Yeah, but, even before that, it wasn’t a Puerto Rican neighborhood. It was a Jewish neighborhood. You know, it’s never been anybody’s. It belongs to whoever owns it, and we never owned it. JJ: So, before that, the Jews had problems with the Puerto Ricans (inaudible)? WR: [00:21:00] I don’t know. I wasn’t around back then. That was way before my time. JJ: But you definitely had problems with the Dominicans trying to take over your neighborhood. WR: During the early ’90s, yeah. That’s what the beef was, was with the Dominican kids. JJ: Okay. So, it wasn’t, like, urban renewal or anything like that? [They just?] -- WR: We didn’t know about it. JJ: This was a natural -- WR: We didn’t know about it. I think it was 1988 -- JJ: [I don’t wanna put words?] -- WR: Yeah, no, no. I don’t know. I’m not sure, but I think it was 1988 when the police came into Tompkins Square Park and took out all the homeless people. Before, my understanding of the village was that Tompkins Square Park was the village ’cause people had tents set up in there. That’s where all the homeless people were. So, that’s why I understood it to be called the village. I don’t know that that’s right. That was my understanding of it, and, sometime around there, the cops came in and beat everybody out of the [00:22:00] park, and that should have represented the beginning of gentrification right there, but I didn’t know it at 13 �the time. None of us knew it. We just thought they were cleaning up the neighborhood, and cleaning up the neighborhood meant great things. It meant that, now, we could use the park for a couple of years, until all the artists start (inaudible) college students start moving in, and then college students who don’t have to pay the rent, but their parents pay the rent no matter what it costs, so the slum lords are like, ”Oh, so I could charge you 900 dollars for the rent, and you still gonna pay it?” So, they started charging 900, then 1,000, then up to 3,000 dollars. JJ: So, the process, if I’m understanding what you’re saying, is, first, there was a Puerto Rican community. Then, artists came in? WR: Yeah. It was a Puerto Rican community. Then, a bohemian community started getting built -- JJ: Bohemian [meaning?] (inaudible). WR: -- in the gaps. Right. And then, after that, you know, this arts culture gets built, and from that, what happens is scholarly people start coming in and saying, ”I wanna be [00:23:00] part of this artist community. It’s beautiful.” So, they start moving in, and they can afford more than the artists ’cause a artist is broke by nature. If you got money, I don’t know, really, what business you got being a artist. Art comes out of struggle. Art comes out of pain. Anyway, that ain’t gonna make sense to somebody, but it makes sense to me. JJ: Right. So, the rents were a little lower [then?]. WR: Before that Tompkins Square Park riot happened, the rent was low. It was the slums. It was a hard time. Nobody had any money. Then, the cops came in, 14 �and cleaned up Tompkins Square Park, and started beautification of the neighborhood. JJ: The cops started this? WR: No. The cops cleaned it up, and then, from somewhere, somebody decided they were gonna invest money in cleaning up this park, obviously with the goal of raising [00:24:00] the value of the land, which, yeah, that’s great, but can you raise the value of the land for us, who live there? That wasn’t the intention. When they started cleanin’ up the parks in my neighborhood in the projects, we should have seen what was coming next, was that they would clean up the neighborhood and then move us out so they could move a different breed of people in. They didn’t clean it for us. At first, we thought they were cleaning it for us to give us a better place to live in. That was not the plan. JJ: So, you believed that they were fixing it up for the Puerto Rican community at that time? WR: We did. We believed that they were fixing up our neighborhood for us. JJ: Did they say that in meetings, or --? WR: I didn’t go to meetings. I didn’t know -- JJ: Newspapers? WR: I was not an active participant in civics at all. I didn’t think like that. JJ: But you felt that they were [changing the neighborhood?]. WR: I thought they were really changing the neighborhood and fixing [00:25:00] it up for us. I thought it was a new time and things were gonna get better for us. It was during Clinton years, when I started being awake to it. We had so much 15 �money. America was rich, you know? And they were fixing, so I thought they were fixing it because we had this surplus of money. So, it just made sense. Yeah, of course. We got all this money now. Let’s fix everything. Great. Let’s get better education and everything. It wasn’t for us, though. They fixed it so that the land value would go up so that the rent could go up, and, as a result of the rent going up, we could no longer afford to live there anymore. JJ: Now, this was your community. How did you feel about that, that they were doing that, they were making these changes and --? WR: When I realized it, I was in college. It was my first year of college, and I went away, and I was away for three months, and then I came back, and I saw. If I had stayed there, I wouldn’t have seen it ’cause the change is so gradual, [00:26:00] but I was gone for three months, and I came back, and, all of a sudden, there were white kids that looked like football players walkin’ around in my projects, and that was unheard of, and I was really confused. I was like, where’s the crew? Where is everybody? Everybody was in jail because they had built a new precinct on 9th Street, right in front of the projects, and anybody that was hangin’ out, they would find a reason to arrest you. So, basically, our guards weren’t there anymore. Our guards were all in jail, you know, people who would guard against these football jocks walkin’ around in our neighborhood. I know that doesn’t sound like a bad thing to a lot of people, but, to us, it represented a change that we couldn’t fight against. So -- JJ: So, what was your response to that? 16 �WR: My response was I got some of my friends together, and, you know, the response was [00:27:00] violence. If we saw people walking around in our neighborhood that weren’t from our neighborhood, we would harass them to let them know that this was the Lower East Side. You don’t come in here without permission. You don’t come down here without having family in here. And vandalism. We would watch, like, if somebody that wasn’t from the projects would park their car in the projects, we would wait for them to leave and puncture their tires or smash a window. You know, let ’em know that this is not the place to park. JJ: Where did you get this idea to fight ’em? WR: I don’t know that we got the idea to fight them. It was just a instinct, you know? Even though those people weren’t united as a gang, we saw them as the other, so they were the obvious enemy to us. They were the new [00:28:00] Dominicans. White Americans. We were defending our neighborhood. It’s natural. It’s tribal. It’s an instinct to defend your territory, and I thought that was my territory, so I was defending it the best way I knew how. No need for confrontation. I’ll just let you park your car there. Go ahead. Park your car, and then walk away, and then try to drive out at night. Good luck. And then, vandalism was another thing. I felt like they were cleaning it up, and that’s when I started realizing they weren’t cleaning it up for us. They were cleaning it up so that those people could come through here, and that’s when I started really vandalizing and doing a lot of graffiti, which I thought was art anyway. I thought it was great, so to put it up was kind of cool, and I knew it would keep them out 17 �’cause they were scared of it. And, you know, breaking new things that they had put up in the park, or they would plant a tree, and I would break it, and I felt like that was the only [00:29:00] way we could keep our neighborhood, was if I destroyed it, which sucks, you know, that the only way we could keep our things if we kept it dirty, and here they are, trying to fix it, and the older folks don’t understand why we’re destroying everything, but that was the logic to me at the time, was, if you wanna stay here, you got to destroy the good things that they’re bringing in. We didn’t bring those good things in. They brought it in. They’re buying us out, basically, with trash, stuff that we don’t need, really, ’cause -JJ: So, you had this logic, but (inaudible) -- WR: It was confused logic. It wasn’t logic. JJ: I don’t understand where it comes from because, I mean, (inaudible) -- WR: It was rage. JJ: [Why you just didn’t?] let it go? Just let it go like everybody else [that didn’t?] do anything? Why was it so [deep?] with you is what I’m saying. WR: ’Cause -- JJ: [Other people just let it go?]. WR: -- I was -- I couldn’t just let it go. [00:30:00] JJ: Had you read about gentrification [in other areas?]? WR: No, I didn’t know how to read. I didn’t know how to read -- I just knew it was something wrong. I knew that it was our neighborhood, and all these friends that I had growing up with wasn’t around anymore, and I just linked it. It has to be because of them. It has to be because of these people who are here now that 18 �my friends are not here no more, and I had rage, and we didn’t have a leader to direct us and say, ”No, the right thing to do is this.” We didn’t have that. We didn’t have a smart person in my neighborhood. There was nobody telling us how to do it the right way. We were just the crazy kids on the corner who couldn’t be told what to do. We didn’t have respect for our elders. [00:31:00] There was no real reason to. Nobody had ever stood out to us as, you know, a community leader. If there was one -- there probably was one in the Lower East Side. I never knew who he was or she was. They never presented themselves to us. So, me and my boys, we did the opposite of what those people wanted us to do. Those people wanted us to leave all the stuff nice, but they weren’t down with us, so why were we gonna do what they wanted us to do? So, we were like, no. Fuck it. You’re gonna go plant trees in our neighborhood without askin’ us permission? We gonna take ’em out. You know, or you gonna park your nice cars here? Go ahead. You got to buy new tires, though. Don’t ever park here again. JJ: What were your parents thinking? WR: My parents didn’t know I was doing that. JJ: [00:32:00] And did they say anything about (inaudible)? WR: My parents thought I was going to church all the time. My parents were not revolutionary at all. My father was very, you know, just keep your head down. Just do your job. Do your job. He worked as a janitor in Bellevue Hospital, and he went to work almost every day. He did overtime hours. He busted his ass working so that he could keep us fed, and keep the rent paid, and lead us by 19 �being a good example. My mother was in church all the time. She was a Pentecostal, and she believed very much that God was gonna solve our problems, so just pray. When things are wrong, just pray. Don’t get up and do things out of anger. Just pray, and God’ll make a way, and I believed that for a long time, but then I stopped believing that God was gonna make a way, and I stopped believing that keeping your head down and going with the stream was a good idea, [00:33:00] but they didn’t know I was doing that. My mom thought I was going to church all the time. My father thought I was in school all the time, but, really, I was being a teenager. JJ: And this was during high school. WR: During high school, mm-hmm. And then, when I got to college, you know, it was different. I lived Upstate. I was with a bunch of white kids. JJ: You said you dropped out (inaudible). WR: I dropped out of high school for a semester. Actually, I didn’t drop out of high school. I didn’t go to high school, but I was still registered, and then I got left back, so they were gonna make me do the ninth grade again for a third time, so I was like, ”Nah, forget that.” So, that’s when I enrolled in a second chance high school. It was a magnet school called Satellite Academy on Forsyth Street, and that was the first time I had any teachers of color, and that was when I started [00:34:00] learning for the first time, was my -- JJ: Before that, it was all -- WR: -- tenth and eleventh grade. JJ: -- Jewish teachers, or --? 20 �WR: Before, they were people who didn’t understand us. You know, they weren’t from our culture. JJ: You didn’t like them? WR: It wasn’t that I didn’t like them. I mean, I thought it was normal, but they didn’t even know how to speak to us. They couldn’t relate to the students. They couldn’t help us. They weren’t trying to help us. That wasn’t the goal. JJ: You could feel that [there wasn’t?] (inaudible)? WR: Right. No, they weren’t teaching us how to do great things. JJ: Were they angry? Were they --? WR: No, they weren’t angry. They were very nice and passive, but they also didn’t care if we didn’t care. But that was different in high school. In high school, I noticed that those teachers of color, they did care. If we didn’t care, they cared [00:35:00] that we didn’t care, and they went out of their way to make us care, and, you know, they told us why it’s important. That was when I first learned about Taínos. Before that, none of my Jewish teachers could have ever told me about a Taíno. They didn’t know what that was. I don’t know that they could have found Puerto Rico on a map. There was no way they could teach us about ourselves. They didn’t come from us, and it wasn’t until high school, and that was when my rebellious phase was really taking over. That’s when I was all about hanging with the clique, and smashing things, and taggin’ my name up all over places, and seeing where I could climb up higher than anybody else and get my name up higher, you know. JJ: So, (inaudible), [you mean more?] like a gang type of -- 21 �WR: Yeah. JJ: Or just (inaudible). WR: Right. Right. That’s what I mean by rebellious, is just [00:36:00] doing what people didn’t want me to do, you know, doing bad. JJ: And this was in high school. WR: It started in junior high school, when I really liked fighting. JJ: But this was before the teachers, the new teachers. WR: Right. Right. When I got those new teachers in the Satellite Academy, that’s when I started changing, and I think that’s when I started becoming aware of the gentrification, but it was because of those teachers. If we had had teachers from the beginning that could tell us what we were coming from, what we were going through, I think my mind would have developed in a whole different way. I would have been alert to that all, and it wasn’t until my tenth, and eleventh, and twelfth grade that I started finding out about Taínos, finding [00:37:00] about gentrification, about when Puerto Ricans got to New York. You know, stuff that I cared about or stuff that I realized then I cared about. I didn’t know I cared about that. I didn’t know it existed. I didn’t know to think about that, and that would make a big difference if we were actually taught by people from our own culture. That would make a big difference. JJ: So, this is when you begin thinking about the theatre? All of a sudden, you think theatre, or --? WR: No, no. I was afraid to perform, but I was a performer. JJ: Was this high school? 22 �WR: No, it was in college when I started doing theatre. JJ: And you were studying what? What was your major? WR: My first major was photography, but then, in order to be a photography student, you had to be able to afford film. You had to be able to afford a camera. You had to be able to afford all the chemicals to develop your pictures and all that, and that’s when I realized, oh, you can’t be [00:38:00] poor and be a photography major. JJ: Photography why? Why photography? WR: Because my sister and my brother-in-law -- Mildred and Steve started a community center in the Bronx called The POINT, and, in there, they had a program from International Center of Photography, and that’s where I started learning photography. This was while I was still in high school, but I was going to this community center, and I started learning photography, and I used to go around the neighborhood and take pictures about things in the neighborhood, and I liked that, and people from the neighborhood liked to see themselves in pictures. So, you know, I’ll take a picture of some people hangin’ out on the corner, and then, the next day, I develop it and bring it to them, be like, ”Yo, this is y’all,” and they’d like that, and that made people happy and made ’em smile, and I liked that. So, then, when I got to college, I was like, ”I wanna be a photographer, and I wanna go back and take pictures of the neighborhood,” and that’s when I found out that Jacob Riis, whom our projects were named after, was this famous Jewish guy who got famous because he photographed the slum conditions that the Jewish [00:39:00] people were being forced to live in, and I 23 �was like, ”Oh, man, I could be like the next Jacob Riis for Puerto Ricans.” So, that was my dream, but then I realized that you can’t be poor and be a photography major. That was for kids who could afford that or who got grants for that, and I didn’t know how to get a grant. And then, I couldn’t do anything in any other department because I couldn’t read well. I couldn’t do math, but -JJ: What was your problem with reading? (inaudible). WR: The first book I had read was in college, was during my freshman seminar, was this book, Why Elephants Weep. It was about anthropomorphism and how humans give human traits to animals. Like, ”Oh, that dog is happy, or that dog is sad.” We don’t know how a dog feels. We don’t know if a dog feels happy or sadness. I’m sure they do, but [00:40:00] that’s what it was about. So, that was the first book I read, and that was in college. Why hadn’t I read a book before that? I could read ’cause I read comic books, and I read subtitles on movies and stuff like that. JJ: So, you were able to read. You just (inaudible). WR: I could read a little bit, yeah. JJ: [You just didn’t like the other books that?] -- WR: I just couldn’t understand. You give me a book with chapters in it and, like, I wasn’t accustomed to reading a book for a long time. JJ: Right. But comic books was fine? WR: Yeah. It’s short. You read 15 pages, and you’re done, and it’s adventure, and it’s only a few words here and there. It’s pictures. So, yeah, I didn’t -- JJ: Those hard books made you think that you couldn’t do something. 24 �WR: I didn’t think I could read. And then, I started reading plays, and I read this Oscar Wilde play, and it had masks and stuff, and I was like, ”Oh, masks are cool.” JJ: One day, you just took on to reading a play, or --? WR: [00:41:00] Yeah. My boy, [Juan Carlos?], he was in the theatre department. He was Dominican, and he was like, ”Yo, you should come and audition for this play,” and I was like, ”All right.” So, I went and auditioned, and I got the role, and, now, I was like, oh, shit. I got to read? So, I had to read this script, and I read it, and I played the role, and I did well, and I was like, ”I could do this. I could do this.” And I could read. I just had never challenged myself like that. So, I started reading, and then I read Beckett’s Waiting for Godot, and I loved Beckett. I loved absurdists, crazy theatre. I liked that, and then I got really into it, and I was like, ”Oh, this is --” JJ: What do you mean, crazy theatre? ’Cause I’m not -- WR: Like, things that don’t make sense. In this play, I got this character, Primo, right? Who’s basically -- JJ: This is Party People? In Party People? WR: In Party People. I wrote this [00:42:00] character named Primo, who’s basically a warped revolutionary, but you don’t know what side he stands on. You don’t know what he’s fighting for, what’s his cause, and, to me, that’s absurd, is somebody who devotes theirselves 100 percent entirely to something, but you can’t quite tell what that thing is. He fights for this side and that side, and, in doing so, he makes both sides fight against each other. I like writing stuff like that, stuff that confuses the audience and makes them agree with me and 25 �disagree with me at the same time. And I noticed that Beckett was really good at that. And then, you know, I did a couple of plays. I got through my four years. I struggled through it. I had to get by on charisma, but I made it through, and I graduated, and I got a bachelor’s degree, and [00:43:00] 25,000 dollars of debt. JJ: But a bachelor’s degree in what --? WR: In theatre. JJ: In theatre. WR: In theatre, and I minored in archaeology. This was a big thing for me. I wasn’t a good reader, and my archeology professor knew that, but I had a great understanding for timespan and human characteristics in tribal situations. Because of comin’ up in a gang, I understood how the Lenape tribes in New York, which, today, we call the Delawares -- how they related to each other in small groups. So, I had this great understanding for how deep the layers of earth -- what they represented by color change, what timespan each strata represented. So, when I would dig, I understood the wall that I was looking at, but I couldn’t understand the book that explained what I was looking at when I was looking at the wall, and my professor [00:44:00] noticed that in me. He noticed that I could look -- I could dig down and dig a straight wall down into the ground and show the different stratigraphy, and where there used to be rivers, and where somebody threw a bunch of clam and oyster shells -- this is where they were sitting -- or where there was a fire hearth, where they might have sat and made camp for the night while they (inaudible). I understood how to read to ground, and my professor saw that in me, and he made me the crew chief. I was 26 �his crew chief from the time I graduated for four more years after college, and I led his digs, and, you know, there were some students who were great readers, and he had them analyze things in a different way, but me, he would sit me inside of a pit and have me look at a wall and explain to him what happened there for the last 8,000 years, and I could do that by [00:45:00] looking at the layers of dirt, and the angles, and what the dirt was made out of, the [acidity?]. It was all this stuff that went into play, and I could read a wall of dirt, but I couldn’t read a book. It was sad but really cool at the same time. So, I did that, and I don’t know. I think my brain just works in a different way from most people. JJ: Tell me about Party People. I mean, what is it about? [I mean, you did it today?]. WR: All right. Party People -- that’s a deep question. What is Party People about? JJ: And, you know, you can start with how you guys began thinking about it, (inaudible). WR: I think Party People is about -- JJ: And why. WR: It’s about aging, and it’s about passing the baton to the next generation. Nobody ever passed the baton to me or anybody that I knew in my [00:46:00] generation. Nobody that had been through what we were going through in the Lower East Side had passed the baton to us. None of our elders in the Lower East Side told us, ”Oh, yeah, we went through that 10 years ago or 20 years ago. We know what you’re going through right now. You just got to do this and this.” We didn’t get advice from nobody. Nobody ever passed us the baton. And then, they got 27 �older, and older, and older, and either disgruntled, or felt like they failed, or felt sad about the choices that they made, but they never led us. You know, they could have had a giant army of people if they had just stuck with it, and let shit go, and taught us, but there was never anybody from them ever around to teach us, so we had to learn it just the same way they had to learn it, so we never got anywhere. We got about as far as they did, and I think Party People is a reflective [00:47:00] look at what happened to everybody 40 years later. Where are their minds today? Where are their children, and where are their children’s children? What is everybody going through today as a result of all that war that went on back then, the post-traumatic stress that everybody got, the -- you know, some people feel like they failed. Some people feel like they succeeded. Some people gave up, and left it behind, and never turned back towards it again, and some people are still struggling today with it, and still fighting for people’s rights, and fighting for justice, and I think that the main thing that my character is talking about in the play is a feeling of having been left behind to fend for ourselves instead of having been taken under the wing of all those people that fought for us and trained to continue the fight [00:48:00] for the next generations that are coming behind us. I think that’s what my character’s trying to talk about, is that we kinda got left behind instead of fostered. You know, we didn’t have mentors. JJ: But that’s the character Primo. WR: That’s the Primo character. JJ: Okay. And what about the rest of the play, Party People? [What’s that?] --? 28 �WR: The thing is that the play touches on a lot of topics. It depends on who you are, the viewer, when you come into the room. Each person that sees the show is gonna leave with a different message. Some people are gonna leave with the message of, damn, we did give up. Some people are gonna leave with the message of that’s right, we are still fighting. Some people are gonna leave with the message of, you know, this wasn’t all based on hate. The whole revolution was not based on hate. It was based on love for people’s communities. Some people are gonna leave with [00:49:00] all those people just had guns. They were scary. You know, it depends on who you are and what frame of mind you’re in when you come see the show. That is gonna dictate what you leave the show with ’cause we touch on so many different topics, and it was written by three people -- JJ: Like what kind of -- WR: -- but we had so many collaborators. JJ: What kind of topics (inaudible)? What kind of topics? WR: Our topics range from historical events that happened in the ’60s, and ’70s, and ’80s to concepts that were going on in people’s minds at those times, what revolution meant to different people. Not everybody had the same definition of revolution. There’s an FBI character in our play. To him, obviously, revolution is a whole different thing. His concept of revolution [00:50:00] is quelling the people’s struggle, and that restores a safe America to him. Other people see a safe America by feeding the children and making sure that they go to school with a full belly and the vitamins that they need so that they can learn. For some 29 �people, the revolution was about making sure old people were safe and got escorted to cash their social security checks and made sure that they didn’t get robbed on the way back home. For some people, the revolution was about fighting police brutality and making sure that we weren’t being abused by an oppressive system of outsiders that were in our community. For some people, the revolution was about education. For some people, the revolution was about living standards. For some people, the revolution was about working standards. Everybody fought for a different thing, but we all fought together, and that went away at some point. You know, that [00:51:00] wasn’t around when I was a kid. Nobody was fighting for anything when I was a kid. We were fighting for territory. We were fighting for control of drug sales. We weren’t united when I was growing up. We were at war with ourselves, and we didn’t know that, in the ’60s, there were people fighting together for something. We didn’t know about all that history. I didn’t learn about the Black Panthers ’til I got to college. I didn’t learn about the Young Lords ’til about the end of my college. You know, I didn’t know about that stuff. I didn’t know about what y’all did. Nobody ever taught us that. That legend, that cultural history didn’t exist for us. Maybe for some people, but not for me. I didn’t know about any of that. Nobody taught me that. JJ: So, you go to college, and you hear about these groups, the Young Lords -- WR: [00:52:00] Yeah. When I went to college -- JJ: Black Panthers. WR: -- Bobby Seale came and spoke at my college, and I went because all the revolutionary cool kids went to that talk. I didn’t know who Bobby Seale was. I 30 �just thought it was a cool name. One of the Wu-Tang members, one of the members of Wu-Tang Clan, that was his nickname. I was like, ”Oh, that’s hot. Who’s this dude?” Talkin’ about the Black Panthers. ”Oh, I heard about the Black Panthers. What’s that about?” And then, I went, and I heard him talk, and the stuff that he was talkin’ about was about -- you know, it wasn’t about what I thought it was. I thought it was about fighting, and shooting cops, and stuff like that, and it wasn’t about that. It was about making life better for the people who didn’t have that, people who weren’t born with healthcare from their parents, people who had to worry about where their next meal was gonna come from, [00:53:00] people whose houses were deteriorating, who lived in conditions where asbestos was everywhere. I remember we got taken out of our school my eighth grade. All the kids basically got evacuated out of my school for two months because they had to clean out the asbestos, and that was in the eighth grade, so I’m like, ”Damn, how many years of asbestos have I been breathing in?” It was just a little too late, and I think, once I realized that there were people that were fighting for our people at one point, I felt abandoned. I felt like my generation got abandoned, and we didn’t have anybody fightin’ for us, and we were left to fight against each other ’cause we didn’t see that there was a real enemy, and, still, we don’t really know who that real enemy is, but [00:54:00] it just doesn’t make sense that we’re subjected to the conditions of living that we’re subjected to. And I think a lot of my life was just blind fury. I didn’t know why I was fighting. I didn’t know what I was fighting for, but I knew I had to fight because I felt like a sucker if I didn’t. It was blind fury all the way until I got to 31 �college, and then I kind of just gave up. It was too late at that point. I wasn’t even in my community anymore. I was living in the suburbs, you know. It was too late already. JJ: Now, your sister Mildred and -- you said Jamal? WR: It was Mildred, Steve, Jamal, yeah. JJ: So, they were already together at Universes. WR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Were they already in theatre? WR: Yes. They were already doin’ it. JJ: So, did they shape your decision also, or --? WR: [00:55:00] No. No. That’s not why I -- not at all. Not at all. I think I was acting up since I was a little kid. You know, I did church plays here and there, but that was -- JJ: Does it run in your family, or were you the first generation? WR: I don’t know. I mean, no. Nobody in my family was theatre. Mildred wasn’t in theatre. She was a lit major, a literature major. JJ: [Literature, okay?]. WR: My mother sang to us. JJ: [She sang professionally?]? WR: But she -- no, she didn’t sing professionally. She was a home attendant. She didn’t have dreams of grandeur. My father was a janitor. JJ: You guys started theatre at the same time, [basically?]? WR: No. Mildred went to Bard in 1988, and she didn’t start doin’ theatre -- 32 �JJ: Bard is a -- WR: Bard College. Bard, Annandale, New York. Dutchess County. [00:56:00] And she didn’t start doing theatre until she got there, and then Steve -- I don’t know. I don’t know when he started. I think he started there, but I was a poet since I was in junior high school. I was a rapper. You know, that was my thing. I loved rapping. I loved telling stories for my neighborhood in the form of rap, and that was my performance. I used to go to the Nuyorican Poets Café, and go down there, and battle. And then, when I got to college, I was like, ”Oh, I can use this.” Oh, matter of fact, in college, my poetry professor was Bob Holman, who was one of the founders of the Nuyorican Poets Café, and he was who made me realize that I was a poet ’cause I didn’t realize I was a poet. I went to his class, and I was like, ”Yeah, nah, I’m actually -- I’m a rapper. I don’t do poems.” And I read him one of my raps, and he was like, ”Oh, yeah, that’s poetry.” And then, he started gettin’ that into my head, that my rhymes were actually poems, [00:57:00] and that’s when I learned how to write poetry. Basically just turn my rhymes into poems. JJ: Okay. So, I guess we’ll kinda wrap it up [if you can?] explain some of the other plays that Universes [has done?]. WR: All right. So, I mean, Steve can tell you this better than I can. JJ: (inaudible). WR: But, yeah, there was -- yeah, I think I’ll let Steve talk to you about the history of Universes. JJ: Okay. 33 �END OF AUDIO FILE 34 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f49ab8638d30786a01569e04f1fe96a.mp4 bf2d141cf48d595562fafbe88c53af06 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry William Ruiz vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Nueva York (N.Y.) Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Partido Pantera Negra Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Ruiz_William Title A name given to the resource William Ruiz video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ruiz, William Description An account of the resource William “Ninja” Ruiz is the brother of Mildred Ruiz-Sapp of Universes and they grew up in New York City on the Lower East Side. He earned his BA in Theatre at Bard College where he also studied poetry. Today he makes his home in Santurce, Puerto Rico and is a leading member of the Universes Theatre Ensemble. Universes is a New York-based theatre group that fuses poetry, jazz, hip hop, politics, blues and Spanish boleros to create its own productions which are performed on and off Broadway, nationally and internationally. One of their most recent productions is “Party People” (2012) which is primarily about the Black Panther Party and the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--New York (N.Y.) Arts, Puerto Rican--New York (N.Y.) Black Panther Party Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30bab714fd037580575d11602b87994c.mp4 b5b7b1788f3cc51e692762f4e0d81305 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/18f03c433728187771468f5ee7118b7f.pdf 2c89bbe207117fea4c2a37772d1c995a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam, Cold War Interviewee: Paul Ryan Length of Interview: 01:45:49 Background:                 He was born in Brooklyn, NY, in 1952 He lived in Brooklyn until he was 3 years old. Then his family would move to Long Island and live there until his first year of high school. He would then move to Manhattan. He would attend Xavier High School, a Roman Catholic day school and participation in the military was compulsory. This was junior army ROTC at the time, and throughout his four years of high school he would participate in this. He would graduate in 1971. At the time, the military service would be made voluntary for people. And it would be a concern for the school to continue operating as a military compulsory school, given what was going on in Vietnam. If things changed, it would be a huge deal, as they had to wear uniforms to class every day. The kids who attended his school would have many different opinions of the war in Vietnam. There was no overwhelming opinion one way or the other. Interestingly enough, his school would be located near Greenwich Village, Manhattan, the NY center of “hippiedom” This hippie sort of lifestyle would affect the kids and their opinions, but more than that is the fact that the kids and their parents would see things very differently because they are simply individuals with different points of view. Those who would be in favor of the war would find themselves in a higher rank than those who didn’t. Those who did not favor the war would take their feelings of the war and basically place them on the military as well. Because of this, they did not achieve such a good military position. Living near the Village, he would have to walk through it. He was called fascist a few times and you were very noticeable because of your uniform. He had to use public transportation every day to get to school. He never had an issue with it though. People would mostly look at you funny, but nothing harmful was ever said or done. It was only going through Greenwich Village when he had the trouble and even then it was only occasionally. They learned to avoid the places that gave them too much trouble. (5:40) Although there was no official obligation for the student to go into the military after they graduated, some did. Those who had done well and found it interesting, like he did, would go on to some sort of military service. This may not have been a military career. The school was an all-male school, and still is today. �  Most of the men who graduated from the school would go into some sort of officer’s school. When he graduated, he decided to join ROTC. Training School (7:30)                  He thought about flying, but decided that he didn’t like that too much. That left the choice between the Army and the Navy. What would help him make his decision would be an extra-curricular activity that he joined in high school. In this, he would do drills and shoot rifles and they were pretty good at it. One of the teams that he competed against was the Navy ROTC unit out of Villanova. The guys there would be Navy and Marine Officers and he thought they were really cool. So he applied and was accepted at Villanova, for a Navy ROTC scholarship. However, at the last minute, his advisor convinced him to change to Notre Dame, which would have a little bit better academic level. He would begin at Notre Dame, in the ROTC Navy unit in 1971. For him, moving from NY to South Bend came with some condescension. Being a big city boy, he felt he was really coming down the ladder. This would change rather quickly when he actually started school. The level of academic performance was much more than he had ever thought it would be and he would spend so much time on his education that he simply did not have time to ponder on the notion that he was at the edge of the world. (10:00) This would keep them out of trouble for the most part as well, though they did party some. He and his buddies did have an understanding that school was not going to be easy, so they spent most of their time studying rather than partying. While there he would learn the basics of the basics. Left-face, right-face, and all of those other things that are needed to work for the military. They would also take academic courses. Usually some 3-hour courses were the norm, followed by physical training, though not like today. Other than that participation and keeping their hair relatively short, they were just like anybody else there on campus. The number of ROTC participants was a small enough number that they would not have to keep them separated from the rest of the school population. There were some days when he had to wear his uniform for half a day. Other than that, he was just like any other undergraduate at college. He really grew to like the life as well. Because of the feelings some people had from Vietnam, some ROTC programs were removed from colleges. On other campuses, the ROTC participants would be harassed by other people opposed to the war. When he was in college, he learned about a story that had happened about a year before he got there. A group of people had gathered in front of the administrator’s building and was protesting about war in general. The president of the university came out of his office and informed the students that they had 15 minutes to disperse or they would be expelled. �      Without so much as a whimper of “this is unfair treatment,” they had all gone. For the four years he was there, there were only 2 visible protests that he can recall happening. One was when he was walking to the ROTC building and someone had spray-painted graffiti all over the side of the building in response to some world event, he can’t remember which. The second time, he was in class and movement had caught the corner of his eye. Outside the window, there was a group of protesters with signs protesting against the Yom-Kipper War, which happened in October 1973. It was over before he got out of class. By the time he graduated in 1975, the Vietnam War would basically be over. (16:20) At that point, because retaining people in the armed forces had been such a task, he would be placed in the Navy and not the Navy Reserves, for almost 5 years. Training in San Diego (17:40)                Two weeks before he graduated, he would get his orders to go out to San Diego. He had a number of training courses that he was required to partake in, which would last about six months. He had 10 days leave and went home to visit. When it was time to head out to San Diego, he would take a plane to Cornado. From there he would spend from June until December going to different schools and going through different courses learning about all the things he would need to know for his job. The first school, the longest one, was called “Surface Warfare Officer’s School Basic Course” and had only been established a couple years before by the navy. Although they would have some time in the summer to learn how to be aboard a ship, this was not enough, and so they would have to attend this class. Here, they would learn how to do many things, from steering a ship to doing paperwork. They would learn about the make-up of the ship, the rules of the Navy, how the ship is balanced. They would also learn, and practice running different drills with simulators. They would have to understand a tactical strategy, which does not necessarily mean combat situations. Even in a simulated environment, people get stressed, voices are raised in order for you to get the most attention and it can end in disaster sometimes. It takes a lot of practice for you to learn, even in a simulation, to try to keep calm and have each person play their part without things getting out of hand. (21:55) He would also get training in biochemical warfare, which everyone had to know. Eventually he would get special training for his job, which was the Combat Information Center Officer. The Combat Information Center is where the various systems, such as weapons, radar, etc. information of the ship go to. From here, the officer would have to decide on how these ships systems need to be employed tactically. He would also have collateral duties that he would have. When he got to his ship, he would be part of a small crew, 280 enlisted and 12 officers. He would serve on a destroyer. �          There were not so many on the ship because the Navy was conducting an experiment to see if a ship could run on 80% of the crew. Short answer: it didn’t work. With a crew that small, you are expected to do other things. His duty was to act as a legal officer. His ship was too small for a JAG officer, so he would take a course for a month learning how to be a non-lawyer legal officer. He would learn much more than he did in his previous schooling about the military justice system. He would learn how to investigate crimes that were to be proceeded by a court. He would also learn how to enforce Article 15, which in the Navy is called Office Hours. In this, he would punish minor offenses without having to go to trial. As the legal officer, he was responsible for all the processing of the minor offenses and the handful of court martials that he had to deal with in his three years there. He would also have another collateral duty in which he did not receive any training, which was Narcotics Bulk Custodian. They had a sick bay on the ship, but no doctor. They had a couple of medical corpsmen. In the bay, there was a safe and in there was morphine and other narcotics. Once a month, he would have to go in with a corpsman and inventory what they had. Sure enough it was all still there. There was 30 or 40 miniature bottles of brandy that had been there since the 1960’s. One time, when they were trying to get the ship refueled, it had been kind of a rough night. Water was coming over the bough and things were getting dangerous. As a reward of finishing the job safely, the captain of the ship would break the rules and allow the men to have some of the brandy. But, in order to keep inventory, they had to drink the brandy in the sick bay. They were not allowed to take it back to their room and drink it leisurely. It was the only time, in his career that there was an authorized consumption of alcohol on a ship. Active Duty (29:30)         When he was done with his training, he would be assigned to the ship USS Agerholm. It was the oldest destroyer on active duty in the Navy at the time. It was built in 1946. The ship was named for a Marine who was killed in WWII. As an older vessel, it did not have some of the comforts that some of the other ships had. The propulsion was 1930’s technology. The rest of the ship was 1940’s technology. In the 1960’s, the ship went through a phase called FRAN in which the whole superstructure was taken away and the ship was modified for electronic warfare. Things like radar were added. The ship had 2 5-inch 38 and gun turrets. The aft turret was taken off. Torpedo tubes on the ship were torn off and replaced with anti-submarine rockets. The combination of the weight being removed aft and all the electronic gear being put in the top resulted in an unbalanced ship. This made the ship not ride very well in heavy seas. On the ship, they would have DASH, unmanned, anti-submarine helicopters. They would be sent out to destroy subs or they would come back and report nothing. They �                   ended up have a problem with them, as some of the time they would go over the horizon and have a nasty habit of not coming back. So the project failed. Instead they used the leftover space to refuel manned helicopters. Based on what happened to the ship over its lifetime, there were many odd modifications that happened to the ship. He would serve on the ship for three years. (35:30) He would focus mostly in the area around California, but did make one deployment to the Western Pacific. They left in September 1977 and came back in April of 1978. They made port visits, refuel, resupply and training missions. He would practice naval gunfire support when he was on Maui, Hawaii. A lot of it was repairing and refueling in the Philippines. One of the larger exercises that they had done was 75-80 ships in this enormous formation to practice some tactics. While he was seeing this incredible sight, an older Naval Officer told him that he would never see anything like that again. Which he hasn’t. In fact, he does not know of any naval force of that size being gathered since then. They would visit many places in the Pacific, including Australia. He found an interesting difference between the US people and the Australia. There was not a great appreciation for the US military by its citizens. So much so that when you were there, you did not wear your military uniform. Instead you had to wear civilian clothes everywhere. It was totally different in Australia. You were encouraged to wear your uniform. There was a program where families would sign up to bring a sailor home and make him dinner. Some of the guys would be on the streets, in their whites, and when they pass a bar, the citizens would buy them a drink. The officers and chiefs of his ship were invited to the New Castle City Hall, where the Mayor had an official city welcome for them. They remember and really appreciated what the US Armed Forces had done for them in the past. He and the others were fortunate to reap the benefits of that when they were there. Subic Bay is the banks where the surface ships stop. He had been there during his college cruises. Places along the bay had been come to known as “the wild west” and people did get in trouble. One guy who worked for him, a really good guy, had got really drunk one night. The next morning the man came up to him, worried what had happened the night before. A woman had come forward, saying that they had been married that night and she had the right to become a US citizen. Some of the officers had heard about this happening before and did not think that it was true. So moving as quickly as they could, they got the guy temporary orders off the ship and on a plane out of there in 45 minutes. When the native police came, there was nothing they could do. The shore patrol would be mostly responsible for the ongoing of those soldiers who were on land, but if there was real trouble the men would be brought back to the ship where things would be taken care of there. �                    The leaders of the ship had to take care and teach the junior level soldiers what exactly they could or could not do when they were on the beach. For his ship, the leader told them, “I don’t care what you do on the beach, just not on the ship,” which would lead to a lot of trouble. Thing are different nowadays, of course. Back then, if you got back to the ship hung over, but you could still do your job, you were ok. Things aren’t like that anymore. (44:40) His ship consisted of all males while he served. In fact, they saw very few women in any of the services until after he had left the ship. The ship was decommissioned in 1978, and he had become an instructor at the Surface Warfare Officers School, where he had gone to class. This was 1979, and that was when he first saw women entering the service. He would visit politically sensitive places as well. New Zealand at the time had just ended disputes with the southern alliances. As they were coming to the pier on the southern island, there was a “noise hazard” sign on their ship. One of the civilians on the pier had misread the sign and thought it said “nuclear hazard” and there was a big commotion on the pier. They had to make a Flash communication to Washington, where you spoke directly with Washington, not through the chain of command. This happened when there was anything that had to do with nuclear protests or things of the like. Eventually things did calm down, but things were tense there for a little while. They would also make a visit to Taiwan, before President Carter had changed the diplomatic relationship between the Peoples Republic and Taiwan. When they visited, it was like Australia. They were very much appreciated. A couple of his friends who would serve with him would go back a couple years later after the changes had been made, and they noticed a complete 180 in attitude. They pretty much stayed in the South Pacific for the time he was there. One of the signs of the time, about a year before he became an ensign, the chief of Naval Operations Admiral Zumwalt had made a lot of new about humanize and modernize the Navy. One of the ways he did this was changing the uniform some of the junior officers had to wear to the double breasted uniform that the senior officers had to wear. It was a complete failure. No one liked it and in his 5 years of service, he had only seen 2 people who looked good in it. The crackerjack uniform, they originally had, were easy to store and very adaptable. They were meant for ship use. The coat and tie uniforms were not. There was no place to put them, and there was also a problem with keeping them in a decent temperature. They had to deal with a lot of problems and a lot of messes. Another thing the Admiral did was to allow beards. In his 5 years of service, the same two guys who looked good in the uniforms also looked good in the beards. That was not a wise move. He did grow a beard on deployment. While they visited Tasmania, he had made the front page of the local paper showing kids the anchor system, and there he was in his beard. His superior made him shave it off a couple of weeks later, saying that he had had his 15 minutes of glory. �                      The most important thing he was troubled by was an attempt to handle drug abuse in a different way. Sailors could come forward as marijuana users and not get in trouble, and would be assign to a week’s worth of counseling ashore. This could only happen when they were ashore. Of the 40 men he had to watch over, and he only had a couple of guys who did this. He began to notice that those who came forward basically got a weeklong vacation. They got to sit in an air conditioned room, they didn’t have any duties, etc. while the men who obeyed orders still had to work. There was not a lot of fairness in that. When the Navy went to a no tolerance drug abuse police in the 80’s so that was taken care of. His last 18 months of active duty were as an instructor, in Cornado, where he had gone to school. While he was in the ROTC, he did go on some cruises. In the summer of 1972, he spent 2 months on the USS Leonard S. Mason, which was a destroyer. They spent time as an enlisted person. They went to Hawaii and up and down the west coast. After his junior year, they stayed with some aviation people in Texas for a few weeks and then stayed with some marines in North Carolina. Then after his junior year, he was back to sea again, but this time as an officer. He was on the USS Cleveland, which was a landing platform dock. He spent two months there. He would cross the Equator and become a shellback on the Cleveland, which saved him some trouble when he served on the Agerholm. Crossing the Equator had some ceremonial things to it. They had some stuff happen, which he was sworn to secrecy, but it ended in a cookout. (59:30) When he crossed the Equator with the Agerholm, only 3 of the 12 officers were shellbacks: him, his roommate, and the second in command. So when the initiations began at five in the morning, the captain would join too. He was a real good sport about it. Any participation was strictly voluntary. Since they needed people to run the ship, and only 3 of the officers were shellbacks, he ended up driving the ship. He would be on the bridge with some of the men who did not join in the celebration, despite that they were not shellbacks. You could cut the atmosphere on the bridge with a knife, between the pollywogs and the shellbacks. It’s all good fun and a shared celebration for the people on the ship. For him, those were very vivid memories, and he will always remember them. The Navy had tried to get him to stay when it came time for him to be done with the service. Retention rate was low for the armed forces. For his position that he served, there was retention of about 15%. There was a lot of subtle pressure to stay. His decision to leave didn’t occur to him until he was 18 months during his shore command. His CO at the school was not happy with his decision. This was probably because of the compiled decisions of many of the servicemen to leave. It would be his wife that would eventually make him get out of the service. She was not happy with the Navy and wanted him out. (1:07:00) �     He wasn’t feeling too good about the armed forces at that point either; it was not what he had expected. Some of the leadership that he had seen, he was not thrilled with. Of the 3 captains that he had on his ship, he would not use any of them to examples of someone who really showed Navy core values. Same with the shore as well. There were many people who felt the same way he did. He would be discharged in April 1980. Once he was out, he retained his commission in a reserve status for 18 months. During that time, he didn’t really pay attention to the Navy at all. He moved away and got a job and continued on with his life. Reserves and Post Duty (1:11:15)                    He would go back into the Navy, though in the reserves. He was employed at an insurance agency and it was not what he really wanted. One night, his wife got a call from a girlfriend of hers, saying that her husband, who happened to be a friend of his, got a job as a recruiter. He and his wife had been talking about him going back into the reserves. After a while he decided against it because it would not be worth the money. After encouragement from his wife’s friend, he would look into working in the reserves. He would eventually get in contact with the reserve station in Muskegon, and he would begin working there in November of 1981 and work there until he retired in 2005. What he did was administrative in nature. Eventually he would have command of 7 reserve units. He would manage filling positions in active duty with trained soldiers who were in these units. As a reserve he would have to go one weekend a month and two weeks a year. He would have to make sure that people did what they needed to do and even get professional qualifications themselves. While he was in the reserves, he did have to go places and did receive individual assignments. He would go to Norfolk, Rhode Island, he commanded a literage unit He had commanded a unit that supported the USS Caron. That was the only time he spent at sea while in the reserves. He spent some time on the USS Shenandoah, USS Scott and others. He would spend three years with a unit that worked internationally with Europe. They had to come up their own war gamming exercise. He was also in a logistics unit that did some expeditionary training. When he was a CO, he had to make sure that the people he went with were well cared for, while other he would spend more time focused on his own qualifications. (1:20:00) He was still in the reserves when 9/11 happened. However, things in the Navy were different than reserves elsewhere. For him personally, it did not have a lot of impact. In his first 21 years in the reserves, the only callup was for Desert Storm. After 9/11, there were a lot of groups deploying. At one point almost a third of them were mobilized for Operation Enduring Freedom, the name for the operation in Afghanistan, or Operation Noble Eagle, which was the domestic response to the attacks. �                     Since then, there has been a lot deploying and a lot coming home wounded in duty. As the Army and Marine Corps got stretched in the years, the Army was looking to the other branches to provide support for them, like jail guards. After he had retired, he had stopped by the reserves center and he met up with an old friend. She was in process of leaving to go to Iraq as a jail guard and was terrified. Another friend of his, a member of the Navy JAG Corps, in 2007, had to be in Baghdad for 8 months trying to find troops that would help support those who were already there. Another friend of his, a captain who he had served with, was assigned a casualties assistance calls officer when the planes hit the pentagon. In this he would have to deal with the families of those who had died. He was the senior CACO for 180 CACO’s, and it put so much stress on him that it cost him his marriage. (1:29:00) When he was working with the reserves he would still have a day job. He would work for a bank up in Ludington, which was acquired by Old Kent Bank, which was then taken over by Fifth Third. When he moved to Grand Rapids, he would stay with them. He would also be a part of Employers Support of Guard and Reserve, in 1996. He had not heard of it since them. When he was working, at the time, at Old Kent Bank, one of the other guys there was a Captain, who was on the reserves for another branch. He had suggested that they put the bank up for this award, as the bank helped some or their soldiers out during Desert Storm. So he found out more about it and they had won the award. In order to accept the award they needed to go to a ceremony in Battle Creek in their uniform. He thought it was going to be a weird little thing, with a couple of guys and it wouldn’t be worth their time. He was wrong. It was a huge ceremony, with 8 or 9 banks there that were all receiving awards. He had to speak because he had nominated his bank and then the award would be given and the representative of the bank would say a few words. This event resonated with him and he began to learn more about it. Eventually he would get a call from the organization and would replace a man who was retiring. It was a volunteer organization that was created by the department of defense in 1972. The mission is to create a culture where military service is valued by every civilian employer in the US. They do this in 3 ways: they recognize the outstanding support already done by the employers, they educate the employer and the employees about all of their rights under the federal law, and they resolve conflict as a mediator. There are 4500 volunteers throughout the country, 100 in MI. He continues to volunteer today at ESGR and does various tasks in order to help out. He gets to speak to a lot of employers and a lot of service members. (1:36:00) As his role as State Chair, he sees a lot beyond MI and he loves to hear all of the cool stories of all the good that has happened. They also work a lot with family support organizations and he really likes seeing what happens there too. As the number of soldiers on active duty as increased, so has the work that ESGR does. Since it is a taxpayer funded organization, it has certain criteria it must follow. They keep track of the different people that they interact with and it has increased since 9/11. �      With all the individuals leaving, the company has to deal with it and that leaves no guarantees for the soldier. Although the federal government says that they must take care of their employees there is no one there to make sure that they do. He tells a lot of people today “So I hear you support your military, what do you do exactly?” There are a lot of things for people to do to help out there military and there are many organizations that could use your help. One of them is called Yellow Ribbon, which helps soldiers transition back to military life and deal with things like PTSD. Personally at his ESGR, they are looking for a more diverse population to help bring in new ideas. The military is more than bullets and bombs, but support and helping others with their problems. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RyanP Title A name given to the resource Ryan, Paul (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ryan, Paul Description An account of the resource Paul Ryan was born in New York City and attended Notre Dame University on a naval ROTC scholarship. Upon graduating in 1975, he went on active duty for four years, serving on destroyers in the Pacific. After leaving the Navy, he joined the reserves in 1981, and did administrative work for them until he retired in 2005. Since then, he has been actively involved with the Employers Support for the Guard and Reserves, an organization dedicated to assisting men and women in the service deal with issues that they encountered when called to active duty. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-01-18 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f7fc2df550a341d3d6db8fb275039615.mp4 3ebbf5d53f408315da53f21f5bc3bdcf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2ad1d59ec00543af33f4d8d685b2a19c.pdf f9eaf97e586797fbf0b3496a3bf74f7e PDF Text Text Ryman, Donald Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: Donald Ryman Length of Interview: 1:18:00 Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman INTERVIEWER: We’re talking today with Don Ryman of Buchanan, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley Veterans History Project. Okay Don, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with: where and when you were born? Well I was born at Brady Lake, Ohio, April 1st 1928. My father at that time was going to Kent State University and he was given a life certificate as a teacher in Ohio, so they had rented this cottage at Brady Lake. Well my father had a degree in Mechanical Engineering from Carnage Tech but he liked to teach school. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Well, he changed jobs all the time. We moved 11 times until finally we were able to buy a home in East Canton, Ohio and we landed there, well, August 9th 1939. Well just a few weeks later World War II started and it wasn’t too long after that that we had Pearl Harbor and I lived through all those things. INTERVIEWER: Just kinda back up a little bit and fill some of this in. So did your father have teaching jobs all this time? Well, he… No, he didn’t, because the Depression. But he did have teaching jobs—he taught manual training and other stuff at Lewisville High School, but the Depression came along and one of the school board members said “Well I’m a carpenter, I can do manual training.” so my father lost his job, and my father during the 30s was in and out of employment. And that was a pretty rough time for us. Well, when World War II started the demand for engineers increased and so he was able to have a job. INTERVIEWER: Right. During World War II. (2:14) �Ryman, Donald INTERVIEWER: Right. Now you were kind of young at the time but do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? Oh, oh yes. (Ryman laughs) We had some friends from the First Christian Church in Canton and they came out to our house after church and they said “Oh, there’s been this attack at Dutch Harbor!” So we looked on the map and that’s in Alaska, they got it wrong! Well then later we found it was Pearl Harbor. INTERVIEWER: You know that Dutch Harbor got attacked too? Yes, and I didn’t know Pearl harbor any better than I knew Dutch Harbor to tell the truth. But then well the war started and I was thinking, while I was 13 years old, well I wasn’t that brave a guy I thought “Well maybe this will all be over” because by the time I’m old enough to go into the service. And that’s with Hiroshima, that’s what happened. INTERVIEWER: Alright, now during the war years how did the war kind of affect daily life? I mean, did you notice rationing or things like that? (Ryman laughs) We didn’t have gasoline, we couldn’t drive our car very much! Yeah well, they rationed shoes and food and everything—my mother had problems getting money, food for the table, and I’d only get maybe one new pair of shoes a year. Yeah we knew that. Well, there were these boys I knew in high school who were a little older who got in the service, and some of them died in the service. And that made an impression upon me. And I was pretty mad at the Germans because—you know people use the term ‘collaborate’. That irritates me. A collaborator is somebody who cooperates with the enemy and I never use that, and I don’t like it. There’s all other kind of synonyms are used for collaboration so that’s just one of the things I got out of the war. Well, the war kept going on and on and I was in high school and it just happened and I had skipped a grade, so my classmates were a year older. And in 1945 they turned 18 and they were going into the service. Well for one reason or another most of them joined the Navy; I did have one classmate who was involved, he was a couple years older, and they picked him up in December of 1944 and he got into some of the last combat in France and Germany. So there I was, well, I was 17 years old I was gonna turn 18 April 1st 1945, so what should I do? Well my parents they didn’t like war very well, they were pacifist, but their parents had been involved in the Civil War in the Shenandoah Valley and I guess both sides forged and took their food and things like that, they didn’t have much for war but their attitude was “Okay, when the draft war comes and gets ya, you will go.” In the meantime though I figured I’d get a year of college. (6:01) INTERVIEWER: Right. �Ryman, Donald So I started Ohio State University in June of 1945. INTERVIEWER: Okay, now how were you able to afford college at that point? Well, my father was employed. I worked and I did get a job in the summer in the factory in Canton, Union Metal, and I saved that money. My mother cleaned houses and my father worked and so we managed to scrape by although it was a near thing, but there was only $15 a month, $15 a quarter for tuition, $45 a month room and board, so I was able to scrape by. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. You had more state support for universities in those days, a little bit cheaper. Well I think maybe so. Well, then I got there and these fellows from Cleveland said “Well, you know, if you took 15 hours, 20 hours a quarter you could graduate earlier.” And you don’t wanna go to Ohio State University law school. That’s at the bottom of the lake tech. You wanna go to one of the big (sounds like “bee-sir”) law schools like Columbia or Harvard or whatever. So I set my cap to go to Harvard Law School and I did; I would take 20 hours a quarter and graduated in 10 quarters, which was from Ohio State, which was just it, you know, that was at the end the 48th, in June of ‘48 I got admitted to Harvard Law School, I had a full tuition. I did well in school, I’m Phi Betta Kappa and so I was going well and with full tuition I had to have my room and board at Harvard Law School. Well we able to keep up with it for our first year but then I just had a 69, if I had a 70 I could have kept my scholarship, but I didn’t have it and so in the last two years I think I ended up owing Harvard $2300. Which in 1951 was quite a bit of money. I was driving used cars for quite a while then to pay off that debt. Well also the Korean War started in June of 1950 and I was just getting ready to go to my last year of Harvard Law School. Well immediately I had a physical exam notice and I passed it and then I had a draft notice. Well what do you do when you get a draft notice? You take your mother down the draft board. Well fortunately they had a policy of giving you a stay of induction to the end of the academic year if you were going to be back in school before the date of induction. Well I qualified on that so I managed to get through the year but I thought they would insist on going the infantry—well they liberalized that because the Navy and the Air Force and the Marines were complaining they were getting all these college boys out of stays of induction, so I got another draft notice! And I’ll tell ya that really impresses you, getting your draft notice from the President of the United States greeting. It’s just one greeting! So I was able to enlist in the Navy, so I went to San Diego and. (9:55) INTERVIEWER: Now, when you were in college back in Ohio State did they have ROTC there? �Ryman, Donald Oh yeah. I had to take two years of ROTC. INTERVIEWER: Okay. That didn’t give me that good an impression of the army either, to tell the truth. INTERVIEWER: Well what did you actually do in the ROTC training there? Well, we were, as I recall, we were taking classes, we were reading manuals, knowing things about that. In the Summer of ‘45 while the war was still going on we were doing a lot of marching. It seems to me we didn’t do so much marching from there, but I thought the quality of teaching in the quality of rating wasn’t up to as good as Ohio State University. I hadn’t been pulled down by pain [but] by point average, which kind of irritated me because the girls didn’t have something like that pulling down their point average but I didn’t think it mattered for me getting into Harvard Law School or getting the scholarship As a matter of fact that was the first year they had the Law School Admission Test and at that point they said “Well, we won’t pay any attention to it except if you’re on that—on the edge.” The school said “Okay well we’ll look at that, maybe look at that and decide [if] we’ll admit you.” But yeah, that, probably I learned some good stuff in the ROTC but I wasn’t that impressed with it. (11:30) INTERVIEWER: Right, okay. But now you’ve chosen the Navy, and then where and when do you report now for training? Well, I had enlisted in Canton, Ohio and they sent me over to Pittsburgh and a bunch of us they put us all in planes and flew us out to San Diego to the Naval Training Center there, and that’s where I spent about 16 weeks in boot training. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Now that was, I thought “Oh gee, the Navy’s kinda mediocre.” but really they had this thing set up, they were training us as enlisted men to do what we would be doing and they were thinking we’d be on the Destroyer. All their training at that time was set up [as] what you would do if you were on a Destroyer and you were dealing with 5 inch, 38 caliber guns. So I got that. I also had a deal that I could go to a service school and learn one of the ratings. So mine was I picked, for some reason, Personnel Man. A Personnel Man was a yeoman who worked for a personal records. In those days I thought “Oh Personnel things, that’s pretty good. Working in Personnel.” I changed my mind later but I did get my rating, but then I was sent to Newport, Rhode Island, I went to Naval OCS. Well it was called Naval School Officer Candidate, now during World War II they had midshipman school but this is a whole new thing in the Korean War and I was in the 6th class that generated from that. Well they did give us an absence commission and a regular �Ryman, Donald commission and we were eligible to succeed command, we could go all the way up to Chief of Naval Operations this was a regular line commitment and we have a star on our cuff. And you know over the years I’ve been kinda proud of going through that. (13:55) INTERVIEWER: So basically this is a regular commission as opposed to a Reserve Officer commission? Basically? Yeah that’s right. Well I was in the regular Navy as a matter of fact but enlisted. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. When you originally enlisted was there an expectation that you would train as an officer? In the academy? I didn’t know. INTERVIEWER: Okay. I didn’t know. INTERVIEWER: So the boot camp really just was the standard enlisted man’s bootcamp? Yes that’s right. And I did the Personnelmen School and on board the Destroyer I would be typing up personnel records. One of the things I did learn from it though was how to type. (Ryman laughs) And that was useful, that’s been useful ever since you know I still type on Microsoft Word or whatever it is. It’s useful. (14:47) INTERVIEWER: Okay, and in the boot camp was there a lot of spit and polish stuff and emphasis on discipline? Well, to an extent. As a matter of fact the fella—the officer in charge at San Diego at that time kinda was, he was known as a Martinet but oh okay to an extent we would get inspections where we’d have to have our shoes shined and stuff like that. I managed to get through that okay but the thing was I was right out of Harvard Law School and I really got good grades on the exam. I did the best in my whole , you know we know the kind of whole outfit of many companies and I got elected honorman of Company 705! (Ryman laughs) I saw somebody’s obituary recently that they put that down that they have an honorman. Well that had some significance but the reason I got it was because I think I’d done so well on the test. INTERVIEWER: Okay. And was it hard to adjust to the life in the Navy? �Ryman, Donald Oh yeah! Well, being in boot training was like being in a concentration camp, to walk any place away from the barracks you had to get a walking chip. Oh yeah that adjustment was hard but there I was, I had signed up for it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, okay. So basically you just kind of went with it and did what they told you? Oh yes, yeah, yes. I was smart enough to know that I didn’t have any alternative. (16:35) INTERVIEWER: Now were you one of the old guys there? Or were there a lot of other college boys? Yeah I guess I was! Well there were a couple guys from Pittsburgh who maybe were 20 years old but I was 23 and it was interesting a lot of these guys were 17 years old. And I just observed how they adjusted to the Navy because when they got out at 21 they would be younger than I was at 23. It was an interesting experience being in bootcamp, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay, alright, and then the officer training then in Newport, what did you actually do in that training? Well, we had mostly academic studies. We did a little bit of—we did a lot of marching in bootcamp but we had paved roads and the Marine Corps Recruit Depot was just a little way away from us and we’d see the dust coming up from those guys marching. They were marching on dusty roads. (Ryman laughs) Yeah we did a lot of marching but, well in OCS we did some marching. I was never a big guy for marching to tell the truth, but we were taking courses: Navigation, Operation, things we needed to do as Junior Officers on the Destroyer, as an officer of the deck. Or if we were assigned below we were an engineering officer what we would do. But that’s what we had, those courses, so we could become a good officer of the deck. Well one of the things I always had against McCain was that Indianapolis and I was paying his education and he was trying to be the last guy in his class so the President would give him his diploma. Now he’s wasting my money. I was trying to be the best I could, well I thought I’d better know this stuff if I went out there some place and I’m officer of the deck and I have to make quick decisions as to what to do to navigate the ship! Now this is not too long after the Missouri ran aground and I think there was an ensign on that and he didn’t follow the rule as to buoys: Red, Right, Returning. If you’re going into port you keep the red buoys to the right, well he didn’t pay attention to that and he ran the ship aground and the Navy was terribly embarrassed about all that. Well in those days we were getting books like Mr. Roberts and The Caine Mutiny, well you know they made Junior Officers look good and not bad but they didn’t encourage us to be very spit and polish as Junior Officers and I wasn’t, I probably should have been—you know I was trying to dumb, not to be more spit and polished but I did what I had to do. I know the smart �Ryman, Donald salute and all of that and keeping my uniform nice and those things I did, but one of the things I would get in trouble for was I wouldn’t, when I went to a new post, I wouldn’t go and introduce myself to the officer in command. That’s something I got I think from Mr. Roberts or The Caine Mutiny. Well that was kind of dumb they didn’t like that when I didn’t do that but you know generally I was trying to be a good officer like I was going to make a career of it, I really was. I did make statements like “Well I don’t care what’s in my fitness report.” you know I was going how long, I was gonna be there for 3 years and that was the end of it which was pretty stupid. But you know when I got my commission I was just 24 years old and I was supposed to be able with that commission to guide people who had been in the Navy almost their whole life. Quartermasters and all these enlisted men who had made a career after it and really, but I thought I saw better than others, that I had a certain position but I didn’t know as much as all these Petty Officers aboard the ship and we would work it out together. I think the Petty Officers respected me. I had a good relationship with them. (21:44) INTERVIEWER: Alright. So when do you finish training at Newport? Well in July, around July 30th. INTERVIEWER: What year? 1952. We got our commissions, now that was an interesting thing they hadn’t figured out if they had to discharge us from the regular Navy and we could have walked, and they told us we could walk. Well, if we walked, you know I had 1 year, the draft board #110 would have picked me up again you see. So and the next day we got sworn into the Navy Reserve as ensigns and went to our next post which for me for some reason was the Eighth Naval District. Those really surprised a lot of people because they were turning out these ensigns to go on board destroyers and larger ships. INTERVIEWER: Crew. Okay but you got—so where was the 8th Naval Headquarters? The district headquarters? It was in New Orleans. And they though “Gee, that’s great you’re gonna go to New Orleans they got jazz!” Well I didn’t like jazz I liked classical music and when I got to New Orleans and I found it was this very badly managed city, and I had grown up in the north Canton, Ohio, Cleveland, they originated the city manager I was used to well-managed communities, or Boston where I had been in Harvard Law School so I was disdainful I probably didn’t think “Well, okay, just enjoy New Orleans for what it is.” but I was judgmental. And I was right, when Katrina came along it finally caught up with them and they didn’t fix that levee and they got flooded! INTERVIEWER: Okay and so that’s something you’re looking at in 1952— �Ryman, Donald Yeah that’s right! INTERVIEWER: And then, you know, 57 years later it happens in New Orleans. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay now what was your actual job in New Orleans? Well I, they first had me in another job or some statistical… well as a security officer one of the things that I had was the Commander of the Headquarters of the Naval Guard. We had the guard and I was put in charge of that, that was my experience being a policeman it was very useful. All of a sudden I found out “Oh this isn’t such a good job, having to tell people they have to follow the rules.” and ever since I’ve had a better relation, I think, with policemen on account of that. Well we would make security inspections in the East Naval District and I would go along with them through Corpus Christi or other places, I remember making an inspection into the consolidated western steel at Orange, Texas. Well they had their fences and other stuff left from World War II. Well, I was supposed to make a report as to what they should do, well I could have said “Oh, well you gotta fix up those fences there and all of those things in case the North Koreans come invading Orange, Texas.” Not very likely. Well we had adopted the Navy fortunately, common sensically adopted the idea of perimeter security. Having security where you really needed it: where you had your classified information in safes and things like that. So on my report covered that and sometimes I would go with some of the more senior officers, I remember we went over to Corpus Christi and we went over to Kingsville, Texas which was right on the edge of the King Ranch which was very interesting. Well I remembered one day, and they have there at Kingsville, they have a place where they were training pilots. Well one of the them landed on the King Ranch, or crashed on the King Ranch, so we got to go on the King Ranch and see that so we were saying “What do you have to have in the way of security at Kingsville, Texas?” Well you didn’t have perimeter security, you had to protect any registered publications you had and you had to protect classified matter, and you had to be very careful about it and it’s set too with Hillary Clinton, I was really shocked at some of that but you know, she’d never been in the military. (27:03) INTERVIEWER: That’s okay the government servers were out of date and not very useful so they were cutting corners. Well, yeah. They perhaps, I can’t imagine treating classified matter in that way but that’s just my thing. I was very very much school in handling classified material, realizing that a lot of us overclassified. Whoever had it would make him look better if he classified it secretly than to be declassified and confidential. But nevertheless when it was classified secrets you handled it �Ryman, Donald accordingly. So really no excuse for not properly handling it, but that’s another subject. Well, I apparently did well at that, well after I got out of service I didn’t have quite enough promotion points for Lieutenant–for Senior Lieutenant so I took a Correspondence course. Well I took it in Naval Security and I got a 400 perfect score. So apparently I learned something about Naval security. INTERVIEWER: So about how long did you do the naval security thing? About two years. INTERVIEWER: Okay so that pretty much was your time in New Orleans, then. That’s right, that’s right. Well, New Orleans, at the Unitarian Church at coffee hour I met Martha, my wife. Around 65 years ago and we got married, so that’s one of the great things I got from New Orleans. (28:48) INTERVIEWER: Alright, now did you, doing the security stuff, deal with kind of criminal issues or people stealing things or what was that? Nope, no, no. I was. I was irritated that I wasn’t put in the legal department and I knew those lawyers who are in the legal department, well I wasn’t and they had me as Assistant Counsel but that didn’t go over very well with the general court-martial. And they did, I was on a general court-martial for a month, so I got that kind of experience but no, I wasn’t getting any legal experience while I was there. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Well then, but the deal was if you had shore duty you could get sea duty so they ordered me to the USS Coral Sea, which at that time was the newest carrier in the fleet and one of the three largest. And I was just ordered that well, in those days they didn’t have a Naval JAG, and court martials, the junior officers handled his trial and defense counsels, but the senior who had been senior captains who would be commanding officers of a carrier like the Coral Sea said to the Bureau of Naval Personnel “You’re gonna order somebody here who is a law school graduate and he’s a member of the bar and he will be a legal officer.” Well I didn’t realize that was the situation but when I got there I was legal officer. Well I had no experience navigating your ship but I was an unrestricted line officer so I had to stand those watches. So I stood watch as the Junior Officer of the deck, that’s private experience. INTERVIEWER: Okay back up here a little bit again. Okay, you… to go back to New Orleans about just, just life down there at the time, I mean it was a segregated society. �Ryman, Donald Oh yeah, yeah… that of course bothered me a lot. But we didn’t have a Civil Rights Act, in those days I was a political liberal and the Unitarian Church was integrated in New Orleans, and the Unitarians are working in the south or working to do what they could to get rid of, well they call it South Valley segregation but it was quite an experience riding on the bus to go to work and you had to sit cause the bus was segregated. There was a, actually there was a thing you’d put in the back of the seat because we’d go through black neighborhoods and then white neighborhoods so we’ve had a lot of black and a lot of white. And so we would switch that wooden… INTERVIEWER: Partition or bar or something? Partition! INTERVIEWER: Yeah. And you know I felt bad about putting that in the face of these blacks and saying well, well in effect saying, well you have to stay back there. No, I wasn’t, it didn’t make me love segregation. And I was there when Brown v. Board of Education was decided and oh boy there was, a lot of those people didn’t like it very well. People whom I thought should know better really. I mean, Ulysses S. Grant tried to enforced the 14th and 15th amendment and it’s unfortunate the Hays election where they, well as a Republican, they backed off their position and you know you had them until Lyndon Johnson put through a civil rights for blacks. You know, you could say stuff about Lyndon Johnson but that was a tremendous thing he did and maybe his motives were to right things but so what? INTERVIEWER: Okay now the military was in the process of desegregating when you were interviewing, Truman had started that back in ‘47. Yes, that’s right. Well in the Navy they weren’t going very fast, the blacks were stewards. They had black stewards and they had a lot of Filipino stewards. In my OCS class there were some blacks, there were some black officers but as I recall that was few and far between. INTERVIEWER: Now on the Coral Sea did they have black seamen or were the seamen all white? Yes they did. INTERVIEWER: Okay. �Ryman, Donald They had black seamen, matter of fact, in my boot company. They were gradually but I’m not sure what the Navy was doing then some of the rest of them on that. Well I had two captains on the Coral Sea, in those days those captains immediately became your admirals. The second one I got to know quite well, David McDonald, but he was from the south he was from Winder, Georgia and he had the usual southern view of it. He had… he didn’t like the black stewards he had two Filipino stewards, well but that ended up with some of my experience: we were in Gibraltar around Easter of 1955 and his two stewards got charged with beating up on the merchant. When they were coming back to the ship these merchants were lined up trying to sell ‘em stuff. Somebody did beat up on one of them and work ‘em over with a broken bottle and they were held there. Well, what were we gonna do? Well, I got word back I was supposed to stay ashore and try to do what I could for ‘em. In those days, you know, I was a young guy. Really I was supposed to cope with it, spring him loose and get him back to the ship. Well I hired two solicitors who were his little brothers there in Gibraltar. Now as a matter of fact they did say, with the Navy relief thing for enlisted men was to pay my expenses there. Now that was kind of interesting. The enlisted people wanted me to stay there. Anyway I got the word out I was supposed to stay there, it wasn’t direct from Captain McDonald and thinking back I should have said “Well, what does Captain McDonald, the CEO think?” Well I didn’t. Well they started— they did their research very well and they had something that went back to World War II and still goes on: the Status of Forces Act. Well under that act the Gibraltar authorities had no jurisdiction over these stewards. They were to be returned to their unit, the unit would do any kind of discipline that was taking place. Now this came up in the Iraqi thing when Obama said “Well, I can’t leave these people here cause we can’t get a Status of Forces agreement.” Well, you know, that’s political. I doubt that that’s true. (37:14) INTERVIEWER: But you knew what a Status of Forces Agreement was. But I can see how you need that because otherwise these US forces will be there and wanna get the justice of the peace or somebody want to get some business they’ll start accusing him of crimes and things like that. That went back to World War II in England. So we did get him loose, brought them back to the ship and I was a hero. And that started a good relationship with Captain McDonald; prior to that he had me and the repair officer for lunch. When he came aboard he was having some of the department heads for lunch and he was talking to me he said “You know, Ryman, I wanted to be a lawyer but there wasn’t that money in the family, but in those days they called a lawyer Colonel and he was respected in the community.” he said “Today I don’t know the lawyers, they're not as good, you know, when you applied to be a lawyer you had to be dishonest.” I said, “Captain” I said “If I can’t make an honest living as a lawyer I’ll do something else.” Well I think that cemented our relationship when I said that. And I had, you know I had other things with him I’m just trying to think… Well I was you know I had the legal officer and he was the convening authority and he was the one who was in charge of discipline, but that work I did, you know, he had captain’s mast that was written, and these guys well in the states �Ryman, Donald they’d all go—well a lot of ‘em would go AWOL—these dumb guys they go AWOL. What they wanted to get was a bad conduct discharge and kicked. They weren’t thinking about how that would affect them getting jobs or stuff later but overseas they’re getting, always, drunk and disorderly charges. So I was working with him on that. Oh, and of course I was standing these deck watches on the bridge too. Well I remember one night one of my classmates in class 6 were there and he was Officer of the deck and I was Junior Officer of the deck and that. You know the doctors and dentists they would immediately get a commission as lieutenant junior grade, we had to sweat through OCS and we might end up not getting any commission at all and we’d be ensigns, well, and we’d have to stay on as ensigns for a year and then we’d probably move to Lieutenant Junior grade. Well those guys would come up on the bridge because that was interesting: watching me, you know, being there going up and down the Mediterranean. Well one night the officer of the deck, my friend, I’m not gonna mention his name, he said “Well, you know, let’s have a mail buoy.” and he said to the dentist, “They’re gonna drop a mail buoy in the Mediterranean and we need somebody out, we need a lookout on the end of the flight deck to see where this landed.” Well of course mail buoys are like—there wasn’t any such thing. INTERVIEWER: Snipe hunting. Skyhook’s another thing. You know, I wasn’t entirely sure I was kinda a naive, young guy so I helped officer deck we fitted him up with a .45 pistol and he went out on the end of the flight deck to look for it. Well the lookouts and other people on the bridge knew all about it and they were kind of buzzing about it, Captain was in his at sea cabin and he heard the buzzing, so he got up and got on the rigs and somebody pointed to the dentist on the end of the flight deck. Well, he wasn’t a profane man, but he said “Well I’ll be a god damned son of a bitch, get that guy back up here before he kills himself!” which we did. That was quite an incident, but you know of course he could’ve put both of us back but I was a legal officer, maybe that helped me. But that was quite an incident. But Captain McDonald was a very skilled officer, we would refuel destroyers that came up against the ship and then you have to fuel them. Well that was kind of a tricky thing, you had the hose and you could separate that hose if you didn’t navigate well. Well with Captain McDonald on the bridge, well one of my friends who was a Supply Officer talked to him about it. He said “Well, when I was in Indianapolis I got the floor for navigation.” He was very good at navigating ships. Well that was interesting. Well he showed us one morning while I was there, with the same—it just happened—I was Junior Officer of the deck with the same guy from the other time and the Admiral changed the screen. On the screen determined your location but you had to give orders to the helm and so that you would be in the right position. Well, Lieutenant Junior—the guy that was officer of deck—had gotten the props. He was trying to use something we had and the maneuvering board to figure it out and the Captain came on the bridge and it was just chaos. Ships bow to stern and they were all over the place, Destroyers, aircraft carriers, we usually had another aircraft carrier with us. Well, McDonald said, he said, “Throw away that maneuvering board! Tell me where you wanna go and I’ll get you there.” and so the �Ryman, Donald Lieutenant Junior gave him what position we had and in, it seemed to me like about a minute, he had everybody on our station. I was really impressed. Well, see we had a maneuvering board thing we learned in OCS and we’d figure it out on that, well that’d take a little time particularly for us inexperienced guys. But I was very impressed with that and he was a great guy, when I came to Park Equipment Company I had two years of practice with Smith & Schnacke in Dayton plus the time I had on the Coral Sea. Well I wanted to be getting a minute in Michigan on motion—I had three years though, so I had to count the time on the Coral Sea. Well I wrote the then Admiral, John, and I wrote down well I said “Admiral, I have this letter here. I’ve written it describing what I did on the Coral Sea and really with the law practice I was the only lawyer on there, and I was doing it for better or for worse, including the guys who’d come up with their own personal problems and that was part of my job.” So I sent it to him and he signed a letter, he said “Well, that’s accurate enough.” I signed it and sent it to the Board of Law of Examiners and they didn’t accept it. I had to take the Michigan BAR exam, I was 8 years out of law school on account of that. Well I passed but he did that for me. He was just super person, you know some of the retrained officers from World War II they weren’t that great but he was, in all respects he was very good. He didn’t put on a lot of airs, you know, “I am the 4 striper Captain vs. Lieutenant Junior” you know. So I kept in touch with him for quite awhile after that and eventually he became Chief of Naval Operations. The top guy in the Navy. (46:53) INTERVIEWER: Now I want to wind your story back a ways cause you started getting into things on the Coral Sea and one of the things we didn’t talk about was how you actually got from New Orleans to the ship, cause you told me it took about three months. Well, oh, of course. Well we drove. I had some leave so we visited with my mother in Canton, my father had just died a couple years earlier, then we went to Culver, Indiana, she was from Culver and we were there for awhile. Then I took the train to Norfolk. Well, the Coral Sea, it was in the Mediterranean so they had to give me or arrange for some way. Well they put me on the Shewauken, which was a gasoline—it was a tanker. INTERVIEWER: An oiler. Gasoline and equivalent, they had aviation gasoline on it. So I got on that, well, I worked up a good relationship with the Captain on there. He was a good guy, I think he was a teacher, he got recalled he was a Lieutenant Commander. And turned out I was the oldest of the Junior Officers aboard—he liked to play Scrabble and I did too so we’d play Scrabble at night. Well, he had a guy, John Shilling Kanavan, a guy, an Irishman from Boston and he had these guys when we got into Norfolk they’d just leave. Well, unfortunately Kanavan came back so he had to tried him for AWOL. So he asked me if I would help him do that. Well, of course I’ve been in New Orleans and unknown General Court Martial so I did that, I served the President of the Court Martial and took care of all that for him and he really did appreciate that, and I didn’t have anything to do so �Ryman, Donald that was a great thing to do. So we, yeah we cross the Atlantic, I remember Hurricane Carol was coming up the east coast at that time and the communications officer was worrying we were gonna get caught in that. Fortunately we didn’t. Well I remember one night we were crossing the Atlantic and, oh god I suppose we were going 20 knots—at 22 miles per house and this ship came up over the horizon. It was an ocean liner; it was the Independence and here it was, we watched it go by and we thought of all of those people on that ship having drinks and all that stuff and we’re on this great vessel. (Ryman laughs) And of course from Josephus Daniels in World War I there was no liquor on naval vessels. (Laughs again.) So then there it went, speeding past us, they were probably doing about 20 knots or 25 knots, 30 knots. 30 knots is probably not the top that the Coral Sea could do; 30-31 and it’s 35 miles an hour for a thousand foot vessel in the Mediterranean, that was quite a lot. So I ended up at Cannes and switched over to the Coral Sea. (50:24) INTERVIEWER: Okay and now describe the Coral Sea a little bit for people not familiar with aircraft carriers, just size or what it's like to live on it. Well it was roughly a thousand feet long, on an aircraft carrier of course on top of it is a flight deck and underneath it is the hanger deck where you have the planes, where you have the planes when usually you’re not operating. You might have some of them on the hanger that you’ve tied down and I remember the legal office was on the port side up under the flight deck. So that was okay but it was, you know we had to go up and down some ladders to get where we wanted to go and if we wanted to get to the bridge of course, you see on the starboard side was the island with the bridge at the top. The navigating bridge was at the top, underneath it was the Admiral's bridge, we carried an Admiral on the bridge. His name was Crruise, Admiral Cruise, he was Commander of Carrier Division 6 and he had his bridge lost but we were up there on the top and navigating and, you know, arranging for the dentist to go down and lookout for the mailbuoys so. And that was about 13 flights to get up there. Well I remember the sad story there was one officer, he was a Lieutenant and he was what you called a Mustang, he had enlisted and he got promoted and became an officer. He was racing up those stairs one day after I left and he had a heart attack and died. You gotta be in good physical shape to do that. And I guess it’s still true. I don’t think they have elevators up to those things; they did have an elevator for the pilots for one flight up into the ready room as I recall, so yeah well, okay. Then we would be there on the bridge and the flight deck was filled with these planes, these guys in different colored uniforms were playing pushers, I mean we’d be watching them take off and landing, very interesting. Well at night time they’d get those things on the bridge and they’d be running up the engines, those things are screaming, and with that I got 20% hearing loss (chuckles) which I’m being paid for finally, now that I’m DA. Oh! It was, you know it was really good to be an unrestricted line officer, these days the legal officers and the jag, well they’re below deck all the time. They’re kinda like the dentist, they wanna get above deck on the flight deck and on the bridge and watch what’s going on! Ah man, I suppose when they go in there Lieutenant Junior grade they’re staff �Ryman, Donald officers. Well, perhaps that’s the best way to run it but I got the chance to be a line officer and actually I’d be in a position where I was helping in navigation of the ship. If I’d been there long enough you see I would have qualified for Officer of the Deck and here you have these guys, 25 years old, in charge of this thousand feet long ship going up and down the Mediterranean. The Navy set it up that way and it worked then, I’m remembering they were having some trouble with collisions out in the Pacific and I never could understand that but it could. Well they said the Officers of the Deck that hit that weren’t properly trained; well we just had 16 weeks of OCS so it weren’t ours. INTERVIEWER: So you were talking about that incident with your captain coming in and correcting everything that was kind of a mess. (55:23) Yeah, right! INTERVIEWER: And so if that goes on a little bit longer maybe somebody hit somebody. Well yeah, right right, yeah. But John… yeah. Could’ve been bad, well everybody had turned off their engines when and they were just they weren’t moving. INTERVIEWER: Okay. But still… yeah that’s kinda tricky. Well those submarines, the destroyer commander is usually Lieutenant Commander or Commander. They prided themselves on their ability to control those ships, so did everybody down to the ensigns on the bridge, so that was fortunate but you know some other Annapolis graduate who hadn’t got the sword might have gotten into trouble in that situation. INTERVIEWER: Alright, now during the year when you’re with the Coral Sea was the whole time spent in the Mediterranean or did you come back to the states at some point? Oh no we came back to the states, we came after December. And Martha had rented a house in Oceanside and so I was out trying to 9-to-5 because they took the Coral Sea into the Naval Shipyard at Portsmouth and they had it in there, and they were working on it, so I drive to work every day in my 1947 Studebaker Commander. Oh god that was a nice car. And so we were there until March and our first daughter was born February 2nd, which was about two days after the government declared the Korean War over based on an armistice which still holds today. No, I was stateside and then we left in April—March? You know, March of ‘55 and I was slated to get out I think July and I did. I asked to go back by ship. Well the captain thought, you know, he was a pilot himself. I think he thought a little less of me that I wasn’t flying. Well… I left Martha and the baby in the US and there was a consolation flight from Norfolk to Portland, Oregon that was �Ryman, Donald lost and this one Chief Petty Officer lost his whole family on that. So I’m just figuring realized I didn’t wanna try flying on the consolation across the Atlantic. So they put me on a ship that was the Everglades that was a Destroyer tender. Well most people don’t know what that is—well they had all kinds of stuff aboard there. They come up alongside the destroyer and they fix up their motors and I know one guy who was a Destroyer tender, all he did was work on the night covers, things like that. Well I was on that and we traveled and that was interesting in one respect, we got down by Cape Cod—now this was in July of ‘55—and we had fog all around us. It blotted out the radar. That was the early radar days, one of the things of Junior Officer of the Deck is to watch that radar and see who is close to us so we wouldn’t run into them. It is important. Well it blocked out! It just got all white so they stopped the ship and put on the foghorns there. That’s the best they could do. Does that interest you? Well about a year later a pastor vessel called the Andrea Dorea going through the same place and I thought he’s gonna make it into New York regardless; well unfortunately the Stockholm was there too, I think how that crash happened. Kinda interesting. INTERVIEWER: Now when you were in the Mediterranean what ports did you stop at? Well that was the nice thing about it. Barcelona once here, Lisbon, Athens, oh… God. INTERVIEWER: Well you went to Gibraltar. Oh there’s real good duty in that respect. I had good duty with the Navy, they have to say, well Beirut and Lebanon! Beirut at that time was kind of the Paris of the mid-east, nice place. And something else I had: I was appointed in each port as a foreign claims commission. That was an officer who had the authority to to pay up to two hundred and fifty dollars in damage to somebody that sailors had damaged their property, I remember that these guys would get drunk and break up a taximeter and I remember one case these guys were skylarking around and one guy threw the other guy’s sailor cap up on awning. Well the other guy climbed up on the awning to get it and broke the awning. So we paid for a new awning, that sort of thing. Well, everybody envied that duty because I could get a hotel room like in Lisbon or other places and, you know I would have to hang around the shortage role headquarters but I did that, yeah. I did that several times in various ports. I kinda got to like Lisbon, well there were just wonderful restaurants there and you could get the local cuisine. Well I remember this guy, I think he had been in my class he was…I don’t know, he was a Bosun, he did the Bosun’s mate training but I was standing watches with him and he says “Geeze, I don’t like it here I can’t get a hamburger” and you know “I can’t get a hamburger and a malted milk” and I thought “My god you’re gonna spend the rest of your life in Pittsburgh! You have a chance to go into all of these restaurants.” Well I guess he missed out on that, I didn’t. (1:02:16) INTERVIEWER: Okay, well this tape is about up. (Screen fades to black as tape changes) �Ryman, Donald I suppose sooner or later I’ll have to get into the thing. INTERVIEWER: Alright, okay so let’s see we were kind of closing out your stories about service time on the Coral Sea, we had been talking some—I guess the last thing we had been talking about was how one of your fellow officers wasn’t interested in actually the local cuisines (Ryman agrees) in the port, so you know they didn’t quite get that. Now you were talking a little bit about Beirut. Beirut was an area that in certain periods of the 50’s had a lot of political trouble, I think ‘58 or so. But when you were there in ‘55 things were quiet? Well, yeah. Of course we didn’t get into local politics but not too much, I do remember an incident in Beirut. We came in there November 11th, 1954. Well, the Coral S… they didn’t have a slip or place where we could—they didn’t have a port we could get into with our big ship, so we had to anchor out. But the destroyers came in and right into the slips. Well, one of the destroyers, the guys got off and they went immediately to the various houses of ill-repute. Well we already had a foreign claim when I got on shore—what the story was, there was a sailor— yeah it was a sailor in one of ‘em—and they set the shore patrol. The houses of ill-repute were off limits. Well, the shore patrol guy was knocking on the front door so this sailor went running out the back door, but one of the pimps was standing there and he stepped on his leg and broke it. Well so, there was a claim for the broken leg. Well… I went out to the hospital to visit this man who had a broken leg; well, he was a Palestinian. I didn’t know much about Palestinians and Israel and everything but he claimed to be displaced by Israelis. Now, I don’t wanna get into that kind of politics, well there was this woman sitting there in this beautiful, nice red satin dress, well she was a man. So we had this thing “Well, what are you gonna do for this guy, he’s got a broken leg.” Well, they were gonna check and see if he had rickets. Maybe they could have operated and fused the leg but it turned out he had rickets and so they sent him off some place and I guess the US caused it, the US paid for it—well, to have the bone knit but he had a stiff leg. It didn’t end up very nicely. By that time I was long gone but that was one of my foreign claims, Beirut. Well I remember Lieutenant Junior Grade Jack Drabkin, he was a Harvard graduate. He had gotten a supply commission and he was limited in what he could do, he had the wardroom. He had the officer’s mess in those days but he got hold of a guy, a driver at the embassy, and we drive around in his truck and he had a limo, well he had a Chevy Suburban as a matter of fact! And we’d go around to these places where they had belly dancing in Beirut and that was quite a skilled thing, belly dancing, it was kind of interesting. You know I majored in a little history in the last thing, I was trying get in as much of the local culture as I could and so was Murray, I think he majored in history too before I went to law school. But that was an interesting thing in Beirut. And that was all peaceful, if there was some kind of problem or some kind of bad thing in the government of Lebanon at that time, we didn’t know about it. (1:07:07) �Ryman, Donald INTERVIEWER: Yeah, it was a major crisis in ‘58, but that was well after you were gone. Yeah, right, yeah yeah. That’s four years later. INTERVIEWER: Now when you think about the time that you spent on board the carrier, are there other particular incidents that stand out in your memory that you haven’t talked about yet? Lemme think… Oh I remember, the engineering officer on the Coral Sea, Commander Carlton, he was a senior shore patrol officer of the Mediterranean, a very interesting guy and I worked with him all the time as a legal officer on the biggest or one of the biggest ships. I remember him quite well. I remember one afternoon at Genoa and I was talking to him and he said “I was over here on the Italian lines, I was looking at some of their ships.” he said they ran a real interesting one, the Andrea Dora. (Ryman laughs) so that was kinda interesting. Well I remember at Athens he and I went over to, well to the port of Athens and I’m trying to remember the name— INTERVIEWER: It’s Piraeus. What? INTERVIEWER: The Piraeus? Yeah, the Piraeus! And we had breakfast well that wasn’t too good in the long run I got a greek thing from that, but he bought my lunch. And I was the foreign claims commission in Athens and we, I don’t recall that we have any there. Maybe the pimps got out of our way. INTERVIEWER: Yup. (Ryman laughs) Well, at Athens I’m trying to think… we were anchored pretty close in to Piraeus so it wasn’t quite the same situation as in Lebanon. INTERVIEWER: Well, you’ll think of things after we’re done because that’s how it works. Yeah, I know! I know. INTERVIEWER: So basically you have, so what you had done was you had gone originally to join the Coral Sea and come back to the states, stayed there, and then you’d gone back with them again and then you sailed back the second time and that was the fog off Cape Cod and on the way home. �Ryman, Donald Yeah, well then that was on the Everglades. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah, and that was sort of on the way home, so then you basically were turned back to Norfolk at that point and do you get discharged from there? Well, yeah. They spent—I spent a couple weeks doing physical exams to be sure I didn’t have any service related disability. INTERVIEWER: Right. (1:10:24) And then yeah they released me to inactive duty. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and then once you’re out, then what did you do? Well, I had to get back to Culver, Indiana where Martha was with our baby. And I went to the railroad and then to the Greyhound, and that was quite interesting. Greyhound had these buses that ran overnight and they ran from Norfolk to Chicago and they ran right through Culver, Indiana. Now the trains even in those days you had to change several times from Norfolk. The problem was getting to the train running east and west and well, you know, what’d they have? The Broadway Limited but that went through South Bend, you get the PennC trains but to get to those was kinda involved as I recall. Well so I just bought a bus ticket to Plymouth, Indiana, got off there, took off my uniform and that was the end of my service. I never put it on again. INTERVIEWER: Alright, and then how long before you got a job? Well, it didn’t take me too long. I had written to Harvard Law School about it. Well I had, what I was talking about being was they had a thing where they had recent graduates who advised the new students about things and I thought “Well maybe I’d like to do that.” Well, and I had worked for Professor McGuire and he gave me a good recommendation, and I wrote part of his case book as a matter of fact and he put in for me but I didn’t get that job. They supplied people and I hooked up with Smith & Schnacke in Dayton and that took just about a month, and then we moved to Dayton. Stayed there for two years and then we came here. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Alright and then how did you wind up leaving Dayton and coming up here? Were you looking for something better or what happened? Well… it wasn’t working out in Dayton for various reasons and so they said “Well, you probably oughta go some place else.” So one of the things I noticed was our big client was Mead Corporation and if Mead Corporation had a problem the President would go to the Senior Partner and tell him what the problem was and then he’d come to be, and he didn’t like to be cross- �Ryman, Donald examined. So I wouldn’t be quite sure of it, I didn’t think that maybe the traffic manager had the problem, a legal problem. So it would go up through the president of the company, the CEO of the company, through the Senior Partner and back down to me. I thought it made more sense if there was a lawyer working in Mead who could talk to the traffic manager. So I wrote to all kinds of Fortune 500 corporations and other people and said I was available and said I’d like to be a lawyer on their legal staff. Well one was Clark Equipment Company. Well I knew Clark, I’d worked in a factory in World War II and all these Clark forklifts were there. It was in Buchanan, Michigan. Well, gee, I thought, Buchanan, Michigan… Gee, I didn’t realize that. The truck said Battle Creek but actually this is where Clark, for all practical purposes, started. And until about 1990 it was a nerve center of Clark. So I wrote here and heard back from the General Counsel who wrote and said he’d like to meet me, and so I came and met him in Niles and he drove me over to Buchanan. That’s one of the funniest things. I just got in this town and it seemed to have magic, and going up the front street here was kinda like the garden district in New Orleans. So, you know, I’ve got the Buchanan disease and stayed here the rest of my legal career. (1:15:16) INTERVIEWER: Alright. And now to think back to the time that you spent in the Navy what do you think you took out of that or how did that affect you? Well… I think I learned leadership, although as a lawyer in park I wasn’t really leading, but on the other hand that’s, someone on the general counsel said “Legal and business decisions are inextricably co-mingled.” So I was able to understand what a businessman was trying to achieve, but one of the things I was very careful not to get involved in was business decisions, because you don’t want to. You won’t be objective about it. It’s like the old saying a man that serves as his own lawyer is a fool for a crime, so I did that. I had a great time, I had a lot of fun, I at one time had said there’s been an amusement tax and it’s taking up my whole pension. Yeah, I had a great time being—well here we have Fortune 500 corporations and later up to 154 in a Fortune 500 list at one time, Clark Equipment Company was. But I could walk to work and those I didn’t want much more. I had a 51 Chevrolet so I don’t know, but I didn’t have to tie up the car and I could walk to work and all the time I was here as a lawyer. Well we got a guy out at General Motors who didn’t like it, he wanted to be on that 10th floor or something, he could only be on the 3rd floor in Buchanan because the zoning code doesn’t allow you to have higher than 3 floors, so he took us to South Bend and actually what happened then was the takeover guys noticed this. They’d look at us, but they’d say “Oh, well they’re in Buchanan, Michigan. Little town, if we come try to take them over the people will come at us with pitch forks.” and we would have! But, so the company got taken over but that’s after I’d retired, I’d hit retirement age. It was a very interesting company. INTERVIEWER: Alright. Okay. well you’ve got a pretty good story and certainly an unusual one. �Ryman, Donald Oh yeah, well, thank you. INTERVIEWER: So I’d just like to thank you very much for sharing it with me. Oh yeah, yeah yeah, I’m happy to do it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RymanD2307V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ryman, Donald F. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-05 Title A name given to the resource Ryman, Donald (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource Donald Ryman was born on April 1, 1928 in Brady Lake, Ohio, into a very mobile family, moving eleven times before settling into East Canton in 1939. Ryman’s father pursued a degree in education in addition to his degree in mechanical engineering, and with the outbreak of the Second World War, his father was finally able to get a job as a mechanical engineer. His mother struggled to acquire food for the family and there was little fuel to use for their car due to stringent wartime rationing. After graduating high school, he attended Ohio State University in June of 1945 with the expectation that he might be drafted into the war. He briefly joined the university’s Army Reserve Officer Training Corps and Ryman graduated from Ohio State in 1948, moving on to Harvard Law School where he encountered financial difficulty and accumulated some debt with the university. In June of 1950, he received several draft notices before enlisting in the Navy. Ryman was then flown to San Francisco, California, for Navy Boot Camp and was later transferred to Newport, Rhode Island, for Navy Officer Candidate School. Ryman finished his training at Newport in July of 1952, was sworn into the Navy Reserves, and was transferred to the Eighth Naval District, headquartered in New Orleans. He was frustrated that New Orleans seemed to be so poorly managed, and by the persistent racial segregation of the South as well as lingering racism in the Navy. Ryman was then assigned to a gasoline tanker vessel out of Norfolk, Virginia, on which he participated in routine deck watches on the bridge and helped refuel destroyers. He was then transferred to the USS Coral Sea, operating primarily in the Mediterranean. After serving aboard the Coral Sea twice in the Mediterranean, Ryman was shipped home on the USS Everglades to Norfolk where he was officially discharged. He then returned to Culver, Indiana, where his wife and baby were living. He eventually moved his family to Dayton, Ohio, and later up to Buchanan, Michigan, where he acquired a job on the legal team of Clark Equipment Company. Reflecting upon his service in the Navy, Ryman held his later experiences with Clark’s legal team in high regard since he appreciated the fact that he could walk to work as well as the success of the business during his tenure. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng