809 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/85756bf916ed16e086a9a6cd3ddb4b9a.mp4 f1088d875b31eaca53eb98b83fe0475b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cd26ac332aea2637f6551727f8b8950a.pdf 373ad511f49856c12a6e502ed22c6596 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Otis “Butch” Romans Vietnam War 2 hours 7 minutes 27 seconds (00:00:36) Early Life -Born in St. Louis, Missouri in 1945 -His father had been in the Navy in World War II and fought in the Pacific Theatre -He grew up in Muskegon, Michigan -His father found work in the factories in Michigan after the war -He lived between St. Louis and Muskegon -His mother would occasionally take him and his siblings back to St. Louis -He graduated from Muskegon High School in 1964 -After high school he found a job (00:02:26) Volunteering for the Draft -He always planned on joining the military -He was inspired by war movies and World War I -He always wanted to be a paratrooper -When he was old enough he began to consider enlisting -When he was eighteen he registered for the draft -He received orders to report for an Army physical -He went to downtown Muskegon and was taken by bus to Fort Wayne in Detroit -He spent the night in Fort Wayne and did they physical all day the next day -This happened in1966 -The draft was in effect by now and Vietnam had escalated -There were some that didn’t want to get drafted and tried to avoid it -This was more prevalent during the second -He was approved for service -He ultimately decided to just volunteer for the draft -The draft was a two year commitment and enlisting was a four year commitment (00:06:52) Basic Training -He was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training -Prior to that he had a second physical at Fort Wayne in Detroit -Afterwards he was sworn into the Army -He was taken by train to Louisville, Kentucky -Greeted by drill sergeants at the train station -From Louisville he was taken to Fort Knox by bus -When he arrived at Fort Knox he started getting screamed at and given orders by drill sergeants -Part of immediately getting immersed into the regimen of Army living -On the first night he and the other recruits were shown how to make their bunks properly -They were all marched to a processing center -Picture taken, blood work done, given haircuts, and issued fatigues -Had to take the clothes that were given to you even if they weren’t the right size -After four days of processing they were loaded onto a truck and taken to the basic training �-Part of the fort and not a separate facility -After the first week they were issued rifles -The first week consisted of classroom work -Learning about how the Army is set up, protocol, and other basic information -Basic training consisted of a lot of physical training -The rifle that he was issued was the M14 -Taken to the rifle range and taught how to sight their guns -Given training on how to carry out assaults and how to fight with bayonets -He adjusted quickly to Army living -He could run well and was in shape so the physical training wasn’t difficult -He went into the Army knowing that he was going to get yelled at -He remembers one recruit that couldn’t march which led to him (Butch) getting yelled at too -It was part of the idea that they weren’t individuals; rather, they were a unit -A lot of the recruits were from the South, but some were from Michigan -Lasted eight weeks (00:16:45) Advanced Infantry Training (AIT) -A lot of the men were receiving orders to go to Fort Polk for infantry training -His orders were for Fort Dix, New Jersey -This meant that he would be going to paratrooper training after Fort Dix -The training at Fort Dix was focused on learning how to be an infantryman -The training there was easier for him because he had adjusted to being in the Army -Most of the men at Fort Dix were from the southeast (The Carolinas, Georgia, etc.) -Only two or three of the other men were going to paratrooper school -All of the AIT was focused on preparing for getting deployed to Vietnam -There were mock Vietnamese villages -Getting prepared to fight the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese -Most of the instructors had been to Vietnam -They followed the training program, but also offered their own advice -He was able to visit Philadelphia while he was in AIT -AIT was a little more relaxed than basic training -Lasted eight weeks (00:23:17) Jungle Training -At Fort Dix he also went through a training course called Jungle Training -It lasted one week -Trained on how to patrol Vietnamese villages -Learned about the guerrilla tactics used by the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese -There was a wooded area near the fort that served as the “jungle” area -Received some training on how to survive being a prisoner of war -Taught about and exposed to some interrogation techniques (00:24:25) Paratrooper Training -He went to “jump school” (paratrooper training) at Fort Benning, Georgia -It lasted three weeks -First week: ground training -Second week: tower training (jumping out of a tower on a zip line to mimic a jump) -Third week: Five qualification jumps (parachuting out of an airplane five times) -During this portion of training he had to run everywhere �-Heights didn’t bother him at the time -The jumps that they did were called “static line jumps” -The ripcord of the chute is hooked to a wire in the airplane -When you jump out the door the ripcord is pulled and the chute is deployed -He didn’t get hurt during any of his jumps -The chutes couldn’t be controlled which meant that they were at the mercy of the wind -He knew one training unit where some men were hurt during windy jumps (00:26:56) Deployment to Vietnam -From there he was sent to Fort Bragg, North Carolina to join the 82nd Airborne Division -He was only there for a month -Served with the 504th Infantry Regiment -A unit in the 1st Air Cavalry Division had openings in Vietnam -He decided to transfer to that unit -He was given ten days of leave before reporting to be deployed -He went to San Francisco and was given a physical exam and vaccinations -He was placed on a military transport with other men bound for the 1st Air Cavalry -Stopped at Wake Island to refuel -Stopped at Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines due to engine problems (00:31:06) Arrival in Vietnam -Arrived in Pleiku -Remembers the intense heat and seeing ripples off the ground -He was shown where bunkers were in the event a mortar or rocket attack happened -He was taken to a reception station in Pleiku -He was told stories about the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley -From Pleiku he was taken by Caribou military transport up to An Khe -It was too dangerous to travel on the road (00:34:28) Joining the 1st Air Cavalry Division -The concept of air assault by using helicopters was a fairly new one -During the Vietnam War the 1st Cavalry Division became the 1st Air Cavalry Division -They had access to 648 helicopters (mostly Huey helicopters) -He was sent to another reception station at An Khe -He was assigned to 1st Battalion of the 7th Cavalry Regiment of the 1st Air Cavalry Division -It had fought at the Battle of the Little Bighorn and the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley -It was Colonel Custer’s old battalion -He arrived at night in An Khe and was given a folding cot to sleep on, but no rifle -He remembers everyone having a pocket bible that they kept in their pocket over their heart -It was for moral support, but it also added a little protection -The next day he was given an M16 assault rifle -He had never shot one before getting to Vietnam -Given twenty magazines of ammunition, necessary gear, and a flak jacket -He was given a week of “Remount Training” -Learning how to rappel out of a Chinook and Huey helicopter -Given more bayonet training and more target practice on the gun range -He rappelled out of helicopters at ninety feet -Given hand to hand combat training -The last day they ran up, then down, a hill rigged with fake booby traps �-Also told that no Vietnamese civilians were safe -Even children were used by the communists to kill American soldiers -Some were more trustworthy than others though -Workers on base were safe, but they were the only ones (00:44:18) Going into the Field -He went out to the field and joined his platoon and his company -They were operating near the Ia Drang Valley -He spent the first night in the field with Headquarters Company -He was considered a “FNG” by the other men in his unit -Inexperienced and a danger to the other men -He was given the duty of carrying ammunition for the M60 heavy machine gun -He was only given a little instruction by the other men -Told to get rid of most of his gear so he could carry more ammunition -Told to tape magazines together so they could be reloaded faster -Learned to only keep eighteen rounds in the magazine as opposed to twenty -Otherwise the rifle would jam -They walked to Landing Zone X-Ray -Site of intense fighting during the Battle of the Ia Drang where 200 men were killed -Considered hallowed ground and ordered to walk in silence -Walked over the dry creek bed where there was heavy fighting -Saw the mountain where the North Vietnamese base had been -They set up camp for the night and the next day moved over toe Landing Zone Albany -Also considered hallowed ground because more men died there than at X-Ray -Got to the Ia Drang River and crossed it -They took some sniper fire during that extended patrol, but didn’t get into any firefights -The patrol lasted three weeks then they rotated back to An Khe for two days (00:53:06) Transfer to 2nd Battalion -The 1st Battalion had too many soldiers so he was transferred to B 2nd Battalion 5th Cav Reg -He was still viewed as being a “FNG” by his new unit -This assumption remained until he explained that he’d been in country for three weeks (00:55:25) In the Field with 2nd Battalion -It was 100-105oF and humid every day -Jungle fatigues would be soaked with sweat during the day -By nightfall it was 70oF and he would be freezing -Started to learn how to anticipate night ambushes and when to set up a listening post -A listening post usually had three men and a radio, watching for enemy movement -If there was a trail, they knew they would have contact that night -He would only get about two full nights of sleep each week -At the end of marching for the day they would stop and set up camp -First by establishing a perimeter and digging foxholes -Then by setting up trip flares and claymore antipersonnel mines -He remembers setting up camp one night and the lieutenant had a bad feeling about it -Decided that they needed to move and set up a new camp -Usually worked as a platoon (20-40 men), but sometimes as a company (100-200 men) (00:59:42) Working with Other Units -Sometimes they would work with Alpha and Charlie Company on larger operations �-Delta Company was usually close by supporting them with heavy weapons -When they worked with these other companies they never saw them though -In the areas they operated in there were firebases -These bases had larger artillery and could support them if necessary -Stayed about five miles from a firebase -Some nights the firebases would do what is known as “fire for effect” -Established where friendly units were -Kept enemy units out of the area for fear of getting hit by artillery (01:02:05) Living Conditions in the Field Pt. 1 -He stayed with Bravo Company (2nd Battalion/5th Cavalry Regiment) for two and a half months -Spent most of that time on extended patrols -Lived on C Rations for food -Helicopters would come in at night to give them extra food and water -This was in the event that they were cut off due to an ambush -They always made sure to set up camp near a landing zone -Sometimes they would set up camp early so they could get hot food flown into them -Some of the C Rations that they had were from 1945 (01:05:00) Enemy Contact -Had more enemy contact in 2nd of the 5th than in the 1st of the 7th -Most combat was sporadic firefights and random encounters with enemy troops -The North Vietnamese would only stay and fight if they knew that they had more soldiers -There was concern that if the enemy retreated that an enemy mortar strike was coming -Ran into a lot of enemy bunker complexes in the area that they operated in -Rocket propelled grenades were a major threat -Did not participate in any major actions -Remembers the sounds of the firefights being very chaotic -The firing of heavy weapons and small arms and the screaming of orders and wounded -When he was in 1st Battalion his 1st Lieutenant told him to stay calm and focused -If you were able to do those two things you could pick targets and do your job -Listening posts were always relatively quiet, but because of that your mind played tricks on you (01:10:00) Interacting with Civilians -He remembers one night they set up camp near a village -At night a trip flare was set off, as a result they detonated their claymores -When the movement continued they opened fire in the direction of the trip flare -When morning came it was discovered that the “enemy” had been a wayward buffalo -Army officials came in and paid the villagers for the dead water buffalo -They would walk through villages on their patrols -Children would come up to them asking for food -Some of the more hardened soldiers would just shove them away -He would always stop and give them something from his rations though -In retrospect he feels bad for the villagers because they were placed in a difficult position -They were forced to help the Viet Cong -If they helped the Viet Cong they would be killed or arrested by U.S. forces -If they refused to help the Viet Cong though, then the Viet Cong killed them -Learned that some of the Viet Cong didn’t exactly want communism, they were just nationalists -They were sick of a foreign power running Vietnam �-They just wanted self-government, even if it was communism (01:14:16) Prostitution and Drug Use -Prostitution and drugs were a problem in the urban areas -Remembers on the road from the base to the city of An Khe there was a collection of brothels -These brothels were actually overseen by the Army and, in a way, encouraged -The prostitutes were examined by Army doctors on a weekly basis -The Army set the prices for the services offered -It kept soldiers safe and in a controlled environment -In the field prostitution was almost nonexistent -There was drug use in the field, but he didn’t see it -Remembers that some of the villagers would smoke marijuana (01:17:40) Encounter with a Gay Man -When he was still at Fort Dix some girls in a nearby town wanted to throw him a party -He had kitchen patrol duty and missed the last train for the night to the town -At the train station he struck up conversation with a man there -The man invited him to stay the night at his house -On the way there the man told him that he was gay -He didn’t know what “gay” was and thought he was a comedian -The man finally cleared up the confusion, but was respectful of Butch -In the morning he even made sure that Butch woke up and caught the train (01:22:25) Living Conditions in the Field Pt. 2 -Every day was basically the same with Bravo Company -Lived each day in the mud, in the heat, in the rain and sleep deprived -Sometimes you wanted to get into a firefight just so you could lie down -He became close with people, but at the same time you didn’t get to know much about them -Example: Didn’t learn people’s names, just their nicknames and state of origin (01:24:25) Operation Pershing and Getting Wounded -His unit was participating in Operation Pershing in a place called Bong Son -The North Vietnamese were trying to cut off northern South Vietnam from U.S. troops -Seventy six helicopters were flown up to Bong Son on the coast of the South China Sea -After they got established they started to work their way across Highway One -For three weeks they didn’t make contact with enemy soldiers -They got to a clearing and were supposed to cross to the opposite side and set up a camp there -They were ordered to go straight across the open plain -He was walking behind the point man when a machine gun opened fire on them -The point man was hit and he (Butch) dove behind a small knoll -The machine gun started firing on his position and he was hit in the leg -It felt like being hit in the leg with a sledgehammer -He thought that he was going to die -He was more concerned about the survival of the point man though -Decided that he’d rather die for his country than in a car accident or to a disease -Gunships flew in and started providing covering fire for Bravo Company -He was loaded onto a gunship and was evacuated out of the field -He was conscious through the whole thing -He thought that he would be healed in twenty four hours and could go back to the field -Not the case though because he had a shattered tibia and could never fight again �(01:34:57) Recovery -He always grew up under the impression that gunshot wounds healed quickly -He was sent to a hospital and went into surgery -Given a spinal shot to numb him from the waist down -He could still feel the incision being made, so they put him to sleep -The next day he had to lift a small weight with his legs before he was evacuated to Japan -Most likely to see if his wounded leg was stable enough to be moved -He was loaded onto a large military transport to be evacuated to Japan -Remembers that it was filled with cots and there was an operating room in the plane -They stopped in the Philippines and then flew on to Camp Zama, Japan -In Japan he had his second surgery and was given the option to have the bone rebuilt -The other option was to just have a metal rod inserted -He decided to have his tibia rebuilt -After the surgery a cast was placed on his leg, but it was so tight that his leg swelled up -Remembers that it was incredibly painful -At the hospital in Japan there was a sign that said “Welcome War Heroes” -Remembers being treated well and given a beer -Felt guilt though because while he was comfortable his friends were still out fighting -He stayed in Japan for a month -He was loaded onto another plane and flown to Ireland Army Community Hospital in Fort Knox -When he was in Japan he was able to call home and say that he was wounded, but okay -He had what was called a “Million Dollar Wound” -Would almost fully recover without consequence, but wouldn’t go back to fight -He fell into a deep depression because of the guilt he was feeling -The Red Cross finally urged him to just write home for the sake of his family -When he got to the hospital in Fort Knox he was given a hamburger and a beer -The guilt was still there though (01:46:15) End of Service -He wound up spending four (or five) months in the hospital in Fort Knox -During that time he was given “convalescence leave” -Way for him to free up the bed that he was in -His parents and one of his sisters came down and visited him one weekend -Remembers asking them to buy him a bag of potato chips -During his leave he was greeted by relatives at the airport -Guilty because he knew his friends wouldn’t get that kind of welcoming -After his cast was taken off he was told that he could be medically discharged -Decided instead to complete his commitment -Went before a board of doctors to prove that the surgery had worked -A reenlistment officer approached him and urged him not to reenlist -He finally relented and agreed not to reenlist -He finished his duty at Fort A.P. Hill, Virginia -His duty was to drive men out to a place for ambush training and instruct them a little bit -Later he would drive back and pick them up after training for the day was done -Because of his wound he didn’t have to pull guard duty -He felt bad because when he arrived because command gave him a recruit’s bed -The recruit was kicked out of the barracks and had to sleep in a tent �-At the end of his two year commitment he went to Fort Lee, Virginia to get discharged -A friend from Muskegon drove down and picked him up (01:53:41) Coming Home & Life after the War -On the trip home he remembers stopping in Washington D.C. to see the Detroit Tigers play -He was told to get out of uniform, keep his service a secret, and not to talk about Vietnam -Confused him because he wanted to be proud of his service -Remembers being at a bar with some friends -Some people at a nearby table heard he had been in Vietnam and became confrontational -He knew one man in Vietnam that would volunteer for dangerous jobs -His rationale was that he would rather die in Vietnam than come back to harassment -He did wind up dying in Vietnam -Appreciates the fact that now at least people don’t blame the soldiers for war -And that soldiers are properly welcomed home -During the war he had sent most of his money home to save, so he took the summer off -He wound up getting a job in Muskegon in office supply (most likely in 1969) -Stayed with it for thirty eight years (02:01:40) Reflections on Service -He wouldn’t want to do it again, but if he had to he would -After 9/11 he called up a local recruiter to ask if there was anything he could to help -Believes that the political correctness and ignorance of politicians lost America the war -Remembers that if there were enemy soldiers in Cambodia they couldn’t shoot them -Even if the enemy soldiers were shooting at them -He feels that our strategies and the Army’s inefficiency is why North Vietnam took over -Believes that the United States is worth fighting, and if necessary dying for -Feels that sometimes we take our rights and our government for granted -Believes that people should get all of their information before protesting something -Believes that the draft was a good thing � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RomansO1718V Title A name given to the resource Romans, Otis (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-12-18 Description An account of the resource Butch Romans is a Vietnam War veteran who was born in St. Louis, Missouri in 1945. He grew up in Muskegon, Michigan and in 1966 he volunteered for the draft. He received basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, advanced infantry training at Fort Dix, New Jersey, and paratrooper training at Fort Benning, Georgia. He was deployed to Vietnam with the 1st Air Cavalry Division where he first served with the 1st Battalion of the 7th Cavalry Regiment in the Ia Drang Valley and later with Bravo Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 5th Cavalry Regiment in the area around An Khe. During Operation Pershing in Bong Son he was wounded and was medically evacuated. After recovering he completed his service at Fort A.P. Hill, Virginia and was ultimately discharged from the Army at Fort Lee, Virginia in 1969. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Romans, Otis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cefbedaec8c20f4a1634c00d44aab4fa.pdf 8d236e146bb661f3492d87eb64aabbc9 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carmelo Romero Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/23/2012 Biography and Description Carmelo Romero grew up in Lakeview and today lives in Logan Square. His family also lived in the Lincoln Park neighborhood and knew of the Young Lords. But it was not until the Young Lords set up their neighborhood storefront office that Mr. Romero took notice of them. He holds a Master Degree and appreciates the contributions to civil and human rights of Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcom X, and loves to study African history, especially the Moors who took over Spain for 800 years and influenced Latino nations in many ways. Mr. Romero explains how the Moors even contributed to jibaro music in their sounds and song chants. Maria Romero, his sister, remains a full-fledged member of the Young Lords in her heart. In the 1970s she ran the office at Wilton and Grace Streets. Mr. Romero would often stop by and, as the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign took hold, he volunteered to help. But he was more involved with school then. Today, Mr. Romero is a promising writer and has published several short stories. He also works for a housing development organization that is providing affordable housing in Logan Square. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Carmelo, if you can give me -- and we’re rolling now. There’s no trick questions or nothing. Just relax. It’s not a (inaudible). But if you can give me your full name and your date of birth and where you were born. CARMELO ROMERO: Okay. Full name, Carmelo Romero. I was born in Río Piedras, Puerto Rico, and I was born March 5, 1954. JJ: Okay, Río Piedras. And your parents, who were they? CR: Well, Ana Maria Santiago Coto and Cayetamo Romero. JJ: Cayetamo Romero. Okay, what about your brothers and sisters? CR: Brothers, George, Julie -- I think her full name is Julietta -- and Yolanda [00:01:00] and Maria, Cruz Maria. JJ: Okay. And what type of work did your parents do? CR: Well, my mom basically took care of us and nannied children, you know? And my father worked at Northwestern Hospital in the maintenance department, and then he also had his own business. He was a trained masseuse. JJ: He was a trained masseuse? CR: Yeah, and he also through reading and everything like that trained himself in Eastern arts of healing. So he had often two or three botánicas. JJ: Okay. Oh, botánicas, huh? CR: Right. He also was, like many people are just natural herbalists. My sister Maria is like that. And that’s what he was, so [00:02:00] he knew plants by the feel. He knew what could heal and what could hurt and all that. So he was able to put 1 �things together like that and treat people, help people. Basically, you know what’s incredible about it is that I could put a store like that over on Damen and North Avenue, and man, I’m making money because it’s like everybody that comes in there, they have the money to spend (laughs) on these types of selfcures. JJ: And they’re into that, I mean. CR: Oh, yeah, that’s become -- JJ: -- part of the culture. CR: Yeah. Yeah, and that’s something that, again, reaches back to -- JJ: Actually, my mother’s into that. I mean, she didn’t have a botánica, but she’s into spiritualism. CR: Yeah, and so many people -- JJ: And (inaudible) a little bit. She says she [00:03:00] doesn’t, but she (inaudible). CR: Well, some of it is natural. JJ: But he had businesses. He had a couple businesses. CR: Yeah. And his whole thing was, you know, he was very politically aware and everything like that. JJ: What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? CR: Well, he was a very proud -- JJ: I mean, was he Republican, Democrat? CR: Oh, no, definitely Democrat. He’s as far left of a Democrat as you could make. JJ: Oh, he was far-left? 2 �CR: Yeah. You know, that was his whole reasoning and everything like that. The weird thing about it is that he would make a great occupier. JJ: Okay, you mean the occupy movement? CR: Yeah, that would be his -- JJ: Well, did he talk to you about that? CR: He talked about it. He wouldn’t [00:04:00] talk to us about it, but he would just -like, guys would come into the store and he’d discuss things with them and I had big ears. I would hear all this stuff, and Maria too. Even as young kids, we realized there’s just something out there that deals with this politics stuff that controls things, you know? He was very much aware of all of that. He was very much aware of how the game is played and all that. JJ: The game’s played, what do you mean? CR: Well, you know, a politician comes to you and he says, “You’re a store owner, all right? I want you to do this, I want you to do that. Can you put this --” “What are you going to do for me?” You know, and the politician would say [00:05:00] this and that. But at that time, all these store owners would also say, “Well, you know, I’ve got this friend here and I’ve got this friend there, and I’ve got a cousin here, and they all need help too.” Which I think is missing in people today, that it’s what’s the largest amount -- and I don’t blame people for this -- what’s the largest amount you can offer me? And there’s no mention of the other people, you know, no mention of the cousin, the familia there, and all that. It’s just, “What can you do for me?” And then it goes on from there. That’s one thing that’s missing from us, that we don’t think like that anymore, you know? It’s like 3 �[00:06:00] at that time, people were still coming over, all right, and we knew people that were still coming over. JJ: Were still coming over from Puerto Rico? CR: Yeah. Right now, nobody knows anybody that’s coming over. They just know people that go back and forth. Everybody’s just entrenched here. There’s another difference. It’s like I said, everybody’s just entrenched here, but they’re not a part of the culture, you know? I spent a few months in New York, and God, I love that city. Everything, every ethnic group in New York is entrenched in New York. It’s like you will never see [00:07:00] a Polish guy drive by and say, “Oh, yeah, Mami,” all right? But you would see that in New York because Puerto Rican culture is a deep part of New York. All these fascinating things in New York -- it was just like part of the thing, you know? It’s like salsa dancing was (inaudible) yeah, all right, we do that at the bar. What’s the big deal, you know? But then here, that just wasn’t the case. It was like we’re just so separate from all of that. Then as I studied further, I came to the realization that’s all Chicago, all right? Yeah, I dated an Italian girl who lived on Taylor Street, and you would swear -- JJ: She lived on Taylor or you lived on Taylor? CR: She lived on Taylor. I lived [00:08:00] around, you know, Wilton and Grace, there around Sheffield, I think it was, or Fremont, one of those two streets. And it was like that area, which I used to call Little Italy, that’s where it was, you know? Then I had friends who lived in Bridgeport, and that’s where that was. It’s like nobody in this city -- and I couldn’t understand it because it’s hell getting around 4 �in New York. But here, it was so easy back then. You could get anywhere you wanted to all the way from where the Baháʼí Temple is, from Wilmette all the way down to Blue Island, and damn close to Gary in this city. It doesn’t take more than 45 minutes. [00:09:00] I used to do that, get on that train and do that, and though my feelings were deeply Pan-African, I still love -JJ: What is that? What is Pan-African? CR: That so many people of color in North America who are here now, particularly people in the islands and here, have root ties to Africa because of the slavery. But then later on, I learned we also have deep root ties to the Mediterranean, you know? That was the coolest thing when I went. I was working for this photo agency like around 1989 and they sent me to Europe, and particularly the Mediterranean. I was doing fashion photography there and I was going from -- I lived a quarter of the year in Barcelona, [00:10:00] a quarter of the year in SaintAntoine in France, and then I spent time in Turkey and Morocco, and damn, the Mediterranean is like -- and then I come back here and I’m like, we’re so much closer to each other. Why can’t we have that here, you know? As I say, it’s not always gonna be harmonious, of course. You have conflict within families. Just go to a Puerto Rican or an Italian wedding. They all end the same, all right? Puerto Rican and Italian weddings, the girls outside pulling their hairs out and guys just drinking beer, watching them. JJ: Fights, you mean? CR: Hmm? JJ: You mean like fights? 5 �CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know what it is that weddings bring out in all of us, but [00:11:00] that’s like a connection. I would say to people, “Well, yeah, that’s that connection. That’s because the historical blood line connection from the island Puerto Rico to the Mediterranean,” you know? JJ: So you’re saying there’s some historic line there? CR: Oh, yeah, it’s a historic genetic line, especially from Puerto Rico to Spain, France, and Morocco, all right? There’s folk music from Morocco that you would swear, if you heard it, jibaros in Puerto Rico would be singing. But that’s the connection because, see, the Spanish and the Portuguese were unlike the Northern Europeans. They brought everybody over. JJ: I know that Spain, [00:12:00] Arab countries who ruled Spain for 800 years. So you’re saying in Morocco, they do jibaro music? CR: Yeah. It’s got the same -- well, they have a different type of stringed instrument, but it’s like the same way. A little bongos, someone playing the stringed instrument, and this chanting back and forth, and with a constant “Lo-le-lo-li.” JJ: Lo-le-lo-li? CR: Right. Then later on, you hear that in Spanish flamenco. What’s called French Apache dance, you can hear that in there too. JJ: Now, you said you got into the Pan-Africanism. What got you into that? CR: I used to read a lot and read weird stuff, right? And I found this guy [00:13:00] named Frantz Fanon. I read his two books. JJ: Actually, the Young Lords met Frantz Fanon. 6 �CR: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, that’s where I got -- there was a poet who worked with the Young Lords, Felipe Luciano. JJ: Oh, that’s right, yeah. CR: I met him at this party somewhere and he mentioned Frantz Fanon. JJ: In New York? He’s from New York. CR: Right. But he was here in Chicago. JJ: Okay, at that time. CR: It was somewhere in Hyde Park, something like that. It’s probably on the University of Chicago campus. So he mentioned that, so I dug them out and read them. Well, it was a weird concept to me because like everybody else at that time, I just thought about this country, the United States. [00:14:00] Yeah, I know they brought slaves over. But then his thought process was that there’s an African diaspora out there, you know? And the thing about it is that later on, like practically everything in the world, it became corrupted for political purposes. But the idea behind it, that you don’t have to go out of your way to be African or anything like that, but just enjoy that it’s there. Then later on when I got a chance to go to Spain and the Mediterranean, I realized that it’s everywhere, you know, because it sprung from the Moors culture, mixing in [00:15:00] with the Roman culture. JJ: That’s what I was thinking of, the Moors. They were in Spain for 800 years. Now, the Moors, I don’t understand, are they Morocco? CR: Yeah, they came out of Morocco. Morocco was their center of operations. They came out of Morocco and their whole thing was to spread Islam, you know, 7 �throughout Eastern Europe. Well, they got as far as the British Isles and really dominated for a long time. JJ: I really like jibaro music. I mean, my family played that and all that. So you mentioned that and I (inaudible). So we might’ve gotten it from the Moors, then. CR: Oh, but, see, everything over here, we got from somewhere else because even [00:16:00] what they call the Native Americans, well, there was once a land bridge on the Siberian Strait and they came, basically immigrated from that part of Siberia to here. So everything here came from the Old World, and then, you know, there was also the theory of supercontinent where all the continents at one time were one. Of course, that stuff splashes all over the place. JJ: Now, that, I had heard of that in some college class that I took. So where did you go to school? CR: I started out at Malcolm X College. JJ: In grammar school. CR: Oh, grammar school, wow. The ones I can remember were King School when I was a little kid, McLaren School later. JJ: On the North Side by Lakeview? CR: No, these were on the West Side. JJ: [00:17:00] West Side where? CR: In the area which is pretty much now the medical center, the University of Illinois Medical Center. JJ: Oh, okay. Around Van Buren? CR: Yeah, we lived on Van Buren. 8 �JJ: We used to call that La Madison. CR: Right. JJ: Do you remember that? CR: Yeah, I remember that. I remember them calling it -- now, Sundays right now, I have a booth over at Maxwell Street Market. You know, we sell stuff. But I remember back then, Maxwell Street being [La Halsted?]. You would go to Terry’s and go through there. I remember -- this is the greatest memory, because I needed a suit for my eighth grade graduation -- my mom taking me to this place called Morry’s. JJ: Right, yeah, I went there. CR: Yeah, and she’s just the [bickering?] [00:18:00] and went back and forth between her and the guy. He’s like, “Lady, I’ve gotta have lunch. I haven’t had lunch and (inaudible).” And finally I’m getting the suit. The smell of the fabric, you know? It was so cool. Then you go out and then from there, we went straight over to the Polish places, you know, and got a Polish -- the weird thing about that is, like I said, I’m working on Maxwell Street now, and the morning job that I have, we service basically those restaurants, Maxwell Street restaurants and stuff like that. JJ: So Maxwell Street, can you describe what it was, I mean, at that time? CR: Well, back at that time, it was like this whole market of all kinds of stuff. Whatever you [00:19:00] wanted, you could find at Maxwell Street. In addition to that, you had musicians, you had artists, you had entertainment. Sometimes some guy would get caught trying to steal from somebody and all the vendors in 9 �that area would just beat the crap out of him. They don’t call the police or anything like that. It’s just get him out. Get out. Don’t come back. JJ: It was like an open market? CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, open. You had guys selling fruits. JJ: You can barter. CR: That was the whole thing. It’s like people bartering back and forth. What sticks in my mind about that, again, the center relationship, it’s like when I was in Morocco, I saw markets like that. That was the whole thing is bartering. This guy was explaining it to me, “Well, no price here is set.” JJ: [00:20:00] You negotiate, whatever. CR: Right, so you have to know how to negotiate, barter, but you have to be entertaining. You can’t be rude or the seller will just cut you off. If you’re rude, cuts you off. JJ: But a lot of Puerto Rican families used to go there? CR: Puerto Rican, Mexican, Black. Most vendors were Jewish. JJ: You’re talking about Pan-Africanism. Did you feel Puerto Rican or African? Or maybe I’m saying that in a wrong -- CR: No, no, no, you’re saying it pretty much the right way. I felt that nationalities didn’t count. Back during that time, I didn’t call myself Puerto Rican. I didn’t call myself American. What counted was what you, the individual, were made of. I looked at myself as someone who is deeply African with [00:21:00] sprinkles of Spain and France in there because whenever I would see that -- I just knew that was in there, you know? But I didn’t know exactly how it was in there until I went 10 �there. So back then, anyone would tell you, who knew me back then, I’d just never call myself Puerto Rican. I also never called myself American, despite the fact that when I was in high school, I was in ROTC. But most guys, that’s so you don’t have to swim naked in gym. That’s the reason why guys get into ROTC. Well, back in those days. JJ: What high school was that? CR: Waller. Robert A. Waller. Now it’s Lincoln -- JJ: You went to Waller High School? [I went there?]. CR: Whom? JJ: So how did you go to Waller High School? You were living up north. CR: We moved out here. When we moved -- JJ: You [00:22:00] lived on Van Buren. CR: Right. Then from Van Buren, we moved to (inaudible). Back then? To me, it was cool. JJ: Okay, what do you mean? CR: I just mean I was in contact with Black kids, white kids, or what every other Puerto Rican called [los hilbilos?]. JJ: [Los hilbilos?]? CR: Yeah, there were a lot of kids, a lot of families in that area -- JJ: Hillbillies? Los hilbilos, los hilbilos. CR: Yeah, right. But Southern -- JJ: (inaudible). CR: Yeah, a lot of Southern immigrants there -- 11 �JJ: At Van Buren (inaudible). CR: Yeah, and there were Puerto Ricans, there were Mexicans, there were Blacks. So my feeling was, you know, this is kind of cool. Everybody seemed to get along, so as I grew older, [00:23:00] I was always fascinated by the news and stuff like that on television. JJ: So now you’ve moved from Van Buren. You guys move into the Lincoln Park neighborhood. CR: Not yet. We moved, but still on the West Side. The weirdest place, all right? I can’t even tell you where it was. All I can remember of it is, like, overgrowth. That’s all I could ever see was overgrowth. It was dank and dark. JJ: What do you mean, overgrowth? Grass? CR: Grass, plants. An incredible amount of grasshoppers and crickets, just like they were everywhere. You could smell that tobacco. That was our backyard. I could tell that my mother absolutely hated it, you know, and we were there, like, two months, and she never unpacked [00:24:00] and we were gone from there. Then we ended up in the Lakeview area. JJ: In Lincoln Park. CR: Right, right, Lincoln Park. JJ: Because it had Waller and all that. CR: Right. We were on Halsted and Orchard. JJ: Okay, they run the same, so you mean -- 12 �CR: No, no, Halsted -- actually, Armitage, because I would go -- yeah, Armitage was the street where Waller was on, Orchard and Armitage. Right. So we were on Fremont and Armitage, and between Armitage and -- you know, that area now. JJ: And Wisconsin, yeah. CR: Yeah. No, and North Avenue. JJ: And North Avenue, okay. But then (inaudible). CR: Dickens -- no, not Dickens, but another English author street. Willow. Willow and then North Avenue, okay. And that area back [00:25:00] then was -- JJ: So you moved a couple places in there? CR: No, no, no, we were always on Fremont. JJ: Fremont between Willow and North Avenue? CR: Right. JJ: I got you. CR: No, between Willow and Armitage. JJ: Okay, all right. And what year was that? Because I lived on Fremont. CR: Around ’69. Yeah, around ’69 because it was the year that the Cubs were doing good. JJ: Okay. In ’69, we had the church, the Young Lords church there. You didn’t notice that? CR: No, so that must’ve been -- JJ: Sixty-eight. It must’ve been ’68. CR: Sixty-eight or ’67, yeah. So, you know, we moved around there. You know what? It was around the time of Martin Luther King’s assassination. 13 �JJ: That was ’68. CR: Right, so that’s when it was, because that’s what I remember most about that is that [00:26:00] when we moved there, there was still that mixture that I enjoyed. But then King was assassinated and it just all blew up, you know? It all went to hell. Nobody wanted to associate. And Waller, the weird thing about Waller is that it encompassed -- the Cabrini-Green, but also the Gold Coast where you had bastards that’re just too cheap to send kids to Parker or Latin. They said, “Oh, well, let them go to Waller. It’s free.” So there were a bunch of rich kids there who detested their parents, rich white kids who detested their parents and associated with us. My particular group there was, like, we all wanted [00:27:00] to be artists in one way or another. I wanted to be a writer and a trumpet player, and there was another. There was two other guys that did get to -- man, they actually did get their dreams because they worked with Spike Lee. JJ: [Who were these?]. CR: Yeah, Rob and Gus. JJ: Rob and Gus. Friends of yours? CR: Yeah. And they got to work -- well, hell, they’re in Amsterdam now, you know, just sitting back. JJ: You don’t remember their last names or anything? CR: Rob was Smith and Gus was Stone. JJ: Okay. And these are close friends of yours? CR: Well, they were. JJ: Yeah, but they made it. 14 �CR: Well, they made it, yeah. They made it the way we all said -- because we all wanted to be basically -- you know what’s weird? Because that was, what, 1968. But if you were a person who loved classical music [00:28:00] and jazz, for some reason, there was a gas link to the late ’50s. Real cool jazz, real jazz, inventive jazz was, like, it. You actually heard it on the radio. And it’s all artists, whether you were painters, actors, whatever, gravitated towards that because the improvisation and everything like that. That, Pablo Picasso paintings, you know, Chagall, and all that. You gravitate towards that because of the improvisation. This is creative. This is what I wanna do is create, you know? And before King’s assassination. You really had [00:29:00] that. Then after the assassination, it’s like everybody splintered off, even the Blacks. JJ: There were riots at Waller. I remember those. CR: You’ll have to tell me that. I was standing there watching. I was like, well, I’ve gotta help me. But then that’s what bugged me the most, was there was this one Puerto Rican girl who was, like, the sweetest girl in the world and everybody got along with her. Then there was this Black kid who’s the same way, and on the day of the riots -- I remember them all -- they were good friends, and they’re walking up. He’s walking her home and a bunch of Black kids attack them. [00:30:00] And what I remember about that is -- JJ: Why did they attack them? CR: Because everybody was running around rioting. It was after King had been assassinated. I remember our teacher standing us by the window. Are you parked all right out there? 15 �JJ: Yeah, I’m parked. CR: Okay. They’re saying that the school was closed and all that, and I remember going down and standing around and looking around. I remember a bunch of Black kids pushing a bunch of Latin Kings, chasing down these white kids, and beating the crap out of them. I was wondering, what does this mean? I understand people are mad that this man was dead. I had already started studying politics [00:31:00] back then, so I pretty much knew about that. But, you know, why is this necessary? And it just blew my mind. It sort of led me to wanna find out, all right, these people, why don’t we act like that? I’ve gotta find out about myself, all right? And in trying to find out myself -- JJ: (inaudible) Martin Luther King’s death, you wanted to find out about yourself. CR: Yeah, you know, because it seemed important back then to know where you stand. I didn’t understand. What the hell are you talking about? Is this a cowboy movie? You know, because I used to watch a lot of the old -- well, I still do. All my DVDs are old movies. JJ: Oh, cowboy movies? CR: All old movies. Anything made before [00:32:00] the ’50s was just outstanding. Anything made during the ’50s is really cool, you know, because it’s so camp and dumb. Then you had the ’60s where nothing really happened. Then later on in the ’70s, you had the slasher films appearing, and that’s really cool because there are artistic films where the director and writers are actually trying to say something and there’s just films that go straight to DVD. Trying to figure out which is which is pretty cool. 16 �JJ: Now, you were in Waller. How many years did you go there? CR: Well, I went there five years, all right? I failed one year, but I did it on purpose because there was a girl there [00:33:00] that I was going with that wouldn’t graduate until after I did. So I figured, well, you know -- this is the way my mind works -- I figured, well, when I was in grade school, I went from fifth to seventh grade, so I owe them a year. What the hell? Actually hell is not the word. So I said, I love this girl. I wanna be around her and everything. So, yeah, I’ll just blow a year of high school. JJ: So you went from what year to what year? CR: Now, see, that’s all confused. About ’69 to ’72. JJ: Oh, ’69 to ’72, you went? CR: Yeah, about somewhere around there. JJ: Okay, ’69 to ’72. So you didn’t become familiar with the Young Lords then. CR: Actually, well, yeah, I had heard about everything because I was a student [00:34:00] of politics. I was studying personally. At Waller, this was the thing at Waller. I would present that to my teachers and I had a couple of teachers -- for some reason, the history teachers there were just very, very conservative. “This is garbage.” Then I would present it to my English teachers, the literature teachers, the music teachers, and they said, “Wow, this is cool.” Not exactly that, but you know. I would say, “Okay, I don’t know what’s going on here, but I don’t care.” (laughs) So I hung around for that last year, and then didn’t turn out so good because her father ended up -- well, her mother died, [00:35:00] and then her father turned her into his wife. She ended up committing suicide. 17 �JJ: (inaudible). CR: Yeah. So it was like, wow. I mean, I didn’t think about losing the year. I just thought about, this is nuts. This shouldn’t be happening. This is something I should be writing, not something that should -- JJ: Was this a Puerto Rican girl or no? CR: No, she was Black. JJ: She was Black, okay. CR: Yeah, they lived in Cabrini-Green, and her father was like this storefront minister, you know. I didn’t know the weirdness that was going on there. But, see, that’s the way it is. In a way, that’s why I can’t stand these reality shows, you know? Because all the weirdness is there, [00:36:00] all right? That makes it harder for writers because what the hell? How can we go beyond this? We can’t astonish people anymore. Everything is just out there. But back in those days, all these secrets that were running around -- as a matter of fact, that’s part of a novel that I wrote about a private detective working around that period and the things he -well, you know, that’s basically what a lot of private detective fiction is. You start here and then it gets dirtier and dirtier and dirtier and wealthier and wealthier and wealthier. JJ: Now, you said you’ve had some things published already, right? CR: Yeah, short stories, poems in weird, defunct [00:37:00] magazines. I tend to follow the line of pulp writers, although I consider them the greatest writers ever. JJ: Consider them what? CR: Excuse me? 18 �JJ: The greatest writer what? CR: Ever. I mean, that period of fiction that started with Dickens and then Conan Doyle. And around that same period, even though it didn’t deal with crime, you had Dostoevsky, the Russian writers. There’s just fiction that came out of that that’s here forever because the feelings are there forever. Then as you got into the ’30s, pulp writers were writing these detective stories. Dashiell Hammett. See, that was my thing. [00:38:00] I always wanted to be a combination of Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler and Ernest Hemingway. Their writing, you know, it brought you into these worlds. I think that’s very difficult to do now because those worlds are for you to see on cable and even on regular television now. JJ: So what was Waller like, though, I mean, during the time you were there? CR: See, that was weird because, again, before the riots, it seemed like everybody, despite whether you liked each other or not, you got along, all right? Then after the riots, everybody was just mean except for, like, kids who had their little groups and cliques, which we were considered [00:39:00] the uncool, the dorks. But nobody messed with us because we learned [harmony?]. JJ: Uncool, the dorks, because you didn’t belong to a group? CR: Because we weren’t hating each other. It’s like all of these two or three little groups, you had the Puerto Rican kid. With our group, I was the Puerto Rican. Then there were three Black guys. Then there was a Japanese kid and there was a Puerto Rican girl, then I always dated someone Black. We were all interested in art and jazz, so we would end up in places we weren’t supposed to 19 �be while all the other kids [00:40:00] were at sock hops and things like that, you know? Then there was other kids who were in the chess club and things. JJ: Sock hops? You mean -- CR: Dances, stuff like that. JJ: So a lot of dances going on in the neighborhood? CR: Oh, yeah, when I was in ROTC, we ushered for this group that became real, real popular called -- and now I forgot their name. But I remember that they were real, real popular, and we ushered for them at a show. They had all kinds of stuff going on around there. JJ: What about the neighborhood at that time, ’69, ’70? What type of population? CR: Again, it was everything depending on -- every block seemed to change. You would have a block that seemed to be mostly Puerto Rican. Then you would come across a block that was mostly Mexican. [00:41:00] Then there would be really right across the street, the building across the street would have a bunch of white folks in it. Then you would have a business, and whoever the kid was, the business -- there was this -- I think it’s still there on Armitage and Sheffield -there was this cleaners. There was this Japanese kid whose family owned the cleaner. He was the coolest kid in the world. He hung out and everything like that, you know. That’s what you had from block to block to block. Then you would get to North Avenue and then the projects would start, and it was weird because the projects, the white buildings that were on Halsted and North Avenue -- or, no, Halsted and Division [00:42:00] were mostly Puerto Rican. Then you had some whites -- 20 �JJ: You’re talking about the Cabrini-Green. CR: Right. JJ: The white projects there. CR: Right. Then you had some whites there too and it was predominantly -- JJ: Did you know people from there? CR: Oh, yeah, my best friends were from there. My girlfriend was there. JJ: In the white projects? CR: No, no, no, no, at the red projects on Cleveland where they used to -- the beginning of Good Times? JJ: Right. CR: Yeah, right. They would show those, and that’s where most of my friends were. Like I said, we really wanted to be bohemians, you know? I mean, kids would look at us because we’d come to school with black turtlenecks and black berets, and the girls would be wearing the black leotards and black leather skirts with flat [00:43:00] shoes. The kids then would look at us the way they look at the goth kids, you know. It was the same reaction. But there was no violent anything until after the riots. Then after the riots, for a couple of years, it was like nobody wanted to like each other. We hated that because we wanted to like everybody. It was like wherever we went, if we went back home, there were gangs around. They would, you know, they says, “Nah, you’ve gotta represent something. It’s either us or them.” So all of us, especially in Cabrini-Green, because there were like three gangs around there, recruiting -- what they used to call recruiting, you know? And it was weird. [00:44:00] I sort of thought about this last year when I 21 �was watching a film on King, that it’s so weird that so many things just ended after he was assassinated. They haven’t come back yet. I mean, this whole thing that’s going on now, the current election, that’s all about what was going on back then. It’s all hatred. They’re just people in this country, can’t stand to have a Black president, want people of Hispanic descent -- despite the fact we’ve been here longer than them, if you count the fact that Spain was here 600 years ago -they want us out and want to destroy whatever women have gained. I don’t understand [00:45:00] that. It drives me nuts because it’s the same crap I used to hear back then. How could we have not evolved in anything but sports? Back then, I loved soccer and I would never admit I was in the United States because we had a crappy soccer team. Now we’ve got one of the best teams in the world. How come everything else hasn’t evolved like that? Why do we have people running around this country, wanting to turn it into a Christian Iran, you know? And nothing against -- I love Persian people. My girlfriend is Persian. But I’m talking about the theocracy and the government that just takes the life out of people. Why do people in this country wanna do that to this country? I don’t understand it. It drives me nuts. [00:46:00] And more than that, it’s the same crap that was happening then. Why haven’t we advanced? See? This is the potential for a wonderful, beautiful country, you know? Europeans wanna copy it in the Euro zone. They’ll never do it because you’ll never get the Greeks and Italians to agree on anything. I’ve been there, I know. But here, we’re just right here right next to each other. It’s like we could sit down and watch football, but we can’t communicate over our kid’s school. Doesn’t make any sense to me. 22 �JJ: Did you go to college? CR: Yeah, I went to Malcolm X College, and then University of Illinois in [00:47:00] Chicago, which is now Circle Campus. JJ: So Malcolm X College, you went to the first two years? CR: Right. JJ: Then you transferred to the University of Illinois Circle Campus? CR: Right. JJ: And you graduated? CR: Well, not technically. I haven’t paid my bills. JJ: You haven’t paid your bills? CR: Yeah, so I don’t have a degree. But eventually I’ll take care of that. JJ: Only when you pay your bills? CR: Well, no, it’s like, I mean, if somebody clicks in on it, you also get that tag that there’s a problem with it or not accredited. It’s like you’ve got the degree but it hasn’t been accredited. That’s the problem that a lot of college -- well, not all college. JJ: Is that you or is that all the students? CR: Naw, that’s been around forever. JJ: So you pay your bill or you don’t get your -- CR: You’ve got your degree, but if someone called us up, they’d say, “Wow, it’s not accredited. [00:48:00] It was this problem. It was that.” I don’t think that happens anymore because now -- JJ: But you have your diploma, right? 23 �CR: Yeah. JJ: So you can prove that you graduated. CR: Yeah, but, you know, nowadays with online and everything like that, everybody double checks everything. JJ: Okay, and when they double check, they say it’s not accredited? CR: Right. JJ: Okay, so it works. CR: Right, because I still haven’t paid that old bill. But it doesn’t really matter, you know, because the degrees -- see, I made the mistake of getting the degrees in things that eventually just were all right, like in culture. My BA was in what was called communications. That was journalism and all that. It was basically journalism. But [00:49:00] now, a degree in journalism -- JJ: So you have a BA in journalism. CR: Right. JJ: Okay. CR: Then later on, it was in cultural education. JJ: Oh, you have two degrees. CR: Yeah, a BA and a masters, and my masters was in cultural education. Then it just got -- you know, who cares about that? We all know about culture. Even then, though, I don’t know why I wanted degrees in that. Oh, I know why, because they all got me involved with the jazz programs at the school. That’s what I was after. Like I said, my whole thing was to either become a jazz musician or one of those three writers because my mind was just like all in the 24 �’30s, ’40s, ’50s film noir. They call it film noir, [00:50:00] the private detective, the black and white, the fedoras, and all that. Even though it’s contemporary, that’s what most of my writing goes back to. They called it the hardboiled school of writing. And I was fascinated by that. But, see, what I also wanted to do -- and I was able to do this -- I wrote this story and it was published -- damn. I don’t remember where it was published. I believe it was Playboy or whatever. And if you remember, during that time, there was a lot of gang fighting, and there was particularly a big rivalry between the Latin Eagles and the Harrison Gents, all right? So I wrote a story in the ’30s style of writing where there was [00:51:00] the Harrison Gents did something to -- it was very West Side Story. They did something. He raped one of the sisters of one of the Eagles, and then the Eagles just rained down violence and vengeance on them all. My purpose of the story was to show how stupid all of this was, all right? For once in my lifetime, I became a folk hero in that neighborhood because somebody got a hold of this story and they looked at it from the point that, man, we killed off so-and-so. JJ: Wait, I think a family was killed. CR: Yeah, that was back then. JJ: Because I was incarcerated when one of the Harrison Gents -- and then the Eagles were my cousins. So I knew both sides. It was bad because he told me it was his family. They got burnt. [00:52:00] They burned that down. You wrote about it. You wrote about it. CR: Right. But, see -- JJ: Small worlds. 25 �CR: The weird thing about it, again, is, well, you know -- I can’t remember the magazine it was published in, but my whole perception was these folks can’t read. It’ll never end up with them. And somehow, someone showed it to them, and I became a folk hero, you know? They loved the story. I was afraid I was gonna get my ass kicked, but they loved the story and everything. Then I felt cool because, see, that’s what a writer wants to do. One way or the other -- who was it? The writer of one of those gothic novels. Jane Eyre. Whoever wrote Jane Eyre said that you [00:53:00] know what a writer wants to do is for you -maybe she didn’t say this -- but anyway, for the reader to embrace them or give them a good boot in the [beer?]. Either way, you want a reaction. That’s when I felt, wow, I had done that. JJ: Let me ask you, because your writing, you also lived on Wilton and Grace. CR: Right. JJ: Right. Was it right after you graduated that you moved up there? CR: It was just before graduation. JJ: That you moved the family? CR: Yeah, that the family moved around there. JJ: (inaudible) by Sheffield near Grace. CR: Right. JJ: So a lot of families [followed Sheffield up?] from Halsted. CR: Yeah, we went west. You know, go west. That’s what [00:54:00] ended up happening to us. JJ: Was there a reason why you moved? 26 �CR: Yeah, because, you know, rent. That’s always the reason why us or anyone else moved was rent. JJ: What do you mean, the rent? CR: The rent got too high, so you moved to an area where the rent wasn’t as high. JJ: Okay. You mean the neighborhood was changing? The rent was getting high? CR: Yeah, I guess so. JJ: You guess so. But you know that the rent was high. CR: Yeah. Well, I knew when we got ready to move, it was because the rent was too high, you know? JJ: You raise that rent, we’re moving. CR: Right, that was it. JJ: [From here to you?] (inaudible). CR: Right. That’s why we moved where we moved. JJ: So you moved by Wrigley Field, by that neighborhood, the Lakeview neighborhood, from Lincoln Park to Lakeview. CR: No, that is the Lakeview was called the Lakeview. JJ: [00:55:00] It goes up to -- CR: See, I always thought of it as New Town. JJ: New Town is -- CR: The gay part of the North Side. JJ: Yeah, it’s connected to Lakeview. CR: Yeah, because I used to live on Wellington. I had an apartment on Wellington and Broadway. 27 �JJ: Oh, Wellington and Broadway is New Town. CR: Yeah, right. JJ: You didn’t move in with your parents? CR: No, that was after I was out of college. First I was married, and we were married about nine years. Then after we broke up, I moved back to that area, and I had a place around there. JJ: In New Town near Broadway and Clark, in those areas? CR: Yeah, around there. JJ: Then [00:56:00] Lakeview is north of Diversey. CR: Okay. And I guess west of Clark Street. JJ: Yeah. CR: Yeah. Okay, I get that now. Now, see, at that time, there was no Wrigleyville, though. JJ: Right. They didn’t call it Wrigleyville? CR: Yeah. Well, you know that area that’s around the ballpark is basically Wrigleyville. JJ: So you lived right by the [ball park?]. CR: Mm-hmm. JJ: You moved, what, around 1972 or something? CR: Yeah, ’72, because my last year. It was my last year in high school. JJ: So by ’72, Lincoln Park was (inaudible). CR: Oh, no. Yeah, by ’72, Lincoln Park was gone. JJ: It was gone. There were no more Puerto Rican families, poor families. 28 �CR: No. [00:57:00] There are two families living on Orchard, between Armitage. You know, there’s this little hot dog stand right across the street from [one of them?]. JJ: Right now? CR: Right. And right there on Armitage, between Armitage and the next street over -which it’s Willow or whatever it is -- there are two Puerto Rican families who own the buildings who still live there. JJ: Recently you’ve seen? CR: They’re there. I don’t know them personally, but I just know that they’re Puerto Rican. JJ: I mean, how do you know they’re there? CR: Because I see them. JJ: When you go there? CR: I run seven miles in the morning, you know. That’s my workout. Well, yoga first, and then I run seven miles. [00:58:00] Once a week, I run down Armitage, and the grandmothers -- JJ: Is there a reason why you picked Armitage? CR: Habit. Yeah, you know, it’s just a habit, just going over the bridge and then going down towards Armitage, under that underpass where that big factory is. You know, it’s just something about it that’s just -- it’s like an odyssey. I also think, like, for me it’s personal. It’s the only familiar thing that I know. So I do it once a week. JJ: Okay, all the way from [here?], pretty far west. 29 �CR: Yeah, but if you’ve been running all your life, if you’ve gotta run all your life, that doesn’t mean anything. JJ: [00:59:00] Okay. CR: Yeah, you can do it in an hour. JJ: Okay. CR: So it’s like nothing. Well, maybe in the winter. JJ: It might take me three days. CR: Maybe in the winter, a little longer. JJ: Yeah, for me, it might take me three days (inaudible). (laughter) CR: Well, you know, some people aren’t made to. JJ: Okay, so now you’re on Wilton and Grace, and this is ’72. CR: Yeah, around that time. JJ: And what type of neighborhood is it now? CR: See, here’s where the problem comes with me. I didn’t spend a lot of time in the neighborhood. I was off trying to (inaudible). I was going to college and also our main hangout was jazz clubs on Clark Street and thereabout, the Happy Medium and all that. They don’t exist anymore. The only one [01:00:00] left I think is the Jazz Showcase, and he moves from one place to another. You know, but there was the Sardine Club and all of that, and for some reason, I looked old enough for them not to bother me to come in. I was a photographer. I was doing photo [arts?] and all that. So it was like I was so involved in everything, and I was involved in soccer. I love soccer. I just wasn’t around the neighborhood that 30 �much. The most time I spent around the neighborhood, it was like I got involved with the art group [El Taller?]. JJ: Oh, [El Taller?]. With (inaudible). CR: Yeah, (inaudible). We would have meetings a couple of times. But then even -- JJ: Did you draw? CR: No, no, no, no, I was a photographer, photographer and a poet. JJ: Okay, that’s right. CR: [01:01:00] We would have meetings. That was cool. But then I would go home and then I wouldn’t spend that much time. The most time I spent in that neighborhood was when my sister got me involved with your campaign. JJ: The alderman campaign? CR: Right. But you know what? It was kind of pleasant because you did have -again, what I like, people of all kinds all over the place. It started to change after we left. JJ: In what way? CR: Well, now it’s just strictly a yuppie area. JJ: Okay. So all the families moved out? CR: Yeah, there’s basically no families. JJ: But for a little period, what? CR: Yeah, there were families. There were people all over. The coolest thing that I used to love to do is go take pictures of people [01:02:00] in the summer in the swimming pool because that was at Arnold Park, right? They had the swimming 31 �pool there, and everyone from the neighborhood would be there. I took some really great pictures. JJ: Of Arnold Park? CR: Yeah, and the people, and you could see all the colors. I only shot in black and white back then, which I still prefer, you know. But you could still see all the shades, all the colors, all the differences in people’s physique. I remember showing some pictures to some friends of mine who were like, “Aw, she’s Egyptian.” I said, “No, she’s not.” They would all look at this. “Wow, look at this kid here. He’s got no skin tone, but he’s got curly hair, nappy hair.” That was the coolest thing about that area. [01:03:00] Then you know the other thing, there was a lot of weed around back in that area, and there were also musicians around. I used to live west of there. A couple of the guys from Chicago used to hang out. There was a recording studio somewhere on Willow, there around. JJ: At Willow, you mean back in Lincoln Park, right? CR: You know where that DePaul Campus is now, okay, and the seminary? Well, just a little north -- north or south -- just a little south of there, there were like these old turn of the century houses, the wooden houses, and all of them were inhabited by recording artists. Like all these guys, most of them were white, but they didn’t care who came up to their place to mess around with this and that. [01:04:00] There was that community around there now. I don’t know if it exists. I haven’t hung around DePaul in years. But that’s the way that area used to be. You know, now everybody tells me it’s all retail. I know the Goodman Theatre 32 �has a theater there, and I used to go to a Borders over on North Avenue and Halsted. I don’t think it’s there anymore. JJ: What do you remember of the campaign? Anything? CR: Yeah. I remember there was, like, a lot of hard work. I don’t know about anybody else. I didn’t care about winning or losing, just the fact that there was a Puerto Rican out there doing this. That’s the only thing that mattered to me. That was cool. Oh, we might win, we might lose. What the hell? [01:05:00] Just a Puerto Rican out there trying to do this, and that meant a lot to me because, you know, I was a Puerto Rican out there trying to write, trying to play trumpet. So just to see -- because it just seems like with us, man, we just don’t wanna try sometimes. It’s just, uh, I dunno. We say, no, you’ve just gotta try, and just trying, it leads to other things. We do have some cool guys -- well, you know, I don’t think much of politicians, but we do have some guys out there doing stuff. JJ: So that wasn’t like a traditional campaign anyway, though, was it? CR: No. No. There were all these young people. You know, [01:06:00] traditionally a couple of older guys would round guys up, tell them, “All right, you’re voting for David. Get in there.” This was like young people, and young people putting out the word and everything. Our parents, our neighbors looking at us like we were crazy, you know, but there was always this feeling in me that there was a little bit of pride in them for what we were doing. JJ: The adults, you mean? CR: Yeah, because, you know, they’d say, “No, don’t do that. [Soy comunista?].” And all that. 33 �JJ: So they were using it. The machine would spread rumors too, so they were saying [es un comunista?]. CR: Well, yeah, but everybody said that. But, see, [01:07:00] again, all that -- JJ: How was our office? How did that look? Do you remember seeing the office? CR: Yeah, you had, like, you know, the person at the desk and then a couple of classrooms or something. JJ: No, I mean outside. How was it painted? CR: I don’t remember the painting. JJ: You don’t remember the purple? There was a purple. CR: All right, now I do. Now I do. JJ: A weird color. CR: The weird thing about that is that later on when that rock singer Prince became popular, and that purple -- I said, “The hell? There’s this guy -- like, is his father a Young Lord or something?” That was all I could ever think about Prince, other than the fact I saw his first concert ever. Well, I think it was his first concert. [01:08:00] It was at I believe Northern Illinois University, football stadium. It was the Rolling Stones tour and he was opening up for them, right? So his band started up. They did something. Wow, these guys are like Devo. Then he comes out and he’s got this long trenchcoat. He’s dancing around. That sounds cool. Then he takes the trenchcoat off and he’s wearing a g-string and we’re like -- (laughter) My girlfriend at this time, [Iona?] -- this white girl Iona -- she said, “Get that faggot off the stage.” And it might be on YouTube with this can of beer hitting the pianist from Prince’s band. That was my girlfriend throwing that beer, 34 �you know. And people were going nuts. “Get him off,” and everything like that. After about 20 minutes, the Stones [01:09:00] came out and everybody rocked it and everything. But now as an older, more civilized, mature person, I’m thinking, okay, we ran Prince off to bring Mick on, who’s been having affairs with his [basic?]. Again, well, I mean, at that time, it was insanity fueled by reefer, Johnny Walker, and -- what were we snorting? Coke, I guess it was. No, it wasn’t. Hash. We all wanted to be Jim Morrison back then. But, see, then that’s another thing that I think the music was so much better back then, all right? I’m glad to see Hispanic artists from Mexico, Ecuador, South America becoming mainstream because that means money for them. But damn, [01:10:00] they’re losing the music. I liked it better when there was a separation between art and what’s popular. But I feel good for them because they’re making money. JJ: So what do you think about -- you were in Lincoln Park, and you also were in Wilton and Grace. Both these communities had Puerto Ricans in it and other minorities. CR: Right, right. JJ: But they left. Did they leave or were they pushed out? CR: Everybody left. JJ: Okay. They just wanna leave? CR: No, again, the rent was too high. And so everybody got moved west, and I mean everybody. That was a big immigrant area, even [01:11:00] immigrants from the South. There were a lot of people there from Kentucky, New Orleans, well, Louisiana. You know, everybody got moved west. 35 �JJ: They [get moved?]. CR: Oh, no, no, it was got moved. I’m convinced there’s no way in the world this could’ve happened accidentally, that there was a plan to just move people out and take advantage -- JJ: What convinced us? CR: Because it doesn’t make any other sense otherwise, and because I’ve gained -- I love golf, you know, and I go to trade shows where I find deals and I sell deals to people. What I found is that these types of things in cities, businesses like a Walmart [01:12:00] or something like that, they target an area. Then they get political, and through the politician, they get zones changed or whatever, and rent becomes a little higher. Then people, friends of the investors, brothers and sisters and all that, they go in there and buy. That’s how Wrigley Field became Wrigleyville. Before it was all Puerto Ricans, Greeks, poor people, and a lot of bohemian artists who were also poor people. JJ: Wrigleyville by the Cubs, right? CR: Right. That’s like one guy said to another guy -- JJ: This was Puerto Ricans and poor people. CR: No, I’m talking about primarily restaurant and bar guys, the restaurant industry. JJ: No, no, but I’m saying before that. CR: Oh, yeah, before that. They said, [01:13:00] “All right, the Cubs are there. You got that ballpark there. It draws. All right, let’s clean it up. Let’s clean up the area.” JJ: Let’s clean it up? 36 �CR: Yeah, let’s clean it. Let’s clean up -- JJ: So cleaning it up means getting rid of -- CR: Right, because you can buy the buildings -- JJ: Am I putting words in your mouth? CR: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You buy the buildings cheap, you get rid of the people that are there, you renovate ’em, and you sell them high. That’s how Wrigleyville became Wrigleyville because that’s what they did in that whole area. You know, bought the buildings cheap, they got rid of the people. I don’t know if there was a westward move then. People just scattered. Some people went to the South Side. Some people came back here to the West Side. [01:14:00] Then other people -- wow, I know of Puerto Ricans who went back to the island and are doing very well, you know. But people just disappeared. You know what? You’ve got me interested now. In some way or another, in one of my runs, I’m gonna stop and talk to those two women, you know, find out how they were able to hold on, because it’s fascinating to me. I once ran by there on Thanksgiving and their whole families on either side were there with the traditional foods and everything. I bring them up because that area now, you know what the rent is? The ownership tax, just owning property in that area right now, is incredible because of the tax that you have to pay, because that to me shows [01:15:00] a certain amount of success and survival. Well, that’s what it is, success and survival. JJ: What do you mean? 37 �CR: Everybody else got beaten out. They rode everything through to the point that now when that area is at its most valuable, they’re still there, you know? They weren’t beaten out. And that’s something that -- JJ: Who wasn’t beaten out? CR: Those two Puerto Rican families. JJ: Okay, those Puerto Rican families on Orchard. CR: Yeah, because as you go down, you no longer have Cabrini-Green there anymore, so it’s like, wow, if you wanna get poetic, those buildings were destroyed. But these two families still thrive, you know, because when I went by there last year, I could see someone coming in with a baby. I was like, wow, that’s awfully cool. [01:16:00] So one of these days, I’m gonna stop off and say, “Man, I’d like to write about you people.” You know what I mean. JJ: It’s getting late. Any final thoughts? CR: Well, the only final thoughts I have is that, you know, the ugliest thing in me is this whole election. I want it over and done with. I respect the president. I think he and his family have gone through this with the greatest grace, and so have we. I think ethnic people, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Black, we’ve gone through this with just the greatest restraint and calm because [01:17:00] I’m sure most of us -- well, I don’t know. I won’t say most. I feel that his four years have been an assault on me, all right? JJ: What do you mean? He assaulted you, you mean? CR: No, not him. JJ: But his four years? 38 �CR: His four years have been an assault on him. JJ: Everybody has assaulted him. CR: Right. All right, in particular, Tea Party, all right? I just got into a thing with someone earlier today. It’s like, stop with all the crap. That’s what I say to Tea Party. Well, maybe that’s what I should say. Tea Party people, stop with all the crap, all right? Because none of this is about the Constitution or anything like that. When you’re young, running around young about give us our country [01:18:00] back and all this -- you’ve heard of the gorilla in the living room, right? The gorilla in the room, all right? Well, there are three right here that these people just can’t stand. Number one, they can’t stand a Black president. Number two, they can’t stand hearing what the Tribune published not too long ago, that we Hispanics are gonna become the number one ethnic group in this country. It’s driving them insane. Last but not least, they wanna destroy all the rights that individual women have accumulated. And all that thing about anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, it’s all about those three things. I don’t wanna hear it anymore. You know, when people say that Romney’s an idiot because -- and I’m like, he’s a politician. Politicians are not idiots. [01:19:00] They just know that when they’re talking to idiots, they have to talk like an idiot, you know? That’s why that guy said that incredibly stupid, anti-biological stuff last week about rape. Well, I’m not quitting -- yeah, I’m not quitting the race. Why should he? He’s five points ahead even after having said that stuff. What does that tell you? He’s talking to the stupid, you know? And we intelligent people have to realize that there are a lot of stupid out there, and we’re never gonna educate them. So we 39 �just have to just go out there and occupy. Occupy the voting booth. I know who I’m gonna vote for. You vote for who you want to, but do it because you really feel that’s [01:20:00] the right person. JJ: What fascinates you about the Occupy movement? CR: That there’s no leader. It’s like something Mozart wrote, you know? There’s a movement. It moves to something else. There’s a crescendo. There’s a long -but there’s no leadership in it. Someone hears about it and they go there. We’re occupying this building. The cops may come out and kick our asses. Yeah, but I like what you’re saying. I’m gonna occupy. There’s no leader to it. Now, the Tea Party claims the same thing, but that’s crap, all right? They do have a leader. It’s Ronald Reagan. That’s their whole philosophy, and by the way, [01:21:00] the original political Tea Party was founded like in 1962, dedicated to make sure that John F. Kennedy did not get voted in. JJ: In 1962? CR: Yeah. They’re not even original. There was a Tea Party in 1962. It was in Dallas, Texas, right? And they didn’t want John F. Kennedy president, and that was their whole thing. What are you people talking -- you copied from that. There’s nothing original about this. And it’s totally organized, you know. And that’s different from the Occupy, which isn’t organized. It’s like someone will beep you on your phone and they’re saying, “We’re occupying here, we’re occupying there for this, for that. Are you in?” If you’re in, you go there. [01:22:00] You take time off from work or whatever. That’s what I love about the Occupy movement, that it’s of the people. Now, the problem with it is that 40 �because it is of the people, and the people have made their statements, it can’t be co-opted because -- no, man, I’ve gotta get to work. (laughs) You know? JJ: I appreciate it. END OF VIDEO FILE 41 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b60d40e121ffe3ba96035fd98d4e96c8.mp4 a91132c3410f57b6d1ba73c98a7a8cbb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carmelo Romero vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Romero_Carmelo Title A name given to the resource Carmelo Romero interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Romero, Carmelo Description An account of the resource Carmelo Romero grew up in Lakeview and today lives in the Logan Square neighborhood of Chicago. His family lived in Lincoln Park and knew of the Young Lords. Mr. Romero volunteered to help with the Jiménez campaign for Alderman. Maria Romero, his sister, remains a full-fledged member of the Young Lords; in the 1970s she ran the office at Wilton and Grace Streets. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d181bff49d65c6fe7f5c1b8765b5b28.pdf 4e8a50195754655b1ad1aef4c76799e4 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: María Romero Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/2/2012 Biography and Description María Romero first joined the Young Lords on Wilton and Grace Streets. She was recruited by then Angie Lind-Rizzo (later Angie Adorno) and the other Young Lord women members. It was 1973 and the Young Lords were emerging from two long years of being completely underground, or inoperative publicly as a human rights organization. There were no longer remnants of the Young Lords Movement left in the Lincoln Park neighborhood that gave birth to them in 1968. The Lincoln Park neighborhood had been cleaned out of Puerto Ricans and the poor, in just a few years, by city hall and the Lincoln Park Neighborhood Association. A directive was given by the leadership for the Young Lords members to move and to establish themselves as a base of operations in the Lakeview Neighborhood, at Wilton and Grace Streets. Many Young Lords moved there with their families. Prior to that, a group of about 25 Young Lords had moved to a rural, rented farm near Tomah, Wisconsin. The farm camp was called a “Training School,” and their sole purpose for their camp was to train new Young Lord’s leaders who would step in and lead the Young Lords. Repression had hit extremely hard within the Lincoln Park Movement, splitting it in several directions. This was aided by pending trials of several Young Lords leaders and the still unsolved murders of United Methodist Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia, of the Young Lords People’s Church. Rainbow Coalition leader of the Black Panther Party, Fred Hampton, and Mark Clark were also assassinated in a raid organized by the States Attorney. The Lincoln Park �Movement had seized to exist. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, who was then in hiding from the police after being sentenced to one year in Cook County Jail and who had 17 more felony indictments still pending, called for the organizing of a training school in a secluded farm near Tomah, Wisconsin. After members received their training in the farm camp for one and a half years, it was decided that Mr. Jiménez would voluntarily turn himself in, begin serving the year and start to fight the remaining cases which included bond jumping and many trumped up charges of mob actions for demonstrations. The Young Lords would raise his bond, hire attorneys, and then switch their organizing in Lakeview and Uptown where many of the Puerto Ricans of Lincoln Park had moved. They had also moved to Wicker Park and Humboldt Park but the Young Lords wanted to concentrate their forces. If this move was not done, the movement started in Lincoln Park would completely collapse. After serving the year, Mr. Jiménez announced his Aldermanic Campaign for the 46th Ward, as an Independent Democrat. He would use the election not as an electoral revolution but, “as an organizing vehicle for change.” Among other things the campaign would focus on Mayor Daley’s forced displacement of the Puerto Rican Community from the near lakefront and near downtown areas of the city. It not only boldly opposed the banks, the developers, the neighborhood associations but implicated Mayor Richard J. Daley in urban renewal plans that clearly were racist, being utilized to cleanse these areas of lower income minorities. Because of this, María Romero volunteered to serve as Young Lords Office Coordinator. It was Ms. Romero’s job to pass out assignments and to provide support and referrals for services for residents of that Lakeview area of Wilton and Grace. She herself had lived in Lincoln Park but had grown up in Lakeview. There most of the Puerto Ricans knew her family, as her father was a businessman, who for years had owned several Latino botanicas, or stores that sell religious potions and candles of saints, and provide consultation services. Ms. Romero was instrumental in getting a large amount of persons registered to vote. The Jiménez Aldermanic Campaign received 39% of the vote on the first attempt. It was not the 51% needed, but it was still victorious in uniting the community and beginning to expose the prejudice behind displacement. It also opened wide the doors for future Latino political candidates. As Ms. Romero moved west to Humboldt Park she was hired as a community organizer for Bickerdike, a non profit development corporation. She used her Young Lords organizing skills and passion to promote their mission of being, deeply dedicated to preserving the ethnic and cultural character of their neighborhoods, providing quality affordable housing, preserving jobs, advocating for resources and struggling against gentrification and displacement. One of the main issues that Ms. Romero advocated for was the “Chicago Affordable Set Aside.” �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Let me see if we can start doing. I think so. Okay. María, to start, just give me your full name, date of birth, and where you were born. MARIA ROMERO: My full name is Cruz María Romero and I was born in Río Piedras, Puerto Rico on May 1st, a wonderful day to be born because it’s a very actionfilled and political day, I learned later. There may be a reason for that. JJ: Oh, May 1st, yes. Okay. But Cruz is your first name? MR: Cruz is my first name. JJ: Okay. MR: I just don’t use it because as I was in school, they confused it with a last name, or they can’t, for some reason. Cruz is an easy name to pronounce, but for some reason, they decided to call me María. It must have been easier for the anglos. JJ: So they confused it? What school was that? MR: The first school I went to was McLaren School. JJ: Okay. Where is that at? MR: I don’t know [00:01:00] where it was. That’s where I was in kindergarten. Then after that, I went to Skinner School. I’m thinking both on the West Side because that’s when we lived on Van Buren, I believe. Yes, that’s when we lived on Van Buren Street. JJ: Do you know what address in Van Buren? MR: Thirteen thirty-four Van Buren, West Van Buren. JJ: West Van Buren? Okay. 1 �MR: Yeah, right before the bridge. My dad had a botánica up that way. JJ: Oh, what’s a botánica, (inaudible)? MR: Una botánica is where they sell -- usually the person in charge of it is a santero, and they use natural healing. They also deal with spiritism and things like that. My father was into that. JJ: So your father was into that. MR: Yes, he was. He used to have (Spanish) [00:01:54], I guess they call them, and right before [00:02:00] he went into the nursing home, he used to give classes. Like, toward the end of his life, he would give people classes for that. JJ: So what do you mean, a class? MR: He would teach them what he did, how to mix all the stuff. I really didn’t get into it, and now I wish I had because of the medicinal side of it because they used a lot of natural medicine. But I felt it was the occult and I’m a Christian and scripture says not to mess with that. It doesn’t say it doesn’t exist. It says don’t mess with it. So I would leave it alone. I think my dad was disappointed that none of us followed in his footsteps, but he prepared other people to do it. JJ: Well, let me ask you this. Let me. Okay, your father’s name? Did we get his name? What’s your father -- MR: [Cayetano?]. JJ: Cayetano. MR: Romero. JJ: Romero, okay. And what town is [00:03:00] he from in Puerto Rico? You said you were born here, though, right? 2 �MR: I was born in Río Piedras. JJ: In Río Piedras, okay. MR: My dad’s family is from Carolina and my mother’s family is from Río Piedras. JJ: And your mother’s name? MR: Ana Maria. Ana Maria Santiago Romero. JJ: Santiago Romero, okay. And (Spanish) [00:03:19] your father, Cayetano, (Spanish) [00:03:24], and how about your mother? Did she believe in that? MR: I don’t know. I have an aunt who did who was very involved. My mom was a housewife and she took care of the kids and whoever came by and all of that. But I don’t remember her actively participating. JJ: What about your father’s brothers and sisters? MR: I think they all believed. My dad was one of the oldest brothers and they had a lot of respect for him. They would go to him whenever they needed counseling [00:04:00] or something, yeah. JJ: Okay. And had you seen any of why he was praying or anything like that? How did he do it? MR: No, I was never allowed. JJ: Did he have an altar in the house or no? MR: Yes, he did. That, he did, and he always taught us to pray, and every week we would go in what we called the cuartito, and there he had all his santos and a picture of Jesus, and he taught us all -- JJ: What kind of stuff? What kind of santos? MR: His botánica was always named San Judas, so he always had that santo. 3 �JJ: San Judas Tadeo. MR: Yes. Yes, and I remember the picture of faith, hope, and charity. I remember that. But I remember he always taught us to pray to Jesus. He always taught me to pray to Jesus. JJ: Okay, so he always taught you to pray to Jesus. So it was connected in a way with the Catholic church, but it was also part of the -- MR: Yeah, when we went to church when we were kids, [00:05:00] we went to a Catholic church. JJ: Where did you go? MR: We went to Notre Dame. JJ: Notre Dame in Puerto Rico? MR: No, here, here, on the West Side. JJ: Oh, Notre Dame on the West Side. Okay. MR: And from school, they used to take us to St. Patrick’s. JJ: So you came when you were -- MR: I was a baby. I was nine months old when we came from Puerto Rico. JJ: And what year was that? MR: Fifty-five, 1955, when they came with us. My mother had been in New York. She had lived in New York and worked for a woman as a maid. She brought her from Puerto Rico -- that wasn’t too nice to her, apparently. And her and my father were communicating. He was in Chicago, so they went back to Puerto Rico, met there, and I believe that that’s when they went to Indiana. They owned a restaurant there by the steel mills. Then after that, for whatever reason, they 4 �decided to go back to [00:06:00] Puerto Rico, and that’s when my brother was born and I was born, and then they came to Chicago to the hotel we were talking about. The Water Something Hotel. JJ: The Water Hotel. F1: Water Hotel. JJ: The Water Hotel, okay. Somebody here knows about that. MR: I was a kid. I remember sitting in the window and I remember the trucks with the fruit and the guy yelling, “Watermelon.” And we’d run to the window and my dad would get baskets of tomatoes and fruit and stuff like that. Then I remember that our uncles, his cousins and people like that little by little came. They would come there and then move somewhere else. JJ: So that was like a stopping point for everybody? MR: Yeah. JJ: Was it because the rent was cheap or something? MR: Probably. They had small rooms. I remember the apartment we lived in. I remember it seemed like a really big room [00:07:00] and the kitchen was over to the side. There was the dining table, and then here was the windows and I guess the living area. JJ: Then there was a bedroom? MR: And then there was a bedroom. I don’t know exactly how many bedrooms there were, but there were a lot of apartments. I remember big, giant doors. My sister and a cousin of mine -- my sister, Yolanda -- were playing by one of those doors and it smashed her finger. To this day, one of her thumbs, the nail doesn’t grow 5 �right because of that accident. The door smashed her finger. My brother George was born in that apartment. JJ: It was Chinatown? MR: Yeah. Yeah, they put him in a drawer. The nurses from County Hospital came. When he was born, they put him in a drawer ’cause I guess there wasn’t a crib, and he was cold. JJ: The drawer of a dresser? A dresser drawer? MR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: The nurses did that? MR: Yeah, the nurses. JJ: Well, was he born in the house? MR: Yeah, he was born in the house. JJ: [00:08:00] At the Water Hotel? MR: Yes. JJ: This is Chinatown? MR: Yes. JJ: Okay. You said he was born in the house. MR: Yes. JJ: I had a sister born in Chinatown. MR: I think he might’ve been the only one. JJ: So what year was that about? MR: Oh, I don’t know. JJ: But he’s younger than you. 6 �MR: Yes. He’s like a year younger than me. JJ: Oh, okay. MR: Fifty-six. JJ: So around ’56, he was born there. MR: Yeah, and I remember they turned on the oven to keep him warm and put him by the oven. JJ: (Spanish) [00:08:28] came? MR: Yeah, midwives, I think they were. JJ: They had them all over. You said they turned, what, the water? MR: The stove. They turned the stove on to warm him when he was born because whatever issues he was having. I believe my youngest sister may have been born in the house too. I’m not sure about that. JJ: But at that time, they had a (Spanish) [00:08:48]. They had that at that time. MR: Yes. JJ: At that time. Okay. So (Spanish) [00:09:00] you were going to school. Did you go to school there? MR: No. JJ: Where did you go to -- MR: I started -- JJ: Church. You said you went to the Catholic church. MR: Yeah, Notre Dame Church, we went to. JJ: Notre Dame. But I mean, do you remember going to church there with your mother or anything? 7 �MR: I remember us going to church. They had a basement that they had the Spanish church, and we would go there or we would go to service with my parents. I had a cousin that was very devoted. I remember one Easter, it was really, really cold. We were supposed to go to church, and it snowed. So my mom didn’t send us, and I was looking through the window, and my poor little cousin was in her Easter outfit, walking across the bridge. So that’s when we lived on Van Buren. And it seemed like you’d move into one place -- and that happened with me too. I’d move into a building and then the rest of my family would end up moving into the same building. But that happened a lot [00:10:00] with our family. JJ: So the family just followed you. MR: Yeah. Yeah. And the Van Buren building was a big courtway building. JJ: What address on Van Buren? MR: Thirteen thirty-four West Van Buren. JJ: You said there was a big building too, like the Water Hotel? MR: It was a big courtway building, something like this. JJ: So a courtway building, okay. MR: And the whole family practically lived in all the courtways. And I’ve met other people throughout. JJ: The Romero family? MR: Yeah, and cousins, and you know. What is the other? [Trejes?]. JJ: Oh, Trejes were also there. That’s [your family?], the Trejes? 8 �MR: That’s one of the last names. But I believe that’s part of the family that lived in New York. There’s a whole group of them which are now in Florida that lived in New York. I have an aunt who raised her kids, like five, six kids there. JJ: Okay. So you were about how old [00:11:00] at Van Buren? How old were you then? MR: I wasn’t in school yet, so maybe four, I’m guessing, ’cause I’m just guessing that’s how far back I can remember. JJ: But you remember that courtway pretty well. MR: Yes. The courtway building, I remember well ’cause that’s when we were in Skinner School. JJ: So what do you remember about the things that (inaudible)? MR: That wasn’t Skinner School. JJ: It wasn’t? MR: Mm-mm. Now I’m not remembering well. It was so long ago. Memory’s foggy. JJ: I’m just trying to figure out what kind of memories do you have of that time when you were at Van Buren. The neighborhood, were there a lot of Puerto Ricans? MR: Yes, there were, and my family had rented a hall -- JJ: In the courtway building? In the courtway building? MR: Yes, there were a lot of Puerto Ricans. The area was mostly Afro American, and I guess there were groups of Puerto Ricans. JJ: Different sections. And your father rented a home, you said? MR: My uncles, [00:12:00] my dad, had a hall, and that’s where we would celebrate because the family was really big. All the cousins and everyone lived in the 9 �building. They would play domino and things like that on the weekend. Then I remember Christmas holidays. JJ: Where were they playing dominoes at? MR: At the hall. Yeah, my father was pretty good at it. He had all kinds of trophies. I think one of my sisters has his trophies still from playing domino. JJ: So he would rent a hall and people would pay? MR: They rented the hall, yeah. JJ: Together, they would rent the hall. MR: Yeah. JJ: So did he have a social club? MR: Yeah. I guess that’s what it was. I don’t remember the name of it. They didn’t have a specific name. But neighbors would always be there, and on the weekend, they’d drink and they’d sell liquor, and that’s probably how they paid the rent. Then on holidays, the kids would put on performances. JJ: Was this a big hall or a storefront? MR: No, I remember just, like, something like Casa Puertorriqueña. It looked [00:13:00] something like that. And they had a little bar and my uncles would mix drinks. JJ: So it was like a social -- MR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay. But you don’t remember who was (inaudible) after the Río Piedras, or --? MR: No, I don’t remember what it was named. JJ: Okay. So you used to go to that home? 10 �MR: Yeah, on holidays, we’d go. JJ: And your family and stuff like that? MR: Yeah. Whenever there was a party, the ladies would all cook. My mother would cook and the food would go there. Everyone would celebrate holidays there. And it was on Van Buren because it was right next to the building. JJ: Okay. And then what else do you remember on Van Buren, that area? Because I know there was a street called Madison nearby. MR: Yeah. I know we lived on Harrison. JJ: You lived on Harrison? MR: Yes. And when we were in Skinner School, it was on Throop, so I guess that was when we lived on Van Buren because I remember the back was a big -[00:14:00] I remember getting robbed on my way to school with my cousins because we all used to go to school in a pack. When we got older, they let us go by ourselves, and I remember a couple of tall Black guys stopped us and they took my purse. My brothers weren’t with us. I remember one time that my brother had a fight and I was coming out of school. Then I got into it and I got in trouble because I got into the fight. I got in to help my brother and tore this guy’s shirt. The mother came to our house and she was making stuff up about what I had done. So I spoke up to defend myself and my mother smacked me because I yelled at an adult. But then she told the lady, “No, I’m not paying for your shirt. This is my daughter and that was your son.” She defended me, but she taught me that you don’t raise your voice to elders. [00:15:00] I remember that real clearly. 11 �JJ: Okay. What other things did your mom teach you? MR: How to be a mom. JJ: What do you mean by that? MR: How to treat my kids, how to -- JJ: How did she tell you to treat your kids? MR: Well -- JJ: I’m trying to find out what moms used to teach the women at that time. MR: Well, my mom taught me how to cook. I’m a great cook. It’s hard for me because I still miss her. She’s been gone almost three years and she just showed me what unconditional love was. You know, regardless to what mistakes we made, she still loved us, and she still accepted us. She taught us that. She taught us to be like that with our children. JJ: Want me to stop this for a little bit? MR: Yeah. (break in audio) JJ: Okay. Can you tell me something about Van Buren? MR: Okay. I remember the summers there. I remember playing in the courtway with the other kids [00:16:00] in the building. The majority of the people that lived there were Puerto Rican. I had an aunt who sold bolita, and I remember taking the numbers to her. JJ: What is bolita? MR: Numbers. The numbers. It was like lottery, illegal lottery. JJ: It was illegal? 12 �MR: Yeah. JJ: Why was it illegal? MR: I don’t know why it was illegal. I just know it was illegal. JJ: (inaudible) Your aunt, you said? MR: Yeah, I had an aunt. JJ: And she sold it? MR: Yeah. JJ: So the women and the men were selling that. MR: Yeah, in our family. JJ: Now, that one wasn’t from [lo chino?], right? There was a bolita they called [los chinos?]. MR: I don’t know. I think there were two. I think that there was another one. JJ: There was another one too? MR: I’m not sure, but I used to love going to her house because she had a real pretty house and real pretty apartment. JJ: This is on Van Buren? MR: Yes, in one of the courtway buildings. I remember taking the numbers to her. I also remember my dad. He had a [00:17:00] botánica then, and he got caught. JJ: What do you mean? MR: He got caught selling numbers and they had him handcuffed to one of his vitrinas. What’s a vitrina in English? JJ: Vitrina? I don’t know. 13 �MR: Display thing or whatever. I remember us being all upset because my father had gotten arrested and my uncles didn’t seem worried about it. They went and got him out of jail. As far as we knew, it was over with. But I remember that pretty clearly. I remember playing in the fire hydrant, or watching -- JJ: Was that the first time he got arrested for that, or no? MR: As far as I knew. That’s one time that I knew. Who knows? Because they didn’t tell you too much when you were a kid. JJ: But your uncles were not worried about it? MR: They didn’t seem worried about it. They just went and got him. JJ: Had they sold bolita too? MR: Huh? JJ: Did some of them sell bolita or no? MR: I don’t think so. JJ: It was just your father. MR: My father and then my aunt. My aunt, [00:18:00] she was the -- JJ: What was the botánica called? MR: San Judas. His botánica was always called San Judas wherever. He had one on Halsted too, on Halsted and Broadway. JJ: So it’s a business. I mean, from (inaudible). MR: Yeah, because he worked -- JJ: Halsted and what? MR: Broadway. On the North Side, he had it. Wherever we lived, he had a botánica. It was always named San Judas. That was his patron saint. 14 �JJ: So he sold different -- he must’ve had good business, then. MR: Yeah, he did. JJ: A lot of people in the community went over there. MR: He had people coming from out of Chicago from Indiana. JJ: What do people buy? From Indiana? MR: They bought statues. He used to mix stuff, powders and things like that for them. They would buy that. He used to do trabajos for them, you know, spiritual things. JJ: What’s a trabajo? MR: Like a spell. JJ: So you make a spell on somebody. An evil spell? MR: I don’t know. He always said it wasn’t. He always said it wasn’t, and a lot of times, and I don’t know if I should [00:19:00] say this on tape because I don’t know who’s gonna see it. But a lot of times when people would go and ask him to do evil things, he would take their money and say, “Yeah, I’m gonna do it.” And he’d do that so they wouldn’t go to somebody else and get it done. JJ: Right, but he wouldn’t do it. MR: He wouldn’t do things that he felt were evil. JJ: He only did the good things. He would do the good things. MR: Yeah. JJ: Well, okay. MR: My father’s funeral was enormous. His wake here was really packed, so a lot of people knew him through that and other stuff, I guess. Then he had a wake in Puerto Rico and a lot of people came to that. He had two wakes. 15 �JJ: He had a wake here. MR: And then they took his body to Puerto Rico and he had a huge wake there. JJ: So he was well known in Puerto Rico and here for that. That must’ve come down -- you said it might’ve come down from his father too? MR: Maybe. I don’t know. I don’t know [00:20:00] a lot about my grandparents since we grew up here and didn’t go back a lot. I knew my grandfather from pictures. He’s very dark. His name was Simplicio. JJ: Simplicio what? MR: Romero. JJ: Romero. And from the same town and everything? MR: Yes. Yes. JJ: But you don’t know anything about him? MR: Not too much, no. JJ: What did you know about him? MR: All I knew was that he lived to be very old, and this is because my father would complain about the food here. He would say that his father ate whatever he wanted and however he wanted and never got sick with diabetes or anything, and that from coming here, everyone got sick, you know. Him, his brothers, [00:21:00] and all of that. He used to say (Spanish) [00:21:02] in Puerto Rico. And over here, they change his diet completely and he still was diabetic and sick and stuff, even though I don’t think my father followed his diet. And he was a good granddad. JJ: So (inaudible) kind of runs in the culture. 16 �MR: It does, yeah. Yeah. I’m trying to fight it with diet because I don’t wanna take pills. I’m really against taking pills. And I guess I get it from him, and because I know he used to make medicines, so I’m trying to look into -- JJ: Trying to get some of that medicine? MR: Yeah, trying to be able to put that -- without the occult part, because it’s all natural medicine and natural healing. Like for instance, I was diagnosed with arthritis about nine years ago and I had been drinking apple cider vinegar [00:22:00] to help with my appetite. And I researched it further, and if you take organic apple cider vinegar every morning, it helps you with your arthritis. I don’t take any pain medication and it’s been, what, nine years? That’s what I take in the morning. I drink apple cider vinegar in water and I don’t have to take all those medications, and those medications messed up my mom. You know, I saw my parents deteriorate and a lot of it, I think it was because of the medication that they were given here, the pills, because they may fix your pain, but they mess up your stomach. They give you medicine for fungus and it messes up your liver. JJ: Right, right, that’s right. You’ve got to take one pill for another thing. MR: Yeah. Recently I went to the doctor and I -- JJ: It’s business. It’s a big business. MR: Yeah. They’ve been telling me for years that I’m borderline diabetic, so I’ve been trying to control it with diet. [00:23:00] Then the last time I went to the doctor, he tells me that they’ve changed the way they measure it, so now instead of being borderline diabetic, I’m diabetic. I asked him what new medication came out that you need patients for. I’m not taking it. I’m gonna continue with diet and talk to a 17 �nutritionist and see what happens. So we’re there. But my son was diagnosed diabetic and he takes medication every day. I just fight it. JJ: Yeah, take pills, yeah. The diet does work pretty good. And the medicine, I mean, like, people in China, there’s like a billion people. That’s all they use is natural -- MR: Herbal medicines? JJ: Herbal medicines. So that’s a billion people. They must know what they’re talking about. MR: Right. JJ: And it is part of [us?]. So it looks like in later years, you’re kind of [00:24:00] looking into what your father was doing, but at that time, you didn’t believe in it because you were a Catholic? MR: Well, when I started helping him in his botánica, I was older, and by then I had become a Christian. I didn’t believe in the idolatry. I didn’t believe in praying to saints, including the Catholic church. And from when I was little, my father always taught me to pray to Jesus. That may have influenced how I felt. JJ: So you can pray to Jesus, but not to saints. MR: Right. Right. JJ: So you believe that. Okay. MR: Jesus and God, one and the same to me. But you don’t need intermediary to pray to God. JJ: Okay. I see what you’re saying. So the saint would be like a -- MR: Yeah. 18 �JJ: There’s somebody in between. MR: Yeah. Why go through the middle man when you could go straight to the big guy, so to speak? JJ: [00:25:00] Okay. Why go to a retail when you can go -- MR: Exactly. Exactly. JJ: Okay. Van Buren, how long did you live there about? MR: We were there till I was in, like, sixth grade, the beginning of sixth grade. That’s when we moved north. That’s when my brothers and sisters went to Newberry. JJ: Oh, they went to Newberry School in Lincoln Park. MR: Yes, that’s when we moved to Lincoln Park. JJ: About what year was that? MR: Let’s see, sixth grade. Maybe around ’67. JJ: In ’55, you came, right? Oh, sixth grade. MR: But I was in sixth grade. We moved north. JJ: So you lived a lot of years on Van Buren. MR: On Van Buren, on Harrison. It wasn’t just [00:26:00] Van Buren. I remember Van Buren more because we lived there the longest. But we lived on Harrison Street and I don’t know what other places we lived at, but I know that the last school I remember was Skinner School. In kindergarten, I went to McLaren School. I don’t remember where that was. But it’s West Side. I believe it was the West Side of Chicago, all of those. JJ: Okay, so you went to sixth grade in Newberry. 19 �MR: No, I went to Arnold. My brothers and sisters went to Newberry. Then since I was in sixth grade, Arnold was the upper grade center. JJ: Oh, the upper grade center, you have sixth, seventh, and eighth. MR: Right, and then I graduated from there. My brother graduated from there from grade school. We went to Waller. JJ: Okay. When you went to Arnold and your brothers and sisters went to Newberry, where did you live? MR: On Halsted Street. JJ: Halsted and what? Do you remember the address? MR: Eighteen forty-one North Halsted. So it was [00:27:00] almost to the -- what was the Del Farm, almost to North Avenue. Isn’t that where the Del Farm was? JJ: Del Farm was the supermarket? MR: Mm-hmm, or maybe it was an A&P. JJ: Yeah, it was on North Avenue. North Avenue and Halsted, there was one. MR: Exactly. JJ: We lived right behind there. MR: Oh. JJ: We were on North Avenue and Halsted, because then there was (inaudible) and transformers, a factory next to it. That was by the L tracks. Right by the L tracks. Okay. Now, that’s like 1600. That’s not 1800, that’s 1600. North Avenue is 1600. MR: Yeah, but we were a few blocks before that. JJ: Going towards Armitage? 20 �MR: Mm-hmm. JJ: Oh, so you were in 1800 like you said. You said 18 what? MR: Eighteen forty-one. JJ: Eighteen forty-one Halsted. MR: Yeah. JJ: So then you were closer to Wisconsin [00:28:00] and Halsted, I think. MR: Maybe. JJ: I’m not sure. Wisconsin started at 1900, I believe. So you were there just before you get to Wisconsin, between Willow and Wisconsin. MR: Yeah, I remember Willow. JJ: Okay, you remember Willow, okay. Because there was a store there on the corner. MR: Yeah. What was the name of that store? JJ: El Campo. [Remember when we asked for?]. El Campo Foods. MR: I remember that. JJ: Yeah. What do you remember about that? MR: I remember my father used to shop there. I remember my father always used to make the compra, but my mom stopped him because he used to buy a lot of junk. He used to buy a lot of sweets, and then in the middle of the week, there was no meat. JJ: Yeah, (Spanish) [00:28:44] Mario, and he used to -- you know, Clark Street before he was there. So you went from Van Buren to there. How was Arnold? What do you remember about Arnold? 21 �MR: [00:29:00] That’s where I first heard about the Young Lords, in that area. JJ: What did you hear about the Young Lords? MR: I used to get their pamphlets. JJ: So the Young Lords were political. So this was ’69. MR: Yes, that’s the year I graduated from the eighth grade. JJ: Okay. MR: I remember I used to bring there -- JJ: Sixty-nine, you graduated from -- MR: Yes. JJ: So you heard about the Young Lords. So was that a big thing there? MR: It was a big deal to me. It was a big deal to all our family. JJ: To the family? MR: Well, yeah. JJ: People were talking about them? MR: They did. The parents didn’t talk about them real good. I used to have to hide the pamphlets, bring them home and hide them because I’d get in trouble. JJ: Oh, so the parents were against the Young Lords. MR: Yeah. Yeah. It politicized me. I was like, you know, the things they’re talking about, they’re true. JJ: What did the parents say? MR: That they were gangueros. JJ: Okay, gangueros. They were gang members? 22 �MR: I remember, [00:30:00] (Spanish). I remember that. I’d be like, okay, you know. I remember I had a friend, a Native American friend that I knew from school, and she had been at some event and came to my house to visit me, and my parents got really upset. They wanted me to ask her to leave, and so she left. JJ: Because she was Native American? MR: No, because she was involved in that. JJ: With the Young Lords? MR: Yes. And I think she had just been at an event that the Young Lords had had or something like that and was talking to me about it. I was getting really excited and my parents were like, “No, you’re not gonna be involved in this.” JJ: So there was talk in the neighborhood about the Young Lords. MR: Yeah. JJ: Some were for, some were against, but they were talking. Everybody was talking about them. MR: Yeah, because that’s when I first heard about urban renewal. JJ: Because (inaudible) for it. MR: That’s where I heard about urban renewal. I think I learned about Plan 21 [00:31:00] later on. JJ: Okay. How were you feeling? Your parents were against it. MR: It excited me and it attracted me, but my parents were very strict. JJ: What excited you about it? 23 �MR: That they were going against things that were wrong or that I was seeing, that things were really wrong, like the racism and all of that was really true, that it wasn’t imagined. JJ: Okay. How did you see that? I mean, how did you see the racism? MR: Just like how some of the teachers would treat you. The area we lived in were mostly Latinos. We had issues with the Blacks, and sometimes I felt racism like that. But, yeah, a feeling that just things weren’t right. I didn’t understand why we always had to move. [00:32:00] Our landlords were always white fat old men, you know? It just started. Not really, but started to make things clear to me. I saw the Black movement. It gave me pride that we were dealing with things that were wrong as well. It wasn’t all about Black power all the time, even though that was good too. But we were doing something and that gave me pride. JJ: They said, “Well, let us get some of that too,” right? MR: That’s right. That’s right. I remember when they took over the church. I saw it on TV and I was like, yeah, you know? The programs that they were starting and things like that, it gave me a sense of pride and of relief that we weren’t just standing by and taking it, that we were doing something about it. JJ: So now at that time, did you [00:33:00] ever come by the church at all? MR: No, they didn’t let me. JJ: Oh, your parents wouldn’t let you go. MR: Uh-uh. All I could do was get the pamphlets. JJ: Were they worried that you would go there? MR: Yeah. Yeah, they were. 24 �JJ: So they were trying to keep their daughters in the house. Did they say anything to the guys, to the boys, or no? Was it just a daughter thing? MR: My father was strict with all of us. But, yeah, whenever anything happened, the boys always got to go and we were always in the house. I always tried. “Can I go?” “No.” And no, like, you’re crazy, why are you even asking? But that was the issue between my dad and I. JJ: So what were the kids saying, the youth? What were they saying -- MR: In school? JJ: -- at Arnold, yeah. MR: It was mostly going to and coming from school that we’d get pamphlets, that we’d get -- JJ: [00:34:00] What do you mean? The Young Lords were passing pamphlets? MR: Yeah, or whoever. I don’t remember if it was there that I got Pa’lante. I don’t remember real clear. But I know there was when I began to get politically educated, I guess. Then we moved north after that. My uncles moved and their families moved to the West Side, what we called the West Side, which was around here. We moved north. We lived on Elaine Street. JJ: Okay. So some of your family came west and some went north. Was this when they started moving people out? MR: Yeah. JJ: Or was this just because you wanted to move? MR: Well, rent was too high in the area, so they found another neighborhood to move into. That’s when we moved north. 25 �JJ: [00:35:00] Okay. So this was around ’70, something like that? MR: Probably. JJ: Okay. So you moved to? MR: Yes, it was around ’70. I went to Waller for my freshman year. JJ: Okay, so that would’ve been 1970. MR: Then we moved and I was still at Waller. JJ: What was Waller like in 1970? MR: It was fine with me. I remember I participated in the -- remember girls could only wear skirts to school? In my freshman year, we would go to our classes and wear pants and then get kicked out and then go to our next class. I think that was my first experience with organizing and doing any kind of direct action, although I didn’t know about it then. JJ: So they were organizing at Waller at that time in the 1970s, and probably a result of some of the work that the Young Lords and the other groups were doing in the neighborhood. MR: Probably. JJ: Because they were organizing. MR: Mm-hmm. JJ: [00:36:00] Okay. I mean, I don’t wanna put words in your mouth. How did that start, wearing the pants? Who did that? Who was organizing that? MR: I don’t remember. I don’t remember who was organizing it, but I got wind of it and I said, “Oh, yeah.” I remember I didn’t have a lot of pants because they didn’t let me wear pants a lot. I had like maybe two pairs. And just to make sure 26 �that I wore pants every day, I would wash them and dry them at night, then finish ironing them dry just to make sure that I wore pants. I’d tell my mother, “No, we have to wear pants today.” Of course, they believed us, which is why my kids didn’t get away with anything because I knew what I used to tell my parents. So they weren’t able to tell me the same things. I’d be like, yeah, right, I used to do that. But, yeah, and a lot of the teachers supported it and they would just mark us, that we came to class, and kick us out because they had to kick us out. JJ: Oh, so the teachers were supporting the -- MR: A lot of the teachers [00:37:00] were. Some weren’t, but a lot of the teachers supported, yeah. JJ: At Waller High School. MR: Mm-hmm. And then I went to Lakeview for a little bit. JJ: Okay. Now, before we get to Lakeview, at Halsted and Dickens was a restaurant. Were you familiar with that? You weren’t there during that time. MR: Halsted and Dickens? JJ: It’s before the Young Lords got political. There was a hot dog stand there at Halsted and Dickens. Or you didn’t go there? MR: Yes, real good fries. Real good french fries, right? JJ: Right. Puerto Ricans used to hang around there too. MR: Yes. JJ: Okay, so that was from before. MR: I remember that. 27 �JJ: But it still was there for a while. But I think at that time, it was on the other side. I think they moved to the other side. You said Lakeview? Then you went to Lakeview? MR: Yes, I went to Lakeview for the end of my freshman year and part of my sophomore year. Then I left high school. JJ: Then you left high school. So where were you living at when you went to Lakeview? MR: Started at Lakeview, [00:38:00] we lived on Elaine. JJ: So Elaine Place is where. Elaine and what other street? What’s the address? Do you know the address? MR: I don’t remember the address. JJ: Okay, Elaine Place, it was called. MR: And we lived on Roscoe and Clark around that time. JJ: So was Elaine around Roscoe? MR: Yeah, it was near. It was close by. JJ: What do you remember there? Who do you remember there? MR: I remember Latin Kings on Roscoe. On Roscoe and Halsted, I remember. Yeah, and the guys playing football in front. A Puerto Rican community there. There was a restaurant on Clark and Roscoe that was, like, real old school, and they sold fountain drinks and hot dogs the way they used to make them before. We used to go there a lot because it was close to the house. Still, my family was real strict, and that’s when we [00:39:00] used to sneak out of the house. My brothers started sneaking out of the house, and I remember my dad would come 28 �home and sit in the kitchen with his beer. I would stand in his view so that my brother would go out the door, and then I’d go open the window so that he’d come back at night. After a while, I was like, “Yeah, I wanna do that too, so you’ve gotta do it for me.” So we had to switch over. All I would do is go walking around with my friend, looking at the guys or whatever. Then I’d come home, or I’d go to the library a lot. I never made it to the library. I don’t think I knew where the library was. But that’s where I said I’d be going, or to the store. But my parents were real strict. My father particularly was real strict and I guess the way to protect us was to keep us in the house. We weren’t having it, or I Wasn’t having it. JJ: That’s for the guys and the girls. MR: Yeah. Yeah. My older brother [00:40:00] started working, and he worked at Jewel part-time. To get out, he would just always say he was working and they believed him. But he actually wasn’t. He got very involved in the African American movement and was talking a lot about Black power and wore dashikis. JJ: Which? MR: Carmelo. JJ: Carmelo, okay. MR: Yeah. JJ: So he was talking about Black power. MR: Most of his friends were Black, so he was all into that. JJ: But did he keep the closeness to the Puerto Rican community too or no? MR: Not during that time. Not during that time. 29 �JJ: At that time, it was more the Black Americans. MR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, Afro Americans, okay. So he would bring that home. He would try to teach people about that? MR: He would talk about it. JJ: Did he talk about Malcolm X or anybody? MR: Yes. JJ: So he talked about Malcolm X. Okay. MR: Yeah. JJ: Because [00:41:00] there was no Latino movement, Puerto Rican movement. MR: I guess not. JJ: Okay, that he could relate to. MR: Right. JJ: He didn’t relate to the Young Lords. MR: I don’t think so. JJ: Okay. Okay. So now the other brothers, though, Chinatown, there was the other one that used to sneak through the window. MR: Uh-huh. JJ: Was he a member of a youth group? MR: During that time, he may have been. I don’t know who he was affiliated when we lived on Roscoe. It wasn’t until we moved. JJ: But he wasn’t with the Kings. 30 �MR: No. No. When we moved to what they call Wrigleyville now, that’s when he became involved with the Latin Eagles. JJ: With the Latin Eagles. Affiliated with them. Okay, because I know he was pretty well known in the Latin Eagles, one of the main people. MR: And that’s where we met Pops and [00:42:00] [Kooks?] and all the Jiménez and all the other people in the area that we finished growing up with. JJ: Did you live on Sheffield? Is that where you lived? Where did you live? MR: Let me think. I lived on Sheffield when I lived on my own. JJ: Not when you lived alone, but with your family. MR: With my family, we lived on Elaine. Then we lived on Roscoe. Then I believe it was Fremont. JJ: Oh, Fremont. Okay. Fremont. MR: And Grace. JJ: Oh, Fremont and Grace, okay. MR: Close to LeMoyne School. JJ: Okay. MR: My brothers and sisters, I was out of school. We lived on Halsted as well, on Halsted and Broadway in the building where my dad’s botánica was. But during that time, I was in Job Corps. JJ: Halsted, [Bowling?], Grace. MR: Yes. JJ: There was the botánica. So you lived there, okay. 31 �MR: [00:43:00] During that time, I was in Job Corps, so I wasn’t at home. My family lived on Halsted. Then they moved to Fremont and I came back home. Then I moved out, and that’s when I lived on Sheffield. That’s when I got the apartment on Sheffield. [Danny?] was born. JJ: You have one child, Danny. MR: Yeah. Well, I have two more now. JJ: Who are your children now? MR: [Ana?]. She’s in her room. Yeah, she’s in her room. Then I have an older daughter, [Jasmine?]. She’s married. Danny’s between apartments, so he’s here with me now for a few days, hopefully. Yeah, I’m trying to empty my nest. My youngest one still lives with me. She’s at Northeastern. She’s finishing up there. My older daughter went to Kentucky [00:44:00] and studied in a Bible college, and then she got married out there to un güero. Nice guy, though. Now she’s finishing up early childhood development as she works as a nanny. JJ: Okay. So you did some work with Job Corps, you said. MR: I was a -- JJ: Participant. MR: Yes. Yes. They would pay us -- I remember it was 14.22 every two weeks. But I liked Job Corps. I enjoyed it. We led a protest there too. JJ: Fourteen twenty-two, what do you mean? MR: Fourteen dollars and twenty-two cents was our spending money. JJ: Oh, that was your spending money. And they paid for everything? MR: Yeah, they (inaudible). 32 �JJ: What city was this? MR: This was here in Chicago on 15th and Indiana. The building became a work release after that. JJ: Fifteenth and Indiana? MR: Fifteen hundred South Indiana. I was there two years. I studied Allied Health, nurse’s aide medical [00:45:00] assisting. Not medical assisting, dental assisting. I became a medical assistant much later on. But it was a training program. We finished high school there because I got caught cutting while I was at Lakeview. I used to go to all the Cubs games and I’d go Ladies Day on Fridays, and Wednesdays I’d go and be with the [bleacher bums?]. JJ: Ladies Day was free. Ladies Day was free. MR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. MR: And Wednesdays, the bleachers were a dollar, so a friend of mine and I used to cut school and go there. One day my sister, Julie, was home from school, watching, of course, the Cubs game, and she saw me on TV. I came home and - JJ: They [got it?]. MR: Yeah. So then at the same time, I guess it was just the time for me to get caught out. My mother had received a phone call from school about all my cuts because I didn’t like Lakeview. [00:46:00] It was like a culture shock. We were the minority. Blacks and Latinos were basically the minority at Lakeview when I went there. All the teachers were. 33 �JJ: What years did you say? MR: Seventy-one, ’72. There was a handful of African Americans there. That’s what I was accustomed to going to school with, and that’s the people I sought out. Then I discovered how easily I could go to a Cubs game and they didn’t let me go out at home, so I would go out while I was in school. I’d go to Piper’s Alley. JJ: What, in Oldtown, Piper’s Alley? MR: Yes. Yes, and just walking around. I remember we used to walk everywhere downtown because we never had any money, so everywhere we went, we walked. Whatever money we had, we’d use it to eat. But that day. I got caught up [00:47:00] and then my father said I had to quit school and I had to get a job. So we went to the Urban Progress Center. JJ: Where was that at? MR: On Montrose in Newtown. In Newtown? What is it? Is that what we called it? JJ: Yeah, I know which one you’re talking about. It was on Broadway. MR: Broadway and Montrose. JJ: Yeah, around there somewhere. MR: Around Wilson. JJ: Oh, that’s a different one I’m thinking. But on Wilson and around Montrose. MR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: They both run the same way, but it’s between there on Broadway. MR: Yeah. So he took me there to see if they could help me get a job. A gentleman there talked to me about Job Corps and they said, “Leave home. You would leave home.” I was like, yeah. Then I brought all the paperwork home and I 34 �begged my mother to convince my father [00:48:00] to sign it, so he did. Then I would come home on weekends. That was a good experience. JJ: A good experience? MR: I think so. JJ: Okay. You learned a few things there? MR: Yeah. Then they had a passage the parents had to sign for, and I forged my parents’ names, so I was able to go out. I wasn’t the greatest kid, you know. JJ: I mean, did you graduate from there? MR: Yes, I did. I got a nurse’s aide certificate there and I got a certificate for innovation therapy. I was on the -- what did we call it? It wasn’t student council. It was some kind of supposedly governing body that we had there. Of course, when we started holding teachers and the [00:49:00] the officials accountable, they weren’t real happy with that. JJ: At the Job Corps? MR: At Job Corps. JJ: What do you mean, you held them accountable? MR: Well, they had fired the director of education. Apparently he and a woman, another woman there had an affair, and they fired him for it but didn’t fire her. So we led a protest. They didn’t hire him back. JJ: So you led a protest, meaning what? MR: With the -- uh-uh, Ashley, go -- we led a protest and we wanted him hired back, but what happened was they ended up firing her. (laughter) I remember we led a hunger strike and we had organized some of the teachers. We would go and 35 �leave the food there after they had prepared it. We’d just put it back on the tray [00:50:00] full. Then we’d go back to our rooms and we had people that had brought us sandwiches and soda and things like that. JJ: So they snuck it? MR: Yeah. They would get food to us so we were eating, but we weren’t eating their food. JJ: And they thought you had the hunger strike. MR: Yeah. Yeah. I remember meeting with a group from the Black Panther Party with the gentleman that we were fighting for. At first he told us not to, and then when we saw that we were determined to do something, then we used to go -sometimes we wouldn’t go home. We’d go home with some of the teachers, and one of the teachers supposedly took us home and we went to a meeting. This is where they taught us how to do the hunger strike and who was gonna be giving us food and how to organize. JJ: Oh, so they were like teaching, the Panthers? At that time, they were teaching you how to do the hunger strike? MR: Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing [00:51:00] to me. I enjoyed it, you know. We were successful in getting her out of there too because we just settled for that. If they weren’t gonna hire him back, she had to go as well, and she did. JJ: So this was the Job Corps. Now, also you said you lived on Fremont and Grace. MR: Grace. When I came back from Job Corps, that’s where my family was living. I was in Job Corps two years. JJ: So you came back from Job Corps around ’73. 36 �MR: Yes. JJ: And ’73, that’s when the Young Lords moved in, basically? MR: Seventy-four because I had my son by then. JJ: Seventy-four, 1974. MR: I think Danny was three or four months. JJ: From ’73 to ’74, what did you do? MR: I was with my son’s father. I left home and I had my son and we were together. Then we broke up, and right around that time when we broke up, I was looking for work. I passed by the office and that’s where I met Angie. JJ: [00:52:00] The Young Lords’s office? MR: Uh-huh. JJ: On Wilton and Grace? MR: On Wilton and Grace. JJ: Was it nicely painted? MR: I don’t remember. JJ: What color was the paint? MR: I don’t remember. JJ: You don’t know? There was [a weird opinion?]. Was it purple? MR: Something like that. I don’t remember. I know it was different because it attracted my attention. It was right across the street from Figaro. You remember Figaro, right? The grocery store? JJ: Oh, Figaro was a grocery store on the corner? MR: Right across from the office with [Milta?], the wife and the two daughters. 37 �JJ: No, no, okay. So tell me about them because I’ve seen a picture of them. So his name was Figaro? MR: I don’t think that was his real name. JJ: No, but that’s what they called him, Figaro and his [wife?]. MR: Yeah, and he owned a lot of property. He stayed. JJ: But his wife was Milta and he had two children? MR: Milta, and he had two daughters. JJ: And he had been there for a while? MR: Yes. And I remember that they were trying to get him to move out. They were trying to get him to sell and [00:53:00] he owned several buildings in the area. JJ: What do you mean, they were trying to get him to move out and sell? MR: They were trying to gentrify him, however it was that they were making people sell their housing or whatever. He sold everything in the area but that store and he ended up staying quite a while after that, keeping the store there. Then he moved up this way. But they set his store on fire. They offered him money. He said no, he said he was staying. (Spanish) [00:53:29]. F1: (Spanish) [00:53:32]. MR: Oh, okay. Okay, (Spanish) [00:53:35]. They harassed him quite a bit and he was just a stubborn person. He says, “I ain’t going. I know what they’re doing.” Probably it was through education -- JJ: From the Young Lords. MR: -- from the Young Lords. JJ: Because he was right there. 38 �MR: Exactly. JJ: So he decided he was gonna fight. MR: And he did for a long time. He stayed until he wanted to. But he could afford it, you know. But [00:54:00] they set his store on fire. They did a lot of stuff to him, harassed him quite a bit. JJ: You know that it had to do with trying to get him out of there. And he knew that too? MR: Yeah. He knew it then. I didn’t realize it until I saw it happen in this area. JJ: In this community on the West Side. MR: In this community. I saw people that had paid, like, 45,000 dollars for their homes being pushed out. Aldermen, one in particular, that a person would go to his office to ask for a permit to do some remodeling and he’d say, “No, I’m not gonna give you the permit. I’ll give you 300 grand for your house.” Some people would sell. The ones that didn’t wanna sell all of the sudden would get all kind of building inspectors coming and all kind of fines levied on them and just all different kind of harassment. [00:55:00] So I know. I understand better what they did to people back then, just seeing it happen here. JJ: Because that was a community, right? MR: Exactly. JJ: Where you lived at, I mean. It wasn’t just you that lived. There were other Puerto Ricans that lived there. MR: Right, other Puerto Rican families. It was the Jiménez. It was the Colones. It was all the artists. Camandiera was in that area too. He had been in that area 39 �since Roscoe and Halsted as well, though I didn’t know him then. I got to know him when I was working with the Young Lords and my brother’s relationship to him and their art and when they did the mural. JJ: So it became clear what was going on at that time. MR: Right, I understood it better when I saw it happen here, when I worked on issues here and spoke to -- because here it wasn’t so much rental. It was more homeowners, and still they were pushed out. I remember speaking to people before in this area [00:56:00] and they would say, “No, that’s not gonna happen here.” My uncles would say, “That’s not gonna happen here. We own our property.” And it did. It did. All of Wicker Park, all that area is gone now. JJ: The whole community. Wicker Park as a community. MR: Exactly. JJ: It was primarily Puerto Rican. MR: Exactly. Now the only what you would call -- JJ: Your uncles were living there in Wicker Park? MR: My uncles lived in Humboldt Park. JJ: Okay. But they owned homes and they were -- MR: They owned homes and they were pushed out. JJ: How were they pushed out? MR: I’m really not sure. Not able to get permits to remodel. JJ: And (inaudible) remodel. They had to remodel but they couldn’t get the permits. MR: Right, but they couldn’t get the permits. Some felt they did all right because they sold their homes, and that’s what some of my uncles did. They sold and they 40 �moved to Puerto Rico. Property [00:57:00] taxes are ridiculous in this area, and your home would be paid for, but you couldn’t afford your property taxes. Like I said, there was this one particular alderman which I’m really happy to say that the last I heard of him, he was a used car salesman a few years ago. But Alderman Jesse Grenado. JJ: Jesse Grenado. MR: Yeah, and he just was a jerk. (laughs) That’s the nicest way I could put it. I could say other stuff, but I’m on tape. He was crooked. I have my issues with politicians anyway, but this was a very evil man, and whatever happened to him, he deserved. JJ: Just going back a little bit, so you went through a divorce and then you were on Sheffield, in that area. Then you walked by the Young Lords office. MR: I was looking for work and that was an office that [00:58:00] was just open, so I figured they may need somebody. I walked in there, and that’s when I met Angie. JJ: Angie? MR: Angie Lind. JJ: Lind at that time. She was Angie Lind. MR: Yes. That’s when I met her and I met Faith. JJ: You met Faith. Who else? Faith Schumaker. MR: Yes. JJ: Okay. Who else? MR: And [Cosmo?. JJ: Jose Cosmo Torres. 41 �MR: Yes. And you and Yoli. JJ: Okay, and Yolanda Lucas. MR: That’s when I started -- JJ: Which was my wife then at that time. MR: Yes, and that’s when I began going to the meetings. JJ: What kind of meetings? I mean, what do you mean, you went to the meetings? MR: I had meetings with Angie. I started talking with Faith. Faith, I talked a lot to. JJ: Because Angie kind of ran the office at that time. MR: Yes. I found out it was volunteer, so I had my reservations because I felt I needed to make some money. JJ: But you volunteered a lot, didn’t you? MR: Yeah. And then [00:59:00] I ended up just working at the office every day all the time. JJ: You were volunteering all day, not getting paid or anything like that. MR: No. Even now I’ve learned to respect how the Young Lords worked because we, having dealt with different organizations and seeing how they work and how they owe a certain politician, you know, because they’ve gotten money from this group of people so they can’t step on toes, whereas the Young Lords would get their money -- I remember collecting food stamps from people. People would do pledges, and that’s how they supported themselves so they didn’t owe big politicians any money. They could step on whoever’s toes they wanted because they didn’t owe anybody anything, which was something that was really hard to deal -- which I didn’t get for a long time, working with all these other 42 �organizations (Spanish) [00:59:51] and you don’t step on their toes. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you. [01:00:00] And I learned to appreciate that better, like this, you know, where you couldn’t really organize. You had to organize on what they wanted you to organize on. JJ: Because it wasn’t really a job. With the Young Lords. MR: Right, with the Young Lords, it was something I believed in. That’s when I learned more detailed about Plan 21 and urban renewal and people being pushed out and how we’re being pushed to the suburbs. JJ: So there was an education component. MR: Yes, politically educated, and understanding what a monster our wonderful mayor was. Yes, the Daddy, right? It was still the Daddy, yeah. And consecutive mayors, we’ve had till this day. JJ: Right, (inaudible). MR: And I understood too, I learned that when you saw changes in the community, like when I lived in Logan [01:01:00] Square, by then I knew that when you start seeing -- when a library comes, when a new church comes, when there’s a bank -- not a library, a bank -- a new church -- I educated my kids. I’d see these new little gardens and I’d be like, “Oh, the yuppies are coming. We’re gonna have to move. This is what happened.” And my kids understood it. As a matter of fact, my kids, if my kids have to move, we can pack up a house in an evening. We can take all this and pack it in an evening as long as we have all the supplies, because we moved so much. In Logan Square, on one street, we lived on every block from Kedzie and Albany to Albany and Belden. I can count about maybe 43 �eight buildings that we lived in until we moved here. [01:02:00] This is an affordable housing development, and that’s one of the only ways that people have been able to stay in this community. It’s been fought. We had to fight hard to get this building from people, the homeowners that are I guess brainwashed, that they don’t understand because they always say that Bickerdike is gonna bring prostitutes and drug dealers and all kind of unsavory characters to the neighborhood when to begin with, this is our neighborhood anyway. We were here. JJ: And Bickerdike is the organization that gets -- MR: A housing organization, and they do affordable housing. They have Section 8 project-based housing, which are the townhouses. They have a couple in Wicker Park. They’ve had to attend -- like a tenant organizer would have to attend the CAPS meetings just to keep people [01:03:00] from making our tenants the villains, you know. If we weren’t there, then after a while -- JJ: Have they ever made the tenants the villains? MR: Yeah, because developers would tell people when they move in, “Oh, don’t worry about them.” “What about that housing over there?” “Don’t worry about them. They’ll be gone.” And that’s not true. Bickerdike owns their housing and they’re not going anywhere, and it’s gonna be for low-income families always. Of course, they don’t like that. They want to turn the neighborhood white and, you know, people of color -- any color except white -- is not acceptable to them, even though they’re not from here. These people were here before they were. 44 �JJ: But it is mostly white people that are moving in. But what I’m saying, do you think they also wanna get rid of the poor? MR: Of course. It’s rich white, I should say, or whites with money. JJ: You can say it any way you want. MR: Or whites [01:04:00] that think they got money. Some of them are part of the 99 percent anyway but they don’t know that. They may be realizing that now. But at that time, some of them are living off their parents’ credit cards and just got out of college or whatever. I think a lot of them have had rude awakenings, you know, and a lot of these developers too because I see a lot of the condos that they built are still empty four or five years. JJ: You did some work also with Bickerdike, right? MR: A lot of work with Bickerdike. A lot of tenant organizing. JJ: Okay, so tell me about what kind of work did you do? How was your work? MR: I started with Bickerdike as a VISTA volunteer. I worked with the Chicago Alliance for Neighborhood Safety and I worked on dealing with issues of safety in the community. JJ: Meaning what, issues of safety? [01:05:00] What do you mean? MR: Concerns that tenants at Bickerdike had, particularly. JJ: Like stoplights? MR: Yes. Quality of life things, like putting in stoplights, but also attending the CAPS meetings, having -- JJ: So attending a CAPS meeting, what does that mean? 45 �MR: Generally I would attend with leaders, with people from the community, so they could participate more because as a community was gentrifying, we were trying to show that our people were not the enemy. We worked together with cops sometimes successfully. JJ: Is that what they told you to say, that our people are not the enemy? I mean, is that the goal? Was that the goal? MR: The goal was to get people to live together more harmoniously and to show that we were [01:06:00] not the prostitutes, gang bangers, or whatever that they said we were, that decent people did live in public housing or -- JJ: So the city and these developers were scaring people, or telling them that we wanna get rid of the drug dealers, the gang members, and all that. And that was just a tool they were using. MR: Exactly. JJ: Am I putting words in your mouth? MR: No. No, but you’re saying it exactly as I would say it. Yeah, it was a tool to further gentrify the community, and because our tenants were there and they were there to stay, they would try to find reasons to move people out. True, everyone who lives at Bickerdike -- JJ: So how would you change it? How would you explain to people? MR: By showing them by participating in safety events or having safety events. By participating in CAPS meetings. By building block clubs [01:07:00] and including people that, newcomers -- is what we used to call them -- and people from the community -- 46 �JJ: Together. MR: Yes. I had two block clubs, and they were pretty successful. JJ: So how did you start the block club? How did you get it organized? MR: I’d go door knocking. I’d talk to people about whatever safety issues they had. JJ: You would ask them? You would do like a survey or something? MR: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. A lot of times, you have to get to know people first, and they tell you what’s going on. JJ: You knock on the door. MR: Say, “Hi, I’m María. I work with Bickerdike, and can I speak to you for a little while?” Then I’d ask them about their safety concerns in the area. Sometimes it would be something that property management would fix. Sometimes it would be police harassment because they’d assume -- well, the cops, [01:08:00] somebody would call the police, and then they’d come and knock on the door and say, “Did you call the police?” That would make them a target, so it would discourage people from calling the police if something was going -- if there was a lot of drug dealing or people hanging out in front of our building, because they weren’t supposed to. You ask them to leave, they don’t listen. Then you call the cops. I always think of calling the cops as a last resort, but others didn’t. But anyway, I’d ask them what particular safety issues they were worried about. Sometimes it’d be -- JJ: I mean, they’d pay taxes. They got a right to protection from the police. 47 �MR: Sometimes they’d want a stoplight by the school or more police presence in the area and things like that. I also led or facilitated a garden committee. Bickerdike has two gardens. I had a committee, really [01:09:00] diverse -- JJ: What does the garden do? MR: We grew vegetables and flowers and things like that. But it was in areas that were kind of hot, and while we were there, because we were occupying public space, they wouldn’t come around. I think we got -- JJ: So these were hot areas, meaning for drugs and all that? MR: For drugs and gang banging. JJ: Because you were there all the time, they kinda stopped that. MR: Yeah. JJ: The gangs and the drugs stopped. In fact, didn’t that happen one time with the Young Lords on Wilton and Grace? Didn’t they clean up that area? MR: Yes, we did. JJ: Okay. I mean, at Wilton, just kind of go back there a little bit. So that used to be a drug corner, Wilton and Grace. MR: Oh, yeah, definitely, it was big time. JJ: Big time, until the Young Lords got there. MR: That’s true. JJ: And it got cleaned up. MR: And that corner got cleaned up, that’s true. JJ: So the Young Lords were able to clean up a drug hot spot, and what did they do? How did they do that? 48 �MR: [01:10:00] Just by being there. JJ: Just by being there, talking to the people. MR: Exactly. JJ: You were doing it with Bickerdike, (inaudible). MR: Yes, and a friend of mine, a coworker of mine and I had a block club on Rockwell and LeMoyne, between Rockwell and LeMoyne, Rockwell and North Avenue. We decided to have a big block party, so we went and we spoke to the guys in the area because regardless to what, they have a lot of control in the community. The gangs do have a lot of control in the community. They’re one of the powers that you have to deal with a lot of times, one of the first. So we went and we spoke to them and we asked them -- JJ: The gang members. MR: Yeah, we met with them, and -- JJ: So like the same work you were doing with the Young Lords. MR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Yeah, ’cause we had block parties too. MR: Oh, I remember. I remember. [01:11:00] So we had a big block party on the weekend of the Puerto Rican parade. The guys even cooked. I mean, you know, I was happy to get them not to -- we asked no violence, no dealing on that day, and this guy tells me, “Yeah, well, people are bringing food. I’ll make some macaroni and cheese.” And I said, “You don’t know how to make macaroni and cheese.” Dude brought a pan like this and said, “Here.” I tasted it. It was good. Kids played and rode their bikes. We had organizations with information there 49 �about community resources and it was a really nice block party. We heard about it even from the cops for months, for years. JJ: What was the name of this gang? Do you remember? MR: The Ds. The Disciples. JJ: These were the Disciples? Okay. Okay. So the Disciples were doing macaroni and cheese and everything? They were pretty good? MR: Yeah, and they were all out there with their kids and their family. It was just a great [01:12:00] time. Years later, still even the cops talked about it at the CAPS meeting. JJ: Meaning it was good? MR: Yeah. Yeah. There were no problems and no issues. Whatever happened the next couple of days -- JJ: And so that was just kind of showing a little respect for them because they lived in that neighborhood. MR: Exactly. JJ: So that was another factor you had to deal with. You didn’t call it a factor. You called it something else, another component, or something. MR: Yeah. One of the powers in the community. JJ: One of the powers of the community. MR: Yeah, we went to them first, and then we went -- we even had -- JJ: So you went to the gangs first. MR: And the people that lived in the area. Everything else was a lot easier. 50 �JJ: Because they were really controlling that area anyway, so it was like going to another country and saying, “Here. You’re the leaders. We’re gonna respect you.” MR: Right. JJ: And that’s some of the stuff that the Young Lords -- met with the Eagles, the Latin Eagles. MR: And I believe that’s where I learned that, you know. JJ: From the Young [01:13:00] Lords? Okay. MR: That that’s what you had to do. I knew where to go first, and they were the first ones we had to talk to. JJ: Okay. All right. MR: Then we did a lot on housing. I think this one has a lot of the actions. This was our first action. JJ: Okay, you wanna show that to the camera? Show the camera. MR: Okay. JJ: Show that. I want to make copies of the pictures. MR: Yeah. This was our first action when I worked with the -- JJ: I think you have to lift it up. MR: Maybe I’ll just show you the pictures. JJ: Just show one. MR: Yeah. This was my first action when I worked with the Affordable Housing Committee on Bickerdike. JJ: Hold on, hold on, hold on. Okay, no leave it right there. 51 �MR: Okay. And my oldest daughter came on this action with me. She’s in some of the pictures, Jasmine. JJ: Okay. All right. MR: And then -- [01:14:00] good to see some of my leaders here. I have pictures -- JJ: We’ll show more. MR: Okay, of this? Okay, I’ll show you my daughter, and then you’ll get copies of it. JJ: Okay. Hold on, hold on, hold on. MR: My daughter’s the one on the bottom. JJ: On the right? Okay. MR: Right here, yeah. JJ: Right here. That’s your daughter? MR: Uh-huh, that’s my oldest daughter. JJ: Okay. All right. MR: I also did a fundraiser. We had a group that is called the Residents Council and we had a family holiday dinner, an event called a family holiday dinner. I have pictures of that as well. To raise funds for the holiday dinner or for family day, we would have a Mother’s Day [Dusty?] Dance. JJ: A Mother’s Day Dusty? MR: Yes. JJ: We don’t call that oldies but goodies. We call them dusties. MR: No, dusty dance. Rusty dusty sometimes. I was able to get this [01:15:00] guy that I knew from the North Side. [Nando?] is his name. He was a DJ. And since he started DJing, he DJed most of the events for Bickerdike after that. So I 52 �thought that was a good thing, at least for him. But we would dress up, and of course, we’d say ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s, but people come in anything, really crazy outfits. One time we had a bachelor auction and that was fun, interesting. What happened afterwards too, but I won’t go into that. (laughter) Some interesting -JJ: I mean, you can say generally. MR: Oh, no, I can’t say generally. JJ: You’ve got me (inaudible). MR: Yeah, when we turn off the camera. But, yeah, that was a lot of fun and pretty successful. JJ: What, you raised a lot of money? [01:16:00] Like a dollar each or two dollars? MR: No, tickets were maybe like five dollars, so we’d sell the tickets cheap. We were able to have an agreement with the liquor store, so we got high-end liquor, and the drinks were cheap. You had to pay for everything but it was really cheap. So we made a lot of money because people knew [we were here?]. JJ: And then you were able to return the bottles you didn’t use or something? MR: Yeah, we did that, and we just got deals on the liquor. JJ: And in the halls. MR: And donations. We had it at that hall that’s on Belmont and California. It’s not there anymore. I think they closed. Michelle’s Ballroom. We had several there. Really nice place. We had some at a couple other places, this place on North Avenue. JJ: No fights, none of that? MR: Huh? 53 �JJ: No fights? MR: No, never on any of our Dusty Dance, never. Nope, everyone came in peace to have a good time. They’d leave wasted, and after a few [01:17:00] of them, we’d have coffee to try and wake them up because we were concerned about people who were driving home and couldn’t even walk. So some people, we kept keys or drove them home. We’d stop selling liquor at a certain time so they could sober up, but a lot of fun. Mother’s Day Dusty Dance was a lot of fun. JJ: And are you working with Bickerdike now? MR: No, no, I’m not. But I had 10 years with them. It was good work. A lot of leaders. I still have relationships with a lot of leaders in some organizations that I worked with. It was for the most part a very good experience. I learned a lot there. JJ: The only thing I haven’t asked you was the alderman campaign. Were you involved with that at all? MR: With yours? JJ: The Manny alderman campaign? MR: Yes. JJ: What do you remember about that? Because one of the offices was a Young Lords office, right? MR: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that’s when we worked with Slim with the Campaign for Community [01:18:00] Control. JJ: Walter Slim Coleman? 54 �MR: Yes. He’s a minister now, and he’s married to Emma Lozano. He works on immigration issues mostly now. JJ: Right, immigrants rights issue, right. MR: Their church is on Division, I believe. JJ: (inaudible). MR: Exactly, yeah. JJ: The church is there, United Methodist church, yeah. MR: Yes. JJ: Actually he was one of the best men at my wedding. MR: Oh, yeah? (laughter) JJ: So [that was back then?]. Emma came later. MR: Yes. That’s where I learned to work on campaigns. I learned a lot. JJ: With the Young Lords? MR: Yes. Yes, and, you know, canvassing and talking to people about -- JJ: Door to door? MR: Exactly. So when I started working in Bickerdike, that was not a problem with me. I knocked on the door and talking to people. JJ: You weren’t afraid to knock on doors. MR: No. And I remember [01:19:00] some of the places we went to on that campaign. I remember one place in particular that we opened the entrance door and there were bugs falling on us. So this stuff over here was nothing. JJ: Roaches. 55 �MR: Yes. Yes. But we got in and we talked to people. I remember a lot of doorknocking. I remember this group that used to yell at us, Chris Cohen’s people. JJ: Chris Cohen, yeah, the guy we were running against. MR: Yeah, and they would yell at us, and sometimes we’d yell back. We’d try to be good. JJ: Yeah, they used to come with a police squad or something. Do you remember that? MR: No, I don’t remember that. I remember, though, police harassment a lot around the office. I remember they’d come and they’d put handcuffs on some of the guys. Not the Latin Eagles or the gang bangers, but the guys that [01:20:00] were doing the work, I remember that they’d handcuff them and they’d be yelling at them. JJ: So they didn’t go to the Latin Eagles. MR: Mm-mm, no, they were after the organizers, the people who were doing the work. JJ: Working on my campaign. MR: Yes. JJ: So they were putting handcuffs and that? MR: Yeah. I remember one time, they tried to arrest Cosmo, but the community was united at that time, people yelling from buildings. “Let him go,” and all other kind of stuff. I remember my mom yelling at cops during that time. We had a lot of community support. Everybody would come out when the cops would come. JJ: [So you got it from the store?], everybody? MR: Everybody would come out. 56 �JJ: The businessmen, the parents, the neighbors, the residents -- MR: Little kids. JJ: -- anytime they would harass the Young Lords, they would come out, or campaign workers. They were Young Lords and campaign workers. MR: I remember one time, they made a raid on one of the apartments in the building [01:21:00] and I remember -- JJ: Because everybody in the apartments were Young Lords. We had a tenant union because everybody was a Young Lord. MR: Yeah. (laughter) JJ: So the owner was our friend too. MR: I remember the crowd that went to the police station and -- JJ: So what happened? What happened that day? You said that they came. MR: They raided an apartment and they arrested -- I think some of the kids in the neighborhood were at a party. I remember Eddie lived upstairs. JJ: Eddie Ramirez. MR: And he came downstairs and they arrested him, yes. JJ: That’s (inaudible) brother, (inaudible) Ramirez’s brother, Eddie. MR: And they arrested him for no reason. So everyone went to the police station. Everybody’s parents. The place was packed. Everybody’s parents, everybody’s wife, brother, and sister. I learned this with Faith, that you walk into a place like you work there, and people don’t stop you. So I just [01:22:00] walked up the stairs, and from the corner of my eyes, I see this cop hitting my brother and I busted in, screaming and yelling. They just (inaudible). 57 �JJ: (inaudible) was Joyce. MR: I know. I know. I learned a lot about Jews. JJ: You just walk in there like you work here. So that was it. MR: I learned that from her. I learned a lot from Faith, a lot. A lot about Jewish people, but a lot about organizing. Yeah, she taught me a lot. JJ: So she was (inaudible) was a Young Lord?. MR: Yes, she was, and very dedicated. Very dedicated, yeah, she was. JJ: So there was Angie and Faith. MR: Yoli, Yolanda. JJ: [Nona?]. MR: I remember Nona, yeah. JJ: [Hank Jazinsky?]. MR: Yes, I remember them. JJ: Of the woman, and Cosmo, and some of the other guys. MR: Cosmo, Eddie, Gamayell, Lucky. I remember Lucky. JJ: [01:23:00] Chavez, Luis Chavez was there. MR: Yes, I remember him too. I remember working with the immigrant farmers. No grapes or lettuce, remember, and the rally. JJ: The farm workers were working with us, yeah. MR: And the rally, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) farm worker union, yeah. The rally where? MR: What was that? 58 �JJ: The Plaza Theatre, that one? We had another rally on Anderson. There was one too. MR: It was in a theater. JJ: Oh, in a theater. I think it was the Plaza Theatre at that time, up north. MR: I remember I met a gentleman, Chavez. JJ: Plaza International or something like that. MR: I remember telling people, “Don’t buy grapes or lettuce.” And they’re not buying lettuce and grapes, and I didn’t buy lettuce and grapes for a long time. I think just a few years ago, I started. JJ: Yeah, we did some work when we would go to the stores on Saturday mornings and take them out, [01:24:00] based on the store. They would take them out because we would put (inaudible) with the farm workers. So they worked with us. MR: Sesa Chavez. JJ: Sesa Chavez’s group, yeah. That was his group. MR: Yes. But I learned a lot. I believe that’s part of the reason I was hired at Bickerdike when they heard. Well, through [cans?], when I was hired as a VISTA volunteer. They had a lot of respect for the work of the Young Lords. JJ: Bickerdike also worked with the West Town Concerned Citizens Coalition, and we worked with them too. MR: Yeah, I know, before -- JJ: So they learned a lot of stuff from us. We learned from them, back and forth. Back and forth. So that was good. That’s good that you worked with them then. 59 �Okay, to finish it up a little bit, let me just say this. What do you think the most important thing you want people to -- in terms of remembering that you feel is important, remembering [01:25:00] your work. MR: My work? I think people need to realize that they have a voice, that public officials are accountable to us because we put them in office and we should make them do what we need them to do. That’s about it. END OF VIDEO FILE 60 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/edc3e851e94354f81b4fdd0ee3074a76.mp4 20089aaf20ae56ca2e2599a0cd535326 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry María Romero vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Romero_Maria Title A name given to the resource María Romero video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Romero, María Description An account of the resource María Romero first joined the Young Lords on Wilton and Grace Streets. She was recruited by then Angie Lind-Rizzo (later Angie Adorno) and the other Young Lord women members. It was 1973 and the Young Lords were emerging from two long years of being completely underground, or inoperative publicly as a human rights organization. There were no longer remnants of the Young Lords Movement left in the Lincoln Park neighborhood that gave birth to them in 1968. The Lincoln Park neighborhood had been cleaned out of Puerto Ricans and the poor, in just a few years, by city hall and the Lincoln Park Neighborhood Association. A directive was given by the leadership for the Young Lords members to move and to establish themselves as a base of operations in the Lakeview Neighborhood, at Wilton and Grace Streets. Many Young Lords moved there with their families. Prior to that, a group of about 25 Young Lords had moved to a rural, rented farm near Tomah, Wisconsin. The farm camp was called a “Training School,” and their sole purpose for their camp was to train new Young Lord’s leaders who would step in and lead the Young Lords. Repression had hit extremely hard within the Lincoln Park Movement, splitting it in several directions. This was aided by pending trials of several Young Lords leaders and the still unsolved murders of United Methodist Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia, of the Young Lords People’s Church. Rainbow Coalition leader of the Black Panther Party, Fred Hampton, and Mark Clark were also assassinated in a raid organized by the States Attorney. The Lincoln Park Movement had seized to exist. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, who was then in hiding from the police after being sentenced to one year in Cook County Jail and who had 17 more felony indictments still pending, called for the organizing of a training school in a secluded farm near Tomah, Wisconsin. After members received their training in the farm camp for one and a half years, it was decided that Mr. Jiménez would voluntarily turn himself in, begin serving the year and start to fight the remaining cases which included bond jumping and many trumped up charges of mob actions for demonstrations. The Young Lords would raise his bond, hire attorneys, and then switch their organizing in Lakeview and Uptown where many of the Puerto Ricans of Lincoln Park had moved. They had also moved to Wicker Park and Humboldt Park but the Young Lords wanted to concentrate their forces. If this move was not done, the movement started in Lincoln Park would completely collapse. After serving the year, Mr. Jiménez announced his Aldermanic Campaign for the 46th Ward, as an Independent Democrat. He would use the election not as an electoral revolution but, “as an organizing vehicle for change.” Among other things the campaign would focus on Mayor Daley’s forced displacement of the Puerto Rican Community from the near lakefront and near downtown areas of the city. It not only boldly opposed the banks, the developers, the neighborhood associations but implicated Mayor Richard J. Daley in urban renewal plans that clearly were racist, being utilized to cleanse these areas of lower income minorities. Because of this, María Romero volunteered to serve as Young Lords Office Coordinator. It was Ms. Romero’s job to pass out assignments and to provide support and referrals for services for residents of that Lakeview area of Wilton and Grace. She herself had lived in Lincoln Park but had grown up in Lakeview. There most of the Puerto Ricans knew her family, as her father was a businessman, who for years had owned several Latino botanicas, or stores that sell religious potions and candles of saints, and provide consultation services. Ms. Romero was instrumental in getting a large amount of persons registered to vote. The Jiménez Aldermanic Campaign received 39% of the vote on the first attempt. It was not the 51% needed, but it was still victorious in uniting the community and beginning to expose the prejudice behind displacement. It also opened wide the doors for future Latino political candidates. As Ms. Romero moved west to Humboldt Park she was hired as a community organizer for Bickerdike, a non - profit development corporation. She used her Young Lords organizing skills and passion to promote their mission of being, deeply dedicated to preserving the ethnic and cultural character of their neighborhoods, providing quality affordable housing, preserving jobs, advocating for resources and struggling against gentrification and displacement. One of the main issues that Ms. Romero advocated for was the “Chicago Affordable Set Aside.” Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abb595cb9058916130e50fd3ff7560f3.m4v 544228da9118372f9d694375d6f64b49 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a07a40f3bf0d89818558eb26b56a2601.pdf d0b8d98ab6e36d265e1471bf33133e1c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Gelmer Romeyn World War II 1 hour 1 minute 12 seconds (00:00:47) Early Life -Born on March 24, 1923 in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Moved to Zuni, New Mexico when he was two years old -Started school at an Indian Reservation Mission School -Transferred to a public school in Zuni -One-room schoolhouse -Teacher wasn't friendly -On his first day he tried to run away from school -8th grade student was sent out to get him back -After a while he adjusted to school -Rode to school in an old truck -Still had to walk to a place where he could pick up the truck -Remembers the beginning of the Great Depression -Mother died as a result of childbirth in June 1929 -Father sent him and his baby sister back to Grand Rapids in June 1929 -Lived with grandparents in Grand Rapids -Remembers milkmen, icemen, hucksters, street cars, and horse-drawn garbage carts -During the Great Depression had to be conscious about money -Never felt poor or like they went without enough necessities -Father came to Grand Rapids in 1932 -Remembers the election between Hoover and Roosevelt -Father supported Hoover -Remembers New Deal programs like the WPA, CCC, and the Civilian Training Corps -He joined the Civilian Training Corps in high school -Received training at Camp Custer, Michigan -Attended Ottawa Hills High School -Transferred to South High School -Graduated from there in 1941 (00:08:43) Start of the War -In October 1940 the 126th Infantry Regiment of the 32nd Infantry Division was federalized -Sent to Louisiana for training -Michigan State Troops were created to fill the void after the National Guard left -He and his father joined the Michigan State Troops -Remembers December 7, 1941 -Came home after a date and didn't know that Pearl Harbor had been attacked -Stepmother told him that he had to go to the Grand Rapids Airport immediately -He and his father pulled guard duty that night -Didn't realize the severity of the attack on Pearl Harbor -He was attending Grand Rapids Junior College (now Community College) when the war began -Pulled guard duty at the airport four days of the week -College was lenient and understood that he had a job to do �(00:10:51) Enlisting in the Army Air Force -Enlisted in the Army Air Force for pilot training -His father, a World War I veteran, was not pleased with Gelmer's decision -Enlisted in November 1942 -Remembers sitting in physics class and being told he had a letter from Washington D.C. -Had been called to service -Said goodbye to his classmates and left class (00�:12:22) Basic Training & College Training -Boarded a train in Grand Rapids, went to Chicago, then to Miami Beach, Florida -Reported in February 1943 -Quartered in the Metropol Hotel in Miami Beach -Basic training lasted 30 days -Originally needed two years of college to be a pilot -Army relaxed the requirement and sent cadets to colleges to fulfill that requirement -He went to Duquesne University in Pittsburgh as part of the College Training Detachment -Started as a private getting paid $21 a month -Had prior military experience and made the mistake of correcting an instructor -Wore regular Army uniforms in Florida -Took a troop train to Pittsburgh -Dirty, slow moving, and smokey -Had civilian teachers at Duquesne University -Took math, English, and science courses and received further military training -Pittsburgh welcomed military personnel -Went to a Presbyterian church and met an old, wealthy widow -She invited him to Easter dinner -After that he visited her whenever he had a weekend off -She threw a going away party for him and the other cadets -He stayed in touch with her after he went overseas -Spent five months at Duquesne University (00:18:14) Pilot Classification -Sent to a Classification Center in Nashville, Tennessee -Took tests and went through a psychological evaluation -Options were to be a pilot, bombardier, or navigator -He was selected for pilot training (00:19:25) Pre-Flight Training -Sent to Maxwell Field, Alabama for Pre-Flight Training -More classroom work -He was made a cadet officer -Responsible for leading other cadets on inspections -Remember a cadet being kicked out of Pre-Flight Training for cheating on a test -Got gigged for minor infractions -For example, not having shoes shined or lying about having his shoes shined (00:22:08) Basic Flight Training -After Pre-Flight Training he progressed to Basic Flight Training -Trained with the Stearman, a biplane -Flew with an instructor for eight hours then flew solo -Had a civilian instructor that had been a barnstormer before the war -Remembers on one training flight the instructor fell out of the plane -Fortunately, he had a parachute �-Sent to Shaw Field, South Carolina where he trained with the BT-13 Valiant -Had radios on the BT-13 -Remembers one flight instructor that used a lot of profanity -He requested the instructor mind his language -Prompted the instructor to swear even more -On one training flight the engine cut out -He thought it was the instructor doing a test -Gelmer did the proper procedures and got the engine running again -When they landed he realized it had been a mechanical problem -After that, the instructor swore less around him (00:27:09) Advanced Flight Training -Sent to Moody Field, Georgia for Advanced Flight Training -Trained with the AT-10, a twin-engine aircraft -Remembers a plane hitting a tree on landing and resulting in a crash -The cadet was killed, but the instructor survived -Graduated on May 22, 1944 -Commissioned as a 2nd lieutenant and was now a pilot -Received leave and spent two weeks in Grand Rapids (00:29:15) Transition School -Originally assigned to be a Tactical Officer training cadets -Requested a different assignment Sent to St. Joseph, Missouri for Transition School -Trained for 30 days on the C-47 transport plane (00:29:58) Operating out of Casablanca -Went to Miami Beach and flew to Casablanca, Morocco -Entirely new and different culture -Billeted at the airport -Note: Most likely Nouasseur Air Base -Spent six months in Casablanca -Arrived in August 1944 during the invasion of southern France -Flew to Naples and Rome on supply missions -Moving personnel and cargo -Brought a platoon of Women's Army Corps personnel and USO performers to Italy -On one mission he stopped in Benghazi, Libya -Found a British motorcycle in a dump and brought it back to Casablanca -Rode it for a while then his commander forbade it -Continued to ride it until he was caught -Saw USO Shows in Casablanca -Saw Frank Sinatra perform -Met him in the Officers' Club -Flew a brigadier general on one mission (00:35:29) Italian Prisoners of War -Had Italian prisoners of war held near Casablanca -Did menial work at the barracks -Italian prisoners knew that the C-47s flew supply missions to Italy -Found an Italian prisoner trying to catch a ride to Italy on his C-47 -Understood why the man wanted to go home (00:37:36) End of the War -He was transferred to Oran, Algeria �-Went to First Pilot School in Marrakesh, Morocco before going to Oran -He was in Oran on May 8, 1945 when Germany surrendered -Sent to First Pilot School in Cairo, Egypt to train on the C-46 transport plane -Hot and unpleasant training -Didn't like the C-46 -Found it unsophisticated -Only flew it in training -Returned to Oran -Had plans to go to the China-Burma-India Theater -Japan surrendered before he went out -Stayed in Oran -Had a paternal grandfather living in the Netherlands -Given a ten day temporary assignment to Brussels so he could visit his grandfather -Traveled to Enschede, Netherlands -Met his uncle and his paternal grandfather for the first time -Spent four days there exploring the area -The Dutch had no use for the Germans -The Dutch in the north appreciated the British because they liberated the area (00:42:50) Coming Home & End of Service -Returned to North Africa and originally planned on flying a plane back to the United States -He had spent 26 days in Europe, not the approved ten days -Orders were canceled and he had to sail back to the United States -Spent Christmas and New Year's Eve on the ship -He was quartered in the center of the ship, so he didn't get seasick -Left North Africa in December 1945 -Landed at Newport News, Virginia -Discharged there -Took a bus back to Grand Rapids -He was technically on active duty until February 1946 (00:44:57) Army Air Force Reserve & National Guard Service -Stayed in the Army Air Force Reserve -Part of the unit at Grand Rapids aiport -Flew AT-6 aircraft -Flew up to McBain, Michigan to visit relatives -Reserve unit was transferred to Selfridge Field near Detroit -Stayed in the Reserve for a year after that, then left -Joined the National Guard as a 1st lieutenant in the infantry -Went to Fort Benning, Georgia for training -Stayed in for two years (00:46:50) Life after the War Pt. 1 -Returned to college -Got into business in Benton Harbor, Michigan selling prefabricated houses -Did that for two years -Got a job with a law office as an investigator -Got a job with an insurance company as a claims manager -Started his own business as a claims manager (00:47:53) Reflections on Service -Broadened his worldview -Didn't fly after getting out of the Army Air Force Reserve �(00:49:20) Life after the War Pt. 2 -Married after meeting his wife in a Christian singles club -Had two daughters -One of his daughters enlisted in the Marines -First to experience “the Crucible” (marching 58 miles in 48 hours) -Stayed in for nearly three years -Medically discharged due to leg problems Interview ends at 52:08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RomeynG0701V Title A name given to the resource Romeyn, Gelmer W (Interview outline and video), 2005 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-04-17 Description An account of the resource Gelmer Romeyn was born on March 24, 1923 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In the early 1940s he joined the Michigan State Troops (a state defense force) and in November 1942 he enlisted in the Army Air Force. He reported for basic training at Miami Beach, Florida in February 1943 then received college training at Duquesne University, Pennsylvania. He was classified as a pilot and received flight training at Maxwell Field, Alabama Shaw Field, South Carolina and Moody Field, Georgia. He was commissioned as a 2nd lieutenant and a pilot on May 22, 1944. He trained on the C-47 transport plane. He spent six months in Casablanca, Morocco flying transport missions to Italy. He was transferred to Oran, Algeria for the remainder of his time overseas. He returned to the United States in December 1945. He was discharged at Newport News, Virginia and was released from active duty in February 1946. Gelmer remained in the Army Air Force Reserve and then served with the National Guard as a 1st lieutenant for two years. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Romeyn, Gelmer Willis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins, Charles (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8dc5c24db8c2e95dcab02bb7b857ef74.mp4 79b17dd4bd4ce989d9bcb53376b303ef https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b68eb162e7e775b635ff7d1e4f6caba2.pdf 92dda03a15b474dc2c3a8417c53148af PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Bob Romig Vietnam War 1 hour 30 minutes 4 seconds (00:00:13) Early Life -Born in Dennison, Ohio -Grew up in Tuscarawas, Ohio -His father was a high school teacher -His mother was a librarian -He graduated from high school Tuscarawas in 1963 (00:01:12) College & Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) -He began attending college at Ohio State University in the summer of 1963 -Lived in a travel trailer with his father who was also going to Ohio State -Completing his master’s degree -Required to pick one of two options: take advanced calculus, or join the ROTC -Coming from a rural community he decided to enlist in the ROTC -There was a drill day every Monday through the summer and school year -The first time he heard Vietnam mentioned was on the drill field -There was a two year requirement for ROTC, and the next two years were voluntary -If you stayed on you could avoid being drafted and you were paid -Vietnam was beginning to get more serious -Decided that being an officer would give him some more authority and survivability -Wanted to go into a combat arm, specifically the infantry -Feels that there was some machismo that influenced that decision at the time -The ROTC training consisted of military history and tactics -Learning about WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the Cuban Missile Crisis -Taught some of the basics of small unit tactics -There was also physical training that consisted of marching and drills -On May Day (May 1) there was an annual parade for the ROTC on campus -During his senior year he began to notice anti-war and anti-military protests -During his swearing into the Army he was jeered at and mocked by protestors -Stayed professional and ignored it -During the summer between junior and senior year went to ROTC “summer camp” -Went to Fort Indiantown, Pennsylvania for that -Further training concerning maneuvers and tactics -Trained with other ROTC cadets -He graduated from Ohio State and was commissioned as a 2nd lieutenant in 1967 -Attended Ohio State for another year attempting to get his Master of Business Administration -He was not able to complete it and decided to leave college in 1968 (00:08:50) Officer Training and Preparing for Vietnam -Sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky initially -Sent to Infantry Officer Basic Training at Fort Benning, Georgia -Worked with noncommissioned officers (sergeants) that had been to Vietnam �-They stressed the importance of learning things if they wanted to survive -Learned how to direct artillery and call in air strikes -More training with small unit tactics -By now there wasn’t much focus on being disciplined like in regular basic training -After completing Officer Basic Training he took Airborne Training at Fort Benning -Learned how to parachute out of a plane and make a successful landing -Learned how to survive a landing in various locations (flat, mountains, swamps) -Airborne Training lasted three weeks -It was a completely voluntary course -From Fort Benning he was sent to Panama for Jungle Training -The training counted towards his time in Vietnam -Lasted one month -Took one month off the time that he would be in Vietnam -The training was focused on jungle tactics -Moving in the jungle, setting up a camp, and surviving that environment -Also taught about what to expect in the jungles of Vietnam -Be prepared for the heat, the humidity, etc. -Returned to Fort Knox, Kentucky for training command -Learning what it’s like to lead troops outside of a formal training environment -He was made a supply officer -Overseeing the provision of equipment and clothing to new recruits -Didn’t experience leading infantry before being sent to Vietnam (00:15:35) Deployment to Vietnam -Deployed to Vietnam in fall 1969 -He didn’t have a strong sense of what was going on in Vietnam -Knew that the Tet Offensive had happened -Knew that the situation in Vietnam was serious -Just didn’t realize how serious it was -In Officer Basic Training there had been a large focus on surviving and leading in Vietnam -He didn’t receive any cultural awareness courses before going to Vietnam -He was given a leave home and visited his wife in Columbus, Ohio -Spent about one month home with her -From Columbus flew to San Francisco, California and flew out of San Francisco -Stopped at a Pacific Island military installation on the way to Vietnam to refuel (00:18:41) Arrival in Vietnam -Landed at Tan Son Nhut, South Vietnam -Before landing he saw mortar craters on the ground around the base -Told that the communists had been mortaring the base for a while -Immediately made him concerned about the safety of himself and others -Heard stories about the suicidal raids carried out by the Viet Cong -Placed on cattle trucks and taken north Camp Evans -Remembers that it was a long drive -Assigned to Delta Company of the 2nd of the 506th of the 101st Airborne Division -The battalion was in the field when he arrived -Later took a helicopter out to his unit in the field -They were operating west of Camp Evans, and east of the A Shau Valley �-During his time on Camp Evans he worked with the rear elements -Elements of the battalion were in the rear and needed a commander -There were functional wounded, one company (Echo), and support units at Evans -Also in charge of organizing perimeter security -Stayed at Camp Evans for a month before being sent to the field -He was going to relieve the leader of 1st Platoon of Delta Company -As an officer he had had his own room at Camp Evans (00:26:27) Joining 1st Platoon -He was slowly, but surely, indoctrinated into the 101st Airborne Division -They were operating in an extremely cold area for Vietnam -Cold enough to require insulated clothing -Had to adjust to being in the cold again after being warm for a month -Learned later on that some soldiers had to be treated for hypothermia and frostbite -The battalion was basically maneuvering between two main locations -Primary mission was to hunt and kill enemy forces in the area -Secondary mission was to establish an American presence in the area -Insure that the communists stayed away from the A Shau Valley -Tertiary mission was to search for enemy bunker complexes and supply caches -During his time there they found sophisticated underground bases -Found elephant dung on the trails -Meant the Vietnamese were moving large amounts of equipment -Stayed in the field with his unit for the majority of the 120 day patrol -He was sent to a reconnaissance platoon in May 1970 (00:31:53) Leadership and Relationship with Soldiers -He was still in the field when Captain Rollison joined his company -He was a professional, gung ho, and aggressive leader -He was also incredibly disciplined when it came to establishing defenses -He was yelled at the worst during the Army by Captain Rollison -He had walked point during a patrol which was severely compromising -Basically, if the officer died first then the rest of the unit was dead too -When he was assigned to lead 1st platoon his first goal in the field was to establish location -The original platoon leader had them marked as being in the completely wrong area -Bob’s job was then to find out where they really were -When he joined the 1st platoon he was told by an enlisted man there would be no drug problems -Drug use didn’t become a problem until later in 1970 -He assumed authority, but did not do so without consulting with the sergeants first -Knew that the sergeants would have excellent advice for leading in Vietnam -Knew that mutual respect would be key to survival -Learned to listen to advice more than give orders -He worked with a good group of sergeants -Experience and knowledgeable soldiers -Remembers one sergeant who was particularly effective -Charged after a Viet Cong that was trying to set off a booby trap -Managed to save the platoon from being killed (00:39:33) Patrols before Ripcord -The area they were patrolling was called the Flatlands �-He didn’t really encounter much significant enemy contact during this time -Occasionally rotated back to Camp Evans with his unit (00:40:20) Working around Ripcord -He was not involved with the initial assault to establish Firebase Ripcord in March 1970 -Operated in the area around Ripcord and worked off of other firebases in the immediate area -The terrain was heavy jungle and mountainous -Relied on old, often inaccurate, French maps -Always managed to keep the high ground and stay off of the trails -As a result they had to cut their own trails through the jungle -Encountered some enemy forces -Spent the majority of their time setting up ambushes to intercept the enemy -There were a few short, minor firefights -They never got ambushed -Remembers that the North Vietnamese operated in small, quick groups (00:44:50) Awareness of the War’s Progress -He wasn’t really able to see the progress of the war on a macro scale -Couldn’t even see how the Ripcord Campaign was going on a large scale -His focus was on the ground level and immediate issues that impacted him and his men -Setting up camp for the night, laying down defenses, digging foxholes, resupply, etc. (00:45:29) Operating in the Field -Stayed in the field for long periods of time -During resupplies each soldier was given a case of C rations to live off of -Got resupplied via helicopter every three or four days -Part of the resupply was also being given extra ammunition and explosives -If the radio failed had to rely on primitive means to signal helicopters -Remembers once having to use a signal mirror to flag down a helicopter -His platoon would operate independently -Platoon’s strength was three squads (or roughly twenty four men) (00:48:50) Transfer to Recon Platoon -Transferred to recon platoon in May 1970 -Part of the duty was pulling security on Firebase Ripcord -Assigned a certain area to defend -Given an assigned foxhole to stay in on the perimeter -Expected to continuously improve the perimeter’s defense -Digging deeper foxholes or laying down thicker wire -Remembers being in the field on a hilltop watching the Vietnamese firing mortars -Would call in artillery on the position and then the soldier would reappear -Eventually called in an airstrike which vaporized the enemy position -Life on Ripcord was fairly routine -Operated in recon teams made up of six to nine soldiers -Received orders directly from Colonel Lucas on where to go and what to do -While in the field maintained a very small perimeter -Able to move much quieter while in the recon teams (00:55:33) Enemy Contact while in Recon Platoon -If one team ran into the enemy other teams would be called in to assist -Remembers one instance where a recon team had a wounded team member �-Helicopter was called in to extract the wounded man and was shot down - Bob’s team was then called in to extract the bodies -That was his most difficult experience while in Vietnam -Had to carry out the dead soldiers on their backs -If you had to fight you were allowed to fight back -Remembers one instance where his team was surrounded by the Vietnamese -In the morning saw a Vietnamese soldier; shot and killed him -The enemy returned fire on their position -Bob was grazed by two bullets, one of which could have killed him -Believes that it had been a small force that they engaged -Had it been any bigger they would have all been dead -For the most part recon teams were encouraged not to engage the enemy (01:02:45) Rotations -While with the recon team he would get rotated back to Camp Evans -Never stayed at Camp Evans long though -If a recon team was going into the field he would go into the field too (01:03:40) Battle of Firebase Ripcord -He kept track of the events that happened on Firebase Ripcord during the battle -He was operating around Ripcord during the time of the siege -Routinely found signs of enemy activity -As the battle’s intensity increase, so did the enemy’s activity -He was in the field when Ripcord was evacuated and destroyed by the B-52 bombing raid (01:06:53) Assignment Post-Ripcord -After Ripcord was abandoned the focus was shifted to the area east of where Ripcord had been -He was reassigned to Camp Evans as the company commander of Echo Company -Reconnaissance and mortar teams -They also had a landing zone clearing team that cleared LZs with plastic explosives -After his reassignment there was less recon work to be done -Stayed at Camp Evans for the most part -Given his own quarters while at Camp Evans -Stayed at Camp Evans from August 1970 to early fall 1970 -While he was at Camp Evans he was made the officer in charge of guarding the perimeter (01:10:20) Drug Use, Racial Tensions, and Relationship with Vietnamese -While at Camp Evans began to see more widespread drug use -Mostly marijuana, but heroin was starting to become more of an issue -Drug use became more prevalent by late 1970, especially in the rear -He had to make sure that soldiers were awake that were supposed to be guarding the perimeter -Pot would make them fall asleep, as well as paranoid, which was dangerous -In general drug use caused fairly minor discipline issues -He saw racial tensions while in Vietnam both in the rear and in the field -There were some disciplinary issues because of this -There was animosity from blacks towards whites and vice versa -Civilians would come and work at Camp Evans during the day, but leave by nightfall -There were outlying villages around Camp Evans, but men were not allowed to go there (01:13:58) R&R in Hawaii -Went to Hawaii for an R&R in August 1970 �-His wife was able to meet him while in Hawaii -After his R&R it was incredibly difficult to return to Vietnam (01:15:27) Coming Home -He didn’t count the days, but knew when his deployment would come to an end -At the end of his tour his men gave him a lighter with the Screaming Eagle etched into it -Went to Da Nang, South Vietnam and flew to Seattle, Washington -Paid for first class and flew home to Columbus, Ohio -While on the flight home he was playing solitaire and was told he was being noisy -Realized later on that it was probably harassment because he was a soldier -While travelling didn’t see any anti-war protestors in the airports (01:17:45) End of Service -Given a leave home for a short amount of time -Final assignment was at Fort Bragg, North Carolina -He was able to get an apartment near Fort Bragg so he could live with his wife -His assignment was to work in supply -Part of that was being responsible for reviewing reports of lost equipment -Determining if lost equipment was legitimately or illegitimately lost -Remembers one soldier trading a rifle for sex with a rural girl -If he reenlisted he would be promoted to captain and could go into the Special Forces -Reenlisting would also mean a second tour in Vietnam -Decided not to reenlist -Got discharged from the Army at Fort Bragg (01:20:56) Life after the Army -Went back to Ohio and applied to become a County Extension Agent -During the interview he was asked about what Vietnam had been like -Essentially declined to answer -Worked as a County Extension Agent for five years before going back to college -Went back to Ohio State University to get his master’s degree -Decided to stay in to get his doctorate -Got a job at the Agricultural Technical Institute at Ohio State University -Taught the forest products program -Eventually got into the research department for natural resources -Retired from Ohio State University in 2002 after thirty five years -Went to the Ohio Forestry Association and became the executive director there -In 2007 (or 2008) he suffered a traumatic head injury after a fall at home -For eight (or nine) months his wife had to drive him around (01:24:00) Coping with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder -During a trip to Washington D.C. in 1998 he visited the Vietnam War Memorial -Broke down in tears and wouldn’t talk about why -After the Washington D.C. trip he got involved with a local veterans’ group -Primary focus was helping veterans cope with trauma from Vietnam -Learned about PTSD and the symptoms to look for -Learned that he, and all other veterans, had to “talk their way out of Vietnam” -Bring the experiences to the surface, talk about them, and lay them to rest (01:27:10) Reflections on Service -From serving in the Army and in Vietnam he has great respect for the men he served with �-Learned that paying attention to even minor details can be the difference between life and death -If you aren’t constantly prepared for any eventuality bad things can happen � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RomigR1684V Title A name given to the resource Romig, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-10-10 Description An account of the resource Bob Romig was born and raised in Ohio, attended Ohio State University and completed the ROTC program there, receiving his commission in the Army in 1967. He was allowed to attend graduate school for a year, and then took infantry officer training and went to jump school, then jungle training in Panama and supply officer training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. In the fall of 1969 he was deployed to Vietnam and was sent to Camp Evans and was assigned to 1st Platoon of Delta Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 506th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. From the time he arrived until May 1970 he patrolled with Delta Company in the Flatlands and in the area around what would become Firebase Ripcord. In May 1970 he was reassigned to a reconnaissance platoon of Echo Company which was based on Firebase Ripcord. After the fall of Firebase Ripcord on July 23, 1970 he and Echo Company were sent to Camp Evans to serve as a rear unit there providing security and still going out on recon patrols. In the fall of 1970 he returned home and completed his service in the Army as a supply officer at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Romig, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/02a8e5e3b1b2d97a21923f2f21d7c57c.pdf 32ade96cb7c9ff1f49b5d3fff47370ea PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Ken Rondeau (4:33) Background Information (00:10)       Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1962. (00:11) Both his mother and father were from Wisconsin. His father worked as a plant superintendent and ran an orchard. (00:17) He joined the Michigan National Guard. (00:44) Ken was training to be an electrician before going into the military. (00:47) He had grandfathers and an uncle who had already served in the military. His oldest brother served in the Navy as well. (1:00) Ken joined the National Guard to make some extra money as well as to serve his country. (1:25) Basic Training (1:33)    He was flown from Grand Rapids, Michigan, to South Carolina. He was then sent by us to Fort Benning, Georgia. (1:35) There was much emphasis placed on physical conditioning. (1:56) 2 days before graduation, one of Ken’s fellow trainees had tried to take home some of the lizards that lived on the base in his ammo pouch. (2:10) Service in the National Guard (2:56)    Ken served initially as an infantryman. He spent most of his time I the service as a Sergeant for a gun crew in the mortar section. (2:57) Most of his training was geared toward going into Germany in case Russia had attacked Western Europe. (3:19) Operation Desert Storm occurred while he was in the Reserve. (4:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RondeauKT Title A name given to the resource Rondeau, Ken (Interview outline), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rondeau, Ken Description An account of the resource Ken Rondeau, born in Grand Rapids Michigan in 1962, served in the National Guard during the 1980s. During this time Ken served mostly as a sergeant training mortar crews. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rondeau, Brenton (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. National Guard Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/270fe3b5ecab7ea58b65d5eed2baae15.mp4 b66ef2cb1f353c95504b8ccb265b3a71 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d5c3de9f7a65bcc2c802889f4640176.pdf fe55bfe4b28ea13b34794f25e6aec9f2 PDF Text Text GVSU Veteran’s History Project World War II Marcia Rood Interview Total Time: 13:35               (00:20) Her brother served in the Navy during WWII (00:51) Nearly 6 years old when her brother went into the service; it was 1944 when her brother was 18, knew he would be drafted soon (2:00) Father was in the Navy in World War I (2:30) At the train station when they were dropping off her brother, he and the other recruits were being counted off o Switched places with the man next to him so he could end up in the Navy (3:10) House was lonely with her brother gone o Had cousins that had battle experience (3:44) Jimmy (her brother) took basic training at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Illinois o Went to visit him once before they were shipped out o Went to California and then was sent to Philippine Islands (4:10) At this time, they had no telephone o Drove to Ferndale when they knew Jimmy would be calling o By the end of the war they had a telephone in their house – currently lived in Farmington (4:56) Jimmy was in the Philippine Islands when he was injured, then shipped to California o War ended during this time (5:27) Didn’t talk about the war often o Brother’s friend was killed on a ship that was bombed (6:16) Remembers writing letters to her brother while he was away o Sent a family picture to him (7:20) Remembers using rationing stamps to get coffee, sugar, anything that was made of rubber was hard to get o Couldn’t buy a car o These things went towards supporting the war effort (8:03) Saw newsclips at the movies about the war, as well as the radio (8:33) Remembers car breaking down when they went to visit her brother at basic training o Took a train the rest of the way; noticed a lot of servicemen on the train (9:20) Shows letters that her mother saved from Jimmy �   o One of them talks about a friend that was killed (10:13) About her brother’s injury in the Navy o Stationed in Philippines – Subic Bay o Worked on a tugboat o Brought in ships that docked o There was a small cannon on the tugboat that shot lines up the side of the ships o Problems with Japanese snipers on the island o Tried to set a trap for the snipers o Brother’s leg was tangled in a line – ended up getting fractured (12:42) There was still a concern about snipers o Her brother wasn’t in a battle but saw enough of a conflict while he was serving (13:16) Jimmy was in the Navy from the middle of 1944 until the end of 1945 or early 1946 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoodM0702V Title A name given to the resource Rood, Marcia (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rood, Marcia Description An account of the resource Mrs. Rood was being interviewed to talk about her brother Jimmy's time in the Navy during World War II. He served for about a year and a half. He received training at Great Lakes Naval and spent most of his time in the Philippines, where he worked with tugboats in bringing in ships to dock. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Scheidel, Caleb (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3bde243a5c69d39f6504cfbd92529498.mp4 d9bdcc94d2aab7a19ca5db89656b6191 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6259a516c47399f4e14ff32ad40a86b9.pdf 17de74a9283a86dfee2d759e9c85f2f4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Desert Storm Leanne Rooker Length of Interview: 14:27 [not sure who the interviewer is here so using XX as initials. (00:02) XX: What is your maiden name? LR: Leanne Marie Cook XX: Where were you born and raised, Leanne? LR: I was born in Jacksonville, North Carolina, but I was kind of raised in Michigan. I moved to Manistee, and then pretty much raised in Caledonia. XX: Okay. What is your current job? LR: I am a supervisor at the contact center of Foremost Insurance Company. XX: What is your address? LR: 10145 Alaska Avenue, Caledonia Michigan 49316. (00:53) XX: What war did you experience? LR: Desert Storm. Persian Gulf. XX: At the time of this war, were you married? LR: Yes. XX: What was your spouse’s name and his wartime occupation? LR: My spouse’s name was Brian Mitchell Rooker, and he was a Lieutenant in the Navy. XX: When and where were you married to Brian? LR: I married him, Brian, December 27th of 1990. And we were stationed in Norfolk, Virginia, on the Theodore Roosevelt Aircraft Carrier. (01:35) �XX: Did you have any children during the war? LR: Yes. Jake. Morgan was not born until 1994. XX: Where did you live and work during this war? LR: Well, we lived in Norfolk, Virginia and I was a flight attendant with U.S. Airways. During the war. XX: What type of training did you go through for this job? LR: For the flight attendant job? XX: Yes. (02:13) LR: Umm, well, there was quite a bit of training for that job. I went to training in WinstonSalem, North Carolina, for three and a half weeks. Cause I was originally with Piedmont Airlines. And then U.S. Air bought us and I had to go through further training on different aircraft. XX: What did you like or dislike about this job? LR: I loved that job. I loved flying all over the country and seeing the different cities, and you know, and the geographics and the different cultures around the country. And I liked the flexibility that the job gave me. I had quite a bit of time off so it was easy to raise a family, at that point in time. (03:10) XX: How were your children taken care of while you were gone? LR: Well, we pretty much worked it out where, um…I was pretty flexible that when Brian was out to sea, I would be home. Cause he’d be gone a couple of weeks at a time and I would just make that my vacation, or so I’d bunch up all my time and be home with the kids. Otherwise, we had a daycare person who would take Jake during the day, and Brian, actually Mitch, he goes by Mitch, would take Jake to the daycare every day when he’d go off to the ship and then he’d pick him up at the end of the day. (04:00) XX: Were you unionized? LR: Yes. XX: And how did you feel about worker’s unions? �LR: I really didn’t care. What I didn’t like about a union is that it’s one voice. So you don’t really get a raise that’s based on your performance. It’s more that everybody votes it in and so it really doesn’t matter what kind of a job you do. So everybody gets the same raise. I don’t really care for that, but XX: Did you have any other friends or family besides Mitch that did war work, during the war? LR: Family? Or friends? XX: Both. LR: Well, we had a lot of friends, what with Mitch being in the military. We had a lot of friends in the military. Some in the Navy and Mitch’s closest friend was actually in the Marine Corp. so we kind of had that aspect too. My father was active in the Marine Corp but he didn’t see any more time because he had actually served his time for Vietnam, so he didn’t have to go back to do that. (05:15) XX: Okay. How did you feel about the Persian Gulf War? LR: I really didn’t…I really didn’t think it was any of our business to be over there. And then when we didn’t really accomplish what we went there for. And had to go back, obviously, several years later, it was like, what was that all about the first time? And I felt like…I felt like it was more of a personal vendetta with the Bushes then anything else. (05:56) XX: Did you live with your family, or friends and co-workers then, as well? LR: Well, when it first started, I was living at home with my parents. And then Mitch and I got married. And I continued to live at home with my parents until he was due…cause he was deployed right after we got married, and I continued to live with my parents until he was due home. And then, just before he was due home, I moved to Virginia and lived with him. (06:42) XX: What were your friends and families feelings about the war? LR: Well, those in the military, they kind of had a different view on it. It was just a…something they were told to do, so they never questioned what came down. And in a lot of sense, I knew better than to form a big opinion on it, because all that does is frustrate me. So you had to go and it was just what it was. (07:25) XX: How did the war change aspects of your life? Like your job or your daily life? LR: Um, it really didn’t change my daily life, other than my husband wasn’t around. Anymore. Of course, then I had to worry about him. You know, you just follow the news. And I got �involved in all of the wives clubs that I could, the officer’s wives clubs, so that I could kind of be abreast of everything that was going on. Cause back then they didn’t have the internet. They didn’t have cell phones, things like that, so we went months without hearing from him. And then when he would call, it was when he was in port. And most of their ports got cancelled. So it was in a port and maybe you had five minutes to catch up on months of being apart. And at that point, we didn’t have Jake yet, so it was just him and I, so it was okay, but… (08:37) XX: Did you worry our side might not win this war? LR: Absolutely. War is always…you never know what the outcome is going to be in war. XX: Did you know anyone who was killed or wounded during this war? LR: No, not really. I knew somebody that was in an accident, but they end up not really being hurt. Their aircraft, landing on the aircraft carrier, they didn’t catch it right, so it went over. And he went in the water. XX: How did you and your spouse communicate during the war? (09:23) LR: Letters. And that one phone call, that I had mentioned before. XX: All right. Did you feel like you got a good support from the men in the service? LR: I don’t really know what that question… XX: I’ll just skip it then. Did you have areasonable standard of living during the war? LR: Yes. (10:01) XX: Did the war ever have an effect on your mental or physical health? LR: Not really. Other than just really worrying about everybody. And just really not wanting him to go to war. Not wanting him to be on the front line. So I was really happy with him not being on the front line. And I know that most soldiers, they’re trained to be on the front line so they’re not happy if they’re not on the front line, but being back home, I was happy with them not being on the front line. (10:44) XX: Okay. Did you think that America should have been in this war? Should have fought this war? �LR: Yes. But I don’t think we solved anything, for the first one. The first Gulf War. Cause it still came up later. We still had to fight it again. And the war on terrorism, I don’t really feel like it touched on what it should have touched on. XX: What did you think about the enemy? (11:18) LR: I’m trying to understand where they came from. I guess it really kind of opened up my view, because that, I’m a Christian and I’ve got my Christian values. And that other parts of the world, that they value something different. And I tried to keep things… XX: Openminded? LR: Openminded, correct. So I guess it just kind of opened up my horizons a bit more, to not be so narrow minded in thinking that the whole world thinks like the United States does, cause they obviously don’t. (12:07) XX: How did the news stories…what effect did they have on you? LR: Anxiety. Every time something came up, I was shhh, shhh, shhh. I made everybody be quiet, cause it was coming up. Cause when you have a loved one that’s over there, it’s very terrifying that something could be escalating war, and create more, you know, loss and heartache. XX: How did you feel about the American anti-war protesters during the war? LR: I kind of thought that they really didn’t have…that they didn’t understand that these soldiers that went over there don’t have any choice. They’re just doing what they’re trained to do. And the protesting, you’re not hurting the President, at all. Who you’re hurting are those over there fighting it. (13:19) XX: How did you feel the war ended? Like did we accomplish any of our objectives, or… LR: No. We didn’t accomplish anything. It just ended. Like I said, we had to go back again. And we just left. XX: How did you feel once you heard the news that everybody was coming home? LR: Thrilled. Excited. Confused, because like I said, we didn’t accomplish anything. But happy, because I knew that my husband was going to be safe. (13:52) XX: How did this war change your life? �LR: I don’t know if it did. I don’t think it did. XX: Is there anything else you would like to add to this topic? LR: No, I think we did a good job on touching on everything. (14:09) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RookerL0703V Title A name given to the resource Rooker, Leanne (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rooker, Leanne Description An account of the resource Leanne Rooker's husband fought in the first Iraq war while she remained home in the states. She was very anxious the whole time he was gone, even though he did not actually get involved in combat. Leanne felt that the protesting during the war was not even being heard by the President, but just negatively affecting the morale of the soldiers. She was disappointed with the war in that she felt nothing was actually accomplished because there was a second war later dealing with similar problems. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rooker, Jacob (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-15 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/191aaa67419ba89a997e5c95608d4f4b.pdf 9eb6194ae8b0402d79d36c0fe77ad3c0 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Gloria Rosario Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/28/2012 Biography and Description Gloria Rosario grew up in Lincoln Park and Wicker Park during the 1960s, as those communities were becoming unstable, and the forced dislocations had already pushed many of the areas Latino pioneers from their homes. Ms. Rosario describes spending time with a neighborhood branch of the Latin Kings, many of whom were the younger brothers and sisters of Young Lords. Like the Lords, they wore Young Lords buttons and supported the community. Ms. Rosario remembers helping out with the Young Lords’ Breakfast for Children Program and the Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. She also recalls the proliferation of drugs that were allowed to flow into Lincoln and Wicker Park during the 1960s and 1970s, undermining the activism and well-being of many of the young Puerto Rican men and women who remained in those neighborhoods. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Your name, your birthday, and where -- GLORIA ROSARIO: Okay. My name is Gloria Rosario. I was born August 18, 1955. My family arrived in Chicago -- I think my dad came in ’49, my mom in ’51. Within those two years, they established -JJ: What town? Where are you from again? GR: They were in Guayama, in Puerto Rico. JJ: In Guayama, Puerto Rico? GR: Puerto Rico, yeah. JJ: Okay. In el barrio in Guayama or -- GR: La Barriada Marin. Yeah. That’s what I remember. JJ: And did you have more family here? Is that why they came here? GR: Yeah. I think this is where my mother’s brother came, her older brother. And my grandmother was here, her mom. And so, that’s where they came from when they came [00:01:00] from Puerto Rico. JJ: And what was the reason that they said that they came? GR: I have no idea. I’m the smallest of the bunch. (laughs) JJ: And you say the bunch. How many siblings? GR: There was supposed to be 15. Nine were passed away. So, six of us were left, my oldest brother Victor, my sister Peggy, [Manci?], [Serreda?], and my smallest brother Frank. JJ: And you said nine -- the reason that they passed away? 1 �GR: They passed on, miscarriages through childbirth, newborn birth. SIDS, most likely. They passed away in their sleep. JJ: So then, your father came here to Chicago, and you were born in Chicago? [00:02:00] GR: I was and my smallest brother. We were the last two out of the bunch. (laughs) JJ: And so, you said Henrotin Hospital, right? GR: At Henrotin. I was born there. JJ: So, where did they first live at when they came here? GR: I believe it was LaSalle Street. What I’ve been told was on LaSalle Street by North Avenue. JJ: LaSalle by North Avenue? And this was back in 1949? GR: Fifty-one, ’52, yeah. JJ: Fifty-one, around ’52. Okay, and when did you start remembering? What was the first memory that you have of Chicago? GR: When I was like maybe a year and a half. (laughs) I remember way back then. Being taken from my house to my grandmother’s where I was babysitted. [00:03:00] I remember going to my mother’s aunt’s house all the time. She was old. She was bedridden. Going to church with my mom to St. Michael’s. JJ: Did you just go to church, or did you attend school there at all? GR: No, I didn’t go to school there. The school I went to was Manierre. JJ: Manierre. Do you know where that -- GR: It’s on Blackhawk and Cleveland. JJ: And so, you went to church. Was it Spanish mass or was it -- 2 �GR: I don’t remember. I really don’t. I just remember going. JJ: But it was at St. Michael’s? GR: It was at St. Michael’s. JJ: And you were going to Manierre school. What was Manierre like? What kind of kids -- what population? GR: Well, I was the only [00:04:00] white (makes quotation gesture) (laughs) in the school in my room. There was two of us, a guy named Michael -- he was a white boy. I remember that because he sent me a real big card for Valentine’s Day. And this was kindergarten and first grade. So, the teacher said she was jealous. I remember her saying that because I got the biggest card. (laughs) But that’s about what I remember from Manierre school. JJ: So, most of the other kids were Black, African American? GR: The majority. JJ: And that was because -- GR: They were African American. I guess the area. JJ: What do you mean the area? What was the area like? GR: Blackhawk and Cleveland, Mohawk and the back of [00:05:00] -- by Blackhawk, North Avenue. At that time there were a lot of Black people living in that area. JJ: Okay, because also you had the Cabrini-Green projects there. GR: They weren’t built, I guess, at the time. That’s why. I don’t think they were built because I had never heard of Cabrini-Green in the ‘60s, late ‘60s, early ‘60s. Never heard of it. JJ: So, you go there at Manierre or you were there for a few years? 3 �GR: At Manierre, I just went to my first grade, and then, we moved from there. Then I went to Newberry. JJ: Where did you move to there? GR: To Orchard, between North Avenue and Willow. JJ: To the Lincoln Park neighborhood, basically. Because the other neighborhood was more like Old Town. Right? Am I correct? GR: The south? Yeah. JJ: Yeah, the south, La Clark, (inaudible) La Clark. [00:06:00] GR: Yeah. JJ: Do you remember them calling it La Clark or no? No? Okay. GR: I have no -- JJ: Recollection. GR: -- recollection of that. JJ: So now, you’re in -- well, they didn’t call it Lincoln Park either. You were just on Orchard and -- GR: Orchard and -- yeah. JJ: Yeah, they didn’t call it by that either. Okay so, now -- are you still going to Manierre, or what’s -- GR: No, I’m going to Newberry School. JJ: To Newberry? GR: Yeah. JJ: And so, you went to Newberry your first grade. Right? GR: Second grade. 4 �JJ: Second grade. Okay. So, how was that, Newberry? What was the difference between that and Manierre? GR: It was different. There was a Boys Club across the street. I can’t remember the name of the Boys Club. JJ: On Orchard? Right on Orchard? (inaudible) GR: Right on Orchard and Willow, yeah, right across the street from the school. JJ: So, [00:07:00] right down the street from your house basically? GR: Yeah, half a block. JJ: So, did you go to the Boys Club? GR: Every day. JJ: Every day? GR: That was what I -- JJ: But I thought it was a Boys Club. GR: -- swimming -- well, it was for boys and girls. So, it wasn’t just boys. JJ: So, there was swimming there? Were you -- anything else that they did there? GR: The arts and crafts after school. They had a small library for books. They had arts and crafts, and they would teach you how to make little things there. They had games, a lot of games. Just regular kid stuff. JJ: But the population, the neighborhood -- how was that? GR: It was more -- it was a mixture there. There was a lot of Hispanics in that area. White, I remember a lot of gypsies living in the neighborhood too. JJ: So, there was a gypsy community there or [00:08:00] -- 5 �GR: Well, not the whole community. But there were some people that were gypsies. More than what I saw before. A lot of white people in that area before that I went to school with. There was a lot of white kids. JJ: Now, at that time, they didn’t have any gangs through, right? Or did they have gangs? Did they have white gangs? GR: They had gangs. But I didn’t see what I see today. You have to have a 38 or a 357 to be in a gang today. (laughs) Before all you needed was two fists. JJ: So, it was just neighborhood? Before it was just like a neighborhood? GR: Yeah. JJ: But did they have white gangs too or just Hispanic gangs? GR: Well, I know they had white gangs because my brother used to talk about them. [00:09:00] JJ: What did he say? GR: How bad they were, their little motorcycles. They used to fight a lot. (break in audio) GR: The only thing that I would see a lot of was the gypsies yelling at their kids not to be talking to us, not to be talking to the other person, not to be -- to me, discrimination was a big word before. Now, it’s so different. That I didn’t take it as that -- I just take it as people that were bad. (laughs) That was it to me. JJ: So, the only other people that you saw at that time when you were young were the gypsies and the Hispanics and the -- GR: The white people. 6 �JJ: -- few whites? And but before [00:10:00] it was a Black community, and now you’re in a different type -- GR: In a mixed, yeah. JJ: -- mixed community in Lincoln Park. So, did you -- how far did you go into Newberry? GR: I think it was the third, fourth grade. Then from there -- no, I went through the sixth grade because the seventh and eighth was the Arnold Upper Grade Center. JJ: Oh, so you went up to the sixth grade and then Arnold as -- GR: Right. JJ: -- like the upper grade center? GR: But I had to change between schools. So, I had left Newberry and I had gone -we had moved. JJ: Where did you move to from there? GR: I think we were on Seminary by St. Theresa Church, right behind there. JJ: Okay. So, you moved up there. GR: And then -- JJ: Over by Armitage and [00:11:00] Seminary up there? GR: Yeah, Clifton. They were across the street from Oscar Mayer School. (laughs) Never went to Oscar Mayer though. I was already out of grade school. JJ: And so, you were already in Arnold and you were going -- GR: No, no, no, Waller. JJ: That was a long walk. Did you walk or take the bus? GR: I used to walk. I walked everywhere. 7 �JJ: So, you’re walking down Armitage or -- GR: Down Armitage -- JJ: And at that time -- GR: -- cutting the streets, Dickens. JJ: -- what kind of people lived on Armitage at that time? GR: There was a big mixture. There was a lot of Polish people living that way. JJ: What year was this about? GR: Sixty-six, ’67, ’68. JJ: Okay. So, there were a lot of Polish people still living there -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- at Armitage? GR: There still were a lot of -- and we lived on Burling, I remember, in ’61, ’62. That’s where my grandmother died. JJ: Burling and Willow or Burling and Armitage? GR: By Burling and -- in between, right in the middle of the block. [00:12:00] (laughs) Everything’s the middle of the block. JJ: And so, that was on the other side. So, that was still by Orchard. GR: Yeah, it was just two blocks away. JJ: So, who lived there? What type of people lived there? Just trying to get -- GR: Hispanics, yeah. JJ: Mostly Hispanics on Burling at that time? GR: It was a lot of Hispanics. JJ: But that was -- 8 �GR: It was family, put it that way, because all my family lived on the block. JJ: Oh, the whole family? GR: My uncles, my aunts. JJ: So, when you came from Puerto Rico, they started moving in too? GR: They were -- some of them were here already. That’s why my mother came. I think my mother was the only one left in Puerto Rico at the time. JJ: So, would you say when Puerto Ricans came here they came with their families or -- GR: Oh yeah. Just like the other people that migrate. There’s always a family member here already and talks good about the place or that they like it or that there’s work. And they follow. That’s what I believe happened [00:13:00] with my family also. JJ: And they all lived together there on Burling? GR: Just about, if not close to it. JJ: So, otro Guayama? GR: Just about another (inaudible). (laughs) JJ: Okay. So, now you’re going to Arnold School. What was that like? What was Arnold like? GR: I used to have a lot of fun at Arnold. I mean, that’s where I found the other gangs. (laughs) Because I used to associate with everybody. I was never in a gang though personally. JJ: What other gangs did you see? 9 �GR: The Latin Kings and the Latin Queens. The ones they would argue with here the Harrison Gents and stuff like that. JJ: So, what year was this? This had to be later, no? GR: Sixty-seven, ’68. JJ: Sixty-seven, ’68? So, Latin Kings were there and the Harrison Gents. And who did you hang around mostly with at that time? GR: With the Kings. JJ: With the Kings? GR: Because I used to chase my cousins because they were in [00:14:00] gangs, and I used to chase them. (laughs) We were always fighting with them, I was. JJ: With the Kings? GR: I was fighting always with my cousins because of the gangs and stuff that they weren’t supposed to be in those things. JJ: But your cousins were in more gangs? GR: They were in the Kings. JJ: They were in the Kings. But you were fighting with them. So, you were going with the (Spanish) [00:14:18], I guess. GR: Yeah, just about. (laughter) JJ: So, you were like their mom basically (inaudible). GR: Yeah, yeah, I was their favorite cousin, but I was still the one to watch out for at that time. JJ: So, you weren’t in a gang, but you were hanging out with them? GR: No, I would hang out with everybody. 10 �JJ: So, were you afraid of them or -- GR: I just didn’t like the fighting stuff, and I didn’t like anything that had to be negative. I wasn’t a negative person. JJ: And who were they fighting with? GR: Gents or somebody that would come down the avenue or Blacks or whites or whoever. [00:15:00] It would be a motorcycle gang. (laughs) It would anybody that was drunk, anybody that was -- it was just anybody. JJ: It was just fighting with anybody? GR: Yeah. JJ: And you said you were having a lot of fun. What kind of fun? GR: Well, I always had a curfew. And if I would go anywhere, it would be to St. Theresa’s Church. They used to have a lot of quarter parties. The Queens used to rent this club and -- it’s at Belmont and Sheffield. I don’t remember the name of the place. But where -- JJ: You mean a hall? GR: The hall. JJ: Viking Hall? GR: That was Viking Hall? JJ: Viking Hall, yeah. GR: Okay. That was on the next block over. Okay, that was it. Yeah. JJ: So, the Queens used to rent that? GR: Yeah, to have parties there. So, either that, or [00:16:00] I would go down there. JJ: So, the women were the organizers of the dance? 11 �GR: It was this one lady that was -- she was a white lady. She was way older. I mean, she was like a grandma already. So, she was old. They used to organize the girls with the -- and I guess she used to be a Queen or something. That’s where the Latin Queens -- JJ: So, her purpose of organizing the dance was for -- GR: It was really just to keep trouble out of the neighborhoods, just to keep something going. JJ: So, she didn’t get paid by the city or anything? GR: No, no, no, no. She didn’t. She just did it on her own because I guess her daughter was a gang member. (laughs) So, I guess she wanted to keep her on her toes. JJ: So, because up there too where the Viking Hall, the Eagles and the Aristocrats -[00:17:00] they used to use that hall too. GR: Yeah, a lot of people used that hall. I guess it was one of the cheapest in that area. (laughs) JJ: The cheapest to rent. So, a lot of the gangs too used it, rented it. GR: I’m pretty sure they didn’t tell them they were in a gang but -- JJ: But they would -- GR: -- used to use their names or whatever. JJ: Were they usually safe? The dances? GR: Yeah, most likely unless somebody brough alcohol in. Then they got drunk and they got stupid. But other than that, they were just good old parties. JJ: Now, did the Queens and Kings come from other parts of the city? 12 �GR: I think so. I think they’re from Belmont and Sheffield and from Armitage and Sheffield. But they were all associated. Everywhere they would have a party, they would all get together. They would come down to [00:18:00] St. Theresa or they would go over to Viking Hall. JJ: Okay. So now, St. Theresa -- did they organize any dances there? GR: Yeah. The basement that they had over there on Fremont. JJ: You said the Queens did that too, right? GR: Yeah. JJ: But what about the other -- the adults. Do you remember them having any parties? GR: Just the people that would rent the hall to use it for a Friday or Saturday. JJ: They would rent it. But there was always a dance there? GR: Yeah. JJ: You said quarter parties. How does that work? GR: Well, you pay a quarter to get in because a lot of people used to go to that because it was cheap. And then, they just would dance all night there. JJ: So, when you say a lot of people, about how many people would be there? GR: At least three hundred. JJ: At least three hundred? GR: At least. JJ: And these were people from different groups? GR: If they were, they weren’t saying, (laughs) that’s for sure. JJ: Thy wouldn’t say what group? 13 �GR: No. [00:19:00] But it used to be mostly the Kings. JJ: Mostly the Kings when they had their dances? GR: Yeah. The Concerned Puerto Rican Youth Center was across the street. JJ: Because there was a youth center across the street. But I thought that was being run by the Paragons at one time. GR: The old Paragons -- JJ: Mingo -- GR: Mingo Ayala. JJ: -- and those people. Is that the one you’re talking about? GR: Yeah. JJ: So, you’re talking about the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth -- GR: Youth Center, yeah. JJ: -- Youth Center. So, they were throwing parties and that. So, they were raising money for their group too, for their organization or -- GR: Well, I don’t know how that went about. I was on the staff, and I would go to the meetings and stuff. I was the youngest one on the staff. But I never knew -- JJ: So, what kind of things would they discuss at the meetings, I mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? GR: As far as discussion, the problems that they were having, what things they had to change, [00:20:00] the attitude of some people that were working there -- JJ: Working at the -- GR: -- at the center. JJ: So, it mostly like to keep their orders? 14 �GR: To keep the -- yeah -- and just to keep it established and try and keep it clean and out of trouble in the neighborhood. JJ: Now, there was a lot of changes going on in the neighborhood, people moving out, and did they deal with those things, or they’d talk about -- GR: Not that I remember. They were trying to keep the kids out of -- after school to stay in one place and not be running around the neighborhoods causing trouble and stuff. JJ: So, it was like an after school -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- gang prevention program, something like that -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- except they weren’t preventing any gang, but they were preventing the violence. GR: The violence, yeah. They were trying to do things that -- they would take us camping. Projects -- we went to the Chicago Olympics, which was really great because I was the only one out of the bunch [00:21:00] with a medal. (laughs) JJ: What kind of medal? GR: I got a bronze medal for high jumping, four feet, 10 and a half inches. JJ: Okay, alright. Congratulations. GR: Thank you. That was the old -- and my cousin took it from me, and then, he gave it to my aunt and she’s screaming that it was his. So now, it’s gone. (laughter) And she holds tight to that metal like a life. As long as it’s still there -- JJ: Now, what were some of the other staff? Do you recall any of them? 15 �GR: [Ayla Miranda?], Mingo Ayala. Do you know, I can’t even remember the names right now? I just had a stroke, so that’s got to be the reason why I don’t remember names. I remember the faces. I see them. JJ: Nestor Hernandez? Do you remember him? GR: Nestor, yeah. [00:22:00] (inaudible) Mingo, Nestor, I think Wilson or his brother and -- JJ: Now, see, some of these were in the Paragons before -- GR: They -- yeah. JJ: And they also worked at the YMCA before -- because I worked with some of them. That’s why I know them. So, you’re at Arnold school, and you’re going at the dances too at the same time while you’re at Arnold school? GR: Yeah. JJ: No, anything else that you remember about Arnold school? What about Arnold school? GR: I was a joker at Arnold School. JJ: What do you mean? GR: They only passed me because I had (laughs) honor roll grades in my eighth grade because I had missed 86 days of school. JJ: Why were you missing those -- schools? GR: I was going to school every day, and the teachers would call me from the windows. That’s how it was. And I would tell them, “Wait a minute. I’ve got to watch this. They’re going to fight,” [00:23:00] or something like that. And the 16 �whole class would bust out laughing, things like that. But I wasn’t a bad student. I had really -JJ: Were there a lot of fights at Arnold? GR: Just the regular. (laughs) JJ: Every day? The regular every day? GR: Every other day. JJ: Every single day there was a fight? GR: Well, I mean, before, I guess, the Blacks were also against Puerto Rican people. And there was a lot of that fighting. I mean, when Martin Luther King died, I know my sister got beat up because they thought she was a white. JJ: I remember they were chasing people down the street -- GR: All over, yeah. JJ: -- when Martin Luther King died. GR: In front of the school, yeah. My sister came out of the school. She was a senior or junior. And boom, she got beat up bad because they thought she was a white person. JJ: Okay. [00:24:00] GR: And she kept telling them, “No, no, no,” but she looks white. (laughs) Can’t help that. JJ: But she was going to Waller though? GR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: So, you went from -- Arnold was across the street from Waller. GR: Yeah. 17 �JJ: So, you went from Arnold to Waller? And did you finish Waller? GR: No. From there, I went to Wells, and from Wells, I went to Tuley. JJ: What do you remember of Waller, and what was your experience there besides the -- GR: I used to love the music class because I had all honor roll classes, which I didn’t like because there was nobody there I knew. (laughs) JJ: Because they weren’t interested in studying like you were at that time? GR: I guess. They didn’t have the grade qualifications. [00:25:00] JJ: What made you want to study? GR: I wanted to be a doctor since I was real little. At the age of four or five, I was taking doctor books at the library. (laughs) That’s what I wanted to be a doctor? JJ: I just love medicine. I love helping people. I mean, I help people to this day now, as much as I can. If you need a favor, if you’re sick, I’m there, even if I don’t know you, I’m there. (laughs) But that’s how I’ve always been since I was little. I would walk down the street with my mother. You know, sometimes these old men that drink, fall out, and they’re just out unconscious in the street. I used to tell my mother, “Let my hand go,” so that I can go and see if that person was okay. (laughs) She would get so mad at me. “What if that man jumps up and hits you or hurts you or grabs you?” [00:26:00] “Mom, we’ve got to see if he’s alive. That’s the important thing.” That was my concept of telling her to stay still. JJ: So, did you and your mom walk a lot in Lincoln Park? GR: Yeah. Walking was my thing. I used to play baseball at Lincoln Park. I used to walk to Lincoln Park every day. 18 �JJ: Where you on a team or -- GR: A baseball team. JJ: For what school? GR: It wasn’t school. It was for Francisco Marcano. JJ: A league? GR: Yeah, baseball league. JJ: Francisco Marcano? GR: I played for four years. JJ: Did they have women on the team? GR: That was when they started the women’s teams. And most of the girls from there -- JJ: And these were being done in Lincoln Park? GR: Yeah. JJ: Any other parks? GR: Humboldt Park. They had them all over the parks. I guess it was the Chicago Park District that was going to start these leagues. JJ: So, most of these were Spanish people that were coming. GR: Yeah. [00:27:00] There was Blacks on our team though. There was white, Mexicans, all kind of races. JJ: So, you remember going to the park itself, Lincoln Park. And the lake -- where did you go? Where did the Latinos go to? GR: It was across the street from the bridge where you go to North Avenue Beach. 19 �JJ: Okay, the North Avenue Beach used to be -- it’s Spanish or a lot of Spanish speaking used to go? GR: Yeah, it was a lot of Spanish people. There was a lot of whites too at that time. JJ: It was a mix? GR: Yeah. JJ: A mix at that time? GR: There was all kind of races by then that I would see. JJ: Is it like that now? GR: I think it’s a lot more white people going to the beaches now because I don’t go, that’s for sure. (laughs) JJ: Oh, you’re afraid of that? (laughter) (Spanish) [00:27:50] GR: Not at all. No, I’m not scared of anybody or anything. I had that thing that, in life, [00:28:00] since I was little, if something’s going to happen to you, it’s going to happen to you because. JJ: Because of -- what do you mean? GR: Whatever. (laughter) Either you’re in the way or you caused the trouble or something. JJ: But you had good times at the beach. GR: Oh yeah. JJ: You went to the beach. GR: A lot. JJ: Would you go to the beach a lot? 20 �GR: My aunt has a lot of pictures when we were little. And that’s one of my favorite things of doing when I go to her house is to see the pictures. I was a little Shirley Temple. I had the worst curls in life. (laughs) JJ: Shirly Temple was a role model at that time -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- I mean, for girls or for women? GR: Well, the curls -- I mean, my hair was so curly it wasn’t funny anymore. And from curly to nappy to worse until I put an afro on my head because I couldn’t tolerate it. JJ: So, you’re in [00:29:00] -- you went from Waller to Wells, you said? Why did you do that? GR: I went to where my dad was at because he had been getting sick. So, my mom and dad lived separately. So, I went to his house. JJ: And he lived where? GR: On Chicago Avenue and Throop Street, Elizabeth, Throop. Over there by -what’s the name of that -- JJ: Chicano Noble, that -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- ho house over there? GR: Eckhart Park. JJ: So, over by Eckhart Park. So now, did he move from the south to Eckhart Park or no? 21 �GR: No, from Mohawk or Burling, one of the two. He was always over there causing a scene. (laughs) JJ: By Eckhart Park, that area? GR: No, by Burling -- JJ: Oh, by Burling. He was causing a scene. GR: -- and Orchard and stuff. JJ: You mean from drink? GR: He was always causing a scene. But he didn’t sleep [00:30:00] there. (laughs) JJ: What causing a scene -- what do you mean? GR: I mean, drinking and just trying to be a tough man that he wasn’t. (laughs) That’s my father. JJ: But now, he’s sick and he’s over by Eckhart Park? GR: He lost his eyesight there. He worked every day of his life. JJ: How did he lose his eyesight? GR: Waiting for the bus one morning on his way to work. He was diabetic, never took care of it. And it will blind you. Diabetes will blind you. JJ: Was it education, the reason that he didn’t want to take care of it or he didn’t have insurance? GR: I think it was out of laziness. JJ: His laziness? GR: Yeah. Just because he had everything he needed. He had his insulin. He had his injections. He had everything he needed to take care of it. So, at one time, I guess, when it started, he was taking care of it. [00:31:00] But then, alky came 22 �by and it’s all messed up. (laughs) I think it was his alcoholism that got him where he -JJ: So, you moved over with him to take care of things? GR: Well then, my brother decided that when he graduated from high school that he was going straight into the military. He didn’t tell my father. JJ: He graduated from Waller? GR: Wells. JJ: Oh, he went to Wells. GR: Yeah, he was a top cadet. JJ: So, he went from Waller to Wells too. GR: No (break in audio) to Wells. JJ: Okay, so he was in with your pop. GR: He stayed with my father, so he was -- basically he went to carpenter school all his life. And then, from there, he went straight to Wells and graduated from Wells. That’s what he did. He was the top cadet for the ROTC. JJ: At Wells? GR: He was the one that got the big sword [00:32:00] at the end of the fourth year. JJ: What was his name? GR: Frank Rosario?. Suez is his real name, like the Suez Canal, a name he hated all his life, so he changed it to Frank. (laughs) JJ: Frank Rosario? Okay. GR: I think it’s a beautiful name, I mean, Suez. JJ: Oh yeah. It’s a beautiful name. 23 �GR: It’s really every bit as -- not everybody has it, period. (laughs) So, it’s an individual -- I like the name. I don’t know why he didn’t like it, but I like it a lot. JJ: So, what do you remember of Wells? I mean, what’s a memory? GR: I remember the lunchroom real well (laughs) to be honest because I went to [00:33:00] a few classes, but I was in the lunchroom. JJ: What was happening at the lunchroom that you’re laughing? GR: Just the food and just to sit there and watch people. I should have been a cop since I was little (laughs) because I was always into that. JJ: Into watching? GR: Watching, learning, why did they do this, why did they do that. JJ: (Spanish) [00:33:23] You were talking about them, everybody that came by? GR: Not talking anything about them. But if they would do something wrong or if they did something out of line or disrespectful or things like that, I would -- JJ: You would correct them, or you would tell them? GR: I would tell them. And if they started to fight with me, (laughs) I would tell the people that needed to hear it. JJ: Okay, okay. So, you keep them in line basically? GR: Tried, at least. JJ: Now, what was the population there, in Wells? [00:34:00] because that came -that was -- GR: It was so different. JJ: It was so different, you said? 24 �GR: Yeah, it was different at Wells, I guess too because I didn’t know too many people there. So, I used to be alone a lot, just observing everybody and everything. Then I went to Tuley. JJ: Okay, so you went from Wells to Tuley? GR: Yeah. I had to leave. JJ: Now, where is Tuley at from Wells? How far is it? GR: Tuley is where Roberto Clemente -- Tuley was the old Roberto Clemente. They changed the name. JJ: Oh, okay. I got it. GR: Roberto Clemente is on Division, and Western right now? JJ: And Wells was on Ashland. GR: And Wells was on Ashland, and Oakley and Hirsch is Tuley. [00:35:00] JJ: So, you went to Tuley. GR: So, I’m in that neighborhood right now. (laughs) JJ: You’re in the Tuley neighborhood. So, that’s the Wicker Park neighborhood, I mean, according to the city name. That’s Wicker Park. But you call it the Tuley neighborhood because everybody used to go by the high school? GR: Yeah, it was Tuley High School. JJ: Now, they go by the name -- GR: By the names and -- JJ: -- of the neighborhood. GR: Yeah. 25 �JJ: But they used to go by -- if you were from Waller, if you were from Tuley, if you were from Wells. So, the high schools -- GR: The schools were the -- JJ: -- were the center. GR: -- basic neighborhood names. (laughs) JJ: They were the center. So now, you’re at Tuley. And what was Tuley like? What type of population -- GR: I used to love going there. JJ: What type of -- GR: It’s a lot of Latinos, a lot of Blacks. JJ: About what percentage of Latino, what percentage of Black? GR: About -- I think it was like an 80 percent Latino at the time, maybe 10 percent Black and 10 percent white. JJ: So, this is Wicker Park neighborhood, and you live here today. GR: I’m staying [00:36:00] here. JJ: And what is it today? Is it 80 percent Latino or -- GR: No, it’s about -- it’s backwards now. It’s 80 percent white. (laughs) JJ: Oh, it’s 80 percent white. GR: And I guess it’s because of the rents around here. They’re so expensive. And because of the -- just a change in the neighborhood. I mean, they were trying to change it period. So, when Mayor Daley started with these urbanization projects that he was doing, he started pushing people out of their neighborhoods into other neighborhoods. You needed money to live. 26 �JJ: But when that was going on, did you notice that it was happening or -- GR: Oh yeah. I noticed that early in life, that they would -- so that they can better a neighborhood, they would just take everybody out and clean it up and rent and sell and do whatever they had to do. [00:37:00] JJ: So, they could better our neighborhood? GR: To better a neighborhood so that other people with money and -- JJ: So now, it’s better, our neighborhood or -- GR: I don’t see it any different. I don’t. I mean, maybe three percent (laughs) from a hundred. JJ: So, when you say you don’t see it any different -- but I mean, there’s a lot of condominiums and everything. GR: Oh yeah. But then, you have to have the money to live it. JJ: So, you’re saying in terms of your neighborhood, you don’t see it much different, in terms of the people from your neighborhood. GR: From where -- JJ: Latinos, the Latinos. GR: -- how I used to live, yeah. JJ: But the rest of the neighborhood is condominiums. GR: Yeah. JJ: So, nothing changed in terms of the Latinos or the Black or -- GR: No. JJ: -- the poor, whatever. GR: No. I mean, there’s less -- 27 �JJ: I’m putting words in your mouth (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). GR: Yeah, I know. Spanish -- there’s a lot less Hispanics living in the neighborhood now because of the rent of course unless they’re living under housing or [00:38:00] Section IIX or something like that, which a lot of people are. JJ: Are you living in Section IIX, or where are you living? GR: No, we pay rent. JJ: Regular rent? Okay. GR: Yeah. I mean, this is a Chicago housing building. But it’s not -- JJ: But you pay rent. GR: They pay rent. Yeah. JJ: They’re not Section IIX. GR: It’s not Section IIX or whatever. JJ: So, how do you feel about that, that they kind of changed the neighborhood around you? GR: Well, it is sad because you’re used to seeing other people. I mean, it’s good because it needed to change in a lot of ways. But then, it’s sad because you don’t see nobody around anymore that you used to see. You don’t know who’s alive or who’s dead or what’s going on with anybody anymore. So, it’s sad in that sense. JJ: Do you think that [00:39:00] affected anybody or -- GR: It affected a lot of people that wanted to stay. A lot of people had to get rid of their houses, a lot of people that bought houses that time -- JJ: They rented their houses? What do you mean? 28 �GR: Some people bought their houses. And then, with the inflation and everything else and -- the change in the neighborhood will inflate everything about your house and everything else. A lot of people had to give their houses up because they couldn’t afford -- (break in audio) GR: When I was growing up, North Avenue was the big avenue. They had the stores there to go shopping, the grocery stores. As far as I can tell you, everybody would walk around like -- there was not the fear that there is in this life today, that everybody’s scared to walk or carry a purse or anything like that. Before, they just -- everybody had their bags, hanging purses and their bands and their big dos and whatever. (laughs) [00:40:00] JJ: So, people were not afraid like today? GR: No, no, no. JJ: Even though it was -- GR: There was no fear before even though it was a Black neighborhood because we always fought back. I mean, I was five, but I remember my sister got into a fight at school because she won the basketball tournament and they wanted her trophies. So six girls jumped on her, the six girls that were playing basketball that day. And she got them all, (laughs) and they all went to jail. That was Peggy. JJ: So, people kind of lived comfortable because, I mean, if they had to fight, they fought. GR: You used to sleep with your doors open before. I mean, it was just -- that’s God’s honest truth. There were a lot of times we didn’t even bother locking the doors at 29 �night because it was that -- until then we started having trouble with my sister, the oldest one, Peggy at school because of the girls that -- she was very athletic. [00:41:00] So, they jumped her from sixth grade to Wells High School, from sixth grade to high school. JJ: From sixth grade to high school? GR: Yeah. JJ: To Wells High School? GR: Yeah. They had to get out of the neighborhood because it was bad for her. (break in audio) JJ: Okay. You were seven? GR: Coming out of second grade. I used to stay 10 minutes after school every day to help my teacher out because she was a very old lady. And I asked for permission to my mom to teach her. And since I lived only half a block down, on the other side of Orchard Street, right in the middle of the block between Willow and North Avenue. I lived right in the middle of the block. JJ: Oh, this was in Lincoln Park then? GR: Yeah. JJ: At the time. GR: The Lincoln Park area. JJ: By Willow and Orchard right there? And so, that was by Newberry School. GR: Right. Coming out of Newberry School. JJ: Oh, coming out of Newberry School? 30 �GR: Yeah. My sister saw me, and that’s what -- and we got some photogenic memories. [00:42:00] I mean, we’ve got some photographic memories and some photogenic memories. We remember everything, I mean, from head to toe. And that’s what caught them the next day. JJ: So, they did catch them? GR: Yes, his car. I was able to identify everything that I remembered in his car, and that’s what got his car picked up. And he had taken out a little Tweety Bird he had on his -- and I said, “The bird’s missing.” I told the officer, “The bird’s missing.” So, they opened up the glove compartment. “There it is.” (laughs) The bird was in there. JJ: So, you were seven years old, you said? GR: Yeah. JJ: So, what year would that be about? GR: Sixty-one, ’62. JJ: Sixty-one, ’62? GR: Sixty, ’61. JJ: Sixty, ’61. So, you had moved at ’60, ’61 to Willow and -- GR: From North Avenue and Mohawk to Orchard. JJ: So, you basically were just following North Avenue or -- GR: Yeah, just about. It was just about -- JJ: And that was the street that people were following -- GR: Because when we went up to Campbell. Yeah. [00:43:00] 31 �JJ: Then you went to Campbell later? Okay. So, you stayed near Willow. You didn’t go up to Armitage? GR: No, I was always up by Armitage because my sisters were in school there, and I would walk with them sometimes that way. But I was small, so I usually -- I was in the house all the time watching my dad because I had to watch him over my mom. (laughs) He used to drink a lot. So, when he would say something to her, “Oh no, you’re not. You get out of here right now.” (laughs) JJ: And he would listen to you? GR: I wouldn’t let him come near my mother. JJ: (Spanish) [00:43:37] GR: (Spanish) [00:43:38] He didn’t know that. But I would pop out and tell him, “No, my mom is always so good to you. Why are you treating her like that? She didn’t saying nothing wrong to you. She hasn’t even talked to you and you’re [00:44:00] already telling her that you’re going to do this and you’re going to do that. That’s not right. That’s not what I’m learning in this house is to be a good person, and you’re not teaching me that.” JJ: Was he hanging around with other people or -- GR: My dad was a loner. My dad used to be alone all the time. But he was always there when my mom and dad were separated. And even then, when he got sick and lost his eyesight for not taking care of his diabetes -- he went blind waiting at a bus stop to go to work, on his way to work. And he lost his eyesight right there waiting for the bus. So, somebody walked him back to the house. And then, 32 �when we called doctors and everything -- but that’s because he never took care of his diabetes. JJ: You mean he never took insulin or -- GR: He was a Type I diabetic, so -- JJ: He needed insulin. GR: Brandy or a little whiskey -- that was his diet, not insulin -- [00:45:00] or cold beer. That was his insulin. JJ: More sugar? GR: Yeah. JJ: So, what was -- can you describe the neighborhood at that time, in 1968, right around that time? What do you remember? You were seven. GR: Yeah, I was seven. But I was always in the Boys Club. I was always -- since the age of three, I used to go to that big pool on Ogden and Larrabee, North Avenue. JJ: The [Aishan?]? GR: The Aishan YMCA, exactly. That’s where I learned how to swim at the age of three. So, I was just -- water was for me all the time, swimming. JJ: What kind of people lived there? GR: A lot of Hispanics. And that was 90 percent Black at that time. JJ: That Aishan YMCA? GR: Yeah. My sisters used to take me because they couldn’t go if they wouldn’t take me. (laughs) And their high school friends -- JJ: There was Spanish and Black? GR: -- Hispanics, yeah, all the old guys [00:46:00] from -- 33 �JJ: And 90 percent Black because they were from Cabrini-Green? GR: They all lived there on North Avenue. JJ: North Avenue. GR: Yeah. On North Avenue, Larrabee, Mohawk, Sedgwick. (break in audio) JJ: So, why did they pass away, your siblings? GR: Some of them were before birth, miscarriages. And some of them were -- I know the oldest one died from SIDS, which was -- she died in her sleep. That’s just when they don’t have an undetermined cause of death and they don’t find no foul play. JJ: What did your mother say? You said that they were miscarriages? What did you mother say they were miscarriages from? GR: She was having a baby every year, so you could imagine that’s why. (laughs) JJ: So, that’s why? GR: Yeah. JJ: So, you came here, and you lived by Mohawk. You remember -- GR: Yeah, definitely. JJ: -- that area? What do you remember about that area? GR: I remember Blackhawk Street. I went to Cleveland. [00:47:00] I remember my grandmother basically. JJ: What was her name? GR: Florence. And I remember her because I used to stay with her when I was two. She used to babysit me during the day while my mom worked because my 34 �brother was smaller, so my other aunt used to take care of him during the day. And I remember her because she had an attic where she would wash her clothes with a little -- what do you call it -- that tin bathtub (laughs) and the (Spanish) [00:47:31]. That’s what it sounded like. So, I used to sit there, and I always used to be mesmerized at how she would sit there. And she’s have her legs like this and washing clothes. And one day I said, “What’s” -- she says, “That’s a spider.” (laughs) You know where I’m going with that. She had her legs open, and she didn’t have no underwear. So, that was so funny. [00:48:00] That was so funny to me that she said she had a spider. (laughs) And I got so scared because I was only two. So, I really didn’t know -- when she said a spider, I didn’t know she was talking about herself. But she was just a beautiful person. She was a loving and caring person. And I lost her when I was five, six. She passed away when I was in first grade. JJ: What happened? GR: Well basically they’ve all died from high blood pressure, heart trouble, thrombosis. JJ: Thrombosis? GR: Yeah. So, everybody in my mom’s side of the family has died at the age of 62 or less, including my father, and he didn’t belong on that side. (laughs) But they were 62. That was the number, 62, in my house. JJ: That’s when they passed away? GR: All of them. [00:49:00] JJ: Now, the other ones that grew up -- they grew up in Chicago too? 35 �GR: Yeah, we were all raised here. JJ: What school -- GR: My sisters. JJ: -- did you go to? GR: I went to Manierre, LaSalle School. I went to Newberry. That’s where I got kidnapped from. And I went to Arnold, Waller. Then I went to Wells, and then, I went to Tuley. JJ: You said you got kidnapped from Manierre? GR: Second grade, coming out of school. JJ: What do you mean, kidnapped? GR: I was kidnapped from a man, a Hispanic man. I was seven years old, and he put me in his car. And he had a big knife next to him. And he let me go two hours later, the same spot. And when I was going to the house -- and since he left me right off at Newberry again, right there on Willow and Orchard, he came back and he said he’d pick me up the next day. He was taking me to the zoo. [00:50:00] That’s what he told me. (laughs) So, when I’m walking home, I see all these policemen, detectives. I said, “Oh, something happened.” I’m all excited because I want to know what -- and it was me, the excitement -- “Oh, there she is?” I said, “Oh my gosh.” Then I got scared. So, it was something I’d never forget. (break in audio) 36 �GR: Hi. I’m Gloria Rosario. I am from Chicago, was born and raised here in Chicago, August 18, 1955. My family is originally from Puerto Rico in the town of Guayama, town of the witches. JJ: And so, what year did they come from Puerto Rico? GR: I think my dad came in ’49 and my mom in ’51. JJ: Do you remember what neighborhood they lived in? GR: On LaSalle Street. That’s where there was a lot of Spanish speaking people when they came from Puerto Rico. [00:51:00] cause I was born here. So, I wasn’t even thought of. (laughs) JJ: And where were you born, what hospital? GR: Henrotin Hospital, which no longer stands. JJ: That was on Oak and LaSalle? GR: On Oak and LaSalle. JJ: They used to call that neighborhood -- GR: Chestnut and Oak. JJ: -- La Clark. That was La Clark. They used to call it -- because the Clark Street was the big street. GR: Yeah, the Clark Street was behind it. Right. JJ: So, your parents were living there. And what neighborhood did you first remember (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? GR: Mohawk Street, that’s where we moved from LaSalle Street. I was still a baby then. But I remember when I was like one and three months, a year and three months old. That’s how far back I can tell you about my life because I had my 37 �first dance with my father, and I’ll never forget that day. It was October 12th, my brother’s birthday. And we had our first dance, and he’s a year older. So, I was two years and two and a half months old. And I had my first dance with my father. JJ: With your dad? [00:52:00] GR: And I’d never forget that. JJ: What was the -- GR: It was on Mohawk Street. JJ: Mohawk and -- GR: Mohawk and North Avenue. JJ: -- and North Avenue right there? GR: Right by the L track, first house by the L track. JJ: So, that’s basically like old town. GR: That’s like old town, yeah. JJ: That’s the old town neighborhood now? So, you lived there? So, you came from LaSalle and that area to old town? GR: Right, from LaSalle, North Avenue area to Mohawk and North Avenue. JJ: And you remember the dance. And then -- GR: That was my brother’s birthday, first birthday. So, I’m a year older. JJ: How many brothers and sisters do you have? GR: There’s six of us. There was 15. Nine died, during birth or before birth. So, there were six of us. JJ: All in Chicago? 38 �GR: My oldest brother died. They were all born in Puerto Rico. I was the only on born in Chicago, plus my little brother. JJ: So, why do you think the other ones died? GR: Well, the first one died -- [00:53:00] I know she had what they called -- that thing - not bed -- what do you call that? I forgot the name of it. (break in audio) JJ: So, 1968, 1969, 1970, the Young Lords were at Dayton and Armitage, at the People’s Church. GR: Right. JJ: Do you remember them changing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? GR: I always remember them there. That’s the first thing. JJ: Did you know them when they were a gang? GR: Yeah. JJ: And how were they at that time? GR: Well, I didn’t hang out with them a lot, but I used to go through the neighborhood all the time because I had friends living right there on Dayton across the street from the church, from the People’s Church. [00:54:00] And I used to pick my friends up to go to school in the mornings. So, I know they used to have parties there. They used to have a lot of -- what do you call those -- protest type -- JJ: Oh, that was later. That was when they were political. But I’m talking about when they were just a street gang. Just hanging out and -- GR: See, to me -- JJ: -- Halsted and Dickens. Do you remember that area? 39 �GR: Yes, of course. I used to work there at the hot dog stand. (laughs) JJ: Oh, you used to work at the hot dog stand? GR: Both of them. JJ: With George? GR: With George and then across the street. JJ: Well, tell me something about George. What do you know about George if you worked with him? GR: He was a good guy. JJ: I mean, where was he from? GR: He had a good heart. JJ: What country was he from? GR: I don’t -- I think he was Italian or Greek, one or the other. I don’t remember. (laughs) JJ: And you said -- GR: But he was a good person. He had a good heart. Didn’t let nobody mess with nobody in his place [00:55:00] or would just throw them out if they were really nasty people, wouldn’t serve them. Gave free food out to people that were hungry that didn’t have money. I know I saw that with my own eyes. George was a real good person. JJ: You don’t know his last name, do you? GR: [Kowiski?], [Kopinski?], or [Wiski?] (inaudible). (laughs) JJ: So, he was Polish. He was Polish then. GR: I don’t remember. But I know he was -- they moved and -- 40 �JJ: He was there before that neighborhood was Spanish. GR: Right. JJ: And then, the Spanish came in. And then, it was completely Spanish going to that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). GR: To that area, yeah. JJ: But he would keep the peace? GR: From there, we moved to Halsted and Wrightwood. They opened a new -- and I was the only one asked to go work over there other than the family that was working with him. But I was one of the only people that he asked if I could go work that. [00:56:00] JJ: But you were there when all the gangs used to come after -- GR: After school. JJ: -- school and to the parties. GR: Waller. JJ: Oh, after school they had the rioting and all that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). GR: Yeah, it was for the Martin Luther King era. JJ: That was kind of a little later, but that’s fine. But you were there then. You were working with George. GR: Yeah, sure was. JJ: And you said he was a nice person? Was he married or did he have any kids? GR: Yeah, he had a family. Who his wife -- I don’t remember none of that right. JJ: But they live in the community? 41 �GR: I know his brother used to work there with him. I don’t even know where they lived. I never asked questions like that. Him being my boss and stuff. JJ: Well, were there like almost 24 hours a day. GR: Yeah, they were there from real early to late at night. JJ: And everybody used to come and hang out at the parking lot. GR: In the parking lot, inside when he changed it because he had that -- just the front to serve people. Then he changed it to an L shape so they could come through the side [00:57:00] and through the front. From there, he moved to Wrightwood and Halsted, in between Wrightwood -- JJ: So, do you remember some of the groups that used to hang out there? GR: Basically just the people from the school. The Kings would be there. The Young Lords. Not the Harrison Gents, but the Paragons. JJ: Flaming Arrows, all these different groups? GR: Yeah. JJ: Imperial Aces, all of the (inaudible). GR: I don’t remember anybody from the Imperial Aces or anything like that. JJ: Well, the Imperial Aces and Queens used to be on Dayton and Armitage before we were -- GR: Before the people -- JJ: -- before the Latin Kings were in. GR: I remember those. JJ: So, George was there for many years. He was -- GR: Oh yeah, because I remember being small and coming to that hot dog stand. 42 �JJ: And then, that whole [00:58:00] side of that street was wiped out. Right? GR: Yeah. JJ: Now, do you remember who used to live on that side of the street, or no? GR: Across the street from George was St. Joseph’s Hospital before they moved it to [Diversica?], to -- what do we call that street now? [Lakeshore Drive?]. JJ: Oh, on the other side, across the street on Dickens. GR: Yeah, on Halsted and Dickens, right across the street from George. JJ: Was St. Joseph’s hospital. Okay. GR: Was St. Joseph’s because that’s where my nephew and my niece were born. And ’61 and ’62 -- that was where the hospital was. So then, they tore down that building after St. Joseph left. It was a big empty lot there. JJ: Some of the women would join the Paragons. There would be women that hung around with them. And the Kings had the Queens that [00:59:00] hung around with them. What was it like for the other women? They still went to the dances, but they -- GR: Yeah. They were like me, “Hey, hey, Queen love and whatever,” just associate. (laughs) JJ: I mean, were they sheltered by their parents? Did the parents try to keep you away? They didn’t shelter you. GR: I was pretty sheltered. JJ: What do you mean? GR: I had a curfew, and if I was a minute late, I wasn’t going out next week, that’s for sure. 43 �JJ: So, you were sheltered. GR: I would call my mom and tell her I was going to be five or 10 minutes. I lived right across the street behind the church, so I didn’t have too far to go. (laughs) JJ: So, you were lucky because you were by the church so you could stay out. GR: I guess basically wherever I would go, I would always make sure that I had a watch or somebody with a watch next to me. (laughs) I mean, it was important [01:00:00] to me to follow my mother’s rules. JJ: So, it was important. So, you did it not out of fear. You did it because of -- GR: More out of respect. I knew she was a hard worker, that she was taking care of us alone, and that she could need me at any moment for anything. JJ: So, it was more out of respect, meaning that you knew it would hurt your mother if you -- GR: Exactly. I would do nothing to try and hurt her. I just loved her that much that it would hurt me -- I didn’t like the way they look at her mean. Some men just were ugly and mean, and they would whistle. And I would tell them, “Don’t be looking at my mother like that.” (laughs) I didn’t know it was just that they were trying to throw a whistle or whatever. JJ: Could that have been because you kind of were more aware of the streets [01:01:00] than she was? GR: I was aware of them. JJ: Or was your mom more aware of the streets? GR: No, I was definitely. 44 �JJ: So, you saw her more like someone that came over from Puerto Rico that didn’t really -- GR: Wasn’t street smart. JJ: -- wasn’t street smart. GR: Right. JJ: And so, you had to protect her? GR: It was basically -- that’s the word. It was more out of protection, just watching her, that nothing would happen to her. I mean, she was my life. JJ: So, were other women doing the same thing, other girls at that time? GR: I don’t know. I don’t because when I used to be with my mom, we would hang out together, whatever, go anywhere together. It was just her and I. But as far as if other girls did whatever they did with their parents, I don’t know. JJ: So, you weren’t a Queen, but you were hanging around the Kings and the Queens? GR: Be with them most of the time, yeah. [01:02:00] JJ: And so, you must have gotten involved in some of the same things they did. GR: I never got into the fights. I didn’t -- JJ: I mean, was any weed smoked or anything like that? GR: I was always away from that lifestyle. I didn’t like it. I knew people that did it, that was their business. I didn’t care for it. I didn’t do drugs at that time. I did use them after a while in life, but I stopped also. JJ: And not during that time? GR: I used to love to drink. 45 �JJ: So, that time was the drinking time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? GR: Yeah. For me. And I stopped drinking when I was 21. Instead of starting then, I stopped (laughs) on my birthday. Two days after my birthday I stopped drinking. JJ: Okay. So, you started at what age, I mean, drinking? GR: Maybe nine, 10, just trying it out. JJ: And at 21 you stopped? You went backwards? GR: I stopped. Yeah. I was backwards. (laughter) JJ: You were kind of backwards. GR: But thank God I did that because my liver’s still alive (overlapping dialogue). [01:03:00] JJ: Because I know in the neighborhood they got into deep drugs. I got into deep drugs. But not at that time. But later you said? GR: Yeah, later in life, I was -- JJ: So, you were living where, in Wicker Park at the time when it happened? GR: By Humboldt Park. JJ: By Humboldt Park? So, this is after Wicker Park was gone and Lincoln Park. GR: Up until I was 19. JJ: Lincoln Park was gone? GR: Yeah. JJ: Do you think that could have contributed to anything? GR: No, what contributed to it was family. (laughs) They were into it heavily. I didn’t know. And I used to have migraines and they supposedly crushed Tylenol until I 46 �found myself sick one day. I didn’t know. I thought I had the flu. And I was in the big bad habit of heroin, which was supposed to be Tylenol. (laughs) [01:04:00] JJ: So, it wasn’t Tylenol. It was heroin. GR: It wasn’t Tylenol. It was heroin. JJ: They were crushing the heroin. GR: Yeah. JJ: So, what year was that? GR: They would tell me it works faster for the headaches. Seventy, ’71, ’72. JJ: Nineteen seventy-two. And that was over here. That was in the Humboldt Park area? GR: Yeah. Then I went to an intervention. I went to 21 day treatment, cold turkey, and came out and tried to get my sisters in there, one of them. JJ: So, your sisters had the same experience? GR: Yeah. That’s what I was taught. JJ: From your sisters? (laughter) Okay, so your -- GR: From one of them, which I won’t say names -- JJ: Oh, no, no. That’s fine. GR: -- out of disrespect to them. JJ: No, no, no. But I mean, it was happening with family. GR: My oldest brother, yeah. JJ: Now, could it be that it just kind of multiplied all at once like a fad or something? [01:05:00] GR: Well, you know, I -- 47 �JJ: I mean, first people are using that -- GR: -- was really upset because I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to go into medicine. And that just killed it, crushed it because I was a drug addict. (laughs) I couldn’t be a doctor like that to help another person. Are you kidding me? JJ: Now, how did -- GR: That affected me real bad. I think that’s where my depression came from. JJ: From there? GR: Yeah. JJ: What about your mom? Were you worried about her, protecting her? GR: She didn’t know. She knew that my brother used, but she didn’t know about us until later. I mean, she knew I tried some drugs because I would tell her myself. I wouldn’t wait for nobody to come and tell her. (laughs) I would come and tell her myself, “I tried this out, and no good.” JJ: So, why would you tell your mom? Why would you tell her if you didn’t want her to -- [01:06:00] GR: Well, I wanted her to know what I was doing. If anything were to happen to me that she wouldn’t be shocked that this came out in my blood system or that would come out of my blood system and stuff like that. JJ: So, you were trying to break it down to her. GR: Down to her, exactly. JJ: Because she wouldn’t be affected later? GR: Exactly. I didn’t want her to just found out all of the sudden and say, “How the heck did I not notice that my daughter was doing all these things or all those 48 �things or whatever?” So, I would sit and tell her, “Mom, I tried this and that.” I said, “You know how that is. People are in the street and they offer it and you don’t know. And they continue to offer it up until, “Hey, but try it. You’ll like it.” And then, you take it and you throw up and you vomit all your guts out and you say, “No thank you.” (laughs) So, that’s how I broke it down to her. JJ: Now, [01:07:00] you had children? You got married? Or what happened then? GR: No, I had a boyfriend and I got pregnant. I didn’t even know I was pregnant. My boss told me. He said he found me a little bigger. It was my breasts. That’s what he was talking about. JJ: That’s your boyfriend? GR: No, my boss at work. Yeah. He said, “Are you pregnant?” I said, “Pregnant? Why would I be pregnant?” He says, “Because I’ve seen you gain breasts in the last few weeks.” (laughter) JJ: He was checking. GR: He told me just like that. I said, “Oh, so that’s what you’ve been looking at?” JJ: He was evaluating. GR: Yeah. And I went and took a test and sure enough, I was. And that was my daughter. I let her dad know. And I think he got married about four or five months after that to someone else. JJ: Okay. But was he married to you then? GR: No, we weren’t married. JJ: Oh, you weren’t married. GR: Never been married. [01:08:00] 49 �JJ: And then, you have a son too, right? GR: Yeah, Denny. That’s my son, the one that passed away. JJ: Oh, he recently passed away? I’m sorry to hear that. GR: When he was 21, 10 years ago, July 25th. JJ: How did he pass away? GR: A log truck hit him or he hit the log truck. Something happened. And the man was trying to tell him to stop, stop, stop. And he had just left his girlfriend’s house. And he had been telling her that he took his life insurance out on her name. I guess he was in love, and then he was out of it (laughs) or whatever happened. The thing was that she was so mad at him. And I always said that she had something to do with his death. Because my son was a Christian. And he preached since the age of three. And never, never would he fall asleep like the way that they said he was out of it, totally out of it on his [01:09:00] way to the barracks, driving on his way to the barracks. He had left a note on the computer to a friend of mine here telling her, “I’m on my way to the barracks now. I was by so-and-so’s house, and we had a good time and blah, blah, blah.” After so many weeks or months or something, she had invited him over there. And that was it. Before he left, she gave him something to drink, and that’s all I know. JJ: And so, what branch of the service was he in? GR: He was in the Air Force in Montana. And he was burned beyond recognition because his car blew up when he got hit with the log truck. So, what I got was his bones basically. Well, his body was intact, but you couldn’t see anything. He was in cellophane wrap. [01:10:00] Then they put the uniform over the -- I 50 �wouldn’t let nobody see him, not even his father. I didn’t want nobody to go through what I was going through. So, I just remember him like that. JJ: So, you wanted your sisters and that to see this and that. What’s the most important thing you feel that they should know that maybe we’ve forgotten that we haven’t discussed? What sort of things that we haven’t touched upon yet? GR: Whatever we’ve been through in life, we’re sisters. Forgiven and forgotten and we’ve still got to love each other and help each other out. [01:11:00] JJ: So, you relationship with your family is pretty (inaudible)? GR: It is, it is. I mean, I still get yelled at like I was 10 by one of them. But she needs to open her eyes up and see what’s wrong with her. I can’t do that for her. JJ: You’re putting this on the tape. You might want to -- GR: That’s okay. JJ: -- let her know that she needs to open her eyes. GR: That’s okay. I love the hell out of her. That’s all I can say. JJ: Well, I think we’ll finish it up with that, if that’s okay. I appreciate it. GR: I thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 51 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5cb85f759a0726c422c671dfd3beaa8.mp4 0c99d7b727a1ba0f0a3e57e1ddabf1e8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Gloria Rosario vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rosario_Gloria Title A name given to the resource Gloria Rosario video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosario, Gloria Description An account of the resource Gloria Rosario grew up in Lincoln Park and Wicker Park during the 1960s, as those communities were becoming unstable, and the forced dislocations had already pushed many of the areas Latino pioneers from their homes. Ms. Rosario describes spending time with a neighborhood branch of the Latin Kings, many of whom were the younger brothers and sisters of Young Lords. Like the Lords, they wore Young Lords buttons and supported the community. Ms. Rosario remembers helping out with the Young Lords Breakfast for Children Program and the Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. She also recalls the proliferation of drugs that were allowed to flow into Lincoln and Wicker Park during the 1960s and 1970s, undermining the activism and well-being of many of the young Puerto Rican men and women who remained in those neighborhoods. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d99cfe62685893f05009c328362fb51.mp4 b8f811dc11655523d7037cdb1d2d6919 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3a2bfa1c0c4be2fada4e264c4986e8aa.pdf f90da8051c9e2740d6fd4b8d433a99d5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Camille J. “Joe” Rosbert Date of Interview: 02-21-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: If we could begin by your telling us what you were doing prior to AVG? JOE ROSBERT: Well in late 1930's, which was pretty much the height of the depression, I was graduated as a chemical engineer from Villanova in Pennsylvania and there was no way to get a job in those days. So during the last days of my schooling at Villanova, a team of naval aviators came from the Philadelphia Navy Yard and showed a movie called "Pensacola, the Annapolis of the Air" and when I saw those pilots learning to fly, plus the beautiful beaches in Pensacola and the pretty girls, I went up and signed the paper at that point and that was the start of my career as a naval aviator. I went from Pensacola after the training as an Ensign and was stationed at North Island in San Diego, flying a patrol plane; a lumbering old amphibian and we would go out all day on patrols up the coast to Alameda, California and back down to North Island. One night when I came home from one of those flights, my buddy - roommate actually - he had been celebrating and he said "there's a fellow who's going to come on the station tomorrow morning and talk about flying fighters in China". I said "you're drunk, go to bed." But sure enough, the next morning the word spread that there was a retired naval officer who was coming on the station and was going to talk to people who might be interested in this program. So I went and listened and it was a very interesting adventure, to my mind, that was coming up. First of all, it was �possible to get into flying fighters and escape from the lumbering PBY. Also when they mentioned names like Rangoon, Indonesia, China, Kunming, I thought this is for me. And when he finished that little spiel, I went up and signed the paper again. Unfortunately, he said "you're a PBY pilot and we've already taken some pilots of heavier planes, but we want experienced fighter pilots." So I was very discouraged and as I was walking away, one of my buddies said "there's a navy chief up at Alameda who is in on this recruiting program and if you can get up there and talk to him, he will probably help you out." So I thought, well this is a chance, so I arranged with the operations officer to fly up to Alameda. I talked to him on the telephone and he said "well I can see you're very interested. The chance lies at March field where one of our recruiters is going to go and sign up some U.S. Army Air Corps types and I will tell him you're coming if you can get over there." So I flew back to North Island, arranged a couple of days off, I drove up to March Field and here was this recruiter signing up the Army Air Corps pilots, and he allowed me to sign a contract. And that's how I got taken into the AVG program. FRANK BORING: What was the process and how did you react to the process of getting out of the situation you were in and actually into the AVG? JOE ROSBERT: Well the recruiter forewarned us that there might be a little negative feeling about resigning from the military, but that Washington had instructed most of these people that they were to accept resignations for this program, that it was an official U.S. Government program. So when I went in and talked to my commanding officer, I was the youngest Patrol Plane Commander in the naval aviation program. He had just promoted me to Patrol Plane Commander. When I told him I wanted to go he was a little disappointed except I could see that in his eyes if he were a little bit younger he would have wanted to go too, so he said "well, I wish you luck. I'll accept the resignation and you go ahead." I went through a procedure that took about 2 days, checking out at North Island and U.S. Navy Headquarters in San Diego and �eventually they signed all the papers and I was out of the navy within about 2 days. FRANK BORING: What was specifically told to you? What was promised to you in terms of your resignation? What were you expecting and what were you told? JOE ROSBERT: We were told that we would fly P-40's, first of all. They gave us the pay scale which ran from $600.00 for us men up to $750.00 for Squadron Leaders. The one thing that always griped us later on was that they told us that the time that we spent in the AVG would be counted as part of our service record. Now unfortunately, through all the talking and explaining what the program was, that particular stipulation was not good in the contract. In other words, it was a verbal thing. But the most important point was that all of the people who signed up in the AVG had been given the same message. In other words, it wasn't a mistaken idea that a few people in one place had taken on, but that everyone knew that that was the arrangement that our military record would reflect that time in the AVG. Even the pilots who later on signed up to go into the U.S. Army Air Corps were not given credit for that time. FRANK BORING: What were your expectations - I mean even before you got on the boat? What were your expectations of what you were going to find when you arrived in China? JOE ROSBERT: Well my first expectation was that I was going to have a good time on the ship and when we were gathered in the room just before sailing time, the man who was in charge of seeing us off said "and now of course we have to put somebody in charge of this group that will see that you get to Rangoon in one piece and that person will be Joe Rosbert." And I looked around to see who that was and then I realized that they had - without even consulting me - had put me in charge of this group. My face fell a little bit because I could see that this was going to be quite a chore. All these guys had already been celebrating for about 3 or 4 days in San Francisco. �They all had guns; they all were ready to go. But it turned out pretty well. We had some great adventures on the way. It took us about a month and a half to get from San Francisco to Rangoon and I did have some trouble makers to contend with and they practically gave the Captain of the ship apoplexy because some of them one night got drunk and wound up in the crow’s nest and were looking for Japanese ships on the horizon and really drove the crew crazy on the ship. But other than that it was an interesting experience, that month and a half traveling to Rangoon. FRANK BORING: You were told originally that you were going to China. How did it affect you that you suddenly realized you were going to Rangoon? Did they tell you why you were going to Rangoon? JOE ROSBERT: Yes. That was the port that was open. You see, the main purpose of this group was to be to protect the supply line known as the Burma Road. And the starting point of the Burma Road was Rangoon which was the port where all the supplies came in, because everything along the coastal areas of China had been taken by the Japanese. All the port cities and the areas around them were occupied by the Japanese military. So yes, we were advised that we were going there to protect the Burma Road, we'd go to Rangoon and from Rangoon we would go to a staging area in the middle of Burma, and after we had acquainted ourselves with the P-40 and learned a few tactics from Chennault, we would go to China. That was the whole purpose of the group, which we were going to be headquartered in Kunming, China and so we were prepared for that part of it. Now they did tell us "you probably will never see a Japanese enemy plane, but if you do when you shoot down a Japanese plane, you will be paid $500.00 for each plane. Now that was a verbal thing. But the Chinese Government was the one that administered that payment and we did get paid the $500.00 for each plane later on. One of the things - I don't know whether you're interested in this detail - but as we went along they had given me a certain sum of money to take care of any expenses that came up. By the time we got down to Indonesia and then went �up to Singapore, we were broke and I tell you, these guys had bar bills on that ship and the ship only went as far as Singapore. We had to arrange for a freighter to go from there to Rangoon. There was no money and all along I was sending cables. I went to see the American Ambassador in Singapore and he - nothing…I went to see the Chinese Ambassador. Well he sent a message to Kunming and finally they delivered money so we could pay the bar bills of the guys to get them off the ship. This Captain of the ship he said "we can't let those guys go." They were practically imprisoned. Then of course, I had the money to pay for this freighter. I took them all out - they were raising such hell - I took them - this guy on the freighter was really a tough Captain. I said "look, I need a favor from you - I know we're not sailing for 2 or 3 days but I'd like to bring these guys down now". He said "bring 'em down now they won't get off this ship." So I don't know whether that's interesting or not - I mean for what you want to do. FRANK BORING: There was supposedly a level of secrecy to what you were doing the fact that you were going over there under - you weren't going as pilots, you were going as salesmen and all this kind of stuff. Can you tell us a little bit more about that, in terms of what you went under and really how secret was this whole mission? JOE ROSBERT: The mission, right from the beginning was very hush-hush. When we got to San Francisco, and put up in the hotel, one of the things that they did - they sent us down to the Federal Building to get passports and we were told that we would be given, among other things, categories that had nothing to do with aviation. Some people were listed as engineers, some as farm experts for agriculture and things like that and they even had one fellow that was listed as a missionary and there were missionaries on every one of these Dutch ships. On one Sunday they called knowing he was listed as a missionary, called him up to give the sermon and actually he did a pretty good job. He did give a sermon and the missionaries thought he was legitimate. But that was the kind of secrecy we had and also the American Consuls and Embassies in �the cities where the ship stopped didn't know very much at all, it was kept very quiet and the Chinese Consul in Singapore, where I had to arrange for trans-shipment because the original Dutch ship that we were on, that was the end of their trip, he had an inkling and he did send a message and get a response to where we could get enough money to get everybody out of hock on the ship and pay their bills and put them up in hotels, but I tell you, it was a wild group and they caused so much trouble in the hotel, that I had arranged with this freighter to take them on and the Captain, he was a tough guy, he said "just bring them down and I'll see that they don't get off the ship." I did, I herded them all in taxi cabs and took them down to the ship, except for a few of us pilots who were in the Raffles Hotel. We enjoyed another 2 or 3 days before we got on the freighter. But it was a pretty secret thing that did not get out. I think that was reflected if we go ahead a little bit and get into the first activities of combat - that the Japanese were really surprised. They had no idea what this group was going to be like and the odds they were against. FRANK BORING: What did you find when you - do you remember who was that guy? Who was the guy who gave the sermon, the missionary? What did you find when you first arrived in Rangoon? JOE ROSBERT: Well first of all the trip up the Rangoon River is about - I think 40 or 50 miles before you get to the port and it winds along and this jungle atmosphere was very impressive and the Captain was giving me a run-down like a tourist on what to expect. You could see shining in the sun from miles away the Shwedagon Pagoda, a Buddhist temple that was covered with gold leaf and he gave me the name of it and some statistics about it, etc. until finally we got up - there were ships parked all along the middle of this river because the supplies were coming in for the Burma Road and we had to anchor out in the middle of the river and then they ushered us ashore with boats. Rangoon impressed me, as I thought it would be just from the name "Rangoon", it was kind of a romantic place. Of course when you got on shore it wasn't all that romantic. These �people chewed betel nut, and betel nut produces a red spit and all the sidewalks are covered with this red spit and it didn't look too sanitary to us. But they brought us to the Strand Hotel, which was right on the front of the port, almost like a Colonial type building, white wooden building, that the British had built. They gave us lunch there and they told me that they were going to herd this group immediately out to the railroad station and send them on up to Toungoo about 150 miles north in the middle of the jungle. I found out later, because they didn't want them in town for one night, knowing how - I guess from the first group that arrived - that hell was raised, so they wanted to avoid any trouble like that. I stayed over to give an account of the trip and turned in an expense report and then I want the next day on the train alone and I tell you, when I arrived it was dark and the trains that they had, you got into a compartment with no aisle along the train. In other words, it was locked from the outside until you got to the next station and then they would open the door for whatever you had to do, etc. until we got to Toungoo and I heard all these voices outside, banging on the doors and raising hell and they finally got my compartment open. They said "Oh, here he is" and they took me into the little town and then on out to the air strip and everything was blacked out. They took me to where my squadron was, the first squadron and they turned on one light and it was like a long bamboo shack. We had army cots, wooden floors, and big lizards in the ceiling and enamel wash basins to shave in the morning, and 50 gallon drums up above for the water supply. We had 3 huts like that for the three squadrons and then there was a headquarters hut and another one for the mess hall. That was our group, about a mile away from the air strip and that was the set-up and one of the things they told us, among others, was that first of all be sure that your mosquito net is tucked in at night or you're going to wind up with malaria. The other was that in the morning you'd better shake out your boots because they're going to be filled with scorpions. So we had a pretty good welcome to the jungle. �FRANK BORING: What was your first contact with official AVG? Was it CAMCO people, was it Pauli’s people, or was it Chennault's people? What was your first contact with the official AVG people? JOE ROSBERT: In Burma? FRANK BORING: Yeah, when you arrived there - I mean somebody welcomed you? Who was that? JOE ROSBERT: Yes, when I – of course somebody from the office in Rangoon met us and took us to the hotel for lunch and the next morning when I went to the office, that was a CAMCO office. It was staffed by Pauli’s people. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rosbert_Joe_1991-02-21_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosbert, Camile J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-21 Title A name given to the resource Joe Rosbert interview (video and transcript, 1 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Joe Rosbert Joe by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Rosbert served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." He joined the AVG after serving in the US Navy, and remained until it disbanded in 1942. In this tape, Rosbert discusses his background as a naval aviator before being recruited into the American Volunteer Group, in addition to his journey overseas and arrival in Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb15df8a43147ce59b0b87fed7c369f0.mp4 c7141344ba5960fd4e49a71828b9182f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fe08197bf259c62775338e4c57b8b9b1.pdf b22dda943ba71719b77072b890c8f2a2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Camille J. “Joe” Rosbert Date of Interview: 02-21-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] JOE ROSBERT: At this hut, of course, they had a few open light bulbs hanging from this bamboo ceiling where the lizards were living and making terrible sounds at night. I met Sandy Sandell, who was the Squadron Commander of the First Squadron and of course, being late at night there was very little conversation. It was pointed out where my bunk was and as I said it was an army cot with a mosquito netting hanging over it. I was pretty tired so I did sleep through the night but early the next morning a car came by and took me to the mess hall where I had breakfast. Chennault had recruited people to do everything. He had Mess Sergeants and they did an excellent job. He even went so far as to engage two official photographers and later on when we got to Kunming, one of the first things he did was order a photograph taken of everybody - the pilots in the P-40's, sitting in the cockpit, and all the rest of the ground staff and headquarters people, so that when we have a reunion now, there's four groups of photos - First, Second, Third Squadron and Headquarters. But after breakfast they picked me up in a car and - I think it was an old Studebaker - which doesn't exist anymore - but that was what they had, and we went bouncing out to the air strip and I was met by Harvey Greenlaw, who was the Aide of Chennault. Now I had never heard of Chennault before I signed up, having been a navy type. I really didn't know who he was. So Harvey Greenlaw came out and he said - they called him Colonel in those days - "Colonel Chennault would like to see you and have a report on how the trip went and he wants to say a few �words to you." So I went into this austere office in the hangar metal hangar, had nothing else but the metal sheeting on the top and metal walls and open in the front and the office was off on the side and Harvey said "this is Joe Rosbert, he just brought the latest group in" and Chennault was sitting at this desk. He had a pith helmet hanging on the wall behind him. He stood up, he had khaki shorts on and that face that you never forget. I could see right away why they called him "Leatherface" because he had really a rough complexion. But he had a gentle southern voice and he said "Joe, I hear you had a few little troubles on the way with your people and especially some financial troubles, which you got through" and he said "I'm very happy that you brought the group here without losing anybody." And I can tell you, I was impressed with him right from the beginning and in the days to come where he gave lectures on the Japanese airplanes, the Japanese pilots and how they operated and I thought right away that I had made the right decision, because this was a guy I wanted to work for. FRANK BORING: After the initial meeting with Chennault, as I understand it you went immediately into training - or was it classroom - he called it "Kindergarten" - were you involved in that kindergarten? JOE ROSBERT: Oh sure. The first thing that happened before the schooling by Chennault. Now mind you, he was a teacher so he knew how to teach people from his old days in the classroom. But I was assigned to a U.S. Army Air Corps type who knew the P-40 and was a Flight Leader in the First Squadron, Bob Little. And Bob said "Well you've got the manual for the plane. When you go home tonight you read through that manual and then we'll go over the thing in the morning." I looked and that manual was very thin - a few pages - and I went through the thing and studied it pretty thoroughly and thought that I knew what was in there and I figured well now I'll get quite a bit more from Bob Little when I went to the air strip the next day, but it turned out that he took me to the P40, he said "get in the cockpit", he said "you've studied the manual", he said "here it all is like it's in the manual, I can't tell �you anymore". And the only way you checked out in the fighter plane with one seat is to get in there and start the engine and go down the runway and take off and that's what I did. And once again, when I got in the air with that P-40 after having flown the PBY in the Navy, I knew that this was for me. Now a few of our guys did get discouraged when they got to the jungle and saw the situation and turned around and went home, but the majority of us I'm sure felt like I did, that this was for us. Now to go on from learning to fly the P-40 - we flew quite frequently to become accustomed and simulated dog fights in the air - but I thought it was very impressive, the lectures that Chennault gave us. He treated us like school kids as far as knowing that we didn't have any comprehension of what the Japanese were like, had no experience, probably had never read anything about the Japanese or the Far East. So he had all the intelligence information about the Japanese airplanes, all the types, what their advantages and disadvantages were and also he knew the philosophy of the Japanese pilot. He had studied that with the Chinese and he told us (phone rings)… FRANK BORING: When you get into talking about incidents or what not, you're talking about people, you could mention their names if you remember them and anything that you remember about them - first impressions about them - as much of the personal as possible. Two of the people we're going to be asking you about are Harvey Greenlaw and also Olga, when you first met up with her. JOE ROSBERT: Unfortunately I wasn't one of the ones that got involved with her but she was a striking character. FRANK BORING: I read her book. Okay, so at this point we'll start with the schooling. JOE ROSBERT: With General Chennault's experience as a teacher, he knew how to get across the main items of what we were going to be involved in. Basically the types of Japanese planes that we were going to �encounter, their characteristics, their advantages and disadvantages and what's more, the philosophy of the Japanese pilots, which was rather important because one of the things he impressed upon us was that we had to have rubber necks in a fighter plane. In other words, if you didn't have a rubber neck and constantly look around, you were going to get caught and that occasionally you might catch a Japanese pilot who didn't have a rubber neck because they were inclined to finish a combat sequence and head home without looking back. I'm sure that a few of them were shot down under those circumstances. But, as I said, we were impressed by the way he could get things across and what's more important, that he had the information, he had the intelligence information. Later on we found out that he had offered a lot of this intelligence information to the Navy and the Army Air Corps but they never used it, unfortunately, because after Pearl Harbor and the attack on the Philippines and having to fight our way back in the Pacific, our pilots could have used that information to advantage. FRANK BORING: During the early days when you were training, there wasn't an immediate threat of war at that particular point. Tell us about some of the people that you've met. What was your impressions of - you already knew some of the people when you got there - but some of the newcomers that you didn't know of like Greenlaw, and then there's the nurses were there at that time and Olga Greenlaw had also shown up on the scene. What were the social aspects of those early days, who did you meet and what were your impressions? JOE ROSBERT: Well one of the first things that we had to do - our buddies in the same squadron - like Bob Little and Dick Rossi - we all have to go downtown together because the first thing you get is a pair of mosquito boots that came up to about mid-calf and you must have khaki shorts and a khaki shirt, but above all you have to have a pith helmet. So we proceeded to go down to this little village of Toungoo and go to the tailor. The most interesting part was getting measured for the mosquito boots because all you did was put your foot down on a piece of paper and the Chinese boot maker drew a �line around your foot and that was the size, because when the boots were finished they were perfect. So we were all dressed up now, once you got that costume, you went down the street and bought a bicycle because a bicycle was essential to get around on the air station and also in town. So everybody had a bicycle, everybody had that costume with the mosquito boots and khaki shorts and shirt and the pith helmet. In that respect we were sort of uniform although we really didn't wear uniforms. Then from there of course we got into a little bit of the social activities, which consisted mainly of Chennault's favorite, softball, it was a softball team and we had two nurses, they came out and cheered. Red Foster and I forget the other gal's name right off hand, but we were impressed with them. They seemed very professional. We had two doctors, Doc Gentry, who was the Chief Flight Surgeon. His second in command, you might say, of the medical department, Doc Richards. And then we had a dentist, Doctor Bruce. So more and more we could see that this was a complete entity, this outfit. And incidentally, to go back, when we left San Francisco, we marked all of our belongings - foot locker and what have you - with FAVG - we were the First American Volunteer Group. A lot of people in recent years have said that we didn't even know in our group that there were to be other groups, but we knew that. The word was that there were to be three groups, First, Second and Third. The second group was to be a bomber group, and the third was to be another fighter group. Of course Pearl Harbor stopped all of that. So everything we had in Toungoo was FAVG. Later on that became just simply AVG when we knew that there were not going to be any other groups. But Harvey Greenlaw was a very friendly fellow. Some people said that he wasn't too capable, but I guess he served the purpose at the time, because he did a lot of foot work and seemed to do the bidding of Chennault the way he liked it, and of course he built up the morale of the group through his wife. She apparently was a very friendly lady and some of our pilots made friends with her and I guess that boosted the social life quite a bit. Fortunately, Dick Rossi and I were church goers; we went to church on Sunday, and never got involved in that, but we heard �stories, especially after we got up to Kunming. But she kept a diary of the group and preserved the record of what we did and I think it's a rather concise diary of what happened. She was a striking woman who a lot of people don't even know what her true background was. We thought that maybe she was part Russian, part Mexican. But anyway the mixture was interesting. FRANK BORING: What was your relationship to the ground crew, Crew Chiefs? I mean these guys were responsible for keeping your airplane in shape which ultimately would keep you alive or dead up in the air. What was your relationship with them? JOE ROSBERT: The relationship with the ground staff was unique in that there was no military distinction like you have in a military organization, especially an American organization where the officers don't socialize with the enlisted people. There were no officers and enlisted men in our group. One of the things we found, we didn't know how capable they were, but we had armorers, we had crew chiefs that we found out as we went along were unequalled, hard to beat. Of course they became friends that you wouldn't find in any other type of organization, especially a military one. Any pilot from the AVG will tell you that this was an element without which we could never have done what we did. FRANK BORING: It was often spoken, this spirit, this can-do spirit that developed during the early days and became very intense during the initial battles. When you go up in an airplane, I would imagine it's very important to feel that that airplane was ready to fly. If you could somehow touch upon just some of the things that you talked about with the crew chiefs, not so much detail technically and what not, but what were the kind of things that you guys discussed before you actually got into an airplane to go up? JOE ROSBERT: One of the things that the crew chiefs did was give us a lot of confidence. And I can tell you that in all my experience in the AVG, I was told that the plane was ready, I never had any �mechanical trouble with the P-40 that I flew, never. And that will instill a lot of confidence in a pilot. But the other thing, they could improvise and get the plane back in the air with the least amount of effort and it was mainly due to their knowledge of the airplane and the meticulous way in which they took care of them. Each crew chief figured that this was his own - almost felt like he was flying in the airplane. I came back from a combat mission one time out of Rangoon, where I engaged bombers that had a tail gunner on each one. Our procedure of course was to maintain altitude and speed, dive on the plane, come around again and get that altitude back, and continue with that kind of a procedure, never getting yourself in a position where you lost the altitude advantage. When I got back from this one mission, when I pulled up to the line the crew chief said "what's wrong with your rudder?" and I said "I didn't feel anything wrong with it" and he said "well take a look" and I got out of the cockpit and looked back and half of the rudder was shot off. That didn't faze him a bit, he just went and got some masking tape, taped up that rudder and within about a half an hour the plane was ready to go on another mission. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rosbert_Joe_1991-02-21_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosbert, Camile J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-21 Title A name given to the resource Joe Rosbert interview (video and transcript, 2 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Joe Rosbert Joe by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying TIgers. Rosbert served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." He joined the AVG after serving in the US Navy, and remained until it disbanded in 1942. In this tape, Rosbert describes his first meeting with General Chennault and how impressed he was with Chennault and his teachings, in addition to his relationship with the ground crew. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33b8331c9bfa890858c1e5761330b183.mp4 ba4e510f467642627a2ac2a03fef7dd2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3fcaf10f23df3c921b33f902e5a65557.pdf d439a3161b0a7d7567a9a884c6f43adc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Camille J. “Joe” Rosbert Date of Interview: 02-21-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: This is a question that sort of goes back to something we talked about before. The first AVG was the idea of - and then you're going to have a second bombing group - were you aware of the plans to bomb Japan at that time. I mean when they told you about the second bombing group and the third fighter groups coming out were you aware - did you know anything about Chennault's plans? I know you know about it now because you've read his books and all that, but at that time? JOE ROSBERT: When we were recruited and after we spent our early days in Burma, there was never any word about what the plans for the groups were when we got to China. We knew that the Japanese had certain seasons where, like in the winter the weather was good in Kunming, they would bomb Kunming. The weather was very poor in the winter in Chunking so they stayed away from there until the spring when the weather started to improve. As far as the use of that second AVG, the bomber group was concerned, we likewise were not told anything about what the plans were. Nor were we told anything about the plans for the third group. All we knew was that we had one entity of three squadrons of fighters and that we were there to protect the Burma Road. That was the main thing that was told us and as we went along we were not told anymore. In other words, the missions came up one right after the other, especially when we went to Rangoon. You see after the first fight in Kunming where ten bombers came from Hanoi to start the �winter season of bombing, they never came back to try to bomb Kunming again after we engaged them. Then of course we went to Rangoon and the Third Squadron had already been there, the Second Squadron had been there. We, in the First Squadron, we were the last ones in Rangoon before it fell to the Japanese ground forces. The Japanese, first they came with bombers. When we shot down bombers, they came with bombers and fighter escort. We shot down bombers and fighter escort and pretty soon, for some reason, they were only sending fighters over Rangoon. They figured there must be some way to defeat whatever is happening to us. But it didn't work. The only thing that they accomplished was not in the air, it was on the ground and we had to move out of Rangoon when the ground forces approached. FRANK BORING: Before we get into December, what was your first relationship with the Chinese there and were you involved at all with any of the Chinese there, either the Generals or the top brass or just mechanics or anything like that? JOE ROSBERT: The Chinese were sort of an auxiliary force that was to assist the headquarters and assist the crew chiefs and the armorers in doing tasks that they asked them to do. We had very little contact with the Chinese. I'm talking about the pilots now. Of course Chennault was in contact with the Chinese Air Force officers and people like Tiger Wong Shu Ming came into the picture. He was part of the Chinese Air Force organization in Kunming and other officers that he consulted with all the time about what the Japanese were doing, their activities, etc. The Chinese had a pretty good grapevine bamboo radio you might say. Chennault had in the early days of getting this organized, set up a ground warning net with Chinese all over the areas that we were operating in with crank telephones that they would send messages in to key stations that we had set up with our own people, and then they would in turn contact Chennault in headquarters, so that we got warning about what the Japanese were doing. �FRANK BORING: What was the first indications that - just before Pearl Harbor - did you have any anticipation of trouble to come? I mean you were preparing to fight, the whole reason you were there was you were preparing to fight, but just before Pearl Harbor and then if you would explain what happened after Pearl Harbor, but was there any anticipation or any realization that you were going to be fighting soon? JOE ROSBERT: In the early days in Toungoo our activities outside of going to this class regularly given by Chennault and once in a while we had to preserve the airplanes so we couldn't fly every day, so we would lounge around and listen to records and talk and whatever, and there was practically no talk about engagement with the Japanese, about the war. We thought that nothing would happen until we went to China. In other words, we were in a staging area in the middle of the jungles in Burma, so we weren't worried about anything. We had one alert where somebody said they thought they saw a Japanese observation plane fly over. The sirens went off and everybody's standing on the brakes with the engines going, waiting for information to go up and - nothing happened. So naturally we were cool. We didn't think anything was going to happen before Pearl Harbor occurred. FRANK BORING: What is your recollection of the day that you heard that Pearl Harbor had been hit? JOE ROSBERT: A very exciting thing happened on December 8th. We had a little mimeographed news thing that came out that told us this was going on in Singapore and something in Rangoon, little news items from the States and so on, and this fellow who ran this newspaper had one of those Studebaker's and early in the morning - we would get up before dawn and go to the air strip to be on duty and by about one o'clock the sun was so hot in Burma that everything closed down and you couldn't touch the airplanes. So we had gone out on Monday, December 8th early, and pretty soon this Studebaker came flying out to the air strip and this fellow started throwing �these papers out to us and said "Pearl Harbor has been bombed" and took off and we read this thing and he had typed "Pearl Harbor has been bombed by the Japanese and we think that the Philippines is being attacked and we are keeping in touch with radio stations in different places and we'll have more news as it develops". And we thought we're in it! This is probably what we're here for, and everybody then got pretty excited. Something big is happening. And as the thing developed, the Pearl Harbor thing was a disaster and the Philippines too. I pointed this out many times to people before that - as we came over on that ship, we hit Pearl Harbor, we visited there, we had a good time on the beach at Waikiki, we went to the Philippines, we went out to Cavite and visited friends that we knew from Pensacola, we went down to Borneo, we went to Indonesia, we went up to Singapore where the British were saying "impenetrable fortress", we went to Rangoon. Do you realize that within two to three months all those places fell to the Japanese all over the Pacific? And we thought what's happening here? I mean everything is being lost. And of course then our successes started to come out and we felt pretty good about that. FRANK BORING: Let's talk about your first engagement. Let's talk about the first time it wasn't an alert, it was for real. JOE ROSBERT: I told about this campaign the Japanese had for bombing Chinese cities. We had word that they were going to start bombing Kunming so this is after Pearl Harbor now. Churchill had prevailed upon Chiang Kai-shek and of course, Chennault. At first they said they wanted all three squadrons to go to Rangoon. They prevailed upon them, Chiang Kai-shek and Chennault, to send one squadron down. So the Third Squadron went to Rangoon. Our other two squadrons prepared to go to Kunming because we knew something was going to start happening there. The Japanese were going to bomb. The day that we got the two squadrons together and got ready to go, something happened with the weather and we delayed the flight to Kunming. When we did get together the next day and now mind you these two squadrons went together, we had a �mimeographed sheet that showed Toungoo, Burma, showed a place in the foothills of the Himalayas where you turn to go to Kunming, and that was all. It had those two headings. We had just barely enough gas to get to Kunming, and what's more, this was the biggest flight of AVG planes that ever got together all during the war, both the First and Second Squadrons flew to Kunming. Now when we got to Kunming and landed, we were almost out of gas. But we made it without any problems. Nobody got in any trouble. But we got the word that the Japanese had just bombed Kunming. They had killed dozens of people and of course knocked out a lot of buildings etc., so we went into town that afternoon and had a chance to see what a bombing raid does to a town. The people that were killed and injured had already been pretty much removed, but you could see the debris from the shops and buildings, rubble in the streets, and we were sort of angry that we had missed by one day encountering the Japanese. We all said we're going to get those S.O.B's. Sure enough, they didn't come the next day. We were all on the alert. We had a couple of alert shacks, the P-40's all lined up. We had - you see these pictures where people run out with these parachutes on their backs and they're waddling - no, the parachutes are in the cockpit. You jump in and put the parachute on, you don't run along the ground and have an accident and break your leg when you're supposed to go up and shoot down Japanese. But anyway, the first word was that there were ten Japanese bombers that had crossed the Indo-China border and were headed towards Kunming. I don't know whether you know what a sphincter muscle is, but if that sphincter muscle doesn't hold, you're bound to have an accident in an airplane and I always felt fortunate that mine held and I think everybody else's did, but it starts to work. You're sitting in that plane waiting for information. We had terrible radio sets that somebody had bought in the Philippines that had nothing to do with the military plane. They were terrible and all they did was garble and garble and you could just barely get the work. They said "Okay, the First Squadron take off." I think we had twelve planes - not the whole squadron - "12 planes go ahead and take off - we had the direction �from which they were coming - intercept them". I think Ed Rector who was in the Second Squadron managed to somehow get permission to take off. He wasn't supposed to leave, but he joined in the fight and we got up to altitude, we knew that we were above the Japanese bombers, and pretty soon there's a formation of 10 Japanese planes. We'd never seen a Japanese plane in the air and here they came. We knew we had them because they were not very close to Kunming. I guess we intercepted them maybe 20 minutes out from the city. Well the first thing they did when they saw us was they turned around and started going the other way, no bombs or anything; they never got to the target. There's a little bit of conjecture about the number of planes we shot down, but we made passes on those 10 bombers. I thought that we saw only six headed back after that first engagement. There have been some reports that there were seven that headed back. But I understand that only one of those planes survived that combat, that some of them crashed on the way home, some crashed on landing at Hanoi where they came from. But after that fight, you turn around after a combat, it only takes a short time and we had no maps, and I can tell you those mountains around Kunming all looked the same. Unless you could spot a landmark, and we didn't know any landmarks except that lake at Kunming, you're sunk. Ed Rector ran out of gas and we thought that he was a goner, but the Chinese called in and said that he landed okay, he's all right. I looked around, there wasn't anybody. Pretty soon my Flight Leader, Ed Leibolt, who later lost an arm, flew up alongside of me and said follow me, gave a motion. Then there was another plane that joined up with us, Carl Brown, and we three flew along. I had the faith in Ed Leibolt. Pretty soon we came over a ridge and there was a lake, but that was not the Kunming Lake. We didn't really now it at the time, there was another lake down south of the Kunming Lake and we kept going and pretty soon we came over the Kunming Lake, we came in and landed, when we got out of the planes I said to Ed Leibolt "did you really know where you were?" He kind of smiled as if to say "I wish he wouldn't answer that question" because I don't think he knew where he was either. But we all got home okay �with no casualties and all the planes were all right. That was our first experience in combat and of course the ground personnel, the crew chiefs and the armorers were all asking questions and all exuberant "how many planes were shot down" and a lot of excitement. Then as I said for the next few weeks nothing happened at Kunming. All the action was taking place down in Rangoon and now we're all saying "when are we going to get down to Rangoon?" Well after about two or three weeks of operation in Rangoon, the Third Squadron was rotated back to Kunming, the Second Squadron went down and the First Squadron. FRANK BORING: This was your first engagement with the enemy. Was this the first time you'd ever gone into battle? JOE ROSBERT: I could tell you that nobody in the AVG had ever been in battle, except in a street brawl or something like that. No, there was no idea what that combat experience was going to be like. I can tell you that you never lose that nervous feeling from the time that you're told to scramble and you jump in the airplane and you wait and they say "okay, go". Then you go up and spot the enemy and then you engage them in combat, it's always a nervous feeling, you never lose that. You get a little more confident as you go along, and of course we had very few losses which gave us even more confidence, but we did lose some people and many of us came back with bullet holes in our planes. We knew that they were shooting real stuff at us. But we had that confidence that was reflected from Chennault himself and right through our initial successes. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rosbert_Joe_1991-02-21_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosbert, Camile J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-21 Title A name given to the resource Joe Rosbert interview (video and transcript, 3 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Joe Rosbert Joe by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying TIgers. Rosbert served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." He joined the AVG after serving in the US Navy, and remained until it disbanded in 1942. In this tape, Rosbert discusses his first impressions of working with the Chinese as a part of the AVG and how the news of Pearl Harbor affected their operations in the days ahead. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78372fa67de48ef4ce30f7e5b2295196.mp4 a4361f468b3f63bd8e6eae5c74321f99 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/345c08b74e635174e66aa7dbdb76a184.pdf 37a6938316be87c06cac259501c268bd PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Camille J. “Joe” Rosbert Date of Interview: 02-21-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: … the enthusiasm of the crew chiefs and everything else, what was the reaction of the Chinese people? JOE ROSBERT: Is that I loved you from the beginning, was your voice. You know how the Russians have a voice. After all this exuberance with the ground crew and the pilots talking to each other and Ed Rector coming back safely and all that, we were all feeling in pretty good spirits, but nothing like what happened the next day when Harvey Greenlaw came in to the alert shack and he said "you fellows are heroes and you better pretty yourselves up because the town is turning out and they want to show their appreciation." So everybody's combing their - we looked like a bunch of bums - but we did slick up a little bit, but everybody had a different costume on and we got out and we all lined up and here coming down the winding road to the entrance to the airport was a procession, led by the Mayor and other officials of the town and all these pretty little school kids, with those typical haircuts straight across the brow with the bangs, and they were all carrying flowers and a purple scarf. Each one had a purple scarf and they all marched up. I don't think they'd ever seen an American pilot before. They looked at us in awe and they gave flowers to a few people and then they came along where we were lined up and gave each one of us one of those purple scarves. I can tell you there was a tear in the eye because they were so appreciative. Most of us took those scarves home and �hung them up in our quarters and kept them for the rest of the time we were there. FRANK BORING: At that point the Chinese now were aware of who you were and what you were there for, later times when you would go into town, what was the reaction of the Chinese people when you would go into town? JOE ROSBERT: The reaction of the people in Kunming continued in that sort of an effervescent fashion. We'd go into a shop and outside would be all these kids and smiling faces all around the doorway, all looking in and laughing and saying "meg wo ren" which is Chinese for American and that hardly ever ceased, that didn't wear off them. They kept up that feeling of appreciation and admiration for what had been done. Like I said the Japanese never came back all the time we were there, so they began to take on a tranquil feeling about what was going on. Oh yeah, they thought we were big heroes and were doing a wonderful thing for the Chinese. FRANK BORING: What was the next stage, if you will, of the AVG? You had your first confrontation, the other guys had gone off to fight, there was a rotation going on. Then when did you go back into battle again? JOE ROSBERT: Well then when it came time for the First Squadron to have its round in Rangoon, we didn't know how long this was going to continue, the campaign in Rangoon. But Sandell said "we can't send the whole squadron, so we're going to draw cards to see who will go in the next contingent of about 12 pilots." Unfortunately, on that first round I lost and 12 other pilots went off. Then within a few days things got so hectic in Rangoon that they said "okay six more pilots" and I was in that group, but we didn't have any planes available. We flew by CNAC to Lashio. Now mind you, CNAC didn't even want to fly down into Rangoon at that time. Things were so bad at the Airdrome with all this military action going on, bombing the Airdrome every night, bombing the wharfs down on the port, bombing all kinds of targets, which we had to take the �train from Lashio to Rangoon. When we arrived in Rangoon on the train, there was an air raid warning going on. Dick Rossi was out there to meet us and we commandeered a couple of - we carried sidearms you know - a couple of taxis and jumped in those things and drove out of town to a place where we stayed overnight, it was a small hotel. But Dick said the British and Scottish in the Burma Oil Company have kindly consented to let us stay in their homes. So Dick was billeted with Michelson in one house and I was billeted next door in the neighbor's house with Greg Boyington, which for two or three weeks was quite an experience. He was a good Marine-trained pilot, he was the only regular officer in the AVG and we would go on the alert and I remember when we were told to scramble one time he came tearing out of the alert shack with nothing but his skivvies on, we all jumped in the airplanes and he went into combat with his underwear. Afterwards we would take the planes to what we called satellite airports and we would put the planes there for the night and drive home in cars and then the next day we would go and pick them up and bring them to Mingaladon Airdrome. After driving back home, the host in the home where we were staying would greet us with - the servants would draw a hot bath and we'd have a scotch and soda and we could relax. I remember one little incident where decided to go in town - this was during the last few days in Rangoon. As we drove in, everything was blacked out, you drove the cars without any lights, with just a little slit in the headlight. You could hardly see anything. We went around sort of a little traffic circle and there was a jeep turned over and we jumped out and said "what's happened?" And here's a guy under this jeep with his arm and his leg sticking out from under. We said "oh that guy must be dead". Greg said let's get those couple of guys over there and we all got under the thing and lifted the jeep up, and when we lifted the jeep up this British guy popped out of there as if nothing had happened to him. He was a pretty strong guy and I don't know whether I did my part in lifting that jeep, but I know he did. And we went into town and things were a mess. The natives were breaking into shops and busting crates down on the docks and they had some cosmetics �they had broken into and they were putting this cold cream on their faces and dancing around, everybody was going crazy because that was just about the end of Rangoon. Within a couple days, I think, one night a mechanic came and knocked on the door and he said "the British have pulled out all of the radio gear. There's no way to go into combat and find your way back here and we just have to leave." Bob Neale had given him instructions to get Rossi and Michelson, myself and Boyington and all the other guys out to the field and we took off with what planes were left, while the ground crew went north on the highway and the Japanese are coming in the other highway about 30-35 miles away. But we had lots of combat activity during those 2 or 3 weeks. I think I mentioned that they would come over with bombers, then bombers and fighters, and then maybe they'd have 75 fighters alone. Every time we'd go up they would try to get us in a dog fight. Bill Bartling used to say they used to do the bee hive trick. They'd make like a bee hive with bees flying around with hopes to get you in there and then they could come around and get on your tail and shoot you down. But we didn't fall for that. We'd go in and hit the sides of the thing and pretty soon they would disperse and head home. But we did some strafing missions. The strafing missions for the AVG were the most dangerous things and if you know anything about aerial combat, like the Japanese would ring an airport with antiaircraft fire and you had to fly through it if you were going to hit the target, so we lost Jack Newkirk to them on one of the flights into Thailand, we lost a couple of other guys from ground fire, Black Mack McGarry and we lost Charlie Mott. Ed Leibolt went out. We didn't ever know whatever happened to him. But we had one interesting strafing mission where we went to Moulmein. Moulmein was a big base for the Japanese. The moved up through the Malay Peninsula. They had one satellite field a few miles south of there. They had lots of planes on both of these fields. So Bob Neale said we'll go at dawn, we'll go down and hit that satellite field and then come around to the east of Moulmein Airport and come in from the sun and hit Moulmein before they have a chance to do anything. Well it was probably somewhat of a mistake to hit �that satellite field first because we destroyed quite a few planes there but then they were alerted up at Moulmein. But if you can call it funny, one of the funniest things that happened was that when we started to strafe Moulmein, here are these Japanese pilots getting into the airplanes as we're strafing the line of airplanes. Now some of them did get off and of course we were down very low strafing, so after a few passes and knocking off quite a few planes and pilots, we took off across that bay to Rangoon almost full throttle because if they got on your tail they could shoot you down. But we didn't lose any planes in that battle over Moulmein. FRANK BORING: At any given time how many of your planes lasted in the air? I mean they would drive up these strafing missions and you're going against all these planes. How many of you guys were up there? JOE ROSBERT: Eight, ten, twelve. We could hardly ever get more than that in the air. We were lucky if we ever got say sixteen or seventeen. It was one of those things where the planes had to be worked on. You could only send them back up so often. Once in a while at Mingaladon Airdrome, we'd come back, they'd gas the plane up, we'd jump right in the plane and go out again. They'd say there were more Japanese planes coming. I guess they just figured they would overwhelm us by numbers and they also were confident that the British ground forces were just collapsing all over the place and that they were going to take the area anyway by ground. And that's exactly what happened. The British wound up - I forget the number of the squadron - but by the time we got up to Loiwing, China just across the border, the British had one airplane left and let's say it was the 326th Fighter Squadron, there was an alert and we all took off in a scramble and here goes this British guy, we'd say "there goes the 327th Fighter Squadron" and sure enough they finally lost that plane. But they just for some reason couldn't get their intelligence together with the ground forces. We went on one mission where we escorted British bombers and we never went again for the reason that their intelligence sent them on a mission where they bombed their own troops. So naturally we said the hell �with that, we're not escorting bombers to bomb British troops. But it was sad in a lot of respects like that, that everything was crumbling. Of course, as everybody knows, they took all of Burma. FRANK BORING: How do you account for your successes against such overwhelming odds, against the Japanese? JOE ROSBERT: Our successes were due, first of all by the fact that we all had military training. We were all pretty experienced in our job from the military. Then there was Chennault's leadership with his expertise in teaching and all the intelligence information he had gathered, plus the fact that I think the initial successes just bred more success. People were, although still cautious and careful about what they did, became more and more confident and just knocked the hell out of the Japanese. FRANK BORING: But one thing that's really very difficult for me to understand is that at any given time you'll have maybe six airplanes in the air and yet you knew these brand new airplanes were just coming over in waves and waves and waves. Didn't you think about it or you just go up and you just fought? JOE ROSBERT: We didn't think about the numbers. The numbers didn't bother us at all because we knew we could get away from them. And they never really - outside of maybe one or two that were shot down they never overwhelmed us in a combat to the point where let's say everybody was scared and lost their confidence and ran away. It never happened. FRANK BORING: When you were up there in this bee hive, what was the strategy? Did you actually follow Chennault's theories and his tactics? JOE ROSBERT: Absolutely. The tactics that Chennault taught us were the only things that really saved us besides our military background and the fact that we knew how to fly airplanes. The numbers of the Japanese planes never made a big impression on us, never did. �Because if you go into combat against those numbers and you don't lose any pilots or you lose very few, you figure you must be doing something right. That success just continued, it never stopped. Later on we went to the Kweilin - Hengyang area and just knocked the fannies off the Japanese as they came in. FRANK BORING: Now in all this time, the legend, if you will, was starting to build up. First of all you had never heard this term before and then all of a sudden people started calling you Fei Hu "Flying Tigers". Newspaper people were coming over, movie crews were coming over, you were hearing stories about what was being said about you. Comment on that. You were fighting and you had these circumstances you were under, but what's this thing that started to develop, this legend that began? JOE ROSBERT: I don't think that legend of the Flying Tigers really hit us at the time we were engaged in combat. The stories built up and it's like a lot of people have always said to me "wasn't that rough over there?" and I always say that I didn't know it was rough until I got home and people started telling me it was rough. It was sort of the same thing about the Flying Tigers, that legend - story - started with the Chinese and with the Press and I don't think we were really impressed with that story at that time. Later on they said we were heroes and all that. The one thing that we thought about later was that probably the reason for that legend, of a legendary picture, was that we were losing everywhere. The British were defeated. We were losing in the Philippines, we were losing in the South Pacific and it took us about 3 or 4 years before the tide of the war started changing in the Pacific. At the time we operated, we were the only bright star on the horizon, so naturally it was compounded by the fact that we were sort of an isolated case and our lack of losses and the fact that we did shoot down a lot of Japanese airplanes for what we lost. So it was a good investment. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rosbert_Joe_1991-02-21_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosbert, Camile J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-21 Title A name given to the resource Joe Rosbert interview (video and transcript, 4 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Joe Rosbert Joe by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying TIgers. Rosbert served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." He joined the AVG after serving in the US Navy, and remained until it disbanded in 1942. In this tape, Rosbert describes the reaction of the Chinese people to the heroics of the Flying Tigers, his account for their success, and the legend that started to develop around them. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4aec9e349c945d2e4350c5525e9f4211.mp4 636da8865ea5da4dd506928b16208896 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/012e9b2c665749aaa1790113f7c8d322.pdf e51d28f0ea3db791ea1024b2e527330c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Camille J. “Joe” Rosbert Date of Interview: 02-21-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] JOE ROSBERT: The trouble in having accidents and falling down drunk (I don't want to say that) but he was a pretty good drinker and he was always getting into trouble. Now naturally he made a big success in the South Pacific because he gave them a squadron of misfits that they thought, well Boyington's going to fall on his fanny and he didn't, he made a big success of it. FRANK BORING: He was keyed to trying to get Sandell out too, wasn't he? All right let's talk about Sandell and if you want to go into Boyington that's up to you. But there was some controversy, as I understand it around Sandell and his leadership. I wonder if you could elaborate on that? JOE ROSBERT: Sandell, my Squadron Leader, we called him Sandy, was more of a military-minded leader than I think the other Squadron Leaders were. He wasn't too flexible in that respect and maybe because of that, and the fact that we were, I'll say, an informal group, there was some feeling that maybe somebody would be better, but nothing was ever pushed in that respect. As the course of events after he was killed in the crash in Rangoon testing an airplane, Bob Neale took over and was more of a flexible type. Of course the action was picking up more at that point, so he got into more activity where he became the top ace in the AVG. But as far as any kind of real controversy, I can't say that I felt that. I just felt that he was kind of a stern fellow for the type of group we had. The other �Squadron Leaders, Arvid Olson and Jack Newkirk and Tex Hill, Bob Neale, they weren't quite that way, but everybody's different, so I'd had that relationship of a pilot to his Squadron Leader and I never felt real strong resentment against Sandell. And of course that whole thing, if there was any feeling, was overtaken by events. FRANK BORING: So very close friendships developed in that period. In terms of your going up in the battle and then you come back and wondering who else was going to come back, who do you think affected you the most in terms of who didn't come back? Whose death really affected you the most? JOE ROSBERT: Well the one that I almost had a feeling for when we were in Toungoo when they decided to send the Third Squadron to Rangoon and First and Second went to Kunming, I waved goodbye to my good friend Hank Gilbert, who was in the group of ten pilots on my ship when we came over from San Francisco and Carl Brown was also in that group of ten. One night in Kunming, at night, Carl Brown came to greet me and he said "I've got some sad news". And I said "It's Hank Gilbert". And sure enough he was shot down. Now he was the youngest pilot we had and if anything hit me all through the AVG, I would say that was probably the hardest, because I knew him real well from that trip across. But other than that, the other pilots that were lost, and of course three of them came back, Charlie Mott and Black Mac McGarry and Bishop, there wasn't that feeling. I didn't know any of those people that well. Now there was one other one that I knew fairly well and he was rather an amusing fellow, had been at North Island, Tom Cole. He was shot down in the early action in Rangoon and he also was on my ship. But it didn't quite hit me like that first one with Hank Gilbert. But the things that you see in the movies and you read about in books, where this type of occurrence knocks you down and ruins your nerves and you get all dramatic - no, not a bit. The news came. That was a fate accompli, and the next day you went on with whatever had to be done. There were no - that I know of in our whole group - dramatics about the people that were lost. �Not that we were hard-hearted or anything, but it was just that feeling, well I'm still surviving and somebody has to go. FRANK BORING: Would you say part of it is that you knew what you were getting into, I mean you knew you were going up against odds, you knew you were going to be fighting against some enemy that was out to kill you? Was there like a kind of certainty? JOE ROSBERT: Oh yeah, you knew that when you were in combat that they were shooting real bullets at you. But I don't think anybody - I know I didn't - had the idea that you were going to be next. Nobody, to my mind, ever went out with that attitude, ever. I think we lost most of those people before we got into combat. They took a look at the situation, they went home. And it was probably good they did. FRANK BORING: Regarding that same subject, not just the Tigers, but you see a lot of other books and movies talk about when a pilot doesn't come back, he's got all his gear there and it sort of gets distributed about. What was the policy, so to speak, regarding that, what happened? I mean a locker full of stuff was left there. JOE ROSBERT: When somebody went down in combat, there was somebody appointed that knew him to take care of his belongings. Now he would decide that there were a lot of things there, no point sending home. What's the use of sending the fellow's gun home or his skivvies or whatever, so things like that would be disposed of in the group, or however he wanted to do it and then it would be some things that they thought the family might want that they would pack up and send home. FRANK BORING: I understand there was an incident involving your premature loss of certain items and what not. JOE ROSBERT: Well of course that came later when I crashed in the Himalayas Mountains. �FRANK ROSBERT: Oh that's right. One thing we sort of touched on, and to me it's a very fascinating - is a description of the fall of Rangoon. I mean it must have been a total zoo! And in fact, they let the zoo animals out or something didn't they? JOE ROSBERT: Well the population in Rangoon were more the zoo than any animals. Oh I tell you, those Indians and Burmese, they went crazy in the last days of Rangoon. It was hardly safe to go into the town. In fact we were told it's better not to. But we did make that one foray into town to look around and see what was happening. But they were busting up everything. They just knew that the Japanese were coming in. In fact, I think some of them who planned to stay there decided to bust things up to tell the Japanese that they were helping them so they wouldn't get into trouble after the occupation. FRANK ROSBERT: There was a period towards the end where you were fighting constantly. I've been told there was very little sleep at times and you'd have to get into an airplane and go up and fight and then come back and exhaustion started to set in. What was that period like towards the end of AVG? JOE ROSBERT: Towards the end of the AVG? FRANK BORING: Was that when the real heavy concentration of fighting was going on? JOE ROSBERT: The heaviest fighting we had in the AVG was in the Rangoon campaign. Now later on, there was some action around the Salween River and bombings of Paoshan and that area. That was fairly active for just a few days. Then Dick Rossi and I flew up to Chunking with a group of other pilots because they thought they were going to bomb Chunking and Chennault got word that the Japanese were going to avoid Chunking for a little while and bomb the Kweilin area. So we were ordered to go down there one afternoon and arrive at dark and they had this headquarters in a cave there. We lined up our planes on the end of the runway and �went up in the cave and the next morning we were on alert before dawn and word came through - there was a Chinese interpreter there who was getting the messages from the Chinese - and Chennault was putting pins on a map showing these Japanese planes that had taken off from around the Canton area and were headed towards Kweilin. That was probably the calmest feeling that we had, if you can say that you ever got calm in combat, because pretty soon Chennault said "okay this is the time to go, get up to altitude and intercept them. They're coming in at such and such a direction." We did and I was just behind Bob Neale, we were in this formation, it was a beautiful day and I spotted the Japanese formation coming in and I fired. You could see the tracers, you know, if you pulled the trigger and he spotted that right away and I pointed down there and we all went down after them. We had a combat like that around Kweilin and the Hengyang area and it was at that point after all this business in Rangoon on the last days, that Bob Neale actually was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. He says that maybe he even did have a nervous breakdown and that of course leads into this business of the Army Air Corps taking over the AVG and how we were treated and what happened at that point. But the activity after the Rangoon campaign was one bad - I say bad in respect that it was a very dangerous operation, which was a raid on Chiang Mai in Thailand. And Tex Hill can tell you more about that because he was on that raid and that's where Jack Newkirk was shot down ground strafing. I think actually they ground strafed some tanks and trucks and he was hit and that was the end of him. But other than that the campaigns around Kweilin, Hengyang, were much milder - if I can use that word -than Chiang Mai raid or the campaign in Rangoon. FRANK BORING: When did you first start hearing the rumors that AVG was going to change its status, so to speak, become incorporated into another form into the American military? JOE ROSBERT: Along about April in the spring of '42. Chennault didn't put out any official notice or anything, but the word spread because there had �been Army Air Corps types flying in there, General Stillwell came and they were looking around and the General spread the word that when July came that that was probably going to be the end of the AVG. Within a very short time, the notice came out that he was made Brigadier General in command of what was to be the Army Air Corps operation after our group was disbanded. We heard that there was a General by the name of Bissell who was going to be in charge of the recruiting program. I thought that was strange because they thought enough of Chennault's record that he could be appointed the Commanding General of the new Air Force in China, but not a good enough man to recruit his own people. Now that doesn't mean that he couldn't contact his own individual men and talk to them. But the official man in charge of the recruiting was General Bissell and that proved to be a disaster because they got us in a hall in Kunming during that period. Here we are with side arms and a little bit of beard and fairly tough looking customers, which didn't seem to faze General Bissell at all. He stood up and said among other things that you have to join the U.S. Military out here, because if you don't, when you set foot on United States soil, you're going to be drafted as Privates, and besides, you're going to have trouble getting home. Now this contract that we had was a round-trip affair and nobody, including Chennault, had ever talked to us or taken that attitude with us before. So you know what rhymes with Bissell, that's what everybody said to him and they walked out and they only recruited five pilots. It was a shame because we had the experience and could teach - they sent a bunch of Second Lieutenants in to replace us that hardly were more than out of flight school. It really was a shame. FRANK BORING: Before you walked into that meeting with Bissell, what was your intention? I mean you knew that your contract was running out, what was your actual intention? JOE ROSBERT: Before that meeting, I didn't have much thought about it. I hadn't really given it much attention. The word had spread and the notice �that Chennault was made a General and it was more a sad feeling than anything. Here our group is going to disappear after July. I really didn’t know what I was going to do. I talked to some of the other pilots and they were disgusted with this display by Bissell. You see they set up a board and they were going to go around from Kunming to Chunking, Kweilin, places like that and interview the people individually, ground staff and the pilots. Many of them said "I don't even want to talk to that Board." Not interested. Now later on, many of those pilots went back and joined their own respective services and served in the war. Chuck Older came back to China and some of the other pilots came back to China. It wasn't as if everybody just wanted to throw up their hands and go home. It was that they were disgusted with the way Bissell handled the whole thing. FRANK BORING: Did you ever meet Stillwell? JOE ROSBERT: Yeah, casually. FRANK BORING: What was your reaction to him - just first impressions - what was? JOE ROSBERT: We were sitting on the alert in Kunming at the airport, when here came a B25. We had word that there was a plane coming into the area so that we wouldn't scramble and shoot it down, so we were told that this Army Air Corps B25 was coming in and pretty soon it landed, pulled up to the line and off that airplane came this fellow who looked like he was from the First World War with a campaign hat on. He didn't really have wrapped leggings but it looked like he had them on and everybody said "Who is that?" And somebody said "I think that's General Stillwell." And they still said "Who is that?" And that was the first impression that we had that here was some relic from the First World War that appeared on the scene. We didn't know what he was going to do at the time, had no idea what his future was in the theater. But then later on we all formed stronger opinions about him and especially �his relations with General Chennault and with Chiang Kai-shek. As you know, later on he was eventually removed from his Command. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rosbert_Joe_1991-02-21_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosbert, Camile J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-21 Title A name given to the resource Joe Rosbert interview (video and transcript, 5 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Joe Rosbert Joe by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying TIgers. Rosbert served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." He joined the AVG after serving in the US Navy, and remained until it disbanded in 1942. In this tape, Rosbert discusses the close friendships that developed within the AVG squadrons and the losses that affected him the most, in addition to the final days of the AVG and the meeting with General Bissell. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fef5bb34999c5ad8781848e9b90dde90.mp4 6a07266ff4939ec2a03aeb66439167c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bfabf83c1bc3b98053b6903a46834b1d.pdf 2733da9bdbcef7a0a0bd274a0e81c05e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Camille J. “Joe” Rosbert Date of Interview: 02-21-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] JOE ROSBERT: So those events overtook the Stillwell situation and it wasn't till later really that we learned of the relationship and what happened with Stillwell and Chennault. FRANK BORING: Looking back on it now your impressions about this controversy between Stillwell and Chennault… JOE ROSBERT: After that first meeting or that first sighting of Stillwell when he came in, we later learned that he was going to have a prominent position as the Commanding General of the combined forces in China and we thought once again, like the Bissell incident, that here's another fracas that's going to happen because we learned that he was a ground forces fanatic and of course, Chennault was all air force and that there was bound to be a clash. It turned out that way and Stillwell, I always though, made an ass of himself by going down on the ground in Burma and marching out his little battalion when he was the Commanding General in the area and what was happening in the area headquarters all the time he was marching out of there. But the upshot of that was that he and Chennault never saw eye-to-eye on anything. Eventually this got to the Generalissimo who used what influence he could and Stillwell was finally removed from his Command. FRANK BORING: Did you ever meet the Generalissimo? �JOE ROSBERT: Oh yeah, many times. FRANK BORING: Give us some ideas of what was your first impression of him and then later impressions? JOE ROSBERT: Well the first impression we had of the Generalissimo was after we had been in combat for a while. The Chinese Air Force, through Madame Chiang Kai-shek, decided to decorate us. We already had Chinese wings, you know. We wore Chinese Air Force wings. They got us together and the Madame, the General Chiang Kaishek came for the ceremony where we were decorated. I, at that point, didn't know much about the Generalissimo, except that he was the head of the government and the whole program against the Japanese and that probably that was the reason we were there to help him do the job against the Japanese. He looked like a very tough-minded person. He had a shaved head and to me he looked pretty capable of strong measures. Now later on I knew him pretty well and the family in Taiwan and I thought he was a capable politician, but events in China took over after the war was over and the Communists had built up such a strength in cahoots with the Soviet Union, that they defeated the Nationalists on the mainland so we wound up in Taiwan. I thought he was capable under the circumstances. With the way the situation was in China, lack of communications, they always were the last ones to receive consideration. The European Theater being the prize, as far as the politicians in Washington were concerned. So he had a tough circumstance to overcome and I thought he did pretty well. FRANK BORING: What were your impressions of Madame Chiang Kai-shek? JOE ROSBERT: Well when she called us her Flying Tiger Angels and the Darlings of the CAF, I tell you, everybody just melted. She was an orator. She could speak better than English than you or I. She was a terrific speaker and kind of a spell-binder. When she got up and made a talk, she could really make you feel emotional. �FRANK BORING: Did you have much to do with her? I mean did she come to see the AVG? JOE ROSBERT: She sort of considered the AVG her baby, in a way. I guess because of her education in the United States and the fact that she knew more about our people than the Generalissimo did. But she, I would say, took over and sort of was our best sponsor in the Chinese government. FRANK BORING: Did you ever have any contact with Tiger Wong? JOE ROSBERT: I only knew him rather casually in those days because we really didn’t know too many of the Chinese officers. Naturally, with that nickname we heard of him and we knew that he was connected. But as far as knowing him as a person, no, I did not. I only got to know him later on Taiwan. FRANK BORING: How about P.Y. Shu? JOE ROSBERT: P.Y. Shu of course was like the faithful puppy. He was constantly at Chennault's side. He was always outside his office for the General to call at any moment and he, from the day that the General arrived in China, he joined up with him because he was like a Secretary in the Chinese Air Force. Not in the office sense, but a Secretary in the official sense. Because of his English capability, he joined up with the General right away, I think around 1937 and was at his side when we arrived in Kunming and stayed with him until the General died. FRANK BORING: Did you have any interactions with him? Was he somebody you considered a friend? JOE ROSBERT: Oh yes. P.Y. was a friend of all of us in the executive branch of CAT, which was Chennault's airline later on. But in those days in Kunming, we didn't have much to do with P.Y., we just knew he was there all the time. �FRANK BORING: You touched upon Chiang Kai-shek, you said that you considered him a capable leader given the circumstances. Do you have any opinions on the statement that he was spending more time fighting the Communists than he was the Japanese? Did you ever get that kind of impression? JOE ROSBERT: During the war when we were there in the AVG and engaged in our operation I really didn't know too much about that situation vis-a-vis the Communists. I don't think in those early days, '41-'42, that there was that kind of a big campaign. Now you've got to remember that Sun Yat-sen, who founded the new Nationalist movement in China, and Chiang Kai-shek were rabid antiCommunists. They fought the Communists from 1923 when they first started up in Shanghai. Of course when they made that long march up through Yin En [?], they were pursued and wound up with a fairly small force. Now they built that up as the war went on and I think that Chiang Kai-shek's feeling and his actions against the Communists as they built up that force in cahoots with the Soviet Union, then he became more and more in pursuit of the Communists. But I don't think he ever considered them any greater a threat at that time than the Japanese, but I think that feeling did build up as they went along. FRANK BORING: There was a feeling that came across in the accounts in the books and also in some of our interviews that towards the end of the period before July 4th, a sense of exhaustion. Not so much morale being that bad, but just a sense of exhaustion. That it was time to take a break. Did you feel that yourself? Or were you ready to keep going another year of fighting? JOE ROSBERT: I didn't feel any sense of exhaustion. I was disturbed by the attitude that the hierarchy in the U.S. Army Air Corps took, the attitude they took, that we were just like any other group. Okay if we didn't take their offer, so be it. But there were some people that felt some sense like that, that they better get out of there. But I think that for �the majority, that decision was made by the circumstances surrounding the recruitment program. I really believe that if Chennault, not only had been appointed the Commanding General of this new air group, but had been told that he was in charge of the recruitment program and go to it and do the best he could to recruit all these people, that there would have been a lot more people stay on. In spite of the fact that everybody thought that one of the things that should have been offered was maybe a brief respite of a couple of weeks or whatever, either in another area or actually in the States. I almost got the feeling from the attitude of the military that they weren't too anxious for Chennault to get a big group of us to continue on. I just had that sense. Now maybe that wasn't exactly right, but the 17 of us who joined CNAC, for instance, that subsidiary of Pan American, did so with the idea that this was an improvement over what had been offered and that they were kind enough to say yes, we realize your situation and you may have a vacation. The U.S. military didn't take that attitude. But as far as the exhaustion was concerned, no I don't think there was a large number of people that felt exhausted. After all, when we went with CNAC, the 17 of us who did, flew the hump, which is one of the worst routes in the world. We flew that hard. So I don't think that it was a question of exhaustion. I think it was more the treatment and the fact that there should have been some consideration given to how long we had been in combat. FRANK BORING: Was there a pilot's revolt? Was there actually a confrontation with Chennault where the pilots said "we've had enough?" JOE ROSBERT: No, there was no confrontation where they said we had enough. But there was a group that got together and approached him and said that they didn't think that we should do anymore strafing missions, that they were too dangerous, that we had lost Jack Newkirk and Black Mac McGarry and before that we had lost Charlie Mott and that they didn't think that was worth the possible losses, and they were dangerous missions, pretty bad. But that �occurred just during the short period of time and I think that Chennault did agree in principle, but maybe that wasn't productive. FRANK BORING: That actually was part of your - I mean you were not a military unit in a sense that this was not really considered insubordination or anything, was it? I mean was it common to go to Chennault and say I disagree with this or I don't like this? JOE ROSBERT: Well I could tell you that during that whole period and until July, this was a few months. You know we were only in combat 7 months. I think that from that incident the thing continued on for another 2 or 3 months at least. In other words, nobody at that point went to Chennault and said "I quit". They never were threatening in that respect. FRANK BORING: What was it like to work with Chennault, I mean in terms of a dayto-day operation? I mean he was a Colonel but you often said that the rank thing was not the same as in the military, you didn't have to salute people and whatnot, but what was it like to work with Chennault? JOE ROSBERT: Chennault lived in that hostel with the pilots on the west side of Kunming. The First Squadron had a separate billet between town on the east side and the airport. He was with those people quite a bit. But in the day-to-day operation of the AVG, there was very little contact with the personnel and Chennault. As far as his being a Colonel, he was sort of an honorary Colonel in the CAF. He really didn't with us have any kind of connotation of a military position. Everybody knew that he was the head of the organization, but he never impressed you when he was around you that he was the Chief. He did insist that when they played softball, that he was the pitcher, but other than that he never imposed himself in a hard way on any of us. Now he did call Boyington in and tell him after several incidents where Boyington injured himself, he crashed in a P-40 on takeoff and almost killed himself. He called him in and said "Greg, if I don't send you home you're going to kill yourself." �And he did send him home and was probably justified in doing it. But Boyington always took the position that "he was no military general in command of me and had no right to send me home." But of course Chennault had the right to send anybody home. FRANK BORING: There was not much saluting and things like that around, but I understand that some guys did salute Chennault. JOE ROSBERT: I never saw him saluted, never. Now Tex Hill and Ed Rector and a few of those people that were in that other hostel can tell you more about that, but I never saw anybody salute Chennault. FRANK BORING: Or anybody else? JOE ROSBERT: No, never. FRANK ROSBERT: Given the fact that it was a loose group, I mean it was an organized group in the sense that when you got up in the air, as I understand it Chennault's basic rules were that when you're on the ground you're pretty much - you've got your duties to do and whatnot, but when you're in the air you've got to do it a certain way. But on the ground there was a certain amount of partying and sort of a loose kind of atmosphere as I understand it? Was that pretty much true and was it a hard drinking, hard playing group of guys? JOE ROSBERT: At times there was some partying and hard drinking, but not as a regular thing. Now the pilots in the AVG had no duties. During the day, the most that we had to do was play Red Dog and I got myself a typewriter and a typing book and taught myself how to type and a few other guys did a couple of productive things, but other than that everybody was just on the alert and either took a nap on the cot or played Red Dog or whatever. There was never any hard drinking at all as far as being on duty was concerned. Oh that was out, absolutely. And usually it occurred like after maybe 4 or 5 days on duty, then you'd have one or two days off. You wouldn't �even go to the airfield and then you were free to do what you wanted. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rosbert_Joe_1991-02-21_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosbert, Camile J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-21 Title A name given to the resource Joe Rosbert interview (video and transcript, 6 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Joe Rosbert Joe by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying TIgers. Rosbert served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." He joined the AVG after serving in the US Navy, and remained until it disbanded in 1942. In this tape, Rosbert discusses the controversy between Stillwell and Chennault, the feelings within the group during their final weeks, and the off-duty pastimes of the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/379103f0433b56848a813ba28cdfc804.mp4 be9177c02f08c60903bda2684ee50f1e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91c864558fdf39e9436c53c2823dbae0.pdf 7dedf57f0028d9b4a4d42a63e8a6b948 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Camille J. “Joe” Rosbert Date of Interview: 02-21-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] - audio only JOE ROSBERT: Air Corps came in now like this spring of '42, they set up a supply route from India and the only way to get there was to fly the stuff over the hump, so all the stuff that Chennault needed including gasoline, was flown over the hump. Now Pan Am at that point in around May or June of '42 had signed the contract with the Army Air Corps to fly supplies over the hump, using CNAC as the named party in the contract. So that's how we happened to join, but it was a Pan American operation. FRANK BORING: Looking back now, what do you thing was your particular contribution or proud moments with AVG? JOE ROSBERT: I would say one of the proud moments was when I arrived in Toungoo and saw the P-40's and met Chennault. That I had made the right decision and that was reflected in many proud moments like that Kunming incident I told you about with townspeople coming out, losing a couple of friends. Above all, I would say, the great success we had against the Japanese and the feeling of accomplishment that we had done something in the war. FRANK ROSBERT: In terms of history where do you think AVG stands - where are they in all of this whole scheme of China and America? JOE ROSBERT: The AVG to my mind stands out as the only bright star that shone at that time from December until July when we were disbanded. I �think that every theory or idea that Chennault had about tactics was brought out during that period and served well the U.S. Army Air Corps in the two or three years to come in the war in China. FRANK BORING: You had a long period of time in China and you spent a lot of time doing different things out there, the CAT, CNAC, the hump. Where does AVG fit in terms of your personal history? How does that fit into how you evaluate your life? JOE ROSBERT: I think as far as my own personal history is concerned the AVG fits in as a young, starry-eyed Naval Aviator who went to the Far East and didn't know anything about what was going on in that mysterious world and it took me those seven months, not only to make a record in the air, but understanding what was going on with the Chinese people. FRANK BORING: What captured you about that? What was it about the Chinese that made you stay out there so long? JOE ROSBERT: One thing about the Chinese, they have a philosophy of life that involves patience to the point where no American can understand it. They used to build those runways in Kunming and we used to say "there are those Chinese again making little ones out of big ones". They had a hammer and pounding the rocks until they got small enough until they could spread them out and make a runway. We had a plane make a crash landing in a river and it sank. This was up near Hengyang towards the last days and everybody said "well that's the end of that P-40". Not the Chinese. They got bamboo poles, they submerged them, tied them to that plane, oneby-one, by the hundreds, until finally the P-40 floated and they pulled it ashore. But that's the kind of things they could do with their patience and the other thing is, we didn't know it at the time, but we found out as we went along, that the Chinese have a terrific sense of humor, unlike the Japanese. The Japanese are hard, the Chinese, to my mind, are a soft people. Once you have a Chinese friend, he can't do enough for you. And the other thing I liked �about the Chinese in China, they did everything on a handshake. They didn't have lawyers, they didn't have contracts. You made a deal and that was it. It was part of their honor. That didn't mean that they wouldn't take advantage of a situation, but they would stick by their word. So those are my remembrances of the Chinese. FRANK BORING: Why did you stay in China so long? JOE ROSBERT: Well, for one thing, we formed the Flying Tiger Line in Los Angeles and General Chennault, he was a retired General at that time, came by our base in Mines Field in California, which is now Los Angeles International Airport, and told us about a franchise that he had obtained through the efforts of Madame Chiang Kaishek and Chiang Kai-shek himself for his work that he had done in China through the war years, and would any of us be interested in joining the operation and I seized the chance and not only that, after being in China for about six months, I met my wife, a beautiful Russian woman, and we had three kids out there. So I sort of got enamored with the way of life and the Chinese and how they did things. FRANK BORING: Just incorporate what it is and you'd say that's what guys would do mostly… JOE ROSBERT: I mentioned that the pilots in the AVG, when they were on the alert had no duties except wait for a scramble. We either rested or read books or we gambled and the game that we gambled on was Red Dog. I find that a lot of people don't know what that game is, but it was a turning of the card by the dealer and you betting that you could beat the card. When that pot built up because we were using Chinese money, built up to a mountain, and you lost, they had to count all that money. So that took quite a bit of time. But it was a gambling game where you bet against the dealer turning up a card that you could beat. �FRANK BORING: One final question, Joe. What do you think the AVG meant to China? JOE ROSBERT: Well China had been bombed by the Japanese. You need to have the picture of the Japanese having moved into North China and down to Shanghai, and then taking all the port cities, all the way down to taking Hong Kong, which was not part of China at the time. They invaded Hong Kong, they had Canton, they had Amoy, they had Shanghai, and then of course they had all the northern cities. This meant defeat upon defeat and I think that when we came along and started hitting the Japanese when they had no air force to go against them, and that they just had to suffer these bombings of their cities - because the Japanese bombed mostly cities, they weren't interested particularly in the airports, there was no air force - so they bombed the cities. And since we stemmed that tide, I think the Chinese never forgot that. That spread like wildfire all through China. Right from Kunming, Chunking was the war time capital, up through Chunking, down to Kweilin, Hengyang and then of course later on the air force was instrumental in helping to defeat the Japanese completely. But we were the first ones that stemmed the tide and I think that's why they remember that the most. FRANK BORING: Is there anything that you recall that is particularly… We've got some more tape left, I certainly want to hear it. JOE ROSBERT: Before I was promoted to Flight Leader, I was a Wing man and I had a Flight Leader by the name of Matt Kuykendall and as I said on our days off we were free, we didn't have much to do at our hostel between the airport and town, we had a little bar where we would go and have a few libations now and then. On this particular day - of course we were carrying guns and we got a little obstreperous and started shooting - supposedly shooting at each other and having a duel, but really shooting up in the air and somehow or another Harvey Greenlaw was in the area of our hostel, or somebody said "hey you'd better come and save these �guys from themselves". So he came along and he said "you guys are subject to Court Martial." He said "I have to make this report on what happened and you will be advised." So sure enough we got a notice that we were going to have a Court Martial and so I got hold of - from one of the Air Force types - a Court Martial Book of Regulations, and in there it said the inspecting officer of the case cannot serve on the Court Martial Board. You know pilots to Chennault were everything and when we were called into this room the General was at the head of the table, Harvey Greenlaw was there and somebody else and Matt Kuykendall and myself. The General called the Court Martial to order and I said "General I'd like to say something." He said "Okay". So I said "The inspecting officer of a Court Martial cannot serve on the Court Martial". He smiled and he turned to Harvey Greenlaw and he said "Harvey is that right?" and Harvey said "Yeah, I think that is right". And he said "Well Harvey, I guess you'll have to be excused". And the upshot of it was that the General said "Well you know you guys could have caused a lot of trouble. I'm fining you $100.00 each and don't do it again". That was one case of how a little bit of off time and celebrating could get you into trouble. Another similar case to that - I told you that when we went down to Rangoon, we didn't have any planes, we took the train from Lashio to Rangoon and we had a lot of beer on that train. We got out at Mandalay and it was night time and we had our guns and we're drinking beer shooting things up and finally John Farrell and another one of the pilots, I can't remember his name now, but they started an argument with each other, and I said "Okay you guys, if you're going to be that way, you better go back-to-back" - now, mind you, it's dark out, you couldn't see a damn thing. I said "I'll count off and then you can turn around and you can start shooting." So we did, I counted off, they stumbled down in the dark, hell they're shooting up in the air, they couldn't hit an elephant with a big bat, and nothing really happened, but something could have happened. A guy could have been shot, but nobody ever got shot in the AVG that I know of. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Rosbert_Joe_1991-02-21_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosbert, Camile J. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-21 Title A name given to the resource Joe Rosbert interview (video and transcript, 7 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Joe Rosbert Joe by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying TIgers. Rosbert served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as a Flight Leader in the 1st Squadron "Adam and Eve." He joined the AVG after serving in the US Navy, and remained until it disbanded in 1942. In this tape, Rosbert discusses his proudest moments in the American Volunteer Group and their place in history as a bright star for China and America. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46c8a78589a3b949bd524b1225f47f6b.pdf 0e520de7ebb1de8384439a979a36d009 PDF Text Text • • -- community planning and management MASTER PLAN �FROM THE LIBRARY QFj , Planning & Zoning Center, Inc~ ROSE TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION Thomas Hardy, Chairman Peg Thorsby, Vice Chairman Clarence Gordon Larry Sweeney Donald Walls Grant Ward Larry Whittlie.f Kathryn McKenney, P.C. Secretary ROSE TOWNSHIP BOARD -I I I I I 'I_ Michael Izzo, Supervisor Dorothy Gibbard, Clerk Joyce Slaughter, Treasurer Francis Trimmer, Trustee Clarence Gordon, Trustee TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE BY: Tod J. Kilroy, AICP Community Planning & Management, P.C. 48970 Schoenherr Road Utica, MI 48087 (313) 247-7500 �• ROSE TOWNSHIP MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM Table of Contents Page Section 1 - Regional Setting & Historical Development 1 Section 2 - Land Use Report 4 Section 3 - Physical Development Characteristics 13 Section 4 - Community Facilities Report 20 Section 5 - Population Study 26 Section 6 - Economic Base Study 41 Section • • • . . 7 - Goals and Objectives 54 Section 8 - Thoroughfare Plan 60 Section 9 - Future Land Use Plan 64 �~ • -II II I I I I I I I I I I ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM REGIONAL SETTING & HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT ' SECTION 1 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Commission Prepared by : Community Planning & Management , P . C. �l I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I REGIONAL SETTING The Township of Rose comprises approximately 35 . 8 square miles in area and is located in the northwest section of Oakland County , Michigan . Refer to the attached Location Map for a visual placement of the Township in the Detroit - Flint area context . It is bounded on the west by Tyrone Township, on the south by Highland Township , on the east by Springfield Township and on the north by Holly Township and the Village of Holly . Concerning the relationship to the urban centers in the region, Rose Township is located midway between Flint and Pontiac. The driving distance to Plint is within fourteen miles and to Pontiac is nineteen miles. The distance to the central business district of Detroit is approximately 50 miles . Rose Township is relatively rural in nature when compared to the rapidly urbanizing southern and eastern township ' s in the County. Rose Township is midway between two major thoroughfares , which provide convenient transportation to the north and south . The most significant roadway is the I - 75 Expressway , which is three and one half miles east of the Township . Another nearby major road is U. S . 23 which is located 3½ miles to the west of the Township . Both highway facilities link the Township with the urban centers to the north and south . East - west access is available through M- 59 which is four miles south of Rose in Highland Township . 1 �-I M 46 I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I 194 CAN A DA (\J If) ~ \ , Location Map ___ - - --- M IC HI 0 H I 0 for AN -- - -- ROSE TWP. OAK L AND COUNTY , M ICHIGAN �• • • • • " HISTORICAL SKETCH Rose Township was created by an act of legislature of March 11, 1837 with the first township meeting being held at the home of David Gage on April 3, 1837. John Wendell was chosen as Supervisor and Henry Phelps as Township Clerk . The southeast portion of the Township is an extension of the so-called White Lake Plain. Several of the plains within the Township were originally covered by scattered growths of oak and wild roses. The marshes contained tamarack trees as well as the mosquitoes which helped to spread the malaria which was so prevalent in early Michigan pioneering days. The water area in Rose Township covers about 1,000 acres which includes some 45 lakes and ponds. Originally called Long Lake, Tipsico Lake was renamed for an Indian chief. Most of the other lakes and the ponds cover from 3 to 80 acres, and most of the drainage within the Township is into the various branches of the Shiawassee River. The first land entry was made by Daniel Hammond and I.N. Voorheis on June 8, 1835. Improvements were first made by John C. Garner, but the first actual settlement was made by Daniel Danielson in 1835. He built a log house, the first in the Township, and was on the west side of the Indian trail which is now identified as White Lake Road. A post office was established in 1837-1838 on the Indian trail, to accommodate the settlers in the vicinity of Buckhorn Lake with John Wendell as the first postmaster. The settlement was first named "Buckhorn" but was changed to "Rose" after the Township was organized. The mail route extended from Pontiac, through Buckhorn, and on to Shiawassee. Mail was carried on horseback and mail horses and stage teams were exchanged at Buckhorn. I I I I • • David Gage opened a "public house" in 1836, but soon built a larger tavern. He also planted the first potatoes in Rose Township. Buckhorn Tavern was built by Ahasuerus W. Buell near the Rose Center cemetery. He also had a store across the road, a shoe shop and a tannery for tanning buckskins, which were made into mittens. Anson Beebe was the proprietor of the Beebe Tavern built in 1836 about 2 miles west of Rose Center, near the Beebe Cemetery . 2 �The first railroad in the Township was the Detroit and Milwaukee, completed in 1860. It traversed the northeastern corner of the Township and is now called the Grand Trunk Western. The Flint and Pere Marquette Railroad was then constructed north to south through the center of the Township and is now called the Chesapeake and Ohio. The first cemetery was laid out in 1837 on land from the Jahr Wendell farm. There are two other cemeteries in Rose, Brookins on S. Fenton Road and Beebe on Fish Lake Road. The small family cemetery on the Davisburg Road, belonging to the Seaver family of years ago, is no longer used. Originally, there were seven district schools which were absorbed by the consolidation of the Holly Area Schools. Four o f the old school houses have been remodeled into homes while two others remain vacant. The first school in Rose was taught by Lucinda Beebe, daughter of Anson, in 1837. • • • •I I I I I Population growth in Rose Township has followed the general pattern of decline and more recent growth that has been evident in the northwest Oakland County area. The first census recorded 415 persons in 1840 and moderate growth continued until 1880. At that point in time the population of the Township was 1,169 persons. For the next 50 years the population declined as people moved from the rural areas to the cities. In 1930, the population level had dropped to 661 persons. Moderate population increases began during the Second World War and have continued to the 1970 level of 2,502 . The recent 1980 Census indicates a total of 4,375 persons living in the Township. The 1980 level represents a 74 percent increase in population levels since 1970 . a �I I • • • ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM LAND USE REPORT I I I • • • SECTION 2 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Commission Prepared by: Community Planning & Management, P.C . �• • • • • INTRODUCTION In order to analyze a community and to provide a reasonable base from which to make current and long range planning recommendations, the existing use of land must be studied. In many cases, existing land uses have already set a pattern in portions of the community. In other areas, there is agricultural, vacant or under-utilized land which may be analyzed for its development and redevelopment potential. This portion of the updated Master Plan presents data on existing land use for the Township as of the Spring of 1980. The result of the land use survey is portrayed on the Existing Land Use Map. The following land use categories were utilized in determining how the use of land would be plotted. Data from the 1972 survey was coordinated with the 1980 study . For consistency, the same land use categories were used . • •I I I I I I • • 4 �I I I I ~ • • • • LAND USE CLASSIFICATION Land uses within Rose Township have been divided into fifteen categories and are as follows: Single Family Residential, Multiple Family Residential, Two Family Residential, Mobile Homes, Commercial, Transportation and Utilities, Industrial, Public & Semi-Public, Recreation, Extractive, Roads, Water, Swamps, Railroads, Agricultural & Vacant. Each category is described below. 1) Single Family Residential This category is composed of detached one family homes. Along with the main residential dwelling, accessory uses such as garages, tool sheds, required yards, and general area of use are included. 2) Multiple-Family Residential This category consists of all apartment, townhouse, quad-plex and similar type unit that contains three or more dwellings within any one structure. 3) Two-Family Residential Enumerated in t his classification are only those dwelling units having two such units in one complete structure. Single family homes converted into a walkup flat situation as well as the more conventional duplex would be categorized here. 4) Mobile Homes Within this classification are found pre-manufactured mobile homes that are brought to the site, placed upon a foundation and/or blocks (piers), and established for single family residential purposes. Areas categorized as mobile homes consist of g roups of such units in a park-like concept, are shown where the use is singly located on land throughout the Township, and also those mobile home subdivision areas found in the Township . 5) Commercial The commercial classification contains all areas used by both local and community commercial sales and services. This includes such uses as neighborhood stores, shopping centers, offices, clinics, beauty salons, barber shops, drugstores, and highway-oriented uses, such as local grocery stores, gas stations, and restaurants . �6) Transportation & Utilities Enumerated in this category are areas used as utility substations, truck terminals and transfer points, rail and bus stations and facilities, and similar uses. 7) Industrial This category includes uses relating to the manufacture and assembly of goods, such as auto parts, explosive parts for national defense, steel stamping plants, land fills, auto wrecking yards and similar land uses . -I I I I I I I I I I • • • 8) Public and Semi-Public This classification is the most general of all categories in that it contains all educational and public facilities in the community. Specific examples of these uses are cemeteries, schools, churches, libraries, public buildings and any utility corridors . 9) Recreation This category includes all land utilized for leisure time activities such as public parks, private camps, public fishing access points, golf courses, and similar uses. 10) Extractive This category is confined primarily to land used for the excavation of raw materials , such as gravel pits, sand pits, and similar mining operations. 11) Roads All public highway rights-of-way are included in this category. Examples include local subdivision streets, collector thoroughfares and major thoroughfares. 12) Water Due to the extensive amount of lake and open water areas within the Township , a specific category was delineated . 13) Swamps Lands included in this category are flood plain areas of lakes and rivers, backwater areas, and those low marshy areas defined on the base map by the Oakland County Planning Commission and the U. S.G.S. Soil Conservation Service Maps . 14) Railroads A specific category of railroads has been delineated as the Township is served by several rail transport lines. The area includes the width of the right-of-way by the length of same . • �I I I I I I I I I I 15) Agricultural & Vacant All lands not included in the above categories are enumerated in this classification. The land actively farmed, passively used (grazing, etc.) and land held as vacant without any apparent use is listed here. LAND USE TABULATION METHODOLOGY This land use study was the second survey of its kind to locally be sponsored within the Township, and care has been taken in the retention of the same land use categories that were used in 1972. Several sources of data were utilized in drafting the completed Land Use Map. The Township Property Line Map served as the base map for the Land Use Survey. Aerial photographs were referenced from the Oakland County Planning Division for reference. Actual field survey of all land parcels took place prior to mapping. The field work was then confirmed by members of the Township Planning Commission. Acreage amounts were obtained from measurement of aerial photographs, the property line base map, and the Township Sidwell maps. I I I I I I • • • 7 �LAND USE ANALYSIS I I I I I I I I I I I I I I • • • I The Existing Land Use Map graphically portrays how each parcel of land is used in the Township during the summer of 1980. Single family residential use accounted for 1,014.5 acres of the land in the 1980 survey. This acreage comprised 4.4% of the total land area of the Township. Multiple family and two-family residential use constituted less than one percent of the land area or approximately 36.2 acres. The mobile homes classification includes the one existing subdivision at the south Village limit of Holly and several scattered locations within the Township. The subdivision area accounts for 60 acres while the scattered sites account for five additional acres. This acreage comprises two-tenths of one percent of the total area of the Township. The commercial category accounts for a relatively small area of Township land. This land use comprises only .03% of the total area of the Township. The majority of land utilized for commercial purposes can be found at the intersection of Rose Center Road and Hickory Ridge Road, at the Milford Road - Fenton Road intersection, and in several isolated locations throughout the Township. Overall, there are 7.0 acres used for commercial purposes in the Township . The transportation and utilities category includes 4.5 acres on Fish Lake Road used as a gas regulator station. The industrial classification constitutes 68 acres of land. This accounts for approximately three-tenths of one percent of the total land area of the Township. Industrial use in Rose consists of the land fill on Rose Center Road near the south Township line. The public and semi-public category accounts for 197.5 acres of land use in the Township. This category includes the churches, cemeteries, governmental lands, and the two electric transmission corridors in the Township. The recreation category constitutes 978.2 acres of land in the Township. This accounts for approximately 4.2 percent of the total land area. Enumerated in this classification are the various parks and camping areas such as the Y.M.C.A. Camp on Hickory Ridge Road, Guardian Angels Camp on Taylor Lake Road, the Campfire Girls Camp on ' Milford Road, and the Detroit Girl Scout Camp on Rattalee Lake Road. The extractive land use classification was enumerated in the 1972 survey because there was some gravel extraction taking place. The 1980 land use field survey recorded that no mining or extraction activity was underway in the entire Township . The area devoted to the highway and road network in Rose accounts for 2.6% of the total land area or 611.5 acres. The road system is made up of several different kinds of roadways. The system 8 �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I of major streets such as Davisburg Road and Milford Road serve major thoroughfares and as direct access to abutting parcels similar to all other local streets in the road network. As is the case with many communities in the Detroit Metropolitan Area, most of the road network locations correspond to the section and one-half section line land divisions. Examples of this locational situation can be found on Rattalee Lake Road, Fish Lake Road, Davisburg Road and portions of Eagle Road. In the majority of local section line roads, the right-of-way was set aside as a four-rod easement which is equivalent to 66 1 in width. As subdivision plats have been presented for recording, these rights-of-way have been expanded to include an area of sixty feet on either side of the road centerline. Therefore, the majority of major streets will eventually be 120 feet in right-of-way. The water and swamp areas make up a significant a mount of land use in the Township. These combined categories account for 8.7 percent of the total acreage in the community. In terms of acres, 1,988.8 acres comprise these categories. These water and swamp areas have been defined by the Oakland County Planning Division base map and this data has been the source of information for the delineation. Examples of areas enumerated under these categories include Tipsico Lake, the Holly Mill Pond, all other lake areas and all the swamp areas. The railroad classification accounts for a total of 108.8 acres of land in the Township. This land area comprises one half of one percent of the total land area of the Township. The agricultural and vacant classification account for the most substantial amount of acreage in that 77.9 percent of the total land area of the Township is so categorized. According to the land use survey, 17,935.9 acres are used as farm land or are classed as vacant land. The following table presents the Land Use Tabulation for the Township based upon the land use survey. Each category discussed above is indicated. �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I • • • LAND USE TABULATION ROSE TOWNSHIP, OAKLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN Acres Category 1. 2. 3, 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 1,014.5 33.3 3.0 65.0 7.0 4.5 68.0 197.5 .978. 2 % of Total 4.40 0.14 0.01 0.28 0.03 0.01 0.29 0.85 Single Family Residential Multiple Family Residential Two Family Residential Mobile Homes Commercial Transportation & Utilities Industrial Public & Semi-Public Recreation Extractive Roads Water Swamps Railroads Agricultural & Vacant 851.1 108.8 17,939.4 2.65 5.00 3.70 0.50 77.90 TOTALS 23,019.5 100.00 -0- 611.5 1,137.7 4.24 -0- SOURCE: Field Survey and data compilation by Community Planning and Management, P.C. and Rose Township Planning Commission members, August, 1980. An overview of the current land use situation in the Township reveals that the Township is predominantly vacant with very little intensive development. The rural character is borne out by the statistic of 78 percent vacant land. There are no real intense urban or concentrated forms of development in the Township. The residential land use activity has continued to be the predominant pattern in that 4.4 percent of the total Township area is devoted to thise use. Much of the more recent residential development has been on large acreage parcels with moderate gains in some of the subdivision areas. Newer uses have been added along private roads which have been regulated by Township Ordinance. The obvious lack of any sewer and water facilities has contributed to the emphasis of large lot single family development. 10 �EXISTING LAND USE ,0 II • • •I ,~ • 0 J I I -:/ ~ ~21~ ./ ~ ~ + f l ~ ~-llll¾-----1-~~l---+-+---f· ];__ -~ QJ c:::::::J AGRtCUUURE 8 UNUSED SPACE ~ -c:::::J ~ c:z1 COMMERCIAL tNOUSTRlAL TRANSPORTATION 6 UTILITlES MUITIPLE FAMILY ~ PuBUC 6 SEMI - PUBLIC MOBIL£ HOME ~ PARKS 8 RECREATION c=::J: Slt'1GL£ FAMILY 1c::J TWO FAMllY ~ VACANT STRUCTURE ROSE TOWNSHIP . ....... OltlU...WC)C::QVft"fY .. ~ ..... ,,,,______ �-I -I LAND USE COMPARISON ROSE TOWNSHIP 1972 and 1980 Acres 1. .. 2. 3. .. 4. .. 5. 6. I 8. 9. 7. 10. 11. 12. • . 13 . 14. 15. • • • • • • - For 1980 For 1972 For 1980 For 1972 Single Family Residential 719.8 Multiple Family Residential 34.3 Two Family Residential 5.0 Mobile Homes 31.0 Commercial 8.5 Transportation & Utilities 4.5 Industrial 55.9 Public & Semi-Public 9.3 718.4 Recreation Extractive 22.3 Roads 589.3 Water 1,137.7 Swamps 851.1 108.8 Railroads Agricultural & Vacant 18 , 687.7 1,014.5 33-3 3.0 65.0 1.0 4.5 68.0 197.5 978.2 -0611. 5 1,137.7 851.1 108.8 17 , 939 . 4 • 3.10 81. 20 4.40 .14 .01 .28 .03 .01 .29 .85 4.24 -02.65 5.00 3 . 70 0.50 77.90 23,019.5 23,019.5 100.00% 100.00% Category .. Percent of Total TOTALS .13 .03 .10 .03 .02 .20 .04 3.22 .10 2.60 5 . 00 3.70 .so SOURCE: Field Surveys and Data Compilation assistance by Oakland County Planning Division with Rose Township Planning Commission, Dec. 1972; and Community Planning & Management , P.C. with Rose Township Planning Commission, 1980 . The two most obvious changes in the Township land use pattern have been in the residential development category and the publicsemi-public classification. Continued residential growth is evidenced as this category increased almost 300 acres during the eight year period. The mobile home subdivision located at the north end of the Township virtually doubled in size with an easterly e xtension of the development. The extension of the high tension power line across the northern end of the Township added significantly to the public-semi-public category. This new power line accounted for 190 acres being allocated to this land use. The land area was purchased and/or condemned by the Detroit Edison Company and Consumers Power Company to provide for an extension of a major power line across the northern part of Oakland County. , 1 �I I I I I I I I I I I I • • • • • • • Other land use classifications have had moderate changes such as the Recreation acreage increase from 718 acres in 1972 to 978.2 acres in 1980. As the Township has been encouraging private road development the acreage devoted to same has increased by 22 acres during the eight year period. The apparent decrease in commercial use is accounted for in the elimination of several home occupations and/or people actually operating businesses out of their residential dwellings. The extractive area along Rose Center Road has now been completed and no other area in the Township is being mined at present. The land area devoted to the land fill at Rose Center and Pepper Road has increased by 12.1 acres during that period and no other land has been developed for any industrial land use since the 1972 survey. 12 �I I I I I I I I I I I • • • • •II II ~ ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM PHYSICAL DEVELOPMENT CHARACTERISTICS SECTION 3 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Commission Prepared By: Community Planning & Management, P.C. �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I • • • • INTRODUCTION The land is the basic commodity when developing a plan for a community. Reasonable judgments must be guided by it's physical characteristics so as to make practical decisions relative to development proposals. Areas discussed in this report deal with a classification of land types by physical characteristics, the existing topographical conditions, and a description of the basic geology of the area. LAND TYPES* The classification of land by recognizing its topographic, slope, soil, and vegetation characteristics has been accomplished by Veatch and Partridge.* Land within the Township has been divided into seven different land types, each having specific characteristics of its own. The following lists each type with appropriate detailing of characteristics and location within the Township. 1. Map Number 8. ORONOKO LAND TYPE. Hilly knob and basin topography; slopes 2 to 3 times the area of level upland; high percentage of slopes 15 to 25 percent or more; lake basins, dry depressions and swamp basins. Dominant soils sandy loams mainly Bellefontaine, Hillsdale types, with smaller bodies of Coloma and Miami and Fox or Fox-like soils. Comparatively strong relief; some knob and basin; swell and sag filled with peat and muck; extinct lakes. Few streams. Soils mixed sandy loams, sands, and loams. Clay spots. Dominantly sandy loams. Locally bouldery. Forest mixed dominantly oaks-hickory, mixed sugar maple, beech, basswood, cherry, occasional white pine. The Oronoko Land Type is found in six scattered locations in Rose Township. The Tipsico Lake Area south of Demode Road and west of Hickory Ridge Road is designated in this land type. The low lying areas adjacent to Buckhorn Lake Road south of Demode Road also have this designation for land type. Immediately east of the railroad in the same general area this land type is applied. To the east of the Lake Braemer Subdivision and south of Davisburg Road, the Oronoko Land Type is also found. This area projects into Springfield Township on the east. The fifth area in this land type is found in the northeast corner of Rose, east of Rattalee Lake and along Weber Road. The final area of this land type is located north and south of Fenton Road for a distance of one-half mile west of Fish Lake Road • *J.O. Veatch and N.L. Partridge, Michigan State College of Agriculture and Applied Science, Agricultural Experiment Station, Soils & Horticulture Sections, 1934, revised in 1968 • 13 �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I 'ii • 2. Map Number 11. EAU CLAIRE LAND TYPE. Gently rolling till or clay plains; short slopes, few exceeding 15 percent; swales and shallow basins. Dominantly Miami and Hillsdale loam types of soil. May be moderately stony. Minor soils · Washtenaw, Conover, Crosby, Bronson, Bellefontaine. Forest sugar maple, beech, basswood, cherry, elm, hickory, white oak and red oak. Occasional shallow swales or flat basins, holes, but few lake basins or former lake basins now filled with muck. This land type is generally scattered throughout the Township with a major concentration on either side of Hickory Ridge Road from the south Township Line north to Bone Road. The remaining locations are generally small, less than a section in size (640 ac.) and are noted in the following locations: A) B) C) D) E) F) 3. Fenton Road at Fish Lake Road West side of Milford Road north of Davisburg Road Davisburg Road east of Eagle Road West of Eagle Road, south of Parker Road West of Eagle, southeast of Pepper Road Both sides of Milford Road from Ranch Road to south Township Line. Map Number 12. PIPESTONE LAND TYPE. Deeply rolling or broken pitted or dissected clay land, till plains or moraines. Slopes greater in area than level land; constructional swales and basins; generally considerable stream dissection. Dominant soils Miami, Napanee, Hillsdale. Minor bodies of Coloma, Bellefontaine, Washtenaw, muck and peat. More dissected than 11, but dominantly clayey soils, well drained, of the Miami type. Forest oaks, white, red, hickory, basswood, sugar maple, beech, cherry. The Pipestone land type is found in five locations, fairly evenly distributed throughout the Township. The first area is located near Ranch Road and Pool Road. The next area is found on Fish Lake Road from Rose Center Road to Munger Road. Baker Road west of Hickory Ridge is the third location for this land type designation. This area extends northeasterly to Fenton Road, east and west of Hickory Ridge Road. A rather substantial area in the north-central portion of the Township is designated as Pipestone. The area extends from Taylor Lake northeasterly to the Mill Pond, then southeasterly to Hensell Road. The final area of this designation is an extension of the previous area from the Milford-Davisburg Road intersection east on Davisburg Road to Eagle Road. 4. Map Number 15. INDIAN LAKE LAND TYPE. Sand-gravel plains, level surface but containing a large number of dry pot holes, lake basins, muck and peat basins, swampy stream valleys or chains of lakes. Slopes short, enclosing basins, for the most part, but may include those up to 25 percent or more. Dominant soil Fox types; minor soil components Plainfield, 14 ., �,t , ( . .. -:' ,, t ' . r-:: ' 1· ~: ~ !-Y. ::: IC'' • . ... LAND TYPES MAP RosE 8 11 Oronoko Eau Claire - __ ,. .,_ _ .,.., ,...,, TOWNSHIP, OAKLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN 15 19 ., , Indian Lake Oakl and 22 - Wixom �I I I I I I Bronson, Washtenaw (in pot holes and swales) and small bodies of mucks and peats. Deeply pitted lake basins. Chains of lakes. Lake chain rivers. Mostly oak hickory land originally. Red, black and white oaks. Occasionally some juniper (red cedar) sugar maple, elm, beech. Large number, frequency of deep and shallow, pits, lake basins. Lakes numerous. Extinct lakes, muck and peat. Swamps, marshes; a few leatherleaf bogs. This map designation is limited to two areas of the Township. One is located at Fenton Road near Trentor Lake while the other location is found south of Rattalee Lake Road along Eagle Road south to the railroad tracks. 5. I I I I The Oakland land type is found in the central and southeasterly portions of the Township. There are a few isolated locations, however the most significant are found south of Fenton Road and north of Baker Road, and along Buckhorn Lake Road south of Munger Road. The major portion of the Township designated in this land type is located in a crescent shape band beginning at Rose Center Road and Pepper Road, then running northwesterly through the West Wind-Kelly Lake area, then southeasterly and parallel to Rose Center Road to Taylor Lake Road. The Oakland land type, combined with Eau Claire and Pipestone types, represent approximately sixty percent of the Township land area • I • • • Map Number 19. OAKLAND LAND TYPE. Intermediate in gradient and height of relief between land types 11 and 12 on the one hand and 8 on the other; more Hillsdale and Miami than in 8 land type. Slopes exceed area of level land. High percentage of slopes of 8 to 25 percent gradient. Lakes and muck basins common. Dominant soil Hillsdale or sandy Miami; less Bellefontaine, Miami loam, Coloma. Stones characteristic. Mixed oak-hickory, less sugar maple beech than in 11 and 12. Scattered white pine in the wet mucky spots. A few small areas of hemlock. 6. Map Number 21. NOVI LAND TYPE. Flat till plains and Glacial drainage valleys, dominantly clay, semi-wet or hydroperiodic type. Characteristic soil type Crosby, Conover, Brookston • Minor components Macomb, Gilford, Bronson, Granby, muck. Holes but no deep pits or basins. Flat; very minor relief very shallow holes. Absence of lakes. Dominantly clay at shallow depth or at surface. Semi-wet land, not perennially wet on the surface. Mainly elm, red maple, silver maple, ash, hickory, basswood, occasional cottonwood sycamore. This land type is found in two different locations in Rose Township. The first is located north of School Lot Lake between Buckhorn Lake Road and Fish Lake Road, extending approximately one-half mile south of Rattalee Lake Road. The second location includes the area at Rose Center and Buckhorn Lake Road extending west and south to Demode Road 1S �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I II • • • at Fish Lake Road. A narrow band of this land type extends southerly toward Buckhorn Lake Road approximately one-half mile. 7. Map Number 22. WIXOM LAND TYPE. Flat plains or Glacial drainage valleys. Dominantly wet and underlaid by sand and gravel. Dominant soils Gilford, Brady, Granby, Maumee, Carlisle, muck. Minor Brookston and small islands of Fox, Bronson, Berrien and Plainfield. Wet, swampy, semi-swampy high water table soils. Thin covering of wet-sand-gravelcobbles over clay and sandy clay. Some muck soil included. Mostly flat land. These areas may be drainage valleys, till plains flats, outwash flats but not lake basin flats. The Wixom land type is noted in three separate locations. The first location is east of Eagle Road between Sections 24 and 25 extending into Springfield Township on the east. The next location is found south of Buckhorn Lake along the stream bed between the railroad and Buckhorn Lake Road extending to the south Township line. The final area designated as Wixom is along Buckhorn Creek from Davisburg Road north to the Village of Holly. This land type is generally found in stream beds and very swampy areas and is very difficult if not impractical to develop. DRAINAGE BASINS AND TOPOGRAPHY The location of drainage areas, intensive slope areas, flood plains and physically depressed areas will contribute to sound judgment in the selection of land use allocations. The Township is served by two drainage basins, the Huron and the Shiawassee basins. The Huron basin only included the extreme southeast corner of the Township, specifically in the southeast quarter of Section 36. The remainder of Rose is served by the Shiawassee Basin with flow to the north and west. The topography of Rose Township can be characterized as generally rolling in nature with slope orientation to the north and northwest areas. Elevations range from the creek bottoms at 900'-950' above sea level to high points of 1,150' above sea level in the extreme southwest corner of the Township. This general portion of Oakland County has the topographical orientation change that is not evident in any other portion of the north central Oakland area. Slope changes from a southeasterly direction to a northwesterly direction as there is a high ridge which traverses Highland, Rose, Springfield, and Groveland Townships from the southwest to the northeast. Mount Holly in Groveland Township is the northern terminus of this ridge line. Land on the north side of the ridge has a 18 �I I I Rose TowNSHIPJ OAKLAND COUNTYJ MICHIGAN Slopes greater than 12\ Slopes less than S\ SOURCE: Oakland Cty. Plan. Conunission �I I I I I I I I I. I I I I I I I I I I northern terminus of this ridge line. Land on the north side of the ridge has a northern orientation to Holly, Fenton, and Genesee County. Land on the south side of the ridge has topographical orientation to the south and southeast toward Waterford and Pontiac. The drainage patterns follow these general directions. The ridge line with reference to Rose Township is crescent shape beginning at Tipsico Lake and traveling southeasterly toward Clyde Road in . Highland Township. The crescent generally follows Clyde and White Lake Roads crossing the Rose Center-Eagle Roads area and projecting northeast into Springfield Township. Elevations are rolling and fairly sharp slopes existing in the crescent which is interrupted by a stream running parallel to the C & 0 Railroad. Exclusive of the Tipsico Lake area, all drainage is oriented to existing streams which flow northerly. Progressing toward Holly and Fenton (Genesee County), elevations continue to decrease to the 923 foot level at the Mill Pond near the Village of Holly. Recognizing that Rose Township has a relatively gently rolling topography, the areas of excessive slopes over twelve percent in grade are scattered. The only concentratio~ of excessive slope area is found west of Fish Lake Road from Houser Road south to Bone Road. Within this area, the land near Fenton Road is more moderately sloped as compared to land to the north and south. Another area of excessive slopes is located northeast of the Milford-Davisburg Road intersection. There are some steep sloped areas parallel to the C & 0 Railroad along Water Road and at the south end of Tipsico Lake. The only significant concentration of steep areas in the northeast corner of Rose is found south of Tucker Road and west of Weber Road. These slopes are on the north side of Rattalee Lake and in the Camp Holly area. The graphic entitled, "Slope Characteristics" indicates the locations of these areas as platted by the Oakland County Planning Commission. The light grey areas on the map illustrate relatively flat areas of five percent or less gradient. Within Rose Township, three areas have been classified as being under the five percent figure. The first area is located along Chana Road from Milford Road-Munger Road on the west to Rose Center Road-Pepper Road on the east. The next area is located south and west of Fish Lake between Hickory Ridge Road and Fish Lake Road extending south into Highland Township. The third location is north of Demode Road from Rose Center-Taylor Lake Road west to Tipsico Lake Road. Provided these areas are not swampy, development should be relatively easy as the topography of the land would not be a deterrent to use. The remainder of the Township as illustrated in white on the graphic is classified as having moderate slopes of six to eleven percent. Slopes such as these require moderate land balancing, however would not preclude development on a large lot basis. 17 �. • ••vtt• • ' •• , ·4•·'g=-_=4,......,:~~~=4~~~~~=====f.rr=4 &4•# f , • I ~ E .•. ' ,. il \ I· -I C. {t ft : l· t.f. .. ·: lrt..--==~··..===·~~~ . # ~ l~,_, · ~ r ~-,~-ij!L--==--. =';; I I ,1 LAKE AND SWAMP AREAS RosE TOWNSHIP, OAKLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN Lake and Swamp Locations Stream Locations ~ SOURCE: Oakland Ctv. Plan. Commission ~ i .. �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I In the development of the excessive slope areas, the Township should carefully evaluate proposals for use as many natural amenities could be disrupted if soil removal and slope reduction were permitted to occur. Density should be relatively low in the "twelve percent and over" areas so as to take advantage of the natural features and retain some for the future. Another physical feature that must be taken into consideration is the existing streams, lakes, and swamps. These areas have little development potential in and by themselves due to their water characteristics. However, their attraction as a physical resource should be taken into consideration in planning work. As depicted on the graphic entitled, "Lake and Swamp Area," the shaded areas located lakes, swamps and streams. Of note are Tipsico Lake, Fish Lake, Buckhorn Lake, Taylor Lake, Rattalee Lake, West Wind and Kelly Lakes, Big School Lot and Little School Lot Lakes, the Mill Pond and Lake Braemer. There are numerous swamp areas located mainly adjacent to the streams and lakes. As was pointed out in the Land Use Report, much of the residential development around Township lakes has been of the seasonal cottage type. Portions of the Tipsico Lake, Buckhorn Lake, Taylor Lake, and Lake Braemer areas or now being developed into full rather than seasonal residential subdivisions. The character of these areas is shifting from a summer recreation emphasis to a complete commitment to living in the Township. GLACIAL GEOLOGY All of the above-described characteristics have resulted because of glacial action that took place in the Township in the distant past. For intermittent periods over several thousand years, great bodies of ice gouged and scoured the rock, moved debris from place to place and spread out their loads in broad sheets or heaped it into piles of diverse sizes and shapes. With regard to the location of materials which were deposited by the glaciers, and to the shape in which it was deposited, the northern one-third of the Township is composed of moraine. Moraine is unsorted material which was left at the very front, or terminus, of the glacier often in mounds. Moraine areas of the Township include areas to the east of Milford Road and north of Davisburg Road and west of Fish Lake Road and north of Sackner Road (extended easterly). The moraine area is bisected by the creek bed which is followed by the railroad into Holly. There are two other locations where moraines are found. The first is located around and including Tipsico Lake south of Demode Road and west of Hickory I I 18 �' NOYI. 0 ... TILL .TILL !. :---;. ., . "C ~ ; ~- .. GLACIAL MATERIALS &DRAINAGE BASINS RosE TOWNSHIP, OAKLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN Glacial Materials: Moraine Till OUtwash Drainage Basins: Shiawassee · HUron SOURCE: Oakland Cty. Plan. Commission �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I '- Ridge Road, and the second area is a narrow band extending northeasterly from Rose Center and Pepper Roads toward Ranch Road and extending into Springfield Township on the east. The second type of glacial deposit found within the Township is till. During ice age advances, material such as boulders, rocks, trees, etc. was picked up in one place and deposited by the ice in another. This material includes various particle sizes ranging from fine gravel and sand to large boulders. The material is generally unsorted as to size. There are substantial areas of till in the Township. The southern two-thirds and extending in a broad band into Holly comprise the major till areas. Some of the till is inter-mixed with outwash and moraine materials on a very limited and scattered basis. Another large deposit of till is found on the eastern border in the Davisburg-Parker Road area. These areas are generally characterized by the broad rolling hills and gentle slopes with some mounding of earth (till deposits) on a scattered basis. The third type of glacial deposit noted in the Township is classified as outwash. This term applies to material derived from meltwater from ice which carries material beyond the moraine (noted above), sorting and depositing the material as it flowed. The moraine locations in the Township form land areas of the higher elevations. Drainage channels from the top of the moraines were formed by this melting action. In cases where a large amount of outwash material is deposited in one spot, the mound formed by the deposit is called kame. Where large quantities of water drained from the moraine, natural drainage channels were formed. Once the melting ice receded and run-off was confined to rainfall, water began to pond in the depressed drainage channels and form lakes in the area. Certain amounts of ground water have also contributed to the maintenance of water level in the lakes. Big School Lot and Little School Lot Lakes, and Lake Braemer are examples of this action. (Braemer has been controlled and enlarged, however, the basic glacial action created the initial water area). Overall, glacial action of advancing and receding ice significantly contributed to today's topographic conditions. Drainageways and the watersheds can be traced to their geologic beginnings due to the conditions described above. It is important to be aware of the physical characteristics of the land prior to formulating recommendations relative to its future use. 19 . , . . �I I I I I I I I I. ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM COMMUNITY FACILITIES REPORT I I II II II II 'II II. .., SECTION 4 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Commission Prepared by: Community Planning & Management, P.C. �I I I I I I I I I. I I -, : INTRODUCTION An important ingredient of the updated Master Plan is an evaluation of community facilities throughout the Township. These facilities include schools, parks, and public buildings, such as governmental structures and fire protection facilities. In this portion of the updated Plan, the existing inventory of all such facilities will be enumerated and analyzed . Viewed in the light of reasonable standards, proposals will be drafted to guide the provision of these uses. After the evaluation process, proposals for new community facilities will be discussed. The Township commissioned the preparation of a Recreation Master Plan during 1978 which was prepared in conformance to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources guidelines. The Recreation Master Plan was approved by the Township and submitted to the MDNR and subsequently approved. Following that approval, the Township submitted an application for development of the first Township Park at Rose Center and Milford Road. The park development is an ongoing project with the use of volunteer efforts, Township funding, Community Development Block Grant funding, and grants from the MDNR . For purposes of the recreation element, the adopted Recreation Master Plan is hereby included as reference material for this update of the overall Township Master Plan. As was pointed out in the 1972 Master Plan, it is essential to have adequate park space for future generations. Land should be acquired while population levels are relatively low, yet since 1972, the population has doubled to more than 4,000 persons. The 1972 plan listed the fact that no elementary schools are planned within the Township limits in the forseeable future. This assumption has been reconfirmed in written responses from the Fenton Area Schools and the Holly Schools. Therefore, it would not be possible to develop joint use park spaces with the potential location of elementary schools. Realizing the increasing costs of energy, the economic feasibility of continued bussing of school age persons may be of question in future years as the population continues to grow. The Recreation Master Plan proposes retention of current recreation resources, be they public or private, as well as includes the Civic Center Park, and one park within each quarter of the Township. These playfield areas would be designated as Township Parks with acquisition and development following a planned basis as designated in the Recreation Master Plan. 20 �I -I I I I I I I I I I I I I -II II I TOWNSHIP FACILITIES -Township Offices- Rose Township is still relatively rural with a 1970 population of 2,502 and a 1980 level at 4,375 persons. Serving the residents, the Township Board, Township Planning Commission, and Zoning Board of Appeals meet in the Township Hall located on Mason in Rose Jenter. The structure was built many years ago and has two large meeting rooms, one on the main floor and one in the basement. There is one small office area provided within the building. All Township records are kept in the homes of the Township Officials. The site is relatively small in nature without improved parking. Because of increased demand for services, the Township Officials maintain regular office hours in the Hall on Wednesdays and are available to residents by telephone or in their respective homes on a daily basis . . As the Township grows, it will become necessary to provide full time office space for Township Officials, regular office hours to transact Township business, and improved physical facilities in terms of structures and parking facilities. The present site ls inadequate for these activities and there ls little chance for expansion as surrounding lots are built upon. As was the case in the 1972 Master Plan, consideration should be given to the location of a new Township Building and attendant facilities on a parcel of land adequate to accommodate the projected population of the Township. The site of the Township Park at Rose Center and Milford Roads should be given first priority as this ls the location of the Civic Center Park. The generalized site plan developed in cooperation with the Oakland County Planning Division should be followed. Recent action of the residents in approving millage for fire protection and facilities has encouraged the Township Board to establish a savings program to provide funds for a fire department building. At the time office space ls needed, appropriate facilities should be provided on the site. The overall site plan includes site improvements for off-street parking while a new office use should include adequate office space for each Township Official, a conference room, a meeting room for the Board meetings, storage area and vault area for valuables and records. As noted, the Civic Center Park has been purchased by the Township following ' initial recommendations made in the 1972 Master Plan. That plan also suggested the expansion of the initial 10 acres to the next ten acres to the north. Since then, the ten acres to the north were purchased and a home built thereon. Purchase of the north ten acres is still possible with the potential use of the existing home as future Township Off~ce space. 21 �~ -I I -I I I I I I II II II II -Fire Protection- Fire protection is provided to Rose Township by several of the surrounding communities. Holly, Fenton, and the Townships of Highland, Holly, and Springfield make fire fighting equipment and personnel available. This mutual assistance program is curren~ ly serving the Township in an adequate fashion; however, this is due primarily to the rural nature of the community. Of all areas served, the central portion of the Township has the least amount of coverage because of its location in relation to the service areas of the area fire stations. Fire stations are major capital improvements and will be in use for many years. Therefore, their locations should be selected with care so as to result in the best fire protection possible, considering both life hazard and value of buildings and contents. Many points should be considered when choosing the location so that the company or companies to be housed in the new station will provide good coverage to the area to be protected and quick response to alarms of fire or other emergency calls. The type of area to be protected, that is, business, industrial, warshouse, institutional, residential, or a combination of them, is an important factor. Stations should be near extensive industrial or business districts and near districts where there is a high life hazard, even though this often appears to be out of line with a plan of uniform distribution. In the suburban and rural context of the Township, consideration must be given to adequately protecting existing developed areas as well as provide ample protection for future growth areas. To enable proper evaluation and realistic planning, the following standards for fire station location were adapted from data provided by the National Board of Fire Underwriters. - Low value areas such as residential and agricultural areas, the response area should not exceed 2.5 to 3 miles travel distance. - High value areas such as commercial, industrial, office, multiple-family, the response area. should be within the 3/4 to 2 mile travel distance. Topographical features of a community also affect station location and the total number required. A township divided into two or more portions by rivers, bluffs, mountains, and similar natural barriers, with few means for companies to respond from one portion to another, requires additional stations to provide proper protection. The same is true when there are man-made barriers, such as railroad tracks, limited access highways, and canals; the possibility of delay in response because of railroad crossings at grade, drawbridges, and heavy traffic must be considered. 22 �~ As the Township population expands, better fire protection is necessary to insure that residents' investments are protected. The 1972 Master Plan suggested two fire station locations, the west station at Hickory Ridge and Rose Center Roads, and the east station at Davisburg Road and Terrace Road. As noted pr€viously, the Township Board is currently in a savings program and intends to provide a fire station at the Civic Center Park site. Because of the logistics of this site (geographic center of the Township) the frin g e areas along the Township borders will receive minimum protecti o n. It would seem logical to continue the cooperative service agreements with the surrounding Townships to provide adequate fire protection to these areas that are two to four miles removed from the Rose Center site. I I I I I I -I . I I II II II It would also be reasonable to project at least one or perhaps two additional fire stations as the Township population continues to grow. Hickory Ridge Road south of Rose Center Road would still be an appropriate location for a future fire station. The northeastern part of the Township is far removed for Rose Center and Hickory Ridge Roads and, therefore, a site would seem appropriate in the Rattalee Lake Road east of Milford Road portion of the Township. The Board and Planning Commission should establish a priority program for actual site selection and purchase. This fire protection program should be ongoing and sites should be purchased in the near future while land costs are relatively stable . SCHOOL FACILITIES Rose Township is served by two school districts which divide the Township into two areas along a north-south line from Houser Road to the south Township line parallel to Fish Lake Road. On the east side of the dividing line is the Holly Area School District while the west side of the line is served by the Fenton Area Public Schools. The two school districts use a varied grade system in the following manner: District Grade System Elementary Holly Area Schools Fenton Area Public Schools - Junior H.S. Senior H.S. K-6 7-8 9-12 K-5 6-8 9-12 The two approaches are somewhat varied in that age groupings are mixed at different levels when comparing the districts. Apparently, the system accomplishes each district's objective of edµcation and proper utilization of physical facilities. II.~. ..... . .' 2a �I I I I I I I I -II I -11.., There are no elementary schools located within the boundaries of the Township. Children are transported to schools in Springfield Township (east and south), to the Village of Holly (north) to the City of Fenton (west). Written documentation from each school district indicates no plans to construct an elementary and/or secondary school facility within the Township boundaries between 1980 and the year 2000. The 1972 Master Plan calculated a percentage estimate of expected population for elementary and secondary students. Unfortunately, the 1980 Census is not to the level of detail that would enable a reasonable estimate of school demands. Those school facilities currently serving the Township include the following: Organization Capacity Site Size (Holly Area Schools) Holly Elementary Davisburg Elementary K-6 K-6 600 700 13.0 acres 19.0 acres (Fenton Area Public Schools) Eastern Elementary North Road Elementary State Road Elementary K-5 K-5 K-5 640 640 640 15.0 acres 10.0 acres 13.0 acres School Facility SOURCE: Appropriate School District Data, Community Planning & Management, P.C., September, 1980. As noted, each school service area extends beyond the Township. With regard to standards for delineation of service areas for elementary schools, each elementary school should serve approximately 800 students. Rather than the neighborhood walk-in school, the transportation of students is utilized because of the large geographical areas served by each school district. Each school district has been carefully monitoring recent population trends in the northwest Oakland County area. With significant decreases in the number of persons per household, the anticipated number of children will be significantly less than originally anticipated by the 1972 Master Plan document. For informational purposes, included herein are suggested standards fqr school site sizes, enrollment by grades as originally listed in the previous Master Plan. 24 �I I I I I I I I I I I -1.. ·" RECOMMENDED SCHOOL STANDARDS Item (1) Grades Served (2) Site Requirements Minimum Average Maximum (3) Enrollment Minimum Average Maximum (4) Students per Classroom (5) Service Area Population (6) Students per Family* SOURCE: *NOTE: Elementary Junior High School K thru 6 7 thru 9 7-8 acres 12-14 acres 16-18 acres 18-20 acres 24-26 acres 30-32 acres 250 800 1,200 800 1,200 1,600 25 25 1,250 1.,950 .64 .23 Rose Township Master Plan, 1972. This factor will be reduced when detailed 1980 Census data becomes available. From each school district, indications are that the existing schools will be adequate for the next twenty years. If the enrollment increases faster than is foreseen at this time, one of the school districts should consider locating a new facility in Rose Township. Assuming school development, the standards listed above should be utilized in choosing a site. Further, coordination with Township park facilities should be a prime requisite in the sel~ction of any site for an elementary school. as �I I I I -I I I I I I I I I I -l , p ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM POPULATION STUDY SECTION 5 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Com.mission Prepared by: Community Planning & Management, P.C. J •• • I ' '• �I I I I I I I I I. I I I I I I I. INTRODUCTION For any planning process to be useful and complete, a study of the growth and distribution of the Township population is a necessity. Historical and current population trends illustrate problem areas of development, comparisons with neighboring communities, and indications of probable future needs. Proper planning of future roads, community facilities, and public utilities is based on existing population figures and future projections. The relationship between population and planning is reciprocal in the sense that, while plans must be made in terms of the population expected, this expected population can be controlled to a certain degree by the planning goals outlined. Numerous forces are at work to determine the total population at any given time. Working in combination, or at odds, these forces can affect the growth situation in both positive and negative ways. On a larger scale, two forces are triggering population changes 1) falling birthrates, and 2) people migrating to different parts of the country. Population study has become a fluid compilation of well-defined uncertainties regarding the future shaped by up-to-the-minute demographic information regarding the present. This report will investigate Rose Township's present population composition and characteristics, consider the current trends impacting on the United States as a whole and the Midwest Region in particular, and then use these factors into projections of the Township's future population. 2• �I I I I I I I I I. I I I I I I -, ... PAST AND PRESENT POPULATION TRENDS Table 1 indicates the actual population figures and rate of growth for Rose Township from 1930 through 1970. The development pattern from 1970 to June of 1978 is based on the number of dwelling units added per year. As shown, Rose Township has experienced a continual increase in population at a generally accelerated growth rate. An exception to this increase in rate was the decade 1950-1960, which witnessed a slight deceleration. Since 1970, residential construction has maintained the brisk pace set in the 1960s. More can be learned from the Township's growth rate by comparing it to the rates of larger geographical entities. Since 1930, Rose Township has increased in population at a faster pace than the Detroit SMSA (the combination of Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb Counties), the State of Michigan, and the U.S.A. as a whole. The difference clearly illustrates the Township's position as a relatively undeveloped community far from the point of exhausting its growth potential. Since 1960, Rose Township has surpassed the growth rates of Oakland and Macomb Counties. While Rose Township's rate of growth had been high compared to the county, state, and national levels, it was · lower than most of its neighbors' from 1930 to 1970. Table 2 illustrates this from a slightly different perspective. Rose Township's share of the population of the state and of the Detroit Metropolitan Area steadily increased over the years. At the same time, its share of Oakland County's population was decreasing. This trend reversed itself with a share of .276% in 1970. Recent 1979 figures estimate that the percentage has increased again to .417%. Population in the northwest Oakland County area has been continually expanding, with each of the communities experiencing its own rate of growth. Migratory growth pressure from the Flint Metropolitan Area through Interstate 75 and Dixie Highway can be traced through the 48-year pattern of community growth in Table 3. In the 1940s, Independence and White Lake Townships first showed sharp increases in their growth. During the 1950s, Holly Township joined with those two communities to become one of the three fastest growing Townships in the area. In the 1960s, Groveland, Highland, and Springfield Townships experienced the highest growth rates. Tracing population trends enables a community to create some cohesive picture of past demographic movements and also to extend these population movements into the future. As shown, Rose Township can best appreciate its own population changes by comparing them with two other levels of development: 1) the growth pattern of the United States as a whole, and 2) the growth rate of Rose Township's immediate area, including County and individual neighbor developments. 27 �TABLE 1 ROOE TOWNSHIP LOCAL, STATE, ANO NATIONAL POPULATION GROOT!l 1930-1978 Change 1930-1940 % 1930 ROSE TOWNSHIP oakland County Macomb county 1940 Change 1940-1950 1950 Change 1950-1960 % % 1960 1970 June 1978 Change Dwelling Dwelling 1960-1970 units Units % 1970 Change 1970 ~ 1978 % 661 797 20.5 1,105 38.6 1,482 34.l 2,502 68.8 668 1,102 65.0 211,251 254,068 20.3 396,001 55.9 690,259 74.3 907,871 31. 5 264 , 566 333 , 012 25.9 77,146 107,638 39. 5 184,961 71.8 405,804 119.4 625,309 54 . 1 171,578 213,241 24.3 Wayne County 1,888,946 2,015,623 6.7 2,435,235 20.8 2,666,297 9.5 2,669,604 0.1 830,441 840 ,242 1. 2 Detroit SMSA . 2,177,343 2,377,329 9.2 3,016,197 26.9 3,762,360 24.7 4,202,784 11. 7 1,266 ,58 5 1,386,495 9.5 4,842,325 5,256,106 8.5 6,371,766 21.2 7,823,194 22.7 8,875,083 13.4 123,202,624 132,164,569 7. 3 151,325,798 14.5 179,323,175 18,5 203 , 211,926 13,3 State of Michigan . N U. S.A. Source: U.S. Census of Population, 1930-1970, and 11 Residential Construction in Southeast Michigan" 1970-June, 1978, Southeas t Michigan Council of Governments . ... ... .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ... .. .. la Ill. Ill. . . �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I -I . The decrease in the nations' growth rate during the 1960s, as shown in Table 1, was one of the first indications given to the Census Bureau regarding a significant slowdown in population growth in the United States . A study of population trends on a larger level was issued in April, 1979 by a population research firm. In part, this study reports: ~ During the last two decades, major shifts have appeared in patterns of American fertility and migration. By changing the size, structure, and distribution of the U.S. population, these shifts are altering - often drastically - the fortunes of people, places, and the country as a whole. Most importantly, U.S. population growth has slowed substantially since the middle of the 1960s, with a transition to zero population growth seemingly under way. The American population increased by an average of 2.8 million people a year between 1955 to 1965; since then, this average annual increase has diminished to less than 1.9 million. A change in American fertility has played the key role in this slowing of population growth. The fertility rate declined sharply during the 1960s and now stands barely above its historic low.* The population trend for the Midwest Region of the U.S. has been even more extreme than that for the country as a whole. Population growth in the Midwest has decreased sharply in the last thirty years and is well below the national growth rate. This drop has been the result of falling birthrates and the migration of people to other parts of the country. Projecting these trends would result in the Midwest reaching zero population growth by the middle of the next century, ahead of the rest of the nation. Population projections for Rose Township must balance two simultaneous but different forces that are impacting on the community. First, the Township must take into consideration the implications of the Census data. The expected Baby Boom ''echo" - the females born during the first Baby Boom of 1954-1960 bearing their own children - has failed to materialize. Of course, population shifts are volatile, but any gain that actually results will most likely be modest. The downward course of the national birthrate has not been substantially interrupted. As a result, Rose Township along with other communities must lower its persons per household ratio for population projections as there are less children per household being born. *"Beyond the Baby Boom - The Depopulation of America", Peter Morrison - The Rand Corporation, April, 1979. 29 . -.·- - ' • .... �TABLE 2 ROSE TOWNSHIP MI a-II GAN, DETROIT METROPOLITAN AREA, OAKLAND COUNTY (NUMBER OF PERSONS AND TOWNSHIP SHARE) ,. State of Michigan Twp. % Share Detroit Metro Area Twp. % Share Oakland Count}'.: 1930 4,842,325 .014 2,177,343 .030 211,251 .313 661 1940 5,256,106 .015 2,377,329 .033 254,068 .314 797 1950 6,371,766 .017 3,106,197 .035 396,001 .279 1,105 1960 7,823,194 .019 3,762,360 .039 690,603 .215 1,482 1970 8,875,083 .028 4,199,931 .059 907,871 .276 2,502 Twp. % Rose Share TownshiE r Source: . ··o U.S. Census of Population, 1930-1970 and Community Planning &Management, P.C. ' f �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I ' 'II The second impact will neutralize this decreasing effect to a certain extent. Until recently, Rose Township has been isolated from the migratory corridors of growth stretching out of the Flint and Detroit Metropolitan Areas. During the next twenty years, growth pressures from migration, all but the migration of smaller-sized households, will counteract mo~t of the national decreasing growth trend. As indicated in the Table "Rose Township and Neighboring Community Growth Rates", Rose Township was the third fastest growing community in this portion of Oakland County. Only Springfield and Groveland grew at a faster rate during the eight year period. Preliminary 1980 Census data indicates an everchanging development pattern in the same northwest Oakland County communities. The following Table illustrates the preliminary census enumerations for the same area communities: Preliminary 1980 Census Count Rose Brandon Groveland Highland Holly Independence Springfield Waterford White Lake Oakland County 4,375 8,069 4,119 16,787 3,555 20,248 8,110 65,287 21,366 996,329 1970 Census Count Percent Increase Over 1970 levels 2,502 3,831 2,570 8,372 3,041 16,327 4,833 59,123 14,311 907,871 74.8% 110.6% 60.2% 100.5% 16.9% 20.0% 67.8% 10.4% 49.3% 9.7% Source: U.S. Census of Population, 1980 Preliminary Data as released by Oakland County Planning Division, July 1980 and U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1970 Decennial Census. Rose Township ranks third highest in the percent of increase in population for the decade in the northwest portion of the County. For the projection of future population levels, a figure of 3.5 persons per household is to be used for single-family and twofamily units while 2.5 persons will be used for multiple-family and 2.3 persons for mobile home unit. These same figures were used in the recently completed Rose Township Recreation Plan, 1978. a1 �TABLE 3 ROSE TOWNSHIP NEIGHBORING COMMUNITY GRG/'.IH RATES 1930 ROSE TCMNSHIP 661 Brandon Township Groveland Township Highland Township Holly Township Independence Township Springfield Township White Lake Township Oakland County Source: ... -- .. , 794 ~ 797 999 , Change 1930-1940 20.5 25.8 ~ 1,105 1,447 I Change 1940-1950 38.6 1960 \ Change 1950-1960 1'ill.. 1,482 34.l 2,502 1970 , Change Dwelling units 1960-1970 68.8 668 June ,1978 Dwelling Units 1,102 , Change 1970 June, 1978 65.0 60.l 44.8 2,416 67.0 3,830 58.5 1,277 2,045 33. l 2,570 96.8 709 1,272 79.4 2,304 3,789 64.8 674 930 38.0 981 5.5 1,306 1,206 1,726 43 . l 2,944 73.5 4,855 65.0 8,372 72.4 918 1,036 12 .a 1,367 31.9 3,269 139.0 3,041 -6. 3 897 1,146 27.7 5,880 30.0 1,164 1,627 39.8 3,448 lU.O 10,121 193.5 16,327 61. 3 4,560 923 1,273 37.9 1,825 43.4 2,664 46.0 4,833 81.4 1,196 1,984 65.9 1,114 1,643 47.5 4,182 154.5 8,381 100.4 14,311 70. 7 4,025 5,640 40.1 211,251 254,068 20.3 396,001 55.9 690,603 74.4 907,871 31.5 264,566 333,012 .. 25.9 U.S. Census of Population, 1930-1970, and "Residential Construction in Southeast Midligan" 1970-June, 1978, Southeast Michigan Council of Governments • .. .. .. .. .. ... la ~ ~ 1111. �I -II TABLE 4 POPULATION PER HOUSEHOLD IN 1970 AND 1980 UNIT II State of Michigan Oakland County Rose Township Holly Township Highland Township White Lake Township Springfield Township •I I I -- • • • • • • • • • ••• 1970 PERSONS/ HOUSEHOLD Source: 3.30 3.40 3.73 3.38 3.70 3.53 3.61 ~ 1980 PERSONS/ HOUSEHOLD N/A 2.65 2.90 2.73 2.96 2.69 2.77 U.S. Bureau of the Census, U.S. Census of Population and Housing for appropriate years, (U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C.) and preliminary 1980 Census Data as interpolated by Community Planning & Management, P.C., July 1980. The household population figures listed above are indicative of an anticipated decrease in the actual number of persons living in each household in years to come. The recently released 1980 figures are certainly reflective of this trend. The 1980 persons per household calculation was not adjusted for vacancy as the rate for each community was not available. The 1970 rate of vacancy for Rose Township was 8.7% of all dwelling units. Assuming the same rate for 1980, the persons per household figure will increase to 3. 21. 33 .. �~ ~ • • • • • • • •I I I • •II II •·- POPULATION COMPOSITION Determining the total number of people in Rose TDwnship is only a first step in anticipatory planning. The composition of the population will tell the community exactly who it is planning for. A younger population demands schools and active recreation facilities, while an older population will place different demands upon community priorities. Less school space and a more passive recreational inventory might result. As mentioned in the above, several factors have and will continue to influence the population characteristics and growth in northwest Oakland County and Rose Township . 1) The higher birthrates immediately after the Second World War have contributed to a disproportionate number of persons in the late twenties and early thirties categories . 2) Lower birthrates were the result of a strained socioeconomic situation due to the Depression and early war years (1940s). Lower numbers of persons are noted in the 35 to 45 age groupings . 3) A general lowering of the birthrate between 1960 and the present has caused a decline in the numbers of pre - school and school age children in the area . Smaller planned family size has also been a contributing factor. 4) Growth in this general area of the county has been caused more by the immigration of young families seeking a less urban environment than by natural increases (births over deaths). The attached illustration entitled "Population Pyramid" is a graphic display of population composition. The ideal population pyramid should approach a regular pyramidal shape, being wide at the bottom as births occur, and narrowing at the top with deaths. The U.S. situation in 1900 illustrates this perfectly. However, the social and economic factors mentioned above influence the shape of today's distribution. The final pyramid illustrates the 1970's low fertility rate (the number of children under 5 years of age per 1,000 women between the ages of 15 and 49). The large number of children born in the 1950s are now part of the 20-29 age category. The population pyramid in 1970 for Rose Township contains major concentrations in the 14 - and-under age divisions and in the 25 - 54 age groups. Table 5 illustrates this distribution in terms of percentages. In Rose, the highest percentages occur specifically in the 25-44 and 5-14 age groups . The Township has higher percentage distributions than the County and State in the 19 - and - under and 25-34 categories . This level of detail is not currently available for the 1980 Census and therefore the 1970 data has been listed. 34 1,,': �•: TABLE 5 AGE GROUPS AS A PERCENT OF 'roTAL POPUIATION ROSE TCMNSHIP, OAKLAND COUN'IY, STATE OF MICHIGAN MAIE Rose 0 - 4 6.1 Oakland County state Rose FEMALE Oakland County State Rose TOTAL Oakland County State 4.5 4.6 4.7 4.4 4.5 10.8 8.9 9.1 t 9 6.4 5.4 5.3 5.2 5.1 5.1 11.6 10.5 10.4 10 - 14 6.6 6.0 5.6 5.9 5.8 5.4 12.5 11.8 11.0 15 - 19 4.3 4.9 4.9 5.7 4.8 4.9 10.0 9.7 9.8 20 - 24 2.5 3.2 3.7 2.6 3.8 4.2 5.1 7.0 7.9 25 - 34 7.0 6.2 6.0 7.3 6.4 6.2 14. 3 12 .6 12. 2 IO 35 - 44 6.0 6.1 5.5 5.7 6.4 5.8 11.7 12. 5 11.3 " 45 - 54 4.9 6.0 5.5 5.0 6.3 5.8 9.9 12.3 11.3 55 - 59 2.3 2.3 2.3 1.6 2.3 2.4 3.9 4.6 4.7 60 - 64 1.6 1.7 1.8 1.4 1.8 2.0 3.0 3.5 3.8 65 - 74 2.5 1.9 2.4 2.7 2.4 2.9 5.2 4.3 5.3 .9 .9 1.3 1.1 1.4 1.9 2.0 2.3 3.2 51.1 49.l 48.9 48.9 50.9 51.1 100.0 100.0 100.0 5 - 75 + TOTALS Source: U.S. Census of Population and Housing 1970, and Community Planning & Management, P.C. �Table 6 translates these age divisions into six general life phases . The logical combination of comparatively large elementary school and family-forming groups indicates that Rose Township is a young, growing community. Neighboring Township's are experiencing the same pattern of development. While the sizes of these two age groups are large compared to the other life phase divisions, they are small in terms of real numbers. These lower overall numbers will contribute to a decreased number of school age children during the next two decades. Early 1980 Census returns indicate a marked decrease in the number of persons in each household. Single person households and families choosing to have a limited number of children have contributed to the lower number of persons in each home . • • • • • • • -•~··· 39 ·.. · ,. . ., . . .. �,f::,,, TABLE 6 ROSE TOWNSHIP MAJOR POPULATION GROUP COMPARISON Oakland County Rose Holly State Twp. Twp. Pre-School (0-4) 9.1 8.9 10. 8 9.7 12.2 10.2 11.2 9.7 9.8 Elementary School (5-14) 21.4 22.3 24.1 22.3 25.3 25.5 24.4 24.4 27.5 Secondary School (15-19) 9.8 9.7 10.0 8.4 8.4 8.9 9.2 9.3 9.4 Family Forming (20-44) 31.4 32.1 31.1 31. 4 35.4 32.8 33.1 33.2 34.4 Mature Families (45-64) 19.8 20.3 16.8 20.2 14.7 16.4 15.8 18.5 15.1 8.5 6.7 7.2 7.6 4.0 6.2 6.3 4.9 3.8 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 Retirement (65 +) TOTALS Source: Groveland Twp. U.S. Census of Population and Housing, 1970, and Community Planning & Management, P.C. Springfield 'lwp. Highland Twp. White Lake Twp. Independenc« Twp. ...., �I I I I I I I I I ' I I I I ~ _ _ ,., POPULATION PROJECTIONS With 434 net dwelling units added between 1970 and June of 1978, and assuming 3.21 persons per dwelling unit, approximately 1,389 persons were added to the Township's population since the 1970 Census. This figure includes eight percent vacancy rate for all dwelling units in the Township. One hundred thirty-nine (139) additional building permits have been issued since June, 1978, adding an estimated 446 persons through April, 1979. As a result of these calculations, the total estimated population for Rose Township is 3,860 persons as of May, 1979, The preliminary 1980 Census count taken in April of 1980 enumerated 4,375 persons in the Township. The difference between the earlier estimates and the Census count can be attributed to the lower number of persons per household. There are many methods available for projecting the future population of Rose Township. Because the actual population will be the result of both predictable and unpredictable factors, it is best to incorporate a number of different projections into an estimated population range. This population projection will then act as a guideline for general planning decisions and during periodic evaluations of community facilities. In addition to projections prepared by two separate government agencies, four mathematical methods will be used to project the Township's future population. These models are the Growth Rate Method, the Arithmetic Projection Method, the Constant Proportion Method, and the Increasing Proportion Method. The growth rate method simply assumes that the 1970 to 1980 growth rate will be the same as between 1960 and 1970, that the 1970 to 1990 growth rate will be the same as between 1950 and 1970, and that the 1970 to 2000 growth rate will compare with the 1940 to 1970 rate. This results in the following: Growth Rate Method 1980 population 1960-1970 % change Projected 1980-1990 change Projected 1990 population 4,375 74.8% 3,273 7,648 1980 population 1960-1980 % change Projected 1980-2000 change Projected 2000 population 4,375 195.2% 8,540 12,915 1980 population 1950-1980 % change Projected 1980-2010 change Projected 2,010 population 4,375 295.9% 12,945 17,320 31 �I I I I I I I I The population rate increases experienced in the 1950's-1970's will be accelerated now that the Township is in the immediate path of growth pressures from nearby metropolitan areas. Therefore, the growth rate method of projection yields estimates which the Township is likely to exceed. The arithmetic projection method is basically similar to the growth rate method, but utilizes actual numbers rather than percentages and results in the following: Arithmetic Projection Method 1980 population 1970-1980 change Projected 1990 population 4,375 +1,873 6,248 1980 population 1960-1980 change Projected 2000 population 4,375 +2,893 7,268 1980 population 1950 - 1980 change Projected 2010 population 4,375 +3,270 7,645 The constant proportion method assumes that the Township will remain the same percentage of the County's 1990, 2000 or 2010 population as at present. Because of the increased rate of growth in Rose Township since 1970, an up-to-date percentage rate will be used, calculated from the Oakland County Planning Division's estimated 1979 populations for Rose Township and the County. This percentage will be applied against the Oakland County population projections calculated in SEMCOG's 1978 Small Areas Forecast. Constant Proportion Method SEMCOG 1980 County population Estimated Twp. % share of County in 1979 1980 projection 1,052,777 .417% 4,390 SEMCOG 1990 County population Estimated Twp. % share of County in 1979 1990 Projection 1,007,122 .417% 4,200 SEMCOG 2000 County population Estimated Twp. % share of County in 1979 2000 projection 1,074,531 .417% 4,481 None of the above mathematical projections are based upon the likelihood that Rose Townships share of the County's growth will increase past its share of previous and present regional growth. The Oakland County Planning Division's projections of 89 ... . -· . -t , · . �I I I I I I I I population for the County and Rose Township indicate that the Township will continue to increase its share of the County growth from .417% in 1979 to .436% in 1980, .688% in 1990, and up to 1.032% by the year 2000. The increasing projection method applied these percentages to the County population projections by SEMCOG, yield the following results: Increasing Projection Method SEMCOG 1980 County population Estimated Twp. % share of County in 1980 1980 projection for Rose Township 1,052,777 .436% 4,590 SEMCOG 1990 County population Estimated Twp. % share of County in 1990 1990 projection for Rose Township 1,007,122 .688% 6,929 SEMCOG 2000 County population Estimated Twp. % share of County in 2000 2000 projection for Rose Township 1,074,531 1. 032% 11,089 The Township Recreation Plan assumed a consistent rate of growth between 1977 and 1980 and estimated the 1980 figure at 4,560 persons. This assumption was based upon the conservative development of fifty (50) single family home sites per year or an addition of 175 persons each year. The April 1979 estimate of population listed above was 4,507 persons. It would appear the estimate for 1980 is fairly consistent and close to expected levels. Preliminary 1980 Census data indicates 4,375 persons. Therefore, the Recreation Plan 1980 estimate and the April 1979 population estimate were found to be slightly higher than the reported Census figure. Extending this anticipated building permit activity to 1990 and 2000, this could mean a population level of 6,200 persons living in the Township during the decade. Assuming the same moderate rate of growth from 1990 to 2000, an additional 2,000 persons would be living in Rose. A review of the projection data indicates the following population expectations for the next twenty years: 1980 1990 2000 2010 - 4,375 6,200 8,000 10,000 Again, it should be emphasized that population projection is not an exact science and many factors contribute to the rate of increase and/or decrease. Projections in the 1973 Township Master Plan were indeed conservative in that the 1980 level was projected at 3,500 persons while the 1990 year listed 5,500 persons. Obviously, development intensity has increased dramatically and new households are entering Rose Township at a faster rate than was anticipated in past planning work. The implications of such dramatic population increase for the _ Township include demands for public services in police, fire, recreation and health services, and staffing these services to meet the anticipated levels of activity. . :. ·. . . . .. ... . �I I I I I I I I. I I I I I ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM ECONOMIC BASE STUDY - SECTION 6 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Commission ~ ~ I- Prepared by: Community Planning & Management, P.C. .... �I I I I I I I I I. I I I I I I ~ -I INTRODUCTION Commercial and industrial land use needs will vary substantially between any two communities, and it is the purpo~e of this report to analyze Rose Township's commercial land use characteristics and to recommend a long-range policy guide for meeting those needs. The approach employed herein is as follows: Market Analysis - the Township's 1980, 1990, and 2000 ultimate spending potential is established to determine floor area and acreage needs by retail type in order to relate potential to existing land use acreage. Existing Commercial Land Use - in view of the ultimate potential acreage needs for commercial activity in the Township, the existing commercial pattern is discussed. Industrial Analysis - the employment characteristics and potential of Rose Township as related to today's industrial land use needs, and forecasted into the future. Existing Industrial Land Use - in view of the potential acreage needs for industrial activity in the Township, the existing industrial pattern is discussed. COMMERCIAL LAND MARKET ANALYSIS The market analysis process is capable of arriving at statistically reliable commercial base planning alternatives from an examination of trade area economic characteristics. The analysis is not capable of forecasting actual retail sales. It can only predict future market performance on an "all things being equal" basis. The Township's ability to attain its economic potential becomes a question of whether ancillary programs involving access, parking, circulation and beautification will be undertaken by the community in conjunction with future demand proposals, and whether Township residents are willing to forfeit some of their rural atmosphere for increased commercial activity. The City of Fenton and the Village of Holly are in close proximity to the Township, each having an established central business district. Each shopping district offers a variety of convenience and comparison stores located in a compact downtown setting. Commercial facilities include drugs, hardware, restaurants, department stores, public and semi-public uses, banks, antique s ales, and similar items. Both downtown areas have grown and prospered because of their location in relation to rail facilities and their service to the predominantly agricultural area surrounding them. Recent redevelopment activities in downtown Fenton have brought new uses and improved parking facilities to the area. Fringe development adjacent to each community has 41 ' , �I I I I I I I I I I recently been occurring; however, each new commercial area has developed away from Rose Township. Areas to the east and south of Ro se must also be taken into consideration. The M-59 Corridor which travels through Highland Township and White Lake Township has scattered commercial~development adjacent to the right-of-way. In the area of Milford Road and M-59 (Highland Road) is the settlement of Highland which has several convenience and comparison shopping facilities located therein. A short distance to the south is located the Village of Milford where moderate commercial facilities are present. To the east of Rose Township is found the settlement of Davisburg where a small amount of convenience, medical, banking, and comparison shopping is available. All of the surrounding commercial areas should be taken into consideration when attempting to estimate the potential market for commercial land use. The purpose of market analysis is to evaluate commercial development with regard to the needs of the population it serves. Generally, the most useful approach is to compare the existing acreage of convenience, comparison and general commercial development within a defined trade area to the estimated commercial acreage needs of the existing population of that area, and to the needs of projected population levels based upon immediate development of platted subdivision lots and various acreage developments as well as capacity population as indicated by the Master Plan. The analysis can be completed for an entire municipality to measure its dependence on outside retail facilities or to estimate the amount of land needed to be set aside for commercial development, or for a particular site to predict the demand for a proposed business location. The first step in the market analysis is to define a trade area. This can be the entire community or that area from which a business would draw its customers. It is important to note that analysis defining an entire community as the trade area does not provide specific information on exact commercial locations as does the single site approach. On a community-wide basis, the results yield a measurement of total retail need, but does not reveal isolated inconsistencies in population/facility ratio. For this analysis, the trade area is defined to be all of the land area within the Township. The data base for this analysis is the following population projections for Rose Township as listed in the Population Report and county averages as listed below with the source as indicated. Year Population 1980 1990 2000 2010 4,375 6,200 8,000 10,000 42 Households 1,363 1,931 2,492 3,115 �I I I I I I I I I I A factor of 3.2 persons per household is applied throughout the thirty-year period . A basic assumption here is that available disposable income of each household could be spent within the Township if commercial land uses were provided. Small area (Township level) data on income and disposable retail dollars is not currently available; therefore, Oakland County averages must be applied. The median household effective buying income calculated for the County was $24,910 for each household in 1978. Each family spends a certain amount of their budget for various retail purchases during the year. The Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics lists information regarding the relative percentage distribution, and these figures are allocated by land use category and commercial use. Also applied are sales amounts per square foot of usable floor area by retail and store type to convert the calculations to area and acreage amounts. The sales per square foot data is derived from the 1979 issue of the Dollars & Cents of Shopping Centers as prepared by the Urban Land Institute. The need for commercial development is calculated as a function of the average family income and retail trade statistics, translated into acreage by sales data per square foot of store type and floor area to land area ratios typical in the community. The procedure takes that portion of the average family income available for retail purchases and multiplies it by the number of families in the Township to obtain a total expected retail expenditure of all families within the trade area. The total expenditure is divided into categories of retail trade according to documented percentages for actual retail sales from previous years. The translation of the figures from total sales into land area begins with the selection of appropriate amounts for sales per square foot of usable floor area by store type. This data is somewhat dependent upon the affluence of the trade area, but more so upon the geographical region in which the study is located. The dollar amount available for retail trade, divided by the sales per square foot, yields the usable floor area of that store type that can be supported by trade area. This is approximately 75% of the total floor area of a store. A factor is then applied to convert retail floor area into total required land area to allow for ancillary features as parking, landscaping, buffers and service areas. The ratio of floor area to total land area is generally 1:6 for convenience centers, 1:8 for comparison and 1:4 for general commercial. These ratios vary somewhat according to the density of development in the area. The total land area is then converted into acres. The following tables represent a calculation of market potential for Rose Township for the next thirty years. These tables are an ind cation of commercial needs using the underlying assumption that all families in the Township would spend their available dollars at a local shopping area rather than outside the boundaries of the Township. Further, those persons on the edge of the Township may shop in Rose or in the adjacent community if facilities and services were equal. The tables follow: 43 •1 I �I I I I I I I I 1980 POPULATION LEVEL OF 4~375 ROSE TOWNSHIP Retail Group % of Retail Sales CONVENIENCE: Food Drug Lbr, Blg, Hdw Eat/Drink Other Retail 21.1% 3. 6 % 2.0% 4.2% 4.0% SUBTOTALS 16 . 4 % 5 .1% 4.5% 4.2% 4.0% SUBTOTALS TOTALS 1.7 0.6 0.8 0.4 0.5 29,000 4.0 18,200 5,500 6,500 2,700 3,400 3.3 1 •0 1.2 0.5 o.6 36,400 6.7 6,400 21,200 14,200 o.6 2.0 1•3 6,236 41,900 3.8 20,182 107,200 14.5 352.00 154.51 66.38 317.29 234.09 181 .47 1 86 • 4 8 139.76 317 .29 234.09 3,310 1 , 0 29 90 8 848 807 6,902 SUBTOTALS Hdw 2. 1% 2 2. 1 % 6.7% Sq. Ft. Equivalent Supported by Commercial Study Area Acreage 12,100 4,700 6,100 2,700 3,400 4,258 727 404 848 807 7,043 COMPARISON: General Mdse Apparel Furniture Eat/Drink Other Retail GENERAL: Lbr, Blg, Auto Gasoline Retail Sales Sales from Study Area per Sq. Ft. ($000'S) 424 4,460 1, 352 66.38 210.00 95.00 44 �I I I I I I I I I I I I I 1990 POPULATION LEVEL OF 6 ;·200 ROSE TOWNSHIP % of Retail Group Retail Sales CONVENIENCE: Food Drug Lbr, Blg, Hdw Eat/Drink Other Retail 21.1% 3.6% 2.0% 4.2% 4.0% I SUBTOTALS -~ TOTALS 'I 16. 4 % 5. 1% 4.5% 4.2% 4.0% 2.4 0.9 1•2 0.5 0.7 41,100 5.7 25,800 7,800 9,200 3,800 4,900 4.7 1. 4 1 •7 0.7 0.9 51,500 9.5 9,000 30,100 20,200 0.8 2.8 1.9 8,835 59,300 5.4 28,592 151,900 20.6 181.47 1 86 • 4 8 139.76 317 .29 234.09 4,689 1 , 4 58 1 , 2 87 1 , 201 1 , 14 4 9,778 SUBTOTALS GENERAL: Lbr, Blg, Hdw Auto Gasoline 17,100 6,700 8,600 3,800 4,900 352.00 154.51 66.38 317.29 234.09 6,033 1 , 0 29 57 2 1 , 201 1 , 14 4 9,979 SUBTOTALS COMPARISON: General Mdse Apparel Furniture Eat/Drink Other Retail Equivalent Sq. Ft. Retail Supported by Commercial Sales Sales from Acreage Study Area Study Area per Sq. Ft. ($000'S) 2.1% 22.1% 6.7% 600 6,319 1 , 9 16 66.38 210.00 95.00 4 !5 --~.. .. _.:t �I I I I I I I I I. I I I I 2000 POPULATION LEVEL OF 8~000 ROSE TOWNSHIP % of Retail Group Retail Sales CONVENIENCE: Food Drug Lbr, Blg, Hdw Eat/Drink Other Retail 21 • 1 % 3. 6 % 2.0% 4.2% 4.0% 1 6. 4 % 5. 1 % 4.5% 4.2% 4.0% 181 .47 1 86 . 4 8 139.76 317.29 234.09 6,051 1 , 8 82 1 , 660 1 , 5 50 1 , 47 6 12,619 SUBTOTALS GENERAL: Lbr, Blg, Hdw Auto Gaso.line 352.00 154.51 66.38 317.29 234.09 7,786 1 , 3 28 7 38 1 , 5 50 1 , 47 6 12,878 SUBTOTALS COMPARISON: General Mdse Apparel Furniture Eat/Drink Other Retail Sq. Ft. Equivalent Retail Supported by Commercial Sales from Sales Study Area Acreage Study Area per Sq. Ft. ($000'S) 2. 1% 22.1% 6.7% 66.38 210.00 95.00 775 8,155 2,472 22,100 8,600 11,100 4,900 6,300 3.0 1 •2 1.5 53,000 7.3 33,300 10,100 11,900 4,900 6,300 6•1 1.9 2.2 0.9 1.2 66,500 12.2 11,700 38,800 26,000 1. 1 3.6 2.4 0.1 0.9 I SUBTOTALS 11,402 76,500 1.0 36,899 196,100 26.5 -~ TOTALS ~ - 48 f l �I I I I I I I I I I I ' 2010 POPULATION LEVEL OF 10~000 ROSE TOWNSHIP % of Retail Group Retail Sales CONVENIENCE: Food Drug Lbr, Blg, Hdw Eat/Drink Other Retail 21.1% 3. 6 % 2.0% 4.2% 4.0% 16.4% 5. 1% 4.5% 4.2% 4.0% 181 .47 1 86 • 4 8 139.76 317.29 234.09 7,564 2,352 2,076 1 , 937 1 , 8 45 15,774 SUBTOTALS GENERAL: Lbr, Blg, Hdw Auto Gasoline 352.00 154.51 66.38 317.29 234.09 9,732 1 , 660 922 1 , 937 1 , 8 45 1 6 , 0 97 SUBTOTALS COMPARISON: General Mdse Apparel Furniture Eat/Drink Other Retail Sq. Ft. Equivalent Retail Supported by Commercial Sales from Sales Study Area Acreage Study Area per Sq. Ft. ($000'S) 2. 1% 22.1% 6.7% 66.38 210.00 95.00 96 9 10,193 3,090 27,600 10,700 13,900 6, 1 00 7,900 3.8 1 •5 1.9 0.8 1•1 66,300 9. 1 41,700 12,600 14,900 6,100 7,900 7.7 2.3 2.7 1• 1 1 •4 83,100 15 . 3 14,600 48,500 32,500 1.3 4.5 3.0 SUBTOTALS 14,252 95,700 8.8 TOTALS 46,123 245,100 33.2 47 �I I I I I I I I I I I I Summary of Commercial Land Needs Rose Township - 1980 to 2010 Business Grouping 1980 1990 2000 ~- 4.0 6.7 5.7 9.5 15.3 8.8 33.2 Convenience Comparison General ~ ~ 7.3 12.2 7.0 Totals 14.5 20.6 26.5 SOURCE: 2010 9.l Previous Tables. In comparison to statistics generated in the 1972 Master Plan, each Business Grouping has a higher estimated acreage amount in 1980. Several factors are inherent in the newer estimate. Allowances for inflation, increases in spendable income, and higher population levels for each decade of the estimate have been taken into account. Comparing current land usage with estimated market potential, there is an opportunity to determine the extent to which the potential market is being impacted. In the 1980 land use survey, only seven (7) acres were enumerated for commercial use. According to the market study, there is a potential for 14.5 acres now, with a potential expansion to 20.6 acres by 1990 and 26.5 acres by the year 2000. Obviously, this means current market influences such as Fenton, Holly, Davisburg, Milford, as well as the larger regional shopping centers in Novi, Flint, Southfield, and Sterling Heights have some draw and appeal to Township residents. The above projections of retail potential and required commercial acreages are based upon the projected population and the amount of retail activities that can be expected to be generated from this population. Existing commercial uses do not offer the complete range of commercial activities and therefore the population must seek goods and services where they are available in nearby and distant communities. While allowing convenience commercial uses to occur at ramdom throughout the Township is more consistent with the rural atmosphere, a grouping of these uses would be more efficient and would provide the Township with more control over future development. Several well located, small convenience centers would help prevent undesirable and uneconomic strip development along Township roads. In pla~ning for future commercial locations, Rose Township must consider that the drawing power of its commercial activity will extend to some portion of the adjacent communities. The amount of retail potential which Rose Township will capture beyond its boundaries will most likely be very small. There are several 48 1j ·' . �I I I I I I I I I I I I I reasons which support this conclusion. Access to Rose Township is limited at the present time, whereas competing commercial areas are more easily accessible to residents in the surrounding communities. Commercial activity within the Township is limited at present and any future commercial establishments will have to directly compete with shopping centers and other facilities in and around Fenton and Holly. Future commercial activity in the Township must be able to capture the business of these residents who have become accustomed to traveling greater distances and patronizing a particular establishment or center . The travel time necessary to reach competing commercial centers is one factor in Rose Township's favor. Residents in the southern half of the Secondary Trading Area must travel distances up to 8 or 10 miles just to do their grocery, drug, and other convenience shopping in Milford or along M-59. A convenience center in Rose Township consisting of a chain grocery and drug store as the major tenants could expect to capture a good proportion of the disposable income available, if located in the central or southern portion, because of the decreased travel time shoppers would realize. The revised plan of the Township proposes five commercial locations reflecting current land use and future potential . Each site is depicted to indicate the probable generalized location for future retail and service uses in limited concentrations rather than scattered along the road system of the Township. Recognizing there is market potential for limited commercial facilities within the next twenty years, the actual demand may require expansion of present sites and/or the location of new uses. The potential of all five sites being developed in the time period of the plan is limited due to indications of lower population expectations in the northwest part of Oakland County. Therefore, it would seem the sites suggested offer alternatives for commercial and office use on a wider range rather than limited to one or two specific locations . Future commercial sites suggested for consideration include: 1) 2) 3) 4) 5) Davisburg Road at Lake Braemar - 10 acres Milford Road at Fenton Road - 3 acres Fenton Road at Hickory Ridge Road - 2 acres Rose Center Road at Hickory Ridge Road - 10 acres Milford Road at Rose Center Road (Ranch) - 3 acres INDUSTRIAL ANALYSIS The analysis of the industrial segment of the local economy includes a view of the employment characteristics of the existing population and a projection of the future population levels. Further, this analysis examines areas currently used for industrial purposes and whether there is any potential of growth for such uses. Data is also listed which indicates the future amount of industrial land within the community based upon population levels. 4g �I I I I I I I I I I I I EMPLOYMENT CHARACTERISTICS AND POTENTIAL The following Table indicates the occupational characteristic within Rose Township in 1970. As indicated, 22.5% of those persons employed were craftsmen & foremen, 20.1% were operatives, 13.8% were clerical workers, and the next largest component, professional & technical workers, represented 11. 4% of tho·se i=,ersons employed. The next Table indicates 1970 employment by industry in the Township, showing 33.2% of those employed engaged in Durable Goods Manufacturing, and 14.4% in Retail Trade. TABLE 1970 OCCUPATIONAL CHARACTERISTICS IN ROSE TOWNSHIP Number Occupation Group Professional & Technical Managers & Administrators Sales workers, except retail Retail Trade Clerical Craftsmen & Foremen Operatives, except transport Transport equipment operatives Laborers, except farm Farm workers Service workers Private household workers Total Number of Employed Persons Percent 95 40 9 16 115 188 168 14 65 60 59 5 11. 4 4.8 1.1 1.9 13.8 22.5 20 .. 1 1.7 7.9 7.2 7.0 834 100.0% .6 The total number of persons employed, 834, represents 33.3% of the total 1970 population of Rose Township. Although this percentage will vary in the future depending upon changing population characteristics, it would be reasonable to assume that this percentage of the future population will also require employment, with the following results giving the 1970 and 1980 data with a projection to 1990, 2000, and 2010. TABLE ANTICIPATED EMPLOYMENT IN ROSE TOWNSHIP* Year 1970 1980 1990 2000 2010 Population 2,502 4,375 6,200 8,000 10,000 Total Employment Anticipated 834 1,457 2,064 2,664 3,330 (33.3%) (33.3%) (33.3%) (33-3%) (33.3%) *Based upon anticipated future population. Note: Detailed 1980 Census data was not available as of the preparation of this report. 50 �I I I I I I I I I I I TABLE 1970 EMPLOYMENT BY INDUSTRY IN ROSE TOWNSHIP Occupation Group Number Construction* Durable Goods Manufacturing* Non-Durable Goods Manufacturing* Transportation* Communications, Utilities & Sanitary Services* Wholesale Trade Retail Trade Finance, Insurance & Real Estate Business & Repair Services Personal Services Health Services Educational Services Other P~ofessional & Related Services Public Administration Other Industries* Total Percent _ll 8.6 33.2 2.2 1. 2 4.7 4.7 14.4 3.6 4.8 2.6 3.7 3.7 1. 8 2.3 8.5 834 100.0 72 277 18 10 39 39 120 30 40 22 31 31 15 19 *Included in Percent of Employees Requiring Industrial Land The industry groupings listed in the above Table will most likely remain consistent during the planning period. Of the total employment in the Township, a certain number of industry groups will require allocations of land based upon the land-employee relationship. Within the categories, the following comprise 55.4% of the total employment in the Township. TABLE SUMMARY OF DISTRIBUTION OF OCCUPATIONS FOR ROSE TOWNSHIP Occupational Group Percent of Total Construction Durable Goods Manufacturing Non- Durable Goods Manufacturing Transportation Communications, Utilities & Sanitary Services Other Industries 8.6 33.2 2.2 1. 2 4.7 8.5 Percent of Total Employment Requiring Industrial Land 58 . 4% 51 < ., 'I �I I I I I I I I I. I I I I I l J , , J These projected employment need figures may be multiplied by 58.4% (the 1970 percentage of the total labor force employed in industry groups requiring industrial land) to yield the number of industrial employees requiring land area as follows: TABLE PROJECTED EMPLOYMENT FOR ROSE TOWNSHIP Year Projected Total Employment 1980 1990 2000 2010 1 , 457 2 ,0 64 2,664 3,330 Projected Industrial Employment Requiring Land By Year 850 1,205 1,555 1,944 Studies by County agencies and the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments indicate that a ratio of 20 employees per acre can be anticipated on industrial land. Applying this factor to the foregoing Township employment statistics yields an indication of the amount of industrial acreage required if all residents were to work in the Township . TABLE PROJECTED INDUSTRIAL LAND NEEDS FOR ROSE TOWNSHIP Year 1980 1990 2000 2010 Projected Industrial Employment Requiring Land Industrial Acreage Need 72.8 103.2 133.2 166.5 1,457 2,064 2 ,664 3,330 acres acres acres acres EXISTING INDUSTRIAL LAND USE At the present time, Rose Township has 68.0 acres of land in industrial land use. The entire 68.0 acres is engaged as a land fill . It is apparent from this that most, if not all, Rose Township residents engaged in jobs requiring industrial land work somewhere outside of the Township. The question to be resolved is whether it is necessary and/or desirable to plan for any industrial land use in the future within Rose Township . No matter how much land is planned or zoned for industrial activity, it is not possible to accurately predict how S2 . . .. . ·l �I I I I I I I I I I I many Township residents will work within the confines of the community. The character of the Township and its land use reflect a rural, residential, and agricultural land development pattern with community to employment centers in nearby communities. Because of the lack of available highways, no utilities, and a philosophy of rural development, the proposed pl~n for the Township does not contain specific delineation of any industrial center. Should some specific and desirable proposal for industrial or research-office land use be presented, the Township could be in a position to reconsider its current philosophy and potentially amend the overall Master Plan. 53 ,, ...•· ~, -. �I I I I I I I ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM GOALS AND OBJECTIVES I I I I I I ' ' -~ SECTION 7 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Commission Prepared By: Community Planning & Management , P . C. I �I I I I I I I GOALS AND OBJECTIVES The setting forth of the Community Goals is an important listing of the direction in which the community is to go. This is not a listing of priorities, but it does give an indication as to the current view of the expected future based upon past trends and future expectations. This direction is translated into generalized land use, community facilities and highway proposals by the Planning Commission and the Township Board. All proposals taken together are included in the Township Master Plan. In the broadest sense, the Master Plan may be termed a general policy. Presumably, the plan is a general policy and a group of objectives designed to serve as a guide to consistent and rational public and private decisions in the use and development of land. The policy statement and planning objectives discussed in this report differ from the Master Plan itself in function and in degree of specificity. PURPOSES OF THE MASTER PLAN The purposes of the Master Plan are: I I I 1. To improve the physical environment of the Township as a setting for human activities to promote the general health, safety, and welfare by making the Township more functional, beautiful, decent, healthful, interesting and efficient. 2. To promote the public interest, the interest of the community at large, rather th~n the interests of individuals or special groups within the community. 3. To facilitate the democratic determination and implementation of community policies and physical development. The plan is primarily a policy instrument. The plan constitutes a declaration of long-range goals and objectives and provides the basis for a program to accomplish the goals. By placing the responsibility for determining policies with the Planning Commission and providing an opportunity for citizen participation, the plan facilitates the democratic process. 4. To affect political and technical coordination in community development. 5. To inject long-range considerations into the determination of short-range actions. 6. To bring professional and technical knowledge to bear on the making of political decisions concerning the physical development of the community. I l J , , As an expression of desirable physical development, the Master Plan is an affirmation of goals and ebjectives. 54 '( . �,_ ~ -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TII PLANNING PROCESS INVENTORY ANALYSIS POLICY IMPLEMENT PLANNING ZONING NEIGHIIORHOOO POPULATION UANSPOUATION ANALYSIS STUDY PLAN OI0INANCE •• SUIOIVISION • LAND USE IAU MAP STUDY PUIILIC GOALS FACILITIES OIJECTIVES STUDY STANOAIOS LANO USE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN PLAN REGULATIONS CAPIYAL IMPIOVEMENT REGIONAL ANALYSIS ECONOMIC FACILITIES USE STUDY PLAN IMPIOVHENT PIOGUM �I I I I I I Goals and Objectives General Promote development that is attractive and aesth~tically pleasing. Preserve historic and natural resource features of the Township wherever possible. Place the general welfare of the community ahead of the purely economic interest of development. 1) Land Use: Residential I Promote quality housing, regardless of type in a low and moderate density context to maintain the rural character of the community. • dwelling unit Provide sufficient open space to serve each either through generous yard spaces or common open space areas. I I I I I I J , , l Preserve the off-lake areas of the Township for larger lot and open space residential uses. Establish low density areas around existing lakes to decrease the pollution problems that might occur. Plan medium and high density residential development in specific areas properly served with public and/or private utilities and adequate ingress and egress. Encourage a high percentage of home ownership and permanent housing types. Separate single-family and multiple-family residential areas from other uses and allow low and moderate density townhouse type development to associate more closely with single-family areas in transitional areas. Provide an alternative to continued sprawl development by encouraging cluster development in larger acreage type developments which recognize the natural features and resources of the Township. Commercial Discourage spot and marginal strip commercial development. Provide limited locations for attractive moderate size neighborhood shopping areas to serve expected needs for many years. .. se �I I I I I I I Distinguish by location and type the various commercial uses (i.e. community, local, and highway) in specific zoning districts. Plan for commercial uses where there is existing or projected sufficient support population, or where ther~ will be adequate draw from the highway or the trade area. Place commercial uses at locations of easy access where ingress and egress will not impede traffic flow taking advantage of major access points in the Thoroughfare System. Encourage commercial development in areas where it is most likely to successfully develop (at the intersection of major routes) and in relation to population centers. Encourage the use of landscaping and setbacks to provide pleasant and safe shopping facilities. Promote a particular character of commercial development to establish an identity for the Township, that will be unique and serve the residents of the Township. Industrial Maximize the use of available transportation facilities in the location of industrial areas where appropriate. I Concentrate any industrial areas and buffer them from all residential uses with greenbelts and large setbacks. I I I Favor uses that do not pollute the air, soils, water or offend because of noise or sight. Protect other uses from the intrusion by industry, both physical and visual. 2) Public Facilities: Recreation I I Implement the already adopted Township recreation standards to determine the need for, and location of existing and future recreation sites and facilities. Recognize the need for a variety of recreation facilities encompassing the full range from home yard to community-wide facilities. J , , Provide adequate park and recreation space as an integral part of each development in accordance with the adopted Recreation Master Plan. Encourage cooperation with the school district in providing recreation facilities and programs. J,...,.. • "'·. . ,, 57 �I I I I I Utilize natural features (waterfront, topography, flood plains, etc.) for recreation facilities sites. Provide a variety of facilities and programs to accommodate the recreation needs of all segments of the population when and where appropriate. Township Offices Include the long range planning (a new Township Office center on a site that will be easily accessible to all Township residents. I The Rose Center-Milford Road site is large enough to house all administrative offices as well as fire, police, a library, and a Township meeting facility. I I I. The office site is a part of the community park site. Any new Township Building should give the Township an identity of its own. Public Works Public Works Department when created should maintain all Township public facilities including parks and recreation in accordance with the Recreation Master Plan • I I I I I I I J Sewer and Water Plan development in a way to encourage the efficient extension of sewer and water service where practical and warranted by density. Require community water and sewer systems in new development where the scale of the proposal would justify such a facility when required in the interests of the general health and welfare of the Township. Traffic and Transportation Plan a network of road connections to complete the major and secondary road systems of the Township in cooperation with the Oakland County Road Commission. Correct existing street alignment inadequacies (particularly unsafe areas). Obtain needed right-of-way dedications and reservations. Increase awareness of pedestrian traffic needs by requiring sidewalks or safety paths for use by residents within platted subdivisions. -1...\.-, ... -, .· ......... , . ,~, ......,.,,," . ~ .; aa ~·.. !♦· ~. ;.. 1,, :tt .. :·· . . . -:. �I I I I I I I I Police and Fire Adopt service areas and distance standards for the locations of police and fire facilities. Plan the acquisition of fire station and police facilities sites in advance of need and program joint use facilities where appropriate. Program headquarters structures for the Township Office Center area. Coordinate police and fire protection programs with adjacent communities. Library Future local library as part of the Township Office Center, when needed, based upon population increases. I I I ; 89 ' . �I ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan I r MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM I r THOROUGHFARE PLAN I I I I I I I SECTION 8 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Commission Prepared By: Community Planning & Management, P.C. '- 1. . ... . -~,., .. . . �I I I I I I I I INTRODUCTION Another important element of a community's Master Plan is that portion concerning street and highway planning. In the past, many of the more rural areas relied upon regional and/or county agencies to evaluate and plan the local road system. This process may have accomplished a recognition of regional and county needs, but there was little opportunity for local input or evaluation of how such regional needs met local highway objectives. The traffic and circulation system directly affects the amount and quality of growth in an area. The improvements in highway oriented transportation during the recent years have been instrumental in the rapid urbanization of the Detroit Area and the Flint Area. The complex problems caused by the changing thoroughfare patterns and urban development make it essential that regional and local transportation planning be coordinated with the land use plan to insure sound development and to provide the necessary highway facilities at an economical cost. A very important consideration in planning land development is proper accessibility. The automobile has reoriented land use patterns making the free movement of people and goods essential to the economic and social welfare of the community. The thoroughfare plan must consider the relationship between type and intensity of land uses and the resulting generation of traffic movements to insure orderly development and a desirable environment. Often the thoroughfare plan will shape the urban development pattern, improve the environment and economic efficiency of the land uses, and result in the optimum use of the thoroughfare system. CONCEPTS AND STANDARDS Basic to proper planning of a thoroughfare system is the necessity of formulating appropriate concepts. The basic system is one containing four different functional highway systems. The framework of the road net will provide the format for the community's development for many years in the future. Today's highway systems consist of freeways (expressways), major thoroughfares (major arterials), collector streets, and local streets. The graphic presentation of these types of streets indicate the internal function of the local street system (i.e. local subdivision streets and collector streets) and also depicts the external function of the non-local street system (i.e. local major state routes and expressways). To have a proper understanding of the road network of the community it is important to determine the function and classification of the road system. The following table lists the characteristics of each kind of roadway within the highway system. eo �(. I I I I I I I ,.,,0 '01191, 1a, 8 .. G) C'O ~ I I I C'O >C'O 3 . ... . ,, :, 0 0 u ~ _,0 .. Q) Q) >C'O LL C 0 Local u Q) -~ ' 0, SchoolPark .. ... - (/) 0 0 C'O :E Secondary Thoroughfare STREET CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM CONCEPT •1 .·. .. / .• ... -. ' • 1 �I I I I I I I SUMMARY OF STREET CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM* Expressway and Regional Thoroughfares Major and Secondary Thoroughfares Collector 1. Movement 2. Access primary freeway: none regional: secondary primary secondary equal equal secondar.f primary Principal Trip Length over 3 miles over 1 mile under 1 mile under ltz mile & commercial major generators 1ocal areas individual sites areas secondary generators & commercial areas Interstate & state primary & secondary state primary county roads none 1 mile 1/2 mile 120 1 86 1 Element Local Service Function Linkage 1. Land Uses 2. Rural Highways Spacing Rightof-Way 204 1 to 365 1 60 1 *Adapted from Standards in Manual of Housing/Planning &Design Criteria, Joseph DeChiara &Lee Koppelman, 1975. Adapted by Community Planning &Management, P.C. 1981. Accessibility to an area through the street system can be a major consideration of the Land Use Plan. The above street classification system indicates the various characteristics that are readily identifiable for each type of street. Some functions are overlapping but in the majority of cases, each street type has a specific designation. In the Detroit Metropolitan Area the majority of major thoroughfares follow section lines and the majority of collector streets follow half section lines. Within Oakland County, specific roadway standards have been developed to guide the right-of-way designations and general pavement width depending on the type of road. The graphic "Typical Cross-section of Streets" illustrates the various road types and right-of-way designations. The following table summaries suggested right-of-way and pavement width standards. 82 . '·. �I I I I I I I TYPICAL CROSS-SECTIONS STREETS COLLECTOR ... I MAJOR THOROUGHFARE 124 ~ J DIVIDED MAJOR THOROUGHFARE tto' - 110• URBAN SUPER HIGHWAY OR PARKWAY •••• l :·,: •· :t *These minunum right-of-way and pavement standards are adapted from requi:::nts•.~~ - t~~ oakland County Road Comnission. �I I I I I I I SUMMARY OF ROADWAY PLANNING STANDARDS* Standards for Element Ex2resswai Major Thoroughfare Collector Local A) Right-of-Way 500' 120' 86' 60' B) Pavement Width 12 ' each Urban-60' Rural-24' 36'-44' 27'-32' C) Number of Lanes 4, or more Urban-4 Rural-2 2-4 2 D) Median Width 26' or more 24' or more None None *Adapted from Master Right-of-Way Program, Oakland County Road Commission, Oakland County, Michigan, Fall 1972 edition. EXISTING SITUATION Application of standards to the current roadway situation is the next step in the thoroughfare planning process. The following streets have been categorized by functional element: A) Major Thoroughfares: Milford Road, Fenton Road, Rattalee Lake Road, Eagle Road, Terrace Road, Davisburg Road, Ranch Road, Munger Road, Demode Road, Fish Lake Road, Hickory Ridge Road, Tipsico Lake Road, Rose Center Road, Weber Road, Sackner Road, and Baker Road. B) Collector Streets: Tucker Road, Houser Road, Hickory Ridge Road north of Fenton Road, Bone Road, Taylor Lake Road, Buckhorn Lake Road, Rosell Road, Oakhurst Road, Joel Road, Parker Road, Pool Road, Pepper Road, Chana Road, and Hensell Road. C) Local Streets: All other platted and unplatted streets, public and private within the Township. Judgment in designation of roadways is necessary. Consideration must be given to existing street widths, traffic volumes, pavement conditions, and probable future capacities. Major roads within the Township are paved with various materials ranging from concrete to asphalt. The Oakland County Road Commission has classified certain portions of the Township roadway system by pavement width and pavement type. 83 �, . 'WIii .... I'. --.. .. -- {· ~ ;,":. TY~ON[ INO Tow .. s~ , ~ . 11 TIPSICO ~ .!: .: _; -~ ~ . ., r m '• I • RD.. ' . ~ "' o~~ ,·•\ C') ~ 0 m FISH ---~~;fit I 'U' ;i :xilK.~ ?'j-1 ~ :D C h .. -~ ~~~. :D (J z ~l~ :D I a i: •• -- · (t, . . . (J 'b ' . . -· ,.._ I ~ I £I 1 . r ·~ ~ '1 ~ , s, RO. _• . HD. \ :-~ ~ ~ ,;,- 1~ ; A.\ . . ' I\, i.- • _, ,,. • ~ (_ -~ ,, 1, ,,. ,1 --"t_-....tl.. ,. t..- ; • . ~e . ( _,;. ' ORMOND_:._ . :} ~--- !=' ~ 8 (:D ..... (J / ] C -I Jr< ~~ ~~ ~~~ '"'!""-'./ f""' r' m~R,, V fi! ' r " ,, r- I.Qi!' .. •0:• •• - ~ - I • 0 . RD en m ~ '" • 0 :c . IJ\? ? • &,t, r '. • .. FALK ,. ; . 0 :c C , .. .,, -©1/ • . :i I .. , It ·. -'// · ,tuo, ~]J - 0 ( ; WEBER ~ il~W '. ,, ~~ o L. RO.' ~ ... !~ 11 l!,. ~ 1 ~ gJ ..-;--: ,.; Alli= I I :c (jl__ - :D ,] / , ,_;..:t it I~ I> I I , RD . ~ ( _J 4 !10, TERRACE ' ~ .. < iii ' ~ -;;r..'Jf~ r- ~ :D :D 0 _,._...., . ,'- ~ ~ ' .. ": l5 . .,...{) ti,·,. 6!:·' ,~ ::1> 6), _;',, d "m - .. .. ~ D : t ., ' a .~l-- . • oRMoND :D 0 or-~) 1;fi ~-:.' ~ ~.I \ {'.!;) <=>lgj -4 0 ,--1 . oi,' !• '- JO~ ~ - - ..'.!...-- ~ I / ;:: z' z .. , i l'f • l:c lcng ~l, · nJl, ~ -/fi<: ~ I ' )> ~ ~ (J , :: ,, FORO( 0 /' "ll <:> :...,. ~\ •.•i :D - ~_,,J RD . l(J '"'- ~~t :;;-✓✓- 'b ...;. ' il (},i_,......_..- ~~· t\il\ 1W OAKHuAsr ~ ;;. ~ I, - I :~ . -v l:o > P\PPER 1 ~ ) FISH © , ,- • ~cai ~ () l .• ·~ RD. > \_ ' ,. .,, ::a 0 .,, • • • • "--./ - ➔ e!J ~-~~~ e - . -- ~ : D ~ ' , ,.. W~E .r ILFORD ) RMi"lND -::_ ~ O:,{)-.._..__ '., n, . . · ,' \~ l '{: ~ ,l - ~$'.flt • ' :oxi ,.__,,... ,,, - , - • ~ - - - - :D . ll,I ',: '• :ii I ,'• jt,P I. . It;, . , ~ i ~:D ·· : : i o ,> UC KHO RN ~ ~ - i ::;f ::: K .: :~ 9 [" = ~t,t~ . P,71 o om, '\. LAKE ~ .,. ~( ' \,_ D ~b o . RD. c; . . . ~'t-__,.• ~'-~· . " I·..... ,:: •~: • ~,:: ~ " p - o- ,a/ (J,RIOGE 1 ... A I , 1!,11' I ' i ~ ,1 ~-~ •t · ,I i "· -~ltfh ,· \ ·b ""'D ~ LAK~• -. .; , RD . ~, i:t:> ...tP, - HICKORY .,~lg~~- ' 't. ., •• •• !>O."<> (,.,c" :x, -...J 1, TOWIIIISH I P ..,. C""" Illll . . I'm~'" : ....... d!,,- - n, Au .• .C,JJ r - - - - - -. - . "' , __' ,., r~ 0 ::a 0 C: G) :c -n ► ::a m .,, . r► z �I I I I I I I ROSE TOWNSHIP Oakland County Michigan MASTER PLAN UPDATE PROGRAM FUTURE LAND USE PLAN SECTION 9 Prepared For: Rose Township Planning Commission Prepared By: Community Planning ,i .. : ...._ •. ··. & Management, P.C. �-I I I I I INTRODUCTION The last section of the Master Plan process is the drafting of a Future Land Use Plan. The plan is to be used as a generalized guide for evaluating development proposals when presented to the community. The plan illustrates various generalized land use categories. Seven land use categories are depicted on the Land Use Plan. These include: residential, commercial, agricultural, rural residential, multiple, mobile home subdivision, recreation public and semi-public. The agricultural category comprises a density of ten acre minimum lot size. The rural residential assumes a minimum lot of five acres per site while the single family residential density equates to a minimum lot of 1.5 acres each. Land use allocations are dependent upon existing land use, as well as plans and projections of various agencies for public and semi-public facilities, and plans for proposed area-wide facilities within the Township. Acreages on the plan have been calculated on the basis of land measurement for each category. Within each allocation, specific land use items have been enumerated. Allocations were made after taking a number of known factors and assumptions into account. These are listed as follows: 1) Recognition and preservation of Natural Features such as lakes, streams, swamps. 2) Recognition of existing land uses and major use areas. 3) Inclusion of Road Plan designations. 4) Coordination with new Zoning Ordinance designations. 5) Recognition of current and potential parcel sizes. 6) Acknowledgement of soil conditions. 7) Recognition of influences that surround the Township such as growth pressures from Fenton and Holly. 8) Preservation of rural character of the Township. 9) Coordination of Commercial, Office and Service designations with apparent market demand. 10) Retention of residential development character in designating acreage areas. 11) Deintensifying Land Use Proposals in most areas since the 1972 Master Plan. ' . . ' �I I I I I I I 12) Coordination of proposed land use with adopted Recreation Master Plan. 13) Retain character and flavor of existing land use areas through appropriate planning designation. Residential The future land use designations on the Master Plan Map have been divided into several categories. The intent here is to allocate all land area of the Township into a specific land use classification for use in determining future growth patterns. The plan should be used as a guide for decision-making when site specific developments are proposed. The plan categories retain all existing water bodies, swamps, and all existing road rightsof-way. The revised Master Plan recognizes the very rural nature of Rose Township, and the majority of the Township (81%) is shown as Agricultural, Rural, or Single Family Residential on the Plan. Those areas shown as Single Family Residential on the Plan try to recognize the more densely developed residential areas such as those around Tipsico Lake and Fish Lake. These areas account for 16.6% of the land area of the Township. Areas of Multiple Family Residential land use comprise 0.4% of the land area of Rose Township as shown on the plan. These have been placed near major traffic arteries (existing or planned) so as to minimize congestion, or in areas where the multiple areas might serve as a buffer between lower density residential areas and some other less compatible use. A new land use category has been added to the revised plan. The existing Mobile Home Subdivision area at the north end of the Township is now included as a land use. This area comprises 260 acres or 1.2% of the total Township. The single family densities projected are very low due to the lack of public utilities through the year 2000. At present, none of the neighboring communities has the capacity to extend utility lines into the Township. More concentrated residential areas, such as subdivisions and multiple developments should be planned to include private utility systems to serve that particular concentration of dwelling units. Areas designated in the Agricultural use account for approximately 9,044 acres or 39.3% of the Township. This vast majority of the land area of Rose Township can be expected to retain its rural character in the future and therefore the density is proposed at a lower density. Commercial Three areas of commercial land use are depicted on the revised Land Use Plan. One is located at the intersection of Fenton Road and Milford Road, one along Davisburg Road at Lake Braemer, and •• �the third at Rose Center Road and Hickory Ridge Road. Each commercial area is located so as to be near the areas of more concentrated population in future years. These three commercial areas will account for a total of thirty (30) acres of land when fully developed. Recreation Public & Semi-Public The Future Land Use Plan includes areas of public and semi-public recreation facilities in operation at this time as well as areas of planned Township parks and other community facilities. Since the majority of the existing recreation in Rose Township is semi-public in nature, the Plan includes the proposals of the adopted Recreation Master Plan of the Township. That Recreation Plan suggests several community parks ranging in size from 20 to 40 acres each. The various camps, launching site (DNR), cemeteries, and other public type land uses account for a total of 1,080 acres or 4.7% of the Township. The Plan contains projections of future road rights-of-way, however, the land use allocation retains the existing roadway system in terms of area. The coordinated thoroughfare system with the Oakland County Road Commission has been included in the Township Plan proposals. The following table indicates the land use allocations by category for the revised Master Plan. PROJECTED LAND USE TABULATION FOR ROSE TOWNSHIP Category Acres % of Total Agricultural (10 acre min.) Rural Residential (5 acre min.) Single Family Residential (1.5 acre min.) Multiple Family Mobile Home Subdivision Commercial 7. Recreation, Public, Semi-Public 8. Roads• 9. Water• 10. Swamps• 11. Railroads• 9,044 5,785 3,827 79 260 30 1,080 720 1 , 211 851 108 39-3 25. 1 16.6 0.4 1.2 0. 1 4.7 3. 1 5.3 3.7 0.5 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 22,995 •currently existing. j ee 100.0% �• •I HOLLY TCWNSH P I I RR AGRICULTURAL RESIDENTIAL RR RURAL RESIDENTIAL $FR , _ - AG (5 (10 AC.) AC.) SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL ( 1.5 AC.) < J R A 0 ,, RM MULTIPLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL MHS • T C COMMERCIAL RPS ,2 - MOBILE HOME SUBDIVISIO~ RECREATION, PUBLIC, & SEMI-PUBLIC INDUSTRIAL Fl O A 0 w z 0 a: RR >- a. -I t- (/) z •I • •I I I I I • ;;: 0 t- J ft O A 0 ' 0 _j w LJ.. R AG l'.) z a: a. >- ·"" t- z (/) =i C) u ,. " z 0 t(/) l? z AG > .....- r' <J AG .o R4 RO A. D CH .. . ~ PLAN MASTER ' G . 0 0 ~ ,. 2 PUBLIC HEARING: MAY 21, 1 9 8 1 ADOPTED av PLANNING COMMISSION : AUGUST 20, 1981 ROSE OAKLAND ROSE TOWNSHIP COUNTY ' TOWNSHIP MICHIGAN PLANNING COMMISSION AG - AG ,L :--... . • '- RR /I)"/ HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP & MAN"GE"'ENT • P. C. uTiCA , "'icltiGAIO � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rose-Twp_Master-Plan_1981 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rose Township Planning Commission, Rose Township, Oakland County, Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1981-08-20 Title A name given to the resource Master Plan Description An account of the resource The Master Plan for Rose Township was prepared by the Rose Township Planning Commission with technical assistance from Tod J. Kilroy, AICP and was adopted on August 20, 1981. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tod J. Kilroy, AICP (consultant) Subject The topic of the resource Master plan reports Rose Township (Oakland County, Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/952ae18f2269d178878c9dc074b68cc0.pdf 4cca0cc896e8f9605b48d9d321f46cb8 PDF Text Text D r Outllno of outmootcd id a, mt ri.tll, photogmphc11 bbis oto, £or corm111nrt tm Goldon Book, Hore\.lith I 0t1 plo--ood to cub:Jit f o r ~ ~ t : t o n t rial, doour:ionto, plx>to!!mpho, oto. t-hlch ido:io, tho Golden Book. t o tho axplmu io , and i.,bo nt1ficcl by :l in thio procent tion. photo nuraoor, olnll try to c.italon :in a ayoto tio pha are !'Oferrad tw and picture A bo uood to good advnntaee uith oub:littod, or rojooti.nc, ro-oditina, or of id tifi tion ruil roforano , For purpo o.c:sortaont or vnriouo You DOod mvo no h ita.ncy in oolootine or dio- 1al h rovnopina aeythine inclu i 01 GOOt to, I uUl. havo properly ignato the oienifironoe on~ HIS'.OOjg l. :hibiu l. bit 2. llintoey or tho Co .. • Artiol tion. of coocic.tio - Concro tion Sons 0£ Iomalite ( by 6, 19ll). 3. Er.hibit '2A. 3, l~~). I mol. 4. ·~lmlv!70d to zation B'mi Icmel ( .D:>o bor 14, 1945). (Dxllibi~ 1 RITH It u111 bone If it cure on o Lod 1 o 25th Anni~ OOIT1od Exhibit o and p1"0 r story. of tho brochuro... printed to colebro.t r:,, · t oould c rro tho purpooo ooll, a rotbor coupleto him·.,,'""' #3 io a cod 1n _ AB ti c iDilo or tha IAld3 • o t or ch �-2- £... tmrr JE\ ISH CJIARITIES Tbo histo:ey of tm United Jowioh Cho.ritioo of ?ual:ogon clxmld bJ proinrod. In thio oonneotion, tho brochuroo publlobod ormuolly t,r.ill afi'ord a eood rooord of the orenm,zo.tion• o El:hibit ~ ia typiCtll. of thio ond poroonnal and aotivitieo. i tll) 1911':>-J.,7 anmn1 rap:,rt carryin{; a. picturo of tbo Clniram of tho yoor - J. I. ira-.~-n.~.... Sfoil nr ono::i C!lll bo rod for both p:rov-louo and au cequant yoaro. 11,. SJSrEm_m A rooord of tho Sim; hood ohould bo }X."OVidod. io a duplioat of mt Exhibit 5 o turniohad 1:tr Siotorhood tor bo T~a oomaroto • Thio ieht troll included in Book, but S!.otorh:lod obould furnioh oo thin::! a too Gold n itioml to m.."}Utlin 1to ooopo and purp:>oo. 1o n c1upll t tlapo it in tm ~ ot t codb fumiohod fo oornorotono. Very l1ltoly t v.ill t to auppl nt tbio vi.th a Exhibit io o. duplloato cow of w t thio Aooociation fumiohod .tor po... tin tho ~ o oomoroto • Som ion hould do of this orew,1zntion in tho Goldon Book, prolnbly bJ oJ.thoueh tional mtcrial. \J\ tho orenm tion lnc clroody bocn diooolvod or 1e to bo disoolvod, oo that tho oontrol of tbe with too ColllJl'Oeation itool.f. confirz:l thio undorotruxibJe. tor.r vill bo mrgod yu-,ur Rosenberg can correct or �.,. -3- A.. g;ipRIAL REOOIDTIOI S 1. n:chibi·t 8 io too rooolution on tho p:iosine of IOOJlo Groso:;nn. ~~c,...,,,J... 2. ~bit 9 :ropraoonta therr'.3oolution for Rabbi Aaron Collon. note: I sub:lit toooo oo::Drial rooolutiona not kno\line, t.rb.3ther Cl' not tho, mvo a. proper plo.co in too Goldan Book. l1e. iJSKECDl! HOUSE OF JR _ISII JORSHIP l. Too .uabJgon Houao of Jowioh k>robip me orgru.iood to promte a.nd build o. bouoo or w1·ohip and oca:nmity cantor for Groo.tor 2. I:x11ib1t /JlO is a. dup.Uoato of too Prosidont'o :roi:ort ple.coa in tho Templ.o comerstono. 3. D:hibit /110'1 is tbo rocoipt fro tho stato of lichignn for filine tho first mr.ort of thio oorpomtion in the yoor 19.38. 4. r:xhibit #l.OB entitled n tlle!w&".)n J'om.oh Cor:nunity 1 s Droo.n Sm.U Eo Fulffilod" ia a promtii ml broclm.ro preoontine too ooo:p3 a d philooop~ of the plo.rmine in connootion mth this projootJ aloo olx>wa tho floor plans of tba h:dldinc, and too offioorc us of tho &.to of tha Broclnn'e, Dec h'Jr 1945. aoo liato tm mmo of tbs various ru:ibara vb:> contri- !i. ~ b i t butions mde this projoot possiblo, and allow too o.mounto or their 1-eop:.,ctive contributions from tho tzl.tlo the projoot ms otartod through too yao.r 1947. 6. Suppl JO tn1 liot mrkod Exhibit /llOD obow oontributoro,, and 7. OO.JG E7Jrl.bit OO::D ooincr friando c.nd tm no~bor rolutivoo of our 00t1boro, buoinaas anoociatoa. Dl<E io c pootogmph takon in t!'.la ooaoment of J. H. Kautmn' a homo during the fall of 1947 oh>lr"J.Dg mot of tho offlooro, bonrd e-,,J -,cL_ mn:i'oora, o.nd cou.ttoo mr:iboro, \Jh:>oo mI!lOO ~~~~~~;:_j~fit ~~,ct-<..,. pl 2 9 ef tih:1.s leb~O% boad-. .._.,...._"\.4..,,U-0,~ �.. ..,I -· -4z._ PIDTOGRAPHS O 1. Exhibit 11 aboUG brooking crouna. 2. Exhibit ~ - prior to blaoolna tho first at00I:10b:>vol. 3. FMlibit UB - otonouorl: tal:oo £om. l., CERE!D?~ - prograr.i of tho oooaaion. l. Exhibit - 2. Comorotono Corooonioo o.t tl:o Ocaidontal Hotol. (a) E::hibit 613 - B 1na1 'nth pirtioi:rntion. (b)('~oo.ling t ~~ (c) mitbibit #l3B - Symbolic plaoine of tho cornorstom. (d) Exhibit l3C ~ -;1 oottinefhe Gt (o) ::lt9.bit 13D-A t (£) Ixhibit l~ - At 't V. - 1. ~bit 2. Exhibit .3. Exhibit 1n ite af't r o oit oft r too buildiXJe. u ing. ttinc. (bl city, fli:l.J.L:.Ueon CbrJoniolo llovo:ib:Jr J.3 1948. 9J4A - Publioity, tu.J3 - P.rocrmz:i of 7unlro n Cbroniclo ~ va:100r 20, 1948• tion and t stiI:Dnial dinner 4. llicbib1t tl4C - Replica ot t otiiooniaJ. oaroll pre loo • i.ODen 5. ~:hibit ttl.n IT@ 6. Clllted to #otitr.>niol dinner, A n d ~ ~ , ~ . tt...:v - Group piottn'O at,t ntiloonicl. dinner on SU.'lday• sstber :;;.,~. ~ :hibit /!l.lJ?, - SpoQb)rs tabl.o e.t,,tootioonial dinnorJen Omrlsift ~ r P.i;=l?tc. 7. Exhibit /ill+F Lao s. Bosen) ro entation of Scroll (Po.ul ~otitx,niaJ. dillner on • Wionor to sun&y, ~oVGmbor 21., 1948. 8. Exhibit 1/UJJ - Ib1n ol)OQb)r, Pro.foe r IDuia tirt,h, at o ic'.ltion oorvicoo. �,.,._. .. -5h_ OFFIC OOUGBEGru'IO l B111AI ISRAEL WRD G PERIOD OF WIL 1_ £7.hibit /115 - Duplicnto of doaurmit pl.aced in .,,OLlpl.o oomorotono obouing Coneror!a.tion offioaro and truatoos £or tho year 1947. 2. Exhibit 15A - Lotterhood ot Concroention trustooc of Congroeotion 'mi Iom.ol. 3. r chowing of'fioaro and I 9 If 7. bit #1513 - Lottorboad obotdng Of'fioa:-o and Rabbi of Congrega- tion 'mi Iomol f'or tho yoor 1948 uhon th buildirJc 4. l:xbibit l.1.50 - Lott r~d ohouine Of icoro of COD{Iro[;3tion 'mi IolUOl £or too year 1949. m no cu-rront lott rlo:l. , co th \r.i.ll lnvo to fumioh ono. 01 1a1 Pl11lX> do ....oro~ to nrd 1'm1i bing tho bulldine aontributo , Lr aey, £0 iezntod. (In thiD list I propo !hioh too contribution mo to ho 1 in ividml it ,a. .. ~ f'ur.ni bingo o reea f'urniol~rdo m "ch oontributiono \,itho1. docign,J.ting OOl'C in too ai:x,un t, otod. and Truotooo and Rabbi I t : I 1. ~ bit 16 - Lict co \:OO o of ro da, roof, cm in ov t ouch con r-lbuti no rtJ O ll poroon, tbo llot ,rill 00 Sigmte, 1.0., (?~ h-i.l. H. o. ~ and childroll, the NflttJ' in the bin Auditorium, 1n Il9IX>ry of husbuld and !'ather, II. ~. Flaxr.nn, 1l' • Iaoao Groso::nn and cblldron, f'umiohineo in the c..a11 Clnpol, d fatbor, I o Gro D:l'.lll, in ceoory of buahuld Jr...., -~. • Fro Ro 0£1, t Et nn1 Lieht in tl~ &nll Cmpol, in aomr.17 o£ 11r..r--, ; , ~ llllllii ?-,:tt , d ~ , -:tdr '"ko, ~ 1 ref!! df:,e i\:el 1 1.,---= __ _ ~· If - bod of oaic,ntinc too oontribntoro 1o I obc.11 procoed to lnvo a list oo:mletod.) !L_ ISRAELI IDOM o, ZIONIST .fa. MEt-ORIALS - na.roos only ticfactorJ• �February 3, 1950 During my term of presidency, Jacob Klitzner was hired in the year 1940 as a Schochet and Baal Kore. This is from copy of the signed agreement confinning this arrange::nent. / Rosen �TITLE Contributors to the Temple List of members, names and their resp:3ctive contributions, also special contributors and non-members. List of contributors for Temple furnishings. Past Presidents of Congregation Show terms of office, refer to history, seek further infonmtion. Sim,agogue Original Brochure showing scope Dedication speeches and remarks Testimonials Note the date on Testimonial to R. Berman, Sadin, Gross.man, etc. My response at Testimonial Dinner. B,a.bbis of the Con~regation Should show dates of service and eliminate Klitzner (See my note 2/3/50 ro Klitzner) Pa.st Presidents of B. B0 Correct omissions - Leos. Rosen in the in years prior to 1925-26. 1 20s and others Memorials . List of donors, individuals commemorated. U, J, c, of Muskegon 1936-41 Chairman - Leos. Rosen (or if easier 1936-40) 19,41-42 Chairman - Paul Wiener ijisto;rx Lake District Resettlemont for Refugees. ... LEE- ' I .,, �/tlt If J':. LJ. l If ~LI- /_/r / f$f~i.il j / ~ 7, I 7 �I ... ,._-•·· ---·~ .,..__ .22Jt... ,__< - - _ \ ,---'\ . / ~ ---- -~- If ¾✓f4:3 J?.,7,,? "'-/.v I fl✓fl'- ✓,z; ·--. �TO POSTERITY HAIL / It is our great pleasure tb1s 2 6 t ~ of N o v e ~ the year 1947, the 14th day of Kislev 5708, to enci,-?a ;;;oran~ for the cornerstone of our new Temple • " :"' ( The Past"f:realdents 1n the order of their reign are as follows: Mrs. Mrs. Mrs. Miss Mrs. Mrs. Mrs. Mrs. rs. Mrs. Mrs. Mrs. Mrs. Mrs. Mrs. ANNA RUBINSKY HARRIETT GROSSMAN ESTHER GROSSMAN FANNIE ROSEN ROSE BERMAN LILLIAN NIMS MARTHA GUDELSKY BIRDIE KOLBERT Y ROSE BERNICE WEINBERG MIRIAM FISHER MILLIE RODOFF ROSE LAWSON GENE BERMAN HORTENSE BERMAN The pre nt president is Hortense Berman, end Sisterhood Bnai Israel is destined to ha a successful and eventful year. May this prophecy in all reality be fulfille The present officers and board are as follows: President 1st Vice 2nd Vice Secretary Treasurer Hortense Berman ranc1s August S hie Lebow Ros Lawson Mill Rodoft Temple Chairmen Membership Program Publicity Hostess & Supplies Uniongrams Fund Ra is 1ng / P.T.A. & Educatiob Fannie Rosen Memorial Hospitaler Cradle Roll s.o.s. & Y1ckup House of Living Judaism Telephone Squad HB/RL Board Members Lillian Cane Mollie Silverman Pauline Weiner Gene Berman Pest President Mercy Locke President Hadasseh hairmen Flo ence Rosen Ann Fisher Irene Segel Gene Berman Roslyn ros sman Esther Stein Reva Le Rose Rose ~erg Lillian Cane Dora Berma Sylvia Rogers Francis Augu t Sophie Lebow Ada Hecht Mollie Silverman Martha Gudelsky Gene Berman Helen Roberts Francis Steindler Miriam Fisher Beck Epste 1n Respectfully Submitted, President--Sisterhood Bnai Israel, �Paul Schlossman & Mrs. Max Scbubb Mr. & Mrs. Abe Shmookler Mr. & Mrs. Samuel Siegel Mr. & Mrs. Harold A. Silverman r. & ,rs. Sol. Silverman Louie & Barbara Ann Silverman Mr. F.d. Simco Mr. & Ura. Joe Simon Mr. & llrs. s.J. Singer Ur. & Mrs. Joe Singer William Sny4e,.._.,r_ .... 'ifr. & Mrs. Fredriak Stein Mr. Mr. & Crs. W.lton Steindler •r. & llrs. Carl Steindler Kr. & llrs. William Stern Ur.&: Mrs. Joe s. Strif'ling Ray & lierman Strifling Mr. & lira. S.J. Tessle~ Mr. & Mrs. Eli Smith Mr. & rlrs . Charles Smith Mr. & Mrs. Mr. & Mrs. Mr. & Urs. Mr. & J.Irs. George Wein g Josiah Wiener Paul Wiener 14orton L. Wolfe � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Temple B'nai Israel Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Temple B'nai Israel (Muskegon, Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States Muskegon (Mich.) Scrapbooks Synagogues Women--Societies and clubs Minutes (Records) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Preston, Marilyn Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource L'dor V'dor (project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Text Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Circa 1920s-2018 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-08_BI-GoldenBookOutline Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosen, Leo S. Title A name given to the resource Golden Book Outline Description An account of the resource Outline of suggested ideas, material, photographs, etc. for compiling the Golden Book. Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States Muskegon (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project. Relation A related resource L'dor V'dor (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be9f3a4481977101d3f967604e2a46bd.m4v ce51212d68fd2b6a4ed1d24318b5dab0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3713de853103d9a3d059837296bf1755.pdf 19dd0cf5bc86308f2950182d2367c661 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Larry Rosencrans Vietnam War 1 hour 44 minutes 12 seconds (00:00:16) Early Life -Born in Muskegon Michigan, on December 2nd 1948. -Grew up in Muskego, but moved often. -Attended school in Whitehall and several other schools. -Step father worked various jobs: construction, roofing, baking, bus driving, postal carrier, raised animals, etc. -Graduated from Oakridge High School in 1967. -During high school worked at a foundry. -Received his draft notice in 1969. -Signed up for college, but drafted before taking classes. -Had lost older friends to the Vietnam War already. -Although he didn’t go out of his way to pay close attention to news of the War, he did pick up on a number of things. -Recalls getting out of Ravenna High School the day Kennedy was shot. -Saw newscasts during the time of the Tet Offensive. -Considered moving to Canada in spite of the draft. -However he chose to be drafted. -Took a vote amongst their family. -Family was no stranger to hunting and using guns. (00:05:00) -He was familiar with hunting for purpose. -However he was not interested in killing people. -Busses shuttled them from downtown Muskegon to Detroit for physical exams. -Exam standards did not seem too picky. Very rushed. -Some men attempted to fail the exam by getting drunk the night before. -After physicals they were sent back to Muskegon for induction. -Next they were sent to Detroit once again. -Captains were ordering certain men to wax the floor. Basic Training at Fort Knox and AIT Training at Fort Polk -From Detroit they were sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training. -He was not a smoker or drinker, so often he would be indoors in the barracks. -He trained with a number of people from Muskegon as well. -Training consisted of marching, firing range practice, working to think as a unit, exercise. -The camp next door had an ersatz pool full of sugar sand. -Swimming was part of that unit’s routine. (00:10:00) -In general the drill sergeants treated them like dirt. -He has a hearing condition that caused him to hear vowels differently. �-E.g. hearing “towel” instead of “shovel”. -Caused him to frequently get punished for what was a misunderstanding. -They never followed up on his explanations. -Basic training lasted about 6 ~ 8 weeks. -Their Sergeant conflicted with the top Sergeant of the Company and got fired. -And so they trained without a Platoon Sergeant for a time. -Eventually their platoon was given a “babysitter”. -During their assignment he was chosen for officer school. -He was assigned to Tigerland in Fort Polk Louisiana for infantry training. -Never applied for officer’s school. -Likely chosen because his scores were good. -He also had a SPN number (SPN or SPD or SDN code) that was a secret code intended to show to potential employers that he would be a “trouble maker”. -Fort Polk weather was just like a humid jungle. -Locals would occasionally fire guns dangerously nearby. -Mock Vietnamese villages were setup. -Training in mud. (00:15:00) -A Jeep was buried amongst the mud. -While they were being lectured they had a mock Viet Cong sneak up behind the speaker to illustrate the importance of awareness. -Some of the military training officials had already been to the War in Vietnam. -Heard highly unconventional things from them about taking their own weapons with them. -E.g. sawed-off shotguns. -The veterans told them stories about mutilations, from both sides. -They were exposed to gas to experience what it would be like. -He desired to be as prepared as possible, so he requested to repeat the gas chamber. -There were opportunities to leave the base. -However he wasn’t interested. -Not interested in partying. -The town wasn’t considered safe. (00:20:00) -While growing up he was heavily exposed to Christian teaching. -He was on the Bible debate team. -AIT training at Fort Polk lasted about 6 ~ 8 weeks. -At the graduation exam, the entire Company failed. -Part of the exam: blind folded gun assembly. -While piercing a tire with his bayonet it got stuck. -Friends of his that got lost on a maneuver. -They sent them all to Vietnam anyway. -They were given X amount of days before reporting to San Diego to depart to Vietnam. -Larry, with his friends, convinced a local to fly them via biplane to the airport. -Returned home from there before departing to Vietnam. -The buck sergeants that were doing the training were new and in training themselves. -Flew home via a civilian chartered plane. �(00:25:00) -On the flight to Vietnam they stopped in Alaska, then an island of Japan, then to Vietnam. -Possible they may have stopped at the Philippines as well. Vietnam in the Jungles -Uncertain of their landing site, but it was either Long Binh or Bien Hoa -Landed in Vietnam during the day. -Next took another vehicle to a different site closer to their unit. -Upon landing he was struck by the powerful smell of the musk and rot in the jungle. -Witnessed piles high of black body bags with dead soldiers. -The veteran soldiers were highly emotional at the sight of their arrival. -He arrived in Vietnam in July of 1969. -An adjustment to earlier statements: -May have taken a flight from Okinawa to this Vietnam base. -Near Saigon. A base very large in size. -Locals attempted to sell the new soldiers a variety of items. -E.g. marijuana packed in cigarettes for $2.00. (00:30:00) -Eventually they arrived at Camp Enari, near Pleiku Vietnam. -4th infantry division’s base. -Next they proceeded to their brief training. -Shooting at “pop up” mock targets. -Included women, children, dogs. -Instruction on hygiene: keeping their feet dry to avoid dry rot. -Shots up to date. -No training on Vietnamese culture or locals. -He was assigned to 1st [Battalion] of the 12th [Regiment] 4th Infantry [Division], Charlie Company, the second platoon. -Upon his arrival his platoon was out in the jungle. -He was dropped off at landing zone Penny (LZ Penny). -Endured some minor attacks while they waited for the platoon to return. -They returned on August 3rd, and he left with them the next day. -Adjusting to the new experiences was a lot to take in. -Getting cut on foliage, mosquitoes, paranoia about noises, weather. -A machine gunner had his weapon caught on a branch and shot himself in the leg. -No thorough instruction: they were given roles amongst their team walking in the jungle. -Using the machete in front. -Being “on point” by the third day. (00:35:00) -Taking turns having guard duty. -The entire Company was out in the jungle on a sweep. -Heavy casualties meant that many roles were left empty. -The first night in the jungle he experienced. -Very uncomfortable but not attacked. -Humidity, mosquitoes, downpours, then fog. -Recalling another night; they were waiting for a Lieutenant to arrive. �-One of the soldiers had prostitutes flown in to the site. -It was at that time the Lieutenant arrived. -Essentially ignored the situation. -Larry as well as a soldier of Hopi Indian descent were the only two to abstain. (00:40:00) -Began volunteering for assignments. -Considered it more desirable than the alternatives. E.g. spit shining. -At that point would have preferred to “take a bullet” just to get out of Vietnam. -Leading up to this, a number of experiences that wore out his stamina for the War: -A large assault on an NVA position -Given food, movies, and a free call home. -He came down with malaria three times. -Given flu shots for his malaria symptoms. -Eventually when he had malaria the fourth time, sent to Japan. -Was not treated for malaria properly by the military. -Additionally he was allergic to penicillin. -Also while in the Japanese hospital (later) he found out he had G6PD. -A genetic blood condition. -The jungle is so thick that you can’t see more than a foot ahead of you. (00:45:00) -Happened upon some kind of ancient pyramid structure in the jungle. -While on assignment to pick up a CIA “ghost”. -After coming to a town that had been abandoned in their expectation, his comrades wanted to rob the locals of their abandoned valuables. -He managed to talk them out of it. -Once they found the CIA “ghost” they insisted that he walk in front of them through jungle. -Because of distrust of government officials. -E.g. government had claimed there was a cease fire on New Year’s, however it was a lie. -Wondered whether he could be a double agent. -Another type of assignment he would volunteer for: -Listening for any movement. -Communicated via radio noise. -A friend he knew was on a listening assignment when a tiger attacked him. (00:50:00) -Witnessed explosions, tracers, and bullets in the background and in the sky at night. -A different time, this was shortly after he arrived, there was a rocket attack. -Killed their motor team, three men and a sergeant were wounded. -Returned fire which granted him a combat infantry medal. -Yet another event while rescuing a platoon: -He was injured in his finger. -Several soldiers were killed in an ambush. -He cleared the way and returned with the platoon. (00:55:00) -Recounts an attack where he injured his hand. -It was not life threatening and so they opted to wait until the next day to treat it. -Their experiences were of living in the jungle. Not at a base. �-He became a radio operator. He would hear surreal and shocking things over radio. -E.g. soldiers that would leave the area to go to the bathroom, lapse in protocol and be mistakenly shot by their own soldiers. (01:00:00) -One assignment he was ordered to protect bulldozers. -Due to the monsoons and the chaos they were likely drinking the chemicals from Agent Orange. -They would use M113 carriers to flush enemies out of the brush. -Riding the carriers like a horse or a bull. -Some soldiers would harass locals doing their wash by shooting near them and watching them flee. -One instance, on the M113 carrier he ran into a nest of ants. -After throwing his shirt into the carrier hatch he accidentally spread the ants to those inside. -His duration with the 4th Infantry Division lasted approximately from August 3rd until October of 1969. (01:05:00) Leaving Vietnam and Fort Hood -Signed up for training in small engine repair. -He was taken by helicopter back to Camp Enari and then back to the base where he was to be trained. -His new superior was pleased to have a soldier with experience as a new mechanic. -Not a “pencil pusher” type. -No formal training. Learning as you go. -A few days later he came down with malaria again. -Some time in November. -Before Christmas at some point he was taken to Japan for his malaria. -Stayed there until February. -Now he is intended to be sent back to the US. -Requires flying back to Vietnam to do so. -Once back in Vietnam he discovered he had no flying or traveling orders. (01:10:00) -Eventually he traded money in exchange for getting his flying orders. -Leaves Vietnam in February. -Is sent to Fort Hood, Texas. -Given enough to go home to see family before returning to Fort Hood. -In the US, he was insulted during times he would wear his uniform. -Despite any political disagreement, he was proud for his service. -At Fort Hood, he was assigned the light heavy duty mechanic duty. -Then became a clerk, and a motor pool clerk. -Worked as a specialist. -Had on job training for automotive repair. -Because of these new benefits it was highly tempting to remain in the military. -But because of the seeming senselessness of some decision making he desired to leave. -His duration at Fort Hood lasted from 1970 to 1972. -He was present during the protest by Jane Fonda. (01:15:00) �-During his time there he would drink occasional wine (mixed with soda). -During his time in the hospital in Japan he smoked marijuana once. -Then at Fort Hood he had marijuana occasionally. -Served a purpose for him to lessen his nightmares and help relax. -The military didn’t attempt to convince him to remain in the service. -He made his intentions clear. Returning to Earlier Comments, Misc. and Post War Life -Encountered the local Vietnamese during sweeps. -After the one battle, they swept a significant city nearby. -Encountered them in observation, searching, etc. -Not very much prolonged interaction. (01:20:00) -Garbage dumps had to be guarded so locals couldn’t make weapons. -The moral when he arrived in Vietnam was very low. -Casualties and attacks had worn them down. -Have low expectations: “consider yourself already dead”. -That way everything else is a positive. -Regarding his location when he was flown out for the small engine repair assignment: -Last leg of his flight took him into Saigon. -Yet there’s no flight from there so he’s required to take a taxi with guns and ammo. -Had a lengthy conversation with the taxi driver about his home life and beliefs. (01:25:00) -Did not witness very much racial tension on the base during his time. -Because he was in the jungle, the situation was different. -Required more trust. (01:30:00) -At Fort Hood he had quite a few black friends. -In one situation they were made to leave a German club. -Dreams and nightmares from his service still linger. -Undertook stress management at the VA. -However the bureaucracy and legalities are a burden. -Has not received his purple heart. (01:35:00) -During one of his malaria recovery periods in treatment there was rocket fire nearby. -They moved the patients to a bunker. -He met Johnny Cash while they were taking refuge in the bunker. -After his discharge from the military in 1972 he went to Muskegon Community College. -Went for auto mechanics. -Worked at a dealership where he was injured in a car accident. -Underwent training at Ferris for heavy equipment management. -Transferred to Western Michigan University to finish Bachelor of Science degree. -While in Fort Hood he married and had a family. -Divorced in 72/73. -Entered a second marriage. -Worked as an auditor for Speedway. �-Went into automotive management. (01:40:00) -Often changed jobs, got bored and required something new. -Went to massage school. -Positive aspects of service in the military: -Met some good people. -Traveled the world. -Helped to give him a broader view of the world and events. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RosencransL1901V Title A name given to the resource Rosencrans, Larry Michael (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-24 Description An account of the resource Larry Rosencrans was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1948. After high school he was drafted in 1967 and his basic training took place at Fort Knox, Kentucky. At Fort Polk, Louisiana he underwent his AIT training before being sent to Vietnam in 1969. Near Pleiku Vietnam at Camp Enari he underwent more training, and then he was assigned to the 4th Infantry Division. In the jungles Larry would participate in a number of missions until 1969 when he left Vietnam. From 1970-1972 his mechanical repair skills came in handy in Fort Hood, Texas where he worked as a heavy duty mechanic, then later as a motor pool clerk. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosencrans, Larry Michael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc0dec85ee9eebe599644238041d4199.pdf fb6d81980af0fcb11e05ab49b475ec15 PDF Text Text Reagan and Shultz have made a hero of Arafat By AM. Rosenthal New York Times News Service NEW YORK - It is just beginning. The pressure will now increase for Israel to risk its very existence. The purpose will be to force Israelis to agree to the creation of a new country that would have a deep political, religious and national drive to expand over the years into all of Israel. Few countries have been asked to do that - risk nationhood by carving out a piece of territory and handing it to an enemy without a fight. Czechoslovakia was pressured into doing that in 1938. To this day it has not regained its freedom. Not many nations return from the graveyard of surrender. The Reagan administration prepared the way for the pressure to come by its stunning turnaround on the Palestine Liberation Organization. Only a few weeks ago, Secretary of State George Shultz denounced Vasser Arafat as a terrorist not even fit to visit this country for a speech to the United Nations. Suddenly Shultz anointed the PLO as a negotiating partner, after 13 years of American refusal to do so, making Arafat a victorious international hero. The decision to legitimize Arafat came after he read aloud an American-prepared statement that differed little from what he had said before about recognizing Israel and denouncing terrorism. No further price was asked of Arafat. Like renouncing the death-to-Israel convenant, as Bush himself demanded in September. Or proving over a decent amount of time that he had actually given up terror- ism. Or, most important, acknowledging the right of a Jewish homeland to exist in the Middle East, not simply the fact that it was there. The frantic haste with which Shultz accepted the parroted words of Arafat and ordered PLO-U.S. negotiations to start was perhaps understandable. He did not have many weeks left to carve out a niche in history. He certainly did that; his name and Arafat's will now always be connected. Just as astonishing was the speed and gentleness with which leaders of American Jewish organizations announced that despite misgivings about what he was doing they trusted Shultz. Privately, the reason they give has little to do with trust of Shultz - which will not be of paramount importance after Jan. 20. It is that they assume President-elect Bush is delighted not to face the PLO decision himself, and they are in no huny to take him on. Let's clear away some of the camouflage thrown up around the decision. The State Department says Arafat fulfilled American conditions for dealing with him - recognition of Israel's existence and renouncing terrorism. But those conditions were intended to be essential for even considering a U.S.-PLO link and were meant to be tested - not a cooked-up maneuver for instant recognition. The PLO is already warning that its definition of terrorism will not coincide with Washington's or Israel's and says that is just too bad. More nonsense: Opposition to recognition of the PLO means opposition to peace talks between Israeli and Palestinian. Actually, Reagan and Shultz did two things likely to delay peace. They made the PLO the sole Palestinian representative, squeezing out Palestinians on the West Bank with whom Israelis might have dealt. And psychologically they have made the concept of another Palestinian state acceptable before talks even start. Until Arafat proclaimed the Palestinian state, the form of government of any territory given up by the Israelis was assumed to be one of the things that negotiations were supposed to be all about. Should there be another Palestinian state? Or should any territory given up by the Israelis be governed otherwise - perhaps by West Bank Palestinians as part of a union with Jordan, a largely Palestinian state itself? Will the men who run the PLO and have been fighting all their adult lives for the destruction of Israel be satisfied with a sliver of a state? Will Arafat be content to be mayor of Bethlehem? No speculation is needed. A Kuwaiti newspaper reported that after the American recognition, Abu Iyad, Arafat's deputy, said that establishment of a Palestinian state on part of Palestinian land would be a stage toward a Palestinian state on all of it. The only question at a "peace conference" now would be how much the PLO gets, how fast. Then, how long before Israel became a vulnerable sliver 10 years, 20? Israel will not commit suicide. It is reasonable to hope that the new president of the United States will decide that it is immoral for one country to suggest that any other nation do so. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_NWS_Reagan-Shcultz-Arafat Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosenthal, A.M. Title A name given to the resource Reagan and Shultz have made a hero of Arafat Description An account of the resource Newspaper clipping about U.S. denunciation of Yasir Arafat. Subject The topic of the resource United States -- Foreign relations -- 20th century Arafat, Yasir, 1929-2004 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d1192d8dfceb69b8236926e873e1a46.mp4 46fcc7987e4b79b924cbcc1dc82a9504 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/48df6d4a0f2ad8851d6d47adaeb3b051.pdf dcd34ee67162417a3e427524aeeb0497 PDF Text Text Rosin, Jim Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Jim Rosin Length of Interview: (02:22:01) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Jim Rosin of Wyoming, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Jim start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born?” Okay, I was born in 1947, September, in Bay City, Michigan. And lived there all my adolescent, adolescent life. And went to high school at Bay City Central High School, graduated in 1965. And, in the summer of 1966 I went to work for a company in Saginaw, Michigan that sold bakery equipment. And then in the summer of 1966 I was asked to come down to Detroit for the physical for the military, for the draft. So, went down to Detroit, had the physical, came back, got the notice I was qualified for military service. Didn’t know when, at that time, Vietnam in 1966, early 66’, Vietnam was starting to ramp up. And there was a lot of publicity, but I don’t think there was the animosity towards Vietnam at that point. You know? So. Interviewer: “To back up a little bit, when you did the physical, how serious a physical was it?” Oh it was, it was serious. Yeah, they stripped you right down and took x-rays and did the whole work. I had appendicitis earlier that year and I had the scar on my abdomen and they were quite curious about that, what that was, you know. And all that, so. But again I was, I was cleared physically to be able to do that, so. (2:33). Interviewer: “Because I guess later on a lot of the descriptions are more cursory. They just, you know, “can you breathe?” Yes. Okay. But at that point they did not need the huge numbers that they would need. Even late in 66’ there was a huge–- very large draft out of Michigan. But you were doing your physical a little bit ahead of all of that. So, at the point when you’re actually called for the physical you don’t actually know whether or not you’re going to be drafted at all. This is just part of the system.” �Yes, correct. I was a part of a system and they didn’t have the numbers then–– the draft numbers then or anything like that. You were considered, I guess I was considered 1A, or something like that. So, which was fine. So I went through the summer, and waiting for the letter to come. And it finally came, I believe, the end of August of 1966 that I was to report for transfer. And going into the army in October 20, 1966. Interviewer: “So where do you report first?” I reported to the courthouse in Bay City, first, and they checked us off and then they loaded us on a bus, and took us down to Detroit again. The same place we had the physical–– Interviewer: “Through Fort Wayne?” And–– yeah at Fort Wayne. I couldn’t think of the name of it but that’s it, you know? And it was a really, kind of, a dilapidated place at that point. Interviewer: “It is” It was very rundown. And in fact, when we went down for the physical, we had to spend the night. And they put us in this hotel in downtown Detroit that was really nasty–– you know, in 1966. We didn’t even–– in fact, the guys wanted to go out and get a drink and get a beer and all of that stuff. Of course we weren’t of age or anything like that but, but we went–– we stayed in the hotel needless to say. And some guys snuck in some beer for us so we did have a couple beers that night, but, but yeah it was, it was an interesting start. And then–– go ahead. Interviewer: “I guess I was wondering, you know, you were, did you just accept the fact that at some point you were going to be in the service? You weren’t looking for ways to get out of it or––” No I, I had, I had, I did have some back issues when I was in high school. I had a infection in my lower lumbar vertebrae. But, they took x-rays and they said that’s all cleared up. You know, you’re not, you’re good to go. So, I said okay fine. I, you know, of course you’re a little hesitant about it but uh–– Interviewer: “And did you know anything about Vietnam before you went in?” Yeah we just thought–– we knew what we heard on the news and I didn’t study it, you know? We knew what we saw on TV and some of the fighting going on over there and some of the reasons we were there, you know? The reasons we were building up over there. (5:40). �Interviewer: “And what were those reasons at that point?” Well, it was just they think, I think they thought they would go in there and just take over. Clear ‘em out. But, it was a lot stronger force, you know, the NVA, the North Vietnamese Army, the Vietcong, and the, the influx of the Chinese weapons from China––from the communist China into Vietnam. You know, artillery, infa- artillery––smaller arms––and all that type of thing. So it was, it was interesting because, you know, there was no, when we got on the bus and we went down to Detroit, there was no dissension among the guys. You know they were all saying we got to go and do our best and hopefully we’ll get home, you know, in, in one piece. Interviewer: “Did you see yourself as going off to fight communism or just to because Uncle Sam was sending you?” Yeah in a way we did. We, we saw that communism was taking over in that part of the world and if we could nip that in the bud and help them, you know, that would be, that would be great. Interviewer: “Okay, so we’ve got you on the bus heading on down. Where are you going? I guess you got to Fort–– that was on the way to Fort Wayne.” Yeah well that’s when we, when we, where we took our oath. And that’s, that was an interesting, the way they did that. Have you heard of how they did that? Interviewer: “Go ahead.” They, they lined us up. We had to be in a straight line and then we took our oath, raised our hand, and took our oath as a service man for the, for the army. And then they said, after we had our oath, they said lower your hands, take one step forward. So, as a line we all took one step forward and then we were then in the military. We were then in the army. So–– Interviewer: “And now that you’re in, what did they do with you?” (7:43). Well, now that we were in, that evening they loaded us on a train, and in Detroit, and again the train itself was sleeper cars because we had to spend the night and it was pretty dilapidated as well. And it was noisy, and they gave us, I think, the last couple cars on the train–– the overnight cars. So we slept, or tried to sleep on the, on the train going down to Lexington, Kentucky, where our destination was for, eventually to go to Fort Knox. So the morning we got up, they said everybody shave and get ready to, get ready to get off the train and in Fort Knox. Oh, we did stop in Cincinnati. They brought some food on board and we stopped at the big train station in, in downtown Cincinnati. And it’s a big round building, I don’t know if it’s still–– I think it’s still there–– but I don’t think it’s a train station anymore. But it was interesting, the tracks were not in �good shape and the bathroom we had was kind of like a single stall. It had a metal floor in the bathroom, so you fill the sink–– when you’re going on a straightaway down the tracks–– you fill the sink with soapy water so you could get washed down a little bit and as soon as the train hit a curve all that water splashed out of the sink, onto that metal floor, and it was like an ice skating rink in there. And they were, guys were laughing and falling all over the place, and you know nobody got hurt but it was, it was kind of hilarious really. I mean it was you know, unbelievable. So then we, they offloaded us the next day in Fort Knox–– or in Louisville. (9:48). Interviewer: “Yeah, Louisville.” So then we got on buses again and they took us from there to Fort Knox. Interviewer: “Okay, was it Louisville or Lexington?” Lexington, sorry. Yeah, Lexington. Yeah it was Lexington. Interviewer: “Yeah okay, the bus was bussed to Fort Knox and what kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox?” Well, I can’t really remember. I remember we were getting off, we had to line up and there were a few gawkers there looking at us, you know? Laughing at us. You know, “here comes another group.” You know, that kind of a thing. But they were having such a build up at Fort Knox at that time the first thing they told us, they said, “you probably won’t be staying here long.” They said “Well where are we gonna go? This is where they have basic training.” “No, they got other plans for some of you.” So, we went, had something to eat. Then, they issued us our clothing. We had the long lines to issue us our clothing including our underwear and our fatigues, and all of our boots. Two pairs of black leather boots and the whole works. And then, we went and slept in a barracks for one night and then the next morning they took us out and they lined us up again, in three lines. And these were a lot of my friends–– we were still as a group–– a lot of my friends from Bay City, kids I went to school with, kids I knew, guys I knew, were with us. You know, I was thinking “Oh this is going to be pretty cool, we’re going to be going through basic training together” and all that kind of thing. Well, the army had other plans. And I kind of think they maybe did it on purpose a little bit. So, anyway, they lined us up and they, they count off “One, two, three.” So we start on the front line “One two three, one two three, one two three, one two three.” Second line the same thing, third line same thing. So, we were essentially breaking us down into–– with–– to thirds. So they said, “number one is staying here at Fort Knox for basic training, number two is going to Fort Carson in Colorado for basic training, which was a pretty nice place to go. And number three was going to Fort Hood, Texas for basic training. Well, I was number three. So you know, I had a couple friends that went with me down to Fort Hood, but I think we spent a day or two in or Fort Knox. Just getting indoctrinated and told what was going �to happen and what we were going to be doing. And then they took us to the airport, excuse me, and they flew us to Dallas. Texas. And from there, we took buses down to Fort Hood. So, again, it’s all kind of a blur right now. (13:08). . Interviewer: “Right” It’s been a few years ago. Interviewer: “Okay, and so where in Texas is Fort Hood?” Killeen. The city is Killeen. It’s not too far from Waco. Kind of–– Interviewer: “It was west Texas?” Southern central of the you know, south of Dallas, central Texas. Right off of one of the main highways so Fort Hood at that time was the headquarters of the First Armored Division, the First A.D. And so, they brought us in, we went into our barracks, we unpacked, they gave us foot lockers and bunks, and the first thing they did was, told us, showing us how to make our bed and they would be inspecting that bed every morning to make sure it was done right, and the blankets were tight enough that you could bounce a quarter on. You know, and all that stuff. So we had, one thing I remember I was smoking cigarettes at that point, and one thing I remember is the butt cans. What we had on the posts in the barracks filled, half-filled with water, that’s where you threw your cigarettes in when you were done smoking them, so. But, yeah I never thought about cigarette smoke at that point in time, everybody smoked. Interviewer: “Yeah, it was a little bit before the surgeon general’s report came out on that.” That was an interesting time. We––they would–– we were issued M14 rifles, the old M14s that had been around forever. We were instructed on how to take them apart and clean them and we were, we were timed. Once when they were apart we were timed on how quickly we could get them back together again and if you didn’t do it in a certain time, you did it until you, you got a certain time done. Interviewer: “Now did you have any experience with guns before you got there?” Yeah I–– my, my–– our family was, were hunters and my brother would take my deer hunting and that type of thing so I was, I was familiar with rifles. I would go pheasant hunting so I was familiar with shotguns, you know, but not to the degree that we did there. And you had a choice: you could, you could qualify with the rifle, the M14, or you could qualify with a .45 pistol, the 1911 pistol. So, we were issued pistols in case we wanted to qualify with that but these pistols–– �you know, I didn’t know anything about pistols–– but I could tell these pistols were well used and a lot of of the guys, me included, you could, you could stand five meters, 15 feet from a target and never hit it with these .45s. So we thought “no I don’t think we want to, want to qualify with a .45. So, later on when I became a medic, the medics could carry the .45 if they wanted to, but I carried the M16 so, but anyway. (16:53). Interviewer: “All right. Now one of the standard things about basic training is the assumption that you get yelled at and treated rather badly. Did that happen with you?” Oh yeah, very much so, very much so. They would–– we had one guy that was, unfortunate for him, I think they let him go after. But he was a bedwetter and they went, they got on him big time, you know? And it wasn’t his fault I think it was a medical–– it was a medical condition, you know. “How did you get this far?” and all this stuff, you know. They, they railed on him big time and all of a sudden he was gone. I think they–– they took him–– they took him out of the service. But–– Interviewer: “Did they get physically abusive or just yell at you and make you do weird jobs?” Well they would–– the only physical abuse we got was if they didn’t like what you were doing, you had to drop and give them 10 or 20 push-ups. You know, that was the physical abuse. There was no, there was no hitting, there was no. None of that stuff but it was intimidating enough and you know, if it was–– the infraction–– was serious enough rules wise, you know, you had to do 50 push-ups, you know, so. We––PT–– physical training on the field was, was interesting. We had a, a PT instructor that stood on a platform and we all lined up out there and we did PT every day. At, at Fort Hood, it was out in kind of the boonies a little bit. And there was an artillery battery there as well, and we would–– we would go out in the field and two fields over they would be shooting live artillery, you know. So that was–– that was interesting, you know. Big howitzers were firing and so we went out on many bivouacs overnight and the last bivouac–– I think basic training was eight weeks, I believe. (19:06). Interviewer: “Yeah, that was standard at that point.” Yeah, eight weeks. Well the first few weeks we–– they–– of course they cut your hair off, you know, which is not a big deal. And you had to get used too, in the barracks, there were no part–– stall–– partitions. You had to get used to sitting, you know, with everybody around you. You know, and the same thing with the showers, were wide open. So, you got used to that but the––I lost my train of thought. Anyway, we, we would go out on, on these bivouacs, you know. We would march out and the final bivouac was, I think it was a five mile march out with packs and rifles. Marching and running part of the time and then you would spend the night, two �nights, or three nights in the field. You would do more–– you would do more things in the field. More training and then you would come back. The night bef–– I was having some tooth problems. I had a molar that was bad, so the night before we went on this big march, they got me into the dentist and that’s an interesting experience too, for military dentists. They got me into the dentist chair and I had to have the tooth extracted, the molar. And apparently I had an unusual tooth that had two straight roots and one that was on a, on a curve. You know, so they numb me up as best they could and they got in there–– and with pliers–– and they started pulling and it went snap. It snapped. One of the roots broke off. And the dentist said “uh-oh” and I was, I was gone. I never fainted in my life but I was gone. So next thing I know they’re smelling salts under my nose and I’m, I’m waking up and they say “well we got the––we got the–– root out, you know, while you were sleeping. I say “Okay, that’s good” and they sewed me up and then they said ``Well you can’t, you can’t march tomorrow.” So I was lucky, I was–– I was taken out by, by truck to where the other guys were and of course they gave me a hard time. And then that night we had–– they just had issued us brand new beautiful olive drab colored sleeping bags, down filled, first class stuff all the way–– and I woke up that next morning and that whole top of that sleeping bag was blood. The tooth had–– the tooth had things. There’s a–– I just flip it over and do it the other–– go, go from the other side. So anyway, I cleaned it up as best I could but we did go home. Was in basic training for, I guess, maybe six weeks. Christmas came. And our hair was starting to grow out, they said “you’re gonna, you could go home on leave for, for a week and Christmas.” Our hair was starting to grow out, we thought “oh this would be good” you know? So, the night before we were to go on leave the Sergeant said “got a surprise for you guys, we’re taking you all to the barber tomorrow.” So that morning we had to get shaved again. Our whole head got shaved again. So, so needless to say, I wore a hat for two weeks when I was home on leave for Christmas. But then we had to go back to Fort Hood. And then finish our, finish our basic training, you know, in Fort Hood, so. (23:16). Interviewer: “Okay, so then once you get to the end of that, then what happens to you? Okay, well–– yeah, you, you–– during all this period there is an aptitude test that they, they gave you a couple times and they scored you a certain, a certain aptitude. And I guess I scored maybe a high enough aptitude that I qualified to be a medic. Medical training. Some were qualified for the mechanics, some were qualified for just straight leg infantry, you know, and that type of thing. So I think I was chosen, or not chosen, but I was told I could go on AIT, advanced individual training, down to Fort Sam, Houston and San Antonio. So, as a, to be a medical corpsman down in San Antonio. Interviewer: “Did you have the option to say no and just be in the infantry?” No. No, I thought this was a good deal. You know, in fact, my brother was older than I was with 10 years, and he was in the army, and he went to Korea but the war wasn’t on–– �Interviewer: “Right.” ––in the late 50s. He was in Korea and they made him a medic as well. So, he was, he was a medic as well in Korea for a year and my sister, again she’s older than I am but she’s an RN. She was never in the military but she was a registered nurse so it was kind of, you know, unusual that all of us in the family–– all the siblings in the family–– would become, would be going in the, in the medical area. So Fort Sam was, was a great place. It was ten weeks of training, we had an upscale barracks that we, we stayed in and they even had a swimming pool there you could go to. We didn’t go to there right away but it was interesting because the, the, the WAVES the women air, the woman air force or the women, whatever it was, the women army, whatever–– Interviewer: “Yeah.” ––Army corps, they had their basic training at Fort Sam and we would be, you know, we would be marching out there or doing, going to our classes and stuff like that and there would be, you know, these women marching by. They would be going through their routines and all that stuff and it was, you know, we, we of course gave them a hard time from the sidelines but, you know, so it was pretty intense training down there at, at Fort Sam and we even went to a point where we had movies of, you know, taking care of patients and stuff like that and we had a, a movie on baby delivery–– delivering a baby. It was probably, you know, a half an hour film on delivering a baby. What to look for and what not to look for, so. Little did I know that would come and–– come and help later on. But, anyway, we were there and after–– I think it was after five weeks of the ten weeks–– we could then go out to the surrounding area and leave the compound. Leave the base. It was an open base, it was a beautiful Fort and they had a polo field in the middle and at one end was the Brooke Army Hospital, which was the burn center for the military. That wasn’t very pleasant to visit there, but I can–– you can–– you never get that smell out of your nostrils when you went into that hospital. And we had to go in there and look at some of the burn patients and like I said, you never get that, that odor out of your nostrils. I can almost still smell it today, you know, of those poor guys that–– but it was good training that was–– (27:34). Interviewer: “How much of it was geared towards specifically combat stuff?” Well, a lot of it was–– not, not very much–– emergency stuff, you know, but most of it was geared to hospital care, you know, taking care of patients in the bed. You know, how do you change when they have a patient in the bed, you know, how do you put a catheter in? You know, how do you, how do you do, how do you take blood, how do you give shots, you know, and that kind of stuff. That was the majority of the training was and there was a lot of lectures and a lot of testing. You know, they would give you a lecture and then two days later, you would better take notes because there would be a test, you know? In fact, I still have those documents. I got them �out yesterday and I was looking at them, I think “did I write all this stuff?” Unbelievable. So, yeah it was good. It was good training. We knew we were–– a bunch of us knew we were going back to Fort Hood after the medical training and had a nice graduation ceremony down there. We all got our certificates and, but again, like you say, it was geared towards hospital training, not necessarily emergency training that we, that we went too, so. Interviewer: “Okay, so then after the ten weeks, so you go back then to Fort Hood––” Fort Hood. (29:16). Interviewer: “–– and do you get assigned to a unit at that point?” Yep. We went to the first of the 46th Infantry. It was a mechanized, it was a mechanized Infantry Division. Interviewer: “That would’ve been a battalion.” Or a battalion, yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “Because you’re a part of the First Armored Division at that point.” Yes and then–– I wasn’t there very long and we were changed to the 198th Infantry Brigade. So they told us, you know, any, any training we did then after, after AIT at Fort Hood. We were in these APCs, the All Armored Personnel Carriers, they took us out and we’d chase cows more than anything else out there in the fields, you know, we had a good time with that, so. But, anyway, yeah that was–– then they said “no you’re going to be–– you’re going to be straight leg infantry and you’re going to Vietnam.” This was in probably May or June of 1966 they said. Everyone wanted to know “when, when, when are we going.” Interviewer: “We’re in ‘67 now.” ‘67 yeah. “When are we going” and they said “well probably in the fall you’ll be deployed to, to, to Vietnam.” So, okay, so we did training and the bunch of us medics, there in the aid station, we had to give vaccinations and shots and they used the gun, the air–– air supplied gun, you know for figuring the shots, there were no needles. First time I got in line to do that, the medics were inside the aid station. They had an open window and on, on the window they had boxes of empty insulin, you know, containers and they would sit there in the aid station and they’d shoot these, these injection guns and they’d shoot these boxes off the sill in the aid station, and of course everybody turned white, you know, and you had to be sure–– we, we, we were instructed and told and trained how to do that–– you had to be sure, you had, they kept their shoulder still, you �know it was all shoulder no rear-end stuff. And a couple guys didn’t, they went like that, and it ripped them open and they had to get sewn up, you know. It was that, you know, that pressure that, that air pressure was strong enough that it ripped them right open. So, so we did that then we said “well––” they said “some of you medics we’d like you to, to get further emergency training.” We said, “Yeah, that’s probably a good idea.” You know, so they had Darnall Army Hospital on, on the base at Fort Hood, and so they said “we’ll, we’ll get you in the rotation and you’ll go into the emergency room at Darnall five days a week, twelve hour shifts.” Mostly the graveyard shifts, six a.m. till six p.m. or six p.m.–– Interviewer: “P.m. to a.m.” –– six p.m. to six a.m., overnight, and that was, that was very, very enlightening and we learned a lot. (32:55). Interviewer: “Now was it–– did they have a lot of business?” Yes they did and they–– was mostly guys were being foolish, of course, they were. One guy, I remember, once came in, he was driving his motorcycle, got on [33:11] asphalted road. He flipped his motorcycle on a freshly asphalted road and rolled into that asphalt and he, he had that stuff–– he was screaming–– he had that stuff embedded in his skin. He was in shorts and his legs and all that and the doctor came in, looked at me, says “clean him up.” I said “what,” he said “clean him up, scrub him up, get him ready to go, get him ready to go to surgery.” I said, I said “well okay” so I started to try to scrub this guy, you know, his arms and stuff and he was screaming so loud. They finally, they finally came in and they had to put him out to get this embedded asphalt out of his, out of his skin. So that was–– there was also one night–– there were also dependents on the base, wives and kids of these people that were assigned to Fort Hood–– and one night this, they brought this little boy in, the guy brought him in his arms, and he was blue, you know. I said, you know, “what happened?” Well he had, was blowing up a balloon and the balloon burst and part of it went down his throat. So, you know, we were able to get his mouth open and we just saw a piece of his, of the balloon in his, in his throat–– Interviewer: “Right.” –– and we reached in and pulled that out and it was–– it was amazing that as soon as we got that out his color came back, you know, he started crying, but it, but it was interesting. Then, another time they were doing parachute jumps and we always had to go out–– they took the, the, the ambulance from the hospital always went out to the field where they were landing and so we went out with them, working in the–– in fact that morning, I think was early morning jumps so we, we went out at 6 o’clock in the morning and one of the guys, unfortunately, his chute didn’t deploy until about–– they said about 20 feet off the ground–– so he landed on his feet but he was �dead. You know, so, we had to pick him up and take him back and that was, that was horrific, that was really bad. So, you know, and–– and then they made us watch autopsies. We had one in particular was a, was a woman they brought in and she was mustard yellow–– young woman had cirrhosis of the liver, she died and when they opened her up all her internal organs were the color of French’s Mustard, you know, so. A couple guys got a little woozy, you know, in there watching this, watching when they went through the process but again it was–– it was good experience, you know, looking back on it. It was good experience for what we were going to get into–– in a, in a few months, so. (36:46). Interviewer: “Alright, and so how long then did you spend at Fort Hood once you were there as a medic?” I was–– well at Fort Hood I was there after AIT, which was probably in May of ‘67 until, till, October of ‘68. Interviewer: “Alright, well ‘67 still.” Still ‘67 yeah, sorry. Interviewer: “Okay, alright––” Through the summer. Through the hot summer in Texas. Interviewer: “And at this point now do you get orders for Vietnam?” (37:21). Yeah, at that point in time they said we’re going to–– you know, normally people were getting orders to Vietnam as individuals. They said “we’re going to take you over as a unit, as the 1st of the 46th Infantry, 198th Infantry Brigade, as a unit” and we said “well how does that work?” So, they said “well we’re working out the details right now, go home for a couple weeks.” So we went back home, this was probably in August of ‘67. We went home and then came back to the Fort Hood and they had made up their mind what they were going to do at that point. Interviewer: “Now, what was it like to be back home there? You know you’re going to go to Vietnam. It’s now the summer of ‘67 and things have heated up some more, I mean.” Yeah. We were–– we spent a lot of time watching, watching the news. And then the protests, were already starting at that point, you know, and in fact we had to wear–– in order to get a military discount on the, on the airlines, we had to wear our uniforms, so we were a little bit hesitant at that point in time, September of ‘67, or August, of wearing our uniforms to the airport. You know, thinking that we may have, we may have problems. But, it really wasn’t an �issue. There was only one time, going down to Texas, coming back from Michigan from Bay City. I think we landed in Kansas city and we were kind of like the last ones to board, where they had open seats. So they actually took a couple of us military off the airplane in Kansas City to fill it with a paid passenger. We were a bit upset about that and one of the–– I met, even a man, remember one of the guys from American Airlines gave me his card. He felt so guilty, so bad, he gave me his card. He said “you ever have trouble, you know, in another flight, you give them this card and I guarantee you won’t have any, anymore problems.” So we were concerned that we were going to be–– we’re going to miss our bus, you know, to Fort Hood and we were going to be late, you know. We didn’t want to be late. So, and it, it worked out well. We got, we got, we got back, yeah. It was hard to say goodbye to your parents and, and my girlfriend at that point. So, yeah it was–– it was difficult. It was difficult. (40:15). Interviewer: “Okay. So, but then they figured out how to get you to Vietnam and what method did they use?” Okay, they–– they said “this is going to be a little unusual, we’re going to take you as a brigade. We have two merchant marine ships lined up in Oakland, California and we’re going to ship you over the Pacific by merchant marine ship and it’s going to take about three weeks, we’re going to cross the Pacific for three weeks.” Yep, and of the guys raised their hand, his hand right away he says “does that count as our time overseas?” You know, he was concerned about the 12 month–– the 12 month stay overseas. They said “Oh yeah. As soon as you clear the international day or the international border outside in the Pacific, your time starts, your overseas time starts.” So they–– they loaded us, and we had to get all packed up. We had our big duffel bags and we had our M16s at that point. We had qualified for using our M16s and they packed us up and they took us to the airport, commercial flights, and I think we filled that airplane. And they took us into Oakland Airport in California and Oakland Airport at that point in time, in 1967, was, was kind of like it wasn’t a real busy airport. It wasn’t well known, but they unloaded us off the, off the plane onto the tarmac. We had to wait under the plane to get our duffel bag–– the big, long duffel bag–– and then we had our rifles and they lined us up and they marched us through the terminal. I bet–– I think that everybody thought they were being invaded, you know, the looks that we got of the, at the airport were interesting. Again, they loaded us onto buses sitting in front of the airport and we took a short trip to the harbor in Oakland where they loaded us on two ships and we had–– they already had us, you know, names and, and they checked us off as we, as we boarded the ship and then I think we spent one night on the ship and then they–– we–– shoved off and they had a band playing and, and all that stuff. It was kind of, it was kind of interesting. It was kind of nice, you know, so. It was exciting to go underneath the Golden Gate Bridge, you know, but the sleeping accommodations and the ship was–– like I said it was a merchant marine cruise ship is actually what it was. It was a converted cruise ship. It was called the Upshur, u-p-sh-u-r, the Upshur. USS or the U.S Upshur. So, anyway they had it fitted out for a troop carrier and we were down in the lower, in the lower bilges of the ship and they had us stacked four high �and you had barely enough room to–– I was a lot smaller than I am right now. You know I was probably only 120/130 pounds at that point–– and you had barely enough room to roll over before you bumped into the guy, you know, above you. So, and we had to sleep with our rifles. They didn’t have a safe place to store them. There was no ammunition but you had to sleep in the bunk with your rifle. You know, so we spent three weeks in bed with our rifle so–– (44:23). Interviewer: “It’s a good thing you were small.” Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That’s right and that was, that was–– it was warm down there and a lot of the guys ended up going up on deck to sleep, you know. It was stuffy, smelly, you know, it was all the above. Interviewer: “Okay, now a lot of people–– I’ve talked to a lot of people who shipped out of San Francisco and one of the things that comes into a lot of the stories is once you kind of, you know, get out to sea, you start to hit swells coming in and the sea starts to roll and everybody gets sick.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Did that happen with your guys?” Well, we were–– we were in the infantry battalion and we were the medics. We had a doctor that was that–– doctor… I can’t remember his name now. He was with us. So we set up for sick call every morning. There were 1100, 1100 of us on the ship and we set up for sick call every morning on the ship and we logged in 700 cases of seasickness. What was very–– I mean, the ship–– when we first started out the ship would roll side to side. Port to stern, port to–– Interviewer: “Starboard.” Starboard. Port to starboard, which was–– you know, everybody kind of got used to that. And as the fuel was used up on the ship they told us “it’s now going to be started. It’s now gonna start going bow to stern.” So we had–– once it started going bow to stern–– we had everybody get sick again. You know, the same, the same thing. There were–– on that ship what do you do? You had PT, you know, physical training. You ever try to do a push-up on a ship that’s going up and down? That’s an interesting exercise, and they did give us the, the order of the golden dragon when we crossed the International Date Line. They took–– they had cranes on board and they took a couple guys and strapped them in the cranes and they dipped them in the ocean, you know. That was their initiation to crossing the International Date Line. So, but we played cards, you know, and then in the morning–– I never got, never got seasick, woozy, but never got seasick. Except one morning when we had these tables that had little ridges on them and we had �metal trays and the trays would slide back and forth. And you were eating breakfast and there was a guy scraping trays and there was a port–– there was a hole there in the, in the counter and that would go right out, right out of the ship. Well, he would scrape two trays and then he’d throw up into that hole. He would scrape two trays and then throw up into that hole and that kind of got to me. I finally had to turn around and not watch him, you know, but so we, we stopped and we called it. It was–– the ship was called the USS Upshur–– like I said it was a, it was a cruise ship that they used to run cruises from Miami to Cuba so the interior of the ship, the upper decks, were quite, quite nice. You know, they were–– they were very, very nice, and that’s where the officers stayed, of course, in those bunks and the officers. About halfway over, three quarters of the way over, before we got to Taipei or to Taiwan where we stopped, we ran out of fresh water for showers. Oh man, I don’t know if anybody’s ever taken a shower in salt water, but the soap turns to grease, is what it does. The salt water turns the soap to grease. So you went into the shower and you came out feeling dirtier than when you went in. As a medic, we were very lucky the–– we were complaining to the doctor that was on the ship as an officer–– he says “I’ll sneak you up to the officer’s quarters.” So he snuck us up one at a time and we were able to use their showers which was–– they still had fresh water. So, that was one of the perks I guess of being a medic on that, on that ship. But, we stopped in Taipei and they refueled and then we went from Taipei–– it wasn’t very long after that to Vietnam. You know, so. (49:23). Interviewer: “Okay, and how do you go ashore in Vietnam and where do you land?” Okay, they took us–– they took us off the ship–– I can’t remember, I think it was Da Nang. No it wasn’t, it was Vũng Tàu which was South, quite a way South. And we had to climb down the rope ladders on the outside of the ship and you threw your gear–– they brought our gear to us, you know, they, they’d taken that out of the ship. But they loaded us onto an LST, which is a big, hollow, you know, ship. What is it? Something, whatever tank. A tank–– (50:07). Interviewer: “Landing Ship Tank is the––” Landing Ship Tank, right. The big, big room that was about a hundred, hundred–– seems like it was 100 yards long by, you know, 50 yards wide by ten yards high. And as we were going onto that LST they issued everybody live ammo for the first time, for the M16s. I’m thinking “they’re gonna put all of us in this can and they’re gonna give us some of–– give all of us live ammo. What’s going to happen if somebody lets loose some shells or, you know, fires some shells in this–– in that LST.” But thankfully nothing–– nothing happened. It was hot–– it was early–– late–– September, early October–– in Vietnam. It was still very warm. So we ended up, in the LST, we didn’t sleep inside. We ended up going up on deck and sleeping up on deck, you know. It was hard but it was, it was–– at least it was cooler, cooler so. Interviewer: “So you’re going North along the Vietnamese coast––” �Yes. Interviewer: “–– and how long did that trip take, do you think?” That took–– I think we were on the ship a couple days. It took us, it took us a while to get up there. You know, we had two days and two nights on the ship eating sea rations. They didn’t have, you know, hot meals on board. You know, so we got our first–– we had some sea rations, dehydrated food and stuff when we were in basic training and, and that so. But yeah, it was–– there are no showers, you know. Some bathrooms, but no showers. And so they unloaded us as a unit in Da Nang. We came off the LST, they actually rolled it kind of up on shore like they do the tanks. The doors down and we walked, we walked out as a unit, flags waving and all that stuff, so whatever, you know. Interviewer: “Alright, now were there media there taking pictures?” I think so because I–– there were some pictures that I got from the paper, the newspaper, showing the guys coming ashore, so. Interviewer: “So we’ve now successfully gotten you as far as Da Nang in Vietnam.” Yep. Interviewer: “And at this point what is your initial impression of Vietnam?” We were coming up the coast, it was a very beautiful country. It was green, you know, we could see the Central Highlands at one point, in the background. You know, the mountains and it was a, it was a beautiful country. You know, we couldn’t–– we didn’t see, of course, the interior of the country at that point. The rice paddies and all that stuff, but it was very green and, and a lot of military activity going on as we were coming up the coast. I mean a lot of flights, a lot of airplanes, a lot of helicopters, you know. Didn’t hear much shooting at that point in time but, you know, we came, you know it was–– kind of an interesting tour to begin with, I guess I should say. So yeah. (53:23). Interviewer: “Okay, and then you land at Da Nang and then what happens from there?” Okay, in Da Nang we were offloaded off the LSTs and then they took us on–– I think they weren’t, we didn’t have buses–– I think, we–– they put us in the big trucks. The deuce and a halves with the, with the canvas covers and we were loaded in there with our gear and we went to Chu Lai, which kind of like, was like a holding area. [Chu Lai was a major base south of Da �Nang] Maybe something near the airport there at Chu Lai and we spent a couple nights there. I don’t think they quite knew what they were going to do with all of us and they were still building. There were two hills there. They said “some of you are going to be on Hill 54, some of you are going to be on Hill 69.” Okay, so what does that mean? Well it means that the highest part of that hill was 54 meters high or 69 meters high–– Interviewer: “Right.” –– you know, so. That was fine, so we ended up–– I think they were, the engineers were still building that, that base on Hill 69. Putting the huts up, you know, and doing all that stuff. So we were probably one of the first ones into Hill 69. We had a perimeter, it was a fenced perimeter. We had a–– we had a manned gate, you know, an armored gate–– a guy at the gate. And it was interesting because as you were coming into the, to the hill, there was a little village there, and kind of had been set up there to help the GIs with laundry and you know, all that kind of stuff, so. Which was–– which was fine. You know, we were right off of, I think it was Route One, Highway One in Vietnam and lots, lots of traffic, you know, lots of military. A couple of the guys–– they shouldn’t have done it but they did anyway–– we’d be going–– they’d be going down in a Jeep down Highway One and the Vietnamese had these little three wheeled carts, you know, and they’d come up next to you and they’d push ‘em, you know. And the carts would almost tip over and they’d laugh, you know. They were–– they were just being a typical, typical teenager at that point in time, so. Interviewer: “Now, before you went to Vietnam did you get any kind of information or indoctrination about the place or the people or how to behave?” (56:11). Yeah we had–– we had all those lectures and all those briefings when we were at Fort Hood before we–– before we left. And you know, they–– they told us–– I think they had some ex people that were–– had been there come in and talk to us and told us, you know, what to expect. You know, they didn’t know where we were going to be or what we were gonna do at that point in time. But, if you were going to do this, this is what you–– you’re going to expect. You know, expect that if you’re infantry you’re going to be out in the field. You know, they indicated like 100 percent of the time, you know, which guys were really concerned about that, but, yeah. They gave us, you know, politically what was happening over there, who was in charge politically, and what the communists were–– were planning to do–– that we knew, or tried to know what they were trying to do, and who the leaders were and not that we were in that area, but–– but, you know, it’s–– it was–– they were pretty good about giving us, indoctrinating us, as to what was going on over there, so. Interviewer: “Okay. And did they tell you things about how to treat the civilians or anything like that?” �Oh yeah. Yeah, they–– of course they did. I mean you have a–– you have a military code of conduct, and that’s applies to all servicemen, you know, that to have respect for the people and the civilians and respect for your own servicemen, you know, and–– and that–– and that code of conduct, they kept drilling that into us, you know, and I think it stuck, you know. In fact, it still sticks today, you know, they drilled us–– they drilled that into us, you know, that–– that thoroughly, so. Interviewer: “Okay. Now, you’ve gotten as far as as Chu Lai and that’s a place near the coast, that’s been described to me–– it’s got a very sandy and flat––” Yeah it was sandy and flat. They had a very large–– there was a air force–– there was an air force base there and we had–– there was a very large PX there which had everything in it. It was very, very nice. It’s very, very large. In fact when I was there at Chu Lai at the PX, I bought a movie camera. A Super 8 movie camera and the guys “what are you going to do with that?” I said “I’m going to take some pictures when I can.” You know, so it ended up–– the movie camera I bought, the Kodak Super 8, fit perfectly in an ammo pouch, you know, on my–– on my waist. So I got an extra ammo pouch and I tried to take that, that movie camera, whenever I could, out in the field. I didn’t take it so much during the monsoon season, but yeah, the area was, was, was very nice. I mean, you had the beach, you know, you could go swimming on the sandy beach and the waves were very tough. We did a lot of–– tried to do a lot of body surfing at that point in time. We didn’t have surfboards, we had–– we tried to do body surfing in the salt water, but yeah, it was a, a–– Chu Lai was, was, was quite nice. And you had the backdrop was the Central Highlands behind it, so. (59:52). Interviewer: “Okay. I guess I might have been told like at least in the summer or whatever, it got very hot though, didn’t know, the sand got very hot.” Yeah. Interviewer: “But you’re there because you’re coming in, at least towards the end of–– toward the end of the year, at this point––” Right. Interviewer: “–– so you’re based on, on Hill 69 at this point.” Yep. �Interviewer: “Now are you assigned specifically to a company or are you with battalion headquarters or––” Yeah I was in headquarters. Headquarters company because I was a medic and we had the–– we had the aid station. We had the aid station there so I was in headquarters companies. (1:00:24). Interviewer: “Okay. Now, did you stay in the aid station or would you go out within–– No. Interviewer: “–– the field with, with the line units?” I was with Company E when I went out in the field. That was my assignment and Company E was a mortar battalion and we–– we usually, because the guys carried these 81 millimeter mortars, very heavy. They had one guy carried the base, one guy carried the tube, and a bunch of guys carried the ammo. We were usually the last ones to go into the LZs, so all the other companies went in first–– into an LZ, on a helicopter and, and then they brought the mortar platoon which is us in there, so. We had lot of training with mortars there off of Hill 69–– they had an area where it was uninhabited. We would train for the mortars to go off and the guys used to like–– I used to go up and watch them and they’d always like the medic to, to drop the 81 millimeter mortar in the tube and I think that’s probably that and the LAWS, the Light Anti-Tank Weapon, like a, a small bazooka. I think that’s where I lost my hearing. I’ve, I have two hearing aids, you know, but that’s where I started to lose my, my hearing–– for, for those exercises. Because we never–– you never wore headphones, you never–– you never put earplugs in. I mean we had them, but nobody used them, you know, so, but–– Interviewer: “Okay. Now on Hill 69 did you have–– did you–– were you in tents, were you in kind of cabin things?” Yeah we were in–– yeah in–– on Hill 69 they had an assortment. They had officer’s quarters which were corrugated metal, you know, and wood framed buildings and then we had a church there, down in the gully. And that was again plywood and corrugated metal. And the huts that we stayed in–– the aid station was corrugated roof and wood sides. The huts that we stayed in had screens on the sides. I think they had a metal roof and then a wooden floor, you know, that we stayed in. The huts that we stayed in–– with the bunks that we stayed in, they all had mosquito netting, you know, in the–– so to keep the mosquitoes at bay, so. And then just down from us on the–– at the aid station, up on top of the hill there was the mess hall and the cooks–– the cook’s barracks there, and then we had bunks all over–– all around–– Hill 69, where they–– where guys would go for guard duty. You know, barbed wire and then bunkers, barbed wire, bunkers all the way–– all the way around. �Interviewer: “Sorry, now was this a battalion sized base or company sized or––” (1:03:46). I think it was company sized base. It wasn’t the whole battalion. Interviewer: “So a lot of the time battalion–– the companies would be out in the field. They would maybe rotate in and out.” Yeah. Yep. Interviewer: “Okay. But you went out in the field with companies at different times, yourself?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay. Can you describe your first time going out in the field?” Yeah, we–– the first time they took us out we walked from Hill 69–– would be probably going West towards the Central Highlands–– and they purposely took us, you know, into some very wet areas. Rice paddy areas we had to go through and all that, and that was, you know, that was a very enlightening experience as to what you were going to be going through. And then, before that, as a medic we had to make sure everybody in our, in our company or whatever, they had malaria pills and there was a–– malaria was, was very prevalent over there. And so we had to make sure that they had, had malaria pills. And the first thing you learn over there is: once you go through a rice paddy your boots and your shoes and your socks are wet, you know. What do you do with that? You slog through the day and then you better have a second pair of socks at night. So, you try to rinse ‘em out with water and then the only way to dry them, you know, we– – you stuff ‘em inside your shirt where it’s warm and you sleep and hopefully the next morning your socks are fairly dry but they’re drier than the ones that you, that you took off, so. So, but–– (1:05:43). Interviewer: “Now, when you went through those places would you get leeches too or was that somewhere else?” Yes, very much so. Not–– not so much in the lowlands, the leeches. We had a lot of guys–– a lot of guys were scared to death of leeches, you know, and–– but the lowlands was mostly the rice paddies and you tried to go up on the berms, you know, for the rice paddies and walk along and you go through villages and of course the–– the kids would come up and come up to you and the words they knew was “give me gum.” That’s what they wanted, you know, or “give me candy, give me gum” you know, so. First couple times we didn’t run into any trouble, you know. Not–– �I wasn’t there too long and one night we heard some shooting off the hill, towards the Central Highlands, and my first experience to see illumination rounds overhead, you know. We launched illumination rounds from our hill, out, you know, phosphorus rounds, and it was amazing how, how much that lighted everything up, so. And at that point in time the starlight scopes was just coming into play. The–– a lot of the infantry guys–– they were very expensive at that point, somebody said they were like $4000 a piece for these starlight scopes. But you look through them at night and what it does, it magnifies the starlight or the, you know, the moonlight. And everything has a green cast to it–– a green–– so it’s quite, quite interesting to see, so. Interviewer: “Now, by way of weapon arena is your unit equipped with M16s at this point?” Yeah, we were–– we had M16s. I was equipped with an M16, I could have carried a .45 but I didn’t want to carry a .45, so. How many times I used the M16 to fire–– when we were in firefights? Not very often. I was kind of sitting back waiting if somebody got hurt, you know, so. A couple times I did, you know, you fire into the–– into the jungle–– you don’t know what you’re hitting, you know, but, so. It was–– then we had a–– the automatic machine guns. We had one guy–– was a machine gunner, and what I always was amazed at is these guys' walking point, you know. They were the head of the column, you know, walking point and they rotated, you know, not the same guy all the time but they, they rotated so yeah. They were–– it was something to watch those guys. How careful they were, you know, not only were they stepped, but looking and watching, you know. They had all those people behind them, they were–– they were point. They were–– they were the ones responsible. (1:08:48). Interviewer: “Okay. Now you had mentioned before that you’re assigned, at least initially, to the–– to the mortar company and they wouldn’t be up front but did–– would within each company though did you have your own point?” Yeah we had our own. We had our own rifle, we had our own machine gunner and we still walked in the column even though we weren’t, we weren’t the first ones to go through, go down, but we were–– we were there and we were usually in the back and the–– the point guy would give us a, give us a grid or whatever. You know, somebody would give us, give us a grid of where to shoot in. And then later on in the year, we got paired up with an F.O., forward observer, and his radio man–– out of the Hill 54, was the artillery hill. And I got to know those guys very well. In fact, we shared a tent when we were out in the field, three of us. So, they would call in artillery for us, so. Interviewer: “Alright. Okay. Now to kind of go back to the earliest, in the first few months of your tour–– before the Tet Offensive starts in early ‘68–– what were those first few months like?” �Well we were–– we were very apprehensive, you know, we didn’t know what to expect. You know, you thought as soon as you left the hill that you would be shot at, you would be, you know, you would be–– they had mortars too, you would be mortared or whatever. But it was very rare at the first couple months, off the hill, but then when we started–– maybe we were there a month after we’d done a couple, a couple walking patrols through villages and stuff like that. Search, searching and clearing the villages, making sure there were no weapons in there and, and all of that. People weren’t real happy with us coming into their huts, you know. And, you know, we did some–– they knew we were a medic, you know? They–– we did some civic action there as a medic to try to help some local people. You know, try to get on their side, try to show them that we’re here to help them, not to–– not to hurt them, as far as the villagers were concerned, but you never–– you never knew. They were concealed very well, the VC–– the Viet Cong were, were very well concealed and you were, you were very skeptical about any, any young man there. That was he a VC or was he just a, you know, was he just a regular villager, you know. You didn’t. You didn’t. Or a farmer. You didn’t know, so. Interviewer: “Alright, now you initially were walking out, but then you would start to go out and combat starts, you go out in helicopters.” (1:11:54). Right. Right. They–– once, I think once they figured we were used to what the thing was like out there, what the situation was like, they started bringing helicopters in and we had to go out on combat assaults. I think I counted 13 combat assaults that I went out on and most of the LZs, the landing zones, that we were into were hot LZs. That meaning they were shooting, there was some–– that’s the reason we were there, as we were going out to try to, try to, try to take care of that. And we would go in with the helicopters, with the hueys, and the door gunners will be firing the whole time until we got well off, well off the hueys into cover. So, then we would go–– usually landed in like a rice paddy or something like that, some place where they could get the helicopter in. Then you went into the jungle from, from there, so. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right, and now as the medic how–– how much of a pack did you carry?” I carried my, my–– it was probably about all my bandages and all the stuff I carried. It was probably a package of about, you know, maybe 16 inches long by 12 inches high by 12 inches wide, and pretty heavy. Plus you had your normal pack on your back, and it was the whole thing–– somebody said the whole thing weighed about 70 pounds. So you, with your rucksack and all your gear and your water bottles and your ammunition and the medic stuff. So they said “You can–– as a medic you can wear a red cross armband on your arm, if you want in the field.” And he said “No, that’s just a target,” and we figured that was just a target for, for the for the enemy. And, so I also carried–– as a medic I carried morphine and we had to, we were drilled in into our head that we had to guard that morphine, keep it on our bodies at all times because guys will be guys and they will try to get high, you know, with morphine. So that’s the other, the �other, the other area of Vietnam which is marijuana. Marijuana was very prevalent over there. You could go into a village and they would be sitting outside their huts and they would be selling marijuana. And you could buy a pound of marijuana for $16. And–– which the guys were pretty good about not smoking that when they were out on patrol or out in the field, but going back to base camp, you know, it was a different–– it was a different story. You walk around the base camp at night and you can smell it big time. What happened later on in the tour the–– the VC, the Viet Cong, started lacing the marijuana with heroin. And they wanted to get the guys addicted, and then they pretty much–– the army pretty much shut all that down. I mean if you smoked marijuana it was–– it was almost a crime, you know, it was a felony. So, yeah, so that was–– that was interesting stuff. Interviewer: “Did that policy have any effect?” It did. Yeah. It stopped–– it stopped probably 70 percent of it, you know, but there’s still guys that still wanted to–– wanted to do that. I tried it, you know, we all tried it, you know, and it didn’t–– it didn’t do anything for me. So I’d still rather have a can of beer, you know. (1:16:19). Interviewer: “All right. Now how long was it before you had any combat casualties to treat?” Initially, one of the–– probably within the first month we were on patrol and we were walking a single column along a hedgerow and the, the sergeant told us “Walk down the edge of the hedgerow, come around, and come back up the other side.” So the guys are looking at that, you know, some of the guys go, “We’re not going to walk that extra block down to the edge of the hedgerow, so let's cut through the hedgerow right here. That looks like there’s an opening.” And yeah, they had booby-trapped and–– or they had put booby-traps, explosive booby-traps, or they would put false ground with holes with, with punji sticks. I don’t know if you know what a punji stick is. It’s sharp and bamboo dipped in–– dipped in feces, you know, so that would cut through the, the combat boots over there. Were canvas on the sides, they had steel toe, steel bottoms, but they were canvas on the sides. But the punji sticks were designed to go into the upper ankle and lower leg, you know, and so that was–– once they got into that–– they weren’t necessarily–– we lost a couple that were blown up when they, they tried to cut across these, these hedgerows. And then you had to bring medevacs in, then you had to surround the area to make sure that the medevacs wouldn’t get shot at. But yeah, we had–– we had a few–– had a few guys like that. So, we lost–– I think as far as a battalion goes, we had 25 medics that went over there. Five of us came back unhurt. The other–– there was a few, there was a few killed over there killed in action and then there was, a lot of them were wounded. Some of them–– some of them got sick, they mean Dysentery and, and that type of thing over there was very prevalent. You know, there was no sanitation. On Hill 69, I could go back a little bit. �Interviewer: “Yeah.” Visualize no bathrooms on Hill 69. Outhouses and urinals were–– were round rocket tubes they had taken off the, the helicopters, buried in the ground and so that was your urinal. And the outhouses were outhouses, and no plumbing. So, what we had to do was, we had to set up. We took 55 gallon drums, put ‘em in the outhouses and that’s where you went into. You sat down, you went into a 55 gallon drum. What do you do with that? There’s no plumbing, so every day or two we would pull those drums out and the medics were in charge of seeing that this was done properly. We would pull those 55 gallon drums out from behind the–– from behind the outhouse, throw kerosene in there, and then newspaper and light it and burn the stuff until it was ashes. Then you’d move ‘em back in and then you’d start again and so–– (1:20:04). Interviewer: “You have a sense of smell left after that?” Yeah well you, you tried to stay down, you know, down wind or away from the wind blowing and that stuff. But what happened was during the monsoon season, which was winter months, those things filled up with water and they wouldn’t burn. So then you had to bury the stuff. You had to go out there with shovels and try to bury the stuff and it was not–– that was probably–– the guy said that was probably the worst duty that they could ever have, you know, was taking care of the crap, you know. Interviewer: “Did you let any of the Vietnamese onto the base or they have to stay outside?” Yeah, no they had some workers there in the–– in the mess halls and that type of thing, so. Serving–– serving, you know, meals and all that kind of stuff, so. Yeah there was–– yeah and they were vetted, you know, supposedly they were vetted, you know, before they came in. And, you know, they would line up every morning at the gate. You could see ‘em out there on the gate and they would come in and work. They were paid. You know, they were paid and a couple of ‘em I think worked in the–– a couple of ‘em worked in the motor pool there that we had, you know–– mechanics and stuff like that. So, yeah. (1:21:33). Interviewer: “Okay, alright. Now I think one of the incidents that, that came up and I think was this in December? There was a point where you got to put your obstetric training into use.” Yeah. Interviewer: “When was that?” �Okay. In December we were–– we had gone out on a combat assault quite a ways out on the–– on the foothills of the, of the Central Highlands, near a river. And one morning we were walking along and along the river, it came into a small village and they–– a couple people ran up to us “Mamasang having baby, Mamasang having baby.” I said “Okay.” So they call me “Doc,” they say “Doc go take a look.” What’s going on? So, I go and take a look in the hut and this woman is–– is in labor big time. She was in labor and you know I’m thinking “Oh, why didn’t we carry gloves?” You know, we were concerned about diseases. Why didn’t we carry gloves, you know? So I had–– they have, what’d they call it? The real sharp edged bushes, you know, in the field. And of course you get going through–– pushing through that, you get cut on your fingers. So I’m, I’m standing there going to help this woman, so I’m putting band-aids on my cuts on my fingers so, you know, I–– you know, what do you–– what do you do? So now I’m thinking one thing they told us–– this movie that we saw in fort, Fort Sam–– if you see feet, you know, you’re in trouble. You know, but you know, I got her, got her set. Got her laid down and saw the top of the head, you know, and the–– the guys were all on the outside of the hut and the villagers were all around the hut, watching what was going on and this woman–– she was going through pains, you know, and she never uttered–– never uttered a sound. It was just amazing to me that, that they could hold that in. And then, all of a sudden we were getting fire, sniper fire from across the river. So that scattered everybody and we started–– our guys started shooting back and of course then I had, I had two worries. I had the woman giving birth, then I’m thinking “What happens if somebody gets hurt or wounded in our–– or other villagers get wounded.” (1:24:23). Interviewer: “Yeah.” But fortunately none of that. Nobody got wounded, nobody got hurt from their–– from their sniper fire. We actually ended up bringing–– the baby was born to the sound of artillery shells coming in across the river. You know from our FO, ordered artillery into the, to the where–– that where they thought the VC were but of course they weren’t. Once the shooting stopped they were long gone and so yeah it was–– it was exciting time. Then we had the, the afterbirth of course. And they said, you know–– the Captain came up to me, Captain Wolf says “What are we going to do with her?” I said “Well, we’re going to take her to a hospital,” you know, it’s the only thing we can do. So I said “Is it safe to bring a medevac in at this point?” He said “Yeah we haven’t had any shooting for a while,” so he said “We’ll bring a medevac in.” So they brought–– it was a baby boy, by the way, came out good. And I tied off the umbilical cord like they told me to, and cut it and, you know, they, they took her. The medevac arrived, they put her on a stretcher, and they put her on the helicopter, and they took her into Chu Lai Hospital, you know, to be checked out, so. They were, some of the villagers were a little concerned like, like I said–– you mentioned earlier–– that she wouldn’t be coming back but we tried to–– we usually had an ARVN, Republic of Vietnamese Interpreter, with us so he was able to tell the villagers “No, she’s just going into the hospital. She’s going to be cleaned up and taken care of, make sure she’s alright and then she’ll be–– she’ll be brought out. She’ll be brought back out here.” So, a few �days later I inquired and they–– that’s what they had done. You know, it was a healthy baby boy, you know. Quite an experience. And then after that–– I didn’t realize it at the time–– but our, our Captain put me in for a Bronze Star Award, valorous award, for that exercise, so that experience. (1:26:41). Interviewer: “Alright, now before the Tet Offensive started did your unit get into any largescale firefights?” It was pretty quiet. This–– I think I delivered the baby on the 19th of December, just before Christmas. After that, when we went into base camp, the Bob Hope Show was there and a couple of us were able to go to see Bob Hope and Raquel Welch. That was quite an experience, you know, right before Christmas in Chu Lai. And then after that, through Christmas and the New Year–– our New Year–– it was pretty quiet. It was not much fighting going on. You know, little probably did we know that there was–– this was the time during the big buildup of the ARVN, or the North Vietnamese––the NVA coming down. And so that was through January–– we went on a lot of patrols but there was sporadic firefights and, but nothing–– nothing real, nothing real major, you know, at all. So January 30th was their Tết New Year, their, their New Year. And we went out in the field at the base of the, of the Central Highlands camping overnight. Bivouacking, bivouacking overnight and the guys were on guard duty and that type of thing and all of a sudden we get a report from headquarters that there were a thousand NVA troops within two miles of our location. So, we didn’t go. It was the middle of the night, we didn’t go out after them. We launched as–– as a mortar platoon we launched a lot of illumination rounds to see if we could see any movement out there, but we didn’t. About four o’clock in the morning or so, still dark, all of a sudden we hear “woosh” out of the Central Highlands. The NVA were launching rockets into Chu Lai. Into the air base. They were aiming for the hospital, they were aiming for whatever they could do, so. The next morning we watched these rockets go off from the Central Highlands, you know, maybe halfway up the mountain and it was–– it was a frightening experience. We didn’t know what was–– if these a thousand NVA was in our area or whatever, so. (1:29:34). Interviewer: “Now were you with a company sized unit at that point?” Yeah. Yeah, a company sized unit. So they took us to–– they brought, they brought helicopters and gunships in in the morning. They picked us up and they said “You’re going up in the Central Highlands where the rockets came from.” Okay, so–– so we loaded into the helicopters and they took us up into the Central Highlands. Well the problem was the helicopters could not land on the side of a mountain. So, the NVA had cleared out an area where they had the rockets launched and of course they were–– they were gone. The NVA were gone. They weren’t there anymore. So we, we tried as best we could–– the helicopter pilots tried as best they could, with their propellers, to get us as low as they could onto the side of that mountain. Then we had to jump out �of the helicopter and most of the guys–– a couple sprained ankles–– most of the guys did fine. You know, one guy was sitting–– you can imagine–– he’s sitting on this, on the edge of the helicopter floor and there’s the strut down there and he had his feet on the strut. Instead of standing up and jumping, he just kind of–– he just kind of slithered off the helicopter floor and his rucksack got caught on this, on the strut where the helicopter lands. So, he hung there for a few minutes and then he got free, then he flipped 180 degrees and land on his rucksack, on his back, on the side of the mountain. So I went over to see him and he had the wind knocked out of him but he was okay, thank goodness. He, he didn’t have to–– we didn’t have to evac him out, so. But yeah, we stayed up there. We did patrols from that area for a few days. One time, it had cleared out–– it got pretty quiet for a while right there. One day, we were–– had–– a patrol going out to try to find some fresh water in the streams up there in the mountains. So, one of the guys– – I think it was a radio man or somebody that wasn’t really infantry trained–– wanted to walk point. So, six of us went down this trail and he was walking point and all of a sudden I look up and he’s running back. You know “Let’s get out of here, get out of here.” I said “What’s going on?” He says “I just ran into a column of NVA coming the other way on the trail.” Both point men saw each other, they turned around, and they ran. They ran in both directions. So, when they–– when we got back shaking a little bit, a little scared–– back to the, to the group, they sent a column out to try to look for these NVA on the same trail, but of course nobody found anything, so. So, yeah. Tet Offensive was an interesting time. They, they blew up–– they blew up a bridge in Chu Lai on Highway One and it was funny because later on they brought in a crane to repair that bridge and on the back of that crane was Bay City. You know, that was where I was from in Michigan. The government had purchased from Industrial-Brownhoist that crane and they had shipped it over to Vietnam and they were using that to repair that bridge. But, yeah there was–– it was a very tense, tense time. Lots of firefights, lots of guys–– lots of guys injured, lots of guys hurt, you know. We had–– we had a lot of casualties in our unit, you know, but. I took a note yesterday of a book that I had about how many–– how many injuries they had during, during Tet and this is the U.S. Forces. In the 30 days–– the first 30 days of Tet, okay, that would’ve been the whole month. Probably the month of February 1968, the U.S. killed in action: 2,371, wounded: 11,664. Of those wounded 5,500 will return to duty in, in country and 155 missing in action. The NVA counted 25,000 killed in action, and 16,000 lost weapons. There was no stats on the wounded that they, that they encountered, so, yep. (1:34:49). Interviewer: “Wow. Alright, now somewhere along the line you picked up another Bronze Star?” Yes. Yes. That was–– we went–– after I was in the field for through Tet and after I was in the field for for six months, they’d like to rotate the medics back into the aid station and then send, send new medics or send other medics out and take their place with, with the companies in the fields. So, I was one of the lucky ones. I was rotated back to the aid station and then I believe it �was in June or July of ‘68. The Tet thing had calmed down but the Laos thing had gotten pretty hot. There were lots of stuff going on in Laos, across the border. (1:35:43). Interviewer: “We weren’t doing officially too much there but we were doing–– there was a lot of fighting going on further up in the Highlands, in the hills, and close to the Laos ocean border.” Yeah. We were told, our group–– our battalion–– was told “You’re going to Laos.” “You’re going to–– to–– to deploy to Laos for at least 30 days.” Was like “Oh man.” And that scared the heck out of us, you know. To go into a green site, you know, and they said “You need to have, you know, your weapons, you need to have, you know, food. You need to have medical supplies.” Well, I was in the pharmacy at that point and the government had put out lists of–– of what they required for a battalion moving to a new site. And they–– you had to have bins full of bandages and medicine and, you know, shots and all this stuff that we, that we–– sutures–– and all this stuff that we had to, we had to use over there. And I did an inventory in our pharmacy and we had a quarter of what we needed.So the doctor said “Do you think you can pull this together?” I said, “Well, give me a driver and give me a jeep and I’ll see what I can find.” So I spent three weeks scouring the countryside–– Chu Lai, the hospital, other, other–– other hills. Hill 54, our hill, other, other military bases there. I think I even went to the air force, you know, on the–– on the airport, and was able to pull together, I would say 98 percent of the necessary supplies that we had to take into Laos. So we got that all–– we got that all inspected, got that, you know, all quantified and, so, and then of course, a week later–– two weeks later–– your trips canceled. But what the, the doctor wanted to do–– or what he said, he said “You went over and beyond your duty to–– to pull all this together.” So they gave me a second Bronze Star for meritorious–– for meritorious service. So. (1:38:10). Interviewer: “Alright, so what was your–– what was life like then on the base, now that you’re working at the aid station? What kinds of things were you doing?” Well, we had–– of course you had the little villages down at Chu Lai and the guys would go down there and have a good time and of course they’d come back with a VD. So we had a pretty healthy supply of penicillin on, on hand and then if guys couldn’t take penicillin, they had antibiotics like tetracycline and that type of thing that we used to–– and we had–– the aid station was open for, for cuts and bruises and you know, minor wounds and taking sutures out, and you know, all that kind of thing. So that’s what we did on a day-to-day–– on a day-to-day basis. We inspected–– another silly story but we inspected all–– our job was to inspect all the latrines on Hill 69. There were probably, oh I’m guessing there were probably a dozen or six, six to 12 latrines. And some of the guys that we had on duty for the inspection and cleaning these latrines– – the medics were just overseers, they didn’t, we didn’t actually had to do this. We needed to make sure they burned the stuff and, and all that. And then one time, one of the medics got a �hold of some methyl salicylate. I don’t know if you know what that is. You ever smell wintergreen? Interviewer: “Yeah.” That’s the wintergreen oil and that’s what you put on, you know, swellings and that the heat makes it, makes it heat. Makes it warm and it reduces swelling and all that stuff. Well, one of the medics thought it would be funny if we sprinkled some of that on the officer’s latrine seats, and we got in big time trouble for that. You know, they came, they came right at us, you know, wanted to know who it was. Well of course we didn’t–– we didn’t know who did it and of course whoever did it didn’t–– didn’t volunteer that they did it. So we got a severe reprimand that this would not happen again, you know, so. So, but that was funny. So that was–– that was life on the hill, you know. Interviewer: “Now when the units out in the field took casualties, would they come to your aid station or would they get taken to Chu Lai or something?” We had a–– we had a helip- helicopter pad right there. If they weren’t too serious, you know, injuries–- cuts, and, you know, or you know, whatever–– they would land there, then we would go up, you know, kind of like they see on M.A.S.H. We would go up and, with a Jeep and then bring them back to the aid station, evaluate them, and if they needed to go further from there we would take ‘em by ambulance or by Jeep from there into the Chu Lai hospital, you know, just down the road from us. So, yep. (1:41:20). Interviewer: “Alright, and then you also did some work out in, in the community from there?” Yes. That was–– that was a really good thing that we, that we ended up doing. Later–– later in my tour, probably during the summer and it was hot, it was really hot and we did these MEDCAPs which is Medical Civic Action Programs, where we would go into a village and we would set up a mini aid station. And we would bring in the, the, the people from the village–– the kids–– if they had any ailments, we would try to–– we would give them medication. Most of them came in with, with dental problems. A lot of it self-inflicted dental problems. They would chew a narcotic called Betel Nut and they would chew that–– it turned their gums red, their teeth red, and they would chew that to numb the pain in their mouth from their, from their rotted teeth, you know. Especially the older people, the senior’s. And of course we couldn’t do anything about, about that. We’d give them–– we’d give them aspirin or we’d give ‘em Tylenol or whatever to try to kill the pain, but I think it helped a lot and then one time we were in a village and it was late in the afternoon. We’d gone through the villagers and helped them, you know, with medication and minor injuries and that type of thing, and the–– and the chief of the �village came up to us, and we’d had our interpreter with us. He says “I’d like you to have–– we’d like to give you dinner.” He said, “Okay, he’d like to give us dinner.” So we said, “Yeah we can– – we can do that.” We had our Jeeps, we were–– it was a drivable thing, you know, where we take our supplies–– Interviewer: “Yeah.” –– with us. So we stayed for dinner and the interpreter–– I think he was pulling our chain, maybe he wasn’t, but he said, after the dinner he said “How’d you like the meat?” We said “Oh well it was–– wasn’t too bad.” He said “Well those were some old dogs in the village that they had left over and then they, they decided to cook them up and serve them to you with––” You know, he was kind of smiling a little bit, but I don’t think it was. You know, but they did–– they did eat–that was considered a delicacy over there. That was–– dog was considered a delicacy. (1:44:01). Interviewer: “Alright–” So. Interviewer: “–– and did your system complain about the meal later?” Can’t remember. Yeah, I think it probably did because it was rich food, was highly spiced food, and yeah it was–– we had a couple guys from the southwest on our base camp and they planted a garden, and they planted jalapeno peppers, you know, and all the hot peppers. And so they would eat that to spice up their food while they were on the hill. And yeah, they would spend the morning in the latrine, the next day, you know, getting rid of that hot food. Interviewer: “So, alright. Now one of the kind of standard things people in Vietnam, was they would get an R&R. They’d get to go leave the country for a while and go somewhere else and––” Yeah. Interviewer: “–– did you get that? And where did you go?” Yeah I was–– I was very lucky. I had signed up to go to–– you sign up where you want to go. You could go to Thailand, you could go to Bangkok, Thailand. You could go to Japan, you could go to Australia, and you could go to Hawaii. Most of the married guys that were there ended up going to Hawaii and they flew their–– their wives flew over to meet ‘em in Hawaii. So we didn’t mess with going to Hawaii. It would’ve been nice but we didn’t mess with that. So, I signed up to go to, to Australia, and I think it was in April of that year I went–– I was able to go to �Australia. They–– they took us by Braniff International Airlines from Da Nang to the north part of Australia. I can’t think of the name of it, a city there, to refuel. And while they were refuelling, they had to have the plane emptied of soldiers. We all had to get off the airplane. So they took us off–– they were concerned about drugs. You know, marijuana and whatever else. They took us off three at a time, three seats across. They took us off three at a time, they had MPs there at the airport, and they searched our seats, they searched us, and then they let us off the airplane. It took quite a while for 160 guys to get off the airplane and, and they refueled and it was northern tip of Australia–– Interviewer: “Like Townsville–– Townsville or––” No, it was–– Interviewer: “Darwin, which is in the middle [of the north coast] of the country?” (1:46:45). Yeah. No, this was at the tip on the, on the–– I can’t–– Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah. It’s closest to kind of New Guinea sort of thing but––” Yes, right up at the top. And then they–– we flew from there to, to Sydney, Australia. Then they inspected us again. They did the same thing. You know, oh man. You know, this is what it’s going to be like, what’s it going to be like when we get off, you know. We had–– they had booked us a hotel in downtown Sydney and it was fabulous. It was absolutely–– the Australians love the Americans, you know, and the–– I think the Americans love the Australians, and we had–– we had a few down the street from us, our hotel, there was a park and they had a few people demonstrating down there but nothing real–– real serious. Nothing’s–– nothing violent, you know. And then, what the Australians–– what the Australians did–– well I, I was lucky. I had gone to a bar, like the first night I was there, downtown Sydney, and I had met this Navy guy that had been there for three weeks. So, he knew the lay of the land in Sydney. And he says, “Okay.” He said, “Guys write this down.” So we were sitting at a table, having drinks, and he wanted us–– he wrote down all the places in Sydney that were giving free drinks to the U.S. Military. And they would open their clubs, you know these, these, you know, these private clubs. They would open them and they–– they had discos then, you know. That you had to pay to get into. And he gave us a list of all those places to go to, where we could get free drinks, you know, listen to music, you know, have a great time, and they also–- the secretaries and the, and the girls downtown, that work downtown, they would let them in, you know, for happy hour as well. So, we got to meet a lot of people, you know, and we had a–– we had an absolutely fantastic time down in–– and we went into the country without a passport because, you know, we went in as–– on with military orders–– (1:49:16). �Interviewer: “Right.” –– you know, so. We left. We left the country, went back to Vietnam and then a month–– a couple months later I said “Gee, I’d really like to go back there again.” And I found some of the guys were actually taking a leave. You could–– you had accrued some leave time, you know, so I said “Well I want to go back to Australia.” So they said “Okay, if you know–– if you go back to Australia this time, as a civilian, not a military, you had to have a passport.” Oh, crap. So I said “Okay, what do I need? What do I need to do to get a passport?” “Well you have to apply, you have to send it in, and you have to go to Saigon and go to the Australian Embassy and get a Visa. I thought, “Oh gee.” I mean it’s a long ways from, it’s a long way from Chu Lai to Saigon and, and then we had to–– we had to take military flights down there, which I did. And then I think the Vung Tau was the place where the–– some of the flights took out of for, for the R&R’s, so I got my–– I went to the Australian Embassy, I got, got my Visa, my passport. Went to the Australian Embassy, got my Visa, you know, was right–– it was right near the, the U.S. Embassy in, in Saigon. The one they showed the pictures of when everybody was leaving and everything and it’s one that was–– was run over almost during Tet. There were still a lot of guards there–– there was a lot of, a lot of damage there, so. But they held it for what, six hours or something like that? They held the U.S. Embassy for six hours and so I went back to the base of the–– where their flights were going out of. And it was–– I could only go on standby, if anybody canceled. Well, of course, I didn’t. I didn’t go. I didn’t get to get on any flights to Australia. So I’m two–– two days into this seven day leave and I’m thinking “Got five days left, what can I do?” So they said “Well you can go to–– you can go to some other country.” I said “Okay, where can I go?” They said “Well, you could go to Taipei, Taiwan.” I said “Oh, interesting.” All by myself–– wasn’t with anybody–– any other military guys. So, I caught a Northwest Orient flight out of the airport to Taipei, Taiwan. All by myself and went to Taipei. Had the best pizza I think I’ve ever had in my life in Taipei and didn’t really–– had civilian clothes, didn’t really dress in military. I think they knew I was military, but didn’t–– didn’t dress that way. But you know, toward the–– toward the countryside, got–– took, took taxis out to–– I said “Take me to a park where there’s waterfalls.” They take me to a place where there’s waterfalls and, and all of that and toured the–– toured Taipei a little bit, you know, so, it was–– it was fun. It was fun. (1:52:37). Interviewer: “Okay. Now, did you stay a full year in Vietnam?” Yes. I landed there–– I think we landed there on the 22nd of October, a year and two days since I’d gone into the army and then, I think I rotated out the 1st of October 1968. So I was literally in the army for, for two years. Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you counting down the days to––” Oh yes. �Interviewer: “–– to leave?” Yes. I’m glad you brought that up. Yes, we were–– everybody was–– everybody had a short timer calendar. Okay, and this was my short timer calendar. Can you see that? Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so you got your, your army helmet there and the boots underneath––” Yep. Yep–– Interviewer: “–– counting down the days.” –– and I had First of the 46th written on the back here, but yeah it was–– you colored in everyday and then you became next. That was on September 30th, so. I put Red Cross girls down here. I don’t know why I put that down there, but who knows. It was probably part of the thing when we had the USO come to the base and the USO troops would come in and they would give us some entertainment, so. Interviewer: “Well there were Red Cross girls or, then in previous wars they were called Donut Dollies sometimes, but there were–– there were women volunteers who would go out. Did you ever see any of those in Vietnam?” No–– yeah I did, but they never went out in the field with us. (1:54:13). Interviewer: “Well no––” Yeah. Interviewer: “–– that was not a part of it. They would come to the bases or whatever. Yeah.” So we were–– you were a short timer. How short can you get? So that’s–– that’s what we had and the other thing is of–– this is an actual–– in our, on our Hill 69 ths was an actual flag that flew over our med station on the hill, and that was a combat–– combat medical badge that somebody had gone to a village and had made up for us. You know, so they took our CMBs and made that white plastic thing, so. I forgot that I had it.I was going through some stuff and–– Interviewer: “There it was.” –– it’s still in pretty good shape. �Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, now are there other things that, that happened in, in Vietnam that kind of stand out in your memory or things that you haven’t covered? Check your notes there if you’d like.” Yeah. I’ll check my notes quickly but yeah, I pretty much covered a lot of the stuff that, that–– with your help–– that I had gone through, so. It was funny our–– when we were deploying out of Fort Hood, our Sergeant was a–– we called him a lifer. He was in–– he had been in for five and three-quarters years, you know, so, the guys did not like him. He gave us a hard time. In fact, it was kind of interesting. We had–– we had ministers come on the base and come to our, our area, where we were, our–– our bunks were and stuff. You know, are in at Fort Hood and anybody–– they would announce it, you know, over the intercom system “anybody wants to see a Catholic priest or a Lutheran minister” or whatever. And apparently the–– the clergy would go through the list, you know, of people that were there on the–– at that time. And they came on my name, which was my last name, which was Rosin. And I was–– my last name is spelled with an i-n and the Jewish people spelled their name with an e-n. R-o-s-e-n. So every time a rabbi would come on the base, you know, they would call me over to the, to the–– to the office and I’d have to go over there and I said “Sorry, Rabbi, that I’m not a…” You know, I’m not–– Interviewer: “Not Jewish.” –– not Jewish. But every time they would–– every time they would do that and you think, I think “Sergeant, you know–– this is the third time this has happened.” You know, “Oh, I forgot.” You know that kind of thing, so. But he left. He actually got out of the army before we deployed to Vietnam, so. So. I didn’t tell you about the other thing. Before we were–– the night before we left, did I say about we all went to the PX and–– (1:57:38). Interviewer: “You don’t–– not on camera.” Okay. Not on camera. Okay, we all–– the night before we were going to leave Fort Hood, we all went to the PX. We had gone to the bar and got, you know, a few beers in us. Then after that we went to the PX and we said “Now what can we do that would be different?” So we said, “Oh! Lady Clairol.” You know, hair dye. So we went–– we went and picked up boxes of Lady Clairol hair dye and there were, there were six of us. I dyed my hair blonde, completely blonde. One guy, Ray Jones, had pink hair. Another guy had blue hair, another guy had silver hair, you know, another guy had blonde hair. So, we went up the next morning, we had to–– every morning he went off a reveille–– and they called your attention. When they showed the colors we had to take off our hat, you know, and the Sergeant was standing there and he looked and he looked again. He did a double take, you know, he says “You can’t do that.” We said “Well, it’s done.” You know, we did it. He’s–– he was really flustered. He didn’t know–– he didn’t know if it was legal �military wise to do that or not. So, a little while later he came back to us, he said “You guys are going to have to go to headquarters and get new IDs taken.” “What?” “You know, yeah. You have a different hair color. It’s not the same hair color that you have on your ID, so you’re going to have to get new IDs taken.” The guy–– one guy says “Well what about–– what happens when our hair grows out?” “Well, just keep your other ID and you can use that at that time.” So, it was hilarious, you know, we had a–– we had a really good time. And then in the three weeks we took the ship over, just before we landed, we all got haircuts, you know, before we landed in Vietnam and by that time the blonde hair was, was pretty well–– was pretty well gone but it was, it was hilarious. So, we had a good–– we had a good time. So, you gotta–– you gotta do those things, you know. The guys–– guys–– and we all knew each other. You know, we had gone through–– a lot of us had gone through basic together and everything else, so. And that was another great thing, we went over as a battalion so we all trusted each other and then they trusted me as their medic, I trusted them as having my back, you know, when we needed too and the confidence level ramped up a little bit after I delivered the baby. You know, the guys were very, very happy that–– that I was with them and they were very confident of what I could do. So that–– that helped that situation a lot. (2:00:42). Interviewer: “Okay.” So we had–– a lot of times at night we would be sleeping or whatever and next morning the guys would come to me and that. One guy, one morning, came to me and says, he says, “Doc, I got a– – I got a Tootsie Roll in my mouth.” I said, “What? Where’d you get a Tootsie Roll?” He said, “Well I don’t think it’s a Tootsie Roll.” So during the night we were sleeping in a very wet area, on the side of a hill, and a leech had crawled in his mouth and his whole front of his lip on the inside, there was a leech in his mouth. So he said, “Doc, you gotta get rid of it.” I said, “Okay.” Usually we–– when the leeches, if you touch them with a cigarette butt they would, they would let go. So we–– this, then we had the, what they called, the bug juice. The stuff that you put on, you know, like Off, you know, and it was pretty strong stuff. So I said, “Well” whatever his name was, I said, “The only thing that I can do is, you’re going to have to grin and bear it. I’m going to put some of this bug juice on that thing, you know?” And as soon as I hit it with the bug juice it–– it, it let go. And, so yeah. So yeah that was where–– those were interesting, those are interesting times. And then one night we were walking on patrol. We’re on one hill and then–– it was moonlight–– we could see another group of guys walking the other direction, on another hill maybe 100 yards away, you know, a column of guys. And I asked one of the guys, I said, “Who are they?” They said, “Oh. They’re not us.” You know, it must have been–– it must have been the NVA over there. We never–– never had an issue with them but they were, they were–– they were night walking just like we were doing, so. So yeah. (2:02:54). Interviewer: “And when you were living in the base camp, would that ever get hit with mortars or rockets or anything like that?” �Well, the–– yeah. The–– the night we were supposed to leave the country, the 30th of September. So the 29th of September on base camp, on Hill 69, we turned in our weapons because we wouldn’t be needing them anymore. We turned ‘em all in and we got ready to go. Got ready to pack and then one of the guys said, he says, “Wow.” He said, “You don’t wanna–– you don’t wanna go to, to the airport.” He said, “The Chu Lai airport,” he says–– or Da Nang, wherever we were going. I guess it was Da Nang. He said, “They’re putting the guys–– all the army guys are being put to duty down there. They’re either painting, they’re doing KP, you know, they’re cleaning, cleaning latrines, they’re doing all this stuff for the people that I just left the day before.” You know, I said, “No, we don’t wanna do that.” So we said, okay, what we’ll do is spend the night here on Hill 69. One more night shouldn’t be a problem, you know. So, about, about midnight that night we start hearing small arms fire. And then we got–– then we saw mortars were incoming into this hill, which had never been attacked the whole year that we were there. So, they snuck in through some areas. The Viet Cong snuck in, they had satchel charges with them. They blew up one end of the, of the cook's place, where they were staying, you know their–– their hut–– and they were hurt. They were hurt so we had, we had to treat those guys. We’re saying–– we’re there, no weapons, you know, didn’t have any extra weapons, you know. The NVA was–– or the Viet Cong were coming in. They were trying to overrun the hill. Well, they fought ‘em back. They were hoped–– they were–– they were hoping for, since we were–– we were leaving the country or had left the hill–– the experienced troops that had been there a year, that they could overrun it without any trouble. So–– Interviewer: “Were there new guys there manning the perimeter?” New guys that had just got there. They got indoctrinated real quick. Interviewer: “So did the whole battalion worth of people go at the same time or did they do you in staggered groups or not––” Yeah. There was probably 50 of us that went at one time. (2:05:49). Interviewer: “Yeah.” We didn’t do everybody, but enough. And we said later, we said–– we wrote these guys. They said, “How did they–– how did they determine this?” Well, they said they went and interrogated the people that were in these, this village, just outside the gate. And they had apparently given the Viet Cong information that we had–– we had left the hill. The experienced troops had left the hill, they could overrun it, you know, if they wanted to. So, yeah. That was–– so the night before I flew home, all hell broke loose. But luckily, none of us got hurt , that were leaving. And those that got hurt, weren’t real serious, you know, so. Yeah. It was, it was an–– �–– interesting, interesting time. Interviewer: “Alright. So the next day you successfully get out.” We successfully get out and when the–– when the Braniff International 707 lifted off the tarmac in Da Nang, you heard the biggest cheer you ever heard in your life. So. We flew to Japan and refueled and then we got everybody off the airplane again. And then, then we flew to Seattle, Washington. We–– we got out of the army at Fort Lewis in Seattle, so. Interviewer: “Okay. And then how did you get home from there?” There–– then we flew. We flew home from Seattle to Minneapolis and then [from] Minneapolis I went to Bay City and a lot of guys–– a couple of guys came to here to Grand Rapids. So. Interviewer: “Yeah. Did you fly in uniform or in civilian clothes?” Yes, we flew in uniform. We didn’t have–– I didn’t have any civilian clothes at that time. So one interesting thing was they promised you a steak dinner when you landed at Fort Lewis. “Welcome back to the U.S.” So, we stood in line–– four o’clock in the morning–– and we stood in line at this mess hall at Fort Lewis. And they–– I saw them take the steaks out of the freezer, literally, and throw ‘em on the grill. You know, on the hot griddle and that was our steak dinner. You know. And it was good, you know, it was good. Potatoes and, and all that stuff. And you know we–– guys didn’t feel real good, you know, because we weren’t used to eating that stuff. After they, you know, after they fed us that meal. That was our breakfast. So I had some–– some compazine tablets along so I–– still being the medic–– I handed those out to some of the guys that didn’t feel good, so. So–– (2:08:40). Interviewer: “Alright.” –– yeah. Interviewer: “So, and then once you get back home, what do you do?” Well, once I got back home I went–– I took a few weeks off–– then I went back to work for the company that I’d worked for before I went to Vietnam. And they actually, or actually went–– before I went in the service–– the two years that I spent in the Army, they gave me credit for–– �as, as time within the–– for the company. So the pension and everything was, went on from there. Interviewer: “What kind of work were you doing for them?” Well, I started out as a draftsman in the engineering department and then went into the sales layout department where–– the company that I worked for sold commercial bakery equipment to companies like Nabisco and Pepperidge Farms and Keebler. The big long ovens and the–– that–– and the bread lines also to Tasty Bread and all that type of thing. So I graduated from there, or not graduated, I went up in the company and I eventually became a salesman in the cookies and crackers side of the business and sold that equipment. Traveled all over the country, traveled to Europe, traveled to Mexico and selling–– selling bakery equipment. My biggest accounts were Pepperidge and Keebler. Got to know how to make Goldfish crackers. So. And then in 1995 when I was working there, one of my bosses came up to me and said, “We’ve been contacted by Bien Hoa sugar company in Vietnam and they want to put an American cookie line into their plant in Vietnam. I said, “Okay, well guys,” I said, “been there and done that. I don’t really wanna go back there again.” So we went back and forth for a few weeks and eventually I agreed to go back to Vietnam in 1995 for ten days, and flew from–– to–– San Francisco and then flew all the way from San Francisco to Hong Kong. And then flew from Hong Kong into Ho Chi Minh city, or Saigon in 1995. It was a very interesting experience because when you were in Hong Kong, it was like being in Las Vegas. You know, the lights of the city and that. Everything was lit up at night, we took off at night. When we landed in Vietnam it was like total darkness. There was no lights. Even the city of any–– even the city was not lit up. You know, and we were–– we were coming in to land and I’m thinking “Where’s the airport?” You know, it’s total darkness and so, they didn’t give us too hard a time going through customs. We stayed in–– we stayed in downtown Ho Chi Minh City, I guess it’s called, and just the life–– the lifestyle difference of the people, you know. They were, they were nice people. They were all very courteous and nice. We appreciated with Bien Hoa Sugar Company and I–– we had to have interpreters. I think the people at Bien Hoa could speak English but they wanted–– they only spoke Vietnamese. You know, so. So we got the order. We built the equipment in Grand Rapids, here, and the ovens and the forming machines for the cookies. And before they shipped ‘em over to Vietnam, they wanted to send their representatives from the factory over here to test the equipment. (2:12:51). Interviewer: “Yeah.” So they sent their representatives over and we had a lab and we set the equipment up, we ran it, we made cookies. So they were all happy. One morning I went in there into the lab and I could see feet out from under one of the machines. I said, “What is he doing?” So, you know, I don’t know who they had negotiated or purchased the equipment from in the past, but they were–– �there was a guy in there with an electric engraver and he was engraving in the frame of the machine, underneath, a code that so they were sure that when the machine got over there, that it was the same machine that we tested over here. So, and then it was funny because one of the lab managers, he had to pick him up every morning at the hotel and he said, “Oh,” he said, “those guys” he said, “that’s all they did was watch X-rated movies.” We had to pay for this. We had agreed that we would pay for this and then they would, they would go to the supermarket and they would buy all fresh fruit. That’s all they would eat. They were vegetarians. That’s all they would eat, is no, no meat. So. Interviewer: “Did any of them know that you had been in Vietnam?” Yes. I think they did. Yeah, I think they did. They knew it and in ‘95 when I was over there, you know, these big deuce-and-a-half’s–– these big trucks that they ran–– they were still running them. The diesels were still running. And a couple of ‘em had–– going down the road with telephone poles from one end of the truck to the other, out the back, right next to the–– right next to the driver. There was no way he could see to the right when he was driving this truck, you know. There you go down, down the highway with these–– with these trucks. So. But the people were very nice over there. They were very courteous. There was no animosity towards the Americans, you know, at that time. So, you know, it wasn’t bad. Interviewer: “They won.” What’s that? Interviewer: “They won. Be generous at that point.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, so look back at the time that you spent in the service. What do you think you took out of that or how did that affect you?” Well, I think what I took out of there was some friendships that I made with the guys. You see the world from a different perspective, you know. You look at things differently. You look at what you have differently. All the conveniences you have–– ice cream, you know. You look at those things. You know, cars and dental care. You know, you look at–– you look at all those things and you’re very thankful that what you have here. And you still feel, you know, you feel sorry for those people over there, that have to go live with that day-to-day. Even though the communists took that back over again, their lifestyle improved a little bit, but they were still going down the street–– walking down the street–– there were still live utility wires, you know, at head level, when you were walking down the street. You know, so. But yeah, like I said earlier �the code of conduct, I think, was something that we should all live by, you know. And the help that we gave to those people, you know, stemmed communism for a little while anyway. You know. And I think that made, personally, and made us feel good and made us all feel good over there. It was–– there was really not much, you know, objection to being over there by the guys. They–– they were there to do a job, they did the job, and they came home. So. (2:16:52). Interviewer: “And was it–– what was the ethnic mix in your battalion? Were there a lot of black guys or just a few––” Yeah there was–– I would say we were probably 30 percent black and then there were, there were some Orientals, you know, as well. There were a few guys from Mexico that were, you know, are Americans. But mostly it was, it was white guys, you know. So. Interviewer: “And were there any racial issues that you noticed in the––” No. Interviewer: “–– time there?” No. I didn’t see any racial issues at all when I was there. So–– Interviewer: “Because you were there at the time when Martin Luther King was killed and– –” Yeah. Interviewer: “–– and that kind of stuff. And so, but that was not reverberating at least where you were?” No. I remember when–– Interviewer: “Bobby Kennedy––” Kennedy. Robert Kennedy was killed. You know, that–– which shook everybody up. You know, and the Martin Luther King thing never, never–– at least I didn’t pay any attention to it, if it was bad. (2:17:54). Interviewer: “Well you had other things to worry about at the time––” Yeah. �Interviewer: “–– I suppose––” Right. Interviewer: “–– but because that was still in the aftermath of well that, that stuff. Where the stuff was still going on at that point.” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “There was plenty going on. Yeah. Now today are you involved with any veterans groups or things like that?” Yeah. I’m involved with the, the Veterans of America group. We meet once a month in Grand Rapids. We meet at Marge’s Donuts. And I figured I should give back a little bit of my training that I had from the military, so once a week I volunteer at the VA Health Clinic in Wyoming and I–– I’m not doing any medical things but I’m in the administrative section where when the people get back to see their patient advocate or the release of information or the eligibility thing. I–– I’m kind of the gatekeeper there to let people back. I do that once a week, four hours in the morning on Wednesdays. Yep. Interviewer: “Alright. Well you’ve done a fine job for us here today, so thank you very much for taking the time to share the story.” Well, thank you for allowing me to do this. I appreciate the opportunity. I’d like to say, when we came back, you know, just because of the animosity towards the Vietnam veterans–– the Vietnam War–– we didn’t say too much. You know, but as time goes on now I think it’s important that the people hear this from a history standpoint. You know, I don’t know if there’s even–– if they even study the Vietnam War in schools anymore. Interviewer: “There’s not a lot in the Michigan state high school curriculum.” Yeah. Interviewer: “You can get a little bit and it depends on what the individual teachers do, but yeah. Not, not a whole heck of a lot. Yeah.” But we appreciate–– I appreciate what Grand Valley State University has done to do this and the veterans that I’ve talked to all appreciate what you guys do. (2:20:01). �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RosinJ2356V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosin, James Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05 Title A name given to the resource Rosin, James (Interview transcript and video), 2021 Description An account of the resource Jim Rosin was born in September 1947 in Bay City, Michigan. Rosin lived there all his adolescent life and graduated from Bay City Central High School in 1965. Upon graduation Rosin went to work for a company in Saginaw, Michigan that sold bakery equipment. However, in the summer of 1966 Rosin was summoned to Detroit where he had to get a physical for the military. Eventually Rosin was cleared for military service. October 20, 1966 was the day Rosin was to report for military duty. He then began the trek down from Bay City to Detroit to then Fort Wayne. Eventually, Rosin and his peers were taken down to Fort Knox in Lexington, Kentucky. Rosin and the rest of his group were eventually split up and Rosin was selected to head to Fort Hood in Texas to complete his basic training. Here Rosin took an aptitude test and was selected to be an Army Medic. In the summer of 1967 Rosin traveled to Vietnam where he served in the 46th Infantry. Because of his time in Vietnam, Rosin was awarded two Bronze Stars. One for putting his obstetric training to use and delivering a baby, and the other for meritorious service. Rosin service ended when he eventually rotated out on October 1st 1968. He returned back home and continued to work for the company selling bakery equipment. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/139651461267ddef1d78fe6b46a63116.mp4 64eb805aef431fb76dcd57cd50d5f6d7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/68666059aa592cd456f4e61144fd9f0b.pdf cd929c6496733b10fae2d608d44d8162 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Robert Ross Length: 32:35 (00:20) Background Information  Robert was born on January 12, 1926  He was in the Naval Reserves during WWII and served in the Pacific arena  Robert enlisted when he was 17 years old because he did not want to be drafted into the Army  He had not finished school and made it through the 11th grade (1:30) Training  Robert went through basic training at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago, Illinois for 6 weeks  Training was not too difficult for him because he was young and in good shape  The hardest part was getting used to constantly being told what to do and he did not really make any friends while there  After training Robert went home for 30 days on leave, then took a troop train from Detroit, Michigan to California (3:20) Guadalcanal  Robert and 5,000 other men left on a troop ship from California, where they had been waiting for a month at the staging area  It was a brand new ship and it was very full  They had no duties; all they did was eat, and then get in the chow line for the next time around; it took hours for 5,000 men to go through the line  They arrived on the island and that night there was a huge explosion that woke them  It looked like the entire sky was on fire after a large ship had been blown up � There were no survivors and bodies were being washed up on shore for days (6:40) Average Days  Robert had been transferred once to a Merchant Marine ship and found the food to be much better; they even had real eggs  On regular Navy ships the majority of the food was dehydrated: Powdered milk, eggs, potatoes…  He had been in the Pacific for 1 year before he received a package his mother had sent months ago  All the money and anything else worth anything had been removed from the package  Robert worked on 5 different Carrier Air Craft Service Units, or CASUAL outfits, while in the service  They worked on hauling aviation fuel and empty tanks  Robert spent a total of 19 months working in the Pacific (15:35) Pacific Islands  Robert felt that all the islands seemed the same and would have much rather worked in Europe  He stayed with the same small group of men while transferring from ship to ship  He made a few really good friends from Virginia and Michigan  They were never allowed any furlough because there was no place to go while on the islands  In New Caledonia they were allowed to go into town on their time off, but everywhere else they were not allowed off base because they had to stay away from the women  All the nurses on the islands were with the Army and the Navy men were not even allowed to talk to them (22:25) End of Service � Robert had been sent back to California on a converted luxury liner and then hitchhiked to Chicago  The government had given him enough money to make it back to Chicago, but he had wanted to keep it for himself  Robert traveled in his uniform and everyone was very nice to him and buying him drinks  He moved back to Michigan and began working in Ionia and later began working in a prison  Being in the Navy helped him to become a much more respectful and disciplined person � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RossR Title A name given to the resource Ross, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ross, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Ross was born on January 12, 1926 and enlisted in the Navy when he was just 17 years old because he had not wanted to be drafted into the Army. He went through training at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago, Illinois and was then shipped out to the Pacific after having 30 days leave. While in the Pacific Robert worked on 5 different Carrier Air Craft Service Units, or CASUAL outfits, hauling aviation fuel and empty tanks. Robert spent a total of 19 months in the Pacific and moved back to Michigan after he was discharged. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ferlito, Lori (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Naval Reserve Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-05-15 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b1644f968b6eb836176fe72140a7b4c.mp4 26157690b9c4fa7f72d56107de990c4a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/93ef78a1006927645182116a39475b20.pdf 0ff0b15dca68b977139bf7fe7b7293e6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Thomas Michael Ross (07:30) (01:10)Childhood Zeeland HS Father worked for Chemical Company 2 Brothers Mike and Dan, older and younger Shot Marbles in Grade school Played Basketball Still acquainted with classmate that went on to join Marines (07:30) Service Dropped out of HS in 11th Grade, Got GED Joined Navy, Great Lakes IL for Boot Camp 9 wks training, 2 wks leave Norfolk VA for Ship Service School, didn’t make good marks, became boatswains’ mate Spent time in Puerto Rico and Roosevelt Roads, Guantanamo, and drydock in Charleston SC Worked on a nuclear supply ship as sub tender. USS Fulton AS11 Visited USS Nimitz, needed to be short to work on it   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RossT Title A name given to the resource Ross, Thomas Michael (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ross, Thomas Michael Description An account of the resource Thomas Michael Ross was born in Holland, Michigan in 1954. He attended Zeeland High School, and served in the United States Navy between 1975 and 1979. One of his assignments was on a nuclear supply ship as sub tender aboard USS Fulton AS11. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-02-19 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b100aab37d44120657caadbcdb4f7c7a.pdf 18796c961d4eb166653aacc40e68d660 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ross, Wanda Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/24/2012 Biography and Description Wanda Ross grew up in Chicago, the granddaughter of migrants from the southern United States. Shortly after she began college, she started attending political education classes taught by “Teach” of the Black Panther Party for Self Defense (BPP). She joined the BPP shortly thereafter. She was chief developer of the BPP’s Breakfast for Children Program. Ms. Ross describes how she started the Chicago program, including how she identified donors who would be willing to give food to the program, picked up those supplies, and organized teams to cook and serve the children who participated in the program. The BPP Breakfast Program was used as a model by other organizations, including the Young Lords and Young Patriots. The program also served as a model for the free breakfast programs currently offered through public schools. Ms. Ross talks about working with representatives of those other groups. She also describes the regular abuse, harassment, and vandalism she experienced from police and other law enforcement operatives while she was working on the Breakfast Program. This includes her experiences with Bill O’Neil, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s COINTELPRO operative who arranged for BPP Chairman Fred Hampton’s assassination in 1971. Ms. Ross remains a community activist in Chicago, putting into practice her reminder that “saving the world” is a lifetime commitment. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Wanda, if you can give me your full name, date of birth, and where you were born. WANDA ROSS: My name is Wanda Ross. I was born, Cook County Hospital, Chicago, Illinois. 9/28/50. JJ: 9/28/50? And your parents, were they born here, too? In Chicago? WR: It’s my understanding, I was adopted by people within my family line. And they were born here in Chicago, my auntie and my cousin. JJ: Your auntie and your cousin? WR: Right. My -- JJ: Okay. So, they raised you, then? WR: Yes. Yes. JJ: And what’s their name? WR: That would be [Bernice?] Ross, who was my cousin, and my great-aunt would be [Jessie Circe?] -- Jessie Circe probably was born in Alabama. Bernice Ross was born in Cook County Hospital. JJ: Okay. You have any other siblings, or --? [00:01:00] And their names. WR: There’s three different sets of kids. I happened to be with the second set, but like I said, I was adopted, so I was raised away from them. JJ: From all of them? WR: Right. Well, we have connected over time, but not as a child. JJ: Okay. What about other aunts and uncles, were they around, or --? 1 �WR: I didn’t really interact with a lot of other people, except the folks that raised me. They were old folks. JJ: They were old folks? WR: Right, so I was an old folks’ child. JJ: Okay. So, what’s so different between that and the traditional parents, or? WR: I guess, you know -- Everybody in the household was over 40 but me, so they put me in a lot of activities. I did Girl Scouts, I did whatever activity they could find for me. I did not interact with my brothers and sisters growing up, because I didn’t know ’em that [00:02:00] well. And basically it was a small family, it was a small family unit. JJ: Okay. So, you didn’t -- Did you stay at home, also, or, I mean, sheltered, like, somewhat, or were you outgoing, or were able to -- I know you didn’t interact with other children. WR: Well, I didn’t say “not interact with other children”. But, at the old folks’ home, you have a certain approach to things. I mean, I took dancing, I took -- They had me in activities to keep me from bouncing off the walls. And I went to a Catholic grammar school, Catholic high school. So-- JJ: Okay. What school? What Catholic school? WR: I went to St. Dorothy. JJ: Okay, where was that located? WR: Grammar school, that’s at -- 77th and Vernon, it’s on the South Side of Chicago. JJ: On the South Side, on the South Side. 2 �WR: And then I went to a Catholic high school, which was within walking distance. That was Mercy, I don’t think it’s [00:03:00] there anymore. JJ: So how was the grammar school, any unique things that you did there, or --? WR: I’m not sure what you’re looking for, the uniqueness of a childhood. JJ: Yeah, I’m just trying to find out, you know, growing up, how it was growing up, basically, I’m just trying to describe for people that are not from Chicago or have no concept about that. So that’s basically (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Well, it’s like a snapshot demographic, everybody’s childhood is different. I went back and forth until I was finally adopted. So, I did stay with my mom, I think up until I was maybe three or four. But I was sickly. I had tuberculosis and had been in a tuberculosis sanatorium for a year. [00:04:00] It just so happened that my cousin and my aunt were more committed, because I was presenting a lot of health issues that my mom didn’t want to deal with. So, I went back and forth for a while. So, for a while I was a sickly kid. Then, when I finally came to live with them at seven, I just stayed -- JJ: Back and forth to where? WR: Huh? JJ: Back and forth to where? I didn’t get -- WR: I lost my train of thought. JJ: I’m sorry. WR: I don’t know where I was. JJ: You were describing about (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 3 �WR: I stayed with my mom for a minute. Then I was back with my auntie and cousin - JJ: But your mom lives here? WR: Then I went back with my mom. And I got sick again, and I went back with them, and then they kept me. JJ: Okay, (inaudible). WR: So, I mean, you know, as a sickly kid, I guess I didn’t, you know -- Then, when I stayed there, I think I came to stay with them at 7, and at 10, they adopted me. So. JJ: [00:05:00] Okay. But was your mom here, or in Alabama? WR: She was here. But, I think, somewhere in the late ’60s, but I was pretty much an adult, or close to being an adult, she moved down to southern Illinois. Right, so I think she lives around Carbondale, Murphysboro, that kind of stuff. JJ: How would you describe your neighborhood in the South Side, at that time? WR: My neighborhood was one that -- I grew up in Chatham. White folks were just leaving the neighborhood, and Black folks were moving in. And I remember, the only reason I went to Catholic school was ’cause it was down the street. But I think that the nuns were caught up in having to deal with Black children, and it [00:06:00] wasn’t what they were trying to do. Because we had -- We didn’t have big issues, but we still had some racial issues, because, I don’t think they were prepared for the neighborhood to change. Eh. JJ: So, kind of racial issues, are you [talking about?]? 4 �WR: Well, always nuns, with, you know, “you people”. You know, there’s a demeanor. Of, dealing with -- you could tell that they got caught in a changing neighborhood. And there was nothing that they could do about it. You know, they were sisters of Mercy, they had to do what they needed to do. And the younger ones were a lot better, the older ones, they had issues. We didn’t have issues. [Phone rings] JJ: So, you’re describing that your neighborhood was changing at the -- WR: Yeah, I mean, Black folks were moving in, I mean, I’m still a kid. So, you know, there’s a lot of things that I can assess looking back. But when you’re in the middle of it -- [00:07:00] Because I remember the three or four white folks that were left on the block. There was an old couple that was next to us, and my mom used to make me go over there and be nice to them, which was just -- JJ: Didn’t wanna be nice to ’em? WR: Not at all. (laughter) Not at all. They were old folks, they were white -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but you were young. WR: -- and they smelled like pee, which is what old folks smell like. So, you know we made up stories. Somebody was Dracula, somebody was the wife of Dracula, you know, just stuff, and, you know, it took me getting older to be able to see them as just people. Because they were still kind of, you know, when people are outside of your regular, everyday, thing, like I said, they were old folks, they were white, and they smelled like pee. You know? This would never fly. You know? JJ: Yeah. (inaudible) WR: But -- 5 �JJ: But then your mom, or, [00:08:00] I mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Who I called my mom, would’ve been my cousin. There’s just things that I think the neighborhood was more of a neighborhood, like, I think that people across the street were an old married couple, didn’t have kids; she made me go over there to visit with them, so there are just certain things in place, that sense of neighborhood, that -- And there was an old white German guy that was left, he didn’t speak English well. But see, now, he would come out with a pistol and just scare everybody away. You know, if we ran through his yard, or that -- You know, so, I mean, you get bits and pieces of some white folks that were left behind. JJ: So, there were -- WR: -- because they didn’t have resources to move. And then you get other pieces of just, the sense of neighborhood, because we all knew each other. And I think we played within a two- or three-block [00:09:00] radius, something like that. So, you know, on the neighborhood, you had, on the block, you had a teacher, a doctor, a funeral director. I think there was somebody at the end of the block that might have might have dealt drugs. But it was a sense of, professional people plus other people, that all lived together in one situation. So, there was a lot more, maybe, respect, from kids, you know. From kids to old folks. A lot more Black people owned things. Because I don’t remember having to go out of the neighborhood for too many things that I needed. The grocery store was down the street, so-and-so was across the street, you know. So, it was self-sufficient, [00:10:00] in some ways. And, in other ways, I guess I didn’t see the lack until I 6 �got older. You know, as a kid, I’m cool. School was down the street. Mom is here. Somebody else is across the street that’s going to tell anybody if I do something wrong. You know, it’s that sense of neighborhood. But the interesting thing is that we didn’t go east. We didn’t go past Stony Island. I remember getting -- because the neighborhood was still white in a lot of areas. I’m at King Drive, so King Drive is, like, about 400 East. Stony Island is 1600 East. Okay, so you still have a large white clientele that you, you just didn’t go there. You know. I can reme-JJ: Were you afraid to go there, or -- WR: Huh? JJ: Were you afraid to go there, [00:11:00] or --? WR: You know what, I’m not sure if I was afraid. I was just told, “You just don’t go there.” JJ: Okay, just told. WR: You know and I can remember my mom taking me somewhere to get a Brownie outfit at Evergreen Plaza. But they wouldn’t sell to Black folks, and that was at 95th and Western. I mean, you know, there’s little things that you remember as you grow up. I don’t remember anything other than just dirty looks, I mean, you know, nobody -- JJ: So, there were dirty looks (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Right. Nobody picked me up and threw me down, you know. But -- JJ: Were there, like, gangs or anything like that? Or white gangs, or no? WR: Not that I was familiar with. Not at all. I think the -- 7 �JJ: In Lincoln Park, we’d face white gangs. WR: Right, no, we did. We did. But then again, as a girl, my experience would be different than some of the young men. Because, [00:12:00] I mean, we were still of the age, all the way through high school, if we went to parties, you know, somebody’s mom had to take us there and pick us up. But the guys, a lot of the guys came home on the bus, so there’s certain territories that they might not have crossed. And I’m not sure if it was -- I’m pretty sure it wasn’t white gangs, it was just gang territory. But we pretty much got dropped off and picked up to anything that we did outside of the neighborhood, ’cause, we just thought it was parenting. That’s not to say -- and I’m not sure how deep, you know, the gang situation, I think, was just becoming. You know, it wasn’t at the point that it was unsafe, it was more “beware” than being in an unsafe environment. But just be very wary of the environment that you’re in. JJ: ’Cause I know now there’s a large problem on the South Side, I don’t know if that’s the same [00:13:00] area or-- is that where a lot of the gang activity is now? I hear just bits and pieces in Michigan, so. WR: Well, I think in my lifetime, because I’m probably about the same age as Jeff Fort, or he might be a little older. I’m saying that those gangs were developing. But they were still further -- JJ: Was that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? WR: No. That was still much further away from me, ’cause I’m in Chatham. JJ: Right, you’re in Chatham. WR: When you start talking about Jeff Fort, the, what were they, Blackstone Rangers- 8 �JJ: Yeah, the Blackstone Rangers. WR: And the Disciples. The Disciples were west of the expressway. And Blackstone Rangers were basically down in what we called the low end, like, around 63rd. So, it was still not an environment. It’s like, we were aware of them, but they were just beginning to form. And most of the time, a lot of the gang interaction was with each [00:14:00] other. You know, they weren’t necessarily picking on people they didn’t know. Now, that developed, and it changed. But, not as I was growing up, no, I wasn’t that aware of it. Not at all. JJ: So, you didn’t experience none of that? WR: I didn’t experience gang stuff until considerably later. JJ: Okay. You experienced looks that you were getting from (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- WR: Just white folks, you know, like, “Why are you here?” Or, some people refusing to serve us. You know, but most of the time, you know, our parents would interpret that and just push us out of the way. ’Cause we’re kids. You know, we don’t have to do any business interaction. So -- I took dancing at Mayfair Academy. And the guy there, Tommy [00:15:00] Sutton, he used to take us places for us to dance. We did tap. I remember we were on a Ted Mack hour. And I remember when we went downtown, that it was a big deal about him being able to park in a certain parking lot. But most of the time, grown folks always pushed us out of those issues. And I remember that we were at the studio, we were around all day, just to tape two or three minutes. And whenever anything felt uncomfortable, he always just moved us out of the way, so, you know. We 9 �were always around grown folks that were protecting us from certain things, and this had to have been -- I was 10, so it had to have been 1960. JJ: What got you into dancing? I think you sang also, or no, or --? WR: I do now, but I didn’t then. JJ: You didn’t do it then? But what got you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- WR: Being at an old folks’ house. [00:16:00] I mean, you know, it’s kind of like, “We’re gonna have some activ--” ‘cause everybody worked. So, if everybody gets up and go to work, the last thing they need is me sitting at home unattended. My great-auntie, she did day work. Which meant that she went and cleaned white folks’ houses, that’s what she did. I remember, she had a family, they were leaving, and they stopped by the house to say goodbye, and I remember the little girl saying, “Well, they don’t need you!” And they called her by her first name, and I didn’t even know she had a first name! (laughs) She was my auntie, she was a old lady. How does a little-bitty girl say Jessie? I’m like, “Ooh, who are you?” You know? But, so she did day work. Everybody in the household worked. Because we were moving to a better neighborhood, and everybody had to contribute to this, so that also meant that [00:17:00] I needed to be in some activities. They’re not gonna leave a little kid unattended. You know, shoot. I’d be out just doing mayhem and havoc. JJ: Okay. So now, you’re going to school -- WR: Catholic school. JJ: Catholic school, how was that? Was this high school, or no? WR: Catholic grammar school and high school. 10 �JJ: And high school, okay. What school was that? WR: The grammar school was St. Dorothy. JJ: St. Dorothy? WR: And actually, I was there at the time that there was this big dispute. Father Clements -- JJ: He was [working there?]? WR: -- came there. JJ: Oh, he just came there. WR: Right, but there was a Father Lambert already there, who was the first Black priest ordained in [00:18:00] Chicago. And there was this big fight over whether or not -- the white pastor had died, who was going to be the pastor, and it was supposedly between the two Black guys. Father Lambert, since, I think he went on to -- He ended up being over at University of Chicago. And Father Clements was there at St. Dorothy. JJ: So, Father Clements came there. He was there for a few years, or? WR: He was there for a few years, yeah. JJ: Okay. So, he was pretty -- a little progressive, no, Father Clements, or no? WR: I guess you could say he was progressive. JJ: You don’t agree? (laughs) WR: Well, actually, I liked Father Lambert. But the thing about Father Clements [00:19:00] was I think he was a lot more outgoing. There were more things going on. Civil Rights Movement was actually just picking up then. And you had a lot of people coming and trying to raise money. I remember hearing ministers from 11 �SCLC speak that maybe would not have happened under Father Lambert. But I thought Father Clements wanted to just be in the news, that was just my opinion. But I was a kid. You know, I mean, you make assessments of things, because, you know, I’ve grown up with Father Lambert, and here came Father Clements. But he was pastor there for a while. And I do think -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Father Clements in there, you know, because I know of his name. So, what was Father [00:20:00] Lambert, [then?]? WR: Father Lambert eventually ended up being my treasurer when I was with the Panthers. We formed -- I formed a corporation. And I ended up making him the treasurer, so that he had to sign off on stuff. I think I pushed him further than he was willing to go. But he was a good guy. He’s kind of like, “The Panthers?” (laughter) I was sure that I pushed him further than he was willing to go. JJ: But he did it, though. WR: But he did it. But he did it. Matter of fact, when I was in the party, when we had the office raided for the food and I had to find some other place for food -- JJ: ’Cause how many times was it raided, the Panther office? WR: Actually, I only remember two. There were more times than that, but these were the times that [00:21:00] the food was destroyed. So-- JJ: Okay, so, what’d you do then? WR: So, I mean, I can only say about the aftermath. I came in, and all I saw was eggs and meat spread all over the floor. And I think, the roof, there was a slight fire there. So, I had made a deal with the people at St. Dorothy’s, which, there was a white person there by then, that I used to keep the food there. Because they had 12 �coolers. And then just pick it up and drop it off at the breakfast programs until I could find some other place. But I used to store food at St. Dorothy’s, because of that. JJ: Okay. So, I wanna get into how you got the food there, but there was a raid. Was anybody hurt at it, how did that come about? WR: I’m not totally sure -- JJ: The first one (inaudible). WR: The raid that I can [00:22:00] talk about was the one that -- [Terry?] was in. I’m trying to think -- Terry [Mason?]. And actually, Terry Mason went to the same grammar school that I did. I remember it was eight of them, and I don’t remember -- I remember Terry was there, I remember [Shea?] was there. [Big Moody?], I think was there, and I don’t remember who the rest were. My understanding is that the police gained entry, and I’m still not clear about how they gained entry. I can assume that there was no OD on the door at the time. JJ: Now, we’re talking about a second story -- WR: We’re talking about on the second floor. JJ: On the second floor, sorry. And then we’re talking about a steel door (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) so they gained entry -- WR: And I’m not sure whether they gained entry from the door in the front or the door in the back. I don’t know if the door in the back was quite as strong as the door in the front. You know, there’s another [00:23:00] reality that you have to look at from the Panthers, and that is that we didn’t have everything to back up what we said. And, like I said, I don’t think the door in the back was as strong as the door 13 �in the front. Because I’m not sure how they gained entry. But once they did, they decimated the office. They arrested the young men, and they beat them up. Okay, now, we said a lot of things that should be, but we didn’t instigate. So, a lot of times, we ended up being on the tail-end of violence, because we did not instigate it. The point of the matter was, we were there to do the right thing, be the right thing, and show people what the right thing should [00:24:00] be. But we did not instigate a lot of what happened. And in many ways, we were not even in a position to protect ourselves. But that’s a whole nother situation. JJ: Okay. So, they came in and they beat up everybody? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Took ’em to jail. Right. Terry was actually in a coma for more than two or three weeks. I’m not even sure how long, because, when he came out of it, we didn’t have any more contact. And I remember Terry from -- we were in the same grade in grammar school. But I think Terry was trying to show everybody else that he wasn’t scared. And they beat him senseless. He was a little guy, a really little guy. [00:25:00] And I think his father was a doctor, or something, a dentist. JJ: So, what did they say, did they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) fight with him or something, or --? WR: I have no idea if they fought back. That’s something you need to talk to Shea about. Because I wasn’t there, I mean, this is secondhand information. And everybody told me a different story, because Terry was the one beat senseless. I remember Big Moody said, “Everybody just shut up, take it, we will be out of jail 14 �in a little while.” Terry wanted to be Superman, and he was beat senseless. I don’t think I interacted much with him after that. JJ: Okay. That was the first raid. The other one that you were -- WR: That might have been the second raid. JJ: It might have been the second? WR: Right. The first one -- JJ: And you said there were eight of them, these are the two that you -- WR: Oh, I didn’t say there [00:26:00] were eight, I said there were two that I knew of. JJ: Two of them that you knew of. WR: Right, right, I cannot count -- JJ: I stand corrected. (laughter) WR: Please, please, I don’t even know where you got that number from. JJ: I thought I had heard it somewhere. WR: Right, that’s like a rumor. JJ: Okay. (laughter) WR: Right, right, right. And I remember there was another raid that everybody was preparing for that didn’t happen. I remember seeing the movie with one or two people that I knew that are, you know, “We packing up for the raid,” you know, “we getting ready,” you know, everybody’s loading up, I don’t even know if that even happened. But there was another raid. I think that raid was -- I don’t think it did as much damage to the office as the one that I’m talking about. They just took some guys to jail. A lot of times, the situation was [00:27:00] to stop, harass, and jail. As many times as we had Panthers going to jail, it depleted 15 �resources. You know? So, it was more or less, you know, if you see yourself in a situation, best thing to do is shut up. So that it doesn’t become more serious than need be. But a lot of it depleted our resources because those people that were making contributions, they were used to get people out of jail. So that meant that there’s less money that I could do for the breakfasts. Which is another reason that we set the breakfasts up as a corporation, so that there would be other people involved other than Panthers. Although I let everybody know, it was Free Services Incorporated, we had the priest, we had a lawyer, Lucy Montgomery was on the board. JJ: [I remember Lucy, yeah?]. WR: Those are the ones that I can [00:28:00] remember. Jeffrey Haas, the lawyer, -- JJ: -- was on the board? WR: He was on the board, right. Those are the ones that I remember. But most of my interaction with the board people was probably me and the treasurer. Because we got checks made up, set up a bank account so that people could write checks to Free Services. It was incorporated and nonprofit. I didn’t understand the 501 process, and we never got to that, but we were still a nonprofit. Because, as I approached grocery stores, and people that had resources, the first thing they said is, “Who can I write a check to?” Well, you can’t say “The Black Panther Party.” I’m not even sure that we had a bank account at the time. So -- that was why the breakfast was incorp-- JJ: You mean the Panthers? WR: Right, that was why the breakfast was incorporated. 16 �JJ: -- [you were never incorporated?], were there (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? [00:29:00] WR: Huh? I’m not totally sure, [when I talked to Russ?], they very well might have been. JJ: Oh, they could’ve been, yeah. ’Cause (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). WR: Right, they very well could have been. JJ: [Definitely?] well-structured, yeah. MELANIE SHELL-WEISS: I’m going to ask you a question, how did you join the Panthers? Just to back up a bit. WR: I was at Circle. It was my first year at Circle. And, actually it was a perfect storm. 1968. There was a guy running Socialist Party ticket. Young Patriots used to hang out, there in the peer room. Plus, it was right after King had gotten killed in April. So, a lot of the stuff that was going on ’66, ’67, ’68, I was too young to be a part of. [00:30:00] So, when I got to the campus, and saw that there was another step, you know, it’s kind of like, “Okay.” And [Chuckles?] was at Circle. Chuckles was [Christine Amett?]. She was at Circle. Chuckles and I became friends. But the other thing is, while I was at Circle, I also had a dance group. And we had done two or three events. We were asked to do an event -We were on stage with some Panthers, and the other folks that were dancing backed out. And it ended up being me. So, originally -- let me back up, get the continuity straight. The dance kind of got us involved in doing some [00:31:00] more Black stuff. Also, Chuckles is at Circle. And she kind of challenged us to all come by the office, and at least come to one political education class. Once 17 �we came to one political education class, the other folks from the dance group were kind of backing off, but it was so mind-boggling to me, because it was kind of like the next step after [King?]. Because I still have that image in my mind, it would have been my last year in high school, it was ’68 when King got killed and the National Guard were lined straight down Cottage Grove. They were all standing there, weapons at the ready. And the whole image of this, I think riots probably broke out on the [00:32:00] west side. It didn’t on the South Side. But the image of the National Guard standing here with weapons ready to protect property never left me. So, here we are in September. I’m at Circle. I used to be a good student. I wasn’t that great a student at Circle. I had a French class and the instructor didn’t even speak English. And I was getting involved in more extracurricular activity, beside the dancing. There were some Black and white issues, but, actually, at Circle, there were more political issues. Because there was so many political issues being discussed. And I think the perfect storm is, everywhere you went, [00:33:00] everybody was asking you, “What are you doing to save the world?” You know? “Are you just going to school, are you just doing this, are you just doing that?” Until it was the climate. Then, like I said, with Christine Amett, with Chuckles being there, she looked like a little [gem?]. You know, she had the boots and the fatigues and, it’s like, “Oh, okay.” Go to one political education class. I went to a political education class, and the guy teaching it was, his name, we called him “Teach”. I’d never heard anybody so profound. It’s kind of like, “Oh, okay.” So, between Teach, and Chuckles, and disenchantment with -- there was also a priest. A priest on the South Side that 18 �was trying to make Ashland the division line to stop Black [00:34:00] folks from moving past a certain point, because of the white flight from Black neighborhoods. And, there was also an issue with contract buyers, which was actually in my neighborhood, just a little further down. Several Black folks had bought homes on a contract buyers-type thing, where, if you got behind two or three months, they put you out. They take your house. So, you’ve got all of these things, you know, operating, kind of percolating. It’s kind of a perfect storm. Then you have the Vietnam War. I was actually dating a guy at the time that was in -- He used to call me. I can’t think of the name of the co-- He was in Vietnam, but it was a city [00:35:00] in Vietnam, because he used to call me every Sunday. And there were guys that were coming back, that had a lot to say about the issues of Vietnam. Why were they there? And they couldn’t go downtown and eat a hamburger or go to, like, [Ronny’s Steakhouse?]. If you were downtown after a certain time, it’s kind of like, okay, nobody beating you up. But they’re basically letting you know that you’re not welcome. Because Vietnam was my era. So there was a lot of people that we knew between ’66 and ’68 that were going to Vietnam and were coming back thoroughly dissatisfied. Some were coming back drug addicts. Many were coming back missing limbs. And the whole issue was, “What are we fighting for?” So I think all of that [00:36:00] together is kind of like, it comes back to, “Okay, now what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?” And Teach put a lot of things in perspective. As we started to read about colonialism and international racism. So, it just seemed like, “My goodness, we can’t even live in this world unless we 19 �change it!” So that was my introduction to the Panthers, and I just kept getting further and further. Does that answer your question? Yeah. JJ: Okay, so -- Teach is doing PE classes, huh? How were they done? I mean, I remember -- was this at the church on the west side, or -- WR: No, this was at the office. JJ: [00:37:00] Oh, this was at the office. So how -- WR: This was at the office. JJ: How was that being done? I mean, what -- WR: Well, if you didn’t do your homework, it wasn’t being done. I mean, he’s kind of like, he’s teaching -- JJ: Okay. So he gave homework, is that what -- WR: Frantz Fanon, it’s like, you’re reading literature to put you up on. It was, Frantz Fanon, [it was?] The Wretched of the Earth, and -- JJ: You had to read it and you’d come back and report, or --? WR: We had to discuss it, we had to listen to him break it down. I would say that he was probably an actual teacher. You know? He was profound in a lot of the conclusions he drew. Talking about the struggle of Shea, talking about Frantz Fanon, talking about Marx and Lenin. Some issues I have with Marx and Lenin, but a lot of the other stuff, it was the reality when you, you know, began to define [00:38:00] classes and how people separate themselves. It was so much more history, and assessment, of world politics, than I’d ever heard. And I was a student. I was studious, I wanted to know. So I think that’s what piqued my interest, so -- And then, even studying the difference between a Marcus Garvey 20 �and a W. E. B. Du Bois. I mean, there’s so, so many struggles, and infighting, which, until you actually focus and become aware, it’s kind of like, you can look at the world and just pass through it, or you can look at the world and see the landscape. And it was kind of like, suddenly there’s a landscape [00:39:00] that I didn’t know existed, and an interpretation of the landscape, because you’re watching all of the other things happen. I don’t know if -- Of course as you get older, you see more in the landscape than you did. Okay? But that’s also looking back. You can always see more looking back. But, to even realize that, you know, you just don’t go through life bumping into stuff, sometimes you have to step back and look at how things are constructed. And see if there’s a way to deconstruct something, because racism -- Racism was so deep that it was a reality in a lot of people’s lives. You know? It’s the same thing as me going for an interview, and, you know, little white lady just putting my resume to the side. Or putting it in the [00:40:00] garbage. She didn’t beat me up. Nobody hung me. But all she did was to stop me from having an opportunity. And it goes down, just that small, to even larger things, but it’s a way of thinking, it’s a way of looking at things, it’s a way of interpreting things, and it’s a way of doing that people don’t even realize that they do. And, it’s like, I guess that’s institutionalized or internalized. And it’s looking at that, saying, “Well, how do you change that?” You’re gonna have to attack institutions, because they’re the ones that are teaching certain things. But it also goes deeper than that. And I guess after looking at all of that, it’s like, “Okay, there’s more. [00:41:00] There’s more to the iceberg than the tip.” So, are you gonna help change it? Are you just 21 �gonna be a part of it? And actually, the way I was raised, I pretty much didn’t have to pay attention to it. Because I think adults try their best to put you in situations where they will take the brunt of it. But at a certain point, everybody needs to step up. That’s just my opinion. JJ: Okay. So, you had all these things for the breakfast program, [where you said?], the office. All these things for the breakfast program, [they were?] -- WR: Used to be. In the office. JJ: Used to be in the office. WR: Uh-huh. JJ: Did you set up the Panther breakfast program? WR: Yes I did. JJ: Okay. And can you explain how you [started?] doing that? WR: It was really all by accident. Actually, [00:42:00] I sang in church. I think that summer, I sang at someone’s funeral. Someone I didn’t know. But she was close to my age. When I joined the Panthers, there was someone else that, we were supposed to be doing it together, [Barbara Sankey?] and I. Barbara wasn’t really that into it, but she could drive and I couldn’t. So, the first person that I met, I went to [AMP?]. It’s like, “Well, we may as well go to somebody that has food,” you know, “we’re not really sure what we should do,” what the approach was. I remember talking to Fred, like, “What am I supposed to do?” You know, “Do we call [the coast?], do they have a manual? I mean, how does this --” Anyway, we didn’t really get any instructions, but I went [00:43:00] to AMP. And, at this time, PUSH had made a big issue about there being -- 22 �JJ: Operation (inaudible) PUSH? WR: Operation P-- JJ: Jesse Jackson. WR: Wait, it wouldn’t have been Operation PUSH, it would’ve been Operation Breadbasket. JJ: Okay, Operation Breadbasket. WR: Had made a big issue about having middle management and corporate America. So, a lot of, like, Sears, and places like that, had community people. People that were supposed to deal with the community. So, the community person that I’d met for AMP, said he wanted to meet me in my office. He was the only person that ever came to the Black Panther office, you know. It turned out that I sang at his daughter’s funeral. I had no idea. You know? So, some things are by happenstance. But it was his daughter that had drowned, and I had sung at [00:44:00] her funeral. So he remembered me, I had no idea who he was. So, we started talking and he was the first one that I had talked to that even took me serious. And we went on his list. And he introduced me to other people. He introduced me to Daryl Grisham at Parker House Sausage. He introduced me to somebody over Pepsi-Cola, that we got him to pay another Sausage person, so that I could just pick up the food. We tried to arrange stuff so that -- I preferred not to take money directly, I would prefer to take the food, so, “You pay for this, let me go pick it up.” And it was [Hyman Johnson?], it was this guy, that actually introduced me to four or five other people that were [00:45:00] peers, and his situation, that actually got me started on, “These are the people I need to 23 �approach, this is what I need to do.” You know, writing a letter, doing whatever I needed to do, it was actually him that put me on to that, so that -- Let me see. The barbecue guy, [he used to even?] call if I was late -- Argia B. Argia B Bar-BQ. Parker House Sausage, Metropolitan Sausage. There was a Star grocery store over on the west side that -- They were just people that he introduced me to, and then I followed up, and just kept doing what I was doing till I got to the point, we were probably picking up, maybe, 4 or 500 dollars a week, worth of food, and then just dropping it off at the breakfast program. You know, [00:46:00] one or two of ’em, we could store it there. Others, like I said, I would pick up, I’d leave it at St. Dorothy’s and then drop it off there. This was the first place we had a breakfast program. JJ: At St. Dorothy’s? WR: No. Here. St. Dorothy’s, I’m saying, we had the stuff. JJ: Here? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: 1512 South Pulaski, Better Boys Foundation. JJ: Oh, Better Boys Foundation. This (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: This was the first place we had a breakfast program. Yes. JJ: And so, are they doing this every week, they’re doing a donation every week, or how is that -- WR: Every week. I’m begging every week. JJ: You’re begging every week? But is it the same storeowners, or --? WR: Many of them, it was a matter of just managing it, at a certain point. Okay, maybe some every other week, maybe some every week. Later on, there was a 24 �guy that -- [Sauk?]. Mortgage banking. I don’t even remember [00:47:00] where he came from. I remember having a conversation with him, and then going down to his office. I tried not to take money. I took money when money needed to be taken, but he had arranged for me, I’d pick up 90 dozen eggs. And he sent me somewhere to pick up 200 pounds of hamburger. That would be once a month. So it depends on what the donation was -JJ: So you had, like, a schedule from different people. WR: I had a schedule, and I just tried to work it that way, and keep extending it. But I begged everybody. The real reality, that it took me a minute to process, was when I approached Clement Stone. And I never even knew that I was talking to Clement Stone. JJ: Clement Stone? Okay. WR: We had set up a meeting at [00:48:00] [Stone and Brandale?]. I was talking to his guy -- JJ: Who was Clement Stone? Briefly. WR: Clement Stone was a multimillionaire. Little short white guy with a real strange mustache. JJ: McCormick Seminary was named after him, too. So, that seminary we took over. But ahead, (inaudible). WR: I don’t know how he made his money. But I know that it was Stone and [Brale?] - JJ: But you met with him. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: I met -- well, yeah. Yeah. He was in the room. 25 �JJ: For the -- okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: He was in the room, I was actually talking to his guy (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And, I think they deepened my commitment to do something for Black folks. Because, when I met with them, I had, you know, I put the corporation together. It was Free Services. And whoever I talked to always said, “This is an arm of the Black Panther Party,” but, you know, blah blah blah blah. And, [00:49:00] we were at a conference table, Clement Stone was sitting at one end, he never said anything. I didn’t even realize it was him, until later, when I saw him on an interview. And I’m like, “He was sitting there that whole time!” Anyway, [Woodward?] said, “Now, we can see funding your program. The problem here is that you are much too political.” Now, we’d been assisting youth groups like the Vice Lords, over on the west side. We gave them 100,000 dollars. JJ: But you were too political. (laughs) WR: We gave them 100,000 dollars. And, at that time, the Vice Lords actually had set up an office and were trying to do some stuff. He said, “Now, if --” JJ: (inaudible) WR: “Now, if you were into more gang activity, [00:50:00] extortion, or things like that, that we could justify rehabilitating, we can fund your program from year to year.” They offered 14 grand to fund the program, and I’m sitting here, like, just dumbfounded. I don’t believe that this white guy just told me that if we go out and extort or kill some Black folks, we can come back and get paid. Because this is, you know, I’m just sitting here, and I said, “Would you say that again?” 26 �You know, and I went and sat out, couldn’t sit in the car ’cause I couldn’t drive, I didn’t have a driver’s license. You know, I’m just dumbfounded, so -- “So, in essence, you will fund my program if we get involved in some illegal activities.” He said, “Yeah!” I was like -- (laughter) And I was just dumbfounded. I was really dumbfounded, because it was such a, you know -- [00:51:00] A lot of times, you know, you get folks blaming everybody for the condition, and, well, you know, “If I had the opportunity,” or, “This guy is stopping me from this, this guy is stopping me from that,” you’re kind of like, “Well, damn!” There’s a certain point where everybody needs to take responsibility for certain things they need to do. But then, you know, you sit back and, okay, he’s creating situations where you got Blackstone Rangers, and then you have the Gangster Disciples. South Side, southwest side. Then you got west side, Vice Lords. Okay, now, when they kill each other, the last man standing gets the money. So now, you have gangs that are fighting over white money. In order to be rehabilitated, [00:52:00] you got to be the baddest gang, you got to be the last one standing. But for him to overtly just say, “You know, if you were involved in more illegal activities --” I’m just sitting here, like, “I don’t believe you just made this offer.” And I think it really pushed me, if I had any doubt. JJ: So he wasn’t being facetious, he -- WR: He wasn’t being facetious. He was being for real. And, for a minute, it almost went over my head. Because that’s the other thing, too, is that, you know, this is my first time being an adult. Okay, I’m out in the world. I’m not that far away from -- I’m only 18! I’m not that far away from, you know, and I still have to go 27 �home and ask my mama for something, or else I won’t have nothing to eat. So this is the real world, this is the real world of how we make money, how we keep money, how we keep money away from other people, [00:53:00] or how we do business. This is the real world that I’ve never experienced. And, to listen to someone just say, you know, “This is our plan. We’ll rehabilitate you, but you got to kill s-- you got to do some bad stuff.” And I’m sitting here like, “You know, you never could have told me.” As other people had said, well, you realize that sometimes white institutions set up situations where Black people can destroy each other. And I went, “Y’all crazy.” But he’s telling me, you know, “You want the money, this what you got to do.” And it brought some things into vision. To see, not only that, but also I understood more with global economics, because there’s some stuff that Teach was saying that was [00:54:00] over my head, about how the British were playing the Indians against each other. And I understood how the British and the Dutch were playing tribal wars against each other. I didn’t understand that before, because nobody had ever said, “Here’s tribal wars, do it.” And, you know, “We’ll pay you off.” So it gave me a whole different perspective of what capitalism is, or, how it survives. Because it has to survive by division. But somebody has to be making money. And I never thought of people seeding money in order to create conflict. So, I mean, that gave me a whole different perspective. All of a sudden, it’s like, you know, it’s one of those moments of epiphany. It’s like, “Oh, okay. This is what the world is fighting over.” Because even, [00:55:00] you know, with so many regimes in Africa, that, even when you threw the Dutch out, or the French, or the English, 28 �you were still fighting over Western concepts. Because now, everybody got a color TV, and a Cadillac. They don’t want to go back to the huts. So now, you’ve got a people that are fighting over keeping this from, you know, and you have natural tribal wars, that, you know, “This my land, this your land, and we’re gonna fight over it till it can be --” But now, you’re fighting over Western values. And the division that has been created, you know, to even think about something like Rwanda. You know, with the Tutsis and the -- To even think about how long that division had been planted. [00:56:00] How many years it took to develop something like that. To think about how vicious the Dutch were. I guess, like I said, it almost went over my head until I just had this epiphany, and I’m sitting here, saying, “This man really said this.” So it created more vision, politically, to even see the politics at work. And what it takes in order to maintain the stability of capitalism, is to create unstability in many other spaces, so. That was my epiphany. JJ: Okay, now -- My understanding -- but you didn’t write any proposals, to get [money?]. WR: No. No. JJ: Did you do that on purpose, or --? I mean, it would’ve been easier just to write some [00:57:00] proposals -- WR: Well, first off, I didn’t know about proposals. Okay, so I didn’t know. I think these were the first people that presented a proposal to me. Now, I did write beg letters. That’s different. I wrote beg letters. “We’re doing this, we’re doing this, this is what we need, tell me where to pick it up.” Proposals, no. 29 �JJ: Okay, the reason I say that, I thought that I -- you know, we had a breakfast program, too, but we were trying to get as many businesses as possible to build a base, also, there. Were you also -- I mean, we were learning from you, so, I mean -- WR: Well, you know, by the time you all came for information, I had more. Because, when I first started, I didn’t even have a concept of what a proposal was. I could’ve written one, but I didn’t know. You know, I just thought you had to do a beg letter, show up, and somebody’d give you food. [00:58:00] So, it was a bitby-bit process, but I’d never got to the proposal stage. JJ: I mean, we didn’t write any proposals either. It was working very well, just going from store to store. Ma-and-pa store to ma-and-pa store, yeah. WR: More community-based. And I guess, like, the other thing was to have a bank account, and to have -- JJ: But you weren’t thinking ma-and-pa stores, you were thinking -- WR: Well, only because of my first introduction, which would have been back to Hyman at AMP. You know, that was an accident in and of itself, that he would be a kind of big shot at AMP and take me to other places like that. That was purely by accident. It wasn’t something that I would have figured out. That I had figured out. I might have figured it out later, but I didn’t figure it out then. So that was basically at his behest, [00:59:00] and the other thing that he would do is that we would go to AMPs in the city. He would go to the back, and just tear some labels off stuff, and say, “This damaged. You need to give this to them. This damaged.” So, how he set me up might have been to get merchandise that was 30 �damaged, or that was beyond its sell date, initially. And then after that, now with the guy at Pepsi-Cola -- and because I never really took money-money, if at all possible, I had them reinforce each other. There was another Black sausage company called Metropolitan. Well, I had the guy at Pepsi-Cola pay them, so that I could go there and pick up food. When we picked up food at any other place, [01:00:00] if the opportunity presents itself, don’t give me anything, give it to them, just let me go get the food. So, how they talked to each other, I don’t know. But I found that it was easier and appeared more legitimate to them for me not to -- I handled money, but I handled as little as possible. As little as possible. Most of the time I was just going to pick up food. There’s a lot that we did not get from neighborhood stores, because they were neighborhood stores, and they were only gonna do so much. And we were picking up [centers?], but, like I said, if it had not been for the very first guy that I talked to, I don’t think I could have gotten on that road so quick. MS: Why did you not want to handle the money? WR: Well, first place, I didn’t want anybody asking me for money. Which would have been folks in the [priory?]. And second off, my imagery is, if you see how far 50 [01:01:00] dollars can go, maybe you need to give up 100. Just let me have product. Product is the most important thing that I can have. And, 50 dollars, God, I remember somebody offered me 50 dollars, like, that’s not gonna do anything, why don’t you give that guy 50 dollars and see how much product I can get from that. Normally I could get more if I let them pay for it. That’s why. Plus, it was easier for nobody to ask me for any money, you know, because 31 �sometimes when I came back to the office, you know, everybody, “You get anything extra?” “I ain’t got no money.” So, we don’t have that issue, and then it made accountability a lot easier, because the priest that I had that was the treasurer, he was always nervous. Like I said, I pushed him beyond where he wanted to be, but he was still a good guy. He was a good guy. JJ: When you were setting up, did you only have [01:02:00] the breakfast program in one location, or --? WR: It started here. 1512 South Pulaski, and then we had one right down the street from the office, at a church. I cannot remember the name of the church. Then we had another one on the North Side, St. Dominic’s. Then we had one on the South Side, that the [Old Troop?] -- there was a group of fellas called the Old Troop, [Oba?], [Ade?], [Little Ide?], [Big Ide?], [Ogum?], and they were from the projects, Ida B. Wells. They set up something at the fieldhouse, where we had a breakfast program there. And then there was a breakfast program at a church, which, I’m not the one that initiated where they were. People from the Party would [01:03:00] go out and talk to folks. There was a church at 64th and Harvard. We had a breakfast program there. And we had a breakfast program -I think the name of the other church might’ve been St. Andrews, I can’t remember. I think there were two more that I can’t remember right this minute, but, at the point that I was backing away because I had gotten pregnant and I was about seven months pregnant, and they said I needed to sit down. I think I was doing about five or six. And it was still just, picking up stuff, dropping ’em off. 32 �JJ: So you [supplied it all?], basically. So that’s why you were trying to get more donations, where -- we just had one main program. Can you describe how the programs ran? WR: [01:04:00] Well, let me see. Get there at five o’clock. Make sure pots and pans are clean. We always had somebody on grits, somebody on meat, somebody on eggs. Drop the stuff off. Spark the kitchen up, by seven o’clock, at that point, the kids are coming in. Generally, the most important thing -- I guess it was two things. The food and the cook. Generally, there was always one person at each site that would actually be in charge of who’s gonna do what. And the kids came, the kids came slowly, but bit by bit. There was one person at each site. I remember [Ace?] was the one at the site over on the South Side. Because this was the first, [01:05:00] we were all there. The duties just got split up of what you had to do. Because, mostly, the men would be the one that would be serving and greeting the kids. And we would be back in the kitchen. Normally, at least three, four people in the kitchen. I still remember, we would get a ride from the South Side. And it was O’Neil. O’Neil would pick up me, and -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the police -- the informant, the informant. WR: Right. Me and [Sam?] -- JJ: The informant that set up the whole thing where -- WR: Fred’s murder. JJ: Fred’s murder, yeah. WR: Right, right. But O’Neil was the one that would pick us up, because we were south, pick us up and take us to one of the breakfast programs. And then I would 33 �be at the breakfast program, and from there, I would go to the office. Find someone to drive me. And then be out in the street the rest of the day. [01:06:00] Picking up, calling, doing whatever I needed to do. I had a South Side place I would call from, and that would be at Sammy Rayner’s office. At the time, he was an alderman. And his office would pretty much be the one I would work from. Making calls, either there or else at the Panther office. JJ: Oh, he let you use your office, Sammy Rayner? WR: Yes. Sammy was a good guy. JJ: Okay. What about the kids? I know in ours, we had songs and [that?]. Did you do any type of education with them, or? (inaudible) [the staff doing that?]? WR: I didn’t interact with the kids a lot. JJ: [Okay. What else?]? WR: But the kids, we didn’t do political education classes with kids. We did sing songs. Okay, we would do like, “The revolution has come,” [01:07:00] you know, they would do that and there was -- JJ: “Time to pick up the gun,” that’s -- WR: There you go. JJ: That’s political. WR: There you go. JJ: Isn’t that political? That’s -- WR: Well -- JJ: (inaudible) our nation, isn’t it? 34 �WR: I think it could be all of the above, but when I say “no political education classes,” the information wasn’t there yet. JJ: Okay. WR: You know, now, we would get, sometimes, the kids’ parents coming to political education class, where you can get information. You know, just doing, singing songs, I mean -- JJ: So the parents were aware that their kids were singing [songs?] WR: Parents were aware. Some parents would walk their kids there. JJ: So they wanted (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Right. ’Cause I didn’t look at that song any different than I did Motown. You know? It’s kind of like, it’s just a song. (laughter) Okay? Now, at some point, you need some depth. Because most of the kids that came were young kids. I rarely saw big kids. I saw more kids, I’d say, from fourth grade and under. Doesn’t mean that there were [01:08:00] no big kids, but most of the time, they would be young kids. ’Cause, I think a lot of the big kids didn’t want to admit that they didn’t have breakfast at home. And we were in the projects. We were in poor neighborhoods. And also, for the west side, if I had an overflow of product that we didn’t want to sit over the weekend, we would go into Rockwell Gardens and give it away. Like, I remember one time, you know, some donations I didn’t know what to do with. You know, if you get 200 loaves of bread, you just can’t sit on it, for, you know, four or five days. So, whatever overflow we had, we would give that away. 35 �JJ: In some of the projects, I know we did that too. Okay so, there was some song, the parents got involved -- WR: Some parents walked their kids -- there’s a lot of parents that at least came to see who we were and what we did. [01:09:00] Okay? And, for some parents, it made them come because we had a South Side office, who would come and sit in on some classes. The political education classes were, in many ways, particularly if Teach was teaching, they were over a lot of people’s heads. Because I had a lot of people say, “I could care less about who Frantz Fanon is. Or who Marx and Lenin is. But if y’all are doing this to help us out, we want to be a part of it.” So, in some ways, you know, some of the intellectual classes kind of turned people away, because everybody wasn’t there yet. But the actual doing what you do, is entirely different, and I think the party had to move beyond [01:10:00] Teach, and some other folks started teaching classes, maybe, that could relate more to the community, because I remember several people, you know, writing stuff down, some people, “What kind of shit is this? What does this mean? What is lumpenproletariat?” You know, and I’m like, “You don’t know?” (laughter) You know. But that was a profundity to Teach. But he was a true intellectual, and he was a committed intellectual. A lot of the stuff, we ended up getting in our own way, and realizing that we needed to break it down, because we were not a lumpenproletariat. We were the ghetto. It’s the same thing, but nonetheless, somebody needs to understand what you’re saying. I know I had to correct a lot of that. And talk to folks -- JJ: So you called lumpenproletariat the ghetto. 36 �WR: Pretty much. It’s poor folks. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Poor folks. WR: [01:11:00] Right, right. JJ: And so -- WR: You know, when you talk about “class struggle,” you know, what is class struggle? Well, in many ways, this is intellectual, but you have an elite that’s trying to be sure that they maintain being an elite. You have working-class. Well, what is working-class? What is middle-class? The things that we considered middle-class really were not in the [realm?]. Making 30,000 dollars a year does not make you middle-class. Making 50,000 dollars a year does not put you in the elite. You know? It’s kind of like you need to define what owning the means of production really means. Do we have factories? Are we producing this? Is this within our grasp? Are we making decisions about embargoes and taxes? I mean, let’s get real with exactly who we are. And it’s interesting, when people call folk petite bourgeoisie, [01:12:00] what does that mean? Why, ’cause you got something at Carson’s? So, there’s terminology that we needed to put in the language of the neighbors. JJ: So why are we discussing this, then? The class struggle and all that, what was the purpose of that? WR: Well, I think that was actually the whole basis of the Party. The Party was still steeped in a Marxist-Leninist type of credo. But I think the basis was -- The basis was racism. But we’re still talking about class. And I think -- JJ: You guys were talking about power, too. You mentioned power. 37 �WR: Well, but that’s what class is. JJ: Was that what -- okay. What do you -- WR: There’s always somebody at the top. JJ: What do you mean, that’s what I’m trying to say. WR: [01:13:00] I guess, I’m thinking of a Spike Lee movie. School Daze. And in the Spike Lee movie, you had the good-hair people, the bad-hair people, the fraternities, the people that were not in the fraternities, you had -- this is all in a college milieu. You had the people from the town, and the people from the college, and all of these people separated themselves. Because the good-hair people thought they were the shit. The bad-hair people thought they were the shit. The light-skinned people, the dark-skinned people. The town people thought that the college people were not speaking to them. The Kappa people [01:14:00] thought the other people had no sense. So here you are, people separating themselves into specific classes. And not looking at the bigger issue, that there is a bigger issue. And there’s a lot of times that Black folks, in and of themselves, create class. Part of it is color. Light skin versus dark skin versus in the middle. Part of it money. You know, when we moved into Chatham, we moved out of a certain neighborhood that was still struggling. But what people didn’t see is those living in Chatham, everybody in my household was working. Two people at the post office, one person doing day work. You know, everybody’s scufflin’. But we are viewing class as in, but we’re not in the projects. We’re one step up. And then the next step up, [01:15:00] maybe a business owner. And then the next step up. But the creation of class, which is 38 �something that Marx talks about, creates the divisions, so that an elite can maintain power. Because by us being divided or suspicious of each other, we never look at, but all the money’s going up. That’s what I look at as class. Everybody always said, “Power to the people,” but I always think it’s more “People to the power”. But that’s what socialism is. JJ: More people to the power? What do you mean? WR: Right. JJ: What do you mean? WR: More people that control those things that define your livelihood. JJ: The power, okay. WR: Right. Okay? Power’s not always money. It’s ownership, it’s [01:16:00] producing goods. Distributing goods. Power is synonymous with being able to control the resources. That basically is what it is, is resources. JJ: So, who controls the resources? WR: You’re asking me? JJ: No, I’m asking you, is that what you’re saying, it’s about who controls the resources? WR: Yes. Yes. JJ: Okay. WR: Yes. JJ: And so, now getting back to the ghetto, and the lumpen, why didn’t you mention ghetto and lumpen before? 39 �WR: I don’t know, it just hadn’t come up. Conversation has to flow. (laughter) I mean, the conversation has to flow! JJ: [I’m starting with the ghetto?] -- WR: Right, it needs to flow, and it just hadn’t come to that point in the river. Maybe it was something that was understood. JJ: Okay. But you did mention that with pride, the ghetto, or something. WR: Yeah. I ain’t got a problem with it, I live in the ghetto. Right. Every day. JJ: [01:17:00] Okay. So you were talking about power to the ghetto, instead of power -- I don’t know what you were saying. (laughter) WR: Now you’re confusing me. JJ: Okay, I’m confused. WR: Yes, sir. JJ: Okay. What are some of the community issues? What did you look at as community issues? That the Panthers in Chicago were working on. Any specific issues, or did you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? WR: I think the medical clinic is probably one of the most industrious things that the Party ever could’ve done. You know, to take the issue of healthcare out of insurance, and out of those that make money, and just say, “Healthcare should be a right.” The fact that they even brought sickle cell anemia [01:18:00] to the forefront. To say, “This is not just something that happens here, this is something that is worldwide. This is something that is -- and it’s obviously racerelated.” Just the whole issue of healthcare, because, I mean, now, 40, 50 years later, when you look at the issue of healthcare being, you have people that have 40 �lost their homes on being sick. Because they can’t afford to pay. You have insurance companies that are -- I mean, the rate of healthcare is unreal. Healthcare should be a right. That’s my opinion. The thing about the breakfast program, I think, wasn’t quite as up-front as the health clinic, but I think it’s a point to say, [01:19:00] “Why should anybody be starving, in a country that has plenty? Why can’t those resources be allocated so that there is no one that goes hungry, and no one that goes without healthcare?” You know, these things should be rights. The things that public aid instituted just with food stamps, and that kind of stuff, why can’t people just walk in and get something to eat? Why should anyone be hungry, with all of the resources that are available? And that goes not -- you know, see, we can only address the urban issues. But when you go, Appalachia, when you go down to some places in southern Illinois, when you go to small towns, you know, we’re addressing an urban issue that is really a people issue of [01:20:00] not allocating resources to assist those that need them. Or, when you do assist those in need, then you make them feel like they’re a drain on you. When it shouldn’t be. You know, when you go downtown, you go behind restaurants, you see people throwing out food that somebody could have been eating. And it was really -- The first time I went to New York, this is much later, I was working on a paper for school. It was the first time, and that had to have been close to 30 years ago, the first time that I had ever seen homeless people waiting for public buildings to open up. ’Cause I had to go to a library or something, and it was this whole line of homeless folks, which, bit by bit, it’s started to become a reality in a lot of the urban situations, 41 �where they’re waiting for public [01:21:00] facilities to open up, so that they can go in, and wash up, and sit around in the heat, and be there all day. Because they had nothing else to do. And I don’t think anybody can tell me that homeless people prefer to be homeless. You know? I don’t understand, in a land of plenty, why resources are not allocated to say that nobody needs to live on the street. Nobody needs to sub-exist. Nobody needs to not have medical attention if that’s what’s required. So, I think that was one thing. The issue of the Party -JJ: Was it on a national level, or local, too? WR: What? JJ: The health issue. WR: I would say that -- JJ: Were you speaking nationally, or? WR: I would say nationally. JJ: Nationally, okay. WR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: So at that time, the Panthers were already [01:22:00] talking about a health issue. WR: Well -- JJ: Today, [though?], it’s a big thing. With the presidential campaign and that. But this was [done?] at that time, it was being discussed at that time. WR: Right. JJ: All right, what were you gonna say? [I didn’t?] -- WR: I don’t know. We need to move on. I get old, I forget. 42 �JJ: Okay, so what was the office like, I mean, you went to the Panther office on the west side, or? There was one on the South Side, too, right? WR: Right. Now, I can’t go into depth on the office, because I was out on the street more. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) MS: Where were the offices? I don’t think we have that on the record yet, so if you could [tell me?] -- WR: 2350 West Madison. I only came in the office to drop off stuff or to make phone calls. JJ: What was the purpose of the office, I mean --? WR: Purpose of the office is, it’s a distribution point of people. Okay? You have political education classes going on, I mean, [01:23:00] it’s where people are meeting, calling, doing whatever they need to do. You have to have a focal point of, where do you meet? Where do you get your marching orders? I mean, the office was the office. You know, for me, all I needed to do was to make phone calls, and then go out and beg some more. The office on the South Side was on 35th Street. It was about, either 223 or 225 East 35th Street. But the office was a focal point to meet, to have classes, to have discussions, to have your marching orders of what you needed to do, central place where the papers came, another reason I didn’t go to the office, stay at the office, is because if they caught me, I’d have to sell newspapers. (laughter) And I’d rather be -- and, you know, when they caught me, I sold newspapers. If you didn’t, you know. [01:24:00] But newspapers was also our only way of survival, ’cause I think you 43 �got a nickel off of each newspaper. So, I mean, it’s still a central point, you know, everybody needs to have a central point to coalesce and define the business of what you needed to do. JJ: What do you mean, “the only way of survival”? Now, you’re still a student, no? WR: No. JJ: Oh, you had dropped out, or you [had?] completed -- WR: Oh, you talking about when I was in the Party? JJ: Yeah, when you were in the Party. WR: When I was in the Party, I dropped out. Right, I think I got through two semesters of Circle, and I dropped out. I went back to school later. But, as far as Circle was concerned, I flunked out. JJ: Did you [finish it?] later, or no? WR: Yes, I did. I went to Loyola. I went to school at night. So I ended up with a master’s from Loyola. But I had a lot of issues there. Nothing like being an exPanther. JJ: What do you mean? WR: When I started working at Loyola, the [01:25:00] FBI came on campus, came to the dean’s office, “Do you know who you have here?” But I put it on my application. I don’t [need that lying on mine?]. JJ: You put, what, Panther, in your -- WR: No, it said, “Have you been involved -- What was your last job?” I was a Black Panther, that’s what I did! (laughter) That’s what I did. JJ: So, [no wonder you’re?] -- 44 �MS: And what year was that? WR: It had to have been 1971, or ’72. It was one of those years. JJ: Yeah, that would make the FBI come. (laughs) WR: Well, I think they were coming anyway, I don’t know. But it’s like, because I was working in a minority program, an EOP program, which, you know, that was something else. It was EAP and EOP programs almost on every college campus right after King got killed. JJ: Briefly, what is [that?]? WR: Educational Opportunity Program. At Circle, it was Educational Assistance Program. JJ: What did that do? WR: It was supposed to take in [01:26:00] inner-city kids that perhaps would not have been able to come through regular admissions, and give them an opportunity to go to school. JJ: Okay, so, you were working doing that? WR: That was my first job, with an EOP program. And the dean’s office was mostly white, but the guy that I was working with was Black. And, the thing about the EOP program was it was supposed to -- we would have classes. I had classes teaching people how to take notes. We’re taking Black kids out of high schools, that all they had was general math. Maybe they don’t know how to write. We had some that even were at a reading level below fifth grade. I have no idea how they got through high school. I have no idea why they aspired to go to college. But it’s not that they’re dumb, they just [01:27:00] have not had all of the 45 �educational tools that’s gonna put them in a situation, “Here we are at Loyola.” I remember showing somebody how to take notes, they didn’t even have a concept, that I’m supposed to listen to somebody and write down what they saying? Why? It wasn’t that important. So, that’s another disaster at many levels, and that is the educational system of moving some kids along that actually could have done more, if they had [ever?] been challenged to be more. There’s a lot of kids that we helped, there’s a lot of kids that we couldn’t save. Because just being on a college campus, at a college level, with other college students, and not being prepared. [01:28:00] You know. Like I said, we had some kids that weren’t even past fifth grade reading level. Which, even if they didn’t get the math, if you can read, you can pretty much get through anything. If you can’t read, you’re at a disadvantage immediately. So, that was an EAP program at Circle, which I was aware of it, and tried to help some of the folks there. Which was another thing that, you know, you’re looking at kids that don’t have a clue. They only have a dream. And there was no supportive stuff in place to help them get through. So, in ’68, there was, like -- (audio cuts) The EAP program there took over 1,000 kids, [01:29:00] because all of the colleges were doing this. King got killed, our kids aren’t getting educated, blah blah blah blah. Within three semesters, there were only 120 left. I flunked out too. And I could have done the work. I can imagine how difficult it was for somebody not to have had enough exposure to be able to do the work. And this was happening in many situations until, by the time I started working at Loyola, I think they had more supplemental classes in place. That they would start assisting and walking the kids through 46 �what they needed to do to survive in school. Because, it wasn’t no joke. You know, you can’t write a paper, saying, “I agree with you. [01:30:00] What else do I need to say?” That’s not a paper. So. JJ: So, some lessons are, the supplemental, I mean, for those kids. You’re saying that the more supplemental programs, they’d assist them, or? WR: Right, right. JJ: [That?] assisted them? WR: This is beyond the Panthers. I mean, this is my life after the Panth-- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Right. Supplemental programs, like teaching them how to take notes, vocabulary, reading, that’s basically all that I worked with. Teaching them how to read, teaching them vocabulary, teaching them how to take notes. Like I said, if you get through those, you can almost do anything. If you can’t read, it’s a moot issue. And a lot of the reading issues was vocabulary. JJ: Okay, so what were you studying there? WR: Poli sci and history. JJ: What is that? [01:31:00] Poli -- WR: Political science and history. JJ: Oh, [sorry?], political science and history. And that’s what you got your master’s in? I don’t know. WR: I got a master’s in urban studies. Like, public administration. MS: And what year did you get your master’s? 47 �WR: It’s either ’77 or ’78, I don’t remember what -- I graduated in ’75, so I got the master’s in ’77. JJ: Do you have any more follow-up on that? ’Cause I’m not even familiar with that. (laughs) MS: With urban studies [and public?] administration? JJ: With the master’s, I don’t know what that -- But -- WR: It’s just school. I mean, I liked school, so it was not a bad environment to be in. You know, I liked school. Everybody has some things that, you know, I was good at school. That’s all. [01:32:00] And, I guess in every situation that you’re in, you began to see the politics of it. The elitism of it. You know, those that are here, those that are here. Actually, David Protess was one of my instructors. He’s the one that was at Northwestern with the wrongful conviction. I think it was his class that actually did some, you know -- I had some good instructors, and then, you know, you just have the regular, you know, white guy with a doctorate, just doing what he does. Trying not to go too far out the box. These are the things we teach, and if you don’t know it, it’s not my fault. JJ: Now, you mentioned that the FBI [01:33:00] came to the campus. That’s what they call “repression,” right? So, what kind of repression was the Panthers in Chicago under? Could you describe that a little more? WR: It’s hard to describe it, because it became a natural way that we were functioning. But we were harassed, we were stopped, we were searched. We were constantly being arrested for very simple things. I remember, there was a 48 �guy that was running for alderman on the Gold Coast. His name was John -Can’t think of his last name. MS: Sorry, I’m gonna pause for one se-- (audio cuts) WR: He was running for alderman, and this had to have been the first part of [01:34:00] 1969. It must have been around January or February or something like that. I’ll think of his last name, I just can’t think of it. Anyway, he’s running for alderman on the North Side, which encompasses Cabrini, but also the Gold Coast. John Stevens, that was his name. JJ: Oh, John Stevens, yeah. WR: And he came to us to ask us to be poll watchers. So, you know, everybody put on their, you know, little black beret and our combat boots, and we’d go -- I’d never seen anything like this before. And I’d never really been a part of the socalled “political system,” ’cause I’d just gotten old enough to vote. We were pollwatching. And, here we are in Cabrini. We saw big white guys, Irish guys, getting out [01:35:00] of limousines, coming into the polls, going behind the curtain, telling people how to vote. They actually had a list. I’d never seen anything like this before. I’ve never seen it since. They had a list where they actually had those people that were on welfare, where, you know, “If you don’t vote this way, we don’t know when your check is going to come.” You know, “Blah blah blah blah blah, let me help you vote.” Any protest that was happening, we got arrested, I got arrested twice. They took us out of the poll for interfering with the process of voting. But these guys were coming in, I’m like, “I can’t believe this! They are coming into the polls, going behind the curtain, showing 49 �people how to vote.” And the unfortunate thing is that you had so many people in Cabrini, and this is after the fact, this is 10 or 15 years after the fact, that I actually was reading some anthropology, [01:36:00] some history, and that kind of stuff, where they were actually talking about the next Great Migration of a lot of Black folks from the South into urban areas. Which probably would have picked up a lot of folks from Robert Taylor, from Cabrini, and that kind of stuff. You have a lot of people coming into the city, in an urban environment for the first time. They were told, you know, “You don’t have a job, you need to go get on welfare,” that kind of stuff. So you’ve got this going on, and then you’ve got guys that they actually have a welfare list. And they’re telling these folks, who don’t have any skills, you know, who are coming here trying to figure out, “How am I gonna live, how am I gonna do --” We have you on our list. This is how you need to vote. You couldn’t have told me that this would’ve happened in the city. I thought maybe something like that, you know, maybe King went through that, [01:37:00] maybe that happened in Montgomery. But, to actually, in 1969, to be in Chicago and to see people come in and just say, “You are on the welfare list, you vote wrong, we’re gonna put you off.” And then, when the police came, they took us. Now, there was a big issue over at the church, which I had to -JJ: Were you, like, kind of protesting them directly at that time? WR: We were poll watchers. JJ: Oh, you were poll wa-- WR: We were supposed to say that, “This is inappropriate, you were doing blah blah blah blah blah, we gonna call the police,” we call the police, and the police come 50 �and take us. Okay, we gonna call the Board of Elections. The Board of Elections called the police, and the police come and take us. Over at St. Dominic’s Church, my understanding, is that Fred was over there, and he got in an argument with one of these big guys. And the guy pulled out a pistol. JJ: On Fred Hampton? WR: On Fred. This was the [01:38:00] voting process. And the police came and took Fred away. You know, “You are impeding in the voting process,” you know, what do you call it when you’re creating a ruckus? And -- JJ: Mob action, or something? MS: Disturbing the peace. JJ: Disturbing the peace, yeah. WR: Disturbing the peace, and something else. You know, they might have held Fred long, they didn’t hold us long, they just took us to the police station to take us out of that situation. And then when we came back, it was the same thing, and I, you know, I’m saying I saw limousines drive up! They blocked the street, got out of limousines, came into the voting place, and said, called off names, “You are here, you are here, you are here. If you want to keep your, then you better vote this way.” And I’m like -- JJ: I mean, they said this out loud --? WR: Yes! Yes! JJ: They didn’t say it quietly to them, they said (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: No, ain’t no whispers. Ain’t no whispers. I’d never seen anything like that before. JJ: And then -- 51 �WR: [01:39:00] I’m not sure if it could function -- Well, I guess, you know, like, for the projects, it probably functions well, because you got people in a contained environment, and you can go right there and they just call names down. JJ: And then they can lose their house, their apartment, at the projects. I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Well, mostly what I heard was, they might lose their welfare check. Now, I don’t know, that could have been a threat too. That’s not what I heard. What I heard is, “You are on the list and you could lose your welfare check.” JJ: And you got arrested, do you remember what you were charged with, or? WR: We were never charged with anything, we were just pulled out of the situation, taken to the police station, and we have to sit around until somebody said, “Okay, you can go.” And then we went back, and we got arrested again. Until the end of the day, when the voting process was over, and this was the voting process. I’m like, “Oh my goodness!” JJ: Who was the other [01:40:00] candidate, do you remember, or? WR: I do not remember. Obviously, he’s the one who won. JJ: Yeah. (laughter) He’s -- WR: Obviously. JJ: He was with the machine. WR: He’s the one that won, and this was with the old Daley. But it was John Stevens who was running. JJ: Oh, the old Daley. WR: Yeah. 52 �JJ: Yeah. [Old American?]. WR: It was John Stevens that was running. And I think he probably maintained a livelihood as an activist, pretty much, so. But that left an indelible mark, too, about racism, just how deep it goes. And then about classism, and that is what people do to maintain power. And it’s scary. It’s scary that [almost is?], you know, that’s an instance of repression, but I think that we thought, if we were in enough situations where [01:41:00] people would see the contradictions, and the realness of not only what they don’t have, but what they should have, that it would make a difference. At the same time, I think youth got in the way. Because, in many ways, I don’t think we were showing people something they hadn’t seen. Because I think about the many things that my parents might have protected me from. It’s not like -- Racism wasn’t a secret. You know, you live with it. And in many ways, parents would put themselves in front of you as often as possible. So, you know, there’s a thing of youth, that we’re saying, “Well, we just wanna show you how bad it is.” It’s kind of like, “Wait a minute, there’s a lot of folks out here that know how bad it is.” But the next point is, can you stand [01:42:00] up to it? And push it back. And that was the reality, is that we just kept standing. So, at that point, you know, the police had to push back. They had more firepower. They had to push back, because we didn’t step back, as a lot of our parents might have stepped back, we weren’t stepping back. But we weren’t meeting them in firepower, we’re meeting them in moral power. And, you know, the reality is, like I said, I don’t think that we exposed things that our parents were not aware of. I think that that was what they were trying to keep us 53 �from. So. But yes, you know, there was unfairness, there was repression, there was -JJ: What other sorts of repression? [That was a?] -- WR: [01:43:00] I’m not sure we’re getting that, [either?], I mean, repression is to bleed your resources. JJ: Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Or to physically abuse you. I don’t know any other type of repression. You know, and -- JJ: I think I missed that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: And bleeding our resources is what they were doing. JJ: [And they’re?] misusing their [word, obviously, or?]? WR: [What?]? JJ: (coughing, inaudible) I mean, you know, what I meant was arrest. What other reasons (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Right, well, and see, arrest, to me, is bleeding your resources. Because -- JJ: Okay. [That’s what you’re?] (inaudible)? WR: Right. That’s what I mean by constantly arresting people. Here we are, calling for money to get out of jail. Okay, they bleed your resources that you could have done something else with. And then, the physical abuse. Although they didn’t beat everybody up, you didn’t have to. You know, a lot of it is just bleeding [your?] resources. JJ: I meant harassment, [I got?] harassment in between [the two?]. So (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 54 �WR: Yeah. There’s harassment, you know, there’s, “I know who you are, I know what you do, I’m watching you.” I was -- JJ: [01:44:00] That’s what I mean, more like harassment. WR: Right. I was picking up a bunch of food with somebody from the Young Patriots, because Fred told me I needed to ride around with them and show them what I do. We had stuff that we had left in the car. We were on South Chicago. We got out the car to go across the street, we were on our way to Rayner’s office for me to make more calls, [and I get?] pickups. When we came out of the office, they had broken into the car and taken the food out. And, you know, two white guys with their little funny, funny hats on, waved at us as they passed, as we were coming across the street. They’d just busted in the car and taken the food out, and they just waved at us. But those things, we expected, so it was hard to really, it’s like -- [01:45:00] It’s repression, but it was an expectation. Because like I said, we had put ourselves in a situation where we would not back down. And I think in many ways the police were trying to create a situation for us to back down. And the other thing is that, you know, we’re still kids. So, I don’t think that we were realizing that we shouldn’t have been arguing with the police. We were supposed to be arguing with the president of the United States. Not the police. Because they’re only tools. You know, most of them didn’t have the education we had. They didn’t even know what, they were just doing marching orders. And the unfortunate thing is that we didn’t get past that. Because they were the frontline of the ruling class. So, the police began to make it personal when it wasn’t personal, it was political. You know, it’s [01:46:00] the way the 55 �country is run, it’s the system of capitalism. It’s the whole thing of racism, it’s all of these things. But they’re the frontline that are pushing us back. And they weren’t really the enemy. It was so many more things that were the enemy, and somehow we got caught out, so that some police were taking it personal. And some Panthers were taking it personal, and it’s kind of like, you know, these guys are gonna go home to a family and scuffle the same way that we are. But you’ve got somebody that owns a corporation that’s going to cut off 5,000 jobs tomorrow. That’s who the enemy is. You’ve got somebody that owns a corporation, McDonald’s, that is gonna push the issue for the war to continue in Vietnam. [01:47:00] You’ve got somebody that owns a corporation that is global. They’re trying to set up, that’s who the enemy is, and it’s trying -- but the thing about it is that we can’t get to the real deal, because of the little deal. So, you know -JJ: This is your personal opinion, or has that been discussed among some of the Panthers after that? WR: This was a discussion. I mean, this was a discussion, this is all part of colonialism. This is all part of classism. This is all part of the lumpenproletariat versus the elite. This is all part of that picture. But I’m saying it was reaching the point that where it was becoming personal between police and Panthers. And that was not it. What the guy said is, “We were too political.” You know, this is educating ourselves to see [01:48:00] the whole big picture instead of just looking at the bush. But, that’s not to say the police weren’t repressive. And the interesting thing is that the Afro-American Police League. 56 �JJ: Patrolmen’s League, yeah? WR: Huh? JJ: Patrolmen’s League, or Police League, [whatever?]. WR: Right, right. And I have since done a lot of things with Howard Saffold. I didn’t know [Reggie?], Renault, that well, but I’ve since done a lot of things with Howard Saffold over the years. And he was saying that even during the days of the Panthers, that they were trying to refuse being put in situations to run tail on the Panthers. He said, “These are just young brothers meeting trying to figure out, how can we do it better? What else can I say?” Which was part of their [01:49:00] issue too. But the other thing in talking about policemen was that, we were not always defining them by color, we were defining them by mindset. You know, when there’s those that they bought into it, you know, “These are bad people, they are talking against the government, they are talking about socialism.” Or somebody else said, “Well, you know, if socialism means reorganizing the resources, what’s wrong with that?” So. The police were having a lot of internal struggles. Which was interesting, like I said, that time period was a perfect storm of so many other things that were going on at the same time. That it was kind of hard not to be about something. I’m kind of tired of talking. JJ: Just, one more thing. (laughs) And then we’ll do some final thoughts. Just, ’cause you mentioned the Young Patriots, [01:50:00] and Fred, asking you to take ’em along, to show ’em how you do the breakfast program because, is that what you were trying to do, or? 57 �WR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so, how was the Rainbow Coalition received? WR: I think we all looked at it -- I can’t say “we all”. I looked at it as, “This is the way the world should be.” I was a little tepid about -- JJ: Was it a big thing, or, I mean, how was it? WR: It wasn’t a big thing. It was just the next step. Because, it’s really what all of the stuff at PE classes, that’s all that it was pointing toward. You know, everything was pointing toward, “We’re not looking at color, we’re looking at mindset. We’re not looking at color, we're looking at capitalism. We’re not looking at color, we’re looking at socialism.” So, it was all moving toward that to begin with. So it [01:51:00] really wasn’t a big deal, it was kind of an expectation. I was a little tepid at first, although I only had one or two interactions with the Young Patriots, because I saw the Young Patriots on campus at Circle. And I don’t remember them embracing Black folks. They were young, poor, white kids, Appalachian whites, off the North Side, which I had never even been to the North Side. You know, there’s a lot of times when you grow up that you’re kind of stuck in the neighborhood that you’re in, ’cause that’s all you know. And at Circle, I think -but then I think everybody is kind of clannish, until they get in a situation that they need to interact. So I had remembered seeing them at Circle. But I didn’t meet any until I was in the Party. And then, when we talked, it’s like, “Oh, okay.” You know, it’s that whole thing of, “Okay, [01:52:00] he’s human.” You know. JJ: [Did you see?] any Young Lords or anything, either? WR: Hmm? 58 �JJ: Did you see any Young Lords or anything? WR: I’m saying, when I met them -- JJ: Did you see any Young Lords? WR: I saw you all coming and going, I didn’t interact. I always remember the red [tams?]. JJ: They were purple. Purple, see, you didn’t remember -- WR: I just remember the red tams. JJ: The purple tams. WR: Purple tams, I’m sorry. JJ: Oh, sorry. The red was the Blackstone Rangers, but, eh -- WR: They were purple, okay. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) purple. WR: I saw you coming and going. Most of the time, you all were meeting, like with central staff, with Fred, with that kind of stuff. I didn’t have any personal interaction, ’cause I was still -- JJ: [But we?] weren’t at the office, we would just come to the office, I mean -- WR: Right. ’Cause I was still getting in and out of the office, I’m trying not to sell no newspapers, if at all possible. (laughter) And that’s the truth, if at all possible. JJ: Okay, but you knew that we had existed with the Rainbow Coalition and that. WR: I knew about that. We discussed it in PE classes. [01:53:00] Fred always talked about the coalitions that he was building. I interacted a few times with Poison and Bob Lee. Okay. And I knew that that was their particular function, was 59 �going out and seeing like-minded people, trying to bring folks together. Bob Lee -JJ: So that was their assignment, [that?] --? WR: That was what they did. That was what they did. You know who I’m talking about. JJ: Oh, yeah, no -- WR: Bob Lee? JJ: -- Poison and Bob Lee, yeah. So, okay, that was their assignment, but -- WR: They were field marshals. JJ: Field marshals, right. Okay. (inaudible) But was that discussed in the Party -- WR: It wasn’t discussed -- JJ: -- the establishing of the Rainbow Coalition, or? WR: It wasn’t discussed blow-by-blow, it was discussed as a natural evolution of, “This is what we need to [01:54:00] do in order to continue doing what we do.” So, like I’m saying, it wasn’t anything unusual, it was a natural progression. That we need to align ourselves with like-minded white folks, with like-minded Puerto Ricans, with like-minded -- Because I didn’t even realize the issue of Puerto Rico, I think, until later. That the issue of them not being a United States territory. But we were aligning ourselves with like-minded people, mostly folks dealing with the socialist platform. Because the whole thing was, we have to move beyond racism and see that the economic system feeds racism in order to maintain divisiveness. So, there we were. It wasn’t a big deal, it was what it should be. 60 �JJ: So there was no -- [01:55:00] ’cause some people said, some people didn’t want it to happen, or something like that, or -- WR: I wasn’t aware of that. JJ: You weren’t aware of it, okay. WR: Right. And that’s not to say that it wasn’t, but it was not the marching order of how we should act. That doesn’t mean, I mean, you know, somebody might have seen you and said, “He’s ugly, I don’t like him.” Okay. That would have been personal. But in regards to the politics, this is where we should be. This is the natural place to be. JJ: Okay, all right. Any final thoughts? [And then we’re gonna?] -- WR: No, I’ve been thinking a lot. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Okay, I appreciate it. Very much, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: I’ve been thinking a lot. JJ: I appreciate it -- WR: I’m cool. END OF VIDEO FILE 61 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/34d54297ae0c7dbe6820fc6b67c7a868.mp4 f868a4f5e3df252390d0bcd91c11356b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Wanda Ross vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Ross_Wanda Title A name given to the resource Wanda Ross video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ross, Wanda Description An account of the resource Wanda Ross grew up in Chicago, the granddaughter of migrants from the southern United States. Shortly after she began college, she started attending political education classes taught by “Teach” of the Black Panther Party for Self Defense (BPP). She joined the BPP shortly thereafter. She was chief developer of the BPP’s Breakfast for Children Program. The BPP Breakfast Program was used as a model by other organizations, including the Young Lords and Young Patriots. Ms. Ross remains a community activist in Chicago, putting into practice her reminder that “saving the world” is a lifetime commitment. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Shell-Weiss, Melanie Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives